1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1561 

The yeaa and nays were not ordered. 

The division being completed the noes were 14. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The ayes have it. 

Mr. PADDOCK. I call again for the yeas and nays. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The yeas and nays have been demanded 

and refused. The motion is agreed to. The question recurs on the 

amendment of the Senator from Michigan, [.Mr. CHRISTIANCY.] 

Mr. BURNSIDE. I move that the Senate do now adjourn. 

Mr. CAMERON, of Wisconsin. I ask the Senator to withdraw the 

motion. 

Mr. BURNSIDE. For a moment. 

:Mr. CAMERON, of Wisconsin. I am willing to consent to an adjournment with the llnderstanding suggested by the s~nator from 

Delaware that the bill remain the unfiriished business. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. It is so as a. matter of course under the 

rules. 

Mr. BURNSIDE. I move that the Senate adjourn. 

The motion waa agreed to; and (at five o'clock and three minutes 

p. m.) the Senate adjourned. 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. 

THURSDAY, Marek 7, 1878. 

The House met at twelve o'clock m. Prayer by the Chaplain; Rev. 

w. P. Il.ARRISON. 

The Journal of yesterday waa read and approved. 

POLmCAL DISABILITIES OF ROBERT H. CHILTON. 

Mr. HARTRIDGE. I ask unanimous consent to report from the 

Committee on the Judiciary a bill to remove the political disabilities 

of Robert H. Chilton. It is accompanied with a petition in the usual 

form. 

There being no objection, the bill (H. R. No. 3721) was reported, and 

read a first and second time. 

The accompa.nyiug petition was read, as follows : 

To the Congress of the United States : 

The undersigned. Robert H. Chilton, respectfully asks for a. removal of all his 

disabilities under and by reason of the fourteenth amendment of the Constitution 

of the United States. He was an officer in the United States Army and resigned 

in 1861 and took a commission in the army of the Confederate States, whereby he 

has incurred disabilities which he prays may be removed by act of Congress; and 

he will ever pray, &c. 

R. H. CHILTON. 

The bill was ordered to be engrossed for a third reading, read the 

tbird time, and passed, two-thirds v11ting in favor thereof. 

EXPLORATION OF VENEZUELA. 

1\!r. WILLIS, of Now York. I hold in my hand a memorial signed 

by a number of distinguished citizens of New York, ~etting forth the 

advantages of an exploration of Venezuela and praymg for the same. I ask its reference to the Committee on Naval Affairs and hope the 

Honse will grant unanimous consent that it be printed in the RECORD 

for information. 

There being no objection, the petition was referred to the Committee on Naval Aifairs, and ordered to be printed in the RECORD. It is as follows: 

Petition of Rnmon Paez, setting forth the advantages and praying for an explora- tion of Venezuela. · 

To the horwrable the House of Representative8, cEc. : 

The undersijmed, long a. resident and citizen of the United States, bnt. a native of 

the Repn blic of Venezuela, represents that., although most of the countries of South 

and Central America. have been visited at various t.imes by scientific commissions 

of the United States with a view to studying their natural and commercial capa. 

bill ties, Venezuela, the one nearest our shores and perhaps the richest of all in nat- ural and a~ricultnral products, remains comparatively unknown to us. To such an extent 18 this the case that even th~ geographical 'divisions of the COWl try are popularly confounded with other places in the neigh boring republics. Nevertheless 

Venezueia ships to this country, in coffee, hides, &c., more than double tho amount of our exports to her, as is conclusively shown by the last report of the Bureau 

of Statistics, while the enterprise, energy, and capital of a few American citizens 

have brought to light and are developin~ the extraordinatily rich gold region of 

Venezuela Gtilima. This is the reJ!ion of the famous "ElDorado" which the in· 

domitable Sir Walter Raleigh sought to annex by force to the Crown of England more than two hundred years ago, an effort which eventunlly co thim his life. Yet 

this long.forj!utten and romantic field of adventure, with the vast territory encom- passing it, would haYe remained a perfect terra incognita but for the efforts of our ~ountrymen who have brought it into notice within half a dozen years. But much 

remains to be accomplishecf yet, both in mining and commercial enterprises, for 

this is the country watered by the great river Orinoco, (second only in importance to the mighty Amazon,) whose numerous tributaries have 1heir rise principally on the Andes of Colombia and Venezne1'\. It is therefore with the view of exploring 

this region as well as the mountain or coast ranf!:e of Venezuela bordering on the 

Caribbean Sea as far as the lake of Maracaibo that the undersil,llled respectfully 

solicits the co-operation of the Government of the United States. '!'his undertaking 

is fraught with vast adYantages to the trade and industry of this country, but more especia1ly to those citizens of the United States who have acquired, as already st:>trd, large possessions m mining lands and other property in Vene.zuela. Guiana. 

For this purpose a. Government steamer of light draught and a comp.,tent commis· 

sion of scientific specialists deta.1led on this service would be amply sufficient. The 

government of Venezuela being at present represented by a mo .. t'enlit!htened and 

energetic administration the undersigned feels certain tllat the comm1 sion would meet with all the assistance that the country can afford, thus lessening the expenses of the expedition and adding greatly to the stock of information to be accounted 

by it. 

Very respectfully, 

RAMON PAEZ. NEW YORK. Februanj 1, 1878. 

We, the undersigned, having known the petitioner, Don Ramon Paez, for many 

years, cheerfnlly certify to his intimate lmowledge of the people language, and 

productions of .bis native country and his aptitude to con-duct the exploration 

thereof proposed by him; 

PETER COOPER, Nf*J York. 

A. C. KINGSJ,AND & SONS, Nw York. 

WILS(lN G. HUNT. 

CYRUS W. FIELD. Nf*J York. 

ROYAL PHELPS, Neto York. 

MORRIS K. JESUP, b-f*J York. ISRAEL CORSE, Nf*J York. 

CHA8. B. FOLCRICK, Nf*J York 

JOSE CARLOS TBAOY. 

Consul of Penh in New York. 

JUAN N. NAVARRO, 

Mexican ConsuT,.GtmeraZ. 

JACOB. BAIZ, 

ComuZ.Generalfor Guatemala. and SaJ:r;ador. 

M. SALGAR, 

C611BttZ GTaZ. de Colombia. 

CHAS. P. DALY. 

WM. WALL'S SONS, Nf*J York. 

ALEXANDER I. COTHEAL ConBt~l·GeneraZ of Nicaragua. 

A. E. BEACH. 37 Park Row. 

DALLE1'T BOULTON & CO., 135 Pearl Street. 

MESSAGE FROM THE SENATE. 

A message from _the Senate, by Mr. SYMPSON, one of its clerks, an- nounced that the Senate had passed bills of the following titles; in 

which he was directed to ask the concurrence of the House: 

A bill (S. No. 106) to authorize a long bond for the investment of 

savings; and 

A bill (S. No. 528) to authorize the Worthington and Sioux Falls 

Railroad Company to extend its railroad into the TelTitory of Dakota 

to the village of Sioux ]!,ails. 

The message further announced that the Senate bad passed without 

amendment the following bill: 

A bill (H. R. No. 1947) granting a tJension to Dwight Barrett, late a private Company E, Forty-sixth Regiment Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry. 

. The message further announced that the Senate had passed, wi tb an amendment in which he was directed to ask the concurrence of the 

House, the following bill: 

A bill (H. R. No. 1474) further to suspend the operation of section 

5574 of the Revised Statutes of the United States, title 52, in relation 

to guano islands. 

The message further announced that the Senate bad concurred in a resolution of the House of Representatives for the printing of 10,000 

copies of Professor Hayden's annua.l report of geological and geographical survey of the Territories for 1877. 

The message further announced that the Senate had passed a con- current resolution for the printing of 10,500 copies of the Report of 

the Board of Regents of the Smithsonian Institution for 1877; in 

which the concurrence of the House was requested. 

SUPERINTENDENT OF BUILDINGS, SAN FRANCISCO. 

:Mr. LUTTRELL.. I ask unanimous consent to present for adoption now a resolution calling for information. . The Clerk read the resolution, as follows: 

Resolved, That the Secretary of the Treasury Le directed to transmit to the Honse a copy of the report of the special agent of the Treasury Department charged with 

the examination of sundry char_ges preferred.~$ainst Samuel McCullough, super- intendent of buildings in San Francisco, Catirornia, upon which the removal of 

said superintendent ha~ been ordered, together with the evidence appended to the 

report, and a copy of the original charges. 

Mr. CALKINS. I do not object to this resolution if it be modified 

by inserting after the word "directed" the words "if not incompatible with the public service." Resolutions of this kind are usually 

thus restricted. 

Mr. LUTTRELL. I am perfectly willing to accept the modification, t bough I think that generally it is inserted only in resolutions 

directed to the President. 

There being no objection, the resolution, as modified, was adopted. 

RIFLE PRACTICE IN ARMY AND 1\llLITIA. 

Mr. LUTTRELL, by unanimous consent, presented a concurrent 

resolution of the State of California, relative to the encouragement 

of rifle practice in the Army of the United States and in the militia 

of the several States; which was refelTed to the Committee on Military Affairs. 

PUBLIC BUILDQm, KANSAS CITY, ~flSSOURI. 

:Mr. FRANKLIN. I aak consent to have corrected a clerical mnission in a bill passed yesterday, the bill (H. R. No. 3712) to provide for 

the erection of a public building in Kansas City, in the State of 

Missouri. The phrase ''cause to erected" should read "cause to be 

erected." I ask unanimous consent that the word "be" shall be 

inserted. 

There was no objection, and it was ordered accordingly. 

MESSE:NGER FOR FOLDING-ROOM. 

Mr. DURHAM. I call for the regular order. 

The SPEAKER. The regular order being called for, the morning 

hour begins at twenty-one minutes past twelve o'clock; and the 

House re~:~umes the oonsideration of the unfinished business of the 

morning hour of yesterday, being a resolution reported by the gentle-

--
1562 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. MAROH 7, 

man from New Hampshire [Mr. BLAIR] from the Committee-of Accounts. 

The resolution was read, a-s follows: 

Resolved, That a messenger be employed by the Doorkeeper to serve in the folding-room, his pay not to exceed $1,200 a year, to be paid out of the contingent fund 

of the House. 

Mr. ROBERTS. In the absence of the gentleman from New Hampshire, I desire to say that the Committee of Accounts have no doubt 

whatever of the justice and propriety of adopting this resolution ; 

but, in view of the fact that this subject is now under consideration 

before the Committee on Civil Service Reform, I am instructed by 

the Committee of Accounts to move that the resolution be referred 

to that committee, in order that they may give it further consideration. 

The motion was agreed to; and the resolution was accordingly 

referred to the Committee on Civil Service Reform. 

Mr. ROBERTS moved to reconsider the vote just taken ; and also 

moved that the motion to reconsider be laid on the table. 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

EXPERTS FOR INVESTIGATING COMMITTEES. 

Mr. McMAHON. The Committee of Accounts have directed me to 

report a. resolution as a substitute for the resolution offered by the 

gentleman from Illinois [Mr. SPRINGER] and all other resolutions 

asking for clerks and experts to serve the committees investigating 

the expenditures in the various Departments of the Government. 

The resolution was read, as follows: 

Resolved, That the Committee on Rules be, and they are hereby, authorized to 

employ a force of competent experts, not to exceed seven in number, to be assigned by the Speaker to such committees of investigation and for snob time during the 

present session as to him mav seem proper, their compensation to be fixed by the 

Committee of Account-a and to be paid only for the time assi~ed ; and the said 

experU!, before entering on their duties, shall be sworn nccordfug t~ law. 

Mr. McMAHON. I am instructed by the Committee of Accounts 

to yield to the gentleman from Illinois, [Mr. SPRINGER,] that he may 

offer a substitute. 

Mr. SAMPSON. I rise to the point of order that this cannot be 

considered now, as it takes money out of the Treasury. 

The SPEAKER. It provides for the payment of these clerks out 

of the contingent fund of the House. The gentleman will state his 

exact point of order. 

Mr. SAMPSON. It increases the expenses. 

The SPEAKER. The appropriation has already been made for the 

contingent fund of the House. The rule provides that every proposition taking money out of the Treasury must have its first consideration in the Committee of the Whole. The Chair thinks the practice 

has been to allow the House to dispose of the contingent fund in 

whatever manner it sees tit. 

Mr. McMAHON. I will yield now to the gentleman from Illinois 

only for the purpose of offering a substitute. - Mr. SPRINGER. I offer the following substitute for the resolution 

from the Committee of Accounts: 

Resolved, That the Committee on Public Expenditures and the Committees on Expenditures in the State Department, Treasury Department, ·war Department, 

Navy Department, and Post-Office Department, lnt('lrior Department, and in the 

Department of Justice be each authonzed to employ a clerk or expert pending investip:ations by said committees. and that the Committees on Expenditures in the 

Treasury Department and the Post-Office and Post-Roads be each authorized to 

employ not exceeding two experts at any one time and for snob time as said oom- "31ittees may be engaged in their respective investigations. The oompeneation of 

noh clerks and experts shall be fixed by the Committee of Accounts and shall be 

paid out of the contingent fund of the House upon proper certification by the chair· men of the respective committees. 

Mr. :McMAHON. I now yield to the gentleman from Pennsylvania 

for the purpose of offering an amendment to the substitute. 

Mr. MACKEY. I offer the following amendment to the substitute 

of the gentleman from illinois: 

That the Committee on Revolutionary Pensions and the War of 1812 be allowed a clerk, his compensation and date of service to be fixed by the Committee of 

Accounts and be paid out of the contingent fond. 

Mr. McMAHON. I demand the previous question on the resolution, substitute, and amendment; and I will say to the gentlemen on the other side--

Mr. RANDOLPH. You have no right to argue it. - Mr. McMAHON. I will state, then, that it is the understanding, if 

the previous question is seconded, one hour shall be allowed for discussion. 

The House divided; and there were-ayes 89, noes ~. 

Mr. CONGER demanded tellers. 

Tellers were ordered; and Mr. PRICE and Mr. SPRINGER were appointed. The House again divided; and the tellers reported-ayes 150, noes 

88. 

So the previous question was seconded . Mr. PRICE called for the yeas and nays on ordering the main question. 

The yeas and nays were ordered. 

Mr. SPRINGER. Gentlemen seem to be under the apprehension we are not going to allow any debate. AB I understand, an hour 

will be allowed after the previous question has been seconded. 

Mr. McMAHON. I rise to a parliamentary inquiry. For the informatJOn of members, Mr. Speaker, I desire to knowwhetherafterthe 

previous question is seconded an hour's discussion will not be in order 

under the rules. 

The SPEAKER. It will. 

Mr. CONGER. Whether this is argument or not! do not know, hut we cannot hear a word that is said. 

Mr. WIDTE, of Pennsylvania. I hope the Speaker will state the 

question. 

The SPEAKER. The question is on ordering the main question to 

be now put on the report of the Committee of Accounts and the 

amendment in the nature of a substitute moved bv the gentleman 

from Illinois and the amendment to that amendment offered by the 

gentleman from Pennsylvania. 

Mr. SPRINGER. Is it not in order to have an hour's discus ion 

before the question is put on ordering the main question f 

The SPEAKER. It is. 

Mr. SPRINGER. Let us have the discussion now. Mr. MC1t!AHON. Very well. I will yield twenty minutes of my 

iime to the gentleman from illinois. 

Mr. BLAIR. I ask for the reading of the pendin~ propotiitions. 

The resolut.ion and amendments were again read. 

Mr. SPRINGER. Mr. Speaker, I do not offer this substitute for the 

purpose of antagonizing the Committee of Accounts, but from the fact 

that the Committee on Rules, who were charged by this resolution 

with the duty of selecting experts, do not desire to have the responsibility of making the selections. I am authorized at least to speak 

for three members of that committee in that respect. The substitute 

offered pnts the appointment of the necessary clerks or experts in the 

hands of the committees charged with the investigations. I think 

those committees are fully competent to determine what kind of clerical force or experts may be needed. The Committee on Expenditures 

in the Treasury Department and the Committee on the Post-Office 

and Post-Roads, now engaged in very important investigations in ref- erence to the respective Departments they are charged by the resolution of the House to investigate, are authorized to employ each two 

e::x:perts for such time as they may be engaged in their investigations. 

Mr. CANNON, of Illinois. Will my colleague allow me to ask him a. question f 

Mr. SPRINGER. Yes; if it is pertinent to the pending matter. 

Mr. CANNON, of illinois. I am on the Committee on the PostOffice and Post-Roads, and if there has been any action in that com- mittee as to experts, or any necessity for any action, I am not aware of it. If it has been referred to Any committee I do not know it. 

Mr. WAD DELL. The gentleman cannot be aware of it for a very 

good reason. The Committee on the Post-Office and Post-Roads have 

had no formal action in regard to this matter because the chairman was waiting to see if the House was to allow any experts. As I am on the floor I will take this occasion for one moment to say that the 

Committee on the Post-Office and Post-Roads cannot proceed with 

the investigation with which they are charged unless they are given 

the experts provided for in the resolution. The gentleman from Illinois [Mr. CANNON] will hear from me in good time. 

Mr. CANNON, of Illinois. That ma.y be true; but whatever action 

is to be taken I would like to be taken hy the committee instead of some little private understanding of the chairman with one or two of 

the members. I say again if there be any necessity for any experts in 

that committee it has never been hinted at in the committee, so far as I have had knowledge, and I believe I have been present at the 

meetings of the committee all the time. 

Mr. WADDELL. Is the gentleman from illinois aware of the fact 

that the Committee on the Post-Office and Post-Roads contemplate 

any investigation f 

Mr. CANNON, of Illinois. I suppose so. Mr. ·wADDELL. I had supposed he did suppose so. We are now engaged in investigation. 

Mr. CANNON, of Illinois. We have had no necessity for an expert 

up to this time. 

Mr. CONGER. I would like to ask the gentleman from illinois 

[Mr. SPRINGER J a question. 

Mr. SPRINGER. When I have answered the question propounded 

by my colleague I will hear the gentleman from Michi_gan. The rea- son I proposed two experts for the Committee on the Post-Office and 

Post-Roads is this: I was informed by members of the Committee 

that they were about to enter on an investigation which would re- quire such experts, and that unless they were voted by the House 

they would be compelled to abandon the investigation altogether. 

That was the reason the- experts were put in for that committee. And 

I was also assured by the members of the committee that unless the 

experts were needed they would not be employed, and that they would 

be in employ only for such time as their services were needed. I will now hear the gentleman from Michigan. 

Mr. CONGER. I desire to ask the gentleman whether the Committee on Expenditures in the Department of Justice have in any manner intimated their desire for an expert or an additional clerk f 

If that be so, I desire to say I believe I have attended every meeting 

of the committee and I have never heard it intimated that we had even work enough for the present clerk. So far as re~ards the neces- sity for an ex-pe1·t or an a-dditional clerk, all the busmess which has come before that committee, so far as I am aware, has not required 

the services of an additional clerk, and I never heard an intimation 

that a.n additional clerk was needed. 
1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1563 

Mr. SPRINGER. The gentleman from Michigan is very kind not 

only to ask me a question but to answer it himself . .Mr. CONGER. I asked the question, being a. member of that com-

:nllttee. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I will state that the chairman of that committee, 

who I am sorry is not now in his seat, has informed me that he desired to enter into investigations as to the Department of Justice and 

would need an expert for that purpose. . Mr. CONGER. W~ll, then, the chairman knows about business 

coming before the committee which he has never communicated to 

the committee. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I will state further I have myself received a letter which I have handed to the chairman of the committee, which 

gives information in regard to a very important matter which should 

be investigated by that com:nllttee. 

Mr. EDEN. I can answer the question of the gentleman from 

Michigan, as I am on the com:nllt~ee to which he refers; the chairman 

of the committee not being present. I do not understand the substitute offered by my colleague [Mr. SPRINGER] proposes any expert 

for the Committee on Expenditures in the Department of Justice. I 

understand that it simply ptoposes a clerk, and I suppose my friend 

from Michigan will not object to the committee having a clerk. 

Mr. CONGER. We have a clerk now and I for one have never had 

occasion to find fault with him. 

Mr. EDEN. Nor I; but this makes provision that he shall be paid. 

Mr. CONGER. There is provision already that he shall be paid. 

No additional legislation is needed for that purpose. 

Mr. EDEN. My colleague on the committee is evidently mistaken. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I am informed there is no provision for the payment of that clerk. Under this resolution the committee can determine for itself whether it needs a clerk or an expert; and it must fix 

the time durin~ which that oler:k shall be paid. And when the gentleman from Mwhigan meets his committee and the question is there 

raised, he can then make his statement to the committee that they 

do not need a clerk, or limit the time during which his services shall 

be required. 

Mr. HAYES. I would like to ask my colleague a question. 

The SPEAKER. Does the gentleman from Illinois yield further! 

Mr. SPRINGER. I will yield to hear the question of my colleague. 

Mr. HAYES. I am very anxious to vote intelligently on the various 

motions before the House; and if the gentleman will explain to me and the Honse what he means by an expert; in other words, what are the duties of an expert, I shall be enabled, and I think other gentlemen on this floor will be enabled to vote much more intelligently 

than we can unless the gentleman does explain that. I would like 

to know the difference between a clerk and an expert and the duties 

of an expert. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I understand that there are several copies of 

Webster's dictionary in the library on the floor and also some copies 

in the library above, and the gentleman can consult those authorities as to the meaning of the words "expert" and "clerk," at his leisure; 

I have no time now to discuss that question. 

Mr. HAYES. I want the democratic meaning of" expert." [Cries 

of "Order!"] 

lfr. SPRINGER. The democratic meaning of the word" expert" does 

not differ from that laid down by Webster and other approved authorities on the subject. If my colleague tlllnks that the experts provided by the pending resolution are not going to examine the accounts 

of officials of the Government which we are charged by the rules and 

resolutions of the House to do, then he is mistaken with regard to 

the intention of the majority of this Hou e. I will now yield a portion of the time allowed me for the purpose of 

enabling the chairmen of the respective committees named, to explain 

the necessity for clerks or ''experts," in prosecuting their respective 

iuties, and I will first yield to the gentlemen from Kentucky, [Mr. 

BLACKBURN.] 

Jrir. BLACKBURN. How much time does the gentlemen yield meT 

Mr. SPRINGER. How much time does the gentleman <lesire T 

lir. BLACKBURN. As little or as much as you please. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I will yield to the gentleman for three minutes. 

Mr. BLACKBURN. In the three minutes' tjme yielded me by my 

friend from Illinois, there certainly will not be found room for hal£ a 

aozen speeches and I therefore hope that nobo<ly will ask to interrupt me. I simply desire to make this statement, speaking for one of the 

committee of investigation of which I chance to be chairman, that 

it is a matter of indifference to me to what power the appointment 

ef these experts or clerks shall be delegated. 

Nearly five months of this session have gone by and this committee has done no work and can do none. I speak now by the authority of every member of that committee, without regard to politics. 

This need not be made a partisan question; politics find no proper 

place in this discussion. 

The Secretary of War, with the expenditures of whose Department 

the committee of which I am chairman has charge, has indicated to 

me his desire to have certain abuses corrected, and certain reforms 

made in the different branchelil of that service. The manua.llabor 

imposed on that conimittee is such that no member is able to find 

time from his other engagements to attend to its discharge. The 

committee is not provided either with an expert or a clerk, and I waa instructed by the committee to make every effort in my power to 

secure a clerk, and failing in those efforts to report to the House the 

absolute impossibility of its discharging its «nties. 

If it is the purpose of the House to have no work done by these 

committees charged with investigations, then I think it would be far 

manlier and more just to the members of the committees to discontinue those committees n.nd not maintain this farce. 

Without a clerk the work cannot be done and will not be attempted, 

and it is for the House to determine whether, in some shape, a clerk or an expert sha.ll be allowed. My committee has never aske.d for an expert, nor does that committee ask for one now; but it dem:mds a clerk, without which its work cannot be done. Let the clerk be furnished or let the House assume the responsibility for practically 

abolishing this committee. 

Speaking for my own committee, I do not know that an expert will 

be needed; but I do know that a clerk is needed in order to enable us to ascertain whether the services of an expert will be required. I 

do not think that the House need be afraid to trust that committee 

with the appointment of a clerk. I do not think the House :need 

apprehend that his services will be retained any longer than he is 

needed. If jt be found that the services of a clerk are needed but for one month, I take it that he will be discontinued at the end of the 

month. But if the best interests of the country require him te be re- tained throughout the session of Congress, I take it that it is t.he purpose of every man in the Honse to approve such retention. 

I indorse the substitute offered by the gentleman from Dlinois [Mr. 

SPRINGER] because I see no good rea-son why a distinction should be 

made between these committees and the other committees of the 

House. I see no good reason why one of the committees should be 

denied the privilege of selecting its own clerk while that privilege is 

accorded to every other com:nllttee having a clerk. 

For myself I think it right and proper that we should have a corps 

of experts. They have been needed at every session of Congress during which investigations havo been conducted. If they are needed now they ought to be ready for assignment. It is a matter of indifference to me who shall select them; but I can understand why each 

committee should desire to select its own clerk, in oruer to have a. man in whom they have confidence and with whom they can work 

upon terms of perfect reliance. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I now yield to the gentleman from Ohio [Mr. 

FI1\"LEY] for one minute. 

Mr. FINLEY. I can say but a few words in one minute. I desire 

to say that ihe Committee on Public Expenditures has been charged 

'{ith the investigation of the Public Printing Office, reaching back as far as 1869. There has been expende<l in that department on an aver- age about $1,700,000 annually. That is spread over the books which are kept in such a manner that it is impossible for the committee t() 

examine and understand the books without the aid of an expert. 

What the committee wants is simply the assistance of an accountant or book-keeper to enable them to inquir~ into and examine the ac- c!ounts of the Public Printer. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I now yield for two minutes to the gentleman 

from Mississippi, [!IIr. MOlo."EY,] a member of the Committee on the 

Post-Office and Post-Roads. 

Mr. MONEY. I desire to say on behalf of the majority of t:Be Committee on the Post-Office and Post-Roads that while we feel under obligation by order of the House to enter upon an investigation of the 

conduct and affairs of the Post-Office Department, it is impossibl«> 

for us to do any effective work in that direction without the assist- ance of an expert. This fact is realized by every member of that 

committee who honestly and sincerely desires to investigate that 

Department. 

It is a matter of indifterence to the committee what the result of 

that inve~:~tigation may be. If the gentlemen charged with the con- duct of that Department shall be found faithful and efficient in the 

discharge of the duties of their respective offices, I am sure that the 

majority of that committee will be rejoicetl to have their vindication 

established by the investigation. But if there is violation of law in 

that Department ; if there is any failure to discharge properly and 

correctly the duties of their respective offices, we desire to have that 

fact made known. 

We know that it is impossible to do any effective work in that re- spect without an expert. There is not a member of that committeeof either politics who does not know that to be the fact, that it is impossible to go into an investigation of the affairs of that Department 

and of its bureaus and to accomplish any effective result without an expert to aid us. From documentary information which I have in 

my possession I am satisfied, as an individual member of that c.om- mittee, that if we havo the proper assistance we can secure results 

which will fully justify the investigation. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I will yield the balance of my time to tho gentleman from Pennsylvania, [Mr. MACKEY,] the chairman of the Committee on Revolutionary Pensions. 

Mr. MACKEY. How much time is that 7 

The SPEAKER. It is one minute. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I think at least five minutes of my time has been 

consumed by interruptions. 

