2813 

- 

Glen Maes, 4/8/98 

Grand Jury 

Page 1 to Page 247 

CONDENSED TRANSCRIPT AND CONCORDANCE 

PREPARED BY: 

OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 

Suite 490-North 

Washington, DC 20004 

Phone: 202-514-8688 

FAX: 202-514-8802 
BSA 

Page 1 

e_xITETI STATES ,IS:R;:T CYJRT - .^. 

_-. Z3R THE DISTRICT OF COLL+!B:A 

.:‘_ _ _ --____--____---_x 

.-, 

:4: 

;:::r. :e: 

.,. 101 

:-]G?XiC JdRY PRCCSSDINGS 

‘2~ 

.-. 

[g]_ _ - _ - - _ - - _ _ _ _ _ - - x 

:10: Grand Jury Room No. 3 

?4i 

'5' 

United States District Court 

for the Disrrlct of Columbia 

3rd b Constltutlon, N.W. 

Wash1noton. D.C. 20001 

Thursdav. A~rll 8, 1998 --, 

16; The testimony of GLEN M. MAE; SR: was ;aken in the 

17]presence of a fell quorum of Grand Jury 97-2, xmpaneled 

_9jon September 19, 1997, Commencing at 9:58 a.m., before: 

13; SOLOHOK WISENBERG 

201 VV.RY ANWE WIRTH 

2814 

Glen Maes. 416196 XMAX(1) 

:il 

22: 

Z3! 

241 

--1iAssociate Independent Counsel 

Offlce Of Independent Counsel 

1OOi Pennsylvania Avenue, Northwest 

Suite 490 North 

Washxp?on, D.C. 20004 

Page 2 

;;j 

: ~1 Whereupon, 

GLEN M. MAES SR. 

I:;was called as a witness and, after being first duly sworn by 

; 5 1 the_Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and tesbfied 

! 6 1 aS fOllOWS: 

!71 EXAMINATION 

I31 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

:4i Q Could vou state and soell vour name for the 

riojrecord. please. * 

. . 

A Yes. My name is Glen Maes. G-l-e-n; middle 

i !f 1 initial, A; M-a-e-s, Maes; senior. 

Q 

i ii 1 Sol Wtsenbe 

Senior. All right. Mr. Maes, my name is 

: : 5 1 counsel. An 2 

I’m an attorney with the independent 

A 

this IS my colleague, Mary Anne Wirth. 

::i: Hi. 

‘:7! Q She’s also an attorney for the Office of 

: : 9 2 Independent Counsel. 

::91 And these are the grand jurors and the Grand Jury 

: z 5 1 court reporter. 

121; A Okay. 

.^_I Q Before we get started, I’m going to tell ou a 

::; j little bit about our authority, and then read you your ng 3 ts 

: z 4 ; and responsibilities. 

--ii 

.--. This is a federal Grand Jury conducting an 

Page 4 

: 11 investigation of possible violations of federal criminal 

‘: I law. Do vou understand that? 

*A Yes. 

law,. other than a Class B or C misdemeanor 

2:: or infraction, in dealing with witnesses, potential 

22 !witnes$es, attorneys. o_!pthers concerning the civil 

-3 1 case 01 Jones versus Lllnton.” 

'4) 

IS] 

Do ru u;rI;,rstand what I just read to you? 

OlCStarr 

Page 5 

_- Q And again, if I didn’t mention it, this Grand Jury 

. 

- that’s an order from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 

i! ‘circuit. This Grand Jury was impaneled by a United States 

:; : District Court here in the District. Do you understand that? 

-:. 

.-. A Mm-hmm. 

: i Q 

._: 

You have to answer “/es” or “No.” 

iz: A Yes. 

Q Because when you say “Mm-hmm.” the record can’t 

: 5 j tell whether you’re saying “Yes ’ or “No.” 

:_-. .A._ A Okay. 

i... .*-. Q I’m now going to tell you a little bit about your 

‘1: : riQh!S and reeaansibi!i!ies. :. - 

._3- You ma refuse to answer any uestion if a 

: ; f truthful answer to r hat question would ten 

iIs:you. Do ye uncrcsmtand that? 

cd .I. 

to incnmmate 

::i: 

.,-- Q That’s what we call the privilege against 

i i 5 f self-incrimination. 

;1?: Anything you do say may be used against you by the 

:z:.Grand Jurv or in a later broceedina. Do YOU understand that? :_.: 

i-1. A Yes. - _ 

:,-- 

,--., Q You do not have a right to have an attorney 

:z;:rn here with you, but if you have ret&ed an attorney., 

::4 :the Grand Ju 

‘-<‘step outside t 

will permit you a reasonable op ortunrty to 

.--_ x e Grand Jury room to consult WI .P h counsel, 

Page 6 

[ : : if you so d;sireYetp you understand that? .^. 

,-, 

i3: Q 

i; : is that correct? 

And I understand you have an attorney here today; 

15: A Yes. 

i 5 

;-I Q Tell us who that is. 

: : 

A 

Q 

Joe Small and Stephen McNabb. 

All right. Now do you understand that you have to 

t “sj tell the truth; that when we ask you a question you can 

[ i o! either claim a privilege - like the privilege against 

: 1 I 1 self-incrimination, “I refuse to answer because it may 

: 1:: incriminate me” - or if we asked you something that 

; : 3 1 communications wrth your wife. 

involved 

[ 14 1 to answer that.” or “Communrca r 

ou coukl say, ‘I’m not going 

tons with my attorney, I m not 

: 151 orng to answer that,” but if you don’t - except on things 

[ 161 at you decide to claim a pnvile 

! 17 1 

r13!t t 

uesbon. you understand you to R 

e on, when we ask you a 

at correct? 

ave to tell the truth; is 

Cl91 A Correct. Yes, sir. 

!201 Q All right. If ou don’t tell the truth about what 

[z I! the law calls a material ma i er - which means an important 

i 22 1 matter - then that’s pe ‘ury and that’s a federal criminal 

;z~lstatute. Do you unders ? and that? 

!241 A Yes. 

[25! Q We are bound by an oath of secrecy - the grand 

Page 7 

[I ~‘urors. the court reporter, and myself, and my colleague. 

i-. r 7 I t hat means with certain well-recognrzed exceptions, we cannot 

I 3 1 go out and blab to the world what goes on here today. 

I 4 ! understand that? 

Do you 

$1 

A Yes. 

Q 

I 7 I of secrecv. 

You, on the other hand. are not bound by that oath 

Do vou understand that? 

-A Now Ido. 

[I51 Q We’re not recommendin 

i 16 1 recommending that you don’t do that. 4l 

that you do that. We’re not 

at’s strictly up to 

(17 1 you and ygr aftyyy. Do you understand? 

I181 

;191 Q Okay. Some of the exceptions to the oath of 

[ 20 I secrecy that binds us - an exception would - we have FBI 

1 z I 1 a ents who help us on this case. The 

~221~ 3, .at g”s_on.in the Grand Jury...The J 

re allowed to know 

re put on something 

r23icalla me 6(e) list. and they’re allowed to know what goes 

124 I on In the yndy$sy. Do you understand that? 

[251 

Page 1 to Page 7 
2815 

8sA --. Glen Maes. 418198 

Page 8 

-:. 

11; anybody 

Q Now, they also can’t go out and blab it to 

They’re also bound by an oath of secrecy. Do 

( 3 1 you unoeEiandYt;z.t? 

I41 

!5! Q If there’s a trial - if because of anything we do. 

: 6 1 there ends up being a trial of somebod 

;7 lwtiness at that trial, and 

, and you were to be a 

c 3 !sornethrng completely d x 

ou got up on Y he stand and said 

erent than what ou’re goin to say 

191 here today, then one of the lawyers at tha Y. tnal could 9 ake 

[:o]your Grand Jury transcript and could sa 

[I I 1 something different in front of the Gran dyV 

“Mr. Maes, you sad 

Jury.” That would 

i : ! that correct? 

Page 11 

: IZ 1 be an example where Grand Jury secrecy can be breached Do 

[I 3 I you undetsAtandYthh.t? 

[I41 

[151._>~ Q Another example would be with a court order. The 

[ i 6 1 rnoependeni counsei or any prosecuior can make an appiiczrhon 

117 1 to a court and say, “In this rnstance. we need there to be an 

(18 Iexception to the-rule.” Do you understand that? 

(191 A Yes, sir. 

!10] Q All right. There are different categories of 

121 lwitnesses who come in front of a Grand Jury. I’m going to 

[ zz 1 read you the definition of a target. 

A target as defined as. quote, “A person as 

i;: i to whom the prosecutor or the Grand Jury has substantial 

rz3levidence linkrng him or her to the commission of a crime, and 

Page 9 

: I Iwho. in thejud 

[zldefendant. 

ment of the prosecutor, is a putative 

en % quote. Putatrve. meaning assumed defendant. 

[31 Do you understand that definition? 

[41 A Yes. 

Q Okay. You are not a target. Do you 

Iz; understand that? 

171 A That’s good. Yes. 

Q 

itiwhose conduct is wrthin the scope of the Gran 

Okay. A subject is defined as, 

3 

uote “A person 

[ 10 1 investigation,” end quote. 

Jugs 

ill1 Do you understand that? 

ilZ1 A Yes. 

/ :: i Basically 

Q As you can tell, that’s a very broad definition. 

f 1 s 1 with our 

anybod 

investiga r 

whose conduct has something to do with 

Ion IS a subject. 

!16; So you are, as a technical matter, a subject. Do 

[ I 7 1 you undeTandY$f,t? 

ii91 

Q Those are the on 

~~~jDepartn?ent of Justice manual. 8 

two official categories in the 

owever. there’s an informal 

i ; 11 system that’s developed of target-subject-witness. 

[??I _L_ *.L_. And I don’t know_ if your_ attorney has t?lkecf.to you __.* 

123 1 apour mar. or II you’re - 

134 IwIth mat s N-u 

ieI me JUSI say, are you ramiiiar 

between wttness-target-subject? 

[?51 1 !& of right now, yes. 

Page 10 

191 

!91 

iLO 

Do you understand that - 

A0 !+ informal definition? 

illj A Yes. 

I :: i witness. 

Q All right. Wtihin that informal system, you’re a 

1:41 

DAM yo;erderstand that? 

[I51 Q Now, we cannot promise anybody that they’re going 

, . -. +n ha 3 “,*“ar, hr -II *ima l-t.. \,,... ,.nAan eal.4 hr.3 [,D,l” YT m nlr~_lr~~~I~“l aI& L8III.z. Y” ,“” “II”-zI~LcII#” ,,,a,: 

[I71 A Yes. 

Q It’s an ongoin 

I:iisomething that changes you 9 o a drfferent category. Do you 

investigation. We might find 

i 2 o 1 understand that? 

[211 A Yes. 

Q But with that exception, you are a witness right 

ii:inow. Do yp u;Fsstand that? 

[241 

[251 Q All right. You are here pursuant to subpoena; is 

Pcwl~ A fn Pal-m 13 

. -a- _ ._. -=’ ._ 

XMAXJI 

t2; A Yes. 

[31 Q Did your subpoena call for the production of 

[ 4 1 any documents? 

[51 A Nothing was requested by me, no. 

Q Okay. -Let me ask 

It]we ask. if you don’t understand it 

ou 

1; 

if any question that 

y all means ask us to 

I 8 I repeat it. because we want to make sure that there are no 

i 9 j misunderstandin s about the questions that we ask, okay? 

[lOI A Oflay. 

I111 Cl All rght. Are there questions you have about 

[ ~z]our authority or your rights and responsibilities as a 

[ 13 1 Grand Jury witness? 

[I41 A Not asof ri ht now. 

1151 ,,_, MR. WtSENBEf?G: Okay. If there are let us know, 

[ 161ana like i say, if there’s any quesiion. ine answer id which 

1171~0~ need to consutt with your attome 

[~a 1 allowed a reasonable opportunity to d 

about, you’ll be 

o so. 

f191 With that I’m 

[2Ol BY MS. WlRl%: 

oing to hand you over to Ms. Wirth. 

[211 Q Now, Mr. Maes, can you tell the Grand Jury howr old 

[221you are. 

[231 A 

(241 Q 

Yes. I’m 40 years old. 

And what is your occupation? 

1251 A United States Nave, active duty. 

___ 

Cl1 Q 

A 

Okay. And specifically, what is your assignment? 

i:iin the Navy. 

My assignment is I am a senior chief 

I’m rsonal steward to the President. 

.p” 

51 

etty officer 

ve 

[ 4 1 was iven that trt e with President Clinton. 

[6]wod!g in’the White House for PI years. 

I’ve worked 

15 Iwith rm direct1 for - since his residency. And I’ve been 

My - my duties include personal support to the 

Iii President, as in his guests, as in foods service, food 

[g~security. and travel support to the President. 

[lOI 0 

A 

How long have you been with the Navy? 

i :: 1 up to 21 this June. 

I’ve been with the Navy for over 20 years - coming 

1131 Q Okay. And how long - you said 

1 

ou’ve been 

[ 14 1 assigned to the Whrte House for 11 years. Wha have you done 

[lslthroughout the course of your time at the White House -what 

[16]typeS of jobs? 

A What I’m doing right now -when I first started 

I:iioff, two years - a littte over two years with President 

rlg]Reagan. I was a steward up there in the Oval Office, 

[zolworking directly for him. 

And then when President Bush took his presidency, I 

i::iassisted up there taking care of the high-level meetings in 

[231ine cabinei room,‘but sbii assisied in ihe Ovai Office, and 

[341also travel su art to President Bush. 

[251 An 8 he since day one of President Clinton, I’ve 

Page 13 

[ 1 lbeen working with him. 

Q Okay. And has your assignment with 

[:;President Clinton been any different than what it was 

[ 4 Iwith President Bush? 

A 

IziPresident is workin 

A little different, as in hours yes. The 

i 7 1 compared to the ot w 

longer hours and has’s bigger agenda 

er 

Q 

Presidents, yes. 

Ii;Oval Office, that’s been your stead 

Okay. But in terms of you assisting in the 

[ 10 IPresident Rea an’s time; is that ng .K 

assignment since 

t? 

A 9/e% and - and the travel support is the added 

I::lduties to it too. 

I131 h And the what? 

[141 A Travel support. 

[151 Q 

A 

Okay. And that’s been - 

ii6j 

m^r^..r^ . ..^ ._^..^1 .L--..-L-..I AL- . .._ -1-I . . ..*I_ D=ba”Ic wne; IIaY11 ,Ill”“yrw”t IlIt: WPWJ wrn 

[17]the President - 

1161 Q And that’s been - 

[I91 A - domestic and worldwide. 

Q Okay. And that’s been added with 

i:!;President Clinton? 

1221 A No. 

Q 

/::iPresident? 

Oh. When did you start to travel with the 

I251 A Since President Reagan’s side arrived at 

-___ 

O!CQk,;; 
BSA 

2816 

Glen Maes, 4/8/98 

Page 14 

;; 1 the White House. 

1 Q Okav. Now. vou mentioned hours and so on. What 

i 5 i days of the-week d6 you w&%? 

[iI A I work every da 

I worked with the President t !i 

if - if needed. There is times 

e first nine months while 

izihe was in office by myself, directly. And then I had a 

[ 7 1 coworker come in after that. 

But my hours are whatever the President works. 

iii he’s there 24 hours a day, I’m there 24 hours a day. 

If 

!101 Q Okay. Do you have a set work schedule, though, 

!ll]that - 

A Asofri htnowwe-mycoworker,we-he 

1 t: 1 normally comes in ea I? y - approximately 7 o’clodc in the 

i ;4 1 morning - and he’s there until anywhere from 3 o’dodc until 

: I 5 I the afternoon until 4:O0. 

16j And then I get in anywhere from between 

17 19 and 10 o’clock in the momin 

18 1 President leaves the Presiden P, 

and I’ll say until the 

leaves the Oval Office - 

131 Q 

201 A 

Okay. And that’s Mr. - 

- whatever time that is. 

211 Q Mr. Nelvis is your coworker? 

221 A Yes, Ba ani Nelvis. 

231 Q Okay. x nd you, esse$ially. have the same job as 

24 1 he does, e;cep+;?t your hours are different? 

251 

Page 15 Page 18 

Ill Q What about weekends? 

!21 A Weekends -we alternate every other weekend, so - 

[31 Q Do you woe both days? 

[41 

!51 

A When required, ryes.. 

Q 

A 

But what s your p~cal weekend? 

Typical weekend, dependlng on what the President’s 

j:jschedule is we - we get a daily schedule of tfte President. 

[e 1 We get a wkekl 

[ 91 of the Presiden r 

schedule. We also get a monthly schedule 

. 

i 1 o 1 that weekend. 

So we know what’s going on during 

So while he’s in office if it’s from 9 o’clock 

Ii: i in the morning - because he ha& a radio address and then 

: I 31 he has a meetin 

9 

afterwards - we may be in there until 

[ 14 13 or 4 o’clock in he afternoon. 

II51 Q Okay. Do you workeye 

!I61 A Only when we’re require 7 

weekend? 

Q Okay. Well, I’m asking you, typically, how often 

i :I: {do you work on a weekend - let’s sa 

i131 A It - it - it’s hard - it’s K 

in an average month? 

ard to say 

I 1 I out here. and you .have a .&air here (in$c?in ). And two 

[2 1 people in there, with Nelvls and I standq In t 1 at there, 

[311t’s tight already. And three people, there s no way. You 

[ 4 1 can’t do thr n-n&. 

Izithere coffee mu s 

171 A ‘8e! 

[ei Q Ok, 

[qlto ths 

[lOI 

7’ %?$t. And you mentioned a coffee maker. Are 

in there, too? 

;. coffee muas. 

ay. Now, &i&e is the pantry located in relation 

t Oval Office? 

A 

[ 111 atour, it’s - 

To the Oval Oft%. if you’ve been there for 

ou have the front of the office - the 

I I: I main office o f! the Oval Offtce - comina in. and it’s on 

il3 jthe right-hand side. 

_ 

1141 You have secu 

[I 5 I and then securii here, an ?iy 

between the main door, 

rdicatinqk 

then we’re right next to that 

1161 

nd then ere’s another door going into the dining 

i :z i room - the private dining room. 

0 

i:zl]which we’ll mark as 

All rigt. I’m goin&t;p;y_ou a map, 

rand Jury 

[ 2 1 I your initiali - dEk;vf, okay? 

1221 

izojbecause - 

Q Take the last month. How many times did you work 

;%: i in the lastyth on the weekend? 

1231 

i24j 

I251 AQ 

I worked two weekends out of that month. 

One da 

I worke 3 

or both days? 

one day. 

(11 

[?I 

:31 z . 

Page 16 

Okay. 

Ta,“d was on a Saturday. 

Main6 on Saturdays. 

Okay. And how rqany hours on the_weekend? 

[41 

!51 "0 

; 6 1 Generally, what are your nours wnen you come In-! 

L71 A For approximately eight hours.. 

!ei 

!9! 

Q Oka Starting when? 

A Sta x Ing at 8 o clock In the morning until 

: 1 o J about 4 o’clock in the afternoon. 

i iii Mr. 

Q Oka 

r 

. When you work on the weekends, does 

Nelvis work on he weekends or do you alternate? 

‘131 A We alternate. And there’s times, again. where it’s 

i 14 j hard to call it, because we travel. And you m’ ht = may 

c 1s 1 work three weekends in a row, or - so d a jus ‘p depends on 

: : 6 J how you’re working and what the schedule is to the President. 

;171 Q Okay. Now, tell the Grand Jury where in the 

: 13 1 White HOUI yo; work. 

:141 

:zo] Q 

!2?] A 

d&e do your activities center? 

: :z 1 primary. 

M main area for work is the oval panby. That’s 

Secon dy ary work, from there to Betty Currie - where 

:~3lshe’s at, with that section, because we keep updated, keep 

: 2 4 1 each other informed what’s goin 

:z 5 1 that we might hear, the Presiden 9 

on, any of the movements 

might go gotfing - on 

0lcstaK 

Page 17 

[ : ! and on. So we keep each other well informed of what the 

I 2 I President is doina. 

iji Plus, wk have a 

! 4 ! direct to the President. 

x 

& 

aging system, which just goes off 

ere’s 

IsjWhite 

only two of us in the 

ouse that carry this (indicating). That’s Nelvis 

I 6 J and myself. 

[71 And so we - we can actually roam anywhere in the 

[ 8 1 grounds and be respondin 

[sland 14 seconds on the hlg .3, 

to the President within a minute 

-the furthest part on the 

[ 17 1 maker. and plates and glassware, and then wrapping paper, 

rlslif needed. 

You kpow. that’s a very small, ve confined area. 

jiHi~~~~h:‘h~~Pi~r~h~~- than the size prthis desk 

i;;z:L: cee#ndicati$)? It that 0” desk ngh! here’ ‘I‘ 

Okay. The desk in the center IS the size of 

[:51 A It’s approximately. Yeah, the range may be coming 

_____ 

ii3j 

[z4 ~West Win 

[251 

____-.- __. _~_ 

Page 19 

(11 Q 

[zlwhere the ant 

Oh. you have a pen. Could ou mark on the map 

Al 1 ” 

IS. And take yqur time loo L Ing at it. 

I s - tt s actually incorrect in the one way, 

I:iwhat I see here. This actually comes out in the hallway 

L 5 1 here, so this extends out just a little bit where the 

16lpantry - 

I71 Q 

/g;So we 

A 

The pantry does? 

Yeah. It extends out from here (indicating). 

-the dining is flush with the doors here, which we 

[ 10 Ikeep that door ajar all the time. And then the rest of it 

I I I 1 goes by order of what that is. 

IElWest Win 

Q 

? 

Okay. Does this generally look like a map of the 

1141 %. Let’s see here. (Examining document.) Come out 

i I 5 I there, access, access, access, door, doe< door, door.- 

[lslyeah, this is ve close. 

Q akay. Can you mark with a “P” where you think the 

/ ti I pantry is in this diagram? 

[191 A 

Q 

I’ll put a “P” here. This is - 

f%ithe hallwav? 

Okay. And you said that that room extends out into 

i22i A It extends out in the hallway. 

[231 Q Okay. Where - 

A As an added addition to it we had a - another 

iflipantry was here, but this is an added addition (indication). 

._~___ 

Page 14 to Page 19 
2817 

asA Glen Maes. 428198 

Page 20 Page 23 

Q 

j f -this halhwa 

Okay. And is there a doorway that leads out into 

-*: x 

7 

Yes. You’ll have a door - which you have right 

iii here (indicating) - and there’s another door that goes in 

:z:the hallw ray - 

:i‘ Q Gkav I_: A -which is flush with the wall. 

;:: Q Okay. And which of those doors are normally 

[ 16: enecr. ana II pulls mar WJor open. atI” we II Know Lll(f 

[L-: President is walking back there. 

[:F: Cl Okay. You mean - you said this is a pressurized 

i:j-room. You mean the Oval Office? izrj A Right. 

[21’ 0 So the effect of o 

:~:9 o’ckxk in the Oval Oftice - if t/Z Oval Of-hce were a 

ning this door that’s at 

~‘jiClOck - 

[2:: 

,1C’ 

L--_ Aa Mm-hmm. the effect, you said, of opening that door is to 

Page 2i 

: : : swing pantry door open? 

:I’ A 

:-: Q 

Yes. It will ajar - it’s already - 

.-. 

A 

Is that done on purpose? 

;;:, - ajar. It’s us knowing where the President 

;5:1s at. 

:F-: Q No, I know. But is that done on purpose, that the 

Because when the door - because the door is \L#L_l X _I___ :_ :I ____.__ _._A:__ 1*1_ “““aI II OcJeS 15 II ueaws s~cll~n. II 5 

a vacuum cleaner and pulling + And you’re 

and then it clicks. You have metal - it’s 

Page 22 

! : : not wood to wood. It’s actually metal to metal hitting you 

i 2 : because of the latch on it. It’s a bigger latch system 

b 3 1 with a - with a doorknob on it. So what you actually hear 

:: 1 is click-ckck. and then you’ll know it’s - someone is going 

! 5 .- going in the back. 

!6: Q You hear a click? I-. L A We’ll hear it’s click es. 

15: MR. WISENBERG: AXright. 

i’-: BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q And does the door to our 

i : E ithe door from the Oval Oftice at 9 o’c r ock 4) 

antry move when he 

:I:‘ A Yes, it’ll - it’ll - like I said, it’ll vacuum 

: ; 3 1 it approximately three inches, four inches. 

:14: Q Oka So the door moves? 

.1 i‘ 

--_ 

:I&: 

A, Righr: 

Anrlvn,, hamr- 

:I-' B' M'~:"t~&jj&: 

Q Again, and the door that moves is the door - the 

i:ijpantry door-the door leadin 

::c:dining room, not the doors lea 

from the pantry to the 

I.,., 

.--. A %. w 

in 

No. No. Not into 

out into the hallway? 

e hallway, no. 

::“I Q It’s leadin to the d.ining room. 

:?j: P 

:z<; 

ty MJs”s@;r&# the dining room. 

.-,:. 

,--_ Q And when the President opens that door at 

--q-1 

: : : 9 o’clock. does he push the door out away from him, 

-I : or In towards him? 

A The door will come to rm So he’s inside the 

i; ‘Oval. pullin it into him rndrcatrn 

‘:‘ _-. c! Okay. A(lj right. 8 

)_ 

an you mark onthis diagram 

: 6 : - you mentioned a, bathroom a moment ago, the President’s 

: -. bathroom., Where IS th$t? You can mark tt with “PB.” for 

: : i “President; bathroom. 

:5‘ 

::?i 

Q riness complies.) TB.“. 

kay And you also rnantroned the study. Where 

.::,would that be on this diaoram? You can mark it with “S.’ 

f : 2 i for “Study.” 

‘13‘ A (Witness comolies.) 

114: Q 

..q,” 

And you menfioned a dining room. Can you put a 

.--1 DR” where the dining room is. 

. . .*6! A ~&tness rXmpiii5i.j 

.‘i‘ 

_- > 

::3: 2 lot:& no - I 

: : 3: here (indicatina). I was iust ii. 

uess this is the fireplace you had 

rnd of curious - 

-qn- .--I Q -Okay. . .^:. _--I A -what that was. 

---I: Q You can put a little “F there for “Fireplace.’ 

!!jjThere’s a fireplace located - 

:?4] A Ri 

:?s;of weird. Yeah, t I! 

ht. Right here (indicating). But this is kind 

at has to be the fireplace. 

Page 24 

!s that the only door to the study? 

i51 A Yes. 

.-1 Q Oka 

: : i that door at 9 o’clo dl, 

And from where you are in the pantry, if 

of the Oval Office were to open and 

: 3 i the President were to walk throuoh it - 

::i7j 

::?I % Mm-hmm. - when that door - opens, do you always look to 

:::!see whether he’s 

: :3]study, going into t a 

orng into the bathroom, going into the 

::c!that door o 

r 

ns? 

e dinrng room -what do you do when 

::51 When it opens, we’ll just check on him and - see, 

::61 It’s almost like a teamwork out here, because you have 

: 17 1 Secret Service osted in areas. 

:I81 Q km-hmm. 

:!?+I So what we do is try to keep them informed of 

:23 !whaPs goitg on. “The President is 

:21 ~“Okay. ,8 

oing to the back.” 

He may - if he goes outsi e, we have alarm 

:~lsystems. on and on. 

.__, >__,. _~..~ -_..-.- .L 

nno I oon I want IO ger inro me security stuff of 

i: 1 what the Secret Service does, but we keep them informed, just 

::jl like they keep us informed. “Hey, the President is moving 

Page 25 

11: out.” “Hey,, we 

; 2 I downtown. “Ojav. Great.” So we iust - it’s iust 

ot a movement.” “He’s going to go 

; 3 1 communications, one on one, with them. ’ 

IdI Q Okay. So if the President were to go through the 

: 5 ldoor at 9 o’clock and 

i 6 jwould tell the Secret !! 

o into the Presidents bathroom, you 

ervrce that? 

171 A No, not unless they request it, you know, “Where’s 

: 3 I- where’s the President of the Unrted States? and - 

-!zisee that? 

Q Okay. But if he did go in the bathroom, you would 

::?I A Yes. 

:I:! Q Okay. And you routinely do that - you look out 

r 13 1 when YOU hear that door ckck - 

i14j - 

:151 Aa Right. - and your door wiggles. You look out to see 

-.crwhnm ha'r n&mm Am-l i(,ka D,ar. -"+-*a 6,. I_ :r*r *I.- 

"way. ,l-wI" II LllG rlT~I"caIL 1=1= I" yv Ill," ,115 

i;T;gii?y: iz$ccse;,h:m do that, too? 

I191 

::91 0 And if the President were to go into the dining 

:: o 1 room, you~o~l;~~ee him do that, as well? 

.-> 

.- *I .-?1 _--. Q, And 

Y 

ou mentioned a moment that there’s just the 

::3jone door grgFeti. he study; IS that nght? 

:14j 

:25: Q Tell the Grand Jury what% in the study. What does 

Paae 20 to Paae 25 -*- -- --. -=- -- 
2818 

BSA Glen Maes, 4/E/98 

Page 28 

c : ; the study look like? 

i-> 

1 ji President, 

A The study is a personal working s ace for the 

if needed. But what he does, uses It P or 

[ 4 : relaxation. 

He has a chair in there - a rocking chair. He’s 

izigot a desk that was built for President Bush. President Bush 

[ 7 1 used the - that office space as a - as workin office 

[slspace which he probably about 40 percent o L L :a 

8, hrs ttme would 

____ AL- A__,. 

[9jsn oacx mere, 0 n me oesn up, and had aii of his books 

( 1 o 1 and pa erwork ad a computer here stereo system here 

tlll(indica rng and thats the wa he worked. 

LI p”Now’z used the &al Office as his main working 

[ :;i staff meetings goin on 

But with s ? 

-their hi h-level meetings. 

resident Clin on now, it’s mainly more of 

1::; his down time if he - relax want to go back there and rest 

[16ja little bit; he had a trip, he just got back, so he’s in the 

[ 17 1 rocking chair and relax. His books in there - 

[I31 Q 

A 

And that’s in the study? 

It’s in the study. His books - all kinds of books 

I:iiin there. Putters - he’s a big collector of golf because he 

tzllgolfs a lot. Putters and different golf balls in there, and 

tzz lall that. 

A lot of little trinket stuff in there. Pictures 

i::iall over. He - he really gets involved with the - he had 

tzslfamily photos in there, or people that he’s known and - you 

Page 27 

[ 11 know anywhere from Haiti with the Marines and all. So you 

, -. c-a .A, *r-c 4, .-sl,PI I;,‘rr p”r”lr~ m*m V.-z.. 

And then you have two -the other things I 

I:ididn’t - two windows at the back side (indicated), which 

[ 51 are permanently -the drape? is locked up, soru just 

[61can t unlock tt and just block 

Q 

up that way. An - 

Now, these are windows - you pointed to the I; idiagram when you were speaking. These are windows into 

[ 9 I the study? 

A These are two windows. This one right here - 

i:iithese are the two windows (indicating). 

Q What do you mean the draperies are locked up? What 

I::;does that mean? 

A They’re - you know, if you turn around - they’re 

I::ireal heavyzraperies. .a L ~~ ~~ 

I161 nnm-nmm. 

A And we’re - and it’s more for design 

I :i i else. And they’re pushed up, and they’re tied down. 

than anything 

[I91 0 Mm-hmm. 

A So - and they’re up hi 

9 

h. I mean, like 

I:!irne reachin them I can barely even ouch them. He’s 

~~216 foot 2 an 8 112. I’m fws-nine. He can actually - 

[231 robably want to do them, but then it’s a 

t 

ain - the 

124 I eavlness of that oushina them back an 8 lockina them back 

ijsjdown. But that’s there. - 

Page 28 Page 31 

else - there’s another chair for the 

en he has a a ing system. There’s a small 

ere. And that’s basica P ly 4, IS pnvate study. 

Okay. These windows - do they have shades? 

L-51 A No. 

[61 Q 

A 

The windows to the study. No? Are they - 

They’re big windows. It’s full length. And 

iii in the middle section if I’m standing UJ, I have to reach 

rnt,,n ,hir WI\, ~n.4 +ho idrh ic h-r- sn vn,, chnun +hir urinrlnu. ,,j”V .!“‘,“%a~, %.I.” Llll I_.WI I_ 11w*1, 

r~olup (rndrcabng). 

WI.” ,“Y I1IIV.l .,,,.a “.I,““.. 

Q So when you walk into the study, can you see 

I:iloutdoors throu h those windows? 

A gYes. You’re looking outside and what you’re 

i ::; looking is a private patio of the President arid the swimming 

t~slpools of the President. 

Does the President collect any 

$!xaminin+document.) 

S WIR Hallwa l? Hallway l? 

MR. WISENBERG: 

[ 4 lway down. 

&h. down here? Yeah, all the 

(51 BY MS. WtRTH: 

[61 171 

2 OlOly; Can you mark that - 

(‘1 

I81 

i:j 

g just’put “Hall-l” right there. 

lWi+nncr mmnlL.r 

Q Ipr~ai~~?h~~~~~“you’ve marked a hallway that 

i :Fi leads from the Oval Oftice at 9 o’bock into the area where 

[ 12 1 the study and the dining room is. and the President’s 

(131bathroom; is that right? 

[141 A Yes: 

Q All ri 

9 

ht. And what is this area here? And I’m 

~:~~marking an area tha leads off the Oval Oftice - 

You can almost name it, and he collects it. 

[:I1 Q Yeah. Butwhat - 

1221 A 

Q 

That’s why I laugh about it. 

ii:isee in this 

What types of things does he collect that you would 

area? 

I251 A Ball caps, T-shirts. Again, the President rarely 

i17j - 

[I81 

I:iithe Oval 

I211 

I221 

[231 

[241 

[251 

“a Yes. 

A 

- at 11 o’clock, if the Oval Office is - 

That’s a hallway, but it’s the front entrance to 

Office. 

Q Okay. Can you. mark that Walkway-P.” 

$ rtness complies.) 

kay 

(Aindicating). 

And can you mark this area here Walkway 

(Witness complies.) 

Page 29 

!I 1 uses this area. I mean that’s more of a collection - 

[?? 

13: 

Q 

A 

Use what - rarely uses - 

His private stud 

141 Q He rarelv uses I i? 

fi Ashin - is in working space 

r-l 

A So-what he does a lot of times he’ll have - 

ii Ilike, his ball caps will come in and there will be a I_:_____ X__---_- _L .- L:_’ - 

So a lot of stuff - it’s like a holding area 

I :<;for them. Plus, we keep the presidential d back 

[ 14 1 there - Buddy. And he s got a little mat ba % 

[I 5 1 there that he sleeps on and rests. 

[I61 Q In the study? 

11'1 A In the studv. 

il3i 

1191 

[201 

1211 

[221 

1231 

[243 

[251 

Q And - _ 

A Plus his toys and all that for the dog. 

Q Buddy’s toys? 

A Mm-hmm. 

Q Okay. Yes. 

A 

Q 

I should have said that then. huh? 

Does the President also collect buttons? 

A Oh, he’s a big - a big fan. I helped him out with 

Page 30 

[ 11 the button collection, and we sat down tq.ether: It was one 

rlrrlrrv urhnra ,..,a hsrl avarv)hinn rnrncd n,,, ,Cn 6h.c +e,hla _ ,i ,rq, . ..1”1” ..u I.PY W.“,.‘““Y ‘p’.sczY ““I l,RF ,,,,a L0”l.z - 

[ 3 1 this load of buttons. 

And he has a collection that the 

i: i cases. And they’re probabl 

[ 6 1 feet by two feet wide - K 

approximate & 

re in glass 

three and a hatf 

eat 

[7 1 from a button this bi 

one of these - and anywhere 

[ 8 1 to historicad buttit; 9 

down to b$tons this big (indicating), 

hat you can t touch. 

[91 

A I me&i those are specialized. But these buttons 

/ :Fi collections - there an ‘approximately four five six main 

I 12 1 big frames like this that’s in the main haltway &hen you 

r13lfirst walk in there. 

Q Oka 

ly 

. And this is the main hallway off the 

I:ZiOval Oft?? at 9 o’cock? 

-.---- .- .L- 

::76;the (indic& ). 

inerersme- ngnr ‘mL*’ nere, inis is 

Mf!! WtRTH: 

I:t;on the djagram 

Okay,. Sol, what is that hallway called 

- do you know. 

fZylSame th’n%iK?W~SE~~~~G: 

I just want to call it the 

Is this a blank one? 

MS. WIRTH: 

I::ithere. Go ahead. 

Yeah, it’s a blank one. We can move in 

MR. WISENBERG: I think it’s Walkway No. 2, 

I::; is what it’s identified as. Give us just a minute. 

.l” 

OlC-starr 

______ 

Page 28 to Page 31 
2819 

SSA Glen Maes, 418198 XMAXi6l 

Page 32 Page 35 

:11 Q Oka 

I_)j A The K 

Now, where is the button collection kept? 

iSI 

utton collection was kept in Hallway-l. 

Q Okay. 

A On both - I guess you would consider - 

i : i this is actually north. Is this true north, 

;;;south (indi$inN;_hmm, 

A So it would actually be in the north side. And 

[i{the south side - there’s two of them there. So four here. 

t~oltwo here (indicating) - 

1111 Q Oka So as you1121 A - w iy 

i13jup there. 

h smaller ones, and swords, and items 

Cl Okay. So as you walk out of the Oval ORice at 

[ :!,i !3~%lock. the @on collection would be on your left and 

;;;;arso on yoz ngnn; 

[I81 

[I91 i Ri ht. 

- in Hallway-l - in Hall-l. 

0 Ol?ay. Now, you mentioned ball caps and so on. 

I:!iThose are in the study? 

A 

IZiOval Office. 

It depends on what he wants to display in the 

[241 0 Mm-hmm. 

I251 A There’s times when he’ll get golf caps from a CEO 

“Betty.” (Wnness complies.) She actually sits - 

Bnef tnterru bon to proceedings.) 

%YMS. WlR%i: 

Q Okay. And - 

A Betty sits right here. The - 

1;; 

Q Okay. - 

A She’s actual1 on the south side of that room area. 

LB! Q Okay. And db you know this desk in the stud that 

[ 91 you mentired;;crrJ,t ago that was President Bush’s des X1101 

[Ill Q Does the President keep anythin 

B 

under that desk? 

1121 A There’s a trash can under there. 

i 13 jwhere he does have a bag of gifts. 

here’s times 

He mi ht flood the room 

114 lout. Like, durin 

[151tirne, because a! 9the grfts are coming~in. you know. and then 

Christmas time is. probab 9 y the toughest 

. . . [ 16 1 ne‘e pusn tnem aown or pusn arouna me room. so - 

[171 Q So he keeps a ba of gifts under the desk? 

[I81 A It’s not like - no, i?s not a normal thing, 

r1glbut - 

[201 Q But sometimes? 

[111 A - there are times when it overflows with 

rzlgifts, yes. 

1231 Q Okay. Does the President collect frogs? 

1241ever seen - is that something that he’s fond of - fi ures 

r25lof frogs, or anything about frogs - pictures of frogs s 

Page 33 

[ 1) from a company, to a little boy that 

9 

ive the President as a 

rzlas a gift. So - and plus, like, recen ly, the Denver 

[ 31 Broncos - you know he had a ball cap sitting there, and 

[ 4 1 it’s moved around different areas. And he decides what’s 

(5 1 displayed. That’s - 

sometimes give those 

Q Does he keep an kind of, like, bag or container of 

ii: jgifts in the stud that he frequen ly 

[I31 A {hat he gives aw!y?’ 

Ives away? 

I141 Q Yeah. 

rsonal gifts - more presidential pins, 

I:ziiterns like A that, Hehaspe, that he’ I grve out to people that might be 

[ 17lfriends. or~m~~hh;;es, “Hey, here’s a pin for you.’ 

[I81 

A And-it could be anything from a broach. to 

:::{a tie bar., or.something like this, to a pin, like 

; ;;I thus (rndrcahng). 

Q Mm-hmm. 

I231 A So it depends on what he wants io ive out. 

Q What about the hats and shirts an % all that stuff 

i::ithat he probably-does he get shirts, as well as hats? 

Page 34 

A These are more gifts that are iven to him. And 

I: iagain. if he wants to give them out, he gives w em out. 

Like ball caps - he might be on a trip he’ll have 

I:lthree for four ball caps. For instance, Martha’s \/ine ard 

[sland “Hey, Glen, want a ball cap?” “Thanks.” And I *x 

[6]baft cap. And Just little thin s like this. 

get’s 

[71 0 w 

A 

Okay. And e keeps those in his stud ? 

[El Not only his study. His study, to some 7 ~rnes In the 

[gldining room -which is rarely, but - and then also with 

1 lo]Betty Currie up in the - her office space. 

Because she - she kind of like is the coordinator 

Can you mark where Betty sits on 

Page 36 

Have you 

[II A Yeah, he has fr 

Ii]Figures? 

0 Yeah. What kin 7 s of frogs? Like pictures? 

s. 

A I’ve seen a African tree frog, I believe - a 

I:; little picture of one about yea big (indicating). 

161 Q Mm-hmm. 

A And the actual figurines, anywhere from rock frogs, 

Ii i to glass frogs to, fr 

[ 9 1 the painted ones “8, 

-frogs - real frogs, as in, you know, 

- s ellacked. 

So there’s been all kinds of them. But - in the 

~:~~Oval Office they’ve been there. And I don’t want to get 

[ 12 1 involved with his - his - 

1131 Q Mm-hmm. 

1141 A - privacv up in his mansion, but thev’re UD 

i15jthere. too. _ 

_ . 

And does he keep any on his desk in the 

i2ljthree months. - ” 

[221 9 Mm-hmm. 

[231 

[24 I- a little s&tie dog that moves around his desk. 

I mean, ne’s got medaiiions. He’s 0; ;rittie dog 

‘s 

[ 2 5 1 decides what’s out there. 

Page 37 

(11 Q Yeah. And how - 

[21 A And it’s hard to say - because I see the desk 

[ 3 1 every day, and he changes every day. So it could be there 

14 Ifrom, you know, three weeks to a month to - sometimes it’s 

(5 I- it’s gone the next day. 

I61 Q 

A 

So things rotate? 

I71 Thin s rotate. 

Q Yea 

Ii; his desk, though? 

# . Have you ever seen a figure of a frog on 

A I’ve seen - I brou 

i:!;frorn Puerto Rico and it was like 

ht a group in one time that - 

[ 12 1 behind his desk, and it was also in his 

was there. It was 

t13ldifferent frogs up there. tt was .ust a small -that 

[ 14 I I can remember, one was out o I 

I 15 1 was out ofztone. 

wood, the other one 

. _. The one ;hat was on his desk _ was it out of wo&, 

ti7blor out of stone? 

(181 A Now- 

[I91 0 

A 

If you remember. 

- you’re throwing a curve on me. I can’t - I 

$y;cant really recall that. 

I221 Q 

A 

How big about? 

I would stay approximately - you know, no more 

Ii:ithan a inch and a half. 

[251 MS. WIRTH: Okay. 

______ 

c?fCaan 
2820 

Bs* Glen Maes. 4/8/98 

Page 38 Page 41 

.-. BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Let me interru 

: G :make clear for the record tha P 

t for a second I just want to 

thus map, GM-1 - this is a 

:; ; mao or scheme of the - would it be the first floor of the 

. 

is:rnain 

A And all through that - well, not - all the 

stuff is in the hallway here. but there are items like 

;3;in there. 

i4: Q Where is that stuff washed? Is there a dishwasher 

r5;in there, or do ou - 

16! A !-Jo it’s real - if you look at the sink it looks 

[ 7! like a little kid’s sink. 

[8] high 

191 

(indicating 

$ 

It’s about yea. big,and about this 

It comes up - a tmy kttie srnk. 

o that s where YOU would wash - 

15:We’st Win or - 

Ii: %, This would be the first floor. You have a basement 

;T:level, or a round floor too. 

!3: Okay. This was - 

Then you have a second floor, where the main office 

c :‘ii spaces are for the rest of the staff. 

(11; Q 0kayh;eThis was blank, in the sense that - I mean, 

ri7lthere are roam hum rs mentroned and Qval Qffice - there’s ; ;; j p&. -ti;;ii’n.y -d;;t youn-~sti;e~rrt-i;a;ldprinting on this 

[ 14 : pa rc! rcutar map; IS that correct? 

r15: 

[I61 

gy $iSrs$r;rrinting? 

II:‘ Q You’re the only person who’s written on it? 

;ia’ A Yes. 

_ 

;191 BY MR. WlSENBERG: 

120: Q You’re the only person who has written on this 

t~::particular map, GM-l; is that correct? 

;22; A Right. 

123: Q AIrright. With the exception of whoever wrote 

;~4;“Gf&l” on the Grand Jury Exhibit, correct? 

[25: A Right. 

Page 39 

i’ 1 Q All right. I’m goin to ask you to step outside 

12 jfor .ust two or three minutes, 

r3:an d an 2 get you. Okay? 

we’ll come right back out 

i4: - - A Oki 

151 MR. WISENBERG: May the witness be excused? 

i6: FOREPERSON: Yes. 

[:! (A break was taken from lo:32 a.m. until 

L7. 

[lOI MR. WISENBERG: Let the record reflect the witness 

[ iI 1 has reentered the Grand Jury room. Madams Foreperson, do we 

/___ r I 7 7 have _~_ a _ auorumo ~__._. 

iljj FOf 

[:4; MR. WtSENB Iljlprese-+ i.. **s P_.r..* 11.1 

1’6; 

[:?]sbll under oath. 

115: THE WITNESS: Okay. Yes. 

c-c?! BY MS. WlRTH: 

?EPERSON: Yes, we do. 

ERG: Are there any unauthorized persons 

111 111 ,I,+= ulclllu tiuI room? 

FOREPERSO?G: No, there are not. Mr. Maes. you are 

L-d, 

if: i before 

Q Oka . 

the 

Mr. Maes you mentioned a few minutes ago - 

break - r hat when this door at 9 o’clock to the 

[:2:Oval office opens, and the President walks through, that you 

[:3:-you’re in the pant 

~24 9 : he goes; i;thaty;$t 

and you normally check to see where 

(25: 

Page 40 

. . 

.-._ Q 

: I : tn his work? 

Okay. And does Mr. Nelvis do the same thing 

:3: A Not as much. And I believe the reason for it is 

! 4 : that I - I’ve been with him since day one,, and been with him 

y 5-that close from the first nine months of hts presidency. And 

; 6 i to me. my job is to take of the Oval Office of the President 

: 7 : of the Unrted States. And that’s - that’s ma. personally. 

;5: Q Okay. All right. Are you ever in the ant with 

: 9: Mr. Nelvis? You’ve both been in there at the same r rme. 7 

i:s: A Usually not the same time. A lot a times - 

[ i: : because there’s one chair there. We had no chairs in the 

[lo; 

[ll! Aa Right. - dishes, plates, mugs, et cetera? 

1,” L -- > 

f13! t %$u do that or does somebody else do that? 

1141 A We do it directly. 

I151 Q Okay. 

[16i A No one else handles that. 

I iii in 

Q 

addition 

All right. Does the President also collect mugs. 

r:glhats and - 

to the other items that you mentioned - the 

DOI A Everything. 

[211 Q Evervthina? 

1221 A Yes.. - 

r23j 0 Okay. And does he kee 

114 1 in the pantry, or somewhere else, or bo P 

the muqs that he collects 

h places 

[25! A It depends on how busy we get. There’s times when 

Page 42 

[I Iwe’ll get multiple mugs. I mean, he’ll look at this one 

(2 1 Irke. ‘Oh, that s a nice mu 

il?j 

i::ifWr. Nelvis 

[:slmpming. 

[ I 6 ] mrght come in at 7 o’clock in the morning - 

Cl71 A Right because - 

Cl81 Q 

A 

- IS that right? 

- of where he lives. 

/:zifor it. He lives in Fort Washin ton 

That’s the only real reason 

I: 11 Force Base. 

I live in Bolling Air 

It takes me abou 9 11 ‘minutes to get into work, 

t~z~v~ce him maybe between 18 and 21 minutes to get into work. 

Q 

I : : ! later in the day? 

Okay. So you then, by the same token, would stay 

[?51 A Right. 

Page 43 

Q And you mentioned earlier that you would stay until 

I:ithe President leaves; is that right? 

[31 A Right. 

[41 Q I know that it’s not a fixed time, but generally, 

[ 5 1 in an average work week - 

r 

ou 

r6ltown 

know, when the President IS in 

-when do you genera ly leave? 

[7i A A 

[ 8 1 time now is abou 9 7:45 at night. And then there’s times when 

ain, it depends on his schedule, but his average 

rglhe’ll be at 1 - 1 o’dock in the morning, depending what’s 

tlolgoing on throu hout the world. 

[iii leaves 

hours - the way it works is when he 

ce it takes me anywhere from 30 to 

[13145 minutes to secure the OvaI ~ffce. 

And that’s not onl the Oval Office. That’s the 

1: : i cabinet room, the Rooseve Iy Room - which is this room here 

[is](indicating). So we got to make sure - the tours come in 

t17jthere - rt s all pnvate tours. So the 

sure that it is proper. x, 

come in that area, 

en I bring you in, 

be able to look at that and be, “Thus IS the 

I211 I won’t have a Coke can sitting here or a mess on 

rzzlthe carpet. I’llmake sure it’s squared away prior to the 

12 3 1 tour statttn 

[24jto 10 o’clo& at night. 

And those usually start at 8 o’dock at night 

[251 0 I see. And you would stay throughout that time? 

OlCStarr Page 38-e* 
2821 

DP. Glen Mae% MS8 

Page 44 

A Throu 

-t untrl I was comfortab P e that KS proper in showing he 

hout that trme. until its corn 

P 

lete - 

.I Oval Office. 

0 

:= 

Okay. Now, 

waiting to be called upon by ? 

enerally - you know, when you’re 

he 

:: -do you wad in the 

A 

pant 

President for some task?- 

._ There’s r3 rmes where II be I? the pant 

or do you po somewhere e;and 

:: I go over and see Betty and sit down. I’ll srt down rn t e 

: : .-IA* b.rrb ,k,3rm ,I.?,,~ I,,, +cl,L- +n hc.r snrl co- hnur ,hinnc 

- w,,,.z, “a- LIlG15 y*um,,,. LPI.. L” IIrl, .a.,” 0-w II”.. .,,,.‘S(_ 

:-z-coming in right away. 

Q Okay. If you had to say what your general work 

t?ilstation is, though, where you wait - you know, when you’re 

Page 45 

:I-waiting for; you know, waiting to - 

i-- The oantrv I-. 

rz- a The ‘dint+ 

.~. 

!:- ii: A Right. _ 

Q 

i ; : time there? 

And you spend -would you say most of your 

!‘- A 

: : if 

I would say, if you look at the percentages - 

&jJ 

ou want to look.at it that way, I would say probably 

[I:: 

percentQof th;;;Te. 

[11: A Fo percent would be if, a ain. go.ing down and 

;;~;~$~somethrnq. ?yhere s Fsrbv, wrth t!e President 

now, I m alkm when es in he office, see. 

r;i:There’s two different hangs. you know - out of office. 

!;s.in OffiCe. 

lici If he’s out of office, I might be upstairs in 

[ :- :tJw Old Executive Office Building. In our office space, 

i : E ‘or down in the basement, getting my cargo ready for a trip, 

ilPiifneeded. 

[2!: And then if we hear the President is coming over, 

:z::we go let Secret Service know. You’ll hit one of the pagers, 

!::-and I’ll ive them a call, “Hey, what’s up?” Because I know 

12:.he’s ou ? “He , Glen. Yeah, he’s coming over in about ten 

: ;i : minutes. ” “Ol?ay.” Then I’ll - I’ll know and proceed on out 

;:s:to the Oval Office. 

Page 46 

Q 

A 

Okay. Is there a telephone in the pantry? 

Yes, there is. 

Q Okav. And what’s the number of that telephone - 

i 1: the phone number there? 

15: A It’s actual1 unlisted now. We’ve had other phone 

r;.calls in there. So I don’t I! 

i I: number. 

now rf I can aive YOU that phone 

I don’t - 

_ . 

!P- Q Okay. Well, the next time we have a break - 

‘2. 

._. Check - check with m lawyer? 

!?f:it. veah. 

; 

- rf you can check wit K your lawyer about 

;._: - t--. A Oka 

113: MS. WIRTH: Oka 

i::: BY MR. WISENBE& 

.I:- L-- Q 

1:L.: A 

Has it been changed recently? 

I would sa within a month time frame. 

11‘: BY MS. WIRTX 

[iE’ Q Okay. When you say you’ve gotten phone calls in 

::h-there. what do you mean? 

in‘:‘ L A 

i:::of mine. 

It could be my wife, my kids. It could be a friend 

[ZI. Q 

A 

Do ou know why it was changed? 

;zi: Jus Y because of oncoming calls - people wanting to 

;z::talk to you. 

125: Q Too many personal calls? 

Page 47 

never seen - you know, to me personally, have 

::61l seen this mug? No. 

::71 Q Okay. 

::?I A 

: 1 glwith 

But to the places that he has gone to, and dealing 

Starbucks. Starbucks alwavs - you know. because we have 

::alStarbucks in our facility down inour dining room We 

:z I 1 actually carry Starbucks down there. 

-‘,I 0 Okay. All rightie. Okay. How well would you say 

i;lyou know the President? 

:241 A As in personally - 

:251 Q Yes, personal. 

Page 48 

Ill A or as in work-related. 

iz1 0 Personal. 

i:i know I can tell 

Personally? Very close because he turns - you 

ou this: He met my wife and he talked to 

;51m 

[6]tO r d Mrs. Clm on, you know, “I see more of your husband than 

whe durin A. F Christmas - his first Christmas - and he 

!7]l do my wife.” That’s how close. 

Is1 And again places in Arkansas that I’ve 

[ 91 been to - I’ve been to Hope, I’ve been in Hot Springs, 

::olseen his past. 

jg!jjust constantly going, that I turn around and don? want to 

: 11 bring things up, except for maybe sports or maybe something 

Page 49 

rzlwith golf. 

For me telling him - you know, I’m - I’m goin 

i:igo in there and. ‘I broke my finger yesterday,” no I don a 

to 

i51-- I don’t want to do that because that’s taking his’time up, 

j 6 lof what he’s doing with his peo le. 

And plus, his - he’s P ocussed -when he’s 

ji jfocussed. I know that. See another thing peopk don’t 

i 91 understand is that I’m with him, I know hrs’actions - you 

: :ol know, when you turn and 

:: 11 I know where to be and w II 

et a tight jaw, to his mannerisms. 

ere 

1:: jgoing on ti 

not to be. And if things are 

ht at the time, I move away. 

.I31 8 Okay. But sometimes you’ve engaged in sports 

i:gjchitchat or - - 

-151 

‘161 Aa thechat- stuff like that? 

_ _ 
2822 

196 Glen Maes, 4/8/98 

__I 

_ 

Page 50 

’ i at vou like, ‘Who is this auy?” 

:I : -_ ’ --‘And it got - after about two months. it ot to 

jithat point where he and I were able to intera c? And after 

! J Ithat. I can walk - “Hey. Hey, Glen” - and sit there and 

[s!keep talkin 

[6!care of it. I* 9so it - 

you know, “Give me that.” “Yes, sir, I’ll take 

Q How is your relationship with him different from 

iii Mr. Nelvis’ relationship with him? 

A I guess more casual talk and being around him 

,i,‘imore. That’s all. And its not like I want to be like, 

rlllooh. he’s the President of the United States. j see people 

r:zldo that all the time -want to 

? 

et next to him. 

And to me, it’s just Ike, What do I got to do to 

I :: i make yourjob easier?” is what I try to do. *____ ___.._ 

“And if qou A . ..^A. 3” k.^,,“. I’..” “A”” +,-, ,.,nk [15]uJnl al”“,,” anu wu,n L_ IIVUIJ, I III yyt, L” ““mm 2, and !‘R 

(16jgoing to make surerour job is done ngh?, and make sure 

[ 17 1 you’re comfortable. 

I :“,I Mr. 

Q Have you worked with President Clinton longer than 

Nelvis has? 

A Yes. I - like I said, the first 9 months, 

I:i; I worked my myself, averaging 81 hours a week with 

[ 22 1 the President. 

[?31 Q And whatI241 A His work is seven days a week in his first - first 

r 7 c I nine mnnthc ufkilm he \uar in nffirp L_>,““‘U I,,“.,.,,~ ..,*,,- ..” ..“_ ,,. _..._. P.@_ua!!v the first six ,’ -.-- 

XwAX(9) 

Page 53 

.-. A I’m. like, with dates - 

._ Q 

j: presidents - 

Had Mr. Nelvis been a steward for any prevrous 

:: 

_;: 

,- Aa !+“, In the see same - way that you are? 

I 6 A And it - I don’t know if you - how much you want 

!-it0 get involved in this, about our .ob, you know. You know, 

: 5 : do you want to o into detail on d? 

ij- Q hell. what I want to know is. had he ever done the 

[ :i ijob beforefr a;{,President - 

[>. 

: No 

-that you know of? 

t*-_ 

(14: a ix: 

(‘51 A 

r;G;just to gjve 

CPP We a tmmh nne He’s hpnn un there But i-v, .._ _ .--=.. -..-. . ._ _ _.__” _r . .._._. 

;;;;;zsdz rnsr .i 

ou a brief idea, he was an outside person, I 

e person. And that s how we established what 

Page 51 

[ 11 months, and then after that it slowed down to where he was 

[z 1 out of work between 830 and 9 o’clock at night,, and 

[ 3 1 59 I s seven days a week. And that - I thought that was It, 

etting 

[ 4 lyou know. 

151 Q 

[6jor not? 

Was Mr. Nelvis a steward during that period, 

A During that time Mr. Nelvis was working in the 

IiiQ!d Executive Qt%ce Ruijdino. He was dealing with our 

i 4; logistics, purchasing food from the outside. A ain we,, 

[ loIdeal with food security to the White House, to 9 he President 

I I I land the First Ladv. So these items were - he was like the 

Page 54 

[::us in that area, but we would actually 

1:: PresiF(ent, even though he’d cook the 9 ood. ““Here’s the 

o in and serve the 

r3:$ate,. ‘Thank you for the 

[4: resident and back out. T f? 

late.” Thanks. Serve the 

at’s how our relationship is. 

15: So then, when he came into that position - 

[ 6: meaning, the Oval Office - with me, I showed him all 

[7 :the ins and outs of it - how to personally take care 

f3;of him. 

19: BY MR. WlSENBERG: 

113: IIT‘ 

AQ ;E_once you did that. he wasn’t cooking anymore? 

tion toward the 

i24iWe’re oin to bring another guy up there.” 

[?Sl 80 tf?at’s when he came up - because I was a trip 

Page 52 

i 7 1 team there. 

is: BY MR. WISENBERG: 

(9: Q Who’s got the higher rade? 

[IO1 A He does. He’s an E- B and I’m an E-8. 

<--. il! 1 BY MS. WIRTH: 

I171 Q --When did he come in to join you as steward? 

A Approximately the beginning of September - 

i:::end of August/the beginning of September. I believe 

ilsjitwas- - 

[I61 Q 

A 

Which year? 

117i That was the first year the President was 

iisjin office. 

1191 Q Oka So ‘92? 

[?Ol A Nine Y -two. - 

1211 MR. WIS&BERG: Ninety-three. 

(“1 BY MS. WIRTH~ 

i-2; Q Ninl 

_ _ 

A Nin~t$%% 

Q Excuse me. Ninety-three. 

OlCStarr 

MR. WiSENBERG: Okay. 

BDY MS. WIRTH: 

You men!iz??r’ little while a 

<to Betty Currie at her des 3, 

o that occasionally, 

? 

istantlv 

. _- ..-.. 

; ; ; j you’d go a? speze; 

116; 

Q Yes 

i :z j relationshi 

,. c. 

witk F 

P 

rh. D&cribe for the Grand Jury your 

. . I 

___.- _____ ~._. 

Page 55 

[I: I don’t know how involved you want to get with it, 

f:-bui .~. we!re - 

[3: 

14: 

[5: 

IE’ 

AQ Did you talk to her - 

- that close. 

all lot of time? 

AQ Constantlv 

i71 Q 

A 

And you &end a fair amount of time at 

Yes. If I call her - if for some reason 

Iz$-re President came in the Qval office off the record 1 

rlo:rneaning that there was no schedule, and he came in - 

[ 11 ;and I’d get informed, I’d give her a call nght away,, 

rl::“Hey, Be 

rl3!on? ‘We V , he has a meeting for about 20 25 minu es 

the President is in.” Well, what’s gorn 

9 

[ 14; his security advisor.” “Okay. I said, ‘Wel!, there’s no 

[ 15 1 need. I’ll - I’ll - I’ll watch out for you. But rf he 

[ 16:stays longer, I’ll give ou a call back: 

c17: So that’show t K e relabonshro IS. 

Q Oka 

I:;\ her desk, talking to K 

And so you spend a fair amount 

er? 

of time at 

i2Oi A 

~21: I 

Not - not a whole - you know, there’s times where 

rzz:l I 

o in there when, say, the President is not in office. 

go up there and spend some time wrth.her there. 

If the President is in office, again. it - it 

I::idepends on his schedule, but normally, I’ll be back in the 

[z 3: pantry. Because we have a intercom system, where she just 

her desk? 

) with 

Page 50 to Page 55 
2823 

Glen Maes, 4/8/98 xuAxf1ol 

Page 56 

: 

r -rhere, “!iey, e 

icks u the hone, hits the intercom, and bang, I’m right 

len ou know, the First Lady needs some hot 

3 -tea.” ‘Yes. sir. I’ll nn rt into her.” 

.r ; Q 

\ ~ 

E : relationshi 

Okay. an you describe for the Grand Jury your 

fl 

with Mr. Nelvis. 

Relationshi with him? I’ve been with him 

--: 11 years I arrived - he’s g een there since Carters 

i I : days, Again, he’s ahva s been senior to me. I was always 

: ): a junror gy on staff. de had ~prqximate&le4npeople 

:: : : that were rrect support to the resident. 

::I : President Rea an was shot the 

! 1: : that was calle 8 r 

developed this team 

Presrdenbal Wa ch. r-7. And with Nelvis and I as 

i I; I their baker during Reagan’s days. I__~_____ ___, I- ___ _ ______ - 

r.:-havemaybe- .--. 

11:: BY MR. WlSENBERG: 

,_. 

_..-. Q Fresh bread? 

[:I: A - fresh bread, herbs, or - so it wouldn’t be bad, 

; I 2 : compared to like when Nel was there cooking away. 

So with him and I going - because of berng a 

ii! i baker, and him doing the marn entrees, we went to Camp David 

Page 57 

:: : a lot. So that’s where our relationship really got tight, 

I -where he relied on me. I relied on him. 

who are his friends in the White House? /__. A 

t f f f with the 14 of us. 

Again. that main team that I was talking about - 

There’s only five of us left of that main 

I : I : team. It would be Fred Sanchez - Godofredo Sanchez. it’s 

[ 1: : been Manolito Baustista - they call him Liio - Lito and 

i : 5 : Fred. And then Joven Fama. who they call him Joe. And we’re 

[I E: the last of the main 

[:-- Cl And Et s the five - 

ople so - 

r::i 

[::;they’re. L 

-we always keep communication, because the 

I :s:valets are upstairs in the residence. They’re the ones that 

~1: :are takin care of the Presidents clothes. We know what 

y - they turn around and give us a +I, ‘:Hey, 

; ;f y&d yoij heor ihe Pr&&ni is going to _ _ ,z,..* II\, omf 

::: : going to golf. Get his clubs ready, get 

w, rean. nes” 

IS lrmo krt ready. 

,- ,- i--_ So the communications between the five of us is 

!T:: always there. But there’s only one valet normally upstairs 

: : ‘in those two. One - they’ll work day on-day off. 

Page 58 

.^. And then Joe Fama is a floater, which - again, if 

i? ‘they need an assistant upstairs, they can do that. If we 

: r .need someone to serve with us - sa 

: I had a - the President in there had a i, 

I’m by myself, and we 

rlateral meeting - 

: 6: well, we’ll bring another person in there help serve. 

: -. “Thanks,” hi h fwe “Have a 

-:- - BQ hm. WISENB&G: 

ood day,” and they’re gone. 

‘2. 

[it: Q Who is - how do you spell his name - Joven Fama? 

A J-o-v-e-n. 

[::: Q F-a-m-a? 

A F-a-m-a. Fama. 

BY MS. WIRTH: :_ 1-4‘ 

;,:- 

2 And what’s hisLob? What does he do? 

,,ic inh _ ha’c + a _ likn 9 +.in erk.e.rl.~ls~ /--. a I.., ,“Y ~ Ilr .z unr - Ilr\C a “q.8 ~CIITUUI~I. I‘;’ L-s ‘d Mm-hmm. 

[1-- A So again, his ‘ob is not accessed - 24-hour 

L : I : access, like we have for the b val Office between Nelvis and 

! : +: myself. We’re the only two that have 24-hour access to the 

r:::OvalOffice. 

Page 56 to Page 61 

Page 59 

II. 

..1 Q Oka When you were talkin 

:-I relationship with Be \ y Cume earlier - some P 

about your 

rmes she does 

: 3: things for you. and sometimes you do things for her - is 

i 4 1 that the way - the professional way - is that the way 

[ s 1 it works? 

A 

/76jdown to South Africa. She was alon 

Yeah. There’s times I go on a trip - say I was 

13 Iwould get a little trinket. I’d find a ca B 

with me but nohally, I 

somewhere and 

[ 91 bring a little something back from Africa. So its that kind 

[lolof deal. 

i :k; be another stop of the way. Because normally when the 

And there’s times where she goes out. She might 

[ 13 1 President travels, I do a majority of the large events for 

114 lthe President, like summits -the Vancouver Summit, when he 

._____ 

rlslhaawtsz. 

I just - the main thing in Africa was Capetown. 

i :7”; Now I’m turning around to go to Germany. The 

!~s]to Birmingham to do the big summit - the G-7 t g 

want me to go 

ere. But 

L I91 that’s how we - we just, you know, get something, bring it 

!zolback, and vice versa. 

[Ill Q But sometimes while you’re at work, you’ll do 

I 2: I things for Betty, or she’ll do things for you? 

1231 A Mm-hmm. Right. 

Q All ri 

fI:iYou travel with the B 

ht. Lets talk about trips for a moment. 

resident. you said? 

Page 60 

[II A Right. 

121 Q How often on an average a year do you go out of 

r3ltown with the President? 

A 

Ilithe functions are. Normally what I do when I travel - I’m 

It depends on what the functions are and how big 

[61-- I’m a senior trip lead. NeNis is one, too. We’re the 

[ 7 ltwo sensor tnp leads nflht now. Joe Fama was one, too, but 

, ^. *r I,. I^“_^1 ._.......I^ :_ __:.. :_I_ :_ .L^ -_L_A_.l:__ ___ _I laj!r= IIV IV~I tin LI~YCID. “15 ~rkwt JUU 15 IIIC: awauuung pan OT 

[slit. and th&s - that takes care of him because of the way 

[ I o 1 the President is traveling. 

But what happens is to maintain the Oval Office 

/ :: i if someone is there that means Nelvis will be back or I will’ 

[I 31 be back while the President is in office. 

I t: 1 on a Saturda 

Like I - when the President was going to come in 

and we were going to Capetown. So I was 

[ 161 leaving that # ay. They turn around and redo m whole 

[ 17 1 schedulin 

[ 18 ]be In the 8 

to get down there, just so that I MU Y d spend - 

val Office with him, and I’d leave on Sunday. 

!I91 Q Mm-hmm. 

i201 A And it ‘ust ave me one da 

I 2 I 1 there to getlhings se I up 9 or the Presiden ty 

short getting down 

! :: 1 out prior to President gorng out. 

Because we go 

(231 Normally. if It’s a domestic trip, it’s like 

[ 24 J anywhere from two days to a day and a half prior to the 

[3s] President going on that trip, to an overseas trip, up to four 

Page 61 

I I ~davs orior to the President aoina ..,~~,. r 

[21 Q What trips h%e’you done in the last six months? 

[31 A Now, you’re throwing a - 

141 Q 

A 

To the best of your memory. 

Best of my memory. Oka 

Izi Domestically I was in Las Alamos, New 

I was in Vancouver. 

[7 1 Albuquerque: New Mexico. 

KA exrco, and 

I81 Cl And the President’s recent trip to Africa? 

[91 A And to Capetown and Senegal, which was the last 

[ lo 1 stop - Dakar. Sene al. 

1111 Q Mm-fmm. Was Nelvis on the Africa trip, as well? 

[I21 A Yes. 

[I31 Q What part did he do? 

I141 A I believe - offhand - I know he had Johannesburg, .._.^“-I I I.-,: ^.._ L- L--I I.3 -.-...-__ j I>IQIIU I vrwve fvz rkw Porswana and, i think, Ghana. 

I161 Q Were you together, or - 

!171 A No,we- 

[I81 - do you go at separate time? 

[I91 A0 - we never travel - because again, we’re senior 

[zoltrip leads, and the possibilities are probably slrm to none 

[ 2 11 that we’ll ever travel together. 

[22l Cl Mm-hmm. 

1231 A Never. 

i241 Q Okay. What about vacations? Do you go on vacation 

izslwith the President - 

--__ 

OKStarr 
2824 

Glen Maes, 418198 

Page 62 

A Yes. 

2 Yes. 

-when he goes? 

Q What’s the last vacation you did? 

A The last vacation was. I went down to 

:Hilton Head, South Carolma. Nelvis did St. Thomas. The 

: ear before that. we were reversed. I did St. Thomas, he had 

,“ikon Hea$ 

A 

Okay. And last summer? 

Last summer, I was in Martha’s Vineyard with the 

: President. I did the second hatf. Again, Nelvis. being a 

-trip lead, he did the first half. I relieved him the second 

: half in Martha’s Vineyard. 

Q Okay. Where did you stay when you were in 

i Martha’s Vineyard? 

A We -what we had was a rented house. There was 

Page 65 

.I’ 

_ , Q 

A 

Right. 

‘_I1 And we’d have to drive and commute into Eat area. 

;;;Aaain. its all cOmmunicatlons between Secret Service ana us. 

: 4 : making sure that we can do our job, penetrate into the hocse. 

[ 5: take care of rt. and back out without disrupting their 

[ 6: privacy as much as we could. 

0 Okay. But ou were while the -well, for 

iii breakfast, lunch dinner - r hat sort of thing? 

I9j A 

Q 

If needed. tight. 

And that was while the President was in the house 

IiPiat that time. right? 

Ii?! A Aoarn. we would oreset - if he felt - 

i ij i luncheon-wise, we’d bring with siuff preset in the 

[ 14 jrefrigerator for them, clean everything up, leave, and 

i 15 1 then if he needed assistance, we’d go back. 

~~~~First Lad 

;;sjand we dy 

And. like. the drnner party, we would - the 

said “Lets do a dinner.’ So we did a dinner, 

id all the service to it. 

: I1 approximately one. two, three - four of us in the house. 

Q And what were your duties at Martha’s Vineyard? 

‘fi:What types of things did you do? 

A We ran it We ran the show there. Meanina. the 

:!! i residence, we would - 

Q 

if : President’s residence. 

When JOU say “the residence” - this is the 

. ,: A The private property residence, where he was 

iI;jstaying at, on the ranch. 

Page 63 Page 66 

.-. 0 

A 

When you say ran it, what do you mean? 

_. It was a ranch. He had a house from a person that 

:!:lent it to him to stay there durin 

3, 

his time frame. And we’d 

; :actually go up there and c&an t 

I: morning,. when available 

e residence. Meaning, every 

- we would 

: 6. the Presrdent and the First Lady and 8 

rve as much privacy to 

helsea. 

-; We would into the residence, cleaning from - it’s 

: 5 i household cleaning. I mean, from top to bottom. Anywhere 

->:from beach towels. to towels, to getting things set up, 

:I:: limo kits. 

And our team would come in there - the group 

: ii j of people we had in the house. Everybody would slam in there 

: :::and 

: 1: :two l! 

et it clean. And it might take us an hour and a half, 

ours, or less, and then back out. 

:lJi And then making sure that they were fed. And then 

:: 6: if there are any outside events - meanin that he went to a 

::-:schoolyard to do an event out there - we 9, I, I’d have my team 

::r:go out there and make sure the President was taken -taken 

::>:care of - as in bevera es. anything foodwrse. And then, if 

1-z : they are weren’t avarla .% le. then I would go out and take care 

::::0f It. ._, 

.--_ 11 ne went boating, i wouid go out. So - 

‘-2. Q Did you serve the President when he was in the 

iii : house where he was sta 

A Yes, we X rd. There -we had a dinner party out 

ing? 

[I j be there every meal and - and serve them directly, no. 

i:; 

Q 

A 

But you were there when the Presrdent was there. 

[41 Q 

[ 5 1 he was thy? 

gt?$. And Nelvis’ role was basically the same when 

[6i It was identical, ri ht. 

Q Okay. What telep 9, ones did you use from 

Ii 1 Martha’s Vineyard when you made - did you make any 

[ 91 personal calls from Martha’s Vineyard? 

A Yes. What we have is we work with White House 

I :y; Communications Agency. I don’t know if you heard of them. 

11: 1 Their acron 

[I31 d” 

is WACA. 

Mmhmm. 

A And with WACA what we do is we have a - what the 

i it i call a drop line. It’s just a telephone that we have direct 

[I 6 1 access, and seven-digit dialing, if want to call back to D.C. 

[ 171 Or if we want to make a personal call, we can make that and 

Page 64 

:::there. We set the dinner 

:I :our staff went in there an 8 

arty up. We - and again, just 

served. Not even the Presidents 

.3 : personal staff were allowed in there. 

.:: 0 Okay. 

A _L_. _ L- ___:_ .&__.I_ I_... _I___ .._ ___ r..__ rnarsnow- 

: i’when he travels and he 

agarn, mars now crose we are. even 

does a vacabon, there’s only our 

--:group that oes in there. 

I& not like his personal aide will walk in there 

: ;:and say, ‘Well, let me see the President.” No. He’ll turn 

: : :. around and hand us the documents, and we go directly to 

: 1: : the President. 

.- ,. A No. We had a 

if;imile and a quarter away from R. 

rivate house, which is probably a 

rm. 

!?9j So that’s the one time when we’d actual1 

r 

be in the 

[:o]room with them and serve them directly. But the o her tnnes 

[:I Iwhen they were there, :If the 

LX 1 take care of it It was l$e. 

wanted something done, we would 

$en. can you take of this 

rz3:for me?” “ay”“,;k;amB,Or, Do this.’ “Yes, ma’am.” 

1141 

(251 A But # 7 

s not lrke constant service, like we have to 

Page 67 

! 11 at the time. 

121 Q So if vou wanted to make a oersonal call. 

i 3j would you use - did-you ever use the phone in the house. 

[ 4 1 where you stay:&? 

[51 A re5. 

161 Q 

[7]was just a - 

Okay. And that’s not a WACA line; that 

[RI A No, they’re all WACA lines. 

[9! 0 Oh, they- 

[IO1 A They’re all WACA lines. 

[Ill _) A Q Okaz you - 

I:;iphone, but I - 

We td have a phone in there that was a house 

fl41 Q Yes. 

I151 A - but I - me. personally, I never used it. 

I161 Q Okay. 

A But again we have a -what the 

1 :l isealed dial number - a number to call. And tha r 

call we have 

number we 

[ 19 1 get access to WACA and call from there on out. So we had - 

Q Okay. So there was a WACA line even in the ho1 

/z y i where you stayed? 

[?21 A Yes. 

[231 0 Okay. 

A As in - and the big thing for that is because we 

I:zineed direct access to the President any time of the day, 

Jse 

Page 62 to Page 67 
2825 

_-. 

Page 68 

Glen Maes, 419199 xM*xllzl 

Page 71 

::,nighttojuzresgnd: 

._: kav All nc-:. Did you know Monica Lewinsky? 

:1: 

. .-. A Yes.1 did. - 

Q Okay. Can ycu tell the Grand Jury when you first 

; s; met her or became aware of ner. 

A I met her whre she was an intern. What we did 

: 4 i is - again, the pantry area were we’re at, she’d walk b 

; 0 lthe oantrv. she was an intern. and she’d stopped by an J say 

: si hello. And basically, that was very casual back and forth. 

: i o 1 We’d see her through the haway. 

“1’ 

i IZ joff meetin 

A young girl, pretty And that’s how we started 

. . 7’ 

_--_ 8 

her. 

Okay. When you say “we.” who do you mean - you 

::4land - 

:15i A Nelvis. 

:I61 Q Mm-hmm. 

::7j A Again, that overlap when he’s there and I’m there, 

.: 9 i it was like in the afternoon, and she’d walk by there and 

;:9lsay hi. 

i:yithe hallwa 

Q 

r;- 

Okay. WhenJou say you used to see her walking in 

which hallway 

i221 Hallway-l. 

:Ii31 0 Walkway-l? 

[24J A Or walkway. fm sorry. 

;151 Q Do you agree with me that that’s Walkway-l - 

Page 69 

:11 

;2j 

AQ Walkway-l, yes. 

- on the diagram. QKay. And do you remember when 

: 3 1 you first started to see her? What year? 

i41 A Offhand. no. . -1 

:51 Q But she’- 

!6! A I mean, it’s -when she was working back in here 

i7 j (indicating when - 

i91 ti And, when you say “back in here” - 

i91 A - in the chief of staffs - 

i!Ol are you pointing to Room - 

:ill 2 it Room 111. 

:iZ] Q Who’sinRoomll? 

::3: A The chief of staffs office space. 

:;41 Q And who was that back them? 

I’51 A I believe Leon Panetta. 

Q 

ii;iRoorn 111 - 

Okay. So she worked back in the area of 

i?3] 

Aa fzight. at the time that you first met? And she was an 

!i zi intern. you said at that time? 

::i! A ki ht. 

:“I L-c Q O!a And she used to walk in Walkway-l you said? 

[?3] A Righ!. And there were - see this whole area - 

~34 1 Walkway-l, Walkway-2. and even this area 

::5jagain. this IS an exposure area to the Oval &co. 

rndrcabng) - 

Page 70 

A ain the doors are shut here, security is - 

i: i Secret 

:3j 

Sg ervrce .* here, Secret Service there, there 

(iSnd&atinq): 

o Its no like anybody having access. So when we 

i z; see someone in the hallway. ‘Hey how are you doing?” And 

: 6 1 then, “Hey, how are you do@” And then keep on 

:; ]walkrng through. 

!P! Q Okay. And - 

And there was times where she would - and the 

Right. And adually, it would have been Walkway-J. 

Page 66 to Page 73 

;: Yes. 

._ 

j:. her walkin 

Q 

; 

? 

Yeah. And where would you be when you woukl see 

Were you at the pantry, or somewhere else? 

:: The pantry. 1. might be standing right here where 

; 5: the “P” is a& in th&F;ry nght here. 

‘6’ 

L”. 

[-. 

rc: 

A 

Q 

I’d see her going through there. 

Okav. And “P” in Walkwav-1. And how often would 

;9:you see her? i 

A It would depend on how - how busy she was. There 

I ipjwas times where she’d have to probably - I really didn’t 

: ; 2 1 know her whole job, but there was times when she had to walk 

::j:documents. She had maybe some paperwork in her hands and 

Page 72 

[I: budget crisis? _ ..- 

1:; A” ;::;j”: 

14‘ Q 

i 9; that time? 

Do you remember anything about where she was at 

A Offhand I think at the time. she was in the 

i ti East Wing workin I believe she was in the East Wing. 

[s j And I’m not sure I .3. it was - I don’t think it’s legislative 

rgjaffairs. It might be domestic policy. But she was working 

[ 1 o 1 in one of the groups out there. 

0 Okay. Now..were ou aware that at some point, her 

i if j job chang? froRy b$ing an Intern r o something else? 

r13: 

114’ 0 Where did she end UP workina - do YOU know? 

A 

Q 

That I know of, in the’East Wriig. . 

Okay. Do you know what office? 

A That s - I can’t recall that. 

iiei 

g %%nd if I was to ick one of them, it would 

I :z i probably be domestic policy. 

[Zl] Q But you’re just gues!ingj 

But t at’s ust - 

I221 A Just guessrn 

[23j Q Okay. And B Id you continue to see her when she got 

I 2 4 1 her oermanent iob? . 

1Z5! A Yes 

Page 73 

[Ii 

I:: 

131 

Q 

A 

Okay. Where would you see her? 

Again, in the same area - the same hallway. 

Q In this Walkwav-l? .-, 

141 A Right. _ 

[5: Q How often? Same amount of time? 

A Oh, less often. I didn’t see her that oflen coming 

I!;through. Because you’re talking - from what you see here 

[ 8 j then F;ou have the mansion - the presidential mansion. Then 

[ 9 ]over ere IS the East Wing. So that’s - that’s a good - 

t ~o]pretty good distance to walk back and forth. 

Q Okay. All right. And you said that she was 

i:f jfriendly. Did she establish a friendship with either you 

]13]or Nelvis - 

A 

or both of you? 

To me, she - her friendship was more toward Netvis 

I:!ithan it was to me. To me, it was just an a uaintance and 

[ 16]talking casually. There was times where - “1 

[17jbe there, and she’d ‘ust start tatkin 

hat he might not 

[ le]you,dorng?” And ?-I ey, xo,u going P’ otravel again?” And just, 

“Hey, Glen. How are 

^_._^ II.. :..a* ^^^..^! ,“!_ !;kp *L=, ,154 ] “dsdralty, ,“JL baD”cI 8 .“I,. *..._ ..I”._ 

1201 Q And! 

i2liwas closer - 

ehen YOU say that her relationship with Netvis 

A 

in what way was it closer? 

The 

It:lthan what she wou Y d see me. Again then with my -with me 

would - she would see him personally more 

[;4 1 and what I do is not the same everything that Nelvis does. 

j29]To me, I got other things going on, and making sure that 

_ 

OlCStan 
ESA Glen Maes, 418198 

Page 74 Page 77 

.- Agarn I guess - just we weren’t as personal. 

-_ Q Okay. 

.:: A But a ain we talked all the time, when possible. 

Q And 30 you remember some of the thongs that you 

j ;j talked to her about? 

.-> A Some stuff about travel. There was times where 

- 1 with tisvelina .___ . . . _._.-. ..=. 

.._, 0 

: :< j President? 

And these are trips that you took with the 

_ 

iay. 

.14: A 

.:5: Q 

Right. 

Did she ever discuss the President with you or 

i : 6 j asking youAquestions about the President?, 

.._. There was times where shed turn around and I 

:I 2 :“Glen how is the President doin 

if i j today?’ You know, basically tha 8- 

7” I said, “Oh, he’s great 

s d. .^_ 

i! i ! eople 

Again, I don’t, like, get into conversations with 

‘P 

about the President and - I just try to keep away 

:::j rom that. You know, “How is he doin 7” .^_ -11 Q Did she ever ask you i? he was in, or if he 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q What hallwav? You said “the halhvav.’ 

2826 

Page 75 

: : because evervbodv has a schedule. So there wouldn’t be a 

iz jquestion like that, no. 

:3: Q You don’t remember any questions like that? 

:i; A No. 

.=i Q Now, you said she had more of a personal 

ii:relationship with Nelvrs than with ou. 

: : 1 that? What kinds of things - or w K 

Why do you say 

at - 

.-~ j ! 

A What brought that on? 

0 What about their relationship was different from 

::: 1 yours with her?’ 

. . 1 A There was times where she’d ask specifically, 

f f f ] ‘Where’s Nel at?” 

.--_ Q Where’s what? 

._q: A Where’s Nel. 

‘. i’ .--1 Q She asked who? 

:IE] A His first name is Ba ani but everybody calls him 

:: - 1 Nel. So you ask an dite House where - Who’s 

2 : NnP” thev would te x 

body in the 

___ vou who Nel is. If vou tell - . .._.. ____, ..-_.- .-.. __ _... _ ._. ._ 

‘:j; Q But who was she asking’: you? 

A Asking for him. - _ .-J, .^. 

.--_ Q Okay. .^^. A And then there’s times she would call u on 

j :;: the phone and talk, “He 

: : is Nel there?” I says & he jus?stepped out. He’ll icy’ 

what’s oing on Monica?” 

i! 5: back rn a little bit.” “Okay: I’ll give him a call back 

Page 76 

1. later.” “Okay.” Click. And that’s it. 

A Mm-hmm. 

; 0 Or she’d be in the haltway, “Is Nel around?” “No, 

. he’s not right now. He’s - he’s downstairs in the mess. 

: ; : You can probably catch him down there.” 

: ; Q So she’d ask specifically for him? 

._ A Yeah. 

:: Q How often did you pick up the phone and it was her 

i.voice on the phone? ^ 

- - A 

:::mean. it - 

Again, it could have been once a week. I 

^. 

i 5 i after that? 

Q Was this durina the time that she was an intern and 

I : A Yes. 

li Q 

- -. A 

rD:Dy. After that, as well? 

- Q And did you ever see her talking to Nelvis? -2. --. A Mm-hmm. 

--. Q Okay. And did you ever hear the kinds of things 

- - .that they talked about? --. ^. A Just kidding around. Again, shopping, to kind of 

!: i personal thin s - like, you know “How is the family doing?” 

:- that kind o --. B stuff. So it wasn’t jike - I don’t know 

1; : where youzant to go with this one, but it was lust - 

-:- IX-i vnaa PVP~ hear her talk tn NPIVIC ahmrt 

--. _ -... >_” . .._. . . .._. .._. ._... ._ .._..._ ____. 

A The Haliway:l. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q $alkEaX-1 ? 

A I Ile .Ya,lway-:? Ai;b - 

Page 78 

,-. 

_-_ Q They -well, they’re different. Hallway-l on is 

::: here, Walkway-l is the - 

13; A I’m sorry. Walkway-l. 

[:: Q Mm-hmm. 

A The Secret Service would be posted out there, 

i ;‘so a lot of times if he’s in there talking I’ll come 

I- j back and talk to’secret Service, “Hey, what trip you going 

[ 5 : on next?” on and on. And so - 

$0: Q Okay. To our knowledge, did Nelvis ever socialize 

1 is jwith Monica outside the 

!?1: A 

~1:: have a 

I knew the were su posed - they were going to 

P 

tite Hou;? 

1 :j: that rea I 

iua or do somet rng toget er, and I don’t know if 

came down, you know. But as in going out, like 

[I:‘- , kind ofytike a date or something like that, no. 

!?I Q Okay. Did you ever see Monica outside 

i 16; the White House? 

11-T A I seen her on a trt 

; 13 j she was with her boss, That’s w f 

once. That was in Spain. And 

[I ?:thd Pentagon at the time. 

en she was. I believei in 

[ 7 2 : summit out there. 

I was in Ma&id,~Spain for a 

121: I saw her, because she was with her boss in the 

[z::;same haltwa The President’s -the area where the 

r-5: holding the 3 resident was an another level down furt t7 

were 

er 

~2: :away. I turned around and saw her, and she goes, “Hey, 

I z 5: Glen, how are doing?” “Hey, Monica, how you doing?” 

Page 79 

1:: And we just - a little conversation like that. 

!: :And she did say, you know, “How is the President doing?” I 

! 3 ; said, ‘The President is great.” And I even asked her, I 

[J : says, “Do 

An dy 

ou want to see the President?” She goes, “No.” 

then the following day I saw her again and we 

i 2 i talked conversation. I asked her again if she wanted to see 

(7 :the President, and she said no. 

Q 

I “gi President? 

Why did you ask her if she wanted to see the 

(12: A Because., like, in the hallway she’d say hi 

[ : : :t_o him. And if - again, rf you’re going to see the 

[ II : President. there’s two 

t 13jsee him: A) hallway; EF 

laces where you’re going to 

) at his office. Those are 

: 14 : the two areas, if you’re going to catch the - 

? 

o 

[ 15 : up to the President or say hi to the Presiden 

(16: MS. WIRTH: 

[I;: BY MR. WISENBE&: 

Are ou talking - 

[l?: Q What hallway? 

[iFI: A Oh, I’m sorry again. 

t20: BY MS. WIRTH: 

12:: Q That’s all ri 

A Walkway. R 

ht. Try to -try and use the - 

;:&ettys oftice. 

alkway - one of the walkways, or 

r24: 0 Okat And when you were asking her, ‘Do you want 

rqc,tn the Preeirlrnt “=..a! &tj vn,, rn~z,n hv that7 _ hat vn,, ,_>.-- . ..- . .__.__ .. . . ,-- . .._“.. “, . .._.. . ..-. ,-- 

d,Cstarr ._~ _. .__ _________~___ 

Page 74 to Page 79 
q SA Glen Maes, 4/8/98 XILUW 

Page 80 

: ; !would bnn her in to say - 

r-- w Just come in and - 

:3: 

14: 

- hello to hrm? 

A0 - Say hello to the President, yes 

/;; 

Q Mm-hmm. 

A And she - I’ve never traveled with her before. 

17 IThat was the first time I’ve seen her travel. Again, we 

[slatways talked about travel here and there. 

:,‘i 

And then, I said, Well, it’s an opportun’ 

ou know.” And she - 

8 

she was all the way from ?? t e Unrted 

11; tates, and she - she knew the President. Bring her in 

.1zland have her meet the President. And she refused to do it. 

1 T I She - not refuse. but. she - ‘No. that’s okav.” And that 

ii; jwas the end of the conversation.~ 

I:51 BY MR. WTSENBERG: 

[I61 0 This was on the trip? 

A Right. And the President didn’t even know. 

i :i ididn’t even know she was there. Because I was right there. 

He 

; 141 I was - I set the President’s holding room up with our - 

[zolwith my staff, and then we took care of the outside events, 

1: 11 which was in this big conference center r a hu e conference 

[zzlcenter. A ain. there’s multiple levels to rt. 

[:3lthe Press .8 

An 8 then 

ent was on the upper level into the mam 

~24lconference area. 

I251 

Page 81 

jij P” LIE \II”DT”. PI 111GJ. “lr\lll. 

0 Now. when you sa 

[:;describe her relationship wdh the 

she knew the President - 

b resrdent. 

A Again. with -with staff 

t: j wanted to get close to the President. 

ou could see how staff 

&ell there’s the 

[ 61 President of the United States.” They want’ to walk up, be 

r7lshoulder to shoulder with him, sa 

18 1 hand, maybe even get a photo o ? 

hi to him, maybe shake his 

the President. 

A lot of staff do that. And she just hap 

:zibe one of the staff the same way wanting to do t 

11 ,wn,, rn~~lrl CPO nnnnb’c rw%-m~‘with il 

PI” 

ned to 

at. And 

;;;,- --a- S~-ssF;k-~g’,-~‘,‘~~.~t~~~~~~ like an 

13lacquaintance. Like, ‘Oh ere,s 

I d IMonica?” And then - 

iIijh&w it was, too. 

anjt ha: s x ;o~%e!%vo%u t%%’ 

Just that the 

I :; 1 there she was talking o Betty, and the President walks in. 

[1elAgain, tike I talk about 

r 

- there’s times when she’d walk in 

ifts and stuff. Walk in, “Oh, how 

rlslyou dorng?” and talk to 3, er bnefly. And then back to his 

~2~1~office space. 

,?I ! a--, Cl Are YOU talkino about the President? 

1221 A Yes.. - 

1231 Q 

A 

Okay. Have you seen the President speak to Monica? 

1241 

[35idoing?” And - 

Yes. Just like. again, casual talk, “How is she 

Page 82 

_ 

Q Okay. Can you tell us, as best you can, on what 

I:;occasions you remember the President speaking to Monica, and 

[ 3 1 where that took lace. 

A 

I: 1 something 

\Rell I mean, for me to pick out a date or 

like that? 

Q No, just -just the number of times as best you 

i76ican and places where that happened. 

::;a week 

A I mean, if you’re - if we get into how many times 

he would talk to her, and he would see her - 

Q Well,, whatever - whatever frame of reference works 

i:yifor you. A? weN:lkrng about numerous bmes? 

1121 

il3j Q Okay. 

A He’s just too bus 

i::{the world it would be numerous r. 

for that. There’s no way in 

imes. It just right time - 

:161you know, right place. right time. That’s all it is. 

[17I Q Mm-hmm. 

tie Happens to waiic into Betty% office. You know, 

1 :“,i if you’re ta%ng about an average, maybe once a month, if 

[ :o! you’re, you know, looking at an average. Maybe twice a 

:z;lmonth. But - 

I221 Q 

12 3 1 us instances. 

Okay. What times do you remember? Give 

(241 A I would say during Christmas time frame, toward the 

i 3 5 i end of all this, you know L last year - 

Page 83 

;:: Q Nmety-seven7 

i2: A Nmety-seven. I would say I saw her twice. &am, 

[ 3; because of, I guess, the distance - bemg in the Pentagon 

i: ! and coming out 

[ 5 1 something 

- there was - now, that’s them saying hi or 

like that. 

Now. for Betty - her coming out and meeting 

176jyou know, it was on more occasions with Betty. 

Bet?? 

[8i 

[9i E 

R 

ople 

ti% she would not only see Betty but there s 

in the East Wng that were her fnends. People down 

I:: 1 ere were her friends (Indicating). And then with us. 

So it’s not like her coming into one area just to 

Ii:ido one specific thing. She would turn around and see all 

~14 lthese other people. And if, right place at the right trme. 

[~slthe President ha pened to walk out and say hi to them, 

[ 16j basically, that’s ip 

Q 

and then she was gone. 

Let’s talk about the time when she worked in z-e 

I:iiWhite Hour. efihrthEin intern, or as a permanent employes 

[191 

1201 MR. WISENBERG: 

i21jarea, can I cla 

Can I - before vou ao to tha: Tew 

[I?1 

MS~~ggyy~ah, ' - 

,231 BY MR. WISENBERG: .--1 

Q You said - I want to make sure I understand. ? I 

I::; understood you correctly, you saw her two times interfacing 

Page 84 

r 7 7with Ika D*ariAan+ in ITnrmmhnr V-8 I mnntinnarl _ 

~,!“l,.l ,*,r I Ir.al”+,lL 111 y.a4.‘IIYII. I”” Ills,ll,IVll.?Y - 

[>I 

I31 

; %proximately. 

~4 1 your words. 

at s like them saying hi, I think was 

[51 A Ri ht 

[61 Q Ol?ay. So you recall approximately two times r, 

[ 7 1 December of ‘97 .where you saw her exchanging words with ti 

18 1 President -A Monrca Lewmsky? 

I91 

r101 Q %%&)t to say “Yes” or “No.” 

illj .A 

Ill! Q 

11311 mean, w?re 

1141 

il5j 

[I61 

iii 

r[:i;rnap, right? 

1191 A 

,201 Q 

yes. - - 

Oka 

did tg. 

And what else do you remember abotr? hose? 

ose exchanges occur, to begin with? 

In Betty’s office. 

Okay. And - 

I should sa Ms. Curries office. 

Okay. An J you’ve already marked Betty on ~a;7 

correct. 

.--, For where her desk is. correct? 

1211 A Yes. 

[??I Q 

[ 23 1 two instances? 

And what all do you remember, then, about those 

A One of them I remember - again I’m saying twce 

/:!;out of the month. I’m just - out of the Qecembe; month. 

Page 85 

[ 1 IThat I can remember once was when she walked in - she was m 

~2 1 Betty's off~ce. talking to her. He walks out. His - he had 

,3 1 some aifts riaht there that he was lookina at - his personal 

i4 jgitts fr6m the ift unit. 

i : ; How’s 

An B she was. there. “Oh, how are you doing, Monica? 

- how’s the famrl~.” and all, talkin 

r71”0h, great. great, great. talk, talk, talk. %, 

kke that. And, 

nd then he 

is jgoesback ifi the6 and making phone calls. 

And I remember the second time coming out - and 

riiil’rn not sure exact1 

~11 lshe came in and s X 

the date and eve 

e came to see Be % 

hing like that, but 

(12lwith her and was holdin the ift. 

, and she had a gift 

I131 And I says, “l-?ey. w%at’s up Monica?” And at 

[ 14 1 that time there was nothin 

r15lPresident was what we cal?hrs -%s private time. Meanina. 

goin on schedule-wise. The 

ilsjall phone calls,, paperwork. and all that oing on. 

[171 So I m srt@g back in the ba ct? comer here, where -

. .-_ ._11:__ ..-.. L i8 1 Iwas rerirng you - cre -‘s office. And she W&KS in and 

tlslshe’s talking to Betty.%d - and she was going to’give a 

[zolgift to the President, which was an object wra 

And then the President steps out o 

~::~Qffrce. He sees Monica. He 

P[ t

ed up. 

e Oval 

~331 his gifts there 

- again, he looks at his - 

Then “3, 

ht away. He’s lookin 

e looks at her and +! ey,” and then brings 

15:; her in the Oval Office They were in there maybe eight 

Page 80 to Page 85 

2829 

Glen Maes. 418198 XMAXll6I 

Page 92 

1 the desk and not opening it up. 

0 Do you know whether re ever opened it up? 

“C 

A No. _ 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Do you know what the grft was? 

A No. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q 

: like a book? 

But you said it looked kite a book -was shaped 

A To me, that’s - again. U’s rectangular shape, and 

j to me, it looked like a book. - 

0 Did she leave with a gift? 

A 

Q 

No. Definitely not. 

Okay. When she was @kin to ou on the way out 

i about her job and so on, what, tf anythr zd sic tell you? 

A Just that she was ,busi$h;;;rwj;;othat she’s 

“traveling. I mean, again, everythrng 

:travelina. because it related - that related that way, with 

t I <: her andi talking. 

. ..<. Again, with Nelvis, I don’t know the relationships 

i E if between them. But, to me, It was mom toward travelrng, and 

::;:our bosses - how we are taking .care of our boss. 

.-;- _--. Q 

:_ ,. A 

k;i;his was her job at the Pentagon? 

.-1. 

is’: a Di’d she ever tell you whether she was 

Page 93 

:: : unhappy tpre? ,^. She never reallv told me. And then she was realtv 

13 iexcited about itr.She-enoyed fhe t%$ling part of it, but _ 

; f ; we never really et Into tc, at conversabon. 

0 #re two visits in December - you said the second 

ii:one was the one you thou ht was on a weekend. 

__: A I - I know t 9, at- that visit was there. I know 

: 3 : that visit. 

-a. Now, the first one - all I can remember was 

ii < i November, December, they were - we were kind of busy, 

: :: : because we had the summit goin on and then we went - you 

r :t i know. we had Bosnia going on - %e cause I was in the Bosnra 

::3jwith the President. - - 

11;: So - and everything was, like. cl/eking 

: 15: (indicating). And I can remember It was twice In December, 

::s:just - jus offhand. 

,._. Q Okay. What time of day were the visits, if 

i I I i you remember? 

‘. j- A The one visit - ofthand. I would say bet@eel’~I) 

if 5 i and 1 o’clock. Between 1l:OO and 1 :OO. 

.-. 

.--. Q That’s the first one? ._^. 

,--. BY MR. WISENBERG: 

,-:- 

.--. 0 Which one? 

._ ,_ 

,--_ A That’s the second one. 

--z- 

.--_ Q Okay. 

Page 95 

- I had a list - 

A I believe it was after Christmas. 

Q That’s the one - is it fair to say that’s the one 

1: 2 lyou’re more - 

i : 1! A Yes. .._/ .--1 - you’re more certain in your mind - 

;13: 

:14, .--. 

{ Yes. 

- occurred on a weekend? 

::5: A Yes. 

[l&j Q Oka On first one- 

,.-I- A But XI ere’s a - there’s a slim possibility it 

if z iwasn’t. I don’t have the date. But again, I was talking 

;:g:about it bein 

::r:Christmas. 9 

quiet. You know, it’s - here it is, 

ust -we just had Christmas. Hardly 

;:::any of the staff was around. 

;9-. 

.--: 

[231 2 Taka”ri can recall it was on a weekend. 

[Z<j Q Now, on the first visit, is it that you don’t have 

:::]a strong recollection that it might have been on a weekend, 

Page 96 

: 1 ]or do you have a recollection that it was a weekday? 

:21 A Again, it was hard - it was lrmrted staff there. 

:;;And to me, right now, I;m feelin 

;;; because there was lrmrted sta R 

it was on -on a weekend, 

.~. Q The first one also? 

ii! A Right. Because, really, the staff don’t start 

c- 1 leaving until probabl after about the 15th or so, that I can 

i ; 1 recall. Most of the s 7 aff will ao on vacation around that 

i Ei jtime frame. 

And again we were busy because we were going to 

1 ,?j Bosnia and so a lot bf the staff were just trying to get 

: : 2 1 details done before he went on that tnp. because no one 

ii:jexpected this tri goin to Bosnia. 

Q % the fact that staff hadn’t generally started 

i i: 1 leaving yet in early December, and the fact that this 

! 16 1 appeared to be a 

[ 17 1 the first on; mi 

(191 

I?ol, Q 

;ijithat one? 

i2li A Ri ht. 

-- 

1:; i here. 

Q O?ay. I want to ‘ust do something;;$rmationally 

You mentioned that Ms. & urne escorted - 

c-4 EMS. Lewinsky came out of the Oval Office. Mrs. Currie 

rrsjescorted her out of the White House? 

Page 94 Page 97 

,,. Now the first one I believe it would have been 

ii j in the Sam: ball ark - maybe between lob0 and 12:O0. 

.1- .-. BY Mg. WIRTH: 

Q And to the best of your memory, the first was 

iii during the week you think? _: 5 A 

Q 

fhat I - I can recall, yes. 

A 

Okay. And what do you remember about that one? 

Just comin out and just happened to be talking to 

j 5: be there talking to Betty. flirn walkin~~,_s;a&tt~;t;im 

: 1:. her, “How’s eve 

x” 9.2 

hrng orn ?” And 

: : 1 i going back into t e Ova 0 ice and makin phone calls again. ,.^ j--. Q And what time of day was t 3, at? 

..~. 

~:;~12:00- 

A Like I said, between 10:00 and 11:OO or 10:00 and 

..-. 

,--. 0 In the momin ? 

something r3, I e that. tt was - I remember 

/ ii i it being totand the later part of the momrng, that 

: : I i that happened. 

.. i‘ >--. BY MR. WISENBERG: 

,__. 

,..-. Q 

A 

Which one are we talking about? .^. :--_ That’s the first one. ,_^. Q Okay. Now, we don’t - I don’t want you to 

ii<iguess. unless - 

r-.. .-*. A I can’t give the specific time, unless - 

._=. !__ Q Well, no. 

Page 92 to Pi&S--- 

:” 

.-1 A No, I did. 

‘?I .- 0 Okay. Who asked you to do that? 

13’ 

;4; 

A She did. 

Q Monica Lewinsky? 

F-1 

.=. A No, Be 

[i: Q Okay. x 

Cunie did. 

A 

nd I take it Betty Cume was out with - I_, 

;;; 

She was busy with phone calls, and she asked - 

_-, AQ -“!g., 

( i: i the north gate?” 

en, can you help me get her escorted out to 

(111 

1111 2 AOnkdar’said “Sure.” 

[‘3! Q And Betty’Cunie did not go into the Oval Office 

’ 14 1 with Monica Lewinskv? 

ilSj A No. - 

Q Okay. As far as you know was an 

Ii;iOval Offi”A oth;;than the President and Monica z 

body in the 

ewrnsky? 

[ISI 

[L91 Q 

[201 A 

And how canJou be sure of that? 

[ z : : long ago. 

Because I ha just came out of there not too 

[33’ 

rz3: 

Q Okay. 

A I went there in there - a lot of the times when - 

[ZJ lyou know, he has the paging system? - he’ll turn around and 

(2 s! want coffee and all that. And I just - it wasn’t too long 

OlCStarr 
2830 

Glen Maes, WI98 XlAKqlulr) 

----- _~. -- _ _ _. . 

Page 103 

I231 A Direct&. Yes. 

Q Oka 

~::~PresiienYs moved r 0 the study, he’s going 0 be there l&36 

. So what woukl the ty 

P 

ical situation be the 

Page 104 

t~~minutes, you’ve already totd us that any gardener of any 

tzlkind. an 

13110 be to lx 

service parson working in that patio area is going 

to leave. 

I41 A Asked to bave the area. Yes. 

Q Okay. And any such person, even in this blue X 

Ii!araa you ~tke;~ttn&re going to be told to leave, correct? 

1191 Q Outside. 

iZoi 

A 0 That’s All dgh ??a’. And typical 

IZLkuest pathwa 

A bneci. 

would be one area V 

theywoutd go onthis 

hey coutd go. 

I231 

I241 Q 

cslyoule - 

Or theyre typicalty going to walk - well, 

Page 105 

ill A Tothedoor. 

-, 

I;; 

Q Tothe door of the dinin room. Okay. 

A Checkthe dini 8 

Q All right Chec%??%in~&m door Any other 

I:~areas~ywilltypical~walkwhenhe’smthestudybsI 

t6~havedescribedontheoutside? 

171 A That’s - that’s it. 

Q Okay. And the flower bed that you have drawn 

Iilgoes - that3 up against the wall of the study or the window 

t101of the s 

Y? 

goes all the way rarer to the dinrng room, almost 

tiiluptothe tnrn rwrndoor correct? 

II?1 A %es. Pas&thewindowonthat, too. 

I::& wfll check, ColTact? 

Q Andthadoorgoesrightuptothedoorthatyousay 

1151 A 

Q 

R’ ht. Thays the pathway. Yes. 

Or!a 

#arrows down from x 

. So this is a pathwa 

L 

where you’ve drawn 

tlelthe patio area. 

e door leading out of e dining mom into 

1191 A 

I:iidoor perha 

Co1221 

1131 

124 1 

$ a~~~~!$f$;~;&$ewJ;valk up to that 

MR. WlSENBERG: Okay. 

A JUROR: And then they’ll walk to the Dathwav. 

rzslthrough the pathway? 

. . 

Page 106 

ii1 A JUROR 

I 8 I he tzhecks 

No, I’m saying the Sacrat Servia, when 

the dining room door, does he walk that pathway in 

[g#ront ofthe stud to et there? 

THE MESS. 

:~~corn& f@un hens walking along the 

Yes Again, he has the two options 

lzlthat pathway, yes: That’s a direct ~a PO0 h. 

I. but he always goes 

I131 

I141 

1151 

1161 

1171 

rlalaaain 

pathway 

_~~_ _ 

I191 AJiRtJks that the pathway that runs parallel to 

rlolthf! .__ ,_._ wrindaws --~~------ -- -._ ___- 

1211 MR. WISENBERG: 

122 1 A JUROR: Yes. 

This pathway here. 

(231 MR. WlSENBERG: Okay. 

12.1 BY MR WSENBERG: .- -. 

1251 Q Your testimony is they’re going to go up this 

Page 107 

riiPathwaytothedoor. 

121. - A Correct. 

131 Q To the dining room. 

I41 A Correct. 

I51 Q 

A 

He’s going to walk on this pathway. 

