1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5335 

PETITIO~ ·s, ETC. 

The following memorials, petitions, and other papers were presented 

at the Clerk's desk, under the rule, and referred as stated: 

By Mr. BARBER: The petition of citizens of. Brodhead, Wisconsin, for the passage of the bill to aid in the construction of the Continental Freight Railway, to the Committee on Railways and Canals. 

By :Mr. CROUNSE: The petition of grange organizations and citi- zens of Elmeruk and York, Nebraska, of similar import, to the same 

committee. 

Dy Mr. DUNNELL: The petition of citizens of Freeborn County, 

J\iinnesota, of similar import, to the same committee. 

By Mr. EAMES : The petition of Charles H. Arnold and Z7 others, 

of Uhode Island, masters and owners of ves els, for the abolition of 

compnlsory pilotage, to t)le Committee on Commerce. 

By :Mr. LOFLAND: Tho petition of N.H. Coverdale, for relief, to 

the Committee on Claims. 

By fr. McCRARY: The petition of the grange organization of 

Mount Pleasant, Iowa, for the pas~m ge of -the bill to aid in the con- struction o:F the Continental Freight Railway, to the Committee on 

Rail ways and Canals. 

.Dy Mr. ORR: The petition of citizens of Story County, Iowa, of 

similar import, to the same committee. 

Also, the petition of citizens of Calhoun County, Iowa, of similar 

import, to the same co:qJ.mittee. 

By Mr. PACKARD: The petition of citizens of Newton County, 

Indiana, of similar import, to the same committee. 

Dy J\fr. ~A~: Th.e :peti~ion of grange organizations of Wa.rren 

County, llirnms, of Similar rmport, to the same committee . . Dy Mr. ELLIS H. ROBERTS : The petition of Evan Jones, in relatiOn to the duty on crude petroleum oil, to the Committee on Ways 

and Means. 

By Mr. ~T~T])IFORD: The petitions of L?uis Surkant, Frank 

Fenster, William McDowell, and Sa.muel Sutterfield, respectively for arrears of pension, to the Committee on Invalid Pensions. ' 

By Mr. STRAIT: The petitions of grange organizations of Nicolet 

~ounty, Minnes~ta, for the J?a8Sa~e .of the bill to aid in ~he constructiOn of the Continental Freight .«.ail way,· to the Committee on Railways and Cannl. 

.llY Mr. ~~E~: The petition of citizens of Howard County, !ndiana, of smlilar Import, to the same committee. 

By Mr. VANCE: The petition of R. W. Hume and E. J. Arton and 

other citizens of Transylvania and Buncombe Counties North Carolina, that French Broad River, from Brevard· to Dunc~mbe line be 

declared a navigable river, and that an appropriation be mad~ to remove obstructions therefrom, to the· Committee on Commerce. 

By Mr. WILLIAM _, o~ Mich~gan: The petition of ~avilla Grange, 

Mu kegon County, M1chigan, for the passage of the bill to aid in the 

construction of the Continental Freight Railway, to the Committee on Rail ways and Canals. 

IN SENATE. 

1\foND.A.Y, June 22, 1874. 

The Senate met at eleven o'clock a.m. Prayer by the Chaplain, Rev. BYRON SUNDERLAND, D. D. 

Mr. SHERMAN. I move that the readin<T of the Journal be dispensed wit.h, and I 'de ire to state before the ~otion is put that I ask 

the attention of the ~enate to th~ importance of passing at least a few clauses of the tariff and tax bill sent us by the House. I propose as soon as I can get the floor to call up that bill and ask the Senate 

to act only on such points in the House bill as to which there is no objection here. There are some few points in it that ouO'ht to be passed 

for the bene~t of the revenue, and to insure certainty in the revenue: I do n?t desrre to act .upo~ any matter which will give rise to debate. 

I a.m mformed ~hat if this course is pursued by the Senate we can promptly and Without delay pa s a. few items of the bill as to interfi:al revenue ~nd a to customs duties which the Department are anxwus and de uous we shall act upon without any prolonged debate. 1\fr; RAMSEY. I entirely agree with the Senator from Ohio and in 

this connection would give notice that the post-route bill is yet un- acted upon. It is a long bill; the amendments are numerous and ~nst go into the hanus of th~ clerks to be engros ed and the whole 

b_1ll to be eru·olled unless yon mtend to lose it. If ·there is no objectiOn, I a k the Senate now to act on it, concurrincr with the Senator 

from Ohio in all he has said about his bill. o 

Mr. SHERMAN. I move that the readin<T of the Journal be dispen ed with with a view of taking up the t~iff and tax bill. It will 

not take more than half an hour under this a.rrangement. 

M~. ~AMSEY. Allow me first to pass the po t-route bill so as to 

got It m the hands of the clerks. · 

Mr. SHERl'YI.AN. The tariff bill is of much more importance. 

The P-?-ESIDEN~ pro tetnpore. Is there objection -to dispense wit.h 

the r ading. of. the Journal of ~aturday's proceedings t The Chair 

hears no obJectiOn, and the reading is dispensed with. 

INSANE CONVICTS, 

_The PRESIDENT pro tempo're appointed as conferees on the part of 

the Senate on the disa~reeing votes of the two Houses on the bill 

(~. R. ~o. 3415) to provide for .the care and custody of persons con- vwted ill the courts of the Uruted··states who have or may become 

insane while imprisoned, Mr. Fu.ELINGHUYSEN, llr. WRIGHT, and:J\lr. 

STEVENSO"X. . 

MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE. 

A mes age from the House of Representatives, by llr. McPHERSON, 

its Clerk, announced that the House had agreed to the report of the 

second committee of conference on the disagreeing votes of the two 

Houses on the bill (H. R. No. 2343) making appropriations for the cur- rent and contingent expenses oft he Indian Department and for fulfilling treaty stipulations with various Indian tribes for the year ending 

June 30, 1875, and for other purposes. 

The message also announced that the House had passed a bill (H. 

R. No. 3774) for the relief of the widow and children of General William Gat~ , United States Army, in ·which it requested the concur- rence of the Senate. 

The me sage further announced that the House had passed the bill 

(S. No. 669) referring the petition anu papers in the case of Robert!!. 

and Stephen A. Douglas, in so far as the same relates to cotton seizeu 

to the Court of Claims. ' 

ENROLLED BILLS SIGNED. 

The message also announced that the Speaker of the House had 

signed the following emolled bills; and they were thereupon siO'ned 

by the President p1·o tempoTe: o 

A bill (S. No. 486) to extend the act of March 3, 1873, entitled "An 

act for the extension of time to the Saint Pa.ul ao.d Pacific Railroad 

Company for the completion of its road;" 

A bill (S. No. 7d4) authorizing the transfer of gold mint bars·from 

the bullion fund of the assay office, New York, to the assistant treas- urer at New York; 

A bill (H. R. No. 764) for the relief of John Dold; 

A bill (H. R. No. 2797) making appropriations for the payment of 

clainls reported allowed by the commissioners of claims nuder the act · of Con<Tress of larch 3, 1 71 ; 

A bill (H. R. No. 1774) for the relief of Matthias Whitehead· 

A bill (H. R. No. 3257) authorizing the Secretaryof.War to ~ell tiDserviceable ordnance stores, and for other purposes ; 

A b~ (H. R. No. 3282) provi~ng fo-! the collection of moneys due 

the Umted States from the PaCific Railroad Companies· .A. bill (H. R. No. 3354) to legalize entries of public la~ds unuer the 

homestead laws in certain case ; 

-A bill (H. R. No. 2Z70) making an appropriation to pay Emanuel 

Small and Joseph Tate,. of Atchison County, Missouri for carryino- the mail · ' · o 

A. bill ('H. R. No. 3757) for. the appropriation-of twenty condemned 

bronze cannon for the erection of a statue to the late :Major-General 

George Gordon Meade; 

A bill (H. R. No. 1578) for tho relief of Martin Kalbfleisch's sons· A bill (H. R. No. 1370) to authorize the Secretary of the Interlor 

to settle and pay the accounts of William Pelham late smveyorgeneral of New Mexico; ' 

A bill (H. R. No. 3428) to amend an act entitled ''An act to provide 

for the payment of horses n.nd other property lo t or destroyed in the 

military service of the United States," approved March 3 1849 · ~bill (H. R. No. 3431) autho~ing the Secretary of War to'relinqmsh. and .turn over ~o the Inte~10r Department parts of certain re - orvations ill the Terntory of Anzona no longer required for military 

purpose ; 

A bill (H. R. No. 1620) for the relief of John L. J. Jones of Montgomery ~ounty, l\Iary~and, for rent a~d damages sustain~d by the 

d.estructwn of a dwellrng-house by acCidental fire while the same was being occupied by United States troops for quarters · A ~ill (H. R. No. 3163) authorizing the Secretary ~f War to deliver 

certarn condemned ordnance-to the municipal authorities of LexinO'-

ton, J\~assachusetts, for monume.q.tal purposes ; · / o 

A bill (H. R. No. 225) to amend the act entitled "Anact to establish a western judicial district of North Carolina;" · A bill (H. R. No. 2539) relinquishing the riO'hts of the United States 

in certain lands in the State of Michigan; 0 

A bill (H. R. No. 29 ) to provide for the appointment of a commission of eJ?-gineers to investigate and report a permanent plan for the !eclama~on of the alluvial basin of tJ:le Mississippi River subject to 

mundation; 

A bill (H. R. No. 2343) makin&'.appropriations for the current and 

contingent ,expenses of the Ina.ian· Department and for fulfi.llincr 

treaty stipulations with various Indian tribes for the year endin~ June 30, 1875, and for other purposes; ' o 

A bill (H. R. No. 2801) to place on the retired list of the Navv M. 

H. PlJ?lkett, late sec~nd a sistant engineer of the regular Navy;~ 

A bill (H. R. No. 3::>2) for the relief of Colonel E. McCarty· 

A bill (H. R. No. 753) for the relief of PeterS. Patton: · ' 

. A bill_(H. R. ~o.1764) to ap_Propriate lands for the support of schools 

ill certaill fractional-townships ill the State of kfissouri · A bill (H. R. No.1915)toremovethedisabilitiesof Hc~ry H. Sibley a citizen of Fredericks burgh, Virginia; · ' 

A bill (H: R. No. ~787) to pr?vide for the sale of the present uitcc1 

States marrne hospital and site, and the pmchru;e of a now site and 
5336 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 22, 

erection of a new marine hospital in the city of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; 

A bill (H. R. No. 3162) for the relief of settlers on railroad lands; 

A bill (H. R. No. 2797) making appropriations for the payment of 

claims reported allowed by the commissioners of claims under act of 

Congress of March 3, 1871; . · A .bill (H. R. No. 3173) for the relief of James A. McCullah, late 

collector of the fifth district of Missouri; · A bill (H. R. No. 350 ) conferring jurisdiction upon the criminal 

court of the District of Columbia, a.nd for other purposes; 

A bill (H. R. No. 3522) to extend the jurisdiction of the LightHouse Board· · Ajointre oiution (H. R.No. 95) authorizing the Postma~ter-General to perfect title to certain real estate obtained from John W. Norton, a defaUlter to the postal money-order bureau; and 

A joint re. olution (H. R. No. 113) making an appropriation for the 

purchase and restoration to the family of the Marquis de La Fayette 

of the watch presented to him by General Washington. 

EDUCATION REPORT. 

The PRESIDENT pro tem,pore laid before the Senate the a{}tion of 

the Hon e of Representatives non-concurring in the amendment of 

the Senate to the resolution of the House for printing copies of the 

report of the Coromi ioner of Education for 1873. 

Tbe amendment of the Senate was to make the resolution of the 

House read: 

Re~;ol ved, (th.e Senate concurring,) That there be printed five thousand copies of 

tbe report of the Commissioner of Eth.:.cation for 18731 of which twenty-five hundred copies shall be for the use of the Commissioner, apu twentv-five hundred copies a hall be sold at the co t of paper and press-work, with an addition of 10 per cent., 

by the Congressional Printer. 

The Honse non-concurretl iu this amendment and asked for the appointment of a committee of conference. 

Mr. ANTHONY. There is no time for a committee of conference to 

meet and repprt upon a matter of printing. ~think the Senate had 

better settle this question now. The House passed a re olution to 

pri ut twenty thousand copies of tho report of the Commissioner of 

Education. The Senate amended the resolution by providing for 

printing five thousand, one-half for the Commissioner, the other half 

f()r sale at cost and 10 por cent. added. The House has non-concurred 

in that amendml)nt and asks for a conference. The members of the 

Honse are very anxiolli! to have this document printed. The number 

is very l::l.rge, twenty thousand, and that being·much more than the 

Senate have agreed to on any proposition, the Committee on Printing ilid not feel at liberty to recommend it. I would prefer to have 

tho judgment of the Senate upon that, either to concur or non-concllr. 

The PRE IDEN'l'protempore. DoestheSenatorfromRhodelsland 

make a motion f 

1\Ir. ANTHONY. I make a motion JYI'O forrna, to bring the question 

before the Senate, that the Senate recede, the efl:ect of which will be 

to oruer twenty thou and to be printed. 

1\Ir. SHER~IAN. If the Senator will wait until we get the postoffice appropriation bill acted on, I have no doubt the matter will be 

settled readily; but it cannot be done now. Mr. ANTHONY. Let it lie over, then. 

The PRESIDENT pro ternp<Yre. The matter will be laid aside. 

TAX AND TARIFF BILL. 

Mr. SHERMAN. I move now to proceed to the consideration of 

the bill (H. R. No. 3572) to amend existing customs and internal rev- enue laws, and for other purposes, giving notice that I do not intend 

to pres~ any debatable matterY 

Mr. SCHURZ. I would ask the Senator from Ohio whether he 

intends to drop those amendments that were reported by the Committee on Finance Y 

Mr. SHERMAN. 0, J?.O ; not those to which there is no objection. 

The motion was agreed to ; and the Senate, as in Committee of the 

Whole, proceeded to the consideration. of the bill, which bad been 

reported.from the Committee on Finance with amendments. 

The first amendment of the committee was in section 1, line 3, to 

strike out the words " date of the passage. of this act" and insert 30th 

day of June, 187 4 ;" so aa to read: 

Tha~ from and after the 30th day of June, 1874, in lieu of ~e duties heretofore 

impo ed, &c. 

The amendment wa~ agreed to. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Do I understand the Senator from Ohio 

to say that anything to which there is objection is to be passed over or to be discussed Y 

Mr. SHER~IAN. Any matter that gives rise to any considerable 

debate, any more than a passing comment, I propo e shall be stricken 

out. I do not propose at this stage of the se sion to pass in this bill 

any matter on which there is a sub tantial difference of opinion, but 

to save for the revenue on this bill, which came to us so late that we cannot act on it in the usual way, uch matters as give rise to no debate and no controversy. 

THE POST-ROUTE BILL. 

:f)~. RAMSEY. I want to appeal to the Senator from Ohio to give 

way to me to pas the post-route bill. I think it will take but five 

minutes. Let the tariff bill be laid aside informally. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. Is there objection to the proposition 

of the Senator from Minnesota Y 

Mr. SHERMAN. I expect that is the quickest way to satisfy my 

friend from Minnesota. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempo-re. The Senator from Minnesota is 

recognized, and the post-route bill will be taken np. 

The Senate, a in Committee of the Whole, proceeded to consider 

the bill (H. R. No. 3804) to establish certain post-routes. 

Mr. DAVIS. I move to dispense with the reading of the bill. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Is there objection Y 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Yes, sir. No bill shall pas that is not read. 

Mr. R,A.MSEY. I will state that there is nothing in the bill but an enumeration of the post-routes which it provides for. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. I want the Senator to tell the Senato 

what the enumeration is, how much it amounts to, and what service 

it provides for. This is the second installment this session. The first was a very big one. Mr. RAMSEY. I suppose Congress will pass the bill finally. It 

has done so at every session since the Government began. There are about seven hundred routes in the bill. 

Mr. MORRILL; of Maine. I am unwilling on that statement to 

allow the bill to pass. 

Mr. SHERMAN. The reading of this bill being calleu for, I insist on the regular order. 

STATUE OF ADMIRAL FARRAGUT. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. The Chair will state to the Senate 

that a motion was made on Saturday to reconsider the vote by which 

the Sena.te passed the joint resolution (H. R. No. 59) in regard to the 

statue of Admiral F&>rraaut. A motion was made to lay the motion 

to reconsider on the ta.ble, and the Chair is informed that it is the 

universal custom of the Senate when a motion to recon ider is laitl on the table to send the bill to the other House ; but the Senator 

from Vermont [1\!r. MORRILL] gave notice that he would call np this 

motion to rocou ider, and therefore, out of courtesy to him, the ecre- tary has withheld there olution for the present; but unless the Senate act upon it this morning or otherwise instruct the S cretary upon 

it he will, under t.he practice, have to send there olution to the other 

Honse. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. I simply desire to occupy the time of 

the Senate for a few moments in discussing the propriety of this mea ure and showing that there is a vital amendment that ought to 

be propo ed to it. 

Mr. SHERl\lAN. I am quite sure my friend from Vermont will not 

ask that, as he knows about as well as I that the tariff bill should 

not go over for anything of this kind now. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Very well; let the regular order proceed. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. We can settle this mai;tt,r after a while. 

TAX AND TARIFF BILL. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The regular order is before the Senate, being the bill (H. R. No. 3572) to amend exi&ting customs and 

internal-revenue laws, and for other purposes, and the 1·eading will 

be continued. 

The Chief Clerk continued to read the bill. The next amendment 

of the Committee on Finance was in section 1, line 23, after the word 

" over," to insert the words "in value;" so as to 1·ead "25 per cent. 

o1· over in value of cotton, flax, wool, or worsted." 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The amendment will be agreed to 

if there be no objection. The Chair hears none. 1\!r. FRELINGHUYSEN. If this bill is going through at that rate 

I wa.nt to move on the second page, line 21, after the word " ad valm·em," 

to insert: 

On vulcanized India-rubber and all manufactures of the same, not otherwise pro- vided for :15 per cent. ad valorem. 

:Mr. SHERMAN. I object. That raises a very troublesome question. I hope the Senators who look to this bill now will stancl by 

the Committee on Finance and reject all amendments except such a are generally assented to. This is a proposition to introduce the subject of vulcanized rubber, a matter that has not been considered at 

all by the committee of either Honse. If we open any question of 

this kind the Senator from New Jersey will see that the pa~sage of 

the bill now is defeated. 

Mr. -FRELINGHUYSEN. But this part of the bill does change tho 

law and makes 60 per cent. duty on vulcanized Indian-rubber. 

Mr. SHERMAN. I know that. 

l\lr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Then yon are effecting an important 

changein the matter of vulcanized rubber. 

Mr. HERMAN. The law as it is now here is as it is understood in 

the Tre.snry Department and as it was acted upon, but it was reversed 

by an incon iderate decision, as I think, recently, by which the reve- nue ha suffered. This section simply 1·eturns to the law as it was rmderstood. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. The case is this : The Senator moves this 

important 'bill in the last hour of these sion, when the understanding is that no new matter is to be introduccu, and introduce ·a pro- vision by which we increase from 35 to 60 per cent. ad valorem the 

duty on vulcanized rubber. 

Mr. SHER~IAN. I said no new matter other than t.b.at which is 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5337" 

already in the bill as ent to us by the House·of Representatives. .As a matter of course all this ma.y be con itlereu as new mattN'; but we introll.uce nothing; we propose no amendment of the law. 

1\Ir. FRELINGHUYSEN. I will move it to another part of the bill. 

Mr. SHERMAN. This part of the bill has nothing to do with 

rubber, except in connection with silk. Perhaps the Senator is mis- taken about it. When rubber is used in ilk goods, it may come in 

under this duty here :fixed; but certainly tho enator's amendment 

ought not to be introduced here. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Very well. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. The reatling will proceed. 

The Chief Clerk re umed the reading of the bill. The ucxt amendment of the Committee on Finance was to strike out u fiO ' in line 6 of 

section 2, and insert "40 ; " so as to make the clause road : On all still wines importetl in oosk , 40 cents per gallon. 

Mr. SARGENT. I uislike very much to take up time in debate at 

this stage of tho ses ion; l..mt at the same time the provision of the 

House bill is very rea onable in this matter and gives only fair protection to an immense intere t and is in favor of pure wine·. The 

section of the Hou ·e bill interests not only Calif rnia but Ohio and 

many other States where the American wine interest is growing to 

be a very important industry, and more especinlly is it important in 

my State where our hills are covererl. with Lhe finest vineyards aml 

where our processes for ma,king wine are improvin(l' every year. I 

really hope that the amendment of the committee wfu be withdrawn 

and that we may stand on the House bill. Only the exigeucy of this 

being the last clay of the session preveuts me urging the case at greater 

len~h. 

:Mr. SHERMAN. I will state briefly to the Senate the whole of this 

matt-er. The pre ent mte of duty actually collected on nearly all the 

wine imported into this country is 25 cents. It is a kind of specific 

and compound specific and acl valorem, duty. That duty is very much 

evaded, and out of 8,000,000 gallons· of wine imported, I think 6,000,000 come in at the rate of 25 cents. This is an increase of the duty on still wines and makes it uniform at 40 cent a gallon; and therefore 

it is largely in favor of the Ca-lifornia and Ohio wine interest represented by the Senator from California and partly by my elf. Tbis wa satisfa-ctory to both sides. The trade desires a specific dnty on all wines; and after the most careful examination and hearing both 

sides, both the wine-makers of the country and the wine importm , the committee decided to fix it at 40 cents. And we understood all were satisfied. We are a ured that if the duty is put up to 50 cents a ~allon, it will prohibit a large portion of wine now introducell, thus 

rea.ucing the revenue instead of increasing it. The section a-s it now stands will give us perhaps $1,000,000 more revenue from wino, and we regard it as the most important feature of this bill. 

Mr. SARGENT. I ask my fl'iend whether, this being a specific duty 

of 40 cents, there is not an opportunity to bring in wines heavily 

charged with alcohol and distill them into branuyf 

Mr. SHERMAN. The Senator will see that the clause here provided is: 

Provided, That any wines imported cont."lining more than 24 per cent. of alcohol 

shall be forfeited to the United States. 

Ir. SARGENT. I think this is a great relief, so far as it goes; but 

the amendment doe not go quite so far as I want. I withdraw my 

objection, however, considering that it is some relief. 

Tbe amendment w~ agreed to. The next amendment of the Committee on Finance wa-s in section 

2, line 8, to strike out '' 2" and insert " 1.60 ;" so as to rea-d: 

On all still wines imported in bottles, 1.60 per case of one dozen bottles, &c. 

Mr. SHERMAN. That is part of the same matter. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The next amendment of the Committee on Finance was in section 

2, lines 18 to 23, inclusive, to strike out tbe following proviso : 

Provided, al8o, That there sh..'tll ue an allowance of 2 per cent. for lea~e on the 

quantity which shall appear by the ga~ge to be contained in any cask of wmes, and 

5 per cent. on all wines, liquors, cordials, and distilled spirits in bottles, tQ .be deducted from the invoice quantity in lieu of breakage. . 

· The amendment wa agreed to. 

The next amendment was to strike out line 8 of section 34 in the 

following words: 

On hops, 10 cents per pound. . 

Mr. FERRY, of Michigan. I hope this amendment will not be con- curred in. I am not disposed to debate the question at this time. It 

would be nnrea onable to do so. We aro raising hops to some exteut, 

and 1mder the present .tariff of 5 per cent. that interest is not protecto<.l sufficiently, and the hop-growers feel as though in view of the 

largp importations tbeTc honld be an increa e of the tariff. l\lr. SHERMAN. I can only say that the pre ent duty on hops is 

5 cent a pouml, not 5 per cent. That is equ.i valent to about 33 per 

ce11t. on hop. . If the people of our country cannot raise hops with a proteetiou of 33 per cent., I think it is perfect folly for u.s to talk 

about protecting them. We heartl both sides and we thought the 

duty on hops ought to stand as it is, 5 cents a pound. 

Mr. FERRY, of Michigan. I call tbe Senator's attention to the 

p:)int he bas made that both sitles were heard. He will remember 

that tlwre \Ye1·e parties who wished to be heard, and on account of 

the Rhonness of time t lley we1·e excluded. 

Mr. SHER:\IAN. I think the Senator himself represented one side vorv well. 

Mr. FERR--Y, of Micbigan. I was merely reflecting others. I am not a grower of hops myself, nor a drinker of hop brewed, distilled, or otherwise. I was only I·ep1·esentin~ the vi.ews of others, and I think 

the chairman will bear me out in tne statement that X persisted in 

havi.ng the otber side heard. 

Mr. SHERMAN. Yes. 

Mr. FERRY, of Michigan. The brewers and distillers of hops were beard largely, and I thought it wa-s nothing more than fair that the 

growers should be heard. I hope that the amendment will be non- concurred in. Ur. SHERMAN. I represent an agricultural State which grows some hops; and if we cannot compete in that simply agricultural 

product 'vith a protective duty of 33 per cent., I think we ought to 

give up the raising of hops. We did hear the brewers who were very 

much opposed to this increase, and I thought we had heard the other 

side. However, the whole matter is in a nut-shell. Is not 33 per 

cent. a sufficient duty on bops¥ 

:Mr. WRIGHT. I only desire to say that there were two sides to 

tho question in the committee, as the chairman will remember, and I 

desire that the vote ball be taken on the single proposition wbetber we shall strike out this item or not. It will be remembered that some members of the committee insisted on retaining the clause as it is. I . am among that number. 

Mr. CHA~l)LER. I hope the amendment will not be concurred 

in. Tbere is no rea on on earth why a.ll the hops required for use in 

the United States should not be raised in this country. I hope the 

amendment will not be conctured in, but that the duty will remain 

at the rate :fixed by the House. 

The P:R.E !DENT pro tempore. The question is on the amendment 

of the Committee on Finance. 

Mr. BAYARD. The present duty even of 5 cents per pound on hops is very heavy when rated in ad valorent. It amounts, I tbink, to 

something like 35 or 40 per c nt. ~11'. SHER~IAN. The value of the hops I think is somewhere from 

10 to 15 cents in gold. The duty is 5 cents a pound. 

Mr. BAYARD. I do not propose to detain the Sonate, for I feel 

that to undertake the discussion of a bill of this character at this hour 

would be, to say the least, impracticable, if not impossible. Nevertheless where a propo ition is made to double the duty upou an article of such large and general consumption, and in o important a branch of the manufactures of the country, upon which the exc ~e 

duties depend so largely, it is a very serious question for the Senate 

to undertake to double that duty. You have now a dPty of more than the average of the ta:riff on this article of .American production; 

and in the fa-ce of that large duty you exported in the la t fivo years a very large amount of hops. The exportation reached, I think, in 

the year 1871 or 1872 nearly seventeen million pounll.s. It is an ell or- mons article of export. You therefore have the absurdity of a coun- try able to export a very large amount of a commodity propo ing to 

raise the duty on it, when it is simply and purely an int,erference 

with a business on which our excise revenue largoly depends. I have not at this moment, not anticipating this discus ion, the 

tables of the exports of hops from the United States for the last five 

years; but I can say with confidence to the Senate that they have 

been very large; and in the face of our having an oversupply that we send t.o (\ther countries, it is proposed now, without reason, to 

double the duty I 

Mr. Presill.ent, the article of hops enters largely into, and its chief 

consumption is in, the production of malt liquor . Th e malt liquors 

form a very large and very useful and as compared with other drinks 

harmless portion of the beverages of the country. The revenue of the 

Government to-day from the item of malt liquors alone amounts to 

about 9,000,000 a year. Do Senators propose hastily to interfere "\vith a buisne s of this magnitude Do they propose to interfere with a business which is taxed, and one of the leading article of taxation 

in the cotmtry, and without any reason in the world, RS I have shown, 

to double the duty on an article so universally used and prodn.ccd in 

this country to such an extent that the surplus must be exported antl 

is exported in larrre quantities every year¥ \Vhat can be tho mean- ing o~ such a tax·r Nay, further, let us look at this subject in another 

way. The Senate has lately been made the scene of a disc ion in 

respect to the ma.tter of temperance. The abuse of alcoholic stim.- ulants has been made the subject of grave congre ional investiga- tion. Any man who ha · consill.ered the subject with that interest 

wbich I trust we all feel must be satisfied that one of the best stops 

toward a 1·efm·mation of this alleged abuse is the substitution of a milder stimulant; ancl the use of the lighter beer::; and malt liquors 

is to beencouraged, in my opinion, and not to be discouraged. 

I am not dispo ed, however, to treat this in the light of a sumptuary 

law; I dislike by law to invade the domain of morals and of individual taste; but I merely will Ray that upon the plaine t grounds of 

political economy the impo ition of a double tax, making it equi va--. lent to about 70 per cent. ad valorem, upon an article entering into con umption so widely as does the article of hops, an article produced so abundantly by our soil, strikes me as being not only unwiso, not 

only without warrant, but in every respect in which it can be viewed 

l.righly prejudicial. 

I understood from that cla s of our citizens largely engaged in the 
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 22 ' 

consumption of hops that the hops imported are some from Austria 

and from Italy, and that ther e are certain kinds of beer made in this 

country which require a small amount of the infusion of the flavor 

of foreign hops in order to uit the taste of the public. Of course, as the Senator from Ohio reminds me, the great bulk of the hops 

used in this country is of American growth. I cannot tell precisely 

the proportion, but the enormous majority of the hops used is of 

American growth. We cultivate enough for that purpose, and the 

hi tory of the last five years shows t.ha,t our hop-growers have abundant protection. 

On every ~round I hope the action of the Committee on Finance 

will be sustamed, and that this excessive increase of duty, so unneces- sa.ry in point of revenue and so absurdly unnecessary on the ground 

of what is called protection, may not be favored by the Senate, but 

that tlle amendment reported by the Committee on Finance will re- ceive tbe approbation of the Senate. 

fr. SCHURZ. I think it must be clear to every one that if this bill 

is to 11ass it must pass without much discussion; and that can be ac- complished onJy in one way, and thn.t is by adopting all the n.mend- ments as they are reported by the committee. There are in this bm 

many good things and a great many things which I would not assent 

to. But as soon as the amendments of the committee are once interfered with then i give notice that I shall move a number of amend- ments, which undoubtedly will cause debate. 

A.s far as this amendment is concerned, it must be clear to every 

nnprejudiced .man in the country that if the hop culture cannot flourish with a protection of 33 per cent. in its favor, it ought not to flourish. 

A. large quantity of hops is imported for one very good reason, because 

hops of those varieties are nceded. The hop culture can be stimulated 

in no better way than by importing foreign hops so far as is necessary 

forthe.purpose of improving the cultivation here. I hope the amendment will be made. 

Mr. FERRY, of Michigan. I-do not wish to discuss the question; 

but out of compliment to the House of Representatives, the popular 

bra11ch that reflects the wi.U of the people, I feel as though my vote 

ought to be in accord with its action. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o mp~r . The question is ou the amendment 

of the Committee on Finance. The question being put, there were, on a, divisiou-ayes 30, noes 16. ·Mr. ·wRIGHT. I think we had better have the yeas and nays. 

The yeas and nays were ordered; and being taken, resulted- yeas 

33, nn.ys 14; as follows: · . 

YEAS-Messrs. Alcom~,.....Ba ard, Bogy, Boutwell, Cooper, Davis, Flanagan, Frelinghuyson, Goldthwaite, J:tager, !Iamilton of :Maryland, Hamil on of Texas, Hamlin, Ingalls, K elly, McCreery, Merrimon, Morrill of Maine, Morton, Norwood, Ran- som, Robertson, Sargent~ Saulsbury, Schurz, Sherman, Sprague, Stevenson, Stock- ton, Tipton, Washburn, West, and 'Vindom-33. :rAYS-Messrs. Anthony, C:trpenter, Chandler, Clayton, Conover, Edmunds, 

F erry of Michigan, Gilbert, Howe, Mitchell, Oglesby, Pratt, Wadleigh, and 

Wril!htr-14. 

AB ' ENT-Messrs. Allison, Boreman, Brownlow, Buckingham., Cameron, Conkling, Cragin, Denn}.s, Dorse_y, F enton, Ferry of Connecticut, Gordon, Harvey, lUtehcock, Johnston, Jones, Lewis, LQ~an, :Morrill of Vermont, Patterson, Pease, r..amsoy, Scott, Spencer, Stewart, and Tnurman-26. 

.. So the amendment was agreed to. 

The next amendment of the Committee on Finance was in section 

4, line 9, after "four" to strike out "and a half;" so as to read: 

On chromate and bichromate of potassa, 4 cents per pound. 

The. amendment was agreed to. 

The next amendment was in section 4, line 11, after ''vermicelli," 

to strike out "3 cents per pound" and insert "and" before "on," and 

after "on" insert the words "all similar," and after "preparations" 

sti·ike out "similar thereto, 2," and insert "2; " so that the clause 

will read: 

on· macaroni and vermicelli and on all similar preparations, two cents pet· pound. 

The amendment was agreecl to. 

The next amendment was in section 4, line 16, before the word 

"cents" _to strike out "quarter" and insert "tenth;" so that tho 

clause will read: 

On tin in plates or sheets and on terne and tagger's tin, 1.1 cents per pound. 

The amendment was agreed t.o. 

The next amendment W3.8 in section 4, line 22, to strike out "onehalf," n.nd insert "five-ei~hths," and in line 25 to strike out" one- eigh th," n.nd insert "one-half;" so as to read: 

On anchovies and sardines, packed in oil or otherwise, in tin boxes, 15 cents per whole box, measuring not moreth.'tnfive inches long, four inches wide, and three and one-hill inches <feep; 7! cents for each half-box, measuring not more than five 

inches long, four inches wide, andone and five-eighths inches deep; and 4 cents for nacll quarter-box, measuring not more than four inches and three-quarters long, thr and one-half inches wide, and one and one-half inches deep; when imported in any othor form, 60 per cent. ad vawrem. 

The a,mendment was agreed to. 

The next amendment was to add to section 4 the following proviso: 

Provided, That cans or packages made of tin or other material containin"' fish of 

any kind admitted free of duty under any existing law or treaty, not excee~gone q na.rt in contents, shall be subject to a duty of 1! cents on eaeh can or packa""e; and when exceeding one quart, shall besnbjectto an additional duty of 1! cents 'for 

each additional quart, or fractional part thereof. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The next amendment of the Committee on Fnance was to strike 

out the following proviso at the end of section 7 : 

Andp7·ovidedjurtlter, That bags other than of American manufacture in which 

g-rain shall l1ave been actually exported from the United States may be returned to · the United States free of duty under regulations to be pre cribed by' the Secret:rry of 

the Treasury. 

. ]\Ir. SARGENT. Before the question is put on striking out that proVIso, I move to insert after the word ;, returned/' in line 9, the word 

"empty;" so that it ma.y reall: 

That bags other than of American m:mufactill' , in which grain sha-ll have been actually exported from the United States, may be returned empty to the United 

States free of duty, &c. 

:Mr. SHERMAN. There is no objection to thn.t because they would 

have to be returned of course. Mr. SARGENT. The proviso relates to grain-bags of foreign mau- ufacture which have once oeen imported into the United States and 

paid duty. They are used to ship grain to the Liverpool market aml 

to other foreign places. The yare used by the million in shipment fi·om 

the Pacific coost. We cannot ship in bulk on account of shiftincr the 

cargo and sweating the cargo, and so we have to resort to the ;cry 

expensive process of using gmin-bags. The House of Re:preseuta.-

tives provided that t.hese bags might be returned 1mder regulations 

of the Secretary of j;he Treasury without· paying the duty over aml over again. That clause we desire to h:.tve retained, and there are abundant precedents for it heretofore; M, for instn.nce, petroleum 

casks are allowed to be returned free of duty a. second time. I want 

to put in the word "empty," so as to remove any fear that they might 

be returned with something else; a.nd then I Mk that the amendment 

of the committee be not concurred in, but that the proviso remain. 

The amendment of the committee is to . strike out the proviso that 

the bags may be returned free of duty. 

Mr.l'RELINGHUYSEN. I should like to know from the Senator 

from California or from tho Senator from Ohio why jute-butts should 

not be on the free list ' 

Mr. SARGENT. I should be very happy indeed, on account of the 

enormoUB interest of my people in this matter, to have them on the 

free list; but I have not urged that on account of the condition of 

the revenue. To do that would be :J.u enormous relief to our people, 

I admit. If I could hope that the Houses would agree to a provision 

of that kind I certainly would urge it; but me~nwhile I take wlln.t 

I can reasonably get, and I therefore ask that we be allowed to re- turn these grain-bags withont pn.ying duty for the second anll third 

time and over and over again. I have no doubt that the Secretary 

of the Trea.sury can make the same regulations in the matter of gminbags that he does in the matter of petroleum casks and other matters tQ prevent any fraud on the revenue. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I understand that the article provided 

for in this seventh se~tion is not grown in this country at all, and it 

does not need any protection, and it would be a, great relief if it were placed on the free list. Mr. SHERMAN. The que tion now before us is whether grainbags being sent abroad with grain in them shall be returned duty 

free. The committee struck out the proviso, having a great deal of 

doubt about it, but I do not myself see any objection to allowing the e grain bag~ when they are returned empty, to come in free of duty. Mr. FR..(!.;LINGHUYSEN. A.s I understand it, the question before 

o:J.be Senate is the adoption of the seventh section of the bill. 

Mr. SHERMAN. Not at all. The·question is on the amendment of 

the committee strikino- out the proviso, and that is a question every 

Senn.tor can form a judgment upon at once, whether ba~s thn.t- have once paid duty and gone abroad with American produce m them shall 

be returned duty free. The committee thought the proviso ought to 

be stricken out; but as far as I am concerned I think it a doubtful 

question. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tmnporc. The question is on the amendment 

of the Senator from California. 

l\1r. SARGENT. I believe I have said all! desire to say upon it. I 

do not want to take up tiine in debate. I trust the Senate will stand 

with me. It is the plainest provision in the bill. 

Mr. SHERMAN. The word "empty" .is inserted. Mr. SARGENT. Yes, sir. Mr. SHERMAN. It is due to the committee to state that the rea- son why they proposed to strike out this proviso was because of 

the absolute impossibility of identifying the bags and ' ascertaining 

whether or not they were the same bags, and of preventing fraud on the revenue by allowing all bags to be admitted duty free. The Sena- tor from. California will see, if he will look at ~:>ection 9, that wo provide "that barrels and grain-ba~s, the manufacture of the Uniteu 

States, when exported filled with American product , or export d 

empty and returned filled with foreign products, ma.y be returned to 

the United States free of duty." 

l\Ir. SARGENT. But those made in the United States are only a small part, a. mere drop in the bucket, a:s compared with the nlllllber 

used. The great bulk of them we have to import from Dundee. 

Mr. SHERMAN. The great difficulty is in identifying the particular 

bag .. Mr. SARGENT. There is not ;my more difficulty in the case of bags 

of foreign manufacture than in the case of bags of domestic manufacture. At any rate, the Secretary of the Treasury can prescribe the 

necessary regulations, and I should like to try the experiment of 

admitting these bags duty free. 

Mr. SHERMAN. T1iey can tell in a moment the difference between 

a home-manufactur~~ and a foreign bag. 
1874 . . CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5339 

Mr. IIA.GER. I want to call the attention of the Senator from 

Ohio to the ninth ection, which he referred to. It does not meet 

the case at all. The bags provided for there must be returned filled 

with foreign products. We wish to have the return of bags empty merely for the grain trade of California. We do not want to be 

rel]_uired to bring them back filled with foreign articles, but we desire to have the privilege of returning the bags empty for the grain 

trade of California. That is a very important thing. The provision as it stands in section 7--

Mr. SHERMAN. If a bag is exported filled with American products, 

i b may be returned either empty or filled. 

Mr. HAGER. No; the language is "returned filled with foreign 

products may be returned to the United States free of duty." They 

must be filled with foreign products. We wish to have the privilege 

of returnino- 'them empty. · That is not provided for in section 9. 

Therefore {hope section 7 will stand as it is. They can be returned nnuer consular certificate without any difficulty at all. I hope the 

amendment of the committee will not be agreed to. 

Mr. SHERMAN. The Senator is mistaken. Section 9 reads as follows : 

That barrels and grain-bags, the manufacture of the United States, when ex· ported filled with American products, or e~rted empty and returned filled with 

foreign products, may be returned to the Umted States free of duty. 

In either case they may be brought in. 

Mr. HAGER. If the Senator will consent to amend section 7 by 

inserting after the words "United States" -the words "or upon which 

duties have once been paid to the United States," I have no objection; 

lmt there is no necessity of paying duties twice on these grain-bags. It i~:~ a hardship and unjust to impose a double tax upon the people of 

California in theix: efforts to maintain their relations with foreign 

countries in the exportation of grain. • :Mr. BAYARD. I must confess that I think the amendment of the 

Senator from California [Mr. SARGENT] to the clause proposed to be 

stricken out would be a proper one, and if it should be adopted I 

think we should disagree to the amendment of the committee striking 

out the provi o. When these grain-bags have once paid their duty 

and the Government has recei ed its revenue from -them, it is simply 

another illustration of the embarrassment of trade and commerce to 

say that when they come in again empty or used in the way they were first brought in, tbey shall be subjected to a second tax. Section 9, which has been 1·eferred to, provides that grain-bags of Ameri- can manufacture, when exported filled wit.h American products, or exported empty and then filled with the produce of other countries, 

sh:tll not be taxed. If -a man has once paid -the duty on an imported 

article to the Government, why should it not be for all intents and 

pmpo es the same a-s if it were an American manufacture t If the 

tluty has once been paiu, why should it be taxed a second time' 

The provision a it now stands is rather a facility to commerce, and we need all our facilities to commerce, especially in regard to our exports. No embarrassment should bethrown around them. I trust 

therefore that the motion of the Senator from California will prevail, that we shall amend this section so as to provide that these grainbags may be returned empty, and then that the section may be re- tained in the bill n.s the House pa sed it. 

Mr. SPRAGUE. I desire to state to the Senate -that if the amendment of the committee is not agreed to by the Senate, in my judgment not a year will pass before every manufacturer of grain-bags 

in the United States will be prostrated. In addition to the present 

competition you introduce a new element ; and under such loose provisions as the e new bags as w~ll as old ones will inevitably come in, and the result will be the destruction of this branch of industry. 

I speak not in the interest of the constituents whom I immediately represent, but there are grain-bag manufacturers throughout the 

United State, and this provision of the bill will in my judgment 

evidently pro ·trate that employment. Mr. STEWART. This repetition of tariffs on grain-bags is very 

much embarrassing the agricultural pursuit-s of the Paci$c coast. 

The grain there is hipped in bags altogether, while here you ship in 

lJnlk to a great extent. It is suggested that if we retain this proviso 

and pay the duty on grain-bags but once it will embarrass the man- nfacture of grain-bags. Now, I submit that it is equally important 

to refmin from embarras ing wheat-growing as manufacturing grainhng. . It is quite as important an interest, and I cannot see any justice or propricty iu embarra sing the great wheat-growing interest of the 

country for the simple purpose of building up manufactures and sus- taining them. It eems to me unjust to impo e a tariff to such an extent 

for such a reason, which falls directly on prouuction, limits production, 

limits exportation, limits your revenues, and limits your commerce. Wheat-groWing is carried on to the very verge of bankruptcy on the 

part of those who are producing wheat. They do it as long as they can live by it; and the slightest burden imposed upon them operates 

to desbroy the production of wheat. It seems to me if they pay duty once on their bags they shonld not be required to pay it a second time. 

li you say this provision cannot be executed, that the Government 

officer cannot determine whether they are the same bags or not, then 

I ay the great wheat-growing interest demands tlliJ,t this duty on grain-bags should be removed altogether, and it will have to be done. If this proviso cannot be executed Congress will be certain, in view 

of this oppresive bmden upon wheat-growing, to remove the duty altogether. _ 

Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. In the committee I voted to retain 

this proviso, which is now desired to be retained by the Senator from 

California. It seems to me that it is carrying the doctrine of protection to an unreasonable extent to ask that, after an article has onco paid duty aud come in here, it hall not then stand on an equal .footing with American manufactures. I would no more make a discrimination against an article after it has paid a duty and been once admitted here, than I would make a discrimination against-a naturalized citizen coming in again from abroad. .Now, it is proposed to allow American bags to be exported andreimported without duty, but tbat we shall not allow foreign bags to 

be exported ana rebnported without duty. The Secretary of the 

Trea ury is to prescribe regulations under which this is to be (lone. 

If he can prescribe regulations unuer which he will know whether~ 

bag is an American bag or not, there is no more difficulty in prescribing regulations by which a foreign-made bag can be kuO\Tll. 

Therefore it seems to me unreason.'tble for us to stickle in the bark 

in relation to this proposition of the House. I shall vote for it. 

Mr. SARGENT. Let us have a. vote. 

Mr. SPRAGUE. If the agriculturists of this country desire to ex- tend the markets from whence they will derive their neces ary articles three thousand or four thousand miles, then they are at perfect 

liberty to adopt a proposition of this sort; but I tell them they are injuring themselves at the same time, that they inevitably de troy one important branch of industry in the United States. 

Mr. SARGENT. The amendment of the committee is to strike ont 

the proviso. We want that voted down. The PRESIDING OFFICER, (Mr. ANTHONY in the chair.) The 

Chair understood the Senator from California to move to insert the 

word "empty." 

Mr. SARGENT. That was put in wit.hout objection. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Then the question is on agreeing to 

the amendment as reported by the committee, to strike out the proviso to the seventh section. 

The amendment wa rejected. . Mr. BAYARD. I desire to offer the following amendment to that 

section--

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The amendments of the committee 

have not yet been completed. 

Mr. BAYARD. It will shorten the que tion to clispo e of it now. I merely de ire a vote upon it. The PRESIDING OFFICER. It is in order to proceed :first with 

the amendment of the committee. The Chair will receive the amendment of the Senator from Delaware by unanimous consent. Mr. SHERMAN. I must insist on the regular order-on this bill 

especially. The Senator can ofter his amendment afterward. Mr. BAYARD. Very well. 

The Chief Clerk resumed the r eading of the bill, as follows : 

SEC. 8. That on ltnd after the date of the passage of this act the importation of 

the articles enumemted 'l>ncl described in this section sh:ill be exempt from duty; that is to sa.yMr. SHERMAN. I desire to insert the words ''from and after the 

30th d\ly of June, 1874," in lieu of the words 11 on and after the date 

of the P' age of this act." I move that amendment. The amendment was agreed to. 

The next amendment of the Committee on Finance wa.s in section 

8, line 6, to strike out from the free listPe:ts exclusively for seed purposes. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The next amendment was in section 8, line 7, to strike from t.he 

free list ''quicksilver." 

Mr. STEW ART. I hope that will not be done. Tho price of quick- silver is enormously high, so much so that it is becoming almo t an embargo on the production of precious metals and no revenues are derived. from it. The otl.ly effect of the duty is to keep up the price, 

which h·as got now so very high that it is almost destructive to a great interest. There is no reason for puttin~ a tariff on quicksilver. :Mr. SHERMAN. Upon representations ma-a.e to the Committee on. Finance we concluded, upon a bearing, that it was best not to put 

quicksilver on the free list, but to leave it where it is now. If, however, the Senators from California, where this quicksilver is produc d 

and consumed, say to us that they think on the whole it ought to be on the free list, I for one am disposed to change my vote. 

Mr. HAGER. California produces quicksilver and it is used in ex.- tracting gold' and silver from the quartz in the Sta.tes of California 

and Nevada and in the Territory of Utah. It is very extensively -used and it is extensively produced in California; but there is now an existing monopoly, that is to say, the European producers of quicksilver have entered into a combination with the producers in America 

by which the prke is put so high as almost to make it nece ary to 

resort to some other process. 

Mr. SHERMAN. I will ask the Senator from California if he and 

his colleagues on the Pacific coast desire quicksilver to be placed on the free list Y 

Mr. HAGER. Yes, sir; I believeallof usonthe Paciilc coastfavor 

putting it on the free list in order to relieve ourselves from the difficulty in which we are placed at this time. _ The amendment was rejected. 

The next amendment of the Committee on Finance was in section 
5340 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 22, 

9, line 1, to insert t he word "and" ·between "barrels" and "grain- uacr ;" and after the word "include," in line 7, to st:rik~ out "boxes, ba~rcls, exported in shooks," and insert ''shooks" when returned as barrels or boxes a-~ afores:.Ud; " so that the section will read : 

SEc. 9. That ba~Tels aml bags, the ma.nufa{)ture of the United Sta.tes, when 

exported filled with .Amencan products, m· exported empty and returned filled 

with foreign products1 may be returned to the United States free of duty, under 

such rules ancl regulations as shall be prescribed by the Secret.'try of the Treasury; 

and the provisions of this section shall apply to and include shooks, when returned as barrels or boxes as aforesaid. 

