I 

1879. OONG_RESSIONAL RECORD- HOUSE. 461 

junction, shows that he is willing to_ give a license to the defendant How can there be any doubt, as to the cases thus excruded, that the 

and will be satisfied with a proper, nsnal, reasonable license fee. effect of that paragraph is exactly that for which the Senator from 

Yet the bill immediately makes an exception from that rule, after Ohio insists! • establishing it a~ a. fair and just rule. After establishing the principle Mr. MA:TTHEWS. I think there can be ~o doubt about it, that in ·that that is all that ought to be claimed, where the patentee desires the very offer which I supposed, where a pafty litigant by his counsel 

to go into the market for the purpose of sale, they except it in all proposes to'show that there were profits made in the manufacture by eases where the defendant has made an actual profit from making for the use of a. patented article, which consisted simply in saving and ale, or selling, or using the thing patented, or the product thereof. in economy, that would b!' excluded by the court on the-,-ound that 

Why should that exception be made. If t.he plaintiff gets all that he no proof or evidence could be submitted on the point, unless it went 

would have asked from qthers for a license to do the thing, why should to the length of establishin~ "actual profits resulting from the makhe as against a party unlicensed recover any greater amount 'f If it ing for sale or selling the thing patented or the product thereof as be said that he ought to be permitted to do so because the defendant aforesaid." ' · may have willfulliY and knowingly violated the plaintiff's right, and The effect of the amendment which I propose as a substitute for so pttt him to the necessity and expense of maintaining it and assert- that language is to remove a.t least any doubt that may arise upon 

ing i~ the answer is that in another clause of the same section that that by declaring: case is provided for by the committee's bill, for in that case the court But evidence thereof may be admitted as tend!-n~ ~oprovewhatshall be deemed 

is authorized to award against the defeated party such sum, by way a reasonable license fee as compensation for the inningelllent. 

of counsel fees and expenses of suit, as it shall deem just and reason- I would be better satisfied, greatly better, to dispense with the use able in order to punish the defendant, if he be the one in default, for of the words "a' reasonable license fee" throughout the entire section, the willfulness, malioiousness, and vexatiousness of his conduct. But and to leave the rights of patentees, both in equity and at law, so far 

if any exception is to be made at all, why not, as inquired by several as the question of compell8ating them for infringement is concerned, 

Senators, make the exceptiQn as broad as the fact, instead of con:fin- to the general rule which now establishes the proper measure of darning Jt only to those cases where an a.ctual profit has beeu made from ages in every other case of violations of the rights of property, giving 

the manufacture or sale of the thing patented or the product thereof f to the patentee that in its fnllest extent, with all the benefit of com- For it is manifest, as has been already so fully pointed out as to obvi- mon-law rules and common-law evidence, and upon that, and beside 

ate the necessity of dwelling upon it again, that actual profits may it, and beyond it, and above it, the extraordinary relief by the writ 

be made just as much in violation of the rights of a patentee by those of injunction to secure him in the possession and enjoyment of his 

who do not manufacture for sale or sell the thing patented or the exclusive right; for after that has been broken and during the time 

product thereof, but who use it merely in their own llusiness and for the cause is pending, and when be is endeavoring t~ establish by 

their own purposes. evidence the fa-ct of the infrin~ement or the fa-ct of his exclusive 

The next proposition of the bill is to deal with those cases where right, he is like every other litigant in court under similar circumby a reasonable number of transactions in the market no market price stances; he is compelled from the nature of the case to accept that 

has been established for the use of the patented article, and there the which the law gives him in lieu of his exl}lusive right, and that is a provision of the bill seems to be perfectly fair; for it declares that in compensation in money for the temporary loss of it. It might as well 

such a case a license fee for the use actually made shall be deter- be said that it was a violation of the right of property to allow as mined from all the evidence in the case. If it had stopped there, it is done in my own State, and I believe in most others, in actions of 

would havesto:qrtedjust where I desire it to stop, for then there would replevin for personal property, where it is open to the plaintiff, if he 

be na limitation upon the }rind and the character and the amount chooses to make an affidavit which establishes in the :first instance his and the degree of the evidence which would be admissible for t.he right to t he writ, to take the defendant's personal property into his 

purpose of proving what was a fair compensation for this use. But possession and acquire a title to it as against the defendant and all 

the bill does not stop there. It goes on and in that connection de- the world, and by virtue of a transfer merely produced and wrought 

clares that- · by the bringing of his auit, leaving to the defendant not the right of 

No account of savings shall in any case be allowed ; and no evidence or account being restored to the possession of the identical property which in 

of the defendant's profits shall in any case be admitted, except as to actual profits the mean time may have been destroyed, but only to such compensaresulting from making for sale or selling the thing patented, or the product thereof tion as a jury may award, based upon. those rules of law and those as aforesaid. rnles of evidence which •in ail other cases of violations of the rights 

We exclude the evidence of such profits, and I take it that evidence of property have been established by the common law for the proof savings would be excluded under the same head, although perhaps tection not only of that plaintiff and defendant, but of us all. I agree 

nbt technically embraced in the words that introduce the sentence, that the right of a patentee under his patent is a right of property 

where only an account of savings is forbidden. But how can you which is secured by the Constitution, and it ought to be protected and 

prove the actual profits made by reason of the use of the invention enforced by the law, bnt exactly upon the 8ame principles and upon 

witpout sho.wing the saving and economy in the manufacture which the same rules of evidence, and his damages measured by the same have been produced by the use of the invented thing f Yet not only principles of law, as in other similar cases. is an account of such profits forbidden, but proof by way of evidence Mr. EDMUNDS. I move that the Senate proceed to-the considera.-

to establish what would be a fair amount for the defendant to pay is tion of executive business. 

forbidden. The other language which admits• other evidence as to . The :notion was a~reed ~; and the Senate proceeded to the con- the utility and advantage o! the. invention as one element only s1~erat10n of e~ecutive ~usm~. After o~e hour and twenty-two 

strengthens the conclusion wh1Ch excludes the evidence of profits and mmntea spen.t m executive sess10n the doors were reopened, and (at 

of savings. four o'clock and fifty-seven minutes p.m.) the Senate adjourned. 

Mr. BOOTH. . Will the Senator from Ohio allow me to interrupt 1 

'lA him for one moment f 

Mr. MATTHEWS. Certainly, sir. 

Mr. BOOTH. In line 36, on the fifth page, does the Senator con- strue the word "account" in the phrase "no-account of savings shall HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIV~S. in any case be allowed" as excluding from the testimony the amount 

the machine itself has saved over any other known device f I know WEDNEsDAY, Jwnuary 15, 1879. 

the intention of the committee was simply to shut out the account Th H technically of the savings and the making of that the measure of e ouse met at twelve o'clock m. Prayer by Rev. W. V. Tt:DOR, damages ; but certainly it was intended that the saving that the Methodist Episcopal Church South, Saint Louis, Missouri. 

machine made should be one of the elements that should determine The Journal of yesterday was read and approved. 

its value and enter into the determination of the license fee. MAL~AGEMENT OF 11\'"DIAN AFFAIRS. 

Mr. MATTHEWS. My answer to the Senator would be that per- Mr. O'NEILL, by unanimous consent, presented a memorial of the 

haps the conclusion which he combats might not be deduced from representatives of the Religious Society of Friends in Pennsylvania, 

that language alone. Taking the section altogether, as a court would New Jersey, and Delaware, remonstrating against the transfer of the 

do it, by the four corners, the inference is to my mind strong that management of the Indians from the Interior Department to the War 

when the offer was made upon an actual trial of a cause to show·the Department; which was referred to the Committee on Military .Affairs, economy by the use of the particnlar machine in the manufacture in and ordered to be printed in the RECORD. 

which it ·was used, it wonld be excludM, not because that wa-s an The memorial is as follows: 

attempt to take an account between the pa.rties, but because it was To the Senate and House of Representatives 

an attempt to show what were the actual profits, which is excluded of the United States in Oongress assembled: 

by the succeeding language. The memorial of the representatives of the Religious Society of Friends in P cnn- l'Jlr. CONKLING. Will the Senator allow me to remind him that he sylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware, respectfully representB that your memorialspeaks of the whole section 7 I suggest to him that he need not deal ists have ;regarded with deep interest and anxiety the proposition now pendinu before your body, to transfer the ma.nagement of the Indians within the United with anythin~ more than the paragraph at which the Senator from States from the Interior Department to the war Department, and they would 

California pomts his quejtion to be able to sary all that he has saii, respectfully but earnestly remonstrate against such-transfer for the following 

because following the words to which the Senator from California reasons: alluded are these : · The pMt history of the Indian nations of this continent proves that they are sus. ceptible to the softening influences of Kindly Christian treatment, and the Euro- And no evidence or account of the defendant's profits shall in any case be admit. pean discoverers found that as they were thus approached they almost invariably t ed, except as to actual profitB resulting from makihg for sale or selling the thing responded in a friendly and even generous spint. The peaceable policy pursued 

pat-ented, or the product thereof as aforesaid. by William P enn and the early settlers of Pennsylvania and Kew Jeriley avoided 
462 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 

all Indian wars in those colonies so long as it was adhered to, a veriod of seventy 

years; while the settlers of New Eugla.nd, who depended on military defense durmg the same period, were almost constantly embroiled in desolating contests with 

the aoori~es. . • We believe it is essential fqr the ultimate safety and the best interests of the Indians that they shouid be traihed in the habits and arta of civilization, and should 

be induced to exchange the nnsettled life of the chas~ fo~ the pra{)tice of agricnlt;. nre. It is evident that the necessary instruction to promote these ends cannot be 

looked for from men whose own training and liabits have been of an altogether different character. It is a fact admitted by most military officers familiar with 

gfu~~;~ ~~J!J!~~~l of~:?;~;~~! ~ed ~i:::.e ~ !o~!~~J:!f~~~~~ gress by the" Unite<l States Indian commission,'' dated "July 14, 1868," the view 

is expressed that " one of the finest physica1 types of man has ah-eady ber.ome seri- 'JDBly enfeebled, and that tribes originally com para.tively. pure are fast sin kin~ into a grossness .of vice which threatens their utter extinction. This latter evil, rn all 

its destructive extent, seems to be. an inevitable attendant of the f,resence of our troops in the Indian country. All these and many other disgraceful facts are at- tested by respectable officers of the Government, by a · large nnmber of Indian 

chiefs, and by many trustworthy pdvate citizens." It mDBt be further borne in 

mind that the misery thus produced is not confined to the immediate victims, but 

reaches in its consequences to generations yet no born. It is clear, therefore, to us that the proposed transfer would greatly interfere with the educational agencies now in operation, would retard the progress of the Indians, ana, we do not doubt, 

would caDBe a retrograde movement. The system of treatment inaugurated of late years, whereby men and women of 

:philanthropic views were en~aged to co-operate with tho Government in iostructrng and encouraging tho Indian tribes in literary knowledge, Christian morality, the arts of agricUlture and of ci"lilized life, we consider a. truly wise and just one, .and we trust it may be continued. Its practical value has been already proV"ed by the result among many of the tribes, where it bas been in operation for sevecil 

years. Some of these, who were as intractable and as warlike as any Indians on the oontinent, have yielded to the patient efforts of their agents and teachers uutil now they remain on and cultivate portions of. their reservations; many of them 

send their children to the schools and have begun to build hoDBes and raise stock. 

Should a similar line of action continue to be steadily pnrsried by tb.e Qi)vernment, 

there is abundant reason for believing tliat a few years would suffice to render the 

wildest tribes of the West peaceful, Iaw-abidin~, and settled in their mode of life, 

and eventually self-supporting and even DBeful citizens. Shall we now arrest the 

progress of the good work by a change of policy and the return to a system which 

has 1Iitherto proved defective and injurious 1 · Moreover, your memorial.ists would call attention to the manifest inconsistency of military rule with a system of republican go>ernmentlike ours, and to the determined opposition which our ancestors manifested to its exercise over them by the 

King of Great Britain. It was made a special subject of complaint in the pream- ble to the Declaration of Independence that large bodies of armed troops were quartered among tho colonists, and that the military was made independent of and 

superior to the c1vil power. .Among the self-evident truths asserted in that declaration were these: "That all men are created equal, and that governments derive 

their iust powers from the consent of the governed.' ' We are credibly informed 

that all the Indian tribes who have been lfl'anted an opportunity to express their sentiments on the proposed change have stgnified their decided objection to it, and 

have predicted that, if tried, it will operate to their serioDB disadvantajte. To 

~si;t~bo~: Go~:~=t ~~~"J:d. s would be a clear violation of the principles 

We believe the United States are bound by every consideration· of religion, honor, and self-interest, to re~ard the welfare of the feeble renrnants of the tribes 

who formerly occupied the wnole breadth of our country from the Atlantic to the 

Pacific, and who still retain a paramouut right to a fair share of its territory. R.egarding civil government as existing by divine appointment, wo believe it can only be ri.abtly administered so long as its accountability to the Most High is recognized, andtheimportantfactremembered that it is "righteousness " alone that truly " exaltetb a. nation," while on the other hand, national sins, like those of indJviduals, are visited by just retribution. Representing, aa the a;overnment of the 

United States does, a J_leople professing Chiistianity, we feel that its position as such can only be consiStently maintained as its general policy is in accordance 

with the benign precepts of the Gospel. It is.true the Indian may be regarded as a somewhat inco!Igruons element in our population, but while a knowledge of the arts of civilized life renders DB his SU:{Ierior in many respects, that fact atfords no warrant for our disregard of righta which are inherent in biro. Still further should 

the injuuctions of that holy religion which we profess forbid DB to follow him 

with those deeds of violence and reven2;e which, in his savage ignorance, he has 

been taught to regard as virtues. 

Otir true policy as a people enlightened by the teachings.oftbe Gospel should therefore manifestly be to extend to the Indian the same blessed influences which have 

thereby come t.o us; to gain his confidence by the strict performance of every prom- ise; to secure to him and his children a suitable and permanent home ; to instruct him as rapid1y as his condition will permit in useful arta and modes of life; to surround 

him by wholesome moral intlnences; to shield him from the contaminating contact with unprincipled men of our own race; in short,_ both by example an<l precept to impress upon him the fact that the habits of civilized life and the religion which we profess are better than his own. . We look with feelings of sorrow and abhorrence on the great injustice and suft'erinp; that have repeatedly been inflicted upon the aborigines of this land, and we may rest assured that those who violate the rights of others and oppress those who are unable to protect themselves will sooner or later experience the truth of the Script- i ure doolaration, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord." It was the 

belief in this truth that led Thomas J eft'eraon to exclaim: "I tremble for my co no- try when I remember that God is just and that His justice will not sleep forever ! " 

'Let DB, then, en~eavor to atone, so far as we can, for past in,justice toward the 

Indian nwe, for our breach of solemn treaties and the slaughter of their helpless women and children, by recognizing the obligations resting on a powerful people to protect and foster these weaK. and defenseless wards of the nation, and so fulfill the 

law of Chriat1 "\Vhatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to 

them." 

Taken from the minutes of a meeting of said representatives held in.. Philadelphia, first month, 6th, 1879, 

JOSEPH WALTON, Olerk. 

E~CUTIVE CQ:\IliUNICATIO:NS. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair asks consent of the Honse to make 

reference of a large number of communicatio11s from the Pepartments 

of the Government, which should go immediately to the respective 

committees that have asked for the information communicated. In 

consequence of the frequent adjournments of late the Chair has not 

had that opportunity. There waa no objection. 

BAL.L'iCES ON LOA..~ ACCOUNT, 

The SPEAKER laid before the House a. letter from the Secretary 

of the Treasury, transmitting--supplementary statement of balances 

on loan account standing to the credit of the Treasurer of the United 

States in national-bank depositories, J anua.ry 1, 1879; which -was referred to the Committee of Ways aud Means, and ordered to be 

printed. . 

WAR CLAIMS. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of the Treasury, transmitting, with the papers in each case, lists 

of 1,034 claims arising under a.ct of ·July 4, 1864, e~amined and 

allowed by the proper accounting officer since January 11, 1878; 

whick was referred to the Committee on War Claims. 

WASHINGTON CITY POST-OFFICE. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the House a letter from the Postmaster-General, relative to a building for the Washington City postoffice; which was referred to the Committee on Appropriations. 

CYRUS THO~AS. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of the Interior, recommending the passage of a bill for the relief 

of Cyrus Thomas, disbursing agent of the entomological commission; which was referred to the Committee on Appropriations. 

BE~JA.'\1L.~ ALVORD. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of War, transmitting report on House bill No. 5345, correcting 

the date of appointment of Benjamin Alvord as brigadier-general 

and Paymaster-General; which was referred to the Committee on Military Affairs. UNITED STATES PROPERTY. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of the Treasury, relative to the amount, character, and present 

value of real property belonging to the United States or in which it 

has an interest, which property was acquired ln the collection of 

debts due to the Government; which was referred to the Committee on Public "Buildings and Gr~mnds. 

WASHJNGTON .MO~lJME:NT. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the House a letter from the chair- man of the joint commission for the completion of the ·washington 

Monument in reference to the proposed modification in tho plan of 

the monument as prepared by Mr. W. W. Story; which was referred 

to the Committee on Appropriations. 

MILITARY WAGON-ROAD. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the House a; letter from the Secretary of War, transmitting Lieutenant Ruffner's report of the expenditure of $5,000 for the construction of a military wagon-road; which was referred to the Committee on Military Affairs. 

HOT SPRINGS RESERVATION. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of the Interior, in reply to a resolution of the Honse of Representatives of December 4, 1878, transmitting a report relative to the 

Hot Springs reservation in Arkansas; which was referred to the Com- mittee on Public Lands. 

HARBOR OF SAN DIEGO. 

The SPEAKER alio laid before the Honse a letter from the Secretary of War, transmittin~ copy of letter from Chief of Engineers 

recommending an approprtation of $1,000 for contingent repairs upon 

the harbor of San Diego, California; which was referreu to the Committee on Commerce. . AR:\IY BILL. 

The SPEAKER also laid. before the House a letter from the Secretary of War, transmitting acommunicationfrom the Paymaster-General concerning a revision of the estimates and the phraseology of the 

Army bill; which was referred to the Committee on Appropriations. 

LONGEVITY RATIONS. • 

The SPEAKER also laid before the House a. letter from the Secretary of War, transmitting a letter irom First Lieutenant C~ E. Nordstrom, Tenth Cavalry, asking an amendment to the bill for the support of the Army for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1879, be made 

providing that the time served in the Navy shall be cennted in com- puting service for longevity ;a.tions and retirement; which was re- ferred to the Committee on Military Affairs. 

ARMY ESTIMATES. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the Honse a letter from the Secretary of War, containing revised estimates for the subsistence and · other expenses of the Army for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1880; 

which was referred to the Committee on Appropriations. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of War, concerning estimates for subsistence·of the Army; which 

was referred to the Committee on Appropriations. 

SURVEYS OF THE 1\llSSISSIPPI,. RIVER. 

' The SPEAKER also laid before the Home a letter from the Secretary of War, transmitting letter from Major Comstock, Corp!J of Engineers_, relative to the duplication of War Department BUrVeys of the 

MissisSippi River by the . Coast Survey; which wa.s referred to the 

Committee on Appropriations, and order~d to be printed. 
.. 

.. 

1879. OONGRESSIONAL 'RECORD-HONSE. 463 

Bun.DING FOR STATE, WAR, .llo'D ~AVY DEPARTMENTS. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of War, relative to the east wing of the building for the State, 

War, and Navy Departments; which was referred to the Committee on Appropriations. WESTERX SURVEYS. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the HoU3e a letter from the Secretary of War, transmitting a letter from the Chief of Engineers respect- ing the changes recently recommended by the National Academy of 

Smences in regard to the surveys of the territory west of the Mississippi; which was referred to the Committee on Appropriations, and, on motion of Mr. PAGE, ordered to be printed. 

DUPLICATION OF WAR DEPARTIIENT SURVEYS. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the Honse a letter from the Secretary of War, transmitting a copy of a communication from Major 

Comstock, of the Corps of Engineertl, in regard to the duplication of 

War Department surveys; which was referred to the Committee on Appro-priations. · Mr. BURCHARD. I mo>e that that communication be printed. 

Mr. HEWITT, of New York. That is the same document which was ordered to be printed a moment ago. 

The SPEAKER. Then the order to print will not be made if upon 

examination it be found to be the same. 

AllERICAl."'\ COl\illERCE. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the Honse the resolutions adopted 

by the convention for the promotion of American commerce, held at 

Chicago on the 13th of November, 1878; which was· referred to the 

ComiiDttee on Commerce, and, on motion of Mr. REAGAN, ordered to 

be printed. SCRVEY OF ALLEGRE~ RIVER. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the House a letter from the Secre-

.tary of \Var, transmitting a copy of the report of Major W. E. Merrill, of the Corps of En~ineers, on the examination of the Allegheny 

River as far as French vreek; which was referretl to the Committee on Commerce. 

HARBORS OF SAN LUIS OBISPO, ETC., CALIFORNIA. · 

The SPEAKER also laid before the Honse a letter from the Secretary of War, transmitting a report upon the examination of the 

harbors of· San Luis Obispe, Santa Barbara, and San Bnenaventura, 

California; also a report upon the Humboldt River and Crescent City 

Harbor, California; which was referred to the Committee on Commerce, and, on motion of Mr. PAGE, ordered to bo printed. 

STRENGTH OF VNITED STATES ARliiY. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of War, transmitting a statement sb,owing the actual strength 

of the Army at a stated period in each year from the beginning of 

the ~vernment to the ;present time ; which was referred to the Committee on Military Aii'atrs. · 

FORT YU1\IA :\IILITARY RESERVATION. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of War relative ·to the sale of Fort Yuma military reservation, in .A,rizona; which was referred to the Committee on Military Affairs. 

EXPE:xDITURES OF WAR DEPARTIIENT. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of War, transmitting the report "bf the chiefs of the bureaus of 

the Department upon the expenditures of said Department; which was referred to the Committee on App1~opriations. 

CAPTAIN JOSEPH IRISH. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the. Honse a letter from the Secretal'Y of the Treasury relative to the proposal oithe King of Spain to ~nfer on Capt.:'l>in Joseph Irish, of the United States marine service, 

the Grand Cross of Merit; which was referred to the Co.mmittee on Naval Affilirs. ~ 

EMPLOYES L"'f NAVY DEPARTMENT. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the Honse a letter fl"Om the Secretary of the Navy, transmitting a statement of the civil employes of 

that Depart111ent during the year ending December 31, 187~, with the 

length of service and the amount of salary .Paid to each ; which was· referred to the Committee on Appropriatwns, and ordered to be 

printed. 

)liLITARY POSTS IN TEXAS. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the House a letter from the Secretru.·y ,of War, transmitting papers relating to tbe projected purchase 

of the sites of military posts in Texa.s; which was referred to the 

Committee on 1\filitary Affairs. 

THO:\I.AS P. BLAIR. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the Honse a letter from the Secre~ ta:¥ of War, transmitting papers in the case of Thomas P. Blair; 

wh1ch was ~ferred to the C'ommittee of Claims. 

, ORDER OF BUSIXESS. 

The SPEAKER. There is a large number of gentlemen who desire 

to have bills refe~d. To-day, under a suspension of the rules, is 

devoted to the consideration of bills reported by the Committee of 

Ways and Means. If the gentleman from New York, [Mr. WooD,J 

who is chairman of that committee, gives his consent, the Chair will 

recognize gentlemen who desire to introduce bills. 

Mr. WHITE, of Pennsylvania. I suggest that half an hour be devoted for that purpose. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Pennsylvania suggests that- half an hour be allowed for the introduction of bills for reference. 

Mr. BURCHARD. I would suggest that the Committee of Ways 

and Means need the whole day. 

The SPEAKER. That is in the nature of an objection. 

Mr. WHITE, of Pennsylvania. I trust there will be no objection. 

Mr. SPRINGER. We had no morning hour on Monday of thisweek, and we have had no opportunity of introducing bills. 

Mr. WOOD. I shall be willing to yield to gentlemen to introduce 

bills, but I will state that this is the first opportunity that the Committee of Ways and Means bas had for reporting, and we expect t() 

ne¢. all the time until half past four o'clock, and then have a recess for an evening session, and I do not feel that I am at liberty to yield. 

The SPEAKER. Then the Chair recognizes 'the gentleman from 

New York, in obedience to the order of the House. 

L~DIA...~ APPROPRIATIO~ BILL. 

1\Ir. SPARKS. Before the gentleman from New York proceeds, I 

J.sk to take from the Speaker's table the bill (H. R. No. 5534) making 

appropriations for the current and contingent expenses of the Indian 

department, and for fulfilling treaty stipul3tions with various Indian 

tribes, for the year ending J nne 30, 1880, and for other purposesp 

returned from the Senate with amendments, and that the same be 

referred to the Committ-ee on Appropriations. . The SPEAKER. Does the gentleman from New York yield for that 

purpose f 

Mr. SPARKS. Lt is only that we may refer the bill to a committee. 

Mr. WOQD. I will yield for that purpose. 

The bill was taken from the Speaker's table and, with the Senate 

amendments, referred to the Committee on Appropriations, and or- dered to be printed. 

REFU~U>L.~G THE PUBLIC DEBT. 

Mr. WOOD, from the Committee of Ways and Means, reported backP 

with a fa.vorable recommendation, the bill (H. B.. No. 5477) to authorize the issue of certificates of deposits in aid of the refunding of the 

public debt. 

The bill was read, as follows: 

Be it enacted, cf:c., That the Secretary of ttle Treasury is hereby authorized and 

directed to issue, in exchange for lawful money of the United States that may be 

presented for such exchangeJ certificates of deposit, of the denomination of $10, 

bearing interest at the rate ot 3 per cent. per annum, and convertible at any time, 

with accrued interest, into the 4 per cent. bonds described in the refunding act; 

and the money so received shall be applied only to the payment of the 5-20 bonds 

in the mode prescribed by said act, and he is authorized to prescribe suitable rules and regulations in conformity with this net. . 

Mr. KELLEY. By consent of the Committee ·of Ways and Means 

I desire to submit an amendment to this bill. I will state to the House 

that tho committee have not authorized my amendment further than 

to consent that it may be offered and considered as pending. 

.Ur. WOOD. The committee consented that the gentleman from 

Pennsylvania [Mr. KELLEY] should offer his amendment. If he insists upon it, it will be submitted to a vote of the House. It is the 

individual act of the gentleman from Pennsylvania himself. 

Mr. KELLEY. I have so stated to the Chair. If the Committe& 

of Ways and Means consent that a vote may be taken upon it, the 

amendment will thus be disposed of. If not it will be my duty when 

the previous question is called \a :w~k that it be voted down. 

The SPEAKER. The remedy is with the House. 

The amendment w:w~, to strike out the w9rds "at any time 11 after 

the word " convertible," and to insert after the words " accrued interest" the words :c after six months into lawful money and at any 

time;" so that the bill will read, if amended: 

That the Secretar.v of the Treai\ury is hereby authorized and directed to issue. 

in exchange for lawful money of the United States that may be presented for such 

exchange, certificates of deposit of the denomination of elo, bearing interest a.t the rate of 3 per cent. per annum, and convertible, with accrued i.D.terest, after six 

months into lawful money, and at any time into the 4 per cent. bonds described in 

the refunding act; and the money so received shall be applied only to the paymenll 

of the 5-20 bonds in the mode prescribed by said act,. and he is an.thorized to pre- scribe suitable roles and.regulations in oon}ormity with this act. 

l\Ir. WOOD. Before proceeding I desire io ask ·the Honse now t() 

consent that in case the committee shall not have exhausted it.s re- ports there shall be a recess from half-past four until half-past seven this evenincr. 

Mr. HALE. For the business of this committee alone! 

Mr. \VOOD. Exclusively. 

Mr. EDEN. The session of this evening to be fer purposes of legislation f 

The SPEAKER. To-day has been ass~ned exclusively for consideration of reports from the Committee of Ways aad Means. It is in 

the power of the ~jority of the House, of course, to take a recess at 

any time. 

Mr. BURCHARD. Let that matter be decided now. . The SPEAKER. The Chair will submit the question. The gen- tleman from New York [Mr. WooD] moves that the House take a. recess from half-past fonr o'clock this afternoon until ha1f-p~ seven 
. J 

464 OONGRESSIONAL 'RECORD-HOUSE. JANUARY 15, 

o'clock this evening, for the purpose of. continuing the consideration 

<>£·reports from the Committee of Ways and Means. 

