provisions of a form entitled, "Authorization to Release 

Psychological Treatment Records and Information," that was 

executed by MONICA S. LEWINSKY. Present for the interview was 

Associate Independent Counsel (AIC) MICHAEL EMMICK of the Office 

of the Independent Counsel (OIC). 

KASSORLA, a white female, born l -m, was 

interviewed in the office of her attorney, ALAN I. KAPLAN, 1925 

Century Park East, Suite 600, Los Angeles, California 90067, 

telephone _. Also representing KASSORLA was JOHN H. 

LAVJSLY, JR., 2049 Century Park East, Los Angeles, California 

90067, telephone _, and CAROL ANN PETREN, 1341 G 

Street N-W., Washington, D.C. 20005, telephone l _. 

KASSORLA requested that the details of her interview not be made 

public; however, she was cautioned that the OIC could not 

guarantee this and that she should assume that it would be made 

.public. Thereafter, KASSORLA provided the following information: 

KASSORLA said that she would be answering questions 

based solely on her memory, as she did not take any notes or 

prepare any records of the content of her discussions with 

LEWINSKY. 

KASSORLA counseled MONICA LEWINSKY from 1992 to June 

18, 1997. KASSORLA knows LEWINSKY as MONICA LEWIS and her 

records are maintained under that name. Since January 1998, 

KASSORLA has maintained LEWINSKY's file under the name -_ 

_ in order to afford greater privacy. KASSORLA became 

very concerned for LEWINSKY when the scandal broke in January. 

KASSORLA counseled LEWINSKY in person until the fall of 

1993 when LEWINSKY moved to Portland, Oregon to attend LEWIS and 

CLARK COLLEGE. Thereafter, some telephone consultations were 

scheduled and others occurred when LEWINSKY called KASSORLA. The 

consultations did not occur on a regular basis, partially because 

of money concerns on LEWINSKY's part. KASSORLA declined to 

provide the name of the person paying LEWINSKY's fees. 

Investigation on 08/28/98 LO&ANGELES, CALIFORNIA File I 29D OIC LR 35063 

Date dictated 08/31/98 
there in order to increase her social contacts. KMSORLA 

received a call from 

President WILLIAM J. 

and excited when she 

with the President. 

KASSORLA was shocked 

believed LEWINSKY to 

LEWINSKY.just after her affair with 

CLINTON began. LEWINSKY was happy, giddy, 

related the begi,nning of her relationship 

LEWINSKY was very happy to be desired. 

and surprised at the relationship, but 

be truthful from the start. KASSORLA 

believed that the relationship.had just started since that is 

what LEWINSKY told her and because LEWINSKY was always very 

forthright and would not hold anything back. 

LEWINSKY said she met with the President in a room or 

area next to the Oval Office that had two doors. 

Over time, KASSORLA learned more about how the affair 

was developing. LEWINSKY said she had performed oral sex on the 

President, that they had engaged in the usual foreplay and 

fondling of each other, but that they had not engaged in sexual 

intercourse. KASSORLA said that some of the sexual encounters 

occurred while LEWINSKY and the President were standing up. 

KASSORLA expressed concern that the President and LEWINSKY would 

be discovered and recommended that the two doors be locked. 

LEWINSKY related to KASSORLA that she and the President 

were lovers, but that they did not have intercourse. The 

President did not want to have intercourse, but his rationale is 

unknowr??o KASSORLA. LEWINSKY had orgasms by manipulatioh"%nd it 

was KASSORLA's impression that the President touched LEWINSKY to 

cause the orgasms. At times, this affair was an overwhelmingly 

satisfying relationship for LEWINSKY. The affair provided help 

for LEWINSKY's problems of self esteem and self confidence. 

The central theme of LEWINSKY's relationship with the 

President was that the President dominated the encounters. 

KASSORLA has a fuzzy memory of LEWINSKY saying that the President 

was very cautious to conceal their relationship. KASSORLA 

advised LEWINSKY on multiple occasions that she was an employee 

having an office romance with a superior, that she would 

ultimately lose her job, and would have bad references for future 

jobs. KASSORLA tried to prepare LEWINSKY for the desperate ego 

blow that would result when she would be fired to protect the 

President. KASSORLA counseled LEWINSKY not to share this 

information with anyone except another therapist, inasmuch as 

LEWINSKY was the only one who would be harmed. KASSORLA 

recommended that LEWINSKY obtain a therapist in Washington, D.C., 
At some point during the telephonic consultations, 

KASSORLA recommended that they use a code name for the President 

in case they were overheard. KASSORLA's recollection is that 

KASSORLA suggested the name "ELIZABETH" or a similar name. 

also referred to the President as @'her." 

They 

LEWINSKY probably did not see the down side of her 

relationship. However, it was very frustrating for LEWINSKY 

since the President was in charge of-scheduling their sexual 

encounters. The President became LEWINSKY's life. 

into LEWINSKY's life when the President scheduled a visit with 

her. Sometimes LEWINSKY and KASSORLA discussed what LEWINSKY was 

going to wear on her next scheduled visit with the President. 

KASSORLA was very concerned about LEWINSKY's periodic bouts of 

depression and sadness, which coincided with the absence of 

contact with the President. LEWINSKY was very negative at times. 

KASSORLA said that there is always some possibility of suicide 

with depressed people. 

KASSORLA considered LEWINSKY to be very open, very 

honest, and very giving. KASSORLA had no reason to suspect that 

LEWINSKY was withholding any information from her. KASSORLA 

believes that the information concerning sexual events between 

LEWINSKY and the President were reported to KASSORLA soon after 

they occurred. KASSORLA returned several of LEWINSKY's calls to 

her office at the White House. 

It was the impression of KASSORLA that after LEWINSKY 

began working in the Pentagon, LEWINSKY could only get into the 

White House if the President called and invited her over. 

KASSORLA knows BETTY CURRIE by name only. KASSORLA never heard 

the name of LINDA TRIPP from LEWINSKY. KASSORLA never heard any 

discussion of the PAULA JONES lawsuit or the fact that LEWINSKY 

had been subpoenaed in that case. 

LEWINSKY bought the President a tie, which he wore to 

an event in the Rose Garden. The President gave knowing glances 

to LEWINSKY at the event. KASSORLA has the impression that 

LEWINSKY gave other gifts to the President, but has no further 

recollection. KASSORLA has no knowledge of any notes or letters 

that LEWINSKY sent to the President. KASSORLA has a vague 
esdet ay ave gveWS. 

LEWINSKY spoke of numerous telephone calls that she 

received from the President. LEWINSKY played a recording of a 

message from the President tc LEWINSKY in which he uttered the 

words 'law shucks." KASSORLA recognized the President's voice. 

LEWINSKY may have mentioned the "phone sex" calls, but KASSORLA 

has no recollection. 

After LEWINSKY was transferred to the Pentagon.from the 

White House, she expressed her continued unhappiness with the new 

job. KASSORLA tried to sell LEWINSKY on the positive aspects of 

the Pentagon job, but KASSORLA was unsuccessful. LEWINSKY spoke 

many times of wanting to go back to work in the White House. 

KASSORLA has no knowledge of EVELYN LIEBERMAN or MARSHA SCOTT. 

The President gave LEWINSKY a goodbye speech in which 

he said that LEWINSKY was such a wonderful girl, but that he was 

concerned about his wife and daughter. KASSORLA believes that 

the speech was manufactured by the President and not sincere. 

LEWINSKY accepted the speech as true. 

KASSORLA said that LEWINSKY's.credibility is without 

question. LEWINSKY has never been dysfunctional or delusional, 

as evidenced by the fact that she was able to work at several 

jobs and attend school. LEWINSKY's thought processes were good. 

LEWINSKY has been completely consistent in repeating the details 

of her relationship with the President. KASSORLA had almost a 

five year association with LEWINSKY and found her to be 

consistently truthful. 
Rock, AR, telephone em_ 

of the purpose of the interview, 

HOLIMAN and KAYE were advised 

official identities 

Special Agents (SAs) 

and Office of the In 

_ KAYE then p 

L.P., 

KAYE formerly owned a company known as KAYE INSURANCE, 

and he is now a consultant to that company, as well as 

being Chairman Emeritus. Additionally, KAYE is one of two CASA's 

for the state of New York, having been appointed to this unpaid 

position by Secretary of the Army, TOGO WEST, in 1993. KAYE was 

not acquainted with WEST prior to the appointment. KAYE stated 

that he takes several trips each year on behalf of the U.S. Army 

for the purpose of extending and enhancing the image of the U.S. 

Army. KAYE pointed out that the trips are not just within the 

state of New York, and that he always pays his own expenses. 

KAYE advised that he first became associated with the 

Democratic Party in 1973, and since that time has served in 

several volunteer positions in addition to donating several 

thousand dollars to various Democratic causes. This political 

activity has also resulted in KAYE meeting and working with many 

Democratic activists and supporters. 

KAYE met MARCIA LEWIS approximately 10 to 15 years ago 

in Beverly Hills, California, as a result of being introduced to 

her by a mutual friend, JOSEPH SINAY. KAYE had infrequent 

contact with LEWIS over the next several years, and remembers 

that, in about 1994 or 1995 she moved to Washington, D-C., 

he saw her occasionally. 

where 

LEWIS moved to Washington, 

KAYE recalls it was sometime after 

D.C. that LEWIS contacted him and 

asked him to assist in getting an intern job at the White House 

for her daughter, MONICA LEWINSKY. 

specifics of meeting LEWINSKY, 

KAYE does not recall the 

but is reasonably certain that he 

Invesligation on 3/27/98 at New York City, NY file# 29D-OIC-LR-35063 

SA 

by CI dictated 4 /l/98 
ypp, g

sometimes he might only do a telephone interview. KAYE said his 

normal practice is to ask for a resume, and he probably did in 

this case as well; however, he cannot now remember seeing a 

resume for LEWINSKY. 

KAYE remembers that after receiving the request from 

LEWIS and LEWINSKY, he then called "the people" at the Democratic 

National Party to see if they could help in the placement of 

LEWINSKY. KAYE does not currently remember for certain who he 

may have discussed the LEWINSKY job with, but believes it may 

have been JENNIFER SCULLY, who at that time was a full-time 

worker at the Democratic Party Headquarters. KAYE does not 

recall writing a letter to anyone, calling anyone at the White 

House, and does not recall visiting anyone at the White House on 

behalf of LEWINSKY. KAYE did state that it was possible that he 

discussed the possibility of a job for LEWINSKY with ANN MCCOY, 

who worked in the visitors office at the White House at that 

time. 

KAYE has no recollection of speaking to President 

CLINTON, First Lady HILLARY CLINTON, NANCY HERNREICH, BETTY 

CURRIE, MAGGIE WILLIAMS, BOB NASH, VERNON JORDAN, or JOHN PODESTA 

about getting a White House job for LEWINSKY. 

KAYE believes that his inquiries and contacts were 

"instrumental" in getting LEWINSKY an intern position at the 

White House. KAYE believes that he actually learned of the 

appointment of LEWINSKY from LEWINSKY or her mother, and did not 

otherwise have advance notice that she was going to be accepted 

into the intern program. KAYE remembers that each of them and 

possibly LEWINSKY's aunt, 

LEWINSKY the appointment. 

DEBRA FINERMAN, thanked him for getting 

KAYE remembers that FINERMAN had, at 

some point, also asked for his assistance, and they had also 

discussed the possibility of getting LEWINSKY into the intern 

program. FINERMAN was a close friend of KAYE's and he saw her 

more frequently than LEWINSKY or LEWIS. 
a payg job at te Wte ouse. 

about the paying job by LEWIS. LEWIS gave as a reason for the 

request, that LEWINSKY's father had refused to financially 

support LEWINSKY any longer. KAYE told LEWIS, I'I'll try." KAYE 

said that, by this time, he had become incensed by the book 

written by LEWIS entitled The Three Tenors, therefore, even at 

the time when she asked for assistance, he had no intention of 

helping LEWINSKY get a new position. 

KAYE stated that even though he could not be certain 

about the dates, he did recall that, again, either LEWIS, 

LEWINSKY, or both contacted him and asked for assistance with 

regard to getting LEWINSKY a job at the Pentagon. KAYE remembers 

these two events being in close proximity in time and that he 

chose not to make any calls on LEWINSKY's behalf, primarily 

because of his remaining anger over LEWIS's book. KAYE said he 

never confronted LEWIS regarding his strong feelings about the 

book. 

KAYE stated that he heard a rumor later which indicated 

that the job held by LEWINSKY had been eliminated and this 

required that she seek other employment. 

KAYE remembers that probably both FINERMAN and LEWINSKY 

talked to him about getting LEWINSKY in to a fundraiser in New 

York City. He remembers that he told both of them that he could 

not help with their request and also remembers saying "these 

things cost a lot of money." KAYE clearly recalls that he did 

not buy LEWINSKY a ticket to the fundraiser. 

Another request that KAYE recalls being made by 

LEWINSKY, at some point in time, was if KAYE could get LEWINSKY 

in to see the President. LEWINSKY seemed to be taken in by the 

glamor of the situation. KAYE indicated to her that he could not 

arrange such a meeting. KAYE said that even though he does not 

recall ever expressing to anyone his evaluation of LEWINSKY, it 

was his feeling that she was an "aggressive young lady." 
, but guessed that it possibly 

could be from FINERMAN. KAYE stated that he slowly began to 

distance himself from LEWINSKY, LEWIS, and FINERMAN following the 

publication of LEWIS'S book. 

The above interview was concluded; however, 

approximately two hours later on the initiative of KAYE's 

attorney (HOLIMAN), KAYE telephonically provided the following 

additional information concerning the interview: 

KAYE recalls that he received a telephone call from 

BRUCE LINDSEY either the next day, or possibly up to two days, 

after the CLINTON/LEWINSKY story was made public in the 

newspapers. KAYE said that LINDSEY had called him first, and 

then the following conversation took place when KAYE returned his 

call. LINDSEY asked KAYE what he knew about MONICA LEWINSKY. 

KAYE said he was beginning to tell him what he knew about 

LEWINSKY when LINDSEY cut in and said that he had to take another 

very important telephone call and that he would call him back 

later. KAYE said LINDSEY did not call back and he has not talked 

to LINDSEY since that time. 

KAYE said the next topic covered in the interview that 

may need some additional clarification had to do with who had 

passed to him the rumor that the President was having an affair 

with LEWINSKY. KAYE said that, after thinking about this he now 

believes that it was either CAROL PINSKY or RONNIE GINOTT. Both 

were at that time affiliated with the Democratic Party. PINSKY 

was more directly a part of the Women's Leadership Forum (WLF), 

which is a part of the Democratic Party structure. KAYE said it 

was one or the other of these two people, and possibly both of 

them. KAYE stated that he did not believe the rumors and did not 

take any action as a result of hearing them. 
Race: 

Sex: 

Date of Birth: 

Social Security 

Account Number: 

Residence: 

Telephone Number: 

Employment: 

Telephone: 

Caucasian 

of the Army 

Civilian Aide, Secretary of the Army 

122 East 42nd Street 

New York City, NY 10168 

212-338-2300 
2020 
n re: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Page”* May 21,1991 

lJN*mD 32*Tcs DISTRICT COURT 

Page 1 

mu ?m DISTRICT 01 COLUIQIA 1 PROCEEDINGS 

_-_--__-_-_-_--------~ 2 Whereupon, 

I” RF.: 3 WALTER KAYE 

GRAND JURY PnmElLDIYcs : 4 wasmlledasawitnessan4havingbeenfrrsddulyswomby 

and r&i&xl _--___-__--------~ 

5 tbeForeperxmoftbeGrandJury,wasexamhed 

&rndJuryrocaWO. 36 as follows: 

uniti states District caart 7 for the Dl#triCC Of ca1lmbla EXAhiINATION 

3rd ‘ Cwutitution, “.I. 

W~~hlaqton, D.C. 20001 

8 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Thurmday, nay 21, 1999 

9 Q Good morning. Would you state your name for tk 

z)H u,tlmmy or NALTU ImyTi -.* Ukml in w 

10 record, please? 

pro..nc. of . tull quo- oi Gcu~d Jury 91-2, Lnpraeled am 

11 A Yes. Walter Kaye, K-a-y-e. 

s8pcabcr 19, 1991, eoarncl.aq at 9:49 ..I., betore: 12 Q And,hir.Ka~,mynameisSolWisenbexg. Ithink 

sorawM*I~ 13 we met outside. I’m with the Off& of the Independent 

mnY Am WIRYK 

As8oClate 1swp.namt CowI~Ol 14 cwnstl. To my left is my colleague, Mary Ann Whth, who 

orria or 1D@patint coua9e1 1001 eumsylruAi~ AV.mm. R.N. 15 also an attorney with the Office of Independent Counse 

suit* 490 rortb 

Warhinqtom, D.C. 20004 16 This is the grand jury court reporter, and these 

17 are the grand jurors. 

18 I’m going to go through your rights and 

19 responsibilities as a grand jury witness, and a little bit 

20 about our authority, and then I’m going to - as I do tha 

21 occasionallyI’llaskyouaquesticm,andwbatIwouldask 

22 for is an audible response that the court reporter can pick 

23 up. 

24 A I just have to mention to yoy although you’xe 

25 talking in a loud enou& voice, but for anybody else who ask 

PagO 2 pagt1 

collTcYIs 1 me a question, I have no hearing on my left ear. 

2 Q Okay. 

YITNESS: PUY 3 A So sometimes it’s pretty difficuh for me to 

4 uadcrstand, so - 

wuter I(ry. 3 5 Q Okay. Well, if there’s anything you don’t 

6 understand, if we’re not loud enough, let us know. 

CRAWD .,l,RI SXHIBIZS: 7 A You’re fine. 

8 Q Okay. Yes, I’m not usually accused of being too 

“0. m-1 Docu%.nt, ” 9awr1y Hill, Wrq~zinc 11 9 soft-spoken. 

10 This is a federal grand jury impaneled by tht 

“0. m-2 1994 Illcoy r- P.,,-Thru, 13 11 United States District Court for the District of Collrmbia 

12 Do you understand that? 

“0. m-3 Post-it mu on Mibit UK-2 13 13 A Yes, Sir. 

14 Q Andweareempowered-thegrandjuryisempoti 

“0. m-4 Check to 9.wrly Hill, )uqarlna 14 15 to look at, among other things, possible obstruction of 

“0. *-5 Seh.d~I. K-i ror 1993 IS 16 justice in relation to the lawsuit of Jones v. Clinton. Do 

“0. *1(-s caiirorni~ mm 3sco 1s 17 you understand that? 

“0. Wx-7 Sch.&La K-1 tOr 1994 16 18 A say that again? 

“0. yI(-0 copy 0r st0.=k mrtirieat* 16 19 Q Oneofthethingsthegrandjuryhasbeeneharged 

IQ. wc-9 ~h.c* r- by9 to bwis ror 510,000 17 20 with doing is looking into possible &stru&m of justice in 

no. *K-10 vol. I, "0. 1, 9wer1y Hill9 mqarin* 19 21 the lawsuit of Jones v. Clinton. 

NO. m-11 vol. *, 90. 2, Bw*r1y 11111~ luqazim 19 22 ARight. 

no. NK-12 10-23-9s - to Kaye tra McCoy 00 23 Q h you understand, sir? 

“0. wx-13 10-17-91 - to MCCOY tram Thosls8on 81 24 A Which I read about in the papers. 

. . . . l 25 Q Right. And I’m now going to go into your rights 

Divcrsificd Reporting Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

Page 1 -Page4 
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wF71 

130,4Oyears. Ijustthoughtheoughttocomedown,tco. 

2 Q Okay. Andhis nameis? I 

n re: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Pagem May 21.1998 4 

Page! 5 

I and responsibilities as a grand jury witness. 

2 First of all, you have the privikge against self3 incrimination. Do you understand that? 3 A Norman Cohen, C-o-h. 

4 A I wouldn’t mind if you’d explain that to me. 4 Can I ask you a question? I’m a very curious gu, 

5 Q Okay. In other words, if a truthful answer to any 5 Istbatadictationmachineor-amIallowedtoaskthat? 

6 of our questions today would tend to incriminate you - 6 THE REPORTER: Yes, it is. 

7 A Atntthfulanswer? 7 THE WITNESS: So it’s - you’re dictating - oh, I 

8 Q A truthful answer, right You’re never allowed tc , 8 9ct. Soyou’redictatingintotkmachine-Iunderstand 

9 give iill untruthfi~I answer. 9 I’m sorry, but I - 

0 A Right. 10 BY h4R. WISENBERG: 

1 Q But if a truthful answer to a question would tend 11 Q- Generally the witness doesn’t ask questions. 

2 toincrimin ate you, you can say, “I refuse to mswcz on the 12 A Oh, okay. 

3 grounds of self-incrimination.” Do you understand that 3 . 13 (LaughtfN 

4 A k that similar to the Fifth Amendment? 14 Q But that’s a perfectly acceptable question. 

5 Q It is, it’s exactly the same. 15 Now, even though your lawyer can’t be here with 

6 A I’ve never had any experience with it, but, again, 16 you,youwillbegivcnarcasooableoppommity,ifyoun&d 

7 just as a layperson who’s mad about these things. 17 to, to go talk to your lawyer. You understand that? 

8 Q Right. In other words, I’II give you an example. I8 A Yes, sir. 

9 IfIa&you,didyourobtheGothamCityBankonApril1, 19 Q Allright. Weareboundbyanoathofsecmcy. 

o 1995? If, in fact, you really did rob that bank, then the a d 20 ‘Ihatis,myself,Ms.Wirth,tbt~rcporta,aodthtgrand 

1 truthful answer to that would be yes, but that would . 

. 11 jurorsarenotallowedtotalkabout-withcertain 

2 incrimkte you So you could say, “Mr. Wiseaberg, I assert a 4 22 exceptions are not allowed to talk about what goes on here 

3 myFiiAmcndmntrights. Ird=usetoMswu ontIrgrDunds 1 

. 23 today. Do you understand that? 

4 that it may incriminate me.” Do you understand? a 4 24 A Yes, sir. 

5 A Yes, sir. . d 15 Q Onthtotbahsnd,youarenotboundbyanoathof 

i pagt 

1 secrecy. You can tell anybody you want to or not tell 

2 anybody you want to. ‘That’s bctwczn you and your aaomey. 

3 Do you understand? 

4 A YCS, sir. 

5 Q M right I’fl give you an example of one or two 

I 6 exceptions to our secrecy mqu&ments. For instance, if 

7 therewaseveratrialaaatesultofthis&esti@ion,and 

8 youweretobewitneas,andyousaidsomethingdifferentat 

9 trial than you said here at tht grand jury, then somebody 

1 IO could use your grand jury testimony and say, “Mr. Kaye, you 

1 !I said something diffemnt at tht grand jury.‘, 

1 ,2 Ibatwouldbeanexampkofwbaetksecrecymle 

1 13 canbebreachtd. Doyouunderstandthat? 

1 !4 A Ye-S, Sir. 

1 s Q Anditcanbreachtd~aanntgiveaus 

1 .6 pumissicm. Ifyougotoaceurtandsay,“Hcre’sareason 

1 .7 whywcnecdtobrcachgrandjurysecmey~andtkceurt 

I .8 allows you to do it, you could Q it. You un&staud that? 

1 9 A Yes, sir. 

2 !o Q AU right. You understand that you have an 

2 !I obligation to tell the truth 

2 12 A Yes, sir. 

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Q 1’11 give you another example. Let’s say that the 

Gotham City Bank was robbal by a person driving a nxl Camaro, 

andthatyourobbcdthebank,andthatyouhadartdCamaro, 

you drove a red Camaro to the bank. 

If I asked you, Mr. Kaye, did you drive a red 

Camaro on April 1,1995, you could refuse to ausww OnFfi 

Amen-t grounds because tbat would tend to incriminate you. 

Do you understand that? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q Okay. You do not have a right to have a lawyer 

with you in the grand jury room. Do you umksand that? 

A Yes, I understand that. 

Q But you do have a tight to have a lawyer outside of 

the grand jury room. Do you understand that? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q And do you have such a lawyer? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q Andcanyoutelluswhathisnameis? 

A RickHolimatt. It’sRickorRichard. Bislastname 

is Holimzm. 

Q Allright 

A H-o-l-i-m-a-n. 

Q AlI right. And he’s got an associate, or you have 

any lawyer out there, too? 

A Well, yeah The other lawyer’s been my lawyer for 

Q Evaybodywhotestifl~-andtbeserigbtswerwd 

toeverybodywhocomesi.niiontofthegrandjury,most I 

5 evaybody. Evuybodywhotestiflesinfrontoftbegnmd I 

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2023 

In re: Grand Jurv Proceedings Millti-Pas Tbi Mav 21-1998 

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jury is under oath and subject to the rules about perjury 

Do you understand that? 

A YeS, Sir. 

Q Like 1 Said, if thc2-C i3I-e ilIly qUfXtiOIlS that YOU 

don’t un&rstand, either because you can’t hear them or 

because they’re too convoluted, too lawyer-like, or just 

plain incompreknaible, just let us know and we’ll rephrase 

tht question. 

A okay, fine. 

Q Is there anything about your rights and 

responsibilities as a grand jury witness that you do not 

understand? 

A IthinkIunderstandthemprettywell. 

Q (he Other thing. There are different CatCgOrkS Of 

witnesseswhocomeinfrontofagtandjury. Andthereare 

peoplewhoaretargets. AndI’mspeaking-thisisan 

unofficial designation of witnesses. 

You have targets, subjects, and witnesses in front 

ofagrandjury. Atargetisapersonwbotheprosecutorand 

tk~juryaremorethan50pementcertainthatperaon 

is going to be indicted. Do you understand? 

A (Nodding.) 

Q You have to answer yes or no. 

A huderstand,ycS. 

Q You are not a target. You understand that? 

Page IC 

1 A ‘Ihank you. 

2 Q Okay. A subject would be somebody who’s not a 

3 target,butwhothegrandjuryhassomecoa~sabouttheir 

4 activity. Do you understand that definition? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q You are not a subject. You understand that. 

7 A Yes, sir. 

8 Q A witness is somebody who just comes before the 

9 grand jury and has information that the grand jury believes 

o is relevant. Do you understand that definition? 

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A Ye&sir. 

Q You are a witness. You understand that. 

A Yes, sir. 

Q We can’t promise anybody that they’ll always remain 

in that category, the witness category. We can’t tell 

anyone, You’ll never be a target.” But that’s the category, 

informal category, that you’re in now. Do you understand 

that? 

A Yes, Sir. 

Q Okay. With that, I will hand it over to my 

ColleaglX - oh, yes, one other thing. I understand you’m 

he=Put==n t to subpoena today; is that correct? 

A Right. 

Q And in addition to calling for you to come, there 

was a subpoena for any relevant documents that you have; is 

.v - 

Page 1’ 

1 that correct? 

2 A Those axe the ones that pertain to this. 

3 Q Okay. 

4 Q And as a result of that subpoena you’ve brought us 

5 some documents; is that correct? 

6 A Yes, sir. 

7 Q Before we get started on the questioning, let me - 

8 I’mgoingtocomeova~xttoyouandI’11comeonthisride 

9 sina 

0 A 

1 Q 

2 A 

3 Q 

4 A 

5 Q 

That’s the good ear. 

- this is the good ear. We’ll go over them. 

Sure. 

What is your - do you have a middle initial? 

No, I do not. 

Okay. I’m going to mark the firs packet as Gran 

6 Jury Exhibit m-1. 

7 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. WK-I was 

8 marked for identification.) 

9 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

10 Q Andyousee~IhaveputWK-Ionthae;isthat 

I czmrect? 

2 A Yes, sir. 

3 Q Can you tell us generally what this packet is? 

4 A ‘IhisisNormaDCohen’s--andIon’tcvcn~iS 

,5 his memorandum. ‘Ihis letter is a letter that Cohen - mu 

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Page 12 

know, it comes from Norman C&n, in which k writes to xu 

aboutaninvestmentthatImadeinthismagazinethatyw’ll 

come across here. 

Q And that’s Beverly Hills Magazine? 

A That was the Beverly HiUs Magazine. 

Q And who was it that asked you to invest in that 

magazine? 

A Marcia Lewis and her sister, Debra Finerman. 

Q Okay. And I believe she’s referred to in this 

letter from your attorney to you as Debra Lewis; is that 

correct? 

A Yeah,yeah,butkrnameis-well,thatwasb 

maiden-Idon’teveolraowwhythatwas,butshtsomtirats 

woLIldcallkrselfDebraI&VisMdsomctimsDebraFii 

Q But it’s one and the same person. 

A h’s the Same person, yes. 

Q Okay. And this exhibit, WK-1, has 1,2,3,4,5, 

6, 7,8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 pages; is that correct? 

A Yes, Sir. 

Q And it includes different kinds of documents, 

letters discussing the corporation papers; is that correct? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q Okay. We won’t go through them all. 

A Okay. 

Q Thesecondd ocumentisacopyofsomethingthat 

Page 9 - Page 12 

Diversified Reporting Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 
2024 

In re: Grand Jw Procecdines 

Page 1: 

May 21,1998 

l 

Page 1s 

1 A Yes, sir. 

2 Q Alfrighk I’mtryingtomarkitinaplaccwhzre 

3 it won’t cover up anything. 

4 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. m-5 was 

5 marked for identification.) 

6 BY MR_ WISENBERG: 

7 Q I’ve marked that WK-5; is that comzt? 

8 A Yes, sir. 

9- Q Ailright AndthenafterthatisaCalifornia 

10 form, a corporation election or termination revocation, 

11 California Form 3560; is that correct? 

12 A That’s what it says, yes. This was the OenninatiOr 

13 ofthepartne&ipor14 Q Well, it says, “S Corporation Election or 

15 Tuminathhvocation.” Butitappwsmbtataxdocunmt 

16 related to you and the Beverly HilIs Magazine. 

17 A Which I really don’t understand 

18 Q Idm’tcitkr. 

19 A okay. 

20 Q But we’re going to mark itbecause you brought it 

21 We’ll have somebody look at it who does understand it. 

22 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. ~4 was 

23 marked for identification.) 

N BY MR. WLSENBERG: 

25 Q And I’ve marked that as w-6; is that correct? 

1 says, “1994 Income from Pass-Thrus”; is that correct? 

2 A yes, sir. 

3 Q Can you tell us briefly what that is? 

4 A f really don’t know. I don’t know what a pass5 throughis. Mytzixn%umsarealways&mebymyaecounuin 

dso7 Q Okay. And there’s a littIe yellow sticky that 

8 says, “From I994 Tax Return“; is that correct? 

9 A Evidently my secretary or my assistant took that 

10 fbmthetaxretum. 

II Q Okay. So I’m going to mark this as wK-2. 

12 A Okay, sir. 

13 (Grand Jury Exhibit No, WK-2 was 

14 marked for ideutifieatiou.) 

IS BY MR. WISENBERO: 

16 Q And just to show you how thorough we are, how 

17 tech&al, how somethi.ug-orotber~ I’m going to mark the 

18 little sticky, since it’s not stapled on, as WK-3. 

19 A Okay, sir. 

10 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. WK-3 was 

!1 marked for identification.) 

!2 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

!3 Q And I have done so; is that correct? 

!4 A Yes, Sir. 

!5 Q Our next document is a copy, front and back, of a 

f 

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check from you to the Beverly Hills Magazine; is that 

correct? 

A Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 

Q All right. And that represents that $30,000 

investment that you spoke about, all right? 

A Right. 

Q We’re going to mark that as wK-4. 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. m-4 was 

marked for identif?cation.) 

BY MR. WISENBERGz 

Q And have I marked that as wK+ 

A (No response.) 

Q Is that correct? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q Allright. Thenwebavesometax-wbatlooklike 

pagesfromataxreturn;isthatcormct? 

A f believe so, yes, sir. 1% pretty sure. 

Q Or if not froma tax return, at least tax-related 

dam is that correct? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q It says Schedule - oh, it‘s a K-l; is that 

ComXt? 

A That’s the information they would give me. 

Q All right. And that’s from Be&y Bills Magazine 

to you 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

0 

,I 

2 

A Okay. 

Page 

Q And then we have another Schedule K-t, Tax Yea 

1994, rclakd to &nrly Hills Magzvine and Walta Kayc; is 

that correct? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q I’m going to mark that as WK-7. 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. WK-7 was 

marked for identification.) 

BY MR. WISENBERO: 

Q AndIhavedoneso;isth&correct? 

A Yts, Sir. 

Q AndwiUyouagnxwithmttbt.t&tf~K-lform 

3 wemarkedasWK-Sisfor 1993taxyear,correct? 

4 A Ye& sir. 

5 Q And then we’ve got HK -well, we’ve got, it looks 

6 Iike,asham7 A Looks fikr a stockholder’s dividend. 

8 Q Righs for 50 shares of the Beverly Bills Magazine 

9 ~y~~~. 

;o A Yts, Sk 

.t Q okay. I’m going to mark the bottom of that as 

2 WK-8; is that umsct? 

3 A Yes, Sir. 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. W&8 ww 

marked for identification.) 

Pas 13 -Page 16 

Diversified Rcportinn; Services, Inc, (202) 296-2929 
In RX Grand Jurv Proceedinns 

Page 1 

1 BY hiR. U’ISENBERG: 

2 Q ‘Ihcnwebaveacheck-wehaveadocumentthatis 

3 a copy, two pages. The first page is the front, the secor 

4 pageistbebackofa&ckfromyoutoMarciaLewisdated 

s November 25,1996, for $10,000; is that correct? 

6 A Yes, sir. 

7 Q All right I’m marking that as WK9; is that 

8 wrrect? 

9 A Yes, Sir. 

0 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. WK-~ was 

.1 marked for identification.) 

2 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

3 Q Allright. Doyou remember offhand what that is 

4 for, or what that $10,000 was for to Marcia Lewis? 

5 A Yeah, I had sort of felt badly for her or 

6 something, and I - I just gave her a gift of $10,000. 

7 Q Okay. ‘Ibat’s around Tbankq$ving of ‘96, correct? 

8 A Yeah, November ‘96, right_ 

9 Q ‘Iken we’ve got a Volume I, No. 1, of Beverly Hills 

o Magazine, a magazine you invested in, with Arnold 

1 Schwatznegger on the covet is that correct? 

2 A Yes, Sk. 

3 Q Are you going to be terribly upset if I put an 

4 exhibit sticker on the magazine? 

5 (Laughter.) 

Multi-Pagem May 21, 1998 

‘1 

7 Page1 

1 street address, but just the city and the state. 

2 A Okay. New York City, New York State. 

rd 3 Q And are you married? 

4 A I am married 

5 Q And what is your wife’s name? 

6 A Selma, Se-l-m-a. 

7 Q And are you currently employed? 

8 A Am I employed? Technically I’m employed 

9 Q Okay. And what do you do? 

10 A Well, I have to give you a few little explanations. 

11 ,Q Sure. 

12 A We had sold our business a number of years ago, and 

13 tbeykeptmeonunderacmsulting agreemenSandmytitlei! 

14 “ChaiIman emeritus.” 

15 Q Of what company? 

16 A Let’ssee,theychangedthenameofthef~after 

17 we sold it. I’m trying to remember. Kaye Insurance LI 

18 Q That’s K-a-y-e like your name? 

19 A That’s right. 

20 , Q Kaye Insurance LP. 

. 4 11 A Right. 

, 4 12 Q And you started that company wfien? 

4 4 13 A That particular company? Well, the predecessor - 

a 

14 . Q The predecessor. 

a 

. !5 A The predecessor company was Walter Kayo Associates 

Page 1E I 

1 A I’m not allowed to say anything, so you can do it. 

2 (Laughter.) 

3 I apologize. 

4 Q Allright. 

5 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. WK-IO was 

6 marked for identification.) 

7 THE WTDJESS: It was a short-lived publishing 

8 business. Not so short-lived, though. 

9 Q We have now Volume I, No. 2, of Beverly Hills 

D Magazine; is that correct? 

Page 2( 

1 A 

2 Q 

3 A 

4 Q 

5 A 

6 Q 

7 

B 

9 

3 Q 

Yes, sir. 

With three female models on the cover. 

Yes, sir. 

I’m going to mark that as ~~-11; is that correct? 

Yes, sir. 

Okay. 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. ~~-11 was 

marked for identification.) 

BY MR. WTSENBERG: 

Now that we’ve got that out of the way, I’m going 

I to turn you over to Ms. Wirth for questioning. 

2 A sure. 

3 BY MS. WIRTHz 

4 Q Mr. Kaye, can you tell the grand jury where you 

5 reside, where your home is? And you don’t have to give us a 

1 

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1 Inc. And I’ve got to think back a long time. Not Wtrcn 

2 went into the insurance business, when I started this 

3 particular company, right? 

4 Q Okay. 

5 A Again, you can’t hold me to the exact date beeausc 

6 Idon’t remember. I would say probably ScmzwlXreintbz 

7 1950s. 

8 Q Okay. And ultimately you sold that company; is 

9 thaczarect? 

0 A Yes. 

1 Q And it is now known-as Kaye Insurance LP? 

2 A Yes. We dropped the Walter. 

3 Q All right. And you’re chairman emeritus. 

4 A chairman emeritus. 

5 Q Okay. And approximately when did you sell the 

6 company? 

7 A We sold the company - let’s see, six years - I 

8 wouldsay m about - be%wccn Novanba and Daxmba of 

9 ‘91. I should say my memory is terrible about that. 

o Approximately. 

!1 Q Approximately, okay. And you mentioned insumncc. 

!Z Any particular type of insurance business was this? 

!3 A We~wewezgmexal insulancebroka.s. Isuppose 

!4 -Imca&Iusumcmrybodyknowswhfitminsltrance~ 

!5 is. Wedidavcqgeneralb&ness,andwealsodidlifeand 

_ 

Diversified Reoorting Services, Inc. (202) 296-2929 

Page 17-Page20 
2026 

Grand Jum Proceedims Multi-Pagem 

1 

May 21,1998 

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paIF2 1 Page 23 

group business. But the bulk of our business was the 

property and casualty business. 

Q Okay. And before Walter Kaye Associates in the 

‘5Os, did you also do insurance work elsewhere? 

A Yes, since 1936. I’ve been in it a long time. 

Q Okay. And did you have your own company at 8ny 

time prior to the ’50s or did you work elsewhere? 

A f went into a partnership - I can’t tell-you&e 

exact date - and the name of the firm was Kabat Kaye, 

K-a-b-a-t K-a-ye. 

A Sure. ‘Th function of each civilian aide is to 

Link the Army with tk public, to explain to the public Army 

missions, tmditiotis, pw and policies, to advise Arm: 

leaders concerning public attitudes and perception.” 

That’s exactly what I do and I love it. 

Q HaveyouevubccnamemberoftheArmcdForccs 

yourself? 

A No, I- was for a very, very short time in ‘43. I 

was in the Navy. 

And prior to that I was with a firm called I’& 

Equitable Brokerage spry, where I sswtfzd as an N 

employee and eventually became a partner. 

Q Okay. So this has been your life-long work, the 

insurance business? 

ARig& 

Q AII right_ Other than your work as chairman 

eme&usofKayeInsuranceLa,doyoubaveotbertitlesor 

jobs? 

A hthisOffiCe? 

Q Okay. Did you have investiture w&n you were 

appointed to this position? 

A ~es,Isun2&& 

Q ~~~ow~M~~~~~~ 

~WStitUE? 

YCS,ShCWiiSthCR. 

Okay. Where did that take place? 

At West Point. 

Q No. Other than your work at Kaye Insurance, are 

there jobs that you do or other titles that you hold? 

A Yes. 

Q Andwhatarethey? 

A I’m what is known as a MA, or a civilian aide tc 

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Q 

Andwashermotherthxvaswell? 

Her mother was the. 

WasherauntDebraHer aunt was &re. 

That’s Debra Fiian. 

Debra Fm. 

Okay. I’m going to ask you some questions about - 

5 wel&stlikethat. BefCXcI&that.#otherthanyourworkas 

PagcZ 

1 the Secretary of the Army, for New York State South. 

2 Q And how long have you held that title? 

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A Again, you can’t hold me exactly. I would say 

somewhere about three years. 

Q About three years? 

A Yeah, about three years. 

Q And how did you obtain that appointment? 

A I was appointed by the - the official appointment 

came from the Secretary of the Army, Togo West, Jr. 

Q And do you receive remuneration for this work? 

A Not - no pay. 

Q Okay. 

A Infact,Idon’tevenletttxzmpaymemyexpenses 

Onota~c,Imay,ifthcyputmtonamilitaryplaot,but 

IQ And what your duties as civiSian aide to the 

%eztary of the &my for Southern New York State? 

A ~Is~wy~~g~t~~pI~rny 

duties? I am really a good wilI ambassador between ti 

pub~candtfreAnny,becauseIcoufdtalktoyoufor~ 

abouttheAnny* ~~~b~~1’~~~ 

That’s it, but on the back of that card, the 

identification card, outlines my duties. 

Q Allright Doyouwanttoreadthceetothegrand 

&r-y? 

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1 

First off, do you have a telephone number that y 

use for business purposes? 

A Whatdoyoumeaubythat? AnumberthatIcali? 

Q Well, let’s begin with Kaye Insurance LP. Do you 

Pane21 -Pane24 

Page A 

~Gmanunuitusfor~ye~uranccandotbathanyourwork 

ascivilianaidetotk!SecwuyoftheArmy,afethcnany 

other jobs, functions, titles that you bold? 

A I’m on th board of directors ‘of our cooperative ir 

New York. No - you know, no moucy. . 

Q Okay. It’s a common affliction in Manhattan. 

ARight 

Q Okay. Otherthauthat? 

A We~,IjustbecameamemberofthcWestPoint 

Association. Of courx, we made d very nhx contribution. 

I’m a great supporter of West Point, great supporter of the 

whole Army. 

Other than that -‘let me see. oh, I’ve gotten 

some horrorary - I’m en honomry entim you know, frcrm 

theFustArmy. Idon’tevar-am’teventehyouexactiy 

how many honorary military, you know, titles I have. 

Q SMhingsofthataature. 

A mgs of that natum 

Q Okay. I’m going to ask you soxrx questions now 

~~~l~~n~~~~‘~~~~~f~ 

years begimhg in 1995. 

Divmificd Rworting Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 
ln m2027 

- 

Mlllti-Pam= TM Mav21 1WR 

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-- __. __-_ “, - ““‘-~- 

----- 4 -6- ----J --9 ---- 

Page 25 Page 2 

1 have a telephone them? 1 A* 

2 A Sure. 2 Q I’m sorry. I’m just going to ask you to give us 

3 Q Do you have an office there? 3 the number before you changed it for tww. 

4 A Sum. 4 A Yeah,Istill remember that. _ 

5 Q Do you go to the office regularly? 5 Q All right That’s your home telephone number? 

6 A &me&nesI’llgocvery&yandsome&msIwon’t 6 A Home telephone number. 

7 go for weeks. Q Okay. And just so our record is armplete, what i 

8 Q Where is your office located? 

9 

o York, 42nd and Lexington, the Channon Building. 

: yourcUxn~ 

A 122 East 42ad Street. If you’re familiar with New 9 A That’s an unlisted number. 

10 Q Okay. And when did you change that, that number to 

1 Q Okay. And do you have a secretary there? 11 the unlisted number? 

2 A Idohaveasxmtary. 12 A I’dsaymaybetwo,threemonthsago3 Q Do you also have like an answering machine or a 13 Q Okay. 

4 voice mail? 14 A - because it had gotten impossible. 

5 A Yes, I have that, too. 15 Q Okay. Now, am you familiar with any phone number, 

6 Q What is the telephone number them? l6m 

7 A 212-mydimctdialnumberis~1 17 A I8 dou’t know tk switchboard nutuber, but that’s tk number I - 

9 Q tiri&L- :: z _ Not offhand. 

0 A- 20 Q Ifwnhavcmcordstbatshowtbatisa@onenumbar 

1 Q --r_ That’s the g& number? 21 in your name, does that make any sense to you? 

2 A No, that’s my d&et dial number. I don’t even 22 A A number in my name. 

3 know the switchboard number anymore. I rarely ever use it. 23 Q Yes. 

4 Q Okay. Do you akzo use a nnmber~ 24 A There’s another Walter Kaye in New Yorlt, by the 

5 A It’s not familiar to me, UkXs it’s our fax 25 way, exact same name, exact spelling. 

Page 26 Page 28 

1 umbcc. But I don’t know. I don’t know. I laiow I have a fax 1 What’s the number? w 

2 number. 2 Q - Have you ever used that telcpbonr 

3 Q wea it has the Same thme-digit pref~,_- 3 number? 

4 A Yeah 4 

as the number. So you know of no other 

A I don’t remember ever using it. 

5 Q- 5 

6 direct telephone lines other than m 

Q Would there be another number in 1995 that you 

6 would have usen 

7 A Right. 7 A Totbcbcstofmymanory,theanswerisno,butI’m 

8 Q Can you find out for us whether-is a fax 8 not 100 percent sum. 

9 number? 9 Q That’s not a - 

0 A Sure. You want me to call or - 10 A Was the number listed in my name? 

1 Q I’ll write that down for you. Not at this moment, 11 Q Ow records show that it is. 

2 maybe on a break - 12 A At the same address? 

3 A Okay. 13 

4 Q - if it possible for you to do that. 

Q Well, I don’t know that. But_’ 

14 A * maybe OUT switchboard number. 

5 A Sure. Although my secMaty’s not in today, but 15 Q Can you find that out, too? 

6 I’lltrytotraekherdown. 

7 Q Okay. All right. Are 

8 that you use besides &Fanybusinessphones ii i ~~;s~tn~~ryouw~t,,,, 

9 A Iusemyhomenumber. 19 Q Thank you. It’s ), - 

0 Q Okay. What is mat? 20 AL1 AII- and the reason I’m hesitating, we just 21 Q2 changed it and went to an unlisted number. 22 A- x 

- 

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3 Q Okay. 

4 A Iwasharassedsobythepmssand- 

;; Q-W 

A --_L Whatwastheotherquestionyouasked? 

5 Q Okay. 25 You want my switchboard number. 

__ x.. a.. 

Diversified Reporting Services, Inc. (202) 296-2929 

rage u - rage 28 
2028 

In re: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Page”” May 21,1998 1 

Page 25 

1 Q Well, yes, I’d like that. 

2 A Theremayhavebecn3 Q But I’m just wondering if you could fmd out also 

4 if that number you just wrote down is your switchboard 

5 number. 

5 A You want me to make the call now or wait? 

7 Q Let’sgothroughthephoucnumbuswdthcnweon 

8. take.a break, okay? 

9 A @ahead. 

0 Q Okay. Actually, I’ll ask you a bunch of background 

1 questions, and then we’ll take a break - 

2 A 

3 Q 

4 

5 use? 

6 A 

7 Q 

8 A 

9 Q 

0 you, 

1 A 

2 Q 

3 A 

Right 

- and you can do that. Thank you. 

All right. Do you have any 800 numbers that you 

In the office? sure. 

Anywhere. You do. 

Oh, I use 800 numbers tremendously. 

No, not that you use, but that someone can call 

But we have an 800 number in the office. 

what it is? 

don’t know what the 

Do you know 

Yes. rt*sl 

4 numbers that relate tCt.lGjiL 

5 0 oh. 

Page 30 

1 A You’ll have to figure that out 

2 Q AII right, wcII, we’ll also do that on the break. 

3 Can you write this number down? 

4 A Yes. You want me to get you the numbers for &LYE, 

5 right? 

6 Q Yes, but I’m going to give you a &mber and ask you 

7 to check on the telephone whether that’s the number. 

do 

3 Qz and see if that matches. 

4 A Okay. 

5 MR. WlSENBERG: It sounds Iike it WOdd. 

6 Ms. v0RTI-h Yes, it sounds like it would 

7 BY MS. WlRl’B: 

g Q Okay. Do you.have a& other homes other than your 

) home in New York? 

1 A No. 

I Q Are there any other pIaces that you stay in tht 

L metropolitan area in New York on a regular basis? 

t A No. 

I Q Do you have any relatives that you frequently stay 

; with? 

Page31 

1 A I never stay with any relatives. 

2 Q Doyoukoowanybodymthc914areabythcnameof 

3 Kaye, whose last name is Kaye? 

4 A In 914 -- 

5 Q 914 area code. 

6 A 914? 

7 Q Yes. 

8 A The reason I say that., wt lived in 914 for years. 

9 Q Okay. 

10 A Oh,thcsamcphouewhosenamcisWaltcrKaye-the 

11 crazi~_~g,helivesinWestchester. Hehasahomeu 

12 WestchesterandahomeinNewYork. 

53 Q Is that right? Do you know anybody named Heidi 

i4 IbyC? 

!5 A Never heard of that name. That’s in Westchester? 

.6 Neverheardofit. 

.7 Q WcIi, 914, which could be Rockland County, I guess, 

.8 as well. 

.9 A Oh, yeah. Excuse me. I apologize. It goes all 

!o the way Upstate? 

!I Q It does, both sides of tk river. 

!2 Are you familiar at all with any phone number,~ 

!3_ 

!4 A I’ve new heard of that either. You want me to 

!S write that down, too? 

1 

2 

3 

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A 914- 

Q-QIA_ 

A Never heard of that. 

Q Okay. 

A But I imagine you people can fmd that out very 

easily, in wfiose xtarne it’s rcgG&ai But I never he& of 

thosenumhers. I’mtible. Ihardiy remember my 0wLt 

number. 

Q Do you know the other WaItor Kaye? 

A Ihavemethimonceortwice. 

Q WhatdoesheA What happened was - excuse me. 

Q I’m sorry, go ahead. 

A Whathappenedwas,IgetacaIlfromthisguyom 

day. He says, “Am you Walta Kaye?” I said, “I’m Walta 

Kayc.” He said, “I’m Walter &ye, too.” I said, “Oh, that’s 

very niict.” Ho says, “I’m in the finance business.” He 

says, “I know all about you You’re in the insurance 

business.” 

York and also in Westchester. 

Andhesaid-andthat’sthcwaywebecame 

friendly - not friendly. I never have seen him socially, 

butthat’swbmhtoldmethathehadanapartmartinNcw 

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Diversified Retorting Scrviccs, Inc. (2021296-292~ 
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1 Q DoyoukuowiftheLcwinskyfamilyknowstbeother 1 A Wheawasthc-‘no,Ididn’ttvenknowthemya. I 

2 Walter Kaye? 2 didn’t get to know anybody till ‘93. 

3 A I don’t know. 3 Q Okay. So for the ‘96 election then. 

4 Q okay. 4 A Yeah 

5 A I don’t know. 5 Q Okay. So you just a moment ago that you had me 

6 Q Have you ever met the other Walter Kaye f-to- 6 the Clintons? 

7 face? 7 A Yes, I know the Clintons. 

8 A Yes. Ieithermethimonceor twice. I don’t 8 Q Allright. Andwhendidyoumeetthzm? 

9 thinkwecva-wemayhavewentoutoncesocialiy,Idon’t 9 A Again, you know, all approximations, you know. ?bc 

0 remember. 10 best of my memory, right? I imagine I met them ‘93, ‘94, al 

1 BY MR. WISENBERG: 11 theendof’93. Lct’sstqhowdidI-Ishouldmmember 

2 Q But you don’t know a Heidi Kaye? 12 that vividly, I suppose. Certainly it was ‘93 or ‘94. 

3 A Newer heard of her, no. 13 Q Okay. And where didyoumeetthem? 

4 Q And no one that you know - weII, you don’t have 14 A NowletmescewhathappencxL I’mtryingtothinlc 

s any numbers listed in the name of Heidi Kaye. 15 howImettbemthcf,rsttime. Iusedtokuowthesethings 

6 A When you say 1 don’t have any numbers? ~%MT heard 16 at my fingertips. 

7 ofher. 17 I’ll tell you what happened I was going through 

8 Q Okay. 18 very, very difficult emotional period. I had suffered a 

9 A I don’t know who she is. 19 heartattack,andtbeysoldtbcbusincssrmdIwaspusbedout 

D Q AI.Iright. 20 right away. A very emotional th&, you know. You start a 

1 A Havetheybecncha@gtheirphonestomynumber7 21 business from scmtch, and I don’t want to brag, but we did 

2 (Laughter.) 22 have a very nice business. And I was in bad shape. 

3 Q That’s a mat&r for the New York District Attoroey. 23 And one day I went to a fundraiser, nothing to da 

0 A I apologize. I’m sorry. 24 with the President and Mrs. Clinton. It’s a hard story t 

25 believe,butIremcmberthat. lhismanwasnumingforthc 

Page 34 Page 31 

I BY MS. WIRTB 1 mayor of Louisville, Kentucky, and - let’s see if I remembu 

z Q All right. I’m going to switch to a different 2 hisname-Sloane. Andwewerefrieudswithacouplewho 

1 subject for a moment. Are you active in politics in any way? 3 invitedustothcirhomcto-Idon’tlcnowifyouknowabou 

I A Yes, I am. 4 these things, but, you know, they always have these co&tail 

i Q Okay. And can you tell the grand jury basically 5 parties and things, and you make a contribution. 

i what your activities in politics have been over the years? 6 And I went to this party and I gave $500, never 

I A Well, I was never active in politics until I became 7 &inking aoything mom about it. That was probably in ‘93. 

I involved with the Democratic Natioual Committee. And, of 

P course,tbeamountofmoneyI~v~theygavemethisgreat 

8 Andabouttwoorthreeweekslater,I’mhavingbrcaldaQata 

9 hotclinNcwYork,andthisyoungwoman CoIIKStlpbrIlcMd 

b title of “managing trustee.” 10 says to me, “Aren’t you Walter KayeF I said “I’m Walter 

Q Andwhenwasthat? 11 Kaye.” Sk said to me, “You know, I’d like to talk ‘to you.” 

1 A Again, you know, my - I would say ‘93, ‘94. 12 I said, “If you’re looking for money, I’ve givea it away for 

I Q Okay. And you said you’ve given a large amount of 13 the whole year. I’m involved with a lot of charities.” 

I moueytotheDemoeraticNationalCommittee? lsthattrue? 14 She said, “No, I want to talk to you about becoming 

i A That's true. 15 active in poIitics.” I said, “I want to tell you, if &e’s 

i Q Approximately how much have you given? 16 anything I’m not intemsted in it’s politics. Just leave ~llt 

, A Well, I never knew, but according to the papers, I 17 alone.“ 

I gave about $300,900. 18 So she says, “Can’t you be polite and listen?” So 

1 Q Does that sound accurate to you? 19 sbe said, “I would like you to meet David Wilhelm,” who at 

1 A That SoIds abOUtarZCUrSte. 20 thattimcwaschaizmanoftkDcmccraucParty. Idon’tknow 

I Q Okay. And have you contributed to any particular 21 if you remember that. I f@ to myself, you know, I’ve 

2 campaigns? 22 got plenty of time, you know. I’m not that busy. 

3 A I remember giving a check, was it CIinton-Gore or 23 So I said, “I’ll tell you what. If David Wilhelm 

o something? But I don’t remember the amount. 24 wil)cometoseeme,Iwouldbehappytotalktohint” 

5 Q And this is for the ‘92 election? 25 said, “I know what’s going to happen” - because I’ve bcza ir 
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thesuvicebusiness my whole life. You don’t really meet 

the boss unless you -- you know, you can spend a lot of 

money. I said, “But I’m sure that Mr. Wilhelm will - you 

know, w+ll cancel the night before.” She said, -Absolutely 

n0t” 

And, of course, that’s what happened Wilhelm 

canceled, and they sent up somebody ctsC, a young woman - 

Ilmnot even - I don’t even.mally.mmembc.~ her name, Kathy 

something-iindshesuutstogiveme,youknow,thcrrasons 

why I should become active in politics - or make a 

contribution, excuse me, to the Democratic National 

commirtee. 

So I remember what I told her. I said, “Listen, 

I’m an excitemmit nut. I like excitement. You offer me some 

exciting times, I will give you a cornriiution.” 

And what do you think happeps? She said, “I’ll 

tell you what” She said, “If you like excitement, Mrs. 

Clinton is speaking at the Mayflower Ho&T - was it the 

Mayflower? 04-- “to the Womm’s L,ca&hip Fcmm. Why 

don’t you corrme as our guest?” 

You know, this is at the height of every&&g. 

An4tom,~itwarav~excitingthingtomettthe 

Resident’s wife, you know. 

So I go down to the Mayflower Hotel, and they 

XaIly set me up. I mean, they’tz working 011 me, you know. 

Page38 

1 (Laughter.) 

2 This is so that I can tell you just exactly what 

3 happened I’m not out of bounds or anything right? 

4 Q Okay. 

5 A I’m going to tell you what I think of this. And as 

6 soonas~gettbcre,~~ow,boy,~‘n:~yworkingon 

7 me. They put me in the fmt row for the lecture, and it’! 

8 the Women’s Iz&er&ip Forum, and very i&ligcnt people, 

9 you know, bank presidents, college presidents, attorneys 

o judges. And I become intrigued with the thing, and they 

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asked some terrific questions. 

Atthattimetheyweretalkingaboutthehealth 

program, and I searted to enjoy it. And then at about lo:30 

IgoouttogetacupofcofRx,andoneofthcpeoplefrom 

the Demazatic Party, a young lady, says, “Mr. Kaye, we’d 

like lo invite you to meet Mrs. Clinton.” Mrs. Cl&on, boy, 

that’s really some&& And I said, “No, I really don’t” - 

she said, “Don’t be sitly. You’re hem. Why don’t you meet 

mebackhcnat 11:30? We’~~you~k~~~. 

Clinton.” 

So I go. And, again, I’m teIIing you - I 

suppose - I don’t know if you people - I never saw this 

before. You lmow, the dogs sniffmg out tbc placc, the 

secret service all over the place. You know, sht hadn’t 

arrivalyet. Andtbetemusthavebeen-Idua’tknow-20, 

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25 people in this room. 

Page 39 

We went to a private suite at the Mayflower, and 

sure enough, she carat in, and I’m very, very excited you 

Imow, and we chatted for a minute, and I was reaEy 

overwhefmed. I’m telling you tk truth. 

~d~w~I~~in~~l~~w~do 

youthinktbeydo? ‘Ibcyscatmcathertablc. I’mtelling 

you. They should be in the insurance business. 

(La@=) 

Don’t laugh, because I got too much pain. And, 

boy, I love it. I’m telling you the tru* you know. I 

kardberspeak. Iwasvuyimpreased Nevalcokedata 

note, you know, and very interesting. And hue I’m sitting 

right at the same table with her. 

So I say goodbye to her, you know, and we start 

taUng,youknow,andIsupposcyoumali.xethatit’seasy 

for me to make conversation. That’s my business, really. 

And right after the luncheon, David Wilhelm 

appearedunthcscene. Heteokmeupstaim,andIgavehima 

contributicm. IbecameamanagingtrustceoftheDemccratic 

Party_ Tha.twasmyfvstckck,Irunembcrtkat. Iden’t 

remember exactly. 

But I’ll tell you what really was tlz clincher. On 

saturdarrnorningIgetacaflf~~~reHoust-Idon*t 

~~who-~you~,~sisa~e~at~ 

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Page a. 

signed the peace treaty between Arafat, Rabin, and the 

President. Remamber,kbroughttbcmalltogeth& And1 

rcmmbcrthatbtcaustIgotapi~ofrtrafScptesnbaof 

‘93. 

And they said, “Mr. Kaye, we would like you to 

attend” - you know, it’s beyond me, you know, And I got to 

be at the White House 8:00,9:00, and, naturally, I go. And 

I just can’t believe it. I’m telling you, I get goosebumps 

as I tell you, although I’ve had such aggravation with this. 

Igodownandyouwalkonthe~dsoftbtWhitt 

House, tht flags are flying, the Marine Corps Band is 

playing htlieopters all over - you know, very, very 

exciting. Ihappentobeavefy,~patrioticguy. Ifacl 

thegrta~thingthathap~to~warI~vtinthis 

country. I just love it 

And it must be a couple of thousand people, and tk 

~~~~~~OW,Y~~~~~~~~ 

around in their garb, you know. Very, very exciting. 