The amendment was agreed to. The next amendment was in section 11, after the word " oaths," in 

line 4, to strike out "to such collector wit bin three months" and 

insert "generally ; " after the word "generally" insert " and; ~' and 

in line 7 to strike out "Comptroller of the Treasury" and msert 

"Commissioner of Customs;" so as to read: 

That the oaths now required to be taken by subordinate officers of the customs may be taken before the collector of the customs in tho district in whic-h they are appointed, or before any otli~er aut-horized to auminister.oa~hs generally; !l'n~l the 

oaths shall be t.'tkon in il.uplicate, one copy to be transiDI~d to the CoiDIDIS~lOJ!er 

of Customs, anil. the other to be file:l with the collector of customs for t.he district 

in which the officer appoint.ed a{)ts, &c. 

The amendment was agreed to. The next amendment was in the proviso to ection 13, line 15, after 

the word "collected" to strike ont ·'or from other circumstances," 

and after the word "allowances," in line 17, to insert "but no such 

allowance shall be maUe except within one year after such services are rewloretl ;" so as to read:· 

Provided, That the Secretary of the Treasury, on the recommendation of the 

Collllllissioner of Internal Revenue, ue authorized to make such further allowances, 

from time to time, as may be reasonable, in cas~ in which, from the territorial ex- tent of tho rlistrict, or from the amount of internal dutios collected, it may seem just to make snch allowances; but no such allowance shall be made except within one year aftor su?h services are rendered. 

The amenumeut W< agreed to. Tlle next amcll!lmcut W:l.S in section 16, line 10, after the woril 

"not" to insert "less than ~100 nor;" antl in line 12, aft.er the word 

' not" to insert "less than thirty days;" so as to r ead : 

That any p rson who sh~~ll carry on the umliuess of a rectifier, wholesale liquor 

dealer, retail liquor dealer. wholesale dealer in malt liquors, retail dealer in malt 

Jiqnors, or ma.uufacturor of stills, without having l,:>:'~>itl tlu special tax: as 1·equired by law. or who shall carry on tlte i.Jusiness of a ills tiller without having given bond as required by law, or who shall en~age in or carry on the businuss of a distiller 

wit.h intent to defraud the Unito<l 8tates trf the ta.x on the spirits ilistill d by him, or acy part thereof, shall, for every such offons , be fiuetl not le s than 100 nor ruoro tllan $5,000, and imprisonetl not le s than t.hirty days nor more than two years. 

The amendment W <.t! agreed to. The next amendment was in section 113, line 33, after the word 

"packages," to trike out "where uch assessments "-ere," and in line 

36, after the word ''amended," to striKe out "made;" so as to read: 

Provided fnrther, That anv a essments of :t-dcliti~nal special tax against wholesale liquor dealers or rotail.llquor dealers, or again t brew_ors for ~e~g malt 

liquor·s of their own prolluction at the pla{)e of manufacture rn the ongmal casks or packages, maue by reason of an amendment t<? section 59 of t-bo interual-re>enue act approved July 20, 186 1 as amended by ectwn 13 of tho a-ct approvod June 6, 

1872, further amending smd section 5~ by stri!rl-ng ont the words "malt liquort" '·malt liquors," "brewer," and "malt liquors" m. tl.le three several paragraphs 1n 

which they occur, shall be, on proper proofs, reiDitted. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The next amendment was to strike out section 23, as follows : 

SEc. 23. That all acts and parts of acts impo ing fine , penalties, or other puni h- ment for offenses committed by an internal-re>enue officer or other officer of the 

Department of the Treasury ot the. United States, or under any Bnrean thereof, 

shall be, and are hereby, applied to all per ons whomsoever, employed, appointed, or acting under the authority of any internal-revenue or customs law, or any rev- enue provision of any law of the United States, whether such persons are designated as otficers or other,vise. 

The amendment was agreed to. The next amendment wa-s to trike out ecuon 24, as follows; 

SJ>e. 24. That from and after the passage of t.his act any farmer or planter ma.v sell, at the place of production, t-obacco of his own growth and raising at retail 

directly to consumers to au amount not {'XCeeding 100 an1mally, subject to such rules 

and regulations as may be prescribed by the Commis ioner of Internal Revenue. 

Mr. MERRUION. I trust this section will not be stricken out. 

The internal revonue at best operates very harshly upon the produ- cers in the tobacco-growing sections, and it would be very hard if they 

could not sell a. few pounds of tobacco wjthout paying a tax. I do 

not care to discuss it; but on concmring in that amendment I call 

for the yea and nays. . Mr. SHER~IAN. I cn.ll the attention of the Senate to this section. If it is retained, as a matter of course it will il.efeat this bill. The 

object of the bill is merely to clear certain difficulties which have 

arisen in the administration of the tariff and internal-revenue laws. This section, which was inserted in the House of Representatives 

again t t.he advice of the Committee on Ways and Means, allows 

every man at every farm, at every cabin, to raise "100 worth of to- uacco and ell it without regard to law. The passao-e of that section 

woulll, in my judgment, lose us eight or ten million dollars of tob:tcco 

tax. 'l'hat wa tl1e sta.tement made to us by manufacturers of tobacco 

in Virginia and mannfactnrers all over the conntry. The £I'Oposition 

to a1low any per on to sell of his own growth or raising $100 worth 

of tobacco annually without any tax whatever, without being re- qn:ired to pay a.ny tax, would, in the opinion of the tobacco manufacturers, and I think of all intelligent persons who have examined tho 

subject, actually destroy the tax on tobacco, which now yields us twenty-five or thirty million dollars. I have no doubt we should 

lose from five to ten million dollars of revenue. Therefore if you 

want to collect the present large tax on tobacco yon must extend it 

to all. The provjsions of the old law are ample to enable every per- son who raises it to sell it to licensed dealers, ancl thc•ro i am11lo com- petition all over the country. This section no doubt would boa. great 

convenience to persons "ho raise small quantities of tobacco, by 

allowing them to sell it for the use and con umption of their own neighborhood. But there is no reason for it, and it eff~ct would bo 

absolutely destructive of the whole touacco t:tx. I think I have said enough to direct the attention of Senators to 

the importance of this section nnd the nece ity of striking it out. 

The Commissioner of Internal Revenue supposed as a matter of course this would be stricken out; but he said if this section wore adoptc<l 

it would very greatly impair the tobacco tax, and the harm done by 

this sccLion would be ten tjmes more than the good that woulcl be 

secured by the passage of this bill. 

Mr. MERRD10N. I think if the internal-revenue officers would see the law properly executed the difficulty that the enato:r anticipate would not arise. I am the more aiL.uou for the ailoption of 

this section because this provision of the internal-r venue law in my 

country is more odious than any other. The people reo-ard it as a very great and intolerable burden. I think the Government loses a vast deal of its revenue growing out of the fact that there i no excep- tion of thts 1:1ort. l do not care to discuss the question. I simply call 

for the yeas and nays upon it. 

The yeas and nays were ordered; and being taken, resulted- yeas 

33, nays 10 ; as follows : 

YEA.S--Me~srs . .Anthony, Bayard, Boutwell, Buckingham, Chanillor, Clayton, 

Conover, Davis, Fenton, Forry of l\Iichirran, Flanagan, Froliuglmysen, Hager, Hamilton of Maryland, Hamlin, Howe, Ingalls, Mitol1ell, Monill of V rmont, lor- ton, 0Pl6l by, Poase. Pratt, Ram ey, cott, Sherman, Sprague, Stockton, Wailloigh, Wa bourn, We~t, \Vindom, :md Wright----33. 

NAYS-Mes:;rs. llogy, Cooper, Go1dthwaite, Kelly, McCreery, Morrimou, Norwood, Ransom, Robertson, anu a.ul bury- 10. 

ABSENT-Messr . . Alcorn, Allison Bort>man, Brownlow, Cameron, C:1rp nter, 

Conkling, Cragin, Dcnni.'l, Dorsey, E~mtmds, ForTy of Connecticut, Gilbort., Gorllon, Hamilton of Texas, Harvey, Hitchcock, Johnston, Jonc , Lewis, LOJ!an, Morrill of Maine, Patterson, Sargent, Schurz, Spencer, Stevenson, Stewart~ Thurman, 

and Tipton-30. 

So the amendment was acrre~d to. The next amm1dmcnt was to strike out section 25, a-s follows : 

SEc. 25. That upon all manufactured tobacco exported nnrler the provisions of 

any act of Con !IT' , the manufacturer exporting the same shall be cntitlell to a tlrawback equ;j to the amount of duties which shall be shown to have boon paid 

upon imported licorice which l1a entered into the manufacture thoreof; anc the 

quantitv so used in snch maunfactnre shall, unil.er rules and r gnlations to be prc- scribed'uy th~ Commissi'lner of Internal Re>enue and approverl by the Secretary of the Treasury bo ascertained, and ccrtilled by the collector of internal revonue of the district from which the mauuf;tctnretl tobacco shall bo r omoved for exportation to the collector of the port whence the samo shall be ex11orteu, by whom 

tho same shall be tluly examined, nnd the an10unt of rluties reported for drawback 

in accortlauce with the regulations of the Secretar:v of the Treasury; aml tl1esame 

slla.ll be allowed anti paid as in other like cases of drawback of duties on manufactured articles ex ported. 

The amendment wa agreed to. 

The next amendment was to strike out section 29, in the following 

words: 

SEc. 29. That on and after the 1~t day of July next ther sha.lllJo lovied and paiu a tax on all sales of tocks, bonds, gold and ilver bullion, coin, and others curi- tic , at the rate of Y20 of 1 pnr cent. on the amount of the salo thereof; that every 

person, firm, or corporation engaged in the um;ine s of clliug stock , bonds, goltl and silver bullion, coin, and other securities, either for tboir mvu account or on the 

a{)count of others, shall keep a true and accurate r cor<l thereof, under oath, that 

the same is true and correct, t{) the collector of the district whP.re such bu iness is 

carried on, on or before the 1st and 15th day of each month, anti the collector shall 

thereupon assess and collect a tax of Y.."O of 1 per cent. on the gro amount of such 

sales. The said list or return shall be made in such form or manner as may be prescribed by the Commissioner of Internal Revenue. 

Mr. WRIGHT. I wish to call the attention of the chairman to the 

twenty-eighth section, which is an e:rten ion of the time for tho re- demption of direct-tax lands. I ask whether there was not a bill 

passed here on Saturtlay covering that ground Y 

Mr. SHERMAN. It pas ed here, but it may not pass the House. 

I think the same provision had uetter be made here also. Mr. WRIGHT. I thou~ht it was a House bill~ 

Mr. SHERMAN. No; It was a Senate bill. I think that section 

had better be retained hero. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on the amendment 

striking out the twenty-ninth section. The amendment was agreed to. 

Mr. SCOTT. That is the last of the amendments of the committee, 

I believe. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The amendmeuts of the committee are completed. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. President, two years ago, when the act of 1 i2 wa passed, I announced upon the floor of the enate that I hoped 

thoro would be no further change in the tariff laws for five years to come. It was with exceeding reluctance that I a~:,'"l'eed to report a bill making even these changes unless a general revision was neces- ary; but for the pillpose of securing some needed change in the internal-revenue laws and correcting Rome revealed defects in the act, 

tho e few amendments have bee_n agreed to, with one or two which 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5341 

are necessary to increase the revenue and which require immediate Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. There is no other State where they make 

action. a much crockery or eart.hen ware as in New Jersey, a.nd the manuThere are several subjects upon which I honld like to amend this facturers there request it. I move to strike out those lines. It will 

bill, particularly by a, repeal of the second section of the act of 1872, not cre::Jte any embarra sment. 

by imposing a tax on the deposits in national banks and in private Mr. SHERMAN. I will state th::J.t I have quite a number of papers 

banks on which they pay interest-! mean deposits upon call, or for about this particular item, and I can make a statement that will a period of not more than thirty days, and also a provision with re- Batisfy the Senate that we are right. The House committee put this 

gard to the limitation of suits under the internal-rovenue laws. All in, and the Senate committee after full examination concurred. I do 

these I should like to offer; but it is manifest that if we begin to offer not want to debate it. I hope the question will be put and the amendamendments on this bill we shall defeat all that is in it, and proba- ruent voted down. 

bly defeat action upon the subject altogether. I therefore shall re- The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on the amendment 

frain for the present from offering any of these amendments, in the of the Senator from New Jersey to strike out on the ninth and ienth 

hope that we can o'btain immediate and favorable action upon the lines of section 8. 

hill; but if other Senators deem it their duty to offer amendments to Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. This is a very small manufacture, and 

this bill so as to give rise to any protracted debate, then of course I it has got its growth in New Jer ey, as the Senator from New Jersey 

shall not only feel at liberty, but shall deem it my duty to my con- says. It seems to me that it is a hardship to strike it down. I hope 

stituent.s to offer the amendments in which I feel such great interest. therefore that the amendment of the Senator from New Jersey will 

Mr. ILUfLIN. The Senator from Pennsylvania has expressed pre- prevail. . . ci ely what is my own po ition. There are sundry amendment which The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on the amendment 

I would myself very much like to offer to this bill, amendments which of the Senator from New Jersey. 

I deem important, bnt acting precisely in that line of duty whlch The Cha.ir put the question and declared that the noes appeared to 

guides and <lirects the Senator from Pennsylvania, I shall refrain from prevail. 

offering any amendments, believing it better and wiser now to do the A division was called for. 

little-aml there is something-which this bill accomplishes than Mr. SHERMAN. If the Senate is to be divided on this question, I 

hazard all by attempting to do that which we cannot accomplish. · de ire to send for some papers to show the reasons why the committee 

lr. DAVIS. I ask that on the vote upon section 24 my vote be acted as they did. If we open the door to amendment, thtlre is an 

changed from "yea" to "nay," from the fact that I voted under a end to tho bill. · misapprehension. I supposed the question was on agreeing to the The question being again put, the amendment was rejected-ayes 

section. It will not change the result. . 10, noes not counted. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. That cannot be done. The rule po i- · The bill was reported to the Senate as amended. 

tively prohibit it. ].lr. BOUTWELL. I wish to reserve the amendment in regard to 

Mr. DAVIS. Then I shall reserve section 24 for separate action the duty on tin plates unless the suggestion I made to the chairman 

in the Senate. of the committee should lead him to change that. · The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator accomplishes his object 1\lr. SHERMAN. I have no objection to the reservation. by making the statement to go in the RECORD. The PRESIDING OFFICER. The remaining amendments made as Mr. B.A.Y.ARD. I have heard what the Senator from Pennsylvania in Committee of the 'Vhole will be considered as concurred in. 

[Mr. Scorr] has said and I concur with him. I will not profess that l\Ir. WRIGHT. I desire that the vote in Committee of the Whole 

thi!:! measure meets my approbation. Neither the frame-work of the on the last section shall be reserved for action in the Senate. measure nor the tendencies are those that I desire, and I am sorry that The PRESIDING OFFICER. That amendment will be reserved. 

the tarift' question should be submitted to this kind of patch-work a,t The que tion is on concurring ill the other amendments made as in 

tbe ontl of tho e ion. Yet nevertheless the bill has been prepa.red, Committee of the Whole. 

and I do not propose to ri k the labor of so many gentlemen by mak- Mr. D.A VIS. I ask for a separate vote on the twenty-fourth section, 

iug amendments, although I consider them just and proper. There because I voted upon it under a misapprehension. are ~:>everal that I desire earnestly to offer and earnestly to recom- The PRESII)ING Ol''FICER. That will be reserved. 

mend to the Senate; but looking to the expres ion of opinion by the The remaining amendments were concurred in. 

Senator from Pennsylvania and others that they do not propose at The PRESIDING OFFICER. The :fiTst reserved amendment will 

thi stage to embarras and perhaps defeat the entire measure, I shall be read. 

not press the amendments that I had intended to offer or make the The CHIEF CLERK. On page 4, line 16, the Senate as in Committee 

opposition to many that I had intended to make. I think on all these of the Whole struck out" quarter" and inserted "tenth" after "one," 

que tions of a O'eneral public law there must be a consideration of the so as to make the clause read: · entire case anJ' a consideration of the labors and the opinions of OQ.r a ociates here as well as of our own. I think that is a proper ::J.nd On tin in plates or sheets Md on terne and t.a.ggers' tin, 1.1 cents per pound. 

catholic spirit of legi lation, and for that reason I shall follow the Mr. SHERMAN. I do not understand the Senator from Massachuexample of my friend from Pennsylvania, and abstain from impeding setts as proposi.J;lz; any amendment to the section, but he doubts the 

the passage of this bill and hazarding the loss of the bill by amend- policy of a specinc duty on tin plates. 

ment offered at this stage. Mr. BOUTWELL. I do not object to the rate of duty, but I do 

Mr. FENTON. In view of what has been said by other Senators, apprehenil that there will be frauds upon the revenue in consequence 

I feel constrained to withhold several amendments which I had in- of a change from ad valorem, to specific duties. I am not sufficiently 

tended to offer to this bill. I am satisfied that it is the sense of the acquainted with the mechanica.l processes to state as a matter of opin- Senate to pa s the bill in the shape recommended by the Finance ion even wh::J.t the results may be; but the duty on Banca tin at 15 per 

Committee without further amendment or change. So, while I feel cent. amounts to about 4t cents a pound; that is, the metal callecl 

that the bill i in some respects very unsatisfactory, acting as do tin. I can imagine from wh9.t I have seen and heard that plates 

other Senators who also have a desire to further amenu the bill, I which are of iron may be heavily loaded with tin beyond the quantity 

shall not urge the amendments which I had intended to present. required for the ordinary purposes to which tin plates are put, and 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I desire the ear of the Senator from received in this country. at 1r<r cents a pound; and then this extra 

Ohio. This bill, by reason of the amendments already pa~sed, will loading may be taken "'ff and tin introduced at 1 to cents instead of 

have to go to the House again, a~ I understand. 4t cents a pound. I make the srtggestion. I do not know what will 

Mr. SHERMAN. I will say that the proper committee of the House happen, but that is what I anticipate. 

have already considered every amendment that h:as been adopted. Mr. SHERMAN. If the Serra tor from Ma sachusetts conld suggest to 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I have a number of amendments which mea more specific definitionofthearticlethaniscontainedin the e two 

I should like to offer, and I am very sorry that the bill has not been lines, I would accept his definition. .AB a matter of course tin in its 

considered at a time when it could be amemled. There is one amend- pure state is a very expensive a1iicle; but tin i:n plates or aheets as ment which I would ask the Senator from Ohio whether it would in the ordinary article of commerce is quite different. The great 

embarrass the bill to make or not, and that is on the sixth page, ninth body of it is iron. As a matter of courso, this duty of 11ir cents n, and tenth lines of section 8. There is a manufactory of spurs anu pound is on "tin in pl:~tes or sheets a.ncl on terne and ta~gers' fu1." 

stilts which has been established in this country. The free list of Tbis <loes not change the existing rate of duty on the article the Sen- 'this bill includes "spur and stilts used in the manufacture of earthen, ator mentions; but he thinks that by fraud or by the free use of the 

stone, or crockery ware." All parties engaged in the manufacture article with another, making a new article, the revenue may be deof earthen, stone, and crockery ware, as well as these manufacturers franded. That may bo so now. The same opportunity might apply 

of purs and tilt , desire the item stricken from the free list. I do under a specific as an ad valo1'em duty. 

not suppose it would be any embarrassment just to strike that from Mr. BOUTWELL. The honomble chairman will see the difference, tb~ free list. that if iron plates were now under an ad va.lo1·ent duty heavily loaned 

Mr. SHERMAN. That little item of spurs and stilts was very care- with Danca tin, that is the pure metal, beyond the quantity necessary 

fully considered in both Houses. We heard the parties on both sides for the uses to which tin plate are a.pplied, the cost of the plates on 

and we came to the conclusion that it was better to leave it where it the other side would be augmented precisely in proportion to the 

is now. It would embarrass the bill to take it off the free list. quantity of the pure metal used. But now if yon put ::J, specific clnty 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. There is but one manufactory in the by the potmd upon tin pla.tes the weight of which ordinarily is chiefly 

United States, and that is in New Jersey. iron, there is an opportunity furnish~cl for those who might be clisMr. SHERMAN. We know that; but as a matter of course all these posed to avail themselves of it to load these plates heavily with the 

people have to u o the stilts. pure metal and introduce the whole body at 1.1 cents a. ponntl and 
5342 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 22, 

then remove the surplus quantity of Banca tin which by itself would 

be subject to a duty of about 41- cents a pound, and get an advantaO'e 

of 3t cents a pound on the importation of the pure metal. o 

:Mr. SHER.l\IAN. The only change proposed by this bill is a change 

that has been recommended by the Trea ury Department, has been 

demanded by the dealers in this article, has been called for by the 

custom-house officers and by everybody, and it is recommended by 

the President, that is that we should as far as practicable change the 

ad valoren~ into specific duties. The duty now proposed to be imposed on tin in sheets is a, !ittle higher than the present ad valormn duty; 

but the present ad valm·ent duty has given rise to a great deal of litigation, to a great deal of trouble, ancl many lawsuits and controveries without number. It has given rise to oppression and abuse as charged on one side, and to fraud on the other. 

Under these circumstances it is of the highest importance to have a specific duty if practicable on the article of tin in plates; and the 

sugge tion now made, just at the heel of this debate, -is the first suggestion I have ever heard from any one that this article was more subject to frauds under a specific duty than under an ad valormn duty. 

If the Senator would suggest to me an amendment providinO' that if 

tin plates were charged more than their due and ordinary pr~portion with pure tin, they should be confiscated or should be subject to an ad valorent duty, I would accept the amendment without he itation; 

but there can be no difficulty between now and the next ses ion. I 

do not believe t.here is any danger of surcharging tin plates with too 

much tin in order to take it o:tf here aiJ.d evade a trifling duty. I 

think it is rather a fanciful danger than a real one. At any rate, it 

is one that has never been suggested to the committee of either Honse, 

and never so far a my attention has been called to the subject been 

mentioned by any one either in the customs-revenue service or in the 

trade. I hope therefore the Senator will run the risk till the next se sion of Congress at least of any pos ible fru.ud. 

Mr. BOUTWELL. The Gommittee must run the risk. I only felt 

it to be my duty with the pre ent iueas I have to make kno,vn to 

the committee what I fear. 

l\lr. SHERMAN. If the Senator had made this difficulty known to 

the committee earlier, when we were con idering the bill, we should 

probably have trieu to guartl against it. I have invited him to su.-.·- gest an amendment, but h e is not now prepared to do so. 0 

Mr. BOUTWELL. No amenJment would avail except to strike out 

the line. You cannot put a specific duty on tin plates that would admit 

of their importation and guard against the fraud which I apprehend. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. I think that the idea pf the Senator 

from Massachusetts is entirely imaginary. In the first place, if the 

tin should be melted off the e plates what would the iron plates be 

worthY In the next place, why should the importer go to that im- mense amount of labor to get the tin when he can import it free without any such trouble f It is now free in the shape of raw material. 

Mr. BOUTWELL. Do you say so~ 

Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BOUTWELL. Where is the la.w Y 

:Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. Here it is. [Handing a book to Mr. 

BouTWELL.l 

Mr. EDMUNDS. If it is free of cour e there is no danger ; but if 

it is not free, it could be done just as easy as not. · ~ir. BOUTWELL. I was looking at the law of 1871, which imposes a duty of 13 per cent. I see now there is no danger. ~lr. SHERMAN. It is all right then f 

Mr. BOUTWELL. Yes. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on concurring in the 

amendment made as in Committee of the Whole. 

The amendment was concurred in. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The next reserved amendment is to 

strike out the twenty-fourth section. 

The Chief Clerk :~;ead the section, as follows: 

SEC. 24. That from and after the paasage of this act any farmer or planter ma.y sell at the place of production tobacco of his own growth and raising at retail dlrectly to consumers to an amount not exceeding 100 annually, subject to such rules 

and regulations as may be prescribed by the COmmissioner of Internal Revenue. 

Mr. DAVIS. That is a section in which the State that I in part 

represent has a considerable interest and the people living in that 

region of country. I ask for a division on the section. I do not wish 

to take time by calling for the yeas and nays. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on concurring in the 

amendment to strike out the twenty-fourth section. 

The amendment wa~ concurred in; there being on a division-ayes 

3 , noes 13. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The next reserved amendment is to 

strike out the twenty-ninth section. 

The Chief Clerk read the section, as follows : 

SEc. 29. That on and after the 1st day of July next there shall be levied and paid a t.ax on all sales of stocks, bonds, gold and silver bullion, coin, and other securities, at the rate of 1/ !0 of 1 per cent. on the amount of the sale thereof· that every 

person, 1:irln, or corporation engaged in the business of selling stocks 'bonds, gold and silver bullion, coin, and other securities, either for their own acco'unt or on the a~count o~ others, shall keep a true and accurate record thereof, under oath, that 

the same lS true and correct, to the collector of the district where such business is 

carried on, on or before the 1st and 15th day of each month, and the collector shall 

thereullon.aasess and collect :J.ta.xof Y2!11 per cent. on the gross amount of such sales. 

The s31d list or return shall be made m such form m: manner as may be prescribed by the CoiOIDissioner of Internal Revenue. 

The amendment was concurred in. 

The amendments were ordered to be engros ed, and the bill to be 

read a third time. 

The bill was read the third time, and pas cd. 

MESSAGE FROM THE IIOUSE. 

·. A me sage from the House of Representatives: by llir. McPHERSox·, Its Clerk, announced that the House had passed the bill (S. No. t;28) 

for t.he relief of Alexander Henderson. 

· The me age also announced that the Ron e had pa.s ed a bill (II. 

R. No. 350G) for the relief of William To<l Helmuth of New York· 

in which it requested the concurrence of the Senate.' ' 

The message further announced that tl;l.e House had agreed to the 

concurrent resolution of the enate for the printing of two thousanrl 

copie of the report of t.be Chief Signal Officer for 1873, to be printed 

and bound for the use of the ecretary of War. 

Themes age ~so announced that the House bad agreed to the con- current r~ olution of the Senate for the printing of thr e thousand 

extra cop1e of the report of the Superintendent of the Coa~t Survey 

for the year 1873 for the use of the Superintendent of the Coast Survey. 

The me sage. further anno.un?ed t.hat the House bad passecl a con- current resolutiOn for i,he pnntrng of the reports of the United Sta.tcs 

commis ioners to the Vienna expo .. jtion. 

PRESIDENTIAL APPROVAL • 

A mcs ag~ from the President of the United State , by Mr. 0. E. 

BABC:OCK, his Secretary, announced that the President bad on the 

20th msta.nt approved and signed the followinO' acts: 

.An act ( . ~o. 41) granting a pen ion to ~fargaret E. A1 xa.ncler, 

W1dow of Edwrn A. Alexander, deceased, la.te a private in Company 

K, Eighth Regiment of Indiana Cavalry Volunteers, known as the 

Thirty-ninth Indiana Regiment; 

An act (S. No. 503) for the relief of Susan R. Moore, the relative and 

legatee of Phrebe Sofield, a pensioner; 

An a~t (S. No. 536) granting a pension to Livanna Ingraham; 

An act (S. No. GOO) granting a pension to Margaret A. Hoffner· 

An act (S. No. 613) granting a pension to Jefterson A. French·' 

An act (S. No. 690) granting a pension to Thomas Smith· ' 

An act ( . No. 767) granting a pension to Andrew J. La~ley · An act ( . No. 768) gra.nting a pension to John S. Long · ' 

An act (S. No. 14) granting a pension to Ebenezer W. Brady· 

An act (S. No. 877) granting a pension to John W. Truitt· ' 

An act (S. No. 954) prohibiting the publication of the revised tat- n ~esof the Uuited S ates in the newspapers at the exp n e of the 

United States; 

An act (S. ~o. 311) for the relief of Jo eph Montanari; 

An act (S. No. 595) for the relief of Benjamin Cooley and James \V. 

Boswell; 

An act (S. No. 176) to encournge the establishment of public marine 

school. 

The message also announced that the President had this day approved aml signed the following acts: , An act (S. No.4 2) to authorize the construction of a bridge over the Will~mette Riv.er at Salem, in the State of Oregon; 

An act (S. No. 758) to authorize and provide for the construction of a sub~tantial iron and masonry bridge and a causeway aero the Anacostia or Eastern Branch of the Potomac River, at or nea.r the site of 

the present navy-yard bridge; 

An act (S. No. 375) for the benefit of the Kentucky Agricultural 

and Mechanical Association; · 

An act (S. No.4 6) to extend the act of March 3, 1873, entitled "An 

act for the extension of time to the Saint Paul and Pacific Railroad 

Company for the completion of its road;" and 

An act (S. No.6 ) referring the claim of the owners of the choouer 

Ada A. Andrew8 to the Court of Claims. 

THE POST-ROUTE BILL. 

Mr. RAMSEY. Now, Mr. Pre ident, I move that the Senate re ume the consideration of House bill No. 3604, sometimes called the postroute bill. 

There being no objection, the Senate, a in Committee of the Whole 

resumed the consideration of the bill (H. R. No. 3604) to establish ccr~ tain post-routes. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The bill will be read .. Mr. l\IORTON. I hope nobody wants to hear that read. I a k 

unanimous consent to dispense with the reading. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I move tha.t the Senate proceed to the con idemtion of executive bu ine s. It will take but a short time. 

Mr. Rill EY. Let this bill pass first.. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. It will not pa.ss without reading. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on the motion of the 

Senat()r from Vermont. 

Mr. DAVIS. I think it very important that the post-route bill 

should be passed. The PRESIDING OFFICER. · The motion is not debatable. The 

question iB on the motion of the enato.r from Vermont. 

The motien was not agreed to. 

EXECUTIVE BUSD.""ESS. 

~lr. ED~fTThTDS. · There is some busine s that I have in charge aml some in which I feel a very deep inter~st, and nothing l>ut this po t-
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5343 

ronte bill being up, I ask to have the eighteenth rule read, and then 

I will see whether I can say anything to the Senate that public interests ref!uire to be tated or not. 

'l'lle PRESIDING OFFICER. The rule will be read. 

T:te Chief Clerk read as follows: 

18. On a motion made and seconded to shut the doors of the Senate, on the discussion of any business which may, in the opinion of a Senator, require secrecy, the 

Pre iding Officer shall direct the gallery to be cleared; and during the discussion 

of such motion the doors shall remain shnt. 

1\Ir. ED::\IUNDS. I move that the doors be closetl under the eighteenth rule. _ 

fr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I second the motion. 

1\fr. ED.MU1\TDS. The motion is seconded by the Senator from New 

Jersey. · Mr. SARGENT. I should like to have the rule read again. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The rule will be read. 

The Chief Clerk read. Rule 18. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Is the motion seconded Y 

llfr. l<'RELINGHUYSEN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. HAMLIN. The post-route bill is now before the Senate ; it is 

within our control now. !suggest that we had better go int'o execu- tive session, and when we come out the bill will be up; there will 

l.le no necessity for a vote to take it up. Making this suggestion with 

the cont;ent of the Senator from Vermont, other business having now 

intervened, I move that the Senate proceed to the consideration of 

executive business. 

1\Ir. RA.l\ISEY. Very well. ·Mr. SHERMAN. Allow me a moment. I shall vote for the motion 

of the Senator from Maine, but before the precedent now sought to be 

set is established, I wish to say that before a' Senator can of his own will turn everybody out of the galleries and close the Senate he must 

state himself, upon his responsibility as a Senator, that upon the 

pending question, in the language of the rule, the public interest 

demands that the galleries should be cleared. When he has made 

that statement under the rule he probably can at any time clear the 

galleries. 

Ur.EDMlTh"TIS. This is an interestincr question. 

l\fr. SHERMAN. The Senator ought to state--

1\fr. ED~fUNDS. 'l'he Senator would be a little wiser if he would 

read the rule. 

Mr. SHERMAN. · I ask the Senator to read it. .1\fr. EDMUNDS. I will read it: 

On a motion made and seconded to shut the doors of the Senate, on the cliscussion 

of any business which may, in the opinion of a Senator, require secrecy1\Ir. SHERMAN. He must state his opinion. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Be kind enough to let me read the rule through-=-

t.he Presidi.J;Jg Officer shall direct the gallery to be cleared; and during the discussion of such motion the doors shall remain shut. 

I made the motion and stated that there was business to be discussed which I thought (as of course I must think as to executive 

business) requires secrecy, and business of high imp<lrtance. Thereupon I make the motion that the doors be shut, a.nd I have a precedent for what I say, a motion ma~e by the. colleague of my friend 

from Maine, now deceased, (Mr. Fessenden,) where we had a question 

which ought to be considered in secret session, not "the pending question" which was before the body on the bill that happened to be ·Up 

for the relief of John Jones, or for a post-route, but matters within 

the possession of the Senate, and the motion was made, the matter was considered, and the doors were closed. Although it is of no con- sequence at this time probably, for everybody now, I believe, is willing to go into executive sess~on, I beg leave to state to the Senator 

from Ohio tha.t he is mistaken in supposing that a Senator must sta.te 

that the pending question before the Senate it is necessary to dis- cuss in secrecy. The question is whether there is any business before 

the Senate which in the conscientious judgment of a Senator requires 

that the doors should be immediately closed that it may be considered. 

The President of the United States may send a message to this body 

at this momept of the highest importance to the national interests, 

of a confidential character, and it may be that an opposition to the Ad~inistration would say, ''We intend to di·ag this se~sion through 

before you can have the message communicated to the Senate for its 

action, in order that it may judge whether it will prolong its session or whatever may be necessary." ·And therefore, inasmuch as Senators 

cannot· say that the post-route bill requires secrecy, this motion can- not be made. The Senator has forgotten the history of this ancient 

rnle, and the motives for it. What were they' When the Senate was small, and it was supposed every Senator understood what the 

conficlential business before the Senate wa , when any subject that a Senator thought required secrecy and action :was before the Senate-

! do not mean up for debate in public, but in possession of the Senate, on its table yet unopened- he might take the responsibility, subject 

o£ course to public disgust and all that sort of thing by his brother 

Senators if he was making a frivolous demand, of having the doors 

closed. 

I only mention this in vindication of the rule and in vindication of 

myself. I can state that I think I am entirely within the eighteenth rulo, and that I have a perfectly satisfactory motive for it. 

Mr. SHERMAN. Before the question is put-lest this might be a precedent, and a very inconvenient one in practice-! wish again to . 

call attention to the language of t.he rule to show the meaning of it, 

and I could go into the hi tory of it if I chose: 

On a motion ma{}e and seconded to shut the doors of the Senate, on the discussion of any business which may, in the opinion of a Senator, require secrecy. 

The ''business" must be pending under discussion. Then any 

Senator has a right to say, "I desire to make some statement to the 

Senate in regard to this question under discussion which in my opinion demands sem;ecy; I do not choose to give it to the galleries around 

me;" antl on that motion being seconded then the Senate must perforce, willing or unwilling, give the opportunity to the Senator to 

state whu_t he desires, in confidence, to the Senate. That is the rule. 

But I have no objection to an executive session now. I agree that we ought to proceed to the consideration of executive business, but I 

do not want t.his to be made a precedent. 

Mr. EDUUNDS. It has been acted on over and over again, and my 

construction is the safest way. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. It is moved that the Senate now proceed to the consideration of executive business. 

The question being put, there were, on a division-ayes 21, noes 11 ; no quorum voting. · Mr. SARGENT. We had better have the yeas n,nd nays. ["No!" 

'<No!"l 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. There is a quorum present and the 

Chair will put the question again. 

The question being again put, there were, on a division-ayes 27, 

noes_l4. 

So the motion was agreed to. 

DETROIT ARSENAL. 

Mr. KELLY. I wish to make a report before the doors are clo e_d. 

I am directed by the Committee on Military .A..ffairs, to whom wa.s re- ferred the bill (H. R. No. 3435) to provide for the sale of the buildings 

and grounds known as the Detroit arsenal, in the State of Michigan, 

to report it back with · amendments; and 1 ask for the present con- sideration ofthe bill. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. That will not do. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The bill will be placed on the Calendar, objection being made to its present consideration. 

EXECUTIVE SESSIO~. 

The Senate proceeded to the consideration of executive business. After three hours spent in executive session the doors were reopened 

at four o'clock and five minutes p.m. 

While the doors of the Senate Chamber were closed the following 

legislative business was transacted: · 

MESSAGE FRQ::II THE HOUSE. 

A message from the House of Representatives, by Mr. McPHERSON, 

its Clerk, announced that the House had agreed to the report of the 

committee of conference on the disagreeing votes of the two Houses on the bill (S. No.7) for the creation of a court for the adjudication 

and disposition of certain moneys received into the Treasury under an award made by the tribunal of arbitration constituted by virtue 

of the first article of the treaty concluded at W ashil\gton the 8th of 

May, A. D. 1871, between the United States of America and the Queen 

of Great Britain. E~L{OLLED BILLS SIGXED. 

The message also announced that the Speaker of the House had 

signed the following enrolled uills; and they were thereupon signed 

by the President p1·o tempm·e : A bill (S. No. 732) supplementary to the act ent.itled. "An act to incorporate the Texas Pacific Railroad Company and to aiel in the con- ·struction of its road, and for other purposes;" 

A bill (S. No. 828) for the relief of Alexander Henderson; 

A bill (S. No. 669) referring the petition and papers in the case of 

Robert M. and Stephen A. Douglas, iu so far as the same relates tO 

cotton seized, to the Court of Claims; 

A bill (H. R. No. 899) to constitute Montgomery, in the State of 

Alabama, a port of delivery ; 

A bill (H. R. No. 3772) for the relief of John D. Young, of Ken-

~~; . 

A bill (H. R. No. 2246)relating to circuit courts of the United States. for the districts of Alabama; and 

A bill (H. R. No. 3030) making appropriations to supply deficiencies 

in the appropriations for the service of the Government for the fiscal 

years ending June 30, 1873 and 1 74, and for other purposes. 

The message fmther announced that the House had agreed to the 

amendment of the Senate to the bill (H. R. No. 3256) to repeal so much of the act approved May 8, 1872, entitled "An act making 

appropriations for the legisla.tive, executive, and judicial expenses of 

the Government for the year ending J nne 30, ltl73, and for other purposes, as provides for the employment of per ons to assist tho proper 

officers of the Government in discovering and collecting moneys withheld, and for other purposes. 

The message also a,nnounced thn.t the House had disagreed to the 

amendments .of the Senate to the bill (H. R. No. 316 ) making appropriations for the repair, preservation, and completion of certain pub- lic works on rivers and harbors, and for other purposes, asked a con- ference on the disagreeing votes of the two Houses thereon, and hnu 

appointed Mr. PHILETU~ SAWYER of Wiscon:sin, Mr. GEORGE W. 
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 22, 

McCRARY of Iowa, and Mr. ERASTUS WELLS of Missouri, managers 

at the same on its pa1·t. 

RIVER AND HARBOR BILL. 

The Senate proceeded to consider the action of the Honse of Representatives on its amendments to the bill (H. R. No. 3168) making 

appropriations for the repair, preservation, and completion of certain 

public works on river aud harbors, and for other purposes. 

On motion of Mr. CHANDLER, it wa 

Resolved That the Senate insist on its amendments to the said bill disagreed to by the Ho~se of Representatives, and a~ee to the conference asked by the House on the disagreeing votes of the two Houses thereon. 

By unanimous consent it, was 

Ordered, That the conferees on the part of the Senate be appointed by the President pro tempore. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore appointed Mr. CHANDLER, Mr. ]3ucKINGIIAM, and Mr. DEl\TNIS. 

WITHDRAWAL OF PAPERS. 

On motion of Mr. WRIGHT, it was 

Ordered, That W. R. Brown have leave to withdraw his petition aml papers from 

the files of the Senate. llOU E BILL REFERRED. 

The bill (H. R. No. 975) to amenu the act entitle<-l "An act to provide for the redemption of the 3 per cent. temporary-loan certificates 

aml for an incre:ISe of national-bank notes," approved July 12, 1870, was reau twice by its title, aml refene<l to the Comm..ittee on Finance. 

:M:A..~AGERS OF HOME FOR DISABLED SOLDIERS. 

By unanimous consent, the joint resolution (H. R. No. 114) to rul. a vacaucv in the board of managers of theN ational Home for Disabled 

Volunteer Soldiers wa read three times, and passed. 

STEAMBOAT KITTY STRAN"G. 

By unanimous consent, the bill (H. R. No. 1767) to change the name of the steamboat Kitty Strang wa-s reau three times, and passed. 

REGISTRATION OF DEATH IN THE DI TRICT. 

By unanimous consent, the bill (H. R. No. 773) to further define 

and enlarge the power and duties of the board ot health of the District of Colnmbia was read three times, and passed. 

SCHOONER DELMAR. 

By unanimous consent, the bill (H. R. No. 3211) to change the name of the schooner Delmar was read three times, and p ed. 

PAY TO DISCHARGED EMPLOYES. 

By unanimous consent, the joint re olution (H. R. No. 115) for the 

relief of certain clerk and employes of the Unitetl States was reau 

three time , and passeu. 

WILLIAM TOD HELMUTH. 

By unanimous consent, the bill (H. R. No. 3506) for the relief of 

William Tod Helmuth, of New York, wn read threetimes,andpa ed. 

CAPTAIN HALL'S WIDOW. 

On motion of Mr. ALLISON, the bill (H. R. No. 3422) for the relief 

of Mercy Ann Hall, wiuow of Captain Charles F . Hall, was con- sidereu a in Committee of the Whole. The bill was reported to the Senate, ordered to a third reading, read 

the third time, and pas d. 

ORDER OF BUSINESS. 

The do01 hn, ving been opened, 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. We have received from the House of 

Represen atives the report of the committee of conference on the 

Geneva n,wanl bill. I move to proceed to its consideration. 

Mr. RAMSEY. That pot>tpones the po t-route bill, which is regularly before the Senate. · . Mr. WEST. I de ire to offer a report from the committee of con- ference on the post-office appropriation bill, having been ad vi ed by 

the member in charge from the Honse that the Hou e is waiting to con ider that report. I ask the Senate to judge between the two 

reports, whether they will consider the Geneva conference report or the report on tho post-office appropriation bill, with almost the a urance that the debate on the Geneva award bill will detain the 

Senate some hour . . ~.IJ:. RAMSEY. May I say a word in behalf of the bill that I have 

been urging for two w eks and have at last got before the Senate 7 

There eems to be some malign purpose on the part of gentlemen to 

cTowd out that bill and prevent its passage during th1s session. I 

hope O'eutlemen will defer their report.s until the post-route bill is 

di po ed of. I ask the Chair what will be the effect of entertaining 

the e propo itions or either of them¥ Would it displace the bill 

now upf 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore . . The post-route bill being before 

tho Seni\.te, the Senator from New Jersey or any other Senator can move to postpone that bill . .Mr. FRELlNGHUY EN. I move to postpone that bill. Mr. RAMSEY. I hope that will not be done. 

Mr. STEVENSEN. I sugge t to the Senator from New Jersey, as I 

do not wish to antagonize the pre entation of hi report upon the Ge- neva award, that he hc1.d better fix some hour this evening for conSidering it; and I will state my reason for this suggestion. There are a great many bills from the House, not only the bill of the Senator 

from Minnesota, but other bills from the House, of an important character, each of which it will not take aminuteto pass; and by fixing a certain hour when we can reach the Geneva-award bill, which is cer- ta,in to elicit debate and perhaps consume the whole of the evening, we oan attend to that without losing a great many bills which we 

can now pas. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I shall ask the Senate to vote upon the 

motion which I have made. The Geneva-award report ought to elicit no debate whatever, for the result of the conference which has been 

arrived at pays those that every member of the Senate and every 

member of the House of Repre entatives voted should be paid, and 

it pays no one else, and it leaves the fund subject to future dispo ition and to claims by the war-premium men, the insurance men, anu tho e who have lost by other ves els than those inclnued in the bill. 

The simple question is whether, when a conference has arriveu at an agreement which pays tho e whom every member of Congress of both 

Houses say should be paid, the Senate will deprive them of their 

money. Mr. WEST. I understand the Senator from New Jersey moves to 

take up the report of the conference committee on the Geneva award . The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Senator from New Jersey moves to postpone the pending order and proceed to the consideration of that report. 

Mr. WEST. I move to amend the motion of the Senator from New 

Jersey, that the Senate proceed to t.he consideration of the conference 

report on the post-office appropriation bill. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. 'That motion is not in order. 

Mr. RAMSEY. I hope the Senate will vote down both motions 

and allow the post-route bill to pass. It cannot possibly occupy over thirty minutes. · The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question is on the motion of 

the Senator from New Jersey. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I ask for the yeas and nays. 

Tbl3 yeas and nays were ordered. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Mr. President, I do not think that a question of 

this importance ought to be dispo ed of on the run. At the last ses- sion of Congress we passed the bill through the Senate as it was passed 

at this session almost word for word. It went to the House of Repre- sentatives and was met with an amendment of the character sub t.antially of that of this year. We had a conference; and the conferees on the part of the Senate, containing my honorable friend from Ohio 

[Mr. THURMAN] a.s one of them, after we hadexhanstedall other means of getting at a result that would dispose of the whole qu.e tion, proposed to the House oonferees that we had just passed the Senate bill 

which provided for a class of citizens in re pect to whom everybouy 

said indemnification ought to be made and would remit to the next 

Congress .the question which other citizens raised with the Government in respect to their claims. The whole body of the Senate con- ferees, I say, a year ago, including the Senator from Ohio, proposed 

to thE} House conferee , ina much as we could all agree as to one class 

of our citizens, that justice, goocl faith, honor, and every sentiment 

which belongs to fair dealing required us to provide for them now, 

and leave questions that we could not solve to be settled in the future. 

The House conferees refused to do that, and in isted that we should 

do more or the less, as the ca8e might be, or nothing should be done. · The Honse stood by them upon that, and accordingly nothing was done. 

This year the conference again meets upon the same ub tantial 

attitude between the two Houses, and the House conferee , instead 

of refusing to do that which they refused to do la t year, pre ed by 

this sense of justice to people whom ali sides agree ought to have 

tht:!ir money, have agreed to a report which simply gives to the own- ers of the ve els who were uninsured, and their captn,ins and crews, 

the money that they are entitled to, and in terms leaves the subject 

of other disputed questions and claims to the future disposition of 

Congre . Can anybody say that that is not eq_uita,ble and right f 

That is all it does. 

Then when you come to the suggestion of the other Senator from 

Ohio, [Mr. SHERMAN,} that the clause about the payment in gold 

being stricken out doubles the claim, let me tell the Senator, from a pretty careful investigation that we made of thv.t subject, that the 

clause paying in gold nearly doubles the claims. There is the differ- ence. I suggested that to the Senate in the confu ion and hurry 

when the bill was up before; but as nobody was listenin(J', a I a-s- sume, the motion of the Senator from Ohio was made anu carried 

putting in the clause providing for payment in gol<:l, which makes an arbitrary standard when gold and the values of shippin~ and of the 

cai'goes and all other thing were different at different time . orne 

men by this gold rule would be almost ruined in getting their pay 

now; others would make large profits, depending upon the particular 

period of time :when the destruction took plooe, as all our value , ·as everybody knows, were currency value . So we pay the currency value, which gives justice and uniformity to all classes of the people. 

Mr. President, I shall be surprised and sorry to see the Senate of the 

United States say to the uninsured owners of the ship that were unk on the high seas or burned up, and to their crews and offic r an<l to 

the merchants who ha-d uniu ured property on boaru tho~e hip , 

"We 1·efuse to give you y':ur money that our agents a y ar ng in-
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5345 

sisted should be given and we did, but the House failed to do it; and now that the House bas done it, we will turn around and refuse to do 

this which we unanimously agreed ought to be done, because we are 

unable to agree with the House to do something else." That i precisely what the question is; and, as I say, a year ago on that que tion 

the conferees of the Senate were unanimous in their action, and so reported to the Senate of the United States. Now, I do not see upon what grounclit is that my friend from Ohio 

who sits farthest from me [1\Ir. THURMAN] should find it to be his 

duty to refuse to do this on account of his views upon a.nother branch of 

the subject, when that other branch of the subject is left open for the 

action of the next ession of Congress. Here is~ class of our citi- zens whose vessels and cargoes have been destroyed on the high seas and in re pect of whom the United St~tes has recovered a certain indemnity, and as to those everybody says they ought to have the meas- ure of the just losses they have incurred. ':['his report of the confer- ence committee gives it to them and does not undertake to decide any 

other que tion at all. It leaves all the rest of the question exactly 

where it was before, so that at a future session any insurance com- pany, a:uy war-premium man, any person injured by the cruisers outside of the time named, stands on exactly the same footing where he 

st!1D.ds a.t thi moment to have his claim considered. Yet here are the e people whose claims we have considered and all parties agree ought to have their money, orne of them sailors and officers who have 

lit tle else in this world to rely upon, some of them whose whole prop- . erty was involved in these ships uninsured that were destroyed, and 

who have now been delayed too long, upon the simple groUlld that 

there are questions connected with this subject which we cannot now 

decide. 