~76~hitthereand obackorbackhere 

To go there or leave there and then this way and 

~~~windows. 

A J!!JROR: Instead of balking in front of the 

t101 THE WlTNESS: Right. 

1111 A JUROR: They’ll back ste around 10 15 20 feet. 

THE WITNESS: 

~:&3wthawirldowsAnd 1’11 I& at them -‘wed. you 

I141 BY MR. WlSENBERG: 

1151 Q You’ve got to answer the question. The question 

rl61qs when they’re on thus pathway and ‘ust for clarification, 

I 17 I IS that _A yo;rn by walktng past (hewindow? 

I181 

Q 

secret sefviu?. 

They’re about how many feet from that window2 

.--~ 

[211 A From hens to there? 

1221 0 The pathwa to the window to the study. 

:Z!about 26 feet. 

1251 

A ~~~~t~~toVTdmr,~~lwou~~y 

A JUR R: Tha s as doss as thefl get? 

1 

- ~~__-- 

Page 108 

THE WITNESS: 

I:~here.thepatiois . 

Yes, because the trees will be right 

ht here and then the - 

::;to tha 

A JURt% Okay. But that’s as dose as they’ll get 

I:j_~~~~~~~~~~~~OYttotd~ra~ 

171 BY MR. WlSENBERG: 

161 Q That’s the dining room door. you’ve mentioned? 

191 A Diningroomdoor. Yes. 

Q 

I:ibes yoube marked. 

And at least part of the pathway is behind the red 

TheyVe not really red, but you’ve 

r121mafked w&h them red. 

A 

~$y’fe actualty.walkmg through the 

r151govlg 

Yes.. They’re diracyctokh&tha~~,Bacause 

1161 ~k%ENBERG: 

rl7lauestions of the witness? 

okay. okay. k!thentanyother 

iiei ’ 

&II 

No respotiie. 

R WlSENBl 

I%oirKl to ask 

.--a”~ - ~~ MS. WlRlH’ 

I::&orn part of that with 

Before 70’ 

ou- :-a:- -m 

I231 MR WlSENBkRt 

_ t24lPe 

I251 MS. WlRTH: Thank you. 

LRG. I’mgoingtoaskthewitnass.l%n - 

yottpstap outstie for just a moment, 

u do, can you ir<he. 

r IncualsI 

3: Weneedyoutoinitialthab&om 

‘he 

-____ 

Page 103 to Page 108 OIC- 
2831 

BSA 

‘. ’ room would be - 

Page 104 

Glen Maes, 4/8/98 XMAXllh 

Page 107 

A Same level is thi! 

Same level as Gus oi p+&yy of the &al offi=. 

kay. Al?right. Sony about that. 

1 nave a question. 

ESS: Sure. 

[:7; 

[I31 

il31 

120; 

[Z?: 

[22j 

[?3: 

124: 

[?51 

Just out of curiosity. Around your 

bass? 

;s;j Yes. 

Car! I just have a look? 

are there dii;efi+ 

..- 

orange pass too. 1 

military. And you have ‘W”passes, which is 

,peo le - ‘w’ on it. And you have “RES.” fol 

ista R And that’s how they’re all coded. You 

for Secret Service, which is red. 

But these passes will give us full a 

the ground - an 

Fyw 

here in the White House. 

A JU OR: Okay. Thank you. 

THE WITNESS: Okay. 

administra 

r residence 

have “USS 

ccess and 

Ition 

S,” 

on 

Page 105 Page 108 

ill BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q Now, you said that on the second visit in December, 

I: i that you saw Monica go into Oval Office with the President. 

[ 4 1 Had you ever seen her do that before? 

[5: A 

161 Q 

Not personally walk in, no. 

Oka Had oueverseen her in theOvalOffice? 

I;; 

A No {haven?. 

Q Habe you ever seen her in the dining room? 

(9; A No. 

10; Q 

A 

Every seen her in the- 

:i iverbally restricted area because the staff don’t 

See. the dining room, that’s a res.dFn; - a 

lzfeven go back there, unless required to go back there. 

.~ 141 0 Had YOU ever seen her in the study? 

!15! A No. - 

1161 Q Okay. 

A And again staff - I mean it would be a rarity to 

i :l i see anybody back there, ‘except for if thd President calls 

i 19 j them b&k there. 

: ; : myself, and the aide to the President, are the key people who 

:z 1 would know - 

.3] BY MR. WISENBERG: 

:4i Q How about a Secret Service uniformed or 

: 5 1 plain clothes? 

I<? 

Inlit’s not 

A It will be - they have no business there. I mean 

- again, it’s weird how it works, because you have 

13 i a perimeter around the President - a perimeter. And you - 

:sland inside the perimeter, that’s where we work, in the 

: 1: 1 perimeter. 

‘I:!corne around the comer like Well who’s i’n thdre with the 

So for them to come in there and like just to 

: r<; President?” 

Q 

- they have’ no &sine& doing that. 

Now, that’s the study, as opposed to the 

~i~~Oval Office because it would be quite possible, 

: : B 1 wouldn’t it L 

‘171 A 

i : 3 ja possibili 

For them to be outside to look in. ves. that’s . 

.. 9, 8 In front of the Oval Office rioht? 

Normally, like his chief of staff, if he wanted to 

15; i talk to him. Or Bruce Lindsey. Or maybe his counselor or 

i ~2 j something - maybe. But it would be a rarity to have any of 

rrij]the staff back there. 

124; 0 Did you ever see her in Hallway No. l? 

I251 A No. 

c--/ _ ._ _. __ _ ._. _...__. 

iip ithey're 

A And that - it’s ve 

::z: he’s go P 

osted right outside. So x 

easy to db that to - 

he’s standing there. all 

to do is go like this and look (indicating). 

Again, with this back area here, no one has the 

ii: I access because one thing the Secret Service is not going to 

::5 1 let the& just walk in there. ‘They’re not - they’re - 

Page 106 

!I; Q Is that the only time you’ve ever seen her in the 

I j_, 11 Oval Office ~~ itself? ~~ 

[31 A 

Q 

That I physically saw her, yes. 

[41 Okay. Had you ever heard from any&d else that - 

15: A See, everything that she did was basical V yin 

(6 1 Betty’s office, where she d co?e out, because that was - 

17 1 like,, anybody can get access into that office s ace here 

[ 3 1 (indicating). That’s where a lot of people wou P d kind of 

[ 9 J like hang out there, because - you know, talk to Betty. 

Q Okay. Had you ever heard from anybody else that 

:p i she’s been in the Oval office? 

121 A No. Well,, yeah, there was a time - Neivis 

13 1 mentioned that for a radio address - he told me that he saw 

: 4 1 Monica with her family for a radio address. 

~sjthat weekend, so I wouldn’t know. 

I wasn’t working 

16: Q And that he saw them in the Oval Office? 

i?! A 

18 i the President. 

He happened to see Monica and her family meeting 

191 

2 oi 10 

What normally happens at a radio address - like 

o’clock - lo:08 in the mornmg on Saturdays, the 

21: President does - he either does a pre-taping, or he 

2~ 1 actually does a live radio address, which - when 

23 I he does a live radio address, YOU have UD to 

isi j80 people 

R 

lus come in there.- 

l25i nd what happens, they’ll sit down, listen to the 

J : the President. 

< : Q Okay. But Nelvis mentioned to you that he saw 

: -: Monica and her family in the Oval Office? 

‘Z’ 

.-. A Yes. 

0 Okay. An other occasions at which anybody toid 

: 1 ;iyou that th;y hi; yen My omca in the Oval Office? 

., 

--_ 

Q Or that they had seen Monica in the study 

i! < i or the dining room? 

:1:; A See. no one else would know, because- 

..=I Q I know, but - 

‘li: A Yeah. But there was no one - no one ever 

: 1-j mentioned ii no. 

.--, MS. WIRTH: Oka ..?_I -*, BY MR. WISENBE&: .^. .--I Q The study, erther? 

1 .--. A No. .^^l _--1 BY MS. WIRTH: 

::31 Q Or the hall - 

A But then, no one would know that, The only peopie 

ji:iwho would know would be Betty, Nancy Hemreich, Nelvis, 

Page 109 

:1j Q Walk in where? 

/;iat all. 

A Into the dining room or into the pantry space 

:41 Q Okay. 

I51 A The ‘re not authorized. 

:i1 MR. Wl&NBERG: Pardon me. 

:‘I BY MS. WIRTH: 

:91 Q Did you ever see Monica going into the study? 

:3i A No. 

Q 

ii; 1 the study? 

Did you ever hear anybody say that she’d gone in 

..). .--l A No. 

::31 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

“:I .- 

--c, .--, 

2 i: you ever see her leave the study? 

. ~, 

.-0, iiiv ~K’WIRTH: 

Q Okay. I want to focus on the period of time when 

iiiiMonic.a was working in the White House. 

::9> A Okay. 

Q You testified earlier that she was both an intern 

i_?iand then later a permanent employee. 

“‘I ?__ Do you remember for how long she was working in the 

::3lWhite House in both of those jobs - about what length of 

y 24 1 period of time that covered? 

::51 A No, because again, it’s - 

Page 104 to Page 109 OlCStarr 
2832 

c)ca Glen Maes. 418198 ..- 

Page 110 

!:.a year? 

Q Was more than a year? Less than year? About 

i A 

: ;. months. 

I would say working chief of staffs. maybe it was 

It couki have been seven, eight months or - 

;; i probably less than that. 

Because usually. interns when they come in, their 

if i main purpose In life is to get their time, get some trme 

is i under their belt. then the 

[ 9! nice de arture letter for t 

turn around and they can do a 

: 1~: toward P heir school. Which I know they do, because even my 

i em and anythrng that helps them 

rl::son wanted to do that. 

:12:. But. normally, I think its four months, what most 

i 13; interns will do. And then after that; if they turn around 

(1.1: and get lucky and get an emplo ment area, yeah, then they get 

[15:that job and - so I would - you r, now, off me, I would sa 

l i 6 1 anywhere from four to five months there, and then the ot 1 er 

(: 7: job could have been less than a year. 

Q Oka 

Ii z; the White House - x 

Now, during the time that Monica worked in 

0th as an intern and as a permanent 

t: o i employee - do ou recall occasions when you saw her 

r~~~speakrng to the b resident? 

Page 111 

II: A 

2 

Yes. Betty Curries office (indicating). 

[z: 

.%%ight be there with other interns. She - 

i::there’s a possibility there was other staff members right 

15 Ithere. And most of the time was that occasion, where other 

[ 6: people would be in there talking. 

[71 Q And the President was there? 

A And the President happens to walk in again, talk to 

1 ii Betty, and then go back to work. 

And then there’s - in the hallway, I believe, 

119 1 he’d ‘ust walk into the Oval Office. And it’s not like 

112: the 4 resident does this all day long - walking up and 

(;3!down the hallways. 

114; And out of the da 

r 

rme, it might be twice out 

1: 5 1 of the day he might walk in he hallway - maybe. And 

~~6~sometime.s not even that, because he II come from the outside, 

117 jgo to the Oval Office, do his work, leave, and go nght back 

Llsjup to the - 

ii:ispeakin 

Q Okay. But the specific places that ou saw her 

to the President when she worked in the 

[x:was Be&iuT;h--e main area, 

bite House 

(1-1 

,--_ 

r-i’ ,--. area and where else? 

:24: 2 ~would be probably offhand Walkway-l. 

125: Q You have a positive’recollection of having seen her 

Page 112 

: : : talk to the President in Walkwa 

/^’ 

.-. A I can’t recall tha Y 

No. l? 

:,’ Q Okay. Anywhere else other than - do you have any 

j::recollection of her speaking to the President anywhere other 

: 5 : than at Betty Cunie s work station? 

A We had parties but I just can’t recollect. 

: t: Because we’ve had a party back here (indicating) and I 

! 3 j believe she was invited there. But that - to ph 

; 4: stop and talk to the President, I wouldn’t know r 

siblly 

hat. 

[Is: Q 

I.,‘ A 

What’s back here by the - 

This - what it is is a private patio for the 

; ;s f President buitt in 1983 for President Reagan. And we had a 

i I 3 ; party out there once. We’ve had parties In Betty’s office. 

:14: And that’s where the main parties would be. Like, 

I: 5: a staffer leavin or it could be an intern, “Thank you for 

[ : 6 : your support. .I + hey 

[ :: : different occasions. 

could have worked for Nancy Hernreich - 

[18: 

[:?;a big deal. 

But mainly, birthday parties are the biggest thing, 

Q Okay. Do 

1 g E l White House when she le K 

ou know anything about why she left the 

ix: A 

her employment there? 

No, she never addressed me on that at all. 

[:3: Q Did an 

[24: 

r?c. L--1 Aa 

body else ever talk to you - 

Fhoug !- 

\ 

about rt? 

Page 113 

: :;; she was havin 

- in terms of her employment there? 

A No. 

Q Any criticism that she received? 

A The onlv thina that I can recall was that she was 

i: si hanging around to much. - 

[:3: Q 

A 

Hang around where too much? 

t::; Bein 

:::~often. That’s - that 9 

in the hallwa s - bein in the hallways too 

can recall - i m trying .9 o think of 

:_ j 1 her name - Evel n Lieberman. 

:z;: Q M%-hmm. 

:25: A She was the deputy chief of staff to Leon Panetta, 

Page 114 

:: ; and she mentioned at one time, she 

;6; Q Which - 

--I. A 

1 n i happened. 

See, that’s -that was the only time it ever 

: 31 thin 

I’ve never heard Evelyn Lieberman say another 

13 1 Tha 9 

I never heard an 

was of the end of t!’ 

hrng about any reaction to that. 

Q 

e subject. 

11) Which hallwa was Monica in when Evelyn - 

._/. --a l!v 

13: ky f$;,a@&l&R~.;’ 

i<j 0 You mean walkway - 

, =. A Oh, walkway. I’m sorry. Dog one. I’m just-I’m 

I;;just - I’m sorry. I just keep thinking hallway, ?I ut wrth 

:T 1 you Walkway-l. 

:5; BY MS. WlRTH: 

19’ Q 

fzij 

And that’s the walkway that Monica was in - 

--a, 1 A0 Right. 

i 5; j doing here?” 

-when Evelyn Lieberman asked you. What’s she 

‘l-.? 

,--, A And the reason - 

[?4! Q Is that tight? 

i-5! A Right. And the reason for it, because 

Page 115 

; 1: Ms. Lieberman’s office space is ri ht here. That’s 

::: Ms. Lieberman’s office (indicating 

:3: Q 

A 

Oka AndyouB 

i4: SOS r; ewas- 

:5: Q 

[6]SO that - 

Why don’t you put her in there - “EL” -just 

!‘! A (Witness complies.) And she’s no longer there now. 

i 9 j It’s another person - 

(3; Q I know. Okay. And was Monica walking in Walkway- 

; I 9 1 at the time that Evelyn asked you that question, or was she 

: 1; Ijust standing there, or was she talking to an body? 

[iI?] I% talked to me? 

i131 

; ;Eheimwhen Ms. Lrberman 

A 

Iff ithere but then a 

No. It was just - I believe Nelvis and I were 

; iii talked to me, 

ain I’m not sure. But I know she had 

an 8 she *. just sa s. ‘yhat is she doing here?; 

[ :T 1 ou know and you know, 

i 19 j kre.” anddhe ~$no~$~~n t need to have people In 

[i4] as 

i 2 3 1 standing there? 

onr ’ JUS passing through, or was she 

A She was standing talking. And then she left and 

IijMs. Lieberman did not approach her and us and sa that. $he 

;z3lwaited until she lefi and said, ‘Well, what was she & omg 

~3 4 1 here?” ‘Well, she just stopped by talking.” And then 

rzs;she was - 

OlCStarr Page 110 to Page 115 
2833 

Glen Maes, 418198 XMAx@Ol 

Page 116 

-. .^ 

Cl Was she talking to you and Nelvis? 

A Yes. -. 

2. Q Okay. 

A She was talking to us personally - Nelvis and I - 

i l iafler Monica has left the area. 

i Q All nght. So Monica was talkin 

::;personally. and after Monica left the area, 

to you and Nelvis 

Eve 9 yn Lreberman 

All riaht. And did either you or Nelvis respond 

‘t need 

but I 

i:ijto her- 

:10! 

_- 1’ 1 Aa ‘just - to Evel - n Lieberman? 

-.7, .--1 A - nodde dy to her, “Okay.” Just - 

:z3: 0 When in relation to that event did Monica leave the 

::4 IWhite House? 

:?5j A I would say, offhand, anywhere from six to seven 

Page 117 

::lmonths after that 

:iS; 

.li’ 

A No. 

Q - in the vicinity of the Oval Office? 

:. 

.- 7; 

::j; 

I. .;9j 

:zo1 

A No. 

Q Do you know whether that was an issue at any time? 

A 

Q 

To me, personally? No. 

That anybody thought it was an issue. Did you hear 

:z: larrything like that? 

.-11 A No. It just -what I heard -the aftereffects 

i$jwas that we want to try to keep the hallways clear. 

:z4 ~Meaning that - it was just a verbal saying, “Oh, let’s 

: 25 I- we don’t want to have, you know, staff congregating 

Page 118 

: 11 by the Oval Office area.” 

‘71 And a ain. when people -when that happened, for 

l;ithe first wee & or so, people started divertin 

14 1 oin through the lobby area, vice going in 

:5,&a?Office. 

.B 

more in - 

ront of the 

:61 Because everybody knows when you 

:7 IOval Office, that 

r 

ou might get a glimpse of the B 

o by the 

resident 

: 3 lof the United Sta es. 

:s1 Q Okay. So other than that one incident, did you 

: :O iever hear anything else in the line of comment or criticism 

: 1: 1 about Monica hanging around the Oval Office too much, or 

.:21 hanaina around- 

:131 

:141 ” - “a No. - the vicinity of the West Wing too much? 

.‘9, 

ifs;the hallwa 

A Because she - as much - she didn’t walk throuah 

” 

: :T j see Betty E 

s - or the walkways as much. She would go and 

ume and, you know, maybe bring something to her, 

:s 1 talk to her, and that was it. So - 

:131 Q Did she have business with Betty Currie, to your 

.I~?] knowledge, or was she just friends with her? 

.~, A I think - to me, personally, I believe more 

:I;friends than anything else. 

:23i Q Okay. And - 

A Because Bett 

/_:idon’t know if you’ve been ab r e to talk to Ke 

is such a rsonable person. I 

er at all, but 

Page 116 to Page 121 

Page 119 

: : I once people start talking, then she’s very personable and 

:I !energetrc all day. And she’s always with a smile. So d’s 

! 3 1 that srtuatron with her on a dail basis. 

!4: BY MR. WISENBERL: 

151 Q You never heard Monica referred to as a clutch 

rs!while you were there? 

A Everybod is referred as a clutch. You are, I 

Ii {You know so to me a c r utch IS a clutch. To me anybody 

[sjoutside of’the’presidbnt of the - the President and the 

[ lolfamily is a clutch. They’re going to get close to the 

[ 1 I 1 President. So I’ve heard that terminology all the 

[12]time - dutch. 

113? Q 

i14! 

Well, what does “clutch” mean? 

A To me, a clutch is a person to et up to the 

1 I5 1 President of the United States to 

[ 161 maybe conversate with him, and hen 

penopnally s I! ake hrs hand, 

et a photo of the 

[ :7 1 President. That is a clutch. A real clu ch IS get a 

[ 1s 1 photo of the President of the United States and be 

[ 13 1 amongst thQe Pre&nt. 

1201 

i-Ii i A That’s a clutch. 

IZia clutch. 

Q I don’t understand your comment that everybody is 

am 

.-~. 

1241 A Meanin that as much as -where I work, and 

[ 15 1 seeing how people try 9 o get ,. In there, and being close to 

Page 120 

L 11 the President. and maybe the photographer is there, and - 

12 1 they’re sub’ect to be a clutch. 

[31 d 

Iziwith 

A 

Okay. 

So its like the ma‘ority of the people I deal 

- volunteers, to interns, to s I aff. 

(sloutside coming into the White House 

to people from the 

17 1- everybod is a possible clutch with w 

rounds - you know, its 

e President. 

181 Qy 

A 

Everybody - 

So if you want to look at the terminology “clutch,” 

r:i;anybody can be a clutch. 

Page 121 
2834 

_-. Glen Maes, 4!8/98 xk4xf211 

Page 122 

,.. ca - rf fou take them in for a tour. and they see the 

1 s i President.ATha;;;; my question. 

;3: 

Q And also I know that you donY have people who are 

I :iofficiall the clutches I mean. there’s no, like, tag that 

I 6! Says. 

;;1. 

*‘i’,;7 Whittit. House clutch” - 

[ 9; IS: Are thze people - and 

or any-thin 

w 

like that. What I’m talking about 

ey could obviously be 

(10 Idifferent people at different times - 

111: 

Aa Right - wnere somebody says, ll’tat person is a real 

i :; 1 clutch ” meaning a person who more than the normal person 

t I 4 1 who works in the' Whrte House - 

i:z]lcampai 

A Bemuse he might have been in the Presidents 

n and sa ‘Let’s 

9, 

et into the President. Let’s get 

[l-ilin and s ake the t: restden ? s hand.” 

Q No because there is a person - let’s not talk 

j:z{about a person bri’nging other people in. Because they 

;zo 7 are a person who works in the White House, or who has 

1: 11 occasron to be in the White House, and seems to always 

[:z]want to be close to the President. They’re wartrng In a 

123 1 hallwav when the President - they just always seem to be 

iI; iwaiting in that hallwa 

_ _ 

- 

[?51 A Take & at one step over and make an advance 

Page 123 

[Sl A 

16; Cl 

A 

?zhhere people like that in the White House? 

I see it gorn on because, a 

Iii scenes. I’m looking in a dr # 

ain. I’m behind the 

erent direction 9 rom what other 

r 9 I mode are lookino at. And there’s people like that. And 

tiojto me, it’s ‘ust an%rdina thing. 

h All right. % 

i::;you, first of all - b 

ow, was Monica considered to be - by 

tl3lof the ordinary, in Ihe 

you, one of these people who is out 

sense that I have said - waiting in 

tlalthe hallwa 

x 

- 

To me personally, as in trying to get toward the 

! ::; President to say hi or’somethinp, yes. To me, she was like 

t171a groupie. . 

_ 

[la1 Q Okay. 

Cl91 A I mean, if you want to ut it in context, that’s 

[ zo 1 what I’d put her as - as a presidenha .P groupie. 

And there was - has there been other 

Iz:;that? Yeah, there’s been eople t 

p 7 

ing to get in t R 

ople like 

ere. 

[ 2x1 They just want to see the restden 

And again. to me, did she step boundaries on 

i:i;anything? To me, personally, no. Again, anybody could have 

Page 124 Page 127 

[ 1 ldone it. Anybody could go in there and talk to. Betty, and 

tr! 1 President walks in, 91ey, how you doing. Monica?’ I mean, 

13 1 that’s how casual rt is. 

I41 Q 

A 

But to you - 

But they turn around and get photos, and they turn 

i 2 1 around and shake hands and all that - you know, anybody can 

t7ldo that. 

Q All ht. Now I want to take it a step further. 

iii You have said - firs s of all there is this group of 

1 IO 1 identified - you’re familiar ‘with that characterization 

[ 111 and to you, you would say she’d be in that group. You’d 

tlzlcall her a 

% 

roupie. 

ow my uestion is: To your knowledge did 

Ii:!other people in’the 

[ls;exarn le 

&hite House such as - and as an 

.p jxy [ 161 Jennr er 

ou know. an Evelyn beberman, a Betty Currie, a 

almten - I mean, just as exam les -.did other 

[ 17 1 people who had permanent pos.itions in & e Whrte House also 

[ 13 1 consider her to be in that roupre catego ? 

1191 A I - I never 3, ad a conversa r! ion wrth anybody about 

r~nlthat. ,__I. -., no. 

[211 Q 

A 

Okay. So you - 

Because I - I can see it. I know what it is, and 

i zfi it’s not - you know, I don’t have to have someone tell me 

rz4lthat. So - 

[Zj] 0 Okay. You don’t recall her, then, being referred 

. . . 

.-__ Q You have said to you - your view - you’d put her 

:: 1 in this groupie category. 

‘i‘ 

._. A 

Q 

To me personally, yes. 

Right. And now, my third uestion is: Other 

[l: than the Evelyn Lieberman incident, was 9, t ere any talk from 

c 6 1 anybody - scuttlebutt. rumor in the White House - that 

i71would make you think that other people felt the same way 

! i 1 about her that you did? Whether its negative or positive, 

i ,j put her into a groupie+ 

::glaround even more than p” 

category - someone who’s hanging 

: 111 much access? 

he normal person, trying to get too 

.._I A I think between Nelvis and I - you know, “Here 

ii;icornes Monica” 

;:j:cares, basicall 

- between the two of us. Again, it’s like who 

to me. 

It’s II $ e, you know, she’s up there. She doesn’t 

Ii! have access to go into the Oval Office, but she goes in and 

!;71sees Betty. Who cares about that? 

“P, 

ifiieverybody had access to e 

That’s how me, rrr$naa;$BeEz;:r:: Kkm;;d you 

::s:say - the Oval Office mom. he would turn around and - you 

:r:jknow, people can talk to her ersonall 

;::j had, and she’d - Betty woul B X 

Any question she 

answer 

::~lfor that person. 

er or get an answer 

Q Okay. So are you saying that and ou Nelvis would 

if: ftalk about this? In other words, you were saying: hat’s 

Page 125 

:-to by others as this type of person - ou know, a clutch, a 

f : groupie - In the sense we’re talking. r his extra sense? 

.: A As in related to bernqrn the area and then, hey, 

1. she’s a little more than most people. 

.5: Q Right. 

A Again. I - people talk, “Monica is u 

.‘:“She’s in the hallway - except, like, Lieberman. w t? 

there,” or, 

en I 

i 5 j talked about her being there - she might have said 

:::something. but to me. she just said, “Let’s,just try to 

::: : keep this calmed down about f)eople wa!king through here.” 

I can’t think of staff real y saying. 

i :f i out for her,” or anything like that. 

Hey, watt 

.I 3: telling me that. 

I never had anybody 

Q All ri ht. Even if not, ‘Watch out for her,” just 

iililike “Oh God, it’s 9 onrca. There she is a arn t 

::E;get’in the photo op.” Any kind of scuttlebu a or 9 ta 

ing to 

::-iabout that. 

.-i‘ A Nobody being negative with it, that I can recall. 

i: s j No one being ne ative with it. ._“. .-d, Q day. 

._. . A A arn. I see the stuff that eve 

i~~:newspapers, an 8 on TV. and what they do in .r 

body else sees in 

he press. I’m 

:‘3ithere. I mean, this is crazy, what the press can do. 

.‘I‘ And then showing where he turns around and hugs 

ifsi her. I’m like, that’s a bunch of garbage. You know, he 

Page 126 

,~. 

! i j don’t work 

Q ‘Well that’s why we - we’re not there. We 

in the White House. 

:$;extraordinaril 

And you’ve got an 

close level of contact with the 

:~;Presidentif t K e,$;.ed States - 

,. . ; 

.--, 

,--* 3 rom what you’ve told us, correct? 

.-A. AQ Correct. 

Q So that’s wh it’s so important that - we don’t 

i fi j care what the press says. XI e care what people who were there 

::i;and who know say. Do you understand? 

.‘7‘ .- A Right. 

::Eii Q And so m 

: 13; have it right or the press 1: 

specific question is not does the press 

ave rt wrong - and we know 

:zs ~there’s been a lot in the press about what Monica was 

: 2 1 j or wasn’t. .__j But as I understand what you’re sayin 

iS;icorrect me if I’m wrong;. I do not want to 

- you 

p ut wor .%. s in your 

:?41mouth. You recall this Incident with Eve yn Lrberman. .*cl ..--A A Okay. Yes. 

Page 122 to Page 127 
2835 

met. Glen Maes. 4/8/98 XMAX’ZZ) 

Page 128, 

: 11 the brg deal? What are people concerned about? So what. 

; : 1 she sees Betty? 

A No. 

[35]was here -” 

Page 129 Page 132 

ill A 

Q 

” - stopped by and said hello,” es 

” - yesterday,” on the one hanc! and saying, 

i;i”Gosh. Molica;rnds too much time around here? 

I41 

[5; Q Oka 

[61 A Ri hr. 

Do you understand - first of all - 

:73 

[e] 

!9] 

i 

- 9 he question - 

Iliiaunderstand what you’re saying here, but it - 

ilO! A No, I !s not that - that situation. 

[ :iiwant 

Q All ri ht. What I’m trying to get at is - and I 

Y. 

ou to tell me 9. I d’s rn any way unclear. But I think 

: 13 1 it’s a arrty sample question. 

You ve told us about the Evelyn Lieberman incident, 

I :“, 1 where she just said kind of, “What’s she doing here? What’s 

[; 61 Monica dojng here” - 

i:7j 

;I81 Aa !i?ht. hat krnd of stuff. vou’ve told you us that you 

c I 9 1 consider MznicaRFh+% in thrs groupie category. 

-?“I 

i EiEvelyn Lieberman - you know, where 

;:o]walkway, and Evel 

: 111 'What's she doing i 

n said, What’s she doing here?” or, 

il2lshe said. 

angrng around here?” - whatever 

;131 A Mm-hmm. 

[14] Q How long was that? Do you have a feel for that? 

!?S] A To me, it was - Evelyn Lreberman was still in 

;16]OfflCe, working there, and offhand, it was over a ear a 0. 

Q 

i f z i the fall of ‘97? 

Okay. So you think Monica left t ; e Whi P e House in 

!L91 A Yeah. Aaain. I don’t - I’m uncomfortable with 

.--a 

‘211 Q An: ‘;r’ihe question is: Did anybody else around there 

i 33 j consider her in that cate o too, based on what you heard 

(2 3 1 them say, or scuttlebutt 9 T x3 at’s - 

A No. not anv scuttlebutt. I mean, it’s iust - I 

i%jthat answed bey;F - - 

;:11 

.‘7] 

.-- A - I don -’ t know. 

:231 Q 

i24i 

You iust don’t know? 

A Ri hf. 

IZ51 Q Ol?ay. You mentioned earlier, with respect to, 

I241 

:25lcan ‘t recall anybody saying that. 

Page 130 

[II 

1:1 

:31 

Q Oka In other words, this isn’t a big hot topic? 

A Mm- i mm. 

0 

i 4 j big hot topic - 

As far as you know in the White House, this isn’t a 

“Monica Lewinsky, what a clutch. She spends 

! 5 1 too much time around here.” 

1;:. 9 A No, because it’s not like - if 

d 

ou were there, 

1 its not like her every day doing this, like, ell. I got my 

f 3 1 chance.” No, it - like, it might be once out of the week 

L 9 1 coming up that way, coming back to Betty Currie. talking 

[lo]to her. 

'ill The following day, she may come down and stop to 

; 13 j us, say hello, and then-proceed on,. And then if she’s lucky, 

i i 3 1 and the boss hap 

: 4 I office soace. we 

ns to walk out in the - Betty Currie’s 

,:5jthat’s it: 

s” see her. and then they’d talk. You know, 

1161 MR. WISENBERG: Sorry for that interruption. 

i:71 MS. WIRTH: 

[I81 THE WITNESS: 

That’s okay. 

Can I take a break here? 

[I91 MS. WIRTH: Yeah, sure. 

:zo: THE WITNESS: 

:211 MR. WISENBERG: 

I’ll vo;g;k2ck. 

“‘I ,-- THE WITNESS: 

MR. WISENBERG: 

Yeah, it’s just the restroom. 

We’ll wait for you. If you could 

ii: i just knock, and then we’ll open the door when you Want to 

:35]come back. 

Page 131 

. 

_-. THE WITNESS Okay. 

,^. (The witness left the room from 12:20 p.m. 

:jluntil 12:25*p..m.) 

:4: 

:5: MR. WISENBERG: Let the record reflect 

lsithat the witness has reentered the Grand Jurv room. 

1 ij Madame Fore erson. do we have a quorum? 

!9] FOF!EPERSON: Yes we do. 

MR. WISENBERG: 

!iiin the Grand Ju 

i:li 

room7 

Are there any unauthorized pe 

FORSERSON: No there are not. 

..1, .--1 MR. WISENBERG: All right. 

:;31 FOREPERSON Mr. Maes 

:14j THE WITNESS: Okay. tK 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Tn;;o;till under oath. 

!15! 

Q Mr. Maes. turning now to the next 

i :: 1 after Monir leav;hh;Employment in the White K 

riod of time 

ouse. 

!I81 

Q Do you have any vague recollection of generally 

iiiiwhen she left -what year it was, or approximately how long 

;zijago it was? 

A Va 

:_: jthought it was the %e K iiecause 

uely. Again, bus the wa we are-to me, I 

r:c]she - 

grnnrng of fall s e left. 

::51 0 Fall of what? 

rsons 

Page 133 

r I] I think, the last December visit that Monica made to the 

!3 ] White House, when she went into the Oval Office with the 

13 1 President - 

L41 A 

Q Izi White Houre. 

:7! 

!81 Q 

rg]ask you - 

I:01 A 

::11 ? 

Mm-hmm. 

-that Betty asked you to escort Monica out of 

Right. 

Had that ever happened before? Did Betty of 

TI? bring guests out? Yes. 

(121 n 

;:3]She-what Be 

%&se of Betty’s job - you know on the phone. 

%I 

- 

; : 4 1 that detail, what 

I don’t know if you want to get into 

Q 

etty does. 

What I was asking is, had Be 

jizipreviously to escort Monica out of the White !I 

ever asked you 

ouse? 

'171 A No. that was the first time. 

The very first time? 

Correct. And that I know of, she’s done it herself 

OlCStarr 
2836 

BSA Glen Maes, 418198 XMAX(Z3) 

_ people out? 

Page 134 

I mean it’s like there’s no set 

ave might have three times. if 

A That’s the onl 

Q And that was yD 

-the only time, one time 

ecember of ‘97? 

A Mm-hmm. 

Q And YOU think that was the second visit. towards 

1; ; : the end of the month? 

A To me, personally, I think it was because most of 

[ :- : the staff were gone, and there was nobody else for her to 

1: s : see. Because rt was that quiet of day - no one around. 

d So I’m sure if she would have went to another 

~~~~office space, they would have been the ones escorting 

l-7: : her out. Because once you come on the grounds, you 

~z:just can’t walk around the grounds. You get stopped 

rz?:eve 

?? 

here 

11: -wh~c 

you go, because your pass WIII be an A Pass. 

means “Appointment,” and you won’t be able to 

[:swalk around. 

Page 137 

: I : us that have permanent access. The rest of the- are of 

~z~limtted access 

0 And to your knowledge, has he eer assisted in 

ii: waihng in the dining room on tables, or - 

[5: A There’s been functions where we’.+e had official 

[G! luncheons possibly. There’s been times where - what we do 

[ 7 1 if it’s a bilateral meeting, we’ll have the presidens 

I 8 I sittrng down. We have a fireplace in the backgrozd. 

i9! And then we’ll come in,, let the press dc heir 

[~olshots. the press leave, we come rn through the ha :way door 

[ 1 I I-- 1 - wme throu 

[ 1: 1 Oval Office. Two 9 

h that way from the dining room Into the 

rays, approach both presrdents serve. 

ii3: That’s where he would wme In effect 1 always 

i: 4 1 serve the President, and then we always have wroever is 

[ 1s I assisting us serve the guest of the President - w+..ch could 

[ 16) be a prime minister or a president from a foreign munt 

[ITI And he did assist on that. Again, they co tha r , we 

[la I o bade to the dining room, set the trays down, hl;h five, 

[ 1 s I ‘;t hanks a lot. See ou later.” 

!101 And he goes r; 

[zllas maitre d’. 

ack, and he was busy doing nis stuff 

il?l 0 Okav. And that’s downstairs? 

i231 

[241 

[251 

A That’s downstairs. 

Q Okay. And does Mr. Nelvis also know Mr. McGrath? 

A Yes. 

Page 135 

:1- And everywhere you go - especially up in 

i z- :that area, because of way the Secret Service is set up - 

i j:thgy’ll be hitting you left and ri ht. “Hey, where are 

[;:going: c)” “I’m going to go see 8 

ou 

etty Currie. ” “Oh, aI7 

: 5: nght. ’ So ou 

[i: d 

need an eswrt to get around. 

Okay. Do you know Michael McGrath? 

I_ 

;$I 

A Yes. 

Q Who is he? 

15: A Mike McGrath is a -was a master chief. retired 

12 :now. He - his main ‘ob was maitre d’ to the White House 

1: :staff mess, which is I ocated 

1: : Oval Office is (indicated). 

one level below this, where the 

13: Q Okay. And did he ever pitch in upstairs in the 

:: :Oval OfficeAarea? 

i5: I can recall three times he - actual1 two times 

ie:he 

P 

itched in. The other time, he happened to wal ZV 

:-:tha space. 

up rn 

15: And the - and what I can recall on the times that 

19:he did wme up, one of them was because -they got excited 

zc:because the President came in the Oval Office unannounced - 

:; : rneanin that there was no schedule for it. It was on 

__ -7.a Satur %, av. 

1 

;:‘I was alrea 8 

ot in - as I said it takes about 11 minutes. 

y up. I was dressed. I was watchin TV. And, 

?s;‘The President is in the Oval.” I turn around an 8. jump rn 

[II 

Page 138 

Q Okay. Are they friends? 

[?I A Yes. And - 

[31 Q Again, McGrath was more friends with me than he w 

[ 4 1 Nelvis because I played basketball with him on the weekends; 

[ 5 1 there was times when we went out to a Baltimore Orioles 

[ 6 1 game So we were closer that wa 

[-ilwould. and Nelvis didn’t do those t k. 

compared to what Nelvis 

[a 1 that way with him. 

rngs. So I was closer 

And then he remarried. And then when that 

[ i,‘l happened things kind of died down between the relationship. 

[::]Not as much - still, it’s like, hey, we’ve been on hxzs 

i 12 1 together, we travel together, we know each other real good, 

[i31you know, family-wise. He’s been at my house. So it was 

114 I-- it was less, you know, personal relationship toward 

[:slthe end - 

[I61 Q Okay. 

K 

A - his 

Q 

last year and a half. 

rlglwith him. 

Okay. But when he was a single guy, you did stuff 

iZO] A Ri ht. 

1211 Q Ol?ay. Do ou know whether Mr. N&is ever 

[ 2: 1 dis”ed,“on~~a:;~~~~~~~~ McGrath? 

!Z31 

Q Okay. Are you familiar with the story 

!;l i that came out in a tabloid publication recently 

:i :my car. I ran in the Oval office. 

And the second time he came in, the boss came in, 

Page 139 

[ 11 about Mr. McGrath, in - 

[Zl A Oh, yeah. 

[31 Q Okay. Have- 

[41 A I - I was shocked. 

[51 Q 

161 A 

Have you read it? 

Oh, I read it. And it was terrible. 

171 0 Okay. Do you know anything about the story that 

[ 8 I was reported there. 

I91 A All the - to me, what I read into it. everything 

[ 10 1 is exaggerated - him being the butler of the Presrdent. 

[Ill You know, basically, when we travel on the road, 

I IZI OU’E almost like a butler. So he can say that and then 

[ 13 1 X low rt out of context. “Yeah, I’m the butler in the 

I 14 I Oval Qffice.” 

And McGrath was never in charge up there. never - 

I:zjhadver limited access - only on those three occasions I 

[ 17 Iknow o hrm being up in that area, and then assisting us for 

[I 8 1 the services. It could be the cabinet room, it could be 

[ 191 almost anywhere, “Hey, Mike, I made a hand.” He put his 

[zoljacket up, “Hey, what do you need, Glen?” “Hey, you know, 

[z 1 J 

al 

rab a pdcher there and serve some water to the guest right 

[Z:I et-e. _ “Okay.” Then he’d go right back downstarn. 

Again, he - he was uncomfortable coming upstairs 

i::ilike we were uncomfortable having him up that way. because’ 

12sjthen it’s just - it’s not a normal thing for him being 

Page 134 to Page 139 
2837 

BSA Glen Maes, 418198 

Page 140 

; : : up there. ,^. Q Okay. But in that tabloid there was an 

:<;incident reported, was there not, with regard to something 

r 4 ; that Mr. Nelvis told Mr. McGrath about lipstick-stained 

i j j towels that he found i? the vicinity of the’ Oval Office? 

! 6! Do you reTI t!adoqortion of the story? 

:;I 

[F; Q Do you know anything about that incident? 

IS! A No. 

[IO] Cl Did Mr. Nelvis ever discuss that incident with you? 

:i: A No. 

x-1 Q Did you ever hear anything about that incident 

;; j prior to reading the article in the tabloid? 

A No. And what’s funny about it - you know, I don’t 

i:; know if you want to hear it, but when the President does 

16 1 makeup - he gets make on - like, say, he does a statement 

i,!on TV - that’s where he’ll use the Oval Office sometimes, 

18 1 cabinet room, almost anywhere. 

tzisorne makeup on. Its a fleshtone-type makeup for his eyes, 

And he might do a photo shot. And he might toot 

2 11 because it’s a little bag y down there. 

And he puts 9 I on, he does the statement, then he 

z’,i ets towels. Normally, what we have is two hand towels - 

24 1 %- lgger hand towels for him. Then we have another hand towel, 

25]a real thin one. Then we have a face cloth in there. And 

Page f41 

[ 11 those are standard in his restroom. His restroom is only no 

[z 1 bi ger than this table here (indicating), for the 

[ 31 w I? ole restroom. 

[4! And we’ll keep that supplied. And the end of the 

[slday - I’ll make sure everything is cleaned u at the end of 

rslthe dav. We put stuff in a bag in a drawer, R ept .’ itin 

But you wouldn’t be concerned - 

if you saw that kind of makeup because you know 

ilgjwhat that is. _ 

i:iisituation 

A If I saw red Ii 

P 

stick it would be a different 

eah. 

~211 that’s kin .-cr 

Then I wou d be, io me, like “Hey 

of curious.” I would know somethin 

[:? 1 here, unless some makeup artist turned aroun 8 

is brong 

and put 

r 2x1 somethino on him and wioed it off. vou know. That’s 

iI;ja slimpogsibili 

t& ‘- 

Yes? ’ 

[251 A JU OR: You said on what - two occasions you 

Page 142 

: I Icame and Mr. McGrath was there. 

121 THE WITNESS: Ri ht. 

131 A JUROR: He said .% 

I4! THE WITNESS: 

e was holding the fort for you 

Holding the fort for me, yes. 

!51 A JUROR: Okav. Were there anv auests with the 

i6jPresident at that time - yov know, after you &tie and 

i 7 1 relieved him? Did the President - 

THE WITNESS: No he never discussed because he 

I8gjwas like - like, “Hurry up. I got io go,” you know, be&use 

10 1 it was on a Saturday, they were busy downstairs working, and 

: 111 we really didn’t have an conversation between us. 

:121 It was like, V&l at did you give the President?” “I 

- ” I think he gave him a coffee or a tea. A 

‘14 1 e kinfl of like was sa in 

i::~!~?D?~C~p.. U;uak & 

ain. 

coffee or tea, but - he said .Ihat 

‘16]Or a Diet Gin er Ale. 

ose three are his main beverage - 

j17! 

our beverages he has. 

Bu agarn. It wasn’t much of a conversation, “Here 

la] I’m holding it for 

:~g]rne on the shout J 

ou. See you, Glen,” and he, like, taps 

er and runs back downstairs. 

j?Ol A JUROR: 

.zllguests. do ou? 

So you don’t know if the President had 

.‘:I Sk E WITNESS: No. And again, that short amount 

23 1 of time - I mean, seeing the Secret Service, someone would 

:24 1 have mentioned, “Hey, you know, the President had a guest 

2 s 1 in.” “Okay.” 

Page 140 to Page 145 

XMAX.24) 

Page 143 

il‘ So it 

:I Ion. Again, t P, 

ives me kind of a heads up, what’s going 

at’s how our relationship between us is - we 

! 3 1 inform Secret Service, the Secret Service informs us. 

[4: So we try to ive him as much privac and 

~5 jif there was a guest in w ere. normally the) w0u.d 7, tell 

[ 6 1 me, “Hey, Glen, you got a guest tn .there. I’m IIke. “Okay.” 

[ 7 1 And then I’ll know. And I’ll wait until the guests gets out, 

(a 1 and then I’ll turn around and say to Betty, ‘Who IS the 

191 uest?” “Oh, the uest was this person.” “Okay. Thanks.” 

[IO; %. nd then I can o % ack to the pantry again. Yes? 

[II: BY Iv&. WIRTH: 

Q Just for the record, I’m going to read a portion 

i :G i - a small portion from this tabloid publication. so that 

114 1 you know exactly what sto we’re talking about. It sa s: 

:15; “McGrath also talke 2 about how another White Y; ouse 

116lsteward. Bayani Nelvis, told him about seeing Monica Lewinsky 

117letnerge from a rivate session with Clinton in the Oval Office 

[lslstudy and then e, ad to dean up the mess they left behind. 

“Nelvis told his boss that the youn 

i:iithen just 22 -was shaky and seemed 

ex-intern - 

to %e in shock when she 

[?l]emerged from the study with her hair mussed, her lipstick 

r:z]smeared. and her clothes askew. 

I;:; 

“McGrath told” - and we’ll insert the tabloid 

ublication - “‘It was a weekday evening in, I think 

[25 1 R ovember or December 1995, not long after Monida had bee:: 

Page WI 

L 11 promoted from intern to the le islative affairs office inside 

[2 Ion White House. It was abou a 6:30 after the most of the 

[ 3 1 staff had gone home. 

‘“Nelvis’ re 

i :; President was in 9 

ular post was the pant The 

he Oval. Nelvis was in x e oantrv 

isi Sudden 

y 

he came runnin. up to me downstiirs in’the mess 

[ 7 1: it's jus underneath the 8 

[ 8 1 in some kind of shock. 

val Office - and he was clearly 

“He took me aside and told me that Monica had just 

r:iicorne out the study with her hair all messed up, her lipstick 

[ 11 jsmeared, and she was all shak 

[ l?]pretty good friends, Nelvis and Kn 

and in shock. They were 

onica, but I don’t think 

113 1 she even said anythin 

mAnd when she 9, 

to him. She just let?. 

ft he went into the stud 

i ::; found towels smeared with lipstick on the floor. Y 

and 

know the 

[ 16 1 reports now are that they were tissues and that the 

r 

were 

117 Istained with something else, but he told me towels 

[ 18 land he didn’t mention anything other than lipstick. 

hat day, 

[ 19 1 told me he cleaned them all up. 

He just 

‘“It was obvious that he knew what went on there 

I:: i and he didn’t have to s 

122 1 upset by it, and made ip” 

II it out for me. He was clearly’ 

clear that Monica seemed like she 

[ 2 3 1 was shocked and really upset, too. 

“Nelvis kind of took me in confidence. We’ve 

IS:lknown each other for years. I think he needed to get it off 

Page 145 

[I 1 his chest. He liked her, and he was worried with about 

~2 1 her,“’ et cetera. 

i i 4 j he trying‘io do? 

Because I know McGrath and I know how much a 

i:zikidder he is. And then he buts this article in there, and it 

[ 17 I shocked me. 

llE1 Q Okay. The auestion was. thouah: Did Mr. Nehm - 

ii9j 

I201 y ever tell you - let me ask the question? 

1211 A Okay. 

Q The question was: Did Mr. Nelvis ever tell you 

I::ithat he had found an 

[24 IOval Office, and by t x 

stained materials in the area of the 

at, I mean either the Oval Office 

1251 itself, the pantry, or the dining room? 

OlCStan 
2838 

- 

Page 146 

Glen Maes. 418199 

A No. 

Q Are there towels kept in the Presidents bathroom? 

A Yes. What I rust explained - do vou want me to - 

i -there’s one, two - two handtowels’ a thin hand towel and 

= -a face cloth that’s standard set u 

1; :We’ll have - we’ll make sure tha F 

for him every morning. 

- : just in case he walks in on us. 

s done in the morning, 

2‘ And then at the end of the day is when I normally 

3 j pick everything up and replace them. _ 

_. And then what we do is, we keep them in one drawer 

i If j space, which is located in the Oval Office dinin 

R 

room. And 

: ;: 1 it could be an here from one week to two wee s before we 

: : 3 : take them an r et them deaned. 

-1:: Q 

::5:as well? 

%kay. Are there towels kept in the dining room, 

- i A No. Well. again, the clean towels are in a dresser 

: “idrawer the size of this (indrmting) and some lower drawer 

f I? f - all the towels. 

The second drawer of that four-drawer dresser 

ii f i drawer is where we keep all the dirty stuff. And then in the 

:I: > back of it is mainly stuff,for dining purposes - anywhere 

::2 :from placemats to napkins in there. .--*. 

--. Q 

::4: 

.-=. 

-__ 

t 

Okay., Are there ttssues kept in the study? 

the: s - as rn Kleenex? 

Page 149 

Q Mr. Nelvis. Was Mr. Nelvis closer to 

:! Mr. McGrath than he was to Mr. Fox? 

A Definite1 Definttely. 

I:- Q Do you ; now whether Mr. Nelvis ever discussed 

5. Monica Lewinsk with Mr. Fox? 

‘i - A Jever. 

. 

:_. 

Q Mr. Fox ever discuss Monica Lewinsky with you? 

I: A Never. 

ij- Q Turning to Betty Currie for a moment. Did 

[iii Betty Currie ever speak to you about Monica Lewinsky? 

I::: A Yes. When she’d come in, “Hey, Monica is stopping 

r:~‘by.” or that type of deal. Or when she moved job position, 

: 1 I Yeah. Monica is over there working for - ” like you said, 

i ; : legislative - le islative affairs, you said? 

iIr- Q %m-hmm. 

[IE: A So that kind of conversation with her. Or 

[I-:when Monica is coming in - you know, like that one day 

!: I :when she came in, Monica was coming in, and that’s it. it’s 

113: not like, “How’s Monica with her - with her job now - new 

~2: :job?” or how was she doing ,personall$ wdh her family. I’ve 

[::: never had a conversation WI h Betty II e that - gettrng the 

i2r:details in the personal side of her. 

123: Q Okay. Did Betty Currie ever express any concerns 

~3; : to you about Monica? 

[‘5: A No. 

.- 1 

Page 147 

A We keep Kleenex in the dinin room, on the table. 

is i We keep it - one in his private study, one in 9 he bathroom, 

:3:and one in the Oval Office at his desk, and one over b the 

: :fireplace, which would be the north side of the Oval O&e. 

.s.And then Bettv has a box of Kleenex there. f 5 : Q _ Okay. 

A 

Q 

Those are the places. 

On any occasion when you worked at the White House 

: ?:when Mr. Nelvis was not there - whether it was on a weekend 

: : ; 1 or on an evening - did Mr. Nelvis ever ask you whether 

: 1: J Monica had been in the White House, when you were there and 

: 2 : he was not? 

. j. 

.--, A No. 

:1;: BY MR. WISENBERG: 

.- :- Q Is there anythin 

i : g i that he thought might have rela 9 

that Nel was ever concerned about 

ed to Monica? 

A No. He - I think he was more concerned about - 

j f 3 i how do you say? - being personable with her, how her job was 

.:>:doing, more than anything else. .^_. Now! toward the President, no. No, I never seen 

if! Ianything negabve or positive. Just that-you know, her 

I: : just reflecting, “Hey, where is the President? How IS he 

I 3 .doing?” - that t 

Y 

pe of deal. But not - between the two of 

: I: : them, it was jus them conversating between the each other. 

._z. 

.-- Q What concerned Nel about that? 

Page 148 

A No, about her job. About you know, how - where 

.- -. as a intern 

I :going to the ? 

oing to one job, and then from that ‘ob 

entagon. And how is - how she’s 

d.). 

:; :job, and that t pe of deal. 

orng in her 

An 

j z ’ thelre say ini 

a am. I - I’m not going to pry on what 

1 nd I know one of them was because she was 

- j in t e Penta on. That’s all it was - talking to her. 

‘: 

; : 

Mi& WISENBERG: Sorry. 

1: MS WIRTH: That’s okay. 

- - BY MS. WtRTH: 

. 

.--. Q Do you Lewis Fox? 

A Yes. 

.. :. .--. Q Who is he? 

- A He’s a Uniformed Division Secret Service. He’s a 

: 5 : post stander. He’s not a 

: G :area -- up at the Oval 0 ffpe 

rmanent post stander up in that 

ice. He was more downstairs, and 

: - : then in the West Wing lobby area. 

--3. 

.--. Q Okay. And does Mr. Nelvis know Mr. Fox? 

.- Z’ .--. A Yes. he does. 

.___ 

.--. Q And they’re friends? 

uaintance, not as a friend-friend, going 

: I ; : terms of friends? 

.--. A Now, who? Between who? 

c:: 

Page 160 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

[:: Q 

i3: A 

Did she ever expressany exasperation with Monica? 

No. Again, Bet& Curne IS lake she’s the,mom. 

I 4 : She is, ‘What can I do for you. That s how Betty Cume IS. 

15: Q Would y’all ever - and when I say “y’all.” I mean 

[E :you and Nel or 

[::uniformed or nofy 

ou and Nel and/or Secret Service types, 

- drd y’all ever joke about Monica? 

I?: A The only thing - not joking, but just that 

r o.she’s a cute airl. I mean, that’s basrcallv tt - a 

Q Ever hear anyone say, “You better watch out. 

Page 151 

[ 1: You’re goirtg toNt the next Paula Jones”? 

i?’ 

L-, 

13: ‘MR. W+$ENBERG: 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

That’s all I have right now. 

14: 

Q Okay. You told us earlier that Monica would call 

iz:Nel in the pantrv. 

i7: A Mm-hmm. 

Q Do you know whether she would also call 

/zjBetty Currie on a frequent basis? 

110: A I - I’ve never seen her oersonallv on the ohone 

i I I jwith her, but to me, yes. 

r12: Q Okay. You never saw Betty personally - 

(13: ..~~ A I can’t - 

[14: Q -~ on the phone? 

I can’t remember her saying, “He 

a conversation with Monrca. g 

ut~or$ how you 

y can call Betty Currie. and I know she had 

,etty Curries phone number, especially if she 

[lg~was to come in and out. Like that day, she would have had to 

rzo;have a conversation, what time to come in. and all that. 

[21: So they would have to commumcate on the phone, 

[zz Ibecause I know when the Pentagon - you’d have to call in. 

1231You wouldn’t be able to just walk u 

[24:need to come in at this time.” So ip 

to the gate and, “Hey, I 

would be on the phone. 

(253 Q Do you know whether Monica would call Betty Currie 

- _____~___ 

Page 146 to Page 151 
2839 

BSA Glen Maes, 4/8/98 

Page 152 Page 155 

_ .. . . _.l__, 

[ :. to Tnd out whe*&r the President was around? 

r^. 

,-. A No. I’ve never seen it done - 

‘>‘ 

.-. Q Have you - 

- except for askin 

Ii j h&s the President doing?” you & 

us, like, personally, “l-&y 

now. 

i;iuls she r~~ti;~~~~ve(talked to you about that -a-y 

iii:k_ of? t k Nelv’ IS ever give any gifts Monica, tha: jou 

1 

!?l‘ A I know - I believe she gave him a gift, bti : 

!zi cr’t remember if he did or not. I know at one time he was 

:13:thrking about F ttin a gift. And again, they’re closer. 

(14 : I - Ris a possi ility t at she gave him spmethin 

3, 

9, i:;;&y;rthday and then somethmg for Chnstmas, t 

during 

at I car, 

;17j But again, I don’t know what the gifts were. I 

:18jdidn’t y you know. to me. it was like, you know. whatever 

[iglthey give them. they grve them. you know. I didn’t 

r201reaJy care. 

Q Did Mr. Nelvis ever give Monica any, like. 

I:iiW?de House trinkets - like presidential M&MS or - 

A. Oh, I’m sure. Everybody - I mean, me, I lzn 

!5jj:~~~~~,~~~~,wants them. I sah “Hey, come sea me 

I would give M& s to everybody and 

.: there. And then he left. and I didn’t communicate with him 

- -agaIn until I got ready to leave Martha’s Vineyard, just to 

i. make sure that when we were coming back, we were driving back 

.C ‘down. and that the Oval Office was taken care of, that he was 

: 5 : gomg to hold it, and then I’d be back at this date. 

.i So that’s -we always do that. no matter what - 

i’ : even durin 

y s : “Yeah. the % 

the weekends, you know, “How are things 

oss came in al!, day Saturday. He stopped % 

oing?” 

: ?: a couple h?urs on Sunday: 

y for 

.,-. 

,--. So its a constant t !ng between - it’s more on 

I 1: : the professional side and knowing that it’s covered. 

,._. 

.--. A Where was Nelvis when you were in Martha’s 

: : 3 -Vineyard? 

i:4. A 

; : 5 j We ended 

Nelvis was at the house that we were staying at. 

up having all of us at one time sa ing in one house. 

!iE. il_; Q All right. Was Nelvis there w X. 

A Yes. 

Ile you were there? 

,.i- .A.. Q i, i‘ 

i_ 5 f of made 

A 

Did you overlap at all? 

Yes. Yes. We overlapped for one night. That sort 

it very uncomfortable because we had two groups in 

; 2 : : there together in which we were sleeping on floors and all 

::‘I that - to get the other ones out of there. 

i23: 0 Do 

: 1: : with Monica from F)I 

ou know whether Nelvis had any communications 

artha’s Vineyard? 

.“i .--. A Not that I know or. 

Page 153 Page 156 

“Come on in,” and f 

I71 

[81 

191. 

A For a fact? 

Q Mm-hmm. 

A I mean, it’s very easy. I would say - it’s easy. 

,!. 

.-. Q /_I. L-_ 

;3: 

Aa 

Do you know 7 

He never menboned it. 

- whether he called her from Martha’s Vineyard? 

[4: A 

Q 

No, I wouldn’t know that. 

15; When Nelvis left, where did he go -when he left 

[ E. Martha’s Vineyard? 

r7. A When he left, he drove back down from there. We 

i 9 I had a van, had to take the ferry over, and drove all the way 

! s: back down to DC. 

I iy j after 

Q 

that? 

Okay. And did he go to work in the White House 

(1’: A No. 

(13: 0 Hewas- 

;14: $ Because the President - 

[:5; on vacation? 

i16: A The President was on vacation so no one - unless 

[: 7 ! we have to 

9 

o back for a reason - if they ha& a question 

[IS: about some hing with the flags, somethin 

[ 19: they’ll page us, and we may come in for t X 

is out of place, 

0 

at purpose. 

1201 Do you know whether he was home in D.C., or 

1: 11 wherever he lives, during the period of time when you were - 

[_‘?I A 

; 23: approximately. 

I would say yes, because he’s gone for two weeks 

(24. 

!Z51 

Q Oka.SoA Yea ! , he’d be with his family. 

[:ojl mean - 

1111 Q 

A 

Well, I’m ju.$ asking you,if you know that - 

IiiiMcrlica, here’s a bag of M&MS ? 

Have I physicall] seen him taken M&MS arz!. “Here, 

I - I’ve - I never seen 

i 14 1 him do that. But it’s- it’s that easy. Yeah, I would say 

r1sjhe could. I mean - 

!16j Q 

[l7#e pantry? 

So you’d keep a stock of those. Are they kept in 

!18! A No, we keep - all the M&MS -what we do s get a 

: 19 1 code of cases per week, and we keep them back - in the 

I 20 I back side of the oval dinino room. 

Page 154 

ill 

2 EThere’s other thin 

/;jdo~‘t know if you want know that. d 

s we have there tot. I 

e have chocolate; in 

~4 Ithere -Whitman’s chocolates - that are hand wrapped and 

IS 1 has the presidential seal on it. 

: 10 1 limrred source. 

But it% just little things with a seal on it. 

::; People get a kick 

‘13lpresidential seal.’ 

- a big kick out of it, “Oh, with the 

141 There’s like the M&MS. And those are the main 

Page 152 to Page 157 

______ 

Page 157 

Q - durin 

111 up in Martha’s Vineyar % 

the period that you were doing your tour 

, he - 

[3: 

14: 

$ Wtih his,family,. 

- with his familv. 

[51 A Right. . 

16; Q 

: i : wtiod of time? 

Did you communicate with him at all during that 

,* 

[ej A 

Q 

Just before departing. 

[ !I,‘, First Lady was 

Do you recall whether you told him that the 

I:;] A 

oing London to Princess Diana’s funeral? 

fiow that you mention it I believe I did. Because 

[ 111 that - that was the 1 that was like, it w& a shock 

~201 knowing that the Oval Office was going to be covered, and 

,__, ill :all _.. that _..__. 

Because I think it was, like two da 

:Iz i a half prior to the President leavin 

s or a day and 

[z4 1 that might have been the time tha P 

dartha’s b, meyard and 

I talked to him abo& 

~2 5 1 who’s going to cover the Oval office. 

OlCStarr 
2840 

Glen Maes, 418198 --. 

Page 158 Page 161 

Then we found out that they didn’t need one of us 

_ :o go with the First Lady. and that the President - see, no 

: c;1e knew if the President was going. I think that was the 

:zggest hitgn it. 

_ - 

Do vou know - either because vou know of 

: -turned around and he just talked to me personally.” And : - 

-:‘like. “That’s how he IS. ’ And the guy IS just ovetwhelmrnc 

.:. that way. okay? 

-. . 

MR. WISENBERG: I believe the - 

.d_ FOREPERSON: So it’s lunch trme. huh? 

MR. WlSENBERG: 

__: THE WITNESS. 

That’s right. 

Is that what that was? Cho.+ rme. 

; 5: Lets go to lunch. 

:?’ FOREPERSON: 

::,;forth. 

We were making inquiries c-ax and 

We’re going to be back, I guess - let’s say 

Ilijfrve after 2:O0. 

c:3: BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q I understand that you’re - fairly soon, you’re 

1 i: j going on a len thy trip with the President? 

A keah. I leave Friday. I - I ‘ust got back 

I i2! Saturday from, oh. about nine days out in 

i 19 j leave this Frida 

Africa. and I 

to go down to Santiago Chile. 

115; Q &kay. We’ll try to get you out today. 

120: A Oka 

[:?I MR. WlSiNBERG: We’ll do everything we cai. 

[;2: Five after 2:00? 

(23; FOREPERSON: Five after 2:O0. 

MR. WlSENBERG: 

Ii:!the witness be excused? 

Okay. We’ll see you then May 

!Zl 

::I Nothing 

Again, he puts everything out and displays it. 

is tagged saying - stating what the item is or where 

;I: it came from. 

‘-L That’s one thing about - he’s 

:I: memory -the President. And I believe 9, I 

ot a phenomenal 

s a photographic 

Page 159 Page 162 

:: memory, but he can turn around and - 

._. 

.- BY MR. WISENBERG: 

‘:. 

.- Q What makes you say that? What makes you- 

, .: A Because - 

-z 

.-. 

- 2 

- he’s got such a good memory? 

I’ve seen him take a list of names and this 

.- amazes me. Sixty names, and read throu h the’names, and next 

:: -thina. he starts callina off people’s names, 9. Ike - I can’t 

Cl! FOREPERSON: Yes, he may. 

12: THE WITNESS: Thank ou. 

(A lunch break was taken 

I:; until 2:06 e..m;) 

x om 1257 p.m 

[5: 

161 

i7i 

[El 

i:eveii’do that. - 

Or, you know, just reading books, as quick as he 

ii it reads through books. And he just impressed the heck out 

!:r:of me. 

[:z- Q Does he remember things you - I mean, you say you 

11; talk with him. You’re pretty close with him, right? 

1: __ A Right. 

. _< Q Does he remember things that you tell him about 

:-:yourself or your family? Like, does he remember those, or do 

;: ‘you have to kee 7 2. _. A &. I mean -well I mentioned that we had one of 

reminding him of it? 

__ - -.our staffers that really didn’t get to meet him personally. 

::.He was in Arkansas, met his famil where he’s from, and all 

__ -- that. And the guy says, ‘Well, tha ? s the first time the 

_. ^I: -president really talked to me. 

:1 Again, when we work - work with the President, 

: 5 we’ll work - 

Page 160 Page 163 

L Brief Interruption to proceedings.) 

Y MR. WISENBERG: 

0 All rioht. Carrv on. 

OlCStarr Page 158 to Page 163 

[9! 

flOi 

illj 

[II: 

Cl31 

1141 

il5j 

[16j 

1171 

ilsi 

1191 

I’01 

I211 

[?2] 

(231 

[24] 

[251 

(11 AFTERNOON SESSION 

MR. WISENBERG: Let the record reflect that the 

1 ii witness has reentered the Grand Jurv room. And let me ask 

ii j Madame Fore 

1:: 

FOEPERSON: 

non if we have a quorum. 

Yes we have a uorum. 

MR. WISENBERG: All right. Are t ere any 

17 j unauthorized ersons in Grand Ju 

B 

FOl?EPERSON: 

room? 

181 !I 

I91 MR. WISENBERG: 

Besi es mysetf no. 

[I01 FOREPERSON: 

Okay. You’re ‘oking, right 

Yes I am. Mr. 

THE WITNESS: Yes? 

M’ aes - 

1111 

[I:1 FOREPERSON: 

Cl31 THE WITNESS: 

- you are still under oath. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Thank you. 

114: 

Q Mr. Maes has Mr. Nelvis ever discussed wrth 

i:z;vou his plans to wnte a book about his exoeriences at the 

i17jWhite Hbuse? 

ilS1 A No. 

Q Has he ever discussed with you at all his intention 

j:i!to write a book about anvthina? 

izij A No. . - 

Q Has Mr. Nelvis ever told you whether he has 

I:Sirnade any efforts to contact Monica Lewtnsky since this 

[24 Isituation involvin 

[2s]late January 199 8 

her and the President became public in 

? 
BSA 

2841 

Glen Maes, 418198 XMAX(28) 

Page ‘I64 

A No. 

Q Okay. Has Mr. Nelvis discussed your testrmony 

i today wrth~ou~o, 

-: Cl Since thts story broke in January 1998. have you 

i-discussed Monica Lewinsky with Mr. Nelvis at ali? 

A No. 

:i BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q You’ve had no conversation whatsoever with Nelvis 

: about Monica? 

.:I A No, not Monica. 

Q Since storv became oublic? 

A Mm-hmm.- 

Q That’s a “Yes”? 

, then it’s true, I never talked to him 

:: E : anything about it. 

Page 165 

.I: Q Once you’ve retained an attorney - 

A Right. 

Q You have not. All right. What about before you 

: 1 -retained an attorne 

-: _-_ A Tha F 

after it became a public issue? 

s - I wouldn’t know the dates on that. 

_I Q 

$ 

All right., Well - 

:3: I mean, d you had a date, maybe I can - 

- whatever the dates are, do you recall, 

: ?’ before you got an attorney, whether or not you ever 

: : discussed with Nelvis the Issue of Monica, once it 

I: j became a~jo~~ublrc story? 

._ 

r 1 ~ :di+N,9+ ,,Q No, you don’t remember, or no, you didn’t 

___ -._____ .-. 

.--. A I didn’t discuss an hrng with him. no. 

. . . MR. WISENBERG: gkav. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q Okay. So when her icture appeared in newspapers, 

sa to Nelvis somethin II e: “Did ou see 

DI ,d ure In the paper?” &dRvou reacrthe 

“‘Did ou what liear what happened?” 

A 6 asual talk. like. “There s Monica.” Like. ‘What ,-- 

‘~3 .the heck is going on there?” l-had no idea what was going on 

; I L : until d was reported on TV. 

,-: 

.-- But it wasn’t like it was, ‘Well, did you know if 

Page 166 

: : : she did this or that?” No. It was just saw her on TV, 

-1. “There’s Monica.” Because I know Monica, he knew Monica. 

Q 

: I -Mr. Nelvis? 

But you had those types of conversation with 

2 A Since then? No. 

Q No,. since the story was in the paper - since it 

: 1 ‘broke in th; news in January. 

.: 

. - 

: 1 : 

Q ~%~+jo!re$i\our lawyer. 

A Before got m lawyer? Just that we saw her in 

::I : the paper and the news. Tha ‘s it. 

.--. BY MR. WISENBELG: 

: 

.-- Q You saw her in the pa 

: L -“Here’s Monica,” but no substantive d! 

er, and said something like, 

rscussion whatsoever? 

_._ 

.-- A Get into details about, you know - no. 

._< Q Well, forget about details for a minute. No 

: : - -substantive discussions whatsoever about what was 

_-- :. being alleged? 

._: A No. Just what we heard on TV. Again we didn’t 

: I I 

,.. 

.-- %e 

et into details like, you know, this is what we heard on TV, 

cause we were lookin 

[:I -newspaper every day. & 

You know, we looking at the 

e get newspapers every da You’re 

<--. r- -: looking at it like, “Hmm.” I’m looking through this, V&at’s 

:: L : going on here?” ,^;~ 

__ Q But no discussion like - for instance, as an 

Page 164 to Page 169 

Page 167 

:I -example, “I’m not surprised this has happened.” or. “Gosh, 

-. there’s no way this can be true.” I mean. no drscussron 

.;. lrke that? 

. A Umm. there’s a possibri 

j; ‘because it was on the newspaper or on % 

that we saw rt. 

and really didn’t 

;l:&onra,” 

.:’ et into substance with it. It was like, ‘Hey: there’s 

‘There’s - ” You know,. ‘There’s a artrcle. you 

f:: know, in that paper. Read the arhcle.” And that was I?. 

‘2’ 

; it f talking, “Hey ” 

We weren’t like*us - like us srttrng right here 

: 1: : is what she dr 

,.dyou know, $u~$;~;/;~~e~kthere, ;Tis 

last week. 

i:::didn’t get in that - that type of discussion with It. 

c:3: Q 

(14 I not exactly - 

Nel never said anything to you to the effect of - 

[:5: 

[Ii‘ -ci Okay. - but to effect,of, “I knew this was going to 

[I-: happen. lp not surprised - 

II”; Not toward that effect. 

!I31 ” - this has happened.” 

120‘ : No. 

i-1: 

- , r-7. L--. 

123: 

[24] 

[25: 

Q Pardon? 

A Not toward that effect, no. 

Q All right. 

A Nothrn in that substance. no. 

Q All righ 9 He didn’t say rt or anything like that 

[I; 

Page 168 

A No. 

[I!] A JUROR: 

; 3; know. HOW could 

What about, ‘There’s your girl, you 

ou let this happen?” 

i4! THE WI#NESS: No. 

is; A JUROR: 

I 6 I play with him - 

Anything like that? Because you used to 

[71 THE WITNESS: 

Page 169 

ilj So that’s wh 

r3?rv. 

: I j eah. its splattere CF 

in general, when you’re seein it - 

all over the paper, splattered a iI over 

i 4 j you 

And it to the point where you’re watching it constantly, 

know, what’s goin to happen next? 

[5! 

[ 6: says, “Don t sa 

[7] 

;r$Re;i;B;R;d ,our layers and they 

a thin And we just kep rt that way. 

I:51 

Q Well, lets talk about first when you - 

A 

Q 

So for me, what 1 witnessed - 

When you were there? 

A What I witnessed. What I witnessed. 

otcstarr 
2842 

Page 170 

(11 0 Oka 

(21 A No. fi o. 

131 Q 

[,]you’re there. 

Okay. Well. not what you’ve witncacd. but when 

151 A When I’m there. 

1-1 

-Q 

I76;you’re there 

I mean, are you saying that it’s inxxz&ble when 

- when you’re on duty up in the paq. that 

[rlllts impossibta - 

A Tonot- 

- for Monica to be in the Oval Offce study 

t23lno way. 

I20 Q Okay. Why is it impossible? 

1251 A Because I would know. 

Page 171 

111 Q Why would you know? 

121 A 

Q 

Because wa have - I have the access to knowing 

Oh 

!ihosed without kn 

ou woutd walk into the study w&h the door . 

tslwas there? 

&ing. if you thought tha Prssxtent 

A lf - tf I felt that the President was thae I’d 

176;opan the door. A ain that’s -you’re probabl thbJjrg’ 

( 8 ] there’s no way. ? ou turn around. The Pras d ent pu know, 

tslgiving hkn privacy. We walk in there, making everylbiq 

IlO]ls up. 

Q Okay. The uestion: If you thought the President 

I :: i of the Unitad States was in %le study - either alon or with 

I 13 1 somebody - if you thought he was in the study and that study 

[ 14 Idoor was &sad. you have the. kind of acd$ss that you% 

[ 15 1 allowed tDFlkp_3a$eJ:Udy wrthout knockmg? 

I161 

1171 A JUROR: h;lr. Maes - 

1181 THE WITNESS: Yes? 

[I91 A JUROR: -wh would oudothat? 

I201 THE WITNESS: g 

[zllthare and - 

yThere’s .rnes he may be bade 

A JUROR: R’ ht. But if the President lm. like, 

i::ithe down da that ou ha mentioned before - 

L.24 I 4 EWI $! NESS ? Rght . . . 

I251 A JUROR: - and my understanding earlier was that 

-_. ---~--_ __-- 

Page 172 

i 6 j he - say, be was in the study and he was resting on tit 

[7]chair I was talki 

[El A JUl%R: 

about - the mddng chair - 

Riiht. 

THE WlTNESS: 

t:~~%lr. President, are 

- I’d anna up (indii). .+. 

ou okay. sifl 

I111 d 

1121 

AAJ;R&Es/hy would you do that7 

: Because. I want to kceo track of 

13jwhere he’s at, because the a nts want to know wt&a’s he’s 

141at. Andthen,Iwanttomake %e door wasn’t shut by 

ls]acdident 0T nobdd went back there 

161 A JURO&: W Id oudothatonalloaasions? 

THEWTf’NESS:w It%arafttythathehas-hehad 

:i ;the door shut I mean, if I turned around and dountad tha 

I 9 1 times that he had that door shut in the private study, ti 

zo~might have been no more than 10 times out of ona 

::;few 

Because when he goes back there, and tZ%s been a 

occasions he’ll go back and sit down there 

231 blanket. cover himself up, and relax. and just - %%ybc! 

2 4 J 15.20 minutes - a catnap. And than he’s back up. So I 

zsltum around and make sure he’s all right. 

Page 173 

,* * 

;i;it? No. utforma-forrnvparsonal 

Agin. you know, it P mandato~;~~ldh”aYe 

i3ito make sure ~that evwvthti’is okay. up&&u~ with the 

.-,~ - --- --- - -~- -- - --~ -~-- 

161 And I turn arwnd and knock on tba door, 

t71Mr. President, are ycn~ okay, sir?” ‘Oh. I’m okay. 

rs]Glen.’ X&a sir.’ And than turn bade and then 171 

t91let tha Secra!&rvica knew. ‘Hey, the l%esident is back in 

tlolhis study.’ 

Andthereasonfofthat-toletthemknowthat 

i :: i ha% back in the study - is because when they’re posted in 

I 13 ]the Oval office - wa talked about the agent being dutside 

[141the Oval Office and puts&s, on tha grounds, they have a 

r1s1look-in-tha4&timaswherehe’snot . n#ht there. So l’ll 

t36~givatbamabaadsupthathe’sbackm atbackaraa. 

See so we amxnunicate. mars bow I cdmmunicata 

;$th the S4?aai San&?. 

BY MR WISENBERG: 

Page 174 

1191 A Right. Tha9o’ciockdodr. 

1201 Q Becauseyousaid thara’sasucbon? 

A Yasa vaarum effsct ’ 

I:: I right ham when t&t door opens up, pu “9 

ht ham (indicating) whan 

ts that door - 

1231. Q And ywr pantry doon. which are left ajar, jiik 

t24 lrn soma way; k that cam3ct - or make a sound? 

1’51 A Well. it - it - it pulls the door approximately 

Page 175 

t 1 ltwo to three inches. and you have m&at-tometal amtact 

t21-clack. Andweknowthathe’sbackthere. 

I31 Q Oka _ ttputkwhatdoofi 

A lt p& the pantry door, whii is 

I:Lcatad (examining doarmmt) - 

161 Q Thatlaadsfmmthapantryintothediimom? 

t71 A _Yes. ltwouldbethiidodrrigbtbara 

(81 

191 !l*;the-. 

;:!;the door. 

A I’msony. Righthere( That’s 

~:%at a do&la do& 

Q okay. ltptdtsit-thatdoorlsusually-ls 

~~~~6rpanintbebaUway. ft’saftushdoor.it’sdpansdon 

A Thisdoorisadoubledoor. Thisdoorbahvays 

[16]th43 hallwa . 

l-hen ywbavethisdoor whiiistbaffall-idoor.. 

f:~~Youhavaone.twd tbma-fourddorsontbat Idon’tkndw 

risiwhat the hedc this k fight here (indicating). 

Q _This k a - you’re talking an area that lodks like 

~~[~~ttt “A m%&%~r%&3m here, but I don~~&at 

1241 ’ Q lt’sncrtaroom. 

1251 A Yes. 

___. 

OlCStarr -- Page 170 to Page 175 
2843 

&SD. --. Glen Maes, 418198 XMAX(30) 

Page 176 Page 179 

r-. 

,- :3: 

13’ 

AQ Right. It’s apparently - 

Th.at should have a line through it. 

na 

-just some space or somethrng. 

Rinht 

A Anything IS possible, es. 

Q All n ht x 

z-take It tha: he - In t # 

Now, from t e example you‘ve ;ven. I 

e example you’ve 

% ::you knozrc. and you say, “Mr. President 

ive;n~v;~owa~~c 

+.e- you’ve 

:r’got a clcsed door to the study, you don’t feel free enosc- 

:c:just to wa!k In. You would knock and say, “Mr. Presrde??” 

:-:or some!nlng like that Is that - 

;- 

.-. A I alwa s knock, “Mr. President?” 

‘X Q All ng i t. 

:<t:not its oka to come in3 

And you wait for him to say w%:?er or 

.~> __ k 

;._; Usuallv. what he’ll do is sav. “Glen. I’m restrno ” 

Q Okay.* 

. 

_--, 

;:3: A And, “Okay. Yes, sir.” And then what we‘ll do is 

:: 4 1 as soon as that’s done. as soon as we get that acknow%&gment 

~:slfrom htm. we’ll let the aaents know he’s back In the shrov. 

il6j And then Betiy Currie - usually give her a 

II-: heads up. too, that the boss is back there and he’s res?-g 

: ~3 !Then Betty will know - you know, if there’s something 

; 19: important. Betty is going to go directly to the President 

[::!And she’ll walk into the room. 

[:iJ Just like if I needed to go in there for some 

LX 1 reason - take him a note - when you the personal aide !o 

!23!the President hand me a note, ‘We need to get this to tns 

iZ4 1 President. He’s - he’s off track here. He’s got this 

;zs!meettng to go to.” I’ll walk directly in and knock on the 

(1. 

is. .Q BGtbetween the presrdential bathroom and :?e 

i 6: pan:-?. corrAect? 

‘71 

Q 

Because there are four doors there, yes. 

Okay. I want to know which door is It that 

izjsome-ow metal clacls against metal when the President 

[;o;opers !he; o’clock door. 

111: Its the back side of the pantry - 

[I“ 

113; 

Q Okay. But - 

A 

Q 

-which will be into the dining room. 

Oka 

Y 

All right. And that is usual1 

I :t jthat’s open? It wou d be open when the 

a door 

Presiden Y opens the 

t : 6 19 o’c%ck door, or will it be closed when that happens? 

[i7! A It would be ajar, and that’s the suction pulls rt 

(~slout and slams it back in. 

Page 177 

Cl! 

(21 

:31 

[41 

[51 

1t. 

en the study is always open. 

The bathroom is usually closed. 

llj - Aa Okay. 

- and he is gorn 

i: 1 study. Lets take the occasions 

from the 9 o’clock door to the 

oes from the 9 o’clock 

14 ldoor to the study. Wouldn’t that be he occasion that you 

1 s 1 would tell the Secret Servrce that he’s s-r the study? 

A If he - if comes Into the study, we II let them 

:;i know. If he comes in the hallway and maybe will pass through 

lslthe - rnto the dining room for some reason, or he comes up 

lglthere and grabs him a Coke - he can grab him a Coke or any 

20) 

x 9 

pe of bevera 

21 It IS and dorna 

e. “Hey, guys, what’s up?” “Oh, we’re doing 

hat.” ‘Okav. Great.” And he walks back 

12 j into the OvalDffice. _ 

231 Again, we won’t let Secret Service know because 

24 1 he’s alread 

251 he’s gorng g 

coming to us. We know where he’s at. We know 

ack because the door is wide open, because he 

Page 178 

[l]Opened it 

Q 

~~jIfitlooks1.k h ’ 

Okay. You’re talkin when he goes into the study. 

I e es going to go for a ?- ~rrte. you tell the 

[ 4 1 Secret Service. 

[5! A Ri ht we’ll inform them. 

!61 Q OFay: 

[7] A An 

[s 1 the bathroom - !z 

rme he walks to the back, with the exception of 

w rch we’ll walk back there and see what’s 

:glup he oes to the bathroom, and back out. We won’t tell 

~:o~Secret%etvice that, either. 

.:?I 

-:z]already closed Q to Now* the “?a s u 

uestion to you, then, is: If the door is 

y -which you say you think you’ve 

10 times a year - if the door is already closed, 

to tell the Secret Service, since you’ve 

told them when he opens the 9 o clock door 

we wouldn’t know that. If for some reason 

18) he got back there, and the door opened up and he closed it 

191right behind him, then we’re not sure. Then we’ll turn 

?o!around and knock on it (indicating) and make sure everything 

3 I 1 all right with him. 

11: 

--. Q Okay. So its possible for him to go in without 

33 1 you knowing for sure? 

241 A It’s - it’s pretty hard, because251 Q But its possible. 

Page 180 

r: jdoor (indrcatin ). “Mr. President, I have a note for you,” 

[2; and bring it in ?o hi; 

:31 Q Oka But there’s at least one occasion - because 

:41 ou- 

:jl .i 

it’s an examp e you just gave - where you would 

neck. and he would say, Glen, I’m resting.” 

A 

ltjgot a not for you. 

Right. And I’ll turn around and tell him, ‘I’ve 

ii; enerally. 

Q Okay. So you would knock first. If he tei’s you 

r:ol8irn, right7 

he’s resting, you’re not going to bother 

::11 A 

~:-Ifrom a 

Yeah. Once he’s resting, then I’ll back away 

,__,.._... . 

i131 Q Okay. You’re not going to go in and have a chat 

r 14 :wtih him. correct? 

i:5; 

116; 

A No. 

Cl 

iii] 

1191 

i191 

A 

R%use this is the most private room - 

- In the whole White House, correct? 

2 Exactly. 

1201 

[?:I 

Q Okay.- 

A 

1 x 1 White House. 

That s for the West Wing now, not for the 

!231 Q In the West Wing? 

iY4] A The West Wing, yes. 

!I51 MR. WISENBERG: I’m sorry. 

Page 181 

I?] MS. WIRTH: Are you done? 

rl: 

.-, MR. WISENBERG: For now. 

!3i MS. WlRTH: Oh, okay. All right. 

I41 BY MS. WIRTH: 

I51 Q Okay. Did ou ever see Monica Lewins 

c 6; room where you knew the t: resrdent was already prese irenter m a 

i T! that room? 

:31 A Yes, that would be Betty Curries office space. 

!Sl Q Okay. When? 

[LOI A On many occasions when she stopped by to say hello, 

i 1: 1 and the Presrdent happened to walk into the office space 

r~lwhrle she was standin 

!13! Q Other t a 

there. having a conversation. 

an Betty Curries room? 

[:4: A Not as a room. The only other place would 

I 1s; be the walkway. 

[I61 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

[:;I Q Which walkwa ? 

[??I A f& 

[I51 Q 

Walkway-l, o and; Walkway-P, possibly 2 - 

On the map that 

WY 

ou were looking at? 

[:31 A 

,l Q 

- but normally alkway-1. 

i,t!with here7 

Okay. That’s on the map you’ve been dealing 

A R. ht. 

MR. W%ENBERG: I’m sorry. Go ahead 

OlCStarr 
BSA 

2844 

Glen Maes, 418198 XuAx131) 

Page 182 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q All nght. Did you ever see Monca Lewinsky enter 

a room whire ye”,“, thought the Presrdent mrght be? 

Q Did ou ever see the President enter a room where 

- you either knew or Y bought Monrca Lewrnsky was? 

. A 

: yes. and - 

Again, it would be Betty Cume. if he was there, 

‘; Q Betty Curries office? 

A Yes. 

one hme when you saw 

ou ever seen them enter a room together? 

..-. 

.- A No. 

‘. _. T Q 

A 

Have you ever seen them enter - 

i:!-that would 

Well., again, the only - what you were just saying 

be that time for the gift, and they walked in the 

::I .Oval Qffice together. 

.__ 

.-- Q I ‘ust said other than that one instance - 

‘^:- 

.-- A dkay. No. 

_.,. 

. ..l - did 

2 No. 

ou ever see them enter a room to ether? 

,^Z x .-- at would be the only time as toge IIl er, yes 

.‘ 

.c. 

.- 

; 

- 

._ 

-: 

::. 

i._. 

,-- 

,-. 

.--. 

_._. 

Page 183 

Q Did you ever see them enter a room in the company 

of anybody else, such as Betty Currie? 

A Yes. in Bettv’s office. 

the one 

.‘f. 

.-- 

. . . . 

._? 

.--. 

1::. 

_.-. 

i:. 

._: 

,- j. 

Q Okay. Youiaw them - 

A Meaning - okay. I threw that off. No. Besides 

time in the Oval Office. enterina a room toaether? 

Q Mm-hmm. 

A You want to rephrase that or - 

Q Did ou ever see them walking into a room togeth 

MR. WISENBERG: 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Wiih somebody else. 

Q With somebody else. 

;Y M~,thw~~m”N”,~,se? 

Q As an example, Monica. Betty, and the President 

into the Oval Office, into the hallwa 

OvAal Oio: study -the pnvate stu dv 

off the study, 

y. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

ier? 

.-. 

,_.. 

.-- .^. 

.-- z E$%e ever tell you that that had occurred? ^. A No. 

--: Q Did anyone ever tell you that they had seen 

ifi Monica Lewinsk and the President oing into a room together? 

-: 

,-- A 2 me, personally? #o,. 

Page 184 

Q To anvbodv else? 

A No. . . 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Ever see the three of them leave? Ever see 

.; the President and Monrca and any other person leave a 

; room together? 

A Not as to ether no. 

MR. WISENBERG: ’ All right. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

-. Q Okay. Did anybody ever tell that you that 

; i ! Monica Lewinsk had been in the Oval Oftice? 

,.. 

-- A sks. 

..~. 

.--. Q Who? 

. . A 

: i i the President. 

Nelvis. When she brought her family to meet 

-_ ; Q That’s the radio address time? 

;._ L- A Radio address. 

,-z Q Other than that time? 

: A No. 

.-. BY MR. WISENBERG: 

.-- Q Did you ever see the President leave a room where 

1 f ! you thought Monica had been in that room? 

--: :--. A No. 

,-; Q Did you ever see Monica leave a room where you 

t i;. thought the President had been in there? 

OlCStiWT 

Page 185 

A No. 

: s,Because you asked me - 

.6. Q That’s okay. 

A 

:slto get - 

I’m trying to go with what she’s saying. not 

‘9. 

._ Q That’s all right. That’s why I want make it cJear. 

[ ! 0 1 A Okay. 

‘l?! Q 

i:-;about - 

Other than that one incident that you’ve told us 

[ix. 

1:4: 

$ Right. That’s the only time. 

- afler Chnstmas - 

[LSj 

I?61 A0 Ri - 9 hat’s ht. the only time you can remember Monica 

i 17 1 leaving a room where ou knew or thought the President was. 

11s: A That’s t K e two of them walking out afterwams 

:I?: 

[?Oi AQ %zy: 

[?I] BY MS. XIIRTH: 

;-^I Q Now, to your knowledge, has Monica Lewinsky ever 

i;<j been in the President’s study? 

!24] A Not to my knowledge at all. no. 

!15! Q Has anyone ever told you that she was in hts study? 

Page 186 

[II A No. 

Q Okay. Has Betty Cume ever told you that Monica 

i: i was In with the President what you were speaktng to her? 

I41 

,51 .-> 

c l;nithhhK President? 

A No. Except again. for the -the only time Betty 

i tj and I ever had a conversation about her going into a room 

[ B 1 would be the Oval Ofhce that one time for the gift. That 

rs!was it. 

Q Other than that one time for the gift did ou 

i :y i ever have a conversation with Betty Cunie when Betty E urne 

f 1.2 1 told ou 

I l3lOva Y 

that you Monica Lewinsky was in the area of the 

Office with the President - either in the Oval Qffice 

[ 14 1 itself, or indhe st;dy or the drnrng room? 

!151 

Q 

I::ione time that 

Did Betty ever ask you - other than that 

Ty 

ou told us about after last Christmas in 

[ 19 1 December ‘9 - on any other occasion other than that has 

[ 191 Betty Currie ever asked you to walk Monica Lewinsky out of 

12 o 1 the White House? 

[:I1 A No. Just that one occasion. 

[??I BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Do 

ig:;White House, like t K 

ou ever remember Monica being at the 

rzslafter her birthday? 

e day of her birthday, or the day 

_ 

Page 187 

Cl1 A 

Q 

It is a possibility, but I can’t remember that no. 

You have no memo 

Iii White House the day after her birth ‘d’ 

of walking her out of the 

i:i 

A No. 

ay - 

Q 

A 

-when she might have come to get some gifts? 

i: i staff member to walk’her out. 

Again like I sard, it could - it’s easy for any 

i8i Q Okay. 

A So its not like Betty having to walk her out or I 

1::; have to walk her out because of someone inviting them in: 

; 1: j No, it’s not that way at all. 

1121 Q You’ve mentioned this Mike McGrath. who we 

:lsjtalked about. 

.--, 

::51 Q 

r:olto Mike? 

Right. 

You said he was a friend of vours? 

Yes. 

Closer to you than he was to Nel? 

Yes. 

Would you say that Nel is closer to you, or closer 

i?ll A Nel is closer to me. 

Q All ri 

ifzitruth and veracit 

ht. What is Mike McGrath’s reputation for 

- 9 or telling the truth? 

1241 A H%s a kidder. 

1251 Q Okay. 

Page 182 to Page 187 

2846 

ESA Glen Maes, 418198 

Page 194 Page 197 

A I know. It’s - : And I - 

AQ 

Do you belteve - A JUROR 

Q 

Okay 

I’m talkrng about based on our interazon with him 

i seriously - 

When you come here, we treat thts very 

: :ver a nine-year penod okay? 

.- THE WITNESS: Right. 

A JUROR: 

Rrght. ; THE WITNESS. 

and we expect the wrtnesses to aso. 

Q Okay Is he the kind of erson - I drz’t ask 

: r..s in relatron to these events - is he t I! e krnd of pe-son. 

i’ ’ drrectly what - your answer. 

I’m trying to get -- tell you 

: cased on your nine years knowing him and knowing people who 

:: riorked for him. who. rf he came into a federal Grant Jury 

-s. lyrng. or he’s not lyin 

I? 

? 

I mean,,,$our answer to is he 

“Yes” or “No And I’m rn a 

;.posrtion where I can 

-. - nght now. 

That’s the way I’m feeling 

_-- 

:::: MR. WISENBEIIG: 

A JUROR: 

That’s not the questron. 

.._. 

_--. 

That isn’t the question. I-- A I know. but it’s - ,-- .^_ !.._ Q I would expect anybody - we all expect everyone to 

::: dil the truth in the Grand Jury? 

[I: A But again, the prankster part of it oversedes (sic) 

i::-some of this. too. So it’s - 

_--_ BY MR. WISENBERG: 

.‘;: Q The question is: Based upon your knowledge of hrm 

i:::and his reputation - 

i .--. 

,.-. 

t Would he lie t,o ou? 

- rf he came tn ! ront of a federal Grand Jury and 

i f : j took on oath to tell the truth - like you took - is he the 

::s’ktnd of person who, based on J ::;-reputation. would tell the truth 

our knowledge of hrm and ho 

,_. : And it strikes me there are three - I can think of 

!zs i three plausible answers to that: “Yes, he would”; “No, he 

: I j : wouldn’t”; or “I’m not sure.” 

(2:: Now, I guess my uestion is which one - 

-_c. 

.--. A Mine wou 9 d - I’m not sure. 

Page 195 

Okav. So you’re not reallv sure he wou!d be the 

if end to tell the truth? _ 

A I - I’m stuck in a bind here, because I can’t talk 

ii-for him, and what you’re trying to push me to talk to him. I 

,:I can’t do that. 

i:: Q It’s really- 

,.- A And I can’t - I don’t what he said to the 

i I Grand Jury. I don’t - you know, to me, personally, ILe 

[I;-told you as far as I can. I don’t know if you can take 

;:5-tnat In context of I’m sayin him being a prankster, joking 

:I< around. You can talk to ot a er staff you want to about him. 

Page 196 Page 199 

I- -serious? Like, somebody became ill, or somebody died, or 

if somebod 

r::of you tal i 

had to have had a serious operation - where the two 

ed about it. and both of you were really concerned 

; : for - or this srtuation was so serious? In that serious 

ou find that Mr. McGrath was a kidded 

: I 1 truth can you think of, outside of the 

;:s way he is. 

::< A JUROR: 

rl- 

[Ii 

Mr. M$:;,l think - 

THE WITNESS: 

A JUROR: I’m having a problem understanding why, I 

! : - ;zess, you can’t answer. To me, it’s pretty clear tha: rf 

::: .ycu’re kidding. it’s in the nature of something 

;z: -serious. But rf you’re trying to be truthful, an 8. 

erhaps not 

rf you do 

!:r come here we expect peo le to tell the truth. I don? see 

jr-3at those two can be intekrned. Do you understand what 

iz;:lm saying? 

7-z I.._ THE WITNESS: I understand what you’re saying. 

Page 198 

2 

of the three - 

!rn not sure. 

Q Okav. 

:di A 

::I 

Put it that way. 

_-> Q And the reason you say you’re not sure is because 

: 6 1 of this histiry o;g;Fksterism that you re talking about? 

. ..> 

I 

-Q ‘Q!%y: Now telling somebody he made the cake, 

i:iwhen, real1 , you made the’cake - 

[Ifi: 

[I:: 

i Right. 

- IS an example, correct? 

[il; A Example, correct. 

[13! Q Now, of course,if I’m giving you a surprise party 

::q :- it’s a hypothetical. If I’m giving you a su rise party, 

;:s!and I tell you, We need you to come into t ‘R. IS room because I 

::slwant you to see something, and I need to show you somethrng,” 

( l:land, in fact, everybod 

: I e IThat would an examp Y e of not te lrng the 

is waitin 

9. Y 

to give ou a surprise. 

IS 

: 19 j that correct? 

ruth; 

:101 A That’s correct. 

[Zll Q 

[2: I him doing a 

All right. And again,, you’ve given an example of 

prankster-t 

;z;;people hepkegithe,ca Y, 

pe thing with a cake - telling 

e, when you really did it, correct? 

:24: 

;:;I Q Al?right. What examples of him not telling you 

[ 1: 1 mean when - 

113: A I’m trying to get why - 

[ifj Q Advanced? I mean - 

A Advanced - advancement to your next rank. 

[:E: 

1.71 

0 Okay. 

A That s very serious. And he knows it. He knows 

1;s j that it’s like a heartache with everybody on reeling in 

:: 5; information like that, or - if that’s an example for you. 

!201 Q Okay. So what‘s the example there? Give us the 

:zi!example, so we can - 

:--. A 

is;& you know, you’re advanced.” And, ‘Great. Good luck.‘* 

It would be like him saying, “Okay, Glen I heard 

(24 !And then next thing you know, you’re not. ‘Well, who told 

;25iyou that?” ‘Well, I just made it up.” “Doggone, man, don’t 

OlCStarr Page 194 to Page 199 
2847 

RSA --. Glen Maes, 41819% 

Page 200 

XMAXIYI 

Page 203 

And then the 

I was that Peter MC Gy 

turn around and -the way I heard .: 

rath knew a lawyer from the Starr s.38 ant 

‘1 :_ -ed around and kind of llke mstlgated this to make 

.: VzSrath do a statement 

:. : But a 

: c !a ded to McGra 9 h about ct. I never talked o Peter 

aln. that’s -that’s hearsa 

Y 

I never 

: - irc;t It. ‘i. 

,- Q But what I’m hying to get at is - or one thing 

: ?- I’: :o get at IS: What was the context of the discussion? I 

!I:-rean, I take it, 

::: :ge: a call from Fz 

ou’re not up in the antry. and ou doni 

tephen Smrth out o P Y 

! 1: : saj:ng, “Hey, guess what7 

the clear b ue sky 

c::: A Well. ti was like, “Mike 

114 -s,ytimes we call him MI& and we t 

‘s coming down.’ Whim 

ear Mikey or MI& D 

.:. be .^ doi; 

r callmg you up, say. “Hey -” Or paging you. I 

that:” 

::get pa es - lake, I 

:i :worne about it. 78 

et a pag?. I mean. It’s IIke yo,u‘re 

ell, who s$agmg me? What s going 

cj:on?” Just like now I got page (mdlcatmgl. And he 

: c: kids around. 

r-1 

i 3 j the 

There’s times when he would turn around and get on 

ager and put numbers on there. or load R up with all 

[ 9; km .B s of numbers. Like, ‘Will, what are you doing? Don’t be 

:o?doing that.” ‘Well, I’m lust ktd&ng, around.” Like, 

Ai. 1. ~“Doggone. this is - this IS my life. 

12: Q 

: 3 J from McGrath? 

You remember each of those two things happening 

141 A Mm-hmm. 

151 Q Number one. he said, “I heard you got advanced,” 

16: when you hadn’t been - in ran.k. And then another one would 

1: :be pagmg ou with some- win 

lel 

i5lYou ot it.” And next thin you know, ii would come back 

201 nega 9 we. 

kl Like.“Youf it. !’ 

you a page that - 

ou got it. You got advanced. 

‘Well, where di you hear d from?” And 

1: !then, ‘Oh, I didn’t hear it.” Okay. Great.” 

22: 0 Okay. So those would be two examples of 

zj:non-prankster I in by Mr. McGrath? 

141 A i% n 

15 1 messing with - 

you’re messing with your job. You’re - you’re 

Page 201 Page 204 

:3’ Q All right. Are you ever aware of him mg when 

ICY i questionedAby a superior on a se!io~s offiual m&te r5‘ 

llj 

;2 1 separate jobs. 

No, not - again, his lob and my Job are totally 

:: 1 or not 

Q Is he the kind of the 

R” 

rson who would know whether 

r 

ou’d been advanced - whet 

Ion, by the way? 

er or not you’d be given a 

; s 1 promo 

16! A Oh, yeah. Anybody can find that out. Any one of 

17 1 our staff member can find that out. 

18: 0 

: 9 1 to make I 

You mentioned something about his brother - I want 

%. 

ot this correct. Did you mentton - 

70; Peter McGrath. 

,i --1 Q - 

~2 ~somebodv on - 

something about his brother knowing 

udge Starr’s staff? 

A Right. 

Page 202 

[:. AQ And his brother is who? 

:1. ,-l Peter McGrath. 

i3: 0 Okay. 

i 4 : brother knows? 

Who IS the person on Starr’s staff that his 

[S; A 1 have no idea. 

ii‘ Q How do you know that? 

1“ 

18; 

A Just hearsay. 

Q 

A 

Okay. How did you hear that from? 

rizistaff members. 

I heard it from a staff member - one of our 

:i: Q Okay. 

1-. A And the staffer member, his name is Stephen Smith, 

! 5 j S-t-e-p-h-e-n Smith. 

:3: 0 

A 

Okay. What does he do? 

15: He - what he does is he runs the White House staff 

I 6; mess in the basement level, where the main dining rooms are. 

i-’ 

i4j A Q And Oka\ e just mentioned, “Hey. what’s going on?” 

I 91 Isaid. “I - I have no idea.” And then, next thin I 

TO! know. ‘Well, Peter McGrath mentioned it” An 8 that’s - 

2 i ; that’s basically where I come up with it. 

l?> Peter McGrath - I says, “Peter - ” because I know 

13 i he’s a lawyer from the past, because we played basketball 

24 1 with him -with him and McGrath. We ahvays had a team on 

zj; Saturdays or Sundays playing basketball. 

Page 200 to Page 205 

r::.crnlng down. you know - you know, “He’s coming down7 What’s 

! i E be doin ?” “He’s going to testify in the Grand Jury.” And I 

I:-.wzs. 7/Qh at the heck is he’s doing?” 

!I;- And then not knowing this article,, and then that 

[ 13: a”_de come out. So I have no idea of time frame of it, 

Page 205 

[ 1.ti-e same rank as I am - E-8. But he runs the show down 

[z:there. So in the lower basement area, that’s what they run. 

That’s why the relationship between them are closer 

I: j than I was toward the end. because they’re workin t 

[ s.k?d then I saw less of him because I’m up in the 8 val %:- 

[ 6 :m Nelvis, and we’re up there. 

[7‘ A ain, it’s not like us comin down constantly all 

[ 9 : day long an8 “Hey. how you doin% dke?” “Great.” And go 

[ ?.bxk upstair& That’s how - how 

i 15: ber*een us were. So - 

e working relationship 

[I;: Q My question is: Is there any - or I don’t know # 

[l?:tts was the question or not, but my question now IS: Do you 

r13:w-sider that a little odd that you would be talking about 

[:3 ‘Mse McGrath and his testimony befqre the Grand Jury, but 

[ls.yctive said you never talked about with Nel, even before - 

LIE. 

[17: : N_“, even ltwasnt- before you got an attorne ? 

118: A To me, it was - I hadn’t been tot 7l e Grand Jury 

119: I ccn’t know anything about it. It’s like, I wasn’t called; 

izc- I nas,n’t sub 

~~:~me~t~oning P o me Mike was coming down. And it’s no 

oenaed. And then just - Stephen Smith 

/ 

ust 

like me 

[:z: tvzg to insti ate. 

[?3:to get? Wha P 

like, ‘What information are you trying 

are you trying to tell me?” 

t24: I never questioned it. because he was just telling 

[25:me directly, hey, he was commg down to testrfy, appear to 

OlCStarr 
2848 

BsA Glen Maes, 418198 

Page 206 

1. the Grand Jury And I -- to me, I was lust like. ‘Well. 

Page 209 

Xhu.m5) 

:,Grand Jury did ou talk to anyone other than your lawyer? 

. A ALout recervlng? 

‘2’ Q 

.; testrmony toda 

About anythin to do with receiving It or your 

4- 

,i‘ 

.-. A {es. there was - 

or the sub)e 

0, Q 

_-- 

: A 

giay finish the question. 

,?: Q - or the subject of Monica Lewtnsky? Go ahead. 

:31 A Not the subject When I received it, I notified m 

: I:! commanding officer. I infoned my command master chief %a 7 , 

!I*. ) “It looks lrke po:srbly the 25th of March I’ll be going to 

[ ::! the Grand Jurly 

,, j. And I a so nohfied Nelvrs about it And the 

j: 4 i reason for it is making sure that we cover the Oval Office. 

::51 Q Oka 

:i6] A And 7 would have that time off. And then the dates 

!:~lchan 

113 j what 9 

ed. From the 25th, it changed over to now. So that’s 

started with. 

[I91 But any other information, as in talking about it, 

rzzlno. About Monica, no. 

!?I] 

~23: him an 

.s 

,Q 

hmg 

When you talked to Nelvis about it, did you teil 

[ 2 3: to test! 

other than the fact that you’d been subpoenaed 

on a particular date? 

!14] A Right. Just so we’d have the Oval Office covered. 

!2S] Q Did you tell him anything other than that you were 

I ‘okay ” 

MR. WISENBERG: I’m sorry. I keep butting In 

MS. WIRTH: 

; Are you done? 

That’s all nght. No, that’s okay. 

_. MR. WISENBERG: For now. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

.>: Q Okay. Mr. Maes. have you ever seen the President 

3: have any physcal contact with Monca Lewinsky? 

A Ph 

:i i shoulder, or what 7 

s~cal contact. as in ma 

c! 

be hand around her 

saw on TV with the VI 

Q 

eotape. 

--7 

--. 

: 3 : have you seen 

Aside from what you’ve seen on television, what 

ourself? 

:14: A Just went up there. like, patting her like this 

-:j’shoulder (indicating). That was it. 

.:E] Q Okay. Has anybod else ever told you that 

.:I 1 anlhnonica LewinsRvY 

: :-: the had seen any h sical conta 

’ 

between the President 

.0’ 

--, A No. z T-1 Q Did anyone ever discuss with you the fact 

j s f i that Monica Lewinsky was named as a witness in the 

: I 2 1 Paula Jones case? .^_ .-3! A No. Everythin I saw was on TV and the newspaper. 

._4’ .- 1 Q Aside from Tl? and the newspapers? 

._:, _-2. A No 

Page 207 

. . .-I Q Anyone at all? 

:;i 

A No. 

Q Did you ever hear Monica Lewinsky talk about the 

: 3 j Paula Jones case? 

‘5! A No. 

0 Did Betty Currie ever discuss with you 

/;ithat Monica Lewinsky was named as a witness in the 

: I; Paula JoneAs cam? 

:91 

113; Q Okay. I believe I asked 

: 11 J knew of any gifts exchanged between Monica and the President, 

ou earlier whether you 

: ;z land you sard no: is that correct? 

1131 A 

: 14 1 ob.ect in. 

The only one I told you was that she brought an 

1 

I have no idea what it was. And that was the 

: 5 1 on y thmg I ever saw exchanged between the two of them. 

.-I: Q Okay. 

.-., A Not exchanged between - yeah, between her giving 

: 1: 1 him, not him givin her. 

::3: 0 Dij anybod ever tell you that she’d given 

‘-51 him any gifts or that he - 

-r:?her anv aifts? 

);I e President - had given 

.~~, -q. 

.-_! - "A No. 

.^3’ Q ,Did Betty Currie ever discuss with you that Monica 

‘!: i had receivid grftft.from the Presrdent? 

--i’ _-a: 

Page 208 

‘1: Cj Okay. You’re appearing here pursuant to a 

::;subpoena$ th;Lsorrect? .2* .a. 

.:: Q And when you received your subpoena did you talk 

: 5 1 to anybody about it, other than your lawyer or lawyers’! 

0, A 

._: 0 

No. I’ve talked to my lawyer. 

.?i 

Other than your lawyer. 

:i! 

Aa $“,;.I talk to my lawyer? 

. . . . e-1 A Okay. ..,3 

..~/ plness excused to confer with counsel.) 

--. 

.13] MR. WISENBERG: Let the record reflect that the 

: :: Iwitness has reentered the Grand Jury room. And do we have 

: 5 1 a quorum? 

.:<I FOREPERSON: Yes, sir. 

--. MR. WISENBERG: 

-1i;theGrand Ju room? 

And are any unauthorized persons in 

:19j FOXEPERSON: No sir. 

1 ? ] MR. WISENBERG: All right. 

.--. FOREPERSON: 

THE WITNESS: 

Mr. Maes, you’re still under oath. 

._^, __! 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Thank you. 

:I?] 

.I4i Q Okay. So the question before you left the room 

I 5 1 is: When you received the subpoena to testify before this 

OlCStarr 

[I I subpoenaed to testify on a particular date? 

[‘I 

Page 210 

A Nothin other than the date and time. 

[31 Q Since ph. IS matter has been reported in the 

[4 I ress in January 1998, other than your lawyer. and other 

~51 P han conversation that you’ve already told us about with 

16 1 Stephen Smith, have you discussed with anyone else at the 

[ 7 1 Whtte House any of the subjects that we’ve covered today in 

IS 1 your testtmony and the sub ect of Monica Lewinsk 

19) A Not as in su b. ]ecI matter with indivi dy 

? 

uals. no. 

[lOI Q 

[ 111 absolutely 

Okay. So you’ve discussed Monica Lewinsky with 

no one, other than your lawyer, since this matter 

L 12 1 became public? 

[13! A My wife, saying I saw her on TV, “There’s Monica 

: I 4 1 again.” I might have discussed that. And, “Look what 

::slthey’ve put in the newspaper,” meanin 

9 

that - that magazine 

[ 161 right there (indicatin ). I says, “Look a this what they 

[171drd to Mike and wha 9 

IIRI~S I went with it 

Mike’s doing.” And that’s about as far 

,_“,__ . . _ _ . _ . 

1191. A 

izo!iob that muc 9, 

ain, my - my wife doesn’t even really know my 

i21j- Q Have you talked to anybody at the White House 

122lcounsel’s office? 

1231 A No. 

[141 Q Okay. Have you discussed of the subject of - 

1251 A UhhPage 211 

[II Q Go ahead. 

A Yeah to restate that - when this first broke 

jiiabout us ossibl being subpoenaed there was a time when I 

[ 4 1 talked to g heryl Kn. ills. 

15 1 possibility of us 

And she just &formed us there wat a 

161 I sa 

being sub oenaed. 

[7]“Yeah.” So, 4 

s, “Oh, tha don’t sound ood.” She goes, 

ou, puys, tL;s a possi&tg of doing that, 

[ 8 I so, you know, we I have to robably see a out getbng 

(9 1 lawyers, or there will be pro ably lawyers involved in 

rlolthis.” And that’s about as far as we went with the subiect. 

I111 Q Okay. 

, 

[I21 A 

[13ja possibilit 

So it was kind of like a heads up on it - there’s 

i:41 ?I How did YOU obtain the counsel who’s here today - 

[ i 5 1 your lawyers? 

[I61 A Howdidl- 

[I71 Q How did you come to hire them? Were they 

! 18 1 recommended to you by anyone? 

Cl91 A I have to talk to the lawyers about that. 

[ZOI MR. WISENBERG: Well, why don’t we - well, we’ll 

121jwait and save it until the end then. 

[:?I MS. WIRTH: Okay. 

1231 MR. WISENBERG: 

I241 BY MS. WIRTH: 

Why don’t we do that, we don’t- 

[251 Q And also, we have a pending question on the phone 

-~--__ 

Page 206 to Page 2i 1 
2849 

BSA Glen Maes, 418196 XMAX(36) 

Page 212 

I 1: number. Have you dscussed that with your la 

:; A 

ye? 

No. I’ll do that the same time. I I wnte 

: ; ! that down. 

MR WISENBERG. We’ll want both the curre-: one in 

i:ithe pantry and the one before it was changed. 

[6: BY MS. WIRTH: 

[7‘ Q 

[pi: 

Okay. And just on the subject of lawyers I I 

$Il 

oing to ask you how you came to hire your lawyers. We-e 

[ $1 ey recommended to you by anyone? Did anyone su 

[ :o; their names? Who is paying them, If anyone? And w II 

ges: 

e!-cr 

1 :I lyou know of an ou. or whetter 

[ 1~ 1 anybody has 

arrangements !o reimburse 

to Y d you you’re gotng to be relm .‘bursed for 

r13lyour attorney’s fees. 

1141 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q And whether or not there’s a ‘oint defense 

I:z;agreement any kind that you’re aware of tha / 

[ 17 1 are involvg with. In other words, shanng - 

your lawyers 

i:tipiece of pa 

I II have to wnte all this down. 

r or a napkin or somethmg. 

If you give me a 

(201 ge 

A 

Okay. All ri 

(211 Because all 9 hese questions - 

ht. 

I221 MS. WIRTH: 

;z3]telephone numbers. 

Here you go (handing paper). The 

[24j BY MR. WISENBERG: 

[251 Q First is the phone numbers - any phone numbers we 

ri 

Page 213 Page 216 

I 1 might have asked you about. I think particularly, we asked 

‘zlabout the pant 

:31 A veah those two phone numbers. Okay. 

.4] Q The $econd is: How did you get our lawyers? In 

jslother words. who referred you to your lawyers? hho is paying 

Elfor your lawyers? And if you’re paying, do you expect to 

7 j be reimbursed? Have you been told you’re going to be 

8 1 reimbursed? 

.ziinformation about you with other lawyers. 

And the other is: Are your layers sharing 

-. > A Riaht 

.-. Q -St least a part of that-day? 

:3. A Oh, yes. I was working that evening, too. 

“‘ Q Oh. reallv? 

the - you know, if I can recall, it was 

usually between 10 and 11 o’clock 

, when that happens, then I’ll come in 

e sure that I’m in by 9:00 - even 

;: 3 :sometime 8:00, but normally, 9:00 - to ive us an hour to 

::::set up for them. 

for a meetin 

It only takes me abou P 15 mmutes to set 

: : z 1 u 

: 13: rP. elvis and did t 3, 

like that - a bilateral meeting. And then 

e service, that I can recall. 

:::; Q 

i-i; 

.--. A 

Now, that’s in the morning? 

Q 

That was in the morning. 

I16: 

A 

But you say think you were there that evenin ..i. I was - yeah, because I - once I go to work, hen 

i : 3 i I’m there until the President leaves. 

9, 

too? 

!I11 A Oka. 

[12j BY ~.s. XIRTH: 

Q Okay. And since, you know, the story invotvmg 

I::iMonica Lewinsky and the President became public in late 

[ 15 1 January of 1998, have you had any d.iscussions whatsoever 

I I 6 1 with the Pylde!!. about Monica Lewmsky? 

i17j 

I18i Q Abqut any alle 

; 19~ President rd “,o,,~ca Lewms &3 

ed relationship between the 

y 

[ZOl 

(211 Q Have you had any such discussions with an@dy else 

I 22 I in the White House? 

i53i A No. 

1241 Q 

I251 A 

,“o”,, you ever discussed it with Betty Cunie7 

Page 214 Page 217 

:11 Q Okay. 

A Again, before all this, when it first came out, we 

ii]saw it on TV said “Hey there’s Monica.” Or Linda Tripp. 

i 4 I You know, ahd it’s’ like, ;ou know, you’re riqht there 

isjsitting. 

_ 

[61 

[7 1 that.” No. 

It’s not like, ‘Well, they’re bad 

It just happened to be - the #J-is right here 

eople and all 

[ 8 1 (indicatin ) looking at TV and hap en to see - or an 

19 1 article in &k newspaper. *here’s ionica:’ 

101 And - because, a ain. Monica was a friend. You 

: 11 know, Monica was there hrou hout the room, and we were 

;zltalking about before, in her ?f? o ce space. And here now, 

13lwe’re seeing her all over on worldwide news. And like, 

14 Ithis is national. It’s not, like, just in D.C. This is 

15 1 the world now. 

::;“Look at Monica.” So its - 

So we did happen to see that, happened to just say, 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

She was shocked. like I was. Same thing wrm 

[ 24 j Nelvis. They - all three of us were shocked about it. 

[251 Q How did she express that shock? What do you 

Page 212 to Page 217 

Page 215 

remember about how she acted’ 

A And .ust In awe. like. What -what’s going on 

: here?” And iust - t c, at’s how I -the onlv wav I can 

.I explafn it. ’ 

, , 

Q All right. Shocked. llke she can’t believe this is 

i. happening’ 

A 

5’ Q 

. _. _. ‘d A&pposed to nervous in any way? 

.., 

--_ A 

Q 

Not nervous -lust shocked. Like, ‘Wh ?” 

._. Were you there the night -the day an /or mght 

i< f that President Zedillo of Mexico visrted7 

II 

:+: A Of Mexico? Yes. 

--_ Q 

_. _L_ A 

Okay. Were you on duty? 

Yes. We had a bilateral meeting with him 

: -: that I can recall. Because I was down in Mexico with 

1s: Sandillo (sic), down there. 

- 2. Q All ri 

’ :: on November 13th. --_ 9 

ht. But I’m talking about when he came - 

believe, of ‘97 he came here? ^. __! -7. 

--, 

ZjAa %tA We served the bilateral meeting for him in 

al Office. 

Q All right. So you were on one duty -- 

i:;jthe Ov 

--:- .--. 

.. 5, Q 

if 3 i that night? 

All right. Do you recall how long you were there 

.-. .--I A At least until the President left. 

._-, 

_--_ 

.-_, 2 &%%r time that was. 

.e.> Q So if we have logs that indicate the President was 

iT;fthere until whatever in the Oval Office area - as an 

:: : example, 9 p.m. - ou’d be there? 

--. A Be t X ere. And usually 30 or 45 minutes after he 

:? i leaves office, I’m still there. 

:i. Q Didqou see Monica Lewinsky there that night, if 

: 5 j you can remember 

E : A No. 

_. Q Did you see Betty Currie there that night, if 

2 ; you remember? 

A Yes. __^j 

,--. Q If we’ve - 

r>-. A Now, what - what time were you talking about? Are 

i !: i you talking 9 o’clock at night? 

.-f’ :--. Q Anytime? I. ,. _-II A 

_--_ Q 

Well, just give it a - 

; 

: I’: all day. 

A 

Late afternoon/early evening. 

Yeah, she was - that I know of, she was there 

I-2. 

,--, Q 

A 

Okay. Do you know if she was there - 

.- :‘ She 

j E f uSually stays - you 9, 

ets in at 7:45 in the morning.,and then she 

now, depending on the President - if 

:L:. the President is late, then she’ll leave. But normally, 

::I: she’ll - she’ll sta until approximately 7:30, 8 o’clock. ‘^i. __ Q Arniaht? 

A At niGht. 

Q Okay. You don’t recall seeing 

OlC-Starr 
2850 

BSA Glen Maes, 418198 xIM:;37) 

Page 218 

Vawa Lewrnsk there’ 

A t& 

._ 

.i AQ z., seeing her? 

tt s a - it’s a great ossibiiit Again, 

: tlere’s friend of hers that - acqualn P antes. 

: : ‘zr her to be there. 

!!ioitseasy 

,-- Q Okay. Our investi ator have uncovered information 

,: I t;at suggest she was in the Oval 6ff 

: :I approximately 20 minutes that night. 

ice study for 

,__ 

..: 

; 

. 

.- 

A No. I can’t - 

Q But you didn’t see her there? 

A see that happening, no. 

Q Pardon me? 

A I-I-no,Ididnotsee,andI-Idoubt-l 

1 Ii very much doubt that would happened. _^. 0 All right. Because if it did hap n, it would 

tif certainly be an example of her being there WI .p” hout you 

:I:-knowing about it; is that correct? 1^7 _. A Exactly. 

.^. Q Our investigators have uncovered information to 

j:;-suggest that she might have been in the presence of the 

Page 219 

:: President in the Oval Office study for approximately 

:L M) second; I tkf It. you have no knowledge of that? 

.: 

‘L. 0 A?d that also would surprise you if that happened 

i :. wrthout you knowmg it? 

-. A Yes. 

. Q 

Ii by Be 

Now, if she came to visit - if she was WAVEed in 

: :.expect s 

Currie and came to visit Betty Currie. you would 

o see her around Betty Currie s desk - is that a 

;: I. fair statement? 

r.. A It won’t be a fair statement because of the 

.._. Q So you not only might see her around Betty’s desk, 

i : E -she would probablv come to see vou? 

Right. 

And you don’t recall that happening? 

No. 

You mentioned and incident on -was it on the 

i-1 A 

:--. 0 

:Z tnp to Spa;? .^. _-7 

.-- Q 

Trip to Spain, yes. The President had - 

You mentioned - 

Page 220 

A - a summit. 

0 - an incident where you - 

_ where Monica was walking by, and you as R” 

rhaps two incidences 

ed her if she wanted 

: to see the President? 

.I A Ri ht. 

Q W?I the 

-I world would vou azk’“her that? 

world would you do that? Why in the 

A * Because, again, her being in there, and we were 

f 1 seeing her all the time. That the President was right there, 

: : we’re In a foreign country. Again, the President talking to 

: her. We turn around and says, ‘Well, you want to come out to 

I Me hall and say hi to the President?” 

We’re in a forei n country now. I mean. it’s no 

i anger oui ballgame. 30 I just suggested rt to her - me, 

F personal1 , asking her if she wanted to do that. She 

< declined 0th times. 

Q What was it like - I mean, it’s like you and the 

I President and Monica and nobody else IS there for the 

_I Americans - in Spain? 

A No, you’re talkin 

rpyou have Secret Service, you 

ot embassy $a , you got - and you got the 

mean, it’s - In the hallways alone, you 

have up to 300 people - 

.-, 

.-- Q So why Monica? 

__ A -just in the one hallway. 

OlCStarr 

Page 221 

Q So the question IS: Wh 

.: jworld. did you ask Monica. apparently 

of all the people or :e 

&ft,ce. if she wanted I: 

! 3: see the President? 

ii: I mean, what is it about what you knew about MO-XX 

,j Ithat had you asklng her if she wanted to? 

Because talking to the President. You know 1 

llke that. talking to him. 

‘2; A 

Okay. 

.,. And ‘Hey, did you want to come back hereT’ 

I13! Q Let me interrupt you for a second - 

!111 

[i?j Aa Okay. - because you say “talking to the President ’ &es 

: 13 I that mean you talking to the President. or the fact that when 

!:4 i ou were back in the White House, you would see Monica a-c 

I 15: 7he President talkina to the each other? 

il6j 

[:‘I 

A RighI. 

Q Is it latter? 

!:a: 

I181 

A Yes. 

[zo] that he wanted ou to see if Montca wante 

1211 

,” Ty. Did the President s?ges! tp {pu in a-t way 

o v~slt Im? 

[?_71 0 In’Spain. 

‘131 A I never approached the President about it at al. 

Q Okay. 

A It would have been on myself doing it, to achzlly 

Page 222 

!lldo this. I mean - 

Q 

I:italk to the President back at the White House. 

It was based on the fact that you knew she Ii& to 

141 A Right. 

151 Q And on nothina else. 

161 Q Nothin else. - 

1’1 Q All righ 9 And she declined both times? 

‘81 A Both times. 

0 

r ji{information with the Grand Jury 

Has anybody suggested to you that you share that 

-that Monica. on two 

[ 111 occasions, declined to see the President when you gave her 

[I z 1 the oppott;nltyioHas anybody suggested - 

,111 

L--I a 

I::jGrand Jury? 

- that you share that information with the 

[I61 A No. That’s me, personally, saying it. 

[Ill MR. WISENBERG: Okay. 

1181 .~.. BY MS. WIRTH: 

[I91 Q How would you characterize Monica’s relationship 

rzolwith the President? 

1111 A Casual talk, friends. I didn’t know the whole 

I:? 1 back round about Monica. I had no idea. Just like some of 

::3lthe o 9 her staff members - interns or volunteers - mainly 

[24 Iinterns we have around there. So a lot of times I had no 

[zslidea on their backgrounds. 

Page 223 

Ill Q Based - 

I21 A I mean, they’re just in there to do their time, a-d 

131 they leave. So when she turned around and left that 

14 I- and she would she sav hello and walk down the ha Iwav. 

i5jThen she moved into thi next position you had in the 

P 

oslbon 

’ 

! 6 1 East Wing. 

Again, it wasn’t like a daily basis bein 

Ii j the President no. And again it’s just casual tal a 

around 

(9 1 President, anb then she woulb leave. 

to the 

1 :yi 

Q Okay. And if this was just casual talk why mid 

[ 12: rhe United States on a foreign trip? 

ou ask her in Spain if she wanted to see the Presiddnt of 

A Because when she says “How is the Preside-c 

i::idoing,” I said, “He’s doing great.” And $t the time - 

1151 because we - see, when we travel we control an area, 

rlslwhen we travel. And it’s like 

~171 here. We have a room, a 

ou have on the diagram 

hal Y way, for the U.S. staff. 

1181 Again.. she was with her boss on the trip - 

[lslwhich was, again. with the Pentagon. I don’t know, it was 

1 x 1 under secreta 

[zl]s!aff, and she x 

of the Navy, or somebod 

appened to be there. So Y or me to bring her 

She was with ther 

[zzlback to the U.S. side. I can do that any time. There won’t 

(2 3 1 be a problem with it. 

And so - but again, she was with her boss. They 

igliwere busy. She - I guess, as a - I’m not sure about her 

Page 218 to Page 223 
2851 

BSA Glen Maes, 4/8/98 

._ 

Page 224 

I positlon. What - she was a sesetarv to him? But she was 

: busy wrth what she was doing . 

Agam our meetings - the President was majority 

of the time up In this high-level meeting up in another 

i level. And in the time conflict I guess, she ‘ust felt 

i that, “No. I can’t say hello. I - I don’t have I Ime,” 

- even though her boss was in the same area. But we - there 

.? -was never a contact between the President and her 

to tell the 

: : : President, 

And a;jain, I won’t 

Mr. 

- I’m not goin 

resrdent. Monica is here. ?I o you want to 

.:: ‘see her?” I - I - vou know. I wouldn’t do that to him. .._: 0 Can you think of any other former intern at the 

if YWhde House who7you’ve asked on your own, rf they’d like to 

: : G :see the President, 

.. :- A No because it was a one-time case..where we 

: : z ’ actually had a staff member like that to travel. And It Just 

-. ha 

;:+p 

pened to be an incident where it did it. I mean,. it just 

don’t know what the odds are It’s - it’s very slim 

: : 3, that that happens, because normally, interns don’t - well, 

:r : -she wasn’t an intern at all, so she wasn’t with the 

:I: :White House staff anymore at that time. _^ _ 

.-- Q No, ,I said former Intern. 

.-:’ 

--_ A All II ht. 

__.. MS. WIR 9 H: Go ahead. 

___. 

.--. A JUROR: Mr. Maes. where was the First Lady - 

. 

- 

._. 

.-. 

Page 225 

THE WITNESS: The First Lady - 

A JUROR: - 

THE WITNESS: 

white you were in Spain? 

The First Ladv had an aaenda she was 

j i jworking with on her schedule. 

.I i ; A JUROR: So she was not - 

THE WITNESS: 

-- believe the 

She was on another agenda. And I 

met up one time there. But this is - this 

:: : building is &e main summit. 

‘2’ And when you have a summit, it’s like, you know, 

it:everybody comes in, and sewnty is the highest you can get. 

1: : So when you turn around and have a staff member - you re a 

__ -. staff member coming in, it’s like. “Hey, you’re here. You 

1:: turned around and 

1:: A JUROR?: Mm-hmm. 

ot the pass to get in here.” 

-__ THE WITNESS: So that means you ot authorization 

_ c --to be here. And it’s neat to be able to talk to anot 9, er 

:-:person, “Hey, you’re from the Whrte House.” And even though 

: E :she was a former employee, and now she’s doing that. 

- >- 

‘I ‘like. “Hev. 

So again, we trj to conversate with people 

__ how are vou doina? What’s vour next trio?” And 

ir:iall that. .. 

,--. So - ant 

I: z : agenda. We don’t 

1 the First Lady, like I said, had another 

take care of the First Ladv. because our 

::; : main job is the President. So again, if they’re’ together, 

‘15 -then we take care of the two together - the Presrdent and 

Page 226 

: -the First Lady. .^. But it .ust happened to be that I - I can’t 

: i ’ remember the F’ rrst Lady bein 

;1 

there, because the President 

: : had that, he had a luncheon, e had more meetings to go to. 

= Then he had bilaterals In the other part the building. So he 

i i : was constant1 

An rI 

moving. 

when he flowed, you’re talking cameras all 

’ I .over. okay? Cameras all in different directions. So again, 

;: you’re cautious about the cameras. It’s his showtime. not 

:; I -mane. So you know where the cameras are and kind of move 

: : : away from the cameras. 

.__: 

.--. But that’s how intense this is. It’s not like a 

: : 1. basic meeting. Now, for her to be there, she might be in 

; ‘the hallway. IS where I would have put her not in the 

,.- : 1 z Presidents holding room or anything like that. 

..;: And a am ou have the chief of staff - at that 

-. -. time, it was - I t #. Ink E! rskrne Bowles was chief of staff - 

f f : and other staff members all around the President, and then 

._: the advtsor to the President is there. And the only thing 

.I: -she would be able to do was just see him walk through the 

: I I : hallway. That was it. And sa hi ._^. BY MR. WISENBE;IG. 

Q You mentioned this two meetin s in December - 

; I I : two incrdences in December where 

:I: President at the White House - in cy 

ou saw Mg onrca wdh the 

ecember of ‘97. Do you 

Page 227 

: rez!l that - talkin about those before lunch? 

_. 

: A Ri 9, t. 

Q &jay. I want to talk about the earlier one? 

.: A Okay. 

Q 

A 

The one you sard - 

c That’s the one I can’t recall that good on rt. 

:- ~ Remember, I told you, I says I know for sure that the second 

: 5 .tme she was there, she was there. 

.Z’ 

.-. Q On a weekend. 

-, 

,--, A And that was for the gift. On the weekend. / 

.--, Q On a weekend. 

,.q, 

.--. Q The other one, I said it was possibly in November 

: : 3. It was toward the end of November. and then ossibl 

8 r 

cn the 

-. -1 .begrnning of December, and I vaguely remem er tha 

.- _--. :‘ And I remember - that I can remember him walking 

.?~.out of the Oval Office. going to the right side to his gifts, 

-:-‘and then - ..;. 

.--, 

.--, Aa Ri -_ % ht. y Betty Curries desk, and possibly meeting 

::o!with Monica saying hello to her, and then him going back in 

:: 1; the Oval O&e. ._^: 

_--, Q Okay. Well, the record will reflect what you 

::_;:said. Are YOU - .^. .-3: A Okay. .^i. ,-a_ Q I had thought I heard you just say that a was 

1 learty December. Are you sa ing that 

Page 228 

is j that 

ou’re now not even sure 

ou even remember the t: r 

: 31 had r hought the uncertainty - 

resrden .sayrng hello to her? I 

;j: A He - he was - he said hello. that I can recall. 

: 5 i He said, “Hello. How YOU doina?” 

‘-1 Aa 

i31 

%%en back in the Oval Office. 

Q All right. I had thou ht your uncertainty was over 

: z, 1 whether or not that was a weeken dJ 

[13: A It was-yeah, that’s the problem. 

.., L-Al 

!:‘j 2 

j 13; the tri 

lo:% it was so close - I told you he had 

i : 4 1 part o P 

to Bosnia, it was December - it was in the middle 

December. So it was to the up er hatf of November 

i- _ 3 -. J- which would have been the last wee R. 

::s;beginning of December - 

In November, the 

in that time frame I can recall she 

1: 7 Iwas there. And then the next time would be after Christmas. 

il3: Q Right. On the earlier occasion, then - 

: : gr 1 late November/early December - the President came out 

[ : 2 1 and said hello to Monica, and Monica was in the area of 

cz::ESetty CurrFs d$.. l^^l .--! 

::7] Q Is 9 hat correct? 

[:a; A Just in front of it. 

;;:I Q Okay. On that day, do you recall - obviously, you 

Page 229 

: 1 lsaw Monica, obviously you saw the President obviously you 

: 2 1 saw Mrs. Currie. Do you recall anybody else being in that 

: 3 1 area around the same time? 

:4: A There’s a possibility the aide was there. I mean, 

:: 1 again, the other one that would be there - 

._. !C! Q Which aide would that be? 

.-. A That would be, I believe - not Kris Engskov; it 

i 3 j was Stephen Goodin. 

:?I Q Okay? 

,.~. _~, A And then the other one that would probably be in 

:: 11 the room would be Nanc Hernreich. 

! ,-- - - 1 

[ 12: ot a little cubb hole o tee, rrght here, next to Betty s 

: 1: ;b ;“a17 Nanct;f?ernreich. in the diagram, she’s 

indrcatrng , an she’s always back there, atways busy. 

151 he’s a SC eduler, slash - 

II L‘ .-4. Q Do you remember - 

!I“ 

,.:: 

A -aide. 

.--. 

AQ 

if you saw Nanc 

Y 

there that day? 

,. s> :__ yes. she’s there a most every dav the President 

i z 4 I ou have a memory of actually seeing Nancy Hemreich there 

:?jj r hat day? 

Page 224 to Page 229 OlCStarr 
2852 

Glen Maes, 4/8f98 

Page 230 

A I do not have a memory of actually SE -q 

xwx1391 

Page 233 

I non-untformed agents that she was fnendly with. like she was 

: -friendly “12 yo;;.ll? 

Q Okay Would it be fair to sa it would be the 

=. eople who were usually stationed around t 

-’ A 

K e Oval office In 

+ hat area in Walkway-l and/or 2? 

_. That would be Uniformed Division Secret Servrce 

5 ‘that are stationed there, not - 

0 

: i: that correct? 

We’re talking about Walkway-l and Walkway-2; is 

. 

.--, A Again, it depends on where he’s it, so it could be 

: :r : all three walkways. 

--_ Q It could be Walkway-3 on your map, okay? 

114: A Right. 

.--_ 0 On GM-l. All nght. There are sometimes 

: I 6: non-uniformed in Walkway-2; is that correct? 

.._. A No. What It IS. there’s always two PPD - 

’ Is i Presidential Protection Division - agents out there. Those 

: : 3 1 are agents. 

r-.,- 

i Z f ; an officer. 

The other one - Uniformed Division - he’s 

-.q; Q .-i. .--. A 

: 1: 1 around. He’s the guy t 

ets pushed - it’s bad, but he gets pushed 

at - 

ITT’ 0 The officer. 

:a: A That would be unusual. 7_ ; 0 

: i 3 1 can recall? 

Did you see Robert Bennett there tha: cay. if you 

.-I’ 

::,: 

A Who? 

Q Robert Bennett, one of the Presidents attorneys 

i I; i in the Paula Jones case. 

: :a :da 

Do you recall if he was them that 

::i!litte Y later? 

- either exactly that time, or a little earlier. or a 

.. (j’ A I - I wouldn’t know. I mean, I would know. 

!I: f but its ‘ust - it’s just that far back, I can’t 

: : 3: remember$at.DO you know who he is? ‘. i‘ .--. 

;20: A Yes. 

.-- 1 .--1 Q Okay. If you saw him, would you knm him? 

A Yes. 

Q But you don’t remember seeing him there that day7 

A Again, I - it’s going back that way. I can’t 

izs j remember that, no. 

- _ 

Page 231 

!?I Q 

:2jtalking about - 

Okay. Well, this is December of ‘97 we’re 

[3! 

:41 Aa Mm-hmm. or late November - 

-51 A correct. .~. 

ii] 

:;I 2 

2 

TJZ%~~ 

[31 I t that right? 

!51 

:1olcomes in - 

But to be there, there’s many occasions he 

:‘:I 0 You have to say “Yes” or “No.” You ware shaking 

:Iz,vour head. that’s all? 

i13i- A Just as there’s many occasions when he comes in and 

14 1 out, and I wouldn’t know. 

i151 0 Right. My only question is - you understand we’re 

.: E I you talkinq about - 

;17j- I’ll say no. 

:1s1 Q 

::s]talkin 

lber? Im?&ngtoe&blishYou don’t understand that we’ve talking been 

rrolearly r6e 

about a me+n that took lace in late November or 

Ill] A Wrth Mr. Bennett and with the President. 

‘“7) Q Well, no. Oh,.no. Just right now I’m hying to 

i_;lestablish tf da6”,“,we re talkrng about. 

:24; 

:?<I 

_--, Q Tharwe’re talking about - you’ve talked about tW0 

: I 1 incidences - one after Christmas and one in late November or 

Page 232 

: 2 1 early December. 

:3! A Okay. 

Q So you’re clear I’m talking about the late 

j tj November/early December. 

, .Q! A Okay. 

.7> 

iii; 

0 Okav. You understand that. 

A Yes.. 

.o Q 

:iojthere or not? 

Okay. And you just don’t remember if Bennett was 

...I :_i* A I have no idea. 

,‘,I LA-. Q He might have been, but you don’t recall? 

.131 A I do not recall. 

:1.I! Q 

: ; 5 1 there that py? 

All right. Do you recall if Bruce Lindsey was 

.1El I cannot recall that, either. The staff ame in 

: 17 j that constantly and ou can’t keep track of that. 

::a1 Q ‘Did Monica Lewinsky interact at all - dd 

: 15 1 you ever see her interacting with the Secret Service agents 

:zo:- either uniformed or non-uniformed -who were around the 

.2: ; Oval Ofhce area? 

._^, _-s, A 

::;;conversation 

Passing by, saying hello to them. You know, casual 

‘14leverybody. Tp” 

ssibly. I mean, I’ve seen her chat with 

hat’s how personable she was. 

:25j Q Okay. Do you recall any particular uniformed or 

OlCStarr 

Page 234 

-. , 

_A_ A He’s the - he’s the lowest 

:: ione that is not protecting the President. 

uy there. He’s the 

& it dernds on 

13 :where the President is at. It depends on where t at - the 

: : : officer is located. 

:5’ 

: E j correct? 

Q All right. So there are agents and officers. 

-7; 

;s; 

A 

Q 

i 9 j the agents? 

%kt’hhad you ever seen her interact with 

:1sj A To say hello? Yes. 

. ., . 

.--._ ,Q Okay. So there are agents and ofhcers that she 

: 12 1 Interact with, and you don’t - but you don’t recall - 

:13! A Aqain. “interacted’ 

: : 4 ; talking - just sa 7ng - a casual - 

- I don’t know what you’re 

::5i Q zag, hello? 

. .-61 A Yeah. 

::7; 

;,q; 

0 Say hello? 

.--. A Yes. 

:15) Q 

:: c ! you doing?” 

A 25-cent word. Say hello, chatting with. “How are 

-_>. .--1 A Okay. .^^l 0 

--3! A 

In the same way that she would do it - 

Not with us. 

Q -with you in the - 

A I mean, us would be a different story. 

-7. 

Page 235 

s-J Q It would be a little closer. ._)I 

.-. A It would a lot closer - 

:3‘ 

!dj 

Q Okay. 

A - compared to what they would be. 

15: Q But you don’t recall any particular names 

: E 1 of those people? 

._ 

.,I A 

:s1 Q 

Of people standing close? No. 

A 

All right. But it - all ri ht. 

:gj 

: : o I would 14 a 

You’re talking there’s fg our shifts of, offhand, I 

say ents. 

::?! Q 8 

So I wouldn’t keep them all in track. 

o you and Nel sometimes talk, chat, interact with 

: 1: 1 those Secret Service agents? 

.. -j’ 

.- , A Yes. 

Q Apparently what,- 

$ D&y., I mean, rts not - 

._;; A I mean, every chance we have we’re interacting, and 

: I e j because of the travel support, plus the personal support to 

i g! the President, yes. 

: : 3 ] Q All right. In other words, both social and 

: 1: ; business chat. Would that be - 

.^). 

_--. A True. Yes. 

IT’il 

.__. Q All rioht? 

A Yes.- 

Q Did you ever hear any of those agents or uniformed 

Page 230 to Page 235 
Page 236 Page 239 

‘: ‘officers - lets talk about before this came became a big 

ou ever hear any of them talk about 

~~~you and Nel did she ever ask you, 

-when she would talk wrth 

i~iduring the ttmes that - 

the President in?” 