But I’m nothing. So they sit me way out in the 

bleachers. I couldn’t hear anything. I see Mrs. Clinton 

there and the President, naturally, but I can’t get close + 

them. 

Andthcn-Ihadaterrifictimetlxzre. I’mgoing 

totcllyoutbctruth. Andthmthatwastkbegirmiagofmy 

experiences with them. 

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n re: Grand Jury Proceedings Mav 21.1998 

Page 41 

1 Q Okay. And did you eventually develop a persond 

2 relationship with members of the First Family? 

3 A Isuredid. 

4 Q Okay. And could you &scribe your relationship for 

s the grand jury with the First Family? 

6 A what do youmtan? 

7 Q In term of, you know, just like you would describe 

8 your lelationship with anything other pason. You know, how 

9 often you see them, are you pCrSOIlal friends? 

0 A Ididn’t-Imean,again1 Q Who are you ClOSC to? That Sort Of thing. 

2 A Imean,youknow,aspartoftheDNC,I’dbe 

3 invited to all the DNC functions. I got to know a lot of 

4 people at the White House. I would go there. 

5 Q Okay, we’ll get into that in a moment. 

6 A Okay. 

7 Q But in terms of the First Family, the members of 

8 t.& First Family, how would you desaibe your relationship? 

9 AR you persmal friends at the Fust Lady and the President? 

0 A I would say more so Mrs. Clinton. 

1 Q Okay. 

2 A But I would never dare pick up the phone and call 

3 the President, whereas, you know, I’ve called Mrs. Clinton a 

4 number of times. 

5 Q Okay. And she returns your caIIs? 

Page 42 

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insurancccompanycalM~r’-which 

1 A shCretumStkCdk. 

2 Q Okay. And you see her from time to time? 

3 A Not recently, but I have - yes, we’ve seen her 

4 fromtimetotinx 

5 Q And you’ve been to the White House on a number of 

6 occasions? 

I A I have been to the White House, yes, many times. 

8 Q Okay. And you know their daughter? Have you met 

9 their daughter? _ 

D A I knOwchdSCa,yCdL 

1 Q Okay. 

2 A Nice kid, by the way. 

3 Q Okay. And who else do you know at the White House? 

4 A Oh, God, I know a lot of people there. I know Ann 

5 McCoy. 

6 Q Who is Ano McCoy? 

7 A Ann McCoy, when I really got to meet her she wa! 

B with the Visitors Office, Visitors Bureau -- or Visitors 

9 office. ImetDebiSchiff,ImetBettyCurrie. Letmeset 

D whoelse. MaggieWilliams,whamIhaven’tseeninyears. 

1 Q Do you know Nancy Hernreich? 

2 A Yeah,I’veme%NancyHemreich,butneverbeenout 

3 with her socially. I’ve shaken her hand and - 

4 Q Have you been out socially with Betty Currie? 

5 A Yes. 

pagte 

isoneofthegreat success stories of this country. 

AndIwasintriguedbythat. HereI’minthc 

insurance business. We’ve never done business with them. 

And that was really, you know - I think I saw hcl 

onceafterthat,andIaskedifshewasstillseeinghimend 

what kind of guy be was. I don’t rememberwbatsktoldme 

butsbetoldmebewasaveryintenzstingman. l’beguy’sa 

genius, you know. 

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Q DoesskmakecaUstoyou,though? I-Jassbemadc 

caIIs ~LJ you ever? 

A I wouldn’t say she would make caUs to I% 

Q Have you evex discussed Monica Ixwin&y with kx? 

A To the best of my memory, 9 don’t think so, but I 

don’t remember. 

Q Okay. How about John Podesta? 

A Nevermethim. Imayhavemethimjusttoshake 

his band. I really don’t even know his nanie except what I 

sceinthepaper. Wasn’thethedeputychiefofstaffor 

something or - 

h4R. WISENBERG: That’s con&t. 

THE m: Mm&mm, that’s what I read i~?‘he 

Times. 

BY Ms. WIRTI-I: 

Q What about Karen Abramson? 

A KaxenAbramson. 

Page 4. 

Okay. And Debi Schiff! 

Yes. 

Ann McCoy? 

Yes. 

And Maggie Williams? 

Maggie Williams, I would say yes. 

BY MR. WlSENBERG: 

Marsha Scott? 

Marsha Scott? Never was out with her socially. 

You know her, though? 

I just really met just -- it’s interesting. 1 

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Divcrsificd Reporting Services, Inc. (202) 296-2929 
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In re: Grand Jury Proceedings 

page4 

1 Q Do you know her? 

2 A She’s not on top of my list. At the White House‘ 

3 Q Yes. 

4 A Km Abramson. I don’t remember - 

5 Q ~you~ow~~~~ WbO?ZDitbZhtClll 

6 Rogram at the White House for a time? 

7 A Oh, now you refreshed my memory, right. I don 

8.~~ifIcVCrmctha,IwrotttobaOrcalltdhcrOr 

9 what. 

0 Q Okay. 

I A That’s right, she was the name, righ& right See, 

2 it’s a good thing you reftesbed my memory. 

3 Q What about Lisa Caputo, do you remember - 

4 A I know Lisa Caputo. 

5 Q whoiS&? 

6 A Whoisshe? 

7 Q Yes. 

8 A WhenImethershewastheFirstLady’spress 

9 offker, I think. 

0 Q Okay. Have you ever given any personal gifts to 

1 members of the First Family, not, you know, political 

2 contributions in any way, shape, or form, but just perso& 

sgifts? 

4 A YOUmean,likeatietothe~SidentOrascarf 

5 for Mrs. Clinton? 

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! 

Q Yes, or money. 

Page 41 

A Never gave any money. But we’ve given gifts to the 

- sum. I know my wife sends them Christmas present! 

Q It was reported in the press recently that you gave 

a gift of stock, I think, to Cbelsea Clinton; is that 

correct? 

A &Ca-COh. 

Q Okay. 

A Incidentally, before I did that, I checked with the 

White House, and they said they’re going to check with their 

counsel. They came back and told me it’s perfectly okay. 

ThereasonIliketogivestocktoyoungkidswas, 

they get the dividend every three months, you know. I’m a 

great believer in common stocks. 

Q Whenisthelasttimeyou’vebeentothe%%.ite 

House? 

A Oh, God, I haven’t been there in a long time. Evz 

since this thing broke, I decided I didn’t want to go near 

tlxzre or - 

Q Okay. 

A So it must be four, five months now. 

Q And that was your own decision? 

A That was my own deCi!siOIi, yeah. 

Q Why do you feel that way? 

A I don’t know. I just didn’t want to have any 

PaneTM Mav 21.1998 

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Page 47 

conversation with them I was shocked about the whole thing, 

you know, and I just didn’t want to get into conversati ol 

with them, just as a - you know, my gut reaction. 

Q Have you any had any contact since the Monica 

&wins@ incident became public in late January - I think 

fanuary X,1998 - have you had any telephone contact with 

anybody from the White House? 

A About Monica Lewinsky? 

Q Any tekphone contact at au. Let’s start there. 

A Yeah. I’ve spoken with Debi Schiff, Ann McCoy. 

TheycallmetofindouthowIam. Youknow,theywantto 

knowwhyInevucor~downaxymor~. AndIjustdcci&d,you 

know, it wasn’t for me anymore. 

Q HasthsubjectofMonicaLewin&ycomeupinany 

of those conversations? 

A I really don’t remember. 

Q OtherthanAnnMcCoyarrdDebiSchiff,haveyou 

spo~toanybodyelstattEw:~tcHo~Sinoeth:Monica 

Lewinslq affair becanx public? And by that I mean - 

A IcalledBettyCutrieoncetofmdouthowsheis. 

Idon’tknowifIspoketoherorherhusband. 

Q Didyoucalllxzrathome? 

A Icalledherathome. 

Q Did you discuss Monica Lewinsky during that 

5 ~n~ati~? 

page* 

1 A No. Not to the best of my memory, now. I don’t 

2 want to say no emphatically. It’s just i&c this Abramson 

3 woman you just mentioned. You know, my memory - 

4 Q You don’t remember whether you spoke to Betty 

5 Currie or her husband when you - 

5 A About Monica Lewinsky? 

7 Q Well, you said, “I don’t know who I spoke to. I 

3 called Betty Currie, but I don’t mIneIXiberwhoIspokcto.” 

9 A I don’t remember. I mmember defiitely speakiq 

) to him. I don’t rememberifIspoketoherornot_ 

Q Okay. Hassbeevercalkdyou,Bettyeurric;sinoe 

this happened, since this m public? 

A Hasshtevercalkdme? No. 

Q What about Bruce Lindsey? 