It does appear to me that it would be an inexcusable act of injustice 

to fail to agree to report, inasmuch as it appears to m~ clearly from 

the reading of it that all other questions are Ieft without any prejudice to the :rights of any claimant who may come forward at the next 

session. 

Mr. FLANA.G.A.N. I do hope that the bill before the Senate will not 

be postponed. It is an important one. Every State is directly and 

deeply intere t ed in a post-route bill. The other is a matter as to the merits of which I have no.thing to say, but -in due time it will come up. But the bill regularly before the Senate now must necessarily be 

returned to the House for action on our amendments, and I hope the 

Senate will stand by it and dispose of it. 

Mr. WEST. What is the pending question' 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The pending question is, will the 

Senate postpone the po t-route bill and proceed to consider the report 

of the committee of conference on the Geneva award bill, upon which 

the yea and nay have been ordered. 1r. THURMAN. If the report of the conference committee were clearly and unequivocally, without any ambiguil.y whatever, what 

the Senator from Vermont supposes it to be, ancl if there were no other thing in it that was objectionable, there would not have been a diviued report from the Senate managers. But I apprehend that that 

is not the nature of this report; and whenever it shall be taken up, 

I hope to be able to satisfy the Senate that the Senator from Vermont is mistaken in what he supposes to be the character of this 

report. I think that which is reported is an extremely dangerous 

proposition, and I hope that I rpay have the attention of tlJe Senate, 

when the time comes whenever it shall be taken up, to explain why 

I think so. I am as willing ancl as anxious as the Senator from Vermont or anybody else to pay, and to pay without one mom~nt's delay, 

tho e persons who we all agree are entitled to be paid. The Senate 

knows I wa-s last year, and I am so again ; bnt I do not want anybody to be deceived about the effect of this bill should it become a law. 

But the question now is shall the other measure be postponed and 

this taken up, and under that I have no right to discuss the merits 

of this conference report. I therefore refrain from saying anything 

about them until the report shall be taken up. 

Mr. RAMSEY. I hope the Senate will now adhere to the post-route 

bill. 

Mr. SHERMAN. I shall vote for taking up t.b.e first conference report that is offered. Here we are in the la-st hours of the session 

aud we have to act upon both these reports, and we must do it to-night. 

There is no help for it, if we set sixty hours in consecutive se sion. I hope we shall wa-ste no time. I shall vote to consider the first con- ference report that comes in. Which of these reports has now the 

preference t 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. This. 

Mr. SHERMAN. What is the question f 

The PRESIDENT pro ttlmpm·e. The question is, Will the Senate _ postpone the post-route bill and proceed to the consideration of the r 0port of the committee of conference on the Geneva award bill t 

Mr. SHERMAN: I shall vote to postpone everything to take up a conference r eport at this stage of the session. 

Mr. WEST. To take up the Geneva award bill now is absolutely 

to kill the po t-office appropriation bill. . 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. 0, no! 

Mr. WEST. Yes; this Geneva award bill will be talked all night. 

The question lJeing taken on Mr. FnELINGHUYSEN'S motion by yeas 

an(l na.ys, re ulted-y~as 15, nays 38; as follows : 

YE~Messrs. Alcorn, Anthony, Boutwell, Bu~gham, Carpenter, Chandler, 

335 

Edmunds, Frelinghuysen, Gilbert, Morrill of Maine, Mo.rrill of Vermont, Oglesby, Sherman, Washburn, n.nd Wright-15. . NAYS-Mes rs. Bayarn, Bo..,.y, Bor ellll1Il, Clayton, Conover, Cooper, Davis, F en. ton, }<'lanagan, Goluthwaite, Gordon, H .tger, Hamilton of Maryland, H aml in, H ar: vey, Hitchcock. llowo, I ngalls, K elly, Lewis, McCr er,y, Merrimon, Mitchell, P at- terson, P ea e, Pratt, Ramsey, Ransom, Robertson, Sa gent~ Saulsbm·y, Spra,crue, Steven son, Stockton, Thnrman,·\Vadleigh, W est, and Windom-3 . ABSENT-Mes rs. Allison, BroWJtlow, Cameron, Conkling, Cra!!in, Dennis, Dor- sey, F en-y of Connecticut, F erry of Michigan, Hamilton of x:a~, J=o~ on, .Jones, Logan, Morton, Kerwood, Sch urz, Scott, Spencer, Stewart, and Tipton-2;.1. 

So the motion wa-s not agreed to. 

ENROLLED BILLS SIGNED. 

.A. message from the House of Representatives, by Mr. McPHERS0.:8, 

its Clerk, announced that the Speaker of the House had signed the 

following enrolled bill and joint resolution; and they were thereupon signed by the President p1·o tempore: 

.A. bill (H. R. No. 3256) to repeal so much of the act approved May. 8, 1872, entitled "An act making appropriations for the legislative, 

executive, and judicial expenses of the Government for the yea.r ending June 30, 1A73, and for other purpo es," as provides for the employ- ment of persoru~ to a ist the proper officers of the Government in discovering and collecting moneys withheld, and for other purpo es; and 

.A. joint r esolution (H. R. No. 59) amenuing joint re olution of April 

16, 1872, relating to a statue of the late Admiral Farragut. 

DI TRICT GO~~m...-~n-JOINT COMMITIEE. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Under section 5 of an act for the 

government of the District of Columbia, and for other pnrpo e , being 

House bill Jo. 36 0, a joint select committeei proyjdedfor, two mem- bers to be appointed by the Presiding Officer of the Senate and two 

by the Speaker of the House. Under that section the Chair appoints 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine, and Mr. HAMILT0.:8, of Maryland, the members 

of the committee on the part of the enate. 

IESSAGE FROM THE HOU E. 

.A. message from the Hou e of Representative , by Mr. McPHERSON, 

its Clerk, announced that the House had appointed J,.[r. R. C. P .ARSONS, · of Ohio, a conferee on the disagreeing votes of the two Houses on the 

bill (H. R. No. 31G8 ) making appropriations for the repair, preservation, and completion of certain public works on rivers and harbors 

and for other purposes, in place of Mr. GEORGE W. McCRARY, of Iowa, 

excused. 

POST-ROUTE BILL. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. The post-route bill is before the 

Senate. 

Mr. WEST. I think it is pretty well known to every Senator that 

it is not much worth while to consider the po t-route bill unless you 

have the money with which to run your mails over the routes; and 

there is another consideration on which I shall appeal to certain mem- bers of the Senate, who will understand })recisely that it was agreed 

that appropriation bills should have priority over other matters. The House of Representatives at -l:he present moment has no business 1 o consider on appropriation bills from the fact that we do not send 

them over to them. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. That is not in order. 

1\Ir. WEST. It may not be in order, but I have stated the fact; and- if it is not in order I will withdraw it. [Laughter.] 

Mr. RAMSEY. What is the use of appropriating money unless you 

have some use for it 

Mr. WEST. We have plenty of use for the money. I move to 

postpone the post-route bill for the purpose of considering the report 

from the committee of conference on the post-office appropriation bill. 

Mr. D.A. VIS. I suggest to the Senator from Minnesota that he just · Jay his bill aside informally in order to allow the conference report 

to be made. It will only take a moment. · 1\Ir. RAMSEY. If I do, I must do the same thing with the other 

report. 

Mr. DA. VIS and Mr. HiliiLTON, of Maryland. 0, no. Mr. EDMUNDS. What is the pending order f 

The PRE IDE NT pro tempm·e. The pending question is the motion 

to po tpone the po t-route bill and proceed to the consideration of 

the report of the committee of conference on the post-office appro-· priation bill. 

.hlr. EDMUNDS. Has the post-route bill been read f 

The PRESIDENT pro tempo1"e. It has not been. Mr. EDMUNDS. It must be read before it is debated. 

Mr. WEST. Must it be read before it is proceeded with f 

1\Ir. EDMUNDS. Yes. Mr. WEST. If W('. have to stand that-- The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. The bill will be read. 

1\Ir. EDMUNDS. I only want to l'emind my friend from Louisiana 

that there is some liberty left, and now I withdraw for his motion. 

The bill need not be read now; but I withdraw the call for the read 

ing, subject to its being read when it is taken up for action. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Senator from Louisiana moves 

to postpone the po t-route bill. 

1\Ir. D.A. VIS. Only informally. 

}.fr. EDl1UND . No sir; nothing is done informally. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempm·e. · The Senator from Louisiana moves to postpon e tho po t-route bill and proceed· to the consideration of 

the report of the committee of conference on the post-office a.pproprla.tion bill. 
5346 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 22, 

The question being put a. division was called for, and the yeas 

were 32. 

Mr. RAMSEY. As this will involve the loss of the post-route bill, 

I call for the yeas and nays. 

The yeas and nays were ordered. . Mr. GOR:OON. I shoultlliketoinquiretheeffcctofthisvote. Will 

the effect be to dis1Jlace the post-route bill entirely f 

The PRESIDENT pro tempm·e. It will. 

Mr. SHERMAN. It can come up again on motion. 

Mr. DA. VIS. Is it in .order to · amend the' motion of the Senator 

from Louisiana, so as to lay the post-route bill aside informally! 

The PRESIDENT pro tentpore. It is not. 

Mr. SARGENT. That can be done by general consent. 

1\Ir. DA. VIS. I a k unanimous consent that it be done. 

The PRESIDENT pro tmnpm·e. The Senator from West Virginia. 

asks unanimous consent to lay aside the post-route bill informally 

and proceed to the consideration of the report of the committee of 

conference on the post-office appropriation bill. 

Mr. RAMSEY. The same request has been refused in the other 

case. 

Mr. HAMILTON, of Maryland. It will not be refused now. The PRESIDENT pro lentpore. Is there objection. 

Mr. RAMSEY. I ouject. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The roll-call will proceed. 

The question being taken by yeas a.nd nay , resulted-yeas 27, nays 

26 ; as follows : 

YEAS-Messrs . .Alcorn, Bayard, Boutwell, Buckingham, Carpenter, Davis, Edmunds Frelinglmysen, Gilbert, Hag-er, Hamilton of Mar.vla.nd, Hitchcock, Me· ereery: Morrill of Maine, Morrill of Vermont, O;:!lesby, Sargent, Saulsbury, 'cot.t, 

Sherman, Sprague, Stockton, Thurman, Wa-shbum, West, Windom, :md Wrightr27. 

'N.A.YS- 1tfessrs. Boay, Boreman, Chandler~,~lavton, Conover, Cooper, Dennis, 

Fenton, Flanagan, Goldthwaite, Gordon, Hamll.u, Kelly, Lewis, Logan, Merriruon, 

Mitchell, .£ orwood, Patterson, Pease, Pratt, l:.amsey, Ransom, Robertson, Steven- son, ancl. Wadleigh-26. . . . . .A.B ENT-Me srs . .A.ll1son, .Anthony, Brownlow, Cameron, Conkling, Cragm, 

Dorsey Ferr:v of Connecticut, Ferry of Michigan, Hamilton of Texa , Harvey, Howe, ingalls, Johnston, Jones, Morton, Schurz, Spencor, !Stewart., and Tipton-20. 

So the motion of :Mr. WEST was agreed to. 

ME SAGE FROM TIIE HOUSE. 

A me.~sa.O'e from the House of Representatives, by Mr.:l\fcPHER ON, 

its Clerk, ~nuounced that the House had non-concurred in the amendments of the Senate· to the bill (H. R. No. 3572) to amend existing 

customs and internal-revenue laws, and for other purposes, asked a. conference on the di agreeing votes of the two Houses thereon, and 

had appointed Mr. HENRY L. DAWES of Massachusetts, Mr. WILLIAM 

D. KELLEY of Pennsylvania, and Mr. JAMES B. BECK of Kentucky 

managers at the same on its p::t.rt. 

TAX A."'D TARIFF BILL. 

The Senate proceeded to consider the action of the House of Rep- resentatives on its amendments to the bill (H. R. No. 3572) to amend 

existing customs and internal-revenue laws, and for other purposes. 

On motion of Mr. SHER~!A.N, it was 

Resolved, That the Senate insist on its amendments disagreed to by the House of 

Representatives, and agree to the conference asked by the House on the ilisagreeiug votes of the two Houses thereon. 

By unanimous con ent, it was 

Ordered, That the conferees on the part of the Senate be appointed by the President pro ternpcrre. 

Tho PRESIDENT pro tempm·e appointed Mr. SHERMAN, Mr. MoRRILL of Vermont, and Mr. BAYARD. 

POST-OFFICE APPROPRIATION BILL. 

· Mr. WEST. I now submit the report of the committee of confer- ence on the post-office appropriation bill. 

The Chief .Clerk rea.d the report, as follows: 

The committee of conference on the disagreeing votes of the two Houses on the 

bill {H. R. No. 3094) makin~ appropriations for the service of the Post-Office De· 

partment for the year ending June 30, 1875, and for other purposes, having met, 

after full and free conference have agreed to recommend and do recommend to their e~pective Houses a.a follows: 

That the Senate recede from its amendments numberecl13 and 15. 

That the House t;ecede from its disagreement to the amendments numbered 2 :md 

5, zwd agree to the same. That the House recede from its disa!ITeement to the sixth amendment, and agree to the same with an amendment as follows: Strike out the words "library of the office of the .Assistant .Attorney-General," and insert in lieu thereof the worct "use;" anu the Senate agree to the same. That the Senate recede from its disagreement to the amemlme.nts of the Ilouse to tho ighth amendment, and ~eo to the same with amendment-s as follows: In line 1 of said Senate amendment after "on" insert ·'and after the 1st day of January, 1875;" strike out all afoor "prodded" in line 7, an<l in ert "that nothing in 

this act shall be held t.o chan!!e or amend section 99 of the act entitled '.A.n act to revis , concolidare, and amen'd the statutes r elating to the Po t-O.ffice Department,' a.pproved June , 1872; " and in section 6, line 1, after '• that" insert tlle words " on and after the 1st day of January, 1875;" and the House agree to the same. That the enate recede from its disagreement to tho amendments of the Honse to the twelfth amendment, and agree to the same. with amendments as follows: In 

the s cond amendmBnt of the House to said Senate amendmentstrike out "taken" 

and insert "made; " in line 31 of said Senate amendment strike out "one; " and the 

Honso agree to the same. Thattbe House recede from its disagreement to the fourteenth amenclment, and 

a!rree to tho same with amendments as follows: In line 9 strike out "eight" and 

insert "six; " in line 33 strike out "eiaht" and insert ." six; " in line 67 strike out " fifty" and insert "sixty; " in line 68 strike out "forty" and insert "fifty; " 

iu line 69 strike out" thirty" and insert "forty;" and the Benateagreetothe same. 

That the Hon e r cede from its disagreement to the sixteenth amendment, and 

agree to the same with an amendment as follows: In line 87 strike out the words 

"a letting under all vertisement can take place" and in ert in lieu thereof " the 

service shall have commenced under a contract mad.e according to law;" and the 

Senate a!!ree to the same. That it.e Honse recede from its disagreement to the seventeenth amendment, and ~pee to the same with an amendment as follows: Insert in lieu of said amendment me following : · That hereafter the postage on public documents mailed by any member of Congress, the Pre ident, or he:.W of any Ex:emJ.tive Department, shall bo ten cents for 

each bound volume, and on unbound documents the same rate as that on news- papers mailed from a. known office of publication to regular subscribers, and the 

word "Public documents" written or printed thereon or on the wrapper t.horeof, 

and certified by the si!!Ilatnre of any member of Con are s, or by that of the Pres- ident, or heau of any E'xecuti\e Department, shall be 8eemed a. sufficient certificate 

that the same is a public document; and the term "public document" is hereby defined to be all publications printed by order of Congress, or either House thereof. 

.And the Senate agree to the same. J. R.WEST, 

.ALEX. RAMSEY, 

Managers on the pa1·t of the Senate. 

J.A.S. N. TYNER, 

S. S. MARSHALL, 

Jlanagers on tile part of the House. 

Mr. SHERMAN. I regret very much that I wa-s not able to agree 

to the report of the committee of conference on account of the very 

large reduction it makeS' in the rate of po tage on now papers. It i 

reduced by this bill to one-half the pre ent rate. The pre cnt rate 

of po tage on newspaper is 20 cent per annum on a weekly 1Japer. 

The e papers weigh about 2 ounces, so that 52 papers weighing 104 ounces are now carried through the mails at 20 cents or a trifle over 3 cents a. pound. This bill reduces the postage on new papers to 1-l cents a pounu, or $30 a ton, to be distributed all over the United 

States. In other word ,it is a reduction in the rate of postage on news- papers to one-half. The postage on perioilicnJ.s is by a omewhat diferent scale; the preci e rate I am not able to state, but no doubt the 

Senator from Louisiana can tell. 

Mr. WEST. ThTee cents . Mr. SHERMAN. I mean the old rate on periodicals and large magazines. , Mr. WEST. The same, three cents. 

:Mr. SITERl\IA.N. The proposition now is to fix the rate of postage 

at 1t cents a pound on newspapers and at 3 cents a pound on periodicals. On both the reduction is about one-half. To reuuce the 

rate of postage on newspapers at this time, when we are looking 

around for new sources of revenue, when our expenses m·e ·oming 

close to our receipts, seems to me a most unwi e mersure, improvident, 

and unjustifiable in every sense of the term. I cannot therefore 

consent to it. 

In the amendment ent to the House the Senate propo ed a rate of 

postage of 4 cent a pound on all newspapers and periodicals alike, 

which was perhap a very slight advance on the present rate, but it was a uniform rate and therefore much preferablerate either to the House or the rate now in force. The present rate does not <le_llend upon the 

size or wei~ht of the paper but is eqnal to from 3 to 4 c nts n. pouml; 

therefore tne proposed rate of 4 cents a pound prepaid would be a slight advance on the existing rate of postage. I would ha.ve agreed 

witl;l great pleasure to a uniform rate of 3 cents a pound on books, 

newspa1Jors, and periodicals; for it was not the purpo e of the Senate 

to either increase or diminish the rate, but only to substitute a pecific uniform rate to be prepaid like all other postage. 

Ferhaps Senators have not all of them been familiar '\Vith the 

question of the rate of posta.O'e. If you compare the rate of po tage on newspapers with letters, the comparison is very striking indeed. 

We now charge for letters at the rate of 96 cents a pound. For a half-ounce of letter matter we charge 3 cent . So that t.he rate 

proposed on newspapers is one-sixtieth of the rate of letter postage. 

The old rate was abont one-thirtieth part. Another thing: the total revenues of the Postal Department are now 23,000,000 a year. The revenue collected from newspape1·s is "'1,000,000 or le ; the postage . on letters $22,000,000; so tha.t out of the whole mass of our revenue for postage only one-twenty-t.hird is furnished from printed matter, 

while the printed matter is 0 per cent. of the whole mail matter. 

Mr. WEST. Not the newspaper matter. 

Mr. SHERMAN. The printed matt-er. 

Mr. WEST. Printed matter and matter of the third clas , including 

all seeds and merchandise, which is quite a large percent.:'1ge, amounts 

to that. 

Mr. SHERMAN. EYen newspaper matter is something over 80 

per cent. I wish Senators to bear in mind that thf' present weight of 

newspapers alone going through the mail is four-fifth!:! of the entire 

mail in weight, so that if yon divitle the expenditures of the Postal 

Department, now amounting to twenty-nine millions, in proportion 

to the weight between letter and printed matter, the printed matter . including new paper ought to pay 26,000,000 and the written matter ought to pay 3,000,000, while the actual fact now is that the letter: matter pays twenty-two millions and th printed matter pays less than a million, so gro is the pre ent discrimination in favor of 

newspapers. Incleed the amount collected on newspapers do s not 

pay for the mere expense of delivering them. It does not pay one- fourth of the expense of the railroad transportation. It does not pay one-seventh of the expense of the postmasters of the country alone. 

It is so gross, so disproportionate as finally to have e.x.citeG. the attention of the country. To correct that the Senate proJlOsecl slightly to 
18"74. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5347 

increase the rate of postage on newspapers and also to require it to 

be prepaid. 

Not only are the newspapers carried at this grossly disproportionate 

rate to the letter mail, but they have always had heretofore the 

franking privilege in the most offensive form; that is, newspapers are carried without prepayment, the postage to be collected at the 

other end of the line. Every publisher of a newspaper could frank 

the whole edition of his newspaper without paying a cent of postage, 

the postaRe being supposed to be collected at the other end of the line. 

Mr. WEST. Generally it was not collected. 

1\fr. SHERMAN. That was a pdvilege granted only to the publishers of newspapers. Any priva.te citizen who sent any newspaper or book or other printed matter had to prepay the postage at a much 

larger mte, and anybody, however poor, however difficult it might be 

for him to find the means for doing it, was compelled always to 

prepay the postage on either written or printed matter at a largely 

increased rate, while the newspa.per publishers sent their mail matter 

practically free, or to be collected at the other end of the line. The 

result was that while the posta~e on newspapers should have been 

$2,700,000, the whole amount rece1 ved by the Government of the United 

States was only about $340,000. Two-thirds of the actual postage 

levied by law,upon newspapers never gets into the revenues of the 

General Government, but is eit-her wasted by the failure to collect it or the fa.ilure of postma.sters to return the a.mounts collected. Therefore it has been proposed to a.dopt a system of prepayment of postages, which is the rule as to all other postal matter in every other 

country that I know of. 

It has thus far been found impossible to secure a system of -prepayment of postage, and now this imple measure of equity and justice 

is opposed unless the rat.e of postage be enormously reduced. I wa not prepared for one, and am not now, to vote for a reduction of 

newspaper postage so gross as this, while at the present rates the 

postage on written matter is thirty times as great as it is on printed 

matter, and while the printed ma.tter now only yields to us $1,000,000 

of revenue to .22,000,00v collected on letters, though the actual cost 

of carrying that mail matt.er is at lea.st $14,000,000. If you make 

due allowances for the difference between printed and written matter ·and count the whole mass of printed matter as only costing as much as the whole mass of written ma,tter, the cost of carrying news- papers and pamphlet.s through the mails would be $14,000,000. In 

truth and in fact the mass of written matter does not cost as much 

to transport it as the whole mass of printed matter. We know it 

does not cost one-fourth as much, because it only bears the relation in 

weight of 1 to 10. 

Under these circumstances it seemed to me but right and just that 

the postage on newspapers should be prepaid without a reduction of 

the rate. The publishers ought to be willing to accede to that. They 

should pa.y some small proportion of tlre e}.-pense to the United States 

of carrying their printed ma,tter through the mail. When I offered 

the proposition the other day in the Sena,te to ma.ke a uniform rate 

of 4 cents a pound on newspapers I did not dream tha.t I was ex- citing such indigna.tion of interestecl parties or trea,ting of a very 

delicate question. 'Ve ha-d been in the ha,bit of levying taxes on the people, fixing rates of postage, dealing with great questions 

affecting the rights and intere ts of the whole people, and no com- plaint was made. The people f!UStained us if we did about what was right. But the very moment the proposition was made to make the 

newspapers pay one-fifth pM't of the actual cost of carrying their 

merchandise through the mails, that moment. a great clamor was made. 

When I submitted that proposition I had no conception that my 

motives would be impugned; that I would be charged ·with doing 

this thing out of spite or to punish somo one; or that all n,t once I was to be a sailed and arraigned by telegraph and press as guilty of some high crime or misdemeanor. Sir, all t.his is sheer folly. I may 

have made a, mistake, but I think not, and am not likely to be deterred from doing a. plain duty by any kind of clamor. It was with me a purely revenue question, the measure being proposed in the 

hope to derive some little more revenue from carrying printed matter through the mail, so that it should be required at least to pay 

about one-fifth of the cost of carrying it. But it seems the House 

of Representatives took a different view and thought the rate was too hi~h, and insist upon a rate of 1t cents a pound. 

England h:tS adopted a cheap-postage system and was the first to 

adopt it. They charge 1d., or 2 of our cents, for carrying a letter; 

they charge t£l., or 1 cent, for carrying a newspaper. They charge one-half as much for carrying a newspaper as they do for carrying a letter, while under the operations of this bill the charge for carrying a newspaper through the mail, if sent from the office of publication, is only one-fifth of one cent, though weighing two ounces; 

while if you carry a letter it is three cents, though weighing but half an ounce. This discrimination in favor of newspapers it seems to me is. enormous and tmjust. 

Mr. RAMSEY. The Senator should recolleat that England formerly 

had a stamp duty on newspapers and no postage at all. They ha,ve 

now abolished the stnmp duty and in lieu of it put on the postage mte. 

Mr. SHERMAN. Every newspa.per that goes through the mails, 

the London Times and every other newspaper in England, ha-s to pay one half penny. 

Mr. RAMSEY. I admit that; but that is in lieu of the stamp duty 

theretofore imposed. 

. 

1\fr. SHERl\iAN. It is for postage. 

Mr. RAMSEY. It is a revenue in lieu of the stamp duty which 

they abolished. That is one reason it is so high there. 

1\Ir. SHERMAN. Very well; but the postage on newspapers there 

is tel. or 1 cent, while we propose to reduce it down to t of a cent, 

while we leave letter postage at 3 cents.· 

Under the proposed rates the difference between letter postage and 

newspa-per postage is so enormous as to naturally excite attention. 

As I said before, when I first made this proposition a,ml it was voted 

una,nimously by the Senate there was no talk here but that lt was a, 

simple, pure 1·evenue measure; and yet the very next morning 

brought back to us accounts in the newspapers that the Senat-e, es- pecially Senator SHEmiAN, out of spite, had been striking at the 

newspapers! Mr. President, I havA no quarrel with the newspapers. 

The great body of the newspapers have always treated me, so far as I know, with great kindness; and if any of them have treated me unkindly or unfairly, generally other newspapers took a different 

view and came to my relief. I ha.ve no qua,rrel with the newspapers.. • My whole efiort in this matter ha.s been simply to impose a reason- able rate of postage on newspa,pers in view of the present condition 

of the country. The idea, now in our present condition, when we are levying p.ew taxel'l, 'Yhen we are compelled to cut down all branches 

of our service, reducing our expenses in all Departments-the idea 

that now we should repeal one-ha,lf the rate of postage on news- pa.pers, which now do not pay more than one-lifth the cost of transporting them, it seems to me is trifling wit.h a great subject and it 

ought not to be yielded, and· I for one will not do it·. 

1\Ir. President, a great deal of comment has IJeeu made upon the 

proposition of the Senator from Now Jersey [Mr. FRELINGHUYSE~] 

to carry a public docnment through the mails at25 cents. With some hesitation we put the minimum cha,rgo on public documents at 25 

cents. We made an inquiry and we found that a public document, on the .average, weighed 2 pounds; so that the rate proposed by the 

Senator from New Jersey was 12t cents per pound; that is, we were required to pay, or anybody who received a document from us was required to pa.y, postage at the rate of 12t cents per pound; and yet in 

that sa,me bill it is proposed to charge newspapers only at the rate 

of 1t cents per pound, or at the rate of 3 cents for newspaper matter 

equal to a public document. In this report the committee have re- duced the rate of postage on public documents to 10 cents and require us to prepay it. A document published at public expense at the Public Printing Office, before it can be sent by us to our constituents;must, 

under this report, be prepaid at the mte of 10 cents, or 5 cents a pound. Even this ra,te I regarded too low, and yet now it is proposed 

to carry newspapers by the pound at 1t cents; and I am arraigned 

for propo ing to charge 4 cents a. pound, or about one-fifth of the 

actual cost of the service to the United States. 

l\fr. WEST. Is the Senator exactly stating the ca,se fairly' A 

newspaper is not a bound book. We are to pay on public documents 

that are bound 10 cents per document; that is,·s cents per pound; 

but the Senator knows very well tha.t there is a provision in this 

report that if t.he documents are unbound they sha,ll only pay the 

sa,me rate as newspapers. 

1\Ir. SHERMAN. When you pay by weight, wha,t is the difference 

between bound or unbound documents Y Printe(l ma,tter sent from 

any printing office in this country can be carried from Sa,n Fran- cisco to New York or ice versa at $30 a ton, or 1t cents a pound less 

than the cheapest freight by rail between these points ; and yet if 

tha.t same information is put in the form of a public document sent 

by us, the postage, to be prepaid by us, costs 5 cents a pound. Sir, 

you might as well a bandon all postage on newspapers. If there 

is not courage enough in Congress to deal with this question of a fair 

rate of postage on newspa,pers, I would far rather carry in the mails 

newspapers fre than pretend to collect at the rate of 1t cents per 

pound, which is totally inadequate. If we dare not provide for a . reasonable rate let us make the newspapers free at once. If it is neces- sary for the United Sta,tes to distribute newspapers to disseminate 

information among the people, why charge anything¥ Why put tho 

publishers to the trouble to weigh their merchandise unless you mean to cha,rge them a rea.sonable rate for the service you do them Y . Again, sh·, why discriminate against pamphlet-s Y The pamphlets are the selected litera.ture of the day, the winnowings of the chaff. 

They are charged by this bill at the rate of 3 cents per pound. 

Why this discrimination' Why discriminate against pamphlets a.nd 

in favor of newspa,pers' Is there any reason for it f If your object 

is to disseminate information, then pamphlets are a much better form 

of current intelligence and should be favored rather than charged 

double; v.nd yet here is a discrimination of one-half. 

It seems t.o me this whole proposition is based upon the idea that we must carry the mail for the benefit of the newspapers. It has 

been said that if we make the rates too high the newspapers will be 

CM"ried by the express companies. Why, sir, to the extent that express companies carry newspapers it is a relief to the Treasury. Our 

Post-Office Department would be more than self-sustaining if threefourths of the new5papers were canied by express companies. The 

only reason why we have a. deficiency, increasing year by year until now it amounts to $8,000,000, is because we carry the newspapers through the mails without charge or with an insufficient charge. If 

there wa.s l'· reasonable charge put upon newspapers our Post-Office 

Department would be self-sustaining. If we put onne"'spapers one-
5348 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD~ JUNE .22, 

half of the mte levied in England the Department would he self- sn t.alning. The real secret of the ueficiency in our po tnJ. revenue is that we make no charge on newspapers worth naming; that is, we carry nine-tentllS of tho mail for $1,000,000, while the carrying of the 

whole mail costs ns $20,000,000. Is this right~ Have we no power 

to correct it 

Complaint was made that in my proposition to the Senate the other 

day the time for the taking offect of this amendment was not fixed. 

It was fixed. That was a misrepre entation. In the very amendment I ofi'ered it wa fixed for the 1st of January next. I handed the 

proposition to the Senator from Minnesota [Ml'. RAMSEY] to offer it, 

and he did offer it. 

Now, Mr. President, it does seem to me the Senate of the United 

States, under the present circnll1Stanves, mi<Yht very properly recom- mit this report :111d levy a, uniform rate on all printeu matter of about 

3 cents a pound. In the proposition adopted by the Senate we put 

it at 4 cents a pound, because that was slightly in advance of the 

present rate, but only a mere fraction; but if the 1·ate was fixed at. 3 

cents a pound, the newspapers and printed matter would yield a rev- . enne of from three to four million and. .to some extent make good 

the deficiency in the postal ervice. · To show you that tho public pres have not annually concurred in 

the clamor made about this amendment, Ide iretosayihave receiveu 

both telegrams and letters fTom intelligent pu l>lishers iu this country 

who not only do not complain, but ay this is right, and if the public are to pass on this question, they will ~ay it is right. There is no good reason why the commodities of newspapers shouhl be can-ied through 

the mail unless they pay some proportion of the cost. I am happy 

to ay I have here a letter from a. very respectable member of the 

press, the publisher of a well-known weekly newspaper. In speaking 

of the rate propo ed in the Honse bill, li cents, he says: Your rate of 4 cents is far better, and that will bring country papers down as fol· 

lows : oz. It x 52 x 4 cents-19! cents-for an ~~verage paper of an ounce and a. half. 

That is, 52, the number of is ues in a year, multiplied by lt, the 

nnmber of ounces, gives 78 ounce , or le s than 5 pounds; which 

at 4 cents a pound makes 19t cents. That is the cost of postage of a weekly paper for a year weighing lt ounce , which i t.b.e oruinary 

weight, at the mt~ of 4 cents, while under the pre eut law it is 20 

cents. The present law makes the rate of postage on country pa,pers a little higher than 4 cents on an ordinary weekly paper; but when 

you take the great weekly papers pnbli bed in the metropolitan cities, 

they weigh more, and consequently the present rate upon them is 

only about :l cents a pound. Taking the average country weekly 

papers published in cities of twenty thousand inha.bitants and less, 

the present rate is 4 cents a pound. 

Then he goes on : · As an illustration, my own paper is printed on paper that weighs 40 pounds to the ream, and while it is nowbein17 run through the pr ss I find that 11 damp sheets 

weigh a pound. This brings the postage on my paper, which is ~ by 38 inches, on 40-pound paper, at 4 cents per week, to 19 cents a year1 and my paper is above the 

average. Now, even incluiling wrappers, your rate will rea.lly bring the average on country papers below the present rate of 20 cents a year. This ought to be more generally known. 

Now, Mr. President, why should not this be done 7 Why should 

not the newspapers be willing to bear some portion of the expense of 

transporting their product through the ma.ils' Remember this is 

not a tax upon newspapers. We are not now levying a tax on news- papers. There is no tax whatever levied on a newspaper. They pay no tax to the General Government, and we do not charge them even now more th:tn one-tenth of the a-ctual cost of transporting their com- modities, and this report proposes to reduce that one-tenth down to 

one-twentieth, and all because we require them to prepay their mail 

matter! · Sir, ·publishers of newspapers. are like all other men. They are governed in the main by their interest.s. 'l'hey are generally honorable men, engageu in an honorable calling. I have not one word to 

say against the public pre . I believe the public pre~:>s of our day 

and generation is .stronger, better, and purer than it has been in 

former times, although it is still subject to great abuses. The public 

press is a great power in this country. No public man would seek to 

engage in a contest with them. The danger js not tba.t we would do 

anything to spite them, but the danger is that in. fear of their power we will not do om· duty to the country. 

Now, sir, when the new::~paper pre ·s were called upon to prepay 

their postage they complained a great deal about it; but public 

sentiment had gradually so developell itself that it wa felt to be the 

iixed law that they had to prepay their postage like other people who n e the public mail. The Postma tar-General has for years requested us to pass a law requiring newspaper postage to be prepaid, and public opinion has so developed ibself that finally t.he publishers of the 

country have been compelled to yield to that public sentiment; but 

while yielding they demanded a reduction in the rate of postage. 

Why so f Why should the amount of postage, now totally inadequate, be reduced No good reason can be given for it. 

Why, sir, if thls question is looked upon as it affects the public at 

large, there is nor a on why the newspap r pre s should not pay the 

whole cost of carrying their mail matter. The general dis1;ribution 

and dis emination of newspapers throughout the country is undoubtedly useful; no man would desire to interfere with that; bnt is it 

unjust to charge them but one-fifth of the cost of the labor done for 

themt • 

I hope, therefore, although the e are the ln.st hom·s of the session, 

the Senate will pause anu consider well before they make thi large 

reduction in the rate of po tage. Let us at least eek another confer- ence with the House of Repre entatives on the subject. I believe a 

uniform rate of 3 cents a. pound on all printed ma,Her, pamphlet new~papers, and periodicals would yield a considerable-revenue, woultl 

not mcrease the present rate of postase, and would be of vast enrice 

to the country. The newspapers mignt complain a while, but I hope we all da.re to do our duty whether complaints come from one quarter or another. I at lea t shall not vote to concur in this conference 

report. . 

Mr. WEST. The very little attention that the Senate has given to 

the enator who baa just poken would haruly encourage me to think 

I can command it:s at~ent.ion; but I do not think the Senate on~ht 

to be asked by a comnntteeof conference to vote for a proposition t.nat 

they have seen proper to submit, when it is contested by oue member 

of that committee without its being supported by the other member~. 

The Senator from Ohio admitted away his whole ca. e very early 

in his argument. He said yon could not secme the prepayment of 

this postag-e unle s you reduced the rate. That is the Senator's propositi?n. He stated it distinctly. That is the experience of all po tal 

semce, and the Senator has stated it correctly. vVhat is his proposition 'f His proposit.ion is to raise the rate and to insist on prepayment. The rate now IS three cents. The Senator's propo ition is to 

make it four cents and in ist on prepayment. The committee wantell 

prepayment, and in order to get that prepayment we had to reduce 

the rate, but we did not reduce it, as the Senator say , from four to one and a half cents uniformly on all new papers. Reau the recommenun,-

tion of the committee ill'! it is pre ented here. One and a half cents on all newspapers published as oft-en as once a week, ::mel three cents on all published less frequently than once a week. That is the proposition; so that the great bulk of your newspaper~:; t;hronghout the 

country are charged three cents. 

Mr. SHERMAN. All the daily papers one and a half cents. 

l\Ir. WEST. I admit that; but take the majorit.y of publications 

in this country, and you will find the majority of them are in the other 

cia s. 

Mr. SHERMAN. I assure the Senator he is mistaken. Ninety-nine 

one-hundredtllS of the newspapers are published at least as often as once a week. · · 

Mr. WEST. I ao not think I am mistaken. There are a rrreat many 

semi-monthlies and a great many monthlies and periodica1 . Mr. SHERMAN. Periodicals are but a small proportion compared 

with the daily and weekly papers. 

Ml·. WE T. Very well. Now, the Senator says there i a falln.cy 

in reducing the rates of postage when we are requiring prepayment 

of postage. The fallacy is simply this: by insisting on prepayment we recover what the Government does not get. T~e total postage on all newspape: matte~ now throughout the country 1s $3,000,000 ; only 

1,000,000 of It goes mto the Treasury. By the prepayment propo ition you will get more, and a good deal more, of it. 

}!r. SHER:\iA.N. According to what my friend ~:mys we hall get a million and a half, and the newspapers will save a million and a half. . Mr. WEST. I never heard such a proposition cominO' from the 

chairman of the Committee on Finance, that by the imposition o:{ 

duty on an artiole, that duty came ont of the importer. That i the 

Senator's proposition here, that by imposing a duty on new pap rs, 

reqUiring prepaid postage on them, it come out of the newspapers. 

It comes out of the people who pa.y the postage ou the newspapers, 

just a much as the tariff on sugar comes out of the man who con- sumes it. 

~· SHERM:AN. The people pay now $2,700,000 for postage ex- cepting what 1.8 not collected, and the postmasbers get some of it. 

The Government gets but $900,000. · . Mr. RAMSEY. Over a million last year. 

}.fr. WEST. The Senator complains that the newspapers carried 

throughout this country only pay $3,000,000. His proposition i · to 

make them pay four millions. The great discrepancy. b tween the 

cost of newspaper mail and po~t-office mail he only proposes to en-· croach upon -to the extent of 1,000,000; whereas we contend that unuer this reduced rate of postage we hall collect more than three 

out of four cents, and the Post-Office Department is of that opinion. 

Why 'f Becan e if you compel them to pay four cents, they will re ort 

to express companies on bort hauls, where we would gain au advantage at one and a half, n.ud throwoutheDepartmentthe wholewei~ht 

of their long hauls away into Oregon and California. That is the 

difference . . 

But, sir, I am convinced that the Senate is dispo ed to stand by the 

report of the committee. I~ is made in a.ccordanco with the views of 

the Post-Office Department, and is also made in accordance with the 

views of the House of Repre entative , the bouy mo t r cently com- ing from the people; and I do not think it worth while to detain the 

Senate any long ron t~e subject. 

.Mr. MORRILL, of Milline. I am very sorry not to. be able to cont cur in the action of the committee of conference on thi bill; 1mthere are certain principles I think so clearly to be ob erved in matters of this kind, that I cannot see my way clear to do it. Thi is a. reduction of the postage heretofore paid on newspapers. 

Mr. WEST. A reduction of one-half on what was aase eel and not 

collected. 
.CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. It is a reduction of one-half of the post- . a~e heretofore charged upon newspapers. Can anybody answer to 

h1mself or the country or anybody else why that should be done now T 

Has anybody stated any reason why that reduction should be made? 

When the expenses of this Department· are increasing so largely, when 

your revenues are running behind 30,000,000, and you will have on the day when this fiscal year goes out $30,000,000 of uefi.ciency, is this a good time to do that¥ Is it tho patriotic sense of the newspaper 

press of this country that it i a good thing to do, to relieve themselves at this time of one-half the burden which should fall equitably 

and honestly and fairly u11on them in the transaction of their busi- ness on rates which were always very low, and that this is the time 

to do that thing Does my honorable friend from Minnesota [Mr. 

RAMSEY] who has charge, so far as the Senate is concerned, of the . Post-0 ffice Department, think he is to sustain the credit of that Department by allowing such a thing as this to be done at this time f 

Sir, what is this service f From the beginning we have levied a . tax on this service, for its support chiefly; and now you propose to 

relieve that part of the service which contributes more than eighty 

hundredths part of the entire burden, so that what it contributes will 

be rrierely nominal. My honorable friend from Minnesota, the chair- _.ruan of that committee, tells you that we only collected 1,072,000 

from the newspaper press of the country as the rate stood befo1·e, 

and now yon reduce it one-half. 

Mr. President, the newspaper press of this country cannot afford to 

accept any such proposition as that. While you are putting $22,000,000 

upon the people of this com1try who pay letter-postar-re it is a public 

indecency to say that you will only collect less than :1,000,000 upon 

that service which contributes more than eighty hundredths of the 

entire burden. I am amazed that the House of Rep,re entative , if 

it is true, as my honp.rable friend who has charge of this bill represents, should insist upon any such thing at the present time; and it seems to me the Senate of the United States will be wanting in ordinru·y self-respect to allow any such thing as that to be done under 

any circumstances that I can conceive of. . What earthly reason is there for it f The newspaper press of the 

country do not appeal to anybody for this that I know of. They have 

not asked it; and J, have too exalted an opinion of the newspaper 

press of this country to believe that they desire any such thing as this. Do the newspaper press of this country want their papers to 

go through the mails free f .Are they willing to impose a burden 

upon the people of this country and to allow a deficiency of many 

millions to be paid out of the Treasury that their papers may go 

free Y I do not believe any such thing. I have seen no newspaper 

anywhere tJ1at asked auy. uch thing. I am sure there has been no representative here in their behalf that they desired any such thing. 

Reluctant as I am, Mr. President, to postpone or dolay the business 

of the session, I should regrei extremely that the Senate of the United 

State shouJd allow itself to do any such thing as is proposed by the 

adoption of this conference 1·eport. 

Mr. RAMSEY. I a.m surprised at the course of the honorable Senator from faine, the eli .irm::m of the Committee on Appropriations. 

It is notorious that in all time it has been impo sible to collect the 

).10 tage upon newspapers, no matter how high the charge was. In 

your policy pm'Sued in general commerce you very often reduce your 

duties for the pmpo e of breaking down smugglin~ .and really getting a revenue from an article. So you should do in.: this case. Notwith- standing every effort has been made the Government has only-received 

for the transportation of the immense masS of newspapers published 

in this country $900,000, and finally last year it rose to '·1,072,000. 

.The true policy of the administration of tl..te Post-Office Department 

is to insist upon prepayment in every possible instance, even although 

yon do reduce your postages. Now, with the certainty of making out 

of this reduced postage by insisting on prepayment $3,000,000, which 

is the estimate of the Post-Office Department, I think the Senate 

ought not to hesitate to accept this new rule as established by the 

report of the committee of conference, yielding to the determined 

,POsition of the House of Representatives on the subject. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. 0, the House of Representatives! What 

'hru that to do with the duty of the Senate 'f 

Mr. RAMSEY. :I'he great thing is to secure prepayment. 

1\11·. MORRILL, of Maine. My honorable friend expresses some surpri e that I should oppose this proposition, and says I know or ought to know that the Department have only been able to collect 

ftom ·seven hundred thousand to one million dollars out of the two 

and '.1 half millions which they ought to have had from newspaper 

)lo ·tage. I should like to know how long my honorable friend ha-s 

known that, and I should like to know how long he has delayed to 

pmform his dnty to see that some method had been proposed here by 

which that evil could have been remedied. · Mr. RAMSEY. Prepayment is the remedy. l'l.fr. MORRILL, of Maine. Why has it not been done, if the honor- able Senator is aware of the fact'? 

Mr. RiliSEY. "Better late than never." 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. So it is; but it does not follow because 

there bas been lacues or neglect somewhere iu that particular, that we are to take off one-half the tax ou that amount. '\Vbo ha-s asked 

it f The newspaper press hns not asked it. Nobody bas asked it. If 

it is a boon proffered to thcso people, it is a very cbea.p performance in my judgment. You will get no thanks for it. Nobouy wants it. 

The newspapers of this country do not want to be forced through the 

mails free. They cannot afford to have it done, nor can the people 

of this country afford to allow it to be done, in my judgment. 

Mr. President, there is no apology under heaven for such a proposttion a-s this while the people of thi country ar~ borne down by ta.xe , while your revenues are running short, while everybody knows now that you are trying to eke them out by a proposition reported here 

by my honorable friend from Ohio, which I will ·not characterize as I believe it ought to be, eking out at the rate of 2,000,000 taxes 

when we know that we are running behind 10,000,000, and making no effort to increase the taxes at all adequate to our demands, and 

then in this style cutting down the sources of your revenue when no- body asks it. For one I protest against it. 

Mr. FERRY, of Michigan. I should like to put a question to the 

Senator. Does he not consider it is a gain to establish the principle or policy of prepayment on p~pers as well as letters We have 

already established that upon letters. Would it not be a gain on newspapers T . Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. Undoubtedly it would be a gain; but is 

that a question to be compromised f Are we so impotent, are we so weak, are we so fat gone, that we cannot lay an hone t tax on any 

interest in this country without a king the parties who are taxed! 

Can we not say that the tax which they have been paying and which 

i small, which is only about one-fifth of the amotmt put upon the 

poor meu of this country, shall be prepaid without being humiliat cl 

by the idea that we have got to compromise that question f I woulu 

abandon the whole of it before I would agree to tllat. Mr. FERRY, of Michigan. I have one more question to put. The 

Senator has responded that it would be a gain to that ext~ut; it would 

be 3Ji ad vantage to change the system on newspapers and make it agree 

with the system on letters. Now, I put another and a· practical question to the Senator : I ask him if it would not be far better to adopt' a ~ystem that collec~s all its postage rather than as ess a postage which 18 not collected Y 

As stated by the Department, the present rate assessed, when col- lected at the point of delivery, falls far short of _the amount now propo ed to be assessed by p1·epayment. I ask the Senator, and repeat my 

question as a practical one, is it not far better when we have a system of prepayment to a.rri,ve at an amount that we know is definite; 

and then if we find there is a large deficiency we can regulate that 

hereafter 'f 

:Mr. 1\IORRILL, of Uaine. The same spirit which yields this now will yield it forever. That is my answer to all that. Nobody has 

suggested any necessity for it. It is just as easy to put the tax at 

three cents, where it was before, as it is to put it at one and a half 

cents. It is optional with Congress. Nothing on earth stands in t.he 

way of it. 

Mr. FERRY, of Michigan. The difficulty has been this : the Postmaster-General in his estimate in presenting his claims to Congre ·s for appropriations has predicated them on the collection of postage 

at the point of delivery; and it has not been until the close of the 

fiscal year that the deficit has become apparent. · Npw, I say as a practical question it is far better that we shonld adopt a system that 

speaks for itself upon its face o that when the Po tmaster-Genera.l 

makes hi report here he may know what he will get, not what ho 

expects, but what really he does get. So the adoption of the propo ition now before the Senate is coming bnck to the better :policy of 

proyiding for prepayment; and if, as has been said, it shall be found. 

that the rate is too low we can hereafter fix it, because then it is determinate and we know just where we stand. . 

The ~reat difficulty i.~ that a year ahead we expect weare to derive a certarn revenue, and at the clo e of the year we find we have not 

received what we supposed wa-s our due. I n other words, your postmasters in the little offices are compelled by force of .circumstances 

to donate this postage, and even pay it sometimes out of their own pockets rather than be troubled with these little driblets. A.ny man who has observed this process of collecting in small amounts the 

quarter's postage on newspapers must know that the postmasters ar~ 

driven either to ignore their duty or to pay it themselves. It is far 

easier to roll the responsibility on the Government than to take it 

out of their pockets on a :JD,ere .. salary of twelve dollars per annum sometimes. · Mr. WEST. Mr. Pre ident, I know that the Senate is impatient on this subject, but I think one proposition has been broadly and unwarrantably asserted by the Senators who oppose the adoption of 

this report that ought not to go without refutation ; and that is that 

this yielding of the rate is in re ·ponse to the demand of the news- papers. The Senators could with the samo propriety say that a re- duction of the tariff on any imported article was .a yielding to the • threats or the menaces of the importers. 1 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. I have disclaimed tha.t I have said dis- · tinctly that I heard no desire on their part for it. 

