310 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. D EOEl\IBER 18, 

On Territories-Messrs. Harrison) chairman), Platt, Conger, Cull ~ 1\Iander- son, B~tler, Jones of Florida, George, and Payne. 

On Transpo1·tation. Rottfes to theSeaboa1·d-Messrs. Aldrich (chairman), Mander- son, Pa.liner, Cullom, Gtbson, Vest, Call, Butler, and :Mitchell of Oregon. 

SELECT COlllMlTTEES. 

To Investigate Condition of Powmac Rive1· Pront of Washington-Messrs. Mc- Pherson (chair~an), Rans?m, Gorman, Conger, Sabin,l\Ianderson, and Spooner. To 11 alee Prov-U~wn for t~ktng the Tenth Cens= and ascertaining the Results thereof- Messrs. Hale (chairman), Morrill, Sawyer, Wilson of Iowa, Coke, Jackson, and 

Berry. 

To Inquire into an Claims of Oili.zens of the United States against the Governnumt of 

Nicm·agua-Messrs. Maxey (chairman), Beck, Hoar, Harrison, and Wilson of 

:Maryland. On Woman S1tffrage-Messrs. Cockrell (chairman), Fair, Brown, Blair, Palmer, 

Chace, and Bowen. On Addilio11al Accommodations fol' the Library of Congress-Messrs. Voorhees 

(chairman), Butler, Gibson, Morrill, and Miller of California. 

To Inquire a.s to the Oapacity of Steelrproducing Works in the United Stales-Messi·s. 

Hawley (chairman), Aldrich, Iorgan,Butler,and Sewell. . 011 Transportation lnJ Railroad between the severaL States-Messrs. Cullom (chair- man), Platt, l\Iiller of New York, Gorman, and Harris. To Consid_er the Su_bject of Reduction of E"!lployes and Committees of Senale1\Ies rs. Allison (chalrman),Platt,Plumb,l\Iiller of New York, Cocki•ell, Harris, 

and Payne. 

ADJOURNMENT TO MO!\""DAY. 

J'.\1r. MORRILL. I move that when the Senate adjourn to-day it 

adjourn to meet on Monday next. 

The motion was agreed to. 

PATENT OFFICE ROO liS. 

Mr. PLATT, i ask that the joint resolution of the House which 

was lnid on the table yesterday be taken up at this time. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Senator from Connecticut 

moves th:l.t the joint resolution received yesterday from the House of 

Representatives· be now taken up for consideration. The motion was agreed to; and the joint resolution (H. Res. 1) 

authorizing the Secretary of the Interior to use a portion of the contingent fund to fit up rooms for the Commissioner of Patents was read 

twice and considered as in Committee of the Whole. 

U.r. PLATT. A single word of explanation, Mr. President. The 

Commissioner of Patents has been assjgned to different rooms in the 

building of the Interior Department, and it becomes necessary to fit them 

up and repair them. The Secretary of the Interi{)r and also the Commissioner of Patents think that the power exists now to take from the 

contingent fund the sum necessary for that purpose, but the Comptroller of the Treasury has.donbts about it, and so they request that 

this resolution ma.y be passed. I think there is no necessity for referl·ing it to a committee. I will ask, however, that a single amendment 

may be made; that is, after :the word "nece...~ary," in line 7, to insert 

the words "fit up.and;" so as to r ead: 

A may be necessary to fit up and-put in proper repair the rooms in the Inte- rior Department. building, &c. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The joint resolution was reported to the Senate as amended, and the 

amendment was concurred in. The amendment was ordered to be engrossed and the joint resolution 

to be 1·ead the third tiri:le. 

The joint resolution was read the third time, and passed. 

JUDICIAL SALARIES. 

'The PRESIDENT pro te1111Jore. The regular order is the bill (S. 6) 

fixing the salaries of the seveml judges of the United States district 

court at :S5,000 per annum, and tor other purposes, the pending question being on the amendment pr'oposed by the Senator from Alabama 

[Mr. MORGAN}. 

J'llr. ALLISON. I move that the Senate do now adjourn. 

· TJ1e motion was agi"eed to; and (at 2 o'clock and 39 minutes p. m.) 

the Senate adjourned. .. 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. 

FRIDA.Y, Decembm· 18, ?-885. 

The House met at 12 o'clock m. Pra.yer by the Chaplain, Rev. W. H . 

MILBURN, D.. D. 

The Journal of yesterday's proceedings was read and appreved. 

REGENTS OF THE Sl!ITHSONIAN INSTITUTION. 

1\fr. WILSON, of West Virginia. I ask unanimous consent to take 

from the Speaker's table for present consideration Senate joint resolution No. 1, filling existing vacancies in the Board of Regents of the 

Smithsoillan Institution. · 

The SPEAKER. The joint resolution will be read, after which the 

the Chair will ask for objection . The joint resolution was read, as follows: 

Resoh·ed, &c. Thattbeexi tingvncancie in the Board of Regents of the Smithsoniau In titution .of the class •· other than members of Congress " shall be filled 

by the reappointment of John 1\Iu.clean of New Jersey, As Gray of l\Iassachu- seLt , llenry Coppee of P e unsylvanja, and the appointment of Montgomery C. 

Meigs, of the city of Washington, vice William T. Sherman whose term has ex- pired and who is no longer a citizen of 'Vashington. 

The SPEAKER. Is there objection to the rese ~ consideration of 

the resolution? 

There was no objection. 

The joint resolution was read three times, and passed. 

Mr. WILSON, of West Virginia, moved to reconsider the vote by 

which the jointresolntion was passed; and also moved that the motion 

to reconsider be laid on the table. 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

GOVERNOR'S ISL.Al.""D, NEW YORK. 

The SPEAKER, by unanimous consent, laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of\Yar, transmitting a report of the damage by 

storm to Governor's Island, New York Harbor, and asking an appropriation for continuing the sea-wall around the island; which was laid 

on the table, and ordered to be printed. 

FORT CANBY W ASHINGTOX TERRITORY. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the House a letter from the Secretary 

of ·war transmitting detailed estimates of the cost of protecting roads 

and public buildings at Fort Canby, Washington Territory, against the 

waters of Baker s Bay; which was laid on the table, and ordered to be 

prin~ed. 

TIIE RCLES. 

Mr. J'!IORRISO~. I call up a~ a privileged question the unfinished 

business. · 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Illinois calls up the report 

of the Committee on Rules. Tbe question is upon an amendment proposed by the gentleman from Dlinois [Mr. SPRINGER] which the Clerk 

will report. · 

The Clerk read as follows: 

Strike out, from line 62 to line 77, the following: " On Expenditure in the State Department, to consist of seven members· 

"On Expenditures in the Trea m-y Department, to consist of seven member 

"On Expenditures in the War Department, to consist of seven members· 

"Os Expenditures in the Navy Deparlment, to consist of seven member' · "On Expenditures in the Post·Office Department, to consist of seven memb~r · "On Expenditures in the Interior Department, to consist of seven members.' 

"On Expenditures in the Department of Justice, to consi t of seven memberS· "~n Expenditures on Public B~dings, to consist of seven members," ' and InSert as follows: 

"On Public Expenditures, to con ist of fifteen members." 

M.r. SPRINGER. I have moved to strike out these various committees and create one committee consisting of fifteen members. My object is not to destroy any imaginary good that these committees might 

produce if allowed to exist, but it is to bring the responsibility of making these investigations within such a number of members as will insure some work being done by the committees. 

I also have in view the saving of the public funds. I have been a. member of Congress for ten years, and my observation with regard to 

these committees is that in nearly all cases, after their appointment, 

organization, and the election of a clerk, the committees practically 

cease to exist, and nothing further is done. We have been paying 

about $25,000 a year for clerks to these committees, which would 

amount to 250,000 in the last ten years for clerkships to committees 

that have done no work, except in a few cases to w;hich I shall refer. 

I old in my hand indices showing the reports of these committees 

during the last two Congresses, which may be taken as a sample of the 

work generally done by these committees on Departmental expenditures. With one or two exceptions these indices show simply the ap· 

pointment of the committee and the authorization of a clerk to it; and 

there the record stop . The exception is in the case Qf the Committee 

on Expendituresin the Department of Justice, ofwhichduringthelast 

Congress I had the honor to be the chairman. That committee made 

several reports, and was engaged very industriously, as all gentlemen 

who were members of the committee will testify, in the work assigned 

to it. But with this exception none of these committees dnrinrr the 

last Congress or the preceding Congress, or for any number of years 

within my recollection except during the Forty-fourth Congress, made 

any reports whatever. 

:Mr. ADAMS, of Illinois. Will my colleague allow me a question? 

• l\1r. SPRINGER. Certainly. 

Mr. ADAl\1S, of illinois. Is it not the purpose in forming these 

committee that they shall stand ready for the occurrence of such a nece ity for investigati{)u as did arise in the last Congress in the case of 

tbe p:trticularcommiltee of which my colleague was chairman? 

lHr. SPRINGER. Tbn.t was the intention, I have no doubt; and I 

propo e that we create one committee which will be a good one and 

will stand ready to do this work, a committee consisting of fifteen members, which can be divided into ubcommittees, and can no doubt perform any work that may be required by any emergency in the future. 

But if there should ari ·e hereafter orne extraordinary occasion for inve tigation: I haYe no doubt the House would promptly respond by cre- ating a special committee for that purpose. 

Mr. PETERS. The gentleman says he would like to have "one good 

committee. ' I hope he does not mean to intimate that the e other 

committees ha\e been bad. 

Mr. SPRINGER. Oh, no; J mean nothing of the kind. The gentleman may, if he choo es, indulge in reflections of that kind, but I 
1885. CONGRESSIONAL REOORD-HOUSE. 311 

do not. I am talking about rueful committees as distinguished from 

committees that have no work to do. 

I believe that this proposition is in the interest of economy. During 

the last t,en years it has cost $258,000 to pay the clerks to these useless 

committees. The President basset us an example of economy; I hope 

this House will respond to it by cutting off some of the . useless expenditures of this body. It is for this purpose and to secure more efficient service that I have moved this amendment. I hope it will be 

adopted. 

Mr. :MORRISON. Mr. Speaker, I trust the motion of my colleague 

[Mr. SPRINGER] will not prevail. It is based, as is every other proposition made here in opposii;t_on to the report of the committee, chiefly 

upon the assumption that it Will result in curtailing, limiting, or cutting down expenditures of public money. My colleague [Mr. SPRINGER] refers to the expense that is to result from the employment of 

clerks to these committees, which he says ought not to ha>e clerks. 

Why, sir, I remember in the last Congress, when my colleague was the 

chairman of one of these committees, one clerk was not enough for 

him; so import,ant was his committee that he had to h:we two. He 

asked for them and they were voted to him. 

1\Ir. SPRINGER. I beg the gentleman's pardon; I had but one. 

Mr. MORRISON. Two. It is so reported in the Directory. 

Mr. BLOUNT. .Allow me to suggest that the Committee on Expenditures in the War Department in a former Congress made the investigation that resulted in articles of impeachment against the then 

Secretary of War, General Belknap. 

Mr. SPRINGER. That was in the Forty-fourth Congress. 

l'tfr. BLOUNT. But it answers the gentleman's statement that these 

committees have nothing to do. 

Mr. MORRISON. I was about to say, Mr. Speaker, that these committees constitute the eyes, the ears, and the hands of the House. In 

fact, I believe it was claimed in some cases, when they were making 

their investigations, that they also constituted the nose or noses of the 

House, for they were called ''smelling committees .• '' [Laughter.] Be 

that as it may, a great deal of good has Tesulted from the work done by 

them, and I am sure they should not and will not be abolished. During the late C3D.V~ especially, and in fact in all our recent Democratic 

canvasses, we have heard it proclaimed everywhere, at least wherever a 

Democratic speech was made, that we wanted to see or "look at the 

books.'' Now we are in possession and have an opportunity to see the 

books; and I hope we shall not begin by closing our eyes and refusing 

to look at them. 

l\Ir. BROWNE, of Indiana. I hope you will not. You will have some 

book of your own in a few years that yon will need to look at, and 

there ought to be committees of this kind for that purpose. 

Mr. BING~!. We had these same committees in the last Congress; there is nothing new in this proposition to continue them. 

Mr. HERBERT. Mr. Speaker, in the last Congress the work of the 

C~mmi ttee on Ex.pendi tures in the Department of Justice was very effective. It made clear.t<>; the whole country that great abuses existed in 

that Department. In the investigation which it made it· had the sympathy and aid of the chief of that Department, Attorney-General Brewster. All these other committees on expenditures in the variolis Departments will no doubt, if continued now, have the sympathy in every 

case of the head of the particular Department. If there is any truth 

whatever in the charges we made during ·the last canvass that abuses 

have crept into all the Departments of this Government, we ought certainly to stand ready to investigate them by every means 41 our power. 

These committees existed heretofore when the Republicans were in 

power, not only in this House, but when they had the Presidency. 

Now, since they have gon~ out of power and we have come in, I can not see that the Republicans can afford to vote against the continuance 

of these committees, which existed when they had control of the House 

as well as the administration. To do so would be to confess that they are afraid of the investigation. 

Mr. BROWNE, of Indiana. One committee can do it alL 

Mr. HERBERT. No, one committee can not do it all. One committee could not have done seven times as much work as the Springer committee did in the last Congress. It is absolutely impossible, and if 

these committees shall have anything at all to do, and I believe they 

all will, they ~ill have their hands full. .Already, under the Interior Department, in the matter of geodetic surveys, abuses most outrageous 

have been exposed by investigations instituted by that Executive Department of tlll.s Government, Let this Honse stand ready to second 

all such efforts. Let us not tie our hands. Let us not take away from 

onrsel ves the means of exposing and correcting these abuses. Those 

were the reasons that actuated the Committee on Rules in perpetuating 

these several committees, and they ought to be sufficient, in my judgment, with this House to induce it to sustain the Committee on Rnles 

in its recommendations. This is not the time to make the reform, if it 

shall be one, which the gentleman from illinois [.1\Ir. SPRIXGER] insists 

upon. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. HOUK. l't1r. Speaker, I simply desire to say, in reply to the 

gentleman from Alabama, that he need not appeal to the Republican 

side of this House to vote to abolish these committees. We do not propose 

any such measure ; but, on the contrary, it comes from the Democratic side of this Honse. It is true that when the Republican party 

were in power there was little necessity for any such committees, but 

the prospect now is that they will be usefnl in the future, and w~ are 

therefore all going to vote to continue them. [Lan.:,o-hter.] 

Mr. REAGAN. If these several committees, Mr. Speaker, are use· 

less, it must be because they have neglected to perform the duties ap· 

pointed to them by the rules. Let us look at the duties assigned to 

them. They are as follows : 

34. The examination of the accounts an d expenditures of the several D p ;utments of the Go>errunent, a nd the manner of keeping the same ; the economy, - justness, and correctness of s uch expenditures ; their conformity with appro- priation law ; the proper application of public moneys; the security of the 

Government against unju t and extra >agant dem11ds; retl:enchment; the en- forcement of the payments of moneys due to the United States; the economy and a ccountability of public officers; the abolishment of useless offices; thereduction or increase ofpayofofficers, shall all besubjects within the jurisdiction 

of the eight st!l.nding committees on the public expenditures in the several De- partments. 

If these committees will perform faithfully what they are authorized 

by the rules to perform I know nothing which will tend more to correct administration, toward economy in expenditures, and to a correction of the abuses which for a long time have crept into the operatioll8 

of the Federal Goverirm.ent. 

If one committee should attempt to do this it would be found to be 

impossible to go through all the Departments. .Any one committee tha.t 

will discharge the duties pointed out by this provision jn any oue of 

the Departments of the Government will find ample labor and ample 

employment and it mayrender to the Government valuable service. 

I am informed these committees have existed since 1816. Th€rehaYe 

been within the last eight or ten years some investigations made by 

these committees. The fact that their duties may have been neglected 

is no argument against the utility of the committees, but it should be 

understood thosewhoare appointed toperform theduties of these committees will be expected to perform their duties with fidelity to the 

House and to the country. 

Besides, there are no clerks allowed to these committees. If an emer. 

gency shall arise requiring a clerk it could be provided. So there is no 

additional expense incurred. 

With three hundred and twenty-fi.>emembers in this House there is 

ample material for all the committees provided by the rule and ample 

work for all of those committees if they shall discl:arge the duties assigned to them. Therefore I trust the amendment of the gentleman 

from illinois will not be adopted, but that these several ommif.tees will 

be continued. 

[Here the hammer fell. J 

Mr. WARNER, of Ohio. The question, Mr. Speaker, is whether this 

work can be better done by a number of small~ committees or by one 

large committee. I am inclined to agree with the gentleman who has 

submitted the proposition, that it would be better to have one large committee on expenditures than to have a number of small committees. 

A large committee could be divided into subcommittees, and that is 

the practice in theBritish Parliament, just as theAppropri:ations Committee is divided into subcommittees. AfterthatCommitteeonAppropriations had recommended its appropriations then here would come 

in another committee to look after the expenditure of that money. I 

believe that one committee taking all the Departments, inquiring into 

all the expenditures, following them up-a committee ha>ing the power 

to do so, and a committee intended to exercise that power not only in 

this House but in future Houses-wonld be more efficient than a number of smaller committees. I am therefore in favor of the proposition 

submitted by the gentleman from Illinois [Ur. 'SPRINGER]. -

Mr. IDLL. · Mr. Speaker, the fad is, these committees on expenditures in the several Departments are not allowed clerks under the rule 

except by the report of the Committee on Accounts, which has to be 

approved by the Honse itself. So that the whole subject is under the 

control of the Honse, and not a single solitary dollar of expense will 

be added by the continuation of these committees except under special 

order of the House itself. · 

Mr. SPRINGER: Which always follows. 

Mr. HILL. You wanted two or three last Congress, and you got them 

because you asked fo.r them and because the House thought yon ought to 

have them. That is the fault ofthe Houseandnotthefaultofthe rules. 

I dislike to hear members quote the rules of the British Parliament 

as a precedent for the action of this Honse. That Parliament wonld 

do better, Mr. Speaker, to follow our example. I am opposed to following the example of the British Parliament, or that of any other 

monarchical form of government on th·e face of the earth. Let them 

follow ours. 

.As has been remarked by the gentleman from Texas on my right 

[l\Ir. REAGAN], the time may come when these committees may be 

useful even if there is nothing for them to qo now. Why then abolish 

them when they are accompanied by no expense? Ifthere is work to do 

they can report it to the Honse, au(!. ask the authority of this House to 

eru1ble them to do that work, and that is all there is of it. I hope the 

amendment of the gentleman from Illinois will not prevail 

1\Ir. MORRISON. I move the previous question upon the amendment. 
312 OONGRESSIONAL REOORD-HOUSE. DECEMBER 18, 

Mr. SPRINGER. I hope my colleague will yield to me to make a single correction. 

Mr. MORRISON. Very well. 

Mr. SPRINGER. The committee of which I was chairman in the 

last session of Congress had a clerk and a messenger. The messenger 

may have been put in the Directory as a clerk, but the resolution under 

which he was appointed called him a messenger, and he was a messen- ger, although sometimes he acted as a clerk, and was an exceeding use- ful man. Further, let me say, that committee had use for both these 

officers the whole se...~ion. I do not think that any committee of the 

House sat more hours or did more hard work than did that committee. 

But that was the only one of these committees named here that did 

any work; and hence I was of opinion that one committee, that had 

work to do, would succeed in doing more business than the whole lot 

of these committees together. 

Mr. MORRISON. I now demand the previous question. 

The previous question was ordered; and under the operation thereof 

the amendment of M:r. SPRINGER was rejected. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

Clause 2. He sh!lll appoint all select committees which shall be ordered by ihe House from time to time. 

M:r. HAMMOND. Mr. Speaker, I offer an amendment to this 

clause. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

All the end of the second paragraph of Rule X, line 86, insert: 

"The jurisdiction of said committees shall be as prescribed in the ru1es or laws 

and resolutions ordering select committees, but no general legislation shall be 

in order.on any general appropriation bill, nor as an amendment thereto; and no appropriation shall be reported in any general appropriation bill or be in 

order as an amendment thereto for any expenditure not previously authorized 

by law, unless in continuance of appropriations for such public works and objects as are already in progress." 

Mr. HAMMOND. I propose to incorporate that provision as a part 

of the rule just read after the list of committees, in line 86, and before we come to the consideration of Rule XI, in which we will have a con- test over the distribution of the powers of the House among the com- mittees, that being the rule that prescribes the powers and duties of 

the committees. ·'' 

It is well, :Mr. Speaker, that we should understanp whether the appropriations committees'of this House will have power longer to put 

general legislation upon their bills or not. If they have that power, 

gentlemen mny vote in one way who would occupy a different position 

if the power was taken away from them. I think it is proper, therefore, to define in advance the jurisdiction, or the want of it, of these 

various committees. The amendment which I have sent to the desk 

regulating the jurisdiction of the committees is almost exaetly that 

reported hy the Committee on Rules, except. that it leaves out the 

words ''and for the contingencies for carrying on the several Departments of the Government,'.' aa prescribed in Rule XXI. 

Mr. MORRISON. I have no objection to the gentleman making a statement or offering an amendment, but I desire to save the point of 

orde:r that this does .not belong to this part of the resolution before the 

House and is not in order in this section. 

Mr. HAMMOND. After I have offered an amendment and spoken 

for five minutes upon it it is too late for the gentleman to make the 

poin·t of order. But there is no point of order such as the gentleman 

suggests, nor was any point of order reserved. 

b'lr. UORRISON. The point of order I make is that it is not germane here. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair thinks it is a matter for the House to 

determine in what part of the report it will insert any particular provision. Althol_lgh the Chair may agree that it does not harmonize with 

the general tenorofthereportatthispoint, it is a question for the House 

to decide. . Mr. MORRISON. I insist if it goes in at all that it shall go in in 

connection with the section to which it properly belongs. 

Mr. HAMMOND. The natnr~ thing is to find out in advance 

whether this or the other side intends to retain thepowertokeepriders on appropriation bills or not. If they do, one course of conduct may be 

necessary. If they do not, quite a different course may be necessary, 

and therefore I hope that the House will agree to come to a vote at once upon this most important question; and when I say at once I do not mean without debate, but! mean without postponing the question until we shall h..1.ve reaehed the consideration of Rule XXI, after all the 

other adjustments of the duties of committees have been made, for it 

may be that if that delay be had, then what gentlemen suppose obtainable now may not be within the grasp of the Honse. 

:M:r. BLOUNT. I ask to have the amendment again reported. 

The amendment was again read. · The SPEAKER. The question is on agreeing to the amendment propo ed by the gentleman from Georgia. Mr. HISCOCK. ):t seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that this question had 

better be deferred to the point in the report of the committee where it can be properly considered. The proper policy would seem to be, 

when we reach that point, to consider it where the amendment is ger- mane to the subject-matter, and we can then take it up and consider it. 

I believe there is no doubt but that the rule covers it as reported, 

but if it be necessary to make it stronger I shall be in favor of making 

it stronger. Still I see no connection that it has with the present subject which will not permit it to be deferred to that point. 

There is one question which has been debated on this floor at great 

length; and I fancy, sir, that under the amendment now offered there 

is a covert attempt to obscure that question. I prefer to meet that question fairly when it is presented, and I am opposed to any amendment 

of the rules at this time which shall have the effect to obscure it. 

Mr. MORRISON. Unless the gentleman from Georgia consents his 

amendment shall come at the appropriate place I shall move to lay it on the table. 

The SPEAKER. That can not be done; an amendment can not be 

laid on the table. 

Mr. McKINLEY. Itoccursto me, Mr. Speaker, that we shouldhave a fair opportunity to vote upon this question of whether we are to ha>e 

hereafter riders upon appropriation bills. 

Mr. MORRISON. Yon will have that opportunity. 

Mr. McKINLEY. It occurstomeweoughttohavethatopportunity now and that we ought to adopt the amendment of the gentleman from 

Georgia, whether we distribute the appropriation bills or continue those 

bills with the Appropriations Committ~e. It does seem tome if we are to meet this question fairly we ought to be permitted to vote upon it 

before we reach the question of the distribution of the bills. 

:Mr. HAMMOND. The gentleman from New York [Mr. HiscoCK] 

has said this amendment had better come in its regular order. He 

thinks that perhaps there is something covert in it. !appeal to those 

who know me in this House to sustain me iri the assertion that I do 

nothing covertly. My purpose is plain. · It is to find out in the beginning, before these additional avenues to the Treasury shall be opened, 

how far the...~ several appropriation bills may carry general legislation. 

I want to know when the flood comes how high itmustrise before I vote. 

Ur. HISCOCK. I desire to say this to the gentleman, that as far as this side of the House is concerned he will find us a unit-every man of us. Mr. McKINLEYr Why not vote it now? 

Mr. HISCOCK. And I say that also to the gentleman from Ohio, · there will be no division on this side of the House in voting for a proposition at the right and proper time to eliminate all legislation from 

appropriation bills. 

Mr. McKINLEY. Let us make our record now. :M:r. HISCOCK. I have the right to say that precipitating the amendment at this time was intended to obscure anothei: question. 

1\Ir. BLOUNT. I can not see how voting upon this proposition will 

obscure anything. It proposes what the gentleman from New York 

[Mr. HiscocK] admits is correct, that no matter whether these bills are distributed or whether they remain with the Appropriations Committee there shall be no legislation upon appropriation bills. What can be obscured by that declaration? 

Does not this proposition remove any obscurity? Does it not leave 

the qliestio~ cle.1r from any other as to whether or not the appropriQotion bills are to be separated? And will not the .House be better able 

to reach a conclusion by a direct vote upon this proposition than it will 

be by taking the order in which these several propositions will be 

brought to us as presented in this report? I trust we shall be 'allowed 

to have a vote now. There can be nothing covert in this proposition. 

Take the vote now and whe~ yon approa.ch the other questions yon 

will approach them absolutely free to net. I believe now is the time 

that this vote should be taken. 

MESSAGE FROM THE SENATE. 

A message from the Senate, by Mr. McCooK, its Secretary, informed 

the House that the Senate had ..Passed a bill (S. 580) granting a pension 

to Julia D. Grant; in which the concurrence of the House was requested. 

THE RULES. 

1\fr. HOLMAN. lli. Speaker, I think it is unfortunate that my 

friend from Georgia has thought proper to present this subject at this 

time, but I do not know what action the House may think proper to 

take, and I desire to offer an amendment to the pending proposition. 

I therefore offer as a substitute that which I send to the desk. 

Mr. BLOUNT. Will the gentleman from Indiana yield to me for a 

moment? • 1\Ir. HOLl\fAN. Certainly. 

Mr. BLOUNT. I wish to say I was under a wrong apprehension 

when I stated my impression that the pending propositions related only 

to the question whether there should be legislation on appropriation 

bills. I find it ·does involve other questions. 

The Clerk read M:r. HoLMAN s proposed substitute, as follows: 

No appropriation shall be reported in any. general appropriation bill, or be in 

order as an amendment thereto, for any expenditure not previously authorized 

by law, unless in continuation of appropriations for such public works and objects as are already in progress, and for the contingencies for carrying on the 

several Departments of the Government; nor shall any provision changing ex• i ting law be in order upon any general appropriation bill, or be received ns an amendment thereto; but provisions or amendnlents for the direct reduction of 

the number, salary, and compensation of officers and employes of the United 

States shall be in order on a general appropriation bill if germane to the subject.- matter _of the bill. 

Mr. HISCOCK. Is that offered now as an amendment? 
{ 

1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 313 

The SPEAKER. It is offered by the gentleman from Indiana [Mr. 

HoLMAN] now on the floor as a substitute for the proposition of the 

gentleman from Georgia. 

Mr. HISCOCK. I desire to inquire whether it is in order at this 

point? 

The SPEAKER. As a substitute for the amendment offered by the 

gentleman from Georgia it is in order. 

Mr. ANDERSON, of Kansas. I rise to a parliamentary inquiry. At 

what point is it proposed that the amendment of the gentleman from 

Georgia shall come in ? 

The SPEAKER. After line 86. 

Mr. HOLMAN. Mr. Speaker, it will be observed that the proposition I submit takes the rule as reported by the Committee on Rules 

in exact terms, including the words ''and for contingencies for carrying on the several Departments of the Government." It retains those 

words and adds the language which I desire the Clerk to read again. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

Nor shall anyprovision changing existing law be in order upon any appro- priation bill or be received as an amendment thereto; but provisions or amend- ments for the direct reduction of the number, salary, and compensation of officers 

and employes of the United States shall be in order on a general appropriation 

bill if germane to the subject-matter of the bilL 

Mr. HOLMAN. Mr. Speaker, the language incorporated in the rule 

by the committee~ "and for the contingencies for carrying on the sev- eral Departments of the Government,'' makes it the same as the old rule · adopted in 1836, and manifestly opens a very wide door, unless by a subsequent provision you impose a clear restriction. It is for this purpose I have offered these additional words. I certainly hope that the 

power of the House-to reduce, on any .bill to which the matter is germane, the number and salaries of officers of the United States will not 

be taken away. If these bills are to be distributed, let ea-ch of the 

committees having charge of appropriation bills exerci e this power. 

I hope that no gentleman will object to the House retaining this power 

of retrenchment on proper bills. 

I apprehend that in_ the absence of a severe restriction the words in 

italics, reported as an addition to this rule, would be found mischiev- ous to the last degree, because the history of this clause, which was contained in the old rule, must become ultimately, from the necessity 

of the case, a portion of the rule; and· when originally adopted as a part of the old rule it was adopted avowedly for the purpose of allowing the increase of salaries. It was so decided at the beginning, and 

so decided up to the time of the passage of the famous salary mea..o;ure, 

which resulted in the adoption of the rule that it is now sought to 

abrogate, tho "tal part of which will be retained if the proposition I 

have submitted as an amendment be adopted. 

Mr. MORRISON. I wis~ merely to say that this proposition does 

not properly come in at this point; and therefore I hope it will be voted 

Jown, that it may come up iu its regular order. 

Mr. REED, of Maine. That is the actual fact about the situation. 

The gec."'!emaa from Georgia [Mr. IiA..!DIOND] is undoubtedly correct, 

and,_ as all of us will bear witness, nobody suspects him of any metho<ls that are unsuitable. 

1\Ir. HAMAfOND. That may "be true, except as to the vice-president 

of the other side. 

Mr. REED, of Maine. It is something I should say almost anywhere. 

Mr. HAMMOND. The gentleman did not understand my remark. 

I said the gentleman's suggestion was probably true except as to the 

vice-president of that side, who has said he did suspect. 

Mr. REED, of Maine. I do not understand the allusion. I desire 

simply to remark that while the gentleman from Georgia has said the 

truth in regard to his intentions and his duties toward this House, 

nevertheless, like all of us, he is perfectly willing to avail himself of 

il.ny fair and honorable parliamentary strategy; and his object in pressing this matter now is to disarrange the order of affairs. In the report 

of the committee this matter is in its proper place and regular order; 

and it is perfectly apparent from the discussions in this House what 

will be the result of the vote. Everybody must understand precisely 

what is going to be done. Now the object of putting this proposition 

forward is to make some confusion in members' minds on this subject. 

It seems to me perfectly plain that the proper method of procedure for us is to take up the matter in its regular order, as proposed in thereport of the committee. I therefore hope, for my part, that this proposition will be voted down for the present, in order that it may be met 

and voted upon by the House in language which, in my view, would 

be more suitable for accomplishing the object which the gentleman 

from Georgia, in common with myself, undoubtedly has in view. 

Mr. HAMMOND. Mr. Speaker, the object of "the gentleman from 

Georgia ' ' and that of the gentleman from Maine [Mr. REED] are very 

different. To a certain extent we agree, but at a particular point we 

separate, he taking seven or eight roads and I trying to keep one, after 

we shall have determined what to do. If the power belongs to nine 

committees it will be a greater evil to add to that power than if it belongs to one. So it will be in proportion-to the number of committees 

to which it may be distributed. This House can not know until a vote has been taken on it in what form the prohibition against riders 

may be made. There are various _propositions, and gentlemen differ as 

to the verbiage of such restriction when it shall come in, and therefore 

I insist before we undertake to handle the question of distribution at 

aU we ought to know where we are going. And if this is a mere objection to form or place, I admit that it is according to the report of the 

Committee on Rules, and I thought I had made myself plain that I have 

been :fighting that report from the beginning to the end. [Cries of 

"Vote!"] 

Mr. REAGAN. I desire to make this one explanation. I favor the 

amendment of the gentleman from Indiana and will vote for it when 

it is reaehed in proper order, but I shall vote against all these amendments until the proper time has been reached. 

Mr. HOLl\IAN. I withdraw my substitute. 

The question then recurred on Mr. HA.MMGND'S amendment; and it 

was disagreed to. 

Mr. HAMMOND. I offer the following amendment, to come in after 

line 86: 

The Clerk read as follows: 

Amend by inserting at the end of the second paragraph of Rule X, at the end 

of line 86, the following paragraph : 3. The jurisdiction of said committees shall be as prescribed in the rules or laws and resolutions ordering select committees. But no general legislation shall be in order on any general appropriation bill nor as an amendment thereto, 

and no appropriation shall be reported in any gen~al appropria~ion bill, or be 

in order as an amendment thereto, for any expenditure not previously authorized by law, unle sin continuation of appropriations for such works and objects ns are already in progre s and for contingencies for carrying on the several De- partments of Government. · 

Mr. HAMMOND. That is like the amendmeritwhich has just been 

>oted upon, with the addition of the words "and for the contingencies · ·. for carrying on the several Departments of the Government," which 

are printed in the bill in italics. 

Mr. MORRISON. I hope it will be voted down. 

The amendment was disagreed to. 

Mr. DOUGHERTY rose. The SPEAKER. The Chair will state to the gentlemen who filed 

their amendments last evening to be printed in the RECORD that it is 

necessaq to offer them upon the floor at the proper time; that is to say, 

when the clause to which they are in order shall be reached. The amend- ment sent up by the gentleman from Florida is toRule XIV, which we 

have not yet reached. • Mr. DOUGHERTY. I will reserve my amendment then until we 

reach Rule XIV. 

The Clerk read as follows: RULE XI. 

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COXMITTEES. 

All proposed legislation shall be referred to the committees named in the preceding rule, as follows., namely: Subjects relating- !. to the election of members: to the Committee on Elections; 

2. to the revenue and the bonded debt of the United St3tes: to the Committee on Ways and 111cans; 

3. to appropriation of the revenue for the support of the Government, as he1·ein p i"O l'ided, 1;iz: for legisla.ti1:e, executive, and judicia£ expenses; for sundry civil exp enses; f or f ortifications: for the District of Columb ia ; for pensions; and for all deficiencies: to the Committee on Appropriations. 

Mr. CANNON. I move to strike out, in line 106, ·commencing with 

the word ' 'as '' and cone! uding with the word '' deficiencies,'' in line 109. 

The SPEAKER. The Clerk will read the words which it is proposed 

to strike out--

As herein provided, viz: for legislative, executive, and jndical expenses; for 

sundry civil expenses; for fortifications; for the District of Columbia ; for pen- ·ions; and for all deficiencies. • 

1\Ir. HAl\DIOND. I rise to a parliamentary inquiry. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman will state it. 

Mr. HAMMOND. Is the motion of the gentleman from Tilinois in 

order? Is not the question on concurring in the particular amendment of the Committee on Rules? 

The SPEAKER The report of the committee is one entire proposition, but gentlemen have a right to a. division in taking votes on it. 

The gentleman proposes an amendment to the report of the committee 

by striking out the words indicated, which the Chair thinks is proper. 

:Mr. BLOUNT. I desire to make a parliamentary inquiry. 

'l -1 e SPEAKER. The gentleman will state it. 

Ur. BLOUNT. Would it be in order to offer to the amendment of 

the gentleman from Illinois an amendment giving tothe Committee on Foreign Affairs the same privilege in relation to the organization of the 

State Department and the diplomatic service which is accorded to the 

Committee on Ways and Means a~d the Committee on Appropriations; . and to the Committee on Uilitary Affairs the same privilege in relation 

to the organization of the War Department and the Army, and to the 

Committee on Naval Affairs like privilege as to bills relating to the 

naval establishment and the organization of the Navy Department? 

The SPEAKER. The Chair will state to the gentleman from Georgia. 

that when he gets the floor in his own right it will be in order to o1i"er 

that amendment at the proper place. Clause 49 Of Rule XI is the one 

wliic~ prescribes the duties of committees as to the manner of making 

their reports. While the amendment would be more proper there than 

here, stilli twill be in order here if the gentleman thinks proper to offer it. 

Mr. CANNON. Mr. Speaker, I am constrained to call attention to a. remark made by the gentleman from New York [Ur. HISCOCK] day 

before yesterday, I believe, and which is published in the CoNGRES-
314 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. DECEMBER 18, 

SION .AL RECORD of the 17th instant. I send the RECORD to the Clerk's 

desk to be read where I have marked it. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

:Mr. Hrscocx.. Take my own experience with reference to those bills. I had the power; I grant it. .And when I had it I did not bring in those bills early; I gtan that. I could have done so if I had desired. But what did I do? I h e ld back the legislative and sundry civil bills until away in July to force this House to pass the little internal-re>enue bill and to pass the Tariff Commission bill 1\Ir. RANDALL. There was a little log-rolling. 

l'tir. Hlscocx. Oh, yes. 1tir. l'tfoRRISo:s-. Who log-rolled with you? _ l\Ir. Hrscocx. I did it on the ground I have stated, and I say if you will ex- amine the RECORD you will find thn.t on the floor of this House I distinctly 

proclaimed my intention and policy to the country. l'tiy action was not covert. It was taken boldly and manfully. "'Whether I ought to h a ve ha.d that power or not, p erhaps, sir, is questionable. Since I had it I chose to exercise it. And I believe in that particular case it was wisely exercised. 