A Bruce Lindsey called me once. He called me ri& 

afterthe-IncvaraiUyknewhim,bythcway. OrI’dmet 

~-I~~~‘t~y-~I~p~I~~ Imethim 

at a mupk of parties. 

~~~~~~~~~~~gb~~. He 

said, “Hey, Walter, I want to talk to you about Monica 

I.mvinsky.” So I said, “What about?” He said, “‘Just t 

minute.” He came back, he said, “Listen, I have to tak 

anothzreall.” Henexrcalledmeback. I 

Q Okay. Andyourxvercalledhim back. 

A Nevercalledhimback 

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Diversified Rc~orting Scrviccs, Inc. (202) 296-2929 
2033 

n re: md Jury Proceedings Multi-PaecM May 21. 1998 

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Q Okay. Do you remember wlzr~ that was, 

approximately? 

A No. f would be sometime after - probably right in 

the excitement of - you know, when it just happened but I’n 

not sure, I’m not sum. 

Q Okay. Let’s talk about the I&win&y family for a 

little while. Which member of the family - and I’m 

inchrding Monica, krm5tber Marcia, &bra f;Incrmm, any o 

their spouses, ex&ding Monica - who did you meet frrst of 

the family? 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

I think it was Marcia. 

Marcia Lewis? 

Ye& 

Whemdidyoumeethtr? 

ImetherinCalifornia 

Do you have a home out there? 

DoJhaveahomethere? 

Yes. 

No. 

Do you frequently - 

We have only one home. 

Oh, okay, You i%qGntly visit out there, though? 

WeusedtowhenIwasactiveintlxzbusiness. WC 

had an ofrice out there. 

Q ISee. 

Page SC 

1 A But 1 rarefy g0 thf2-e IIOW. 

2 Q So how did you me& Marcia? W&o intx&aced ybu? 

3 A A man by the name of Joseph Sinay, S-i-n-a-y. 

4 Q Andwhoishel 

5 A He’s a friend of mine who was a client, you know 

6 and we became friendly, you know, typical of our business. 

7 And I don’t know the exact circumstances that he introduced 

8 mcto~ia,butbe’stheonewhointroducedmtoha. 

9 Q Do you remember when that was? 

0 A No. I want to say off the top of my head, maybe 

1 IO, 12 years ago. I don’t know. I really can’t remembe: 

2 that. 

3 Q Okay. And was that in the Beverly Hills/Los 

4 Angeles area? 

5 A Yeah. 

6 Q Okay. Andwh5ciidyoumeet nextafter Marcii? Did 

7 you meet Monica, Debra, anybody else? 

8 A 1 didn’t meef Monica until when she arrived in 

9 Washington I met Debra next. 

0 Q Okay. And where did you meet her-7 

I A It’s also an interesting story. Joe Sinay called 

2 ~~&y~~ll~~M~ia~~d~~~ 

3 goi~~~~of~o~M~~~~~~~ 

4 York, AndmywifeandIhadbeenpatronsformany,many 

6 years, and he said, ‘$1 know you’re going to be there, 

1 

rl 

1 

1 

1 

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1 Walter.” And be said, “I was wondering if Marcia Dzwis and 

2 her sister”’ - I didn’t eycIl know Marcia too well at that 

3 time. I nxUy, agaiq don’t remember. 

4 He says, “You think they could join you for 

s dinner?” I said “Listen, we have a full table. We just 

6 can‘t do it.” He said, “Can’t y5u invite them up for a drink 

7 at interzni~iao?” So, you know, ciient., you know, and - 50 

8 ~invirai~up,andthat’owbacIm~f)cbraF~tir9 firsttime. 

IO Q Okay. And how long after you met Marcia did you 

11 meetDebra? Soonafteroralongtimeori2 A It’s hard for me to say, 

.3 Q h the vicinity of lo years ago, we’re talking? 

14 A God, it’s just very difficult for me to pin down 

!S the time. What’s your question again? Give me - 

.6 Q We& you said you met Marcia, you think maybe, 

.7 !xxn&iag like 10 years ago. Was Debra around that time or 

.8 later? 

9 A we!& 1 didn’t meet her Or@&iy till I saw them 

!O in New York. So that bad to be years later. 

!I Q It Was years after you met Marcia? 

!2 A Yeah. How many? I don’t remember. 

!3 Q Okay. Can you tell the grand jury what your 

!4 ~~p~~M~~~~~ov~~~_ Wae 

!s you friends tight away, not right away? 

Page 52 

1 A Yeah, We became f&n&y &!‘tt away. 

z Q Didyouseeherfromtimerotime? Shewasliving 

3 in Los Angeles at that time? 

4 A 1 never really saw her -- maybe take fier out to 

5 dinner once in a while, but not on a regular basis or 

6 anything like that 

7 Q Andtherecameatixne-youbrougbtsornedocmnents 

8 heretoday, Therecameatimewbenyouinvestedina 

9 magazine tit Marcia and Debra started, right? 

0 A That’s right. By that time I bad met Debra 

I Q Okay. And that magazine was called the Beverly 

2 Hills Magazine? 

3 A WhatytXUwaSthat? 

4 Q Well, these two exhibits, WK-IO and.WK-11, have 

5 dates. 

6 WLWISENBERG: LctmcsaytbatwK-lIbas--which 

7 % Volume 1, No. 2, says, “Hillary’s InauguraI Bali 

8 Makeover.” So that would at least indicate - 

9 THEwlTNES% ~‘s~~~~~rn~~. 

0 MS. WORTH: Fur tk xcord, not on the cows 

iI MR. WISENBERG: ti page 1 it says, “~~~ 

i2 1992.” That’s ‘#K-I I a Copyright ‘92, but the story is 

r3 ‘%iHary’s InaugUra Bail Makeover.’ So t&t wotlfd at kast 

14 implythatthepreSidenthadbeeneleeted- 

!S THEwlTNJzss: Thefvstternr* 

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MR. WISENBERG: - the first term. 

BY MS. WXRTH: 

Q And, in fact, on WK-11, which is Volume I, No. 2, 

it looks like page 3, there’s a page entitled, “Message to 

the Editors.” ‘Ibat’s a picture of Marcia Lewis and Debra 

Finerman, correct? 

A Right 

Q Okay. So, anyway, you invested in this.magazine 

and you brought d ocuments which indicated that you inv& 

530,000 in that magadne? 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Right. 

Was that a loan or an investment? 

No, that was an investment. 

Okay. 

THE FOREPERSON: Ms. Wii it’s time for a break. 

Ms.wJRlH: sure. 

BY MS. WIRm 

Can you check those phone numbers for us? 

Sure. 

We’re going to take a break and - 

There’s only one thing I want to tell yoy that my 

_ secretq is not in today. I’ll try to reach her. 

3 Q We’ll try. Anybody else that - 

4 A Is there a phone booth outside? 

5 Q Yes. There’s a phone in the hallway. 

Page 51 

Page 54 

1 A You want me to walk out and do it now? 

2 Q Yes 

3 MR WISENBERG: we’ll WIIE Et YOU when W&C ltad~ 

4 toStart. 

5 BY MS. WIRTH: 

6 Q We’ll come get you when we’re ready. 

7 A In other words, you don’t want me to come back 

8 automatically. 

9 Q 

0 

1 

2 

3 

4 

Right. We’ll come and get you. 

MR. WISENBERG: Thank you, Mr. Kaye. 

THE wn?+E%s: You’re welcome. 

(A brief recess was taken.) 

(Witness excused. Witness recalled.) 

MR WISENBERG: Madam Foqersoq do we have a 

5 quorum? 

6 THE FOREPERSON: Yes, we do. 

7 MR. WISENBERG: Are there any authorized human 

8 beings in the grand jury room 

9 THE FOREPERSON: ‘flere are no unauti.~orimi human or 

o even non-human beings in the jury room. 

1 MR. WISENBERG: Thank you. 

2 THE FoREPERsON: Mr. Kaye, you’rt still under oath. 

3 THEwrmEss: Yes. 

4 I just want to report back to you about the 

5 numbers. The urnher was a former switchboard numbu 

1 ofours. 

2 BY Us. UTRTH: 

May 21,1998 

Page 55 

3 Q Andwbenyousay”ofours,“youmeanKayeInss;r 

4 LP? 

5 A Kaye Insurance, yeah 

6 Q Allright 

7 A And the-is our fax number. 

8 Q Okay. W’h you say “our,” that’s the business fax 

9 number? 

0 A Yeah, again, the business fax number. 

1 Q. AU right Do you have any knowledge as to when 

2 that switchboard number - 

3 A No. I could find out for you 

4 Q -wasineffector5 A BecauseIdon’t remember dates. 

6 Q Okay. But it’s been within the past few years that 

7 it’s been an active number. 

8 A Youmeanthejlll)ortheotherone? 

9 Q No,mthat’s been used till fairly - 

D A Until we went to this new number, which I don’t 

1 even remember how long ago it is. 

2 Q Isitwithinthelastyeaqtheswitch? 

3 A Probably more than a year. ‘Ike’s no problem if I 

4 get the off& manager to find out. 

5 Q Okay. 

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number. 

Q Okay,al.lright. Ithinkwhenwebrokewewere 

talking about the Beverly Hills Magazine, correct? 

ARight 

Q And you brought with you - one of the document 

youbroughtwitbyouisacopyofacbeck. AndtbisisGram 

Jury Exhibit wrc-4 that I’m going to show you for a mament, 

right? 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

date. 

A 

Q 

A 

YeS. 

And that reflects a $30,000 contribution - 

Investment. 

-investment,excusemeWhat’s the date on that check? 

-totbeEjeverlyHillsMa@ne. Youwnreadtk 

Whatisit? 

Yeah, ‘93, April 21, ‘93. 

April 21st of 1993. 

Yeah. 7hatwastlEi.n vestmentImadeinti 

magazine. 

Q And you were also a minority sharehoMer in tk 

magazine. Is that true? 

A YOUthhkIhoW? WhateverIWaSthere. 

Q Pardonme? I 

A Yeah, I was a minority stockholder. I 

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1 magazine? 

2 A Ihadgottentoknowtbem,andthey-Ijust 

3 wanted to be very nice. 

4 Q Okay. And w&n you say “km,” you mean the two 

s sisters, Marcia and Debra? 

5 A Yeah, more so Debra. 

7 Q MorcsoDetm Oftkhvosista,youwerecioser 

3 to her than you were to Marcia. 

;r A Yes. 

1 Q All right. Tell us about your relationship with 

I Monica Lewinsky. whxl do you rememk fvst meeting her? 

z A Iremembermeetingber,Ithink,aftershehad 

1 gxaduated from cokge. So, I don’t know, two, three years 

I ago, I suppose, when they moved to Washington. 

5 Q Okay. When you say Wcy,” you nxan she and her 

i mother. 

7 A She and her mother moved to Washington. 

i Q And they lived in the Watergate Apartments? 

8 A They lived in the Watergate. 

1 Q Okay. And after they moved to Washington, did you 

I ~~ona~~b~is? 

! A Not on a regular basis. I would see them once in a 

I while. 

I Q Okay. About how often? 

i A hn’tte~yOUhat. 

Q Okay. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Page 5’ 

Multi-Pagem 

A 

Q f 

f 

take 

would 

it that 

say you’re 

the investment 

100 percent 

didn’t 

right. 

pay off? 1 

BY MS. WIRl’Ik 

Q I’m going to show you Grand Jwy Exhibit w~-6 for a 

moment, which is that S Corporation Election or 

Tualinauon/Rcvoc8t doctxaalt that Mr. wisaIbag ohowcd you 

earlier, that we don’t quite know exactly what it is. But it 

reflects here under item - it looks like item - I don’t 

know - anyway, the last listed items. 

‘Ibuearethraenameslistedz MarciiLewis,Debra 

Fm, aud Walter Kaye. And number of shares, Marcia 

Lewis, 500; is that correct? 

A That’s what it Says, yC%h, 

Q Debra Finerman, 500; is that correct? 

A Right. 

Page 5s 

1 Q Okay. Can you describe your relationship for the 

2 grand jury with Monica? What was it like? 

3 A Young kid, you how, and it was really because o 

4 her mother and her aunt I even knew her. 

5 Q 

6 “Mr. 

7 A 

8 

9 Q 

10 A 

11 Q 

12 

13 Q 

14 A 

15 Q 

16 A 

Okay. How did she refer to you? Did she call you 

Kaye” or “Walter” or “Uncle Walter” or - 

Never called me Uncle Walter. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

To your face, at least 

Huh? 

To your face. 

BY Ms. WIRTH: 

To your face. 

Never called me that to my face, never. 

Okay. How did she refm to you? 

she probably call4 IIY: Walter. You know, I don’t 

Q And Walter Kaye, 50. 

A Right So I was really a minority stockholder. 

Q Allright.. Andthisdocumen t-itstatesattlx 

topit’seffectiveforth:in~ytar~April 19th 

of ‘93. 

A 1 assume that’s right. 

Q That’s what it says, okay. 

All right. Why did you invest $30,000 in this 

17 even remunber. Walter or Mr. Kaye, but not Uncle Walter. 

18 I’d be very sensitive about that. 

I9 Q Okay. Now, you’re familiar with the internship 

LO program at the White House? 

11 A Not 100 percent, but I know they have a lot of 

t2 these young interns working there. 

?3 Q Okay. And have you ECU-&~ people for j&s it! 

!4 intans iI the white I-Iousc during the Clinton Admihratb? 

!S A Yes. 

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Q And about how many people have you ~ 

you know? 

A Off the top of my head, just two. 

Q Andwhoarethey? 

A Monica Lewinsky and my grandson. 

Q Anddidyourgrandsoaalso~veajobasanintan 

in the White House during this Administration? 

A Yes. 

Q What is your grandson’s name? 

AQ Okay. And-is withA m" 

QU 

A Yes. 

Q Allright. AndwhenwasheaninternintheWhi 

House? 

A Sometime in this period. I can’t tell you exactly 

Wh. 

Q Was it during the first term of the Clinton 

A~~~ti~? 

A Ye~itw~~f~~~~~~~ 

term-yeah,Iwouldsayitwasd~ngthefusttam. Even 

now I’m not 100 percent sure. 

Q Okay. Tell the grand jury what you know about 

Monica’oapplicationtobcanintanin$r:wbitcHousc. How 

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1 did you fmt fmd out that she was interested in this? 

2 A Either she asked me or her mother asked me. 

3 Q And what did they ask you? 

4 A If it’s possible to get her a job as an intern. 

5 Q Do you know if they asked you in person or on tl 

6 tekqhme? 

7 A I can’t tell you that. I don’t remember. 

8 Q Okay. Do you recall which-one or if both of then 

9 spoke to you about it? 

0 A I can’t tell you exactly which one or both or - 

1 Q Okay. And do you mmemberwhatyourmsponsewas 

2 whzm they asked you? 

3 A My usual response is, “1’l.l try.” 

4 Q Okay. And what did you do? 

S A IwenttotheDNCtOSetifthcYcouldhelpher$et 

6 a-job. 

7 Q 

8 A 

9 Q 

0 A 

1 Q 

2 A 

Who did you speak to there? 

Jennifer Scully. 

Who is she? 

She worked for the DNC at that time. 

Do you know what her job was? 

She was just - I don’t know what their official 

3 title is, but account cxec? No, I don’t rcmmber. ‘llmzy had 

4 an awful lot of these young kids working there+ you know, 

s andQ How did you know her? 

Page 61 

A She was my contact there. How did I know her? 

mctherasaresultofthe-oh,shewastheyoungladywho 

told me that she was going to introduce me to Mrs. Clinton at 

theQ Allright. 

A ‘IhatWaSthefmtthX!Imethw. 

Q Okay. At the Women’s Forum? 

A Right, Women’s Leadership Forum. 

Q And is Jennifer Scully the person you spoke to when 

- if you spoke to anybody, when your grandson got an 

internship at the White House? 

A Probably spoke to Jennifer Scully. 

Q Who got the internship fast, Monica or your 

grandson? 

A I don’t remember. 

Q Okay. Do you remember what you said to Jennifer 

about Monica whenyou spoke to her? 

A I probably just said, “Listen, I need to get a job 

for this kid If you can help me out, I’d appreciate it” 

Q Did you speak to anybody else besides Jennifer 

sC~y,eitberintheDNCorintbcwhitt~ouseoranywhcrt 

else? 

A I may have. I don’t remember. 

Q Okay. Do you know whether you spoke to anybody at 

Page 63 

I the White House about getting Monica an internship? 

2 A I may have. I don’t remember. You know, I don’t - 

3 - I mean, there’s so many people there. 

4 Q And why would go through the DNC as opposed to ju,. 

S calling someone at the White House? 

6 A Because the power comes from the DNC. I mean, i 

7 you’re a large contributor, you know - and Jennifer Scully 

8 worked for-the DNC. 

9 Q Okay. So how many calls did you make or how many 

10 convasetions did you have about Monica 44th Jcnnifa Scully? 

11 A It’s hard to remember that. 

12 Q Okay. Do you remember - did you uhimately learn 

13 that Monica got an internship at the White House? 

14 A Yeah,sure. 

1s Q Doyou mmember how you learned? 

16 A Idon’t rememha that either. Somebody must have 

17 called to tell me, you know. Jennifer Scully could have 

18 called me or her mother or she. 

19 Q Do you remember wtren, approximately, Monica got an 

20 internship at the White House’? 

21 A I don’t remember the dates at all. 

u Q ~YW rernembe?tbeyear? Doesthesummerof19- 

13 A I could try to work it out backwards, you know, 

14 or -- 

1s Q Okay. 

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A Let’s see. He came back in, say, ‘94. I would s? 

probably somewhere around ‘95, ‘95, ‘96. 

pagt* 

Q Does the summer of 1995 sound right to you, or 

sound more or less accurate? 

A Possibly, right 1 just said ‘95. 

Q Did you meet with Monica at or about the time that 

sk was applying for this in-hip? What you rcwmmmded 

her,didyoutalktoheraboutitin~~.thatyou 

remember? 

A I don’t remember. 

Q Didyoueverlookatamsume that she had? 

A Thetruth? 

Q Yes. 

A I mean, totally truth. I really don’t remember 

that. 

Q Okay. Do you know anything about her - 

A She probably applied directly to them. I think 

that’sthepfucedure. l%atistkproadure. somtbodyjust 

called me recently. I said, “Listen, I have nothing to do 

with that.” 

Q Do you know anything, or did you know anytbing at 

that time about her educational background7 

A I just knew that she had graduated from college. 

Q Do you know which one+ or did you know which one 

back then? 

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1 A At that the 1 didn’t know, but I sina have 

2 lcamtdfrom,youknow,~-itwasupkrOrrgonor 

3something 

4 Q Did you know what kr degnx was back then? 

5 A No. I still don’t know. 

6 Q Did you know fmything about be? employment history 

7 atthattime? 

8 A No. 

9 Q !hyouwaejustznakingthis lccrnnmendation basd 

0 on your relationship with her family? 

May 21.1996 

1 

Q Okay. 

A Robably od I don’t know, but I don’t tm. 

Q Would you talk to her mother on a regular basis 

duringthatpe&d? 

I A That’s right 

2 Q All right. Do you have any knowledge as to what 

3 ~~youreffortstoget~~internshiphadonttr 

4 ulthatedezisiontohireherasanintem? 

5 A Iimagineitwas,youknow,pretty-itwasan 

6 iqnxtantcffed Iwas,youknow,givingmoncylikc-you 

7 know,Iwasgivingthemalotofmoneyand8 Q Allright. ‘IhrreameatimewhnMonicabcganto 

9 work at the White House as an hem, correct? 

D ARight. 

1 Q 

2 t.kSbCwaSWO&illgaS~in~dtbCXinpasonCnODtbC 

phone? 

4 A ~~pro~ly~~t~~d~~~ 

inawhileor1 

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A h’othermOthtrOna~ar-yOukbOW,~~ 

social event or something like th3t. 

Q Uftbchsoofthcm,MarciaS.cwis,Mticata~, 

duriqtbispcriodoftimcwhPMaicawasw~~ 

WhittRws.woulddthrof~~olLlyouontbcpbeacfm 

tiIlX!tOtim? 

A Idm’tsumto remember that. I don’t know. 

‘Q okay. 

A S~~~ketobOthOfthemorithcphont,but 

wh%kzIorighatedthecaUorQ AhighL WhenMo&agottheintxnsh&did 

anybodyhm-eitherh-orhcrfamilyexpressany 

Q Okay. You knew that she lived at the Watergate, 

right? 

A Yes. 

Q And you knew she lived with her mother? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. Doyouknowifanybody~waslivingwith 

thnatthetimc? 

A That I don’t know. 

Q Okay. Do you have any leco&xtion of ever 

visitingMonicaattbcWbiteHousewh~~sbe~anintan 

thUe? 

A my specifitiy to Visit her? 

Q Wc&whiky~utkcmaybcdoingothuthings,did 

you ever stop by and say hello to her? 

A No, I never - I didn’t know whm her office is. 

fbuznpedintokroace,I lCmemtxr, ff twice in tk Conidor, 

but - 

In the white.Housc. 

In tk White House. 

when she ~8s working there. 

Yeah. 

Okay. Doyouknowwhetixxyouhadanytelep~ 

alatactwithhcrdlhgtkpeziodskwasanill~attk 

White House? 

A I absolutely don’t remember. 

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8 A IdOn’t ranember specifically. They probably 

P called to say thanks. I don’t know. 

D Q Okay. But you don’t re&xnber specifically? 

1 A No. 

2 Q Okay. DuringtktimcthatMonicawasw&at 

3 tbcWhitcHwstasaa~~didtbesubjecteMararIrpin 

4 ~y~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

5 ~~~~p~ofM~~~8~tj~ 

I at the White House? 

2 A 

3 aunt. 

fi Q 

5 A 

5 Q 

1 A 

P Q 

) A 

Yes. Hcrmothrspokctoxncabouti~andalsotbz 

Her mothzr and Aunt Debra? 

fightDebra Finennan. 

ati 

What do you remember about those umvershms 

Ijrrst remembcrthntelling~that*~a 

1 pcmamnt-a5zdary-payingjob. Tbattbcamditiu~~aerc 

verybad,andshecouldn’tgiMtherany~nrq,& 

father wasn’t going to give her any money. 

Q when you say, ‘sh: couldn’t give ba any mmy, 

you mean htr moth? 

A Marcia, Marcia. 

Q Sowhcnyousayconditionswmbad,you~ 

financal circumstances? 

A F-ye&. hasledtobelievethat,ymh 

Q ~~u~~~~~~~~~a~~ 

paying* - 

A Yes. 

Q - for purposes of supporting hrself. 

A Yeah I rememberonceshetoldmethatstrhastc 

gctapcn=xntjob~h=rf~didn’twaatto~ 

hcranymore. 

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Q Had you ever met her father? 

A Nevamtberfatbu. Sawhimoo’Ivtbefirsttime 

a few months ago. 

Q And you’ve never met him. 

A (%king head.) 

Q So when that subject was raised and you said her 

mother - you nzmemberbcrmotbertalkingtoyouaboutthe 

factthatMouicauarkda pcrmancntjob at the White House, 

did Monica also talk to you about that? 

A I don’t remember specifically, but I’m sure sht 

did. She was really looking for a job. 

Q Whatdidyousaytobermotbawbenbcrmotkrsaid 

to you Monica seeds a pemanent job? 

A 1 Said, “I Call? hdp J’OU with t&t*’ 

Q Why did you say that? 

A Ijust-Ididn’tevenlmowhowtogoabout 

getting her a permanent job. 

Q Well,youmadecffortsonhtrbthalftogahtrthe 

internship, right? 

A YCih. 

Q Okay. Audyoucouidbavc$milsrlypickaiuptbe 

phoneandmadeacalltoanybodyA I really don’t remember doing that 

Q WeiI,letmaskyousomcthing. Goiibacktoyour 

convemationwitbMarcia,yousaidyoubaveannamnyof 

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telling her, “I can’t do anything,” right? 

A (Nodding.) 

Q Is there some reason why you said that? 

A WhensbewasgoingfrotJItk-whcnskwaskaving 

the intern’s job, right? 

Q Well, whenever the subject came up that Monica 

would like to get a permanent job at tht White House, a 

pamanait paying job, ti_tbat subject caax up and you wuc 

askd for assiam~byhamotberintbatrcgard,whatdo 

youtuDcmberaboutwhatyoutid,whatyourrcsponscwas? 

A I probably said I would try. 

Q WeIl, a moment ago you said, 1 told kr I couldn’t 

help her.” 

A That’s right And then I told her I couhin’t help. 

1dou’tknowifIcveurcaUyuied. I’mtryingtoturkmber 

whoIactuallycalle~ifanybody. 

ButI-Ithinkthataftcrshekfttheimern’s 

job, I think she did get a job, a paying job. 

Q But I’m asking you about - 

A WhichIhadnothingtodowith,bythtway. 

Q Youhadnothi.ngtodowithbxgettiqapamaoait 

job at the White House. 

A Right 

Q Is that what you’re saying? 

Afight. 

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1 Q Okay. ButwhatI’maskingyouisaboutyour I 

2 conversations with h motlxr, or convusation with her I 

3 motbawkah7motkr8skuiyoufcrhelpinguIiIlgMmic8r 

4 pem=ncntjobattbeWbiteHouse. Wbatwasyourrcspa~ 

5 huL WISENBERG It’s pa@ 9 of the chmns, Itlcvrmt 

6 tosomeof7 THE wnxss: It’s hard for me to rutxzmba, but - 

8 Idon’t remantlcralrtadyIhaclcookdoffaboutthanQd9 BY hCL WIRm 

0 Q okay. 

1 A Iremanbcrkrmotbcraskingmctottytogctkr2 - help get htr a job. That a dcfimitely remtmbcr. 

3 Q AttheWhiteHouse,whikMcmicawasanintem. 

4 A I’mnotsureifshtwasStinanmternorshebad 

s already,youknow,kftthtjobasanintan. Ican’t 

6 pinpoint7 Q 

8 A 

9 Q 

OtO1 A 

2 Q 

3 A 

4 Q 

But it was around that period of time. 

Arotmdthatperiod,yeah 

And you rememberhermctberaskingyouforhe11 

Q&right 

-gethtrapermanentjobatthcWhiteH~ 

fightAndcbyoubavcanyrxunayiftbatwasinpasma 

5 OIltklhOW? 

past. 

A I don’t remember that. 

Q Anddoyou rcmcmbawhatyctur~~was? Wasil 

positive or negative, do you renxmber? 

A Itwuldha~stillbeenpositive. Eventuallyit 

umxdxgative,butitwasn’ttbcmostimpartanttbinginmy 

life, whateur tht reason was. 

Q Iunderstand. Butdoknowwhtthcryoumackaq 

B effortsmberbebalftogetMtieaa pemmmt job at the 

P WhiteHouse? 

D A Imayhavemadeacallortwo. Idon’t-. 

1 Q You don’t nmtmbn. 

2 A Idon’t rellxmbcr. 

3 Q Yousaida momalt8gotbatatsomepointyoaeoded 

I offintumsofyourfcelingstowards5 A bh,~thinkhtcroU. 

6 Q Whodidyoucoolofftowards? 

7 A lkwhoksituation. 

B Q Meaning tk wfiok family? 

3 A (Nodding.) 

1 Qwhy3 

I A Ihadheardstorksthat,youknow,Monicahad 

2 becomevayaggxasiveintheWhiteHousc,youknow,~ 

3 just felt uxomfOrtabkwith it 

I Q Okay. WbmyousaidyoukardstaisaboutMaaica 

5 bccoming~vcintkwhi~~wilohadyoubcard 

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that from? 

Page 73 

A It may have bazn Debi Schiff or Ann McCoy, pmhablq 

more so Debi. 

Q Were those things told you in person or over the 

telephone? 

A Could have been in person or the telephone, vay 

likely. I don’t know. I don’t remember anybody calling to 

tell II& you know* Walter, sk’s beCome very aggrrssis’ 

or - 

Q But the subject came up. 

A Tk subject came up, yeah. 

Q DoyouknowifitwasbothDebiSchiffandAnn 

McCoy who told you those things? 

A I can’t tell you exactly. 

Q ButdoyouhaveamanoryofA Ido remember a rumor around that it was Sylvia 

Lieberman, if you know her name - 

Q Evelyn m? 

A EvelynLit&rman,excusem,whohadbacomvay 

unhqpywithher. Butshtncvertoldmcthat~. 

Q Evelyn never did. 

A No. 

Q Did you know Evelyn? 

A Iknowher. 

Q Have you known her from before her days at the 

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pagt 74 

White House? 

A No. 

Q Just since hzr association with the White House. 

A Right. 

Q Have you evu discussai Monica Lcwinsky with Evdyn 

Lieberman? 

A Never remember discussiq her with Monica Lavidcy. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q You’ve mentioned a couple of things. One, that 

somebody told you, cik Debi Schiff or Ann McCoy, that 

lvlonhwasvuy~vcMxmdtkwhitcHousc.ADd~ 

othuthingisthatsamdmdytoldyouEvdynL-n’t 

happy with her. 

Whatdidthey-let’stakethefirsthingfirst 

Whatdidthytellyouotherthanshe’sbeingaggressive~ 

Tellusalltfitthingsyoucan remember them telling you 

about tht problems with Monica 

A In fact, I dozl’t know who told - you know, who ii 

camefinm,butI rum&a one apnssion I ramnk, that rhc 

was staking the President. Who told me that I don’t 

remember. 

Q Did that disturb you? 

A Ithoughtthywerenuts. Imcan,~coub’t 

imagine this kid stalking the President. 

Q You thought the people telling you that were nuts. 

J - 

Page 75 

1 A No, I thought that, you know, it was just - it was 

2 just unbelievable to me. 

3 BY MS. WIRTH: 

4 Q Was that told to you in the manner of a complaint 

5 or a concern or just gossip? 

6 A I don’t lolow. 

7 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

8 Q Well,youwouldbcaperson-I’msony,didIcut 

9 you off? 

0 A No, you didn’t cut me off.. 

1 Q Would it be fair to say you would be a person ti 

2 tkWhitcHwseandpmpleintbcWhitcHmscwouldoot~t 

3 to go out of their way to alienate? Is that a fair 

4 stataneIlt? 

5 A Yeah,Iwouldsaythcytriedtobenicctome. 

6 Q You’n not only a frhdly guy, as we can tell, but 

7 you’re giving a lot of money to the party. 

8 A Right. Iwouldsaytlqweretayingtopkaseme. 

9 They wou.ldn’t want to alicxlate M. 

0 Q So was this more ahg tk liars of, “Mr. Kaye, 

1 Wahu, wz’vc sot a problun with scalxmewbomklwwyoIl’~ 

2 kind of sponsored. We’ve kind of got a probkm hze.” 

3 A They didn’t say - Irememberthat Nobodyever 

4 saidthattomatthattimc. Ilookedto runember who told 

5 me that, but - I just couldn’t believe it. This young kid, 

hF 76 

I in an unimportant job, how she could be stalking the 

2 President. 

3 Ekcausc I’ve been to the White House, you know. 

4 It’s a very secure area, you know, and - 

5 Q Howdidyoutakestalkhgtomcan? Howdidyou6 Imean7 A Stalking, when you read about these nuts that stalk 

8 sam&ody,youknow.outtokilltbanorsamhing,youknow. 

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Q okay. 

BY Ms. WIRTH: 

Q Do YOU xmfzmbuwbatyourrlzspamwas~you 

were told that? Did you say anything to the person? 

A I probably went, “Eh.” I don’t know. I don’t 

remember. I’mstillinastateofshockaboutit. Imcan, 

IQ Of tht list of possible people who could have told 

you that, who would be on that list? 

A AnyoneoftbepeoplewhowatattheWhiteti 

that I know. 

Q Tbatyoumahncd? Arcthertanynamcsatthctop 

ofthatlistwhoarethemostlike4yca&htesofpeoplewbo 

told you that? 

A (%akinghcad.) 

Q Did you ever have a conversation with Debi Schiff 

about Monica Lcwinsky? 

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In re: Grand Jurv Procccdirws Multi-Page3 May 21,1998 1 

Page 79 

1 A In other words, you’re letting me know that it was 

2 a low-paying job. 

1 A I m3y have, 1 may have. 

2 Q ‘Hha do you remember? 

3 A Just that I think Debi let me SOR of - told me 

4 that six was a vezy agpssivc young lady. I don’t know if 

5 that’s tbc exact tam, you know. You can’t hold that to me. 

6 Q But that was the sense of the conversation. 

7 A Yeah 

8. Q w&n MS_ Schiff told you, in essena,.that.Monic 

9 wasvexyaggre&vc,wasshemorcspezificthanthat? 

0 A No. 

1 Q W%atdidyoutake’aggrrssivc”tomcaa,ortamsto 

2 that effect? 

3 A A@ssivc people. For example, I don’t know if at 

4 tkttimeIkarclskwasgoi.ngallovertkplacelooking 

5 faajob. Skmttos&evayb&y. WhotoldmthatI 

6 don’tkncw. 

7 Q Looking for a job in the White House? 

8 A IntkWbiteHouse,yeah 

9 Q Wasthataftershthadleftandwasworkingatti 

Dhtagonorbcforcthat? 

1 A Before. F3ccauscbythctimcshewenttothc 

2 PaUg~Ineverspolcetober,orverymrely. Ihopedmy 

3 memorywasbct&r,butI6 Somebodydidmentiontomethat-Iremember 

5 karingtkstorythatEvelynLiebamanscatkrhomeonc 

Page 78 

day, that she was improperly attireA. I remember that. 

Q =‘you remember who you heard that from? 

A (%akinghd.) 

Q Didyoutvtrdiscussanyofthiswithkrmothu, 

Monies’s mother? 

A No. 

Q WbenyouwercehedbyMonka’smotbaifyouwould 

rssistMonicaingainga_pamaacntjobatthtWhiteHoust, 

had you heard some of these things about Monica being 

aggressive and going all over looking for a job and bein 

improperly attired? Had you hard any of those things? 

A Idon’tthinkIhadharditatthattimeyet. I 

don’t think so. Or it could be, because I really didn’t dc 

anything to get her a paying job at the White House. 

h4RwxsENBERG: can I interrupt? 

Ms.wIRlHz GoaheacL 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Butlmowingthatyouwerewhoyouwere,isit 

possible that - let me preface this by saying the job that 

1 skgotattkWhiteHouseafterherintemshipA A paying job. 

! Q - or paying job was a relatively low-level one. 

I A Idon’tevcnknow. IassumeI Q I’mprtfacingmyquestionbykttingyouknowthat 

i And do you think it’s possibk that - 

3 Q It was a low-level job. 

4 A Low-level job, excuse me. 

5 Q And I’m letting you know that as a prefact to mq 

6 next qustioa. In other words, it wasn’t a super-important 

7 job, or even an important job. 

8 ARight 

9 Q Do you think it’s possible that just em a slight 

0 intatstbyyou,evenmaykaletteroraphonecallbyyou 

1 tosomebodyattkWhiteHwseatthattimc,couldhavcbea 

2 enough, gim who you wtrt, to klp laud ha a low-paying 

3 job,intksamsznseth2Uyouhadhelpaitogetthcintm 

4 job? 

5 A Idon’tthinkso. 

6 Q Okay. 

7 A Idon’tthinkIwasevcrthatimportant. 

8 Q But your infhcnce Mpcd her get - and I’m not 

9 indicating that there’s arlythhg wrong with this. Your 

3 influcncz htlpcd htr get tht in&a job. 

I A I would say you’re 100 percent righs no question 

2 aboutthat 

3 Q Sheneverthankedyou-toyourrc&kction,she 

I ncva~youforhclpinghagethapayingjobatthc 

I WhiteHouse. 

Pagcc 

I A No. I don’t remember. That1remcmber,1had 

I nothiqtodowiththat. ?bcocxtthingIkardasborttime 

I laterthatshcwasoutofthatjob. 

I BY MS. WIRTI-k 

5 Q Allright hfr.Kaye,Ishowyoutwodocumaetht 

6 I’ve marked as - 

7 MR. WISENBERG: Hold on a second. We have a 

BtpCStiOU. 

? THE FOREPERSON: There’s a question. 

1 Ms. WIRTH: Oh, I’m Sorry. Go ahcad. 

AJUROR Sir,doyouthinkthatthcrewasauyrme 

else helping kr to get a low-paying job? 

‘IHE-: rdcm’tknow. Skmayhavemacksomc 

amtacts. Iwasn’tawartofit 

AJUROik !kncvamcntidan~toyouabaut 

it. 

THE-: No,notthatI remember. Thenext 

thing I heard, that she had gotten a paying job. But I 

CatainlyaCnr rememkr, you know, my calling 8nybody for 

baor-whoelseoouldbavtkl~ba,Idon’tknow. You 

know, sk probably had a lot of fiends thae, I don’t kauw. 

She probably made a lot of friends. 

(Gnmd Jury Exhiiit Nos. ~~-12 and ~-13 

were marked for identification.) 

I 

Paue 77 - Pam Rfl 
Q y

g 

2 Q Anyway, I’m going to show you two documents that 2 A I redly don’t remember. 

3 IW’W markaj Grand Jury Exhibia m-r.-12 and WK-13. Tbc frrst 3 Q Doyoii -ber receiving any writren 

4 ~isamanorandlrmtoyoytoWaltaKaye,anditgivesus 4 communicatiocs fmin Am McCoy Shout Monica’s job pmspats a 

s that fax number, 212-338-2296. 5 the White House? 

6 A Yeah,shesentitbyfax. 6 A Off thz top of my head, I don’t remmbcr any of 

7 Q And fm Ann McCoy, wbo you told us you know, 7 this. 

8 cmrct? 8 Q Okay. Do you know Patsy Thomasson? 

9 A sure, I ]mOW her. 9 A Iha~nxtPatsyThomassonafewtimes. Idonh 

0 Q And it says, “Re: R~SUX of Monica hwinsky,” 10 knowhtrwdl. ExcqtwlxmIthinkofit,Imayhavtoncx 

laxTect? 11 malti0ncdtoPaIsyTbonwon about getting a job for h&x& 

2 A Yeah 12 Lcwhky. 

3 Q Okay. Andtbenthere’satwo-linemessageonthisi3 Q You did What do you remember about that? 

4 manormdumthatsa~TodayIreaivedtkcaflostdmcmo 14 A JustthatImentioneditinavuyeasualwayata 

5 f&uPatsyThnasxq DeplJ.tyDiEtoroftheoEccof 1s pany,youknow,auoftkseec4&ailpartiesa~ 

6 ~residentialPersonneL” Isthatamuzt? Isthatwbatit 16 likethat. 

7says? 17 Q Andtbiswzsdur&tktixcthatMonica’smotkr 

8 A~'STi&ycah. 18 bad asked for your assistance? 

9 Q AndthenthenextIineis,“Iwillletyouknow 19 A Iwould assumeitwasSsametime_ Buti’mw 

10 immediately if1 have any fur?h iIlf&m2uion fmm Patsy’s 20 100 percent sure. 

11 of&e.” Is that correct? 21 Q Okay. DoyouhaveanyrecoUectionofanyrrspoDst 

2 ARight 22 thatMs.‘hmasxmhadatthattime? 

3 Q Okay. hdtkvx-1sisamanotoAnnMcCoyfrcnn 23 A I don’t remember her ever responding to me. 

4 Patsy Thomasson. And, by the way, this WK-12 is dated 24 Q Okay. Andyouhaveno ruemoryofeitherof~ 

5 October 12,1995; is that right? 25 document& MC-12 or 13. 

Page 82 Plge& 

1 ARight. 1 A Infact,asIlookatthese,Ineverremerhr 

2 Q And this second docurzn; WK-13. is dated 2 suing this. May have, may have. 

3 October 17,1995. It’s a man0 fhm patsy Thomasson toAM 3 ButIknmvmyxcn%arydidathoroughstarcbwh 

4 McCoy; is that coti? 4 ~gottksubpoaqandshcwcnt~cvaything,aQdrb 

5 ARight. 5 evidently didn’t come across it 

6 Q AndthedateisuxrectthatIread? 6 Q Okay. ‘Ihis mano, m-13. from Patsy to AM McCoy, 

7 A.figtrt 7 wouldyouagruthastbe&tofwhatMs_~bas 

8 Q Okay. And it’s re: Resume of Monica Lcwinsky, 8 written here is that, basically, it’s very unlikely that 

9 comt? 9 Monica Lewinsky will get a job in the White House? 

0 ARight. 10 A Absolttly right_ 

1 Q And there’s a cc to Maggie WiUiams, correct? ii Q Okay. 

2 A (-Nodding.) 12 A what’sthedateoftkktt& 

3 Q Yes? . 13 Q ktober 17, f 995; is that correct? That’s what’s 

4 A Yes. 14 writtenhere? 

5 Q Okay. Andtbmtkzhtkfollowingtext: “Thank 15 A kt&ri&t,that’Scofitcsycah 

6 youfortakingthttimetofonvardthtresume Of Monica 16 Q AndthisamxsftiandthtntheOctobu23, 

‘I Lewinsky. Thtjobsituationisvuytightwithalackof 17 1995,mmotoyouwa mCmofmmPatSy~ 

B budgets throughout&e gov emment WewiUkecpherresume 18 A I absolutely don’t remembereithtrontoftbcsc 

9 on fde and forward to appropriate agencies if openings 19 memos. 

D become available.” 20 Q Okay. Doyouevcr remember, you know, bearing fmm 

1 Did I read that right? 21 anyoncattbcWbitcHousethatthingswcre~y~aad 

2 A Yts, you did. 22 itkunlikelyMonicawillgetajobherel 

3 Q Okay. So WK-ISlet’s &that frrst That’s the u A Ihadbeardtfiafyeah 

4 memotoyoufromAnnMcCoy. 24 Q Doyou remcmberwhoyouheardthatfhnn? 

5 AR&l& 25 A IcouIdhaveharditfromAnnMcCoy. 

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May 21,1998 

Page 87 

1 Q Do you have any idea what changed Monica’s 

2 prospects at the White House so that she did get a job, a 

3 permanent job there? 

4 A That I don’t know. 

5 Q Doyouhaveanyideawhetberitwasanythingtha 

6 you did that changed the pmspects? 

7 A Absolutely not 

8 -_ Q It’s your opinionthat nothing ycudid changed hei 

9 prospects. 

0 A Ncithing. 

1 Q Okay. Because you have no memny of taking any 

2 stepstohelpher. 

3 A Ididn’tdoathing. 

4 Q Okay. 

5 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

6 Q =you IEIIXXI~~~ her, Monica, bothering you - o 

7 maybe%othaing”istoruggaiaword-callingyouattbe 

8 timetotrytogttyourhelp? 

9 A I think she did, but, again, I’m not 100 percent 

OSlUC. 

1 Q Anddoyoummem her what she said? 

2 A Thisiswhenshestartedtolookforapayingjob. 

3 Q Right 

4 A I’m surmising now, but I suppose at that time she 

s was telling me she needed a job. 

Page 86 

1 Q DoyourecaIlwhethcrornotshtoranyoneonkr 

2 behalf expressed an interest in going to the White House 

3 Social Office? 

4 A Idon’t remember that. That I don’t remember at 

s all. Infact,IwouldsayI’mprettysureshenever 

6 mentioned that to me. 

7 Q Okay. 

B BY MS. WIRTHz 

9 Q We’lI mark as G&d Jury Exhiiit - 

1 A Youknowitbotba’smeIneversawthat~ 

I Inever rememberseeingthatmemorandum. 

2 Q Bythat,youmean3 A Those two memos. 

* Q - w-12 and m-13. You’re certain of that. 

5 A httyartain. Iwon’tsayI~percent,as, 

5 ag*1telly0yyouknow1 Q Arethesethekindsofrecordsthatyouwouldhav 

3 kept if you had received them? 

9 A Maybe yes, maybe no. 

1 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

L Q They’re fairly perfunctory, are thzy not, in 

22 nature? 22 A okay. 

23 A Yeah. NowthatIlookatthtm,it’saslftlxzy 23 Q ButifIkncwitoffhand,I’dletyouknow. 

24 were just giving her the brush-off, you know. It wasn’t 24 A IknowIhaveacopyofthebcok. 

25 somebody that was on top of their priority list. 25 BY MS. WIRTW I 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

0 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

0 

,l 

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5 

Q And she wasn’t on the top of ycurs at that point 

either, was she? 

A I’mtryingtonznember. ?bat’sa@odqticm,if 

bytkutimcIhad&omemoresndmorrdisillusiooedwiu, 

her. See, I was embarrassed when I hwrd about Sylvia 

Lieberman, is that her name? 

Q Evelyn. 

A Evelyn-Lieberman. Bccaus~, you know, I thought it 

wxldrcikctonmc Youknow,tkkiddan’tmnknowbow 

tocamtinanddnss,youImow,and-Xthinksomcbodytold 

llXShewas wearing short skirts, you know, and - 

I suppose by that time I was, you know, losing 

in- Is that the right term? I don’t know. 

Q Evenifyoumen’tdisiIlusioatdyet,b~on 

t&etl&gsthatyouhear~ifI’mun&rstandingyou 

cormctly,youdonotmcallmaking~kindofamajor 

cfforttohclp.~haapayingjobattfr:WhittHoust, 

A Idi~‘throw~totalkto,aadIjustdidn’tQ 

it,Ididu’t I’mtryingtoruncmbcrwbyIdidn’twanttodo 

it Idon’t remember*. 

Q CuuldithavebeenrelatedtotkThxeeTeM>rs 

book? 

A Ycah,Iwasvuydisilhisioadwfrnthcmotbercame 

outwiththatbook 

Q Andwhyisthat? 

pagtc 

1 A Bcmse I just don’t think that’s what you write 

2 abou~Domingohavinganaffairor~nglikcti 

3 IthinkItoldthegrandjutyinLittleRockthat 

4 I’m som3hat iuvolved with the w and for many, many 

5 years - I just didn’t think that’s the proper thing to do. 

6 BY h& WIRTHz 

7 Q Didyoufaclthatanyiafomiation~hadimpartcd 

8 tocitlxzrMarciaorkrsisterwasintbatbook? 

9 A Aboutthe-no. 

D Q No? 

1 A Yalbmv,tmvthatyoutcftwhmyBlamtyberr,wben 

2 Ispalcetokr-wbznIsawhaonaatdinmOt~ 

3 yauktww,skwastellingmtkbo&issuchaphemmmal 

4 sucass,youkncnv,and5 BY h4R. WISENBERG: 

6 Q shtwistdlingyouthat? 

7 A Yeah Whendidshetitethebook,doy& 

B ratmnbu? AmIallowdtoaskyautlmtrrI?amt-to 

9 a&you? 

3 Q Well,itmaIlydasn’tmaaerwlztheryouareor 

1 notbecauseIdon’tknowthc answeroffhand, 

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I Q Do you have any memory whether around this time 1 in other words. 

2 that Monica was asking for a permanent job whzther that book 2 A No, I can’t pinpoint the date. 

3 had come out at that point, do you know? 3 BY Ms. W-RTH: 

4 A I can’t really tell you I just don’t remember 4 Q DoyouhaveascnsethatshewasattheWbiteHouse 

5 ttlattime. 5 workingeitherasanintemorasa penMnent employee when 

6 Q okay. 6 you heard that? 

7 A ButIsumto remembermoreaboutitwbmtbeylet 7 A we& she was either an intern or a permanent 

8 her go, and she was looking for a job. 8 employee. 

9 Q When “they,” the White House let her go? 9 Q When you heard that. 

0 A ‘Yeah. Or I didn’t know if they let her go. What I 10 A Yeah. 

1 hadheardwas,theydiscontinued-canyoupeoplehearme?- 11 Q Did she keep in contact with you during the time 

2 - that they had discontinued the office that slz was in. 1 12 d-e was working at the Offke of Legislative Affairs? Did 

3 didn’t know - it wasn’t my business, you know, and - 13 she speak to you from time to time? 

4 BY MR. WLSENBERG: 14 A Yeah, maybe once in a while. I don’t remember i.! 

5 Q Who do you think told you that? IS shespokctom-Iwouldgodowntherevcryoftcn. Iwould 

6 A I just thought the kid.was very aggressive, you 16 do a lot of entertaining in Washington, and at that time 1 

7 know. She - I just felt uncomfortable with them -her. 17 wasstillintriguedbyit,andtIqwouldjoinusson&mes 

8 Say your question again? 18 Q How did you hear that she had lost her job at thy 

9 Q You said you had heard that they discontinued the 19 White House? 

o office. Do you recalI who told you that? 20 A I’m not - I’m asmming now, okay, because I can’t 

1 A Ithinkshetoldmethat. 21 tfzllyouthat. lhateitlKzr~fromhermothaorhaaun~ 

2 Q Monica did? 22 Ican’timagiDeAMMcCOycallingroe,totellmethatMon: 

3 A Itbink,orhermotber. IfIrecall,sbehad 23 Lewinsky lost her job. 

4 something to do with the Legislative Office or something. 24 Q Okay. Do you know how soon after Monica lost kr 

5 BY MS. WlRTH: 25 job they called you? 

Page 90 Page 

1 Q Duringthetimeshewasat-itwastheOfficeof 1 A I don’t remember. 

2 Legislative Affairs? Does that sound familiar? 2 Q Did they in any way request your assistanee in 

3 A That sounds right, absolutely right 3 trying to undo the decision to fire her or transfer her? 

4 Q And I think you said earlier that your memory was 4 A I’mbyingto mmemberiftheyaskedmeifIcot 

5 that she wasn’t there very long. 5 beofhelptohertogetajob,youknow. ButifIrecal 

6 A I think that her stay there was a very short 6 again., you know, from., you know, reconsWtingtbisthin& 

7 Period. 7 itwasashorttimeafterthatthatshewenttoworkinr 

8 Q Did you ever see her there? Did you ever visit her 8 Pentagon. 

9 there? 9 Q At the time she was either fired or transferred 

0 A No. 10 from the White House, did you ever receive any calls from 1 

1 Q No? 11 or from her mother or her aunt asking you interor& on kr 

2 A Never. 12 behalf so that she wouldn’t be fmd or transferred? 

3 Q During the time that she was working at the Office 13 A I don’t remember that. I don’t remember that. 

4 of Legislative Affairs, did you hear any information or 14 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

5 feedback about how she was doing? 15 Q Let me - some of our investigators have Sony 

6 A No. Not that I remember, again, youknow. One of 16 information to the effect that during this,period when she 

7 the unimportant things was Monica Lewinsky tell@ me about 17 was transferred out, basically - 

8 herjob. :. 18 A After she left the White House. 

9 Q Did you continue to hear things like sl&s 19 Q Well, right around the time where she’s told, 

0 aggressive, she’s a stalker, during the period of time that 20 “You’re going to be let go,” from the White House, that she 

1 she was working at the Office of Legislative Affairs? 21 is making desperate efforts to stay at the White House 

2 A I can’t evem tell you exactly when they told me 22 countemct that decision, even so much as to agtwz to work 

3 that, but - 23 there voluntarily. 

4 BY MR. WISENBERG: 24 And my question to you is, do you recall her or 

5 Q You’re not even sure when you fvst found that out, 25 anyoneonherbehalfduringthistimeperiodrallitrPyOU8M 

_ -_ _ 

Page 89 - Page 92 
In rc: Grand Jury Procccdings Multi-PagcTM May 21.1998 

Page 93 

1 enhsting your aid in that effort? 1 “h”? I mJust kddmg. 

2 A Tky may have, but it’s - I doubt it. I don’t 2 

(Laughfsr.). -~------Gq 

3 know. Iknowo~ething,Ididn’tdoanything,Imean,to, 3 THE~‘~~NEs~: Ineverknewtbzrewasan”h”or 

4 you know, to help her, you know -- 4 bubula. 

5 THE FOREPERSON: May I ask a question? 5 h4R. WISENBERG: My lips are scaled. 

6 MR. WlSENBERG: Sure. 6 TEE WlTNEzjs: You a-y to be nice to somebcuiy. 

7 THE POREPERSON: I know this may require a IittIe 7 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

8 guesswork on your part,but ‘did youever get tbc impression 8 Q You said that you became incensed - 

y that she may have been dropping your name quite a bit around 9 A I was getting angry at her because, you know, kre 

lo the White House? 10 I~~thatshe-you~ow,thatsbewas-theintan’spb 

11 THE ~~~NETz: I didn’t realize it then, but now, 11 was over, and she was looking desperately to get ajo&. 

12 you know, the stuff about Uncle Walter, you know, and buIl 12 BY MS. WIRTH: 

13 likethaSIRalizznowtbatshtmayhavebeendoingthat. 13 Q When you say looking desperately to get a job, do 

14 MR. WISENBERG: Did you say “bull”? 14 you mean within the White House? 

15 THE WITNESS: Bull, I said b-u-l-l, because I 15 A Yeah. 

16 beoame incensed when I saw that. My grandkids - 16 Q Yes? 

17 THE FOREPERSON: Can I ask you -- 17 A IntheWhiteHouse,yeah,so18 THEwlTNEss: sure. 18 BY MR. WJSENBERG: 

19 THE FOREPERSON: -ifyoueverusetbeterminology 19 Q We&Imeant-WhatIwasreferringtowas-I 

20 “bubula”? 20 think just a coupk minutes ago you said, if I undersuxd 

21 THEWITNESS: rsuxedo. 21 yoqyougotincalsedwbenyou&’ * 1atsomepoiain 

22 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 22 time that she was maybe dropping your name, and you 

23 TEE-: Iuseitvexyoften. 23 refomnced with Uncle Walter business. 

24 THE POREPERSON: Okay. 24 AndIgucssI’IIaskyou,aumberone,wkndidyciu 

25 MR. WISENBERGZ How do you pronounce it? 25 bcartbatsbemigbtbavertfenedtoyouaroundtbeWbitc 

Page 94 Pagt1 -lxwITNEss: Doyouknowwhatthetermxneans? 1 House as Uncle Walter? 

2 Bubula, it’s a Jewish term - in case you people don’t know, 2 A ?heonlytimeIkncwaboutitwaswLnIreadabaz 

3 I’m Jewish - and it’s a term -- I use it as an expression of 3 it in the papers. 

4 endearment. I use it very often I could have called her 4 Q Okay. 

5 bubula at some time. 5 A Nobody ever told me that at the White House. 

6 MR. WlSENBERG: But you said you - I’m sorry. 6 Q And why did that incense you? 

7 THE FOREPERSON: It’s in the chron, page 14. 7 A It just bothers me, because she’s tryiag to 

8 MR. WISENBERG: _Did I cut you off! 8 intimatetbatsbcwascIosertometbansbcreaIIywas. Tk 

9 THE FOREPERSON: No, no. Because maybe when you’re 9 only people who call me Uncle Walter arc my nieces and 

10 banging up on the phone with somdmdy, “Call me bubula.” Dc 10 ncpbews, you know, and it was jti - I just felt it wasu’t 

11 youever- 11 proper. 

12 THE WlTNESS: Say that again? 12 Q As I understand what you’re saying, she wasn’t 

13 THE FOREPERSON: -call me bubula” Do you ever - 13 partieukrly close to you at all. Is that a fair statcmart? 

14 THE WKNESS: Say to me? Nobody ever says it to 14 A IwouIdu’tsaysbewaszalclosetome. Andwhat 

15 M. 15 doyoumoxll”c~“youkww. IwVuldn’tsaysbtwasoaof 

16 THE FOREPERSON: NO, no, no. But when ~OU?C 16 my close, intimate friends. A young kid 

17 winding up a telephone conversation. 17 Q Itakcityouwouldhavebeenquitctakenabackif 

18 THE wnx~ss: So 1% say, “Goodbye, bubula” I’ll 18 she had called you Uncle Walter to yoirr fact. 

19 do that, absolutely right 

120 

19 A Absolutely. I probably would have told hex not TV 

‘21 

MR WISENBERG: “Give me a caII some time, bubuia” 20 doit Idon’tkuowwbytbatbotbemmtso. Notaboutha, 

THE WTINEX% Bubula, absolutely right. I taught a 21 but anybody about that. 

‘22 b of pcopk Yiddish at tk White House, a few words anyhcw, 22 BY Ms. WIRTHz 

23 and the Army. It’s hard to believe, but - it’s a term I 23 Q Did you ever feel that either Monica or her mo& 

24 use. How do I spell it? I don’t know. 24 imposcdonyourtimetoomucb,eitberpeskredyoutoommzb 

25 MR. WSEmERG: &I you Spell it with or Without the 25 orPage 93 - Page 96 

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1 A Oh, I felt as - you know, when she was looking for 1 know,an~. Ialsothinkshehadtoldmeakadytbat 

2 ajob,theywerebecomingadamnpai.nintheneck. 2 she had a job at the Pentagon. I said, “Why don’t you go to 

3 Q Too many phone calls? 3 th Pentagon?” I remember that So she said, “w it’s 

4 A~Phonecallsormessagesar- Debra Finerman would 4 long subway ride, a train ride, you know,“ and - 

5 callmeonccinawhile,“I’msureyoucoulddosomethin&” 5 Q Did she ever say to you, “What I really want to d 

6 you know. I said, “I can do it.” 6 is stay in the White House. I don’t want to leave”? 

7 Q If I told you that our records showed, for example, 7 A IiXXnenIberhertelhIIgmethat_ 

8 that on September 6.1995, which I’E rep-t to you was 8 Q Did she ask you to help her try to stay tLre? 

9 during the period of time that Monica was working as an 9 A Sk probably did Probably that’s why she calico 

0 intern at the White House, September 6,1995, that thenz were 10 me. But, again, I just can’t remember that specifically. 

1 atotaloftencallsmadeonthatdayalonetoyouroffice 

phonenumber,thelastofwhichwasatmidnighSdoyouhave 12 recahtostaythere? 

apartment. 16 ~8. WIRTH: Oh, yes. Go ahead. 

7 A Oh,intheapartment 17 BY h4R. WISENBERG: 

8 Q So I can’t say, you know, whe&r these were calls 18 Q As an example, there is a call from the apartment 

9 made by her or by her mother. 19 toyou,ortoyournumbcr,anditindicatesthecallwas-- 

mother. 20 A Is this the office or the h&me? 

:1 Q But we’re taIking on September 6th of ‘95, a total 21 Ms. WIRm The OffIce. 

:2 ofteneaUsmadetoyourofficephonefromtbeapa&nent 

MR WISENBE~RG: We obviously don’t know whether or 1 Q - 2: 18 pm., duration, 19 minutes. And not only 

2 not anybody actually connected or just left messages or 2 was this ber last day at the White House, but this would have 

3 things like this. 3 baenshortlyafterameetiagshehadattheWhiteHousewitb 

4 TEE WITNESS: It’s highly unlikely I was in the 4-n omasson about where she was going to be. Aad I’ll 

5 office until midnight. 5 j~tellyouthatattbattimctheywerealreadyplanniagto 

6 BY h%S. WIRTH: 6 send her to the Pentagon. 

7 Q Doyounzmemberdayshkethat,though,whenyou 7 So your memory that you - this is consistent witl 

8 got lots of phone calls? 8 what you just told us, that you already -- you think you 

9 A This is interesting. That your records show that 9 kard that she was already going to the Pentagon. 

0 fromtheirqartment- oneafteranothzr,youmeaqor- 10 A Yeah, that she was going to the Pentagon, yeah. 

1 Q These phone calls begin at 8:36 in the morning J 1 Q AndifIunderstand-Idon’twanttoputwordsin 

2 and- 12 your mouth - 

3 A 8:36 am.? 13 A That’s okay. 

4 Q Yes, and end at midnight. 14 Q But if I understand what you’ve just said, you do 

5 A I certainly don’t remember that. 15 ~buA4onicaorsomcbodyonMonica’sbd&asLiagyou 

6 Q On April 9th of 1996, which I’ll represent to you 16 if-tellingyouthatshewanttdtostayinthewhitcHouse. 

7 is Monica’s last day working at the Office of Legislative 17 A Right. 

8 Affairs at the White House, if I told you that our records 18 Q But you don’t have a very detailed memory of that? 

9 showthatonthat&yttrerewerethreephoaecalls~to 19 A ButIalso remember telling her, “What’s wren8 with 

0 your office - 20 tht Pentagoq” you know. 

1 A From her office? 21 Q Right. 

2 Q - from -- again, from the apartment shared by 22 A At that time I was so involved with the Army, yol 

3 Monica and bcr mother. Do you bavc any rccolkction of those 23 know. I think they’re great. 

4 phone calls, of receiving phone calls on her last day? 24 BY Ms. WIRTI-iz 

5 A I’remember her calling me looking for a job, you 25 Q And this was Monica telling you, “It’s a long 

Page 97 - Page 100 
In re: Grand JUI-Y Procccdinns Multi-Page= May 21,1998 

a 

Page IO 

I subway ride. I don’t want to do that”? 

2 A It was either Monica, again, or her mother. 

3 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

4 Q You’re not sure whether it was Monica or her 

5 mother. 

6 A (Nodding.) 

7 Q hthat a--I COddII'thearyOU. 

8 A Oh, it was either Monica or. her mother.- 

9 Q Okay. 

0 BY Ms. WIRTH: 

1 Q As I said a moment ago, our records show thru 

2 calls from their apartment to your office on April 9th o 

3 1996. Our records also show that on April lO& the next 

4 day, 1996, there is a ten-minute call, again, from the 

5 apartment to your offict, followed by a call err April 12th 

6 andacallAprill5tl~ 

7 A she was pretty desperate. 

8 Q Do you have any memory of Monica during this peria 

9 of time speaking to you on the phone and seeming eithe 

0 upset,ordidshccxy? Doyourememberanyreaetionthatsb 

1 had to leaving the White House? 

2 A As I think back now, she probably was very 

3 emotional. But I know one thing, I didn’t do anything. I 

4 mean, I didn’s you know - 

5 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

I 

2 

3 

4 

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7 

B 

P 

3 

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3 

1 

5 

5 

1 

3 

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Page 10: 

Q Didshetellyouwhyshewas-well,Ithink 

you’ve already said - 

A when she was kaving. 

Q Yes. I think you’ve already said that someone to1 

you, you think Monica, that the position was being 

eliminated 

A She told me -- no, the whole office. 

Q The whole office.. 

A They shut down the office. 

Q Okay. Did she give you any other reason at the 

time for why she was having to move? 

A I don’t remember. 

Q Okay. 

A But I was shocked they were shutting down an 

office. But I didn’t even inquire. I mean, it was, you 

know - 

BY MS. WIRlTk 

Q During any of&is time - you told us earlier that 

you beard things like Monica is eve, she dcesn’t dxss 

appropriately. You told us that you’d been told she was 

stalking the President_ 

Did you ever hear anything about any relationship 

between her and the President? 

A From anybody. 

Q From anybody. 

1 

2 

3 

4 

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7 

8 

9 

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5 

A Yes. 

Q What did you hear? 

Page 103 

A I heard a couple of women call me to say, “Wal 

you know what’s going on? Monica Lewinsky is having an 

affair with the President.” I said, “Oh you’re nuts,” yol 

know, or something like that. 

Q whowcrcthe~women? 

A I’ll-give you their names. I happen to remember 

tbzm. AndI’lIteIIyouwhoeIse. Thenameswere-oh 

w I can’t believe it She’s now treasurer of ttr - I’ll 

thinkofit. 

One was Ronnie Gmott, G-i-n-o-t-t, comts from Hew 

York, and tky wue active in tk Wana~‘s -hip Fmm. 

And what’s the other lady? Pensky, Carol Pensky. 

Q AndwwetbesetbingstaldtoyouwhenMtmicawas 

still working at the White House or after? 

A God, again, I don’t remem&. 

Q Doyoubaveanymemaryofwbentbeseconvasatioos 

took place? 

A No. 

BY h4R WISENBERG: 

Q Did you say you’ll tell us somebody else? 

A Yeah. Her aunt told me that her mother had told 

herthatshewasgettingcallsfiomthePresident. I 

absolutely though it was off the - you know. 

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Q In other words, Debra Fw told you that Marcia 

Lewis had told Debra - 

ARight 

Q - that Monica was getting phone calls from the 

President? 

ARight. 

Q And what was your reaction when you heard that’? 

A Myreaction? Iwentintoastateof-Ijust 

couldn’t believe it_ I just couldn’t believe it. 

BY h4S. WIRTHz 

Q Doyou rememberhowthatsubjectcameupwithyou 

and Debra? 

A No. 

Q Do you rcmemberwhetLritwasinthecontextof 

DebraaskingyouwhetkrMonieaeouIdattendafrmdraisa 

tbtyOUwtn qxmming at thz Waldorf? 

A ThatIwassponsormgattheWaldorf? 

Q Yes. Haveyoueversponsoredafumlraiserat~ 

Waldorf? Have you ever bought a table at the fun&a&r7 

A I’ve bought tables, I’ve bought plenty of tables. 

That was almost like a rcgukir routine. 

Q DidDebraFiianeveraskyouwlxtherMoni 

could sit at your tabk? 

A Yes. I 

Q hyou xememberwhentbatwas? I 

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1 A I don’t remember if she asked me if shz could sit 1 A - and I recrdl her - I remember it now, you see. 

2 at the table or we could get her in to the function. 2 That I had said that her niece was very aggressive, I hat 

3 Q Do you remember when the function was? 3 heardsheu?isvayaggressive. Shebecamevcryupsetat 

4 A It was either at the Radio City Music Hall or at 4 that. 

5 the-oneofthehotels. 5 Q Okay. And is that when she relayed - 

6 Q Do YOU remember a function at the Waldorf! 6 A ?-hat 1 can’t tell you. 1 don’t remember that. 

7 A ‘That Monica was there? 7 Q Okay. 

8 Q No,wel.l- . 8 A Possible. I don’t runember. ButIdoremembashc 

9 A IrcmemberMonicacallingmeoncerdso-and1 9 got very upset about that, that I would call her niece 

0 don’t remcmberex~lywhen-aboutgettingintoseetht 10 aggressive. 

I President at a function. I said, “Listen, buy a table. Buy 11 BY hS. WlRTI-k 

2 a table like anybody else.” 12 Q So wkn you said earlier that these two people, 

3 Q In New York 13 Carol Pensky and Ronnie Ginott, I guess her name is - 

4 A In New York, yeah. 14 A Yeah 

5 Q =You reinember wkther it was in the context of 15 Q - that they, in esscncc, told you that Monica was 

6 Dct~raFm aakiagyouwbUbuMnnicacouldcitbaaacnd 16 havinganaf&irwithttxzPresi&nt,thattlrxwasatttir 

7 a function or sit at your table at a function in New York 17 person, and that was Debra Finerman, did you tba~ infer fmn 

8 that this conversation took place whne Debra advised you 18 tkfacttbattbesecallswembeingmadebythePrsident, 

9 that the President had been caIling Monica? 19 oratlcasttbatDcbraFii saidtheywuebeingmadt, 

0 A Atthattime? 20 that something was going on? .. 

1 Q Yes. Do you know if that’s when it came up. 21 A I was so shocked, 1’11 tell you, I - 

2 A I don’t- remember. 22 Q Did Debra Finerman tell you anything else other 

3 Q Okay. Do you -her whether Debra Fw told 23 than the fact that the President was calling Monica? 

4 you that the President was calling Monica at night? 24 A Not that I remember, 

5 A She told me that. 25 Q But sbe did tell you thosz phone calls wen made at 

Page 106 Page 108 

1 MR. WISENBERG: can I intermpt again? 1 night? 

2 Ms.wlRm Yes. 2 AYeah 

3 BY MR. WISENBERG: 3 Q Did she tell you the middle of the night? 

4 Q Did she just tell you out of the blue, “Marcia says 4 A Shtmayhavesaidthemiddleofthenight. Idon’ 

5 the President’s calling Monica”? Or do you rerzmber if it 5 recall exactly. But I do zmember for some reason it was at 

6 was in reaction to something you said to her? 6 night. 

7 A I don’t remember. 7 Q Okay. 

8 Q What I’m wondering is - for instance, you’ve said 8 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

9 that at some point you heard from people such as Debi 9 Q Do you remember if you - now, you’ve told us two 

D Schiff-orIthi&yousaiditwoddbavebeenoncofthese 10 different people - and, of course, Debra Finerman is the 

1 two, you think, Debi SchifT or Ann McCoy that Monica’s 11 aunt - but you’ve ids0 got two DNCtypes, Itak it, ti 

2 being - you know, being or was aggressive around the White 12 have told you - 

3 House, tbez stalker, you’ve told us about the stalker, Evelyn 13 A Yeah, these two other women. 

4 Lieberman and the dress incident. 14 Q - who have told you there’s an affair going on. 

5 Is it possible that you relayed that at some point 15 Do you repeat this to anybody? 

6 to Debra Finerman - 16 A You mean, did I tell anybody about this? 

7 A I could have. 17 Q Right, this information that you had learned, 

5 Q - and that in reaction to that - in other words, 18 eitherthatthemwasanunorofanaffairorthat~ 

9 you’re kind of - 19 President was making nighttime phone calls to Monica? 

il A Yeah, maybe you’re right 20 A Idydont ’ remember. I doubt it. Idcm’t 

1 Q She asks you for a favor about Monica. You say, 21 know. Possiile. 

2 “Monica’s too aggressive,” or something like that. 22 Q hnean,htrikesmetherearediffmtwaysin 

3 A YOU’= refreshing my ~OIY. She got damned 23 which a person could tell. &e, it’s g&p. I’m npcatkrg 

4 angry- 24 somt gossip. 

5 Q Okay. Tell us about that. 25 A Yeah, at first, you know, I said to myself it could 

Diversified Rer~orting; Services, Inc. (202) 296-2929 

Page 105 - Page 108 
Page lo! 

I he gossip, you know. Even this thing with Debra Finerman 

2 could be gossip, you know. 

3 Q But I’m talking in terms of repeating that kind of 

4 information. You could either be repeating it - I’m no1 

5 saying that you did, but I’m positing two different things. 

6 One is, you could pass it along. It’s an 

7 interesting piece of information. 

8 A- Sure is. 

9 Q The second would be to warn somebody. As an 

0 uample, to wam Monica, “Thcsc nmmrs BT~ goiq around. You 

1 better do something about it” 

2 A I’d never do that. 

3 Q I’m just trying to jog your memory - 

4 A I understand. 

5 Q - and I’m not saying you have a memory. 

6- A Idon’t remember that. 

7 Q Do you remember - 

8 A I never remember calling anybody, either Monica 

9 or0 Q Okay. You don’t remember telling anyone about 

1 these rlKaor!3 you heard. 

2 A I’m just trying to remember who I could have told 

3 I don’t remember who I could have told I know I wasn’t 

4 going to talk about it at home, you know. 

Page 1lP 

1 BY MS. WTRTHz 

2 Q AI1 right. After Monica went to work at the 

3 Pentagon, do you have any memory of speaking to her during 

4 that period of time that she - 

5 A I think I spoke to her a couple of times. 

6 Q Did she tell you how she was doing? 

7 A She told me she -- I’m trying to remember. In 

8 fact, I even met her at a couple of Pentagon functions. I 

9 was amazed the kid got a big job there. I don’t know if you 

o call that a big job, but next thing I heard, she was 

1 traveling with the Secretary of the Army, you know. I gavel 

2 with the Secretafy of the Army, I pay. 

3 ButIwassurprisedbeca~ayotmgkid Iimagine 

4 she must have been about - at that time 22,23. 

5 Q Anditseemedlikeapnzttygoodjobtoyouthat 