Mr. SHERMAN. .Allow me to sta,te that when I submitted the 

proposition I clid not ·believe that the large papers of the country 

would oppose it. I thought their sense of justice would see the propriety of it. . 1\fr. WEST. Then it is intimated tha,t we are reducing the tax on newspapers, and that that is the motive of the committee. Now, sir, 

it must be self-evident to any man who knows anything about it 

tha.t the postage is not to be paid by the new'3papers. The posta.ge 
5350 .CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 22, 

is going to come out of the public. There is where all postage comes from. We are trying this experiment whether we cannot collect more postage out of the public by this process than by the one in 

vogue. 

Mr. SCOTT. :M:r. President, there is another feature of the report as I heard it read 3.t"the table that has thus far elicited no comment; 

it is the last section incorporated •by the conference committee, and 

which provides, if I apprehend it aright, that each public document, 

without reference to its weight, shall be carried in the mail at ten 

cents. 

:Mr. RA:M:SEY. Prepaid. 

:Mr. SCOTT. Prepaid, provided it be franked with the name of the 

President, the head of a Department, or the member of Congress cer- tifying it is a public document, and that frank makes it presumptive 

evidence that it is a public document. 

Now, Mr. President, that is a feature which I think is a little more reprehensible than any one we have had yet proposed on this bill, either 

in the Senate or in the House. I suppose the CONGRESSIONAL RECORD 

of this session will make up about six or seven volumes of the ordinary size, and each. volume will weigh from three to five pounds; so that that work will go through the mail at ton cents a volume. The 

Smithsonian Repo1·t will go for ten cents; the Agricultural Report 

for ten cents; Raymond's report for ten .cents; these three books, 

all together not weighing as much as one volume of the CoNGRESSIONAL RECORD. That is the equality in postage which is introduced 

by this bill, and that is a restoration of the franking privilege by 

moieties and driblets in that form. 

I have heretofore said that I should vote for no kind of insidious 

approaches toward the restoration of the fmnking privilege. I will 

not a~ee to get back to it by sapping and mining, for the purpose of 

reaching it, hke a mole. If we want it, come out in the daylight and 

say so; restore it pure and simple, and not impose this inequality of 

burdens. If there is a man willing to take the CO.NGRESSIONAL RECORD and at the other eml of tile line pay for it let him pay the 

freirrht that is necessary to carry it through the mJ.ils. Upon many 

of tte lines the transportation of the postal cars is chargeu for by 

weight, and thus we shall have on some of the lines public documents carried, charged for by weight by railroad companies, and parties receiving them at less than is charged for caiTying them. That 

is a feature of this report for which, it seems to me, it should be sent 

back if there were no other in it. 

Mr. RAMSEY. The Senator ought to recollect that a conference is a negotiation of two parties. We cannot get everything that we desire. The Senator probably has never been on a committee of con- ference where he got all he desired. In rctmn for this the House 

abandoned the objectionable feature as we thought of pas.<Jing about 

three or four hundred thousand volumes of the Agricultural Report 

entirely free through the mails. It may be increased to a million 

hereafter. They abandoned that. We got the principle concede?- of 

prepayment. You had yourselves allowed documents to pass without prepayment, the postage to be paid at the other end of the line, and 

you would never have got that money, aa you have failed to get your 

money on newspapers. We then insisted on the principle of prepayment. We got them to abandon sending through the mails an im- mense mass of matter for nothing, and we got something in return. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER, (Mr. EDMUNDS in the chair.) The 

question is on agreeing to the report of the conference committee. 

The question being put, there were on a division-ayes 17, noes 16; no quorum voting. 

Mr. WEST. I call for the yeas and nays. 

The yeaa and nays were ordered, and the Secretary proceeded to call 

the roll. 

Mr. HOWE, (when his name waa called.) On t.his question I am paired with the Senator from Kentucky, [:Mr. McCREERY.] If present 

he would vote for agreeing to this report and I should_vote against it. 

The 1·esult was announced- yeas 19, nays 21; as follows: 

YEAS-Messrs. Bayard, Boutwell, Carpenter, Clayton, Conover, Cooper Ferry 

of Michigan, Flanagan, Frelinghuysen, Goldthwaite, Ingalls, Jones, Kelly, LOgan, Morrill of Vermont, Ramsey, Sargent~ Tipton, and West-19. 

NAYS-Messrs. Alcorn, Davis, Edmunds, Gordon, Hamilton of Maryland, Ham- ilton of Texas, Merrimon, Morrill of Maine, Norwood, Oglesby, Patterson, Pease~ 

Pratt, Ransom, Robertson, Scott, Sherman, Sprague, Stevenson, Stockton, ana Wright-21. 

ABSENT-Messrs. Allison, .Anthony, Bogy, Boreman, Brownlow, Buckingham, 

Cameron, Chandler, Conkling, Cragill, Denn1s, Dorsey, Fenton, Ferry of Connecti· 

cut, Gilbert, Hager Hamlin, Harvey, IDt.chcock, Howe, Johnston, Lewis, McCreery, 

Mitchell; Morton, Saulsbury, Schurz, Spencer, Stewart, Thurman, Wadleigh, Washburn, and Windom-33. 

So the report was non-concurred in. 

Mr. RAMSEY . . Now I move that the Senate proceed to the con- sideration of the post-route bill again. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. I move that a further committee be 

asked for on the post-office appropriation bill. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senato1· from Maine moves that 

the Senate further insist on its amendments and on its disagreements 

to the amendments of the House of Representatives, and request another conference on the subject of this bill. 

The motion was agreed to. 

By unanimous consent, the President 1Jro tempm·ewas authorized to 

appoint the committee; :md Messrs. WINDoM, ALLisoN, and DAVIS were appointed conferees on the part of the Senate. 

THE GENEVA AWARD- RECESS. 

l\fr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I rise to make a report from the committee of conference on the Geneva awa.rd bill. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator from New Jersey presents a report which will be read. 

The Chief Ulerk commenced to read the 1·eport. 

l\fr. PATTERSON. I move that the Senate take a recess until eight 

o'clock. · 1\Ir. STEVENSON. I rise to a question of order. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator from South Carolina moves that the Senate take a recess until eight o'clock, and the Senator from Kentucky rises to a question Of order. 

:Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir; to know why the Clerk is reading that 

report-whether it has been taken up. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Clerk is reading the report presented by the Senator from New Jersey from the committee of con- ference on the bill, pending which the Senat.or from South Carolina moves to take a recess till eight o'clock. The question is on the mo- tion of tile Senator from South Carolina. 

Mr. STEVENSON. Before that question is put, I stillhave not the 

point Q.f order I raised answered. · The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Chair cannot entertain the 

question of order at this time because it is not before the S nate. 

The question is on the motion of the Senator from South Carolina. 

1\fr. STEVENSON. I ask theSenato1·to withdraw the motion for a moment. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on the motion of the 

Senator from South Carolina. 

1\Ir. DAVIS. Is it in order to move seven o'cloc:r instead of ei~ht 'f 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. It is in order by the special rule of 

the Senate to move to take a recess at any time. 

Mr. DAVIS. The Senator from South Carolina moves to take a recess till eight o'clock. I think that is too long. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Debate is not in order. 

Mr. DAVIS. Can I not move to amend the motion 'f 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator can move to amend the 

motion. 

l\fr. DAVIS. At the suggestion of Senators, I move to amend by 

saying "half past seven." 

Mr. PATTERSON. I accept the amendment. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on the motion as amended to take a recess until half past seven o'clock. 

The motion was agreed to ; there being on a division-ayes 33, noes 14; and the Senate (at five o'clock and forty-six minutes p.m.) took a recess until half past seven o'clock p.m. 

EVENING SESSION. 

The S~nate reassembled at half past seven o'clock p. m. 

CLERKS OF COl\1MITTEES. 

:Mr. ANTHONY. I offer the following resolution, which is customary at this stage of the session: 

Resolvedl That the Secretary of the Senate be, and he is hereby, authorized to 

pay the sataries of the clerks of committees up to and including the loth of July. 

The resolution was agree<l to. 

ABKANSAB VALLEY RAILWAY. 

Mr. SCHURZ. I would ask unanimous consent to call up a bill 

which is of great importance to the western interests, being House 

bill No. 2884. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I will let the regular order be waived for a moment. 

By unanimous cousent, the bill (H. R. No. 2884) granting the right 

of way through the public lands to the Arkansas Valley Railway 

Company was considered as in Committee of the Whole. 

The bill grants the right of way through the public lands to the 

Arkansas Valley Railway Company, a corporation duly created under 

the laws of the Territory of Colorado, its successors and assigns, for a railroad and telegraph line, now partially completed and in operation from a point on the line of the Kansas Pacific Railway at Kit 

Carson; thence southward to West Las Animas; thence westward 

along or near the Arkansas River to Pueblo, a distance of about one hundred and fifty miles, and within said Territory of Colorado, to 

the extent of one hundred feet in width on each side of the railroad 

where it may pa,ss through the public domain and military reserva- tion at Fort Lyon, including grounds for station-buildings, work-shops, 

depots, machine-shops, switches, side-tracks, turn-tables, cattle-yards, 

and water-stations, to the amount not exceeding ten acres, not mineral-lands, for each-station, and for not more than one station in 

every ten miles. 

:M:r. EDMUNDS. Is there any provision in that bill which limits 

the time within which this railway shall exercise the right granted 'f 

1\fr. SCHURZ. Yes; six months. 

:Mr. EDMUNDS. I should like to have the clause read. 

The PRESIDENT pro tentpore. That part of the bill will be read. 

The Chief Clerk read as follows : 

P.rovided, That within six months from th~passage of this act the said At·kansaa 

Valley Railway Company shall file with the Secretary of ~be Interior a map, to be 

approved by him, exhibiting the line of t.be railroad of saitl company as the same has been loe.1.ted, 
-· 

1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5351 

Mr. BOGY. The road is built all the way through. 

Mr. SCHURZ. I think I can satisfy the Senator from Vermont on that point. 

GEORGE HE~Y PREBLE. 

1\Ir. HAMLIN. While the gentlemen are looking at that matter I 

ask to take up a bill which places Commander Preble a-ccording to 

hi proper position in the Navy. 

By unanimous consent, the bill (H. R. No. 2 92) authorizing t he 

President to appoint George Henry Preble, now a captain on the ac- tive list of the Navy, to be a commodore, was considered as in Committee of the Whole. 

The bill was reported to the Senate without amendment. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I move that th~bt bill be indefinitely postponed, 

and on the motion I wish to say a word. I have no idea that it will 

be postponed, but in order to enter my protest., as I do not want to 

take up time by the takin~ of the yeas and nays, I make this mo- tion. I have heard somethmg about this case, and believing it t6 be a jumping of an officer of the Navy when he ought not to be jumped over the heads of others, my only way now is to move that it be 

indefinitely postponed, so that the Journal shall show so far as I am concerned that I have no band in the business. 

Mr. HAMLIN. Before the question is put I want the attention of 

the Senate for a moment. This bill has twice met the approval of 

the Senate. It only re.stores Commander Preble to the precise position he would be in to-day but for the action of the Secretary of the 

Navy, and that action has been overruled by a board of inquiry. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question is on the motion to 

postpone the bill indefinitely. · The question being put, there were on a division-ayes 17, noes 19; no quorum voting. 

Mr. EDMUNDS called for the yeas and nays, and they were ordered ·; 

and being taken re.sulted-yea.s 14, nays 23; a.s follows: 

YEA.S-Messrs . .Alcorn, Cooper, Edmunds, Frelinghuyt~en, Gordon, Hitchcock, 

McCreery, Robertson, Sargent, Spencer, Stevenson, Thurman, Wadleigh, and 

Wright-14. 

NAYS-Messrs. Bayard,Boreman, Boutwell, Carpenter, Clayton~,.:pavis, Fenton, 

Flanagan, Hager, Hamlin, Ingalls, MeiTimon, Morrill of Ma.me, .llloiTill of Vermont, ~ratt, Ransom, Schurz, Sco'ot, Sherman, Stockton, Tipton, Washburn, and 

Windom-23. 

ABSENT-Me&srs. Allison, Anthony, Bogy, Brownlow, Buckingham, Cameroc, 

Chandler, Conkling, Conover, Cragin, benniS, Dorsey, Ferr:y of Connecticut, Ferry of Micbi!!all, Gilbert, Goldthwaite, H!pllilton of Maryland, Hamilton of Texas, 

Harvey, Howe, Johnston, Jones, Kelly, Lewis, Logan, Mitchell, Morton, Norwood, 

Oglesby, Patterson, Pease, Ramsey, Saulsbury, Sprague, Stewart, and West-36. 

So the motion was rejected. 

The bill was ordered to a third reading, read the third time, and 

passed. ARKANSAS VALLEY RAILWAY. 

Mr. SCHURZ. The objection to the bill (H. R. No. 2884) granting 

the right of way through the public lands to the Arkansa-s Valley 

Railway Company is no longer persisted in, and I ask that it be disposed of. 

The Senate, as in Committee of the Whole, resumed the consideration of the bill. 

The bill was reported to the Senate. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I merely wish to say that that bill ought to con- tain a limitation of time in which the company should exercise this 

right or it should be forfeited; but it is a small' matter, and they say 

the road, is really built so that practically there will be no need of 

that limitation. Therefore I do not insist upon the point; otherwise 

I should think it my duty to see that there should be a limitation. The bill was ordered to a third reading, read the third time, .and 

passed. . 111ESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE. 

A message from the House of Representatives, by Mr. :McPHERSON, 

its Clerk, announced that the House bad agreed to some and disagreed 

to other amendments of t.he Senate to the bill (H. R. No. 3600) making 

appropriations for sundry ciru expenses of the Government for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1875, and for other purpo es, and agreed to 

further amend with amendments, asked a conference on the disagreeing votes of the two Houses thereon, and had appointed Mr. JAMEs 

A. GARFIELD of Ohio, Mr. EUGENE HALE of Maine, and Mr. WILLIAl\I 

E. NIBLACK of Indiana, managers at the same on its part. 

E~ROLLED BILLS SIGNED. 

The message also announced that the Speaker of the House had 

signed the following enrolled bills and joint ·resolutions; and they were thereupon signed by the President pTo tempoTe: · A bill (H. R. No. 3422) for the relief of Mercy Ann Hall, widow of 

Captain Charles F. Hall; 

A bill (H. R. No. 1767) to change the name of the steamboat Kitty 

Strang; 

A bill (H. R. No. 3211) to change the name of the schooner Delmar; 

A joint resolution (H. R. No. 114) to fill a vacancy in the board of 

managers of theN ational Home for Disabled Volunteer Soldiers; and 

A joint resolution (H. R. No. 115) for the relief of certain clerks and 

employes of the United States. 

SUto.TDRY CIVIL APPROPBI.ATIUN BILL. 

The Sen 'tte proceeded to consider the action of the House of Representatives on it.s ~enclments to the bill (H. R. No. 3600) making appropriat.ions for sundry civil expenses of the Government for the fiscal 

year ending June 30, 1875, and for other purposes. 

On motion of 1r. l\10RRILL, of Maine, it was 

R esolved, That the Senate in i~t on its amendment to the said bill disagreed to by the Hou e of Representative , llisa e to the amendments of the House to other amendments of the 'enat-e, and agree to the c.onference a-sked by the House on the 

disagreeing votes of the Houses thereon. 

By unanimous consent, it was 

Ordered, That the conferee on the part of the Senate be appointed by the Presidentpro tempo-re. 

The PRESIDENT pro ternpore appointed Mr. MoRRILL of 1\Iaine, 1\Ir. 

SARGENT, and 1\Ir. STEVENSON. 

JOSEPH WILSON. 

Mr. DAVIS. I move that the Senate proceed to consider the bill 

(S. No. 926) referring the case of Joseph Wilson to the Court of 

Claims. 

The motion was agreed to, and the bill was read the second time 

and considered as in Committee of the Whole. 

The claim of Joseph Wilson, for compensation for mules captured 

by the rebels in July, 1864, in consequence of the refusal of the pickets of the Army to allow him to pass within the lines and deliver the 

mules to the Government on his contract, is by the bill referred to t.he 

Court of Claims for it.s decision according to the law and the practice 

of that court in such cases and proceedings. 

:Mr. SCOTT. I deem it my duty to state that that bill did not re- ceive the unanimous indorsement of the Committee on Claims, and I 

do not think it ought to pa.ss. The party named in the bill had a con- tract with the Government to deliver mules in the city of Washino--

ton. He was endeavoring to fulfill his contract and got his mul~s near to the city of Washington at the time when Early's raid was made upon the city, and an order was issued 1nohibitino- all persons 

from coming inside the picket lines. In consequence h~ mules were detained outside the picket lines, notwithstanding he was ready to 

deliver them, and they were captmed by the enemy. A portion of 

them were recovered, and this bill proposes to send to the Court of 

Claims this ca.se for the pmpose of permitting him to make a claim a~a.inst the Government for those that were not recaptmed. I do not 

d1 cover any difference between this man whose property on the 

way to be delivered to the Government was captured by the enemy 

and that of any other citizen whose property was captured by the 

enemy, and therefore I think it my duty to oppose the passage of the bill. 

Mr. DAVIS. The bill, as the chairman says, was not unanimously 

reported, but pretty nearly so. This mau had a contra-ct to deliver 

the mule.s. If he has no right, the Court of Claims will say so. The 

bill refers it to the comt for decision. 

Mr. BOUTWELL. Is the bill before the Senate f 

The PRESIDENT pTo tentpm·e. It is. 

1\Ir. HOWE. No; the question is on taking it up. 

Mr. SCOTT. That reminds me of another feature in the case. It 

is a contract; and if the party had de.sired to bring himself into the 

Court of Claims he could have done so at any time within six years 

from the time the contract was made. He did not do so, but preferred 

to present his ca.se to Congress. I do not think it is one where Congress ought to grant relief. - Mr. FRE.LINGHUYSEN. As this is going to lead to discussion, I 

call for the regular order and ask for the reading of the report of the 

committee of conference. 

Mr. DAVIS. I did not know that we had any regular order. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I call for the reading of the report of the 

committee of conference, which the Senate was engaged in -,vhen the recess was taken. Mr. DAVIS. This will only take a moment. I only ask a vote. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. If we can have a vote immediately I 

have no objection. 

The bill was reported to the Senate. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempo1·e. Shall the bill be engrossed for a third reading 

The question being put, there were, on a division-ayes 15, noes 21; no quorum voting. - Mr. STEVENSON. I ask for the yea.s and nays. 

The yeas and nays were ordeTed. -

Mr. STEVENSON. I wish to say a single word. This' man, Wilson, 

entered into a contract with the Government for the delivery of a certain number of mule at the city of Washington. He :took all the 

risks and got here upon the edge of the city, just upon the line, ready 

to deliver his mules, and waited there forty-eight hours. In conse- quence of an order of the provost-marshal he was prevented delivering them. The War Department would have paid him this claim ; 

but he went and fulfilled his contract. He does not ask a dollar from 

this Congress. All that he asks is permission to go to the Court of 

Claims and there present his right for an infraction of a covenant 

which he thinks he ha.s suffered by the act of the Government in re- gard to the delivery of these mules. · 

What objection can there be to allowing him to present his claim 

to tho Court of Claims with a right to go to tho Supreme Comt of 

the United States 'f No cla.ss of contracts has been more frequently judicially acted on than this; p,nd but three weeks ago the Senate 

allowed a gentleman to go to the Court ·of Claims whose claim had 

been barred by time. 
5352 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 22, 

Mr. BOUTWELL. Will the Senator inform us why this claimant 

did not go to the Court of Claims within six yearl'l' 

Mr. STEVENSON. I will. Mr. Wilson, wlw is as reputable a man as my State has, came on the advice of my colleague, now dead, Mr. 

Garrett Davis, to Congress, and for several years attempted to get his 

claim through. I believe it passed one House, but I am not certain of 

that; but I am perfectly certain, because Mr. Davis told me so, that a juster claim never was presented in the world. He labored here 

for years and attempted to get ·it through. As we all know, just 

claims frequently are delayed. He is a :i.:umer; he knew nothing 

about the statute of limitations or anything about his rights. Herelied upon his Senator in good faith and he failed; and now ull that 

he asks is to go to the Court of Claims with an appeal to the Supreme 

Court, to have it decided whether the Government broke its contract 

with him. If he has a contract, surely the Senate will not refuse him 

that privilege. 

l\ir. BOUTWELL. The case ha,g this aspect: that this cbimant 

did .not avail himself of his legal right to go to the Court of Claims 

under his contr~J.ct if qe h2.d one, or color of contract if there were colm· of contract, but chose t,o resort to Congress during the period 

of six years; and having failed up to this time he now a ks Congress 

to let him go to the Court of Claims . . That is, he had the right to go 

to the Court of Claims during six years ; he did not avail himself of 

it, and· now he asks to be put out of the usual condition of citizens 

of the country. If he had not the color of contract, then the proposition is to give him n. standing in the Court of Claims which under 

the general law of the country he never had. ' 

Mr. STEVENSON. .And h:lB it come to this, that a Government 

like this will put it.self upon the technicality of defeating an honest 

claim because the man is not a lawyer and did not resort to the Court 

of Claims? 

Mr. BOUTWELL. He had representatives. :Mr. STEVENSON. I say to the Senator from M:lB achusetts-I do 

not know how he voted on that case-that in the claim from North 

Ca.rolina of the sons of Stephen A. Douglas they were allowed to go to 

this court. They had slept on their rights; and yet after the six years 

had expired the Senator, not more than four weeks ago, notwithstanding that they bad been barred by time, passed a bill to u.llow t.hem to 

go to the Court of Claims. Now, sir, do not make fish of one and flesh 

of another. . . I know how pres ed the Senate is for time, and I do not desire to 

take a moment. This bill, it seeJll.S to me, has a precedent in two or three cases, and the W a;r Department itself, as I was informed, would 

bavesentthis claimofitsown motion to theCourtof Claimsbutforthe 

faotthat after this man had brought his m1lies here and waited twentyfour hours ready to deliver them, although they were taJren from 

him be went back at his own cost and bought new mules and brought 

them here and filled his contract; and for that he is to be punished 

because be made a mistake in coming to Congress when the Senate 

themselves have allowed similfir claims to go before the Court of 

Claims. 

Mr. President, if this man has n, just claim, why will Senators "deprive him of the right to go to a judicial tribrrnal Snrely the Supreme 

Court of the United States acting as the court of last resort are able 

to say whether this man has been injured and has a right of action 

against the Government. That is all he a,gks, and I apreal to Senators a they did it in the case from North Carolina so to do it in this case from my State. 

Mr. SCOTT. The reference to another case requires me to say one word more about this case. The case to which the Senator from Kentucky refers, in which the children of Ron. S. A.. Dong las were permitted to go to the Court of Claims, was an entirely different case from 

this. In the first place both of them were minors and were unable 

to go into the Court of Claims for that reason. They had not capacity 

to sue in their own right. In the second place, and the controlling reason why they were permitted to go into the Court of Claims by 

special act, was that another part was claiming before tho Court of 

Claims the same property for which the young Donglases were making a contest, and it became necessary to permit them to go to the Court 

of Claims so that the relative claims of the contesting parties might 

be hoard upon t he evidence before that court. These were the two 

controlling reasons which entirely distinguish that case from the case that is now b~fore us. · I do not place my opposition to this case going to the Court of 

Claims upon the fact that the party could have gone during the ix 

years that be might have brought suit upon his contruct. I put it 

upon the broad ground that this is simply asking to go to the Court 

of Claims for the purpose of recovering compensation for property 

captured by the rebel army. There is the principle-involved. There 

is no distinction between this property ca.ptmed by tho rebel army 

and any other property that was captured by them. Tho fact that 

be was endeavoring to fulfill his contract in good faith makes no differ~nce. If a farmer in driving his mules from Baltimore to Wilmington had had them ca;ptured during that time, we would not think 

of pa.ying hiJn.. This man was in the course of his bn.sine s fulfilling 

his contract, and he met with the misfortune of having his property 

captured and it was not recaptured. There is the broad principle to 

l)e :;ettle(l. in this bill : shall wo pay for property captnrod by t.be 

euomy 'I' "' I say w onght 11ot t.o clo HO. If I conJcl yielclmy convictiuus on this subj · ct for any personal considerations, I would yield them to 

the Senator from Kentucky; but the principle· is too broad and too 

pernicious to receive tha sanction of the Senate without opposition. 

l\Ir. STEVENSON. I deny the fact stat,ed by the Senator that this 

property was taken by re}:lels as au a-ct of war. Mr. ·wilson wa bore on the day he agreed tr<> be here. He waited more thun a day after 

he was be1·e, and there is no principle better settled in contracts than 

that if I make a contruct to deliver property personally on a particular day, and the other party does not receive it and by his own act 

puts it out of my powerto deliver it, he is liable to me. While I bow 

to the distinguished Senator from Pennsylvania as a better lawyer than myself, I propose not to say that be is wrong and that I all\ 

right, but I a,gk the Senate as a matter of justice to leave this question to a cool, calm, judicial court, with the right of appeal to the Supreme Court of the United States; and if they decide that the Senat.or from Pennsylvania is wrong, it seems to me he ought to yield his 

opinion. 

The Senator says that the Dougla,g cla.im was different from this. 

It is the first time I ever heard that infants could not sue. Why could 

not they sue by their guurdian ¥ 

Mr. SCOTT. They had none. .Mr. STEVENSON. The Senator says they bad none. I do not 

know whether they had a,ny or not. I know that the administrator of 

Stephen A. Douglas did come to Congress, did petition Congress, dicl 

ask Congress, and did lose his time, as my constituent is losing his 

in seeking relief. The Senator can-see in that case merit. Sir, I 

woulq vote for that claim, and I would vote for any claim that I b -. lived to be just and right, without regard to the position or standing 

of the claimant. Let it not be said that the distinguished name of one man led the Senate to do an act which they are unwilling to (lo 

for a hard-working, honest, upright man, who brought his property 

here under a contract with the Government, who waited twenty-four 

hours and was then prevented from delivering it by the act of the 

Government itself, and who now a ks not to be paid, but appeals to 

the Senate and says, "Let me go to the Court of Claims; if I have got a case I will get what I deserve; and if I am not entHled to anything, 

I will lose the 20,000 that I invested in carrying out my contract." 

Can it be possible that Congress will say to him," No; we did it in one case, but we will not do it in yours." Senators, be just. Senators, look to no condition or cla.ss of cases. 

Honor and shame from no condition ri. e, Act well your part, there all the honor lies. 

This man is an upright, honest~ plain farmer, in" the county of 

Bourbon, and be appeals to the Congress of his country to allow him 

to go to a court to say whether be has a claim or not, and that cluim 

has a precedent hardly dry upon your statute-books; and I a,gk the 

Senate as an act of justice to gra.nt this request. 

l\fr. EDMUNDS. "Acting well your part," so far as the Senator 

from Kentucky and his pohtical associates are concerned, is to vote 

every time in favor of any species of' cluim growing out of the war by citizens south of Mason and Dixon' · line. I think I speak by the 

record when I say that on every vote which ha,g been taken in the 

Senate since I have been here, for eight years, the part of the Senu,-

tor from Kentucky during his presence and of all his political asso- ciates has been to vote without exception and in solid phalanx, in 

favm.· of every claim _growing out of the war; certainly in favor of 

every claim south of the line I name. Of course they do it from 

patriotic mqtives; they do it upon principle. We all understand 

that. 

But, Mr. President, when you come to look at this particular case, 

it is cutting a little fatter. You will find this bill goes a little fa,r, 

ther, on the face of the bill, (for the eloquence of the Senator from 

Kentucky is not put into the enactment,) than any bill that has ever been presented to the Senate. The Milton Best bill and all 

that class of bills on the face of them profess to be for something 

that the Union Army has taken for its use in one form or another so as to fall within a principle that we all understand. This bill, on the contrary, pnts this man and his property outside of the neutru.l 

lines, and therefore in the country of the enemy. It puts him in 

the attitude of coming from the lines of the enemy, and while com- ing through the lines of the enemy, and while waiting to undergo 

the ceremonies which war required us to have with any people com-. ing within our lines from the other side, his property is capturetl. 

The bill itself settles the questiou for the Court of Claims that +his 

capture was" in consequence of the refusa.l of the pickets of the Army 

to allow him to pa s." He starts in the Court of Claim with our determining that, without knowing anything about it to begin with. 

Then it is a claim "for compen ation for mules captured by t.be 

rebels." It is not for compensation for any act of the Government 

of the United States in violating a contract, but it is "compensation 

for mules captured by the rebels in July, 1 64, in consequence of the 

refusal of the pickets of the Army to allow him to pass within the 

lines, and deliver the mules to the Government on his contract." 

Now, I should be glad to know how this man and his mule~, b~fore 

we send this case to the Court of Claims, came through the r bel 

line ; what information be got there; what information he intended 

to carry buck if he was to ret~·n by the same road he c:tme, as I assume he was. Mr. DAVIS. I will infoTm the Senator that the mules came from 

KeoLtteh.-y, aml were driven in from tiLe Union lines, from Baltimore. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. From where¥ 
f874. CONGRESSIONAL RECDRD. .5353 

\ir. DA. VIS. From Baltimore, in this direction. They came from 

Kentucky. 

Mr. EDUUNDS. So I remember the Union Army was driven in 

from Baltimore at one time, too. 

1\fr. D.A. VIS. .And many other places. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Certainly they were; the Senator is right. We were not able to resist the pressure of his friends at all times, I 

admit. 

Mr. D.A. VIS. If the Senator will allow me, he asked where the 

mules came from, and h e a.id t.h y came from the confederate lines, or wondered if that was not so. IJ;l response to that, without mean- ing to have said they came inside or outside of the lines, I intended 

to tell the Senator where they did come from, and he knows as well as I do that Kentucky in 1864 was in possession of the Union Army 

and so continued almost the entire time. 

The facts of the case are these: Wilson contracted with the Gov- . ernment to deliver five or six hundred mules here. · When heapproached-- Mr. EDMUNDS. I thought I had the .floor. The PRESIDING OFFICER, (Mr. L~GALLS in the chair.) Does 

the Senator from Vermont yield to the Senator from Kentucky Y 

Mr. EDMUND. Of course I do; how can I help it 'i 

Mr. D.A. VIS. I understood the Senator to say he would yield. 

However, as I have commenced I will state that the facts are, the 

mules were driven to the picket lines out near Bladensburgh, and by 

the pickets, uhder a general order they were kept there, as has been 

stated by the Senator from Kentucky, for twenty-four hours. On the 

following day, while they were retained there, the rebel cavalry came around in some way and drove the mules off. I believe that is the 

whole story. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. The Senator need not have taken all this time to 

convince me that the mules came from Kentucky. That was stated 

before, and the zeal of my honorable friend from Kentucky showed 

that also. We can take it for granted that the mules came from 

Kentucky. So a good many people in the rebel army, who on that 

very day were attacking us in Fort Stevens, in J nly, 1864, came from 

Kentucky. Kentucky wa-s a State that was about half-way betwixt 

and between these people. I do not speak of. its government. My 

honorable friend, the Senator from Kentucky, I believe, was governor 

part of t1ie time, and a more vigorous aud honorable warfare than 

he made against the rebels never was made so far as I have any rea-son to know. 

But, Mr. President, in July, 1864, the very time when this celebrated 

capture occurred, the rebel army had almost surrounded the city of 

Wa hi ngton; you may say it had quite surrounded it on the land side; 

it was within four miles of the spot where I am now speaking, can- nonading the outworks of this city; and now it is proposed because 

this man on that very day, coming from out-side our lines, was delayed 

by the pickets, when we were in the heat of this extreme stress and 

di comfort at that time, to say that he ha.s a higher claim than any- body else, and he must be sent to the Court of Claims instead ot' his case being tried here on its merits. It seems to me to be a very ex- traordinary proposition; and I say that this bill commits the United 

States on the face of it to the fact that we are bound to a()'ree to the 

circumstance that it was through the fault of the United States that 

the capture was made. What evidence have we of that Y Is there no stress of war which will justify the Government of this country in 

k eeping up military lines around this city 1 .And if you do keep them 

up, are you to say that everybody who chooses to come to Wa-shin~­

ton to carry out his contracts hall not submit to the overruling military neces ities of the ·occasion, and if he gets captured himself, or h is property gets captured, he ha-s a claim upon the Government of 

this country for reimbur ement Y That is the question. 

I say therefore I am justified in the remark t.hat thie bill, on the 

face of it a it read , goes beyond anything that has ever been con- t endecl for on this .floor before by any member of the Senate whose 

views have been in favor of maintaining the Union and maintaining 

the Administration that saved it. We have differed as to whether 

tho cru e of Best ncl ca e of that character fell within a particular 

principle or fell without it ; but no one has ever before proposed to 

declare what this bill ou the face of it declares. It says nothing what- over about a li11bility on a contract or a right to sue upon a contract; 

but it declares that in the str ss oi war, when this city was invested 

by rebel arms, the property of this citizen being without our lines, and 

theTefore either in the debatable country or in the country of the 

rebels at the moment, happened to be captured on account of thefiwt 

that the stress of war ma-de it impossible for him to get through our lines with his property, he shall be repaid. 

So, Mr. President, you may repay everybody through the whole 

fom years of that struggle who, detained in the Southern States or k ept outside of our lines by those reasons of military prudence that 

apply;. as we all umlerstand, in such instances, can come here and 

say,' \Vhat you have done for Wil on of Kentucky do for me." You 

see the effect of bad precedents very readily here. The Senator from 

Kentucky now stanu most eloquently and vigorously upon the Douglas precedent. That may be a bad precedent. The Senator from 

P ennsylvania entirely distinguishes that case from this. If he is cor- r ect , as I have no donut ho is, it is a clear distinction, ::md t he enator from Kentucky wellnntlcrRtmu1s it. Heth.i.Ilkti t he enator fTom P oun- sy l vania is not correct. Bllt yuu t>ee t h e f urce of prcccueu ts, b6caus 

now t he Senator hangs with such vigor on the fact that we have done something like this. Now, suppose you do this, and say you will send 

to the Court of Claims the claim of a citizen for compensation for 

mules captured by rebels in 1864 in consequence of military operations. That is what the words "refusal of the pickets" to let him in mean. The army engaged in defending this city had to be a little 

cautious in respect to what people it let within the lines. Therefore, 

in consequence of the stress of military operations, it is said he was delayed. Take it that he wa-s; we do not know that; we have had no testimony under oath and no cross-examination of witnesses; we do 

not know what the case was. The Senator from Kentuoky believes 

it undoubtedly; I am not questioning his beliefs; but we cannot pass 

bills upon faith which involve consequences like these. We must 

pass them upon fact.s. Mr. SCOTT. If the Senator from Vermont will permit me to cor- rect what perhaps is a misapprehep.sion in his mind, the Dougla-s ca e was not for property captured by the enemy, but it was for property 

taken and used by our own Army upon then· plantation. 1\fr. EDMUNDS. That I perfectly understand. I did not refer to 

that from the fact that the distinction which the Senator stated as to 

the circumstances under which they were allowed to go to the Court 

of Claims was so complete that it was not nece ary to occupy the 

time of the Senate in going over the other ground. 

Now, as the Senator suggests on the subject itself, the subject of 

the Douglas ·claim was one which if just in its origin fell clearly 

within the principle of cases wherein we ought to pay, as we all agree. In this case, the bill upon the face of it declares that this is a warlike 

capture. It refers to the date when this city was i.H.vested by tho 

enemy, and it states as a reason for our liability that the tre s of 

military operations compelled us to exclude this man from our lines, 

he being upon the other side, and so his property was captured; and 

I say the bill settles that so far; it does not leave it open even for the 

Court of Claims to judge upon that. But I do not care abont that. 

I say we never did and we never ought to submit to the Court of 

Claims any question of that character. If this man is to be paid, let 

the Senate take the responsibility of declaring that they will pay for 

property captured outside of our lines by the superior force of the rebel arms. Let us say so; but do not send to the Court of Claims a thing 

nobody ever thought of sending there before, so far as I know, the 

clear case of a man demanding pay for property captured by force 

of war when a city near which he was attempting to enter to per- form a contract with the Government wa surrounded and inve ted 

by the rebel forces. That is this ca e; and I am surprised that my 

friend from Kentucky should urge it. 

Mr. STEVENSON. :Mr. President, the Senator from Vermont may 

justly a-sp:i,re to be called the .A.ristides of the Senate if his justice to 

the Government is to be measured by his persistent opposition to 

almost every private claim. But if evon that Senator knew all the 

facts in this case I ·am sure that he would not oppose the passage of 

this bill. I deny in toto the proposition of the Senator of Pennsylvania, [1\Ir. 

ScoTr,) that the mules for which compensation is sought was an or- dinary capture by the enemy in war. This claimant seeks damages 

for the violation of a contract by the Government in preventing him 

from delivering a number of mules which he had bound himself to 

deliver for the use of the Army at the city of "\tVa hington on a particular day during the war. The Government refused to allow him 

to enter the city with his mules either upon the day before or the day 

named in the contract for the delivery of said mules in Wa-shing- ton. He was on the boundary line oi the city, in full view of the 

Capitol, for twenty-four hours before the day of the delive1·y. He 

tried to obtain permission to enter the city, but by military authority wa-s lJreventedfrom doing so, and was prevent~d thereby from rlelivering the mules. It was the direct act of the Government w hlch pre- vent ed the delivery. .A. day after, in front of Washington, the mules were taken by the confederates. The claimant lives in Bourbon 

County. When he left Kentucky there was no indication or suspioion of an attack upon Washington. So sudden wa the demonstration by 

the confederates upon Washington that Pre ident Lincoln, though 

warned by rumor of their ad vance, did not believe they would attempt to come to Washington, and r efused for several days to take 

any steps by recalling troops from other point for the defense of the 

capital. He believed it a device. The battle at the Monocacy 

alarmed and struck terror into the people of Washington, because of 

the want of a sufficient force to repel the threatened tack. This 

claimant left Kentucky without any reason to fear any a sault on Washington, nor had he ground to apprehend any encounter what- ever with any pl,)rtion of the .Army. It required two or more weeks 

to drive his mules from Kentucky to Washington City. .A.t the time 

of his departure there was no enemy between Kentucky and Wash- ington. It was only after Wilson had been for many days on the road 

with his mules that the confederates determined to make a demonstration upon Washington. · He was in advance of t.hem and they in 

his rear. 

He did reach Wa-shington twenty-four hours in advance of the 

confederates. He notified the War Dcpartmeu that h e had reached 

the outwartllines of the city wit h the mule a day before the period named in the contract for their delivery and he was an:rious, ren.dy, 

au<l willing to deliver said mules. The milit ary authorities jn conse- quence of t he approach of tho enemy h ad llisued an order forbidding 
5354 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 22, 

ingress or egress from Wa-shington. Wilson was refused admittance 

into the Federal lines with his mules. The confederate army approached and took the mules, but by energy and effort he recovered a portion; the others were never recovered and their value was a total 

los . Wilson having been ready to deliver, accordincr to the terms 

and tenor of his contract, at the pl:we and time, the Government interposed-it matters not for what purpose-and prevented the delivery of the mules. Is Wilson entitled to an action for a breach of his 

contract with the Government! Able and eminent Senators, who 

rank as lawyers of pre-eminent ability, deny that the Government is 

liable in the premises. Why not 'I It failed to permit and absolutely 

prevented Wilson from delivering his mules and thereby became liable 

for any damages sustained by Wilson in consequence thereof. 

The claimant Wilson now comes to Congress and asks to be permitted to set up his claim in the Court of Claims with an a.ppeal to the 

Supreme Court of the United States. The application is simple. It 

is just. If Wilson is entitled to nothing he gets nothing, he will get 

nothing. Why are the Senators from Pennsylvania and from Vermont opposed to this billY The right of the claimant is purely a judicial question. To what better tribunal could the claim be refened than 

to the Court of Claims Y 

What objection can be urged against its passage Y The Senator from 

Pennsylvania says the clmm is bad. He denies all liability on the 

part of the Government. I deny it. Why not allow the Supreme Court, 

uponanappealfromtheCourtof Claims, to tell us what the lawisY His 

denial of liability of the Government begs the question. That is the 

point upon which the claimant desires adjudication. The Senator from 

Pennsylvania says you shall not sue in the Court of Claims, because 

t.he Government owes you nothing. 

Mr. President, I was pained to hear the Senator from Pennsylvania, 

who is the chairman of the committee by which this bill was reported, 

attempt to excite the Senate by referring to Kentucky as neutral during the war. He was plea ed to talk in gran<liloquent style about 

loyalty to the Government. The Senator from Pennsy 1 vania is a good 

lawyer, and if he is satisfied that is legal position in the construction 

of this contract Wll on can recover nothing. Why awaken the bitter strife of the war f Why does the Senator seek to defeat this just 

claim by depriving the claimant of appealing to the judicial tribunals 'I Why arouse party animosities and sectional feeling Y Justice 

is represented as blind, holding the ba.lance with an even hand, una- ble to perceive the litigants. 

Let this claimant appeal from this forum, where party and passion 

too often blind and mislead us, to that quiet, calm, judicial tribunal 

by which justice is sought to be a.dministel'ed without any extemal 

disturbing influence. 

I hope Sena,tors will lend me their aid in passing this bill. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. President, I ha.d no idea when my friend from 

West Virginia asked to take up this bill that we were to be pl'ecipitated into such a, discussion as this; but the appeals which al'e mane by my friend from Kentucky to Senators, the very earnestness of those 

appeals and the manner of them, warn me that as the chairman·of 

the Committee on Claims I have a duty to perfmm befol'e the :final 

vote is taken on this bill. 

Now, sir, if the ·Senator from Kentucky will cast his mind's eye 

back for a short period he will see that there has been no disposition 

to discriminate against Kentucky claims. It wa-s, perhaps I do not 

go far wrong in sayin(J', neutral ground for a long 'Period of time. 

\Vhen he l'emembers that to the one city of Lexington more claims 

have been awarded, and large!' claims than to any other city that I can now call to mind except Nashville, he certainly will agree that 

there has been no disposition here to discriminate against Kentucky. 

A literary institution there received $25,000; an agricultural and me~ 

chanical a ociation, within the last few days, has had voted to it 

25,000 more fm the occupation and destruction of its grounds ; a 

bill was passed at the instance of the Senator himself a few days 

ago to pay a lany in the city of Lexington for the occupation of her 

property; and now, sir, we are asked to take up a bill, and because 

the claimant is a citizen of Kentucky we al'e appealed to upon grounds 

of sympathy to set a precedent which will return to plague ns before 

very long. . . I have said Kentucky was neutl'al ground. How often was 1t invaded by the confederate army and how many mules were captured 

and run off from Kentucky by that confederate army Y I wish my 

friend were in his seat to answer the question. 

Mr. STEVENSON. I am here. 

Mr. SCOTT. How many mules were captured in Kentucky by the 

confederate army and run away from theil' owners during the four 

years of the war i 

Mr. STEVENSON. I cannot tell. 

Mr. SCOTT. Hundreds of them, thousands of them perhaps; and 

now I ask any one who recognizes the rule tba.t a government i8 not 

responsible to its citizens for property capture(l by the superior force 

of tho onemy to point to me the distinction between the claim that 

will be made for the mules captured on the farms of loyal men in 

Kentucky and the m,ules captured outside of the city of Washington when forces led, if I am not mi taken, a part of them, by a distinguished citizen of Kentucky against the Union, wel'e beleaguering 

the city. Where is the distinction Y The Senator says that this citi- zen of Kentucky was here endeavoring to fulfill his contract with 

the Government. So he was. Was it the fault pf the Government 

that he did not get his mules here ~fr . ~TEVENSON. Ye. 

Mr. SCOT".r. The fault of the Government 'I 

Ml'. STEVENSON. Yes, sir. .M.r. SCOTT. Surely my friend is not considering the extent of his 

assertion when he says it was the fault of the Government in issuing an order for the purpose of preventing the entrance here of an enemy 

that sought to di mantle this capital and destroy this Union. That was what the Government did. It issued an order to pl'event acce s to this capital by those who were seeking the nation's life and were in battle anay for the purpose of taking it. Tell me it was the fault 

of this Government to issb.e that ordel' which kept that man and his 

mules out of Washington! If it was, it was the fault of the Government in issuing every order from the 12th of April, 1861, down to the 

day that the rebel aJ.'my surrendered in Virginia. It was the exercise 

of the sovereio-n power of the Government for the purpo e of pre erv- ing the nation1's life ; and the fact that that order prevented this man from coming into Washington gives him no more claim against the 

Government than the fact that the war was raging would give to every 

loyal man in the nation for property captured by the enemy. 

Within the last few days we have had a discussion in this Chamber 

and a vote which warns us where we are drifting; and I want to say 

to the men of the South who have been standing hel'e asking for the 

payment of loyal citizens of the South, that the course.which is now being taken has led many of those who have been the advocat-es of 

the payment of loyal citizens to consider seriously whether the point 

which we have now reache<.l is not the one from which our step 

should be retraced in giving payment to loyal citizens of the South, 

whether the danger which menaces us in the pl'ecedent set in this 

Chamber a few days ago, if followed by pas ing this bill, is not one which bids fair to bring upon us hundreds of millions of claims as well fotmded as this one or as the one to which I mfel'. ~fr. Pl'esident, I had intended to say very little, I had intended to 

call the attention of the Senate simply to the facts in this case, to a principle which it involves, and to permit the Senate to vote upon 

that principle calmly and dispassionately; but the fervent appeals 

that have been made here by my friend from Kentucky to the sympathies of Senators, appeals to do for this man what he alleges they 

have done for other -his earnestness in doing all this has led me to 

say that we have a duty to perform in standing between such claims 

and the Tl'easury of the United States; for if we admit this, the tol'-

.rent which will soon rnsh in will render opposition vain, vain, sir, to 

any of the classes of cla.ims which are now hovel'ing around us and 

seeking for precedents upon which to place themselves. 

Ml'. STEVENSON. I shall not, Mr. President, imitate the example 

of the Senator from Pennsylvania [Mr. Sco'IT) in fighting over in 

this Cham bel' the battles of the late rebellion. If that Senator feels 

that to defend the pa-ssa.go of this bill recommended by a majority of 

his own committee it is necessary for him to l'ekindle the expiring 

embers of that bloody strife which ~very patriotic heart should de ire 

to extinguish-if his success demands an appeal to the party pas ions 

and sectional prejudices of the dominant majority of the Senate rather 

than to their judgment andjustice, be it so. lli. SCOTT. Ihn.ve a,wa)rened no passion. ~fr. STEVENSON. Awa,kenednopassion'f Attempted toaron eno bitter sectional animo ity again t this humble, hone t claimant by 

endeavoring to indirectly rail at the disloyalty of Kentucky! 

The PRESIDING OFFICER, (Ml'. L."\GALLS in the chair.) The Senator will address the Chair. 

Mr. STEVENSON. I am anclressing the Chair. I have a l'ight whilo 

debating a bill to turn to the Senator towhom I am replying without 

entrenching upon any rule of this body. . Mr. SCOTT. The Senator asks me what appeals I made. I believe 

I sta,ted a historical fact-if I am wrong he will correct me-that 

in the mid. upon Washington in 1864 a portion of the ID'my besieging 

the capital was led by a distinguished citizen of Kentucky. Am I 

wrong in that statement 'f 

Mr. STEVENSON. The Senator is not wrong in his historical 

statement. Butwhythatre.ferenceY Cui bcm.o? \Vhat matters itto one proper decision of the question befme the Senate whether the 

confedel'ate forces before Washington were led by a Kentuckian or a. Maryla,nder '\' Why this allnsion to a brave and ~allant Kentuckian, now in private life, who linked his fortunes With the confedemte cause and distinguished himself upon many a ba,ttle-:field, winning 

the admiration of his foes f Was such a reference pertinent to the 

merits of the bill Is not the motive of such allusion transparent f 

Had it any other object Y Did it seek any other end than the defeat 

of this bill by awakening the animosities of the wal' and rekindling 

tho prejudices of the past a$ainst Kentucky, because brave men in 

that Commonwealth differea in their views and sought service alike 

in both the Union and confedemte armies 'f 

The Senator from Pennsylvania is pleased also to refer to the property of the United State captured by the confederates in Kentucky 

durino- the war. But still he says he is making no sectional appeaffi. 