1\Ir. CANNON. All who heard the remarks which have just been read bytheClerkin theHou eofRepresentativeswereprofoundlystruck 

with it. Indeed I may say throughout the length and breadth of the 

country it created a profound impression. The next morning there was nearly a column article in the New York Tribune in ;reference to it, 

from which article I read a short extract. .A.fter speaking of Mr. HISCOCK'S very able speech-and it was an able speech-the writer of that 

article proceeded to say, among other things, as follows: 

To 1\Ir. HiscoCK, who was for two years chairman and for four y ears a mem- ber of the Appropriations Committee, the House to-day became indebted for a. 

searching expo ure of the arbitrary methods of that committee, a n d also for a powerful and convincing argument in fa>or of curtailing it e normous power. lU peech was the most eft'ective one delivered since the d ebate began. He remembered what most of the other speakers seemed to have forgotten-the necessity of enlightening the one hundred and thirty-five new members respecting the evils from which the Honse has suffered in the past and the importance of convincing them that the changes proposed will facilitate business and pr~ 

mote orderly legislation. 

I can say that in the remarks which the gentleman from New York 

made the House got the impression, which I believe still remains, 

that the gentleman from New York as chairman of the Committee on 

Appropriations in the Forty-seventh Congress did have the power to 

withhold these bills by virtue of that chairmanship and did have power 

to control the business in this House; that hence it was an unsafe power, 

and tbat be was a shining example of its arbitrary use. :Mr. MILLIKEN. May I ask the gentleman a question? 

Mr. CANNON. I have but a few moments. 

Mr. 1\fiLLIKEN. I only want to ask the gentleman if he does not 

belie•e that every member of the Forty-eighth Congress has the same 

opinion without being informed by the gentleman from New York. 

Mr. CANXON. Ah, the gentleman insists on asking a question 

when I have but :five minutes, but I will inform him before I get 

through. 

[Here the hammer fell] 

1\Ir. ROWELL took the floor and by consent yielded his time to Mr. 

CANNON. 

Mr. CANNON. lli. Speaker, under the rules of the House the 

highest question of privilege is the right of a member to a seat, which comes from the Elections Committee. Under the rules of the House 

the next question of privilege is the consideration of revenue bills, com- ing from the Committee on Ways and Means; and next the generalappropriation bills, in the order of which I speak, the nu1,_jo1·ity of this 

Hou e alway having the power to control its bU-siness under its rules. 

Now; then, I want to say to the House and to the gentleman from New 

York, who cau correct me if I set down aught in error, in the Fortyseventh Congress we, the Republicans, commenced with a bare majority of2. We had one hundred and forty-nine members and we cau- cused frequently. We had a caucus committee, of which I had the 

honor to be a member along with the gentleman from New York himself, I believe, and others. He was the chairman of the Committee on Appropriations and I was a member of that committee. There was a 

majority of Republicans, barely a majority, in the Forty-seventh Congress, first session, :md that majority concluded to pass important meas- ures-the Edmunds bill, touching the Mormons; reports of the Committee on Elections for the purpose of ·seating members of this House 

who had been duly elected to the House but kept out of the4' seats by 

improper returns; and to do that we had to so amend the rules as to 

prevent :filibustering; also to pn.ss what was known as the little reve- nue bill, decreasing taxation some $9...5,000,000, and to extend the charters of the national banks by generallegi.S'lation. All these were matters considered by the Republican caucus, and it is an open secret to ,every member on this side of the Hotise that it was determined in cau- cus that no bills of any kind should obstruct these matters of legislation. 

In pursuance of the determination of the House, or oftlle majority of 

the House in. this matter, the gentleman from New York then in charge 

of the Committee on Appropriations did pursue the course pointed out as the organ of that committee, and speaking through the committee as the voice of the majority. of the House of Representatives (not the 

voice of the gentleman from New York) indicated. And, l\lr. Speaker, 

there is nobody that knew it better than did he; for while I have not time 

to read what he said upon that occasion-I wish I bad-I have theremarks of the gentleman before me, his able speeches made in July and 

August, 188~. in the House. in which he speaks of this action and avows 

that it was had not as the chairman of the Committee on Appropriations, but as all the Republican majority of this House at that time, as myfriendfromPennsylvania [l\Ir. BINGHAM] and _the gentleman from 

1\Iaine [Mr. REED], the gentleman from Ohio (Mr. M:cKTh"LEY], and 

every other member on this floor who was a member of the Forcyeventh Congress on this side of the House, knows as the action of that 

Republican majority. . 

Mr. Spea-ker, how much time have I remaining? 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman has two minutes of his time re- maining. 

1\fr. CANl\ON. I would have been glad, sir, had further tinie been 

accorded tome, bot I can not under the discussion allowed by the rules 

hope to extend the time. I will, however, if thm·e be no objection, incorporate the remarks of the gentleman from New York in myremn.rks 

to show what the facts were to Vfhich I now refer. 

Now, 1\Ir. Speaker, the statement of the gentleman from New York 

made the other day as it found a lodgment in the minds of the members of this House, when punctured by the spear of fact, when you 

leave the domain of romance, fades like the baseless fabric of a vision. 

There is no man in this House of greater ability than the gentleman 

from New York, in my opinion; none for whom I entertain a higher 

respect, none mo.re able when he keeps within the domain of fact and 

out of the domain of 1·t>mance. I do not complain be~ use the. gentle- man from New York changed his opinion touching the distribution of 

these bills since the Forty-sixth Congress, when he voted U.:,!Yflin t the 

propo ition, as shown by the record. Sir, he had a right to change. 

But after the gentleman rose yesterday and corrected his speech in one matter and did not correct it in this I felt it to be my duty in the 

interest of fair play to call the attention of the House to these facts. 

And now, sir, I insert in the RECORD, in pursuance of notice given, a part of the speech of the gentleman from N~w York, made at the clo e of the Forty-seventh Congress, w bile he was chairman of the Appropriations Committee, as follows: 

Now, 1\Ir. Chairman, I may be pardoned for saying a. word in reference to the late day at which the appropriation bills have been presented to the House . This has been a long and laborious ession; and, ir, it ha-s not been the inten- tion of the committee of which I have the honor to be the chairman to crowd its appropriation bills upen the attention of the House to the exclusion of other public business. 'Ve have recognized the fact that we came here not alone to pa s appropriation bills to support the Government and enable it to di. charge its various functions and duties, but that the country had the right to demand of us certain generallegi lation of great public benefit, and that it was our duty rather to hold back the appropriation bills that such general legislation might 

have consideration than to force the appropriation bill upon the House to the exclusion of that legislation if that exclusion would result in its defeat. 

It was the duty of this Congress to reapportion the members of Congre s to the various States. The last Congress failed in that great eon titutional duty. It was a matter which we were to dispose of. The Constitution imposed it upon us. It took time; it took consideration. It received the necessary considera- tion at our hands; and a bill was perfected and passed with which I believe the whole country is satisfied. Another important question has claimed the attention of Congress, the revision of the tariff. For years there has been an effort to readjust in some way the cus- toms duties. The Forty-fourth, the Forty-fifth, and the Forty-sixth Congre es failed in all efforts in that direction, until it seemed to be the settled sentiment of the whole country that a tariff commission should be created to which this subject should be referred. The last Congress had failed to pass a law, though there was a public demand for such a measure. This Congress has considered the subject and disposed of it. No man can prophesy what tesult may come from it; but we have at least answered the demands of the country that the legislation should be had. I shall not go through with all the various matters which have occupied the attention of this Congress; but there are one or two others to which I will refer. The Pacific coast has been for years agitated by Chinese immigration. The ques- tion within what restrictions or limits the Chinese should be allowed to immi- grate to this country other Congresses had confronted as we confronted it. 'Ve believed a. policy should be determined upon and the subject be removed from politics; that. the people of the Pacific States and of the whole country, however the que tion might be determined, would be better oft' if it were settled. This Congress has considered aud disposed of that question. 

It is removed from politics. It has ceased to be a disquieting intluence in the communities on the Pacific coast. Sir, one other matter, perhaps in its effects not as widespread as the Chinese 

question, but more pernicious, more poisonous in my opinion, claimed the atten- tion of Congress-the Mormon question. For twenty years or more that comflo~~~tyitt~i!~~;'~=~dt;!i( t~~eG~~~~e~ ~~1~tt~~~:::~~s f~s~ ing the institution ; that it was under the protection of the Federal Congress. It had increased, it had strengthened until as an ulcer in our social and political 

system it was recognized and abhorred by every Christian community through- out the length and breadth of the land. There came to us in the Forty-fit'th and Forty-sixth Congresses appeals from our constituents to destroy and do away with this offense to our civilization, yet those appeals were denied. This Congress, sir, has answered the a.~pea.ls of Cluistian constituencies. It has perfected the legislation which we believe will 

destroy the institution of :Mormon, the :Mormon hierarchy, as a. political force and political body. Appropriation bills were not pressed against that legislation. 

There is, Mr. Chairman, another matter we have taken time to consider. We believed it was the duty of an American Congress before it disposed of its busine , before its last days were reached, to settle the question of the title of members to their seats. We believed it was our right to know whether the gentleman whose vote and voice might offset or defeat the vote and voice of another was entitled to vote and voice. We believed, for the settlement of grave business and political questions hy the American Congress, it was the fir t duty of Congress to purge itself of members not entitled to seats, and to seat in their places those entitled to them. We believed it wa.s a. duty we owed to the coun- try that men who were elected should represent the constituencies which ~ad 

elected them; and we believed thatitwa.sadutyweowedto theseconstituenCle . 'Ve believed every constituency had the right of representation upon the ftoor of this House, and that he who had received a majority vote in a Congressional district should be the one to represent it. We encountered great delay, but still we did consider these matters and quE>.e-

. ,_ 

I 
1885. CONGRESSIO~AL RECORD-HOUSE. 315 

tions to the exclusion of the consideration of a.pproJ!riation bills, ~nd we did 

get a vote upon the election cases which the Committee on Elections could 

bring before us. We did as a. Republican party dispose of them, and at the first, 

the present session of Congress rather than defer them to the last days of the 

last session, then to be disposed of by paying the f~l sa.lary bot~ t-o the con- testant and the contestee without regard to our own rights or the rights of consti~ueccies. . . to b ll d There is one other nutter I must not forget. Commgm power, ~e e eve that it was the duty of Con~ess t-o investigate the subject of taxation .. The:r:e were the old war taxes leVIed and collected year after year. We believed 1t was the duty Qf the Republican party to consider-whe~er an overbur<;Ien~?d people couldnotberelievedfromsome of them. We coUSldered the question m this House. We have given to it all the time needed for debate. We have ac- complished this, if our actions shall be approved by the Senate. We have re- moved from the people taxation to the amount of ~,000,000 a year a.t least. 

Under our national bankinglawmost of the charters of the banks ~er~ about to expire. Here was a question of pressing importance. That exp1mtlon, :Mr. 

Chairman with the consequent withdrawal of circulation, threatene~ a contrac- tion of th~ currency, a disturbance of b~ess and almo.st a financial convulsion in the great business centers. We believed that ~ur trme was deiD:anded to provide legislation on the subject, that it was the busmess of a Republican .Congre s not to pass appropriation billB, adjourn, and g? home, but to de.vote 1~elf 

to the business interests of the country, and that thlS was one question which 

demanded our closest attention. It is not unfair to say Mr. Chairman, that on this question as on others we were not aided by the opposition as a pa.rty. I concede, sir, that there were some patriotic men who joined hands with us in this legislation as they did in refer- ence to other. But the fullest debate on this as on ~ll. que tions was ~ted, 

a.nd in the end a law was passed by this ~ouse proV1dmg f?r the e~DSlon of 

bank charters, averting the financial pamc ~d catastrophe _rmpending. As stated by the gentleman from Georgia: flUr. Coox], sm~e t4en .we ~ve 

been borrowing money at 2 pe~ cent. I~ will be well for hlm:, to his credit I mean, and I am willing to have his cxpress10nprese~ed forever m my remar~s. 

I must beg the pard<>n of the. committee for. havmg ta~en up so much ?f Its 

time not so much in the discnsswn of the details of the bill as of the.details ?f 

all the appropriation bills which have come before the House, and m t~e discussion of tho e great 9uesti?ns which ha.v~ b.een tp.e ooca~o~ of de~y m the 

pre ntation and consideration of appropnat10n bills, which m my Judgment 

afforded ample justification for whatever delay may have taken place. I now move that the committee rise for the purpose of limiting general debate. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

1\lr. SPRINGER. I do not know what is the object of my colleague 

in movino- this amendment. He has not stated it in his remarks. I 

presumed he desired to make a personal explanation. I desire to move an amendment to the amendment that I may speak to the question on its merits. My amendment is to strike out the words indicated in the 

amendment of my colleao-ue and to insert•after the word" Government" the word "except;" so that it will read: To appropriations of the revenue for the support of the Government except as herein provided. · 

The object of my amendment is that the bills shall not be enumer- ated but simply to provide that the appropriations for the support of 

the Government shall be left to the Committeemi Appropriations" except as herein provided." . . . . . The legislative and executive bill and alsothesundrymvil bill, which are mentioned here, contained in them numerous items for the support 

of the Army and the Navy and the Post·Office Department, and relating to foreign affairs and Indian affairs. I hold in my hand the law 

passed at the last session upon these respective subjects; and it will be 

seen that page after page of the sundry civil bill is devoted to appropriations for the support of the Navy and the support of the ~my and 

the support of the Indian Bureau. In a s~bsequent part of this ~eport 

these subjects are referred to other committees. The enumeration of 

bills mentioned in this partofthereportrefers the same subjects to the 

.Appropriations Committee. :r'he resul~ of this" '_Vill ~e co~on worse confourided when the respective committees bnng m then: bills upon 

the e subjects. 

As stated by the gentleman from Indian.a a day or two ago, the sundry 

ci vii bill has grown up from year to year to its present enonnol!B proportions from having been merely a little bill to correct some omissions 

in the other bills. It is now composed entirely of those items fur the 

support of the Government which might be put in any other of the bills 

of the House without any detriment to the public service or any marring 

of the harmony of these propositions. It is well known to gentlemen 

that a few ye..'U'S ago, when the sundry civil bill was about to be defeated, and hen it was defeated, just before the adjournment of Congress on the 4th of March, one of the committees of conference deliberately took page after page out of the sundry civil bill andput it in the 

leo-islative and executive bill in order to sav-e those clauses; and that 

blll was passed, the sundry civil bill ha.ving been defeated. . . The proposition as it now stands reported from the Comm1ttee on Rules refers itemafteritem,line after line, relatingtothesamesubject, 

to two different committees, and it will result in the greatest confusion 

when we come to consider these matters in Committee of the Whole op. 

the reports of separate committees. 

The proposition which I had referred to the Comm.itteeonRnlesprovided that two subjects should be referred to the respective committees; 

that all the subjects relating to forei,o-n affa.irs and the Post-Office Department and the .Army and the Navy should be referred to the committees having charge respectively of those branches of the seiTice. 

This would require a recasting of this report, but it would secure harmony and perfect consistencyin the apportionment of the duties ~fthe 

several committees. · Mr. BLOUNT. I offer an amendment, which I send to the desk. 

The SPEAKER. Two amendments are now pending. The Chair 

will recognize the gentleman from Georgia at the proper time. The 

Chair understands the proposition of the gentleman from Illinois 

[Mr. SPRINGER] strikes out the word "as." 

Mr. SPRINGER. No, sir. The proposition is to insert the word 

"except" before the word "as;" so that it will read" except as 

herein provided.'' 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman then offers his amendment as a substitute for the amendment of his colleague [Mr. C.ANNoY]? 

Mr. SPRINGER. Yes, sir. 

The SPEAKER. And the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. Cll""NON] 

proposes to strike out the words which follow. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I do not knowwhethermy colleague desires to have 

his amendment v-oted on or not, as he did not speak on his amendment. 

Mr. SPEAKER. The first question is on the amendment that the 

gentleman from illinois [1\Ir. SPRINGER] offers as a substitute for 

that of his colleague [Mr. CANNOY]. 

Mr. HOLl\.fAN. I ask that it be again reported, that it may be 

understood. 

The amendment of :Mr. SPRIXGER, offered as a subsii.tute, was again 

read. 

Mr. BLOUNT. I would like to know if it would be in order to offer 

an amendment to the substitute of the gentleman from illinois [Mr. 

SPRINGER]. 

The SPEAKER. It would. 

Mr. SPRINGER. To avoid confusion I will. withdraw my substitute 

for the present, and allow the vote to be taken on the amendment of my 

colleague. 

1\Ir. BLOUNT. I offer as an amendment to the amendment what I 

send to the desk. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

The Committee on Foreign A.ffairsshallha.ve the same privileges in reporting t 

and having considered bills in relation to organizing the State JJepartment and 

the consular and diplomatic service as are a.ccorded to the Committees on Appropriations and 'Yays and 1\reans. . . . . . The Committee on Military Affarrs shall have like pnvileges as to bills relating to the organization of the W:a.r Departmen~ or th~ ~y. . . The Committee on Naval Atfa.rrs shall have like privileges as to bills rela.tmg to the organiza.tion of the Navy Department, the Navy, and additions of vessels to the same. • . The Pgst,..Office Committee shall have like privileges as to. bills relatmg; to the 

organization of the Post-Office Department, the trausportatton of the mails, and 

regulating rates of postage. 

The Commit~ on Indian Affairs shallha.ve like ~rtvileges as to bills relating to the regulation of Indian tribes. 

1\Ir. BLOUNT. Gentlemen have asked me why I have offered this 

proposition. It will be o~rve~ I do not underf-:ake to prescribe w~at 

are all the subjects ofconstderationofthe Committee on NavalAffaiis, or the Committee on Foreign Affairs, or the Committee on Military Affairs of the Post-Office Committee or of the Committee on Indian Affairs~ but my object is this: The propo ition of the gentleman from illinois t:~Ir. CANNON] is to give all the appropriation bills to the Committee on Appropriations. The difficulty has been heretofore that by rea- son of the inability of the several committees having relation to the De~ 

partments to have a hearing upon this floor the Committee on Appropriations have been enabled to take charge of a very large part ot the 

legislation of this Honse. This created infinite discontent on the part 

of the other committees of the Honse and has produced unwise and 

hasty legislation. . Again, sir, I think it ought to be in the power of some colDIDlttee or 

this House other than the Committee on Appropriations to bring forward propositions relating to the organization of the Army or Navy ot 

the United St~tes, to the organization of the War Department, or any 

other Department, or the organization of the consular and diplomatic 

service the reorganization of which has been recommended by the Secretary ~f State. Subjects of this kind we should be enabled to bring 

forward under the privileges contempla.ted by myamendment, the obiect of which is t6 give precedence on these special subjects, and none other:s, to these several committees in order that these great branches 

of the public service shall not be subordinated to less important_questions, such as those of cla.ims, &c. I trust that the House will see fit to agree to this proposition as an amendment at least to that of the 

gentleman from Illinois [Ilfr. C.il.TNOY]; and when that shall have been 

done we shall be in better condition to determine whether these bills 

shall or shall not be distributed. 

Mr. CANNON. I will withdraw my amendment, and the gentleman 

from Georgia can offer his as a direct proposition. . Mr. BLOUNT. I offer the amendment of the gentleman from illinois coupled with the amendment whieh I ha>e sent to the desk. 

1\fr. SPRINGER. Let the proposition be read as it now stands. 

The SPEAKER. Does the gentleman .from Illinois withdraw his 

amendment. 

1\lr. CANNON. I do. 

1\Ir. BLOUNT. I renew it, modified by the addition of the proposition I have sent to the Clerk's d k. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Georgia moves to strike out 

in the report the words which the Clerk will read. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

As herein provided, viz: For.l egL~ati ve, cxecutiv:e, n:nd judicial ex_Penses; for 

sundry civil expenses; for fortificatiOns; for the DlBtnc of Columb1a.; for pen· sions; and for all deficiencies. 
316 CONGRESSIONAL RECQRD-HOUSE. DEOE:rtiBER l8, 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Georgia moves to strike out 

the words just read and to insert what the Clerk will now read. 

The Clerk read a.c:; follows: 

The Committee on Foreign Affairs shall have the same privileges in reporting and having considered bills in relation to the organization of the State De- partment and the consular and diplomatic service as are aecorded to the Committees on Appropriations and Ways and Means. The Committee on Military 

Affairs shall have like privileges as to bills relating to the organization of the 

War Department or the Army. The Committee on Naval Affairs shall have 

like privileges as to bills relating to the organization of the Navy Department and Navy and the addition of vessels to the same. The Post-Office Committee 

shall have like privileges as to bills relating to the organization of the Post- Office Department, transportation of the mails, and regulating rates of postage. The Committee on Indian Affairs shall have like privileges as to bills relating to the regulation of the Indian tribes. 

1\Ir. BLOUNT. 1\Ir. Speaker, I have reoffered the amendment of 

the gentleman from illinois (he having withdrawn it) because I was 

not willing that the House should be brought now to a direct vote on the proposition whether or not these bills should remain with the Committee on Appropriations. For one, I am not willing for them to re- main where they are unless something shall be done giving to other 

committees of this House the right to report important legislation instead of allowing all such legislation to remain practically under the 

control of the Committee on Appropriations as heretofore. 

Mr. HENLEY. 1\Ir. Speaker, I think it must be obvioHs to the 

House that the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Georgia 

[1\Ir. BT.OUNT] would be in·its effect almost entirely destructive of the 

value of the privilege which he proposes to confer upon these Tarious 

committees; .in other words, he proposes to give to so many different 

committees the privilege of reporting their bills at any time that the 

value of the privilege is very largely impaired. The amendment is, I 

.submit, at variance with the whole idea upon which this scheme of rules 

reported by the committee is predicated. It is conceded by the com- mittee that there is a certain character of legislation so important that 

it is necessary it should be enacted in preference to all other business, 

in order that the Government may be carried on; hence the Committee on Appropriations and a few other committees have been heretofore 

accorded the privilege of reporting at any time. Now, the gentleman 

from Georgia proposes to give this privilege to innumerable ot~ com- mittees-! do not know how many are enumerated in the amendment. 

Everybody can see the effect; Why, sir, one of the most convincing 

points made the other day by the gentleman from Indiana [b!r. HoLMAN] in his argument against the alteration of these rules was that 

this privilege as alieady extended was so large as to make it impossible in some cases to enact legislation of the utmost importance; and he 

instanced bills coming from the Committee on Public Lands. I hope, 

therefore, that this amendment will be defeated. _ Mr. BLOUNT. - I wish to say a word in reply to the gentleman from 

California [1\Ir. HENLEY]. He says that the extension of this privilege of reporting at any time, as proposed by me, would create infinite 

confusion. Why, sir, upon any of these reports when presented the 

question of consideration may be raised, and a majo:dty of the House 

may refuse _to consider them. I ask no more than that these com!Qit- . tees in relation to impoi:tant matters ·confided to their charge shall have 

the privilege of asking this House whether it will consider themwhether questions involving the organization of our diplomatic service, our Army, our Navy, and various important Departments of the Government shall have a hearing; that is all. 

Mr. HENLEY. Mr. Speaker, of course it is important that these 

committees should have a hearing; ,it is important that every com- mittee should have a hearing. The question to be determined in the 

wise discretion of this House is, Which of these committees should be 

specially privileged? The gentleman from Georgia proposes to give 

this privilege to so many committees that the value of the privilege 

would be annihilated. That is the difficuJty. • Mr. RYAN. 1\Ir. Speaker, the proposition submitted by the gentle- man from Georgia is the only one presented which provides for bringing 

legislation here to be submitted to the will of this House. All the clamor 

here has been to the effect that the majority should rule upon allquestions of legislation. The difficulty, it is claimed, has been that the 

majority could not rule, because the measures reported by its committees could not be brought before the House. The proposition of the 

gentleman from Georgia provides simply for bringing these important 

measru·es before the House and letting the majority of the House determine what action shall be had in regard to them. If this rule prevails 

there can never be any such criticism justly made as has been ma.de 

heretofore, that a majority of this body can not control its legislation. 

So far as the other proposition is concerned, namely, whether one or 

more appropriation committees shall be constituted by this body, personally I care nothing. I regard it, however, as most pernicious that 

yon divide the responsibility among several committees of the House 

to distribute the revenues of the country. I think, Mr. Speaker, .we shall ascertain by experience we have made a departure which we ought not to have made. The experience of our own Congress for 

nearly a hundred years, the experience of the legislative bodies of 

nearly every State in the Union, and the experienc~ of nearly all the 

civilized nations of the earth is against it. · Much has been said about the abuse of the power of the Committee 

on Appropriations. Why, sir, those supply bills must be passed in 

order that the Governmentmaymove along inits ordinary way. You 

can not bring forward one of those bills that you do not antagonize some other subject; the question is which shall be taken up, and the 

House has the power to determine whether it will consider the appropriation bill or some other subject. Usually the good judgment of 

the House prevails in favor of an appropriation bill because of the paramount necessity of passing it. And all this clamor a,bout the abuse of 

the power exercised by that committee is uncalled-for, to Sa.y the least. 

of it, and scarcely any foundation in truth to justify it. 

I was sorry to hear my friend from New York [Mr. HrscoCK] who was the able chairman of the Committee on Appropriations in the Fort-yseventh, Congress come in here and confess to the country that he had 

held the appropriation bills of that committee in his own hands to force 

certain legislation through that House. 

The fact is, Mr. Speaker, he is at fault in his memory. Every single 

solitary bill that he referred to, together with certain other measures, was regarded by the party·which he represented here on that committee as important legislation. It was their will.:._the will of the majority-that that committee should not antagonize that important legislation with any appropriation bill if it could possibly be avoided, 

and he simply obeyed the will of the majority. He tells us that he 

withheld these appropriation bills lmtil away in July that the tariffcommission bill might pass, together with the little intemal-revanue 

bill. Both of them had the right of way against any appropriation 

bill in this House. Besides, sir, the tariff-commission bill passed the 

House on the 6th day of May, and he could not have held these bills 

back away in July tole~ a bill Pfl.SS which ·had already passed the 6th 

day of the previous May. The other bill; the internal-revenue bill, 

was reported to this House as early as March, -more than four months 

before he reported his sundry civil appropriation bill, and that internal- revenue bill could have been passed at any time the committee in charge 

of it desired to bring it up if the House desired to pass it. 

Mr. CUTCHEON. Allow me to ask the gentleman from Kansas 

[Mr. RYAN] a question. 

Mr. RYAN, ofKansas. · Certainly. 

:Mr. CUTCHEON. Did ~he gentleman from New York, chairman 

of the Committee on Appropriations, hold the power in his hand to execute the wish of the caucus by holding those bills back? 

Mr. RYAN. He never had the power as against the majority of the 

House. I wish to say that any chairman of any appropriations committee who would come into this House and say to this House and to 

the country, "I will not bring in the appropriation bills-the supply 

bills to keep this Government running-until you pass some specific 

legislation,'' would so offend the House, would so offend propriety, 

would so offend the country that he would merit and would possibly 

receive a prompt and severe rebuke. · . It has always been in the power of the House to control its own matters. You do not propose to remedy any of these things of which you 

complain by any of the rules you have brought forward. You propose 

to clothe eight committees with the same power, with the same temptation and capacitytoabuse it. You multiply eightfold the nry evils of 

which you complain. 

[Here the hammer fell.] , Mr. IDSCOCK. Mr. Speaker, I mayreplybriefl.ytothese criticisms 

which have been made upon me by my old colleagues of the Appropriations Committee. It may be that I arrogated to myself too much 

whenlsaidididit. I am willing that should bemodifiedandchanged 

and m~de to read that the gentleman from illinois [Mr. CAID\OY] and 

the gentleman from Kansas [Mr. RYAN] most ably seconded me in 

doing it. [Laughter.] 

11Ir. RYAN. And, you might add, every Republican member of the 

House at tliat time. 

Mr. PETTIBONE. Put it that way-that the majority of the House 

seconded you. . . 1\Ir. HISCOCK. Put it, if you please, in that way, that the mnjority 

of the House aided me in doing it. I was backed by the Republican party 

in doing it. I admit that I was the organ of.the Republican p:~.rty in 

doing it. It was not done by my little hatchet alo11e. [Laughter.] 

What I was discussing the other day was this-what I was illustrating was the powerplacedinonecommittee, either, if yon please, through 

its chairman or any other accredited agent-illustrating its power for 

good or evil to control legislation and protract the session of the House. 

That was what I was intending to do, and I doubt if the country misunderstood me, and I doubt if any member on the floor misunderstood 

me. The question is not as to differences of opinion between members 

on the floor, but whether the power to coerce a minority, whether this 

vast power should be exercised anywhere by any committee. It was 

against that I was making my argument. 

Perhaps too often when we are placed in prominent positions whexe we are the organ of our party we assume great consequence to ourselves. 

But the fact that the Appropt·iations Committee has had great power 

and assumed t.o itself to control and regulate the action of the House was what I was intendingtoillustrateandagainstwhich I was making 

my argument. That is all I wish to say in reply to the remarks of the 

gentleman from lllinois and the gentleman from Kansas. 

• 
1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 317 

Now, that is all I wish to say in reference to the strictures of the 

gentleman, but I desire to add a single word now in reference to the particnlar proposition which has been presented by the gentlemen from 

Georgia and now pending. There is such a thing as making confusion 

;,vorse confounded on this floor. There is such a thing as putting it 

into the power of a minority to prevent action on the part of a major· 

ity. You can carry the rnle too far in your attempt to give a majority 

power. I say, then, if you adopt the amendment to the rnles proposed 

by the gentleman from Georgia its logical effect will be to enable a minority on this floor to constantly exhaust the time of the House by 

questions of consideration, by raising questions whether this bill or 

that or the other shall receive consideration first. Between these 

committees your whole time will be exhausted by questions of consid· 

eration. Now, we did not believe that it was right or that it wonld 

facilitate the public business to extend these committees. and their 

privileges with reference to the passage of appropriation bills. 

Bnt we have done this, we have put into the rules a provision for a morning hour for the consideration of business from committees, and 

have provided that if their business is not finished in that hour it goes 

upon the Calendar as unfinished business, and as unfinished business 

is entitled to consideration whenever you go to the Calendar appertaining to that particular class of business. I say to all gentlemen of the 

House that so far as any theory can be formulated in these rnles for 

facilitating the business of the House in my judgment you can not improve upon that which has been reported here by the majority of the 

Committee on Rn1es. 

Mr. ROGERS. Mr. Speaker, seated immediately in my front is the 

chairman of the Committee on the Public Lands of the last Congress, 

and I invite his attention particularly to what I am going to say. In 

response to the gentleman from Georgia, if I did not mistake his re- marks, he said that upon a question of consideration in the Forty-fifth 

Congress the Public Lands Committee had been voted down. I wish 

to state in response to that, upon the responsibility of my own recoltection as well as upon the recollection of one other member of the 

Committee on the Public Lands, that; that committee never was voted 

down in that Congress except by the .Appropriations Committee. · I do. not want the idea to go to the country that the Democratic party with ~0 majority on this floor had taken the position that it would consider 

other matters of legislation in preference to the forfeiture of unearned 

land grants. 

A word now in response to the gentleman from Georgia upon his 

amendment. These rnles, as reported by the committee, propose the 

zreation of five additional privileged committees. The amendment of 

my friend from Georgia contemplates the creation of five more committe~. It~ then, the proposition of my friend from Georgia shall be 

adopted, you simply increase the number of those committees to ten, 

with equal powers and right of way,· and all these committees are togo 

before the Committee on the Publi~ Lands. 

Sir, I hope the Democratic party in this House with its 40 majority will not embark in any legislation through amendments of the 

rules or otherwise which will degrade the Public Lands Committee; 

certa.inly not at least as long as the question of the forfeiture of the 

public lands is a live question before the people of this country. Bnt 

it has been said that this is another way by which you can elevate these 

committees which have in charge subjects of important legislation of 

which the gentleman from Georgia speaks. My opinion is, after some two years' experience on this floor, that the way to accomplish that purpose is to take all general legislation away from the .Appropriations 

Committee and force it upon the other committees on this floor, and 

then we can go to the Calendars, that ought in the transaction of our business here to be like the dockets of a court, and take up the busi- ness in regular order that may be upon them and dispose of it in ac- cordance with the views of the majority of the House. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Ur. BARKSDALE. ·Mr. Speaker, the pending paragraph is the 

.Aaron rod of all this controversy. I shall support the majority reportjustasitis, and trust that its friends will keep their lines unbroken 

and adopt it as it came from the committee. I submit, sir, that there 

has been an infinite amount of irrelevant discussion introduced into the 

consideration of the quMtion. Partisan politics, personalities, criminations and recriminations, all tending to inflame the passions and to pre- ,:ent judicial impartiality. It might well be asked, "What business 

have they here at such an hour as this?" 

Now, sir, the considerations that properly enter into the discussion 

of this question are these: Will the distribution of the powers of the 

Committee on .Appropriations tend to salutary, intelligent, and econom- ical legislation? Will it secure to this House its right for supremacy 

overlegislation which it is called upon to enact? Why, sir, to state the · propositions is to answer them. A committee appointed by the Speaker 

with reference to the aptitude and fitness of its members is presumed 

to be more competent to deal with the business of the department to 

which it pertains than any other committee. The physician who makes 

a diagnosis of a disease is more capable of prescribing for it than any 

amount of skill outside. 

Take the Committee on Naval .Affairs, for example . .As I have said, 

it is appointed by the Speaker with direct reference to the aptitude of 

its members for that branch of the service. And will you tell me they are less competent to deal with the affairs of the N a'Vy and to prescribe 

the amount that is needed to maintain it than any other committee, 

however a~le? And so with every other committee which has to deal 

with the affairs of the Government. · [Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. BARKSDALE. I should like to be allowed a few minutes more. Mr. RANDALL. I ask that the gentleman be permitted to continue his remarks for the time be has indicated. 

There was no objection. 

Mr. BARKSDALE. To devolve upon the Committee on Appropriations the duty of reporting every appropriation bill is to impose upon 

it a task which it is not capable of performing satisfactorily. The re- sult will be, as it has been heretofore, that bills will be reported at the 

close of the session, and members will be compelled to choose between 

the alternative of adopting items which they do not approve or of re- jecting the whole, and thtlSforcing an extra session with all its attendant 

burdens upon the Treasury. 

It has been well said that the House of Representatives is the great 

master body of the legisla.tive department of the Government. Its 

Representatives come directly from the people. There are no middle-: men between them and the real sovereigns of the land. The clause of 

the Constitution which devolves upon it the sole power of originating · revenue bills attests the high mission to which it was appointed by 

the venerated framers of that instrument. It is the business of the 

Ways and Means Committee to provide the necessary reve:ime. It is 

the business of the House to disburse it wisely and economically for the 

maintenance of the Government. To vest this power in a single com- mittee is to violate the true theory of the Government, and places upon 

the shoulders· of this House an Old Man of the Sea. to fetter its energies 

and obstruct it in the performance of its functions. I trust it will as- sert its rightful prerogative and throw off the incubus. 

Mr. MORRISON. I yield one minute to the gentleman from Georgia,. 

Mr. BLOUNT. If the gentleman does not yield me five minutes it 

is not worth while for me to take the floor. 

Mr. MORRISON. I will yield the gentleman from Georgia five 

minutes before demanding the previous question. 

Mr. BLOUNT. I will not take up time in discussing whether the 

Committee on Public Lands or the Committee on Appropriations occu- pied the most time during the last session. The Committee on Appropriations did not take more than one-sixth of the time of this House, 

and conceding that the Committee on Public Lands occupied more time, 

that committee reported important legislation1 and by rea....~n of the 

privilege given them passed important bills through the last House, 

and for doiilg so it claimed and deserved great credit. Bnt how were they able -to do so? By the very proposition I now offer. 

Mr. RYAN. It never was done before. 

Mr. BLOUNT. It never was done before till the Committee on Pub· 

lie Lands. g~t that privilege, and ~ did the country good service. I 

want to give other committees like powers, and I am ready if gentle- men in this House have important bills such as were presented in the 

last Congress-! am willing to give them an opportunity of having 

those bills considered. I wonld give this privilege so as to have the 

opportnnity of having some of those great measures considered here 

rather than we shonld be left as we have been in prior Congresses. You 

have tried heretofore the method of leaving important legislation to go on appropriation bills and the result has been that the other committees have no privileges. You have forced this legislation on the Committee on .Appropriations. They have taken jurisdiction because of 

the disposition of the House that they should exercise it, and the House 

has accepted the usurpation because it was in the line of their will. · Mr. BUTTERWORTH. May I ask the gentleman from Georgia a 

question? 

:Mr. BLOUNT. Yes, sir . ' 1\Ir. BUTTERWORTH. I do not understand you to intend by your 

amendment to double the number of privileged committees, but to ex- tend certain privileges to certain committees. 

Mr. BLOUNT. That is all I propose to do. 

1\Ir. HENLEY. Does not that double the number of privileged 

committees? 