6 she had? 

7 A I thought it was a very exciting job. And then she 

8 worked directly for this guy - what’s his name? 

9 MR. WISENBERG: Bacon? 

0 T’HE~ITNESS: Ken Bacon, right 

1 BY MS. WIRTHz 

2 Q Do you know Mr. Bacon? 

3 A Do I know Mr. Bacon? 

4 Q Yes. Do you know Mr. Bacon? 

5 A I met him once, with her. 

Diversified Reporting Services, Inc. (202) 296-2929 

Pq 111 

1 Q Okay. 

2 Ms.wRTHI Goahead 

3 A JUROR: Did you conjecture as to how this caz 

4 about? 

5 THE WINES: You mean the job at the Pentagon? 

6 AJUROR: Ye& 

7 THE ms: I was surprised sht got it, m I 

8 know I never made any calls. 

9 A JUROR: But did you have any ideas about atrat 

o could have happened? . 

1 THE WITNESS: 1 just thought somebody got lx the 

2 job, you know. 

3 A JUROR: Do you know who that might be? 

4 THE WITNESS: No. 

5 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

6 Q Didyouputto@ertkrumorsyoubeardabouttbc 

7 affairandtbcfaathatsbegotaniajobattbtPcntagon? 

8 A I may have, but it doesn’t stick in my mind, 

9 doesn’t-butlwassurprisedthatshegotajobtithat, 

0 becauseKcnBaconistl~-he’stbznumberonespokesaan, 

1 isn’t he? 

2 Andyourqucstiontomewas,didIputtwo-aud~ 

3together4 AJUROR: Yes. 

5 THE- -andsaythatmaybesomebodyattbe 

Page 1,. 

I White House got her the job? 

2 AJUROR: Yes. 

3 THE wllW~% I may have thought about it, but I 

4 really don’t remember. 

5 Iknowonething. IhadmadeupmymiadthatIwas 

6 doing nothing. 

7 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

8 Q And why was that? 

9 A I don’t know. I just felt uncomfortable about the 

0 whole thing you know. It was just - 

1 Butlalsodo llmembershewautaitolemainattk 

2 WhiteHouse. 

3 BY Ms. WIRTH: 

4 Q !Wuringtheseeonversationsthatshehadtithyor,~ 

5 whenskuTsworkingatthePaltagon,sllenliaedtithypo 

6 thatshe(Rrlmtedtogobaclrto~rkstthtWhideH~? 

7 A Yeal~ she told me that. whtn exactly, I don’t 

B remember. 

9 Q Didsbeevcr~youifyouwouldhtlphcr~bsclr 

3 in? 

I A She probably did, but I don’t rfmembcrcxactly. 

2 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

3 Q Butyouhaddetcrminedinyourmindthatyou 

I weren’t going to do that? 

5 A That’s right 

Page 109 - Page 112 
Page 113 Page 11: 

1 Q You said “because of the whole thing.” 1 Q Now, you told the grand jury just a little bit ago 

2 A Iwasupsetaboutthebook,Iwas-itjustmade 2 that you were at this time not having good feelings abox 

3 me feel uncomfortable, the whole situation. 3 this whole family. 

4 Q Wee you upstt about the rumors you were hearing? 4 A Yeah, but I also felt sony for them, and I knew 

5 A Iwasinastateofshock 5 tbeaunSyouImow,andshtwasvayclosttobcrsistn. So 

6 BY ILK WI.RTI-Iz 6 what tk be& you know. I don’t know what to say, you know, 

7 Q Did she ask you on more than one occasion to help 7 but I’m rather comfortable, and I give away lots of money. 

8 hergetbackintotl&VhiteHouse? 8 Q was there any specific reaxm that you gavethis 

9 A Idon’t remember specifically, but I would assume 9money? 

o sbedid. ButIwastalkiqtoherlessandlessandsuing 10 A Not that I remember. 

I bet less and less. What was that, ‘95, is that what you’re 11 Q Did anyone tell you, “We need money for ‘x” or - 

2 saying? 

3 BY MR: WISENBERG: 

4 Q she’sactually-ShegOeSOvertothePentagOnin 14v 

5 April of ‘96. 15 Q This is Marcia L.cwis? 

6 A April of ‘96? 16 A Yeah. 

7 Q Yes. 17 Q This was not a loan, it was a gift. 

8 BY hfS. WIRTH: 18 A ItWaSagik 

9 Q Did Monica ever discuss the President with you? 19 Q Have you ma& similar gifts to her? 

o Did she ever - 20 A IthinkthisistheonlygiftI’veevergivento 

1 A Never. 21 ber. Again, I said “I think.” I have to doubkz-check. But 

2 Q Did she ever tell you - 22 thatwastheonlycbeck-thatwastbecmlythingt&t~ 

3 A She just said he’s a great guy, you know, and - 23 find, you know, pertaining to Monica Lcwinsky. 

4 MR. WEXNBERG: By the way, any time you need to 24 Q Do you know if this money was intended for Monica 

s take a break, not just to talk to your attorney, but if you 25 in any way or was it for her mother? 

Page 114 Page 116 

1 justneedtotakeabreak- 1 A It was intended strictly for her mother. 

2 THE WITNESS: No. If you can handle this, I can 2 You know, I’d love to - could I get a glass of 

3 handle it. I’m no youngster, but I - except I can’t bear, I 3 water or something? 

4 can’t see. Other than that, I’m all right 4 Q Oh, sure, okay. 

5 BY MS. WIRTH: 5 A IsitallrightifIgooutand6 Q If you would take a look at Grand Jury WK-9, that 6 MR. WENBERG: h-e. 

7 check that you talked about earlier for $10,000. 7 MS. WIRTH: You want to take a break? 

B A Yeah. 8 THE FOREPERSON: Yes. 

9 Q correct? - 9 Ms. WXR’~X Fifteen minutes. 

D A Right. 10 THE FOREPERSON: Yes. 

1 Q It’s dated November 25, 1996, and it’s made out to I1 MS. WIRTI-IZ Okay, thank you. 

2 Marcia Lewis, corn%? 12 THE FOREPERSON: Take as long as you need. 

3 A Right. I3 THEWITNESS: No,Ijustwanttogetaglassof 

4 Q And it’s drawn on your account. 14 water. Youhaveitfightinhenz? Idon’tevenbavetogo 

5 A Right, 1s out 

6 Q What is the Walter Kaye Special Account? 16 MR. WISENBERG: 141 tell you what There’s a 

7 A That’s the name of the account I’ve been using for 17 machine down&.rs with bottled water. 

B years. 18 THE -S: No, I’m okay. 

9 Q Okay. -* 19 MRWISENBERG: whatwecandoisgetsomcwata 

:0 A And this bank that’s the only account I have. 20 fountain water in a cup. We’d be happy to do that 

:1 Q Okay. Now, you said that this was a gift, correct? 21 THE WITNESS: I would chew a piece of gum, but I 

:2 A Yes, it was a gift 22 don’t think that would be polite or proper. Is that all 

:3 Q Okay. And it’s a gift that you made in November of 23 right? Then I don’t need the water. 

14 ‘96, correct? 24 MR. WISENBERG: Okay. We don’t stand on ceremony 

15 A Yeah. 25 here. 

-;- - _._ 

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1 m u-rrmss: I didn’t think it was proper, you 1 Q Did you ever hear from anybody that she saw the 

2 know. 2 President at the White House after she left? 

3 THE FOREPERSON: No, it’s just fine. 3 A No, never heard that. In the papers, you know, 

4 THE NlTNEsS: Thank you. 4 the newspapers. 

5 BY MS. WIRlHz 5 Q Independent of tht newspapers. No? 

6 Q Did Monica ever discuss with you my efforts she 6 A No. Wbcndidshelcave-wassbeintkl’entagon 

7 wasmakiqtogetajobintheNationalStxmityAdvisor’s 7 ill’%? 

80ffleeatthtwhiteHOuse? -- 8 BY hfR. WISENBERG: 

9 A No. I haven’t heard this, in fact, until just now. 9 Q Our information is that she left the Pentagon on 01 

0 Q Okay. Didshceveraskyouifyouwouldmveasa IO about December 26, 1997. 

1 rcferenceonhabehaKinmyeffortsthatsbcwasmakingto I1 A ‘97? Just a few months ago, really. 

2 get back into the White House? 12 BY MS. WIRTH: 

3 A Idon’t runcmbaberdoingtbat. AndIdm’tthink 13 Q Did you ever hear from anywhere about any efforts 

4 I ever gave her a reface. I don’t remember. 14 byMonicatogetajobinNewYork? 

5 Q ~youknowwbetherhkmicahadanymatit~~witb I5 A No. FirsttimeIsawthat,again,iswbenIread 

6 zqbodyattbeWhitcHouscaboutgcttingbackintowork 1 1 16 itinthcpapers. 

7tbe? 1 17 Q DidyouevercallMonicaandaskherwhethershe 

8 A No, I don’t I 18 aeededanyhelp@ingajobinNewYork,orwhetbcrtkre 

9 Q DoyouknowwhethershcevcrmetwithhhhaScott I 19 was anything you could do for her? 

o inaneffotitogetbac.ktotheWhiteHouse? a 1 10 A I don’t think so. I don’t remerhber exactly, 

1 A That I don’t know. She never told M that. : !l though. 

2 Q Neither Marsha Scott nor Monica? 1 !2 Q ~isthelasttimethatyounzmembcrspe&qto 

3 A Neither one of them. I don’t think 1% had more i !3 kr? 

4 than two or three conversations with Marsha Scott. : !4 A I would say somcwhcIc aboutthetime-IthkI 

5 BY MR WISENBERG: 1 !5 rMysmvcspokalmbacmce-&waitaminue. JixcIlsemc. 

Page 118 1 Page 1, 

1 Q Iwanttogobackalittlebitintimenow. Doyou 1 Iwenttoapromotion ceremonyattbeI’enta8on,andtkze& 

2 everrcmcmbcrMcmi~tellingyou-callingyoutotellyou 2 waswithMr.Bacm. 

3tbatskbdmctthePzsidulflikcmaybctkfkttimcdJc 3 Q Is that General Myers’ promotion7 

4 actuallyreallymethimortalkedtohim? 4 

5 A I don’t remember that But I did - you know, 5 A &nerd Myers, that’s right. very good. 

6 again, from rumors and things like that, that she bad become 6 Q And when was that, approximately7 

7 my close to the President. 7 A GeneralMyusprobablybecameatwo-stargcnclalB Q Right No, I meant more like Monica calling you. 8 I don’t know - six, eight, nine months ago. 

9 Forinstancc,1&n’ssomcindicationthatshe~with 9 Q And this was at the Pentagon? 

3 hiqdeiivaedpizzatohimduringoncoftkgwanmcnt 1 0 A This was at tk Pewagon. 

I shutdowns. 1 1 Q And Monica was thze. 

2 Did she ever calI you all excited to tell you that? 1 2 A %ewasthere. 

3 A Youmean,Isboulddeliverthep~too? 1 3 Q And you saw her; 

I Q Pardon? 1 4 A Andwtsawher. 

5 A I said maybe she wanted me to deliver th pizza 1 5 Q Okay. 

5 No, she never did First time I hard about that. 1 6 A Infact,that’swhreshtintroduecdmetoI I tell yoy in some ways this is rather I 7 Q Mr.Bacoxi? 

i interesting. i 1 8 A -Mr.Bacon,whomhadncvcrmetbefon. 

3 MR. WISENBERG: I’m sorry for intemqting. 19 ’ Q&You xmemberanythingaboutyouramversations 

1 Ms. Wnz-lH: That’s fm. 2’ 0 withhwhatday? 

I BY MS. WIRTH: 2 1 A hwasabigcrowdofpeople,youknow,andt Q AfterMticalefttbeWhiteHouseandwdsworking 2 2 Q wereyoufriendlytoherthatday? 

I attbeSewgm,didyoucvcrhcaranythingf~aa~ 2 3 A 1 was fkiendy. I’m friendly to everybody, you 

1 anywhere that she was back at tht White House visiting? ’ 2G 4 know. Yeah,andmywifewasthere. 

i A No, never heard that. 2. 5 

- Q -You remember anything you discussed with her 

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Page 121 

I that day at all? 

2 A That day, no. 

3 Q Justsmalltalk? 

4 A I don’t think I discussed - unimpomt things, if 

5 I even discussed it with her. I was surprised to see her 

6 thxe. But I also attributed that to lxx aggressiveness. 

7 she knows bow to, you know, get around. 

8 Q Didanybody,fmmtheWhiteHouseoranywhereclsc, 

9 including Monica’s family, tell you Monica wants to move to 

1 o New York, she wants a job in New York? 

1 1 A I don’t remember. 

1 2 Q DidyouJmowthatkrmohrbadmovcdtoNcwYork? 

1 3 A I found out about it later on. 

1 4 Q Later when tht story brok? 

1 5 A YcXih. 

1 6 Q Butyoudidn’tknowthatMatdaLcwishadmovaito 

1 7 New York? 

1 8 A No. Actually, I’m trying to remember. Somebod] 

1 9 mayhavexnentionedtometbattheybumpedintober. She’s 

2 0 taking a - I didn’t know anything about it. 

2 1 Q That they’d bumped into her in New York City? 

2 2 A InNewYorkor,youknow-Iwasveqsurprisedto 

2 3 hearthatsbehad-verysurprised,becauseIneverkn~ 

2 4 what they wue going to do. I still don’t know to this day, 

2 5 and I don’t care, really, if she lives in New York, 

Page 122 

Page May 2,. 19% 

Page 123 

J asking her if thex~‘s anything you could do for lxr? 

2 A I don’t remember that, but it is possible, because 

3 thilt’sthewayIam. 

4 Q But you have no knowledge whasoever of any &sire 

5 or efforts on her part to get a job in New York prior to 

6 anything in the papers? 

7 A No, I don’t remember ever her discussing that wil 

8 me. 

9 Q Or anybody discussing it with you 

0 A No, I don’t remember. % 

J Q Did anybody at the White House ever pi& up the 

2 phone3 A No. 

4 Q - and say, “Mr. Kaye” - 

5 A No. 

6 Q- “Monies’s trying to get a job in New Y&k” - 

7 A “Get Monica a job in New York”? 

8 Q Well, “Monica’s trying to get a job in New York. 

9 canyoudoscanething-isthereanyrhingyoucandobtry 

D andhelpher? 

1 A I don’t remember that at all. 

2 BY MR WEENBERG: 

3 Q Do YOU zmemher anybody ever calling you fran the 

I White House and saying. basically, something to this efkk 

5 And I’m not neceshly talking about the exact m time 

Page 12r 

1 Washington or Timbuktu. 

2 Q Do you have any memory whatsoeva of calling %nicl 

3 cm the telephone and asking her if thcze’s anything you could 

4 do for her -- or anything you could for her in New York? 

5 A I don’t remember that It’s hard for me to 

6 rememberthat-not tememher. It’s hard for me to believe I 

7 would say that. Because by that time - I didn’t even know 

8 hcrmothermovedtoNewYork. WhatIhadreadwasthatsh 

t 9 was thinking of moving to New York for a job or something 

II D and1 J Q But that’s after the story broke. 

1: 2 A After the story broke. 

1: 3 Q Let’s talk about like last fall, the fall of ‘97, 

1, 4 Sepmher, October, November, Decemher. Do you mnemhe~ 

1. 5 calling Monica at aU? Have you evu pickai up tk pkme and 

II 6 called Monica? 

1’ 7 A IthinkIhave. 

1: 8 Q Okay. Have. you done that - 

1’ 9 A I don’t believe that recently, though. That’s 

21 0 prettyreeent. 

2 J Q Last fall. Have you done that last fall? 

2: 2 A Possible. Maybe I just felt sorry for her. I try 

2: 3 to help people who, ypu know, I think are having a rough 

2s 4 time. 

2: 5 L Q Doyouever remember picking up the phone and 

I period that Ms. Wirth is. 

2 But somebody calling you from tbe White HOUS and 

3 saying.“Loak,Monica’s~tryingtogetbafkbert,~~ 

4 just don’t think we’re going to do it+ that we’re going to be 

5 able to do it” Either without giving you a reason or jus 

5 saying she’s too aggmsive, sbc’s too hot to handle. “Can 

7 you do anything for her?” 

3 Do you remember any kind of a convers&on like 

3 that? 

1 A Maybe it hap-d, but I really don’t xumnber 

I that 

2 Q But,Imean,thatwouldbesomething,ifit 

) happened in the last year, you would .bc likely to rum&r. 

I A Maybe. Listen, sometimes I don’t know what I had 

s for breakfast in the morning. 

5 Q Well,ycs,me, too. But - 

I A That’s it You’ve got another 70 years to ga 

$ Q Thanks, I hope so. That would make me 124. 

P A Oh, I believe young people like all you pcoplt wil 

) live to be 140. 

1 Q You believe that? 

I A I believe that. That’s why you’re all sup@ to 

I buy drug stocks. 

I Q Okay. 

i A Pardon me. -You’ve got to withdraw that. 

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1 (Laughter.) J it’s inuzesziq about the Pentagon. I’m associated with tbc 

2 I almost find this intesting in some ways. 2 Army only, and I really bavc no con** with, you know, tht 

3 Q why iS that? 3 Department of Defense. 

4 A 1 think it’s A.tneriCa at its best No Other Country 4 For example, I’d never met Mr. Bacon. General 

5 Iike this where a group of ordinary citizens, you know, 5 Myers, for example, I know. He’s Jk equivalent. He’s tk 

6 doree the law, really. ‘Ihat’s tbe way - I’m not a lawyer 6 PA offiaz. But I tiy dcn’t know people at tk Dcpamncnt 

7 or anything, but I just think it’s - I get goosebumps as I 7 of Defense. 

8 tell itto you. I can’t say enough great-things-about this 8 IsawSecretaryCohenyesterdayatamtimment 

9 c8xllltly. 9 ceremony right here in Washington. 

JO It has plenty of faults like everybody - you know, JO BY h4R. WJSJXNBERG: 

11 butit’sjustgreat,tbata8rcxipoforclinarypcopleumduct JJ Q So your answer was, you didn’t bear any 

~ 12 an investigation like this and - 12 eomparabk13 Nobody ever asked me about getting a job in New 13 A No. 

14 York. 14 Q -stuff~butthatyoumightn~bave~inthe 

I5 MR.WEENBERG: lwanttonoteforthcreeordthat 15 samepositionbeeauseyoudidn’thavetbeconeactsattbt 

I 6 Mr. Kaye called me “ordinary.” ~6 PentagonthatyouhadattheWhiteHouse. Isthatafair 

17 THE LfCJmEs: I apologize. I’m sorry, I apoIo&e. 17 statement? 

18 MR. WJSENBERG: There’s nothing abnormal about me. 18 A That’s a fair statement 

19 TIE WITNESS: There I go. 19 BY MS. WIRTHz 

20 (Laughter.1 20 Q Sina the story became public, January 21,1998, 

21 Am WISENBERG: I’m very thankful for the 21 have you had any contact at all with Monica Lewimky? 

~2 statement, you understand? 22 A No, absolutely not 

23 THE WlTNESS: I don’t mean that I know you’re 23 Q Have you spoken to Marcia Lewis? 

24 very talented. 24 A No. 

25 MR WISENJSERG: No, no, I’m perfectly happy to be 25 Q Have you spoken to Debra Finer-man? 

Page 126 Page 1, 

I called normal. J A No. 

2 THE wrrNEss: I’m really embarrassed. No mom. I 2 Q Have they attempted to reach you? 

3 won’t volunteer anything any more. I really apologize. 3 A No. 

4 MR. WISENBERG: No, no, no. You don’t need to 4 Q Noonehasmadeacalltoyou? 

5 apologize. I was attempting to be humorous. 5 A No. 

6 BY MR. WISENBERG: 6 BY MR WlSENBERG: 

7 Q All right But the point is, to the best of your 7 Q You sound very firm in your answers. 

8 rccdlection, you don’t remember somame callingyou-you 8 A BccauseImadeupmymindIwasl’tgoingto-you 

9 rcmcmti a bunch of other things, but you don’t remember 9 know, absolutely wouldn’t talk to them. I didn’t want to 

JO somebady. because of your position, calling you and sayiug, IO haveanythingtodowiththem. 

J 1 “Walter, Mr. Kaye, we’re just not goiq to be able to get kr 1 J Q Hasanybodyattemptedtowntactyouon&ir 

12 back here. She’s too hot to handle,” anything Iike that. 12 behalf? 

13 A 1 don’t remember. 13 A Absolutely not 

14 Q Okay. 14 Q Has Monica’s attorney contacted you, Mr. Ginsburg 

I5 A JUROR: Did you ever hear anything about I5 or Mr. Speights? 

16 aggressive behavior on Monica’s part before she came to 16 A No,never. Neversawthemcxepton~~. 

17 Washington, D.C.? 17 Q OtherthanthecaIlfrmnBruceLindseythatytnt 

18 THE wmass:..Never. I didn’t know her, I re.alIy 18 told us about earlier - 

19 didn’t know her. I RxiIly got to know Ixr after she 19 A Rigtn 

20 graduated. Her motbcr started to put pressure cmmtogd 20 Q -haveyouhadanyamtactwithanytmdyatthc 

21 tbe kid a job. 21 WbiteHousesincetbisstotybrokeaboutMcmica~ 

22 A JUROR: Did you ever hear of any stories about 22 A No. 

23 Monica’s aggressiveness at tbc Rntagon comparable to what 23 Q HaveyoueverdiseusscdMonieaLtwinskywitbtk 

24 went on at the White House? 24 First Lady? 

25 THE wn-~Ess: No, I never heard that You see, 25 A No, absolutely not 

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J Q Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI in late 

2 March of ‘98? 

3 A Yeah, just a couple of months ago, ‘for that matter 

4 Q A couple of agents from our office - 

5 ARight. 

6 Q - from the Office of Independent Counsel? 

7 AThre!eagcnts,Inmcmberthat 

8 Q Didyoudiscussthefactthatyouwtrtgoingtok 

9 intavicwtd with anybody other than your attDmey before yo1 

o had that interview? 

J A say that again? 

2 Q Did you disc&s the fact that you were going to be 

3 interviewed with anybody other than your attomey befoR yol 

4 halithatin~ew? 

5 A I don’t understand your question. 

6 Q Did you talk to anybody about the fact that you 

7 weregoingtobeintervie~dbythe~x? 

8 A About the FBI, or before the FBI? 

9 Qfight 

0 A I told my wife, I told my kids, you know. 

J Q Otherthanthat? 

2 Ah? 

3 Q Other than that, anybody else. 

4 MJL WISMBERG: Or your attorney. We don’t want to 

5 hear- 

: 

1 : 

1 

1 

1 

I 

I 

l 

1 

: 

. 

1 

i 

i 

i 

J Avenue is blocked off with police. 

2 Q Because the press was trying to get to you? 

3 A That’s right I findly went down, you know. I 

4 can’t stay in the house indefinitely, you know. 

5 ButIstillthi&listen,thisisAmerica,free 

6 press. You know, I think it’s a great thing directly 

7 affecting yoq so - 

8 THE FOREPERSON: And you asked for excitcmcnt 

9 THE wIrNl3s: The what? 

LO THE FOREPERSON: You asked for excitement 

II THE LVENESS: I don’t know you, but I love you. 

12 (Laughttr.) 

13 Can I say something off the ncord here? 

I4 MRWISENEERG: Ithastobeontherecord. 

15 THEwlTNEm YesterdayIhadoneofthzmost 

I6 exciting experiences of my life. I end up on an &craft 

17 earrier150milesoutofthePortofNewYork. Iflyinina 

18 helicopter, and I’m having a heck of a good time. I lik 

19 that, you know. 

t0 I never forget my background, you know. I’m 

!J nothing but a Jewish guy from ‘he Bronx, and I can’t believe 

!Z this. I’m really very excited. 

!3 BY Ms. WIRTH: 

!4 Q Have you discussed your appearance today with 

!S anyone other than your family and your Ia+ 

Page 130 I 

J THEwITNESS: Oh,myattorneyI2 MR. WISENBERG: No, WC don’t want to - other than 

3 yourattoxney. 

4 BY MS. WJRTHz 

5 Q Other than your attorney. 

6 A Knowing myself, I probably told 50 people about it 

7 Q Okay. Did you discuss it with anybody at the White 

8 House? 

9 A Never. 

D Q After the intmiew did you discuss it with anybody 

J at the White House? 

2 A Notthat remember. No. Iwassomehatannoyed, 

3 Iwasgettingalitieangry,youknow. Andthenwhenthey 

4 cakdmcbackagain,youhow-notangry. Iwasjusfyou 

5 know-beCausesometime5If~lasif-I’mnotgoingto 

6 say that. Go ahead. You ask the questions. 

7 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

B Q That’s okay,. Sometimes you feel as if what? 

? A Oh, I feel as if, you know, I’m ma& to look as if 

3 I was trying to overthrow tbc united states Govemlnalt. You 

1 knowwhat’sberngoingonwithmwitllncwspaJxrsMdtbings 

2 likethat? 

3 Q You’ve been bothered? 

4 A Bothered? We had to change our phone number. One 

5 day hetwem the offh and the house we got 122 calls. Pa& 

1 

J 

J 

J 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

I2 

2 

2 

2 

2 

2 

Page 132 

1 A Probably 50 or 100 people. 

2 Q Friends? Anyone at the White House? 

3 A No. AnybodyattkWhiteHouse? YesterdayIsaw 

4 Ann McCoy - see, I’d never think of this - at this 

5 ceremony. It was a ceremony for the retiremept of Togo W& 

6 whowastheSecretaryoftheArmyandhasjustbeconx 

7 Secretary of Veterans Affairs. I’ve got to say this, a of 

8 the gmtest Americans that’s ever lived, a tenific guy, and 

9 the most eloquent .-speaker I’ve ever heard. I told Ann MeCq 

0 that. 

1 In fact, you want to know something? Debi Schif 

2 was there, too, and I probably told it to her, too. 

3 Q Did either of them say anything to you about it? 

4 A No. 

5 MRWJXNBEJIG: Chwtakea-whatuntkgoing 

6 to do is ask if you will step outside - 

7 THJzwlTNEss: sure. 

8 MR. WISENBERG: -backtowheyourattomeyis 

9 for a few minutes. 

0 THEwrrNEss: sure. 

,l MR WISENBERG: And we’ll wme get you in a fca 

2 minutes. 

3 THE WITNESS: Could I just ask you one question? 

4 h4R. WISEKBERG: Absolutely. I don’t know if I’ll 

5 beabletoanswerit. 

May 21, A93b 

Page 131 

Page 129 

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Page 13 3 

1 ?HE~: No. Wehappentohaveaclinnerparty 

2 bmi4htinNcwYorLandIwaswondaingifyouheveanyides 

3 ifI’dbeabletomake-getbacktoNewYorkintimefor 

4it 

5 hm WIsENBERG: Is it a late dinner? 

6 t&a*.) 

7 MR WSENBERG: I don’t think it will be a problem. 

8 I don’t think so. 

9 THE -s: You’re all invited. I’m going to a 

0 dimcr patty on another aircraft car&r. 

1 And you’re going to call me? 

2 MR. WISENBERG: we’ll come get you. 

3 (The witness was excused.) 

4 (Whereupon, at 12:36 p.m., the taking of the 

5 tcstimonyintheprcsanxofafMquonxnoftheGrandJury 

6 was conchid.) 

7 l * * l * 

May 21,1998 

Diversified Rc~ortinpr Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

Page 133 - Page 133 - 
i fuqypf: S CORPORATION 

ACTIVITY INFORMATION: 

100% DISPOSITION AT A NET LOSS 

ORDINARY INCOME (LOSS) 

SCHEDULE E ACTIVITY INCOME’ (LOSS) 

PAL CARRYOVER FROM 1993 - SCHEIJQLEi ESCHEDULE E.&CTIVITY NET LOSS 

TAX PREFERENCE ITEMS: .*v> 

AMT PAL CARRYOVER FROM 1993 - SCHEDULE E 

-10854 

-10854 

-17739 

-28593 

4 

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17013 

1226-DC-00000018 
. . 

. . : . . 

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. . . . 

. 

. : - ,;-. *. 

: . . . . 

122$-DC-~~ 9’ 

. . ’ 
Shareholders ’ name. address. 

dy$g&i!w 

Corporations ’ name, address,and ZIP code 

Walter Kaye 

.- 

Beverly,Hills Magazine 

700 N Trenton Dr 

Beverly,Hills, CA 90210 

A Shwehoiders ’ percentage of stock ownership for tq year (see Instructions for Schedule K-l) . . . . . b _. _ __. . ._ o/; 

6 Internal Revenue Service Center where corporation filed its return b ..~....._.._.__..___...~...~.~~~~~.~.~...

Fresno CA 

C Tax shelter registration number (see instructions for Schedule K-l) . . . . . . . . . . W _ ._ . . ._ __. _._ _ . . __. _ _ _ . . _ . . _. . . ___ 

D Check appiicabie boxes: (1) 0 Fmai K-l (2) 0 Amended K-l 

Pro rata share items 

al estate activities . . . . . 

4 Portfdio income (loss): 

a interest. . . . . . . . . . . _ . . . . . . . 

b Dividends . . . . . . . . . . ’ . . . . . . . . 

c Roya?? . . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . * * 

d Net sh=ort-term capital gain (loss). . . . . . . . . . . 

e Net long-term capital gain (loss) . . . _ . . . . . . 

f Other porffoiio income (loss) (attach schedule) . . . . . . 

(c) Form 1040 fblers enter 

the amount In column 

Sch. B, Part I, line 1 

Sch. B. Part II. line 5 

Sch. E. Part I. line 4 

Sch. D. line 5. col. (f) or (9) 

Sch. D. line 13. col. (1) or (91 

(Em on a~,%ca~Ie ihnc 01 your w,urn 

5 Net gain (loss) under section 1231 (other than&lug Jo CaSU$ty or See Shareholders ’ lnstructlons 

theft) for Schedule K-l (Form 11205) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 

Ion . . . . . . . . . . . See Shareholders ’ Instructions 

9 Deductions related to portfolio income (loss) (attach schedule) . 

. . . . . . . . . . . 

b Low’ +nmme housing credit: 

(1) From section 42(j)(5) partnerships for property placed in 

service before 1990. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

(2) Other than on line 12b(l) for property placed in service before 

1990.. . . :. . . . . . . . . . . :- 

(3) From section 42(j)(S) partnerships for property placed in 

service after 1989 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

(4) Other than on line 12b(3) for property placed in service after 

1989 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

c Quaiii rehabilitation expenditures related to rental real estate 

activities (see instructions) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

d C&d&s (other than credits shown on lines 12b and 12~) related 

to rental real estate activities (see instructions) . . . . . . 

e Credits related to other rental activities (see instructions) . . . 

13 Other credits (see instructions) . . . . . . . . . - 

w[ 14s Depreciation adjustment on propem placed in service after 1986. 

g= 

z?: b Adjustedgainorloss . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

zig 

E; 

c Depletion (other than oil and gas) . . . . . . . . . . . 

55 d (1) Gross income from oil, gas, or geothermal properties , . . 

=a c* (2) Deductions allocable to,oii. gas. or geothermal properties . 

z e Other adjustments and tax preference items (attach schedule) . - 

For Paperwork Reduction Act Notice, see page 1 of Instructions for Form lq3nS p.,t ,i^..4.C..C.- - 

See Shareholders ’ lnstructrons 

for Schedule K-l (Form 11209 

1& .- ..i _.... . 

d(1) 

d(2) 

Scheduig K-l (Form 

1120s) and - 

instructions for 

Form 6251 
1993 S Corporation Election or Termination/Revocation -*-~ 35m 

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Effective for mcome year bec!innino I 19 I 9.3 , and ending /Zl 31 If.? 

Part I Part II 

Calllorru czxporobm numoef Fe,jeral employer IQenJ~hUllon numDaf Cheu the appkable box. 

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corpora uc Mm l-M 2 2. Elec ~0b1 y -l 1 lea era S ~rpora l~o ln o b ec o me a Ca Lfo ma C corpora hWI o 

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Walter Kaye Beverly Hills Magazine 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .._.....................~..~~-.~........................~..........................-. ,............___._.......-.............,................ 

A Shareholders ’ percentage of s:o& ownership for tax year (see instructions for Schedule K-l) w . % 

8 tnzmal Revenue Service Cen:er where corporation tiled its return b . Fiesno . . . . . . . . . . ..2.........................~................... CA ~~.~~~-~-~~~~~~~-~.~..~. 

C Tax shelter registration number (see Instructions for Schedule K-l) B= . _ . . . . . _ . . . . . . . . . . . 

D Check applicable boxes: (1) Fx_i Final K-l (2) i::j Amended K-l ’ ’ 

_...____._____.__., . ..__...........-.-...~...- ~...................-,........-..~.....,......................~..~~~..~...,..~-,.. ‘

..... ‘ “““...~............ . . . . . . . . ..-.............. 

(a) Pro rata share items (c) Form 1040 Ben enter 

. . . .._.____..._____..........~....~........~~~~.,..........~....~ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

i 1 Ordinary income (loss) from trade or business activities . . 

i 2 Net income (toss) from rental real edate adivities . 

j 3 Net income (loss) from other rental activities . . . 

z i 4 Portfolio income (loss): 

g ; a Interest . . _ , _ 

: 

. . ;......r................_.............., Sch. B. Part I. line 1 

;j j b Dividends : 4b i i 

, . . . , :..,..,~................ Sch. B. Pan II. line 5 

a2 1 c Royalties ; 4c : 

. ............< ‘

fi : d Net short-ten capital gain(loSs), ’ ; 

. , . 

i .-.-..,.;..........-...~. . . . . . ..___.__... Sch. E. Part 1. line 4 

. . 

, s 

; 4d ; 

2 i 

. . . . . . ..-..-...........-...~..........~ 

e Net long-term capital gain (loss) , 

- . 

: f Other portfolio income (toss) (attach schedule) 

, , . i.?.:.. ..-._..._.._..-...,......,... :i 

Sch. 0. line 5. cot (f) or (g] 

: 4f i 

Sch. 0. line 13. col. (0 or (g) 

. , . :......c-.--,..........,................; (EM m z@cSe lm d JOU rekrn) 

i 5 Net gain (loss) under section 1231 (other than due to casualty or - i 

: 5 ; 

j See Shareholders ’ lnstn~dions 

theft) 

i 6 Other in&me (loss) (an&h scbf3du~ej ’ ’ . 1 * . 

; for Schedule K-1 (Form 1120s). i.~..i..~ ‘ ~ ‘ . . . . . . . . . _ .-...,..._,...._ :. 

(EnH cn TQW In d pu mm, 

. . . ..I............-.--.-........................~....................~..~~........~...~.................~...~.....~...~~......~.~.~-.~................................................,. 

,, ‘

,.: ; 7 Charitable contributions (see instructions) (attach schedule). , Sch. A. tine 15 or 18 

.;1 

i, ..7.,; .-._ _ . .._... _ ..,....__ . . . . . . . . . . j 

.,, : t: : 8 Sedion 179 expense deduction , 

: 8 j 

li : Sharehdders Instructions 

:; : 9 De&&ions related to portfolio income (loss) &t&r~s&edu/ej : 

y.$.*; .-_--...-.......-...,....,.....; 

<i i 10 Other deductions (affe& schedule) 

;oi$.i . . . . . . . _ .---.--.-...,..... ~ .. . . i Schedule K-l (Form 1120s). 

:;:,..; . . . . _ . . . . . .._.... _ -...._...... ~ . ..~.~.~~“...~“.........~..~..~. ‘ . . . . . . . ...** :...;...:...:...;-..~~~~~ . ..-....--. _ _...^..-......-.... i . . . . ~~~~~s;i:iine ‘ i’’ . . . . .._.._ 

c5 .; ‘ : ila Interest expense on rnvestment debts .*:, ::I ‘

.;< ;: ‘ : b (1) Investment income inctuded on lines 4a, 4b, 4c. and 4fabbve See Sharehoidels lnsfrudions 

. . :.I : 

5. (2) Investment expenses included on lie 9 above 

. . . . . . j . . . . . . . . . . ..-....................-...-.-.-.....-.....-............-............- *... 

: 12a Credit for alcohol used as fuel _ 

! b Low-income housing aedit 

(1) From section 42(j)(5) partnerships for property placed in 

service before 1990. . , . . 

(2) Other than on line 12b(l) for property placed in servicebefore 

1990. .._ 

. . . . . . . 

cm-vice after 989 ‘ . . . . 

(4) Other than on line 12s(3) for property placed in 

. . . . . 1226DC-00000022 

j d Credits (other than credits shown on lines 12b and 12~) related 

__ T.1 i 14a Depreciation adjustment on property placed in service after 1988 

., ‘

:.; :. : 

.::< ;; 

b Adjusted gain or loss _ 

. , . . . . . . 

c Depletion (other than oil and gas) . . 

=or Paperwork Reduction Act Notice, see page 1 of lnstructlons for Form 1120s. Cat No. 115230 Schedule K-l (Form 1120s) 1994 
BEVERLY HILLS MAGAZINE 

.m*.--------. -- 

__. -. - ..__, - _ . . . __-- - lOBOO SIIARES COMMON .STOCK NO PAR VAI.l?E 

q/ ,//(/cl-/ 

MAkCIA LEWIS 

~SdCRETARY/~RLASllRER DEBRA FINEXMAN 
were w&ten out m fd accordmg to bppbble laws or regukions. Abbrewatim in addition 

JTTEN As joint tenants with rig& of mrvivomhip and TENENT 

not 8.3 tenants in common UNIFGIFT?!5NACT 

TEN COM As tenanta in common CUST 
h I 

1226-DC-00000025 
1226-DC-oOOOOO26 
2064 ~- 

MEMORANDUM 

October 23, 1995 

TO: 

FROM: Ann McCoy 

RE: Resume - Monica Lewinsky 

Today I received the enclosed memo from Patsy Thomasson, Deputy Director ofthe Ofice of 

Presidential Personnel. 

I will let you know immediately if I have any further information from patsy’s office. 
MEMORANDUM 

October 17. 199.5 

TO: ,” ANN MCCOY 

FROM. PATSY 

RE RESUME - MO 

cc Maggie Williams 

Thank you for taking the time to forward the resume of Monica Lewinsky 

situation is very tight with the lack of budgets throughout the government. 

The job 

We will keep her resume on file and forward it to appropriate agenctes If.openlngs 

become available. 

VOO6-DCXKNO3749 
12215DC-oOOOOOO1 
SORMAN H. COHEN’ 

COHEN AND RANDALL-' 

COUNSELLORS AT LAW 

March 26, 1993 

Hr; Walter Kaye 

475 Park Avenue 

New York, NY 10022 

RE: Beverly Hills Hagazine 

Dear Walter: 

At your suggestion, Deborah Lewis called me today to discuss 

operations of the Magazine and your proposed Investment or loan 

of $30,000. 

Deborah and her sister are publishing the Magazine as 

partners. At my suggestion, they Will speak with their 

accountant and an attorney (to be recommended by their 

accountant) regarding formation of a corporation, primgrily to 

protect them from personal liability for debts of the Magazine, 

including possible libel suits. I told them that I would be 

available to their accountant and/or attorney if questions arise. 

It is probable that they will elect to be taxed as an "S 

Corporation", but this is not a certainty. They now know that 

the corporation should be organized before monies are received 

from you, to avoid their having personal liability on a loan from 

you. At the same time, you do not want to be a general partner 

of the partnership. In summary, from your view and theirs, your 

check for $30,000 should not be sent until a corporation is 

organized and it is determined whether YOU are to be a 

stockholder or creditor. I assume that they will contact YOU 

directly in this regard. 

At my request, Deborah Is sending me a sample issue of their 

publication. 

If I hear from them again, I shall tell you. 

Sincerely yours, 

1226-DC-00000002 Norman H. Cohen 
Beverly Hills Magazine 

10790 Wilshme Boulevard 

Suite *1401, Los Angeles, CA 90024 

Tel (310) 276.8252 l Fax (310) 470-4714 

March 26, 1993 

Mr- Norman Cohen 

Cohen & Randall 

1100 Franklin 

Garden City, N.Y. 11530 

Dear Mr. Cohen, 

It was a pleasure talking to you on the phone today. Please 

find enclosed two issues of our magazine. Response has been 

very good, as WC fill a niche here in Beverly Hills. There 

is no other four color glossy metropolitan magazine here in 

our'city. 

Our attorney has started proceedingsfor incorporation and 

expects it to be completed by Tuesday, March 30th. I hope 

we can complete anything you feel necessary. If there is 

something you think we should do, 

as possible, 

we will do it as speedily 

Thank you so much for your invaluable advice, and I hope 

to be talking to you soon. 

Best regards, 

1226-DC-OOOOOOO3 

Debra Lewis Finerman 

Editor 

DLF: sd 
1998 14:25 15168772736 

2071 

.C@lEN _ aND R&dDaL PAGE a: 

1226-DC-OOfM0004 
1226-DC-00000005 
Via Facsimile 

516-877-2736 

April 13, 1993 

& U.S. Mail 

Mr. Norman Cohen 

COHEN & RANDALL 

1100 Franklin Avenue 

Garden City, New York 11530 

Re: Beverly Hills Macrazine 

Dear Mr. Cohen: 

We enclose herewith the following items for your review and 

action purposes and pursuant to our telephonic discussion of the 

13th day of April, 1993: 

1. Articles of Incorporation of BEVERLY HILLS MAGAZINE; 

2. Stock Purchase Agreement for execution by your client; 

3. Form 2553 "Election by a Small Business Corporation" to 

be executed by your client as an additional shareholder. You will 

note that we need not only your client's signature but also your 

client's Social Security Number on this particular Election form. 

It is our understanding that your client will be transmitting 

the $30,000.00 purchase price directly to Mrs. Finerman. Once we 

are informed of the receipt of the payment by your client then, in 

that event, we ,will ensure the issuance of shares to your client 

(based upon our receipt of Stock Certificates from the 

lithographer). 

We thank you for your anticipated cooperation in this matter. 

Sipcerely, 

4&e 

HARRY C. TAUB 

HCT/dlk 

Enclosures 1226DC-oOOOOOO6 
2074 

CORPORATION DIVISION 

I, MARCH FONG EU, Secretary of State of the 

State of California, hereby certify: 

That the annexed transcript has been compared with 

the corporate record on file in this office, of which it 

purports to be a copy, and that same is full, true and 

correct. 

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I execute 

this certificate and a&x the Great 

SeaI of the State of California this 

APR i 1993 

1226”DC-oOOOOOO7 
2075 - 

1722754 

OF 

MAR 3 1 1993 

BEVERLY HILLS MAGAZINE 

I 

KARCH FONG EU, Secretary oi Sta!~ 

The name of this corporation is BEVERLY HILLS MAGAZINE. 

II 

The purpose of this corporation is to engage in any lawful 

activity for which a corporation may be organized under the General 

corporation Law of California other than the banking business, the 

trust company business or the practice of a profession permitted to 

be incorporated by the California Corporations Code. 

III 

The name and address in the State of California of this 

corporation's initial agent for service of process is: Harry C. 

Taub, Esq., 2049 Century Park East, Suite 710, Los Angeles, 

California 90067. 

IV 

This corporation is authorized to issue only one class of 

shares of stock; and the total number of shares which this 

corporation is authorized to issue is 10,000. 

Dated: March 31, 1993 

Ati - 

HARRY C. TAUB, Incorporator 

I 'hereby declare that I am the person who executed- the 

foregoing Articles of Incorporation, 

deed. 

which execution is my act and 

HARRY C. TAUB 
2076 -.. 

~04/13/Y3 12: 17 @NJ35 

STOCK P-SE AC- 

-_ TELISSTCCKPttRCHASEAOREEMENT ("AGREEXENT"), made effective as 

of this /-(=day of April, 1993, between B-EWF&Y HILLS MAGAZINE, 

a California corporation (hereinafter called "Sellertt or 

@Corporationw) and WALTER KAYE (hereinafter called "Purchaser"). 

J'?XTNESSETH: 

In consideration of the promises and mutual agreements 

hereinafter contained, Seller and Purchaser agree as follows: 

1. Representations and Warranties. Seller represents and 

warrants to the Purchaser that this Agreement is made in reliance 

on the following: 

(a) BEXERLY HILLS MnGAZIPrE (the "Company") has been duly 

incorporated and is validly existing and in good standing as a 

corporation under the laws of California. 

(b) . The Company has a total of 10,000 shares of capital 

stock (the "Shares"). The Company has no outstanding obligations, 

.I .understandings .---. --.. ..____ 

or commitments --.L- .-. . ..- . . . , - 

regarding the,.issuance .of . . . any . -. c- - 

additional shares or any options , rights or warrants concerning the 

issuance of any additional shares or securities convertibli-'into 

shares. 

._ 

(c) Seller has good, marketable and indefeasible title 

to and full power of disposition over and has full right to sell 

and transfer to the Purchaser all Shares to be sold by suoh Seller; 

and the shares are free of all lietw, claims, debts, or other 

1 

1226DC-OOOMOO9 
___- 

2077 

04;13/93 li!17 @IO06 

encumbrances, and shall be free of all such liens, claims, debts, 

ar other encumbrances upon their transfer to the Purchaser under 

-* this agreement. 

(d) Seller is authorized to enter into this Agreement, 

2. Sale of Shares. At the Closing, Seller shall sell, 

transfer, and deliver to the &chaser SO shares for a purchase 

price of $30,000.00 (for the terms set forth in Exhibit "An 

hereto). 

3. Closinq. The sale and purchase of the shares shall be 

consummated at Los Angeles, California on April 15, 1993 at lo:00 

_ 

a.m., or as soon thereafter as possible; by delivery to Purchaser 

of: (1) certificates for the Shares duly 

(2) against payment and transfer of consideration identified 

herein. The time of delivery and payment is herein called the 

"Closing Date**. 

4. Conditions of Purchaserfls Oblfcrations, Purchaser's 

obligation to purchase the Shares from Seller is subject to the 

following condithms: 

_. _ . . . :. . . ~ * .; .*e..- ._. . .-. . . . . - _.. -. 

(a) The representations and warranties of the Seller 

stated in Paragraph 1 shall be txue as of the Closing Dat'& and 

there shall have been no material adverse changes in the financial . 

._ 

conditions or affairs of the company between the date of this 

Agreement and the Closing Date; and a certificate to all of such 

affects signed by the Sellers shall be delivered to Purchaser on 

the Closing Date. 

1226-DC40000010 

2 
2078 

04&93 12:18 QlQO7 

(b) All of the Shares shall be concurrently said to 

Purchaser. 

5. Survival of Renresentations and Wartanties~. The 

representations, warranties and covenants of Seller hereih shall 

remain in full force regardless of any investigation or approval by 

Purchaser, and shall survive the delivery of the Shares to 

Purchaser. 

6. &ssi.snment. This Agreement shall be binding upon, inure 

to the benefit of, and be enforceable by the heirs, administrators, 

executors, and assigns of Seller and Purchaser. 

7. Governins Lay . This Agreement shall be governed by the 

laws of the State of California. 

a. v. This Agreement contains the entire 

agreement of the parties hereto, and supersedes any prior written 

or oral agreements between them concerning the subject mattercontained herein. There are no representations, agreements, 

arrangements or understandings, oral or written, between and among 

the parties hereto, relating to the subject matter contained in 

this Agreement, which are not fully expressed herein, 

-- . . .- - .-- - - . . . . . . . . . . - ._ .- . _ .-. .-_ 

_. 

5. 

. -. 

9. Att&ev's Fees. In the event it becomes necessary to 

* 

commence any proceeding or actions to enforce the provisions of 

this Agreement, or any and all of the terms and conditions thereof, 

the Court or other tribunal before which the same shall be tried, 

revLeved, and/or arbitrated, shall award to the prevailing party 

all costs and expense thereof including, but hot limited to any and 

all actual attorneys fees, costs, and/or other expenses and/or 

1226-DC-00000011 
ihtlreat in connection lrtmrsvithXN WITNESS WE&EREOF, this Agreement has been fully executed by 

the parties hereto on the date first above written at 

California. 

B-Y HILLS 

Los Angeles, 

*Sellern 

-BY 

"Buyer't 

1226DC-00000012 

4 
2080 

04&93 ’ 12!19 . 

Total purchase price of $30,000.00, payab'le in cash, on April 

15, 1993. 

1226-DC-00000013 
2081 

WALTER KAYE 

xwCM@ - 

0996 

Cnsh llfanagcment Account’ 

1226-DC-00000014 
2082 
2083 

LAW OFFICES OF 

HARRY C. TAUB 

A l OCESS~OII.C c c lRPo ll2049 CENTUR Y P AR K EAST. SUITC 71 0 P.0. BOX IO30 

LOS ANGELES. CALIFORNIA SO067 SANTA CRUL. CALIFORNla 9507, 

TLLECHONE (3101 +6.3-OIOE 

TELEPHONE (406l47*-54~~ 

FACSIMILE (406l479-s.6* 

FACSIMILE (3101 C66-0117 

May 17, 1993 

Certified Mail 

Return Receipt Requested 

Norman H. Cohen, Esq. 

COHEN AND RANDALL 

1100 Franklin Avenue 

Garden City, New York 11530 

Re: Beverly Hills Macrazine 

Dear Mr. Cohen: 

We enclose herewith, for your information and action purposes, 

the following documents with respect to the captioned entity and 

your client's (Walter Kaye's) interest therein: 

1. An Election by Small Business Corporation. Please ensure 

that you obtain Mr. Kaye's signature at the red check mark and 

return the originally executed Form 2553 to our offices for further 

processing with the Internal Revenue Service. 

2. Stock Certificate Number 3, issued to Walter Kaye, for 50 

shares of BEVERLY HILLS MAGAZINE. 

executes the tlreceipttl portion 

Please ensure that Mr. Kaye 

of the Stock Certificate and 

detaches same from the original Certificate. The original Stock 

Certificate should be kept in a place of safekeeping by Mr. Kaye; 

the executed tireceipt" stub should be returned to our offices for 

placement into the Corporate Minute Book. 

3. A fully executed copy of the STOCK PURCHASE AGREEMENT for 

your client's records. 

If you have any questions regarding this matter, please do not 

hesitate to call at any time. We thank you at this time for your 

continuing cooperation and assistance. 

HARRY C. TAUB 

HCT/dlk 

Enclosures 

1226-DC-OOOOOO16 
2084 
OIC-302 iRev. 8-19-W) 

2085 

-lOFFICEOFTHElNDEPENDElrlTCOUNSEL 

Date of rnnxripdon 2/14/98 

JANIS FAYE KEARNEY, black, female, date of birth 

w-, Social Security Account Number-, 

Special Assistant to the President and Records Manager, was 

apprised of the official identity of the interviewing Agent and 

the nature of the interview. Also present for the interview, 

conducted at the Wilson conference room of the White House 

Conference Center on Jefferson Place, were Associate Independent 

Counsel (AIC) DARRYL JOSEPH and Associate White House Counsels 

MICHELLE PETERSON and CARL RACINE. KEARNEY provided the 

following information: 

KEARNEY has worked at the White House since December of 

1995. KEARNEY's supervisor is NANCY HERNREICH. 

at the White House, 

Prior 'to working 

KEARNEY worked at the Small Business 

Administration as the Public Affairs Director. KEARNEY advised 

she has a background in journalism. KEARNEY is responsible for 

the Daily summaries, which document the President's activities. 

KEARNEY works on the summaries throughout the day. 

KEARNEY advised the summary is a compilation of many 

things including the summary of morning meetings chaired by the 

Chief of Staff, summaries of news stories, and input from other 

meetings and events taking place in the White House. KEARNEY 

advised her records are not as detailed as the Presidential 

diaries. BARNEY advised she and NANCY HERNREICH decided what 

was to go into KEARNEY's summaries. 

KEARNEY advised that the purpose of her summaries is 

for an historical record of the Presidency. The summaries may 

include some movements of the President, but tracking his 

movement is not the purpose of the summary. 

KEARN?ZY advised she recently did a computerized 

"search" on her summaries and came up with no "hits" on the name 

MONICA LEWINSKY. 

Invcsdganon on 2/4/98 at Washington, DC File I 29D-OIC-LR-35063 _ 

. 

by -- Date dicaud 
2086 
WIM STATU DIsnLIcT cwar 

IOL Tnc DIITAIm or WunaIA 

mm-----------a--* 

2087 

Muki-PagC April 8, 199 

Pow 

cu*D JUG? uoI:s1Ts: teont10004 p*w 

lo. Jm-18 ?ro*lwnuol echod410 roz 6/24/W 71 

,. “: co. Jw-1s ?r.mLCmClol *ml* zor 1/4/w II 

----------------. 80. Jw-21 ?r o *lCo tlo l l -0 ror 7/1b/Sl 80 

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hrwoy, Apti 1, lrn co. au-26 ?Nrl~arlal achdml. mr ~/1~/~? 04 

T80 t.ahony or JAW5 r8Ts wADJuT -0. u&on In 80. m-2? Pr.*lCnthl -1* I*; 12/11/~7 a4 

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-2 P-4 

C01TCUTI I PROCEEDINGS 

2 whereupon, 

“ItYL55: l .,. 3 JANIS PAYB KEAR NBY 

4 wascakdasawi&sscmd,aRcrhavingbandulyswomby 

J.nls I.yo R.OCH, . 5 thcForcpuscmofthcGrandJwy,wasaamincdmdtcstifii 

6 as follows: 

C-0 JVIX UmlSIT5: 7 EXAhIINATlON 

"0. m-1 t-ry or soy 21 8 BY MR. BlNHAR 

“0. JTK-2 rro*loorrIol schoau1* rot ./2S/S~ 43 9 Q Good morning. Ms. Kauncy. C&Id you state your 

MO. Jw-3 rreml~arhl l ehdulm rot lO/ll?Sb 4s 10 name and spell your full name for thz record? 

“0. m-4 ?crsl~rtl~l selmdu1* rot 10124 11 A My name is Janis Fayc Kcamcy, J-a-n-i-s F-a-ye 

*ti 12/11/M 48 12 Kza-r-n-c-y. 

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.o. m-i l 09is0a 01 l 0a010 r0r 2124197 50 14 wii webothwofkfortheIndcpcn~~Kcn~ 

“0. Jrs-7 l 0db nu01 l -lo rot 2f21 m 64 

-- 

IS We’re doing an investigation of a uiminal invcstigatim of 

“0. Jw-r r~ac0nuti wh0wi0 rot 3m1w 65 16 possible violations of federal law, including perjury, 

“0. Jw-s rrmsl~nrl~l l meAl* ror J/29/51 66 17 obstruction of justice and umspky. Do you~dmihnd 

No. Jll(-10 ?Lo slUItI~l l ll.&l1* ror 4/l/91 67 18 that? 

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"0. m-12 ?raBlCntIal l tI.dUh Ior 511157 6s 20 Q WC arc both associate indcpcndmt counsels. 

no. Jt-K-13 rr*m1~nc1~1 l CnomJl* ror 112197 72 21 Thisisthccourtrcportcrandthcsearctkpmdjurors. 

"0. m-14 PromIdortIol rchodulo for 5124197 ?3 22 Wh you give answers to any of thk questions 

no. JrK-15 r~0~id0~r~0i 9ch0dui0 r0c 5130197 14 23 today,youhavetogivcanaudibhnwcrbocmIscwhatyou 

no. Jr+16 Pr.rldwltl~l 9crwau1* rot 6111197 1 15 24 sayisbcingrccordcdandplawtrytospc&up. Doyou 

“0. m-11 rrrmidwlr1a1 rchduh rot 6/M/91 76 z understand that? 

Divcrsificd Reporting Scrviccs, Inc. (202) 296-2929 

Page 1 - Page 4 
1 A YCS. 

2 Q Andwhatyoudosaykrcambcusaiagainstyouin 

3 anotkr grand jury or any legal procedings. Do you 

4 understand that? 

5 A YeS. 

6 Q If you have a lawyer outside, you have the right U 

7 gooutandspcaktothclawyuatanytimethatyoufcclis 

8 w. Do you understand that? 

9 A Yts. 

0 Q And you’ll have a rcaso&Je opp&tunity to consult 

1 wilh)Qllrlawyu8nytimeyoudogoauuidc. Youm8ykmw. 

2 but your lawyer can’t be in kc with you. Do you understan 

3 that? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q I understand that you do have a lawyer here today 

Page t 

II 

:2 

:3 

,4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

!O 

!I 

!2 

D 

!4 

Y 

appeariafrozltofthc~juryMdIwaat~omake~ 

un&rstandtkdiflcraras betwear&. l’bcf-kindof 

pcrsonisatargctandatargctisdcfrncdasapcrson 

about wllom tbeprose&or or tk grand jury has substantial 

cvidalcetIlatIiaIUtbcpasoqthctlug&totkcommissiaa 

ofacrimeandwbointkjudgmcntoftkprosccutorisr 

putative defendant Do you understand what I’ve just said? 

A Yes. 

Q Allri& Youarcnotatargctatthistimc. 

Do you understand that? 

A Yes. 

Q Ofcourse,youalsoundcrs&udtbatthu%isnoway 

that anybody can ever promise anyone else that they wil 

never be a target ever, just krausc that’s impossible to do. 

Do you understand that? 

1 is that correct? 

2 A That’s co3 Q And could you state the name of your lawyer for the 

4 record? 

5 A Dan Standish 

6 Q Would you spell that, plcast? 

7 A D-a-n S-t-a-n-d-i-s-h 

8 Q Now, you need to know that we, meaning Ms. Wii 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

3 

3 

I 

2 

1 

I 

5 

5 

I 

5 

3 

1 

Page 

A Yes. 

Q But right now, you arc not a targ& The saxmd 

category of witnesses is called a subject and a subject is a 

person whose conduct is within tk scope of the grand jury. 

Do you understand that? 

A YcS. 

Q Okay. A subject would be a person who falls in 

wi&ca~ory,apcrsonwhoisengagadinclclivitythatthe 

grandjuryisintastcdin~dthatcouldbtasJimplessin 

thccaseofabankrobbuyapusonwhowaswaitinginlk 

whcntbcbankrobbayoccumzduptothctclIerwhogavcthc 

moncyovcrtoasecurityguardinthebankorevcnincludiq 

apcrsonstandingoutsidctbebankwhosawtbcbankrob~ 

get away. Do you understand that? 

A YCS. 

MdI,Ihccourtrtpo~Md(hc~djurors~allbormd 

bymoathofsuzzcy. l’hatmcansthatsubjccttosomcvcry 

Ml d&cd cxcqltions we can’t go out 8nd anaounoc to the 

world, or anybody, for that matter, what you’ve said and 

what’s gone on today. Do you understand that? 

A YCS. 

-_ 

Q 1 want to go over somt of those cxccptions With 

you, but as a general matter, we just can’t talk. If you 

wuetotcstifylatc.ratatriaIandyouwcrttosay 

wm&ingtbatwasdiff~taatod&witbwbatyousaid 

today, then your testimony could be ma& public in that 

setting. Do you understand that? 

A YCS. 

Q We also have certain people that work with us, 

including R)I agents, and for invcstigativc purposes it is 

somctimcs ncazssary for us to share what goes on in the 

grand jury with them, so we will do that under artain 

Q Okay. That’s what a subject is. As a technical 

matter, because that’s such a broad catcgoxy, you’n a 

subject. Do you understand that? 

A YeS. 

Q Tkrc’s a third informal category that’s dcvclopcc 

I amongcrimkllawyasandproszcutorscallalawitncss~ 

I that is for the group of people who are subjects who = jus 

I purely witncsscs. In the example I gave you before, tht 

I pasonwhoisjuststandingoutsi&thebankandwatctrcstbc 

; robber fla the scene. Do you understand that? 

.- 
2089 

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1 

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1 

1’ 

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pagtg Page 11 

I A Yes. 1 itagain? 

2 Q Youareawim Doyouun-dthatyouartz 2 A Spccid Assistant to tk President and Records 

3 awitness? 3 Managu. 

4 A YCS. 4 Q All right. And before you got this job, was thcrc 

5 Q Okay. And, obviously, just like with a target, we 5 someone eke who kid that post? 

6 canncvcrpromiscyoutbatyouwih~ways remainawibxss 6 A No. 

7 cvcrbecauscthatsjustsxmhingthatwtcan ’ tdo. ’ Doyou 7 Q So it was a job that was newly created whcD you 

8 un&rstand that? scamcon? 

9 A Yes. 9 A ItwasncwIycrcattd. Yes. 

0 Q Now, you’re he today bcxause you’wz rcccivcd a JO Q What do you do as Special Assistant and Records 

J sub@cna from the grand jury. Is that con-cct? 11 Manager? 

2 A COITCCt. 12 A I work dixctly for the Director of Oval Office 

3 Q Did the subpoena rcqucst that you bring along any I3 Opaaths and my dally functions include maintaining fits 

4 documents? 14 onnx.nrdsthatmmcintotbcOvalOfliiandalso1ucatc 

5 A No. 15 srmrmarics Q chfulkb of tbc day8 ’ sciKxlllJc of l&at hllppem 

6 Q Just you for t&imony? 16 with th prcsirkncy from day to day. 

7 A YCS. I7 Q WhoisthcDinxtorofOvalOffrccOpcrations? 

8 Q Now,youneedtolrnowthatyou’vcbccnswom 18 A Nancy Hcmrcich. 

9 totcllthctruthbytlxgrandjuryfoxwoman. Doyou 19 Q Ail right And she is your supervisor? 

o undcrstandthat? 20 A Yes. 

1 A Yes. 21 Q H=hb=yorp ’ stlpdsotsinayoucamctothc 

2 Q And if you intentionally say something that’s 22 WhiteHouse? 

3 incmcc~ if you missuic a fact or you lie under oath, 23 A Yes. 

4 then you can be prod for pcrjwy, which is a f&my, 24 Q lhcrccordsthatyouk~,hcfomyoucanmztothc 

s which car&s a possible scntcnce of jail time and a fine. 23 White House, do you know if anyone tlrc kept those rcc~&? 

Page 10 plge Ii 

J Do you understand that? 1 A No, I don’t know. 

2 A Yes. 2 Q Doyouknowwhtthtrthttypeofrccordsthatyou 

3 Q Now, hh. wixth is going to bc asking you the 3 IcccpcvencxistcdbcforcyoucamctothcWhiteHousc? 

4 questions this morning. If there arc any questions that 4 A No. 

s artunclcu,plcascaskhaotanybodytlscwhoasksyoua 5 Q HavcyoucvcrscenanyrccordsIikcthconesyou 

5 qucstion,bcca~thacmaybcatimewhenthc~djurors 6 kccpthatprc&tcyourtimeinthcWhiteHousc? 

7 willaskyouqucstions,tonstatcthcqutstionssothatyou 7 A Sure. The schedules and the diffcrcnt information 

8 fully understand km. 8 that I maintain, yes. 

3 A Yes. 9 Q And do you know who kept those before you got 

3 Q And if you don’t ask for a clarification, we’ll JO there? 

I v that you understand the question. 11 A Thmwasnooncinthispositionthatkcptdzm, 

2 A Oktty. 12 but I don’t know whcthcr somconc else did or not. 

3 BY MS. WJRTH: 13 Q Okay. Andwkndidyoubcginagain? Dxunbcr’95, 

I Q h’kbmey,canyOutcl]uSyour~c? 14 yousaid 

5 A I’m 44 yc~ old 15 A Yc.S. . 

5 Q And what is your occupation CulTctltly? 16 Q Okay. Now, what do you physically sit? Wlmc is 

1 A I’m a Special Assistant to the Prcsidcnt and 17 your work station in the White Houac? 

1 Records Manager. 18 A I’m in the West Wing, on thc,first floor. 

3 Q And how long have you held that position? 19 Q Okay. And whcrc do you sit in relation to whe 

1 A. Since Dcccmbcr of 1995. 20 Nancy Hanrcich sits? 

I Q And what did you do bcforc that? 21 A I’m down the hall from Nancy Hcmmich. 

2 A I worked at the Small Business Administration. 22 MS. WIRTR Okay. I’m going to mark this map as 

j Q And for how long did you do that? 23 Grand Jury Exhibit JFK, for your initials, and this will bc 

I A Roughly two and a half years. 24 Exhibit 32 bazause thcrc are a number of other exhibits that 

i Q Now, the position that you cufiently hold, what is 25 I’m going to show you that have already been marked. 

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Multi-PagcTY 

Page 1: 3 

1 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFK-32 

2 was marked for identification.) 

3 BY MS. WIRTH: 

4 Q I’mjustgoingtoaskyoutolookatthis. It 

5 purportstobcamapoftbeWcstWing. 

6 A bf.tII-hmm. 

7 Q Andlookingatthatmap,doyouseonthcmapthc 

8 place wbcrc your work station or office is? 

9 A Xtvouldguessthisisthtarwthatmyoffli#is, 

0 r&$lthcrc. 

1 Q Okay. IfyouwouIdjusttaketbisgmcnpcnand 

2 mark with your initials JFK wbcrc you sit. 

3 Okay. And, for tbc record, you’ve marked a spot 

4 tbatistotbckftofthcdiagram&tcentcr,undcratath 

s box marked lobby, cormct? 

6 A Ye& 

7 Q Okay. And somcwbat to tk kft of tbc Roosevelt 

B Room and somewhat to the right of Room 113. 

9 A YCS. 

3 Q Okay. Is that ofiicc all yours or do you share it 

1 with anybody? 

2 A I share it with 0th~ people. 

3 Q Okay. who else do you share it with? 

I A Theres ’ a tmmtary here, Ju.x Gayle Turner. 

I Q Who? 

Page 15 

1 It’s Erskiac Bow@ who is the Chief of Staff, hc holds a I 

2 saCxstaffmati.ngand1ancndthatmettingandIusually 

3 record information from that mating. 

4 After that mating, I may or may not attmd 

5 aaothcrmaztingwithNancyHcrnr&~ lhoscmatingsax 

6 not mguIarly sckduled, but from time to time, sbc bold 

7 mctings j&t of tk Oval Offia staff. 

8 A&r that mat& my day is complctcly dcpaxknt 

9 onwhattkRc5i&nt’sschahlkhasandIwiRalttaldcvc!nts 

JO cirmcttingsorifhego&ra~frumtimetotime,~ 

11 ~travtlwiththtPrrsi&ntand~tIdoisdnoniclc 

12 what is happening during the day, cvcnts that take place 

13 anrJotm-ts that k makes. 

a. 14 Ifhzhasmccti.ngssucbasmcetingswithpeople 

I5 fmmoutsidc,amstitumcym&tingsorcdbinctm&tingr,I 

I6 wiUsitinonthosamc&ngsandnmrdthostmatingsas 

i 17 part of my job. 

1 18 Q Now,amtkrctimcswbcnforreasonstbatmaybc 

i 19 you can explain to us you don’t always travel with tht 

a 

. 20 President? 

d 4 21 A Yes. 

a 1 t2 Q You always do travel with him? 

. 4 t3 A No, I don’t. 

a 1 I4 Q Therearr:timcswhcnyoudon’t Wknyoudon’t 

a 1 15 tnwelwithhimorifyoudon’tgooutsi&thcWhitcHcnu.c,~ 

Page 14 Page 1, 

I A June Gayk Turner. I sit km. A staff assistant 

1 sit.s~JMcccaCunuon. AndKrisEagskwritshat. And 

I also an intern sirs kind of in bctwun tbosc two. 

I Q Okay. And has that always bacn your work station 

I sina: you’ve ban at the white House? 

5 A YeS. 

1 Q Okay. By tk way, what is your telephone wttcnsion 

1 Q And have you bcld that number since you’ve been 

Ithcrc? 

! A Yts. 

I Q Okay. Can you - before I ask you that question, 

I you said that Nancy Wcrnrcich is your supervisor. 

i A YCS. 

i Q Is there anybody eke besides yourself that 

’ performs your duties? 

I A No. 

t Q Okay. All right. Tell the grand jury in as much 

t detail as you can what you do, 

A I can tell you by telling you what I do going by 

I oae&y,thisiswhatI&whcnIfirs~coolctorkinthc 

I morning. 

Iusuallycumetoworkamund7~0inthemoming 

i and at 7:45 tbcm is a senior staff maztinn that I attend. 

April 8.1998 1 

1 foruample,ifkgocstoam&tin&say,iaNcwYorkoron 

2 ti other side of town in Washington, if you don’t travel 

3 withhii&who&esyourncordingfunctionwhilcyou’renot 

4thz? 

5 A No one. No one does it I utilizn information 

6 thatisbrougbtbackfromtktriptodomymcor&ng. 

7 Q Andwhodccideswhmyouattax!somcthingandwkn 

8 you don’t? 

9 A It’s usually a judgment call between myself and 

1 o Nancy Hemreich 

1 1 Q Okay. Anddoyoudiscusstbatonadailybasis, 

1 2 which events and things will you’ll be attending, or not? 

1 3 A Noton adaily basis. No. 

1 4 Q Okay. But you gcnually have an idea, for cxampk 

1 5 in any wdc what things you’re going to and what things 

1 6 you’re not going to attend? 

1 7 A On a day-today basis. 

1 8 Q Now, the senior staff mating that you told us, you 

1 9 attend that every morning? 

2 0 A YCS. 

2 1 Q Those arc Monday tbrougb Friday7 

t 2 A YCS. 

Y 

21 

2 L 

3 Q And Erskine Bowks runs tbosc? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q Okay. And who else attends those, just gentrally 

a- - _ 
Page 1; 

1 speaking? 

2 A Senior staff. The deputy chief of staffs, the 

3 cummlmications advisor& the cabinet sxtetfuy, people who 

4 are senior staff members. 

5 Q Okay. Does Natq Hemreich attend those meetings? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q DoesBettycurric? 

8 A No. 

9 Q Does the Pmsidcat? 

0 A No. 

I Q* Now, you said that often you will also have a 

2 meeting with Nancy Hemrcicb, not every day but - 

3 A hI%dhCS. 

4 Q &r&&s. AndyousaidthatthoseareOvalOffict 

5 meetings. Who attends tbosc? 

6 A Oval Offke staff, who is made up of Betty Curric 

7 ICris Eqpkov, myself, Rcbau Chnmm, ad Nmcy Hunt&A 

8 Those arc the iItUnCdia* &al Office staff. 

9 A YcS. 

.O Q Now, at the senior staff meetings, typically what 

:I types ofthings are discussed? 

2 A Basically things that are going on with tbc 

3 Prcsidmt, what events are going to be held during the day 

4 or somctimts tbcyll ’ speak of what’s happening the next day. 

.5 Each senior staff person will talk about their role in thal 

Page 1I 

1 or what tbcir office is doing as far as tbc events. 

2 Q And typically bow long do those meetings last? 

3 A Ten to fifteen minutes. Fifteen minutes usually. 