Mr. P~esident, Kentucky Rprang from the loins of Virginia; bone of 

her bone and flesh of her fie h. How natural the sympathy, the affection, the interest of the daughter fm the mother in a clash of arms f 

But while the Senator from Pennsylvania endeavors to arouse ec-

. 
.1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD . '5355 

tional passion against my State· because many of her sons :flocked to 

the confederate standard. he seems oblivious to the historical fact that 

thousands and tens of thousands of brave Kentucky hearts, separating 

themselves from all the ties of section, kindred, ancl natural sympathy, rallied to the :Bag of the Union and gave their lives and their 

fortunes for the unity of these States. · Does the Senator from Pennsylvania forget how many Kentucky 

soldiers found bloody graves and now sleep in the national cemetery 

at Gettys burgh 'I Would he prove his gratitude to their heroism in 

saving his own Commonwealth from confederate rule by attempting 

to defeat the right of a Kentucky citizen to go into the Court of Claims 

to have an adjudication upon his claim against the Government 

for supplies furnished to the Union in that gigantic strugglef Is 

there anything unusual in this application f Are not the archives 

of Congress, the records of the Court of Claims, and of the Supreme 

Court of the United States full of precedents in support of the privilege granted by the pending bill T Do not Senators personally know 

that the War Department often and justly refer meritorious claims, 

baiTed by time, to the courts for adjudication¥ Is not such a course just and proper 'I' But this claimant lives in dislqjal Kentucky, atD.d 

however loyal himself, because Kentuckians went into the rebellion, 

tho bill must be r ejected! 

lllr. President, I am tired and sick of this continued attempt in 

Congress to defeat just claims by appeals to the passions and prejudices. In God's name, let the dead past bury its dead; let our charity, our justice, our love of country forget the past, and look to the fu~e. 

Kentucky needs no defense against assaults from ·any quarter. 

Her past history as a State is her highest eulogium. She asks equality and seeks justice for her people. From the bloody :fields of the 

Thames and the Tippecanoe to the city of Mexico, Kentucky soldiers who fell in the honor and defense of their country quietly sleep. 

If yon ask a pension for these old soldiers who live or their widows w bo survive them, the cry is still made, were they loyal 'I' Widows 

in Kentucky, whose farms were taken and occupied for years during the rebellion, timber cut and fences destroyed, are denied com- pensation upon the ipse dixit of a mere quartermaster's clerk tha.t 

they were disloyal. Thousands of dollars' wort-h of quartermaster's 

stores were furnished by the best and worthiest men in Kentucky, 

taken by the Government, and they are denied compensation because 

they sympathized with the rebellion. 

And now a worthy, upright citizen of Bourl>on County, Kentucky, 

who contracted with the Govo:-nment of the United States in 1864 to 

deliver on a certain day named several hundred mules in Washington 

City for the Army, who fulfilled his contract, and upon the day preceding the day named in the contract for the deli very arrives at Washington with his mules, but is prevented by a military order issued by 

the Government from enter.ing the city, which subsequently fall into 

the hands of the enemy, asks Congress to allow him to go into the 

Court of Claims and assert his ri~ht to damages for a breach of con- tract, and it is sought to defeat h1m because it is a capture of property 

pending the war for which the Government is not liable! If the 

doctrine as erted by the Senator from Pennsylvania [Mr. ScoTT] and 

the Senator from Vermont [Mr. EDMUNDS] be law, then the Court 

of Claims, or the Supreme Court of the United States to which there 

is an appeal, would so declare, and this claimant would get nothing. 

I deny that this claim rests on the doctrine asserted by the Senator 

from Pennsylvania. It does not stand on the ground of property captured by the enemy. · In contracts for the delivery of personal chattels the Government 

occupies the same position as a private individual, and is governed by 

ail the rules of construction applicable to them. If the Government 

contracts for the purchase of personal chattels, to be delivered by the 

contractor at a place and day named, and the Government by its 

strong arm prevents the delivery, the contractor is entitled to all the 

damage which he sustains by the act of the Government. The Senator [Mr. ScoTT] denies the proposition of law asserted by me. I insist upon its correctness. Why not allow the courts to decide it'!' 

Senators, be just, as I know you will be; let not the appeals of the 

Senator from Pennsylvania to your passions and your prejudices lead 

you to deny to this worthy and honest Kentuck-y farmer the privilege 

of an adjudication upon his ri~hts by the judicial tribunals of his 

country. He can get nothing Without, by the judicial construction of 

the law, he be en,titlecl to it. Surely you would not deny him what 

the law accords. He asks nothing more; he should receive nothing 

less. I ask that this bill may be passed. 

Mr. TIPTON. M:r. President, if I can be instrumental in one word 

in allaying this storm of passion which has swayed the Chamber for 

the last balf-honr, I shaH certaiilly "have brought the Senate to a proper frame to contemplate peace and harmony and domestic felicity 

in the Territory of Utah. [Laughter.] I wish to call attention to 

the fact that while the Senator from Kentucky has shown a little 

warmth in r egarcl to the patriotism, as he thinks, of his constituency 

and his State, on the other hand the Senator from Vermont, as I think, 

appealed to the prejudice of the country and to that bitterness and 

asperity which we trusted had been allayed forever. When I saw a 

general of the Union army on the one side of this Chamber and a general of the confederate army on the other side ·of this Chamber, I supposed t.hat we had entered upon a reign of peace and amity and comity and friendship, that it would not be considered legitimate debate to 

make appeals to the passious and referencet> to the bloody past; but 

the honorable Senator from Vermont seems to think otherwise. When 

therefore his attention is called to the fact that a Kentuckian has a. claim before the Senate, his :first reply is, "Why, there were rebels in 

Kentucky." But the answer is made, "Yes, but he had a contract 

under seal with the Government of the United States." "Very well,'? 

says he in reply to the contract; "did not Kentuckians attack us in 

the war'!'" "Yes; but he brought hismulesfromMaryland." "0, 

but was not the Union Army attacked in Maryland;" and it is blood 

and thunder and the Union Army that is to be the omnipotent reply 

to a contract under seal in the hands of a loyal Kentuckian. I :find 

the prototype of this and of the honorable Senator on this occasion in 

the history of a distinguished Captain Blakely, of Vermont. 

Captain Blakely was at some place in the vicinity of the Cbincha · Islands engaged in the guano trade, as many another man from the 

State of Vermont has made his fortune, and many orators have had 

embellishments from the garlands plucke<l from the Chincha Islands. 

Captain Blakely's mate was killetl by a celebrated captain who was outlawed on the coast. Captain Blakely arrested the officer who had 

killed his negro mate, sent out word to all the captains in the port 

that he wishe<l them at nine o'clock in the morning to come on board 

his vessel and see him execute the man that had killed his "nigger," as he termed him. "But.," said they, "Captain Blakely, lu'\8 tho man been tried¥" " Tried ! " says he ; " certainly not ; didn't he kill my 

niggerT" "Ah, well, but you wouldn't hang him without a tTial; 

how would it soun<l ¥" Saicl he, ''Sound be hanged! Didn't he kill 

the nigger " [Laughter.] "Of course nobody denies that." "Well, 

then ·I am going to hang him anyhow." "0, well, but that would 

be murder." "\Veil, then, let us hang him :first and try him afterward," says the captain from Vermont. "Well," said they, "but you 

will have to have bjm tried or your conn try may be involved in difficulty." "Yes; but. I should reply to them, 'Didn't he kill the nigger f '" Accordingly he yielded to the tri...'lll. " How long will it 

take?" "Only a few minutes." "Very well, then; I will bring the 

prisoner and bring the rope at the same time. Go on with your trial." 

After they went through with the trial and found the captain guilty 

of murder, he took out his old Bible that he had carried dowu from 

the State of Vermont with him, and read to the criminal the first 

two chapters of the book of Genesis. After he had got through 

reading to him, with the rope around his nock, t.he :first two chapters of the book of Genesis, he turned to him ancl said: "Now, 

didn't you kill the nigger T" He get no confession. Said he : " I 

have done for you more than most men would do; I have read to you 

the :first two chapters of the boolr of Genesis;" and he swung him 

off, taking out his watch deliberately and timed him for just thirty 

minutes, cut him down, and as he was about to band him over for 

burial, and gazin~ upon his prostrate body, :finally he showed some emotion, some twrnges of conscience, and when all was excitement to 

understand what was operating upon the heart of the captain, he 

looked sad and d~jectedJ and said he," Well, I have just been thinking perhaps I ought to have burned him at the stake, but then I was trying to do for the best." [Laughter.] And here comes the honorable Senator with all the mercilessness of attack on this loyal Kentuckian, slays him here in the Senate house of the nation, and has 

only compunctions that perhaps he had not done his duty and did not 

burn him at the stake. . Mr. FLANAGAN. I shall not certainly make any lengthy speech; 

but I think I can demonstrate in about :fifteen words that this party 

ought to be relieved. In the first place, it is manifest that there was a contract entered into clearly and fairly, aml that in good faith the 

mules were delivered clirectly near the point where they were to be 

received; but from the fact that the pickets were so arran~ed as not 

to permit them to be delivered, the party contracting could not com- ply. But, sir, what are the facts1 The rebel army captured these 

mules. If that be a good plea, as is strongly urged by distinguished 

Senators, the force of it is subsequently lost, because :finally the Unit~d States Government captured them, and yet has them in pos- ses ion, a,nd it must now pay for them agreeably to the original con- tract because it is now possessed of the property. 

1\Ir. SCOTT. The Senator is very much mistaken; they were not 

all recaptured. 

Mr. THURMAN. Mr. President--

Mr. FRE:LINGHUYSEN. If we can have a vote I will give way, 

but otherwise I must call for the regular order. 

Mr. THURMAN. There is no regular order. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I think there is. 

Mr. THURMAN. This is the regular order. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER, (llfr. INGALLS in the chair.) The Senator from Ohio has the :Boor. . Mr. THURMAN. I do not like to intermeddle in this mule matter, 

which is the source of so much eloquence and wit ; but I desire to 

say in about ten sentences that if this were a controversy between 

two individuals, I do not think there is a lawyer in the Senate who 

would hesitate a moment how it ought to be dec~ded. If I agree to 

doli vera certain article at a specified time within the house of another, 

and when I go with the article at that time he locks the door and 

will not let me in, no matter how good reason he may have had for 

locking the door, no matter though in morals ~din conscience and 

in delicacy be was perfec.tly l'ight in locking the door, yet I may set 

the article outside of the door, and it is at his risk. If that is not law, 

I do not know what law is. 
5~56 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JuNE 22, 

Here was this man bound to deliver these mules within the city of 

Washington. For a good rea on, if you sa,y so, the Government did 

not see fit to let him come with his mules inside the city of Washington just as a man for a good reason will not let him come inside his 

house to deliverthe article whichhopropo estodeliver in thathou e. For a good rea on the Government dicl not do that; but tha,t was the 

misfortune of th Gov rnment; the man had done all he could do; and 

if the Government for reason sufficient to it elf prevented him from 

making that delivery, kept him outside of the house, kept him outside of the city, the property was then at the risk of the Government. 

That is the whole case. Mr. EDMUND . It is not quite the whole ofthis case, as I see from· · a communication from the Secretary of War which I find in the par 

pers. This petition ha. been before Congre regularly since 186 , or earlier, bas ]?een reported upo:::::: adversely once at any rate, but of course that does not bar the Senate now although we do have-a rule 

that when there has been an adverse report on a claim it shall not 

be brought up a~ain except on fresh testimony. There is no fresh 

te timony here; ont I do not mind that. 

The Senator from Ohio ays that it is exactly like the case of a private citizen who ma,ke a contract and the other party tenders performance and he is entitl d to pay. Suppose this man had contracted 

for these mules with the Senator from Ohio, to be delivered in Washington in July, 1 64, and through the stre s of war the week before an order had been made that the military authorities would allow 

nobody to pass through the lines dividing the Federal from the rebel 

forces; and this mru1 comes from the rebel side of the line with his 

property and is preventeu by the military forces from coming in. Now 

is tbo Senator fJ:om Ohio liable in such a, eu.se ·J Of conrso he knows 

that he is not. Is th Goverument of the United States li.c1.ble in such a case' The Seuator concedes by his argument, as I understand him, 

that it would not be. If I run wrong in tha,tMr. THURMAN. I did not hear tho case exactly us put by the 

Son at or. Mr. EDMUNDS. I aid supposing this contract bad been made by 

thi gentleman and the Senator from Ohio to have these mules deliv- ered on the 12th of July, r64,atthe Capitol gate in the city of Washington. On the 6th of July, owing to the rebel attack and invest- ment of the city, the President of the United States and Commander- in-Chief of the forces made a general order commanding that no per- son be allowed to pass the picket lines of the Union Army surrounding the city either way. Thn.t wa.s the order. We have it here. That 

order having been in force for six dny , or three days, or one day- no matter about the time-the actual owner comes with his mules to 

bring them into the cit.y to deliver them to the Senator from Ohio. 

He i prevented by t.he military force , in obedience to military order 

and necessity. Now, I say the Senator from Ohio would not be liable. 

Mr. THURMAN. What ha.s that to do with thi ca.se T The Senator from Ohio was not the Government and couhl not be the Government. Take the ca .. e where the Government itself prevented the 

delivery. - Mr. EDMUNDS. Will the Senator be kind enough to answer the 

question T The Senator does not an wer it because he sees it ha,s 

something to do with the case. That is what is the matter. I take 

it therefore to be clea,r that the Senator from Ohio would be under no obligation to this citizen from Kentucky. Would the Government of 

the United States be under any obligation to the citizen from Kentncky in the same ca e because it through military nece ity to defend its capital ha-d tabli 'hed a military line around here resih-ting 

the rebel forces at that time, and had therefore delayed the entrance 

of the citizen with hi property into the lines of an invested cityf 

Clearly not, although I clare sn.y that will be the law if the numbers 

of our adversaries on the other side increase after a few years, a-s I am glad to hope they will not. But uow the ln.w is plainly thn,t the 

United States wonld not be responsible. 

Then, what difference does it make when the United States in its 

capacity of carrying on business hapyens to be the contractor, and in 

its sovereign capacity as defending Its capital in a state of war happens to boa belligerent, that because in order to defend its capital, 

treating all citizens alike and not directing its refusal to this particular man in order to break up his contract, but through military ne- ce ity to keep up an absolute cordon impassable about this city, the ma,n loses his property T Whore is the clUfer.ence 'l In the one case he 

ha contracted to deliv~r to my friend from Ohio; in the other case he. has contracted to deliver to the Quartermaster-General. In neither ca e is the Unit d States liable, because what is called a breach of 

contract was a breach from overruling nee ·sity of war. That absolves all parties; and thpt necessity wasju t as overruling when the 

Government in it capacity as sovereign, bound to defend the capital, re orted to thi general method of defen e by preventing any pasage of the line , applying to its citizens who came to den,l with it as 

well as those who came to be among themselves. There is no difference. But, :Mr. President, I do not want to discuss that qne tion. I only 

want to a. t.hat thi bill, upon the face of it, take it for granted and excluuc the Conrt of Claims froru any right to ioqn..ir iht'oHgh 

whose fault iu fact it was that this property did not come through 

the lines; whether tb..i n1:1u was keepiug hjs mules back, under preten e of inn.bility to get tln·ough, in order thn.t the rebels might take 

them, or whether he wa uot. You do not allow the court to inquire 

into that subject at all. Your bill declar tha,t he shall have com- pen atiou in consequence of the refusal of the picket to let him 

through. You take all that to be proved now. You do not allow the 

court to take testimony on the so bject. Is that the way to get at the 

truth · I do not mean to ay that I have any knowledge or ·u picion 

that this man did not do everything he could. I only sa,y if yon are ~oing to have a trial in court, have one; do not undertake to decide m advance and without any testimony the part of the case which 

makes you liable, and then end tbe man to a court to get his pay. 

:Mr. Pre ident, if this had beeu a bill which imply decl:1red that 

under the circum tance of this man's trying to get rcdre throncrh 

Congress he had been misled in not goin(J' to the Court of Claims fur 

the breach of his contract, and imply declaring that it removed the 

statute of limitations upon any right of action that he might have 

had, without foreclo. ing that question, it would have been a very 

different bill from the one before us. Then the man would have ha-d 

exactly the right for a breach of this contract that he had the day 

after it was broken, if it wa broken at a,ll. But this doe not undertake to do that. There would be grave donbt about the propriety as a matter of precedent to other citizen, because every one of the ·e things i drawn into precedent, if even consenting to remove the 

statute bar. But this bill takes the whole thing by the body and 

does not treat it as a qu tion of violation of contract at all; it tr at 

it as a question of belligerent capture and declares that there was such a capture on account of the military operations of the United 

States; and then says that the court according to its rule of practice-and who in the world knows what that isY I do not-shall 

proceed to determine the amount this man shall have. 

:Mr. President, I move that this bill be postponed until the first Monday in December, when we ca.n have time to consider more particularly 

the important questions contained in it. 

Mr. DAVIS. I believe the yea and nays have b en ordered. The PRESIDii~G OFFICER. 'fhe Chair o nnderstaucls. 

Mr. EDMlThTDS. That was on the third reading. I want the y as and nays now on the motion to postpone. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Chair unrler ta.nrls that the 

yea and nays have been ordered on the third reading of the bill; but 

the motion to po tpone takes precedence. 

Mr. HOWE. If the que tion of po tponement can be taken now, I am willin.c; to vote without saying anything. 

Mr. ST£VENSON. Will the Senat.or from Vermont withdraw his 

motion for a second Y 

Mr. ED.MTThTDS. No, sir. 

Mr. STEVENSON. I only want to offer an amendment to Itleet his 

object.ion. 

1\ir. EDMUNDS. I want to consider amendments when they come, 

not in the hea,t and ha te we h ve now. If the enator i incere, as I have no doubt he i , in the belief that thi man ought iu orne way to have rea onable relief, t.his being a 1.mate bill, at thi time of 

night on the last day of the Senate, I think he will agree with me that 

it is not very hard, con idering the doubt and diffi.r.ulty that urronncl 

the question in the form it now tancls, to let the matter be po tponed 

till the firet !\fonday in December, (because th r is no hop that the 

bill can paso to-day an how,) when we consider it fairly, and I con- fess there will be a good deal of force in the argument then that if 

you put him back ex:actly where he was, there might be somo !-,;,.Omtd 

for it, though I do not commit my elf on that point Therefore I insist on my motion to postpone the bill till the fir t Monday in December. , Mr. STEVENSON. I c:1ll for the yea and na, on tha,t motion. 

The yeas and nays were ordered, and the Secretary proceeded to 

call the roll. 

!\fr. WADLEIGH, (when his name was called.) The Senator from 

Kentucky having a~eell to amend the bill to remove the objoctiou 

of the Senator from vermont-- . Mr. ED~IUNDS. Debn.te is not in order. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Debate is not in order. . .Mr. "\V .AD LEIGH. I wi h to explain my vote. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Debate is not in order during the 

call of the roll. 

The roll-call being concluded, the result wa.s announced-yeas 19, 

nays 29 ; as follows : 

YEAS-Messrs. Allison, Boutwell, Buckingham, Carpenter, Chancllor, Edmunil.s, 

FeiTy of Michi~;an, Frelinghuysen, Gilbert. Hamilton of Texas, Howe, Ingalls, Jones, Pratt, Sargent, Scott, Stewart, Washburn, and Wri~ht-19. 

NAYS-Messrs. Alcorn, Bogy,Boreman, Cla.yton,Conovor, Cooper, Davis, FE~nton, 

Flanagan, Goldthwaite Gordon, Hager, Hamlin, Harrey, Kcllv, McC1·ecTy, .Mcrri:- mon, Mitchell. Norwoorl. r•ea e, Ransom, Robertson, Sa.uL:!bury, SpOJ.Jcer, 'L'eveu Oil, 

Stockton, Thurman, Tipton, and Wadleigh-29. ABSENT-Messrs. Anthony, Bayard, Brownlow, Cameron, Conkling, Cra,gin Dennis, Dorsey,Ferr.vofCounecticut, Hamilton of Maryland, illtohcock,Johnfi1:on, Lewis, Logan, Morrill of Maine, Morrill of Vermont, Morton, Oglesby, Patterson, 

Ramsey, Schurz, Sherman, Sprague, Wet, and Windom-25. 

So the motion was not agreed to. 

Mr. STEVENSON. Now, to obviate the objection sugge ted hy the Senator from Vermont, so as to avoid all conclu ions of fa-ct, I move in line 4, aft r the word " con eqneuce," to add the worus "as 

be alleges.'' ' 

Mr. HOWE. Mr. Pre iclont, I voted M po tpone the further con- sideration of this bill. I sha,U vote again t the pa.s a.ge of the bill. It does seem to me that tho Senator from Kentucky on nr little con-
l874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5357·. 

sideration would agree that whether WJ.l·on ought to be paid for the e mules or not, we ought never to pass this bill. Why do we send this man to the Court of Claim Y Is there a question of fact on this 

record to be tried anywhere f Is there anything but- the plainest 

question of law to be settled f It seems to me not. The bill recites that this man Wilson agreed with the quartermaster to sell him on behalf of the Government some mules, and to deliver them to him 

in the city of _Washington; that he di<l not deliver them to him be- cause he could not pass through the picket lines when he was on his 

way to deliver them. Therefore he did not deliver the mules. Now 

you propose "to send that contract to a court of law to adjudicate. I 

cannot assume to know that court of law would not say that when 

Wil on was stopped out here at Bladensburgh by a picket line he was in Wa hington and tendered his mules to Rucker. I can only 

say if the court did so I would vote to impeach every one of the 

judges if they were presented here for trial. It seem tq me that 

every lawyer must say that that is not delivery. 

I was ab olutely a tonished at a propo ition of law submitted hero 

just now by the Senator from Ohio. If I understood him correctly, 

he affirmed this broad proposition: that if a man promised to deliver 

to auother at a given time and place ariything, and brought it to his 

house and found the doors locked, although rightfully locked, he 

might leave the proper y in the street, and thnt was a good perform- ance of the p1·omise. .If he means to say just that, it amounts to this: 

that if you promise to pa.y a sum of money on a given day and go to 

the place at nine or ten o'clock and find the doors locked, yon may . lay the money down . on the door-step, and you have tendered the 

money and canceled yonr contract! 

I do not know but that there may be equitable considerations 

which should call upon Cong1·ess to pay for these mules. There may 

be legal considerations, in spite of what I say to the contrar. ; but if 

there are legal considerations, know it to-day ; there i.s the whole 

record before you. Why ask the ad vice of the Court of Claims Y If 

upon thi statement Wil on ought to have pay for his mules, pay him, 

not dodge, not send the que tion to any other tribunal. The Court 

of Claims I should think would be apt to inquire of you why yon did 

not pay him yourself. There is no question that yon want t.o have 

settled; there is no dispute as to the facts of the record as pre ented. 

There may be other considerations in the case that are not suggested. 

Mr. President, there may be equitable considerations whwh caJ.l 

upon the Government to pay for these mules. Those considerations 

do not arise from the fact that the contractor was on his way to 

Washington and was stopped because there was a picket line extended 

between him and Wa-shington. That picket line was rightfully there. 

If he tried to communicate with the Government through that picket 

line, if the officer of the guard received notice that he was there, a contractor with property which he had nndertaken to deliver in Wat~hington, and the officer would not send that communication, which 

he could have done within thirty minutes, if he made his best en- deavors to communicate that fact to the Government, it may be that we should take that into consideration and make good to him the loss; 

but the Court of Claims ought -not to do it. That is a court of law. That court can only give judgment when the contract is not only 

proved but the performance is proved, and there is no pretense that 

there was a performance of the contract in this case. I was struck with the fact appearing in the report of the com- mittee, the statement that although this man alleges that he was stopped by the picket line, it does not appear that he made any 

attempt to communicate with the Government until the next day, 

when he took the cars and rode into Washington. 

Mr. D.A. VIS. The Senator will allow me to say that the proofs are he did make the best effort he could, and was stopped at three different points by the pickets, and then one of the three parties at the 

picket line got into Washington the following morning, but could not 

reach the commanding officer: 

Mr. HOWE. The report is different . . 

Mr. D.A. VIS. I made the re-port, and I think I am stating the facts. 

1\>f.r. HOWE. I just read the report, and I think the Senator is mistaken about it, or I am. I understand the report to say that there were two partie in charge of the mules ; Mr. Wilson was not one of · them; so that I under tand the report to say that he tried to get in 

that day, but it does not say what effort-s he made, but that he did come iB. the next day, and came in by the railway on a regular train. The report does not explain why he could not have come in on the 

:first day. 

.Mr. DAVIS. The report does .not state all the details, but as I 

understand the ca e the fact are that the mules were in two lots, the 

first lot in charge of two men, and the other man made three attempts 

at different points to get into Washington, but could not get in; and 

:finally he got upon the cars and came in. 

.Mr. HOWE. -My friend is mistaken. The :first lot was delivered; 

the next lot of one hundred and seventy or one hundred and ninety was not. 

Mr. D.A. VIS. My friend can hardly say that I was mista.'ken because 

the two lots came to the picket lines; the one hundred and eventy 

mules came through in two lots separated from each other. They were not all together when they c3me to the picket lines. ~Ir. HOWE. The report is right here in the hands of my friend 

from New Hampshire, [Mr. WAD LEIGH.] 

~I.r. DAVIS. I am not mistaken :tbout that. 

Mr. HOWE. The Senator may not be mistaken about the fact, but 

he is mistaken about the report, because it is right here in the hands 

of the Senator from New Hampshire, and he corroborates what I say. 

Mr. D.A. VIS. What the report say I may not recollect, because it 

does not contain all the details; but the facts are as I state and as the papers bear out. · 1\ir. HO.WE: I am not disputing the fact; I do not know bow the 

fact is; I am speaking of the report. The report says that the one hundred and seventy mules were in charge of two servants of the con- tractor, Wilson; that he could not come in because of the picket 

line. The report does not say that he applied to the officer in charge 

of the picket line at all; but the second day, it says, one of the men in charge of the mules came into Washington on a regular train, got 

the order to bring in the mules, and went out and then the mules were taken. 

This, however, ha.B nothing to do with the question whether we are - to refer this case to the Court of Claims. I am opposed to refer- ring it to the Court of Claims, because there is no case stated here 

upon which a court of law·could honestly give judgment, and I would 

not invite them to give a dishonest judgment. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o ternpore. The question is on the amendment . of the-Senator from Kentucky. 

The amendment was agreed to. Mr. WAD LEIGH. It seems from the report made by the committee 

in this case that this claimant was a loyal man; that he made with 

the Government a contract to deliver here in this city a certa.in num- ber of mules; that be delivered a part of tho e mules here according 

to hi contract and was proceeding to tleliver the rest accor-ding to 

the contract, and got near to this city and to a point from which he 

might have reached the city an!] could beyond any doubt have reached 

the city and delivered the mules acconling to the contract, but he was stopped by the agent of the Government who were acting umler 

the orders of the Secretary of War, and acting rightfully. But by 

those ortler and by the action of the Government it elf be wa prevented fr"om carrying out hi contract, and there was notbin~ in the · world to prevent him from carrying out hi contract e:x:copt tne order 

of the Government of the United St..<ttes. Under the circumstances 

I should be in favor of paying this m3Jl a just and equitaule compcn-· sation. · My friend the Senator from Wisconsin has said. that he did not de-' 

liver the mules according to his contract. That is perfectly true; the 

mules were not delivered in Washington; but he offered to deliver the ' 

mules in Washington and the Government refused to accept them; and 

they should pay damage for the non-acceptance of the mule accord- _ ing to the contract, he having done everything in his power to per- form the contrltct, being prevented from performing it only by the act · of the Government it elf. My friend from Pennsylv::mia. [.Mr. ScoTT] 

shakes his head as if I was wrong; and knowiug him as I do, I am almost inclined to believe I am; but I must be guided by my own· convictions of right and duty, and guided by those convictions of 

right and duty I am ready to vote for thls bill as amended on the: motion of the Senator from Kentucky. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The questionis on orderingthe bill 

to be engrossed for a third reading, on which the yea.s and nays have 

been ordered. 

The question being taken by yeas and nays, re'ulted- yeas 29, nays 

16 ; as follows : 

YEAS-Me srs. Alcorn, Bogy, Boreman, Cla:rton, Cooper, D:l.Vis, Dennis, Fenton, :r:hnag~ Goldthwaite, Gordon, H.'tger, Harvey, Hitchcock, Kelly, McCreery, Mer-· rrmon, Mitcllell, Morton, Nor wood, l'atterfion, Ramsey, R.ansom,S..1.ulsburv,Sprague, _ Steven on, Stockton, Thnrma.n, aod Wadleigh-29. · NAYS-Me srs . .Allison, .Anthony,.Boutwcll Buckin~ham, Chandler, Edmunds, 

Ferry of Michigan, Frelins-hny en, Gilbert, Hamilton of Texas, Howe, Ing:ill.s,Pmtt, Scott, Washburn, and Wngbt-lG. 

ABSENT-Messrs. Baya.r<l, Brownlow, C:lDleron. Carpentm·, Conkling, Conover, · Cragin, Dorsey, Ferry of Connecticut, Hamilton of Maryland, Ha.mlill, John ton, - J ones, Lewis, Logan, Morrill of Maine, Morrill of Vermont, Oglesby, Pea. e, Robert- son, Sargent, Schurz, Sherm:m, Spencer, St-ewart, Tipton, West and Windom-28. · 

So the bill was ordered to a third reading. It was read the third 

time, and passed. ME SAGE FROM THE HOU E . 

.A. message from the Ron e of Representatives, by Mr. McPHER ON, · its Clerk? announced that the House further insisted on its disa•Treement to the amendments of the Senate to the bill (H. R. No. 3'094). making appropriations for the service of the Post-Office Departm'IJt· for_ the year ending June 30, ~75, and for other purposes, ag:reed to 

further conference asked by the House on the disagreeing votes of 

the two Houses thereon, and had appointncl Mr. J . N . TYNE R of Iu<liana, Mr. J. G. CANNON of Tilinois, and Mr. S. S. l\!ARBnALL of Illinois,- managers at the second conference on its part. . The mes age further announced that the House bad pas!:! d the bill 

(S. No. 930) to authorize the Farmers' National Bank of Greensbm·gh 

Pennsylvania, to chan~e it location ancl name, with an amenclmeni 

in which it requested tne concurrence of t he Senate. 

The message also announced that the House had passed the follow- ing bills : 

A bill (S. Nq. 277) makin"' an appropriation for the payment of 

79'2.46 due the late James L. Day, of Connecticut for transporting 

the mails over post-route No. 8151; - A bill (S. No. 443) te provide for the payment of legal services_ rendered by Edmund Randolph to the United States; 
5358 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 22, 

A bill (S. No. 552) to refund to E. & J. Koch certain customs 

duties; 

.A bill (S. No. 875) for the relief of Thomas Hughes; and 

.A bill (S. No. 849) to prevent hazing at the Naval .Academy. 

REPORTS OF COM:'IUTTEES. 

Mr. CARPENTER, (1-lr. WRIGHT in the chair,) from the Committee 

to Audit and Control the Contingent Expenses of the Senate, who were by a resolution of the Senate of January 26, 1 74, instructed to 

in<tftire into the expediencyof excluding all articles from the stationei·y-room except paper, pens, pencils, ink, envelopes, and mucilage, 

asked to be discharged from the. further consideration of the subject; 

which was agreed to. 

He also, from the same committee to whom was referred a resolution offered by Senator WEST directing the Secretary of the Senate to 

pay John Ray and ·william L. McMillen each full compensation as Senator for the unexpired term for which they were elected, as shown 

by their respective credentials, until the 4th of March, 1873, submitted a report thereon, which was ordered to. be printed; and ac- companied by the following resolution: 

Resolved, That the a{)tual expenses nooessarily incurred by .John Ray and William L. McMillen, claimants to a scat in ·the Senate from the State of Louisiana in 

the Forty-seconu Con$l'ess, in presenting their .r espective claims to a seat in the 

Senate, be paid out or the conting_ent fund of the Senate, which expenses shall be 

presented, itemized, and verified l>Y the oaths of said Ray and McMillen , respccth-ely, ·and the amounts shall be aumted by the Committee to Audit a.nu Control the 

Contingent Expenses of the Senate. 

1\fr. CARPENTER also, from the same committee, to whom was re- . £erred the motion of Mr. HAMLIN that hereafter no or<ler or requisition for stationery for the use of the I'eporters' gallery of the Senate 

shall be issued by the Presjding Officer of the Senate, which refer- ence was accompanied with instructions to the committee to report 

to the Senate when the practice of furnishing stationery to thereporters' gallecy began, the cost of stationery furnished, and whether 

such practice should not be discontinued, submitted a report thereon; 

which was ordered to be printed, accompanied by the following order, 

the adoption of which is recommended by the committee: 

Ordered, That the Select Committee oil the Revision of the Rules direct the sup. ply of such articles of stationery as they may ueem expedient to those entitled to admission into the reporters' gallery, and that their orders therefor be filled by 'the keeper of stationery. 

, Mr. CARPENTER. I am directed by the Committee on the JudiciaJ"y, who were by a resolution of the Sena.te of May 8, 187 4, instructed 

to inquire whether section 3 of the " act to establish a police court 

for the District of Columbia, and for other purposes," approved June 

17, 1870, in so far as it denies a trial by jury, be constitutional, to ask 

to be discharged from the further coneideration of the resolution. A 

bill wa.s reported on this subject the other day, a,nd this resolution 

should have been returned at that time, but was overlooked by mjstake. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER, (Mr. WRIGHT in the chair.) The com- mittee will be discharged if there be no objection. 

GEJ..~VA AWARD. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. The conference report on the Geneva 

award bill was partially read when the Senate took a recess. I n.sk 

that the reading proceed. 

The Chief Clerk resumed and concluded the reading of the report, as follows: 

The committee on conference on the disa.,IY!'eeinrr vot-es of the two Houses on the 

bill (8. No.7) for the creation of a court for the adJudication and disposition of cer- tain moneys received into the Treasury under an n.ward made by the tribunal of 

arbitration constituted by virtue of the first article of the treaty concluded at Washington the 8th of May, .A.. D. 1871, between the United States of America and 

the Queen of Great Britain, having met, and after full and free confereno(', have 

agreed to recommend, and do recommend, to their reRpective Houses, as follows: 

That the House recede from its amendment to the bill of the Senate and agree to the same with the following modification1

, namely: Strike out section 5 and insert as section 5 a. new section in the words fouowing: 

" SEC. 5. That the President may designate a counselor at law, admitted to prac- tice in the Supreme Court of the United ;:;tates, to appear as counsel on behalf of the 

United t."ttes and represent the interests of the Government in said suit, and in all claims filed for indemnity for losses, as provided by this act, subject to the super- vision and control of the Attorney-General. Such counsel shall receive for his serv- ices and expenses such reasonable allowance iu each claim as may be -approvecl by the court, to be apportioned m each claim. adjudicated, and paid from said awara upon the certificate of one of thejuuges." Strike out, commencing ou lino 11, section 11, "aml all claims provable or to be 

allowed under this act shall be stated and adjnd~ctl u~on the basis of United States 

gold coin at the time of the loss" and insert instead ' all claims." 

Strike out in section 14, commencing on line 4, the words "shall retain in the 

Treasury 5J?er cent. of the amount of the judgments rendered by the said court,'' 

and on the e1ghtb llne of same section strike out "95 per cent. of." Commencing on .the twenty:second line of the same section strike out the words "deducting nevertheless :from each of the said juugments and r etaining in the Treasury 5 per cent. of the amount of the said ,judgments respooti 'Tely." 

On second line of the fifteenth section strike out the words "in coin." • On the twenty-seventh line of the same section strike out the words "the same shall be carrietl to the general fund of the Treasur.v," and insert instead "the same shall be and remain a. fund from which Congress m:ty hereafter a.uthorize the pay- ment of other claims thereon." 

.After the sixteenth section insert the two followinc:r sections, to wit: 

''SEc. 17. In a ·certaini.ng the amount of such losses the memorials, affidavits, depo- sitions, ann any other papers in the several cases of losses claimed respectively, now 1iled in thoStateDepartment, or official copies thereof, may be read in evidence: Pro- V"ided That no affidavit shall be read except where it apJ?ears to the satisfaction of 

the tribunal that the affiant cannot be produced before 1t aa a witnesa or his testimony taken by commission upon interro~tories; and in the hearing of the cause nny party claiming shall produce all books, papers, letters, and documents that 

may be called for by a general description thereof by ~ny opposing party, or satisfactorily account for their loss or non-procluction, or suff£1r such jndjrmeut as is 

prescribetl in section 15 of the act entitled ".A.n act to establish tho judicial courts of the United States," approved e.ptember 29, 1789; and on the bearing of the cause any competent evidence may be produced by either party, either viva voce or by deposition taken upon interrogatories; and for this purpo e depo itions may be 

taken by either party de bene, or tne court may admit affidavits where it is atlsfa.ctorily shown that the witness cannot be prouuced or his examination by interroga- tories and cro a-examination cannot be ha<l. 

'' S-:tc. 18. That in case any judc:rment is rendered by said court for indemnity for 

any loss or claim hereinbefore mentioned against the United States at the time of 

the giving of t.hejudgment, the court shall, upon motion of the attorney or counsel 

for the claimant, allow out of the amount thereby a. warded such reasonable counsel 

and attorney fees to the counsel and attorney employed by the claimant or claimants· re pectively as the court shall determine is just and reasonable, as compensation for 

the services rendered the claimant in J?rosecuting such claims, which allowance 

shall be entered as part of the judgment m such case, and shall bo maue specifically payable as a part of said judgment for indemnification to the l1.ttorney <1r conn et, or both, to whom the same shall be aujudged; anu a. warrant shall is ·ue from the 

Treasury iu favor of t.he person to whom such allowance shall be maue respectively, which shall be in full compensation to the counsel or attorney for pro ecuting such 

claim; antl all other liens upon, or a signments, sales, tran fers, either absoiute or conditional, for services rendered or to fie rendered about any claim or part or yarcel thereof provided for in this bill heretofore or hereafter made or done before such 

~~1!f:dt ~s:C,~~r:ff~t!;d the warrant issued therefor, shall be absolutely null and 

And the Senate agree to the same. F. T. FRELINGHUYSEN, 

GEO. G. WRIGITT, 

Managers on the part of Uw Senate. 

BEN.T. F. BUTLER, 

WM.P.FRYE, Mrtn~!Je?'S on the pa1·t of the House. 

l\fr. THURMAN. I wish to know the status of this report. I was not in when the reading commenced, and I was told upon my retUI'll 

by half a <lozen Senators or more that no vot-o was taken upon proceeding to the consideration of the report and that the question was will the Sellate proceed to its consiueration, and t.hat thereupon a call was made for the reading of the report for information. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER, (Mr. WRIGHT.) The Chair understa,nds the question to -be on agreeing to the report of the committee 

of conference. The report is now before the Senate. 

Mr. THURMAN. H is very indifferent to me how it is ; but I was told by divers Senators that the motion was made a,nd never. put 

whether the Senate would proceed to tho consideration of the report. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The report is before theSenate. 

:Mr. THURM.A.J..'{. The Senator from New Jersey who makes the r~ 

port is entitlerl to state what it is to the Senate, if he desires to do so. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. President---

Mr. CLAYTON. I wish to a k the Senator from New Jorsey, without displa-oing the regular order, to allow me to call up a re olution 

from the Commjttce on Territories. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. If it does not take time. 

Tli.e PRESIDING OFFICER. The resolution of the Senator from 

Arkausa.s will be read. 

l\Ir. CLAYTON. It was a resolution reported the other day from 

the Committee on Territories to a,uthorize the committee to sit lluring 

the recess. 

Mr. BOUTWELL. I object to the resolution. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator from Massachusetts 

objects, and the resolution cannot be considered now. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. The committee of conference had many 

interviews in reference to this hill. 'The result was that the House 

of Representatives receded from its amendments a,nd adopted the en- ate bill with some modifications. Passing by formalities, the shape 

of the report and of the bill which will be formed on this report now, 

·is this: that those are paid out of this fund who every en a tor here 

andeverymemberof the House of Representatives unanimously agree are entitled to be paid; and that is all. There ought to be no doubt or question as to tho propriety of adopting this report when the repori 

provides that those shall be paid who every Senator and every Congressman has voted should be paid. 

Mr. MORTON. Will the Senator name the class f 

lr. FRELINGHUYSEN. The cla s to be paid are those who have 

suffered los es by the .Alabama, the Florida, the Shenandoah after 

she left Melbourne, and their tenders, those who e elainls were allowed by the Geneva arbitration. That includes those insurers who 

have suffeFed loss. ·But the report is much moreliberal toward other 

clas es than the Senate bill. The Senate bill provided that after 

those were paid the remainder of the fund should be covered into the 

Treasury. The report expressly provides that it shall remain a fund 

subject to such claims as ConO'ress may authorize against it. Therefore all that we do is to pay t~ose that everybody agrees are entitled 

to be paid, leaving the question as to war premiums, a.s to insurance 

companies, a.s to those who suffered loss by means of other confederate cruisers, to be determined hereaft-er. It seems to mo that it would 

be a great act of injustice, it would be a great act of dishonesty for 

this nation, after two or three years, to withhold payment from tho e who every member of Congress of both Houses agrees are entitled to 

be paid. 

The House of Representatives further concede to the Senate the 

right to have this question determined by a commission, instead of 

going through the courts. So that we have substantially the Senate 

bill modified in that it leavf'.s the question open for further claimants. 

Of course we had to concede something, and there is a certain ma- chinery as to the attorneys and counselors and the compensation 

which they are to receive. In that regard we adopted the House bill; 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5359 . 

but that subject is always open and under the control of CongresS. 

That provision, which was introduced here in the Senate a.gainst the 

will of the committee, that the claimants should settle their accounts 

in golu, bas been stricken out and the whole subject is left open to the 

adjudication and determination of the tribunal. I hope that this 

bill will at once receive the approval of the Senate. 

JJI.r. THURMAN. Mr. Presiuent, I know how difficult it is to defeat 

the report of n. conference committee, no mn,tter how unjust and erro- neous thn,t report may be. The very worst legislation that passes 

Congress passes in the shape of the adoption of the reports of con- ference committees. · They pass at the last hours of the session when 

it is almost impossible to get the ear of anybody; and I do not know now that I shall be listened to on this subject by one-third of the Senators w:hose votes will ultimately determine the fate of this bill. 

Bnt, sir, I n,m serious in this matter, and I hope that some at least 

will listen to the objections I have to this report. The Senator from New Jersey says that it would be an act of great 

dishonesty not to pay those who every member of Congress agrees are entitled to be paid. I say so too; I said so a year ago when we sought then to get the managers on the part of the House to agree to 

precisely a bill of that character; and if this bill was that which it 

has been described to be, n. bill to pay those who every member of 

Congress agrees are entitled to be paid and remit the claims of others 

to the consideration of Congress at a future day, then it would receive 

my support if another error in the bill were corrected. But is it that 

bill I am very glad to hear the Senator from New Jersey say that 

that is the bill; I was very glad to hear the Senator from Vermont 

this afternoon say that was the bill; and I h9pe that theu· interpretation placed on the bill will not be forgotten in the future. But I do 

say that if even ambiguous words were used to be brought up in the 

future to defeat that very interpretation, this bill contains those 

words. If that was the object of this bill, why in Heaven's name was it not placed in clear and honest language f It could have been put 

in ten lines, that all the uninsured property destroyed by the cruisers 

for whose acts Great B1·itailil wa~ held to be responsible, should be 

paid out of this fund-that is all that was necessary-and that the 

elaiins on the residue of the funcl should be remitted to COiyFess to 

aetermine in futm·e. That would have been all simple, au plain. 

There could have been no question at all about it. 

But what is the language of the bill T So far from that being the 

case, the managers take the twelfth section of the Senate bill, con- taining among other things this provision : 

And no claim shall be admissible or allowed by said court by or in behalf of any insurance company or insurer, either in its or his own right, or as a Rignee, or otherwise, in the right of a person or party in!lured as aforesaid, unless such claim· ant shall show, to the satisfaction of said court, that during the late rebellion the sum of its or his losses, in respect to its or his war ri k , exceeded the sum of its or his prernimus or other gains upon or in respect to snch war risks; and in caso of 

any such a.llowance, the same shall not be greater than such excess of l~ss. 

This conference bill then provides for the adjudication and payment of all the uninsured property which everybody agrees ought to 

be paid for. It then goes further and provides that iusm·ance com- panies may be paid, if upon an exhibit of their busiuess they have sus- tained loss, the exec of their loss above their profits. It expressly, 

therefore, provides for insurance companies, but limits the amount 

of their payment to the excess of their losses over and n.bove their 

profits. It contains thn.t very provision in the bill which upon the _ forest vote that was taken in the Senate was voted out of the bill in 

the Senate by 8 majority. 

.Mr. EDMUNDS. Will the Senator allow me to suggest to him--

Mr. THURMAN. I would rat.her not be broken in upon right here 

in the midst of a sentence. I will listen to the Senator with pleasure 

after a w bile. 

Now, sir, every member of Congress did not admit the right of in- surance companies even to that amount of payment, for there are votes for excluding them entirely; but this bill provides, as I said 

before, for the payment of the uninsured property destroyed by the 

guilty cruisers; and by "guilty cruisers" I mean those whom the 

tribunal at Geneva held to be guilty. It provides for the payment of 

uninsured property, which every member of Congress and everybody 

else admits are valid claims and ought to be paid; and -then it goes on to provide that the insurance companies may be paid their losses over and above the gains upon their business, the excess of loss-not 

paid the amount of their claims, not paid for the property which they 

had insured and which had become theirs by virtue of subrogation 

and assignment, but simply shall be paid, provided upon an exhibit 

of a balance-sheet by them it shall appear that their lo ·ses exceeded 

the amount of their gains, and then they shall be paid only the excess. Having provided, Mr. President, for payment to these insura.nce companies who sustained loss on their whole business the amount of 

the loss, provided that amount does not exceed the amount of the 

policy, what further does this bill provide in respect to the remainder 

of the fund 7 Why, sir, it' provides that after having paid for the 

uninsured property, and after having paid the insurance companies 

the excess of their lo ses over and above their gains growing out of 

the fund, then "if there shall remain any part of the said money"- now comes the conference committee's language-" the same shall be 

and remain a fund from which Congress may hereafter authorize the 

11ayment of other claims thereon." What is meant by ''other claims 

thereon'" What will it be said to mean next winter 1 It will be sn.id 

. 

to mean claims other than claiins of insurance companies; it will be 

said to mean that the claims of insurance companies are provided for 

in this bill and limited to a certain recovery, and that the other claims 

which may come in upon the remainder of this fund are the claims 

other than those of the insurance companies. That is the meaning of 

this language, or at least that is what will be claimed to be its mean- ing when this mn.tter comes up next winter if the bill should pass. 

Mr. ED:;\IUNDS. I should like to ask a question. I will not now put the question I desired to put when the Senator declined to yield, 

because he has gone beyond thn.t part of the subject. On this part he 

says it will be claimed next winter that the words he has read will be 

construed to mean other claims than those of the insurance companies. Does the Senator think that is the true and fair meaning of the 

language as it reads f Or is it the fair and true meaning, as it reads, 

that claims other than those allowed or adjudicated upon by the tribunal are open for the further adjudication of Congress, and inasmuch a~ we only authorize the adjudication of a certain class of insurance 

clainis and not thqse in respect of which the companies made a profit, 

is not the fair meaning, let me ask the Senator, that there will be 

open for consideration next winter the claims of insurance companies 

to the full extent that they have demanded, except so far as we have 

already provided for them by the case which we have allowed 7 

Mr. THURMAN. What is far more important to those who I think are entitled to justice in this cas , iH that I should know what the 

Senator from Vermont thinks of this bill. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Does the Senator decline to answer the question 

I put to him 'f 

:Mr. THURMAN. No, sir; but I would prefer greatly to have the 

Senator's answer first. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I think I will. have the Senator's answer first, 

because I put the question first, and then I will answer him when it 

is my turn. 

Mr. THURMAN. I will only say that if I had to decide it I should 

put upon tho e words this construction : that " other claims" would 

include the claims·of insurance companies to that which they had not 

received under this bill but which they claim they are entitled toreceive. 

Mr. ED:MUNPS. Then the Senator thinks they would be entitled 

under this act to come in for a further claim. 

Mr. THURMAN. I say if I had the decision, that would be my 

decision. 