The SPEAKER. Most of the interruptions have been by the con- sent of the gentleman. · Mr. MACKEY. I desire to say but a few words in reference to the 

amendment which I have offered. I was instructed by the Committee 
1564 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. MARCH 7, 

on Revolutionary Pensions to offer that amendment. Th~y are unan- imously of the opinion that we should have a clerk. VJe ~re now without one. We have bad one hundred and twenty-six b1lls and 

petitions referred to our committee, of which about twenty only have 

been disposed of. It is utterly impossible for the committee to discharge the duties assigned to it by this House without some clerical 

assistance. That committee is one of the oldest upon the records of 

the House, and has bad a clerk assigned to it until now. If the mem- bers of the House who are interested in the pension bills referred to 

that committee expect us to discharge fully and properly our duties, 

they should allow us some clerical services. 

Mr. McMAHON. I now yield one minute of my time to the gentle- man from North Carolina, [Mr. STEELE.] 

Mr. STEELE. One minute is a very shod time. What I have to -say is that I concur in everything which bas been said by the gentle- man from Pennsylvania, [Mr. MACKEY.] Every member of that com- mittee knows that at present it is impossible for the committee to act 

with anythin~ like reason and propriety unless we can ba ve the means of obtalning mformation from the Departments with which we ha\e 

to do. 

I will state in very great candor that I know of no committee on this :floor that really needs the service of a clerk more than the Committee on Revolutionary Pensions. This I say with very great re- -spect to my venerable friend from New York [Mr. PATTERSON] and 

to the other venerable gentlemen of that committee. I hope that 

the amendment offered by the gentleman from Penn~ylvania [Mr. 

MACKEY] will be agreed to by the House. 

Mr. McMAHON. I have yielded now twenty-one minutes of my 

time. I will yield twenty minutes to the gentleman from New Hamp- -shire [Mr. BLAIR] my colleague on the Committee of Acc?unts. 

Mr. BLAIR. Mr. Spe11ker, as a member of the Committee of Accounts I wish simply to state the motives which influenceu the action 

·of that committee-- . Mr. CONGER. Will the gentleman allow me one question before 

he goes on T I underst'lnd that the time allotted to this debate was to be divided between the friends and opponents of this measure, 

and I would inquire whE;ther it is intended to givo those who are opposed to t-he proposition any part of the hour T 

Mr. SPRINGER. The gentleman from Ohio [Mr. McMAHo~] who 

has the control of the floor has just stepped ont. 

Mr. CONGER. The gentleman from New Hampshire by the form 

of his remarks shows that he agrees with the committee, so that 

forty minutes of the hour have already been assigned to friends of the 

proposition. 

Mr. SPRINGER. There will be twenty minutes more, and I am sure the gentleman from Ohio will do full justice to the other side. Mr. CONGER. I understood the gentleman to say that the time 

should be divided equally. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I have no doubt it will be. 

Mr. BLAIR. I bad proposed to occupy fi\e minutes myself; but I 

think I can say all I wish to say in one minute, and I will yield four 

minutes to the gentleman from Michigan, [Mr. CoNGER.] The House 

having by formal action determined that these committees should be 

authorized to make these investigations, and the chairmen of the sev- eral committees, and in many cases the members of the committees, 

having called upon the Committee of Accounts and insisteu that it was impossible for them to carry out tho directions of the Honse without the assistance of experts anu clerks, we did not feel at liberty to 

thwart the action of the House by refusing to afforu in some form the 

necessary assistance. Hence we devised this resolution, having, I 

may properly say, some fear that unless a well-guar(~eu resolution were reported from the committee an insufficient degree of responsibility and perhaps a want of caution might be exercised iu the selec- tion of these employes. 'Therefore, we propo e to place the responsioility upon the Committee on Rules. Olrr first proposition was to put 

it upon the Speaker, but he declined it on account of pressure of busi- ness. We provide, also, that each expert is to be paid only for such 

time as he may necessarily be employed. In this report we were unanimous; and by it I am willing to stand. I do not approve the 

substitute of tha gentleman from Illinois [Mr. SPRINGER] and propose 

to oppose it. 1 yield four minutes to the gentleman from Michigan, 

[Mr. CONGER.] 

Mr. CONGER. It is within the recollection of every old member 

of Congress th:Jt when the republicans had control of thi.s House 

many days were spent by the democracy in denouncing the unneces- -sary employment of clerks on committees; innumerable speeches 

were made urging that too many c1erks were employed and that there 

was no necessity for them. When the democrats took possession of 

this House they asserted to the country in their preliminary organi- zation of committees and in their earlier appointments of clerks that 

in respect to the number of clerks, as well as many other expenditures, they could. justly appeal to the country to recognize their 

-economy. Now it is notorious that in the last Congress a. largely increased 

number of clerks and all other kinds of employes were authorized in 

this Honse by accretion from month to month, by the appointment 

-of persons under different names all(l for different purpo es, until the 

aggregate swelled beyond everything that bad been before known. 

This House did not pretend to he so economical; but they did report, 

through the appropriate committee, what clerks were necessary for 

the various committees, and that report was adopted. There was, at 

the time, an effort mad«> to authorize additional clerks for these very 

committees, but it was defeated on both sides of the House. From that 

time to this there have been several additions of clerks, and when 

they are needed no man on this side of the House will object to 

their appointment. But now nine experts are demanded. The demo0-

racy have caucused upon this question, a.s I have been informed, and 

have agreed to stand together, not for clerks but for experts. Whether 

they are to be experts in any business connected with the action of 

Congress is not stated, and when the question is asked of the gentle- man from Illinois, [Mr. SPRINGER,] than whom no man perhaps could 

better answer, he says that he will not study dictionary for thi~:~ House. 

He throws himself back upon the dignity of his superior know ledge, 

his dictionary learning, and refuses to tell this House what experts are necessary and, if experts are necessary, in what branch of busi- ness. Are they to be medical experts Y Are they to be accountant 

experts' Why hesitate to define what they are to be, unless gentle- men fear that if such definition be made these appointees may not 

have the full sweep of the word ''expert" to cover the scope of their 

ahlli~' • Now, I do not oppose, and I never have opposed for myself or for my 

friends here, the appointment of any number of officers or clerks or experts necessary to facilitate the business of Congress; but I do 

denounce the attempt to show to the world the economy and retrenchment of the democratic party in cutting clown clerks in every Department of the Government where they are needed-in the Surgeon-General's Office and in the Pension Bureau, for instance, so that hundreds 

of thousands of poor, maimed, decrepit, starving soldiers must wait a year or two years perhaps for their pension applications to be beard, 

this Con~ress leaving them to languish and perhaps die for lack of 

the appomtment of a few clerks-while iu this Honse they insist on appointing day after day, (unnecessarily as I believe,) under all kinds 

of names and pretenses, extra clerks and extra experts, when nobody 

bas pretended that they are needed for the business of the House. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. CONGER. I wish I had a few minutes more; but I suppose 

that on this side we are to be limited to three or four minutes apiece. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Michigan [Mr. CoNGER] bas 

occupied five minutes. 

Mr. CONGER. That was through the courtesy of the Chair, not of 

the gentlemen controlling this resolution. [Laughter.] 

Mr. BLAIR. I yield five minutes to the gentleman from Minnesota, 

[Mr. DUNNELL.] 

Mr. HEWITT, of Alabama. I would like to ask the gentleman from 

Michigan one question before he sits down. 

Mr. DUNNELL. Not out of my time. 

Mr. HEWITT, of Alabama. I understood the gentleman from 

Michigan to complain of cutting down clerks in ihe Pension Bureau. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Michigan has not the floor 

any longer to answer the gentleman's question. 

Mr. CONGER. I would be courteous enough to take it in order to answer the gentleman's question. [Laughter.] . Mr. HEWITT, of Alabama. I only wish to state that the Commissioner of Pensions has said he had all the clerks be needs now. .l\lr. DUNNELL. l\Ir. Speaker, I do not imagine there is any mem- ber upon this side of the House who is unwilling any one of these 

committees shall be furnished with the clerical force necessary to en- able it to perform whatever it may be called upon to do whether in 

the way of the ordinary duties of legislation or the extraordinary one of investigation. I am myself opposed to this legislation because it 

proposes something wholly and entirely new in the history of this 

House. I say very respectfully to the gentleman from Kentucky 

[Mr. BLACKBURN] that. never before have we by resolution appointed 

experts. The last House claimed for itself, Mr. Speaker, a great deal 

of fame because of its success in investigation. I am aware that H 

very nearly investigated itself out of existence. I am aware it in 

vestigated so much that the democratic majority went down froru 

sixty-five to thirteen or fourteen. Probably if they had had experts 

in the last House the democratic side of the House would have blotted 

itself out entirely. [Laughter.] 

Let us look at this thing practically. The Committee on Accounts 

know very well there are men about this House, disappointed meu. who have been turned out of the different Departments and are here 

asking for places. They came here when this House was organized. They had been turned out of the State Department, the Post-Offico 

Department, the War, and other Departments. They came to the 

democratic side of the House and said," We know this aud we know 

that; give us au appointment; make us experts and we will open up 

some,channcl where something rich will be discovered." The gentle- men of the Committee of Accounts have been overcome, weirTbed 

down all this session of Congress, by this very class of men, and the 

Doorkeeper of this House is to-day under a cloud because of these 

very men whom it is proposed to take care of by this resolution. 

Mr. Speaker, the Committee on Expenditures in the State Department is one of tl1e committees provided for in the resolution of the 

gentleman from Illinois. There has never been for a moment auy 

discussion in that commit tee in reference to the necessity for any such 

clerk or expert. That committee bas a clerk and I understand all 

the committees have a clerk-not a separate clerk, but the services 

of a clerk. The Committee on Expenditures in the State Department 
1878. CONGRES,SIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 

has a clerk jointly with the Committee on Education and Labor. 

He is a competent gentleman; be does all we want him to do. There 

is nothing an extra clerk could be put to. 

One . other point I wish to make is this: this proposition allows 

the Committee of Accounts to fix the compensation of these experts. 

The compensation may date hack to the beginning of this Congress. 

There is nothing to limit the Committee of Accounts. They may 

make the compensation "'3,000 a year. They may make it two hundred or three hundred dollars a month. It is not a usual thing in this House 

to allow the Committee of Accounts to :fix the compensation of any 

of its clerks. I am surprised, therefore, that the gentleman from 

illinois [Mr. EDE...~] who seems to have taken up the mantle of the 

gentleman from Indiana [Mr. HoLMAN] who was the great economist 

in the last House, has not entered a protest against this extravagant 

proposition to pay out :fifteen or twenty thousand dollars a year for 

these unnecessary .clerks. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. BLAIR. I now yield for :five minutes to the gentleman from 

Illinois. 

Mr. CANNON, of Illinois. Mr. Speaker, if these experts are in 

fact necessary then we ought to have them, but just so far as they are unnecessary and are to·furnish a pretext for gentlemen to fasten 

indigent constituents upon the pay-rolls of the House I am opposed 

to them. The substitute offered by my colleague [Mr. SPRINGER] 

gives two experts to the Committee on the Post-Office and PostRoads. That committee already bas a clerk. It never has asked for 

the e experts, nor bas it ever been suggested in committee or even hinted at, that any expert was necessary to assist in any investig~ 

tion now or to come before it ; and I here state that no expert is 

necessary for that committee, nor is it necessary in the slightest 

degree to have another clerk for it. Wby, sir, all the disbursements 

of the Post-Office Department are made by the Sixth Auditor of the 

Treasury Department, and come under the jurisdiction of the Committee on Expenditures in the Treasury Department. There are no other accounts to examine. But tl1is is not aU; the substitute of 

my colleague from Illinois provides an expert for the Committee on Expenditures in the Post-Office Department. I am informed by a member of the committee that it has never held a meeting, although 

nearly five months have elapsed since its appointment, so it never could have determined that it was necessary to have an expert to 

aesist in investigation, and certainly there is no necessity for it to 

ha>e a clerk. 

During the last Congress this committee bad a clerk and examined 

witnesses by the month summoned from all parts of the country, and never even made a report to the House touching its investigation. 

Mr. Speaker, since I have been a member of this House the PostOffice Dei_Jartment bas been under a continual fret of investigation, 

commencing in 1874, at which time yon, Mr. Speaker, and the gentlem:m now at the head of Appropria1ions, [Mr. ATKINS,] were mem- bers of the Committee on the Post-Office and Post-Roads, and in the 

report yourself and the gentleman from Tennessee l!uited with the 

balance of the committee as to the facts reported to the House. This was the third investigation. During the last Congress the committee, 

largely neglecting the public business, for five months investigated 

the Post-Office Department, bringing witnesses from all over the 

country at great expense. We made a book of over one thousand 

closely printed pages, and I will give a premium of 100 a head for 

every man that can be found who has ever read it or even opf'ned the 

lids of the book. Now, without any request from the committee, two 

experts are to be furnished, and the thrice-traveled ground is again 

to be gone over. I ask, who is to be benefited, whose indigent con- ~Stituents are to be :pensioned on the contingent fund of the House? 

I am driven to the conclusion that it has been determined by a democratic caucus at the instance of a few men, that these experts are to 

be furnished that the committee h<ts no use for, and I am not. willing 

that it should be done without notice to the House and protest from 

myself. 

Mr. MONEY. Will the gentleman yield to me for a question' 

Mr. WADDELL. I would like to say in reply to my colleague on the committee--

:Mr. CANNON, of illinois. I yield to the gentleman for a question only. . Mr. WAD DELL. I wish to answer the gentleman's question. 

Mr. CANNON of Illinois. I did not ask the gentleman a question. 

I yielded to him for a question only. 

Mr. WAD DELL. I wished to answer the question which the gen- tleman put to the majority of the committee. 

The SPEAKER. The time of the gentleman from Illinois has ex- pired. 

Mr. BLAIR. I yield three minutes to the gentleman from Maine, 

[Mr. HALE.) 

Mr. HALE. The bill reported by the Committee of Accounts to 

my mind is a good deal better than the substitute of the gentleman from illinois; but the trouble with the whole is that it goes on a misconception of the needs of this case. The resolution ought to be .termed "A resolution for the relief of certain gentlemen in the democratic party who want employment." 

My friends on the other side of the House are confronted by the 

fact that they have not got offices enough for the applicants; and it 

is the easiest thing for gentlemen in charge of committees to conjure 

up great needs of more force and more service. 

This thing was illustrated in the last Congress, not in a wholesale 

way by a demand for experts for a dozen co,mmittees, but by the giving of an expert to the Committee on Printing ; and I am told that 

the history of that important and much-needed expert was this: 

the Committee on Printing bad special duties; it bad special exam- inations and investigations to make. It w:mted an expert. The· House gave it; and the chairman and the committee, in casting about 

for an expert who should be skilled in investigating into the mysteries of the Printing Office, at last unaccountably and by some stroke· of genius yet unexplained settled upon a gentleman in a distant 

State, who was a clerk in a flouring-mill, and brought him here as an expert to look into the business with which the House had intrusted 

the Committee on Printing, and to shed the light of his knowledge 

upon the committee in that matter. 

Mr. SOUTHARD. Will the gentleman yield to me for a question 't 

Mr. HALE. Yes, sir. 

lli. SOUTHARD. I will ask the gentleman from Maine if thn.t 

expert from Ohio did not find such a state of affairs that it was nec- essai·y to legislate the Public Printer out of office 7 

]tlr. HALE. I do not know as to that; but be probably developed a remarkable faculty for investigating matters of printing comingfrom his flouripg-mill. I learn in addition that he had a quality 

which perhaps led to his being selected as an expert over and above 

his acquaintance with the flouring businees: that of being a brotherin-law of a member of the committee. 

Mr. McMAHON. It may have been better that he came from a flouring-mill than from a whitewashing-mill. 

Mr. SINGLETON. I would like to know to whom the gentleman 

from Maine alludes. 

The SPEAKER. The time of the gentleman from Maine bas ex- pired. 

Mr. BLAIR. I yield the rest of my time to the gentleman from 

Ohio, [Mr. FOSTER.] 

Mr. SINGLETON. I ask the gentleman from Ohio to yield to me for one moment. 

Mr. FOSTER. I cannot yield. 

This is a proposition, as bas bee-n stated, to find :places for nine per- sons. I have been expecting, Mr. Speaker, to hear the clarion voicG 

of the gentleman from illinois against this proposition ; I refer to the 

chairman of the Committee of Claims, [Mr. EDEN,] who stands here as a sort of bulwark against attacks on the Treasury. And where are my friends on the Committee on Appropriations Y Why, .Mr. 

Speaker, it is known to the Committee on Appropriations that the 

Clerk of the House is now asking us for an appropriation of $30,000 

for deficiencies in the contingent fund of the House. And here is a proposition to employ nine experts. And for what! I s&,:, and l 

believe I can prove, that it is for nine experts, loafers lying around 

this Capitol. They are experts in bar-rooms and treating-places; 

such experts as you find mentioned in the report of the Clerk, and I 

ask the particular attention to this report of my friend from Ohio~ 

[Mr. McMAHON.] I do not care about mentioning the names of the 

dead-beats from Ohio who appear in this re'port, and who drew from 

the last Congress, out of your contingent fund thousands and thousands of dollars. Here is a proposition to increase the number of 

these dead-beats, and that is all there is about it. There is not a Department or bureau of the Government to-day but what is ready and 

willing to furnish any information or aid that any committee desires 

in making investigations. · Mr. EDEN. I will say to my friend from Ohio that I am reserving 

my strength for those eighty-five temporary clerks that he is asking 

for in the Treasury Department. 

Mr. McMAHON. How much time have I leftf 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman has nineteen minutes left. 

Mr. McMAHON. Two years ago the democratic party came intopower with the pledge that it would reform abuses in the Government. The people were satisfiad that there were gross abuses existing from the fact that the expenditures of . the Government bad 

reached an enormous size and that the taxes were unnecessarily high. 

We came here for the purpose of shedding some li~ht upon the ex- penditures of the public money. What light we diet shed and what 

result our investigations had upon the country, I appeal to the pres- ent condition of the House to prove. The democratic majority has 

been maintained. In spite of all the gerrymandering in Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois we have a comfortable democratic majority here 

to-day. 

·Mr. REED. Part of which you made yourselves since we came here. 

Mr. HALE. How does the majority compare with that of the last 

Congress! 

Mr. McMAHON. It is a very respectable majority, composed oi 

respectable gentlemen, so far as my association haa given me experience. 

Mr. BAKER. of Indiana. You have four less than you had in the 

last Congress. · · Mr. McMAHON. The ~entleman hails from a State that gives a regular democratic majonty, and can send here only four democraticcongressmen out of thirteen. So much republican gerrymandering in 

Indiana. . Mr. BAKER, of Indiana. If the gentleman will give me a moment 

I will state the reason. Mr. :McMAHON. I cannot yield. The reason is apparent. We are 

. 
1566 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. MABon 7, 

met to-day with the same hostility to investigations that we met with 

two years ago. Why is this soY 

Mr. BAKER, of Indiima. The gentleman does not want the renson of the result in Indiana. 

1\Ir. McMAHON. I declin"' to be intermpted. 

We :find almost a solid column on the opposite side of the House 

crying out to-day, "Oh, don't vote for six or eight experts; the ex- pense is enormous; the poor people cannot stand it; you democrats are going to break down the people with taxes and force them into 

open rebellion by increasing the expenditures of the Government by 

the employment of eight clerks!" A.nd ye.t my friend from Ohio [Mr. 

FosTER] who spoke last just now, who seems to be an expert in 

''dead-beats" if in nothing else, comes here and talks about the 

expenses of the Government being increased by the employment of 

these few experts, and only yesterday, as I find by the RECORD, he 

offered a little amendment to a deficiency bill to add $28,500 to the 

expenses of the Government, in one Department alone, for the em- ployment of temporary clerks. 

Mr. FOSTER. Because there is actual necessity for it.· 

Mr. McMAHON. I do not believe it. My friend from Maine [Mr. 

HALE] charges that we have so few offices to distribute th~t we are only creating new ones to provide for applicants. This comes with a bad grace from a party that, with one hundred thousand offices at 

its disposal, is still clamoring for so many temporary additional clerks, 

eighty-five in one bill and twenty-nine in another, :til these clerks 

being chiefly wanted to accommodate some republican Member of Congress or Senator who thinks he is not yet fully gorged with his share 

of the public plunder. 

Oh, what insatiate monsters our friends on the other side are, not to 

be satisfied with their share of the public patronage and to have the 

audacity to complain of so slight nn increase to our few hundred, and 

that increase demanded in the interest of the people! 

Mv colleague from Ohio seems to be familiar with all the gentlemen 

who'have recently come into position by fraud. [Laughter.] He is 

very sensitive on the subject of Ohio frauds. 

Mr. FOSTER. I am acquainted wit.h the chairman of the Committee on Military Affairs, who is alleged to have been elected by 

fraud. 

Mr. McMAHON. A.nd he is 'llso acquainted with other distinguished 

gentlemen from Ohio, whom it is not proper forme to name, who have 

been recently inducted into office by fraud; and history assigns him a verv important part in the transaction. He ought to be more careful. ~lr. TOWNSEND, of New York. Has not the morning hour ex- pired Y 

The SPEAKER. The morning hour has expired ; but t.he House is now operating under the previous question. 

Mr. McMAHON. My friend from Ohio [Mr. FosTERl is exceedingly nervous about a few" dead-beats" from the State of Ohio. He men- tions no name~:~; but let him look at the army of "dead-beats" that 

he may have had put into the Departments in order to enable him, as a republican member of Congress, to succeed in carrying a democratic 

district. [Laughter.] I am now talking business ta my friend. [Renewed laughter.] My friend from Michigan [Mr. CONGER] was very 

strenuous in his remar:Ks advocating economy. "Why, sir," said he, 

''these democra.ts a few years ago, when they were in the opposition 

in this House, kept saying to the republican majority,' You .lJ,ave too 

many clerks, you have too many messengers, you have too many pages; 

they were all the time complaining.'" Well, when we came into power 

did we not give proof of the faith that was in us by reducing the force 

about the House f Is not the force a great deal smaller now than it 

wa.sY 

Mr. CONGER. What force is smallerf 

Mr. McMAHON. No matter; do not interrupt me. You did not 

need experts, because you did not want them. You did not want investigation when you bad everything in your control in both Houses 

of Congress, with the President and the Departments. At that time 

proper investigation was not what you desired. If a committee was n.ppointed you were like the Irishman that was going through the 

country lookiug for work and praying to God that he would not find 

it. [Laughter.] If you had any investigation it was merely to whitewash the persons a-siailed. You did not need clerks or experts. All 

you had any usA for waa a big bucket of whitewash, and a nice, soft, 

comfortable brush with which to put it on so that nobody should be 

hurt. [Laughter.] 

Mr. CONGER. Mr. SpeakerMr. McMAHON. I do not yield--

Mr. CONGER. I make a point of order on the gentleman. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman will state it. 

Mr. CONGER. My point is, that the gentleman addresses himself 

to me personally without aduressing the Chair; chn.rges me personally with what he is charging upon Congress. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Ohio [Mr. McMAHON] will 

be kintl enough to address the gentleman from Michigan [Mr. CoNGER] through the Chair. . Mr. McMAHON. If the gentleman supposes that I refer to him as being the particular individual engaged in the whitewash business, 

and that is offensive to him, I will take it back. I was not alluding 

to him specifically. 

Mr. CONGER. It is not offensive, considering the source from 

which it comes. Mr. McMAHON. Now, here we are iu this House with a democratic majority. You have a republican majority in the Senate; at 

least it looks so now. Mr. FOSTER. And the democratic majority here is growing lMger all the time. 

Mr. McMAHON. It is growing sufficiently large to enable ug to 

watch the gentlemen who are so busy using up the public money. Ia 

this not in the interest of the people Y And does not true economy 

call for competent experts to assist in the unearthing of frauds f 

You have the President; you have the control of all of the Departments. We want the assistance of clerks and experts to i!::tvestigate 

your actions. The opinion of our committee was that experts, not 

clerks, are needed. But whether you call them experts or clerks is 

not very material; the result will probably be the same. The gentleman from Illinois [Mr. HAYES] wants to know the mean- ing of experts, or mther to know what is the democratic meaning of 

experts. I would say to him that in the present situation of affairs 

it means a fellow with a keen noseforrepublicanrascality. [Laughter.] I do not mean that in any offensive sense. Mr. CONGER. We supposed it referred to something canine. 

Mr. McMAHON. Ob, no, I am not referring to the ge:atlema.n now. [Great laughter.] I wish the gentleman would not always 

take me up as referring to him. He is not the whole republican 

party. 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Ohio [Mr. McMAHON] desires to proceed without interruption. 

Mr. CONGER. I hope the Chair will permit him to do so. Mr. McMAHON. The gentleman from Michigan is not the whole 

of the republican party; and although he is an important member of th~ House and one whose friendship I prize, he will certainly allow me to make some remarks of a general character without assuming 

that I am charging t:kat he is engaged in the whitewash business or wishes to take care of the fellows who need whitewashing, or, more properly, full investigation and exposure. 

The Committee of Accounts thought that the experts should bo 

appointed for the whole House, and we thtught that if we could impose the duty of selecting them upon a committee that ha.d not much 

else to do-the Committee on Rules, a committee of high character- we would in the face of the whole country impose a responsibility 

upon that committee which would secure for the House men of character and intelligence, who would not be" dead-beats," but whose 

CO{lclusions when reached would be considered as equivalent to proof ann who could not be purchased from prosecuting their inqull.ies to 

the bitter end. 

Now, I would like the country to know whether our friends on tha 

other side propose to put themselves in the attitude of refusing tho 

expenditure of a few dollars a day in investigations, say $i)0 a day 

if there should be ten experts, for a hundred or a hundred and fifty 

days. Will you go to the country refusing that expenditure for the 

purposes for which we ask iU Will you, after the history of the last 

fifteen years, shield yourselves nuder the pretense of economy f If 

you do, the country will not be deluded by any such claim as that. 

The only obstacle heretofore in the way of ecom1my and retrenchment and the bringing of the expenditures down to the lowest point, 

which is very important in the present state of affairs, is and lias been 

the opposition of the heads of the Departments, of the republican 

members of this House in this and the last Congress and of another 

and co-ordinate branch of Congress. If the conv~rsion of our republican friends is sincere the country will welcome it as a great gain. 

But I think it delusive and fraudulent. 

How much time have I left, Mr. Speakert 

The SPEAKER. The gentleman has :five minutes of his time re- maining. 

Mr. McMAHON. I will yield those five minutes to the gentleman 

from Mississippi [Mr. SINGLETON] whose committee baa been attacked. 

Mr. SINGLETON. As the gentleman from Maine [Mr.!Lu.E] has 

made a specific charge against the Committee .on Printing of the last 

Congress and put on record the assertion that a brother-in-law of a member of that committee was employed as an expert by that com- mittee, I call upon him to state to what gentleman of the committee 

he alludes and who was the expert. 

Mr. HALE. I stated, when I was up a few moments ago, that I 

had been told that the story of the expert employed by the Committee on Printing was as I proceeded to narrate it. My information was derived, though not directly by myself, from the gentleman from 

Ohio, [Mr. NEAL,] who claimed to knowthegentleman, and who gave 

the fact as being well authenticated. Since I took my seat the gentleman from Mississippi [Mr. SINGLETON] has been to me nnd has 

stated that as a member of the committee he had reason to believe 

that I was mistaken. I have sought the information, and the gentle- man who knows most about the matter is at present not upon the 

floor. But I will state that what I have found in the course of my 

inouiries does not leadmeinany way to change :my of the statements 

th:it I have made, stating not that I knew them, but that I had been 

told the story; and I now believe it was true that an expert was brought from Ohio under the circumstances I have mentioned . Mr. SINGLETON. Will you state the name of the member of the 

committee who brought the expert and the name of the expert f 

Mr. HALE. I stated (or, if I did not, I intended to) that it was the 

chairman of the committee who, as I was informed, brought on his 

brother-in-law as an expert. 

Mr. McMAHON. That is a mistake. 
1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1567 

Mr. SINGLETON. I call upon the gentleman from Maine for the 

name of the expert. Mr. HALE. Let me say that as soon as the gentleman who knows ~u o.bout this shall return to the House the gentleman from Missistiippi shall have the full information; the name and all that. 