LE.1 A Not with the President, because a 

Lpl knows when the President is In the Oval Office. 8 

ain. everybody 

here’s no 

: 101 ifs butts or what. And there’s - the President - when the 

[ 1: Idoor is shut, the President is in the office So everybody 

! IZ 1 knows that. 

[131 Q All right. Would - 

!I41 A From the intern to a volunteer, they would 

[ : 5 1 basically know that, too. 

: and qab7 That’s basrcallv what it IS. And I don’t need 

‘:-to dothat. 

: Q Nzw. I want to make sure I understood sc-e:?lng yo_ 

:F:said earlrer. Yo: said that as far as 

Y 

ou’re concerned. w-e- 

:-those doors clan< - when you hear hat metal against mez 

; 6: caused by the s,ctlon of the President openmg up the 

: - .9 o’clock door - 

!E’ 

IG‘ Aa Rpht. you immediately go and look and see w-a: he’s 

:i::doing; IS thAat c$-rrzt? 

:I?: 

‘;;I Q But vou’re tellina us that Nelvis doesn’t 

i;;ialways do that? _ 

4 There’s times he does, and there’s time he doesn’t. 

Q All right. Would she ever ask you or Nel if - 

::76!let’s assume a time when the President isn’t in: ‘When is 

[ I B jthe Presrdrt g;F.g to be in?” ‘What’s his schedule?” 

Cl91 

120; 0 Oka 

A And T ve never had her - that’s getting in and 

Iiiiarea where she shouldn’t be at, and I wouldn’t even respond 

rz3ito that. 

Q Oka Okay. So she never asked 

i::ieither whether the 3 resrdent was in, or what his SC i

ou anything about 

edule 

1151 Q okay. 

'!E, A If we know there’s something going on 

1:: :schedule-wise. and then he responds. But again, what 

: ID j Nelvis does, he aoes, and then what I do is what I do. 

1131 0 Onay. So is there any partjcular reason my you’re 

;zcja little mar; Johnny-on-the-spot than Nelvrs?. 

12:1 Its weird. because I enjoy my job. I wouldn’t 

[zz! have this job - ILe been doing this man years. I can 

::3!retire any time. I don’t have to put up WI 1 h this. I can 

: z 4; leave the White House, go out and get a real job in souety. 

[15: But I enjoy working for the President, and I enjoy 

2853 

BSA Glen Maes, 419190 XUUi401 

Page 237 

!;;was, oranfhin8 like that? 

o. The onl 

;;j”Are you oing to travel?“. + 

thing that - schedule-wise was like, 

14 1 I’m going 9 o Santiago, Chile, 

,,ezh. I’m traveling next week. 

f s 1 specific detail - .us 

Okay, Great. And not in 

that we re travelrng. 

i61 

[73 

[El 

191 

2 yd,“a,he wanted to know whether you’re traveling? 

2 ~t%se she knows when we travel, we travel with 

i ;o j the President. 

Q So she is asking you about the President traveling 

i::jwhen she’s asking about - 

A No, because it’s like - it’s likf! you’re - 

i::]“Hey, what’s up? You going next week? It 2us.t zsual 

1151 conversatron. Yeah, I’m going next week to hrle. Hey, I 

[i61 ot Germany next month, okay.” “Hey, I got China after 

c ;T 1 ic at.” That’s how a lot of times we communicate, even with 

c :B 1 Secret Service. or with other staff members. 

[ 191 trying to find out where ou’re oin 

Everybody’s 

[20] 0 Well, bu r- if you 98. ell onrca Lewinsky, “I’m going 

iz: Ito Chile next week,” she’s oin to know, based upon her 

;22! knowledg and working in &e White House, that you’re 

12 3 ! going w 

::4i 

;he vEz.rdent; IS that correct? 

[25j Q Did you ever hear anything from any source - 

Page 238 

:: ~first~hand. second-hand, eighteenth-hand - again, I’m 

,: 2 I talking about excludrng newspapers,, what you ve seen in 

; 3 ,the 

P 

ress since this has become a br issue - ever hear 

,4 jany hrng that led you have been 

15: some kind of a social etween 

[t] Monica Lewinsk and 

‘7‘ A &o. 

I?, Q Did she ever tell you an F.’ hrng that would lead you 

: 2 i to believe that there might be such a re atronshrp? 

A No. - 

hear anything that when 

you to conclude that 

::4; -A No. 

Q 

i i:j be almost im 

You’ve told us about how ou believe that it would 

.1: 

ossible for Monica to have g een visiting the 

1;: 1 President wit out your knowledge; is that correct? 

I181 A Right. 

!!9' Q 

I~C j said “Well 

Now, have you, at any time, talked with Nel and 

what about ou Nel? The times that you were 

Lz: 1 here and I wasn’t. was &o&a in with the President?” 

!2?: A No. 

[‘Xl 0 Have you ever had a discussion like that with him? 

f-4: A I wouldn’t do that. I mean, to me, its -why 

:zsjwould I want to know that? I mean, do I want to sit there 

Page 236 to Page 241 

Page 240 

r:;the job that I have. as our primary job is to maintain the 

[?lOval Ofhce of the President. 

[3! MR. WlSENBERG: 

[.+]to ask? 

Any questions that you all want 

15; THE WITNESS: Yes? 

16: A JUROR: Hi, Mr. Maes. 

[‘I THE WITNESS: Yes? 

[El A JUROR: Will you look at your map again? 

!9! THE WITNESS: Okay. 

A JUROR: I want to 

I:yigood understanding, leavin the 

et - I want to just get a 

[ 12 :- when you’re comrn 

{ 8valOfficeatthe9o’ctcck 

out t 

THE WlTN$SS: 

at door? 

1131 Ri ht. 

A JUROR: 

! ::; in front of the door area. 

The hal 9 bath is right behind - or nght 

Next to it, is that the pantry - 

F 1.c 1 the one sha ed like Texas? 

1;7j TRE WITNESS: No that’s what’s kind. The pantry 

: I 8 1 is actually - where you see the &al Office dining room? lt 

; I 91 says “Oval Office Complex,” it says. And if you - 

[ZOI A JUROR: So it’s over a little brt further? 

[?I: THE WITNESS: Yeah. It’s over further, and rf you 

iZZllook in that room here, it’s on the upper right-hand comer. 

:zjlAnd again. it doesn’t show what it properlv looks like. It 

i74 jextends in the haltway another approximately - 

:251 A JUROR: So what is that area - 

Page 241 

I:1 THE WTTNESS: -three feet. 

A JUROR: 

i;iand the pant 

-that’s probably in between the bath 

THT WITNESS: 

I: i is no space there. 

That - like a door on there? There 

That’s the way the construction IS at the 

is;time, and I - and to me, I think what it is, it’s probably a 

I 7 1 pillar or somethi 

3 

in that area. Because it’s a - 

I81 A JUR R: 

[9! THE WFINES~kayit’~~ solid wall. It’s a wall like 

She’s talking 

::4i A JUROR: So when you Iwhen you’re in the pantry 

; ~sjand you come - you come inside the dining room, then, to get 

:?Elto Hall-l? 

:I71 THE WITNESS: 

:I81 A JUROR: 

Right. That door is - 

Or are you automaticall 

:?Dj THE WITNESS: You come out oft fyr ein Hall-l - 

[2C: A JUROR: -when you come out? 

!111 THE WITNESS: You come out of the pantry. you’ll be 

~2: idirectly into the dining room - which that door is always 

[z3jopen? WeAaJr 5s 

I24! Ry Uh-huh. You keep that- 

:251 THE WlTNESS: We always -we have a doorstop 
BSA 

Page 242 

:. there that keens it aiar all trme. And then you’re Into 

2854 

Glen Maes, 418198 

:: the hallwag .’ ’ ‘2 o rf you turn around that corner of the door 

ii j you’re looking at the Oval Ofhce door from 9 o’clock. So 

: s.you’re lookin directly at it. 

[i: A .%ROR: Okay. 

[‘: THE WITNESS: And it’s only - from where I’m 

et there, is about from here to that 

here (rndrcatrng). That’s 

Page 245 

A Andthere’s no door ,The other thong is there 5 

: i .noad;;;rrgnt here (indrcahng) That s what they had 

-: - 

.- 

i;: 

3 Pardon me? 

A There is no door on thus I mean, you have - 

[i: Q 

i-: A 

Leading from the hallway to this empty spaceYes. I mean, that’s - 

!z‘ Q 

A 

Well, because it’s not a room, right? 

!“: Ri ht. And that’s - 

MR. WSENBERG: Okay. We’re going to have :c wrap 

Ii: i up I believe. Before the witness is excused, are there any 

i z ;auestions of the witness? 

THE WITNESS: I:: iThat's how close it is. 

- six feet to go into the hallway. 

ilil A JUROR: Okay. 

i‘ THE WITNESS: I mean, here. it looks like it’s big 

I: 2 jand it’s a vast area. But you actually walk in the area, 

[ 19 1 with the Oval Office in that space, the actual area for the 

:~o;private study is ‘ust a small area, like thrs (indicating), 

And t en ou have the dinin room wh~c I:f iprobably the area Ao /. nght in here, and 

IS 

%e tabie in the 

[23!middie of it, and the pant 

[24:itls every - it’s really con r 

is right here (indicatin ). So 

rned - more than what t%is is. 

(25: 

Page 243 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

etween the presidential bathroom and 

( 15 1 pantry door. 

(16: A Ri ht. 

Q Ol?ay. Take a look at how it’s portrayed on page 

[:ijof the Star, and tell us whether or not that’s more accurate 

[le:than our map. 

(201 A That is not accurate at all. What happens is, 

i~::you’ve walk in the doorway, and you’re - you go to your 

~ZZ;right-hand side. The door IS there. The door opens this - 

[ 33 1 this direction - 

[24: Q Okay. 

[‘5j A - back into the hallway. And you walk in, the - 

21 

Page 244 

1; you know, I don’t - 

Gitalkin 

0 Well, let me stop 

z 

ou for a minute. because I’m not 

about - I don’t want to tal 

4 ; I’m ta Q. 

about doors right now. 

rng about this space that’s between the pantry and 

5: the bathroom. 

6; A That’s what I’m trying to get at. 

7: Q Okay. 

C‘ 

-, fi Because this is out of - out of size. 

i5: 

2 gir%rse the actual size of the pantry comes here. 

iyithen comes to the w,all (indicating). So this is the wall - 

:ii’“’ hallwa~wa%$chSZ $s not accurate? 

lj: 

- the north side. It’s not accurate. 

161 

Q Okay. 

A And there’s no door here, either. So 

17lits - 

19; 

154; 

AQ C$~~;&s& ;“d to know. 

ZC: Q We’re just trying to see if we can get a slightly 

21; better version than the map. 

l_)i A This is - this is probably as accurate as you’re 

_;jgoing to have, with the exception of the pantry being built 

~4 lout in the hallwa . 

25’ Q d;tay. 

i?3i ~ 

[14! 

&Jo. response& 

R WISENB RG: 

: 15 1 be excused? 

Okay. May you the witness 

(161 FOREPERSON: Yes. he may. 

j17) MR. WISENBERG: If you would please wait oti wth 

[ 1~ l your attorney. I wanted to have a chat with your attorney. 

:19: THE WITNESS: 

[zolwant to do? 

And this information? What do rou 

[211 MS. WIRTH: All the uestions. 

MR. WISENBERG: s1 e’ll have to do that on a 

i;;;different - we’ll have to do that on a different occasion. 

i’4 i We did not finish up, so we’ll have to do that on a different 

[25]0cMsion. 

Page 246 

THE WITNESS: 

ii; to the attorney - 

So what happens now? I just go 

[31 MR. WISENBERG: 

[41 THE WITNESS: 

We’ll tell your - 

MR. WISENBERG: 

- until you get out there? 

- attorney about it, right. 

MR. WISENBERG: 

Page 247 

CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 

Elrzabeth J. Walker 

Official Reporter 

1141 

1151 

i16i 

II’1 

I181 

1191 

i2oj 

(211 

[Xl 

1231 

i24j 

[25] 

back 

Page 242 to Page 247 
2855 

Glen Maes, 5/7/98 

Grand Jury 

Page 1 to Page 109 

CONDENSED TRANSCRIPT AND CONCORDANCE 

PREPARED BY: 

OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 

Suite 490-North 

Washington, DC 20004 

Phone: 202-514-8688 

FAX: 202-514-8802 
2856 

Glen Maes, 5i7’198 XMAXflIlI 

Page 4 

: rf an 

?. 

answer would tend to incrimrnate you. you could take 

f the #th Amendment on that. You understand tha:’ 

A Okay. Yes. 

Q And you understand ?iat you have an absolute 

: obliqation to tell the truth. 

. . . 

~~ .____-. 

Page 2 

PROCEEDINGS 

is j Whereupon, 

GLEN ANTHONY MAES 

I:;was called as a witness and, after having been duly sworn by 

fji the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and testified 

: 6: as follows: .^. 

:;: 

EXAMINATION 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

3 Q Would you state your name for the record, please, 

i: j and spell your last name’ _ 

.-I A 

::!M-a-e-s. 

Yes. My name is Glen Anthony Maes. last name 

.. 2‘ -+, Q And you have been here before, is that correct? 

::a: A Yes: 

-15. Q And I’m Sol Wisenberg and this is Mary Anne Wirth 

: E 1 of the Office of Independent Counsel and the court reporter 

i 1: j and the grand jury. 

When you were here before, we talked about your 

: : if rights and responsibilities as a rand ]ury witness. Do you 

_. 9 * idesire to have us repeat those 9 or you? 

.-A! A If ou’d like 

Q 

A 

V&l, 1’11 be ha py to. 

--_ 8 

14: Q %?gh~% y&%%’ you’ve got a ri ht to 

15; have an attorney, not present in here wrth you, but ou 9. srde, 

_. 

Page 3 

: :outside that 

-. understand t .-. Y; 

ou can consult with if you need to. Do you 

at? 

‘3: A Yes. 

.;- Q 

.s: Is that correct? 

And I understand you have an attorney with you. 

.-. A Yes. Ido 

_. Q More than one, actually, correct? 

2’ A Yes, Ido 

.>’ Q 

. 

--, A 

And who are they? 

it’s Joe Small and Ste hen McNabb. 

. 

.--. Q And you understand t E 

:::truth. 

at you’ve got to tell the 

13. A Yes. 

-- ,. Q That if you don’t tell the truth, that’s a federal 

::;:crime and that’s perjury. Do you understand that? 

_. _ r, A Yes: 

.._. 

- Q Do 

: : i Ms. Wirth or mysel ! 

ou understand that if there’s any uestion that 

ask that you don’t understand an 1‘ 

: 5; need to have it rephrased. you’re free to do so. 

you 

I : : understand that? 

Do you 

.^. 

--. A Yes. .^_, 

.--. Q Do you understand that anything you do say can be 

I 3; used against you? 

.-,. .-T. A Yes. 

.--. Q You have a privilege against self-incrimination, so 

O&Starr 

A Yes. 

Q Do you understand that we are bound by an oath of 

.: secrecv with some of the exceotions I told vou aboJt last 

i::time? You are not bound and you are freeio talk about your 

: 1:. testimony with your lawyer or with anybody else. 

--. A Yes. .,^. Q All right Anything you don’t understand about 

:I!-your rightsAand[osponsrbrkhes as a grand jury wdnesso 

~ _--. 

r.:. Q 

::t:answer audibl 

An right. And I’ll remmd you that you have to 

: : : audibly so tha r 

yes or no or whatever your answer would be 

we can pick it up for the record. 

:: E understand that? 

Do you 

r.: 

.--. A Oka 

._.. 

__ MR. WISENBERG: And I’ll turn over questioning to 

.--. ,-: Q Mr. Maes, the last time you were here, we had asked 

1 !i ou some questions dunng your testimony which you had asked 

:I:‘ r o consult with your attorney about and we never got back to 

Page 5 

: ::those by the end of the day, so I’m going to return 10 those 

::-first. 

--_. Do you recall that we asked you what the telephone 

i ::numbers were in the pantry, both the new one and the old one? 

.- A Okay. 

; -_ Q Are you prepared to answer that question now? 

.- A Yes. 

:_. .I. Q Okay. 

5 A And one of the things that I have, though, prior to 

: : s.that, too, is once I release that information out, those 

;::.numbers may be changed, okay? I’m just lethng you know 

!:I-that. I just don’t want you think, hey. he changed the 

: : 3: numbers on us. But the first number was - .‘Z. Q Wait, wait, wait, wait. Before you go any further, 

ii;just so that you understand, as Mr. Wisenberg just advrsed 

;:E‘ ou. the grand jurors and I and the court reporter are bound 

;:-:l;y rules of secrecy. 

::4‘ A Right. 

:, .>. Q So you’re the only person in this room who could 

if ! f release them outside this room. 

;r:.that. 

Just so that you understand 

,^^ 

.-- A Okay. Okay. 

;22: Q Continue. r^,. A Okay. The first number was the old nu 

1 ii. had for as long as I ve worked there It was 4nIi@rtmheratwe 

Page 6 

:: And the new number now which is in existence i .^ Q And those are the pantrv numbers. 

A Ri ht. 

* 

.- 

:;‘ Q 0% and new. 

:J A 

:*:Yes. 

There’s only one phone number there in the pantry 

I-’ Q 

f z : remember? 

And when was the new number installed, if you 

i. A As I remember, offhand. maybe three weeks since th 

! i,: jstory broke because of reporters trying to get to us on the 

[ :: phone. Probabl three weeks afterwards 

> 

i :<i about 

Q /& right. Now you were also asked questions 

how you came to hire your attorneys and you ‘ust 

; ::. testified a moment ago that you have two outside. c! an you 

rand jury how you came to hire these particular 

LX ,and they did explain that I can pick any lawyer I wanted and 

;?j:l went with him. 

!?:: Q Oka 

[25: A 

And who is paying your lawyers? 

As of right now, 1 am. 

~~___ 

Page 1 to Page 6 
BSA 

2857 

Glen Maes, 5l7198 XMAX(Y2) 

Page 7 

.L. What do you mean, “as of right now-7 

._. 

2 

That s the onl 

: i ,another source somewhere t X 

source I have, unless there’s 

at I can talk to. 

::’ Q Okay. Has anybody suggested to you that you rr g%t 

: 5 j be reimbuze:: for your legal fees? 

:6’ No, that hasn t really come up yet. No 

‘71 Q Oka Have 

i?] A Y Y 

ou received any legai brlls to date? 

;‘i1 

No, have no. 

:i”jare’ 

Q Have you been advised of what Mr Small’s rates 

I?*1 .&A. A Yes, I have. 

:.^lj Q Okay. All ri 

; !; 1 of questions and answers t i! 

ht. I want to 

fi 

o back to a couple 

at you gave t e last time 

: :: i For the record. the first one is on paqe 33 of your 

ilji 

a 

rand jury testimony from April 9’1998 whicti was the 

[:61 ast date on whrch you appeared. There was a senes of 

I. 7 I auestions that I asked vou and I will read them to YOU. 

iI!jThey’re brief. _ 

I?,“; kind of. like. baa or contarner of aifts in the studv that 

‘Does he.” referring to the President, “keep any 

:;I; he fr uently g6es away?” _ 

1;;: “t 

[2X; 

he answer was, That he gives away?” 

‘Question: Yeah.” 

*Answer: He has 

ii:jpresidential pins, items II .R 

ersonal gifts - more 

e that, that he’ll give out to 

Page 8 Page 11 

II! 

E 

eople that he might be friends, or someone he sees, ‘Hey, 

:2 1 ere’s a pin for you.“’ 

i33 ‘Question: Mm-hmm.” 

“Answer: And it could be anythin from a brooch to 

;:;a tie bar or something like this, to a pin igk I e thts.” 

And the questron was to 

i:jPresident ever rven anyone a 

A&h ’ 

our knowledge has the 

roach? 

and, yes. I know one was a cousin I saw, staff 

1:; members. I’ve seen a brooch around with the staff members 

[loland I don’t know if the President 

!:~!That’s what I wouldn’t know. but B 

ave them directly to him. 

know what the brooch looks 

!l:~like. It’s acry - 

!:33 Is it a presidential brooch? 

1:4; A It’s a presidential brooch, yes. 

[15! Q Is it intended for women or men? 

i ‘: 

jIr:outside witAh the presidential seal in the center of it. which 

For women. When you see it it’s lace work on the 

.. 5-,_ i “Question: Did Mr Nelvts ever discuss that 

:: : incident with you?” 

:3: “Answer: No.” 

::. “Question: Did you ever hear anything about 

: 5 j that incident prior to reading the article In the 

: 6; tabloid?” 

r-. “Answer: No. And what’s funny about it - you 

i 3 j know, I don’t know if you want to hear it, but when the 

: 3 J President does makeu - he ets make on - like sa he 

: : : j does a statement on T6 - tha?‘s where he’ll use the &al 

I :; 1 Office sometimes, cabinet room, almost anywhere. 

,.-> ? A-, “And he might do a photo shot. And he might toot 

: 13 :some makeup on. It’s a fleshtone-type makeup for his eyes, 

; : 4 : because it’s a little baggy down there. 

. 1*5: “And he puts it on, he does the statement, then he 

.__I%. : 16‘ ets towels. Normally, what we have is two hand towels - 

rgger hand towels for him. Then we have another hand towel, 

/;?~a real thin one. Then we have a face cloth in there. And 

[ :+ j those are standard in his restroom. His restroom is only no 

;?:: big er than this table here (Indicating), for the whole 

: z : : res ? room. 

r::‘ “And we’ll keep that supplied. And the end of the 

r:;iday, I’ll make sure everything is cleaned up at the end of 

;: 4 7 the day. We put stuff in a bag in a drawer, kept it in that 

::s;space. 

i i3 j is nice It’s blue’and gold. 

i15! 0 Okay. All right. The next passage that I want to 

:zg~ask you about is on page 34 for the record of your testimony. 

;:?]Actual~. 33 

[:?i Ques 9 

orng over to 34. I asked you: 

ion: What about the hats and shirts and all 

I- i‘that stuff that he orobablv - does he aet shirts as well as 

jqihats?” 

;-l, ‘Answer These are more gifts that are given to 

Page 9 

[:I him and. again, if he wants to 

rzlout. Like ball caps. He might % 

ive them out, he gives them 

[ 3 j three or four ball caps. 

e on a trip. he’ll have 

For instance, Martha’s Vine ard 

;d land. ‘Hey, Glen. want a ball cap? ‘Thanks.’ And I -7 I 

,j 1 ball cao. And iust little thinas like this.” 

get a 

.~. 

!61 A ‘Right. - 

:7: Q Did .anyone suggest to you that you should mention 

[ 9; Martha’s V’neyaNr: In your testimony? 

-01 .?: 

:iO] ‘d ‘&a,. And can you tell us why you mentioned 

I I 1 Martha’s Vineyard? 

Because Martha’s Vine ard that and Christmas time 

the largest times when al Y the I. gtfts come in. 

Why Martha’s Vineyard? 

15; A Because of vacation time and Martha’s Vineyard, 

:61little communrties around there, tt could be a bakery shop,, 

17 1 it could be almost an 

I? ]support there during 

#’ .r hrng. And 

IS vacabon 

ou get a lot of community 

rme. 

151 Q Which particular bakery shop are you talkin about? 

A I’m just saying offhand bakery shops. it cou d be a 

gP;fire department. it could be on and on. I mean. I wouldn’t 

P 

;--iknow.’ c--, 

(23: I went through the gifts because my job is to 

:24 Isecure the residence where he was staying at and I’m around 

;zsjthe person that may - may not, I may be working with the 

Page 10 

:-gifts. get them packed IJD !o be sent back to the Whrte House, 

.: so I would see mulbple 9% It could be, again, 

: :: paintrngs. tt could be almos! anything as a ift 

4: Q 

A 

Is the Blad Dog a bakery s I! op? 

:. 

,-. 

;s-too 

The Black Dcg IS a restaurant That’s one of them, 

I know we had - tha! I know offhand, ball caps and 

:;: T-shirts from there. That’s all I know of nght now. 

- Q Oka 

: 5: that I’m going to as i( 

All nght. For the record, the next passage 

: : :. testimonv. 

you about is from page 140 of your 

. . . . 

.-- _ A Okay. 

.._~ 

,--,. Q And this was rn reference to that tabloid article 

: : 3: In the Star Ma azine that we talked about which referenced an 

,-LI, . ‘interview with iIl. rchael McGrath. Do you recall that? 

.‘i‘ .--, A Okay. 

.,a, .-G> Q Okay. The questions were as follows: 

,,-: “Okay. But in that tabloid. there was an incident 

i; 5 i reported, was there not. wtth regard to something that 

: : 3 1 Mr. Nelvrs told Mr. McGrath about lipstick-stamed towels 

;z 2: that he found in the viunrty of the Oval Office? 

t 2:. recall that portion of the storv? 

Do you 

,^^; 

_--. “Answer: I do.” ’ 

;:‘j: “Question: Do you know anything about that 

: z: : incident?” 

:zj] “Answer: No.” 

Page 12 

i:j “But that’s the only time there was ever makeup. 

[I : When they turn around and exa gerate - yeah yeah, 

:.does - there was makeup on it, % ut If you’re talkrng - I 

it 

1; i know what the makeup is. I know. But does McGrath know? 

: s 1 No. Because he’s not up there. He’s not dealing with that, 

: 6: with the President. So -” 

[7‘ 

:ti: 

And then there was another 

Okay. The question that 9 

uestion after that. 

have for you is whether 

I 9 j anyone su 

: :a; testimonv w Y 

gested to ou that you discuss in your grand jury 

e fact tha the President wears makeuo. 

ii:: -A No. 

[I:: Q You said that Mr. McGrath doesn’t know that the 

! ;;: President wears makeu 

(14‘ A Not that P 

That’s what you said in your answer. 

know. Like I said. he doesn’t work UD 

: 15: in that area, so he wouldn’t real1 know. 

::i: Q Okay. Then Mr. 1G elves knows like you do that the 

: 17 ! President wears makeup when he appears on televrsion? 

“j?l ,--> A Yes, he should. “0‘ .->_ Q Okay. And he would know the difference between 

113 iflesh-tone makeup and red Itpstick. wouldn’t he? 

[;I: A Yes. 

r>_l. i--l Q All right. My next set of questions is from page 

;?3~145, for the record, and I’m reading from the end of the 

~24 Iquestion. The question starts actually on pa e 143 and what 

: 2s 1 Ihad done was quoted extensively from the P ablord arbcle, 

Page 7 to Page 12 OlCStarr 
2858 

BSA Glen Maes, 5l7l98 

Page 13 Page 16 

*- ch I won’t do aaarn. but at the end, I said, “Did Netvs 

-i e.tr tell you anytrzng about an Incident similar to the c-e 

.I rezorted here” Which was the incident rnvolvrng the 

I ::rs:ck-starned towels or tissues that were recovered f~m 

t f-2 Oval Office. tra! Mr. McGrath reported that Mr. Ne-+r 

-a< told hrm aboc: .- I- So the cuestion aaain. “Did Nelvis ever tell vcu 

BY h?R. WISENBERG: 

Did you ever hear Nelvis discuss Pa;la Jones ant 

together In any way, shape or fcT7 

;,effec, - 

Did you ever hear Nelvis say anytr -9 to this 

_: A Excuse me. I’m sorry. When you’-e saying did 

?:he ever talk to them, yes. he knew Monica, es he knew 

?:Paula Jones by the news media, but I don’t now t i you’re 

:.sa 

:.tal z 

rng - rf ou re t 

ec! wrth k 7 

ing to imply that he might have 

omca o her? I don’t understand tha: 

1:. I’m sorry. 

-, 7 

--_ Q The question was did he ever men:cn them or taik 

14 ,about themAtogether. Paula Jones - .i. 

--, Like being to ether or something7 

161 Q No no no. &d he mention them m !he same 

: :- J sentence or the same’ aragra 

;:?, A 

0 

Not ready no. P 

h. for instance? 

can’t recall that. No 

;:0; As an example,.did 

*-a~somethmg to thts effect, if Monica 

::; i oin 

J 

ou ever hear N&is say 

oesn’t watch h she’s 

-: a-$hin about an’rncrdent symilar to the one re .- 

3 

orted’nere7” 

7: nswer No I read that article, and wrt -1 

it- NcGrath, he’s sucn kidder. He’s turn around and et a nold 

:: e my pass, this IS the type of person he is. He ge 9 s a nold 

1: c’rour pass, blow 

:z‘p_: you on Socks, z 

ou up, take ou and take the cat Socks. 

erox It like t 

x. 

IS (rndicatrng) and next 

:: -t- ng you know you’re all over the White House. It WIII be 

15 -c- someone’s desk. like, Who’s that?’ ‘Oh, its Glen.‘” 

:i- So when I read that, I’m like one thing he’s ad 

17 iccmg to it, blowing rt out of context, He’s - what’s he 

12 -t-,ng to do? Because I know McGrath and I know how much a 

15. kkder he is. And then he puts this article in there and it 

i;; js-ocked me.” 

And the question that I have now is whether you had 

11: :c_wssed with an one 

i-3 re fact that Mr. fV7 P. 

rior to your testimony here in Apnl 

ffira h IS a krdder. 

[li: A 

[23- Q 

It would be to my lawyers. 

Other than those conversations. 

Page 14 

I- 

,-. A It would not be anybody in the White House. No 

1:: Q Okay. Other than your conversations wrth your 

: j laluyers. 

14: A No. 

!5: Cl 

[6: A 

;;.rny questions should be qualified by that. 

.-- BY MR. WISENBERG: 

[Ej Cl Other than your lawyer, you didn’t talk to anybody 

:o.a-“out McGrath being a kidder. 

riz: A No. - 

[I:: Q Did you intend before 

j:? -th last time to make sure that you le ty 

ou came into the grand jury 

us 

[:j-vlew McGrath was a kidder? 

know that in your 

[:;: A No. because you brought the question up to me. 

[IS. BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q Okay. For the record, the question was “Did Nelvis 

iit’eier tell you anphtng about an incident similar to the one 

r:~:re3orted here?’ Your answer was “No” and then you continued 

I IS‘Y~JI your discussion of Mr. McGrath being a kidder. For the 

i:r:reczx’d. All ri ht. 

I?. Dic?Monica Lewinsky ever discuss Paula Jones with 

)s?:yc~? NotAhe %I. but the person. 

i-3 

!24‘ Q Okay. 

:~;:yt~r presence? 

Did you ever hear her mention Paula Jones in 

Page 15 

,. 

.-. A No. 

,-- Q Has Bayani Nelvis ever discussed Paula Jones with 

1 jyc117 Again, the_ person. 

:: A 

:5: 0 

i 6 : presence? 

NH”,s Mr. Nelvis ever mentioned Paula Jones in your 

I- A Onl what he saw on TV or what I saw on TV or in 

i T :tlw news articles. xfv ho’s Paula Jones? We’d see Newsweek 

L 2: Magazine, Time Magazine, look at this. That was about all 

rlc.tte extent of that was. We never knew her because she wasn’t 

I I : -a: %e White House. so we had no idea who she was except for 

12 :w?at the media put out. 

ij: Q ,Has Nelvis ever discussed Paula Jones in relation 

:::tc Monica~w~~~ky with you? 

15’ *-_ 

Ii‘ Q Or rn your presence? 

3; -A Asm14; Q 

:e. A 

Anything connected - 

Just like I said, the news articles, when we 

‘-‘read - ou know. we read the same stuff to 

s::t?.a:‘s ai we said ‘Look at Paula Jones 

ether and 

loo I? at what 

I-; se’s doing.” And that’s basically as far as it really 

;;:went. It wasn’t like contacting somebody or Monica - 

24 j hearin 

z5.ttr or 9 

or seeing Monica, “Hey, the Paula Jones case is 

hat.” 

oicstarr _. _ 

to be like Paula Jones? Or she’s going to be ‘he next 

/,,j!aut! Jones? 

r-3. A 

Q 

Nothing like that. No. 

[24: Okay. Anything even remotely like %at? 

I-5: A No. 

Page 17 

iij BY MS. WIRTH: 

p-1 1-. Q Oka 

Y 

The last time and also today you’ve told the 

ijlgrand jury that you alked to Cheryl Mills about the 

14 2 possrbrkty that you might be subpoenaed to testify ~1 this 

;s]case. 

iE1 A 

I?] Q ??&t right? 

isj A Yes. 

Q 

;iEielse at the White House Counsel’s Of&e? 

Other than Cheryl Mills have you talked to anyone 

111: A No. 

11:’ 

!:3;way. 

Q 

have 

In your conversations with Cheryl MdlS - by the 

there been more than one or just one7 

A Just one. It might have been three minutes. four 

/ i: i minutes. That’s it. 

:16j Q 

[171 A 

Okay. And when was that, if you recall? 

I don’t have a date for you, but offhand, it might 

: I 1: have been - I believe it was on a Saturday. 

i191 Q Was it before you were subpoenaed or after you wle1 z o 1 subpoena? to testify,? 

1-1 ,--I I hadn t been sub 

P 

oenaed until probably a month 

izzllater. I was probablv one of the ast people berna 

(2s jsubpoenaed’, I would imagine. ’ ” 

!24i Q 

j 2 5 1 either today or 

Did ou discuss with her any of your testimony 

anyt x. rng that you were asked the last time? 

__ 

Page 18 

A No. I see her once in a reat while because I work 

ii jat the Oval Of5ce but, again, basically 

:;!doing and thars about as far as we go: 

8. I, how are you 

;4; Q Have you ever discussed with her whether you hat 

of any relationship between Monica Lewinsky and 

No. 

Q Have vou ever discussed Bavani Netvis with her? 

i9; A No. - 

ilC! Q Have you ever discussed with her the lipstickI il I stained tissue storv? 

112j A No.’ 

!i31 Q Have you discussed that story of the lipstick- 

[ 14 J stained tissues or towels or whatever with anyone other than 

[:s!with your “,“om;;s? 

116: 

[?7: Q Oka 

r;s:you had seen the S 7 

You told us the last time you testified that 

ar arbcle. 

r A 

ii3ishocked about it 

Yes. That was briefly. I just glanced through it, 

[L?] Q 

A 

Do you remember who showed it to you? 

:;;;A 

Yes. Steve Smith. He didn’t show rt to me. 

ain. Steve Smith mentioned about it. He says, 7 heard 

1241 Mg Ike’s gorng to be in the Star Magazine.” So on the weekend, 

1251 Ibelieve it was on a Sunday, I went to like a Giant Food 

Page 13 to Page 18 
2859 

q SA Glen Maes, ii/7198 XMAX 441 _ 

Page 19 

17) Q Has he complained about that to anyone else, to 

;;;I your knowledge? 

A 

Cl 

Not to my knowledge. No. 

Has anyone ever told you that Bayani Nelvis said ‘:y ianything about cleaning up lipstick-stained tissues or towels 

:%]or any stained items in the Oval Office mm lex? 

231, A No. Just what I heard on d and reports. That’s 

.-14!11. 

251 Q Have you ever seen Monica Lewinsky mme out of any 

Page 20 

[ 11 room in the White House and appear either nervous, upset, 

rz;shaky, in shock? 

!31 A 

! 4 1 she was smilin 

No. Always smiling. Every time I ever saw her, 

I:; 

Q fiave you ever seen Monica Lewinsky upset? 

A No. 

17; Q Do you know anything about the circumstances of 

I 6 j Monica Lewinsky leavin 

! 91 Do you know why she le R 

her employment at the White House? 

? 

A No, I didn’t. I thought it was just a 

:iy:change and possibly an upper pa 

osition 

[E jThat’s the only thing I knew abou ty 

ing job, is all I t I? 

it. 

ought. 

[I?] Q 

A 

Do you remember how you learned that she left? 

I think I learned from Nelvis. He was the one who 

i iii mentioned that Monica was going to the Pentagon and that was 

[ 161all I really knew about it. 

[171 Q Did he tell you that she was either fired or 

[ 18 1 transferred from the White House? 

Page 21 

!I! Q Did Nelvis ever tell you an 

: 2 1 unfavorab; abr;. her departure from the I& 

htng negative or 

hate House? 

(31 

Cl Did Nelvis ever tell you that he took Monica 

i :I Lewinsky to dinner to console her after she was fired from 

! 6 1 the White House? 

I71 A No. 

Q Did Nelvis ever tell you that he took Monica 

i Ej Lewinsky to dinner? 

A I know one time the 

i:ylto eat and I never know if they real y drd and I believe they 

; 11 jwere talkin 

Y 

mentioned about having a bite 

[13!something P 

at one time about going to get some pizza or 

Ike that. So - 

114: Q That’s a separate time? 

i:SI A I wouldn’t even know the timeframe on that, when 

r~slthat happened. 

[17! 0 

r13ljust one? 

Were those two separate incidents of going out or 

[?9] A One that I know of. 

120: Q And was that before or after she lefl the White 

r211House? 

[2?1 A 

(231 Q 

Again, I wouldn’t know. 

Now,. you told us the last time you testified that 

iz4 1 the President occastonally keeps gifts under his desk in the 

[zs!study at times, you said. 

Page 22 

- A 

,^. 

.- Q %?Nelvis knows about those as well? 

3 A Yes, he does. 

Q Do you know if Nelvrs ever told Monica Lewlrs<y 

; z’about that bag of 1fts.7 

[E. A No 9 that I know of No 

,7’ Q 

13 j came Into the 

Do you ever recall an occasion when the Prescent 

is: him. erther wit R 

antry where you work and he had a woman wt- 

: ia 1 asked 

him or In his presence or around him and 

you to leave? 

il?j A No. Never. 

i:z: Q 

;:s]respect to Nel? 

Do you know if he’s ever done the same thing wth 

Meanin 

: 14 1 pantry when Nelvls was 9 

he walked In with a woman into the 

here and asked Nel to leave. 

::si A No, I’ve never - Nelvis probably would have 

[~~;mentioned that to me if that would have happened, the 

[:7: President wanted some privacy. But I’ve never had that 

1 :s 1 happen or hrm mentioning that. 

(IS! Q Has that ever happened to you with respect tc any 

::o!other room in the Oval Office complex, like the dining room. 

: 2 I 1 the study? 

‘--I A I mean when I first started workin 

i;;IHouse. ma be the first month and a haff. 

the White 

x 

maybe 9, o months 

iz4 Iwhen I wo ed there, I would get the look like please leave 

;z5:the room, that’s inside the Oval Office now, on staff 

[I 1 meetings because I was - you know. it was a new group in 

Page 23 

rzlthere. a new administration and the weren’t comfortable with 

!3]what I was doing and then after tha ty everything went really 

[!clageirts - either uniformed or non-uniformed - who were 

1111 around the Oval Office area?” 1~.1 

[I21 “Answer: Passing by, saying hello to them. You 

[ 1x1 know, casual conversation possibly. I mean, I’ve seen her 

[ 14 Ichat with everybody. That’s how 

Can you name any Secret 

crsonable s; was.“, 

ervlce emplo ees either 

I iz] uniformed or non-uniformed, that you’ve seen 

[ I 7 1 chatting with? 

on& Lewinsky 

A The onl 

I:: 1 would be what they ca x 

thing I can say is that during that time 

a shift around the President so 

[?s]you’re talkin 

[ZI lactual shift 9 

each shift might be 10. 12 people. But the 

wouldn’t know back then. 

:%;I was talkin 

fhe only ones that I knew that weregpennanent, when 

about uniformed division Secret ervrce that 

[:4)are posted w ere. offhand, let’s see. A person b the name 

[-5jof Gary Byrnes. A person by the name of Dan 8 rdakowski. And 

Page 24 

[ 11 there might have been one other Secret Service back then, but 

[z 1 Idon’t know how far back we can go with this. Those are the 

[31new ones. 

!41 Q Are these people that you remember or do you 

! 5 1 remember Monica Lewinsky speaking to those 

161 A Again, I wouldn’t - I can’t recall Re”Iole? er alking 

r7!specifically to them because, again, it’s more pass by, hey, 

~81 how are you dqing, great, you know, everything going great, 

rslyeah. and walking by. It’s kind of casual. 

Q You can’t name any particular uniformed or 

i :t i non-unifomed Secret Service employee - 

[I21 

[I31 

Aa That I know that she’s there - 

I141 A 

- that she s spoken to? 

-talking to directly? No. 

1151 MS. WIRTH: Okay. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 
2860 

65A Glen Maes, 517198 

Page 25 

BY MS. WIRTH 

Q So for the record. there’s no single person that 

I you can repember her speaking to. 

Yes. One person lrke her friend, comin 

i talking, no. Mainly to Nelvls or myself when,she’d wal 

Q 

’ conversations with any Secre Service employees, el her 

Since this star became public. have yu 

i. uniformed or non-uniformed. about Monica Lewinsky? 

A No. 

--. Q 

A 

To your knowled 

3 

e, has Bayani Nelvis? 

‘1:. Not that I know o No. 

.._ Q Have you ever seen Nelvis talking to any Secret 

:i. Service employees, uniformed or non-uniformed, about Monica 

: - Lewmskv? 

..:. ’ A No. 

; 

.-- 0 Have you ever heard from Nelvis that he had 

: I - discussed Monica Lewinsk 

: c either uniformed or non-un # 

with any Secret Service employees. 

ormed? 

A No. 

Q Is Nelvis friendly with any particular Secret 

:! f Service employee, either uniformed or non-uniformed? 

.--. A Agam. we were closer to the people I was talking 

: 12 -about because the ‘re there. When the President’s not in the 

.- I. office, that means ?hese k”rle actual? are holding their 

:ss. posttlon there, it means t at hose are he people we’re 

Page 26 

: : talking to. The two of us. besides Betty Currie or the aide 

.: -or Nancy Hernreich, those will be the key people we deal 

: I :with. I mean, it’s not too much more. 

-,- 0 Okay. So you would sa then that Nelvis was 

: ; ‘friendly with Gary Byrne and Dan Orda l? owskl? 

A Atid tither members. Yes. 

BY MR. WI: iENBERG: 

.: Q Who are some of the others he’s friendly with? 

Recallrn 

; i f :Gary B m& Dan Orda owskl. Hmm. I’ll keep on thinking 

: : : about I If 0; want to 

R 

back the Secret Service back then, again, 

o to the next question. 

.-- .+? LY MS. WI&: 

, --. Q How about Sandv Vernal) 

. _. A Sandv Vem; 

i 1: -there, but she left. z 

3’s one. But. see. Sandv Verna was 

. 

; Q 

-:- there? 

Was he friendly with her, though, while she was 

,. =: 

.--_ A Yes. She talked. She left post because of medical 

: : -. reasons and then she came back for a small amount of time and 

:I: -she left. She wasn’t there that Ion 

._. 

.-- Q What about Brent zhinery? 

.-- A Brent, no, he was not permanently assigned. But, 

:: 3. again, I’m talking about the Oval Office. With these people, 

:I r these key people here. You’ve 

; 1: Office. meaning the lobby, the d P. 

ot eople outside the Oval 

es Wing lobby to the West 

; Win8 basement lobby, to a)pcst that was over by the Rose 

Page 27 

Gar en. Those people, ag n, we talked to, they’re there. 

I So - but the kev olavers at the Oval Office. she was one of 

them temporari$.’ ’ 

0 Have you ever seen Nelvis talking to Brent Chinery? 

A Yes. 

. . 

0 After Monic+Lewinsky left e.m,ployment at the White 

i House. on now man 

: seeing her back at t 6 

occasions approximately do you recall 

e Whrte House? 

A When she left. I didn’t know the exact date when 

i she left but I would ima Ine ma be four times five times. 

I Again, i wouldn’t know t!e exac?amount of tides. See I 

::: can’t recall exactly when she left. If you had a date, maybe 

:::.lcansaymoretoit. 

-:i Q Well, of the four or five times that ou remember 

-. _ : -. seeing her after she left, do you remember specl 4 IC 

: : -. occasions? 

.. : A Yes. She would come b and sa hello to us at the 

’ pantry, how you guys doing. great, and Y alk a lrtt ,Y e bit and 

if _. hen she would leave. She would have other people she would 

: I : see that I know of on the grounds because she was - after 

: I I that, she would leave the area. 

.:I Q And do you recall any specific time of day that you 

:: I would see her after she left the White House? 

.^Z A It would vary, but mainly it was during - I’d say 

OlC-Starr 

XMAXIYS) 

Page 28 

:: -about 2:O0. 3100 in the afternoon. offhand. 

.- Q 

‘: 

.- A 

Dunn3 the week7 

Q 

Yes, unng the week. It was about that timeframe 

; there? 

And did you have any knowledge as to why she was 

; A Just stopping by to say hello. We’ve had other 

‘-‘staff members. they turn around and work there. came back and 

‘9 ,said hello. They might be at a function, come back and say 

: 2: hello. 

. . 

.-- Q 

::::you In the 

And when she would say hello, she would come to se 

antry area? 

.--_ Al 

::?.call that - 

Mm-hmm. Outside in the hallway. Yes. Or we’d 

Q I’ll show 

i 1: i Grand Jury Exhibit GM- 7 

ou what has been previously marked as 

:;_c; A The walkway. The walkway. Yes. Walkway 1. 

.._. Q Okay. So that’s where she would be when she came 

if?iback tovisit you? 

. . ~, 

.--_ A Right. 

i?3! Q And she’d come to the pantry door? 

r-7 i 

,--. A 

!:z: Q 

Right. In that area right there. 

Did you notice on those occasions what direction 

:r?:she was walkin from? 

:z4 A ghe’d walk from both areas because I know she WOUI 

[:slgo down this direction. the Chief of Staffs office space, 

Page 29 

:::and then the other direction we wouldn’t know because 

: z! normally we’re ri ht here, so she can’come anywhere from this 

;j!area. from the co 9 lonade, and come up in here. Or she could 

[ 4 : come from the lobby and cut throu h here so there’s a lot of 

~s~multloie areas she can come out o 3 

iEi Q Okay. But when she came to see you, it’s your 

:-: testimony that she could come either from the direction of 

: e 1 Walkway 2 or from the vicinity of the Chief of Staffs 

:9]office? 

[:C: A Walkwa 1. Right. Walkwa 1 and Walkway 2. Yes. 

;::: 0 Do you z now anybody else r hat she came back to 

::z)visit besides you? 

:131 A Not staff members, but we knew she stopped by and 

; 1:: seen people, but I wouldn’t know. I know one of them was 

: :S 1 Betty Currie. She stopped by to see Betty. Always said 

; 161 hello. No matter when she came out, she always said hello to 

rli!Betty. But other staff members, no. Again, I can recall her 

: I 5: being with somebody, but I wouldn’t know, again, who she was 

[~s;actually with at the time. 

IZCI Q 

I:; 1 Ba ani Nelvis 

Do you know if Monica Lewinsky has ever asked 

; z? 1 of f+ 

if she could get in to see the President on one 

IS tnps outside of Washington? 

[‘i] A No. 

!?4; Q Do you know if Bayani Nelvis has ever identified 

; 2 5 ; Monica Lewinsky in the White House as someone other than who 

I: !she was? For example, as a cabinet secretary’s daughter or 

Page 30 

[:!some other individual other than who she was when she was in 

i 3: the Oval Office area? 

[4i A No. 

[S! Q Do you know if there was ever an occasion where 

! 6‘an body saw Monica Lewinsky in the White House and you or 

17: Ne Y. VIS had to ex lain to them who she was? 

i3: A 

Q 

l&eat that agatn, please? 

[91 Do you know of any occasion when an 

[ 13 1 Lewinsky in the White House, specifically in the West 

body saw Mo 

bing, 

[:~!and erther you or Nelvis had to explain to that person who 

;;zlshe was? 

,_31 A I would - I can’t recall it happening, but it 

[ :: Iwould be very easy to tell - like I was talkm 

1: 5; Service, when the changed that post for U B 

about Secret 

r:;;possibilrty, who IS 7 

or PPD. there’s a 

hat person, because she might have an 

i 17 iA pass on, what I was talking about before, passes, that 

I 19 !would be an appointment pass, who is that. Because they 

r?slahays 

:zolsald it’s ?A 

uestion that,, who that is. And, again, we might have 

onica Lewlnsky. okay, we know who she is, oka 

I?!: Q Of the Secret Service a ents that you reca I Nelvls 

r::;being friendiy with or s 

’ 8 

Y 

eaking to, and think ou told us 

[: 3 1 Gary Byrne, Dan Orda R OWS~I. Sandy Verna, rent Chine 

[: I 1 you know whether he ever dlscussed Monica Lewinsky WI h any 

i 2 5 1 of those people? 

r,do 

Page 25 to Page 30 
2861 

Glen Maes, St7198 XIIIIIU&c\ 111 

. ._ 

Page 31 

A No Tt-e knew who she was. they saw he: in the 

,j -i way. Again. there S Monica. I guess tf thats what 

I ,:j’re ookfn at - 

.L B’?MR W?SENBERG: 

: Q Dtd he ever talk or joke about Monica7 

.- A A cute girl. That’s about it, maybe. 

A JUROR. Mr. Maes. could you tell me or if you can 

it zcall could you tell me who told you that Monica s new job 

- *as a promobon or a movement u ? 

::: THE WITNESS: No. t i 

;.. 

at was ma feeling that it was a 

romotion, leaving the White House, which she had, because we 

! i.f row when they’re Interns working there and they move up. as 

[::.I cok at it, they turn around, now she’s no longer an I pass 

~1; exh 8s intern pass. new she turns around and she has a blue 

: : :. zaass or what other - a yellow,or orange pass and they move 

::c uc and they’ve got a patd posttton. That’s all I knew. She 

::-.gt a paid 

..; I-- bl 

osttlon. 

nd then when they leave and they say they’re going 

: I: :o the Pentagon,.yes. they’re working on the outside. so the 

.- _. odds are they’re just junior staff, now they 

9 

et to go to 

;:I-somewhere etse. be R anywhere in DC., S ate Department, 

(::.ws’ve had people leave to pc to State Department, and they 

~:I.TOV~ in position up which ts good. And I aiways felt that 

i:; ts a very ositiive thtng. So, mysetf, I’m saying that she 

::5 -got promo P ed by doing it That’s the way I looked at it 

Page 34 

..-. Q Other than that. 

A Because it wasn’t onl 

f f i : staff. too many Interns were coming 

her, it was because of 

: : : : they’re bringing friends in to walk by 

::: :the President wasn’t there and saytn 

:~c:Office’~ and then walking by. Agarn, 

“Hey, there’s the Oval 

?veh(n Lieberman nobcad 

:;:-that. noticed that she would stop by and alk to us and why 

:: 4 : is that person here, she’s got a job to do., Again, she’s 

: : 5 : Deputy Chief of Staff at the trme. her job IS to make sure 

Page 32 

,. 

.-. BY MR. WtSENBERG: I-. 

5$X?. 

Q What other things other than cute g,irl did you hear 

ple talking about wtren they kind of talked and joked about 

onrcao You and/or Neivis and/or the Secret Service detail 

~~~tvces. You said one example would be they might say cute 

:i.g?or somithin ,lik$ that. 

. _ 

._ w :- 

.r. Q vv;tat other are you sa ing? 

‘Z x 

; It:Monica.” 

A It would be iike who‘s t at and I’d say, “Oh, it’s 

“Oh. cute looking girt.” Yeah.“ At the tjme when 

:::-she was an intern. then as trme went by, her wartong there. 

::::you know, 

i::.mtem and Y hey’d have to run things from one offica to the 

ou saw her on a daily basrs because she was an 

[:; other office space, you saw more of that transition back and 

[:s.forth. 

[Lt. And then after that, it became -her working 

1 L- position. I uess. when she worked in the East Win , we saw 

[:T iess of her % ut she still had to transfer her a erwo Aback 

[ : i and forth. And then when she teft the Wh e 

up R 

ouse and then 

‘- -. you rarelv saw -- . her .._. 

tzL :‘-- --‘--‘That’s wh I’m saying whatever the date, the 

:z:~nrneframa we were tv alkma about. that she took that position 

izs’in the Pentagon. it kind ofreferred to how many tim& we 

:L; might have actual1 seen her in that area. .*: i-- Q Didiyou aH joke or were there jokes about - 

.- -~~~ 

Page 33 

.; again, amon 

:: were there jo 3 

this same group or any members of this group, 

es about the amount of bme she ended up 

; ; hanging around the West Wing area? 

ii iike that. 

A No, it was really - it wasn’t really brought up 

Q You mentioned delivering paperwork. Were there 

” *es or comments about the frequency of her deliveries of 

: I pawwork for the President to sign? 

‘: A No. No. Again, that wasn*t for the President. 

: : That was her job workrng in the East Win and bnn 

If-paperwork to what ever office space she ?I ad to go 9 

ing 

o So it 

:: doesn’t necessarily mean the Oval office. 

: - position at the bme. 

iF Cl All right And my question to you is - 

: I?1 ask it sii htly differently. You’ve mentioned there 

tt m ‘9 hthava %een comments like “cute rl,“gresumably 

-. nc lono after she started as an intern. ut rd the 

5: group o”f people - f take it you’re a select group, 

I; you’ve got yourself Nelvis, these Secret Service uniformed 

: c psople, you kind of get to know each other, it’s not a 

: 5 big group. 

Page 35 

:: : personnel work so - 

._. 

.-. Q Tell us about that again. 

‘f’ A Okay 

Q As best ou remember, tell us about that 

:Z : conversation between 2 

: i: there, what she said. 

velyn and yourself and whoever else was 

.-. A 

: 5: myself. 

Basically it was between Evel n Lieberman and 

N&is was in t e area and she talk eJt0 me. She 

:. oes “Glen ou know, we can’t have thus going on.“. f says, 

:rt:%&t is that& She turned around, “I can’t have the interns 

:z: f coming in, stay in! in this :” not realdy rntems, ,but 

: 1::: staff, ‘coming In ere in thus area an holding Irk@ that.” 

: 12: Isays. “Yes, ma’am.” She goes, ‘We’re gorng to have to keep 

.T. this area free.” “Yes. if 5 : we’ll have to redirect.” 

ma’am,” She goes, “If we have to, 

I can remember she said redirect, meanin 

11’ : if you want to look at your dia 

: I E f throu h the West Wing bbb 

ram, 

R 

going throug a Iznl&ly 

ere, so it would actually divert 

: : 2 : from 

:_t :Hattw!y $ down &’ 

ere comm from the 

ts hallwa F 

est Wing and the collonade, up to 

:z: :the stairs or to the Chief of 

here into the k&by, back down 

taWs room. Kee It away 

:TL: Ifrom 

,% 

oing through Walkway 1 and Walkway s aS much as 

I::-: posse le, just beln out of those two areas. .-*. ..-r. BY M.&VIRTH: 

.-- Q And that ~nve~at~on that Evelyn Lieberman had 

Page 36 

::: with you forlow;;,a visit from Monica Lewinsky, right? 

._. 

.-. 

.: .-, BY fvi<-tiISENBEfV-2: 

3: Q How do you know it was about-the last time you 

5. testified that it had to do with Monica Lewinsky. How did 

: 5 : you know it had to do with Monica Lewinsk ? 

._. A Because the time she was t K ore and she spoke right f 5 i after she left the area. That’s the oniy reason why I even 

: 5 : me~ioned that. .^. 

if f her name. 

Q Did she reference Monica? I don’t mean necessarily 

._ 

i !5tmeanin 

A Well, she meant staff. When she turned around - 

volunteers interns, she just didn’t want the place 

- . ciutterej with people. .-_I_ 

.. i- Q Well t didn’t mean necessar’ Hefatly did shf? 

f i : mention h& bv n&rink. but did 6he re ?~~n~~~t parson Hrho . .._

!izIwas just here? .‘Z’ 

.--_ A No. 

._ i- Q 

f i 5 t Monrca visit. 

Okay. But it’s clear to you it was prompted by a 

_^. 

.--, A Yes. ._“. 

;;;;left? 

Q And did you discuss this with Nel after Evelyn 

:;-I: A Yes. I discussed to him uickly and, again, I 

: 2 5 : don’t know how much he heard. t says, R, 811, they’re tryrng 

Psge 31 to Page 36 

.-_ . -- ~~ --.-- 

OlCStarr 
2862 

Glen hlaes, 5/7/98 Xuulti7) 

Page 37 

_. 

:. to keeo thus place clear.” And he krnd of lake - ‘Well, ou 

- kncx. okay.’ But I believe when I was :alkrng to her, r was 

!. in b-a: nailway. a 

.G jhere w?en I was 9 alking to her. Her and I were having a 

ain, Hallway 1 over nere. and Nel was over 

:z:conrersatron together and there’s a good possrbllrty I would 

.c’say 17 rnrs -where I’m pointing nght now - 

Q 

_z: 

Where were you when you were talking with Evelyn? 

.-. A Here’s Evelyn Lieberman’s office. i Q Right. 

A Evelyn Lieberman - we were talking to Monica in 

~<~~Haliway 1 right here - 

.._. 

_--_ Q Okay. But it’s just - 

‘lj: A “4‘ Q 

Walkway 2 - 

Hold onJust a second. In terms of our map, agatn. 

: f 5 j it’s Walkway 1, correct. 

I:<’ A Walkwa 1. 

::-I Q It’s Wal % way 1 on the map. We just need to be 

;:s:clear because - I. 5. A Walkway 1, Walkway 2 IS where Evei 

i_:jcoming through. Walkway 1, by the pantry, IS where r 

n Lieberman was 

was 

::::talking- .^^. 

_--: Q To Evelyn. 

‘-5. A We were talkin to Monica Lewinsky. Evelyn 

it; f Lsberman through Walkway 9 walked into Walkway 1, bypassed 

::s; us. came down to her office space and then Monica from 

Page 40 

Q Ail right And Nelvis has rematned a: :ne par:? 

f area. 

A 

Q ??$ All right. How Ion 

-; s just moments after Monrca has skeda 8 

after - I ta<e R thts 

dled off or walked 

I away. 

._ A 

-; and a half. 

I would say no more than a minute. rraybe a minute 

:I Q Pardon’) 

_-- I- 

: If that’s wh 

Q 

Maybe a mrnute. minute and a hatf 

No more than a minute or a minute and a hatf. And 

::I oy this fv&Iica &it. 

there s no question rn your mind rt was prompted 

,- A That I know of. There was something released ahea 

it; of time, maybe two months 

+ 

rior to that, about keeprng the 

:I area free and I can’t recall I It was a document, paperwork 

:I- -on tt, saying, you know, “Let’s keep thus area free.* And 

::i then she nobced more traftic goin 

9- 

through there, that I 

:: 5. know of, that’s why she even men roned It. .^_ 

_--. Cl Now. how agitated did she seem? 

._. A Not too agitated. It was ‘ust like you know. 

is! We’ve got to keep the hattways free. ” Like shk wasn’t 

unding on me. zip” Hey. it’s your fault, guys,” or anyVr!ng 

Ike that She never brou ht that up. 7-z I_. Q She’s kin r? of a no nonsense person. though. right? 

“.._____~ i--__ 

Page 38 

: : 1 Walkway 1 had letI and the direction I would imagine would be 

:~:to go back to Walkway 2 back to an office here in the East 

-z:Wrng 

:;; Q Awa from Evelyn, ht7 

A Righl And then Eve yn Lteberman came back out and 

i zisaw me and it was 

“p ., 

approximate1 this doorway right here where 

: - 1 we had a talk. Nel was over by Y he pantry, so you’re talking 

.j :from here to the lad 

: zidistance we were. x 

in blue right there. is about the 

nd she was taikmg to me directly, she 

I 3 ! wasn’t talking to him because of the distance. 

. . , 

,--. Q 

,:::right. 

Okay. So hold on. Let’s make sure we get it 

‘15; A Okay. 

::.!: Q Origrnally, Monica is talking to you and Nel in 

; s?Waikway 1 on your map, GM-l, correct? .^ _. 

_c_. A Oka 

..__ Q For r rame of reference, for the record, we’re 

j f 5 j looking at Grand Jury Exhibit GM-l, coned? 

.. 2- A Right. 

.-_ Q Monica is talkin 

:! f j outside the pantry door. Is tha B 

to you and Nel in Walkway 1 

correct? 

.--: A Correct. 

I-11 Q And all of a sudden, from the area of Walkway 2, 

i F; i from the area of Walkway 2, down ccmes Evelyn Lieberman. 

‘L31 A Right. 

Page 59 

Q 

:: :all. correct? 

She passes you all, doesn’t talk to you, passes you 

.-. 3 A Conect. 

-4‘ Q Then Monica heads off back you think, up through 

- i Walkwav 2 and out in that direction. correct? 

‘;; ’ A Correct. 

_. Q 

: ; IS that correct? 

Evelyn turns around, ulmes back and talks to you. 

1;: A Correct. 

. ~. Cl All right. And meanwhile. Nelvis has wandered off 

j f i f somewhere. Where is Nelvis? 

.._. A Approximately at the pantry and I was already down 

: 1: i here by the door. She calls me - 

::a: She calls, you; Okay. 

_. :. 

2 

Yes. ma am. She was Deputy Chief of Staff, so 

: :r:“Yes. ma’am.” 

.._~ Q Right. So she passes you by, but then she turns 

i : r i around at some point and calls you over, correct? 

.’ 2’ .--, A Rrght. .^.. 

. ..d_ Q 

:: : : right at this ent 

And you’re estimatin that you were talking to her 

% y the Roosevelt Room. 

. ..^. /--, A 

ay on Walkway 1 

redoorway. Yes. .^i_ Q Okay. The doorway to the Roosevelt Room that is 

i ! ; f just north if Wz;y;s;, correct? 

__ ____ _-- 

OIC-StaIl 

Page 41 

,. 

:I A Right. 

is type? 

Q Not what you’d call a real California touchy-feelie 

, 

f; know.” Nt It was “Glen’ you know you really shou n’t be 

“You know you really shouldn’t be doin that. you 

“Yes. ina’am.” She’s direct, to the point 

kp 

: +. doing this. ‘* 

;;:?es, ma’am.’ That’s rt. 

Q Now, what do you recall talkin 

j ;-Afterwards, when you discussed it with Net w 9, 

to Nel about? 

1::. recall the conversation being? 

at do you 

. . . 

.-- A Nothin really to say. He was like ‘Hmm. Okay.” 

.~. Q Well 8! 

i !$I R clear that he had hea rrI 

ou tell him what Evel n’had said or was 

what Evelyn had sar II ? 

,. , _i A I mentioned it to him, I don’t know how much he 

_ ~_. __. ____~ ~_.._ 

Page 42 

:: having the conversation with you was from about where you’re 

: 1. srttrng- now - 

: .-. A I would sa 

:’ Q To where I! 

10 to 12 feet. 

m standing, about 10 to 12 feet. 

A Ten to 12 feet. 

~~ _ -__--. ~~~- - 

Page 37 to Page 42 
2863 

es4 

Page 43 

Glen Maes, St?/98 XMAX(bl) 

Page 46 

Q What I mean is she was pretty tough about makrng 

.:-sure that nobod 

A J 

was In a place they shouldn’t have been. 

o. she never stood guard. peekrng around the 

:; comer, “Hey. what drd I tell you guys?” She never mentioned 

: 5 ‘anything like that. 

.- 0 So she wasn’t particularly tou h about that7 

._. A She was tou h in telling us. 

j 3 j this,” but she wasn’t eye ba ;1 

“l%ey. we don’t want 

mg the srtuatron. 

., ;: 

Q I’m not meanrng to suggest she stood guard duty 

L-U. A Right. No. 

: . .--. 0 But it was a matter of concern to her and she 

::: : didn’t hesitate about telling you if she didn’t like 

: : 3 : something that was going on. Is that correct? 

:::: A Correct 

/.L. L--. Q All n 

% 

ht. 

;:G.shouldnY be, she di 

And if somebody was where they 

::-:correct? 

n’t hesitate to tell you that. Is that 

::!‘ A ,*: She wouldn’t hesitate to tell them. too 

:--, Q I guess m;r pornt is,did things loosen up a bit In 

: r 3. that respect after she left. Get a httle laxer in teTms of 

A No. 

BY MR WISENBERG: 

Q The Monica Lewrnsky story broke in The Washingtcr Post on Wednesda 

i : been some publica Y 

January Zlst of this year and there had 

Ion of it in somethmg called The Drudge 

i. Report a couple of da 

1 

s earlier. 

I want to as you, around the bme that the Monica 

’ i. Lewinsky story broke and became public or in the three or 

j’fourday period prior to that, did anybody ask you to try to 

: I : get a hold if M;zca? 

__ 

-_ ‘Q ‘A& you aware of anybody asking either directly or 

: 5’ indirectly. do you know it or did you hear it throu h 

’ ‘somebody else, of anybody askrng Nelvis to try o get a hold 

-.:-of her? 

P 

_: 

..o. A No. 

Cl Are you enerall aware of the efforts that were 

:I,-ibeingmadeto etahol ofher. 

Ati. % ’ 

._ 3: :I.. 0 

.--: A 

&syou know a person by the name of Tim Keating? 

.-,, Q Whois he? 

-:3! A Ttm Keating worked for Legislative Affairs at this 

-:::tlme, worked on the second floor. HIS marn sup art was to 

: I 5 1 handle the congressional delegation on the Whi P e House side 

Page 44 

: :and he left that 

:: ;now, but he’s le R 

osition and I’m not sure where he’s working 

the White House since then. 

0 

A 

Fain recently, coned? 

i jioffhand a 

Not t \: at I know of. It’s been a while. I’d say 

c .Actually, ty 

ear and a half or more. It’s been a while. 

I wasn’t too far after D-day when we had that 

:- !Dday event. That I can remember, that I can recall. 

:’ - Q 

A 

What D-day event? 

; ; When we went to Hawaii, went out that way. He was 

:: : :mentioning that he’ll be possibly changrn 

- ,“Come on, you can’t be changing jobs. 

jobs and I said 

--. $0~ like this job.“’ 

:I I Because he was non-stop, day and night there. 

--1 Q Has he been in the Whrte House recently? 

. . -1, A I have not seen him. no. 

i. Q 

-:r;bme-- 

Do you know if he was in the White House around the 

A As a matter of fact. the last time I saw him was 

f 3 jduring campaigning. We went to Chicago for the DNC, was the 

: 2 1 last time I saw him. 

__j Q 

A 

That would have been in the ‘96 campaign? 

__! Right. That I can recall. 

1:: Q 

_2! A 

;-t;ehf ever spoken to you about Monica Lewinsky? 

z;! MR. WISENBERG: All right. We’re going to ask you 

: F : if you’ll step outside for a few minutes and then we’ll come 

Page 45 

; I and get you. 

;: THE FOREPERSON: 

Ma the witness be excused momentarily? 

-. He may. 

.-, 

Kiss excused. Wfiness recalled.) 

R WISENBERG: Let the record reflect the witness 

i: has reentered the 

Madam p 

rand jury room. 

ore 

THE FOREPERSON: 

erson do we have a quorum? 

Yes we do. 

MR. WISENBERG: 

-I? 1 present in the rand ‘u 

THl?FOR~P~R”s”o”N?: 

Are there any unauthorized persons 

No there are none. 

..~. 

--_ Mr. Maes ou are still under oath. 

13: THE WIT&SS: Thank you. Yes. 

-1:: BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Mr. Maes. after Eve n Ltebennan left, did things 

: +! loosen up a little bit in terms of wha 1 was allowed and not 

1-j allowed in the West Wing area in terms of traffic and things 

: : lrke that? 

i: I 1 simply people getting worked up about somebody maybe being in 

I^^ lthe wrong place, in a particular hallway, at a particular 

:5;itime? .^,. A I don’t see where really it laxed up, but I’d say 

i 1; i if you’re looking at it that way, maybe ti laxed up maybe for 

Page 47 

: : : a couple of weeks, maybe, maybe not -/ 

:j: Q 

A 

All right. Why just a couple of weeks? 

Because, again, the normal trafhc was there. I 

.4 imean. you still had people, still interns. volunteers 

s 1 Again, volunteers but mainly interns that would have to walk 

: ;:there. And added onto our staff that walked through there, 

i 3 !nothin like. hey,, boom, ou rdn’t see anybod ’ else and 

: !so It was -to me, it was;re, normal. 

; o; ou’d 

I mea; tt was 

ear the cnckets c rrprng at you or some hrng lrke 

;;,;jY”at. !was never Iii that. 

._1: Q No si nificant difference. ,.^, 

_.-, A Not a arge difference. 

- -< 1 

.--, Q After Evelyn left. 

:;41 A Right. 

Q And what kind of difference if an 

i iii after she left in the way things operated in the 

was there 

!:-: A, 

V&t Wing? 

Again, we wouldn’t know how much the s aff would 

: :s !know about It because,. again. she was just telling me I 

: i 3: mean, she coutd have rmplied like, “Hey, you’re nght there, 

::o] ou’re responsible for that area, lets keep it cool, okay?” 

iI: 1 fo me, that’s hpw she was rmplyin 

::lltell everybody In the office space, 

it, so I’m not going to go 

;:-iicareful.’ 

*%-t ey, you got to be 

:24: Q I’m not talkin about that particular incident. 

::sithough. I’m talking about - B et me give you an example. 

Page 48 

:: 1 It’s generally thou ht b 

;z 1 that, as an examp 9 e. w t; 

some people, whether true or not, 

en Leon Panetta became Chief of Staff 

: 3 i after McLarty left that things tightened up a bit in the West 

: 4) Wing, that there were not as many people, for instance, with 

: 51 as eas 

: s)And. ,o fv 

access into the Qval Office. He ran a ti 

course, Evelyn Lieberman was his depu 

hter ship. 

I 7 1 a while. So that’s what I mean. 

R , at least for 

I’m speaking in general 

I?! terms. After Evelyn Lieberman left. was it as tight a ship 

; 2~ in the West Wing - 

-. 7, 

.--, A As leaving office ou’re talking about? 

. . . , !A-. Q When she left an ?d went to Vocce of America. 

il?! A Okay. 

L131 Q 

[I 4 ; ship in 

And she wasn’t there any more, was it as tight a 

the West Wing? 

!15] A 

[:hi Cl 

To me, it flowed the same. It flowed the same. 

Oka 

::?I kind of the rote of Ey 

Now, is there a person who has taken over 

velyn Liebennan? I don’t necessarily 

;:s:mean the same position as Deputy Chief of Staff, but someone 

;:s!who kind of goes and makes sure, he 

!2o 1 get out of here; your dress is too sho I! 

you shouldn’t be here, 

, get out of here; 

::I lcoming up to you and saying I don’t like interns rn this 

j,:!area? 

;,3: A Well, we have our De 

[: I ! now Sylvia Matthews or John Podes P 

uty Chief of Staff which is 

~25 IChIef of Staff. 

a. Those two are Deputy 

They’re kind of - their job is part of it, 

P&ge 43 to Page 48 OlCStarr 
2864 

q SA Glen Maes, 5l7198 xM*X(sm 

Page 49 

; : -directing. makmg sure that the Presrdent’s in his prtvate 

‘11 holding room and knowin 

: ?,would say ‘We don’t nee 3 

who’s who rn the room lrke they 

thus person here, please leave 

0 All naht. So they would both do that function. 

A Yes.- 

izci 

i15] 

A 

Do you know Debi Schiff? 

Yes, I do. 

Q Who is she? 

_ _____-_._.._-____ __-... 

Page 50 

A She IS the rece tionist to the West Wing lobby. 

iii Her job title is to handle the WPest Wing guests coming in. 

L 3 1 She would know all the guests that come into the West Wing by 

[ 4 ; a data sheet, every time they go through the gate, It would 

[ 5 1 register IJ~ who thei were so shed know, a senator to Garth, 

[ 6 I Brooks, s e would now everybody comrng Into the West Wrng. 

i :jAnd some of it would be ‘ust to see status, someone would be 

! 4 1 seeing the President of t /I e Untied States. 

!zishe would 

So it just - she would have the incomtng flow and 

hold them for entertainment purpose, meaning to 

lllgive them some beverages, make sure they’re relaxed, 

zjcomfortable. and then handle the Kenned Center. 

i31 The Kennedy Center was a brg .Y. hrng she had because 

id 1 

7 

ou’re talking that’s the place to go to and everybod 

c! 

wanted 

151 hese tickets to the Kennedv Center. She controlle all 

:sithat. That’s her ‘ob. That’s.how I know her. 

17: Q df course, she’s gone now, right? 

.q: A Yes. --> 

191 d 

A 

Recently transferred to - 

i P ibelieve, to 

To State Department, working as deputy assistant. I 

rotocol. 

?21 & Do you ever recall an incident where Debi Schiff 

z31was walking around the West Wmg area in the Presidents 

~nishoesl _ , _ _ _ _ 

2 5 ] A No 

Page 51 

:‘;!!like I’m saying. the shoes WIII come down the valet will 

:* ;icome outside in Walkwav 1 and set thinos down for the 

Q Did you hear about her doing it? 

A No. 

A JUROR: Mr. ?&es, I’m confused. Where do you put 

Page 52 

1. the shoes? In the stud 7 You 

THE WITNE.&S: 

ut it outside the study? 

i.this. the diagram, if 

V&II. what hap ens. like I sa 

r 

ou have one of those? B he valet wou Y, d

by 

: 1 bring cloth~~~Rw~R?r htm. It coukl be kke - 

:, 

si 

-. 

9 i personal items? 

“ THE WITNESS: In the hallwav riaht there. 

: i 3 i Depending - 

_ _ 

::I! A JUROR: In the hallway? 1 .i 

.--. THE WITNESS: Because. again. not to make 

.:3: A JUROR: The President’s - 

::41 BY MR. WtSENBERG: 

:151 Q On 

::61 A Y; 

our map, which hallway on your map? 

Tha s Hallway 1. 

.::I Q Okav. Where? 

:I?! A 

::9! 

:131 no 

;:?I 

-zzI A0 

::31 

:241 

:?S] 

Hallway 1 right here. 

Ru&%rZ~e. 

Or down here? 

~~~~~t~ner - the interior - 

Walkway 1 on your map. 

Page 53 

it - 

:11 A 

.-, 

:;jstudy. 

Q 

:41 A 

i 51 that. 

!6l 

:7j Aa 

Walkwai Okay. o ‘: tn other words not the hallway off the 

No. Walkway 1 outside the pantry door, outside of 

All ri ht. 

And w ere they would set down - if the President’s 

: 9 1 in the back. They’re not ust going to take stuff back to 

; 3 1 his study. You have the bo okcase 

: : o 1 suit, 

up here and they’ll the 

: : I 1 take F 

ut a suit up here, put fresh shirts all ironed up, 

IS shoes, set them down nice and neat here. And then 

‘:z I walk back out. 

Q Where IS this? 

A 

Q 

This will be inside, the President’s private study. 

A 

Okay. .But that’s d he’s not there. 

That s if he’s not there. 

:I71 Q Now, if he is there - 

A If he’s having lunch or something, the 

/lilthe clothes out in the hallway - wait a second - Wal 

20 1 hold the clothes out there and then put the shoes down t 

: : : 1 open our closet, we have a closet direct 

‘): 

across the hall 

: zz 1 that opens up. and they put the surts in t ere and hotd them. 

.231 Q And that’s in Walkway l? 

:yq, A On Walkway 1. 

:I51 Q Okay. All right.. So if you’re looking at your 

Page 54 

: I 1 ma it would be up against where we see the Roosevelt Room, 

: z 1 on P* he other side of the hallway? There’s a closet? 

A Right. And we’ve actually had people kid around 

i:i because the President’s size of the shoes, xou know, thedre 

.SI like ‘Wow, look at the size of those shoes, Like, “Geez. 

i 6 pbd they’ll walk up next to the shoe, put your shoe next to 

; 7 j it. He’s got a pre bi foot there. 

.Jl MR WI !z Et&ERG: 

9 ! those lines? 

Okay. Any other questions along 

I!31 A JUROR: 

: : I j walkway - 

So then if somebody’s coming through that 

;;;;ves. 

THE WITNESS: They would see the clothes there? 

____ ._-._~_____~._. ..._I__-___- 

OIC-StatT 

~~. -._-- 

Page 49 to Page 54 
Page 55 Page 58 

In 11 years. I’ve never seen one. No. Never had 

Okay. All right. Tell us about this -this has 

::. A It doesn’t go that far out. The study - 

-‘offhand - actual). see thts wmdow? Thts IS a window. 

j i ! Window here, th&e are the two wrndows. 

:i: Q Raht. 

i:. a-, A So-that means these trees are actual1 ri ht hen 

._. r .-. 0 Ins!ead of in the first area where vou HB a then- 

-1 A Rcht. 

je, Q Okay. Would you draw a line through where yx 

I 9 i thouPht _ they were? 

[I,,) R Yes. 

iI‘; A JUROR: How tall are those trees? 

‘;2; THE WITNESS: 

[:3!16foothei ht. 

I would say 14 foot, maybe ever .p to 

ire: w JUROR: 

; 1 j ; out the window - 

If you were standing tn the study lookrg 

THE WITNESS: If you were looking out the windoes. 

1 ::“I the window that’s closest to the tree, the 

Ty 

‘re 

[I a 1 that view. You can look into the pabo. 

not blocking 

: I 3 1 you’re lookin 

he other window, 

9 

directly into the patio. And then the dining 

[ 2 o 1 room, you’re ookrng Into the patio. 

So ou have three windows that directly look into 

i$ j the patio and hen 

{23110oks down the ’ wa 

ou have a doorway with a glass door whir? 

Lay toward the swimming pool. 

(241 A JUROR: From the study, the windows that are I- 

[ 2 5 j the study, if you were in the study and looking out, could 

2865 

ESA Glen Maes, 517198 xw.x(r0-u~ 

_~____.__~ 

Page 56 

‘1 Ibeen described to investigators as this area that on the map 

1:; says Room 110. That might actually refer to a room not on 

: 3 1 this floor. 

!41 A There’s no Room 110. 

:51 Q Okay. So this - because 111, I think you’ve told 

j61USf7i A This is a patio out here. This is just - almost 

; 8 j like a ventilation system, the way this is desi ned it’s a 

; gjwall about - ma be four and a half, five feet 

$. I 

rgh rn 

:?c]heght. but tts a Y ot of gravel and sand. You can’t get in 

!; 1 Ithere. That’s what this is showing. 

[X; Q So Room 110 on your map is a patio, correct? 

::31 A Is a patro. Yes. 

;141 Q And its a 

8 

atio over Room 110 and on the other 

: ! j 1 Side of what you’ve calle a ventilation area of some kind is 

f 15 1 also a patio, correct? I. ,_7! A This is a pnvate patio and the size -do you want 

;i8]rrXtOdraWOUt1191 Q Yes. Why don’t you draw the - why don’t you draw 

; ;‘o 1 for us what that atio is. 

i??l A &is was built in 1983 b 

~~~aduaily have a marker tight here and t fl 

President Rea 

P 

an. 

en there’s fum ure 

They 

;33i here. a round table, filling up this area with chairs around 

; ?I 1 it. And then there’s a lounge chair here, like patio type 

,: 15 1 furniture. There’s two of them right here. 

_. 

Page 57 

[iojpatio is. 

[I?1 Q I notice you’ve got outside the study - first of 

[ 12 1 all, on the map, outside the study, its 

.% 

ot a little - rt 

[:3rlooks like it almost might be a bay win ow. 

i:l! A This right here? 

[ISi Q Yes. 

A It’s not. What rt is, its a garden. It’s part of 

!!76ithe garden. The garden goes all the way across and it’s 

if 3 i about that high rndrcatrng). 

[l?i 

i:O: A 6 hi. 

Q I goes across the dining room and the study? 

;21i Q O?ay. Then you’ve got trees here. Does the patio 

[ :i 1 extend down any beyond where you ve got tt? Because I’ll 

[?3]tell you. we’ve seen something that indicates it might, but 

1-4 1 I’m not sure. You know, extend down over to where the study 

I 2 51 is. ail the way over to the study. 

Page 59 

[ I! you see peo le walkin by? 

[21 Tt$E WlTN&S: Oh, yes. Definitely 

iii BY MR. WISENBERG: 

too, where ycu 

THE WITNESS: ’ Who has authonzation? All the 

[ 9 1 Secret Service Normally, staff doesn’t, but you’re talking 

10 1 anywhere from uniformed division Secret Service - a 

I 1, don’t want to confuse everybod ffg 

ain, I 

2, 

because there’s dr erent 

12 1 types of entities that deal with ecret Service. You have 

13 1 uniformed division. PPD. which is Presidential Protection 

I 1 I Division, ERT, Emergen Response Team, and the CAT team 

15; A JUROR: g 

161 THE WITNESS: 

ey could be out on the patio? 

A JUROR: 

Yes. At any time. 

ii i through the windows, you could see the Secre Service men 

If you were In the study, lookrng out 

1 q 1 outside? 

THE WlTNESS: 

i y j standing out there 

Right. But it’s not like they’re 

__. A JUROR: No, no - 

THE WITNESS: 

A JUROR: 

They might be taking rounds - 

Strolling around. 

THE WITNESS: Exactly. Making rounds, going 

Page 60 

[ : j through there that’s how @ would be. 

iiithe patio? 

A JUROR: Is there anyone actually stationed out 00 

THE WITNESS: A 

i : 1 for the President. I don’t know 

arn. it depends on movement 

i 6 j that detail or not. 

% you want to p”t into 

(7 ~President. 

tt depends on movement o the 

I@1 A JUROR: But is there a regular post? 

[ ii! located 

THE WtTNESS: 

by the swrmming 

There’s a regular post, but it’s 

R” 

01, 

[I I j Again, the angle is way o 

the post stander is out there. 

, but, 

[ 12 1post area because the 

again, they’d walk out of 

kind of circulate through that area. 

[1X1 BY MR. WISyENBERG: 

114: Q 

ris:pool is? 

Can you estimate on your map where the swimting 

[!6j A You don’t have enough room on here. 

Cl71 Q Okay. But it’sA QfFhand say the ventilation area is here, then ycu 

1 if+! have a cabana - I’m going to go to jail here - but you have 

120 1 a cabana back here - there goes my clearance - and then the 

[ 2 11 swimming pool is right here, in the back, there’s a swimming 

rr3:pool here, okay? 

Q Oka Why don’t you point an arrow in the 

1:: i direction of where x e swtmmrng pool is since it’s - 

[?5! A How about if I just - I don’t know if you want me 

~. _..._. _ . ..-. ---. ------. __~ 

Page 55 to Page 60 UIC-starr 
2866 

Glen Maes, 5/7/96 xMAx(llIll) 

Page 61 

:-to -- this is the doorway co!--:g.back. I have Imle arrows 

- comtn 

.:0llt. 79, 

back here. The swlF_mlng 001 here comes out, extends 

e post would actually w r!g / t here. 

7 Q Okay Even south of the swlmmmg pool - 

: 

.cl t Righkit. 

A 

IS where the Secret Service persgn would be. 

co the angle you have is here. comtn here like 

: I j this. And it’s all clear way, looking all the way down Rre. 

: 3: Definitely clear. 

MR. WISENBERGz zi do. We are going to 

1’11 tell you what we’re going to 

et another sheet of paper but we re 

‘1: 1 going to get a blank s 9, eel of paper. 

MS. WIRTH: Can I ask a question7 

:::: BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q So this direcbon is south from here? 

A That’s south. 

A JUROR: Can we take a break? 

MR. WISENBERG. Pardon? 

.--. A JUROR: Can we take a break? 

‘--I MR. WISENBERG: A break? Yes. Can we take - how 

-II j about a five - a ten-minute break. .^^( .--1 THE FOREPERSON: Ten minutes. 

‘z;: A JUROR: Untess you’re close to bein finished. 

.-., __I: MR. WISENBERG: I think we’re very 8 ose. 

..:. A JUROR: Okay. I can wait. 

Page 64 

THE WITNESS: 

’ wcause there’s no certam 

They secure - they don’t set a time 

attern, so It’s not a bme they 

: I rey secure the Oval Of&e’a,. again, the% RT - I could go 

! azually have but usual1 Ii e In the evenm times when 

-5. r:a detail and detail, if you want it 

.i A JUROR: 

it-?ere once twice a da 

No, but I mean on the average, are they 

? 

THE WlTN&S: See again it’s not onl 

fz pave people that are Park Set& that take care of Y 

them. You 

8 acres 

:::.c’ pro 

::. pave r 

rty they take care of. The flowers nght there. You 

ark Service takin care of the flowers. There’s herbs 

‘1:.back there. Grooming t I! e grounds. So they may flush off the 

: tiewalks and that might be In the middle timeframe, like the 

:f;:rcaming. 

- L .--. A JUROR: 

:::.tf~ study. 

I understand. We’re only talking about 

.._: THE WITNESS: That’s what I’m trying to get at. 

i 1~: In that area, you might have different groups 

: :d!ere and I could go out there somebmes an 8 & 

oin through 

loo out there 

,-- -~-and you have two or three people working out there. 

“;: A JUROR: So if the President were asleep in the 

is:-reeking chair somebod could go b and see him inside. .‘i’ TH’E WITNE&: Yes. ind if they saw him t’s llke 

i siioaps and then the other direction, walk away. 

::::want to wake him up. 

They do&t 

Page 62 Page 65 

.I; BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Okay. All right. Let’s go ahead and put this 

:jjsheet - I’m giving you a blank sheet of paper. Is that 

; ; correct? 

5: A Do ou have some tape? 

.-. MS, WldrTH: I’ll see if I can find some tape 

.7. MR. WISENBERG: Okay. And let’s iust - I’m 

.,-:sorry - 

THE WITNESS: 1’11 out it to the line here and then 

: i :; draw this out. 

..: 

.--. MR. WISENBERG- Just for now ut it to the line - 

‘1; j put the 

THE WITNESS: I’ll put it to the e ,B 

ed e of that to the line. 

ge of this and 

1:’ &R. WISENBERG: Okay. 

..=. .--> 

‘-F‘ Pse$ R. WI ENBERG: 

I’! Wirth has returned with tape. 

Let the record reflect that Ms. 

.-II 

--. 

THE%fTNESS: 

All r’ ht. tet’s line it up exact1 

Y; 

the way - 

-*A Exactly. ng t here. l^^l MR. WISENBERG: All right.. Let’s do another one, 

.I i f too. All ri$h MR. WISENBERG: 

‘^i‘ Q You have now added to GM-l. 

-1 A GM-l. Right. 

-: 

--, Q And you have added the cabana and the swimming pool 

Page 63 

; ; and showeftd us;oh;;z!he Secret Service post is, correct? 

i MR. WISENBERG: I’m going to briefly show it to the 

; : grand jurors. 

:. A JUROR. Wait a minute. What is this? I’m sorry. 

MR. WISENBERG: We’ll 

-. A JUROR: ? 

et copies. 

We need clan ication from the witness. 

; 

MR. WISENBERG: 

A JUROR: 

Okay. We need clarification as to? 

About Secret Service people walking back 

.- 

:I 

:: 

.- 

:. and forth. 

THE WITNESS: There’s two areas where Secret 

f ‘Service will walk through. There’s one just outside the 

I: patio, there’s a walkway there. There’s another by the post 

; : area where they walk up the hill and go to the post area. so 

5 : there’s actually like two main entrances. 

;- The other side IS a fence line where it’s a hill. 

ey make their rounds? 

OIC-stan- 

,. 

,-. BY MR. WISENBERG: 

::. Q And who could come by and see him? 

1‘ A Again, it could be the Park Service 

L 4: doing the maintenance on the grounds and it coul 8 

eople that are 

be Secret 

j~;Se’vlce. 

!C Q How likely would that be, the President in his 

~?:stJdy, what’s been called the most private area of the Whde 

: s: House non-residence, how likely would that be that while he 

: 9‘ ts in the study somebody is 

.:o.tbat window and see him? & 

oing to walk by right outside 

e want to know how often would 

: :::that be likely to happen. based on your knowled e. .._I. *-. I? 

‘13: 

2 JUz&;hey actually saw the Prest ent there? 

f Could see hrm. Could see him. 

THE WITNESS: Could see him? I mean an 

iilianybody could see. The windows are never shut. What t i 

time 

ey 

:E are is a big drapery, so anybody walks through there, anybody 

.;q:can see htm. .‘i. .a>: A JUROR: The drapes are never closed? 

THE WITNESS: 

iitithe last time the hei 

No. Never. They’re - I explained 

9 

ht of them. I could turn around and 

: 11: stand on the ledge, he ledging, to get up there and unhook 

:z-:t!!em and they’re heavy drapes. They’re designed way back, 

rj’but they’re thtck, heavy drapes and they have to be pushed 

::~:up. re-locked into the position where they drape down like 

:rs:tha. come up and drop down again. 

Page 66 

Ii’ There is no shade to ull down, so you have an open 

~2 jmndow the whole time and he wtndow, for instance, is 

~3:probably about this wide. They’re all windows about yea wide 

I4; 

:5: 

pdicatin& ’ 

Y MR. ISENBERG: 

!6; Q You told us last time - I’m sorry. 

i7:. A JUROR; If the President was going to take a nap 

~8: In the daytime he does not close any curtains? .G‘ THg WITNESS: No. There is no - 

Again back then I would say out of a week, maybe 

i iilonce or twice o;t of a week’ he may go to the chair and 

j I 9; retax. But nowadays, he’s j;st so busy, he doesn’t have time 

:~jto go back there at all. 

:?I: A JUROR: If he were to sit in the chair and turn 

r?~;ttre back of the chair to the window, could people see him 

;z~;stUtng In the chair? 

‘741 THE WITNESS: Yes, you’ll see - it’s like seeing 

i zs@e back of someone’s head, like that. 

I____- _ __. _-. ___ 

Page 61 to Page 66 
2867 

Glen Maes, 617198 xwix(lu12) 

..-_. 

Page 67 Page 70 

BY MR. WISENBERG. 

. Q Is there anywhere you can be in the stuc$ and 

i i .not be visible to somebody walking by on the patro area 

A There is an area between the windows. probably - 

i ; \ offhand, I’m saying - maybe this way, because he has 

:,-:pictures up there. I mean, unless he turned around 

.- ?and put his back to it like that. and there’s stereo 

i 2 iequipment coming out which is about from here to here 

: j:(indicating,) there s a Irtt!e stand for them, agarn, I 

! ::: thank it’s a most tmpossrble. Unless he actually brought 

r :: ‘YOU out there and you actually saw what I’m looking at. 

{:ri$ou can’t. _ 

:-:- i-“. BY MS. WIRTH: 

,. . . Q Where is the desk in the study? ,--. 

--z, 

.*-. 

!” ,- *. :._. 

.- 

A The desk in the study would be - 

MR. WISENBERG: 

THE WITNESS: 

WouM you mark it on the map? 

Right - 1’11 draw it here. 

,.c. 

_--_ Do we want to take a bnef break? 

” >. j-__ 

MR. WlSENB;R$ 

A JUROR: 

:-“‘ MR. WISENBERG: 

izijwe take a brief break. 

And come back brie@? Why don’t 

.^?, 

. . . 

i::: THE FOSEPERSON: 

How Ion Madam Foreperson? 

t’m almost afraid. Ten - 

F-c, MS. WIRTH: Can I ask one ouestion before we do 

iii jthat? Just one question. 

Page 68 Page 71 

,.. 

_-. BY MS. WIRTH: I^. 

.-. Q Mr. Meas? i . .-, A Yes. 

. . Q Okay. You’ve drawn in - can you mark wrth a 0 

j ifwhere the desk is? pnd indicate what those other things are 

: E : that you’veAmarked in there. 

,-. Okay. I put a desk here. I’ll put a BK for 

i E j bookcase - or BC. BC for bookcase. And then ut an S 

: 5 1 right here for stereo and then right here is - wha P do 

: ::you call it - a table top - its about yea bi 

1: :put a T for table. 9, 

1’11 just 

It’s not really even a tab e, j,ust like 

.1. 

.-. 

,^. 

A Do you want me to complete this? 

Q Yes. Yes. 

3‘ A I don’t know how far you want me to go into detail 

: G jwith this. I could keep drawin and drawin 

Q Well, why don -9 you draw al P 

if you want. 

the trees that woukf 

1: :an end table. And then here IS a rocking chair. What they 

:3:were talking about, So it’s right in front of the window 

:z:here. 

c_- MR. WISENBERG: I think we have to take a 

fEzWe‘re aoina to take a break for 10 minutes and then we’re 

break. 

: ; i be there? And now you re just ~ntinuing the column down, 

i : ; correct? 

.-. A Ri ht These are kind of bushier pe trees. 

: 5 : Q ? rees across? ..*; O?ay. Now, how about across? 

.-“. A 

--:- 

,--_ Q 

Okay. And what It does is it goes into - 

And those are more trees you’re drawing? 

-._. 

.--_ A Right. 

.- ‘5’ 1 BY MS. WIRTH: 

::I: Q 

A 

And those are south of the swimming pool? 

.. 5- L--_ Yes. it would be. 

i: Q Is there anything between those trees and the patio 

f : 7 : in terms of other bushes or trees? 

::3: A No. What it is. 

: : 9. swimming pool. which is r 

ou’ve got the decking for the 

actua ty concrete. Let me see here. 

;: 2 1 So this is grass and ~rn~ure up here and chairs around it. 

: : : i Those are the chairs around that. This was built, I believe, 

::: : last summer. A little -acuui ht here. 

::3; BY MR. W/SENBE?G: 

:z4: Q Just put a J for where the jacuui is. 

:_‘5] A Jacuui right here. 

:- jgoing ti s&t back up. 

: C’ Ma the wetness be excused? 

.s: -*. Yes, he may. ^_. 

--_ 

TH& FOREPERSON: 

rtness excused. Witness recalled.) ^. R WISENBERG: Let the record reflect that the 

Fi fwitness has reentered the grand jury room. 

^_’ 

..-. Madam Fore erson do we have a quorum? 

:i: THE FOREPERSON: Yes we do. ^=. 

--_ MR. WISENBERG: Are there any unautho~~ persons 

Page 69 

*:.in the grand ‘u 

,_, 

.- T&?%%ERSQN: Absolutely no one IS unauthoriied. 

‘2‘ _-. BY MR. WISENBERG: ‘. 

z. a few 

Q Okay. Let me ask you a couple,of questtons, maybe 

uestions maybe six seven, eight questtons, about 

: z i this lit%! thjng y&‘ve drawn here. 

I- A 

:-_: Q %tYhad originally drawn what 

f ;:column of trees and then you said they would 

ou described as a 

g e over one and 

1: : : 1 notice now 

: : I : of circles tha r 

ou’ve got directly south of the study two rows 

you have marked with Xs. I._. \--_ A Right. 

i- 7’ Q And what does that represent? Did you mean for one 

i .- :i”of them be crossed throuah now? 

ilS. A This is cro’Ssed through. 

,.;. Q Okay. Why don’t 

i ; 1 Ithrouah that. You were slrahtlv o ii 

ou just cross throu h - a line 

on vour olacemen ? .-. _ 

‘12’ ia.. A And I’ll turniround andput down trees. 

[1?‘ Q Trees. Oka 

; I I i right. They form like a bor cy 

. So it’s the right - it’s to the 

:::.that correct? 

er on the side of the study. Is 

:_^. 

izi’ I know of. 

A Right. That’s to btock the view to the stud that 

I wasn t there when they designed it, but I wou %I 

1: 4 : imagine to ive the privacy to the patio. I-c- ,.._I_ 8 All right. 

._~ ~~ -. .__--. _~~_.___ .- _.-..- ~~.~ . ..-- - .._ _. _ 

Page 67 to Page 72 

_. 

: -walkway. 

: 

:-to - 

And I didn’t have ;7e other thong. it was a 

All right. Is that !re walkway you were re’emng 

Yes. I said there s two pornts. either up here or 

the back r&e here. 

en you‘ll have Secret Service people 

ii: -----~-~~-;4’ Yes. Watkin back there. 

_--. THE FOREPERS8N. Excuse me, Sol. 

. 

_--. MR. WISENBERG. Yes? 

.._. 

_--_ THE FOREPERSON. 

.r?.still under oath. 

I forgot to remind 

::4: THE WITNESS: 

.--. MR. WISENBERG: 

Thank you. 

Okay. 

BY MR. WISENBERG, 

YOU you’re 

.._. Q And YOU knew that. riqht? :.,: 

.--_ A 

Q 

Yes, 1 did. 

_--. Okay. Now, are there also some trees - you’ve 

::,z.drawn some trees to the right here. .?.: 

.--. A Right. .^^/ 

i f 5 j walkway. 

Q This column of trees. You‘ve now drawn us a 

Are there trees so that if you were lookin 

: 1; : directly out of the study you wouM also see a row o 3 trees 

:z~:straight back? 

Page 72 

i.. Q Fs forfurniture. Every place that you’ve drawn 

‘5 jfumiture, if you could do that. 

13: A Furniture, F - F - F - F - and then - you 

: 4. know - okay. But that’s bastcalty it. This comes all the 

j:;way down. 

-5. Q 

,-, . A 

All right. All right. How about over here? 

Yes. Really nothrng here. This is a hillside that 

i s; comes down, slopes okay? This comes down and then you have 

; 3 ! the gate whtch is - I’m going to go jail here. 

‘I>j Q No, no. 

.. 1, _-A, A I’m sittin here giving you all these details. 

.3>, _--3 ‘131 2 ~~~~~~~~~h~~~~ starts curving out this 

: : 4 rway. There’s a fence line here and a fence line here and 

: 1s: then the gate. So these are the gates and then the rounds 

I ; 6; and the roadway comes like thus. wrcles back up to 

i : 7: mansion this way. 

!I e 

::?! Q All right. And I want you to mark every place - I 

:: j:don’t mean every sin 

: 23 ; and done an arrow. 3 

le tree, but like here you’ve put trees 

ust make sure that we know -just put 

: 2: : trees wherever there are trees and I take it these are trees 

: ~2 ; here, too, over here. Is that correct? 

A Yes. Well its kind of-it’s weird because 

ii:$hese aren‘t actually tree& These are - they‘re called 

:zj;shrubbery. the tall, tall shrubbery. This is some tall 

~________I... _..____ _...-- -..- .- _. _-. ~~~~ ._ -_ 

OIc-stan 
2868 

BSA Glen Maes, 5l77198 xuAxi1Y13) 

Page 73 

: : : shrubbery .^. 

.-. Q Trees or tall shrubs. 

‘7’ .A. A Yes. 

;:: Q To block out the view. 

-r. 

._ A 

i~iconfusmg. 

Yes. That’s all it is. I’ll out trees down. Less 

‘-: Q 

j 3 i fair statement? 

To help ensure the privacy of this area. Is that 

iPI A Ri ht 

;:!I1 MS. W&TH: Can I ask a question? 

il.. L-I. MR. WtSENBERG: Yes. 

CT-,. ,I-_ BY MS. WIRTH: 

;:3: 0 This sort of rectangular area outside the study, 

; 14 1 you know what that is if an htn at all? 

iiS) A Yes. What ifis: i?s actually -what do you call 

I ii 1 it, a flower bed? 

i?Tj Q Okay. 

!:1! A A flower bed. That’s all it is. But it’s actually 

1 I9 1 connected and it goes - 

[20! BY MR. WISENBERG: 

I?ii Q Could you just write bed there? 

A Yes --. _ _ 

A” ;eFd? 

Q Just put flower bed 

a 

do 

Page 74 

[II A Oka We’ll putdown- 

[2: BY MS. &IRTH: 

i31 Q Okay. And you can leave the Oval Oftice complex 

r4:through the dining room door and go out through this area. 

15i A Yes. Yes. .-, 

!6! 0 Where the swimming pool is. 

171 A Yes. 

i”gi 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q And why don’t ou just put - you mentioned a 

[IO] athway. a walkway that the 2 

[ 11 jP fyou could just wnte that. 

ecret Service walked along. 

!I21 A Okay. It’s a pathway. 

ii:irefenin 

Q A athway. Okay. And when you were earlier 

;15lthe pat t% 

to Secre P Sennce making their rounds, that was 

way YOU were talkinq about. correct? 

out the study windows, can you 

e trees aown here? 

SS: Yes. You see all of that down there. 

ISg:kayit’s just - what it is the concrete 

12 5 j comes out, slopes down a little brt and you’ve gdt a grassway 

liEi A . Correct. - 

Iizithis to the 

MR. WlSENBERG: All right. Let me briefly show 

[I91 

i~~~seeallthewa tothes~ 1 ~~ 

Looking 

(221 THZ WITNE 

1231 A JUROR: 

I241 THE WITNE 

Page 75 

[ 1~ robably the size of this one here. It used to be a 

~21 R orseshoe it President Bush had it built. 

!3! $I R WISENBERG: 

[ 4 lcan look out the study 

The witness has testified that you 

[ 5 1 trees down here. 

door and see straight through these 

[El BY MR. WISENBERG: 

171 Q 

I R {wheels. 

You’ve drawn the trees to almost took like wagon 

A Yes. 

MR. WISENBERG: Okay. 

Cl11 A JUROR: Because they’re big trees. 

[l?] THE WITNESS: I don’t have my graphic tools with 

r131me. .--1 

(14; 

El51 @uEt&ENBERG: Okay. 

[I61 MS. WtRTH: Can I ask a question? 

i171 MR. WISENBERG: Yes. 

[:a] BY MS. WIRTH: 

Cl91 Q The Secret Service person who would walk this 

r2olpathway. is it just one post? A person at one post in 

:21!particular? 

:221 A Well, again, when I was talking before, we were 

[ 2 3 1 talking about posts and where the President’s at and we were 

(24 ltalkin 

[2s]Presr .% 

before the Oval office, you had this dome around the 

ent that if he goes in the back, that’s when we turn 

Page 76 

: : : around and le! them know When he shifts over to the d:t ?g 

;:: room or to the study. we let Secret Service know. 

: Now. when they shift, there’s times when they co 

[; : shift back out here Into the back area. but throughout the 

: 5: day. there would be 

I 6 i Park Service oorng t Iardeners back there which. again. the 

err thing - 

(7’ 

[ 9 j though. 

Q I want to focus on the Secret Service for a minute. 

[9: _ A Okay. 

!?:I Q The people who would walk, the Secret Service 

i :: 1 employees who would walk that path to do - 

[12: t Their checks and stuff. Right. 

::3! - their checks. Which posts would they come from? 

[i41 A Almost anywhere on the grounds. Again. tt’s hard 

[ 15 1 to say because ERT. which is emergency response team. the 

i16j uys look like a SWAT team, all black, they go through - you 

1171 % now, all throu h this all throu h this. 

[I91 BY )SIR. WtSENBERk: 

Q Let me stop you for a second. You said That 

1;:; path.” Were you referring to the closest pathway there? 

[Zi] A Yes. Two paths. 

[221 Q The closest. She was referring to the closest one. 

:23: A Right. 

[?41 BY MS. WlRTH: 

[251 Q Well, that’s the one you said they walk, right?? 

Page 77 

A Again, they come up this way and, again. they don’t 

They may come up through this pathway 

11) A It’s a combination. ERT. emergency response team. 

121 Possible a CAT team. And then UD, uniformed division Secret 

131 Service, and they may be PPD. 

Q And are these people who are stationed both inside 

:: i and outside of the White House? 

[?61 A Yes. 

I171 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

1181 

; 19 1 patio. 

Q _ You have drawn something just to the south of the 

r-701 

It’s i Irttle,- 

lt s another - what do you call it, floral bed. 

!21] Q Floral bed? 

[22] A That’s actual1 

[23!is another floral-this is all i 

what’s in front of this right here, 

oral bed,.right here. 

[241 Q Okay. Where 

r25ldrew a line through them, its x 

ou ongrnally drew trees and then 

oral beds. 

Page 78 

[II A Right. Floral beds. 

[?I Q How high is the plant life in the floral beds? 

[3! A 

r4;stairs - 

Down to the patio stair, I think there’s three 

one, two, three -so you’re talking no hi her than 

[s 1 this. would be max. and then you have the floral %, ds that 

[61 robabl just -the 

r,rRere. rK e b go all t Z 

‘re not qurte as deep as this table 

e way around the whole thing, the patio. 

[ai Are they higher than - 

[ 91 here as the he’ ht of something. Of w I 

ou’ve mentioned the table 

at? Of what? 

LlOl A 

0 

%gproximately two and a half feet in hei ht. 

(111 But what is that that’s height? The flora 9 bed? 

I121 A That would be the actual - yes. The concrete 

113ledging. Now. with the floral in there, you’d probably add 

[ 14 1 another 14 inches of flowers. 

!I51 Q 

I161 

!I71 

$ 

Okay. So roughly how man feet high? 

p a&otal, talking top of the ); owers now? 

[18! A To ‘9 al? The total might reach up to four foot. 

[191 Q 

r201 but north of the 

Okay. And that would be just south of the tatio 

athway the Secret Service walks correct. 

[211 A 

122 lit’s like a 

&at this is it’s little figurines right’here. 

rz3lfloral bed P, 

ardener, a little ‘irl gardener, then thus is 

ere, floral bed t a 

[24]thing. 

ere, going around this whole 

~251 0 Okay. And the floral bed would be between the 

Page 73 to Page 78 
ICA “.,^ Glen Maes, 517198 

_-. - ~. 

Page 79 

: : -Secret Service, the pathway that the Secret Service walks. 

.:. the Uosest pathwa 

:-z floral wd vou’ve ta r* ked about, correct? 

and the study window would be this 

-. 

:;: A Ri ht. 

,:. 

!G:that7 

MR. W Fs ENBERG: Okay. Does everybody understand 

._. A JUROR: 

i 3 : the window? 

The floral bed is between the pathway and 

‘j. 

.-. MR. WISENBERG: Correct. 

[::I A JUROR: .l_. :.-_ A JUROR: %%‘s around four feet tall? ..^ c-. THE WITNESS: Yes. And that’s the top of 

: : 3 : everything. 

:13: BY MR. WISENBERG: ..C. 0 Can you draw an arrow to floral bed from somewhere? 

; IG j Just write floral bed and indicate - 

,._. 

_. A There’s one here. Do 

‘i 2’ Q Yes. Just so - yes. r 

ou want another one here? 

E 1 i: outside the window, correct? 

hats the flower bed right 

17’. “--. A Ri ht. This is - 

;--. Q Al?right. And could you do one indicating over 

i 15 i there whez you%:, said is another one? 

,I’;’ _--. !74‘ MR. WISENBERG: Okay. We’re going to take a very 

iz5 f brief trip to the movies here and I’ll ask you to have a seat 

; :. recent - /^. 

.-. BY MR. WISENBERG: 

.-- ,> Q Okay. Just tell us. are these the trees you sate 

: 4 : you can sy from all the way - ri. 

._I_ 

15: h 

Yes from tne back side. Yes. 

Those are-thetrees. Where’s the floral bed? 

._. k Right here (~ndi~ting~. See them? 

;j. Q Okay. All right.. 

!:_‘ 

IlCi 

Aa VVJVZ. Can you go back more? 

(:I: A This is retty recent. You’ve got Buddy’s pillow 

v 12;there. There’s the ro in chair ri ht there. 

[i3: A JUROR: ’ ?ou said %at he would not be seen - 

Ii:: THE WITNESS: 

;;;; MR. WISENBERG: 

Have you got a stop on it or a pai;se? 

We don t have pause. 

What was the question? 

[i7: A JUROR: 

[ i 9 ; windows is mat area - 

It was showing that area between the :~o 

ou said that - 

THE WITNEZ!S: Yes you can’t really see it. The 

ifzjstereo equipment is right there. And for you to hide you’d 

rzllhave to - maybe do this (indicating) without anybody see&q 

ii; j you. If you’re~fuck to even do that. 

- _ 

MR. WI&NBERG: 

:?4: THE WITNESS: 

All right. 

This area here. The two angles y3u 

1~51 have, because if you went to the edge of the garden to look 

2869 

xMAxfl+‘u: 

Page 82 

Page 80 Page 83 

le, this is a working desk built 

book case out here an:: 

6’ -_ MR. WISENBERG: Pardon? -3 

, MS. WIRTH: Is that an exhibit? 

2‘ MR. WISENBERG: 

[ Gi to ask you some questions as it 

This is Exhibit ICGER. I’m going 

lays. i_” (The above-referen~gvideota~ was played for the 

i f f ! members of the rand -u I,^. ,*-. BY MIS! Wl&Fs;3ERG: 

‘12‘ Q This appears to be the 9:00 door going out of the 

: ;E : Oval Qffice. Is that correct? 

equipment back in here. 

about that sticks out. 

rs!And then on the other side of tha 9 door IS the actual pantry. 

[IO ;That’s how dose - about - ma be seven feet. 

[lli BY MR. WISENBERZ: 

[I?] Q The pantry’s in the dining room area, right? 

1131 A Yes. 

I :l j we*, just 

A JUROR: Are there areas in the study that 

[i 6 1 window? ? 

one throu h where one couldn’t be seen from the 

rom outsi -8 e the window, say maybe five or ten feet 

~ - 

;:5: A 

[:i: Q 

: ~7: that correct? 

il$. A 

:iCi Q 

lrr_:correct? 

izt; A 

:--_ Q 

iZj:cOrred? 

it’4: A 

.lt‘ _-4. Q 

COECXZt. 

Heading down the hallway, Hall 1 on your map. Is 

Correct. Looks good. 

This is a button collection on the left. Is that 

Correct. 

Going down Hall 1 and we’re facing the dining room, 

Correct. 

The study’s on the left. 

Page 81 

!1’ A Correct. 

._: Q I think we’re 

i 5 i And straight out. Are those 4 

oing to go into the study. Okay 

he trees you described or is 

iithat - 

3 A That% the back side - it‘s the floral bed I was 

i c j talking about. *-. Q All right. We can back up a little bit. 

i 2 j Unfo~unately, we don’t have a pause button that’s workin ‘;’ A See, you’ve got everythin 

i 5 j a desk, bookcase, this is the thing I m ta 

[,I tgalked about. ?iere*s 

in about, stereo 

: 1: equipment in there. Then another small tab e. 

.-. Q All right. Here’s what I want to do. I want you 

i;: to ooint out as much as YOU can. I know we’re qoins pretty 

1: Ifast. as we go in. Okay.< 

_ _. _ 

:. 

._ A Those are the two windows. This the drapery, the 

i’: ~ height of the two windows I was talking about. 

il_. - 

..= 

i*-. A” Took% I’m about this much - 

‘I?.. _.-. A JUROR: ’ The garden - i...,’ ,“_I THE WITNESS: 

,_. A JUROR: 

It goes out into the garden. 

No, we want to know about the shrubbery, 

isi: how tall thin s are out there. That’s it. 

:-i’ .--. h&. WISENB~RG: Okay. We’ll rewind it. 

114: THE WITNESS: See, what happened, about - I think 

! 1s: about a year ago, there was a tree out there, I don t know 

Page 79 to Page 84 

___.__._ 

rl7i,away. 

THE WITNESS: I didn’t 

t tti about here. Is there an area outside 9 

et what he was talking 

hese windows where - 

[?O! A JUROR: 

;;;; 

THE WITNESS Within the stu 

A JUROR: 

~23:outside the windows, 

[34!wouldn’t see - 

1251 THE WITNESS No. No matter where you’re at, IS 

Page 84 

[ 11 just full exposure. 

rz!directly - 

The windows are there and you’re looking 

131 MR. WISENBERG: 

14 : again. 

All right. Lets take a look 

THE WITNESS: Yes. Full exposure from the patio. 

izidirectly on the other side of that window and then on the 

r7lother side of that window is the patio that I drew. 

!8! MR. WISENBERG: Okay. 

r31 BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q And the trees that appear through that window. are 

1 :ylthese the trees that you’ve drawn south of the swimming pool? 

[l2i A 

0 

Go back to that again and see. 

The trees that you see or bushes, whatever you see 

ii:ithrough thatwindow. 

[15j A I can’t tell on that. 

[I61 

[171 A” ?llar$% ~%,f~r$$%here. Okay. 

1181 Q The trees beyond it, are those these trees here? 

119; A No. 

(201 0 No? 

A What it is, it’s a small tree here and a tree right 

I :i { here in this area here. That’s what you’re seeing. 

!?3j Q Well, the don’t look - 

t241 A I know. ? hey don’t look like they’re that close. 

r251 Q They don’t look small. How tall are they? 
XMAX(1515) 

2870 

BSA 

Page 85 

Glen Maes, WI98 

A TomeQ 

A 

They’re taller than you, aren’t they? 

Twenty feet. Twenty-four feet max. Compared to 

: some of the trees like - 

Q 

.; naht? 

And those are trees that you hadn’t drawn in, 

._ 

:. A Right. 

T Q 

A 

Can you mark those? 

.: 

..: Okay. I don’t know how you’re going to do that 

._..now. 

. . . _. MR. WISENBERG- Use a different colored pen. 

.:: Here’s a different colored pen. That will help. 

: *- MS. WIRTH: For the record, you’re marking in red 

.-: _-- .^. ,_i 

._ ~ 

.-- 

: now. 

THE WITNESS: 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

And I’ll put down - 

Q 

A 

How many are there of those trees? Do you know? 

Offhand, two or one. One or two. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Oka 

Y 

So the trees we’re seein 

i the windo; are;gt he trees that you drew at t I! 

directly through 

e far south. 

Q 

A 

They’re closer trees. 

I think ou can see them from there if you would 

ishow that again. BaJ up. 

.-- 

. . 

Page 86 

Q Okay. 

A That s just a bad an le. See, it’s - i think this 

: is it right here. There are trees in t ! e far back - es 

:The smaller trees in the far back are the back SI .dy etrees. . 

Q 

A 

So we are seeing the far back - 

Cl 

Yes, you are seeing - 

We’re also seeing some of the closer ones. 

t “0;~; little brt. 

A So you’re talking - 

-and the other ones back are proba ! 

robably the heiqht of this 

ly about 35 fee in height, 

::: -maybe. 

. : 

.--. BY MS. WIRTH: 

. . ,. 

.-=. Q 

‘. z- A 

But the closer ones ou said are 20 feet high? 

Well, I’m just saying r; 

j i i’ looks like maybe - what, ten feet, eight feet. 

y lookint back there, d 

___: .* BY MR. WISENBERG: 

. . :I 

f : i’ patio area 

Q Okay. Question for ou. 

can 

x 

ou see in that win dy ow? 

If you’re not in that 

.__I fhrouqh the window? Yes. I don’t know if you 

it i 1 more of the tap$ but rf you go into the dining room next and 

:r r. look from the dlmng room, you can look from an angle and 

: I 3 : look still into the atio. 

.-:- Q O!ay. The question is if you’re not in the patio 

f c i I area that you have drawn - 

have 

Page 87 

I. 

.-. A Okay. 

Q Okay. You’ve drawn a patio area that’s to the 

ii -south of both the dining room and the study. 

:;- .=l A Right. 

Q My question for you is if you’re not in the patio, 

i z ‘can you lozk inpeiFe study? ._: 

it- Q From where? 

A From the swimming poof. Because you can see the 

: f i : swimming pool from this bade window of the study and look 

: : I : Into the swtmming pool. 

. . -. 

.--. Q Could we just see it there on that angle? 

r- 7. 

.--. A No. 

Q 

?ithe study? 

How far away estimated is the swimming pool from 

r. ;- 

.--. A Estimated - the base of the swimming pool from the 

Page 88 

- .^ 2 g;avyksYou have done that. 

,-. 

:- .- G %B’_-All right. 

A JUROd( May I ask if there’s bulletproof glass on 

ii:all of those windows facing out of the study or facing out on 

:i:this balcon 1.. r ? 

HE WITNESS. You’re talking security stuff here 

:?’ BY MR. WISENBERG: : Q You would rather not answer that because that’s 

; f e jsecurity related? 

1::: A I’d rather not. It’s security related. I can’t 

: z ;get into detail what - I’d like to do it. but, you know, 

: 13 1 unless they say I have to, because you’re talking securi of 

;:4 !the President of the Umted States and I don’t want to ge ? 

: :s! into the alarm s stems and all that. 

[16! A JUf?OR: I’m thinking the President is exposed. 

II?], THE WITNESS: Okay. I could tell you this, there 

: 19 I IS glass and on all the glass, there s no area where it’s 

:: si Idark tinted or something like that where you couldn’t look. 

!?o !I think that’s what you’re trying to get at, you’re asking 

:X Ithat question. 

iz:’ A JUROR: No, I’m askin about bulletproof glass or 

rz?iany other substance that would be bu 9 letproof. 

:241 

“51 ,- 

THE WITNES$es. Are there other substances? 

A JUROR: 

Page 89 

g’ THE WITNESS: That - 

1” 

[3! 

A JUROR: It could be lastic. 

THE WITNESS: Yes. I.J o. It would have to be 

~4 Idealing with the glass or dealin with concrete or steel. If 

[ 5 1 that’s what you’re looking at. I 4 

[ 6 !for you. Ifs not? 

m answering the question 

[‘! A JUROR: That’s not answering. 

i@l BY MS. WIRTH: 

[9! Q Well, let me ask this. Do you even know whether 

[lo jthat glass is bullet resistent? Do you know the answer to 

j :: j that question? 

[l?: A I know all that stuff that goes on there. 

MR. WISENBERG: 

ii:jyou to have an answer. 

What’s your question again? I want 

ilS1 A JUROR: Is the President protected by some ktnd 

; I 6 1 of bulletproof glass In those windows, all of those windows 

: 17 1 that face out onto the 

9 

arden? And there are two windows 

I 19 I that face from the Ova Office out Onto the garden, too, 

L__I_.._._ : I Q I there nnt7 .I_.. 

[L’OJ THE WITNESS: 

izllbecause - 

That’s tough for me to answer 

MR. WISENBERG: 

tZ;because of securi 

You don’t want to answer that 

Y 

reasons. 

[74] 

“5; 

,- 