The motion was agreed to. 

Mr .. WOOD. If J can get the attentjon of the Honse, I desire to 

call it especially to the very important bill now under consideration. 

lt is a bill that introduce substa.ntially·a novel feature into the 

management of the affairs of our Government so far as the producing 

classes are concerned. 

Mr. Speaker, this bill proposes to authorize the Secretary of the 

Treasury to issue certificates of deposit for as low a denomination as $10, and to receive the lawful J+toney of the Government therefor, 

which certificates shall draw· 3 per cent. per annum interest and be 

convertible at the plea~ure of the holder into bonds of the United 

States bearing 4 per cent. interest. The money thus received is to be 

used exclusively for the purchjise of the 5-20 bonds, which now draw 

6 per cent. interest. This bill differs somewhat from the recom- mendations of the Secretary .of the Treasury. He recommended a limitation of one year in which the certificates should be convertible, that the interest should be 3.65 per cent., and that United States 

notes or coin only should be received in payment for them. The com- mittee thought that, inasmuch as there might be some doubts as to 

what constituted coin, anything that was "lawful money" should 

be received for these certificates, and that there should be no limitation as to the time in which the holders should be entitled to the bond, 

and that 3 per cent. was a more convenient rate of interest and sufficiently high for·the objects in view. 

The principal object of the Treasury in favoring this measure is 

that it will facilitate the refunding into 4 per cent. bonds of those now outstanding bearing 6 per cent. It will of course have this I . 

effect. I shall refer more fully, before I close, to this advantage and 

its benefits. I do not attach to them, however, the chief merits of 

this proposition. ,It baa another, of far greater importance, which at 

this time should have much force with Congress. I refer to the i8suing of certificates in so small a sum as $10, and thus affordin~ to the 

poorer classes an opportunity to save beyond hazard or poss1l>le loss 

their surplus earnings. It will not only give a sure protection against 

loss, but seenre the interest on the principal also, upon which they can for all fntJire time confidently depend. We need not go far to 

find proofs of the necessity of some safer depository for the poor man's 

earnings than is now furnished by savings-banks. I am sure that 

every one has noticed· the large number of failures of the saYings- banks which have taken place within five years, and are yet occur- · rin~, and the consequent disasters to the poor people who hadintrustoo 

to tnem their small savings. Some of the largest of these institutions have made the most shameful exhibits of assets. As a general 

thing these institutions were organized for twofold purposes; ostensibly for philanthropic objects, but too frequently to give good salaries 

and employment to those who were intrusted with their ma.na~ement. 

Though these persons were in the main highly esteemed citiZens, in 

whom confidence should have been placed, yet experience shows that 

many of them were not strong enough in integrity to resist the opportunity of private speculation, nor of foregoing the advantages 

which the possession of large sums of other people's money gave them 

of individual profit. 

The last annual report of the Comptroller of the Currency furnishes some interesting statistics showing the total resources and liabilitie 

of t:ke savings-banks of the United States from 1874 to 1878. Some 

significant and pertinent facts ~ay be gathered from these tables: 

Aggregate 1·esources and liabilities of sa1:ings-banksjront 1874 to 1878. 

187~ 74. 1874-'75. 1875-'76. 187&-'77. 1877-'78. 

-banks. 674 banks. 686 banks. 675 banks. 663 banks. 

RESOURCES • 

f~:: ~: ~:~:~t;~ti·~-~~::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ~ ::::::::::::::::::::::: $315, 288, 088 $351, 336, 551 $373, 501, 243 $369, 770, 878 S408, 921, 601 168, 308, 332 181, 143, 206 164, 024, 477 114, 474, 163 88,192,337 

United States bonds ...••.•••••. .. . . ..•...••••.•••••.•..•..••••••••..•..•.•..•.• ·-·· •••. 66,414,629 83,206,272 108, 162, 624 115, 389, 880 129, 362, 890 State and other stocks and bonds ....................................................... .. 14.8, 456, 231 161, 334, 436 169, 801, 399 184, 116, 602 170, 155, 0":6 :Railroad bonds and stocks ... ......... : ..•••... -- . ..................................... . 17,981,807 20,690,901 23,992,313 24,586,503 21,752,650 

Bank stoek ..•••••••••••••........•.•....••..••••••...•........••..•••.••••••••••••••••. 29,545, on 30,508,7:12 33,267,494 24,571,531 34,703,256 

Real estate .............. ............................................................ --· 11,378,364 14,136,748 15, 540,384 21,037,426 29,952, 494 Other investments ..•••.•••.•....••••••...••••••• -.................................... . 8, 780,263 11,354, 781 oJ 20,730,050 18,135,673 18, 169, .863 

~~e:~:·b~~ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 931,959 1, 248,688 ~.013 1, 029,238 216, 690 18, 431,846 23,378,937 23,011,142 23,522,572 22,551, Wi! Ca.sb ............................. . ...... .. : ............................ ·-·· ••• ·-· ··-··· 15, TI5,134 17,858,.182 18,456,405 16,160,096 17, 469,,085 

------ TotaL . . ..... .................. ....................... ~ ........................ . 801, 231, 724 896, 197, 454 951, 353, 544 92-2, 794, 562 941, 447, 150 

=== = = LIABILITIE8. 

if[cl-;.~~;~:: ~: ~ ~~ ~: ~ ~: ~ ~ ~~ ~::: ~ ~:: :::: ~ :~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~:: ~: ~ ::::::: ~::: :~~ ~:::::: :::: ~: 759, 946, 632 849; 581, 633 891, 459, 890 866, 498, 452 879, 897, 425 12, 590,196 16,499,565 51,321, 033 43,835,885 43,892,503 

26,623,850 29, 072,493 5, 497,503 9, 200,778 6, 964,177 

2, 071,046 1, 043,763 3, 075,118 3, 259, 447 10,693,045 

----------- --~-- -------- Total •. .... . ..•...... : ................. ~· ••..••..••..•••.••...•..•.•••. .•....•.. 801, 231, 724 896, 197, 454 951, 353, 544 922, 794, 562 941, 447, 150 

It will be seen that the aggregate deposits held by-·the savingsbanks of the United States in 1877-'78 were $879 897,425. To secure these deposits these banks held aggregate nomin~ resources of $941,-

441,150; but when the nature of these resources is examined it will 

appear that more than two-thirds must necessarily be of doubtful 

value. As for instance $408,921,601 are loans upon real estate. Who can say of what real value these loans are f So far as the city of New York 

is concerned it is quite certain that if an atteJD.pt should be made to realize upon loans made upon real estate three or four years ago not over one-fifth of the amount loaned would be obtained. The tables from 

Wjhichl gatherthese:figuresstatethatof these resources are $88,192,:337 

of "loans on other securities." Who can tell how much would be re- turned of this if liquidation should be forced 7 Again, there are $,170,155 076 of "State and other stocks and bonds," and about $100,00{r,ooo equally uncertain in value. Thus it will be seen that it 

is altogether probable that of the $941,447,150 nominal resources, 

about $767,000,000 would, if forced upon the market for conversion, 

yield a. much less sum in cash. 

Now, if these depositors held the obligations of the Government no such contingency could exist. They would have absolute security, 

convertible at any moment into cash, with any addition which the 

accumulated interest earned would afford. This would not be the 

only advantage. Every holder of these certificates would become if 

possible a better citizen and more devoted to the unity and welfare 

of the Government. He would have a direct and practical impulse 

prompting hiB "love of country." Having thus become one of its 

creditors, he would feel the necessity of protecting its interests and 

of promoting its advantages and aiding in its success. There can be no question that one of the principal causes of the great wealth ex- isting among the working classes of France has been in consequence 

of the opportunities afforded by the government fol" the safe deposit 

of their earnings in the rentes or funds. - Under the French system, the lowest obligation issued by the government is for one hundred francs-about 20; and nearly all the 

spare money of the producing classes finds this lodgment and no other. 

No losses happen to them. They feel encouraged to work and to save, 

which they do to an extent beyond any other persons of like condition on the globe. It is true there are other reasons which conduce 

t9 their prosperity. As a people, the French produce the luxuries 

which are of universal consntnption, while they coneume little of 

these themselves. They buy le.Ss and sell more than others; the sur- plus is hoarded, safely kept by the government, and used not only for 

its own necessities but for the benefit of those who have made it their 

depository-:-the custodian of their reliance in old age, sickness, or re verses. The statesmen of France comprehended the advantages of 

this.system a century ago. Often has its wisdom been shown. No 

better illustration can be found of this fact than the late Franco-Ger- man war gave. At the close of that war France lay at the mercy of 

Gennany, a conquered empire in possession of the enemy. She purchased her ransom by the payment of an exaction of a thousand million of dollars, which was demanded in coin, to be paid at once, without delay. 

She did not murmur, hesitate, nor ask time for consideration. She 

called upon her own people for succor and met the indemnity demanded promptly, not by borrowing of foreign governments or bankers, nor by syndicates, but by the subscription of her own people who came at once forward with their earnings·and savings; the industrial 

classes being the chief contributors. A popular loan was inaugurated by the government, and the working men and peasantry drew 

from their hiding-places nearly the whole of the indemnity. French 

thrift, industry, and patriotism thus gave the government ita freedom. The most astonishin~ feature in this home .sup.\)lY of such an immense sum and most of 1t from the .working class, 18, that the industries had been paralyzed by the war, that the people had been 

subjected to a severe trial which had crippled their usual resources and caused widespread and general discouragement. 

But though conquered, they were not subdued nor destitute. Their 

wages had been already larg(\ly invested in the ?·entes. Thousands 

" 
1879 . CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 

.of millions of francs had been before that stowed away in the Safekeeping of the government, and every Frenchman felt that all he 

had should follow, if only to save his previous investments. Thus it 

is that the debt of France is held by Frenchmen ; it is distributed 

among the people; the government is the national savings-bank; 

311d it is proverbial that of all Europeans the Frenc:;h are most attached to their own country, and most reluctant to give it up for 

any other. Now, why should not Americana go and do likewise f 

Why should we not make any sacrifice to instill love of country fllid 

national pride and unity and the general happiness and fraternity of 

the whole people under one government f I admit there is a differbnce 

in the peculiarities of Americans and Frenchmen, and that we cannot 

expect such great results as have been shown in France from the 

adoption of a like system here-to that which I now propose. We are -extravagant and speculative, fond of travel and adventure, and that 

hoarding of savings too frequently is wasted in seeking lal'ger gains 

and a higher socfal position. Not so the Frenchman; he is closely 

economical; with few expensive personal wants; avoids speculation, 

.and rarely emigrates, thinking no other country is equal to "La 

belle France.'' 

We have already made considerable progress in the retention of our funded debt at home, and in its more general distribution among the 

people. The followin~ highly in~Jtrnctive and suggestive facts are pertinent to this questiOn. At my request, the Treasury Department 

has vouched for the accuracy of the figures, and they may therefore 

be accepted as official : At last the Treasta-y officials have arrived at an approximate conclusion as to who are the takers and holders of the new loan. There are two classes of these 

bonds, coupon and registered. The following table gives the number, denomination, and amount of 4 per cent. registered bonds outstanding to date : 

Denomination. 

850 .•...•.... ·- ·-·---.. ·-----·----- ..•• -- ......•..... ·- •. 100 .........•.•.....•.........................•.......•.. 500 ...........•.. ... · .....•..•...•......•......... ·••····· 1, 000 ....•....................•.•.•••.•..•......... . ... .... 5,000 ................•..••..•......•...•..••....•...•...... 10,000 ..•........••... --- ..........•...•.... ····•· .......•.. 20, ,000 . ......... ······ .......•.....•....•..• ··-············· 50, 000 ... -.- ......................... .. -- .. ----- ·-----------

Number. Amount. 

6, 291 

27,552 

13,090 

21,806 

3,698 

4, 732 

202 

564 

$314,550 

2, 755,200 

6, 545,000 

21,806,000 

18,490,000 

47,320,000 

4, 040,000 

28,200,000 

Total................................................ . .. .. . . . . . 129, 470,750 

The following is the total amount, number, and denomination of coupon 4 per cent. bonds sold to date : 

Number. Total. 

$50 each .................... , ............................ . J.OO each ....................................... ~--· .. ··--. 500 each ................................................. . 1, 000 each ...................... ........................... . 

31,002 

93,067 

20,314 

31,653 

$1,550,100 

9, 306,700 

10, 15'1', 900 

31,653,000 

Total.................................. ............ .. . ....••... 5'2, 6€6, 800 

There is no way to ascertain how many holders these are distributed among. The best estimate that Treasury officials can make, however, is as follows: 

Number.of holders of $50 bonds ................................ : ........... 25,000 

Number of holders of $100 bonds ........•.....•..•......••.......•......... 75, 000 

Number of holders of $500 bonds.. . . . . . . . • • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15, 000 

Number of holders of $1,000 bonds ............ ~ .... .•.....•................ 25,000 

So that it is vrobable that the $52,666,800 of the coupon bonds are held by 140,000 

different indiVIduals and corporations. This indicates a wide distribution. 

Thenumberand character of holders of registered bonds, however, can be ascer· tained from Treasury books and is as follows (up to time of payment of October 

interest:) 

meam 

::s~,.!:oj 

8~~ ~ o..O 

bl) p.,'+-t'd 

·~ ~~>-,§ 

Q)~~ ~ ~ 

Holders of $50 .••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••.•••.•••••••• 

Holders of $100. ...•.••••••• ....••••••.. ..•.•. •••.•. 1 

Holders of over $100 and not over $500.............. 6 1 

Holders of over $500 and not over $1,000 . . . . . . . . . • . . 4 ....... . Holders of over $1,000 and not over $5,000 . • • . . . . • • • 13 13 

Holders of over $5,000 and not over $10,000 • • • . . . . . . 8 20 

Holders of over $10,000 and not over $20,000 . • • . . • . . 3 30 

Holders of over $20,000 and not over $100,000 .••••• : 1 191 

Holders of over $100,000 .. .......... .. ..••.••••••••• .... 60 

;are a,; 