Mr. SINGLETON. Well, sir, I think I know about us much on this 

anbject as perhaps any gentleman who can give information in relation to it. I will state that Mr. Vance, of Ohio, who was chairman 

1>f the Committee on Printing in the last Congress, did employ as a -clerk to that committee Mr. Wiener, who perhaps was then or had 

been a citizen of Ohio; but he was not a brother-in-law; not con· nocted, as I understand, with Mr. Vance in any way whatever. 

Mr. HALE. Not n. relative Y 

Mr. SINGLETON. Not at all. 

Now I wish to say further, in justification of that committee and of 

Mr. Vance, who is not here to speak for himself, that we had an -expert whose appointment was authorized by this House-a Mr. 

Behle-who was one of the best accountants with whom I ever had 

-any intercourse. I do not know whether he had kept books for a .flouring-mill or where he came from. I only know that, if any gentleman will take the report made by the committee, examine the 

work which was done, and then consider the results which flowed 

from it, it will be found that our labors were not in vain; that many 

.abuses have been corrected and many thousands of dollars saved 

to the Government. 

Mr. HALE. Had that gentleman, when he was taken by the com- mittee as an expert, had any employment that would qualify him 

particularly ae an expert f Does the gentleman know that he was not taken from a flouring-mill7 

Mr. SINGLETON. He had been a book-keeper all his life, as I 

underRtood. 

Mr. HALE. Had he had anything to do with printing f That is 

the point. 

Mr. SINGLETON. Why, sir, he did not need to have anything to 

{lo with printing. 

:Mr. HALE. I supposed the committee had that subject in charge. 

Mr. SINGLETON. Wewanted thebooksandaccountsofthoPrinting Office examined; and the result is before the country in the report 

which was made by the committee. That expert was not a brotberin-la,w of any member of the committee or connected with any mem- ber in any way. So, Mr. Speaker, it turns out that the gentleman has 

found a mare's nest with no eggs in it. [Laughter.] 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

.Mr. McMAHON. I call for the regular order. 

The mam question was then ordered; which was first upon the 

amendment of Mr. MACKEY, to add to the substitute of Mr. SPRINGER 

tho following: 

An<l the Committee on Revolutionary Pensions and the War of 1812 be allowed .a clerk; his compensation and date of service to be :fixed by the Committee of 

Accounts; to be paid out of the contingent fund. 

.Mr. SPRINGER, I am willing to accept that n.mendment as a modification of my substitute if I have the power. 

The SPEAKER. The previous question has been seconded and the 

main question ordered. 

The amendment of Mr. MACKEY was agreed to. 

The question then recurred on agreeing to the substitute of Mr. 

.SPRINGER, as amended; which was read, as follows: 

ReJolved, That the Committee on Public Expenditures and the Committees on ..Expenditures in the State Department, Treasury Department, War Department, 

Navy Department, Post-Office Department, Interior Department, and in the De· 

partment of Jnstice be each authorized to employ a clerk or expert pending investigations by said committeM ; and that the Committees on Expenditures in the Treasury Department and on the Post-Office and Post-Roads be each authorized to employ not exceeding two experts at any one time and for such timo as said com- 1Dittees may be engaged in their respective investigations ; the compensation of 

such clerks and experts shall be fixed by the Committee of Accounts, and shall be 

paid out of the cont\Dgent fund of the House upon proper certification by the 

chairman of the respective committees ; and the Comnuttee on Revolutionary Pensiena and the War of 1812 be allowed a clerk; his compensation and date of service to be fixed by the Committee of Accounts, and to be paid out of the contingent 

fund. 

The question being taken on agreeing to the substitute as amended, 

-there were-ayes 115, noes 99. 

Mr. BLAIR called for the yeas and nays. 

The yeas and nays were ordered. 

The question was taken; and it was decided in the affirmative-

:yeas 133, nays 104, not voting 55 ; a-s follows : 

Aiken, 

Atkills, 

-:Beebe, 

Bell, 

Benedict, 

Bicknell, 

Blackburn, 

Bland, 

:Slias, 

Blount, 

Boone, 

Bouck, 

:Bragg, 

:Bridges, 

:Bright, 

Brogden, 

Buckner, 

YEAS-133. 

Caldwell, John W. Davis, Joseph J. 

Caldwell, W. P. Dibrell, 

Candler, Dickey, Carlisle, Douglas, 

Clark, Alvah A. Durham, 

Clark of Missouri, Eden, 

Clarke of Kentucky, Eickhoff, 

Clymer, Elam, 

Cobb, Ellia, 

Col.lina, Felton, 

Covert, Finley, 

Cox, Samuel S. Forney, 

Cravens, Franklin, 

Crittenden, Fuller, 

Culberson, Gause, 

Cutler, Gibson, 

Davidson, Giddings, 

Glover, 

Goode, 

Gunter, 

Hamilt{)n, 

Hardenbergh, 

Harr~, Henry R. 

Harns, John T. 

Harrison, 

Hartridge, 

~ll, 

Hatcher, 

Henkle, 

Henry, 

Herbert, 

Hewitt, Abram S. 

Hewitt, G. W. 

Hooker, 

House, 

Hunton, 

Ittner, 

Jones, James T. 

Kenna, 

Knapp, 

Landers, 

Ligon, 

Lockwood, 

Mackey, 

Maish, 

Manning, 

May ham, 

McKenzie, 

McMahon, 

Mills 

Men~y, 

Aldrich, 

Bacon, 

Baker, John H. 

Baker, WilliamH. 

Ball on, Banks, 

Bayne, 

BlAir 

Boyd: 

Brewer, 

Briggs, 

Browne, 

Bundy, 

Burchard, 

Burdick, 

Calkins, 

Campbell, 

Cannon, 

Caswell, 

Claflin, 

Clark, Rush 

Conger, 

Cox, Jacob D. 

Crapo, 

Cnm.mings, 

Danford, 

Morgan, 

Morse, 

Muldrow, 

Patterson, T. M. 

Phelps, 

Potter, 

:Pridemore, 

Rea, 

Rea~an, 

Reilly, 

Rice. Americns V. 

Riddle, 

Robbins, 

Robertson, 

Ross, 

Sayler, 

Scales, 

Schleicher, 

Si..nf!leton, 

Slemona, 

Southard, 

Sparks, 

:5pringer, 

Steele, 

Stenger, 

Stephens, 

Swann, 

Throckmorton, 

Townshend, R. W. 

Tucker, 

Turner, 

Turney, 

Vance, 

Waddell, 

NAYS-104. 

Davis, Hor!lce Hungerford, 

Deering, Hunter, 

Denison, James. 

Dunnell, Jones, JolmS. 

Dwight, Joyce, 

Eames, Keightley, 

ElTett, Lapham, Evan~ I. Newton Lathrop, 

Evans, James L. Linds~y, 

Field, McGowan, 

Fort, McKinley, 

Foster, Monroe, 

Freeman, Norcross, 

Frye, Oliver, 

Gartleld, Page, 

Hale, Patterson, G. W. 

Hanna, Peddie, 

Harmer, Phillips, 

Harris, Benj. W. Pollard, 

Haskell, Powers, . Hayes, Price, 

Hendee, Pugh, Hend~rson, Rainey, 

Hiscock, Randolph, 

Hubbell, Reed, 

Humphrey, Rice, William W. 

NOT VOTING-55. 

Acklen, Evins, John H. Leonard, 

Loring. 

Luttrell, 

Lynde, 

Marsh, 

Martin, 

McCook, 

Metcalfe, 

Mitchell, 

Morrison, 

Muller, 

Neal, 

O'Neill, 

Overton, 

Bagley, Ewing, 

Banning, Gardner, 

Bisbee, Garth, 

Brentano, Hart, 

Butler, Hazelton, 

Cabell, Jones, Frank 

Cain, Jorgensen, 

Camp, Keifer, 

Chalmers, Kelley, 

Chittenden, Ketcham, 

Cole, Killinger, 

Cook, Kimmel, 

Ellsworth, Knott, 

Walker, 

Walsh, 

Warner, 

Wbitthorne, 

Wigginton, 

Williams, A. S. 

Williams, JereN. 

Willis, Albert S. 

Willis, Benjamin A. 

Wilson, 

Wood, 

Wright, 

Yeates, 

Young. 

Roberta, 

Robinson, George D. 

Robinson, Milton S. 

Ryan, 

Sampson, 

Sexton, 

Shallenberger, 

Sinnickaon, 

Smalls, 

Smith, A. Herr 

Stewart, 

Stone, John W. 

Strait, 

Thornburgh, 

Tipton, 

Townsend, M. I. 

Van Vorhes, 

Wait, 

Ward, 

Watson, 

Welch, 

White, Michael D. 

Williams, Andrew 

Williams, Richard 

Willits, 

Wren. 

Pound, 

Quinn, 

Sapp, 

Shelley, 

Smith, William E. 

Starin, 

Stone, Joseph C. 

Thompson, 

Townsend, Amos 

Veeder, 

White, Harry 

Williams, C. G. 

Williams, Jam.ea. 

During the vote, 

Mr. ELLIS stated that his colleagues, Mr. ACKLEN and Mr. LEONARD, who were o.bsent by len.ve of the House, were paired on all politieal questions. 

Mr. MULDROW stated that his colleague, Mr. CHALMERS, was paired on all political questions with Mr. COLE, and that Mr. CHAir 

MERS, if present, w6uld vote in the affirmn.tive. 

Mr. EVINS, of South Carolina, stated that he was paired on all 

political questions with :Mr. McCooK, of New York. 

Mr. HISCOCK stated that his colleagues, Mr. CAMP and Mr. QUINN, were paired on all political questions; otherwise, on this question, 

Mr. CAMP would vote "no." He also stated that Mr. STARIN was paired with his other colleague, Mr. VEEDER; otherwise Mr. STARIN 

would vote "no." 

Mr. O'NEILL stated that on all political questions he was paired 

with Mr. KIMMEL, of Maryland, who if present would vote in the 

affirmative, while he himself would vote in the negative. 

Mr. GARDNER stated that he was paired withMr. EwiNG,ofOhio, 

who if present 'would vote in the n.ffirmative, while he would vo~ in 

the negative. 

Mr. TIPTON stated tho.t his colleague, :Mr. MARSH, was paired with 

Mr. CooK, of Georgia, and tho.t Mr .. MARSH, if present, would vote 

in the negative, whilo Mr. CooK would vote in the affirmative. 

Mr. WHITE, of Pennsylvania, stated that he was paired with Mr. BAL~"'ING, of Ohio, who, if present, would vote in the affirmative, 

while he would vote in the negative. · Mr. THOMPSON stated that he was paired with Mr. SHELLEY, of 

Aln.bama, who would vote in favor of the substitute, while he would 

vote against it. 

Mr. McGOWAN stated thn.t Mr. MITCHELL was absent from the 

House on account of sickness. 

Mr. KENNA stated that his colleague Mr. MARTIN, who WM necessarily absent and by leave of the House, was paired on all political 

questions with :Mr. STONE, of Iowa; and thn.t if Mr. MART~ was present be would vote in the affirmative. 

Mr. SMITH, of Georgia, stated that be was paired with Mr. SAPP, 

of Iowa. 

Mr. McKINLEY stated that his colleague, Mr. BAGLEY, was paired on all political questions with Mr. JoNEs, of New Hampshire. 

The vote was then announced as above recorded. 

The resolution, as amended, was then adopted. 
1568 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. MARCH 7, 

:Mr. SPRINGER moved to reconsider the vote by which the resolution was adopted; and also moved that the motion to reconsider be 

laid on the table. 

The latter motion waa agreed to. 

ENROLLED BILLS AND JOINT RESOLUTIONS. 

Mr. KENNA, from the Committee on Enrolled Bills, reported that 

they had examined and found truly enrolled bills and a joint resolution of the following titles; when the Speaker signed the same: An act (H. R. No. 1074) to authorize the construction of a bridge aero s the Missouri River at or near Glasgow, Missouri; 

An act (H. R. No. 1104) for the relief of .Tohn Pulford; 

An act (H. R. No. 2860) changing the times of holding terms of the 

district court for the district of West Virginia; and a Joint resolution (H. R. No. 37) to authorize tho Secretary of War 

to issue certain arms to the Washingtoa Light Infantry of Charleston, South Carolina. 

1\!r. RAINEY, from the Committee on Enrolled Bills, reported that 

they bad examined and found truly enrolled bills and a joint resolution of the following t.it.les: when the Speaker signed the same: An act (H. R. No. 1487) making appropriations for the payment of 

claims reported to Congress under section 2 of the act approved June 

16, 1814, by the Secretary of the Treasury ; 

An act (H. R. No. 3296) for the relief of Captain William L. Foulk; 

and a Joint resolution (H. R. No. 82) providing for issuing arms and am- munition to the Territory of Idaho under the act approved July 3, 

1876. 

SURVEY OF FRENCII BROAD InVER. 

The SPEAKER, by unanimous consent, ]aid before tho Honse a letter from the Secretary of War, transmitting report of Civil Engineer 

S. T. Abert on the survey of French Broad River, North Carolina; 

which wa-s referred to the Committee on Commerce. 

BRIDGING SAGINAW RIVER. 

The SPEAKER also, by unanimous consent, laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of War, tmnsmitting the further report of 

Major Harwood, Corps of Engineers, upon the subject of bridging the 

Saginaw River, at East Saginaw, Michigan; which was referred to 

the Committee on Commerce. 

NATIONAL YELLOWSTOXE PARK. 

The SPEAKER also, by unanimous consent, laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of the Interior, transmitting information 

relative to the national park at the headwaters of the Yellowstone 

River, and recommending further legislation to carry out the act of 

Congre s of March 1, 1872; which was referred to the Committee on Public Lands. 

SALE OF IDi"ITED STATES BONDS. 

The SPEAKER also, by unanimous consent, laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of th~ Treasury, in answer to a resolution as to the sale of United States bonds for outstanding legal-tender 

notes; which was referred to the Committee on Banking and Currency, and ordered to "Qe printed. 

.AR...~ TRANSPORTATION, ETC. 

The SPEAKER also, by unanimous consent, laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of War, transmitting information regarding the cost of transportation, forage, &c., in the Department of 

Texas, district of New Mexico, and the Department of .Arizona; which was referred to the Committee on the Pacific Railroad. 

PUBLIC BUILDIXGS AT MEMPHIS, TE~'NESSEE. 

Mr. YOUNG. I rise to ask unanimous consent to make a co~ection of the Journal, not having been present this morning when the Journal was read. 

There was no objection. 

1\Ir. YOUNG. In reporting yesterday from the Committee on Public Bniluings and Grounds the SenaJJ> bill (S. No. 608) authorizing 

and directing the Secretary of the Treit8ury to cause the custom-bouse 

at Memphis to be constructed of Tennessee marble. I designated the 

bill in the hurry of the moment as a Senate resolutwn, and it is so entered on the Journal. I ask that there be substitntedon the Journal the title of the bill I have indicated instead of the title of the 

Senate joint resolution No. 9. · The 8PEAKER. The correction will be made. 

DEFICIENCY APPROPRIATION BILL. 

!.!r. DURHAM. I move that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union. 

The motion was agreed to. 

The Honse accordingly resolved itself into Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, (Mr. POTIER in the chair,) and resumed the 

consideration of the LHI (H. R. No. 3102) authorizin~ the Secretary of 

the Treasury to employ temporary clerks, and makmg an appropriation for the same; also making appropriations for detecting trespass on public lands, and for bringing into mru:ket public lands in certain 

States, and for other purposes. 

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will read the pending amendment, 

offered by Mr. HANNA. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

In line 4 strike out the word "twenty'' and insert "eighty-five·" and in line 8 

strike out $6,500 and. insert 25,000;" so that it will read: ' 

That tho Secretary of the Treasury be, and he is hereby, authorized to employ not exceeding eighty-five temporary clerks during tho balance of tho present fiscal 

year, at a. rate not exceeding 2 per day each : Provided, That the whole sum to be 

expended for this purpose shall not exceed ~25,000. . 

Mr. BLOUNT. I send to the Clerk's desk a volume of the Congressional GloLe, and desire to have read for tho benefit of the gentlern:m from Indiana and others tho paragraph I have marked. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

Sir, retrenchment· and reform are now matters of imperati •o noces ity. It is not the mere cry of demagogues, but a problem demanding tho attention and worthy 

the highest ability of tbe lleprcsentati>es of tho proplo. Ko party is fit to govern this ootmtry which cannot sol>e it. It is in >ain to look to cxecuti>e officers for reorm. Their P.ower and influence depen~ up~n ext>cnti•e patronage, and while w j!rant they will ~>qnander. The Senate 1s, ne1ther br the theory of our system nor by its compo ition, fitted for the task. This llousa illone has the constitutional 

power to perfect a radical reform. The Constitution provides that no money shall 

be drnwn from the Treasury but in consequence of appropriations maue by law 

and that all bills for raising rc>enuo shall originate in tho Hou. o of lleprcsenta: 

ti>es. These provisions were designed to in>c. tin tllia Honse tbe entire control over tho public purse-the power of supply. Tbis is invested in the House of 

Commons, and bas been .jealously gnardetliJy it. lt is the pearl be:vontl price with- out which constitutional liberty in England wonlu long since have fallen under 

the despotism of the crown. By the exercise of this power we may hold tho Execnti>e and the Senate in 

check. But instead of using it this Honse llas, by slow de~rees, allowed the other 

Departments of tbe Government to evade a11d virtually overthrow its constitutional 

power. This change may be briefly illustrated. The theory of our Government is 

that a specific sum shall be appropriated by a law ori~Puating in tbis HQuse for a. specific purpose and within a. given fiscal year. It is tno duty of tbo Executi•e to use that sum and no moro, expressly for that purpose and no ot.ber, and within the 

time fixed. 

Mr. HANNA. Who is the author of what the gentleman from 

Georgia has just readY 

Ur. BLOUNT. I will state it. The paragraph I have had read is 

taken from the debates of the House of May 27, 1858, and is the language of Mr. Sherman, the present Secretary of the Treasury, an•l in 

which he enunciates the doctrine that the Departments arc not to bo 

relied upon for the purpose of reducing expenditure; that their very 

existence depends upon their patronage and that this colors tlJeir 

statement.s; in which also he asserts that the only hope for reducing 

the expenditures of this Government lies in the popular branch; nntl 

in which he complains thn.t notwithstanding the reduction of appro- priations t~e several Departments of this Government have gono on recklessly without regard to creating deficiencies. 

This, sir, is absolutely true at the present day. I ask the attention 

of the committee for a moment to the amount of money which has 

been appropriated for several years to this very purpose of temporary 

clerks; and I will remark before commencing to give the figures that 

it has been the policy of the Government to assign permanent clerks 

for the regular work and to allow only very few temporary clerks for 

the purpose of enabling the Departments to make communications 

to this House when asked for. 

In 1~6 about $10,000 was appropriated for this purpose; in 1861, 

$50,650; in 1863, $25,000 and $103,000. That was dming the war. In 

1866 the amount ran up to %0,000. In 1868 they began to return to 

the policy of peace, and $50,000 were appropriated. In 18i0 8:>,000 were again appropriated; and they expended "'15 ,603.60. In 1871 

40,000 were appropriated and 47,000 were expended. In 1872 40,000 

were appropriated and $40,000 expended. In 1873 40,000 were appropriated and $36,966 were expended. In 1874 40,000 were appropriated and S39,:J33 expended. In 1875 $60,000 were appropriated, but 

$37,249 only were expended. In 1 76, for all the Departments, the sum of $60,000 was appropriated. In 1818-and I ask the attention 

of the House, for this is tho V3ry year in which we are-this House, 

this niggardly Honse1 as gentlemen see fit to term it, appropriated a sum of $40,000. 

1\!r. CLYMER obtained the floor and yielded his time to the gentle- man from Georgia, [Mr. BLOID.'T.] 

1\!r. BLOUNT. Later in November the Secretary of the Trerumry came forward asking an additional $18,000, and we appropriated 

658,000 ; more than had been expende<! for years, and yet to-day some of his friends here are asking for an appropriation of a sum amounting to $85,000 for temporary clerks; more than has been allowed or expended for the last six or seven years. 

Now, sir, is this House prepared to do this f Are we prepared to 

depart from this policy which obtained before the war, and which even the republican party 1·esorted toY What is t.he reason for this 

additional number of temporary clerks f Let us look for a moment. 

It is asked that we appropriate from the fnncls of th6 Bureau of 

Printing and Engraving the sum of. $35,000, and it is alleged that 

there has been a great saving in this Bureau of Printing and Engraving. I quote from the report of the Bureau of Engraving and Printing made by the committee of investigation appointed by the Secretary of the Treasury : TREASURY DEPARTME~T, 

Washington, .D. 0., May 2~, 1811. 

Sm: By your letter of instructions of the 20th of March last~ tho undersigned were directed to make an examination of tho Bureau of Engraving and Printing with reference to the efficiency of tho serrice therein, the numb~r, charact.er, and: 

compensation of its employes. and tho comparative co t of work done in the bureau 

and in priTate establishments, as well as to inquire into :my matter affecting ita 

management and any means of promoting its economy and etliciellOy. (Appendix A.) 
1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1569 

Various communications bearing upon these subjects have been, from time to time, referred by the Secretary to us for investigation, and the scope of onr inquiries has also been somewhat enlarged by oral illStrnctions. Havmg made the 

requisite examination with all possible dillgence and thoroughness, we have now the honor to submit onr report. 

Personnel and Appo-intments. 

We began our in vestij!ations on the 21st of March, by the oral examination of the 

officers of the bureau, but before proceeding far it became apparent that there was a great excess of force employed. Upon reporting this fact to th~ Secretary we were directed to submit a. list of persons whose services could be dispensed with, 

basing our recommendations solely upon the relative efficiency of the various em- ployes. In the performance of this duty we required the sevecil chiefs of divisions, m ouT presence and under our instructions, to rate the efficiency of their employes on a scale of 10, having reg:1rd to their capacity, industry, moral cbaracterJ and 

babit'l. Havin_g ascertained from the statements of the officers of the bureau the 

ilaily amount or work to l.Je done in a given division, and the capacit.y of an efficient 

employe therein, we thus determined the number of persons rcqmred in such division. Proceeding in this manner we found that the services of 237 persons, with an annual compensation of et36,000, could be dispensed with without impairing the 

efficiency of the bureau or chan¢ng the then existinJr methods of doing business. 

The perlilons to be dismissed were then selected, taking in each case for this purpose those marked lowest for efficiency and retaining those marked highest. In 

this reduction, except in the case of a few women who were widows of soldiers, no attention whatever was paid to other consid.rations than efficiency. In no case, either in this or subsequent reductions, was the political or other influence of the 

employeM considered or even ascertained by the committee. The list of persons 

selected for dismissal was submitted with our letter of the 30th of .March, and the 

tlischarge of 173 of them took pla{)e on the 18th of .April, the names of 64 ha:oing been struck from the list in the Se~etary's office. 

Having found wide disparities in the pay of persons performing similar duties, we submitted a plan, on the 5th of April, for the readjustment of the pay of the 

employes on an equitable basis1 which was at once approved by the Secretarv. 

At the time the above reduction was recommended the bureau was still prl.nting the one and two doUar legal-tender notes, which constituted t'Mre than one-half of its 

entire work. The Secretary1 having ascertained that there was on hand, on the 1st 

of April, in the Treasurers office and in the bureau, a supply of notes of these 

denominations amounting to about $19,000,000, and sufficient to meet the public demands for many months to come, directed that work on them should be discontinued, and instructed the committee to make a reduction of the force commensu- rate with the decrease in work. We were, however, directed to make no chan"'e at that time in the organization of tho bureau or in the system pursued. .. As the reduction of work would first affect the plate-prrnters, we at once pre- pared a list of 56 printers and 47 press-girls for discharge. In all cases of equal 

competency we aimed to retain those who had served in the Union Army in the 

late war, or had lost relatives therein on whom they depended for support, and 

those on whom the .,.reater number of persons were thns dependent. This list was submitted with our 1etter of the 16th of April, and, being approved by the Secretary, the reduction took effect on the 18th of that month. Havill~ determined the number of persons whose services might, in onr opinion. be spare(!, we then proceeded to prepare a list of 293 other employes for discharge; 

which list we submitted on the 28th of April. This !ist included the names of 63 

persons who bad been recommended for discharge in our first report, but who were at that time retained by the Secretary. 

The persons retained by us after the first discharge being represented as, in most cases, of equal competency, we were enabled, in preparing the second list, to give much greater consideration to Army services and to the number of persons depend- ent on the several employes for support than, under our instructions, was previously 

pos:-ible. In makinF up the list of persons for this discharge we acted independ- ently of the chief ot the bureau, and endeavored to ascertain by onr own personal 

estimates and observations both tbe amount of work to be done and the number of 

persons required to do it. For information on some points we were, howev~r, neces- sarily compelled to rely upon the statements of the superintendent-s of divisions. 

We endeavorE>.d also at this time to purge the bureau of all persons whose character or conduct had brought discredit upon it in the past. Of the 387 persons at this time recommended for retention, 172 were eommended 

by Army sE>rvices rendered by themselves or their immediate relatives, while of 

the ~0 newly recommended for discharge only 38 were so commended. The former 

had 1,228 other pet-sons wholly dependent on them for support, while the latter had 

but 4:.!'2 persons so dependent. In arriving at these facts we were in great measure guided br· the statements of the employes themselves, each of whom was required to su~mi answers to a printed schedule of inquiri~s covering these points. (Ap- pendiX J:S.) Of the 293 persons recommended for discharge, ~ were retained by the 

Secretary, and the names of 11 others were added by him to the list-the net. reduc· 

tion in the force at this time being 2G2 persons. 

The total force borne upon the pay-rolls of the bureau on the 1st of April-inclusive of the paper-room of the Secretary's office, but exclusive of the force em- ployed at the paper-mill-and the numbers discharged, or who have resigned, are as follows: 

$~ i~~:::::: ~:: ~:: ~: ~ ~; ~ ~ ~ ~ ~::::: ~::::: ~;:::: ~ ~:: ~:: ~;; ~ ~:::. ~ 958 

Total reduction .•.............................•...•........••.... --= 539 

Number employed May 1. ............•.......•................•........•••••• 419 

The total decrease is equal to about 56 per cent. of the force as it existed on April 1, and results in a. saving to th~ Treasll:ry of about $390,000 per annum. It is now n.ppll:rent, ho~ever, that, notw1t~standing these large reductions, the force t~ still 

C011.81.derably tn excess of the requtrements of the bureau. This is due mainly to the 

fact that the full numbers re~ommen~~ ~y us have not been discharged; but partly, a.ls~. U? the fact.tl;tat the chiefs of d_iVIsions, upon ~hom.we necessarily largefy relil'd m determmmg the force reqmred, were too lib~ral tn their estimates. The 

truth is, it had been so long &ince the empl{)yes were required to work up to their full 

capJlcity, that the standard for a day's work had become very much lowered. A r~viSed comp_utation shows ~hat at lea~t 70 employes, including printers and press- gu-ls, may still be spared without detriment to the service. . Our inve;.tigatio~ show that the force of the bureau has for many years been 

ill excess of the requtrements of the work, and that this was the case even when the 

work ~a~ ~e greatest. We are informed and believe that the force employed in some dtt~tBWns was for a number of years together twice as great a~ was required for the proper performance of the ?JJI?r?c, and that in others it was three times as great as necessary. In one of these dins10ns a sort of platform had been built underneath 

the iron ro~f, about seven feet above the floor, to accommodate the surplus counters. On th1.s shelf, on parts of_ w~ch a person of ~r<linary height could not stand 

erect-depnved of proper ventilation, and exposed rn summer to the joint effects of 

the heated roof above and the fumes of the wetted paper beneath-were placed some thirty or more women who had received appointruents, and for whom room m~st be found. It now appears that the room was of ample size, without this con- tnvance, to accommodate all of the persons really needed ; that the surplus force 

VII-99 

stowed away in the loft was entirely unnecessary; and t.llat some of them, at times 

jOT lack Oj OCCUpation, Whiled away the time in Sleep. ' 

In t?e printing ~visio? we found :.wenty Je'mf!k messengers, sixteen of whom were ostensiblv engaged ill taking the sheets, as received from the printers, to the exam- ining division. As soon as a few hundred sheets were ready, they were taken up on a board and carried by a messenger through a. narrow passage to the examiners. 