4 Q Do you take handwritten notes? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q’ And guxr&y your meetings with Nancy Hanreich, 

7 if they occur, bow long do they last? 

8 A Five to ten minutes. 

9 Q And w&e do those take place? 

0 A In tbc Betty Currie’s arca and I’m not sure of the 

I official nanxz for it, but it’s the ama that Betty Currie 

2 sits in and Nancy Hem&h sits in and Kris Engskov from 

3 time to sits tbcrc. 

4 Q And generaIly what is tbc subject matter of those 

5 meetings? 

6 A The Pmsid&t’s day. ‘Ibe s&d&. what things 

7 spccificdly Kris and Bay would nazd to know bccausc 

8 they’re more immcdiatcly involved in his scbcdulc. 

9 Q Now, when you discuss with Nancy Hcmreich what 

o cvcnts you’ll be attending, does that tic place at those 

.I meetings or privately bctwzcn tbc two of you? 

2 A Usually not No. 

3 Q Usually not at tbosc mcctings? 

:4 A No. It doesn’t t&c placcthrre. 

:s Q So it’s one on one bctwccn you and her? 

2091 

Multi-PagcW 

I 

April 8.1991 j 

1 

Pqc l! 

1 A Yts. 

2 Q Okay. Now, you said that gcncrally speaking yoc 

3 attend that mat&s, you follow the Pxsidcnt around, you 

4 kccpareeordofwhat’sbappcning. Whattypcsofthingsdo 

5 youattmdwbaetbtResidcnti.sprcxntmanavaagcday? 

6 ~tslakcanexampkwhcrctheevcnlsomrinlhcwhitc ’

7 House. What tlvps of things would you be present for? 

8 A Cabinetmcctings,whznhcbasbiscabinethcads 

9 canelnMdlYtulaztswithtbn. congmsrial8l~fmn 

0 timctotimt,wbat congr&onallcadascemcinandtky’~ 

1 talking about specifiie issues. Outrwcb nxxtings wbm 

2 constitueneics come in and talk about different issues. 

3 Different policy mtxtings. 

4 Q Andwbcnyoutakc-Itakeityoutakenotcsof 

5 those meetings? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q And do you record who’s present during tbosc 

8 meetings? 

9 A YCS. 

0 Q And1 A ?lmzy’rr: not word-for-word or every person, but - 

2 Q Doyousrmnnarizrwhathappauintimccti~ia 

3 your notes? 

4 A Yes. 

s Q And wbcn you travel with the Prcsidmt, wfitlhtr 

prge2( 

1 it’sinW&ingtcmaoutoftcnqdoyoudoessntiaUythc 

2 same thing? 

3 A YCS. 

4 Q Now,what&you&withtbenoksthatymkcq? 

5 A Iusctlxzmtoinputintomycomputer. Idor 

6 summaryofwhatevuevcntormcet@orwhatevcrandinput 

7 that into the computer. 

8 Q And do you do that on a daily basis? 

9 A Yes, I do. 

D Q Doyougcncrallydotbattbcsamcdayasttr 

I meeting? 

2 A Itryvcrybardto’dotbatontbcsameday. 

3 Q Andwhatbapparstothatmmmaiy? Whuedocsit 

4 go? 

5 A The Original? 

6 Q Wc’llgettoyournotcsinamcuncnt,butthc 

7 stmmmry tbrt you input into tk computer, fqr “h”JNtqac ‘ &Y 

B youdotbat? Wbcmdocsthatendu$? 

9 A ItStiIySthCXt. 

D Q In tbc computer? 

I A Yes. 

2 Q Do you gcncmtc any record from that? 

3 A No, I dont. ’

I Ms. WltllI: I’m going to show you Grand Jury 

5 Exhibit m-1. which con&s of five pages, so it’s marM 

17-Page20 

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2092 

Mull 

Page21 

I JFK-l-l through JFK-1-S. 

2 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFK-1 

3 was marked for identification.) 

4 BY MS. WIR-M 

5 Q Im ’ just going to ask you to look at that and tell 

6 u~whctkrthatrsumeth@thatyou~ ’ And youll ’

7 sa tha4 for the record it’s marked ndactcd, which 

8 iIddCSthatXOWhOfthcWdbgOnthathasktntaktl 

9 out. - 

0 A YCS. Yts,I do. 

1 Q You do mcognim this? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q whatisthis? 

4 A Thats ’ input into a computer. Thats ’ a summazy of 

s tk day. 

6 Q Okay. So this is what you’re talking about wlxm 

7 yousaythatyougointoyoureomputerandyoutrytodoit 

8 OnthcSamCday. 

9 A Yts. 

0 Q Youputinasummary of CWytbing that’s golx OLI 

1 that day. * 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q So you just keep this in the computer, you don’t 

4 gencrateadocumcntthatyoupassaroundfmmyourruxirds? 

s A No. No. 

Page 22 

I Q All right. Okay. So this is a typical example of 

2 wbatyouwoulddoattkaidofthedayaftcrfollewingthc 

3 Rsidcnt arouud and attending whatever maSings k had. 

4 A Yts. 

3 Q Do you use only your ow~l notes and your own 

6 personal experience in creating this record or do you 

7 sornctimes us infotmation that you get from ofhu people? 

8 A I use also information from other people. 

9 Q And can you tell the grand jury what kinds of 

D things you would typically get from otkr people to complcti 

I your record? 

2 A Yes. I use things such as the President’s 

3 schedule, which is generated on a daily basis; a briefing 

I addendumthatcomcswithtks&alulethatgivcsanovuvieui 

5 ofwhatcachcvcntisandsomctimtsttllswhyht’sdoiag 

5 certain things and who’s going to be involved in tk events 

I I use annotated schedules that Kris Engskov does, his 

3 personal aide who travels with him, and if tlx s&d& 

3 deviates at any time he will note that on his sclxdule. I 

1 use those also in my records. 

I Q Okay. Now, you mentioned a presidential scbeclulc. 

z Is that gcncratcd on a daily basis? 

1 A Yes. 

I Q Is hat Monday through Sunday or Monday tbmu& 

5 Friday? . 

Page= April 8.1998 

Page 23 

1 A Monday through Sunday. 

2 Q Okay. And w%o gencnWi that? who ~catcs that? 

3 A That comes out of the sdrduling offia. Tht 

4 President’s ScLduling offia. 

5 Q And do you know who runs that offia? 

6 A %t#UInits= 

7 Q Anddaes&acatetbisdoaxncntbaselfordoyou 

8 know if soxxone else does? 

9 A I do not how. 

0 Q ~shcakoiuiath=cstwin~? 

1 A IthhkSo. 

2 Q Now, you also mahnal an annotated schedule that 

3 &is Engskov annotata And ks ’ cuncntly - what is his 

4 title CutTcntly? 

5 A PerSOd Aide t0 tk Prtsitht 

6 Q And is that the same prcsidcntial s&d& and he 

7 just annotates it - 

8 A Yts. 

9 Q -orisitadifferentschcdtde? 

0 A No, it’s tht same schedule. 

1 Q Tht presidential schedule that you mentioned, whc 

2 is that circulated to on a daily basis, if anyone? 

3 A The senior staff is the only people that I know. 

I other than tba< I don’t know. 

5 Q And what types of things are noted on the 

Page i 

I presidential schtduk? 

2 A What mnts be’s going to be doing for the day. 

I What times. What types of meetings. Basically. 

6 Q And if he has office time or down tinx, I don’t 

S knowwktitwouldkcallcd,whatwoulditkcallcdontbt 

s sdrcdule if it’s not - 

7 A Both of those. Offla or down time. 

$ Q Okay. And do those mean the same thing? 

P A llcycan. Ithinkoffiatimemeanshc’sgoingto 

) beinhisoffia. Downtimqhtcouldbeinhisoffia 

I during down time. 

I Q Orhecouldbejustrcstingor snlzmvhtfst3 

I A Yes. 

I Q Okay. If the President were going to be engaged 

i inscunc&gpersarallikcabaircutora~withhis 

i lawyer, would those things be noted on the presidential 

’ sctcdule? 

I A Thcymayormaynotbc. lean’t nzmcmbcx for sure 

1 whetlxx tlq would be or not 

1 Q Doyouknowifthac’sanotkrschcdukbcsidstk 

presidential schtdult that’s widely circulated as you’? 

! discusscd,wktkrthat’sattotkrscllcdulethatamtais.ls- . 

; youknow,mompasoaaZmundanematterslikcahahutora 

mating with a lawya? 

A IhconlyothcrdocumcntthatIknowofwouldktk ‘

e. Y -. 
2093 

Mwlti-Pscft lu Auril8.1998 

------ - b‘ ’ s -r ~-~ 

past25 Page 2i 

1 ushers’ log. 1 saidamomntagothata~visitmightbtnotedanthc 

2 Q what iS that? 2 schedule, correct? 

3 A That’s a log that’s generated out of thz rcsitkna. 3 A It could be. 

4 Q Andwhattypesoftbingsarekeptinthatlog? 4 Q Doyouhowunderw+at&umstancesitwouldbc 

5 What kinds of information? s and what circumstances it would not be? 

6 A Ahaircut. Imean,ifhtgotahaircut,thatwould 6 A No. 

7beintkc. 7 Q Do you know whcthcr it would only,bc on tl~ 

8 AJUROR: EXltSCmC. hUhavetOspca]rUp. 8 sckdulcifitwasap reamtnged visit? 

9 Ms. WxRm sun. We’ll tIy. 9 A No, I don’t know. 

0 THE W?mESS: I’m sorry. My throat is kind of 10 

1 sore.- 

Q You examine the annotated schcduks, you told u! 

11 wrrwt? 

2 BY Ms. WIRlH: 12 A IrevicwthaL Yes. 

3 Q Doyouneedsorrxwateroranything? I3 Q DqmgcttJn=tvnyday? 

4 A No. No. 14 A No, not cvuy day. 

5 Q Ifyoudo,justletusknowandwccanstcp 15 Q Whcndoyougetthcm? 

6 outside. 16 A Igctthmnduringthcw& Ixnaygctthcmtwicc 

7 A Ijustsaidthatahaircutwouldlikelybeonthc 17 duringtkwuk. 

8 usherslOg. ’ 18 Q h you dcci& wkn you get them? 

9 Q What about things like a visit from a friend? You 19 A No, I get tkxi from Kris Engskov. 

D know, wirethcr that visit is prearranged or just a drop+ 20 Q And what dictates whctkr you get a copy of the 

1 visit. WouldthattypeofthingbenotaionthcPnsidcntr ’ 21 annotated schedule? 

2 schcdulc? 22 A I think hc decides each day and when ht’s fmishtc 

3 A It could vezywcll be. Yes. 23 one or two days, he’ll give them to mc. 

4 Q Have you sazn the ushers’ logs? 24 Q But do you basically get every day? Not on each 

s A Yes. 25 &y,but&yougctafull~‘sLctvAulcDtEgartpoint,m 

Page 26 Page 28 

I Q Okay. Would that type of thing also be on the I annotated schedule? 

I ushers’ log? 2 A IhaveeverydaythatKrishasdone. 

5 A Yes. It couldbe. 3 Q Dots hc do it every day? 

i Q Woulditonlybeontkuskrs’logifitwasa 4 A Hcdoesevayday,butsom&nes~wukmds,tbuc 

5 visit in tht rcsidena? 5 won’t be an annotated schedule. 

6 A IwouldhavctogucssonthatbtcauscI’mnotsmr. 6 Q Okay. So at sonx point, you get the annotated 

7 Q What would lx your alucata.i guss? And we’ll take 7 acbalulcforcacbwc&mamiq@busincssda~Monday 

8 it with the understanding that it’s a guess. 8 through Friday. 

9 A I don’t h~ow. I really would rnthcr not guess, 9 A Yes. Yes. 

D butI-Ithinktkrcsidenavisitsareontlxushcrs’log. IO Q On his annotated schedule, would k typically nob 

1 Q Okay. But you don’t - and, again, if you don’t 11. personal visits? 

2 know,justtcllmc,butifsomcmc dfoppcdinatthcOval 12 A I have seen personal visits on his annotated 

3 Oflice, would that k on tbc ushem’ log? Or you don’t know 13 schcdult. 

4 or no? 14 

5 A I don’t know. 

Q Doyouknowifevqpemmtal$sitisno+lartbe 

15 annotated s&cd&? 

5 Q Okay. AndItakeittbcmamUSbQS,pcQplewbom 16 A No, I do not know that. 

I title is usher, who kap this log? Is that true? 17 Q Now, let’s talk about t&phone calls. On the 

t A Yes. I8 Rcsidcnt’s sclxdule, tlx one that’s circulated, not tk 

7 Q Whcrc do they gcncrally work? What’s tkir work 19 annotated one, arc telcphonc calls noted on.that? 

1 station? 20 A %mdimc$thcy~ Yes. 

I A The residcncc is all - I know thcy’rc in tk 21 

1 rcsidcnco area. 

Q And that schedule is created before the day even 

22 bcgins,cmat? 

1 Q And they’re not Sam Service pcoplc. 23 A Yes. 

I A I don’t know that. 24 Q So if telcphonc calls arc on that sckdulc, is it 

i Q Now, getting back to the Prcsidcnt’s s&cd&, you 25 because thcyrc ’ anticipati or bccausc thcyrc ’ plaad that 

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1 aftcrthcyoccur? 

2 A Thcy’rc anticipated. 

3 Q Andtkpbonecallstbatyou’vcsecnontk 

4 Pzkdcnt’s schcdulc, arc they of an official natum? 

s A Yes. 

6 Q hHhcyso~ptrsonal? 

7 A No. NoncthatIcanrecalL 

8 Q Now, on tht annotated s&dulc that Kris Engskm 

P givcsyuu,dotshenotcphonccaUsthercaswclI? 

D A I’dbavetogucss,mally. Ican’trccallwhttkr 

I hcdocsornot. 

2 Q Now,tkmcordthatyouhavcinfrontofyouwhich 

3 is Grand Jury Exhibit JFK-1. I’m going to ask you some 

4 qucslionsahoutthaL Al&aswC’venotcdforthcrecord, 

5 it’s haa highly r&ctaL but let’s look for a monxnt at tk 

6 last two pages, wbicb I think is JFK-l-4 and 5, okay? 

1 A YCS. 

B Q Lct’slookatSfora moment Attbetopoftbc 

* page,itsays”?bcPmsidartspokcto’audthcnthaearer 

1 numhcroftimcslista&oLay? Startingwith-itlookslikc 

I 617 a-m, is that right? 8:31 am. 

L A ImnOt ’ SW. 

I Q Alittlebardtorcad. 

I A hh-hmm. 

i Q Butfortbcrecord,itlookslike6:l7a.m., 

Page 30 

21 

8:3 1 a.m., what may he 1038 am, 196 pa, 2:06 p.m., 

! 7:29 p.m. and 7:07 pm. Does that look right? As kst m 

I canrcad? 

A Asbcst,ycs. 

Q Okay. Does this portion of tbc record that you 

I keep refer to pcrmnal conversations in pason or telephone 

1 conversations or both? 

1 A Those are tclcpbonc conversations. 

I Q Okay. And somctimcs you write in tbcre the 

I Pmsidcnt spoke on tht phone, correct? 

A Yes. 

, 

, Q Andsornetimesyoudon’t 

1 A Yes. 

Q Okay. But thisportion refers strictly to 

tclcpllonc calls. 

A Yes. 

Q All right And wkrc do you get tbc information 

that you put in this portion of tk mcord that you keep? 

?he specific times. I’m sorry. 

A Yes. Yes. Tbosc conx from tbc telephone logs. 

The presidential tclepbonc logs. 

Q And who do you get those from? 

A Those cornc from Nancy Hcrnrcicb’s office. 

Q And do you get those on a daily basis? 

A Ycs. 

I 

! 

I( 

II 

1: 

I! 

14 

I! 

It 

11 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 

- 

5 yourrcwrd. 

6 A No. 

7 Q Andwhtzinfornmtionhashom~would~ 

8 hcwhcmthcruuncsoftkpcoplcwithwhomthcl’resi&,t 

P spokearcmcordedonyournxord? 

0 A Iwouldguessso. Yes. Idonxordthzoamesof 

1 pcoplcwllomlEspokewith 

2 Q Youdotbiscvayday,right? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q And typically you would say soothing like tbc 

S Prcdcnt spoke to Jane Da, 697 a.m., or John Smith, 

awhatcvcr? 

7 A Yes. Yes. 

8 Q Okay. And all of that information comes off tk 

9 tclcpbonc logs that you just told us about, 

D A Ye. 

I Q Now,doyoumcordeachandcvayphooccallfrom 

2 the pllonc logs that you receive? 

3 A I’mnotsuretbatIdo,butusuallywbatIdoisgo 

1 downthtphartlogaadListnamts,butIcan’tguanmt&you 

S thatIputMybody’snamcdowntbuMvuytimc. 

Page j. 

I Q Well,w&&isyourgoal? Artyoutryingtomaka 

I complctertcordofcvayphonccallkm&thatdaythat’s 

I rccordcdinthtlogs? 

I A Yes. I guess tk only time that I would probably 

i noSifht*s~gtoanushcrandit’sinthtrtsidcoa 

6 or - you know, something like that. 

7 Q Andyoucouldgetapbonclogforacalllikctbat. 

B A Pardon? 

3 Q You could rcaive a phone log that would record I 

) callbctwunthtPmsidcntandanusl& 

I A Yes. ‘Ibtlogwouldhavcanycall,soitwouldalso 

I includcacalltoanusbcrortoastewardorwbatevcr. 

I Q whocmtcsthetclcphonclog? 

I A I do not know. 

i Q Isitinbandwritingwbcnyougetitortyped? 

i A It’s typed. 

’ Q Doyouknowwbotypcsit? 

I A No. 

’ Q Doyou~wktkrthct&phonclcgs~intcaded 

1 torlYmdevayticphonemvcrsitionthattbePrtsidcntk 

involvtdinmrydsy,wk~kmadtor~Mdtbtphan 

call? 

A I do not know. 

Q Do you know who would know? 

A No. 

PagcTy April 8,1998 

Pagc31 

1 Q And tlx times that you’ve noted tkrc, arc those 

2 tk timcs wkn tk tclepllone call began? 

3 A Yes. To tbc best of my knowlcdgc, yes. 

4 Q Okay. And you don’t DOtC duration oftkcallon 
2095 

MlIlti-P-US- l%t 

*.*--a a gs” I.##.rnY, ’ .I/” 

Page 33 Page 3 

I Q Tk names that you typically record on this 1 Q No? 

z documentinthisportion&tingtothephoaenxords,can 2 A No. 

3 youtelluswhctherthoscnamcsarebothofaburintssMnvc 3 Q Does anybody read this? 

4 andapcmmalnature? 4 A No. 

5 Doyouhwwktbcrsmnctirncsyoulbcordlknamcs 5 Q Its ’ just a nmning - 

6 offriendsthstindditiontonamtsof~lcwithoff?dal 6 A Yes. 

7 business? 7 Q CanyoutcllthcgrandjurywhatthcpurposEof 

8 A I’msurcIdo. 8 yourkepingthisis? Wasitcvcramvcycdtoyouaspartol 

9 Q Okay. ~arcyausureyoudoinclu&thcuamcsof 9 your instructions or your duties why you’re doing thisi 

0 friends? IO A Yes. This is for archival purposes. ms is a 

1 fi Yes. 11 historical chronicle of the presidency that will bc used 

2 Q Andevcrytimethatyousecafricnd’snameon 12 thccndofhispresi~forwhatcvup~historical 

3 a phone log, do you include that friend’s name in your 13 ptuposq archival purposes. 

4 record? 14 Q Mcaningtl-cNationalArchivcaorhisown 

5 A Yes. Imcan,I’msurcIdo. Thconlytimcthat IS presidential razords? 

6 IwouldndincludeaaamewouldbelikeIraid,ifit’oliLe 16 A HisprGkntialrccords. Yes. 

7 himtaIkingtoamiUaryaidcorstcwardwhichhasno 17 Q Aadtoyour~andI~wI’vcaskcdthis 

6 historicalpurpcKC 18 b&re,butletmcttryoocmaetimc. Toyourknowlcdgc, 

9 Q Doyouhavcanyi&awlaatsocvcrwbcthcrtbcphcme 19 vGS8nyefr~madehcforeyougotthlxtokCzpsomcsorto 

D logsthatyourccdvc~acamplctcrecotdofevcryphanc 20 xcord like this for his pltsidcntial records? 

1 callthattbt~dcntwasinvolvedinonlrny~varday? 21 A Not to my knowledge. 

2 A I have no knowlcdgc of that. No. 22 Q Okay. But the records that you use in this 

3 Q Have you ever bad any discussions with anybody 23 document, those pmxistcd your tame in the White House. 

4 about whcthz thats ’ a comp&c - whether tht logs arc a 24 A Yes. 

s cmplctcrccordoftkphonccallsthatksbazncngagcdin ’ 25 Q Sothisisjustanattmnpttoputthcmall&@xr 

Page34 Page 31 

I eitbzr receiving or making cvcxy day? 1 in some fashion. 

2 A No. Not that I cannxall. 2 A YCS. 

3 Q Anybody ever asked you that question bcforc? 3 Q All right. Now, you mentioned a few miautcs ag( 

0 A ThconlytimcthatIhavcbcenaskcdthatqucstion 4 thatyousomctimcsrecordpcrso&visitsinyourruxrd,in 

s was from the Presidents ’diarist, Ellen McCalhran, who keeps 5 this d ocumcnt thllt you genmtc, correct? 

5 allofhislogs,andshcmayhavcaEkcdmctoasksomooncin 6 A If its ’ on some of the docunxmts that I get, I put 

1 theoffxciftbacwasaczillthatwasmadcornotmadcor 7 it into thecomputer. Yes. 

3 whatever that wasn’t on there. 8 Q Okay. So if you saw a personal visit rccordcd in 

? Q When did sbc ask you that? 9 tk prcsidcntial schedule or the annotated rchcduk, you 

1 A Oh, I don’t rcmcmbcr, but I think I recall her 10 wouldrecorditautoaWicallyknzinthcdocrmrrrtthatyou 

I asking because sk keeps track of all of this. 11 create? Ordoyouusesomjudgxmntrsto1 Q Was she asking you the question that I asked you, 12 A I use some judgment. I mcan,‘if it’s historically 

! which is ‘is this cyc+hing, every call that lx’s ma& or 13 intaesting or it would scrvt some purpose histc&ally, : 

I rcccivcd that day? 14 would put it into the computer. 

5 A No, I don’t think it was cvcn that. I think it was 15 

i maykttrrtwa&&ullanbxcandrkdidntknowwk ’

Q Okay. All right. But with respect tocalls other 

16 than the usher, military tnx: thing, do you exercise any 

1 itwasradskwouHaskifNancykncworBc%tykncwwkthis 17 judgmcntthcntastowhichtoxcofdadoyourccudthcm 

I pa-son was so that she could record it as diarist 18 dl? 

I Q Okay. Wbcn you say “on thc~c,” you mean on the 19 A AsfarasIcan rcrnmbcr, I lccoTd tbcm all. Yes. 

I record that you crcatc? 20 Q when youercceivc teicpbonc logs, do you som&xs 

A Not on my record. No. On the phone log 21 SE t&phone calls bctwam tlx Prcsidcnt and any of his 

! Q Okay. So what, is this a situation wkre - I 22 lawyers? For example, like David Kendall or Rohat Bennett 

I mcq dots Ellar McCathran mxive a copy of this document 23 A YCS. 

I th3t you create? 24 Q Andarcthoscrccordcdinthisdocumcn t as well? 

i A No. 2s AYCS. 

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1 Q Art you familiar with the name Vexnon Jordan? 

2 A YCS. 

3 Q Havcyoucvcrsccnhisnamccmanyoftkt&pbonc 

4 records that you ncord? 

5 A Yts. 

6 Q ArcyoufMliliarwitbtkname&nicakwi&y? 

7 A YCS. 

a Q fiavcyoucvcrsaenhuaamconanyoftberclcpbont 

9 records-that you record? 

0 A No. 

1 Q Havcyouevcrsccnhernamconanyofthcvisits 

2 that you’ve recorded in the mrds? 

3’ A No. 

4 Q heyoudoneanykindofsauchtosuwbttbaha 

5 name appears anywhere in your reuxds? 

6 A YCS. 

7 Q Can you td the grand jury what you did7 

B A Iscar&dmycomputcr. WhenIgottLrqucst 

9 from the counscllor’s office to scar&, I did and I found 

D nothing. I found no indicatim that ha name bad ban input 

I anywhuc. 

2 Q Okay. Andyourscxu&covcrcdallofyourrocords 

3 since you began keeping tlzm? 

I A YCS. 

s Q Okay. And similarly, if the Prcsidcnt’s lawyers 

Page 31 

. 

4 

! 

t 

i 

1 

6 

1G 

11 

11 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

21 

21 

24 

2! 

I were to visit him and thats ’ ruzordal on tk s&aiulq would 

2 lhl1dsoksalwhhg~1youwuuldrsordinyourdocummt 

I that you keep? Have you done that on occasion? 

I A I have. 

i Q And when the= is a visit from his lawyers noted 

i in his schedule, whether it’s the presidential schtdulc or 

1 the annotated scMulc, would you always inch& that or, 

I again, do you exercise some judgment on wkthz you include 

I that? 

I A I wouldnt ’ - I can’t think of any reason why I 

wouldn’t include that. 1 would include that 

, Q Okay. And kvc you cyer received any instnxtions 

i on that issue at all? 

A No. 

Q As to whether Gou should include that or not? 

A No. 

Q And returning again to tht subject of Vernon 

Jordan, to your memory, have you ever included a visit from 

him in the record that you hp? 

A Yes. 

I Q Okay. Let’s just turn to the frost page of this 

! d~~JFl(-l.MdifyoucouldjustwalkthcgrandjrPy 

I through what tkse different catcgorics arc. It begins with 

I s&or staff meeting and thats ’ Mr. Bowl& meting that you 

i referred to earlier? 

Page 39 

1 A YCS. I 

2 Q Okay. And on this day, Friday, June 7, 1996, it 

3 notes “Day off for the R&&t cxccpt for 9:30 mating k 

4 agnxd to.” Is that CotTat? 

5 A Ye& 

6 Q And tbzn you have a category entitled “Ec0110mic 

7 News.’ Dasthisrcfertosom&ingthat’sdiscusstdatthe 

8 mating? 

9 A Yes. 

0 Q Okay. And is that typically just like media type 

1 xwS or some hanal information or both? 

2 A Both. Yes. 

3 Q AndistbesamehucfaNatianalScaxityCauxil? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q Are these catcgorics gcatcd day aftu day, 

6 WY? 

7 A Yes. 6cncrdy,thcyarc. 

B Q AndLegal. Whatwouldthatnferto? Is that the 

9 White House &mscl’s Off]=? 

3 A Yes. 

I Q Okay. Dotheyattmdthismcctinginthcmorning 

2 as well? 

3 A Yes. 

I Q Dots Mr. Ruffattcnd? 

s A Yes. usually. 

Page% 

I Q And then the next page, Political? 

! A Yes. That’s tht political offla. 

I Q Okay. And Cabinet Affairs? 

I A Yes. 

i Q Whorcpo~thue? 

i A TIE head of the cabinet affairs. 

, Q And lk next page, it says Todays ’ News.” Is that 

I kind of a summary of mcxfia news? 

1 A Exactly. 

, Q Who provides that? 

A That-fromtkclips. wChav~CIipscvuy 

morning, so basically I go through thae. 

Q Sothisisnotncctssarilysom&ingthat’s 

discussed at the meeting. 

A Oh, no. 

: 8 

9 

JO 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

I 

24 

25 

Q ~clipsarehandedouttoevuybody. 

A bdy. 

Q All right So it’s just what’s going on in the 

world on this particular day. 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. All right. Now,Ijust want to backtmck,, 

foramoma& Wkuyoustartaltbisjob,wboucplainai~ 

duties to you? 

A Nancy Hunreich. 

Q And do you rcmembcrwbatsktoldyou? Asbestas 
2097 

Mnlfi-Paae TM Anril II lOOIl 

--r-- -9 -asPage 41 Page 4: 

1 youcan rcmetnbu. Generally speaking. I Q Have you ever printed this out otlzr than for 

2 A Basically, that it’s a new position, but one that 2 diswvery requests? 

3 shcfcltwasvayimportant. Andshchadspokaiwithsvcnil 3 A No. No. 

4 hist4riansandpcopltfromthcArchivcs~feltthatoneof 4 Q Does anyone edit what you input? 

5 tk things that was always missing from tk prcsidcnts ’ 5 A No. 

6 offiwu m wbo cbronjcM whet bppaxd fmal day to 6 Q Does anyone look at it? 

7 day. Andthatkindofwasthcdccisiontohingmcinanddo 7 A IthinkNancyhaslookcdatitonceortwice,but 

8 that. 8 not on a regular basis, no. 

9 Q Okay..Anddidshegiveyouanypammetemasto 9 Q Wkn sk looked at it, did she give you any 

o what sht thought should be in the record that you keep? IO suggestions or give you any input? 

1 A ‘Sk redly didn’t Basically, I undemtood that 11 A Shetoldmeshethoughtitwasgood. Sl~liked 

2 sbcwasintue5tedinmckecpingaebmnieleofwbatbappenal12 whatIwasdoing. 

3 fromdaytodayasf~ashispolicyissucs,thetypcsof 13 Q I’m just going to take you through the records th 

4 innovationsthatwtrrbtingputinpl~byhim,justhis 14 ~providaitousfromyourrr##dicccpingonebyau~ 

s presidency, and it was pretty general. IS justbaveyoui&ntifytkmandsomct&aI?lluweaumc 

6 Q Didsbegiveyouanyguidanoe whatsocva about what 16 questions for you about than. 

7 types of pemcmal information should be included in the 17 A okay. 

8 scbcdde? Referring again to dtkrmatings ortd~ 18 MswlRTlfi SomaybeyoueanputtMoncasidcand 

9 calls, things of that nature. 19 wt’llturnnowtoJFK-2.~~isadpcumcnfaoatpq 

0 A No, she did not. 20 document. 

1 Q Hasshcevu? 21 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFK-2 

2 A No. 22 

3 Q I-&WC iou had any discussions with anybody other 23 

was marked for identification.) 

BY Ms. WIRTHZ 

4 than Ms. Hermcicb about what should go in this record? 24 Q Again, it’s marked redacted and it’s dated 

5 A No. 25 ‘Ihusday, August 29,1996. and it basically contains ate 

Page 42 pIlgc4 

1 Q Now, for tht record, tell us what docwncnts you 1 categoryofentrywithrespectto-isthistelephoneeal 

2 reaive that help you generate this record I believe you 2 again? 

3 mcntional the pfcsidcntial schcdulc, the ann0tatal scbcdulc, 3 A Yes. 

4 news clips. 4 Q That the President cithcr made or rc@ved, And 

5 A fight. s thcrearefivetimeshtedthcrr,correct? 

6 Q What clsc, if anything? 6 A YCS. 

7 A We t&cd about the tclcphonc logs. 7 Q Okay. Do you put those phone calls in any 

8 Q That’s right 8 par&h order, either ehronologicaIly - sometimes an 

9 A TIE presidential phone logs and the ushers’ logs. 9 thy out of order? Am the in order of importaxe? Or 

D Q Okay. 10 justosthcycomc’~yoyyoujustfacdthcmintothc 

1 A And just bricfmg matcrii?l that comes through the II computer? 

2 White House on diffcrcnt isstxs and different policies that 12 A I think I just fad thm into th computer. 

3 lxs ’ working on. 13 I see that’s out of order, but I have no idea*why it’s 

4 Q And for each of those records, when do you 14 like that. 

5 genadly get than? 15 Q Okay. There’s a caI1, for example, he noted 

6 A Tknz’s no s$ecific time. At th end of the day, 16 12:06a.m. ‘l”l~logsthatyoureeeive,ilctelep~log 

7 I may get thm. ‘Ik schedule, of course, I get in tlx 17 thatyounxeivc,dotkynotewlldkTaphonecallisrua& 

B morning, but the rest of the information I may get at the 18 from the Chral Offia, from the residara, or from aom&xn 

9 end of the day or tbc next morning. 19 ck? Doestbelegtellyouwbaetbcpbuneullwasmade 

3 Q Okay. And you told us that you generally tried to 20 from or reecived? 

I do this at tlx conclusion of every day? 21 A No. 

2 A Yes. 22 Q So thz log could refer to - do you know whetlcr 

3 Q How cuncnt arc you right now? 23 the log records phone calls made from the IFsichcc? 

4 A Im ’ up to today. From time to time, I go back and 24 A 1 don’t lmow. I don’t know. I could say I gwzss, 

5 input. 2s but I don’t know. 

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Page 41 

1 Q Okay. But sometimes youseephonecallsmadei 

2 the early morning hours, wrrect? 

3 A Yts. 

4 Q Okay. And you just don’t know wkrc a particular 

5 phone call was made from or received. 

6 A No, I don’t 

7 MS. WIRM: Okay. Ail right. Ids look at JFK-3, 

8 whichisafivcpagedocumen t marked JFK-3-l through 5 

9 - (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFK3 

0 was marked for identification.) 

1 BY Ms. WxRm 

2 Q Okay. This one starts with senior staff mating 

3 Leon. Isthath4LPanetta? 

4 A YCS. 

5 Q And it says “Tk President’s Mule today is 

6 down.” 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q Andyoutalhdabouttbatcarlic.r. ‘Ibatmtwsk’s 

9 basically on his own time? 

0 A No public events. 

1 Q Okay. sb it could mean he’s in the office or it 

z could be that he’s engaged in personal time. 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q All right. Now, on the second page of that 

5 &cuma&thacarcsomtnamcsmahnaiinadditiontothc 

Page 46 

I usual catcgorics, Lcgishtivc+ Cabinet Affairs. We SC Rah 

2 That’s Mr. Emanuel? 

3 A YCS. 

4 Q Would that note something that ht talked about at 

5 the senior staff meeting? 

5 A Yes. 

7 Q And the same for Jodie? Is that Ms. Torkelson? 

B A Yes. 

7 Q And beneath that, Mack. Is that Mr. M&arty? 

1 A Yes. 

I Q And Mr. Curry? 

I A Yes. 

1 Q All of those indicate matters that wert discussed 

I by those individuals at the meeting? 

i A Yes. 

i Q OVP is Office of Vice h&dent? 

I A Yes. 

I Q All right Now, tkse axe not personal meetings 

1 conducted with these people, these art matters that were 

I raised by tkse people at the morning meeting? 

A b3ctly. 

I Q Let’s look at the next to the last page, I think 

i that’s page 4. Is that right? 

A Yes. 

Q Where it says “Day Notes.” What arc day notes?, 

Ill 

1: 

II 

14 

l! 

1t 

li 

11 

1s 

20 

ip 

23 

24 

25 

Page 47 

1 A Day notes may k noa-off~cial notes, just samething 

2 that have nothing to do with his sckdule or events or 

3 whatmu. 

4 Q Canyougiveusjustlikeagcnaalcxampleofwhat 

5 wouldbeintkrc? 

6 A SomdhingthatmightbeinthcrcisthatCklsca 

7 eamcbytoseekrfathtrandtheymayhavetalked. 

8 Q Okay. Now, arc other family, relatives, friends 

9 notd in day notes as wtll? 

0 A Fromtimetotime. Maybe. 

1 Q ~thatyourdisedon? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q AndifChelseaeamebytoswkrfatlrr,wkrc 

4 wouldtlntbo- HowwddyouknowU~t7 Howwould 

5 youlmowtoputthatithe& 

6 A Itwuldhavebwncmtheushers’logoritwuld 

7 havebcenIwasaroundwlznshewaIkedin. 

8 Q okay. Ahight Ancl,a&n,onpa&5,thatlast 

9 catcgoty, here wc say “President talked via telephone. 

0 A Yes. 

1 Q Andjustsotkreeordiaabsolutelyelearonthis, 

2 this category is always telephone ealIs. 

3 A Yes, it is. 

4 Q whcthcr you say that or not 

5 A Yes, it is. 

Page+. 

1 Ms. WIFtTH: Okay. kt’s look at JFK-4, which is a~ 

2 eight-page d oeumwt marked JFK+1 through JFK+8. 

3 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFK-4 

4 was marked for identification.) 

5 BY Ms. WIRm 

5 Q And this is Thursday, October 24,1996, is that 

7 Tight? 

3 A YCS. 

? Q And, again, MT. Panetta is still ti Chief of Staff 

1 attbattimcbccauscitsaystiorstaffmactinghisnam, 

I I&on, is noted thuc, WITed 

I A Yts. 

1 Q Okay. On page 2, who is Gene? 

I A GtncspCrling. 

i Q And what was his job? 

i A National Economic Council. 

1 Q .Now, the next page - I’m sorry, could I look at 

1 that just for a minute? 

I A ThiSoat? 

I Q No, no. Tht whole thing. I just want to see 

WhatIdidbac. Igavcyoutoomuch. Imadcamistakc. , 

I All right 

Actually, JFK+1 through 3 is Thursday, Oetobe~ 

24th, just cheek me on that. 

A Mm-hmm. Okay. 
U..lc;-D-m.. lu Am&l ll 1OaP Av*Luu-* up .ay.** u, .ZI” 

Page 49 Pagt51 

1 Q And JFK44 through 4-8 is actually another day. 1 timeonthcrc. 

2 A okay. 2 Q Okay. And tlzn the last two pages of that 

3 Q -day, Dccembcr 17th. Is that right? 3 document, which would bc 7 and 8 - 

4 A Yes. 4 A Mm-hmn. 

5 Q Okay. So that Exhibit 4 will cneompass two days, IF Q 1tsays=Rcsidaltspmtaholltanhollrtakingwhire 

6 then. Allright. s0thclastpagetba1,pagc+3,thoseare 6 House offkc photos with staff.” Would then bc listed 

7 the Y&phone calls? 7 undaathtk-ofpeoplewhoscpbotographs~takl 

8 A Yes. 8 withhim? ~youknow? 

9 Q Okay. Now, tberc’s OIY: the that’s noted that’s a 9 A Idonotlcnowwhatwouldbcundcrthat 

D cQnfcllmcccal17 10 

A- YCS. 

Q Okay. And tht last page, actually running over 

1 11 fram7to8,7kPrcsi&attalkaiviap~‘tbcearetk 

2 Q Would you list all the participants in the 12 phonccall!L 

3 confcrcncccall? 13 A Mm-hmm. 

I A YCS. udy. 14 THE FOREPERSON: Ms. Wirth? 

s Q And you would get that from a phone log? 15 his. mm: A bmik? 

5 A Yes. 16 TIE FOREPERSON: It’s time for a brrxk 

1 Q -9. ’ 17 MS. mm: Okay. That’s fine. 

8 A Andlctmcbackup. 18 Sowc’lltakc-bowlongofabrcak? 

3 Q !hrc. 19 THE FTXEPERSON: Ftitcen mix@cs. 

1 A 1 woddn’t list cvayonc in the confcrcnce Cal] 20 MS. ~m Okay. l’h rctuming &out - 

I ~mostofthtpeoplconthccoafcrcncecallwouId& 21 

!jtststaff. ’ 

THE FOREPERSON: At a quar& ‘til. 

22 

I Q ki 

MS. mm: Yes. About a quarter to or a minute 

23 aftcrtll8t. 

I A But I would list the principals. 24 Th8nk you You c8n step outsi&. 

i Q Okay. And that’s, again, a judgment thing based 25 (Witness cxcusch Witness recalled.) 

Page 50 P8gc 5; 

.oll- 1 BY h4s. WlRm 

2 A Yes. 2 Q Ms. Keamcy, just a couple of follow-up question 

1 Q Wouldthephanelognxordcvetysin&personttmt 3 tothingsthatwediscusscduulicr. Thcushxst was on tlx confcrencc call? 4 TIlE E3>REPERSOM Im ’ sorry. 

5 A Yes. 5 hfs.wIlznI: Yes? 

5 Q All right. Okay. Then h’s look at page 4-4, 6 THE FOREPERSON: I’m sony, 1 fosgot to remind you 

1 which is a new day. Thy, Dcccmbcr 17.1996. IIS ’ agaio a 7 that you an still under 08th. 

i Mr. Paxtta day, right? 8 THEbvmJE!s: 7ll8nkyou 

) A Yes. 9 hls.wIRTH: lYumkyou 

1 Q Andifyoulookatthethirdpageofthatdocument, 10 And wc have a quorum? 

1 which I guess is 6,4-67 11 THE FOREPERSON: Yes, wc do. 

1 A YcS. 12 MS. mni: And the are no unauthorizd person 

I Q Towardstbctmttcnqwebave7hcPmsi&znthlda 13 prcscntinthcgrandjuxy? 

I f~policytcammecting~thcOvalat1030Mdtben ’ 14 II?E RXEPERSON: No, there arc not. 

i the&s another item below, Rime ‘ Minister John Bmton of IS 

i Irelandat lOam.‘-~wouldyou-~thcactualtimcof 16 

Ms.wIRTR Tb8nkyou 

BY MS. WIRTII: 

’ meetings and when would you not? 17 Q Anyway, a follow-up question. On t)r: ushxs’ iq 

1 A At tht end of the day, usually, I would zccord the 18 that you talked about? 

1 timeofthemccting. 19 A Yes. 

I Q Okay. Butaswcgothughthcscdocumcnls,sonx 20 Q Dccs the ushers’ log contain tclcphonc calls, to 

of than have the times of specific meetings and some don’t. 2 1 your howlcdgc? 

A Mm-hmm. 22 A To my knowkdgc, no. 

Q When do you put the specific times? 23 Q what kinds of things dots it contain? 

A Usually if the annotated schcdulc has a specific 24 A Pcoplc’s names arc on them. 

time, I will put that on. If it doesn’t, I’ll lcavc an about u Q visitors? 

.- - -- 

I 

1 

5 

Ii 

11 

1: 

I! 

14 

13 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

,23 

24 

25 

2099 

rage 4Y - rage 52 

Divcrsificd Rcuortine Scrviccs. Tnc. (2~21296-2929 
Mul 

Page 5: 

1 A Visitors. Times. And basically, that’s it 

2 Q DoyouknowifthtPItsidcntwtrttomakcacall 

3 fromthcrcsi~orrc&vcacallatthcrcsi&Uxrcsidcncc 

4 that would be recorded? 

s A No. 

6 Q ltcouldbcrcoordcdonthcpbonclogstbatyou 

7 nxcivc8 A Thcycouldbc. 

9 Q Abut you just don’t know7 

IO A Right 

I1 Q AndalltbcphonccaUstbatyourcaudcomcoff 

I2 the phone log? 

13 A YCS. 

I4 Q Okay. DidyoutxasxMtmicaIzwi&@sruuncai 

I5 anyofthcrcoordsthatyoumccivcdthatyoullscdtoinput 

16 into your record that you create? 

17 A No. 

18 Q Did you receive any mstnmtions at any time with 

19 Rqccttowhathashistoricvaluc? 

IO A No. I mean, cxwpt for just discussion on what 

!1 historians bavc talked to Nancy about or people from tb 

D Archives offict have talked to Nancy about. 

!3 Q Okay. And generally what would that be? 

!I A That would be general. Basically, things that 

!S would be of interest to people who arc writing about the 

1 pmsidcncy, about this pmsidcn~ historians who arc 

2 interested in what happens from day to day during a 

3 president’s tcnutc. 

4 Q I’m sorry, tcnurc? 

5 A Tcntuc. Yes. 

6 Q- Okay. Inyourwork,youhavcscacvidcna,havc 

7 you not, of citbcr late night or early morning tclcpbonc 

8 calls? Telephone calls, for example, betw&n midnight and 

9 six a.m.? 

0 A Could you repeat that? 

1 Q You have sari cvidcnw in the work that you do of 

2 tclcpbonc calls either made by tbc President or rcocivcd 

3 bctwwn midnight and six a.m. 

4 A sure. Gnthclogs. 

5 MS. WIRTII: Okay. Now, I’m going to show you thiu 

6 additional docunue that I will mark as JFK-33. ~~-34 and 

7 JFIC-35. 

B (Grand Jury Exhibits Nos. JFK-33, 

9 JFK-34 and JFK-35 were marked for 

D identification.) 

1 BY Ms. WIRTH: 

2 Q The fust one is entitled “Presidential Call Log” 

J and it’s dated December 15,1997. Is that right? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q Okay. And do you mognizrc that type of document? 

April &I998 

1 

Page 55 

I A Yei. I 

2 Q Andtbispa&ularoncmcordsacallfromBeny 

3 Cunie to the Pi&dent? Is that co-? 

4 A ICant ’ td. 

5 Q Okay. 

6 A Iknowit’sBcttyCuxrieandBcttyC%ctalluxiti 

7 thcFWida&butIcaa’tteUyouwhcthcrshccaUaihiina 

8hccakdkr. 

9 Q Okay. In the left-band column, wlxrc it says out 

IO andincomingI1 A hffm-b 

:2 Q I-N-C, does that stand for incoming? 

.3 A Incoming. Ycs,Iwouldtbinkso. 

4 Q okay. ~docstbatmcantbatthecaiicamciuto 

s tk White House? 

6 A Again, I would guess so, but I really don’t know. 

7 Q Okay. But is this the kind of log that you work 

8 with? 

9 A Yes, it is. 

:0 QSoym&~tmardfcuy~~~purposeswbama&tbc ‘

1 call,soyoudon’tnuxs&ly2 A No. No. 

3 Q -conwmyo~witlltll8~ 

4 A Idon’t ThconlythingI’mconccrncdwitbiswitf 

5 wtromhttalksandIputtbtasmsthctimc,that’sallIprrt. 

Page 5. 

1 Q Okay. Andifynusaw,y~uknow,thatBcttyChic 

2 hadcallcdtkRsi&asyouknow,fromlWiWingphonc 

3 lo%s,wouldyouincl~thrtiayoursrmrmaryatthemdd 

4 cacbdailyd ocumcnt wbz you record pbonc calls? 

S A Iwouldmcordthat IfBcttyCurrie’taamcwasm 

6 this document, I would record it 

7 Q Tbisd ocuxmnt is also marked mdactcd, correct? 

B A Yes. 

9 Q Okay. And I’m going to show you JFK-u, which is I 

3 grand jury cxbibit, dated Januaty 9,1998. 

1 A Yes. 

2 Q And it’s entitled “Presidential Call Log Signal 

1 switchboard.” Do you know wllllt tllis is? 

1 A Idoknow. It’sacallloganditbastwoplxmc 

5 callswit. 

5 Q Isthisalsoatypcofd ocumwttll8tyouuscin 

I crc8ting your record? 

1 A YcS. Yes. 

? Q Doyouknowthtd.iff~ccb&vamGrandJury 

) Exhibit 33 and 34 in terms of who keeps this rcoord? 

I A No, I don’t I don’t. 

! Q Okay. But youuse -both 

I A I do. 

I Q And, again, if you received JFK-34 entitled 

i Presidential ‘ Call Lx” this reflects hvo bhonc calls with I 
3 Q EitbermadebyortoBettyCurriefiomthc 3 Q And, again, each of the pages here is marked 

4 President 4 redacted. Is that correct? 

s A Right. 5 A Yes. 

6 Q If you received this documen tandsawFktty 6 

7 cuRicsnamerccor&dtkteas ’

Q On page 2, who is Sylvia? It says ‘Sylvia’s weekly 

sotnamewhospoketothc 7 short-texm meeting.” Is that correct? 

8 Prcsidcntonthctclcphoneonth3tdayontwooccasions, 8 A Sylvia hf~ttheva is the Deputy Chief of Staff and 

9 would you record that in your record? 9 thisisam&ingbutit’snotJreJdevcry&eJc. Fronttimto 

0 A Yts. 10 timc,shcholdsam&tirythattakespJa+zimnrdiatelyafJcr 

1 c All rigbt And, finally, Grand Jury Exhibit J J &she’s morning meeting. 

2 ~~(-35, which is dated June 14,1996 and is also marked 12 Q Okay. And so this refers to Sylvia’s weekly 

3 redacted. Do youmcognimtbis document? 13 short-term matting? 

4 A No. I4 A Yes. Yes. . 

5 Q It is dated June 14,1996. Is that correct? 15 Q Okay. On page4 of this d ocumcnt, it says, 

6 A Ycs,it is. 16 7hc Rtsidcnt sat in ttre Oval,” Ws ’ the oval Offlicc, 

1 Q Haveyoueverscenadocumen t lilrc that bcfom? 17 correct? 

B A No. 18 A Yes. 

9 Q This document appears to contain times and 19 Q *For 30 tninutcs working on his spxh.' DES this 

D references like “The President talked with” and that blank, 20 docummtindicatewhattimekwas&iitkt? Atwhattim 

I “‘lh President talked with” blank The R&dart telephoned’ 21 of day? 

z blank, The ‘ Prcsidcnt was tclepboncd by” blank. Is that u A I’m not sure wbetber it does or-not. I dont ’ - I 

3 awuratci’ 23 don’trccallwhatwasonthat, 

t A Yts. 24 Q Okay. So for the portion that appears here thats ’

5 Q Okay. And there are tirncs associated with each of 25 not mdacted, you don’t see a time? 

Page 58 pagca 

I those events. You have not sxa this type of document in I A No. 

1 your work? 2 Q If tk President bad bad visitors during the time 

I A I don’t recall ever seeing this document 3 thatkwasintheOvalOffJotwcnki~onhisrpac4vveuld 

I MS.WIRTH: Okay. All right. Okay. Let’s pick up 4 that bc recorded beret 

i with JFK-5. Grand Jury Exhibit JFK-5. which is a one page 5 A I’m not sure. Possibly, if I had known. I’m suxe 

6 document and it’s dated Monday, December 30,1996. 6 I got this information from a document. 

7 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFK~ 7 Q Okay. And tell us, you know, if you do see 

B was marked for identification.) 8 rcfcmnce in the records that you receive of visits by 

9 BY Ms. WIRTJi: 9 visiton of a paschal q let’s say, wheo doyou inch& 

D Q Is that right? JO thoseinyourmcordtbatyoukazp? 

1 A Yes. JJ A Can you ask that again? 

2 Q It is also marked redacted on tbc bottom? 12 

A Yes: 

Q Sure. If in the records that you receive that you 

3 13 usetoctcakyourdocumaatyouratckrenccbvisitsofa 

I Q And it also contains the category of phone calls, 14 pus~~&natwetotheRcridatt,whendoyouputthemin 

5 wlTect? 15 yourdocuata~t? Doya,aJwayputUnniaa&ywtmramc 

5 A Yes. -- 16 judgment on that? 

I Q Again,withthenamcsofanypcrsonstheRckknt 17 A Iahostahaysputthosein. Ican’tthinkofany 

3 talked to taken out, is that con-&? 18 reason why I wouldn’t. 

8 A Yes. 19 Q And do you often see referenas to personal visits 

1 MS. WIRTH: Okay. Okay. Let’s go, tbcn, to JFK-6, 20 in the d ocuments that you receive? 

I which is a six-page document, JFK-IS-J through 6. 21 A Not oftcn,.but I do from time to time. 

1 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 1~x6 22 Q And have you ever put a persona! visit in your 

I was marked for identification.) 23 record because you observed it yourself7 

I BY Ms. WJR-JH: 24 A Yes. 

i Q ‘Ibis is dated Monday, February 24, 1997. Is that 2s Q Okay. And do you always put a pcrmnal visit that 

Divcrsificd Reporting Scrviccs. Tnc. (202) 296-2929 

Prtgc 57 - Page 60 
J bSidC¶It? 

2 A I havenot. 

3 Q %‘eyoueversamkrwithtbchcsidmtsaywtrcEc? 

4 A Isawhcratandioad&csswithlotsofotlxr 

v=Pk6 Q Do you rememberwknthatwas? 

7 A No, I don’t. 

B Q Doyouraxrdintheltcordthatyoukocpthcnamcs 

9 of all people who attend radio addrcsscs? 

D A No, I don’t record all people. 

I Q Other than the incicknt where you saw ha - let’s 

2 bdkaboutthatfora moment. wae you llnauiing tht radio 

3 address as well? 

4 A Iwasnotattending,butasapartoftlxOval 

5 0ff1cc,cmyom kind of works on tk radio addrrss, klps 

Page 6; 

I out. 

2 Q Okay. Andyousawhainthcmomwluzthcradio 

3 address was given? 

1 A YCS. 

5 Q What room is that? 

5 A I cant ’ recall because its ’ either given in the 

r RoostvcltRoomotthtOvalOlliaandvaguelyIlnncmbai 

1 being in the Roosevelt Room. 

a Q Okay. And do you how if she attended in the 

) company of anybody else that day? 

I A I do not. 

I Q I)oyouknowifshespoketothchsidcntthatday? 

I A I’m sure she did because everyone that was thx 

I did. Everyone took pictures and greeted the President. 

i Q Did you see her speak to tht President? 

i A Idon’t nzmtmhcrsuinghaspcaktotkRaidcn~ 

1 Q Otherthanthatoneuxasionwhcnyousaw 

I h4s.hwinskyattendin8amdioaddxqbavcyoucvcrsacn 

1 herinthesameroomwiththtPrcsident? 

I A Not that IcanrccalI. No. 

Q Have you ever seen lxr speaking to the President? 

A No. 

Q Have you ever hard from anyone else that she hat 

either met the President or spoken to him? 

A No. 

J 

J 

J 

J 

J 

J 

J 

J 

J 

2 

2 

2 

2 

2 

2 

! 

I 

t ’ 

I 

I 

II 

JI 

I: 

1: 

1’ 

J! 

J( 

. 1, 

II 

1s 

2c 

21 

2i 

122 

24 

2! 

J A No. 

2 Q And the ushers’ log does not contain phone calls, 

3 to your knowledge? 

4 A To my howledge, it doesn’t. 

5 Q Okay. Attheendofthisdocument,tMastpagq 

6 again,tlmsanotationoft&phomcalls ’ somcrimesia 

7 the records that we’re looking at there are many calls, 

8 somcthsjustafcw. Canyouexplaiatbat? Wbythatwould 

9 bethecase? 

0 A No. 

J Q hitjutbecausetkrecordsyoutewive, 

2 somaimtsyougttlotsoflogcatricsforphontcallsand 

3 sometimes you don’t’? 

4 A Yes. It’s based on the log. 

S MS. WIRTH: Okay. JFK-7 we’ll look at next, whir 

pagtb 

J is a four-page document. 

2 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. m-7 

3 was marked for identifxation.) 

4 BY Ms. WJRTR 

5 Q This is dated Friday, February 28,1997. Is that 

6 right? 

7 A Yes. 

B Q And each page of this is also marked &acted? 

9 A Yes. 

1 Q Okay. On the third page, it says ‘The Pxesidcnt 

I wmsjoiiintbcbctRamby.” WJmtJmsbao3ruJacmJ 

2 fromtbisd ocuma~t? Wouldthatbc,toyourkaowl~alis 

j of people who were in tlx Roosevelt Room? 

I A Iwouldthinkthatwouldbcapcxsonorptoplcora 

5 group. 

5 Q Okay. Ifitwcrethccascthatonthisdaythc 

1 Rsidcatdidatadiotapiq,andyousaidoxlicrthatwuld 

I killlJlcJtoosmlt~wouJdyarcirwouldyouwtJistaJl 

) the pwpk who attended the taping? 

) A I would likely not list all the peopk. 

Q Would you list some? 

1 A ~mctknes 1 WOdd, yts. 

I Q Andwktwouldyouuseinyourdmisiuntocboose 

I certainnamcstolistandnotothrs? 

i A If it was friends of his. ueo~lt from Arkansas. I 
Page651 Page6 

1 Q And this is also marked redacted. 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q And this records - it looks like just telephox 

4 ealls,basedonwhatwehaverighthcrc. 

5 A fight 

6 Q Okay. And’ again’ the names of anyone that the 

7 PresidaltqKtketodcm*tappcaronthis-t ncyve ’

8 ban r&acted out? 

9 ARighL 

JO Ms. WJlzTJ-k All right. m-10. which is a 

J J four-page document dated Monday, April 7,1997. 

12 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFK-JO 

13 was marked for identification.) 

14 BY MS. WJJtlHz 

IS Q ~isyourdoeumentthatyougeneratedl 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q And that’s tl~ correct date? 

18 Q Andthisisalsoyourdocument? 18 A Yes. 

19 A YCS. 19 Q And each page is marked rcdactcd? 

20 Q -l-hat you genemkd? 20 A Ya. 

21 A Yts. 21 Q AI1 right. And the last page on this document alsc 

22 Q And both pagts are also marked redacted, right? 22 records several telephone calls, eomxt? 

23 A YCS. 23 A Yes. 

24 Q Okay. And wlxre it says on the fti page under 24 Q And,again,withthcnamestakcnout 

I pcopie k bad worked with bcforc, cabinet manbcrs, ws of 

2 somesort. 

3 Q And this, again, is a document that you genaated, 

4 WITKzt? 

5 A YCS. 

6 Q okay. itll of thcst are that you’ve testified about 

7 sofar8 A YCS. 

9 Q - exazpt for tlx phone logs that I showed you? 

JO A YC!L YCS. 

JJ - MS. wmm Okay. All right And JJX-8 we’ll do 

12 next, which is a two-page document. 

13 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JRC-8 

14 was marked for identification.) 

15 BY MS. WJJLlJk 

16 Q This is dated ?hurs&y, h&h 13,1997, is it not? 

17 A YCS. 

“Today kfore depart@ on his North Carolina-Miami trip thi A Yes. 

Psge66 Page 61 

I morning’ the President ma& a brief, quite solemn press J Ms. WlRm: Okay. JFK-11. wh$h is an eight-page 

2 statement about tlx kiIling last night of seven Isneli 2 document. 

3 children by a soldier.” You wrote that? 3 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JJX-J J 

4 A YCS. 4 was marked for identification.) 

5 Q And do you make that statement’ that it was “quite 5 BY Ms. WJJtlH: 

6 solemn” based on your own personal observation of this 6 Q It’s dated Wednesday, April 16,1997? 

7 stawt- 7 A Yes. 

8 A YCS. 8 Q Andthisisadocunxn t you generated? 

9 Q - that the President made? 9 A Yes. 

10 A YCS. JO Q And each’ page is marked redacted? 

11 Q Okay. Okay. This one das not appear to have any 1 J A YCS. 

12 phone calls. Is that right? I2 Q Allright. Onthcscccmdpagc,youhaveundcr 

13 A I don’t see any, no. 13 7oda~aruiesofeventsthattoobplaceormccringrby 

14 Q The Presicknt was traveling that day and it says hc 14 specifx! tinx. 

15 left at 8:30 am.?.. 15 A YCS. 

16 A YCS. 16 Q Okay. And that’s taken off the schedule, the 

17 Ms. WJJLTII: Okay. All right JFK-9. which is a 17 F’rcsidcnt’s sclxdule? Is that right? 

18 one-page document. 18 A Yes. Iteouldhave-Imtan,iteouldhaxeome 

19 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JJX-9 19 from other things, but the schedule for sum was used in 

20 was marked for identifreation.) 20 this. 

21 BY hf!S. WJKJH: 21 Q Would you have attended any of tlxse meetings 

22 Q That is dated Saturday March 29,1997, cormct? 22 yourself7 

23 A YCS. 23 A No. No. 

24 Q Andthatisadocumen t you generated? 24 Q Okay. It says at the top “The Frcsicknt had a 

2s A Yes. 25 meeting’” for exampk, “in the residena from 1O:OO am 

Page 65 - Page 68 

Divmsificd Rcnortinn Scrvicc~. Inc (?f??\ ‘ 3W-3039 
1 CoxTwt? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q And that one inch&s one call at 12~23 a.m.7 

4 A YCS. 

5 h4s. WxRm All right JFlc-1% which is nine 

6 Pag= 

7 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFK-12 

8 was marked for identification.) 

9 BY MS. WIRTH: 

D Q This is dated Thursday, May 1,1997, con’cct? 

1 A YCS. . 

2 Q And this is a document you generated? 

3 A Yts. 

4 Q And each page is marked redacted7 

5 A YcS. 

1 1 Q Okay. So, for example, in the last few weeks, 

1 2 tk Pnsidcnts ’ ban out of town. Youve ’ bun doing hi: 

1 3 sckdule? 

14 ’ A Yes. 

1. 5 Q Ifyousawthathtparticipatcdinattltphwc 

11 6 callwbilckwasaway,dtkr&vingitax&ingitI’ 7 A Yes. 

II B Q -youwouldxeaxdthatinthcnxordthatyou 

I! 9 kept? 

21 D A Yes. 

2 1 Q Andwouldtktkbecauscyourcccivcdrlcgpegc 

2 2 thatixldicatc!dsu&aphoncaLuwascitkCIuEdcorK&tstived7 

2: 3 A Yes. 

24 4 Q ti that tk proctdurt is no diffcmt when he’s 0” 

2: 5 of town? 

I Page ‘I. 

I ARighLfighL 

1 Q Okay. Allright. And, again,justsothcrccord 

1 isclcar,youhllvcnoknowlajgewktbutkr#;ordstktyou 

1 I ruxiveareaaJmplctcluDrdofcvayphorlccaIltkttk 

1 5 Prcsidcnt citkr makes or razeives on any given day. 

d IA I have no knowledge of that 

. 1 

; 

Q Has anybody ever told you wkthcr it is - 

1 A No. 

5 ) Q - a complete record of that? 

I( 1 A No. 

II I MS. WlRTHi All right. JFK-13. which is eight 

Ii ! pages long. 

I! I (Grand Jury Exhibit No. ~~-13 

14 I was marked for identification.) 

l! i BY MS. WIRTH: 

16 i Q ‘Ihis is datd Friday, May 5 1997. Is that 

17 ’ comet? 

18 I A YCS. 

19 1 Q Andthisisid ocumcnt that you gcncratcd? 

20 1 A Yes. 

21 Q Okay. And each page is also marked redacted? 

22 A Yts. 

23 Q And,attkcnd,wchavcalistofquitcaftw 

24 phone calls. Is that corrxt? 

25 A Yts. I 

Page 7( 

I Q Okay. And, again, at tk end, tkres ’ a long list 

z of phone calls, right? 

3 A YCS. 

4 Q And one is marked “Conference call”? 

5 A Yes. 

5 Q And in your list at the end, which participants 

7 would you note for a confaena call in this category at the 

3 end? 

? A Wouldyourcpeatthat? 

1 Q Sure. Where it says “Conkma call”? 

I A Right. 

1 Q 11:25p.m.? 

I A Uh-huh. 

I Q Would you list all tk participants at the end kre 

i in tht conference call or just som? 

i A I would list the principals, who was involved, the 

r Rtsidmtandwbvertkprincipalpczsonkuastalkingto, 

I not the staff who would be on the confcxnce call. 

) Q Okay. And, again, the logs that you used to 

) gcnaa&thist&phoncportionoftkrccordthatyoukcep 

I donottcllyouwkrctkcallwasmadcf?om,ifthc 

! PrcsicbtmadctkcaU,itdotsnttcllyouwk&rkmack ’

I it from tk Oval Offia or from tk residence or from outs& 

I the Oval Offia. 

1 A It doesn’t spell it out and if it tells me by the , 
6 AJUROk CanIaskaqucstion? I

mjustcurious 

7 A4s.wIRm sure 

8 AJUROR &tkJFK-13-7,thencxttothzkst 

9 pagc,youhavc”IbcPrcsi~tatedinncr39:30pmand 

o r&red at lo:30 pm.” but in the day notes, you also hay 

I tk hsidcnt ate dinner at 9:30 p,m. Why would that t 

2listcdtwia? 

3 THE WITNESS: Just an oversight. 

4 A JUROR Oh, okay. Just chxking. I thought 

5 fmybc it was something special. 

6 ~~Ewn?a?ss: No. 

? MS. WIRTH: Okay. JFK-14 is I one-page documcn 

B (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFIC-I4 

9 was marked for identification.) 

1 BY Ms. wllrm 

I Q It’s dated, is it not, Saturday, May 24, 19977 

2 A Yes. 

I Q All right. And this is your record that you 

I generated? 

5 A YCS. 

Page 74 

I Q And it contains a list of three phone calls, 

I correct? 

I A Yes. 

I Q With the names taken out? 

i A Yes. 

i Q Now, in the first entry under “Day Notes,” it says 

f The Resident qxmt most of his ‘day 0fP at the Oval Offux 

I workiqa#ptfatwohnunkspcntwi~~RoBcrtkWhk 

1 Houscpuain8gramfrom2:30to5:oopm.” DoyouImowwk 

t Roger is? 

A His brother. 

I Q Okay. So that’s Roger Clinton? 

I A Yes. 

M!LwlRm okay. ThankyolL 

JFK-IS, which is a ompage document. 

(&and Jury Exhibit No. JFK-I5 

was marked for identification.) 

BY Ms. WIIUX 

8. 6 document 

7 (Grand Jury Exhiiit No. ~a-16 

8 was marked for idcntication.) 

9 BY Ms. WlRTHz 

vel 0 Q The date on that is Wcdncsday, June 11, 19971 

%I I A Yes. 

I 2 Q And each page 6 marked rcdactcd? 

I 3 A Yes. 

1 4 Q And this is your record? 

I 5 A Yes. 

11 6Q And,again,thclastcntryisalistofphOTIt 

t. I’ 7 calls including - it looks like two cqnfercne calls, 

II B right? 

I! 9 A YCS. 

z1 D Q With the names redacted of the pc0p.k h&cd? 

2 I A YcS. 

2: 2 Q And it says on the bottom “Confcrcnae call,” 

2: 3 tbcre’sablankandthcna amlmcntlmdthcnwsLwbatdocs 

24 I that stand for? 

2: 5 A It looks to be Wall Street Journal. so I’m mrssinm 

4 Page 7t 

I I that’s a mcdir txmfcrcncc cdl. 

l 

1 2 Q Okay. Andontheprcviouspagc,isitcommoafor 

I the hident to participate in media confaence calls? 

4 I A He daxn’t do it on a regular basis, but hc does it 

! i fromtimetotimc,yes. 

t i Q Okay. On the previous page, at the top, the swnc 

7 1 bullct,whatitsaysfrom4:08to4:13p.m.kvisitaiwitb 

8 I blank, long time friends in the Oval, that’s w instana 

9 1 WIXXC you rcwrdcd a visit by - 

I(1 t A Yc?L 

11 Q - fi-icnds, it appears. 

I2 A Yes. 

13 MS. WIR’TR Okay. Okay. Next is JFK-17. which is 

14 a five-page document. 

IS (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFK-17 

I6 was marked for identification.) 

I7 BY MS. WIRTH: 

18 Q The date on it is Monday, June 16,1997, ancct? 

. 19 A Yes. 

20 Q And this is your document? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q And each page is marked Edacted? 

23 A Yes. 

24 Q Andthcbottomcntryonthencxtto~hstpagc, 

25 

Q Friday May 30,1997 is the datt on this document 

Is that light? 

A Yts. 

Q And this is your record? 

A Yes. 

Q It’s marked redacted? 

A Yes. 

~ivcrsifkd Rcaortine Scrviccs. Tnc (202) 296-2929 

Page 73 - Page 76 
9 Q Itb throc pages long, WrrtCt? 9 MS. WIRlHz A.ll ri&L JFlC-20 is thre pages. 

IO A Yes. IO (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFK-20 

II Q And this is dated Just 24,1997? II was marked for identification.) 

I2 A YCS. I2 BY MS. WIRlH: 

I3 Q Andthisisyourdocumwtthatyoucrcated? 13 Q It is dated Monday, July 14,1997. Is tlut 

14 A Yes. I4 correct? 

I5 Q Eachpagtismarkcdruhtcd? 15 A Yes. 

I6 A Ye& I6 Q Andthisisyourrwordthatyougwcmef? 

I7 Q Andthelastcatqoryontk~pagegoingovcr I7 A Yes. 

I8 tOthdstpa@SahtOfthCphOrbCds? 18 Q Andcachpagcismarkedr$act& 

I9 A ‘ YCS. I9 A Yes. 

20 Q Withthcnamcsxhctcd? 20 Q hdthclastpagecontainsyourlistingofphonc 

21 A Yes. 21 cab, wmct? 

22 Q AndinthebullctcntzyabovcthephmccaUs 22 A Yes. 

23 on tk second page, it says, “The President, Mrs. Clinton 23 Q hchdiqaamfuena~? 

24 and a guest ate dixmcr at the pool at 8:12 pn” In 24 A Yes. 

2s this cast, thm is no name. 25 Q Andthenamcsareruhcted? 

Page 78 Pageb. ’ 

1 Canyoutclluswhythatis? Isitbccauscthe I A Yes. 

2 record you received didn’t contain a name or there was a 2 MS. WIRTHz m right JFK-21 is thra psges. 

3 decision not to put it in? 3 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFKII 

4 A I don’t recall at all. I don’t. 4 was marked for idwtifhtion.) 

5 Q Okay. Istkrccvcraninstana WhUCpUiUWCthC 5 BY Ms. WlRTH: 

6 name -but you don’t mrd it in your rword? 6 Q It’s dated Wednesday, July 16,1997. Is that 

I A NonethatIcanrccall. 7 wmct? 

8 MS. WIRTIl: Okay. All right. ‘he next is JFK-19. 8 A Yes. 

9 which is one page. 9 Q Andeachpageismarkedredaed? . 

10 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFK-I9 10 A Yes. 

II was marked for idwtification.) II Q And tk last psgt contains t&phone cnti? 

12 BY MS. WIRlHz 12 Isthat-? 

I3 Q It’s dated Friday, July 4, 1997. Is that wmct? I3 A Yes. 

14 A Yes. -a I4 MS. WIRl’R Okay. JFK-22. 

I5 Q And it’s marked r&&d? 15 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFKZ2 -- 

I6 A Yes. I6 was marked for identification.) 

17 Q And it also contains at the bottom under I7 BY Ms. WYRlH: 

18 “Day Notes” a list of phone calls, wrmct? I8 Q It’s one pagt, wmct? 

19 A Yes. I9 Ayes. . 

20 Q With tht names redacted, wrrcct? 20 Q lhc date is Thursday, July 24,1997? 

21 A Yes. 21 A Yes. 

22 Q And it notes at tht top, “‘Ih President procccdcd ~2 Q This is tk rcwrd you generated? 

23 to tk Oval at 8:40 Ada,” correct? 23 A Yes. 

24 A Yes. 24 Q Andonthtbottom,itwntainsarecordoftfna 

25 Q “He ma& a wnferena call and then thzrc’s a 2s phone calls - 

n--. -- n-_. nh 
1 A Yes. 1 A Yes. 

2 Q - with the President? 2 Q Okay. And do you have any i&a whether those ~vt 

3 A Yes. 3 personal meetings or official meetings7 

4 Q With tk names x&acted? 4 A Idonot. 

5 A Yes. 5 MS. WIRIH: Okay. All right. JR<-3 is three 

6 MS. wmm Okay. ~~-23 is ox page. 6 Pag7 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFKZ~ 7 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JR<-25 

8 was marked for identification.) 8 was ma&cd for identification.) 

9 BY MS. WIRTR 9 BY us. WIRTH: 

0 QSelt’s dakd Saturday, August 16, 1997. Is that 10 Q It’s dated Friday, Scptcmbcr 12, 1997. 

1 amed? 11 A Yes. 

2 A Yes. 12 Q And each page is marked rc&cted. 

3 Q And this is tk record you gcncratcd’l 13 A Yes. 

4 A YCS. 14 Q That is a record you generated? 

4 Q AndthcmiddlebuUctpointisrlistofphonc 15 A Yes. 

6cah,c0nCct? 16 Q And,gain,ontklastpagc,ncarthcbottom, 

7 A YCS. 17 thrrtcntriffup,is8listofttlephontcalls..Isthat 

8 Q With the names redacted? 18co&? 

9 A Yts. 19 A Yes. 

0 Ms. WIRTR Okay. JFIC-24 is three pages. 20 Q With the names redacted. 

I (Grand Jury Exhibit No. ~~14 21 A Yes. 

2 was marked for identification.) 22 Q Okay. And whcrc it says un&neath that 7hc 

3 BY Ms. WLRTH: 23 Resident ate dinner at 8:00 a.m.,” that’s a mistake, 

4 Q It’s dated Thursday, Scptcmbcr 11, 1997. Is that 24 correct? 

5 right? 25 A Yes. 

Page 82 Page 8r 

1 A Yes. 1 MS.WlRTH:~right JFIC-26issix pages. 

2 Q And cacb page is also marked rcdactcd? 2 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. IFIC-26 

3 A Yes. 3 was markd for identification.) 

4 Q Andthclastcnbyisalistofphonccalls? Is 4 BY MS. WIRTHE 

5 that ccmect? 5 Q Thisisad ocumcnt dated Monday, September 22, 

6 A YCS. 6 1997. 

7 Q And at Icast one of thxn is a confcrcnce call? 7 A Yes. 

B A YCS. 8 Q And it is a d ocunmlt you generated? 

9 Q And they appear to bc at Icast partially out of 9 A YCS. 

3 order as to time, tlz phone calls? Out of chronological 10 Q And each page is marked redacted? 

I order. There’s a lo:34 noted at tk bottom, am? 11 A Yes. 

z A YCS,, YCS. 12 Q Andthclastpagccontainsaxcfcrenatoatkast 

1 Q Okay. Atthctopofthatlastpagqinthcsccond 13 thrutclcphonccallswiththcnamcs&ac+d,isthat 

I paragraph, it says, “The Prcsidcnt had two unschcdulcd 14 concct? 

I meetings.” Do yav saz th3t7 15 A Yes. 

i A Yes. 16 Q And on this day, it looks Ilk - at the beginning 

1 Q “This cvcning bcforc hc w&cd over to the 17 itsaysThcPIIsidcntwasinNcwYaLtodaytomdrerU.N. 

I rcsidcnce for the x&cd&d amgrrssional 18 address,” et cetera, correct? 

) picnichception.” And then there’s a paxnthcticaL 19 A Yes. 

1 And then it says He ‘ met’ below that and somethings ’ been 20 Q And so it appears that thcsc t&phone calls wcrc 

I takcu out, from 6:21 to 658 p.m. and a meeting, again, 21 made or received out of town, correct? 

I another blank, from 659 to 7:13 p.m. 22 A Yes. Iwouldgucss. ImcanI A Yts. 23 Q Okay. . 

I Q And it appears that the participants have been - 24 A If he’s not in tow. 

i lhcirnarncshwcban nrimovcd. Is that right? 25 MS.WImI: JFK-27 isoncpagc. 

Page 81 - Page 84 
1 Q Anditwntainsalistofphonecallsattwd, 

2 co-? 

3 A YCS. 

4 Q Again,withtknamcsrcdacted. 

5 A YeS. 

6 MS. WJRTH: u right. JFK-28 is a two-pagt 

7 d-t. 

8 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFKZ~ 

9 was markd for idcntif~tion.) 

0 BY Ms. WIRTH: 

1 Q ‘Ihe date is Thursday, Novtmber 13.1997. Is that 

2 right? 

3 A Yts. 

4 Q And it is markd redacted on both pages? 

5 A Yes. 

Page 86 

1 Q And it’s a documw t you gcncratui? 

2 A YeS. 

3 Q And at the bottom of page 1, it states 

4 “He proceeded to the Oval at 6:34 p.m. He was briefed 

s and th materials taken out. He took a foreign call 

6 on material taken out at 6:47 pm.” So that’s one call 

7 that’s noted, correct? 

8 A YCS. 

9 Q And then at the bottom of the scwnd page, there’s 

o a whole list of times associated with 0th phone calls, 

IWxTcct? . 

2 A YCS. 

3 Q Inchiing one wnfcrenw call? 

4 A YeS. 5 

5 Q Andrbcnamsbaveb&nnznovcdoftbcpahipants 

6 0th than the FVesidcnt, conect? 

7 A Yes. 

B MS. WIRTH: Okay. All right. And JFIC-29 is a 

9 three-page document. 

D (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFK-29 

1 was marked for identification.) 

2 BY Ms. WlRl-Hz 

3 Q It is marked Saturday, December 6.1997, coTztc1? 

4 A YCS. 

5 o And this is a document you acnerated? 

y 

II was marked for identification.) 

:2 BY MS. WJRTH: 

.3 Q TIE date on that is Monday, Dccembcr l&1997, 

4 wrrwt? 

s A Yes. 

6 Q Andthisisad ocunmlt you gwuatcdl 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q hchpagcismar~rtdactcd3 

9 A Yes. 

!o Q Audthzfmalcntryisalistoftelcphonccalls 

!I with the Prcsidw< co&? 

!2 A Yes. 

!3 Q And tht participants except for him taken out, 

!4 wrrcct? 

5 A Yes. 

Page L 

I MS. WIRTH: Okay. And, fmaIly, JFK-31 is one 

2 PaGt* 

3 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JFlC-31 

4 was marked for identificatia) 

5 BY Ms. WIR-IH: 

6 Q It’s dated Sunday, December 28,1997. Is that 

7 wmct? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Andthisisad ocumcnt you generated? 

0 A Yes. 

1 Q AndthefmaIw~isalistofphonccaIlswith 

2 thnamcsrcdactcd? 

3 A Yts. 

4 Q And that’s it At any time, did you ever have any 

5 converwlionwilhenyoncaboluwbdbaMmiu~sMmc 

6 should appear on any of the records that you generate? 

7 A No. 