~~~~~s~~~~~~:- it$eoyrdhing to the security. 

ill THE WITNESS: I mean - 

:‘I A JUROR: Can I ask you a different question with 

t 51 regards to those windows? 

!41 THE W8TNES-S: Okav. 

L .T 

A JUROR: 

i :i hits that side of the buildino - 

In the.mc%ings, I don’t know how the sun 

~. 

171 THE WITNESS:” Very bright. 

A JUROR: 

it i very bright comin 

But when the sun hits and %‘s really 

i101 THE AGES.9 Yes ma’am. 

A JUROR: 

ii:ibrightness. 

People reblly can’t see in because of the 

I131 THE WITNESS: 

:14lThe sun hittin it - 

No, you can see directly in there 

I151 A JUROR: Not when the sun is that 

THE WITNESS: The sun comes throu 

t?ZJ A JUROR: Yes, when the sun hits the trees, yes, 

t 2 3 1 but when the sun is directly coming into those windows, 

g z 4 1 nobody can see in there. 

1251 THE WITNESS: I can look in there. 

Page 85 to Page 90 
Page 91 

2871 

Glen Maes, S/7196 

Page 94 

XMAX(lW6) 

A JUROR It’s too bright. 

THE WITNESS I can look in there Definite:j 

MR. WISENGERG: Let me ask you a questton Let me 

r:djthere is not. 

[is! Q All right. Now, why is it - I could be wrong. but 

:;~]why IS it that I’ve never seen - I will often see hotos of 

i 17 1 the President working at his desk at the Oval &f ice that 

r:slappear to be taken through a window and the ap ear to be 

[;gitaken through what weve called the 3330 win 4ow P o the Oval 

[ZOJOffice. 

[Zll A Correct 

[‘:I Q Why is it that I have never seen a picture of the 

r~3lPresident in the study. taken from the outside? Can you tell 

[241US? 

i?5] A Because of the privacy that 1 would imagine that 

-_ 

Page 92 

o to the back side to take photo shots. That’s 

that. but I’ve never seen press back 

ots. It would be like gorng. to your 

14; bathroom and taking a camera up there and dorn that. You 

[ sj know, the Oval office. that’s exposed to staff an B not even 

L 6 1 for the press. 

iijthin 

It depends on what the press shot - a lot of those 

;glsho ? 

s you see on TV are because of the angles of the press 

lookrng Into the Oval Office and because you’ve got a 

lolcamera here and you’re like -there’s the President. even 

:~~lthough the function was here, it’s like there’s the Prestdent 

j 1~ 1 and you’ve got a shot of him and the next thing you know. you - 

,,41 [31se It On T Now. it’s verv important that we get accurate 

i;;iinfonation about this patio>&. 

[I61 A Okay. 

Q The first thing I want to know is when the 

[ 5; i President is in the stud 

[ iglthe President goes to t K, 

for instance, you’ve told us when 

e study as an internal matter. as 

1201 

P 

art of your close working with the Secret Servrce ou will 

~~11 et them know that he has moved from the ,Oval 0 A! rce to the 

[z Istud I want to know when the President IS in the study who 

[?311s al Y owed in that patio area. 

i?4! A 

[-75jService 

Normalty. if he goes there, it would be Secret 

Page 93 

(11 0 Okay. 

A And if there was somebody else in there, such as 

ji jworkers doing the ardening or something like that, they’ll 

i4 1 be asked to leave We area. 

Q All ri 

I56ido they - you said t 

ht. 

4 

Now the Secret Service who are there, 

ey would be allowed to 

9 

o there. When 

[7 ]the President is in the study, in the sense tha we know, for 

( 8 1 instance,, about the various uniformed and non-unrform people 

[ slwho are in Walkway 2 and Walkway 1 and -and what not 

10 1 inside, when the President goes to the study, is there a 

111 Sea-et Service non 

A 

in the patio area? 

i?] g. No. 

13: Q Okay. So they’re allowed to, but they’re not there 

14 1 as a normal course. 

151 A No. And like I said, normal course, no. 

Q After they asked somebody to leave, any gardener 

176iwho might be there to leave. where would they then o to In 

lslthe normal course? Back to the post that you ve ma R ed? 

191 A Yes, possibly that post. They may be rt ht here. 

?olThey may be in this area here, come back here. So It .% epends 

2 1 ion how long he’ll be back there. A 

_:z lOftice is the Oval Dining Room. T t% 

ain. the secondary Oval 

at’s the secondary Oval 

[>3lOfkice. 

A ain not to get ou confused, but the President 

[zt{gets set up 3. or something s r ated on TV and they turn the Oval 

Page 91 to Page 96 

: Office -nto Warner Brothers Studros. the cameras and 

I everyt:,ng. and then he has to have a place to work. well, 

: I we’ll s-3 over to the dinin room and we’ll set up for him 

‘< nght there, so eve 

-. dinrng room. 

ii Q You mentioned that area aside from the patio from 

: :. which you say you could look into the study IS throu 

I. -angle. rs a particular area in the swrmmrng pool, IS t 2 

h an 

,-- at I , ,_:-cot-red? 

_. L--. A 

Q 

Yes. The northeast side of the swimming pool. 

. . -. Please draw with m 

i !: ‘where rt is where ou sa you can ook in. 

A JURdR: 

ly 

blue pen that angle and exactly 

[It: That’s the Secret Service post there? 

;:i: MR. WISENBERG: No. it’s not at the post. 

!I-: A JUROR: The SS post3 No? 

MR. WISENBERG: No. it’s a different area. 

I ii : Correct? You’re talking about - you were talking about a 

[: : : different area. 

[::: THE WITNESS: If the ‘re posted, it depends on 

[:::how- if they’re staying in the.sha A. if the{ move around, 

[: I : but what we re talkrng about right now - w at you wanted me 

iz;:tOdOi-5: MR. WISENBERG: Right. 

Page 95 

THE WITNESS: From the angle, it would be - 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q You said there was an angle around the pool - 

A Right here. :._ .:. 

A” 

where you could see in - 

Q 

Looking at an angle like this. 

i5: A 

Okay. And please mark that -- 

I’ll draw two lines - 

2 Q No, no. You don’t have to draw a line, just the 

: i ! i spot from where you say you can look at. 

; : 1: spot. Oka 

Make it a nice big 

You’ve marked it with a blue X, correct? ~.^ 

,-- 1 Ri ht. 

[If’ 0 

[ : 4 i their post? 

Okay. Now, can the Secret Service look in from 

<.: i--. A That I know of, not directly from the post. They 

[:r:can - but usually when they’re posted, it doesn’t mean - 

I:-:again - 

[:5: 0 They’re free to walk around. 

[:9 A 

[:::they’re - 

Exactly. That’s what it is. And then if 

say the President’s swimming, the famil is 

[ 2: -swimming or somethin like that they may post t K. IS area. 

i-1: 0 Ri ht &rt I’m not askin about that. 

r-3: A It depends on what fun c& Ion IS going on. 

[::: 0 Yes. 1 understand that. 

[:;- - A I don’t want to confuse you. 

.-_ 

._. 

.- 

.:- .-. 

..- 

_ 

Page 96 

i“ Q Now 

ii ‘patio area when the ‘J 

ou mentioned that if there’s anybod in the 

resident goes to the study they will L 

i: 1 asked to leave by Secret Service. Is that correct? 

‘<. A Rraht. 

Q mat if there’s somebod other than, say, the 

‘First Lady or members of the First Fame 7. yin the area that 

‘you’ve marked with an X, that you sa 

i angle which is ‘ust to the northeast o 

r ~IJ can see into that 

t e swimming pool? 

,’ A bell. it could be the guests of the President. 

;They could be out there utilizing the swimming pool. 

.--_ Q All riaht. 

A 

I ii i will you leave?” 

But tfiey’re not going to ask them, “Please, ma’am, 

Q 

Because they re guests of the President. 

All right. If it is - m 

I il t unless it is a guest of the Presiden 

question to you is 

[ I -c :the Presrdrt, Iz;(‘,Fke the example o 

ersonal guest of 

the gardener again. 

I:-’ 

ii2i Q 

1;;; area? 

Will the gardener also be asked to move from that 

In the area where you could get a view into the study? 

A Yes. They would be removed out of the area until 

I 1: -the President leaves. Lag. 

rz:- Q Oka 

i: 3 i Secret Service cou Y d stall go on their rounds. 

And, of course, you mentioned that the 

124‘ A Riaht. 

Q Arid that round would be - 

~-- 

OlCStarr 
BSA Glen Maes, WI98 xMAx-*-'l7) 

Page 97 Page 100 

.’ : 

.-. A 

:: ;to checkin 

Checking the doors, up here or at the dimng room, 

8 

the doors here I,n the cabana. checking - 

1. It’s almost like YOU being somewhere stealthily. It’s like 

Well, you said “here II-I the dining room.” You 

.I you’re there and you’re 6ke - 

.-. 

‘I Q 

1: ; would mean closer up, correct? 

Onay. I want to make sure I understand yo_ 

~5. 

I A I’m son-v. Yes. 

Q But e6erally the closest area is the 

;.jrhe rounds? ’ 

athway 

‘5 understand you :o ust say t at 

:; Remember, the d?Il IS vex important to us. DIG I 

ecret Service WIII be In 

[6: 

::1 ou’ve marked. Is t at correct? Where they would 1 e maklng 

191 A Yes. That would be the dosest. 

101 Q They would not while the President is in the study 

::!make their rounds right up at the window of the study, would 

12 I thev? 

13; A No. There’s no reason to go ti ht u there. 

14’ Q z E 

: 5! correct? 

Okay. They would not go nort oft e pathway, 

161 A 

17i Q 

Well, they could, but - 

:?i A 

While he s in the study? 

They may just come up here! just check the back 

: ?~corners. the corner area, just double che@.rt. and coming 

2 2 j back throu 

3 

h here. That’s easily a posstbll 

Zi] Okay. And that’s the area w %’ ere you’d -that’s 

:~lthe area where - you said the corner area. 

23; A Ri ht. 

243 0 Is ? hat the area - where you’ve written the word 

zjjflower bed and drawn area, is that right at the end of your 

: E:an area when the 

!-:see direct1 

restdent is in the study where they car 

Into the study7 ‘;‘ .i x Not all the time. No. 

.z- 5.. ‘1-i’ 2 yO:y. Well, will they ever? 

: :T 1 nght over here in a matter of seconds. 

115‘ Q I’m talkin about when he’s in the study, he s 

;IY~ oing into the study for 5. 20. 30 minutes, whatever. I 

2 

? 

.zo; now you don’t abays know how long he’ll be there. Wher-1 : he’s in the study. rf I understand you, you’ve testified no 

I_: 1 Secret Service person will walk right up to the study window 

:23:right outside here. Is that correct. 

:-‘I! A That’s - again, that’s their option, but what I *t 

:zS!seen and experienced, no. 

.--, 

-7,. 

_--_ 0 And’why is that? 

:--. A Because there mi ht be a function where he ?oves 

: 13: back, just to sort of - you know, Iifferent scenarios. I 

::q:mean. it could be almost anything. Where he goes back tc ?e 

::5:dining room, they worry about him comin through the bav 

:le:doorway here, the alarm could trip. they 7 Idefinitely be 

i .-, 1 I arrow? 

Page 98 Page 101 

[?I Cl. All right. And when he is in the study, do the? 

;z J jty to give him the same kind of privacy that the people 

:3! Inside the White House give him? The Secret Service peo=le 

! 4 I and the stewards inside the White House give him when k s In 

! 5 I the study. 

[i; A In the study? 

[7] Q Do the people outside attempt to give him the same 

! 3: level of privacy? 

!9! A Well, they have no choice because the staff 

13;technically aren’t allowed back there. 11. 

--_ Q Okay. 1-1 

--, A 

Q 

If you’re looking at that case. Now, a 

So the answer IS yes, they do attemp 9 

ain, if - 

. -1 I 3 ; 

14: him the same level of orivacv. 

to pros-de 

A Correct. 

A JUROR: Where’s the blue X? 

MR. WISENBERG: 

A JUROR: 

The blue X is right here. 

t see it. I see it. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

::3: Q And the red was the other trees you had missed the 

: : .i 1 first time. correct? 

.-c> 

.->. A Ri ht. 

-:e! MR. WaENBERG: 

A JUROR: 

All right. 

I. -> 

.- Now, where’s the Secret Service? Where 

: 13 ; do they walk? 

:19j MR. WISENBERG: 

- n i correct? 

The closest pathway is right here, 

,__ ,__.. --.. 

,I. ~ 

.c*1 A JUROR: Now, where would they go? I-_) .--I BY MR. WISENBERG: 1-1~ ,-a/ 0 The closest is right here, correct? The pathway - 

._.~ A 

: 5 : domg. 

Where are they going? It depends on what he’s 

He may stop right here - 

Page 99 

:;. A JUROR: 

: I : study. 

We’re just talking when he’s in the 

‘3’ THE WITNESS: The 

: The reason why the would even K’ 

may stop ri ht here and check. 

s if! In there, %ecause the 

j ; : President may go to the swimming pool. he may go to the 

6 ; private area, so they’re ready on response to move. As soon 

: I as that dmr is opened to the dinin 

3 1 res 

P 

ond to it. That’s the reason w i! 

room, they’re ready to 

9 ! tha 

y they would shift in 

area. 

.>! BY MR. WISENBERG: / . , :. .-a Q Could ou come over here. please? Okay. And talk 

. 

.- 1 

. 

: ; as loud asp &tit.8his is the blue X, correct? 

;- 

Q This is the closest athway. where I’m pointing. . 

t i The red is the trees you had left o R 

6 : correct? 

the first time, 

_ 7: A Correct. 

I . 

. 0: Q And then ou’ve testified that they will not - 

. 

- ijwhen the President is in r he study, they will not walk tight 

.- ‘r, I in front of this study window, is that correct? The Secret 

:- 81; Service. Sorry. They will not walk right in front of the L- 

[: ‘2 1 study window here. 

,^ 

.- ‘3: A They’re not standing right in front of it. No. 

.^ 

.- ‘4 ;They will usually be over by the stairway, the patio, so they 

;: 51can see directly in there, or it will be the angle down here. 

OlCStarr 

2872 

_ 

i 2 4 i at the time. 

IZ5! A JUROR: No, in the study. He’s in the study 

1 

15; A They 16. Yei. 

161 Q Oka And again - 

:7j Does an \ ody else want to see? 

:5?: A JURO&: So the conclusion then is that when *e’s 

19: in the study, the Secret Service men can look in while a 

zo~dis~ance away but they’? got ahvays there, that’s not their 

2 1 I policy? They could see In tf they go by! but they don’t 

22 1 ahvays do that. Is that what we re heanng? 

23i THE WITNESS: Aaain. it depends on what is gwg on 

[: 1 He’s sittin down or he’s workin in the study. 

[?I B HE WITNESS: 

(31 A JUROR: 

O&y. 

14’ THE WITNESS: Theyh”,o,“?~~heye”:“d& time they want. 

Page 102 

i 12 j at their post, which you’ve marked. 

[131 A Well, 1’11 make the announcement to them, the 

:slYes. 

. 

!6! BY MR. WISENBERG: 

[i] Q Okay. The question was can. Now, the queszon is 

I 8 I yhat is the normal placement of the Secret Service? He s 

[ 9 1 sntln 

! 1 o I outs1 -a 

there in the study. The Secret Service who are 

e I think you’ve - correct me if I’m wron you’ve 

i I 1 Itestified that tvoicallv when he is in the study t z* ey WIII be 

i20 j Walkway 3. 

i211 There’s times where outside of the Oval Office 

122 jwhere one of their post areas are was ‘ust called the 

r231collonade, the West Wang collonade. A e has the option 

[24 It0 come and swing around here or staying in that area 

::5ldependlng on if he’s just walking back, depending on it 

..-. -- 

Paae 97 to Paae 102 
2873 

RPI __. Glen Maes, 517198 

. ..““.. .-._ I I _ 

Page 103 

: 

.- 

. 

: 

.: 

.:. - 

. . 

,-_. A Again, I’- 

:.- ,A-. Q Or at least one at the post typically. ^ A I don’t - you want a finalized answer here and I 

’ f i ’ can’t give that to ou. 

‘I; Cl v\yell. no, I want a typical. What I want is based 

1 i E : on your knowled e - 

‘. _-- ; A 

Q 

&at I’ve seen happen? 

..- Yes. Or what you ve seen and what you know 

’ : i. You’ve been there how many years? :_ 

L..:-. A Eleven ears: 

,_-. Cl Okay. K nd you’ve testified to us that you know the 

:‘I ‘operations well, you’re in the inner perimeter. Is that 

j z f I correct? You even work with the Secret Service. 

. ..-. A Directly. Yes. 

:-;: 0 Qka So what would the ty ical situation be, the 

iz: : President’s moved tv o the study, he’s going P o be there 15. 30 

Page 104 

minutes, you’ve already told us that any gardener of any 

if : kind, any service person working in that patio area IS going 

:r to be told to leave. 

, : ~3 A Asked to leave the area. Yes. 

_z. Q Okay. And any such person, even in this blue X 

: z : area you marked, they’re going to be told to leave, correct? 

_- A Correct. 

-: 

: 

Q Unless they;re a guest - 

A Unless the!{&: fim?kent, 

::. 0 - a guest c 

. . 

_-- A Utilizrn the swimmin poof. I. _. __ Q Rioht. GilI you typica 9 ly have a person at the 

:. _z - ’ Secret Service p&t. a Seciet Servil x person? 

:. .: .**. . . . .._. ..-. 

. . =. 

.-- 

$ Nckt$l the time No. 

“Z‘ .--_ A __ 

‘At right. Not all the time, but typically? 

~~.-~.wouldnit sa typically either: 

,__. ? .* I.: .*-. A” t? 

ttr@;; You wtl have them making their rour 

_- :- utside. .-. ,^-. 2 T9 

. they would go on this 

hey could go. 

Or they’re typically going to walk - well, 

___~_______-- -.~-~ 

Page 105 

.- 

._. 

A To the door. 

0 To the door of the dining room. Okay. .- 

A Check the dinin! roomdoor. I:’ 

.- 

. Q All right. Check he drntng room door. Any other 

i; : areas they will typically walk when he’s In the study as 1 

: E. have described on the outside? 

.-. A That’s -that’s it. 

ir- Q Okay. And the flower bed that you have drawn 

: +: goes - that’s up against the wall of the study or the wmdow 

” _- - -of the study goes ah the way over to the dining room, almOSt 

I : : up to the diniit room door correct? 

. . . 

_-- A %es. Passes the window on that too 

_. 

: Q And the door goes right up to the’ door that you say 

j:; they wit1 check, correct? _ _ 

‘-: _- A 

Q 

Ri ht. That’s the pathway. Yes. 

- ; O!a 

: f’ -arrows down from t z 

So this is a pathwa 

1 ” 

where you’ve drawn 

e door leading out of he dimng room into 

. I- = ’ the patio area 

‘. - ,--. A Correct. 

.__. 0 You’re sayin 

R 

ii I -door perha s agt;i;ck It w 8, 

Secret Service will walk up to that 

tie he s In the study. .^-- .I_. .^_.. 

.--_ MR. WtSENBERG: Okay. 

‘-2 A JUROR: 

!fi’through the pathway? 

And then they’ll walk to the pathway, 

XMAX(W11) 

Page 106 

THE WITNESS: Agarn, if he did Pa!. the thing - 

.f ‘we would know. because there’s alarm systems and all that 

: ::You could ima 

*. if he did break 9 

rne a iot of alarm systems around the area. so 

he alarm, that’s part of the rntruston 

!;‘factor. Someone jumps the fence, they would know that the 

: E: back door IS open. 

._: A JUROR: No. I’m savina the Secret Service, when 

f 5 i he checks the drning room door, doe<he walk that pathway in 

; s; front of the stud to et there? 

;;3: THE &ITl!ESS: Yes. Again, he has the two options 

; 11: coming from here, walking along the 

;:z;that pathw;yj 

Y 

P 

001. but he always goes 

I: ;- 

.--. 

gQRThats a drrect pa h. 

So he walks that pathway - 

1:;: THE WITNESS: That same path. RI ht. 

.. i’ L&-, A JUROR: 

.. 6’ .--J 

- arid;!;;;; g;;;he stu&. 

THE WITNESS: /._. 

- MR. WtSENBERG: 

i~ajagain. The pathwa is - 

Well, let’s look at the pathway 

:T1‘ A JUROf$ Is that the pathway that runs parallel to 

t?: i the windows of the stud ? 

iZl: MR. WlSENBiRG: 

A JUROR: Yes. 

This pathway here. 

I??: 

i13] MR. WtSENBERG: Okay. 

:I?41 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

i?5] Q Your testimony is they’re going to go up this 

-- -- . - --~~ --.- 

Page 107 

: 11 pathway to the door. ,?,: 

_-, A Correct. 

:3; Q To the dining room. 

I41 A Correct. 

151 Q 

A 

He’s going to walk on this pathway. 

:E_i 

I: ; hit there and 

To go there or leave there and then this way and 

o back or back here - 

:?! A JbROR: 

: 9 I windows. 

Instead of walking in front of the 

i:O: THE WITNESS: ~.TI *--I A JUROR: They’%!!& ste around 10 15 20 feet. .i? :__! THE WITNESS: And I’ll loo R at them -‘weli. you 

::3!saw the windows - 

::ij BY MR. WISENBERG: 

i-i: Q You’ve got to answer the question. The question 

; t 6: was when they’re on thrs pathway and ‘ust for ~~~~tion, 

[ :: I is that what you mean by walking past \ he window? 

iiS] A Yes. 

;191 0 They’re about how many feet from that window? The 

!:ciSecret Service. 

,-. . i--i A From here to there? ,_I- ,--I Q 

A 

The pathwa 

[?;I About from F: 

to the window to the study. 

ere to the door, which I would say 

; 2 4 I about 25 friu;p $xrmately 

i-5; B That s as close as they’ll get? 

,. 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, because the trees will be right 

ii { here, the patio is ri ht here and then the - 

A JUROR: 

;: i to the stud windows. 

Okay. But that’s as close as they’ll get 

ix=,; i” HE WlTNESS: Unless thev oo out to the door and 

i 6icheck the door which would be right up to it. 

‘71 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

i3; Q That% the dining room door youLe mentioned? 

:s] A 

:131 Q 

Dining room door. Yes. 

And at least part of the pathway is behind the red 

~11 Itrees you’ve marked. 

112 1 matied with them red. 

They’re not really red, but you’ve 

A Yes. They’re directly behind the trees. Because 

!::ivou+re actuallv walkina through the two trees right here, 

ilsigoing throu hit. - - 

1161 hlfh WISENSERG: 

: I 7 lauestions of the witness? 

Okay. Okay. Are there any other 

;13j ’ 

:19j co. R response$ WISENB RG: 

!~CI jgoing to ask 

I’m going to ask the witness, I’m 

M8. WtRTH. 

ou to step outside for just a moment, 

I2:J 

(“2 1 bottom part of that with 

Before 

Y 

ou do, can you inrtial the 

our initia s? 

1-31 MR. WISENBERG: We need you to initial the bottom 

:24jpart. 

:25; MS. WlRTH: Thank you. 

OlCStan 
2874 

BSA 

Page 109 

Glen Maes, WI98 

I. 

ii;said? 

THE WITNESS: And you want me to step out, you 

‘3: 

js1 

MS. WIRTH: Yes. 

MR. WISENBERG: Yes. You could step outside and 

:sjyou might not have to come back. 

;i: 

. , 

& 

he witness was excused.) 

._- hereupon, at 4:26 p.m., the takin 

; D ; in the presence of a full quorum of the Grand 3 

of testimony 

!s;concluded.) 

ury was 

[IO! ..a*. 

[Iii 

[IZj 

;13: 

[:3j 

[i5! 

iTi> .A,. 

('7' Lil?i 

'7;) 

11;:: 

-7 1 ILL, 

[22! 

(233 

[241 

[25; 

XMAX(19119) 

olcstarr 

_. .____~ 

Page 109 to Page 109 
2875 

l 

‘3 

l ! 

d :r 

. i :_. * i.i tit: w ; !y 

c. .._ 
2876 
~why, mqu,t 11. 1998 

2877 

Inrc: Graadhry~ceedings 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

IO 

11 

L? 

13 

14 

IS 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

Page 2 

PROCEEDINGS 

whaeupon. 

CHERYL DENISE MILLS 

wascalledasawitnessand,afterhavingbeenfirstduly 

~rnby~Fo~of~~J~,~~~~ 

test&xl as follows: 

EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BENNEIT 

Q Good - it’s still moming, just barely, Ms. Mills. 

Would you state your fidl Cliff, please? 

A ~ynameisf%zyif)eniseMills. 

Q And you’n appearing today pursuant to a subpoena. 

listllatU3lRXt? 

A lam. 

Q Ma’am,youbavebecasubpaenzdtoappearasa 

WitlX%onlyiathkmattCX. 

A Ihat% been my tmdastsadiag. 

Q Ycs,ma’am. Andyouhavearighttonfux?to 

rtmswganyquestionrhetturhful.answa towbichmi&ttend 

to kskinak you personally. And you undastand that? 

A Ido. 

Q Youhavearigbttu-ifyoudoanswex questioas 

anythingyousaycouldbeusedagainstyouinafutnm 

24 procewfin& eitkr by this grand jury or by a petit jury. 

2s Doyouunderstaadthat? 

i 

1 A IQ. 

2 Q Youhave righttoanattamey. Doycubavean 

3 attomeyappcaringonyourbchal.ftoday? 

4 A &iIhaveanattomeywithmeorapp=ing? 

5 Q Yes. Appcaringoutsidctbegnmdjtnyroom. 

6 A Ihaveanattomeywithmc. Yea. 

7 Q Andwhoisthat? 

8 A His name is William Murphy of Murphy & Schafkr. 

9 It’s a law fum in Baltimore. 

0 Q Allright Ifat8nyti1~~youncedtokavcto 

1 consultwithyourattomey,justs@altousaadyouwilIbe 

2 pemli~bdotbat” 

3 A lhankyousomuch. 

4 Q You’ve md Mr. Appersoa? 

5 A IbaVein&cd. 

6 Q ~.Ap~~~~~rn~of~ 

7 questioningtoday. 

8 A okay. -bank you. 

9 BY MR APPERSON: 

0 Q Ms.Mik,letmgetyoutostateyouraamfcc 

lthelecord 

2 A hfynarmisclhaylDeniseMills. 

.3 Q Okay. Ifatanytimeyounceclaglassofwata, 

:4 we’ve got cups. Would you like some befcrrc we start? 

:S A No, I’m fme. ‘I%ankyouvuymucb. 

J Q 

2 A 

3 Q 

4 A 

5 Q 

6 A 

Page4 

Okay. Just holler. And how am you anployed? 

I my work at tbc White House. 

Okay. And what position do you have tbezc? 

DeputyCuuaszltotbePnTsidult. 

Okay. ~~Wl~~YOU~~~~ti~? 

I’vebaenintbstp&tionsincethcendofJanuary 

7 or the begin&g of Fkbrllary of 1997. 

8 Q okay. Andpriortothat,youwc=a!%=k@ 

9 CQtxlsel in tk CQunsel’s Office. Is that camd? 

0 A Tbat’scomst. 

I Q Andwbatpeciodoftimcwasthat? 

2 A I’ve b&n tbaz since January 20.1993. 

.3 Q Okay. Essmtially8ndinanutsbtll,whatareyour 

.4 duties as Deputy White House CounseI? 

s A ~skqxrvktkoffioftbcwhitcHaust~ 

~6 Q Okay. hdwbatQthcsqxvkxyfurnctions 

;1 entail? 

18 A Dealingwithimdaddressing~tbcdiffaut 

I)iversified Reqmrting Servicca Inc. (202) 296-2929 

19 issuestbatcomc,beforeourofflctand&stingour 

!0 associatccoLK&sastbeybandletbosemat%ersaswell. 

Cl Q Okay. Andyouworkdimctiytmdahk.b.f?,wfio 

!2 iscouxlszltothePmsi&nt? Istbatcorrect? 

!3 A Ido. 

24 Q YouknowBtuceLindsey? 

Ls A Ycs,Ido. 

Pagel-Page4 
2878 

n n: Grand Jury proccledings MUlti-Page” August l&l998 1 

Ptlgt?! 

1 Q Allright. HcalsobasthetitlcDeputyGxmaelto 

2 the President, wlnxt? 

3 A Yes,hedoes. 

4 Q Soareyouallco-equals,sotospeak,ordoyou 

5 have diffenM ass@ments? 

6 A Or&sotospeak. 

7 Q Okay. Tellusasbcstyoucanwhatthe-hawyou 

8 di%w.ttiate what each of you do as deputies. 

9 A we~Iwasactudlydif%ra~withrespcct 

o totitle. BruozLindseyisAssktanttotbeFresidentand 

1 DeputycounseL. IamDeputyAkstanttotbeResidentand 

2 Dq.Wtyc5unsel. 

3 Q Okay. Without respect to tit& as far as the 

4 nqonsibilities of azS+nxnts within the CoucLsel’s office, 

5 how do you distinguish that between the two of you? 

6 A IthinkasageneralmatterBxucedealswithmore 

7 policy issues. He deals with securities, litigation, 

8 products liability. A lot more of our policy litigation 

9 matters that come before tbe courxl’s off&x. And I 

‘0 deal with the other issues that come befa: the counsel’s 

.I office. 

.2 Q Okay. ~X~~y~~ti~~J~~ 

.3 17th,thedaytheprtsidRJtgavehisdepositionintfiepauLa 

:4 Jonescaqdoyourecalltbatday? 

5 A Gentiy. 

Page6 

I Q Okay. That was a Saturday, correct? 

2 A wt. 

3 Q WaeyouworkingattheWMeHouseonthatday? 

4 A yes. 

5 Q Allright. Now,itismywthatBrua 

5 ~~~p~~~~~t~~~ti~. Is&at 

7 wrrect? 

8 A tit’s my understanding. 

9 Q Had you met with Mr. Lindsey prior to his depamxe 

0 with the President for the deposition that day? 

1 A ~o,I~~~I~t~~~h~~Ie~ 

2 Q Okay. Soisitfairtosaythatyoudidnotmcet 

3 with the President that day either? Is that wmxt? 

4 A That’s wrrect. 

5 Q &fore the deposition. 

6 A ?hat’sconuZ. 

7 Q AlI right. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. 

8 Lindsey having talked to tbc l’ksitit before, during or 

9 after the deposition? 

10 A Well, Mr. Lindsey wasn’t participatixq at the 

tl deposition. ~~~~~~d~~w~of~ 

L2 &position. 

13 Q Okay. But do you know whet&z or not h4r. Lindsey 

14 had discU%ims with the Resident prior to the deposition 

15 about the &position? 

Page; 

1 A (klhcdayoftbcdcposith? 

2 Q Yes. 

3 A IQlo’t 

4 Q Okay. Doyouhowwhahunnot~.Lindseyspokc 

5 with tbz Rsidmt and tk R&dent’s lawyas during the 

6 brcaksatbcdcpositionatthckwfnm? 

7 A kismyandastaadiagtbatkdid. 

8 Q okay. Wazyouinbzkpbmecontactwirb 

9 Mr.Li&cyimytimedmiqtbzdaywbczlhcums~tdlc 

0 lawofIicgdhqttlcdcposition? 

1 A IbdkvcIspokcrokimacoupkoftimcs. Ya. 

2 Q Okay. Wbat~tkoccasionsforyoursp&ingto 

3 t&.Lindsqovrrtiuc8ttk~i&msit? 

4 A Wdl,ImightpagehimbaxnueIbevcanissuctbat 

5 I’mw&ngoaorsomcthioglikcthatandIknowthathc’s 

6 notdoinganytbingatkastintbctimepaiodwbacbc’snot 

7 ac~-~~~i~t’s~~I~t~ 

8 consuhngwithhimonanissucascdn&hgtbatI’mwohing 

9 Cm. 

0 Q okay. Howmanytimcsdonxallduhgthe 

1 dqosidoadidyourpcalrwitbMr.Lindq? 

2 A I&&know. ~rn~~b~~~a 

3coupk 

4 Q Okay. Andwhatdoyouxccalltksubjcctmattuof 

5 tboscdiscUhsasiK@? 

Page0 

1 A WdLinoncdiscussionImcaUtbesubjcctmattu 

2 bcingtkDnldgcRcportor!ulm&hgoftktDa~aacws 

3 rcporttktwasontk-tktcamcuponmycanputixwitb 

4 rc?prctmastoryxgardhganin~andmalkgai 

5 &&nskipktwwkzaudtkPrc&mt Apartfromth~ 

6 I~~~~~~~~~k~~~ 

7 advicccrwidrrcs~totkmattcrstbattbeywzewo&iag 

8 on,soitwouldkprivikgai. 

9 Q Okay. Lcr’stalkabouttkI)ndgcRqor& Didyou 

0 callMr.LindseyasarcsultofbaviagsantkDrudgcRqort 

1 on~~p~? 

2 A Ibcikv~so. 

3 Q Allrigbt. Andwbydidyoucallhimcinxmhgtbe 

4* 

5 A Ijust-Imcaa,asapracticalmatw, 

6 Mr*Liudscyis somamcwilhwhnIba~acbsaxchtimship, 

7 sowitbxcSpccttomaayoftkmattastktIwoficaaa 

8 issucstbatilrisGbc’salikdypcxsollwitbwkmIwould 

9 discusstkm. 

!O Q Ohy. hdtkDrudgcRepaqamIcu~~~,kd 

!I idc&icd~Lcwinrky? 

!2 A IactUydoa’tknowifitactuaI@idattifkdbu 

!3 Mmc. Ibdiewiti<ifialaahtun. Idon’tkkvcit 

!4 identihi&r~~~~. Ibcliwcsubscqumtly~wl;s 

Y awtbuLhd&Rqx8ttbatactuallyhmTljwtkffuualc+ml 

Page5-Page8 

Diversified Report& Services, Inc. (2021296-2929 
2879 

II re: Grand Jury ~-dings Mull P8gP August 11,1991 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

0 

I 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

0 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

PWS 

probablybecau5eDnldgewas!Bmsitivctotkfacttktkks 

legal Iiabilitics. So I actually don’t think it mdltiootd 

krname. 

Q okay. But you deiidy had an undastgnding that 

~~~~~~~~~~d~~~~ 

PreSidcnt’sdepositiontktwasongoingatthattimc, 

CotlFXt? 

A Not actually. 

Q Youdidnot? 

ACOKd. 

Q Okay. Wby,tkn,didyoucallMr.Lihcyattbc 

siteoftkdepositiontodiscusstheDnadgeRepottifitwas 

not - 

A Ac~y,I~~j~~kc~. fu!~diy 

pagch 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

okay. Iapptiatethat. Thank you. 

No, that’s okay. 

And k returned your page? 

Yes. 

called you back? 

Yes. 

okay. 

Typically, k caUs me back. Someth~ k dccsn’t. 

Au right. 

Atthetime,Ipagedhimtoreadittohim. I 

Page 10 

1 mea&thematr:anumkrofdiffcreotncwsstories,Drudge 

2 Reportsuxneupevexyday,an~asapracticalmatter,if 

3 k’s not around or in tk office, 1% teU him wkt 

4 ~~t~~~~~~~~~~go~ 

J on. flzatowIpagedhtpabout,butIdidn’trccaykhavca 

6 famihity with Monica hwinsky to appnzciate that that 

7 wouIdlikelykamatt.erthatwaskiogdiscussal 

8 Q Okay. ~y~~y~u~d~k~af~~~ 

9 with Monica L&n&y and you indicated that you did not 

o nxaUifbernamewasmentionedintbere,didyoumakea 

I conaedioninyourownmindorpossibleunmcctionbetwea, 

2 M&.hwinsky,tktskmightkthtintcmrefaarccdintk 

3 DrudgcRepoit? 

4 A No. 

5 Q Okay. Had you kard of Monica Lminsky before this 

6 Dn&~Report? 

7 A No. 

8 Q ~y~~~~~s~~V~J~ 

9 conmning Monica Lewin&y before tk 17th of Janui+ 

0 A No, I don’t kIieve so. 

1 Q Do you meall any dixmssioos with Vernon Jordan 

2 conaxninghiscffortstosecuxajobforMonicaLewi&y7 

3 A I~~~~ti~~tM~y,I 

4 klieve.,VernoncametotkWhiteHousethatdayandI 

5 klieveonthat&ykindicatedtktkhadtriedtofuda 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

0 

1 

.2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

!I 

I? 

3 

i4 

5 

Page 

jdbforba. hlIll&mQxwasPlrotbaIXudgeRqKxt 

asandSng&stkdprunptaddiseussiooofkrbyMua 

Ibckvcitmightbn~-itmightbavebarna 

rcslmKGIjustmhfidlydm’tdwhatwasonthcDnld8c 

RcportthalattbatpoiIl: 

Q Ckay. Sowbatisyourmdkdonoftkfm 

timcthetyoubSudrllcnamch&.mica~ 

A Itwouldhavcbanprobablysomctimcovmtk 

coursSofthatvmkald. Tbat’rnottosay-x*vewo&cdin 

tb: white IzousG obviously, siace Jaauary of 1993. I might 

ktWcmctk. Idkxl’tKc8llbWiDg8noccashlwhcrcm 

ileactal. 

Q Okay. Butymrbcstmdkdioaistkfirsttim: 

youkarditwas&tbcPm3icht’s&pasitim? 

A Yes. 

Q Andontksamday-I’msorry,goabd. 

A Idoa’tknowifit’simtbcsamednyawt I 

knowtbntthtrcwasapuiodoftixmwbcmTimMagmiacwas 

tvyingtoworkonastorythatNcwmuk w8sworkingoaandhl 

&at~xkwvtbcymn:kxikjngfoaaotay-orthat 

oocoft&Timch@azknpor(m,IbcLlcvc-tbattbcy 

wamwarkiqoomctmymlataitobhicaLNJinsky,butI 

didn’t have an applC&tion of all of tk diffarnt 

~~~~~~~t~~t~~~~~l 

thftttkvwoddbciMuirionastowith~ttclhis 

1: 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

0 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

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7 

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9 

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deposition. 

Q Okay. WknMr.LindseyWmnedyourpageduring 

tkdeposition,tkdayoftk&positionA whichtimc? 

Q I’msorry. lkfifsttirxwknyoureadtbeDrudge 

A Okay. hdm-hnmk. 

Q ?%atyoufccallnotaeassarilybaviqgide&ied 

Ms.L&nskyby&ne. 

A Right. Idon’tklieve.it did. Right. 

Q Okay. AadtktyoupagedMr.Lindsey,kizhmxd 

Yaw page. 

A Right. 

Q ~~~~~~~~~~7 

A IjustreadhimtkDmdgeRepott. Ijusttoldhim 

tkttkDrudgeReportwWmjWtingtbefoIlowing. 

Q Okay. hdtcIIuswhyyoufelttknudto& 

that. 

A Iactx&ydo&knowtkttktwastko&ynxon 

wilyIpagaihim$quitecaQdidly. Idon’tkDowwktelseI 

wasworkingon. Idorememberthatthat’soneoftkthiugs 

tktItalkedtohimaboutattktpoint. 

Q Okay. ~dy~k~~~~~~ 

ReportwithhimaRayouKadhimtkpatiDartparts? or 

in its entirety, whatever you nzollcct. 

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A Youknow,w,notthatIrecall. Imcan,I’msuxe 

we must have said something, but I don’t remember what it 

would have been. 

Q Okay. DoyourecallwbctixxMr.Lin~madea 

connectionbermcntbcinfonnationinthcDN4gcI+orttd 

the Pltzsident’s deposition? 

A Idon’t~himsayioganythiogtbatpnzmpted 

that. 

Q okay 

A Ib~ked~tlthi~thisa~Othtm~~~t~ryd~ 

f~~~d~a~of~~~~~d 

eventually arise around the pRsi&nt’s deposition, so I just 

expectcdthattherewouldbeaseriesofstoricsLnwhich 

tberewouldbesto+sindicatingthatthatwexediff~t 

womenwhomtbePresidenteitberhadtestifitiaboutor 

~y~a~~p~~~I~~‘t~of~ 

a$indepcndmtofwbatIanticipatedtobeseWaloews 

storia that eventually would arise around thstmnt, 

Q Okay. I‘m sony, I just want to clarify. I 

~~tyousaidbefonthatyoudidnotmatreacormection 

between&eDrudgeReport,havinganyconxctioaorpossibk 

impact on the President’s deposition. 

A wt. 

Q AndIwantyoutocorrectmeifI’mwnmg,nowI’m 

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Report could impact or a@ct the Resident’s deposition. 

A No. Actually, it all relates to tk vcmcity that 

youattachtotbcDrudge.R.eport. Asapracticalmatter,I 

trratthcDn3dgeRcport-it’saf3cninaccura@soitis 

like Star MagaWe for mc or the National Inquiru. 

nlemsrelotsofstoriesthatgetprintedinthem 

and sometimes there are events and things that prompt stories 

to get printed_ If the President’s going to testify, there 

a~ Iots of things that people might print, but obey anm’t 

uxaxuily going to be acculately &-locting what’s going to 

tmnspirewithrespactto6isdeposition. 

Sofrommyperspective,IactuaUytreatedthisa 

littlebitlike,oh,yeah,andhexe’sanothersUxy,as 

~~~~~~~~y~~~~a 

stoIy that related to his deposition. Quitc.of@ tbcy’rc 

inaccurate. 

Q Allright ~itfairto&uacte&itthattbc 

~~ty~~~~~~.~~~a~dof 

beads up, I want you to know that’s out hen? 

A Sure. Imean-that’sonewaytoc~it. 

!l Asapracticalmattef,Itallctobimcverydaysboutthenews 

2 andthingstbataregoingon,sothatwouldbesxMhiogthat 

3 Iw~d~~j~~~~~q~~~~ 

4 raixdorottkzrthingsliketbat. 

5 Q Okay. Youindicatedthatthereportwascmtbe 

August 11,1998 9 

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computrr. rtt.t~~tyargct~~tkc435pkt=d 

~~~~~,~~~~~H~~S 

offihro@outthcdayonanygi~day. lsthlltcxXrczt7 

A Yes. 

Q Allrigk Doyounxallwlstbuanyotkr~crm 

sl&stbatcamctblltdayyoulawfitlopageM.L~O 

sbaxcwitbbim? 

A Iwanttomahmxetktl’mckar. Idon’tknow 

tbstIaclusUypsgcdbimbccauscofthi.sIcpolt~us:I 

wasintkolT%wukhgaoanumbuofthiagsandsotkn 

an:63llsrtllingstbatImi&tkvcpllgcldhimwithrapatto, 

butIknowIwarldbavctoldhim,‘Vh,youshouHlwtwX,Y 

or Z.” 