The messengers were so numerous as to be actually in each other's way. On our recommendation they have all been discharged and replaeed by one man who takes 

all the sheets to the examiners en a truck, and finds time for otlu?:r uiort besides. 

Many other instances of a simiJa.r nature might be given. To the pursuance of this policy of o•erc1·owdin_g the bureau with needless em- ployes was due the fact that the enormous appropriations for the last :fiscal year .aggregating ot~er $2,000,000, were spent in a little more than seven months, the print: ing of the public securities stopped, and seventeen hundrea people thr011J11. out of 

e'fY!'ployment. Officers of the bureau now state _tha~ the appropriations, if expended W1~proper economy, were ample to have C?amed It t.hrough the year; and in this 

oprmon we fully concur. To the same policy was due the excess of force existing at the time this committee began its investigations. 

A further illustration of the ideas and methods which have prev:riled in the bu- reau is furnished by the fact testified to before the committee by its late chlef that 

in April, 1876, the p~y of the female employes was, by thedireetion of the Secretary, cut down from $1.7;, to $1.50 a day-not as a. measure of economy, but in or.<lerthat 

the amount thus savell might be expended in the employment of more people. The reason assigned for this action wa.s that the pressure for place was so great that 

something must be done to satisfy the demands made upon the Secretary. 

The apparent causes which have led to these unfortunate resnlts are twe, each 

of which is the complement of the other: Lavish appropriations, and appointments 

through political influenc~. The whole system seems to have revolved in a vicious 

circle. Appropriations have been secured by maJ...~g appointments for Congress- men, without regartl to the fitness of the appointees or the necessities of the work ; and, when secured, they have been expended in such manner as to retain the goodwill of those already friendly or to secure that of others. .Moreover~ the bureau 

has been made to subserve, to a. great extent, the purpose of an almsnO'USe 0'1 asylum. If a woman was found to be in destitution, that fact was dee111ed a. sufficient cause for demanding that employment be given her as an act of charity, regardless 

of the n~s of the se_r:vico or of her own competency, and in ~s way m:m:v peo- ple who ill any other mty would have depended on some pu.blw or pn11ate charity 

have found a refuge in a. bureau which aims to compete with private enterprise, and w bich, in order to fulfill the purpose of its establishment, should be ilB8elltially a workshop. 

We cannot condemn too strongly the system of patronage, which is chiefly re- sponsible for the extravagance and irregularities that have heretofore marked the 

management of the bureau, and which, it is safe to say, has cost the people millions 

of dollars in this branch of the service alone. Without it, there wonhl have been no incentive to waste the public moneys in the payment of needless employes; 

with it, no matter what reforms may be illstituted for the time, w~ greaay fear that no permanent improvement is possible. 

We believe that an entire change of policy in this respect is FequiJed. In the 

first place, the appropriations shoUld be based upon careful estimates, noj enly of 

the quantity of work to be done, but of the proper cost of doin_,g it, which cost.should 

be ascertained-not from the estimates of the bureau, but trom the prices which 

would be charged therefor by private establishments. Heretofore the cost of one year has been made the basis of the estimate for the next; and in this way a sys- tem of extravagance, once established, has perpetuated itself from )'ear to• year. 

In the second place, no increase of force should ever be permitted by tho Secretary, except upon a written certificate from the Chief of the Bureau that the work 

has increasrd in specified branches, and that a designated nnmbeF of persons of a certain cla~s are required to perform it. The Secre tary, if satisfied with the rea- sons given, should then authorize in writing the employment of the additional 

number of persons necessary. 

The nominees should, in our opinion, be subjected to a simple, practicalexamination, to ascertain whether they are of the proper a~e, healthi and pbysieal and 

mental capacity to perform the dntieg to be assignea them. f found qualified, 

they should receive probationary appointments for a limited period-s.'\y not more than three months, at the expiration of which time the Chief of theBureao should 

be required to report whether their conduct and capacity have been snob as to en- title them to permanent appointments. In the case of an unfavorable repOYt, they should be dropped. No removals should be made except for cause, or oa account of a. reduction m the work. 

The number and compensation of each grade of employes should be jiud ~ law 

subject to the condition that if the work should fallshortof the estimated amount' 

the force should be decreased in like proportion. ' 

We earnestly recommend that future appointments in the bnrea.n be confined, as far as possible, to the deserving and competent persons who have been removed 

without fault of theirs, in consequence of the reduction of work. The adoption of 

such a policy would be not only for the best interests of the Department. but an act of justice to a class of meritorious persons. 

And gentlemen on the other side of the Hbuee sat there and aJiowed 

this to go on, and we are told by the report of the subcommittee appointed by the Secretary that in that bureau there were three times 

the number of clerks appointed that the business of the offiee required; that they had been appointed for the purpose of )nducing 

members of Congress of this House and the Senate whose friends 

received positions there to vote appropriations of money. This bas 

been the purpose of it, and a number of persons have been there in 

idleness spending their time in sleep. .Again, sir, a part of the reduction that took place at that time grew from the fact that a large 

amount of work which had been done in reference to the printing of 

legal-tender notes was suspended and that work being stopped it 

allowed of these reductions in this bureau; and while these appropriations have been urged in this way, the reduction may ba.,.e been 

made under the power of public opinion upon the Secretary of the 

Treasury. He comes here to-day asking for more money for temporary clerks than has ever been allowed before. He is doing the very 

thing which he in 1858 described as a usurpation on the part of the 

beads of Departments in not confining themselves to the appropriations provided by Congress or even within the expenditures which 

had obtained in their Departments for several years. 

Mr. DANFORD. Has not the regular force employed in that Depa,rtment been largely decreased since the commencement o.f the 

present administration' 

Mr. BLOUNT. It has; but that bas largely been on account of 

the reduction of labor from the fact that silver haa been substituted 

for fractional currency, that has permitted these reductions. But 

in f~.rther answer to the gentleman I say that he and his friends sat 
1570 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. MARon 7, 

here for eight years in the midst of this corruption and not one word 

of protest eame fr9m them. 

Mr. DANFORD. What corruption t 

Mr. BLOUNT. In this very Bureau which the subcommittee appointed by the Secretary himself allege to have been in existence. 

Mr. DANFORD. Does he himself allege corruption! 

MJ.·. BLOUNT. He does; he alleges that employes were appointed 

for the. purpose of getting appropriations of money, and that millions were expended for these very parties in this particular Bureau. 

Sir, for years millions of dollars in a single Bureau of the Treasury 

Department had been expended, not for doing the work of the Government, bot for corrupting legislators. 

Mr. DANFORD. Do yoa say that the Secretary of the Treasury 

made these statements Y 

Mr. BLOUNT. I say that gentlemen who were friends of the Secretary of the Treasury and appointed as a commission to investigate 

this matter make the very sta~ments that I have already quoted. 

Their report is interesting reading, and as the gentleman has not 

read it, it will do some good perhaps if he will recur to it. The gentleman will find what has been alleged, that while there has been a waste of public money and a waste in various places in all the Departments, this cry of excessive expenditures has not been a senseless 

cry. Gentlemen talk about charity and of voting away money for 

the purpose of charity. Sir, I love charity. The poor are all over the 

land. ·If gentlemen havE\ sympathy for them and will sacrifice from 

their own purse for the benefit of these people their charity will do a practical work; bot when it comes to expending the people's money 

for charity and claiming personal merit for it, it descends below the 

level of common honesty, and for one I do not conceive that I have 

power to go into the Treasury for the purpose of distributing alms 

in this oity. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. FOSTER. I regret exceedingly that the amendment that I 

bad the honor to offer, or at least a portion of it, was ruled out of 

order. That being so, I am disposed to favor the amendment of the 

gentleman from Indiana. The gentleman from Georgia [Mr. BLOUNT] 

has torn passion into tatters over the past condition of tho Treasury 

Department and be speaks particularly of the Bureau of Engraving 

and Printing. Does the gentleman know that a democratic House 

sat here two years, corrupted as he states by that bureau, without 

accomplishing anything in the way of investigation f 

Mr. BLOUNT. Will the gentleman allow me to aMwer f 

Mr. FOSTER. The gentleman and his friends had so many em- ployes in that bureau. · Mr. BLOUNT. ''The gentleman" had none. Mr. FOSTER. They had so many that they could not move against 

the Bureau of Printing and Engraving, and it devolved upon this 

man, the pres&nt Secretary of the Treasury, from whose remarks in 

1857 the gentlema111 bas read, to make this investigation and to make 

the reform which •has been accomplished there. He has reduced the ~xpenditores of that bureau over $600,000 below the appropriation 

made for it by the last democratic Hoose. 

Mr. FRANKLIN. Will the gentleman allow me to interrupt him f 

Mr. FOSTER. This is a plain question of business. I am not here 

to speak about the charity that is involved in this appropriation; 

bnt I wan.t to say this to the Committee of the Whole, and I particula-rly call the a11teation of the chairman of the Committee on Appropriations [Mr. ATKL.~S] and other gentlemen to the fact that there are in several bureaus of the Department--

Mr. FRANKLIN. Will the gentlemanYr. FOSTER. Not now ; after I get through. There are in several 

bureaus of the Department, in the Second Auditor's Office particularly, in the Third Auditor's Office, and in the Adjutant-General's Office, a large number of files that are in a very bad condition. Now 

those files need indexing; they need arranging; they need repairing. 

And I undertake to say that there is not a gentleman in this House, 

not ooo, who, if ha will examine these files and see the condition they .are in and tho need for repairing and indexing them, will not say that 

we ~mght to appropriate thrice this sum to put_ them in repair; and 

that it would be most excellent economy to do so. Why, sir, I saw the other day in one of the offices, and the chairma.nof the Committee on Appropriations saw it with me, a single 

roll that was at least from ten to fifteen feet long; being the roll of .a hospital. It was not indexed ; they had not the clerical force to 

index it ; the necessary force had not been given them by republicans .or democrats. And when information is sought to be obtained from 

that roll, it bas to be taken down and the list of names looked through .one by one before the name sought for can be found and the information sou"ht for obtained. 

Now, f say to you, Mr. Chairman, and to the members of this Committeo of the Whole, as a. man of business, as a man who has a great 

deal of familiarity with these things, that the best economy this IIouse ca.n. engage in to-day is, if they could know that the appropriation 

would go for that purpose, to appropriate ~ sum that would at once, or a.s soon as pos~ble and practicable, pot these rolls into a condition 

where they might be examined and the information in them readily 

obta.inoo. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman has expired. 

Mr. FOSTER. I would like a little more time. 

Mr. CALKINS. I will take the floor and yield my time to the gen- tleman from Ohio. , 

Mr. FRANKLIN. Will the ~en man fi·om Ohio [Mr. FOSTER] 

allow we to ask him a q uestiou 1 

Mr. FOSTER. Certainly. 

Mr. FRANKLIN. Did I understand the gentleman correctly as saying that the Bureau of Engraving and Printing had not been investigated; that a democratic Congress sat here for two years and 

made no attempt to investigate it . • Mr. FOSTER. I did not say that. 

Mr. FRANKLIN. What did you say Q 

Mr. FOSTER. I said that a democratic Congress had oot success- fully investigated it; and that the success of reducing expenditures there was due to the Secretary of the Treasury. 

Mr. FRANKLIN. I desire to say to the gentleman that that bureau was investigated last year by the Committee on Expenditures in the 

Treasury Department, and that the evidence was printed. That evidence shows that tne then Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. Morrill, 

stated that there were more empfoyes in the Bureau of Engraving and 

Printing than was necessary, several hundred more. Mr. FOSTER. I cannot afford to have the gentleman's speech come out of my time. 

Mr. FRANKLIN. And that it was not from his desire that it was so, but because of the importunities of members of Congress. 

Mr. FOSTER; I agree with every word that wa.s said in 1857 by 

the present Secretary of the Treasury. I believe in economy, and 

the chairman of the Committee on Appropriations and my associates on the subcommittee on the legislative appropriation bill will accord 

to me the credit of saying that everywhere and in every place that I 

could find room for reduction to the extent of a single dollar I have 

gone with them in favor of that reduction. The present Secretary 

of the Treasury, who in 1857 made the remarks which have been read 

here, has of his own a~cord reduced the expenses of running his Department, taking into consideration all its various branches, more than a million of dollars below the appropriation made by your democratic Congress. 

Mr. BLOUNT. How much Y 

Mr. FOSTER. More than a million of dollars in the Bureau of Engraving and Printing and in the other branches of that Department. 

:Mr. BLOUNT. The report does not say so. Mr. FOSTER. Yes, it does. If yon will examine the reports in 

reference to the Boston, New York, and New Orleans custom-houses, 

&c., yon will find that there bas been a reduction of more than a million of dollars. 

Mr. SOUTHARD. Were not those reductions resisted at that time 

by the Department and by the republican party of this House ; and 

while the democratic party was trying to make a reduction of twelve 

hundred clerks in the Treasury Department, would the Department 

and the republican party here consent to a reduction of more than seven hundred t 

Mr. FOSTER. I do not wish to yield all my time in this way. If 

I bad time I could tell the gentleman all about it; his statement is 

very easily answered. What I was trying to say is this: that this 

gentleman has made this reduction of his own accord, and I repeat now what I said several days ago, that in my judgment he is one of 

the best administrative officers this country has ever seen. He says 

to us, I can employ the clerks I ask for, and I recommend this appropriation of $30,000. This he says to yon after saving more than a million of dollars of the appropriations made by a democratic Congress. 

Now I say that any gentleman who made sncb a speech as that in 

1857 and who illustrates the principles of that speech in his action as Secretary of the Treasury is entitled to be heard upon this floor. 

Nay, more; my friends on the committee will testify that he has re- sisted cormorants who are trying to filch more than 2,000,000 from 

the Treasury of the United States and has sent them to Congress to 

urge their claims. In every conceivable way that gentleman has been 

saving money to the Government. On everypossibleocca.sion he has 

been found acting in the interest of the people and in exact accord 

with the speech made by him in 1857. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. MILLS. 1\fr. Chairman, I appreciate economy, I suppose, as much as anybody else, and I favor it wherever it is legitimate; bot I 

do not think this an occasion when the doctrine of economy applies. 

I do not believe that it is good policy to reduce the rations of a starving man; I do not think it is conducive to his restoration to health 

to lessen the amount of bread that shall be given him to eat. There are great causes for the depression of the industries of our country and for the distress that prevails all over the land. Those cau es can 

never be reached by stinting the labor of the country, by "economy/' falsely so called, or by any amount of special pleading of the kind wo are accustomed to be treated to on this floor. If we would restore 

prosperity to the country, we must take the hand of the tax-gath- erer from the doors of the hovels of povert;y and place it upon the 

piles of accumulated wealth in the land. At present taxation is 

spread out all over this country in tmch a way that it is one vast 

anaconda, crushing the prosperity of the people; and now, when they 

cry out in distress, they are told "you most eat less bread; -you 
f878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1571 

must drink water instead of coffee or milk ; " and we are urged to 

continue the policy of paring the nail of the finger of the hand until 

the country can grow up into prosperity again. The Secretary of the Treasury presents to thi8 Hoose a letter in 

which he states that he can employ usefully to the Government of 

the United States a certain number of poor people. Why, Mr. Chairman, it has been a most interesting subject of thought to the states- men of Europe to determine how to give employme11t to poor people 

and to prevent distress and starvation. 

Mr. BLOUNT. I will ask the gentleman whether they have been 

doing it by multiplying offices. 

Mr. MILLS. No, sir; they do not multiply offices; and I wish the ~entleman, instead of cutting down some body's meat and bread, could 

bring his mind to reforming the great abuses of this Government 

i;hat lie in the road of taxation. Our revenue laws are the curses of 

the country; and it can never enjoy prosperity until those laws are 

reformed. 

Mr. HEWITT, of Alabama. What is it that causes the distress to 

which the gentleman refers! 

Mr. MILLS. If I had an hour I would tell the gentleman. 

Mr. HEWITT, of Alabama. Is it not in part the extravagant ex- penditures of the Government! 

:Mr. MILLS. No, sir; it is not. We are suffering under a policy of 

taxation which, while bringing into the Treasury $130,000,0CO, costs 

the people oi the country from $1,200,000,000 to 1,500,000,000 that 

goes to swell the we:tlth of monopolies. The concentration into a few 

hands of the wealth produced by the labor of the country is what has 

brought about the distress now prevailing; and that distress will 

linger at your cloors until your state8men rise to the demands of the 

occasion and resist the exactions of those monopolies. You can never help the condition of the country by turning out a few poor widows 

to shed their tears, because driven out into the storms of heaven, 

without knowing where to get their bread or where to pillow their 

heads. This Government, if it can usefuJly employ the poor people 

of this country, will commit a crime before Heaven if it refuses to do 

it and 11ermits them to starve. I believe that whenever it can usefully 

be done it is the duty of the Government to give such employment., an<l I shall vote for the amendment of the gentleman from Ohio. 

Mr. BAKER, of Indiana. In the tive minutes allo""ed me I shall 

not have time to indulge in any general panegyric on the subject of 

retrenchment and reform or to urge the necessity of large expenditures for the purpose of giving the idle people of the country employment. I desire to say that I Yery greatly regret that the genj;leman 

having charge of this bill [Mr. DunHAM] saw :fit to interpose a point 

of order against the amendment offered by the gentleman from Ohio, 

[Mr. FosTER.] As a member of the subcommittee having in charge 

the subject of temporary clerks, I have had occasion to investigate 

that mat.ter by several times visiting that Department., reaching as early as I was able conclusionB that did not depend on the mere ipse 

dixit of the Secretary of the Treasury. For one I do not propose while a member of this Honse to act as some gentlemen profess their willingness to act, as a mere registering clerk for the purpose of carrying 

out the requests of the heads of the Departments. While other gentle- men may understand it to be their dnty to appropriate the last dollar 

declared to be necessary by the heads of Departments, shutting their 

eyes and ''going it blind," I for one cannot do it. 

I wish to say that, if the mere employment of temporary clerks were the only matter to be provided :for now, $6,500 is in my judgment 

the largest amount that ought to be voted for that purpose. But I 

believe that $25,000 or $30,000 could be and ought to be employed at once for the purpose·of procuring file-boxes and for indexing andrepairing the two hundred thousand bundles of Army rolls that I have seen in the office of the Second Auditor of the Treasury. Each of 

those two hundred thousand bundJes consists of one hunched separate 

rolls; and the great bulk of them are bound together by leather 

i!traps around the middJe. Another lot, embracing a very large 

quantity, are tied with little white whip-cords. The building is 

floored with brick. There are no pigeon holes in which to put theRe 

papers; but they are shoved in upon shelves. I have seen the result 

.of this kind of work, on which forty-five clerks have been employed 

and upon which forty-five more could be employed if you should incrcuiSe the expenditure. But it is just as wise and just as economical 

to boy sieves to dip out a spring as to use money year after year as we have been doing in patching these records, to be worn out again 

within four or five or six months of the time when they are repaired. 

What this Government ought to do, what any man able to run a ~orner grocery on u cross-road would do, would be to index these rolls 

.and buy file-boxes in which to put them. How do they do now! A man who wants to find the condition of a soldier on one of these rolls 

goes and unties and unstraps one of these bundles composed of one 

hundred papers and searches through each of the hundred rolls simply to see whether the man is there, spending a large amount of time, 

when, if they were indexed and repaired aml put in boxes, in one .single minute the work of searching for a soldier could be carried 

through with that takes from ten minutes to two boors, I am told by .a. clerk, to accomplish now. Yet members of Congress sit here and on points of order allow an appropriation that ought to ue made go 

i>ut of the bill. 

I say 1 will not vote a dollar beyond 6,000 for the purpose of being 

'Spent in that sort of service; and if any man here wants to go it blind, 

let him go it blind, but I have seen and know the needs of the serv- ice, and I know that it is folly, such as would not be indulged by any 

successful business man, to repair these rolls to be worn out before 

any preparation has been made for saving them by indexing and purchasing :file-boxes in which to keep them. 

[Here the hammer fell.) 

Mr. ATKINS. Mr. Chairman, I do not see any necessity for any 

political feeling or discussion on this appropriation bill. I want to 

say that I believe the appropriation we want to make is ample for the 

purpose. What is that purpose! The purpose is to provide employment for a number of clerk~ who have been dismissed from the Trea.sury Department. The committee does not expect to make appropriations by Congress to provide employment for every needy person in 

this city. Why, gentlemen, I tell you that would exhaust your Treasury. It would exhaust your Treasury if you bad five times there- sources yon have with whic.h to fill your Treasury, were yon to provide employment for every needy person in Washington, or its vicinity, or in the States, who would come here provided they couJd pro- cure employment. 

Are these clerks really needed Y That is the question Y Are they 

really needed? It is true the Secretary of the Treasury has said they 

could be usefully employed. Yes, gentlemen, they can be employed 

at public work or public labor, I will admit; but that work can be 

very well postponed. I undertake to say there is no report before 

this committee from any Secreta1-y or any committee of this House 

which shows there is a great and imminent necessity for this appropriation. I undertake to say with some knowledge of the facts that 

the work which is proposed to be done by these employes, should they 

be reinstated, can be postponed without any detriment to the public 

service. Therefore I want to say it is simply a matter of charity. 

I turn now to my eloquent friend from Texas, [Mr. MILLs,] whom 

I aJways listen to with great pleasure. I feel an electrical thrill when 

I hear him, for be is always unique and original. He wishes this 

Government to be a great eleemosynary institution. He wishes this 

Government to be a great alms-boose. No tongue is more eloquent 

than his in standing here and pleading the cause of the poor, and es- pecialJy of the poor women of the country. I honor him for his feeling; but is that our duty as Representatives Y Is it our duty to stand 

here and make money for the needy t I tell gentlemen if they appro- , priate $30,000 as provided here to employ these ninety cJerks, five 

times ninety or one hundred times ninety just as needy, and perhaps more so, will be ready at our door to make the same appeal. 

Talk about the idea that this Government is to make appropriation 

because people come and say they are poor and needy I If you wish 

to enter upon a general system of internal improvements, if you wish 

to enter upon a general system of public building, if yon wish to 

erect great palatial establishments in this country where there may 

be need for them, if you wish to build railroads, if you wish to con- struct canals, that is another question; and on that I have nothing new to say, because it is not pertinent to the issue. But when we are asked here to appropriate $30,000 simply because some poor women ask it at our hands, of Congress, it does seem to me you are stepping 

beyond the path of your duty. 

[Here the hamm~r fell.] 

Mr. HUMPHREY. I move as an amendment to the amendment 

of the gentleman from Indiana to make the sum $30,000 instead of 

25,000, on the principle that we do not stand here, to-day asking this 

Government shaJl be turned into an eleemosynary institution, not fol' 

the purpose of throwing our charities over the country and spreading them everywhere for the purpose of helping the needy, but for 

the purpose of doing that which ought to be done at the tirno it 

ought to be done, and not putting it off away from the proper time 

when it ou~ht to be done. 

Mr. Chairman, it is stated here that this bill or this amendment is 

for the purpose of showing our charity to a class of needy people. I 

ask, if in a time when depression is general throughout the country, 

if this Government can lift its hand and can aid a class of people and 

give them labor when they cannot get it elsewhere, and yet not make 

it a charity to employ the labor so that it shall be useful, whether it is 

not its duty, its bounden duty, to do it. And I say to the Committee on Appropriations that there is a voice ca.lling louder to-day than 

theirs, a voico from the ground calling upon this Congress to do some- thing to carry on every public improvement, to move every nerve this 

Government possesses to take the people out of the slough of despond, 

to let the laboring people have a chance to work upon your 1mblic 

works, to work upon your canals, to work wherever you can givo 

them work . Why, sir, when England was in a state of depression, when that 

money was spent so lavishly as stated by the London papers by the 

Queen to celebrate the recovery of the Prince of Wales, what was the 

reply she authorized Y It was that all through London destitution was staring the poor people in the face, and she was spending that 

money to give the poor artisans bread; and this reply silenced the 

complaint of every newspaper in London. 

There is no charity about this. Your charities commenced perhaps 

years back when the last Congress said they saved $38,000,000, but 

the strikes took more than $25,000,000 of that away in four weeks. 

That is the question. You may put it where you please or may 

hide it where you please. It is the question put by the people of this 

country, whether this Congress will not ~o something to lift the people 
I' 

1572 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. MARon 7, 

up. The policy of every government on the face of the earth has 

been to use its means in this way when necessary, even if it should 

bring on a deficit, because the people of the ]and do not care how much 

you run into debt if you keep them from starvation. When times are better you can then take means to pay the debt. You cannot make the 

poor people believe that a time like this is the time for paying off the 

Q.ebt. And you can save, for instance, even the interest on 300,000,000 

of greenbacks, im,tead of redeeming them, by Jetting them circulate, 

and saving that interest and applying it where it is needed somewhere 

else. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. DURHAM. I rise to oppose the amendment. 

Mr. Chairman, I stated in the speech opening the debate upon this 

bill that upon a fair investigation it would be found twenty clerks were all that were necessary in this Department. Now I am sorry my collea~e upon the committee, the gentleman from OhioMr . .HUMPHREY. May I ask the gentleman a question 7 

Mr. DURHAM. I hope the gentleman will wait till I am done. I 

did not interrupt him while he was speaking. 

Mr. HUMPHREY. I do not wish to interrupt the gentlemen; but 

I wish to say that I asked the Secretary of the Treasury personally 

about the matter, and be said be bad employment for the whole 

number. 

Mr. DURHAM. Oh, he has employment for a thousand. Now I am talking business. I hope I do not come here in any partisan spirit, 

and you never :find me drawing politics into a business transaction, 

but I put it to the honor and sense of every gentleman on ·this floor 

whether or not be can lay his hand upon his breast after be bas beard 

al1 this argument and say that more than twenty clerks are required 

to answer the demands of the Treasury during the balance of the fiscal 

year. 

Now, my ingenious friend from Ohio [Mr. FOSTER] begged the question in his argument this morning. He had to get up and make an appeal for the Adjutant-General's Office in order to make out the 

necessity for this. 

Mr. FOSTER. Not at all. 

Mr. DURHAM. Now, the question I put to the Honse in my fust 

&tatement, and I intend to press it home upon the House, is simply 

this: are more than twenty clerks necessary in this Department ' 

Yr. FOSTER. Now, will the gentleman permit me right here--

Mr. DURHAM. I cannot yield just now. If more than twenty 

clerks are not necessary, then I insist you place this upon the ground 

of charity and nothing but charity. And if I can get good men enough-and I do not say it in the spirit of trying to terrify gentle- men-but if I can get good men enough on that side of t.he House, as I know they will stand by me on this side of the House, I will give 

them an opportunity to put their names on the record upon this question as to whether or not you regard this in the light of a charity or a business transaction. Now I wil11 bear the question of the gentle- man from Ohio. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

The CHAIRMAN. Debate on the pending amendmentisexhausted. 

Mr. HUMPHREY. I withdraw my amendment. 

Mr. CALKI~S. I renew it. 

Mr. Chairman, I do not think the gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. 