8 Q Did anybody ever speak to you about categories oi 

9 pcrsonsortypcsofinformationthatshouldnotappcarintk 

0 records that you keep? 

1 A No. 

2 Q IfthcPrcsidwthaslikcarcstpuiodduring 

3 thtdayorelunchpaiod~be’sjusteatingby~, 

4 not with anyone else, would that be noted in any of ti 

s s&d&s that you receive? 

. 
1 A It would probably note office or phone time. 1 Q 0th than T.V. and the news. 

2 Q Is that something that you put into your record 2 A Okay. 

3 thatyougcncratc? 3 Q hat ‘ scorrect ’ Yes. Andothcrthanthcwtimc 

4 A I’m not sure whether I do or not It’s nothing 4whaIyQusawk8ttbcradiodbss,youwncw~ha ’

5 that I would think would be significant or impatant, but I 5 anywhzinthcWhitcHousc? 

6 might just because its ’ on the schedule input it. 6 A No. 

7 Q IfyouwantaitoknowwhetthePrtsidmt-doing 7 Q Doyouknowanythingeboutemht.icmsbip~ 

8 rteparticulartimeof~ygiveDday,whatwarldbethekst 8 MonicaLcwins~andthePrcsiht? 

9 place to look to obtain that information? 9 A No. . 

0 A That’shard-1mcan,I’mnotaurcIamanswu JO Q 

J that ~&stion. I don’t know. 

Did you ever hear anything about a relationship 

11 buwemMmicr~uxlthePmidmtfromuljw*7 

2 Q OfalIthcschedulcsthat~yousee,whichdoyou 12 A No. 

3 thinkiathcmostdetaiM? 13 Q Ha= you ever sum Monica I+winsky outsidc the 

4- A Iwouldthinktkannoh&d =kduie, P*lY* has 14 WhitcHoust? 

5 the most specific information. 15 A No. 

6 Q Okay. Andthatsthethingtbat ’ Mr. Eqskovdocs? 16 MS. WRIX: Okay. I’m going to ask you to step 

7 A YcS. 17 outsidtatthispointmdwtwillcaflyqubrckinafcw 

B Q This last document that you looked at, JFK-317 18 minutes. -fhankyou 

9 A Yes. 19 

Q hlxds an entry that saya The President and 

(Witness excused. Witness recalled) 

3 20 THB KMBPERSON: hh. Kearncy, you’re stiIl un& 

I Mrs. Clinton attended Fourhy United Methodist Church in 21 oath. 

2 Washingto+” 22 niEm: lltdy0~ 

3 A Yes. 23 MS. WJR?H: Okay. And, for the nxxxd, we have a 

4 Q Doyou~owwhattimetht~idcntandthtFirst24 quorummdrbtFcercwuneu&&&pa#nuiatkgrnd 

I Lady usually attend church on Sunday? 25 jury? 

Page 90 Page 97 

1 A I don’t. I mean, I know about what time, but I 1 THE FORBPERSON: ‘Ihat is wzrcct. 

2 don’t know exactly what time. 2 

: 

BY Ms. WlRTl-k 

3 Q About what time? 3 Q Okay. Ms. ICcamcy, the grand jurors hevc gim me 

4 A I would say 10:00 or 1 l:OO, between IO:30 and 4 alistofquestionstoaskyou. l’hf~qucstioaisyou 

5 1l:OO. S tcstifiaithatyousewMonicaL&*atamdioad&css. 

6 Q Okay. Do you pcmmelly know Monica lzwinskyl 6 Atthattime,hadyouevcrmcther? 

1 A No. 7 A No. 

B Q Have you ever seen her around the White House? 8 Q AtthattimeJidyouknowwhoshcwas? 

9 A No. Exapt forthc onctimc. 9 A No. 

D Q Had you cvcr sawn her in the West Wing? 10 Q How is it that you now know that it was Monica 

1 A No. J I Lcwins~ that was at the radio ad&? 

2 Q Wcrcyouawartatthttimethatshcwasworkingin 12 A BecaustofthcnewsstoricsandarticksthatI’vc 

3 theWhiteHouscthat&cwasanintcmthcrc? 13 samsinottkn. 

4 A Idon’tthinkshcworhdinthtWhitcHouscsincc 14 Q Is ttxc anything about her c&r apparance or 

5 I’vcbcnthc. 15 bchaviaoranythingeboutllcrwhatsocWthatagdc&r~ 

5 Q Wacyoue&etenytimcthatthaeweseMonica 16 outsothatyou mnembcr her now? 

I IJ3hsky working in tk Offltce of IXgisletive Arfeirs wbm 17 A No. 

1 she was working there? 18 Q hyouknow&ttyctic? 

t A No. 19 A Yes. 

1 Q Did you ever hear any scuttlebutt about a Monica 20 Q Thtgrandjurywouldliketo~whcthuyourrt 

I &fin&y being either fucd or rcassigncd from the Whik 21 good friends with Betty Cur&? 

1 Houseatthetimethatoccurrcd? 22 A we are friends. 

I A I didn’t No. 23 Q Okay. Do you socialize with her at all? 

I Q Since then? 24 A I wouldn’t say we socieliz We work tagcth end 

r A No. You mean other than T.V. and news. 2s we’n of!-icc friends. 

n,-. v. Al 

l3;vrrrsificcl Rmcrrtino Scwiccs. Tnc. (2(12) 29C;-2929 

Page uy - rage YL 
I1 A No. 11 yoursclfmcstfrisndlywithintermsof~pusonal 

12 Q Have you ever heard that Mchica Lcwhsky called 12 relationship? 

13 BcttyCurriconthephoot3 I3 A Iwouldsayso. Yes. 

14 A I’ve read that and I’ve hard it on the news. 14 Q AndwhouetlqcojhyoutaIktoatwork? Just 

15 Q Otherthanncwsxcportsorwhatyou’vcLard- 15 socialchitchat,thingslikethat. 

16 A No. 16 A Idon’tdorlotofsocialchitchatrtwork. 

17 Q -rcadandhcardhmncwspapcrsorradio,any 17 Probably 00 one. 

18 knowledge of any t&phone calls bctwccn those two? 18 Q Okay. Doyouta&soci~ytoHctty7 

19 A No. 19 A Very seldom. 

20 Q Do you know any of the people who work in tht to Q Havcyoucvcrcallcdhtrathomcorhasshtcvcr 

21 Prcsidcnt’s pirntry? 21 callcdyouathumC? 

22 A Iknowthtre’smil.aidcsthatworkiathtWtst 22 A Afewtimcs. Very, vuy seldom, 

23 Wing. Yes. 23 Q Was it personal or business-related, those calls? 

24 Q Okay. Stewards, thcy’n called? 24 A Usuallybusiness. 

2s A YCS. 25 Q Okay. l’hcgrandjurywouldalsolikctoknowwhrt , 

Page 94 P4$CS. 

1 Q Okay. Do you know their names? 1 yuurworkboursare. Yousaidyoustartat7:30. Howlate 

2 A I know a couple of their names. Yes. 2 do you work? 

3 Q Who do you know? 3 A It dcpcnds. It depends on the Presideat’s 

4 A IknowoncbytbenamtofNclvisandIhowcmcby 4 schdulc. ItdqaldsalwktbuI’mwohingonsom&iDgI 

5 tk name of Glen. 5 want to finish I can be Lhac as late as 8z30.9:00, 10:OO. 

6 Q Okay. Do you know anything about any friaxiship or 6 I don’t have any set work hours. 

7 relationship bctwccn Monica Lxwinsky and N&is? 7 Q Okay. Anddoyouwork wxkcods? Tbcywouldatso 

8 A No. 8 ~ikctoknowtha~ 

9 Q Did you ever sa them talking together, Monica and 9 A Yes, I do. 

10 Mr. Nclvis? 10 Q How often? 

11 A No. 11 A Prcttyoften. 

12 Q Do you know of any fiicndship or relationship 12 Q Ibcgmdjutyalsowouldiiktohmwwithscspcct ‘

13 bctwccn Monica and Glen Mays? 13 toyourtc5honyaboutvisitsaphonccnllsfrummili~ 

14 A No. 14 aides&wards,thatsortofthingthatyougcncrallyaa4it _ 

1S Q Didyouevcr~thcmtalkingtogcthz? 15 thoseframtkrcc&thatyoukccp.bothintbeca!cgayd 

16 A No. 16 visits and in tht category of telephone calls. Is that 

17 Q Thcgrandjurywouldalsolikr.tolrnowbowyou~ 17 right? 

18 about your job at the White House. How did it happa~ that 18 A I usually don’t put them into the computer. 

19 you got this job? 19 Q AadtkCgandjtuywouldliketoknowwhctbcrthat 

20 A I applied for it. 20 wasajlIdgnmtrhstyourMdconywrownorwbdbaanyonc 

21 Q I‘kgandjurywouldalsolikctoknowwktheryou ’ 21 badcvcr&isedyouthattbatcakgotyshouldbcomittal 

22 worked with Erskinc Bowlcs at the SBA. 22 from your record. . i 

23 A Idid. 23 A O~J no. That’s completely on my own because 

24 Q Is that how you found out about the job? 24 I don’t find any historical r&vane to putting that 

25 A No. , 2s in. 

, 
3 names you note in your record that you krxp whcthcr in 3 memess: lhmk LOU. 

I relation to - well, in relation to a visit, for cxampk, 4 (lk witness was excllscd.) 

5 howdoyoumakc-doyoumakcmyjudgmntcallsasto 5 (whmupon, at I 150 a-m, the taking of tcstimon: 

6 which friends shouid bc inch&d in the record you make 6 in the prrscaac of a full quontm of the Grand Jury was 

I and which should not? 7 wncludcd.) 

3 A Usually not. No. I mean, if it’s a friend of 8 _ l **** 

? his, usually I put it in. 

1 Q ~thCKs~yinStancC~tyOUCan~~WhtnyOU 

I havc&ittcdapasm’snamcfromtherczo~(hatyoukap 

1 whu you would catcgoriaz as tithx a friend or social 

I acquaintance of tht President? 

I A No. 

I Q The grand jury would also like to know what your 

i’comnaiainatatingthedocummtthatyou~. They 

~8slcaIwktbcfaccwacyisyuurprinWycanmn awktk 

B y o uíc o r e ma sd a b o uwlt mt info nna tiwll o a l ppcu favorable 

9 historically. What is your wnam in creating this 

D document? 

1 A Having an accurate history of what happcncd during 

2 this pxaidaxy. And I would also add anecdotal inConnation 

3 as well. - 

6 MS. wmnI: Okay. Can anybody think of anything 

5 else? 

1 4 

, 4 

5 

A 

! 

t 

i 

t 

I 

1c 

11 

11 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

IF 

1; 

2( 

21 

2; 

2: 

24 

2! 

Page 98 

I A JUROR: Yes. 

t MS. wmni: YCS? 

I A JUROR: In your previous job, what was your title 

I bcforc you canx to the White House? 

i THE WITNESS: I was Dinxtor of Public Affairs at 

i SBA. 

1 A JUROR: And do you have anything like a dcgru in 

L history? 

F THE W~INE!S: My dcgnx is in journalism. 

1 A JUROR: Ms. &mey, previously 1 thought you 

I testified that thr= job was created for you at the White 

! House? 

I THE WITNESS: I don‘t think I said that. 

I A JUROR: You didnt ’ say that? 

i THE -Ess: No. I said no one held the position 

i bcfon. It wasn’t-&cated for me. 

1 A JUROR: Oh, okay. I’m sorry. 

Y MS. wmnk Okay. Anyone else? 

3 (No rcsponsc.) 

1 MS. WLRTH: Okay. Thank you very much. 

I If anything occurs to you outside the grand jury 

I that in the line of things that you now mncmbcf that you 

1 didnt ’ ranember what you wcrc testifying, as smctimcs 

I bappau, if you would contact dtlx me or Mr. Binhak lJwou@ 

j your lawyer, WC would apprcciatc that. 

Divcrsificd Rc~orting Scrviccs. inc. (2021296-‘2929 

rage YI - rage YY 
0 National Security Council... 

96thDC-O0000203 

0 Legal... 

REDACTED 
0 Political... 

2113 

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0 Cabinet Affairs... 
REDACTED 

%8-DC-00000205 
Today... 

from 9 p.m. - 12 a.m. 

96thDC-OOOOO206 

REDACTED 

visited the President 
%8-DC-O0000207 
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968~DC-OOOOo208 
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lllllllllillilllrmlano~ 

0 003571 
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Daynotes... 

%8-DC-00000212 

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0 The President was "down" today, 

golfing alone, 

and took the opportunity to 

Course. 

playing with the pro at the Army/Navy Golf 

He left at 1:04 p.m., and returned around 4 p.m. 

He and Mrs. Clinton departed 25 minutes enroute the AIDS 

quilt exhibition on the capitol mall 

They departed the mall 15 minutes later, enroute the M 
2122 

Street Cl1 .nton/Gore campaign headquarters to greet, and say 

Thank-you to the camPaim c+aff and voluntee- +hc=re. 

there almost a* hour 

He was 

l The president called "all the President's men - and women" 

together this evening at 8 p.m. 

before he left on hi.s 

for a strategy meeting 

Sk day trio to the West - and his 

final debateThe president 

Ebeling eat dinner in the Solarium at 6:30 p.m. 

The president, 

Wives Club" in LAX 

watched "First 

to third floor. 

Lduuly illrdLLr dC Y : 33 p.m. , then proceed 

the presiden retire at 12 midnight 

0 The president talked, via telephone, with: 

11:06 a.m. 

I 11:20 a.m. 

11:40 a.m. 

2:;7 p.m. 

7 a.m.," 1:30 a.m. 

7 a.m. 

7:36 a.m. 

REDACTED 

%8-DC-00000213 
2123 

Thursday, October 24, 1996 

0 Leon...PL-esrdenc will be icaving shor-r:fy :\. il: ;.; d.:.' !<.I! 

Birmihgham, AL. He goes to Lake Charles, 2.; f:<>: a K~l!.a!'? :I) 

Work message, then on to New Orleans where he does a DNC 

reception, a community policing event and meet.:: wit;? New 

Orlean's African American leadership. 

He spends the night in New Orlsans, and gaps 01: to .;=.tlanra 

and Macon, GA tomrorrow. 

l Political 

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0 Rahm.. 

l Gene. . 

0 Intergovernmental.. 

%8-DC-00000215 

0 OVP. 

Today's News... REDACTED 
2125 

lXsynotes... 

0 me president talked, via Dhone. with: 

0 - , 8:15 a.m. 

a ::*>,, r . . 1. ’ .:I(.-? ‘ -:I ‘ 1 ! 

%8-DC-00216 

.REDACTED 

l~llllll~ll~lllll~ll~ul~ll~ull 0 003576 
2126 

Tuesday, December 17, 1996 

Senior Staff Meeting 

l Leo n. . .The President's schedule today changed from "down" 

all‘day, to meetings all morning - including a follow-up 

with Prime Minister John Bruton, a photo-op with the AIDS 

Task Force as they deliver the AIDS Strategy report to him 

in the Oval office; his regular meetings with Tony, Leon, 

and now Erskine. 

0 NSC.. 

* Legislative. 

%8-DC40000217 

REDACTED 
2127 

l Economy.. 

0 Poljtical. 

0 Legal... 

0 Intergovernmental.. 

Today's News... 

REDACTED 

l 

%8-DC40000218 
2128 

Today... 

0 The President met with Leon this morning breifly before TT.S 

meeting with Carol Rasco and Patsy Flemming about the 

National AIDS Strategy Presentation and Photo 

REDACTED 

0 The Pres.ir-lent held a Foreisn Policy Team meetina in the Oval 

@ 10:30. 

0 The President met with Prime Minister John Bruton of 

Ireland, at @ 10 a.m. 

%8-DC-tlOOOO219 
2129 

e The President spent @ an hour taking WH office photos with 

staff. 

Daynotes... 

l 

0 ,!I? j'reslclent caiked, via phone, with. 

%8-DC-OOOOO220 
2130 

.;T ‘ . . ..- 

. . 

1:46 p fn. 

1 : 4 9 i:, in 

2:02 ".rn. 

2:23 2-m. 

2128 P.“. 

1, 2:35 p-m 

2:39 p.m. 

2:S3 t2.m. 

?:53 p.m. 

1O:li D.m. 

REDACTED 

%8-DC-00000221 
2131 

Monriay, December 33, 1996 

a The President and Mrs. Clinton departed the WH at 11:29 for 

Hilton Head, SC and the annual Rennaissance Weekend, 

sponsored by friends Phil and Linda LaSourd Lader. 

a The President went to Fazio Golf Course directly from the 

airport, where he remained for four hours (from 2 p.m. to 6 

p.m.1 

0 The President talked, via phone, with: 

, lo:37 a.m. 

lo:49 a.m. 

12:19 a.m. 

9~27 a.m. 

, 9:25 a.m. 

lo:02 a.m. 

%8-DC40000222 
2132 

Monday, February 24, 1997 

Today’s new.s summary... 

0 

l 

l 

l 

Oval Office Morning meeting... 

NON-RESPONSIVE 

PAGES REMOVED 

968~DC-00000223 REDACTED 
2133 

Sylvia's weakly short-term meeting 

968-X-00000224 

REDACTED 
2134 

Today... 

l The President did an event this morning with the 

Historically Black College Presidents in the State Dining 

Room 

[Before he participated in a photo-op/reception with the 

group, the President was briefed for the event by 

%8-DC-OOOOO225 
2135 

0 The President's next public eveqt of the day was his speech 

to the America3 Council of Educators, at the Grand Hyatt 

Hotel. 

[The President sat in the Oval for 30 minutes worki'ng on his 

speech 

REDACTED 

%&DC-00000226 
2136 

l At @ 7 p.m., the President departed the WH for the 

Democratic Business Council Dinner, located at the Sheratlon 

Carlton Hotel at 16th and K streets. 

%8-DC-00000227 

REDACTED 

Daynotes... 

l The President talked, via phone, with: 
2137 

-1.33 ‘ - 7. 

9:43 a.m. 

, 12:59 p.m. 

5:53 p.m. 

5:25 p.m. 

5:32 p.m. 

6:lO p-m. 

12:07 p.m. 

9:40 p.m. 

lo:20 p.m. 

11:42 p.m. 

8:47 p.m 

REDACTED 

%8-X-00000228 
213’8 

Friday, February 28, 1997 

Oval Office morning meeting.. 

REDACTED 

Today... 

0 The President's first meeting this morning was with Erskina 

%8-DC-OOOOo229 

l His second meeting was the conqresslonal meetins 
2139 

0 The next meeting of the day was actually briefing for his 

one public event - the anti-teen smoking event held in the 

Roosevelt room. 

%8-DC-O0000230 
2140 

0 The President was joined in the Roosevelt room by 

Daynotes... 

0 The President talked, via phone, with: 

2:12 p-m. 

, 2~23 p.m. 

2:34 p.m. 

5:48 p.m. 

, 4:08 p-m. 

%8-DC40000231 

REDACTED 
2141 

Ambassador Molly Raiser's T&S,, ;dence from 8:03 p.m to 11~30 

p-El. 
2142 

Thursday, March 13, 1997 

[The President came into the Oval quite early - 8 a.m. - this 

morning. We was feaving at 8:30 a.m. for North Carolina.] 

Oval Office meeting.. 

l Na nc y. . .The President's schedule today includes an address 

to the NC legislature; three fundraisers in Miami; a 

school construction event and a golf tournament. 

REDACTED 

Today. _. 

* Before departing on his North Carolina-Miami trap tn1.s 

morning, the President made a brief, quite solemn press 

statement about the killing, last night, of seven Israeli 

children by a soldier. I__. - 

%8-DC-233 
2143 

l Upon arrival in North Carolina, the President was greeted by 

soldiers and their families from Cwp LeJeune and members of 

the 82nd Airborne from Fr+ Bragg. He also greeted a number 

of school children. 

The President's schedule today included a speech to the 

North Carolina leqislature in Raleiah-Durham, at II a.m, 

* The President departed North Carolina for Niaml at 1:30 p.m. 

REDACTED 

l At $3 6:30 p.m., the President proceeded to a WCC receptiqn 

and was greeted by Senator and‘Mrs. Sob Grahm and greeted 50 

people. 

a The Prestdent then proceeded to the Sheraton Ua! Harbor 

Hotel where he attended a Saxophone Cl11b event:. 
2144 

Saturdav, March 29. 1397 

Daynotes... 

0 The President talkkd, today, wlch: 

5:38 p.m. 

I 9:17 p.m. 

I 9:Ol p.m. 

, 8:32 p.m., f-3:5!? p.m., ‘):I'> /,."I 

, lo:44 p.m. 

11:12 a.m. 

11:23 a.m. 

11:51 a.m. 

4:14 p.m. 

%84X-00000236 

2146 

Today... 

0 The President did his physical therapy this morning before 

coming to the Oval 0 10 a,m. 

His first event this morning was a drop-by of the Summit of 

the America's meeting Erskine was holding, with Gen. Powell. 

-. - 

0 . The President was briefed in the Oval office by his 

foreign Affairs staff before his working visit this morning 

with PM Netanyahu. 

REDACTED 
2147 

l The President greeted the Prime Minister at the doorway, via 

the hallway at 12 noon, and momentarily the first press pool 

was brought in to do photo op and press statement. 

REDATED 
2148 

, 11:39 a.m. 

3:04 p-m* 

I iI55 p.mll:OS p-m. 

IL:37 p.m, 

REDACTED 
2149 

Wsk~c?odsy, April 15, 133: ’

Oval Office Meeting. _ 

0 . Nancy....The President's schedule today includes a Policy 

Retreht tonight in the Blair House. 

%8-DC-OOO00241 

NON-RESPONSIVE 

PAGES REMOVED 
2150 

Today... 

0 The President had a meeting in the residence from 

10 a.m. to X1:30 a.m. 

l He met with Erskine at 12 noon 

I, He was briefed by Sandy Serger at X2:30 p.m. 

for about 15 minutes, 

l He met with Dan Tarullo in the oval Office from 

12:45 p*m. to 12:SO p-m. 

* At 1:37 p+m., rhe President met with Stephanie and 

Nancy H. 

l At 2:30 p.m., the President greeted Transporratlon 

Secretary Rodney Slater and five former Transporrarion 

secreraries in the Oval office, including: Alan Boyd, the 

first Transportation Secretary appointed by President Lyndo, 

Johnson. 
2151 

* ALI 2:20 p.m., t3eccv C. called Caprl(:r~ LO lIlf(~l.lll tICI I.Il~ll 

the President was rc.3dy fo!- the phof o op wit t1 III<> 

Prescriptive Reading group, 

The 21 members 0: the Prescriptive Partnership c'aw? into the 

Oval of:i.ce at 2:35 p.m. ' 

dC 2:4'7 p.m. to brief the President 

%8-DC-00000243 

REDACTED 

ThesPresident began making his phone calls af 3:03 p.m. 
2152 

REDACTED 
2153 

Caucus meeting being held in the Cabinet Meeting. 

1 The President walked into the Cabinet room at @ 4:36 p.m., 

and made his way around the room, greeting the 30 or so 

Hispanic representatives and Congressional leaders, 9 

The President sat down at 4:46 p-m. and opened the 

discussion 

%8-DC-Q00245 

REDACTED 

llmmlluallulnrul~llur

0 003605 
2154 

* The President was briefed by his foreign poilcy alaes ~erure 

wrocwdino on to Blair House for the Foreign Policy Retreat. . . 

l The President departed the Qval office at 6:17 in the 

Motorcade, and arrived there - across the street - at, 6:20 

p.m. He spent @ 10 minutes greeting the participants. 

The Meeting began, in the Garden Room, at 6:X0 

REDACTED 

%&-DC-m246 
2155 

The reclcac came co an ena o Y:JO 

%8-DC-00000247 

REDACTED 
2156 

The meeting ended @ 9:30 p.m. as :he President walked out 

a reporter asked him whether the meeting WA.C r+'orthwhile, he 

responded: "Very good." 

Daynotes... 

. 

0 The President talked, via phone, with: 

-, 12:23 a.m. 

lo:19 a.m. 

, 3:06 p.m. 

4:13 p.m. 

3:;s p-m. 

, 3355 p.m. 

- 3:40 p.m. 

i:49 p.m. 

4:06 p.m. 

3:44 p.m. 

'11:ll p.m 

REDACTED 
Thursday, May 1, 1997 

2157 : 

Oval OfFice Meeting... 

%8-DC-00000249 

REDACTED 

NON-RESPONSIVE 

PAGES REMOVED 
2158 

0 The President had physical therapy this mornillci Er-on1 8 to q 

a.m. 

0 He came to thFt Oval at 9:25 a.m., and met with 

until lo:32 a-m 

His communicators and speechwriters Drepped him for- l-he 

evening"s speech: 

At 10:35, the President met with Stephanie, his scheduler 

for 10 minutes. 

At lo:54 a-m, the President was briefed by his press folk: 

%8-DC-O0000250 

REDACTED 
2159 

%8-DC40000251 

REDACTED 

l The Conference Call interviews cook placze in the Oval 

office. and lasted 14 minutes. 

0 T"t:c ?resldenL met wrth Ersklne for- I've minutes 

I~llllll~ll~llnlBBIulllm

0 003611 
2160 

0 From 11:44 to 12 noon, the PrpcidPrlr niri ’ ,311 in1 cnfiew wiLtI 

CNN Spanish Radio. 

0 At 12:08 p.m., the President greeted Boys and Girls Club 

National Youth of the Year. 

%8-DC40000252 
2161 

0 The President and the Veep shared lunch from 12:25 to 1:18 

p-m- in the Oval office Dining Room. 

met with the President and Veep bL-iefly ac c:le 

end ot their lunch. 

0 At 1:48 p.m., the President and Veep greeted family members 

and a few staff who gathered in the Oval for the swearing-in 

of Alexis Herman as Secretary of Labor. 

REDACTED 
2162 

0 The President met with for 18 

minutes in the Oval office shortly after the Swearing-in 

event 

0 At 2:25 p.m-, the President met with 

met privately with him for two minutes ~LL~L 

a The President called 

He also attempted to call 

0 The President met with 

-- _. 

968~DC-00000254 

REDACTED 

0 The President and Mrs. Clinton departed at 7:54 p.m. for 

the DNC VIP reception at the DC Armory. 

They arrived at the Armory @ R:15 p.m., did ~1 rope line 

with 100 people, and departed at 8:37 p.m. for the Gala: 
2163 

They departed at 9:40 p.m., and went to the Hyatt Regency 

for the Saxophone Club reception, . 

REDACTED 

l'he group worked a ropeline and departed the receptron ac 

lo:45 p.m. The President and Mrs. Clinton arrived back at 

the residence at lo:55 p-m. 

lulllllllulaglllllsollllllullilll

0 003615 
2164 

Zmynotes... 

. . 

REDACTED 

The President talked, via phone, with: 

%g-w-00000256 

10:13 a.m. 

11120 a.m. 

- Ccnference Call: 

1148 p.m. 

3:15 p.mJ:48 p.m. 

, 4:03 p.m. 

, 3:32 p.m. 

11:2!5 p.rl1 

3 : 3 /I [J rn _ 

4:20 p.m. llllll11 llllllllll 

00 
2165 

. 1:34 1.7. 

6~56 ?.m. 

7 p.m. 

7:07 ‘ p.lu. 

, 7~20 p.m. 

, 9:47 ‘ p.m. 

11:04 p.m. 

11:02 p.m. 

11:06 p.m 

11:29 p.m. 

%8-DC-00000257 

REDACTED 
Friday, May 2, 1997 

Oval Office Meeting... 

2166 

%8-DC40000258 

REDACTED 

NON-RESPONSIVE 

PAGES REMOVED 
Today... 

2167 

l while the PresidTnt was getting his physical therapv this 

morning - fr3m 7 to 6 a.m. 

* At 9:15 a.m. walked over to the residence to 

meet with the President and give him an update on how this 

newly scheduled day was lining up. 

0 The President and Mrs. Clinton came down at 9:30 a.m., 

l At 9:40, the four principals walked onto the south lawn 

%8-DC-O0000259 
2168 

The President departed for the Dedication of the Roosevelt 

Memorial at 9:45 a.m., arriving there o 9:55 a.m 

REDACTED 

%8-DC40000260 
2169 

The President and entourage toured the Memorial from 11:23 

to 12:22. 

%8-DC40000261 

REDACTED 
2170 

Ths motorcade finallv departed for the White House 

at 12:22‘ p.m. 

e At- 12:35 p.m.. the President came back to the Oval, and 

immediately into a hviefing on the status of the Budget 

negotiations. 

. . *. . 

%8-DC-OWO262 

REDACTED 
At 4:45 p.m., the President made remarks to the Senators at 

the Democratic Retreat. He spoke there for 35 minutes. 

The President and Vice President 

zone at S:.?S p.m . - _ 

departed for the landin? 

They arrived the landing zone and departed via helicopter at 

5:35 p.m. -' - - 

The President arrived the White House at 6:09 p.m. 

0 At 6:20 p.m., the President and Mrs. Clinton arrived on the 

State Floor, ' 

. . The President ate dinner at 9:30 p.m., and retired at 10:30 

p.m. 

Daynotes... 

0 The President ate dinner at 9:30 p.m. 
2172 

The.?resident talk&. via phone, with: 

5:21 p-m. 

3112 p.m. 

L 5:17 3-m. 

4:o-J a.m. 

, Q:35 a.m. 

, a:37 a.m. 

8:50 a.m. 

9:15 a.m. 

1:15 p.m. . 

1:31 p-m. 

1:49 p.m. 

2p.m. 

-6 :12 p-ml. . 

9:31 p.m. 

9:27 p-m. 

_- -. 9:38 p.m. 

lo-03 p.m. 

lo:07 p.mlo:16 p.m. 

1;:16 p-m- 

-- 

-I lo:36 p.m.. 

lo:19 p.m. 

lo:21 p:m. 

lo:22 p.m. 

lo:29 p.m. 

10:31 ;.m. 

11:03 

p.m. 

REDACTED - 

%8-DC-00000265 
217’3 ’

At 11:05 a.m., the President deDarted the General Assemby enroute 

the U.S. Mission 

The Bilateral Meetings 

11:55 to 12:25 p.m. 

The EClateral Meeting \. I 

lasterd from 12:35 p.m. to 1:05 p-m. 

The President departed the U.S. Mission enroute the United 

Nations at 1:05 p.m. - 

He attended a luncheon hc 

from 1:15 to 2:>0 p,m. 

At 3 p.m., the President departed the United Nations 

_ - . 

The Bilateral Meeting 

from 3:45 to 4:15 p.m. 

%8-DC-O000299 

At 4:20 p.m., the President proceeded to the Presidential Suite 

At 5:35 p.m., the President and Mrs. Clinton departed the Hotel 

for the Metropolitan Opera Houst 

-- . . 

REDACTED 

The Clintons departed the Metropolitan Opera at 1O:lO p.m., 

enroute the JFK International Airport,then on Lo D.C. 

They arrived home @ 12:25 a.m. 

11lIllllllllHllullQRIl~lIllllI

0 003659 
2174 

0 The Pre';i+nt ralked, vi2 ?hclle, with: 

8:45 a.m. 

5:07, 5:16 p.m. 

%8-DC-000300 

REDACTED 

l~llllll~lunllllil~lll~~lu

0 003660 
Daynotes... 

0 The President talked, via phone, with: 

8:59 a.m., 9:45 a.m. 

iQ577 a.m. 

n, 11 : 13 a . I!1 

11:27 a.m. 

1: :4G .1 -. 

12:2? p.m. 

--, 2:34 p.m. 

7 , 2:14 p.m. 

4 p m 

, 5:42 p.m. 

B:53 p.m. 

%8-DC-O0000301 

REDACTED 
2176 

Thursday, November 13, 1997 

Today. . . 

The President arrived at the Oval office at 8:OS a.m., and had an 

8:15 a.m., Foreign Policy Meeting this morning in the Cabinet 

Room. 

At 9:15 a-m, the President made a foreign policy call 

At 9:45 a.m., the President Signed the Labor/Health/HHS bill in 

the Oval Office. 

The President golfed with Congressional leaders today from 12 

noon to 4 p.m. at the Army/Navy Golf Course in Arlington (18 

holes) 

The President greeted 50 guests in the State Dining Room at 5:22 

p-m., at a Reception for Democrats who supported the FastTrack 

Bill. 

%8-DC40000302 

REDACTED 

He proceeded to the Oval at 6:34 p.m. He was briefed I 

at 6:47 p.m.' 

He took a Foreign Call 

I llllllll IIl lllll ill Ill! 0 003662 

lllll Il RH 
2177 

He returned to the residence at at 7 p.m., joined 11~. Sandy and 

Mack, for a Private Dinner with Mexico President Zedillc. 

The President greeted President Zedil.10 at the Souli! POrtlco and 

escorted him to the second floor- ZOL- the dinner. [I.:I Sk irle Bowle:; 

visited for five minutes, then departed1 

The President joined Zedillo in the diplomatic room for his 

departure, at 8:45 p.m. 

The President departed the White House at 9:lO p-m.. for a 

Private Birthday party for King Hussein and Queen Noor 

The President returned to the residence at 1:25 a.m 

Daynotes... 

The President talked, via phone, with: 

-- Conference Call 

11:lO a.m. 

12~02 a.m. 

I 12:;; a.m. 

, 11:32 a.m. 

4~44 p-m. 

4:50 p.m. 

4:52 P.m. 

, 4:59 p.m. 

, 2:47 p.m. 

3:43 p.m. 

9:38 a.m. 

REDACTED 

6130 p.m 

IIllnlInllIlllllal~~llllllIill 

0 003663 
2178 

Saturday, December 6, 1997 

Today... 

The President spent much of the day working in the Oval office. 

He went there at 9:27 a-n., and remained there until 1:54 p.m. 

He returned to the Oval a: 4:05 p.m., remaining there until 7:06 

p.m. 

Today's News... 

REDACTED 

%8-DC-O000304 
2179 

REDACTED 

Daynotes... 

The President talked, via phone, with: %8-DC-00000305 

9:06 a.m. 

, : 5 0 e d ill 

11-3: s.m 

12~48 p.m. 

5 : 00 !: II) 
2180 

, 7-<9 ? c? 

5:08 p.m. . . 

4:35 p.m. 

5:OS p.m. 

REDACTED 

%8-DC-00000306 
Today.., 

The President met this morning with Erskine and Sylvia in the 

Oval at 9:17 a.m., for 11 minutes 

At 9:31 a.m., he had national security briefing. 

Then, at 9:46 a.m., the group was joined _ _ 

At 9:58 p-m., the President welcomed Prime Minister Ahem into 

the Oval office. 

At lo:51 a.m., the President escorted Prime Minister Ahern to the 

West Lobby door. 

At lo:57 a.m., the President nroceeded to the Cabinet Room for a 

Q--eicm Policy meeting 

The group met until 11:59 a.m. 

At 12:09 p.m., the President was briefed 

He greeted Bill Lann Lee and his family at 12:32 p.m., 

REDACTED 

%8-DC-O0000307 
2182 

%8-DC-O0000308 

REDACTED 

The President met briefly with the Lee family after the event. 

At 1:23 p.m., he met with Senator Leahy in the Dining room. 

He met in the Oval office with Stephanie on his week's schedule, 

with Podesta. 

The President did office work from 1:23 to 4:35 p.m., then went 

to the residence at 4:36 p.m. 

At 5:17 p.m., the President proceeded to the first press 
2183 

reception of the evening in the Diplomatic Reception Room. There 

He procekded to the second press reception at @ 9 p.m. 

Daynotes. i. 

The President talked, via phone, with: 

4:04 p.m. 

4:08 p.m. 

lo:56 p.m. 

11:37 p.m. 

REDACTED . 

%8-DC-O0000309 
2184 

Sunday, December 28, 1997 

Today's News... 

Touay... 

The President and Mrs. 

Church in Washington. 

Clinton attended Foundry United Methodist 

. - -. 

Daynotes.,. 

The President talked, via phone, with: 

9:40 a.m. 

,'10:42 a.m. 

lo:46 a.m. 

, 2:19 p.m. 

6:57 p.m. 

REDACTED 

9&X-00000310 
2185 

-tu=day, May 24, 3.937 

DapoCes. . . 

The President spent most of his "day off" at the Ova.1 office 

working, except fx two hours he spent with Roger on the WH 

putting green - from 2:30 to 5 p.m. 

Ian came at 6:OS for a Presidential hair cut. 

The Clinton ate dinner at 7 p.m. 

He talked, via phone, with: 

, 5:59 p.m. 

, 9:58 p.m. 

, 6:30 p.m. 

The President watched a movie in the family theatre 

from 7:55 to 9:27 p.m. . 

%8-DC-00000266 
2186 

Fridav. M?v 30. 1997 

s The President_ talked, \*ia phone, with: 

. 7:42 p-m: 

6:19 p.m. 

b:Ol p.m. 

3:lG p.m. 

%8-DC40000267 

REDACTED 
2187 

Wednesday, June 11, 1997 

Oval Office Meeting... 

%8-DC40000268 

REDACTED 

NON-RESPONSIVE 

PAGES REMOVED 
2188 

Today... 

0 The President walked in+n t-ho oval about 9:13 a.m., 

0 At 9:33, he was briefed by Sandy on world affairs, 

l Hamad Bin Khalifa Al Thani, Amir of Qatar, was escorted into 

the Oval office at 9:48 a.m. 

. . . 

This meeting lasted for 38 minutes, until lo:26 a.m. 

0 He was briefed for 8 minutes by Lorrie McHugh and Rahm for 

the upcoming conference call interview with Susan Page of 

USA Today. 

The President's interview with Susan Page lasted from lo:55 

a.m. to 11:05 . . . 

I The President signed the Juvenile Justice Executive Order he 

would be announcing today in the Ovcal at 11:28. 

Rahm, briefed the President on the 

upcoming Juvenile Justice event at Georqetown from 11:30 to 

11:44 a.m. in the Oval. 

He departed the White House for Georqe+own University at 

11:48 a.m. 

REDACTED 

%,8-DC-00000269 . 
2189 

a The Fresident departed Georgetown University via motorcade 

at 12:34 p.m., arriving back at the White House at 12:43 

p.lTl. He sent word to Nancy H. that he would remain at the 

residence until @ 3p.m. He, in fact, returned to the Oval at 

4:OS p.m. 

a From 4:08 p.m. to 4:13 p.m., he visited wit1 

I long time friends, in the Oval. 

At 4:15, the President was briefed for his upcominq 

interviews ( 

The Frisbee interview was a conference call interview, and 

lasted from 4:33 to 5:05 p.m. 

The second interview was with the Trotter Group ~ _ 

6:2l p.m. 

. - 

and lasted from 5:ll p.m. to 

At 6:28 p.m. the President was briefed 

The Congressional meeting took place in the Yellow Oval 

Room, and lasted from 6:58 p.m. to 8:ll p.m, 

0 The President departed the residence at 8:14 p.m. for the 

Mayflower Hotel, where a Democratic National Committee 

Dinner was being held. 

REDACTED 

%8-DC40000270 
The President and Veep sat in gn a discussion with 

participants. This lasted for 8 an hour, when the President 

greeted the participants, and departed for the residence at 

13:32 p.m. I+ arrived home at lo:36 p.m. 

Daynotw... 

%8-DC40000271 

0 The Preslaent spoke, via pnone, with: 

lo:40 p.m. 

lo:53 p.m. 

- Conference Cal- 

- Conference Call 

lo:54 3.m. 

, WSJ, 4:33 p.m. 

REDACTED 
2191 

Monday, June 16, 1997 

Oval Office Meeting... 

%8-DC-O0000272 

REDACTED 

NON-RESPONSIVE 

PAGESREMOVED 
2192 

Today... 

9&DC-00000273 

REDACTED 

0 The President was "down" most of the day. 

He did his Physical therapy this morning @ lo:30 to 11:45 

p.m. 

0 The President greeted 25 US Open Golf participants at a tea 

in the WH residence today at 1:05 p.m. 

l Today, at 5:39 p.m., the President came over to the 9val. 

He did five vi.deo taninqs in the Roosevelt room, 

0 The President putted on the south lawn for 0 15 minutes 

before he left for the Gary Mauro hooksigning party. 

0 He departed the White House at 6:52 p.m., for a booksigning 

Illllllllmssll~l~llml~lalla

0 003633 
2193 

reception for Gary Mauro at the Willard Hotel. 

He departed the party at 7:24 p.m. enroute the Sheraton 

Carlton Hotel, where he addressed the DNC African American 

leadership Dinner -- 

%8-DC-O0000274 

REDACTED 
2194 

From there, the President proceeded to the Hay Adams noLcr, 

to participate in another DNC dinner, and to thank the 

Jewish American leadership for their support in 1996. 

Daynotes... 

REDACTED 

0 The President talked, via phone, with: 

%8-DC40000275 

11:24 a.m. 

2196 

Tuesday, June 24, 1997 

Oval Office meeting... 

%8-DC-00000277 

REDACTED 

IllllllllIIIIIuIIPIoQIIuIIIRIuIIn

0 003637 
2197 

%8-DC-O0000278 

Daynotes... 

REDACTED 

0 The President came by the Oval at 3:55 p.m., and was there 

for @ an hour before departing for the Armv Navy Countrv 

Club in Arlington to play golf. 

from 5:16 p.m., 

He was at the country club 

to 7:50 p.m. Upon his return, he told 

reporters his golf game was "rusty." 

0 The President, Mrs. Clinton and a qucs 

pool at 8:12 p.m. 
2198 

I 1:20 p.m. 

, 1:17 p.m. 

9:34 0.m: 

8:22 p.m. 

1O:lS p.m. 

;0:38 p-m. 

REDACTED 

9684X-00000279 
2199 

-- ;:I::-, 

-..- .* 

4 , 

q-eLa&, LJJ I 

0 The President proceeded to 

He made a conference call 

the Oval dL 8:40 il.111 

at 11:36 a.m. - ana ralked for 12 minutes. 

Shortly after his. phone-call, the President went outside tc 

the putting green. At 12 noon, he joined Mrs. Clint:on at :I).. 

pool then returned to the residence at 3:15 p.m. 

He returned to the Oval at 3:18 p.m., remalnlng chcre 

until 6:58 p.m. He talked at: 5:28 p.al., 

then proceeded to the residence. He ate dlnncl- with Mrs. 

Clinton at 7:55 p.m. before their departure fo1 S~~I\~II. 

After dinner, the First couple went out onro Lhe sOll~-~1 

portico, where they greeted this year‘s 4th of ,July 

Celebration visitors 

Daynotes... 

l The Presidenr: talked, via phone. wrih: 

lo:22 a-n\. 

lo:25 a.m. 

, 10137 a-n' 

LO:51 a.m. 

:1 , 3:45 p.m. 

4:43 p.m. 

6:29 p.~. 

8:54 p.m. 968-DC-OC)o280 

REDACTED 
2200 

Monday, July 14, 1997 

The President had the morning "off," but made a very important 

announcement, and released a report this afternoon about genetic 

screening. 

Today... 

At 2:28 p.m., the President and Veep proceeded to the Red 

Room to greet program participants - 

-_ 

%8-DC-00000281 

REDACTED 

NON-RESPONSIVE 

PAGESREMOVED 
2201 

%8-DC-ooooo282 

___ 

The event ended at 3:03 p.m., and Che President was down for 

the res: of the day 
2202 

0 The Prrtsicfclnt talked, via 'telephone. wiCh: 

s 12:24 p.m. 

1, 12:56 p-m_ 

I 8:24 p-m5:30 p.m. 

- Conference'kall 

%8-DC-00000233 

REDACTED 
Wednesday, July 

Today... 

zzw 

16, 1997 

0 The President arrived at the Oval at 8:30 a.m., and 

completed his physical therapy at the pool. 

He actually arrived at the south portico, for his 9 a.m., 

photo event with the interns two minutes early! 

At 9:35 a.m., the President met with Erskine, 

Sylvia in the Oval. 

At 10:05, he met with Mark Erwin for 17 minutes. 

He then read over his remarks for @ 20 minutes, then did his 

NSC briefing with at 

lo:49 a.m. 

He met with Chuck Ruff in the Oval at 11:lO a.m., for 10 

minutes as a pre-brief for the Walter Dellinger meeting. 

-. . 

At 11:41 a.m., the President met with General Joulwan in the 

Oval office. Sandy joined the two. 

At 11:53 a.m., the President proceeded to the Veep's 

Ceremonial office in the OEOB, to sit in on his E-Chip 

Meeting. ..~ . . 

They proceeded to Room 450 OEOB at 12:25 p.m., for the 

E-Chip Event. 

%8-DC-O0000284 

REDACTED 

NON-RESPONSIVE 

PAGESREMOVED 
2204 

At 12:58 p.m., the President proceeded to the Oval office, 

and at l:OFi n m . had lunch with the Veep .in the Oval 

office. 

At 1:45 p-m-. the President met 

. - 

in Don Kerrlck's office. 

The President's next meeting was at 6:30 in the residence - 

. . . 

Daynote,q... 

Illulll1llwll~l1111l

0 003645 

2206 

Thursday, July 24, 1997 

Today.;. 

The President arrived at the Oval office at 9:20 a.m., 

and returned to the Yellow Oval room for +he Consressional 

meetina - 

The President returned to the Oval office at 11:45 a.m. to 

greet President Herzog. The delegation then proceeded to 

the Old Family dining room fora luncheon for the foreign 

delegation. The luncheon concluded at 1:25 p.m., and the 

President and Mr. Herzog proceeded to the ground floor and 

said their goodbyes, 

0 The President, accompanied by the Veep, greeted guests in 

the Green room for the Climate Change event, including nobel 

laureates and academicians. 

At 2:30 p.m., the President and Veep proceeded to the East 

Room where they particinated in an hour-long climate change 

event. (1C . \ 

The President and Mrs. Clinton returned to the residence at 

lo:30 p.m. 

Daynotes... 

0 The President talked, via phone, with: 

8:38 a.m. 

9:03 a.m. 

11:43 a.m. 

REDACTED 

%8-DC-00000287 - 
2207 

Saturday, August 16, 1337 

0 The President talked, via @one, wi c !I. 

, 9:lR a.m. 

,‘Y:O’i p.. 

.I p :i: 

‘9:Ol p.m. 

, 9:04 p.::i 

, LO:33 I? . . 

10 : 3 5 p ‘1’ 

10 : 4 4 p II* 

1 I : 4 0 i 111 
2208 

Thursday, September 11, 1997 

%8-DC-OOOOO289 

REDACTED , Today... 

0 The President arrived at the Oval @lo:15 a.m., this morning 

and met with John Podesta from lo:17 to lo:27 a.m. He was 

then joined by Sandy Berger, to make a Conference call to 

Canada- Prime Minister Chretien. They talked for @ 10 

minutes. 

. 

At 11:lO a.m., the President was briefed by Katie McGinty, 

et al, on the American Rivers Heritage event 

The President walked to OEOB at 11:18 a-m, and greeted 
2209 

Immediately after the event in the OEOB, the President 

returned to the Oval office, where he did photo 

oDDortunitiea w;th Q 20 "Friends of Mount Vernon," 

The President lunched with the Veep in the Oval from 12:45 

to 1:45 p.m. 

'I'he President met with Columbian author Gabriel Garcia 

Marquez in the Oval office from 1:36 p.m. to 2:42 p.m. 

REDACTED 
2210 

The President met with Eskine and Sylvia briefly at 2:46 

p-m_ before walking over to the residence, 

The President had two unscheduled meetings this evening 

before he walked over to the residence for the rescheduled 

Congressional Picnic/reception (since it was held inside the 

residence, not the south lawn.) 

He met from 6:21 to 6:58 p.m. and a 

meeting from 6:59 to 7:13 

p.m. 

The congressional reception was scheduled for 7:30 to 8:30 

p-m, but the President kept it soing for another hour. 

Daynotes... 

0 The President talked, via phone,with: 

, lo:02 a.m. 

6:26 p.m. 

%8-DC-OOOOO291 

6:35 p-m. 

- Conference Call lo:34 a.m. 

- 

0 003651 
2211 

Fridav, September 12, 1997 

Today... 

The President had a dental appointment in the residence at 8:30 

a.m. this morning; and made it to the office at 9:30 a.m. 

His first meeting this morning was with John Podesta and Sylvia, 

starting at 9:33 a.m. 

He met with Sandy briefly for his NSC briefing before his meeting 

with Hong Kong, SAR Chief Executive C.H. Tung. 

. 

@ li a.m., the President went to the Yellow Oval Room in the 

residence for his Conqressional meetinc - 

%8-DC40000292 

REDACTED 

NON-RESPONSIVE 

PAGES REMOVED 

At 12 a.m., the President me with Stephanie Streett on his 
2212 

week's schedule, 

At 12:05 p-m_, the President met 

At 1 p.m., the President announced the new Surgeon General in the 

Oval office. 

REDACTED 

%8-DC-oOOO293 
2213 

F 1. i)ill 1: 58 to 2:lO p 1::. , YiIS P1-:'.$ld.?:!c ;.;Ip":i 1, : 1 ri?c 

messages in the Roos?vei; Room. 

After the tapings, the President :?:e: wlLh 

from 3:40 to 3:55 p.m. 

0 From 5 to 5:50 p.m.+ th? President met wrzh t::.z Tobaccc.1 

group Ln the Cabinet meeting. 

9 The President's L-acirs address was 0:: Carnpa:grt i;.?fornt. !L 

was taped in tile Rocsevel: Room at >:35 p.:r., 1:: front of. 

one of the smaliest -3lld 1 -=nro.c ; p ,- r_ :; .p r.apir,q !.' CI whllci . 35 

people. 

l The President talked, via phone, with: 

’ , 1:Sl p.m. 

, 7 35 P.i!l. 

, -7:Oi p.m. 

_, 7:27, 7:50, 7:53 p.m. 

., 8.23 p.m. 

, 4:22. ?-46 ?.::I 

96%DC-ooooo294 

REDACTED 

l The President ate dinner at 8 a.m. 

0 He watched "G.T. Jane" in the tamily thcatre f>\ 9 :(I', p.m. , 
2214 

Monday, September 22, 1997 

The President was in New York today, to make an U.N. address 

before the 52nd Session of the United Nations General Assembly. 

He also meets with UN Sec. Koffi'Annan, does the Met Opera's 

debut of "Carmen," then returns - after 12 midnight - to the 

white House. 

Erskine's morning meeting... 

The President and Mrs. Clinton is in New York. He will meet with 

Kofi Annan this morning, then do the UN General Assembly Address. 

He has two bilaterals this morning: Pakistan and Russia. 

He has a luncheon at the U.N., then another bilateral with India. 

The President and Mrs. Clinton will attend the Metro Opera at 

5:30 p.m. 

%8-DC-O0000295 

NON-RESPONSIVE 

PAGESREMOVED 

REDACTED 
2215 

Sylvia’s 8~30 meeting.. . 

REDACTED 
2216 

Today. . . 

The President was brief-d thiq morning in the Presidential Suite 

of the Waldorf Astoria, 

At 9:lS a.m., he Cfenai+Pil the Wal.dorf for the United Nations. 

968-DC-00000297 REDACTED 
2217 

At 9:45 a.m., the President met with Foreign Minister Udovenko of 

the Ukraine (same WH/Administration participants.) 

At lo:45 a.m., 

United Nations, 

the President arrived the General Assembly of the 

and was escorted to his seat by Ambassador MuziFalconi. 

He was invited to address the General Assembly, and proceeded.to 

speak for the next 19 minutes: 

%8-DC-O0000298 

REDACTED 
2218 

_\t ll:OS a.m., the President deDarted the General Assmby enroute 

the U.S. Mission 

The Bilateral Meetings 

11:55 to 12:25 p.m. 

The Xlateral Meeting 1. * 

lasterd from 12:35 p.m. to 1:05 p-m_ 

The President departed the U.S. Mission enroute the United 

Nations at 1:05 p.m. _ 

He attended a luncheon hc 

from 1:15 to 2:>0 p-m. 

At 3 p.m., the President departed the United Nations 

- _ . 

The Bilateral Meeting 

%8-DC-OOOW299 

from 3:45 to 4:15 p.m. 

At 4:20 p.m., the President proceeded to the Presidential Suite 

At 5:35 p-m_, the President and Mrs. Clinton departed the Hotel 

for the Metropolitan Opera House 

REDACTED 

The Clintons departed the Metropolitan Opera at 1O:lO p.m., 

enroute the JFK International Airport,then on to D.C. 

They arrived home @ i2:25 a.m. 

lllIlllllllllaalllllllall 

0 003659 
2219 

0 The President talked, vi2 ?hcge, with: 

8:45 a.m. 

5:07, 5:16 p.m. 

%8-DC40000300 

REDACTED 
2220 

c1.- c d-_'Jz'Iay, October 11, 1997 

Daynotes... 

0 The President talked, via phone, with: 

8:59 a.m., 9:45 a.m. 

IQ:57 a.m/ 

n, 11 : 13 a .l!l. 

11:27 a.m. 

11:4r, .\ .. 

12:21 p.m. 

-, 2:34 p.m. 

-. , 2:14 p.m. 

.1 p m 

, 5:42 p.m. 

u:S3 p.m. 

%8-DC-OOOOO301 
2221 

Thursday, November 13, 1997 

Today... 

The President arrived at the Oval office at 8:05 a.m., and had an 

8:15 a.m., Foreign Policy Meeting this morning in the Cabinet 

Room. 

At 9:15 a.m, the President made a foreign policy call 

At 9:45 a.m., the President Signed the Labor/Health/HHS bill in 

the Oval Office. 

The President golfed with Congressional leaders today from 12 

noon to 4 p.m. 

holes) 

at the Army/Navy Golf Course in Arlington (18 

The President greeted 50 guests in the State Dining Room at 5:22 

p-m-, 

Bill. 

at a Reception for Democrats who supported the FastTrack 

%8-DC40000302 . 

REDACTED 

He proceeded to the Oval at 6:34 p.m. He was briefed I 

. He took a Foreign Call 

at 6:47 p.m. 

Illlll~lIllilllllIlnlllllllHIllIc 0 003662 
2222 

He returned to the residence at at 7 p.m_, joined 1)~. Sandy and 

Mack, for a Private Dinner with Mexico President Zedillo. 

The President greeted President: Zedil.10 ai: the Souti! Portico and 

escorted him to the second floor SOL the dinner-. (I.:1 Sk ills Bowlc:; 

visited for five minutes, then departed] 

The President joined Zedillo in the diplomatic room for his 

departure, at 8:45 p.m. 

The President departed the White Housc at 9:lO p.m., for a 

Private Birthday party for King Hussein and Queen Noor 

The President returned to the residence at 1:25 a.m 

Daynotes... 

The President talked, via phone, with: 

-- Conference Call 9:38 a.m 

11:lO a.m. 

_, 12:02 a.m 

, 12:30 a.m. 

, 11:32 a.m. 

4:44 p.m. 

4150 p.m. 

4:52 P.m. 

, 4159 p.m. 

, 2:47 p.m. 

3:43 p.m. 

REDACTED 

6130 p.m. 

%8-DC40000303 

0 003663 
2223 

Saturday, December 6, 1997 

Today... 

The President spent much of the 

He went there at 9:27 a.m., and 

He returned to the Oval at 4:05 

p.m. 

Today's News... 

day working in the Oval office. 

remained there until 1:54 p.m. 

p-m., remaining there until 7:06 

REDACTED 

%8-DC-W00304 
2224 

REDACTED 

Daynotes... 

The President talked, via phone, with: %8-DC40000305 

9:06 a.m. 

, 1 1 0 8 d 1’: 

11-31 a.m 

5 : 0 6, !) ,,I 
2225 

5:08 p.m. 

4:3S p.m. 

S:OS p.m. 

REDACTED 
Today.., 

The President met this morning with Erskine and Sylvia in the 

Oval at 9:17 a.m., for 11 minutes 

At 9:31 a.m., he had national security briefing. 

Then, at 9:46 a.m., the group was joined 

_ . 

At 9:58 p.m., the President welcomed Prime Minister Ahern into 

the Oval office. 

. 

At lo:51 a.m., the President escorted Prime Minister Ahern 

West Lobby door. 

At lo:57 a.m., the President nroceeded to the Cabinet Room 

Qnreian Policy meeting 

to the 

for a 

The group met until 11:59 a.m. 

At 12:09 p.m., the President was briefed 

He greeted Bill Lann Lee and his family at 12:32 p-m., 

REDACTED 

%8-DC-O0000307 
2227 

%8-DC-O0000308 

.'he President 

At 1:23 p.m., 

He met in the 

with Podesta. 

met briefly with the Lee family after the event. 

he met with Senator Leahy in the Dining room. 

Oval office with Stephanie on his week's schedule, 

The President 

to the residence at 4:36 p-m. 

did office work from 1:23 to 4:35 p.m., then went 

REDACTED 

At 5117 p.m., the President proceeded to the first press 
2228 

reception of the evening in the Diplomatic Reception Room. There 

He proceeded to the second press reception at @ 9 p.m. 

Daynotes.,. 

The President talked, via phone, with: 

4:04 p.m. 

4:08 p.m. 

lo:56 p.m. 

11:37 p.m. 

REDACTED . 

%8-DC-OOOOO309 
2229 

Sunday, December 28, 1997 

Today's News... 

Today... 

The President and Mrs. 

Church in Washington. 

Clinton attended Foundry United Methodist 

Daynotes... 

The President talked, via phone, with: 

9:40 a.m. 

lo:42 a.m. 

lo:46 a.m. 

2:19 p.m. 

6:57 p.m. 

REDACTED 

968~DC-OOtKB310 
2230 

TH,E WHITE HOUSE 

WASH1 NGTON 

PRESIDENTIAL CALL LOG 

DECEMBER 15th, .19 97 

TIME 

PLACED DISC 

.- -- 

NAME ACTION 

-_- - I 

--.- - 

- x-3 ---77s 

ax MS. BETTY W. CURRIE TLKD-OK lo:56 P.M. 

,NC lo:56 ,,10:58 

OtITI aIVOO6-DC-00002061 
2231 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGT6N 

PRESIDENTIAL CALL LOG 

SIGNAL SWITCHBOARD 

January 9. 1998 

TIME NAME ACTION 

I PLACED ( DISC 1 

T-i kd-ok 

5:08 PM 

- 

Tl kd-ok 

5:12 PM 

VOO6-DC-00002064 

REDACTED 

lulllul~ullllllllellnll~lllH

HB 003063 
2232 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

Page 1 

JUNE 14, 1996 

1:46 a.m. FRIDAY 

9:25 9:34 

6:00 6:Ol R The President talked with 

6:06 6:07 R The President talked with 

7:05 P The President telephoned 

7:30. R The President was telephoned by 

10:33 10:40 

VWDC-00002073 

REDACTED 

m 

lllllln 111111 llllllllll uln 1111111 Illi III1 

HB 003072 
2233 

OIC-302 (Rev. 8-19-94) 

- 1 - 

OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

Date of txanscription 2/7/98 

TIMOTHY JOHN KEATING, white male, born f-4 

home address, 

the firm of Swindler & Berlin, 3000 K Street, 

telephone_, 

N.W., Suite 300, 

who was present throughout the interview. 

After being advised of the personal and official 

identities of the interviewers and the purpose of the interview, 

KEATING provided the following information: 

KEATING is currently employed as Vice President and 

Partner, Timmons and Company, 1850 K Street, N-W., Washington, 

D.C., office telephone f-j, cell phone -. 

From January of 1993 through March of 1996 and from 

November of 1996 through March of 1997, KEATING was employed as 

Special Assistant to the President and Staff Director of 

Legislative Affairs with an office in the West Wing of the White 

House, second floor, telephone _ From April of 1996 

through October of 1996, KEATING was assigned to work on the 

Democratic National Convention. 

KEATING first became aware of MONICA LEWINSKY in about 

early November of 1995. There was an opening in the 

Congressional Correspondence Section at Legislative Affairs. 

LEWINSKY was brought to KEATING's attention by ASHLEY RAINES, 

Special Liaison to Management and Administration, as a bright 

young intern working in the Chief of Staff's Office, who RAINES 

thought would do well in KEATING's office. 

KEATING followed up on RAINES' suggestion and 

interviewed LEWINSKY. LEWINSKY was also recommended by JENNIFER 

PALMIERI and LEON PANETTA. KEATING hired LEWINSKY to work in the 

Congressional Correspondence Section of Legislative Affairs. 

LEWINSKY initially performed well in the job but spent 

too much time out of the office and not enough time doing what 

she should have been doing. The Congressional Correspondence 

Section was only a two-person office supervised by JOCELYN 

JOLLEY. Since it was such a small office with a large volume of 

lnvcsttgation on 2/6/'98 a( Washington, D.C. FileR 29D-LR-35063 

by Date dictated 
2234 

OK-302a (Rev. 8- 19-94) 

29D-LR-35063 

ContinuationofOIC-302 of TIMOTHY JOHN KBATING .On z/6/98 .hge 2 

work, everyone needed to.work hard. 

LEWINSKY was frequently away from her desk. When 

questioned about these absences, LEWINSKY would have a ready 

excuse, such as, delivering a letter to the Old Executive Office 

Building, the West Wing of the White House, or an unscheduled but 

necessary trip to "the Hill." KEATING described LEWINSKY's work 

habits as having "poor time management." 

KEATING could not recall any specific disciplinary 

problems and LEWINSKY was never given a written reprimand; 

however, LEWINSKY was given a few verbal reprimands and counseled 

about her lack of proper time management. 

KEATING gave an example of LEWINSKY's poor time 

management as when LEWINSKY would deliver a single piece of 

correspondence rather than waiting until several pieces of 

correspondence had accumulated for delivery to a distant 

location. 

As mentioned above, JOLLEY and LEWINSKY were the only 

people working in the Congressional Correspondence Section of the 

Legislative Affairs Office. There were other Legislative Affairs 

employees working in the East Wing near the Congressional 

Correspondence Section. KEATING identified these employees as 

JANET MURGUIA, assigned as House Liaison; TRACY THORNTON, Senate 

Liaison; BARBARA CHOW, Senate Liaison; LUCIA WYMAN, House 

Liaison; ANN JOHNSON, Staff Assistant; ANN CATTALINI, Staff 

Assistant: and six to eight, short-term interns working in 

various locations throughout the Legislative Affairs Office. 

KEATING was not aware of any of LEWINSKY's co-workers 

in Legislative Affairs who could be considered a close friend of 

LEWINSKY. KEATING was also not aware of any one in the White 

House who could be considered a close friend of LEWINSKY with the 

possible exception of ASHLEY RAINES. 

KEATING did not have a personal relationship with 

LEWINSKY and LEWINSKY never told KEATING of having a sexual 

affair with anyone in the White House or anywhere else. KEATING 

has never heard rumors or gossip about LEWINSKY having a sexual 

affair with anyone in the White House. 
2235 

OIC-302a (Rev. 8-19-94) 

29D-LR-35063 

lation of OIC-302 of TIMOTHY JOHN KEATING .on 2/6/98 .RgC_ 3 

KEATING is aware of why LEWINSKY and JOLLEY were both 

moved out of the Congressional Correspondence Section. KEATING 

described the work in the Congressional Correspondence Section as 

being very demanding and stressful, with short "turn-around" 

times on responding to the man 

Affairs. Both LEWINSKY and 

letters relating to Legislative 

yI were "in over their heads." 

LEWINSKY did not appear to be able to make the transition from an 

intern to a staff member, and handle the resulting work pressure. 

The final incident which caused both JOLLEY and 

LEWINSKY to be moved from Congressional Correspondence was when 

they took a large l'batch" of correspondence to the Office of 

Management and Budget, some of which were up to six months old, 

and demanded that the Office of Management and Budget prepare 

immediate responses. 

The incident was reported to JODIE TORKBLSON, Director 

of the Office of Administration, who took the matter to EVELYN 

LIBBERMAN, Deputy Chief of Staff, 

KEATING's attention. 

who brought the matter to 

In addition, LIBBERMAN called to KEATING's attention 

that LIBBERMAN had observed LEWINSKY on several occasions walking 

around the West Wing, seemingly trying to observe the President 

or other high officials and get in a "photo-op." 

The collective decision was made to move both JOLLEY 

and LEWINSKY from the Congressional Correspondence Section to a 

less demanding position elsewhere in the government. 

KBATING contacted both BOB NASH, Director, and PATSY 

THOMASSON, Deputy Director, Presidential Personnel Office, and 

discussed with both of them the possibility of relocating both 

qw LEWINSKY. 

_ was found a position at General Services 

Administration and LEWINSKY was placed in the Department of 

Defense at the Pentagon by the Presidential Personnel Office. 

After LEWINSKY's transfer to the Pentagon, KEATING did 

see.LEWINSKY at the White House on a few occasions. KEATING 

recalled seeing LEWINSKY at a l'Welcome Home" party at the White 

House just after the 1996 election. KEATING also recalled seeing 
2236 

OK-302a 0t.e~. 8-l 9-94) 

29D-LR-35063 

Continuation of OK-302 of TIMOTHY JOHN KEATING ,on 2/6/98 .plgc 4 

LEWINSKY in the West Wing; 

way near the White House. 

area of the Oval Office. 

near the Staff Mess; and on the driveKEATING has not seen LEWINSKY in the 

KEATING spoke to LEWINSKY on these occasions but never 

inquired as to LEWINSKY's reason for being at the White House. 

KHATING has no knowledge of the President visiting the 

Congressional Correspondence Section while LEWINSKY worked there. 

KEATING explained the Oval Office is located in the West Wing 

while the Congressional Correspondence Section is located in the 

East Wing. The two offices are some distance apart. KEATING felt 

certain that staff members would have made him aware of any 

visits by the President. 

KEATING has talked to no one other than family members 

and his attorney about today's interview. KHATING did meet last 

evening with HAROLD ICKES for drinks and mentioned to ICKES that 

he was being interviewed today. There was no discussion of what 

the interview was to be about; what KEATING'was going to say; nor 

did ICKES indicate to KEATING what KEATING should s?y during the 

interview. 
2237 

Timothy Keating, 2/25/98 

Grand Jury 

Page 1 to Page 113 

CONDENSED TRANSCRIPT AND CONCORDANCE 

PREPARED BY: 

OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 

Suite 490-North 

Washington, DC 20004 

Phone: 202-514-8688 

FAX: 202-5 14-8802 
2238 

Timothy Keating, 2/25tS8 

Page 1 

,. 

,- UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 

FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 

iz:___ __--_-__- ____x 

!?- 

[4‘ln re: 

!f’ 

;bjGRAND JURY PROQEEDINGS 

I-: [g:____ _______-___- x 

13: Grand Jury Room No. 4 

[ICI United Statas District Court 

111: for the Distnct of Columbia 

112: Third 8 Constitution, N.W. 

r13: Washington. DC. 299Ol 

114: Wed.nesday. Februa 

i:ijths 

The teshmon of TIMOT x 

25.1998 

Y JOHN KEATING was taken in 

resence of a fu 

Il?:Cil % 

?l quorum of Grand Jur 97-2. impaneled 

ptembar 19. 199 , commencing at 1 :03 p.m., before: 

11s: SOLOMON WtSENBERG 

(19: MARY ANNE WtRTH 

120: DAVID BARGER 

j21; 

122: 

Associate Ihdapartd~~~~~~3l 

(23: 

124: 

%%s$r$~venue, Northwest 

125: Washington, DC. 20004 

Page 2 

[II 

12 !Whereupon. 

TIMO~Y JOHN KEATING 

Ii&as called as a mtness and. after being first duly sworn by 

~s;ths Deputy Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and 

~~:tsstified as follows: 

c7: EXAMINATlON 

;;1 

BY MR. WlSENBERG: 

rloipkase. 

Q Could you state your name for the grand jurors, 

III; A 

Q 

lImothy John Keating. 

117; And could ou spell your last name. 

[?31 A Certanty. k e-a-t-i-n-g. 

Q Mr. Kaating. my name is Sol Wisenbarg. We met 

i ::; m the hall;ay yesterday; rs that correct? 

li6. That ts correct, sir. 

(1’: MR. WlSENBERG: And I’m here with my colleague, 

i 1 s Mary Anne Wirth. We’re both with the Offrice of Independent 

[:o:Counsel. 

!20 And these are the grand jurors, and this is the 

,r-::Grand Ju court reporter. 

r et the record refiect that we have a quorum. and 

it: Jthsrs are no unauthomed persons in the Grand Jury room. 

i ? ;. That’s correct. IS rt not? I-.:, ,-a. DEPUTY FQREPERSON: Yes, it is. 

Page 4 Page 7 

-1 

. BY MR. WlSENBERG: 

I-. &-. Q Before we start, I’m going to briefly talk about 

: 3 ‘our authonty and your fghts and responsibilitres as a 

:I Grand JuryAwrtness. 

15: 

r 0 

; z ~snmsthtng I’ve 

~%%onally ask you if you understand 

;~~resoonse - 

read to you, and I’ll nead a audible 

;:j 

A _ Yes, sir. 

Q You are not a target. Do you understand ‘that? 

j61 A Yes, sir. 

Iii but the 

Q A subject is somebody who’s not at target status, 

I gjtheir be I! 

rosewtor and grand jurors have 

avlor. Do you understand that de 

uestions about 

% nition? 

101 A Yes, sir. 

111 Q You are not a subject. Do you understand that? 

12; A Yes, sir. 

Q 

: : ~ within the Grand Jury’s ‘urisdiction to Inquire about. 

A mtness is somebody who has information that b 

Do 

lslyou understand that de f! nitron? ” 

161 A Yes, sir. 

171 Q You are a witness. Do you understand that? 

181 A Yes. sir. 

Q 

iilnevar ba a sub ct or a target? 

Do you understand we can’t guarantee you ytnftl 

211 A ?es sir. 

0 

&at oJrmct7 

All hht. You’re hers pursuant to subpoena; h 

!41 A That’s correct, sir. 

251 Q Dii you bring any documents with you? 

out 

i I 7 1 laws mvotirng possibb 

f I 8 1 subornation of 

rjury. obstruction of justice. and 

1191 A !%!%r. 

E you understand? 

120: Q You may refuse to answer any question, if a 

[ 2 I J truthful answer to that question would tend to incriminats 

122 1 you. Do you understand mat? 

f131 A Yes. sir. 

Q Anythi 

iI:iths Grand Jury or In a “% 

that you do say may be used against you by 

ter legal proceeding. Do you 

Page 5 

:: : understand that? 

.-. A Yes, sir. 

,-. :z. Q If you have retained counsel, he or she can’t 

: I : be in here with you, but the Grand Jury will pannit ou 

::‘a reasonable o portunrty to ste outside the Gran 

;f: ~~~‘u$$vith counsel. &ou desin. Do yi 

Jury 

A Yes, sir. 

Q 

A 

Your counsel is outside; is that correct? 

That is corract. sir. 

Q What is your i20un5idk name? 

A Jim Hamilton. 

i I 6 i understand that? 

117: A Yes, sir. 

IIs: Q You are not bound by any oath of secrecy. Do you 

I I 9 : understand that? 

r231 A Yes, sir. 

12:: Cl 

r22!appearance. or not talk to them a all. 

You can talk to an~y#p;~~~nbpu; your 

mland your attome . Do you understand that? 

124! A & sir. 

IX: Q Now, 1’11 tell you about some of the excaptii to 

Page 6 

II”: 

j1;: 

A Yes, sir. 

Q They are also bound by an oath of sezrecy. but thay 

r 14 : wet to know what aoes on. Do you understand that? 

ilsi- A Ye$ sir, I do. 

(16: Q Independent counsel, under certain circumstances, 

[ i 7 :with a court order - when and if the rnde ndent counsel 

[ 18 ! makes his or her report to the House of &e epresentatives. 

I 19 wth the proper court order,. independent counsels can nveal 

rzotcettain thinas that haooen rn front of the Grand Jury. Do 

ii f j YOU undersland thaty r _ -_ ix!; A 

Q 

Yes, sir, I do. 

All ht. There are three kinds of witness who 

K : ; - in front of the % rand 

j25land targets. 

Jury - witnesses, subjects, 

i 

[. 

I 

r: 

6lCStam - PageltoPage? 
2239 

asA Timothy Keating, 2/25/98 

-- 

Page 8 

::; A No. sir. 

Q 

/:iyesterday. 

Okay. Your attorney handed me a statement 

141 A Yes, sir. 

151 Q .-, Do vou have a CODY of that statement with vou? 

(61 A I do*not. I - ’ _ 

Q KS basically a statement to the effect that at 

[i i one time after Monica Lewmsky 

[ 9 I over, or helped send her over to 9 

ot - after you sent her 

he Pentagon, that she sent 

t~olyou a letter con-@laining about it; is that correct? 

1111 A lt was more than that. I mean, it was a ktter, 

1;;; you know.QaMgtzpme back. 

.--. 

I141 

[ISI 

A ltwa-sQ Okay. 

ou know, it was a pka come to back. 

WI e II get into that later. 

II61 A Yes, sir. 

Cl But the point is, as I understand it - you correct 