=~§ -

p.,<Odl ~ 

..o"d ~ 

~~~ ~l>Q 

---

228 

492 3,156 

3,268 

5, 787 

1, 724 

808 

880 

144 

3 

0 

E-l ---

228 

493 

3,163 

3,272 

. 5, 813 

1,752 

841 

1,072 

204 

· Totals ..•...•... ····-··················-~···" 36 315 16, 487 16, 838 

It will be observed· that only'thirty-six of these bonds are held by foreigners, while nearly seventeen thousand are held at home. This is the most striking illustration yet adduced to show how entirely the American debt is finding its way into 

American hands, thus keeping the money at home. It seems almost incredible that 

of nearly seventeen thousanlf bonds oniy thirty-six are held hi foreign countries, 

but such is the fact. 

We may therefGre not accomplish all that the French have, with a people so much more fitted to the system, but with our greater energy, 

quickness, and facilities for the acquisition of gain we need it much 

VIII-30 

more. 'l;he Government, therefore, should furnish it. One objection 

has been urged against the proposition to which I shall refer. It is 

that these certificates not being convertible into bonds before amount 

ing to $50, which is the lowest United States bond issued, if the holder 

shall wish to use the money before having obtained that sum he will 

be forced to go to money-brokers with it and submit to a shave 

There would be some force in this objection if the certificates bore no interest; but a-s they do bear interest from the day they are issued1" 

and this interest is accumulating every day afterward, of course the 

certificate is enhancing in value all the while. If compelled to part 

with it the holder would of course get the benefit of its increased 

value, or at least suffer no loss. Another objection has been urged, 

namely, that these certificates could pass as currency. Well, suppose 

they do; what harm is done f who will suffer 't Certainly not the 

Government, and certainly not the holder. 

I am not alarmed lest some injury should be done by a free circulation of paper money. I prefer paper as a circulaj;ing medium if it is 

what on its face it purports to be, and am wil.lllig that the Government should furt;tish it if at the pleasure of the holders it is corfvert 

ible into the universally recognized standard of value throughout 

the civilized world. I am ready to go further, and admit I should 

prefer that the Government should furnish such a circulating medium 

to the exclusion of all other authority to do so. The sole power to 

issue money should rest in the Government itself. I think it unwise 

to support a dual money-creating authority, especially when it may 

frequently happen that values may be unsettled in the differences 

which may possibly occur. · Another objection has been urged, that this system would not be 

successful in conse40ence of the want of col:lfidence of the people in 

the Government itself, growing out of the interference of politicians, 

which endangers tile public credit. There is no foundation for this 

fear. Our Government is one of the most stable in the world. If the 

people of France have confidence in a government like their owu which has vibrated between an imperial despotism and a licentious re public for the past one hundred years-having been a kingdom under a weak monarch, an empire under a despot, and a republic under a military chieftain, all within a half century-how much greater is 

the security offered in this country where not only our form of con stitution but the theory, principles, and essence of our Government 

have been steadily and continuously maintained from the begin:aing f 

It is true there are men who would introduce wild schemes of finance 

and endanger the public credit, but the strong vigorous common sense of the people, the fountain from which all political power emanates, as it has in the past so it will in the future carry the nation onward 

in its regular and steady course, maintaining alike the public honor 

and the public faith. 

Thus far I have referred only to the advantage of this bill, if it 

should become a law, to the poorer classes as a secure . depository for 

their surplus earnings, and such others as choose to avail· themselves 

of it. I shall now refer to the benefit it will confer upon the Government. One of the chief burdens which the people have had to labor 

under since the close of the war has been the high rate of interest 

which their obligations had to bear. This source of expenditure has 

borne a relation to the total expense of the Government truly alarm 

ing. The total ordinary expenditures of the United States for the 

year ending June 30, 1878, was $236,964,326.80, and of this aggregate 

there was paid for interest on the public debt $102,500,874.65 or nearly 

one-half. The estimated interest on the Gdvernment securities for 

the present fiscal year will be about $97,000,000. • One of the principal causes for this enormotts outlay is the high rate which the ou~tanding bonds now carry. An earnest effort is being made to call in the 

six percents and to replace them with four percents. Much progress 

has been made in this direction. About $1007000,000 has been thus re :Mmded within a year. This bill will reach a new class of bondholders 

who have heretofore used the savings-banks and other methods of in 

vestments. If the whole amount of the present outstanding obliga 

tions or bonds now redeemable were converted into four percents, 

there would be ~ saving to the Government of near $9,000,000 a year 

in interest. This reduction of 2 per cent. in interest would be equal 

to one-third of the t-otal sum paid for interest, which is at present 

about equal to one-third of the entire revenues of the Government. 

This reduction in the expenditures would warrant a corresponding 

reduction in taxation, and to this extent would relieve the industries 

of a portion of their present onerous burdens. It is not necessary to 

argue in favor of any proposition which will tend to the a-ccomplish 

ment of this object. A judicious reduction of the public expendi 

tures is at all times desirable, and needs no defense, especially when 

it is accompliShed in a way which instead of affecting injuriously the 

industries of the people will promote them. I am sure every good citizen will cheerfnlly sustain it and support Congress in its enactment 

There are other advantages of lesser importance. Tlie Secretary, 

under existing laws, is allowed to expend, in the work of refunding, t of 1 per cent. I am glad to bear testimony to the fact that he has 

not exhausted this allowance, so far as the 4 per cent. bonds are con cerned. The total amount of such bonds issued down to Jan nary 1 

of this year was $203,585,450. One-half of 1 per cent. on t1tis sum would be $1,017,927.25; whereas he officially states that the expense had been only $779,250.29, with $62,511.98 yet unpaid on that account, 

which will show a deduction of $176,164.98 from the t per cent. allowed by law. That portion of the debt wl1tch wMI be refunded 

.· 

' 
II 

. 

-466 . CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. JANUARY i5; -

. through this agency will oost nothing except the expense of printing. 

This will be a. saving to the Secretary of no incqnsiderable sum. The 

power is given to the Secretary to provide rules and regulations to carry the act into effect. Much of the detail of the execution of the 

law moat necessarily be left to him. He will, of course, use exist: ing public officers throughout the Unit-ed States as agents for tbt~ 

issuing of the certificates and for receiving and remitting the sums subscribed for them, and create such rules as will the be~ter enable 

the people to reap the advantage of it and facilitate the refunding 

through this process. With these remarks I submit the bill to the House, and will yield 

to my colleague on the committee, the gentleman from Pennsy 1 vania, 

[ Mr. KELLEY.] 1 

Mr. KELLEY. How long does the gentleman yield to me V 

Mr. WOOD. How long does the gentleman require Y . Mr. KELLEY. I shall require but a few mirmtes. I have no prepared remarks. 

Mr. WOOD. I should like to have an unders-tanding a.s to the 

time. 

Mr. KELLEY. I desire to accommodate the gentleman. I do not 

think I will take longer than the gentleman may think is proper. 

1\fr. 'VOOD. · In justice to other gentlemen of the Committee of 

Ways and Means, I must ask the gentleman to~ame the time. 

Mr. KELLEY. Say twenty minutes. 

Mr. WOOD. - How much time have I occupied 1 

The SPEAKER. Thirty-two minutes. - Mr. BANKS. I hope the gentleman from New York will allow me five minutes, rather to ask for some information on the subject than 

to make an argument of my own. 

Mr. WOOD. The balance of the hour will be fairly divided: 

Mr. STEELE. Is this debate to be confined to a few persons ? If it 

is it is a --disgrace to the le~slation of the country. 

Mr. BANKS. How much time remains Y 

The SPEAKER. Twenty-eight minutes remain of the hour of the 

gentleman from New York. But the debate is not necessarily confined 

to one hour nor is it necessarily confined to members of the committee. 

Mr. BUTLER. I hope not. 

The SPEAKER. The House has now entire control of the subjec-t. 

Mr. KELLEY. Mr. Speaker, this bill is one of vast importance to 

' the people of the country, especially to economical and 1Jhrifty poor 

people. It has been heralded to them as proposing a national savingsbank, a safe substitute for institutions such as those by which they hav~ since 1872 lost so many tens of millions of dollars. 

The gentleman from New York, [Mr. WooD,] speaking as chairman 

of the committee that reports the bill, tells us that it offers to this class 

of citizens a national savings-bank in which their funds will be safe. · What are the objects of savings-banksf They are to accept small 

tleposits from poor people, who have no means of preserving with 

safety their little surplus of earnings, and to gi.ve them therefor a low 

rate of iuter~st in order that the funds thus confided to the bank may 

be loaned on securities that are absolutely safe. A savings-bank is a contrivance to enable the laboring people-men, women, and children-to lay by a small sum each week, ea-ch month,.each quarter, or each year to provide for sickness, loss of employment, or any other 

calamity that may require them to draw upon or exhaust their sav-

~~ ·. 

The character of the deposits has been described in characterizing 

the objects of such banks. They come to the bank in driblets. There are dime savings-banks; there are dollar ·savings-banks; there are s~vings-banks that will not accept over $200 or $500 as a total deposit 

from one depositor. And then there are mR.Ily specul'ative concerns that bold themselves out as savings-banks, and they have failed by 

the thousand, ruining those who had intrusted their savings to them. 

The very purpose of these depositors is to pnt their money where it 

will be safe, an_d where they can obtain it on demand or after certain 

specified notice, often ten days, sometimes two weeks, and in some States with an alternate right of requiring them .to wait sixty days 

in case of a run. The principle of a savings-bank; is safety and 

prompt return of deposits on conditions predetermined. 

Examine this bill in view of these purposes of a savings-bank and 

you will find that the only provision which characterizes a savingsbank is that the Government will receive deposits as low as $10. 

There is no other. In this bill the United States Government proposes to engage the laboring people of the country in a game of 

uhance, the law of which is to be "Heads it wins; tails they lose." 

::;) laboring-man ifan have benefit from an advance in the price of 4 

per cent. bonds. These bonds are being issued at par, and will con- tinue to .be issued at par so long as there is a 5-20 or 10-40 bond to be 

exchanged. Suppose a laboring man or woman should be fortunate 

enough to get a 4 per cent. bond at $50, it cannot improve in value; 

for the Government competes with it by issuing 4 per cent. bonds at 

par. These bonds may fall below par in the market; and Government circles apprehend the possibility that they will go below par 

when ever business and enterprise shall revive. The New York Times 

of a date within the past week has admonished its readers of 1lhis 

possibility. The most conservative papers of the country present it 

not as a thing to be wished for, but as a thing possible and to be 

dreaded. 

But, sir, this bill m:tkes no provision for the pa.yment of interest to 

the frugal man or ~oman who has loaned the Government $10,$20, 

$80, or $40. The only r~demption it offers to people who deposit for 

temporary safety is a 4 per cent. bond to be converted into cash at 

the stock boa.rd. It is to turn this class of people who may be fortunate enough to be able to invest $10, $20, $30, $40, or $50 into game 

for the Shylocks that concentrate about the stock e-xchanges of the 

country. Look at the terms of the bill in regard to the ten-doUar cer- tificates !t proposes to issue. It reads thus: 

That the Secretary of the Treasury is hereby authorized a-nd directed to issue, in exchange for Ia.w:ful money of the United Stat€s that ma-y be presented for such exchange, certificates of deposit, of the denomination of 10, bearing interest at the> rate of 3 per cent. per annum, a.nd convertible at any time, with ~LCCrued interest,_ into the 4 per cent. bonds described in the refunding act. 

.Mr. BUTLER. Will the gentleman yield to me for a question ' · l\Ir. KELLEY. Yes, sir ; but if the gentleman will permit me l 

would rather pursue my argument without in~rrnption. 

Mr. BUTLER. Very well. - lli. KELLEY. Now mark you, the holder of $10, $20, $30, or ~ 

is to be allowed accrued interest when he gets a bon.d; he is to re- ceive none in the mean while. Now, the holder, the man or woman who 8as believed he or shA could save $50, and under that belief invested $10, and then loses employment by any circumstance, sickne~ 

or other, will have the happy consciousness that if be or she cannot 

make _up $40 more that by the mere accretion of 3 per cent. interest 

be or she can, at the end of one hundred and thirty-three years and 

four months, get back her or his deposit, and thenceforth be entitled 

to 4 per cent. interest. That is the only repayment of deposits proposed by the United States when it is about to open a savings-bank 

for its poor laboring people. 

There is an alternative: the certificate may be sold. Oh, yes, and 

what will a ten-dollar certificate at 3 per cent. bring when a. fiftydollar bond at 4 per cent. payable quarterly can be had at par. Some 

philanthropist may buy from a sick servant or workingman the scrip 

and pay par for it; but the laws of tra<le will put these certificates. 

away below par whenever they have to be sold on the marketh 

Thrifty people who can get together $20 and no more may, if com- pelled to nse their savings, take the risks of the market in an inland 

town or at the stock-board of a city or enjoy the happy consciousness. 

that at the end of fifty years they will be entitled to a bond. This 

will be a very safe investment for the temporary deposita of the laboring poor! If $30 has been invested and the depositor shrinks from 

the loss involved in a sale in open market, he will be consoled by 

the conscimisness that twenty-two and two-ninths years will briJ:?.gabout the day when the Government will re:frul.d his savings in a bond. 

With $40 invested the depositor must either take the risk of the-stockboard or the village Shylock, or wait eight years and four months. 

This is the savings-bank to be offered t.o the laboring poor of America, by their magnanimous and generous Government! 

Mr. Speaker, my amendment proposes to remedy these hacdsliips by 

striking from line 8 the words '' at any time," and by the insertion or other words to make the clause read, " convertible with accrued interest after six months in to lawful money; and at any time into the 4 per 

cent. bonds described in the refunding act." 

This is a provision by which, if calamity overtakes a depositor, re- demption may be had after six months, and~ per cent. interest beallowed for the mo•ey while it had remained on deposit. 

How does this bill treat wealthier citizens, those who can subscribe 

to 4 per cent. bonds as was done to the amount of ~3,000,000 yester- day; $11,000,000 on another day, and $8,000,000 on still another. 

These poor people who are investing these millions of dollars ~e not 

to have 3, but to receive 4 per cent. They are not to be postponed for· the collection of their interest one hundred and thirty-three years and ·four months, or fifty years, or twenty-two years, or even eight years, as the working-people may. They are to be paid 4 per cent. quarterly 

in coin. 

I have shown what the bill offers the poor. Let us see what it offers 

banks and millionaires. Four percent., payableq uarterly, will double 

itself in seventeen and one-half years; 3 per cent. will double itself 

in thirty-three years and four months. "The poor we have always · with us," and therefore we need not care about paying them their 

money or their interest. They are unworthy of consideration, useless. 

appendages to a republic. There are but few rich, and we ought to 

take proper care of them; for without them and their capital and 

their enterprise the nation would go to the dogs. Do we not all 

know that they, few as they are, pel!oform all the labor and produce an 

the wealth of the country Y At least, is not such a fair inference from 

the provisions of this bill 7 _ It will be observed that I use the language "lawful money" in my 

amendment. Gold is no longer merchandise; it is part of the lawful 

money of the country. When years ago I submitted a proposition 

kindred to this, it was said that I proposed a double back-action, interconvertible system by which bonds worth nothing should be issued 

and be redeemable in paper worth nothing. Sir, at that time the 

paper-paying bonds of the Governm_ent rated day by day and year by 

year h1gher£han any coin-paying bonds of the Government. But now I propose that these certificates shall be convertible with accrued interest after the end of six months, hy any unfortunate holder who. 

cannot raise the fnll sum of $50 in gold, silver, or paper, the lawful 

money of the United States. Without this amendment the bill proposes a snare and a trap to the poor, and is in my judgmentadisgrac& 

to theGovernment. Withititwill be safe for the people and beneficent in its effects upon the funding operations of the Government. 
 

1879. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. .467 

1\Ir. MILLS. Is it too late, Mr. Speaker, to make the point of order 

that this bill should receive its first consideration in the Committee 

of the Whole t 

The SPEAKER. The Chair thinks it is ; but at any rate that point 

would not interfere with the consideration of the bill. To-day was assigned, under a suspension of the rules,- for the consideration of 

bills from the Committee of Ways and Means, and the gentleman 

from New York [M:r. WooD] would have the right to move to go into · Committee of the Whole for the consideration of this bill in the. same manner as the Committee for the District of Columbia have that 

privilege on the day assigned for the·consideration of their business. 

Mr. SPRINGER. Would not any member have the right to move to go into Committee of the Whole for the consideration of this bill i 

The SPEAKER. Any member recognized for that purpose would 

have that right. 

Mr. · SPRINGER. I desire to be recognized for that purpose. 

The SPEAKER. The floor at present is under the control of t~e 

gentleman from New York, [Mr. WooD.] 

Mr. BANKS rose. The SPEAKER. The Chair understands that the gentleman from 

New York has yielded to the gentleman from Massachusetts, [Mr. 

BANKs.] There are eight rilinntes remaining of the hour of the gentleman from New York. 

Mr. BANKS. I shall occupy but a few minutes. 

.Mr. BURCHARD . . I shall ask the Speaker for the floor at the ex- piration of the hour. · The SPEAKER. At the expiration of the hour, if the previous 

question is not demanded, or if, being demanded, it should not be 

sustained) the Chair would _recognize tho opponents of this bill, if 

there be such on the floor-first members of the Committee of Ways 

and Means who may be opposed to the bill, if there be any such, and 

then other members of the House. 

Mr. BURCHARD. I oppose the bill so far as to desire to amend it. 

The SPEAKER. That is opposing the report of the committee, of 

course. Mr. SPRINGER. The amendment offered by the gentleman from 

Pennsylvania is not a part of the report of the committee. 

The SPEAKER. It was allowed by the committee to be offered. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I ask the gentleman from New York to allow this 

bill to go to the Committee of the Whole, where it can be 'ilioroughly 

discussed. It is one of the most important measures that has been 

proposed in this House, and it ought not to be passed here under the 

previous qnestionl with one hour for discussion, apportioned out by 

the chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means. 

The SPEAKER. The House has its remedy. The majority, if they 

think further discussion is desirable, have only to vote down the demand for the previous question after it has been made. Everything 

is within the control e£ the majority. · Mr. SPRINGER. I give notice, then, that at the proper time I will 

make that motion. 

Mr. BRIGHT. Js this discussion going on in the morning hour, 

permit me to inqwre 'I - The SPEAKER. There is no morn1ng hour to-day. 

Mr. BANKS. I trust this will not come out of the few minutes 

allowed me. The SPEAKER. It will not. 

Mr. BANKS. ~r. Speaker, it is not my purpose to dissent frpm the 

general statements of the gentleman from New York, [Mr. WooD.] The 

principle of the bill of tlfe committee as reported is undoubtedly a cor- rec~ one. But what I wish to call attention to is the possible immediate effect of the operation of this measure upon one of the important 

interests of the country, affecting nearly all the States and very materially the country at large. There is no doubt the purchasers of these 

bonds will have good security, but it is not absolutely certain. I do 

not oppose the principle of the bill. On the contrary, if the chair- man of the committee or other gentlemen can explain the .subject 

to which I refer, I will cheerfully vote for it. Depreciation of property and the depression of the industries of the countqr do not arise 

from savings-banks. On the contrary, when any question is made in 

regard to our prosperity uni versa! reference is made to the extent and 

number of deposits in savings-banks. They amount to many hun- . dred thousand in number, to millions even, and their deposit-s are over $850,000,000. I am told the depositors number tw~imillions or more. Their liabilities are nine millions and a half. 

The law describes and limits securities to be taken for loans from 

savings-banks and for the money of depositors. They are not allowed 

to take whatever securities they may please, bnt the law specifies 

what securities shall be taken. The securities accepted are those 

required by law; therefore, as the ~entleman has stated, and cor- rectly, no doubt, there are liabilities of real estate alone to nearly 

$500,000,000. He has stated, further, with a reasonable degree of 

accuracy, that the depreciation in real estate is one-half its value, 

a.ild in some instances more than that. If, then, this bill shall go into 

operation, the inevitable-first effect of it will be to induce depositors 

to withdraw their deposits from the savings-banks, and consequently 

the very next effect will be inevitably to induce persons having money 

to invest to make that deposit with the United States in the shape of 

these bonds rather than with the savings-banks. This will-compel the savings-banks to call in their loans and foreclose the mortgages -

given to them, and foreclosure of those mortgages wUl throw real 

estate upon the market and produce still greater depreciation of 

property and business. 

Mr. WOOD. Will the gentleman permit me to remind him that 

these securities of deposit bear but 3 per cent. interest, while on the 

contrary savings-banks allow 5 per cent., and that where savingsbanks are solvent and retain the confidence of their depositors, it isnot natural to believe they will give up 5 per cent. interest and take 

3 per cent. interest. This bill, therefore, would not inflict any damage of the kind suggested by the gentleman from Massachusetts upoll- any solvent savings-bank in the-country. 

Mr. BANKS. I was about to notice that myself. The interest proposed by this bill upon the bonds to be issued under it is 3 percent. 

The savings-banks pay, as the gentleman has suggested, 5 per cent. 

in some instances, but frequently not more than 4 per cent. Gentle- men sitting around me say that in the States they represent they pay 

but 4 per cent. But suppose it to be 5 per cent, as the gentleman 

has stated. The effect of the bill will be to take from the savingsbanks the additional deposits which might be made upon which the 

banks must rely to nieet increased liabilities and withdraw to a con- siderable extent the money already deposited in the savings-banks, 

and the mortgages on real estate held as securities will be foreclosed, 

and the real estate suddenly pnt npon the market at this tii:ne amounting to 500,000,000 and more would of course depress the securities 

of every savings-bank in the country, and possibly deprive them of 

the power to pay any considerable proportion, or at least the whole 

of tbe arpount of the deposits called for. 

The gentleman has stated that the number of persons investing in 

the bonds of the conn try amount to over sixteen thousand. U ndon btedly that number will be largely increased. Generally they are capitalists, while depositors in savings-banks belong to the poor people 

of the country, and their deposits are madeinsmallsums. The bank 

for which I am speaking, on the representation made to me, receives. 

five-cent deposits. It is incorporated for that very purpose, and bears. 

that name. There are a multitude of depositors, and I am assured by 

the officers of that institution that if the Government shall pursn(} _this course at this time it will be impossible for them to realize upon 

their securities or to pay their depositors. 

Now, I do not oppose the principle of this bill; if the circumstances 

of the country were now as they were in England and France when 

the same principle was established there, I should make no opposition 

to it. I only ask the attention of the chairman of the Committee of 

Ways and :Means, and other members of the House to the facts that 

I have stated, hoping that they will be better able to give a definite 

and satisfactory answer upon these points than I have been. 

The SPEAKER. The time of the gentleman from New York [MrL 

WOOD] has expired. 

Mr. \V00D. Then if the Honse will gi~ me the previous question 

I will divide my closing hour ;with other gentlemen who desire to b& 

heard. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I hope the HoMe will vote down the previous 

question. I will then move to refer the bill to the Committee of the 

Whole on the state of the Union. · · 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from New York will lose no_thing 

by allowing the debate to continue. The Chair will recognize the 

suggestion of the committee whenever the Honse or the gentleman 

himself desires to test the sense of the House upon the question of 

closing debate, so that he may move the previous question. _· Mr. WOOD. I have no wish to deprive any gentleman of an oppor~ 

tnnity of discussing the bill; but if the motion of the ~entleman 

from Illinois shall prevail of course it means that the bill will go over for this session. 

The SPEAKER. The House might wish to discuss this bill in Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union. The Chair does not 

entirely recognize that as an adverse vote. 'rhe HoUBe may desire 

to consider it either in the House itself "r in Committe~ of the Whole. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I do not desire at all to delay the bill. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair llnderstood the purpose of the gentle- man from Dlinois. 

Mr. WOOD. I wish the bill disposed of to-day. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair has already decided that it is competent for a motion to be made to go into the Committee of. the Whole on the state of the Union to consider this bill to-day, and when the House 

goes into committee this bill will of necessity be considered. 

Mr. BURCHARD. Is it now too late to make a motion to refer the 

bill to the Coii).mittee of the Whole on the state of the Union on the 

point of order 1 · 

The SPEAKER. Yes; the Chair has so decided, but the Chair has 

not decided that it is too late for the Honse to have an opportunity, 

by a majority vote, to refer the bill to the Committee of the ·whole on the state of the Union, and if there should be an adverse vote upon 

the demand for the previoUB question that motion would be in order. 

Mr. MILLS. But the gentleman from New York will not permit 

that, motion to be made. · . 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from New York [Mr. WooD] bas 

not the floor ; the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. BURCHARD) has it. 

Mr. SPRINGER. Has the time of the gentleman from New York 

expired f · · · The SPEAKER. It has. ·. 

t 
\ 

~ 

468 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. JANUARY' 15, 

Mr. SPRINGER. I asked the Chair to recognize me at the end of 

his hour to make this motion. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair under the practice of the House recognizes the members of the committee who reported the bill. If time 

is allowed the Cbo.ir will then recognize gentlemen outside of the 

committee. 

Mr. WOOD. I desire to understand whether the Speaker has decided that I have lost control of the bill 7 . The SPEAKER. The gentleman has not lost control of the bill, 

because th~ Chair will recognize him to demand the previous q ues- tion whenever he wishes to do so under the rule. 

LATE HON. B. B. DOUGLAS. 

Mr. HUNTON. Iaskthegentlemanfrom Illinois [Mr. BURCHARD] 

to yield to me to make a motion touching the payment of the salary 

of a late member. 

Mr. BURCHARD. I will do so if it can be done by unanimous 

consent. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair thinks nobody will object. 

Mr. HUNTON. If anybody objects I will withdraw the resolution. 

The Clerk read the resolution, a-s follows: 

Resolved, That the Committee on Appropriations be instructed to include in the 

sundry civil appropriation bill an item appropriatin1t a sum sufficient to pay the 

three children of lion. B. B. Douglas, late a Representative from the State of Vir· 

ginia. the amount he would have received f~?r the residue of the term for which he was elected. 

There wa-s no objection, and the resolution was considered and 

agreed to. 

Mr. HUNTON moved to reconsider the vote by which the resolution was adopted; and also moved that the moti''on to reconsider be laid on the tab1e. 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

REFUNDING THE PUBLIC DEBT. 

The House then resumed the consideration of the bill reported 

from the Committee of Ways and Means. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I desire to ask when the gentleman from New 

York designs to move the previous question upon this bill, so that we may know what to expect. The SPEAKER. The Chair understands the object of the gentle- man from illinois is to have general debate or a lengthy debate upon 

this bill. The time of the gentleman from New Y 9rk expired. The 

Chair then reco~nized the gentleman from illinois [Mr., BuRCHARD] 

who is in opposttion to the bill as reported. As soon as the committee 

shall cease to occupy the floor, the Chair will recognize, as is the practice, members outside of the committee. 

Mr. BURCHARD. Mr. Speaker, I think that this bill is not objectionable so far as it goes. I should prefer in its place a measure already reported by the Committee of Ways and Means and which is on the Calendar, a measure which obviates all the objections so ear- neatly urged by the gentleman from Pennsylvania, [Mr. KELLEY.] 

This bill of a single section is intended to encourage refunding by 

issuing certi1icates of deposit, in the hope that investors will purchase 

certi1icates of $10 each, drawing the low rate of interest of 3 per cent., 

which certi1icates will ultimately be merged into and become 4 pe:r 

cent. bonds. 

Now, the argument urged in favor of this measure is that there is a class of investors-the poor and saving, the economical and industrious-who desire to invest their savings in Government securities, 

and to make the investment in amounts less than the minimum now authorized by law, which is $50. This n;t~ure is .designed to facilitate the refunding of the debt by authonzmg the lSSUe of 3 per cent. 

certificates of deposit and their conversion into 4 per cent. bonds, the 

money paid for ~he ~rtificates of deposit being used in t~e re~e~ption of the ou~mndmg 6 per•cent. bonds. So far, I believe, 1t 18 a 

desirable measure. Under the rules and regulations that are provided in the latter part 

of this bill, as I am informed, the Secretary of the Trea-sury holds 

that money can be forwarded in post-office money-orders to the 

Treasurer of the United States, and he can collect the money from 

the Post-Office Department, and thus we will have all the advantages of the money-order system which are provided for in the other 

bill to which I have alluded. · There is, however, an additional feature in that bill which I think 

should be provided by Congress. I. think there is no more important measure that has been presented to this Congress than that one. It 

is much more simple than the lilystems which have been adopted by 

other governments. · In lt!61, Great Britain adopted a system by means of which the 

poor and the frugal who desired to invest their savings in government securities could -utilize the postal service for the purpose of 

forwarding their money to the treasury, and they could be repaid through the post-effices of that country their deposits or any portion. The full system of postal savings-banks was established at that time 

in Great Britain. I submit a statement showing the increase of 

savings deposits in post-office and ordinary savinfts-banks in Great 

Britain and Ireland nom 1862 to the latest parliamentary returns 

accessible-the year 1817. 

Deposits of British sa'ltmgs-banks, 1863 t~ 1877. 

1863 ·-- ·- ·-·---·--··-···-·-· ··-······· 

1864 ·· ··-· · ··-·· ··---···-· ·-·-····-··· 

1865. ·-·-·· ·····- ·-·--···-·---·--·-···· 

1866 ·--··- ·-···· ·-·-·· ··--··· -··· ·--··· 1867 · ·····-·---·---···-······-····· ···· 

1868 ····-· · ·--·--··--··········-···-· · -

1869 ·····-· ··-·-·····-· ···--· ·-···· ··-· . 1870 ··-- ·-··--··· ···-·· ···--- ···-·· .••. 

1871 ---·· ··-·-··--·--·--··-··-·· · · -· ··· 1872 ··--····---·· ·-·········· .••••• . - ·· 187:r. ·--.•••••. ···- •• ··-·-· ....... . - . . . 

1874 ····--··---·········--·-··--··-·-·· 1875 ••••••. ···-·····-~· ··-······· • . •••. 

1876 · -·· · ···-·· ·-·····-···· · ·-···-···-· 

1877 ·-·····-·· · ·--······-·······-······ 

Post-office banks. 

16, 884, 140 

24,965, 620 

32, 632,000 

40,605,875 

48,749,645 

58, 333,275 

67, 621, 045 

75,495, 5e0 

85, 125,020 

99,591, 695 

1os, 83a, 745 

115, 787, 345 

125, 936, 725 

134, 98'2, 750 

143, 703, 785 

Ordinary sav- ings banks. 

$204, 757, 525 

197, 601, 680 

193, 726, 490 

181, 910, 580 182, 666, 015 

184, 337, 285 

187, 768, TJO 

. 189, 792, 745 

194, 098, 315 

200,441,740 

202, 500, 675 

207,529,745 

212, 038, 845 

216 417,~ 

2"21, 193, 430 

Total ordi- nary and 

post-o ffi o e s a.vings· ba.nkB. 

$221, 641, 665 

222, 567, 300 

2"26, 358, 490 

222,516, 455 

231, 415, 660 

242, 670, 560 

255, 389,175 

265, 288, 265 279, ~23, 335 

297, 033, 435 

30 • 339, 420 

323, 317, 090 

a:u. 945, 570 

35!, 400, 600 214, 897, 205 

The deposits in the British postal savings-banks are in effect deposits in the treasury. The government receiv-es, credits, and repays 

the depositor at the post-offices designated for that purpose. There were 301 of them in 1863 and 5,480 in 1 77. 

Now, it is unnecessary to provide post-office banks on that syst em for the purpose of utilizing and gathering the savings of the poor fo:r 

the purpose of refunding the debt. It is unnecessary that in every 

town where there is a money-order office the postmaster should be 

authorized to receive and keep an account of the moneys so deposited, entering upon the books the names of the depositors, and allowing them to draw their money at that office. 'Ve can simply adopt a system by means of which, through the money-order offices, the 

money of these investors can be forwarded to the Treasurer of tae 

United States, to be entered on the books of the Treasury, there to 

remain to the credit of the depositor, drawing a low rate of interest 

and convertible into 4 per cent. bonds, and when paid to be paid 

through the money-order system or by a Treasury draft. The system 

is practicable and desirable. 

This Government owes $2,000,000,000. It has borrowed from the 

people of this country a;nd of foreign countries some $1,800,000,000, represented by our bonded debt. The people of the United States have in 

their banks, savings, national, public, and private, ov:er$2,000,000,000. 

In the savings-banks of a dozen States they have nearly '900,000,000 ; 

$843,000,000 in less than one-third of the States of this Union. 

The people have the capital to loan; the Government desires tc 

borrow. On the 1st of this month it was paying 6 per cent. interest on $6S7,846,200, aud 5 per cent. on $703,266,650. The capitalists are offering at this time to loan at 4 per cent. as their 6 per cent. bonds 

mature and are called for payment by the Secretary. But thousands 

of the poor would loan their savings if our Government would receive 

them. 

TP.e savings deposits of Great Britain are all invested in her consols 

except a comparatively small sum, not much more than $1,000 000_, retained as balances in the post-office banks to meet withdrawai demands. If thepeopleshoulddepositnnderthis proposition $100,000,000 

in the United States Treasury not 5 per cent. need be reserved from 

investment and immediate use in the redempt4>n of 6 per cent. bonds. 

Now we can adopt this system without jeo}>ardiziilg the savingsbanks of· the country, because a rate Of interest is proposed lower 

than that paid by the savings-banks . .In the postal savings-bank 

system in Great Britain the rate of interest is placed at ·2t per cent. ; 

the interest paid by the savings-banks is 31-percent. We .find in the 

history of that system since 1861 that the savings-bank deposits re- main substantially a-s they were, while the deposits under the postal 

saving system have increased from nothing in 1862 to $143,000,000 in 

1877. During the same period the deposits in the savings-banks have 

increased from 200,000,000 up to ~ll,OOO,OOO. 'I:he postal saving 

system in Great Britain, although so widely and conveniently ex- tended to every important post-office, has not injured the savings- banks of that country by diminishing their deposits, but they continue 

not only to hold their deposits but to increase the amount. Those 

who are interested in the savings-banks of this country, the officers 

of those banks, tke trustees and representatives of those· institutions, 

need not fear that this system will jeopardize or injure them, or only 

such of them as are rotten and ought to die speedily. · Why should we not adopt some such system' Two-thirds· of the 

States of this Union practically have no savings-banks. A system 

inviting and affording facilities !or the people to intrust their sav- ings to the care of the Government would induce habits of thrift.and 

economy. The people are anxious to do this. Wherever this subject 

has been agitated the people are asking for some such system. Why 

should not Congress adopt itt Because in a few States there are other systems which it is feared even this low rate of interest will 

inJ!.tre, shall we hesitate to legislate for the benefit of the people t 

A ten-dollar certificate of deposit is but little better as an investment 

for savings than a ten-dollar note. The whole value of the savings 

system cbnsists in the fact that the savings, to a certain extent, are placed beyond the reach of the depositors for immediate use. 
1579. CONGBESSION.AL RECORD-ROBBE. 469 

If a man has a ten-dollar bill and a desire or temptation comes to 

him to spend the money, he can spend it. That is one reason w 4y a man who wants to save his money puts it into a savings-bank or some 

place where it is beyond his ~ediate control. It is.there for safekeeping for himself and from himself for the t1me bemg. 

Now, if he puts his money in.to a 3 per cent. certificate, convert~~le 

as my friend from Pennsylvania [Mr. KELLEY] proposes at any trme 

into legal-tender notes, that certificate will readily pas as money, 

and the bolder of it can spend it just as well as he could spend a tendollar bill. . If the money is put into a savings-bank, then the depositor must. take his book to the bank or draw a check for the money. That takes 

time and often the temptation passes and the depositor leaves his mon~y in the bank. If the money is deposited in the Treasury of the 

United States, and it takes some days or a week for the depositor to 

obtain it, he will probably allow it to remain there undisturbed. 

Now let us have what is equivalent to a savings system, instezd of 

these certificates of deposit. If amendments are to be offered to this 

bill I desire to offer one in the form of a section that will allow such 

a system t o be adopted. I won~d prefer that the. ~ill shou~d pas~, with some such amendment . Without such a prov1s10n, I think thts 

is but a half-way measure in aid of refunding. 

I did not oppose this bill in committee, but consented that it should 

be reported to the ~ou e, inst~ad ~f insisting that we should pro~ee.d 

to consider the savmgs-deposit bill already reported. That billlB now on the Calendar, is a special order, in charge of. the gentleman 

from North Carolina, [Mr ... ROBBL~s,] and I understand that the friends 

of the bill desire that it shall be called up at an early day, and brought 

before the House for consideration. 

I do not desire at this time to occupy the attention of the Honse 

any lon(l'er in discussing that measure. I will merely say that I desire additional legislation upon this subject, either by·way of amendment to this bill or by considering the bill which has already been 

reported. I now yield for ten minutes to the gentleman from Massachusetts, 

[Mr. BUTLER. J 

1tlr. BUTLER. I should not have troubled the House on this matter did I not deem this bill a. delusion and a snare. What is the 

proposition f It is that the poor man who h;:u; $10 surplus each month 

may go to some depository of the Government, I do not know where, and spend the day in obtaining with his $10 of money a ten-dollar certificate of deposit. This he may do every month for five months, 

and then he can put his $50 of certificates of deposit into a 4 per cent. 

bond. During that time he will receive as his interest on the certifi- cates of deposit the sum of thirty-four and one-half cents. He will 

have speat five days or parts of five days in doin~ that, and. when 

he gets it done he will have the privilege of buymg a fifty-dollar , 4 per cent. bond. If he would only keep his money in his pocket- . ' book and continue at work he would at the end of five months have 

t he same privilege without having lost time in running about hunting up public depositories. That is all there is in this bill. 

It is said that the object is safety. How is this certificat-e of deposit 

for $10 any more safe than a ten-dollar bill' .If the depositor loses it, it 

is gone. This system has no element of a savings-bank in it. It does 

not afford any safety. It does not provide for any payment of accrued 

interest. After getting your certificate of deposit, if yon require the 

money, you can get a broker to sell it for you at a shave greater than 

the whole interest: That is all there is in the bill. If there is anything more I fail to find it~ and I should like to have some gentle- man of the Committee of Ways and Means tell me what more there 

is in it. 

But it is said, "Oh! we are going to do something for the poor people ;" and my friend from Illinois [Mr. BURCHARD] has likened this 

proposed system to the governmental savrn~s-bank system of England. But mark the difference. The governmental savings-bank of 

England pays 2! per cent. interest, while the ordinary discount of the 

Bank of England is 2t per ceRt. Therefore there is some boon to the 

laborer. But here the ordinary rate of discount is from 7 per cent. 

to 10 and 12 per cent., according to the locality. What boon is it to 

t he poor man to give him the right to get 3 per cent. interest on his 

deposit-less than half the lowest rate of discount anywhere in this countryf Put t4e rate up to 7 per cent. for six months, and I will 

talk with yon. Give the same chance .to the poor man that you give 

to the bank. 

Under this system yon propose to gather the deposits of the people, 

t he greenbacks, into the Treasury of the United States-for wha.t 

purpose Y There is no way of paying them out. The current receipts 

of the Government must be equal to its current expenditures; and 

this surplus fund which gets into the Treasury cannot get out so far as I can understand, whatever laws you may pass. Thus you continue 

still further the contraction of the currency which ha already depressed labor, stopped business, and brought the country to its present condition. This is said to be a necessary condition ; and we are told that we have this great and Heaven-born boon of resumption as 

t he result-resumption atNewYork and nowhere else! Yon will not 

let a man get $10 of your gold; he must have accumulated $50 before 

he can get either a 4 per cent. bond or any gold. 

Wby not say that these 4 per cent. bonds shall be issued in the form 

of ten-dollar registered bonds f Why go t hrongh this circumlocution 

for the simple purpose (and in my hamble judgment this measure originates in that purpose) of getting rid of the greenbacks-getting 

them locked up. Therefore I cannot vote for this bill. If I understand anything of the int-erests of the people, it will do them no good. 

It can do them no good. It might possibly injure the savings-banks• 

if it were possible to have any large operations under this bill. 

When your poor man bas put his first $10 or his second $10 into one of these certificates what shall he do with it in case he is under the 

necessity of using the money f If he puts the amount in the savingsbank he can go and draw it out and use it; but with this certificate 

he must go to a broker and snbmih to a shave, and the shave of that 

particular broker too. All that he can possibly get if he accumulates 

$10 a month for five months is thirty-four cents interest, and this he secures by going five times and buying five of these certificates. 

Mr. PEDDIE. The storekeepers will take them in trade. 

:Mr. BUTLER. If yon want to do anything in this direction I am in favor of a postal~:~avings-bank of the Government, allowing interest on deposits as high as any interest the Government pays, deducting a Rmall percentage for the expenses of doing the business. That is 

what we want, South and West and East and North. 

Let the rate of interest be 6 per cent. if yon please, as long as the 

Government pays 6 per cent. interest to other creditors. To whom on earth should the Government pay interest rather than the poor 

laborer, to encourage him in making savings T Who on earth should 

have the preference over him f Yon pay 6 per cent. interest to one class; 

yon give a special privilege to the banks and allow them to make~ and 

10 and 15 per cent.-never less than 7. And now yon undertaKe to 

demagogue this question of the savings of the people by offering them 

3 per cent., these 3 per cent. certificates being convertible when they 

reach the amount of $50 into a 4 per cent. bond, which may or may 

not be worth all its face imports, which never can be worth any more, 

and may at any time be worth less. Is the Honse prepared for such a measure 7 If yon are going to pass the bill at all the amendment 

of my friend from Pennsylvania [Mr. KELLEY] should certainly be 

adopted. That amendment provides siiJ:U)ly that a man after making 

his deposit may go and get his money again, if he does not like the 

security. This is exactly what he can do at the savings-bank. But one principal objection to this whole measure is the want of safety. 

The holder of the certificate of deposit may be robbe<f of it at any 

time; he may lose it by .accident; it may be burnt up ; and then his 

money is gone. 

Mr. KELLEY. Is not the case the same if the depositor loses his 

savings-bank book f 

lli. BUTLER. By no manner of means ; not in our portion of the 

country; I do not know how it may be elsewhere. With us every 

savings-bank book is reaistered; means are taken for the identification of the depositor by handwriting and otherwise; and if his book 

is lost he can still get his money by giving an indemnity bond in the same way as is required in the case of United States registered bonds 

which are lost or destroyed. Under this bill when a certificate has 

been lost the money is gone forever; but under a p&atal savingsbank system the deposit would be registered; the voucher might be 

transferred according to proper forms, and the assign~ could get his 

money. The poor man, if his voucher should be lost, could get his 

money as well as the Manhattan Savings-Bank. Perhaps, if necessary, we wo.nld pass a bill to facilitate the operation, though possibly that 

is doubtful. 

For the reasons I have stated I am heart andsoul, body and mind, 

opposed to this bill. 

Mr. KELLEY. Will the gentleman vote for my amendment f 