&d,uIsithxrighsnow,no,Idon’t,butI 

can’t coofidalt@ ti you that xbac might not hiivc btm 

~~~tI~~~~~tI~t~~~ 

alsopulkdotbuthingstktwcrcintbcpapastktk 

hadn’tkdaclmmxtos&. 

Q Ohy. Butyoukwnorccolkztionofanyotkr 

anick. 

A No,IQn’t. No. 

Q wficular3r. 

A Right. 

Q Okay. Did you have subscqumt convQsBtiolls with 

h&.Lindsey&atdeyabouttkDrW?gcRcpataranythiag 

Page 1, 

1 lefaum!dLtkBt&Rql#t7 

2 A No. 

3 Q Didyouspedcwithanyonedscwkwasaceompanyirg 

4 tkPlui&!nttotkdcpositi~d~bisbl~tKanyo5c 

5 ~~~~~H~~~~.~~ 

6 A NotthatIroxdl. 

7 Q Okay. DidyoutalkwithMr.Lindseyaftcrkaad 

8 tkR.sident~toth:whibcHous:fnrmtk~k 

9 HOU!& 

0 A rms=Iwouldhavc. rfIwJistbat,x’mslaeI 

1 wouMheve. Ijustdon’tkaowifIstsyadthcwhokday~ 

2 tk0ffia:tdayornot 

3 Q Okay. Wlmt’syourb&rccolla%ionofwknyou 

4 kftthlltday? 

5 A IbopcIl&b&ac5z3O. Itwua!Saturdsy. 

6 Ircallydlm’tkww. 

7 Q Okay. DidyoumcctwithtbcPrcsiitlpLrlh 

8 dqrositiat? 

9 A No. 

0 Q AadyoumaykvcmdwitbA4r.Lindscyafter 

1 Mr.Liadseylc&umai? 

z A Imighthave Ifkcamcbnckintkof&I’m 

3 suleIwalldlmvcgcalcandKuIhim. 

4 Q Ohy. Butyouk+vunozccolkcthnofwtually 

5 lxwiagwlthhim. btbwcoma7 

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Page 17 Page l! 

1 A Right. 1 A Yes. Thcydid. 

2 Q ~y~awareofamcx&gwiththtPtes&nf 2 Q Ohy. Do you -bUWbXltbydidhvthUKh? 

3 Mr.LindscyandMr.BowlesintbeOvalOffictaftertbe 3 WktbcritwasSuDdaycr4 Presideot’s depositioo? 4 A I don’t ~baifitwasSundayaMooday,butit 

5 A AnyawamxssthatImightbavewouldnotbavebem 5 wascitbzroaeoft.bEdays. 

6 atthetimetbatitwashappening. 6 Q Okay. Did you have any discussions with Vanm 

7 Q Okay. Doyoubaveanawmzness oftbatlmzting 7 Jadanthat Sunday’? 

8 &+pp_? s A I~~Isndizmb.imonMnndav. _ _r_ ~_ _ _~~ ____,. ImiChthwc 

------ 

9 A Yes. 9 spokmtobimmSunday,too. IspcaktoVanonJrndanquik 

0 Q Okay. How did you ecmx to know of that? 10 frcqucntly. 

1 A Inthecourscofthisinvest.igati~tbenbave 11 Q Okay. DoyounxaIlokkpbonccoov~&~~witb 

2 bazanumberofdifferentissuesthatwe’veb8dtoaddres 12 Mr. Jordan app suximak@ 7:19 pm. on Sunday at tk wbik 

3 asaA’ve&xessed issues&ityouallhavesoughtor 13 House colmseI’s of%&? 

4 infomaticmyoubavempestedami,intbecoursofthat 14 A I don’t, but it’s quite possl%lc. I spesk to 

s role,Ibavegainedthatkindofinformation. IS Vuoonalltktinz 7:19maSundaysrunslakfarmck 

6 Q okay. ~you~wbenyougainedthat 16 bc in tlx offi but it‘s quite possible. 

7 informatioo? 17 Q Okey. Doyourczallwktbcrorootyouwczctbat 

8 A No. .n *_ _* _” 15 &aIcrnarwldayworkingtbaC7 

9 Q ‘Ihe following day, Sunday, January 1 Stb, did you 19 A Idoo’t I doo’t. 

o discuss -- were you in the White House tbat day, that Sunday? 20 Q Did anyooc r&e to you tbc subject of tbc 

1 A Quite likely. 21 discussioo at luocb, wbakvu day it was, and I know that you 

2 Q Okay. Do you re& any discussions with anyone 22 don’t specifically xcall wktkr it was Sunday or Mooday, 

3 CaLoaning the Presid&‘s depositioo? 23 did anyooc r&k to you tk subject of tk discus&o 

4 A No,notthatIrecaK 24 bcourm Mr. Lindsey aod Mr. Jordan at that lunch? 

5 Q DidyoumeetwithMr.Lindseyintbeofficeany 25 A Yes. M.r.Liodseydid. 

Page 18 Page 20 

1 tinx that day, Sunday? 1 Q okay. Andwbatdidkkllyouwastknaturcof 

2 A I doubt it. I don’t know. 2 tk discussion at hmcb? 

3 Q You know Vanon Jordan, right? I’ve asked you one 3 A Can I consult with my lawyer? 

4 question about Mr. Jordan. Mr. Jordan is a friend of yours. 4 MR. APPERSON: Surely. 

5 .Is that correct? 5 MR. BENNElTz Ms. Mills, bccausc ‘WC’= vay close 

6 A &rect. 6 to our lunch br& we’rr: going to ask you otkr qwatioas 

7 Q AreyouawareofMr.JordancaUingMr.Lindsey 7 ardtfiaryoucancmsuhwithhimaboutthatovatbclunch 

8 Stmdaymoming? 8 brcal& if that’s &ay. 

9 A Yes. 9 THE WITNESS: okay. 

0 Q Okay. How did you unuz to know of that telephone 10 BY MR. APPERSON: 

A- +,. k& 1 ;*A-R 1 C&l fiCZE Xi. h- w II=. -J i :: Q u,:,, a.... L -11 sL.3.~ “luumr~nu,~r 

2 A I don’t know. I mean, Bnxe might have told me,. 12 A Yea. 

3 Q Okay. What didyouun&rstandtbenamof the 13 Q mright. hyou rc!xMnba if you bad discussions 

4 telephoneeatlwas? 14 with Mr. Lindsey lakr that day, Sunday? 

5 A Idon’thaveanundastandingofthenatureoftbat 15 A I’msureIdid. 

6 particular telephone cali. 16 Q Okay. DidyoudiscussthcDnrdgcRqwrttbst 

I Q Okay. You believe you Lamed of the telephone 17 Sunday again? 

8 callfromMr.Lindsey? 18 A Idoo’tkwwifIwaadiscussingtbc&udgeF@M 

9 A Right. IknowthatIlCWXdthat~.LindseywaS 19 attbstpoiotorwkthunnotbytbatpointtbcrepotw 

o going to go have breakfast or 1mc.b with Vunm and I just 20 frauTimcwasa&ingiofamatiooaboutwhatNewsw&was 

1 doa’trememberwbenIleamedthat,buti-~owbe~dbe’d 21 wQrk@onandwascaIliogtoourpKsspcapletorckywhat 

2 spokentovernonandtbeywercgoingtohavebreakfastor 22 skurKkfs~tbcmtobcwarkingw. Aodtbatwoukllwc 

3 lunch, I believe, on Monday, but it might have been Sunday. 23 bonmorclikely,Itbidra~dtkcoavosation~ 

4 Q Okay. Do you know wi-&er or not they did in fact 24 woukibavebaobaving. 

5 have lunch? 25 Q Okay. You mcntioocd carlia whm we fmt talked 

__- _^ 

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2882 

hi xc: Grand Jury Procadings Multi-PagCTx August 11,1998 

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Page 21 

1 abouttbeDrudgeRep0rttbatthcreweKinfacttw0~ 

2 essentially, the first report which your recollection was did 

3 notidentifyMs.Lewin&ybyname4 A Right. 

5 Q -andtbenasubseq~tonewhichdid 

6 A Asubsequentonewbichactuallywasjust&r 

7resume. 

8 Q Okay. But nooetbeless identitied her, am I 

9conect? 

0 A Yes. It was a xesume, but it didn’t - or cleverly 

I enough, I though% it did not attach the two. 

2 Q Isee. Didyouattacbtbetwoinyourmind? 

3 A I didn’t, but I know that other people did and so 

4 that’showIcametormderstandthatthetwowereattached 

5 Q Okay. ~you~whentheresume cameout? Was 

6 tllat Sunday, the following day, or later? 

7 A I don’t know. I don’t remember. 

8 Q Okay. WhoattheWhiteHousehadattachedthetwo 

9 orwastalkingabouttbepossibiityofthenbeinga 

:o connection? 

II A You know, I truthfully don’t know the answer to 

:2 that question. I’m sure that - I’m sure that Bruce likely 

13 would have attached the two, but I don’t know who else migbl 

14 have also been discussing it 

15 Q Okay. Do you know whether or not the subject of 

Page22 

1 attaching tk two was discusad bctwaz~ Mr. Jordao and 

2 Mr.LindSey? 

3 A Idon’tknow. 

4 Q Andjustforthcrccord,aunIcormct,your 

5 extension at tk White House is w 

6 A That’s correct. 

7 Q AndMr.Lindscy’sis. Isthtcorrcct? 

8 Do you reck that? 

9 

-_ 

A u 1s kir. iindscy's. 

0 Q I’msony,whatdidIsay? 

1 A Somdhiogdiff~t. 

i Q Okay. Iappnzciatetbat. That&you. Ibadtbat 

3 wriaCn, I’m just not reading it right. Thanks. 

4 Allright. Totbeprtcnttbatyoutalkaito 

5 Mr.JordaoSuodayoigh~youbaveno~lkctionofa 

5 particular convaxation or discussion with him? 

7 A No,butI’mcertainifallofthsediffamt 

K thingswerr:goingon,Iwouldbavcsai~youknow,therc’sa 

3 lotofreportsabout&YorZ. Italktohimabouttkncws 

3 as ml& so I’m certain I would have discussal it. 

1 Q Okay. AndthatwouldincludcthcLkudgcFkportor 

2 whatevcrrcportshadsurfacalatthctimc? 

3 A Ido&knowifIhaddiscusscdf.kLkudgef@ort 

4 withhimattbattimckeauseIknowhccamcbytbcWbite 

5 Houscon,Ibclicrt,MondayaodIknowattbattimcBruccand 

Page 2: 

1 IsawhimaodIknowattbattime~mmtiooedtheDrudge 

2 ReportortalloxltobimabouttheDnldgcReport. SoIdonY 

3 knoWifItakdt0himaboutififISpOketOhimthat 

4 evening. 

5 Q Okay. Allright- bt’sgo!otbeMonday. That 

r ____ 1._.--_. ._L#a 

0 Was JanUary 1YUlI 

7 A Right. 

8 Q ~whendoyourecalltbemeesingtakingplace? 

9 A Ibeh’ckrnonwascamingintosectbehsidmt 

o and he stopped out by Bruce’s office and I was in Bruce’s 

1 office. Il3at’smybestnxollfztion. 

2 Q Okay. AndwbattimewasbetoseetheResident? 

3 Doyouraau? 

4 A No. Idon’tknowwbattimeitwas. 

5 Q WhattimedoyouresalIseeingMr.JordaninBru~ 

6 Lidsey’s off&? 

7 A you koow, I kind of think it was midday, but that’s 

8 mybestscnst. 

9 Q Okay. Howloogdidthemeeting-wasanyone& 

0 prcsentotherthanMr.Lindsey,Mr.Jor&nandynxs4.fin 

1 Mr. LiIKisey’s office? 

2 A No. Un-uh. 

3 Q Areyouaxtainthatitwasinh4r.Liadsey’s 

4 office? 

5 A Yes. h&u-hmm. Iknowthatafkerbesawthe 

Page 2s 

1 Resident,IbelievehecamcbackbyandIthinkhecameto 

2 myoffceatthatpoint. ButwhaJIftisawhim,itwas 

3 down in Bruce’s off&. 

4 Q Okay. And you saw Mr. Jordan twicz, ona before 

5 llisIneetiugtiththe~&nt6 A hh-bmm. 

7 Q -andthentbereafter? 

8 A con’ea%. 

9 Q okay. I&!s && w1 ‘& rm _. _-x-b L*fo= 

0 hismeetingwiththePresident. Tbatfirstmatin&you 

1 nxallitkuginMr.Iindsey’sofftice,c0rzect? 

2 A Right. 

3 Q Andwasanyoneelsepresent? 

I A No. 

5 Q Okay. Whatwastbzsubjedoft&mding? 

5 A l%e?ewasn’treallyasubjcctoftkxmxting. 

7 Weweretalkingaboutanumberofthings,butIknowVanox 

3 hadindicatedhisviewthatthcPaulaJoneslawsuitshouldbc 

? settled,butwetalkedaboutaaumbuoftb&gsandthatwas 

J oneoftbethingsthatIknowwasonhismind 

I Q Okay. Tellmeingeaaaltamswbattbeotbcr 

2 thingsare. Totheex~ttky’Fenotnlevanfwedcm’t 

3 needtogointokm. 

t A Idon’tnznembertbcxnbciqanythiagperserehted 

5 toth&o~thanIknowth%thebadindicataIatoatpoint 

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khadtriedto-khadworkedoogettiagajobforMtica 

Lewin&y. Ibelievethat’sthetimeatwhichIlearoedthat. 

0th3thantbat,youknow,weweretaikingaboutsocial 

stl.lfT. 

Q Okay. Howlongdidthemeetinglastin 

Mr. Lindsey’s offla? 

A ~prOb&lynOtVfZQ’loU& 1~IIkiIlllkS~So. 

Q Okay. What s@fically do you Fcc8u Mr. Jordan 

teUingyouandMr.Lindseyconcerningtheneedorthehope, 

I don’t mean to m&hamcterize it, you tell me, what exactly 

did k say about settling the Paula Jones lawsuit? 

A Ithinkkwasjuststatingbisviewthatk 

thought the Paula Jooes lawsuit should be settled and it was 

a view bred by, you know, lots of different people. So I 

dido’tthinkofitasanymoresigoificantorle?S 

significant than other people’s views in that regard 

Q Allright. Didkindicatewhetherkplannedto 

telltheI3Csidentthatsame-- 

A I believe k did. Yes. 

Q Do you know wktkr or not the meeting with the 

President was on that subject or on somethiog else? 

A I don’thmw. 

Q You indicated that -- what’s your best xx~.~&~tiOn 

as to what Mr. Jordan told you with respect to his efforts to 

help Monica Izwin&y get a new job? 

Page 26 

1 A IjustrecallthatwementiooedthattbeRwasthe 

2 DrudgeReportorsometbingrelatedtotheDrudgeReportand 

3 k indicated that k had tied to find employment for her. 

4 Q Okay. And did you question bim further about the 

5 extent of his efforts or how that had come about? 

6 A No. ti-uh. 

7 Q Didbeindicatehowthathadcomeabout? Howk 

8 hadcometobeklpingkrfmdajob? 

9 A No. No. 

0 Q WheodidMr.Jordan-youindicatedthatkcame 

J back presumably after tk meeting with the President. 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Iassumeyoudidnotatteodtbemeetingwithtbe 

4 President. 

5 A -bat’scorrect. 

6 Q Did Mr. Lindsey, as far as you know? 

7 A Not to my knowledge. 

8 Q All right. You there&b saw Mr. Jordan by 

ghimself? 

:0 A Yes. 

I Q In your offke. 

i2 A Yes. 

13 Q okay. whatwa.sdiscussedwhenhcc;nnebacktoyour 

14 office? 

!S A Heactuallywasjuststoppingbackuptosay 

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goodbyt,tbatkhadspokmwiththeRcsidentandtktk 

wasgoingtoheadouL 

Q Okay. Wastkreanyhntbad&ussionoftk 

settlement of the Paula Jones lawsuit discussed that day? 

A No,otkrtknthatwashisstro@ykldviewand 

ithadbeeoforsometime. 

Q Okay. Didkreempksizeitatthatsubsequmt 

mttingaSwell? 

A Not to my recollection. 

Q Didkindicattaoythingaboutthenatumofbis 

meeting with the President? 

A NotthatIrecalI. 

Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Jordan tknfter 

met with Mr. Lindsey again? That day. I’m sony. 

A No. 

Q okay. Did you have discu&ons with Mr. Lii 

aboutt.kfactthatMr.JordanhadassistedMooicaLminsky 

in obtaining employmeat that day? 

A NottbatIrecall. Imean,kin&atedtbatwku 

wewuebotbintkrool&soIdon’treallylX!callhaviogan~ 

1 subsequent discussions about it. 

2 Q Okay. Didyoudiscusswhileyouwereintheroom 

3 or tbcafkr tbc potential difXcultics that that would 

4 pose? 

5 A No. 

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Q From a legal standpoint or media standpoint? 

A No, 

Q Okay. Did Mr. Jordan indicate wkthu or not k 

hadass&edMs.Izwinskyinobtainingalawyer? 

A Not to my rec~lIection. 

Q Did you subsequently learn that Mr. Jordan bad 

assisted Ms. Lewinsky in obtaining a lawyer? 

A YeS,IreadaboUtitintkpaPer. 

Q Okay. After you learned - and you and Mr. Jordan 

are CloS frieods. 

A Yes. 

Q Youspeakofta~ 

A Yes. 

Q Afteryouxeadaboutthatinthepaper,didyou 

discusstktfactwithMr.Jordan? 

A No. 

Q DoyouknowwhyatthemeetiogMr. Jordantoldyoa 

thatkhadklpedMonicaLewinsky@ajobbutdidnot 

discusswithyouhisklpinget&ingheralawye.r? 

A Well, the discussion really wasn’t about Monica 

Lewinskyperse. ItbinkpartofitwasabouttbeDrudge 

RepoltaXKiItbi&his commentwas”Itriedtogetajobfar 

Ms.Izwin&y.” Idoll’tIecaUtherebeinganyother 

discuSionaboutthemattcrperse. 

Q Okay. Andit’sveryclearinyourmindthatyou 

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Page 29 

1 bad not been previously told before this occasioo by Mr. 

2 Jo&n that he had as&ted Monica hwin&y in fmding a job 

3 Ri~tothe19tll. 

4 A Yes. MybestrecollectiooisthefifittheIeven 

5 beardhimspeakherMmewasoathatocc4oo. 

6 Q Didyoueverumveythatfact,thatMr.Jordanhad 

7 toldyouthathehadas&.edMticaLewin&yinfmdinga 

8 job, did you eva convey that to anyone else after he told 

9 youaudMr.Lindseyintbemeeting? 

1 0 A NottbatIrecall,butI’mcertainastbestory 

1 1 unfoldedwealltalkedaboutalltb?differentthingsthat 

1 2 were-factsthatwzrearisingoutofthematter,butI 

1 3 doo’t re4zll having soy particular discussions about that 

1 4 fact. 

1 5 Q Okay. h you know whether h%r. Lindsey conveyed 

1 6 that information to anybody? 

1 I A Idon’t. 

1 8 Q Wbenwastheftitimethatyouleamedthath&. 

1 9 Lewin&y’snamewasonthewitnesslistintbePauIaJones 

2 0 lit&itiOn? 

2 1 A Some time after the President’s deposition. 

2 2 Q Okay. Tell me, before the President’s deposition, 

2 3 what role, if any, did persons in the counsel’s office have 

2 4 in connection witi the Paula Jones litigation. 

2 5 A Well,PaulaJonesisamatterthatBruceandChuck 

Page 30 

addffssed,soasapracticalmatter,wheotherewue~uests 

for infoxmation, when there went subpoenas and other things 

like that, that typically was an issue that Bruce and Chuck 

addxsxd. 

Q Okay. Did you have any involvemen tinthepaula 

Jones litigation? You indicated that they were primarily 

ass@ed for that, but wae there ever occasions when you 

wae called upon to be involved in any matter involving Paula 

Jones? 

11 

1 

1 

1 

1, 

1 

1 

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4 

5 

A I’msuxpriortothetimethatwefiedour 

petition and al& the litigation that went on I would have 

beeoumsultedregardingissuesrelatingtoprivilegeand 

thingslikethat,butasapracticalmatter,intermsofthe 

day-to-day kind of issues that arise out of documeo trequests 

and subpoenas and other things like that, that was not a 

maaerthat1handled. 

Q Did you handle any subpoena requests in the Paula 

Jones litigation? 

A Not that I recall. 

MR. APPERSON: It’s probably time for the gmnd 

jurorstogogetsomelunchandwc’lldothataswell. So 

we’ll bm.ak here and if you’ll note the questions - 

THEWITNESS: Yes,Idid 

MR. APPEMON: -anddiscussthatwithyour 

counsel and we’ll pick those up when we come back. 

i-l Page” August 11,1998 

, 

Pa&731 

1 And we’re going to xtum, Madam Foreman? 

2 THE FOREPERSON: In one hour. 

3 MR. APPERSON: In one hour. 

4 THE WITNESS: At1:30? 

5 h-lR APPERSON: At 1:30. 

6 THE WITNESS: Thankyou 

7 hfR. APPERSON: Thank you 

8 (Whaqm, at 12:32 p.m., a lunchxm rexxss xns 

9 taken.) 

0 l **** 

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AFTERNOON SESSION 

(I:59 pm_) 

CHERYL DENISE MlLLS 

wasnxallaiasawitncrsann4aftahavingbcalprcviously 

dulyswornbytbcForqnrsonoftbcGraadJury,wasaamiacd 

and kstifkd furtkz as follow: 

VATION (RESUMED) 

MR.BENNEll? Ms.Mills,yourucstillurxkzoath. 

And,hfadamForelady,mhavcaquarum? 

THE FOREPERSOM Yes, WC do. 

h4R.BENNEIT Andtbaearcnounauhkd~ 

prsent7 

THE FOREPERSON: Absolukly ~llt. 

BY MR. APPERSONz 

Q Didyouhavcachancctospcakwitfryourattomey 

onthc-Ithinkmlx3vcoDcoutstandingqustioa,wh8twas 

discussa.iattbchmc&tbcSundayorMondayIun&bdwun 

Mr. Jordan and hfr. Lindsey. 

A It’smy l . %ngtbstthydiscusd 

L3ldanmtaad,ixlparticular,MT.Jordan’svicwthat 

aaLmntwasimParmn~givcllthcspcctnclcoftk 

&position. 

Q Okay. Andtbntxefusto scthrntinthcPaula 

Joncs mattm. I 

D&&_&d Rmrting services. IllC. (202) 296-292Y 

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Q Are you aware of more specific dixussions from 

that lunckxm with zspect to that matter? 

A No. 

Q Okay. And how did you learo tk subj& of tk 

diSuSiOnattklLXlKh? 

A hfr.Lindscytoldme. 

Q Okay. DidyoualsoleamitfromMr.Jordan? 

A Idon’trememkrdhusshghisluoch,butIknow 

thatMr.Lhdseybadtoldmethttht’swhattbeytatLed 

about. 

Q I&tmegoba& WithreferencetotbefvstDrudge 

Report, you had testified that you treated it as tabloid 

journaLm,withagrahofsalt,thosearemywords,but 

esseotially not mzssxily reliable. 

A correct. 

Q Atwhatpoinfifany,didyoubegintotreatthat 

report seriously, as something other than a non-reliable 

report? 

A ~e~,Ithinktokquitecandid,I~waysviewth: 

Drudge Report as somewhat unreliable because I was familiar 

withtkirin auxracies with regard to Mr. Blumenthal’s 

familylife,soIalwaystreattbemwithalittlebitofcare 

because I don’t really always believe they have accurate 

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Q Okay. With respect to that particular - &at’s a 

gcmualobsavationonyourpartofthcrcpmtit& 

xgardkss of tbc topic. 

A Thcmagazixabomvuyou-yqasancntity, 

SSOppOSCdtOthCSpcfifiiOOChgarcral, 

Q Okay. Oby. Withrespect totkparticularDrudgc 

Rcportontbcintanatth;~tcHousethatpoppcdupon 

your computer and you rrad and conveyed to Mr. Lindsq, with 

mpa%tothatreport+didtheaecomeatinbzwknyouvicwcd 

it as pa%aps reliable a a serious matter? 

A No. 

Q Atanytime? 

A I’vcncvuvicwaitbcDmdgcRcportaszdhblt 

without rcgml to what the substance of it is that tky ~lt 

diSCUSSiDg. 

Q Includingtksubstanccoftbisrqmtofthc 

intern at the Wbitc House? 

A TkmcamapointatwbichIobviouslywasawan 

tbatdp’twastkissucfxgafdingMs.Lcwinsky’svisitsto 

tbcWhittHouscandatthatpaintIdidn’tgobafktobolrat 

wbatthcDrudgcRqartlmdsaidtodetamiacwlxtbczornot1 

thoughttbcDrudgeRqcatwasacculat%ilxummtcor 

charactaizabtc in som otbu way. 

Q Okay. Asyouzcc.dltheDmdgcRqatatthis 

point - 

Page= August 11,1998 ‘ 

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A Idoo’trecalltheDNdgeReport. 

Q -areyouabletoA Inotbcrwo&,I~thatitwasahutan 

intem,itwasaboutaniotanthatwasatDODandaoall~ 

relationship. That’s the most I could tell you about tk 

DrudgeReport,butIknowitwasmuchloagatbanthat. I 

ruxmberitbeingaboutapageorsomthiag. 

Q Allright. Howisitthatyoucametohavetbe 

reportappearooyourcQmputerattkwhiteHouse? 

A hwiupopup wbeneverMattDrudgeszndsouta 

report. 

Q Okay. Popuponwhat? 

A Oo my computer. 

Q DoyouhavetobeintotkInternetforittopop 

up? 

A No. 

Q Iguess-tellushowisitthatMr.Drudgecan 

direct what pops up 011 your computer. 

A Ithinkkcan. Ithinkkdirectswbatkseods 

outandIguesskeitkrbasamahglistorsom&iog 

tbatrefl~whoitgetsseotto,buthe,Ithink,justdots 

agenericsend 

Q Allright. Doyoubavetotakeanyaffiive 

clickorsteponyourwmputertomakeitappear? 

A No,it’sLikeane-maiL WknIgetan&my 

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computerwillm&eanoiseandatthatpointIcaneitkzgo 

iIlt0tktmailOrU?ChUedohgs0IMbhgCls:UltilI 

decidetogointotbeCmail. -Ihesametbingistkcase 

withtkDnldgeReport. 

Q Okay. Are you able to couotermand that poppiog up 

oa your computer if you so desimd? 

A Idoo’tknowtkanswertotbat. 

Q Okay. Have you ever sought to do so, to keep 

what’s the equivalent of electronic junk mail off of your 

computer? 

A No. 

Q Okay. Whatotkrsortsofreportspopup? 

A People Daily, which is my favorite magahe. And I 

can’trenrmberwhatelse,butImezm,tkzearesevemL 

MR APPERSON: All right. 

BY MR. BENNEIT 

Q Isthissortofapreferrnctthatyoucan-I’m 

pretty computer illitemte, so - 

A Iam,too,soIapologiaetotheextentQ hyouprogramapreferraoesettkrgmyour 

computersothiitauytimethreisanupdateintkDrudge 

Reportitwillautomahcallyshowtbat? I~didyouhave 

to install special software or is it your xmse that it’s 

cootmlledatDnldge’send? 

A Idoo’tknowhowit’sactuallycontrollui,butI 

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2886 

n re: Grand Jury Proceedings MtlXti-Page" August 11, I998 

1 

Page 3; I Page 39 

1 didn’t bavc to put spo5al software on my compun Q 1 about Linda Ttipp? 

2 som&DglikCtbat_ 2 A LiadaT~ppworMinouroff’iee,so-y,,,t~w, 

3 Q YoujustmattioncdtbtPwpkDailyisyccr 3 sbewasthercforweralYCdlS,Iguess,orapaiodof 

4 favotik. 4 tinq so I couldn’t tell you all my discussions about Linda 

5 A Mm-hmm. 5 Tripp in our office. 

6 Q Sotbatwouldsuggcsttbat’ssomdhing mwtto 6 Q Okay. Wbatsortofdiscusionswouldyouhavehad 

7 see. 7 withh4r.LindseyatthetimcwhenA4s.Trippworkedinthc 

8 A Mm-hmm. 8 offia? 

9 Q Howwouldyougoaboutrecciviagtbat? Didyou 9 A Gxtimes she would substitute as an ass&ant for 

0 bavetorcqucstofPcopk&ilytbattkyandittoyou? 1 0 Brua. I would express my observations regard@ her 

1 A I didn’t. That’s not to say, tbou& then arm’t I 1 performana. 

2 othrpcopkwhoknowtbatand~ts~mupfrritor 1 2 Q Andwhatwenthoseobsuvationsasyouamveyad 

3 sometGglikethat,butIdiC’t. Itstartcdappcaringooc 1 3 tlUZl.lt0Mr.Lindsey? 

4 dayaSWeI.L 1 4 A Idon’trecaU,butIknowtheyAtedtoba 

5 A JUROk Could I ask a quick question? 1 5 i.nse&gberselfbe~himandpeoplewtrowereseekingto 

6 Ooyourbusiocsscard,&youbavcyourcmail 1 6 speak with him about different matters and people’s 

7 addrrss t&z? 1 7 frwrati~intbatregard 

8 THEWITNESS: Idon’t,butouremaila&xscsarc I 8 Q DidMr.Lindsydoqthingasaresultofthat 

9 rradiiy availabk. Tbcy’n publisbcd. 1 9 information or your obsenations that you conveyed to him? 

0 AJUROR: Oh,okay. Thank you. 2 0 A She only substituted for him 6n a couple of 

1 BYMRBENNE?T: 2 1 tXXZSiottsth&ItT3Xll. 

2 Q Soitmayhavcbrm~clseattkU’bit 2 2 Q Did you ever have disassims with Mr. Lindsey 

3 Houscwboprogrammcdtbisassomctb+thatsom&odyinyaa 2 3 cowming his wnversatioas with Linda Tripp amcem@ 

4 positionougbttobeabktosce -~‘SCUl*te 2 4 Katilleut w&y? 

5 wtbcDrudgeRcportmsomrfiing? 2 5 A Yes. 

Page 38 Page 4. 

1 A You’re asking me to speculate. 1 don’t know the 1 Q Wba~didyouhavesuchdiscussions? 

2 answer, but I know that I do get it and I’m Assuming that it 2 A IwasprcsentwhenhcspokewitbMs.Trippmtbc 

3 must be because they either have my e-mail address or it’s 3 tlcpbontw,thcf~toccasion~tbcspo~witbber~I 

4 beenuxkdtocometomye-mailadcltess. 4 maybanbcmprscntatthcsocood,butIdon’t~ 

5 Q And theo how do you get out of it? Can you just 5 Q Okay. Whcowastkfirstoccasioothathctalkul 

6 hitackletebuttonorsomethinglikethatanditwilltake 6 toh5s.Trippontbctekpboncwiz~youwaepre.sa1t? 

7 itbackto- 7 A Idon’truxll. 1mcalltMtkzcwas,I 

8 A Sure. It’slikeaxguiare-ma&soyoucan&ag 8 belkvc$aDrl+Rcpoztinwbicbthcyindkaledtb?3t 

9 itovertotheeash,whichisthewayinwhichaacomputcr 9 KatMculwilkywasspeakiDgoutaga@1bdicvqkl 

0 system is set up to throw e-mails that you’ve read away. II 0 NmwerLandImigbtbeco&singanumbuofdiffauntncws 

1 MR. BENNEm Okay. Thank you. 1 1 repatsaudLindaTripptrkdtoreschBmceandultima89y 

2 BY MR. APPER!3ON: 1. 2 SpOktOlliUllrgardingbUimpnss~~h4S.WiIlcy’S 

3 Q Did you ever have a discussion with Vernon Jordan 1. 3 alcoun~aSSbctsti~oraSSbeStatalwithnYpcctm 

4 where he related to you his fN&rariCm of having Monica 18 4 tk Pxcsideot 

5 LewinsQ making repeated telephone calls to him about any 1. 5 Q Okay. Howdidyouwmctobep~twitb 

6 matter? II 6 hfr.LindseyonbissideoftbcamvasatioowitbMs.Tripp? 

7 A No. 1’ 7 was&atmaaybappaWanccorwercyouaskaltobctbue 

8 Q Did you ever discuss with Vernon Jon&~ Monica 1: B for tbat purpose? 

9 Lewin&ypRpaliq&signingorfiliagaIlafIidatitinthe I! 9 A It wasn’t bappcr&axc 1koWthathenoasgoing 

0 Paula Jones litigation? 21 D torulnnbcrpagosandIsaidIwasgoingtositin. 

1 A No. 2 1 Q Okay. Tbatwasadcckicnthstyoumatk? 

2 Q Have you ever spoken to Mr. Lindsey about Linda 2: 2 A Itbi&mbothtbw&ttbatthstwasawiaecoune 

3 Tripp? 2: 3 of a&xl. 

4 A Yes. 21 4 BY MR. BENNKlT: 

5 Q What have been your discussions with Nr. L.&key 2: 5 L Q Doyounxallwbctbutbiswouldbavebanbefore 

Page 37 - Page 40 
2887 

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Page41 Page 4. 

1 tkactualNcwsweekarticlc~toprtss? 1 matta,didytm2 A Ibelieveso. IknowthatMs.Tripphadakly 2 A IshIdsaybe’sah~yshadthatGew. 

3 qmkentoNewmmk,buttheyhadnotyetruntheirstory,at 3 Q Okay. That’sessmtiallywhatIwaotto&you 

4 hstismybest~lection. 4 about. Did you have otkr discussions with Mr. Jordan abou 

5 Q Andsoifthearticlemninapproximatelycarly 5 hispositioninwimtingtosettletbePaulaJonesmamr? 

6 August of 1997, that would suggest that this conversation 6 A ~don’tknowiftkywenzspecifiiinthatrqard, 

7 tlMyouovahcaKlatlcastpartof- 7 butIk.nowhewasalwaysoneoftbepeoplewhoadv&the 

8 A I overbeard tk entire conversxtion, Bruce’s side. 8 Presi&ntwbowasalwaysofthcpositionthatthesuitsbould 

9 Q Bruce’sside. You didn’t hcarherpart. 9ksctt.M. 

0 A I did not bear Ms. Tripp’s side. 10 Q Okay. Whatwaetbepointswhichhesdvacatcdin 

1 Q ‘IhatwouldhavebeeoinlateJulyorearlyAugust 11 t8kingthatpGsitioxl? 

2 of’97? 12 A 1 don’t particularly recall any points. I know as 

3 A That’smybStguess. It!hkitwaSaCtI.&y 13 peoplediscuszdtbismattertkywoulddiscuqw&l,soand 

4 July, but - 14 sothinksthatyou&oulddoXorYorZandIdorananber 

5 BY MR. /@PERSON: IS associatingtkp&icmwithMr.Jor&nthatkbelieved 

6 Q Whatdoyourecallofh4r.Lindszy’ssideofthat 16 thattheyshouldsettlethelawsuit. 

7 coaversation? 17 Q Okay. But yourecallno specificallyartia&& 

8 A I~tbatkb&allylistenedtowhatskwas 18 ~thatkmradvanced8stowhykfelttbclawsuit 

9 indicatingandalsoaskedherwbetherornotsk’dkwiUing 19 shouldbesealed? 

D todiscussberamcemswithMr.BennettandIbelieveshe 20 A No. 

1 &katedmaybeintbcatCmativebecauseksaidkwould 21 Q Allright. Lzt’sgobacktotbedayoftk 

2 trytoputthemintouchwithoneanotber. 22 President’s ckpositioa. We’ve talked somt about that_ 

3 Q HadyoudiscussedwithMr.Lindseypriortohis 23 Jan~17th+aSaturday,attheWhiteHouse. Doyourecall 

4 retrnningMs.Tn’.pp’scallhowkwouldhandlttbc 24 JohnPodes@DeputyChiefofStaffcomingto~thatday 

s conversation with Ms. Tripp? 25 withref~cetoaTiiMagazinestotythatm@thavchcen 

Page 42 Page4 

1 A No. IbadwohdwithMs.Trippforapaiodof 1 brexkingatthattimc? 

2 timandsoIpasona&didnotftikrtokazliabk 2 A No. IxcallJohtalkingtomaboutaTimc 

3 individual and for that reason didn’t belic~e k should 3 qortuwbo~saJcingtofmdoutaboutaNcwssrdcstay 

4 rctumtktck+cmccall,butkdccidcdtktkwasgoing 4 thatwaabcingwritteoandtkywaEaa&iDgtotryalzdmatcb 

5-toruumtkt&phonccallandsoIaatin. 5 that. 

6 Q Okay. Do you know if Mr. Lindsey disclosal to 6 Q Okay. WbendmingthatdaymSaturdaydoyou 

7 Ms. Tripp during &at conva-sation that you wue pnsent? 7 raxllMr.Podcstacomhgtoyoutodiscuastkt? 

s A No, beaux I wasn’t prscnt on tk tckpboac with 8 A Idon’thow,butitwaaduriugtkcouncofdr: 

3 ~.T~pp,IwaslisteningtowhatBruecwassaying,u,Iwas 9 day. Icouldn’ttcIlyouwhattimitwasoranytbinglikc 

1 sittingintkroomwithhim. 10 that 

I Q Okay. But tkt fact was not disclosed to 11 Q Okay. Andwktwasi~asbcstyourccall,tbrtk 

2 Ms. Tripp. Is that eanect? 12 taisuiwitllyou? 

3 A Idon’tbchcso. Idon’t raIKmbcrhimaayiog 13 A HcraisaitktthertwasaTiiMagaz&rcparca 

I that 14 wkwastrying~matchastorytktNcw~wasworkingm 

5 Q Didyouthaca~ordidMt.Lindseytakeatcpsto 15 tbatiblxitodcalwithstxrfandtapt!a. 

5 ~tactMr.Bamuxasansultofthiscoovasation? 16 Q Oicay. DoyouruallMr.Podestadiscussiqwi& 

1 A IknowIdidnot. Idon’tknowifBruczdid. 17 youasuggcstioaofyanc4mtactingh4r.Kauiallwithxspcct 

3 Q Did you attempt to contact anyorz in Mr. Bauztt’s 18 tn tk report&s question? 

2 lawf~oranylawyasfaathcRsi~tuarcsultoftbc 19 A Idon’~butI’msurctkt’ssoux&hgthatk 

1 coava-sation? 20 wouldobvioualyprobablytcumtodo. 

I A No,Ididnot 21 Q Okay. DoyoutecallcallingMr.Ihdalltktday7 

! Q Otkrtl~tkJamiary19thmahg,tkh4onday, 22 A No,butit’stkkindofncwsnportthatIwaaki 

I Januaryl9thm&ing,tktyoukdwithMr.Jordaaand 23 bavcrclaycdtobim. 

I hfr.LindscywetalhdaboutMatwkzeMr.Jccdani&icated 24 Q okay. YatnxaIlattanptingtocontactMr.I&cltcy 

i tbatktkughtitwaadcsirabk.to@tktkpaulaJ~ 25 that day, aa m’vc talhd about bcfonz 

. . . 1* 

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II re: Grand Jury Proceedings MUlti-Page” 

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1 A Withregardto--IthinkItoldyouIwasworking 1 

2 intbeofflce,sotherewereanumkrofmaacr$butIknow 2 

3 thatinthefrrstcontactthatIhadwithhimIdidrclaytbe 3 

4 factoftheDrudgeReport. 4 

5 Q Right. Andwetalkedaboutthat. 5 

6 AC&U%. 6 

7 Q And now I’m asking you if at some other point 7 

8 ~the&yinresponsetoNr.Paoctta’sbringingyouthis 8 

9 ix&m&on - 9 

&O A M.r.P&sta. I 0 

,I Q I’m sorry. You’reexactly right. Mr. Pot&&a 1 1 

.2 brix@ng you this iIlformatiol& did you have occasion to 1 2 

.3 attempt to contact Mr. Kendall? 1 ,3 

.4 A Idon’tdwiiethKmnotIcontacted~. 1 4 

.5 Kendall, but it’s the kind of report over which I would 1 5 

.6 typicallye2+llhim,anewsreportlikethat. I 6 

7 Q Allright. DoyounxallifMr.Podestaandyou 1 7 

8 had discussed this matter before you attempted to contact 1 8 

9 Mr.LindseywithltxpecttotheDnldgeReportorhadthat 1 9 

10 alreablhappened? 2 !O 

:1 A No,Ithinkitwasafter. Ibelieveitwasafter, 2 11 

:2 butIeouldhewroug. 2 12 

:3 Q HadyouspokentoMikeMcCunyabouttheTimeand 2 !3 

14 NewsweekEporterinquily7 2 !4 

:5 A I don’t believe I did I might have, but I don’t 2 !S 

Page46 

1 bclicvcIdid. 1 

2 Q Okay. Do you nzall k&ng Mr. Podcsta that you 2 

3 had gottm calls fmm h4ike McCumy about it? 3 

4 A I don’k but it’s quik rcasonablc that I would 4 

5 have. 5 

6 Q DoyourccalltcUingh4r.Podcstathatyoukd 6 

-I cbcc~withMr.Kendallsomctimcduringtbatdayandkkd 7 

8 ban contacti by News- with regard to tk same matter? 8 

9 A Yes,Ido rananbu him being contacti by Newswe& 9 

0 and I do nxall having a conversation with bim in which k 1 0 

1 saidtbatNewsw&wastryingtoreachhim-w,not 1 1 

2’Ncwswalc. TbataTimcrcportuwastryingtorcachbim. And 1 2 

3 thattkykdI&avoiccmail. I lunanbcrba~tbat 1 3 

4 conwmation. I don’t know wbehr or not tbat was a 1 4 

5 ccmvaxation that was prcmptai by M or by him calling. 1 5 

6 Q Okay. Doyourrcallwknduringtbcdayyouspokc 1 6 

7 with Mr. K&all? 1 7 

8 A No. 1 8 

9 Q Okay. Did you understand that Mr. Kendall was at 1 9 

0 tk time in tk R&dent’s deposition? 2 0 

1 A hir. Kendall wasn’t in the Pmidcnt’s &position. 2 1 

2 Q Okay. Was k at his ofiicd 2 2 

3 A Yes. 2 3 

4 Q Did you discuss witb Mr. ICuxiaU the Pxsident’s 2 4 

,S &position in tbz Paula Jones mat!fz? 2 5 L 

yetzmothcrtil.m?aftl7bcflrsttallCfdtoyouaboutthe 

Eporcer’s inquiry? 

A IknowIsaworspoketoJolmonszvcaaloccasions 

abouttbcTimeMagazinerepor&rovertbeeoumeofthat 

wxx&nd 

Q okay. DoyourecallMr.Po&starelayingtoyou 

thatinhismindhehadmadeacxmneztionbetwreoMonica 

Lewin&yaadthePaulaJooeseapz? 

A No. 

Q Isthatsom&ingyouwouldhaverexxl.ledthat 

dayifhehadtoldyoutbat? Wetalkedbeforethatyou 

hadnotm&suchacofme&minyourmind. I’mwon&& 

ifA IthinkIwouldhave,primarilytxxauseIkoewwhcn 

hctksc&dthis~~MagazinenportcrasStarrdtapcs, 

I thought it was the Star Magazine, so I didn’t have the 

association with Indepen&z3t Gxmsel Starr at that point. So 

Ithi&ifhehadindicatedsomethi&ofadX~tnaturc 

it would have probably ebmir&ed that impressioa that I had 

inmyheadatthetime. 

Q okay. But you have no recolhxtion of Mr. Pti 

informingyouthathehadmadeauxmeetioobetwamMcmiea 

Lewin&yandtbtPaulaJonescasz. 

Page 4c 

A Idoa’truxlltbat. 

Q Didh4r.hdestaxdaktoyoubiscffcHsintr’yi!@ 

tosccurcajoborjobncommcn datiwfcuMollicaLcwif+w 

that da& satlm.lay tk 17tb? 

A IbekvcatscrmcpointkandIdidspcakabout 

his efforts titb regard to a position with Ambawdor 

RiG~ifI mnanbu~tly. 

Q Okai. Andapositicmforwbom? 

A IbdicvcitwasforMs.Lmimky. 

Q Okay. And&was-okay. Idon’twaattolcwc 

tkrccOfdllal@ng. IbavTtkscnse,andImayk 

inc~youcurectmifI’mwma&tktIkdlmdustood 

you@=YP rwiouslytkttbcfnsttimcyoubadkafdof 

MOfliCaLCWhSkywaSwhcnlbfLJC&UdltibUfllXmGEVCMl 

&ysaftcrtkdqosition. Islhisrhshingyour 

rccolkcticm that you bad a discldc4l &out Ms. Lcwinsky 

withMr.P~~satllrdaytk17th7 

A Itdoesn’t-bowtodcscnbtthb-my 

llnda3tandingofMlmicaLewinskyrmsnotMundastandiagof 

ha. TkccmkxtindichtkissucruoscwithMr.PodGsta, 

tomybcstrccoIlection,wwnotintkc4x3tcxtoftkocws 

UtiCkS. 

Q Okay. Whatdoyoudtbewnkxtwasinyow 

discussion with Mr. Pod&a? I 

A Tkcqnkxtamscoutofacon~tionIhadwitb I 

August 11,1998 

, 

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Diversified Remwtin~ Services. Inc. (2021296-2929 
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1 Mr. Lindsey, which 1 beiieve would be privileged 

2 Q Okay. Well, let’s try to put it in context without 

3 atthispointrevealiDgorseekingfromyouwhatthe 

4 conversationwas. Tellmeagain. Youlearaed-Iguess 

5 statethatagain. Iapologizt. 

6 A IkarnedfromMr.Podestathatbehadsoughta 

7 positionforMs.LcwkkyonSaturday. 

8 Q ALI right. And I’m sorry, 1 don’t follow the 

g -00 between the conversation with Mr. Lindsey. I’m 

IO sureit’sjustmemissings0methingben. 

11 A No, it’s not you missing anything. I don’t know 

12 thattkre’sabettawaythatIcan&seribeitwithOUt 

13 addnkng - without breachiog the privilege. 

14 Q Okay. Youalsohadaccmversationwith~.Linckey 

IS thatsame&ywithrespecttoh4s.kwinskyandPodesta’s 

16 effortstogetajob? 

17 A Actually, I wouldn’t be in a p&ion to be able to 

18 answerthatquestionbecauseIbelievethatqutstionwouldbe 

19 privileged 

!O Q Okay. Let’sgetasmuch- 

!l A Tbeumtextinwhichitarosewouldbeoneinwhi& 

!2 Mr.Lindseywasseekingmygu.idancewithnzspecttoamatta 

!3 that our oflice was haadling. 

!4 Q Okay. And you’re focusing on a particular inquiry 

!5 by Mr. Lindsey. 

Page 50 

1 A Yes. Gmcct. 

2 Q Okay. Did that inquiry by Mr. Lindsey come afkr 

3 Mr.Podcstahadinformcdyouofhiscffortstosacurcajob 

4 forMs.kwinsky7 

5 A No. 

6 Q Itprazcdcdtbat. 

7 A Correct. 

8 Q Allright. Wasitcarlkthatsamedayorcarlicr 

9 still? 

IO A To tbc best of my rccollcction. 

I1 Q Okay. Approximately what time was that 

.2 ConvaXatiorl? 

.3 A I couldn’t tell you 

.4 Q All right We’ve got a couple of things now 

.5 happeJlingwtk17tll. oneisyoureffortstogd 

.6 Mr.LindseywithrcspccttotkDrudgeRcpart- 

:7 A No,you~sayingthat Iactuallyhuveba~~ 

i8 ~clear,I’~tricdtok,tith~pecttothat Iwork 

I9 onanumkofmattusandthercwasonemattuIwasworking 

!O oninparticularthat&yandIpagcdMr.Lindscyandintbt 

!l course of the convasetion about that I discussed with him 

!2 thcfacttbattheDnuigeRepoltwa.sgoiogon. 

!3 MR. APPERSON: You’re right. 

14 THBWITNEZk IjustwantcdtobevayckartbatI 

IS wasn’tpaginghimwithrq@tousDIlldgeReportbccauaI 

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1 &ink that woukl be inaccwlle. 

2 MR. APPERSON: And I apolcgize. You’re absolukly 

3 right 

4 THE WlTNESS: No, that’s OLey. 

5 MR APPERSON: You’ve said that two tks and I 

6 apologize. 

7 THE-S: ButcnnIbcacusaiformracoad? 

8 I want to consult with my lawyer about your qucstioll about 

9 this. 

0 MRAPPERSONZ sulcly. 

1 THE WITNESS: okay. 

2 MR APPERSON: And, I’m oarry, befw you go, I’m 

3 goingtoasktkbasisoftlXpri~soifyoumXlthnt 

4fKaL 

5 THE WITNESS: Right TM’S what I anticipated. 

6 MR APPERSON: okay. 

7 THE WlTNESs: okay. 

8 (Ik witncus was excused to confu with counsel.) 

9 THEFOREPERSON: Ms.Milk.I’dliketoxenindyou 

.o tbatyouarcstillunkoath. : 

1 THEWITNESS: Tllankyou 

2 MR.BENNETC Andtlnearenounautlntkdpersons 

.3 prcsentandmhaveaquorum. IstbatccEXzt? 

:4 THE mEPERSON: Yes. We still have a quorum and 

.S tkrearenounauthorkedpa&intkgrandjuryman. 

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1 BY MR. APPERSON: 

2 Q Ithinkwehadanoutstandingquestion. 

3 A Could you repeat the question? 

4 Q I’mnotsure. Lctmesee. IthinkIwasasking 

5 youaboutth:-wewcretryingtopinpointtheconversation, 

6 Ithinkiswfiacwclcftoff,andoncewcpinpointiftbenI 

7 thinktbatit’stheqtioot.hatyouwimttoasszta 

8 privilege oI1. 

9 A Ihadaumversationwithhfr.Lindscyon%hnday 

0 and the natunz of that conversation is privileged. 

1 Q Allright. Anythingelse? Ididn’tmeaatoeut 

2 you off. Is the umversation to which you’rt leferring now 

3 thesamteooversationinwhiehyoud&ussedtbeDrudge 

4 ReportwithMr.Lindsey? 

5 A Itisnot. 

6 Q Okay. It’s a sepamte me. 

7 A It is. 

8 Q Istheconvasationtowhiehyouinte&toasserta 

9 privilege with Mr. Lindsey, did that precede the eonversatio~ 

0 about the Drudge Repoti or did it follow that conversation? 

1 A Followed it. 

2 Q Howlongafk? 

3 A Idon’tkxx)wtbe an.swertothatquestiorl. 

4 Q’ Okay. Andhowdidyoucometohavethe 

5 conversation for which you intend to assert tk privilege 

August 11,1991 

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1 WithhkIkXky? 

2 A HedtbezcalledmeorIpagedhim. 

3 Q Okay. And how long did that conversation last? 

4 A I don’t know. 

5 Q All right. And that conversation was befcn you 

6 talkedtoMr.PodestaaboutMonicaLewinsky~hisefforts 

7 tohelpkonajoborajob recommendation, aXXct? 

8 A khretbedisakcmIhadWithhkhkSaabOUt 

9 hiseffoltsandbefartt.beumvcrsationabou~Iklieve? 

o TiiMagazineandotherthingstbatwcrcgoingcm,totbeir 

I effortstomat&tkstorythatNewswe&wi~wnkingon. 

2 Q okay. hdwithrespecttothecxmv~oatbat 

3 you don’t want to reveal the substance of the amwzsation, 

4 whatprivilfgesareyouassertingwith~ttotbat? 

5 A Attorney-client and executive. 

6 Q Okay. Andwithrespecttotheticmoftbe 

7 executive privilege, is it your understanding that tk 

8 Resident has direct& you to Bssert that privilege? 

9 A He’sdirectedtbattbeprivilegesbeassz%edin 

0 this matter. Yes. 

1 Q Okay. Tellmeabouttbatwithrespezttotk 

2privilegesbeingaSertaiinthismat!er. 

3 A I believe that would be privileged, too. 

4 Q Youdonotknowwhetktheksidenthasdirected 

5 thatthisccmversati~thataprivil~beassziedwith 

Page 54 

1 iespedtothiscopversation? 

2 A Idoknowthathisdkztionswouldcovertbis 

3 ccmversatiou 

4 Q Okay. And how do you know that? 

5 A Well, I don’t know -- I don’t know that I’m in a 

6 position to discuss my conversations with the President with 

7 you about privileges. 

8 Q Okay. We’regoingtogetthatoneinaminute, 

9 too. 

0 A Okay. 

1 Q So other than the executive privilege and 

2 attomey-cliealt privily any others with respcu to this 

3 CoIlV~tion with Mr. Lmdscy? 

4 A No. 

5 Q Okay. And was your ccmvasation with Mr. Lindsey, 

6 didthatentailadiscussioninyouofflicialduticsattbc 

7 White HOUSE as Deputy Counsel to the President? 

8 A Itdid_ 

9 Q Andhisasasimilartitle? 

D AGXECt. 

1 Q All right. With respect to this conversation about 

2 which you’ve assated the privilege, what caused - you don’t 

3 recallwhocalledwhomthatday,butwhat&tbeccmtact 

4 betweeneitberofyouwithrespecttothisamvcnation? 

5 A IthinkalIoftbatwouldbea~axtofthc 

3 A Inotherwords,toanswcrthatquckm,Iwould 

4 havetoanswrr tbe substance of OUT conversation. 

5 Q Okay. I’m not seekingto askthat. Pczhapsyou’rc 

6 right_ Idon’tthinkso. Ltmetrytogotbisway. Did 

7 SJmeth@happenbefolEtheconversationaboutwbichyou 

8 subsequently spobz? Did an event happen, did somebody tell 

9 yousumcth+didyouhavcamceting,didyouhavean 

0 carlktelephotEc?JthatcXsedyoutbaeaftatospeak 

1 with2 A Nothing happened prior to my telephone call with 

3 Ivir.xindsey. 

4 Q Okay. Areyouawareofwktherornotsomething 

5 happened on Mr. Lindsey’s end to cause the conversation to 

6 take plaaz? Witbout respect to what that was. 

7 A Well,ifIwen,tbatalso,Ibelieve,wouldbe 

8 plivileged 

9 Q A&r your conversation with Mr. Lindsey ova wbicb 

10 you’re & the privilege, did yti tknzafk discuss 

:I that amversaticm with anyone else? Any third parties? 

:2 A NotthatIrecall. 

:3 Q What,ifanything,didyoudoasaresultofyour 

:4 cxmversations with Mr. Lindsey? 

.5 A Could you repeat the question? 

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1 Q Wht,ifanythhg,didyoUdoasanzsultofyottr 

2 lxm~tion with Mr. Lindsey? 

3 A Ican’tf~outbowtoanswu that quest+ so 

4 Ictmccansultwithmyattimvzy. 

5 MR. APPERSON: Okay. 

6 (I& witn~!~ was acd to confer with counsel.) 

7 THE FOREPERSON: Ms. Mills, I’d like to remind you 

8 yoUarestilllmdcrc&. 

9 THJzwlTNlSs: l-banks. 

0 h.fR.APPERSON: Andmstillhnvcaquorumandw 

1 unautborkdpasansarep~tiatkgraodjurymcnn. 

2 THE FDREPERSON: l%at is absolutely mt. 

3 BY h4R. APPERSON: 

4 Q AndIthinktbcqwsthtbatwelcftwithwas 

5 w%a~ifanyth&didyoU&uazcsUitofyow 

6 ccnnusation with Mr. Lindsey. 

7 A Iap&wi&Mr.Podc~& 

8 Q AIlright. AndhvsoonafkryoUrconwa-sation 

9 withhfr.LindseydidyuUspc&tohkPodcsta? 

0 A Idoo’tknow. 

1 Q Allright. WbatdidyoUaskhkPodcsta? 

2 A Iakdh4r.PodcstawkhrornothkChrrkbad 

3 askcdhimtoassistmintanofksinlocatingajob. 

4 Q IstbataskstyoUnzallyowuactwonis? 

5 A No,Idon’tlmvcancxactrccolkctioaofth 

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1 umvqsation. 

2 Q Okay. In your question to Mr. Podtsta did you u9t 

3 tktmn”anintem”ordidyouuamea=mewhoyou 

4 unchmodtobeanintemorwhoyouhnvtobeanintem? 

5 A Irecallitbehgsomeone WhohadWadredwithBetty 

6 sodIdoo’tknowwbetberornotIkaewherrrameoraof 

7 didn’tlulowllerIlame,atthatpoint 

8 Q All right. Did Mr. Podesta have any information 

Qaboutthatwha~youaskdhim? 

1 0 A hkPodestaindicatedtbath:hadassistedMonica 

1 1 withgttingajobwithtesp&t.oAm~Richardson. 

1 2 Q Now,isthisconvenation~ithMr.Pode&atbesame 

1 3 onetlxxweufererefeningtoearlier? 

1 4 A Itwaspartofalar@rconvasatioareLarding~- 

1 5 healsodiscuSdthefactthatTiiMagadaewastryingto 

1 6 mat&astorythatNewsweekwasworkingon. 

1 7 Q So is it your recollex%ion that your discussion 

1 8 with Mr. Podesta was initiated by you after Mr. Linw’s 

1 9 phonec%l.l? 

2 :O A Idon’tknowtbeanswertothat,justbecause 

2 .I peoplekindofwmeandgofrommyoffces,soit’squite 

2 .2 plausible that John might have been up in my office and we 

2 ,3 started talking it’s quite plausible that I could have 

2 4 called him, it’s quite plausible that be might have called me 

2 5 tosay,“Youshouldlcoowthat~‘Itwnkiogonastory 

Page 58 

1 R!@diagx.” Anyoftho9carcplausiilcwSysinwhichtkt 

2 couldkvcariscn. 

3 Q Okay. Now, as we’ve gone through rhis matter, with 

4 K!spcctto tk Pod&a collvcSatio~ your Icsxlhtion is ht 

5 indicatcdthcnamMonicatoyouasthc~kklpod? 

6 A Ibclievekdid. Ikkveso. 

7 Q DoyoursallifkindicataIMonicaLminsky? 

8 A Ididn’tknowkrlastnameudl~sowhca 

9 pcnplckptsayingtklastnaxxx,itwasn’tfamiliarrnough 

1 0 withmrokablctogctagrasponwbatitwu,sokmight 

1 1 have, but it was an unusual sough last narm &at it wasn’t 

1 2 soti&ngtbatstuckinmykad. 

1 3 Q All right. Now, with respect to what w&e just 

1 4 gone&roughnow,da!stllisnowrdi?sllyourlrrallstionrrs 

1 5 totkf~ttimcwhmyoukardtknTfauKztoMonica 

1 6Lcwinsh/l 

1 7 A Imean,it’rconc&vabletktksaidMoPica 

1 8 Lminsky. Ifyouaskmwh&crcrnotIhavca~lkctiom 

1 9 ofitinlbatway,uo. TkfvsttimcItm&sbxdhunamc 

2 0 andun&stoodwboskwaswbenhfr.Jadsnindicakdtktk 

2 .l kdtitogctajob forkx. 

2 2 Q Okay. Now,sowbenyousubsqumtlykdtk 

2 3 discussion with Mr. Jordan and k zfauuxd Monica Lr.vinsky, 

2 !4 you had akady had your convcrsatian with Mr. Pocks* 

1 !5 conut? 

Page 5! 

1 A Ibdieveso. 

2 Q Andycntn&tktunmcctioa. 

3 A Tbat’owkrtIbdicvcitldndofclickod,atkast 

4 inmybrain,t&ttbiswasrparticularindividuaL 

5 Q Okay. Didyouhavc~ydi~~~sionswithMr.Jor& 

6 unamingyourkno&dgcofMr.Po&~ta’rcfMs~k+ 

7 himicaLcwil&witb8job? 

8 A No. 

9 Q Didh4r.Po&smnlatctoyourMr.Etowks’,EGxkinc 

0 Bow&, invotit in sssistillg Monica Lcwinsb to obte a 

1 jabaajobrcfauxz? 

2 A NottbatIncaIL 

3 Q Do you ruzall having discussions with Mr. Pod&a 

4 xamningaDn@cRrporfaodIdonotknowifit’stk 

5 sameoneot~butaDn+RcgnttotbcdEcttkt6 wGchkdxcpu&tkth5onicaL&nskyhadcomctotkVihitc 

7 Hausc after midnight Q1 numuous occasions? 

8 A Iknowtbattbzcwacocwsrcpoztstothat&ct. 

9 I’m sun - it’s quitc possible that * wue at that time 

0 puiodandIdiscussaltkmwitbJohti,butIce&dy 

1 ~bczncwsrcportstotkteffcctanddiscus&itwith 

2 pa+. 

3 Q Okay. Doyounzall~Mr.Podcstaorotkrs 

4 tktthosexpoewacfidse7 

5 A Imcan,it’sq&cplausiilc,aftcx~bavchcr 

ptge 6C 

1 WAvErecords,tokablctorcvicwtkWAVExuxxds~ 

2 &twhattbcy~tokablctokvcsaidtbat. Idon’t 

3 tneullyknow. 

4 Q Okay. Wkr~doyouxrcalln&wing+pason@ 

5 r&cwin&Ms.Lcw&ky’sWAVEruxa&? 

6 A Wha~y~~allsubpccnatdthem. 

1 Q Andappmximatclywfrnwastbat? 

B A Idon’tknow. Wk8xxdatcyoursubpoautis.m 

9 wouldgoaboutwtrkiug~tryandk~i~ 

0 Q okay. Youkdaotxev&aitkmnscariyastk 

1 1714wk5youhudtkdiscussionwithIvIr.Podcsta? 

2 A Ikdnot 

3 Q Wouldyoukvckdanyotbzwaytoknowmtk 

4 17tbwk&crcCnotrqxn%?tktMonicnLminskykdviskd 

5 tkWhitcHouscafemidni&tonmmnuus occ&alswan~ 

6crMt7 

7 A WcJl,Ikdnotkard&ekindsofrcpdttsuoti 

B aftutk17th. Pricxtotk~tkz~kdboenmoccasia~ 

9 wbzConewsor&z.&nwasn+ntingthaturaamcwllo~ 

3 wakingatDODhadvMaItbcWhiteHousequitclatca 

1 qukCarlyonclnanin& Iikthnram.imdtkyhada 

2 pueulardatc. Inr&cwing tkmatEialsmlatIxltotbat 

3 da+itbaxnccla3rtbatwt4ocxzkdmedcthisrcportwaa 

4 taIkingaboutNicolcBaxuRodbam+whoistkwifcoftk 

5 FM Lady’s brat&. 

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1 Q m%“L 

2 A Sothecxtaxtthatsomcmc hadtbosekiridofDcws 

3 reports, I would bavc indicated that that would have bez 

4 haccuratc. 

5 Q Okay. With respect to 8 parcid~ dart. 

6 A Yes. Tkybadapahculardate. 

7 Q ~d~[~~~~~~~~WA~ 

SrBxrds. 

9 A Ibokalatartainnsadstobcabk:to&uminc 

0 whohfsdtivuiattbat~ 

1 Q Okay. &1you~callJanuary2lst,th:Washiogton 

2 Post story ftrs mahoning h&&a Lmrinsky bnz&hg? 

3 A Izcalltbat Yes. 

4 Q An:youawarcofakkplxmecalltknightbcforc 

5 orthatnightfiomtbcFMsidmttoMr.Lindsyaftcr 

6 midnight? 

7 A Idon’tknowifIwasawarcattktimqbutI’m 

8 ~a~n~~~~~of~~~s~‘~ 

9 bcalworlciqwinrcsponsetoyolrinvcstigatiorl. 

0 Q Okay. I’msorry,youaacnotawamatthtimcor 

1 you’re not catainl 

2 A I~‘tknowifIwasawarcattbctimc. 

3 Q Okay. what do you now know about that telephone 

4 call? 

5 A Well,anytbingtbatIwwldknowaboutthat 

Page 62 

1 telephone call probably would be su&jed to privikge. 

2 Q AU right. Did you have a conversation with 

3 h4r. Lindsey concerning the telephone call? 

4 A I don’t have a recQLlecti01l of doing so. 

5 Q Doyourecallhavingadiscussionwithtbe 

6 Residentcon cen>betelephonemlltcMr.Lii 

7 A No. 

8 Q DoyourecalladiscussionwiththeF~Lady 

9 about the telephone call with Mr. Lindsey? 

D A No. 

1 Q Whendidyouleamofthetelephonecallfromthe 

2 Resident to Mr. Lindsey? 

3 A Idon’thow. Itwouldhavebeensometimea!k 

4 it occur& probably. 

5 Q I’mjusttryingtogexanxord. Youhfxia 

5 discussianwhichyouwanttoassutaprivikgeon7 A ~~~~~~~? 

3 Q Concerning the existezxe of the telephane call, tbc 

? factthctekphonecallhadbem~. 

3 A Myunderstandingrqardiqatelephonecallbeing 

I made is not derived from conversati~ with individuals. 

z Q ~I’rn~t~I~~dhow~ 

3 privilcgc--Ithoughtyouhadsug@aithat4 A No,wehavereurdsandotkrmakriakt.hatwe 

5 havchadtoproduccandatso~vchadto~with 

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1 rqecttayourinvest@tioDandIbclicvealloftbatis 

2 partofourwcrrkpnduct. 

3 Q 1st~. Allright. Soyourknowkdgcoftk 

4 telephonecaIlisaresuitofareviewofdoamntsor 

5 reuxds. IstbatcQrfect? 

6 A That’s conect, but it’s aztainly the case &at I 

7 ~d~~~~~~.~~i~ fdcm’tbavca 

8 nx&xtiouofqeakingtoMr.Lindszyaboutit 

9 Q Okay. Allright. AndwitbreSpeatothcnxords 

0 thatyounzkazedtogiveyouthatinformatiqyouwarltto 

1 asertawarkproductprivilcgcwithnspxXtothat? 

2 A W~y~~~ve~of~~~Id~‘t 

3 ~ow~~~~d~~~~~~~~ 

4 wouldn’t know. 

5 Q Well, &at may lx. I’m just simply asking - 

6 A Okay. Ijustdidn’twautyoutobclievetbereweze 

7 additionaIKcordstbat~not--ncordstbatweIladta 

8 forwardwi&nxpc#totbenqueststbatyouallha~madc 

9 to the offke. 

0 Q Okay. Iappnziatcthat. ~ut’withmspectto 

1 tileltxordswllichyourwiewedtoimpartknow~ofthe 

2 ~~~~~y~~~c~ap~~~~~ 

3 totbat? 

4 A Apri~withmspastomymentalimpxssions 

5 wirhrespecttothat. Yes. 

Pageb 

1 Q okay. ~~p~~~~? 

2 A Workproduct Attorncy+lient. 

3 Q Okay. Let’sgo--1’Ilgiwzyouaminutctotakc 

4 your notes. 

5 AYU&.S. 

6 Q Okay_ Have you ever bad discussions with tbe 

7 PreSident wncerniag the I’mside&% &tionsbip with Monica 

BIB&sky? 

9 A Yes. 

3 Q Okay. How many such discussions have you bad with 

1 theI%-esibt? 

1 A I~‘t~~~~~~~~. 

3 Q Aliri$tt. Approximatelyhowmaay,asbestyoucan 

)tCUlll? 

5 A Asapmcti~matta, wixxvexth!sRc5i&altis 

5 pmparingtOqmkpublicly,wbcnevatbar:~issucsW 

I webavetoLlrkksqwheacvcr ~~P~~~~ 

3 tobedisc~rhosean:all-inwhichsince 

3 itdatcstothisinvcstigatim~Moni~LGwinskyof 

1 issues&tedtothatin~onariseandthosewouldbe 

I thecuntextinwhichIwouldbcbavingdkussions. 

t Q Okay. ~itf~~~y~a~~of~ 

b President’s relatitip with Mot&a kwinsky would be a 

I fairly-amoRnamnv arcaofdiscussionthatwouldtak 

5 placeonfcwumcctiqs? 

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1 A I gvss it’s possible. 1 mfaeocing Mr. Breuer’s ~llectioos of matings I think 

2 Q Allright. DoyourexxllaJanuary31stor 2 Iprobablyseehimooa~frequentbasissotbeydoo’t 

3 February 1st meeting in the Oval Office with yourself, 3 standoutinmymindintbesamway. 

4 Mr. Ruff, Mr. Lindsey and others? 4 Q Okay. AE you familiar with Mr. Breuer’s - 

5 A Yes. 5 A Yes. 

6 Q Okay. whatdoyouredaboutthatmetiog? 6 Q -prepared stakE.&Ibtlicvt,besubmittedto 

7 A hpartidaf,wbatarcyOUasking? 7 tk Ofh of Indepahnt CQunxl? 

8 Q Tellmewhoelsedoyounxallbeingtheze,Igue~ 8 A I’mfamiliarwithhisde&ration,ifthat’swhat 

9 wouldbeourstart. 9 youk speak@ witb respect to. 

.O A Ixe..memberMr.Ruffbeingtbere. Iremember 10 Q Okay. IthinkthezwasakoaprevioussUement 

1 Mr.Lindszybeingtbere. And1 remanbaMr.B~beiIlg II in March. Were you familiar with that? 

2 there. ‘Ikemayhavebeenotherattorneystlxze,butI I2 A Yes,Iwas. I’mnotfamiliarwithitnow. 

3 don’t recall. 1 I3 Q O~Y. 

4 Q Okay. Do you realemberifAxmLmiswasprestnt L4 A InMarchIwas,butIcouldo’ttellyouwhat’sin 

5 there? I IS it today. 

6 A Idonotrec&Annhwisbeingp~tforthat 1 I6 Q Allright Iguesstkbestwaytodoit,you’ve 

7 dkussion,buttherearetypicallyoccasionswberethe 1 17 indicated you had a number of discussions with the Presidaxt 

8 President is beii briefed in preparation for public 1 18 concerning tk relationship betweeo himself and Monica 

9 availabilities in which be likely may get questioos from I 19 Ifwinsky. 

!O pressandthosewouldbeoccasiooswhereakothexmaybe : t0 A Actually,whatIindicatedwasIhadhadan~ 

!I members of the President’s cQmmu.nications team preseot like : !l of conversations with the President in the context of 

!2 ArmLewis. I 

. !2 preparing him for press availabilities, addrssing matters 

13 Q Allright. AndMichaelMcChny? : !3 thatariseoutoftbislitigation,aswe~asotherinstanas 

14 A Yes. He’s another person in communications that : !4 whehe’sseekingadviceorguidancefkanme,Iwould 

!5 might be present. : ks 

Page 66 Page 68 

1 Q Okay. Withxspecttotbismeeting,whatwasthe 1 have political advice. And in t.bse instances. discussions 

2 purpose of this meeting? 2 lwelekititoMonicaLcwinskyandtilismattcr. 

3 A To provi& advict and guidance with wt to the 3 I don’t know that I could tmhfully chmracti 

4 President’s preparation for - I believe at that time, be was 4 thanontwayoranotbfxasabouthisrclatio~pwithMonica 

5 going to have several interviews. 5 LWillSky. 

6 A JUROR: I’m sorry, could you keep your voice up a 6 Q Okay. Withxcspccttobothoftbosetypcsof 

7 little bit? 7 discussions that you bad with tk. Prcsidaxt that you’ve just 

8 TxEWlTNESs: sure. 8 idaltifiil3rcyouassatingaprivikgcwitbrcspccttoau 

9 A JUROR: ‘hnkyou. 9 cooMsations in both catcgorks? 

0 THE WITNESS: You’re welcolfx?. 1 0 A Thtsazodcatcgarybcing? 

1 BY MR. APPERSON: I 1 Q Wdl,Ithinkyoujustoutlkditasaa3hgyour 

2 Q Allright. Andwhatwasdiscussedattbatmeeting 1 2 kgal advice. 

3 with respeCt to the PnSident’s relati~p witb Monica 1 3 A Andininstanccs~m~preparinghimfor 

4 hwinsky? 1 4 public availabilitk? 

5 A Ibelievethatwouldbeamatterthatiscoveredby 1 5 Q Tbat’swlmtIhadun&stocdyoutobcsuggsting. 

6 attorney-client and executive privilege and I’m assert& the 1 6 A Okay. Iftboscarctbttwoca@o+syou’rc 

7 privilege. 1 7 spmking of, w yes. okay. 

8 Q All right. And the discussions that you had with 1 8 Q Okay. Aretbacanyothmcatcgorkstbatwould 

9 thePresi&ntatthatmeetingwere- 1 9 &scribe your discussioas with tk! PKsidaJt a rvlonh 

0 A which me&iq axe you referencing? 2 10 L&nsky was discussed? 

1 Q I’mxury,the31storFebruarylstm&ing. 2 :1 A No,Ithinktlmtprobablywuldcovertbttypmof 

2 A Okay. habead. 2 :2 cxmawiollsdlat~wouldhsvc~tbisma~would 

3 Q All right. Are you clear iu your mind? 2 :3 ariseintbatcontcxt 

4 A Well, I don’t have sped& recok&ms of all my 2 :4 Q Okay. Andwithrapazttobothtype~of 

5 intuacti~ with the PEsident. I know that you’re probably 2 :5 I)- eonvusatioIls, you bad your discwioo with tki PKsidcnt 

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1 izl yur official duties at the White House. Is that 1 h4RAPPER!%ON: Thankyou Andtkwitncssisunck 

2 arrect? 2 Oath? 

3 A That’s comt. 3 THE FOREPERSON: Ys. 

4 Q All right. Did you ever have a personal 4 MR. APPERSON: Still un&r oath? Thank you. 

5 armnatioo with the Resident without anyooc else present 5 BY MR. APPERSON: 

6 W~h4olliCaLcwinskywaS-? 6 Q Andmhdrquc5tiooyouwaegoing0MIISuit 

7 A It’s quite possible. 7 witllcounsdon. 

8 Q Doyouhaveanyrecoketionofhavingsucha 8 A Right &uldyoutestatett~~qwation? 

9 EEUiXlg? 9 Q Okay. Iwasahidyou’dasktbat 

0 A No, but I speak to the President regularly, so it’s I 0 A Sony. 

1 quite possible that I did 1 1 Q IthinkIasbxiyouabouttkconractsyoubadwirh 

2 Q Did you have any discussioos with the Fii Lady 1 2 tbt Pm&cut’s outsi& lam with xespozt to tk Paula 

3 mrcwingMtiCaLewinsky? 1 3 Jones litigation. 

4 A Nottomy b0dedge. 1 4 A Ithinktbatanyofmydiscussionswiththc 

5 Q Did you have dkussim with Mr. Kantm, Mickey 1 5 Prcsidatt’s paxmal attorneys would have brm for tbc 

6 Kantor, wnceming the President’s r&tiooship with Monica 1 6 purposcsofplwidingkgnladvicca.s~culitigati~ 

7 Lewinsky? 1 7 Stralegy0IltkWdLY.l ofprivilegssothosc 

8 A Ispeakwithh!k&‘&tMratxiotheraaclmeys 1 8 convusaticm.~ would be wvuul by attorney-cl&t privikgc, 

9 ho represent tk Pres&nt in his petxmal capacity 1 9 SSWlltlSCXCCUtivcprivilcgc. 

0 fairly regularly regarding JJlatWs that arise out of this 2 0 Q Okny. Andwithxspccttootbcriawyusintk 

1 imstigation and so I have had umversatioos with him and 2 1 OfficcoftlxCotmsdb3thcRsidax~haveyoubadsimilar 

2 with other attoroeys that represeat the Pzsident in his 2 2 discussions ovcz vhicb you wish to assut privikgc? 

3 pmmal capacity with respect to those kinds of issues. I 2 3 A Yes. 

4 doo’t know that I would &rack them as the President’s 2 4 Q Andnotpmvidctknatuteoftboscconvcrsations? 

5 relationship with Monica Lewimky. 2 5 A That’s conux 

Page ?A 

Q Okay. Andwbatprivilcgcdoyouwishtoassut 

witb Kspcct to tboS calSu!4a~? 

A Attomcy-clkt and aaxttivc privikge. 

Q Andbaveyouhuddiscussionswithwitnustswbo 

you undastood to be witlKsscs in tk Office of Indepaldatt 

counsel investigation wh you have discussed the issue of 

the Itlationsbip bctwaz~ th Resident and Monica L.cwinsb or 

contacts bctwca~ tk hident and Monica Levi&y? 

t A IkapbavicgaproblanwithtbcOerm 

11 “relationhip,” but I &ink - 

1 Q That’s wby I ad&xl “contacts.” I thou&t that 

1: would solve it 

1: A Idon’tknowthatIhadthosckindsof 

11 convaxations. llypicaIly to tbc cxtutt that I’ve had 

1: convasatiozlswitll~uals*mrcwitncsaesillthis 

I( matk7,ittraditionaRyariscsintk.c4m&xtoftkif 

1’ sukingadviceandguidanawithrcspccttoprivi&c 

II assations. 

l! Q Okay. Atxiyour~lkctionofanydiscussionsyou 

2( hadwithpazumsyottmKkzsU& %UCtitlXSSCS~tIKlybC 

2: witnesiutbeinvutigatiooyouwouldcharacrcliacallof 

z tktl as you’vcjust stati 

2: 

2’ 

2! 

Page 70 

Q Okay. How would you cbaractuizc tkzn? 

A Issues that ark out of this investigation. 

Q Allright. Dothy includctkPtrsicknt’s 

ldationship with Monica lmVinsky7 

A I don’t know how to address that chamcterization. 

soit’scertainlythtcascthatinaddrtssingissusthat 

aisc out of you all’s inquiries in other matters that we 

se& information to try and be rcsponsivc as well as to 

provide appropriate kgal advice. 

Q Okay. Have you had discussions with Mr. htar and 

atber nrembas of tbz President’s private lawyers with xespcct 

mmCPaulaJoncscasc? 

A CanItalktomylawyuforasccond? 

MR. APPERSON: Sure. 

THE FOREPERSON: Actually, now would be a logical 

tirctotakeatcemiuutcbre&. 

MR. APPERSON: Okay. 

THEWITNESS: Thankyou. 

(Witness cxcusal. Witness raalloi) 

THE FOREPERSON: Ms. Mills, I’d like to xznind you 

you’re still under o&l_ 

THEWITNESS: Thankyou. 

THEi FOREPERSON: Mr. Appenon, I’d like to make you 

a~xrcthatmdobaxaquaum andthaeatcnotmaut&xkd 

pozpkinthcgrandjuryroan. 

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Q Okay. Andwitbregpeatotkqucstionsmwould I 

sskyou~s.yourcomusa~widtauchpcnans,wwkiycu I 

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I assut a privilege and decline to pmvick the inf~nnation of 1 Q Okay. hdhowdoy~assistinidentifyiqsuch 

2 those ConVersatiW? 2 counsel? 

3 A Tothebestofmyrc&lecticm. Imc=,Ican’t 3 A hinstanceswbereyou~haveindicatedtba! 

4 xecall tbe different individuals who have cxmsulted with OUT 4 thexeissolnfzbadytbatyouwaottospeakto,~ttyatatl 

5 offraqardingthirpsniculartestimonyasitmight 5 expeditious basis to identify individuals that would be 

6 relatetoissues&tedtoprivilcge,butmybest 6 prcpaled to represent fedeml employees in this matta. 

7 Rx&zti~withrespccttothosekindsofamversations 7 Q Andwhatistbetiva.seofpersonsfmmwbomyou 

8 wouldbetlleirnt!edfcrgui~fromour0fficewith~ 8 draw to reccrmmcnd counsel for White Hous employq for 

9 totkktestimooy. 9 c.xamp4whoanzcallaiaswi~? 

I 0 Q Andaccordiugly- 0 A Idon’tknowthatkreisaparticularuniverse, 

1 1 A And I would ass-t a privilege. 1 ot&rthantypic2illywcarcsxkingindividualswhoworkin 

I 2 Q - you would assex a privilege. 2 the District of Columbia so tkrc’s not additional legal fees 

1 3 A Attorney-client privilege and executive privilege. 3 for the person’s transportation to D.C. 

1 4 Q Allright. Withrespectto~uD-XlforsuCb 4 Q Okay. Do you maintain a list of potahl counsel 

1 5 witnesses,areyouassemngprivilegewithrespecttotbat 5 in the Wbite House counsel’s o&e for such purposes? 

1 6 Ornot? 6 A No. 

1 7 A IbekvetbatwastheamathatatoDetime 7 Q Doyoumainta.inaninfiilistofsuchcounsel? 

1 8 Mr.I3reuerhadacxrtedphilegeandthtithdnzwthat, 8 A No. 

1 9 but that’s my nxollectia 9 Q Areyouawareofhvyusc@ingyouorotkr 

2 !O Q Mr.Bnmerbasadifferentnatumofcontactswith 0 personsintbeWbiteHousecounsel’soffketoindicatethat 

2 !I outside lawyers than I traditionally do. Traditionally, 1 they would like to provide this service for lhential 

2 12 outsi&lawyenarecxmtactingmewithrespbcttotheKlleed 2 Witoessa? 

2 3 for guidance regarding privilege and so it would fall into 3 A No. 

2 !4 thesamecategoryasindiscussionswithrespecttothe 4 Q Nolawyerhasevacalledyouandsaid”I’dliktto 

2 !S witl3esSx. 5 getont.tlelistorumsidemdfarrefen.altowi~”? 

Page 74 i 

Q Okay. And ha= yuu had such discussioa with 

4xxln.4 for tk vaxious witWsSs? 

A Yes. 

Q A IL~~KZ of witnc~~? 

A Yes. 

Q Allright. Soyou~~:assrhagapri~titb 

rspazt to tlxxc convcrsatials as Well. wllik we’re on the 

identification of witnessa and cour4 for WhSXS, 

witbout lWaliog ccnlyQsBtioos you’ve had with panicular 

1 witncaasortkircounsdtitistkpnicticcintk 

1 officcof~lcounsclsina~~beginniogofthtOfficcof 

1 xn~tCouasclillvstigationastoidal~or 

1 pmvidingcounsclforpuKmswlloyouundastaodmeybe 

1 witncs~orbavc~caIkdaswitDcsscsiatk 

1 investigation? 

1 A Because in this investigation - fatal aupbyos 

1 artcntitkd to rcprscntah by tkir agrocka. In this 

1 palticular investigation, tbzy arc not catitkd to 

1 rcprtscntation by tbc white House. 

2 JDklSt8QUSWherctkkegcnCyiSrrotpamittcdtO 

2 rqmat ban, tbc Justice wt typically would 

2 repKsaltthaniatllismattp. Tbyalsoarenotian 

2 position to have the Department of Jthcc q-t than. 

2 Aadsowabaveassistaitbdnwithidmtifjhg~~can 

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Q Allright. Amyouawareofothtxs,anyoneelsein 

the White House counsl, receiving such calls? 

A I guess it’s plausible, though typically in lots of 

instaaoes since they’re representing people with reSpect to 

the Justice Department reimbursuixn tlatcof$99aabour, 

there’s not genemlly a lot of volunteers. 

Q Are you awaxe of any volunteczs? 

A It’s quite plausible. I mean, obviously, tlxre are 

people~oarccivicmindedandwe~~~tbat,butI 

perxmaUyhavenot~inapositionwbczepaoplc’bave 

volunteered to me. 

Q AzeyouawareofauytestintkWhiteHouse 

counsel’s office to detetmine a particular lawya’s 

sensitivities before B that they represe& a 

patticularwitnes? 

A !hsitivitiestowhat? 

Q Idon’tknow. Sensitivitiestoanything. Isthat 

adiscusionorconsiderationthatyou’rcawamofintbe 

cQuIlsel’s office? 

A No. We’re obviously looking for people who have 

hadpreviousexpea-hcedealingwithmattezsliketkse,but 

ap@froratbat,Bo. 

rqKcsaltdnninthisma~. 

Q Okay. Do you recall appmximateiy January 19th 

discusdonswithBettycurriecancaniag krneedfora 

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II re: Grand Jury Proceedings Mlllti-Pllgp August 11,1998 

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lawyer? 

A Yes. 1 rememberthatBettyCunieisoneoftbe 

peoplcthatIa&stedwithXspecttocounsel. 

Q okay. Did you amtact ba or did she contact you? 

A Idon’trecalI. Ita&toBettycunie&tivcly 

frequently. she’s a friend of mine, so it would have ti - 

it could have happened eik way. 

Q Okay. But you have no recollection of which way it 

happeoed? 

A No. I mean, I guess she probably became aware of 

herneedforalawyerpriortomebecomingaware,soshe 

probably would have talked to me. 

Q Okay. But you’re speculating on that? 

A_ 

Q Youdon’thavearecollection? 

ACorrect 

Q Okay. And I want to ask you about your discus&~ 

8 withherccmazmingherneedforalawyer. Isthatamattfz 

9 over which you are a.ssehg prkikge? 

0 A Yes. 

1 MR_ APPERSON: Okay. 

2 BY MR. BARGER: 

3 Q What privilege? 

0 A Attorney-client. 

5 MR. APPERSON: I thooght we had covered that - 

Q 

A 

Q 

Page 78 

THE WITNESS: And executive privilege. Right. 

MR. APPERSON: - on the genaal discussion before. 

BY MR. APPERSON: 

soyou’reassertingbothwithrespXttothat? 

Yes. 

Executive and -- all right. Who came to represent t 

Ms. Curie? 

A I believe Larry We&&r came to represent 

Ms. Currie. 

Q AlI rig&. Have you had discussions with 

Mr. Wechskr ckeming his representation of Ms. Cunie? 

A Yes,withnpecttoawnversationinparticular 

regarding assxtions of priviIqg. 

Q AU right. Did you have discussions with 

Mr. Wecbsler concerning Betty Cunie’s testimony before the 

grand jury as part of this invest&km? 

A There was a conversation over which I would 

ordimuily have asserted privilege because it came in the 

context of his seeking guidana regding whetk or not we 

wished to assert a privilege ova her conversations with the 

President, but I understand that Lanny has testified about 

thatandhedidspeaktousonanoccasioarr%ardingher 

testimonywithlespecttoc0nversationsshehadwiththe 

president, I b&eve, on tbe Sunday after the President’s 

&position. 

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Page 79 

Q Allright. Wastkea-I’msony,Iheardyou 

indicate you would normally assat tbe privilege, but 

Mr.Brcuerhaddoneit. Artyousuggtstingthatbetestifi~ 

tothatinadveztentlyandyouaUfeelnowconstk&to 

assertitorA No. ImeanI’mnotgoingtoasseztitintbefaa 

ofhishavingrelaycd,Ithink,tbe~~andso,no, 

I would answerqtionswithrespecttoifIguess. 

Q Okay. Butwasadezisionmadeinthecounsel’s 

office or by the President with zspect to this particular 

convasation not to assert the privilege, though you felt you 

could appropriately? 

A ‘IhcamvenatioowithMr.Wechslerisa 

coova.sation that appropriately could and should have been 

tbt assertion of a privilege. 

Q Myquestionis -1unkstaudthataadItake 

that-giventbatfact_wastbereade&ionmadeaotto 

assutt.kpfivil~tithrtspecttothatconnrsationthough 

youcould? Wasadecisionevermadenottoasszttbe 

plivilege? 

A With respect to Mr. Brcua and my conversation with 

Mr. we&la? 

Q Yes. 

A No. 

Q DidyoueverdiscusstithMs.Curriedkctlyher 

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kstimonyinthegrandjury? 

A Well, if I did., I believe that would be the subject 

of a privilege. 

Q Itmaybe,butIwanttoestablishifthereissuch 

a conversation. I’m not asking you -- 

A I don’t have particular recollections of 

conversations in that regard, but I’m quite co&dent to the 

extfntthattherewezeissuesorquestionstbatshehad,I’m 

apersonthatsheIikelywouldtalktoabouttkm. 

Q Eventhoughshehadherownattorneys? 

A Itwouldn’taaffsarilybeaboutpersetk 

substgnccofkrt&imonyasmuchmoreabouttheproccss. 

Q Okay. Doyounxallevuhavingadkussionwith 

his.0mieabouttksubstimceofherkstimonybeforethe 

grandjlpy? 

A I’m OX&I it’s possible that I have. I don’t 

have a particular recollection of doii so, but I’m aztain 

it’s possible that I have. 

Q Okay. IfIcandirectyourattentiontoJanuary 

24tb,didyouhaveoc&ontopageMs.0x&? 

A I’msureIdid I~Ipageh4s.Cunie 

fnquently, so I don’t know that it would have surprised me 

ifIpagcdha. 

Q Okay. Do you recaU approximately that time period 

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Page 81 

1 WhiteHousc? 

2 A Ididn’treakesbewasabsentfiomtheWhitt 

3 Houszatthattimeperiod. 

4 Q Okay. Wbmdidyouleamthatshebadbeenabsent 

5 fromtheWbiteHouse? 

6 A Itbinktkrewasaperiodoftimewkrethenms 

7 ~~charactaizingherasbeingabsentframtheWhite 

8 House. Atkastitwasmyunderstaa;dingthatshehadbeea 

9 requested to provide infomlaticm to your Office. 

0 Q Okay. ~youk~owwhetherOrwtshehadmctwith 

1 agents of the office of tk Indepcndeat CounSl approximate\ 

2 January 24th or not? 

3 A Idon’tknowifIknewthenOrshortlytbereafta. 

4 Q Okay. DoyourecallpaginghaonoraboutJ~uary 

5 24? 

6 A No. 

7 Q DoyourecaUapage-didMs.Cuniehaveapager 

8 whichallowsforamessagetobekertedandsent? Toyour 

9 knowledge? 

0 A Yes. Yes. 

1 Q Ail right. And would you often include a mesqge 

2 when you paged Ms. Currie? 

3 A Oh,yes. 

4 Q AIlright. DoyounxaUsendingamessageto 

5 Ms.Cutrieonthe24thstatiq”Cbeckingoayou. ‘ihhkiq 

Page 82 

1 abut you. Page me if you nad me. CD. Mills. X0X0X0.” 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Docsthatringabell? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q Allright. Docsitsoundastboughitwas 

6 approximatciy that date, on tbc 24th? 

7 A Ifthat’stbcdatetbat-ifyouhavc-mypagp8 fecordsdatcsthatmSmdpagrS,sowlxltcvcrdaywokldbc 

9 rcfkctalwouldo&kiybcthcdatcthattbcpagtwas 

0 sax. 

1 Q Okay. And you wouldn’t dispute tbt that was tk 

2 pkpcrrcfkztiollofwllalyousenttbcpa8e. 

3 A Oh,no. Right. h&n-bmm. 

4 Q Okay. Doyounxallwhattimeofdayyoupagai 

5 kz? 

6 A No. Butmypagzmfkcts7 Q OLay. Iftkpqurefkctai-you’xeabesdof 

8 me. Iftbcpaguxr&cteda9:18pm.call,wouldtbt 

9 souodasthoughtbatwnsbappcncdontbatdate? 

0 A Yes. Imc~~,otxpagersystcmisusuallyp~ 

1 accurate in that regard 

2 Q Okay. Why did you page ha on that occasion? 

3 A Idon’trccall. Idoa’tknowifthatwasbefortor 

4 aftcxIhadalrcadyhaddiscussionswitihergardiaga 

:5 lawyaMdIkpmtbatyouall~s&ingtospcaktober. 

Pagem August 11, 1991 

Page 8: 

1 Butifitisintbatthrhme,that’slikcwbatIwWhave 

2beenp@43krabout. 

3 Q Okay. Howdidyoukaowtbatwewuesxkingto 

4 tauctoher? 

5 A Idon’tknowthatIdid I’monlygivingmybert 

6 information kcause i don’t have a W&k 

7 recolltxtioninmymind,butIknewatsampoint&enc&x 

8 anattomeyandIknewatsomepointsbewasgoingtospcak 

9 withyollallbxauseIbelievetllatyouallhadissucdr 

IO subpomatokrtotalktoher. 

11 Q Okay. Hadyouakadyhadthedkussionti 

I2 Ms.Cu+Ithinknnit&ateditwasclosetothc19r& 

13 about getting a lawyer? 

14 A Okay. 

IS Q Isthat16 A 1didn’tkaowthedateofgettingalawya;butif 

17 that’s_ifthatisthecase,tbenIwouldbaveknownthat 

i8 sbewa~g~ingtoneedtotestify. 

,9 Q Okay. Did you know who her lawyers were ar that 

!O time,ontbc24th? 

!l A Yes. I’mcertain-Iassiskdinhelpingbergct 

!2 herlawyer. 

!3 Q Okay. DidyoumakeanyattempttocaU 

!4 Ms.currie’slawyeronthatsamedayiIiadditionto 

!5 pagingher? _- - 

Prge 84 

1 A It’s perfectly conceivable that i might have. 

2 I don’t have a particular recolIe&m of &ii so. 

3 Q Okay. Canyouthinkofwhyyouwoukinotbavt 

4 attemptedtoaYQtacttl.leIawyer,berlawycr,withreqx.ct 

5 tothesanxmazte?thatyollwezeattemptingtoc4mtact 

6 Ms.Currieabout? 

7 A Well, could you read my page again? 

8 Q Sure. ‘Qleckingonyou Thinkiqabwtyou 

_____-___ 

9 Page. me if you need M. C.D. MiIis. XUXWXU.” 

0 A We~,Iwasn’trealIythbkingofherhnvyeror 

1 ckckingonhcrlawyerandIdon’tbavetksamcaffti 

2 forhzrlawyerbecauseIdon’tha~apasonalxel~~ 

3 withbim,soIprobablywouldn’thavtcontadedher~ 

4 withthatmessage.” 

5 Q AIlright_ HavcyouevuspolcentoJe~Jedcsaa 

6aboutkttyCurrie? 

7 A No. 

8 Q AreyouawanzofJesseJaebm’sefbttoccmtact 

9 Ms.Cuniethatsamcdayonthe24th? 

!O A Iwasnotawareofitattbetime. 

!l Q Did you subsequently become aware of that? 

!2 A Yes. 

13 Q Whmdidyoubecomeawareofthat? 

!4 A kcentIy. 

!5 Q HaveymeverhadadkcussionwiththcRevarnd 

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1 Q Wbywasityou~eotooktbeefkttosortofpay 

2 attentiontowklttbeDnldgeReportwassaying? 

3 A %ll,asapracticalmattex,themediacurrently 

4 repoltsmanythingstbatmightnotbenecessarilysourcedas 

s wellastbeymij$thaveinthep&andtbeIXudgeReport 

6 oftenissomethingwhichtbemediawillworkoffoforso~ 

7 off of. 

8 Q And,asapossibleexampleoftbattypeoftbing, 

9 doyoureGllliutbesummer of’97thattheDmdgeReport 

o issuedsamekindofana&leaboutKatbknWii 

I A IbsditXtbey~yindiCatedthat-Was 

2 workingooauarticleaboutGthkmWilley. 

3 Q Andtbat’sptiortotheNewsweekarticle~ 

4 out. 

5 ACorrect. 

6 Q Asbestyou~~&,doyounxalliftheDnrdge 

7 Report came out in or about July of 1997? 

8 A IthinkitwasJuly. Ithinkitwastheendof 

9 July. 

0 Q Inthattimeperi4doyou~tak&3with 

1 anyoneabout-we&letmeaskitthisway. Doyouruxll 

2 thattbeDrudgeRepothadanattic~asyoumefltiooed7tbat 

3 talked about or conaxxd KathleenWiilley? 

4 A Yes,IbelieveitreferencedthefactthatNewsweek 

5 wasworkingooanakleaboutMs.willey. 

Pw 90 

1 Q Did you discuss with anyone in or about July of 

2 1997 that Drudge Report? 

3 A I’msureIdid. 

4 Q Doyoureeallwithwhomyoudiscussedthereport? 

5 A No, but I’m sure I discussed it with a fair number 

6 of people. 

7 Q -YOU.=YY~-, isitfairtoassumeor 

8 woulditbeaccuratetoassume that that would include Bruce 

9 Lindsey? 

3 A Sure. 

I Q And how about the private attorneys for the 

z Presidcrit? Specifically, Mr. Kendall and Mr. Jkmett. 

3 A Not likely Mr. Bennett. 

4 Q More likely Mr. Ikndall? 

5 A Quite possible Mr. Kendall. 

5 Q DoyounxallbeforttheNewsweekarticlccamout 

7 butaftertheDrudgekportcameoutinJulyof’97,doyou 

s R!cautal&lganystepstogatheranyinformatiooabout 

3 Kathleen Wiiey? 

3 A Ididoot. 

I Q I’m sony, you did not? 

2 A No. 

3 Q Do you have any knowledge of anyone else taking 

4 stepstogatberi&matiooaboutKathknW~ Andwhat 

5 Imeanknowledge,Imeandire&indinxknotlimitedjust 

Page 9’ 

I toyou=ingsomeo= domlythingor- telliagyw 

2 aboutit,butcvcnindkctly xlmametalkiDgaboutneediog 

3 togatherinfolmatiorl. 

4 A I have indirect knowledge that mat&als related 

5 to-thatshehadsxlttotheReside&orlettezsthathad 

6 bceosenttotbePresidenfwerecokcted 

7 Q Allright. Andprior8 A Idon’tknowiftbeywen?c&&d,thou&in 

9 msponsetotbentwsarticleornot 

!O Q Allright Now,thelettentbatyou’rerefening 

.i to,again,arewetalkingaboutapproximatelyJulyof 1997 

&2 tbattbec&cti~wastakingplace? 

.3 A Idoo’t know. 

.4 Q Allright. Wbatisit-telluswbatitisyou 

.5 know about that topic and how you know it? 

6 A We~,atsomepoint,wehadkttersthatxekitedto 

7 Ms. Willey regarding her &tiooship with tk P&dent and 

8 withotbersintbeWhiteHouseandweprovidedthoseletters 

9 totbepnxs+Ibelieve,atxJmepo$. 

!O Q Now,youused-Ithinkyouusedtbeword 

!I “&tkmship” in talk& about Ms. Willey and tk Presiknt. 

12 Whatisityoumeanby”relatioasbip”? Idoa’tnxantobe 

13 fIip, but you w comfortable using “cclaticmsbip’ in giving 

!4 your answer tknz, but not comfortable in Mr. Appenoo’s 

!S questioos. 

Page 9; 

1 A Right. 

2 Q What is it you mean by “relationship”? 

3 A Iknewtbemtohaveafkodship. 

4 Q Okay. Now,letmetrytodivideitup,becauscI 

5 Q-wanttoumlebacktoreleasingtbeinformationtothe 

6 press,tbetopicyoualhadedto. Isitfairtosay7 A I stated it. 

8 Q Pardon? 

9 A I stated it. 

D Q I don’t mam anything improper by “alhxkd.” 

1 A &okay. 

2 Q ?benkaseofthosektterstotheprcss,is 

3 t&it-didthatoccurshoxtlyafterMs.Wiilleyappearedon 

4 “60 Minutes”? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q AssumeMs.Wiiappearedon”6OMk~“oa 

7 Sunday,March 15tbofthisyear, 1998. Doyounecalliftk 

B &aseofthosele#asoccumzdtbenextday? 

9 A Yes,Iima@eso,orshortlytkeafkr. 

D Q Allrigbt. Soifmydateisasrect,thatwouldbe 

1 cmoraboutMamh16th,wouldyousay? 

2 A Right. Right. Idon’thaveadatexec.0~ 

3 justtobeclear. 

4 Q Well,sincewe’reontbattopic,Idowanttoccnne 

5 ba&toJulyof ‘97,butsincewe’reontkMar&of 1998 

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topic,k.tmstaytt.nzforPminute. 

Tellmwbatitisthatyouknowaboutthcxkasc 

of~~onaraboutMarch16,1998,howthcycam:to 

bC~~patbaodthciIlfOXUl<i0a,whomedctbc 

d&iontor&asetkn,tbatkindoftbin8. Inasan, 

wbatI’maskingyouistelImcwbatyoureCallabollttbc 

circumstan~tbatkdtotbexekaseofthost~. 

A Okay. Inadtocoosukwitbmyattarncyfora 

saxild. 

MR.BARGERz Iftbatoncistoobrosd,youkmw,if 

sombowISoepUrtkpli~toCStbae,~‘lls&ifwC 

canbnakitupsmnebow. 

THE WITNESS: okay. 

~witDCSSwaSarcuscdtoconfawitbCoUSd_) 

THEFOREPERSON: h4s.hfills,I’dliketoxcmindyou 

that you’re still IKKk oath 

THEwrl?+Ess: Tklks. 

BY MR. BARGER: 

Q And you’re probably going to want to know what my 

question was. 

A Yes. 

Q Mybcstxz.oIk&misthatitwasjustbasically 

IdlUStkCircumstan asofbowitcamctobetbattht 

Katbkl willcy uxrc3polldence was rckascd to tk public on 

M about March 16,1998. 

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A Mybestres.olle&misthatatsomepointwe 

becameawaretbatMs.Willeywasgoingtobespeakkgon 

“60Minutes”audtbatsbzwasindicatingthatsbebada 

less than positive relationship with the president in tams 

of her friendship and that she had termiaated her friendship 

astoapartieukirtimeanddate. 

Andaftershepresentedherstatementon”60 

Minute&” we ColleCted materials that reflected that - at 

least her letters did not reflect a less than positive 

relationship with the Resident and others working in tbe 

White Housz who were. close to the President. 

Q Ingezral,isitfairtosaythatsomeoftk 

coRespon&ncefromMs.WilleyspoketotbeResidentin 

friendly, glowing terms, often s&ted “Fondly, Katbkn 

Willey,” that kind of thing? 

A Yes. 

Q Whoma&thedecisiontbattbematuialshouldbe 

released? Was it a collective decision? Was it your 

decision? Was it someone else’s decision? 

A It’s probably a collective decision. I don’t 

really have a sense of soy particular individual person. 

Q Well, how about ynu? Was it your decision? 

A EverytkxgintheWhiteHousetendstobeby 

consensus. And we re-make the &xi&m wk.n tbze’s not 

eoougb people there the fvst time. But at least my 

August 11,1998 

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r#;ollectioowasthatitcatainlyistbecasethatour 

offlcewasinvolvcdinthosed.isxsionsas~as* I 

totbePxsidentwboarerlotinthecormsel’sofflce. 

Q Usngthecxperienceyouhavewithbeingtbae 

since 1993, who in your best reco~on wouId have 

participatf!d in that decisionmakiq process? 

Whenyousaythe WhiteHousecounscl’sofkeand 

othcradvisontothePrcsidenfIdon’twanttothrowin 

people who shouldn’t be ineluded, but geneaaUy, who would 

tbatincllxk? Yollrdf? 

A It axtaixdy would in&& myself. certainly would 

inch& h4r. RUE As to othu individuals, I don’t have a 

~~EC&CtioIlaStOwhdbaOrIlOtOtha 

individuaIs had particuIar thoughts one way or another 

qarding it. 

Q HowabouttbeResidenthimseU? Didk 

participate in the decisionmaking? 

A Idcm’t~havingadixussitmqardingthat 

matterwithhim. 

Q Iunde&andthatyoudon’tr&allhavinga 

dkussion with him, but do you have any infommticm that 

ilXlicatcstbathcparticipatcdinthetionmakingpnxss? 

A MybestinformationwouIdkspecuIation,soI 

fP==~=== wouId k no. 

Q No, you’re - 

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A IwouIdassume that k would k consuIted with 

respecttotbis,but,as said,mybestinf~onwouIdk 

spaxlation. 

Q Wbat’syourbestspe4ation? ‘Ihatkdid 

IWtiCipate? 

A MyassumptionisthatkwouIdkvcbecnconsuItal 

xqgard@tkfactthatt.hisisscmm&iqwewcxgoingtodo 

urdess k had an objection. 

Q AIIright. Howabout-besid~tkResi&nt,how 

abouttkFtiLady? Doyoulmowwhetkrsbepa&ipatal 

inthedeci.siollmaegpnxzss? 

A Not to my knowledge. 

Q When you say not to your knowledge, do you have any 

infoxmal.ioQormasontobeJievethatshedid? 

A No,butI’mcertaintktsamxne wo&imakcsure 

that tk Rsident was am; it’s cquaIIy pIausibIc that k 

mightdiscussthatwithherorthatshemightkawamofit. 

Q Allright. WhcnyousaythemateaiaIswere 

coUo.%d, who physicaUy cc&c&d the KathIen Wii 

correspoodencC? 

A I-the correspondcnoe and particularly the 

recordsmanagemnthadtodoascarchofaIIthemata%& 

thatwcetkre. An~inadditi~themvvlzrcnotes8nd 

IcttrrsandtbingstbathadbccnsmttoNancyHernreich. I 

Q Allright. And,ifI u&&and you concctIy, and I 

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1 youcantellmifI’mwmagorclarifyifncmsary,wue 

2 youtkCRlCtbathsm=tedreuHdsmanaganeattcgathsor 

3 collectwhateva txr%pondence~was~atcdtoKathleea 

4willcy? 

5 A Ibelieveso. Andifitwasrr’tmc,Iwouldhave 

6 toldoneofmyassistgntstotalktonxxxdsrnsmagaaeatto 

7 asktkmforanymat&alsthatwouldhaycbeennlatedto 

8 Ms. W~andcorrespon dencethatbadbx!nsenttoorfmm 

9 lxx. 

0 Q All right. Now, you me&ioDad Nancy Hero&h. 

1 Istht-inyourmil&yousawtwosepamtcplaccswfrrc 

2 cornspa&oceshouldtegatbexdoratlcastlookedtoti 

3 tw0scpamteaKastoseeifunlesp~~cxistcd,ooe 

4behgKzxrds ~tandtheseumdbeingNancy 

5 HemfeSsoffi? 

6 A We&asapmcticalmatt&Ithou@tofa 

7 p&War placa, namely, the Offia of t.& Resider& which 

8 mightals0havelettezsorconespondcncethat~intotbe 

P Resident regarding Ms. Willey. 

io Q Alltight. 

!I A ~th~~e~ereth~h~~offk~tb~twr~e~bCckCd 

12 Q Allright, lhyouk~owwhether-badthese 

13 mat&alsbeencollectcdprevioustoMs.Willcy’s 

!4 “60 Minutes” appearance or were rbsc mataials collected 

!5 afterbe7appearana? 

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A Wdl,ORMmathls,ortbcrcconfsmanagcwot 

llU%~1btlicvCWaCOllCCtCd- aad it’s quite 

phlsibk tbat ttE otbrz matik might bavc bmr gatbaui 

lxf~butIrc&vaitbcmfromthatoffke. 

Q You martioncd that it could pa-laps be an assistant 

toyou. Ifitwaqwhowouldtbatlilrelyk? 

A Idcm’tkwwtbcanswutothatqucstian. Ihave 

twopmpkwboworkwithme,MclissaProbu~EdHugbcs. 

Botboflixmworkinmyofflce. 1tcouldh8vckmtkm. It 

couidha~&obaaMcliss8Mtmay,wbouscdtobcmy 

assistant and now is Mr. Lindscqs assistunt 

Q YatjustmntioaadMr.Lindsy’snamc. WhmIwas 

goingtlIIu@ltbclistofpDopkofpmpk~mayhaW 

participstd in th: decision, I don? raaQ you mmtion& 

MCLindscy. DoyourcalllwWlKMr.LindWyparticipati 

inttcdc&o~pnxxsrtbatultimapfyrrsultedinthc 

mkascoftkKsthk5wiuycarrespmdma7 

A IknmvIwouldhnvcdiscussedthismaaawithhim. 

I~t~~~~~~~a~~~~ 

pamksiaxalackofpumissih,butI’mqrritconfiit 

tbat I would have discussad this with him. 

Q Pamissimpahpsisthtwmngwa&ttCn. %~ght 

his input? 

A Oh,ceiahiy. I~d~~~~~~~ 

Q All&&it. Now,goiagbackwbatsu=liLcawy 

August 11.1998 

prstw I 

I loogtimeagowbcnMr.Appasoowasaskingyouq=.ioos 

2 carlkrUday,IIklievebcyouaqucstioothat 

3 coomacdth:I’aulaJoocslitigaticm. I..&megob&hfly 

4 to that topic. 

5 Dulingthetimepaiodoftbzsummuof1997 

6 tbro~let’ssay,odoberof1997,wurthacoccadocs 

7 whtbePaulaJaxcsplaintiffsissuedsubpoenasadamnmt 

8 reqoeststotheArsirknt? 

9 A It’smybcst undasomdirigthattbacwas. As 

0 apra&almattxr,Ithi&asyouprobablyanawarc, 

1 Idido’tparticipateintbtI’aulaJoneslitigation. 

2 Q whatisyour~oftypicallywho,if 

3 anyox& in tbc White HouS coun!Sel’s of&e was nspocsible 

4 forevaLuatingthwctypcsof~~? 

5 A It’smyuadastandingt.ha~.Lindscyand~.Rvff 

6 we~addzs+tklitigatiooandtheJusti~I)epartmctwas 

7 reprwentinguswithrcspecttosubpoenasaoddocuznmssnd 

8materials. 

9 Q WboattheJusticeDepartmentrepnxamtedtbc~Xte 

.O House, if you xuxdl? 

:1 A 1 don’t. 

2 Q Doyounxalladoamrcntrequestfiwntlx?l’auls 

:3 Jones plaintiffs spuScaUy requesting documents &at& to 

:4 Icathkawiucy? 

:5 A Idon‘tatthetknc.butIlmowthatsubszquenttc 

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thislawycrsintbcPaulaJoncssuithadindicatalthattby 

beGevedtfiattllemataialstbatwr:releasedwemmataiiL 

thathadbumcovexedbyarapzsttbatthyhadma&. H 

aetuality~dlringtbetlansitiorl0ftheirla~tbeytrad 

withdELwll&atlEq~sotbesemathlswexenotcownd. 

Q Nowthatyoumentionedtbat,isitcumxt-w@ 

you’re &zring to is that after Katuem Willey’s ‘60 

Minutes’appeanmceandaftcrtheWhiteHousezelea&rbe 

Katbhzo Wtiey #Imspocdencc the Jooes plaintiffs 

att==Ysalle%adtl=ttb== axnxpondel%xbadnotbua 

providedtotbemintheirdocummtnquesL Isthat 

gaxsallYa==tc? 

A ‘ht’smybeskundastanding. 

Q Okay. Doyoudtbataftr.rthttdk@t.i~ 

therewassomeclaimthatt&requestbytbzPaulaJooes 

plaintiffswasma&t4tkhsidentpCxxQauyaodaot~ 

theW’hiteHouse? DoyounxalltbatbSngsoztofooeeftbe 

publicnzpomx~totbeJo~~~lawycrs’clahthattbeybai 

not bux provided doannents? 

A That’scquallyplausible,thattheymedetheir 

requesttobhplZ%=lly. 

Q All&l&. Butdoyourcralltbatbeingoaeoftlz 

3 publicexphationsinthnuxliaastowhyitwastbe 

4 doc&mrtshadmtbcearumcdowrtotheJonesfawycn? 

5 A Not pttrdddy, but it doesn’t sound 

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Multi-PIlgCW August 11,1998 1 

Page 101 I 

1 inconsistent. 

2 Q Allright. A_wmingthatwasoncofthcpublic 

3 explanations that was circulakd io tk media, that is, that 

4 tbcsubpocnawasdirtcocdtothcRsidcntandnottotbc 

5 Whik House, do you d any discwioas, did you 

6 participate in any discussions, wert yew awatc of any 

7 discussionrc.lataltothedocumalt~froaatbc~uls 

8 Joucspeoplcwketbatkindofdecisioowasmadt? Ifyou 

9 understand my qustion. 

.O A Yes. Iwasn’tapartoftbePaulaJoncs 

1 litigation so I wasn’t a part of discussions ragarding 

.2 responding to subpoams or otbu mattas. It was not a 

.3 matruthat1handkd. 

4 Q Ifthacwasadccisionmadebysomconcintbc 

,5 WhircHousctowithbolddocumentsontbcbasisthattht 

:6 doctmxntrcqucstwnsmadctotbcPrcsidentandaottot& 

.7 whitcHousc,~whetyoutstifiedtDcarlia,isitfair 

8 toassuuethatlikelytbatdecisionwouldhnvelikcly 

:9 iavoN Mr. Ruff or Mr. Lindsey? 

!O A Areyouaskingmabypotkticalquc&on? 

!I Q perhaps. Lamdoitthisway. Isitconect- 

!2 didIunda.staodyou~tlytosaycazlicrti 

!3 Mr. Appason was qucstioaing you that the Paula Joocs matkrs 

!4 wuc typically addressed by Mr. Ruff and Mr. Lindsey? 

!5 A That’s corxct. 

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Page 103 

1 Q Cddywe~ontbaf*yaumeantbythat 

2 and whete you got that impxssioa? 

1 . Q Allrigh~ Assuming,goingbacktowhatIsaid 

2 enrliczassumingthattkzcwasamaIiareportthat 

3 documents war. withkld from th: Paula Jones plaintiffs, the 

4 lawyers, withbcld lium than, that calkd-for documats 

5 relative to Kathleen Willcy m withbcld on the basis that 

6 tbtdocumcnt~~twssmadttothcRsidentandnottotbc 

7 Whik House; assuming that was tbt media report and assuming 

8 thatreportwasaccuratc,isitfairtosay,tbcn,thst 

9 Mr. Ruff and Mr. Lindsey would hwc b&n the ones that 

Cl participated in that decision, if such a decision was ma&? 

1 A Well,I’m&ngrodcclinetoassumcanything. 

2 Q Allright. 

3 A ButIwillazhinlysayitisthccasctbstwith 

4 rcspozt to this matter, Mr. LinasCy and Mr. Ruff typically 

5 addressed issws rclakd to tbc Paula Jares litigation. 

6 Q Allright. Doyoubavcanyknowl&&dircctor 

7 indirec: of documaits relating to Katlllaxl witky being 

B witbkld !ium and not produced to the Paula Jones attomcys? 

3 A No, not to tbc best of my knowla@. 

3 Q Now, you nxutioncd carliu that it was your 

1 impression that pa-haps this docmt quest &ting to 

2 ffithkwWilkybadbaaMxirawninsomccbangcovaby 

3 atlornqs. 

4 A That was my impassion from ma% and 0th things. 

5 Ys. 

3 A IthSmyimprssionarosefromdiffaentthings 

4 thatI~soIdon’tknowthatIamelaboratemorrthan 

5 that,butitwascatainlymyimpressionattk~usi~of 

6 tkdiffacznallqghmsthatwcrcmadcbyPaulaJoas’ 

7 lawyusthattbaewasabasisforwhymatcGls~ 

8 lhithl~~iastowhi&tbeybelievCd~hadsought 

9 werewtproduced 

0 Q Andyourimpnxsion-andIapologiae,your 

1 imprcssionforwhyitwaswithhcldwasperbapsthatt& 

2 request had b&n withdrawn, pahaps iwkrteatly. but 

3 withdrawn? 

4 A PerfiapsthattherequtsthiidbeenWitMrawn. 

.5 Ialsodon’tdisputt,asyouhdicate,thattbatart 

6 stakmaitswithregardtotbatthcsematialswae~uested 

7 flvmthePrcsidcntinhispcrsonalcapacityaadnotfiomthc 

8 White Houst, ‘hat’s another equally plausible explanation. 

9 Butitwasmyimpressionthattkmaterialstbatthcysought 

10 ultimatcly~aotcov~byreqtithattbcymade. 

:I Q Allright. Ibelievcyoukstificdyouhavebetn 

12 at tbe White House counsel’s offkc since January of 1993. 

13 ACorrect. 

:4 Q Based on your observations, your cxperiazc at tk 

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1 toturnovcfKa~WiiUmespon dmaaodiftk 

2 Rcsidenthndsaidtoyou,“Ms.Milh,I’dUa~0gatba 

3 to@kfall0fthc~~intkWhitcHowcrdakd 

4 toKathkulwilky~isitfaiTtosnytbatyouwouldhave 

5 gatbErtxltbatorgdher? 

6 A Idon’tknmvbowto uzM7yourqtK!stialbccausc 

7 tb&s a lot of assumptions, but it is wtainly the B 

8 tl-,atwhenrcquestscometotkWhikHouscforllsraialsthat 

3 arcwithintbtWbikHousc’scoatrol,wcgatkrdmec 

3 makrials. WbxtbtIcquc5tsnTlaktopus0MlIrquests 

I tbatartmthcPnsi&llftypicallytbosc~ma~~t 

2 axehandhibyhispawnalattaays. 

3 Q All@& Howwoukiyoudiffauhak-iflhae 

4 wasa~addr8wdtoResidentWilliamJdfcnar 

5 clintona!xlitlaidfaalldocumentsrdatingto~(fiben 

5 willcywithinhiscustodyorc+nl~~~youseyingthat 

7 docummtsintbtWhikHouscwouldnotbcun&rthc 

J P&dent’s control just because tk subpoena is not 

) addressed to the white House? 

1 A As a practical matter, you’= probably awwc that 

I thc’saRcsi&ntialRaxhActandtk~idahl 

Z RcccudsActimposcsparticularobligationsonthtWbikHousc 

b withrcgardtothoscrccQldstimtatcumsidaedthc 

1 Pnesidmt’srsordsMdaothispcnoarrllcuxdsdthosc 

5 xemrdstbataxedcunodhispQM)aalrccQfds. ahdahmat 

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1 Prai&otttonrbatisinthc~~toffl~ 

2 wouldtbatbcundcrtbccontmlofFTcSidcnt~~? 

3 A Can you r&ate that question? 

4 Q In your opinion, would camsponduxe from Kathka~ 

5 Wilky to F+r&dmt CIintbn tbat physically is kxzati in tbc 

6 0ffi0fRcco& ~~~d~t~~~~~l 

7 of Pnsideot Clinton? 

8 A Okay. I want to consult with my attomcy. 

9 Q I’mnskingyouropinion,I’mootmekingyotukgal 

0 advilx. 

1 A My~~~~o~~~~~~rny~ 

2 adGicGunfcctlulakIy,thcywmctogctbu. 

3 lJ%CWitlXSSW8SCXCIlSXltoC0Uf~WithC0UlSCl.) 

4 BY MR. BARGI!& 

5 Q DoIncuitorwskmyqti~tion? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Allright. IthinkmyqucstionisiyouroPinion, 

8 would wncspondalcc w Kathkra Wii to Rsi< 

9 CIint4mtbatwaspbysiilocstcdinthcOfEce0fRawds 

0 hGw@zMl~wwldtbathavcbmlundatkum~lof 

.1 IJK%i&ttcLinrm? 

I2 A Ithinkin I#lwwr& tit questian you’tc asking 

13 fcrakgaIopiaiamdItbinkIwuuIdpmbabIytbsonw 

!4 anaiyei bcfac rcafbittg that conchJsion. 

!5 QAllMht 

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A Ornachingacmchtskm. 

Q Audjusttobcatthhnscoaenxmtimc,yourbcst 

lr.dkJztionis-doyoubavcallyr&olkctkmtbataIlybody 

wultthroughdlatkindofanaJysis,Imal+ngtbatqucstioo, 

witbKgaKitotheppulaJoncssubpoalafadocummtsldarxl 

t0KathkSXIWillc)rl 

Doyouknowwb&xanybodydidany lercerchoonrid 

Iookainttkissucof~asubpanaaddnwaitu 

F%cS&ntCliatondidnotnxplimdoclmbmUintfr:offlccof 

Rox&ManagancntmbctlmK!d0vu7 

A AsIpr&abiysaidcarlicr,Iwasnot~PartciftbC 

~~~~~~~~~J~~~~~ 

I+mtmtinap&ionto lUl!wutbatquatim 

Q Okay. Wknyousayyou’rcnotiarposition,your 

bcstrvzco~isyuudon’t)cIMw-aml~tothc 

kstafyoufkDowkdgqyoudodtknowifanybodycogagcdill 

that kind ofnnalysis. 

A Idon’t~tittbnydid,aEIwarnotspartof 

that pmccss. 

Q Lr?tmgobacktotbcn&ascoftk&cumn~ 

after “60 Minutes.” You nKMioncd two sow&, two 

kw&R!x offiiofRewrds Mansgement d patiaps Nw 

IIunm&s otTi&. 

A It’stbtOfE~aftkRcsidmtaOwdOffii 

opawions, I bclim is what it’s called 

Page 108 

1 Q Oncetkmcordswmpthacd,ppfiapsfromboth 

2 ofthosclcca~whuctitbeygofrcun~? Didthey 

3 gotoyowoff&ordidthSygotosomazw &e’s Offl? 

4 A Ib&evcmxrds IwMgmaltprovidcduxirlcwKIs 

5 tome. Ibc&vTtbetIrcaivcdtheotkrlsmfsf&mh&% 

6 Hanzich or fmm that offi. Ihat’s my bmt tecolkction. 

7 Q DoyounallwbctbcritwasMs.Hanr&h? 

8 A Idan’tLnowifitww&uallyh&.&ra&h 

9 Q Ifitwaso’tMs.Hawich,doyourccallwimit 

0 wnlkiIikdyhavcbazl? 

I A No. Ijustkxwtbettbcscwackt&tstbat 

2 nfkzedlaloffvroPaa~. 

3 Q Witbrcgdtotkhndocummtsin 

4 Ms.Han&h’sofficc,didyouspcakwitbhSs.Hunmichto 

5 bsn:ha&tksarchadid scmKoncdp+spcakwithhQ 

6 QC7 A Idm’txudl. IktmwtbntIindicakdtbatI 

8 neadcdwIla~~andmatuiaL?ldard0 

9 Ms. Hunt&h’s camxpoadaKccamctoov8lOffiiopcmtian 

0 aadIal5odidthcsamcthingwitbmcardsmmrpenrst. I 

1 ~‘t~~~~~~~~~ 

2 ga~uou3u~~tbat 

3 Q ohy. Afathcyc-c~woffk+wbt 

14 happmd trJ tlnn? 

Y A WencvicwzdtbcmaIaialsandthmI’msmewithia 

Page 105 - Page 10E 
2904 

I xc: Grand Juzy proccclngs Milt 

Page 109 

1 thcwxl&yariworc~tbosemserials. 

2 Q And pbysiCa&, what’s inVOhd in l%b~ing the 

3 mat&&? How did tbat work? 

4 A WemadecopiesoftbemsUl%ChtfortbCmCmbas 

5 ofthcpressandyouprovidctbm~them. 

6 Q Andis?hatpartofyrnxrfuoho? Imeao,didyoU 

7 ~~maketJcpbcmcCaIktonxmbasoftbcprcssaod~y 

8 Tvegot Katbkul wincy doClnwlta’7 

9 A No. 

0 Q Whodidthat? 

1 A Idon’tknowtk ann+u to that qustion, but our 

2 press ~tiOtl typically would bandk tit 

3 Q Aliri&t. Wc&,soaftathcdo~um=~tawa~ 

4 phy&a&gatbtxdandtakmtoyouroff~ia,~usaidthat 

5 fbGywnnhwcdandthmeopicd Wbodidyougivcbanto 

6 toContimlethcproassofwpyingandtbend.isscminatiog 

7 A Allri&t. wcU,CopyingwouIdhavepmbab~ 

8 likely bavc barn my assistants Q an intao. With nspcct to 

9 provid@thmtotbeprcss,itwoukihaveb&n~ofout 

0 P~s~~~d~t~~d~M~~~~~~ 

I ~C&rzyand&oinourofTiCewebavctwoindividualswbD 

2 addresspmsmattas. ItwuIdhvcixmanyoft;trm. 

3 Q Waealloftbcdocumczl ts that = found telative 

4 toKarhkmwiIleyColrespondma,wcaVtbcyre~tothc 

5 prcssaoniysckzdoncs? 

Page 110 

1 A weIK&aStdtithelettcrS Wedidn't~easthe 

2 &aftsoftllelettersandthingsliketbat. soinother 

3 word&whenevertberealelcetesthat~cumeback 

4 andthtRz&lent-thezemi&tbesevemldrahstbatare 

5 doaebeforethefinalletterisdonc,wtwouldreleasr:the 

6 fmal letter. That’s my best recollmtioll. 

7 Q Your best xecollectioo is you released all letters 

8 seotfromtheResident? 

9 A ~dl~~tf~~~w~~~~ 

0 Resident or Nancy Hemmich, is my best recollection. 

I Q okay. And,again,yourlxstIzu&cti~isit 

2 waso? s&ctive. If Kathleen WiUcyaentalettcz,itwas 

3 txhased 

4 A To the best of my rewllec-th. 

5 Q who participated -now,yousaidtbeywete 

6 reviewrd Who participated in tbc review pnxess? 

7 A Idid. 

8 Q Just you? 

9 A No,I’msureotherpeoplezviewedthemas~. 

) I’maxecitherMr.R~rekwedtbemorMr.Lindscy 

I reviewedtbemasMl,butasapmcticalmatter,atleastmy 

z besttecollection,thatIwa.stbtollcwhocollectedtbcmattd 

3rnriemdtbem. 

4 Q Woulditbeaccuratetodcpictyouasthepersonin 

s chargeofthisorthtyoutooktbeleadrespohbility? Or 

Page 111 

1 wouIditbeifUuxuzate? 

2 A Imcan,it’sacharacttion. I~anIdlyou 

3 wbatIdid ItoolrresponsibiIityforcaIkctiogth 

4 matcaialsandfor &0vingtbxnandthmultimatdyow 

5 prss peopbdissunina~ it. 

6 Q Wdl,whcayousayyoutoolcrarponrib%tyforit, 

7 timtsu@c&&atit’ryourmsponsibilhyandnobody 

8 &e’s+ Is that atxuratc iaeceurst? 

9 A Wdl,Imcan,Iarthlytthkthttotkexknt 

,o othapcoplthadm&aialsaotbuthh#liketbatlht 

1 thytboughtshouldbeapartofthis,itwoul~Ithi&be 

.2 tb&n+uxisibilitytoeith7ktmekrKnvoraddressit” 

.3 Q Okay. Now,yousaid,ifIunderstsndyw 

4 cmdy,y~~bclkvchf.r.RuffandMr.Lindsymaybevcalso 

s xc!vimdthtmaterials? 

6 AChllUt. 

7 Q Wasthatatyaaxquest’? 

8 A Idoo’thow. 

9 Q Allright. Doyourccdwbcktkyvhkucd 

!O to mkw tfr: mF4uials? 

!I A No,Idon’txeallwbatkztbeyvoluntazrd. 

!2 Q DoyouyoUuMlxzyousosolicit&tb&input’? 

!3 A No,Idon’t. 

!4 Q IsitIikelyyousolicitaItbcirinput? 

!5 A It’nlikelythatIpmvidcdthemwithnn 

Page IL 

1 oppmtl&ytonvimtbscmateMs. 

2 MRBARGER: IImowIbavcmonque&msbuttlxzc 

3 areotbxtitnca!icswaitingtodayiuKtIIlaveintnl&donMs. 

4 ~~s~a~,~~rnp~~-~~~b~, 

5 I’mgoingtostopinjustamiouteorhwoandprobab~picL 

6 up at anotkr date &et’s mutually coavcoient and I apoIo&c 

7 to continue tbc process, but = do ha= other witnesses 

8 waiting. 

9 THEWITNESS: Right. No. IknowIwaitedforan 

IO hourandabalf. 

I1 MR APPERSGN: IlMlt was Mr. Apm’s fault. 

I2 THEWITNESS: Mr.wiitugassuIcrlmctbat1woukl 

13 camckaeandIwouIdstatratdeKmandUmtt@wouIdnot 

14 kCepmcloD&xtbaotoday. 

15 hfR.BARGER: Ihrvenodoubtthathedid. I 

16 apolcgiz AndIapologizeonlxhIfoftficofIiic+. 

17 JustoIy:ortwomoreqlxsthIu. 

I8 BY MR. BARGa 

19 Q Gntbcmatui&youxevhxdforhfs.Wiithat 

‘0 natkalrda%suL!vaethaeaoyredaCtionstohat 

1-7 

2 A Idon’tknow. Cutahdyiftbaewaspczso~! 

Diversified RemMing Services. Inc. (2021296-2929 

3 inforinalhor~likthat,acEytobeaalsitiveto 

4 tba&soifscnKhdywasinatiYxeuia%slxn&oglike 

5 tbrt,mtypiCallytIytobeaaIsitiv%totbosetypeaof 

Page 109 - Page 112 
2905 

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Page 113 

things. Idon’tIcnowiftkcwz3inthisp=ti=k 

mathI,butthat~ykourpractirr. 

Q Okay. Doyou~whetbzyousugeestaiany 

redactions? 

A It’s quite plausible. I taid to be probably OXNZ of 

thepcopIemostRensitivetopeoplc’spssoaalfamiIyma#as 

orilkssesorotbuthingsthatangoixlgonintbdr 

l&S. 

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Q How about addrascs? Would you namai!y rcdaa tbc 

add=s=~~persanalmnspan dexxesoitwouldn’tbea 

mat&z that’s out there for the altim public? 

A Yes. l~i~y~‘t~~p~~~~a 

pcxitionwhcthcmediaarcgoingtoksakingtbcmout 

withgreatereasethanneedbe. 

MRBARGER: ItisinkIwiIIstoptbae. If 

thea-eareoncortwoquesthsthattbegrandjuxywantsto 

asknowesopposedtoanothrtime,thiswoufdbeagood 

time,ifyoubavetkm. Ohwise,wewillhavetocbm: 

back. 

(No =I--=.) 

MR. BARGER: Inks like it’s a good time to stop. 

Iaskpenhsicmfortkwi~tobccxaJse&to 

reappear at a Ia& mutually convenient date. 

THE FOREPERSON: Yes. Thank you. 

THEWITNESS: ‘Ibaakyouvaymuch. 

Page 114 

1 MR. BARGER: Ms. Mills, thank you for your 

2 appearance. 

3 THE WlTNEISS: Thank you all for your time. 

4 (lb? witne.ss was excuse&) 

5 (Whenmpoq at 4:07 p.m., the taking of testimony 

6inthepresenceofafuflquonunoftheGrandJurywas 

7 concluded.) 

a **t** 

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Diversified Reporting SCMXS, IIIC. 802) 296-2929 
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OK-302 (Rev. 8-19-94) 

- 1 - 

OFFICE OF THE EWEPENDENT COUNSEL 

Dare of transcription 07/17/98 

220 South Sixth Street, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402, telephone 

number _. The interview was conducted in the offices 

of DORSEY WITNEY, 16th Floor, 150 Park Avenue, New York, New 

York. MONDALE was immediately advised of the identity of the 

interviewers and the purpose of the interview. MONDALE 

thereafter provided the following information: 

MONDALE is employed as an entertainment correspondent 

for the "Columbia Broadcasting System" (CBS) program entitled, 

"This Morning." MONDALE first met WILLIAM J. CLINTON in Arkansas 

during the 1984 Presidential campaign. MONDALE is a friend of 

CLINTON, who she knows politically from various fundraisers for 

the Democratic Party. MONDALE last saw CLINTON approximately two 

months ago, during a fundraiser in Los Angeles, California, where 

she was a guest of GAIL ZAPPA. 

MONDALE last visited CLINTON at the White House in 

December 1997. MONDALE advised she entered through the northwest 

gate on Pennsylvania Avenue, after arriving on a "redeye" flight 

from Los Angeles. MONDALE placed the date as the day before she 

conducted interviews of CHARLTON HESTON and others as Kennedy 

Center honorees. MONDALE visits CLINTON approximately once a 

year when she is in town. 

MONDALE had called BETTY CURRIE for an appointment with 

the President. MONDALE is a personal friend of CURRIE's and 

occasionally meets her for coffee. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON was 

not present when MONDALE visited CLINTON in December. MONDALE 

met alone with CLINTON in a private study behind the Oval Office. 

CURRY was at her desk outside the Oval Office. MONDALE could not 

hear any noise from outside the study, although CURRIE did knock 

on the door and announce that it was 1O:OO a.m. MONDALE spent 

approximately 30 minutes with the President while they discussed 

her unnamed ex-boyfriend, who the President did not like. 

Fundraising and policy matters were not discussed. 

Investigation on 07/16/98 at NEW YORK, NEW YORK Ale # 29D OIC LR 35063 

SA 

by CI Date dictated 07/17/98 
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Cotinualion of OK-302 of ELEANOR JANE MONDALE .On 07/16/98 .Page 2- 

CLINTON was comfortable during the visit and did not 

appear irritated or agitated. BETTY CURRIE did not appear to be 

agitated either before or after MONDALE's visit with the 

President. 

MONDALE does not know any Secret Service employees, 

other than an Officer WILKEY, who she remembered from then 

Vice-President WALTER MONDALE's security detail, and Special 

Agent (SA) BRYAN STAFFORD, whom she met in Los Angeles. MONDALE 

never heard of MONICA LEWINSKY nor LINDA TRIPP prior to January, 

1998.&aOvOH 
I” RE: 

______.-------__ 

Washinqm”, 0. e. *o*o‘ 

Page 2 

1 PROCEEDINGS 

2 Whereupon, 

3 REGINALD G. MOORE 

4 was called as a witness and, having been first duly sworn by 

5 the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and testified 

6 as foIlows: 

7 EXAMINATION 

8 BY MR. SUSANIN: 

9 Q Good morning, sir. 

0 A Good morning. 

1 Q You are Reginald Moore; is that correct? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Could you spell your name for the record? 

4 A Reginatd, R-e-g-i-n-a-id, middle initial, G., last 

5 name, Moore, M-o-o-r-e. 

6 Q Mr. Moore, we just met outside a minute ago. My 

7 name is Tii Susanin and, once again, I’m an Associate 

8 Independent Counsel. Let me introduce everyone else in the 

9 room to you. To my left is my colleague, Terry Galligan, 

!O also from the Independent Counsel’s Office. Across from me 

II is the court reporter and on the other side of Mr. Galbgan 

12 is the Foreperson of the grand jury and the Deputy 

13 Foreperson; is that correct? 

!4 THE DEPUTY FOREPERSON: Correct. 

!S 

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I BY MR. SUSANIN: 

2 Q And the atha ladies and gentlemen in the room 

3 before you arc the ladies and gentlemen of the grand juy 

4 Okay? 

5 A ARti@%. 

6 Q Now. as you know. you are ixxe for some questionin 

7 before the grand jury today. In a few minutes I’m going to 

8 ask you those questions. Befon: we do. I just want to 

9 briefly review with you some rights and responsibilities you 

0 have before the grand jury. Okay? Fair enough? 

1 A Yes. 

2 Q Okay. Fust of all, as you might be aware already, 

3 you have the right to counsel. You do not have thr: right to 

4 bring your attorney in Ibe Grand Jury Room with you: bowcsa, 

5 you do have the t-i&t to have counsel outside with you and 

6 you can stop at any time during the proceedings today and 

7 consult with your attorney. Do you understand that, sir? 

8 A Yes, Ido. 

9 Q Do you have an attorney or attorneys wirb you here 

0 today? 

I A We have attorneys that represent the Secrer 

2 Service, yes. 

3 Q I’m going to ask you to try to elevate your voice. 

4 MR. SLK4NlN: Arc you having problems hearing in 

5 the back row? We’re. running our fan hem today to try to 

Page 4 

1 keep things cool. 

2 BY MR. SUSAMN: 

3 Q It might even help if you can turn when you’re 

4 speaking and look in the grand jurors’ direction, but we’re 

5 going to ask you to keep your voice up so they can hear. 

6 When you say, “We have attorneys hem today,” 

7 you’re talking about the Secret Service attorneys? 

8 A That’s correct. 

9 Q Do you have a personal attorney here today that 

0 you’ve hired solely to represent you? 

1 A No, I have not. 

2 Q And tell the ladies and gentlemen who the attorneys 

3 with the Secret Service are. 

4 A Tom Dougherty and Matt -- I don’t mcall his last 

5 name. 

6 Q Okay. Are those the only two attorneys here with 

7 you today? 

8 A That’s correct. 

9 Q You also are under oath, as you know. You were 

o just sworn in. Do you recall that? 

I A Yes. 

2 Q You have an obligation to testify truthfulIy here 

‘3 in front of the grand jury. Do you understand that, sir? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q That includes an obligation to not mislead the 

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grand jurors and to not tell them you can’t remember if, in 

fact, you do remember. Do you understand that? 

A Yes. 

Q You also ha\.e a Fifth Amendment right under the 

Constitution, and that works as follows. You have the right, 

if you think an an_nver to a question that I pose to you would 

tend to incriminate you. to not answer that question. Do you 

understand your Fifth Amendment right? 

A Yes. 

Q And, lastly, in addition to asking to keep your 

voice up, we are going to ask you to make sure, as you have 

been doing, that you give us verbal answers as opposed to a 

nod or a shrug so that we can get everything down with the 

court reporter. Do you understand that? 

A Yes. 

Q All right. LVhy don’t you begin by telling the 

grand jury briefly your history with the Secret Service? 

when were you first employed by them? 

A I’ve been employed with the Secret Service for 14 

years. Started out, was hired in the Atlanta Field Office, 

worked in Miami, transferred to Baton Rouge, Louisiana, tha 

to the Office of Training here in Washington, D.C., where I 

taught for three years; and I’ve been assigned to the 

President’s detail for four years, four months and ten days. 

Q Could you be more specific? 

Page t 

1 (La&t=.) 

2 Now, let me ask you. you have been with tbe PPD for 

3 four years and then with tbc Training Command for tb~~ years 

4 beyond that. so you have been in Washington tbe last seven 

5 years. 

6 A That’s correct. 

I Q Now, were you a Uniformed Division Officer at any 

8 time or have you always been on tbe PPD side during those 14 

9 years you’ve been with the Service? 

0 A No. I’ve been an Agent for the 14 years. 

1 Q Okay. So, you’ve been an Agent for all 14 years. 

2 A That’s corn%. 

3 Q But only with tbc PPD tbe last four years? 

4 A That’s correct. 

5 Q Okay. So you were a PPD Agent as of this past 

6 November which would be November of 1997: is that co-t? 

7 A That’s correct. 

8 Q Now let me ask you if you know a woman by tbc name 

9 of Monica Lcwinsky. 

0 A Yes. 

1 Q Tell tbc ladies and gentlemen how you know Ms. 

2 L&n&y. 

3 A By seeing ba in and about the West Wing and tbc 

4 Mansion of the White House compkx. 

5 Q Wben did you fust meet Ms. Lewinsky? 

5 

Thursday, July 30,199g 

Page 7 

I A I don’t think I ever actually met bcr. I would 

2 lust see her in and about the White House complex. 

3 Q Okay. Can you at least date for the grand jury to 

4 thr best of your ability when you fist started seeing MS. 

5 Lzwinsky in the White House? 

6 A No. I cannot. 

7 Q Can you tell tbc grand jurors wbctber it’s been a 

8 numbcr of ytzu-s that you’ve known ha, a number of months? 

9 A Months, a number of months. 

0 Q Ld’s go back to January of this year. January of 

1 1998. Can you work backwards from wh - you’re aware of 

2 tk press accounts of the Monica J_.ewinsky cast bitting in 

3 January of this )w? 

4 A Ys.Iam. 

5 Q Can you work backwards from January and try to give 

6 tbc grand jurors an idea of long you knew Ms. Lewinsky by fhe 

7 time that story broke? 

8 A I was aware of Ms. Lewinsky probably six to eight 

9 months prior to January. 

10 Q Okay. So six to eight months back into 1997. 

!I A Exactly. 

!2 Q So. in otha words tben it would be four to six 

13 months into 1997. 

14 A Yes. that’s correct. 

15 Q And did you say there never was a time where you 

Page 5 

I formally met Ms. Lewinsky? 

2 A mat’s correct. 

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Q Tell the ladies and gentlemen if you can what you 

recall about the first time you became aware of her then, if 

in fact you never formally met her? 

A I would see her in the West Wing carrying items and 

also in the Mansion carrying items. 

Q Is there anything that stands out in your mind 

about the first time you saw her? 

A No. She always wore black as I recall and she 

always carried things, and everybody in the White House was 

pretty cordial so we’d speak. 

Q I’m going to get to any conversation you might have 

in a minute. Let me just back up and follow this for a bit. 

Do you recall where in the West Wing you would see her? 

A Usually when I was on post in the West Wing. 

Q And explain to the ladies and gentlemen what that 

lTE3llS. 

A ThereareanumberofpostsintheWhiteHouse 

where the security personnel stand and I would see her at 

different intervals. 

Q Okay. And by virtue of you being on post, is it 

fair to assume that you were there because the President was 

there? 

A Yes. 

Page 5 - Page 8 

Diversified Rtmorting Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 
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In re: Grand Jury Proceedings MUh 

Page S 

1 Q And when you talk about posts in the West Wing, are 

2 you really talking about the posts in and around the Oval 

3 Office? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q Let me ask you, again. Is there anything that 

6 stands out about the fii time you became aware of her or is 

7 it more that you recall her just because of a pattern of 

8 seeing her? 

9 A That’s correct, because of a pattem of seeing her. 

I 0 Q So there is nothing that stands out about the fust 

I I time you saw her? 

1 2 A No. 

1 3 Q Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the grand jury, if 

1, 4 you would, what post you woutd be on when you saw Ms. 

1 5 Lewinsky. Where do you remember seeing her? 

1 6 A There’s a post outside the Cabinet Room which is in 

1 7 a proximity to the Press Office. Yes, in that vicinity. 

1 8 Q Is there a letter and number designation for that 

1 9 post outside the Cabinet Room? 

2 0 A It could be m 

2 1 Q And would you be on duty at2 2 A No. 

2 3 Q Okay. You’re more describing where you saw Ms. 

2 4 L%ilX?.ky? 

2 5 A Exactly. 

Page 10 

1 Q Tell the ladies and gentlemen where you were when 

t you saw Ms. Lewinsky. 

3 A Let me clarify. 

4 Q Sure. 

5 A W is a designation for a Uniformed Division 

6 post. Wben the President is in the Cabinet Room, an agent 

7 will move from another post near m and take up that post. 

0 

1 1 A That’s correct. 

1. 2 

1 3 

1 4 

1 5 

1 6 

I 7 A No. We both would be there. 

i 8 Q You both would be there together. Okay. And the 

1 9 times that you‘re discussing with regard tom clear up 

1 !O for me where did you see Ms. Lewinsky in relation to where 

1 !l you am. You’re at the_ post by the Cabinet Room; is 

1 !2 that right? 

i !3 A Yes. 

1 !4 Q Tell us where you see Ms. Lewinsky when you’re on 

2 !5 i that post. 

i-1 Pagem Thursday, July 30, 1998 

Pge i; 

1 A The&s a hallway that leads from the Press Room 

2 where the actual press sit that comes into - it comes past 

3 -and into like the Press Office. so somewhere in the 

4 vicinity of there I would see her. 

5 Q IS it fair to say on one side of tbc Cabinet Rcom 

6 is the Press Office, but at rhe otba end of the Cabinet Room 

7 are the wxtary offices that !ead to the Oval? 

8 A That’s correct. 

9 Q And can you tell us again which one of those ends 

0 you’d see Ms. Lewinsky walking from and which end you would 

I see her walking to? 

2 A At that time, she was coming from the press side 

3 and going to -- I don’t recall whez she went at that time, 

4 but just at that point. sbe was coming from the press side, 

5 Q And waIking in the genemt direction of the Ovai 

6 Ofticc or where the Oval Offrcc secretaries sit? 

7 A In tit block of office space. yes: but I can’t say 

8 exactly where she was going. 

9 Q I understand you can’t say where she went. so I 

0 don’t want to ask you that. I want to make it clear, she’s 

I walking from the press area in rbe direction of the Oval 

2 Office: is that conat? 

3 A That’s correct. 

4 Q And I understand you didn’t see when: s&: went; is 

5 thatright? 

Page 12 

1 A That’s correct. 

2 Q How many times would you say you saw Ms. Lxx-in&y 

3 when you were on that post? 

4 A Maybe two. 

5 Q Do you xcall whether they wue weekends or 

6 weekdays? 

7 A No, I do not recall. 

8 Q Do you recall what the traffic was like or the 

9 atmosphere was like in the White House? Was it busy? Was it 

0 quiet? 

1 A A normal working atmosphen. 

3” 

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!2 Q-_ 

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!3 L 

!4 AV _ 

!5 y 

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In re: Grand Jury Proceedings Milt i-1 

Page 13 

1 Q Okay. 

2 A -- which -- go ahead. 

3 Q Please finish. I may have cut you off. 

4 A Well. &at’s where it is. It’s in proximity. rigbl 

5 in front of Betty Curiie’s office. 

6 Q All right. And Betty Currie is the President’s 

7 secretary? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q And can you go past wbcre she sits into Itx: Oval 

IO Office? 

II A Yes 

I2 Q And you saw Ms. Lewinsky from generally Betty 

13 Currie’s area? 

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A Yes. 

Q All right. TeU the ladies and gentlemen what you 

remember seeing. 

A Monica Lewinsky there in the area, but to clarify. 

at- you can see again the Press Office. 

Q Are you saying you can see that hallway you’ve just 

described where -is? 

A Yes. 

Q All r&t. And what’s pertinent about &at? Is 

that where you saw Ms. kinsky walking to or from when you 

were at Betty Curric’s? 

A Yes. exactly. 

Page 14 

1 Q Tell the ladies and gentlemen about that. What did 

2 you see? 

3 A While I was standing at Post=, I saw Monica 

4 Lewinsky in the hallway. 

S Q Was she standing still in the hallway or WZIS she 

6 walking? 

7 A As I recall, she was walking. 

8 Q Okay.---From where to where? 

9 A From the -area. 

10 Q To where? 

11 A Into the m area. 

12 Q And so did she come to Betty Cufrie’s area? 

13 A That I do not nxali. 

14 Q Do you remember where she went after she was 

1 S walking down the hallway from the Press area to a area 

16 A No, I do not. 

17 Q Did you speak with her? Did she come to where you 

I8 were? 

19 A I don’t recall that and if she was in a -- from 

20 here to that door, I would still nod or say hello. 

21 Q Now, was there just one occasion when you were no 

22 post by Betty Curie’s office that you saw Monica? Or were 

23 there others? 

24 A Twice. Like I said, m and_ am in close 

2s proximity to each other, so in that vicinity I saw her, as I 

PiigE? Tl.~ufsday, July 30, 1998 

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recall. appmximalely twice. 

Q AU rigbhr. Let me clarify. A minute ago when we 

were talking just about tire m post. I believe you said you 

saw her twice from that post; is that correct? 

A No. In &rat whole area,. and-. they are in 

close proximity to each other. so if it’s one block I saw 

her within that one block. So at r.m. either one, I 

saw her approximately twice as I recall. 

Q Okay. So am you saying you saw her once when you 

were on E-10 and once when you were on m? 

A I couldn’t differentiate. 

Q Isu. Letmeaskittbiswayandseeifit 

tr&rs a memory of any kind. If you war: standing watch or 

if you were on post at -and Ms. Lewinsky walked down the 

hallway from the Press area towards the Oval Of&e. would 

she pass you? 

A Yes. she would. 

Q All right. And then do you remember wbetber you 

ever saw Ms. Lewinsky walk by you? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. And how many times do you remember tbar? 

A Probably. again, once or twice. Once -- it all 

depends. 

Q Okay. You remember at Ieast once. 

A Yes. 

Page lkl 

1 Q And you’re not sure beyond that? 

2 A Exactly. 

3 Q And then if you were at-, if you were on Post at 

4 (I-- 

S A Yes. 

6 Q-- and Ms. Lewinsky were making that same tip from 

7 the Press OftIce towards the Oval, she wouldn’t walk past 

8 you, she would walk towards you? 

9 A 

10 Q 

II A 

12 Q 

13 A 

14 Q 

IS A 

16 Q 

17 A 

18 Q 

EXaCtIy* 

Do you ever remember that happening? 

Yes, maybe once. 

okay. 

YeS. 

Maybe more? 

Maybe. 

Do YO? remember that happening at least once? 

YeS. 

Okay. Now, let me ask you, a little while ago you 

I9 mentiomxi something about conversation. Let me stick with 

20 the time that you mmem her ahout being on- wbmc she 

21 actually walks past you What if anything do you semen&r 

22 conversation-wise about that incident? 

23 A No, I just say, “He&x” 

24 Q And what would Ms. I&win&y say? I 

25 A She’d say, “HeIIo,” hack. I 

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I Q DO ~0” mnanbcr anything beyond that? 

2 A No. I do not. 

3 Q Do you think you had a conversation beyond that and 

4 you don’t rcmanba or do you think tbze was no conversation 

5 beyond that? 

6 A I think the was no conversation beyond that. 

7 Q Now kt me. shift yoy let me push you, as they say 

8 inSecresServieehguage,bumpyouovato~ 

9 La me ask you about the one instance whse you 

1 0 runembcz ha walking towards that area. Did you have an 

1 1 conversation with ha on that occasion? 

1 2 A No, otha than say, “Hello.” 

1 3 Q DoyouremembcrifF%tlyCtiewasinbzrareaon 

1 4 tbat occasion? 

1 5 A No. I do not. 

1 6 Q Do you remember where Ms. Lewinsky vmt once she 

1 7 got to l3eq’s artzl? 

1 8 A No, I do not. 

1 9 Q Do you tunember if Ms. Lewinsky was looking for 

2 0 anyone or what she. was doing tbzre? 

2 1 A No, I don’t rezall that, no. 

2 2 Q And you don’t know whets specifically she went once 

2 3 shegottotbearea? 

2 4 A That’s correct. 

2 5 Q Oocesbekfttbeana,doyou rWranberWhethershe 

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2 different hallway? 2 

3 A I do not know. 3 

4 Q Let me ask you about your comment earlier. Special 4 

5 Agent Moore. that you also bad seen Ms. Lcwinsky in the 5 

6 residence of tbe White House. Tell tbz ladies and gentlemen 6 

7 of the grand jury how many occasions you tunember about the 7 

8 residence? 8 

9 A Thae could have been - them could have been two. 9 

0 three, four. maybe. times when I would see ber carrying 0 

1 items, like brow-o envelopes and stuff like paper or 1 

2 SOmething. 2 

3 Q And where in the Residence - I’m sorry. I believe 3 

4 you used the word, “Mansion.” W&e in the Mansion did you 4 

5 soz this? 5 

6 A It would be on the ground floor. 6 

7 Q Is that actually UK basunent level floor? 7 

8 A No. 8 

9 Q The floor above that? Well, let me ask it tbis 9 

10 way. Thae’s a floor that the public comes in when they take 10 

il B tour of the White House. Thy come in thnxtgb ti Visitors !I 

!2 Centa and tbey come in tbe East Side of the White House. 12 

i3 And that is really kind of a Sub-ground or almost a sub- !3 

!4 ground level: is that correct? !4 

!5 A Well, that would be the floor she came in on. That !5 

floor. 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

Page 19 

Is that the floor where you saw her? 

Yes. 

And was she in black on those occasions? 

As I recall, yes. 

And did you have any conversation other than 

exchanging hellos with her on those occasions? 

A No. 

Q If you put together the two times that you remember 

seeing her in the West Wing, the ed tbew with the 

two, three of four times you saw her in the Mansion, we’re 

talking anywhere about four to six times that you saw MS. 

Lewinsky. Is that fair to say? 

A That’s corn&. 

Q And that was spread out over a six-edict-Mona 

period in calendar year 1997? 

A That’s correct. 

Q Working backwards from January of 1998. 

A That’s comet. 

Q Now during those occasions in that six-to-eightmonth period, did you know her name at that time? 

A I’m tIOt sure. 

Q Do you know if she addressed you by name? 

A That, I’m not sure of either. 

Q Do you know when you did come to learn her name? 

Page 20 

A I think is wbcn I saw it on TV. 

Q Now did you ever have an occasion -- well, let me 

ask you this. To your knowledge. has Ms. Lcwinsky ever been 

alone with the President? 

A Not to my knowledge. 

Q And was &em ever a time when you wex. on a post 

in the West Wing or in the Residence that you saw Ms. 

Lewinsky go to an area or into a room where you knew the 

Pxsidezu to be? 

A No, there is not. 

Q So going back to the vqy first incident you talk& 

to us about where you wae ah let’s say.0 outside the 

Cabinet Room. 

A Yes. 

Q The Fresidmt would have been in the Cabinet Room? 

A That’s correst. 

Q Did Ms. Lcwinsky go into the Cabinet Room on that 

occasion? 

A Not that I know of. 

Q If you were at- I’m presuming you wem at m 

because the Fnxic!ent was in the Oval Office. 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know if MS, Lewinsky went into the Oval 

Office on that occasion? 

A No. I do not. 

1 

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1 Q Did you ever hear from any other Secret Serviw 

2 agents or officers that Ms. Leuinsky was alone with the 

3 President? 

4 A No, I have not. 

5 Q And did you ever hear from any other Secret Service 

6 agents or officers that Ms. Lewinsky was with the President 

7 whether they were alone or not? 

8 A 1 heard a rumor to that effect. 

9 Q And what was the rumor that you heard? 

0 A The rumor was that Monica was with the President 

I and Panetta, his former Chief of Staff saw them, 

2 Q And who did you hear that tumor form? 

3 A That, I cannot R?Cdl. 

4 Q Do you remember where you were when you heard that 

5 rumor? 

6 A No, 1 do not. 

7 Q Were you at work? Were you working when you hearc 

8 it, do you recall? 

9 A Yes. 

!O Q Do you remember whem you were working when you 

!I heard that? 

!2 A No. 

!3 Q Do you remember if you heard it from one other 

!4 person or whether it was a group of People talking? 

!5 A No. 

Page 2; 

1 Q Now was that the only time you ever heard a rumor 

2 like that? 

3 A No. 

4 Q Okay. What other rumors did you hear? 

5 A Again, I don’t recall from whom, but that -- how 

6 was that? I saw Monica at a fundmiser and 1 asked her, 

7 “Hey, I haven’t seen you at the White House in a long time,” 

8 just by visual observation. And she said, “I’m no longer at 

9 the White House.” And I said, “Okay.” 

IO And then just in general conversation with -- 

I1 again, with whom, I don’t know, hecause that’s a long time 

I2 ago, I said, “Kemember that girl? She used to work at the 

3 White House.” 

4 He says, “Yeah, she’s no longer there.” 

5 I was like, “Oh, okay.” 

6 And then the guy said, “Yeah. That’s the girl,” he 

7 said, “that liked the President.” 

8 And I was like, “Oh, really?” I left that alone. 

9 Q And who was that individual you spoke with? 

10 A 1 have no idea. 

!I Q Do you remem her where the fundraiser was? 

!2 A It could have heen at the Washington Hilton, I 

!3 think; but, again, I’m not sure. 

!4 Q Do you remember what the event was? 

!5 A No, I do not. 

i-l 

I 

Pagem 

I Q Was it a Saxophone Club event to your knowkdge? 

2 A l-bat. I don’t recall. 

3 Q Do you nxall uben that happened? 

4 A No. I do not. 

5 Q Was there eva a time when you bad a conversation 

6 with anyone in the Oval Office area in the West Wing about 

7 M.s. I_ewinsky trying to arrange a visit to come in and see the 

8 President? 

9 A No, I do not. 

0 Q Did you ever have such a conversation with tbe 

1 president? 

2 A No, I did not. 

3 Q QrMrs.Cnrrie? 

4 A No, I did not. 

5 Q Or Ms. Lmvinsky? 

6 A No, I have not no. 

7 Q Were you ever aware of any efforts by Ms. Lewinsky 

8 to get in to sez the President. to get into the Oval Office? 

9 A No. I was not. 

0 Q And I want to focus specifically on November of 

I this past year, the second half of the month. rot@@ the 

2 Tbanlcsgiving end of th: month Did you cvex htar anything 

.3 from anyone in the West Wing about Ms. Lcwinsky trying to get 

:4 intoscetbePrsident? 

!J A No, I do not recall that. 

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Thursday, July 30,1998 

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1 Q Okay. Do you recall whether you saw Ms. Lewinsky 

2 at all in November of this past year? 

3 A No, I don’t recall. 

4 Q Did you ever hear of Ms. Ixwinsky complaining about 

5 not being let in to see the President towards the end of this 

6 past year? 

7 A No, I did not. 

8 Q Did you ever speak with the President about Ms. 

9 Lewinsky for any reason? 

0 A No, I have not. 

I Q I just want to go back and try to clarify something 

z that you said. You saw Ms. Lewinsky at some point after she 

3 had left the White House. You saw her at this fundraisxx is 

4 that right? 

5 A That’s correct. 

6 Q All right. Was that before or after these 

7 occasions that you’ve described when you would see MS. 

8 Iewinsky in the Mansion and in the West Wing? 

9 A It would have lxen after. 

0 Q Does that h&p you in any way by to estimate! when 

I this fundraiser took place? 

2 A No, it doesn’t. 

3 Q I mean can you even say that the fundraiser was 

4 this past year, two years ago, three years ago? I 

5 A Honestly, I couldn’t say. I 

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1 Q How certain are you that tbzse four, five or six I Q Okay. During that conversation did she tell you 

2 occasions you told tbe grand jury about whn you would SOT 2 why she had left the Wh.itc House? 

3 Ms. Lewins’ky in the White House, bow catlin are you b.: 3 A No, she did not 

4 those took place in the last two-thirds of 1997? 4 Q Okay. 

5 A Well, I’m certain that tbcy happened prior to me 5 BY MR. SUSA5m: 

6 seeing her at the ftmdraiscr. 6 Q7 Q And you can’t even place that fundraiscr within the 

8 year, two years, tlnm years? Do you remember wbctbR ir was 8 

9 before tbc President was - I’m sorry. 1 cut off your 9_ 

0 answer. You can’t even place that within 0% two or three 

1 yearsago? 

2 A No, I can’t. 

3 Q Doyoummanberwhabcrtbefundraiscrwasbefore 

4 th: President was rcelccti to a second tern or after? 

5 A I believe after be was rce!ectcd. IS 

6 Q Do you know wizti~~ when you would see Ms. Lewinsky 16 4-k 

7 in the West Wing and the Mansion she worked at rhe Wbitc 

8 House? 18 m 

9 A Yes. Yes. 19 A No. 

io Q And do you know wbctber she was a paid cznplo3pe at 20 Q So someone with a blue pass could go in any gate? 

I1 that time versus an intcm? 21 A Yes. 

12 A No, I do not. 22 Q Do you know wixre Gate m is? 

i3 Q Okay. How do you know she. worked at the White 23 A Not right off. 

14 House at tbe time you saw her? 24 Q How about Gate- 

!S A Sbe was wearing bcr blue pass and she’ll be 25 A No, I do not. 

Page 26 Page 28 

1 carrying paperwork. I Q Have you ever worked a gate as a member of the PPD? 

2 Q Explain to the ladies and gentlemen briefly what a 2 A No, I have not. 

3 blue pass is. 3 Q If you had been a member of the Uniformed Division, 

4 A Tbe white House has passholders and everybody that 4 would you have occasion to work a gate? 

5 works in the complex bas a blue pass. 5 A Yes, you would. 

6 Q Is that for all kinds of white House anployees? 6 Q DO you know where Gate m is? 

7 Let me ask you to distinguish bctwom, say, a butler, a 7 A No, I do not. 

8 staffa? 8 Q How about Gate-? 

9 A All employees have tbe blue passes, even interns 9 A Gatee? I’m not familiar with it. 

0 have blue passes. 10 Q All right. Special Agent Moore, I’m going to ask 

1 Q And how sure are you as you sit berc today that you 11 you to step outside thr door for a minute or two, and we will 

2 saw a blue pass on Ms. Lewinsky on the occasions when you saw 12 be back with you in a moment. 

3 IXX? 13 A Thank you. 

4 A I’d say 90 percent sure because it’s part of our 14 (Witness excused. Witness recalled.) 

5 job to look at the blue passes and, if they don’t have them. 15 THE FOREPERSON: Special Agent, you understand 

6 tc teR them they need to get it or get a trnnporary pass. 16 you’re still under oath? 

7 BY MR. GALLIGAN: 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 

8 Q Could I just ask a couple of questions about the 18 BY MR. SUSANIN: 

9 conversation you bad with Ms. Lewinsky during tfr: fundraiser? 19 Q Special Agent Moore, I have a few questions from 

10 Do you recall at tbc time whether you knew ha name at that 20 the grand jurors to put to you. 

!I point? 21 A Yes. 

!2 A I didn’t know her name, no. 22 Q You had testified about rumors or at least a rumor 

!3 Q You’re sure that you didn’t know her name at that 23 ahout the President and Ms. Le~in&y. One of the grand 

!4 point. 24 jurors asked whether you ever heard rumors about the 

!5 A Yes. Ijustknow faces. 25 President and any other women? 

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I A Jennifer Flowers. 

2 Q Anyot.bcn? 

3 A No. 

4 Q You also testif& about seeing Ms. Lewinsky 

5 carrying papers in the West Wing wben you were ate anM 

6 I) And at that time sbe either would have bum an intern or 

Thursday, July 30, 1998 

Page 31 

that was it. That’s the rumor that I heard. 

Q Okay. What wcrc they doing according to the rumor? 

A They ~tzre just there together is what I understood. 

Q Okay. Why did that qualify as a rumor? I presume 

the President is with people from the White House all the 

time. 

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a paid staffer of the White House: is that correct? 

A That’s correct. 

Q Is there anything inconsislcnt bcn~een her job and 

seeing her in those areas with papers? 

A No. there is not. 

Q You also testiF& about seeing Ms. Lewinsky at a 

fimdraiser and mentioning your exchange with Ms. Lzwinsky 

about not working at the white House to another member of the 

Soxet Service. One of the grand jurors bad a question that 

you seaned to say without hesitation. “A little bit lata I 

told him about the conversation.” “Him” being a reference to 

the other Secret Service Agent. 

Based on your testimony. tbe question from tix 

grand juror. in effect. was it seems more probable than not 

that you would know tbc identity of the person you upre 

talking with. 

As you sit here and testify today, and some of 

tixse events might be triggexd by your testimony, can you 

recall who you were talking to? 

Page 30 

1 A No. I cannot. No. 

2 Q Do you know that it was a him rather than a ha 

3 &II you spoke with? 

4 A More than likely. because of shifts. Tbcre an: not 

5 many female agents. I’d have been just talking to tk guy 

6 next to me. 

7 Q why did you say, “I told him about the conversation 

8 with Monica.” 

9 A &cause again, I assume -- there are guys on tk 

0 shift and most puys would have -- I mean we would have 

1 noticed Monica working in and about the white House. I don’t 

.2 member her being on the shift that day. I don’t mnanber 

I3 who was on the shift that day. 

14 Q You said that you never had a conversation. a 

15 substantive conversation with Ms. Lewinsky. 

16 A That’s corrcet. 

17 Q Did you ever overhear any conversations betwren Ms. 

I8 Lewinsky and anybody else? 

19 A Not tbar I can recall. 

,O Q You said t&t you heard a rumor about Mr. Paxtta 

II finding Ms. Lewinsky with the President: is that right? 

12 A That’s correct. 

13 Q Now what was the specific rumor? 

!4 A That Mr. Panetta saw tbe President -- the President 

15 and Ms. Lewinsky in the Oval study. iust Ms. Lewinskv. and 

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A That, I don’t know. I mean that’s just tfK: way I 

heard it. 

Q Well, was there a gist to the rumor that there was 

something improper going on? 

A Yes. 

Q And what was the gist of that? 

A That was never clarified. It was just that they 

were together in the Oval study and Mr. Paneua dismissed 

her. 

Q So you never heard, as the rumor was passed along, 

you never heard any more detail about what they were doing? 

A No, I did not. 

Q But was the impfication to the rumor is that they 

shouldn’t have been there alone together? 

A Yes. 

Q Or that it was in a way that was improper? 

A Yes. 

Q And why did you perceive that as the gist of the 

5 rumor? Was there something about the language in which tl~ 

Page 3, 

1 rumor was told to you or facial gestures or body language? 

2 A The language -- exactly. Yeah. 

3 Q Please elaborate. 

4 A Well, the facial gestures, the body language, you 

5 know. Exactly. That t~)e of illustration. 

6 Q Was it the way the namer was said? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q Can you tell the grand jurors, do a little role 

9 playing here, tell them how it was said to you. 

0 A Well, basically, it was said that, “Have you heard 

I the story?” 

2 

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“What story?” 

“Mr. Panetta caught the President and” I don’t 

think -- I don’t even know -- again, I didn’t know the name 

at that time, but they described the young lady always 

wearing black and I think she has blue eyes or something, 

“the young lady that wears black in the Oval study. And Mr. 

Panetta dismissed her.” 

And I was like, “Oh, really?” And, again, I try to 

stay away frmn rumors and innuendo. 

Q But was there any doubt in your mind there was an 

implication as to them being there in a way tlq shouldn’t 

have been? 

A Yes. 

Q Yes, there was a doubt in your mind or tbexe was no 

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I doubt in your mind? 

2 A No, no, no. That was -- restate the question. 

f Q Was thae any doubt in your mind that the 

I implication of that rumor was that they were doing something 

s they shouldn’t have been doing or were there in an improper 

5 way? 

7 A 

g 

9 Q 

3 kr? 

1 A 

2 Q 

3 A 

4 Q 

Yes, that they were there in an improper way. 

BY MR. GALLIGAN: 

When you say, “dismissed her,” do you mean fved 

Well, he just told her to leave the area. 

Leave the Btea. 

YeS. 

And was it said to you why she was told to leave 

5 thearea? 

6 A No. No. 

7 MR. SUSANIN: AH right, sir, I’m going to ask you 

8 to step outside again for another moment. 

9 (The witness was excused at IO:06 a.m.) 

0 (Whereupon, the taking of the testimony before a 

I full quorum of the Grand Jury was concluded at lo:06 a.m.) 

2 ***** 

‘agem Thursday, July 30, 199E 

m.. 

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Diversified Reporting Services. Inc. (202) 2962929 
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2919 

MC-302 (Rev. S-19-94) 

OFFICE OF THE DEPENDENT COUNSEL 

Date of transcription 08/03/98 

RICHARD S. "DICK" MORRIS, white male, 

home telephone was interviewed 

in the presence of'DAVID LENBFSKY, 

la East 48th Street, 

Attorney and Counselor at Law, 

New York, New York 10017, office telephone 

MORRIS was immediately advised of the personal and 

official identities of the interviewers and the purpose of the 

interview. MORRIS thereafter provided the following information: 

MORRIS is currently employed as a Political Consultant 

and a Commentator for FOX TV NEWS. During 1995 and 1996, MORRIS 

was employed as Chief Strategist for the CLINTON-GORE Campaign. 

MORRIS has never been a government employee_ 

MORRIS first met BILL CLINTON in November 1977. MORRIS 

was employed as a consultant for CLINTON during the Arkansas 

Gubernatorial Campaigns of 1978, 1982, 1984, 1986, and 1990. 

MORRIS has never met MONICA LEWINSKY and first heard 

her name on January 21, 1998 when the matter broke in the news. 

MORRIS has had conversations with President CLINTON, 

NANCY HERNREICH, and BETTY CURRIE about LEWINSKY. 

MORRIS recalled on January 21, 1998, he received a page 

from NANCY HERNREICH and when MORRIS responded to the page, 

HERNREICH requested that MORRIS telephone the President. 

At about 12:OO p.m., that same day, MORRIS telephoned 

President CLINTON and LEWINSKY was discussed during this 

conversation. MORRIS recalls being told by President CLINTON 

something to the effect of "The charges aren't true. I didn't do 

what they say I did. What they said, I didn't do, but I did do 

something. I am not sure I can prove my innocence." 

MORRIS telephoned President CLINTON again at about 

11:15 p.m., that same day. 

President CLINTON said: 

In response to MORRIS' inquiry, 

"1 told you these charges aren't true." 

Investipation on 08/01/98 at New York City, New Yorfflcr 29D-LR-35063 

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2920 

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29D-LR-35063 

Continuation of OK-302 of RICHARD S. "DICK" MORRIS ,on 08/01/98 ,bgc 2 

During one of the above telephone conversations, MORRIS 

recalled telling President CLINTON that,,,the President had a 

reservoir of forgiveness by the American public, and that NIXON 

had made a grave mistake by "hunkering down," and that the 

President should consider "playing outside the foul lines of the 

legal process by going around it, by going to the American people 

and asking for forgiveness." MORRIS recalls telling the 

President that even if there was a technical violation, the 

American people would forgive the President, if the President 

appealed to them frankly. 

When MORRIS inquired about the legal situation, .the 

President mentioned there might be gifts and taped messages. 

MORRIS recalled telling the President to not think like a lawyer, 

but to think like a politician and as long as the American people 

are on your side, STARR would not be able to hurt you, even if 

there was a technical violation. The President made no response 

to MORRIS' advice. 

MORRIS telephoned President CLINTON at about 7:30 p.m. 

on January 22, 1998, and spoke briefly with the President, who 

requested MORRIS to call back later. 

At about 9:00 p.m., that same day, MORRIS again 

telephoned President CLINTON. During this conversation, 

President CLINTON told MORRIS something to the effect of, "There 

are some people who think they can run me out of office over 

this, but you don't think they can, do you?" MORRIS agreed that 

"they" probably.could not. 