~~~jmeifI’mwrong-yougotridofthatletterand.asfaras 

r~glyou know, it doesn’t exrst anymon. 

r201 A 

1211 Q 

As far as I know,, rt does not exist anymore. 

Was it a handwntten note? 

1221 A lt was handwritten. 

1231 Q Qkav. You know that YOU can’t lie to us. .~., 

[241 

USI 

A Yes-sir. 

Q Atl right. tf you ill. that’s pajury. and that’s 

[I! 

i2! 

Page 11 

A No, srr. 

0 Okav. Before there - before - that’s ACLI 

[3]KS called? 

(4: A Yes. sir, ACLI. 

(51 0 Before there? 

(61 A I was at the White House. 

[71 0 What was your job at the White House? 

rs1 A Special assistant to the President and staff 

[ gjdirector for legislative affairs. 

Q All right. Wtihin legislative affairs what level 

i:yiis staff director? I mean. number one person? dumber two 

112 1 person? Number three person? 

[131 A There’s - the White House is in tiers. Assista-% 

114 lto the Presidant is the top bar. Then there’s a deputy 

r 15 1 assistant to the President. and special assistant to the 

I I 61 President_ I fall in between special and deputy. 

[171 Q okay. 

llBl A ttwasauniquerok. 

[I91 Q But, I mean within legislative affairs. 

1201 

I211 $ %h:‘-‘? 

1221 A Number three. in all likelihood. 

1231 Q AH right. Who was number two? 

I241 A SusanBrophy. 

1251 0 Who was number one? 

Page 9 

[ I 1 a federal crime. 

[21 A Yes, sir. 

Q All right. If there’s any question you don’t 

I: 1 understand, please ask us to repeat rt because. you know, 

(51 it’s vague, we haven’t quite asked it in the right way, 

[6]Ks incoherent. 

[71 A Yes, sir. 

0 

[iiclear. okay? 

Ask us to repeat it, and we’ll try to make it more 

[lOI A Okay, sir. 

0 All nght. Before we go on, are there any questions 

I:: i ou have about your rights and responsibilities as a 

( 13 1 E rand Jury witness or about our authority? 

I14i A 

:15: 

(16: 2 

(171 

i181 2 

I191 

i201 AQ 

I211 

tgiiin 1985. 

AQ 

[‘4; 

!15; 

No. sir. 

Okay. How old are you? 

Thirty-six years old. 

And where are you from originally? 

Originally Scranton, Pennsylvama 

All right. Tell us about your education. 

%$tg”$~re?~~ou graduate? 

Oh, I graduated from the University of Scranton 

All nght. And what is your current occupation? 

I’m a lobbyist. 

Page 10 

[ I 5 1 trade association here in Washington that represents 540 

[ 16 ] InsUranm CmIpanes. 

[I71 

11fl1 

0 ;zlsynnsylvania Avenue? 

A 

t--1 

I191 a Q&~~And how tong were you doing that? 

I’01 A Ten months. 

1’11 Q 

A 

And what did you say - via president for what? 

Federal affairs. I was a lobbyist. I was the 

~~:~chief Democratic lobb ist. 

(241 Q All nab r . You weren’t in the communications 

izsjafea there? - 

Page 12 

A 

I:itime period? 

There were several people - during this 

[31 Q 

A 

Well, when you left. 

[41 

Q 

When I left. t was John Hilley. 

~~~staff director for? 

Okay. And what were the years that you workad as 

A I was speaal assistant to the President when I 

Iilfirst went in in 1993. I moved u to staff director in 1994 

[ 9 1 and was staff director in ‘94. ’ 

[lO]Of ‘97. 

‘9$‘96. And I teft in April 

%oo. right? 

Q okay. Plus, you ware staff director when you kft. 

il3i - A Yes. sir. 

Q 

1:::‘97. When did YOU sav in ‘93? 

Okay. April ‘97. So you’re there from ‘93 to 

i16j A The fitit day. January - 

1171 Q Is 3~ January 2Oth? 

1181 A - 201h. 

1191 Q Of 1993. until April of ‘97. comzct? 

I201 A 

Q 

Yes, sir. lt was April 15th. 

I:: ;??4. correct? 

Okay. And you became staff director in 

(231 A I’m sorry, I sag April. KS March. I’m trying 

(24110 tTgure T eM;nrrt Patncks Day was. 

I251 

Page 13 

[ll A March. 

121 Q March 15th. 

[31 A Yes, sir. 

I41 Q 

I51 

Okay. KS almost as famous as April 15th. 

A Thats it. 

Q Well, how did you get your job in office of 

It;legislative affairs? 

[al A When I - I was working on the Hill, and I was 

I 9 J contacted by Howard Paster. This was after the election in 

I I o I November. Howard was doing the confirmation team for the 

I I 11 President’s cabinet. He was gettrn them confirmed. And he 

[ 12 J asked if I would come down and he 9 p hrm. 

1131 Q 

A 

All right. And you just stayed on? 

t::ibafora January 

Yeah, I did. And sometime - you know. sometins 

- 

[ 16 I Howard had ask d 

ou know, probably sometime in December - 

me to tome on as special assistant to the 

117 I Pnsident and try and halp him run - manage things in 

ri~jtagislatiie affairs. 

[191 Q 

I201 

rz11 

Aa 

In September of when? 

N~no,~_ sorry - December. 

1241 A Yes, sir. 

1251 Q Qkay. Ha was the original head of tegislative 

Page 8 to Page 13 OlC-Stur 
2240 

6% Timothy Keating, 2125198 X~YJ) 

Page 14 

.:. affairs - Howard Paster? 

:- _-. -2’ 

.-. 

14‘ 

A Yes, sir. 

Q That’s P-a-s-te-r? 

A P-a-s-t++. 

;g Q All right. And he was replaced by who? 

16: A He was re 

i71 Q All right. 1 

laced by Pat Griffin. 

[ 3 1 Hilley? 

nd then Griffin was replaced by 

i91 A John Hillay. 

Q Okay. Well, we’ll get into exactly the times that 

Iii i the number ona peopfe there were in a minute. 

[12! A Yes, srr. 

Q Tell us what you did. What were your duties when 

ir:;‘you went to work there? 

(15: A Various duties. I was - even though I didn’t have 

tlslthe tile of staff director yet, I generatly was. 

[:7 J know, any personnel decistpns, movrng 

I - you 

[: P Iwas an admrnistrative function to that ofI& 

op1~ ;;rtdn&- there 

I I 9 I that. as well as lobbied both House and Senate on any issue 

i 20 i that came before the Congress. 

I didnY usually track it through committee. I 

i::‘jjust - I did the floor piece of it because of personal 

t29lralationshi s with members of the Howe and Senate. 

;;; ; of: What jd M~;$td~ich leads into my next question 

Page 17 

i: iOffiCial conwonents. if there were any? Was it broken down 

[ 2 ; into sections. dwisions? 

A There was yes. Then was a West Win 

I: ;whare I was There’s whdra tha director was, tha dap 

I 5 I direct, mysaf and two staff assistants. 

uit 

oftice, 

I61 Than there was the East Wrng. and that was broken 

17 I into three piaces. There was a House liaison of%ca: there 

I e 1 was a Senata liaison office; and then there waa an &ice 

rslof corraspurience. 

1101 So the office was really separatr?d. you know. I 

I 11 iwas in the West Win 

I 12 I And then. in the Eas P, 

everybody else was in the East Wing. 

Wtng. the House was on one sida of 

r13~tha aisle, tha Senate was on the other side. And than 

[ 14 I down the hkvay. in a saparate corridor, was the off& 

rlstof corresponance. 

1161 Q Would it ba fair to say that the West Wv\g oftiqe 

Page 15 

I’ A : A 

i?jaffairs? 

What’s the function of office of legislative 

!31 Q Right. 

A You’re the liaison between the Hill and the 

I: i President - and vice versa, between the President and 

t 6: the Hill. 

You - you know, ifthere’s a problem that - 

i ;iLgrslative priorities - forward. 

a. ou’re trying to push the admuustration s priorities - 

1’: You’re also - you know, 

: 1: to Congress - the members of the L 

ou also have to represent 

ouse and Senate - to the 

;: - President - this is what they’re saying. 

:3: Q Okay. 

14. A So its a - it’s a reversa role. It’s both sides. 

15. Q You mentioned that you would ba involved before a 

: E : bill got to committee stage? 

,- A No, I’d usually - I did it when it hit the floor. 

19. 

.9. 

-. 

AQ cse;;. hit the flood 

_1-. 

--. Q 

A 

Okay. What does that mean, when it hits the floor7 

2: 

- -. before the 

When - when it comes -when it comes. actually, 

__ body. 

23: Q Out of committee? 

1; A Yes, sir. When it comes out of committee and goes 

: 5 to the floor of the House or to the floor of the Senate. 

Page 16 

:. Q 

_ your contacts? 

Because that’s where your contacts were - more of 

: - A 

0 

It’s members, yeah. 

: l. le 

Now, it’s not onl 

r 

people who work in office of 

9 

rslative affairs who are able o move things on the Hill; 

.e. IS hat correct? 

._ A All items that are moved on the Hill should be 

,,:. ,-a, A That’s true, yeah. But Is usually done in 

: 16’cpordination with. 

l%a&~u know - yeah that’s always been a 

124 lproblem with every administration, n&t only this. 

125; Q What were the components of the office - the 

Page 18 

11lface on the Hill. 

~:~itfortheSanata. 

60 one group does it for the House, one group does 

Q All of thesa 

I:;the deputydkauor work 

ople. aside from the director and 

rslthe chain of ammand. 

ad% you. They were under you in 

A 

: i 1 a House dawtv and there was a Senate dac&. 

Yeah. There weratwodepubes though. Tharawas 

. . 

191 

(101 8 

. I 

%‘$ou know it - you know the iii there are 

111 lmore fuzzy. You know. if I calied them up arid asked them to 

[ 12 ldo something. I would do it - they would do it for me. 

I131 You know, technically. on the chart in the 

I 14 1 White House they were above ma but, you know, that never 

I i 5 I really mattered much. 

1161 - Q 

r 17 I that vou had7 

Okay. And is that based on soma know-how 

iisi - A Yes sir. 

Q 

!izisay ‘You ned to do this. You n&d to do that.’ h’s not 

You’d call them up based on your knowledge. and 

121llike’ 

,22l& 

0th gbhg them orders. It’s like, “This is what 

s to ba dona to get the legislation passad.’ 

A We were collea 

:::I 18 hours a day, you generally %a 

uas. And. you know, when you work 

I 25 I and there’s no - there’s no power tnp. you know. 

Fna fnenda wrth$a$r;&, 

Page 19 

I 1 ~evarybody wuks to - for one - for one goal, and whatever 

I 2 I that goal rs for that day, to try and get it done. 

I31 Q WouM rt ba fair to say that you wually had more 

[ 4 I hands-on experience with the Hill than the da uty directors? 

f51 

[ 6 I Not Brophy - not Susan Brop 

A No they-the~~tobaon&eHilleva~day. 

She was the msrde. B 

~71 eah, there was - there was a ouse liaison. And tha way 

I~j~~~4;~~eg~~~ldexplainthewaymeoRceir 

I101 Q In the House, there is a deputy director for tha 

I 11 I House liaison. and then there were several special assistants 

fl21tothe Pnsklant. 

Theyrethe-thatistha-andthaaamaqntha 

i::&ate side - a deputy assistant to tha Prasident and 

[IS 1 several spa&l asslstants to the Prasidetnt. 

~:76~Thay’ra the onas that have line item ras 

Thay an? the day-b-day lobbyists on tha Hill 

[is tfhia commit@ or this lagislation. I wou &o 

naibilii fo; 

I 19 Ipoint until it a&ually cama to the floor. 

n’t gal to that 

t201 

1211 

2 y~y~ir~;~. PO .you (tnow Mm&a Lewinaky7 

I221 Q 

A 

Hov; did you’maat her? 

1231 I hind bar. 

I241 Q How did she get brougM to your attention? 

I251 A She was worktng in comsafxn&nca for - aa an 

OlCStarr Pag814toPagel9 
2241 

BSA Timothy Keating, 2125198 

___ uux(4 

Page 20 Page 23 

[I 1 intern for Leon Panetta’s office. And Jennifer Palmreri 

i2 1 brought her to my attention. 

It was Jen - there were several people that called 

/i 1 on her behalf mat -t-t; ?knew I had an opening in - 

r 

! corresoondence office. as a staff assistant. I i5i Q For 

A The __ ~__ . __ _. _ .__ __ _ ____ __________ 

iii had a young woman lea& and an o 

I 8 i And YOU have - the way the White t-I= 

ning became available. 

“‘p rson leaves. you have to 

ouse works is when that 

1101 hrough the administrative o gi 

recess paperwork, and it goes 

ce. 

i :: 1’ opening. 

So the administratiie ofice knew I had an 

Tracy - I can! think of her last name right now 

( I 3 I- who did beonzs; correspondence - 

[l41 

A Beckwith. Okay. -worked - used to work 

i:i;in the administratiie office so, you know, she knew I had 

il7lan openin 

[1Bl 8 I don’t know - is -it Beckwiih? 

1191 MS. WIRTH: Bobowic? 

1201 BY MR. WtSENBERG: 

[211 Q Bobowic? Beckwith? 

[221 A 

2 

You know, I can’t remember. 

1231 

IZ!Ijust- 

%$ot married. That’s part of the problem. And 

; :.there for a semester and gorng back to school. 

i;jthey - if they shine, you tend to try and help them. 

And, you know, those that are kdurg for a job. if 

[I; CJ 

[ 5 I common rt IS for someone to go dUectty 

Okay. Now. are you in a~~i$M&how 

I 6 1 into an agency ‘ob? 

[7! A 

Q 

/don’t do that. I’m sorry. 

f89ifrom an intemshio into a staff iob. correct? 

Okay. But it’s not like automat&ally you can go 

rioj A Oh.no,no. a~~.~ 

Q 

I:~~perforrnance? 

There has to be some indiwbon of superior 

1131 A Yes, And you have to have, you know, the 

[14]prscm that superwsed you on a daily basq actually take an 

1151 Interest - somebody that - you know, this IS -worth keepin 

[16i Q Okay. You’ve rnenbon Tracy n Panetta s o 

;;;;You@ve mentioned - 

9fi a. 

(191 Aa Jen. - Jennifer Palmieri - 

1201 

Aa YesS slr. 

I$ican remember? 

- and Ashley Raines. Anyone else you 

1231 A 

Q 

I think that’s pretty much it in Leon’s office. 

Okay. Other man that, what ktnd of reference 

:::;chedcs did you do? 

Page 21 

[II Q 

A 

That’s not an editorial statement about marriage? 

No, it’s not. I just - she changed her name, 

I:land I - you know, at that point, I just caked her Tracy. 

I 4 I I apologue. 

[51 - Q Oka 

161 A And r hey - you know, they contacted me and 

17 lsaid that they had an intern that was doing a great job; 

i 8 1 was I interEsted. 

19, 

.-a Let me iust ask you - I want to --- -.-- 

[lolsure about<omething: 

,- 

‘ust make 

1 Tllis Tracv actuallv wo . ~~ , - h ed for --- --- I 111 under Panetta? 

il21 A Yes. 

1131 .--. Q Okav. 

Cl41 A She was me staff oerson for Leon. and Monica was 

i 1 s j her intern. 

C1.5) Q Okay. So you’ve mentioned Tracy, and you’ve 

(17 1 mentioned Jennifer Palmieri. 

IlBi A Jennifer Palm&i. 

L191 Q How about Ashley Raines? 

I:01 A Ashley Raines eah. 

iii i her 

Q iCK 

input? 

Okay. What d Ashley Raines -what was 

ii:! her friend. 

A She was - she - as I remember I think she was 

And 

[ 25; In hearing what *? 

ou know I mean I was more interested 

racy had io say about her than I was 

Page 22 

1: ! anybody else. 

I-‘! 0 Because Monica had worked as an intern there. 

;:i 

A R ht. 

[5f 

0 

A 

A!?ri ht. And what did Tra tell you? 

All o B the reviews were go 47 

[ 6 1 at work smart. deserves a shot. 

- a good kid, always 

I211 Q 

A 

But apparently, it is typical in your office? 

Yeah. I mink It’s ty 

I:: 1 House. You have several types o 

ical within me White 

P. Interns. You have interns 

(24 lthat have finished college and are looking for a job. You 

1251 have interns that are, you know, just there for a summer or 

Page 24 

A 

I: i interview with her. 

That was it. I mean, I talked to her. I had 

t31 Q Okay. How did that go? 

I41 A I asked for some wrtbng samples. You know, jUst 

r51the standard Interview. It went very well. 

t61 Q The interview went well. You were pleased wtth her 

r7~writing samples. 

I81 A Mm-hmm. 

[91 0 You’ve got to say “Yes” or ‘No.‘ 

I101 A Oh, yes, sir. I’m sorry. 

Ill1 Q Because on the paper, we don’t know whether it’s 

[ 121 Wh-huh’ or “Un-un.” 

(131 A I apol ize. 

I141 Q That *“3, s ne. That’s all right. Did 

[151you were maklng this decision about hrring Ms. 

[ 16 1 correspondence, warn you about any potential problems 

tl7lwith her? 

[I81 A No, sir. 

Q 

i:z;what the phrase “clutch” means? 

Anybody tell you that she might be a - do you know 

[211 A I do. I’ve used it. 

1221 0 Okay. And what does it mean? 

1231 A 

[24 I 

? 

A clutch is somebody that is - is always trying to 

et into a photo. t In to be on with the prin~l, tryng 

f251 0 - you know, ge 7% s a old of someone and won? bt go. 

- 

Page 25 

[II Q Okay. Did anybody warn you that she was a dutch? 

[21 A No. 

Q 

I : i much brneAwtth;p President 

Did anybody s?q to you, “She’s been spending too 

151 

Q 

i7”imight be havin 

Anybody say to you that there’s spewlation she 

an affair wrth the President? 

IBI A a,. 

Q 

r:iidoesn’t like her? 

Dii anybody say to you that Evelyn Liiberman 

Ill1 A No. 

t121 0 If Evelyn Liiberrnan hadn’t lied her, what would 

I 13 lthat have meant to you? 

---~ ._. 

Page 20 to Page 25 OIC-stwr 
2242 

SSA Timothy Keating, 2125196 uux(W 

Page 26 

lij 

2 ~~~ydayyou know, as long as she clears them and 

izictears a drug test - 

Q Nobody had toM you about any problems with her 

i:jbackground check? 

(81 A No sir. 

Q All right. And that was presumably done when she 

Ii igot the intern position. correct? 

I91 A Presumably. 

1101 P Some kind of a back round - 

Ill1 A Sometypeofa 

Q 

~:~~intem. right? 

They don‘t just ~~~~~‘~~~ be done. 

A I’m - I’m not certain how they did it. I think - 

/ :: i I think they’ve actualI{ typ it up in recent years, but I’m 

[~6tnotcertainhow-att e mewhatmeprocesswas. 

Q All right. You don7 whether or not she had to go 

I:iithrough a rechecking of the background when she went to work 

rl9;for you? 

r201 A Shedid,but1was--‘dwas-iibeiieveitwasa 

[zllmore - 

1221 Q Thorough? 

I231 

6 

- intense more thorough 

Oka 

~::,‘counsel’s oflice. if t K 

And somebody would have come to you from the 

ere had been a problem? 

Page 29 

Ll; Q Oka 

IZi A But 7 - I’m not certain - 

131 Q Sure. 

A - of that process. 

/:jpaperworir done on that. 

I think you have to have 

[Cl 0 So basically. you did not hire her based on hearing 

~7 jabout any standout performance that she dii during the 

t B Ishutdown. 

A 

t:~~real good job 

No but-no. Shedida-shedida-shedida 

And that’s - I keep on -you know this is 

[I I tsucb a short time period. I keep on getbn 

But I think I offered her the job 4 

it confused. 

rst and I was 

I::{- I was actually pleased I did in December. She did a good 

III ljob during the shutdown. 

Q All right. You heard at some point - whether or 

r:%ot it was a basis for hiri 

[I~J- you did hear that she d 

[llll A Yes sir. ’ 

her, and apparently it wasnt 

a really good job - 

1191 

I201 

1211 

-d&in 

2 During 

the shutdown. 

&e - I observed she did a good job. 

.~.. Q Okav. You observed that. 

I221 A Yas,-sir. 

1231 Q 

A 

And in what sense did she do a good ‘ob? 

She was down in - in Mr. Panetta’s o t4i ce helping 

t::ianswer the phones, doing some general typing - office work. 

Page 27 

III A 

Q 

Yes, because that had hap ned in the ast. 

[21 All right. That’s not your jo .ge , to look at t R e 

I 31 background. 

I41 A No, sir. 

Q 

Iz;problem, tell you, “We’ve go a pmb 

Cs somebody else’s~ to look, and if there’s a 

[?I A lf there’s a mblem that would prevent her from 

I 8 J being em loyed they wou 

r91g0,” or wss goi to go: fi 

come to me and say, “She’s got to 

I101 

i :i ibe ex 

2 $$fe was a problem in the back round that could 

fained or worked out 

rl3lthat. R 

, I J? robab 7 never wou ?d haveknown 

ey woukf have one erectly o that person. 

[ 151 or in&&lQ? (14 Did the ’ e ‘d r SI en say anythrng about her, directly t 

1161 K Never. 

Q 

i::ifar as vou know? 

Did he have any input into her hiring by you, as 

1.-1 

[lRl * A No, sir. 

I201 Q Direct or indirect? 

I211 A No, sir. 

0 

i :i i as an intern. is that correct? 

You’ve mentioned that you heard she did good work 

izs1 A’ Yes. sir. 

125: 0 Old you hear anything in particular about her work 

Page 28 

: I ! - well. our indrcation is that she went to work for you 

;: ! somebme In November of 1995. 

A That’s where I get confused mysetf because I 

I: i believe that I made an offer for her to come to wok in 

t 5 i November. but that’s when the oovemmant shutdown occurred. 

iti 

I’! 2 !$?%I not quite - I don’t - I don’t quite 

I ? 1 remember whether her oaoerwork was ~focessed before the 

isrgovernment shutdown. ‘She may not have actually been an 

[ 1 o I employee of mine until after December. when the government 

: : : 1 was reinstated - came back. 

;:-“ Q AI1 right. When you made the decision to hire her, 

i 13 i do you thank that was before the shutdown? 

1141 A Yes. 

(151 

2 Y”,“‘i knowit was because - when - you only had 

i :tito have to essential personnel on. interns could come in 

[island it was essenbal personnel only. And I - she woutdn’i 

i 19 J have been essential personnel for me, but if she was an 

: 1 o I intern, she coukt have still worked.. 

Q What if she was nertheR Could she have gotten in 

t:: ion some kind of special pass? If she wasn’t an intern yet 

[ z 3 1 and hadn’t gone to work for you? 

I241 A If she wasn’t an intern - she coukl have been a 

rzslvolunteer, sure. 

Page 30 

[I 1 You know, it was a unusual time. not too many people around, 

( 2 1 so I do remember it well. 

(31 0 You saw her there a.lot keeping long hours? 

i4l A She- es. Yes 

Q All righ! Did 

r 

ou see her in the presence of the 

IziPresident at an time during he shutdown? 

I71 A +eah the President came into Leon’s office. 

Q And so did you ever see her and the President alone 

Itlduring the shutdown? 

A Never alone. I tend to believe that’s the first 

i :y) time he ever met her, too, was during that - it was during 

r12lthat government shutdown. 

I131 Q 

A 

All right. Just a guess on your part or - 

I believe I was in the room when - when, you know, 

I::! he introduced himsetf. 

1161 Q To Ms. Lewinsk ? 

A Yeah and to - t K ere was another - I think 

I:i;there was another -‘there may have been another kid in the 

f391room. too. 

Q 

I:!; interaction with Ms. Lewinsk 

Was there anything about the President’s 

- t?t m$~s~rou thin 4

dunng the shutdown that struck 

1221~0~ as ? 

1231 

Q All’right. You know sometimes something will 

i::;happen, it doesn’t seem important at the time, and then two 

I; ; g$;;$ giy$;t ,“,‘~~1h”,““,,~~~~~~~~~~ 

Page 31 

t3lmore importance. 

Are there any events lie that with respect 

I : i to Ms. Lewinsk 3 

I61 A !lo sir. 

171 Q In your mind. 

t81 A 

Q 

In my mind, no, sir. 

Qkay. Did he seem to be chatting more with Ms. 

t :iiLewinsky pn $h;;y others during the shutdown? 

1111 

[I21 Q ok&y. Do you know anything about whether or not 

[ 13jMs. Lewinsky delivered pizza to the President during 

(14 lthe shutdown? 

A Wegotpizza-wegotpizzafrom-itwas 

~&Htkxi’s even. I remember that. She ma have taken pizza 

I 17 tdown to Betty and Nan 

(181 Q You don ? 

and the Preside rx I’m not oertain. . 

know for sure? 

(191 A 

Q 

I’m not certain. no. .t’rn sorry. 

!:yiithat it’s likely lt mig t have happened? 

Do {ou think you might hyve heard that, or just 

A I thank that - they weren’t oorni 

~:&ie - I think somebody did bring it down, and ?! 

up ao I think 

124 ~wouid have been Monrce. 

pro&My 

t251 Q You don’t have a pafticular mcolledon of . 

_____ _-.. _-_ 

OlCStarr Page 26 to Page 3f 
2243 

asA 

Page 32 

Timothy Keating, 2125198 

Page 35 

: I : that, though? .^. A No! sir. I do remember getting pizza. though. You 

iiican tell from the sue of me. 

0 

i: i the shutdown. 

You said you witnessed that she did ood work in 

Did 

:i;did durino the shut dy 

ou hear anything bad about an 

own? 

y4- hmg she 

.-.- 

.‘j -A No, sir. 

iB: Q 

13 jinappropriate? 

All right. Nobody told you that her behavior was 

..? &Ad1 A No, sir. 

Q And you didn’t see my inappropriate behavior by her 

ii:iduring the shutdown? 

i13: A No, sir. 

Q You didn’t hear any scuttlebutt or rumor about her 

i i:i beino a dutch dunno the shutdown. 

i:6; - A No. - 

0 

~i~~relationshio with the President dunno the shutdown. 

Didn’t hear anything about her having a 

.~~, 

1191 A No, sir. 

Q Okay. What, if any, effect did Walter Kaye have on 

I: y i getting her the ‘ob in your shop? 

j221 A kone. 

1231 Q All right. Tell us how she performed when she went 

(24lto work for you. _ 

!251 A Unfortunately, she performed like an intern. rather 

Page 33 

;: 1 than a staff person. 

i2: Q 

A 

And what do you mean by that? 

Interns are generally not as responsible. She - 

i : ; she didn’t - she didn’t live up to my expectabons as a 

:s;staff person. 

16: Q Okay. Why not? 

r-. 

, 1 A She was out of the office a lot She was flighty. 

; ; ; The work ~asn&~~erng done. 

:1s: A 

Q 

She didn’t last long. 

All right. You told me three things: She was out 

ii, jof the office a lot: she was flighty; and the job wasn’t 

! i 3 : getting done. 

A 

ii f j affect the one. 

I think it’s - but I think the -two reasons 

The ‘ob isn’t getting done because of out of 

[:s:the office a lot and d I hty. 

,.__ 

,- ~ 0 ;I?: A 

Fine. %hat do you mean br IHighty”? 

Oh, just -just more interes ed rn getting 

: : 5: mto photo ops than doing her job. More interested in 

[ 2 c : gettrng into an event than doing her job. You know, more 

1 I:: ; Interested in walking around to see who she could see than 

::I :doing her job. You now, she - she didn’t take it seriously. 

7-I:. _--. Q What particular job was she hired for? 

;-_i: A For correspondence. Staff assistant in 

[z 5 -correspondence. 

-___ 

Page 34 

. 

.-. Q Oka And what was she supposed to do? 

._. A Wha 1 they do is - several things. One is, 

i 5 -they write letters. The letters that the 

: 4 .are the, you know, “Happy Birthday, 8 

generally write 

: 5 .of letters. 

ongressman X” type 

: -. mail from the 

[ 14 : actually re 

i ; 5 : be to task 9 

uired a substantive response, their job would 

[ : i 1 wherever. 

to OMB, to Treasury, to, you know. Labor, 

117: Q Oka 

115: A And r hen when they’d get the response back, you 

I 1 B: know. a decision would be made somewhere along the line 

~2: :whether that letter should be answered by the President, or 

~2: :whether the letter should be answered by a secreta or 

i 2: : whether the answer should be by some&d y;d h the &ite House 

123; other than the President. And their job wou be to make 

;;;;sure that thabgpt done. 

An If the letter was from the President, they 

! 1 lwoukf 

i2 ~check a 

et it baa from the agency, format it, check it for - 

for, you know, grammatical errors. And then they 

[ 3 1 would put d on - the President has a s 

I I 1 called azure, and they would put it on t!zcr 

‘al paper. its 

azure and then 

[s!submit it for sgnature. 

[61 Q 

A 

Who did she work directly for? 

/ii in the office. Jocelyn Jolley was - was in the office as 

She worked directly for me. There was other people 

jslwell. She had worked for me as a staff assistant on’ the 

[I o I House side. 

1111 Q Who? 

j121 A Jocelyn Jolley. 

Q 

I::&enrisof? 

okay. Jocelyn Jolley wasn’t her immediate 

1151 A Shewas-tosa 

r 

-technically, yes. But there 

I 16 Iwas - yes. 1’11 - tll live with ma 

(171 Q How manI people were in that section -the 

I 18 Icorrespondence seqon 

1191 

(201 

t gFzt always - there’s two staff people. 

j211 A And%en ou know interns. 

1221 Q M right. ‘Z!o she and Ms. Jolley were the two? 

j231 A Yes. 

I241 Q Al right. Now, why do you say Ms. Jolley was 

rzsttechnicalty her -nor? 

Page 36 

A Well as I said this was kind of loose in the 

I:l’sense of operation.’ Everybody worked to get ever&n 

r3jdone. I was a supervisor, in the sense of - you know, i? 

I 4 J MOniCa wanted a day off, she wouldn’t go to Jocelyn. she 

[ 5 1 woukl go to ma. 

(61 Q Oka. 

171 A You 1 now, so - you know. Jocelyn on paper, 

18 ~could technicallv claim that she was the director of 

j 9 j correspondend, but it’s more of a loose organization 

rlolthan that. 

[Ill Q 

A 

Who was Monk+ predecessor? 

i::iChris Walker? 

R&t before Monrca. Mel+ Bates was,- or was tt 

kssa - no, rt was Chns Walker, and right 

I I 4 I - but he wasn’t there very Ion It was Monica - or - 

1151 Q Melissa Bates. 9 

1161 

1171 

$ z$ Banks 

ii8i A Melissa Banks. 

i19i 

i201 2 before Jocelyn it was LeAnn Inadomi. Jocelyn 

I 211 had not been in that job all that Ion’ 

[221 Q Okay. Did Jocelvn 4 ave anv effect on the decision 

either. 

jr3jto hire Monica Lewrnsky? _ 

12r1 A I Let her - I let her interview her, but - 

I251 Q okay. 

Page 37 

111 

[ 2 1 and 

-you know, no, she - I let her interview her. 

r3lwasr% doi? Phe hsing or the firing. 

ot her o inron. but she wasn t going to be the - she 

8 

I:;because Monica was hrr 

Okay. DOT recall Joce$n getting mad at all 

kmd of witho her say-so at all? 

161 A We had a conversation about it. 

f%% I had a conversation. I’m not certain if I 

~$.&nember an e-ma& but I know I had a conwrsation with her 

- ____ _. .___ 

Page 32 to Page 37 OICStarr 
2244 

Timothy Keating, 2125198 

-~ 

Page 38 

: : : about it. 

._. Q But you think you would have ubmately let her 

il i Interview Ms. Lewinsky? 

A 

i: j interview her. 

I did let her interview. i’m - I’m sure I let her 

i . -. Q WouM this have been after - .-1 

:_; 

A 

Q 

Or talk to her, or whatever you want to call it. 

If ou recall, would this have been before or after 

f zishe compiained t z at R . was kind of a fait accomplis - 

: I : 1 Ms. Lewmsky being hired? 

7.. 1 .--3 A I don’t uite remember. 

.._I Q Okay. 35 o you were shady having problems with 

!I;jJocelyn Jolley when you hrred Monica Lewinsky? 

;141 A Yeah, she was a reat staff ass&ant. but she just 

-:s;diin’t lie UD to the role of the de 

iii jthe corms ’ 

%I. II that was needed for 

ndence job. 

.._. 

_- i F? You mean staff assistant on the Hill? 

..;. .--I A On the House - no, sir, on the House side of the 

: : 9! legislative liaison shop. 

---1 Q Oh correct_ Because that’s what she had done 

‘~?(before she went oier to corresoondence. ;-,; 

.--1 A Yes. 

1-31 Q All ht. She had been in legistathe affairs - 

:2r:Jocelyn Jolley - be %re she got .the correspondence - 

I2Si A Yes. sir. 

- 

Page 41 

,. 

.-. A So that‘s a -that’s a big problem. 

!,: 

(3: 

:rz 

!Sj 

i:; at’s when this whok 

[6?-~~o~~ingjust~~toa~ad. I-thewayI 

[g jpelieve rt happened. you know - if I knew this was 

I:$z” 

rtant. I would have paid closer attention at the time, 

I bebeve what happened was Jodie Torkelson, who was the 

I 12 I head of the office of administration, she’s kind of the chief 

I 13 I administmwe OffiCW of the White House. 

rlclthatjob, she was at OMB. 

Before she had 

i:z&aid ou know. “What do we o nnth this? And then Jodii 

r171went o E 

’ ’ 

And I think what hapgeM was OMB went to Jodii and 

118lYou know. %is oftice is’not workinb.” 

and then you know that’s how I got into it. 

i:ilwith OMB mom or less was t 

Q All right. Are ousaying~~in~nt 

r; e cause of Jocelyn Jolley and 

r211Mohca Lewinsk being let go? 

A V&at I’m saying is that’s - that’s the straw that 

$$rdca the camel’s back. 

Page 39 

::sfalking about? - ’ “6 A Yes, sir. I - she was there such a short period 

i f’.of time, so I don’t know how - you know, from the git-go 

:::‘versus - versus. I mean - 

‘. FA‘ --. $2 Well, apparently she was gone by about 

“‘-April gth’ Tht?April right. Yeah it was Easter. ._. 

.--. ._T. Q And ‘she would h&e started in December, so we’re 

~~~!talking about five months. 

.-. _. A So it was a short period of time. She was just not 

- i .--. - not doing it. 

__ 

Page 40 

. Q Okay. 

A So I’m not certain where whether it was from 

1 .day one, or whether it was from day We. 

,:,know that._ _ 

I just don’t 

.i Q There woukf be some instances where she would not 

‘1 be at am? desykehen you needed her. 

._ 

0 Now did you have absences problems with 

z Ms. Lewinsky? Wai she absent in the sense that she‘d be 

: i I :gone for several days, or anythirig like that? 

. . 

,-_ A Not - not days absent. Absena in the sense of 

: L: : not betng at her desk. 

..-_. 

,--. Q Oka 

x 

Any particular lack or performances by her? 

: :4 .Let’s talk about pa rculan. You’re saying her flightiness 

I: 5 : and her wanting to be gone-all the time contributed to a lack 

::e:of performance. Do ou remember an particular th s? 

,.-. 

I Is whole thin 

A Well. r he job wasn’t ge lt mg done. *howthis 

came to a head. I 

:: 9:ktters tha P had not been task d 

ot a huge supp 

‘x 

frun QMB of 

that were mont s old. 

izz; And. you know, aft of a sudden, they ‘ust dumped 

r::;ahu esup iyof-ahugesupplyofletterson 

iji~~~~~~hedateson~~~e~-~eo~~~n 

e need a res nse ASAP on tl-+ ?oIowing k&rsn 

[ 2 4 : the letter - were months old. 

125; Q Okay. 

Q Okay. 

A There - you know, that’s - that’s - that’s the 

Page 42 

11 ~event that - 

121 Q Asfaras ou werecbncerned. 

A Yes sir. x at’s the event that bro 

i : i- you know. how bfrd this shop really was. and tha “9 they 

ht everything 

[ s I really weren’t getting the job done. 

Q 

;;;Jodie’s first? 

Okay. And this was brought to your attention, dr 

;;;firrt 

A lt was - i be&eve it was brought to Jodie’s 

/lOI 0 

1111 

1121 

$ 

Okay. And did Jodie then tell you about it? 

Ilb&tyve Jcdie told Evelyn. 

1131 A And 1 

Il4! 0 

hat’s why I got into it. 

1151 A 

Ms”ht. And then Evelyn came to you? 

Ylf: Q 

I171 

Okay. And what did Evelyn say to you? 

A She wanted an explanation. I 

rlei Q Ofwhat? 

A 

i:iiknow. six months late. You know what’s the problem? Yoi~ 

Of, you know why letters were being tasked you 

I 2 I 1 know. there’s a problem over in t6at office. 

(2: 1 pings .aren’t gettin 

You know, 

done. You know, there was mistakes 

r23m - mrstakor n k 8 

Q 

ers that hadn’t been caught. 

1241 Evetyn knew about other things, too, when she came 

[ 2 51 to you complain to you? 

Page 43 

A I believe - t believe. i mean Is - it‘s hard. 

