• 

18'19. CONGRESSI0NAL RECORD-SENATE. 593 

a. pension be granted Andrew J. Horton-to the Committee on In- sentatives of Israel Dodge, deeeased,·was read twice by its title, and 

valid Pensions. referred to the Committee on Private Land Claims. 

By Mr. POTTER: The petition of ladies of Dobb's Ferry Presby- ' EXECU~ COl't:DI"GNICATIONS. 

terian church, Westchester County, New York, for such le~lation The VICE-PRESIDENT laid before the Senat& a communication as will make effective the anti-polygamy law of 1!36'2-to tne Com- from the Secretary of War, transmitting a letter from the Chief of 

mittee on the Judiciary. · Engineers, covering a copy of a preliminary report from Captain A. 

By Mr. PRICE: The petition of th~ Women's Christian ':fe~per- N. Damrell, Corps of Engineers, on the survey being made in accord- 'mce Union and 33 others of Charles City, Iowa, for a comiDlSston of ance with an item in the river a!ld harbor act of June 18, 1878, proinquiry concerning the alcoholic liquor traffic-to the same commit- vi ding for the improvement of the Mobile Harbor; which was referred 

ooe. · to the Committee on Commerce, and ordered to be printed. By Mr. RANDOLPH: The petition of Enoch Seal, for back pay and He also laid before the Senate a communication from the Secretary 

bounty-to the Committee on Military Affairs. of War, transmitting a lett.er from the Chief of Engineers and a copy 

By Mr. REAGAN: The petition of Enoch Davies, R. T. Aycock, of a report of Major C. R. Suter, Corps of Engineers, on the result of 

Robert Keen, and 102 others, for an appropriation of $15,000 to im- an examination, maae in compliance with the requ,irements of sec- prove the canal connecting Galveston Bay and the Brazos River-to tion 2 of the river and harbor act of June 18, 1878, of the Missouri 

the Committee on Comm.occe. River at and near its junction with the Kansas River, and the estiBy Mr. RYAN: The petition of women of Carbondale, Kansas, for mated cost of its improvement; which was referred to the Committee 

legislation to make ea:e~tive the anti-polygamy law of 1862-to th~ on Commerce, and ordered to be printed. 

Committee on the JudiCiary. · COURTS IN COLORADO. 

By Mr. SAPP: The petition of ladies of Cass County, Iowa, of sim- The VICE-PRESIDENT. The Chair will call the attention of the ilar import-to the same committee. ~ . Also, the petition of ladies of Tabor, Iowa, and vicinity, of similar ~nator froiD; Vermont [Mr. E~M~-ns] to ~he. bill (S. N?.,763) ~ p~o- import-to the same committee. VIde for holdin~. terms of the crrcmt and district. courts m the ~~ct 

By Mr. Sl\IITH, of Pennsylvania : The petition of the Legislature of Col?rado, Which was report~d from the Co~ttee o~ the J udimary 

of Oregon, for an appropriation of $35'0,000 for the improvement of and laid o!l the table some trme ago, on which he WlShed. to make 

Coos Bay-to the Committee ori Commerce. ~~orne mot10n. . . . , Aljo, the petition of G. Westinghouse & Co. and others, against ·· Mr. EDMUNDS. I think I moved at that t1me that ~he Senate dl8-

the extension of the Birdsell clover-huller patent-tO the Committee agree to the amen~ent of the Honse of Representatives and ask a on Patents. conference, and .I thmk th!l't was ordered. The message should have · Also, the petition of manufacturers of lasts, citizens of New York, been sent. I said that owmg to the absence of the S~nator from ~olagainst the extension of the shoe-last patent of Nathaniel Jonea-to orado [Mr. T:ELLE~] I would. move a confe;rence, whiCh would brmg 

the same committee. the ma~er to a pomt where It ~uld b~ disposed of one way or the , By Mr. STONE, of Michigan: The petition of Samuel Wooldridge, otlie~ without delay .. I had the rmpress10n that that o~derwas m~e, 

for remuneration for losses sustained by an alleged unlawful prosecn- and m that ca~e the bill sh?uld go back to the-House w1th that actJOD. 

tion by United States officials-to the Committee of Claims. of the Senate m regard to It. . . By Mr. TUCKER: 'l'he petition of J.D. Tucker, to have refunded Th~ VICE-PRESIDENT was, by unammous consent, authorized to 

to him certain sums alleged to have been improperly collected from appomt the conferees on the p~ of. the Senate;, and Mr. Co~KLING, 

laim by United States revenue officials-to the Committee of Ways Mr. HoWE, and :Mr. DAVIS of lllino1a were appomted. 

ana Means. . PETITIONS ~-n 1\IEl\IORIALS. 

By Mr. VAN VORHES: The petitien of. Colonel Robert E. Phillips Mr. HOAR. I present the petition of Dr.~. A. Hagen, professor of 

and 50 others, of Middleport, Ohio, for the correction of the company natural history at Harvard University; Professor Smith, of Yale Colrolls of the First Minnesota Battery, to correspond with the affidavits lege; P.R. Uhler, ~e president of the Maryland Academy of Science, 

of Captain Clayton and others, now on file in the War Department- and-· several other distinguished entomologists of the United States 

to the Committee on Military Affairs. connected with various universities and the Government, praying 

By Mr. WAIT: The petition of Eliza Bin~ham and 85 others, citizens that the work of Professor Townsend Glover, illustrating the insects 

of Sprague, Connecticut, for such legislatiOn as will make effective of the North American Continent, may be purchased. This work is 

the anti-polygamy law of 1862-to the Committee on the Judiciary. offered to the Government by Professor Glover at the price of the . Also, the petition of S. A. Williams and 32 others, citizens of Sa).em, engravings which accompany it, without imposing as a condition any 

Connecticut, of similar import-to the same committee. compensation to him for his large lahor. I can say, from a personal 

Also, tfie petition of Mrs. Alfred White and others, citizens of Gro. examination of Professor To,wnsend Glover's work, that it is of the 

ton, Connecticut1 of similar import-to the same committee. ve-ry greatest importance in disclosing the habits and the means of · Also, the petitiOn of Mrs. Alva A. Hurd and others, citizens of Scot- extermination of the insects injurious to vegetation. 

land, Connecticut, of similar import-to the same committee. I also present Professor Glover's own memorial proposing to transBy Mr. WIGGINTON: The petition of T. T. Hannah and 185 others, fer the entomological works to the Government at the cost of the 

for legislation requiring au inquiry into and definition of the acts of engraved plates; and I call the special attention of my friend, the 

July Z7, 1866, -and June 28, 1870, granting lands to the Southern Pa- chairman of the Committee on Agriculture, to this inatter. 

cifio Railroad' Company of California-to the same committee. I move that the petition and the memorial which I have presented 

By Mr. WILLIS, of Kentucky: Papers relating to the bill for the be printed and referred to the Committee on Agriculture. 

relief of F. Stitzel-to the Committee of Ways and Mea.ns. The motion was agreed to. 

Also, a paper relating to the bill for the relief of James H9pwood- Mr. McPHERSON presented a memorial of the religions Society 

to the Committee of Claims. of Friends of the States of Pennsylvania, Delaware, and New Jersey, Also,.papers relating to the bill for the relief of Edward B. Clarke- remonstrating agatnst the transfer of the Indian Bureau from the 

to the Committee for the District of Columbia. · Department of the Interior to the War Department; which was • Also, papers relating to the bill for the relief of W. L. Carey-to referred to the select committee to consider the subject of the trans-

' the Committee on War Claims. fer of the Indian Bureau to the War Department . . Also, papers relating to the pension claim of Mrs. Sallie T. Ward- Mr. WHYTE presented the petition of R. H. Flower and others, 

to the Committ-ee on Invalid P~nsions. citizens of Howard County,.Maryland, praying for the passage of the 

bill (H. R. No. 4234) granting arrears of pension; which was ordered 

te lie on the table. 

IN SE&.TE. 

TuESDAY, Jamtary 21, 1879. 

Prayer by the Chaplain, Rev. BYRON SUNDERLANl), D. D. 

The Journal of yesterday's proceeCilings wa~ read and approved. 

HOUSE BILLS REFERRED. 

The following bills, receiv~ from the Honse of Representatives, were severally read twice by their title, and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary: 

A bill (H. R. No. 850) for the relief of Daniel W. Perkins, of East 

Saginaw, Michigan; and • A bill (H. R. No. 4553) for reviving and contin$g the court of 

commissioners of Alabama claims, and for the distribution of the un- appropriated moneys of the Geneva award. - · The bill (H. R. No. 2160) for the relief of the heirs of Samuel P. 

Todd, deceased, late a purser in the United States Navy, was read 

twice by its title, and referred to the Committee on Naval Affairs. 

The bill (H. R. No. 58611 for the relief of the heirs ancllega.l repreVIII-38 

Mr. PATTERSON. I present a petition of citizens Qf the Territog of Dakota, praying the passage of the bill providing for an additiOnal associate justice for the supreme court of the Territory of 

Dakota. I will state that th~ ·bill providing fer such an additional 

judge has been reported by the committee favorably, and this petition sets out in full the reasons why the bill should pass. I move that it be printed f9r the information of the Senate, ancllie upon the 

table. 

The motion was agreed to. 

Mr. CONKLING. I have just received a petition from numerous citizens in New York, merchants and-ship-owners, prayin~ relief in a respect which they state in the legislation to ·be had toucning the so- called Geneva award. I move its reference to the Committee on the 

Judiciary. 

The motion was _agreed to. · . 

Mr. HOWE presented additional papers in support of the bill (S. 

No. 15.SG) granting a pension to Fannie Lull; which were referred to 

the Committee on Pensions. 

Mr. JOHNSTON presented the petition of Dr. Asa Wall, of Virginia, praying far the removal of his political disabilities; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. 

• 
,, 

594 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. JANUARY 21, 

REPORTS OF CO~TTEES. 

Mr. MAXEY, from the Committee on Military Affairs, to whom was referred a letter from the Secretary of War, communicating information in relation to the establishment of a military post in the vicinity 

of El Paso, Texas, and recommending an appropriation for the purpose, submitted a report, accompanied by a bill (S. No. 1662) making an appropriation for the purchaBe of a site and for the erection 

thereon of a military post at El Paab, Texas. 

The bill was read twice by its title, and the report was ordered to 

be printed. · MI·. SPENCER, from the Committee on Military .Affairs, to whom was referred the petition of Milton W. Triplett, late corporal of Company F, Fifth Kentucky Cavalry Volunteers, praying indemnity for a horse lost in tke military service of the United States, asked to be 

discharged from its further consideration, and that it be referred to 

the Committee on 9laims; which was agreed to. 

He also, from the Committee on Military Affairs, to whom was referred the petition of Isaac F. Moore, late private Company H, Twenty~fonrth Regiment Kentucky Volunteers, praying indemnity 

for a horse lost in the military service 8f the United States, asked to 

be discharged from its further consideration, and that it be referred 

to the Committee on Claims; which was agreed to. 

He also, from the Committee on Miatary Affairs, to whom was re- ferred the bill (H. R. No. 2472) for the relief of .Elias B. Bell, late 

private of Company E, Thira Regiment West Virginia Cavalry, re- _p.orted it with an am~ndment, and submitted a report thereon; which was ordered to be pnnted. • . · He also, from the same committee, to whom was referred the bill 

(S. No. 174) for the relief of Thomas B. Hunt, reported it with an amendment, and submitted a report thereon; which wa~ ordered to 

be printed. 

Mr. BURNSIDE, from the Committee on Military .Affairs, to whom was referred the bill (H. R. No. 541) for the relief of William H. Carmen, reported it without amendment, and submitted a report thereon; 

which was ordered to be printed. 

He also, from the sime committee, to whom was referred the bill 

(H. R. No. 4407). for the relief of .Andrew Ivory, reported it without 

amendment, and submitted a report thereon; which was ordered to 

be printed. 

He also, from the same committee, to w~om was referred the bill 

(H. R. No. 635) for the relief of Moses F. Carleton, late second lieutenant of Company I, Fourth Michi~an Infantry Volunteers, submitted an adverse report thereon, which was ordered to be printed; 

and the bill was postponed indefinitely. 

Mr. MORRILL, from the Committee on FiBance, to w~pm was re- ferred the bill (H. R. No. 5808) to facilitate the refunding the national 

debt, reported It without amendment. · Mr. BUTLER, from the Co:m.lil.ittee on Military Affairs, to whom was referred the bill (S. No. 1271) for the relief of Jenkins .A. Fitzger~ld, 

reported it with an amendment, and submitted a report thereon; 

which was ordered to be printed. , Mr. KELLOGG, from the Committee on Pensions, to whom was re- ferred the bill (H. R. No; 2943) authorizing the Sectetary of the Interior "to place upon the pension-roll the name of John Bysel, late 

private Company. H, Sixth Regiment Ohio Volunteer Cavalry, reported 

adversely thereon; and the bill was postponed indefinitely. 

He also, from the same committee, ta whom was recommitted the 

bill (H: R. No. 1304) granting a pension to .Anna 1\f. Clippinger, re- ~rted. it without amendment, and submitted a report thereon; which was ordered to be printed. 

· CHANGE OF REFERENCE. 

Mr. PLUMB. Yesterday the bill (S. No. 1650) to authorize the Secretary of the Treasury to ascertain and report to Congress the amount 

of money expended and indebtedness assumed by the State of Kansas 

in repressing invasions and suppressing Indian hostilities, was introduced by me and by mistake referred to the Committee on Indian · Affairs. The bill should go to the Committee on Military Affairs. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. That change of reference will be made. 

t • BILLS DITRODUCED. 

Mr. WITHERS asked, and by unanimons consent obtained, leave 

to introduce a bill (S. No. 1663) for creating a national public health 

organization ; which was read twice by its title, and referred to the 

select committee to in~stigate and report the best means of preventing the introduction and spread of epidemic disea~es. · .Mr. EDMUNDS. .At the request of my honorable friend the Senator from Michigan [Mr. CHRIBTIANCY] who is still ill this morning 

and unable to be here, I present for him and in his name a bill without previons notice. 

By unanimons consent, leave was granted to intro·duce a bill (S. 

No. 1664) in reference to proof of marriage in cases of bigamy; which 

was read twice by its title, and referred to the Committee on the 

Judiciary. . ¥-r· MATTHEWS asked, and·by unanimous consent obtained, leave 

to mtroduce a bill.(S. No. 1~) to prevent the introduction of con- tagious or infectious diseases into the United States, and to establish a bureau of public health; which was read twice by its title, andreferred to the select committee to investigate and report the best means of preventing the introduction and spread of epidemic diseases. 

Mr. KERNAN asked, and by unanim!>us consent obtained, lea'\"e to 

introduce a bill (S. No. 1666)for the relief of the trustees of the Cor- .coran Gallery of Art; which was read twice by its title, and referred 

to the Committee on .Appropriations. 

. Mr. DORSEY asked, and by unanimous consent obtained leave to 

mtroduce a bill (S. No. 1667) to provide for ascertaining and settling 

pri;vate ~d c!aims in certain States and Terri~ries ; which was read 

twice by Its title, and referred to the Comnnttee on Private Land 

Claims. 

Mr. JONES, of Nevada, asked, and by unanimous consent obtained 

leave fi? i"!ltroduce a bill (S. No .. 1668) for the relief of JohnM. Dorsey 

and William F. Shepeard; whwh wa~ read· twice by its title and 

referred to the Committee on Claims. ' · 

l\Ir. EATON asked, and by unanimous consent obtained leave to 

introduce a ~ill (S: No: 1669) for the relief of .Austin G. Da'y; which was read twiCe by Its title, and referred to the Committee on Patents. 

¥r· HOWE (by request) asked, and by unanimons consent obtained, leave to introduce a bill (S. No. 1670) to regulate and define ~he ~ank of the staff of the Marine Corps; which was read twice by 

Its title, and referred to the Committee on Naval .Affairs. 

:Mr. PATTERSON asked, and byunanimousconsent obtained leave 

to introduce a bill (S. No. 1671) to authorize the commissioners'of the D~trict o~ Co~umbia to make deeds in certain cases; which was read 

twiCe by Its t1tle, and referred to the Committee on the District of 

Columbia. 

1\;lr· MA.~!VS asked, ~nd by un~nimous consent obtained, leave 

to mtroduc~ ~ Jomt resolution (S. R. No. 50) rel~t~ve to ascertaining 

and determmmg the amount of money due to mt1zens of the Uvited 

States from the government of Nicaragua for injuries infiioted on the l~th of October, 1855, at Virgin Bay; which was read twice ·by its 

title, and referred to the Committee on Foreign Relations. 

Mr. CHAFFEE aske'd ,and by unanimous consent obtained, leave 

to introduce a joint resolution ( S. R. No. 51) dire6ting the cancellation 

of the one and two dollar United States notes; which was read twice 

by its title, and ordered to lie on the table. 

PAPERS WITHDRAWN AND REFERRED. 

On motion of Mr. DAVIS, of Illinois, it was 

Ordered, That the petition and papers of Charles Robidon be taken from the ftlee 

of the Senate and referred to the Committee on Claims. 

• C~O~ CROXTOY. 

Mr. BECK. I desire to ask leave to Withdraw the papers of Caroline Croxton, widow of John T. Croxton, praying to be allowed a pension, wh'ich was re11orted upon adversely yesterday by the Committee on Pensions because the ca-se had not been before the Commissioner of Pensions. The object of the withdrawal is to lay the papers 

before the Commissioner of Pensions, and that is in accordance with 

the report of the committee. 

The VIC~-PRESIDENT. The order will be granted, under the 

condition imposed by the rule. 

GEORGUiE THOMAS. 