~Ir. BUTLER. I will vote for the amendment, because the maR 

who deposits his money and gets a ten-dollar certificate would, under 

the amendment, be no worse off than if he had a ten-do~ar bill. He 

could get his money at any time, and by waiting six months he could 

get it converted into a bond. 

On the 12th of February, 1869, I proposed to this Honse the con- vertible system. My speech is on record, and I have never had/occasion to go back on it. I stand by it still. • [Here the hammer fell.] :Mr. BURCHARD. I yield now to the gentleman from New York. ~Ir. HEWTI'T, of New York. 1\Ir. Speaker, this proposition originates in the recommendation of the Secretary of the Treasury con- tained in his annual report. That clause of the report is headed by 

the word "savings," and undoubtedly the intention of the Secretary was to recommend a system to Congress by which the savings of the 

poor might be converted into Government bonds. Incidentally no doubt he expected to assist the refunding system. 

Now, I am in favor of a well-digested postal savings-bank. I agree 

with all that has been said by the gentleman from lilinois [Mr. 

BURCHARD] and by the gentleman from Massachusetts [Mr. BUTLER] as to the desirable nature of such an institution as that in the framework of our Government. I hold that it is due to the laborer to give 

him a place of absolute certainty for the deposit of his earnings and 

his savings. But I need not take one moment of time to show this 

proposition submitted by the Committee of Ways and Means is not 

such an institution as will protect or give any facility indeed for a poor man to save his earnings. The gentlema.n from Pennsylvania 

[1\!r. KELLEY] and the gentleman from Massachusetts [Mr. BuTLER] 

have shown bow utterly b aseless it is to call this a provision for the 
470 OONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. JANUARY 15, 

savings of the poor. A man might aa well keep his 10 in the form ·of a hank bill, as the gentleman from Massachusetts has said, as to 

put it in the form of one of these certificates. 

A loss of one of these certificates wonld be equivalent to the loss • of a ten-dollar bill, for it is not to be supposed that a poor man can by any process take the measures instituted for the recovery of his 

loss. Aud I was glad to hear some one put to the gentleman from 

Massachusetts the question as to the savings-banks books. When a savings-bank book IS lost it does not require even a bond as the gentleman from :Massachusetts has saiil to get a new one. In order to 

test that matter I myself lost a book purposely, as I wished to see whether there was any hardship on the poor. I lost my book and 

went to the bank and asked for a new one. They first made me write my signature and identify it. They asked from me an affidavit, 

they asked me to identify myself; all of which I did with very con- siderable trouble, for it cost me two hours to find a man who knew 

me, but nevertheless I succeeded in doing it. [Laughter.] I received 

and have in my possession now a new book without any other than 

the ordinary tr.onble necessary to prove a loss. 

Now, the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. KELLEY] proposes to 

remedy thia difficulty which he makes so clear, that this is not a sav- ings-bank, by an amendment which wonld give the right to the depositor to get his money ba.ck after six months with 3 per cent. interest. I am sure the gentleman from Pennsylvania would not have 

made that suggestion if he had known what will necessarily be the 

effect of it. It is a proposition to give to the rich men with large 811IDS of money 3 per cent. interest on deposits with the Government 

for six months, and that is all it amounts to. I state to thia House 

that for the last four years there have been many millions of dollars on deposit in trust companies in the city of New York at less 

than 3 per cent. interest. I know of large sums lying there at 2! per 

cent., and the owners will be glad to stipulate to let them lie for six ·months if they can get 3 per cent. interest. If thia amen<4nent of the 

gentleman from Pennsylvania shall passt they will certainly walk to 

the subtreasury, deposit their money, take out these ten-dollar cer- tificates-it is as good as any other form-and at the end of six months 

go back and draw 3 per cent. interest, and must,·therefore, keep the 

cash on hai\d so that it cannot be invested in bonds. 

The Chair is about to rap me down, and I ask the gentleman from ·illinois to yield to me for ten minutes. 

Mr. BURCHARD. I will yield to the gentleman from New York 

five minutes longer. · Mr. BUCKNER. Let me ask the gentleman from New York whether 

that would not be a good operation for the Government, if it can take 

up 5 and 6 per cent. bonds and retire them f 

Mr. HEWITT, of New York. It wonld be if it did not have to pay 

it back at the end of six months. The gentleman from Pennsylvania 

provides the money shall be paid back. If the money be put in 6 per 

cent. bonds how are you going to get it out of the 6 per cent. bonds 

and pay back these deposits t The thing is impossible, and the suggestion of the gentleman from Pennsylvania is entirely impracticable. 

Bot, Mr. Speaker, if this were ever so much a savings-bank, I should 

be utterly and absolutely opposed to it for another reason which to 

my mind is insuperable. The money which is to be received from 

these ten-dollar depositors is to be used according to the provisions 

of the refunding act. What are the provisions of the refunding act t 

That when the money is deposited in the Treasury three months' no- tice shall be given for the call of the 5-20 bonds. Now, then, when 

this money is aggregated together it is going to lie for three months 

somewhere and the Government is going to pay 3 per cent. interest on it, and also during the three months pending the. call it is going 

to pay 6 per cent. upon the called bonds. Where will this money be 

in the interval t Where is it now on the called bonds f I hold in my 

hand, in the RECORD of the 21st of December, the letter of the Secretary of the Treasury in which he reports that on October 1, 1878, there were sixty-four millions of public money on deposit without interest 

in the national banks. This money, gathered up in sums of $10 from 

the poor people of thia country, is to go into the public depositories 

in the same manner as the money received for the 4 per cent. bonds 

and it is to lie there three months idle; and these banks which have 

made over a million of dollars in double interest in the la..~t year unde:a: 

the funding system, are to get lt per cent. more interest for three 

months out of the savings of the people of this colllltry. 

The process is very simple. The monJy will be deposited in the 

banks; the banks will use it in buying the 6 per cent. bonds, which, 

under the regulations of the Treasury, are accepted as collateral 

security ; these bonds draw interest for three months, amounting to 

lt per cent., and are then surrendered either as called bonds or ex- changed for them with the holders when they are presented for payment. The people pay interest on both the deposits and the bonds; 

the depositor gets! of 1 per cent. and the national bank gets lt per 

cent.; and this is called justice to the poor and an aid to refunding. 

Mr. Speaker, I am a zealous, earnest advocate for resumption. I 

trust there are many in this House as earnest as I am, but I claim 

there are none more earnest. I am equally earnest for the refunding 

of the national debt :it a lower rate of interest in order to relieve the 

pressure of taxation. I believe in the policy, and I would believe in 

the practice if I did not find it every time so arranged as to build up 

the profits of certain national banks which hold the public funds. I 

acquit the committee, cheerfully, of any complicity in this transaction. I know it never occurred to them to suppose that this money was to lie idle and that the Government was to continue to pay lt 

per cent. interest on it, on the bonds which it is intended to redeem. But that objection, it seems to me, is absolutely fatal to this bill in its 

present form. Its efficiency as a savings-bank has been shqwn to be a delusion, but its efficiency as a JDeans of taking lt per cent. interest out of the Treasury of thia people and putting it into the treasury 

of certain national banks which hold the Government deposits is as clear as noonday, and I cannot support the bill. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

:Mr. BURCHARD. I yield ten minutes to the gentleman from Ohio, 

[Mr. GARFIELD.] 

Mr. GARFIELD. On genera.! principles it is my opinion that the 

Jess legislation we have on financial questions, in the present situation 

of the country, the better. We are getting on well; and I would not, 

just now, favor any radical change in the present order of our cur- rency laws. But here is a proposition more misunderstood, I think, than any I have ever heard discussed for the same length of time, as is shown by two or three speeches that have been made during the 

last half hour. 

Let us get at the situation. The Secretary of th~ Treasury is by 

law authorized and directed to refund the 6 per cent. interest-beal'ing 

bonds of the United States into four percents.' Every time he makes a refund of $1 be lightens the annual burden of coin interest paid by 

the people to the amount of two cents. 

We have a very considerable number of the 6 per cent. bonds still 

out, but at a rate wholly unparalleled in the history of this country 

they are being ~efunded into four percents. At first it was the cus- tom of the Treasury to accomplish that through a syndicate; but there wns much feeling throughout the country that it allowed a. small 

group of people to have all the advantages of the business of refunding. The present Secretary of the Treasury abandon~ the syndicate 

plan, and invited all the national banks of the United States, at least 

all the depository banks, to take hold of the work and aid him in the 

transfer oi the six percents into four percents without the help of 

tha syndicate. Several of the banks took hold of it, and, the plan 

having a broader basis than the syndicate, the refunding baa been 

going on more rapidly. Instead of a syndicate of a few people, it was done by all the banks that were willing to help, a.nd these banks were actin<r as agents of their customers to take bonds. When a bank 

takes a million of 4 per cent. bonds, it takes them for its cnstomers; 

and in that way the refunding is going on, through the agency of the 

banks,. by the people. 

Now, the Secretary of the Treasury, while he has saved considerably by this method and has rapidly hastened the work of refunding, finds or believes be can save more and make the refunding more rapid still if he can broaden the basis still further by going beyond 

the banks and dealing directly with the people. He proposes that, i'n order to do this thing, he shall be authorized to permit private 

citizens to come in with savings of $10 each, or any multiple of $10, 

and place them in his custody to be entered aa loans to the Government, on which they shall receive 3 per cent. interest until such time as their subscriptions shall amount to $50, when they will be transferred into 4 per cent. bonds. It is simply a measure to invite the 

co-operation of men of 1:1mall means in the work of funding. 

Mr. TOWNSEND, of New York. May I ask the gentleman a question¥ 

Mr. GARFIELD. Yes, sir. 

Mr. TOWNSEND, of New York. Why not allow on the small deposit 4 per cent. as well aa on the large one Y · Mr. GARFIELD. For the reason'that there would then & no mo- tive to go on and put ii.into 4 per cent. bonds. This is not a savings- bank bill. When the time comes to discuss the question of a postal 

savings-bank, I may want to ·ay something on that subject. But 

this is not a proposal to convert the Treasury into a savings-bank. 

It is a proposal to facilitate and .hasten the refunding of our 6 per 

cent. into 4 per cent. bonds, and for no other reason. Now, the amendment of the · gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. 

KELLEY] puts a savings-bank feature into it, but it is not broad enough 

to cover that subject; it takes away altogether the motive and defeats 

the purpose of refunding . .Mr. KELLEY. I would ask the gentleman if the chairman of the 

Committee of Ways and Means did not distinctly announce thali this was to furnish the people of the United States national savings-banks t 

Mr. WOOD. Let me answer the gentleman. I did not state it in 

that sense. In speaking of the French system I said that the effect 

and object would be to make this _in one sense a national institution 

for the savings and earnings of the people. 

Mr. GARFIELD. It is so to this extent, that in many sections of 

the country the savings-banks have broken down; the people have 

lost confidence in them, and in lieu of placing their funds in savingsbanks,. which they cannot trust, the Secretary of the Treasury belie\es and I believe that il they were allowed to do it they will place 

their avings where they will be invested in 4 per cent. bonds. 

Now, here is a way to .hasten refunding, without the aid of a syndicate; without the aid of the banks; and without the cost of i per 

cent. comnti.ssion, whi~h we now pay, as the means of d<>ing tha~ 
. --. 

1879. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 471 

without changing any of our laws whatever, except simply allowing a man to deposit $10 at a time until his deposits amount reaches $50. 

I believe it .will be most efficacious. 

1\fr. KELLEY. Where f 

Mr. GARFIELD. Wherever they cannot trnst the savings-banks, 

in the Treasury of the United States. By postal money-orders addressed to the Secretary of the Treasury, and from the postal moneyorder offices in the United States: or through the banks, without cost, 

citizens can send their orders under regulations to be fixed by the Secretary of the Treasury, and transfer their gains to this national loan. 

The gentleman from Massachusetts sees trouble in this project. 

He says that this is a scheme for the contraction of the currency. 

'Vhy, sir, does not the gentleman know that this is a plan for paying 

out every dollar put in, and buying up the 6 per cent. bonds, so that 

all the money paid in this way will find its way immediately to the 

people in the purchase of 6 per cent. bonds. If he can find contraction in that he must have a microscope of a higher power than any 

I have ever seen. AgainJ he says that this is going to distress the poor man. I have more fatth in the poor man than the gentleman seems to have. If a man believ·es that he can in a few months save $50, I am willing to , trust him that he can do it. When he puts in a ten-dollar deposit I 

believe that he has enough character to follow it by another and 

another, until he becomes the owner of a 4 per cent. bond of the 

United States. 

Reference has been made to France. One of the great elements of 

strength of public credit in France is because five millions of French- men hold the bonds of France, and the daywhen three million Ameri- can laborers are the holders of bonds of the United States will be 

the day when the occupation of these gentlemen who try to raise a storm in this country between the bondholder and the poor people 

will be gone, and the strength of our public faith will be established, 

and there will be a death to demagoguery, and for no other reason than that the people of this country will become interested in the 

public debt of the United States. A man that holds a fifty-dollar 

bond will not stand much nonsense about repudiation of the public 

debt. It is a great measure of protection of the public credit. It 

will hasten· the day of the refunding of our debt. 

Mr. Speaker, if we want to help the business of this country, we should aid the United States to ~et out of the way as a great com- petitor for loans. While t.he Umted States is paying 6 per cent., no private citizen can get a loan for less than 6 per cent., or as low as 6 

per cent. When the United States gets its debt re-funded down to 

4 per cent., then it has substantially got out of the way as a competitor for the loans of private persons, and the sooner we can do that 

the sooner we shall get out of the way of the industry and business 

of this country. 

Now, if the propoeition of the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. 

KELLEY] be adopted we simply make this, in a small and imperfect 

way, a savings-bank bill, and the Government must take and hold a large volume of money and be ready on call to pay again what baa 

been deposited; but, on the contrary, if the bill is allowed to stand as it is reported by the committee, the Government can use every 

dollar deposited as soon as it comes into the Treasury to buy up the 6 

per cent. bonds. 

Mr. HEWITT, of New York. On three months' notice. 

Mr. BURCHARD. How much time have I left, Mr. Speaker f 

The SPEAKER. Fifteen minutes. 

Mr. BURCHARD. I will yield five minutes to the gentleman from 

Kansas, [Mr. PHILLIPS.] 

Mr. PHILLIPS. Mr. Speaker, I regret that the Committee of Ways 

and Means should have come before this Honse with a measure of such 

importance as this, proposing to move the previous question so as to 

cut off all amendments or debate. The Committee of Ways and 

Means has this privilege, but I do not think it should be so permitted 

to exercise it. I do not believe that a measure of such magnitude can be properly considered save in Committee of the Whole. There are other measures which this anta~onizes which may be offered, and 

the members ought to have the r1~ht to vote on them. This bill is a mere skeleton, to be filled up by tne Seoretary_ofthe Treasury. The 

necessity for amending it appears in every line of it, and yet it is a proposition against which, almost in any shape, members are reluctant 

to vote. 

There are three bills upon our Calendar waitin'g in their order to 

be reached, which after great labor were matured by three separate 

committees, providing postal savings-banks or savings-banks for the 

P,eople. One bill was reported from the Committee on the Post-Office 

and Post-Roads by the gentleman from North Carolina, [Mr. WADDELL;] another was reported from the Committee of 'Vays a-nd Means 

by another gentleman from North Carolina, [Mr. RQDBINS,] aud one was reported from the Committee on Banking · and Curren(Jy by him 

who is now addressing the· House. Those bills meet the case more fully than either of the propositions now before the House. One of 

them is a proposition for a popular loan, and t.he other two carefully 

matured bills for postal savin~s-banks. 

What is the proposition which the chairman of the Committee of 

'Vays and Means [Mr. WooD] and the majority ~f the members of 

that committee ask this House to support f They propose this as a popular loan, offering the people a low:er rate of interest than the 

.Government bas ever paid. To-day we are paying 5 and G per cent .. 

interest, and are boasting because we have been able to float a loan 

at 4 per cent. Now they propose offering on this people's loan only 

3 per cent. They provide no means by which the p.eople cau get 

back the money they will have thus deposited. 'I'he only mode by 

which buyers of these certificates can get back their money will' be 

to sell them to any broker or shaver, as the gentleman from Massachusetts [Mr. BUTLER) has said. · 

I do not think any proposition could be made so inevitably barreh 

of all useful results as this proposition. A ten-dollar 4 per cent. bond 

would have been better. Even a 3 per cent. bond. It does not give 

the people a postal savings-bank. It does not give them an interestbearing bond. It is a certificate that is not convertible. When a number of them are aggregated they can be converted into 4 percent. 

bonds. That process cannot be said to be devised for the people. 

Bnt the worst of it is that it increases the already too great powers 

of the Secretary of the Tre'asury. He is to make the regulations to 

carry out the bill, which scarcely contains a restriction on this exer- cise of power. This may enable bankers to hold their reserves in 

these certificates, for they can convert them, but it is in,no just sense a popular measure. I am sure that this House desires to do some- thing in this direction. I am sure the conn try expects it of us. Each 

member will be reluctant to vote against any proposition for a popular loan, no matter how defective, but surely the countryhad'a right 

to expect something better than this. Again, this bill provides no means by which the people can obtain the inter~t to. be paid upon 

these certificates of deposit. Such interest must and can only be 

paid when the certificates are ultimately paid, or be computed when 

the certificates are converted into bonds. The interest on Government bonds is payable semi-annually; but there is no Jlrovision in 

this bill. for the payment of any interest upon the certificates of 

deposit semi-annually or at any regular l>eriod. 

Every member of this House very well knows that upon the old 

compound-interest notes the people obtained no interest; the banks 

who bought them obtained it all. Those old twenty-dollar billtt 

.floated as money merely until bankers found that the interest was worth more than its value as circulation, when bankers and brokers 

held them. 

In the limited time which is allowed me I desire to say that I .b.ope 

this Honse will not sustain the previous question. I hope the House 

will assert what is due to it and to every member of it by going into a Committee of the Whole, so that this bill may be amended. I send 

to the Clerk's desk, to be read as a part of my remarks, an amendment which I desire to offer. The pending measure, as it comes from 

the committee, is very defective, but if is to be passed at this time I 

desire that the amendment which I send up shall be a part of it. 

The Clerk read as follows: ' 

SEc. -. That any holder of lawful money or Treasury notes, or ooio, may make 

deposits thereof in any sums not less than twenty-five cents in any post-office in 

the United States which is a money-order office; and the money received therefrom shall be forwarded to the Trea-sury of the United States, or any designated depository, under such rules and regulations as shall be agreed on by the Secretary 

of the 'fiea.sury and the Postmaster-General. An account shall be kept with e\"'ery 

depositor and shall bear interest at the rate of 4 per cent. per annum, payable 

quarterly, when the sum of said account shall reach $5. And when it shall amount to 10 it may be converted into the certificates heretofore provided for, or the said 

account, whatever its amount, may be withdrawn by any depositor on giving ten days' notice at the office where deposited. The provisions of thiB section for postal savings-banks shall be executed under regulations to be agreed on between 

the Postma.ster-General and the Secretary of the TreMury. All amounts of money 

derived under this section shall be invested in bonds bearing the highest rates of 

interest subject to call, except that 10 per cent. of such amount shall be held to meet demands under this section. 

Mr. PHILLIPS. That is not the postal savings bill reported by me to the Honse from the Committee on Banking and Currency, but it is 

all of it that could be made applicable as an amendment to this hill. If 

the amendment of the gentleman from Pennsylv~nia [Mr. KELLEY] 

·should ~e adopted, which makes these certi:fica tes convertible into cur- rency, and thus enable the people to get back their money, and then the 

amendment I have offered should be adopted, it would be something nearer what the postal savings-bank bill was designed to be. I hope 

the previous question will be voted down, so that these propositions can come before the Honse and be voted on. I have been earnestly 

desirous to pass a measure of this kind, and would accept a defective measure rather than have none. I think a loan in bonds or certificates 

of small denominations should always bear the highest rate of interest the Government is riow willin(J' to pay. Why should the people 

get a lower rate of interest than tfte capitalists' Onr .first pnrp~ should be to offer the people inducements to save their money. I do 

not despair of passing a postal savings-bank bill this session, l,mt 

would urge the Honse to so amend this bill, for fear the other bills 

may not be reached. · 

Mr. BURCHARD. I now yield five minutes to the gentleman from 

New Yo1k, [Mr. CmTIENDEN.] 

.Mr. CHITTENDEN. I am in favor of a Govel'Dment issue of 4 per 

cent. bonds in small sums, not below $20, at the earliest practicable 

moment, in order to hoard the savings of the people. I regard this 

bill, in its simplicity and terms, as a good step toward that end. At 

the ]}resent moment the savings-bank interest in this country is very 

great, and it demands consideration by Congress. Bn~ for that I 

would advocate a change gt the rate of interest here proposed from 

3 to 4 per cent. . Considering it to be our bounden duty in legislating in this regard 

to respect the savings-bank interest, it does seem to me that the bill 

. , 
472 CONGRESSION ~L\.1 RECORD- HOUSE. J~U.ARY 15, 

is wisely devised. It is not mandatory. It will work slowly at first 

and without harm. The rhetoric that ha8 been expended here in 

behalf of the poor people who are to be cheated by it is all wasted. 

No Il':lan is obliged to deposit his $10 with the Government any more than be is obliged to deposit it in any savings-bank. The poor man cannot put his $10 in any place where it will be safer than to invest 

it· in one of these proposed ten-dollar certificates. The tendency of 

the bill will be to encourage savings and economy. 

I like this bill because it is, in contrast with almost every other 

proposition which has been offered here upon the subject, a practicable measure. It is intelligible, it is simple. There is no trap, no device about it. Any man who has. $10 can obtain a preliminary cer- tificate of deposit for the amount, and thus he will be encouraged to 

obtain four more such certificates, and then he can b~come possessed 

of a 4 per cent. fifty-dollar bond. I would issue bonds for $20. If 

the rate of interest is found too low, it will be discovered and amended 

very promptly. It is neither necessary nor desirable that this measure · shall be especially inviting at the start. 

These certificates are not likely to fall below the legal-tender cur- rency. We have bad experience in respect to that. My friend and 

colleague from New York [Mr. IlEWITTJ understands perfectly wl}ll 

that when in war times currency was 1ssued bearing 7.30 per cent. inte~st, after a very few days every one of those issues was carefully 

hoarded. There was always somebody picking up and counting the 

little interest on such issues; and it will be precisely so in this case under the operation of this bill. These .certificates bearing 3 per cent. 

interest, if put in circulation after a few days or weeks will inevitably be hoarded in somebody~s pocket, unless 4 per cent. bonds fall 

below par. · 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. BURCHARD. If the amendment proposed by the gentleman 

from Pennsylvania [Mr. KELLEY] should prevail, it would be to me an i.ndication of the desire of the House to enter upon something more than a.mere plan for aidin~ the process of refunding, which is the 

purpose of the pending bill. I shall therefore, if that amendment 

prevails, submit and ask a vote on a substitute which will include 

the first section of this bill, with the additional provision that the 

Secretary of the Treasury may, at the desire of any person presenting 

money for exchange in this maimer, enter the transaction upon the 

books of the Treasury Department, and thereupon the depositor shall 

be entitled to· 3 per cent. interest per annum upon the highest amount 

remaining to his credit for the whole quarter, with the right of con- version into a 4 per eent. bond at his option; and that, if the amount 

of deposit should reach ~1,000, the Secretary may convert it into a bond so as to protect the Treasury against too large demands for 

immediate redemption. These arO'the1mbstantiai features of the bill 

of the gentleman from North Carolina, [Mr. ROBBINS,] which, .without objection from him, I propose to offer now as a substitute. The SPEAKER. The Chair does not understand that any amendments are pending. Several amendments have been read; and mem- bers presenting them have stated that if opportunity should be allowe~ 

by the House they would offer them. · Mr. BURCHARD. The amendment of the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr KELLEY] is pending, as I understand. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair does not so understand. 

Mr. WOOD. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Ways and Means gave 

con&ent that the gentleman from Pennsylvania should offer his amendment. 

Mr. KELLEY. And that a vote should be taken upon it. That was the expTess understanding of the committee. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair did not understand that statement to 

be made originallybythe gentlemanfromNewYork; but if that was the understanding the Chair will of course promptly conform to it. 

Mr. KELLEY. ·I understood the gentleman to admit th• amendment. Certainly it was the understanding of the committee that 

while they did not indorse the amendment, they would consent to a vote being taken upon it in the House. · Mr. WOOD. Probably this is the proper time for me to say that 

there are at least ten or fifteen members who desire to submit, in some form, amendments to this bill, and there are probably as many 

gentlemen, if not more, who desire to discuss the bill. Now, so far as the committee is concerned, there is no disposition to prevent 

discussion; but we have some eight or ten other bills of very great 

importance, and in view of the limited time allowed for making these 

reports, (to-day and this evening,) I submit whether t4e House should 

not, at the earliest practicable moment consistent with giving every 

gentleman an equal right on this floor, come to a vote on the passage 

of the bill. If the House is opposed to it, the sooner the Committee 

Qf Ways and Means knows that.fact the better; -if it is in favor of it, 

the Committee of Ways and Means will unquestionably consent to 

any reasonable ame:ndment. 

The SPEAKER. Does the Chair understand that the gentleman 

from New York is willing that amendments to the proposition originally introduced shall be voted on under the rules of the House Y 

Mr. WOOD. As the organ of the com·mittee, I feel bound to allow 

the gentleman from-Pennsylvania [Mr. KELLEY] to have a vote on his amendment. 'l'hen I would like the House to grant us the previous question; and the hour which would be allotted to me to close 

debate I am willing to give to other gentlemen for the purpose of 

testing the sense of the House upon any amenuments they may desire 

to sabmit, so that we can reach a final vote within the hour. 

I 

The SPEAKER. The. Chair,-however, asks again whether the gentleman is willing that the various amendments which have been 

suggested shall be vote.d upon without debate after the expiration of 

tbe hour which would be allotte-d him to close <lebate, if the previous. question should be sustained f 

Mr. HUBBELL. Will the gentleman from New York [Mr. 'Voon] 

yield for a question 1 

Mr. BURCHARD. This of course does not come out of my time f 

The SPEAKER. It does not. The Chair desires that ea-ch member 

of the House, if possible, may have an opportunity afforded to obtain a vote t~pon such amendment as he may wish to offer; and he thought, 

that in this respect he was in accord with the gentleman from New 

York, excep._ that the gentleman from New York has no such instructions from his committee. 

Mr. WOOD. I will explain my object. If the previous question 

be sustained by the House, I desire that in the hour which would be 

allotted to me for closing the debate, this bill 15hall be disposed of,.. either by passing it or defeating it, so that we may proceed to the 

consideration of other reports from the Committee of Ways. and 

Means. 

The SPEAKER. The effect of that would be to shut ont amendments unless the gentleman will allow them to be introduced before 

the previous question operat es, with the understanding that they 

shall be voted upon se'l'iatim. 

Mr. WOOD. As the organ of the committee, I cannot consent to. 

any amendment except that of the gentleman from Pennsylvania. ~fr. PHILLIPS. Will not the gentleman from New Ytirk allow a vote to be taken on my amendment ? 

Mr. SPRINGER. At the close of the hour I shall ask the :floor for 

the purpose of moving that the bill be referred to the Committee of 

the Whole House. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from New York will, of course,. be recognized to call the previous question; and if the House wants. 

to open the bill for amendment, it will vote down the previous ques- tion. 

1\fr. SPRINGER. The gentleman from New York has occupied his. 

hour and baa lost control of the bill. 

The SPEAKER. He has not lost control of the bill. 

1\Ir. SPRINGER. He has lost control of the :floor. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair understands it to be in accordauce with 

the uniform practice that a member reporting a bill should at some time have the right to test the sense of the House upon the bill by , calling the previous question. But the House has the matter within 

its own control. If it desires to amend the bill, or desires further deba~~z it will of course vote down the previous question; and thus 

the bill is thrown open for amendments and debate. 

Mr. BURCHARD. Mr. Speaker, my iime has not expired. . The SPEAKER. The gentlemo.n has five minutes remaining. 

1\Ir. BURCHARD. If the amendment of the gentleman from Pennsylvania shall be adopted then I shall ask for a vote on the substitute· I offer. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

SEC. 1. That the Secretary of the Treasury is hereby authorized and directed toissue in exchane;e for lawful money of the United States that may be presented for· such exchan~e certificates of deposit of the denomination of 10, bearing inter~t 

at the rate or 3 per cent. per annum, and convertible at any time with accrued in- terest into the 4 per cent. bonds described in the reftmding act; and the money SOo 

received shall bo applied only to the payment of 5-20 bondS in the mode prescribed by said act. And he is authorized to prescribe suitable ru1es and regulations in 

conformity with this act. - SEc. 2. That in lieu of the certificates of deposit authprized to be issued herein 

the Secretary of the Treasury shall, when required, cause'"the amount presented for 

exchange under the provisions of this act to be credited on the books of the Treasury in a savings deposit account, and shall allow interest thereon and credit the same quarterly at the rate of 3 per cent. per annum at the close of the calendatquarter for the highest amount remaininu to the credit of each depositor for the 

whole of such quarter. And the sum so deposited shall, subject to such rules and 

regu1ations as the Secretary of the Treasury shall prescribe, be withdrawn a.nd 

repaid to such depositor, or converted into the 4 per cent. bonds heretofore men- tioned: Pro ~tided, That whenever the sum of 1,000 shall be accumulated to the 

credit of any depositor, the Secretary may cause the sum to be converted into such 

4 per cent. bonds in payment of the whole amount due such depositors. 

1\Ir. BURCHARD. I yield the balance of my time, with the ex- ception of half a minute, which I yield to the chairman of the Com- mittee of 'Vays and Means to call the previous question, to the 

gentleman from New York, [Mr. To~SEND.] I reserve one-half 

minute to the gentleman, the chairman of the committee, to demand 

t.he previous quefftion. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from New York is recognized for 

half a minute. 

Mr. TOWNSEND, of New York. I desire to say I consider the 

prop0111ition introd,uced by the. gentleman from New York from the 

Committee of Ways and l\Ieans as looking in the right direction_ The object is not only to secure the refunding of the national debt, 

but to popularize the national loan and, as designed, to create an inducement among the great body of our people to sustain the Gov--

ernment and maintain order, and so far the bill has my entire approbation. I have but little fault to find with the bill. Now, if I am not to have two or three .minutes I do not wish to. 

speak further. I understand the gentleman from Illinois yields to me all his time except the final half minute in which to call the previous question. The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Illinois bad only one minute. left for both purposes. [Laughter.] The ·gentleman has only ha.Jf a. minute. 
1879. CONGRESSIONAL RECe>RD- HOUSE. 473 

Mr;WOOD. Then I demand the previous question. 

Mr. TOWNSEND, of New York. I ask by uu~nimous consent to 

have four or five minutes. 

There was no objection, and it was ordered accordingly. · Mr. TOWNSEND, of New York. Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not sympathize with any denunciations of the nationc'll banks. It is a great 

interest in this country and much greater than we sometimes are led 

to suppose until we have thought a little on the subject. The sav- ings deposits in this country I assume now amount probably to not 

less than $2,000,000,000. They probably amount to considerably more t han that sum, and the whole of that vast amount belongs to people 

of small means. Therefore we should walk softl:y whenever we walk 

over this interest. Allow me to say that, notwithstanding the fact 

that there have been failures among savings-banks, there is not an interest in this country not wholly resting upon the credit of the 

United States which has shown so small a percentage of loss as has 

been sustained by our people through the savings-banks. 

My only objection to the bill as it now stands is to the rate per cent. 

of interest allowed on the preliminary certificates proposed to be 

issued. I do not believe the object of the bill will be attained by 

offering on the preliminary certificates but 3 per cent. In my part 

of the country there is to be found in every town a reputable instit ution which will now receive deposits at 5 per cent. I do not believe we shall succeed in inducing the cla,ss of people it is sought to 

interest in this matter unless we pay 4 per cent.'()n the preliminary certificates, a.nd I see no objection to paying that amount. 

I am not one of those who believe the poor man is better than the 

1·ich man, but I do believe the poor man is just as good as the rich 

man, and I would pay upon $10 as high a rate of interest as I would 

upon fifty, or upon any other sum. I see no reason why we sh_ould 

not do it. I see no reason why the interest of the Government is not eustaiued in paying on every dollar intrusted to it as high a rate of 

interest as we pay on the larger amounts. And I do not say this as· my friend said who sits by me here in the spirit of demagogism. I 

do not understand what he said on that subject has any relation to 

the point I make. I say it because I desire if this bill passes that the 

project should succeed. I wish there were five millions of the people 

of the United States who held the lilecurities of the Government. The arg~r the number the better, and it is especially the poor, the men in 

moderate circumstances, whom it is desirable to interest in the Government securities, so that there may not be a feeling abroad to which 

demagogues can appeal, crying out from time to time that we have ooe law for the rich a.nd another law for the poor. 

I want to have a state of things in which we shall all feel that we pay as high a rate of interest on small amounts as we do on large. 

That is my only objection to the bill, and I hope that somewhere before this bill becomes a law we shall modify the rate of interest payable on the preliminary certificates. In other respects I am for the 

bill. 

[Here the hammer fell.] · Mr. WOOD. I :now demand the previous question. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from New York demands the previous question on the bill and the amendment offered by-the gentle- man from Pennsylvania, [Mr. KELLEY.] 

Mr. BURCHARD. Uy amendment is also pending. I offered it 

when I bad the floor in my own right. 

Mr. SPRINGER. If the previous question is voted down, I give 

notice that I --mill then move that the bill be committed to the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, where every member 

will have an opportm:~ ity to offer amendments. 

The SPEAKER. Did the gentleman from New York admit the 

amendment of the gentleman from lllinois f 

Mr. BURCHARD. I bad the right to the floor, and offered my 

amendment. The gentleman from New York had his hour, and when 

his hour expired another p:entleman having the floor had the right to 

offer an amendment. 

The SPEAKER. If that is the case the Chair has no objection, of course. 

Mr. WOOD. I desire that the Honse shall express its opinion as to 

the amendment of the gentleman from Pennsylvania and the amendment of the gentleman from Illinois. 

Mr. PHILLIPS. WID the gentleman from New York admit my 

amendment f 

The SI\EAKER. Two amendments are all that are allowable under 

the_rule. · Mr. SPRINGER. By voting down the previous question the gentleman from Kansas will· get an opportunity to offer his amendment. 

The SPEAKER. The effect of seconding the previous question will 

be to bring the House first to an immediate vote on the amendment 

of the gentleman from Pennsylvania as an amendment to original 

text and then to a vote upon the substitute of the gentleman from 

Dlinpis. ., 

Mr. -CANNON, of Illinois. I call for the reading of the substitute. 

The substitute offered by Mr. BuRCHAIID was again read. 

On seconding the demand for the previous question there were- ayes 103, noes 66. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I call for tellers. 

Tellers were not ordered, only 28 members voting therefor; not one- :fifth of a quorum. So the previous question was seconded. 

The SPEAKER. The question recurs," Shall tho main question be now putf" · Mr. SPRINGER. Upon that question I call for the yeas and nays. 

The yeas and nays were ordered. 

The question was taken j and there were-yeas 133, nays 99, not 

voting 56 ; as follows : . 

.Aiken, Aldrich, 

Baeon, 

Bagley, Bailey, Baker,John H. 

Ballou, 

Banks, 

Bayne, 

Bliss, 

Boyd. 

Brewer, 

Bridges, 

Bundy, 

Burchard, Burdick, Cain, Calkins, 

Camp, 

Campbell, Candler, 

Cannon, 

Caswell, 

Chittenden, 

Clafiin, 

Clark, Rush 

Cole, Conger, 

Cook, 

Cox.JaeobD. 

Crapo, 

Cumming~. 

Cutler, 

Danford, 

Atkins, 

Banning, 

Benedict, 

Bicknell, 

Blount, 

Boone, 

Bouck, 

Bragg, 

Briggs, 

Bright, 

Brogden, Buckner, 

Butler, 

Cabell, 

Caldwell, John W. 

Caldwell, W. P. 

Chalmers, 

Clark of Missouri, 

Clymer, 

Cobb, 

Collins, . Covert, 

Cravens, 

Crittenden, 

Culberson, 

YEAS-133. 

Davis, Horace 

Davis, Joseph J. 

Deering, 

Denison, Dunnell, Dwight, Eames, Eickhoff, 

Elam, 

Ellsworth, Evans, James L. 

Evins, John H. 

Foster, Frye. 

Garfield, Hale, Hanna, 

Harmt'r, Haskell, Hat<:her, Hazelton, Hendee, Hubbell, Humphrey, Hungetford, Hunter, James, Jones, John S. 

Jones, James T. .r orgensen, 

Joyce, 

Keightley, 

Kelley, 

Ketcham, 

Killinger, 

Kimmel, 

Knott, 

Landers, 

Lapham, 

Lathrop, Ligon, 

Lindsey, 

Luttrell, Lynde, 

Marsh, 

MartiD, 

McCook, 

Mc(1()wan, 

McKinley, 

Metcalfe, 

Mitchell. 

Monroe, 

:Morse, 

Neal, Norcross, 

O'Neill, Overton, 

Page, 

Patterson, G:w. 

Peddie, Phelps, Pollard, 

Pound. 

Price, Pu~h. - Rafuey, 

Randolph, 

Reed, 

NAYS- 99. 

Dean, Hooker, 

Dibrell, Honse, Durham, Hunton, Eden, Ittner, Ellis, Jones, Frank 

Ewing, Keifer, 

Felton, Kenna, 

Forney, Knapp, · Fort, Ma<:key, 

Fuller, Maish, 

Garth, Manning, 

Goode, McMahon. 

Hamilton. Mills, Hardenbergh, Money, Harr!s, Henry R. Morgan, Hams, John T. Morrison, 

Harrison, Muldrow, 

Hart, Patterson, T. M. 

Hartzell, Phillips, Hayes, Pridemore, 

Henderson, Rea, . Henry, !Wa-gan, Herbert, Rice, Americus V. 

Hewitt, Abram S. Roberts, 

Hewitt, G. W. Ross, 

NOT VOTING-56. 

Acklen, Davidson, Henkle, 

Baker, William H. Dickey, Hiscock, 

Beebe, Errett~ Lockwood. 

Bell, Evans, I. Newton Loring, Bisbee, Finley, Majors, Blackburn, Franklin Mayham, Blair, Freeman: McKenzie, 

Bland, Gardner, Muller, 

U.rentano, Gause, Oliver, 

Brow.ne, Gibson, Potter, Carlisle, Giddings, Powers, Clark, Alvah A. Glover, Reilly Clarke of Kentucky, Gunter, Rice,' William W. 

Cox, SamuelS. Ranis, Benj. W. Riddle, 

So the main question was ordered. 

Robbins, 

Robertson, 

Robinson, G. D. 

Ryan, 

Sampson, 

Sapp, 

Sayler, 

Sexton, 

Shallenberger, 

Sinnickson, 

Slemons, 

Smalls, Smith, A. Herr 

Starin, 

Stewart, 

Stone, John W. 

Stone, Joseph C. 

Townsend, Amos 

Tucker, 

Turney, 

Van Vorhes, Ward, 

Warner, White, lfichael D. 

w!nFa~n, w· . Andrew 

Williams, C. G. 

Williams, James 

:;~Benj.A. 

Wood.' 

Scales, 

Singleton, Smith, William E.. 

Southa.rd, 

Sparks, 

Springer, 

Steele, 

Stenger, 

Thompson, 

Throckmorton, 

Tipton, • Townsend. M. L 

Townshend, R. W ~ 

Turner, 

Vance, 

Walsh, 

White,.Harry 

Whitthorne, 

Williams, Jere N~ 

Willis, Albert S. 

Wilson, 

Wright, Yeates, 

Yonng, Johns. 

Robinson, M. s-.. Shelley, 

Stephens, 

Strait, 

Swann, 

Thornburgh, 

Veeder, 

Waddell, 

Wait, Walker, 

Watson, . Williams, Richard' 

Wren, 

Young, Casey. 

During the roll-call the following announcements were made : Mr. HARRIS, of Georgia. My colleague, 1\Ir. BELL, is detained at 

his room by sickness. • Mr. BEEBE. I am paired on all questions with my colleague from 

New York, [Mr. BACON.] If he were present, I should vote" no." 

Mr. CARLISLE. My colleague from Kentucky, Ur. McKENZIE, is- paired with Mr. PoWERS, of Maine. My colleague, Mr. CLARKE, is · detained at home by sickness, and is paired with :Mr. OLIVER, of Iowa. 

Mr. HARRIS, of Virginia. My colleague, Mr. WALKER, is paired 

with Mr. WAIT, from Connecticut. 

Mr. McKINLEY. My colleagues from Ohio, ~fr. GARDYER and Mr. 

DICKEY, are paired. 

Mr. RICE, oi Ma-ssachusetts. I am paired with ~lr. Fn."'LEY, of Ohio. 

If he were here, I should vote " ay." _ 

Mr. SAMPSON. My colleague from Iowa, :Yr. OLIVER, is paired 

with Mr. CLARKE, of Kentucky. 

Mr. CRAVENS. My coJleague from Arkansas, Mr. GAUSE, is detained at his room by sickness. · lir. HARDENBERGH. Mr. REJLLY, of Pennsylvania, has been. 

called to his home on important business. 
/ . 474 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE . JANUARY 15, 

Mr. McMA.lrON. My colleague from Ohio; Mr. }.,INLEY, is detained 

..at home by serious illness. 

The result of the vote wa~ then announced as above recorded. 

Mr. WOOD moved toreconsiderthevotejusttaken; and also moved 

-that the motion to reconsider be laid on the table. 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

The SPEAKER. The main question having been ordered, the vote 

will first be taken on the amendment of the gentleman from Penn- 'sylvania, [Mr . .KELLEY.] · The question being taken, there were-ayes 37, noes 102. 

Mr. KELLEY. I call for the yeaa and nays. 

The question being taken on ordering the yeas and nays, there 

were-ayes 28, noes 123; the affirmative not being one-third of the 

--entire vote. 

Mr. EWING. I call for t,ellers. 

Tellers were ordered; and Mr. KELLEY and :Mr. WooD were· ap- ·pointed. The House again divided; and the tellers reported-ayes 38, noes 140. 

So, the affirmative being more than one-fifth of the whole vote, the :yeas and nays were ordered. 

The question was taken; and it was decided in the negative-yeas ·82, nays149, not voting 57; aa follows: 

Atkins, ,Banning, • .Beebe, 

:Blackburn, 

Blount, 

llragg, 

Brignt, Butter, Cabell, 

•Caldwell, John W. 

Caldwell. W. P. 

Chalmers, 

·Clark of Missouri, 

Clymer, 

·Cobb, 

Collins, 

Covert, 

•Crittenden, 

Culberson, 

>Cutler, 

Davia, Joseph J. 

.Acklen, Aiken 

Aldrich, Bacon, Bagley, :Bailey, Baker, John H. 

Ballou, Banks, Bayne, 

.Benedict, 

Bie'knell, Blair . Boone, Boyd, .Brewer, :Bridges, 

Briggs, · Brogden, 

Browne, 

Buckner, Bundy, 

Burc~rd, 

Burdick, 

-cain <Camp, 

·Campbell, 

Candler, 

Cannon, 

Carlisle, · Caswell. 

Chittenden, 

Claflin, 

Clark, Rush 

.Cole, 

.COnger, ·Cook, ·Cox, Jacob D . 

YEAS--82. 

Dean, Dibrell. 

Dunnell, Eickhoff, 

=

Ewing, ·· Felton, Forney, ' 

Franklin, Fuller, Garth, 

Goode, Harris, Henry R. 

Harris, John'T. 

Hartzell, 

Haskell, Herbert, Hooker, House, Ittner, 

Keifer, Kelley, Kenna, Killinger, Ligon, 

Luttrell, Mackey, Maish, 

Martin, McMahon. Mills, Morgan, Mularow, Phelps, Phillips, Pridemore, Randolph, Reagan, Rice, Americus V. 

Singleton, Slemons, 

NAYS-149. 

Crapo, Jamea, Cravens, Jones, Frank 

Cummings, Jonea, JohnS. 

Danford, Jones, James T. 

Davia, Horace Jorgensen, Deering, ,Joyce, 

Denison, Keightley, Durham, Ketcham, Dwight, Knapp, Eames, Knott, Eden, Landers, Ellsworth, Lapham, Ev:ms, James L. Lathrop, Evins, John H. Marsh, Foster, McCook, Frye, McGowan, 

Garfield, McKinley, Gibson, Metcalfe, Gunter, Mitchell, Hale, Money, Hamilton, Mouroe, Hanna, Morrison, Hardenbergh, Morse, Harmer, Neal, Hart, Norcross, Hayes, O'Neill, Hazel.an, Overton, Hendee, Patterson, G. W. 

Henderson, Patterson, T. M. 

Henkle, Peddie, Henry, Pollard, Hewitt·, Abram S. Pound, Hewitt, G. W. Price, Hubbell, Pugh, 

Hunter, ~ ... Hunton, .n.eoo.. Humphrey, Robbins, HungeJ;ford, Roberts, 

NOT VOTING-57. 

Baker, William H. Finley, Lynde, Bell, Fort, MaJors, Bisbee, Freeman, Manning, Bland, Gardner, Mayham, Blis Gause, McKenzie, Bouck, Giddings, Muller, Brentano, Glover, Oliver, Calkins, Harris, Benj. W. Page, Clark, Alvah A. HaiJ.ison, Potter, ClarkeofKentucky, HaWher, Powers, Cox, SamuelS. Hiscock, Rainey, Davidson, Kimmel, Reilly, Dickey, Lindsey, Rice, William W. Errett, Lockwood, Riddle, 

Smith, William E. 

Southard, Sparks, Springer, Steele, Throckmorton, 

Tipton, 

Townshend, R. W. 

Vance, Walsh, White, Michael D. 

Whittborne, 

Williams, C. G. 

Williams, Jere N. 

Willis, Albert S. 

Wilson, Wren, 