iii I mean, we Wed at the shop really hard ai that time and 

[31you knoy, mere was a real roblem there. Jocelyn was -‘was 

rslshe was, ou now, In iate. out early. And urte hnkly, 

~~~~~~U~~r~O~. ~~nshed~sh~ shewasher for a long time because she 

[7jheatth probkms. 

some 

Q That’s Jocetvn Jo&v? 

_ _____~_ 

OlCStarr Page38toPage43 
2245 

- _______ 

Timothy Keating, Z25l98 xvultt --. -- ~ _-______ -- - 

Page 44 

(2 i:‘us 1 Evelyn ever hung you remember about the discussion when teberman finally came to ou. What’s she mad about? 

A Well there was - tiere were several discussions. 

i:iyou know, in that OMB wasn’t the on 

I 5 1 was a problem - OMB just happe nect? 

problem. I mean, there 

(6 1 that she could point to. 

to be the - the thing 

171 0 Okay. 

A And, you know, the discussion was - I mean, the 

Ii ; discussion real1 was “Let’s get rid of them both.” 

I101 Q Akay.* 

(111 A “The ‘ob isn’t being done, you know. What’s your 

[ 12 1 opnron?” “Get rid o I them both.” 

L131 0 Okay. Who said, What’s ur opinion”? 

[I,1 A Well, I mean., that was - I &k it may have been 

- I mean I’m putting words m her mouth. tt may have been 

! :ziEvelvn ai to. YOU know - YOU know, ‘What do we think herer 

Page 48 

b NBERG: 

izsi 

Thank you. 

(The witness was excused at 12:45 p.m. and recalled 

;25]at 3:33 p.m.) 

Page 46 

::: *.. 

‘-,: MR. WtSENBERG: 

:<iwitness. Mr. Keatin 

Let the record reftect that the 

!4! Madame + 

has reentered the Grand Jury room. 

ore r-son do we have a quorum? 

:5: DEPUTY FOF8?PER$ON: Yes we do. 

MR. WlSENBERG: 

if i in the Grand Ju room? 

Are there any unauthorized persons 

I?: DEPt%Y FOREPERSON: No, there are not. 

i9: Mr. Keating, I need to remind you that you’re 

I : a 1 under oath. 

“1’ /- ‘ THE WITNESS: Yes, ma’am. 

1.7, I*- * BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q 

j i :iTimothv Keatina - who was testifying here earlier today? 

Okay. Are you the same Tan Keating who was - 

il5j _ A Yes. sir. 

- _ 

0 I think we were talking about - and I think we 

i if i told you earlier you could come back at 3 o’clock. and you’ve 

118 gracrousl 

: ~slyou by 3: 3 

consented to do so. And told you that we’d get to 

0. 

I201 A 

and we’re pretty close. 

I211 Q 

Yes, sir. Thank you. 

i2z jlong wait. 

All riaht. Once aqain, we awfeciate your . . 

Let me ask you - we were right at the point we 

I::iwere talking about your dissatisfaction wtth the performance 

[zslof Monica Lewinsky. and I think you said you had more 

Page 47 

: : -than one discussion with Evelyn Lieberman about this; is 

::-that correct? 

i3i A Yes, sir. 

Q And if I remember correctly, you testified that 

i:&ere was a ~mplaint by the Office of Management and Budget 

f 6 @out some correspondence. and that ou believe that made 

j7~1k wa 

18 ~Jodii ur 

up through somehow to Jodia ? orkelson and from 

orkelson to Evelyn Lieberman; is that comet? 

I91 A 

Q 

Yes, sir. That’s right. 

All right. And then Evelyn Lieberman came to visit 

I:yiyou; is that correct? 

1121 A I went to visit her. but - 

Q Okay. How dii that happen? What occasioned your 

i::&ii to Evelyn Liibennan? 

A lwas-s~to~~to~~~~ror~rs~ 

~:~~assistant. I can’t remember how it hap ned. All I remember 

t171is that we ended up having a conversa I?e ion about it. 

Q Okay. She or her staff assistants told you to aims 

:::&a Evelyn Lieberman? 

I201 A Yes. Yes. 

Q 

I:: &me; is that correct. 

Okat And she was deputy chief of staff by this 

1231 A 

Q 

Yes, she was. 

okay. Tell us about that conversation or about any 

i::ioUter conversations. I think you mentioned over a period of 

Page 48 

I 1 I a couple of days. 

I21 A Right. And it’s - it kind of gets a We 

t3lconfused in my mend as to - 

t( ~meeting, it was decided that x 

ou know, the first - the first 

wasn’t onty Monrca that was a 

I 5 I problem -;hat theacomspondence unrt was a problem. 

I61 

I71 A And r he decision had been made or agreed to that 

1 B Ishould just get rid of the problem. 

I91 

(101 i 

2 

:%&her person deserved to be terminated. 

1111 

I :;; Pas 

x 

%%o work it out with Patsy and Bob - 

Thomasson and Bob Nash - and ou know set if we can 

l I I 1 put t em someplace else, give them ano 3

[ 1 s 1 another shot. 

er try, g&e them 

1161 

1171 i 6% I did. I talked to Patsy and Bob Then I 

~1s~ had a - probably another follow-up conversation withPatsy. 

So a lot of my talking back and forth with Evelyn 

I:iiwas. you know, “Have ou done anything&eV “Are you doing 

r2llanythtng?” You know, %vh at‘s the status. 

(22 r of conversations. 

It was that type 

Q 

i::jto your meetin 

Oka 

tl! 

Tell us es best as you can recall - you go 

WI 

i251 

A q,,, SEpn ~*~ffnan. 

we 

Page 49 

Q At this point in time you haven’t even haard about 

t:iths incident with office of Management and Budget. 

I31 A 

Q 

No, sir, I had. 

I41 

/! 

You had heard. Somehow word had gotten to you. 

I51 Qh. yeah. That‘s - that’s - 

[61 

I’1 i $2’1 oh I’m getting confused Yeah I can’t 

rs lremember the - I think what happened was -1 knew about it 

l sgoing into it. I knew that there was a problem. 

I don’t know how I knew. mether rt was you know 

1: ! 1- whathar it was a ~nve~ation on the phone - I khew that 

[ 12 1 there was a problem, and I knew the problams was involving 

I 131correspondence. 

I141 Q 

ilSi 

Going into the meeting? 

A Yes. sir. 

Q When you say the conversation on the phone, 

~:~~vou mean the conversation with either Ms. Liaberman or 

iisiher aide - 

i191 

f201 .f, 1 

“0 yes* sk. 

A 

---rsk;w you to come see Ms. Lieberman? 

ELII __. . _- 

1221 ti Okay. And I guess the reason I asked it that way 

[23]’ assuming that you might have not known oi 

[24Jflled 

“9 

-aMatyousaldthltinformationa~~~~ths 

~z,+ziden went from Jodie to Evetyn Lieberman. 

Page 44 to Page 49 
2246 

Timothy Keating, 2/25/98 

-~-__ 

Page 50 

1:; A Correct. 

Q And then you’re talking to Evelyn Liiberman 

iG;So I didn’t know if you knew about it before you went into 

[4lthe meetin 

w No - well I knew about it in the sense that 

:ii- you know, I know that before I went into that room, 

[ 7 1 I knew there was a 

P 

roblem. 

[ B 1 correspondence 

and I knew it was in my 

o ca. 

Q Okay. Now tell us as best you can remember the 

[ :iiconversation you had with Evelyn Liiberman when you were 

t 111 caked into visrt with her. 

A As I said before if I’d known it was important, 

I ::; I would have paid closer attention. It’s hard for me to 

~14)remember what you know, fully went on, with the exception - 

(151 Q 

A 

As best you can remember. 

Yeah. I mean, with the exception of, you 

I::iknow Wow bad is this situation?” You know “The 

1 I8 1 President would have a fit if he saw, you know, this stuff.” 

1191 Q Meaning what? 

A The letters that were backlogged coming out of my 

i :f 1 office that memben of Congress were not getting responded to 

I 22 1 in a timely fashion. 

I231 And. vou know. there were other orobfems. 

i24jand. you know&e talked 

[ 2 s I the problems were within 

Page 51 

i:ib’ All right. In what way? 

I41 A Her not doing her ‘ob, being around - you know, 

I 51 how could she be doing her ‘ob 

[ 6 1 in the West Wing and tryin 

And, 

r 

ou know, e’ 

il she was, you know, floating 

o get into photo ops. 

vefyn was - she was like the 

iiistrict mother of he West Wrng. She knew who came in, she 

[ 91 knew who went out. 

I101 She - you know, she - she was not afraid of 

1 I11 anyone. She would, tell pe.ple this and that, you know. You 

: :z 1 know, Syet i;rour acket. 

1131 - s f! e was very good. She was a hands-on 

: : 4 ! person. Well, you know, if ou hang around, not doing 

: I 5 1 anythmg. Evelyn was sure r o pick it up. And she sure did. 

1161 Q All right. And you had these conversations with 

: : 7 1 Evelyn even before - 

[!9] A I had conversations with Monica about that before 

!:91all this - 

::3; 0 About hanging around the West Wing? 

;:?I A About hanging around the West Wrng. about the 

I :: I path she used to take to go to, you know, the Old Executive 

; : 3 1 Office Building. 

See part of the 

ii l: the East Wing: and the a uf 

roblem is that her office was in 

o pen - which is a signature 

Page 52 

: -devrce used for the Presidents signature on letters that 

: 3 * burldtng rndrcatmg I s rn the 

: : : he s not florng to srpn rrsonall&- is over here in the old 

Id Execuhve office 

: 4 : Building. It’s in a separate - separate building. 

:5. 

: 6 .throu 

But to get from here to there, you have to go 

:-!West %r 

h the executive residence, you have to go into the 

mg. and the fastest route IS to cut across the west 

! c : lobby and down the starrs and over. 

.i‘ You know, Monica would always take this bi 

: i : j around and go past the Oval Office, go past Evelyn’s o % 

swing 

: : : ; go past Leon’s office, seeing what was oing on. 

ice. 

. . . . 

..-. Q Let me show you sometl?ing. 

;:3; 

;i:;thrsTK-1. 

A Yes, sir, hapE{to. 

Q I have an ex I rt here. I’m going to call 

(l&j A Yes, sir. - 

i:‘] 0 

rieiWestWing. 

And this purports to be a floor plan of the 

!I91 A Mm-hmm. 

i201 0 Of the Oval Office level of the West Wing. 

[211 A Yes, sir. 

;:I] Q And you can see there is some - in addition to the 

[ 2 3 I floor plan there’s some writing on there. Do you see that? 

(241 A Yes, sir. 

I251 0 Okay. To the best that you can - now, she’s over 

Page 53 

[ 1 I- Monica is over in the East Wrng? 

[2! A 

Q 

She’s way Over here (indicatin 

Oka B 

). 

[3! 

& 

And s she on this leve , or a level higher? 

I41 4 MO. s this kvel. 

ha 

IS1 

[Cl i tt!t%hen you - actually when you come across 

17 I- in the executive mansion._ you coma iii the first floor, 

[ 8 Iwhich is a diplomatic recemng room and the library, a few 

[ 9) other rooms. And then you come out of the court - a covered 

I lo 1 wur& and then you across over another doorway to go 

f 111 o~tsrde. You actually have to go outside. 

But it’s covered. tt’s - the Rose Garden 

I::ito the left which is outside of the Oval Office. The 

III 1 Rose Garden is here. Then there’s a brick - not a brick 

r1s)but a stone patio that’s covered that 

rlslwalk alona. and then vou enter two dy 

ou walk up, and you 

oars. and right here is 

i ;; j the press%om rndrcatmg). 

I181 b ‘.‘. 

1191 2 Th%wer press office. And you come up and then 

r201you - as you coma up, tire’s a police officer stationed 

~;;;g;~p;&ndiattng). 

All nght. Is that where it says “Desk No. 1” on 

A k’s - it’s - I can’t quite tell because I don’t 

~::~know what this is. but that’s probably right, because ft’s 

Page 54 

11 ].stuck in the - in the comer. 

[Zl Q Okay., What I’d like you to do - 

I31 

[41 Aa yqsv - IS to s’r. the extent that you can do it on this map,’ 

rslbeca~se this is on a map ofthe West Wrng - 

I61 

Aa 

‘K 

I71 Rig - on t. the level of the Oval Office. 

191 A Yes, sir. 

191 Q Show us with this red pen, this Sharpie - 

I101 

[Ill Aa Yes 7 where s’r. Monica Lewinsky’s route was that you 

I 12 Iwere just descnbrng when she would go to 

113rs1aned. to the extent that you were saying s 3, 

et the autopen 

went by 

i 14 j Egefyn’s office - 

1151 A Right. You - 

Q You know, show us how this route woufd be, to 

::76iyour knowledge. 

[la1 A Well, it’s the wrong way to go. 

I191 Q Which is the wa 

(201 A Correct. Well. a r fint. 

she went. 

[zllup at the end, hopefull . 

But she wou Ib 

I think she straightened 

coma in. You walk past the cabinet 

IZ;room. mere’s - well you coma up the - there’s a ramp as 

~74 I I said, that leads - thh is the entrance to the lower press 

12s1office (mdrcating). You coma in a door here, you come up 

Page 55 

I 1 I the ramp. The police station - guard station is there. You 

[ 2 1 walk into a doorway. 

There’s a - there’s a halfway but it’s a broad 

I:; halhvey because the cabinet room is here. And then instead 

rslof makmg - instead of going to the left out. she would 

tslwalk around this way past where, you know, the entrance to 

[ 7 1 Nancy Hemreich’s and Betty Cume’s office. 

[El 

191 g %ht around. Now, these are all dosed doors. 

rioj 

;::;you know. 

AQ Xk3 a police officer stationed out here, 

I131 C! You’re at 11 o’clock of the Oval office? 

t14i 

I151 

tl6laS YOU 

t171w over 

A Yes. sir. 

Q Okay. And you’d tome 

come around, George’s offce is 

here. There’s a recbing room 

rlclistaff people. 

1191 Q oka. 

1201 A 

I2llmceMna - 

And ken the out @or - l,eon’s - Leon Panatta’s 

1221 

1231 

- tJ Right. 

- a hem whare. you know, Jennifer Palmierf and a 

iii jfew others were. _ 

-.- . . 

1251 And then she would walk this way, past the 

OKStarr Page 50 to Page 55 

-~ 
2247 

By 

-- 

Timothy Keating. 2125198 

_-- 

Page 56 

: -Vc.e Presidents office this way. And then there’s a haltway 

- -down that comes k&ally right out of this office. It 

.:-goes down - 

‘4. .:. 

AQ ~~~~e~~l~~~~~~~d. 

r22:right by the Oval 

woukt say that’s the route she would take, 

. and that s an incorrect route. or 

[zr:not the quickest route. 

[:I: A Welt, the - 1 mean, if you look, here‘s the - 

Page 59 

. . LA. A Yes. 

._. Q 

i 5 j going to continue to go 

I mean, presumably, if she had told youA “No. I’m 

ht by the Oval Office here - 

iP1 A She wou V 

Q 

have had a problem. 

Yes. Okay. How man times did Eve n Lieberman 

; z jdiscuss thrs issue with pu, - Monica ~an~~~~~~ 

(7 IWest Wing - which I ta e rt merges with 

(8! A Yeah. 

191 Q Okay. How many times did she discuss this 

[ 1 o nwith you pqor to the incidents that led to the removal 

r111of Ms. Le”?” ? 

1121 

Q 

%robab3; a couple times. 

;::;h%. Lewinskv? 

Okay. ow many times did you discuss thit with 

rlsi A - Probabty a wu k times. 

1161 Q All right. Did h! s. Libennan complain that she had 

t171seen Ms. Lewinsky several times take thus route, or in the 

[22 jthe probtem?- 

;;:;wouM ~~ know, it was i that was Evelyn’s way. She 

that with anyone. You know I mean, if she 

[ 2 5 I saw somebody not doing their job - especiaby , you know, a 

Page 67 Page 60 

: I. here’s the direct route. ._: Q Okay. Wrththis bluepenGf Aa F-- show us what she should have done. Put a line 

: i ‘or arrow where she should have aone. instead cf where vou’ve 

:;..done with the red pen. 

_ 

._. 1 ii- .-. 

$ ~lttyt’s this route (indicating). 

,Z” .-. A 

::I: Q 

Should I 40 from here? 

[ 2 : : deviated from. 

No. just t e -just where she shoukl have 

I::: 

[11’ 

; C)g;; $Viiness complies.) Right 

II right All nghtii. So ~rn~~~~. 

: : 4 -to hold it up for the grand jurors. You can come over here 

: I 3 .- no, never mind. 

I:<. A I’ll be happ to. 

il‘ Q No, stayw b ereyouare. 

i:r- A 

[:I-. 0 

Are you sure? 

Stay where you are. 

:2:- A Okay. sir. 

I-. 0 I don’t want to hurt our back any more. We’ve 

)Z.me route in red. and we’ve mark Erwin blue pen where the 

: z;_ deviation should have been (i~~t~ng). 

iI; Okay. Thrs red route takes you ri ht b the 

[:: Oval Office, the offices of Stephanopoulos. We oKices 

! got 

. 

Page 56 

.- ‘: Of pane~a~~~~~~~~k the scenic route. 

‘2 __ 

Q All right Now as I understand it Ms. Lieberman 

:r. had complauted to you previous to this incident L thts what 

: i we’ll wll the OMB incidents - about Monica hanging around 

._ 

- the West Wrn or the Oval Office too much? 

;- 

. . A f% R was always the West Wing. And a bt of it 

! :.was this route that was the roblem. 

1:: Q And you ha cfr 

[ :: -about this? 

actualty spoken to Ms. Lewinsky 

,.-. :A-. A Yes. sir. I had. 

[:5 0 

i;: about it? 

What would she say when you would tell her 

1:: i if m 

A Tve not talked to Evelyn Liiberman. I don’t know 

r 

attorney has talked to - I mean, I think he’s talked 

;;;;to o her atttmegin this - 

you know whether or not he’s been debriefed 

[ 16 I about anything Evelyn Liiberman has said about this case? 

I171 A Not tom knowledge. 

0 

1: “, 1 removed- first of a 

Firing? 

Okax. Was Monica Lewins8 fired or 

Removal? 

how would you chara erue 

I z o 1 it: 

A 

i fi i She CtNlnY sta 

She was - she wanted to stay in the White House. 

in the White House. 

i z 3 ?dassify that as xIf you want to nng, that% fine. But she was ut 

I 24 I into another position. She wasn‘t thrown out. B he 

I 2 5 I deserved to - you know, in my opinion, she deserved 

Page 61 

I 11 to have another chance. 

Q 

i; i Woo@ it be fair to call it a removal? 

That’s why I was asking you to characterize it. 

141 A She was removed. Yes, sir. 

151 Q Okay. And she would have wanted to stay. 

161 A She did want to stay. 

I71 Q She dkl want to stay. 

--.. _~_ ---- 

Page 66 to Page 61 
2248 

-- 

Page 62 

Timothv Keating, 2/25198 awr(lll 

Page 65 

::lallane 

V-,1 

! ;j back - 

Q Did you say that the straw that broke the camel’s 

for you, at least - with Ms. Lewinsky was the 

5 4 1OMB rnadent? isi A No, sir. 

;76; 

Q The final straw? 

A 

[8]was the - 

The final straw with the office of correspondence 

I91 

&eahQrtyQ; letters. 

A When I ot - I got pulled down. I had to explain 

f:iiit_ I had a new boss w o’s sayin 

r12lthe job a month, and I have, you & 

to me, you know “I’m in 

now. 

1:3lwe’re not doing ourjob here. 

peo le dairriing that 

You know, =f% it: 

Cl Okay. As far as you’re concerned, was that the 

i::ifinal straw that caused to you want to remove Ms. Lewinsky 

iisland &.. JOlkv? 

i17j 

/:iiindewndent of an 

izoj 

Aa _ %Za,kNow was that a decision you reached 

hrng Evelyn Lieberman said o you? 

A 

0 

It was --ii was joint 

Okay. Let me ask you this: At some point in time, 

f$:l)did Evetyn Lieberman say - let’s talk about Monica first. 

1231Didshe~a~,“Getridofhe~?, 

I don’t know f 1 was ever singed out her. I 

I::;think it was get rid of “them.” 

Page 63 

Q All ri 

I: {talked to her more t t! 

ht. And at what point - you said you 

an once during a period - I think 

: .-. 3 I more ~~ than once dunno a oeriod of a cou~k of davs - 

[41 

:51 

; Yes sTr. r 

- aher this OMB incident occurred; is 

f F. 1 that correct? 

i;j- -- ~~ -A R’ ht. Right. 

Q 

! z i ordered you 

O?ay. At some point in time. Evelyn Lieberman 

- I want to know how it happened. At some point 

; i o 1 in time, she said, “Get rid of them”? 

::11 A Ri ht. We were talking and. you know the 

1121 roblemintheo f# ce - pu know, after thrs - the OMB 

: : 3 1 P hrng, I went over and c ecked that to see, you know, what 

: : 4 I the volume of corresoondence was. versus what the output 

: I 5 : had to stop. 

_- 

Page 64 

So when we went in to talk to 

6 ._-/ --. Monica was - 

: : 3. transitron between a sta f? 

ou know, she never made the 

person - an intern and a staff 

;;4;pe 

rson. you know. That’s fine, too, but that’s not something 

: : 5 1 hat should prevent her from losing her job. 

[:6: Q At some,pont in brne. drd Evelyn Lieberman say, 

; :: : “Get rid of;hes;ey.ople ? 

, 

[:11 

I131 Q 

!-‘3] A 

Was Jodie Torkelson in the room when that happened? 

I’m sure - I’m sure she was. 

i ;t ilisten to my uestion ve 

QI Okay. D; Evev Lieberman say - I want you to 

123 1 about it you 

care Ily. and rf there s anythin 

on’t unders and, I want you to ask me and I ‘I I 

[ 2 4 1 rephrase rt. 

1251 A Yes, sir. 

. . 0 Was thus a situation where Evelyn Liebemn said, 

t f :‘I want you to get rid of Monica Lewinsky because I’m Ned 

: 2: of her hanging around the West Wrng,” and then, “By the way, 

!4 :what kind of worker rs she? 

ii: And 

:s:bad, too.” K 

ou said somethin like “Her work is really 

nd Evelyn said. &t rid of her.” 

I-- Was that how the conversation went? 

iBi A No. 

19: Q Oka 

[131$‘s a situation that I! 

As I understand what ou’re saying, 

velyn Lieberman knew a Iio 

1111447 general. 

ut already, 

t12i A Right_ 

Q She knew that it was a situation of both inferior 

i::iwork by MTicaCiti_l!- 

115: 

i16j Q - and the separate problem of Monica being where 

r17+ke shouldn? be - n the West Wing? 

1181 A 

Q 

That clearty added to it too. yes, sir. 

[:i;Eve n Lrebennan saying, Get nd of them” 

$&in~dent? 

And a prec+itatrng factor - In terms of 

-was the 

l23j. . 

A Yes. sir. 

Q IS there any wa about how I’ve descrtbad it that 

;;:;rs Incomplete or thatr woudlike to add to? 

A No. I nk that’s pretty accurate. 

Page 66 

Ill Q 

[:]got any tralnrn for 

A 

6 parbcular ob in correspondence. 

gThars - unfortuna ely those ‘ohs a lot of the 

Okay;;. Do you knr whethe;,, not Jocelqn Jolley 

t%imeofbaptismwithfire. Theperson’thatle wasawoman 

1s: b 

I 6 ; S K, 

the name of LeAnn Inadomi. who was absolutely wonderful. 

had done the job since day one. 

She was still in the corn 

Iiiaffairs. You know, as far as a 

ound workin for cabinet 

“SI ! down, and la 9 ma walk 

i;;i$$‘“$=n’t somebody sr@ng 

I121 A 

[ 131 ou know, 

Correct. Training her exactly what to do. But, 

,14&d 

LeAnn told her how to do the job and what to do. 

LeAnn was in the complex and, you know, all she had to do 

1151was pick up the phone and call. 

[161 Q Jocetyn? 

1171 A Jocetyn. And. you know, she was told that, LeAnn 

t 1sltoM her she would help her. you know. I don’t think she 

t~slavailed herself of that much. though. 

[201 Q Now, Jocelyn Jolley was there, I believe you said, 

I 2 1 ~lwo Years before she ever went to corresoondence. 

i22j - A Yes, sir. 

I231 

124i 

2 t;E y in legislative affairs. 

!253 Q Evejbody was happy with her work there. 

Page 67 

A 

I: iassistant. so she d;d a bt of her schedulin 

Yes she did - she was Lorraine Millers personal 

13 1phones. sent photooraphs out. She did a I% 

answering 

t of thinas - 

-_ _~._ 

OlCStarl Paga62toPage67 

. . 
2249 

Timothy Keating, 2/25/98 

Page 68 

i z jassume you told both Monica and 

[ : o 1 to be removed? 

[I:] A Yes. sir. I did. 

i-21 

:131 

1141 

. i:5j A I don’t know if she s&med surprised. I think - I 

: I 6 1 think they both knew it was coming. She left me a voice mail 

: 27 I message $erw 

[ISI 

r191 A 

ards. 

Yes. sir,. she did, that wasn’t you know - it 

it wasn’t too nrce. but then - 

Page 69 

:I! Q Had you warned her - ou said there were no 

:2 1 written reorimands or waminas in her x 

I3i ‘A That’s correct: 

le. correct? 

Q 

i : i behavior continued 

Had7you warned her that she might be fired if her 

.-. 

I61 A What I had to said to them, and said to them both 

;7!on numerous occasions, was this couldn’t continue like this. 

! 9 : You know, I had - and - 

:91 Q What couldn’t? 

[13: A 

[ 1: : answering 

The lack of performance, the absence, the not 

phones, the wandering around the old building, the 

1 L,- !-.you know, taktx- instead of takin 

rr3:HrI-takrnqapa of letters to the HI $ I 

one letter to the 

: :4 :takin 

for deliverina. 

::51out o 3 

one Tetter and taking several trips a day, just% be 

.--, the office. 

‘:E‘ There was - I mean there was a 

i f 7 ; told them it couldn’t - it couldr;‘t continue. 9 

attem. And I 

i : $1 both aware of that. 

hey were 

::3: And just as - you know, I think if I was goin to 

; z 3 ; quote/unquote fire them In the sense of, “You’re fired, 9, ave 

Page 70 

: : ‘for another chance. And when I talked to them that day, 

: z ‘that’s what I told them - that they both were getting a 

: 3 : second chance. 

:4: 0 You said that you tdd each of them this couldn’t 

: 5: continue. correct? 

‘i .-. A 

.-. Q 

i I ‘that they were goin 

ET ‘ehu9’ ~~~~t~~either one of them 

to be fire 

: 5 : particular behavior. 

If they continued a 

.._. 

,-- A I don’t think I ever used that term. no, sir. 

..- 0 

: : s 1 be removed? 

Okay. Did you tell them they were going to 

.‘l 

,--. A I don’t think I ever said that, either. 

9 

How soon after 

them they 

I didn’t do it - I didnl tell them until I 

r:9:had itdone.. 

!ii’ *. 

129: 

Q Whatdoyoumean%that? 

12:: 

Aa loTant to alk to Bob ash and Patsy. 

122: A And I told them that I had to place two people, 

I 2 3 ; that I was getting rid of them, that thsn were some 

[ 24 ; problems, and that - that it was time to see if we 

[ z s I can get them somewhere else. 

[:: ~afar~~~blemwithwork 

i2 1 performance t an did Montca. in the sense that, you 

[3lshe had a bnger pattern of not getting the job done. 

know, 

[rlthinkshewasI 

151 Q As I understand you, even though a bt of Mowa’s 

[61 roblem was caused by the fact that she was ha ing around 

[71 P he West Wing too much, there were also substan “p nre 

rs~problems. You mentioned, for instance, taking o4x 

(9 1 letter at a bma to deliver. 

[Itlnonsense 

What is “this nonsense”? 

1141 A I mean, the - you know, the taking - 

1151 Q Scenic tour? 

(231 Q Oka 

f241 A Yea K Even the placementwasdiffemnt. Shewas 

rzslputat-shewentovertoGSAona12@dayappointment-a 

Page 72 

~~~pro~n p Odkady’bid she know that? 

131 A Yes. 

I41 Q That it was probationary? 

[51 A Oh, yeah. 

161 Q Who told her that? 

171 A Idid. 

[ 2 11 a shaking up. 

0 

/:i; Patsy Thomasson is the only or prima 

Okay. What did you tell Patsy Thomasson? 

ii;-;wrth 4n pmsidentlal personnel to place x t

person you worked 

ese women? 

A As I remember IL I talked to Patsy Thomasson and 

Page 73 

I I 1 Bob Nash. But I think I talked to them together, and any 

I 2 jfollow-up was with Pats 

131 Q What ddyou tell them about the probkurts. if any, 

[ 4 with these employees? Let’s start with Monica “lewinsk 

[51 A 

[ 6 1 I think I proQ3ab 

I71 

c well, you asked me the temt dutch” Lfom. 

k”,“id that with Monkx. 

[El A I pro r; ably said that with Monica to Patsy. She - 

19lshe was a dutch. Them was a 

,Q clp 

roblem there. 

1101 Other than ths &h/scenic route problem. did you 

I 1 I 1 discuss wrth anybody in 

I 12 1 performance problems 

residential personnel the other 

o P 

A 

Monica Lewinsky? 

~::~ofke. Andtheproblemintheofficewasthatthejob 

I discussed the problem that I was having in the . 

[ lsjwasn’t getti done. 

I161 

rl’llthemasonswasthat ou now-from onlcawasthat,you 

If% job wa$t p done.~ou~know. one of 

flsjknow. shewas a clut she was trying to get into events, 

rl9lshe was walking around too much. 

rzztearlv. You know. them -VW know, yeah, I talked about 

i23jthOieprobkms.’ ‘- 

:::;patsy 

0 Dii you also mention, if you recall, to 

fhomusontoOMBinc&nt-ItakeittheOMB 
ESA Timothy Keating, 212998 uux(*aj 

Page 74 Page 77 

, r _,... I 1 incident -.- -... - 

(21 A lt was known, yes, sir. 

i: 1 that within the office. 

Q Okav. 

:‘I And I wanted to handle it 

131 

A 

i 3 Iwant them to be embarrassed. The 

I:; confirmed with Jodie about the OMB. 

And that’s - and she had - I think Patsy even I 4 I to check out. Nobody was going to 

Q 

i:iMonica Lewi 

Okz;d The OMB incident involved both 

rslto Point B. 

A %% th~&~h&te%rr%~ondence 

161 Q What do you mean by ‘ample time? 

[71 A 

I61 

You know, when you - when you - ‘If it takes 

[ 9 1 unit. So the corres ondence und drdn’t task these letters. 

t 6 I you today to close out, I’d like 

r10lSo yeah, it inv them both. I mean, there were two 

I 91 need to come to tomorrow 

ou to dose out lf you 

an dy-• whatever. Just you have to 

11 I1 people in that office every day, the 

[ 12 lwhich pile it goes in. 

openin 

I mean, they didn gt 

mail, deciding 

ou have to go through a check-out procedure to leave the 

r13~decide to - you can’t separate them. 

- they didn’t But it wasn’t like one week or two weeks? 

[141 Q Oka 

A No, sir. No, sir. lt is, you know, take the rest 

rlsjincident with Patsy ‘c 

Drd you discuss - in addition to the OMB 

homasson - thjs phenomenon of Monica 

t::iof the day, do it. 

[16]deliVednqone k?tMr at a bme. One place Of correspondence 

Q In other words, they weren’t escorted from their 

r17lat a time. 

f :zidesk immediately? 

[171 A Correct. 

I181 Q All right. They were given a day. 

1191 

[201 A0 z f”. 

I211 A And~diditonadaywherealotofpeoplewere 

I 22 I not really around. that they didn’t have to be embarrassed, 

I 23 I if they were embarrassed. 

1241 Q 

A 

Were they surprised? 

I251 I don’t think so. 

2250 

Page 75 

r 1 I she couldn’t - 

I21 

r31 G No. -cutitatwork? 

A No, there wasn’t an exclusive problem. There were 

[ :i problems that led to this office not functionin property. 

161 Q I take it, your discussion with B atsy from 

[ 7 1 the git-go. and with Bob Nash, was about both of 

[ 8 1 these ef’tIplOyeeS_ 

[91 A Yes, sir. 

Q In other words it’s not a coincidence that they 

I : F i both happened to be removed on the same day. 

[12] A 11 was - I planned it that wa 

1131 0 0ka;r. And that’s because t K 

[ 14 1 their office properly 

ey weren’t operating 

A 

1 :,‘I I’m going to make that type of a move 

Correct The office was being run poorly and if 

ou know this whole 

Page 78 

111 

2 l’%gn I - the funny part is when I asked them 

i:iboth to come over I mean, think they said, “I think we know 

r 4 Iwhat this is about.’ 

i5i Q Who said that? 

161 

171 

G Ithi’: itByIsI A 

Q 

But &ey hadclearly talked about on the way over. 

[ i,‘! referring to gettin 

Well do you know whether or not that they were 

1111 A I t f? 

moved or to the OMB incident? 

[ 12 lwas the end. 

ink they' were thinking this was - this 

1131 Q All right. But thev didn’t articulate that to you? 

I I 7 toperation needs to be pulled apart and % en put back together 

[ : 9 j new. I needed them both out of there. 

(2r:with to have been toldL 

II91 Q Would ou ex 

th a g 

ct the person who Monica was placed 

[ 2 I land her clutch roblem? 

ut her performance problems 

A 

i % 1 that routinely. 

Pthink that - I wouldn’t - you know I didn’t do 

No. I didn’t talk to anybody over at DOD. 

[:c;SoIdon’t-Imean- 

[:S; 0 mat wasn’t your function? 

1141 A No, s?r. _ 

[151 0 AlI ht. I asked you if they were surprised. 

;;;;You said ye”” dtd;#rrk so. 

1151 0 Were they upset, either one of them+ 

1191 A Yes. 

1201 Q 

roll 

Okay. What was the reaction of Monica Lewinsky? 

.~~. A Team 

rz21 

i23i 

r241 

1251 

Q All rioht 

A Yeah:sheQ 

A 

What do you recall her saying? 

Not - not much during - I mean, just - we went 

Page 78 

‘i! A 

‘: ; to know. 

It wasn’t my function but, you know, I’d want 

:3i Q loyer or her new supervisor 

,4‘ A 

lf you were her new em 

You know, sure. I wou kf want to know. But. you 

: 5 i know, I think the - I think the problem here is is that 

r;~Monrca was a very bright person that had 

.T 

j ? 1 I 

ust that I thank she was in the wrong situa ion. She was in 

ptential. It’s 

he wrong envrronment. 

: :.by anythrn 

In other words, she was star-struck 

i:~’ a and everything. 

; : i ;that they were 

Tell us about the actual day that you told them 

A 

orng to be moved 

:I:‘ 8 was right before Easter 

: 13 ! noon. And I can7 remember if it was the 9 

robably late morning. 

hursday before 

I know it was either one 

Page 79 

i::&r that - that..you know ihis didn’t 

She - you know she wanted to stay. And I told 

I i 6 Goming back into the White House a P 

rohibii her from 

some point; that she 

t17lneededtogrowup;thatsheneededtogoovertoDOD doa 

t 1s jgood job, and then 

r 1 s 1 able to get a job b&& in the White House 

ou know at some point she may be 

Q 

But not now. 

1201 Did YOU be that to a soe& time period? 

t211 A Nosir. .1-rm~ 

Q 

IZithe election? 

Dii you tell her she’d be able to come back after 

1241 A No, sir. 

I251 0 All right. You say that Monica Lewtnsky then wrote . 
2251 

BSA 

Page 80 

;~~yOlJa~te121 A She did, sir. 

[31 Q A few days later. 

Timothy Keating, 2125198 

Page 83 

ii; 

Q Let me ask you a question. 

A Yes, srr. 

Q Would 

I :i Evelyn Lieberman ha dy 

ou have moved them when you moved them. if 

(51 A 

not ordered you to do it? 

Well, it was a - it was a discussion with Evelyn, 

[6]as well, but at that point? Yes. Yes. 

[71 

[Bl i ?ji$b wasn’t gettin done. I - as I said I had 

[sla new boss who, you know, had jus P 

tlojdidn’t need that headache either. 

come in and, you know, I 

Q 

i::;thern after 

Okay. So even if Evelyn had not told you to fire 

[131you would X 

our discussrons with Evelyn and Jodie Torkelson. 

ave done it yourself? 

Cl41 A I think I would have moved them myself, yeah. 

rl51There was a -there was a problem in that shoo that needed 

I41 A Yes. sir. 

151 Q 

rslnote say? 

To the best of your recollection, what did that 

A It was - it was a ramblin 

Iii-youknow.“I’m-” you know, ‘I want 9 

note type of, you know 

o come back. 

[9)She offered to come back as a volunteer again. 

i:iithe note. 

Q I want to know everything you remember about 

A 

! :: t remember about the note is - is a line that she had wrote 

The one thing -the only -the one thing I 

i 14 j that, 7his job was my everythin _- 

You know she had told a 8 of her friends. She was 

[:zi - (shrugging). You know, she wanted to come back in. You 

117 1 know, rt was embarrassing for her to be shipped off, and she 

[I B 1 wanted to come back in; would I consider it. I didn’t 

t19lrespond to the note and - 

Q Diishe t to 

[:~~obviously. she wasn’t hig XR er 

ullanyrankonyou? I mean, 

tz2)pull any rank? 

an you, but did she try to 

[231 A No. sir. 

I241 0 Was there any feedback from the decision to n 

[zs]Monica Lewinsky? 

nove 

i23j A Yes, sir. 

Ct Was the removal of 

$:ishape, or form cover for the removal o 

fB in.any way, 

onrca Lewasky? 

Page 81 

(11 A Zero. 

PI Q Okay. Did anF 

I 3 1 than Monica was upset abou R? 

ever tell that you anybody other 

L41 A 

Q 

And Jocelyn. Other than that, no, sir. 

I z i President asked about who had moved Monica Lewinsky? 

Did Evelyn Lieberman ever tell you that the 

171 A No, sir. 

Q 

[ ii about coming back? 

Did Monica Lewtnsky ever call you on the phone 

t101 A - Yes, sir. 

t:11 0 How many times? 

[l?l A Wtihin that - within the first week or so -week 

[ i3lor two weeks, she robabl called two or three times. 

1141 Q 

I:51 A 

Anrfwhat Jd she say? 

Giving me a prymss report on, y know, going 

[ I 6 I over to the Pentagon; that, you now, s e wasn set yet; 

! 17 lshe was - you know, she was - there was a few days for the 

I 18 1 

[ 19 1 g 

aper paperwork to catch up and, you know, asking me to come 

ack as a volunteer. 

0 During the two- to three-day interim? 

A No, sir. 

Q 

A 

Or just forever? 

Just in general. 

0 Okay. 

A That she would - she would give up any pay to come 

Page 82 

; : 1 back and prove herself within the White House. You know, 

: 2 I that her provtng ground shouldn’t be somewhere other than 

; 3 I the Whrte House. 

Q All ri 

I : i cried when you told ? 

1. As I understand it basically she 

er. basically begged you to stay. 

;;; 

A Yes, sir. 

Icz, 

a-, 

AQ g;;tte you a letter asking to stay. 

!Bi Q ~da’illfd 

[ : c ! asking you if she coul J 

ou a few times during the first week, 

A Yes, sir. 

stay. 

i;:! 

!I21 Q But you don’t think she was surprised by your 

I 13 I de&on to move her? 

iici A 

I 15 I they 

No, I don’t. I - I - I think that - well. 

knew that there was a problem and I - you know, I mean, 

[ i 6 I because I was over there pokin seein 

[ 17 I messed up. So they knew that 9 

around, 

here was a pro % 

what else was 

lem within the 

t 1 e I- you know. the week or so. 

Cl91 You know, I -‘I don’t think that they were - I 

[ 10 1 really donl think they were surprised. I think that they 

lx 1 have had flanged. 

121 Iwere unha p I think that they - they woutd have loved to 

[231 You know. as I said. Jocelyn left me a voice mail 

rzclmessa 

tzslboth d’ I? 

you know. Monica wrote me a note. They - they 

n’t leave. but - 

Page 84 

t11 A Absolutefy not. 

121 Q Asfaras ou knew. ,’ 

131 A Asfaras 7 knew. 

Q 

f ti President Clinton? 

Did you ever see Monica Lewinsky alone with the 

1101 A No. sir. 

iiij Q Did you ever see her enter a room where you thought 

(12 1 President Clinton had been beforehand? 

[131 A No sir. 

Q 

I ::; President Clinton had been beforehand? 

Did you ever her enter a room where you thought 

[161 A No sir. 

0 

i :i i President Clinton was beforehand? 

Did you ever see her leave a rcom where you thought 

1191 A No, sir. 

Q 

i:y:or found out she was there beforehand? 

Did you ever see him enter a room where you thought 

1221 A No, sir. 

Q 

I::-l]or found out she was there beforehand? 

Did you ever see him leave a room where you thought 

I251 A No, sir. 

--.--. -_-.._ 

Page 85 

Ill .~. Q When vou told - 

121 A 

r3lbeen into - 

I as&ridj6J%an alone. I mean, you know, we’d 

[41 0 Yes.’ .. 

(51 A - groups for photos and things like that. 

161 Q Yes. 

171 

181 .-, Aa ?2? 

r91 A Alihght. 

I101 0 Dii 

[ 111 before the last mon r 

ou hear from anybody - let’s talk about 

h or so. when thus has become a huge 

(12 tpubkc phenomenon. 

1131 A Yes, sir. 

Q 

i::;first-hand second-hand thi 

Dii you at an time hear from an 

rd: hand, eighteen thXz’-- 

1161 .~~. ‘A Twentiianc. 

1171 Q - that there was a relationship of some kind - a 

tlstromantic relationship, sexual relationshi 

[ 191 President Clinton and Monica 

- between 

Lqwinsky ? 

~:~~there’s 10,ooO rumors 

A Imtryi%to-vgtoremqmber-Imean. 

at ftoa around the place that you 

t221- you may hear and dismiss because of the credibiliity of 

t23lthe people who Spread such rumors. You know, may I have? 

[24]l may have. But rf I had I probably dismissed it. 

(251 Q Okay.ThePage 80 to Page 85 OICStarr 
2252 

RSA -. Timothv Keating, 2125198 

Page 86 Page 89 

I:: A I mean. I know that’s not answerinq the questron 

;z 1 really, but that’s probably about the best I can - that’s 

’ 3 1 probably the best answer I have for rt. 

i41 Q known amon 

15 1 you. Jodie 

Was it general 

Torkelson. and Eve $n Liabem’tan 9 

more people man 

hat Monica 

~6 jwas a clutch? 

( 11 that Monca Lawins? qot placed in a job that would cause nsr 

12 1 to have frequent VIS s o t e West Wrng? I m not sayrng 

(3 1 that happened. but would you be concerned. gtven one of ms 

[ 4 1 reasons why she was moved - 

A I think that Monica needed to be shaken 

Izithe move in itself. I think, was enough to make her mcrve ?nYFd 

[ 7 lthe intern level to the staff level. And that’s what needed 

[B 1 to happen to her. So the answer to that would be no. 

[91 Q Okay. That would not have concerned you? 

1101 A No, sir, I don’t mink it would have. 

1111 0 Okay. And - 

1121 A 

I 13 1 Wing. 

I mean,, as long as she’s not working in the West 

lf she had a - d she had a position that - that - 

114 II mink she just needed to be moved and shaken up a bit; that 

t151- you know, you need to make a transition. 

Q Would it tOncem you rf you found out - I’m not 

I:;isaying this is true. 

A Yes, sir. 

i171 A Yes, sir. 

[18! Q And let’s talk about within the offices of the 

[ 19 1 chief of staff and the office of legislative affairs. 

1201 A Yes, sir. 

0 

i:: i by credibk people. based upon what was known about 

And my question to you is: Was there srtation 

onlca 

123 lbein a dutch - was then speculation that there m’ ht be 

t241an aI&ir between Monica Lewiy and President &ton? 

1251 A I don’t think I hea - ever heard anyone say mat 

Page 87 

[I Ithere was an affair between them - anyone saw an affair, 

12 1 that anyone heard of an affair. 

[31 Q But that wasn’t the question. 

(41 A Yes, sir. 

Q Was then speculation that m‘ ht be an affair 

i : i or rn- ht be a sexual relationship of some kin 

% 

2. tn those 

[‘JtwOO ces? 

[3l A Not tom knowledge. 

!9! 0 

I : 0; with anybody? 

Okay. Y!JU don’t remember discussing mat 

[li! A No. 

.^~, 

.--_ Q Okay. Did you convina Joce 

: 2 j*she should write on her separation fom’r that s ?A 

n Jolley that 

e was 

: L‘ 4 : being promoted? 

‘-i’ 

,--. A No, I didn’t convince anyone. I - 

Page 88 

Q Did you suggest it? 

._ A When I talked to them, what.1 said was that, you 

: 2 1 know, you can poftra 

’ people.” I didn t wan r 

this as a promouon. d you’d like. to 

:; 

them to be embarrassed. 

j c : form to 

Q Did you authorize Jocelyn Joliey on her separation 

sa that she had been promoted? 

._. x No, I don’t know even know what she put on her 

i .separatton form .i Q The - ,17. 

..-. A Because it’s not-technically, it’s not a 

: : : .promotion if you put in a separation form. I mean, 

: : : : you’re separatina. You can - vou have a list a 

; : 3 ; reason fur separation. 

(i4. I wouldn’t - I wouldn’t think most people would 

* : s i put “promotion.” I think most qla would put, you know. 

: : E : moved to a different agency. I 

: : - ! her separation fan. though. 

on’t know wha she put on 

i:?: Q But your answer is no, you didn’t authorize her - 

::?: 

12:: Aa NoU sir. 

.-1. 

L--l A 

_: to put that on her separation form? 

,.._I, I--, Q %i!u authorize her to put that on any government 

123 lforrn - that she ha been promoted? 

I-‘41 A No, sir. I 

125: 0 Okay. Would you have been conamed to find out 

I 

Page SO 

t 11 the reasons she was transferred? 

[21 A Not - not necessarily. 

131 Q And why is that? 

I41 A You’re go in to see friends, you go in for lun&. l 

I$& IKI 

know. I mean. I - I’ve been gone from the 

se for over a year, and I’ve been in there more 

r7lthan 20 times. 

I - you know, I maan it depends on what context 

ii;To see someone in the West ting does not necessarily - is 

tlotnot necessarily a bad thing. 

Q Meanin no disres 

I::; higher-level person tha she IS IS hat coned? 

1131 A Yes sir! *. ’ 

ct to Ms. Lewinsky, ypu’te a 

Q Andeven now, ou’re a artner at one of tha 

~:!~premier bbbyin firms in the 

I161 

A +t,, sir it is. 4; is thafoorm@ 

[171 Q The’- ’ 

Cl81 A I mean, I - it depends on who her friends waa and 

[ 1glwhether they were gorng out. l-mean, I - you know, I had a 

I 20 J lot of kids that left - not under her drarmstanass. but a 

[21 )lot of kids that Left that came back. The 

IZiWest 

Q Let me ask you this: D d 

still gq back. 

~241 ““%p”‘L sir. 

you ever sea her in the 

1251 Q - she left? 

Page 91 

111 A Yes, sir. 

I21 0 How many times? 

A Andl-it’s-whenIsaytheWestWrng- 

[:~becausa a lot of times - and I’ve seen her a couple times 

1 s J but a lot of times where I would see her would be going out 

I 6 1 OntO the west &eC - 

171 Q 

ISI A 

Let’s say White House then. 

White House is a better term for me. 

Q Okay. How many times did ou 586 her in tha 

t:,‘;White House after she was at the i 

Ill1 A 

Pentagon 

Probably abqut four five trmas. 

I::$he left? 

Q Allright. Didanyofthose-howsoonaftar 

A 

IK~m0nU-r ortwo. 

I don’t know. Probably within - probably withi, a 

(161 Q Did this concern you at all? 

A No lsawher-I-Imean.IthinkIsawherwt 

I:: !on West Exac. Arid I just asked - 

(191 Q 

A 

Did this concern you at all? 

I$te was doin 

No. I asked her owthe job was doing and hav 

‘us 

And, you know, 1 

122lyou know 

was ruhning to a car. 

I231 ‘d “70~ were running to $ to a can 

A Yeah.I-lmean,tha s-thecarswasiineup 

i%!rtght outside West Execand. you know, part ofmyjobwas to . 

OlCSt8rr Page86 toPage9l 
2253 

SSA 

- 

Timothy Keating, 2l25l96 

Page 92 

(I !be on the Hill, back and forth a lot. 

0 Did you ever hear that Evel 

r 

n Lieberman saw Monrca 

[ii in the White House after Monica was sent o the Pentagon and 

I I !was upset about it? 

[51 A No. sir. 

Q 

i76jMonica in the White House. period. after 

Did you ever hear that Eve 

rx onrca Lieberman went saw 

i 9 j to the Pentagon? 

A After Monica went to the Penta on I never had 

1 :z;another conversation with Evelyn Lieberman a % out ‘. It or talked 

[ 1 I 1 to an ybod ygaboggz y Lieberman (sic) in th$. 

~$lhite House that she o f/z 

rson who was so wrlkng to stay at the 

red to work there as a volunteer 

[ 1 I 1 and you saw her four or five times within the first month of 

(151 her going to the Pentagon - 

I161 A No.no. Isaidlsawher- 

[l-J1 Q Well. let me finish, and you can tell me if I’m 

rls~wrong about something. 

You saw her four or tive times within the first 

I:zl]rnonth. and you weren’t concerned? 

I211 A No. that’s not - you may have misunderstood me 

I221 Q Okay. 

A IJaidIsawherfourorfivetimesinthe 

i::iremaining two years that I was the White House. 

1251 Q Okay. 

Page 93 

A And I saw her within the first month or so. 

0 On one occasion? 

A Yes. sir. 

f13! A Not necessarily, but I - I otentially could have. 

r14: 0 Do ou ever recall specu ahng wrth 

1 I5 1 Jennifer Palmieri a r;, 

Put whether or not there was 

[ I 6 1 possibly a; affaNroof some kind - 

[171 

[I?! 

2 No sir. 

- between Monica and the President? 

114; 

~~~~thing out. 

Q Okay. You testified that you worked this 

[?‘I A Yes. sir. 

:23j Q Thenm- 

(24‘ 

(2s j process d&e and, you know, everything was - 

I talked to Patsy and by the time they got the 

Page 94 

i!: Q 

;: 1 that they were 

Okay. How soon before you told Monica and Jocetyn 

orn to be removed did you - 

13; 

14) 

Aa &$3ern they had to leave? 

Q What? 

:;1: A Talked to Eve 

( :: 1 things were worked out whi 42 

n. talked to Bob and Patsy. When 

113: Q 

probably took about a week - 

Okay. That was my question. 

1141 A Yes, sir. 

(15: 0 In other words,about a week before ou told Monica i 

[ 16 Iand Jocelyn that they were going to be removed - a !I out a 

I 1~ Iweek before that is when 

A Yes sir. &s sir. 

ou went to Patsy and Bob Nash? 

1191 

I191 0 Okd I know it’s difficult for you - 

f2Ol A I’m f?ne. 

i2li Q You’re doing all tight? 

I221 A Yes, sir. - - 

Q 

I: : 1 outside for ‘ust a moment 

Okay. I am oin to have toask ou tostep 

d 

w%ile ?talk to the grad jurors. 

1251 Okay. sir. 

Page 95 

. 

.-_ 

._. 

.-_ 

i3: 

:1‘ 

Q And 1’11 come and get you. 

A Okay. 

p,h,’ witness was excused and recalled.) 

i;; MR. WtSENBERG: 

i 6: Mr. Keatin 

Let the record reflect that 

k+? 

has reentered the Grand Jury room. Do we have 

[?!quorum. adame Fore non? 

l9i DEPUTY FOEPERSON: Yes we do. 

:9: MR. WlSENBERG: 

r101Gnnd Ju room? 

Any unauthortzed persons in the 

r:11 %E PLJTY FOREPERSON: None. 

MR. WlSENBERG: 

i::;wtmess of? 

Anything you want to remind the 

r14i DEPUTY FOREPERSON: 

you’re under oath. 

Mr. Keating, I need to remind 

[:s]you 

:161 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

1171 BY MR. WlSENBERG: 

I181 Cl 

rl9]question about whether or no you h 

rzolan affair. 

Let me start bf askinpo-ml as&oo~a~eral 

I211 Did you witness an incident or hear about an 

122 1 incident - dunng an 

r231that M,yoo, 

of your time in the White House - 

youne # , 

124 lsomcthlng goln 

to speculate that there might be 

on between Monica Lewinsky and the President? 

t251 A ? never witnessed anything. I had heard probably 

Page 96 

[I I fourth or fifth- or sixth-hand that - that she saw the 

[ 2 I President after she was dismissed, and that was - that was 

r 3 I that. I never heard any more than that about it. 

0 

:&as dismissed? 

So what do you mean -saw” the President after she 

161 A That - the rumor was that she came in the Saturday 

r 7 I after she was dismissed and saw the President and asked if 

r91-ifhewouldhelpgetherjobback-orsawBetty,or 

191- someone. 

[lOI That was the - that was the rumor. But nothing 

111 lever came of it, and I never - never proved it, never heard 

l:zjofit again. 

Cl31 0 

A 

Who did you hear the rumor from? 

I::isaidthattheyhadheardProbably somebody on the staff - my staff, who 

1161 Q Do you remember who? 

:171 A 

I 18 iChris Walker. 

Speculation, it probably would have been 

i:9j Q All right. 

I201 A Because he was the one that actually replaced 

121 IJocelyn and Monica. So, you know - you know, it was one of 

t2rs one of%he 

[--I these thin s that may not necessarib be credible. You know, 

se things where he didn’t see it, he heard it, 

tz4lwhoheardit1251 0 Tell me everything else about the rumor, in 

Page 97 

r I I the sense that, other than the fact that she visiied the 

[ 2 I President and asked for him to reverse ths decision- 

[31 A That was all that I heard about it. 

I:;form? 

Q Okay. Did you ever see Jocaiyn Jolley’s separation 

I61 A 

Q 

No. sir, I don’t think I did. 

[71 

[ 8 1 scenic mute? 

Did you ever personally witness Monica taking the 

(91 A No, sir. 

I101 Q Did Evelyn, as far as you know? 

Ill1 A 

Q 

She talked to me about it. so I assume she did. 

IZlit, aNled? 

Evelyn would have been in a position to see 

I141 A Well, not - well, yeah ‘I& for the simple reason 

r151that this is very close over in here (I .& rcahng). And, you 

I I 6 J know. while Evelyn’s office is blocked in the comer and 

I 17 1she realty cant see out into the hallwa there’s bt of 

r 1 e I movement between Leon’s office and 

1191-you know. just 0” In that corrkior. 

&r ofga?. or you know 

I:!!was an interior of&e. It didn’t have a 

So sure Im sure she - you~E~$;&oMce 

122 I have a hall view. 

f23irecepbon area. 

It had a view out into the - out into a 

I::~when?thenwasanowh;lktof-ttra~sthtnxwntha 

But. you know the Roosevelt Room was Tht here, 

~___~__ _~ .._ 

Page 92 to Page 97 OIC-smrr 
2254 

Timothy Keating, 2125198 

Page 98 Page 101 

!: 1 enerally staff meet in or they bring People, was the 

12 ! w oosevelt Room. So you’d have to come out in the hall 

:sland go that wa 

Q 

/:jscenic route? 

bid Evelyn tell you she had seen Monica take the 

I61 A Yeah. Yes, sir. 

[‘I Q Who is Jim Dorskind? 

I81 A Jim Dorskind was the director of correspondence for 

191 the White House. 

riol Q Did he make any complaints to YOU about Jocetvn or 

ji; jhrlonica Lewinsky? 

A Imsurehedii. 

!131 Q All ht. Do you recall what they were? 

I141 A I don T ,, because Jim Dorskind - you know, that was 

:15lalways a source of fnction between - Jim Donkind is in 

116 1 charge of presidential correspondence, and I have an office 

i 17 1 that‘s in charge of con ressional correspondence. 

So technica& it’s kind of taking away his - 

i:zisorne of his - his author+ to do correspondence. So there 

izo~was always a tiik friction as to, you know, who did what 

tzlland-so, ouknow,I1221 El 

t23lcomplainin about omca ewi 

I241 w 

Okah But vu caz~ll an incident of him 

Not - not necessari . 

1251 Q Or Jocelyn Jolley? 

[il A Oh, yeah. dinner, drinks - he’s a friend. He and 

i2 1 Janice Enri ht are both fnends. 

I: ] you were 

8 

oin 

Is that the first point in time when you told hm 

to be mtervrewed the next day by the FBI? 

r5i 1 (tes. .-1 

I61 Q 

A 

All right. At that meetin 

(71 Yeah. I’m sure of that. 9, 

or at that - 

Q 

probably191 

A 

What did he say about that? 

r!zitell the truth. 

The only thing he said was, you know, good tuck and 

ilii 

I121 

I131 

1141 

0 All right. 

A Thatwas ou knowQ That’s the %I II extent of your discussion? 

A The full extent of it. We were talkina about 

i 15 i asbestos legislation. 

Ii76iabout 

Q Okay. That’s the full extent of your discussion 

119 labout Kn 

our interview and the full extent of your diicussion 

onrca Lewinsky on that nioht? 

Page 99 

A No, I - I can’t - I couldn’t point to a 

I: 1 specific incident. 

I31 0 How about Chris Walker? 

141 A I know Chris. Chris - 

Q No do you recall Dorskind making any complaint 

izlabout Chris Walker or somethino Chris Walker had done? . ~. 

171 

181 

191 

A 

Q 

He probably did. Sure. 

But you don’t have a recollection of it? 

A Of somethina that Chris did that Jim would 

: i 6 j complain about? 

llli Q Right. 

A I don’t s c&ally remember Jim - but I’m sure 

ii:! he did. I mean, I - tha fe happened a lot. And it hapoened 

! i 4 j with LeAnn before him. 

i:Sj 0 Are you aware of any occasion when the President 

r : E I came to off~ce of Notslative affiirs and saw Monica Lewinskv 

i i 4 j during the time she-worked there? 

A No, but it - it could have happened. I can 

ii&iexplain wh it could have ha 

:251 4 

A 

Why could rt .R pened. 

ave happened? :2:: When the President practices for thFn;fe of the 

: 2: 1 union address, he practices over in the East WI 

:231 theater. And the restroom facility is right outside .“9 he 

: 2 4 1 back, and you have to pass the correspondence oftice and you 

:: s! have to pass the ticket - the tour gutdes office. 

Page 100 

!:’ So whenever the President was doing the state of 

;: i the union address. it wasn’t unheard of for him to stick his 

; 3: head in and wave at 

‘41 0 Wou 

$eoPN. 

YOU have exoected staff members to make you 

: 5 i aware of a presidential visit? 

__.~ --- 

OlCStafr Page 98 to Page 103 

i15; Q Had that been a prearranaed maetina? 

i16j A Yes. sir, it had. ’ - 

il7l Q 

A 

All right. How soon before had it been arran 

Well. we had been putting each other on an 

i i z ia while. We share a client. 

B 

ed? 

off for 

I--O1 0 All right. Is Mr. lckes of friend of yours also? 

1’11 A 

if:;drinks? 

Q 

A very good fnend. 

So you ve met him before? You’ve met hi for 

1241 A Oh, yes, sir. We’ve met for dinner. 

151 Q And you’ve met him before for drinks? 

Page 102 

t1130 seconds Ion er? Sure. it could have. But that was 

[2 lthe - the was t 4 

Q 

e grst of what he said. 

Okay. Other than saying go in and tell the truth. 

I :i dkt he implicitly or expiii indicate in any was what you 

I 5 I should sav? 

.-A- ~~ - --. 

I61 A No, sir. 

r;;to you? 

Q Did he irnplicitty or explicitly make any threats 

191 A No, sir. 

I:y;and what 

Q You heard me talk about our investigation earty on 

t12lwhen you Vi 

rounds we were covering, what our authority was. 

rat came in. 

I131 A Yes, sir. 

L141 Q Is there anything relevant to our investigation, as 

[ 15 1 I’ve described it to you. that 

r 

ou haven’t tokl us? 

I161 A I can’t think o 

Q 

anything. 

Dii Mr. lckes ask 

I : i i President rd “,o,nca Lewinsky dy. 

ou what you know about the 

unng this meeting? 

[I91 

rzol Q I want to show vou somethina real auick. 

izij 

r221 

I231 

I241 

t251 

A Yes, sir. _ 

_ V_ 

Q I’m going to show you JJ-1. It’s a - 

kuror leaves room.) 

S WtRTH: Sol. we’re losin a juror. 

MR. WISENBERG: Do we str I have a quorum? 

8 

Page 103 

I11 DEPLJTY FOREPERSON: Mm-hmm. 

MR. WISENBERG: Oka 

I:lwe still have a uorum. Is that true 

DEPUTY FOREPERSON: 

R; 

Let the record reftect that 

adame Foreperson? 

I41 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Yes, it is. 

. 

. 
2255 

BSA 

Page 104 

Timothy Keating, 2/28/86 xyu(1.j 

--~ 

Page IO? 

L :1 explanation was wh that one batch - 

I:: THE WtdESS: The 

[ 3 I one batch. It took - when they te x 

never really - it wasn’t 

the office, rt took 

I 4 : 

P 

robably seven months to get that office back into sha 

ISI t was a total disaster. There was hundreds - hund re&eor 

I 6 I letters to the President that had never been answered. 

c-J1 A JUROR: Spread over a Ion 

9 

- 

I61 THE WITNESS: Spread over he period of time from. 

js)you know, when m started, you know, through Monica. I 

tlo1mear-1. you know, sa months, seven months. 

A I mean, I sent it. I just - you know, as I said. 

ilithis is not the h. hli ht of my - 

131 0 %el? I believe you said this momrn 

[ 4 Iquite possible that you did so. So I’m not trying to 

that it’s 

9. nck 

r51you or - 

161 A Oh. veah. veah. No. I’m - I’m sure that’s me 

ijilt sounds like me.. _ _ 

181 Q November 10, 1995. That is Exhibit 53-3. Jocetyn 

[sit0 you: 

‘I’m glad we had a chance to talk things out. 

i :i i Although I stand by my feelings, I b-u 

f12 1the tone of my e-mail. I realize now 3: 

apologize for 

at rt was 

;;;;;rro{.nate.. I m thep oprson who holds 

s t IS until I expl e. T ay I exploded, 

tls1and ‘m sorry I ex loded on you. 

“P.S. Ask* about the chip in his butt. 

,‘::!I think he had his ooeratnres olace one in mine. Therefore. 

ii6 j this explains my outburst today.” 

I191 All right. Do you recall receiving this? 

[ZOI A Yeah. 

Q Okay. Do you recall that you would have had a chat 

I::l]with her about her e-mail to ou and the tone of it? 

[231 A Oh I’m sure rdid. 

1241 MR. Wl$ENBERG: 

rzslgrand jurors? 

Are there any questions by the 

Page 105 

[ll THE WITNESS: 

A JUROR: 

Yes, ma’am? 

12, Okav. The situation with Jocelvn Jollev 

i;jand the OMB corms ondende - 

I . 

I41 THE WlTt$ESS: Yes ma’am? 

Iziof dates? 

A JUROR: - around ‘what time was that, in terms 

171 THE WITNESS: You mean the date that OMB - that 

[a lfound out about the OMB? It was probably - 

191 A JUROR: When it wasn’t sent - whatever time it 

j ioiwasn’t sent. -When it wasnY sent. 

:?I; THE WITNESS: What -the letters. you mean? 

1121 A JUROR: Mm-hmm. 

[:31 THE WITNESS: It was a - it was a stack of 

: i 4 1 letters. It wasn’t one letter, two letters, three - it was 

I 

r : 5 1 a stack of letters. 

Cl61 MR. WlSENBERG: 

( : 7 !dela 

Is your question how long was the 

1: s 1 OM & 

or when did OMB complain? Is your question: When did 

complain about it? 

!:9: A JUROR: Yeah. Or when did he hear about it - 

; 2 o 1 around what time? 

;21; THE WITNESS: It was - around what - 

i:?: A JUROR: 

: 2 3: budget crisis or - 

Was it around the time when you had the 

:24; THE WITNESS: No, no. The problem with OMB finding 

r25lthese letters was about a week before they were dismissed. 

. ..__.~ 

Page 104 to Page 109 OlCStarr 

Page 106 

: : ‘About a week before they were - 

:: ! was the final thtn that caused us r o - to move them. 

ou know, that was - that 

i:;or after? 

A JUR a R: Was that before the budget crisis, 

!5. THE WITNESS: Oh, tt was after. It was - the 

: E 1 budget crisis occurred in December, and this was In April. 

._. A JUROR: Okay. Were you aware that somebody at 

i s i the OMB had advtsed Jolley to hold onto any correspondence I?‘ THE WITNESS: 

1: o jwouldn’t be pro 

That’s not - that’s - a) that 

I : I I that. she shoul ge 

r of them to do that; b) if the had done 

have told me that; and c) tha ty 

! : 2 I the way it’s done. 

s just not 

The Prestdent of the - these are letters to the 

i i: i President of the United States. 

I : s! make sure that the 

Her responsibility is to 

et out the door - 

[ :6 ]or get to his desk r 

‘re answered and they 

should say, in a timely ashron. 

A JUROR: 

3 

(1’3 

[I@ ~you this? 

So you’re saying .- that she never told 

1191 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma’am. That’s correct. 

1201 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

I211 Q Yes. she never told you? 

(221 A Yes, she never told me. 

I231 MR. WlSENBERG: Yes, ma’am. 

[241 A JUROR: Well, that was kind of my question. Did 

[ 2 5 1 you ask her why these weren’t sent? I was wondering what her 

Page 108 

r 11 is a large volume of letters going out. but. in fact. it was 

(2 jonly answerin one. - - 

BY &R. WISENBERG: I31 

I41 0 Do vou know who comolained at OMB? 

iS1 A I do-not. sir. 

Q Okay. You mentioned that the rumor you heard about 

$1 Monica gotg tteyw$ President - 

(61 

r!zlheard 

Q I thought in one version ou said you might have 

that she also went to see Betty. Xlasit- 

[ill A I said it could have been Bettv or the President. 

i121She was in that office. 

Q Okay. You don’t recall whether the rumor was that 

I : : ! she saw the President. or Betty? 

I151 A The rumor was that she saw - one rumor was 

[I 6 I that she saw Betty; the other rumor was that she saw 

r I 7 I the President. 

iisi 

2 %% was - you know she was in and around that 

/f~ioffhze on Sat&a 

I211 MR. W!$ENBERG: 

after she had been’ dismissed on Friday. 

All riaht. Anv other auestrons’l 

i22i 

I231 

I241 Q Let me show vou verv brieflv JJ4. 

i25j A Yes, sir. 

Page 109 

[II Q It’s a remrd of an e-mail from Jodie Torkelson on 

1?1April9. 1996 to Bob Nash and Patsy Thomasson. 

[31 A Okay. 

I41 Q It says: Both of these staff have secured 

1 s I positions in othel federal agenues - Monica at DOD and 

I 6 1 Jocelyn at:SA. 

I71 “I need to know if either of them - ” 

In terms of what Monica was trying to do? 
2256 

asA 

Page 110 

Timothy Keating, 2125198 

Page 113 

111 A No, sir. 

131 Q Okay. Here’s a response, apparently from 

i 3 1 Patsv Thomasson: ..I 

I4! ’ “Bob and I have been working with Trn on 

[s 1 these two people. We’re working do&y with DO 6 

lacing 

to make 

[ 61 this happen for Monica. We have not finalized the deal, but 

I 7 1 are workrng toward that end. 

Monica is coming in to see me toda 

ii;Tirn*s request of me. Our direction is to ma r, 

pursuant to 

e sure she has a 

[lo ljob in an agency. We’re working toward that end. Patsy.” 

riii .~~. Is that consistent with vour testimonv todav? 

I121 

[I31 

I141 

1151 

[I61 

1171 

llEl 

A Yes, sir. - 

I ----a 

Q Are you familiar with this? 

A I’ve never seen it, but it’s - 

Q Okay. Nothing su rising about it? 

A No sir. It’s accura ‘p e. 

MR. WISENBERG: Mr. Barger? 

BY MR. BARGER: 

il9j Q I have to two questions. 

1201 A Yes, sit? 

Q 

/::{the p1.17 of our meehn wrth lckes In 

roi “,“a”,;:“,’ meebng$tt~r.es, what was 

-well one it was social, 

I::; but, two, we have a shared client. We’re’dealing with 

[zslasbestos legislation. 

CEFCIFICATE OF REPORTER 

[Ill 

1121 

(131 

[I41 

I151 

1161 

I171 

1181 

1191 

1201 

1211 

I221 

(231 

1241 

[251 

ElQabeth J. Walker 

Off1121 Reporter 

Page 111 

I B 1 was nervous about it. and he said, ou know, the only thing 

I 91 I can tell you.’ he said. “I’ve done a bt of these, is just 

t 1 o 1 go in there and tell the truth.’ 

It wasn’t a reminder to tell the truth. lt was 

i:iljust his ex 

6s 

riences in the past. 

1131 You were testifying also in connection with 

uestion asked about have you heard an rumors. And 

about the Saturday meeting with tL President 

goes back to the original question 

: 19 1 relahonsht 

you heard any rumors about a sexual 

between the President and Monica? 

i f 3 I R At that time, no, sir. I had not 

I211 MR. BARGER: Okay. 

!221 MR. WISENBERG: 

[ 3 3 :your patience 

All right. Thank you very much for 

Any other questions? 

I,‘(! 

125; GE. ?X%~RG: May the witness be excused? 

Page 112 

DEPUTY FOREPERSON: Yes. sir. 

THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

MR. WISENBERG: Thank you very much. 

of the 

! - 1 was concluded.) 

!E’ . ...* 

e Grand Jury 

I141 

[:5! 

I:61 

[17! 

1191 

I191 

L2Ol 

I111 

[:I] 

I131 

i.241 

1251 

I 

. 

__~ _-~ - -__ otcstarr Page 110 to Page 113 

2258 

STATEMENT OF TIMOTHY J. KEATING 

IN RESPONSE TO PARAGRAPH h. OF THE INSTRUCTIONS 

ATTACHED TO THE FEBRUARY 11. 1998 SUBPOENA TO MR. KEATING 

Shortly after Ms. Lewinsky was transferred to the Department of Defense from the 

White House Office of Legislative Affairs, she sent me a three, possibly four, page personal 

handwritten letter expressing her unhappiness at being transferred. In that letter she also asked 

to be re-employed or to return as an intern. Soon after receiving that letter, I discarded it. I 

disposed of this letter because it is not my practice to keep such letters. I showed this 

document to several others. 

6095%1.1