1\-Ir. BUTTERWORTH. I understood the gentleman who preceded 

the gentleman from Georgia to intimate that this proposition looks to 

doubling the number of privileged committees. 

Mr. ROGERS. That is precisely what it does. 

Mr. BLOUNT. I do not like to have all these gentlemen answering 

for me. I will read my proposition that the House may see what it is: 

The Committee on Foreign Affairs shall have the same privileges in report... ing and having considered bills in relation to organi zing the State Department 

and the consular and diplomatic service as are a-ccorded to the Committees on .Appropriations and Ways and Means. 

And so with the other committees. I designate specifically what they 

can do. I do not undertake to define generally what they may do. I 

select certain important measures that they may report and have con- sidered by this House. And one of the reasons 1 have for inserting here 

the Committee on Foreign .Affairs was because the consular service has 
318 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- HOUSE. DEOEMBE~ 18, 

not been reorganized since the Forty-third Congress. The condition of 

the commercial relations with foreign countries is such that the Secretary of State has seen fit to make special recommendations with reference to the reorganization of the consular and diplomatic service, and 

I want-the Committee on Foreign Affairs to have the right tO come here 

and submit its propositions. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. MORRISON. I move the previous question. 

The previous question was ordered. 

The SPEAKER. The question is on agreeing to the amendment of 

the gentleman from Georgia [Ur. BLOUNT], which will be again re- ported. 

The amendment was again read. 

The question being taken on the amendment, it was not agreed to. 

Mr. HA1tDIOND. .I call up now the amendment of which I gave 

notice, and which is printed on page 298 of the RECORD. 

The Clerk read the proposed amendment, as follows: 

Amend Role xr, paragraph 3, by disagreeing to the proposed amfmd.ments and then adding thereto so as to make the paragraph read as follows: . '' 3. To appropriation of the revenue for the support of the Government : to the Committee on .Appropriations; but no general legislation shall be in order on any general appropriation bill nor as an amendment thereto; and no appropri- ation shall be reported in any general appropriation bill, or be in order as an amendment thereto, for any expenditures not previously authorized by law, unless in continuation of appropriations for such public works and objects as are already in progress." 

Mr. HISCOCK. At what point does the gentleman propose this 

amendment shall come in? 

The SPEAKER. In clause 3 of Rnle XI, the same clause already 

under consideration. The gentleman's amendment in the form in which 

it has been read proposes to disagree to the amendments of the com- mittee. It shonld really be to strike out those words and insert what 

has been read. 

Mr. HAM IOND. Yes, sir; that is the proper form. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Georgia [Mr. HAMMOND] is 

entitled to the floor upon his amendment. 

Mr. HAMMOND. Ur. Speaker, the objection made to this proposition when presented before was that it was then out of place; that it 

anticipated something which the committee had disposed of at another 

point. TheHousehasjust consented to 11ear argnmentand to vote upon a proposltion of my colleague [:Mr. BLOUNT] about the right of way of 

several committees, although that question is treated in lines 232 to 

243iuclnsi"reofthisreport, wenowbeinguponpage5. !take it, theretore, that the point as to this proposition not coming in at the right 

place will not now be urged. Having arrived at the Committee on Appropriations, we are now properly defining its jurisdiction. I therefore 

hope that those gentlemen who before urged no other objecJion to this 

proposition than that it was out of place will now recognize that it is 

offered in the right place and will vote for it. 

I wish to correct what I have been told was too broad a statement mad~ by me this morning when I said it was known that I was fighting this report. I stated distinctly when I made my first observations on this subject that I was not opposed to the report in any particular except the division of the Appropriations Committee. I did say 

that I wished to prevent ''riders '' on appropriation bills, but that I 

believed the report of the committee did not use apt words for that 

purpose. If yon will look at the report of the committee on page 11, 

Rule XXI, you will observe that the provision reported forbids no rider 

except riders making appropriations. It does not forbid general legislation on appropriation bills at all. Under this rnle as reported by the 

Committee on Rules you may on an appropriation bill organize a new 

court or change all the laws of the land, provided you make no appropriation therefor. Hence I have provided in the first clause of my 

amendment that there shall be no general legislation on any appropriation bill, either in the original report or by amendment thereto. I 

hope we shall now; have a test as to the sentiment of the Honse on the subject of riders on appropriation bills. 

Mr. HERBERT. I desire to call the attention of the gentleman 

from Georgia to the clause at the beginning of Rule XI: 

All the proposed legislation shall be referred to the committees named in the preceding rules, as follows. 

That language is very broad, and it wonld include legislation of the 

kincl to which the gentleman refers. I submit that the object of the 

gentleman's amendment is provided for in the report of the committee. 

Mr. HAMMOND. Let me explain. When a member proposes a 

bill it is referred to the committee having jurisdiction of the proposition; but the committee in reporting it may embrace in it any proposition they deem proper, unless there be a rule declaring they hall 

not do so. Mr. HERBERT. The language "all proposed legislation" is broad 

enough to cover any proposition, whether it comes by way of bill or by 

way of a proposed amendment. 

Mr. H.tUIAfO.ND. Then the report of the committee is utterly nuga- tory; for they have tried to make a restriction in this respect, although 

they have not gone far enough. 

Mr. HERBERT. They have by the words I have quoted . 

~Ir. HAUMOND.~ Why then put in the twenty-fu'St rule at all? 

[Here the hammer fell. J 

Mr. WARNER, of Ohio. I move to amend the amendment propo ed 

by the gentleman from Georgia by adding the words'' and for such con- tingent expenses as may be necessary for ca.rrying on the several De~ 

partments of the Government. 11 

This is a modification . of the phraseology of the amendment proposed to Rule XXI by the commit-tee. One word, Mr. peaker, re- specting the 'Proposition of the gentleman from Georgia, which I mo t 

heartily support. I believe in the principle involved in the amendment, which is that, first, we should take from the Appropriations 

Committee all power of legislation; and, secondly, we should keep 

from the legislative committees,the power of appropriation. The wi c practice oflegislative bodies for centuries has shown that appropriation 

and legislation do not properly go together. The correct principle is 

to keep them apart. A committee charged with the preparation of 

legislation is not a proper committee to determine upon appropriations required by such legislation. There is a principle involved here 

which I think it is not safe to depart from. I therefore most heartily 

support the proposition of the gentleman from Georgia, ·and simply 

offer this amendment because it seems to be agreed that the power 

must be left with the committee to report appropriations for contingencies not provided for by previous law. · 

Mr. SPRINGER. Mr. Speaker, I am opposed to the amendment 

of the gentleman from Ohio, from the fact that the words "for con- tingencies for carrying on the several Departments of the Government'' have had put upon them by previous constructjons and decisions in this Honse an interpretation which I think the Honse doe not 

want to carry into our new rules. I wish to call the attention of 

members to the proceedings of the House of Representatives of February 24, 1873, when General Butler, of 1\Iassachnsetts, offered that 

celebrated amendment known as the "salary grab." I desire the 

Clerk to read the decision of the chairman of the Committee of the 

Whole on a point of order raised upon that amendment. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

The CHAIRliAN'. The history of the last clause of the rule, "and for the contingencies for carrying on the several departments of the GoV"ernment," is this: Some twenty-five years ago, when the rule existed without that clau e, the chairman of the Committee of 'Vays and 1\Ieans offered an amendment in- creasing the compensation of custom-house officers. The point of order was raised that the amendment was not in conformity to existing laws, and that point of ordel' was sustained. The next day the chairman of the Committee of Ways and :Mean moved this additional clause as an amendment to the rule, and it was adopted by the House for the purpose of making it in order for him to move to incren.se the compensation of officer of cnstorns. From that day till the present se ion of Congress the ruling under that rule has been uniform. Some seven year ago, while the present occupant. of the chair happened to be in it in the Committee of the 'Vl1ole, the gentleman from Indiaua [1\Ir. HoL- MAN] raised the arne point of oraer; and this same l.Ji tory of the rule was pre- sented to the committee. The decision of the Chair at that time, corre ponding 

with that which he now makes, was su tained by the omruittce of the 'Vhole. The Chait· is aware that upon two oecasions during the pre!Oeot ses ion the Committee ofthe Whole have overruled the Chair in mnkinglhisdec! ion. ince that, however, the Committee ofthe \Vhole ha sustained the Chair in tl.Je same decision. The Chair has no doubt whatever that it is inconformity to the rules of the House. Therefore, so far as this amendment provide for increasing offi- cial compensation or salaries now fixed by Jaw, the Chair rules it in order. From that decision the gentleman from Indiana [1\lr. HoLMAN] appeals. Mr. BEATTY: I move that t-he committee rise. The motion wa not agreed to; there being ayes33, noes not counted. :Mr. 'VILLARD : I desire to inquire of the Chair whether hi~t rnling goes to the extent of affirming that a salary may be permanently increased by a pro- vision of law. I supposed the ruling only went to this extent: that an appro- priation for paying a salary for the next fiscal year could be increased. The CHA.RIMAN: The Chair rnles it is in order to fix an increase of salary; but he does not rule that it will not be within the power of Congress to diminish it. 

[Laughter]. Shall this decision of the Chair stand as the judgment of the com- mittee? · The question being taken, it was decided in the affirmative-yeas 92, nays 29. So the decision of the Chair was sustained. 

Ur. HOLUAN. I move to add to the proposition as it now stand 

the following--

The SPEAKER. There is an amendment pending and an amendment to that amendment, and one must be disposed of before another 

can be received. The question recurred on the amendment of the gentleman from 

Ohio [1\lr. WARNER] to the amendment of the gentleman from Georgia 

[Mr. ILurnoND ]. • 

Mr. ADAMS, of illinois. I desire to oppose the amendment, and it 

is simply for the purpose of informing the House of the exact question as it is in my mind now before the Honse. If I undet'Stand the proposition of the gentleman from Georgia it is to exclude the power of legislation on appropriation bills, and thereupon to include all appropri.a.-

tion bills in one committee. 

Mr. HAMMOND. No; Idonot. My realdesireistoleavetheappropriation bills where they are. 

The SPEAKER. That is what the amendment does. 

Mr. ADA1\fS, of Illinois. That is my meaning. 

Mr. HAMMOND. There are two propositions in mine. One is to 

strike out and one is to insert. 

1t1r. ADAUS, of illinois. I understand the gentleman from Georgia 

does not accept the theory of the dispersion of the appr.opriation bills, 

but that he couples with his motion that there shall be no dispersion 1 

proposition that there shall be no legislation on appropriation bil.,. 1 
; 

1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- HOUSE. 319 

agree that questions shall be made clear, and I have already sent in last 

night an amendment which I suppose will be considered when that 

part of the rules shall be reached. I believe a majority of the Honse 

is in :t:wor of the distribution of the appropriation bills for reasons independent of considerations arising from riders on appropriation bills; 

but I also believe if the appropriations shall be distributed still a large 

majority of this House is in favor of any proposition keeping off legislation on appropriation bills; and therefore when we cometothatpart 

of the rules, even if appropriations shall be distributed, I shall then 

offer my amendment to cut off legislation from appropriation bills. 

Mr. 'V .ARNER, of Ohio. I withdraw my amendmenb for the present. 

1\Ir. HOLMAN. I offer the following amendment: 

The Clerk read as follows: 

Nor shall any provision changing existing law be in order on any general appropriation bill or be received as an mnend.ment thereto, but provisions or amend- ments for the direct reduction of the number, salary, or compensation of officers 

and employes of the United States shall be in order on a general appropriation 

bill if germane to the subject-matter of the bill. .. 

Mr. HOLMAN. I wish to say a word on that amendment. I think 

this subject is well understood by the Honse. I think the Honse is 

not inclined to favor legislation on appropriation bills, jtldging from the 

expressions of this amendment. The gentleman from Georgia [Mr. 

:HiliMOND] has certainly guarded these bills from general legislation 

with great care. I trust the Honse will not object to the question of 

preventing some degree of retrenchment in the one possiQle form in 

which it can come before this House. I take it if you reduce offices 

and salaries it would be done on appropriation bills. I am willing to 

confine general legislation, so that I trust gentlemen around m.e will 

not misapprehend the fact that so far as any reform in the Government 

is to be brought about it must be brought about in this way. 

Ml'. MORRISON. Rule XI, under consideration, is the rule relating 

to the powers and duties of committees. .Ai3 this report is presented the 

clause under consideration involves the question whether appropriation 

bills are to be distributed. So much of the clause as relates to the extent or manner of distribution has been read and is well understood. The 

proposition of the gentleman from Georgia, with the amendment proposed to it, couples together what in the report is kept apart-that is, 

the question of what committee shall have jurisdiction of appropriation 

bills and the question as tow hether such committee shall not only have 

the power to appropriate money but also to incorporate new legislation 

into bills making appropriations required by law. In this report of the 

Committee on Rules these are presented as separate questions. One 

propo ition is presented in Rule XI, and provides for the distribution of 

appropriation bills, and the other in Rule XXI, relating to or preventing legislation on appropriation bills. 

The effect and purpose of the proposition of the gentleman from 

Georgia is to couple them all together, with the view of weakening (at 

least that is the purpose) the .proposition to divide the appropriation 

bills. I trust it will be voted down, and that the appropriation bills 

will be distributed when we come to Rule XXI, in which this question 

is provided for in the old rules, and we will then decide whether we are to have new legislation on appropriation bills, and if so what it is, 

what its nature and character shall be. 

l\Ir. UcKINLEY. I rise to favor the amendment of the gentleman 

fmm Georgia [1\Ir. H.Al\lliOND] and to oppose the amendment of the 

gentleman frill Indiana [Mr. HOLMAN]. In this proposition, 1\Ir. 

Speaker, is involved the whole question, and the real fight might just as well be had here as when we reach Rule XXI. In my judgment 

the chief trouble has been with the power of the Appropriations Committee to pass general legislation as riders upon their bills; and the im- mense power that that committee has had in this Honse is not acquired 

from the fact that they have twelve appropriation bills committed to 

their charge or five or ten appropriation bills committed to their charge, 

but comes from the fact that they can legislate upon their money bills, 

bills which are necessary for the running of the Government and without which the Government can not proceed; that they use these bills, 

the passage of which is indispensable to the conduct of public business, as a. vehicle for general legislation. 

Now, I think if yon deprive the Committee on Appropriations of the- power to legislate for this Honse by riders much of the evil complained 

of will be removed and we will have orderly procedure and promote 

the legislation of the country. The reason of the great importance of 

toot committee in the past has been because every member of this 

House and every other committee of this Honse if they desire any legislation for the good of the country or for their constituents were driven 

to the Appropriations Committee as the only practical way to secure for 

their measures consideration and action. They were compelled to go 

to that committee and beg their favor beeanse there was no way to appeal to the deliberate judgment of the Honse, and it is because that 

committee has had the power to legislate, not because it has the power 

to lning in all or a part of the appropriation bills, that has given them 

such weight and authority and tyranny in this Honse, preventing other 

com.rilittees from securing the consideration of the Honse upon impor .. 

tant public measures committed to their charge. If yon give to the 

Committee on Naval Affairs the right to come in here and propose all 

original legislation touching the Navy, the right to the Post-Office Committee to do the same covering post-office matters, the right to the 

l\Iilitary Committee to bring in a bill concerning the military establishment or any changes thereto, and prevent the Appropriations Committee from proposing any new or original legislation-! say if yon do 

that, then each of these committees will be restored to its proper dignity 

and its legitimate sphere. · 

l\Ir. MILLIKEN. Let me ask the gentleman, if that is done, what 

will be the status :md dignity and power of the other committees? 

Ur. l\IcKINLEY. We ha>e not been troubled at all in the past by 

them. 

l\Ir. MILLIKEN. No, and they will not have power to trouble the 

Honse in the future if this is adopted. 

Mr. McKINLEY. We have now many committees that never have 

disturbed and never will disturb the Honse, and it is not proposed by 

this revision to give them any new power or clothe them with additional jurisdiction. · Mr. MII.I.IKEN. I hope they will not all be put in chancery on ·account of their modesty. · · 

l\Ir. McKINLEY. Yon hope they will not be put in chancery on ac- count of their modesty! So do I. Why, if anything is referred to your 

committee, bring it in and change the rules of the House so as to ha>e 

consideration for it; and I. say that if yon take from the Committee on Appropriations the power to legislate, then every committee having con- trol of subjects-matter of legislation great or small submitted to them 

will be able to have a. hearing in this Honse. To my mind that is the 

real objection and the most serious objection to our present rules. 

Speaking from a minority standpoint, I do not care, Mr. Speaker, how soon the present majority of this Honse shall change the rules or how soon it shall distribute the power of appropriation among the com- mittees of the Honse, but they shall never have my vote to distribute 

them unless such distribution is necessary to rid us of what I regard as the most pernicious system in our code of rules to-day, the power 

to legislate upon appropriation bills. • I do not sympathize 'vith the 

sentiment so prevalent in certain quarters, notably among ome of my own party friends, that because we are in the minority and the Demo- cratic party are in the majority, that it is good policy for us, good policy 

for the Republicans, to help the majority to enact rules which everybody admits will lead to extravagance. 

M:r.l\IORRISON. Oh, ne1. Nobody admits it. 

Mr. 1\IcKINLEY. Nobody admits it? Why, it is admilted all over the Honse. The distinguished leader on your side of the House, 

the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. RANDALL], admits it. 1\Ir. REED, of Maine. Ob! be would admit it. 

Mr.l\IcKINLEY. The gentleman from Pennsylvania, who for twen l;y 

years has occupied a conspicuous place on this floor, who bas stood-in 

the very forefront of Democracy, who knows his party and his party 

friends better than any other man in this country, who kno-ws their 

tendencies and their purposes, comes here and appea.ls to ns, the minority side of the Honse, to put on the brakes and help to keep his party 

friends out of the Treasury. [Laughter.] • The gentleman from Pennsylvania said the other day, and he said it 

feelingly, as an appeal to this sideoftheHonse, ''Help! save them from 

themselves!" 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

l\Ir. LONG took the floor, and by consent yielded his time to Mr. 

:MCKINLEY. 

l\Ir. l\IcKINLEY. Mr. Speaker, I can not resist that feeling appeal. 

I can not resist it coming as it does from such a source, for, I repeat, if 

there is a man in this country to-day who knows the desires and purposes of the Democratic party it is the gentleman from Pennsylvania 

[1\Ir. Ril""DALL], for he bas been with them and of them, and when he 

says all this means extravagance I must believe him. 

1\Ir. BINGHAM. He was with us in the last Congress. 

Mr. McKINLEY. Yes, and we were glad tobavehim with ns. We were glad to have him help defeat the Morrison tariff bill. Is that the reason that gentlemen occupy the position they do on this side of the 

Honse? Is that to be the meaning of this vote? If it is, then let us vote down this proposition to distribute the bills; and I say to this side 

of the Honse if it is to punish the gentleman from Pennsylvania be- cause he helped ns defeat that bill it is hardly a sound reason. Mr. BINGHAM. Oh, no; that is not the reason. Mr. McKINLEY. I say if that is the reason, that he helped us to 

defeat that bill which would have destroyed the indnstriesofthiscoun- try, then I ask what is the position of the gentleman and those who are in Mcord with him? 

l\lr. BINGH;Al\I. Our position is Judge KELLEY's :vosition, and not 

that of his colleague [Mr. RANDALL]. 

Mr. :McKINLEY. Judge KELLEY can speak for himself. 

l\Ir. BINGHAM. He bas done so. :Mr. UcKINLEY. We recognize him as our leader on the question 

of protection, one whom I have always gladly followed. But the gentleman shall not lead me away from the legitimate discussion of this 

question. 

.Ai3 I was saying a moment ago, the gentleman from Georgia, a gentleman in whom I have the hlghest confidence, who is always conserva- tive and always conscientious, told us the other day that his party, now in the ascendant in the country, was on trial; that they had been kept 
320 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. DECEMBEB 18, 

from the knowledge of Governmental affairs and that they were neces- sarily green. And then he said he was afraid to try this experiment. 

I tell you it is wise, it is good statesmanship to help the gentlemen on that side to keep up the barriers, from the start. That is the part of a wise minority, to preserve the dam at the head of the stream lest you 

may not be able to erect it at the foot. 

Mr. REED, of Maine (in his seat). Dam them altogether. [Laughter.] 

Mr. McKINLEY. My friend from Maine says "dam them altogether." I repeat his remark, so as to give him the benefit of it in the 

RECORD. [Laughter.] He has been trying to do that for six or eight 

years in the House but has not succeeded. The party still comes up 

smiling. [Applause.] My fellow-citizens [laughter]-! beg pardon, 

I thought from the applause I must be addressing my fellow-citizens. 

"But, Mr. Speaker, there is another thing I want to say in this connection. 

If the committee in the past having h;1d charge of all these appro· 

pria.tion bills have acted as a check upon jobbery and upon wa.Ste and 

upon extravagant public expen<litures, and all admit it has, in God's name we need that check now when the Democratic party has taken 

control of this Government. If we ever needed it we need it now against the wild projects and visionary schemes which will find advocates in this House. And especially do we need it, Mr. Speaker, in 

view of the fact that the first official message of the President of the 

United States announces to this House and to the country the astonndingfact that the estimated revenues of the next :fiscal yea.r are$24,000, 000 . short of the estimated expenditures for that year. The Lord knows, 

if economy was needed in the past it is needed now with a threatened 

deficit . . Our surplus that we left you will disappear. We can not save that, but we can do our utmost to prevent a large deficit. (Applause]. 

l Here the hammer fell] 

Mr. HilillOND. I desire to make a parliamentary inquiry. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman will state it. 

Mr. HAMMOND. The form in which I drew the amendment in 

the printed proposition is to <lisagree to the proposed amendment of 

the committee and to add after that certain words. The Speaker suggested that the proposition should be to strike out and insert. I desire to ascertain whether after a proposition to strike out and insert, 

which is indivisible, shall be voted upon · it will then be i:::l order to 

strike out the words supplied by the report of the committee. 

The SPEAKER. It will. The proposition now is to strike out cer- tain words and add certain other words. The proposition merely to 

strike out would be a different proposition. 

Mr. HAMMOND. I will ask a further question. To get a direct 

vote without coupling the two things together, may I not modify my 

suggested amendment at this time by an amendment merely to strike 

out, stating it is my purpose to follow that with the other proposition? 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman can do that if the gentleman from 

Indiana [Ur. HoLMAN] will also withdraw his amendment for the 

present. 

Mr. HOLMAN. I will do so. Mr. HAMMOND. Then I move to strike out the words supplied by 

the committee. 

Mr. RANDALL. Let us hear that read. This, as I understand, 

presents the real test. . The Clerk rea.d the proposed amendment, as follows: 

Strike out the words: •• As herein provided, viz: for legislative, executive, and judicial expenses; for sundry civil expenses; for fortifications; for the District of Columbia.; for 

pensions; and for all deficiencies." 

So that it will read : "3. To appropriation of the revenue for the support of the Government: to the 

Committee on Appropriations." 

Mr. HAMMOND. This will leave the committees precisely a.s they 

are, the Committee on Rivers and Harbors having their bill, the Committee on Agriculture having their bill, and the Committee on .Appropriations all the others. 

Mr. RANDALL. I wish to make a suggestion to the gentleman 

from Georgia. Toaccomplishwhathehas stated, and which I consider 

the real test, he had better retain these words, ''except as hereinafter 

provided.' t 

Mr. HAMMOND. I have no objection to that; but that gets us 

again into the trouble of striking out and inser~g, which is an indivisible motion. 

Mr. MORRISON. Th~ amendment as now offered presents the 

question of the division of the appropriations, which is really the living 

question. . Mr. RANDALL. I think we had better have the yeas and nays. 

The question being taken on ordering the yeas and nays, there wereayes 55. 

The SPEAKER. There having been no previous vote, the Chair is 

unable to determine whether the affinnative is sufficient to order the 

yeas and nays. Those opposed to ordering the yeas and nays will rise. 

[After beginning to eount the negative vote.] Evidently more than one- fifth have voted in the affirmative, and the yeas and nays are ordered. 

Mr. ANDERSON, of Kansas. Will the Chair state the question? 

The SPEAKER. The amendment is to strike out that part of the 

report which provides for the distribution of the appropriations. 

Mr. REED, of Maine. Those in favor of the <listribution will vote 

"no." 

The SP~R. The proposition will be again read. 

The amendment was again read. · Mr. HOLMAN. I rise to a question of order. 

Mr. HATCH. I demand the regular order. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Inman a rises to ask a question. 

Mr. HOLMAN. Is it proposed to strike out the words "as herein 

provided?" I suggest that they ought not to be stricken out. 

Mr. HAJ.UIOND. The words proposed to be stricken out are the 

designation of particular bills. 

Mr. MORRISON. The effect of which will be to leave all the appropriation bills with the Appropriations Committee. 

Mr. HAMMOND. Except the river .and harbor bill and the bill 

making appropriations for the Agricultural Department. . 

Mr. HOLMAN. I ask that the proposition may be again read. 

The Clerk again read the proposed amendment. 

The question was taken; and it was decided in the negative, there 

being-yeas 70, nays 227, not voting 27; as follows: 

.. YEAS-70. 

Atkinson, Foran, Little, 

Bennett, Forney, Long, 

Buchanan, Funston, Mahoney, 

Burnes, Green,R.S. Martin, 

Butterworth, Hall, McAdoo, 

Campbell, Felix Hammond, McKinley, Candler, Harmer, McMillin, 

Cannon, Harris. Merriman, 

Caswell, HemJ!hill, Morrill, 

Clements, Hen erson,J.S. Neal, 

Cobb, Herbert, Payson, 

Compton, Hires, Perry, 

Cowles, Holman, Phelps, 

Dargan, Hopkins, Pidcock, 

Ely, Jack on, Piudar, 

Ermentrout, Ket<'ham, Randall, 

Everhart, La Follette, Reid,.J.W. 

Fleeger, Lehlbach, Richardson, 

NAY8-227. 

Adams, G. E. Dunham, Landes, 

Adnms0.J . .J. Dunn, . Lanham, 

Allen, .H. Eden, Lawler, 

Allen,J.M. Eldredge, Libbey, 

Anderson, C. M. Ells berry, Lindsley, 

Anderson, .J. A. Evans, Lore, 

Baker, Farquhar, Loutitt, 

Ballentine, Felton, Lovering, 

Barbour, Findlay, . Lowry, 

Barksdale, Fisher, Lyman, 

Barnes, Ford, Markham, 

Barry, Frederick, 1\fatson, 

Bayne, Fuller, Maybury, 

Beach, Gallinger, McComas, 

Belmont, Gay, Mc2eary, Bingham, Geddes, 1\Ic enna., Blanchard, Gibson, C. H. McRea, 

Bland, Gib on, Eustace Millard, 

Bli Gilfillan, 1\liller, Blou~t, Glass, Milliken, 

Bound, Glover, Mills, 

Boutelle, Goff, Mitchell, 

Brady, Green,W.J. Moffatt, 1 

Bragg, Grosvenor, ]\forgan, 

Brecldnridge, C. R. Grout, 1\Iorrison, 

Breckiuridge,WCP.Guenther, 1\Iorrow, 

Browne, T. M. Hahn, Murphy, 

Brown, C. E. Hale, Neece, 

Brown, W. W. Halsell, Negley, 

Buck, Hanback, Nelson, 

Bunnell, Hatch, Norwood, 

Burrows, Hayden, Oates, 

Bynum, Haynes, O'Donnell, 

Cabell, Heard, O'FerraJJ, 

Caldwel1 Henderson,D.B. O'Hara, 

Campbeli,.J.M. Henderson, T.J. O'Nem, Charles 

Campbell, .J. E. Henley, O'NeilJ, .J . .J. 

Carleton, Hepburn, Osborne, 

Clardy, Herman, Outhwaite, 

Cole, Hewitt, Owen, 

Collins, Hiestand, Parker, 

Com tock, Hill, Payne, . Conger, Hiscock, Peel, 

Cooper, Holmes, Perkins, 

Crain, Houk, Peters, 

Croxton, Howard, Pettibone, 

Culberson, Hutton, Pirceb 

Curtin, Irion, Plum, 

Cutcheon, .James, Price, 

Davidson, A. C. .Johnson, F. A. Ranney, 

Davidson, R. H. M • .Johnston, .J. T. Reagan, 

Davis, .Jones,.J.H. R-eed,T.B. 

Dibble, .Jones,.J. T. Reese, 

Dockery, King, Riggs, 

Dorsey, Kleiner, Robertson, 

Dougherty, Laffoon, Rockwell, 

Dowdney, Laird, Rogers, 

ABSENT-27. 

Aiken, Cox, .Johnston, T. D. 

Arnot, Cris.p, Kelley, Boyle, Dan1eJ, Le Fevre, Brumm Davenport, Muller, 

Burleigh, Dawson, Pulitzer, 

Campbell, T .. J. Dingley, Rankin, 

Catchings, Hiit, Rice, 

Romeis, 

Ryan, 

Scott, 

Shaw, 

Skiuner, 

Sowden, 

Spriggs, 

Storm, 

Strait, 

Swope, 

Taylor, I. H. 

Taylor,J.M. 

Turner, 

Wadsworth, 

Warner,A . .J. 

White, A. C. 

Rowell, 

Sadler, 

Sawyer, . Sayers, 

Scranton, 

Seney,. 

Singleton, 

Smalls, 

Snyder, 

Spooner, 

Springer, 

Stablnecker, 

Steele, 

Stephenson, 

Stewart, Charles 

St. Martin, 

Stone, W . .J.,Ky. Stone, ,V . .J., Mo. 

Struble, 

Swinburne, 

Tarsney, 

Taulbee, 

Taylor, E. B. 

Taylor, Zach. 

Thomas, .J. R. 

Thamas, o. B. 

Thompson, 

Threckmortoo, 

Till.man, 

Townshend, 

Trigg, 

Tucker, 

VanEaton, 

VanSchaick, 

Viele, 

Wade, 

Wait, 

Wakefield, . Ward,J.H. 

Ward,T.B. 

Warner, William 

'Veo.ver,A . .J. 

Weaver,J.B • Weber, 

Wellborn, 

West, 

Wheeler, 

White, 1\lilo 

Whiting, 

Wilkins, 

·willis, 

Wilson, 

Winans, 

Wise, 

Wolford, 

Worthington. 

Se sions, 

Seymour, 

Stewart, .J. W; 

Stone, E. F. 

Symes, 

Woodburn. 

So the amendment of Mr. HAMMOND was not agreed to. 
I 

.. 

. 188b. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE . 321 

During the roll-call the following announcements were made: 

Ur. VIELE. I desire to announce that my colleagtie, Mr. MULLER, . is detained from the House by sickness. 

l\Ir. GEDDES. My colleague, Mr. LEFEVRE, is unavoidably absent 

attending the funeral of a friend. He wished me to &'ly that if present 

he would vote "no" on this proposition. 

Mr. ADAMS, of New York. My colleague, Mr • .A..lli~oT, is sick and 

unable to be here. If present, he would vote "no." 

The following pairs were announced: 

Mr. BoYLE with Mr. DINGLEY, on all political questions, :md on this 

question until T.uesday next. 

Mr. STEWART, of Vermont, with Mr. CRISP, on the question of the 

wstribntion oftheappropriation bills as recommended bytbeCammittee on Rules. Mr. STEWART would vote in the affirmative :md Mr. 

CRISP in the negative. 

Mr. Hrr.r with Mr. PULITZER, on all political . questions until December 22; also on Mr. MORRISON's report to amend the rules. Mr. HITT would vote for the report·; Mr. PULITZER against it. 

1\lr. BURLEIGH·with Mr. STONE, of Mnssachusetts, on questions of 

:_:lmendment to the rules reported by the Committee. Mr. BU:RLEIGH 

would vote for the report; M.r. STO.NE.against it. 

Mr. CRISP. By the announcement of the pairs I observe that I am paired with the gentlemanfrom.Vermont [Mr. STEWART], and I thereJore withdraw my vote. But the statement read from the Clerk's desk as to our respective votes is not wha,t it was designed tO be. The form 

of this vote is perhaps different from that anticipated by the gentleman 

from Vermont. He would vote '' ay '' upon the ··proposition to adopt 

the report of the Committee on Rules and I would vote ''no.'' Therefore on the votejl'tst taken his vote would have.. been ." . .no," and mine, were I permitted to vote, would be "ay." ' 

The result of the -vote was announced as above stated. 

1Ir. HAMMOND. I now ask a vote upon the· amendment proposed 

by mo as printed on page 298 of the RECORD. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

A~d to clause 3 these words: "But no general legislation sho.ll be in order on an:Y genera19.ppropriation bill nor as an amendment thereto; and no appropriation shall be reported in any general appropriation bill, or be in order as an amendment thereto, for any ex- penditures not previously authorized by law, unless in continuation of appro- priations for such public works and objects as are already in progress." 

Mr. IIIBCOCK. It seems to me we had better vote on this amendment when we reach that point in the report of the committee to which 

it i::; applicable. 

Mr. HAMMOND. Very we1l. I have now no reason for pressing 

it at at this point. I desired a vote on the other proposition. I withdraw the amendment for the present. 

Mr. HOUK. I move to amend by striking out in the paragraph un- der consideration the words "for pensions." I offer this amendment 

with the view of submitting, when we reach clause 27, a proposition 

to give to the Committee on Invalid Pensions the right to report the 

pension appropriation bill. It strikes me thatno committee can be so weB prepared to perfect and report the appropriation bill on this subjec;:t as the committee that.has gone through and wgested all the legislation requiring such appropriation to be made. 

This committee (and I will say, byway of parenthesis, the vote just 

taken clearly indicates it is tl:\e will of the House of Representatives to 

distribute the labor of this body and give to each committee all that comes within its proper sphere)-this Committee on Invalid Pensions 

bas proved itself, I think, unqer the Circumstances in the past a very 

careful committee. It enters upon no legislation :md enacts no law 

until after it bas examined into all its bearings and ascertains precisely 

what amount it will draw from the Treasury-how much money it 

will take to carry that law into execution. Bat it does seem to me if 

it is proper, and the Honse has just voted that it is, for the Military 

Committee to make up the appropriation bill for the ·war Department 

and the Post-Office Committee the bill for the Post-Office Department, 

that it is pre-eminently right for that committee, which has gone down 

into the ground work of every enactment involving the question 'of invalitl pensions, to make up the bill ne~sary to carry out the provisions which it has enacted or been instrumental in bringing before this 

House to be enacted by, as I conceive, having more knowledge than it 

is possible for the .Appropriations Committee to acquire after the legislation has first been effected. They have to retrace-go over and look 

into every question which has been examined by the committee perfecting legislation on that subject. I will sa.y that I make this speech 

gratuitously and mako this motion in .tbe same way, because I do not 

want or intend to be on that committee. [Laughter.] · Mr. MATSON. Mr. Speaker, there is n. great deal of force in the 

proposi lion tbn.t ilie pension bill stands by itself. 'Illiat observation was made by the gentlem:mfromPennsylvaniaor by my colleague from ~nlliana, and therefore it very properly may be takeu from the Committee on .Appropriations, rather than some others which are to be taken 

from that committee. But there is more force in the proposition that 

the Committee on Invalid Pensions has already more than it can possibly do. It is certainly the observation of this IIouse that that com- mittee, which had more than one-thir~ or nearly one-third of the bills 

XVII--31 

which were introduced into the last Congress, bas as much a.S it can possibly do. • · Besides that, tho matter of appropriation bills-is something. which will 

suffer in the bands of one committee in this House, because the pasts bows 

that every single dollar which has been asked by the Commissioner 

of Pensions has been given by every Congress. So that there is no question about it. Besides that, with the overwhelming sentiment in the 

House in favor of doing away with general legislation on appropriation 

bills, there will be little to which the Invalid Pensions can ingraft in 

the way of legislation on appropriation bills. It would be of no value 

to pensioners, and therefore I think the motion of the gentleman from 

Tennessee, a. former colleague on the Committee of Pensions, ought not 

to prevail. 

The question was taken, and Mr. HoUK'samendmentwasdisagreed to. 

Mr. BROWNE, of Indiana. I desire to offer an amendment in the 

interest of economy. After the word ''pensions,'' in line 108, add the 

words ''the improvement of rivers and harbors.'' 

l\fr. Speaker, the object of this amendment is apparent, I think, to 

every gentleman in thi-; House. I first desire by the amendment to 

place river and harbor appropriations among the general appropriation 

bills. The result will be that committee will not have the-power to 

propose general legislation. It can not therefore, by a mere ruling of 

the Speaker, propose to turn dry land into a water way, and then appropriate money for its construction. In other words, in order that I may 

crystallize the point, I would not permit the Committee on Rivers and 

Harbors. or any other committee of the House, to appropriate money for 

the cons.truction of the Hennepin Canal until therepresentatives oftbe 

people determined that a Hennepin Canal should be made. I·would 

remit the appropriations for the improvement of rivers and harbors to 

the condition of our public buildings bill. \\r e do not allow the Committee on Public Buildings and Grounds to bring in a measure'for the .construction of a hundred independent public buildings and in the same measure propose to appropriate in a lump for them all. There is 

as much intimate relation between the Federal court-house in the city 

of Pittsburgh and the City Hall in the· city of Washington as between 

the improvements of the Missouri River and the improvements in New 

York Harbor. If we desire to escape the enormous appropriations which 

have at times been proposed by the Committee on Rivers and Harbors 

and adopted by this House we will have to adopt some measure by 

which the Congress of the United States will re.solve that the work 

shall be done before there shall be an appropriation made for its com- pletion. 