Mr. VOORHEES. Yesterday I reported a bill (H. R. No. 4687) granting a pension to Georgine Thomas, widow of General Charles Thomas, 

deceased, adversely, and it was indefinitely postponed. I move to 

reconsider the vote indefinitely postponing the bill, and ask that it 

be recommitted to the Committee on Pensions. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT1. To this the Chair hears no objection, and 

that order will be entered. · 

DISTRICT STREET RAILWAYS. 

Mr. CONKLING submitted the following resolution; which was ·considered by unanimous consent, and agreed to : -

Resolved, That the Committee on the District of ~olumbia be instructed to inquire whether one of the two street railway tracks on the bridge over the e~ 

branch of tho Potomac River near the the navy-yard should not be removed. 

NATIONAL ROAD IN :\IA.RYI.Alo.""D. 

Mr. WHYTE. I ask unanimons consen~ of the Senate to take up 

House bill No. 4200, reported by the Judiciary Committee, whichf'ves 

the consent of the United States to the transfer of a portion o the 

National Road to one of the counties of the State of Maryland. 

There being no objection, the Senate, as in Committee of the Whole, 

proceeded to consider the bin (H. R. No. 4200) relating to the National Road in the State of Maryland, and to give consent of the 

United States to a certain act of the General .Assembly of Maryland 

in relation to said road. It gives the consent of the United States to an act of the General .Assembly of the State of Maryland, passed at 

the January session, 1878, chapter 158, entitled ".An act to transfer to 

the counties of .Allegany and Garrett the control of theN ational Turnpike or United Stat.es Road through said counties, and to provide for 

the maintenance thereof." · The bill was reported from the Committee on the Judiciary with 

an amendment to add the following proviso: . . . 

PrO"vided, That this consent shall have no effect in respect of creating or recogt- nizing any duty or liability what-ever on the part of tho United States. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The bill was reported to the Senate as amended, and the amendment was concurred in. 

The amendment was ordered to be en~ossed and the bill to be read a third time. · T4e bill was read the third time, and pissed. 

• 
\ 

. 

1879. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- SENATE. 595 

U:I:IATILLA L~~5-COLVILLE RESERVATION. 

Mr. ANTHONY. I ask the Senate to proceed to the regular order 

aceording to the resolution passed yesterday. 

Mr. MITCHELL. I ask unanimous consent to present an amendment 

to a bill; and I should like to make a few remarks, not exceeding five 

minutes, if I can have the unanimous consent of the Senate for that 

purpose. :Mr. ANTHONY. I have DO objection. Mr.MITCHELL. I will occupy I think not exceedin~ three minutes. 

The amendment I present is in the nature of a substttute for the bill 

(S. No. 239) providing for the removal of the Walla Walla, Caym;es, 

and Umatilla tribes and bands of Indians to a permanent reservation, 

and to open to settlement the Umatilla reservation in Oregon. .It is a matter of so much importance and of such pressing interest that I 

desire to say a· word or two and to quote from a document I hold in 

my hand which treats of this general subject in a very sensible manner. The treaty the United States has with these Indians expires in 

April next. I believe it is considered by everybody who knows anything about the matter, certainly by the Indian department, by the 

Commissioner of Indian Affairs, by all the agents who have investigated the matter, by all the citizens in our country, and by everybody else, that in the interest of peace on our frontiers, in the interest 

of the preservation of the lives of both whites and Indians, something 

should be done at once, at the present session of Congress, looking to 

the removal of these Indians from their present reservation. 

The bill has been pending before the Committee on Indian Affairs 

for some time. Amendments have been suggested by certain mem- bers of the committee from time to time, and also by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. I have prepared an embodiment in the paper 

I hold in my hand of several amendments suggested. 

The object of the bill is to provide that the President of the United 

States shall treat with these Indians, and with .their consent remove them to the Colville reservation in Washington Territory. This 

amendment also provides that it shall be the duty of the commissioners desiw;tated by the President to investigate and report upon 

tke advisability and the practicability of enlargin~ the present Colville Indian reservation. That, however, is but an mcidental matter, 

but I think it very important that it should be in this bill. 

The bill as thus amended, the passage of which I propose to insist 

on, and to which I call the especial attention of the honorable chair- man of the Committee on Indian Affairs and that Committee, provides 

imply that the President shall designate three commissioners who 

shall treat with these Indian.s and with their consent remove them to 

the Colville reservation. 

One word or two in regard to the character of the Colville reserva- tion, and as to what kind of a country it is. I present these views in 

order that this information may be before the Indian Committee. I 

read from a statement made by a gentleman who is familiar with that 

whole country, and who has resid~d in that valley for fif.teen years. 

He says: 

Colville Valley at the present time has comparatively few white settlers owing to the fact that the market for its agricultural and other productions is too remote and the means of transportation too limited and expensive to induce a large settle- ment there. .And the few white and half-breed families now living in the valley could, for these reasons, be induced to sell their possessi(mS for a reasonable price to the Government, in case it should be deemed advisable to make the purchase. 

That is, to extend the limits gf the reservation. The reservation is 

very large now. · · 

At its last session the Washington Territory Legislature passed a memorial asking the proper authorities of the United States Government to set apart this section 

of the country as a general reservation for the Indians in the Columbia Valley. This was after mature discussion and a. proper consideration of the whole subjoot 

of Indian reservations. . 

I will state that the people who compose the Legislature of Washington Territory know more about Indian matters in that locality 

than . any Commissioner of Indian Affairs, or any Indian agent on this side can possibly know, no matter how intelligent be may be or how much attention he may have given to the general subject. 

Again, he says: 

In my judgment. it was a. wise conclusion at which that Legislature arrived, ·and 

if earned out would be alike beneficial to both, the whites and the Indians. The reaaons for this belief I now propose to give. The general face of the country embraced within the limits of the proposed reservation is mountainous and hilly, with portions of it timbered. Game, such a-s deer, elk, bears, &c., is abundant and not difficult to take. The Columbia, the A.kinokane, and the Spokane Rivers, with 

their hundreds of tributar:v streams interlacing the whole Territory, would afford an inexhaustible supply of salmon and other fish as subsistence for the Indians. 

Camas- . 

My friend from Iowa does not know what camas is, I suppose. 

Mr. ALLISON. What is it' 

Mr. MITCHELL. It is food, bread for the Indians, a root that the 

Indians eat and live on very often for months. 

Camas and other nutritions roots, as well as berries, have from time immemorial 

been gathered by the Indians in many localities and in the !!1"6atest abundance, 

within the limits of this Territory. .And while the land suita'ble for cultivation is not large, it is amply sufficient to support a popnlation of twenty-five thousand 

ouls. 

The Cohille Valley, in which the arable land is chiefly found. is about eighty miles 

in le~rrth, and on an average of from two to five in width; of great fertility, capa. ble of raising wheat, oats, barley, and other kind.s of g1'8in and vegetables common to ~~n. These can, by proper cultivation, be raised in the greatest abundance. 

EveryUJin" nece sary for the subsistence of the Indians is here at hand. Grain and vegetables and fruit for the till em of the soil ; game for the hunters; and fish 

for the fishers. To all these there i'! to be added the fur·beariDg animals in great 

abundance for those who should prefer the life of the trapper. This is shown. by the repart of the Secretary of the Interior for 1873-'74 by which it appears that the 

'Colville Indians were ninth on the list in the quantity of furs· produced by Indian 

tribes. In short the proposed reservation is capable of affordin~ subsistence for 

thirty or forty thousand inhabitants without any danger of starvataon, oven though they 1ive in the manner in which Indians are accustomed to live. 

The other advantage it would possess for a reservation is its remoteness from 

the great thoroughfare.of travel and trade. With no highway leading through it 

and no white settlements likely to be in close proximity, there woul<l be but little 

intercourse between the different races.; and great as are its ad vantages, this in 

my judgment would be the greatest of all. IsOlated from the white settlers and remote from dissolute and depl'aved men, discord, dissension, aud war would cease to "exist between them and the Indians. We have seen tho ovil m~cts of this en- croachment of white settlers upon the borders of Indian reservatiOU!! in the Mouoc 

and, more 1·ecently, in the Nez Perce and Bannack Indian wars; am1 even now the 

=fr~~~re::e::a.~~:h~;e~i~f:~f ~st£!~:~t-:~ fgl~~dt:! ~~~~ tion where it would necessarily be surrounded by t}le settlements of thriving and 

industrious farmers. The cattle and other stock of the whites are liable to stray on the uninclosed land of the Indians, and the bands of wild horses belonging to the latter are continuonsly trespassing upon the farms of the whites. Civilized is 

beating against savage life, and the inevitable result is sure to follow, discord, 

dissension, and strife that may end in war. I have recently seen it stated in the 

public journals that ;vou have recommended in your last report that th6. Umatilla 

Indians be removed from their present reservation. This in my judgnicnt is a. wise 

conclusion. That reservation is traversed by many highways, over which mer- chandise of all kinds is transported every day in the :.ear. Besiues, over it is the 

great overland way to the Padfic coast, over whlch the United States mails are daily carried. I beg leave, however, to dissent altogetherAnd I will state that the people of Oregon and Washington Territory dissent altogetherfrom the proposal to transfer those Indians to the Yakima. reservation. Many of 

the objections now existing in regard to the Umatilla. are applicable to the Yakima. 

reservation. It is in like manner stUTOunded by white settlers, daily liable to 

misnnderstandings and collisions with the Indians on the reservations. Moreover, 

the facilities for taking fish and hunting game are not to be compared with those on the Colville reservation; and these after all are what the Indians in their tribal state rely upon for food. Again, the Umatilla and Colville Indians hold the same religious views and have been taught in the same religious faith. 

I call the special attention of the Committee on Indian Affairs to 

that. The Yakimas are :Methodists; the Umatillas, Cayuses, and 

Walla Wallas are Catholics; t.he Colvilles are under the Catholic 

d.enomination, and it would be the height of un wisdom, I think, to 

undertake to locate these Catholics, the :fishing and hunting Indians 

of the Umatilla re-servation, on a reservation where the Met.hodists, 

the farming Indians, the Yakimas, are now'located. 

He says further : 

I am fally persuaded that if left to the determination of the Indians themselvesAnd the bill proposes to do thatthey would far rather be sent to Colville than to the Yakima reservation, and that 

they would finally be more contented there than in any other place to which they oould be sent. This matter of their removal is a matter of most momentous con- cern as well to the Indians as to the whites .. 

That i& a fact. The war of last year is evidence of this fact. Hundreds of our people have been slaughtered by these very Indians, and 

occasionally Indians are killed by the whites. Perpetual collisions are occurring there; there is an irrepressible conflict. 

Mr. ALLISON. May I ask the Senator from Oregon, who is quite 

familiar with thb> reservation, to state the reason or occasion of the 

collisions between the Indians and the white settlers T 

Mr. MITCHELL. It would take some time; but I know of no Indian having been injured on the Umatilla reservation by any white man until after a large number of Umatilla Indians, who had been 

fed and pampered by the Government for twenty years on the Umatilla reservation, had left the reservation and joined the hostiles and 

committed depredations upon the white settlements surrounding the 

reservation. This, I admit, so exasperated the white settlers, and 

justly, too, all over that country that then and after that certain perhaps unjustifiable assaults, and only a very few at that, were com- mitted in a few instances by the whites. But the fact is as I state it, 

and no man can controvert it, that no interference upon the part of 

any white settlers with any of the Indians of the Umatilla reserva- tion was had until long after lar~e bodies of the8e Indians had left 

the reservation and joined theho~;tile Snakes and Bannocks and raided 

that country, all through Eastern Oregont murderi,ng. citizens with 

impunity, destroying property, and comnntting destruction and devastation on every hand. That this would naturally lead to perhaps 

unlawful acts on the part of the whites must be expected. 

I beg pardon for taking the time of the Senate with this matter at 

this time, but it is a subject requiring the immediate attention of 

Congress. The treaty is about to expire. It is out, I believe, in Apxti. Whatever may be the cause of these collisions, and I am very.sure the, whites are not the aggressors, they exist, and it is absolutely nec- essary that the Government should take some steps in the interest of 

the peace of the country and in the interest of the Indians themselves. 

I move the reference of the amendment that I offer to the Committee on Indian Affairs, and hope for an early report. 

The motion was agreed t.o. 

THE C~TDA.R, 

Mr. ANTHOYY. Mr. President, I have felt, since we have returned 

after the recess, listening every morning attentively and earnestly to 

my eloquent and industrious friend from the Pacifi.c.coast, almost as if. I had lost myself- In the continuous woods 

'Where rolls the Oregon, and hears no sound, 

Save his own dashings. . 
596 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE~ JANUARY 21, 

If the Senator has finished this speech, I move that we proceed to 

the regular order. ·. Mr. MITCHELL. I haye finished this morning's speech. I may 

make one to-morrow morning. 

Mr. ANTHONY. I cannot help it. · The VICE-PRESIDENT. The .Secretary will now call the Calendar under the resolution of the Senator from Rhode Island adopted 

yesterday, commencing at the point where its consideration was left 

o:ff on the former call. 

The first bill on the Calendar was the bill (S. No. 104) amending 

section 1661, title 16, (The Militia,) of the Revised Statutes of the 

United States; which was read. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I think that had better go over, Mr. President. 

It is a pretty lar(J'e matter. · • The VICE-PRESIDENT. The bill will go over, and the Secretary will report the next bi.H on the Calendar. 

The next bill on the Calendar wa.s the bill (S. No. 320) amendatory 

of the act to incorporate the Capitol, North 0 street and South 

Washington Railway Company. 

Mr. DORSEY: Let that bill· go over. The VICE-PRESIDENT. The bill goes over, and the next bill on the Calenda.r will be reported. 

The next bill on the Calendar was the bill (S. No. 458) to authorize 

and equip an expedition to the Arctic seas; which was read. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Let us hear the report, Mr. President. Fifty 

thousand dollars will not be a :flea bite for such a purpose. 

The Secretary proceeded to read the report submitted by Mr. SAR- GE~T, February 13, 1878. 

Mr. CONKLING. I think this bill had bett.er go over. The V H.: 8-PRESIDENT. The bill is objected to. 

Mr. CONKLING. One citizen of the United States bas just, at his own cost, starl.tJ(I ~ln an expedition toward the North Pole, and I do 

not belie.ve that by a bill of these dimensions we had better duplicate it just now. The VICE-PRESIDENT. The bill goes over. 

INDIAN TRUST FUNDS. 

The VICE-PRESIDE:t-t~. The next bill on the Calendar will be 

reported. The next bill on the Calendar was the bill (S. No. 720) to authorize 

the Secretary of the Interior to deposit certain funds in the United 

States Treasury in lieu ol investment; which was considered as in 

Committee of the Whole. 

The bill authorizes the Secretary of the Interior to deposit in the 

Trea.sury of the United States any and all sums now held by him, or which may hereafter be received by him, as Secretary of the Interior 

and trnstee of varions Indian tribes, on account of the redemption of 

United States bonds, or other stocks and securities belonging 'to the 

Indian trust fund, whenever he is of the opinion that the best interests of the Indians will be promoted by such deposits, in lieu of investments; and provides that the United States shall pay interest 

semi-annually at the rate of 5 per cent. per annum from the date .of 

deposit of any and all such sums in the Treasury. 

The bill was reported irom the Committee on Indian Affairs with an amendment; which was, in line 9, after the word "trust fund," to 

strike out: 

Whene>er he is of the opinion that the best interests of the Indians will be pro- moted by•such deposita, in lieu of investments. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I should like to hear that bill explained a little 

before it passes. According to my recollection a good share of these 

trust funds consists of trusts raised under treaties which provide 

specifically as to how the investment shall be made and the rate of 

interest that it shall b&ar. Now, whether this act would conform to 

the provisions of-\hose treaties, I should like to know before I am asked to vote for it. 

Mr. ALLISON. The bill was reported by the Senator from Kansas 

[Mr. INGALLS] who is absent. J do not think the bill will conflict 

with any existing Indian treaty. I know of no treaty that requires 

specific investments in particular securities. It has latterly been the 

cnstom from time to time to invest in United States securities, and a number of investments were made in 6 percent. bonds. Those bonds, 

of course, have been. called in some instances, and the money is now in the ;l'reasury. Generally the Indian treaties require the Government to pay 5 per cent. interest, and therefore 5 per cent. interest was inserted as the rate to be paid annually to these Indians under 

treaty stipulations. I know of no instance where a higher rate of 

interest is required, although it may be possible that there may be some existing treaty where a higher rate of interest is required. If 

so, the Government would be obliged to pay it. 

Mr. "WITHERS. Suppose there should be a lower rate T 

Mr. ALLISON. There is no lower rate fixed in any Indian treaty. 

Mr. BECK. Does not this bill really fix the rate of interest at 5 

per cent. f 

Mr. ALLISON. It fixes the rate of interest at 5 per cent. I think 

in nearly every instance where the Government has trust funds of 

the Indians, and the,rate of interest is prescribed by treaty, it is prescribed at 5 per cent. 

Mr. BECK. ts this a general provision ' 

Mr. ~!SON. A general provision. The object is to take money now in the Treasury, which has been put there on account of trust 

funds arising from an investment in 6 per cent. bonds or, from time 

to ti'me, from 5 per cent. bonds, which have been called, and instead 

of reinvesting it in bonds of the United States, that the same shall 

go into the Treasury and become an annuity, as it were, and the interest only be payable to the Indians from time t-o time. 

Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. Where provision is already made · for 6 per cent., does the bill propose to reduce it to 5 per cent. Y 

Mr. ALLISON. I do not so understand the bill. If it does it on(J'ht 

to be amended in that particular. Of course where we have a he~ty stipulation with a.n Indian tribe that we shall in vest their funds a't 

6 per cent., we cannot by law get rid of that obligation, and I take 

it in such cases there would be no payin~ the money into the Treasury. 

Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. This oill would not reach it Y Then 

I submit to the Senator whether, as 4 per cent. is now the fixed rate 

of interest of the Government and no bond is being issued at 5 per 

cent., the rate in the bill ought not to he 4 for all future investments 

and any investments covered by this bill! This bill, as I understand, does not at all affect any treaty stipulation. It is a geneml 

bill in regard to funds where there is no stipulation in the treaty 

with the Indians what amount of interest shall be paid. That being 

the case, I submit to the Senator whether it would not be proper to 

make the rate of interest 4 per cent. instead of 5, from the fact that 

that is the legal interest of the Government to-day or•that at which we are selling bonds f 

Mr. ALLISON. Of course :tny funds that come under the operation 

of this bill must come into the Treasury under treaty stipulatio~. 

There is now no provision in any treaty that I know of justifying a rate of interest less than 5 per cent. Of course there are Indian 

treaties that provide no particula.r rate of interest, _bnt require ns to 

in vest the funds. 

Mr. HOWE. Does the Senator know of any treaty which requires 

the United States to pay 5 per cent. or any other specific rate of interest! 

Mr. ALLISON. I cannot of ccmrse point the Senator from Wisconsin to any particular treaty at this moment; but I know there are a great number of treaties by which we are specifically required to pay 

5 per cent. The Sena.torfr8m Colorado [Mr. CHAFFEE] just now calls 

my attention to a recent treaty with the Utes where we 'have ex- pressly stipulated to pay 5 per cent. for thirty years. I think in nearly 

all the treaties, or in a great number of them at least, we have stipu- lated to pay 5 per cent. 

Mr. HOWE. Allow me to inquire, would it not be better and safer 

to amend the bill so as to require the United States to pay 5 per cent. 

where 5 per cent. is demanded by the existing treaties, and"where no specific rate of interest is demanded, than to accept the suggestion or the Senator from West Virginia, and to pay such rate of interest as we get money for from other sources f 

Mr. ALLISON. I do not know of any special objection to that 

amendment; but when this bill WaAJ reported to the Senato we were not in the happy financial condition that we find ourselves in now. We were then borrowing money at 4l per cent. iu tead of 4 per cent. 

I think the Committee on Indian Affairs thought it not wise to provide a general rate. If Senat-orstbinkit is better to make 4 per cent. 

the rate of interest in cases where treaty stipulations do not require a particular rate, I do not know that I have any objection to it. 

I will say that this bill meets the approval of the 11resent Secretary 

of the Interior, and it met the approval of his immediate predecessor, who prepared it and sent it to the committee for action. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Mr. President, one thing I think we..ought to ktep 

in mind about this subject that, if we deal with it as we do some- times with other matters about the Indians, we are quite likely to 

forget; and that is that a treaty with an Indian tribe is just as binding npon the honor and good faith and justice of the United States as a treaty with any other body, nation State, or prince. If I have 

stated that as an axiom to which every.body will agree, the question 

is about disturbing these trust funds that are invested and falling in 

and so forth, whether such a change as this bill proposes will disturb. our promises and the duties that we have entered into under any 

treaty. 

I think it will be found .on looking up the matter that nearly every one of the treaties that provides for trust funds makes the United 

States a trustee with the duty of investin~ these funds which belong 

io the Indians, their inoney, and of investmg them in safe stocks and 

securities to the best advantage. If that be so,· and I feel quite con- fident that it is, then it is the duty of the United States to perform 

this"o.ffice of trnstee faithfully and diligently, and to get the Ju,rgest 

interest fm; the beneficiary, the real owner of the money, that it can , get, consistent with the safety of the investment. 

I take it that everybody who bears me will agree that I state simply the law, and justice as well, when I say that. It would follow if 

I am right about that, indisputably follow, that if the Unitof'l States, through its executive authority, can invest the money of these Indians at a rate of interest above 5 per cent. and have it safe, then 

the United States ~ught to do it. In that case the trustee has no business to take the money and say "I will nse the money myself and pay a lower interest than I can get from some other safe borrower." I take it that is plain. 

I am very much afraid, therefore, that the very structure of the 

bill which authorizes, and if the amendment be agreed to, requires, the Secretary of the Interior to turn all this money, as fast as these 

. 
• 

1879. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 597 

loans fall in, into the T~easm·y at 5 per cent., is an infraction of the guilty or not guilty of wrong in what hedid in lending this money to 

largest part of these trust treaties, and is such a denial of the right some State that repudiated, or in running away with the amount, if 

of the lJeneficiary as if it should occur between private persons or that was the case. I only venture to speak in the interest of that 

private corporations, would call for and justify the intervention of a. justice and fair play which we are bound to exercise toward a red 

court of justice to compel the trustee to perform his duty. man just as much ~ toward a white man if we have promised to do 

Mr. ALLISON. If the Senator will allow me, the treaties generally it· and in that view I wish to ask my honorable friend from Iowa 

provide for 5per cent. interest to be paid by the Government of the whether he would object to, or whether he would not be satisfied 

United States. It has been the custom latterly, to invest in United with, an amendment at the end of this hill of this character: 

States bonds bearing 5 per cent. interest, and in some instances 6 per But nothing in this.act shall authorize the infraction of the provisions of .pny 

cent. bonds were purchased during the years of the war, and the years ~ty or agreement with any Indian tribe or band. 

following the war; but now 5 per cent. bonds are above par. We have 

stipulated to pay 5 per cent. interest. We cannot invest in bonds; So that wherever a treaty binds us to do something-else, let us do 

therefore the object of this bill is to provide that in all such cases, as we have promised we will do. 

and indeed in all cases where we hold trust funds, the rat.e of interest Mr. ALLISON. I not only will not object to it, but if such a proshalt be fixed at 5 per cent., and that there shall be no issuance of vision is necessary in order to. protect the rights of which the Senator 

bonds in relation to such funds whatever, no opportunity of stealing speaks, and which the committee have· quite as much in view as the 

bonds. Senator from Vermont--

Mr. HOWE. I wish to inquire whether our treaties require the. l\Ir. EDMUNDS. I do not doubt that. 

UnitedStatestopay 5 per cent. interest, or whether different treaties Mr. ALLISON. If that be necessary, I trust the amendment will 

require an investment in certain bonds V A treaty compact which be agreed to. 

requires an investment in a 5 per cent. bond of the United States is The VJCE-PRESIDENT. Is the amendment in form effered 7 a very di.ft'ereat thing from one which requires the United States to Mr. EDMUNDS. Yes, sir, but there is a. preceding amendment. 

pay ~ per cent. interest. .Mr. CONKLING. I ask the Senator from Iowa to state,-no doubt 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Yes. he can in a word,-what the present difficulty is in acting as custoMr. ALLISON. The Senator will allow me to say that these. In- dian of this fund. 

dian treaties are almost as varied as their number, in ref~rence to Mr. ALLISON. As I understand, there are a number of treaties 

these provisions. The earlier treaties required the Go>ernment of that require investments which shall bear a certain rate of interest. 

the United States to become the trustee of the Indians and to invest Now, when a number of the bonds already inv'ested were paid off, it ·their funds in the best possible manner in sound securities; and in was impossible to reinvest the proceeds at par and thus provide the 

the exercise of that power the Secretary of the Interior in 1839-'60 necessary rate of interest. 

invested some million or more of dollars of these Indian trust funds 1\Ir. CONKLING. 'Vhich was what 'l 

.i.J,l worthlesa State securities-in State securities that to-day are not Mr. ALLISON. Five per cent. the 5 per cent. bonds bein~ above 

worth twenty cents on the dollar-and yet the Government of the par. The object of this bill, which was presented at the last sessionUnited- States has felt itself bound by treaty stipulations to make and my attention has not been called to it since that time-was to 

that loss good to the Indians; and we have paid interest at the rate require the Secretary of the Interior to turn that money into the 

of 5 and 6 per cent. upon the principal of the Indian trust funds thus Treasury, and require the Treasury to pay 5 per cent. interest on it, 

invested for more than twenty years in some cases. instead of taking the Indian trust funds and investing them in 

Some of the later treaties provide for a specific rate of interest, United States bonds-5 per cent. bonds-bearing ~-1remium. That nam~ly, 5 per cent. Some others contain the provision of the older is the object of this bill. If it does not effectuate that object, it 

treaties, namely, the best possible investment for the Indians. Of ought not to pass. course when yon put any fund in trust you must see that the princi- Mr. CONKLING. I understand t'he Senator to take thfl case of a pal is preserved, as well as the annual interest paid; and therefore treaty which guarantees t.o Indians on their trust fund interest at 

the committee thought that it was for the interest of the Indian the rate of 5 per cent., and to say that, in order to make that assur- tribes that we should provide that their funds should remain in the ance sure, he proposes to cover the money into the Treasury, and 

Treasury of the United States, and that we should pay an annual then have the 5 per cent. go, absolutely re~m·dless of what may be -nterest to them. the rise or the fall of the market in particular securities. 

Now, if there is any defect in this bill I am quite ready to correct it. ~Ir. ALLISON. That is the exact object, and no other. 

:\ 'Will. only say to the Senator from Vermont and other Senators that Mr. CONKLING. I think I may say that if tho bill does effectuate 

1h43re are considerable sums of money now lying in the Treasury un- that which the Senator states, and does nothing more, every Senator 

invested': and this money ought to be invested from time to time. will be for it. It is a. very important m.1.tter, however, and some of 

Mr. EDMUNDS. If we are bound to pay interest on it at either 5 the Senators at least ought to be very su1·e that it is right before we or 6 per cent., it does not make any difference to the Indians, or to act upon it. I understand· my friend from Iowatosaythatalthough us either, whether you,call it invested or what you do with it if it is at th~ last session he knew abou~ this, at this session he has not had 

there. But I thought that I was yielding to a question instead of his attention directed to it. 

yielding to my honorable friend to explain: the bill, as I had not quite .Mr. ALLISON. I mean that I knew the exact amount of the funds 

finished what I wanted to say. as they stood then. There was then $400,000 and over of these differllr. ALLISON. I beg the Senator's pardon for trespassing on his ent funds belonging to half a dozen tribes of Indians. I can never time, which I did not mean to do. be more a-ccurate in my own judgment that this bill ought ~o pass in 

:Mr. EDMUNDS. If this is a trust, then, as I have said, the duty the interest of the Indian t1·ibes and in justice to them. It meets 

of the trustee is plain enough; and that is that, without reference the approval of the Department, the present Secretary of the luteto the private gain and advantage of the trustee, but" ith reference rior and his predecessor. It met the unanimous approval of the 

to the best advantage of the benficiary, the investment should be Committee on Indian Affairs, and it does seem to me there can be no made at the highest rate of interest that can be got consistent with objection to it unless some Senator can make one that I have not yet 

safety. Now, suppose that the duty is to pay 5 per cent., as in a heard. 

large majority of the instances under the treaties probably it is. I I quite agreetotheamendment proposed by the Senator from Verthfuk fixing the same sum would not be an infraction of the treaty mont, and I think it ought to be adopted. as to the Indians; but the United States can borrow money at less Mr. HOWE. The amendment of the Senator from Vermont, if 

than 5 per cent. If there are States or corporations or private bor- agreed to, will leave the bill in that shape, as I understand it, that rowers to whom a trustee can with safety lend money that are will- then all funds belonging to the Indians will be in the Treasury, and 

ing to pay 5 per cent. or more, then it is for. the interest of the United all the funds where no greater rate of interest is prescribed by treaty 

States not to take up this fnnd and pay 5 per cent. upon it, but to bor- than 5 per cent. will draw 5 per cent. Where a greater rate of interest ~ow money on its own gEeat credit for less than 5 per cent., and loan is reserved in the treaty a greater rate of interest will be paid. Now, 

out this money for its beneficiary at the best rate it can get, 5 per I agree >ery heartily with the Senator from Vermont that the United 

cent. if yon please. In that case the 1 per cent., if we can borrow at States ought to keep faith with an Indian tribe as much as with one 4, does not come out, as a loss, of the Treasury of the United States, of its own citizens. So I concur with him that when we have agreed but it is money that comes out of the other borrower for the benefit to pay 6 or 10 per cent. to an Indian tribe we should pay 6 or 10 per of the Indian, whereas if we borrow it ourselves at a rate of interest cent. until the debt falls due; but where we have not agreed to pay 

wbich is above the rate that our credit entitles us to borrow at, it is either 6 or 5 per cent., where is the obligation in law or in ethics which a clear loBS to us. That view ought not to be lost sight of. requires us w borrow money of an Indian tribe at a higher rate of 

Mr. ALLISON. If the Senator will allow me right there, we exer- interest than we can borrow money of anybody else? 

cised just that discretion in the case of Mr. Thompson, Secretary of _ lir. EDMUNDS. I do Hot maintain that there is; and I stated disthe Interior, and under it we lost the principal and have been paying tinctly exactly the proposition of the Senator from Wisconsin, but I 

interest for nearly twenty years. ' also said in that case if we were a trustee and the money was not 

Mr. EDMUNDS. If we lose the·principal through the misconduct ours we had no business, being the trustee, to borrow this money of 

of any officer of ours, then probably good faith to the Indians would our beneficiaries at a low rate of interest because our credit was good, 

require that it should be made up. If "ie lose it through the acci- if we could invest at a higher rate of interest in a safe security of 

dents of business and under the exercise of due diligence, which the somebody else. 

trustee is bound to exercise, then no moral or legal obligation would Mr. HOWE. Ay, but the bill commands that the money lie in the 

rest upon us to make it good. I have not the time just now to go Treasury and we pay 5 per cent. for it. 

back and try Mr. Secretary Thompson to ascertain whether he was Mr. ED~flnU)S. I am not favoring that part of the bill. 
598 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. JANUARY 21, 

Mr. HOWE. That part of the bill seem~d t.o stand without objeo- fensible in that respect, would yield the largest increase af interest . tion from the Senator from Vermont. • Now by what right one party to this agreement, (for such a treaty 

Mr. BECK. I move to strike out" five 11 and insert" four," as the is,) without consultation with the other, inay set down and determine 

rate of interest. . arbitrarily by an ipse dix it that 5 per cent., not only this month and this 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The Chair will state to the Senator from year, but hereafter in all years shall be that sum which the law would 

Kentucky that there is a committee amendment pending to be acted exact in the fulfillment of such a contract, I do not understand. It 

upon before the amend~ent of the ~enator from yermont. . may be 5 per cent. now; it may be 5 per cent. next year; or aa the 

Mr. BECK. Then~ Wlthout makLDg that motton now, I desrre to Senator from Kentucky haa suggested next year 4 per cent. may be 

say th:J~t the Senator from Iowa has expressly told us t1iat this bill is all that money safely invested can be made to yield; or on the othec 

:Rot•to interf~:~re with a.ny treaty stipulation and has very properly hand 6 per cent. may be the current value of money ventur~d in sa.fe 

consented to an amendment to that effect. Therefore it only applies investments. But whicheve\· way the variation may be, the rule of 

to such moneys as the United St~tes has in i~ possession and under law and the rule of ethics all the time exacts one thing from the cus- its control, and the interest provided for applies to that chara-cter of todian, one thing from the trustee, that his investment shall be that 

funds. It is very obvious that the experiment which we have made particular investment, which being safe will .pay the largest sum to 

to act as trustees and loan out money to States has not been very the ultimate owner of this money. · beneficial either to the United States or to the Indians, and I am not Mr. ALLISON. l\Iay I ask a question now f 

willing to say that the Secretary of the Interior or the Secretary of Mr. CONKLING. Certainlv. 

the Treasury or anybody else shall have the right to loan that money :M.r. ALLISON. I have here a treaty provision that comes under 

out to corporations, or individuals, or States, as it is sug~ested may one of the heads named by the Senator. I wish to read it to him: 

possibly be done. I do not know to whom he would lend It. I know The residue of said .,57,500 on hand after the payments hereinbefore provided 

some places where it might b.e put to d? a great ~eal of good _i~ ~he shall have been made shall remain as a trust fund, the interest upon which, as well · t• f 1 th tt " tin as the interest that may have accrued on the portion drawn out, shall be applied est1ma IOn o some peop e, Wl campaign commi ees or VlSl g under the direction of the President to educational or other beneficial purposes statesmen;" but the principal might not be safe and the interest among the Iowas. 

might not be returned. As we have to take care of the money, and There is a provision for interest, no provision for a rate of interest; 

have no a(J'ent authorized to loan it and no one to whom it is safe to b t •t · h t th · t t h n1· an ·d I h 

l

'ntrust it,"' certainly not without an order of Congress ·as to how it · u 1 reqmres t a e m eres s a ue annu Y pal · n t at case I ask the Senator what injus..tice would be done¥ 

shall be loaned and upon what security, and H is not proposed by Mr. EDMUNDS. Here is another of a different character. Here is 

Cono-ress to loan it at all, why should the United States pay more article 13 of the treaty of 1855 with the Choctaws and Chickasaws, now0

for money in the Treasury to Indians with whom she has no which says on this point: · 

treaty requiring a specific amount than she can borrow from all the The funds now held in trust by the United States for the benefit of the Choctaws other people of the United States f We are obtaining from five to under former treaties or otherwise shall continuo to be so held, together with the 

six or eight million dollars a day on 4 per cent. bonds at par, and if sum of $500,000 out of the amount-payable to them under articles 8 and 10 of this 

hereafter the United States cannot obtain money at as low a rate of agreement, and also whatever balance shall remain, if any, of the amount that 

ill . terest as 4 per cent. chan~"S may be made., but so long as monev. shall be allowed the Choctaws by the Sena.t~ under the twelfth article hereof. T.he • " sums so to be held in trust shall constitute a general Choctaw fund yielding an is worth only 4 per cent., an these funds are deposited in the Treasury annual interest of not less than 5 per cent. 

and the United States has to take care of them in the absence of any Implying just what the Senator from New York has said, that the 

agent whom she can trust to loan them ont, she ought not to pay duty of the trustee was to get more if he could. more interest th'an the money is worth \o her and than she can obtain · Mr. CONKLING. I did not in classifying these treaties include, 

it from any citizen. because I did not remember, any such treaty aa the Senator from Iowa 