On either January 23 or 24, 1998, MORRIS again 

telephoned the President to wish the President well, advise that 

he understood the scandal, and that he was only calling as a 

friend. MORRIS recalls these comments were made to the President 

briefly, and the remainder of the conversation involved the 

President's State of the Union address and whether or not the 

LEWINSKY matter should be mentioned in the speech. 

On January 26, 1998, MORRIS again attempted to 

telephone President CLINTON, but rather spoke with NANCY 

HERNREICH, who told MORRIS that the President would like to speak 

to him directly, but that the President could not. HERNREICH 

also told MORRIS that HERNREICH had been instructed to tell 

MORRIS that all future conversations would have to go through 

MICKEY KANTOR. 

MORRIS also recalled sendins flowers to, and having a 
2921 

OK-3022 (Rev. 8-19-94) 

29D-LR-35063 

Continuation of OIC-302 of RICHARD S. "DICK" MORRIS ,On 08/01/9S , Page 3 

brief telephone conversation with, BETTY CURRIE after CURRIE's 

first Grand Jury appearance. This conversation was not really to 

discuss LEWINSKY, but rather a support call to wish CURRIE well. 

MORRIS has no recollection of a telephone conversation 

with President CLINTON on April 7, 1996, at 5:10 p.m. MORRIS 

mentioned during 1995 and 1996, he probably spoke to President 

CLINTON approximately 500 times. Just before the elections in 

1996, MORRIS spoke with the President almost on a daily basis and 

has no recollection of this specific conversation. MORRIS 

speculated the telephone conversation was related to campaign 

issues, probably advertising. 

conversation call. 

It would not have been a general 

MORRIS has spoken to no one, except his wife, his 

priest, and his attorney about the interview today. 
2922 
2923 

! 

1Rc:GmndhnyPmceedhgs Multi-Pagem Tuesday, August 18, l! 

P4 m1ncl STMLS Dxxaxm COURT ?uR mu D?.STRIcT OF ccx.unBIA 1 PROCEEDINGS 

________________x 2 whereupon, 

I” RE: 3 RICHARD s. MORRIS 

GRANDJURY PROCZeDIWGS : 4 wascaUedasawitnessmd,afterhavingbeenfifitduly 

5 sworn by the Foxperson of the Grand Jury, was examined 

____--___-------~ 

6 testified as fouows: 

Gr.,,d Jury Roan "0. 2 

united State, oi*trict court 7 EXAMINATION *or tbr DisVIct ot Columbia 

3rd ‘ constitution, W.Y. 8 BY MR. BENNE’lT Washington, D.C. 20001 

9 Tuesday. Auqu.t 19. 1998 Q Good afkrnoon, Mr. Morris. 

The uelmony or RICHARD 5. ncmus "1, taken in the 

10 A I-Ii. 

pr.,.n.x it . tull puonm of Grand Jury 97-2, bpm*l-d on 

11 Q MynameisJackieBenne%tandseatedtomyleftis 

September 19, 1997, cunencing at 1:43 p.m.. betore: 

12 Jay Apperson, my colleague. We just met with you a mar 

JAc?xK w. B&wIsTT, JR. 13 agointhehallwayforthefirsttimeL Istbatccurect? 

SO- NISENB!3RG 

Deplty Indqen.lent Counsel 14 A Yes. 

JAY APPSRSON 

A,ncI.~ Independent Counsel 15 Q Ail right. Before we begin, you're appearing taday 

Office of Independent Counrcl 

1001 Fwmy1vmia av*nue, Y.W. 

16 pursuantt.oasubpoena,isthatcorrect? 

suite 490 North 

Washington, D.C. 20004 17 A Yes. 

18 Q AndIassume you’ve been told thai you’ve been 

19 asked to appear as a witness only, you’re not a subject, 

20 you’re not a target of this investi@ion. 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q AU right. NcmetheIess, it’s our practice to 

23 advise you of your rights. You are aware that you have a 

24 ri@to&usetoanswer anyquestioatbetruthful-t 

25 which might tend to incriminate you personally; you’re a% 

“1TNEsS : 

CONTENTS 

P.qt 2 Pq 

1 of that’l 

2 A Yes. 

Page 3 Q IfyaQ aoswourqwstions,tklscaclswaxcould 

4 bcuscdagainstyouinsomcfutuxp~,youundastand 

3 5 that. You have a right to consult with an attomcy. 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q And I undastand you have an attaney preset witb 

8 yououtsidetbegrandjurymomtuday. Istbatcorrect? 

48 9 A Yes. 

10 Q Andwbatisbisname? 

11 A David Imefsky, Ltntf-s-ky. 

12 Q Andkisyourlocalattonxy? Istbatcorxct? 

13 A From New York. 

14 Q New York? All right. h4r. Appuson is 8oiog to be 

15 conducting tk questions, at kast here at tk beginning. 

16 WcmaybtjoincdbySolWise&aginafcw moments. In fact, 

17 Icxpectwewill. Doyouhaveanyquc5tionsbefoxcwcbcgin? 

18 A No. 

19 Q Would you like a cup of watu? 

20 A Yes. Actually, I’d like a d& Co& but I’ll take 

21 wata. 

22 MR. APPERSON: Water is all nn havt to offer. 

23 AJUROR: R@arCokc,nodict 

24 THEWlTNESs: I’lltakexgularC&. 

_ 25 h4R. BENNETTI OlcZy. Do mkweicc? 

-cl”_, 1 l-l_- 

P98 

- 

;e 3 

and 

neslt 

0 

me 

:e 4 

4 
2924 

page5 

1 A JUROR: Ice? 

2 A JUROR: No. Them’s no ice. 

3 THE WITNESS: I don’t seed ice, just caffeine. 

4 MR. BENNETT: Okay. 

5 A JUROR: It’s hot. 

6 MR. APPERSON: It’s warm. 

7 A JUROR: It’s hot. 

8 AmOR: ‘Ihereatecokesinbw. 

9 A JUROR: Yes, but I don’t know if we have any ice. 

0 A JUROR: He said be didn’t need ice. 

1 A JUROR: He didn’t need ice. 

2 A JUROR: He wants the Coke. 

3 MR. APPERSON: Warm is fme. I want the water. 

4 A JUROR: Don’t confuse me, Jay. 

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

6 BY MR. APPERSON: 

I Q All right, sir. Give us your name, please, for the 

8record 

9 A My legal name is Richard S., as in Samuel, Morris, 

:O M-o-r-r-i-s, but I’m known as Dick. 

:1 Q All right, sir. And you’re currently residing in 

12 New York? Isthat correct? 

!3 A Yes. 

14 Q And how are you employed? 

15 A Self-employed. I’m a political consultant and a 

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Q Okay. IguessIcz’sstartbyaskingbawbng 

you’ve known Bill Clinton and in wbat capacity have you ban 

involved with Mr. Clinton. 

A I fmt met him in early Novanbu of 1977 and I’ve 

scrval as his political consultant on and off far the attim 

intavaungp&od. 1handkdllisfustracefargovemorin 

1978. I did not work with him in 1980. I handlal his races 

in ‘82, ‘84, ‘86 and ‘90. I was not involved in tbc ‘92 

campaign. And I handled his reelection in ‘96. 

Q Allri&~sir. Aadasfarasnon-specitkally 

campaign, official campaign related contacts, since 

Mr. Clinton has bccomc presidenf have you ken in contact 

with the President and, if so, in what capacity? 

A Yes. Duringthcf~ttwoyearsofhis 

administration, ‘93 and ‘94, I met with him ahout 10 or 12 

times. Emmy two or months we would get to_pdhcr just for a 

chat and gcnaal advice. 

Then in November of 1994, aftet the Republicans 

tookovaCongrss,hcaskcdmctocombaclrMdworkforhim 

fulltimetobelphimgetmekztcd. Andtlxmfarthe 

balana of ‘94 and thtough ‘95 and ‘96, m wue in constant 

contact. Iwasworkingonhiscampaign. Andsincethe 

election of 19 - sina my resignation in August of 1996, 

we’ve spokm probably 20 times by phone. WC haven’t met each - 

1 othusinatk4. 

2 Q Okay. In a factto-face meeting. 

Page 7 

In Re: Grand Jury Pmeedings MUlti-PllgCm Tuesday, August 18,1998 

3 A Right. 

4 Q Allright. Letmeaskyouwithrespccttoyour 

5 comments about after ti ‘94 &&ions and you coming to work 

6 forhimfull-timc,whosc~wercyoucmploycdbyandin 

7 wbatcapacityin connection with that rcqu&? 

8 A I was anploycd by the ClintonGom campaign as a 

9 seakgist and I was a consultant to tk ClintonGore 

IO campaign and tbt Danccratic National Ccamnittec. 

11 Q 

12 A 

I3 Q 

14 A 

15 Q 

16 A 

Okay. Did you have offices at tk White House? 

No. 

Wksewueyouroffias? 

And I was nevcc on the public payroll. 

CkaY. 

My offias wen at tht campaign kadquarters at 

I7 2lst and hf. 

18 Q Qkay. AnddidyoutnmtwiththcPmsidcntbdxen 

19 1994andthtredection? 

!O A Yes. 

!I Q whacwouldyougnaallymcetwithtkPrmident? 

!2 A Garuabyintbercsidmce,but I’ sintk 

!3 ovaloffice. 

!4 Q Qkay. Now,howabouttkFitLady? Didyouhave 

!5 contactwithlKrduringthistimepaiod7 

Page > 

I A Whichtimepcriod? 

2 Q l3etwmn’94whcnyouwueaskedtocomebackfull 

3 timetoworkonthcra+ctionthroughtlxekction. 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q Okay. What was tk natum of your contacts? 

6 A Iwouldcallbafrequmtlytobricfbuonwhat 

7 wasgoingon,togdbrradvicc. Itricdtomakeapractia 

8 duringmuchofthcpaiodofmmtingwithhaevaywcekor 

9 two~andmwcreinprenyconstantcontact. 

IO Q Allright. Wacthaecvamcetiqswithtbetbnx 

II ofyou,tbcRcsi&mt,thcFnstLadyandyourseb? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q Howofttmwasthatandwastbattbenorm? 

‘4 

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5 

A No. Thacwcmonlyfourorfivesuchmcetiqs 

and they occurrui in Novcmbq Dccunbcr and January of ‘94, 

‘95. AftutheatdofJanuq,Inevcchadammtingtomy 

recollection alone with tic Prmidcnt and the First Lady. 

Thacwuesomclar@7groupmc&gswherebotb 

wue present togdha, but relatively few. Most of the 

ma&igsthatIbadwiththcF~tLadymrcdimctlywith 

haorwiththeRsidenfnotwiththetwooftbemtogether. 

Q okay. whenyousaythclargat~vm&ziogs,“‘~ 

was pmsalt for those? 
2925 

InRe:GrandhxyProce=bgs Multi-Page= 

I 

Tuesdav. Aumst 18.1998 

-I 

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typically convad on Tuesday, Wednesday orMy nigha 

inthcWhiteHou.semsidatceaaditbeganasjusttk 

Pm&dent and myself and tbcn tk manbaship of it gradually 

apandedovutbetwo-ycarpaioduntilbythetimeIleft 

thuewaeabout25pcoplethatwueinthem&ings. 

Q Okay. Andwuetbesubjoctsoftheseme&gsin 

geDaalt==7 

A campaign stmtcgy, advatiscmnts, polling, 

pOlitiCdI,ldlY&,kSllCpOSitioaio&nspondiogtOyoUall, 

and working on tile Pm?i<’s Kekdion. 

Q Qkay. Letmaskyou,wbmwastbcfvsttinieyou 

evuhcardtbenameMouicaLminsky7 

A January 21.1998. 

Q Allright Riortothattime,doyourecallany 

discussions with anyone ut the White House concuning the 

Residmt’s involvewEnt with an intull? 

A No. 

Q Allright. Howon January2lstdidyouhearthe 

nameLow&l@? wa?thatfromprcssreports? 

A Intbcmodia,justlikeevqbaiyelse. Yes. 

Q Allright. Andb’sdirectyourattmtiontothat 

daywhaiyoureadthatandfoundoutthroughthemdia 

mports. Didyouhaveoccasiosltospeakwithanyoneintbe 

WhiteHousethatday7 

A Yes. 

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Page 11 

“Hcwantstospeakwithyo~“andtbarIbcldwfaramornent 

andththtRsidcntcamconthcpbone. 

Q Okay. Did you speak with Nancy Hun&b that day? 

A Yes. 

Q okay. Tellus-wc’llcomebacktotbcNcnts 

with&%tychrric. 

A F’iit,Ihavenockarmcolkctionasto 

*-Iwouldn’tbecutaintbatBettyasopposzdto 

NancyanswuedtbcphonewhatIf~tcalkdin. Itbink 

it was Betty, but I’m not sure. 

Q Allright IfitwasnotBetty,itwoukllikdybe 

Ms. Ho-m&h? 

A Yes. IfitwacnotBetty,ifIgotanybodyalu 

thanBettyarNancy,IwouldasktospeaktoNancy. 

QMright 

A AndtlutNancywouldtakecamofit. 

Q Olcsy. 

A Nancywasbasicallymycontactpmson_ Bettywas 

somcouewhoIwouldgotbroughreallyonlyfortkditect 

purposeofeitberspeakmgtothePmsidmtorpassinge 

nlessagetohim 

Q Allright. okay. Sotellm-I’msoqA AndthatIdidspeaktoNancy. 

Q TellmebrieflywhenyouA AndtbmId.idspcaktoNancylatrrthatday. 

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Q Okay. Tell us how that came about. 

A Ihadbeut-Ihadnotmallybanintouchona 

constant basis witb tbc Pmsicknt for some time until about 

tbcmiddleofDecunbuof1997. Wejusthavegonethrough 

paiodswlxzem’mintouchandpaiodswherewe’mnotand 

thiswasoueofthcnots. AndaroundtbcmiddleofDecu.nbu 

of’97,webegantotalktocachotbaafairamountand 

largelylookingtowardthestateoftbeunionspeechattbe 

end of January of 1998. 

Onthemosningofthe2lstofJanuary,wknIwoke 

up,IheatdabouttbcLcwinskyscandalandatabout11:oOin 

tkmorn&IreccivedapagefrorntkPresidmt. Actually, 

Ithinkitwas llz25intbemmning. 

And,asithappaxd,Iwasont&subwayattk 

timeandIwaslituallywatrainandwknIgotofftbe 

~Igotanotberpagcat11:38andIwasjustbebwthc 

PlaccwhetIwasgoingsoIf~I’d~itwhenIgot 

to that office. And I called at about 11:45 on Wednesday 

morning. 

HishabitwastopagemethroughEkttyCurrieor 

Nancy Hanreich, old frimds of yours, and the number tbey 

would give out is -1 which was the F’resident’s number, 

andIrespondedtotbepageandBettyCurrieanswuedthe 

phone. Yes. 

E&tyCurlieanswuedtbephone. AndsheJaid, _ 

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Q 0%‘. 

A %‘henwewereatrang@ llowtbePn&kntaudI 

wouldspeakattbzendoftbeday. 

Q olcayA Whichwasourseumdconvefiationoftheday. 

Q Okay. But your be& nzaA.kctioa is probably Betty 

thatyousp&etoinitialIywhcnyouretumedttrepage. 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. Andwhatexactlydidsbesaytoyouwhenyou 

Mlm.MZdtkpagC? 

A “~wantstotalktoyou.” 

Q All right. ‘He” meat&g the Presi&rtL 

A ‘IbePresidmt. 

Q Allright. Anddidyoutbenspeaktotk 

President? 

A Excuseme. Somethingjustcameintomymind 

Ithink-Ithinkthatearlyinthemoming,likearound 

9:3Oor 1O:OOinthemotniugwhenIftireadtheLewinsky 

thingIcalIed--IthinkNancyandIsaid,”Ifhewautsto 

talktome,hecanpageme.” 

Anditwasn’tamessageforhimtocallmeback, 

but I would !kqzntly do that and still do, when there’s a 

timethattbePnident’sunderanykindofstrssorany 

kindofdifficultyandIfeeltbatImightbeofbelp.1 

usuallyjustoUinaadleatemyn\m3berandsay,”Ifbe 
2926 

InRe:GrandhyPmeedin~ Multi-Pagem Tutxuiay, August 18,1998 

I ‘ 

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Page 12 

wants to reach me, he can.” Or “I’ll be out of the country,” 

or “I’ll be in Argcntinq” or whatever and that way they can 

reachme. Soitwasthatkindofathing. 

AndIfranklydidn’texpecttohearfromhim, 

but then he did reach me. And that was probably - I would 

typicalIy leave the message with Nancy, not with Betty. 

Q AlIright. Sowheoyouretumed-tbaeafter, 

wfrenyougotthepageandreturnedthepageandspokewith 

BettyCunie,asbestyourecalIbeingBettyCunie,sbc 

said, “The Prcsidcnt wants to speak with you.” 

A Just “He wants to speak with you” 

Q “He wants to speak with you” Did you then hold 

and speak with the president? 

A Yes. Yes. 

Q Okay. How long did that conversation last? 

A It’shardtotellwbenyou’retalkingtohim,time 

seems to -- you know, you’re always feeling like you’re 

keeping him from a nuclear war or something, so you’re not 

surehowlongitis,butmyguesswouldbc1Oto15minutcs. 

Q AlIright. whatdoyourecal.lwasthediscussioo 

as specific as you RXalI? 

A Sowhatareyouasking? 

Q Tell us what your amvcrsation was. 

A Youmeante~youtbewordsasnearlyasIcan 

IWIll? 

Page 14 

1 Q Yes. Pkase. 

2 A Okay. This is - this may not bc completely 

3 accurate because it’s mangr, but it went something like 

4 this. HegotonthcphoneandIsaid,“Youpoorsonofa 

5 bitch. I’ve just read what’s going 011. I feel for you 

6 treaxdously. I know just what you’re going through, I’ve 

7 been there. I’ve been through it ftnd my heart just goes out 

8 to you incredibly.” 

9 And he said, “Oh, God. This is just awful.” 

0 AndIsaid,“AllIcantellyouisI’vebeen 

1 through it and if you live through it, you can improve.” 

2 ?henhesaid,“Idid.n’tdowbatthcysaidIdid, 

3 but I did do something. I mean, with this girl, I didn’t 

4 dowhattheysaid,butIdid-butIdiddo--butIdiddo 

5 something.” He repeati it like twice. 

6 Andthenhcsaid,“AndImayhavedooeenoughso 

7 that I don’t know if I can prove my innocence.” 

8 And I said, “Then’s a vast capacity for 

.9 forgiveness in this couutry.” 

!O Hesaid,“l’hezemaybegifts. Igavehergifts, 

1 butonlyaftershegavethemtome. Andthemmaybc 

2 mesages on her phonG_ machixz.” 

3 Isaid,“Entryandexitrecordsfromthe 

4 residence?” 

5 And he said, “‘Ihere won’t be any.” 

I 

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AndIsaid,“Look. ‘I%isisahesaid&esaid 

situation.” 

‘Ihe President said - it may bc at that point that 

besaidtheremaybegiftsor~likethat,itwasin 

that -- that flame of the conversation. 

lhen - okay. Then I said, “Look. You may have 

to play this thing outside the foul lines,” which means 

transcend the legal process, “go over the head, go over 

Starr’s head and go to the public and ask them for 

forgiveness, tell them what you did and ask them for 

forgiveness. There’s a great capacity for forgiveness in 

this unmtry and you should cons&r tapping into it.” 

Andhesaid,“Butwhata.bouttbelegalthing? 

You know, the legal thing? You know, Starr and perjury and 

allthat?” 

A.ndIsaid,“Thisisnotalegalpmazss,thisisa 

political process. You’re the only human being in the 

colmtry-” 

I’m sorry, let me intenupt my narrative to go back 

tothebegil&goftheumvemation. 

MR. APPERSON: Cutainly. 

THEWITNESS: After-likeastheseccmdortbird 

thingthatIsaidtobim,Isaid,“ItoccurmdtomcthatI 

maybethtonIysexaddictyouknowandmaybeIcanlx.lp 

you.” 

I 

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Page lt 

And&en--yeah. Andthenwe-andthenwe 

talked about “I didn’t do what they said I did.” 

BY MR. APPERSON: 

Q All right. As you’ve already revealed. 

A Yeah. 

Q Allrigh4si.r. 

A Then he said, before we got into the bit about 

forgiveness and that stuff, he said, “You know, ever since 

the election, I’ve tried to shut myself down. I’ve tried to 

shut my body down, sexually, I mean.” 

Q Ail right. He said “sexuaIly, I mean”? 

A Yes. 

Q Alllight.sir. 

A “ButsomctimesIslippedupandwiththisgirlI 

5 just slipped up.” 

6 And I said -- I said, “I know. You know, addicts 

7 falloffthewagon.” 1sai~“Thisisanaddictionjust 

8 like drugs or alcohol and you just have to recognize it and 

9 f&t it.” 

0 Andthenherepeated,“Ididn’tdowhatthcysaid 

I Idid,butIdidsometh&.” 

1 And I said, “You just got to confront it and you 

I just got to deal with it pemmally and politically and 

1 you’ve got to ask for the country’s forgiveness. 

i ‘hen we got into the f6igiveness issue. And I 

PlWP 12 - Pqc- 16 
2927 

In Re: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Pagem Tuesday, August 18,1998 

Page 17 Page l! 

1 said, “‘lb OIK thing you’ve got to avoid is getting trapped 1 A That’s cxmuzt. 

2 likeNixonintoarigidpo~ofdenialbecausethatgives 2 Q Didyouthxaftadotbat? 

3 you no flexibility, no room to maoeuver, and you get stuck. 3 A Yes. 

4 And presidents only get kilkd when they get stuck. But on 4 Q Okay. Wbat exactly did you do after that? 

5 tbe other hand, if you play this outside the foul lines and 5 A ItypedupaqucstionnaircandIfaxalittothc 

6 you really let it out, people are going to cut you slack on 6 companytbatIusctodopoll@andIaskcdtbn-and1 

7 it.” 7 askaItbanifthcycoulddotbispoIlto~~waincSday 

8 nm he said, “You think so?” 8 nigbttk2lst. Tbcysaid~coukL 

9 And I said, “I think so.” Kind of tentatively. 9 I~‘Bccax&lwboyoubaveasintaGcxxson 

0 And he said, “I don’t know.” 10 this, because m’d b&a have gxxi security.” And tk 

1 And I said, “Why don’t we poll it?” 11 peoplcattkpollingunnpanyassurcdmctbattlxfcwouldbc 

2 And be said, “How would you do that?” 12 @odscnlfity. 

3 And I said, “!&me way &poll evaything.” 13 AndIwrotcupaqucstion&rcandIfaxaiitto 

4 And be aaid, “What do you mean?” 14 tbemandItoldthrmdoasmsnyintavimsasyoucangetand 

5 AndIsaid,“I’lIreadthem,“meaningtbcvotenin 15 Itbinktbcydicl4ooor5oointc&ws. 

6 the sample, “paragraphs of different sceoarios and see how 16 Q Allrigbt. WbatwastkpoJlingcornpanythatyou 

7 theyreact. Maybeyou--IbesitatetosuggestthatIdoit, 17 used? 

8 butmaybethisisn’tsomethingyouwanttodowithyour 18 A Action Rcscerch. 

9 xgularpoll!&S.” 19 Q IsthatinNcwYork? LocatalinNewYark? 

0 And he said, “Wheo could you do it?” 20 A No. 

1 And I said, “Tonight.” 21 Q Wbecistbatbcatcd? 

2 Andbesai~“Callmelatetonightwiththe 22 A h&lboumc,Fbrida. 

3 numben.” 23 Q Allrighssir. Andtkcafkr, didyou-wlle0 

4 And I said, “Yup.” 24 wucyoucxpcctingtogcttbcnztumsfnnntbcpoUingdata7 

5 And he said, “Okay.” Click. 25 A Tbatnigbt 

Page 18 Page 20 

1 sothatwastheftrstc4mversation. 1 Q AllrigW Yousubsopuentlybadalatc-nigbt 

2 Q AlIright,sir. Letmeaskyou,didhcmention,as 2 convusation with tk PKsident. You indicated you spoke 

3 you’ve indicated, his concern about the legal aspects and 3 a&n. Istbatcomct? 

4 perjury? 4 A Yes. 

5 A (Nodding affkmatively.) 5 BY MR. BENNETF 

6 Q IwanttofocusoothaL Wasthereany-didbe 6 Q Bcforcm~intotbaffortboscofuswki 

7 atthattimereveraltoyouthathchadbeendeposedinthe 7 don’t know, what particularly does tk polliag caapany do? 

8 Paula Jones case concerning Ms. Lewinsky? 8 Iassumtbcycall,butisitablankct,natioowi&kind 

9 A No,butIhadxadthatinthenewspaperandthat 9 of0 wasthereferencehemade. 10 A It’s a national sample, a statistically balanad 

1 Q O~Y. 11 samplcoftkcoun~. AndIsukdtllanthcqlI&0nstobc 

2 A But be didn’t elaborate that. No. 12 asked. Thcyhavc5Oor1OOpe0pkatpboncbankscvayalght 

3 Q okay. !!k then was no specific discussion of his 13 whodotksesurvcysamundtbccumtry. Thcyasktbc 

4 depositicm. 14 questions and tkeu late at night afkz thcy’vc fti t&y 

5 A No. 15 scndmetbzrcsults. 

6 Q Didbcsayanythingeiscaboutperjury? Was that 16 MR. BENNEIT: olray. 

7 theonly~f~~asyou’vegivenus,“thelegalthing”and 17 AJUROR: Wcll,couldyouk.llussomcoftk 

8 thepejmy? 18 qucstionsyouaskcd? 

9 A No, just what I’ve said. I appreciate your 19 THE WTINESS: Yes. F&t I want to anpbasizc tbat 

0 prompting because it may help mc remembcrotber~from 20 thePlraidaIthadnoroleinde§igningtbcscquc9tioas. He 

I it, but I’ve tried as much as I can to give you the actual 21 vay rarely did have a mk in d&guing questions, except at 

2 text of the txmversation. 22 tbcvrrybq$Mingofournlationsbipwllilchewas 

3 Q AlIright,sir. Andtbemfkr,youhadmderstood 23 Prcsidmt. Oftbcmugblymaybc15OpollsI’vccunductcdfor 

4 thattbePresidenthadauth0ri2edy0Ut0d0tbepOlling~ 24 b&probably 145oftbanhcncvusawtkqucstionsuntilit 

5 You suggested _ 25 wasova. 

Ppoe 17 - Paop 30 
2928 

In Rc: Grand Jury Procadhgs MUlti-Pagem Tuesday, August 18,1998 

1 1 

Page21 

1 And this was a situatioo in which I felt that it 

2 wouldbethebenerpartofdiscretionformenottoshowhim 

3 the questions becausz I didn’t want to be forcing him to make 

4 admissions to me in the course of approving or *proving 

5 tbequestionnaire. Ihadnzadenoughoftbepublicstuff 

6 thatIcouldsummar+ dliIlgsinthequestionnaire without 

7 llis approval. 

8 sotheftitimetbatheactualIyheardthe 

V qufftions that I’m going to tell you about was wbm I gave 

0 himtheresultsofthequestionnaire, afterithadti 

lasked. 

2 I’d be happy to provide you with the questionnaire, 

3 if you want. My attomey has it. 

4 BY h4R. APPERSON: 

5 Q That would be helpful, but if you could - for the 

6 grandjury’sbenefifgiveusasenseasbestyourecallat 

7 tbispointandwewiIltalcethatlateron. 

8 A Sure. Itwasaboutfoursinglespacedpages. It 

V began by asking, you know, do you have a favorable view of 

10 Clinton, rating his job pzrformanoe as president? Do you 

!1 thinkthathe conmlittedadul~inthepast? Doyouthink 

!2 befxequently eonmlittuIadulteryintbepast? Doyouthink 

!3 thathehas committed adultery while he is president? Do you 

!4 tbinkthathefrequentlyhas committed adultery while he is 

!5 Dtident? 

Page 2i 

1 Tka I read than the public newspapu accounts of 

2 tkL+&nskyaffair,tbcpaulaJonesdeposition,tbc 

3 rdationshipwithLcwins@,the-mrythingthatwasindle 

4 public-thcLindeTripptapcs,~LindaTripp-whatw 

5 wasinthcpublicscctoroaJanuary2ls~Iputintothc 

6 qustionnaixcandIreadittotkm. 

I AndIsaidbasedontksefact.s,doyouthinktbat 

8 thcRcsidcnt-doyouapprovc-doyoudisappmvtca 

9 approvcofthcRsident.sModucSdoyouthinkhcshouldbc 

0 removcdfromoff~~~~yoUthinksshouldrsigninofficc? 

1 ThmIlcaddxznaJtatanenttbatIsaidisa 

2 stamt the President might give in which - which was my 

3 ~,nothis-inwhichbcsaidIdidhavcasQNa1 

4 ldationship with Ms. Lcwin&y, I was involved with bu, I 

5 sbouldn’thavebcm,Ifell,IwasafiawedhumanbeingandI 

6 didthisandIaskfaryourfargivcncss,I’vcaskedformy 

7 wife’s forgiws, and a stamt that exposed a gxat 

8 deal of contrition. Not quik like last night, but Betting 

9 ttKze. 

‘0 Anditwasa-andIxadthattovo~aud&d 

1 iftkP&dcntsaidtbis,wouklyoubeinclinedtofoxg+ 

2 himornot? DoyoutbinkhcshouldbcranovcdfromofEiccor 

3 not? AndtharIsaidifthe~idmtadmitito~ 

4 pajuxy,shouldkbcrunov& IfthePrcsidentadmiaedto 

5 obstructiooofjusticc,iftbtPlffidcntadmincdthatkhad - 

Page 23 

1 toldh4onicaLewinskytolie. 

2 Noneofthesewerebasedonhisinformationtome. 

3 itwasallbasedonmysuppositionsoftheworstcase 

4 scenario. And that’s a frequent thing that I’ve always dune 

5 with Clinton. W&never things are bad, I always sort of 

6 imaginetheworstandseeifhecansurviveitandthenkind 

7 of work back from tlxae. So that’s what I did. 

8 TbenIsaiddoyoubelievethex’ssuchathingas 

9 sexual addiction, do you believe that Bill Clinton is a sex 

0 addict, do you believe John Kennedy was a sex addict, do you 

1 believethatifJohnKemKdy_ifyouknewnow--ifyou 

2 knewthen-ifyouhadlivedatthetimeJohnKennedywas 

3 president and knew of the sexual involvunents that you now 

4 knowthathe’shad,wouldyouliketohaveseenhimnzmoved 

5 fromOfflc.e? 

6 AndIthinkthatwasit. AndthenIaskedthem 

7 their race and age and sex and income and educational level 

8 andpartysoIeouldanalyzethedata. Thatwasroughlythe 

9 questiormaire, but I’ll give it to you, you can - you’ll 

0 see it. 

,I Q Allright. AndthereasonIaskedyouatthis 

2 point, your subsequent conversation with the President was 

3 approximately11:15thatIlight? Isthatumect? 

4 A Yes,rou@y. 

5 Q Okay. Didyouhavetlxpollresultsatthattime 

Page 24 

1 whenyouspoketothePresident? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Ail xight. Okay. We’llgetto that in aminute. 

4 1wanttoaskyoubef0reweleavethisearlierconvasatios 

5 beforeyoustartedthepoll&hemel3tioaedtoyouthat 

6 therewengiftsandtapedmssages. Did he expound on that 

7 atall? 

8 A No. 

9 Q Didyouaskhimfurtberaboutanyofthat? 

0 A No. 

1 Q Soyouhadnoideawhatthenatureofthegifts 

2were? 

3 A No. 

4 Q Orthenatureofthenxordedmessages? 

5 A No. 

6 Q Whatdidyou~derstandhimtomeanwbenhesaid 

7 that-inxsponsetoyourquestionofvisitorlogsandhis 

8 response that there would be none? What did you understand 

9 thattom? 

0 A Thatifhesawher,hedidsointheWestWing,not 

I inthe&stwing. 

1 Q Okay. And how -- in your mind, how would that 

3 affectwktberornottherewcnvisitorlogs? 

I A l’hattheywouldbelesslikelyforthczetobe 

5 visitor logs because if you tit the resi&nce, you have to 

Dnnn?1_D.7r77A 
2929 

In Re: Grand Jury Pmceedhgs Multi-Pagem Tuesday, August l&1991 

Page 25 

1 gctwavaiin,wllacasifyou’rcastFJf-bayou-hang 

2 around tk White House witbout any real roxxd of wbu~ you 

3 go. 

4 Q Okay. Did you uwkstand fran tk public press 

5 rqmrtsthatatthistimcMonicaLcwimkywasananploycenot 

6 of tk White House, but at tk Pcatagoa? 

7 A Ididnotundustandtbattbm,m. Imcan,I 

8 don’tkaowifIundastoodit~butit~‘tcntainto 

9 mytlkking. No. 

.O Q Allright. Okay. Approximatdywbattimdidyou 

,l lrccivctkpollKSultsfromtbccompany? 

.2 A About IO:30 or 10:45. I was at tk balkx that 

,3 nightand*I~Iealledtbemaodtbeydidn’tqtite 

.4 bavetbnnreadyandthcn~hadtknrcadyalialcbit 

.5 late& 10:3O,ll:OO, som&ng like that. 

!6 Q Okay. Didtbeyfaxthattoyou? 

17 A No. 

18 Q Readittoyouovatktelephooe? 

19 A oWiktekplxx~~ 

!O Q Allright. Anddidyourecordthepoll=ol@? 

!l A Yes. 

!2 Q Didyouevexreceiveahardcopyprintwtfromtk 

!3 eompanyoftbis? 

!4 A No. 

!5 Q It was simply convcycd by tek+one to you? 

Page 2c 

1 A By telephone. 

2 Q Allright. 

3 A Itoldtknnottogivemeahardrecordofit. 

4 Q AIlright. 

5 A BecauseIdidn’twanttberetobeocX?. 

6 Q Okay. Did you keep your notes of the results of 

7 thepoll? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Do you still have those? 

0 A Yes. 

1 Q Would you provide those to us a~ KxII? 

2 A Yes. It’s written down on the questionnaire. 

3 Q WY4 A l%eonlydocumentthe&severbeenwasthe 

5 questionnaire with the handwritten notes on it. 

6 Q A.lIright,sir. Afteryoureceivedthepo~ 

7 resuItsandmadethenotations,isit-thereafterI’m 

8 ~thatyoucakdthepresidenttiththeresults. 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q And we’ve establiskd the time. Tell us how that 

II conversation began. Who did you calI? Did you calI the 

12 President dke4ztly or Ms. Hernreich or who? 

!3 A Nancy Hanreich had told me earlier in the day, 

14 at about 4:00 or 5:OO she paged me, and she said, “Don’t fax 

!5 theresultstous,justgivetkmtohimverbaIIyoverthe - 

Page 2: 

I phone.” 

2 And I said I wouldn’t fax them, “Thanks for telkg 

3 me, but I wasn’t planning to fax them anyway.” And I said, 

4 “SowhenshouldIcallandwbereshouldIcalI?” 

5 And Nancy said, ‘Don’t call -- ” there’s a privaz 

6 n~~thatIhadfortbeResidentthatranginhis~oom 

7 without it going through any switchboard and she said, ‘Don’ 

8 caIlonthatnumberbecauseyou’IIwakeI-IiIkyup,cdlon 

9~whichistbeswitchboardn~~fortbeWhiteHouse 

IO IdidandtheResicknt-Itoidtheoperatorthal 

11 Iwantedtospeaktothepresident. TbeIksidentpickdup 

12 thephoneimdtid - either said, “Let me caU you back from 

L3 anotherp~“or”LetmetakethiscaUinanotherrocm_” 

14 I forget which, but he somehow switched phones. And then 

IS eitberbecalkdbackor-actuaUy,Ithinkhedidcall 

16 backonanotkrline. Andthen1hadaumversationw~~hi.n 

I7 aboutthereSultsofthepolI. 

I8 Q All right. Approximately how long was this 

I9 umvcrsation? 

10 A Aboutl5to20minutes. 

11 Q AIIright,si.r. AadteIIusashestyourecaIl 

12 whatwassaidduringthatconversation. 

13 A Isaid,“We&I’mwrong. Youcan’tteIIthetn 

14 aboutit,tky’IlkiIIyou” He saidnothing. Youhave 

15 to-justPage 21 

1 Q Hedidnotsay-hedidnotnxpond? 

2 A Hedidn’txspond. 

3 Q Allligh~sir. 

4 A TypicaUy, when I was giving the Resident advk 

5 hewouldoftennotrespond. HewouIdoftenjustlisknin 

6 siknceandinten-uptmeifhewankdto. 

7 SothenIsaid-tben1wmtthroughthe 

8 questionnaire andIbegantonzadhimcachquestionandRad 

9 himtheresuItsofeachquestionverbatk Andhewassiknt 

0 duringvirh&ytheentireprocess. 

1 Atonepoint,oneofthequestionsI&edwasdo 

2 youthi&beshouIdgotojaiI~asIreca&35perccnt 

3 ofthevokrssaidyes. AndtbenIsaid-Ithinkeitkr 

4 he said or I said, “They didn’t ask you about capital 

5 p-t, did they? You didn’t ask them about capital 

6 punishmat, did you?” But there was a little banter at that 

7 point. 

8 AndIsaid,“They’rejusttooshockedbythis. 

9 It’s just too new, it’s too raw.” And I said, “And the 

0 problem is they’re wiIIing to forgive you for adultery, but 

: not for pe+ry or obstruction of justice or the various 

2 other things.” 

,3 And I said, “They’re even wiILing to forgive the 

4 conduct. They’re not wilIing to forgive the word. In other 

:5 wol&ifinfactyoutoIdI%nicaLewinskytolie,theyGin 
2930 

nRc:GrandJuryRocaxhgs Muk 

Page 2! 

1 forgive that, but if you committed subornation of perjury, 

2 they won’t.” 

3 Inotherwords,itwaskindof-almosta-if 

4 youwereconvictedofacn’methatsoundedthatbad,we 

5 won’t. And you’ll s8e tk results. 

6 After each question, we asked about removal from 

7 offloeandIthinkitgotuptoaborrt48or49percenttbat 

8 saidyesandthatwasjusttoohigh. Ithoughtitwouldk 

9 intk1owthirtie&thegroupthatb&zallybatedclinton. 

0 Idonotrecallifthenwasdiscusionbackand 

1 forthasIreadhimeachofthemrmbers. Imeau,itmaywcl.l 

2 havebeen--kmayhaveasked,“Isthat35? Whatdidyou 

3 say, 35?” Or “Read me that again,’ or some&@ like that. 

4 But there was no substantive comnmxltfromhim. 

5 Q Allright,& IfImay,whileyou’reatthat, 

6 givinghis comments, did you have the impression he was 

7 makingnotesathisend? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q might. &abead,sir. 

0 A Yes. Idon’t--notinthesmsthatksaid, 

1 “Waitaminute,letmegetthat~“butintbt~sethat 

2 kwouldoftenaskmetonzpcatanumberorsomethinglike 

3that. 

4 Q Allright,& 

5 A lknwe--1umtinuedtogothroughitandI 

Page 30 

1 wasanalyzingitandIwassaying,“Youseehowitfalls. 

2 offwhenwetalkaboutaspecificuimeoraspecific 

3 offense.” 

4 IilzmealbcrinparticularthatIreadhimthat 

5 pamgraphabouthowIliedandIhadsexwithLewin&yand 

6 thatstutTandIwassortofwaitingforhimtointcm@ 

7 me and say, “But that isn’t true,” or “Lhat goes too far,” 

8 orsometh@likethat,zmdkwass.ilentthroughoutthe 

9 wholething. ThenD Q Letmejustgetthisclearlybecausewedon’tkve 

1 the particular document. What exactly was the - 

2 A I’d k happy to give it to you My attomey has it 

3 outside. 

4 Q Okay. But we’ll k able to identify clearly what 

5 tkstatementwas? 

6 A Yes. Sure. 

7 Q Allright. 

3 A I’Ilpointitouttoyoyifyoudon’t. 

? Q Allright. 

I A And then I said, “So you just can’t do this.” 

I And k said, “It just won’t fly. It just won’t 

2 fly.” 

3 And I said, “They’re just not ready for it,” 

I xIxzhgthevoters_” 

5 Andksaid,“Wel.Lweiusthavetowin.then.” _ 

Tuesday, August la,1998 

Page 31 

1 And I said, “You kt your ass.” 

2 ‘Iben the umversation proceeded for about three or I 

3 fourminu~talkiogabouttbestateoftheunioa,wemight 

4 havetalkedabouthaq,buttherewasnothingmoreoothe 

5IXwinskymatter. 

6 Q Allright,& 

7 A Ithinkkmayhaveaskedme,“ShouldIalIudeto 

8 thisinthestateoftheunion?” 

9 ‘-“’ AndIsaid,“Eitherinaverycursoryfashionat 

.o tkbe&mingornotata&thekeytbingistopunch 

1 throughwlthyourstateoftkuuion.” 

2 AndthenIpmbablysaid,-Ikbest&fensetothe 

3 Lewi&yscandalisagoodstateoftheunion@” 

4 Q Allright. Whatwasyournextcontactwiththe 

5 Resident after this conversation that night? 

6 A OII Thursday evening, at about seven pm_, roughly, 

7 IwasinmyapartmentinNewYork8 Q ‘Ihis is January 22nd? 

9 A Yes. 

0 Q Allright. 

1 A AndIgotatelephonecallfromanewspapa,I 

2 klieve it was USA Today, but over the last couple of months 

3 I’ve gotten phone calls on the Saul. subject and it could have 

4 been one of these publications, from USA Today, tk Daily 

5 News,tkNewYoricPost,theWa>cmPost_ 

Page 5, 

1 I’vegottalatkastfotxorfivcdiffaultoutlets 

2 thathsvceskcdmtbtsamtq~tion,soI’mnot~~h 

3 itwas,but’IthinkitwasUSAToday. 

4 Q Allrigh&sir. 

5 A Andthc~saidthatthx’salineontk 

6 tape, mcanhg tbc Linda Tripp taPc, tk hhiu! Lcwinskyninda 

7 TripptaPe,therc’salincontktaptthtreferstoa 

8 momntwhthcPrcsidentwaswithl&nica~hvingscx 

9 andbcwa.sonttcoclepbonctithyouiutbcJcffersmHotd 

D whzeIlivalduriogthisPaiodandthtyouwercwitbtbc 

1 pnwtitukwhoIwassubsoquentlyaposedtobavea 

2 lelationshipwithaIldthatyouwertllaving!3exwithbawhilc 

3 bcwasllavingscxwithLewinskyandyouwactalkingtoonc 

4 anothu. 

5 And I said., ‘That’s ridiculous. That’s absolukly 

5 crazy. It never hap@. It couldncvahavcpossibly 

7 w3w~PW 

3 ncRcsidalthBdn0ideatllat1wasdoingwhat 

3 IwasdoingandifhcbadknownIwouldhavtkenfircdin 

1 akmtba& AndIbadnoidcmhcwasdoiogwbathcsaid 

I be was doing. So it was just compk&y fan&X 

2 AndthenIsai&‘Tfyouprinttimt_it’snxkkss 

3 anduntllE~ Andtbcward’hckkss”ist&wonlyouuseto 

I killancwsstoxybecausethtmcansliisuit. 

I AndIsaid,“Soyou’dbe&rba~-“Isaid, 

Pan0 30 - D?no ?- 
2931 

InRe:GrandJuryprocc4dings Mllll 

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Page 3: 

1 “If you have it on hard evidence, which is you have heard the 

2 tapeandyoucansaythatit’soathattape,tbenyoucan 

3 print it and you’d better print my denial. But if you do not 

4 knowofyour&fthatit’sontbetape,I’mtellingyouthat 

5 it zxver happemed and if you print it, th: fact that you’re 

6 printing it will be re&ess and defamatory,” which means 

7 I’ll sue. 

8 Sotbeydidn’tpublishthestory. Wbenbehungup 

9 tbepbone,Iwasabs0lutelygle&landIpickedupthephax 

0 audIcalledtbeFVesi&ntbecauseIfelttbattbiswasproof 

1 tbatMonicaLewinsQwasmakingaUtbisgarbageupbecaus 

2 thishadnexrhappened Youknow,sbewastellingLirKia 

3 Trippthatthishadhap~andshemustbeanut,whichI 

4 hopcdthatshewas. 

5 SotbenIcalledtbePresidentandbewasintbe 

6 Whitei House. They told me be’s in tbe White House theater. 

7 IbelieveIsubsequentlyleamedthathewaswithArafafbnt 

8 I’mvagueonthat 

9 Andtbeusbersaid,“Hecan’tcumeout,be’sintbe 

!O White House theater.” 

:I And I said, “Can Hillary come out?” 

:2 And be said, “Just a minute.” 

3 And then the President came out and said, “I can’t 

14 taknow. what'sup?" 

!S AndItoldhimabouttlzUSATodaycallandhe 

Page 34 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

2 

2 

2 

2 

2 

2 

1 said, “Tbisisfalltastic. Thisisgrtxt.” Youknow,becausz 

2 wewembotbreallybappyaboutit. Andbesaid,Vn.t’s 

3 great. I’llcallyoubackin45minutes.” AndIsaid-or 

4 “callmebackin45mimIres.” 

5 And I said, Vii.” 

6 Aboutanb0urlater,Icalledbimbackandwe7 Igothim,Idon’trecallth:circumstaucesofit. Imean, 

8 atbisend. AndIsaid--andIsaid,“Iztmereadtbe 

9 &atementIgavetoUSAT0day.” Ibadintbemeantime 

0 writtena sta&nentandcalIedtbemback. 

1 And I said, “If you go with it, wbicb is reckless 

2 anddangerous,“andwbatevertbewordsare,”tbisismy 

3 &xtement, but only if you go with it. This isn’t your 

4 licensetogowitbit.” Andtbe statementsaidthat-I 

5 said,“‘Ihisistbefevaedfan~--thisisthefevered 

6 fantasyofateenagemind.” 

7 AndIsaid,“IfallofMonicaIxwin&y’scharges 

8area.s accurateastbisone,thensheowesthenati0na 

9 massive apology for completely taking us down fantasy lane,” 

0 orsxnnethinglikethat. 

1 AndItoldtbezntbatIwasplanningtobaveapress 

2 c0nferen~thenextday,fidaymornitl&rel~tbisfact 

3 and blasting Monica LewinsQ “out of tbe water.” Because I 

4 said, “Nobody’s going to believe this and this will kstroy 

,s bercredibilityoneveqtbingelsesbe’ssaying.” _ 

Page” Tuesday, August 18,199! 

Page 3! 

1 Andhesaid,“Yeah,whenIbeardaboutit,Iwas 

2 just ecstatic. It was great.” 

3 AndIsaid-Isaid,“l%isiswo&rful. A.nd,you 

4know,whentheczoumybearstheotber~mhertape, 

5 ifit’sasfanc~asthis,bercredibili~willjustbe 

6 destroyed.” 

7 And be said, “Yeah” 

8 And I said, ?be uxmtry’s nevet going to impeach 

9 aptidentovertbewordofa21-year-oldgirlonxnnekind 

0 offantasytrip.” Andwetalkedinthatveinf0ramoment. 

1 ‘l&nbesaid--andIsaid,“I’mgoingtoreally 

2 just rip ber t0m0rrow.” 

3 And be said, ‘You’d better be czeful. Don’t be 

4 toohardonherbBxusetbex’ssomeslightchancethatshe 

5 maynotbecoopgating witbStarrandwedon’twantto 

6 alieoateberbyanythiagwe’regoingtoputout.” 

7 And I said, ‘Ob, okay. Well - ’ 

8 Andbesaid,“Don’tdoanytbing~~~~tilwetalkin 

9 themorning.” 

0 And I said, ‘Fm.” 

1 ‘I%enbesaid,“Bytbeway,Dick,doyouknowtbe 

2 dateoftbe,ub-” tbis is his “a” it’s not mine, 

3 ~*thetinxwiththewomtm?” 

4 AndIsaid,aThatdoyoumean,sC 

s Andhesaid,Tbetime,youknow,withtbewomanat 

Page 36 

1 yourbote&theprostilu&youknow,listmiDginontbc 

2 calls?” Andbcwasrefaringtoanalkgatimtbattbc 

3 prostitll%wboIhadulaffairwithmadcwhiehisthatIhad 

4 Ictkrlis~inandavc&oponconvas&nswith~ 

5 hi&It. 

6 AndItoldtbeResidcnttbattbatumsnottm, 

7 IsaidWAsI’vcsaidMaretbiswasnottmc Ineverbad 

8 krcavcsdroponacunmationwithyou. WbatIdidwasto 

9 putthcphoacuptohercarfosoncminuttmIcouldka 

0 bigsimtandbaveberkartbatIwastalkizgtoyouandsk 

1 just caught tk sound of your voice.” 

2 Andksaid,‘Well,whatdatewastbat?” 

3 AndIsaid,“Sir,adozmtimes.” 

4 And k said, “Oh, all right.” 

5 And that was tk convamtion. 

6 Q Allrigbt. Ldmaskyoujustaqmstionwitb 

7 refamcetothatwb&we’rtkxe. Dur@tktimestbatB tbosedozattimeswbmyoumaybaveputtkpboncup,you 

9 watspcak@witbtkPresidmtontkt&pbooeandmay 

D kvcputtbcpborrcnptotbcw~‘searfarabrirftimc,as 

I you’vctcstz4duriDgtbosccoovcrsationsyoudonotknow 

2 wbomayormaynotbavebanwithtkRGdmtwbalyouuue 

3 spCakingwithhim. Istbatfairtosafl - 

1 A Yeg. Fair. Imean,samet&sIwimldbavetk 

5 imprcssiontbatkbadsraffwithhimorsmA&,butI 

PRUP 13 - P,Jnp 36 
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InRc:GnmdhuyProcadhgs Mllti-P8.p" Tuuday, August 18,1998 

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Page 37 

1 aeverhadtkslightestidea,imprssionorinklingofthe 

2 rumorthatthatstoryindicated,thatthenzwasatimewhen 

3 hewastalkingtomewhilehewashaviqsexwithfmybody. 

4 Q But you’re not able to exclude that possibility. 

5 A No. I wouldumsiderit remote. He would 

6 umstantlyengageincoovenationandtalkingandbackand 

7 forthandbyplayandthereprobably~timeswtrenhewas 

8 less than attentive in 150 phone conversations, but sex 

9 would be a little farfetched. 

0 Q Allright,& Now-- 

1 A Maybeitwouldbeooeoftbetimesheindicated 

2 pleasure at my speech draft. Anyway, go ahead. 

.3 Q All right. You indicated the President - you left 

4 the conversation, the President left it by “Don’t do anything 

S untilyoutalktomcinthemoming.” 

.6 A Right. 

.7 Q “Untilwtztalkinthemoming.” Didyoutalkwith 

.8 thePn&dCslttknextday? 

.9 A Yes. 

!O Q All ri&t. How did that conversation come about? 

!l A IcalledhiminthemomingandmywifeandIhad 

I2 spokenaboutitandwehaddecidednottodoapmss 

!3 umf&tTIKe be.cauX ever since the scauda& w&e both 

14 publicity averse in terms of, you know, being at the center 

5 ofafuestorm. And%--andshe-shefelttbatitwould 

Page 38 

1 kabadidcatodotkt. 

2 !SoIcaIkdbimbacktotcIlhimwewuenotgoing 

3 todotkp!tSshit. Before4 Q Andam luximatelywbattimcwasthatcallmadc? 

5 A I just don’t know. 

6 Q Intkmorning? Early? 

7 A I just don’t know. 

8 Q AIlrigh&sir. 

9 A Iknowthattkottncalls-Iknowtktimrsof 

0 tkWcdacsdayandtkThursdaycf&kcauscthercarc 

1 oUeidccvcntstfiatnlatedtoit,Iwasatarstaurantfor 

2 one and with ccunpany for anotlrr, but tk Friday eaII, I have 

3 justnoidaitittimeofdayornightitwas. 

4 AndIsaidtobim-andactually,IcannotkJI 

5 youwbcthaIcallcdhimorkcalledmt,Ijustcan’tttll 

6 youthat,Ijustdon’tknciw. Thatcallwasdiff~tdmn 

7 rbeotlrzsin~titwastklastoftkfiveplKmecaILS 

8 andkkd-Igot~imp~sionkbadmolcorlcssgoncn 

9 bisacttogcrherandkkdb&nwithhisattomeysandk 

10 kdtalkaitohissta!T. 

!I AndkforeIcouldtellhimIwasnotgoingtokve 

12 tkpresscon.fclmct,ksaidtomecitha”I’mgIadyou 

3 ~or’Hcrt’swhyIcalwyou.” Imc+Iwould 

14 ahvayscalIhimbazausekwouldnevcrcaIlme,kwouIdpage 

!5 me,andIdon’tknowifIcaIkdhimonmyownorrctuming 

Page 39 

1 hispage. 

2 And be said, “Listen. My people don’t think it 

3 would be a good idea for you to have that press conference 

4 becausewe’renotatallsufethatLvinskyisgoingto 

5 eooperatewithstarr,*thinkthez’ssomechancethat&e 

6 won’t, and we don’t want to alienate her.” 

7 And I said, “Well, that’s good because we’ve just 

8 talked about it and, you know, Eileen isn’t all that anxious 

9 formetoputmyneckonthechoppingblockagain,sowe’re 

.o not going to do that.” 

1 And he said, “Good. You know, my attorneys have 

2 talkedto~“itwasobvioustomeatthatpointthathehad 

3 spokentohisstafTandhi.satto~andthathehadcaught 

4 hellfromthemfortalkingtome. 

5 I’ve always felt - my nzlationship with the 

6 President has always been a very direct one and it’s always 

7 beentheobjectofanimusandcoocan on the other people 

8 aroundhimthatIdothat&auseIdon’tevergothrough 

9 channelsorthatstuff. Soitwascleartbattheyhadkind 

!O ofreadhimtheriotactaboutthat. 

!l And he said, “My attom don’t think it’s a good 

I2 ideaformetotalktoyou. Youeansayanythingyouwantto 

13 me,butIcau’tsayanythingtoyou” 

!4 And I said, “Because this amversation isn’t 

!S privileged.” 

Page 4ci 

1 And be said, “Right_” 

2 And I said, “Okay.” 

3 And then he said, “In all tk conversations, I’ve 

4 made clear to you that these charges aren’t true, haven’t I?” 

5 And I said, “Yes, you have.” 

6 Excuse me. In our convenation on Wednesday nigh% 

7 afterIRadthroughthequestioonaiIe withhim,hesaidto 

8 me explicitly, “And I’ve told you that these charges aren’t 

9 true.” 

0 And I said, “Yes, sir. You have.” 

1 Becauseearlitzbetoldme, “Ididn’tdowhatthey 

2 saidIdid.” AndIgottheimpressionthathewassayingit 

3 kind of for the record because, you know, he’d been fairly 

4 vagueinhisearlycorwrsationadinmyreadinghimthe 

5 questionnaire,Iwastakingsomelibertiesandpreslrmingthat 

6 thechaxgesweretrueinthethingandkwaskindofjust 

7 asse?t&thattheyaKn’ttrue. 

8 Theo k said to me on Friday, “I’ve told you these 

9 charges aren’t true, haven’t I?” 

0 AndIwomieredatthatpointifthenzwas 

1 somebodyelscintheroom,ifhisat@meyswercwithhim, 

2 becausesometimskwoulddotbat. AndthenIsaid, 

3 “No, I don’t - ” I said, “Yes, you’ve told me that_” 

4 Andksaid,“Youknow,thenzrrresomepeoplethat 

5 believetheycannmmeoutotofficeoverthisthin&but 
2933 

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you don’t think they call, do your 

AndIsaid,“No,sir. Idon’tthinktkycan.’ 

And I said, “FJecause it’s just your word against her word 

and,youknow,givenwhatweknowisontbetapes,she’~ 

come across as a nut.” 

‘Ibenhesaid-andtbenIthinkhesaid,”Okay. 

Talktoyoulater. Goodbye.” Click. 

‘IbenmynextcontactwasonSaturdaymcrning. 

Q IfImay,justtoclarifj’- 

A yes. 

Q Whenhetoldyou,nziteratedagai.nasbebadtid 

in his previous conversation, but said ona again, ‘I’ve told 

you these charges aren’t true, rig& Or “colXct?= 

A Yes. 

Q Hetoldyouthatafterhehadtoldyouthattbe 

lawyershadtoldhimnottomake statements to you? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. &ahead. 

A Buttobefairtohim,hehastoldme-inthose 

five conversations, he probably used the line “lkse clUrgeS 

aren’t true” five or six times. You know, I may not have 

recountedeachoftkminmys&atimdiscu&on,butitwas 

aconstant- themeofhi&thatthesecQnve.=tions 

UFerenottrlX?. 

Atthetime,Ihadnoideaofwhathcwastalking 

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aboutinsayingthat”Ididn’tdo~tbeysaidIdi4but 

Ididdosomething.” AndIhadnonotionofwhatkwas 

talking about. And I didn’t under&mdhowitcouldbea 

SXlall-&tionShipaCKithenwt. 

So I was -- I just didn’t unde&and it, but I 

wasn’t about to ask him questions about it. 

Q Didyouhavetbesenseofwbenh:said,“Yw~w 

thesechargesarenottrue,“thatthatwassaidtoyouto 

reassure you, to take any actions? For example, the polling 

or to cuntinue to give advice? 

A No,Ithinkitwas-Ithinkkdecplybelievedat 

thetime,andIguessstilldoes,thatthechargeswu=n’t 

true. Itbinkthatbthasa&ep~fundamentalbelief 

illhiSOWIlillllOCUKZ. 

‘Ibe President is -- there’s a lawyer running around 

inside of his brain and be’s very precise, if sometin~~ 

inaixula&inhisterminologywhichmeansthatsometi=he 

USZSWOdStbtWedl assumetomeanonethingbu.t”Black’s 

LawDictionary”saysthey~somethingelseandit’sthe 

“Black’s Law Dictionary” in his mind. 

And subsequently as I’ve watched this elabora& 

Iwould~,whichIdidaotthinkthen,Ididn’t~w 

ittben,thathe~ynothavecarsideredoralsextobe 

szxualrelationsandthathewashang&thingsonthatand 

I think that’s probably what k meant wkn k said that time 

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in the morning. You know, in the Wednesday morning 

CiUlVUS%tion. 

Q Okay. lxzmaskyouwithrefaeocctotkpoll 

thatyolltc&wi3opaidfarthepoll? 

A I did. It was about a S2000 thing, YOU know, WC 

didn’tbanahugcsamplcandwcdidn’truoit~thc 

computerandstuff. AndIdidn’twanttkmtobea& 

ofit,soIjustpaidtkiotaviewingcompaoymyself. 

Q Okay. Did you have discussions witb tk hident 

about your doiq that? 

A No. 

Q Chwbowouldpayfortkpoll? 

A No. Ididn’tcvcnbotkrhimwithtkmoney. 

Q MriBht 

A I’m ~oftklqalsituationbccausetkrewas 

no campaign at that point and tlrrefa it’s nally wt a 

campaigncontri~ninthat~butinany~tbc2000 

iswithinmy~eandmylegallimifsoItbougbtitaras 

okay. 

AJURW Didyouwriteackzk? 

THEWrrNE!Ss: we&1llaveanaccountwithtkmand 

IkceppaYingtbcmcb&sforalltbepollingtbatIdoand 

itwasoncofthc-itwasincludcdina$10,000checktbat 

I sent than for a bunch of diffmt polls. I’m not sure it 

waslO,butitwassom&nglihtbat. 

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BY MR APPERSON: 

Q sOit’sfairtosaythatthatwouldpotentiallyand I don’t know whether it does, but potentially it could 

count as an in-kind contribution, could it not? 

A It could Imean, it could Idon’tknow. I’m 

not an attorney. 

Q Iunde&and. AndI’mnotinapositiontoknowat 

thispointbastdonthatalone,butit’sfairtosaythat 

thereisnonzordatanycampaignentityorotb3wise-- 

A Right. 

Q -ofthatfact,havingbeenperhapsanin-kind 

contribution. 

ACQIECL 

Q AIIri&t.,sir. 

A InevertoldanybodyelseintheWhiteHouseorthe 

ClintoncampaignthatIdidthispoll. 

Q All right_ And you’ve receivedno personal 

reimburseme& from the Clintons for that? 

A No. Nor have I sought it. 

Q Allright. Youweregoingtoturntoyournext 

contact with the President. 

A Yes. 

Q Whathappea~~Iaftcrthisumversation? 

A Right. We&it--thenIcalledback,Ithink,on 

Saturday morning and Na6cy took the call and said, “Listen, 

n-“, 41 n--_ (1 
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Tuesday, August l&l998 

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k just can’t speak with you He’s just not - the lam 

don’t want him to speak with you. You have to talk to h&key 

Kantor.” And I placed a call to Kautor at about 5.m on 

Saturday. HcnevucalkdbackandInevcrcaIkdhimagain. 

And my next -tact with - my only otkz contact 

withClintcmovutkpknesineethwastbatonTucsday 

momingatabout ll.~b&xetkTuesdayni&tstateoftk 

unionspaxb,NancyHanrcichcalledmeandaskalmetofax 

anothacopyoftbcdraftIhedsarthimfarthcstattof~ 

union because k’d apparaotty lost tk fmt one. 

Q -r&t 

Page 45 

1 lxx knowk!dge or ba kstimony7 

2 A No. 

3 THE EOREPERSON: Now might k a logical time to 

4 takeabrcak. 

5 MR. APPERSON: AU right. We’ll take a break. 

6 THE FOREPERSON: A tavminute break. 

7 MR. APPERSON: And I’ll @you to @ tk document 

8 hyourattomeywhilew’reoutkbxak. 

9 THE-s: Yes. stne. Right. 

0 hfR_APPERSON: Tlwlks. 

1 THE FDREPER!jON: lhnk you. 

2 Ten minutes, ewybody. 

3 MR. APPERSON: You’ll Deed to step out. 

4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

5 (Wiis ueused_ Witness &) 

6 BY MR BENNEIT: 

7 Q Mr.Morris,youarestillundcroat.handyou 

8 nxognhetbat? 

9 A Yes. 

0 MFLB-: Andwtbaveaquorum? 

1 THE FDREPJZRSONZ Yes, m do. 

2 h4R.BENNBl-R Andthat~nounautiwhdpersons 

3 presult? 

4 THE FOREPERSON: Absolutely no ~llt that is not 

5 authaizrdtohchert. 

A And I did. And that’s tk - that’s it. 

Q Allright. Intkdrafttktyouprepaxdfortk 

stak of he union, did you inch& any nfacnct to tk 

Monica Lcwins@ matia? 

A No. 

Q Allright Wactkreanyootationsontkdraft 

with respect to not addressing the Lminsky matter? You 

mahoned that you bad - 

A No. 

Q urigfrt. 

A ItwasadrafttbatactuaUypredatedtkLewinsky 

mat&. 

Q AIlright. Andyoudidn’tmakeanychangeswitb 

respect to that. 

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A (Shaking head negatively.) He didn‘t use much of 

it. 

Q All right. You had a conversation with Betty 

Currie after this matter of Lewinsky broke. Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q AIlright. TelIusaboutthatumtactwithBctty 

Cunie. 

A Icakdher,Ithink,ri&aftershetestified 

hcreandIwasjustsomovalbyhowharriedshclooked 

goingin. I’vealwayslikedBettyandIaenthexabig 

ba&etofflowersandIjustcalIedhertosayhangin 

there. 

Q Okay. Hadyoubadanydixussionswithhcrabout 

bertestimonyortbeInvin&ymatterbeforebergrandjury 

testimony? 

A No. Nor since. The phone call last&five 

seumdq probably. 

Q Anytbingothcrtbanhcrthankiqyouforthc 

flowers? 

A Idon’tknowifskcalkdmetothankmeorI 

calledberjusttosay,youknow,hxmginthere. Idon’t 

cvenknowifshehadgdthcflowersatthcpointatwhich1 

called. ImayhavedecidedtosendtbeflowersafterIhung 

up, but I sent her flowers that day. 

Q Andtherewasnodiscu&onabouttbesubstauczof - 

Page 4a 

1 BY MR. APPER!SON: 

2 Q All right, sir. You’ve provided tk Office of 

3 Independent Counsel a fivqage documcat. Is that correct? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q AndisthattbepoUingquestions? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Andyournotationsthatyou'vealrcadytestif~ed 

8 abouttoday? 

9 A Yes. 

D MR.APPER!SON: Canwemarkthatasanexhibit? 

1 MR.BENNElTz Wewillmarkthiswithtoday’sdate, 

2 whichisAugust18,we’limarkit-istbisGrandJury 

3 Exhibit 1 today? 

4 THE FOREPERSON: Yes. 

5 MRBENNETC Okay.’ Grand Jury Exhibit 1 with 

6 today’s date, 8/18/98, and we’ll put your initials, RSM. 

7 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. RSM-1 

8 was ma&d for idcntificarion.) 

9 BY MR. AI’PE~ON: 

10 Q WhiIcthat’sbcingdonc,lctmgokdctoyour 

11 conversationwbe.nyougotbacktotbcResidentandtold 

:2 him3 A hrxlseme- 

,4 Q Yes,&? 

5 A Ithinkmyat&omey&tionedthatIwantedto 

D___ AC T1,__ ,r 
2935 

nRe:Grandhry-gs Multi-Psgem Tuesday, August 18,1998 

Page 49 Page 51 

1 clarifyananswer Igavethismorning. 1 forwfudwithtkpmscoofauU and k indicated, as you’ve 

2 Q MY. 2 trstS-- that “My pcoplc don’t think it’s a good idea.” Do 

3 A Or elaborate oo it. It relates to how I paid for 3 youIccalltbat? 

4 this poll, how I paid the interviewing house to do it. 4 A Yes. 

5 Ihadjustfinisbedapollwithtbemontbe 5 MR. APPERSON: Okay. That’s what I want to ask >uu 

6 President’sstateofth:unioospeechbcforetbeLewinsky 6 about. 

7 scandalbroke,whichwasamuchmoreextensivesurveyaada 7 MRBENNETT Oncmrmnt 

8 muchmorehigh-miadedoae,Imightad4snditpo~edtbe 8 (pausc.1 

9 varioustbemesthatbemightuseinthestateoftheti~ 9 BY MR. APPERSON: 

o speech. AndIhadtbesameint=iewiq houszdo&ispoll 10 Q Didk~wktht~cularpasons~ 

1 asdidthatpoll. AndthenIpaid,asIcanbestrecall,for 11 tkttbougbtitwasmtagoodi&a? 

2 bothofthepollsto@berwithonccheckwhichwaseither 12 A No. 

3 for 7000 or 10,000, I forget which. 13 Q He simply uscd tkt pbaase, “my people”? 

4 But I left the impression before, I think, that 14 A Yes. 

5 thex was a discrete $2000 payment for this poll and there 15 Q Wbodidyouundcrsmndbascdmtkcontcxtoftbc 

6 wasnofitwaspartoftbelatgerpaymentfortheentire 16 convezsation to wban hc was nfcrring to as “my people”? 

7 project. l%iswasi.nasensekindofatack-ontothatpoll. 17 A IassumckprobablyatkztmcantKaxlal&his 

8 Q All right, sir. Let me explore that a little bit 18 lawya,andkpmbablymcantsamofhiss&iorstaff. 

9 with you. Did you bill anyone for the polling with respect 19 Ikveaoideawk. Ikvenoick8astowhoitis,Ican 

0 tothestateoftheunion? 20 ~,butitwouldjustbca~. 

1 A No. IdiditmainlyforacolumntbatIwritefor 21 Q Allrigbfsir. JDmingyourconvesatioasas 

2 the Hill Magazine w&h is a weekly publication oo Capitol 22 you’vedcscriitlnnandtcstificdwithtbcResident,did 

3 HiIIandIpublisbedtheresultsoftbepoIIinthe 23 youkvtanycootactwiththcFPstLadyduringthistim 

4 newspaper,soitwasonlyincidently--tbematerialinthe 24 p&xl? 

5 pollwasofslYmeusetothePresidentinthestateoftbc 25 A No. 

Page 50 Page 52 

1 unionspeech,butitwasnotapolldesignedfartbestateof 1 Q Okay. Sotheoneatteqtthatyou-whenthey 

2 thetionspeech,itwasprimarilydesignedasapublic 2 wenintbetheatcrtospeaktoHillq,youneverdidin 

3 columnofwhatthePraidentshouldsayinhisstateoftbe 3 factspealctoher. 

4 tionspeech. 4 A ‘Ihat’sright. AndIwasonlytryingtospeakwith 

5 In other wordq it was not proprietary in that 5 berto@hertoputBillontbephone. 

6 senseandtbePre&&ntnzceivedtberesultsaloqwith 6 Q Allright. 

7 everybody else who bought a copy of the Hill. 7 A ‘I’hepresident. 

8 Q Okay. I stilI don’t understand clearly tbe $7000 8 Q All right. Did you have any discussions with the 

9 and the $2000 figures. 9 PresidentaboutyourqeakingornotspeakiqtotheFrrst 

0 A Idon’trecallifthecostofthefirspolIthat lo Iadyduringtbattimc? 

1 IdidfortheHillwasS5000orS8000,butitwasoaeofthe 11 A No. 

2 two. ‘Ihis poll was S2000 and I gave them a check for either 12 Q Allright. PriortoJanuary2lsfdidyouever 

3 7000 or 10,000 to pay for the $8000 poll for the Hill and 13 haveanydiscussionswithtbePnzsiclentumcemingtbe 

4 thentbisS2000tack-onthatIdidatthePresident’s 14 Paula Jones lawsuit and that litigation? 

5 request. 15 A Yes. Frequently. 

6 Q I see. Okay. But you paid regardless of -- 16 Q Allright. Whatwcretbcnahpeofyour 

7 A Yes. 17 conversatiooswithrespecttotIlat? 

8 Q -- which amonnt went to which poll. 18 A WelI,theywcxemainlycccupiedwithhowtoescape 

9 A That’s right. 19 politicaldamageinthelawsuit. Ispokewithbim-I 

0 Q Youpaidforbothofthem. 20 nzally couldn’t even cnuut tbe number of times, 50,60,100. 

1 A Yes. 21 It was kind of a constant topic of cu~ersation and it would 

2 Q AII right. Okay. Ge#ing back to when you got 22 alwaysrelatctowbatdidhe _’ tetbeoddsweretbatwe 

,3 bafzktothePnzsidm~Ithi&thcnextmomingafteroneof 23 could @ it delayed until after the election. 

:4 your telephone calls, after he said, “Don’t do anything until 24 1spokewithhimatoDepointaboutwbether-- 

:s youtalktome,“andyouindicatedyoudidnotplantog~ 25 IfeltthatitwasuntitMtbe-thatBeMett_his 

Panp 40 _ DC -3 ‘;3 
2936 

In Re: Grand Jury Promdings MUlti-Pagt= Tuesday, August l&l998 

I I 

Page 53 

1 attorney,putintbedefensethatas commander-in-chief he 

2 coul~‘tbetried,~chwasoneofthe~~ds,Ithink, 

3 fornottryingit. 

4 I urged him constantly throughout it to just make 

5 sure it’s handled after the election and not before. But I 

6 don’t - I don’t believe - but -- and hc would always tell 

7 me “I don’t know who this woman is; I’ve never had contact 

8 with her; the cm = totally untrue.” 

9 Q With respect to Paula Jones. 

0 A Yes. 

1 Q Allri&t,sk 

2 A TheLewinskystuffIcanbeverypreciseabout 

.3 becauseitwasonlysixorsevenmonthsagoanditwasa 

.4 disc~te period of conversations over a period of three days. 

S ?hePaulaJonesstufiwasoverthewfioleperiodoftimeand, 

.6 you know, there were constant coI1VersatiOnS. 

.7 Q All right. Did you ever have a discussion with the 

.8 PresidentpriortohisdepositioninthePaulaJones 

.9 litigation about the deposition? 

!O A No. AndI’mprettysureIdidn’tspeaktothe 

!I President about the Paula Jones case during all of ‘97 or 

!2 ‘98. 

!3 Q Okay. soinotherwords-- 

!4 A It only was during my tenure them, basically. 

!5 Q Isee. AndsoIthinkthatitflowsfromyour 

Page 54 

1 answer but let’s make it clear, you don’t recall ever having 

2 arlydiscussioowiththePresidentafterhisdeposition-- 

3 A No. 

4 Q - about his deposition. 

5 A No. Except for the commentsImadctoyouaboutmy 

6 conversationwithhimonthe21st. 

7 Q Yes,sir. 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Did you do any polling for the President with 

.O nzspect to the Paula Jones litigation? 

.1 A Yes. 

.2 QM_ coLmeYztiwiththat? 

.3 A Like that. 

4 Q O~Y. 

5 A Butneveronanyoftbefactualissuesashere, 

6 justhaveyouheardofthecase,doyouthinkthatshe’s 

7 right, do you think be’s right, does it make you less likely 

8 tovoteforthePresident,iftbePresidcotagrcesto 

9 apologize and X, Y, 2, do you think that that would affect 

0 your vote, if the President paid her a sum of money to settle 

I the lawsuit, do you think that would affect it. There were 

2 questions of that nahlnz. 

3 Q Allright. AndItakeitit’sfairtosayyou 

4 shaRdtbeXsllltsofthosepollswiththeF?esideot? 

5 A Yes. 

Page 55 

1 Q Andhowaboutthebillingforthosepolls? 

2 A ‘Ihosewereallpaidforbyeitkrthecampaignor 

3 the Democratic National Gnmnittee. 

4 Q Okay. Andwhatwastbesetupwithrespecttowho 

5 you would bill? 

6 A Wel.l,actually,wknIsay”Itookthepolls,” 

7 that’s a broad “I.” The polls ~TZ actually conducted by 

8 Pexm&Schoen,thepol.lingfumthatthePnzsidenthiredfor 

9 the election, and they functioned under my d&&m, but 

10 theydidthatpolling. l’hiswasdoneoutsideofthat 

II flamework. 

12 Q All right, sir. Have you ever discussed Kathleen 

13 willey with the PnzsideLlt? 

14 A No. 

I5 Q Whenisthef~timcyouhcardthename&Uhken 

16 W&y? 

17 A Wheoeverybodyelszdid,whenitwsrspublic. 

18 Q =a~. 

!9 A ImighthavehcarditearlierontheIkudgekport 

!O or~likethafbutnothingotherthanthat. 

!l Q Okay. Have you ever bad any dkussions with 

!2 anyone at the White House or with the president’s lawyers 

!3 umceming the release of willey docwXnts? 

!4 A No. 

!5 0 Do YOU rememberaftathe6OMi11utesin~ - _ 

Page 5r 

1 tbacwasarekzseofdocuorntsfkomthcWhiteHouse7 

2 A No. 1% in public ban wry critical of that, but 

3 Ididn’tspeaktotbanaboutit. 

4 Q okay. Wknyousayyou’vebomvuycritical,vht 

5 doyoumem? 

6 A Well,I’veinpublicandinthcmediarcf~to 

7 tl&astbesecrdpolicc,thcinvcstigativcojuationtbat 

8 theWbiteHouserunstosavageksepoorwancm wfwwtti 

9 sinisthattbcysaidycs. 

0 Q-right. 

1 A Orno. 

2 Q Allright. Now,istlmtobsvationtlmtyoumake 

3 b&on-limitedtotbzinstanczoftherekascoftbc 

4 wilkydcmuK¶m? 

5 A No. I’vebunvaycmcmaIaboutthcnlarscof 

6 Linda Tripp’s Pmagon file. I wrote a cohna criticizing 

7 that. 1% bcm vay conccmal about the published accuunts 

8 ofthingstbatBnxxLindscyhassaidtomnnen wbollavclKal 

9 considacdtobe-wbohavcbcmlookingattestifjhg. hd 

0 tbtthemofmyvariouscolumnsin~NmYorkPost~~ 

1 tbatthisisallwayovaTcac tionanditwillgcthiminfar 

2 moretroubkttmntkscxmrwdd. 

3 Q Okay. Havcyouhdanydiscussionswithany 

4 persons iu th White House about your obsavations with 

5 mpect to this practia that you’d obsad and writta~ 

Dq,nn <‘2 _ De-n CL 
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Q All right. Have you CVCT discusd with tbt 

Prcsidcnt(Han~clstattbcWhiteHouscthcissucof 

whethcrornottoinvokeexccutiveprivikgeaspartofthc 

hKk!paldalt Gnlnsel investigation? 

A I’mnot- AnydiscussionthatIhadwiththem 

wouldhavcbrmin’gSor’96and,atthettim,~wcrca 

wholesaicsofdiscussionsaboutwktlxztogivetbt 

COUlUlittec’S documcntsorwfdhatoassataprKkgeand1 

don’tnzallifthatxlatitoawitncssprivi)cgcna 

document ptivikge vis-a-vis Starr or vis-a-vis DIlc of tk 

congtcssional cQmmitt&s. 

They m not Gxtcnsive discussions sod my advice 

alwayswastogi~outmore~~thanIcss,togiveitI nV!m thought any of those fights ma& any political salse. 

ButIcan’tnzallbacktheniftherewuzanycxccutive 

privilege issues visa-vis your ofEce and witxsses, so I 

don’tthinlr~~soI.don’tthinlrIdi4butImight 

have. 

BYMR.BENNETE 

Q CouklIbxkupa mnmmt7 Idon’tthillkthls 

question’s bea askal this way yet, but you’w dcEcnbcd 

conwzsations you had with tbc President bc&ning January 21 

Page 51 

1 astbesGutingdareforthismatter,scandaL AndIhadtbe 

9 L sensethatatsomepointyougavetbePresidentadviceand 

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hadcommunicationwithhimandthatthatchangedatsome 

point. Is that UxTect or not correct? 

A Same-I’msorry,Idon’tunderstmdyour 

question. 

Q What is your relationship with the White House now, 

with Mr. Clintor& the Resident? 

A Oh I’venothadaumversationofanysortwith 

President Clinton s&e Friday, January 23rd. 

Q Allright. Sinceacoupleof&ysafterthis 

broke. 

A Yes. 

Q whyisthat? 

A Ithinkinitiallyitwasbecausehislawyexstold 

himnottoand~theytoldmetocallKantor,Itook 

the hint. Ciintoo is always kind of flitting in and out of 

my life or me in and out of his and when %‘re on, we’re on, 

and when we’re not, we’re not, and you just learn to accept 

that. 

Andthesyou~w,kstoppedaskingforadvice 

and I stopped offaing it and we just wrnt our sepamtc ways. 

Thc~contactthatI’vehadwithhimsincctbcnhasbcenI 

puiodically fax him advice on stuff, including a varidy of 

faxes, to p%e him to give tlx spach k gave ycstczday. But 

~anjustoncwaycammunicationsofmtohimwithM) 

qly fran him. 

Q Aadsoyourdircctcommunlcationorindircct 

communica&awithtkWhiteHouse,suchasitwas,wasonly 

forthevaylimikdtimeinthcfPstfewdaysoftkmattcr 

afta Jaouary 21. 

A Yes. ThatwuesomcpriortoJanuary21,not 

about Minsky, but - 

Q Right 

A Subsequent to January 21, that’s conuzt. 

Q Allright. Andthrnoincethattimc,wktherit 

wastialtotbeLosADg&s comn.xats or not, the public 

cclmmen~thatyoumadcthatrelatetotbewhiteHousescanto 

bemoEcriticalinsomeways. YoulIrzltionalthsaxt 

polia &ma. 

A Yes. 

Q Whoareyourefcningtowknyoutalkabouttk 

wlliteHousesaxetpoliaopcmtion7 

Page 6( 

1 A Terry Iznmer. PaUadino, JackPaliadino. Betsey 

L ? Wright_ To some extent Bruce Lindsey. ‘I& White House 

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F~episode. AndIbelievetben&be.enapattemof 

at&king people who are witnesses who in some way have 

implicated the President and I think that it’s Nixonian and 

counterproductive and I believe it stems more from Hillary 

ClintonthanfromBillandQ Whydoyousaythat? 

A BecauseIlrnowthembothandIdon’ttbinkBiIl 

doestbatsortofthing. Hillaryoftendoes. And1 

thinkthatthere’sa_andit’sapattamthatIfeelcan 

amsumethe~nn.justasit comaxxd Nixon’s 

. . admmskdm, and I’ve written a lot of colunms warning 

about that. 

Q You mentioned a moment ago that you took the 

hint about calling Mickey Kantor. I’m not sun I understand 

that. 

A Well,tkytoldmetoeallMiekeyandtbenIdid 

andbedi~‘treturntbecallandthatwasamessage,that 

I should not be in touch with him any more, aad I didn’t. 

Q ‘EerewerearticlesthatItbinkwerepubli&edin 

the course of the 1996 campaip thatdescribedthebmch 

within the campaign for reelection and sort of pitted you on 

one side and you had mentioned earlier your ability to have 

direct contact with tk Pltsidellt dating back to your, you 

Page 57 - Paoe 60 
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know,daysinArkamasintbclate’70s,vI?rsussomcoftbc 

IJE!sident’s then curTent advisors. I Rxall Genrge 

Stepbanopoulos, Harold Ickes - 

A yes. 

Q ItbougbtMickeyKantorwasintbatA Mickeywasmorewithmethanhim. 

Q Hewasmorewitbyou? 

A Yes. 

Q Allrig& Andtbat’sreallytbegistofmy 

question. wllat is your rclationsbip, what was your 

Elationsbip, with tbesz various otlxz advisors of the 

PEsideIlt? 

A DuringthetimeIworkedtke? 

Q Duringtbctimeyouwofkedtbereandsincet.bcn. 

A sincethen,none. Duriag-we&I’vehad 

occasional contact, bu! not much I’ll tell you that. When 

IworkedattbeWbiteHousc,Iwas-therewas-itwasa 

um.stantstateofwarbeiwzenIckesontbeonebandand 

myself on the other. 

Ibadbeenbroughti.naftertbePresident 

wasdcfeatcdintbc1994electionandtbePrcsidcntin 

effect didn’t fue anyone, but be sort of hired me to 

replacetbemandtbeydidn’tlikeitverymucbandwebad 

fundamentally different views about what tbe Presi&Ilt 

should do. 

I advocated much m01c of a centrist unnsc and 

balancingtkbudgetandissucsoftktsortandhisad~ 

wcnmuchmoxeb&cralandIfelttbattkybadgottcnbim 

intotbchotwatcrtbatkwasinandQ Itbinkit’s~npmtcdtktyou~sortof 

tkauthoroftkso-calkdtGquMonstxaegyof 

positioning tk P&&t bctmcn tk Republican Ccmgcss and 

tk Danocratic CCmgEss, I suppose. 

A Yes. 

Q And so tkt would kve barn sort of idc&gical. 

A Yes. 

Q Intmnsofyourdisputewitbtkotbuadvison. 

A Yes. 

Q Isthatfair? 

A That’s cone&. 

Q ButI’mjusttryingtogctaenscforwbecbaany 

rifttktafosefmmtk’%campfLignbasbadanyimpactoa 

your lclationsbip witb tk White House since this manu 

broke. 

A Yes. Not in my rdationship with tk R&&t, 

but my relationship with tk White House staff has always 

boenbad. whcnIwastbac,itwasbadanditksb&nbad 

sincebecauseIwassortoftkink7lopuandtkpaxm 

fromtkoutsideandtkyusaltocallmRasputinorHoudini 

orallkixldsof-Machiavdli. Anditwas-andIncvu 

Page 62 

1 ~tthroughtbccbainofcommand. 

2 1ncverdeAtwitbllimthrougbbisadvisors,1 I 

3 worked dinzctly with tlx Presidfxlt, Uually circunlveIlting t 

4 adviso~usuallydisagK&g with their advice. 

5 Q And you bad also represented Republican candidates 

6 for office. 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q Sotimcwasdktrust. 

9 A Right. 

0 Q Inpart,basedontbat. 

1 A Yes. My only contact with the people I served with 

2 ontbeWbiteHousestaffsincetbenistbatIcallcdHamld 

3 Ickes,wbowasmycbiefadversary,twoortbreetimesjustto 

4 tcllhimt.batIfelttbat-tbatIfeltbadlytbatwehad 

5 beenfightingtbatmuc&tbatwbileIdisagreedwiththe 

6 positionsthathetook,Isaid,“HowmnIbesomadatyou 

7 wbentheonlyfightyouandI~~hadwasdifferentviewsof 

8 bowtobelppoorpeopleaadhowtogetagoodmanelected?” 

9 Sowc-itwaskindofa-tbenIsaid,“Iwould 

0 atsomepointliketohave~withyouandjustoffermy 

1 apologies for the vitriolic nature of the fightiag between 

2 us.” 

3 Hcsaid, “Tbat’llbcalongdimxr.” Buttbenwc 

4 ncveractuallydiditbecause~vwxeal.ittleworriedtbat 

5 if~didit,youallandtbe almmitteesmigbttbinkwewer 

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1 cookinguptcstblKmy,somnevudidtkt 

2 Q when was tbat comnrsation? 

3 A Pmbablysometimcarouud-IwouldgurssOctobu, 

4 Nova&q Dccanber, January - ‘97, ‘98. 

5 Q AndyoulmvaVtrallybadcontactwlthbimsince? 

6 A No. Ijust&ci&dtbatitwasbcttunottobave 

7 umtactuntiltbiswboletbiagwasovcrbccauscnobodywould 

B bdicvcmwauVtdoingsomctGgn&rious. 

s Q All right. Now, you mentional Miclrcy Kantor’s name 

3 wassom&odywbowasmaEmyoursidc. 

I A Yes. 

2 Q Andbytbatdidyoumarnmcuconyoursideintams 

3 oftkadviceyouviu?zgiviDgthcPnzsidcntonI A Yes. Yes. Mickeywas mortaantristandmoreof 

s allallyofminevis-a-visIckes. Ickcslladbaninvolvalin 

5 dlunpingMickcyintk1992 campaign and w Stepknopoulos 

1 bsdalsobcenantagonistictoMic~Kantolatthetpointand 

1 Knntmwasmomanallyofminc. ButI’vckdnocoatact 

8 withhim!3inccIrcsigncd_ 

1 Q You say “dumping” Was that because, again, ao 

1 idtolcgical2 A Well, I.wasn’t tlrrc ia ‘92, but I’ve kaxd that 

3 Mx&yKantorwasineffcctivcumtroloftkcampaignfora 

4 wb&andthentbacwaskindofacouptbatoustedbimlal 

5 by~andHamld,Stegbano$&sandIckes. 

Dane 61 -D.-l?3 CA 

P8gP Tuesday, August l&l998 

Page 63 
2939 

n Re: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Pagem Tuesday, August 18,199

Page 61 5 Page 6

1 Q And what prompted that coup? 1 tk Pm&la& I basically in cffkt caused Carvik end 

2 A I don’t know. I wasn’t there, but I’ve just beard 2 Bcgalatokfiredormlegetitominorrolcsintk 

3 that. 3 campaig. AndIceusal~tokcxclu&dforalongtimc 

4 Q All right. Well, would you agree that Mickey 4 andtknultimatclymackdouttohimandwe&vclop&a 

5 Kzmtorseemstoremain ooe of tbfz Resident’s key advisors? 5 modus operandi to work to@rz. 

6 A Yes. 6 Actuelly,thcPrcsidmtwasmotutbconcwk 

7 Q NotintbeWhiteHouse,butoutside? 7 atcludcd~aftatbc’94dcfcatbutinanycvarStherc 

8 A Right. 8 wesabtofbadbloodbetulrmBqelaandmysclf. 

9 Q And it’s also been gorted that Harold I&es has 9 My relationship with Erskinc Bowlcs and sidncy 

0 xmainedasanadvisor,infact,wa.sbroughtbackafterthis 1 10 Blumnthel hes always been a werm one end a close enc. We 

1 matterbrokeintlxnews. Andsotheybothseemtobemti : 1 I1 workcdvayclosclyto@k,SidncyendI,duringtbc 

2 saumsteamagain,atleasttosomecxknt. 1 i2 campaignandErskincandIworkdvcrycloaolytogdhcrwhilc 

3 A &.ue. 1 !3 kwasDcputyChicfofSteffandI’vcalwayscoasidacdboth 

4 Q AndsoI’mtryingtogetasense-notbecause= 1 .4 oftkmtokellim. 

5 careaboutpettyfactionscaanythingliltethafbuthowthis I .5 Q 

6 cancomtobeiftbcrewasacoupasyou’vetoldus- 1 

7 A We& I just don’t know. 1 don’t really -- 1 don’t I 

8 know. Kantor could have been mkhding me and have been I 8 Q9 closertoIckesthanIthought. Tkymighthavekissed8nd I 9 A0 made up. I have no idea, really. I have observed the sme 2 !O 

1 thing, though. 2 !l 

2 Q You mesttioncd not really speaking to Iekes since 2 I2 

3 Cktober or so of 1997. How fnquently do you communicate 2 3 

4 with Mickey Kantor? 2 11-- 

5 A I’ve ncvcr spoken with Mickey, to my knowledge, 2 15’ - -- 

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since I’ve resigned en4 to my knowkdg~ I’ve only spoken to 

Harold oocc. 

Q So it’s barn right at two years for Mickey Kantor. 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. Yousaidyoumgerdcdhimasbcingmom 

allicd with you ideologically, philosophically. Am you on 

goodtamswithhim? 

A Withwho? 

Q With Mickey Kentor. 

A No, I’ve told you I’ve mt spoken with him for two 

ytats. 

Q ButonwktA Ifcclfriaidlytowardhim. Idon’t-Ifccl-1 

like him, but wz just hevcn’t had contact 

Q Istbaeanyheartbum,ifyouwill,toyour 

knowkdgcontkpartofthcculmotgroupofpmsidanial 

advisors aftu tk commcntsyouhad cunmcntodoninLos 

Angcics? 

A Yes. 

Q Istbatinthccquation~? 

A Yes. Well, with-it’smeinlyanacusc. Tkc’s 

alotofhistorybd\lfeenmaodebtof~peoplcthatart 

curmntlyonthtWhitcHouscsteff_ PaulBcgalawesin 

cffcct-kandGcoqcStcphawpo&sandJamcsCarvik 

wucsortofmypmdaxssorsandwknIcamcintoworkwitbc 

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Q Okay. YoualsomaitioncdBrucoLindecy. Whatis 

your stems with him? 

A Wcll,I’vcalweyshaztvayclosctoBnnx. 

Wcf~tmdcachothain1978whcakwasinDevidRyar’s, 

P-~~TM’s, Scnatc cempaign. And k was always one of 

clinton’sinm7circlcinArknsasendessuchIwasin 

constenttouchwitbhim. I’vchadsomodaGngswithLindsq 

ovCrthclestycerutwo,ellmletaltotktobaccockaL 

Thconlycontectthstwouldkoutsi&oftbetis 

thetatokpointaftcr-Ithinktkrcwasoncpointat 

whichWcbbHubbc.ll,thcissuccamcupestowktbcrWcbb 

HubbcllhedgottcahushmmcyornotendIwaseskdaboutit 

onaTVprogramarineprintintaviewandIsaidI’doubted 

the Pmsident would arreq for hush money to Webb Hubbell 

bccausck’stoomuchofeningratc. AndBrucccalkdmcand 

said tk Pm&k& mally bristkd at that commmt 

And I said “Hc is.” So thet was that cammcnt. 

ButthacwasatoncinBnxc’s commcntatytomofyou’d 

bena watch out, you’re pissing tk P&&t off, tksc wes 

atone Andmy commattbecktohimwas’Whocarcs7’ 

Q WesityourscnsctkttbcPmsidattwasMamivc 

of Webb Hubbell on that issue or dcfcnsivc about tk issue? 

A Hc was dcfersive about my calling him an ingreto. 

Q Whywouldkcam? - 
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IdeSrandhryProceedings Multi-Pagem Tuesday, August l&l998 

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Page 65 

A Well,b&awckdasn’tthinkkis. 

Q So k dosn’t think Webb Hubkll is ao ingrate? 

A No,tbecommen tsrelatedmuchlesstohisviewof 

WebbHubbdltbanhisvicwof-myvicwofhimasao 

ingrate. OnceIcal.Mhimandksaid,“Youltally 

shouldn’t have calkd m ao in8late.” 

AndIsaid,“Youareingrate,you’rejustso 

focused on d&g what you want to do cm public policy, whm 

you’re ftiskd with pa& you throw than away and you move 

ontoncwpaopltaodthat’stbtwayaprsidcnthestok.” 

Andtbatwasourculwzsationootha~ 

Q Giwm that W&b Hubbell arguably bro@t a lot of 

aubarrassmnt on tk Residmt in that k was coovictal tk 

fvsttimofkvingrmbczzlcdmoacyfromthclawf~at 

whichtkFPstLadywasapactauandwhcntktfactbecamc 

known thuc was a lot of criticism and that sort of fallout 

that followed that and &co that part of tk money anbczzkd 

camfnanthcFrrstFamily,whywouldthatkacharitablc 

viewofhimataU,all,tbatkhadstoknframtkmto 

somdcgrecandhadanbarrassaithanbyhavingbematavay 

hi&kwelintkJustiaDeparbncnt? 

A Idon’tknow. Imean,I-Ihavcno-Inxdly 

know nothing about tk Rcsitit’s relationship with HubbelL 

InevcrmetHubbdluutiljustoaceataWhiteHouse 

function, a social gathain& and I went OYQ and introduced 

1 myself and said, ‘!Hi, we’ve llcvce met each otlu.” And I’ve 

2 nevcxcallalnorspoka.ttohimbyphoneandIreallyhaveoo 

3 ideawhattkrelationshipwasbdwrmthem. 

4 MyviewintkdiscussiooswithlkPnxidcntwas 

5 ahvaystofutpoJplesooncrratkrthanlatuandIthinlio 

6 19930car~‘941rccallmccting~~thtRsidentand 

7 Hillaryandurgingtirmtof~Hubbcll,KamedyandAltmao. 

8 AndIsaid,‘You’II:goingtohavctoQitsoowor~~, 

9 doitsooncxra~tbanlatc7.” 

0 AndtknIthinkwhenHubbellxe&oed,Imcthim 

1 atthiswhitc~functi~andI~tovcrandIsaid, 

2 ‘Youwatrcallyamanfordoia8som&ingtkResident 

3 wouldncvukvetkglltstodo,quittin8. Goodforyou. 

4 You~doff~on~sw~~aman,“isthtweyI 

5 phrasedit. 

6 Q And when was this convusation? 

7 A Somtiaxaround-somctimin’93or’94. It 

8 wasshortlyafkrhenzsigoed. 

9 Q Okay. Sotbatwouldhavebanbeforckwas 

0 convicted, beftxc k pkd guilty. 

1 A Yes. 

2 Q Okay. Andtkdetailsofhiscanductbacamc 

3 public. 

4 A Yes. Idon’ttbinkIknnvmuchaboutitthen. 

Page 7c 

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Page 71 

relationship with other advisors. We’ve talked about Bruce 

Lindsey. Rabm Emanuel. 

A Adistmtooe. IhaveahighregardforRabmandI 

rI2camm&dtotbePresidenttbatbebepromotitof~ 

George Stephanopoulos’ place, which he did. And I had a 

couple of conwxsations with him after the election to try to 

gethimtostayon. AndduringtbeperiodIwasthere,he 

wasavay-kwo~verywellwithme,althoughhewas 

always much closer to Stephanopoulos than to me. 

Q We’veseenHany nomflMn referred to recently. 

Doyouknowhimandhow? 

A Yes. IworkedcloselywithBanydu@the 

preparation for tbe 1996 convention. I had not met him 

before. And UR worked together for about a two or 

&me-mcmthpcriod. Itwasaverygood,closeworking 

relationship. He was, I thought, very creative and very 

gd 

Q HaveyouhadanyumtaetwithhimsincetbeMonica 

Ixwinskymatter broke? 

A No. 

Q DoyouknowthenameCodyShearer? 

A No. 

Q You don’t know that name? 

A No. 

MR.BENNETI? Ithinkthat’sit. 

Page TL 

1 BY h4R_ APPERSON: 

2 Q When’sthelasttimeyoutalkedtoSidney 

3 Blumenthal? You indicated you wue close to him. 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q I%n’eyoukept~amtactwithbim? 

6 A No. Last year, early - I’ve had very little 

7 contactwithbimsinceI~andI’mwtquitesunwhat 

8 time,butitwasjustlikeabriefsocialcall,justto 

9 congratulate him on his appointit or s01MGng like that. 

o I haven’t had any substantive dixussicms with him. 

1 Q Whenyouweret&iqaboutthcseaetpolice 

2 aspectandtr&ingofwamen,youindicatedtwo 

3 invesG@or&clacPalladinoandtkotba4 Am. 

s Q Letmer. Whatinfotmationdoyouhaveastotheir 

6 wnnecticmwithpersonsint.beWhiteHouseassociatedwith 

7 the Clinton White House? 

8 A We& 1 don’t re&y have,infoImatioo. 1 don’t 

9 knoweitherofthem,I’venevermeteitherofthemandI’ve 

o never spoken with &her of them. 

,l I’ve mad the samei public acmunts that evetybody 

.2 ~butpahspswithalittlcbitmortattentionbecauseI’m 

,3 intenstedinit. ButIdon’tthinkIhaveanythingtoadd 

,4 tothepublishedaccoun tsoft&Haitiatlc4mtraetand-you 

,s know,alltllatstufT. - 
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Page 73 

BYMR.BENNE’IT 

Q YoumentionedBetseyWrightaspartofthatgroup 

earlierandIdo’n’tthi.nkwequestionalyouabouther. What 

can you tell us? How do you know her? 

A Well, Betsey and I worked very closely together 

inthe 198OsinArkansas andtbenx&ngsthatIwouldhave 

with Clinton wkn he was governor m traditiooally with 

Bill,Hillary,BetseyandmeandtbenDavidWatkiar,whodic 

alotoftheadverti&g,andthentowardtheeodBruaz 

Lindsey would join us and tko toward the end Betsey left. 

ButBetseyandIwerebothhkdattbesametime, 

Irehkdafterhehadfiredmein’79,totrytogethim 

backin’82andBetseyandIwe&eori@allyfairly 

antagonistic,buttheaIcametorecognk kvalueand1 

thinkshefeltmorewarmlyaboutmeandwebegan-we 

developedaveryfastandaverygoodfk&hipduringthe 

1980s. 

I felt that Clinton really dealt shabbily with her 

afkr’86whenshexsignedashischief’ofstaffandIfelt 

thatsbtwasvexyillusedbyhim. AndIcontinuedasocial 

&tionshipwithBetseyandtheoattbetimethatIwas 

w~attbewhiteHouse,Iwentwtofmywayto~to 

includeberinthingsbecauseIhaveawxyhighxespectfor 

herabilityandIfeltthatsbcdeservedalotbettafrom 

thePlzsidmtthanshehadgotten 

Tuesday, August 18,1998 1 

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Andintkphodrigl.ltbcfol&intkfvst 

cun~tion, WC wue just chatting and I said, “So what arc 

you doing for him, far clioton?” 

Andsksaid,‘Well+Ikindofmakcsurcthat1 

kn0wwktncgativestc&sarebeingcookcdupabouthimand 

Iwolkoonbuttinglhmlaudcoxltaiaingthall.” 

hdIsaid’HowdoyoudotktT 

Andsksaid,Well,Ikindofkaptrackofevay 

Kportcr that’s in Arkansas, ~tbanonmyradarscxeah 

fm out wbo k’s workiog witli what story k’s dcvclopirg 

andIworkontryingtostoptkstoIy.” 

AndI~‘xmvQyoudotktr 

And sk said, “Well, souh~~~ it’s just a ~ucstion 

ofgivinghimmataialandsauSngoverafactsb&and 

x&utlhg it and sonhmcs it involves trying to pasuadc 

womalnottotalkto~.” 

hdI!3aid$‘Wcll$howdoyouthat7” 

Andsksaid, WcJl,mostofthcwomntbat 

clinton’s ban involved with arc pntty savvy types, thcy’rc 

carartypcs,andtky%egotalottobseandtky 

~Qn’twant60kpublicendthcydoa’twantabt 

of attahn.” 

ADdshcSlidthiseCtllallypriutotkGC!hfCZ 

Flowcrscpisodc&IkIievethiscon~tion. ImaybemixiLlg 

uptwocxxwusations. 

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Page 74 

Our &-&mship en&d when my book was pub- 

“Behind the Oval Office,” because she disapproved of my, as 

sbephrasedit,kissingandtellingintbebook 

Q ‘lkrehavebeenreportsthatyouhadknowkdgeof 

krdestroyingdoctmx&aftertheWbitewatermatterflrst 

becamepubl.icinthecuurseofthe’92campaign. 

A No. None. None whatsoever. 

Q You know nothing about that? 

A No. 

BY MR. APPER!SON: 

Q Areyouawanzofanyeffottsbybertogatk 

documents or identify ~tsOrtTa&Qcuments? 

A Only vis-a-vis women involved with the President, 

thebimbopatrolthatshenmin’92. 

Q O~Y. 

A But I know nothing about Whitewater or any 

Umnecti~shehadwithWhitewaterdocumeats. 

Q Okay. What knowledge do you have of her efforts in 

whatisgenenllydescribedast.lzeffortstocontroltbc 

bimbo uuptions? 

A Well,tbefti-Ihadtsvoconxa’sationswith 

BetSEyaboutthat. onewaskiadoflightaftershehadbeen 

hired,probably-I’mguesskgthatitwasaroundhlarchor 

April - February, March, April of 1992, and the other after 

election day. 

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Illthisoac,sksaid_“AadwhatVRdoiswework 

ongVStingmataialoatbcmtotrytoioducctklnootto 

comproanisetlle~~” Andskgavemetobtlievc, 

wktkrsbcsaid-Idon’trecalliK!rcxactwards,tkttbat 

iDVOlVCddl3tCti~AippirUr~~~OLIWOML1. 

1bekethatprioPtotbeGalnScrFlowa.saffair 

auptinginpublic,bcfcm?IknewtheniimcGmnif&Fbwm, 

Ek&SyUiIkdkdpnothcrUMvrrsatioowbUCIaSkEdllE 

WbethaaIlyWrmen ~gOhgtOC&UIfiSSCliD~~tbc 

‘92ekctionMdsksaidtom,Well#mostoftkwomal 

ht’s bcm involved with = - ” wkt I just said, “fairly 

classytypcs,carmtypcmnnen andstuff,whoarul’tgoing 

towanttokanw aodmayktbey’rcmarhiandtky 

‘kvcareasollnottDIditouSbuttbac’soaethatI’m 

particularly worried about who’s -just a bimbo and I’m 

just worrial that sk’s going to k a loose catmon.” That 

wastbatconvcrsatioll. AndIbcJheskwasref~to 

GamifCrFlo~. 

Q Idon’tmantocutyouoff,butitwasn’t 

reaUymyintaUiontogotktfarba&exapttoscttk 

groundworkfformynmctqucstion,andtktisdid-you 

indicatcdtkt*yougottotkWbkHouse,youattanpkd 

to involve Bctsey wright in activities the. 

A Yes. Right 

Q DidtksetyptofactiTiticsasyou’vejust 
2942 

InRedrandhrrvProceedings Multi-Pagem 

Page7 

Tuuday, August 18,1998 1 

Page 79 

1 you. Just be ckar about that. 

2 A Okay. 

3 Q That’s fm. 

4 A Apoliticalconsultantwhoisafiicndofminc 

5 namalEdRollinswhobccamcwcllkwwnwhenkworkaifor 

6 KatbyWhitmaninNmJ~intbc~~‘sracc~dkwss 

7 involvcdiasomdisputc~kclaimdthatk~dwca 

8 bttosupprss~~turnoutanditawadoutkdidn’t 

9 ~ythaSbuttbcrcwas.abigbrouhahaforacoupleaf 

10 months. 

11 Rollinstoldmsomctimeinlate’97cnear@’98 

12 wknweap~tc@bcronaTVshowwhichmdofrequan3y 

13 thatkbd&dtbatSidncyBhana&alkduscdhisWhite 

14 Housefileto-hisFBIfilt15 Q Mr. Roll% FBI filt? 

16 A Mr. Rollins belie& that Sidney Blummtkl kd 

17 usedhisFBIfilc18 Q I’msorry. EMieve&atkkduscdMr.I&ns’ 

19 file? 

20 A EdRollinsklicvaltktSidoyBlummtklkduscd 

21 EdRollins’FBIfilctoanbarrassEd~. 

22 QMrigbt. 

23 A Andkspczificallyr&mitoanarticlctbt24 anarticltwbichBlummtblkdvnitmwhkwasstilla 

25 repore hint attacked Rollins usiog infomation that could 

Page 8t 

1 oolyhavecome~hisPBIfile. Andseveraltimessince 

2 tben,I’veasked~~sifkwwldgivemetbe&~of 

3 itandpennitmctouseitinmycol~andbtsaidno;md 

4 tknkdidexplaintknatunzoftkmateGlandaskedme 

5 nottouseitinmycolumnandIdidnot. 

6 Q Did you ever have any contact with Mr. Blumenthal 

7 abouttllatmattel? 

8 A No. 

9 Q And you don’t have any firsthand knowledge of 

IO whetherornotthathappenedornot? 

I1 AC0IlDZt. 

.2 BYMRBENNETF 

.3 Q M.r.Rollinshadptiou$ybeen-yousaidkwas 

4 a political consultant now but he had previously been a 

5 staffaintk6 A Reagan WhiteHouse. 

7 Q IntkReaganWhiteHouse. 

8 A HewasReagan’scampaignmanagerin’84. 

9 Q Allright. Andtk&rekhadanFBIbackground 

10 file. 

!I A Igucss. 

Iz BY MR. APPERSON: 

3 Q Areyouawamofanyotkrinstancesoftheuseor 

14 misuse of government files3 

.5 A Yes. My own. - 

P~,np 77 - P-n= Qn 

1 cbcribexl, the bimbo eruptions, for lack of a better phrase, 

2 cCnltinUz after Mr. Clinton asslmxd the presidency? 

3 A I don’t know. I wasn’t referring to activities 

4 likethatwithl3&sey. IwasmonrefeITingtoHiIlary’s 

5 spez&inChinaaboutabortionandfeministissusand 

6 Hillary’simageandstufflikethat_ ButIhavealwaysixen 

7 suspicious of tk u9t of detectives and f&s and this kind 

8 ofalmostbla&mailtotrytogetwomennottoimplicate 

9 Clintoo and I have avidly followed all of the w clips 

0 on it bezause I’m very conaned about it. 

1 It’ssometh&t.hatreallywasnotinhislifein 

2 tk’80swknIworkedwithhim2nditcerGnlywasn’t 

3 anythingIknewaboutin’95and’96and~neverneeded 

4 garbagelikethattowintkelection. We’djustwinittk 

5 oldfashionedway,withadsandslxecksandstufflikethat. 

6 And I sort of have a professional contempt for that. 

7 It’s kind of the way Nixon’s professionals felt 

8 abouttheWater@ebu@ucxw. Imean,tkamabxrs 

9 runningaround suewingthingsup. AndsoI’vebeenvery 

,O worriedaboutthat,butIhavenoknowledgeaboutit_ I 

1 neverknewthatitwashappe&gwhenIwastbere. Had1 

,2 knownaboutit,Iwouldhavedoneeveryt@toclampit 

3 down. 

4 Q All right. Do you have any knowledge of any such 

5 activities with mspect to any pasons associated with the 

Page 7E 

1 President doing such activities in connection with tbz Paula 

2 Jones litigation? Once the lawsuit was brought, was there 

3 anyefforttoengageinsimilaramtactwithrespectto 

4 potential witnesses in that lawsuit? 

5 A No. Rather than an- it negatively, why don’t I 

6 just-thereare7 Q However you prefer. ‘Ihat’s fiae. 

8 A Yes. ‘IherearetwoepisodcsthatIknowaboutin 

9 which fdes wem used against people, so why don’t I just 

0 tell you about those. 

1 Q catainly. 

2 A And you can - and I don’t know any others. 

3 Q Allright,& 

4 A Oneissecondhand Well,whydon’tyouaskmethe 

5 question? I’d rather you ask nx and I answer. 

6 Q Allri&t,sir. Youindicatedthatyouhavesome 

7 knowledge of the use of files in amnectioo with potential 

8 wituzsses. Tell us what you lmow about that. 

9 A Now, does your question mean that I have to tell 

D ywwtjustaboutthinPnthatI~wpersonally,butthings 

1 tbatIhavekardfromathirdparty? 

2 Q certainly. And please mi& the distinction of bow 

3 you have that knowledge. 

4 A Okay. 

5 Q Ifit’sfirsthandasop~tosomeonetelling - 
2943 

. 

InRixGrandhnyProceedung 8 ntlult 

1 

Page 81 

1 Q killright_ %‘hatdoyouknowaboutthat? 

2 A when 1 mt to work for President Clinton in 1995, 

3 ErshneBowles-severalmonthsintotbetenureinearly 

4 1995, Erskine Bowh the Deputy Chief of Staff, came to me 

5 and&ediftbzwasanyinformationaboutmeoranything 

6 inmypastthatmightembarrasstbeRzsi&nt. And1 

7 indi~tobimthreecnfourdiff~tthingswhich1 

8 explained in depth which he made handwritten notes about. 

9 Andduringtbe-aboutwhichhemadehan~ttennotes. 

1 0 IstnmgIysuspec&althoughIdonotknow,but 

1 1 IhavenzasuntosuspectandI’llbehappytospellitout 

1 2 foryou,thattbatmat&alwasusedagahtmed~tbe 

1 3 scandal which precipitated my res&atiOti. 

1 4 Q AU right Do you have any knowledge of what 

1 5 Mr. Bowles did with the notes or the information that you 

1 6 providedhim? 

1 7 A Hetoldnxthatheputtbemi.nasafeplace,in 

1 8 stcnage,inthewhiteHousearchives,Itbinkwastbephrase 

1 9 heused. Andthatnobodyhadaccesstotbem. 

2 0 Q Allright_ Andhowisitthatyoucametobelieve 

2 ,l thattbatinfonMt.ionlKldbeulcompromisedorshafed? 

2 2 A OneoftbcpicotsOfhformation~thesubjeCt 

2 :3 ofaNationalInquirerstoryinwhichtbexporterfortbe 

2 :4 NationalInquirezmadeatelephonecalltooneoftbcpeople 

2 5 involved in July or August of 1996. And then the - and 

Page 82 

1 whileIhaveno~~ofhowtheNationalInquirergot 

2 thatstory,IhavealwaysnotexithatDavidIhdaUisthe 

3 counsel for the National Inquirer. 

4 Q Hadyouidentifiitoh4r.Bowlestbepersoathat 

5 was subsequently contacted by the National Inquires? 

6 A No. Then - oh, I’m sorry. Explain your questian? 

7 DidIinmyearliezbrief~namethisperson? 

8 Q Yes,sir. 

9 A Yes. 

1 0 Q mright 

1 1 A ‘IhensubsequenttotbeexposurebyStar~of 

1 2 the relationship I had with sherry Rolands, tk prostitute, 

1 3 Onew6Zkla.t4X,thereappearediIltheNtioMlInquirer~ 

1 4 exposeofthematerialthatIhadsbarcdwithDeputychiefof 

1 5 StaffBowlesandthemcouldbetwowaysthattheNational 

1 6 Inquirer got that iIlformation. 

1 7 

1 

1 

2 

2 il Q hxmtyonto-wedm’tneedtoknOU’~the 

2 2 &ailsuntilyouwmttosharethat SoIlcavethatto 

2 13 you. 

2 14 A Okay. AstoryappeafedintbcNationalInqUi.=r2 IS actuaUv.couldI-isitpossibleforme-Iwasn’taware- 

. 

l-. P4gC” Tuesday, August 18,199t 

Page 8: 

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Y 

ofthat Isitpossibleformyehbomthoftbedetailsof 

thisnottobeontherecordofthispmceedhg? 

Q Absolutely. We don’t - 

A Imean,canIeraszwhatI’vejustsaid? 

MR. BENNETF 

THE WITNESS: 

h4ILBF.NNElT 

THE WTINESS: 

MR_BENNETP 

THE WITNESS: 

MR.BENNElT 

*,youcandothat, 

THE WlTNESs: 

MILBENNETC 

No. 

No. Okay. 

Churecordisourrecord. 

okay. That’s fine. 

ButasI’ll umtimle, tlxn. 

well, if you don’t want to go any 

too,butokay. 

Everybody kze has an obligation to 

maintainsecrecyandwewillnotTHEWITNESS: okay. Iheinf~onthatIhad 

told the prostitute about this xhtionship and it is 

possible that she told Star Magazine and it is possible that 

Star Magzine told the Inquirer and that’s how it got 

pUbliShed. 

BY MR. BENNETF 

Q l’hat’sacompetitor,though,isn’tit? 

A Yes. 

Q It’s not tk same -- 

A No,it’sacompetitor. Soidoubtedthat. ‘Ibe 

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Page 84 

==~===h hmvevcr,wasthtsonxofmyaranicpat 

tkWhhHouaChadObtaiDCdtkhformationliWlBOwkS’ 

notcsandhadgivutittotkInquiru. 

Ikantwardthcsccandaplaaatia4l. WlKatiE 

stuyumsbrokeintbencwspapa-s,h4.ikcMcCmy,tk 

Pr&dmt’rprcgsmxc&ry,wasaskrdatapxcusconf~ 

wkthtkRcsidatwasawareoftkn%hshiptktwas 

rcvcakdirrthisiaqucsth@aadkaaswuc&ao,tk 

Rsidentwasaotmvarcofit. 

Andtkncxtday,McChmycaneckdbimsdfaad 

sai&ycs,tkRaideatwasawafcofit,tkt1kd 

diSChCditrObilDWkZlIjOkdtbCWhkHOWCoperotioa. 

hdlk4tbdmtobelimthatmy~whichwastkonly 

pl%4xarbatthatdisc~cxistcd,wa!+inplay. Illeva 

toldtkResidatofthisr&ionsbipMdIImrtold 

anybodyOtkZthanErskincBoWkS. 

TbmalCwCcklakz, NcWmdc~Calkdme 

about-askin8mcabouttwoothrrcp,isodesiamylifewhic.h 

wuciamydisc~~tktImadctoErskhFhwksaadraua 

ltcryOnthOS~S3@iI&tbGyWCEtWOothercpisodcsWhiCh 

whilcinonecasc-inbothcascucuaccivablypublicly 

availablt,itwasjusttoocoiacidmtal~titwastkwack 

IhaitappCZUCdiaNCWMCdC. 

Andmoftkcpiso&s,afkrIkdsllfm7dit 

withBowles1kdckckcdto-$ceifitwaspublicly 

D-m. Ql _ QA 
In Re: Grand Jury Procxxtdin~s 

2944 

MUlti-P8gCm Tuesday, August l&l998 

I I 

Page 8! i Page 87 

available. I~toanattomeywborepresa&mat 

tktimandktoMmtbattkfikwasaotintk 

collr& k didn’t nmanbutkcasc,andkcouldn’tdigit 

UP* 

SoIwaswoniaitkttbatwouldbccomepublic 

andksaidtixzc’snowayanyonewouldeverfmdtkt. 