I remember when it was proposed to create the River and Harbor 

Commmission and send itoutforthepurposeofasceitaining what with 

propriety might be done toward the improvement of the Mississippi 

River and to propose to the C9ngressofthe United States the plans upon 

which it might be done, I sa.id then that the work of that commission, 

its propositions, its plans, the -methodsof its improvement, would never be submitted to the Congress ·of the United States to be adopted or re- pudiated by it. What is the result? They proposed to confine the 

waters of the Mississippi River within bounds by wire screens and willow branches and incorporated the proposition.on an appropriation bill, 

and they have since that time proceeded year after year to squander 

millions of the people's money in an underlalPng which has resulted 

in no permanent good to the commerce of the Mississippi River. 

Give these to the .Appropriations Committee; provide by the rules .that 

that committee, as the House will provide, shall not have the power of 

general legislation, and put your river and harbor bill beside your public 

buildings, and before the Congress of the United States are called upon 

to pass an appropriation for the improvement of New York Harbor let it 

first resolve that it shall be according to plans and specifications that 

shall be sub~tted to it by the proper engineer department of the Government or a proper committee which may be organized for that purpose :md from which it may receive a report. 

The question being taken on the adoption of the amendment proposed by Mr. BROWNE, of Indiana., it was rejected. 

Mr. BROWNE, of. Indiana. I am astonished that there are so few 

economists in the House. How did my friend from the fourth district 

of In ill ana vote? [Laughter.] 

Mr. SPRINGER. I desire to move an amendment to this clause, to 

strike out the words "and provide for deficiencies." I do not understand why the Committee on Rules should have given all deficiency 

bills to the principal Committee on .Appropriations while the appropriations for the respective Departments are in subsequent provisions re- ferred to separate committees. It seems to me that every committee 

should keep up its oWn. deficiencies. 

Now, the Committee on Military .Affairs is, by a subsequent clause, 

which I think will be adopted by the Honse, as indicated by the last 

vote, given power to report appropriations for the support of the military arm of the Government, and if that committee should fail to sup· 

ply enough funds for that purpose then the Committee on .A.ppropria· 

tions is to take jurisdiction of the whole subject in order to know why 

the Committee on Military Affairs failed to supply a sufficient amount 

of money to run that branchofthesubject. They must ascertain wherein · that committee bas failed to appropriate in whole or in part; it mnst 
322 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. DECEl\illER 18, 

look over the whole work ofalloftheother committees and see whether 

they have left out something thab ought not to have been left out or put in something that ought not to have gone into the bill. I do not see 

mur.b impro>ement in the work of the Committee on .Appropriation . M:y object in a revision of these rules was to relieve that committee 

from the burdens which had been imposed upon it. But this provision 

iti this report 'requires them to go still further, and go over the work of 

these other committees and see whether deficiencies· coming up from 

time to time are properly deficiencies or not. I do not see why we should make this committee do that work. 

It seems to me it would be much more in accordance wilh the eternal fitness of things, if not in accordance with the report of this committee, if the deficiencies of every committee should be provided· for by a report of tbe committee itself. 

:M:r. CANNON. 1\Ir. Spea,ker, I rise to oppose the amendment of my 

colleague. I accept the significance of the vote which has been lately 

taken, not becau e I want to but beranse I have to. I still am of the same opinion that under the rule of this House heretofore, so to speak, we ha,ve had war and pestilence; and I say to gentlemen around me that by and by they will come to me and say before this Congress 

clo.:es its session that the amendments to the e rules have brought war pe tilence, and famine with them. [Laughter.] 

lla...-ing stated that much, I want to sa.y that I may be mistaken about 

this; each one must act according to his own opinion; but the vote just 

taken shows the fact that the Committee on Rules, with you at the 

he:1<l, 1\Ir. Speaker, are to be sustained~--and the >ote was taken on the 

it'll propo. ition-and that this report is to be adopted. While I will 

sny that there is no argument in favor of the distribution of these bills 

in part that does not legitimately run to their distribution in fullpublic buildings and grounds appropriation to Committee on: Public 

Bni~dings and Grounds, deficiency estimates to be scattered among the 

appropriate committees, pension bills to that committee, and so onyet I stand ready, M:r. Speaker, as this experiment is to be tried, in 

good faith to let, so fur as my Yote is concerned, its friends provide the det.til~, and no one will be more gratified than myself, if the scheme l'lh·· l l prll,-e a :;;ncce. R. . 

hlr. BROWN, ofPenn~.rlmnia. Yon surrender, then? 

Mr. CANNON. Yes; I surrender because I am compelled to sur- render . . But I will say further to my ti'iend fi·om Pennsylvania, if perchance his constituents should Cc'l.ll him to account for the vote given 

to-day be can come to me and I will give him a clean bill, because I 

belie...-e he is mi taken and does not understand-it. [Laughter.] 

The question being taken upon lli. SPRINGER's amendment, it was 

rejected. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

8.. To the improvement of rivers and harbors: to the Committee on Rivers :md Harbors; and the Committee on Rh·ers and Ha.rborssha.llhave the same privilege in reporting bills making appropriations for the improvement of rivers and hnrhors as is accordPd to the Committee on Appropriations in reporting gen- eral appropriation bills. 

Mr. BROWNE, of Indiana. Mr. Speaker, before me in the printed 

report what seems to be clause 8 ends with the word "harbor," the 

balance having aline drawn through it. 

The SPEAKER. That is as the committee reports it to the House. 

It is recommended that that portion be stricken out. 

lr. BROWNE, of Indiana. I move to concur in the report of the 

committee by adding after the word "harbor·" the words ''except to 

makea.ppropriations for the improvement thereof;'' so that it will read: 

To the improvement of rivers and harbors: to the Committee on Rivers and Harbors, except to make appropriations for the improvement thereof. 

1\Ir. MORRISON. That has just been voted down. 

The amendment of M:r. BROWNE, of Indiana, ~as not agreed to. 

Mr. WILLIS. As I understand, the amendment offered by the com- mittee is now pending. 

The SPEAKER. It is. 

Mr. WILLIS. Before it is voted upon I would like to ask the gentleman from illinois whether it is intended by the provisions in lines 

238 and 239 to give the Committee on Rivers and Harbors the same privilege as is given by the clause here proposed to be stricken out. 

Ur. UORRISON. It does. It gets the same power in the section 

an thorizing appropriations. • :t1r. WILLIS. That is right. 

The amendment of the committee was agreed to. 

The Clerk I"ead sections 9 to 14. 

The amendments proposed by the committee were agreed to nem. con. 

'!'be Clerk read the fifteenth section, as follows: 

15. To the relations of the United Stat.es with the Indians and the Indian tribes, including appropriations therefor: to the Committee on Indian Affairs. 

1\Ir. THROCKMORTON. I offer the amendment which I send to th~ desk. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

In line 145, in sed between the word "therefor" and the words "to the Com- mittee on Indian Affairs" the word.s "also the consideration of Indian depre- da.'io n claims." 

M:- THROCKUORTO~. I am aware that at the conclusion of the 

last paragraph of Rule XXI the amendment propo ed by the committee makes this provision: 

No bill for the p!lyment or adjudication of any prh~ate claim against the Gov- ment shaH be referred, except by unanimous consent, to any other than the fol- Io ing-named committees, viz: To the Committee on Invalid Pen ions, to the omdlittee on !'en ion , to the Committee on Claims, to the Committee on War Claim , to the Committee on Pdntte Land Claims, and to the Committee on Ae- ro~~ -

I desire to call the attention of t.be Honse to the fact that some or 

mo t of the claims in relation to Indian depredation are not claims 

again t the Government, and hence they would be considered by the 

Committee on Inruan Affairs. There are other claims arising ont of the 

Indian depredations which are not provided for by the treaties with 

the Indians, and th e would be claims against the Government. My 

object is that the Committee on Indian Affairs shall consider andrepor ou claim for Indian depredation , whether they be claims against 

the Indian fnn'd proyided by the treaHes or claims against the Government. There are various trib w·ith whom there are no treaties proYiding for I"ecl::u::nations again t them. 

Mr. NELSO~. Ifthe·objcctofthis amendment is to give the Committee on Indian Affairs the authority to pass on depredation claim 

and report bills for their payment, I will say the committee has alr~'tdy 

that power. If it is the d ·ign of this a,mendment to allow the incorporation of depredation claim in a general appropriation bill, that 

pow r ought not to be given to the committee. It is a dangerous power, 

and the Committee on Indian A1fairs ought not to be permitted to bring 

in any claim in the nature of a depredation claim or any private claim 

into a general appropriation bill. 

1\Ir. THROCK IOH.TON. Thu,t is not the object. AS the rule now i , clai1us arising from Indian depredations are referred to the Committee on Indian Affairs, but appropriations for them are not incorporated in tbe Indian appropriation bill. The object ofthi amendment 

is, that the Committee on Indi:m Affairs shall consider and report upon 

the propriety or impropriety of paying these Indian depredation claims 

that are provided 1or by treaty between the Indians and the Government and report them separately. And there are claims which are not provided for by treaty but which arise from depredations by Indians 

which would be just claims ag:Yn t the Government; and the object 

of my amendment is that the committee may consider both those provided for by treaty and tho e not provided for, but not that they shall 

put them on appropriation bills. . Mr. NELSON. I say naain, if I understand the gentleman from 

Texas correctly, this amendment ought not to be adopted. The Committee on Indian Affairs already has. the general power to investigate 

and report by bill all these claims. It has that general power, and that 

power is ample and sufficient. If anything more is intended by thi. 

amendment in addition to tbu,t, such additional power should not be 

granted and this amendment should be Yoted down. 

I say this from the experience I have bad in the last two years on that committee, that one of t.be greatest dangers it encounters is from 

the hot of depredation claims, and no power honld be given to the 

committee to report those claims beyond the power it already has. Mr. THROCKMORTON. The gentleman 1i·om Minnesota does not 

understand the object of my amen.dment. .As I have already stated, 

there arc claims arising against the Government for depredations by 

tbelndiansthattheserule wonldexcludefrom thatcommittee. There 

is a portion of tho~e claims whi:ch is left in the hands of the committee as provided-by this proPQsition; but there are other claims which would 

be excluded by the amended rules and would be referred to the Com- mitteeon Claims. And any man who know the great number of claims 

before that committee knows that these claims for Indian depredations 

never could be reached by it. 

lli. LAIRD. The district I have the honor to represent was n. few 

years ago on the frontier, and there is a large number of claims in the 

hands of citizens who suffered depredations from the savages. .As I . understand the amendment of the gentleman from Texas its object is 

to confer on the Committee on Indian Affairs the power to adjust these 

claims and to report appropriations for them where they do not affect 

anything except the annuitie coming to the e Indian tribes and does 

not involve an appropriation of money de noro from the Treasury. Is 

that the idea? 

Mr. THlWC.IUIORTON. Yes, sir; but it goes further. There are certain claims for depredations by Indians not provided for by treaty, 

and the rule as propo ed to be amended seeks to take the consideration 

of these claims from the Committee on Indian .Affairs and to give it to 

the Committee on Claims. I think sound judgment requires that all 

these claims arising from depredations by Indians against. the tribal 

funds or against the Government should be considered by the Committee on Indian .Affairs. 

Mr. LAIRD. I certainly agree with the gentleman from Texas. 

The amendment ought to prevail. [Cries of "Vote!" "Vote!"] I am ready for the vote. - The question being taken, the amendment was not agreed to; there 

being-ayes 30, noes not coun.ted. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair will state that the Committee on Ruleg 

has proposed no further amendment to Rule XI until the forty-ninth 

clause is reached. Unless some gentleman desires to offer an amend-
1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 323 

ment to the other portions of the role the Chair will direct the Clerk 

to read clause 49. 

Tbe Clerk read as follows: 

The Committee on Rules propose to amend clause 49 by inserting, before the 

word "appropriations," the words " having jurisdiction of;" and by inserting, 

after the words "general appropriation bills," the words "the Committee on Rivers and Harbors, bills for the improvement of rivers and harbors;" so as to make the clause read as follows: 

"The following-named committees shall ba.ve leave to report at any time on the matters herein stated, viz: the Committee on Elections1 on the right of a. member to his seat; the Committee on Ways and Means, on oills raising reve- nue ; the committees having jurisdiction of appropriations, the general appropriation bills; the Committee on Rivers and Ha.rbor, bills for the improvement of riYers and harbors; the Committee on Enro11ed Bills, enrolled bills; the 

Committee on Printing, on all matters referred to them of printing for the use of'tlle House or two Houses; o.nd the Committee on Accounts, on all mat- ters of expenditure of the contingent fund of the House. . · 

Mr. HERBERT. I move to amend by inserting in this paragraph, 

between lines 243 and 244, these words: 

.A.ny commission authorized by law to report by bill.to the Honse shall have 

]cave to report such bill at any time, and may call the same up for consideration as pro>ided in the fifth clause of Rule XXIV. · 

This amendment, I believe, has the approval of the Committee on 

Rules. 

:Mr. W AHNER, of Ohio. Let us understand the amendment. 

The SPEAKER. There are two commissions authorized by·law to 

report by bill to this Congress. This amendmentwillgi.ve. those commissions the privilege of reporting their bills at any time and of calling up their reports in the morning hour. . 

Mr. MORRISON. Without such a provision those committees would· 

rune, under the rules, no opportunity to report. 

The SPEAKER. They are not called as committees. 

Mr. HEAGAN. What are the commissions? 

The SPEAKER. There is one on ordnance and one on the geologi.- . cal and geodetic surveys. 

The amendment of .Mr. HERBERT was agreed to. 

Mr. COBD. I move the amendment whieh I send to the desk. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

Jnf'el"t after the word" harbor," in line 232, the words n Committee on Public 

Land!'<, bills fur the forfeiture of land grants to railroad and other c;:orporations, bills preventing speculation in the public lands, and bills for the reservation of 

the vublic lands for the benefit of actual and bonafide settlers. 

Mr. COBB. Mr. Speaker, I think members will at once see the importance of this amendment, which simply embodies what was a special" rule of the House in the last CoDgress. This question of the public 

lands is perhaps one of the most important upon which we are called 

to legislate, and it is becoming more important every year. Under 

this amendment, as will be observed, the Committee on Public Lands 

will have the right to report at any time bills for the forfeiture ofland 

grants to rail road or other corporations-meaning, of course, where such 

g-r::mts ha>e not been properly ~ed under the law. It provides, further, forthereportingofbills which loo"k to theprotection ofthepublic 

domain and its reservation for actual bona fide settlers. Every one familiar witb our public Jand system is aware of the depredations and 

frauds committed by parties who seek to procure the public lands for 

speculati>e purposes instead of for homesteads. Ourpuhlic lands are steadily and rapidly diminishing in area. It therefore becomes important, I submit, that the Committee on the Public Lands, to which 

these questions of great public ~gnitude are referred, should ha-ve 

right of way in th:fs Honse for their legislative measures. 

I will not take up time by going into details with reference to the manner in which our public domain is being despoiled. It is not nec- essary for me tocliscuss now the land-grant question and the im}lortance 

of Congress taking up that question and determining what lands now unjustly held byrailroads as against settlers should be forfeited.. Every 

member here understands as well as I the importance of these matters. 

I trust, therefore, that this amendment will be adopted. 

Mr. MORRISON. I hope the amendment will be voted down. 

:Mr. HENLEY. I want to draw the attention of this House to the 

fact before we come to a vote on the proposed amendment, that the 

Forty-eighth Congress almost unanimously adopted a rule offered by 

the gentleman from Indiana [Mr. HoLMAN] embodying this identical 

proposition-that is, making bills forfeiting unearned land grants to 

railways bHls of a privileged character. I wish also to draw the attention of the House to this other still more important fact, that since 

the adoption of that rule by the last House two national conventions · have assembled and with all concei. vable solemnity pledged themselves 

this thing should be done. Therefore, Ur. Chairman, to vote in opposition to the proposed amendment of the gentleman from Indiana I 

conceive would be nothing less than infidelity to those pledge;s. 

11-fr. SPRINGER. I desire to state that in the propositions I submitted to the Honse, and which were referred to the Committee on 

R,ules, there was one which substantially made this precise addition to 

the rules. I am glad that the gentleman from Indiana [Mr. CoBB] 

the former chairman of the Committee on Public Lands has renewed 

his proposition as an amendment to the rules, and I hope that the Committee on Rules will not regard such amendments as being in antagonism to the proposition which they have reported, but will allow the 

House to assist them in making what must be considered as valuable 

additions. This certainly is one, and, as the gentleman from Indiana 

bas stated, it is in accordance with the vote cast by the House in the 

last session of Congress with unprecedented unanimity, and which 

gave the Committee on Public Lands the same privilege which this 

amendment proposes to give it. It is in accordance with the pledges 

of our party to the people and in accordance with the vote of the Dem- • 

ocratic majority in this Honse in the last Congress when we gave this 

committee the same power. I hope there will be a departure from the 

uniform proceeding heretofore made upon amendments, so that this 

provision may be allowed to go into the rules. 

I\Ir. HOLMAN. Mr. Speaker, I trust the motion will be adopted. 

I think there will be no more important subjects before Congress.than 

those embodied in the proposition of my colleague, thn.t the Committee on Public Lands should have the right and privilege of the most favored 

committees to report and have considered bills for the purpose which 

he has indicated, to protect the public domain and reclaim the forfeited 

grants. It is a subject growing more important every hou,r as your 

great public domain disappears in vested estates. ·I call the attention 

of the Honse to the fact that at the opening of the last Congress the 

proposition giving this committee these powers was adopted I believe with only 6 assenting votes on a yea-and-nay vote. The subject 

is more urgent now than then. I again repeat that I hope the proposition will be adopted. The highest public interests demand it. 

1\Ir. :MORRISON. Mr. Speaker, if we commence by giving this privilege of report or special right to all, or so many, of these committees, 

they will all be privileged, all be placed upon an equal footing, and we 

will then never get to the end of anything. We shall then be 38 if none were privileged. When this proposition was presented in the lru;;t Congress as a separate proposition or privilege I voted for it. I shall vote 

for it again, and have no doubt a large majority of the House now as then will vote for it when it comes before us for consideration as a separate measure, and therefore I insist it shaH not be allowed to go into 

this report 38 a part of a permanent code of rules. 

1\fr. LAIRD. :Mr. Speaker, the gentleman from Massachusetts [Mr. 

LoNG] may be satisfied with the government of this country by the 

Committee on Appropriations-so may the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. RANDALL] and the gentlemE.'n from New .Jersey and from 

New York. There are some reasons for this not found in the exalted 

patriotism and intelligence of those gentlemen. One is the head and 

others members of that committee. In judging of the weight which 

should be given to the opinions of these gentlemen, it is just to con- sider their relation to the money appropriated by the Committee on Appropriations. While the center of population of the United States has 

passed a thousand miles westward from the Atlantic coast, the center 

of appropriations and expenditures of public money will be found on a line drawn from this Capitol through the. city of Philadelphia to Boston 

by way of New York. 

To my mind the despotism of the Committee on Appropriations, as 

constituted in the last Congress, is in keeping with the domination 

which the East has exercised over theW est, since there has been a West. 

The East has colonized the West, and Eastern men in the West have 

kept alive a prej udire for the East, which has colored Western thought 

and action 'for generations. The representatives of the West collie here 

to find the important places on the committees that shape the legislation of the nation, filled by men of the East, and they are forced tO pay 

tribute even in the passage oflaws to the domination of the older States. 

Admitting that the East is mother to the West, is it not time that 

we declared, not a sectional but a legislative, independence; time that we realized that we had reached our majority, and have a right to think 

and act for ourselves? 

In no way can we more effectually do this than to break down the 

despotismofthis committee, composed for the mo...c:tpart of men whose 

sectional sympathies are all against us, and some of whom are either 

ignorant, or, worse, indifferent to the development of the great West. 

It may be answered that this is a sectional viewofthe question. Possibly so; but is it not as defensible for a Western man in behalf of 

justice to the West to rebel against the tyranny of an Eastern committee, 

as it is for that committee, in behalf of Eastern ignorance (of theW est), 

and self. interest, to continue to dwarf the powers of Congress and paralyze the development of the whole country? We are moving on; you 

are standing still. You are developed; we are developing; you are cautions, conservative; we audacious, progressive; and from the re- ciprocal action and reaction of the forces we represent must and will 

come the harmony of good laws. 

Thus far in the progress of the debate the Committee on Appropriations stands charged with the failure to give the cotmtry a navy, and 

provide fortifications for the Atlantic frontier. An unpatriotic omission truly, but still subject to the negative defense that the omission 

has not cost the country one dollar of treasure or one drop of human 

blood. Their failure to provide against prospective dangers by the oonstrnctionofa navy and coastdefens~, isaninjurytoournationalpride 

which so far in no wise imperils the property or person of a single 

Americnn citizen. 

So much for the failure of this committee to permit national legislation looking to the protection of the East from prospective danger. How 

has the West fared at their hands? In the Territories of New Mexico 
324 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. DECEl\IBER 18, 

all(} Arizona. a war of extermination has raged since the adjournment 

of the last Congress, and continues to-day. Geronimo and his band of 

Chiricabua Apaches, breaking from the San Carlos agency in :M:ay 

last., have murdered over an hundred rlefenseless settlers and destroyed 

hundreds ofthousandsof doJlars' worth of property and driven millions f~om inYestment in that region of unexa.mpled mineral richness. 

The un<:heckerl outrages of this band of s.wagcs have struck a blow 

at the development of these Territories from which they will not re- cover in a half score of years. Unless this Congress wishes to see a 

commentary upon this day's work written in the blazing homes and m ordered and mutilated bodies of the pioners of Arizona and New Mexico, 

let them take at least one bill from this committee and give it into the 

bands of some committee that has time to so consider and act upon the 

Indian question as to control these and all other Indians or kill them. 

We of the West do not ask this in vengeance of the numberless outrages of which this section has been the victim-outrages as often 

charge-able to the ignorance or indifference of Congress as to the mur- derous savage. We ask it in the name of mercy to both the savage and . 

the pioneer. 

Let the government of these cut-throat Ap-:tches be placed in the 

bands Qf a committee, a majority of whom shall be from the West or 

Southwest. Put no man on that committee from east of the Alleghany 

Mountains, unless he is in favor of·the prosecution of these murderers 

of mothers and ba.bes or is ·willing to see them colonized en Cape Cod 

or Beacon Hill. 

We want this business in the hands of a committee who, from ex- perience, will know enough to protect both the Indian and the white 

• man; and the only protection of the white man lies in justice to the 

red man. 

The cause of Indian wars in most cases comes not from the mismanagemen-t or rascality of agents or the encroachments of border men;- but 

from the lying contra-Cts of the Government, miscalled treatie.."!. 

\Vbenever the agents of the United States, to .secure the pe..'lceable re- lease of lands held by Indians and their removal to some reservation, 

commonly selected because no white man can live upon It, promises 

the Indian a home where game is plenty aiH1, in addition to this, all 

the blankets he wants and all the provisions l1e can eat, the Indinn 

has not learned that the written, and not the spoken word controls. lie 

listens, believes, and is turned loose upon a gameless desert. His al)-

peal1or provisions is answered by the treaty which binds the Government in writing to give him one ration a week. He asks for more; the 

agent truthfully tells him be bas no more. The Indian sn.ys, "But the 

Great Father promised me all·I wanted to eat if I would come here." 

The ~enttells him tha.t it makes no difference what the Great Father 

said; hcisnotbonnd by that, butonlybywhatwas written-the treaty. 

'l'reaty1 indeed! Treaty with ebildren 'having the destructive powers 

of men, multiplied by centuries of savagery! 

The Indian asks to leave the reserva.tion to hunt for food, not for 

f11 n, and is told that if be does he violates the treaty and will be killed. 

What answer is to be made to this being, fearless as the eagle, maddened with hunger, and stung to fury by deceit? · What answer, gentlemen of the East, gentlemen of the Appropriations 

Committee, you of the humane society;-seated in the soft-cushioned 

seats· of authority, defended by distance from the stealthy blow and 

brutal death? 

Your answer is, let him work as others work ! Ay, he does work; 

his tools are the knife, the hatchet, and the gun; his fields the homes 

of those who are the forerunners of a great nation's power, who, trusting to the parchment promises of protection to life and·property, have 

gone out to find a road and blaze the way for civilization. 

J..et tbis.bnsiness go into the bands of men who have time to think 

and feel;· men who know enough to know that an Indian will fight before be will starve; men just enough to realize that if this Government 

takes· from an Indian his lands and game, the implication is that it will 

give him in return food enough to eat and clothing for his nakedness. 

Let there be no more lying contracts. Let this Government make 

business-like agreements with the Indian and then keep them. 

Let it be understood that the Indian can not live on the sympathy 

of humane societies. With him it is b-read, or bloody reprisal upon all 

that comes in his way. Do not mix education with starvation. Feed 

him at the same time that you teach him. Give him the ration of a soldier, 

appropriate for biro as you do for the Army, and then if be does not keep 

his contract of peace, kill him; and the conscience of all mankind will 

approve the a-ct. See toot the Indian is properly fed, then disarm and 

dismount him, and visit with punishment as if for mmder any man who 

provides him with arms or horses. Give him a few cattle and sheep, a 

good range, and cupidity will civilize him. 

Do this, and you take the menace of death from the pioneers of the 

West and give wings to the development of these Territories, destined, 

in my judgment, to outstrip Col:orado and California in the race for 

wealth. 

Mr. Speaker, I am aware that the Committee on Appropriations will 

meet this proposition with the answer that it is not economical; 

Which is preferable, economy of human lif~ or of money? As the 

gentleman from Michigan [Mr. BURROWS] pregnantly remarked but a moment ago, 11 There is an economy that is criminal.'' If we can not 

save both, which shall we sa-ve, the dollar or the man? 

The Commlttee on Appropriations last year scaled the estimates of 

the Indian Bureau $1,500,000 and upward. That bureau asked for 

nearly eight millions and got six millions. . The House will take notice that. during this debate, in the face of 

the boast by the Committee on Appropriations, that the Departments 

bad money enough, the proceedings were interrupted by the readin~ 

of a message from the President calling our attent~on to the dangerous 

deficiency in the appropriations for the support of the northern Chey- ennes. 

This is not the only instance of a failure of the supplies <luring the 

past year. In several cases, notably tba.t of ibc Mescalero Apaches 

and the Southern Utes, supplies not provided for by existing law have 

been furnished to prevent hostile outbreaks. 

The Territori~ are practically helpless here; they have no Yote in 

this Congress. Any failure on our part to deal fairly and generously 

with them is obnoxious to that principle ofnaturaljustice which commands us to protect the weak. 

Any economy, falsely so called, which turns loose the western savoge 

npon the western settlcr·isadisgracetothisHou e and an outrage upon 

American civilization. . , . · 

Mr. Speaker, the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. RANDALL] argues danger to the country from the distribution of the appropriation 

bills to seven committees, because since the Committee on Agricnlture was empowered to report appropriations for the Department of Agriculture the appropriations for that Department ba\e increased. The appropriations for that Department have increased since 1880. So have . all the appropriations for all the Departments of the Government. The 

appropriations in. tpe gentle¥1an's own State and in that of the other 

great economist from Indiana [Ur. HoL:MAN] have increased also. Tlie 

gentlemen do not complain of the increase that comes home to them! 

Is it the idea of. the genUemen that the public money expended west 

of the Mississippi River is wasted and that spent east is saved? 

Is it patriotic to spend millions on public buildings in Pennsyh:ania 

and cdmin::U to expend a little more than half a million on agriculture 

in the West? 

We submit, Ur. Speaker, that the test is not whether the appropriations for agriculture have increased, bnt whether they ought to have 

incl'eased. Never before the year 1885 have the appropriations for 

agricultme equaled or exceeded $500,000, and those of 1885 would not. 

have equaled that sum but for the creation of the Bureau of Animal 

Industry, which took $150,000 of the appropriation in 1885 for the Agri- cnltural D~partment, and $100,000 of that appropriation in 1886. 

The average annual appropriations for the .Agricultural Department 

from its creation to 1880 were $84,634.37 per year, and the total expenditure from its creation to that year amounted to $3,216,114.37. 

There was appropriated for the support of the military and ml.val establishment of this Government in 1877 the sum of 50,117,824. Th(} 

appropriation for agriculture in the sa..me year was $174,686. That is, 

there was appropriated for defense in a time of profound peace two hundred and eighty-six times as much as thel'e was for production. · I do 

not say that this was too large an appropriation for national defense, 

but I do say it was inlinitely too small an appropriation for agriculture. 

The census of 1880 shows that, practically, one-half of the population 

of the United States live by agriculture, and the new 09ntribution 

which they annually add makes possible the material prosperity of the 

w bole country. . The gentleman from Pennsyhania [Mr. RANDALL] complains of the 

increase of agricultural a.pporpriations. I invite not only his but the 

attention of this House to the amounts appropriated in aid of ngricult. 

ure in that same year, 1877, by other governments. 

Austria. and Hungary ______ ·-------------··------------ $5, 495,125 

France, for agriculture and commerce---------··------- 20, 53<1,-410 

PruS8ia --------------------------------------------- 2, 612,340 Italy, for agriculture and commerce ________ --· -------- 2, 715,995 

Russia, for agriculture and public lands-------~--------- 14,826,184 

Great Britain ____ -------··-------- ____ -----------·----- 795, 590 

Sweden_---------.----------------------------------- 651,737 

United States (as before stated)------------------------ 174,686 

The Kingdom of Sweden, with twenty-one times less area and less 

than one-twelfth the population of -.be United States, appropriates more 

than three times as much toward the promotion of her agricultural industries than does this country; and this, too, with an area scarcely half as large as the State of Texa.s, and a population less than the State of 

New York. 

Mr. Speaker, there is one item in the appropriation complained of 

that I wish to refer to briefly; that is the item of $250,000 for the establishment of a bureau of animal industry, having for its object theprot-ection of domestic animals from contagious diseases. The gentle- man [Mr. RANDALL] says this is a. wasteful appropriation. · 

Two hundred and fifty thousand dollars too much? 

Alas, Mr. Spea.ker, bad the Forty-eighth Congress had the courage 

and intelligence to have appropriated at least four times as much for 

this purpose it would have resulted in the saving of millions. 

Does the gentleman recall the German, French, and (practically) 

English embargo on American meats? The several States of the Union 

might better have appropriated and expended a miHion dollars e.1.cb 
1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 325 

than have suffered the loss which has fallen upon this country since of the Missouri River, and for that matter to the entire country. On 

the 3d of April, 1885, the Commissioner of the General Land Office 

issued the following order: 

1880 in this one item alone. 

Doel the gentleman from Pennsylvania realize that disease has cost a loss (direct and indirect) which scales 100,000,000 during that period? 

The losses to my own State (Nebraska) in the last ye.:'tr from contagious diseases of swine alone amount to $2,445,778. . 

The United States has 40,000,000 head of horned cattle; Great Britain h:lS 7,000,000 head. With her 7,000,000 bead of horned cattle 

that country has sustained an annual loss of$6,000,000 per year from 

pleuro-pneumonia in her herds. If that disease gets rooted in 

this country we may look forward to an annual loss of from $60,000,-

000 to $70,000,000, and this disease when once disseminated can not 

be stamped out except by the destruction of the herds. Pleuro-pneuSUSPENSION OF ENTRIES. 

Final action in this office upon all entries of the public lands, except private cash entries, and such scrip locations as are not dependent upon act.s of settlement and cultivation, is suspended in the following localities, namely: All west of the first guide meridian west in Kansas. All west. of range 17 

west in Nebraska. The whole of Colorado except land in late Ute reservation. All of Dakota, Idaho, Utah, Washington, New Mexico, Montana, Wyoming,and Nevada, and that portion of Minnesota north of the indemnity limits of the 

Northern Pacific Railroad and east of the indemnity limits of Saint Paul, Minneapolis, and Manitoba Railroad. 

In addittion, final a-ction in this office will be suspended upon all timber en- tries under the act of June3, 1878; also upon all cases of desert-land entries. 

monia has already appeared in nearly half the States of the Union, and APRIL 3, 1885. ,V. A. J. SPARKS, Commissioner. 

as it can not be successfully grappled with by the States, owing to their As appears by the report of the Commissioner of the General Land 

lirrrited jurisdiction, it must be controlled, if controlled at all, by the Office, the number of pre-emption entries made during the year was 47,-

General Government through Congress. 946, which he says would cover 7,671,360 acres ofland. The number 

The value of the herds of horned cattle of the United States is given of homestead entries made during the year is placed at 50,877, em braeat $1,200,000,000, and when the gentleman from Pennsylvaniaremem- ing an area of 7,415,885 acres. The numberofpre-emption entriesunbersthatthisaniountrepresentsthepresentearningsandpossiblefuture aded upon under the operation of the foregoing order at the close of 

profits of one-half the population of this country he will hesitate to the fiscal year was 32,374, and the number of homestead entries un- complain of the paltry appropriation of $250,000 expended in defense acted on was 28,811-making a total of settlers' claims unacted on of 

of this vast property from the encroachments of disease. The gentle- 61,185, which would represent 9,789,600 acres ofland. man is never tired of asking Congress to protect the labor of his gre.:'lt The Commissioner states that final proof was made in 22,066 of the 

Sta.te from the ruinous competition of the pauper-paid labor of Europe. 5o,877 homestead entries, but does not state that patents issued in any 

We have been patriotic enough to stand by him, believing it to be of such cases. It is fair, therefore, to presume that no patents have 

American to even suffer some in our individual interests rather than to ~ed to any of t:Pe 22,066 homesteaders who have made final proof. 

become an obstacle to the prosperity of our wage-working .countrymen This would give 3,530,560 acres to add to the 9,789,600, making a toof the East. You ask us to protect your labor against poor pay. We ta.lof13,320,160acresofhomesteadand pre-emption land suspended. 

ask you to protect our property againstdestruction. For twenty-five To any one conversant with the land laws of the United States, itis 

years we have answered that we woUld protect you. Can you now af- known that any homesteaaer or pre~emptor of the puhliclands, having 

ford to answer that you will not protect us? The question is so plain complied with the laws as to settlement and improvement of the tract 

that the wayfaring man, though from Pennsylvania, can no more af- taken by him, can make final proof on the same at the expiration of six 

ford to say no, than "the wayfaring man, though a fool, can afford to say months, and on thepaymentoftheminimumor double minimum price, 

there is no God. as the case may be, receive a final receipt for the land, which. final re~ Ron. H. G. Davis said in his pla-ce in the Senate of the United States, ceipt, under the decisions of the Supreme Court of the United States 

in January, 1881: and the decisions of the State supreme courts, has always been treated 

From the time of the landing at Jamestown and Plymouth Rock the Ameri- as absolute title, and would be treated so nowbutfor this order, which can farmers have always constituted the advance guard and the largest part of operates as an impeachment of title, as well as an impea-chment of the that grand army of progress and liberty which in its triumphant march in the 

face of dangers, trials, privations, and the cruelty of the savage, has gradually good faith of the 84,251 settlers making the settlements and proof subdued forests, crossed rivers, and climbed mountn.ins,until civilization, society, thereof. 

~~ri!:· :h!f~~~sa::,dt~'<fKI~omes have been established from ocean to ocean As the report of. the Commissioner relates to the 30th of June, 1885, 

The American farmers have laid the foundations of an empirel'on this conti- nll of the persons who had made entries by that time would now be 

nent destined largely through their efforts, virtues, industry, courage, and de- entitled to make final proof and receive their final receipts for these 

votion to free government to surpass in substantial glory, grandeur, wealth, 1 d if th uld h t li c 'th the la to 

progress and prosperity all the nations of this world and the achievements of an s, ey CO s ow, as mos can, comp an e Wl w as history. ' . 1 settlement and improvement. This would make the number of homeOur liberties were conquered and our Constitution made mainly by farmers, I stead and pre-emption settlers on the public domain of the United States 

and to them, in any and every great crisis, we n:rust look for the safe-keeping l titl d to te t t 1 · t t h b th rt and protection of both. As a. rule the agricultural classes have always been de- I now en e . pa n ' or 0 C :um pa en ~ ::S S own Y. e repo . ' 

voted to liberty, peace, and good order·, and the friends of e tablished society and · 84,251-that lS, 84,251 persons, beads of families, representing at a fair 

the el?emies of disorder, wrong, change, ~ole~ce, and unjust revolu~ion; th~y estimate a population of 252,753 persons, under the ordinary operations constitute the reserve forces of conservatism mall governments, partiCularly m of the law entitled prima facie to an absolute title to 13 320 160 acres 

ou;~"e collection of large populations in commercial centers, by depleting the of land, and now deprived of their rights by the order cited.' 

country, has ~dangerous tendency .. It is in th~ cit!es and these g~eat ~enters But for this order the Government would have received from the sale 

that rmgs, strikes< frauds, t~des u~IO~s, central!zation, a~d ~onsolida.tiOn are of these lands to these settlers the b'Um.of $16 650 200· this bein(r at the 

born, fostered, ana best flourish, while m the agr1cultural districts the tendency . . • . ' ' 9 1 is in the opposite direction. ; mmunum rate of $1.25 per acre for the 13,320,160 acres of land hDllg 

General Jackson- in his fourth annual message to Congress (Decem- up'' under the order, and the settlers would under fair circumstances 

ber, 1832), says: ' have been able to procure credit on theses~melands of from $16,650,20.0 

The wealth and strength of a country are its population, and the best part of to $2?,310,~0 over and above the sum paid .to the Government. ThiS 

the population are the cultivators of the soil . . Independent farmers are every- sum if so raised by mortgage of the lands IS necessary and would be 

where the basis of society and the true friends of liberty. used by the settler in making life on the claim possible during the 

Washington, in a letter to Sir John Sinclair, said: winter and providing seed for the spring planting. 