~~~,~~· 

Robinson, G. D. Ross, Ryan, 

Sampson, Sapp. Sayler, Scales, Sexton, Shallenberger, Sinnickson, Smalls, Smith, A . Herr Starin, Stenger, Stewart, 

Stone, John W. 

Stone, Joseph C. Strait, Thompson, Townsend, Amos Turner, Turney, Van Vorhes, Ward, Warner, Watson, 

White, Harry 

w!fif!!~n. w· 'Andrew 

Williams, James Williams, Richard 

.;~Benj.A. 

wood,' 

Young, JohnS. 

Robinson, M. S. 

Shelley, Stephens, 

Swann, 

Thornburgh, Townsend., M. I. 

Tucker, Veeder 

Waddell, 

Wait, Walker, Young, Casey. 

· Evans, I . Newton Loring, Robertson, 

So the amendment was not agreed to. · During the roll-call the following announcements were made: 

Mr. MANNING. I am paired with Mr. CALKINS, who is absent on 

' 

account of sickness. If· he were present, he would vote "ay" and I 

should vote "no!' 

Mr. GUNTER. I wish to announce that my colleague, Mr. GAUSE, 

is absent on account of sickness. 

Mr. WARD. I am paired with my colleague, Mr. EvANs, who is 

absent on account of sickness. If he were here, I should vote "no." 

Mr. RICE, of Massachusetts. I am paired with Mr. FINLEY. If he were present, I would vote ''no." 

Mr. STONE, ·of Iowa. I am paired with Mr. DAVIDSON. If he were present, I should vote " no." Tb~ result of the vote was then announced as above recorded. 

MESSAGE FROM THE SENATE. 

A message from the Senate, by Mr. SYMPSON, one of its clerks, informed the House that the Senate pad agreed to the report of the 

committee of conference on the disagreeing votes of the two Houses on the amendments of the Senate to the bill (H. R. No. 5230} making 

appropriations for the support of the Military Academy for the fiscal 

year ending June 30, 1880, and for other purposes. 

RBFUlii"DING OF THE PUBLIC DEBT. 

The question recurr~ upon the amendment in the nature of a substitute offered by Mr. BURCHARD. 

Mr. GARFIELD. I ask the gentleman from .Illinois to withdraw 

that amendment in view of the fact that the amendment oi. the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. KELLEY] haa been voted down. 

Mr. BURCHARD. I gave notice that I should offer it as a substitute if the amendment of the gentleman.from Pennsylvania waa adopted. Of course, I. cannot withdraw it without unanimous con- sent. I trust I shall be allowed to withdraw it. 

Mr. PHILLIPS and others objected. 

Mr. BURCHARD. Personally I should prefer to have a vote upon it. 

Mr. EWING. I call for the yeas and nays upon the substitute. 

The question was put upon ordering the yeaa and nays, and 3i 

members voted therefor, not one-fifth of the last vote. 

Mr. EWING. I caU for tellers npon the yeas and nays. 

Tellerswereordered; andMr.EWINGandMr.WooDwereappointed. The House divided; and the tellers reported-ayes 46, noes not 

counted. 

So the yeas and nays were ordered. 

The question was taken; and it was decided in the negative-yea 

fJ7, nays 159, not voting 62; as follows: 

Bicknell, 

Blackburn, 

Blount, Bouck, Brag!/:. 

Brogden, 

Browne, 

Buckner, Bnrchard, Cain, Caldwell, John W . 

Caldwell. W. P. 

Cannon, 

Chalme-rs, Clymer 

Cobb, Cook, 

Aiken, Aldrich, Atkins, Bacon, 

Ba~ley, 

Bauey, Baker, John H. Ballou, Banks, Bayne. Benedict, Blair, Bliss, ~~, 

Boone, Boyd, Brewer, Bridges, Bri~, 

Bright, 

Bundy, '•• Burdick, 

Butler, Cabell, Camp, Campbell., Candler, 

Carlisle, Caswell 

Chittenden, Claflin 

Clark, 'Ru h 

Cole, Conger, Covert, Cox, Jacob D. Cummings, Danford, 

Davis, Horace Davis, Joseph J. Deering. 

YEA.S-67. 

Cra~ens, Hartzell, 

Crittenden, Haskell. 

Culberson, Hatcher, Cutler, Hayes, Dean, Henderson, Dunnell, Ittner, Ellis, Keifer, Ewing, Kelley, Forney, Kenna, Fort, Lynde, Franklin Mackey, Fuller, ' Marsh. 

Garth, McMahon, Hamilton, PhelJ;ls, Hanna, Phillips, 

Harris, Henry R. Pridemore, Harris, John T. Randolph, 

NAYS-159. 

Denison, Dibrell, 

Durham, 

Dwight~ 

Eames, Eden, Elam, Ellsworth, Errett, • Evans, James L . Evins, John H. 

Felton, Foster, Frye, Garfield, 

Goode, Gunter, Hale, Hardenbergh, Harmer, 

~n, Hendee, Henkle, Henry, Hewitt, Abram S. 

Hewitt, G. W. 

Hooker, House, Hubbell, 

Hnnter, Hunton, Humphrey, Hungerford, James, Jones, Frank Jones, JohnS. Jones, James T. 

Joyce, 

Keightley, 

Ketcham, Killinger, Knapp, Knott, 

Landers, Lapham, Lathrop, Ligon, Lindsey, Maish, Manning, 

Martin, 

McGowan, 

McKinley, 

:~~alfe, 

Mitchell. 

Money, Mouroe, Morgan, 

Morrison, 

Morse, Muldrow, Neal, Norcross, O'Neill, Overton:, 

Pa~, 

Pan.erson, G. W. Patterson, T. M. 

Pollard, 

Pound, Price, Pu,gh, 

Rainey, Reed. Robbins, Roberts, Rob~n G.D. 

Ros3, 

Rea, Reagan, Rice, Americua V. 

Robertson, Ryan, Sapp, Southard, Steele, Throckmonon, Tipton, Turney, White, Harry 

Whitthome, Willis, Albert S. 

Wilson, 

Wright. 

Sampson, Sayler, Scales, 

Sexton, Shallenberger, Singleton, Sinnickson, Slemons, Smalls, Smith, A. Herr Smith, William E . Sparks, Springer, Starin, 

Stenger, 

Stewart, 

Stone, John W. 

Strait, 

Thompson, Townsend,•M. I. 

Townshend, R. W . Tucker, 

Tomer, Vance, Van Vorhe , Walsh, Warner. Watson, \Vhite, Michael D. 

Wigginton, Williams, Andrew 

Williams, James Willia.ms, Jere N. Williams, Richard .;:~ Benj . A . 

WOO<i, • 

Yeates, Young, JohnS. 
1879. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 415 

NOT VOTING-62. 

.Acklen, Dickey, Lookwood, 

Baker, William H. Eickhoff, Loring. 

Banning, Evans, I. Newton Luttrell, 

Beebe, Finley, Majors, Bell, Freeman, Mayham, 

Bisbee, Ga,rdner, McCook. 

Bland, . Gause, McKenzie, Brentano, Gibson, Muller, .o()a.lldns, Giddings, Oliver, ..Clark, .AlvahA. Glover, Peddie, 

.CJ.a.rk of Missouri. Harris, Benj. W. Potter, ·Cla.rkeof Kentnckl, Haniaon, Powers, ~llins, Herbert, Reilly, ·Cox., SamuelS. Hiscock, Rice, William W. 

.Crapo, Jorgensen, Riddle, 

Davidson, Kiriimel, Robinson, M. S. 

So the substitute was not adopted. 

Shelley, 

Stephens, 

Stone, Joseph C. 

Swann, 

Thornbur_.gh, 

ToWJUienu, Amos 

Veeder, 

Waddell, 

Wait, 

Walker, Ward, 

Williams, C. G. 

Wren, 

Young, Casey. 

During the roll-call the following announcements were made : Mr. MANNING. I am paired with Mr. CALKINS, of Indiana, who •is absent on account of illness. If he were present, he would vote 

" no," as I am informed ; and as I would vote " no" likewise, I will .record my vote in the negative. - Mr. McCOOK. On this question I am paired with :Mr. AcKLEN, of 

.Louisiana. 

Mr. RICE, of Massa{lhnsett.s. I am paired with Mr. FTh"<LEY, of ·Ohio. · Mr. HUNTER. My colleague, Mr. ROBINSON, is detained at his 

·.room on account of indisposition. 

The result of the vote was then announced as above stated. 

Mr. SPRINGER. For the purpose of testing the sense of the House .on this bill, I move to lay it upon the table; and on that motion I .ca,ll for the yeas and nays. 

Mr. WOOD. The House has ordered that there shall be a recess taken at half pa.st four o'clock this afternoon. 

The SPEAKER. The main question is ordered on this bill; and it 

will come up immediately after the recess. Mr. WOOD. I rise to a point of order. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman will state it. 

Mr. WOOD. By an order of the House made unanimously to-day 

there must be a recess taken at half pa-st four o'clock. If the yeas 

and nays are called on the motion to lay the bill on the table, that 

hour will be reached before the call is concluded. 

The SPEAKER. The Ch:air will determine that question should it ~ a.s sta.ted by the gentleman from New York [Mr. WooD] when 

the hour of half past four is reached. . Mr. BUNDY. I move that the House now adjourn. 

The SPEAKER. 'l'he House has already ordered that a recess shall 

be taken from half past four until half past seven. Mr. BUNDY. But a motion to adjourn is in order, is it not T 

The SPEAKER. The Chair will entertain such a motion. 

Mr. BUNDY. Then I insist upon my motion. 

The question was taken upon the motion to adjourn ; and upon a -division there were-a.yes 79, noes 85. 

Before the result of this vote was announced, 

Mr. SPRINGER called for the yeas and nays on the motion to ad- _journ. 

The yeas and nays were ordered, there being 34 in the affirmative, more than one-fifth of the last vote. 