Mr. CONKLING. Mr. President, the S-enator from Iowa invites has read. There is a treaty provision in the nature of a recital 

any Senator to whom .an objecti?n occurs to ~ta~e it, and, therefore, merely; the interest is referred to not there by way of stipulation of 

I will venture upon two suggesttons about th1s bill. amount, but merely for the purpose of giving direction to-that interIn the first place I do not understand to what fund this money is to est, of stating what shall become of it; and so it is said of this sum, 

go in the Treasury Department. Does the Senator from Iowa under- namely the interest, that it shall under the direction of the President stand~ . be applied so and so. Of course w~ all see the clistinction between 

:Mr. ALLISON. It is to be covered into the Treasury. I do not that provision and the other provision in that treaty, if there is one, 

know that it belongs to any special fund. by which the United States stipulates to pay. That merely recites · Mr. CONKLING. The honorable Senator says that it is covered the interest to state what shall be done with it. 

into the Treasury. That was my.apprehension at first. It is not my But now the Senator from Vermont reads a provision which does 

understanding after reading the bill. that it is covered into the belong '00 one of the classes of treaties of which I spoke and possibly 

Treasury, within the meaning of that term as commonly employed in to two of' those classes. He r~ads a provision which makes 5 per 

the Senate. It authorizes the Secretary of the Interior "to deposit cent. the minimum-not the rate a(J'reed upon, but the minimum. In 

in tlie Treasury of the United Sta~ any and all sums now held by other words, the United States by that treaty guarantees to the Indihim." "To deposit;" that is not covering money into the Treasury, ans that this trust fund shall yield at least 5 per cent. interest. Now, 

and by rea.son of a distinction which the Senator from Iowa, even I infer the Senator from Iowa will say in that case-and I am not 

better than I, fully understands. If by law you cover money into disposed to contend with him-that it would be a. fair execution of 

the Treaaury, long practical construction has established t~e nature that provision for the United States at this time, for example findof the thing yon do; bnt if yon authorize a deposit, whether of money ing that 5 per cent. is all that money can be made to yield in safe or bonds or swords-for there ha.s been the deposit of swords au- investments, to cover this money into the Treasury and say we wiH 

thorized in the Treasury De_partment-you authorize a transaction pay as an annuity or whatever yon please to call it 5 per cent. There 

of a different nature. So I think the Senator from Iowa will have is a case that at this time this provision would fairly hit and fairly 

occasion to answer to him.self to what fund, if to any fund, such a meet. But when you come to a future time for this same case, or deposit would go. If it is to be a special deposit of dead money, so when you come to one of the other cases we have been speaking of 

to speak, in the Treasury Department, on which interest is to be at this time, the question still confronts us whether that is a fair 

paid, tltat is one thing. If it is to be covered into the Treasury gen- mode of meeting the obligation. 

Qrally, to be disposable like the other funds belonging to the coffers The Senator from Vermont proposes to add to the bill, as I read it: 

of the United States, that is quite a different thing. I venture to But nothing in this act shall authorize the infraetion of the provisions of any make that as the first suggestion ;which occurs to me. treaty or agreement with any Indian tribe or band. 

But another thing strikes me which has been already adverted to, It is a good amendment, but I am inclined to think it_ is too good 

in part at least, and strikes me with more force. According to my for the purpose of this bill, because it most operate in every instance 

recollection, the Indian treaties may in this respect be divided into where by treaty the United States is bound to pay some different rate 

three classes. There are treaties which provide for the payment of 5 to except and reserve that at all events from the operation of the bill, 

per cent. interest on trust funds; that is one class. There are other whereas the bill is ~eneral in its terms and promiscuous and in distreaties which I think provide for the payment of interest, but at a criminate in including all the cases. So I would suggest that as a different rate than 5 per cent. I am not prepared to be exact or mode of making that amendment appropriately b. part of the bill the even p"sitive as to the fact now, but I think it will turn out that cases, if there are such, in which it would violate a trea.ty ought not 

there are specifications of inter~st to be paid to Indians which speci- to be upon the face of the measure included and then reserved by a fication is not 5 per cent. My impression is in one or two cases above general reservation, and left hereafter to be picked out or scuflled out; 

that, and possibly sometimes below it. T.here is a third class of trea- or contended out by these parties before the Departments or before a ties in this respect, and my recollection. is more numerous than either- court. · of the other two classes,-treaties in which the United States engages I judge from a. ~esture of the Chair that I am exceeding the time. 

to invest and keep inYested for the interest, or possibly the term is If I am, I will yield. 

for the best interest of the other party to the treaty, the funds be- The VICE-PRESIDENT. The time within which this call of the 

longing to them. Now, speaking of the latter class of treaties every Calendar should proceed has expired. The Senate will now proceed lawyer wild understand the obligation which they create. The United to the consideration of its unfinished business. 

States is bound in that caae to no what a prudent individual would Mr. ANTHONY. The Calendar has had no day during this session, 

do in t,he investment of his own funds, bound to do what a court of •

1 

and I :lBk my friend from New Hampshire if he is willing to lay aside 

chancery would direct an exenutor or trustee to do in the interest of his bill and go on wi~h the Calendar f 

his or their cestu-i, que trzu~ts. In other words the duty of the Gov- Mr. WADLEIGH. I consent that the Calendar shall be proceeded 

ernment would be to make that in~estment which bein~ safe, .de:. with. 
.· 

1879. ·coNGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 599 

The VICE-PRESIDENT·. The Senator from New Hampshire gives 

his consent. The Chair hears no objection to th~ Calendar being 

proceedefl with. The Senator from New York will proceed. 

Mr. CONKLING. Having concluded, I will not trespass further. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The pending question is the amendment 

reported by the Committee on Indian Affairs, which will be reported. 

Mr. ALLISON. I desire to say a word on that amendment. If the 

amendment of t:li.e Senator from Kentucky [Mr. BECK] shall be 

adopted--

The VICE-PRESIDENT. Ithasnotyetbeenoffered. Itwassimply 

suggested. 

Mr. ALLISON. I was. about to say that if the amendment of the 

Senator from Kentl!cky shall be adopted, then the amendment proposed by the committee should not be, because there should be some discretion left then in the Secretary of the Interior whether or not 

ho should invest in 4 per cent. bonds. • I desire to say, while I am up, that this question of the rate of interest is one of no little difficulty, as has been suggested by the 

Senator from Wisconsin, [Mr. HoWE.] Nearly three years ago thie 

identical bill passed the Senate without material objection, perhaps 

without vert much Qiscussion. It passed the Senate and went to the 

Honse during the last Congress, and the Honse inserted the p:tavision 

proposed now by the Senator from Kentucky, namely, that the rate 

of interest instead of ·being 5 per cent. should be 4; and the bill 

fell during the last Congress between the two Houses, because the 

rate of interest could not be agreed upon. Now, if it is the judgment 

of the Senate that in cases where we are not bound to pay a specific 

rato of interest we fairly comply with our obligation by the payment 

of 4"per cent. interest, then so be it. But I do think that it is best 

for the Government and for the Indian tribes that their trust funds ·should be. invested in funds of the Government, and that no Secretary ·of the Interior, however wise or able or honest he may be, should 

be intrusted with the power to go outside of Government securities 

aod make investment for these Indian tribes; because, whethel' that 

investment be made carelessly, improvidently, or disltonestly,justice 

to tho Indians will require that hereafter we shall make that mvestment good. We have done it in every instance. I see now the Senator from Tennessee; before Secretaries of the Interior have invested 

in securities in his State, supposing that they were safe securities, as they were at the time, but by reason of the insolvency of corporations in which the in vestments were made the sec uri ties have become 

absolutely worthless. Probably at the time they were regarded as judicious investments, but the;r failed, and the Government of the 

United States is to-day J?aying interest on those investments, and 

those securities are lying m the vaults of the Secretary of the Interior as so much waste I?aper. 

Now, I think it lS wise for us to fix a fair rate of interest that we will pay semi-annually to these Indian tribes, whether it be 5 per 

cent. or 4 per cent. But. let it be understood that the Government 

itself becomes responsible for these Indian trust funds, and that they are aa sacred in the hands of this Government as are any other obli· 

gations of the Government. If we do that, I think we shall have no difficulty in the future. 

I have read· one of the treaty stipulations with reference to this 

.matter, which requires, if it requires anything, that we shall pay in- terest~'upon $57,500. Those funds are still in existence, and we are now paying 5 per cent. interest. I believe those funds have been invested in 5 per cent. bonds, though I am not quite clear about that; 

but if they have been so invested, or if they have been invested in 

other bonds and those bonds should be paid off, the Government could 

not reinvest in bonds bearing that high rate of interest. It seems to me that we may reasonably, and that we are bound honorably, to fix a rate which we will pay to those Iowa-s on those $57,500. Are we not bound t There is no rate specified; yet we have agreed to pay 

them interest. Certainly in that particular case 5 per cent. is a reasonable rate; or it may be that 4 per cent. is enough, because just 

.at this moment we can borrow money at 4per cent., bntnextyear we may be obliged to pay 6. But a 5 per cent. rate of interest, it seems to me, is reasonable. 

That is the object of this bill. If it has any other object it has 

been so carefully concealed that I have been unable to see it for three 

years, although it has come up frequently for the consideration of the 

CQmmittee on Indian Affairs. I leave 1t for the judgment of the 

Senate, having in view our duty under the various treaty obligations 

to.provide these funds and keep them sacred. · Mr.: HOWE. Mr. President, all seem to be agreed that where the United~ States has agreed to pay 5, or 6, or any other given rate of 

interest, this bill, or any bill upon the subject, should provide for 

paying that rate of interest. So far all are agreed. I think there 

will be no substantial aisagreement on the proposition just made by 

the Senator from Iowa that there should not be vested in any officer 

of this Government discretionary power to. loan any trust funds in <>ur possession to anybody. It is a discretion which I think ought 

not to be given to any officer of the Government. So I think the 

Senate will conclude, with the Senator from Iowa, that this money, 

.all of these funds, should be in the Treasury. Being in the Treasury, 

we are a~eed that where a specific rate of interest is stipulated for 

that shad be paid. Jf we can agree what rate of interest shall be 

paid where no specific rate is now prescribed by law or treaty, then a simple amendment to this bill, providing that these funds be deposited in the Treasury and that the Treasury pay on such .funds as require 5 per cent. or 6 per cent. that rate of interest, and on other 

funds the rata we agree to, will make the bill conform· to what we shall finally conclude is right. 

Now, then, what ought we te pay on funds where no specific rate 

is prescribed f Five per cent. is suggested by the bill. I think that 

is unreasonable, for the simple reason that we can borrow and are borrowing millions daily at 4 per cent. It is not right. We cannotin justice to the Indians pay off this debt now, because we cannot 

trust the money in their hands. If we could we could settle that 

question right here by borrowing the money and paying them. It is 

not right to require us to keep these funds without limitation of time 

and to pay a rate of interest above that at which we borrow in all 

the markets of the world. So it seems to 1me that if to-day we agree 

to pay them 4 per cent. where we have already a~reed to pay nothing 

higher, and take care to reserve in the bill preCisely upon all other 

funds what the law now prescribes, we shall have done all that. om· duty r.equires of os for the Indians. 

:Mr. MAXEY. The phraseology of the various treaties, especially 

those made since 1866, in. regard to trust funds differs. The third 

article of the treaty with the Choctaws, referred to by the Senator 

from Vermont, requires the fund there provided for to be invested a.t 

not less than 5 per cent. I do not remember any other treaty that uses that expression except the Choctaw treaty; and yet all these 

treaties require the trust fund to be invested at 5 per cent., with the 

exception of one. I call the attention of the Senate to a clause in 

the Creek treaty, and I do not see how you can get rid of payiBg 5 

per cent. there: 

The residue of said fund shall be retained in the Treasury of the United States, 

upon which interest at the rate of 5 per cent. shall annually be paid for the main- tenance and support of said school 

The1-e it is fixed in the treaty, and therefore it cannot be reached. 

The wording of the Cherokee treaty differs from· either of the othe1'8 

that I have examined. The Choctaws and Chickasaws are covered 

together; the Seminoles and Creeks follow the same rnle. The Cherokee treaty of 1866, article 23, reads thus: 

All funds now due the nation, or that may' hereafter accrue from the sale of 

their lands by the United States, as hereinbefore provided for, shall be invested in 

United States re~tered stocks at their current value, and the interest on all said 

funds shall be prud semi-annually on the order of the Cherokee Nation, and shall 

be applied to the following purposes, &c. 

There the trust fund must be invested in bonds at their current 

value at that time, 1866, and the lowest interest then was 5 per cent. 

As this interest was to be paid annually, and the money was to be invested in those bonds at that time, can the United States, who is the 

trustee, get rid of that rate of 5 per cen.t. interest by calling in the 

very bonds in which that trust fund was invested T It occurs to me that it would lle difficult to do that, and more especially wban you 

look at the Creek treaty, which distinctly requires thatThe residue of said fund shall be retainedNot invested in bonds of any kind, but- · 

retained in the Treasury of the United States, upon which interest at the rate of 

5 per cent. shall annually be paid for the maintenance and support of said schooL 

Now, this bill provides: · 

That the Sec~:etary of the Interior be, and he is hereby, authorized to deposit in 

the Treasl;Il'y of the 'United States any and all sums now held by him, or which 

may hereafter be received by him, as Sooretarv of the Interior and trustee of 

various Indian tribes, on acoount of the redemption o{ United States bonds. 

The Cherokee fund was invested in registered bonds of tb.e United 

States, then drawing 5 per cent. interest. Those bonds have bee.a 

called in or are liable to be called in. Can tho United States get rid 

of the then rate of interest }>y calling in those bonds, and would that 

be equitable to the cestui qu~ -trust by the act of the trustee 't It is a legal question. I should dislike to say that a trustee could do it, 

especially when you look at another treaty made during the same summer of 1866 with another tribe, in which the money is required 

to be retained in the Treasury and the interest annually paid to the 

cesttti que trust. . I take it that the general theory of all these treaties must be the 

same, and when yon come to examine all of them, wherever a rate of 

interest is fixed at all it is fixed at 5 per cent. Therefore I think myself that as the United States is required to keep this fund in trust,. 

she is equitably bound to pay the rate Qf interest which was agreed 

upon at the date of the treaties when the United States was made the 

trustee. These people are weak and helpless. AB a matter of course Congress has the power to put it down to 4 per cent., but of all people on this earth I would rather deal harshly with the most powerful 

]lation than to deal harshly or inequitably with these people who are strugglin~ to get into a position of civil~zation. I feel that it would 

be right, equitable, and just, and would promote good feeling on the 

part of these people towttrd the United States, to continue to pay the 

rate of interest which was incorporated in the treaties, which is 5 per 

cent. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The Secretary will report the amendment of the Committee on Indian Affairs. 

The SEORETA,RY. In line 9, after the word "trust fund/' it is to . strike outWhenever he is of the opinion that the best interests of the Indians will be pro- moted by such deposits, in lieu of investments. 
600 . C-ONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. J .ANU.A.RY 21, 

The question being put, there-were on a division-ayes 2"2, no 1; 

no quorum voting. 

llr. DA. VIS, of Wef:!t Virginia. I presume it is given up. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. It is an amendment of the Committee on 

Indian Affairs. 

1\Ir. HOWE. There is a quorum in the Chamber. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. No quorum has voted. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I ask the Chair to count the Sen3.,te and see if a quorum is here. Tha.t is the shortest way ; it will sa~e calling the 

roH. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The Chair will count the Senate. [Counting.l There is a quorum present. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Then I gi~e it up. I voted in the negative. Let 

tbe amendment be adopted. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The amendment is adopted. The next 

amendment is that pr:oposed by the Senator from Vermont, [~Ir. EnMUXDS,] which will be read. 

The SECRETARY. A.t the end of the bill it is proposed to add : 

Bnt nothing in this act shall authorize the infraction of the provisions of any 

treaty or agreement with any Indian tribe or band. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. Are there further amendments f 

Mr. BECK. I niove to strike out "five" and insert "four" as the 

rate ofinterest. - Mr. DA. VIS, of West Virginia. I agree with the Senator from Kentucky and more especially eince the adoption of the amendment of 

the Senator from Vermont, which in fact excludes all treaty stipulatioRs, so that the bill only refers to funds now in the Treasury or 

hereafter to l;>e ~nvestetl. ~urel~ .. , then, there can be no objection on account of treaties stipulatmg differently. In other words the 4 per 

cent. will not in any way affect any treaty now in existence. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The question is on the amendment of 

the Senator from Kentucky. 

Mr. ALLISON. I hope the amendment will not be agreed to. It seems to me that to fix the rate of 4 per cent. is cutting it rather 

:fine for these Indians just at this moment. It is true that that is the 

rate at which the Government can now borrow money; but most of 

the treaties provide for 5 per cent. and some of them for not less than 

5 per cent. Now to invest in Government bonds at the rate of 4 per 

cent. in a.ll cases where there is no specific rate provided, it seems to· me as hardly :fair at this time. 

Mr. DA. VIS, of West Virginia. I suppose the Senator agrees that 

:wherever the rate of interest is named by treaty or otherwise this 

amendment does not in any way affect it. 

Mr. ALLISON. Of course, where a specific rate is provided, that 

go¥rns. Mr. MAXEY. Is there any trust fund held by the United States 

outside of a treaty f 

Mr. ALLISON. None that I know of. . Mr. BECK. The naval pension fund of fourteen millions is an 

instance •. Mr. ALLISON. That is not held for Indian tribes. 

Mrr UA.XEY. I spoke of trust funds held for.Indians, and asked if 

there were any such outside of treatY stipulations. 