I know of no pursuit in which more real and important service can be ren- In the face of this order the settlers can not, so far as my knowledge de~ed to any country than by improving its agriculture an~ its breed of useful goes, raise a cent on their lands. In this connection I beg to submit 

ammals.. . . . . as a part of my remarks a letter addressed to myself, written on the 

Washington, m his eighth message to Congress, sru.d: 15th of this monthfromaconstituent1,600miles away; the writer is an I tis not to be doubted that, with reference either to individual or national wei- intellicrent man located in the heart of the n~rricultural district in Nefare, agriculture is of primary importance. In proportion as nations advance b k 0 hich ·' ffi t d 0 

in population, and other circumstances of maturity, this trut.h becomes more ras a, W lS a ec e · apparent, and renders the cultivation of the soil more an object of public patron- DEAlt Sm: The actions and rulings of Commissioner Sparks in regard to the 

age. Institutions for promoting it grow up, supported-by the public purse; and issuing of patents as affecting deeding and mortgaging land on final receipts to what object can it be dedie&ted with greater propriety? will almost depopulate Southwest Nebraska unless it is reversed. 

M Speak . · th li ht f th · · d f th F th f h' n~ t The idea of prohibiting people from obtaining money enough to live on while r. er, In e g . 0 e WlS om 0 e a er 0 lS vvun TY:' . they are trying to impro\"e this ''Great American Desert" appears to me most 

and the strength of one oflts grandest defenders, .Andrew Jackson, IS I ridiculous. The effect of the whole matter will be to force the homesteaders to it not safe to say that upon the protection and elevation of agriculture, ell their claims for whatever they can get and leave the ~ount17 and go back 

and its accompanyrn· g productive industries depends to a great extent l to the densely po:pulated East; and of course the lands will fallmto the hands . . •. ' of the cattle syndicates. not only the prospenty of the country but the stability of the Govern- It would look very much like this was the intention of the Commissioner "to 

mentitself? Themostprosperousnationsoftheearthfosteragriculture -

1 a man. up a tree;" but the mor~ chari~ble vi_ew to take of the case is th!lt 

b · ti f fr h bl" tr d fi d •t CommiSsiOner Sparks has never lived, w1th a. wife and half dozen ragged chily ~pp~opna ODS 0 money om t e pu lC · east:uy, an n 1 a dren, in a od house for four or five years trying to prove up on a. homestead, 

paJ1ng mvestment. and knows but little of the effect of his rulings. The time has come when the intelligent producers of this country Sincerely yours, 

should demand at the hands of their representatives the substantial 

recognition of the fact that the productive industries form the basis of 

national wealth, and that this fact be recognized by extending to them 

fostering care, support, and protection commensurate witli their importance. 

Mr. Speaker, there is another question of great moment to the 

country which I have the honor to represent and to the country west 

The order in question, it will be noticed, applies to all lands west 

of the first guide meridian west, in Kansas, and all west of range 17 

west in Nebraska. .An examination of any map of those States will 

show that the suspension affects fully one-half of the area of each ot 

those States named. More than this, the order, it will be observed, 

operates to withdraw from settlement all the lanrls in the United States 
326 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. DECEMBER 18, 

available for settlement in the States and Territories west, southwest, 

and northwest. All the lands owned by the Government now being 

sought for settlement by the people, except those in the south, are 

practically unavailable to the people wanting homes. 

It must be borne in mind that millionaires do not migrate to N e- braska Kan.sns, or Colorado. The people that go there go much as 

the first settlers came to the colonies in the old time. They bring 

neiU1er gold nor silver. They are without resources; their only property is their willingness to work. Their wealth is in the future. They 

are surrounded by no splendor except that of hope. They are sustained alone by the faith of thing;: not seen. 

In the light of the extraordinary con equences of evil to the present 

and future of the States and Territories afl:ected by this order, it becomes pertinent to inquire upon what authority oflaw and what warrant of fact this wholesale slaughter of the rights of 252,753 citizens of 

this country is based? The auth-ority of law is raised by con truction, 

by implication, and that is raised by what is called evidence furnished 

by the published report of eighteen special agents who are relied 

upon t_o impeach the sworn evidence of 83,251 claimants and 16G,502 

disinterested witnesses, and who must have sworn for them, and in addition to this the official finding of the trusted local land officers of the 

Government. 

Some of the evidence (reports) of the special agents would seem to 

commend itself to the ridicule of all reasonable men by statements of 

this kind: 

I give it as my opinion that in Kansas, Nebraska, and Dakota the proportion is 90 per cent. to lOper cent. of b.mafide and possibly successful cultivators. 

· Here the gentleman is speaking of timber-<:ulture claims, and, on the 

strength of this opinion of a man hired t(} hunt down these settlers of 

the frontier, an order il' ues suspending D(}t only timber-<:ulture patents, but all patents. When before, with .the approval of civilized 

men, was the opinion of an informer taken as ground for the suspension 

of the due course of law? No one from the West, that region which 

has suffered mo t from the aggr ions of the landed corporations, but 

will sympathize with the Commissioner in his effort to protect the 

public domain from the encroachments of the ·corporations of all kinds, 

whether cattle kings: so called, or railroads. 

We do not object to the suspension of timber-culture entries or to the 

suspen ion of any entry of whatever kind whenever a specific charge of 

fraud is made against that entry. We do protest against a cloud being 

cast upon the honest claims of settlers on the agricultu:rallands of Nebraska and other States and Territories by the dust raised by eighteen 

spies whose official heads hang upon the slender thread of the caprice 

of an administration mad with reform, and a Departmentwhich believes 

itself laboring with a mountain of fraud, which seems to breathe an atroo phere of suspicion, and which appears more than willing to see in 

the sweat-stained face of theW estern settler a masked and contemptible 

scounill'el, intent on robbing the people of their great patrimony, the 

public land. 

Does not this Congress UBderstand that in Nebraska, where every 

hundred and sixty acres of agricultural land is worth from 500 to 

·1,000 as soon as patented, and where there are from five to twenty 

claimants for every claim; where every man has the right to contest 

any entry, fraud upon the public domain is an impossibility? Does 

it not occur to the honorable Commissioner that he is doing in these 

States and Territories, where the land is valuable for agriculture, the 

very thing that the land-grabbers and thie:ves want done? 

This order makes it impossible for an honest settler to raise a dollar 

on his final receipt; failing in this he must abandon the land, or ~tay 

on it and starve. The result is plain, he is compelled to sell, to sac- rifice for almost nothing what has cost him the torture of long toil 

to get; his claim is "gobbled" by the L'llld shark, tlte cattle syndicates, and he is sacrificed to a special agent who rides through the region 

of ''suspected lands'' in a palace-car and writes lurid reports of crimes 

and shames that smack of the sensational, that ought no more to be 

recei>ed as evidence of the character of the homesteaders than the illustrations in the Police Gazette ought to be received as evidence of the 

fireside morality of New York. 

llL Speaker, these men are poor-good proof they are not r..'l.Scals. 

They are not prepared for a siege, much less can they withstand for 

years the fire of all the official batteries. They have some rights as 

human beings; they are not wholesale 1i.::trs. l'tlen do not commit perjury by the hundred thousand. 

This order covers half n. continent. M:en do not sin by the continent-they do not attempt to take an empire- by perjury. Men are 

not punished geo~aphicul!-y, or condemned by the million without 

their day in court. The reasonable doubt which sases the wretch 

trembling for his life, "the presumption of innocence 77 which guards 

us all, speaks for these men and demands that the heel of the Department ofthe Interior be taken from the neck of these settlers. 

Let the power which has been too long trusted with the Committee on Appropriation betaken from them and given toa.comrilittee which 

will take the time to see and know for itself before it will permit a great Department of this Government to be prostituted through imposition on the one hand or credulity on the other into an engine of op- 'pression. Give the power of this Department into.the hands of acornmittee who will remember that the presumptions of law do not change 

with a change of administration. 

Mr. HISCOCK. The objection to the adoption of the amendment, 

it seems to me, is this, that the more committees to which we give the 

right of way the more confusion we will have on the floor. One will 

be antagonizing tbe bnsine of another, and we will use up an immense 

amount of time in voting which shall have the right of way. 

I undertake to S:l.Y that the Committee on Public Lands "'ill in this 

as it did in the last Congress meet with no successful oppo ition to having all the time assigned to it which it maywant for this purpose. It 

has been the uniform practice to give them that time whenever they 

wanted it. 

In the rule as we ha>e it, in the morning hour they can report their 

bills, and when they are upforconsiderntion, if at the end of that hour 

they shall be unfinished they can go upon the Calendar of unfinished 

business. And it seems to me if they have that right with other committees it is all they can ask 1or, when we know the practice has been 

in the past, as no donbt it will be in the future, to give them such time as they may desire for the consideration of their business. 

Mr. MORRISO~. I demand the previous question. 

The previous question was ordered. 

The Honse divided; and there were-ayes 126. 

So (no further count being demanded) the amendment was adopted. 

l\Ir. l\IILLIKEN. I rise for the purpose of moving an amendment 

to Rule XI by inserting the following as clause 50-· -

l'tlr. HAMMOND. Let me ofter a verbal amendment before the 

amendment of the gentleman from M3ine is taken up. 

lli. 1ILLIKEN. I have no objection. 

Mr. HAMM:OND. I move to amend by inserting in line 239, after 

the word "harbor , " the words "including appropriations therefor. " 

In every other place where there is a. provision for an appropriation bill 

the words "incluqing appropriations therefor" is inserted in the rule. 

Their omission at this place might mislead, and so by the insertion of 

the words I have indicated it will be provided that it is not only the 

pu:rpo e to empower the committee to provide for the improvement of 

river and harbors, but also to make the appropriations therefor. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair will state that the construction placed 

upon these words as they stand in another rule of the Hou e has always been that they apply to appropriations for the improvement of 

rivers and harbors. 

Mr. HAMMOND. I understand that; but it can do no harm, as we 

are now preparing a code of :rules, to putthosewordsin, lest some chairman hereafter in construing the rules shall deem that there exists 

ground for a\! other construction. 

The SPEAKER. The clause of the rule which gave the right of 

consideration under the old rule uses this exact language. 

lli. HAMMOND. But that was when it had other words in connection with it which have sub equently been stricken out. 

The SPEAKER. No; the Chair thinks the gentleman is mi taken. 

The construction has always been that it conferred the right of appropriation. 

J.Ir. HAMMOND. If there is no special occa.sion for it I shall withdmw the amendment in order to S:l.Ve time. 

The SPEAKER. The Clerk will proceed with the reading. 

1t1r. SPRINGER. Before passing to another subject I wish to offer 

an amendment at this point. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

In. ert by adding to line 243 the following: "The committees having authority to report appropriations, and other com- mittees having jurisdiction of the subject-matter thereof, may at any time after the morning hour report bills involving but not making pp.ropriations the pro- visions of which shall retrench expenditure ." 

Mr. SPRINGER. The object of that amendment is to enable the. 

Committee on Appropriations, which are now to be deprived of the 

privilege of incorporating general legislation upon appropriation bills, 

to bring their economical legislation into the House as a privileged 

matter inanothersha.pe, so that we can put provisions for the retrenchment of expenditures in one bill and money propositions in another 

and take them together to the Senate, so that we may still have the 

privilege, which has heretofore been enjoyed by the Hou.!=;e, of legis- . lating in the interest of economy whenever the majority of the Honse 

desires to do so. 

We will not be permitted to place them upon fl.ppropriation bills 

hereafter, and I hope that another avenue will be opened quite as broad 

and quite as good and convenient, so that we can legislate hereafter in 

the interest of economy. 

The question being taken, the amendment propo ed by !\fr. SPRINGER 

was not agreed to. 

Mr. MILLIKEN. I now call up the amendment which I have sent 

to the desk to be inserted as an additional $use, to be known as clause 

50 of Rule XI. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

It shall be.. the duty ofthecommiltee having jurisdiction of the geu~ralappropriation bills on or before the 1st day of March in the long or on or before the 1st day of F ebruary in the short ses ion of Congress to report the general appro- priation bill . 

Mr. MILLIKEN. 1\fr. Speaker, I desire to s:1.y but a word in. ex-
1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 327 

planation of my purpose in introducing this amendment. I suppose 

that every member of this House ha.s, among a thousand others, two 

purposes in new: one to have an opportunity to call up such legislation as he believes to be necessary; and another, the opportunity to understand the l~uislation upon what he is Toting. Now, I will not discuss the question of the use that has been made by the Committee on 

Appropriations of its power in the past. That has been aU pretty well 

gone O\er. My friend upon my right [Mr McKTh""LEY], whom I do 

not now see in his seat, stated ashort time ago that one of the greatest 

abuses was the power in the hands of the Appropriations Committee to 

legislate. That I acknowledge. But, Mr. Speaker, one of its other 

great abuses is its power to obstruct legislation by withholding the 

l)ills upon appropriations to the end of the session, and then use them 

as a club to knock out the propositions and measures of e-very other 

committee that may come up before the House or the country demands 

the passage of. I desire, sir, that there shall be some time in the session, some period when these appropriation bills shall have been passed, 

when we will have an opportunity of discussing other matters of legislation without the power on the part of the Committee on Appropriations, or any other committee that has the right of way in this House, 

of putting its garrote around our necks and choking us off. 

There is another purpose in view, as I stated, and that is that the 

members of the House should have one opportunity to understand the 

legislation that we are called to vote npon. These supply bills are 

great bills; they are matters of great consequence. I do not think that 

the Committee on Appropriations in their discussions in the House have 

belittled their consequence in that respect. But it is a matter of great 

impor~ce to -every member of the House to be able to understand the 

bills before he votes upon them. But as a rule they do not come here 

until toward the close of the session-too late for consideration. 

Mr. HisCOCK. Will the gentleman from Uaine yield to me for a 

suggestion? Will he accept an amendment to his proposition that 

they shall report the bills within thirty days after the general estimates are submitted to them? 

Mr. MILLIKEN. I haTe no objection to that. I only desire to :fix 

some period when they shall come in. 

But a word, sir, further. I ask gentlemen what opportunity did we 

have in the Forty-eighth Congress to understand these matters? Why, 

the sundry civil bill came into this_ House almost at the end of the SP~­

sion, so that there was not time even to read it. It was passed through 

the House under a suspension of the ru1es, just as a mother would make 

a boy shut his eyes and open his mouth to take physic, and nobody 

except God himself, and possibly the Committee on Appropriations, understood what on the green earth or in the heavens above was in that 

bill. Then we had afterward, in the vacation, runple time in which 

we cou1d sit down and look over the bill and see what laws we had been 

passing in that hasty manner forthepeople of this country. I believe 

that every man in this Honse owes it to himself, owes it to his constituency, owes it to his country, that he should vote to give himself an 

opportunity to examine this important legislation before he is called 

upon to vote upon it. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. ROCKWELL. This is the same proposition as was advanced 

yesterday by the gentleman from Massachusetts [Mr. LoNG], who was 

on the Committee on Appropriations of the last Congress. The gentleman from Massachusetts admits that last session we were bound hand 

and foot, that matters were so bad that only three classes of measures could be passed: 

1. Insignificant bills; 

Z. Bills the overwhelming necessity for which could command a twothirds vote; and • 

3. Bills passed by the grace of the Appropriations Committee. 

He says relief is desired from this difficulty, and the claim is made 

that the needed relief comes from the additional changes proposed, 

namely: 

1. A morning hour for committees; 

2. By depriving the committee of the power of annexing general 

legislation on appropriation bills; and 

3. Through this amendment. 

I can not agree with this claim. The whole question divides itself 

into the idea of, first, the one-man power; and, secondly, the distribution 

of responsihility. 

The difficulty with the present system is this: It gives power to the 

Committee on :Appropriations to crowd out other business, no matter 

how important, and to practically make the House take up what the 

chairman of that committee prefers, for no one wishes to antagonize or 

vote down appropriatio.n bills. They must be passed. 

The 1·eal diflitul ty will not be met by leaving the present power with 

the committee. The practice has grown up, on one pretext and another, to hold the bills over until such time as the committee from the 

actual situation of affairs holds the power. 

Two objections are made to the distribution of this power among the 

other existing committees: First, extramgance; second, the possibility 

of a combination of those committees being formed causing danger and 

del:l.y. Itisclaimed thatadividedresponsibilitywillincreaseexpenses; 

that the House in the Committee of the ·whole, with the ad vice of these 

committees, can not " cut the garment to the cloth." The fallacy 

·of this argument has been ably met by the gentleman from Michi~an. 

This is a reflection _upon the ability and good judgment of the Honse 

and the Representati-ves whom the people have chosen. 

The argument of the gentleman from Massachusetts that the combination of these committees will cause danger anti delay is easily met. 

If there is danger from the combination of several committees, how mnch 

more danger and delay may arise when the power is longed, as it now 

is, in one committee? 

It is urged in defense that other committees have d~spotic power. 

The Committee on Ways and Means and the Committee on Rules are 

cited. The former may possibly report one bill to Congress in a session, 

but the Appropriations Committee ha.s thirteen. That the Committee on 

Ru1es has great power a:b.d privileges is true, but it is also true that 

the duties of that committee have been so satisfactorily performed that 

nobody wishes to deprive them -of that power. 

However strong the arguments may seem, the real question at i ue 

remains, Shall the majority dictate practicn.llegislation, or by giY"ing 

thirteen appropriation bills to one committee practically place in the 

power of that committee, under the rult>.s, the control of legislation? 

The country wants the Hou c so to shape its rules that public matters shall as fur as po ible have a hearing and consideration. The report of the majority of the committee looks toward that end, and the 

recent >ote indicates that such action will be taken. This course is 

conservative, and meets the approval ofmanyofthe best and most experienced parliamen tarin.ns. . 

- The proposed amendment of the gentleman from Maine will not work 

practically and will not aid in the solution of the problem. These bills 

can not be prepared in the time he suggests, or if prepared would still 

lie over till late in the session. 

The real difficulty now is not so much that the appropriation bills 

are reported late as that the power practically residing in the committee 

when they are reported is liable to misuse. 

Mr. MORRISON; I demand the previous question. 

The SPEAKER. TheChairwishestoask the gentleman from Maine 

[.Mr. Mll.LIKEN] whether he desires a vote to be taken on his amendment as it was read at the desk, or whether be accepts the modifications 

proposed by the gentleman from New York [Mr. HISCOCK]. 

Mr. MILLIKEN. I have no objection to accepting the modifica.-

tions suggested by the gentleman from New York. 

Mr. CANNON. I ask my colleague [Ur. 1\IORRISO:N] before he insists upon the previous· question to allow me two minutes, if the gentleman from Maine accepts that modification. 

Mr. MORRISON. I will yield to my colleague for two minutes. 

The SPEAKER. The amendment as proposed to be modified will 

be read. • 

The Clet·k read as follows : 

Amend Rule XI by inserting the following: 

",50. It shall be the duty of the committee haYing jurisdiction of g'eneral ap- propriation bills to report the same within thirty days after the estimates are received." 

~fr. CANNON. I desire to say that with that modification gentlemen can see at once the foolishness of the proposed ru1e. It would 

either work great harm to the House, if enforce<l, or would stand a. dead letter. The general estimates for most of these bills are now in 

the document-room, and have been ever since the commencement of 

the session, and your thirty days will have expired almost before the 

committees are announced. I undertake to say that it is absolutely 

impo ible to do this thing. The deficiency bill, for example, can not 

be made ·up with any propriety in the l_png session before the 1st day -

of June or tho 1st day of July, because you do not know what deficiencies have to be provided for. · 

1\Ir. MILLIKEN and Mr. B.A.YNE rose. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Illinois has demanded the 

previous question. 

Mr. LOWRY. I ask the gentleman to withdraw his demand for a moment that I may offer an amendment. 

1\-fr. MORRISON. I do not want this proposition to be amended 

because I want the whole of it beaten. 

The previous question was ordered. 

The question being taken on Mr. UILLIKEN1S amendment, it wn.a not agreed to. 

Mr. LOWRY. I offer the amendment which I send to the desk. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

.Add the following pro vi o : "Pro-vided, That the committees having jurisdiction of appropriations shall re- port all general app1·opriation bills at the first session of Congress within sixty 

days and at the second session within forty days after the commencement of the respective ses ions." 

Mr. LOWRY. I have no disposition, especially in the present temper of the House, to enter upon any general discussion of this proposition, but I desire to call the attention of the House to the fact that 

the objection to the proposition of the gentleman from Maine [Mr. 

MILLIKEN] mainly lay, in my judgment, in the fact that it would have 

proven inoperative. Such has been the previous experience of this 

House, there having been in former Congresses a similar rule to that 

proposed by the gentleman from :Maine. 
328 CONGRESSIONAL· RECORD- . HOUSE. DECEMBER 18, 

By the terms of this proviso the exercise of the privilege of reporting at. any time is made conditional on tile committee having charge of 

general appropriation bills reporting in a given time. I am indifferent 

with reference to tile period of time that shall be prescribed in ihe 

CYent. of the House agreeing with me in the propriety of th~adoption 

of this amendment; but it does appear to me the experience of the 

House is to the effect that it is extremely desirable the appropriation 

bills shall be reported at such a period of the session as shall afford 

snfficient time lor their consideration. We all remember that some of 

the most important appropriation bi11s were reported at the very close 

of the last session of Congress. .And it would be mere repetition on my part to refer to the fact that has been so often referred to here, that 

when tho e bills were acted upon by this House but a very small proportion in numbers of members of this body' were cognizant of what was contained in the bill themselves. 

I might cite by way of illustration some instances of the effect of reporting bills at that late period, but I will not extend the discussion. 

Either the entire membership of this House must see the desirability 

of ha,Ying such a provision in. erted in connection with this amendment or they runst be satisfied tl1at nuder thechangesofthe rules that have 

been already provided for the difficulty will no longer exist. 

~lr. MOHRISO~. I dema.nd the previous question. 

The previous question was ordered. 

The question being taken on agreeing to Llr. LOWRY's amendment, 

there were-ayes 10, noes not counted. 

So the amendment was not agreed to. 

ME SAGE FRO!ll THE SE.~ATE. 

A message from the Senate, by lir. 1\IcCooK, its Secretary, informed 

the Honse that the Senate hnrl p::tssed bills of the following titles; in 

whi~;h tbe concurrence of the House was requested: 

A hill (S. 126) to clmnge the name of the National Bank of Winona; 

A bill (8. 3:l5) to provide fur protecting the interests of the United 

StatC'. in the Potomac River Flats in the District of Columbia; and 

A uiH (~. il82) to au~horize the Merchants' Nationn.l Bank of Little 

Tiock, A.rk., to change its name to th~ First National Bank of Little 

Hock. 

The m<: age also announced that the Senate had passed, with an alliPndruent, in which the concurrence of the House was r~qnested, the 

joint resolution (H. Res. 1) authorizing the Secretary of the Interior to 

n!<e a. portion of the contingent fund to fit up rooms for the Commissioner of Patents. . -· 

The message further announced that the Senate had passed a resolution, in which the concurrence of the Honse was requested, for printing 

the report .of tests of iron and steel and other materials for industrial 

purposes made at the Watertown arsenal and transmitted to the Senate by the Secretary of War. 

THE RULES. 

l\1r. WEAVER, of Nebraska. I desire to call up the amendment 

which I sent up last eveniilg, and which is printed in the RECORD. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

In line 239, after the word "harbors," insert the words "the Committee on Commerce, bills for the regulation of interstat-e commerce." 

Mr. WEAVER, of Nebraska. Mr. Speaker, no committee, in my 

judgment, should have greater privilege to have speedily considered 

any bill that may be presented by it than the Committee on Commerce, 

such bills as haYefor their object the regulation of interstate commerce. There is no kind of legitimate business in the United States the prosperity, stability, and character of which would not be greatly improved 

and rest upon a more permanent basis if some honest, wholesome, and 

well-considered legislation could be had at the hands of the Congress 

of the United States regulating railroad transportation. Foreign commerce sinks into insignificance when compared with the interstate com- merce carried on through the railroad system of the United States. 

.All our foreign commerce exports and imports amounts annually to 

only one thousand five hundred millions, while our internal commerce 

amounts to fifteen thousand millions of dollars. 

We may build the Hennepin Canal and improve the navigable rivers 

and continue to make an annual expenditure of from fifteen ~ twenty 

million dollars a year for the benefit of commerce, yet it will remain a fact that nine-tenths of all commercial business will continue to be done 

by the railroads; aml so long as the Congress of the United States, the 

only power that can regulate commerce between the States, shall delay 

action in this important matter so long will it continue to be a fact that a few of the great railroad managers of this country are exercising more power in levying and collecting taxes from the industries of this country 

than Congress and all the State Legisla.tures combined. 

No regularity in these assessments, like assessments and taxes levied 

and collected according to law. Think of it-a power resting in the 

hands of a few men to say, at any time without notice or other com1ition save the will of the managers of the trunk line , that charges for 

carrying a bushel of grain to the market shall be acl vanced 2, 3, or 5 

cents per bushel, not because it costs or is worth more to carry the grain 

after than before the advance of rates, but because they can do these 

things :1.rbitrnrily and without notice and without reason, and sometimes because of capitalization of increased values, which means water, which water is, under what is known as good management, re- quired to make the same return as the honest capital which has gone 

into the enterprise. 

Mr. Speaker, at the last session of the Forty-eighth Congress the 

United States Senate appointed a committee to investigate the subject of interstate commerce and make report at the present session. I 

have not yet seen the report, but am in the possession of the answer of 

F. B. Thurber, of New York, to certain questions propounded by the 

committee, and as the answer of Mr. Thurber touching "the reason- ableness of the rates now charged by such corporations for local and 

through traffic" is so .comprehensive and shows so fully the system of 

overcapitalization whereby dividends are paid upon watered stock, 

which capitalization and the dividends are extorted fron honest industries-! say that the answer of Mr. Thurber is so comprehensive and 

yet sq brief upon this and kindred subjects that I ask that the same 

be read and printed in the RECORD. • 

To the honorable the &/.ect Committee of the United States Senate on Interstate Com- 'l'llerce: 

Referring to lhe que tions contained in your circular of April10, the undersigned respectfully submils the following views bearing upon this subject, and as far as possible in the order of the subdivisions therein contained: " 1. .As regards 'the best method of preventing the practice of extortion and 

unjust discrimination by corporations engaged in interstate commerce.'" 

'Ve need first a specific prohibition of practices generally admitted to be wrong, together with an executive t-o see that the Jaws are executed. Laws without a police force, or a police force without laws, are equally useless. "2. As to 'lhe rea onableness of the rates now charged by such corporations 

for local and through traffic.'" . Rates ns a whole on interstate traffic are now lower than ever before and in some cases unreasonably low, but in certain sections, and on certain kinds of 

lrailic, rotes are till excessive and unjust di cl'iminations pervade the entire sy. tem. · In considering the subject, "What is a reasonahie rn.te?" we are constantly 

brought face to face with perhaps the greatest. difficulty and one of the greate t wrongs connected with the whole subject, namely, fictitious capitalization. 

Profes. ional promoters have o\·erloaded our railway sy~;tem with wale red stock, 

and have imJ>osed upon the practical railway men of this country, who operate these great highways, the impossible task of earning dividends upon this mass of fictitious capitnl and. at the same time satisfyin~ the public. !laving thus 

o\·ercnpitnlized our transportation system they endeavored by combination to enfor·ce rates which would yield dividends upon the entire mass of capital. Th is in turn bas timulatcd the building of parallel lines, which in many cases were not needed, anti iu times of commercial depre ion like the present their 

pools and co~bir:ations brenk d ·'Yn and they, appeal to the nationa.J Govern- ment for legtslatton to enforce thetr agreements upon each other anti enable 

them to tax the commerce of the country to su tain the e fictitious vulues. A good illustration of how excessive capitalization operates as a morlgnge npon the industry of lhe country, and as a machinery for concentrating wealth 

in few hands wherever the power exists to impo e rates for transportation 

which win yield dh-idends on watered stock, i found in tbe following table, 

showing what the dividends have amouuted to (with interest compounded an- nually) on the $47,000,000 of watered stock put into the New York Ceutral and 

Hudson River Railroad in 1867-'68 by the Vanderbilt management: 

Watered stock issued in 1867 and 1863 by the New York Central and Hudson River Railroad, $!7,000,000. 

Dividend on this watered stock at 8 per cent. for the year 1869, ~,760,000 

{1869). Interest on 1869 dividend at 7 per cent., t-263,000; wilh 1870 djvidend, S3,7GO,OOO, 

$7,783,000 (1870). Interest on &7,783,000 at 7 per cent., $544,000; wilh 18ll dividend, $3,760,000, 

$12,087,000 (1871). Interest on 12,087,000 at 7 per cent., SS-16,000; with 1872 dividend, $3,760,000, $16,693,000 (1872). Interest on 16,693,000, at 7 per cent., $1,168,000; with 1873 dividend, $3,760,000, $21,621,000 (1873). . Interest on $21,621,000 at 7 per cent., $1,513,000; witb 1874 dividend, $3,760,000, $26,8'J4.,000 (1874.). . Interest on 526,694,000 at 7 per cent., 11,882,000; with 1875 dividend, $3,760,000, 

$32,536,000 (1875). . Interest on $32,536,000 at 7 per cent., $2,277,000; with 1876 dividend, $3,760,000, 

$38,573,000 (1876). Interest on $38,573,000 at 7 per cent., $2,700,000; with 1877 dividend, $3,760,000, 

$45,033,000 (1877). Interest on 845,033,000 at 7 per cent., $3,152,000; with 1878 dividend, $3,760,000, $51,945,000 (1878). . . Interest on $'>1,945,000 at 7 per cent., $3,666,000; with 1879 dividend, $3,760,000, 

$59,3-!1,000 (1879). Interest on $'>!>,341,000 at 7 per cent., $4.,153,000; with 1880 dividend, $3,760,000, 

$67,254,000 (1880) . Int-erest on 1:67,254,000 at 6 per cent., $!,035,000; with 1881 dividend, $3,760,000, 

$75,04.9,000 (1881). . Interest on $75,049,000 at 6 per cent., $1,502,000; with 1882 dividend, $3,7GO,OOO, 

$83,311,000 (1882). Interest on ,.83,3ll,OOO at 6 per cent.,~ :>:> ,000; with 1883 dividend, $3,760,000, 

$92,069,000 (1883). Int-erest on 592,070,000 at 6 per cent., $.3,5:!l,<Y-l:>; with 1884dividend, *$3,525,000, 

$1.01,118,000 (1884). In other words, if the capital had been maintained at the amount then out- standing, and the rates for transportation had been reduced to a point which 

would only have yielded the same dividends upon the capital then existing 

(which, by he way, had been prcviou l.v hugely watered), the public would 

have been about $100,000,000 richer, and l\11-. Vtmderbilt and his associates $100,-

000,000 poorer, and this represenL,; the results for but sixteen years and upon a single road. · It was, of course, claimed that lis is watering of stock was but a capitalization 

of increased \'alues, but if this railroa.l had. been owned by he State no such 

proceeding would have taken place, at11i ~1Ir. Vanderbilt's own defiuilion of the 

relations which should exist between the State and railroads (hereafter quoted from lJis communication to the H e:•! llt"t committee) shows the wrongfulness of 

such cavitalization. The Baltimot·..: nnd Ohio Railroad furnislles a good illu - tration of 1\ difl'erent policy. It h >t;; l'X.lded enormous sums from the public in excess of liberal dividends, and emplo:;l·d them in extending and improving its 

*In 1884 the rate of dividend W:l~ reduced to n per cent., which on the 

$47,000,000 of wat~r amounts to but .;-!.525,000 instead of $3,760,000, which is the amount at the rate of 8 per cent.; and in 1835 the dividend, owing to the compe- tition of the 'Vest Shore Railroad, has been still further reduced. 
1885. CONGRESS! ON AL RECORD- HOUSE. 329 

road, but it has not capitalized this increase of value, and the estimated value e>f its "surplus" now exceeds $47,000,000. In other words, it has exacted from the public the capital necessary for an enormous extension of its lines, but it has bad the decency not to capitalize this sum and m a ke the people pay dividends upon their own capital thus exn ted. Railroad men claim that rates bear no relation to capitalization. I admit that where they are go,·erned by competi- tion they do not, and this is why I so strenuously advocate holding fast to the sheet-an<.'hor of competition, because witholl_t it. the railroad companies would 

practically own the country. Indeed, it would be better than ownership, for with the ma.chinery of Government in Yoked to sustain rates whil'h would pay dividends upon a fictitious capitalization they would be able to tax most of the profit out of production and commerce without the trouble or responsibility of ownership. 

In view of this immense overcapitalization of our entire railroad system, we should consider with great caution a ny proposition which would confer the power upon existing railroad corporations to enforce mtes which would yield 

Falisfa.ctory dividends to them, a s it would necessarily impose corresponding burdens upon the industries of the <.'ount.I·y. Again, the c9st of constructing rail- ways has declined enormously in many respects, and it is hard to see why the owners of railrt>ad property shouid be allowed to continue to make profits base::l npon the original cost of their property when owners of other property have to 

base their charges upon present values. 1.'his is illustrated by the following letter which appear d in the New York Tribune of March 3,1885: 

RE TRI CT!O~ OF OMJ'ETITIO~. 

" To the editor of the '1'1-ibunc : 

"Srn : I see that your columns are open to the ' no competition ' railioad peo- ple, and thinking you might be able to assist me, I presen t my case. "1 am the only retail d ealer in drugs and medicines in this place, and have been in business for almost twenty yea rs. I am a good eitizen, keep sober, pay my taxes, and endeavor to support our little church in order that the cause of the Lord may sprea.:l anrl tlnnris h. The stock of goods in my store has cost me about $20.0:>0 (thoug h I fra nk ly admit it could to-day be replaced for less than $10 000): A few days agn a stranger caine to our little town and looked around a while and then w ent a way. To·da y he returned. and I find he has bought a sto.re and put in n stoc!.:: o f d l"Ug'. {a bo ut $l0,000 worth, and it is as good as mine, 

which cost $'>~,O :J0), and openly announces that he will • run me out. ' Now what I want you to do is this: Present a bill to the Legislature a nd get them to restrictcompet itio:J in reg a rd to dru:::-stores; and , p !case you, l'rir. Editor, get the bill passed as !"Onu a <> p o sihle, for the welfare of myself and fam ily and of the little church depends upon it. I think the action of that opponent of mine is an outrage on veste <l ri6hts. (H e is · a common, mise rable thief.' lie doesn't pay as large a tax a <> I do, be bas no fam ily to S\}pport as I b a ve, and, worst of alJ, be never g '>C3 to c!larch. · "JONATHAN WIFFLETREE. "Deacon in the Church. "PU:IIPKl:SYlLLE, N.Y., Feb. :!6, 1885." 

I r our railroad system hnd not been thus oycrcapitalized it might, and probal>ly would, be expedient to legalize pooling contra('ts and establish a system of maximum and minimum rates which would be fail· alike to the public and to the rail roads. No one cnn deny. or wishes to deny, the great bcnel)ts conferred upon the hum:1n race by the iuYentors who have gin•n us these modern high· ways, but it is th e inventors, and not the finaneial freebooters who have ob- tained control of them, that nrc entitled to onr thanks. In sections where the law of colllpctition does not '''ork-n.nd this is true of most l~al traffic, and of through tmflic in large ·ectionsof our country-excessiYe and unequal charges 

ba\·e been arbitrarily levied , and the carrier, always an importantfa.ctor in com- merce, bas absorbed lhe p1·o!its aurl substance alike of the producer, lhe shipper, and the consumer. ~evc1· in the history of the world have we seen such enor- mous accumulations of wea!th suddeuly acquired by any class as we have seen in this counh·y during the ln..<•t quarte r of a century ~hrough the canier thus taxing all other classes in the community. \Vithin twenty-five years the Van- derbilt- estate has grown fwm $5,000,000 to over.$".!00,000,000. Within the same time the Central Pacific qnartet have, it is estimated, cxtorterl fmm the public more than $250,000.000. 'l'wenty-fiye years. ago Jay Gould wns not rated CV<'n as a single millionaire. 'Vithin two years he exhibited to an P.dLDiring group of \Vall street friends railroad securities estimated worth from $50,000,000 to ii5,000,000, and. it was announced that this was only 11 portion of his ga.ins. The men connected. with. our tra nsportation system who arc rated at SLO,OOO,OOO and upward are too numerous lo mention, and by far the greater portion of this bas been accumulated within twen ty yea1-s. Yet raiJroad men, when confronted with these facts, meet them with lhe assertion that rates are reasonable; that the transportation of this country is done cheaper than any other country in tbe world, and that n. majority of all the railroads of the country are unre- munerative to their owners. It is true that wherever w·ater competition pre- vails rates are reasonable, and, fortunately for tlie people of the United States, a large portion of our country is thus favored. It is also true that, where excess- ive rates have unduly stimulated the building of competing lines of railroad, for a time excessive competition has resulted in unreasonably low rates, but this has usually been followed by_combination, witb an advance in rates to the other extreme. This brings us to the consideration of question 3: ''.Whether publicity of rates should by 1·equired by law; whether changes of rates without public notice should be prohibited, and the best method of secur- ing uniformity and stability of rates." I am of the opinion that publicity of rates should in aU cases be required by 

law; that changes should not be permitted without reasonable public notice; and that these requirements would be the best. methods of securing uniform- ity, if not stability, of rates. Both of these provisions were prominent fea~ 

urea in the Reagan bill, but were opposed by the railroads as impracticable because it wasalledged that they would give an undue advantage to Canadian 

lines, but, like most of the railroad arguments in dealing with the public, this was specious and misleading, for the reason that our railroads would still pos- sess and exercise the same power over Canadian lines to prevent the cutting of rates which they now possess, namely, the fear of retaliation, which is con- stantly exercised by railroad lines in forcing competitors to observe an agreed s:ibednle. Where one road cuts under an agreed schedule it is the custom of an- other road to at once reduce rates so low that the cutting road is forced sooner or later to restore and live up to the schedule of rates. and the American roads could hold this whip over. their Canadian rivals as well after the passage of such a law as before, the only difference being that if fiye days' notice should be required of American roads before a change of rates they would be at a disad- •lantage for that period only. • · 4. • The advisability of establisiuhg a system of maximum and minimum rates for the transportation of interstate commerce." I do not think that this is advisable or practicable at present. The various States within their borders can regulate their local rates in this manner with suc-- cess, as has been shown by the experience of the State of Georgia. But, for the present, I do not think this necessary on interstate commerce. Our water lines, if p1·operly sustained and de\·eloped, will do much to secure reasonable rates over a large extent of our territory; and if pooling combinations are prohibited there will be but lit.Ue necessity for fixing a maximum, while in or(Jer to give railroads the remedy of retaliation mentioned in the previous section it wol'lld not be adl'iAAble to fix a. minimum rate. 