DURHAM] or the gentleman from Tennessee, [Mr. ATKINS,] either of 

them, put this question to the House in the proper form. The fact 

that eighty-five clerks can be used for necessary work that ought to 

be done now in the Treasury Department, is certainly an argument 

in favor of the use of that number. The fact that the work is to be 

done and that it is necessary to be done, is an argument m favor of· employing that many unless there be some special reason why at this 

time the Government cannot spare the money. 

Of all times in the world, when everything is depressed, when it is 

known that f.he laboring classes of the people are out of employment, if the Government has work to do and it is necessary that it 

should be done, do not put it off as the gentleman from Tennessee 

[Mr. ATKINS] says, nordolbelievethathequotesthe gentleman from 

Texas [Mr. MILLS] aright, for I did not understand that gentleman 

to say that he wanted the Government to employ these poor persons as a matter of charity, but because the Government has work to do; 

and if there ever was a time when the Representatives should lay 

aside politics it is now, and extend this relief to the people who are suffering, not because the Government can put it off, not because it can san niggardly along. 

Mr. DURHAM. Will the gentleman allow me to ask him a question f 

Mr. CALKINS. I have but five minutes and the gentleman would 

not allow himself to be interrupted, nor can I. 

I beg to say to the House that one of the great reasons why the 

country is suffering is because all capitalists are drawing in their 

money. Capital is conservative. Whenever you attack capita], it is 

always drawn in. Now is the time for the Government to be liberal, 

not excessive, but do not be parsimonious. 

I say to tbe committee when this suffering is stalking as it is abroad now is the time for you upon that side of the House to show by your 

votes whether or not your hearts are in sympathy with the laboring 

classes. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. DURHAM. I would like to have some end put to this debate, 

and unless some agreement can be arrived at I shall move that the 

committee rise for the purpose of closing it. 

Mr. CALKINS. I withdraw my amendment. 

Mr. FOSTER. I renew it. 

Mr. DURH.Altl. We must have some end to this debate. 

Mr. FOSTER. I desired to reply to the gentleman himself. 

Mr. DURHAM. Then let us have some understanding. 

Mr. FOSTER. I believe I have the floor; when I have finished my 

remarks the gentleman can move to close debate. 

Mr. DURHAM. I hope my colleague on the committee will let us have some agreement as to bow long this debate is to run. Mr. FOSTER. When I have :finisbed my five-minute speech I will 

agree to any proposition the gentleman may make. 

Now I sayinallsincerityand I put it to the gentlemen on the other 

side, the members of this committee, and they have not answered the 

question, they have beg~ed it, while the fact is that the employment 

of these twenty-five additional clerks is useful, the only point mado 

by the other side against it is that it may be postponed. Now that 

is all there is about it. 

Mr. DURHAM. Now, will you answer theargumentofyourfriend 

from Indiana, [Mr. BAKER,] that the work done in the Second Auditor's Bureau does more harm than good, and these clerks are doing it f 

Mr. FOSTER. I am answering your argument. 

Mr. DURHAM. That was the argument of the gentleman from 

Indiana, [Mr. BAKER,] not mine. · Mr. FOSTER. Now, I am sure Mr. BAKER will say with me that 

yon can expend $25,000 in the Second Auditor'R Office usefully. 

Mr. BAKER, of Indiana. But they are to be properly expended. 

lh'. DURHAM. You cannot do it in this bill. 

Mr. FOSTER. It may be done under an appropriation properly 

expended, and I have no doubt that the money will be expended ex- actly according to my amendment, whether or not it is incorporated 

into the bill. 

The gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. DURHA.M] himself bad the 

honor of making the point of order against a useful amendment. 

Mr. DURHAM. I followed the instructions of my committee. 

Mr. FOSTER. But the committee is not always right. 

Mr. DURHAM. That may be; but I am doing what they instructed me to do. 

Mr. }'OSTER. The gentleman bases his argument on the fact that 

the law required the employment of enough temporary clerks to do 

the extra business while Congress is in session. I believe I state the 

gentleman's proposition correctly' 

Mr. DURHAM. Provided in the one hundred and seventy-:first sec- tion of the Revised Statutes. 

Mr. FOSTER. Now, I took the pains to inquire into this thing a little and I found that in the last Congress more than one hundred 

clerks were employed to answer the demands of Congress. The geJI.-

tleman from Missouri, [.Mr. BucKNER,] the present chairman of the 

Committee on Banking and Currency, introduced a single resolution 

that took the time of .three years and nine months to answer it, and 

it was never printed at all. It was the list of the stockholders in 

national banks. 

It takes to-day, allow me to tell the gentleman from Kentucky, the 

labor of more than sixty clerks to answer questions propounded by 

members of this House and by the House itself. 

Now I undertake to say that this appropriation will not answer the 

demands made upon the Secretary of the Treasury by Congress, and 

that is the basis upon which the gentleman from Kentucky proposes 

the $6,000. 

Now I wish to say further that while there is charity in this thing, 

while it is the duty of the House to furnish employment to these poor 

persons if we have it, there is an actual necessity for the appropriation of 25,000 for the use of that Department. 

On yesterday this Honse voted to commence a building that will 

cost $300,000, and it is the forerunner of perhaps ten or :fifteen millions more for similar purposes. Yet we sit here and cavil about a. twenty-five-thousand-dollar appropriation which is needed to put 

your tiles in proper condition, so that they may be readily examined 

and the information in them easily obtained. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman has expired. 

Mr. DURHAM. I propose to move that the committee now rise in 

order to obtain from the House an order limiting debate upon the 

pending clause and all amendments thereto, unless we can have some understanding in the committee. 

Mr. HANNA. How long a time f 

Mr. DURHAM. I propose to limit it to :fifteen minutes. 

Mr. FOSTER. Let us have the understanding here in committee. 

Mr. DURHAM. Very well. 

Mr. FOSTER. Perhaps ten minutes will be enough. 

Mr. HANNA. With the understanding that I can have five minutes. 

Mr. DURHAM. I will consent that debate upon the pending clause 

and amendments thereto be limited to ten minutes, of which I will 

yield :five minutes to the other side and keep five minutes for this 

side. I hope that will be agreed to. 

No objection being made, it was so ordered. 

Mr. DURHAM. I now yit\ld t.o the gentleman from Indiana [Mr. 

HANNA] for five minutes. 

Mr. HANNA. Mr. Chairman, I will state to the committee that I 
!878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1573 

offered this amendment in good faith. I offered it for the reason that 

I had faith to believe that the Secretary of the Treasury would not 

ask this House, as be did some five or six weeks ago, to make an apvropriation of $:~0,000 unless there was a necessity for it. As some five or six weeks have elapsed since be made that request, I propose 

to change the amount from $30,000 to $25,000. When I come to read 

his letter I am satisfied that a fair construction of it is that there is a necessity for the employment of these eighty-five temporary clerks. , And now I want to submit to the big-brained, broad-tread, practical democrats of this House whether or not it is wise economy to 

make an appropriation sufficient to promptly and efficiently disebarge the public service. Will you tell me that it is reform to re- fuse to do anything T Will you tell me that it is reform to refuse to 

make appropriations to pay honest debts Y 

If I were disposed to convert this into a political question I might 

have something to say in that regard; I might have something to 

say as to what this question of reform has resulted in heretofore, but 

I do not see proper on this occasion to go into that. 

I stand here to maintain, in view of what the Secretary of the 

Treasury has said to us, that there is a necessity for the employment 

of eighty-five persons; that they can be usefully employed, and that 

it is not wise economy to defer until to-morrow what ought to be 

done to-day. Why, sir, the language of the chairman of the Committee on Appropriations and of some other members of that com- mittee remind me of the statement of a fellow in Indiana who said 

that through life he had acted upon the maxim not to do to-day what 

he could put off until to-morrow. [Laughter.] 

Now, they do not pretend to say that the work upon which these 

clerks will be employed is not necessary to be done some time. But 

they come here with the howl that they propose to put us upon the 

record as being in favor of taking money from the public Treasury as public charity. Sir, I do not put it upon that ground; I put it upon 

the request of the Secretary of the Treasury that we make this appropriation, and upon the ground that the appropriation if made will be 

expended in the public service. Yea, more; it will be at a lower rate 

per diem than is paid any other clerks in any of the Departments; 

that is, 2 per day. 

Now, I want to ask you democrats of big brain who a few minutes 

ago voted almost solidly to employ ten experts-" experts!" fellows 

to nose into everything to the end that possibly you may make some political capital to be used in some constable's election-I want to appeal to you and to ask you how you will reconcile that vote with your 

vote against the recommendation and against the appeal of the Secretary of the Treasury. Can it be possible that any democrat upon this 

fioor will vote against this proposition by reason of his prejudice 

agai1;1st the Secret.ary of the TreasuryT I trust not. 

Mr. DURHAM. I will tell the gentleman that I am pleading for 

the poor man in his district and all over the country, and am not in 

favor of wasting money upon useless clerks. 

Mr. HANNA. My friend from Kentucky [Mr. DURHAM] I do not 

regard as a demagogue. [Laughter.] He was educated in Indiana, 

and be ought to be of broader brain than he has manifested upon this 

occasion. [Laughter.] . Mr. DURHAM. Will my friend allow me to say that I am very 

proud of my education, and that my education taught me business 

habits. 

Mr. HA.i.~A. Certainly, and I am coming right down to business. 

I say it is not good business habits to put off until to-morrow what 

you ought to do to-day. That is not economy; that is not reform; 

it is simply dodging the question ; that is the whole of it. And let me say further to the gentlemen that the time has passed when they can go to the people upon any such claim as that under the guise of 

reform. In view of what this Congress was called upon to do at the 

special session you cannot do that again in the next canvass with the 

cry of a Tilden and Hendricks and reform:" [Great laughter.] 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

The CHAIRMAN. The time ofthe gentleman has expired. 

Mr. BLOUNT. Mr. Chairman, the gentleman from Ohio [.Mr. FosTER] in the course of his speech said that the last House, which wa8 a democratic House, bad not reduced expenditures in the Bureau of 

Engraving and Printing and bad not conected the extravagances which obtained there. But, sir, it is to be remembered that the head 

of that Department, backed by the gentleman himself, came here 

and urged upon that democratic House an appropriation of $1,000,000, 

which we reduced 200,000. I concede that we did not make there 

and elsewhere all the reductions which were proper and justifiable; 

but it was because we had not facilities for obtaining the necessary 

information upon which to act. Hence we proceeded timidly in the 

matter of reduction. The gentleman says that he was for economy, 

reasonable economy, a\ways; yet any person familiar with the proceedings here during the last Congress will remember that standing 

where he now stands he was continually upbraiding this House for 

its efforts to seeure reduetion of expenditures. 

Now it ill said that this work is needful to be done; yet the very 

report made by this subcommittee, appointed by the Secretary of the 

Treasury, diseloses that there are quite a number of employes there now who ought not to be there. It is known that in the Treasury 

Department and other Departments of this Government employ6s do 

not occupy the time that they ought to occupy; and I undertake to 

say that the gentleman himself will be found voting for reductions 

in that very Department. If this be true, why is there need for more laborf 

It is proper here to make a distinction. I have said that it was the policy of the Government to fix the number of employ6s for the 

regular running of all these Departments. That has been done. We are now upon the subject of temporary clerks. If it is necessary to 

arrange the rolls, that is one thing; and when the subcommittee of 

which the gentleman is a member prepares its bill, let him provide 

for the proper number of employes for that purpose. But the point 

here is that we are providing for temporary clerks ; and the simple 

object of providing such clerks is to answer inquiries addressed by 

Congress to the several Departments. The gentleman tells us of the enormous number of calls made by the last Congress upon the Departments; yet nothing like the appropriation here proposed was ex- pended in answering such calls. In spite of the fact that far fewer 

calls for executive information are being made now than were made 

in the Forty-fourth Congress, we are asked to appropriate for temporary clerks, whose business is merely to answer inquiries sent by Congress to the several Departments, a larger sum than has been used in 

this way for the last six years. . [Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. DURHAM. My friend from Missouri [Mr. ITI'l\'ER] has been 

trying for half an hour to obtain the floor on this question. I ask 

unanimous consent that he may have five minutes; and then I shall 

call for a vote. 

There was no objection. 

Mr. ITTNER. Mr. Chairman, I wish to offer a few suggestions in 

support of the amendment increasing the amount proposed to be 

allowed for the use of the Treasury Department to $30,000 ; and, sir, 

I base my support of this proposition largely upon the admissions 

made this morning by the gentleman having charge of this bill. If 

there ever was a time in the history of thiB Government when the 

unemployed labor of the country appealed to 06ngress for relief, it is 

now; and I understood the gentleman in charge of this bill to admit 

here this morning that there was labor which might usefully be performed by the number of clerks that it is proposed to authorize, but 

that this labor could be deferred until ten years hence or some other 

period in the future. 

Now, Mr. Chairman, I voted yesterday for the bill authorizing the 

construction of a public building for a court-house, custom-house, 

and post-office at Kansas City, in the State of Missouri, and I stand 

here prepared to vote for like improvements in other portions of thia 

broad country where such improvements can be shown to be neces- sary. Mr. Chairman, I like the key-note which has been sounded by 

the gentleman from Texas, [Mr. Mrr.Ls,] a man with a large heart and a big head. He has properly indicated, I think, what should be the 

policy of the Government at thiB time. I do not believe in squandering the money of the people or in appropriating it for charitablepurposes; but I do say that if there be a.ny expenditure for public 

improvements or for any work in the Departments which may possibly become necessary within the next ten years I am in favor of au- thorizing appropriations at this time for the doing of such work. 

The gentleman in charge of this bill, when asked yesterday by the 

gentleman from Indiana [Mr. HANNA] whether this appropriation wa-s authorized by any existing law, stated that it wa-s proposed as an act of charity-nothing else. I ask, then, if this appropriation is . being made as an act of charity, why not extend that act of charity so as to include eighty-five of these clerks instead of a mere fraction 

of that numberY 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. DURHAM. I now call for a vote. 

The CHAffil\IAN. The time :fixed by the House for debate on this 

section and the pending amendments has expired. 

Mr. FOSTER. I withdraw my amendment to the amendment of 

the gentleman from Indiana, [Mr. ~A.] 

The question then recurred on the amendment of 1\Ir. HANNA; which was to make the section read as follows : 

That the Secretary of the 'l'reasW"y be, and he is hereby, authorized to emplo;r not exceeding eighty-five temporary elerks during the balance of the present fiscal 

year at a. rate not exceeding $2 per day each: Provided, That the whole sum to be 

expended for this purpose shall not exceed ..,25,000. 

The amendment was not agreet\ to; there being-ayes 74, noes 100. 

The question then recurred on the following amendment of 1\Ir. 

FOSTER, offered as a substitute for the section: 

. For the employment of temporary elerks in the Treasury Department, $35,000. 

Mr. FOSTER. I modify the amendment so as to make the amount 

$20,000. 

Mr. DURHAM. I hope the House will vote down the amendment. 

Mr. FOSTER. I want the House to understand that the amount of 

the appropriation in the amendment iB reduced to 20,000. 

Mr. DURHAM. And I want the House to understand that this is an increase of 14,000. 

The question being taken on agreeing to the amendment; there 

were-ayes 54, noes 105. 

Mr. FOSTER called for tellers. 

Tellers were not ordered. 

So the amendment was not agreed to. 

Mr. BAKER, of Indiana. I move the following amendment, to come in at the end of the first section: 

That it shall not hereafter be lawful to make any appointments in the several 
1574 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. MARon 7, 

Departments from the District of Columbia or from any State or Tenitory in excess ef the number to which it is entitled on the basis of an equal distribution of such 

appointments acco;-ding to the population ; nor shall it he!OOfter: be ~aw.ful to make 

any appointments m sa1d Departments from any congreBSional district m any State 

in excess of the proportion to which it is entitled 6~ the ~asi:S of. an eqUal tlis· 

tribution of appointments among the several congressiOnal districts m each State ; and on an after July 1, 1878, the said sev:eral Departments shall, as soon as prac- ticable, be reorganized so as to conform to the foregoing provisions. 

Mr. DURHAM. I heartily approve of the proposition, hut it is new legislation and I make the point of order against it. 

Mr. BAKER, of Indiana. I trust the gentleman will not object. 

I think it is eminently wise and proper. 

Mr. DURHAM. It is eminently wise and proper, but does not come 

in here. 

Mr. BAKER, of Indiana. It can come in here if the gentleman cloes 

not object to it. 

The CHAIRMAN. It does not appear to be necessary in the line 

of reduction of expenditures. 

Mr. BAKER, of Indiana. Let me make the parliamentary inquiry 

whether or not it is not in the line of retrenchment and reform and 

whether, as such, it is not entirely competent for me to offer it at 

this time 7 

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair has decided all that is necessary on this occasion. The amendment is out of order. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

SEC. 2. For diagrams, furniture, and repairs in the General Land Office, miscellaneous items, including two of the city newspapers to be filed, bound, and pre- served for the use of the office; for the actual expenses of clerks detailed to investigate fraudulent land entries, trespasses on the public lands, and cases of official misconduct, and for advertising and telegraphing, the sum of $20,000 : Pror;ided, That 

all moneys heretofore, and that shall "hereafter be, collected for depredations upon the public lands shall be covered in the Treasury of the United States as other 

moneys received from the sale of public lands. 

Mr. PATTERSON, of Colorado. I make the point of order that 

part of the section for the actual expenses of clerks detailed to investigate fraudulent land entries, trespasses on the pnblio lands, and cases of official misconduct, and for advertising and telegraphing, 

the sum of $20,000 is not in order. I think it is obnoxious to Rule 

120. Under that rnle it is a provision which cannot be incorporated 

into an appropriation bill because it provides for the expenditure of 

money not authorized by law. I will call the attention of the chair- man of the committee to the fact that this is not an appropriation 

for clerk hire or for pn.ying salaries of clerks, but an appropriation 

for the purpose of paying expenses incurred by clerks outside of their 

regular salary. And I ask the gentleman from Kentucky to refer to 

the provision of law by which traveling expenses or expenses for telegraphing or for htmting and seeking for witnesses to testify in land or other snits can be paid out of the publio Treasury! 

Mr. DURHA...~. Does the gentleman ask me now f 

Mr. PATTERSON, of Colomdo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. DURHAM. The gentleman's point of order comes entirely too 

late as this is a portion of the original bill. I refer him to six different 

acts in which it has been done. The acts of March 3, 1873, June~~ 

1874, March 3, 1875, Jnly 31, 1876, and of March 3, 1877. He will 

find the same provision in all of those acts. 

The CHAIRMAN. While the point of ·order might have been a good one if taken in time, yet as this is a part of the section of the 

original bill reported by the . Committee on Appropriations to the 

Honse and referred by it to the Committee of the Whole without 

reservation, as the Chair is informed, of points of order, it now comes 

too late. 

Mr. PATTERSON, of Colorado. I understood all points of order 

were reserved. 

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair is informed by the Clerk that no points of order were reserved on this bill. 

Mr. COX, of New York. I move to strike out the last word in order 

to say a few words to the younger members of the Honse and especially to those who have come in since the last Congress. Gentlemen on the other side of the House think this side has been derelict in some way. Mr. JONES, of Ohio. I hope order will be preserved as we want 

to hear the very interesting yonng gentleman from New York. 

Mr. COX, of New York. The gentleman can see rue if he cannot 

hear me. I want to tell gentlemen on the other side who are newly 

born to this Honse and are fresh to this kind of deb~te, of some work 

done in the matter of economy-done in good faith by this side and 

by older members-done to correct years of extraordinary extravagance. We began by adopting a rnle roported by myself. It is Rn1e 

120. It for bane a certain class of reckless appropriations; it said there 

should be retrenchment and not increase of salaries, on certain occa- sions. That rule was fought by gentlemen on the other side with 

persistency and boldness; because it was in the line of economy. But 

the rule was adopted and in despite of adverse prophecy it went along 

with our economy during that and the subsequent session. It enabled ns to save $30,000,000 in the first and 10,000,000 in the second session 

of the last Congress. 

Mr. FOSTER. Will the gentleman allow me to correct him Y 

Mr. COX, of New York. Not in a five-minute speech. 

Mr. FOSTER. The books show $18,000,000 of reduction and out of 

that is to be taken $6,000,000, deficiencies. 

Mr. COX, of New York. This book and the laws show that the 

democratic Committee on Appropriations cut down the estimates 

$65,865,000. From the year previous-this statement being made in 

August, 1876-they cut down $40,430,000. And yet the gentleman 

from Ohio was not happy. Then the Honserednctionscuttingdown 

the estimates were $64,246,000 ; nearly up to the reduction of our committee. From the appropriations of the previous year the House 

reductions were $3!3,910,000. And yet my friend from Ohio was not 

happy. Then we sent our measures to the republican Senate. 

Mr. DUNNELL. I wish to ask the gentleman--

Mr. COX, of New York. The gentleman is too far off for me to hear 

him. I hope he will not int~rrupt. The legislation as it finally 

passed was a reduction from the estimates of $55,379,000 and from 

the previous year a reduction of ~9,944,000; and yet my friend from 

Ohio was not ha-ppy with this retrenchment! 

J\.Ir. DUNNELL. I wish the gentleman to state from what he is 

reading. 

Mr. COX, of New York. From a tabular statement of the reductions made by tho legislation of the first session of the Forty-fourth 

Congress presented by Speaker RA~"DALL, who was then the chairman 

of the Committee on Appropriations. 

.A ME~mER. And he ran it well. 

Mr. COX, of New York. No one disputed that. I made a brief 

speech on that occasion, based on figures ascertained by the gentleman 

from Illinois [?tlr. SPRINGER] on the subject, and I showed that for 

New York State alone the reductions w~re 3,384,336.45; and that 

every congressional district in the United States had shared in the 

economy then effected to the amount of $102,000 a year. And yet the 

gentleman from Ohio is not happy. How and where can we make 

reductions to please him t 

These clerks about which this controversy arises work how many 

hours a day t Five hours. They go to their offices at nine o'clock, 

and leave at three, and they get well paid, considering how labor is now paid, taxed, and worked. I think it would be wise economy if we were to cut down 50 per cent. the salaries of all who get over $3,000, and25 per cent. the salaries of all who get between 1,000 and 

$.'3,000. At all events we might increase the hours of labor to at least 

eight hours, even if we keep up the salaries. 

Yon gentlemen talk about economy; yon say yon are lovers of the 

laboring-men; and yet yon leave clerks to work five hours a day when 

yon will not repeal the Jaw as to eight hours' labor, nor enforce it as yon Should in sb.ip-yards and other places where the skilled artisan 

and laboring-man-the man whose hands are callous with toil, and 

whose time is absorbed double that of clerks-happens to do the 

work. 

I hope my friend from Ohio hereafter will somehow be made happy, even over retrenchment, in the next world n.t least. I will be happy 

to meet him in some sweet by and by on the beautiful shore, where 

he will have no more such trouble and be at last happy about this 

matter of economy. [Laughter.] 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. H.ALE. I hope on the next appropriation bill to have some- thing to say about economy. At present I rise to give some information which I promised to the gentleman from Missi sippi [Mr. 

SINGLETON] and which I know if he does not have he will not be 

able to sleep. · 

The expert to whom I alluded awhile ago em_Ployed by the Committee on Printing wa-s Mr. J. P. Aleshire, of Gallipoli , Ohio, a miller oi 

that place who knew nothing about printing and who was bron~ht 

here by the chairman of the Committ.ee on Printing, Mr. Vance, bemg a. relative, not a brother-in-law, but a cousin of that gentleman. 

If the gentleman from Mississippi will look at Honse miscellaneous 

documents, page 60, item 8, he will find that the pay of this man as an expert in public printing is there given. 

Moreover, the gentleman from Ohio [Mr. NEAL] has a photograph 

copy of the receipt which may be found by any gentleman a,t the 

Treasury Department, where :Mr. Aleshire received his pay as an ex- pert in printing. I give this explanation for the benefit of the gentleman from Mississippi. I give him credit for sincerity in the statement he made in regard to this case; and I do not suppose that he purposely evaded it by talking about the clerk of the committeo or any 

other person, not this J\.!r. Aleshire. But the case is all the wor e-- ?t!r. FINLEY. Will the gentleman allow me-- Mr. HALE. I have not time to yield to interruptions. I wa-s saying that the case is all the worse; because these are the fact u I 

have stated them; and I am bound to believe that what was done was done without the knowledge of the gentleman from Mis i ippi. 

If I have any more time I yield it to the gentleman from Mi ~iss i ppi. 

Mr. SINGLETON. In regard to this matter of an expert to the 

Committee on Printing, I spoke from the record as it appears in the 

committee-room; and there is not, I venture to assert, an order, a resolution, or one single word upon that record that shows that Mr. 

Aleshire ever wa.s an expert to the Committee on Printing. 

Mr. HALE. There is the check of the Treasury Department. 

Mr. SINGLETON. Of this I know nothing. And I beg to state 

that my colleague on the committee on the other side of the House, 

the gentleman from Rhode Island1 [Mr. BALLOU,] never knew Mr. 

Aleshire as an expert ~that comiDJttee. On the contrru·y, the clerk was :Mr. Wiener, who now performs the duties of that position; and 

the expert we used on all occasions for examining the books, so far- as is known to me as a member of the committee, was Mr. Behle. 

Mr. HALE. Does the gentleman not see that that makes the caso 
1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1575 

all the worse Y The man was paid, as the records show, for the duties 

of an expert, which the gentleman says he never even attempted to 

execute. 

Mr. SINGLETON. Not to my knowledge didbe acti:a this capacity. 

A MEUBER. Who certified the accounts f 

Mr. SINGLETON. The chairman of . the committee. I have not 

gone out of the committee-room to find what transactions may have 

taken place between Mr. Vance, the chairman of the committee, and 

any other gentleman. I only speak of what took place in the com- mittee-room. And I again call upon my colleague on the committee, the gentleman from Rhode Island, [Mr. BALLOu,] to say whether 

he ever knew this man as an expert; whether he ever appeared before us as such; whether we ever used him in any capacity whatever. 

What may have occurred between birp and Mr. Vance outside of the 

committee I do not know. Mr. Vance, being our chairman, may have 

employed him without my knowledge. Ono thing I do know, however, we made very large reductions in the expenses of the Printing 

Office by onr Jabors, aided by :Mr. Behle as an expert. 

Mr. COX, of New York. I withdraw my amendment. 

Mr. HERBERT. I move to amend section 2~ in line 5, by striking ~mt the words "trespasses on the public lands.' 

Mr. HOOKER. I hope the gentleman from Alabama will allow me to say that if this amendment shall be adopted and this clause 

stricken out I will then move to reduce the total amount of the appropriations by subtracting from it the sum necessary for this purpose. 

Mr. HERBERT. I desire to call the attention of the House for a moment to one of the que tions really involved in this bill now before us-the policy of the Secretary of the Interior. When this matter was under discussion yesterday, gentlemen, at least on the other 

side of the House, seemed entirely to misapprehend the question before the House. I read from the remarks made by the gentleman 

from Indiana, [Mr. BAKER.] He said: 

If they are innocent they need no o~et: tribunal than the triblJ!lals of justice in 

the gentleman's own State to show thell' mnocence. If they are mnocent they are not the men to whom I am alluding. 

Mr. Chairman, the guilt or innocence of no man is involved in any 

prosecution or any proceeding whatever that has been instituted by 

order of the Secretary of Interior, so far as I am informed. He has 

not prosecuted a single person for depredating upon the public lands. 

He is proceedin~ upon an entirely different principii). Let the gentleman from Ohio, [Mr. FosTER], who seems to be the next friend of 

the Administration on this floor and of the Secretary of the Interior, 

speak for him. He comes here armed and panoplied for his defense. 

What is it he understands to be the policy the Secretary of the Interior 

is now pursuing Y I read from the remarks of Mr. FoSTER: 

Now, who are these poor, innocent, deluded. timber thieves in Colorado~ Let us see. The Atchison, Topeka. and Santa. F6 Railroad Company snedfor$100,000, the 

Colorado Central Railroad $75,000, and the Boston and Colorado Smelting Company etoo,ooo. 