Mr. ALLISON. The naval pension fnnd I believe is held at 3 per 

cent. There are a number of treaties that provide for the rate of interest. Now, just at this moment it is proposed that we shall by law 

provide the lowest rate that the Government is obliged to pay. I con- fess for myself in the interest of the Indians I think it would be better 

.for the Government to continue to pay the rate it is now paying. The 

Government is now paying at the rate of 5 per cent. where no other 

rate is stipulated, and I think that is a fair rate for the Indian tribes 

and for this Government for one year or ta\ing a series of years. The 

committee believed that 5 per cent. was a reasonable rate; 4! might 

possibly do; but to reduce these Indian trust funds now to the lowest 

possible1rate of interest at which the Government can borrow money, 

it seems to me, is hardly fair to them. 

Mr. BECK. Mr. President-- ·::Mr. HARRIS. I desire to ask the Senator from ~entucky to modify his amendment as I suggest. After the word "at," in the twelfth 

line, insert: • Such rate as ma.y be .fixed by treaty, and where no rate has been fixed by treaty at 4 per ~nt. per annum. 

So as to read : · And the United States shall pay interest at such rate as may be fixed by treaty, 

and where no rate has been fixed by treaty at the rate of 4 per cent. per annum. 

::Mr. BECK. I have no objection to that except that the amendment just adopted by the Senate, at the suggestion of the Senator 

:from Vermont, provides precisely what the Senator from Tennessee 

desires to have inserted in the bill. Then with my proposition it 

means exactly what the Senator from Tennessee suggests; for we 

have jt18t adopted an amendment saying that the provision we here 

make in regard to interest shall not in a~y way affect any provision 

which is regulated by treaty, so that we are only dealing with those cases that are not in any way connected with a treaty or provided for by one. ·Mr. HARRIS. The Senator from Kentucky will allow me to sav that if he is right in his .construction as to the amendment just 

adopted proposed by the Senator from Vermont, then it is perfectly 

.satisfa-ctory to me; but I am not snre that the amendment of the 

Senator from Vermont, ~e it will certainly have the effect the 

Senator from Kentucky supposes it to have, may not go furt}ler. I am inclined to think it will also operate on the deposit of the fund 

itself. For instance, where the treaty requires the investment of the 

fund at a rate not to be lower than 5 per cent., the amendment we 

have adopted will so operate as to prevent the deposit of that fund 

in the Treasury at all, or it may be construed to require the Secretary 

of the Interior still to invest it in securities as best he may at a rate 

not below 5 per cent. 

:Mr . .ALLISON. That would be the exact effect if we now adopt 

the amendment proposed by the Senator from Kentucky. 

Mr. BECK. What will be the effect, if the Senator from Iowa. 

pleases? · 

~.tr. ALLISON. That all the 5 per cent. funds will nQt be touched 

by the bill. 

Mr. BECK. That the 5 p~r cent. funds provided by treaty will not 

be affected by the bill. That is precisely what I propose. It is only as to those funds which the United States undertakes to take care .of, 

where no person has any right to a given sum, that I suggest 4 per 

cent. I hope the Senator from Tennessee understands me as mean- ing to do just what he supposes the amendment of the Senator from 

Vermont effects in cases covered by treaty. ~Ir. ALLISON. Will the Senator allow me to state a case ? 

Mr. BECK. Certainly. 

Mr. ALLISON. I :find here a treaty with the Kansas Indians which 

provides that a sum of $202,000 "shall be funded at 5 per cent., the 

interest of which shall b~ paid annaally," &c. There is a requirement to fund the principal sum at 5 per cent. Of course that would 

allow it to be put in United States bonds, and when they were,bonght 

at par that would be thewaytheywould be funded; bot now, wheB. 

those bonds are at a premium, it is impossible for the Government of 

the United St.ates, withaut some additional law, to fund this sum at 

5 percent. They must pay a premium in order to do it. Now, under 

the bill as it is, without the amendment of the Senator from Kentucky, 

the Government complies with this treaty provision; it does fund the 

money at 5 per cent. and pays the interest ; but under the amendment proposed by the Senator from Kentucky the Gonrnment, unless 

there is a further modification of the bill, would still be entitled to 

pay a premium iu order to ~et 5 per cent. on this fund.. Now, the 

question is whether that is farr and just to the Indian tribes! Every 

Senator will judge for himself. 

Mr. CONKLING. I should like to ask the Senator from Kentucky· a qpestion. I understood him to say that wherever a .treaty provision 

fairly construed requires the payment of 5 per cent., he thinks it right 

that the amendment of the Senator from Vermont should operate. 

In otp.~r words, he thinks it would be bad faith to apply a 4 per cent. 

proviSIOn to such cases. Mr. BECK. That is right. 

:Mr. CONKLING. I agree with the Senator entirely, and upon that 

concession I found my question. · What does the Senator from Kentucky say of the case of a treaty which :fixes no rate of interest, but 

which requires the United States to invest at the best and most profitable rate Y Speaking of such case, not for to-day, but aa a permanent statute is intended to speak hereafter, does the Senator from 

Kentucky think it would be a fair execution of the trust to fix 4 per 

cent. interest to operate and be the measure of interest when the time comes that manifestly an investment for-more than 4 per cent. could 

be made, and if he sees a distinction between the two cases what is 

the distin,9tion 'f 

Mr. BECK. In answer to that I would say that where we have 

undertaken to manage this trust fund, when we see that it is impossible to authorize any executive officer t-o loan it out so as to absolutely secure the principal as well as the interest, and when Congress 

believes that the true way to give absolute·secnrity to the principal, 

which is quite as valuable as to secure a fair interest, requires us to 

keep the fund in the Treasury, then at the time we pass the law it is now proposed to pass we ought to pay precisely the same interest to 

the Indians that we are willing to pay on cmr own bonds or to any 

person else from. whom we borrow. Four per cent. is admitted to be 

that amount now. It may be 6 per cent. two years hence. If so I 

would then change it and giye the Indians the same that I gave any 

person else. It may be 3 per cent., not 6. Congress being i~ session 

eaoh year can so change the rate of interest allowed as t.o do justice 

to the Indian. I would put them precisely on the same footing that 

I would any other creditor of the Government, and pay them just the 

rate of interest the money is worth. 

~r. CONKLING. In other words, as I understand it, the Senator 

from Kentnaky is compelled to maintain two propositions: first, that 

Congress shall, by legislation watching the money market, legislate 

from time to time so as to conform to the ebb and flow of money 

values. I think the argument of convenience, without going further, 

would be strong againRt that. But the Senator from Kentucky is 

compelled to maintain a very difficult position. Reducing the tr~nsaction to more familiar form, it is one between two individuals. One 

individual has become trustee for another, under a decree or covenant . to keep the funds of the other invested to the best advantage. The 

trustee proposes, instead of executing his trust, to take the mQneys to 

himsel,f, to become himself the borrower, to :fix tho rate of interest 

himseft' which he will pay, and do it without consulting the otlrer 

party. 
1879. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 601 

I ask whether there is a forum of la.w or a forum of reason on earth 

in which such a transaction would stand investigation' The rule of 

la.w as to a trustee is "touch not, taste not, handle not, but observe 

absolutely the requirements of your trust." What are they f To 

keep invested from time to time and always at the best advantage 

funds with which the trustee has nothing whatever to do except scru- puloruily to act as the legal custodian. Is there any theory of trusteeship under which the trustee can determine for himself that he 

will become the borrower ; that he will become one of the interested 

parties, that he by his own act will make himself a contractor, not 

with the consent of the other party, but upon his own volition, determining everything for. himself and saying when complaint L'! 

made, '' Why if :at a future time I judge that I should pay more interest, then I will pay more interest , if at a future time it seems to me I should not pay so much interest, then I will not pay so much 

interest!" 

The vice, as I conceive, in such a proposition is radical. Yon do . not defend it by finding that on a particular day the trustee at that 

time is doing what he should do in fact as to rendering the amount 

to th'e other. You. do not defend it in that way, because it is a violation of faw, it is a violation of the covenant. The difficulty with it 

is ethical; it is wrong ; and the circumstance that on a particular da~ an investigation might show that just at that time the trustee 

happened to be paying out of his own pocket and by his own volition· as much as anybody else would pay is no answer. Mr. President, I want to make one other remark about this biil. 

The Senator from West Virginia construes the bill as it now stands 

to inean that it shall take ne effect upon treaty moneys, but that it 

shall operate only on moneys which find themselves or are found, 

without reference to thisla.w, in the Treasury of the United States, 

and speaking of such cases it says that the interest paid on them 

shall be 5per cent., or4percent.,orwhateverrateshall be established. 

Assmning that to be the correct construction of the bill a.s it now stands, I submit to the Senate that the legislation is unworthy of the 

Senate in substance and in form, unworthy of the intelligence of the 

Senate; and lest I may seem to mean some offense, I will endeavor to 

explain exactly iny meaning. 

If the purpose of the Senate is to say that certain funds, and not 

others, shall be disposed of in a certain way, that should be the 

declaration. We should not say by the general phraseology of a bill 

that we mean all and all manner of moneys·of this general kind, and 

then trust to a saving clause at the end to declare that we do not mean to violate treaties. We should not say it for two reasons. In 

the,first plae~, it is a very unintelligible, and if I may so say, an inartificial mode of declaring the meaning of the law-making power. But 

it is objectionable for a practical and worki.ilg reason. It commits to 

departmental officers, to the subordinate departmental officers who 

in point of fact attend to transactions of this sort, subject of course to the formal approval of their superiors-it commits to them the 

power, and the duty perhaps, of deciding which is which, among aU 

these cases. Is that fairY Is it fair, first for the Congress of the 

United States ex parte to adjudge what shall he in :~;espect of a transaction to which there is another party, and then to delegate by 

way of discretion to, we know not whom, whoever may be the subordinate officer in a particular instance who passes upon this, the 

right to say which is a fund to be covered and saved by the saving 

clause and which is a fund that would fall within the general scope 

of the billY It seems to me not. If you are to assume, despite as I 

conceive of the right of the case, that the United States may properly 

exert the power, without consulting the Indians, of saying bow much 

shall be paid upon this trust fund, then yon should at least say it, and 

you should say it in some mode or by some rule of certainty, and you 

should not employ such general terms as commit to somebody else 

hom time to time the power to determine which is a fund falling wi~hin one clause of the hill, a contradictory clause as I think, and 

which is a fund falling within the bill as the bill still remains as far as it does in spite of this contradictory saving clause. 

So, then, I should submit to the Senator from Iowa, although I know 

another member of the committee reported the Qill, as be for the 

present more especially has charge of it, that if the design is to pla<le 

upon the statutes le~islation to the effect ascribed to this by the Senator from West Virgmia wo should use apt and appropriate words to 

say that, and not use such ambiguous and as I think somewhat re- pugp.ant words as leave an open question1 to he determined we do not 

know when nor with any eertafuty by wnom. . Mr. BECK. Mr. President, I desire to premise what I have to say 

in answer to the Senator from New York by the statement that I atn 

not at all responsible for the frame of the bill nor for its general pro- ·visions; out I am wholly unable to see how the vice of which the Senato~from New York complains as to thefact thatthetrusteeseeks 

to use the money hiinself and does not loan it out to other people, but 

himself undertakes to ·hold it and to pay interest on it, is cured by 

paying 5 per cent. interest, when there 'is a vice in paying 4 per cent. or any other rate of interest. And that is a complete answer, I think, 

to the objection made, so far as the mere f!Uestion of 4 or 5 per cent. 

is concerned. 

The United States may be a trustee in these cases, perhaps is; but, as ha.s been sa!id by the Senator from Iowa, we all know that whenElVer an executive officer undertakes to lend out money he can lend 

i t to whom he pleases, unless Congress puts a limitation on hhn. And 

if he loans out that fund to the State of Arkansas, to the State of 

Tennessee, or to any other State, or to a corporatiQD in any State; and 

the money is lost, we are in good faith bound to make it good. Therefore safety to the Indian, safety to the United States acting as trustee, requires that the money should be held· in the Treasury unless some absolute mode can be provided for securing safety otherwise. 

Congress does not provide any mode bywhichmoney can be loaned out 

with absolu.te safety to a State, an individual, a corporation, or anybody; arid the mere question of what we ~hall pay comes down to 

this, what is it worth to us if we are obliged to keep itf We can get 

all the money we want at 4 per cent., and why should we pay more to these people with whom we have no treaty stipulations-for this 

only applies to those with whom we have no treaty stipulations-as 

to the rate and as to whom we are under no obligation except to 

take care-of their interests faithfully, than the money is wortll. to us f 

If money is worth to us 6 per cent., we ought to pay that. 'If it is 

not worth but 3, we ought not to pay more than 3; bot allowing 

treaty stipulations to hold, admitting that we hold the money as a trust fund, admitting that we cannot authorize an executive officer 

to loan it out to any State or corporation or individual, so as to se- cure the interest and principal in all time, occupying the n!llation of a superior power, dealing alike justly with all citi~eu1 we ou~ht to 

pay the same inwrest we pay anybody else. And if it 1s :fight m the 

next eongress to pay 5 or 6 per cent., we ought to pay it, or, if it falls 

to 3, pay that. We cannot loan it out, and our executive officers can- not be ordered to loan it out, and so, keeping the money, we should 

pay whatever its use is absolutely worth to the Government of the 

United States. That is all' I say. 

Mr. HEREFORD. I desire to say a. word or two. in reference to this 

question. It strikes me tbat there is no objection to the position of 

my colleague. The Senator from New York has said that a cer- tain amendment to this bill is in "Vliolation of good faith, that such 

conduct as we propose, as indicated by this amendment, would not 

be tolerated by a chancellor in a trustee haVing the charge of funds. 

It seems to me that that position is not tenable. It strikes me that 

if a trustee before a court should make a report to the chanMllor of 

his conduct, such as we propose to-day, it would ·be just, and wh¥ t. The objection m~e and the ground assumed by the Senator from 

New York is that the trustee must do the very best he can for his 

cestui que trust. That is true; but no court woula compel him to do 

that to the pecuniary injury of the trustee himself. Now, place a private individual just in the position of the United States in this case, 

for I take it that we are not to loan this money to any private individual or corporation1 but that it is to be loaned by the Government 

to itself or invested m its own bonds. Now, if a private individual was in the same condition, and there should be an objection made to 

his investment of the fund by anybody, and the chancellor should 

be t-old "this trustee ha.s notes out, some at 6, some at 5, and some at 

4 per cent., and therefore he should invest it in the fives or sixes," the 

trustee would answer " that is true, but I am calling in my larger 

notes; I am calling in those notes of mine bearing 6 per cent. and 5 

per cent.; I can get money at a less rate of interest now, ana I am calling in the higher notes, and I propose in calling them in and 

lending this money out, to lend it at the. lower rate of interest not to 

my disadvantage. I propose to do all.l can, the best I can for the cestui que trust, but not to my own pecuniary injury; I can get money 

at 4 per cent., and I am calling in my higher-rate notes for that very 

purpose; therefore I propose to lend this money at tlle rate of interest 

that I can get it at from other parties." 

Ur. CONKLING. Will the Senator allow me to interrupt him there 

for a moment 'I 

Mr. HEREFORD. Certainly. 

:Mr. CONKLING. His answer would be a good one, it seems to me, 

but for a very broad distinction which he overlooks. He has a.ecidentally before him now a case in which the trustee and the chancellor 

is the same person, and he assumes iu his argument that, because that 

is t rue, the right of the other party is varied1 and he says the trustee 

is not bound to do the best he can for his cestz~i que tru.st if that so doing injures him, whereas the Senator must perceive that the law 

ancl the right takes no note of the fact that the two persons happen 

to be the same. The United States as trustee in thiS case ought todo what another trustee should; that is, not to borrow the money 

itself, nor to decide for itself, but to do that which another trustee 

would be required to do. What is that f To loan to somebody else; 

to invest a.s other people do in the securities the appropriate vehicles 

of such investment. So the argument which th.e Senator makes use of, I submit to him, does not arise at all. A trustee has no right to 

say: "I will borrow this money myself, aud, borrowing it, I will not 

pay any more than I should pay somebody else." ~he answer is, 

"You have no business to borrow it; loan it to somebody else and get 

from that somebody else as much as you can, and then the question 

does not arise how much yon can afford to pa.y." 

Mr. HEREFORD. But thatisnot the intent. No Senator proposesto lend this money, as I' said before, to a private individual, or to an incorporated company. Even the Senator from New York does not 

propose that. We must take the case just as we find it. As was very 

properly said by the Senator from New York~ in this case we find thechancellor and the trustee the same person, and we must take all 

the facts as we now find them before us. The Govem.ment is tbe 

chancellor in this case, and the Government is the trustee in this 
'002 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. JANUARY 21, 

~ase, and the trnstee proposes to invest this m~ney, not to lend it as I said to private individuals or corporations, but to illvest it in the 

bonds of the chancellor, t.o invest it in the very best security that is 

knoWn. to our country. That is to say, if the trustee was a private 

individual it is conceded that his own notes would be the very best i.D~Yestment; but be says, "I am calling in these notes that are bear- •ing a high rate of interest. I cannot afford to pay that high rate of 

interest any longer. I am calling them in, and I am now about to 

make a reinvestment of this fund. I do not propose to violate any 

-contract or any treaty with the Indians, but I am proposing now to 

reinvest this very fund, or to invest a new fund if yon pleaae. Then 

what shall I do f" The trustee, if a private individual, would say, 

"Shall I bind myself to give a greater rate of interest in this case -than I can get money from other parties aU No." No chancellor in 

the world would hold him to do that. The chancellor would ijay, I 

think, just as we are proposing to do now, :r Invest the money in new :SeCurities, and if it is to be invested in your own notes invest it in 

_your notes bearing the least rate of interest at which you can get 

money." No harm then is done to the cestu.i qu.e trust. No harm in 

that case is done to the trustee. Nobody can complain. Nor has the 

.<JeBtui que t1'1Ut in this case a right to ask of the trustee to lend out his 

particular money at a greater rate of interest than he can go into the 

market and borrow it for. . I am opposed to doing anything that would be bad faith to the 

Indians; I am in favor of keeping most sacred and inviolate every 

treaty that we have made .with them until it may be changed by a new treaty with them; but in this case, as th~ conservators, ::ts the 

protectors of the interests of the whole people of this country, we must deal fairly with tke people and with the cestui f.<Ue trust8, and I 

think if a report had been made to a chancellor statmg these facts 

and such an objection should be made as is made to-day by the Senator from New York, the chancellor would say, "The trustee has acted 

in good faith with the cestui qu.e trust; :Q.e has made no profit to himself or to any other person; his investment is secure at a rate of interest which is current throughout the land." 