"5. The elements of cost, the conditions of business, and the other factors that should be considered in fixing the tariffs on interstate traffic." This is answered by the discussion of the preceding section. "6. Should any system of rebates and drawbacks be allowed; if so, sbonld such transactions be regulated by law and subject to official inspection or ap- proval, or should they be entirely prohibited?" . I believe that they should be entirely prohibited. Publicity of rates would be of little use if they could be nullified by secret agreements, and there would be no occasion for sacret agreements if all ra.ilroad3 doing a.n inte1·state business were required to obsen·e their public tariff of rates. Under present conditions I would leave ra ilroads free to m ake any tariff they choose, with the qualifica- tion U1at their rates should be reasonable and public, and for substantially- a like service the same to all. In the e\·ent of an unreasonable rate being charged, power should be lodged with a board of commissioners or elsewhere to, upon proper application, reduce said rate. Rebates are now the favorite form of dis- crimination and should be entirely prohibited. "7. Should pooling contracts and a~n·ements betwec11 railroads doing an ::-- terstate business be permitted, or should the be entirely prohibited by law? It 

they should be regu lated by law. would it e sufficient to require the terms of such agreements to be made public and subject to officia.l a pproval?" I belieYe that pooling contracts should be entirely prohibited, but r a ilroads would naturally agree 11pon the public tariff bet-ween common points. These tariffs might be made subject to the appro\·al of a board of commissioners, as the French railroad tariffs are made subject to the appro,·al of the minister of public works ; but they should not be m ade legally bin<iing, becaus e in that case the freedom to nmke iower pub1ic rates, which is now a safeguard a;;ainst 

extortion, would be abridged or abrogated. Railroad men now e.xcuse pooling contracts by claiming that they prevent discrimination ns between shippers; · but this object would be reached by compelling railroads, under adequate pen- alties, to observe their public rates. This was well provided for in the Reagan 

bill. . "8. Should provision be made by law to secure to shippe1-s the right to select tbe lines and parts of lines over which their shipments shou d be transported?" 

Unquestionably. This is one of the rights of the shipper which the carrier has arbitrarily overridden. . "9. By wha t me thod can a uniform system of rates for the transportation of passengers and fre ights by all corporations engaged in interstate comme rce be be~<t secured ? " By publicity of rates and holding all roads to a rigid observance of same as· h e reinbefore advocated. " 10. Should corporations engaged in interstate commerce be permitted . to charge a lower proportionate rate for a long than for a short haul? Does the public interest require any legislation on that subject?" I think that raih-oads should be permitted to charge a lower proportionate r:ttc for a long than for a short haul, but that this should not be carried so far ns to charge more for a shorter than for a longerdistance in the same direction. Railroad men plausibly argue that where water competition exists they should be permitted to do this, but as in other matters there must be some principle of a ction established , and the occasional hardships which would be experienced nnder this ru le should not be permitted to justify the serious evils which ba>e h ('retofore existed from this cause. As for instance, where points in Utah and · cvada,500 or 1,000 miles this side of San Francisco, were charged double the rat es that were charged for hauling goods through to Sn.n Francisco. The theory upon which this was done was, they were charged the through rate to San Francisco and the local rate from Sun Francisco back to their destination, 

although in point of fact this work was not done, and there is no rule of law by 

which a common carrier ca.n justly be permitted to do such things. In the past it has been generally conceded that rail mad companies ought to be allowed to charge as much more for the transportation of small shipments as it cost them more to transport such shipments compru·ed with larger ones, but there is another'Yicw to this question 'vhich bas great weight. A milroad is both n. public highway and a common carrier, doing business by virtue of a public franchise, in granLi n;,r which tl1e vote of the small shipper was as potent as that of the large shipper, and therefore the right of a. citizen on the highway comes in to limit the operation of tbe law of wholesale and retail which applies in private tmnsactions. The railroads nrc performing a. dele- gated function of the State, anrl, in my opinion, should be required to act to- ward shippers ns the State would act. Upon this point the views of 1\11-. 'Vill- iam H. Vanderbilt, of the New York Central, and 1\Ir. Jewett, late presi1lent of the.Erie road. as expressed in a letter to the Hepburn legislative committee, are important. They say (see testimony, volume I, page 37): · "That it is the primary duty of the State to furnish • highways,' whether 

they be the road, the canal, the turnpike, or the railroad, the State alone having the right of • eminent domain.' . • "That this duty has been complied with by the State in most of these ways. "That, for prudential and other reasons, the State of New York preferred to engage the serYices and capital of her citizens to do what was her duty to do, 

granting them certain powers under certain limitations and restrictions, which are made part of the con tract between these 'citizens' and the State. "Tbe State places such 'citizens' in her place to perform her duties, and for this purpose clothes them with the imperial right of ·eminent domain ' so far as may be required to perform the duty devolving upon them. 

"Such 'citizen3' so plac~:l ha.ve a right to the fullest protection of the State, and to be protected against any I a ws that lhe State would not pass if such property of • citizens' had been built. by the State itself, and further, such • cit.i- zens' should be protected against any legisll\tion that would lessen the value of property so obtained by its • citizens' by reason of their contract with -and their willingness to take the pla.ce of the State in the pel"formance of one of its highest duties. "The rail way company thus holds, in its relation to the State: "First. Its position asasubstitute for the State under the powers and limita- tions of the law; and "Second. The right of pecuniary recompense and of ample protection of property . .. The writers of the (cilizens') addre!!S look upon the railway oompany as for pecuniary profit only, and ignore their position as created t-o perform the duty of the State, taking therisksofinvestments, ofmanagement, &c .. upon themselves. The railroad companies thus have a higher claim than the ordinary corporation can have upon the State. • · •· The ordina.ry corporation is organized for the special pecuniary profit of its shareholders, the profit of the public being secondary. The railway corporation is organized primarily for the benefit of the people of the State, and tbe pecnni- a.ry consideration is secondary, but necessary to induce the citizens of the State to assume the performance of the duty of the State. This assertion is true, and is in the essence of the grant by the State of its powers." The same gentlemen, in their testimony before the liepburn committee, advo- cated that a car-load should be the unit beyond which no lower rate should be made, and 1\Ir. Albert Fink, the pool commissioner, testified before the same com- mittee as follows (see report, page 65) : "It is sometimes urged that railroad companies should grant lower rates on large shipments upon the same principle that whole.<oale merchants can sell cheaper than retail merchants. 1.'he same reasons why wholesale merchants can sell cheaper than retail me1·chants do not apply to the case of large or small shipments on railroads, when we have reference merely to car-load ship- ments. The cost of retailing merchandise is mucb greate r than the cost of sell-
330 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. DECEl\ffiER 18, 

ing it in large quantities. It requires a different kind of an establishment, 

larger warehouses in comparison with the goods stored, more clerks, longer time to seU the same quantity of goods, slower returns, &c. '·'In theca e of shipments on railroads in less than car-loads, the cost will be greater than full car-load shipments-not always, but as a. rule. Cars can not be fuUy loaded when o. number of small shipments are made, which ho.ve to be unlo:1ded at different stations. After unloading one hipment at an interme- diate station the train l.J.as to proceed with the smaller load, but without reduc- ing expenses in proportion. It is therefore proper that the shipper should pay the additional cost. There is good ground for discriminating between small and large shipments. But when shipments are made by the car-load, where it is merely a question of one or more car-loads, no additional cost is incurred by the railroad company. "\Vhether the e shipments are made by one or by many shippers, U costs the same. It co ts no more to ship car-loads of freight between two stations of a railroad whether they belong to_one shipper or to ten shippers, whether one man ship ten· car-loads or ten men ship one car-load each. There is no ground for dis01i.minating in favor of the lar shipper. Any discrimination made in his favor is entirely arbitrary. "There is no rule, no principle on which it can be established or defended. All arbilrary discrimination works injustice to others. "'l'ake a flour-miU producing ten cnr-loads of flour a day, and alongside of it at tb3 same tation a mill producing only a car-load. The railroad company decides that it ~ive to the larger mill a rebate of 25 cents a barrel. This of itself con titutes a frur profit. "'!'he large miU can unde1 ell the smaU mill in any market in which they are competitors. It can sell at cost and make 25 cents per barrel profit, when the other mill, if itwnntsto sell at all, must sell without any profit at all. This leads to breaking up of the small establishment, and the railroad company is the in- strument through which it is accomplished. "A common carrier has no right to make itself a party to such transactions. Moreover, it i not to its advantage to do so. This policy of discrimination pre- vents the employment of small ropital, and prevents the build~ up by slow de- grees the indu tries of the country. Only large capitalists can afford to carry on busines , and they are not always to be found. From smaU beginnings, if prop- erly fostered, large enterprises are bu.ilt up. The larger manufacturers enjoy 

already sufficient advantages over the smaller. Being able to produce cheaper, . they do not require the aid of railroad companies to still further discriminate in their favor." Also at page 155 of-the exhibits: "The p~actice of making special contracts with some shippers-the larger 

shippers generally-at lower than regular rates, and charging the regular rates to all other shippers, constitutes one of the most nnju t discriminations. It is practiced to a great extent. The rates of transportation between two points should be the ame to all shippers. "'l'he payment of rebates, or drnwbacks, by which means their unjust dis- criminations are practiced, should be forbidden." It will be noticed that Mr. Fink advocates a distinction between car-load rates and those of smaller quantities, but in practice the west-bound pool for several yeard, while able to enforce its mandates, made no distinction between car-load shipments and smaller quantities. It is evident that it costs but little, if any, more for a car-load of freight composed of a dozen different shipments going to the same place than if composed of but one shipment, and the public certainly undl!r such circumstances ought to have the benefit of the aggregat~ thus shipped. While it may seem just that parts of car-loads should pay more than fu 11 em·-loads, yet the Government in transporting the mails carries a. single let- ter fur one citizen at the same rate it charges tor carrying one thousand letters for anothercit.izen. It is probable that if the State was the carrier, as suggested 

by l\I rs. Vanderbilt and Jewett, the same rule would be observed, and the practice of the west-bound pool show that when it suits their convenience rail- I·oads can and do operate upon this principle. It is the departure from this principle which has built up most of the commercial monopolies in this country. The Standard Oil Company is .a case in point, of which the Hepburn committee say in their report, page 42: "Your committee were unable to ascertain the exact relations pfthese differ- ent organizations, owing to the refusal of several members of the Standard Oil Company subprenaed as witnesses to obey the subprena, and the refusal of those who did attend to answer our questions; but succeeded in establishing the fact that 90or 95per cent. of all the refiners of the country act in' harmony' with the Staudard Oil Company, and that they shi-p 95 per cent. of all the oil of the coun- try; and, of course, the three and a half miUions capital of the Standard is but an insignifiront portion of the aggregate capital of this mysterious organization, whose bu iness and transactions are of such a character that its members de- clined giving a history or description of it, lest their testimony be used to con- . viet- them of a crime. {See testimony of Messrs. Bostwick" Archbold, Rogers, 

&c)." . The great coal companies furnish similar illustrations. Our forefathers abol- i hed the laws of primogeniture and entail in order to prevent the evil of large accumulation of wealth in few hands. As railroads have been operated in the ps.st, they have been the most potent force to nullify this principle, which I be- lie,·e to be a beneficial one, and which should be foUowed as far as possible. There should be no concessions aUowed to large shippers, except such as repre- sent the actual difference in expense in handling large shipments. Certainly no higher limit should be established than the unit of a. car-load, as mentioned by 11·. Fink, and I believe that the welfare, both of the public and the railroads, would be ultimRtely subserved if rates were made uniform without regard to quaRtity. But if any concessions are made, there should be none beyond the car- load unit, and nll such concessions should be as public as the rates themselves. "12. Should corporations engaged in interstate commerce be required to adoot a uniform system of accounts?" Within certain limits I believe they should, but that these limits should be prescribed by the commission hereinafter mentioned, and the same answer ap- plies to que tion 13, as to annual reports to the Government, which should un- doubtedly be required. "14. In making provisions for securing cheap transportation, is it or is it not important that the Government should develop and maintain a system of water route ?" It is of U1e greatest importance, and this is perhaps more forcibly illustrated by the following quotation from the report of the Hepburn committee: "New York possesses t-he key to the situation in the Erie Canal. While t}Je committee made no attempt to investigate the relation of the railroads to the canal, and sought to lessen their labors by avoiding this question, the canal, like Banquo's gho t, would not down; we were compelled to meet it at every point and turn of the investigation. The cost of water transportation from Chicago to New York i the base line upon which railroad rates are determined and fixed throughout the country. The rates, by agreement of the principal railroads of the country, from aU points in the West to the seaboard, are ma.dea certain per- centage of the Chicago rate (testimony, pages 3001--3004}. Thus Cincinnati is frl per cent. of the Chicago rate; Saint Louis, 116 per cent.; Kansas City, 14.6 per cent.; Loui ville, 9G per cent.; Cleveland, 736- per cent., etc. There remains for the railroads to do this additional act of justice and see tha.t the rates from points in the State of New York to the city ofNewYork aremadeaproperpercentage of the Chicago rate." . 1\fr. Blancllard (testimony, page 2840} says: · •• The State holds within its grasp the great controller of the freight rate within 

its borders, to wit, the canal ; there is not a town that is not affected more or less within this whole State, from the extreme northeast to the extreme south- west corner of it, by the canal policy and rates of this State." "Mr. Fink, a. recognized authority on railroad matter , testifies (te timony, page 530) that whenever a reduction is made in the rail rate from Chicago to New York, occasioned by lake and canal competition, that that 1·eduction ex- tends t{) Louisville, Nashville, and Savannah. "It extends to every part of the country, I might say; to-day, when they 

charge 10 cents or 12 cents a bun<lred from Chicago to New York, the teanJ- ship lines from here to Savannah take up that freight and carry it for 15 cents from here t{) Savanvah, making a rate from Chicago to Savannah of 25 cents; the regular rate from Chicago to Savannuh by railroads may be at the same tfme 50, 60, 70, or SO cents; they have to come down and conform to the wateL· rate; the rate in Savannah determines again the rate in Atlanta; Atlanta. is perhaps the most interior of all towns in the country, and generally gets the highest rates on that account; they carry their freight for nothing, from Chicago toN ew York almost, and then from here by water to Savannah, and then carry the short dis- tance from San1nnah up to Atlanta. themselves-thn.t is 200 miles-and the other rail lines that work from Chicago to Nashville, Loui ville, Chattanooga, and At- lanta, have simply to conform to the rates that the steamship lines and the rail lines from Chicago and New York make; thus the lake navigation and canal navigation regulate the rates of the whole country, you may say, from Canada down to the Gulf." "1\Ir. Vanderbilt, in his testimony, attached equal importance to 'he canal and regarded it as an important factor in the commerce· of the State and country. "The maintenance of our trunk canal shonld engage the earnest solicitude of the State. Nothing could be more prejudiciAl to the interestsofi.he city of New York, or the State as a whole, than to permit their efficiency to be impaired or their usefulness compromised." The wate'r lines are, I may saY. the salvation of this country, and should be developed and extended in every possible way. While enormous improve- ments have been made in railroad transportation during the pnst twenty years, little or no improvements have been made in our system of American water ways. Steel rails, more powerfullocomotives, improved freight cars which will carry two tons of paying freight for each ton of dead weight in rolling stock. as against the old rule of ton for ton; imprpved methods of handling freight, im- proved signals and labor-saving appliAnces in every department of railroad op- eration, haye enormously reduced the cost of railroad transportation durin1r the past two decades, while little or nothing has been done to improve our sy tern of water ways. 'l'bis is, doubtless, largely to be attributed to the adverse influ- ence of railroad corporations in legislation. In Pennsylvania and other States they have bought up the canals and abolished them, "\Vhenever a river and harbor bill is pending in Congress the railroad representatives will vote mill- ions for improvements which do not materiaUy affect them, but when it comes to an item like the Hennepin Canal. which promises to be of value in extend- ing our system of water ways, the railroad representatives, whet.her Democrats or Republicans, are found voting solidly against it. Can there be any better il- lustration of the necessity for -the people to insist upon the extension and im- provement of our country's water ways? France has just entered upon the con- struction of a comprehensive system of canals designed to furnish water compe- tition to the chief sections of that country. In England, where the canals have been largely .bought up by the railways and dwarfed or closed, as has been done to some extent in this country, the principal commercial organizations are now advocating the re-e 1Ablishment of the canals, on an improved basis, as a check upon raUroadextortion. Our canals, connecting the great lakes with the ocean, which are really national highways, ought to be as much a. recipient of the na- tional bounty as the isolated lrout streams, bayou~\ and petty harbors for which liberal appropriations are provided each year in tne river and harbor bill. A comprehensive system of improving our principal waterways should be under- taken upon a scale which will enable steam. the great motive power of the world, to be advantageously used, and thus reduce the co tofwater transporta- tion in the same proportion that the same motor has reduced the cost of tra.n - portation on land. If France can expend $300.000,000 in con tructing a system of canals, bow much better can the United States afford to undertake the arne work? 

"15. In what manner can legislation for the regulation of interstate commerce be best enforced? Should a commission, or other State tribunal, be established to carry out the provisions of any law Congress may enact?" Undoubtedly such a.· tribunal should be established. I can not better empha- size this than by the following extract from the report of the railroad commis- sion of the State of Georgia for the year 1881, which says: "Prior to the act of 187!J the common-law right of the citizen to be protected 

against extortion and unjust discrimination existed in its fuU force; but the rem- edy for its violation was wholly inadequate. Practically the citizen had no ·rights, though his theoretical right was ample and complete. "T-he rights of the railroad companies were well defined enough, and their remedies also were adequate, being in their own hands. It was their capacity for abusing their powers which was not snfficiently held in check. " The remedies of the ci-tizen.-In the -.ery nature of the case, the citizen stood at such a disadvantage thathisrightsweremerelynominal. To illustrate: Sup- pose him to receive a package on which the actualfreightcharge was Sl.50,while a. just and reasonable rate would be but$1. What could he do? Usually he could not wait, but must pay the $L50 under protest-and bring suit afterward, if he thought it worth his while for the half-dollar overcharge. But could he afford to do this? His interest in the matter would not warrant the expense-the 

costs, fees, witnesses, the discussion of the principles and facts involve~ ns to what rate would be reasonable and just in the particular ca e. And only the one case would be ettled after aU. The next day a parcel would be charged 75 ents, worth but 50, and the 25 cents would involve a new suit. Practically he was obliged to submit. Were it a. m01·chant who overcharged him, he would transfer his trade to another house. But in dealing with the railroad he is dealing usually with a monopoly, unless at a competing point-and now even at such a point by reason of pooling-and so he was remediles . A litig-ation would usually settle but a single case-one clas , one distance-scarcely any principle at all. "Such was the attitude of the citizen. Consider next the attitude of the ra.il- road prior to the act of 1879. "It had a large interest in results. Instead of 50 cents multiplied by 1 (the citizens' interest), the railroad had 50 cents multiplied by1,000 orlOO,OOO as its in- terest. n would have also ample experience, and the best legal talent already en~ed and trained, and waiting, and all the experts favorably inclined. ' So unequally were the parties matched, that in the whole history of the State there has been (so far as we remember) not one single case of a suit by a citizen to enforce this common-law right-and but one to enforce even a statu- tory right for an overcharge. In that case the charter of the railroad, in express terms, limited the rates, yet the railroad fixed its rates beyond the chartered limit-printed them and collected them, and was checked by this suit. "A remarkable commentary on the absolute worthlessness of rights without remedies. '' The consciousness of tb is huge disparity between the parties is the great re.c'l.- son why juries lean toward the weaker side. Notwith tanding all thi , bow- ever-unless the sum involved was large, say a suit for life or limb or injuJ.·y- the party aggrieved would not enter into so formidable a. controversy, even wit.h .the sympathy of the jury in his favor. "Indeed the case was not prepared for jury trial. As well turn a. jury lvosc 
1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 331 

into a great pile of copartnership or bank books t~ strike a balance, as into the complex principles and f~i;l.volved in rates of freight without some report like that of a master in chancery as the basis of decision. Now all this has been in large measure remedieu by the act of 1879, and adequate provision made also for such a repm·t, so that the parties can stand on a level. 

"JAl\IES M. Sl\IITH, ''CAMPBELL WALLACE, "SAMUEL B.AIU.""ETT, •· Commissioners. "R. A. BACON, Secretary." 

Y out· committee ,vill., I am sure, pardon me for the extensive q notations I have made from various authorities, and especially from the report of the Hepburn committee. This committee, appointed by the Legislature of New York in ]8i9, ·occupied nearly eight months in a thorough examination of the subject undm· consideration, taking some five thousand pages of testimony, and their report is genemlly acknowledged to be one of the ablest presentations of this difficuit subject which has yet been placed before the public. 'Vhile it was only instituted for the purpose of d efining the relations between the railways of our own State and the public, the investigation necessarily took in much that ap- plied to interstate commerce, which must be my excuse for quoting liberally . from their report. After considering various defects in the general relations of · rai1roads to the public the committee say (page 7): "The mistake was in not providing proper s:1.feguards to protect the public intcre~tand hold the roads to a strict accountability for their transactions. Thus, 

through the laxity of our laws and the want of governmental control (measure- ably excusable, considering the unforeseen possiuil ities of railroad development at the time of the enactment of those law~, but no longer pardonable in the light oftbe evidence herewith submitted), have crept in those abuses b,ereafter men- tioned, so glaring in their proportions as to savor of fiction rather than actual 

history." 

.After considering these abuses at length the committee say (page 69): 

"Now, as to the necessity for some regulation to protect the public, see testi- mony of Mr. Rutter, pages 453--54, where he testifies that he serves the stockhold- ers only, and only regards the public interest to make it tributary to the interests 

of the stockholders. ''Mr. Vilas (testimony, pages 414-15) testifies to the same controling motives. "1\lr. Blanchard, after describing a rail way officer as subject to three practical 

tribunals-first, the president of the road; · second, the law as laid down affect- ing transportation; and tbird, the unwritten law of commerce-says: "'It has been our policy in this matter, whi1e keeping within the statute law, as far as I knew it, or had occasion to know it, thatwhere,·er this public unwrit- ten law came iuto contact with the interests of the shareholders, I believed it to be my conscientious duty to decide in favor of the shareholder; I 1..-new of no claim that the non-shareholding interests had upon me as a railroad officer, so long as I was within the written law, to concede its views in the matter of rates and in the management of our traffic.' "In the joint letter (testimony, page 47), 1\Iessrs. Vanderbilt & .Jewett say: "·That the managet·s of a railroad company desire to make all the money they can for their clients, and to do this they have constantly before them the question what rateu;ithin their chartered limits will an article bear that will yield the hrgest profit and at the same time stimulate its production.' "Tlte marked importance which is here attached to keeping within the law emphasizes the necessity for a law, for governmental control. The railroads have already confessed the necessity for regulation and supervision to pt·otect them from the disastrous consequences of their own acts-acts of their own management. 

"Mr. Blanchard tells us the pool will continue and will grow in extent and be respected, because roads are beginning to find out that they are better paid, by so doing they get better rates and make money. The possibility of combining 

practically under one management over 80,000 miles of railroad, with capital 

aggregating about $5,000,000, is certainly a strong reason why the Government should subject this vast interest to a proper regulation. The proposition that Congress should give to the pooling agreements the force of law, if practi- cable-which is doubtful-the people of this country, with the good reason they have t~ distrust the exercise of vast corporate power and the motives of some ot the most potent railway kings, will never consent to; and this brings us to the embarrassing question of what shall be done." · On page 64 the report says: "We have seen what gross infractions our railroads make upon the apparent rules of justice; and yet let the State propose to make a. general rule or law and they immediately produce some remote exception, and insist that it argues the injustice and unwisdom of such a. law." On page 71 of their report the committee say (pages 71-77): 

'' RECOMMENDATIO:!'<'"S. 

"The question we are called upon to consider is as broad as commerce, and commerce is king with thew hole world for vassals. It has kept pace with prog- ress ::md grown with civilization. It extends its blessings and its burdens alike to the remotest hamlet. The cost of transportation enters into what we eat and what we wear, that which preserves and nourishes our physical nature and that which administers to our spiritual. It enters into the necessities of life and is equally potent in determining our luxuries. Though it only affects certain in- dustries and certain interests directly and perceptibly, its influence is equally 

potent in all the ramifications of society. The problem of transportation is au unsolved one, and from its very nature must ever remain so. Each generation must determine for itself. The constantly shifting conditions which surround it, the ever-changing elements that enter int~ it, the continual offerings which genius contributes to cheapen and facilitate transportation, present an ever- shifting phase to this kaleidoscopic question, calling for an ever-varying solu- tion. '£he telegraph, the steel rail, the improved motor, the .Atlantic cable, and kindred causes, have revolutionized and are continually revolutionizinoo com- merce. The tariff of a dozen years ago seems extortion in the light of p'i-esent 

charges. Called from various pursuits to consider this question, we were natu- rally emban·assed by its magnitude and the vital interests involved; and now at the point of suggesting remedies for the wrongs proven to exist, remedies i~ themselves not difficult of suggestion, we are confronted with practical difficul- ties of a very embarrassing Dllture. •· The jurisdiction of this State is too limited. Proxies, watered stock, annual reports, and other matters within our State limits, are within our control and should be fully and properly regulated. TheNewYorkCentralistheonlyroad. 

engaged in the carriage of freight to and from the West wholly within our juris- diction .. The Erie is a ~ew ~erk cot:poration, but runs through three States and has Its eastern terA.mus In a foreign State. Even the port of New York that contains the city of our pride and our solicitude, is not wholly within our con~ trol. The eastern borders of her harbor are marked by the coast of a forei"'n State. Thirty-four per cent. of New York's business is done by powerful riv;l!'l of out own roads that tap the granaries of the 'Vest by the shortest and most di- rect route. 'Ve might eilllct Jaws that would drive the business from our own roads witboGt improving the condWon of affairs in this State. Indeed such a course would aggravate matters, for the interests of these rival roads ~nte'l" in rival cities. "We might cripple the prosperity of New York; we might enact laws that would build up .Jersey City and transfer the legitimate growth of New York to the Jersey coast. It is as imperative that such consequences be avoided as it is 

that present wrongs be redressed. ~e the laws of commerce ignore political divisions wholly, our jurisdiction is circumscribed by the limits of the State of 

New York. "States dh·ided bynav:igable waters. which are everybody's highway, present borders which the two systems of traffic must respect,'and the breaking of bull:: and terminal expense incidental thereto is unavoidable; but the artificial line of the surveyor, marking a political boundar:~-· ,._ though it may determine where a man shall vote or pay his taxes, least of all lines ha:; neither breadth nor thick- ness in determining the currents of trade. 'Whatever prominence may be at- tached to State individuality .and State rights, in a commercial sense we are eminently a nation, and the sooner that fact is recognized the better it will be for om· commerce. Thero is not the slightest reason why the Liverpool mer- chant should not buy his grain, graded, in Kansas City, by cable, and have it placed along side the dock at Lh•erpool with but one intermediate handling- the transfer from car to vessel at the seaboard. In the close competition of the present age transportation must be cheapened to that extent, and it were absurd to expect produce to be handled at -ew York: for the sake of enabling those who handle it to make a profit. The point of production will seek the point of con-- sumption by the cheapest and quickest route, and kings and parliaments are powerless to prevent. The complaint that New York makes as to the loss of jobbing trade, Chicago must make and Saint Louis also. Certainly, a percentage of the complaints lodged against railroads is due to the inexomble laws of trade . Congress, with power commensurate with our territorial limits, in conjoint ac- tion with the States, can re,6ulate this matter. Under the Federal Constitution Congress may regulate interstate commerce, while the State only can regulate that within their borders. "The complication of jurisdiction is emphasized by the peculiarities of our geographical position. '£he Baltimore and Ohio and Pennsylvania Railroads reach New York city by lighterage and ferry from theJerseycoastwithoutany- where coming within our jurisdiction. The Erie road has thirty-five points of actual contact and competition with other roads (testimony page 2845). Many of these points of contact are with roads leading to Philadelphia and Baltimore . The New York Central has nine points of actual contAct with roads running or connecting through to Philadelphia and Baltimore. 1\lany of these competing roads are foreign corporations. running but a few miles within this State, and, 

therefore, could be controlled by absolute law to but a limited extent. "Rates ought not to be secret; but to go to the extreme urged by some, and compel the publica.tion n.nd posting of rates at all stations within this State, and prescribe u.fi.xed period that allrntes must be]>osted before they could go into efl"ect, a rule that· would be eminently just and proper could it be enforced gen- erally throughout the country, would not only give notice to the public, but also to all competing roads. .And at all points of contact-and there are many along the ErieandCentral also-PennsylvaniaandNewJerseyroadscouldmaketheir rates just enough lower to get the business and take it to Philadelphia or Balti- more or even to New York over their lines. For instance, the Delaware, Lack- awannaandWestern,infixingathroughratefromOswegoorUticatoNewYork, 

can comply with any requirement the Legislature may enact, until they get to the State line, and then, unrestricted as they are iu Pennsylvania. and New Jersey, could vary their rates so as all the wllile to place our own State roads at a dis- advantage; this road, which is a Pennsylvania corporation, might publish its rates at all New York stations, and, foriustance,charge25cents per100cwt. from Oswego to the State line and nothing from thereto Jersey City, The line being a continuous one it would make no difference to its treasury whether the charge was located upon a portion of its line or the whole of it. The same may be said of the Northern Central running from Canandaigua to Baltimore, and the samo of the Buffalo, New York and Philadelphia running from Buffalo to Philadel· pbia, and others. Our railroads should be forbidden to make secret rates ann compelled to treat all shippers alike, but the propriety of compelling the publi- cation of rates and the publication of all proposed changes is a matter for your serious consideration. · ''Your committee made an earnest effort to ascertain the cost of transporta- tion and the relation of the cost of through and local traffic. The best informa- tion that we could obtain does not enable us to suggest the enactment of any fixed ratio between State and extra State points, neither are we able t~ suggest the enactment of any fixed ratio between different points within this State. A thorough consideration of all the evidence adduced upon this subject, and of the subject itself,·indnces theconviction that t.he passage of what is popularly termed a pro rata freight law would be prejudicial to the interests of the public. The experience of 'Vestern Slates in tQis direction ought to be a warning and a sat- isfactory reason for declining to bring this subject into the field of legislation in this State. While there are certain general propositions that may with propriety be laid down by the Legislature for the control of traffic managers in the adjust- ment of rates, within whose general rules there must be permitted an elasticity of management and freedom to exercise judgment and discretion upon the ever varying questions that constantly present themselves for action, as a principle of railroad management, no more should bei)harged on small stiipments than on large shipments proportionately than the additional cost of handling. ".A. properunitofshipmentshonld be fixed. Thepracticeofchargingmorefor a short haul than for a long haul should be forbidden; the granting of unequal or preferential rates should be forbidden; the m.'l.k.ing of secret rates and the giving of drawbacks and rebates for such purpose should be forbidden; and your commit.tee are of the opinion that the Legislatme may safely go to this extent without infringing the proper discretion and elasticity of management which railroadmanagersmustofnecessitypossesswithoutdrivingthebusinessfromour 

own State roads to the rival roads of other States, withoutdrivingthe commerce from our own cilies to rival cities, and without in thesligbtestdegreeinfringing or compromising the vestei:l rights of rail1·oad property. Your committee there- fore accompany their report with proposed legislation designed to correct the above evils and the evils of the proxy sy tem ; designed to remove the defects in the law requiring an annual report t~ the State engineer and surveyor so that said report shall disclose a full and complete history of the year's transactions of the road, both financial and otherwi e; designed to remove those provisions oflaw whereby it is possible to issue bonds convertible into stock, convert them into stock, and pla.ce the stock upon the market, all in one transaction, as was notably done during. the Fisk a.nd Gould administration of the Erie, and which may be done at any time for the purpose of obtaining or maintaining control of a road; amending the law passed in 1 69. and still in force, which permits any two railroads upon consolidation to fix their capital stock at any amount, or, in other words, to infuse any amount of water int~ it; amending that pro- vision of law which provides for issuing stock by railroads so as to give to the transaction publicity and reqnire, preliminary thereto, the consent of the public 

tbrough its proper officers; _and d~igned to prevent discriminations upon like nnd contemporaneous shipments. "The business of transpoTtation requires the greatest freedom of management of any business extant. This is mani£> t to the most casual observer. The dif- ficulty and the danger of imposing cast-iron regulRtions upon our railroads, es- pecially in view of the fact that they would apply to our railroads only, leaving their competitors free and untrammeled, compel us to inquire what other means or instrumentality may be made effective in obtaining the redress which the pub- lic seek and to which they ure entitled. Ce1·tainly, a railroad, in order to be suc- cessfully managed and prosperous in the whirlpool of competition of the present · time, must be run by brains and not by legislation, and the reforms in railroad management must come through railroad managers by means of a public press- urehrougbt to bear upon them. The claim given prominence by Mr. Depew, that railroads in guarding the interest of their stockholders will regulate them· 
. ~ 

332 CONGRESSIONAL REOORD- HOUSE. DECEMBER 18, 

selve , would have more force were it not painfully apparent that railroads are notal ways run in the intere t of the stockholders (and the interest of shippers must be considered). During recent years the management and the stockholding interest of the New York Central have been identical, and that road has been conducted with the best of economy and with exceptional ability, but ac- cording to Mr. Depew himself under prior managements the interests of the 

stockl10lders were disregarded in various ways. Boards of railroad directors 

frequently represent but o. small share of the stockholding interest, and under 

the temptations w bich our railroad system holds out have in the past frequently consult~d their own intet·e ·ts to the detriment of the trust which they represented. "It seems to your committee that the wrongs that exist may be ameliorated, 

if not corrected, by introducing into the determination of these questions a pub- lic element which shall give t.o the public interest. a consideration which t.he evidence shows it does not now receh·e; and to that end we recommend a commission, to be corppo ed of three individ nals, with power of in ye tigation and rec- ommell(]ation. . "The claim recently pntfurth through the pre s by !r. Vanderbilt, that, in case of a commi sion, the commi ion must either own the railronus ot· the railroncis own it, presupposes an absolute hostility between the interest of the railroads and the public. which, in the judgment of thi committee, rloes nut or, nt le.'lst, should not exist; ami also a degree of veuality on the JnU't of pui.Jlic officials which a judicious execuli,·e will easily avoid. The prosperity of our St.nte 

is inseparably connected with the prosp(·rity of om· railroads. Auu in eon lendi-ng for commercial upremacy and the control of the trnnic of the '\Vest and 

Southwest, with (.heir constantly growiug power in que tions of commerce and 

of government, public rutd railway interests will be identical arl(l their efforts must be united. Thi emphasizes the necessity of immediately correcting the 

evils of ra.ilwny ruanagellll' nt in thj tate, in order that all intet·ests may be 

united. 