Mr. AIKEN. I desire to make a parliamentary inquiry. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair will hear the gentleman. , 

Mr. AIKEN. Shsuld the motion-to adjourn be carried, where will ·this bill beT · Mr. WOOD. I desir~ also to submit a question to the Chair, 

whether under the order of the Honse setting aside to-day for the 

consideration of reports from the Committee of Ways and Means--

The SPEAKER. The Chair desires to answer first the inquiry of 

the gentleman from South Carolina, [Mr. AIKEN.] Should the House now adjourn this bill will come up the first thing to-morrow morning 

after the reading of the J ournaJ, the main question having been or- red upon it. 

Mr. AIKEN. There would then be no night session to-nightf 

The SPEAKER. There would not be. 

Many MEMBERS. We do not want any. 

The Clerk proceeded to call the roll upon the motion that the House 

adjourn ; but before the call wa.s concluded, 

Mr. CONGER said: I rise to a pomt of order. 

The SPEAKER. The geBtleman will state it. 

Mr. CONGER. It is now half past four o'clock, and the House ha-s 

ordered tha.t a recess shall be taken from this time until half past seve~ this evening. 

The APEAKER. That is an unusual question of order, and has 

arisen but once before, so far as the memory of the Chair carries 

him, and that was in 1867, as will be seen from the following: 

Where a motion is made to adjourn before the hour for taking a recess has ar- rived, and the yeas and nays are ordered to be taken upon the motion, the roll-call must be completed, and the result of the vote must be announced by the ~hair, 

. even though the-roll·call is not completed until after the hour for takirig the recess has expired; and if the question is decided in the afl::i.rma.ti ve, the House stands ad-. _jonrned until the morrow.-Oongresrional Globe, first, session, Thirty-ninth Congress. 

The House to-day made order that there should be a recesl'l taken 

r.from half past four until half past seven this evening. There was • no motion made to reconsider and table that order, and the Chair 

entertains this motion to adjourn as the only motion which would 

enable the House to change its order and allow it to proceed. If the 

motion was one relating only to the pending bill in one of its stages, 

the Chair would declare the House in recess from this time. But the 

Chair thinks that the House should have an opportunity to change 

its mind in regard to a recess, more especially when such change 

would not affect the condition of the pending bill. 

The Chair will state incidentally that from the call of the roll, so far as it has been carried, the motion to adjourn would seem to be 

voted down. As soon as the roll-call is completed, should the motion 

to adjourn not prevail, the Chair will immediately declare the Honse 

in recess, that being t he first moment when the order for a recess can take effect. . The Clerk completed the call of the roll, which resulted-yeas 77, nays 127, not voting 84 ; as follows: 

Banning, 

Benedict, Bicknell, 

Blackburn, Boone, 

Boyd, Bra~g, 

Brignt, 

Bund,Y 

Burdick, 

Butler, 

Cabell, 

Cain, 

Caldwell, John W. 

Caldwell. W. P. 

Campbell, 

Clark of Missouri. 

Cook, 

Crittenden, 

Culberson, 

Aiken, 

.Aldrich, 

Atkins, Bacon, 

Bagley, 

B&'1ey, 

Baker, John H . Ballou, 

Banks, 

.Bayne, 

Beebe, 

Bliss, Blount, 

Brewer, 

Bridges, 

Briggs, 

Brogden, 

Browne, 

Buckner, 

'Burchard, 

Camp, 

Uandler, 

Cannon, 

Carlisle, 

Caswell, 

Chalmers, Cla1lin, 

eiark, Rush 

Clymer, 

Cobb, Cole, 

Collins, 

YEAS-77. 

Dwight, 

Elarii, 

Errett, 

Ewing, Felton, 

Forney, Fort, 

Franklin, 

Garth, Ha.rdenbergh, 

Harris, Henry R. · Hartzell, 

Hayes, Herbert, 

Hooker, House, 

Humphrey, 

Hungerford, 

James, Jones, Frank 

· Jones,JamesT. 

Jorgensen, Keffer, 

Kimmel, 

Lindsey, 'M.aiah, 

Marsh, 

McGowan, Metcalfe, Mitchell, 

MQrrison, Muldrow, 

Patterson, T. M. 

Pollard., 

Pridemore, 

ltea, 

Rice, Americus V. 

Ross, 

Scales, · Slemous, 

NAYS-127. 

Conger, Covert, Cox, Jacob D. 

Cravens, 

Cummings, 

Danfor<l, 

Davis. Horace Davis, Joseph J. 

Dean, 

Deering, Denison, Dibrell 

Dunnell, 

Durham, Eames, Eden, Ellis, 

Evans, James L. 

Evin.s, John H. Foster, _Frye, 

Garfield, Goode, Gunter, Hamilton, Hanna, Harmer, Harris, John T. 

Harrison, Hatcher, Hazelton, 

Hendee, 

Henkle, 

Henry, 

Hewi¢, Abram S. 

Hewitt, G. W. Hunter, Hunton, 

Ittner, 

Jones, JohnS: Joyce, 

Keightley, 

Kelley, 

Kenna, 

Jrillinger, Knott, 

Landers, Lap bam, 

Lathrop, Ligon, · Mackey, Majors, Martin, McCook, McKinley, Mills, 

Monroe, Norcross, O'Neill, O"erton, 

Page, Patterson, G. W. 

Phelps, Phillips, 

NOT VOTING-84. 

Acklen, . • Freeman, Maybam, Baker, WilliamH. lfnlier, McKenzie, Bell, Gardner, McMahon, 

Bisbee, Gause, Money, Blair Gibson, Morgan, Bland, Giddings, Morse, Bouck, Glover, Muller, Brentano, Hale, Neal, 

Calkins, Harris, Benj. W. Oliver, Chittenden, Hart, Peddie, Cla.rk, .Alvah A. Ha~kell, Potter, Cla.rkeofKentncky, Henderson, Powers, Cox, Samuel S. . Hiscock, Re~~an, 

Crapo, Hubbell, Rei..l.ly, 

Cutler, Ketcham, Rice, Willia.m W. 

Davidson, Knapp, Riddle, Dickey, Lockwood, Roberts, Eickhoff, Loring. Robinson, M. S. 

Ellsworth. Luttrell, Ryan, Evans,I.Newton Lynde, Sampson, Finley, Manning, Shelley, 

So the motion to adjourn was not agreed to. 

Smalls, . Smith, A. Herr Smith, William E . Sparks, 8pringer, 

Ste~r. Strait, 

Tipton, Townshend, R. W . Turner, . Vance, Watson, 

White, Harry · Whlte, Michael D. 

Wi!!Sinton, 

Willis, Albert S. Yeates. 

Pound, Price, Pu~h, 

Ramey, 

Randolph, 

Reed, 

Robbins, Robertson, Robinson, G. D. Sapp, Sayler, Se:lo..-ton, 

Shallenberger, Singleton, 

Sinnickson, Starin, Stewart, Townsend, Amos 

Townsend, M . L 

Tucker, Turney, Van Vorhes, Ward, 

Wbitthorne, Williams, Andrew 

Williams, C. G. 

Williams, Jere N. .. willis. Benjamin A. 

Willit , Wood, 

Young, John S. 

Southard, Steele, Stephens, Stone, John W. 

Stone, Joseph U. Swann, Thompson, Thornburgh, Throckmorton, Veeder, Waddell, 

Wait. Walker, Walsh, Warner, Williams, James Willia.ms, Richard 

Wilson, 

Wren, 

Wright, Young, Casey. 

And then, in accordance with previous order, the House (at four 

o'clock and forty minutes p. m.) took a recess until seven o'clock and 

thirty minutes p. m. 

EVE~J:NG SESSIOX . 

The Honse reassembled at half past seven o'clock p. m. 

CERTIFICATES OF DEPOSIT-REFUNDING THE PUBLIC DEBT. 

Mr. HENDERSON. I ask unanimonsconsenttointroduceabillf~ 

reference . 

The SPEAKER. The previous question is prevailing on the bill 
476 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. JANUARY 15;. 

pending when the Honse took a. recess, the bill (H. R. No. 5477) to 

authorize the issue of certificates of deposiitin aid of the refunding of 

the public debt. 

Mr. BRAGQ. I move that the Honse adjourn. 

The motion was not agreed to; there being-ayes 20, noes 47 ~ 

The SPEAKER. The question recurs on the motion of the gentle- man from Dlinois [Mr. SPRINGER] that the bill be laid on the table. 

The question being taken, there were-ayes 33, noes 39. 

Mr. SPRINGER. No quorum has voted. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Illinois makes the point that no quorum has voted. Nothing is in order except a call of the House or a. motion to adjourn. 

Mr. LUTTRELL. I move a. call of the Honse. 

The motion was not agreed to ; there being-ayes 34, noes 35. 

Mr. GARFIELD. I demand tho yeas and nays on the motion to lay 

the bill on the table. That will test the question whether there is a. quorum yresent. 

The SPEAKER. The question was taken on the motion to lay on the table, and no quorum vot.ed. The Chair will recognize the demand 

of the gentleman from Ohio for the yeas and nays on that motion. 

Mr. HARRIS, of Virginia. The yeas and nays upon that motion were refused before the recess. The SPEAKER. The Chair thinks that they were not refused, and 

the record does not show that they were. Mr. FRANKLIN. I move that the Honse now adjourn. 

Mr. SAYLER. On that motion I demand the yeas and nays. 

The yeas and nays were ordered. 

The question was taken; and there were-yeas 18, nays 146, not 

voting 124 ; as follows : YEAS-18. 

Benedict, 

Bicknell, B~g, 

Claik, Rush, Culberson, 

Acklen, 

.Ajken, Atkins, Ball<m, Bayne, Blair, 

Bliss, 

Blount, 

Boone, Bouck, Brewer, 

Bridges, 

Briggs, Briglit, 

Brogden, 

Browne, Buckner, Bundy, Burchard, Burdick, Butler, Cain, Caldwell, John W. 

Camp, · Campbell, 

Candler, Chittenden, Clymer, Cobb, Cook, Cole, .Collins, Conger, 

Covert, 

Cox, Jacob D. 

Cravens, 

Cummings, 

. Garth, 

Ranis, Henry R. 

Maish, 

Morrison, Neal, 

Springer, 

Steele, 

Townshend, R. W. 

NAYS-146. 

Cutler, , Hungerford, Danford, Hunter, 

J)avis, Joseph J. James, 

l>a.vis. HorMe Jones, JohnS. 

Deering, Joyce, Denison, Keightley, Dibrell, Kelfey, Dmmel.l, Kenna. 

Durham, ~er, 

Eames, Kimmel, Eden, Knapp, 

EITett, Knott, 

Evans, James L. Landers, 

Evins, John H. Lapham, Felton, Lathrop, 

Fort, Ligon, Foster, Luttrell, Garfield, Lynde, Gibson, Ma(lkey, G<lode,· Manning, 

Gunter, Marsh, 

Hamilton, Martin. 

Hanna, McCook, 

Hardenbergh, McG<lwan, 

Harris, John T. Monroe, Hart, Morgan, Hartzell, O'Neill, 

Haekell, Page, Hayes, Patterson, G. W. 

HaZelton, Patterson, T. M. 

Henderson, Phillips, Henry, Pound, Herbert, Price, Hewitt, Abram S. Pridemore, 

Hewitt, G. W. Pugh, Honse, Randolph, Humpnrey, Rea, 

~OT VOTING-H!4. 

.Aldrich, Dickey, Bacon, Dwig;ht, 

Keifer, Ketchani, Lindsey, Lockwood, Loring, Majors, May ham, McKenzie, 

McKinley, 

McMahon, 

Metcalfe, Mills 

Mitchell, 

Money, 

Morse, 

Muldrow, Muller, :Norcross, Oliver, 

Overton, 

Peddie, Phelp , Pollard, Potter, P owers, Rainey, 

Re~d. ReiD:y. 

~ley, Eickbo~ 

Bmley, Ela.m, Baker, John H. Ellis, 

Baker, William H. Ellsworth, Banks, Evans, L Newton 

Banning, Ewing, Beebe, Finley, :aen, Freeman, Blsl:iee, Frye, Blackburn, Fuller, Bland, Gardner, Boyd, Gause, Brentano, Giddings. Cabell, Glover, Caldwell, W. P. Hale, Calkins, Harmer, €annon, Harris,Benj. W. 

Caswell. Harrison, Carlisle, Hatcher, 

CClahaflin~ers , Hendee, , Henkle, Clark, Almh A.. Hiscock, 

Clarke of Kentucky,1;1ooker, Clark of Missouri, Hub be~, 

Cox, Samuel S. Hunton, Crapo, I ttner, Crittenden, ,Tones, Frank 

Davidson; J ones, James T. Dean, J orgensen, 

Rice. Americus V. ce; William W. Riddle, 

Turner, Vance, 

Williams, Jere N. 

Reagan, Robllins, Roberts, Robinson, G. D. Ross, 

Sampson~ 

Sapp, Sayler, Sexton, 

Sha.llenberger, Singleton, 

Sinnickson, 

Slemons, 

Smith, .A. HeiT 

Southard, 

Starin 

Stewait, 

Strait, 

Thompson, Tipton, 

Townsend, Amos 

Townsend, M. I. Ward, 

Warner, White, Michael D. 

Whitthorne, 

Wi.lli.am.s, .Andrew 

Williams, C. G. 

Williams, James 

Willis, .Albert S. 

Willis, Benj. A. 

Willits, Wilson, Wood, Young, JohnS. 

Robertso11, 

Robinson, M.S. 

Ryan, 

Seal~. 

Shelley, Smalls, Smith, William E. 

Sparks, Stenger, Stephens 

St{)ne, John W. 

Stone, Joseph C. 

Swann, 

Thornburgh, 

Throckmorton, 

Tucker, 

Turney, Van Vorhes, Veeder. 

Waddell, 

Wait, 

Walker, Walsh, Watson, White, Harry , 

;tlj~~tUchard Wren, Wright, 

Yeat.es, Young, Ca ey. 

So the motion to adjourn was not agreed to. 

During the roll-call, the following announcements were made: 

Mr. DAVIS, of North Carolina. My colleague, Mr. ScALES, is con- fined to his room by sickness. 

Mr. ACKLEN. My colleague, Mr. E~\I, is detained at his hollBe· by sickness. 

Mr. HARRIS, of Georgia.. My coJleagne, Mr. BELL, is detained a i; 

his room by sickness. · Mr. PRICE. The gentleman from Missouri, Mr. CB.Fl'TE...--a>EN, and· the gentleman from Kansas, Mr. RYAN, are paired. 

Mr. DEERING. The gentleman from Massachusetts, Mr. RICE, is 

paired with the gentleman from Ohio, Mr. FINLEY. 

Mr. PATTERSON, of New York. The gentleman from Vermont,. Mr. HENDEE, is paired with the gentleman from Louisiana; l\Ir. ELA.M. 

Mr. McGOWAN. l\1y colleague from Michigan, Mr. STONE, is 

paired with the gentleman from Alabama, Mr. SHELLEY: 

Mr. KILLINGER. My colleague, 1\Ir. WATSON, is detained from· the Honse by illness. 

Mr. WILLIAMS, of Ore~on. I am paired on this vote with t he gen- tleman from Illinois, Mr. ~PARKS. 

Mr. DURHAM. l\ly colleague, Mr. CARLISLE, is quite sick to-nightr and unable to attend the session of the Honse. 

Mr. l\IAISH. My colleague, Mr. STENGER, is detained at his room by indisposition. · 

Mr. BOONE. My colleague, Mr. McKENZIE, is paired with the gentleman from Maine, Mr. PoWERS. 

Mr. HEWITT, of New York. The gentleman fromMississippi, Mr •. CHAL.\IERS, is detained at home by sickness. 

Mr. COBB. · My colleague, Mr. FULLER, is detained at home bysickness in his family. 

Mr. HUMPHREY. The gentleman from Ohio, Mr. VAN VORHESr desired to be excused from atte-ndance this evening on account of 

sickness. 

Mr. VANCE. My colleague, :Mr. YEATES, is detained from the Houseby sickness. 

Mr. COOK. My colleague from Georgia, Mr. SMITH, is detained a t' 

his room by indisposition. · The 11esult of the vote was announced as above stated. 

The question. recurred on the demand for the yeas and nays on themotion to lay the bill on the table. 

The yeas and nays were ordered. 

The question was taken ; and it was decided in the negative--

yeas 72, nays 115, not voting _101 ; as follows : 

Acklen, .Ajken, 

Atkins, Benedict, Bicknell, 

YEA~2. 

Evins, John H. 

Felton, 

Forney, Franklln, 

Garth, 

Goode, 

Ross, Singleton, Slemons, 

Southard, Springer, Blackburn, Blount, 

Boone, Bragg, 

Briglit, 

_ Hardenbergh, 

Harris, Henry R. 

Harris, John T. 

Hart, 

Jones, Frank 

Keifer, 

Kelley, 

Kenna, 

Knapp, 

Knott, Ligon, 

:a~y, 

Mills, ' 

Morgan, . Morrison, 

Muldrow, 

Steele, 

Strait 

Tipto~ . Townshend, R. ~ 

Turner, Butler, Caldwell, John W. 

Culberson, Dean, 

Hartzell, 

Henkle, 

Henry, 

Herbert, 

Hewitt, Abram S. 

Vance, Warner, 

Dibrell, 

Durham, Eden, Errett, 

• Hewitt, G. W. 

Honse, Ittner, 

Patterson, T. M. 

Pridemore, Rea,gan, 

Rice, Americus V. 

Roberts, 

Wig~ too. Williams, Jere N •. Willis, .AlbertS. 

Wilson, 

Wright, 

Bacon, 

Bagley, Ballou, 

Banks, 

Bayne, Blair, Bliss, Brewer, Bridges, Briggs, Brogaen, 

Browne, Buckner, Bundy, Burchard, 

Burdick, Cain, Camp, 

Campbell, 

Candler, Cannon, 

Chittenden, Clark, Rush 

Clymer, Cobb, Cole, Conger, 

Covert, 

Cravens, 

Aldrich, 

Bailey, Baker, John H. 

Baker, William H. 

Banning, Beebe, Bell, Bi<>bee, 

:N.A.YS-115. 

Cummings, Joyce, Cutler, Kei.ghtley, Danford, Kewham, 

Davis, Horace Killinger, 

Davis, Joseph J. Kimmel, ~erin~ Landers, 

Denison, Lapham, 

Dunnell, Lathrop, 

Eames, Lindsex, 

Evans, James L. Luttrell, 

Fort., Lynde, 

Foster, Maish, 

Garfield, Marsh, Gibson, McCook, 

Gunter, Metcalfe, 

Hale, Mitchell, 

Hamilton, Monroe, Hanna, Neal., 

Harrison, Norcross, Haskell, O'Neill, 

Hatcher, Overton, 

Hayes, P~e. 

Hazelton, Patterson, G. W. 

Henderson, Peddie, 

Humphrey.?. Phillips, Hungerforu, Pound, Hunter, Price, James, . Rainey, Jones, John S. Randolph, 

.NOT VOTING-101. 

Young, JohnS. 

t:d, 

Robbins, 

Robinson, G. D.. 

Sampson, 

Sapp 

Sayler, 

Sexton, 

Shallenberger~ 

Sinnickson, Smalls, Smith, A. Herr 

Starin, 

Stewart, 

Thompson, Townsend, AmO&,. Tucker, 

Turney, Ward, 

White, Harry, White, Miohael Di 

Whitthorne, , Williams, Al1drew 

Williams, C. G. 

Willla.ms, James 

~llif~· Benj. A. 

Woou.' 

Bland, Bouck, 

'!3eyd, 

Ca-swell, Cox, Jacob D. 

Brentano, 

Cabell, Caldwell, W. P . .calkins, 

Carlisle, 

Chalmers, Cox, Samuel & 

Claflin Crapo, Clark, 'Alvah A. Crittenden, CJ.a.rk of .Missouri, Davidson, 

Clarke of Kentucky, Dickey, Collin , Dwi~ht. 

Cook, Eickhoff, 
il879. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 477 

:Elam, Hubbell, Pollard, .Ellis, Hunton, Potter, "Ellsworth, Jones, James T. Powers, .Evans, L Newton Jorgensen, Pugh, .Ewing, Lockwood, Reilly, · ·Finley, Loring, Rice. William W . Freeman, Majors, Riddle, Frye Manning, Robertson, Fn1I~r, Mayham, Robinson, M.S. •Gardner, McGi>wan, Ryan, ·Gause, McKenzie, Scales, ·Gidding , McKinley, Shelley. • Glover, McMahon, Smith, William E. Harmer, Money, Sparks, Harris, Benj. W. Morse, Sten§er, . Hendee, Mnller, Step ens, Hiscock, Oliver, Stone, John W. 

.Hooker, Phelps, Stone, Joseph C. 

Swann, 

Thornburgh, Throclonorton, 

Townsend, M. I . 

Van Vorhes, Veeder. 

Waddell, Wait, 

'Walker, Walsh, 

Watson, 

Williams, llichard 

W:ten, 

Yeates, Young, Casey. 

So the House refused to lay the bill on the table. During the vote, 

Mr. BANNING said: I am paired with Mr. CLARK, of Missouri. If 

1he were present, he would vote in the affirmative and I would vote in ·the negative. 

Mr. MULDROW. My colleague, Mr. CHALMERS, who is absent ou .account of sickness, is paired with Mr. CASWELL. If present, Mr. ~RS would vote in the affirmative. • Mr. VANCE. My colleague, Mr. YEATES, is detained from the Honse on account of sickness. 

Mr. DAVIS, of North Carolina. My colleague, Mr. ScALES, is con- &ed to ·his room by sickness. 

:Mr. COOK. I am paired w\th my colleague, Mr. Sl\IITH. If he were present, he '\Wuld vote in the negative and I would vote in the 

.s.ffirmati ve. · Mr. DURHAM. My colleague, Mr. CARLISLE, is sick and unable to 

ibe present thi.s evening. My other colleague, Mr. McKENZIE, is paired 

with Mr. POWERS on all political.questions. 

Mr. HATCHER. My colleague, Mr. CmTTE....~mEN, is paired with 

Mr. RYAN, of Kansas. 

Mr. MANNING. I am paired with :Jirlr. CALKINs, who is. absent on account of sickness. If he were present, he would vote "no" and I 

would vote" ay." 

Mr. ACKLEN. My colleague, Mr. ELAl\I, is absent by reason of 

sickness. 

Mr. PUGH. I am paired with Mr. CABELL, of Virginia. If he were ;Present, 1 would vote in tho negative and he would vote in the affirmative. 

Mr. COX, of Ollio. I am paired with Mr. HUNTON, of Virginia. He 

wooJd vote "ay" and I would vote "no." 

:Mr. HARRIS, of Virginia. My colleague, l\Ir. WALKER, is paired 

r.vith Ml. WAIT, of Connecticut. 

l!l'. WILLIAMS, of Oregon. I am paired with Mr. SPARKS, of Illi- mois. If he were here, I would vote " no." 

Mr. TOWNSEND, of New York. I am paired with Mr. HoOKER, of 

Mississippi. If he were present, I would vote" no.'' 

Mr. HUNTER. My colleague, Mr. Cms, is paired with Mr. MAN- 'NING. If he were here, he would vote "no.'' 

.Mr. PRICE. Mr. :RYA.N1 of Kansas, is paired with Mr. CRITTENDEN, .of Missouri. 

Mr. HUMPHREYS. My colleague, Mr. CASWELL, who is paired with 

Mr. CHALMERS, of Mississippi, would, if present, vote'' no." 

Mr. PATTERSON, of New York. Mr. HENDEE is paired with Mr. 

ELAM. 

:Mr. ROBBINS. My colleague, Mr. WADDELL, is detained from the 

:House by indisposition. 

Mr. TUCKER. I have been requested to state that Mr. HoOKElt, 

-of Mississippi, is paired with Mr. 'l'OWNSEND, of New York. 

The vote was then announced as above recorded. 

The bill was then ordered to be engrossed and read a third time. 

Mr. WOOD demanded the previous question on the passage of the 

\bill. 

. The previous question was seconded and the main question ordered. 

Mr. BRIGHT demanded the yeas and nays. 

The Honse divided ; and there were ayes 34, noes not counted. 

Mr. SPRINGER demanded tellers on the yeas and nays. 

Tellers. were ordered; and Mr. WooD and Mr. BRIGHT were apa>e>inted. 

The question was again put; and the tellers reported ayes 45. 

So the yeas and nays were ordered, more than one.-fifth of those 

d>resent having voted in the affirmative. 

The question was taken; and it was decided in the affirmativeyeas 116, nays 71, not voting 101 ; as follows : 

Aldrich, &con, 

Bagley, 

.BaJ.lou, .ffianks, 

Bayne, 

~~· . Brewer, 

Bridges, 

Briggs, 

Brogaen, 

.lkowne, 

YEAS-116. 

Buckner, Bundy, 

Burchard, 

Burdick, 

Cain, 

Caldwell, W. P. 

Camp, 

Campbell, Candler, 

Cannon, 

Claflin, Clark, Rush 

Clymer, 

Cobb, Collins, Conger, Covert, Cravens, Cummings, Cutler, Danford, Datis, Horace 

Davis, Joseph J. 

Deering, Denison, 

Dunnell, 

Eames, Evans, James L. 

Fort, 

Foster, Garfield,· Garth, 

Gibson, Gunter, Hale, Hamilton, Hanna, Hatcher. Hayes, 

Hazelton, Henderson, 

Humphrey, Hungerford, Hunter, James, Jones, J obn S. Joyce, Keightley, 

Ketcham, Kill1nger, Kimmel, Landers, Lapham, Lathrop, Lindsey . 

Acklen, Aiken, Atkins, Benedict, Bicknell, 

Blackburn, Blount, 

Boone, B:ra"'g, Bri~t, Caldwell, John W. 

Chittenden, Culberson, Dean, Dibrell, 

Durham, Eden, Errett, 

Luttrell, 

~:· Marsh', 

McCook, 

Metcalfe, Mitchell, Monroe, Neal, Norcross, O'Neill, Overton, Paae, Pafterson, G. W. 

Peddie, Pkillips, 

Pound, 

Prico, Rainey. Randolph, Rea, Reed, 

Rice, Americus V. 

Robbjns, Robinson, G. D. 

Sampson, 

Sapp, 

Sayler, Sexton, ot 

Shallenberger, Sinnickson, Smalls, 

NAYS-71. 

Evins, .John H. Kelley, FeltO!t, Kenna, 

Forney, Knapp, Franklin, Knott, Goode, Ligon, Hal-denbergh, Mackey, Harris, Henry R. Martin, 

Harris, John T. McGowan, Hart, McMahon, Hartzell, lfiJ.la, Henkle, Morrison, Henry, Morse, Herbert, Muldrow, Hewitt, Abram S. Patterson, T. M. Hewitt, G. W. · Pridemore. House, Reagan, Ittner, Roberts, Jones, Frank Ross, 

NOT VOTING-101. 

Bailey, Davidson, .Tones, .TamesT. 

Baker, William H. Dickey, Jorgensen, Baker, John H. Dwight, Keifer, Banning, Eickhoff, Lockwood, Beebe, Elam, Loring, Bell, Ellis, Majors, l&isboo, Ellsworth, Manning, Bland, Evans, !.Newton, Mavham, Bouck, Ewing, Mckenzie, Royd, Finley, McKinley, 

Brentnno, Freeman, Money, Butler, Frye, Morgan, Cabell, Fuller, Muller, Calkins, Gardner, Oliver, Carlisle, Gause, Phelps. Caswen, Giddings, Pollard, Chalmers, Glover, Potter, Clark, Alvah A. Harmer, Powers, Clarke of Kentucky, Harris, Benj. W. Pugh, Clark of Missouri, Ha.trison, Reilly, Cole, Haskell, Rice, William W. 

Cook, Hendee, Riddle, Cox, Jacob D. Hiscock, R~bertson, 

Cox, Samuel S. Hooker, Robinson, M. S. 

Crapo, Hubbell, Ryan, Crittenden, Hunton, Scales, 

Smith, A.. Herr 

Starin, Stewart, Townsend, Amo 

Tucker, Turney, Ward, White, Harry White, Michael D. Williaq~s, Andrew 

Williams, C. G. Williams, James Willis. Benj. A . Willits, Wood, 

Wright. 

Singleton, Slemons~ 

Southaru, Springer, Steele, fitrait, Tipton, Town hend, R. W . Turner, Vance, Warner, Whltthorne, Wi gginton. Williams, J ere N. 