Mr. ED:l\IUNDS. And if the Senator had the decision he would 

decide according to his hone't judgment Y 

Mr. THURUAN. Certainly I should. Mr. EDMUNDS. I should decide in exactly the same way, and that answers the Senator's que tion. 

Mr. THURMAN. I am glail to hear·the Senator say so. Mr. ED:UUNDS. I have no doubt of it at all. · Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Will my friend permit me f 

Mr. THURMAN. Certainly. I shoulU. like to have as many as possible. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I ·may further say, I should decide that 

question exactly as the Senator from Ohio aud the Senator from V er- mont have stated that they would decide it, a-nd I would strengthen 

my decision by referring to the context to which I call the attention 

of the Senator from Ohio : 

And after the payment of the said judgments and the reimbnrsementof the ex- penses !lS herein provided, if there shall remain any part of the aid money, the same shall be and remain a fund from which Congre s sha.llhereafterauthorizethe 

.payment of any other claims thereon. 

"Any other claims" means other cla.ims than those which have been 

paid, and clearly includes the war premiums, the insurance companies, 

the lo ses by other confederate cruisers, if Congre s think that either 

of those classes is a proper claim. Ir. THURMAN. Well, Mr. President, I must say that I am rejoiced 

to bear that interpretation put upon it by these managers; and I 

hope it will not he forgotten next winter should this bill become a law; but I venture to say that if we live to see this ubject up again 

before us, there will be men, not the Senator from New Jersey, not 

the Senator from Vermont, but there will be men to put directly the 

opposite interpretation upon the e words. 1\Ir. EDMUNDS. May I ask the Senator a question! 

Mr. THURMAN. Certainly. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I do not mean to interrupt the Senator in his 

remarks unless be is entirely satisfied. 

Mr. THURl\IAN. It is no disturbance. 

l\Ir. EDMUNDS. I should like to ·ask the Senator, supposing his 

interpretation upon this point, and mine and that of my friend from 

New Jersey, to be the correct interpretation, as we all agree it is, what 

is the objection to agreeing to this report because in that point of 

view it seems to provide merely for the time being for those who 

both parties a.gTee ought to be paid anyhow 'f 

l\Ir. THURMAN. Because the Senator from New J ersey, the Senator from Vermont, and the Senator from Ohio do not constitute the 

whole Senate of the United States and much less the Congress of the 

United States, ancl I have seen enough on this subject to make m~ 

doubt exceedingly-and I say it without disrespect to anybodywhether those who have to settle this great question will alwn.ys settle it according to the suuncl dictates of justice and common sense. I am too much a:f!aid of outside pressure and outside influence. I aii,l 
5360 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD~ J uNE' ·22; 

not speaking at a.ll of any corrupt iullnence, I never impute any such 

thing, but of that pre ure that bears on member of Congre s and 

makes them see things in a light that without any such pressure would 

never in the world be een by them. Mr. EDMUNDS. l\by I ask the Senator what he means by "outside pre ure " Does he mean the pressure that is well understood 

to have been made by the inBnranee companies during all this session 'I 

Mr. THURMAN. I do not know of any such pressnre. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I do. 

Mr. THURMAN. If the Senator does, then the Senator has more knowledge than I have. · I spoke of that pressure which unaccountably arrays people of a particular section where particular losers are against anybody else but those losers. That is the kind of pressure 

that I meant, which influences the member of Congress, who has war- premium men in his district and has no other claimants, to go for the 

war-premium men whethertheyhave a right to any of this money or not, and which in the arne way make the represqntatives of those 

whose propertywasnottaken by either of the guilty cruisers in favor 

'>f bringing them all in within this award although their claim were expresSly rejected by the tribunal at Geneva, and I know very well 

tha,t those men are not like1y to be governed by what is said by three 

Senators on this floor as to the meaning of this report, for they will 

say that tho e Senators might speak for themselve , but they had no right to speak for the Senate of the United State . That will be it. 

"Who authorized any thr e Senator to speak for the whole Senate 

of the United States P will be the question which these men will 

put when this subject shall come up a~ain next winter. 

I say, further, on this subject that It may be argued, and argued 

with great plausibility, that four.such men as have signed this con- ference report if they had meant simply that the uninsured property 

should be paid for would have said so in o many plain worcls, and 

it would not have taken ten lines to say it, and that when they have 

gone ail around the bush with three long sections to expre s that 

idea, they must have meant something more than that the uninsured 

property which wa lost by the depredation of the guilty cruisers 

should be paid for, and which every man agrees ought to be done. 

I say, then, this report ought to be recommitted, if for no other purpo e, to be put in good, plain, honest English, without any ambiguity. 

We cannot amend it in t he Senate. If we could a,mend it, we could 

make it plain so as to convey exactly the idea which is &'tid to be its 

meaning by the Senators from Vermont and New Jersey. But we cannot amend it, and it ought to be sent back that those gentlemen 

who are quite masters of the English L<tngnage might employ plain, 

sjmple, unambiguous words to express the idea wp.ich they mean to 

convey. . But, Mr. President, there is another reason why this conference re- port ought not to be adopted, anu it is this: The Senate, after care- ful deliberation and no. little di cUBsion, on the motion of my colle3igne inserted this clause in the bill: 

And all cbims provable or to be alloweu under this act, shall be stated and adjudged upon the basis of United States gold coin at the time of the loss. 

These words are stricken out by the conference committee. What 

is the meaning of striking those words out 'I As long as those words were in there was a perfect tandard by which to try the measure of 

the losses of these claimants, and no one could obtain any advantage over another. The1·e was a perfect, unvarying standard by which 

their chim could be tried and adju ted. Now, what is the effect of 

striking the e words out The etfect of striking them out is simply 

this, and I beg your attention to it : These valuations are to be made a at the time of tho los es, according to the affidavits that haye been 

filed in -the Department of State. The loss is valued in greenbacks. 

The consequence is if A bad a ship worth $5,000, and B had another 

shlp worth precisely the same amount of money, and A's ship was Jo t when gold was 280 and B's ship wa lo t when gold was only 140, 

the claim of the one who lost his ship when gold was 230 is exactly 

twice the amount of his fellow-citizen's who lo t exactly the same amount of property in value at a time when gold was 140. That is 

precisely it. And now the proposition is that men shall have that 

ad vantage, that you shall have no uniform sta.nclard. Must you not 

have a uniform standard f How are you to find out what is the 

amount .so that justice may be done relatively between the e two 

parties, so that no man may get any advantage over another byfal8e or erroneous valuations f You mUBt come to some standard. Do 

greenbacks furnish you that standard f When greenbacks were shifting in value from day to day from 5 to 10 and 20 per cent. when gold w nt up from 40 per cent. to 280, or greenbacks, in other words, ran down to· only thirty-two or thirty-three cents on the dollar, do green- b acks furnish any such standard Everybody sees at once they do 

not. The only way in which you can get a proper standard so that 

each man's lo s should be relatively correct with regard to every 

ot her man's lo , is to take the gold standard and reduce the loss 

when stated in greenbacks to the gold standard, and thereby make 

the arne standard for each and every one of the e losers. Striking 

out this clause and giving greenbacks therefor does the grossest injustice to the man whose property was lo t when greenbacks were at a less di proportion than they were at the time when another man's 

property was lost. 

But, sir, there is still another objection to that. In addition.to the 

gross inequality that will r esult from striking out these words, there 

is' tbi further injustice, and I might say dishonesty. we· received 

~~ award in gold; it was paid to u~ in gold; and. having received 

It ID gold we ought to pay the losers rn the same meilium. There is no propriety in our receiving it in gold and then paying them in a depreciated currency. The~e valuations were made, assumed to be 

made at lea..st, on a gold bas1s, for the award was to pay it in gold 

a~d it cannot be presllll;ted that the estimate was made by the Genev~ tnbunal on a paper basis, and that then the amount upon that p~lper 

basis was ordered to be paid in gold. It must therefore be assumed a~d such is undoubted1y the fact, that the estimate upon which that 

tribunal went was. that the amount of 15,500,000 represented in gold our loses and the rnterest upon those losses allowed bythat tribunal. 

~· EJ?M:UNDS .. Doe~ the Senator say, if I do not trouble him by 

asking him a question-1f I do I certainly do not wish to interferedoes the Senator mean to say that he believes the Geneva tribunal re- duced the American claims to a gold basis at the various dates when 

the destructions took place ' 

. Mr. T~RMAN. I say they did as near as they were able to do it, 

ill my belief. I cannot suppo e they were guilty of the absolute 

no_n entse of taking tho e claims :upon a paper basis that was fluctuatmg everr day, and order~ng Great Britain to pay them in gold. I 

cannot.beli.eve any s~ch th~g. ~e do not know precisely the pro- cess by which they did amve at It; but we do know ometbino- of 

the proce · . WeknowthattheBritish counsel argued, and the British 

Board of Tr3ide argued, that roo t probably the claims were stated in ~~e:r:backs and ought to be r~cluced to gold. That we know because 

It lS ID the report; but when It was provided in the treaty and when 

the award of the Geneva tribunal was that the payment wa to be in 

gold of the amount found due by them, it · must be held that they 

understood that the damages were that much in gold, It cannot be 

upon any other principle. They could not have ·awarded it upon any 

other prin?iple. They did not mean to award damages that never w~re sustailled. They meant to award the damages that were sus- tamed, and the damages that were sustained were so many Inillions 

in gold. That is the award which the made, and now we propo e to tak~ that gold, and ins~ead of P.aying that to the ufterers, to pay 

them ill a cu.."Tency that lS depreCiated 12 or 13 per cent. That is 

what we propo e to do. · 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. If my friend will perlnit me, I do not 

think there is anything in this report-if there is I am not aware of itthat decides how the payment hall be made. The bill as passed by . tbe Senate and the report together amount to this : that we appoint a competent court, con isting of five members, who are to decide the 

several cases that come before them in conformity with the principles 

of law and the merits of the several cases, without determining one way or the other whether thecalculationisto be made in greenbacks or in gold; and I do believe, with all respect to my friend, that a competent court of five judge will come to as just a determination 

wit~ calm deliberation as we shall in these expiring hours of a weary sesswn. 

Mr. THURMAN. Mr. Pre ident, I would think so too if it did not 

happen-! wish I had a greenback in my pocket--

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I have got one which I will lend the 

Senator. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I supposed the last act we passed would have 

filled your pockets before this time. 

Mr. THURMAN. I did not understand t h e Senator. 

I\-ir. EDMUNDS. I suppo ed the grand finance act would have 

filled the Senator's pockets with greenbacks before this time. 1\~. THURMAN. I wa-s against infla-tion. 

1\li. EDMUNDS. I supposed you would have your share after yon 

got it. 

Mr. THURMAN. I have got a one-dollar note. I am very much 

afraid if this mn.tter is left as this conference committee report it, 

when the claimant comes for his money the Secretary of the Trea -

ury or the Secretary of State will pull out a greenback and read to 

him these words : . 

This note is a legal tender n.t its face value for a.ll debt.\!, public and private 

except duties on imports and interest on the public debt. ' 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. If theyshoulddosotheonlyresultwould 

be that thei'e would be more of the fund left for the war prelniums, 

the insurance companies, and those who suffered by the general losses 

from the cruisers. 

Mr. THURMAN. That is all very true; and if greenbacks were only worth twenty-five cents on the dollar and you paid them in, 

greenbacks there would be more left yet, and we might divide it 

among the people per capita and prodace a little inflation in that way .. The plain matter of it cannot be misunderstood. What would you say of a lawyer that would receive a thousand dollars in gold for bis 

client and instead of. paying him the thousand dollars which he had 

recovere.d for him should say, "I will give you my promissory note, 

worth eighty-five cents on the dollar, and I will take 15 per cent: 

profit and shave on this transaction Y" You would say that wa a dis- honest lawer. You would put him over the bar very quick, any bon-· est court would, and yet that for which you would debar an attorney 

it is proposed this great Government shall do; that it having received 

this award in gold for tho e who have suffered by the depredations 

of those cruisers, shall t.hen pay them in its depreciated notes worth 

not more than eighty-five cents on the dollar and take the remaining 

15 per cent. and give it to somebody who was no~ ~ntitled to it under 

• 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5361 

the award. If that is honesty I cannot see it. If there is anything 

that is consistent with justice, with the honor, with the character of 

this great Government in such a proceeding as that, I confess I am totally unable to see it. That which would make a private man infamous cannot be consistent with the justice and the honor of a great 

nation. · These are the two principal objections that I have to this confer- ence report. There are some others, but they are of minor importance. There is one that I will allude to, wherein I think it is entirely .. wron(J'; and that is that this court of ours are to fix the compen. a- tion that attorneys are to receive from the claimants, and that tbe 

amount of the compensation thus fixed by the court is to be paid out 

of the Treasury of the Unitea States out of this award, "that is, out 

of the judgment in favor of the particular client. I always supposed 

that it was the safest way to let clients and their attorneys make 

their own bargains, that it was safest for the client and safest for the 

attorney; but this bill proposes to disable clients from making any 

such contract, and declares that all such contracts heretofore made, 

and lLll that shall hereafter be made, shall be null and void, and that 

the court shall determine wha-t shall be the compensation of the 

lawyer, and that the compensation the court shall decree to be taken 

out of the amount awarded to his client; in other words, disabling . those two men from making any contract whatever in regard to the 

compensation of the attorney. It may po ibly be that practically 

that will work for the benefit of some of these claimants. In some cases, I dare say, it will protect them against dishonest attorneys; 

but considering what kind of a tribunal it is that this bill contemplat-es, considering that it is to be a tribunal of :five distinguished 

lawyers, well paid for their services, and before whom the meaner sort of the profession are not likely to appear, it does seem to me -'-hat for one case in which a man may be protected by this provision 

against the exorbitant charges of an attorney, there may be ten cases in which the amount awarded by the court to the lawyer will be ex- orbitant and exces ive; for in a long experience at the bar· I have 

found it to be almost always the case that allowances of ,lawyers'· fees by the courts were far in excess of the amounts that lawyers re- ceive from their clients by contract. · That is the general rule, and I 

think that is a bad feature in this bill; but if the bill were right in 

other respects-if the bill were not of that ambiguous character that 

I have pointed out in regard to claims that are reserved for adjudication hereafter, or for the action of Congress hereafter, and if the bill were right in respect to the standard by which the loses are to be 

tried-! might forego any objection to this minor matter of the 

allowance of counsel fees by order of the court. 

I have only a few more words to say. I have already occupied as much of the time of the Senate as I care to do, but I will mention 

what I ought to have said when I was considering this question of 

striking out the provision that the claims should be stated and ad- jud~ed upon the basis of gold coin at the time of the lo s. One 

mignt suppose from the remarks of the Senator from New Jersey 

that the court would exactly adopt that standard; but can it be 

supposed, after tho e words were inserted upon a full debate, if Con- gress afterward strikes them from the bill, that any court will feel 

at liberty to administer the act as if those words were retained in it, 

the very words which Congress bas stricken out Y I fear not; and 

therefore I say that those words ought to remain in the bill, and this 

conference report with those words stricken out ought not to be 

agreed to. 

I shall not to-night attempt to reargue the question about the 

exclusion of the insurance companies. I know that, unless my mind · shall undergo a change, which I do not think it is likely to undergo, 

I never can vote for any bill that does that great injustice as I be- lieve; and I do say now, and say it in all solemnity, that in my humble 

judgment there never was so deleterious an example set by any government in the world as is set by the provision in this bill that insur- ance companies shn.ll recover upon their claims if they have not made 

profit, but shall not recover if they have ma~e profit. Stripped of its 

verbiage, stripped of its disguise, tearing away the sophistry from it, 

it amounts simply to this, that the Congre of the United States says 

to the people of the United States, a man shall recover upon his claim 

not according to the validity of his claim, but according to the length or the brevity of his purse. If he is already rich enough, no matter 

how legal and valid his claim may be, the court shall turn him away 

from its doors and say, ':You have enough already: 11 but if he has 

been unfortunate in business, or improvident in business, or in ra h 

and unprincipled speculations, or has taken hazards that no prudent or honest man ought to take, and he has lost in his business, then 

upon a claim of precisely the same nature the court shall hold out its 

bands, welcome him to the portals of justice, give judgment in his 

favor, and execution to enforce the judgment.- Talk about commun- i m; talk about red republicanism; there never has been any greater 

communism than that which is written iu this bill which says that a man shall recover, not upon the ·validity of his claim, not upon the 

law which applie to it, but shall recover according to whether he h~,s been succe sful or unsuccessful in business. Mr. EDMUNDS. I do not want to occupy the time of the Senate 

in discussing the ethical question with which the Senator from Ohio 

has concluded his very entertaining speech. AE. a peroration, I cer- tainly admire it, because it goes into the regiollB of fancy and eloquence 

in such a way as to gild, as the setting sun does the atmosphere, this 

336 

conference report which usually is rather a dry thing you know. So 

I do not propose to begin by that kind of illumination or to leave off 

by it. It is enough to say that that question is now before the Senate. 

The conference report has provided merely to pay all those that 

both Houses agree ought to be paid, and at this time has not provided 

to pay anybody else, ·because the two Houses cannot agree as to paying anybody el e. What the use, therefore, is of going into a quan- tity of midnight eloquence over the subject of tho e unhappy insur- ance companies who divided 20 per cent. in coin every year, as I 

understand, I am not able to appreciate, unless it ~~ht be to prejudice 

the minds of people against the justice of paying tnose who ought to 

be paid now, as all agree, and to break down this report, which is of course the end of the bill for this se sion. That is the question. 

I only want to take a few minutes. The Senator is afraid that the 

term "other claims," which are to be provided for at a future session 

of Congress if Congress think :fit, will exclude the claims of the in- suranc companies, beQause they do under this bill file a claim within 

the junsdiction of the court. Mr. President, how extraordinary that 

is I Here we create a court and give it ajurisdiction to try one kincl 

of insurance claims, and that is whe1·e the insurance has met a loss. 

We do not authorize the court to try any insurance claim either way, 

to reject it or affirm it, where the insurance company made a profit. 

Tho e cases are left out al+.ogether . Then we say that having paid the ship-owner who wasnotinsnred, 

having paid the lo es of insurance companies who did not make a gain, having paid the owners of merchandise not insured, and the offi- cers and the sailors, the rest of this money shall be subject to the · future disposition of Congress in providing for other claims that may 

be pre anted. Now, can anybody doubt that an insurance company 

is entitled to present its other claim and get it if Congres in its judg- ment shall think it is entitled to it Y The Senator himself- and that 

ought to be enough for the Senate on this question of justice to these 

poor men, sailors and officers, who have waited nowforthreeyears- tbe Senator p.imself says that this report as it reads does not exclude 

the future consideration of the e insurance claims. He does not ex- press himself any doubt about it, on the face of it, and he knows that 

the other gentlemen of the conference committee and-the other mem- bers_ uf the Committee on the Judiciary agree with him entirely. He 

knows ii he has read the debate-and I have a right to refer to it on a conference report-that the House of Representat.ives agreed to 

this upon the same understanding precisely. Therefore, did I not 

know the Senator from Ohio, I should imagine that he was resorting 

to a parliamentary expedi~nt to ~reak down this report altogethel' and 

send these empty-handed men who have never been redressed in any 

way over to some future Congress, because forsooth some other claim 

that he wanted in did not get in because it was under dispute. But 

of course I respect the honorable Senat9r from Ohio too much:. to b~­

lieve that he means that; bn the acts in exactly the way he would act 

if he did mean it. So much for that. . Let no man, therefore, vote against this report who wishes to pay 

the uninsured ship-owner, as the Senator _wishes to do and as I wish 

to do, and the sailor and the officer and the uninsured merchandi e- man, upon the idea that he is afraid that the construction of this bill 

will prevent the stock insumn'Ce companies. from appealing to Con- ~Tess hereafter. He says himselfitwillnot. Wehaveall statedthat 

1t will not. Any intelligent person who can read it will see that it will 

not. The House of Representatives has a~reed to it on the ground that 

it will not, and upon the simple- ground tnat we will do the justice to 

the uninsured people that we ought to have done last year and leave 

disputed questions to be considered next time. And as-my friend 

from Wisconsin [Mr. CARPEl\'TER] very properly suggcsts,1if the bill 

said in terms that it should bind t,hem it would not have the slightest 

effect. It is the right of every citizen to petition Congress at every se sion and to get this law reversed if it stood so; but I need not ~e;ue 

that. The Senator from Ohio himself says it does 'not say so. Ail of us say it does not say so. The House of Representatives, according 

to the debate, say it does not say so. Wherefore, then, are you pre ed 

to reject this report, which carries everything over to the next ses- sion, upon any such ground t I know the Senator from Ohio does not mean it; but if l).e were so much in love with the :e insurance claims 

that he would-ruin all until he could get them, he would pursue preci ely the course that he does now. But, as I say, I know he does not mean that. He is overexcited on the subject. 

Now let us go a little f-urther. The next trouble js the gold payment. The Senator says the Geneva tribunal made this award 1n 

gold. So they did make it in gold. He says they stated the account on a gold basis, reducing- all claims to gold, as he supposes. I ask 

him for the evidence of 1t. The onl:v evidence ·he can furnish is the 

argument of the British counsel, wlio said that our claims were ex- aggerated because they suspected that they were stated in currency, 

and therefore that they were altogether too high. If they were stated 

in the currency of this country, where they ha~· to build their ships 

and pay for them in currency and where they bought their merchandise and paid for it in currency to send to foreign coun~ries, where 

they :fitted out their whalers and paid for their supplies in currency, 

there would be some sense in providing for the payment in such a way 

that they might be made good. But what is the practical use in say~ 

ing that these claims shall be stated in gold or shall be stated in cur~ 

rencyf If you leave the matter to the tribunal without command 

either way, as this bill does, that they shall hear and determine these 
5362 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JuNE 22, 

claims according to their justice, without undertaking to say that 

they shall be stated in currency or in coin, leaving them a free and 

wholesome jurisdiction, what are they to do¥ They are to find out 

what the real and honest loss of the man was according to the circumstances of his case, and then they can provide eith.er that he sh~ll 

have an allowance in currency large enough to make It good to bnn 

in crol<l or that he can have 11.n allowance in gold if they choose so to 

render the judgment, for the Supre.me C~urt of the ~nite.d States has 

decidedthatitisopen for anycourtrnwhlCh apartyisentitled to have 

his claim considered as one to be paid in gold to render a judgment 

for the specific payment. The Senatm: well under~t!l'nds that. Therefore the leaving out of these words IS not a demsion adverse. to the 

views of the Senatorfrom Ohio who proposed that clause, [Mr. SHER- MAN · ] it is not a decision adverse to the view of the Senator from 

Ohio' who now oppo es it in his observations, [l\lr. TlroRl\UN.] It 

only refuses to cramp a jurisdiction by laying down in a.dvance a ~ule 

the application of which we cannotyremsely ~ee, to gmde th~ tnbun&.l; ancl now, as the bill is left with that struck out, we giv_e t!Ie 

tribunal plenary jurisdiction without undertaking to .control Its 

exercise either way, except we say that they shall be gm~ed by the 

principles of justice and truth. Can anybody .co~plarn of such a jurisdiction f I think not, l\lr. President; and It IS very far from 

being clear that laying down an iron rule prov:idin~ for the payment 

in coin and the statement of the account rn corn would resolve 

it elf into an advantacre for the claimant who was honest or to the 

benefit of the TreasurY, because it would driv~ the tri.lmnal t? enter 

into almost every month of tho state of the corn premmm durrng the 

whole war and the value of the ship and cargo-a ship built at one time, fitted out at another, its cargo bought at another. All that 

would-enter into the thing, and the consequence would be that you 

involve the ship-owners in a constant series of inquiries where they 

may be overrea{)hed by parties who may choo e to overreach them, or where the commission may do injustice to a party who does not try to 

overreach them. Now, if you leave their jurisdiction free as you leave 

the jurisdiction of every other comt free, as you leave the Comt of 

Claims free, to decide according to the law as it is now and to do justice, then the comt is nabled to ~o justice according to t.he .case that 

is made to it. Why do we not decide, on the Senator's prmmple, that 

the Court of Claims for all losses that occurred during the rebellion, 

contracts unperformed, property taken and u eel, shall settle with t~e 

cL'l>imant on a coin basis, have it reduced to that in order that his 

claim upon us ma.y not be exaggerated or may not be made too small f 

Because eve1·ybody sees that really .i,t is entirely an ;immaterial question. If you decide these ca es upon the basis of currency now and 

pay them on that basis, you have a uniform standard; and if a man bought or old on an inflated currency in 1863 so that he reall~ did 

not lo e as much as he appeared to do, then all you have to do IS to 

mitigate his claim accordingly; and if that is the law in the Court of 

Claims, the law in al~ the courts of the.United.States.act.ing betw:een 

parties, why should It not be the law rna clatm agamst the Urnted 

StatesV 

On the other hand, suppo e the la,w ought to. be that as we go~ co;in we ought to pay coin, then I repeat what I Said before that this bill 

allows the tribunal, it having complete jurisdiction over this subject, 

to render a judgment payable in coin if it thiu~s justice ~eq1.1ires.it to 

render such a judgment, becau e over the subJect that IS committed 

to it it has just as b.road a jmisdiction a has any coUI't over a subject 

committed to it, and we all know, as the Senator from Ohio doe 

him elf, that it is the settled law of :this country now that any court 

in renderincr judgment on a claim may declare, if in its judgment the 

contract or law requiring it, that it shall be paid in coin. That being 

the ca e there is no foundation for rejecting this report on the ground 

that we have not tied up the court in respect to how the account shall 

be stated, whether in coin or currency. That clause was struck out, 

not because the conferees of the Senate wished to disobey the vote 

of the Senate, but because the House would not submit to insert it; 

and we were endeavoring to reach the point that the Senator with me so strenuously trove for a year ago, and that was to do the very 

thing this bill now contains. Then the Senator agreed with me that we ought to make everything bend, as we did make everything bend, 

in offering to the House of Representatives to provide for these uninsured claimants, ship-owners, and sailors, n.nd officers. A year ago 

when we did that neither the bill of the Senate nor the bill of -the 

House contained anything on the subject of gold statement. Nobody 

thought that inju tice was being perpetrated then; and I very much 

doubt, if we had ·not hacl a screed for a fortnight on the subject of 

gold, whether it would have entered ito any body's head to make such a proposition. It was a sudden thought that came int') the mind of 

the enator from Ohio who sits nearest to me, [Mr. SHERMAN,] and 

who had had his head pretty full of gold and currency questions for 

the la t few weeks before. Nobody ever thought before that there 

wa any nece ity for this proposition. It had a certain plausibility. 

It was agreed to by the Senate, but the House would not agree to it; 

and now the enate recede from that and leaves the tribunal, as we propo ed a year ago, with a completejmisdiction to do the very thing 

the Senator ft:om Ohio wi bes to have done if it thinks complete 

justice and equity requii·e it. · 'Where, then, would b the justification for this body to postpone the 

payment of the claims that all parties on all ~ides, excepting a very 

small number in another place that I have no nght to refer to on that 

point-that all just men I think of all parties agree that it is a shamo we did not pay a yeal' ago, on this hair-splitting about what pos iblo 

construction somebody ca.n put on the bill against the judgment of my 

friend and all other Sena.tors here on the question of other claims and 

on dialectics upon the subject of how the account ~~\.~t to be st. ated, 

when we leave it to the tribunal to state it as itt · according to 

justice and equity it ought to be stated f 

Why, :Mr. President, it appears to me that we should occupy an attude that would not give us much pride to turn over to the world to- morrow morning the statement that we had refused to pay the uninsured hip-owner now that we had the opportunity; that we had re- fused to pay the poor sailor and the poor officer and the uninsured 

merchandise-man who have been waiting so long upon the grouncl 

that we thought some dishonest or Inisgnided man a year hence might 

pretend that this law·meant something which we say it does not mean or it was possible that this tribunal might not state an -account in a way to do justice between all parties when they had the power to do 

it. I should say, 

0, shame! where is thy blush 7 

:Mr. President, there is no foundation for this oppo ition to thi re- port if Senators are really in earne t in saying that they a.re willing 

to. give relief to ~ose to whom we ought to give it a they agree, 

without undertaking to defeat them, because we have not providecl 

for somebody else now, whom Senators believe ought to be provided 

for. But then the Senator from Ohio say that there is provision 

about the compensation for attorneys. The Senator well understands 

the rea on why that was put in, I have no doubt. That is to guard the 

large number of officers and ailors of these vessels ·and small interests in ships, small interest in merchandise, from the greed of attorneys, who take contingent fees and really swallow up the whole of a man's property in pretending to get it for him, whereas in all tho e cases where there i no dispute alwut the facts as we know, it i un- necessary that an attorney should have any fee at all or more than a small one. The party's evidence i in the hands of the State Department now; it is laid before the tribunal by this bill ; and if the ne- cessity for an attorney exi t at all, it will be where the compensation 

ought to be almost nominal, because there is very little to do. I~ was to protect this class of our citizens, as we do now in all the pension cases and as we have for years by the universal acquiescence of both 

Houses of Congress, against the greed and extortion of that cla-ss of 

attorneys who are con tautly preying upon the community, taking COD;tingen~ fees and exaggerating the diffi~nlties of gettin~ through 

clauns azamst the Govennnent when there I no need of therr services 

at all. 1 should have suppo ed that that would have commended 

itself to my friend, and so far I think from his remarks it did, but lw thou~ht that in la~·ge cases of large hip-owners they mi~ht be en- titlea to pay their. attomeys what they choose. That nnght do if · they were all of that cla s; but you cannot make one law for one antl 

another for another. So ou the whole I think that is a very wise and 

proper provision. 

I am sorry, Mr. President, that I have taken up so much time us I 

have, because the gentlemen who have charge of tllis report ai'e much more competent than I to discuss it. 

MESSAGE FROM: THE HOUSE. 

A me sage from the House of Representatives, by Mr. McPHER o:N, 

its Clerk, announced that the-House had pa ed the following bills: 

A bill (S. No. 906) to relieve C. L. Stevenson, of Virginia, of hi political disabilitie ; 

A bill (S.No.252)toremove the disabilities of JohnJulius Guthrie; . A bill (S. No. :313) to confirm the purchase of a po:rtion of the site 

of Fort Houston, at Nashville Tennessee, and to provide for the donation of the same to the Fisk University for educational purposes; 

also to confirm in the purchase of certain land n.t Fort Hamilton, New 

York; and 

A bill (S. No. 325) to remove the political disabilities of Van R. 

Morgan, of Virginia. 

The me sage also announced that the Hou e had pa sed a bill (H. 

R. No. 3778) changing name and location of Pittsfield National Bank, 

Pittsfield, New Ramp hire, to Second National Bank of :Manche ter, 

Hillsborough County, in said State; in which it requested the con- currence of the Senate . • 

EDUCATION REPORT. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tcmpm·e laid before the Senate the action of 

the House of Representatives non-concurring in the amendment of the 

Senate to the concmrent resolution of the House for the printing of 

:twenty thousand copies of the report of the Commissioner of Education. 

The amendment of the Senate was to strike out all a,fter the word 

"resolvecl" and insert: 

That there be printed five thousand copies of the report of the Commissioner of 

Education for 1873; of which twenty. five hundred copies sha.ll be for the use of the 

Commissioner, and twenty-five hunci.red copies sha.ll be for sale at the cost of papor and press· work, with an addition of 10 per cent., by the Congressioillll Printer. 

1\fr . .A.NTHOt-.TY. I suggested when this matter was first presented 

to the Senate that it was so late that a conference committee was hardly necessary, that it might be better to take the judgment of tho 

Senate upon the direct issue between the two Houses. The House of 

Representatives aTe very anxious to print a large number of this 

document. The Senate has not been in favor of printing so many. 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5363 

The Senate proposed to print five thousand, twenty-five hundred .for 

the use of the commissioners and twenty-five hundred ·for 'sale at 

cost and 10 per cent. added. The ·House wish to-print twenty thousand for the Senate, the House, and the commissioners. I -move, to 

take the sense of the Senate, thn.t the Senate recede from its amenrl.-

ment, which will leave the order stand for 'printin~ twenty thousand. 

I tmderstand that the post-office appropriation bill makes provision 

for sending the e documents through the mails at a reru>onable price. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. The Senator from Rhode Island 

moves that the Senate recede from its amendment. Mr. SHERMAN. I must object to the consideration of this matter 

until the Senator from Maine [Mr. MoRRILL] is present, who is now engaged in committee of conference on the sundry civil appropriation 

bill I am told. As soon as the post-office appropriation bill is settled 

there will be no difficulty in passing on this question. Mr. ANTHONY. Is there not another concurrent resolution on the 

table from the House t 

The PRESIDENT p1·o temp01·e. Does the Senator wish to have this 

re olu1ion laid aside t 

Mr. ANTHONY. Yes, sir. 

VIENNA EXPOSITIO:N REPORTS. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore laid before the Senate the following 

concurrent resolution of the House of Representatives: 

Resolved by 'he House of Representatives, (the Senq,te concurrin(1,) Tha.t of thereports of the United State commissioners to the Vienna. exposition there shall be 

printed, nuder the direction of the ecretary of State, four thousand copies for 

the House, two thou.Sa.nd copies for the Senate, and one thousand copies for the 

Secretary of State. 

Mr. ANTHONY. The e reports, if they are at all like the reports of 

the Paris expo ition, are very valuable and should be printed. The r ports of the Paris exposition are among the most valuable documents we have printed since I have been C<?nnected with that department of the public service and: I think they have paid bade to the 

Government many times the cost of our representation at the e~o- sition. I move that the Senate concur in the resolution. ' 

The motion was agreed to. 

CHANGE OF LOCATIO:N OF A BA.L'\TK. 

Tho PRE IDENT JYro tempore laid before the Senate the amendment of the Rouse of Representatives to the bill (S. No. 930) to au- thorize the Farmers' National Bank of Greensburgh, Pennsylvania, 

to change its location and name. 

The amendment was at the end of section 2 to add the following 

proviso:· . -

P.rovided, That a.ll expenses incident to the proposed change, including engraving, 

shall be borne and paid by said bank. 

Mr. SCOTT. I move that the Senate concur in that amendment. 

The motion wa-s agreed to. 

HOUSE BILLS REFERRED. 

The bill (H. R. No. 3774) for the relief of the widow and children 

of Genoral William Gates, United States Army, wa.s read twice by its 

title, and referred to the Committee on Claims. 

The bill (H. R. No. 3778) changing name and location of Pittsfield 

ational Bank, Pittsfield, New Hampshire, to Second National Bank 

of Manchester, Hillsborough County, in said State, was read twice 

by its title, and referred to the Committee on Finance. 

GE~~VA A W .ARD. 

The Senn.te rcsume<.1 the consideration of the report of the committee of conference on the bill (S. No.7) for the creation of a court for 

the adjudication and disposition of certain moneys received into the . Treasury under an award mado by the trilmnal of arbitration con- stitutetl b)' virtue of the first article of the treaty concluded at Washiugton the 8th of 1\fay, A. D. 1871, between the United States of 

America and the Queen of Great Britain. 

1\lr. THURMAN. Mr. President, the answer of the Senator from 

Vermont [1\fr. Emm:NDS] to the objection I have taken to this report 

because it strikes out the word~' that the claims shall be stated on a gold ba is, and paid in gold," is, I submit, no answer at aU. It cer- tainly is no answer to that to say that last winter when this bill was before this body no one had noticed the injustice that would result 

from the want of such a provision as "";hat. I confess that it did not occur to me; it did not occur to the Senator from Vermont; it was not mentioned in the debate, long and earne t as that debate was; no one thought of it, but the moment my colleague suggested it at 

this se ion and moved his amendment it struck everybody almost as beincr not only a proper amendment, but as being a necessity, in order 

to clojrustice between the different claimants. Hence it was carried 

and carried I think by a very large majority of this body, and it ought never to have been abandoned. It is no answer at all to say that the neces ity for that was not discovered beforehand. Why, sir, bills have 

sometimes pas ed this body-and we can recollect some notable instances too-in which the effect of the bill was directly the opposite 

to that which was intended by its promoter, and nobody ever yet 

thought that it was a subject of censure or a matter of logical argument to say, "You did not object at the time," when tlie truth was that the person spoken to did not discover the defect in the bill. 

Now, onethingisperfectly certain: if·you would do justice between 

theso different claimants you must have one uniform standartl by 

·--

which to mea-sure their losse . Nothing can be clear r than that. 

You must have a uniform standard. The Senator from Vermont says 

that the court may do_justice according to the equity of each case. The court cannot do justice according to the equity of eaeh ca e unle s it does in every case value the property by the same standard. It is a simple impossibility. You mi~ht as well say that it could do justice 

by having a different yard-stick or a different ton-weight ·for each 

measurement of each particular vessel that .was lost or destroyed. 

You must have one standard to which all claims are to be referred, or relatively between the different claimants some men will be paid too 

much and others will not get their share. Now, what standard can you have t In the very nature of things it is impossible that you can have any other standard than gold. -You cannot have greenbacks as the standard. They were fluctuating during the time these depredations took place from 5 to 10 per cent. a day, and ran down until ultimately gold was ~0 and greenbacks therefore were worth only thirtytwo or three cents on the dollar. That was the state at the time that some of these losses occurred. 

Now, says the Senator from Vermont, contracts were made payable 

in greenbacks, and the courts enforce them, and the judgments are paid in greenbacks now, years afterward. That i& not an analogous case to this. These vessels were lost on the high seas. They were lost far off. Theywere lostwheregreenbackswerenotthen used. It 

is not like the case of an injury or a contract .happening here upon: 

land, where payment of the damages is made every day. It is a ca e where the loss takes place at a distance, not a subject of a contract at 

all, but the subject of damages which have been paid to us. That being the case, what are we to do'f Are we not to do equity 

between these people relatively! Are we not to award to each one of 

them such an amount for his lo s as will do him no injustice and do no injustice to anybotly else'f Are we to adopt a standard which·will 

enable one man to get twice as much a-s another, when the property 

lost by each was of precisely the same value! That is what must 

inevitably result if you do not adopt some uniform standard; and, as I said before, there·can be no uniform standartl but that of gold. 

This matter was overlooked before. It. is not so much a question 

about mere payment in gold now, but it is for the other reason which 

I spoke of before; it is because you cannot do justice between these 

different claimants unless you measure their claims by the same yard-stick, unless you try their lo es by the same standard, and you 

cannot do that unless you value them in gold. 

Again, I do say, and the argument is perfectly irresistible and it 

has not been answered at all, that the Geneva tribunal must have 

computed these losses in gold, must have considered that it diu ~o. 

It never intended to compute them in a currency worth· but seventyfive or fifty cents ill ·the dollar at the time the losses occmred, and 

then make Great Britain pay for them in gold. It was guilty of no such absurdity as that. The treaty provided for payment in gold, 

and the award being in gold, it is utterly impo ible that tho e sensible and able men should ever have computed them in any other me- dium than gold. Then, as they allowed intere t, they must have gone on the hypothesis that these losses at the time they occnrre{l were represented by such an amount in gold. Upon no other hyp~the is can their award be explained. It would be perfectly absurd to say 

that they awarded in gold unle s they estimated the losses in gold. 

Then, the tribunal having gone upon that ground, it necessarily follows that we should go upon the same ground in the distribution of 

this money, that we should :find out by the unvarying standard what was the amount of each man's loss at the time that losa occurred. 

That is necessary in order to do justice between the different claimants. 

But, sir, in respect to the other view which I presented of this subject, the Senator from Vermont has not vouchsafed any answer at 

all. I put it once. more to the Senate, is it honest in us to recetve 

payment in gold and then put off these merr with a currency worth 

but eighty-five cents on the dollar 'f Is that honest f The Senator 

talks about these poor sailors antl the like. I have as much sympathy for them as he has; but I am not verymuch accustomed to make 

professions of sympathy. Is it honest to them, when the amount of 

their losses ha-s been paid for by Great Britain in gold, that we shall 

take fifteen cents out of every dollar of the amount to which they are entitled t For that is the result of this bill if you pass it. It will 

not do to say that the commission here may award the money in gold. 

They will not dare do it if Congress strikes out these words, for it 

will be said at once that, these words being stricken out by Congress, 

it is the deliberate judgment of Congress that these damages must no~ 

be paid in gold. 

1\lr. ED!\1UNDS. That is not a fair ar!!1llllent. 

1\Ir. THURMAN. Again, the Senator~om Vermont treats my objection to this section in regard to -insurance companies and the 

words "other claim " as if it was a mere hair-splitting, and he wa-s pleased almo t to insinuate that my mo~ives could not have been 

exa-ctly right in opposing the conference report. I am gla4 to see that he shakes his head; but one thing I will say--

1\Ir. ED~fUNDS. I shook my head on that point when the Senator 

was speaking; but I told him before that I knew the reverse was true, 

that the Senator could not have such a motive. 

Mr. THURMAN. I am very sorry to say, although I would ratbor 

it wa that, that the Senator has paid a very poor compliment to my: understandin~?;. (and I would rather he should underrate that than un-
5364 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 22, 

derrate my morality,) because he said that if I had been en~aged in 

parliamentary tactics to defeat an honest measure, I woUld have 

pursued precisely the same course that I have, or words to thn.t effect.. 

Well, Mr. Pr-esident, he says now that I have very honest motives, and 

yet I am pursuing exactly the course that a rlishonest man would to 

defeat a bill by parliamentary tactics. That is very much the same as saying that the Senator from Oh.io is little better than a fool. I 

cannot agree to either one or the other. I know that I am not a judge in. my own case; but really I will not give a cognovit to confess 

judgment that I am a fit subject for a lunatic asylum, and I certainly 

will not that I am a fit subject for the penitentiary. 

I do not know tha.t I wish to say anything more on this subject. I 

have no feeling in this ma.tter in the world and can have none other 

than tha,t what I believe to be the law of my land and the honor of 

my country shall be o be.yed and preserved. · 

Mr. WRIGHT. Mr. President, as a member of the committee of 

conference, having agreed to this report, I de ire the attention of the 

Senate for a very few minutes. 

Three objections are made t.o the report as I understand. After 

stating the first and second, the Senator from Ohlo concludes what 

he baa to say in the way of ....objections to the report by a third point 

that I will refer to fir t. The third point is that by the terms of this 

report the commission or court is to determine what compensation 

-shall be allowed counsel for prosecuting these claims; and so it turns 

out that after two years of effort to settle this question and pay to 

honest men, men who are entitled to it, this money, we are to defeat 

this report because of this third point. It was a question with the 

committee in the Senate as in the House, a question before the Senate . as before the House, whether it were better to leave all thee claim- : ants to the contracts and agreements that might be made between 

them and counsel with reference to the numberless cases that may 

be brought before this tribm:ial, or whether it were better that the 

power should be given to the commis ion to settle and determine 

the compensation to counsel in each case. In view of the numberless small cases of claims in favor of seamen and sma.U demands of 

different natures that might arise, it was finally determined that the 

better way was to leave this question to the court and let t.he court 

in ea~h individual case settle what should be the compensation. In 

tbis way fair justice will be done to claimants and unquestionable 

fair justice to counseL 

The second point mentioned is that we have omitted from this bill 

the provision inserted by the Senate that the judgment should have 

reference to the amount of the loss in gold coin at the time of the 

loss; and it is said that good faith on the part of the Government, 

that that honor which we should observe as a Government and we here as representatives of the Government, demands that having re- ceived gold we should pay gold. I submit that there is nothing in 

this bill which prevents the tribunal from taking everything of this 

kind into consideration and squaring its judgment accordingly. I 

submit that it would bemost anomalous if in providing for the erec- tion of a tribunal to determine with reference to any claims against 

the Government or between individuals or the payment. of any demand, we should provide that the judgment should be in gold. The 

judgment is that of the law. 'fhe tribunal when it has determined 

what shall be allowed takes into considemtion all the circumstanees 

at the time the loss occurred and squares its judgment accordingly 

and renders its award accordingly; and when it comes to render its 

award, will any person tell me what line there is in this report that 

prevents the tribunal from taking into consicleration what was the 

value of the loss of the person at ·the time it occurred t The langu.<tge 

is that the tribunal is to decide according to law on the merits of each case. I say it is a mo t unheard-of thing in legislation to provide by 

law that the judgment shall be paid in coin. 

"tou say that this is a strict trust; that we took the money as gold 

and should pay it out as gold. I say that I do not reco~nize it as a strict trust; but whether it be so or not, the money is tnere; were- ceived gold; the tribunal determines under all the circurnst..'\Uces what 

each mau shall receive considering what gold was at the time and 

considering what is right now and the interest that is to be allowed. 

But one point remains, and that is thn.t this report does not go far 

enough, 010 it is ambiguous in its terms. This is to me most extmordinary and amazing. This Government received this money; the 

award was made two years ago. At the last session of Congress both 

Houses passed a bill on this subject. It was refened ton. committee 

of conference and they were unable to a~ree, and thus it occurred that 

claimants who were entitled to from tnree to five or seven million 

dollars of this award were delayed in the receipt of what every par- on acknowledged ought to have been paid to them at that time. 

The matter passed over ; and now we are in the expiring hours of this session, after more than a year has expired from the time the former 

committee was unable to agree. Every member of both Houses of 

Congre s I understand a~ees that with reference to certain lo es there ought to be payment. We do not agree as to w~ether there 

ought to be payment beyond these. The Senator :O:om Ohio and every 

member of the Judiciary Committee agreed that with ·reference to 

certain losses there ought to be payment. Now when we had agreed as to certain losses which ought to be paid, one question was whether 

the door should be closed and no others paid. Another question was whether we should pay those we all agreed ouo-ht to be paid and as to all other claims leave the matter open to subsequent legislation. By the bill that passed the Senate it was provided that wbn.t 

remained after paying these claims which we all agreed should be 

paid should be covered into the Treasury. Now it is provided that 

the claims which we all agree t;hall be paid being provided for, then 

the fund shall be still left open for other claims. Now, we all agree 

that with reference to other claims there is no conclusion, there itJ 

nothing settled. Every member of the conference committee and 

every member of the Judiciary Committee agrees in this; and the 

question that is now submitted to the Senate is this: Every man knows that good faith demands that we should pay these men; every 

member of the Senate and House knows that honesty demands that we should pay the e men; everyJ>~rson knows that they have been 

delayed already too long in the payment of this debt; and now the 

Senate is to det.ermine at this time in the se ion whether we will 

provide for the payment o::t: honest .debts that we all agree upon 

aud leave the question open for subsequent legislation in reference 

to claims that can then be presented and be provided for by subs - quent legislation. I say it will be a disgrace to the American Congre , it is a disgra~e to the American name when we have agreed \vith 

reference to these honest men who ou~ht to be paid, when there is no question but that they ought to be pa1.d, if we adjourn this Congre 

and leave the question open because we cannot agree with reference 

to other claims and when there is nothing in the bill withnfercnce 

to such other claims. 

I therefore a-ppeal to the Senate, in view of ·the good !lame of the 

nation, in view of the length of time that has elapsed since we r e- ceived this money, in view of what is just aud fatr .to honest men who have been kept out of their claims, not to hesitate in the discharge of our duty because we cannot agree in regard to some other 

matters that are unimportant as compared to the rights of the men who come here and have been begging us to discharge the trust that 

honestly devolves upon us and I insist has been delayed too long. 

Now, if we adjourn, it is delayed :mother year, and again it will be a reproach to the nation as it has been since we had this money in our hands. 

Mr. MORTON. Mr. President, it occurs to me that so far as the 

question of the assessment of damages, whether in gold or greenback , as ma.de by the Senator from Ohio is concerned, it is not important. 

I do ·not think that there can be a fairer question to be left to be determined by this commission, after full aro-ument and consideration, 

than the question a to how these damages eilian be computed, whether 

in gold or in United States notes; and upon that point I see no difficulty. It is a question of law settled by general principles of law as to what shall be the principle upon which these damages shall be 

computed; and so far as that is concerned there is no objection to 

this report, in my judgment. 

But this report is to me unsatisfactory in some other particula1.·s. 

First, it is unsatisfactory because it settle but one question out of 

many,accordingtotheconstruction given to it by the Senator from New 

.Jersey, by the Senat.or from Vermont, ami by the Senator from Ohio. 