"A commi ion, to be properly constituted, should. as does the English com- mission, gh·e a. rcpresentatiYe to the rnilroads as well ns to the public. One of 

the comlllissioners should be n. llil!-ll thoroughly familiar with the busine of 

railt-oading, one of recognized ability and a recognized authority upon such 

questions: another should be ft. representative of the commercial interests of the 

city of New York, and another should represent> the interests of the interior of 

the State; and one of the lht·ee shouiJ possess legal training. "'Vit.h a commis!>ion tltu constituted. l'O rnposed of men of recognized ability and unquc tioned intC'grity, who should de,·ot~ to thi vnst que.<;tion their es~ecial consideration and entire attention, it seems to u it would be alike prolitn- ble to the pul.Jic uud to the railroads. B~· means of their powers they could 

bring' 1·ailroad management into the scruti11y of Ute public, and subject it to the influence of tltat ruost powerful of all motors fort he correction of evil-pub- lic opinion. This will afford l-t> the public a tribunal to whom they can appeal for a redt·ess of grienmct'S, easily nnd without cxpensc: whereas now the on!y redre sis to be had in a legal controversy " ·itb a. pO\\'erful cot·pomte intet·est. 

lf wrong should be practiced or attempt~;!. the commission, Ly. investigation, could hring them to light, and the rcstminiug effect of possible or probable ex- posure of improper manngcmcnt woulu, in it-elf, be a powerful t"ouservntor of 

public interests. Ccmmissious have been tried in many other States of the 

Union, and from their long continuance it is to be presumed that they have 

worked satisfactorily and beneficially there. 'Vbile we easily foresee that an i,mproperly constituted commi sion. composed of dishonest and incompetent men, would be alike a cur e to the railroads and to thepnhltc, yet the necessity of 

enforcing a. proper relation of these vast iutet·ests to the public and holding them to a pt•oper accountability, and especially Ill view of our SL'\te govern- ment as at present constituted, your committee are of opinion that the example of other States and other countries in respect to a commi sion may with pro- priety and with profit be copied by us. Your committee have suggested reme- dies for the prominent evils discovered. The Yet-y limited time since our testimony was in print has not enabled us to review the whole field of legislation with the thoroughness desired, but the testimony submitted and the wisdom of 

the Legislature will suggest such remedies as we have omitted to specify." 'Vhile the foregoing recommendations were made ns applying to the railroads of the State of New York, it will be observed that they embody the es en- tial principles that should govern in interstate commerce, namely: first, pub- licity of rates; second, prohibition of preferential rates; third, proqibiting drawbacks and rebates; fourth, that no more should be charged on small shipments than the additional cost; fifth, that charging more for a short haul than for a long one should be forbidden: si.l:lh, declining to legalize pooling; seventh, 

establishing a board of commissioners to see that these laws are enforced, and to investigate complaints and see that.justice is done as between shippers and 

carriers. (I also belie\"e that actions in the United States courts with penalties, as provided in the Reagan bill, are necessary in a country of such a vast area as ours.) The leading features of these recommendations were included in the 

bill known as the New York anti-discrimination, bill, which, however, was defeated in our Legislature by the money and influence of the railroads, com- bined with that of favored shippers. These were rallied and required by the 

railroad companies to appear at Albany nnd help defeat the bill; a special train was run and free transportation provided for this purpose; bow they obeyed is shown by the following from the New Yo1·kevening :Post of that date: 

"The power thus exerted upon the pending bill to prohibit unfair discriminations in freight charges may at any time be exerted upon legislation touching railroad interests. The railroads reach into every important cente1· of popula- tion, and thousands of men maybe precipitated upon the capital at a. few hours' 

notice. One of the objections urged against establishing the State capital in 

New York city, when the subject was under discussion, was the danger of intimidation by a rabble populace. A similar means of influencing legislation is, it appears by to-day's experience, in the hands of the railroads. Whether 

the pending bill be wise or not, the means taken to crush it out a1·e reprehen- sible. By the admission of one of the leading opponents of the measure, the 

crowd around the railroad committee to-day was m.a.de up of men who are the 

recipients of favors from the railroads. They could not refuse nor neglect to obey when summoned, because the railroads, under existing laws, are their masters. If they hesitate to come to the relief of the railroads when they are wanted, they run the risk of losing the enjoyment of those favors by reason of 

which they fare better than their neighbors. The whole proceeding was, it is not too much to say, a. species of intimidation, which, if allowed to come into 

practice at Albany, will be a source of great evil." 

The commission feature, however, was enacted into a law, but the commission has been constantly hampered for want of power, and its decisions have 

been disobeyed and disregarded. The railroads would not object to a na.tional 

commission with limited powers, to act as~ butTer between them and public 

opinion, and the danger is that such a law will be passed and that they will con- trol the appointment of a majority of the commissioners in their interest. I am of the opinion that any adequate law for the regulation of interstate commerce should em body the foregoing provisions, that the commissioners should be given adequate power and be paid salaries as high as railroad companies pay for similar talent. 

That these reforms, if real and genuine, will be opposed alike by the railroads and favored shippers, experience in New York and other States shows. · Eloquent advocates, both in and out of Congress, will endeavor to show that 

the proposed remedies will work more harm. than the evils which exist. Fa- vored localities and favored shippers will honestly and earnestly endeavor to show this, but the we1fare of the many should prevail over that of the pri.vileged few, and the Congre s which gra.;:>ples with and provides a remedy for 

the great wrongs known to exist wi11 be a. memorable one in the history of this 

country? 

F. B. TIIURBER, 1-tf!W York. 

The facts stated by Mr. Thurber seem to me to be a complete· and 

full argument that ought to leave no douut in the mind of any member on this floor as to his duty in giving the subject of interstate commerce n. preference in the business that may come before this House. 

One-half of all the laboring people of this country are engaged in agriculture, and more than any otper industry is agriculture snhject to 

and under the absolute control of railroad mn.:tagement, and there will 

be no satisfactory settlement of this que lion until the Congress of the 

D,oited States shall pass ajnst and reasonable law regulating the comm e rce between the States carried on by the railroads. The annual 

product in bushels of the different kind of grain in the United States 

is about 3,000,000,000, and an unjust exaction of 1 cent per bushel 

takes away from the farmers of this country 30,000,000. 

Even conceding that freight rates may be reasonable at times, yet 

it is important they should be made public and not be subject to constant change. 

.1\Ir. MORRISON. I demand the previous question. 

The previous question was ordered. 

The qnestion .being taken on the amendment, tbere were-yeas 71, noes 95. · 

]\[r. WEA. VER, of Nebraska. I call for the yeas and nays. 

The yeas and nays were not ordered, only 28 members Toting therefur-not one-fifth of the ln.st vote. 

So the amendment was not agreed to. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

Amend Rule XXf, by inserting after the word "progress" the words "an4 

for the contingencie for carrying on the several Departments of the Government," and by triking out the following cluu. e: " Nor shall any pro vi ion in any such bill or amendment thereto changing ex- i. I ing- law be in oruer, except such a , beillg germane to the snbject-ruatter of 

the bill. Rhnll retrench expenditures by the reduction of the number anJ salary oft he officers of the Unitt>d ~taH'R, hy the reduction of the compensation of any pet"Son pairt out of the Trea.sur·y of the United State ,or by the reduction of amounts of money CO\'Cn·d by tue bill: Prodded, That it shall be in 01·cler further to amend such bill upon the report of th~ committee having juri diction of 

the subject·matterofsuch nmendment. which amendment, being germane to tho 

ubjec!.-matter of the bill, shall retrenc-h expenditures." So RS to make the rul ~ read a'l follows: 

"No appropriation slmll he reported in any general appropriation bill, or bo 

in order as au a.mendru·.mt thereto, !no; any expenditure not previously authorized by law, unles in continuation of appropriations for such publieworksand objects ns are already in progress, and for the contingencies for carrying on the 

several Departments of the Government." 

Mr. UcCO~'lAS. I wish to make a parliamentary inquiry. I desire 

to know whether, under this clause as proposed to be amended, it will 

be in order at any time for any member to move to amend an appropria.tion' bill by striking out any sum of money proposed to be appropriated and inserting a less sum. In other words, I wish to know 

whether this clause will allow the amplest opportunity for amendments reducing sums of money proposed to be appropriated by an ap·-

propriation bill. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair does not think it is his province to decide in advance questions of construction which may arise under these 

rules. He is called upon to decide such questions only when presented 

in the course of the proceedings of the House. 

Ur. ADAMS, of Illinois. I now offer, and ask the Clerk to rea.d, 

an amendment of which I gave not~ce and which is printed on page 

298 of the RECORD. 

The Clerk read as follows : 

Add to cia use 3, Rule XXI, the following words: "Nor hall any provision changing existing law be in order in any general appropriation bill or in any amendment thereto." 

bir. A D AMS, of Illinois. The purpose of this amendment is to avoid 

any controversy that might otherwise arise in regard to the meaning 

and effect of this rule. The fact that there is such controversy bas been 

brought to our attention time and again during the course of the debates 

in this House. The Committee on Rules have simply struck out 11 the 

Holman amendment," so called, and have I'estored, word for word, I 

think, the precise rule which prevailed in the Forty-third Congress. 

As there was controversy in that Congress in reference to the meaning ol 

this rule, there will be such controversy ag1in if it be readopted now 

without the amendmentwhichipropose. 'l'he '

1

Holmanamendment'' 

is a proh ibition of legislation upon appropriation bills; but to that prohibition there are subjoined certain exceptions. · 

Ifthe Committee on Rules had stricken out these exceptions, and 

left the first part of the amendment standing, there would be, I think, 

no question as to its construction. But they have stricken out notonlj 

the exceptions but the general prohibition, leaving the subject without 

any rule to govern it. If this question be left to general parliamentary 

law, there is no parliamenta.ry law excluding legislation from appropriation bills. 

That there is a division of opinion in the House on this subject is 

clear. One of my colleagues said the other day that when the '' Holman amendment" was adopted a" Pandora's box" of evil was opened. 

He must have me..1.nt that before this amendment was adopted it was 

not in order to legislate upon an appropriation bill. But the gentle--
1885. OONGRESSION~L RECORD-HOUSE. 333 

man from Indiana [Mr. HoLMAN] and the gentleman from Texas [Mr. 

REA.GAN] have inJormed us that prior to the Forty-fourth Congress 

legislation on appropriation bills was of frequent occurrence. So far as I am concerned I agree with the gentleman from Indiana 

and the gentleman from Texas, and I do not know why we should not 

settle the controversy if we can foreclose it by a written rule. If we adopt this rule the decision unquestionably will be against all legislation on appropriation bills. - - I have only to add as to the necessity of this amendment that the decision when it comes to be made will not be made by the Speaker of 

the House but by some chairman of the Committee of the Whole. We 

do not know who he will be nor which way his viewswillincline. He 

may be governed by Mr. Garfield, Senator HOA.R, and my colleague 

from Illinois,-and if so he will decide one way; or he may be governed 

by_the great name of my friend from Indiana [Mr. HoLMAN] or that 

of my friend from rexas [Mr. REA.GAN], and if so he will decide the 

other way. - Let us foreclose the question altogether, and let us settle 

it by a written rule, so that no decision of the chairman of the Committee of the "Whole depending on some unwritten tradition of the 

Forty-third Congress-will enable any ofns to evade it. 

Mr. HAMMOND. I desire to offer the amendment I have laid on the table as a substitute for the pending proposition. 

The Clerk read aa follows: 

But no general legislation shall be in order on any general appropriation bill nor as an amendment thereto ; and no appropriation shall_ be reported in nny 

genera-l appropriation bill, or be in order as an amendment thereto, for any ex- penditures not previously authorized by Jaw, unless in continuation of appro- priations for sueh public works and objects as are already in progress. 

Mr. HAMMOND. It will be plain that my substitute covers a little more ground than that of the gentleman who has just taken his seat. 

His would forbid appropriations for works in progress. :My substitute covers the 'whole ground, and as I have been heard on it already, I will 

not further take up the time of t.he House. 

Mr. WARNER, of Ohio. Does not the gentleman·s substitute also 

cover the first part of the rule? 

Mr. HAMMOND. Certainly it does. 

Mr. WARNER, of Ohio. A substitute for the whole? 

Mr. HA IMOND: That is what I said; it is offered as a substitute 

for the pending propoSition; that is, the rule and his amendment. 

:Mr. HOLMAN. I believe a further substitute is now in order. 

The SPEAKER. An amendment to the substitute is in order and 

the gentleman may offer it in the form of a substitute for it.- Mr. HOLMAN. I will offer it in that form-as a substitute for the 

amendment. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

No appropriation shall be-reported in any general appropriation bill, or be 

in order as an amendment thereto, for any expenditure .not previously authorized by law, unless in continuation of appropriations for such public works and 

objects as are already in progress, and for the contingencies for carrying on the 

several Departments of the Government. Nor shall any provision changing existing law be in order upon any general appropriation bill or be recei~ed as an amendment thereto, but provisions or amendments for the direct reduction 

of the number, salary, and compensation of officers and employes of the United 

States shall be in order on a general appropriation bill if germane to the subject-matter of the bill. · 

Mr. HOLMAN. Mr. Speaker, I trust the House will indulge me even at this late hour with an opportunity to point out the direct effect 

of this amendment. It embodies the words of the rule aa reported by 

the Committee on Rules. It also embodies the words of the amendment of the gentleman from Illinois, which is a parl of the former rule 

heretofore in force. Then it adds these words: -

But p1:ovision,s or amendment-s for the direct reduc_tion of the number salary, 

and compensatiOn of officers and ~mploy(isOf the Umted States shall be in order on a. general appropriation bill if germane to the subject-matter of the bill. 

Gentlemen will see that it is confined, first, to a direct reduction, 

not indirect; and secondly, to a reduction of salaries and numbers alone 

of officers and employes. It is confined to just that narrow scope. I 

wish to avoid this cry against legislation and yet leave to the House some power for reform, and I trust the House will go at least to that 

extent. It simply creates and retains the power to reduce the number 

and salaries of employes in the only manner that experience demonstrates 

it can be done-on appropriation bills; nothing more. .Mr. HISCOCK. So far as the reduction of employes is concerned, 

either in number or salary, in any branch of the Government, the com- mittee having the bill in charge has full jurisdiction. .AB to that there 

is no question. They have the power originally under the statutes, 

and I presume the gentleman will not controvert my proposition, to 

add to the number of clerks or to increase their compe.DEation or to 

reduce their number or compensation. That i..c1 the case now. He 

seeks to go further than that. He seeks to take jurisdiction of an appropriation bill and reduce the salaries of officers under the general 

statutes. To that I object. 

If it is necessary or proper that the salary of any public officer should 

be reduced, do not let it be done on the general appropriation bill that 

is brought in here and considered. Do not attempt to force it upon 

the House by saying you shall reduce this salary or the appropriation 

bill shall not pass. Thatiswhatlobjectto. I objecttoapropositionto 

bring in legislation which may change salaries, and of course that means that the salaries will be the salaries of officers; and it ic:~ a matter in 

which I shall probably have no personal interest; but I do not believe 

it should be put into the power of any committee charged with appropriating to force this House, at the peril of losing the bill, to reduce 

salaries in accordance with the recommendations of that committee. 

Mr. RYAN. Let me ask the gentleman a question. Is not the rule 

under which we have heretofore operated framed so as to permit just 

that very thing? Does it not permit a reduction-of salaries, as well as 

the other-the redur.tion of officers? 

Mr. HISCOCK. So far as the salaries of clerks are concerned, yes; 

but so far as the salaries of officera, under general statutes, are concerned, I apprehend, no. Mr. RYAN. I ask the gentlem~n further, if the provision by which a former Congress voted this ba.ck p:~.y or salary grab was not under 

that identical rule? 

:Mr. HISCOCK. Under the identical rule as proposed here? 

Mr. RYAN. .AB reported by the Committee on Rules. 

Mr. HISCOCK. I do not know how that may be. I know that if 

there is any authority for legislation of that kind it is cured by the 

amendment proposed by the gen tlemau from Illinois [Mr. ADAMs], and 

which I hope will be adopted. What I am in favor of is the elimination of all legislation from these bills. 

But there is another point in connection-with this subject to which 

I desire to say a word. When you- once commence to amend, after a bill has been brought iu here to theHouseand the House has jurisdiction over the bill and the legislation which it proposes then you scarce know 

where the privilege of amending may be extended or to what point it 

may go. It is to depend on the miud of the person, whoever he may -

be. who is chosen chairman ofthe Committee of the Whole. ·• Now, I do not propose to have a chairman of the Committee of the 

"Whole say-for such will be the effect of it-how much jurisdiction a committee may have over a particular subject. -Eliminate it all from the 

bill; and this rule, as I said before, giving all these committees ample 

opportunity to get their special legislation before the House, will permit them to bring it in, and then after bringing in a bill to change salaries, if it be adopted, let them make the appropriations in accordance. 

.Mr. -MILLS. If the amendment of the gentleman from Indiana is 

adoptedl 1\Ir. Speaker, it seems to me that the greater part ofthework · done by the Committee on Rules will have been done in vain. The object in the main, as I understand it, of the Committee on Rules in re- , vising this system of rules was to distribute the work and confine com- mittees to the discharge of the duties belonging to them and for which 

they are created. -- ~·' • In other words, the proposition here is to rna ~e each committee of 

the House equal to the other committees. _ It requires the Committee on Appropriations to attend to appropriations solely; and .the Com-- mittee on the Judiciary to attend to thejudfciala:tfairs of the country, 

the Committee on Military Affairstomilita.rym.atters. · But now, after 

having gone so far, the gentleman from Indiana. invites. ns to let him 

open the bars and get into the field,- and all our work which has been _ a~mplished so far will have l;leen in vain. He says his amendment 

only relates to the number of officers of the Government and their sal .. - aries. - Why, Mr. Speaker, I remember at the last, s'ession of Congress 

when the Committee on Appropriations-not the Tariff Committee, but - the Committee on Appropriations-brought in a bill with a provision 

reorganizing every one of our customs districts. They thought it .a 

matter over which they could tak~ jurisdiction and economize. .The 

Committee on Ways and Means was absolutely ignored; and we had a - fight here on the floor of the House whether the Committee on Appropriations should assume jurisdiction of that subject or whether it should 

remain with the Committee on Ways and Means toreorganizethe cus- toms service as recommended. l If an amendment is to be adopted by 

which the Committee on Appropriations can put a spongenpon the Judiciary Committee and blot it out as a parliamentary bodyr-why then 

they can send the Committee on Military Affairs to Van Dieman's Land, 

and any other committee of the House to sheol or any_ other ..country, - when once you give them the power which this amendment would confer 

upon them. [Laughter.] - If you help them strike at an officer,-then 

they can strike at a whole su'hject over which that officer is appointed; 

and if we intend to carry out the policy adopted here, or which has been 

recommended by the committee in this reformation of the rules, let ns 

confine each committee closely within the limits of its ownjurisdiction 

as we shall define it. · -- · "' • I 

Mr. HOLMAN. Mr. Speaker, I wish to say in answer to what has 

been said but a very few words. I think during the last twenty years 

not a bill can be found reported to this House, or any provision of a bill, reducing the salaries or the number of public employes as an in· 

dependent measure which became a law. , I speak with some confidence on this point. For the period of twenty years, confined indeed 

to the last ten, every reduc~on that has been made, every approach 

made to economy in the salaries of officers or in public employments, 

unless in some exceptional cases, has been made through the instrn· 

mentality of an appropriation bill. This measure I propose confines 

the power of the House in legislating on appropriation bills, as I see nothing more can be hoped for, to the simple contracted-! think improperly restricted-:-power of reducing the number of public employes 

and their salaries; nothing more. · 
334 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. DECEMBER 18, 

Why, sir, the gentleman from Texas [?t!r. MILLs] reminds me of a 

veryinterestingfact. Twoyearsago-more than two years ago-when 

a great citizen of New York was at the head of the Treasury Department, under the last administration, he reported to Congress that thff(e 

w. necessity, in hisopinion, for the reorganization ofthecustoms district , by which a reduction of about half a million dollars a year might 

be made in expenditures in the collection of the customs revenues. 

I admit that the Committee on .Appropriations, after waiting patiently for the action of some other committee, did try to carry out 

that recommendation of the Republican Secretary of the Treasury, did 

try upon an appropriation bill to reduce your expenditures to the extent of half a million of dollars in conformity with that recommendation in a single branch of the service. I admit all that. Was there 

anyt hing in that to justify condemnation? Would it have done injury 

to the public service? Did it matter from what committee it came? 

EYery gentleman who has been in the House for any considerable 

period knows that if there has been the ab(}lition of a single office or 

the reduction of a single salary it bas been through one of these appropriation bills. Can you not trust the various committees that h.we 

charge of these bills-the Committee on Uilitary Affairs, the Committee 

on Indian Affairs, the Committee on the Post-Offices, the Committee 

on Naval Affairs-yon have invested with power to control appropriation bills. Can you not trust these various committees to make reductions on the appropriation bills, the only bills that will become 

law ? No appeal, I trust, is necessary to the gentlemen around me 

who are receiving every day from their constituencies demands that the 

extravagance incident to a great war and an inflated currency not yet 

remedied shall be reformed. It is absolutely necessary that the extent of the powers of legislation shall be such as to permit the accomplishment of such a result unless a new policy is intended. Certainly 

we can not hesitate to confer on these various committees having charge 

of the subject the power of reducing the number of officers where necessary, or the amount of salaries, where the salaries are found excessive, 

unless we intend to abandon all efforts at reform, and take the Government as we find it, as needing no improvement at our hands. 

:Mr. 1ITLLS. The argument of the gentleman fromlndiana is to the 

efiect that if there is a committee of this House which the Committee 

on Appropriations thinks is not discharging its duty the Committee 

on .Appropriations can take the business which belongs to that committee as a subject of legislation and report it to this House. It is true, 

as stated by the gentlemen and as was stated before by myself, that 

the Secretary of the Treasury did report that the customs districts 

could be changed and a large saving made to the Government. The 

Committee on Ways and-Means appointed a subcommittee of which I 

was chairman, and I went to the Secretary of the Treasury to investigate the matter with a view to preparing a bill to report to the House, 

and I fonnd this to be the sta.1e of the case: There had been simply 

draWL :i.ide,s on the surface of the map in this district here, this district there. and this district over yonder. When I looked at the districts I found that they had no reference to commercial points. There 

was one in Virginia which looked very pretty on the map, but when the 

people of Virginia came and complained, ''Yon have changed our commer·cial point and assigned it to a plaee where the milioad does not terminate," and when I reported that fuct to the Secretary of the Treasury 

and invited his investigation he referred me to the bureau man, and the 

bureau man admitted that he had made a mistake because he had known 

nothing as to the railroad. 

Mr. ?tffi.J,JKEN. Will the gentleman yield to me for a question? 

Mr. MILLS. Yes, sir. 

Mr . .ftffi,J.IKEN. Did you not also find that in tha.t reporltheSecretary had made a m.i.stnke, and that the resnl t, if it had been carried 

out, would h..we been simply to cripp~e the service and make no saving 

to the Government? 

Mr. MILLS. I found out it was a work so large that we had to investigate and continue our investigation, and we could not in one session reconcile all conflicting interests and bring in such a bill as ought 

to have been brought in. · 

:Mr. MORRISON. Until this debate I have always understood that 

the main pur:pose of the power to enact or put legislation on appropriation bills was to force the other branch of the national Legislature to 

agree to some reductions reducing the cost :md expense of administration. The gentleman from .Indiana ['f}!r. HoLl\IAN] now tells us that 

no bill has been reported by any committee other than the Committ.ee 

on Appropria,tions to reduce any of these expenditures. ";7hy, sir, is 

this the fact if it is a fuct? It is because and only because we had 

assumed here on the authority of our Appropriations Committee that 

the legislative body at the other end of the Capitol, in the interest of 

their own friends, then holding all the offices, would .resist these reductions; and therefore the Committee on Appropriations has been allowed 

to have complete and absolute control of the subject. I insist again, 

as I have already, the Senate is not going to stand in the way of our 

reducing the compensation of our own officials. If the necessity or justification for such legislation ever existed it no longer exists. 

As to the words inserted in clause 3 of Rule XXI, authorizing appropriations for contingencies, you will find in every general appropria-

~on bill which has come from the hands of the Committee on Appropriations in the last ten years a considerable sum appropriated for con- tingencies unauthorized by any lo.w-not reducilig· expenditures but 

often increasing them-and without any rule under which ~t might be 

done. And I violate no trusb or committee secrets when I say it was 

at the instance of the Speaker this much-criticised clause was inserted, 

in order that that which before had been done without a rule and in 

violation of existing rules might be done in conformity with the rules 

only for necessary contingencies. 

I haT'e no objection, nor has any member of the Committee on Rules, 

to having that clause stricken out. And further, in order to make this 

more secure against the possibility of increased expenditure, I am willing for myself that the proposition of my colleUorrue from lllinois [.ft!r. 

ADAMS], which is perhaps more definite in prohibiting legislation on 

appropriation bills, may be adopted. Nor have I any objection to the 

propo ition of the gentleman from Georgia [1\Ir. H.llrnoND]. Either 

will do what the Committee on Rules sought to accomplish. I trus;, 

therefore, if the report is to be amended it will be amended by one or 

the other·of these propositions, and that the amendment of the gentleman from Indiana will be voted down. Either the amendment of my 

colleague [M:r. ADAMs] or that of the gentleman from Georgia [Ur. 

HAMMOND] will be entirely acceptable, but that of the gentleman 

from Indiana [Mr. HourAN] keeps alive the old mischief and again 

opens the way to confusion. 

Mr. HOLltiAN. Will the ge~tleman permit me to make an inquiry? 

Mr. MORRISON. Cert..'linly. 

M:r. HOLMAN. How does he p~pose to accomplish the object ot 

reducing the number of employes or the amount of salaries if he shuts 

off every opportunity to make amendments on the only bills reasonably 

certain to become law? 

:Mr. MORRISON. I shnt off nothing-no opportunity. Why, sir, 

any of these committees having charge of any particular Department, 

service, or branch of the public service, if they find that the expenditures are extravagant and beyond what is just and right, beyond 

what the public service requires, more than ·reasonable compensation, 

will have the right to bring in a bill to meet the case. The gentleman 

from Indiana [Mr. CoBB] has just secured for the committee of which 

be was the head in the last Congress the right to report at any time. 

If he, or some other head of the committee, should find that the 

Commissioner of the General Land Office, or other officer or employe 

in tha,t branch of the· public service, is receiving more money as compensation than be ought to have, it will, under that privilege, be the 

duty of the Public Lands Committee to report a bill tocnto:1f or reduce 

such compensation. When any such bill is presented here and pa ed, 

is there a member of this House who honestly believes that any Senator of the majority will stand in the way of such reduction? Not 

one. Why should they? 

Mr. HOLMAN. I predict that if you set np this barrier aga,inst 

economy there will not be the reduction of the salary of a solitary emr 

ploye of the Government. 

lli. MORRISON. There is no "barrier." The gentleman llSSnmes 

that nobody is going to serve the public and the public interest but a 

member of that committee of which he has been so long an important 

part. [Laughter.] 

Mr. HAMMOND. 'Vill the gentleman from n1inois allow me to ask 

him a. question? 

Mr. MORRISON. Certainly. 

1Ir. HAMMOND. The gentleman has said he is willing that either 

the amendment of his colleague or my amendment should be adopted. 

I desire to call his attention to the fuct that the amendment of his colleague omits certain words which mine retains-the words "unless in 

continuation of appropriations for such public works and objects as are 

already in progress." The gentleman does not desire to have those 

woTds left out, does he? 

Mr. MORRISON. Oh, no. 

Mr. HAMMOND. Then the gentleman is in favor of my proposition as embodying all that should be included. 

Mr. RY.AN and others. ·That is right. 

Mr. HOLMAN. Thegentleman:misapprehends. Tbelanguagew:ith 

reference to contingencies for the various Departments is in the proposition which I have submitted. 

Mr. HAMMOND. Bn.t it is not in mine. 

Mr. HOLMAN. Certainly not; and there would be the trouble. I 

have taken the rule just as reported by the Committee on Rules have 

added what was proposed by the gentleman from Illinois, which as 

part of the old rule, but h.we added the proposition allowing thereduction of salaries and the abolition of unnecessary offices. That is 

all-nothing more. [Cries of " Vote ! " " Vote ! "] 

Mr. SPRINGER. I desire to support briefly the amendment of the 

gentleman from Indiana [Mr. HoLMAN]. This proposition does not 

authorize a committee to bring in a rider upon an appropriation bill, 

but simply allows the committee to report, or members of the House 

to propose, amendmentS reducing directly the number and pay of officers 

and employes of the Government. It simply allows this House, whea 

the appropriation bills are before it, to determine how much compensation shall be given to the officers of the Government and how many 

officers we shall hn.ve. 
1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 335 

It is well known to the country, and I hope it will be better known 

to this House when we come to consider the appropriation bills than 

it seems to be now, that our present President and heads of the Departments haTe shown the necessity for a large reduction in the number 

and pay of officers and employes of the Government. We ought to supplement the wise economies of this Democratic administration by legislation looking to such reductions. This is all that the amendment of 

the distinguished g~n.tleman from Indiana contemplates. I hope that 

this Democratic majority will not now give up every opportunity that 

has heretofore been afforded to the Appropriations Committee in reference to the reduction of the expenditures of the Government. We have 

surrendered much; we have given away almost everything to the other 

side. I hope we shall now reserve to ourselves the privilege of bringing about something in the way of reform and economy. 

Mr. BLOUNT. Mr. Speaker, if we had not had some experience 

under this proposition of the gentleman from Indiana I might agree 

with him as to its necessity and efficacy. But for several years, under 

a rule authorizing what the gentleman p1·oposes, almost every Committee on Appropriations has come in here with propositions to increase 

the salaries of somebody in the Departments. That has been the practice. I remember, for instancel\lr. HOL:h-l.AN. Does my friend say this rule would allow that? 

Mr. BLOUNT. No, sir; but you will do it in spite of the rule, as 

yon have done. 

Mr. HOLMAN. Not the Committee on Appropriations. 

Mr. BLOUNT. l\fr. Speaker, under that rule, in a legislative n.ppropriafion bill which I have now in my mind, the salaries of the 

assistant or deputy commissioners of patents were increased. There 

have been a number of such increases. The theory of the rule is very 

beautiful, bntl\Ir. HOLMAN. l\Iy friend knows very well that any such increase 

would under tl1e rule be subject to a point of order. 

Mr. BLOUNT. Yes, I know it; yet, notwithstnnding that fact, 

such provisions were reported in these bills and passed time and again. 

I do not believe in giving to that committee any such authority. It 

has been abused. Sir, it has been hinted sometimes that persons wbo 

were favorites of gentlemen on the Committee on .Appropriations had 

had their salaries increased. I do not believe in being misled by a 

proposition which on its face is exceedingly fair. We have suffered 

from this a.buse. I think it better that there should be no increase of 

salaries in this way. 

Now, I am not disposed to taketheposition of my friend from Indiana a while ago, that there is no other committee that will look after 

economy in this respect. 

fr. HOLMAN. Oh! I did not say that. 

Mr. BLOUNT. But the gentleman said in reference to the reorganizaHon of the employes in the customs service that the Committee on 

Appropriations found nobody else would do it, and they took it up. 

I am afraid they will find themselves in tha.t condition all the while. 

I am therefore opposed to this proposition. 

There is an additional reason against the propo ition-the greater 

temptation that there may be at the present time fo:c such things as J 

have referred to. This side of the House is in the majority. It has 

the control of the administration. The important employes are in the 

several Departments. \Ve shall be constantly tempted, and a thousand 

fold more than we have ever been before, to violate this rule and to 

abuse these provisions, as we have done ~der this rule in the past. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

:Mr. HOLl\IAN. l\Ir. Speaker, !think that is a.veryremau::ableview 

to take of this question. A positive rule to allow only. reduction of 

salaries and reduction of the force of public officers my friend from 

Georgia is afraid "\vill be taken advantage of to enlarge the force of employes and the compensation which is paid to them. 

lfr. BLOUNT. "What I am afraid of is that you will not .obey the 

rule anymore in the foture than you have in the past. 

l\fr. HOLMAN. That may be, the rule may be violated; but I submit, sir, that is no argument against the rule itself. And if under a 

rule designed for the express purpose of reducing the expenses of t be 

Government-if under such a rule there has been still further increa....c.e 

of salaries and of the number of employes~ can this Hon e afford to 

run the risk of adopting a new code of rules in which no opportunity 

for 1·eduction either of salaries or the force of employes is permitted? 

:h-lr. HERBERT. Let me ask the gentlemn.n from Indiana a question right here. 

Mr. HOLMAN. Certuinly. 

Mr. HERBERT. Is it not a. fact that the number of employes generally is.not fixed by bw at all? 

Mr. HOLMAN. As a general thing. 

Mr. HERBERT. But that it depends entirely upon appropriations 

made in appropriation bills. If the committee appropriates money for 

them, Tery well; and if not, very well. You have without this rule. 

for which you contend the power then either to increase or to decre.:1se 

the sa1aries and the numbe1· of employes. 

Mr. HOLJ\·'l.AN. Certuinly. 

l\fr. HERBERT. Then if you have, this discussion it seem.'3 to me is proceeding with an entire misunderst,anding of the facts. 

Mr. HOL11IAN. Within certain limitations that is correct. There 

are many clerks in the Departments the body of them not provided for 

by law except as to classes upon the appropriation bills. The great 

body of employes in every branch of the public service is provided for 

by classifications, but the great body of officers is provided for by law. · 

You can on appropriation bills refuse to make an appropriation, but 

that does not abolish the office, but leaves it still standing. 

Jlir. HERBERT. It is only the highest officers and not the great 

body of employes to which that refers. 

l\lr. HOLMAN. The great body of offices. I never expected to be 

called upon to urge on this side of the House a proposition like thisa necessary rule if reforms are to be made. I am asking simply the 

opportunity should be left to reduce what we have claimed heretofore, 

that the public service was overburdened with unnecessary offices, that 

we should be permitted to offer propositions to reduce their number, 

which we have insisted was more than the public seHice required, and 

to reduce a multitude of salaries which we have pronounced to be unnecessarily large. 

There is not a stump, sir, in this whole land from which has not rung 

out the denunciations of Democratic orators that these expenditures 

were greatly beyond what the people ought to endure. Is it now possible tbat this House intends deliberately to set up a barrier against 

every attempt to retrench expenditures? 

l\1r. MORRISON. It is only in the imagination of the gentleman. 

l\lr. HOLMAN. And that, too, when we are occupying these scats 

under and by virtue of 3. platform demanding economy and reform in 

the administration of this Government? At this early moment ·are we 

to go back upon that platform? 

Gentlemen talk of a new departure, new theories of political action. 

I shall not believe until it occurs, :!£ it must occur, that this Democratic Honse will enact an impregnable barrier against all efforts to 

carry out the pledges we have made to the people and on the strength 

of which we occupy these seats. 

Mr. BLOUNT. Will my friend from Indiana allow me to ask him 

a question, and that is whether he has no hope in any other committee 

than his own? 

Mr. HOLMAN. I am not speaking of any committee. I am on no 

committee. I never indulge in personal allusions or personal preferences in debate. I am speaking simply of the effect of these rules on. 

all committees. 

l\Ir. BLOUNT. I did not mean it in any personal sense. 

Mr. HOLMAN. Norbavel referred to any committee. I ha>eserTed 

on many of the committees in this House, and have found them all <·omposed of able anrl efficient members. I claim nothing more for the Committee on Appropriations than for any ot:Qer committee in this House. 

You have sent these appropriation bills by your vote to different 

committees. Why not then trust those committees with the power 

to restrict the expenses of the Government in the several departments 

placed under their control. As the rule came from the Committee on 

the Rules it opens the door for increase in expenditures by increase of 

salaries at least. That verjT r.ule, so far as the la.st clause is concerned, 

has been through all the years it was in force so interpreted-was de-

·igned for the express purpose of enabling the House to increase salaries on appropriation bilJs. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. l\IORRISON. I demand the previous question. 

Mr. ADAMS, of illinois. I understand the only difference between 

my p1·oposition and that of the gentleman from Georgia consists in this, 

that if my proposition is adopted then the following words will be a 

part of the rule, ''and for the contingencies for carrying on the several 

departments of the Government;'' and that if his proposition is adopted 

those words will not be a part of the rule. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Illinois demands the pre-vious 

question. . l\fr. A.DAl'tiS, of Illinois. Well, I desire to say simply this, that so 

far.as the words in italics are concerned I would be glad to be permitted to modify my proposition by moving to strike out that part of the 

report of the Committee on Rules, that is to say, that })art pro·viding 

for "contingencies for carrying on the several departments of tlre Go•-

ernment," and add the words printed in the RECORD. 

Mr. REED, of l\Iaine. I suggest to the gentleman from Illinois that 

he allow the House to have a vote upon the first proposition, and then 

take the other up after we have disposed of that. 

1\lr. CASWELL. I haTe submitted and had printed in the RECORD 

a motion to strike out the very words to which the gentleman from 

illinois refeiS. 

l\Ir. MORRISON. I demand the previous question. 

The previous question was ordered. 

Mr. HAND ALL. It is understood that this provision applies to appropriation bills, no matter where they are. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair so understands. 

The first question is on the amendment of the gentleman from Indian:.\ [.Mr. HOLlllAN], which the Clerk will again report. 

The amendment was again read. 

Mr. HOLMA.t"'i. I ask for the yeas and nays upon the adoption of 

that amendment. 
336 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. DEOEl\ffiER 18, 

The yeas and nays were not ordered, 40 members only voting in favor thereof and 162 against. 

:Mr. RANDALL, Mr. HOLMAN, and others demandeu tellers. 

Tellers were ordered. 

Mr. HOLMAN and 1\lr. MORRISON were appointed te1Jer.3. 

The House again divided; and the tellers reported 57 in the affirmative aml 203 in the negative. So (the affirmative being more than one- fifth of the whole) the yeas and nays were ordered. 

Mr. REAGAN. I move that the Honse do now adjourn. 

The motion was not agreed to. 

The SPEAKER. The question is on agreeing to the amendment of 

the gentleman from Indiana, on which the yeas and nays have been or- dered; and the Clerk will call the roll. 

The question was taken; and there were-yeas 69, nays 203, not voting 50; as ~ollows: ' 

YEAS-G9. 