Mr. EATON. Mr. President, I think there is a weak point in the armor of my distinguished friend from New York. He forgets that 

the United States Government, if you call it a trustee, is not amena- ble to any of the rules, and cannot be made amenltble to any of the nues which govern ordina!ff trustees, and for this reason: I will suppose that a half million dollars was invested by the United States 

Government in certain bonds, either of the State of New York or the 

State of Connecticut or the State of Tennessee, and five years hence 

those bonds should turn out to be worthless; the United Sta.tes Gov- ~rnment w.ould still continue to pay the Indians all the inoorest that was due them npon those bonds, when the U:aited States would not 

ii in the position of an ordinary trustee, for where the statutes of 

the States provide that the investments may be made in the bonds of 

the city of New York or the city of Hartford, or of the State of New 

York or of the State of ConnecMcut1 if then the bonds should turn 

()Ut to be worthless, the trustee woUld not be liable. He has done 

his full duty in the matter. Now this, if I am right, . is an answer to the argument which has been made, and I say tbat the very best 

investment that possibly can be made to-day is in the 4 per cent. 

bonds of the United States. The next best investment is in the 

British consol which yields but 3 per cent.; and if the United States 

is to go outside of its own limit.s in order to invest trust funds, let 

it invest them in English oonsols r~ther than in the bonds of some corporation or Sta.te, of which I will not now speak. My own conviction is that the United States 4 per cent. bond is the very best investment. It is better than the 5 per cent. of ths United States to-day. 

We are now speaking of a bond to invest in, not assuming that we will pay 5 or 6 or 7 per cent., but if you have to buy a United States 

bond, in my judgment the 4 per cent. is the best. Shall we take 

half a. million of the money of :m ~dian tribe and invest it in a 6 

per cent. bond thP.t is worth to-day 120 or 125 or'130, and pay the 

accruing interest to the Indians, or shall we take the 4 per cent. bond 

of the United States! In calling that the best investment, I believe 

that I am entirely right. I do not say that 4 is aa much as 5, or that 

4 is as much as 6, but I say it the bond is to be purchased with the 

Indians' money the interest payable on that bond at 4 per cent. is 

the best investment that can be made. 

Mr. CONJ}LING. Mr. President, I am so rarely able to get advantage of the honorable Senator from Connecticut in :tn argument 

that when I have oae now I want to be sure to claim it. 

Tlie honorable Senator said there was a weak spot in my armor. I did not know which one of the many weak spots he was going to 

refer to. 

:Mn. EATON. I sa.w but one. Mr. CONKLING. The Senator says in his charity he saw but one. I think I see a weak ~t in his argument. It is that an.investment 

in 4 per cent. bonds.IS the best investment, especially that it is 

better than an investment in 6 per cent. bonds, because the 6 per 

cent. bond costs the most. I take issue with the arithmetic of the 

honorable Senator from Connecticut, and I affirm in the presence of men skilled, as the honorable Senator is, in financial problems, that it 

makes ,no difference whatever to an Indian or a white man who owns money .whether you invest it at this moment in a 6 per cent. bond or in a 4 per·cent bond. Why f Because in the case of the 6 per cent. 

bond you are compelled to pay a premium, which prem~um would 

exactly represent and be-compensated by the additional interest but 

for one fact, which is that the 6 per cent. bond is payable sooner than the 4 per cent. bond, and when it comes to be paid its holder 

receives only its par vaJne. Taking, then, these two elements of calculation, these two in~rements of value and loss into the account, the man who takes a given sum of money and invests it in a 6 per (lent. 

bond receives to-day exactly 4 per cent., ::w.d the man who invests m a 4 per cent. bond receives exactly 4 per cent. So that it makes no difference either one way or the other in the estimation of a hair, 

in the minutest fraction, whether you invest one'way or invest the 

other. . 

Mr. President, I think I am right in that argument. I think the 

Senator from Connecticut will aSTee with me on refieQtion ; but if he were right, I submit it would g1ve no support to this bill. If it be 

true that under the law as it stands the best investment to be made 

for the Indians is a 4 per cent. United States bond or a 6 per cent. 

United States bond ; then all the authority needed resides now in the 

custodian of these funds. Therefore you want no legislation. 

The honorable Senator made use of one illustration in his argument 

to which I wish to refer. He said, suppose the investment were in a bond of the State of Connecticut or the State of Tennessee or the 

State of New York, and those bonds should turn out to be worthless. 

I object to such a supposition, and I object to it in the cn.se of New 

York, because not only have her bonds never turned out to be worthless, but when specie payments were suspended and the legal-tender 

act was passed, the State of New York paid not oaly interest on her 

bonds but paid it in gold, and did it by the recommendation of a demoorat\c governor who made the same recommendation as, I think, 

would have been made by the honorable Senator from Connecticut, 

knowing him as I do and knowing the strictness with which in his 

public and private action he always conforms to ri~ht. I am glad 

that he reminded me of this circumstance, because 1t enables me to 

object, as I do, to any one suggesting that the bonds of the State of 

New York could ever be the basis for such a suspicion. 

Mr. EATON. My friend thinks he ha..s found a weak point in my 

argument. Now, I beg to say to him that the best financiers in the 

country to-day, the people who have in their hands the management 

of trust funds, to wit, the savings-banks of the country, have been 

investing immensely within the last three months in 4 per cent. bonds, 

find they regard them as worth i per cent. more than the 6 per cent. 

bonds. My friend says that all are 4 per cent., bonds. I do not mean to say that he used that language, but I use it for him, because he 

says that each bond will be reduced to the same value practically on a-ccount of the effect of the shortness of the time the 5 and 6 per 

cent. bonds have to run. As a matter of ordinary financial calculation he is unquestionably right, Q.ut as a matter of business transaction he is wrong, because men do not go into this minute figuring with. 

regard to where the point would be where the 4 and the 5 and the 

6 percents agreed; and therefore it is that I say that the best financiers that I know of in New England are to-day taking the 4 per cent. 

bonds as the best investment for the savings of the poor. 

Mr. CONKLING. Only because they can get no other safe investment. · Mr. EATON. No matter what the cause, it comes back to my asser- tion that the best interest the Indian can have .to-day is the 4 per 

cent. bond, because it haa the longest term to run. . Mr. PAD DOCK. I should like to ask the Senator from Connecticnt 

if he thinks he can satisfy the Indian that it ia the best security for 

him to have when the treaty obligation with him is that he shall have 

5 per cent. or 6 per cent. f 

Mr. EATON. My friend would not misrepresent me f 

Mr. PADDOCK. No, sir. 

Mr. EATON. I have not asserted that any agreement, any stipnlation, any contract that the United States has entered into with any 

branch of these people should be violat-ed. Very far from it. If we have agreed to pay them 10 per cent., let us pay it. If we have agrood 

to pay a dollar to the bondholder who has given but forty-seven <+ants on the dollar for his bond, let ns pay him one hundred cents on the 

dollar, because we have aO'reed to do it. 

Mr. BECK. We have a~y amended the bill to do that. 

Mr. EATON. Bot the Indian is our ward. Let us do justice by 

him. Let us give him all that belongs to him and no more, and the 

best investment he can have is the 4 per cent. bond of the United 

States. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER, (Mr. WITHERS in the chair.) The 

question is on the amendment offered by the Senator from Kentucky, 

[Mr. BECK.] . Mr. PAD DOCK. Let the amendment be reported. 

Mr. WINDOM. There seems to be but little prob'.Lbility of finishing this bill this afternoon. 

Mr. ALLISON. It can be finished in five minutes. 

Mr. WINDOM. · I think the Senate would like to act on the naval 

appropriation bill. Unless the pending bill can be voted upon at.once, 

I shall ask the Senate to take up the naval appropriation bill. 

Mr. ALLISON. We can vote on this in a few minutes. 

Mr. ANTHONY. If this debate is to go on, I shall insist that it pro- ceed under the rule, and that each Senator sh'lll speak.but "once, and 

for five minutes only." · • The PRESIDING OFFICER. Thelchair understands that the debate is proceeding by unanimous consent. It is within tho pow~r of 
1879. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 603 

a Senator at any time to atop the debate by asking that the rnle be 

enforced. . Mr. WINDOM. If this bill is to be debated further, I shall ask to 

lay it a-side and take up the naval appropriation bill. 

Mr . .ALLISON. Will the Senator ~m Minnesota allow me to say 

about five words Qn the pending question ! 

Mr. WINDOM. Certainly. 

Mr. DAVIS_, of West Virginia. The pending question is whether 4 

per cent. should be inserted ·in lieu of 5 per cent., I understand. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The pending question is on the 

amendment of the Senator from Kentucky, [Mr. BECK,] proposing to 

insert" 4 per cent." instead of" 5 per cent." 

Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. I have a word to say upon that question before the subject passes from the consideration of the Senate. 

Mr. ALLISON. After hearing all that has been said upon this subject, desiring to do.jnstice as fully as I can with reference to these trust 

funds, and seeing the current of sentiment rather favoring a lower 

rate of interest than 5 per cent. in cases where there are no treaty 

stipulations, I believe if the Senator from Kentucky will compromise 

with me I will compromise with him, and propose 4t per cent. as the 

rate of interest. · Mr. BECK. I will withdraw my amendment if that is done, be- ~ause that is about the average rate. 

Mr. ALLISON. We should then pay at the rate of 4t per cent. 

upon such funds as are now in the custody of the United States 

having no specific rate provided for by treaty. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Does the Chair understand the Senator from Kentucky to withdraw his amendment f 

Mr. BECK. I do. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The amendment is withdrawn, and 

the Senator from Iowa moves to amend the bill by substituting 

~' 4t pei;-~~~t." for "5 per cent." Mr~ !SON. If tliat is generally accepted, I want to perfect 

the bill in accordance with it, be~ause I wish to say that it will be 

found that in nearly every instanc~ we have provided for 5 per cent. 

'by treaty. 

Mr. P .AD DOCK. I should like to inquire of the Senator from Iowa 

'f the general understanding of the Indian _in respecrt of the funds, 

-where there is no stipulation, is not that in the absence of a stipulati\m thoce shall be paid so much as 5 per cent. interest If we pay 

lbSS, will it not lead to a misunderstaJlding f Will it not convey the 

impression to the Indians in such cases that there is a dispo~ition on the part of the Government to take from them that to which they are entitled nuder regulations heretofore established Y There is the 

danger in all this business. It is not important to haggle about a half per cent. interest here to be paid to the Indians. The question ·is whether yon are to satisfy them, whether yon are to keep them 

quiet, vr whether you are to give to them an incentive to outbreak 

and t.he destruction of life and property. 

Mr. ALLISON. There are but very few treaties where the rate of 

i nterest is not prescribed; anl,l in such cases if the fnnd is placed in 

the Treasury of the Uruted States and 4t per cent. paid regularly, 

which is i per cent. higher than the United States is generally com- . i>6lled to pay, I think that we do reasonable justice to the Indians. 

Mr. HOAR. I should like to ask the chairman of the committee 

which reported this bill whether his understanding of it is that it is :a mere present regulation in so far as it applies to funds which are not at present the subject of treaty stipulation, or whether it is a ~rpetual promise by the United States T That is a question which 

will arise :hereafter;. and it seems to me very desirable that in our ·dealing with such matters we should not leave for the future tlebat-

.a.ble questions as to whether the country is bound in honor. Onght 

mot this provision that the United States shall pay interPst, &c., to 

be made either to signify an absolute promise in regard t,(l all these 

funds now put into the Treasury, if that is what the Indians are to 

have, or simply a statute regulation, if that is all we are going to 

-enactf 

Mr. ALLISON. I wlll say in response to the Senator from Massa- ·chusetts that when this bill was originally reported by the Committee on lndmn Affairs it was intended as a present regulation. Tke 

Secretary of the Interior found the Department in this condition: 

he found a treaty 1-equiring the investment of funds bearing 5 per 

-cent. interest, and he also found that in order to make such an in vestment it was necessary to pay a premium on the bonds purchased. 

The Secretary of the Interior believed that it was hardly within the 

tn>irit of these treaties to be compelled to pay a premium of 9 or 10 

per cent., as these bonds were then beari.Qg a premium of 9 or 10 per 

cent., in order to comply with a stipulation which re(}uired a semiaminal interest.at the rate of 5 per cent. a year. Therefore he asked 

the Congress of the United States to permit him, instead of going · into the market and buying 5 per cent. bonds at a premium, to put 

that money in tho Treasury and allow it to be used as other moneys 

.are used in the Treasury, and pay the Indians what we had agreed to 

pay them, namely, 5 per cent. semi-annually. It turns out in an examination of the treaties that there are sOme treaties which provide no specific rate, and Senators say. that 5 per cent. is too high a ~at.e to pay upon funds where no specific rate is prescribed in the 

t reaty. Therefore a proposition has been made to pay 4 per cent. It :aeems to me that if we pay 4t per ce.p.t. in such cases we fairly com- {>ly for the present with our treaty obligations. 

There is great force in what the Senator from Massachusetts says, that if we put this now in the form of a statute without some not1ce 

to the Indian tribes that it is temporary and may be changed hereafter, it will be regarded in the nature of an obligation binding upo1l 

the Government for all time. Therefore it seems to me that it ought 

to be stated, that this is not intended as a permanent provision ; that 

it is intended as a provision of law regulating the investment of 

funds by-the Secretary of the Interior, rather than a stipulation which 

shall be binding iu aU future time between the United States and 

the Indian tribes with whom the United States may be dealing. The 

object of this bill is merely to regulate funds which are now in the 

custody of the Secretary of the Interior, and it is not intended to 'be 

permanent. · lli. HOAR. If the bill goes over, I suggest to the chairman of the 

committee that he put in some words when it comes up again making that clear. If he does not m·ean to say that the Unit-ed St&tes 

engage to pay by this language, then let him express a reserved right 

to change the provision in regard to these funds where the Indians 

have no existing obligation. . Mr. ALLISON. I ask the Senat.or from Massachusetts if he re~ards 

the language as now employed to be a binding obligation, or as fairly 

construable to be a binding obligation, on the part of the Government 

to pay for all time the rate of interest fixed by the bill Y 

Mr. HOAR. I regard it as extremely ambiguous. As it is now, it 

strikes me ·that the language is ambiguous, and it might well be 

claimed that it made a ;perpetual engagement of the public faith. 

Mr. BL~NE. To pay 5 per cent. f 

Mr. HOAR. Yes, if t _hat is to be the rate of interest. Mr. BLAINE. The question may have been answered before, as I 

have not attended to the debate as I ought to have done, bnt was not 

the provision to pay 5 per cent. put in at a time when the Government was paying that as its lowest rate! )Vas itnottheunderlying 

suggestion of the original enactment, tbat the interest should be fi.xecl 

at the lowest rate the Government was then paying f 

Mr. ALLISON. That waa one underlying suggestion. · Mr. BLAINE. Was it not the main one Y Was it not .legislating 

in perfect good faith to gi,ve that fund the benefit of the lowest rate 

of interest the Government was paying, and so if we establish now the rate the Government is paying. 7 

Mr. ALLISON. Five per cent f 

Mr; BLAINE. Four per cent. 

MI·. ALLISON. Oh, no. The object of the bill is to enable these 

Indian tribes to receive 5 per cent., the treaty stipulation rate, without 

the Government being compelled to pay a premium for it. That was the object of the legislation originally. Now it turns out that some of the treaties do not fix a rate, and therefore it is thought best to provide for those tribes, and so a rate of 4 per cent. ha8 been suggested. Mr. BLAINE. I think that is enough. That is what any wise 

guardian would do for his ward to-day. 

Mr. ALLISON. Invest the fund in 4 per cent. bonds f 

Mr. BLAINE. Yes; if you want something that can be found when 

you go after it; if you want something yon do not have to watch for.· Mr. ALLISON. It may be that that is fair, but we are paying now 5 per cent. upon every obligation we are under to the Indians . Mr. BLAINE. Then the United States is simply giving 1 per cent. 

gratuity, for the simple reason that any money the United State~ 

owes to-day it is able to pay in cash by selling it.s 4 per cent. bonds 

at par, and therefore whatever it gives beyond that is a gratuity, not an obligation. 

Mr. ALLISON. That is a fair question for every Senator to settle 

according to his own conscience and judgment of what is right and 

proper. The stipulation was made in some of these trfl&ties when S 

per cent. was the lowest rate at which the Government could obtain 

money. 

Mr. BLAINE. That was the lowest rate at that time the United 

States was able to obtain money for. Some of the stipulations were made when we had to pay as high as 7.3 per cent. 

Mr. ALLISON. Some of the treaties were made when we could 

have borrowed money at 3i per cent. where we stipulated to pay\) 

per cent. 

Mr. BLAINE. I do not know when that period was. On loitg 

timet 

Mr. ALLISON. I think so. Mr. BLAINE. When was that interesting period in our history T 

Mr. ALLISON. I only know that we paid a lar~e premium for 4 

per cent. bonds in order to pay off our debts at one time in our history. 

Mr. BLAINE. When ! 

Mr: ALLISON. In 1828--'29-'30, or 1831-'32-along there. 

Mr. BLAINE. I do not think there ever was a 4 per cent. bond of 

the United States issued and capitalized in that w..ay. 