Now, Mr. Chairman, these suits proceed not upon any idea that the 

defendants in these oases are guilty themselves or that they know 

the guilt of any other persons whatever, in depredating upon the public lands. Take the suit, for instance, against the Atchison and Topeka Railroad Company for $100,000. I ask the gentleman from 

Ohio [Mr. FosTER] what that suit is forT He seems to be posted on this subject. I suppose it must be for timber alleged to be taken 

from the public lands for the making of cross-ties. He nods his 

bead. · Mr. :~!.,OSTER. And for other timber used for railroad purposes. 

Mr. PATTERSON, of Colorado. This railroad issued advertisements for cross-ties in t,be usual manner. Mr. HERBERT. It is stated by the gentleman from Colorado [Mr. 

PATIERSON] that this railroad company advertised in the usual way 

for cross-ties without krowing, and railroad companies do not generally know where the cross-ties they contract for come from, and this 

snit is a specimen of the suits which the Secretary of the Interior 

has brought to recover the value of timber stolen from the public 

lands. 

[Here the hammer f~ll.] 

Mr. ATKINS obtained the floor. 

Mr. PATTERSON, of Colorado. I hope the gentleman from Ten- nessee will yield his five minutes to the gentleman from Alabama to 

allow him to proceed with his remarks. 

Mr. ATKINS. I am a very accommodating man; bnt I hardly ever get the floor myself; it is said by those around me that I am a very 

modest man. I would like to yield to the gentleman from Alabama, 

but as I have the floor, I prefer to go on now. I do not propose to take any part whatever in what seems to be a controversy in rega.rd to the action of the Secretary of the Interior 

in reference to the~l3 timber depredations in the Southern States, and 

I do not conceive that the subject, as it has been thus far discussed, 

baa any applicati,m to the proposition now on hand. I do not con- ceive that this bas anything to do with the trouble that seems to exist 

in the Southern States in regard to the timber that is stolen from the 

public lands ; that is a matter for the courts to consider. 

Mr. HERBERT. I can answer the gentleman. 

MI. ATKIN~. I cannot be interrupted, as I only have :five ~inutes. 

As I have already stated these depredations are a matter for the courts 

to decide. Here is a proposition to do what' To suppress trespasses 

on the public lands. Nothing else. Now, Mr. Chairman, in the first 

place, away back in 1851 the Government employed what were called 

timber agents, but those timber agents proved to be inefficient for the 

purpose. Again, in 1855, the then Commissioner of the General Land 

Office, Mr. Hendricks, issued a circular stating that it was almost impossible to suppress these timber depredations. 

Under the circular compromises were made with the depredators, 

and what is called the stumpage system was inaugurated. Under 

that stumpage system a very great many millions of dollars' .worth 

of public timber was lost to the Government. That was the co:ndition of this matter when it became necessary to change the system. 

The system was changed by detailing clerks, not appointing agents, 

not appointing men who were not connected with the Department, 

but by simply detailing clerks of the Interior Department to go down 

into the Southern States, to go into the Northwestern States, to go 

upon the eastern slope of the Rooky Mountains and upon the Pacific 

coast, to go to the region of the Red River of the North, and wherever 

there is timber land, for the purpose of detecting trespasses upon the 

public lands. 

Now I say that these clerks, detailed for the purpo e, have nothing 

to do except to detect these depredations or trespasse8 and to report 

them to the Secretary of the Interior. After that is done they come to the legal proceedings of which the gentleman from Mississippi 

[Mr. HooKER] has so eloquently spoken in this House on two or three 

occasions. This appropriation is simply to pay the expenses of the 

clerks of the Interior Department while going all over the country 

to detect trespasses upon the public lands. 

Mr. HOOKER. Will the gentlemanMr. ATKINS. No, sir. It is not for the purpose of emp1oying lawyers; it is not for the purpose of paying connsel--

[Here the hammer fell.] 

The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman has expired. 

Mr. EDEN. I will take the :floor, and yield my time to the gentle- man from Tennessee, [Mr. ATKINs.] 

Mr. ATKINS. I thank the gentleman. This is not for the purpose 

of employing lawyers or marshals or anything of that sort. 

Mr. HOOKER. Is there any law for itT · Mr. ATKINS. Yes. sir. 

Mr. HOOKER. Point it out. 

Mr. ATKINS. I will, with the greatest plea.sure. I will give the 

gentleman an authority which he will not deny. I ask the Clerk to 

read an extract from Mr. Hendricks's circular, published in 1855, 

setting forth the duties of the persons appointed for the purposes set 

forth in the cironlar. 

The Clerk read as follows : 

That yon may understand the nature of this part of your duties, your n.ttention 

is directed to the following: . First. Attorney-General Wirt, in an opinion of the 27th May, 1821, holds as follows: 

"Independent of positive legislative provisions, I apprehend that, in .relation to 

all property, real or personal, which the United States are authorized by the Constitution to hold, they have all the civil remedies, whether for the prevention or re- dress of injuries, which individuals possess. (See 3Wheaton, 181.) So the United 

States. being authorized to accept and to hold these lands for the common good, must have all the le~! BJeans 6f protecting the property thus confided to them that 

individuals enjoy in J.i.Ke cases. * * * They are therefore, in my opinion, entitled to the injunction of wa.<>te by way of prevention, and to the action -of trespass by way of punishment, in like manner as individuals similarly situated ru·e entitled to them." 

Second. Attorney-General Taney. now Chief-Justice of the United States, in an opinion of 22d of August, 1833, citu1 this opinion of Mr. Wirt and concurs in it. 

Mr. ATKINS. There is tho opinion of Attorney-General 'Virt, ef 

Attorney-General Taney, afterward Chief-Jnsth!eof the United·States, 

and Attorney-General Mason concurred in the opinion. WiU the gentleman attempt to say upon this floor that that is not high legal 

authority f 

Now let me call the attention of gentlemen to tbis proposition: 

this appropriation is not for the purpose of conducting lawsuits; it 

is not for the purpose of paying judicial officers; it is simply for the 

purpose of detailing clerks from the Department to detect these depredations upon the public timber. 

Now one word more; I want to sa,y that I do not believe it has 

been the policy of the Government heretofore or is now under any 

administration of the Government-! repeat that I do not believe it 

has been the policy of this Government under any administration to 

oppress the poor man, as the gentleman from Colora<Io [Mr. PATFERSO.N] would seem to have insinuated yesterday. Yon willfi.nd all 

through the reports of the land commissioners that they have favored 

the poor men of the country in permitting them to take timber from 

tho public lands, for the purpose of improving their farms, building 

their houses, constructing their school-houses, erecting bridges, and 

things of that kind. 

And I wish to say further right here that the purpose of the Government under every administration has been. to bring to justice the 

large corporations, the wealthy companies who have banded themselves together to commit depredations upon the public timber to the 

extent of millions and perhaps hundreds of millions of dollars. That 

is the truth of the matter. 

Mr. HOOKER. Will the gentleman allow me to interrupt him for 

amomenti 

Mr . .ATKINS. Certainly. 

Mr. HOOKER. I want to know whether there is any statute law 
1576 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. M.AROH 7, 

that authorizes the Secretary of the Interior to take the clerks from 

his Department and send them out for the purpose of detecting depredations on the public lands. 

Mr. ATKINS. I have answered that question by the record which was read from the Clerk's desk ; that is an ample answer to the gentleman. 

Now I want to say one word more. The amount of money that will 

be eX'pended under this appropriation for the purpose of sending clerks 

to the Southern States to detect depredations upon the public timber 

will be a mere bagatelle compared with the amount that will be re- quired to send .clerks for the same purpose to the Northern and Northwestern States and to the Pacific coast. We have to-day upon our Canadian frontier and upon the Red River of the North the most valuable timber ·land. And to-day they are building a railroad on the 

Canadian line and taking their timber from the public lands. They 

have large contracts for furnishing timber to the railroad company, 

they have saw-mills, and they are opening a canal there to-day that 

will drain two hundred and fifty miles of territory which is covered 

with this timber on the Canadian frontier, and they are constructing 

the railroad ef the timber taken from the public lands. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

The CHAffiM.AN. The time of the gentleman has expired. 

Mr. DURHAM. I rise now for the purpose of obtaining some limit 

to the debate upon the pending proposition. 

Mr. HOOKER. I hopo the gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. DuRHAM] having charge of this bill will not undertake to prevent mem- bers from offering amendments to and discussing the provisions of 

the bill; we are in Committee of the Whole for that very purpose. 

Mr. DURHAM. If the gentleman will listen tome for a moment--

Mr/HOOKER. If the proposition is made by the gentleman I 

hope it will be voted down. 

Mr. DURHAM. I do not want to close debate now, but I would 

suggest a limit of a half hour more for debate; that will give six 

gentlemen five minutes each. If that is not consented to, then I will move that the committee rise in order that the House may make some limit to the debate. 

Mr. PAGE. I think that would be satisfactory. 

Mr. JONES, of Alabama. I think that will be long enough. 

Mr. DURHAM. I ask unanimous consent that such an understanding may: be now had. ~1r. HOO'KER. I hope the gentleman will name a longer time, or I shall object. 

Mr. DURHAM. I move, then: that the committee rise for the purpose of limiting debate . . l\!r. HOOKER. I hope we Ahall vote down that motion. 

Mr. DURHAM. I hope not. 

Mr. PAGE. I ·trust that the gentleman from .Mississippi [Mr. 

Hoou:ER] will withdraw his objection. . The motion that the committee rise was agreed to; there being 

ayes llG, noes 43. 

The committee accordingly rose; and .Mr. FRANKLIN having taken 

the chair as Speaker pro tempore, .Mr. PoTIER reported t.hat the Committee of tho Whole on the state of the Union bad had under con- sideration the bill (H. R. No. ;U02) authorizing tho Secretary of the 

Treasury to employ temporary clerks, and malring an appropriation 

for the same; also making appropriations for detecting trespass on public lands, and for bringing into market public lands in certain 

States, and for other purposes; and bad come to no resolution thereon. 

1\lr. DURHAM. I move that when the tlouse shall again resolve 

itself into Committee of the Whole for the further consideration of 

the pending bill all debate upon the pending section and amendments thereto be limited to thirty minutes. 

Mr. HOOKER. I wish to inquire whether the proposition of the 

gentleman from Kentucky refers to all amendments that may be 

offered to the section or simply to the pending amendments. 

Mr. DURHAM. My motion is very plain. It is to limit all debate 

upon the section and the amendments thereto to thirty minutes. 

Mr. MA.UINNIS. Pending that motion, I move that the House now adjourn. 

The motion of .Mr. MAG~rs was not agreed to. 

The motion of Mr. DURHAl\1 to limit debate in Committee of the 

Whole was agreed to. 

Mr. DURHAM. moved to reconsider the vote just taken; and also 

moved that the motion to reconsider be laid on the table. 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

Mr. DURHAM. I now move that the House again resolve itself 

into Committee of the Whole on the pending bill. 

The motion was agreed to. 

The House accordingly resolved itself into Committee of the Whole 

(Mr. POTTER in the chair) and resumed the consideration of the bill 

(H. R. No. 3102) authorizing.the Secretary of the Treasury to employ 

temporary clerks, and making an appropriation for the same; also, 

makiJlg appropriations for detecting trespass on public lands, and for 

bringing into market public lands in certain States, and for other 

purposes. 

Mr. PAGE rose. The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Alabama, as the Chair un- derstands, withdraws his amendment, and the gentleman from California [Mr. PAGE] rises to renew it. 

Mr. PAGE. Mr. Chairman, the <1iscnssion of this question during 

the last three or four days has been in my judgment prodnctive of 

good. The Congress of the United States is responsible to the country 

for not having provided some law by which the people could obtain 

title to some of the timber lands of the Government. Under the act 

of 1834 every person who enters upon any of the public timber lands 

and outs a stick of timber, even for fire-wood, is guilty of a trespaSB 

upon the public lands. I know of my own knowledge that the attention of the Committee on Public Lands has been called to thi!i subject 

time after time. I myself have had the honor to present and advocate before that committee bills for the purpose of giving the people 

of this country an opportunity to purchase these lands at a fair price; 

and it is a disgrace to the American Congress that no action has been 

taken on this subject. It is because of the ni~gardly policy advocated by the Committee on Appropriations in refusing money for the 

surveys of the public lands 'that the people of this country are harassed almost to death by being arrested and brou_!!ht before the United 

States courts and made liable to heavy fines and imprisonment. 

The provisions of the bill on this subject apply not only to people of 

Mississippi or the South, but a.lso to the people of California. I am opposed to the principle'!! involved in this legislation which provides 

for a system of spies and informers to vex and oppress the poor people of the country. Those who are compelled to have this timber are willing and able to pay for it, but there is no way in which they can obtain title to it. The pre-emption and homestead laws of the coun- try absolutely prevent persons from obtaining titles to these timber 

lands or settling upon them. Congress has passed a law throwing open 

the mineral lands of the country, which are no more valuable than 

these timber lands, to occupation and purchase, while timber lands are excluded. They are not surveyed, and I say that under no existing law can any citizen of the United States obtain title to any of them. 

I remember that in the Forty-third Congress a bill was passeu at the 

instance of the importers of the country abolishing the system of moieties and spies and informers with reference to the import trade of the 

country. But that same system is to be carried out in regard to Government timber lands under the present provision, which contemplates the authorizing of spies and informers to harass men who are compelled to take this timber, but who would gladly pay for it if the 

Congress of the United States would pass a law under which they 

could do so. [Here the hammer fell.] 

M.r. HERBERT. 1\Ir. Chairman, when interrupted in my former 

remarks by the falling of the gavel, I had just said that if the plaintiff recovered in that suit aooainst the railroad company the result 

might be and probably would be that recovery would be had for the 

full value of the timber, although the road had once paid in full for 

it in good faith. Now the system of the Secretary of the Interior is 

to pursue the property of the Government in whosever hands and in 

whatever condition it may be fonnd. If a verdict is recovered ag~inst 

the railroad company for $100,000, how much will the United States 

make and how much will it have lost f The timber, growing, was worth perhaps not more than $5,000 at the utmost. The railroad 

company has paid $100,000 for it in good faith, and yet the policy 

of the Secretary of the Interior is to make that railroad company, 

perhaps an innocent party, pay again the money it has once already paid. And how will he do itT Why, no prosecutions what- ever are urged or instituted against the men who really cut timber on the public lands. They will in all probability be macle the wit- nesses. They will get their two dollars or two and a half a day for 

going before the courts and testifying they delivered the property 

to the railroad company, which paid in good faith for it. Now we begin to understand, why it is and how it is the gentleman from 

Ohio, [Mr. FosTER,] if this appropriation of $30,000 is made, states 

that the Secretary of the Interior would perhaps be able to put a million dollars in the Treasury of the United States. Is that what he 

calls punishing thieves 7 Who are the sufferers in a case of this kind f 

The owners of the railroad, the stockholders, hundreds and perhaps 

thousands of miles away, are made to suffer because the Secretary of 

the Interior, by a policy which he has invented and pursues, strives 

in this way to put a million <lollars into the Treasury of the United 

States. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

1\!r. PAGE. I withdraw my amendment. 

Mr. TOWNSEND, of New York. I renew it . .Mr. Chairman, I am entirely opposed to the principles involved in this section. I might 

not object if it were an original question, but I have high authority 

for taking the course I do. Down in Goldsborough, in tlle State of 

North Carolina, one of my northern friends was traveling, and one morning an old uncle came along by the c~rs in which he was riding, 

and which were there stopping for refreshments, with a. covered basket. Ilc opened it carefully and offered a finely dressed chickP.u for 

sale. My friend said, in a low tone, "Uncle, where did you get that 

chicken¥" Said he, "Is you a northern manY" "Yes." "And a friend of the cullud manT" "Yes." "Well, den, don't you nebber ax dat question agin.'' [Laughter.] 

Now, I am a friend to the gentleman from Colorado and his con- stituents; I am a friend to the gentlemen from Mississippi and their 

constituents : I am a friend to the gentleman from California and his ~onstituents; and I want to say to the Secretary of the Interior, 

''Don't you ever ask where that timber came from again." [Laughter.] 
1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1577 

Mr. HOOKER. Mr. Chairman, I desire to say, in reference to the 

amendment offered by the gentleman from Alabama and now pending to this section of the bill, that I think it ought to be stricken out 

for one real!lon if for no other, and that is when yon come to examine 

critically the second section of the bill you will find it embraces an appropriation in bulk of $2~,000 for the followin~ eig.ht differe~t purposes, namely: First, for diagrams; s~cond, for f~rmtnre; tht!d, for 

repairs in the General Land Office; fourth, for IDlSceUaneous Items; 

:fifth, for actual expenses of clerks detailed to investigate fraudulent 

land entries; sixth; for trespa,ases on the public lands; seventh, for cases of official IDIScondnct ; and, eighth, for advertising and telegraphinO'; and I say this section of the bill is faulty and defective m the f:ct that there is no power or authority which this Honse can possess over the Secretary of the Interior in appropriating ~his $20,000 

for any of the purposes enumerated or all of them. When I asked 

the distinguished chairman of the Committee on Appropriations for 

the law which authorized the Secretary of the Interior to send out 

elerks in the Interior Department for the purpose of instituting suits 

and prosecuting trespasses npon the public lands he answered me by 

referring to the opinion of Attorney-General Wirt, which simply says 

that the Government, like an individual, has aright to resort to all 

forms of snits which the law knows for the protection of the rights 

-of individuals. 

I humbly submit to the distinguished chairman that was no answer to my question. I do not care what the action is, but do yon have 

to detail a clerk from the Interior Department in order to accomplish 

itT And, if so, by what authority of law do you do it Y I undertake to 

.assert here now that the Secretary of "the Interior in detailing the 

clerk Carter from the Interior Department possessed no power or authority to do it. This man, M.A. Carter, was detailed as a clerk 

from the Interior Department, and owing to the extraordinary vigil- ance he exercised in pursuing the property of innocent people in the 

hands of innocent men his salary was advanced, as I am informed, 

from $1,400 to $1,600, while he was thus away without authority of 

law from the desk where he ought to have been doing his service to 

the Government. And so, on the other hand, there is no power in 

the Secretary of the Interior to do this thing. You have your attorneys in the district; you have your agents there. If you choose to 

.appoint them permanently for taking charge of the Government busi- ness under the authority of law yon may do it. But there is no power 

.of law, no authority in the Secretary of the Interior, to detail the 

clerks appointe1l to do the Government work in order to institute 

suits in regard to the destruction of the public property. It is utterly 

without authority of law, and the ~wer of the chairman of the com- mittee is no answer to my inquiry. 

[Here th~ hammer fell.] 

Mr. MAGINNIS. Mr. Chairman, I only participate in this debate on behalf of the people of the Territory I represent. I do not care what becomes of the amendment and certainly have no desire to 

thwart any wish of the Commissioner of Public Lands, a gentleman 

for whom I have friendship and re8pect. But if, aa bas been stated, 

the object of this appropriation is to appoint agents who will give 

the Secretary information in regard to depredations on timber-lands 

in the Territories, I tell the House it is unnecessary. That information can be more cheaply obtained. The Secretary knows, and the 

Congress bas often been told, and the fact bas never been questioned, 

that from the one hundredth meridian to the crest of the Sierra Nevadas there is not a bouse o,r a fence or a wooden structure of any 

hlnd, from the largest quartz-mill to the toothpicks on the tables, 

that is not made out of timber cut on the public lands. We have 

often stated the fact here in urging Congress to legislate on this subject1 and I now state it again, that there is not one man who lives in 

that country who either cuts wood, manufactures lumber, or purchases it from those who do, but is in some shape, according to the 

Secretary's notion, a depredator on the timber-lands of the United 

States. 

But before gentlemen in their virtuous indignation class those hardy 

settlers, those builders of cities, those founders of empires, as timber 

thieves, let them consider the conditions under which we settled that 

country and the circumstances under which we have resided there. 

Not many years ago that country was borne upon your maps as a useless and inhospitable desert. At the time when your greenbacks were down to zero and your credit in extrenti8 the precious metals were discovered there. By the creation of territorial governments, 

by the passage of your mineral laws, by the extinction of Indian 

tit.les, by the encouragement of public officials, miners were encour- aged to go there, to develop the country, to produce the precious metals to strengthen your national credit, and, as one of the Presidents saiu, to open the strong-box out of which the national debt 

might be paid. 

The people who went into those mountains found a peculiar con- dition of things. The valleys on which homestead and pre-emption 

settlements could be made were broa<l, open, arid prairies, needing 

water to lle turned on them to give life to the arid soil. The timber 

was all in the rugged mountains where locations could not be made. 

But every farmer, every miner, every resident of the country had to 

have timber. There was no alternativo but to leave the country; and 

under such regulations as have been made they obtained it. And 

the policy of tbe Government and customs of the country were well 

settled. Timo and again have we applied for legislation to let us buy timbtr lands, but Congress has been slow to move. The timber 

lands are not even surveyed. There is no possible means by wlrich 

they can. be p~chased. The Government holds t~e woodlands, and 

the Territory mcreased the extent of the forests by active measures for the suppression of fires. One fire in the mountains will destroy more wood than has been nsed by all the settlers since the discovery 

of my Territory. ~or we did discover and develop and civilize it, 

else neither timber agents, nor land officers, nor surveyors-general 

would have ever risked their scalps there. For all that, we wanted 

to buy the timber lands or wanted some well-re~ated stumpage 

law. We were anxious to obey all just laws and willing to obey any 

laws, but we had none but the customs of the country. Raids had 

been made from time to time in other Territories but none in ours. The well-settled policy of the Land Office was that so long as no wood was cut for export or trade, but all used for domestic purposes, no prosecutions would be instituted. At the beginning of this winter, without any notice that the policy of the Department was to be 

changed, orders were sent by the Secretary of the Interior to seize 

all the wood cut for the t-own of Helena. Winter was coming on. Telegrams were exchanged. It was evident that if persisted in great 

suffering and hardship and riots would ensue ; and the wood was finally released upon the payment of the outrageously exorbitant 

charge of 1 per cord for settlement; and all the remonstrances that 

the people or their Delegate could make failed to obtain a reduction. 

On the contrary, the order which at first applieu to wood-dealers at 

Helena was extended to the whole Territory, and all the mills, mines, 

and mountains were visited. Nor was it against mill companies nor railroads that it was enforced. My desk is covered with papers con- taining the notices of seizures of ten, fifteen, and twenty cords, 0ases 

where collections will not pay the cost of advertisements or the 

fees of officials. A dollar a cord has been added to the price of wood 

and 2 to the price of lumber throughout the Territory; and it is in 

small sums like these that the amount credited to my Territory was wrung from the necessities of the people. Gentlemen talk about 

writs or modes of procedure. In our country there were no writs. 

The marshal seized everything, nor troubled himself about the formalities of law. Proceedings are high-handed in the Territories. 

Even our courts are apt to get their law from the powers that grant 

their commissions, and the order of a Department is more potential 

with a dependent judiciary than the statutes on your books. But to 

all this the people submitted; not as criminals, for they were pursuing 

their occupations under the tenure of their settlement in the country; 

under the regulations and by the tacit consent of many Secretaries, 

including my friend from Ohio, [~Ir. Cox.] And it was to them and 

to myself an astounding thing when this obsolete statute was dug up 

from obscurity and enforced with a hardship and rigor that, if persisted in, must depopulate, not only our Territory but all the Territories, unless Congress steps in with some legislation; and we have 

tried so often in vain to get some legislation to allow people to get 

timber legally that we are almost discouraged. In its absence what are we to dof 

If the Secretary persists in the policy that he has inaugurated, it 

is simply a notice to the people of the Territories to quit; for all the 

mines from the Black Hills to California to shut down ; to stop the 

developments of the West and the reclamations of the desert lands, 

and to let the grass grow in the streets of the thriving Western cities; 

to stop the emigrant on his way to make a new home with a notice 

posted on every road to the West trPrivate premises of the Department of the Interior. No trespas~ing on these grounds." 

Now, Iaskyonif it is asonndpolicytostopthe twenty-five thousand 

people who, in Montana, are, by the pursuit of laborious and hazard- OilS occupations, adding to your stock of precious metals $5,000,000, or the five hundreu thousand who, in all the Territories and mining 

States, are producing 70,000,000 a year Y Do yon want to bring 

these people in from their productive inuustries and add them to 

the great army of tra!fips who crowd your highways or the laborers 

who cry in vain for work and bread in your overcrowded cities Y If 

so, yon will only have to persist in your refusal and neglect to give us proper legislation and encourage the Secretary of the Interior in 

the oppressive and ill-advised policy which he has pursued in my 

Territory. 

It is not pleasant for us to say this. The gentlemen who are forced 

to say these things here to-day are naturally fr-iends of the Department of the Interior and supporters of the land laws and the Land 

Office, and only harsh and arbitrary measures could force us into 

opposition or even criticism. 

Our land laws and our land system w~re created by great, broadmuscled statesmen, and the Department was organized with a particular view to the development of the country and the extension of 

civilization on our Western frontier. Any policy oppressive to the 

Western settler is essentially un-American and contrary to the genius 

of our institutions and the ideas of our people. Its enforcement may 

reduce the army of so called "depredators" on the public lands, but 

it will vastly increase the army of misery and suffering and poverty which besieges your cities and batters at your doors. 

Mr. CORLETT. In this connection and at this point I wish to call 

the attention of the committee to a feature of this matter which it seems to me has been overlooked in the discussion so far. I will read 

from the last report of the Secretary of the Interior to show what 

policy he proposes to pursue in the future with reference to this question. He says : 

It is for this reason that I ba>e directed that the stumpage system hitherto pre-
1578 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. MARCH 7, 

vailing be discontinued. For the same reason I withhold my approval from every 

oompromise which m>uld permit the logs seized to pass into the possession of the 

depredators with any chance of profit: and I insist upon the current market price of the logs at the place where they are held. 

In this same report the Secretary says further: 

Other complaints came from some of the mining States and Territories, setting 

forth that, the majority of their lands not having been surveyed nor being adapted to agriculture, and the timber lands not being open to purchase, the people of tho e Stat~s and Territories cannot obtain the timber neQessary for their minin~ operations and smelting-works, nor even fuel for their homes, nnless they take it from 

the public lands. And this complaiRt is certainly entitled to consideration. 

Now, let us inquire how it is that the people in the Tenitories have come to take this timber from the public lands and thus subject themselves to the charge of being "timber thieves." Commissioner Edmunds in 1864, in his annual report, provided a system known as the 

stumpage system, whereby persons might go upon the public lands, 

especiaJly in the Territories, and take timber thereon upon making 

certain payments therefor. That stumpage system has continued up 

to the present time nearly, and under it, with the sanction of tho 

Government and under the construction which the Government itself 

has thus put upon tho acts of Congress, large industries, requiring 

considerable capital and affording employment for labor, have been 

built up in the Territories in obtaining this timber from the public 

lands and making such use of it as the local demands of our people 

require. And now, if the Secretary of the Interior is allowed to 

change the policy of the Government in dealing with this question 

in the manner which is suggested in his annual report to the President, yon simply permit him to confiscate the property which has 

been accumulated and break down the industries that have been 

built up nuder a practice adopt.ed by the Government itself. I say 

that is unjust. I say that the people of the Territory of Wyoming are perfectly willing to pay for all timber taken by them from the 

public lands and are willing to pay what it is reasonably worth. 