“I don’t eval mmnber it_” k said. And tkn it a~pcared in 

Ncwswodc. 

Andthmtkfinalthingtktkdmeto~ 

tktmyFBI-myfik,wk~itwas,kdban1 capacityasSl%putyChiefofStafI? 

2 A Yes. 

3 BYMR.BENNEITz 

4 Q Bytkway,wlxnyoudidconfrontMr.Bowks5 A I’m sorry, I don’t know what you mean. No, I was 

6 notapplyingforago vanmmtpb,butktoldmtk 

7 Prcsidmtaskdmto-actuaIly,ksaidLaYaPaectta, 

8 cbicfofSta!T*askdmtoaskyoutbisqllcsti~isthst 

9 aoymataialiayourPasttbatculklbeanbarrassingtous. 

0 Andsoitwastbrou@tkWhiteHcuseckhofwmmand. 

1 BY MR. APPERSON: 

2 Q while cumscl’s CO&T& whet did you unda-stand 

3 tbcarchivcstomam? 

4 A Ididn’tknow. I~itwassomc&cplybm.jcd 

5 plaa. 

6 MRBENNEXT: Fortkrecud’bytbeway, 

7 MLWiXZhUgkSCnteKdtkgT8tKljlpy. 

8 @a=) 

9 MR.BENNE’IT: CouldwetakeabreaM 

0 THEF0REPJzRsONz Yes. 

I IKR.BENNETI? Justfartwominutea. 

2 THEPDREPERSO~ No,whydon’tmtakea 

3 fiveminutebti 

4 MR.BENNElTz Okay. 

5 THEFOREPERSO~ Justincasetbcgrancljurorsnad 

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Q ItwasnotanFB1filc. 

A Ihavenoideewktitwas. Idon’tknowQ We&tkFBIdidn’tdotkbackground,thiswasA E&incBow~. Right. 

Q -al.lElSkhl?BCSVkSintavicw. 

A Okay. AndIkdnoidca-tkotbatbingthat 

kdmetobelievetbismatuialhadbcmrehsedisratha 

amushg. AttksametimeNewsw&eaUalmt,aTimc 

MagazhK!poMcaJk!dme,ElicPoolcy,P-oVl~,andk 

said, ‘We kvc infcumation that you had an affair with 

anotkrwoman,“andknamcdawoman,‘andtbatyouhada 

child with her.” 

And I said, ‘Tkt was my fmt wife.” But in tbc 

intavicwwitbBowks,kmaykvejustti~tkrumrt&wn 

andnotwrittmthatIwasmanicdtotkpczsonattktimc, 

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Page 86 

sothatkilledthestory,butallofthesehitattbeexact 

samemoment. 

SoIMievethatmyfdewasreleasulandthat’s 

oneofthe reasonswhyI’vebeensotitivetowhatI 

believetheydidtoLin&Trippandallofthat. But,again, 

I only have secondhand -- from joumalism knowledge of the 

Tripp situation. 

Q DidyouevertalktoErskincBowlesaboutthis 

ma#er? 

A Yes. IcalledhiminSeptemb,er1996rightafter 

the rtlease of this material and I complained vigorously to 

himaboutit. Hesaidthathedidn’thavetknotes,thathe 

puttheminthearchives. Hesaidhewasshockedthattbe 

matetialwasreleasedbuttherewasnothinghecoulddoaboul 

it. 

IalsocalledJaekQuinn,whohadbecnthefomn 

WbiteHouseeouns&andIhadnegotiatedwhenIn&gned 

witlfX@hm and Bowles an agreement that there Would be no 

attackonmebytheWhiteHousest&,andIsaidthis 

violated our wt, but I decided not to purses it in 

public because I didn’t want to ectmph tbe Preside&s 

chanasforIeelection. 

BY MR. APPERSON: 

Q when you provide the information ‘to Mr. Bowles, did 

you understand you were providing it to him in his official _ 

Page 8b 

1 togosamewtrae. 

2 (Witnessexcused Witntss nzalhi.) 

3 MR.BENNETTz Okay. We’nbackontheIlecord. 

4 Wehaveaquorum andthaearenouaauthorized 

5 personsP==t. 

6 THE FOREPER!SoN: nat’s oonect. 

7 MR.Bm AndtlmzwitnessisstiUunderoath_ 

6 THBWITNESS: Yes. 

9 THE FOREPERSON: Yes, he is. 

D MR. APPBRSON: We apprech your patience. We’ll 

1 txytowlapupkzeandgetyououtofhert. 

2 THE WITNESS: That’s okay. 

3 BY MR. APPERSON: 

4 Q Letmesta&you~tionalyouruseofAction 

5 Rese%r&tocxmd~thepollingulthe2lst. 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Have you used that outfit previously for polling? 

8 And,ifso9 A Yes. 

0 Q WhatistheextentofyournzlationshipwithAetion 

lRcsearch? 

2 A I’veusedthemforpoll.ingfor loor 15ycars. 

3 Q Okay. Areyouawamofanyotherpersons 

4 asSxhedwitheitbertheclintonsortheclhtonWhite 

5 HousethatusesActionResea?&forpollingotherthan 

Dana Q< - Dona QQ 
2945 

I.nRc:GrandJuwProca&nes Multi-Page= Tuesday, August 18,1991 

Page 8! 

1 yollrsem 

2 A Not specitkally, but they’re a very well known 

3 companyandmostpollstenusetbematonetimeoranotber. 

4 T?xwayitworksisthatyouhaveapollsterwhowri~the 

5 qucstiomlairc andthenbecontractswithanintervicwing 

6 housetodothesurveyandActionRcsearchisoneofeightor 

7 tenmajorzsearchhouzxsinthecountryanditwouldnotbe 

8 uxommonformanyumsukantstoworkwiththem. 

9 Q Okay. And have you used Action Resear& with 

0 respecttootherpoUingyou’vedoneforthePre&kntand 

1 theE;usIzidy? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q HastheFirstLadyeverasicedyouorauthorizdyou 

4 tocontipollingforher? 

5 A Duringwhattimefm? 

6 Q Atanytime. 

7 A Inherlife? Yes. 

8 Q Well, since &e’s been First Lady. 

9 A Sinceshe’sbeenFlrstLady,w. 

0 Q Allright. Howaboutinherlife? 

1 A Yes. 

2 Q whenarewetakingabout?hringthe 

3 gubernatorial4 A 19%. 

5 Q Wbznhewasgovernofl 

Page 90 

1 A Yes. 

2 h4R. WISENBERG: Could I ask one or two more 

3 questionsaboutthat? 

4 MR. APPERSON: sure. 

5 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

6 Q Since Jauuaty of 1998, Mr. Monis, do you kDow of 

7 anybody specifically who has used Action Research? 

8 A No. 

9 MR. WISENBERG: ‘Ihat’s it. 

0 BY MR. APPERSON: 

1 Q Doyouknowofanyoneelsctbatoccupiesasimilar 

2 positiontoyourselfwithrespeettoeitherthePresi~tor 

3 theFirstIxly,andthatisinumncctiootohavinginformal 

4 contacts, seeking advice and doii subsequent polling and 

5 gettingtbatinformatianbacktoeitberoftbem? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Whoarethoseperxms? 

8 A wei&themainpenonsarehkdck~,k-nm, 

9 andDougSchoen,S-c-h-o+-n,whoarethefumofPum& 

!oSchtxn. 

:1 Q All right. And you’ve referenced them with respect 

2 totheeontractwiththe3 A Yes. Ihadbroughttbcmintowerkforpresidcnt 

14 clinton in the pnxide!zltial campaign. nley had w worked 

5 for Clinton lxfore, but they did work ex~vely for Jii 

Page 9: 

1 Tucker, the forma governor of Arkansas, and = his polliq 

2 firmforalongtimc. Andconti.nued,Ithi.nk,topollfor 

3 himshaightthrougbtbetrialwithyou. Butduringthc--. 

4 but they work for a number of clients at once and I brought 

5 themintowo*forthcPresident. 

6 Q Okay. Do you know of any instances in which they 

7 haveessentiallyprovidedpollingdataortakcnonpolling 

8 projectsforeitlxrthePre&dent,FtiLadyorothenin 

9 theWhiteHousegmtisasyoudidonthei&ancewiththc 

0 S2000? 

1 A No. It would be atypical. 

7 

81 

“__. 

‘2 0 

3 Q Allright. Withrespecttowhatyou’vedescribed 

4 as the secret police and about which you’ve written cmlumns, 

5 do you have any information that any persons associated with 

Page 92 

1 pcTsonsintkwllitcHouseortbcclintons~iavolvedin 

2 anycffortstogctir&nnationoro&wisewitbreqxctto 

3 Katbkulwiucy? 

4 A No. 

5 Q HaveyoumrtalkaitoLindaTripp? 

6 A No. 

7 Q Let’s~backtoyourdiscussionwitbtbcPresidmt 

8 wknbcindicatcdtoyoutbat”Ididn’tdowbatI’mrcuscd 

9 of’or”Ididn’tdowbattbcy’itsaying,butIdid 

0 son&+.” Wbatdidyoutbinkhtwassayingatthat 

1 time? 

2 A Ibadabsolutdynoidca. I-I-itwaslikebt 

3 wasspcakingafo@nlanguegctomc. Ididn’t4 bowyoucouldbeEKzusalofbavin8scxwith~aadbavc 

5 doncsomctb@andbcworriedaboutnotbcingablctoprovt 

6 your imocuwq but I felt tbat it was not appropriate far m 

7 toprobchimbaza~f~tofaI&ifbewMtaitottllmc 

8 sumdinghewouldand,sacondly.thcconmtiwasnota 

9 Privilcsed~aadIfcltthatatsarnepointImiglahavtto 

:O annwz your question about it and I didn’t want to be 

‘1 ccmlpranisinghimbasaBloIlaaytbinglletoklmdIdidll’t 

2 askhim. 

3 Q okay. G&gbacktoyourcm~tionwithtfie 

4 Pllcsidentontbe2l~maybethatslrmecoavusat@~mnot 

5 arrain,butwitbrcspazttobis’tellingyoutbatthercmay 

D,,, Qn _ D-c--. fl? 
hiRc:CmmdhwProcctdings 

2946 

MUlti-PllgCm Tuesday, August 18,1998 I 

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Page 92 

begiftsandreco~sofmessages, didksoundconeemed 

wkn k told you this? 

A ye& 

Q Telluswhathisdeqeanorwas. 

A Well, his demeanor throughout the whole 

conversation, tk first ecmvusatiollo11 Wednesday, tk 21% 

wasoneof~andcontritionandself-Iwauldalmost 

say self-loathing. 

Hesaid-asIsaid,ksaid,“EversinceIwas 

elected, I’ve tried to shut my body down, I mean, sexually, 

andson&hesIjusthavefailed. ‘hiswoman,Ididn’tdo 

whattkysaidIdid,butIdiddosomethingandIdon’tkno~ 

if I can prove my inn-.” Tberewasreallythisf~ling 

of having scnved it up and tkre was this tremendously 

kartfelt remomeandshamethatcamethroughinthe 

wnversaticm. 

IbelievethattkPresident,inmyexperiencewit.h 

him,khasalwaysattaekdanundueimpo&mcetotkaetua 

legaldefinitionofwhatkdidatagiventime. And1 

klievethatinhisdzpestbeingkklievestbatbewasnot 

m in saying that k did not have sexual relations 

withkrandkkliev~htkdiddosomehgandk 

beKevesthatkcannotprovehishmoeenee. Andeveqhhg 

elsewouldkopiniononmyparfbutthosearetbefactsof 

tkc4mveXsation. 

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Page 94 

Q Okay. What I’m karing from you, and you correct 

meifI’mwmag,isthatwhileyoudidaotpresshimonwhat 

tk “something” was or you didn’t ask spef%cally what the 

“samething” was, you interpreted tk “something” nevertkles! 

toksexualinnature. Istbatcomzct? 

A Yes. 

Q Andthatwasbasedontkeontextoftk 

conversath? 

A Yes. Had it not been a sexual relationhip, k 

wouldhavesaid,“IhadacrushonherandIneveractedon 

if” or some&@, but k didn’t. It was clear that - k 

said, “And I did somethg.” But k was constantly saying 

7llechaigesagainstmearenottnle. 1didl.?tdowhattky 

saidIdid” 

BYMR.Bm 

Q Mr.Morris,I’dliketogobaektotkref~~ 

7 totheconven&ionsyouhadwithBettyCurrieandNaney 

8 HemreiehontkfvSdayofthis. Telluseveqtlhgyou 

9 Icc%llaboutthocS. Agaiqyouh8dearlierdescri~t.he.mas 

:o tbzy’re being sort of tk amduit. 

11 A Yes. You’re taking about on the 21st of huary? 

#2 Q Mm-hnmL 

:3 A Idon’ttbinkIhaveaaytbiqtoaddtowhatI 

:4 said. Icalled-Iretumedtkpageaod~~and 

:5 Isaid.“HeDafzedme.” 

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Page 95 

Andsksaid, “Hewantstotalktoyou.” 

Andearlierthatday,IhadealledNancytosay, 

“I’m in New York, I’m pagable today if k needs me.” 

Q Okay. AfterthatdayA I did that frequently. 

Q Afterthatday-well,thosewenztkonly 

eonversati~ontk2lst? 

A No,no. Andtknaf%ertheconversationwiththe 

Presiht some time.later in tk day, Nancy calkd, paged me, 

andI~tbecallandshesaid,“Hewantsto-don’t 

faxanythingtous,justgooveranythingyoubaveinmind 

verballywithhim.” Actually,skalsosaidk’sgoingtobe 

atsameeventthatnightand”Doyouneedtotallrtohimat 

night? 

And I said, “yes.” 

And sk said, “He’ll k out until @ly late. 

Can it wait until tk morning??? Nancy’s fhetion is always 

tomakesurethatoneminimh demands OII tk President’s 

sckduleandto&ytogetbimasmuehrestaspossible. 

And Nancy probed me q that and I said, ‘I’ve got 

tospeaktohimtonight.” 

AlKlsksai~“Allright. WelJtkqdClll’tcall 

ontkprivatelinebecauseyou’llwakeHillaryup. callon 

tkswitehboaKi.” 

Q Okay. Sincethatdatqyouindieatedtktwithina 

Page 9c 

1 ShcKttimcyour wmmunhionsvvilhtkwhiteHcancal~ 

2 A Rigat 

3 Q Butsincethatday,didyoubavcotber 

4 con~withBcttyCurricarNancyHanrrjcb~tti 

5mattd 

6 A W~natrcaUyaboutthismaUerpasc,but 

7 whmcvuIfaxalsom&ingtoulepregidcnfIwouldhys 

8 callBcnycrNancyandsay,“I’vejustfexad~ 

9 pkase pun it off.” 

0 Q Sosoeofministaialin~~ratbutim~~~ 

1 sllbstentivt. 

2 A Ya. llmt’sright 

3 Q Andtheoyoutoldusabout4 A lkflowus. 

5 Q -tbcflovmsandtalkingto~inconcatwitb 

6 krgiandjuryappcanmcc. 

7 A Right. 

8 Q Anyotkcmva.sa~invo~cithuoftbosc 

9 twowomen? 

10 A No. 

:l AJUROR: ~Iaskapointofclaitica~? 

3 Whmyouspdce&NancyIicmr&haadrbtsaid 

3 faxi&wasit-wba~you’resaxlingus,faxif 

:4 don’tfaxauytbingtohim,I’mrelayhgtbatmc9sagciiumtk 

:s R&datorwasyourlmdcl??~thetshchedsanc 

Dnrrn 01 _ D.7”, nr 
2947 

InRezGrandhrvProeeediner Multi-Paee= Tuesdav, Atuzust 18.1998 

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knowledge of tbc work you wuc doing for tk PImidcau? 

THEWITNBSS: Iwouldsaythcf~t. 

AJUBOR Thankyou 

BYlUR.BENNER 

Q Mr.Marris,wc’dlilmtogoovuthcqucstionnaim 

that you dcvelopcd for this. We’ve got doctmrnts in your own 

handwritingandtbsgrandjuryca.n’treallysecthis,but 

We’vt?gof~yottlUUlilKlicat?&arricgafquc&M.syott 

de&opcdtotakethispolLandthalbeaidesomcthEearc 

handwrittat numbers. I don’t know if w~‘vc got tlx ability 

toreaIlyun~mndthiswithoutatahnkalbackgroundin 

statistics and that hind of thing, but - 

A Icanexplainitfairlycasily. 

Q Yes. Wouldyoudo &at faus? 

A Sure. Piitkmamtwopagccmcshaebccausc 

tbefaxwasscxewcdup,Iguc!ss. Imea&thisislitaally 

as1tookitdownraw0ntbetnight llrxcaretwopagc 

ones. 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

Didmcutoffpartoflhat7 IthinkwecutoffYes. Icansccit, llYes, but it appears - 

Yes,youallcutitoffinyourxaoxing. 

my. 

ButthisisthcwayitactuaUylookal. 

QhaY. 

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Page 98 

A Yes. Okay. Andtlsm-no,no,you’vegotit 

right. You have it right - oh no. Wait You cut off the 

opening part of this, but it doesn’t ma-. 

BY MR. APPEBSCN 

Q Sojustfat&ruxml,tkcopywe’vcmadcwhich 

hasbkxzlmarkcdasanexhiiitkzcdocrnotcontaintbefax 

infomlationthatisonyourori+L Isthatcorrccd 

A That’s cure& 

MR. APPERSCN Allright 

MR.BENNEl-R Weprobablyot@ttogctthatbccausc 

tbatxcfastotbctimcandtbedate. 

THE WITNESS: sure. Tbttim. 

MRAPPERSON: We’llmakeacopyofthisagainand 

submit it to the grand jury. 

TH.EWITNBSs: Amyouaskingmtocxplainhowto 

rcadtbcnumbusonit7 

MR. APPERSCN That would bc helpful if you would. 

THE WITNESS: okay. 

MR. APPERSON: Just hind of go dmwgh it quickly. 

THE WITNESS: Take qucation 4. for exampk, “Do 

you have a vay favorabk, SodDcwbat favorabb SQmcwbat 

unfavorabk IX vey unfavorable view of Bill Clintcn7” And 

tkn you’ll note that it says 17-30-20-22. And that that’s 

a spaa and it says 47-421 

MR. APPBRSQNZ Yes, sir. 

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Page 95 

THBWITNESS: Whatthatnuansisl7saidva-y 

favorabk, 30 said scamwhat favorable, 20 Save tk third 

response, souxxhat unfavorabk, and 22 gave the last 

msponse, vay unfavorabk. And tkn the number on the 

right-band si& mprcsuus tk first and the second 

rcspoases, vay and somewhat favorable, added togetkr, 17 

and 30 is 47. And the last two, tk unfavorable catrgork, 

20 and 22 is 42. So it’s a two-way collapsing of the data. 

MR. APPERSQN: All right, sir. 

THB WITNBSS: And in question 5, by the same token, 

19 pacent strongly approve, 42 somewhat 19 sonicwhat 

disapprove, 18 strongly disapprove and 19 and 42 is 61 and 19 

and 18 is 37 and that’s why it says 61-37. 

MR. APPERSQN Oloty. I undasend Drop dowr, 

to 7. That’s a little diffautt. 

A JUROk Would you read tbc question for us? 

THE WITNESS: Okay. On question 7, it says “Do 

you think that Rtsidcnt clxidon has committdd adult 

I’m sony, on question 6, it says, “In geaaaL do you think 

Rsidcnt Clinton bas conimittcdadultuyatonetimor 

anotkr’!” Okay7 Andthc49pacentsaidycs,17noand34 

tlndccided. 

MR. APPEBSQNz All rig& sir. 

TIIEWITNESS: Okay7 Tknonqucstion7,wcaskal 

thc49paantthatsaidycsinqucstion6,”Doyouthink 

Page 100 

1 thatthePresidenthas committed acIuItery with many difkent 

2 wmorjustwithafew?” And17pementofthe49peras! 

3 saidmanydiffenmtwomen,44oftk49saidafewand18 

4 didn’tknow. sothc37penentis37percartof49pacent 

5 andthat’swhyIhave19pemntinpaxentbesisthere. 

6 MR. APPERSON: All right. 

7 THE K’RNE!B: Because it’s 19 percent of the whole 

8 sampk. Andtknmquestion8,“Doyouthinkl?nx&bt 

9 clintal commitkdaduIte!rywhiIehehasbeenaetvingas 

0 president?” Ags&weaskedthatonIyofthe49Ileraxltthat 

1 thinkbe’s committed adukery in the first place and 50 

2 pettxntsaidyes,33no. So5Opercentoftbe49pereentis 

3 25percent,whiehiawhatisinparentheses. 

4 MR. APPERSON: Ail right, sir. 

5 THE WITNESS: on question 9, “If President Clinton 

6 did commit adultery, would it make you more or Iess likely tc 

7 stlpporthimormakenodiffemnee?” LLmeans Iem likely, 

8 40; no difference, 55. I didn’t copy down any that might 

9 have said more likely. 

0 MR. APPERSON: Okay. 

1 THE WITNESS: In question 10, “If President clinton 

2c4mmlittedadulteryf~~tlyanddidsowhilebehasbeen 

3 servingasPnxident,woulditmakcyoulcsslikelyto 

4 supporthimormaknodiffemxetoyou?” 51 lesslikely, 

544wdimen~. - 

Pase 97 - Pane 1 T)T, 
2948 

InRe: Grand Jury-gs .’ MUll * 

Page 101 

1 Goingtoqwstion 11,it’sthesame. Lesslikely 

2 and no difkexe. 

3 Question 12 I think is sfAf~xphatory. Pardon my 

4 notnAingthemall,butthisqu@ionisalongcmeand 

5 it’s an exhibit so -- 

6 And 13 and 14 I think am selfi~plana@ty. 

7 Fifte4z4the21isstrt&ysupport,22somewkU 

8 support. Eightaen~~~opposed29~Yopposed 

9 And,againyouad$tbzmanditbecomes43to47. 

1 0 Thesameonquestion16. 

1 1 ThesameoaqutStionl7. 

1 2 ne.sameonquestion18. 

1 3 Niiteenand20istheyesversustheno. 

1 4 On 24, “Do you think Resident Clinton’s aduhy 

1 5 is more extensive than President Kenmdy’s, about the srrme Q 

1 6 not as extensive?” More extensive 9, the same 33, not as 

1 7 extensive 23. I’m not quite sure why that doesn’t add up to 

1 8 1OObutitdoesnot. lhcmustbeanotsurecatcgoryor 

1 9 something2 :o The25isycsvcrsllsIlo. 

2 !I Twenty-six I think you understand 

2 !2 Twenty-seven, 28 -- to 27. Okay. And the weeds 

2 3 tittUlOUtbCbi3Ckpagehere~tkdUWgGlphiCStbatI 

2 14 wantedthemtobnzaktksuweyoutintoafktbeydidthe 

2 !5 results,butItoldtbemnotto,todiseltardthatoaceIgot 

Page 102 

tbcn~~bccauaIsawtbattbcpo~indicatcddvltan 

apology and a mea culpa wouldn’t work politically and 

tkzefcnethacwasnopointincitlYXgoingtotkextra 

cxpuwof,fiankly,clrcatingadoc~twhichwouklbea 

computcrrunandsoItokithantodis~tkinstnctions 

on the last page 

MR. APPERSON: All ii& sir. We will - 

MR.WI!SENBERG: We’ngoingbncdtogcttbe 

origiwlbackandwe’llmakcacopyforyou. 

1 THEwlTNlSs: okay. Ibclievcthisis1 MR.BENNElT lXisistko&inal. 

1 THE WlTNESS: - the original. 

1 MR.BENNETT Okay. 

1 hiR. APPERSONZ You’re handing that to us now. 

1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

1 MR.APPERSON: AndINt’llgdyouacopycagcrthat 

1 backtoyou. 

I A JUROR Excuse mc. Mr. Morris, did you evu 

1 shaIethcrc5ultsofthispollwitllanyoncorllwtbantllc 

2 PIesat? 

2 THE WlT’NESS: No. 

2 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

2 Q Whatwastbanswr? 

2 A No. 

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!5 Q Didyou-andIapolo&eifyou’vcanwerai 

Page”” Tuesday, August 18,1998 1 

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Page 303 

this-didyouphysicallygivethatinanywaytotbt 

PIesidmt’l 

A No. 

Q Or anyone at tbc White House? 

A No. 

Q Okay. 

A AsfarasIlmow,tberc’sonlyonecopyofthatin 

uiswa and that’s it 

Q Youdaycdthcinformatioutohim,Ibu&i, 

canlect? 

A Inreottbroughthnt Yes. 

MR. WISENBERG: Allrigk Anytbingdsc? 

MR.APPERSON: Iftknimnootkqucstionsof 

tki gxand jury, m’ll excuse th witness. 

COPYMR.WlSENBERG: Andstickannmdsoyoucangeta 

THE WlTNEss: okay. 

THE FOREPERSON: Thank you, Mr. m. 

MELBENNETT Orwecanmailittoyo~ 

THEWlTNESS: No,I’lltakeitwithm 

MR_BENNETT: okay. We’llbcordinamnrm?nt. 

THEWlTNJSs:Okay.~yau 

THEF0REPERSONz Mr.h4onis,I’dliketothankyou 

for your wslimony. 

THEWlTNES wd&tbankyounnUAkyou. 

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Page 104 

MR.BENNETF Onequestionwr:alwaysask-- 

THE ?VITNESS: ‘Ihnk you, by the way, for giving ul 

your lives for this. 

BY MR. BENNETF 

Q hfr. brris? kforeyougo. &equestionwe~ways 

tryaadask. Didyouhaveafullopportunitytoanswerall 

of our questi-? 

A Yes. 

Q Isthe~anythi.ng-okay. Wedidn’tcutyouoff 

kforeyouhadanopportunilytolhlly8ll!ww? 

A No. 

MFLBENNEIT: okay. Ihfmlc you. Thank you, sir. 

(-IhtZWitWSSWi%tEX~) 

(Whereupon, at 4:28 pm., the taking of testimony 

intkpresenceofakllquorumoftheGrandhywas 

concluded) 

***+* 
Hello, I’m fium Opinion Data and we’re conducting a sun’ey of public 

xwi.13~~ and I’d like to ask you 8 fe% questions. 

FROM OBSERVATION: Gender (quota at 52% ftie) 

1. Are you regtsrered to vote here in (name of state) (screen) 

2. WI you vote in the I& Presidential election? (Screen in yes, if no or not sure go to Q3j 

3 Do YOU geumally vote in Presidential eiections? (Screen in yes, terminate all othersj 

4 Do YOU have a very favorable, somewhat favorable, somewhat unfavorable or very 

u,u~avarable view of Bill Clinton? 

5. How would you rate the job Bill Clinton is doing as Prsident? Do you strongly approve, 

somcwhar approve, somewhat 

(5. I.n general, do you think President 

7 (If yes in 46) Do you think that Presi 

u omen or just with a few? 

6/9x> m-42 

8. \if ).cs in Q6) Do you think President Clinton has committed ad&-y Chile he has be&n 

sending xs President’? 

( 

15. % \ 

ki ys 

0 n/33 /J 

9. If President Clinton did commit adultery, would it make you Iess likely to support him or 

would it make no difference to you? 

-@ “I”0 WJ 5-S 

10. If President Clinton committed adultery frequently and did so whiie hr has been serving as 

Id it make no dlfferencc to you? 
2950 

j. Do you have a very favorable. somewhat favorable, somewhat unfavorable or ven* 

unfavorable view of Bill Clinton’? 

5, Iiow \~ouId you rate the job Bill Clinton is doing as President? Do you strongly approve. 

somc\\.l~at approve, somewhat disapprove. or strongly disapprove of the job he is doing? 

6. In general, do you think President Clinton has committed adultery at one time or another? 

7. (If yes in 46) Do you think that President Clinton has committed adultev with many different 

women or just with a few? 

8. iIf yes in 46) Do you think President Clinton has committed adultery while he has been 

serving as President? 

9. If President Clinton did commit adultery, would it make you less likely to support him or 

u*ould it make no difference to you? 

10. lf President Clinton committed adultery frequently and did so while he has been serving as 

President. would it make you less likely to support him or would it make no difference to you? 

I I Ii President Clinton committed adultery while serving as President with a member of the 

\\T~tr House staff, would it make you less likely to support him or would it make no difference 

to FOU? 

I?. beesterdsy, a woman named Linda Tripp, who used to be on the White House staff, said that 

she had spoken with a woman named Monica Lewinsky (lou-inn-ski) and that Monica had told 

her shr had had an affair with President Clinton for the past year and a half. Monica is 23 years 

old and unmarried. While~Monica denied, in a sworn affidavit, that she had a sexual relationship 

with Clinton and Clinton himself denied it under oath in a deposition this past weekend, Tripp 

has tape recordings of Monica telling her about the affair and admitting to it. Monica also told 

Tnpp that the President and Clinton’s friend, Vernon Jordan, asked her to lie about the affair. 

Kenneth Starr, the Whitewater special prosecutor is investigating the question of whether the 
2951 

iLC iUi..ll . ..tzu Lkiz L;*l*iL “I ti”Ju-.r.-“rr ‘--_,.......c. . . . I._. __ ..____ ___.., _ 

Clinton should be removed from office? QqS30 . - ... 

15. ?;QXV i’d like tc read you a statement the President could possibly make and get your rexion 

to it: 

For many. many years, I have been personahy flawed and have had sesual relations 

outside of my marriage. This has caused Hillary great pain and I have tried and tried to curb xy 

behavior 3s I saw the pain it caused her. After 1 became President, I was determined to mend my 

Wj'S. For the most pan, I did, but sometimes I fell short and gave into temptation. I did, in 

fact, ha:e sexual relations with a 23 year old woman named Monica Lewinsky while I’ve been 

President. I regret my behavior more than J can say. I apologize for it. I take responsibility for 

IT. I xvish I were a better man and better able to cope+th the pressures of life and work and I 

am going to redouble my efforts to walk a straight line. When the allegations first surfaced, J 

did, indeed, lie about them and urge Monica to lie., I was wrong and I am sorry for it. I am 

especially sorry for the pain I have caused my wife and my daughter. If the American people 

wrrnt me to step down as President, I will do so. With a heavy heart, but I will do so. If the) can 

hgive me and want me to continue to lead our great nation, I’ll do thar too. I’ve tried to be a 

good President and I think I’ve succeeded. I’ve tried to be a good husband and I’m afraid J’ve 

sometimes failed. As President, as a repentant sinner, and as a Christian, I ask your forgiveness, 

God’s forgiveness, and my wife and daughter’s forgiveness. My future is in your hands my 

fellow Americra3. 

If President Clinton made a statement saying this would you strongly support, some\vi;at 

support. somewhat oppose, or )L& Y7 

16. IiPresident Clinton made support, somewhat 

support, somew*hat oppose or strongly oppose an effort to impeach him and remove him from 

office” a6Qwy $ XY 

17. Ii President Clinton made a statement like and pleaded guilty to the crime of perjury and 

obst.ruct!~n of justice would you strongly support, somewhat support, somewhat oppose, or 

strongit oppose his staying in office? 17% I?- jq-33 
2952 

22. Do you think Bill Clinton is a sex addict? fS ‘53 

23. Do \-ou think President John F. Kennedy. was a sex addict? ‘as- Yp 

24 Do you think President Clinton’s adultery is more extensive thanPresident Kennedy’s, about 

the same, or not as extensive as President Kennedy’s? 

25. Had you known about President Kennedy’s adultery while he was President would you have 

thought that he should be removed from office? 

26.Lcts assume for a minute that Clinton did have an affair with Moncia, did lie about it under 

oath and by doing so commit perjury, and did encourage h4onica to lie about it also thereby 

committing the crime of obstruction of justice. Lets assume Clinton admits the crimes, pleads 

guilty and asks for forgiveness. Would you strongly support, somewhat support, somewhat 

oppose, or strongly oppose his staying in office? /?+a N /8-32 

2:.-Again assuming Clinton had the affair and committed perjury and Y 

/- 30 

bstruction of justice byu 

Gibing about it and encouraging the woman to lie and assuming that he admitted his crimes, pled 

@ty and asked for America’s forgiveness, would you strongly support, somewhat support, 

somewhat oppose or strongly oppose an effort a ~ to _ impeach us_ hi tr) preyve him p;y22 

2$. .\gam. a5sumin, 0 these facts, some people say that that Clinton should be removed from 

office nor for adultery, but for perjury and obstruction of justice.. They say that we need a 

President who obeys the law and that we cannot have a man who has admitted to having an 

affair, commit-ted perjury by lying about it, and committed obstruction of justice by encouraging 

the woman to lie about it. Other people say that Clinton only did what tens of millions of men 

ad women do -- commit adultery and lie when they are caught. They say the guy is human and 

that hc didn’t do anything terribly wrong. They say that we shouldn’t remove a man who the 

nation elected as President just because he was caught with his pants down and blurted out a lie 

when he was confronted with it. They say we can’t just be like a banana republic, ousting 

Presidents from office without the consent of the voters. They say we should accept his 

apology, practice the Judeo-Christian act of forgiveness and move on. Would you strongly 
2953 
2954 

*222*2~**Q**********w 

22* TX REPORT *t* 

*L~n*t~******d******* 

TX/RX NO 6506 

DEP'I'. ACCESS CODE 2222 

CONNECTION TEL 14077233382 

SUBADDRESS 

CONNEcTlON ID 

ST. TWE 01121 13:29 

WAGE T 02'09 . 

PCS. SEW 4 1 

RESULT OK 

i 

SURVEY OF NATIOMI. ATTITIJDES 

Hello, I’m from Opinion Data and we’re ~~du~t~g a survey of public 

;Ittitudes and I’d like to ask you a few questions, 

FROM OBSERVATION: Gander (quota at 52% female) 

I. Are you registered to vote here in (name of state) (screen) 

2. Did you vote in the last Presidential election? (Screen in yes, if no or not sure go to Q3j 

3& Do you generally vote in Presidential eiections? (Screen in yes, terminate all others‘) 

4. Do you have a very favorable, somewhat favorable, somewhat unfavorable or very 

unfavorable view of Bill Clinton? 

5. How would you rate the job Bill Clinton is doing as President’? Do you strongly approve, 

somewhat approve, somewhat 

6, In general, do you think: President 

7, (Ur yes in 46) Do you think that a$ultery with many different 

women or just with a few? 

CWUk#$--&3> 

8. (If yes in Q6) Do you think 

serving as President7 

9, If President Clinton did commit adultery, would it make you less lilcely to support him or 

would it make no Werenca to you? 

10. If President Clinton committed adultery frequently and did 60 while he has been serving a~ 

President, would it make you less d it make no difference to you? 
2955 

SURVEY OF NATIONAL ATTTTUDES 

Hello, I’m from Opinion Data and we’re conducting a survey of public 

attitudes and I’d like to ask you a few questions. 

FROM OBSERVATION: Gender (quota at 52% female) 

1. Are you registered to vote here in (name of state) (screen) 

2. Did you vote in the last Presidential election? (Screen in yes, if no or not sure go to Q3) 

3. Do you generally vote in Presidential elections? (Screen in yes, tetminate all others) 

4. Do you have a very favorable,, somewhat favorable, somewhat unfavorable or very 

unfavorable view of Bill Clinton? 

5. How would you rate the job Bill Clinton is doing as President? Do you strongly approve. 

somewhat approve, somewhat disapprove, or strongly disapprove of the job he is doing? 

6. In general, do you think President Clinton has committed adultery at one time or another? 

7. (If yes in 96) Do you think that President Clinton has committed adultery with many different 

women or just with a few? 

8. (If yes in 46) Do you think President Clinton has committed adultery while he has been 

serving as President? 

9. If President Clinton did commit adultery, would it make you less likely to support him or 

would it make no difference to you? 

10. If President Clinton committed adultery frequently and did so while he has been serving as 

President, would it make you less likely to support him or would it make no difference to you? 

11. lf President Clinton committed adultery while serving as President with a member of the 

White House staff, would it make you less likely to support him or would it make no difference 

to you? 

a $3 Md ‘7L/ 

12. Yesterday, a woman named Linda Tripp, who used to be on the White House staff, said that 

she had spoken with a woman named Monica Lewinsky (lou-inn-ski) and that Monica had told 

her she had had an affair with President Clinton for the past year and a half. Monica is 23 years 

old and unmarried. While.Monica denied, in a sworn affidavit, that she had a sexual relationship 

with Clinton and Clinton himself denied it under oath in a deposition this past weekend, Tripp 

has tape recordings of Monica telling her about the affair and admitting to it. Monica also told 

Tripp that the President and Clinton’s friend, Vernon Jordan, asked her to lie about the affair. 

Kenneth Starr, the Whitewater special prosecutor is investigating the question of whether the 
President lied under oath or encouraged Monioa tq lie. Do you believe President Clinton either 

lied himself or encouraged Monica to lie or do you believe that President Clinton didn’t either lie 

or encourage Monica to lie? 

Clinton lied or encouraged Monica to lie 3, 

Clinton did not lie or encourage Monica to lie sy 

13. If President Clinton did lie and encouraged Monica to lie, do you think he should be 

removed from office?. 5+)ci 

14. If President Clinton lied, he committed the crime of perjury. If he encouraged Monica to lie. 

he committed the crime of obstruction of justice. In view of these facts, do you think President 

Clinton should be removed from office? 6QN 30 

15. Now I’d like to read you a statement the President could possibly make and get your reaction 

to it: 

For many, many years, I have been personally flawed and have had sexual relations 

outside of my marriage. This has caused Hillary great pain and I have tried and tried to curb my 

behavior as I saw the pain it caused her. After I became President, I was determined to mend my 

ways. For the most part, I did, but sometimes I fell short and gave into temptation. 1 did, in 

fact, have sexual relations with a 23 year old woman named Monica I,ewinsky while I’ve been 

President. I regret my behavior more than I can say. I apologize for it. I take responsibility for 

it. I wish I were a better man and better able to cope with the pressures of life and work and I 

am going to redouble my efforts to walk a straight line. When the allegations first surfaced, I 

did, indeed, lie about them and urge Monica to lie. I was wrong and I am sorry for it. I am 

especially sorry for the pain I have caused my wife and my daughter. If the American people 

want me to step down as President, I will do so. With a heavy heart, but I will do so. If they can 

forgive me and want me to continue to lead our great nation, I’ll do that too. I’ve tried to be a 

good President and I think I’ve succeeded. I’ve tried to be a good husband and I’m afraid I’ve 

sometimes failed. As President, as a repentant sinner, and as a Christian, I ask your forgiveness, 

God‘s forgiveness, and my wife and daughter’s forgiveness. My future is in your hands my 

fellow Americas. 

If President Clinton made a statement saying this would you strongly support, somewhat 

support, somewhat oppose, or 

x+ 97 

16. If President Clinton made support, somewhat 

support, somewhat oppose or strongly oppose an effort to impeach him and remove him from 

office? 

17. If President Clinton made a crime of pejury and 

obstruction of justice would you strongly support, somewhat support, somewhat oppose, or 

strongly oppose his staying in office? /9\ I?- Jq-37 
2957 

18. If President Clinton made a statement like. &i&and pled gu&y to these two crimes would 

you strongly support, somewhat support, somewhat oppose or strongly oppose an effortm 

impeach him and remove him &om oiftce? 

3o*aa 

19. If President Clinton made a statement like this and pled guilty to these two crimes do you 

think he should be sent to jail? k-S+ 

20. DO you think that there is such a thing as sexual addiction? 

6P- 23 

2 1. Some people say sexual addiction is like drug addiction or alcoholism. The person may 

want to stop but finds it very, very difficult and sometimes impossible. Do you think there is 

such a thing as sexual addiction? Q&a? 

22. Do you think Bill Clinton is a sex addict? /s ‘SJ 

23. Do you think President John F. Kennedy was a sex addict? 3s. YQ 

24. Do you think President Clinton’s adultery is more extensive thanPresident Kennedy’s, about 

the same, OT not as extensive as President Kennedy’s? 

VI+ mq3-3 -/I; 

25. Had you known about President Kennedy’s adultery while he was President would you have 

thought that he should be removed fkm office? 

‘r>f /Yy& 

26.Lets assume for a minute that Clinton did have an affair with Moncia, did lie about it under 

oath and by doing so commit perjury, and did encourage Monica to lie about it also thereby 

committing the crime of obstruction of justice. Lets assume Clinton admits the crimes, pleads 

guilty and asks for forgiveness. Would you strongly support, somewhat support, somewhat 

oppose, or strongly oppose his staying in office? /p-As b /PC>1 

27.Again assuming Clinton had the af%ir and committed pe$ry and Y 

/- 30 

bstruction of justice byu 

lying about it and encouraging the woman to lie and assuming that he admitted his crimes, pled 

guilty and asked for America’s forgivcncss, would you strongly support, somewhat support, 

somewhat oppose or strongly oppose an effort ~ 7 to _ impeach us_ hi njpzyve him ?;!a 

28. Agarn, assuming these facts, some people say that that Clinton should be removed from 

oftice not for adultery, but for perjury and obstruction of justice.. They say that we need a 

President who obeys the law and that we cannot have a man who has admitted to having an 

affair, committed pejury by lying about it, and committed obstruction of justice by encouraging 

the woman to lie about it. Other people say that Clinton only did what tens of millions of men 

and women do -- commit adultery and lie when they are caught. They say the guy is human and 

that he didn’t do anything terribly wrong. They say that we shouldn’t remove a man who the 

nation elected as President just because he was caught with his pants down and blurted out a lie 

when he was coafronted with it. They say we can’t just be like a banana republic, oustiag 

Presidents from office without the consent of the voters. They say we should accept his 

apoloyw, practice the Judeo-Christian act of forgiveness and move on. Would you strongly 
2958 

support, somewhat support, somewhat oppose, or strongly oppose his &q-kg in office? 

27.Xgain, assuming these facts and aAer hearing these arguments, woulq you strongly support, 
2959 

OIC-302 (Rev. S-1944) 

OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

Date of tnnscripdon S/4/98 

JOHN FITZGERALD MUSKETT, Officer, United States Secret 

Service (USSS) Uniformed Division (IID), date of birth-, 

-_I was interviewed at the Office of the Independent Counsel 

(OIC), 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, Washington, DC, 20004. 

Present for the interview were Associate Independent Counsel 

(AIC) MARY ANWE WIRTH.AIC MICHAEL TRAVERS, Department of Justice 

(DOJ) attorneys, GARY GRINDLER and JONATHAN SCHWARTZ and 

MUSKETT's father and attorney, JAMES W. MUSKETT. MUSKETT was 

interviewed under the terms of an agreement reached between the 

OIC and the DOJ. After being apprised of the official identity 

of the interviewers and the nature of the interview, MUSKETT 

provided the following information: 

MUSKETT entered on duty with the USSS on July 15, 1987. 

MUSKETT worked initially as an unassigned officer at the White 

House. After approximately one and one half years, MUSKETT 

worked at the foreign mission branch of the USSS. For five 

years, beginning in 1990, MUSKETT was assigned to the USSS 

counter-terrorism team. In the Spring of 1995, MUSKETT was 

assigned as a post officer to the east appointment gate at the 

White House. Although MUSKETT's regular assignment was the East 

appointment gate, he has worked in the West Wing and the Oval 

Office. For the past two years, 

operations section, 

MUSKETT has worked in the Special 

which coordinates all special events and 

tours at the White House. 

MUSKETT advised his immediate supervisor is Lieutenant 

BRYANT WITHROW. MUSKETT stated he likes to work at least six 

days a week. _MUSKETT will fill in for people who are on vacation 

or are out sick and therefore, gets assigned to various posts 

within the White House. MUSKETT's regular shift is 6:30 a.m. 

until 3:00 p.m.. 

MUSKETT knows MONICA LEWINSKY, but cannot,recall when 

he first met her. MUSKETT advised LEWINSKY was working in the 

East Wing in the Office of Legislative Affairs (OLA) when they 

first met. MUSKETT stated the USSS roll call room and the 

Special Operations office are in the basement of the East Wing of 

the White House. MUSKETT would pass LEWINSKY's office in the OLA 

at least once a day during his normal rounds. 

Investigation on 05/01/98 at Washington, DC Fiil 29D-OIC-LR-35063 

D8a?dkoted S/4/98 
2960 

OIC-302a (Rev. 8-19-94 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

Continuation of OIC-302 of JOHN FITZGERALD MUSKETT .on 05/01/98 ,hge 2 

MUSKETT advised that he would speak to LEWINSKY about 

two -to three times a week. MUSKETT described the conversations 

as,friendly and the subject matter as small talk. 

MUSKETT saw LEWINSKY after she left the White House at 

an arrival ceremony held at Fort Meyer. MUSKETT advised he was 

assigned to the "gold rope" area, which is an area reserved for 

cabinet members and members of Congress. LEWINSKY waved to 

MUSKETT. LEWINSKY was wearing a sun hat, so MUSKETT believes the 

event occurred in the Spring orSummer. MUSKETT advised that 

LEWINSKY had a relative with her, but MUSKETT cannot recall if 

the relative was a male or a female. 

LEWINSKY asked MUSKETT if she could sit in the "gold 

rope" area. MUSKETT checked with ANN MCCOY of the White House 

visitor's office, who handled all state arrivals at the White 

House. MCCOY told MUSKETT to keep LEWINSKY where she was. 

MUSKETT did not recall MCCOY'S reaction when he asked her about 

LEWINSKY. 

MUSKETT recalls seeing LEWINSKY at a White House social 

event held on the State floor. MUSKETT cannot recall the 

specific event, but believes the guests were dressed formally. 

MUSKETT cannot be sure if LEWINSKY was accompanied by anyone at 

this event, but thinks she was with someone from the Pentagon. 

LEWINSKY and MUSKETT noticed each other and LEWINSKY approached 

MUSKETT. 

LEWINSKY told MUSKETT that she thought MUSKETT and she 

were friends: MUSKETT told LEWINSKY that they were "very good 

friends." LEWINSKY told MUSKETT that she heard someone was 

spreading rumors about LEWINSKY and the President. LEWINSKY did 

not indii=ate who she thought was spreading the rumors about her 

and the President. MUSKETT replied to LEWINSKY that he knew she 

worked in the East Wing. The details of the rest of this 

conversation are being withheld by MUSKETT and the Department of 

Justice, pursuant to a claim of l'protective function" privilege. 

MUSKETT had one additional conversation with LEWINSKY 

about the President, the details of which are being withheld as 

MUSKETT and the Department of Justice are claiming "protective 

function" privilege. 

MUSKETT last saw LEWINSKY about two to three weeks 

before the story broke about LEWINSKY and the President. 

LEWINSKY was sitting outside the Old Executive Office Building 

(OEOB) near the >7th Street exit. MUSKETT advised he saw 
2961 

OIC-3Ga Otcv. 8-19-94) 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

ConnrPution of OIC-302 of JOHN FITZGERALD MUSKETT .on 05/01/98 .plgc 3 

LEWI_NSKY at approximately seven in the evening. MUSKETT advised 

that LEWINSKY could have been waiting for someone to come out of 

the OEOB. 

MUSKETT advised that he and LEWINSKY had'many 

conversations but never did anything socially. LEWINSKY never 

asked MUSKETT about the President's whereabouts or his schedule. 

LEWINSKY never gave MUSKETT a gift. 

MUSKETT knows BAYANI NELVIS and GLEN MAES by sight, but 

not personally. MUSKETT has not heard any rumors about LEWINSKY 

and NELVIS being involved in a relationship. NBLVIS never 

mentioned LEWINSKY to MUSKETT. MUSKETT never discussed LEWINSKY 

outside of USSS personnel. 

MUSKETT heard rumors about a relationship between 

LEWINSKY and the President before the news stories broke. One of 

the rumors MUSKETT heard was that LEWINSKY's departure from the 

White House stemmed from LEWINSKY and the President being seen by 

a White House staff member in the West Wing theater in a 

compromising position. MUSKETT thinks.the White House staffer 

was a female. MUSKETT heard this rumor more than once, but does 

not remember who told him. 

MUSKETT did not know about LEWINSKY leaving employ at 

the White House prior to her transfer. 

MUSKETT recalls two incidents involving LEWINSKY 

showing up at-the Northwest gate. The first was a story relayed 

to MUSKETT from Sergeant KEITH WILLIAMS. Early one day, WILLIAMS 

and MUSKETT saw a newspaper article about an allegation involving 

the President and a woman who worked at the White House. MUSKETT 

cannot be sure if the woman was KATHLEEN WILLEY. MUSKETT and 

WILLIAMS both talked about how the stories about CLINTON were 

going to get into the news. 

Later that same day, WILLIAMS called MUSKETT and 

advised that MONICA LEWINSKY had entered the Northwest gate and 

was cleared in as a "press" person. MUSKETT thought that it was 

strange for LEWINSKY to be cleared in as a 18press1t person when 

she did not work for a news outlet. 

WILLIAMS told MUSKETT that LEWINSKY was walking towards 

the press office when someone from the White House Counsel's 

Office (WHCO) met her and took her to the West Wing. WILLIAMS 

did not say if the person from the WHCO was a male or a female. 

MUSKETT was on duty when WILLIAMS called. MUSKETT wrote this 
2962 

OK-X& (Rev. 8-19-94) 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

Conmmon of OK-3U2 of JOHN FITZGERALD MUSKETT .on 05/01/98 .be 4 

information down in his notebook, which he will provide to the 

OIC if he still has it. . 

MUSKETT advised the second incident involving LEWINSKY 

and the Northwest gate occurred on a weekend. MUSKETT has heard 

the story about five times, but is unsure who told him. MUSKETT 

believes GARY NIEDZWISKI may have been on duty at the Northwest 

gate when LEWINSKY showed up saying she had an appointment with 

the President. The officer on duty told LEWINSKY she would have 

to wait in line to see the President. NIEDZWISKI knows the 

details of this story. 

MUSKETT claimed Vprotective function" privilege. on 

further questions related to this incident, specifically if 

LEWINSKY complained about her treatment at the Northwest gate and 

if there were any disciplinary action taken against the Uniformed 

Division officer who was present during the incident in question. 

MUSKETT advised he heard a story about LEWINSKY being 

present at an evening event held at the Pentagon that the 

President attended. MUSKETT advised that the Uniformed Division 

officer in charge of the magnetometer, OLIVER HEMSLEY, noticed 

LEWINSKY sitting at a table, prior to the President arriving. 

HEMSLEY pointed LEWINSKY out to the USSS Special Agent on duty at 

the site. MUSKETT thinks the reason HEMSLEY pointed LEWINSKY out 

to the Agent was because LEWINSKY had been transferred out of the 

White House and there were rumors about the circumstances 

surrounding her transfer. 

MUSKETT knows JAMIE SCHWARTZ and worked a lot of events 

with her when she worked in the White House Social Office. 

MUSKETT does not recall speaking to SCHWARTZ about LEWINSKY. 

MUSKETT has had conversations with GARY BYRNE about 

LEWINSKY, but is claiming "protective function" privilege on the 

details of the conversations. 

"protective functionIt 

MUSKETT is also claiming the 

privilege on conversations he had with 

other White House employees related to a pass holder. 
2963 ____ 

In Re: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Pagem Friday, July 17,1998 

page3 VYIrzn STmcs OIST~ICT mum 

FOR mu5 DXSTRICT OF CoLmmIA I WhiteHouse? Isthatco~ orno? 

_______---------~ 2 A I’mtryingtojustgctallthedatesbackinmy 

IU II: 3 mind. Approximately that time. I spent a short time on the 

GrUWD JURY -cU*bs : 4 counter-sniper team and I rotated down to the White House, I 

s transferred down to the White House, I believe it was in 

____-___-------e-x 

6 1994, 1995, which I was transfarcd back down to the White CrW* .luq - “0. 2 

wliL.d scar., District court 7 House branch. 

tar th* KliatrL=r Of COllmbh 

3rd ‘ coa*clr"+loa, Y.Y. 8 Q Okay. Andwhat was your post? *..h*nguln, D.C. 20001 

9 Crltiy. July 17, 1999 

A Istartedmydutiesattbeeastappointmcntsgate 

TkC r.,t*njr or JciW EI?Z_ IWStz~ I** ?At.r. 10 for approximately six months and then I was ass&ned to the 

in tn. prercnm it . Sull quluor~n OX Grand Jury 97-4, 

1 I special operations section. 

12 in-l.* an n9-c s, 1991, -ae*rg .t 1:os p-r., 

Q Which basically conducts tours, is that correct? 

13 And social events? titol-.: 

MBKRT J.BI- 14 A We do social events, help with motorcade arrivals, 

sclx+C.n YlSEYBCllG 

JACI(IE II. Lssnnrr, JR. 15 dignitaries into the White House complex and our main job is 

Ikpury ti*oci.cc Independent counae1 

TIrrmn *“u*IY 16 all the different social events at the White House; accessing 

MARY WWF, YIRT” 

ECUUUU) J. PAlx 17 guests into the White House, verifying who’s on the access 

r,sC%ci*rc *ndepenOcnr Co”.-.=*1 

otticc 0t I”~.~“Q*lIr Co*‘.1 18 lists,andtbentrueidentityoftbegueststotheWhite 

1001 FWln*y,vmi. I”.n”*, Y.Y. 

sultc 490 North 19 House. 

Yalhinqtan. D.C. 20004 20 Q Okay. Now, you have been interviewed previously by 

21 members of the Office of the Independent Counsel, including 

22 an FBI agent. Is that right? 

23 A Correct. 

24 Q And at that time, you asserted a protective 

25 function privilege with respect to certain information. 

page2 _. Page I 

1 PROCEEDINGS 1 Is that correct? 

2 whereupon, 2 A Yes. 

3 JOHN FITZGERALD MUSKETI 3 Q Okay. Can you tell the grand jury wWher you have 

4 was called as a witness and, after having been first duly 4 ever seen tbe Presitit together with Monica Lwinsky? 

5 sworn by the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and 5 A Yes. 

6 testified as follows: 6 Q Can you tell us about it? 

7 EXAMINATION 7 A Yes. Idon’thavethepaperwork,Ilcftitinmy 

8 BY MR. SUSANIN: 8 suit from yesterday. It was an Easter Sunday, I believe it 

9 Q Sir, if you could state your full name and spell 9 was 1996. I was basically -- using the word canceled, I was 

o your last name for the record after you sit down? 10 forced to work a section due to manpower shortages that day. 

1 MR. WISENBERG: Have a seat. 1 I I worked -- there’s a 3:00 se&n, basically, reporting 

2 THE WITNESS: My name is John Fitzgerald Muskett. I2 hours are 1430 hours in the afternoon, and I was assigned to 

3 That would be J-o-h-n, Fitzgerald, F-i-t-z-g-e-r-a-l-d, I 3 a West Wing post., post w which is right outside the 

4 Muskett, M-u-s-k-e-t-t. 14 Oval Office. 

5 Good afternoon,, everybody. 1s On this afternoon, some time - I’m not exactly 

6 JURORS: Good afternoon. 16 what time it &as, some time after - I helieve it was 400 in 

7 BY MS. W-IRTH: 17 the afternoon, the President came over to the Oval Offlice. 

8 Q Officer Musket& you’ve been with the Secret 18 At that time -- before that time, the Oval Off’ce was an 

9 Service since 1987. Is that right? 19 empty office. I thought we’d have a quiet day, just tours 

:0 A &-rect. July 15, 1997. 20 coming in, but he decided to come over to the Oval Off&. 

!I Q And you’re with the uniformed division of the 21 He came into the Oval Office and at that time an 

:2 Secret Service. Is that right? 22 agent comes over, assunxs the post with us and we closed the 

13 A cbrect. 23 door at that time. 

:4 Q And from the spring of 1995 until some time in 24 I’m just trying to get ail these facts together. 

!s 1996, your post was the east appointments gate at the 25 Sometimes it’s easier to answer your direct questions. 

Page 1 - Page 4 

Divcrsificd RcDorting Scrviccs. Inc. (202) 296-2929 
2964 

In Rc: Grand Jum Proceedines Multi-Page” 

1 

Friday, July 17,1998 I 

1 AsborttimeafterheenteredtheOvalOffice, 

2 the young lady named Monica Lewinsky approached the Ova 

3 Office door carrying a manilla folder stating that she had to 

4 go inside to see the President. 

5 At that tirnc, I looked at Monica Iewinsky, almost 

6 secondguessiqberandsaying-beeauseIknewMonica 

7 Lcwinsky before this incident and I knm her - with my 

8 assignment with the special operations section, I had a lot 

9 ofinteract&withherintheEastWingthat’swhcreher 

0 office was, in the East Wing, and I saw her probably three or 

1 four times a week, short hellos, and so I basically - wh& 

2 ShesaidshehadtogoinaridseethePresidenfIknewshe 

3 wasanintem,Iknewitwaskindofunusual. 

4 I ask& her almost jokingly, “You want to go in and 

5 see the President of the United States?” 

6 And she said, “Yes. ‘I%e President called over and 

7 said he needs these important papers.” 

B So tbm at that time, I figured it was legit. 

9 I looked at tbc agent, the agent kind of looked at me, it 

3 was a new agent on duty that day. 

1 Q Do you remember that person’s name? 

2 A After speaking with you, which I believe you’re 

3 Mary Annc Wirth, correct? 

1 Q Yes. 

5 A I did - I believe -- I w confii this 

Page ! 

Page 6 

I gentleman’s name because we do have a listing of all 

I photographs of all agents and I did meognim himbut 

5 cannot remember his name right now, but I could get it. 

I I think his first name was Reginald. 

5 Q Reginald? 

5 A But I’m not 100 percent sum on that. He looked at 

I mebecauseIknewhewasnewinthe~,almostlooking 

8 for my guidance on this situation. So I looked at him, he 

) lookedatme,Isaid,“SoIgucssldherin.’ 

Q This is the door that leads from the little 

corridor wbue the pantry is and the entrance to the study? 

Is that the door to the Oval Office that we’re talking 

about? 

A It’s not -- to give you an ideq the Oval Office -- 

I’m looking at the Oval Office main door, it’s the inside 

door into the direct office. The pantry door would be to my 

right approximately six -- ten feet maybe away. 

Q If you had your back to the Oval Of&c. 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

0 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

0 

1 

2 

3 

4 herebecauset.herewastimefactorIdon’t mlnember going 

5 over with you bcfom. certain events happened this day thar- 

__. Page: c 

I I probably should have documented and made it a lot easier 

2 formchem. I-b 

1 

1 

1 

I 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1; 

1’ 

21 

2 

2: 

2: 

21 

2: 

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4 

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II 

1: 

1: 

1, 

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1: 

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2 

2: 

2: 

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2: 

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P 

1 

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, 

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4 

5 

6 

7 

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9 

3 

1 

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3 

1 

5 

Page7 

A IfIhadmybacktotheOvalOfftazdoor,the 

pantry is to my left. 

Q Okay. i 

A It’s almost going down the corridor to the Vice 

President’s office. 

Q Okay. Where was the President at this time? 

A At that time, he was in the Oval Off&. 

Q All right. Continue. 

A Sbc stepped forward into the Oval O&e. I’m not 

100penxnsumifIactuallyopeneditoriftheagentcame 

fonvard,ifIsaidtogoaheadandopcnit. ‘Ihedoorwas 

opened. The door -- she pushed it all the way open. Stepped 

forward_ 

The President -- President Clinton was sitting at 

the Oval Office desk this afternoon. He was on the phone, 

hiseyeglassesonthecdgeofhisnoseandhelookedfonvard 

andsheweutrighttothefrontofthede&~Andatthat 

time, the agent closed the door behind her. 

Q And that would be the person you think is Reginald? 

lbe agent that you’re referring to? 

A Correct. 

Q Then what happened? 

A Okay. Now, at this time, I’m going to take my time 

Q So Reginald was replaced by someone else? 

A Yes. Just to keep the post going around. 

Q Doyouknowwhohcwasr&uedby? 

A Well, actually before this happened, too, I’m 

sorry - yeah. Because I’m getting confused hem now. 

Before I get into how this whole thing ended a phone call 

came in a short time after Monica was in the Oval Office. 

I can’t remember the gentleman’s name but basically 

what happened was the phone rang, there’s a phone right 

outside tbc Oval Office on a small table. 

‘Ibe special agent answered the phone. I can’t 

remember if it was Reginald or not. He was talking to 

the White House operator and he basically said just a 

minute. 

He was looking for my guidance and he handed 

the phone over to me and said, “I’ll let you speak to the 

uniformed division officer at this time.” 

He handed the phone directly to me and the operator 

said thcrc’s an important phone call, thcrc’s a gentleman on 

the phone that needs to see the President of the United 

Divcrsificd Rcaortinrr Scrviccs. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

Page 5 - Page 8 
2965 

lzt;rla.r l..l.. 17 1 nnc 

au -WI U.-Y a-, 1 r”8vwwuAug’ 

----- * a- 1 AA--J, l wy A I, IYY( 

pa%tg Page 11 

1 Stats. talk to the Presi&nt of the United States.” 1 We.4 a gcntkznan came walking down the hallway 

2 I then told the opaator, “Ring it through, the 2 from the Via President’s offtce area and I didn’t 

3 President’s in the Oval Office.” 3 immediately rtcognizt him, but he basically said he’s going 

4 She said, “Well, he’s not answering the phone.” 4 toscetheRsi&nt. 

5 So I said “Is it extremely important?” 5 Q Who WBS it? 

6 she said, “Yes.” 6 A It was Harold Ickes. 

7 So I said, “Well, we’ll get the message to him.” 7 Q And what was his position at that time? Do you 

8 At that time, put the phone down. I don’t know if 8 remember? 

9 weputthephonconholdortoldthePresident--sothe 9 A I believe Chief of Staff. 

o agentwcnttogoopentbedoorandItoldhimfirsttoknock. 10 Q Andbewasheadeddownthehallway? 

1 Heknockedonce. lherewasno reply. 11 A He was coming from the Vice President’s offta 

2 Q And this is the same door that Monica had entered 12 area Idon’tknowifhecameout--Imean,l.tewascomi.ng 

3 through? 13 downtheamidor. Andhewaswalkingpastme,Mike, 

4 A That Monica went into. Exactly. He knocked again 14 separatingus,nndbesaidhewasgoingintosmtbe 

5 a little louder. Them was no reply. At that time, he IS President. HewasdressedcasuallyanditwasaSunday 

6 looked at me. I said, %‘e’ve got to go in.” 16 afternoon. 

7 At that point, I just wanted to go in, it was two 17 So he said - Mike answered him, “Fine.” 

8 knocks, I know he’s in there. 18 So he’s going towards -- now, this would bc the 

9 The agent opened the door, we both looked in. 19 secretary’s offia door, which is to the left of the big Qval 

!O Theagentwasinfrontofmatthistime. Wedidn’tsee 20 Offtce door tbat Monica had entered. 

!I the President_ To the right, we saw the study doors propped 21 And be looked at me almost like to get the door, to 

12 open a little bit. At that time, he yelled into the room, 22 unlock it, and not recognizing the gentleman immediately, I 

13 “Mr. President.” Them was no reply. 23 askedwhohewas. Andthesametimehe’sanswe@me,the 

!4 He looked at me and I said, “We’ve got to go in.” 24 special agent was identifying who he was to me. 

:5 So we both took maybe two steps in and he yelled a little 25 So I said, ‘Fm.” 

Page 10 __ Page 12 

1 louder, “Mr. President” 1 And at that time, I unlocked the sxmtary’s oflia 

2 At that time, the President answered us. 2 door. He went in. 

3 Q Where was his voice coming from, the President’s? 3 Q He being Harold Ickes? 

4 A The study. It was almost like a huh, hello, or -- 4 A Yes. HaroldIckeswent in. Andashcwent in, 

5 we said, “You have an important phone call.” 5 very shortly after Monica Lewinslcy came out the pantry stud) 

6 And he says, “Okay. I’ll get it inside here.” 6 doorwhichistbedoortotherightofthemainOvalOflii 

7 At that point, we said, Tine.” We closed the Oval 7 door and scooted down the hallway. 

8 Oftice door. 8 Q Okay. She came through the pantry door? 

9 A short time later, I don’t know, a short time 9 A Well,Ican’tbe1OOpercentsumbutthepantty 

0 later- 10 door - either the pantry door or the door to the right. 

1 Q Let me just interrupt you at this point. 11 AllIheard~boom--almostsimultaneously-weU 

2 A Sum. 12 not simultaneously, but a short -- very short time afterwar& 

3 Q The agent who went in with you, was the Reginald? 13 and she’s - I rxognized Monica going down the hallway. 

4 Qrwasthatthepersonwborcplacedhim? 14 Q Do you know whether Mr. Ickes had seen Monica 

5 A I’m not 100 percent sure. I’m not 100 percent 15 Lewinsky wlmn he went into the Oval Offia area? 

6 sure. 16 A lhaewasnowayofmebeing 100peramtsurc. 

7 Q Okay. A short time later -- 17 Ican? answtxtllat.. 

8 A Well, some time later. I’m not really sure, I know 18 Q Did you ever hear from anyone else whether 

9 at this time there was a special agent on post named Michael 19 Mr. Ickes had seen Monica Lewinsky when he went into the 

.O Wilson. 20 Oval Office? 

:1 AndIhadmadeaw mment almost to this point, 21 A No. No. 

:2 he’ll probably remember this, too, basically 1 said to him 22 MR. WISENBERG: Pardon us. 

3 basically “What is going on in there?” 23 (Pa==.) 

4 You know, something like -- and he said, you know, 24 BY MS. WIRTH: 

5 “Who knows?” or -- 25 Q Did you yourself ever actually SIX Monica lewimky 

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1 withthe.Presidcntintbcstudy? 1 Q DidyatcvatcIlGaryBynr~tH~ldIckmbad 

2 A No. 2 sari tbc Pmsidcnt and Monica togdba in the study? 

3 Q No? 3 A IbopcI’manswuingtbisqucJtion-Imean- f 

4 A No. 4 ncwxpassedontbcstorytoktsomcbodyb&vetbatIhad 

5 Q Did you ever tell anybody that you had sceo Monica 5 fmtlxnd luv~~kdgc. 

6 Lewinsky with the President in the study? 6 Wbcn I say fmtband knowlcdgc, meaning I bmrd 

7 A DidIeverwitncss them? No. Nevcrdid. 7 from w that said, yes, you’m assuming - wbcn I told 

8 Q Did you ever tell anybody that someone else had 8 this story, I told tbc story like I would tell anybody in 

9 seen Monica Lwinslq in the study with the President? 9 &is jq today, tbc same way I’m tcllinR it here today. 

0 A No. DidI-Ijustwantto-Ithinkyou’re 1 0 TbcPnxi&ntuwttotbtOvalOffice,asborttimc 

1 asking me did I ever tell anybody else that I saw tbem 1 1 later Monica was insi& then Harold Ickcs came in Uuuugb 

2 togcthcr in the study? 1 2 one door and immcdiatcly afmwards Monica came out the back 

3 Q Yes. 1 3 door. So I’m assuming &at an int&cnt pa-son - I’m 

4 A I never told anybody -- I never -- I personally 1 4 mean, I’m not trying to say - I ban no fmtband lcnowkdgc. 

5 never saw the President and her alone in the study, nor did I 1 5 Q DidyouevcrtcIItbatspsif~storytoGaty 

6 pass on that I did. 1 6 Byme? Doyouknowl 

7 Q Did you ever tell anybody whether Harold Ickes had 1 7 A l-bisstory? 

8 seen Monica and the President in tbe study together? 1 8 Q Yes. 

9 A No. 1 9 A Yes. 

0 Q Do you know whether Harold Ickes had seen Monica 2 ‘0 Q Okay. And you also told it to Sandy Vana. 

1 and the President @ether in the study? 2 .l A SandyVana. 

2 A DoIhow? No. I-I’mas-Iassurnethatbe 2 :2 Q Didyoutellittoanyoneelsc? 

3 did. I’m assuming the average intelligent person - now, I’d 2 :3 A Yes. 

4 never pass on - you know, I probably might have passed the 2 ‘4 Q WIXS 

5 story on that Harold Ickes went in through the secretary’s 2 .5 A I told my attorney and - ~&actually, it was I 

-. Page i. 

first my fatba, this story. Which is actually today also 

acting as my attorney, James Wiiiam Muskett. 

BY MR. SUSANIN: 

Q Sir, do you know who was on the phone? 

A Sir,Iknewweekslater. Ican’tbe-Ican? 

remcmberhisnamc. 

Q And I take it from your Wstimony that neither you 

nor the agent you were working with followed Mr. I&es once 

youopenedthedoorforhimintotheoval. Isthatcorrect? 

1 A Gxrcct,sir. OnceIunlocked-itwas 

1 actually - Nancy Hem&h and Betty Cunie share an off&, 

1 that’s the operations center, they’re in cbqe of the Oval 

1 Offtct. Iunlockedt.hatandthenhemadehiswayin. 

1 BY MR. BlTlMAN: 

1 Q Offmer Muskett, you referred to documcn tsth&yoU 

1 brought with you last - I guess it was yestaday? 

1 A Whatthatwas,whenIsaydocumen ts,itwasthe 

1 roster, the duty roster, which would help with the exact 

1 date, exactly what day I was working that Easter Sunday. 

2 That’s what - basically, I Xeroxed it to help IW pinpoint 

2 exactly what day I was down there working. : 

2 Q Would that tell you which PPD officers were 

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office and Monica L.ewinsky came out the back door of tbc Oval 

Office, I could bavc passal that on to somebody, but I did 

not say that Harold Ickcs came in and surprised - and saw 

tbc President and Monica in UC study. Bccausc I know afta 

this incident happened, I did ask - I did tell the story. I 

bclicvc it was tbc next day. 

Q Wbodidyoutcllitto? 

A Tothcsa~iorpostoffxas attbattime. 

Q Wbowastbat? 

A It was Randy Vana and I believe it was Gary Byme. 

Just because of this - tbc situation was vay unusual 

circumstances, what bad happened, and I just wantal to know 

ifIdidtbcpropcztbing. 

Q Did you ever hear from any source whatsoever that 

Harold Ickes bad seen tbc President and Monica togdkz in 

tbc study? 

A No. 

Q Did you ever tell Gary Bymc - 

A JUROR: A verbal response. phase. 

BY Ms. WIRTH: 

Q Excuse me. I’m sony. Could I have a verbal 

response on tbc last one? Did you ever bear from any source 

at all that Harold Ickcs bad sun tbc President and Monica 

tcg&a in the study? 

A No. 

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working? 

A No, this roster is uniformed division. 

Q Have you ever made any writteo notes of what I 

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1 ocUUlZdthisE2&XSUl&y? 

2 A No, sir. 

3 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

4 Q Did anybody ever suggest to you directly or 

5 indirectly that you not tell anybody else about this 

6 incident? 

7 A No, sir. 

8 Q After9 A AndcanIjustaddonthat? 

1 IO Q Sure. 

1 ,I A Idou’twanttocomeacrosstothisjuryasarumor 

1 .2 passer or just story teller. I take my job very serious, 

1 .3 wbatgoesonItrytokeepin. 

1 .4 WhenItoldthesetwoofficers,theywerethe ’ 

1 .5 regular-whenIsaytheywere-itwastheiipo$tbeir 

1 86 normal daily operation, so I told them almost looking for 

1 .7 guidance, almost like a pat on the back, you did fine, John, 

1 ,8 this is -- you know. Do you understand? It wasn’t like I 

1 .9 was1 !O BY MS. WIRTH: 

1 !I Q Other than this occasion, did you ever see Monica 

2 !2 and the President together? 

2 !3 A I can’t be 100 percent sure. Just because alI the 

2 !4 social events that I worked. She was on the state floor 

1 !5 quite often a lot of times. 

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Q Setting aside public events, did you cvcr see lxr 

in the vicinity of the Oval Office on any other occasion? 

A No. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q You were -- before Harold Ickes came in, you have 

Ms. Lwinsky going in and then you’ve got at some point 

Harold Ickes going in. During the time before Mr. Ickes cram 

in, was Monica Lewinsky alone with the President? 

A When she went into the Oval Office, she was alone 

with the President. Now, just to kind of go back, because I 

guessonewaytosaythat,too,ifyouwaeto~mareyou 

100 Ixmcnt sum. just because I’ve heard other people’s 

testimony tnzfore where, you know -- when we normally take 

that assignment over, that posting_ the Oval Oftice, all 

those doors are secured. so it’s safe to say the President’s 

inside the Oval Office, it’s a secured area, as secum as 

you’re ever going to find a room. 

So when you go -- we basically monitor who goes in 

and who goes out. So when he was in there, she’s the only 

one to enter that day. 

Q Okay. There was nobody else with the President 

when she came in. Is that correct? 

A Correct. He was in there by himself, 

Q And if there had been anybody else that camein 

before Mr. Ickes, would you have known about it? 

Friday, July 17,1998 

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A Well, I’m not 100 paxmt surt. I mean, if 

somd.mdy wanted to come in, which was normally unusual on tbc 

back side since tkre are sevual entrances to tk oval. but 

most of tbc time they will come through that entrance. 

Q As far as you knew - 

A No. sir. 

Q -nohodyelsewa5iathcxc. 

A Cornxt, sir. 

MR. BITTMAN: Thank you. That’s all m have fcx 

you right now. We’re going to recall you for next wuk_ 

THE WI-NESS: Thank you. 

(-ITIc witness was arcused.) 

(Whereupon. at 4:27, tbc taking of testimony in the 

presence of a full quorum of tk Grand Jury was conchhi ,I 

..*** 

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Innx GrandJuryProccedings lKUlti-1 PtlgCN Tuesday, July 21,1991 

3rd ‘ Constltucion, N.Y. 

“.shlnqton, D.C. 20001 

in u,. pr.,.nc. of . full quorum ot Grand Jury 97-2. 

Lnpm.1.d on S.&%mbcr 19, 1997, c-ncinq .t 12:16 p.m., 

cator.: 

.YAC?CIE “. BENNETT, JR. 

SD- YISENBEilC 

D.p,aty fnd.p.nd.nt Co”,,,.1 

rI?vTHr S”SANlN 

KaNY ANlIE NlRTH 

lx44aRc PAGE 

1001 PeMsylvanl~ A”*P”C, w.*. 

Suite 490 Worth 

w.shinqton, D.C. 20004 

Page i 

CONTENTS 

WITNESS: Fwqt 

John Fltrqarrld II”skeZt 3 

GRAND JURY EXHIBITS: 

NO. JFM-1 nap ot N.,L Ylnq 6 

Nd. JYM-2 P.qc lrm appoinmcnt book 7 

NO. Jm-3 mty Rosttr 417/96 7 

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PROCEEDINGS 

tipon, 

JOHN Fl-RGERALD h4USKElT 

wascaUodasawitncssandsftcrhviagbanfustduly 

sworn by the Foxperson of tk Grand Jury, was examinai and 

testified as follows: 

EXAh4lNATION 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Good aftanoon. Would you state your name for tbz 

record, please? 

A John Fimld Muskdt. 

Q- And your title? 

A Offtrw with tk Uniti States Seem Savice 

uniformal division. 

Q Andyoulikctobcnf~toasoryourofficial 

title would be Off&r M&&t, correct? 

A Correct. 

Q Allright. My nameis Sol Wisehag. I’mwithtk 

Office of Indcpaxht Counsel and I!m berc with my colrcegus 

Maty Anne Wirth, Tim Susanin, Jack Bennut in back of you, 

and Ed Page ovcx baz. and this is tbc grand jury court 

reporter and this is tk grand jury. 

A Goodaftanoon. 

Q You are the same John Muskett who textified Friday 

in front of a grand jury, is that correct? 

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A Yes, sir. 

Q Let mc inform you of a couple of things. You have 

taken an oath to testify mlthfully. Is that conw3? 

A Correct sir. 

Q You undastand that oath and all that it implies. 

correct? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q You understand that you have - cvuybody 

wbo appears in front of a grand jury has rights and 

responsibilities. You bavc for instance, tk right not 

tohaveaLawyQinhacwithyou,buttohavealawycr 

outside to consult with if you nad to. Da you understand 

that? 

A Yes. sir. 

Q I understand your lawyer is your dad. Is tbat 

collect? 

A Yes, sir. He took me through 33 yrars of lift and 

k’s retired Department of Justice. He’s a lawyer. After 

the Deparmxnt of Justice, hc was associate &an of George 

Mason Law School. He’s my lewycr. More I refer to him as a 

legal advisor in this situation. 

Q Okay. Andk’shattodayifyounadtoconrult 

witb him. L5 that correct? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q And you understand you have a privilege against 

- J 

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self-incrimination. If the truthful answer to a qlstin 

would tend to incriminate you, you don’t bavc to ans~~ that. 

Do you understand that? 

A Yes. sir. 

Q Do yuu understand that aside from that and any 

valid privikgc such as affomcy-climt privikgc or a 

marital privikge that you have ta truthfully answu all tbc 

questioLls wc pul to you? 

A Yes. sir. 

Q Okay. Any questions, tbm, about your rig& and 

responsibilities? 

A No, sir. 

Q Okay. Do you bavc some docummts that you have 

brought with you? 

A Yes, sir. 

MR. WlSENBERG: I’m going to ask - since we don’t 

bavc a subpoena but this is tbc functional quivalcnt of one 

and since we’ve spoken with your father about this, I’m going 

to ask tbc grand jq foreperson on behalf of tbz grand jury 

to rcqucst that Off~ica Mu&at turn those documcllts OYQ to 

tb~ t~-=d jury. 

THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Muskctt would you turn OVQ 

those docummrs to the grand jury? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. I will. 

THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 

Page e 

I BY MR. WISENBERG: 

2 Q Let the record reflect that you have handed two 

3 documents to the forelady of the grand jury. Is that 

4 correct? 

5 A Ye&sir. 

6 Q Let me go over some things with you Let me show 

7 you what appears to be a floor plan of the West Wing of the 

8 White House, the floor that has the Oval Office. Is that 

9 correct? 

0 A Yes, sir. 

1 Q Or at least of a portion of the West Wing. Is that 

2 correct? 

3 A Y-sir. Gxrect. 

4 Q You’ll note that’s marked JFM-1. Is that correct? 

5 A Yessir. 

6 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JlM-1 

7 was marked for identification.) 

8 BY h4R. WISENBERG: 

9 Q Now, one of the two documents you gave us, it’s a 

0 Xerox, is that correct? 

1 A Yes. Both copies are Xeroxed copies. 

2 Q AndtbefrrstoneisaXeroxedcopyofhvopages 

3 from a 1997 date book. Is that correct? 

4 A GXTEZC&.+. 

5 Q And you’ll notice I’ve marked that Grand Jury 

5 Page71 

1 Exhibit JF’M-2. Is that correct? 

2 A Yes, sir. 

3 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFMg 

4 was marked for identification.) 

5 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

6 Q Now, the third document, tell us what kind of a 

7 documenttllatis. 

8 A This is a duty roster for the uniformed division 

1 Q And I’ve marked that as JFM-3. Is that correct? 

2 A Ye&sir. 

3 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFM3 

4 was marked for identification.) 

5 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

6 Q Is that just for uniformed or is there also PPD 

7 listedontbere? 

8 A Just uniformed division offtcers. 

9 Q Okay. And there would be one for every such shift? 

0 A Y-sir. Allthmeshifts. 

1 MR. W-ISENBERG: Okay. All right. Thank you. 

2 I’ll turn over the questioning to my colleague, 

3 h4s.wirth 

4 THEWITNESS: AndifIcouldjustask,Iwantto 

5 makea statement. Friday,whenIwascalledin,Iwas 

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extremely na-vous. I don’t know wbuc you plan on picking up 

today. I would evm ask if you wouldn’t mind mading back 

somcoftboscqucstionsorsultancntsandktmt-Ivcryartruncly nuvous. 

IknowitwasashorttimcIwasinbac,butit 

f&like-itwasalmostablur. So-Iwmtovuinmy 

mindovathc~mdandtbcnarr;somcminorc~tionsI 

knowof.soI’dlikctocoopaatefullyandtothcbestofmy 

knowEedgcandkapinmindalotofthcsccvcntsarcgoing 

back approxima tcly two years. but I intead to answer boaestly 

to mry question. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q Okay. what we’ll do, then, most of your testimony 

fccusal on an incidalt that bappanxl on Ease Sunday in 

1996. lstbatrighn 

ACQlTCCt. 

Q Andwbatwe’lldoiswe’llgothmughtbatwMe 

incidatt again and give you an opportunity to talk about it 

as fully and as slowly as you’d like. Okay? 

A Okay. Thnnkyou. 

Q Andiftkm’seuiythingtbatInotieeoranyone 

else here no&es that conflicts with anything you’ve said 

~~m’nbriogittoyoura~tion~dgivcyouan 

opportunity to canuzt it. Okay7 

A Okay. 

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1 Q AlI right. so you wuc working, then, on Easter 1 Ihey wouldn’t put a junior officer into the West 

2 Sunday in 1996. Is that right? 1 2 Wing due to the fact that you need to know a lot of who’s 

3 A hrect. 13 who. TbelastthingyouwnnttodoisstoptheChiefof 

4 Q And what date was that, according to your records? 4 StafforanyofthePmsident’sstaffintheballwayandask 

5 A It was Sunday, April 7, 1996. It was Easter 5 for an ID, so most times a senior officer. 

6 Sunday. 6 And I believe on this occasion Sandy even joked 

7 Q Okay. And can you tell the grand jury - firs off, 7 with me because she was in scheduling, I believe, at that 

8 you are a uniformed division officer, is that right? 8 time -- actually, her post wascl)ou&ide the Oval 0ff1lx at 

9 A correct. 9 that h sk’s in scheduling now, but we even joked that it 

0 Q And at that point, in April of 1996, bow long had 10 would be a laid back Easter Sunday. 

1 youbeenwiththeSecretService? 11 The bigeest thiug we have going on Sundays most of 

2 A At that point? Date of appointment - I joined the 12 thetimt,webavetours,sothebiggestthiagyou’wgotto 

3 Secret service uniformed division on July 15,1987, so I was 13 do is brush up on your facts about the desk the Oval Office 

4 approximately on the job nine years. Approximately. 14 desk, and so we joked about that. 

5 Q Okay. Andwasthattbef~ti.methatyouwem IS Q Okay. Did you talk to anybody else in preparation 

6 assigned to work outside the Oval Office, that Easter Sunday? 16 for your tour that day, on Easter Sunday? 

7 A No, I’ve worked that post before. 17 A No. 

8 Q You’ve worked there before. When did you get the 18 Q Did you talk to Officer Byrne, that you recall? 

9 assignment? 19 A Notbefwthisday. 

0 A ThefmtimeIcV~WOrkedthc%Stwing? 20 Q O+=Y. 

I Q To work that Sunday. No. That Easter Sunday. 21 A To the best of my recollection. 

2 A I believe it came across - the only reason it 22 Q Okay. And about how often before that Easter 

3 sticks in my memory here_ it probably was that Saturday, 23 Sunday had you worked that post? 

4 April 6th, due to the. fact that I was canceled. Sunday is 24 A That particular post? 

5 normally my day off and it was Easter Sunday and they 25 Q Outside the Oval Off& 

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Page 10 Page 1; 

1 canceled me for the 3:00 - when I say canceled or forced if 1 A I’mnotlflOpercentsure. IknowIwasveiy-it 

2 a section’s short manpower, quite often to get the duty 2 wasn’t due to my time on the job. I’ve worked at either 

3 roster back up to numbers, tbey’lI force some officers to 3 post - tbe downstaim lower lobby is another West Wing post 

4 come to work that day. 4 wt,calIit~or~theupstairsontbeseeond 

5 Q And you were one of those people forced in that 5 floor. But I know I’ve worked that assigmmnt before. I 

6 day. 6 knew the workings, how the post works. 

7 A Yes. 7 Q SowbenyouweretalkingtoOfficcrVerna,itwas 

B Q Okay. What was your normal assignment at that 8 more in the line of what you would expect on a holiday 

?time? 9 Sun&y. 

1 A I’m not 100 percent sure. I know I was transferred 10 A Exactly. She was like saying, “Oh, John, it will 

I downtotheWhiteHouse_Iwasonthesniperteamatone 11 be laid back.” I think she might have even worked day work 

I point. I transferred down and I’m currently right now in 12 that day, I’m not 100 percent sure to this date_ you know, 

3 special operations - I believe I was an unassigned officer 13 “Nothing’s really going to be going on. Just know the facts 

4 or maybe the east appointment gate. I’m not 100 percent 14 about the Oval Oflice.” 

5 sure. I should have -- 15 Q Okay. Sotherecruneatirnewhenyouwenttowork 

6 Q But the Oval Office was not your routine, normal 16 that Easter Sunday. 

7 assignment at that time. 17 A Correct. 

8 A No. it was not. 18 Q And what was your tour that day? Do you remember? 

9 Q And when you got the assignment, did you speak to 19 What hours did you work? Which shift? 

0 anybody in preparation for taking that assignment on Easter 20 A 

1 Sunday? 

2 A I believe it was Sandy Veam, Officer Sandy V&a. 

3 I believe we even joked about is you know. Most qf the _ 23 Q So that’s 2:30 in the afternoon? 

4 time -- to kind of give you a background, the West Wing is 24 A correct. 

5 considered a senior post. 25 Q Untilwhattime? 

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A That assignment runs to approximately 2230 where 

the midnight shift will cume in, roll call, and they 

immediately go to relieve officers. 

Q Okay. And your post that day was the_ post. 

A a, which is right outside the Oval Oftice. 

Q And were there any other uniformed officers working 

that day in conjunction with you outside the Oval Oftice? 

A Yeqtherewas. 

Q Whoelse? 

A Officer Lou Fox. 

7 

8- 

Q Okay. All right. And do you remember the names - 

were there any agents, any plainclothes Secret Service 

officers working that day at or around that post outside the 

Oval Office? 

A Another thing -- I hope I’m not repeating other 

officers, just to kind of give you an idea, when I took this 

post, there were no agents on post. 

The only time agents take that post side by side 

with the uniformed division offtcer is when the President 

goes to the Oval Office. That’s when we close the door and 

there will be agents assigned to sham that post with us, 

basically. So when I took that post, there was no agent on 

post. 

Q SodidtbenzcomeatimethatEasterSundaywhen 

the President did come to the Oval Office? 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 4 A Ithinkhemight-tbela.sttirxIsawhim--I 

1 5 can’t really recollect to the best of my ability right now. 

1 6 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

1 7 Q By the way, you’re saying things like 1830 and 

1 8 stuff like that, that’s military time, right? 

1 9 A Yes, sir. 

2 0 Q Okay. Let mejustaskyou - 

2 1 Do you mind if I briefly have him mark some things? 

2 2 MS.wlRTH: sure. Goahead. 

2 3 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

2 4 Q OnthisJFM-l,canyoumark-you’vegottbeOval 

2 5 office here, correct? 

Page lb 

A Yes, sir. 

Q And if you assume the Oval Office is a clock, I’m 

going to refer to this door hen as the 1l:OO door? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q The 1:00 door? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q The 3:00 door, 9:00 door. Okay? 

A bfm-hxmn. Yes, sir. 

MR. WISENBERG: And you don’t have to call me 

Page 14 

1 A Yes. 

2 Q And about what time was that, if you remember? 

6- 

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g9 

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:“-r.-_- 

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Tuesday, July 21,1998 ‘ 

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II 

1 “sir.” And let me ask you if you would please mark for us 

1 wbem the-post is. 

1 And, again, this is the 11:OO door. 

1 MS. WIRTH: And, for the record, you’re using a red 

1 pen. 

1 THEWITNESS: The 11:00positi0&tbe~real.ly 

1 not a fixed post, but it’s right outside that door. When I 

1 saynotafurcdposfIdon’twant~~tothinkIstand 

1 rightthem -- 

1 MR. WISENBERG: Al.l the time. Okay. 

2 THE WITNESS: R’s &at proximity area) where 

2 you’re watching this hallway as WelI as this balIway as well 

2 being able to answer that phone. 

2 MR. WISENBERG: okay. Now, you have marked - 

2 I’m going to mark this JFM - I’ve got a different I 

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1 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 1 AU 

2 JFM-4 marked for ida~titication.) 2 Q3 BY MR. WISENBERG: 3 A_ 

4 Q I’m going to use this - it’s a blow-up bf a 

5 portion of JFh4-I. Is that correct? .n 

6 A Yes. 6 A”’ 

7 Q A& it’s got some writing on it and you didn’t make 7 Qm 

8 tk prcuisting writing, did you? 

9 A No. 

IO Q Okay. I’mgoingtousctbisbaxuscwccan 1 0 A1 l 

i:F- - 

1 2-w 

1 3 

14 A- 1 4 

- 

I5 Q- 1 5 

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18 Am 1 

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2 !I = 

2 

!4 Al- ~- 

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!5 A- l 

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6 QU* 

7 A-* 

IO - 

11 Q12 A4 A. 

5 Q6 A7- 

4 Q DoYou rememhex ahout how long afxer you took your 

5 postthePresidentcamedown? 

6 A I want to say approximately 1630,4:30 in the 

7 afternoon or 1630 hours in the afternoon. 

8 Q Okay. And where was Lou Fox at that time? 

9 A I believe he already gave me my break and he was 

10 somewhere on response. I don’t know if be was relieving 

!I another officer at that time or he was at- I’m not 

12 really1OOpercentsurewherehewasatthattime. 

!i 6 so he wasn’t with you. 

14 A No. 

!5 Q Allright. And~tbeFVesidentcamedown.~ 

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1 did k come from. if you know? 

2 A He came down tk colonnade. He came from tk 

3 residence and came down in tk colonnade door. 

4 Q Okay. Andcanyoushowus - 

5 A ThatwouldkdoorCoritwouldkthc3:OO 

6 position. 

7 Q Okay. Ld’s u JFM-I. okay? 

8 A Okay. 

9 Q All right. And with your red pat. can you just 

0 show me which door and mark it with a P where tk President 

1 came in. Okay. And for tbc record, you’ve put a P in tk 

2 colonnade area at tk 3.a door. ’ 

3 A Thc3:OOposition. Correct. 

4 Q All right. And you said that when tlbc President 

5 comcstotheOvalOfficconcormorcPPDsgcntscomcwith 

6 him. Isthatright? 

7 A Correct. 

8 Q And tbat day, do you know how many came with him? 

9 A I have a question. I don’t know bow much I can 

0 divulge bfzc on *ret Service policy, with the Presidcot’s 

1 movement, so if I could have a minute to pop out to talk to 

2 tkSceretSa-vice? Idou’twanttodivulgetoomuchoftk 

3 Secret Service opaation. 

4 h4R. WISENBERG: Do you want to continue and get to 

5 .tbat later? 

Page 22 

la MS. WIRTH: Yes. I’ll continue asking questions 

2 and we’ll leave that aside. 

3 MR. WISENBERG: Okay. 

4 THE WlTNESS: To answer your question without going 

5 into 9 much detaiL I know that tk door that I markal at 

6 tk I 1 :OO position is closed, tkre’s an agent outside that 

7 door. 

8 BY MS. WIRTH: 

9: Q Okay. And wk was that agent that day? 

D A I’m not I&l pcrant SW but I did a littk 

1 research. To tbc kst of my recollection. that was Special 

2 Agent*Rcginald Hightower. To the best of my recolketion. 

3 Q Okay. Now, you said tbc President came to tk Oval 

4 OfI& at about 4:30 pm. Do you know if anybody went into 

5 tk. Oval Offlice with him or if k went in alom? 

6 A I saw him enter alone. 

7 Q Okay. And did tkrc come a time when somconc 

8 joincd him in the Oval Office? 

9 A Yes. 

.3 Q Okay. Do you remember wbcn that happened in 

!I relation to wkn tk President arrived. approximately bow 

!2 longafter? 

13 A Shortly tkeaftcr. approximately 15 to 20 minutes. 

‘4 Q And who was that person? 

!S A Ms. Monica Lewinsky. 

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Q Okay. And how did that come about? 

A I was standing tke. with the special agent. 

Monica kinsky enterui tk hallway which is ma&cd - coming 

from the west colonnade area. from post rlLL area which 

hallway you have marked kc along tk cabinet room watiy 

thae. 

Q Okay. So you’ve indicatal in refa-ring tobJFM-4. 

which is ttc diagram that’s marked with some writing on it, 

conect? 

,r);. 

A Correct. 

Q You’ve indicati an m r&proceeds from walkway 

4thro&vaiungarea1. Istbatright? 

A Conut. 

Q Okay. So sk came down that direction. Do you 

runanbu what sk was wearing that day? Anything about kr 

appearance? 

A Nothing about ha appearance really. 

Q,AUright Wasskcarryinganytbingwitbba? 

A Skwascarryingafolderinhabands 

Q+ What kind of folda? 

A A manilla styk folder. 

Q Okay. L&c a whietan? 

A Yes. That opens and closes. Nothing like bcrt on 

tktabk,itwnsopcn. 

Q Justafolder? 

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A Yes. It was a foldcr. 

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Q Okay. And did you notice anything about her 

duneanor. how sk samcd? 

A Due to tk fact I did know Monica Lewinsky, sk 

sccmcd a littk upset_ 

Q Okay. And you wac telling the grand jury you did 

know bu? 

A Yes, I did know Monica Lewinsky. 

Q, Howdidyouknowhu? 

A Not socially. I m wart out with hu for d&s 

or cvcr doubkdate or anything like that. I knew ba, my 

assignmcnt, I was cast appointment gak at one point and tkn 

later I joined a position, thy call it special operations 

scction. To @ a bekr idea, tbcy should call it special 

cverlts. 

Ourjobismdoalltbctoursintbcmofnir&thc 

guidal tours. we do tk public tours, obsavation. and tkr 

wtdoallthcsocial~trattbcWhikHouscaswcllas 

DPD,motorc&scomingiutosactbePresidatt. 

And due to Monica Lewinsky’s office located in the 

EastWing,clurb~roomandbricftngroomisdownbclowtbc 

EastWinginthcbasanenttbcrr.SoquikohenIwouldsac 

ha in passing. I’d usually sa. her at some social events 

and we cstabliskl a rapport 

Q Okay. So you did things like exchanged gru&gs 

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1 with her and passed the time! of day, tbat kind of thing? 

2 A Yes. Yes. 

3 Q So you said that based on that familiarity that you 

4 hadwithher,skXemedupsetthatday. 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Okay. Did she say anything to you? 

7 A She approached me and she actually addressed me. 

8 ?heagentthatwastberepresentwitbmewasaaewagent. 

9 Idon’tknow,newtothejobarnewtothatrotation,the 

1 .O PPD rotation. 

I 1 She approackd the Oval Oflia door and told me 

1 .2 sbehadtogoinandszetbePresiden~givehi.msome 

1 .3 documents. 

1 4 BY MR. WISENJ3ERG: 

1 5 Q And that’sthe 11:00 door. 

1 6 A Yes. 

I 7 BY MS. WIRTH: 

I .8 Q Okay. Anddid she say anything else? . 

I 9 A Actually, I responded to that by saying, 

2 !O “Monica, you want to go in and see tlx President?” 

1 !I Justbecauseitkindoftookmebysurprise,totell 

1 !2 you the truth. 

1 !3 And I asked her again, “You want to go in and 

1 !4 see the President?” 

1 !5 And she said, “Yes.” I’m almost 100 percent sure, 

Page 26 

1 “He’s called over and needs these papers.” 

2 Q Okay. You’re almost 100 peroznt sure that she 

3 said, “He’s called over and needs these papers.” 

4 A Yes. “He needsthesepapers. 

5 Q Okay. By the way, in any of your conversations 

6 that you had with Monica Lewinsky prior to that date, did she 

7 ever mention the President? 

8 A Ithinkshementionedthatshemethim--thefirst 

9 time she met him at a social event and she was just saying 

1 .O how, you know, sbe met the President the night before or that 

1 ,I evc%ing. 

I .2 Q Okay. Had she ever discussed with you any 

I #3 friendship or relationship with the President prior to that 

1 :4 date.? 

1 .5 A No. 

I 16 Q Okay. So - 

1 17 MR. WISENBERG: Prior to what date? 

I i8 MS. WIRTH: Easter Sunday. 

1 19 THE WlTNESS: Easter Sunday. 

; !O BY MS. WIRTH: 

; !I Q So when you said to ha, “You want to see the 

; !2 President” and you said you were almost 100 percent 

i !3 sure, “He’s called over for some papers,” what happened 

2 !4 next? 

I 

1 !5 A Ialmost-Ilookedattbeagenttoseewhathis 

_ 

I-. PILeem Tuesdav. Julv 21_ 1998 

1 

2 

3 

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6 

7 

8 

9 

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Page 27 

mponse was, almost like if k’s going to say no or if he’s 

going to say yes, and by facial expressions, hc was almost 

takingmyleadonthisandsoIsaid,“Iguesswelether 

in.” 

Q And how did that come about? ’ bid you assist her in 

opening the door or what happened? 

A WhatIdidtbcn.andIdon’tknowwhyIdidthis.1 

stepped back and I said, “Okay, you can go 011 in.” 

AndsheTtand-Ialmostinawayjustwanted 

2’ 

3 Qm 

4 Am 

5 6:w7 Q-. 

8 A 

gQ:-. ‘0 

‘1 AU 

2 Q AndwhenyouopenedthedooroftheOvalOff~ce, 

:3 what did you see inside? 

4 A ThePresidentwassittingatthe~alOfficedesk 

‘5 on the telephone. He was dressed casually. He had his 

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eyeglasses on at tk bridge of his nose and she enrcrcd tk 

mom. 

Q Okay. Andhcwasspcakingonrbcpho~tk 

Residalt was? 

A Correct. 

Q Didyouhcartbmsayanytbingtocachotbzrwhcn 

ok cntued tbc room? 

A No. Sk walkai stmight into tk room, right to 

tk Oval Office, tk front of tbc Oval Oftice desk and the 

special agent closed the door. 

Q Okay. And what hap@ next? About how long wuc 

they in then kforc sormhng hap& next? 

A Approximately maybe 20 minutes to 25 minutes 

hUKpifCd. 

Q And did anyone dsc ~ltcr tbc Oval OfFice in that 

mG3IltiIlE? 

No. 

Did anyone else kave? 

No. 

Okay. Or did anyoac kavc tbc Oval Off~icc? 

No. 

By the way, wcac any of the P&dent’s sccrc(arics 

wnrkillg that day? 

A No. 

Q EUy Cunie was not working? 

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1 A No. Their office was vacant and the door was 

2 locked. 

3 Q Okay. Were any of the President’s stewards working 

4 that day? 

5 A Idou’tknowiftheywereworking. lbeyweren’tin 

6 that proximity. I did not sx them. Most of the time, w 

7 would see them going in and out of the pantry. I didn‘t see 

8 any of them working that day either. 

9 Q Okay. So was there anybody in the vicinity of tbc 

0 Oval Office that you saw that day aside from - 

1 A No, just th President waking over -- 

.2 Q - the agent and the President and Monica. 

3 A And then Monica Lewinsky coming ova shortly after. 

4 Q Okay. So -- 

5 THE FOREPERSON: Ms. Wirth? 

6 MS. WIRTH: Sure. 

7 THE FOREPERSON: Before we get too deep into this 

8 segmenf I think we ought to break for lunch. 

9 MS. WIRTH: Okay. 

!O MR. WISENBERG: Do we know if it’s here? 

!I MS. WIRTH: Is it here? 

!2 MR. WISENBERG: Do you want mc to check? 

!3 THE FOREPERSON: I’m pretty certain. It’s a 

!4 quarter to one. 

!5 MS. WIRTH: Then we’ll take a break now. 

Page 30 

Tuesday, July 21,1998 

Page 31 

1 AFTERNOOS SESSIOh’ 

2 (1:52 pm.) 

3 Whcnupon. 

4 JOHN FTlZCXRALD MUSKElT 

5 was rccallai as a witness and afta having ban previously 

6 duly sworn by tbz Fv ofthcGrandJrPy,wascxam&d 

7 and testifii furtkz as follows: 

8 EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 

9 MR. WISENBERG: Lu tk rrrord xfkzt tk witness 

0 hascntedtbcgrandjuryroan. 

1 UadamF~do~bavcaquaum? 

2 THE FOREPERSON: Yes, we do. 

3 MR. WISENBERG: An tbuc any unautbo~ pasons 

4 p-t in tbc grand jury room? 

5 THE FOREPERSON: Tba-c an none. 

6 h4R. WISENBERG: Tkmk you. 

7 THE POREPERSON: Officer Muha, you arc still 

8 under oath. 

9 BY Ms. WIRTH: 

:o Q Okay. Itbinkataboutthctimewcbrokc~wac 

:l talki~abouttbtfacttbatMoaicaLcwinskyhadcomctothc 

2 Oval Offke that day. which was Easti Sunday 1996, nnd I 

.3 thinkyoujusttoldustbatitwasabwt2Oto25~urcS 

4 bcfofCanythingbap~tk%skwas intheOvalOffii 

.5 with tk President for about 20 0 25 minutes b&w anything 

Page 3L 

1 happened and that to your knowledge there was no one else in 

2 theovai0ff1ce. Isthatcarrtct? 

3 A &-rect. 

4 Q Okay. And you saw no one else go into the Oval 

5 Office during that period. 

6 A tirrect. 

7 Q And you saw no one Ieave. 

8 A Correct. 

9 Q And no one was working that day in the vicinity. 

0 A Correct. 

1 Q Okay. So what happened next? 

2 A At that tii, the phone rang. We have a Secret 

3 Service telephone which is &uaIIy a telephone for the 

4 complex. The phone mng right outside the OvaI OfI& nt-ar 

5 postC_‘. ?bespe4zialagentansweredthephone. 

6 Hewastalkingtoxuxbody,Idon’tknowwhohewas 

7 talkingtoatthattime. Attbatpoint,hesaid,“Justa 

8 minute. Let me hand you over to the uniformed division 

9 officer on duty.” 

0 Atthattime,Ianswucdthephone. Itwastbe 

I WhiteHouseopcratorlettingmeknowthattheResidcnthas 

2 animportantpbonecaIlandarthattimeI)cncwtkpcrson 

3 whowascalling. ‘Iheopera%rgavemetlxaamofthc 

4 gentleman. I cannotrecall ittoday. 

5 Itoldthcoperator,“TbcPresiclentisintbcOval 

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1 T’HE FOREPERSON: We should return at a quarter to 

2 two. 

3 (Whereupon, at 12:46 p.m., a luncheon recess was 

4 taken.) 

5 l **** 

2 

2 I 2 

2 

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1 Office. You can put the phone call through.” 1 A Theagentstoppedandthenbedidkncck. Therewas 

2 And she said he wasn’t answering his phone. 2 no reply. Tben again the agent knocked a little louder and 

3 SoIsaid”We’llmakesurebegetsthenxssage 3 still tbcre was no reply. 

4 that there’s an important phone call for him.” 4 Q Was the agent saying anything or just knocking? 

5 Q Does it refresh your memory whether tbc person who 5 A Just knocking at this time. 

6 was ealhng was Dick Morris? 6 Q About how loud? 

7 A Excuseme? 7 A It’shardforme8 Q Dick Morris? Does that name sound familiar? 8 Q Likeztnaverageknockorbanging? 

9 A No. l-hat name doesn’t sound familiar to me. 9 A No,no. Itwasnobanging. The frrstknockwas 

0 Q Didyourecognizethenameatthetimeofwhowas 10 (knocking), a knock similar to that, and then the next one 

lcauing? 11 wasalittlelouderandtberewasstillnomsponse. So 

2 A No. 12 atthatpoinStbeagentopenedthedooruptotbeOva1 

3 Q Okay. Soitwasapersonyouhadnewhardof 13 Office. 

4 before? 14 Q That’s still the 1l:OO door? 

5 A Yes. Something I was not very familiar with. 15 A ‘he 1l:OOdoormarkedC. ThesamedoorMonica 

6 Q ABright. Andthepersonwhopickeduptbephone 16 walked&o. 

7 at fvst was Regional Hightower? 17 Q Okay. And, actually, it looks like all the doors 

8 A I believe it was Special Agent Hightower, to the 18 have a C on them. 

9 best of my recollection. 19 A Oh, I’m sorry. 

0 Q Okay. And he handed over the phone to you. 20 Q But it’s the 1l:OO door? 

1 A Correct. 21 A Yes. The 11:00 door. 

2 Q And you said the White House operator was on the 22 Q Okay. All right. So when theagent opened the 

3 phone? 23 door, did he go inside the Oval Offtce? 

4 A Right. 24 A Fiithingtbathedid,helookedinsidethe 

5 Q Wasitaheorashe? 25 oval - actually, I was right behind him and we didn’t see 

__ 

Page 34 Page 36 

1 A I believe it was a female. 1 thePresident. 

2 Q Okay. And she told you that she had rung in the 2 Q Did you see anyone? 

3 Oval Office already? 3 A No. Nobody was in sight. The agent called out to 

4. A She said the President wasn’t picking up. 4 the President. To this day I think the best recollection, he 

5 Q Okay. And what happened after that? 5 said, ‘Mr. President.” 

6 A I’m not exactly sure what we did with the phone. 6 Q And at that point, had he stepped inside the Oval 

7 I don’t know if we put the opemtor on hold, but the next 7 Office? 

8 thingIdoknowwedid,Imadementiontotheagentwehave 8 A No. 

9 to, you know, let the President know he’s got an important 9 Q He was still at the &x.&old? 

0 phone call coming in. 10 A Yes. As we were looking in, we noticed to our 

1 Q So did you tell the opemtor that you would make 11 immediate right - on this map, it would be approximately 

2 efforts to - 12 9:00, there’s a door that goes to the study - 

3 A To be honest with you, I’m not really sure what I 13 Q Okay. Do you want to mark that with a green dot? 

4 told the operator. I’m pretty sum I told the opcmtor we’ll 14 I’m giving you a green pen. And this is on JIM-4. 

5 make sure the President knows he’s got a phone call. 15 Okay. 

6 Q Okay. 16 the 9:00 door. 

So for the record, you put a green dot at 

7 A Atthattime,theagentwenttogoopenthedoor. 17 Now, from the threshold of the 1l:OO door, could 

8 I told him to first knock. 18 you see into the hallway where the 9:00 door is? 

9 Q And which door would that be? 19 A We could not see. We could see the door was ajar, 

0 A That would be the door marked C. 20 it was open. It was not closed. 

1 Q Which is that 11:00 door? 21 Q And that’s the 9:00 door that you’re talking about. 

2 A That would be the 11:OO door. Exactly. 22 A Correct. 

3 Q SothesamedoorMonicawentin. 23 Q Okay. The door from the Oval Off& was ajar. 

4 A Right. 24 When you say ajar, was it fully swung open? 

5 Q Sogoahead. 25 A No. I don’t know -- I can’t give you &grees. 

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1 It was not halfway open, it was less than halfway open, but 1 Q O~Y. 

2 it wasn’t leaned closed, it was between halfway leaned 2 A When I say - I mcan, I don’t know the de&Is of 

3 against open. 3 it. Thx might be Like a littk pantry thing that goes 

4 Q And being what? 4 right to the study ana but I always cons&cd that in my 

5 A Not fully open, not halfway between -- I guess 5 mind the study area, just because I have not ban back tkaz 

6 it was three-quarters closed. 6 that oftal. 

7 Q Okay. Okay. So the agent called out 7 Q Okay. So when you testif& last waAc that the 

8 “Mr. President” at the threshold. 8 door to tbc study was prop@ open, you momt this 9:00 door 

9 A Right. 9 A Right. 

0 Q And you looked and you could see that that door I 0 Q And it actually wasn’t proppal open. it was just a 

1 wasaquarteropen. 1 1 quarwofthewayop. 

2 A Right. I was right behind the special agent at 1 .2 Right. 

3 that time. 1 3 okay. okay. Allrigbt. so what happened next? 

4 Q Okay. That’s the 9:00 door. And then what 1 4 lkagenttookoneortwostepsia. 

5 happened? 1 5 Into the oval OffIce? 

6 A The agent took approximately one or two steps 1 6 Yes. CallcdonttothePreGdaitalittkloudcr 

7 inside to the right going towards the study doer. 1 7 this time. 

8 Q And when you say the study door, are you referring 1 8 Q Wbatdidksay? 

9 to the 9:00 door? 1 9 A “Mr. President” 

0 A The 9:00 door. 2 10 Q “Mr. Residcnt’l 

1 Q But that’s not the door that leads into the actual 2 !I A Hcanswercd. 

2 study, is it? It’s a door that leads to a conidor’that 2 12 Q He being tk Rsident? 

3 leads to the study? Is that right? 2 13 A The Presidait of the United States did an-. 

4 Look at the map for a moment. Looking at JIM-4, 2 :4 Q Whatdidksay? 

5 do you see a room where the actual study is? 2 :5 A Itsounded-Imeart,tkbestIcanrccoUec~it 

Page 38 Page 4L 

1 A I want to be completely honest here, which is I 

2 know I have to do -- 

3 Q Which you’re supposed to be. 

4 A I’m not 100 percent sure of the layout. I know 

5 I’ve gone through this area before, but to this day, if you 

6 told me exactly -- because that area’s a really secured area, 

7 if you told me it was the hallway - I know it went to the 

8 studyarea 

9 Q So what you’re saying is that you haven’t 

0 worked this post so often that you’ve actually been back 1 

1’ there. 1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

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A I have been back there, but at this point here 

in time, I cannot tell you exactly the layout. I know it 

goes to the study off the oval, I know he’s got a nict study 

back there, another bigger room with - you know -- but 1 

cannot tell you what doors -- is there a hallway. 

Q Okay. Well, let me ask you this. This 9:00 door 

that we’ve marked with the green dot. 

A Yes. 

Q Are you saying that you’re not sure whether that 

leads directly into the actual study or whether it leads 

into a corridor that leads to the study? You don’t know 

which? 

A In my recollection, I think that area is called the 

shdya=. 

1 was like “Huh?” Almost to that extent. 

2 Q And where was the voice coming from? What 

3 direction? 

4 A Back in the area that I considered the 9:00 area 

5 which I in my mc.olIection I &led the study area. 

6 Q Okay. And when the President said something to the 

7 effect of “Huh” did the agent respond? 

8 A He said, “You have a phone call” and he said he’ll 

9 get it. 

0 Q And the Resident said, “I’ll get it”? 

1 A To the best of my meollection. 

2 Q Okay. Didthe Presidentcomeout? 

3 A No. 

4 Q Didyouseehimatthattime? 

5 A No. 

6 Q Did you see Monica at that time? 

7 A No. 

8 Q Did you hear Monica at that time? 

9 A No. 

0 Q Okay. When the President said, “I’ll get it,” 

1 toyourknowledge,isthereaphoneinthestudy? 

2 A I’m not sure. 

3 Q Okay. 

4 A I could answer based on experience, yes, I’m sure 

5 them’saphonebackthere,butII re: Grand Jury Proceedings 

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1 Q You don’t know for sure. 1 MR. WISENBERG: Tk court reporter has it. 

2 A I’m not goirq say if I’m not 100 percent sure. 2 TbecourtrqxXterkdtkralpaL 

3 Q So when the PresicIent said, “I’ll get it,” what did 3 Can you mark on JFlM-4 wkt you mcm by tk 

4 youandtbeagentdo? 4 sccrctary’s door? And if you’re not sure - 

5 A We both exited_ I’m not even sure, I might have 5 THE WITNESS: Well. using the pen from tk court 

6 eventakenjustonestepin,buttheagentthencameri&t 6 rcportu, tkrc’s actually - 

7 ha& out and he closed the door which would be the 9:oO 7 Tllisdiagnun-see,wkt’sgeningmemessedup 

8 dear-Iman-I’msorry,thcll:OOdooronthi~~ 8 kreistknccptionarcab=rc-I’mrcfa+ngtothis9 map. Closed the door. 9 eaaIusethis7 Maybethismightbealittkbcnn. 

10 Q So you went hack through the door. The two of you 10 MR. WISENBERG: Sure. Yes. You’vegot FM-1 now. 

I 1 wurt back through the door that you had come in. 11 THE WlTNESS: Right. 

12 A Yes. 12 MR. WISENBERG: Tltis migbt klp a littk. Let mc 

13 Q Okay. Only you may have just stepped one foot 13 just14 inside. 14 THEWITNESS: I’mrcfeningtothisareainkm. 

15 A Yes. 15 what’sgetting-tllisamabea&Ibelieveisgoingtok 

16 Q All right. And where did the two of you go when 16 Betty Cttnic and Nancy Han&h’s office door and this is 

17 you came back out into what’s been marked here on JRtl-4 as 17 UC area. so I guess on tttis - 

18 walkway number 2? 18 MR. WISENBERG: Let me represent to you tbat uz 

19 A Weatoodrighttkreinthewalkwaynumber2. 19 have been told tbat rigltt outside tk l.:oO door is wkm 

20 Q Whichisthereddotareaonthemap. 20 ESetty Currie’s desk is and that in hem, this little almost 

21 A Right. 2 1 like a separate office within this area, Nancy Hanreich bas 

22 Q Okay. And then what happened? 22 adesk. 

23 A At this time, the qet’tt was reheved. Another 23 THE WlTNESS: Right. 

24 agent came on post. I’m not really sure how much time 24 h4R. WISENBERG: So I don’t know if that klps any 

25 transpired between the post teheVing. 25 in your d*nm;ning - 

__ 

Page 42 Page 44 

1 Q Anddo you rrmanber tbat agents name? 1 THE WITNESS: Basically, it’s one door bat. 

2 A Yes. AndI’mnotevutsum 1OOpcrccntsum 2 Tbat’s what got me - measal my thing up b was this km. 

3 oftkorder. TkrecouldbaVebknattothaagmtinbehvacn 3 Buttbisistbedoorkwasbcadingfor. Hcaeparatalus. 

4 tkse two. Tbat would k Special Agent CL Michael Wilson, 4 I was standing approximately kac at this doorway, 

5 nfand to as Michael Wilson. 5 almost right h4 walking past through us. saying be2 going 

6 Q Okay. So be came. Michael Wilson. came on duty? 6 in to see tk Resident. and k’s waking towards tk 

7 A Yes. 7 sozretary’s door, which was locked at tbc time. 

8 Q And what happenal next? 8 MR. WISENEJERG: Okay. And can you mark what the 

9 A At this point in time. when I was standing across . 9 lockal saxtary’s door was? 

IO from the Oval Office door, which would k tk 1l:OO door, I 10 THE WITNESS: Right bae. 

11 was almost standing at the Roosevelt Room door, coming from 11 MR. WISENBERG: On 4 with rui. Okay. All right. 

I2 wallnvay number 1, I saw a gentleman coming down casually 12 Letmejustwaitforamomcnt-letmetaketbis 

I3 drcssal and k separated mc and hficbael and k basically said 13 for a moment and show the grand jurors wkre we’re talking 

14 be’s going in to see tk Resident and k was wdking towards 14 about. 