Mr. ALLISON. Perhaps those were bonds bearing 4t per cent. interest. . Mr. BLAINE. Or 5 per cent. . Mr. ALLI>SON. We paid 30 per cent. premium for some of tkem a t 

that t4ue, so that we could obtain money for 3i per cent. I am perfectly certain that we can borrow money to-day at 3i per cent. by 

making the time longer. A great many considerations enter into 

what we ought to do when we are dealing with the Indian tribes in 

such a matter as this. 

Mr. BLAINE. I think the large premium to which the Seha.tor refera 
604 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. JANUARY 21,. 

was that paid on the Mexican war loan under the administration of 

Mr. Guthrie in the Treasury Department. The war loan of 1812, I 

think, was never negotiated below 6 per cent. · . Mr. ALLISON. I am not speaking of the negotiation of a loan, but 

I am speaking of outstanding bonds. 

Mr._ BLAINE. That rate never was paid in borrowing. 

:Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. In addition to what the Senator from 

Maine has so well said as to the rate of interest paid when these treaties were made, I call the attention of the Senator from Iowa to the fact 

that 5 per cent: was the"lowest the Government had ever paid most 

probably up to that time; and certainly it was lower than the average 

of the Government loans at the time these treaties were made. But in 

addition to, that, the Senator from Connecticut and the Senator from 

Kentucky have both said that 4 per cent. is a fair rate. I think so. Why f I think it is a better investment at that rate in Government 

bonds to-day than any business investment at 6 per cent. ; and that 

:,y~oven. Every day from one to ten millions or from one to twenty · i'bns (I believe it has been as high as $20,000,000 in some cases) of 

United States bonds are being taken at 4 per cent., and why f They are exempt from taxation; and that exemption makes them equivalent to more than 6 per cent. ordinarily. In the city of New York 

probably snc!h an investment at 3 per cent. would be equivalent to 6 

per cent.; and so to-day an investment at 4 per eent. in Government 

bonds in New York and other places is better than an ordinary busi- ness operation at 7 per cent. or 6 per cent. 

Mr. McMILLAN. Will the Senator from West Virginia allow ine 

to ask him a question f 

Air. DAVIS, of West Virginia. Certainly. . Mr. McMILLAN. Would the exemption from taxation affect these 

Indian funds at all, beneficially or otherwise f 

Mr. D~VIS, of West Virginia. Certainly. 

M.r. 1ric:MILLAN. Would the Indians receive any benefit from 

thatf 

Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. Certainly. If the Indian fund was invested l.n any other stocks; if it was invested in bank stocks, or if the Senator should borrow it, or if it were invested in any other 

way, it would most surely have to pay taxes. Who would have 1o 

pay them f They would nave to come out of the income. Certainly 

it would affect the Indian investment. Although my friend on the 

left [Mr. BECK] has accepted 4t per cent., I believe now that 4 per 

cent. would be the proper rate, because we are to look to the time, as the Senator from Iowa bas just said, when the rate at whic4 the United 

Stat.es can borrow money will be 3t per cent. or perhaps 3, and it will 

be a more permanent investment and be better for all concerned from 

the fact, as the Senator from Maine has so well said1 that at the time 

the treaties we are now acting under were made tne ra~e fixed was lower tb{ID the Government borrowed money for. The Government 

paid 6 per cent. on an average then i and for that reason tl1e_precedent was set at that time that we shoUld pay the lowest rate of interest 

that the Government was paying, and being exempt from taxation it was a proper and a fair rate of interest. So the people of the country 

every day are subscribing largely to the Government loa11 at 4 per 

cent., and doing that in. preference to investing the money in securities at home. 

Mr. CONKLING. Mr. President, if the Senator from West Virginia 

has before him a treaty justifying his argument, there is ·no doubt 

about his conclusion. If be bas a treaty binding the United States 

to pay the Indians at least the lowest rate of interest from time to 

time, then he bas the premise on which be argues. 

Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. The Senator from New York, I know, 

will rulow me a word. 

Mr. CONKLING. Certainly . . Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. I said that when treaties citedhere 

to-day were made the rate fixed by them was lower than the average 

rate of the Government loan. I made no statement such as the Senator now ha.s made. 

Mr. CONKLING. I shall not deal with that assertion, because I 

think it has nothing in the world to do with the question before us. If I have made a contract with the honorable Senator from West 

Virginia to pay him 5 per cent. interest, the reasons which moved me to make that contract have nothin~ to do with the question, when 

tli.e question is whether I am 'to fullill it or no. ·The reason may be 

that I thought it a better contract than I could make·with somebody 

else. The reason may be that I had such a 1·egard for the honorable 

Senator from West Virginia that I preferred to make the contract with 

him, even· upon terms not quite so good, than to make it with some less reliable man. But all that has nothing in the world, I repea.tA.~o 

do with my obligation, when he comes to call upon me for a fu11lllment of that contract. 

The case before us is that of having made a contract, a solemn con- tract, known as a treaty, by which contract we agreed to do a certain 

thing. What was it f To pay from time to time in the future at 

lea-st the lowest rate of interest then ruling f Not nt all. It was to 

pay so many dollars and so many cents, and to pay it absolutely, not 

conditioned upon the ups or downs of future advantage. What door 

is open then to go back and· consider why we did this, and whether we might have done something else, and whether at some other time we would have done that. Mr. President, it is the first step that 

costs. Open the dnor for that argument, and yon can prove a case for repudiation whenever interest or motive demands repudiation. 

I heard the honorable Senator from Texas [Mr. MA."'mY] saying 

something a few moments ago of this being a contract with a weak 

and defenseless party on the other side. I was glad to bear him say 

it, glad to have the Senate reminded that we ought not to take advantage of the power, of the impunity, growing out·of the fact that 

instead of dealing with one of the great treaty-making powers of 

the globe we are dealing with the remnants of broken and scattered 

Indian tribes. I say that so far from lowering the standard and re- sorting to arguments of profit and loss to evade an agreement, wo ought to see to it that even more certainly, even more conscientiously 

than in another case, we shall fall short in nothing of the honest re- quirement of our obligation. We agreed topay5per cent. The Senator from West Virginia says that was a low interest at that tim~. 

Grant it; and, if he should say it was a high interest at that time; 

grant it. , . My purpose was to try to attract the attention of the Senate to the 

fact, if it be a fact, that the point in judgment here is not what we would like to do now, not what we wish had been done at another 

time, not what the reasons were which made past a.ction wise or otherwiseMr. MERRThiON. May I ask the Senator :frooi New York for in· 

formation, whether there was an express rate of interest stipulated 

for in the treaty f 

1\Ir. CONKLING. Yes, sir. 

Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. Does not the Senator know--

Mr. CONKLING. Not in some of them, if the Senator from West 

Virginia will pardon me one moment, and I hear a Senator say "not 

in some of them," in all of them not. I am talking oi. those treaties, of which there are a number which, in so many words, guarantee fi 

per cent. interest. 

Mr. MERRDION. · It seems to me, then, we are bound to pay it. 

lli. BLAINE. Nobody d.i.ffers on that question . . Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. Will the Senator from New York 

allow me ro rem~rk that he misunderstood me to say that I would 

disturb the treaties now in existence f Whatever I said referred to 

moneys to be put in the Treasury hereafter or that maybe there un• invested now, not to the treaties which stipulate a fixed rate of interest; because, as the Senator understands, the Senator from 'Vermont 

has already offered an amendment which provides expressly that the 

bill shall not afl'ect the present treaties. 

Mr. -<JONKLING. Will the Senator tell me, then~ why it was that he so ur~ently referred to the fnct, and repeated it, that when 5 per cent. was fixed as the amount it was lower than the rate of intocest wbicli 

then prevailed f 

Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. Certainly I will. 

Mr. CONKLING. And that therefore we might proceed to make it 

the lowest rate now Y 

Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. Oh, yes, I will tell the Senator. 

Mr. CONKLING. Why was it 1 

Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. The object was to sh9w that at that 

time the law-making power selected the lowest rate of interest that was then in existence to base these treaties upon; and therefore the 

conclusion would be with us, now that we are doing the same thing 

in making a new treaty, that we should follow the precedent that was then established. 

Mr. CONKLING. That was the argument then, Mr. President; 

that because in past times in making treaties they fixed the lowest! 

rate of interest, therefore, if we were going to make a treaty now, it 

would be wise to do that. I agree to that. I did not know there was any such question before the Senate. I did not know that we were making Indian treaties here now. On the contrary I thought that we were acting upon a bill which proposed to deal with Indian treaties 

already made, and only with such Indian treaties. If there-is real'ly 

the pl'ojet of a new Indian tJ:eat.y before us, then I have been slumbering so much that I did not understand that. Surely in common with other Senators I understood the ar~ument to be that bec:tnseoriginally when the rate of interest was nxed that rate was the lowest, or below the lowest current rate of interest, ergo it would be a performance of the spirit of that contract if-we now paid the rate of 

interest at the lowest current at present. If that was not the argument, then I greatly misapprehended it; and I find that I am not 

alone in the misapprehension under which I was laboring. Wlleu the 

Senator returns to the suggestion he made once before, that tho bill 

is to operate only upon moneys which shall in the future come int~ 

onr bands, subject to engagements which do not exist now, tllen I 

have only to say, as I said before, that the bill for such a pnr[.)OSe and 

with such an interpretation, instead of being what it sbunl<l be~ is, it seems to me, a very roundabout, a very evasive, and a very unintelligible way of expressing such a meaning. 

Mr. WINDOM. I move to lay aside the present and all·prior orders 

and to take up the naval appropriation bill. 

Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. I hope the Senator from :Minnesota 

will allow me a word before he does that. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Does the Senator from Minnesota. 

yield to the Senator from West Virginia f 

l\Ir. 'VINDOM. For a moment. 

Mr. DAVIS, of West Vir!!i.nia. The Senator frou1 New York cer- tainly shot very wide of the mark when he said that I alluded 1p 

treaties already made. Many Senators sittin'g arouutlme who listened 

to me did not think I said any such thing. The Seuator from New 
1879. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 605 

York was far from the mark when he supposed that I had any allusion whatever to treaties already in existence, and his misapprehension may be accounted for from the fact that I think the Senator 

from New York is usually engaged at something else when a Senator 

ia speaking. Therefore I am not surprised that be did not catch just 

exactly what I meant. I may have put it unintelligibly to the Senate, 

but certainly the Senator could not have listened to me or he would 

not have made his argument if he had, for it is «;>n a different line 

from what I said altouether. 

The Senator from New York said something about repudiation. I 

do not see what this question has to do with repudiation. I am unable to see what it has to do with it in the most remote degree. 

Nobody has intimated such a thing here as that we intended to get 

rid of an agreement, but on the contrary it ha.s been said that all 

"agreement-S ought to be carried out faithfully. The bill relates to 

moneys now in the Trea.sury that must find an investment or moneys 

that hereafter must find an investment. 

The Senator from New York spoke of my referring to an Indian 

treaty·now befgre us. The Senator knew that I know better than 

that, and that there is no Indian treaty before us at this moment. 

Every Senator in the Senate knew that there was no such treaty before us. • . Mr. CONKLING. I hope the Senator clid not understand me to 

impute to him a belief that ther~ was an Indian treaty before the Senate. 

Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. 'fhe Senat-or said as much as though 

I believed it. 

Mr. CONKLING. Ob, no; the Senator from West Virginia is quite 

wrong. 

Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. What did the Senator say t 

Hr. CONKLING~ He is almost as wrong as he thinks I am. I said 

if we had an Indian treaty, or the pl'ojet I believe was my expression, of an Indian treaty before us now, then I could understand the 

force of the argument, but as we had not I could not understand it. 

That is what I said. 

Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. Well, that is just about the same thing, and the· Senator has not got a great way from saying it now ; 

he reassertsmerelywhat he said before. However,itishardlyworth 

while to pursue the matter further. But I repeat tha.t I believe 4 per 

cent. is a pr9per rate of interest, and I believe it is more than equi va- lent to 6 per cent. interest in ordinary business transactions; that is, 

the Government interest of 4 per cent. is better than ordinary busi- . ness transactions at 6 or at 7 per cent., which is th~ legal interest, I 

believe, in New York; and to-day the people of New York are investing largely in Government bonds at 4 per cent. instead of loaning 

their money at home on the very best security at 7 per ce:p.t. That is 

the argument I attempted to advance, and if the Senator from New 

York had been listening to me hewould have seen what !meant, and 

he would'ha.ve known whether or not I said what he imputes to me. Several Senators addressed the Chair. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Does the Senator from Minnesota 

insist on his motion f 

Mr. WINDOM. I now submit my motion that the Senate proceed 

to the consideration of the naval appropriation bill. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. It is moved that the present bill be 

discontinued, for the purpose of taking up the navaJ... appropriation 

bill. M~t. ANTHONY. I do not object to the motion of the Senator from 

Minnesota, but I give notice that when the Calendar is taken up 

again under the rule I shall ask the Chair to enforce the rule. The 

bill has not been discussed under the rule at all to-day. The rule 

requires that "each Senator shall be entitled to speak once, and for 

fiye minutes only." Many of the Senators have spoken ten or fifteen 

minutes at a time. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The rule provides for fur.ther discussion by unanimous consent, and the Chair considered that the 

debate was so profressing, and consequently be did not call attention to the rule. t is in the power of a Senator at any time to have 

the rule e!Uorced by calling attention to it and asking .that it be 

enforced. 

Mr. ANTHONY. I shall interpose objection to such a debate at 

another time. 

Mr. HOAR. I wish to inquire if the motion of the Senator from 

Minnesota is necessary, and if the order does not terminate after the 

expiration of half an hour on the objection of any Senator under the 

rule it.self 7 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. That is the construction of the 

Chair. 

Mr. ALLISON. It is not necessary, I submit, for the Senator from 

Minnesota to make his motion. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. He ilas made it, and it is in order. 

Mr. ALLISON. I know, but of course the bill will come up regularly to-morrow when the Calendar is reached again. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. It will come up on the call of the 

Calendar. · . 

Mr. EDl\lUNDS. I do not know anything about that. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on the motion of the 

Senator from Minnesota t.o lay aside the present and all prior orders 

a.nd praceed to the consideration of the naval appropriation bill. 

The motion was agreed to. · 

Mr. BLAINE. That lays aside the patent bill. 

Mr. WADLEIGH. Informally, aa I understand. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. No; it does not lay aside anything informally. 

It postpones all prior orders. 

Mr. WAD LEIGH. Is that the object of the Senator from Minnesota ! 

Mr. HOAR. Of course that is the effect of i t. Mr. WINDOM. l\Iy object is simply to get up the naval appro- priation bill. I do not desire to postpone the Senator's patent bill at 

all except for that one purpose. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Chair would rule that the effect 

of the motion is to postpone that bill. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Certainly, but the Senator from New Hampsh'ire can move to take it up to-morrow. 

Mr. HOAR. I understood the Chair to sustain what I intended as 

a point of order on the motion. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Chai.i- sustained the point of 

order that one objection would cause the consideration of the Indian 

trust fund bill to go over; but that fact, in the opinion of the Chair, 

does not make the motion of the Senator from Minnesota out of 

order. 

Mr. HOAR. My point was that the rule adopted on motion of the 

Senator from Rhode Island [Mr. ANTHONY] directs the Senate to proceed with that order of business for the half hour after one o'clock, 

and after that time that order of business terminates on the objection 

of any Senator, and a motion to lay it aside is not in order. That is 

my point. 

Mr. ANTHONY. Then the patent bill goes over. Mr. HOAR. That would be laid aside informally. My point is 

that the motion of the Senator from Minnesota is not necessary. 

Mr. WINDOM. I have no choice, so that the naval appropriation 

bill pe taken up. . Mr. EDMUNDS. The Senate has voted, ancl the motion has beea 

agreed to. The na-val appropriation bill is before the Senate. 

Mr. HOAR. I understood the Chair to sustain my point of order. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Ob, no, the Chair only said it was a good point, but that the Senator from Minnesota had a right to make the motion. 

Let us hear the bill read, Mr. President. . Mr. WI~TDOM. In the discussion on the pat-ent bill yesterday I 

said that I would not attempt to postpone it to-day, and as it seems to be the understanding that the motion which I made for another 

purpose has that effect, if I may have the consent of the Senate, I ask 

that the vote on my motion be reconsidered . Mr. EDMUNDS. The Senate can take up the patent bill to-morrow~ 

Let us hear the naval bill read. 

Mr. WINDOM. I move to reconsider the vote just taken, and I . will then ask consent of the Senate to take up the naval appropriation bill. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I do not object to that. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Does the Chair understand the mo- tion of the Senator from Minnesota to be to reconsider the vote by 

which the naval appropriation bill was taken upf 

Mr. WINDOM. Yes, because I feel in good faith bound to do that on the statement I made yesterday. 

The PRESIDL~G OFFICER. The question is on the reconsideration of the motion by which the naval appropriation bill was taken 

up. . Mr. EDMUNDS. On that I should like to hear the naval bill read, 

to see whether we ought to reconsider the vote, if the Senate wants 

to pass it. 

Mr. HOAR. I trust the Senator from Vermont will not insist on holding the Senate to that vote. ' The motion was put under a total 

misapprehension. I understood that the Chair sustained my point of 

order. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. It was not put under a total misapprehension, so far as I am concerned. 

Mr. WADLEIGH. I hope my friend, the Senator from Vermont, 

will not insist upon the Senate doin:g what the Senator from Minuesota says would be a breach of good faith on his part. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Oh, no, I will not insist . on anything; I am too 

yielding for that. I am willing to reconsider every vote ~at the 

Senate has taken this session, so far as I can remember. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Does the Senator from Vermont insist on the reading of the nayal appropriation bill f 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Oh, no. Mr. CONKLING. May I make an inquiry? Is not a motion in 

order now to reconsider the vote by which the patent bill was post.- poned f 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The motion has been made to recon- sider the vote by which the naval-a:ppropriation bill was taken up. 