Willis, Albert S. Wilson, Young, John S. 

Shelley, Smith, William E . Sparks, Stenger, · Stephens, Stone, John W . Stone, Joseph C. Swann, 

Thompson, Thornburgh, 

Throckmorton, Townsend, M. I . Van Vorhes, Veeder, Waddell, 

Wait, 

Walker, Walsh, Watson, Williams, Richard 

Wren, Yeates, 

Young, Casey. 

So the bill was passed. · · During the roll-call the followiu~ annomtcements were made : Mr. DAVIS, of North Carolina. l\Iy colleague, Mr. ScALES, is con- fined to his room by sickness. 

Mr. BANNING. On this question I am paired with Mr. CLARK, of 

Missouri. If he were here, I should vote "ay" and he would vote 

"no." . Mr. HATCHER. My colleague from Missouri, Mr. CRITTENDEN, is 

paired with Mr. RYAN, of Kansas. 

Mr. MANNING. 1I am paired with Mr. CALKIN's, of Indiana. If he were present, he would vote "ay" and I should vote "no.'' My colleague from Mississippi, Mr. 'MONEY, is absent, and is paired with 

Mr. HUBBELL, of Michigan. If present, Mr. MONEY would vote "no" 

and Mr. HUBBELL, I presume, would vote "ay.'' I should have stated 

in the last vote that Mr. MONEY would have voted "ay" on the mo- tion to lay the bill on the table. 

Mr. MULDROW. My colleague from Mississippi, Mr. CHALMERS, 

is paired with Mr. CASWELL, of. Wisconsin. Mr. CHALl\IERS is absent on account of sickness. If he were present, he would vote "no.'' 

Mr. COOK. I a.m paired on this question with my colleague· from 

Georgia., Mr. SMITH. If he were present, he would vote " ay" and I 

should vote "no." 

Mr. COBB. My colleague from Indiana, Mr. FULLER, is absent on account of sickness in his family. 

Mr. HENKLE. On this question Mr. MORGAN, of Missouri, and Mr. 

HARRISON, of illinois, are paired. 

Mr. TUCKER. Mr. HooKER, of Mississippi, is paired with Mr. 

ToWNSEND, of New York. If present, Mr. HOOKER would vote "no." 

Mr. PUGH. I am paired with Mr. CABELL, of Virginia. If he were present, he would vote "no" aud I should vote "ay.'' · Mr. HARRIS, of Virginia. My colleague, Mr. WALKER, is paired 

with Mr. WAIT, of Connecticut. 

Mr. COX, of Ohio. I am paired with Mr. HUNTON, of Virginia. If 

he were present, he wonld vote "no" and I should vote "ay." 

Mr. CUMMINGS. Mr. WILLIA...'Is, of Oregon, is paired with Mr. 

SPARKS, of lllinois. · · . Mr. COLE. I am paired with my colleague from Missouri, Mr. GLo- VER. 

Mr. HALE. My colleague fi:om Maine, Mr. PO,WERS, is paired with 

Mr. McKENZIE, of Kentucky 

• 
478 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. J ANU.ARY 15,. 

Mr. TOWNSEND, of New York. I am paired with Mr. HOOKER, of 

Mississippi. If he were present,~ should vote" ay." 

Mr. KEIFER. I am paired with my colleague from Ohio, Mr. McKlNLEY, who is detained from the House to-ni9ht by the illness of 

his wife. If he were here, he would vote " ay ' and I should vote 

"no." . Mr. HUMPHREY. My colleague from Wisconsin, Mr. CASWELL, is 

paired with~· CHALMERS, of Mississippi. If present, Mr. CASWELL 

would vote ay " and Mr. CliAL..'fERB, I suppose, would vote "no." 

Mr. WARD. ·My co1leagtte from Pennsylvania, Mr. EVANS, is absent from his eat on a-ccount of illness. If present, he would vote " ay.n Mr. PRICE. Mr. CRI~"'DE:N7 of Missouri, and Mr. RYA....1'{, of Kansas, are paired on this question. 

Mr. PATTERSON, of New York. :Mr. ELA11r, of Louisiana, and Mr. 

HENDEE, of Vermont, are paired. . Mr. DURHAM. My colleague from Kentucky, Mr. CARLISLE, is det ained from the Honse by sickness. If present, he would vote " no." 

My colleague, Mr. McKENZIE, and Mr. POWERS, of Maine, are paired on all political questions: Mr. HEWITT, of New York. I am requested to state that Mr. 

CHALMERS, of Mississippi, is. detained from the House by sickness. · 1\Ir. VANCE. My colleague from North Carolina, Mr. YEATES, is 

detained from the Honse by illness. If present, he would vote "no." 

The result of the vote was then announced as above recorded. 

Mr. WOOD moved to reconsider the vote just taken; and also moved 

t hat the motion to reconsider be laid upon the table. 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

P.ATIIENT OF DUTIES IN U:NITED STATES NOTES. 

Mr. WOOD. I am directed by the Committee of Ways and Means 

to report back with a favorable recommendation the bill (H. R. No. 

5548) to make United States notes receivable for duties on imports. 

The bill was read, as follows : 

B e it enacted, tf:c. , That on and after the passage of this act United States notes , shall be receivable for duties on imports; and all acts and parts of acts inconsistent 

with this act are hereby repealed. 

Mr. WOOD. I shall not detain the House with any explanation ~Jf 

this bill. Upon its face it fully explains its purpo~ and object. I 

cm.rthe previous .question on the engrossment and third readmg: 

Mr. GARFIEiuD. I desire to offer an amendment to the bill by 

inserting the 'Words " so long aa such notes are equivalent to coin." 

ManyMEMBERS. No! No! 

Mr. GARFIELD . . I do not propose for one to shut off our supply 

of coin to meet our interest in case any calamity should h~ppen to us. Unless that limitation can be put upon the bill, I hope it .will not 

pass. 

Mr. BRIGHT. I ask that the bill be again read. 

The bill was again read. 

Mr. GARFIELD. The amendment I desire tO offer is to insert after 

the word "imports" the words "so long as said notes shall be ex- changeable at par in coin." · [Cries of " Regular order ! "] 1 

. The SPEAKER. The gentleman from New York [Mr. WooD] demanded the previous question. If the Honse desires to amend the 

bill, it can reach that by voting down the previous question. 

Mr. BURCHARD. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Ways and 

Means authorized its chairman, the gentlemap. from New York, to 

yield for this amendment. 

[Cries of "Regular order!"] 

The SPEAKER. The Chair has no knowledge o! that point. 

Mr. WOOD. If the gentleman from Illinois will permit, the chair- man will explain. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair has nothing to do with what occurred 

in committee. 

Mr. GARFIELD. I said nothing about what occurred in committee. I asked the gentleman from New York to yield for the amendment I indicated. 

The S:PEAKER. Does the gentleman from NewYorkyield for the 

amendment f 

Mr. WOOD. I have no objection to the gentleman from Ohio having a vote upon his amendment. When this subject was up in the 

committee that gentleman made the request of the committee that 

he should be permitted to offer the amendment, and the committee 

accorded to him that right. But it is for the House to determine 

what disposition it will make of this amendment, and I hope it will 

not be adopted. 

Mr. O'NEILL. That is a poor way to get out of it. It is a backdown. 

The SPEAKER The House can vote down the previous question 

if it wishes. 

Mr. GARFIELD. If the gentleman will not admit my amendment, 

I move to lay the bill upon the table. 

Mr. LUTTRELL. Upon that motion I demand the yeas and nays. The yeas and nays were ordered. 

Mr. BURCHARD. I hope the gentleman from Ohio [Mr. GARFIELD 1 

will 'Withdraw his motion until we see whether the Housewillorwill 

not refuse to sustain the previous question. [Cries of" Regular order!' ] 

• 

~.GARFIELD. If the gentleman from New York will give me leave to offer my amendment I will withdraw my motion. [Cries of 

" Object I" and "Re~ar order!"] Gentlemen cannot cough me down. I withdraw my mot10n, oo.d, as I understand, with the permission of 

the gentleman from New York, offer my amendment. [Cries of" Too 

late I"] It is not too late; the roll-call had not been commenced. 

Mr. RICE, of Ohio. Can a motion be withdrawn after the yeas 

and nays have been ordered upon it f 

The SPEAKER. It can be withdrawn at any time before ~e rollcall is commenced. 

Mr. EDEN. But the yeas and nays have been ordered. 

Mr. MILLS. I understand the gentleman from New York (Mr. WooD] to demand the previous question. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair will cause Rule 40 to be read. 

The Clerk read Rule 40, as follows: 

After a motion is stated by the Speaker or read by the Clerk, it shall be deemed 

t~i:. ~~e~!~~~:t.of the House ; but may ?e withdrawn at any time before a 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman has a right to withdraw his motion, and the Chair now desires to know what the disposition of the 

gentleman from New York is, as to admitting the amendment submitted b~ the gent·leman from Ohio. 

Mr. WOOD. If the House will listen to me for one moment I will 

endeavor to ~xplain the position of this matter as it stands. I do 

yield, as the organ of the committee, to the gentleman from Ohio t& 

offer his amendment, and test the sense of the House upon it, and now upon the bill and amendment I call the previous question. 

The previous question was seconded and the main question order~ 

being upon 1\fr. GARFIELD's amendment. · 

ENROLLED BILL SIGNED. 

l\Ir. KENNA, from the Committee on Enrolled Bills, reported that 

the committee hacl examined and fpund truly enrolled a bill of the 

following title; when the Speaker signed the same: A bill (H. R. No. 5230) making appropriations for the support of the 

Military Academy for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1&30, and for 

other purposes. · 

CONSULAR A:ND DIPLOMATIC BILL. 

The SPEAKER appointed as the members of the House upon the 

committee of conference upon the disagreeing votes of the two Honsee 

upun the amendments of the Senate to the bill (H. R. No. 5312) making appropriations for the consular and diplomatic service of the 

Government for the year ending June 30, 1880, and for other pnrpeses, Mr. SINGLETON, Mr. HALE, and Mr. CLYMER. 

WITHDRAWAL OF PAPERS. 

By unanimous consent, leave wa~ granted to withdraw frrim the 

files of the House papers in the following cases, in which no adver 

reports had been made: 

To Mr. SHELLEY, in the case of Lucinda McGuire ; and 

To Mr. PHELPs, in the case of George Cowles. 

LEAVE OF ABSENCE. 

By unanimous consent, leave of absence was granted for three days 

to l\Ir. REILLY. 

PAYMENT OF DUTIES IN U:NITED STATES NOTES. 

The Honse resumed the consideration of the bill (H. R. No. 5549) 

to make United States notes receivable for duties on imports. 

The question was upon the amendment offered by Mr. GARFIELD• 

to insert in the fourth line, after the word ''imports," the following : " so long as said notes shall be exchangeable at par in coin." 

.Mr. HARRISON. I would like to ask the gentleman one question. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman may only do ·that by unanimous 

consent. . l\lr. HARRISON. l\Iy question is, if he has any doubt that we have rea~hed resumption f . Mr. GARFIELD. I have no doubt of the success of resumption, . unless by hostile legislation resumption shall be destroyed. 

l\lr. SPRINGER. I demanil the yeas and nays. 

The yeas and nays were ordered. 

The question was taken; and there were----; yeas 76, nays 122, not v• ing 90; as follows: 

YE.AS-76. 

Aldrich, 

Bacon, 

:Bagley, 

:Ballou, 

Banks, 

:Bayne, 

~ct, 

Bliss' 

Briggs, 

Bruidy, 

:Burchard, :Burdick, Cain, 

Camp, Campbell, 

Chittenden, 

Claflin, 

Olark,Rush 

Cole, 

Conger, 

Covert, 

Cox, Jacob D. 

Davis, Horace Denison, 

Eames, Errett, 

Evans, .Tames L. 

Foster, Garfield, 

Hale, 

Ha.rdenbergh, 

Hart, 

Harelton, 

Hewitt, Abram S. 

Hunter, 

Humphrey, 

Hungerford, 

James, 

Jones, Frank 

Jones, .T ohu S. 

Joyce, Keifer, 

Keightley, 

Lapham, Lathrop, 

Lindsey, 

.McCook, McGowan, 

Metcalfe, 

Mitchell, 

Monroe, Morse, 

:q"oroross, 

O'Neill, 

Overton, . P age, 

Peddie, 

Reed, 

Robinson, G. D. Ross, 

Sexton, 

Shall en berger, Sinnickson, 

Smalls, 

Smith, .A. Hen 

Starin, 

Stewart, 

Strait, 

Townsend, Amoe 

Ward, 

White, Michael D. Williams, Andrew Williams. C. G. 

Williams, .Tame& • Willis, BeD-j. A-
1879. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-. HOUSE. 479t 

NAYS-122. Mr. BOONE. :My colleague, Mr. McKENZIE, is paired with Mr •. Acklen, POWERS, of Maine. 