IS tksaretaty’sdoor. 15 This would basically k betweut - tk door ktwncat 

16 Q Okay. Now. what you say k sepamtcd you. k 16 what we’ve called waiting area number 1 and tk corridor 

17 walkedinbctwanyou? 17 kadingtotkmceptionama. 

18 A Right. Because me and Micbacl were basically 18 Thank you. 

19 taking back and forth to each other. 19 BY US. WIRTH: 

20 MR. WISENBERG: Can you tell us - pardon me for 20 Q Okay. And just so wt can distinguish those two ted 

21 interrupting. Wkn you say the secretary’s door, can you 21 dots from each other, can you circle with this blue pen the 

22 mark- 22 rul dot l&ing to tk seeretaty+ area? okay. All right. 

23 WhathappuKdtotkredpen? 23 ” S6didyourccognizcthismanwknkwascoming 

24 On JFM4, can you - 24 down tbe hallway? 

25 Ms. WIIUH: That’s red. 25 A I rucgnizal him as being a paasholdcz. 

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1 Q But you didn’t know his name? 

2 A No. And I didn’t even know if he was a&orized, 

3 to be honest with you, to go in. Because on tha: post, there 

4 are certain people authorized to go in to see the President. 

5 As be’s saying that, I’m almost about to amfront 

6 the gentleman, ask him his identity, when -- I’m sorry, I 

7 should answer your question 

8 Q l-benwhathappened? 

9 A when Special Agent Michael Wilson said ‘He’s okay. 

1 0 That’s Harold Ickes.” And Harold Ickes at that time which 

1 1 I last time idmtifiai him Friday as Chief of Staff. he’s 

1 2 Deputy Chief of Staff/Special Assistant to the Resident. 

1 3 Q Atthattime. 

1 4 A Atthattime. 

1 5 Q And you now know that because someone else told you 

1 6 that or has your memory been refreshed? 

1 7 A Idid research. I did research. 

1 8 Q You researched this? 

1 9 A Yes. 

2 .O Q Okay. AIlright. Buthewasapersonwhowas 

2 1 working at the White House at that time. 

2 2 A Yes. 

2 3 Q So the route that he took to the Oval Offiice was 

2 4 through that blocked secretary’s door. 

2 5 A I was thz one that unlocked it for him. Correct. 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1’ 

1 

1 

1’ 

2 

2 

2 

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2 

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Page 46 

1 Q Okay. And when you unlocked the secmucy’s door 

2 for him, where did Mr. Ickes go? 

3 A He went inside. 

4 Q Okay. By tbe way, between those two routes, the 

5 route that Monica took into the Oval Office, which is the red 

6 dot marked rearm at 1 l:OO, and the route throt@ the 

7 secretary’s door, which is the normal route, if you know, 

8 that the President’s staff would take into the Oval Office? 

9 A I’m really not 100 percent sure. 

0 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

1 Q Do you know why he went that way? 

2 A No. That’s one of the things since my last 

3 interview with the Independent Counsel that was brought up. 

4 Imcan,Inevareallywentbeyondthar,whyhcwwldgo 

5 through the secretary’s door. 

6 Q Did either you or Agent Wilson indicate to him any 

7 way, shape or form that he shouldn’t go in the 11:OO door? 

8 A No. No. 

9 BY MS. WIRTH: 

0 Q Now, whem you unlocked the door for Mr. I&es, you 

1 said he stepped inside. Did you see where he went? 

2 A No. He stepped inside and I closed the doa. 

3 Q You closed the door behind him. 

4 A correct. 

5 Q So you did not see what happened next. 

ii- Pagem Tuesday, July 21,1998 

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A No. 

Page 47 

Q And where was Agent Wilson? 

A Ilefth.iminthew&waynumber2areaoutsidethe 

Oval Oflice door, theMR. WISENBERG: Mary Anne? 

MS. WIRTH: Yes? 

MR. WISENBERG: Sony - 

MS, WIFUH: Go abead. As much as you want. 

Goahead. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q When you say you let him in and you closed tbe door 

again_ are you still talking about - maybe I wasn’t 

listening correctly. You’re still talking about that door 

that you’ve identified with a dot, correct? 

A With the blue circle around the red dot. 

Q Okay. Fii. In other words, you didn’t follow him 

to the 1:OO door to the Oval office. 

A No. No, sir. 

MR. WISENBERG: Okay. Fme. Sorry. 

MS. WIRTH: That’s okay. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q All right. So what happened next? 

A Iwentbacktothe_arearightoutsidewhere 

shortly--Imean,Idon’tknowhowmuchsoonaaftathatI 

hea.rdthedoorclose-adoorclose,ccmingfromthewalkwr 

1 

2 

3 

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8 

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0 

1 

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B 

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Page 4, 

number 1 area. which I witmssaJ Monica Lewinsky going down 

tbc hallway. 

Q Okay. Now, I believe wbea you tcstifii last vv& 

1thinkyouusedtbcword’~“wbcnyouhcardasound 

comiag. ‘Ihc next thing you beard. Was it a loud door 

closing or not? 

A If I used “boom,” I don’t know where thet came 

from. I beard a door close. It was definitely a door 

closing, which b&g a uniformed division offiu7, I’m 

haired for observation, to watch and I basically walkul 

down that hallway, I wanted to sz who was - one of my jobs 

is monitoring ail the doors and &at’s when I witncsscd 

Monica Levinsky going down the balhvay. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q I think on Friday you said “swoting’7 

A Well, she was going down the hallway. 

MR. WISENEERG: Cao I iafanrpt again? 

Ms.WIRTH: sure. 

BY MR. \HISENBERG: 

Q Caayoutcllus-IthiakyousaidFtidayA IfIeaa-itwouldbeapcrfccttimerightnow, 

Ict’s take the word “scooting” out because I’d he+te to have 

tbisd&gfartbdowatkroadformteidartifywhat 

. . %ccotmg” IS and I wouldn’t know bow to ansvwr that. 

Q Okay. 

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1 A I saw Monica Lewinsky walking down tk hallway. 1 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

2 Q Okay. How quickly was sk walking? 2 Q Doyoursallwhethaitwas-I’mnotsayinetbat 

3 A Abrisk walk. 3 you can distir@sb tbse sounds, but whctba it was a 

4 Q O~Y. 4 rcgulardoorasopposedtoaswinginglypedoorwhatyou 

5 A Sk was not just casually walking. I mean, I 5 would maybe bear man than just one closing, you’d kar kind 

6 dida’tidentifyitasacasualwalk. Skwas-abriskwalk 6 ofa7 downlkballway. 7 A I’mjustgoingtorefrainfromtbat. Imcan8 Q I klieve Friday you testTrd that you couldn’t k 8 Q Youcan’t9 100 perceat sure. but you tbougbt sk came out tk pantry 9 A No,Ireallycannot. 

0 dear. Is thatcomzct? 10 h4.R. WISJZNBERG: Okay. 

1 4 No,Iwasnot-Iwasnonot 1OOpaccntsurewbich 11 BY MS. WIRlHz 

2 dm*exitaloutof. Itwaaeitbutbepantryortbe 12 Q- WknyoulookaMownwbat’smarkcdontbatdiagmm 

3 diniagroom~I’mnot1OOpcncntsure. 13 JFh4-lintowallnvayl andyousawMonica,yousaid-Ithink 

4 Q AU right. Lu m show you on JFM-4 what’s 14 you said briakJy walking away. 

5 c&cd - it’s called Oval Office Compkx in printing of some I5 A Yes. 

6 kindbuttbarsomeonebaswrittmindiningruom. Doyousce 16 Q Whatpartofbubodycouldyouscz? 

7 that? 17 A Thecomplctebacksideofber,fromheaddownm 

8 A Yes, sir. 18 kXfa%. 

9 Q And you’ve got a PD pointing down to a particular 19 Q Okay. Andyourccognizcdhabasedon- 

:O door, a representation of a door, and then on the 20 A I bad a lot of dadings with Monica. I just didn’t 

‘J other side you’ve got -ontbekftsideoftheOvalOff%e 21 ~heronccImctha-Italkcdtohcrprobably3Otims 

.2 complex, you’ve got what appears to k anotba door. Would 22 and I knew it was Monica Lewinsky. 

.3 it kve ban one of these two doors that you saw ha coming 23 Q Okay. Could you rell wktbc~ sk was car+g 

:4 out of7 .24 anythingwitbkr? 

5 A You know, I’m not 100 percent sure because I never 25 A No, I can’t rozall today. 

M.. 

Page 50 Page 52 

1 wit~~~sai her actually coming out tk door. I beard tk door 1 Q Wastbereanythingdifferentaboutherappeamncz 

2 cbst. which alarmed me to check the h&way. 2 thanwhatitwaswhenyoufrrssawhexthatday? 

3 Q Okay. You heard the door close and tkn you saw 3 A No. AllIsawwasthebacksideofher. 

4 ha. 4 Q Okay. And she was walking, again, away from you 

5 A Exactly. 1 walked over to that hallway because 5 downwalkway 1. Isthatright? 

6 wba~ you’re sbgding outside tkt - it’s really tough to w 6 A tirrect. 

7 a good view of both ballways. I Q Howsoonafteryouheardthedoorclosedidyousee 

a MR. WISENBERG: Okay. Okay. Sorry. 8 Monica in the walkway walking away? 

9 Ms. WIRTH: okay. That’s okay. 9 A Probably - the door closing alarmed me, probably 

0 BY MS. WIRTH: 10 withintlmxsxcmds. 

J Q Tk door that you kard close, bow would you 11 Q Okay. And when you say it alarmed you, was that 

2 dcscrii rk sound that you beard? Tkre are diffatnt ways 12 ~useyou’resupposedtobeawareoftbcmovementsiothal 

3 that a door can close. It can close - you know - quickly, 13 area? 

4 quicttv- 14 A Oh, definitely. Definitely. Basically, my job as 

5 A What I’m trying to really do is really watch out 15 a uniformed off&r on the weekends, it’s basically a quiet 

6 for key words because I know tky could come back to haunt me 16 West Wing, any door, anything in that area, I’m Rsponsible 

7 as saying, you know, you luard tk door close with a 17 for. 

8 gentk - I mean. what I’m trying to say is it wasn’t a slam. 18 Q Okay. Now, from the time that you let Mr. Ickes 

9 sk didn’t lean the door closed, gently push, it was - 19 into the locked secretary’s door which you’ve marked with the 

0 tbc door was closing. So it’s really tough for me to 20 red dot with the blue circle around it on JFM-4, from the 

1 idaMy that. Unless you want to use some words and I 21 timeyoulethimintothatdooruntilthetimeyouhtardthe 

2 couldsay- 22 door in wallcway 1 close, about how much time pas&? 

3 Q No. But it wasn’t a slam. 23 A Notvesymuchtime. 

.4 A No. It was not a slam. but it was loud enough for 24 Q Okay. Can you measure itinanyway? 

15 me to hear it, so it wasn’t Iike sk just lcanai it closed. 25 A Lessthan a minute. 

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1 Q Okay. Now, what did you next see after you saw 

2 Monica briskly walking away down walkway number I? 

3 A That’s about it. 

4 Q Okay. Did you ever see Mr. Ickes again that day? 

5 A I can’t recall. I can’t recall what time he left. 

6 I didn’t see him leaving. All that really sticks in my 

7 memory are those facts that I just gave to you. 

8 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

9 Q Didyouhearduringthetimethat-Iknowitwas 

0 a brief period, you said it was during this period between 

1 letting Mr. Ickes in and seeing Monica go down the hallway, 

2 but did you hear Mr. Ickes saying anything? 

3 A No, sir. 

4 Q Through the 1l:OO door? 

5 A No. 

6 Q That’s a no? 

7 A No, sir. 

8 BY MS. WIRTH: 

9 Q Did you ever see the President again that day? 

10 A I’m not 100 percent sure. 

:1 Q When you testified last week and you wefe talking 

:2 about the point when you went in with - when the agent wen 

13 inside the Oval Off%ze to announce to the President that he 

14 had a phone call and you were standing near the threshold, 

15 you said you made a comment, “What is going on in there?” 

Page54 

1 Doyou remember testifying about that? 

2 A That was not at that time. 

3 Q That was not -- 

4 A No. 

5 Q When wasthat? 

6 A That was going back to the time when me and Special 

7 Agent Mike Wilson were present in the hallway outside that 

8 1l:OO doorway. 

9 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

0 Q Is that a little later? 

1 A This is -- 

2 Q Between the phone call and the Ickes visit? 

3 A Yes. Right. It was before the Ickes visit and it 

4 was after the phone call. 

5 BY MS. WIRTH: 

6 Q Oh, I see. Okay. And you said that to Agent 

7 Wilson? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q And what did you mean when you said that? What 

0 were you referring to? 

1 A curiosity question, I guess. 

2 Q Were you referring to the fact that Monica was in 

3 the oval office area? 

4 A Yes. Yes,1 was. 

5 Q Okay. Did Agent Wilson respond to you when you 

1 askad that quation? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Whatdidksay? 

4 A “Hc wouldn’t be that stupid.” 

5 Q Okay. Now. did you ever speak to Monica Lcwinsky 

6 about what bapm that day aftez it happenai? 

7 A I was approackd by Monica Lewinsky. Kind of - 

8 thcway~storyunravckdhacistbatdaywasasunday, 

9 it was Monday I found out. I bclicvc Monday or Tuesday, chat 

0 was Monica’s last day at the white House. that I saw Monica 

1 backasawmkinginmntlmcintlr.EastWing. And&r 

2 on is when during a social mnt Monica Lcwi&y approactxd 

3 mcontbcstarcfloor. 

4 Q About how long after? 

5 A I’m not really sure. 

6 Q Was it within a month? 

7 A Sk was at tk Pentagon. 

8 Q Was it within a month of that Eastcz Sunday? 

9 A I’m not really sue. 

0 'Q Wasittksameycar? 

1 A I’mnotfcfdlysurc,tobcbonestwithyou. 

2 Q Okay. So you mn working a social -17 

3 A Iwasworkingasocialcvent. Iwaspostionthe 

4 state tloor by tbc north portico doors. 

5 Q Was that the fust time you had m Monica since 

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she left the White House? 

A I’mnOt 100~tsUfebeCaU.Xskhadbeenback 

several times at different social events. 

Q And did she approach you? 

A Yes. 

Q Did sk say something to you? 

A Shesaidsheneededtotalktome. 

Q And what did you say? 

A Isaidsureandwebasically-mll,atthattime, 

wewerekindofintbemiddleofthchallway,intheBenaal 

area,andwewalkedalittlebitoutoftbewayoft.hecrowd, 

ofguestscomingupthestairs,andshestatedthatshe 

thought her and I were really good friends and I responded 

that, yes, we are very good friends. 

Atthattime,shemadea statement - I’m not 

100 percent sure, I’m paraphrasing herr, that somebody’s 

been spreading rumors about her and the Resident of the 

United States and I reacted by saying, “Do you think it’s 

me?” 

AndtbcnIwentontosay,“Well,Monica,thelast 

timeIsawyw2”itmusthave~thclasttimIsawher. 

“youwcnttotheOvalOfficcEasterSundaytsndInevcrsav 

you again.” 

And she responded, oh, no, she didn’t think it was I 

me, but somebody’s been -- you know, telling rumors. Sk 

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I goes, “Well, I’m glad we’re good friends.” And we left it at 1 was a huge tent on the south grounds, but we were setting q 

2 &at. 2 getting the axa set up, Monica Lewinsky got my attention. 

3 Q Didsbemakeany comment about the Easter Sunday 3 Shewaswearingabigsunhat. Iwalkedoverto 

4 remark that you made? Did she respond to that at all? 4 her and I forgot who was with kr. I believe it was one 

5 A No. 5 parent, I can’t rememberifitwaslxrfatherorhermother, 

6 Q Was anyone else present during that conversation 6 andsheintrodueedme. Isaidhi. 

7 besides the two of you? 7 And she asked if she could get into -- I believe 

8 A Present? 8 the gold rope area. Get closer to where the Resident would 

9 Q Mm&mm. 9 be. 

0 A In the immediate conversation? 10 Kind of filling everybody in, when we have a state 

1 Q hfI.m-hmm. 11 arrivalceremony,therearecertainareasclosedofffortbe 

2 A No. 12 publictocomeupwithtieketsaodthenwhatwcconsidergo 

3 Q Okay. Did anyone overbear it? 13 rope would be for top staff as well as close friends and 

4 A No. I believe there was one person in the general 14 family, congressnen and friends and family, and she was 

5 area who saw me probably talking to her. I think that was 15 making a request to get closer to the gold rope ama. 

6 Robyn Dickey at the time, but I ¬ be 100 percent sure. 16 Q Okay. And is there anything more that you recall 

7 Q Who is Robyn Dickey? 17 about your conversation? 

8 A Robyn Dickey at that time was working in the social 18 A I then went to Ann McCoy, let her know Monica was 

9 office in the White House. She was not clove enough to 19 there requesting a closer -- and Ann McCoy said let her stay 

:0 overhear the conversation. 20 where she’s at. 

11 BY MR. WISENBERG: 21 Q Okay. Did you ever discuss the Resident with 

:2 Q Did she ask you anything about the cxmvesation 22 Monica that day? 

:3 later? 23 A No. 

:4 A Actually, I think I approached her. I’m not 100 24 Q Okay. Have you had any conversations with Monica 

is percent sure what I said to her at the time. 25 Lwinsky when you’ve discussed the President? 

_. 

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1 Q Do you ranember tk gist of what you told ha? 1 A Never. Besides that one situation wbcre sk said 

2 A Ican’tk IOOpa’centsum. 2 skwantcdtogetintothcOvalOfficttos&tbcRcsidcnt 

3 Q Any idea of what you told ha? 3 and the second one being what the F’residcnt’s name was 

4 _ A I didn’t tell her about the convasation we bad. 4 mentioned on tk state floor, asking qustions about her 

5 I ma& a remark, you know, about Monica. I’m not mally 5 stating rtmtors arc being spread about kr. 

6 IO0 pcxent sure wkt I said to Robyn Dickey. 6 Q Okay. That conversation that you bad with Monica 

7 MR. WISENBERG: Okay. 7 Lewinsky on tbc state floor, tk one you’ve just refermd to 

8 BY MS. WIRTH: 8 wbem sk mentioxd that rumors bad bun spread about kr and 

9 Q Have you bad any otkr conversations with Monica 9 tk Pmsidatt, you took a privilege with rcspcet to that 

0 that you recall? 10 conversation in our. previous discussions. Is (hat cotmet? 

1 A No. With Monica? 11 A Cormet. 

2 Q Mm-bmm. 12 Q Arc tkm any otha privileged conversations or 

3 A Oh. Yes. Thisbadtodowitb-itwasafter 13 conversations to which you took a privikge that you had with 

4 Monica’s deparmm from tbc Wbitc House. WC wuc at - aLso. 14 Monica Izwinsky tkt you tecall? 

5 ifIcouldaskyou,Iknowalotoftimcsyoukvccwrything 15 A IthinLtkoncsihlation-tokboncstwitbyou, 

6 I talked about kfote, a lot of it was privikgal and 16 I can’t runember wktkr I declared a privilege or not a 

7 non-privileged. 17 privikgc. 

8 If I’m omitting somctbing, it’s not out of being 18 I ma& mention man even& a social event, I 

9 devious or, you know, not coming fully - thre’s a lot up 19 thing, as being at tk Pentagon what tk President was going 

10 bae and I’m still nervous bat. so I have no problem with 20 to k going over for a littk speech and someone identifti 

!I you saying, “John, do you remem ber”andIwiIlcome- 21 Monica in tk ordia area and made mention to the detail, but 

12 At Fort Mcyas, it was a state arrival ceremony. 22 I didn’t make eontact witb Monica dxe. 

!3 Most state arrival cuanonics am at tk white House south 23 Q Okay. So tbcm’s no otkr convcmations. 

!4 grounds,thiswaschangcdtoFqrtMcyssandIklim-I’m 24 A The last convasation I bad with Monica was 

!5 not sum why it was cbangal to Fort Meyers. but I think tkte 25 probably mayk a month before tk stoty broke or two months 

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before. She was on 17th Street, sitting on a little fence 

area right outside the Old Executive Office Building. And I 

recognizedherandskrecogniredmeandshesaidhiand1 

sa.idhitokrandIkeptongoingtomycar. 

Q Okay. But there’s no other conversation besides 

rk ooe tbat happened on the state floor that you had with 

Monies that was privileged and is no longer privileged, that 

yW==ll. 

A To the best of my knowledge, no. 

Q Have you heard about an incident involving Monica 

thaw happened at the north-t gate to the White House? 

A 

Q 

YlX 

Can you tell the @and jury what you know about 

that? 

A 

Q 

Can I ask which incident at the northwest gate? 

Do you nzcall an incident where you previously told 

us that Monica showed up at the northwest gate and said that 

she had an appointment with the President and the off&r on 

duty told her something to the effect of she would have to 

wait in line to see the Resident? 

A Yes. 

Q Dces that -- 

A Yes, I recall that. Now, those all -- 

Q Is that an accurate description of how you 

previously described that incident? 

I Page63 

1 not sux. 

2 I do know I asked Captain Jeff Purdie after this 

3 incident what happened and be told me, “Don’t ask. Leave it 

4 alone.” To which I said “No fommcnt.” And I left it at 

5 that. I left the office. His office. captain PWWS 

6 office. 

7 Q Have you Lard from anyone eke besides Captain 

8 PurdiewWbertkF?esidmtandCaptainPurdithada 

9 comusation afpr that nonhwcst gate incident? 

0 A Aftatkincidcnt? 

1 Q Mm-bmm. 

2 A You mean when k was summoned? 

3 Q Yes. 

4 A RumorhasitthatkgotcWout. 1mcan.I 

5 don’t know what chewed out means with tk watch commandu CC 

6 just reprimanded h3aybe k wanted - I’m not even sure whet 

7 actually nanspircd 

8 Q Have you kard anything more spazific than that? 

9 A No. 

0 Q Wbmyousaychewedup1 A He got reprimand by tk Resident of tbe United 

2 States, which is. I grss, a pretty saious thing, but I 

3 think k bad to go investigate acnaally what was said at tlr. 

4 gate, which offica said it 

5 Q Do you IUDEDIZU who told you that? 

Page 61 

1 A Could you repeat it? &cause as yuu XVEZ~ saying it I 

2 I was thinking about a wbok otbcr incidm. 2 

3 Q Okay. Why don’t you tell us what you rcr.aU about 3 

4 what you were told. 4 

5 A Okay. This was told to me, you can say bcarsay or 5 

6 third person. 6 

7 Q Do you rcmcmbcr who told you? 7 

B A Iknow-Ican’tk1OOpercentsure. ThatMonica B 

9 Lewinsky showed up at tk northwest gate wishing to gain 9 

9 acass to see tk Resident. !&mething was obviously said to 3 

I ‘Monica Lewinsky or sk ovukard it. Sk bczame upset 1 

2 Something along the lines sk would have to - I’m 2 

3 not even sure what was actually said to Monica but rumor has 3 

8 it scmcthing like+ you know, wait in lim rafting to 0 

5 soxxbodymightk-somanx is already in the Oval office. 5 

5 Sk did gain access to the West Wing. I’m not m 5 

I surr. 100 pcrccnt surr I’m pntty surt it was tbc Oval 7 

3 Offii a short time ati that. I know rumor has it. Saxt 3 

3 savift rumor has it tk watch commander on duty that night 3 

1 was Captain Jeff F?xR& was summoned to the Oval Office. 1 

I Q Okay. Anddidkspeaktoanyonewknkgotto I 

! tk Oval OfTkc. to your knowlaigc based on tk information 2 

g thatyoubcard? 1 

I A The captain? I kliex Captain Jeff Purdic and tk I 

5 R&dent had a convusation. What actually took phcc I’m 5 

A Ihowa&orttimetafterIhadtbcconversatim 

withyouItalkedtooneoftheoff&rswhoknewalotof 

the details, Gary Niedzwieski. Officer Gary Niedzwieski. 

Besides that -- 

Q Okay. Did k tell you what the content of any 

conversation ~~WZZXI the President and Captain Purdie was 

that day? Gary Niedzwieski? 

A No. Ithinktothisday,Ithinkit’sprettystill kept tight lipped on actually what really took place 

between the captain and the President. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Did he telI you about any conversation that Monica 

J_.ewinsky had with anybody at the north- gate? 

A Did Captain F’urdie? 

Q No, this other fellow you named 

A Gary N&k&e&i? 

Q Yes. 

A You know, be started talking to me about it, 

supposedly - he told me be kept pretq accurate records. 

I’m not really sure exactly what was said 

Q Whatwassaidbywho? 

A What the of&er actual@ said to Monica. 

Q Okay. But it was your understanding he was 

actually a witness to that? 

A I believe k might have been one of the officers 

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I thatwcxeupthereatthattime. AndIthink-Iguess- 1 A I’m trying to & now. I’m no1 stalling, I’m 

2 thinkwhatthewholethingwas,Imean,I’mgoing-tobe 2 ju.sttryingtotbinkexactlywbatIsaidtohcr. Idon’t 

3 perfectlyhonesthere,whentbeysaidtitinline,Ithink 3 want to say anything that’s incorrat. I think sk said - 

4 atthistimtherewasanotherfanalcintbeWestWingat 4 I think sk said I probabiy sbouldu’t have Ict kr in. Tbcn 

5 thattime. 5 sk said if you did let ha in, you sbould at kast have 

6 Q Yes. IguesswhatIwasbyingmgetat.since 6 documenti it. 

7 youtalkedto-ifIunderstandwhatyw’resaying,you 7 And wkn I say documental it, outsi& tk Oval 

8 might have talked to him after you talked with agents from 8 Offiitbaz’satabkandmbave-itlooltslikeanigbt 

9 ouroffrathcfirsttimandwhetbcroraotheenlightened 9 s~~satekpbonetben:witbtbelogbooks. 

0 you - IO Quiteoftcntbosekgbooksarcusalforwbaltbc 

1 A Oh,GaryNiedzwi&i? 11 Rcaidah not there, anybody Stepping insi& tk Oval 

2 Q Yes. Sincehewasoneofthe-apparentlyor 12 OfficGtkybavctockCktbcphonelinesforsecurallines. 

3 possiblyawitnezsstosomeofthis. 13 ifrbcy’rtgoingintbcrctDjustdustordothcfioors,to 

4 A Right. Ithhkbe’stkaKwhaeI’mgettitIgat 14 vacuum, WC have to write down tk passkldu’s name and wk’s 

5 nowwherehekindoff&dmein,whezcit’smoreofa I5 escult@rbemin. 

6derogatory &atementmadeatMonicareferringtothefemale 16 And I did not make notations in that log book. And 

7 being in the Oval Office. Almost like wait in line. 17 then to cover myself, I basically - I thou&t about it 

B Everybody understands what I mean by derogatory that way ? 18 bssusc normally wba~ tk Resident’s tbae; all guests would 

9 All right. Because the conversation upset Monica. 19 go through tk sarttary’s office door, they won’t go right 

D Q And how do you spell Offlim Nieski’s last 20 intbatmaindomwaythatIrcfcnultoastk11~ 

llXillle? 21 position. 

2 A No,hecauseIcanwriteit-Icanseeitthat 22 Q Did you CVQ do any documentation for your own 

3 way. 23 purposes of tk cveats of that day, that Easta Sunday? 

4 Q Actually, I think I’ve got it. For the record, 24 A No, I did not. 

5 it’s N-i-e-d-z-w-i-s-k-i. If it’s wrong - that’s wrong? 25 Q Do you rananba anything else about your 

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Page 66 Page 61 

I A 1 think it’s N-i-e-d-z-w-i-e - I think it’s c-k-i 1 conversation with Offiica Vana? 

2 or s-k-i. N-i-e-d-z-w-i-e-s-k-i, I believe. 2 A No. Sk just thought it was funny, the one day I 

3 Q Okay. Thank you. 3 wasffinginforhcrthattookplacc. SoI A And I’m still not 100 percent sure ahout that. 4 Q What about Officer Byroe? What do you mnanba 

5 BY MS. WIRTH: 5 about that convasation? 

s Q Okay. I want to go hack for a moment to the April 6 A IthhkItoldGaryByrncstkstoryandI’mnot 

I Easter Sun&y incident. Did you have any d.iscussims with 7 1OOpcrccntstueonthiscitkr,IthinkGaryByrncsgavcmc 

3 anyone in the Secn5 Service ahout that incident after it 8 infcumation about a situation whert k was in - and I think 

J happened? 9 k was doing some escortin& I forgot who k was escorting 

I A Yes. 10 I’mnot 1OOpercaus~ofthcstory,too,whcIthhkk 

I Q Who did you talk to? 11 obsaved - not observed obsa-vcd but did not know tk 

! A Sandy Vema and Officer Gary Byrne. 12 Fhsidcnt was back in tk study with Monica. And tkn k 

I Q And when did you have those discussions? 13 Walled back outsidc tbc oval. I’m not 100 mt SIKC, but 

I A I believe Sandy Vema was the next business day. 14 IthinkitwasGaryBymcs. 

i I think it was Monday. 15 I know that story’s ban floating around. It’s 

i Q And what did you say to her? 16 Pnnytoughrightnowtryingro~llexacQwhatyou 

1 A IwenttoSandyduetothefacttbatwasherpost. 17 kard,but1 shewastheregularpost,andIjustkindoftoldherthe 18 A JUROR: Is this another incident or tk same 

b situation that took place that Sunday. I guess I was looking 19 ECasla Sunday incident? 

1 for if I did the right thing, the proper procedure to take 20 THE WlTNESS: No, this is a totally diffacnt one. 

place. 21 It’s almost like once I told Gary about that, I think k 

1 Q And when you say “did the right thing,” with 22 said ‘WC& h’s a situation, too. with Monica.” 

I respect to what action? 23 -’ And-&en Gary told mc about anotkr situation with 

I A Letting Monica in. 24 Monica wkrc basically I guess Nancy obsarcd Monica in tk 

i Q Andwhatdidshesay? 25 OvalOfficeonedayandNancyHanreichwasupsetwitbGsry 

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for letting bcr in and Gary’s reply back was to Nancy 

Hemrcich. “Hey, the President askal for Monica to step 

forward.” Which at that point tko Nancy said okay. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q Did k tell you wbcxe Monica was in the Oval Office 

area speciiically? 

A I’mnotnxllysure. Ithinktimt-Imean. 

somewkreinthatarea,backoffintkstudyarca. 

Q Okay. But you’re not sure? 

A I’m not 100 pucent sure of that story exactly. - 

Q AndtotbcbcJtofyourmcmory,GaryByrnctoldyou 

about that story tbc day that you toki him about Easter 

Sunday? 

A I’m not sure where in relationship that was. I 

don’t know if 1 told Gary a wak lakr or - but it’s almost 

Iike - tk only reason I sharad tk story, it wasn’t like I 

was a gossiper, these were post offi that were assigxd 

to tbc West Wing-post and I ~IXSS I went to him, too, 

almost for his okay, you know, have you had any dealings with 

this situation. 

Q I’m just not clear on what you said a momatt ago. 

Did you tell Gary Byme about your Easter Sunday experhcc? 

A Yes. 

Q But it may not have bczn tk vay next day. 

A No. I’mnot’sun. Imean - 

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BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q But was it when you told him tbat that k related 

these otbcr things? 

A I believe so. I think that’s what broke the 

barrier down, not barrier but other r&al stories. It 

wasn’t - we - it’s like tbc day wkn 1 talked to tk 

Independent Counsel several we& ago about who was 

privilcgcd to this information I have. and tbc information 

I’m giving to you today is still not public knowkdge to the. 

Secret Service unihmed division ot special agents. 

We don’t go around from post to post but those wbo 

have had intemctions with Monica. tky related stories. 

So not everybody at tbc White House complex knows my story. 

BY MR. SUSANIN: 

Q Officer Muskett. did you say a few minutea ago 

whenever this occasion was wkre you told Gary Byme what 

happenal, I thought you said k told mc about an incident 

wbcre k caught Monica back tbcx and then you wznt on to 

talk about the Nancy Hanrcich stmy. 

A Yes. 

Q Are those two different incidmts hc told you 

about? 

A Yes. sir. I believe they’re two different separate 

incidents. 

Q Could you explain those two incidents? 

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can -- the one with Nancy Hemreich was basically where 

Gary’s outside, the way he explained it, and Nancy wanted 

know who let Monica inside the oval. And it was a simple 

thing, Gary said. 

Page 71 

Gary said it was a simple thing, when the 

Resident’s doors opened up and the Resident saw Monica in 

the hallway and motioned for her to come in. And then oaa 

Nancy found out the F’xcsidcnt motion4 her in, that was the 

end of the story. 

Now, the szumd situation_ and I still today coming 

downheretothegrandjury,I~wIheardtbestwy.I’m 

not lOOpercentsureifIhearditfromGary,ofasituation 

wheresomebodydidn’tknowthePresidentwasbackintbe 

study with Monica. I never heard anything of a compromisiq 

position, but did not know they were both back tbcze. Tbq 

simply WaIked in. 

Once the off&r realized that the President was 

back in the study, he tbcn exited the.oval. And that’s 

not -- I’m not 100 percent sure if it’s factual, but I know 

I’ve heard that story before and I’m not evcIl100 parent if 

itwasGaryBymes,butthatisoneofthestoriesthatis 

down at the White House. 

A JUROR: Excuse me. When tbe President motioned 

for Monica to come on in, it’s_ it customary to log in the 

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person before they go in? 

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THEWITNFSS: Mostofthetime,tbeIogbookwe 

have, if I could show you that log book, it’s simple - most 

oftbetimeit’snotgucsts. Liiifyouwcrcabeadof 

state visiting, you would not put that log book down because 

it’s actually an official visit. That log book was more of a 

security log book. 

Itwouldbeif-everyonceinawbilewebaveTSD 

that-in. TheydochezksoftbeOvaIOffiafor 

seculity reasons. Orifsomebodywascominginatnightto 

putanewcoatofwaxdown. Andbeforeweletthemin,we 

let them in, we have to find out who’s going in, write their 

namesdownandthenwhoactualIyisesco>km. 

But if it’s a simple thing as Monica going in, the 

samethingwithmc,andIguessthecmlythingSaudywas 

telling mc probably to cover myself I probably shouId have 

documented down Monica but me not working that post that 

often - 

A JUROR: lhankyou. 

THE WITNESS: You’re WclcQme. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q But as I understand it, that would typically be 

entered in the log WkKn the President wasn’t tkre and you% 

got a service type person. 

A Exactly. 

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1 Q Okay. And this situation you’ve told us about. of 1 A JUROR: And then tbc Rcsi&nt - 

2 co- Sk’s cnming in to see tk President conrct? 2 THE WITNESS: And the way I cleared my conscknce 

3 A I nran, that’s what I’m trying to explain. It’s 3 that day, I tbougbt it was extrcmety unusual and the only way 

4 kid of unusual, csp&aUy on a watkcnd. There wouldn’t k a 4 I &evcd my conscknct. and I’U k honest with you, I’ve 

5 sax&uy that. Most of tk visits, tky would come in, 5 tbougbt about it, and I actually discusxd it with my fatbx 

6 tbcywouldsit&wointbclobby,andtbenNancyorBcny 6 strictlyasanattorney,a~lpa-son.sbmtlyafterthis 

7 wouldgoduwn,grrddxzn,tkntbeywouldhthcRcsidcnt 7 istbatIf~th:Rcsidcntdidn’taanthainthx.shc 

8 knowwbo’sbcrtandtkncornerhrougbandintmducctbmto 8 would have simply came right back RD and that’s bow I was 

9 tkRsidcnt 9 saying - okay, + sk probably bad sonx kgaI documcau 

0 MR. WI!%NBERG: Sony. 10 an&youknow,Iwaitalandtbatwasit 

1 MS. W-IRTH: That’s okay. No problem. 11 A JUROR: Did anyone eva ti you that Harold 

2 A JUROR: Excuse me. That Easter Suaday? 12 Ickcsbadsaidanythingtoanyoncdrcaboutwhatksswwhen 

3 THE wlTNE!%: Yes, sir? 13 kwcntinthue? 

4 A JUROR: You apparmdy wur concaned because you 14 THE LVKNIZSS: No, sir. 

5 went to speak to two otkr offifcrs about wkt you bad dm. 15 A JUROR: Thank you. 

6 AndinactllalitywhatyouhaddoawasIctMonicainaodohe 16 A JUROR: I had a question. 

7 was in for 20 M 30 minutes and Harold Ickes went in 17 THE WTl-NESS: Yes. 

8 af&wards. HFiievcr spoke to you aftcx k came auf of ’ 18 A JUROR: When you said that Sandy Vuna said that 

9 that? He IYYCI mentioned what k saw? 19 you probably should not have kt Mooica in. fast of all. did 

‘0 THE WITNECX: You brought up a good point tberr. 20 you question kr as to why sk said that? 

:I sir. Tk 20 or 25 minutes is wkn the fast phone call came 21 THE WITNBS: No, I didn’t. And I’m not ewn SW 

2 lhmugll. 22 today,tokbonestwithyou, 1OOpucmtsure,butItbink 

.3 AJUROR: Excuseme. Yes. 23 tk way Sandy was talking to mc, simply kcausc an intern 

4 THE wlTNE!%: Yes. 24 goingtosecth:RcsidcntinthcOvalOfficcisvayunusual 

.s , AJUROR: Andtkpbonecall. 25 andsomaykifIsaidthattoSandyDday,mll,sbcwas 

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1 THE WITNESS: Right. Aod Ircallycan’t 1 berethi.smoming,Ineveraskedorreallydkcuss4tbis 

2 guesstimate wkm Harold Ickes came in, but when Harold Ickes 2 with Sandy, it was more of a hush-hush, just forget about it. 

3 came in. I’m being totally perfectly boncst with you, I know 3 I’mpreny~shedidsayitwaswrong,buttheonlyreason 

4 k mt and tlrn Monica went down. 4 sbewassayingdocumentitistocovermyselfdowntheroad. 

5 Now, from that timeframe, I’m almost 100 percent 5 A JUROR: But she didn’t say why you should not 

6 sure1 mnanbcr saing Harold Ickcs come out a short time 6 have let Monica in? 

7 after that. I can’t give you exactly what time. 7 THE WITNESS: No. Well, I think why she’s 

8 A JUROR: But k never said anything to you? 8 saying--Imean,I’mthinking~yshesaidthatisbecause 

9 THE WlTNESS: He ncvcr said anything to mc. but I 9 she wasn’t cm the access list. There’s only a few people 

0 know k was drcssai vay casually because it was a Sunday, k 10 down there that have the -- what’s tbe term I would use -- to 

1 w&n? in business at&. II goinandouttoseethePnzsident. 

2 A JUROR: So otbcr than tk fact that you k 12 A JUROR: Free rein? 

3 Monica in at an unusual time. was there anything else about 13 THE WITNESS: Right. Exactly. 

4 the incident that botbacd you, tk fact that k didn’t 14 A JUROR: You said that you were asking Monica 

5 answer the pbont? IS aboutdidsbewanttoentertheOvalOffice. 

6 THE-s: Botbardmc? Asin- 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 

7 A JUROR: Botkred you to tk. cxtart that you wont 17 A JUROR: m-m 

8 tota~tootbcrpcopktosccifyoudidthcrightthing. 

9 THEWITNESS: Ycs,Igucssitbotbacdmcjust ISI 19 

0 because I’ve been on tbc job 11 years, I’ve always tried A JUROR: VA.,.. 

1 doing my job as a professional and I don’t know if I did tk :;w-, 

2 rightthingthatday.ductotbtfact-Ikncwskwasan 22 THE WITNESS: _ 

3 intan and sk’s &owing up kre. And really tk onIy v 23 M -- 

4 IIcthcrin,sir,isbsauscsktoldmcthtRcsidcntsaid 24 AmOR: - 

5 knadstbscdocumnt.5. 

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Page 77 

I2 THE WITNESS: L-_,. 

5 A JUROR: Let me ask you something. Were there 

6 other people on duty that day? 

7 THE WITNESS: On duty? 

8 A JUROR: Easter Sunday. 

9 THE WITNESS: Oh, there was quite -- you mean in 

0 theimmediatearea? 

1 A JUROR: Yes. 

2 THEWITNESS: l%erewasme,therewasanagent’ 

3 rightthereatthatdoor. 

4 A JUROR: Right. Anybody else in the immediate 

5 vicinity? 

6 THE WITNESS: No. It’s normally just a two-man 

7 post. 

8 A JUROR: Anybody in the study area? 

9 THE WITNESS: No. You’re talking about when she 

10 went in? 

!I A JUROR: No, just anybody else on duty that day. 

12 How about the stewards? Were they on duty? 

13 THE WITNESS: No. 

14 A JUROR: l&y were not on duty? 

15 THE WITNESS: Most of the time on the weekend, sir, 

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it’s - the only peopk we really see - Saturdays it’s a 

link busier. you have pcopk coming in. Most of the time 

on a Sunday. espazially on a holiday. the West Wing. all you 

have is a few tours coming down with passholders. Very 

seldom. 

I’ve never rcal.ly - plus. I didn’t work that post 

that often, but it was unusual to have like a steward in 

tbuc because no one’s normally there. 

A JUROR: Can you recall again for mc tbc comment 

Special Agtmt Wilson made aftex he realized or after be 

told the Rsidenr that tbtx was an impohant phone call for 

him? 

THE WITNESS: I’m sorry. could you repeat that 

question? 

A JUROR: You said that Special Agent Wilson made a 

cOmmcIlt after tk got the 8ttahon of the Presider& that 

tbax was an important call for him. 

THE WlTNESS: To clarify. thczc’s two different 

stories there. Wlrn we went in. that was a diffcrcot special 

a@= 

A JUROR: Oh. Okay. 

THE WTIXESS: That was a newer agent who was kind 

of looking to me for guidance on that post. And that’s wh 

I told him to knock fust. don’t open the door. knock fust. 

We knocked twice took one or two steps in. That’s wben be 

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called out for the President. After the second calling out, 

he did acknowledge and we both walked back out. 

A JUROR: Okay. 

THEWITNESS: ItwasthenatthattimewbenanotlKl 

agent came on is when me and Mike were just talking. And 

that’s when he made that comment. Imadethequestion,he 

made the umlment. 

A JUROR: What do you think he meant by that 

comment? 

THE WITNESS: 1 guess being totally honest & 

whichwe’reallsupposedtobehere,IguessIhadaskedthe 

question almost - with the body language :- well, not body 

language, with a connotation almost with like - what do you 

think’s going on inside right now? And I’m saying going on 

inside, the President with Monica. 

And his reply back would be simply no, that ht’s 

saying he wouldn’t be that stupid, he, being the PrtsidenS 

wouldn’t be that stupid to have something going on in the 

Oval Off& with a young lady named Monica tiwinsky. 

A JUROR: Thank you. 

THE WITNESS: Is that - 

ANROR: That answers my question. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Did you tell Lou Fox about this? 

A No, sir. _. 

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Q You mentioned it was hush-hush and you mentioned it 

in the context of a longer answer and that you basically 

reported to the normal post off&rs but o&nvise it was 

hush-hush. Did anybody ever tell you in any way to keep 

quiet about this? 

A Officially, like -- 

Q Off%%lly or unofficially. 

A No. Youknow,withthis-tbzearesometimes 

rumorsgetstartcddownattheWhiteHouseandnxnorsare 

simply rumors. 

I know sometimes just before I got called down to 

OIC several months ago I had one of the new offifzcrs come u1 

to me with some outlandish rumor involving me waIking with 

the President and seeing the prtsickznt and Monica in some 

very awkward position and I would often - not often, but I 

would stop that officer right there and telI him, first of 

alI, watch what you’re saying, we’re dealing with the 

President of the United States and I would cl+ exactly 

how I was involved because quite often you hear so many 

different stories and that’s the only tim I would wt an 

Off&XX. 

What I saw that day, I tbld a couple of senior post 

officers, just for almost umfumation, did I do okay, did I 

do something wrong, with Sandy and Gary. But it wasn’t like I 

1wentfromposttopost. 

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1 It’s kind of like - when I say hush-hush, it I A I don’t think I’ve used tk word skeptical. but you 

2 wa5t’t need to know. Iiot everybody, not every officer, I 2 could use that word. I basically questioned kr actions of 

3 don’t think I’ve even told a special agent about this story 3 her wanting to get inside the oval. Am you talking about 

4 tothisday. 4 tk day, Eastu Sunday, with tk folder in kz hand? 

5 BY MR. PAGE: 5 Q-t. 

6 Q OfficerM&ctt,yousaidthattheWhitcHouse 6 A Right. Andsksaidskwantaltogoandstetk 

7 operator rang in to the OvaI office, correct? 7 Presidmt. I asked hu tk same question, basically rcstatal 

8 A ActuaUy, my fxtxmmieation with the operator was 8 it,‘YouwanttogosatkPmsidcnt?” Andsksaidysand 

9 the outside phone. Ou&ide that door that I called 1 l:OO, 9 that’s~yIaskedbaagaiaalmostliLc_andthentbst’s 

0 tkre’saphcmedesktbat,sir. 10 wbcn sk came back. k just - you know, k’s calkl, k 

1 Q And apparently it rang there after the White House 11 needstkae.papers. 

2operator- ~ringingintothePresida& 12 Q AndthisisstiUEastcr? 

3eotnxt? 13 A Easta Sunday. sir. 

4 A Yes, sir. That’s my assumption. 14 Q Andyouthinkit’s -1bclimyourwordswuea 

5 Q DoyouknowwherethephcmeisintheOvalOfftce 15 few momalts ago, unusual for this to happen. 

6 whmtheWhiteHouseoperatorringsintotheFresident? 16 A Inmyexpaicncc on Easta Sunday - yes. 

7 A ?here’S a secure line tight on his desk. 17 Q That’s what I kard you say a couple of minutes 

B Q Doesthephoneorarethereanyotherphonesthat 18 ago. 

9 ringwhentheWhiteHouseopet=atortingsintotheOvaI 19 A Okay. And I’m ttying to do my best but, sir, but 

3 Offrice that you’re aware of? 20 also if it comes down to yes, what do you mean it’s unusual 

I A Lie I stated befare, I’m not 100 percent sure. 21 for an intern to go into tk Oval OfIicc. it bappcns cvcry 

2 Q But you know of your own personal knowledge that 22 day, and someonc comes down with a million incidents with an 

3 cmeritlgsrightotlthePrcsident’sde& 23 intun going to tk Oval Office Monday thmugh Friday, I’m 

0 A Okay. Let me amtxt myself on that. I’m not 24 goingtobokliLeanidioSbutwhatI’mtryingto~,I 

5 100percentsutethatwhmtheoperatoristryingtogeta 25 found it unusual, ttnt~~I Easter Sunday, tk Rmi&nt comes 

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I kMoftbeResidcnSI’mrrot100paccntsurcthatphoac 1 ovaandMonicaLewinskyiscomingovaandIkncwbuasan 

Z rings. It’s my tmdcrstanding his phone would ring if tk 2 intaninthcEastWing.forhatogointos&the 

3 opuator is calling, but I’m not 100 pacent sure that’s tk 3 President unannounced basically. Not_ as I dam_ on 

I wayitrings. Imean- 4 official businss. 

5 Q SoU5:hvetotalktothcopaatororsommncolbcr 5 Does that kind of clarify - because I’m sum 

5 thanyoursclftoget1OOpercentcutainty. 6 interns do go in bringing documents to the Resident during 

I A Yes, sir. 7 business hours. 

3 Q Did you kar tbc pknc ring? 8 Q WC& what I want to ask you is in view of tk 

3 A No, sir. 9 series of events that you saw that day, Lrwittsky comes with a 

1 Q Tktattemoon - we’re still talking about 10 file,manilla.wantstos&tbePrtsidenfkwavcsbain, 

I April 7.1996. 11 cotluzt? 

1 A Yes. sir. 12 A No, wait a minute. I think we’re. getting sotnc 

3 Q Correct? 13 stories hind of - I nxzm, tkre’s a lot of - what I’m 

I A Yes. sir. 14 telling you berr then’s a lot of information and k’s 

1 Q You did not hear tk phone ring insidc the Oval 15 clarify it so that it COMS out correct. Now, this Earth 

j Officctbatday. 16 Sunday? 

1 A No. Tk only pbooc I kard was tk outside pbonc 17 Q Yes? 

8 tbucandtkSpccialAgcnt~it. 18 A Monica Lewinsky approacks tk door. 1 ask kr, 

P Q Now, you said a fm things that I want to mention 19 I’m skeptical sk repks yes. I summoned tk agent, k 

1 toyoux,tbatIcaoaskywaqucstion.allright? Sobcar 20 looks, we let kr in. Sk goes in straight akad. lk 

I withm. 21 Resident didn’t motion her in that day. That’s a 

P 

. A No problem sir. 22 Gary Bymes situation. Sk gaff right in. He’s on tk 

I Q And pkase listat. Tk fmt thing you said was 23 phone eyeglasses on the bridge of his nose, we Iook, we 

I that wka~ Monica Minsky approackd the Oval Office and you 24 close tk door. 

5 mrc rhcrc, you vmc skeptic& correct? 25 Q That’s the. sanm day Mr. Ickes comes. 

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1 A Yes. That’s when -- the docsr ckms, the phone 1 question oncc again. 

2 call comes in, door opens, no President, door closes, Harold 2 Q Look. I’m just asking. in v& of what you saw 

3 Ickes, find out he’s Harold Ickes, he’s okay, the agent says 3 that day and you’ve said throughout tk order of your 

4 okay, unlock the door, and Monica exits. 4 testimony. Lminsky approacbcs you’= a little &q&al. 

5 Q The same day the special agent says he wouldn’t be 5 things don’t look right sk’s 8c~in8 in tlnr, it’s a Sunday, 

6 that stupid the same day what’s going on in there. 6 April 7,1996, tk phone calL Mr. R&da& Mr. P&da% 

7 A Yes. 7 k wouldn’t k that stupid what’s goin on in that, tbc 

8 Q ‘Ike same day the door closes, Monica briskly walks 8 door shuts right after Ickes apparmtly catd tk Oval 

9 down the hall. Correct? 9 office and Monica briskly waIks down tbc hallway. And 

1 0 A Yes. 0 it’s important to note dccs not cane out tk same door sk 

1 1 Q And my question is after you see all of this, what 1 altaui. 

1 2 are you thinking as you see Monica go down the hallway 2 Iavinvofa1lthat.~twasgoingoninyourmind 

1 3 walkingbriskly? 3 what L&n&y kft the Oval Office m briskly walkal down 

1 4 A I’d kind of like to keep my private thoughts to 4 tk hallway? 

I 5 myself on this situation. 5 A Toansuutbcqucstion,asanavaagc 

1 6 Q I’m sony? 6 intelli8ent - wbat I’m trying to do b is answu this and 

1 7 A I’d like to keep my private thoughts to myself. 7 also let it k stated I do respect tk prsidcncy of the 

I 8 Q Well, I’ll pass that question right now, but it may 8 Unital Stats and to answer it, that day, I took it as that 

1 9 be valuable in this grand jury - 9 Harold Ickes had interrupted the Presi&t and Monica 

1 !O A Could I just step outside and talk to my attorney 0 Lewinsky. 

2 !l at this time? 1 Q Intumptal what? 

1 !2 MR. PAGE: Sure. 2 A That’s my answa. My tboq$ts mrc that k had 

i !3 (The witness was excused to confer with counsel.) 3 intmuptal tkm and ~cally who knows? That Harold WCS had 

i !4 MR. WISENBERG: Let the record reflect the witness 4 inmpted tk Rsidcnt and Monica L.cwinsky back in tbc 

: !5 has reentered the grand jury room. 5 study axa. 

Page 86 Page 842 

1 Madam Foreperson, we have a quorum? 1 Q WbmIckescomesbackoutandv&ksbyyou,doyou 

2 THE FOREPERSON: Yes, we do. 2 makeeyeamtactwithMr.IcLes? 

3 MR. WlSENBERG: And there are no unauthorized 3 A You know, sir, to this day I cannot honestly 

4 persons? 4 rememberexactly. DidIseehimcomeout-Imean,allI 

5 THE FOREPERSON: There are none. 5 remember clearly as a bell is Harold Ickes walking in, clear 

6 Mr. Muskett, you are still under oath. 6 as a bell, Monica Lewinsky going down the hallway. 

7 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 7 Q Within a few short moments after Ickes entering. 

8 BY MR. PAGE: 8 A Yes, sir. fight. 

9 Q All right. Officer Musket-t, when we left, you had 9 Q DoesIckesmakeeyeumtactwiththePPDperson? 

I IO asked to step outside to speak with your attorney, who is 0 A WbatI’mtryingtosayisIc8nnotnxmxnher 

I i 1’ your father, correct? 1 exactly. Did I ever see Harold Ickes that aftunoon - it 

I I2 A Yes, sir. My attorney. 2 did not - Harold I&es leaving was not into my memory. 

1 !3 Q About the question that we had asked you regarding 3 Q Well, you’re certain be ez~tezd, correct? 

I 14 what you thought in view of these facts that I bad listed for 4 A Ye&sir. 

I IS you, a couple of which may have not even been in the list. 5 Q HewascasuaUydresxd,corrcct? 

I i6 You stepped out and now you’re back, correct? 6 A Ye&sir. 

I 17 A come& sir. 7 Q But you’re not certain that you saw him leave. 

I I8 Q And what did you decide? 8 A. Not 100 percent today. 

I 19 A If you’re going to ask me, just please ask it once 9 Q But you know he didn’t stay in them. 

2 0 A Ofcmrsehedidn’tstayintbeae. Hehadtoleave 

; I sometime. ButwhattimeklcffdidI remembCr&nghim 

2 2 leave,whatdidhclooklikc,Icannottodaytellyou Did1 

2 

I 1 

I ‘ 

!O again. I thought maybe you might have skipped over that one 

!I and gone on. 

!2 Q No,Idon’tskipover- 

!3 A My father told me try that one. 

!4 oaughm.1 

!5 But cm a serious note, if you could ask the 

3 make eye contact with Harold I&es, did he make cyc 

4 contact - 1,cannot remember 100 percent today. 

5 MR. PAGE: Right. Baztuse we’n in this area of 

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1 this subject matta. can you 8~ up for a moment and 1 Q All right. Now, let’s stop there for a monxnt. 

2 demonstrate for all of us bow briskly Monica Lcwinsky walked 2 About ten minutes ago you said that you gestured as she shoe 

3 downtkballway? Sbowus. 3 the door knob, correct? Trying to get in? In front of you 

4 Don’t be anbarlassed - 4 and Hightower? 

5 THE -SS: I am anbarrassai. 5 A She grabbed the door and tried to get in. She 

6 MR. PAGE: It’s an important issue for tbe grand 6 tried turning it to get entry. Yes, sir. 

7 jury. 7 Q Andyouean’tdothat,correct? 

8 THE WITNESS: No, I’m Mt being light. I fed 8 A Yes, sir. 

9 like-Idon’tknowifIcanmndanonstratciSbowfast 9 Q And you gestured when you testifii about ten 

0 sbewas-tobeboLVstwitbyou,sir. 10 minutes a80 or so that she physically 8rabbed the door knob 

1 MR. PAGE: Give us your vaxion of briskly. 11 andtriedtohvistitandIbelieveIsawyoush&ingita 

2 THE WITNESS: Okay. Hae’s my vasion of Monica 12 little bit, ttying to pub the door open. Is that accurate? 

3 Lewinsky walking down the balhvay. 13 A Letmeuxrect_ Shegrabbedthedoorknob,madea 

4 (Ixewitness walkal across tberoom.) 14 gesture like to go in, was unable. 

5 A JUROR: That’s briskly. IS Q Afterthat,then,tbeagentopensthcdoor. 

6 A JUROR: That’s brisk. 16 A Correct. 

7 A JUROR: Thank you. 17 Q You look in, correct? 

8 BY MR. PAGE: 18 A Yes. 

9 Q Docsshehavebersbasonattbctime? 19 Q The agent looks in, correct? 

10 A I cannot mea& sir. 20 A I’m not 100 percent sure if the agent looked in. I 

!I Q I want to go back now and talk with you about this 21 know I looked in. 

I2 part of your testimony where Monica Lewinsky first approached 22 Q When you look in, Officer Muskett, what do you see? 

!3 you Easta Sunday, 417/96. all right? 23 A 1seethePnzsidentofthe&&edStatessittingat 

!4 A Yes, sir. 24 the Oval Office desk, he’s on the telephone. His eye@asses 

15 Q whcnsbe.docsthat,sbe’sgotthemaniUafilcin .. 25 are on the bridge of his nose and be’s dressed casually. 

c.. 

Page 90 Page 92 

1 hand, correct? 1 Q All right. Now, does he have reading glasses on 0. 

2 A Yes, sir. 2 does he have full frame glasses on? 

3 Q Do you poke in that file to verify whether she’s 3 A IfIcanrecaU,theywere-I’mnot 100 

4 speaking accurately and truthfully? 4 percent - the definition of those - very similar to what 

5 A To be honest with you, sir, it could have bum 5 you have right there. Reading glasses? 

6 completely empty. I never looked inside the envelope - the 6 AmOR: Yes. 

7 folder. Not the envelope, it was a folder. 7 THE WITNESS: Reading glasses. Similar to the 

8 Q When you knocked at the door, correct? 8 juror’s. 

9 A The special agent knocked. . . 9 MR. PAGE: All right_ At this time, let the record 

0 Q The special agent knocks. Mr. Hightower, correct? 10 reflect you’re looking at an anonymous grand juror who 

1 A I believe. I believe it was Special Agent I 1 happens to have on apparently reading glasses. 

2 Hightower. 12 THEWrlxEss: Right. Yes. 

3 Q This is ta let Monica Lcwinsky in first? 13 BY MR. PAGE: 

4 A No, sir. 14 Q sotheywe~~halfframes,cnnect? 

5 Q I’m sorry? 15 A Half frames. To the best of my nxobxtion. 

6 A All I’m doing is correcting you. 16 Q And how near are you to the President at the time? 

7 Q Correct me. 17 A At the door that I stated, which is 11:00, looking 

8 A Monica Lewinsky approaches, she states she needs to 18 right in at the President. 

9 get inside the Oval Office. I ask her, being skeptical, 19 Q How near to him are you? 

0 “Do you want go in and see the President? 20 A Approximately - probably right here, the start of 

.l She said, “Yes. He needs these papers. He called 21 this, to those doors marked exit. 

:2 and he needs these papers immediately.” 22 Q And what would your estimate there be? 

!j Wethen:-Ilookattbeagent,Iguessletherin, 23 A I have no idea. 

!4 we let her go to the door. She was unable to gain access on 24 A JUROR: Walk it off. 

!5 her own. 25 MR. PAGE: All right. We’ll let the record reflect 

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that Officer Muskett is pacing off the distance. 

THE WITNESS: I’m guessing maybe 30 feet. 

BY MR. PAGE: 

Page 95 

1 MR. WISENBERG: Let tk xcord tr.flcct that tk 

2 witness has tuntaul tk grand jury room. 

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Q Well, you’ve paced it off, so a little bit better 

than a guess, right? 

A Yes. I paced it off but I did not go feet to feet. 

I did --just kind of giving you a ballpark figure. 

Q Are you able to see the President’s face when you 

look in and he’s got these half glasses down at the end of 

his nose? 

A Yes, 1 can see his face. 

Q Was he making eye contact with you at thetime? 

A I don’t know if he sees me. I know Monica’s in 

front of me, basically, and I see him looking at Monica walk 

in. 

Q Is he smiIing? Is be frowning? 

A I saw no facial expression. 

Q Doeshegestunzwithhishand? 

A No. He’son thephonewithonehzmd. It looks 

like--ifIcanremll,hehadpapasinhisotherhand. 

MR. PAGE: All right. I want to ask you some 

questions about your conversation, switching to another day, 

Officer Muskett. 

MS. WIRTH: Can I just interrupt? I just have one 

fast question. 

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MR. PAGE: Certainly. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q Did you notia wktkr tbc Prcsidat made eye 

contact with Monica at that point when she walked in the 

room? 

A I’massumingkdid,duetotkfact-tkse 

diagrams really aren’t all that good for you to understand. 

You guys should go down and take a look at tk West Wing, it 

really would klp you get a be&r perspective of this whole 

scenario. But w&n that door’s opcoed up, it basically 

almost looks right at the door, and I was behind Monica, so 

I’m assuming lx’s looking at ttx door, sees the door open up, 

hcsasMonicawalkalltbcwaytotbcfront0fthatdcsk. 

and I assume k’s looking right at Monica. 

Q Soyouhavetkdooropen? 

A The door opened all tk way. 

MR. WISENBERG: It’s break time. 

MS. WIRTH: Okay. 

THE FOREPERSON: Tk grand jury n&s to take a 

break. 

MS.WLRTH: sure. 

THE FOREPERSON: We’tc going to take a IO-minute 

break right now. 

MR. WISEN’BERG: Wc’lI come get you. 

(Witness excused. Witness rsakd.) 

3 Madam Foreperson. is there a quorum? 

4 THE FOREPERSON: Yes, the is. 

5 MR. WISENBERG: Ate Unz any unauthorized persons? 

6 THE FOREPERSON: Tkxe ax. noac. 

7 Mr. Muskett. you are still under oath 

8 l-HEWnNJCSS: Yes,Iam. Thankyou. 

9 BY MS. WIRTH: 

0 Q IbadintantptcdEdPageforamommtwitha 

1 coupk of questions and I think when I left off I was asking 

2 you about tk time wktt you let Monica inta tk Oval Office 

3 and tk door was opar and you could see tk Prcsidcnt with 

4 his glasses on tk bridge of his nose. 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q HowfarintotbcOvalOfficcdidyoutaMonicagu 

7 kfote you cl& tk door? 

8 A Sk walkaI alI tk way in, probably within a foot 

9 totwofcdfromtkfrontoftkOvalOffidesk. 

0 Q Okay. Andduringtbatwbokpaiodoftime,did 

1 tk Presicknt indicatt to you in any way that sk was not 

2 u&ome? 

3 A No. He still was on tk phone wkn we closaI tk 

4 door. 

5 Q Okay. Andbowmuchofadistanccwastbatfrom 

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wllcn you WuB staading? 

A Approximatdy from tbc edge of tk jurors’ tabk. to 

the door. 

And you estimati that to be about bow far? 

IthinkIsaid3Ofczt. 

okay. 

Approximakly. 

Ms. WlRTH: Approximately. All wt. Fm. 

MR. PAGE: Thank you. 

BY MR. PAGE: 

Offiar Musti you ostifii carI& about 

speaking with Monica Lewinsky whae sk bad in&aped that 

sknadedtotalkwithyou? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q Do you recall that testimony? 

A Ycs,sir. ItwasontkstareflooroftkWbitc 

House during a social cvcnt. 

Q And you said that sk told you in a twcrpuson 

conversation, you and Sk tbat somame’ sl==sp=d+ 

rumors about her and tbc Rsidcnt, concct? 

A Yes. sir. 

Q IbckveA WcU,actually,youknowwhat,thcwayyou-I 

main,asthisgocsabng+somctimcsitclarifiirmxc. 

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1 rumorsakQutber. 1 a going away party or somfzone’s being transferred 10 the 

2 I’m not even 100 peroznt sure if she said her and 2 Pentagon and it was kind of an abrupt end of Monica’s stint 

3 the President, but she said somebody’s been spreading rumors 3 at the White House. 

4 and I think it was about her and the President. What I’m 4 Q So no party for Monica Lewinsky when she left. 

5 tryingtogiveyouis 100percentaccumtetestimonyhereas 5 A No, sir. Not that I’m aware of. 

6 Icantoday. 6 Q No send off. And would you have heard about it? 

7 Q Good. That’swhatwewant. Wbmyouheardthat, 7 A With an intern, sometimes not, but sometimes we do 

8 Ibeiimyousaidsomethiogtotheeffcctthat”Monica,tbc 8 know, people come our_ this is my last day, the east 

9 lasttimeIsawyou,youwentintotheOvalOff~ceandI 9 appointment gate, tht officers there or people in the East 

0 didn’t 9& you again.” Is that accurate? 10 Wing. Because I saw Monica a lot and I did do a lot of 

1 A WeU,letmecorrectwhatItidoriginaUy. _ 11 talkingwithtkEa~Wingstaff. AndmostoftbetimeIdo 

2 It’salmost-IsaidthattoMoni~that-Thelasttime 12 knowaperson’slastday. Itmightnotbeabig,grandscnd 

3 I saw you, I saw you go into the Oval Office and you left 13 off,butweaUsaygocxibye,bestwishes. 

4 andtbat’sthelasttimeIevasawyouagainthatEaster 14 Q I’m trying to unckzstand this conversation, Offcer 

5 Sunday.’ So that part I forgot to add was seeing her exit, 15 Musket& because, you see, apparently you say, and I’m not 

6 because I did see her exit the Oval Off&. 16 doubting you, I’m trying to put this together. 

7 Q What was your purpose in telling her that? What 17 A Okay. 

8 are you trying to communicate to Monica Lewinsky w&n you 18 Q She says someone’s been spreading rumors about her 

9 tell her, ‘Monica, the last time I saw you, you went into the 19 and perhaps the President and you.come back and say, ‘The 

0 Oval Of’fii and I didn’t see you again”? 20 last time I saw you, you wt into the Oval Office and I 

1 A Ithinkthatwas--Iwassayingthatbecau%Iwas 21 didn’t see you again.” Are we missing a part or what are you 

2 surprised llMtdaytumfXlouttobeherlastdaythatshe 22 trying to say? Do you follow me? 

3 worked at the - or - it was so funny, as the story goes, 23 A Not zally, sir. 

4 when I toId the story to another officer, you know, we were 24 MR. WISENBERG: To Monica on that day? 

5 talking, I didn’t know that was her last day and so it was 25 MR. PAGE: Correct. 

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I one of thesz things where I’m starting to question myself. 1 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

2 IsawherwithaWhiteHousepass--1don’tknow 2 Q In other words, why did you say that to Monica? 

3 if you’re familiar with the White House passes, everybody’s 3 What were you trying to kind of convey? 

4 got a little pass with their photo, and on the back side, 4 A Well, I guess I’m going to say the whole way the 

5 blue is for White House, orange color is for the Old 5 conversation went again because I think what you’re do& 

6 Executive - I started questioning myself did she even have a 6 you’re taking key sentences out that I said and maybe - I’m 

7 pass that day or was it an appointment pass. 7 not slighting what you have in front of you. ‘Ihe 

8 Q You’re talking that day - 8 conversation is she wants to talk to me. I said okay. We 

9 A ‘Ihat Easter Sunday. 9 pull off to the side. 

0 Q 4f7/96 Easter Sunday? 10 She goes, “John, I thought you and me were good 

1 A I’m talking about Easter Sunday, the 7th. I’m I 1 friends here at the White House.” 

2 talking about -- I started questioning myself that 4/7/96 12 Isaid,“Yes,weweregoodfriendshereatthe 

3 when I saw her, it started my mind questioning did she 13 White House.” 

4 evenhaveapassorwasherlast&yFridayandwasshe 14 And she goes, “John, someone’s spreading ~nors 

5 cleaningherdeskoutonSunday,soinawayIstarted 15 about me and the President here.” 

6 questioning myself. So when I was saying that to her, it 16 And my reply back was, “Well, Monica, do you think 

7 wasalmosttothepointwhereIwante.dhertolcindof 17 it’sme?” 

B almost tell me, you know, because she kind of - it was an 18 MR. PAGE: You never mentioned that earlier today. 

9 abrupt ending. 19 THE WITNESS: Oh, I thought -- 

D Q That’s what I need to know. 20 JURORS: Hedid Yes, he did. 

1 A Right. 21 MR. PAGE: Sorry. 

2 Q WhatwereyoutryingtogethertoteByou? 22 THE WITNESS: No, that’s why I’m here, to help 

3 A AboutwhathappenedhezstintattheWhiteHouse. 23 everybody out. So then - 

4 I mean, she’s working -- you know, most of the time 24 BY MR. PAGE: 

5 passholders or anybody that works at the White House, there’s 25 Q So you said, “Do you think it’s me?” 

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1 A “Monica, do you think it’s me?” And I said. 

2 “Monica, the. last time I saw you & you uznt into tbc Oval 

3 Off&.” I mean, it’s almost Iikc - it’s such an abrupt 

4 ending, you know, why do you think - something like - I 

5 said - you know, we waz good friends and so I came out with 

6 that that’s the way I al& tbc c0nvc?sation. 

7 I was almost waiting far Monica to teIl me. YOU 

8 knaw,Isceber.shc’skindofupsct Remanbaintbe 

9 beginning I told you she kind of bokcd upsel going in the 

1 0 and tkn I find out it’s her last day. 

1 1 So I was actually - it was kind of a kad-0n 

1 2 question, hoping she was going EO say. “John. let mc tell you 

1 3 what bappcncd ~KXC a1 the whik Housc.” But she didn‘t and 

1 4 hatwasit. AndIsaid,‘WeIl,kwcago0dtimcattk 

1 5 Pentagon.” 

1 6 Q AII right. Thank you for that explanation. You 

1 7 said c-t me if I misbcard this. that shortly after the 

1 8 April 7.1996 event, we’ll call it the event, you discussed 

1 9 it with your father. Is that what )“ou meant - 

2 !O A Theevent 

2 :1 Q Is that what you meant to say? 

2 !2 A Well, you’re xrfening to th: April 7,1996 event 

2 3 as-wcuIglJcssitisthccvalL Yes. Idiscus5.uithc 

2 !4 Monica L.cwiosky Oval Offke bation. the incident, with my 

2 5 father. 

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Q And was that near in time to April 7, 1996? 

A Yes, sir. But that was also as an attorney-client 

conversation. 

Q That’s my next quest&. 

A Yes, sir. 

Q Was this done -- your father is a lawyer. 

A Yes, sir. And it was s!rictIy as an attorney, as a 

client. 

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Q All right. And you wart seeking legal advice? 

A Actually, legal advice at that time from my father. 

Q I’m not asking for any legal advice h!z gave you, 

Officer. I’m not asking for any privileged attorney-client 

communications. 

A Okay. 

Q I’m just asking -- 

A And I do take that back because it was my fault, 

because what I’m doing today, I’m talking too much and my 

advice I should answer your questions to the point and only 

to the point, so that’s been my mistake all day, so I will 

answer your question to the point. Because I was going to 

answer your question as it’s going along with that. 

Q But you see, we told you at the outset you don’t 

have to give us privileged information. 

A I apologize. 

Q And that’s not our intent or purpose. 

i-. Pagem Tuesday, July 21,1998 

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Q Do you understand that? 

A very good, sir. 

Q Whetbcr it’s your dad or not. So he was or you 

were visiting with him about this event, seeking legal 

advice. 

A Yes. 

Q Notasadad. 

A They both coincide together. I don’t separate 

them. 

Q Let’s go back again, move on to a different topic 

and I think that’s all I have. April 7, 1996,’ is there 

anybody else in the White House who from a surveillana 

position or a monitor position can see Monica Lewin&y 

briskly walking down the hallway? 

Now, I don’t mean someone else physically on 

the hallway, but is someone monitoring these events 

that might have 98~1 what you saw? Do you understand my 

question? 

A No, I understandyourquestion. I’llhave totalk 

to the Seeret Servia personnel in the hallway. I’ll bc 

right back. 

(l%c witness was excused to confer with counsel.) 

THE FOREPERSON: Officer Muskea, I would like tc 

remindyouthatyouarestillu$eroath. 

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THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

MR. PAGE: Then? are no unauthorizd people? 

THE FOREPERSON: Oh, there ate no unauthoriazl 

people in the room. We have a quorum. 

MR. PAGE: Thank you. 

BY MR. PAGE: 

Q Did you have a chance to consult? 

A Toanswerthequestion,becauseIwaanot 100 

percentsureaboutthequestionwas,ifIcan-well, 

actually, why don’t you testate the question. 

Q I&s do this. Did you have a chance to consult 

with somebody? 

A Yes,sir. Aboutmyanswerandthey-yes,Idid 

consult. 

Q And with whom did you consult? 

A Matt Dates, United States Secret Service 

counsellor; Tom Do*, united states SaXct Service kgal 

counsel; James William Muskett. 

Q Father and lawyer. 

A Attorney. Father. 

Q Allright. Andyouaskedmetorestatethe 

question. 

A Yes, sir. Just in case - you know, I want to hear 

exactly what your question is. 

Q My question, not exactly the same words, is was 

Divcrsificd Rcuorting Scwiccs. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

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1 thazsomeho&&eintheWhiteHousefromoccupyinga 1 Friday and then today you had fust talked about a study door 

2 sumillance M monitoring position who could have seen what 2 king open and that’s why it’s so important -- 

3 you did that? That is, Monica Lewinsky briskly walking down 3 A I understand, sir. And I’m referring to this door 

4 the hallway on April 7, 1996. 4 light off the oval. 

5 A Not that I’m aware of. 5 Q The 9:00 door. 

6 Q htl=J=anY - and why is that so? 6 A If you want to say -- if you know infotmatiott, 

7 A Tkcvasnobodydseintbcbdhvay. Itwasjust 7 ftrstband information, there’s a corridor behind there or a 

8 mewatchinghagodownthehahway. 8 small hallway, then that’s the door I’m referring to. That’s 

9 Q Andiftkuc’snohodyelscinthehallway,isthue 9 wbatIrefertoast.hestudydoor. 

0 anybody else in a monitoring position or is tlrae no person 10 Q The 9:00 door. 

1 in a monitoring position who would have capttuul kr walking 11 A Right. The 9:00 door. So I would change that. 

2 down the hallway briskly? 12 Q And the dining room in your mind would not be part 

3 A Not that I’m aware of. 13 ofthestudy. 

4 BY MR WISENBERC: 14 A Right. &meet. 

5 Q I waut to show you, Officer Muskctt, I just want to IS Q Okay. AI1 right. I just wanted to get that clear. 

6 clear this up as much as m can. Lct’mc show you JMF-I. You 16 Now, were there to your knowledge before the April 6.1996 

7 had mmtioued hefon that you, yourself, refaxd to the 17 inci&nt, were there any tumors about Monica and the 

8 studyarraas~thanjustwhatwc’vemarkcdasthtstudy 18 President that you were aware of before that incident? 

9 on this map. 19 A Before that incident? 

10 You didn’t uac those exact words, but that the 20 Q Right. 

II study - what you call the study to you is the area beyond 21 A Not that I was aware of, sir. 

:2 tk9:OOdoor. Is thatcomct? 22 Q Okay. And were there any rumors about why she was 

13 A Correct IfIcan nmemher conectly, I referred 23 transferred? 

14 to the configuration I see kac and my best manory going 24 A Yes, sir. 

15 throughtheremayhctwoorthrcctimcs,thatthacwasa 25 Q And can you tell us briefly what those tumors were. 

__ 

Page 106 Page 108 

1 study period and tlxac was a littk dining area period. 1 A Briefly, Monica was seen by somconc, and I helkve. 

2 Q Allrighr That was mynextquestioo. There’s 2 to tk best of my ability today, someone from the White House 

3 also, at least on this map, a little corridor that leads from 3 or fran the Fmt Lady’s staff, walkal in on the Rsidatt 

4 the Oval Offke to the actual one room called tk study on 4 andMonicaintbcfami~theatalocarcdinthtEastWing. 

5 this map. Do you s&that? 5 Q All right. Walked in and tlxm what? 

6 A Yes,Is&thatonthcmap~sir. 6 A I guess in a compromising position. 

7 Q Okay. Thatoverhaetothelcftoftbestudyin 7 Q Okay. That’s tk rumor that was going around? 

8 that little conid4x, you sa: something that on the map is 8 A Yes, sir. 

9 printed Oval Office compkx and then it says dining room. Do 9 Q All right. Now, you had mcntioncd that what you 

0 you s& that? 10 wac walking, you wcrc mrxltioning some examples of having 

I A Yes, sir. 11 ban. I think, recently walking with colkagues and being 

2 Q And so are you telling us that you coosidued that 12 given a version of what you supposedly saw, something you 

3 dining room arca with tk pantry to he part of what you 13 supposedly saw, and I think your words were it was outlandish 

4 refenu_ltoasthcstudy? 14 and you stopped them. Is that correct? 

5 A No. My rkfiiition of the study, I think Mary Anne IS A Yes, sir. 

6 was asking tl~~ questions hcrc. I’m not uactly 100 percent 16 Q Okay. What was that - if you can recall, what was 

7 sure of the layout lmxc. 17 tlx outlandish vaaion? 

8 Q Okay. 18 A You know. I guess mc, John Musket& witnessing tk 

9 A As far as I’m concancd. behind the Oval Office 19 Prcsicknt and Monica giving -- or having otal sex. 

.O wall, thcrc was a study. 20 Q Okay. Was it ever exprcssal to you as you having 

!I Q Okay. 21 witnessed Monica with her head on tbc Rresident’s lap? 

!2 A Idoo’tknowiftlxewasacorridororadoorto 22 A TheonlytimeIeversawthat-wait. Statethat 

!3 tbek~orthcriehandthcnyouwalkintoadiningroom. 23 again? The President - 

14 Q Okay. Sotkdiningroqmissomethmgthat-I’m 24 Q Was it ever exprssed to you, the outlandish 

15 justtryingtogctwhatyoumcaninyourmiodbccauscon 25 vcrsioo apresscd to you as, Musk you, saw Monica with 

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Page 109 1 

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In re: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Pagem Tuesday, July 21,19% 

ber head on the President’s lap? 

A Thcon~timcIcvcrbcardthatsideofthestory 

or that rumor was in tk Independeot CounstL when I came 

down hcrc to have a talk a coupk of weeks ago. 

Q Okay. It was a question from somebody? 

A Itwasaquestionfmmthcpanelwhattherewasan 

FBIagent_MaxyAnnewastheFc.wkzethatsortof 

texminology aad they asked me if I ever saw that situation. 

Q Okay. But the outlandish vasion that you heard 

from a colleague was - 

A Oral sex. More graphically describal today as a 

blow job. 

Q Now,wuethcreruinorsthatyoubeardsometime 

before - some time afta hex nansfa to the Paxagon and 

befort the story broke about Monica in the Washington Post on 

January 21,1998, had you kard rumors about Monica and the 

Pxsident? 

A I’m son-y, run t&e dates and times back. 

Q Sure. She gets transfcmd to the Pentagon very 

shortly after Easter Sunday 1996. 

A Right. 

Q ~sroryonhcr.thcbigmwsstoryonha.b~ 

dn January of this year. My question to you is m those 

twopuiodsbadyoukard -wueUxrerumors.anytime 

before tbc story broke and afta sht went to tk Pentagon, 

Page 110 

did you start to hear rumors about Monica and the President? 

A possible relationship. 

A I guess when I say a possible relationship, the 

family theater story which comes to mind, which kind of 

coincides, you know, with me, the situation I saw then, 

Easter Sunday. 

Q Okay. You mentioned the -- and that presumably 

would have been a rumor that started fairly soon after she 

was transferred? 

A Verysoonafterwards. 

Q Okay. Did you hear anything beyond that? Any 

other rumors beyond that about any particular events? 

A With Monica and tbe President? 

Q Right. 

A No, sir. 

Q Okay. You had mentioned two northwest gate 

incidents and you’ve told us about what you heard about one 

of them. I believe, you correzt me if I’m wrong, the other 

had to do with her being allowed in on a press pass of some 

kind. 

A Yes, sir. 

Q You didn’t witness that but you heard about that, 

correct? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q Can you briefly tell us what you heard about that? 

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Page 111 

A Yes. To the best of my rccolkction, what happened 

on this situation was me and a Sa-gcant Keith Williams wuc 

jokingintbcmominebcforrourrollcallabout-~was 

somahingintbtpapaandtbcyaskcdthisbcforcwithtbc 

intuviewstyle.whatitwasintkpapexIcanaotrecalL 

and wz joked about when this thing really star& unmxling. 

What I mean by unraveling - I’m just eying to 

watchmykcywords~bccauscIdon’twantthcmtocome 

back and strike me in my fact when I say unraveling, if this 

thingrcaUy_iftbcstorywas~withtbcRsidcnfif 

tbcy~comtop~s,you~ow.i~‘sgoiogtobc-mU 

we wuc joking about it ad that’s what the Xaux copy was. 

I don’t know if exzyhdy saw it. It rcfaxd u) Friday, 

August 1.1997. 

WC wue joking abouk you know, how’s Monica being 

CM into tk White House complex. And I do know she was 

there a coupk of times for social events and on this 

situation with th north-t gate is wbea she came in and sbe 

was ckare4l as press. 

Totcalittlemore- when I’m going on tlx& loag 

tangent aoswus. I’m kxting you know to help clarify, most 

times you have an appoinrfmnt to see somebody you’re chled 

as an appointmnt. 

Wtllshcwasckaredonthisdayassp~s 

worker. AndIbaveh4&xrrydowntkrewi~krdateofbii 

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and Social Security number, because that’s what was listed oa 

the scnzn. And Keith Williams called me to let me know thar 

shewasunningin. Ithinkitwas12:16intheaftcmoonm 

that date. 

Q So&was-itjusthappenedtobelikea 

coincidence that later in the day on a moming that you wue 

talking with - is it WiIliams? 

A Yes. Sergeant Keith Wiiams. 

Q About what’s going to happen if’ tksc stories start 

gettingintothenewsanditjustsohappencdthatlatcrthat 

day k called you with this information. 

A Ye&sir. 

Q Okay. Let’s -- you have an exhibit. You said one 

of your exhibits has to do with that, is that correct? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q And telI us what m-2 is. 

A JFM-2 is a two-page calendar book startiag with 

Monday in the top left-hand corner, Monday, July 2&h, gw 

throughAugust3rd,S15day. Andonthedate,itwasa 

Friday, August 1st. That’s when I basically wrote in - I 

have what my ass@ment was that day, then I have 12:16. 

Keith Williams, press, MonicaXewinsky. 

Q All right. What does 12:16 mean? 

A -hetimeshecamein. 

Q Okay. And you just m told this by Keith 

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1 Williams, correct? 

2 A yes. 

3 Q You didn’t witness that, is that correct? 

4 A No, sir. 

5 Q Allright. Wasthestory-wasoneofthestoties 

6 yousawintbepaperorthestoryyousawinthepaperthat 

7 caused you to have the conversation with Keith Williams the 

8 story about Kathleen W&y? 

9 A I’m not really sure, sir. 

0 Q Okay. Because I believe that’s what you told one 

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of our agents in one of your conversations in May of ‘98. 

Actually - 

A IknowtbeyaskedmethatseveraltimesandI 

wasQ Actually, in fact, you can’t be sure. 

A Yes. They asked me a couple of times that question 

andIsaidIwasnot.sure. 

Q And you’re not sure now. 

A Exactly. I have not changed. 

Q Okay. Now, anything else you remanber about this 

incident, either the discussion with him or what happened 

later? 

A Yes. 

Q Tell us about it. 

A ‘IhereasonIputthisinthecalendarbook,thePage 114 

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truth is that I was being real sarcastic. I said “I’m 

documenting this in my calendar book, Keith, so you’re going 

to be involved in this.” 

Okay? And that’s the truth. And he’s out there, 

still upset with me today. So - and that’s why I put a 

little star next to it and everything else and that’s the 

truth. 

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The only thing added that I did not put down here 

is that the story goes that she walked down and before she - 

another thing, I wish you could go down and see this layout, 

when you go in the northwest gate, you walk down a small 

driveway, to the left it goes to the press lobby, that’s 

where the news cameras are, they sit inside there and that’s 

where the press lobby is at, and then you go to the West Wing 

lobby. 

1 Q Okay. AU right. 

2 A Aadactually,ifIcanbemoreexac~Keitb 

3 Williams-whenIputthisdown.Iwcntandpullcduptk 

4 computa to just exactly see bow she was cleared in, it was 

5 press. And that’s wkn I put down dare of bti and tbc 

6 Social Security nmnbu and put McCurry’s name as tbz 

7 requestor hehindit. 

8 MR. WISENBERG: Okay. 

9 Sorry. Did you have some questions? 

0 Ms. WJRTH: Just a few. 

She was stopped by somebody and I believe it was 

somebody from legal counsel, on the President’s legal 

counsel, or stopped and taken to the West Wing. 

Q Do you have any idea who that person was? 

A No, sir. 

Q And what was it that caused - was it unusual for 

hertobeclearedinasapressperson? 

A AsfarasIwasconcemed,yes. 

Q Okay. And do you think that’s why you got the call 

from Keith Williams? 

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A Yes. Sergeant Keith Williams. 

Q Okay. Given the conversation you had had a little 

bit earlier, the fact that it would be unusual for Monica -- 

let me start over and try to be a little more articulate. 

Numberone,bythispointintimethczwere 

rumo~therehadbeenatleastsomentmorsaboutthc 

transfer of Monica Lewinsky. Is that light? 

A Yes. 

Q ‘Ihen you’ve got this unusual circumstance of she’s 

cleared in as a press person. Is that correct? 

A Yes. Itwas-ImeanQ Andthismightseemmtherobvious,butIguess 

those are two of the factors, do you think that maybe given 

your morning conversation with him that Sexgeant Williams 

called you just to let you know this? 

A I’m not sure of your question, sir. 

Q Okay. Well, I don’t blame you. I don’t blame you 

a bit. And I‘ll just abandon it. It’s just along the lines 

of - I know this is not verbatim,. but guess what or you’re 

not going to believe this, something along those lines, he’s 

calling you to inform you that she’s in as a press person? 

I’m trying to get a feel for what it was. 

A I can almost do it verbatim. “Guess what? Monica 

just got cleared in, she’s walking in right now as a press 

5 person.” 

__. 

Page 116 

BY Ms. WlRTl-l: 

Q Just so that I’m clau on som&ing. going back (0 

the Easta Sunday incident. when you had a conversation, I 

think you said. with Michael Wilson whcrt you made a comment 

to him. som&ing tD tbc effect of ‘Whet’s going on in tba+ 

andbcreplieshacktoyou.hcwasnotthepasonwbowartin 

with you to announce the call. 

A No. No. 

Q Bcforcyoumadcthatc ouunalt to Micbacl wilsoo, 

“What’s going on in tkzc,” did you advise him of what had 

hap& that day already with tcspect to Monica going into 

tk Oval Offii? 

E; To k honest totally honest with yau, I can’t 

ncall. I’mprcttysunkhad-Imcan,I’mprettystueIdon’t~owifIsdviscdhimofiSbutkhadtokvcLnowa 

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1 other officers about it and I can’t be 100 percent sure who I 1 

2 told about it and who I didn’t tell about it. There are 2 

3 other pcopk out there. but - 3 

4 Q Do you remember any 0th pcopk you told by name? 4 

5 You have to answer verbally. 5 

6 A I can’t be 100 percent sure. I do know that pcopk 6 

7 knew it. but I don’t know per name. 7 

8 Q Ax you testifying you don’t remember any other 8 

9 person that you told about this besides those three pmpk? 9 

0 A Okay. Look. When Itoldthis storytomy father, D 

1 my mom was in the room. Sbc’s going to kill me now, but sbc 1 

2 was present in the room. And she cv~l told mc “Stop, I 2 

3 don’t want to kar any more.” So that’s why I’m saying I 3 

4 don’t know if she heard the whole stoty because sht didn’t 4 

5 want to kar any more about it. 5 

6 Q Okay. Aside from family members. any - 5 

7 A Sacret Service personnel? No. Nobody strikes out 7 

8 in my mind. 3 

9 Q Okay. And what about White House employees? 9 

0 Anybody that comes to mind? 1 

1 A Staffcrmembcrs? WhiteHousestaff? No. Tobe I 

2 honest witb you tbesc stories I’m telling you today, 1 

3 especially my accounts. there ~lrc Saxet Savice - but I I 

4 never rcmanbcr even telling a special agent that story, I I 

5 nev~ discussed Monica Lcwinsky with any White House staff ; 

Page 11: 

for him to give that response back to me. 

Q Okay. The second question was I now you’ve told us 

that it was approximately 20,25 minutes that Monica was in 

the Oval Office before you and the agent went in to announce 

the phone call. Do you have any feel for the total time she 

was in the Oval Office from the time she went in until the 

time you saw her walking down the hallway? 

A I’m going to put a guesstimate on it between like 

45 minutes to an hour. 

Q Aside from your father, Offtcer Byrne and Offtazr 

Verna, is there anybody else anywhere that you told about 

this incident around the time that it happened, the Easter 

Sunday incident? Anybody else in the White House, anybody 

else in the Secret Service? 

A of this story? 

Q h4.rn-hmm. 

A Yes. I mean, this story did -- I can’t recall who 

knows this story, but there’s several other people that know. 

Q Is there anybody else that you remember telling 

aside from those three people around the time that it 

happened? 

A Tbatsarneday? 

Q Either that day or the following week or two or few 

Weeks. 

A Just other officers know about it. I did talk with 

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Page 119 

Q All right. And I haveone last question. When 

you were inmiewed by an PI31 agent earlier this year, you 

took the protective function privilege with respect to 

conversations that you had with Gary Byrne about Monica 

Lewinsky. Was there any conversation that you had with 

Gary Byrne beyond telling him what happened that Baster 

Sunday? 

A With-? I think it had to do with those 

two -- onewithGarythat--thebestofmy~owledge,I 

rememberGarywasthepersonwhowhenhewasinsidethem 

doing escort didn’t know the president was back in the area 

themandheexited. IthinkthatwasthestoryIwas 

referring to. And the other one where the president motioned 

for Monica to come in and Nancy Hem&h - 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

so these are the stories that you told before. 

Right 

Nothing you haven’t covered? 

Not today that I can remember. 

Nothing you haven’t covered today. 

No. 

MS. WIRTH: Okay. I’m done. 

MR. WISENBERG: Unfortunately, I didn’t hear the 

question and answer,soImightbeaskingthesamethillg. 

THE WIINESS: I’ll l_et you know. 

Page 118 Page 12b 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Therr was another protective function privikge you 

took on a conversation with other White Hour anployecs 

related to a pas&older. Can you ail us briefly what that 

was about? 

A I’m sorry. I wasn’t even thinking - I was actually 

thinking about some&@ diffaent and didn’t pay attention 

to your question. 

Q ThetbappenstomeaUtktime. Tbaewasanotkz 

thing that my records indicate you took a protective fun&m 

priv* on on conversations you had with otba whik House 

employees t&red to a passbolda. Do you tunernbcr what that 

is? Presumably xmn%aiy other than Ms. Lminsky. 

A I.ovolviog the Resident? Can you read the sentence 

bcfcnttbataadthtseatcnccafterthattokindofbtlpmtyou’ve got tllc notes in front of you. 

MS. WlRTH: llxx’s nothing relevant to you? 

THEWITNESS: That’swhy-I’mttyingtothinkI’m trying to tmdcrstand your question. One more time? 

MR. WXENBERG: Let me read a portion of your 302. 

“Muskext has had conversations with Chy Byrne about Lewinsky 

but is claiming protective ftmctioti privilege on tk details 

of the conversations. Muskett is also claiming tk 

protczti~ function privilege on convasations k bad with 

otkz Whik House anployccs related to a passhokkr.” 

Page 117 - Page 120 
II re: Grand Jury Pmeedings Multi-Page= Tuesday, July 21,1991 

Page 121 Page 12: 

1 THE WlTNESS: No. Unkss I’m referring to tk Ann I A JUROR: On Sunday, Saturday or whatever day? 

2 MC&~ story where sk was up at Fort Meyers, tk arrival 2 THE WITNESS: Basically what hap@ that Easrcr 

3 cuunony. That dasn’t maLc satsc ow tkre. 3 Sunday. which kaps going back, that was considacd basically 

4 BY MR. WISENBERG: 4 an OTR what we consida like an off tk KCOKI movanmt. 

5 Q O~Y. lf you tuxmx.tk what that is, could you have . 5 Mostofrbctimcastcwardistbar:MondaythroughFriday 

6 yourfathagctintouchwitbmorMs.Wirth? 6 because it’s apccti that tk President will go ovu there. 

7 A I’mp~surewbatI’vcsaidtodayis 7 A lot of times on a ‘Saturday morning, tkre’s 

8 mryrhing’supinbze. 8 normallysonxbodytkzcincasc.tbcPresidattdccswanta 

9 MS.WIRTH: Thank you. 9 drinkofwataoracttpofcoffcenracupoftca,butifk 

0 MR. WXSENBERG: Questions? 10 doesn’t apoct to bc thaz I don’t think - now. I’m talking 

:r; 

11 myapaicncs 11 ycarsdownthcn,Ithinkalotoftimcsk 

12 show~up,popsovathrrformaybctwoorthrrrhours. 

3(11 13 Tbae wouldn’t k a sIcward on call tkrc. But that’s my 

14 pasoaal apcriarcc. 

:: 

A JUROR: So it’s called an off tbe mxtrd move? 

THE WlTNESS: Offtk ncord movanatt. Exactly. 

17 Yes. 

18 A JUROR: A zal quick question for you. I know 

a ‘1 

ii_ 

- 19 you had a limited relationship with Monica Lewinsky. Can you 

20 give me a brief overview on what you thought about Monica 

I 21 Lewinsky? Was sk professional? 

2,,_ 22 What did you think about Monica L&n&y during tk 

3 23 time, not since this has come out, but during tk time that 

14 24 SkwasinthtWhitcHwstorwhcnskcamtovisittbt 

5 A JUROR: Thank you. 25 WhiteHouse? 

-.. 

Page! 122 Page 124 

I THE WITNESS: You’rcwclcome. 1 THE WlTNESS: Right. Right. I took Monica as a 

2 A JUROR: What do you think of tk newspaper 2 young lady. vay niq always dressed voy professionally. 

3 repow tbat say that Monica Le+vinsky armed the White House 3 Skwaskuormsometims togototkWestWing. WkaIsay 

4 approximately 37 times? 4 known.liLcsomctimesiftbcPrsidcntwaslrnowntokc~ 

5 THE WlTNESS: Honestly? 5 into tk diplomatic reception room, a lot of times sk just 

6 A JUROR: Yes. 6 happaxd to k walking down tk corridor, you know. maybe 

7 THEWlTNESS: Ibckvctkm. 7 justtoscctkPresidcnt. 

8 A JUROR: You bditvc that sk did’? 8 I took lrz as very acited. Sk was a young lady, 

9 THE Wl-INESS: Yes, sir. 9 job at tk White House, which is a pretty mt job, and I 

0 A JUROR: Thank you. 10 knowwhcnshcsaidaboutm&tingthtRtsidcnSskwasvery 

1 THE WITNESS: And that’s wby. to k honest with 11 excited. I just took ha as a young lady, sk was acited 

2 you. that’s why tk press - it was abnost - that morning, 12 workingattkWhitcHousc. Ididtt’tscekrinancgative 

3 likckwisskcomingin? BecauseIknowskwastkrefor 13 way, I didn’t sag ha as - nothing nally stntck me. 

4 scvaal social cvdlts tkt I know I saw her myself. 14 A JUROR: Would you considu ha what oome tam as 

5 So if you really b& up tbosc 37 times. the 15 astalku? 

6 social mmts or like one of tk questions of how sk keeps 16 THE WlTNESS: I ncvc~ saw that. I took her as - 

7 getting ckaxd in. and that’s why that phone call was. well, 17 well, let me Stop this again kre. What’s your definition of. 

B hat Sk’s being cleared in as a press paxon. which might 18 a stalk-? I mean. my true definition of stalka is somebody 

J makeittottgkrtodetccttkanasanappointmatt. Imean- 19 who really stalks and nowadays really baxtncs a 

I AJUROR: Thank you. 20 thKatalillgI THE WlTNESS: You’re wclconx. 21 A JUROR: Tk White House tam, a clutch. 

z A JUROR: Is it tnr that when tk President is in 22 THE WITNESS: Right. I didn’t takc,kr - I took 

5 llisoff-ltkesboukikaltcwardtbcretotakccareof 23 krasmaybccvatapakcr. Sklilrcdtokaroundtk 

I hisnab? 24 Prcsidatt. I mean, sk was acital, you know’? Sk was 

5 THE-: h4ostoftktimc- 25 acital if sk bad to go to tk West Wing. You know, because 

Page 121 - Page 124 

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you’ve got to rralizc how young she was wkn sk was working 

down that. 

You know. if I was 20 years old, going to George 

Mason and. you know, hue I am, walking. delivering papers 

Monday tbrougb Friday in the West Wing and just sa tk 

Rcsidcnt go by. it’s pretty exciting. And that’s tbc way I 

took lxx. 

A JUROR: Thauk you. 

h4R. WISENBERG: Speak now or maybe fm hold 

your peace. Any other questions? 

(No v.) 

MR.WI!XNBERG: AlIright. I’mgoing toask youto 

step outside for just a minute. 

THE WrINESS: Can I have one closing statement? 

MR. WISENBERG: Absolutely. 

THE WlTNESS: I want to say - I’d like to end by 

saying I’m hcrc bazause I was subpoenaed to k bar. If you 

lookatthclsordsandthc&us,tbcscdarsgobackto 

April 1996. If I wanted this to k known two m ago. I 

would ha& bum jumping on tht T.V screen, trying to go to 

People Magaz& or Star @azinc. 

I ‘Ispa% the presidency and I’m Herr because you 

asked me hae. I know you guys have a job to do, ladies and 

gcntlcmcn, and I’m assisting with the investigation. So 

hopefully what I’ve said today stays haz and don’t bring my 

Page 126 

1 name in the paper. okay? 

2 A JUROR: We appreciate your coopaation. 

3 THE FOREPERSON: You have to kavc the exhibits 

4 hcn,though. 

5 THE WlTNESS: Oh. Yes. You’re right. 

6 MR. WISENBERG: I think you did have your owe 

7 copies? 

8 THE WITNESS: Yes. I made a mistake and left my 

9 own copies hat. 

0 MR. WISENBERG: Okay. lust make sux you kavc the 

1 markcd ones with us. the exhibit ones. 

2 Okay. Iftberewerc-Idon’tcventhinkwenad 

3 to ha= you wait outside. 

4 If there are no more questions. may tk wimcss be 

5 ucuscd? 

6 THE FOREPERSON: Yes, k may. 

7 MR. WISENBERG: Thank you vay much. 

8 MS. WIRTH: Thank you. 

9 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 

!O (The witness was cxcuscd.) 

!I w, at 4:33 pm., the taking of testimony 

12 intheprcscnccofafullquorumofthcGmndJmywas 

3 concludai.) 

4 l *+++ 

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JULY 1997 JULY 1997 - AUGUS1‘1997 

MONDAY THURSDAY 

#t!l@wda 

KCHJULY 

. . .mx!~ .a!? .I. JULY 

_, ,_ _, u!iwm 

TUESDAY 

. ..~.................................................~.......... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

WEDNESbAY 

JULY 

.: d!WF$ . . . . . . . . . . . .._ _..,.: _,___ 

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OK-302 (Rev. 8-19-94) 

- 1 - 

OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

Dau of ttanscnption 05/01/98 

FREMON No Middle Name (NMN) MYLES, JR., Officer, United 

States Secret Service (USSS), Uniformed Division (UD), date of 

birth _, was interviewed at the Office of the 

Independent Counsel (OIC), 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, 

Washington, DC, 20004. Present for the interview were Associate 

Independent Counsel (AIC) MICHAEL TRAVERS and AIC MARY ANNE WIRTH 

and Department of Justice (DOJ) attorneys GARY GRINDLER and 

JONATHAN SCHWARTZ. MYLES was interviewed under the terms of an 

agreement reached between the OIC and the DOJ. After being 

apprised of the official identity of the official identities of 

the interviewers and the nature of the interview, MYLES provided 

the following information: 

MYLES has been employed by the USSS since April of 

1990. After working three years on the outside of the White 

House grounds, MYLES was stationed at the m post, which is 

located inside the East Wing. MYLES sketched a diagram of the 

area near - which is attached to this FD-302. In March of 

1997, MYLES was transferred to the USSS office at 13th and L 

Streets, Northwest, Washington, DC. 

MYLES advised the *post was the entrance used for 

tours of the White House. MYLES worked the B and C shifts while 

stationed at the _ post. MYLES advised the Office of 

Legislative Affairs (OLA) was on the other side of double 'doors 

from-. 

MYLES can not say for sure exactly when he first met 

MONICA LEWINSKY, but he saw her often when she worked at the OLA. 

MYLES believes it was when LEWINSKY was new to the East Wing of 

the White House. MYLES advised that Uniformed Division officers 

are told by superiors not to mingle with White House passholders. 

MYLES advised the first time he saw LEWINSKY, he said hello to 

her, but she did not respond. MYLES advised that from that point 

on, he did not engage in conversation with LEWINSKY. 

MYLES can not recall ever being posted in the West Wing 

of the White House. MYLES never saw LEWINSKY in the West Wing. 

MYLES never told anyone he saw LEWINSKY in the West Wing. 

Sometime during LEWINSKY's tenure at the White House, MYLES saw 

her crying. MYLES asked LEWINSKY if she was okay, and LEWINSKY 

Investigation on 05/01/98 at Washington, DC File I 29D-OIC-LR-35063 

Date dictated 05/01/98 
3006 

OIC-3021 (Rev. S-19-94) 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

continultin of OIC-302 of FREMON MYLES, JR. .on 05/01/98 .Page 2 

did _not respond and ran into the restroom. . 

MYLES recalls one instance when LEWINSKY asked him if 

he could let her know when the President moved. MYLES did not 

respond to LEWINSKY. MYLES does not recall when this occurred, 

but believes it was sometime after he first saw her. MYLES has 

not discussed this incident with any other Uniformed Division 

officers. 

MYLES advised he had access to the President's schedule 

on a daily basis. LEWINSKY did not ask MYLES about the 

President's schedule. 

MYLES did not talk to other Uniformed Division 

personnel about LEWINSKY. MYLES does not know anything about 

LEWINSKY and does not want to know. MYLES never spoke to 

Uniformed Division officers about LEWINSKY. 

MYLES thinks LEWINSKY had a blue pass, which would 

allow access throughout the White House grounds. Although MYLES 

saw LEWINSKY go up the stairs which lead to the West Wing of the 

White House, 

West Wing. 

he would not know if LEWINSKY actually went to the 

President. 

MYLES never said LEWINSKY had a '*thing" with the 

After LEWINSKY was transferred from the White House, 

MYLES recalls-seeing her at a White House event with two older 

women. MYLES-can not recall the event and did not recognize 

those who accompanied LEWINSKY. MYLES believes this event was in 

the Winter of 1997, more than one year ago. 

MYLES does not know the White House stewards or the 

food service personnel in the West Wing. MYLES knows some 

cleaning people in the White House, but does not know if they 

clean the West Wing. 

After January of 1998, 

the news, 

when the LEWINSKY story was in 

LEWINSKY. 

MYLES advised that a lot of people were talking about 

Since the story broke, MYLES has seen MATT FRITSCH a 

lot. FRITSCH has tried to engage MYLES in conversation about 

LEWINSKY. MYLES advise that a lot of Uniformed Division officers 

are saying things that are not true about MYLES. 

After an approximately fifteen minute break, in which 

MYLES spoke with GRINDLER and SCHWARTZ alone, MYLES provided the 

? 
3007 

OK-3021 (Rev. S-l‘+-%) 

293-OIC-LR-35063 

ConanuationofOIC-302 of FREMON MYLES, JR. .on 05/01/98 , Pape 3 

following information: 

Uniformed Division officers would say that LEWINSKY 

went to the West Wing a lot. MYLES advised that approximately 

fifty Uniformed Division personnel, on separate occasions, would 

say this. MYLES can not recall any by name, except MATT FRITSCH. 

MYLES advised these discussions about LEWINSKY would take place 

in the locker room, the roll call room and in the gym. 

MYLES did not engage in conversations about LEWINSKY. 

MYLES advised the conversations he heard took place between 1995 

and 1997. MYLES never told anyone about LEWINSKY asking him 

about the President's location. 

MYLES heard that LEWINSKY was in the Oval Office. 

MYLES advised that he inferred that LEWINSKY had a relationship 

with the President. MYLES may have heard that LEWINSKY had a 

relationship with the President. MYLES advised that LEWINSKY was 

a frequent topic of conversation at the White House. 

MYLES has not heard any stories about the White House 

cleaning people cleaning up after the President and LEWINSKY. 

MYLES can not recall a story about LEWINSKY and the President in 

the White House theater. MYLES does not recall any story about 

LEWINSKY at the Northwest gate of the White House. 
, 

r II 
3009 

hgusi 13,1998, 

1001 P.ansylv&* Awnw, Il.*. 

suiu 490 llorth 

Yahimqton, D.C. 20004 

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PROCEEDINGS 

ROBERT MYRICK 

wascalledasawitnessand,afterbavingbemftidUly 

SwombytheForcpemm oftbeGrandJuly,wascxamiaed 

testxlled as follows: 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

EXAMINATION 

BY MR. PAGE: 

Would you tell us your full name, please? 

RobcrtMyrick. 

Doyouworkfoftksecretservicc? 

Yes, sir. 

MyrmneisEdpagC. TomyleftishlaryAmcWi 

webothwofkfortbizOfIiccoftkhkpaxkatt 

we’llbeaskiBgyouyourquestiarstaiay,al~Ishau 

mahmthatsomoftkQ 

A 

Q 

AmoR: couldkspcllhislstnanx? 

MR. PAGE: Yes. 

BY MR PAGE: 

woddyousPc~your~nam,P~7 

Myri& M-y%-++.,. 

‘hhoughIsbouldI;ltntiontbatsameofthcmcmba 

oftbegrandjurymayasktkirownqucsthsaswelL 

Befolewcgetstarted,1wapttovisitwi~youaboutyap 

rigbtsEmdFespoasibities. 

1 

2 

3 

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6 

7 

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9 

IO 

:1 

12 

13 

I4 

IS 

16 

17 

18 

19 

!O 

!l 

!2 

!3 

!4 

I!5 

p-3 

BeforeIdothat#Iwiinttofellyouthatthkisa 

fakaalgrandjutyanditisin~~Mti~ 

Iminsky or otbas suboraed pujq, Mm&ted witIhess& 01 

engaged in obstmction of justice in tk cam of Paula Jones 

v.williamJ&asonclinton. Doyou-that? 

A Ycs,sir. 

Q Now,youhavec&ainrightsinmskingyour 

appeanmcehactodayandoneoftkmistbatyoucanamt 

yourF~Amendmentrightandnotincrhhkyornsclfifa 

mlthful aaswertoanyofthequestiansaskedwouldtuxIto 

in* you Do you Luxkmmd that? 

A Ye&sir. 

Q Doyoualsoundcrstandthattbecourtreporkris 

pxsenttoyourleftandshe’stakiqgdomtbequesthsand 

answers? Inotbuword&cvc@bhgtllat’ssaidkrctoday. 

Do you uI&rsmd? 

A.Yes,Ido. 

Q Youhavearighttostcpoutsideaadcmsultwitha 

lawycralawymthatyoumay~haeandit’smy 

~thatMattDattsoftkuniteds~saxt 

z3emiceoffurofGcaaalCounselisautsidcfortbat 

purpose. Isthatcomct? 

A Yes,& 

Q Doyouunde&mdthatyoucanstepoutsidcard 

consultwithhimduringyourappcaranahar:todayifyou 

1 

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Page 4’ 

want to? 

A Yes,Ido. 

Q ~YM u&rstandthtyouclrcundcroathaow,you 

am? say “I forget” when you don’t, you Carl? say “I don’t 

rcmcmbcfifthat’snotaccuratt,8rKIthatyou’rtobligatcd 

tOtdltktlUth? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, f&y, do you umkstmd that tk 

procahgsheretodaykfanthisfedaalgraadjaryare 

secretundcrlawgndthatonlyyoucantcllothas*yo~ 

appa3ramxkletodaywkttookplace. Doyoullndamd 

tkt? 

A Yes. 

Q Doyouu&&andthattkaeisancxccptionta 

that? Andtbstisthatincatain~,aftar 

corpftkUnitcdStatsdistrktcm&facxmpkad

aatyour~yorwhatkp~krctadayshoolldk 

discloszdiaatria&inaproaxdhga~dhanubter, 

tbatitmightdiscloscdinthatsitu8tiaa? 

. 

A Yes. 

Q ~YOU un&stand? i... . 

A Yes. 

Q DoyoubavcanyqutSionsbef~~getscartcd? 

A No. 

MRL-PAGEE Allright. ‘Ilmakyouvaymud~ 

Pagcl-Page4 
3010 

. Inns: GbadhtryPmacdmgs Mull 

Page! 

1 BY MS. WIRTX: 

2 Q Ofliccr, how long have you been employed by tk 

3 !&Xtscrvice? 

4 A bwillbtthrce~%~~~inOctober. 

5 Q okay. AndhaveyoubcenasigncdtotkWhite 

6 House? 

7 A Ye& ma’am. 

8 Q For how long? ’ . 

9 A Twoycaf&fournemnthr 

1 0 Q cxcay. Haveyoucvusu5MonicaI_ee&y? 

1 1 A Ycs,Ibave. 

1 2 Q Howmanytimes? 

1 3 A once. 

1 4 Q Wkndidtbatoccur? 

1 5 A once personally. 

1 6 Q 05cepetscmally. Istkze8nyotbe!cway? 

1’ 7 A OnTv. 

1 8 Q okay. Allright. AsidefhxlTv. 

I! 9 A Tbc&tU4ldatt,I&ndEUlll. 

a 0 Q Doyoi3remu&ertktimcofyaritwas? 

2 1 A No, I don’t. 

2 2 Q okay. -you xuncm~wllowasworldngtbatday 

2. 2 .?I along with you? 

2g 4 A theotherpemn~readi. 

2 5 Q ‘whowasthat? 

Pw6 

1 A offion Steven Poppy. 

2 Q Okay. Andwenzyoutminingthatday? Wacyuuin 

3tlahing? 

4 A No. 

5 Q okay. Y~~j~~~~~? 

I 6 A working. Yes, 

7 Q wkt post? 

B A south- gate. 

, 9 Q Ohy. Andwasthatyourregularpost? 

1r 5 A Yes, ma’am. 

1 1. Q AlIrigbt. Anddoyou luIKmbcrwbatdayofthe 

1: 

1: 

11 

1: 

II 

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1: 

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21 

2 

2 

2: 

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2 tiitwas? 

3 A Ibe&veitwasawe&eani I’m not quite Wm. 

I Q okay, Tellusaboattkincickmt. 

5 A okay. skapproacbcdtkgateand~cerPoppy 

6 lookaiatmandsaid,“Doyouknowwbotktis?” 

7 And I said, “No, I don’t” 

B Adh:sai~Tllat’stb:Mdcnt’s-” He 

9 ~~‘t~~~kj~~a~~~~~f~ 

D AndIsaid,“Wbatarcyoutalkiqabout?” Andk 

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2 ~ndIsaid,“You’mkiddingmc.” Andksaia 

3 “You’llm.” Andthatwasb8&calIyabolittbcgis%oftkL 

4 Alse,ksai&“W~thePmsidimtwiIlbcmov& 

5 inabouttc!alminutcs.” 

4 Q Wlrmbadkb&a? 

5 A Intbelr!si~. 

6 Q Andwkredidkmovcto? 

7 A To the Was Wing. 

8 Q Anddidkdotbatwitbiatcnminutes? 

9 A Intartofiftaxlminutcs. Yes. 

0 Q Andwastbaeactuallyabctplacedonthis? 

1 A No. 

2 Q okay. B~~~d~~P~py~~y~~ 

Sthat? HowdidktcUyoutbatkthougbttbcPrcsidcnt 

4 wouldmovewitbiatmminutes? Wktdidksay? 

5 A Inmfa’azetobisfaci&cxpm!ssian,Igutsstbat 

6 wassuppadtotellmttimt-whntkbeeyingtodowith 

7 bisfatxwaskwasgoiqtomoveonuskanaein. 

8 Q 18~. Doyou -wktwOIdSOffiClXPoppy 

9 usad,tbo@‘l 

0 A No,kdidn’tulseanywcrds. Hcjustmadcafacial 

I cxprcssion. 

2 Q okay. Didksnycmythingiutefamatolmw 

3 quicklytkRsidcntwouldmovcoran~likethat? 

4 A No. No,ma’am. 

5 QWill,*~you -batbatoffun Poppymid 

1 

2 

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A BmhllybmIatplaincdit Hcjustsaid, 

mflfs tk hrsi&M’r - ” 

ADd I uib Tau’lc kidding.” 

fIe&dit@nmdtkak*%Btcb. Hem 

kmmirrs=Ysb=eT 

Q okay. Mn’gtd 

A Andtbmkdidmovc. 

Q Andymandk-andyouandORcuPoppya 

~blttomatitmtkRusiht’rmovarx& beaodmtkradio: 

A Badmmdiocama&hm. Yu, 

Q Andyounidi~factikPmidrmtdfdmovcfmm 

tknridawntowbEc7 

A TotkWatWii 

Q ohy. Andyuiaidtktwmclvirfdacntrfiha 

miautuofMoaicaA Ycas,ma’am, 

Q Wutktofbubcingckanxiin? 

A YCS. A.ftuskwasckarcdin. Ya. 

Q Okay. Doyuu~~~~~buwb&r&~wnitheWAVE!S 

m-dayl 

A Ya,skwm. 

Q ohy. Doyoukwwwborbewuhto~? 

A No,Ididn’tmrk~compu@r. 

Q Doycziukmwwktbusk~~wltbbu 

Pages-Page8 

~vcrsified Rmrting Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 
3011 

. xnrc: GnndhuyProcetdmgr 

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2 A Idm’tlecall. 

3 Q IlidskhaveanypnsczSswithbutbat~ c%fts 

4 for anyone? 

5 A Idon’txccd. 

6 Q&P mmnkr~8bOUt-didSbC&to 

7 you3 

8 A No. 

9 Q Didsksjmkto&poppy? 

0 A Ida$trad. 

1 Q btbucanything-cbyo~nxdwbdhasbt 

2 mke4Titocamntinsidcth:boothwhcnyou~ 

3 A No, sk didn’t 

4 Q Doyou~wktbuitmsbotthat~ 

5 A Idon’txecd. 

6 Q-s 

7 A lhiswasa~dayformc. Ididn’tthink 

8 anythirrgofituntilthen. 

9 Q okay. hyouremtmbcranythingaboutk 

10 ap~whatshewas~howskwas~ 

!I A No. 

!2 Q Didyoucvcrs&hcragainalktbt? 

3 A No. 

!4 MS.wIRrn Docs8nyonehaveanyquestioos? 

!5 (No -.) 

Page 1( 

1 THEFOREPERSON: OKumI@ridr,I’dliketothanl 

2youforyomtcstinmy. YouarccxaasA. 

3 THEwITNE!s: Thankyou 

4 h4!LwIRm -Ihnkyouvay~ 

5 (-IllCWitlKSSwaSCXCllSd.) 

6 (whmpm&at2:48pm,tktakingofttstimmy 

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8 umchlded.) 

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