It leaves many questions, and the most difficult questions of all, 

open for future difficulty and wrangling; and according to the con- struction they all agree iB giving to thi~ report it is an invitation to 

open all these questions next winter. The bill provides that the in- surance companies shall not be paid except where their lo es exceetl 

their profits taking their whole bu iness into consideration during 

the war. i:l on the whole they have lost more than they have made, 

then they shall be paid for that loss over and above their profits. That is 

the express provision of the bill; and in the absence of the construction given it by the enators, I should have said that the phra e h ere 

" other claims" does not include the insurance companies because the 

claim of the insmance companies is adjudicated upon; it is men- tioned; it is defined; it is said what they shall have n.nd what they · shall not have. But there are claims that have been put forward, 

for instance war premiums aud others which have been mentioneu, 

which are uot excluded by the terms of the bill, are not adjudicated 

upon, and I should say in my simplicity reading thi report, it it had 

not been for the construction given it by the authors of it, that the 

words "other c]a,ims" do not include the insurance companies at all, 

and that thls bill would be regarded as a settlement of the questions so far as the in urance companies are concerned. But a the e Sen- ators all agree that this phrase "other claims " does include the claim 

of the insurance companies that is adjudicated upon in the bill nothing is settled, and we shall have these claims back here by expre s invitation under this report next winter. 

Mr. President, when we consider the limited character of the claims 

that are allowed under this bill we may fairly conclude that when all are paid that are authorized to be paid under this bill, not more than one-half of this fund will be exhausted. I ·doubt whether one- half of it will be exhausted. · 

Mr. THURMAN. Not near one-half. 

Mr. MORTON. There will at least be one-half left for future strugo-le 

and contest in Congress, to which the insurance companies are a.Yso ~vited, and I now make the prediction that the insurance companies 

will yet get that money. My friend from Ohio need not have any 

unea-siness. They concur in giving this report a con truction that the 

whole insurance question is left o~en. They a1.·e invited to come back 

and look after the balance of this fund. We know their strength; we know their pertinacity; and I now make the prediction here tonight-I may not live to see it realized-that the insurance companies 

• 
• 

1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5365 

will yet get the balance of the fund. I should very much have pre- . to be encouraged and to be protected by law. Such contracts ever ferred that this bill should have settled the whole question and that :have been protected by law; and if the Government of the Uniteu we should have been done with it; but it is so framed according to States, with the view of diverting or -perverting this fund from the 

the com.truction given t9 it by its authors that it settles nothing and plain course which an execution of their trust would lea-d them to we are to have it all over session after session until this fund has been make it follow, they do this at the cost of the law as set forth by 

exhausted. their own highest tribunals, and I fear they will do it at the cost of 

Mr. BAYARD. :J.I,fr. President, I do not desire to prolong this de- the respect of every respect:lble n::ttion of the world. I would not 

bate, but I cannot forbear to add my strong expressions of dissent to desire to see my Government stand in that attitude. It never shaH 

the report which has been submitted to the Senate. · stand so with my consent. The proposition is too.. pbin, too selfLast October the government of Great Britain paid $15,500,000 in evident; it needs no elaboration to prove th~Lt this is an attempt to 

gold, or its equivalent in bonds of the United States, into the Fed- escape from principles of law well ascertained and which are now eral Treasury. In the first place, let me remark, it was paid in gold denied for the first time in the history of our lerrislation. or its equivalent, paid in gold-bearing bonds of the United States But, Mr. President, look at one thing else. Here is a round sum of 

worth gold at par and by the a-ssent of the United States accepted $15,500,000 in gold. It lies here for disbursement to its true owners, as the equivalent of gold coin. There is a perfect simplicity in who are citizens of the United States. Whether they be the women the transa-ction that shall direct the payment of the money over to and the men and the children who may own stock in our insur::tnce 

those to whom it is justly due, precisely in the same coin ::tnd in the companies, or whether they be merchants who own vessels them- same description of money as we reeeived it. selves, or whet)ler they be rich or poor, holding much or little of 

I was amazed that the Senator from Vermont should talk of the these claims, it matters not. It was our pride and our boast that all 

fluctuations in gold between the time when these losses by the depre- stood equal before the law, and here now it is proposed to change 

dations of the southern cruisers occurred, and the present day. Sir, . that equality, and for some rea on, for which no just argument has 

gold has not fluctuated. It wa-s a standard then and is to-day ; and yet been offered, we are to deny these men rights never heretofore as we received this money in gold, as the value of the losses sus- denied. But here is a sum of $15,50D,OOO. The bill as originally intained was estimated in gold, if we pay in gold there will not be the troduced proposed that these claims should be passed upon, excluding 

slightest difficulty upon the subject. If this method of distribution the insurance companies who did not prove by bringing their books -had but the one merit of simplicity, it would have enough to com- into court that they ha-d lost more money than they had gained during 

mend it to the Senate; but when you add to that that when you de- the continuance of the ·war premiums. The bill provided further 

part from the gold basis and take the basis of paper, you subject that after these judgm~nts were ascertained by the commission apclaimants to gross injustice, because the men who suffered in 1863lost pointed for that ascertainment, the Secretary of the Treasury should a, very different amount as to paper money compare<;} with those. who retain in the ·Treasury 5 per cent. of the amount of all these judglost in 1862 or 1864. Therefore I say that if the principle npon which ! ments, and then, further, that after all these judgments had been ascer- 1 conceive this money was received by the Government of the United tained and the amount retained, the Secretary of the Treasury ~hould 

States aud under which alone honestly and honorably it can be dis- distribute in ratable proportions among the parties in whose favor 

horsed is to be considered and respected, we will pay these claim- the judgments were rendered such moneys as had been so received 

ants, our own citizens, precisely in the same money that we received into the Treasury, so that the distribution should be a ratable distrithe amount for them in. By doing so all calculation will be rend- bution. 

ered unnecessary and the simplicity will accord with the honor and See, now, the absurilit.y of the present bill. You propose to distribjustice of the transaction. · ute part of the award, which is variously estimated at from five to 

But, Mr. President, passing away from the question of how they · seven and a half or ten millions, and you propose to make a ratable 

shall be paid, whether in gold or in paper, let us consider what this disti·ibution under the law of all the judgments. Here you have a fund was. Was it money paid into the Treasury of the United States · report that proposes to pay out say $10,000,000, and to pay it in full. 

as due to the nation 7 Was it due to the people of the United States Now mark the sequel. You will have paid $10,000,000, part of these as a people 7 .All I can say is that if that proposition had been made cillims, in fulL Suppose herea:fter1 as jnstly it well may be, the claims 

Great Britain would have gone to war before she would have paid now rejected by you shall be considered and approved by e. future 

you one cent, and no man within the sound of my voice can doubt it. , Congress, and the fund of $15,000,000, reduced by your present bill to 

Your indirect claims, as they were termed, embraced the only cla.ims $5,000,000, shall be insufficient to pay that award, then what becomes 

of a national character; these claims were not of a national charac- of your rataUle proportion 'f You have paid -the present claims in 

ter, they were the claims of individual citizens for their individual full; you will not have the fund to pay the remainder in full. Will 

losses incurred by reason of the infraction of the neutrality laws of you undertake, in the face of moneys paid to you in trust for a legal 

Great B1·itain by certain persons under her jurisdiction. This is no and equitable and just distribution pro rata among these claimants, 

national claim. It-seems to me that when these propositions are . to throw the dimunition upon those whom you have now excludecl 

stated, and when they are a.dmitted, evemhing is ended in regard when you have paid others in full t Why, sir, it is not only r::tnk into a proper distribution of this fund. This money has no place in justice, but it is absurdity for a trustee so·to act. 

t.he national Treasury except as a resting place between it and the What is the rule in regard to distribution of any trust fund t Take 

hand of the American citizen who is to receive it. the ordinary case of an assignment in bankruptcy. Take the ca-se of 

Sir, if any portion of this money, which is now denied to those in- any oth~r trust fund to be distributed. You must know what are the surance companies in whose name it has been claimed, shall remain claims that are upon it. Let the Congress of the United States sit 

after the satisfaction of their claims, it is the property of Great Britain in equity as they should in this ca-se; all the parties must come before 

and not of the Unit ed States, and self-respect and propriety will com- you; their claims mrist all be known ; the distribution must be ac- pel us to carry out the treaty stipulation and pay it back. I do not cording to your law, ratably m3de; and how can you pretend to make 

propose to reiterate the legal argument now. It has been made more a ratable distribution when you start out by paying a portion of your 

ably than I can state it. It has not been answered or pretended to claims in full t Is this the way to deal. Would a man be suffered 

be answered by any gentleman to my hearing in the Sen at~ that the to deaJ in this way with a fund ithe were a private trustee t Certainly 

rights of the man who insured another are qillte equal in law to those not. There is not a court of equity in the land but would arrest such 

of the man who insured himself. The United St::ttes presented both a proceeding, aucl tell him that if he sought to distribute moneys in 

these classes of claims, and upon the basis of each the money was this way he must do it at his own risk. .All the parties must be 

-equally allowed. The contract of insurance is a legitimate contract; before the court; all the rights must be adjudicated-upon before you 

it is an honest contract; it is upheld by law; it is sustained by morals; can undertake to say what ea-ch shall be entitled to. 

it has every foundation in equity. Why, then, is it that in an act of Therefore I say this report is a "most lame and impotent conclu- . this kind, for the first time in the history of our adjudications, we sion" after the care that has been given to this bill. It does propose 

should propose to stamp the contract of insurance as unlawful, as un- to pay a part of these claims in full, and that very payment "rill dewarrantable, and compel men to submit to different tenns in recrard prive you of the power to pay other claims which may be hereafter 

to payment of their subrogated claims than we impose upon others adjudicated upon and the consideration of w4ich you entirely postwhose claims are made in their o~n right f It is a plain, simple fact pone for some reason or other unknown to me. But, Mr. President, 

that the American people can consider. let them be paid in full or not, if it be the purpose of the Senate 

These vessels were destroyed. By ::tn alteration and an amendment to change and pervert the character of the United States on which 

of the law Great Britain said that she would pay for them, and has they have received this money, if they choose to strain the public 

paid for them. In some of the cases they were insured, in other faith by calling this a public f-und, it may be done, but it will not be • cases they were not. You agreed to pay the owner in the one case done without my vote being recorded agairist it, as now my remarks 

and you refuse to pay the man who paid him for his losses under a are uttered by way of protest. 

contract of insurance in the other. This principle is entirely familiar It is perfectly clear to me that' not one cent of this money, and no in our courts; it is beyond contradiction or the possibility of contra- man who hears me can deny it, would ever have reached tho Trea,sdiction, that a man who insures another upon a lawful voyage and ury of the United States if you had told the government of Great 

then upon the occasion of loss has paid the other the amount of his Britain that she paid it to you as a nation and as a people for your 

insura1;1ce stands directly in his shoes with all the rights, legal and own use. Every Senator who boars me knows that every claim.of a 

equitable, which his insured had at the time of the loss. There is no national nature was discarded by the arbitration, as it was denied by 

gainsaying these propositions; but here for the first time the attempt the government of Great Britain. We consented to abide by that 

is made to stamp the contract of insurance as illegal, as impolitic, a-s arbitration;- and, Senators, is it honest, is it honomble, for you anq 

not to be favored by law. ].I,J:r. President, the contract is directly the for me in thisbodytochangethecharacterof that fund, to declare that reverse. The contract of insurance is legal, and is in every respect to be a fund paidforn::ttional purposes which was paid onlyforindivid-
• 

5366 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 22, 

ual purpo es, to reimburse an enumerated, nominated class ofpeoplef 

They are there; their names are all before you; there is no diffie~ty 

in discovering them; you will find them all there, and the question 

is whether you now shall undertake to treat any ·of this money as otherwise than the property of your individual citizens, in whose name you asked it, for who e sake the public law of nations was altered by Great Britain iu order to have it paid, and who never paid 

you one cent or one dollar as a national contribution to your national 

losses. · 

Mr. President, it cannot be. The amount of money is important to 

those who have lost H. I am anxious to see it reach their hands. I 

believe the claim of the insurer is just as honest in law and as sound 

in morals as the claim of the sailor, the merchant, or the owner of 

merchandise himself. · All this is so, and I do not think we can without 

injustice to· our own people exclude those who have saved others their 

money under the contract of insurance. But of one thing I am cer- tain, that the money either belongs to the men in whose name we claim it, or it belongs to the nation who paid it tons. We can have no profit as a nation in this business. That was denied. The national 

claims were excluded. The Government of.the United States signed 

tile stipulation of submission to the arbitration that did exclude them. 

And now if this country shall by indirection make a profit from that 

fimd, it will be at the cost of the honor of the Government of the 

United States, and that shall never be by my assistance, by my vote, 

and witllout my earnest protest, which I here make, against its being 

accomplished. 

Ir. FRELINGHUYSEN. I rise to say a few words, and I will not 

detain the Senate from a vote for three minutes. 

The complaint against this report is, originating with the Senator 

from Ohio and those who have believed that the insurers ought to be 

paid, that we have not made provision for paying the insurance com- panies, those who met with no loss. I have simply to say that the 

conference committee had no more power to provide for the payment 

of the insurance companies than they had to provide for the pay- ment of the debt of Great Britain. This Honse had voted that they were not to be paid. The House of R~resentatives had voted that 

they were not to be paid. What pos ible power had a commit.tee of 

conference of the two Houses to send you a report that they should 

be paid T It is the veriest absurdity in argument that I ever heard 

presented. We have done all we could do to protecttherightsof the 

insurance companies for the future, if they have any. We have gone 

further than the bill passed by the Senate went, in providing that 

this fund shall remain subject to all claims that Congress may hereafter make against it; and it ill becomes the advocates of the insur- ance claims to complain against this report. 

The Senator from Delaware say& that we pay the claims here included in full and then provide for a pro mta. Diu not the Senate of 

the United States agree to pay these in full f Have we made provision by this report for the payment of any others than the Senate 

voted should be paid and the House also' .A.nd if it is a "lame and 

impotent" report, to use the comteous language of the Senator from 

Delaware, that limping and that impotence was in the Senate of the 

United States, and not in the committee. We have paid those that 

the Senate said should be paid, and no others. . Then there is a complaint made about gold payment, that the Government of the United States is going to play .some shah by trick. It 

makes no kind of difference whether the payment is made in gold or whether it is made in currency. 'rhe Government of the United 

States will pay all that is in the Tteasury of this fund, whether it 

pay it in gold or in cmrency. .A.nd as to the idea that injustice will 

be done, ineqnaJity, as the Senator from Ohio says, paying one set of 

creditors in gold and another in currency,· I say there is not a surro- gate in Ohio, there is not an administrator in that vast State who 

would administer an estate paying according to a different rule ; and 

I take it that the five judges that this bill provides for have sufficient 

intelligence, when they are directed to distribute this fund according 

to the-principles of law and the merits of the case, to exercise the 

ordinary intelligence of administrators in the country. 

One class of Senators object to this report because we exclude the 

insurance companies; that is the point of the Senator from Ohio and 

the Senator from Delaware; but the Senator from Indiana objects to 

the report because we do not exclude them. What we have done is 

to say that these honest men who every Senator and every member 

of the House agrees ought to be paid shall be paid, and that the 

fund shall be consecrated and sacred to such claims as Congress shall 

hereafter authorize against it, and I oannot see how any one can give a vote against that report without, according to my view, violating the ·1)rinciples of ordinary honesty. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER, (Mr. CLA Y':fON in the chair.) The 

question is will the Senate agree to the report of the committee of 

conference. 

Mr. :3.A.Y.A.RD and Mr. THURMAN called for the yeas and na.ys. 

The yeas andnays were ordered . Mr. THURMAN. The Senator from Vermont [.1\!r. EDMUNDS] and 

myself are paired. If present he would vote " yea" and I should 

vote "nay." 

The que tion being taken by·yeas and nays, resulted-yeas 38, nays 17; as follows. _ 

YEAS-Messrs. Allison, .Anthony, Boreman, Boutwell, Buckingham, Carpenter 

Chandler, Clayton, Qo~Qver, 1)'erry of Michigan, Flanagan, Frelinghuysen, Hamil. 

, 

ton of Texas, Hamlin, Harvey, Hitchcock, Howe, fugalls, .Tones, Kelly, Lo~an, Mitchell, Morrill of Maine, Morton, Patte~on, Pease, Pratt, Ramsey, Robertson, Sar~ent, Scott, Sprague, Stewart, Wadleigh, Washburn, West, Vvindom, and 

Wnght-38. 

NAYS-Messrs. Bayard, Bogy, Cooper, Davis, Dennis, Fenton, Goldthwaite, Gor· 

don, Hager, Merrimon, Norwood, Ransom, Saulsbury, Schurz, Stevenson, Stockton, and Tipt.on-17. 

ABSENT-Messrs . .Alcorn, Brownlow, Cameron, Conkling, Cragin, Dorsey, Edmunds, Ferry of Connecticut, Gilbert, Hamilton of Maryland, .Johnston, Lcwi:;,· McCreery, Morrill of Vermont, Oglesby, Sherman, Spencer, and Thurman-IS. 

So the ·report waa concurred in. 

MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE. 

· .A. message from the House of Representatives, by 1\Ir. McPHER o:-. 

its Clerk, announced that the House ha.O. passed the bill (S. No. 436) 

for the reJief of Lieutenant John Shelton. 

ENROLLED BILLS SIG~ED. 

The message also announced that the Spe2.ker of the House hall 

signed the following enrolled bills; and they were the1:eupon signcu 

by the President pro tempo·re: 

.A. bill (H. R. No. 2884) granting the right of way through the public lands to the Arkansas Valley Railway Company; 

.A. bill (H. R. No. 2897) authorizing the President to appoint George 

Henry Preble, now a captain on the active list of the Navy, to be 

commodore; 

.A. bill (H. R. No. 3506) for the relief of William Tod Helmuth, of 

New York; and 

.A. bill (H. R. No. 3773) to further define and enlarge the powers and 

duties of the board of health of the District of Columbia. 

TAX AND TARIFF BILL. 

1\Ir. SHERMAN. The commit~e of conference on the disagreeing 

votes of the two Houses on the amendments to the tariff bill have 

agreed to a report, which I send to the Chair. 

The report was read, a.s follows : · · 

The committee of conference on the disagreeing votes of the two Houses on tlte 

amendments to the bill (H. R. No. 3572) "to amenil existing customs and internal- revenue laws, and for other purposes," having met, after full and free conference 

ha.ve ~"Teed to recommend to their respective Houses as follows: 

Tha.t the House recede from its disagreement to the amendments of the Son ate numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 2"2, 23, 24, 25, 2G, 27

T~~fih~ s:r7a::e~:~e~~~~~ ~:!~:i:tumbered 31. 

That the House recede from its disagreement to the fifth amendment of the Scn- ~tte, and agree to the same with an amendment as follows: Insert in lieu of the 

words proposed to be stricken out the words: "Provi4ed also, Tha.t there shall be au allowance of 5 per cent., and no more, on all effervescing wines, liquors, cordia.ls, 

and distilled spirits in bottles, to be deducted from the invoice quantity in lieu of 

breaka.ga;" and the Senate agree to the same. - · That the House recede from its disagreement to the thirty-third amendment of 

the Senate, and a!!Tee to the same with an amendment as follows: In lieu of "23 " (the num eer of t'te section,) proposed to be inserted, insert "24; " and .the Sena.te agree to the same. That the House recede from its disa!ITeement to the thirty-fourth amendment of 

the Senate, and n.greee to the same with an amendment as follows: In lieu of "24," 

(the number of the section,) proposed to be inserted, insert "25; " and the Senate 

agree to the same. That t.he House recede from its disagreement to the thirty-fifth amendment of 

the Senate, and a.,<YTee to the same with an a.nLendm.ent as follows : In lieu of "25 " (the number of the section,) proposed to be inserted, insert "26;" and the SenaLo 

agree to the same. They further recommend that in section 7, page 5, line 21, after the word "returned," the word "empty" be inserted. 

The report was concurred in. 

JOHN SHERMA...'V, 

JUSTIN S. MORRILL, 

T. F. BAYARD, 

Managers on the pat·t of the Srmate. 

H. L. DAWES, 

WM. D. KELLEY, 

Manag!n's on tlw part of the HottSe. 

MESSAGE FROl\1 THE HOUSE. 

.A. message from the House of Representatives, by 1\Ir. CLINTO.N 

LLOYD, its Chief Clerk, announced that the House had passed a reso- lution to extend the present session to 4 o'clock p. m. of Tnesd..<ty, the 

23d day of June. 

FINAL ADJOURNMENT. 

Mr. SHERMAN. I hope that resolution will be laitl before the 

Senate at once. 

The President p1·o tempore laid before the Senate the following 

concurrent resolution of the House of Representatives: · 

Resolved, (the Senate co~rring,) That the present session of the Forty-Tbird Congress be extended until4 o'clock p.m. of Tuesday, tho 23d day of .Tune instant at which hour the President of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Repro:· sentatives shall be authorized to close the same by adjourning their respect..; n1 Houses without day. 

1\Ir. SHERMAN. I move that the r~solution be concurred in. 

The motion was agreed to. 

HOUR OF MEETL."iG. 

Mr. HAMLIN. By consent of the Senate, I hope I may be allowed 

to make a motion that when the Senate adjourns to-day it alljourn to 

meet at ten o'clock to-morrow morning. 

The motion was agreed to. · 

RIVER ll~ HARBOR BILL. 

Mr. CH.A.l\"'DLER submitted the following report, which was read: 

The committee of conference on the disa!!Teeina votes of the two Houses on the 

amendments of the Senate to the bill (H. R. No. 3168) making appropriations for the 
. 1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5367 

repair preservation, and completion of certain public works on rivers and harbors, 

!lnd f~r other purposes, bavin& met, after full and free conference have agreed to r ecommend and do recommeno, to their respective Houses as follows: 

That the Senate recede from its amendments numbered 3, 24, 29, and 45. That the House recede from its disagreement to the amendments of the Senate numbered 1, 2, 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 22, 23, 25, 26, 27, 28, 31, 33, 34, 35 3() 37, 3!1, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 46, 47, 48, and 49; and agree to the same. That the Senate recede from its amendment numbered 4, and substitute the following words: "For the improvement of the harbor at Erie, Pennsylvania, $20,000 ;" 

and the House agree to the same. That the Hou e recede from its disagreement to the amen«lment of the Senate 

numbered 8, and arrree to the same with an amendment as follows: Strike out the 

word "two hundr6d" and insert the words " one hundred and fifty" in lieu thereof; 

and the Senate agree to the same. . That the House recede from its disagreement to the amendment of the Senate 

numbered 20, and agree to the same with an amendment as follows: Strike out the 

words "seventy-five" and insert the word " fifty" in lieu thereof; and the Senate 

agree to the same. That the House recede from its disagreement to the amendment numbered 21, and a !!rOe to the same with an amendment as follows: Strike out the words "two hun- d~ d " and insert ' ' one hundred and fifty" in lieu thereof; and the Senate agree to tho same. That the House :recede from its disagreement to the amendment numbered 30, and aarco to the same with an amendment as follows: Strike out the words "according t8 the pl.:ms reported by the Government engineers;" and the Senate agree to the same. That the House recede from its disagreement to the amendment numbered 32, and 

agree to the same with an amendment as follows: .After the words "two hun(lred 

thousand dollars " insert "or so much thereof as may be necessary;" and the Sen- ate agree to the same. That the House recede from its disagreement to tho amendment numbered 38, 

and agree to the same with an amendment as follows: .After the word " and " insert • " 10,000 is hereby a.ppropriated for the improvement of;" and the Sen..'1te agree to · the same. That the Honse recede from its di agreement to the amendment numbered 50 and 

agree to the same with an amendment, as follows: strike out the word" three" and 

insert "one" in lieu thereof; also strike out the word "fifty " and insert the woru "twenty-five" in lieu thereof; and the Senate agree to the same. Z. CHANDLER, 

WM. A. :BUCKINGHAM, 

GEO. R. DENNIS, 

Managers on the part of the Senate. 

PHILETUS S.A. WYER, 

RICHARD C. PARSONS, 

ERASTUS WELLS, 

1 Managers on the pa1·t of the Houae. 

Mr. D.A. VIS. I should like to ask the Senator from Michigan who 

has charge of this bill a question. What change, if any, is made in 

the surveys ordered by the bill f 

1\Ir. CHANDLER. Not any. 

1\Ir. D.A. VIS. It appears to me from the reading of the report that 

there is some change made in the surYeys mentioned in the report of 

the Transportation Comiill ttee. . · Mr. CHANDLER. No, sir. There was a change ma.de ill regard to a survey at a bar in Texas, which did not require a survey. Ten thousand 

dollars is appropria.ted to continue the improvement of Red Fish Bar 

instead of putting it in for a survey. The commission for the survey 

of the mouth of the Mississippi Riv~r is changed to three .Army engineers, one officer of the Coa t Survey, and one from civil life . . Mr. D.A. VIS. Do I understand from the Senator that no survey that was ordered in the original bilLa~ pa. sed by the Senate is disturbed' 

Mr. CHANDLER. Not one. 1\fr. WEST. The Senator from Michigan has replied to the question of the Senator from West ·Virginia to the effect that the only 

change that has been made in the surveys recommended by the Senate 

Committee on Transportation was a change of the organization. of 

the board as recommended by that committee. Stated as it was-- 1\Ir. CHANDLER. Will the Senator pardon me while I correct an error I made f The board is two Army engineers, two from the Coast 

Survey, and one a civilian. 

Mr. WEST. Stated as it was, this looked like a very unimportant 

change, a change of the word" three" to "one;" a.nd yet the result 

is to change entirely the conclusion a.t which the Senate Committee on Transportation unanimously a.rrived a.:fter devoting the whole 

session to the consideration of the subject intrusted to them, and more pa.rticularly the conclusion they came to a~ to what was advisable to do in connection with the proposed improvement a.t the mouth 

of the :Mississippi River. It looks like a very trivial matter; but the con eqnence of it is tha.t the labors of a committee of this body, com- posed of nine of your members, reporting m1animously on one subject 

have been neutralized in a moment by three members of a. committee 

who have never paid any attention to the subject whatever. That 

is the result, and that is a result that! think the Committee on Transportation and I hope the S~na.te will not submit to. 

We have had the perplexity of the obstruction of the mouth of th~ 

Mississippi River before Congre s for years. We have had the Engi- neer Department of the Army scmtching at it for thirty-five years, 

and we have had but eighteen feet of water at the utmost there for 

the la t twelve months, and every attempt tha.t has ever been made 

to induce the Corps of Engineers of the Army to listen to the recom- mendations made by the able t civil engineers in the country has been 

resisted with an obduracy that is beyond belief. I state it here from 

my own knowledge that the Chief of Engineers has refused to allow 

any civil engineer to approach him who differed with him in opinion. 

I know it. I have made the attempt myself to get the Chief of Engi- neers to cons1.1lt with engineers of eqnal ability in civil life. 

The consequence is that if you adopt the report of this conference 

committee you confine ag::tin. .the consideration of this subject that 

has vexed and agitated the whole community of the West for years 

to the same sources of infor~ation, to the same prejudices that have 

hitherto prevented the removal of these obstructions. I will only say 

that much. Other Senators who will follow me will call your attention to the desirability of invoking the aid of civilians throughout 

the country that omething may be dono to relieve the mouth of the 

Mississippi River from these obstructions. Pass this bill as it stands 

now; agree to this report; and again you will have an ineffective 

and imperfect report come before you here, similar to the last that 

has excited nothing but the ridicule of the Committee on Transportation. Take the report of the board of engineers on the question of 

opening the mouth of the Mississippi River, full of inconsistenci , full of improbabilities, contradictory in every respect, and we are caHed upon once more to go back to that board and submit to what. 

Submit to the locking up of your grain in the vast productive regions of 

theW est just because this board is not willing to yield a moment to be 

enlightened by others quite equal to them. Wbat has the Uommittce on Transportation done It patiently and deliberately considered 

this subject the whole muter, ilisagreed with the Hou e in the recom- mendation to pass the canal bill, consulted as to the best character of a board that could be organized, recommended it here to you unanimously as t.heir conclusion; and a committee of conference who have 

paid no attention to the matter at all- speaking with all due defer- ence to them in their ability to scrutinize this matter in the brief 

period that was allotted to them-come in here and wipe this board 

away and tell us we must go ba-ck ~•gain to the obstructionists who are a greater obstruction to the mouth of the Mississippi than all tho 

niud and the bars there. 

Sir_, I hope the Senate will see the propriety of allowing this board 

to stand a~ the Committee on Tran portation unanimously recom- mended it. I ask how should it stand 1 What was the recommenda.-

tion of the committee Y Two engineers of the .Army and -two mem- bers of the Coast Survey, bringing into the organization of that 

board a new element, an element concerned in the maritime approaches of an outlet to the Mississippi River, the consideration of 

which haa never been attempted by any board of engineers. They 

have onlythou~htwhetheritwas pra-cticable to open the mouth of thA 

Mississippi that way, and they never asked whether it was practicable to get to the mouth of the Jltfissi ippi after you did open it. Two 

members of the Coast Surveywere provided for, that with their experience of maritime movements they might understand how vessels 

could approach the mouth if it was open, and then three civilian 

engineers to be appointed by the President, so that we might call 

into requisition whatever engineering ability the country possessed 

outside of the Army. 

I ask Senators are they willing to say that there is nobody in this 

country to judge of how obstructions ought to be removed from the 

mouth o.f the :Mississippi River except the engineers of the Army 'f 

.And if they come to that conclusion, it is inevitable we shall have 

thirty-five years more of scratching and obstruction. I cannot con- ceive it possible that this Senate will, on the recommendation of a committee of conference who have given two hours' consideration to 

this subject, set at naught the whole labors of the Corn.ri::titteeon Transportation with reference to that particular subject. I do not think it 

ought to be done. Perhaps the gentlemen of the committee can give us some good reason why it should be done, but I do not think we 

pught to o~t~ac~ze whatever a.bility tl?-e coll?tiJ:" may po~ess in the 

walks of mvil •life and confine those mvest1gat10ns entirely to ·the 

Army. I do not believe in it, because my experience is that the en- gineers of the Army have failed every time they have essayed to keep 

the month of that river open; and are we to be committed once more to their mercy, year after year' 

:Mr. BUCKINGH.Al\I. If this question had been subiilltted to the 

Committee on Transportation you would undoubtedly have had a. very different report, but it was not submitted to them. It is a question which was submitted to the members of this committee of con- ference and they have had it under consideration and given it such 

consideration as their time would permit. The committee of confer- ence have not been willing to underrate the value of the engineers 

of the Army; and they have a high estimate· of the ability of men engaged in the Coast Survey, and fully appreciate the importance of 

having both classes of engineers engaged in this s.nrvey. But I may 

say that the question in the committee wa whether we should in- . crease this commission from the Army, whether we should inCrease 

that part of the commis ion which is so objectionable to the Committee on Transportation, or whether we should make the report which 

the committee has submitted. It was a. question of compromise with 

the committee as it now stands, and it seems to me it is a compromise 

which does not discredit the Army engineers or the engineers con- nected with the Coast Survey; nor does it set aside, as the Committee on Transportation would intimate, the talent of civil engineers. 

There is another thing connected with it also. Itwn.s the judgment 

of the committee of conference that five members of this commis ion were abundantly able to make snch investigations and surveys as were necessary between now and December next. It did not appear 

to be important to the committee of conference to whom this question 

was referred ·that we should have a larger number. The e are the reasons why we have struck two from the number proposed of the 

civil engineers and left the two standing from the .Army and two 

from the Coast Survey. 

Mr. SCHURZ. Mr. President, I desire to address to the Senate a 
5368 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 22!1 

lew remarks on this question. At the iast session of the Senate we 'appointed a committee to institute inquiries on a subject which of 

late has occupied the attention of the country in a~ ·unusual degreethe subject of cheap transportation. That committee after many 

months of assiduous and faithful labor submittecl to us an elaborate, 

able, and very instructive report. One of the. principal recommendations made in that report, indeed the recommendation urged above 'all things, was that the water-route be improved which runs through 

the very heart of the Republic and is easily acce ible to far more than one-half of the surplus gr·ain raised in this country; that is to 

say, that the course of the Mississippi be made practicable and safe 

for navigation, and that its mouth be deepened so as to admit larae 

vessels. The openin~ of the mouth of the Missis ippi has been a su'tject of interest to this country for more than a generation. Thirty- seven years ago the Engineer Department of the Army took t..he matter 

in hand, and for thirty-seven years they have been planning and reporting upon the matter, and scratching and scraping at the mouth of the 

MissiMippi, and to-day the depth of water is no greater than it wa~ 

then. In other words, they have effected nothin~. 

Mr. President, I do not hesitate to pronounce 1t one of the great 

scandals of American history that a water-route the equal of which can scarcely be found in any country of the earth should have been 

permitted to remain virtually closed to the great commerce of the 

world for the three-quart.ers of a century that t.bat river bas been 

under the exclusive control of this Republic. I think I am not speaking too strongly; I am indulging in no extravagant language when 

I say that such a fact is simply scandalous, and we ought not to indulge in any delusion about it. It is absolutely inexcusable. The 

population of the Mississippi Valley have long and quietly submitted 

to such a state of things. In the mean time they ~ave grown in 

numbers; grown enormously in pro perity and productive power. 

The time is not far when the center of population will be in the Mississippi Valley, as it is already the center of agricultural production; 

and the people of that valley naturally look to the great river as the 

highway of their commerce, as the great outlet for their productive 

labor. Their desire is as natural as it is urgent that the mouth of 

that river should be made navigable for large vessels so as to be ac- cessible to the great commerce of the world. Now they know, it is 

their sad experience, that all the efforts which so far have been made 

have been almost entirely unavailing. They have waited long and 

most patiently that the engineers of the Army would discover and 

show t.hemselves able to carry out a plan which would make the 

great river what it ought to be, but they have waited in vain. At 

la-st, after mature consideration, such as our committee has devoted 

to this great subject, it is proposed to furnish new light to penetrate our councils. Having for thii-ty-seven years permitted the engineers 

of the Army to control this matter-with what success I have already indicated-they in ist that the genius and skill of the civil 

engineers of America shall have an opportunity to compete with the 

Army in the solution of this great problem. 

I desire Senators to remember the fact that this is probably the 

only civilized country on the face of the globe where such.enterprises are left exclusively to military engineering. Even in those 

European monarchies which are so military in their character, governments would not think a moment of excluding the civil engineer 

from public works which are not absolutely of a military nature. On 

the contrary almost all-ay, I might say all-of such work ·is done · by the civil engineer exclusively. Why should this Republic, then, 

rely upon the military alone 'f I invite you t.o look at the corps of 

civil engineers in this country. Have they achieved less than the civil 

engineers of the Army t Surely I do not want to disparage the latter; bU:t who has tunneled our mountains; who bas nm our railroad 

tracks many thousands of feet above the level of the seat Who has 

sunk the foundations of the great bridge at Saint Louis, one of the 

boldest and most magnificent structures in tho world, ninety feet 

below the bottom of the river f It is the civil engineer who ha-s done 

it. These are his triumphs, and such triumphs ru·e among the most 

resplendent glories of the Republic. 

And now, when we have so splendid a corps of men in this COlmtry, 

l.msurpa,c;sed anywhere, are we to say that their inventive geniu , their skill shall be excluded from the solution of one of the most important problems in that line that we have in our day before· us Y 

Are "W"b sensible men 'I Have we entan~led ours.elves more inextricably in official red-tape than even the military monarchies of Europe Y 

If it were so, should we not hide our heads in shame Y And now, what 

is the question in issue t We come before the Congress of the United 

States with a proposition which certainly cannot be called unreason- able. we ask for a commission of engineers to examine the different 

methods of opening the inouth of the :Mississippi which have been 

proposed; we a k that the military engineers who have occupied 

themselves so many years with this problem shall have two men on 

that commission to represent their views. We ask that another body, 

of Government officers of recognized skill, members of the Coast Survey, shall have two members ; but then we insist that the civil engi- neers of America more numerous and perhaps more experienced than 

either, men who have planne.i and achieved sreater enterprises than 

either, shall have an opportunity to offer the1r genius and skill to the 

country, and have a representation worthy of them on this commis- sion. Is that an unfair demand Y :Must we of the Uis issippi Valley 

when we come before you and ask in this bill for nothing but thi , be 

told that there shall be nothing for us inrespecttothis great interest, 

but those old methods of which the·experience of a generation has 

shown us that they are unavailing and fruitless f Are we to be told 

that all new light shall be excluded from our councils f Must our hopes in that direction be postponed once more f Are they to be 

postponed indefinitely t Why this f Is it, then, such an enormit,y we demanu- three eminent men from the corps of civil engine rs on this commission against four Government officers f Is there anything 

else we want to accomplish than what is absolutely necessary for the 

great agricultural and commercin,l interests of the country f Since 

the. military engineers for thirty-seven years have shown us how not 

to do it, have we of the Mississippi Valley not a clear right to demand 

that at last the advice of profe sional men be taken who may be ex- pected to show us how to do it f And that is what we do demand, a o41lmmission with three civil engineers upon it, to be selected by the 

President from the foremost ranks of the profession. And even that 

the conference committee attempt to deny us. The Senator from Connecticut tells us that such a commission would 

be cumbersome. I wish it were larger than it is here proposed, for we desire to have the opinions of a.s many able men as possible. 'Ve do 

not expect them to agree all upon one plan; but we do expect them 

each one to give us the best he can give upon this subject according 

to the measure of his experience and ability. We want to hear all 

sides, and for that very reason we want to have all sides represented. 

by the ablest exponents. · Nowt what do the conference committee proposef To add not three, as we desire, but only one civil engineer to a commis ion of four Government offic~rs. Thus the element which is most important to us is to be reduced to the smallest possible mea ure of representation 

and influence. One civil engineer, one stray sheep, lost and lonesome, against four Government officers. Why this Y Why thus discourage the civil en~eerina element on so important a commission f 

Is there any reason for it Y Is this perhaps another method bow not 

to do it, how to prevent that which by all means ought to be done t 

Must we by all means have more such unavailable majority reports as we have had so far, and is this a well-eonsidered plan to in ure such a result Y I tell you frankly that we want to have the civil en- ~ineeringe1ement in such strength on that commission that it can make 

1ts influence felt; and if we are to be denied that, we do not care to 

have any commission at all. Then we may, instead of~ new report 

just as well read over once more the stale productions of the bom·d 

of engineers to which we have been accustomed and of which we a.re tired, for we want something done and . accomplished. 

We of the Mississippi Valley, and I repre ent a constituency that 

is as much interested in the success of this enterprise as that of any 

Senator on this floor- we of the Mississippi Valley demand energetic 

action at last, and to secure it we a k for a commis ion such as I have 

described; we demand that the Congress of the United States sh.a.U 

employ the best engineers that the country pos e es, to open those 

channels of commerce which a b·ountiful nature has designed, and 

which are necessary for our prosperity. We are tired of dilly-dallying. We want serious work. Upon this we insist, and I think the people 

of the Mississippi Valley have a right thus to insist. To that end I ask thn,t this conference report be not agreed to, and 

that a new conference be ordered. 

!l1r. BUCKINGHAM. I judge from what the honorable Senator 

from Mi souri says that it "'a the design of the Committee on Trans- portation to have the skill of civil engineers, and they a.re very much 

disposed that the majority of this commis ion, or at least a large 

number of them, are not to be civil engineers if this report be adopted. 

I understand them to take the ground that the e surveys have been 

under the control of the engineers of the War Department for some thirty-seven years, and yet under the operation of the skill and the 

intelligence and the scientific ability of these men the water is no deeper now than it was then, and therefore they would discard the 

engineers connected with the Wa.r Department and have only civil 

engineers ; and yet I understand also tilltt they do pre ent this idea, 

that there shall still be a share of men on this commission who are of that class. who have failed to accompli h anything heretofore. 

Now, Mr. Pre ident, I have some faith in the Engineer Corps of the 

Army of the United States. The report 'leaves two of those engineers 

upon this commission; it al o brings in a new element from the Coast 

urvey and also from civil life, and that new element is the majority 

of the commission. And how will the members of this Transportation Committee, and who would discard all those who belong to the 

Engineer Department, and how can they, ask anything better than 

that there shall be outside of the Army a majority who can control 

them in their conclusions~ 

Mr. SCHURZ. The Senator from Connecticut is speaking persistently of a desir~ on our part to discard the Army officers. Nobouy 

expects to discard them- nobody proposes it. The only thing that 

we want is to open the door widely to that engineering skill and genius 

which exist ·in this country outsiue of the Army. I have high re- spect for the Army officers, but I do not believe that all the engineer- ing ability in America is buttoned up in blue and brass. I believe, nay 

I know, that the civil engineering skill in this country as well as in 

every other, has accomplished vastly more than that of the Army. I 

have pointed out some of their achievements. In every country on the face of the globe you will find this experience corroborated. Look at the Suez Canal which has so enormously shortenec1 the way 

• 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD·. 5369 

to India; look at the Mount Cenis tunnel, at the mountain railroads 

in Switzerland in .Austria, in India. 

nut why mriltiply instances t They are as notorious as the air the 

world over. And where such works were undertaken, not by private 

corporations, but by governments, they have always been put into 

the hands of civil engineers, while the military engineers had the 

control of military work . This is the natural order of things. Why 

should the most civil, the lea~t military government in ·the world so violently depart from it f Now I do not desire to question the ability 

of our military engineers in their peculiar branch. As military engi- neers they may be among the best in the world. I merely state a thing which as a historical fact cannot be denied, that for thirty-seven yeaas they have been planning and working at the mouth of the Mississil>pi River, and have achieved nothing. Every one who is acquainted 

w1th our history knows this to be true. And finally they have submitted as their only plan and the sum of their wisdom a proposition 

which ha~ been condemned by a unanimous vote of our Committee on 

Transportation. 

The people of the Mississippi Valley have this thing at heart sincerely and earnestly. 

I can understand how this subject may be more or less indifferent 

to the Senators from Connecticut and from Maryland, although they are surely men of patriotic impulses; but the matter does not come home- to them as it comes home to us. The people who live in the 

Mis issippi Va.lleysee in the Mississippi the greathighwaywhichconnects them with the sea and the commerce of the world. On that 

river they want to ship their crops. By the ·competition offered by 

that river they expect to esca.pe from the extortions practiced upon 

them · by grasping transportation monopolies. The opening of the 

mouth of that :river is therefore to them a matter of tremendous interet, and as such I urge it. 

As the advocate of that tremendous interest I make a demand which 

every fair-minded man will admit to be a very modest one, and therefore I ur(J'e it strongly ; not that the engineers of the Army should be 

discarded, but that an influential proportion should be yielded to the 

civil engineering skill of this country on the commission proposed to 

prepare at last the way for intelligent and energetic a-ction in the 

accomplishment of an object which is most necessary to us. Is that 

asking too much 'f Must that policy of obstruction which hitherto 

has so often prevailed be necessarily a.(lhered toY 

I repeat, it is one of the great scandals of our history that the 

Mississippi, which, so to speak, is the Atlantic Ocean running thousands and thousands of miles int.9 the interiort presenting water 

fa-cilities scarcely equaled in any country, shoUld ·have been permitted more than half a century of our control to remain in the half 

useless condition in which it is to-day. What we want is that it 

should be opened for large vessels as speedily and as completely as possible-not, if such a thing can be avoided, by a canal, closing the 

great harbor of the Mississippi Valley with a lock, where vessels 

must be lifted up or let down when they pass out and in, but an open 

mouth, where ships can pass out and in freely without hinderance 

and detention. We want to know whether-the engineering skill of 

this country is able to give us that open river mouth; and in order 

to ascertain this we want upon this commission the civil engineering 

element fairly and influentially represented. Is this asking too much f 

Surely, considering the greatness of the object, considering the mighty 

population interested -in this great end, it is a most modest demand, 

and I stand amazed that a proposition so moderate should find any 

opposition in this body. 

Mr. BOGY. Mr. President, this subject to us in the West is of the 

very greatest importance. For nearly forty years has this Government been makin(J' appropriations for the opening of the mouth of 

the Mississippi. Appropriations have been made annually and have 

always been on a large scale. For forty years have these appropriations been placed under the control of the Army of the United States 

without any direction whatsoever M to the mode and manner of ex- pending that money; and np to this time nothing has been accom- plished toward opening the mouth of the Mississippi River. Indeed 

the navigation of the mouth of the Missi ippi River to-day, after 

forty years of continued large expenditure, is not as practicable as it was forty ,years ago. There is truly le!'!S water upon the bars of the 

various channels of the Mississippi River now than was there thirty or forty years ago. 

We of the West for many years have atta-ched the greatest importance to this question. During the war the soldiers who fought under 

the ftag from the West were rallied under that ftag by the appeal that 

under no circumstances would the western country permit the m~uth 

of the Mississippi River to be controlled by a nation different from 

the nation which occupied the upper portion of the Mississippi River. 

It was the great question during the war that there should be one continuous ownership of that vast river from its head to its mouth. 

We had flattered ourselves that the time had come when the great 

object which we had been aiming to accomplish for thirty or forty 

years was about being carried out; that is, that the Government of 

the United States should in an intelligent manner take such steps and 

provide such means as would make the effort at least in a scientific 

way to open the mouth of the Mississippi River. 

Without at this late hour of the session pretending to. detain this 

body, I would say that two projects presented themselves, one a project to open one of the maill. ou.tlete on the river, the other the 

canal project. The canal project ha~ not received the assent of those 

people residing high up on the Mississippi River. It has been con- demned by the entire popul~tion of the Mississippi River excepting 

a few persons, or perhaps a majority of the inhabitants of the city of 

New Orleans. Our object is to have an outlet, whether it be a canal or whether it be one of the main channels of the river. How are we 

to obtain an outlet! How are we to ascertain which one of these 

projects is the true one to accomplish this great object 7 It is only 

by a scientific examination of the object to be accomplished. 

We have believed that the Army ha..(l. not exhibited the proper 

scientific skill to accomplish that object. For nearly forty years have 

the Army engineers been employed on that work and nothing has 

been done. 'Ve therefore ask Congress here to appoint a commission 

composed in part of Army officers, in part of officers connected with 

the Coast Survey, and in part of civilians, reserving to the Government of the United States a majority of this commission, that is, two 

from the Army, two from the Coast Survey, ai;td three from civil life, 

making seven, securing to the Government upon that commission one majority. ·we are not asking much. There can be no just reason why this should be refused. The expense certainly is of no consequence. We of the West demand it; we say it is our right; we say 

that our great trade demands an outlet to the ocean. There is no other outlet but the Mississippi River. That is now obstructed and we wish it open; but, sir. we are not even able to obtain from the' Congress of the United States any appropriation to pay~ small commission to accomplish the object. Th~ misfortune was exhibited in the 

formation of the committee itself. Upon the committee of conference there was not a single man from the Senate residing on the 

waters that flow into the Gulf of Mexico. In the Ho"Q.se there was but oue. I do not speak of these things· with a view of finding fault 

with individual members of the committee, but the faot is that not a single member of the committee of conference on the part of the. Senate resides on the waters that ftow into the Gulf of Mexico. One 

is from Michigan, another from Mary land1 and another from tJJ,e State 

of Connecticut, and not one is in sympathy with us, not one is in 

interest with us. So it was with the committee on the part of the 

House. But a single member of that committee on the part of the 

House was from the West. All the other persons reside on the waters 

that flow into the Atlantic Ocean, or near to it. 

Now, sir, I am not dwelling here upon the difference a.s t9 the ability 

of the engineers in civil life or in the military department of the 

Government; but it is not saying much to say that the civilians have 

exhibited an amount of engineering skill, to say the least, equal t() 

the Army ; and indeed they have exhibited more ability in the ac- complishment of great work$ of improvement in every portion of 

this country. My colleague says they have exhibited more in EuJ 

rope and the world over. I believe they have; put without dwelling 

upon an argument of this chara-cter or finding fault with those men all we asked and all we ask now is that a number of eminent civilians shall be put upon this commission to co-operate with a majority 

of Government officers, that is two from the Army, two from the 

Coast Survey, and three from civil life, so as to make llo commission 

of seven men to examine this great project, a work of importance to us which is incalculable, because unless we can get an outlet to the ocean the whole western world for all time tQ come will be paralyzed 

in its energy. It is true we can get there by railroads; it is true we can get there by the use of small crafts; put the time has come when 

the great commerce of the West cannot be restrained, caunot be 

limited, and certainly what objection can there be 7 Why should the 

Senate, why sl).ould Congress, hesitate for a moment to give the 

proper commission here f Is it the expense 7 Is it eight, ten, or fifteen thousand dollars, more or less of cost f I was astonished when 

I heard the report of the committee that there could be hesitation on a matter of this kind. \Vhy should E~tern Senators at all hesitate on a subject of this kind T We who know the interests of the West 

who represent their interest on this floor, claim it; and why should 

it not be given to us f 1,Ve do not ask for a large appropriation. We 

only ask for a scientific exploration, and if that scientific exploration 

does not prove that the great work can be accomplished in a proper 

way the. report of this commission would so show and there would be an end of the whole thing. All we ask is the means to ascertain the 

great fa-ct w hethet that work caQ. be done. 