Aiken, 

Atkins, 

Bannin_g, 

Bicknell, 

Blai:kburn, 

Blount, 

Boone, 

~~~J· Dunnell, 

Durham, 

Eden; 

Ellis, 

Evins, John H. 

Ewing ' 

Ittner, 

Kelley, 

Kenna, 

Killinger, 

Kimmel, 

Knapp, 

Knott, 

Landers, 

Li~on, 

Luttrell, 

Rice, Americus V. 

Robbins, 

Roberts, 

Sampson, 

Sapp, 

Sayler, 

Singleton, 

Slemons, 

Mr. MANNING. I am paired with Mr. CALKINs, of Indiana. If he· 

were present, I presume he would vote "ay ;" I would vote " .no." I 

desire further to state that my colleague, Mr. MONEY, is absent on 

account of illness, and is paired with Mr. HUBBELL, of Michigan. u· 

present, 1\Ir. MONEY would vote ~'no." 

Boock, Felton; · Southard, 

Springer, 

The result of the vote was then announced as above stated. 

Bragg, Forney, The question was upon ordering the bill to be engrossed and read 3>1 

Brewer, Fort, Steele, ili~ti~. • . Bridges, 

Bright, 

Franklin, 

Garth, 

Lynde, Mailkey, 

Maish, 

Marsh, 

Martin 

McMahon, 

Mills 

Tipton, 

Townshend, R. W. 

Tucker, 

Mr. GARFIELD. Believing that this is a serious attack upon re--

Brogden, sumption, I move to lay the bill on the table. 

Browne, 

Buckner, 

Caldwell, John W. 

Caldwell, W. P. 

Candler, 

Gibson, 

Goode, 

Gunter, 

Hamilton, 

Hanna, 

Turner, 

Turney, 

Vance, 

Mr. SPRINGER and 1\Ir. SAYLER called for the yeas and nays. 

The yeas and nays were ordered. 

The question was taken; and there were-yeas 41, nays 155, not 

voting 9"2 ; as follows : 

Cannon, ' 

Clymer, 

Cobb, · Collins, 

Cook, 

Cravens, 

Culberson, 

•ummings, 

Cutler, 

Danford, 

Davis, Joseph J. 

Dean, 

Harris, Henry R. 

Harris, John T. 

Harrison, 

Hartzell, 

Haskell, 

Hatcher, 

Hayes, 

Henderson, 

Henkle, 

Henry, 

Herbert, 

Hewitt, G. W. 

House, 

Morg~. 

Morrison, 

Muldrow, 

Neal, 

Patterson, G. W. 

Patterson, T. M. 

l'hilli s, Poun~ Price, 

Pridemore, 

Rainey, 

Randolph, 

Rea, 

Reagan, 

:NOT VOTING-90. 

Warner, 

~te Harry Whitthorne, 

Wig(Pnton, 

Williams, Jere N. 

Willis, Albert S. 

Willits 

Wilson: 

Wood, 

Wright, 

Yeates, 

Young, JohnS. 

Bacon, 

Ballou, 

Benedict, 

Blair, 

Briggs, 

Camp, 

Chittenden, 

Claflin, 

Cole, 

Covert, 

Cox, JaoobD~ 

YEAS-41. 

Dean. Joyce, Denison, · Lathrop, Eames, Lindsey, Foster, McCook, Garfield, Monroe, Hardenbergh, Morse, Hart, Norcross, 

Hewitt, AbramS. O'Neill, Hungerford, :Reed, Jones, Frank • Robinson, G. D. 

Jones, JohnS.. Shallenberger, 

• NAYS-155. 

Bailey, Dw!&ht, Lockwood, Smith, William E. Acklen, Cummings, Ittner, Baker, John H. EicKDofl:, · Loring, Sparks, Aiken, Cutler, James, 

Baker, William H. Elam, Majors, Stenger, . ftdrikins'ch, ~anford, Keightley, Beebe, Ellsworth, Manning, "Stephens, , avis, Horace Kelley, Bell, Evans, I. Newton May ham, Stone, John W. Bagley, Davis, Joseph J. Kenna, 

Bisbee, Finley, McKenzie, Stone, Joseph C. BaD.kS, Deering, Killinger, Bland, Freeman, McKinley, Swann, Banning, Dibrell Kimmel, Boyd, Frye, Money, Thompson, Bayne, Dunnell, Knapp, Brenta.no, Fuller, Muller, Thornburgh, Bicknell, Durham, Knott, 

Butler, Gardner, Oliver, Throckmorton, Blackburn, EdEllis~n, Landers, Cabell, Gause, Phelps, Townsend, M. L Bliss, , Lapham, Calkins, Giddings, Pollard, Van Vorhes, Blgunt, Evins, John H. Ligon, Carlisle. Glover, Potter, Veeder, Boone, Ewing, Luttrell, Caswell, Harmer, Pgwers, W~dell, Bouck, Felton, Lynde, Chalmers, Harris, BeDj. W. Pu~ Wait, Bragg, Forney, Mackey, Clark, Alva.hA. Hendee, Reilly, Walker, Brewer, Fort, Maish 

Clark of Missouri. Hiscock, Rice, William W. Walsh, Bridges, Franklin, Mars~ Clarke of Kentucky, Hooker, Riddle, Watson, Bright, Garth, Martin, Cox, Samuel S. Hubbell, Robertson, Williams, Richard Brogden, Gibson, McGowan, Crapo, Hunton, Robinson, M. S. Wren, Browne, Goode, McMahon, Crittenden, Jones, JamesT. Ryan, Young, Casey. Buckner, Gunter, Metcaaf.e, Davidson, Jorgensen, SCales, Bundy, • Hamilton, Mills, Dickey, Ketcham, Shelley, Burchard, Hanna, Mitchell, Burdick, Harris, Henry R. Morgan, So the amendment was not agreed to. Butler, Harris, John T. Morrison, 

:Quring the roll-call the following announcements were made: 8:fd~eH, John W. Harrison, Muldrow, 

Mr. STEELE. My colleague, Mr. SCALES, is absent on account of Caldwell, w. P. ~ ~~~ sickness. If present, he would vote "no." Campbell, Hatcher, Pa...,a-e, 

Mr. HATCHER. My coHeague, .Mr. CRITTE..."'WEN, is paired with Candler, Hayes, Patterson, G. W. 

Mr. RYAN. If Mr. CRITTEND&"'l" were here, he would vote "no." My Cannon, ~lton, Pa ..tterson, T. M. 

M G · · d · h h 1 N y Clark, Rush Henderson, Peddie, colleagu~, r. LOVER, 18 prure Wit t egent eman from ew ork, Clymer, Henkle, Phillips, 

Mr. BEEBE. If he were here, he would vote "no." Cobb, Henry, Pound, 

Mr. HANNING. My colleague, Mr; FINLEY, is at home on aecount Collins, Hewitt, G. W. Price, . of sickness. Con{er, Herbert, Pridemore, 

Mr. HEWITT, of New York. I desire to announce that Mr. CHAL- 8:vens, ~ou~ ~h, .MERS is absent on account of sickness. Culberson, H~phrey, Rand~1ph, 

Sinnickson, 

Smith, A. Herr 

Starin, 

Stewart, 

Townsend, Amos" 

Ward, 

Williams, AndrewWilliams, James. 

Rea, 

Reagan, 

Rice, Americua V ~ 

Robbins, 

Roberts, 

Ross, 

Sampson, 

Sapp, 

Sayler, 

Sexton, 

Singleton, 

Slemons, 

Southard, 

Springer, 

Steele, 

Stone, John W. 

Strait, 

Tipton, 

Townshend, R. W. 

Tucker. 

1;'i:lrner, 

Turney, 

Vance, 

Warner 

White, Harry White, Michael D! 

Whitthorne, 

Wig~ ton. Williams, C. G. 

William.s1 Jere N~ 

Willis, Albert S. 

Willis, Benj. A. 

Willits, 

wtlson, 

Wood, 

Wright, 

Ye..'Ltes, 

Young, JohnSMr. DURHAM. 1\Iy colleague, Mr. CARLISLE, is unable to be here NOT VOTING-92. 

to-night. If here, he would vote'' no." Bailey, Eickhofl:, Jorgensen. Scales, 

Mr. MULDROW. My colleague, Mr. CHALMERS, is paired with Mr. Baker, John H. Elam, Keifer, , Shelley, 

CASWELL, of Wisconsin. · Baker, William H. Ellsworth, Ketcham, ~~~'wfilinm E.. 

Mr:. CULBERSON. My colleague, 1\Ir. THROCKMORTON, is detained r~be, ~:~I. Newton ~c~wood,- Sparks, 

from the House by sickness. Bfsbee, Evans, James L. M;:J::.fs•, Stenger, 

Mr. GUNTER. My colleague, Mr. GAUSE, is absent on account of Bland, Finley, Manning, Stephens, 

sickness. If present, he would vote "no."· Boyd, Freem:m, :Makham, Stone, Joseph C. 

Mr. ACKLEN. My colleague, Mr. EL.ur, is absent by reason of ~~b~tf ' ~e~r, ~~Kf~~;: ~=son, sickness. If here, he would vote "no." • Calkins, Gardner, Money, Thornburgh, 

Mr. COBB. My colleague, Mr. FuLLER, is detained from the House Carlisle, Gause, Muller, Throckmorton, on account of sickness in his family. Caswell, Giddings, Oliver, Townsend, M. L 

Mr. PUGH. I am paired with Mr. CABELL. If he were here, he 8fa~'1i;,ah A. ~!~r, ~~~~l ~~!~rhes, would vote "no" and I should vote "ay." Clark of Missouri. Harmer, Potter, Waddell, 

Mr. TOWNSEND, of New York. Upon this question I am paired OlarkeofKentucky,Harris,Benj. W. Powers, Wait, 

with Mr. HOOKER, of Mississippi. If he were present, I should vote Cox, SamuelS. Hendee, Reilly, Walker, 

"no." g~~i:tden, F!~~:.· . it~l~illiam W. ;=h. 

Mr. HARRIS, of Virginia. I desire to announce that IDY. colleague, DaVidson, Hubbell, Robertson, Williams, Richard 

Mr. WALKER, is paired with Mr. W AIT7 of Connecticut. ·. • Dickey, Hunton, Robinson, M. S. . Wren, 

Mr. DEERING. I desire to annowJ.Ce that Mr. RicE, of Massachu- Dwight,· Jones, James T. Ryan, Young, Casey. 

setts, is paired with Mr. FINLEY, of €>hio. During the roll-call the following announcements were made: 

Mr. STONE, of Michigan. I am paired with J.\.lr. SHELLEY, of AJa- Mr. HATCHER. I ·desire to state that my colleague, Mr. GLOVER~ 

bama, who is absent by leave of ilie Honse. is paired with Mr. VKEDER, of New York. If present, Mr. GLOVER: 

Mr. CUMMINGS. I ha,ve been requested to state that Mr. WILL- would vote "no." My colleague, Mr. CRITTENDEN, is paired with 

I.AMS, of Oregon, and Mr. SPARKS, of Illinois, are paired. 1\Ir. RYAN, of Kansas. If present, Mr. CRITIENDE..~ would vote "no.''" 

Mr. HUMPHREY. I desire· to state that my colleague, Mr. CAS- Mr. DAVIS, of North Carolina. My' colleaguer Mr. ScALES, is abWELL, is paired with Mr. CHALMERS, of Mississippi. sent on account of sickness. If here, he would vote "no." 

Mr. PRICE. I desire to stat-e that Mr. RYAN, of Kansas, is pail'ed Mr. MANNING. I am paired with Mr. CALKINs, of Indiana. H 

with Mr. CRITTENDEN, of Missouri. . present, I presume he would vote "ay;" I would vote ''no." My 

Mr. PATTERSON, of New York. I have been requested to state colleague, Mr. Mo~Y, is absent on account of illness, a.nd is paired: 

that Mr. HENDEE, of Vermont, is paired with Mr1 ELAM, of Louisi- with 1\Ir. HUBBELL, of Michigan. If present, Mr. MoNEY wonld vote_, ana. . "no." I do not know how Mr. HUBBELL w~uld vote~ 

; t 
48() CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. JANUARY 15, 

Mr. MULDROW. My collea~e1 Mr. C~mR , is absent and 

;paired with Mr. CASWELL, of W~consin. If present, Mr. CHALMERS 

would vote "no." 

Mr. CULBERSON. My colleague, Mr. THROCKMORTOX, is detained 

from the House by sickness. If present, he would vote "no." 

Mr. ACKLEN: My colleague, Mr. ELAM, is absent on account of 

illness. If present, he would vote " no." 

Mr. KNOTT. My colleague, Mr. McKENZIE, is absent by order of 

the House. If present, he would vote "no." 

Mr. COBB. My colleague, Mr. FULLER, is detaihed from the House 

by reason of sickness in his family. If present, he would vote "no." 

Mr. TUCKER. My colleagues, Mr. CABELL and Mr. HUNTOX, are .absent. If here, they would both vote ''no." 

Mr. TOWNSEND, of New York. On this question I am paired 

with Mr. HooKER1 of Mississippi. If he were present, I would vote 

"' 'Bo." 

Mr. PUGH. I am-paired with 1\fr. CABELL, of Virginia. As I am informed that he would vote "no" if present, I will also vote" no." 

Mr. 'LANDERS. My colleague, Mr. WAIT, is paired with Mr. W ALKER, of Virginia. If Mr. WAIT were present, he would vote '' ay." 

Mr. TOWNSEND, of Ohio. My colleague, Mr. McKThLEY, is ab-

.sent from his seat in consequence of sickness in his family. 

Mr. HUMPHREY. My colleague, Mr. CASWELL, is paired with Mr. 

CHALMERS, of Mississippi. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. I desire to state that Mr. WILLIAl\IS, of Oregon, 

is paired with Mr. SPARKS, of Illinois. , t ' 

Mr. ROBBINS. My colleague, Mr. WADDELL, is absent on account 

of indisposition. If here, he would vote against the motion to lay on the table, and in favor of the passage of this bill. 

The result of the vote was then announced as above stated. 

The bill was then ordered to be engrossed and read a third time. 

Being engrossed, it was accordingly read the third time. 

Mr. WOOD called for the previous question. The previous question was seconded and the main question ordered, 

whlch was upon the passage of the bill. 

Mr. GARFIELD. I call for the yeas and n~s. 

The yeas and nays were ordered. 

The question was taken; and there were-yeas 153, nays 43, not 

-voting 92 ; as follows : . YEAS-153. 

.A elden, Davis, Horace K elley, Ross, Aiken, Davis, Joseph J . K enna, Sampson, Aldrich, Deering, Killinger, Sapt, A tkins, Dibrell: Kimmel, Sayer, · Bagley, Dunnell, Knapp, Sexton, Banning, Durham, Knott, Shall en berger, Bayne, Eden, Landers, Singleton, Bicknell, Ellis Lapham, Sinnick son, .Blackburn, EvliDs, James L . Ligon, Slemons, :Blount, Evins, John H. :Luttrell, Smalls, Boone, Ewing, ~de, Southard, Bouck, Felton, ackey, Springer, Bragg, Forney, Maish, Steele, Brewer, Fort, Marsh, Stone, John W. Brid~s, Franklin, Martin, Strait, :Bright, Garth, McMahon, Tipton, Brogden, Gibson, ~ij1J:lfe, ToWilBend, Amos 

Browne, Goode, Townshend, R. W. Buckner, Gunter, Mitchell, Tucker, Burchard, Hamilton, Morrison, Turner, Burdick, Hanna, Muldrow, Turney, 

Butler, Harris, Henry R. Neal, Vance, 

Cain, . Harris, John T. Overton, Warner, 

Caldwell, John W. Harrison, Page, White, Harry 

Caldwell, W. P. Hartzell, Patterson, G. W. White, Michael D. 

CamJlbell, Haskell, Patterson, T. M. Whitthorne, 

(Jan er, .. Hatcher, Peddie. Wi~rginton, 

-cannon, Hayes, PhilliKs, Wifi'lams, C. G. •Clark, Rush Hazelton, Poun , Williams Jere N. 

Clymer, Henderson, Price, Willis, Aibert S. 

Cobb, Hewitt, G. W. Pridemore, Willits 

Collins, Herbert, Pugh, Wilson: Conger, House, Rainev, Wood, 

Cook, Hunter, Rando'ipb, Wright, 

<Cravens, Humphrey, Rea, Yeates, Culberson, Ittner, Reagan, · Youn:;{, JohnS. 

Cummings, James, Rice, Americus V. 

.Cutler, Keifer, Robbins, Danford, Keightley, Roberts, 

NAYS-43. 

Bacon, Covert, Hewitt, Abram S. O'Neill, .Ballou, C~x, Jacob D. 1fungerford, Reed, 

.Banks, Dean. Jones, Frank Robinson, G. D. 

Benedict, Denison, Jones, John S. • Smith, A. Herr 

Blair, Dwight, Joyce, Starin, Bliss, Eames, Ketcham, Stewart, 

Briggs, Foster, Lathro~, Ward, 

Camp, Garfield, McCoo , Williams, Andrew •Chittenden, Hardenbergb, Monroe, Williams, James 

<Claflin Hart, Morse, Willis, Benj. A. · 

<Cole, ' Henry, Norcross, 

NOT VOTING-9~. 

!Bailey, Bundv, Cox, Sa~uel S. Evans, I. Newton 

Baker, Jo~ H. Cabell. C~po, - Finley, Baker, William H. Calkins, Crittenden, Freeman, Beebe, Carlisle, Davidson, ~e, Bell, Caswell, Dickey, er, .Bisbee, O'h:llmers, Eickho~ Gardner, llland, Clark, Alvah A . Elam, Gause, Boyd, Clarke of Kentucky, Ellawortb, Giddings, .Brentano, Clark of Missouri, Errett, Glover, 

Hale, Majors, Reilly, Thompson, 

Harmer, Manning, Rice, William W. Thornburgh, Harris, Benj. W. Mayham, Riddle, Throckmorton, 

Hendee, McGi>wan, Robertson, ToWilBend, M . I. HenkJe, McKenzie, Robinson, M.S. Van Vorhes, Hiscock, McKinley, Ryan, Veeder, Hooker, Money, Scales, Waddell, 

Hubbell, Morgan, Shelley, Wait, Hunton. Muller, Smith, William E. Walker, Jones, James T. Oliver, Sparks, Walsh, Jorgensen, Phelps, Stenger, Watson, 

Lindsey, Pollard, Stephens, Williams, Richard Loc~wood, Potter, Stone, Joseph C. Wren, ' 

Lonng, Powers, Swann Young, Casey. 

So the bill was passed . During the roll-call the following announcements were made : 1\Ir. DAVIS, of North Ca rolina. My colleague, Mr. SCALES is de- tained from the House by sickness. If present, lie would vot~ "ay." 

Mr. HATCHER. My colleague, Mr. GLOVER, is paired with the 

gentleman from New York, Mr. VEEDER. Mr. GLOVER, if present 

would vote "ay." 1\fy colleague, Mr. CRITTENDEN, is paired with th~ gentleman from Kansa.s, Mr. RYAN. Mr. CRITTENDEN, if prese•t, would vote "ay." 

Mr. HARRIS, of Georgia. My colleague, Mr. BELL1 who is detained 

from the Honse by illness, would, if present, vote" ay." 

Mr. MANNING. My colleague, Mr. Mo~"EY, who is absent on account of illness and is paired w;ith the gentleman from Michi- gan, Mr. HUBBELL, would, if present, vote " ay." I am paired with 

the gentleman from Indiana, Mr. CALKINS, who is detained from the Honse by sickness. If he were present, I should vote in the affirmative. 

Mr. MULDROW. My colleague, Mr. CHALMERS, who is paired with 

the gentleman froin Wisconsin, Mr. CASWELL, would, if present, vote 

"ay." 

Mr. TUCKER. My colleagues, Mr. HUNii'ON and Mr. CABELL who are absent, would, if present, vote" ay." ' 

Mr. LANDERS. My colleague, Mr. WAIT, is paired with the gentleman from Virginia, Mr. WALKER. · Mr. TOWNSE1:1i'D, of New York. On this question I am paired with 

the gentleman from Mississippi, Mr. HooKER. If he were present I 

should vote in the affirmative. ' 

Mr. DWIGHT. My colleague, Mr. BUNDY, is absent on account of 

illness . Mr. SAMPSON. The gentleman from Oregon, Mr. WILLIAMS, is paired with the gentleman from Illinois, 1\fr. SPARKS. 

Mr. BAYNE. 1\Iy colleaguet :Mr. ERRETI, is detained at home by 

sickness. If present, he woula vote" ay.'' 

Mr. HUMPHREY. My colleague, Mr. CASWELL, is paired with the gentleman from :Mississippi, Mr. CHAXMERS. The gentleman from 

Ohio, Mr. VA...~ VoRHEs, is detained at home by sickness. 

Mr. J:?URHAM.. My colleague, Mr. CARLISLE, who is detained from 

the House by indisposition, would, if present, vote '' ay." Mr. McKENZIE aQd Mr. PoWERs are paired. Mr. McKENZIE would vote ~·" 

I do not know how Mr. PoWERs would vote. , Mr. KILLINGER. My colleague, Mr. W ATSO~, is detained from the House by sickness. 

The result of the vote wa-s announced as above stated. 

Mr. WOOD moved to reconsider the vote just taken; and also moved 

that the motion to reconsider be laid on the table. 

The latt.er motion was agreed to. 

ORDER OF BUSINESS. 

Mr. BRAGG. I move that the House do now adjourn. 

Mr. WOOD. If the gentleman will withdraw that motion for a few moments, I desire to report to-night one more bill from the Committee of Ways and Means and hav~ the previous question ordered 

upon it so that it may come up in the morning. I will then consent 

to a'!?- adjournment. I.t ~ a bill to facilitate the refunding of the 

pnbhc debt; and I believe that when understood it must command 

the approval of the House. 

The SPEAKER. The question is on the motion to adjourn. 

Mr. WOOD. I desire to put an inquiry to the Chair. If the House 

should adjourn now1 will not this bill be the first business in order in 

the morning T 

The SPEAKER. It will not. 

Mr. WOOD. Then I hope the House will not adjourn. 

The question being taken on the motion to adjourn, there were- ayes 88, noes 63. 

Mr. WOOD called for tellers. 

Tellers were ordered; and Mr. WooD and Mr.BRAGGwere appointed. 

The House divided; and the tellers reported-ayes 88, noes 63. 

Mr. WHITE, of Pennsylvania. I call for the yeas and nays. 

Mr. WOOD. I hope the yeas and nays will be ordered, unless the 

House will permit the bill to be read and placed in such a position 

that it can be acted on to-morrow morning. . Mr. BURCHARD. I hope the bill w:ill be reported and allowed to 

be pending. 

The yeas and nays were ordered; there being-ayes 42, noes 9 . 

The question was taken ; and it was decided in the negative--yeas 

69, ?ays 102, not voting 117; as follows: · 

Acklen, 

Banning, Blackburn, Boone, 

YEAS-69. 

Bouok, Bragg, Brig:ltt, Browne, 

-. 
1879. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 481 

Butler, 

.Cain, 

Caldwell, John W. Clafiin, 

Culberson, 

Danford, 

Davis, Horace Dibrell, 

Durham, Eames, 

Eden, 

Ellis, 

Ewing. 

Felton, Forney, Gibson, 

Hardenbergb, 

Harris~.Henry R. Hartzeu, 

Hayes, 

Herbert, 

House, 

Hungerfortl, Jeyce, 

Kenna, 

Killinger, Kimmel, 

Knott, 

Lapham, Ligon, 

Luttrell, Lynde, 

Maish, 

Manning, Martin, Milli!, , . Morrison, Morse, 

Muldrow, 

Norcross, 

Patterson, T. M. 

Price, Reagan, 

J?ce, Americus V. ' Roberts, Sampson 

Smalls, 

Springet·, 

NAYS-102. 

Aiken, Aldrich, 

At.kiru!, Bagley, Banks, 

Bayne, Blair, 

Cravens, Hunter, Clliillilings, Ittner, 

Cutler, Jones, Frank 

Davis, Joseph J. Jones, JohnS. Dean, Keifer, 

Deering, Ke!ghtley, Denison, Keuey, 

Bliss, 

Blount, 

Brewer, 

Bridges, Brigp;s, Burcharu, Burdick, ClliDp 

Camp hell, Candler, 

Cannen, Clark, Rush 

Donnell, Ketcham, 

Dwight, Lathrop, 

Evans, James L. Lindsey, 

Evins, John H. Mackey, Fort, Marsh, Fos~r . McCook, FranKlin, McKinley, {rt>ode, McMahon, Gunt~r. Monroe, 

Hamilton, Overton, 

Harris, John T. Page, 

Harrison, Patterson, G. W. 

&bber, 

Cole,' 

Haskell, Peddie, Hat~her, Phillips, 

Hazelton, Pound, 

Coll.ins, Henry, Pu~h, 

Conger, Covert, 

Ci>x, ·Jacob D. 

Hewitt, Abram S. Rainey, Hewitt, G. W. Randolph, Humphrey, Rea, 

NeT VOTING-117. 

Bacon , ·Davidson, 

Bailey, Dickey, 

Baker, John H. Eickhoff, Baker, William H. Elam, 

Ballou, Ellsworth, Beebe, Errett, 

Bell, Evans,U. Newton Benedict, Finley, 

Bicknell, Freeman, 

Bisbee, Frye, 

Bland, Ftiller, :Boyd, Gardner, Breutano, Garfield, 

Brogden, Garth, 

Buckner, Gause, 

Bundy, Giddings, Cabell, Glover, 

Caldwell, W. P. Hale, 

Calkins, Hanna, Carlisle. Harmer, 

Caswell, Harria, Benj. W. Chalmers, Hart Chittenden, Hendee, 

Clark, Alvah A... Henderson, Clark of Missouri, Henkle, 

Clarke of K entucky, Hiscock, Cook, Hooker, 

Cox:, SamuelS. Hubbell, Crapo, Hunton, 

Crittenden, James,· 

Jones, James T. Jorgensen, Knapp, 

Landers, Look wood, Loring, Majors, May ham, McQQwan, McKenzie, .Metcalfe, Mitchell, 

Money, 

.Morgan, 

Muller, Neal, Oliver, O'Ne.ill, 

Ph~lps-l 

Pouara, Potter, 

Powers, 

Pridem:>re, 

~illy .. R1ce, William W . Riddle, 

Robertson, Robinson, M. S. Ross, Ryan, 

Starin, Steele, Stone, John W. Strait, ToWllBhen<l, R. W. Turner, Vance, 

;ct:,njere N. 

Willis, AlbertS. 

Wili!on, Yeates, Young, JohnS. 

Reed, 

Robbins, 

Robinson, G. D. Sayler, 

Sexton, 

Shallenberger, Singleton, Sinnickson, Southard, Stewart, Tipton, 

Townsend, Amos 

Tucker, 

Turney, Ward, White, Harry 

White, Michael D. Whitthorne, 

Williams, Andrew 

Williams, C. G. 

Williams, James Willi8,~enj . .A. WillitS, Wood. 

Sapp, 

Scales, Shelley, Slemons, Smith, A. H err Smith, William E. 

Sparks, Stenger, Stephens, Stone, Joseph C. 

Swa.nn, 

Thompson, 

Thornburgh, 

Throckmorton, Townsend, M. I. Vun Vorbes, 

Veeder, Waddell, Wait, Walker, Walsh, Wo.rner, Watson, 

Williams, Richard 

Wren, 

Wright, 

Young, Casey. 

So the House refused to adjourn. 

During the vote, 

Mr. BLACKBURN said: I desire to announce that Mr. CHALMERS 

is paired with Mr. CASWELL. . Mr. PATTERSON, of New York, by unanimous consent, moved that 

the readin~ of the names be dispensed with. 

The motion was agreed to. 

The vote was then announced as above recorded. 

REFU1-I'DING NATIONAL DEBT. 

Mr. WOOD, from the Committee of Ways and Means, reported a bill (H. R. No. 5808) to facilitate the refunding the national debt; 

which was read a first and second time. 

The bill, which was read, provides that the Secretary of the Trea.sury iB hereby authoriz~d, in the process of refunding the national 

debt under existing laws, to exchange directly at par the bonds of 

the United States bearing interest at 4/er cent. per annum, authorized by law, for the bonds of the Unite States commonly known as :five-twenties outstandin(J' and uncalled. And whenever all such 5-20 

bonds shall have been redeemed the provisions of this section and all 

eXisting provisions of law authorizing the refunding of the nationa~ 

debt shall apply to any bonds of the United States bearing interest 

at 5 per cent. per annum, or a higher rate, which may be redeemable. 

In any exchange made under the provisioDB of this section interest 

may be allowed on the bonds redeemed for a period of three months. 

Mr. WOOD. I wish to know, Mr. S~ker_.whether the demand 

for the previous question will carry this bill over to be acted on in 

the morning f · The SPEAKER. The demand will not. 

VIIT-31 

Mr. 'VOOD. ·Then let the demand for the previous question be 

seconded. . Mr. EWING. I wish to mtlke a motion to recommit. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from New York demands the p~~evious question. 

Mr. SPRINGER. Would not this come up to-morrow as unfinished 

business t . The SPEAKER. Not unless the previous question iB seconded, as to-morrow is specially a.ssi!med for the levee bill. 

1\lr. SPRINGER . . Then this would not be the un:finiB.bed business! 

The SPEAKER. Not unless the main question is ordered. The 

question is now on seconding the demand. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I call for a division on seconding the demand for 

tile previous question. 

The House divided ; and there were-ayes 135, noes 13. 

So the previous question was seconded. 

The question recurred on ordering the main question to be now put. 

Mr. SPRINGER called for a. division. 

The House divided; and there were-ayes 116, noes 33. 

Mr. SPRINGER demanded tellers. 

Tellers were not ordered. 

So the main question was ordered. 

And then, on motion of Mr. WOOD, (at ten o'clock and fifty-five 

minutes p.m.,) the ~ouse adjourned. 

PETITIO:NS, ETC. 

The following petitions, &c., were presented at the Clerk's. desk, under the rule, and referred as stated·: By Mr. ALDRICH: The petition of D. D. Palmer and 68 others, citizeDB of Marion County, Ulinois, for legislation to prevent the adulteration of sweets-to the Committee of Ways and Means. 

Also, the petition of Noah Cameron and Z1 others, citizens of Lawrence, Kansas, of similar import-to the same committee. 

Also, the petition of members of the bee-keepers' convention, o£ 

Albany, New York, of similar import-to the same committee. 

By Mr. BAKER, of Indiana: Tlie petition of Julius A. Weicht and 

112 others, citizens of Steuben and De Kalb Counties, Indiana, for the 

establishment of a post-route from Kendallville, via Fairfield Centre, 

Turkey Creek, Salem Centre, and Flint, to A~gola, Indiana-to the 

Committee on the Post-Office and Post-Roads. 

By 1\lr, BREWER: The petition of Mrs. Nelson Norton and 2-20 

other ladies, of Leslie, Michigan, for legislation to make effective the 

anti-polygamy law of 1862-to the Committee on the Judiciacy. 

Also, the petition of Mrs. G. W. Hasty and 93 other ladies, of Lansing, Michigan, of siinilar iP!port-to the same committee. • By Mr. BURDICK: The petition of N.J . . Quandahl, for ·a postroute from Locust Lane, via Quandahl, to Bergen, Iowa-to the Committee on the Post-Office and Post-Roads. 

By Mr. CLARK, of Iowa: The petition of ladies of Buckingham 

Township, Iow{l, for legislation to make effective the anti-polygamy 

law of 1~62-to the Committee on the Judiciary. 

By Mr. CRAPO: The petition of Mrs. T. H. Boynton and others, of 

Raynham, Massachusetts, of similar import-to the same committee. 

By Mr. CRAVENS: Papers relatin~ to the claim of James Clifford 

for compensation for manufacturing rron doors and windows for the 

United States prison n.t Fort Smith, Arkansas-to the Committ-ee on Appropriations. 

Also, paperR relating to the claim ofT. J. Newber, for compensation 

for the use of rooms occupied by the United States district court for 

the western district of Arkansas, at Fort Smith-to the same com- mitte& · 

By Mr. CUMMINGS: Memorial of the Religious Society of Friends 

in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware, remonstrating against 

the transfer of the management of the Indians from the Interwr to 

the War Department-to the Committee on Military Affairs. 

By Mr. DEERL.~G: The petition of citirens of Howard County, 

Iowa, for the amendment of the patent laws so as to protect innocent 

purchasers of patented articleB"-to the Committee on Patents. 

By Mr. DUl\TNELL: The petition of .Mary A. Sheldon and 110 others, 

of Minnesota, for legislation to make effective the anti-polygamy law 

of 1862-to the Committee on the Judiciary. 

By Mr. ERREIT: Resolutions of the Chamber of dommerce of Pittsburgh, in favor of an appropriation to complete Davis Island damto the Committee on Commerce. . By 1\lr. FORT: The petition of Mrs. C. A. Bennett and 169 other 

women, of Kankakee County, illinois, for the enforcement of the ln. w against polygamy in Utah-to the Committee on the Judiciary. 

Also, the petition of Mrs. J. Bailey and 89 other women, of Gilman, illinois, of similar import-to the same committee. 

By Mr. FOSTER: The petition of Mrs. C. D. Patterson and others, of Green Springs, Ohio, of similar import-to the same c8mmittee. 

By Mr. FRYE: The petition of George S. Hunt and others, against 

the proposed chr'lnge of the tariff on. sugars-to the Committee of Ways 

and Means. • By Mr. GARTH : The petition of Mrs. · Jennie Taylor, Mrs. Ellen 

Thach, Mrs. Jane Harris, and 23 others, of Limestone County, Alabama, for such legislation as will inake effective the anti-polygamy 

law of 1862-to the Committee on the Judiciary. 

By Mr. GOODE: The petition of James E. Harris of Virginia, to 

f 
. 

482 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. JANUARY 16, 

be paid the value of three barrels of brandy improperly taken from 

him by UnitedStatesofficials-r-tothe Committeeof Ways and Means. 

Also, memorial of the American Health Association, a"'king certain le~lation affecting the public health-to the ~loot committee on the 

ongin, introduction, and prevention of epidemic diseases in the United 

States. 

By Mr. H.A.R?tlER: Papers relating to the war claim of Henry Frank, 

of Philadelphia, Peunsylvani~to the Committee on War Claims. 

By Mr. HUNTON: The petition of James Beckham and wife, for 

compensation for property destroyed byUnited.States soldiers during 

the late war-to the same committee. 

By Mr. JACOBS: The petition of J. W. Jewett, W. H. Crockett, 

and 8 others, citizens of Washington Territory, for the r0atoration of 

the branch lands of the Northern Pacific Railroad to the public domain-to the Committee on Public Lands. 

Also, the petition of John A. Shoudy and 39 others, citizens of Washington Territory, of similar import-to the same committee. 

Also, the petition of H. L. Yesler and 1,005 others, voters of Washington Terr1tory, of similar import-to the same committee. 

By :Mr. JONES, of New Hampshire: The petition of Mrs. B. A. Sherwood and 32 other women of Milton Mills, New Hampshire, for such 

legislation as will make effective the anti-polygamy law of 1862-to 

the Committee on the Judiciary. · By Mr. LAP~: Memorial of the representatives of the religious 

society of Friends, in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware, re- monstrating against the transfer of the management of the Indians 

from the Interior to-the War Department-to the Committee on Military' Affairs. 

By Mr. McKINLEY: The petition of L. C. Rice and 70 citizens of 

:Michigan, against the extension of the Birdsell clover-huller patentto the Committee on Patents. · Also, the petition of 58 women of Carrollton, Ohio, for legislation 

to make effective the anti-polygamy law of 1862-to the Committee 

on the Judiciary. By Mr. MONROE: The petition of S. S. Eberhatt and 29 others, citi- zens of Ohio, against the extension of the Birdsell clover-huller patent-to the Committee on Patents. . Also, the petition of A. K. Richard~ and 32 others, citizens of Ohio, 

of similar import-to the same committee. 

Also, the petition of H. M. Culbertson and 10 others, citizens of Ohio, 

of similar import-to the same committee. 

Also, the petition of Rev. Mason Noble, D. D., and the delegates of 

fifty-three religious and secular temperance organizations in the District of Columbia, repre~nting six thousand members, asking Con- <rress to pass more efficient laws to provide against t.he evils resulting 

.from the sale of intoxicating drinks-to the Committee for the District of Colnmbia. ~y Mr. MORRISON: The petition of Carlos J. Stolbrand, for au- thority for the Navy Department to test the usefulness of a" subaqueous vessel and mine "-to the Committee on Naval Affairs. 

By Mr. PRICE : ·The petition of the Women's Christian Temper- ance Union, of Bellevue, Iowa, and others, for a commission of inquiry concerning the alcoholic liquor traffic-to the Committee on 

the Judiciary. 

By Mr. RICE, of Massachusetts: The petition of Mary L. Turner 

and others, for the extension of the sewing-machine patent granted 

Sidney S. Turner,.August 22, 1854-to the Committee on Patents. 

By Mr. ROBINSON, of Massachusetts: The petition of Mrs. Betsey 

DeWitt and others, of Agawam, Massachusetts, for the suppression 

of polygamy-to the Committee on the Judiciary. ' 

By :Mr. SAYLER: The petition of John E. Kelly, for compensation a-s a messenger and doorkeeper for the Committee of Ways and 

Means, House of Representatives-to the Committee of Accounts. 

By Mr. SINNICKSON: The petition of Mrs. Edna Taylor, guardian of two orphan children of the late General John Williams, that 

they be gfanted a pension-to the Committee on Invalid Pensions. 

By Mr. 'STARIN: The petition of manufacturers of Buffalo, New 

York, against the extension of the shoe-last patent of Nathaniel 

Jones-to the Committee on Patents. 

Also, the petition of G. Westinghouse & Co., of Schenectady, New 

York, and others, against the extension of the Birdsell clover-huller 

patent-to the same committee. 

Also, the petition of churchmen o.f Johnstown, New York, for legislation prohibiting lif.!uor traffic in the several States and 'l'erritories 

and the District of Colnmbi~to the Committee on the Judiciary. 

Also, the petition of the women of Charleston, New York, for legislation that will render effective the anti-polygamy law of 1862-to 

the same committee. 

Also, the petition of women of Coglingsville, SaraV..ga County, New 

York, of similar import-to the same committee.· By Mr. STENGER: The petition of 13 women of Mount Union, Pennsylvania, for such legislation as will make effective the anti-polygamy 

law of 1862-to the same committee. 

By Mr. STEPHENS, of Georgia: Resolutions of the city council of 

Augusta, Geor~ in favor pf th~ establishment_ of a United Sta~s 

ilistrict court m that city with circuit court powers-to the same committee. 

By MF. STONE, of Iowa: The petition of Sarah F. Moore and 150 

other ladies, of Birmingham, Iowa, for such legislation as will make 

effective the anti-polygamy law of 1862-to the same committee. 

j 

By :Mr. TURNEY: The petition of citizens of Pennsylvania who 

served in the Union Army in the late war, and who were honorably 

discharged, for the passage of a law granting them aid in making settlements on the public lands-to the Committee on Public Lands. 

By Mr. VANCE : A paper relating to the establishment of postroutes from North Cove to Marion, and from Old Fort to Grassy Knob, 

via Stone Mountain, Bu:ffalo, and Cedar Creek, North Carolin~to theCommittee on the Post-Office and Post-Roads. 

By Mr. WALSH : .The petition of Frederick Schaum, for a pensionto the Committee on Invalid Pensions. 

By Mr. WILLIAMS, of Wisconsin: The petition of Mrs. H. K •. Moore and 50 others, for legislation that will make effective the antipolygamy law of 1862-to the Committee on the Judiciary. 

By Mr. WILLIAMS, of Delaware·: The petition of 206 citizens of 

Delaware and Maryland, for a survey of the Nanticoke River-to the 

Committee on Commerce. 

By Mr. WILLIS, of New York : The petition of WilliamS. Can-, for an extension of a patent for an improvement in water-closets-to the . 

Committee on Patents. 

IN SENATE. 

THURSDAY, Jamtary 16, 1879. 

Prayer by the Chaplain, Rev. BYRON SUNDERLAND, D. D. 

The Journal of yesterday's proceedings was read and approved. 

EXECUTIVE COMMUNICATIONS. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT laid before the Senate a communisation 

from the Secretary of War, transmitting a -letter fro:n the Chief of 

Engineers inclosing reports from Lieutenant-Colonel George Thoro, 

Corps of Engineers, upon the results of examinations made in compli- ance with the river and harbor act of June 18, 1878, at Lincolnville 

Harbor, Lubec Channel, Maine, Scituate Harbor, Massachusetts, and 

Charles River, Massachusetts; which was referred to the Committee· on Commerce, and ordered to be printed. · He also laid before the Senate a communication from the Secretary 

of War, forw.arding a letter from ·the Third Auditor of the Treasury,. 

calling attention to the subject of the unpaid claims of citizens of 

Montana and Dakota Territories under the actR of March 3, 1873, and 

March 3, 1875, and recommending an appropriation of $15,000 for that 

purpose; which was refen-ed to the Committee on Appropriations. 

He also laid before the Senate a communication from the Secretary 

of War, transmitting a report of the Quartermaster-General, recom- mending the passage of Senate bill No. 485 repealing the laws prohibiting payments to land-grant railroads for the transportation of 

property or troops of the United States, with certain amendments;. which wa-s ord-ered to lie on the table and be printed. 

PETITIO~S AND :MEMORIALS. 

Mr. WALLACE presented a memorial of the representatives ot thoReligious Society of Friends, of Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware, remonstrating against the change of the Indian Bureau from 

the Interior Department to the War Department, and giving reasons therefor; which was referred to the select joint committee to consider 

the subject of the transfer of the Indian Bureau from the Interior tothe War Department. 

He also presented the petition of Mary G. Kelly and other women, 

of Huntingdon C(')unty, Pennsylvania, and the petition of Mrs. Kate· M. Shafer and other women, of Clearfield County, Pennsylvania, praying for the passage of an act making effective the anti-polygamy law 

of 1862; which were referre~. to the Committee on the Judiciary. 

Mr. }.,ERRY presented the petition of E. V. Smith and 35 others, 

citizens of Michigan, and the pet.ition of Richard 'Vhiteside and 563. 

others, citizens of Michigan, praying for the pa,ssage of the bill (H. 

R. No. 4234) granting arrears of pensions; which were ordered to lie on the table. 

He :tlso presented the petition of Mrs. L. J. Anderson and 29 other· women, of Van Buren, Wayne County, Michigan, praying for the passage of an act making effective the anti-polygamy law of 1862; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. 

J\Ir. MATTHEWS presented the petition of Henry Rigler and a.. large number of others, soldiers at the National Soldiers' Home, Dayton, Ohio, praying for the prompt passage of the bill (H. R. No. 4234) 

granting arrears of pensions; which was ordered to lie on the table. 

Mr. HOAR presented the petition of James King, late private Company B, Second Regiment Massa~husett. Volunteers, praying to be--

allowed a pension; which was referred to the Committee on Pensions. 

Mr. DAVIS, of Illinois, presented the petition of John Bauman and 

others, citizens of lilinois, praying for the passage of the bill (H. R. 

No. 4234) granting arrears of pensions; which was ordered to lie on the table. REPORTS OF COMMITTEES. 

Mr. MAXEY, from the Committee on Military Affairs, to whom was referred the bill (S. No. 1627) making appropriation for the purchase 

of Fort Clark, Texa-tf, reported it without amendment, and submitted. a report thereon, which was ordered to be printed. 

Mr. THURMAN, from the Committee on the J _udiciary, to whom.