Allen, J.M. BaUcntine, 

Barnes, 

Barry, 

Beach, 

Burnes, 

Caldwell, 

CampbeU, F., 

Clements, 

Cobb, 

Cole, 

Cowles, 

Crisp, 

Dargan, 

Dowdney, 

Ermentrout, 

Ford, 

Forney, 

Gib on, C. H., 

Glover, 

Green, R. S., 

Green, W. J., · Harris, 

Hemphill, 

Henderson, J. S. ·Henley, . Hiestand, 

. Holman, 

Howard, 

Laffoon, 

LeFevre, 

Lowry, . Mahoney, 

Matson, 

McAdoo, 

McCreary, 

McMillin, 

1\IcRea, 

Merriman, 

Neal, 

Oates, 

Peel, 

Perry, 

Pidcock, 

Pin dar. 

Randall, 

Reagan, 

Reid,J.W. 

Richardson, 

Scott, 

Shaw, 

Skinner, 

Sowden, 

Spriggs, 

NAY8-205. 

Adams, G. E. Ellsberry, 

Adams, J.J. Ely, 

.Allen, C. H. E\·ans, 

Anderson, J. A. Everhart,· Atkinson, Farquhar, 

Baker, Felt-on, 

Barksdale, Fisher, 

Bayne, Fleeger, 

-Belmont, Frederick, 

Bingham, Fuller, 

Blanchard, Gallinger, 

Bland, Geddes, 

Blount, Gibson, Eustace B-ound, Glass, 

Boutelle, Goff, 

Brady, Grosvenor, 

Bragg, Grout, _ , • Breckinridge, C. R. Guenther, 

Breckinridge.WCP.Hale, 

Browne, T. l't1. Halsell, 

Brown, C. E. Hammond, 

Brown, W. W. Hanback, 

Buchanan, Harmer, 

Buck, Hatch, 

Bunnell, Hayden, 

Burrows, Haynes, 

Butterworth, Heard, 

Bynum, Henderson, D. B. Cabell, Ilenderson, T, J. Campbe11, J. M. Hepburn, 

Campbell, J. E. Herbert, 

Cannon, Herman, 

Caswell, Hewitt, 

Catchings, Hill, 

Clardy; ·Hires, 

Collins, Hiscock, 

Comstock, Holmes, 

Conger, Hopkins, 

Crain, Houk, 

Croxton, Hutton, 

Curtin, Jackson, 

Cut-cheon, James, 

Davidson, A. C. Johnson, F. A. 

Davidson, R. H.:M. Johnston, T.J. Davis, Jones,J.H. 

Dockery, Kelley, 

Dorsey, Kekham, 

Dougherty, King, 

Dunham, Kleiner, 

Dunn, La Follette, 

Eden, Laird, 1 

Eldredge, Landes, 

Lanham, 

Lawler, 

Lehlbach, 

Lindsley, 

Little, 

Long, 

Lore, 

I..outitt, 

Lovering, 

Lyman, 

Markham, 

l'liartin, 

McComas, 

:1\IcKenna, 

McKinley, 

Millard, 

Miller, 

MilJiken, 

Mills, 

Mitchell, 

Moffa~t, 

Morgan, 

Morrison, 

:1\Iorrow, 

Murphy, 

Neece, 

Negley, 

Nelson, 

Norwood, 

O'Donnell, 

O'Ferrall, 

O'Hara, 

O'Neill, Charles 

O'Neill,J.J. 

Osborne, 

Outhwaite, 

Parker, 

Payne, 

Perkins, 

Peters, 

Pettibone, 

Pirce, 

Plumb, 

Price, 

Ranney, 

Reed,T.B. 

Reese, 

Riggs, 

Robertson, 

Rockwell, 

Rogers, 

Romeis, 

NOT VOTING-50. 

Aiken, Cooper, Hahn, 

Anderson, C. M. Cox, Hall, · Arnot, Culberson, Hilt, 

Barbour, Daniel, Irion, 

Bennett, Davenport, Johnston. T. D. Bliss, Dawson, Jones, J. T. Boyle, Dibble, Libbey, 

Brumm, Dingley, Maybury, 

Burleigh, Findlay, Morrill, 

Campbell, T. J. Foran, Muller, 

Candler, Funston, Owen, 

Carleton, Gay, Payson, 

Compton, Gilfillan, Phelps, 

So the amendment was not agr~ed to. 

~pringcr, 

c:;:orm, 

Swope, 

Taulbee, 

Taylor, J.l\I. 

Thrm·kmorton, 

Tillman, 

Townshend, 

'£urner. 

Ward,T.B. 

Warner, A. J. \Vheeler, 

WiiJis, 

Wilson, 

Worthi ogton. 

Rowell, 

Ryan, 

SadJer, 

Sawyer, 

Sayers. 

Scranton, 

Seney, 

Sessions, 

Smalls, 

Snyder, 

Spooner, 

Stahlnecker, 

Steele, 

Stephenson, 

Stewart, Charles 

Stone, E.B. 

Stone,W. J., of Ky. Stone, ,V.J., of l\Io. 

Strait, 

Struble, 

Symes, 

Taylor, I. IJ. 

Taylor, Zach. 

Thomas, J. R. Thomas, 0. B. 

Thompson, 

Trigg, 

Tucker, 

Van Eaton, Van Schnick, 

Viele, 

Wade, 

\Vadswortb, 

Wait, 

'Wakefield, 

Ward,J.H. 

Warner, William 

Weaver,A.J. 

Weaver,J.B. 

·\Veber, 

\Vellborn, 

West, 

White, A. C. White, Milo 

Whiting, 

Wilkins, • Winans, 

Wise, 

'Volford. 

Pulitzer, 

Rankin, 

Rice, 

Seymour, 

Singleton, 

Stewart, J. W. St. Martin, 

Swinburne, 

Tarsney, 

Taylor, E. B. Wopdburn. 

On motion of _Mr. WEAVER, of Iowa, by unanimous consent, the 

reading of the names wa-s dispensed with. 

The following additional pairs were announced: 

Mr. DAWSON with Mr. MORRILL. 

Mr. CULBERSON with Mr PAYSO~, for the rest of the day. 

The result of the vote was then announced as above recorded. 

The SPEAKER. The question now recurs on the amendment of the 

gentleman from Georgia fMr. HAl\ruOND] as a snbstitute ·for that of 

the gentleman from Illinois [l\lr. ADAMS], which the Clerk will again 

report. 

The amendment was again read. 

The House divided; and there were-ayes 65 . . 

Before the negative vote was announced, 

Mr. HAMMOND. It seems preferable that the other side shall pnEB 

it; therefore I am perfectly willing to allow them that privilege. 

So the amendment was rejected. 

The SPEAKER. The question now is on the amendment proposed 

by the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. ADAl\IS], which will be reported. 

'(he amendment was again read. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The Clerk rend as-follows: 

Amend clan e 5. Rule XX:f, a s follows: "5. All bills for impl'Ovement of rivers and harbors, and for the estabU bment or chnng-e of po t-routes, shall be delivered t<> the Clerk, as in the case of peti- tions and memorial , for reft=rence to appropriate committees." 

Amend Rule XXf by in erting the following a.s:clause 6: "No bill for the payment or adjudication of any private claim against the Gov- ernment shall be referred, except by unanimous consent, to any other than the 

following-named committees, viz: 'l'o tllC Committee on Invalid Pen ions, t-o the Committee on Pensions, to the Committee on Claims, to the Committee on 'Vnr Claims, to the Committee on Privat-e -Land Claims, and to the Committee on Accounts." 

Ur. EVERHART. I offer the amendment which I send to the desk. 

The Clerk rend as follows: 

Add to Rule XXI, as clause 7: "No vote shall be taken on the adoption of any conference committee report, or on the final pa age of any amended bill or joint resolution, before said re- port, bill, or resolution shall have been printed for the use of the members. 

And tbi~ rule shall be suspended. not by a two-thirds vote, as provided for the 

suspension of other rules, but only by unanimous consent." 

The amendment was not agreed to. 

The Clerk rend as follows: 

.RULE XXIll. 

Amend clau e 4, Rule XXIII. as follows: . . "4. In Committees of the Whole House business ou their Calendars ball be 

taken up in regular order, except bills for raising· revenue, general appropriation bills, and bills for the improvement of rivers and harbors, whichsha.ll have 

precedence, and when objection is made t-o passing over anybillorpropo ition, 

the committee ball thereupon rise and report such objection to the Ilouse, 

whieh shall decide, without debate, whether such bill or proposition shall be 

considered or laid aside for the present; whereupon the committee shall resume its sitting without further order of the Hous!:l." 

Mr. HOLMAN. I wish to call the attention of my co1Jeagne [Mr. 

CoBB] to the fact that the Committee on Public Lands is not placed in 

the same re11.tion to the business here as other committees. I suggest 

that the bills reported by the Committee on Public Lands shoUld be 

included in the exception. 

Mr. COBB. I will move to amend the claus~ so as to include bills 

reported by the Public Lands Committee. ·· The SPEAKER. The Chair supposes· the gentleman desires to have 

precedence for the same measures as are included in the other amendment. 

:Mr. HOLMAN. - Yes, sir; measures relating to the forfei tore of land 

grants. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair will state to the gentleman from Indiana. 

that bills 1·elating to forfeited land grants do not go into the Committee 

of the Whole House on the state of the Union. 

Mr. COBB. That is true. I will withdraw the amendment. 

l\fr. SPRINGER. I see that there is a light change here between 

the proposition which was referred to the Committee on Ru1es and the 

proposition as reported by the Committee on Rules in this respect: 

When objection is made to the consideration of a. bill under the rule as reported by the Committee on RulesThe committee shall thereupon rise and report such objection to the House, 

which shall decide without debate whether such bill or proposition shall be con- sidered or laid aside for the present. 

I desire to st~ike out the wordB "shall thereupon rise and report 

such objection to the House, which;" so that it will rea-d: 

The committee shall decide without debate whether such bill or propo ilion 

shall be considered or laid aside for the present. 

That is the form in which the proposition was referred to the com- mittee. And it seems to me if you are to transact any business in Committee of the Whole this amendment is necessary. If every time the 

objection is made you have to go back into the House where a. yea-andnay vote can be called and filibustering can be resorted to, it is-impossible a committee can ever reach any bill if a minority of the House is opposed to it. It seems to me all our arrangements for transacting busi- ness would be nullified if you require the committee to rise and report 

the objection to the House, where :tilibustering could begin and all proceedings with reference to the bill could be cutoff. I hope the amendment will be adopted as originally reported by my colleague . [Mr. 

MORRISON]. It seems to be in consequence of some omission and ac- cident that it ha.~ not been reported b:1ck. · Mr. MORRISON. There bas been no omission. My colleague is 
1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 337 

correct astowhatwas introduced. The committee thought differently 

and that the provision should stand as in the old rule. 

l\1r. SPRINGER. I am sorry that all that rigmarole is to be perpetuated, of the Committee of the Whole jumping up and going back 

and in and out every minute. I had hoped that we would have got rid 

of some of that rubbish. I withdraw the amendment. 

Mr. CANNON. I renew the amendment. I want to draw the attention of the House to the report of the Committee ot;t Rules in the 

line of the remarks of my colleague from the Springfield district [Mr. 

SPRINGER]. I would also like to call the attention of my friend from ~Iaine, oftbeCommittee on Rules [Mr. REED], who in former sessions 

and in this, by his able remarks on this rule, has made a convert of me completely ·on this subject. 

I want to say, as I understand this rule and its operation heretofore 

and as to what its operation will be in the future, that as it now is proposed to be adopted there is more delay by far in it than there is in any 

other provision that bas been talked about or advocated or believed in 

by gentlemen who have discussed these rules for the last two or three 

days. I submit if we are to have peace and harmony, and if everybody 

is to have his legislation done in a minute and a half after he wants it 

accomplished, we had better adopt the original preposition of my coll~gue [Mr. MORRISON] and reject this recommendation of the Committee on Rules. 

Mr. REED, of Maine. I have had the pleasure of describing to the 

House this interesting performance referred to by the gentleman from 

Illinois [Mr. SPRINGER]. I take baek nothing that I have said on that subject. PeisonaJly I desired to modify our rules so as to meet 

this suggestion of the gentleman, but it was thought not advisable by 

other gentlemen to do it. · I did not insist upon it, because the relief 

which I proposed to provide in the set of rules which I submitted to 

previous Congresses has been provided for in another way. 

My plan was to allow members aetingunder the direction of their committees to go to the Calendar of the Committee of the Whole and take 

up any bill by -name. The method now proposed by the Committee on Rules is that during the morning hour now provided for-the morn- ing hour for action-any committee may be allowed to call up, without regard to its order as reported, any bill, not only bills upon the 

l:fouse Calendar, which contain no appropriations of money, but also 

bills upon the Calendar of the Committee of the Whole on the state of 

the Union, which do appropriate money. It is only when we go to the 

Committee of the Whole, outside of the moring hour and by a vote of 

the House, that we shall take up bills in their order upon the Calendar. 

It will be seen that under these circumstances the method of procedure will be less cumbersome and less objectionable than when we had no morning hour for the consideration of bills and the House had no right to go into the Committee of the Whole to take up a particular 

bill. Still I must say I fully agree with the idea of the gentleman from 

Illinois that the procedure which he would abolish is cumbersome. 

The question being taken on the amendment of Mr. SPRINGER, there 

were-ayes 61, noes 73. 

So the amendment was not agreed to. · The next amendment proposed by the Committee on-Rules was r~ad, 

as follows: 

In Rule XXIV, clausel, strike out the word "joint" before the word" resolu- tions;" so as to make the clause read as follows: "1. Each 1\Ionday,morning during a session of Congress, immediately after the Journal of the proceedings of the last day's sitting ha.s been read and approved, the Speaker shall call all the States and Territories in alphabetical order for bills and resolutions for printing and reference without debate, pn which call joint and concurrent resolutions and memorials of St.ate and Territot·ial Legisla- tures may be presented and appropriately referred, and on this call only re olu- tions of inquiry directed to the heads of the Executive Departments shall be in order for reference to appropriate committees, which resolutions shall be re- ported to the House within one week thereafter." 

Mr. BURROWS. I wish to inquire whether it was the intention of 

the Committee on Rules that the presentation to the House of execu- tive communications and Senate messages upon the Speaker's table 

should be omitted on Mondays? 

Mr. HISCOCK. In the next clause of the rule the presentation of . uch business for reference to appropriate committees is provided for. 

Mr. BURROWS. But there seems to be a conflict between the two 

prov1s10ns. This clause provides that on each Monday morning, immediately after the reading of the J ourna.l, the Spea.ker shall call the 

States :md Territories. The next clause provides that '' after the Journal is read and approved each day the Spea.ker shall lay before the 

House for reference " executive communications and also bills, resolutions, &c., from the Senate. · 

The SPEAKER. The Chair will state, with the permission of the 

Honse, that in clause 2 of this rule, which will be next read, the words 

"except Monday" should be inserted, in line 307, after the words "each 

day; " otherwise these two rules would require two different things to 

be done on Monday immediately after the reading of the J ourJJal. 

l\1r. BURROWS. It appears to me that such an amen~ment is nec- essary. 

The proposed amendment to clause 1 was agreed to. 

Clause 2 ofRule XXIV, as proposed by the Committee on Rules, was rea.d, as follows: 

.After the Journal is read and appro"\'ed each day, the Speaker shall lay before 

XVII--22 

the House, for reference, messages from the President, reports and communi- cations from the beads of Departments and other communications addressed to the House, and also such bills, resolutions, and other ~essages from the Senat-e ns may have been received on the previous day. 

The SPEAKER. Is there objection to inserting in this clause after 

the words ''each day '' the words ''except Monday?'' This amendment seems to be necessary in order to prevent an apparent conflict in 

the rules; and if there be no objection it will be inserted. 

Mr. WARNER, of Ohio. Will it not be necessary also to make a change in the language at the close of the clause-" on the previous 

day?" There might be on the Speaker's table the accumulation of two 

days. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair supposes the rule would be construed 

as meaning the previous legislative day-the day when the House was 

last in session. . There being no objection, the proposed amendment was agreed to, 

The next amendment proposed by the Committee on Rules was read. 

as follows: 

In clause 3, Rule XXIV, strikeout the words" Journal is read and approved," and insert " business on the Speaker's table has been disposed of;" so aB to make the clause read: •• 3. On all days other than Monday, aB soon aB the business on the Speaker'~> 

table bas been disposed of, and on all Mondays (except the first and third in each month) after the call of States and Territories, there shall be a morning hour for reports from committees, which shall _be appropriately referred and printed and a copy thereof mailed by the Public Printer to each Member and Delegate; and the Speaker sha ll call upon each standing committee in regular order and then upon the select committees; and if the whole of the hour is not consumed by this call, then it shall be in order to proceed to the consideration of other business as hereafter provided; but if he shall not complete the call within the hour, he shall resume it in the succeeding morning hour where he left off." 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The next amendment of the committee was read, as follows: 

"Insert, as clause 5 of Rule XXIV, the following: .After the morning hour shall have been devoted to reports from committees (or the call completed), the Speaker shall again call the committees in regular order for one hour, upon which call each committee, on being named, shall have the right to call up for consideration any bill reported by it on a previous day on either the House or Union Calendar. And whenever any committee shall have occupied the said hour for one day, it shall not be in order for such com- mit-tee to designate any other proposition for consideration until all the other committees shall have been called in their turn; and when any proposition shall have 9ccupied two hours on this call it shall thereafter remain on the Cal- endar as unfimshed business and be taken up in its order: Provided, That when the hour herein prescribed shall expire while the Committee of the 'Vhole House on the state of the Union is considering a bill the said committee shall rise without motion therefor." 

l\1r. WARNER, of Ohio. It does not seem quite clear from the 

phraseology of this provision whether it will give a committee the right 

to call up more than one bill if the :first bill called up does not consume 

the hour. I suggest this point, so that the intention of the committee 

may be made plain. 

A MEMBER {to Mr. WARNER, of Ohio). l\Iove an amendment. 

l\fr. WARNER, of Ohio. I move to amend by inserting after the 

w01·ds "any bill" the words '-'or bills." 

The SPEAKER. Under this provision each committee will have one hour in which to call up bills. 

1\ir. WARNER, of Ohio. If that is the understanding. 

Mr. REED, of 1\Iaine. That will be the inference from the last 

clause. 

The amendment of the committee was agreed to. 

The Clerk read as follows: · 

6. After the hour under the preceding clause shall have been occupied, it shall be in order to proceed to the consideration of the unfinished business in which. the House may b a "\'e been engaged at an adjournment and at the same time e.ach <.lay thereafter, other than the first and third Mondays, until disposed of; and it shall be in order to proceed to the consideration of all other unfinished busi- ness whenever the class of business to which it belongs shall be in order. 

Mr. HOLMAN. I desire to know whattbeeffectofthisrule will be 

in reference to the business of the Committee on Public Lands. I call 

the attention of the gentleman from Illinois to the fact that it does not seem to be clear after :m hour has been given to a bill and it bas gone to 

the Calendar it will have priority. It seems to me that committees 

authorized to report at any time should haTe priority. Motions will 

be in order as at present to go into committee. It might be possible 

under these rules that bills reported from that Committee on the Public Lands might go to the Committee of the Whole. 

The SPEAKER. Bills forfeiting public lands? 

1\Ir. HOLMAN. Yes. 

The SPEAKER. If they do not make appropriations or grants of 

land they do not go there necessarily. 

The clause as read was agreed to. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

7. Unfinisberl "b usiness, if any, h :1sing been dispos ed of, motions shall be in onle t· as follows: First. That the Ilo u e re olve itself into the Committee of the Whole House on the st a te of the Union to consider, first, bills ra ising revenue and general 

appropriation bill , and then other busi ness on it Calendar. Seco nd. To proceed to the consid e ration of business on t.he House Calendar. Third. On Fri<.i>~y of each wee k , after the morning- h our, it shall be in order to entertR.in tt m otion t hat the Hou. e re olve itself into the Committee of the 'Vhole House to conside r bu ines.~ on the Private Ca lendar; and if this motion fail, then publie bu incss shall ue in order ns on othe r davs . 

Mr. WILLIS. I mo"e after the words ' 'general appropriation bills, '

11 
338 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. DECEMBER 18, 

in line 364, to insert "bills for the improvement of rivers and harbors;" so it will read: , 

First. That the House resolve itself into the Committee of the Whole House on the state of the Union to consider, first, bills raising revenue and general 

appropriation bills, bills for the improvement of rivers and harbors, and then 

other business on its Calendar. 

:Mr. MORRISON . . This is the old rule. These are simply transpositions, and because other clauses were inserted these came lower 

down. They are the old rules, word for word. 

Mr. WILLIS. I hope the gentleman from Illinois will make no objection to my amendment. 

Mr. MORRISON. I do make objection. These rule are the same as they were before. 

Ur. REED, of Maine. These rules give the same power as before. 

Mr. WILLIS' amendment was rejecte<I; and section 7, as read, was agreed to. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

Amend Rule XXVI as follows: 

''RULE XXVL 

"Friday in every week shall be set a.partforthe consideration of private busi- nes.~, unless otherwise determined by a two-thirds vote of the members present 

and voting." 

The SPEAKER. The amendment of the committee is to strike out 

the words "by a two-thirds vote of the members present and voting" 

and in lieu thereof to insert "by the House., 

Mr. WARNER, of Ohio. I do not see the necessity for that rule at 

all with the preceding clause. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I move to amend the report of the-committee by 

adding to Rule LIY the following: 

Bills of a private character heretofore printed by order of eitlier House shall not be again printed, unless it ap_P.ears that all printed copies have been ex- h . usted. 

If th:1.t rule be adopteditwill result in saving from forty-five to fifty 

thous:m:l dollars. It provides that bills of a private character heretofore printed by order of either House shall not be again printed unless 

it appeara that all printed copieS have been exhausted. 

Tbe amendment was disagreed to. . 

Mr. HI:-3COCK. I ask to turn back to line 313, on page 14, and 

strike out the words "asmayhave been received on the previous day" 

and insert'' as may have been received on preceding days;" so it will 

read: · 

2. After the Journal is read and approved each day, the Speaker shall lay before the House, for reference, messages from the President, reports and commu- nications from the heads of Departments aud other communications addressed to the House, and also such bills, resolution , and other messages from the Sen- ate as lllilY have been received on the previous day. 

111r. WARNEll, of Ohio. 1 I think that is necessary. 

Mr. HISCOCK. Yes; I th~ the gentleman's suggestion is a good 

one. 

The SPEAKER. Instead of reading "such bills, resolutions, and 

other messages from the Senate as may have been received on the previou day," that it shall read "as may have been received on previous 

days." 

Mr. MORRISON. That was proposed by the gentleman from Ohio. 

Mr. WARNER, of Ohio. There is no objection to it. 

The amendment was agreed tQ. 

Mr. MORRISON demanded the previous question on the adoption of 

the report as amended. . :Ur. DOUGHERTY. If the previous question be ordered would that 

preclude amendments to other portions of the rules? 

The SPEAKER. The other rules are not inserted in this report. 

Mr. MORRISON. ·But it adopts the old rules. 

The SPEAKER. It does. 

?tir. DOUGHERTY. It seems to me the motion does carry with it 

the adoption of the other rules. 

The SPEAKER. It does. 

Mr. MORRISON. Ordering the previous question carries with it the 

other rules. · The previous qu'estion was ordered; and under the operation thereof 

the report of the Committee on Rules as amended was adopted. 

Mr. MORRISON moved to reconsider the vote just taken; and also 

moved that the motion to reconsider he laid on the table. 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

ADJOURNMENT FOR THE HOLIDAY RECESS. 

Mr. MORRISON. I desire to call np the resolution providing for 

the adjournment for the holidays. 

Mr. BEACH. Does that require unanimous consent? 

Mr. MORRISON. I ask that the resolution be read. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

.Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate COJWUI-ring), That when the two Houses adjourn on Tuesday, December 22, 1885, they stand adjoruned until 

Tuesday, January 5, 1886. 

Mr. MORRISON. I ask that that be changed so as to read, "Monday, December 21," instead of "Tuesday, 22d." 

?tfr. HAMMOND. I move to amend by inserting "Saturday, the 

19th." 

Mr. KELLEY. The Senate has adjourned until Monday, and ca_n 

not take action upon that. 

Mr. HAIDIOND. Then I withdraw the amendment. 

The SPEAKER. The question is on agreeing to the resolution.sub· 

mitted by the gentleman from lllinois, as now modified, which provid cs for an adjournment from Monday next until Tuesday, January 5. 

Mr. BEACH. Mr. Speaker, is that resolution debatable? 

The SPEAKER. It is. 

Mr. BEACH. I would like to be heard for a. few moments. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair will recognize the gentleman for that 

purpose. 

1t1r. BEACH. . Mr. Speaker, I have always looked upon this holiday recess as a chilllish proceeding, discreditable to the House and detrimental to the public interest, and ever since I have been here I have 

inva.riably opposed it. My opposition in the past, however, has been in 

vain, and I have no hopes now of any better success and I do not care to repeat the arguments I have advanced on former occasions, but I 

deem it my duty to call the attention of members briefly to a. single 

fact before they proceed to vote upon this resolution. [Cries of" Vote!" 

"Vote!"] 

A very grave responsibility rests upon this House. The death of the 

Vice-President has given rise to a feeling of great disquietude throughout the country. There li! a. broadcast fear, which I rejoice to notice 

is not partisan in its nature, that in the event of the death of the President a crisis might arise which would shake not only the political but 

the business circles of the country to the center. 

When we consider the uncertainty of human life and the vast interests that depend upon the life of our Exec uti ve,'is it not time for us to 

pause and formulate some legislation which will effectuate the will of 

the people as expressed at the polls a year ago last November? Should 

not the Democratic House go as far in this direction as the Republican 

Senate? We are .in the second week of the session and as yet nothing 

has been done in this House to perpetuate the Democratic administration which the people after twenty-five years of Republican rule have 

called into power. The Administration is Democratic to-day, but how 

may it be to-morrow? · 

The morning papers of to-morrow may tell us that the President is 

dead and the Hepublican President of the Senate has taken the oath 

of office as Prt-c:ident of the United States. Should such a condition 

of things be allowed to exist? ·The Republican Senate, with a broad 

patriotism which does it honor, says no. What say we? Nothingsimply nothing. We propose to take a recess-of two weeks and leave 

this vital question until our return. [Cries of "Vote!" "Vote!'·'] 

Now, ?tir. Speaker, I claim that it is our duty to sit in these seats 

until this question of the Presidential succession is settled, so far as it 

is in the power of this House to settle it. Until it is settled there 

should be no adjournment whatever. A vast responsibility rests upon 

the members of this House, and I for one shall vote against this reso- lution. 

The SPEAKER. The question is on agreeing to the resolution submitted by the gentleman from lllinois. 

The resolution was agreed to. 

Mr. MORRISON moved to -reconsider the vote by which the resolution was agreed to; and also moved that the motion to reconsider be 

laid on the table. 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

ORDER OF BUSINESS • 

Mr. HAMMOND. Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that we can do no business to-morrow and will adjourn on MonQ.ay. It would relieve a great many gentlemen living at a distance from the capital who desire 

to go home if we can get consent that on to-morrow we may introduce 

bills as on Monday, and I ask unanimous <'.Onsent that there be a call 

of States to-morrow for that purpose. 

Several membe~-s objected. 

Mr. BROWNE, of Indiana. I move that when ·the House adjourn 

to-day it be to meet on Monday next. Evidently we will do no busi- ness to-morrow. [Cries of" No!" "No!"] 

The SPEAKER. The question is on agreeing to the motion of the 

gentleman from Indiana. · 

The House proceeded to divide. 

Mr. HISCOCK. I desire to makeperhapsnotexactly a parliamentary inquiry, but to ask if it is not probable that there may be some further amendments to these rules in reference to the creation of select 

committees, which business can be transacted to-morrow if the House 

is in session; and if we adjourn on Monday! unless the Speaker desires 

it, it may interfere with the constitution of the committees. 

1t1r. MORRISON. That is the object of our working· to-morrow. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair will sta.te that the CommitteeonRules 

has under consideration the propriety of the reappointment of certain 

of the select committees of previous Congresses. The Committee on Rules will nave a meeting to-morrow, a.nd hopes to make a report to 

the House before the recess and have the question disposed of, so as to 

1..--now what committees are to be provided for. 

1tlr. BROWNE, of Indiana. I did-not intend by my motion to interfere in any manner with the business to be transacted. I supposed that 
1885. CONGRESSION .A.L RECORD-HOUSE. 339 

there would not be anything done to-morrow in view of the fact that Baker; of John J. llurrow; of J. B. Bradberry; ofL. R. Burwell; ofZachobjection was made to the introduction of bills. I thought it likely ariah Bryant; of James Cook; of Paul C. Crafton; of J. W. Crafton; of 

that many members who had business in the Departments would have Isaac W. Coppedge; of J. C. Ferris; of G. H. Ramsey; of C. E. Robertan opportunity to-morrow to attend to such business, so as to be pre- son; of Mrs. MarthaS. Scales, widow of James H. Scales; of J. L. Trimpared to start for their homes on Monday. But as it seems that the ble; of William Erwin; ofL. K. Gillespie, heir of John C. Gillespie; and 

House may transact some business of importance on to-morrow, then I of W. W. Hutchison, administrator of Gillim J ackson ; of N. J. Heathask permission to withdraw my motion. cock; .Qf W. H. Holmes; of StephenS. Hale; of J. T. Peck; of George Tl~ere was no objection. E. Rust; of William P. Posey; of John A. Roe; of J. A. Roe; of James 

PENSIO~ TO r.rns. GID\'ERAL GRANT. E. Wood, of Gibson County, Tennessee; of James E. Wood, ofTrenton, Tenn.; ofEloe A. Harper; ofGeorge·w. Sims; of Z. C. Nolen; of 

Ur. MATSON. Mr. Speaker, the Senate to-day by unanimous con- Richard Hill, and of trustees of Humboldt Female College, in Gibson 

sent passed a bill to place the widow of General Grant upon the pen- County, Tennessee, asking compensation for property taken by the 

sion-rolls, and I am requested to ask unanimous consent of this House United States Army during the Jttte war-to the same committee. 

that that bill may be passed to-day. It is the usual bill, giving $5,ooq By Mr. GIFFORD: Memorial from the people of the proposed State 

a year to Mrs. Grnnt .during th~ remainder of h~r natural life. ';t'he of Dakota, praying for admission into the Union of States, also accom- same sum has been g1ven to WI~ows of ex-Presiden~ of the Umted . panying papers, consisting of a certified copy of the constitution of 

States heretofore, and I ask unaniiDo~ consent that It may be taken the proposed State and certified copy of the journal of the convention 

from the Speaker's table and put upon Its passage.. . which framed said constitution-to the Committee on Territories. ~e ~PEAKER .. Th~ Clerk will report the bill, after which the Bylilr. E. F. STONE: Petition of Frank Dalton, for correction of 

Chair~ ask for obJections. error in his account-to the Comrrlittee on Post--Offices and Post--Roads. 

T~e bill was read, as follows: ~ . . . By Mr. ZACH. TAYLOR: Memorial of the Tennessee State TeachBe it enacted, &o., That the ~ecretary of the ~tenor be, and he lS hereby, dt- ers' Association asking national aid to education-to the Committee on rected toplacethenameof Julia D. Grant, theWidowofthela.te UlyssesS. Grant, Ed ti ' . deceased, on the pension roll, and to pay her a. pension during her natural life at uca on. the rate of $5,000 a. year from and after the 23d day of July, A. D.1885. Also, petition of steamboatmen, asking the refunding license tax-to 

The SPEAKER. Is there objection to present consideration of the thA Committee on Claims. 

bill? By 1\Ir. TUCKER: Petition of John Kelly, of Alleghany County, 

There was no objection. _ Virginia, for ~roperty ~ken by or furnished ~o the Army of the Unit~d 

The bill was taken from the Speaker's table read three times, and States for therr use dunng the war of 1861, m Alleghany County, Vrrpassed. . ' ginia, and stated at $9,408.15-to the Committee on War Claims. 

Mr. MATSON moved to reconsider the vote by which the bill was 

passed; and also moved that.the motion to reconsider be laid on the 

table. 

The latter motion was ag~·eed to. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. 

ORDER OF BUSINESS. 

Mr. BROWNE, of Indiana. I now renew my appeal to the House, 

that we may have unanimous consent for the introduction of bills to- morrow. This will give the Clerk the whole time until after the adjournment to make up the record. And I wish to say that the. condition of my affairs at home, on account of sickness, is such that I would 

like to have an opportunity to-morrow of introducing some bills which 

I desire very much to have introduced. 

1\Ir. WARNER, of Ohio. I think the House can take up the Presidential succession bill. 

Mr. BROWNE, of Indiana. We can do that to-morrow or we can _do it now. · 

lli. PETERS. I would remark that it is in the knowledge of those 

who were members of the last Congress that the. introduction of bills 

then took two days. We can not get through on Monday if we begiQ. 

it then. 

The-SPEAKER. The gentleman from Indiana [Mr. BROWNE] asks 

unanimous consent that to-~orrow be set apart for the introduction of 

bills. 

Mr. WARNER, ofOhio. Not to interferewith the Presidential suc- cession bill. 

The SPEAKER. Is there objection to the request of the gentleman 

from Indiana ? 

Sc-,eral members objected. 

LEAVE OF ABSENCE. 

By unanimous consent, leave of absence was grailted to lli. DAVIDSON, of Alabama, until the lOth of January, 1886. 

LEAVE TO PRINT. 

By unanimous consent, leave was granted to lli. LAIRD to e:itend 

in the RECORD his remarks made during the discussion of the report on the rules. 

'1\Ir. MORRISON. I move that the House do now adjourn. 

The motion was agreed to; and accordingly (at 6 o'clock and 15 minutes p.m.) the House adjourned. 

PETITIONS, ETC. 

The following petitions and papers were laid on the Clerk's desk, 

under the rule, and referred as follows: 

By Mr. BRADY: Petitions and papers in the case of John B. Ege, 

of Petersburg, Va., for pay of printing materials and use and occupancy of building by the United States military forces during April, 

May, June, :md July, 1865, at Petersburg, Va., after he had taken 

the oath of allegiance to the United States-to the Committee on War 

Claims. 

By Mr. CLEMENTS: Memorial of Nancy Black, widow of Allen 

Black, -praying the reference of her claim to the Court of Claims under 

act of March 3, 1883-to the same committee. 

By 1\Ir. COMPTON: Petition of heir of Matilda Chase, deceased, for 

wood, &c., taken for army use near Annapolis, 1\Id., during the war of 

1861, and stated at $8; 950-ta the same committee. 

By Mr. GLASS: PetitionsofW. A. Allison; of Josiah Baker; ofJoshua 

SATURDAY, December 19, 1885. 

The House met at 12 o'clock m. Prayer by the Chaplain, .Rev. W. · 

H. MILBURN, D. D. 

The Journal of yesterday's proceedings was read and approved. 

REP AIRS IN PATL~T OFFICE. 

1\Ir. BUTTERWORTH. I ask unanimous consent to take from the 

Speaker's table the joint resolution (H. Res. 1) authorizing the Secretary of the Interior to use a portion of the contingent fund to fit up 

rooms for the Commissioner of Patents. It has been returned to the 

House with an amendment by the Senate, which is merely verbal. I 

ask concurrence in the Senate amendment. 

The amendment of the Senate was read, as follows: 

In line 5, after the word "necessary," insert the words "to fit up and ; " so that it will read: · "That the Secretary of the Interior be, and be is hereby, authorized to use so much of the contingent fund, not exceeding $600, as was appropriated by act of 

1\larcb 3, 1885, for the use of the Interior Department as may be necessary to fit up and put in proper repair the rooms in the Interior Department building which have been-assigned by the Secretary for the use of the Commissioner of 

Patents." 

The SPEAKER. Is there objection to the present consideration of 

the Senate amendment? 

There was no objection. 

The amendment of the Senate was concurred in. 

Mr. BUTTERWORTH moved to reconsider the vote by which the 

amendmentwasconcurredin; and_alsomoved that themotion to recon- sider be laid on the table. • 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

NORTH, CENTRAL, AND SOUTH AMERICAN EXPOSITION. 

TbeSPEAKER. TbeChair submitsacommunication received from 

the president of the North, Central, and South American Exposition, 

with the request that it be laid before the House. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

THE NORTH,CENTRAL,.U."D SoUTH AMERICAN EXPOSITION, · ltew Orleans, Deoembfr 15,1885. 

DEAR Sm: The board of management of the North, Central, and South Amer· 

icanExposition have desjgnated TuesdD.y, December 29, as "American Congres- sional Day," and all members of the House are respectfully invited to be present 

upon that occasion. 

The lea-ding object of the exposition is to develop more intimate commercial 

and social relations between the various nations of the three Americas, and it rs earnestly hoped that members of the House may favor us with their presence, and thereby lend the weight_ of their influence to the promotion of this impor- tant work. 

Very respectfully, 

· Hon. J. G. CARLISLE, 

Speaker of the House. 

S. B. McCONN! CO, Pres-ident. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. M:r. Speaker, I desire to say that the exposition at which the members of the H'ouse are invited to be present is one of vast importance to the people of the United States. An opportunity will be afforded to meet with representatives from all the governments of Mexico and Central and South America. Exhibits will 

be found therefrom nearlyall those states as well as from all the States