Hence, :Mr. President, I hop(} that that portion of the report 9f the 

committee of conference will not be received, that another committee will be appointed, and that in the creation of that committee 

the Presiding Officer will not forget that there are members of this . body who re ide on the WI'Lters that flow into the Gulf of Mexico, and 

that those men are presumed to know their interests perhaps a little 

better than those who reside in the extreme Nortl). and Ea.st. We 

claim it aa a right due to us, because we look upon thia commission, 

organized a~ it is, as an entire and complete defeat Qf all which we thought we had a-ccomplished, or nearly a-ccomplished. Let ~other 

committee be appointed, not composed of western men en~ely, but 

let the western men be represented on that committee by a sllfficient 

number at lea.st to make their interests kno'\'\'D. to that committee. 

I hope, Mr. President, that that portion of the report whlcl;l has 

changed the organization of this commission entirely will not be 

approved by the Senate. 

Mr. CHANDLER. The Senator .from Missouri seems to be untler a slight misapprehension. This report represents the views of the 
5370 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. Ju~TE 22 ' 

House of Representatives. They made a point, and a very strong 

point, on this amendment. The committee on the part of the House was composed of one member from Ohio, one from Missouri, and one from Wisconsin. 

Mr. BOGY. \Vill the Senator permit me one word-¥ 

Mr. CHANDLER. Certainly. 

fr. BOGY. The member from Ohio resides on the lakes; the member from Wisconsin also resides on the lakes; and there was only one member of the committee on the part of the House who re- sides on the waters that flow into the Gulf of Mexico. 

l\Ir. CHANDLER. They could hn-rdly be called eastern men, any one of them. Fault has been found with the board of engineers for 

not ha.ving accomplished more for the mouth of the Mi sissi ppi River. 

It is but justice to that board of engineers to state that they have 

brought in plan after plan ..for the improvement of that river, but 

appropriatioDB have never been made by Congress to carry out their 

plans. .At this very session a r~port has been submitted to Congress 

in which this work is recommended almost unanimously by the board 

of engineers. The House demanded more than the Senate would 

yield. The House desired to add one to the number of .Army engineers. 

The committee on the part of the Senate would not yield that, but it 

allowed two from the Board of .Army engineers, two from the Coa t 

Survey, and one- from civil life, taking the absolute control of the 

board out of the hands of the engineer officers of the .Army. 

Mr. SCHURZ. May I ask the Senator from Michigan since this 

talk about the proceedings of the committee, is it not the fact that 

the House propo ed three .Army engineer, one from the Coast Survey, 

and three from civil life¥ 

:Mr. CHANDLER. I think so. J'\Ir. SCHURZ. Precisely; and then after having admitted three 

from civil life, a proposition with which we would h.ave been perfectly satisfied, two engineers from civil life were stricken out. 

l\Ir. CILU.TDLER. The Senate pommittee would ·not consent to 

strike out two from the Coa t Survey. .At any rate we made the very 

best terms we could make with the House committee, and I think 

that the President nominates them all, and we shall have a good 

board of engineers, probably the best that will be found in .America 

when it shall have been made; but of course it, is for the Senate to 

decide whether the report shall be received or rejected. 

Mr. BOGY. I understand the Senator from Michigan to say that 

the House committee was willing to appoint three from civil life, . three from the .Army, and one from the Coast Survey~ and that the 

Senate committee was unwilling to agree to tha.t. The House com- mittee was much more liberal on the subject than the Senate com- mittee, and that is the ~gument I mp.de a while ago, th~t on that 

committee western men m the Senate had no representatiOn at all, 

and the best evidence of that is that western men would not have 

agreed to this proposition. . !\Ir. LOGAN. Mr. President, I have but little to say, but what I 

shall say will be in answer to the argument made by the Senator 

from Connecticut [Mr. BucKINGHA.l\1] in reference to this question. 

I am in favor of the report made by the Committee on TraDBportation. I think if that report had been adopted it would have been a great deal better for several reasoDB than the report that has b en agreed to in conference. The Senator from Connection t seemed to 

find fault with the number of three civil engineers, on the ground 

that it would be too expensive, or at least that was my inference 

from his remarks. 

Mr. BUCKINGHAM. That they would be unnecessary. 

Mr. BOGY. We will raise the money to pay them, if it is necessarv. Mr. LOG .AN. I wa.s going to ans-wer that in this way: When we are c:roing to enter on a great enterprise like the openmg the mouth 

of the Mississippi River, either by the makin~ of canals or by some other mode, and when before that is accomplished, which I have no doubt will cost this Government probably 10,000,000, especia.lly if it 

is to be a canal as expensive as it must nece ari1y be, it strikes me as a strange kind of economy to strike out two civil engineers for the 

purpose of saving mon,ey, thus preventing the boardfrom having the 

number desired. This seems to me to be a very strange argument. 

I think it would be economy to get a. board of engineers made up 

of different kinds of engineers. Take them from the .Army, from the 

Coa-st Survey, and from civil life, and we would get a proposition 

before the Congress of the United Stat es that could be carried out 

and would be of great advantage to the country. Sofn.r ars the .Army 

is concerned, I have no fault to :find with the engineers of the .Army; 

but I would suggest that the engineers of the .Army. are already com- mitted in divers ways to a certain plan for the opeillng of the mouth 

of the Mississippi River. 

My friend from Michigan [Mr. CHANDLER] says they are to be appointed by the President. I presume he means they are to be detailed 

by the Chief Engineer to perform that work. I suppo e that is what 

he means. I do not know whether the bill provides that the e engi- neers shall be appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate or not. 

Mr. WINDOM. The appointment of the corps of engineer is by 

the President. 

~Ir. LOGAN. Very well; then this is to be a mere detail. The a,ppointment by the President in the corps of engineers is merely an order to the Chief Engineer to detail the number of officers proviued 

for in the bill, ·nothing more, nothing less. The same order is given 

to the Coast Survey, and the detail is made by the chief of that department. It is not an appointment at all, nor a selection by the President ; but as this bill makes it, it is a mere detail from the Corps of 

.Army Engineers :tnd from the Coast Survey. Heuce the only appointment made by the Pre ident is the appointment of the one civil engi- neer that you mention in your bill. It would be perfectly natural, 

then, for the details to be made, so far as the .Army is concerned, 

from the same parties who have heretofore examined and made re- ports on this subject. In the Coast Survey it would be different, for 

they have made no report on this subject. I do not wish to repeat what has been said here by both Senators from 

Missouri in reference to the grand achievements which have been ac- complished by civil engineers; but I do assert as a fact that the great 

achievements in this country by engineers have been by men in civil 

life. .As I said, I do not desire to :find fault with or criticise the Engi- neers of the .Army; but I will say this, and the Senator from Michigan knows it, they can spend more money and do less work than 

any set of men that ever lived; and that is a historical fact in this 

country. .As an illustration of this, in order to show you orne of the :fine 

engineering and the ingenuity that exist in the minds of orne men, 

take this Capitol, laid out by an engineer, the plans all made, the 

ventilation arranged. Then step over ·to the House, and there you 

:find a thermometer on the walls, standing there yet that has not been ·taken down, to show that the heat could never be above 100 and never could get down below 500; and why 'f Becan e the apparatus was made so that the mercury never could rise above 70° or get below 

50°, and it is there on the walls to-day. That is the ingenious part 

of the department, and so it is in reference to its work. There never has been a great work done by them yet that had not to be done over acrain by somecivilengineer. I have aletterinmypo essionfrom the 

Chlef of Engineers showing that the work of the department is carried 

on, I will not say in the major part, but in a great part, by civilians. 

One of the greatest expenses of that Bureau is that they have to em- ploy civilians. I will not sa.y that work cannot be performed by the 

officers, but in that Bureau they employ civilians in the making of 

maps, laying out plans, designs, specifications, and indeed all wmk 

done· by that department. is done to-day by civiliaDB; and some of 

them are employed at as high a salary as your Senators get. 

These are undeniable facts, and hence my judgment is that the 

be t engineers we have in this country are civilians; and there is a. reason for it. These men are good engineers-nobody doubts that;· but will anybody tell me that the course of stndy at We t Point 

years ago, until it was changed, could make good engineers and good 

scholars in the length of time they had to ~o through their studies 

there t It was impossible. .Any man who will take up and read tha.t 

which was required of these men until within the last three or four 

years will see that it was an impossibility. They micrht become goou 

engineers with practice afterward, but you could not make an engineer that could compete in science with those men who had 

given years and years of study to it and are practical operators 

besides. Hence I am in favor of putting as many civilians on this 

boa.rd as have been suggested, for the reason that I believe W/3 shall 

get then a better report; all the different phases of these plaDB will 

be examined, and exa.mi.necl in such a way as to give us an account 

that will ·cost the lea t money to the Government, and one that will 

be the most beneficial to the country, too. I say we do feel an interest in this great work in the West. I do not make any appeal on account of the West, but it has been well said by the Senator from 

Missouri, [Mr. BoGY,] it is a great water outlet to the commerce of 

that. country, and one tha.t the people of the West feel such an interest in that they are willing to make such appropriatioDB as will 

give them that outlet at all seasons of the year. But you now propose that the engineers sh:tll have control of this commission, which 

they will have as it is to be organized, because they have made re- port after report and have been contending with the difficulties for 

thirty-odd years, and they will have the control unle s you put 

ci viliaDB enough on the commission, so that with the engineers from 

the Coast Survey they will make the proper examinations and ex- amine all the different plans and :find the feasibility of each one of 

them. · ~ 

For these reasons I think the committee from the Senate of the United 

States shoulcl, without speaking about expenses, without speaking 

about the commission being too large, be willing to place such num- ber of civilians upon it as will make it certain when the report comes in that we may rely upon it, having them altogether, civili..'1ns, 

Co a t Survey, and .Army engineers, and insure such a report as will be 

reliable. J'\fr . .ALCORN. I will not detain the Senate m01·e than a few mo- ment in glving the reasons why I think this report should be sent 

back to another committee of conference. That the Senator who 

have spoken. to-night are not satisfied with the organization as at 

present made woulcl be a sufficient rea on with me though I had no other. The object of this survey is to have one that the country ca.n rely upon; and it is altogether necessary that the board of engineers should be :fixed in such a. way as to go into the work supported with 

the confidence of the people. I have every confidence in the ability 

and in the capacity and scientific attainments of the .Army Engineer Corps, and also in that of the Coast Survey Corps; and thn,t we 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5371 

have engineers of the highest skill in civil life there can be no question. From all these sources we could obtain men of sufficient ability to solve the great problems that are to be solved before the Government enters on this work. It is a. great work, and the determination of this country is that the work shall be done. Then how shall 

it be begun Y By a report from a board of engineers. Then, in 

Heaven's name, let us have that board .of engineers such a one as 

'vill repre ent the views of the diftercnt sections of the country, if 

sections can enter into the calculations of scientific men. I apprehended when these men of ·science meet together to solve 

this problem there will be no great divergence upon the questions 

of fact involved in the true theory of this plan. But it will be said 

here, unless this board of engineers is altered from the arrangement now made, a certain representation necessary to the true development and trne exposition of the facts has not been made. I say with 

full confidence in the corps of engineers as establi bed by the com- mittee of conference, that I would be perfectly willing myself, if it was satisfactory, to vote for it. I have faith in the report they will 

make. Still from the fact that it is not satisfactory to Senators who 

have spoken, and who reflect a sentiment that exists in the. country, 

I will vote now to make it satisfactory to them, and I think it is a sufficient reason when they say they !tre not satisfied, that I should 

vote to make it satisfactory to them. · 1't1r. WINDOM. Perhaps no more important or cliffic'llit question 

will be pre entetl to the Senate at its next se ion than that which 

will be involved in the report to be made by this commission. The- Committee on Transportation have given a great deal of attention to 

this subject. They have studied it with care, ea.rnestly believing 

that the people of this country demand -the opening of the mouth of 

the Mi sis ippi by the best po ible method that can be adopted. The 

amendment which they proposed to the bill and which was adopted 

by the Senate th;lot committee believe will best effect that object. 

Now, Mr. President, I want to say for one t,b.at I have confidence in 

the board of engineers; but at the same time it is well known ihat 

there are two or throe different means proposed for that improvement. One is by a canal; another is by an open: mouth of -the Missi sippi, to be effected by a sy tern of jetties; and another is by utilizing the South Pass by means of locks at its head, which will have 

the effect of giving us a channel :five hundred feet in width. It is 

believed by very many that the Engineer Department is committed 

to one plan; and for this reason the committee thought, as we must 

have information on this subject, that it is very important that we bring to bear on it all the talent that the country has or that we cau afford to employ; and that the commission of seven, a provided for 

by the amendment of the Senate, would give us more reliable information, information upon which we should be more certain ·to act at 

the next session of Congress; and without detaining the Senate with 

any further rema:rk, I believe .that this matter is of sufficient importance to justify us in asking for a further conference with the hope of 

obtaining another commission for this purpo e. I believe that if we bring in new life into this commission, men who 

have not committed themselves to any scheme, men who will study 

the whole subject and take in all the plans and report on them at the 

next session of Congress, we shall have a report upon which we can act more safely, and I think more certainly, than as. provided for 

by this-conference committee report; and although the e sion is near its end, I think there will be but little difficulty .if we reject this re- port, in changing the commission in a way that will be more satisfactory to the people most interested in the subject, and on behalf of the 

Committee on Transportation who have recommended the commission, I think the Senate shotlld give us another conference. 

Mr. WEST. I wish to say one word to the Sena.te as to the progress 

that has been made by the Engineer Corps of the lumy of late years 

in investigating this subjP-ct. On the 14th of March, 1 71, the House 

of"Repre entatives pa sed this resolution: 

That the Secretary of War be, and be is hereby, requested to cause an examination and survey, with plans and estimates of cost, to be made by an officer of ·engi- n era, for a ship-canal to connect the Missi ippi River with the Gulf of Mexico, or the navigable waters thereof, of suitable location and dimensions for military, na.vnl, and commercial purposes, anu that he report upon the feasibility of the su.me to the House of Representatives. 

Mark you, that duty was imposed on the Engineer Corps in March., 

1 71. After spending three years surveying, boring, planning, specifying, &c., we :find this conclu ion. Here is their report, made in the 

spring of this year. After three years' examination of tlris subject they come to this result: 

To determme, however, the best line for the location of the canal across the 

peninsula.l and the b t point for its entering the river, and al o the position and manner ot its entering Isle au Breton Pass, requires further survey, borings, and 

other examinations anu measurements, and the preparation of plans base<l upon their results. 

In the name of conscience for how many more years do you intend 

to commit that problem to the Engineer Corps of the lumy of the 

United States, when at the end of three years they say they have not 

even pr(J]Jared the plans for opening the mouth of that riverT Now 

is this an unreasonable reque t after such a result as that, after three 

years with the whole ability of theEnginee1· Corps of·the .A..rmyof the 

United States devoted to it, when they come back here with a par- tial report and ~ay they want more time to prepare that plant I 

think the great interests involved in this case ought to be committed 

to men who know something about the subject and who will not come in after three years and want more time. 

Mr. SHERMAN. In a matter of this kind very often on a single 

point a committee of conference may not have ma-de a very satisfactory arrangement. I have do doubt at all that now if this matter was recommitted to the committee they would make a report perfectly satisfactory. I know the feeling with regard to the organization of this commission is that civil engineers should be representec.l on the boa.rd for the examination of this work. I therefore, to expedite the matter, move that the report be recommitted to the same committee of conference, both of the Senate and Ho\].se, and I have no doubt, for I have conversed with members of the committee, that 

in :five minutes they can arrange this matter satisfactorily. 

Mr. DAVIS. I will agree to this recommittal with the under tanding that the committee will bring in the number sufficient. 

Mr. SHERMAN. They understand t.hat perfectly. 

Mr. WEST. I move that the report be recommitted to the same committee of conference with instructions to increase the number of 

civil engineers. [" 0, no."] 

J\fr. SHERMAN. I would not instruct them at all. 

:Mr. WEST. It may not be understood. 

The PRESIDENT pro tmnpore. The Chair will. observe that the 

practice has been against such instructions. 

Mr. SHERMAN. I move that the report bo recommitted to the same committee of conference. 

J't!J:. HAGER. I desire simply to expre s my regret that the com- mittee have left out the appropriation for the harbor of San Diego, 

which was put in the other day on my motion in the Senate. I say so because I have been told by the Coast Survey Department that 

unless the ha.rbor is protected, it will cost at least 2,000,000 to restore 

that harbor in the course of a few years, and that is the report of 

General Alexander, of the Corps of Engineers, who has telegraphed re- cently calling the attention of the department to the importance of 

the pre ervation of that harbor, the only one, as I stated, for a thousand miles on that coast where the ocean steamers are in the habit of 

putting iu in stres of weather. · The PRESIDENT pro t-empore. The question is on the motion of the 

Senator froin Ohio to recommit the report to the conference committee. 

The motion was agreed to. 

ORDER OF BUSINESS. 

J\1r. HARVEY. I move that the Senate proceed to the consideration 

of Hou e bill No. 3250. • Mr. WINDOM:. I have a report from a committee of conference 

to submit. 

Mr. BOUTWELL. I object until I know what the bill is. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The title of the bill will be readtfor 

information. 

The CHIEF CLERK. A bill (H. R. No. 3250) to confirm pre-emption 

and homestead entries of public lands within the limits of railroad 

grants in cases where such entries have been made under the regulations of the Land Department. 

1't1r. MORRILL, of Vermont. I think conference reports ought to 

be received before anything else is done. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempm·e •. The question is, "Will the Serrato 

proceed to consider this bill t" • · Mr. BOUTWELL. I know enough about that bill to be able to say 

that it cannot pass the Senate without a great deal of discussion. It 

will require, in order that it may be acted upon with a proper under~ 

standing of the subject, a goo(J. deal of examination. I hope the 

Sonate will not undertake to consider it at this session. 

J\1r. HARVEY. I am ready for the discussion, but I apprehend it 

will not take long to make it fully understood by the Senate. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. Is a conference report in orderf 

The PRESIDENT pro ternpm·e. A conference report, under the 

rules of the Senate, has no privilege. The Senato1· from Kansas moves to consider the bill named by him. 

Mr. WRIGHT. I trust that the bill moved by the Senator from 

Kansas, reported from the Committee on Public Lands, will be taken 

up. If this bill should lead to discussion let it be so. It is a matter 

of the greatest importance to settlers and all persons interested in 

public lands that this bill should be taken up and passed, if possible. 

I trust therefore the Senate will take up the bill and act upon it. 

1't1r. STEW ART. I hope it will not be taken up, for I think the bill 

has a good many defects in it that the committee, if they consider it more deliberately, will be able to· remedy. _ Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. I wish to say that the enrolling 

clerks think it will be impossible for them to enroll the bills in the 

hands of conference committees unless they can have them at once,; 

and I hope therefore we shall proceed with the conference reports b~ 

fore anything else is done. · .-,. J\1r. WRIGHT. Ithink the bill should betaken npevenif it has to 

be laid a-side informally for conference reports. 

The PRESIDENT pro ternpo1·e. The question is on the motion of 

the Senator from Kansas to proceed to the consideration of House 

bill No. 3250. 

Mr. HARVEY. I hope the bill will be taken up. 

The motion was not agreed to. 
5372 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 

GAS-WORKS. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. The Chair wilf recognize any Senator with the report of a committee of conference. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont, submitted the following report: 

The committee of conference on the disagreeing votes of the two Houses on the · amendments to the bill (S. No. 733) regulating gas-works, havin.,. met, after full and 

free conference have agreed to recommend, and do recommenif. to their respective 

Houses as follows: 

That the Senate recede from its disa.,l7r68ment to the first amendment of the 

House, and agree to the same. That the senate recede from its disagreement to the second amendment of the 

House, and agree to the same with the following amendments: Strike out the words 

"eight dollais" and insert in lieu thereof the words "ei?ht dollars and fifty cents-" 

and after the words •' ensuing year," insert the words ' excepting the Ritchie min- eral and the Richmond coal, the cost of which shall not enter into any calculation 

in making up an average, which statement shall be." 

The committee also recommend the following amendment to section 16: Strike out the words "Washington Gas-light Company" a.nd insert in lieu thereof the 

words "any gas-light company in the District of Columbia." 

JUSTIN S. MORRILL, 

WM. B. ALLISON, 

HENRY COOPER, ]tfanag~ors on the part of the Se-nate. 

W. L. SESSIONS, 

C:HAS. O'NEILL, 

STEVENSON ARCHER, 

Managers em the part of the HO'I.UJe. 

Mr. D.A. VIS. I should like to ask the Senator from Vermont whether 

the report makes any change in the cost of gas 'f 

Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. None at :ill. 

The report was concurred in . . 

L.'l"SA.J.~ CONVICTS. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN submitted the following report: 

The committee of conference on the disagreeing vot{)S of the two Houses on the 

bill (H. R. No. 3415) to provide for the care and custody of persons convicted in the courts of the United States who have or may become inane while imprisoned, 

having met, after full and free conference have agreed to recommend, and do rae- om end, to their respective Hous s a.s follows: 

That the House concur in the Senate amendments. 

Th~ report was concurred in. 

F. T. FRELINGHUYSE:N, 

GEORGE G. WRIGHT, 

J. W. STEVENSON, 

Managers on the part of the Senate. 

C. D. MAcDOUGALL, 

J. B. RICE, 

R. M. SPEER, 

Managers on the part of the House. 

. POST-OFFICE Al'PROPRIATIO~ BILL. 

Ur. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. President--

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempm·e. Does the Senator from New Jersey 

rise 'th another conference report f ~Ir. FRELINGHUYSEN. I desire to have the floor for the purpose 

of calling up a bill--

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. The Chair will recognize any Senator with a conference report. 

:Mr. WIND HilL I desire to submit the report of the committee of 

conference on the post-office appropriation bill. 

The Chief Clerk rea4 as follows : 

The committee of conference on the disa-greeing votes of the two Houses on the 

bill (H. R. No. 3094) makin~ appropriations for ·the service of the Post-Office De- partment for the year endfu~ June 30, 1875, and for other purposes, having met, after full and free conference nave agreed to recommend, and do recommend, to their 

respective Houses as follows: 

That the Senate recede from its amendments numbered 13 and 15. 

That the House recede from its disagreement to the amendments numbered 2and 

5, and a.uree to the same. That the House recede from its disagreement to the sixth amendment. 

Mr. WINDOM. Perhaps I may save time by stating that this is 

preci,sely the same report heretofore f!!Ubmitted with two exceptions. First, the charge for newspaper postage is 2 cents instead of 1t cents, 

and the committee provide also that the daily CoxGRESSIONAL REcORD may be sent through the mails at 1 cent ea{lh. Those are the 

only changes from the previous report. 

The report was concurred in. 

OlU)ER OF BUSINESS. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I move that the Sen:tte proceed to the 

consideration of House bill No. 3097 in relation to courts :mdjudicial 

officers in the Territory of Utah. 

Mr. SPENCER. We cannot pass. that . . Mr. "RAMSEY. Is that the report of a committee of conference f 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. The Chair is informed it is not, 

but the Senator from New J ersey obtained the :floor for the purpose 

of calling up the bill. 

Mr. RAMSEY. I thought I had the floor before anq I wa.s ruled 

out simply because I had not the report of a committee of conference. 

If the Senator from New Jersey rises with other busiuess I claim the 

floor. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. The Senator from Minnesota is mistaken aa to the matter of fact. He did not have the floor. 

Mr. D.A. VIS. I give notice that I intend to press the Calendar of 

1mobjected cases, and I shall object to any bill so that we may go 

along with the Calendar of unobjected cases. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I move tl!at the Senate proceed to the 

consideration of this bill. _ 

Mr. D.A. VIS. I understand that is the bill relating to Utah, which 

of course will give rise to some discussion. ~Ir. FRELINGHUYSEN. I think not. 

Mr. DAVIS. I have heard Senators say they meant t{) discuss it. 

I do not intend to discuss it myself. The1·e is a large number of unobjected cases on the Calendar, and I think they ought to be considered. 

It is only intended to consider such as are unobjected to, and I think we ought to proceed with them. 

~Ir. FRELINGHUYSEN. I think we ought to proceed with the 

Utah bill. 

~Ir. LOGAN. I was ono who pronosed to discuss the bill, but in 

view of the circumstances I shall not do so. 

~Ir. SPENCER. Every committee of the Senate has had a day ex- cept the Committee on the District of Columbia, and there are two bills 

reported from the Committee on the District of Columbia that ourrht 

tO be passed. There is House bill No. 2179 to incorporate the Inl~nd and Sea-board Coasting Company of the District of Columbia that 

willnotrequire any discussion whatever. Every Senator on hearinu 

it read will agree to the necessity and justice of passing it. I mov~ 

that the Senate proceed to the consideration of House bill No. 2179. 

It will not take two minutes; and .the Committee on the District of 

Colq.mbia have not had one hour during this session. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The motion of t.he Senator from New 

Jersey to proceed with his bill is pending. ~Ir. SPENCER. If· ·the Senator is willing to yield to me to pass 

this bill I will then vote for his motion. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I want the Utah bill taken up first. 

Mr. WRIGHT. At the last session of Congre s a bill much less severe and much more objectionable than the bill that is now presented to the Senate-! mean much more objectionable to any per- sons who deem that leg4!lation on this subject is advisabl&-pa ed 

the Senate. · I am not aware that the bill as it stands now is particularly objectionable. This fa{lt is patent that in Utah they are substantially without courts and without any of the machinery that is 

necessary to enforce the law. Now we are within sixteen hours of 

the adjournment. The question is whether we shall take up this 

bill at this tim~ and if possible pn.ss it, or whether we shall occupy our time in pressing private bills. I believe this bill can be passeu 

in half an hour or an hour. 

Mr. ALCORN. I rise to a point of order. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Senator from Mississippi will 

state his point of order • 

~Ir . .A.LCOR.L~. It is whether the question of taking up the bill is 

debatable. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. It is ; but not as to the merits. The 

question of taking it up is debatable; the merits of the bill are not 

debatable on this motion. The Senator from Iowa has not touched 

the merits of the bill, but is trying to show that it ought to be taken 

up now. 

Mr. ALCORN. I thought he was talking about the condition of 

the Territory, and the bill that waa passed by the Senate at the last 

session of Congress. , 

Mr. WRIGHT. I have said nothing in reference to the merits of 

this bill, as to how we should vote or what disposition should be 

made of it. I am only speaking of the necessity of some action on the subject. That we should pa s some bill, either this with amendments or some other bill, in view of the condition of things in Utah, 

it seems to me is patent to every person. Now, the question is 

whether we shall spend half an hour or an hour at this time of the 

night for the purpo e of disposing of this bill, or whether we shall 

have a scramble here over private bills and let this go over. It seems to me that on every principle I can possibly think of, it is due to the 

country that we should take up this bill and make some disposition 

of it. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question is on the motion of 

the Senator from New Jersey. 

The question being put, there were on a division-ayes 20, noes 18 

Mr. SARGENT called for the yeas and nays; and they were ordered.' 

Mr. THURl\IAN, (at one o'clock and two minutes a. m.) I move that the Senate adjourn. 

The motion was not agreed to; there being on division-ayes 18, noes 22. 

The PRESIDENT pro ternpm·e. The question recurs on the motion 

of the Senator from New Jersey to take up the Utah bill. 

The question being taken by yeas and nays, resulted-yeas 26, nays 

23; as follows : 

YEAS-Messrs. Allison, Anthony, Boreman, Boutwell, Buckingham, Carpenter' 

Chandler, Conover, Ferry of Michigan, Flanagan, Frelinghuysen, Harvev, Logan, 

Mitchell, Morrill of Vermont, Pease, Robertson, Scott, Sherman, Spencer,' Sprague, 

Tipton, Wadleigh, West, Windom, and Wright-26. 

NAYS-Messrs . .Alcorn, Bayard, Bogy, Clayton, Cooper, Davis, Dennis, Goldthwaite, Gordon, Hager, Hamilton of Texas, B1tchcock, Ingalls, Kelly, M rrimon, Norwood, Ransom, Sargent, Saulsbury, Schurz, Stevenson, Stockton, and Thurma.n-23. .ABSENT-Messrs. Brownlow, Camero~, Conkling, Cragin, Dorsey, Edmunds. Fenton, Ferry of Connecticut, Gilbert, Hamilton of Maryland, Hamlin, Howo 

Johnston, .Tones.!. Lewis, McCreery, Morrill of Maine, Morton, Oglesby, rattersol\ 

Pratt, Ramsey, ~t{)wart, and Washburn-~4. 

So the motion was agreed to. 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5373 

liliLROAD POSTAL SERVICE. 

Mr. MITCHELL. In the Senate on the 24th of M::trch, 1873, the 

following resolution was adopted: 

&sol·ved, That the Select Committee on Transportation Routes to the Sea-board 

be directed to inquire and report to the Senate, at its next session, as to the nature :md extent of the obligations subsistin~ between the railroB4 .compani~s aJ?d t~e 

po tal service of the country; and whether any and what additional legislation 1s necessary to guard the postal service a~ainst inteiTUption or injury by hostile action on the part of any or all of said railroaa companies. 

In pursuance of this resolution the Select Committee on Transportation Routes to the Sea-board took a large amount of testimony, and 

the whole matter was a few weeks ago referred to myself as a subcommittee to report to the committee. The sub-committee has prepared a report and submitted it to the committee, and they have instructed me, not having time to examine it, to present the report to 

the Senate and ask that 1t be printed and recommitted for examination 

during the recess; and in that connection they have also instructed me to ofl:er the following resolution, which I ask for the immediate con- sideration of: 

Resolved, That the Sele<lt Committee on Transportation Routes to the Se.'l>-board 

be authorized to r eport at the next session of Congress a bill provi~g fort~eco~· 

p ensation for :{>Ostal.car service; and for that purpose the sa1d co=ttee 1s 

authorized to s1t at Washington City during the recess of Congress, and to make 

such further investigations as it may deem proper, and to employ a clerk; and that 

the actual necessary expenses be paid out of the contingent fund of the Senc\te 

upon vouchers approved by the chairman of the committee. 

:Mr. ROBERTSON. Can that resolution be considered if there be one objection 7 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. It cannot/ 

1\Ir. ROBERTSON. I object. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempo1·e. The' question Is on printing the 

report. · 

The report was ordered to be printed. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempo1·e. The resolution will lie over, objection to its present consideration being made. 

C0:\1MITTEE 0~ THE LIBRARY. 

M:r. ALLISON. I ~ubmit the following resolution on behalf of the 

Library Committee: 

Resolved, That the Committee on the Library have leave to sit during the recess of the Senate. 

The resolution was considered by unanimous consent, and agreed to. 

PAY OF PAGES. 

~Ir. FLANAGAN. I offer a small resolution: 

Resolved, That the usual per diem compensation be paid to the pages up to the 

lOth of July. 

Mr. WRIGHT. I believe an order was made on that subject up to - the 1st of July the other day. 

Several SENATORS. That is long enough. 

1.Ir. FLANAGAN. The little boys will be kept here a considerable • time yet. There is a good deal of business for them to do. I hope they will be encouraged. 

The resolution was considered by tmanimous consent, and agreed to. 

TEXAS JUDICIAL DISTRICTS. 

1\Ir. WRIGHT. I wish to make a report. The Committee on the 

Judiciary, to whom was referred the bill (S. No. 736) to change the 

boundaries of the ea.stern and western judicial districts of the State 

of Texas, and to fix the times and places of holding courts in the 

same, have instructed me to 1·eport it back and recommend its passage. 

The PRESIDENT pm tempore. The bill will be placed on the Calendar. 

PROTECTION OF PERSONS ·OF FOREIGN BIRTH. 

Mr. ANTHONY. As the Utah bill has been taken np-- 1\Ir. FRELINGHUYSEN. Let us get on with it. :Mr. SARGENT. There is a bill which has passed the House to pre- vent the slavery of Italian children reported favorably by the Judiciary Committee of this body. I do not think it will take a minute 

to pass it, li it is pa sed, there is an amendment reported by the 

Judiciary Committee that the House can concur iu. It is a most hu- mane bill, and I trust it may be allowed to pass. 

By unanimous consent, the bill (H. R. No. 35 1) to protect persons 

of foreign birth against forcible constraint or involuntary servitude was considered as in Committee of the Whole. 

The bill had been reported by the Committee on the Judiciary with 

amendments. 

The first amendment wn. to strike out commencing in line 7 of sec- ·tion 1 the following words: 

And whoever shall knowingly and willfully hold any other prrson in involuntary confinement or to any involuntary service, or who shall transfer any such serv- ice to any other p erson excep t for the purpose of a{lquiring a trade or occupation, in the United States, or the Territories thereof. 

The amendment was agreed to. · 

The next amendment was to strike out the third section of the bill 

in the following words : · 

SEc. 3. That every person charged with the f elonies herein declared may be tried 

in the district in which the same nave been committed, or in any district in which 

the person so inveigled, brought, kidnapped, sold, or held has been ta.ken nuder auch confinement or holtling to involuntary servitude. 

The motion was agreed to. 

Mr. THURMAN. I move to strike out the fourth section. 

The Chief Clerk read the fourth section, as follows : 

SEC. 4. That upon the trial of the felonies herein declared, the consent of the per- son so held, confined, or kidnapped shall not be a defense unless it appear satisfactorily to the jury tha,t such consent was not extorted by threats or by duress. 

Mr. THURMAN. That section admits that consent, not extorted 

by duress or violence, is a defen e, and well·it mn..y admit it because 

the grawmenof the charge is that one person holds another in involuntary servitude, which cannot be the case where the party so held 

consents. The idea of there bein~. consent shows that there is no involuntary servitude; but now this fourth section provides that 

although consent be given, it shall be no defense unless it shall appear 

that that consent was not the result of duress or violence. 

Mr. SARGENT. I do not think it is necessary to debate it. I have no objection to the section going out. 

The PRESIDENT p1'0 tempore. The question is on the atllendment 

to strike out the fourth section. The amendment was agreed to. The bill was reported to the Senate as amended and the amendments were concurred in. The amendments w.ere ordered to be engrossed and the bill to be 

read a third time. 

The bill wa read the taird time, and passed. 

RIVER AND HARBOR BILL. 

1\Ir. DENNIS. I am instructed by the committee of conference to 

submit a second report on the bill (H. R. No. 3l.P~) making appropriations for the .repair, preservation, and completion of certain public 

works for rivers and harbors, and for other purposes. 

llr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I suggest that the Clerk read the change 

and not the whole report. The CHIEF CLERK. The change is in the last paragraph of the 

report, which now reads : 

That the House recede from its disagreement to the amendment numbered 50, 

and agree to the same with an amendment as follows: strike out the words " two from the Army, two from the Coast Survey," and insert in lieu thereof "three 

from the Army, one from the Coast Survey;" also strike out the word "fifty" and 

insert the words "twenty-five" in lieu thereof ; and the Senate agree to the same. 

Mr. STEW ART and Mr. SHERMAN. How will it read then f 

Mr. BUCKINGHAM. The word "three" is restored in the~ second 

line. 

Mr. SHERMAN. Meaning three from civil life' 

1\Ir. BUCKINGHAM. Yes. 

1\Ir. WEST. I see that they have cut the appropliation down to 

$25,000; and how are you to pay the civil engineers f 

lli. SHERMAN. We shall have to raise the money for them. 

Mr. WEST. Very well; we will raise the money for them. 

Mr. BUCKINGHAM. I should like to have the. Clerk report the 

clause as it is amended, "three" being inserted instead of " one" on the second line, 80 as to read "three from civil life." 

The CHIEF CLERK. The conference committee propose to amend 

the third section inserted by the Senate as an amendment 80 as to 

make it read: 

SEc. 3. That a bo:t.rd of engineers to be composed of three from the Army, three 

from civil life, and one from the Coast Survey, be appointed by the President; which 

said board shall make a survey of the mouth of the Mississippi River, with a view to determine the best method of obtaining and maintaining a. depth of wator sufficient for the purposes of commerce, either by a c:mal from said nver to the waters of the Gulf, or by deepening one or more of the natural outlets of said river; and 

said board shall make a full and detailed estimate and statement of the cost of ea{lh 

of aaid ylans, and shall report the same, together with their opinion thereon, showing which of said plans they deem prefera.ble, giving their reasons therefor, to the 

Secretary of W a.r, to be presented at the commencement of the second seasion of tlio 

Forty-third Congress; and tbat·the sum of 25,000, or so much thereof as may be n ecessary, is hereby appropriated, out of any funds in the Treasury not otherwise 

appropri2.ted, to defray the cost of said survay. 

The report was concurred in. 

THE CONGRESSIONAL PRINTER. 

Mr. ~TTHONY submitted the following resolution; which was con- sidered by unanimous consent, and agreed to : 

Resolved, Tha,t one hundred extra co~ies of the retort of the Senate Committee on 

fot::b~~~~tz:f&~u~~:fe~ preferre against the ongressionvJ Printer be printed 

. THE S~'ER EULOGIES. 

1\Ir. ANTHONY submitted thefollowingresolution; which was con- sidered by unanimous consent, and agreed to : 

Resolved, That frfty extra copies of the eulogies on the late Ron. Charles Sumner be 

printed and suitably bound for the nse of the committee appointed to attend his 

remains to Mass-whusetts. 

HOUR OF MEETING. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. I desireto reconsiderthevotebywhich 

the Senate fixed ·the hour of meeting for to-morrow at ten o'clock. 

,It becomes necessary to meet a little earlier on Mcount of the presenta,.-

tion of 'the report of the committee of conference on the sundry civil 

appropriation bill, which we hope to have r eady at that time, and it 

is necessary to get it to the other House in season for action upon it, 

it first having to be presented here. I move therefore to reconsider 

the vote fixing the hour of meeting to-morrow at ten o'clock with a· view to making it nine. · 

The PRESIDENT p1'o tempore. The Senator from Maine moves to 
5374 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 22, 

rescind the vote by which the Senate ordered that when it a.djourn 

to-day it be to meet to-monow at ten o'clock. 

The motion was agreed to. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. ! now move that when the Senate adjouTn it be to meet to-morrow at nine o'clock. 

The motion was not agreed to. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. Then, gentlemen, fix the time to suit 

yourselves; you understa.nd the business. 

Mr. ALCORN. Irisetoaninquiryofthe Chair. The Senator from 

Maine--

Mr. FRELiNGHUYSEN. I believe there is a bill that · I have a right to demand the regular order on. I have allowed many things 

to come in. ' 

Mr. SHERMAN. I move that when the Senate adjourns to-day it be 

to meet to-morrow at half past nine o'clock. 

Mr. B.J.\..Y.A.RD. I hope the Senator from Ohio will take a rather 

broader view of the situation and move to make it ten o'clock. 

Mr. HER~.fAN. We have just reconsidered that. . Mr. BAYARD. I move to amend the motion by saying ten o'clock. 

The PRESIDENT JYI'O tmnp&re. The Senator from Delaware moves to amend the motion by striking out" half past nine" and inserting 

"ten o'clock" to-morrow as the hour of meeting. 

The ambndment was agreed to. 

The PRESIDENT JYI'O ternpm·e. The question is on the motion as arr:lended, which is that when the Senate adjourns to day it ue to meet 

to-morrow at ten o'clock. 'rhe motion was agreed to. 

Mr. SHER~.fAN. Now I move that t.he Senate adjourn. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I think I have the floor. 

The RESIDENT p1·o tmnpore. The Utah bill being before tho Senate, and being the unfinished business, the Senator from Ohio moves that the Senate do now adjourn. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I call for the yeas and nays. 

The yeas and nays were ordered; and being taken resulted-yeas 

26, nays 24 ; as follows : 

YEAS-Me rs . .Alcorn, J3aya.rd, Bogy, Clayton, Cooper, Davis, Dennis, Goldthwaite, Gordon, Hager, Hitchcock, Jones, Kelly, Monill of Vermont, Norwood, 

Pratt, Ransom, Robertson, Saulsbury, Schurz, Scott, Sherman, Stewart, Stockton, 

Tipton, ant! Washburn-26. 

NAYS-Messrs. Anthony, Boreman Boutwell. Buckingham, Carpenter, Chandler, Conover, Feny of Michigan, Flanagan, Frelinghuysen, Harvey, llowe, Jn- ~alls, Lo~;]:an, Menimon, Mitchell, .Pease, Ramsey, Spencer, Sprague, Wadleigh, 

\Vest, Wmdom, and Wri~ht-24 . .A.:BSENT-1\Iessrs. Allison, Brownlow, Cameron, Conlding, Crno'in, Dorsey, Edmm1ds, Fenton, Ferry of Connecticut, Gilbert, Hamilton of .Mary"b.nd, Hamilton 

of Texas, Hamlin, Johnst-on, Lewis, McCreery, Morrill of Maine, Morton, Oglesby, 

l'atterson, Sargent, Stevenson, and Thurman-23. 

So the motion wa-s agreed to; ::tnd (at one o'clock and 'thirty-five 

minutes a. m. Tuesday, June 23) the Senate adjourned. 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. 

·· MONDAY, June 22, 1874. 

The House met at eleven o'clock a. m. The Chaplain, Rev. J. G. BUTLER, D. D., o:ffercu the following 

prayer: 

Thou sovereign God before whom the nations live and die, upon 

whom we depend, who hast led us all these years, now in parting 

bless us. Sanctify to us, we pray Thee, the kind providence ·which has 

spared us during these months. Sanctify to us the dispensations of 

'l'hy providence which have brought death to this Chamber. 0, let 

Thy spirit now guide our feet in the paths of obedience and peace, 

that we may enjoy ever Heaven's benediction, whether we live here or in that world in which we never die. ·we pray Thee bless the legislation of this session. Have our Government, in all its departments, 

in Thy holy keeping. Dwell Thou in every heart by Thy Holy Spirit. 

Abide with those who remain; go with those who go; and grant, 0 

God, that this land may be Immanuel's land; that truth and right- eousness and peace may everywhere prevail; and that we among the 

nations of t.he earth may continuo to be abundantly blest, illustrating 

before the world the power of the divine life. 

Father, wherein we have sllined against each other help UB to for- give as Thou hast forgiven us. Guide us ever by ';{'hy Divine coun- sel, and may we ever follow Him who ha-st taught us to pray: .. Our Father, which art in Heaven.; hallowed be Thy name. Thy 

lringuom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive 

tho e who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation; but 

ueliver us from evil: . For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and 

the glory, forever and ever. Amen . . 

READING OF THE JOURNAL. 

On motion of :M:r. DAWES, by unanimous consent, the reading of 

the J onrnal of Saturday last was dispelised with. 

GENEVA AWARD. 

Mr. BUTLER, of :Massachusetts. I submit the report which I send 

to the Clerk's desk from the committee of conference upon the 

Geneva award. bill. 

The Clerk read the report as follows : 

The committee of conference on the disagreein~ votes of the two Hou es on the 

bill (S. No.7) for the creation .of a court for the adJudication and disposition of cer- tain moneys received into the Treasury under an award made by the tribunal of 

arbitration constituted by virtue of the first article of the treaty concluded at Washington the 8th of May, .A. D. 1871, between the United States of America and 

the Queen of Great Biitain, having met, and after full and free conference, have 

agreed to recommend and do recommend to their respective Houses, as follows : That the Honse recede from its amendment to the bill of the Senate and agree to the same with the following modification, namely: Strike out section 5 anti 

insert as section 5 ·a new section in the words following: 

SEc. 5. That the President may designate a counselor at law, admitted to prac· tice in the Supreme Courtof the United States, to appeara.s counsel on behalf of the 

United States, and r epresent the interest of the Government in said snit, anti in 

all claims filed for indemnity for losses, as pro·vided by this act, subject to the supervision and control of the .A.ttorney.General. Such counsel shall receive for his 

services and expenses such reasonable allowance in each claim as maybe approved 

by the court, to be apportioned in each claim adjudicated, and paid from sait.l award 

upon the certificate of one of the judges. 

Strike out, commencing on line 11, section 11, "ana all claims provable or to be 

allowed under this act shall be stated and ruljuuged upon the basis of United States 

gold coin at the time of the loss " and insert instead "all claims." 

Strike out in section 14, commencin.~ on line 4, the words "shall retain in the 

Treasury 5 per cent. of the amount of we judgments rendered by the said court," 

and on the eighth line of same section strike out "95 per cent. of." Commencing on the twenty.second line of the same section strike ont the words "deducting n evertheless from each of the said judgments and retaining in the Trea,snry 5 per cent. of the amount of the said judgments r espectively." 

On second line of thefifteenth section strike out the words "in coin." 

On the twenty- event.h line of the same section strike out the words "the same shall be canied to the ~eneral fund of the Treasury," and insert instead "the same shall be and remain a fund from which Congress may hereafter authorize the pay- ment of other claims thereon." 

.After the sixteenth section insert the two following sections, to wit: 

SEC.17. In ascertaining the amount of such los es, themt'morials, affidavits, depositions, and any other papers in the several cases of losses claimed respectively, now filed in the State Department, or official copies thereof, may be read in evidence: Provided, That no affidavit shall be read except where it appears to the satisfaction of 

the tribunal that the affiant cannot be produceu before it a8 a. witne a or hisJiestimony taken by commis ion upon interro~atorie ; and in the hearing of the calise 

any party claiming shall produce all booKS, papers, letters, and 'documents that 

may be called for oy a general description thereof by any opposing party, or satis· factorily account for their loss or non-production, or suffer such jo.dg:ment as is 

prescribed in section 15 of the act entitled "An act to establish the j uaicial courts of the United States," approved September 29, 1789; and. on the hearing of the cause, any competent evidence may be producorl, by either party, either viva voce or by deposition taken upon interrogatories; and for thi.s purpose depositions may be 

taken by either parly de bene, or the court may admit affidavits where it is satisfac· 

torily shown that the witness cannot be produced or his examination by interroga.- tories ant! eros ·examination cannot be had. 

SEc. 18. That in case any judgment is rendered by said court for indemnity for 

any loss or claim hereinbefore mentioned against the United States at the time of 

the c:riving of the judgment, the court shall, upon motion of the attorney or counsel 

for the claimant, allow ont of the amount thereby awarded, such reasonable counsel 

and attorney fees to the counsel and attorney employed bytheclaimantor claimants r espectively as the court shall determine is just and reasonable, as compensation for 

the services r endered the claimant in prosecuting such claims, which allowance shall be entered as part of the judgment in such case, and shall be made specifically payable as a part of said judgment for indemnification to the attorney or counsel, or both, to whom the same shall be adjudged; and a warrant shall issue from the 

Treasury in favor of the person to whom such allowance shall be made respectively{ 

which shall be in full compensation to the counsel or attorney for prosecuting such 

claim; and all other liens upon, or a signments, sales, transfers, either absolute o-r conditional, for services rendered or to fie r endered ahout any claim or part or parcel thereof provided for in this bill heretofore or hereafter made o.r done before such jud~Pllent is awarded and the warrant issued therefor, shall be absolutely null and 

voiu and of none effect. 

And the Senate agree to the same. BENJ. F. BUTLER, 

WM. P.FRYE, 

Managers on the part of the IIouse. 

FRED'K. T. FRELINGHUYSEN~ GEO. G. WRIGHT, '1', Managers on the part of the Senate. 

Mr. BUTLER, of 1\Iassa-chusetts. I ask the attention of the Housd 

for a moment w bile I explain this report. 

1tfr. Speaker, the committee of conference upon the Geneva award 

bill have a~eed firet to the payment of the uninsured losses by ves- sels for which the Geneva tribunal held Great Britain liable. Thoy 

have agreed to the Senate bill so far as it does not allow the insurers 

and underwriters to be paid except where upon stating the account 

of profit and loss it appears that the underwriters have incurred 

losses on the whole business. They have also stricken out from the 

Senate bill the provision that these losses shall be adjudicated in gold, 

finding that nearly impracticable. 

We have agreed to strike out what is known as the 5 per cent. 

clause, that is the clause providing that the Government should retain 

5 per cent. for doing the business-a sort of claim-agent fee-and 

only pay 95 per cent. of the judgment. Then we have inserted a clause that instead of covering the balance into the Treasuiy, it shall 

be allowed to remain as a fund from which Congress may hereaften 

pay other losses. We have agreed to a court of coinmission instead 

of the circuit court, and in order to prevent the great evil to be feared 

from a court of commission we have provided a-s did the House bill 

against all assignments for services, all contingent fees, and ht~.ve 

made 'provision that the court of commission shall determine the 

claims for services in each case. I believe these are all the provisions of the report and aJl the 

changes that have bee'n made. Upon some questions both Houses have agreed, to wit, that the uninsured losers by the cruisers for 

which the Geneva tribunal held Great llritain liaul~1 ~eluding the 

insurance companies that have suffered losses, on striking a balance, 

both have agreed. Upon the question of paying insurance companies beyond that both Houses have agreed. And the other amend~