The Chair considers the proper motion to be to reconsider the vote 

by which the further consideration of the patent bill was laid aside 

and the naval appropriation bill taken up. 

Mr. CONKLING. Now the Senator from New Hampshire can make 

the motion to reconsider because there was no division on the vote ; 

anybody can make it; and I feel bound for one to say that although 

I do not know that I had an active part in this postponement, the ~enator from New Hampshire had a right to suppose that to-day without any body's objection he would be allowed to go on with the patent 

bill ; and therefore, unless there be something about this that I do 
'606 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. J -ANUARY 21, 

not understand, it seems to me we ought to reconsider this motion by 

general coiisent and let him proceed with the patent bill. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Chair understands such to be 

the purpose of the Senator from Minnesota in making his motion. 

The question is on the motion of the Senator from Minnesota. 

:Mr. WINDOM. I submitted the motion to reconsider, not to proceed with the patent bill, but to let it go over informally, because I 

feared it might be construed as not quite coming up to the understanding yesterday. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. There is no objection to a reconsideration of the 

vote, and that will put the patent bill back where it was. Mr. WINDOM. lf the motion to reconsider is carried I shall ask 

that the present and all prior orders be laid aside informally for the 

purpose of taking up the naval appropriation bill. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Let us know now what is the pending question, 'lli. President. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The pending question is the motion 

to reconsider the vote by which the naval appropriation bill was taken up; and that vote having been reconsidered, the question will 

be whether the Senate will take up that bill. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. What is the business before the Senate preceding 

this present order 'I What is the prior order before the Senate 'f 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The continuing order of the Senate, as the Chair understands, is the consideration of the patent bill. The 

bill proposing to invest the Indian trust funds was taken up after 

the morning hour by virtue of the resolution submitted by the Senator from Rhode Island. That bill was liable to go over at any time 

after the half hour should have expired, upon an objection, leaving as the business before the Senate the patent bill. . Mr. EDMUNDS. Then, if I understand the Chair, the patent bill 

being before the Senate, the motion of the Senator from Minnesota. 

is tolay that order aside informally to take up the naval appropriation bill. 

Mr. WINDOM. Tl!at is the question. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on the motion of the 

Senator from Minnesota to reconsider the vote by which the Senate 

agreed to take up the naval appropriation bill. 

The motion to reconsider was agreed to. 

MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE. 

A message from the Hense of Representatives, by Mr. GEORGE M. 

ADAMs, its Clerk, announced that the House had passed a bill (H. R. 

No. 4810) to provide for the settlem6nt of all outstanding claims 

against the District of Columbia, and conferring jurisdiction on the 

Ceurt of Claims to hear the same, and for other purposes; in which it 

requested the concurrence of the Senate. 

'!;he message also announced that the Honse bad agreed to the 

amendment of the Senate to the bill (H. R. No. 613) subjecting the 

Fort Wayne military reservation in the State of Arkansas to entry as other, public lands in said State. - The message further announced that the House had passed the following bills: 

A bill (S. No. 1297) for the protection of dairymen and to prevent 

deception in sales of butter and cheese in the District of Columbia ; 

and 

A bill (S. No. 1374) authorizing the chancellor of the Smithsonian 

Institution to appoint an acting secretary }n certain cases. 

ENROLLED BILLS SIGNED. 

The messaae also announced that the Speaker of the House had 

signed the following enrolled bills ; and they were thereupon signed 

by the Vice-President: - A l;_)ill (H. R. No. 5501) making appropriations for the payment of 

invalid and other pensions of the United States for the year ending 

J nne 30, 1880 ; and - A bill (S. No. 109) defining the manner. in which certain land scrip 

may be assigned and located or applied by actual settlers, and pro- ~ng for the issue 9f pa.tenUI in the name of the locator or his legal 

representatives. - PETITION. 

Mr. MITCHELL. I :present the petition of Alexander R. Shepherd, 

praying an appropriatiOn for the payment of the rent of premises 

known as No. 915 E street northwest, in the city of Washin~on, 

used and occupied by the Government for the use of the Post-Office 

Department. As it is brief I ask that it be printed, and referred t• 

the Committee on Claims. · Mr. EDMUNDS. Oh, no, do not print it. We cannot print peti- . tiona. 

Mr. 1tllTCHELL. I hope there will be no objection to printing it. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER, (Mr. WITHERS.) Is there objection ·to having the petition printed' 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I object; not because I object to this particular 

petition, but it is very expensive to be printing petitions, and I object, every time my atten•ion is called to it~ to printing petitions of 

that character. 

Mr. MITCHELL. I move that the petition be referred to the Committee on Claims. - The motion was agreed to. 

NAVAL APPROPRIATIO~ RILL. 

Mr. WINDOM. I now move to lay aside the pending and all prior 

orders informally for the purpose of proceeding to the consideration 

of the naval appropriation bill. 

The PRESIDING QFFICER. Is there objection 7 The Chair hears none. 1 

The Senate, as in Committee of the Whole, proceeded to consider 

the bill (H. R. No. 5313) making appropriations for the naval service 

for the year ending June 30, 1880, and for other purposes. 

Mr. WINDOM. As I intei\d to ask the Senate to act on the few 

amendments proposed by the Committee on Appropriations as the 

bill is being read, I will state briefly what those amendments are. The total of the bill as it passed the House is $14,018,468.95. The 

total of the estimates for 1880 was $14,187,381.45. The total of the 

act for 1879 was $14,152,603.70. The amount added to too House bill 

by the Senate committee is $86,GOO, making the total of the bill as reported $14,104,968.95. As reported, the bill is less than the estimates by $82,412.50 ; and !lS reported, it is less than the act for 1879 

by $47,634.75. The items of increase proposed by the Senate- com- mittee are as follows : - For purcba.se of postage-stamps, $5,000. 

For clothing and bedding destroyed, $1,200. 

For gratuities and medals, $500. 

For repairs to dome of telescope, $300. 

For changes in controlling clocks and time signals, $500-. 

For provisions and clothing, water for ships, &c., $75,000. 

For purchase of testing machine and contingencies, $4,000. 

Makihg a total of $86,500 proposed by the Senate Committee on Appropriations. I ask that the amendments of the committee be acted 

upon in their order as the bill is read. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The bill will be read, and the amendments of the CommUtee on Appropriations will be acted upon in their 

or(ler as they are reached. 

The Secretary proceeded to read the bill. . The first amendment of th~ Committee on Appropriations was, after 

line 87, to insert : - · 

For the purchase of ordinary postage-stamps for use on offieial matter, to be sent to foreign countries in pursuance of the requirementa of tlre united postal union~ 

$5,000; to be available on and after April!, 18i9. 

The amendment wa..q agreed to. 

The next amendment was, after line 9'2, to insert : 

To pay for clothing and bedding of officers and others in the Navy an£1 Ma.rine- C~rps, destroyed .to prevent the spread of disea-se, $1,200; to be available ~­

diately. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The next amendment was, after line 96, t.o insert : 

For gratnities and medals of honor, under section 1407 of the-Revised Statntes 

$500; to be available immediately. ' 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The nex~ amendment was, after line 171, in the appropriations fov 

the Bureau of Navigation, to insert: 

For repairs to dome of twenty-six-inch telescope, $300. 

The amendment was agreed to. _ The next amendment was, a£ter line 173, to insert: 

For changing the method of controlling clocks and time-signal!t, $500~ 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The next amendment was in the,appropria.tions for the Bureau of 

Provisions and Clothing, in line ~no, after the words "one million," 

to strike out "and twenty-five" and insert ''one ·hundred;" so as to. - make the clause read : 

For provisions for the seamen and marines; commuted rations- f01' officers, seamen, and marines; expenses of inspectors and storehouses; and for purchase oil water for ships, $1,100,000. 

The amendment was a.greed to. 

The next amendment was in the appropriations for the Bureau of 

Steam Engineering, after line 3..~, to insert: 

For the purchase of one testing machine for malilllg tests of plate-iron, &c.,. 

$3,000. - -

The amendment wa~ agreed to. 

The next amendment was, after line 357, to insert: 

For contingencies, $1,000. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The Secretary resumed and concluded the reading of the bill. . Mr. WHYTE. Mr. President, I merely desire to make a. change, if 

the Senate will concur in the suggestion I am about to make, in re- gard to one or two trivial matters as far as the Government is con- cerned, but of some importance to individuals. At the Naval Academy the gas-fitter has been reduced from $3.50 to $2.50' a day, which 

is much lower than a gas-fitter and plumber reeeives from private 

employers, and I really think that it is an unjust discrimination-against 

that sort of mechani9 who requires a good deal of skill in the performance of his duty. I therefore move to strike out " two," in line 

407, page 18, and insert'' three." It '\\jll not ·change the general appropriation, because it is calculated on all the days of the year, and 

probably it -will not be absorbeQ. even with this amendment. 

Mr. WINDOM. I do not quite understand the amendmellt of the 

Senator, because I could not hear him distinctly. If it increases the 

amount, I raise the point of order that _there has been no notice. . Mr. WHYTE. It is not likely that it will increase the amount of 

appropriation at all, because the appropriation is made upon th& 

basis of all the days in the year, and they are not paid except for the 
1879. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. ; 601 

days they work. Consequently this $1 per day will not increase the 

whole amount of the appropriation, I am satisfied, and I hope, therefore, iny friend, tbe Senator from Minnesota, will not object. Mr. WINDOM. It seems to raise the pay from two dollars and a half to three dollars and a half a day. I feel at liberty to make this 

point of order, because I believe we have appropriated fully up to 

the estimates, and ought not to exceed them. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The point of order being raised, the 

Chair ~ustains it. 

Mr. WHYTE. Suppose I divide the difference and get the point 

withdrawn. Say $3 inst.ead of $2.50. It is a very unjust discrimination against thi& man. Personal application was made to me by sev- eral gentlemen residing in Annapolis, and. I made inquiry and found 

that no good mechanic can be employed by private people as a plumber 

and gas-fitter combined, doing both kinds of work, for any such price as $2.50 a day. Three dollars and a half is the usual price. It is cer- tainly the price paid in Baltimore for an ordinary mechanic. 

1\Ir. WINDOM. Another reason why I feel at liberty to insist on the point of order is that last year the Senate tried to increase this 

but failed to accomplish it, and the snm appropriated is fully up to 

the estimate of this year, and nobody has complained until the Senator from Maryland. · Mr. WHYTE. I have three or four letters from prominent people 

of Annapolis--

:Mr. EDMUNDS. The rnle is against yon. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The point of order being raised, the 

Chair is bound to decide the amendment out of order. 

Mr. WHYTE. There were one or two other amendments that I 

proposed to offer of a trivial character, but the inexorable manner of 

the two Senators over there is such that I shall abandon any attempt 

to rectify these defects. · Mr. EDMUNDS. The appropriations people are very rigorous. 

Mr. ALLISON. I offer the following amendment: 

In line 158, strike ont all aft&- the word " astronomers " down to and including the word "dollars," in line 160, and insert in lieu thereof: 

One at et.~ during first thre.e years of !!6rvice; one a~ 1, 7~0 during sewnd three 

years of serv1ce ; and one at $2,100 after mne years serVlce ; :.n all, .f5,300. 

That has the authority of the Secretary of the Navy and Admiral 

Rod gem. 

Mr. WHYTE. I shonld like to ask whether that increases the 

appropriation, because I do not think a plumber ought to be rejected 

and an astronomer put over his head. I am for the plumbers against 

the astronomers if there is going to be any discrimination. 

l\1r. ALLISON. In other words, you object now to the astronomers 

because you cannot get the plumber f 

Mr. WHYTE. Precisely. I am,perfectly willing to t ake care of 

the astronomers if the plumber be taken care of. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Does the Senator from l\Iaryland 

raise the point of order 'I 

Mr. WHYTE. I do. I am fer equality all around. 

Mr. ALLISON. I am willing to tak~ care of the other. 

The PRESIDING. OFFICER. The point of order being raised, the 

C:hair decides the amendment. out of order. 

The bill was reported to the Senate as amended, and the amendments were concurred in. 

Mr. WINDOM. The Senator from Maine [Mr. BLAINE] desires to 

address the Senate briefly upon this bill; but does not wish to go on this afternoon at this late hour of the day; I therefore ask that the 

bill be laid over, and it can be acted on to-morrow. 

Mr. ALLISON. I move that the Senate proceed to the consideration of executive -business. . · Mr. BLAINE. At half past one to-morrow, if it will be agreeable to 

the chairma» of the Committee on Appropriations, I propose to be 

heard. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. . '\Ve cannot fix certainly the time ; but it will be 

when the bill is up. 

Mr. BLAINE. Do I understand that the Senator will object to its 

coming up to-morrow ? 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I cannot say that certainly. There may be some- thing else to-morrow that may require immediate attention. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Chair understood the Senator 

from Minnesota to move that the bill be passed over. Mr. ALLISON. Pen~ng that, I move that the Senate proceed to 

the consideration of eKecutive business. . Mr. BLAINE. The pending business, the unfinished business, then, 

will be the naval appropriation bill, which comes up after the morn- ing hour, at half past one to-morrow. 

Mr. EDMUNDS and others. That is it. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on the motion of the 

Senator from Iowa. 

The motion was agreed to. 

Mr. BLAINE. Before the doors are closed, I desire to give noti'ce 

that I wish to have two amendments to the naval bill printed. I submit the amendments now and ask that they be printed. They need 

not be read. 

The PRESIDIWG OFFICER. The amendments will be received 

and printed. 

Mr. BECK. Will they be su}Jject to any points of order ~-4'-terward. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Of course. 

~ 

Mr. BLAINE. Certainly. · They are not offered yet. It is merely a notice given that I shall offer them. 

EXECUTIVE SESSION. 

The Senat.e proceeded. to the consideration of executive basinesi .. After twelve minutes spent in executive session. the doors were re- ?pened.z and (at four o'clock :md seven minutes p.m.) the ienat.e adJOurnea. 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. 

TuESDAY, JanU(J.ry 21, 1879. 

The Hom;e met at twelve o'clock m. Prayer by the Chaplain, Rev .. W. P. HARRISON, D. D. 

The Journal of yesterday was .read. 

CORRECTION OF THE JOUR..""(AL. 

Mr. :{\URCHARD. t rise to make a correction of the Journal. Thebill numbered 2240 was s~ for consideration after the morning hour. 

I made that suggestion and it was agreed to. . The SPEAKER. It was so ordered, and the Journal will be cor- rected accordingly. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from· New York, [Mr. POTTER.] 

Mr. POTTER. I yield for a moment to the chairman of the C0mmittee on Appropri!'tions .. 

Th'"TERIOR DEP ARTME~ BUILDING. 

l\1r. ATKINS. A letter from the Secretary of the Interior in regard 

t.o the reconstruction or completion of the Interior' Department build- ing was referred to the Committee on Appropriations. I move that 

the Committee on Appropriations be discharged from the further con- Rideration thereof, and that it be referred to the Committee on PublicBuildings and Grounds. 

The motion was agreed to. 

IMPROVEME..~T OF MISSOURI RIVER. 

1\!r. ATKINS, by unanimous consent, from the Committee on Ap-- propriations, reported back the bill (H. R. No. 5738) to apprepriate, money for the improvement of the Missouri River between Yankt<m 

and Sioux City, in the Territory of Dakota; and the Committee on Appropriations was discharged from the further consideration of thesame, and it was referred to the Committee on Commerce. 

S::\llTHSONIAN INSTITUTION. 

l\Ir. COX, of New York. I ask general consent of the Hom;e to 

report from the Committee on the Library the bill (S. No. 1374) to--

authorize the chancellor of the Smithsonian Institution to appoint a~ 

acting secretary to sign vouchers. ~ 

There was no objection, and the bill (S. No. 1374) .authorizing th~ 

chancellor of the Smithsonian Institution to appoint an a-cting secre- tary in certain cases was taken from the Speaker's table, :received its 

several readings, and wa-s passed. · Mr. COX, of New York, moved to reconsider the vote by which the· bill was passed ; and also moved to lay the motion to reconsider on.- the table. The latter motion was agreed to. 

GOLOID METRIC COTh"'AGE. 

Mr. STEPHENS, of Georgia, by unanimous consent, from the Committee on Coina~e, \Veights, and Measures, submitted a report from. 

that committee m relation to the metrical goloid coinage; which was. recommitted to the committee, and ordered to be printed. 

COINAGE OF THE GOLOID METRIC DOLLAR, ET€. 

Mr. STEPHENS, of Georgia, by unanimous consent, submitted a . bill (H. R. No. 6125) to authorize the coinage of the -goloid metricdollar, five dollars, and fractions of a dollar, and of metric gold coin. 

of standard value; which was recommitted to the Committee on 

Coinage, Weights, and Measures, and ordered to be printed. 

CENTENNIAL MONUMENT. 

Mr. STEPHENS, of Georgia, by unanimom; consent: from the Gommittee on Rnles, moved that the committee be discharged from the · further consideration of a resolution in relation to a centennial mona- ment and that it be referred to a select committee. 

The SPEAKER. That subject is already before a select committe& ~~&~ • 

Mr. STEPHENS, of Georgia. But this subject was referred to the· Committee on Rn1es, and I move that the committee be discharged' 

from ·the further consideration of the subject and that it be referred.. 

to a select committee. 

The SPEAKER. The Chair is quite distinct in his recollection that, this subject is before·a committee of thirteen. 

Mr. STEELE. I beg leave to say t)lat the subject of this resC)lution. 

is now in the hands of a committee of this House, of which the gentleman from New York [Mr. PATTERSO~] is chairman, and that that 

committee bas agreed upon an adverse report. 

Mr. STEPHENS, of Georgia. Then I mo-,e,that the resolution b& 

referred to that committee. 

The motion was agreed t~. 

•