But they are riot willing to be stigmatized as thieves for taking 

timber from the public lauds when it is confessed on all hands that 

their situation is such that they must have this timber for domestic 

and local use or abandon the country. Neither are they willing, 

after having conformed to .the regulations prescribed by the United 

Stat.es through its high official servants and after having e tablished 

themselves in business under a practical construction of the laws of 

the United States, accepted by its own agents for years without 

question, to see that business broken down because with the incoming of new lords there must be new laws, or rather new constructions 

placed upon old laws. And I say for the people of Wyoming Territory that no man on this floor has a right, in view of the circum- stances I have endeavored to relate as to former action of the Interior 

Department regarding this timber business, to denounce them as thieves. Whatever timber they have taken from the public lands 

has been with at least the tacit consent of the owner of the timber 

and by reason of a necessity which everybody recognizes, even the 

Secretary of the Interior, as I shall show from his annual report. 

No, sir; the people whom I have the honor to represent here, (if I 

may iay that I represent anybody in being permitted to sit here and see their interests affected and voted up or voted down by others 

who ba ve little sympathy and less concern for their welfare,) although 

without political consequence in the scheme of this Government, are an active, intelligent, and industrious people, and upon the score of 

honesty I do not hesitate to say are the peers of any man here or elsewhere. Whatever of the property of the Government they take 

they are willing to pay for, under the rule which the Government 

itself has prescribed, and by means of which they have been led to 

engage .in branches of business requiring the use of this timber. 

They have heretofore paid whatever the Government demanded for 

its timber with as much alacrity and cheerfulness as could be ex- pected in view of the fact that the agents of the United States cellected this stumpage in an irregular, partial, and arbitrary manner. Mr. FOSTER. How much does the Government get out ·of it Y 

Mr. CORLETT. I am unable to say. I can say this: wherever 

the Government exacted stumpage, it obtained it. I know moreover the practice of the Government was such that it was only fitfully and 

spasmodically enforced. That was the trouble, but the people were in no wise responsible for the failure to collect its stumpage in every 

instance. 

There is no other trouble in reference to it at all, and I say under 

these circumstances that to ·stigmatize the people of the West especially as timber thieves is simply monstrous and unjust. What they 

have done and continue to do is simply to act under the construction 

of the law which the Department of the Government itself has adopted 

and enforced, as will be seen by reference to the annual report of Commissioner Edmunds, made in l f;64, and to which I have already alluded. 

The matter is plainly stated in this report. I will read from it : 

Where land settled and pre-empted is destitute of timber, in that case the party 

must, e:t: necessitate, be permitted to take timber from the mountain slopes, but 

solely for domestic use, otherwise Nevada plains would be unsettled. 

Should parties file for monntainous lands not fit for cultivation in order to cut and sell the timber, the register and receiver are directed, to cause it to be seized 

ami sold, for by so doing they would to some extent protect mill-owners from the 

&actions of speculators. 

Ptn'Sons who lmve invested in saw-mills and are r eaping large profits from the neces ities of the settlers must pay a reasonable tarift" por one thousand feet of timber sa well as stumpage, sa.y not less than one-sixth tho value per one thousand feet 

of the manufactured lumber at the mill. Thls woulcl be moderate in view of the 

!!!'eat demand for timber in the Territory, and but consistent with honest principles that a ccmpensatory return shoulu be made for the timber. 

In order to effect snch an aiTangement, the land officers are authorized to consult 

the United States district attorneys as to the best mode of securing a revenue from 

the timber payable quarterly on each and every thousand of feet sawed at the re- spective mills or used as cord-wood, hewn timoer, or other description of timber, on a sworn statement of the number of feet taken. Should the " mill " owners, "cord· wood," ''hewn timber," or "other timber" holders refuse to enter into such 

stipulations, the register and receiver are directed to advise them that the timber 

is public property and liable to seizure, and where the negotiation with them is not sat~actory, the regist~r and receiver must promptly seize any timber cut upon the public landS. 

The policy pursued has been quite efficient in mitigating the evil, and that, too, not only without any cost to the Government, but leaving the avails of seizure in 

the Treasury of over $10,000. • 

* * * * * * '-t 

Similar practice was afterward authorized in the Territory of Utah. 

This practice of collecting stumpage became nniversal, and on my coming into 

office, June 26, 1876, I fonnd that it was uniformly the custom in all parts of the 

United States and Territories where there was timber growing upon the public 

lands and it so continued nntil the attention of the Department wa.s called to it, 

and the acting Secretary of the Interior, under date of July 17, 1876, directed that 

the local officers bo required to obtain the approval of the Department before com- promising any case. .A.s indicated in the quotation made from the report of 1864, 

and from other information in possession of this office, the cutting and removal of 

timber appears to have been, m many cases, by previous 2:greement with the offi. 

cials. 

Now, I say nuder that practice I know that the local laud office in 

Wyoming Territory furnished the people engaged in the timberbusiness in the various parts of the Territory with a blank schedule 

upon which to make a return of the timber taken by them respect- ively from the public lands to such local land office, in order that 

the amount due as the tax to the Government for such timber might 

be collected. And these acts of the local land offices I know were ratified by the Interior Department, because it for years received this 

stumpage tax from the local land officers and turned it into the United 

States Treasury. Now, what I complain of in the proposed action of 

the Secretary of the llnterior is not his zeal to protect the Government he serves and secure for it what belongs to it. I honor andrespect him for his fidelity to the Government whose servant he is. li 

have no sympathy with the would-be plunderers who are snapping 

at his heels because he is a barrier in their way. What I do com- plain of is this : that in this matter the Secretary in his zeal to protect the Government is, if he canies out literally the policy he foreshadows, in danger of losing sight of the rights of individnalu hy 

subjecting them to a grievous wrong in consequence of the former 

official action of his predecessors in the same Department of the Government. 

It is unjust to change thus abruptly the policy of the nation-at 

least so far as the people of the Territories are concerned-and en- force the new and rigorous rule the Secretary of the Interior now prescribes. 

The further to illustrate and enforce what I have said, I read again 

from the Secretary's annual report : 

The enforcement by this Department of the policy above stated has called forth remonstrance from several parts of the country where seizures were made. Lumber merchants, saw-mill owners, and timber operators in some of the timber districts complained that private property had been or was apt to be seized, together 

with logs wrongfully taken from the public lands of the United States, and that, 

by the proceedfugs carried on busine s in certain localities would be severely injured and many laboring peopie put out of work. The agents of this Department are instructed to use the utmost care in respecting private property; and, as far as the Department is informed, those instructions have, a. very few trifling and 

promptly corrected mistakes excepted, been strictly obeyed. As to the injury done to business, if that business consist.s in wrongfully taking timber from the publiclands of the United States and manufacturing it into lumber and selling it, it i& 

just the business which it is the duty of this Department to suppress for the protection of the public interest. 

Other complaints came from some of the mining St.<ttes and Tenitories, settinj!; 

forth that the majority of their lands not having ueen surveyed nor being adapted to agriculture, aml the timber lands not being open to purchase, the people of those 

States ancl Territories cannot obtain the timber necessary for their mining operations and smelting-works, nor even fuel for their homes, unless they take it from 

the public lands. This complaint is certainly entitled to Ct>nsideration, and, with 

due regard for the equities of the case, the Department has abstained from all criminal prosecutions and caused seizures to be made or suits commenced only where 

timber hacl been taken from the publio lands in large quantities for sale to railroad 

companies or smelting-works, or the supply of the market on a larp;e scale. In 

such cases, also, tho plea bas been made that railroad-ties, building-timber, and fh·e· 

wood for rnnning smelting-works coultl not be obtained in any other way, except 

from a great distance at large expense. This is true; but it is also true ihat those 

who have supplied themselves, without authority of law, from the public landsshould at least beheld to pay a fair price for the property so taken, M that kinu of 

property must be paid for elsewhere, and for this the Department affords them an opportnnity until by proper legislation they are enabled to obtain the nece ary 

supply of timber and fire-wood in a legal way. 

The report states that" those who supply themselves with timb.er 

without authority of law should be held to pay a fair price for it." 

But what is a fair price? Is it fair to exact the full va,lue of the 

timber wherever it may happen to be found, and thus deprive the man who has added to its original value the value of his own labor 

in getting it into marketaule condition and in transporting it to 

market This great Government can never afford to rob labor in 

that sort of way, and should the Secretary of the Interior have tlJe e "sinews of war'' placed in his hands, I trust a sense of justice and 

fair play will induce him to make a humane and reasonable use of his 

power so far as the people for whom I speak are concerned. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. DURHAM. I desire in the last five minutes allowed for de bat& 

to call the attention of the Honse to the real point in issue. In an- swer to my friend who has just taken his seat and my good friend 

from Montana, [Mr. 1\f.AGL."\fNNS,] who say that the settlers in tbe 'l'or-
' ' 

1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1579 

ritories are in danger of being prosecuted under some new rule of the 

administration, I will say that I am reminded by a friend who addressed the committee a while ago that the law in existence is to be 

found in sections 6 and 7 of the report of the Secretary of the Interior, 

which! will ask the Clerk to read, and read hastily, to show how com- pletely these actual settlers are protected in all their rights upon these 

lands. The Secretary of the Interior is enforcing those two provisions as rigidly now as he did one year after they were enacted. I now ask the Clerk to read what I send up to the desk and the House ~o 

pay attention to it. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

Si..'i:th, In the enforcement of the said act of 1831 yon should be careful not to interfere with pre-emption rights under the act of 4th September, 1841, the settler, 

with .a view to cultivation, having the right, aa hereinbefore indicated, to n~e or destroy trees in clearing roads and constructing bridges or for any other purpose 

connected with the improvement of his homestead; and 

Seventh. While thus liberal to the honest settler yon should be vigilant to detect 

and arrest the speculator, who, in the guise of a settler and under the sanction of a declaratory statement, may contemplate the spoliation of timber, and unless 

arrested might seriously injure the public interest. 

Mr. DURHAM. Now I undertake to say that I would like to know 

where these settlers are deprived of their rights. 

Mr. CORLETT. Will the gentleman allow me to ask him a question' 

Mr. DURHAM. Pardon me ; I did not interrupt you. I undertake 

to say that the gentleman cannot show an instance where the Secretary of the Interior proposes to depart from those rules. 

Mr. WILLIAMS, of Oregon. If the gentleman will allow me I think 

I can give him a piece of information in relation to that. 

Mr. DURHAM. It is not necessary. I remembervery well the instructions I bad read the other day in which the bounds within which 

these agents are to operate and outside of which they cannot go are defined. Now, having exp1'tined that, the only issne before the House 

is whether we will appropriate money enough to employ clerks or agents to protect the timber upon public lands. 

Now, my friend says this is an unheard-of appropriation. In re- sponse to the gentleman from Colorado, [Mr. PATIERSON,] :m.d for 

the benefit also of my friend from Mississippi, [Mr. HoOKER,] and 

for the information of the committee, I will state that there are six 

different acts making appropriation for matters of this kind, for the 

employment of clerks; and for what Why, to find ont depredations 

npon timber on the pnblic lands. 

Now, the gentleman from MississiJ;!pi [Mr. HOOKER] very eloquently 

discoursed about the expending of$22,000 while we are reaping only 

"'29,000. I did not want to spoil the beautiful speech of my friend, 

but if I had read one extract from the Report of the Commissioner of 

tho Land Office it would have shown the gentleman where the error in his argument was. . I would state that from 1866 to 1876 there was covered into the 

Treasury 199,998.50 w bile the expenses of detecting these depredations 

only amounted to $45,000, leaving a clear profit to the Government of 

152,000. 

Mr. HOOKER. What period of time did that coverT 

Mr. DURHAM. What was referred to bythe gentleman from Mississippi occurred sinc.e Jnly, 1877, to the present time. 

Mr. HOOKER. But I ask what period of time does the gentleman's 

statement cover Y 

Mr. DURHAM. A period of ten years. 

Mr. HOOKER. The gentleman stated that the expenditure was only $2'2,000. 

Mr. DURHAM. Certainly; and that there was covered into the 

Treasury nearly $90,000. 

I will state that there are now suits pending for more than a million dollars) worth of property, and partly in the gentleman's own State. That is all I have to say about it, and I now call for a vote. 

Mr. HOOKER. They have not recovered a dollar and they never will. 

Mr. WILLIAMS, of Oregon. I would like to state to the gentleman w by the instructions he bas had read do not apply to the instances 

cited from Wyoming and Montana, and it is because they are prairie 

countries. 

Mr. DURHAM. I cannot yield to the gentleman, and I call for the 

regular order. 

The CHAIRMAN. The five minutes of the gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. DURHAM] have expired. There is one minnte left of the 

thirty minutes allowed for debate, and the Chair will recognize the 

gent.leman from Oregon [Mr. WILLIAMS] for that one minute. 

Mr. WILLIAMS, of Oregon. The sections of country spoken of by 

the gentleman from Montana [Mr. lliGINl\'1.8] and tho gentleman 

from Wyoming [Mr. CORLETT] are similar to Western Oregon, where 

the country is prairie except the mountain regions, which are cov- ered with timbei'. The instructions which have been read here give 

the settlers leave t,o take timber from the lands in the immediate 

neighborhood of where they have settled; but where they have to go 

from the region where they have settled in order to olltain fire-wood 

and lumber for their houses and other purposes they have no protec- tion whatever. As suggested by the gentleman from Montana, [Mr. 

MAGINNIS,] these rules if rigidly enforced would depopulate thew hole 

country. 

The CHAIRMAN. The time fixed by the HoUBe for debate on the 

pending section and the amendments thereto bas expired. 

The question was then taken upon the amendment of Mr. HERBERT, 

to strike out of section 2 in line 5 the words "trespaBSeson the public 

lands." 

The amendment was not agreed to; upon a division, ayes Z'l, noes not counted. 

Mr. HOOKER. I offer an amendment of which I gave notice awhile 

ago, and I offer it in the interest of economy, so much favored by my 

friends on this side of the House and sometimes by gentlemen on the 

other side. It is to reduce the appropriation made by this section 

from $20,000 to $10,000. The amendment wa-s not agreed to; upon a division,· ayes 21, noes not counted. 

Mr. HOOKER. I hope the Committee on Appropriations will con- sent that we may have a vote in the House upon this proposition, so that we can have the yeas and nays upon it. 

Mr. DURHAM. I propose to rely for the rights to which our com- mittee are entitled upon the rules of the House. 

The CHAffiMAN. The Clerk will read the first paragraph of sec- tion 3 of the bill. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

SEC. 3. For the necessary clerical force to enable the Commissioner of the General Land Office to carry into effect the act of Congress approved Jnne 22, 1876, for brin~g into market the public lands in the States of Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida, f2!;,000. 

Mr. PRICE. I move to amend the paragraph just read by adding 

that which I send to the Clerk's desk. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

Provided, however, That$10,000 of this snm shall be used for the purpose of em- ploying and paying clerks to keep np the records of the Land Office, :mel to furnish 

patents and certificates of title to persons entitled to the same. 

Mr. DURHAM. I raise the point of order upon that amendment 

that it is not germane to this portion of the bill. TIW appropriation 

is for a specific purpose in the Land Office. 

Mr. SPRINGER. What is to prevent the Secretary of the Interior 

from making such disposition of this money as he may desire t 

I\fr. PRICE. My amendment pertains to the business of the General Land Office, and for the protection of the people who have their 

titles in the Land Office ; and I supposed it was germane to the bill 

and entirely in order. 

I might say that there is to-day upon the table of the Commis iOI'ler. 

of the General Land-Offico any quantity almost of applications of 

parties who desire to have their titles perfected; which applications are accompanied by the money to pay for the purpose. Yet there are no clerks and no appropriation to employ clerks to enablo the work 

to be done. There are hundreds of cases where parties have deposited their money and made application for the perfection of their 

titles, to obtain certificates for their patents, aud they are not able 

to get them because there are no clerks to do the work. I supposed 

that the amendment was in order. 

Mr. DURHAM. This is a specific appropriation, under a specific~ 

act referred to in the section itself, for the purpose of putting certain 

lands into the markot. The point that I make against the amendment is that it proposes to divert a portion of this appropriation for 

the purpose of employing clerks who are not authorized by existing 

law. 

The CHAffiMAN. The Chair would inquire of the gentleman from 

Iowa [Mr. PRICE] whether his amendment is a limitation upon this 

appropriation in connection with these particular lands f 

Mr. PRICE. My intention in offering the amendment wa.s to take a part of this money for the specific purpose I have indicated. 

The CHAIRMAN. Connected with these la.nds! 

Mr. PRICE. Not with these lands. 

Mr. DURHAM. I knew the gentleman would not state that. Mr. PRICE. It is in connection with any lands in the United State~ 

where there are settlers who want their titles perfected. 

:Mr. SPRINGER. That would be a proper amendment upon a proper 

bill but not upon this. 

Mr. DURHAM. When the bill making appropriations for the Interior Department shall be under consideration the amendment would 

be in order. . The CHAIRMAN. This section proposes to appropriate the sum of 

$25,000 for the purpose of bringing into market certain public lands 

in three designated States. 'fbe amendment of the gentleman from 

Iowa [Mr. PP..ICE] proposes to divert a portion of the money (soappropriated by this section to bring these designated lands into market) 

to another purpose quite foreign to that. The Chair thinks that while 

the amendment of the gentleman from Iowa might possibly be added as an additional section to this bill, it is not germane to the particular 

section under consideration, and therefore the Chair rules the amendment out of order. 

Mr. FOSTER. I move to strike out the last word of the paragraph 

for tho purpose of controverting some statements made by the gen- tleman from New York, [Mr. Cox.] If the gentleman had read what 

immediately followed the statement of the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. RANDALL] at the time referred to, he would have found 

that the statement that the democracy bad decreased the expenses of 

the Government $30,000,000 was controverted. I stated at the time 

that I did not believe, when the books were posted, the reductions 

would be as much as they were the preceding year under a republican 

Congress. The gentleman from New York now states Ute reduction as 

-

. 
1580 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. MARCH 7, 

$30,000,000 the first year and 10,000,000 this year. Now the books are posted for the year 1877, and the actual reduction which they show is 

$19,600 000. Of this sum over $3,000,000 is due to the reduction of interest, 61,000,000 is due to a reduction in the permanent appropriations 

expended under the direction of the Secretary of the Treasury, and 

there is still to be added about $6,000,000 for deficiencies. So that 

the actual reduction made by the Forty-fourth Congress in its first 

6ession will not exceed, when the books are all closed, about 12,000,-

000. For the current year I do not believe there will be any reduction at all; the indications do not point that way now. The gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. RANDALL] made his statement in good faith. The Committee on Appropriations, under his 

lead, did reduce the appropriations; but the other extravagances of 

the House were not properly computed by him. What is this Honse 

doing to-dayf The Committee on Appropriations is economical, even parsimonious ; yet yon bring in here propositions to erect public 

buildings and you pass them; yon bring in a bill to pension the soldiers of the Mexican war-a measure that will take 7,000,000 out of 

the Treasury. In this way, when the chairman of the committee at 

the end of the year sums up his work showing that he and his com- mittee have reduced the expenditures 10,000,000, that reduction is 

all eaten up by the extravagance of this House itself. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. SPRINGER. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. 

Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) Mr. Chairman, I rise to oppose the 

amendment of the gentleman from Ohio, [Mr. FosTER.] As the gentle- man has called in question the figures which I gave to this House and 

the country at the end of the first session of the Forty-fourth Congress, 

and to which I now adhere, I feel it incumbent on me to say a few 

words. What I then asserted was exactly true : that under the appropriation bills of that session of the Forty-fourth Congress there was a saving of 30,000,000 compared with the appropriations during the 

first session of the Forty-third Congress. In other words, this Honse, 

after a strenuous contest, had succeeded in preventing the administration from having the power to spend 30,000,000 which the Fortythird Congress at its first session had given the administration the 

opportunity to spend. The gentleman from Ohio now comes in and 

by a show of figures undertakes to say that the real saving was but 

$12,000,000. I am glad that the gentleman, with all his ingenuity, is 

obliged to give us the credit of at least that reduction. But he will · find that a large part of the expenditures inclmled in his :figures did 

not arise from appropriations authorized by law during that session 

of Congress, but that the authority for those expenditures came from 

appropriations previously made and which under the general law were not covered into the Treasury until two years afterward, to say 

nothing of another law which gave the Treasury Department au- thority to spend money for contracts subsequently to the year for 

which they were made. 

I do not wish to claim for the democratic party any more than is 

exactly true. The Committee on Appropriations came into this House 

with recommendations making a reduction of 40,000,000, and the 

democratic House affirmed the same, but after three months' struggle 

in conference committees-more than thirty days upon a single billthe House was ~lOmpelled by the Senate of the United States, republican in political sentiment, to forego 10,000,000 of that reduction. 

The gentleman cannot now detract from the honor which is due to 

the democratic Honse of that period, for the present Secretary of the 

Treasury in the report which be sent to Congress at the beginning of 

this ses ion confesses that wo were 1·ight, and he has entered upon 

the duty which was assigned him of economizing in every direction. 

He even claims the merit (to which he is entitled) of falling below our appropriations in his clerical force and in other features of the 

administration of his Department. He further warns this House that we must continue in that line of economical appropriation or we shall 

be obliged to raise 11,000,000 additional by new taxation. I hope 

that the gentleman from Ohio will stand steadfastly by his fellowcitizen from the same State in these respects. He will find me at 

least, and I hope every gentleman on our side of the House, struggling 

to see which of us shall be foremost in the direction of economy. 

Let me say to the gentleman that there never was a time when 

economy was more necessary than now. This whole country and this 

whole people are distressed with burdens such as they have never known before; and, after full deliberation, I can see no other way out 

of this distress than by economy in public expenditures and economy on the part of the individual citizen. [Applause.] 

Mr. FOSTER. I wish to say only a word. All I contend is that 

the gentleman from Pennsylvania and other gentlemen claimed two 

years ago, as the gentleman from New York claims now, that they 

had reduced the expenditures to the extent of $30,000,000. 

Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) We could not reduce expenditures, 

because we had not the power to control expenditures, but we prevented in every way we could extravagant appropriations. • Mr. FOSTER. I will put you right and have tried to put you right. 

You claimed that you reduced appropriations. That is true, yet I 

charge that, while the chairman of the Committee on Appropriations 

and the Committee on Appropriations reduced appropriations, this 

extravagant democratic House was increasing them just as it did 

to-day. Now the books are posted. The year previous the republicans decreased the expenditures 16,000,000. The books are posted, too, and 

your economical democracy decreased expenditures 12,000,000. You are not the only people in the world who are entitled to credit for 

economy. My colleague [Mr. GARFIELD] is not here, and I say for 

him that his four years of chairmanship of the Committee on Appropriations were four years of successful struggle for economy on his 

part. He was followed by the gentleman from Pennsylvania, [Mr. 

RANDALL,] and here now, after two years from that struggle, I wish 

to say to the gentleman from Pennsylvania, [Mr. RANDALL,] and 

although I difiered with him yet many times I believed his efforts at 

economy were in the right direction; that but for his efforts and his 

disposition to throw stones even at the gentleman from New York in 

those times we never would have had these redp.ctions. 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman's time has expired. 

Mr. COX, of New York. I did not hear the last expression used by 

the gentleman from Ohio. 

Mr. FOSTER. I said that but for the disposition of the gentleman 

who was chairman of the Committee on Appropriations to throw 

stones even at the gentleman from New York, instead of kind words 

and tufts of grass, we never would have had this reduction. 

:Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) Will the gentleman indicate when 

he speaks :figuratively the stone l threw f 

Mr. FOSTER. You never threw tufts of grass. [Laughter.] Will 

the gentleman acknowledge he ever threw tufts of grass' 

Mr. R.A...WALL, (the Speaker.) I do not recollect of ever having 

any controversy with the gentleman from New York on the subject 

of economy. On the contrary, I think the gentleman followed steadily 

in that line. 

Mr. COX, of New York. Sometimes the gentleman led in that line. · [Laughter.] 

Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) And led well. 

Mr. COX, of New York. As to matters of salary, as to matters of 

subsidy and deficiency, as to the Paris exposition more recently, I did 

not follow, but sometimes I had occasion to lead; but I never found 

the gentleman from Ohio [Mr. FosTER] in the rear except for some bad purpose or other. [Laught-er and applaW:Ie.] 

Now, Mr. Chairman, it is a fact well known to the gentleman from 

Ohio and to the Committee on Appropriations that we are now trying 

and have been for some time, to pay up the bad debts df the republican administrations. Six millions alone in the Navy now, coming 

from 18'75-'76 in as deficiencies from time to time, under old contracts, 

made before we had power to correct. The honorable Speaker has 

given the Honse an account of the deficiencies which came down aa republican legacies into our democratic-the Forty-fourth Congress. 

He has spoken well and ably on that, as he acted during that Congress. While he was chairman of the Honse Committee on Appropriations, and I had the honor, Mr. Chairman, to sit in your place for 

forty-one days on one bill, fighting for economy, fighting for the Jeffersonian doctrine of honesty and fruuality-we never saw a vote 

taken when we ditl not find the honorab~e gentleman from Ohio some- how in :favor of extravagance. 

Mr. FOSTER. The gentleman is mistaken. 

Mr. COX, of New York. No, I am not mistaken. I know that you 

professed one thing while you practiced the other. [Laughter and 

applause.] That is what is called, with all respect to the gentleman, 

in the old English term, being clad in a wrap-rascal of hypocrisy. 

[Laughter.] I do not mean the gentleman personally had it around 

him. [Laughter.] Look at these tabular statements--

Mr. FOSTER. That saves me from saying an ugly thing. 

Mr. COX, of New York. Here are the relative forces and compensation, under estimates in this table before me, for the two Houses in 

1876 and 18i7: $146,000 estimates Senate salaries: and 200,786 for 

House estimates. How was it with the House in 1865, ten years before t The House $84,000 only, and the Senate 79,000-

Mr. FOSTER. And $30,000 more for deficiencies. ~Ir. COX, of New York. Thirty thousand dollars for what deficiencies Y What were they for 7 Twelve years of riotous expenditures by your side of the Honse and in the investigations called for 

thereby. How did the gentleman to-day vote on the investigations 

into the Departments 

Mr. FOSTER. In favor of economy. 

Mr. COX, of New York. He was in favor of economy! He voted 

against the investigations, because he would save a few dollars to 

allow thousands to go without inquiry. He voted against allowing 

examination by experts in order to let the republican administration run riot again unchecked in extravagance. Let us ~?O back to the old 

Jeffer onian doctrine. I have alwass maintained It strictly'in my 

serrice here even against the wish sometimes of my own locality. I 

learned my rule from Jefferson in his inaugural. Here, indeed, are apples of gold in pictures of silver, a sort of bimetallic wisdom, to 

which both sides of the House might well give currency. 

Still one thing more, fellow-citizensSaid Jefferson, in his inaugural addressA wise and frugal government which shall restrain men from injuring one another-

"'Wbat does that mean f It has a double sense perhaps. Jefferson was probably thinking of a fair election as the guardian genius of a. free people. He may have been looking, with prophetic ken, to some future commission to or. about Louisiana and to the gentleman from 

Ohio, [langhter]-

wbich shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry 
·-

1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1581 

and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. 

This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities. 

Splendid political science in happy phrase l When, Mr. Chairman, a few moments ago I was looking to the circle of felicity to which I 

hoped the gentleman from Ohio [Mr. FOSTER] might attain " in the 

sweet by and by," I thought perhaps he would attain it after some purgation. But since his second speech I am constrained to believe 

that while many on his side shall go to that beautiful shore, my friend 

from Ohio will be lifting up his hands in wretchedness and gnashing 

his teeth because the New Jerusalem is more economical than it ought 

to be. [Laughter.] 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) I wish to ask the gentleman from 

Ohio [:Mr. FosTER] a question in the direction of good morals and 

good administration of the Government: whether he recognizes the 

right as existing under any law by which an administrative officer can involve this Government in any deficiency f 

Mr. FOSTER. I do not. 

Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) Now, for myself I have always 

maintained that an administrative officer of this Government who 

attempted in any way to involve this Government in what is known as a deficiency of expenditure acted not only beyond the law but in 

violation of the law and was amenable to law for so doing. And the sooner that is made to be understood in this country and in this House 

then so much the sooner will we do away with deficiency bills. 

These deficiency bills, let me say here, are rather of a recent origin. 

They were never known of any amount before the war and were generalJy then asked for in anticipation of deficiencies before the expiration of the year. Bnt here we are constantly asked to make appropriations for indebtedness made in gross violation of law or asked to 

make appropriations that have been contracted for in violation of 

statutes. 

Mr. FOSTER. As the gentleman has asked me a question, I desire 

to reply. As to the way in which these deficiencies occur, take this 

Honse as an example. We are asked to-day-the Committee on Appropriations are asked for a deficiency of 30,000 for miscellaneous 

expenses. Now, there are out against that fund the warrants of some officer. 

Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) All issued improperly, every one of 

them, as I maintain. 

Mr. SPRINGER. The gentleman does not mean to say the Commissioner of the General Land Office has incurred the expenditure T 

Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) The gentleman from Ohio ia speaking of this House, and I am condemning what he refers to and saying 

that it has been done improperly. 

Mr. FOSTER. l am with you as to that. If we fail as a House to 

appropriate a sufficient sum to pay salaries, and thereby a deficiency 

occurs, I do not see how any officer of the Government is to blame for 

that. 

Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) There is no poSBible excuse for an officer violating the law in that particular. His appeal is to the legislative power. He must not take the law into his own hand, or put 

his hand· into the Treasury and take out money which the legislative 

power never directed to be taken out. . Mr. FOSTER. But if the deficiency occurred although Congress was advised that that much money had to be paid out T 

Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) Then I go a step further. The 

officer has no right to involve CongreBB or to involve the Government 

in any expenditure or any indebtedness whatever without direction 

of law. 

.Mr. FOSTER. I do not think the gentleman understands me. Over 

$1,500,000 a year are required to pay three hundred and three mem- bers. Suppose we appropriate a million dollars for that purpose and 

the proper officer the next year advises us there is a deficiency. Nobody but Congress is to blame for not making the appropriation. So 

with the employes of the Treasury Department. If we do not appropriate enough to pay the salaries there is a deficiency and no officer 

is to blame. 

Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) The gentleman can try to prove 

anything by a simile. But there is no such contingency likely to 

occur; and if it did occur the officer would not have the remedy. 

The remedy rests with Congress. 

Mr. FOSTER. Certainly. 

Mr. DURHAM. I must now interfere and ask the Clerk to read 

the next paragraph. 

The Clerk read as follows : 

For heating and gas of the building now occupied by the Pension Bureau on Pen.n.sylvania avenue, for file-cases, des"ks, printing, pension-certificates, furniture, 

carpets, ancl other things necessary in said bureau, for the present fLscal year, the sum of $!,000. 

Mr. PHILLIPS. I offer the following amendment: 

After the paragraph just rend, insert as follows : Aud for railway postal.clerks, route-agents., mall-rout messengers, and local 

agents, for the remainder of the present fi.Scal year, the sum of $15,000. 

Mr. DURH.A.M. I make the point of order on that amendment. 

Mr. PHILLIPS. I understand the Committee on Appropriations 

have agreed noon that. 

Mr. DURIIAM. We have not agreed upon that in this bill. I 

make the point of order. 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Kentucky makes the point 

of order that the amendment is not in order, and the Chair sustains 

the point of order. 

Mr. DURHAM. I am instructed by the Committee on Appropriations to offer three amendments, and I send up the first, to come in 

after line 11. 

Mr. FOSTER. I want to offer an amendment to increase the appropriation for the Commissioner of the General Land Office. 

Mr. DURHAM. Oh, we passed that long ago, and cannot go ba.ck now. 

Mr. FOSTER. The Commis~ioner says that the amount appropriated is not sufficient, and that he will have to ask for another deficiency. 

.Mr. DURHA...."\1. I ask for the reading of the amendment reported 

by the cqmmittee. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

In section 3, after line 11, insert the following: 

For printing and binding for the Post-Office Department, to be done at the Gov. ernment Printing Office, $35,000. 

Mr. DURHAM. I desire to state in explanation of this amendment 

that the blanks are about running out and that the Department needs 

$35,000 to carry on the money-order system. I will have printed in 

the REcoRD, as part of my remarks, certain papers from the Postmaster-General on the subject. 

The papers are as follows: 

PosT-OFFICE DEPA.R.l'MENT, 

Washington, D. a., January 14, 1878. 

Sm: I have the honor to submit for the consideration of the proper committee 

the accompanying statement of the account of this Department with the appropria- tion forprrnting, together with a letter from the superintendent of the blank agency and an indorsement of Hon. J. N. Tyner, First Assistant Postmaster-General, relative thereto. 

The constant increase in the number of post-offices and the extension of the 

money-order system creates a corresponding increase in the number of blanks, 

books, &c., and in the amount of printing necessary for the proper transaction of 

the bnsiness of this Department, and unless provision is made by Congress before 

the expiration of theopresent quarter serions embarrassment will ensue not only to this Department but to the public. 

Very respectfully, your obedient servant, 

Hon. SAMUEL J. RANDALL, 

Speaker House of Representatives. 

D. M. KEY, Postma~ter- General. 

POST·0FFICE DEP A.RTMENT, APPOINTMENT OFFICE, 

Washington D. a., January 12, 1878. 

Sm : I have the honor to submit hel'f.with a. statement of the amount expended for printing for this Department for the six months ended December 31, 1877. 

The item, $28,600, expended on account of the office of the First Assistant Postmaster-General embraces the blanks, books, &c., furnished by the blank agency for 

the use of postmasters ; and that of $20,528, expended on account of the Money. Order Office, includes all blanks and books reqru.red for the money-order system. The strictest economy is observed in furnishmg blanks, &c , and postmasters ud 

others in the postal service have been notified by circular and otherwise that like. 

economy must be J?racticed in the use of such supplies. • The amount available for the ensuing six months (ta5,156) will be exhausted by the close of the present quarter, March 31, and unless an additional appropriation of at least $35,000 is made before that time great embarrassment must result to theDepartment and to the postal business throughout the country. 

I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant, . 

D. W. RHODES, 

Hon. J. M. TYNER, 

Superintendent Blank Agency, Poat-Oji.u Department. 

Firat Assistant Poatmaater.General. 

Approximate statement of the condition of the app1·opriation far printing 

for th~ Post-Offwe Depa1·tment for the fiscal year ending {une 30, 1878. 

Expended on account ofOffice of Firat Assistant Postmaster·GeneraL .......•....... -...• -. . . . . . • $28, 600 

Office of Second Assistant Postmaster-General ... -.... _ •. -.... -.-- .. -.... 5, 475 

Office Third Assistant Postmaster-General..-.-.......... -.......• -...... 4, 700 

~~tJ:i~~~-:::::: :::::::::::::::: :::~-: ::::::::::::::::::: ~::::: ~: ~ Total for six months, ended December 31, 1877 .... -••.• ------ ..• ."_- f69, 844 

A ·milable for ensuing six months_ .. _ .... -...... _--..... --.. ---.... 35, 156 

Appropriation for the fiscal year ... -...... _ ....... _- .. -..•• --.... $105, 000 

Respectfully submitted, 

D. G. APGAR. 

Sta.tionery Olerk. 

Maj. D. W. RHODES, 

Superintendent Blank Agency, Poa~Ojfice Department. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

:Mr. DURHllf. I now offer the following amendment, to come in 

immediately after the amendment just adopted: 

That tbe sum of Sl)OO be appropriated to enable the Secretary of the Interior ro secure competitive plans for repairing and reconstruction of the Interior Dep~ 

ment building lately injured by fire, recommended by the Secretary of the In tenor. 

I will insert as a portion of my remarks a letter from the Secretary 

of the Interior upon the subject. 

The letter is as follows : DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, 

Washington, D. 0., JanuanJ 24, 1878. 

Srn: I have the honor to call the attention of Congress to the necessity for the 

early repair and partial reconstruction of a. portion of the Interior Department building· damap:ed by the fire of September 25, last. 

In my annual report to the President I had the honor to suggest the erection of a fire. proof roof over tile entire building and the creation of more room for the 

present and future wants of the De:partment. Also, that the Secretary of the Interior be authorized to invite competition in the submission of plans and to appoint 
1582 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. MAROH 7, 

a commission of three practical men, skilled in the nrt of building, to determine 

upon the best plan submitted. 

In pursuance of these recommendations, I have now to recommend that authority 

may be given by Congress for the expenditure of &600 for competitive plans, to be 

distributed as follows: Three hundred dollars for the plan that may be adopted; two hundred for the second best, and one hundred foT the third, the order gf merit to be (]etermined bv the commission above referred to. That the commission so selected shall receive a. compensation for their services 

of not to exceed SJ.O per dar each for the time actually employed uyon euoh duty. 

It is su~gested that all of the e~-penditures for plans and a coiiliDlSsion might be 

authoriZed by Congreas to be paid from tho proceeds of sale of old material result. 

in,!!.' from the fire. 

Should these BU,!!.'gestions meet with favorable consideration, an early appropria- tion of at least 100,000 should be made, to the end that the preparation of new material could be proceeded with as soon as plans shall have been accepted. 

Very respectfully, 

Ron. S. J. R.Al.i>ALL, 

C. SCHURZ, Secretary. 

Speaker of the House of Representatives. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

Mr. DURHAM. I offer the following amendment, to come in immediately after the one just adopted: 

For detecting and bringing to trial and punishment persons guilty of violating the internal-revenue laws or conniving at the samo, including the payment for in· 

formation and detection of such violation, 520,000, or so much thereof as may be 

necessary for that purpose, to be expended under the direction of the Commissioner 

of Internal R~venue, being a deficiency for the fiscal year ending June 30,1878. 

I submit as part of my remarks papers from the Treasury Department on the subject. · The papers are as follows : TREASURY DEPARTMENT, 

lVa.fhington, D. 0., February 23, 1878. 

Sm: I have the honor to transmit herewith for the consideration of your com- mittee copy of a letter from the Commissioner of Internal Revenue, dated the 11th 

instant, relative to the deficiency estimates for "salaries and expenses of collectors" and .. punishment for nolation of internal-revenue laws., for the fiscal year 

ending June 30, 1878, which will be found on pa~es 7 and 8 of House Executive 

Document No. 45, Forty-fifth Congress, second session. 

It appears from the inclosed letter that it is very important w the internal-revenue 

senice that the.'le deficiencies shall be provided for within the present month. 

Very respectfnlly, 

Hon.. J.D. C . .ATKINs, 

JOHN SHERMAN, Secretary. 

Ohairman Oommittee on A.ppr~ions, HO'USe of Representatives. 

TREASURY DEPARTMENT, 

Ojfice of Inte'mal. Revenue, February 11, 1878. 

Sm : I have the honor to request that you ask Congress to make the following 

appropriations, to wit : Deficiency in the appropriation for "salaries and eA-penses of collectors" for the 

year 1878, $40,000. 

Deiciency in the appropriation for "detecting and bringing to trial persons guilty 

of violating the internal-revenue laws" for the year 1878. 20,000. 

The first item, :$40,000, is embraced in your estimates of deficiencies for this year. It is very important to the internal-revenue service that these appropriations 

shall be made within the presen.t month, as provision has already been made for the 

expenditure of the appropriation for salaries and expenses of collectors for the 

year 1878, with the ex~ption of 4, 404.26, and the appropriation for " detecting and 

bringing to trial persons guilty of violating the internal.revenne laws" for this 

year is. reduced to a balance of 6,463. Unless ihe e appropriations can be passed so that they oan be used by the 1st of Ma-rch, efforts to break up the illicit manu- facture of and traffic in spirits and tobacco, that are now being pushed forward 

viRoronsly, mnst be virtuaJly suspended, and such suspension woultl be a virtual 

failure to break ul> such lllicit manufacture and traffic, and persons engaged. therein 

would lapse back mto their old practices. It is the experience of this office tha~ the violations of the internal-revenue laws 

herein mentioned can only be prevented by persistent vigilance on the part of in· 

ternal-revenue officers, and these appropnations are absolutely nP.eded for that 

purpose. Very respectfully, 

Ron. JOHN SHERMAN, 

Secretary of the TreatrUry. 

GREEN B. RAUM, 

Oommissioner. 

Mr. PHILLIPS.· I raise the point of order upon that amendment. 

Mr. FINLEY. I rise to a point of order. I submit that that is not a deficiency. 

Mr. DURHAM. I will state to the gentleman that it is a deficiency; that the appropriation made by the last Congress was not 

the amount estimated for by the Department, and this is to 8npply 

that deficiency. The committee have come to the conclusion that it 

is absolutely necessary in order to detect the frauds which are every 

day occurring in this Department. 

Mr. HUMPHREY. I thought there were no deficiencies in tbela.st 

House. 

Mr. DURHAM. Ob, yes. 

Mr. FINLEY. It provides for service in the future, and therefore 

is not a deficiency. 

Mr. HEWITT, of Alabama. It shows upon its face that it is not a deficiency. 

The CHAIRMAN. Does the gentleman from Kentucky say that it 

is authorized by lawf 

Mr. DURHAM. Yes, I do. 

Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) The practical result is this, that 

the Department haa spent in less than a year what was given to them 

to sperid in a year, and now they come here and ask for more. It is 

not by any means a deficiency. 

The CHAIRMAN. Does the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. 

RANDALL] raise the point of order upon it 7 

Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) No, sir; I do not. _ The .CHAIRMAN. Does the gentleman from Kansas withdraw his 

point of order 7 

J 

Mr. PHILLIPS. Yes sir: I withdraw it. 

The question was taken' on the amendment; and on a division 

there were-ayes 126, noes 54. • So the amendment wa.s agreed to. 

Mr. FINLEY. I desire to give notice that I shall call for the yeas 

and nays in the Honse upon that amendment. The point of order 

that I made bas not been decided by the Chair. 

Mr. DURHAM. I call the gentleman to order. 

Mr. FINLEY. I have the floor, and I propose to keep it. 

I desire to say that I raised the point of order upon this amendment. 

The Chair bas not decided that point. He asked some other gentle- man over there if be withdrew my point of order, and he said that he 

did; thereupon the Chair went on with business. 

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair desires to state to the gentleman 

from Ohio that the point of order was originally made by the gentle- man from Kansas. 

Mr. FINLEY. I was under the impression that I made it fi..."St. 

Mr. PHILLIPS. I made it first and I withdrew it. 

Mr. PRICE. I offer the following as a new section: 

SEc. 4. For the purpose of employing and paying clerks to keep np the records 

of the ~neral Land Office and to furnish patents and certificates of titles w per- sons entitled to the same, the sum of $10,000. 

Mr. DURHAM. I make the point of order upon the amendment 

that it is not authorized by law. The amendment proposes to increase 

the number of clerks authorized by law, and so is not in the line of 

economy. 

• Mr. PRICE. In answer to that I will say that I think my friend 

from Kentucky [Mr. DURHAM] is mistaken. Recently the clerks 

whose business it wa.s to do this work have been discharged, and I 

propose to reinstate them so that the work which now lies upon the 

table of the Commissioner of the General Land Office may be attended 

to. As I said before, applications with the money accompanying 

them are now lying upon his table. This appropriation will take no money out of the Treasury, for the money is already there to pay for 

the work. 

Mr. DURHAM. I will ask the gentleman if there is any request 

from the bead of the Department to have this done. 

Mr. PRICg. Does the gentleman call in question my statement! 

Mr. DURHAM. I do not; but I call in qn~stion t.be right of the 

gentleman to ask for the appropriation without the recommendation 

of the head of the Department. I say there is no authority for it. I 

have filed here authority from the beads of Departments for all the 

amendments which I have offered. 

Mr. PRICE. I supposed I had the floor on this amendment. 

Mr. DURHAM. I was merely giving my reasons for my point of 

order. 

Mr. PRICE. I say I ask this appropriation in the interest of thuusands of men scattered all over the North and West who want to get 

their titles perfected and who have nntil this day beon unable to do 

so, notwithstanding they have paid their money for the pnrpo e and 

their requests accompanied by the money are now lying upon the table 

of the Commissioner of the General Land Office and there aro no clerks to perform the duty. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I understood the gentleman to say that the clerks 

charged with this service have recently been dismissed. I understand 

that the clerks who were recently discharged by the Commissioner of 

the General L"and Office are clerks who were engaged in perfecting 

the records of land in the States of Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, 

Alabama, and Florida, as provided in the third section of this bill. 

Those clerks who were engaged upon that service were discharged at 

the end of last month because the appropriation failed; and the Commissioner of the GeneraJ Land Office very properly discontinued their 

services when there was no longer any money appropriated to pay 

them. Now the necessary funds for their payment are provided by 

this bill, so that these clerks can be reinstated to perform this 

work. 

Mr. PRICE. The clerks to whom I refer were not employed upon that work at all, but were employed in making out certificates of title 

and patents for land, and those clerks have now been discharged, and 

the work cannot now be done. 

The CHAIR?t!AN. The gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. DURHA.l\1] 

makes the point of order that there is no law authorizing the employment of the clerks provided for in this amendment. The gentleman. 

from Iowa [Mr. PRICE] insists that there is authority of law for that 

purpose. The Chair is not sufficiently familiar with the statutes upon 

the subject to decide that question without detaining the committee 

by an examination of them. He will therefore submit to the com- mittee the question whether this amendment shall be received as in 

order. 

The question was taken; ancl upon a division there were-ayes 791 

noes 90. 

So the amendment was not received. 

The Clerk resumed and concluded the reading of the bill. 

Mr. DURHAM. I move that the committee now rise, and report this 

bill to the House, with the amendments made by the Committee of 

the Whole. 

The motion was agreed to. 

The committee accordingly rose; and the Speaker having resumed 

the chair, Mr. POTI'ER reported that the Committee Gf the Whole, 

pursuant to the order of the Honse, had had under consideration the 
1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1583 

bill (H. R. No. 3102) authorizingthe Secretary of the Treasury to em- ploy temporary clerks, and making an appropriation for the same; 

also, making appropriations for detecting trespass on public lands, 

aud for bringing into market public lands in certain States, and for 

other purposes, and had made sundry amendments thereto, and had 

directed him to report the bill with the amendments to the House. 

Ur. DURHAM. I call the previous question upon the bi1J and 

.amendments. 

The previous question was seconded and the main question was .ordered; and under t.be operation thereof tho amendments reported 

from the Committee of the Whole were adopted without a ilivioion, 

.except the following: 

For detecting and bringing to trial and punishment persons guilty of violating tllo internal· revenue laws, or conniving at the same, including payments for infor· 

mation and detection of such violations, $20,000, or so much thereof as may be nee. essary for the purpose, to be exyended under the direction of the Commissioner of 

Internal Re\enue, being a defic1ency for the fiscal year ending J nne 30, 1878. 

Mr. FINLEY. Upon the amendment just read I ask for a separate 

vote. 

The question was taken upon agreeing to the amendment; and 

upon a division there were-ayes 124, noes 35. 

Before the result of this vote was announced, 

Mr. FINLEY called for the yeas and nays. 

The yeas and nays were not ordered, there being 14 in the affirmative, not one-fifth of the last vote. 

So the amendment was agreed to. 

Mr. DURHAM moved to reconsider the votes by which the amendments of the Committee of the Whole were agreed to; and also moved 

that the motion to reconsider be laid on the table. 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

The bill, as amended, was then ordered to be engTossed and read a third time; and it waa accordingly read the third time. 

Mr. KNOTT. Upon the passage of the bill I call for the yeas and 

nays. 

'i'he yeas and nays were not ordered, there being 12 in t.he affirmative, not one-fifth of the last vote. 

The bill was then pa.ssed. 

Mr. DURHAM moved to reconsider the vote by which the bill was passed ; and also moved that the motion to reconsider be laid on the 

table. 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

ORDER OF BUSTh"ESS. 

Mr. HUMPHREY. I move that the House now adjourn. 

'!'he SPEAKER. The Chair desires to submit two or three requests ,to the House. 

LEAVE OF ABSENCE. 

By unanimous consent, lea:ve of absence was granted as follows: 

To Mr. AcKLEN, for seven days; 

To Mr. NEAL, for Friday; and 

To Mr. HUNTER, for ten days, from and after Monday next. 

WITHDRAWAL OF PAPERS. 

Mr. WHITE, of Pennsylvania, by unanimous consent, obtained ']eave for the withdrawal from the files of the Honse of the petition 

and papers in the case of John Henry, applying to be restored to the 

pension-rolls; which were referred January, 1877, to the Committee on Invalid Pensions. 

BRANCH ~T AT OMAHA. 

Mr. WELCH, by unanimous consent, intrQduced a bill (H. R. No. :"372"2) to establish a branch mint of the United States at Omaha, in 

tho State of Nebraska; which was read a first and second time, re- ferred to the Committee on Coinage, Weights, and Measures, and 

..ordered to be printed. 

MOBILE AND OHIO RAILROAD COMPA.~. 

Mr. CLYMER, by unanimous consent, introduced (by request) a bill (H. R. No. 3723) to authorize the Secretary of the Treasury to 

ref11nd certain internal-revenue taxes erroneously collected from the 

l\lobile and Ohio Railroad Company; which was read a. first and sec- .ond time, roferred to the Committee of Ways and Means, and ordereu 

to be printed. 

ADMTh"'STRATORS OF WALTER H. STEVENS. 

On motion of Mr. HENRY, by unanimous consent, the Committee . .of Claims was discharged from t11e further consideration of the papers 

in the case of Ernestine H. Stevens and Thomas S. Rhett, administrators of Walter H. Stevens; and they were referred to the Committee on Foreign Affairs, not to be brought back on a motion to reconsider. 

L"'IDIA.l.~ AGENCIES IX AlliZONA. 

Mr. SPARKS. I ask unanimous consent to report back from the 

Committee on Appropriations for reference to the Committee of .Claims the bill (H. R. No. 3516) making appropriation for the payment of certain vouchers now on file in the Interior Department for 

supplies delivered for the use and support of the different Indian agen- .cies in the Territory of Arizona for the year 1874 and prior yeaJ:s. 

Mr. DUNNELL. That bill ought to go to the Committee on Indian 

_Affairs. That bas been the usual reference. 

Mr. SPARKS. The Committee on Appropriations examined the 

question very thoroughly, and came to the conclusion that it ought to 

go to the Committee of Claims. 

The SPEAKER. Is there objection to the reference of the bill to 

the Committee of Claims Y 

Mr. DUNNELL. I object. 

TRUSSES FOR DISABLED SOLDIERS. 

J\.Ir. HARRISON, by unanimous consent, introduced a bill (H. R . 

No. 3724) to amend the act entitled "An act to provide forfurnishing 

trusses to disabled soldiers," approved May 28, 1872; which was read a first and second time, referred to the Committee on Invalid Pensions, 

and ordered to be printed . 

HARTSON GILLE'ITE. 

Mr. BREWER, by unanimous consen~, introduced a bill (H. R. No. 

3725) granting a pension to Hartson Gillette, late a private in the 

Twenty-second Michigan Infantry; which was read a first and sec- ond time, referred to the Committee on Invalid Pensions, and ordered 

to be printed. WEDEN O'NEAL. 

Mr. CARLISLE, by unanimous consent, introduced a bill (H. R. 

No. 3726) for the r~lief of Weden O'Neal, late lieutenant-colonel of 

t.he Fifty-fifth Regiment Kentucky Volunteer Infantry; which was read a first and second time, referred to the Committee on Military 

Affairs, and ordered to be printed. 

WILLIAM WATTS. 

Mr. CARLISLE also, by unanimous consent, introduced a bill (H. 

R. No. 3727) for the relief of William Watts, of Boone County, Kentucky; which was read a first and second time, referred to the Committee of Claims, and ordered to be printed. 

The motion of Mr. HuMPHREY, that the Honse adjourn, was then 

agreed to ; and accordingly (at five o'clock and thirty minutes p. m.) 

the House adjourned. 

PETITIO~S, ETC. 

The following petitions, &c., were presented at the Clerk's desk, 

under the rule, and referred as stated : By the SPEAKER: The petition of Captain S. P. :larran and 

others, late members of Company C, One hundred and ninth Regiment, Pennsylvania Volunteers, relating to the Army record and pension claim of Patrick Blaney, late of said company an<l regiment-to 

the Committee on Invalid Pensions. 

By Mr. ATKINS: The petition of the publisher of the Benton (Tennessee) Banner, for the abolition of the duty on type-to the Com- • mittee of Ways and Means. 

By Mr. BAYNE: Resolutions of the Chamber of Commerceof Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, favoring the passa~e of House bill No. 61, providing for the repeal of all taxes on capital and deposits with. State 

and national banking institutions, and also to repeal the check-stamp 

tax-to t.he same committee. 

By Mr. BICKNELL : The petition of citizens of California, against 

the further extension of time to the Southern Pacific Railroad -to the 

Committee on Railways and Canals. 

By .Mr. BOUCK : The petition of J obn Bertier, for a pension-to the 

Committee on Invalid Pensions. 

Also, the petition of the publisher of the Expositor, Sturgeon Bay, 

Wisconsin, for the abolition of the duty on type-to the Committee 

of Ways and Means. 

By Mr. BREWER: The petition of H. Gillette, for a pension-to the 

Committee on Invalid Pensions. · By Mr. CALKINS: The petition of Holland Taylor & Co., job printers, for the abolition of the duty on type-to t.he Committee of Ways 

and Means . By Mr. CLARK, of Iowa: Papers relating to the claim of Jacob 

Criser-to the Committee of Claims·. By Mr. CONGER: The petition of the publisher of the Mount Clem- ens (Michigan) Monitor, for the abolition of the duty on type-to the 

Committee of Ways and Means. · By Mr. CORLETT: The petition of citizens of Uintah County, Wyoming Territory, against the passage of the bill annulling the act of 

the Legislature of said Territory providing for the organization of 

Crook and Pease Counties-to the Committee on the Judiciary. 

By Mr. CUTLER: Two petitions from operatives in and manufact- urers of woolen goods in Ridgewood and Midland Park, New Jersey, 

against changing the tariff-to the Committee of Ways and Means. 

By Mr. DANFORD: The petition of John Bradfield and 65 other 

citizens of Barnesville, Ohio, against the reduction of the tariff on wool-to the same committee. 

By Mr. DAVIS, of California: Resolutions of the Legislature of California, for legislation to encourage rifle practice-to the Committee on Military Affairs. 

Also, two petitions of citizens of San Francisco, against the reimposition of the income tax-to the Committee of Ways and Means. 

By Mr. DAVIS, of North Carolina: The petition of citizens of Wil- son County, North Carolina, for the establishment of a court at Tarborough, North Carolina-to the Committee on the Judiciary. 

Also, the petition of the publishers of the Oxford (North Carolina) 

Torchlight, for tbe abolition of the duty on type-to the Committee 

of Ways and Means 
I 

1584 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. MAROH 8. 

By Mr. DENISON: The petition of the publishers of the Herald 

and News, West Randolph, Vermont, and of the Vermont Union, 

Lyndon, Vermont, for the abolition of the duty on type-to the same committee. 

By Mr. DURHAM: The petition of George Wright, for compensation for the use of his patented linch-pin by the United States Army 

Ordnance Department-to the Committee on Patents. 

Also, papers relating to the claim of G. W. Penn-to the Committee on Military Affairs. 

By Mr. EVINS, of South Carolina : A paper relating to the establishment of a post route between Camden and Taxahaw, South Carolina, by way of Gum Swamp, Hough's Bridge, Buffalo, and Gardner's Store-to the Committee on tho Post-Office and Post-Roads. 

By Mr. FELTON: The petitions of the publishers of the Journal, 

Marietta, Georgia; of the Gazette, Summerville, Georgia; and of the 

Rome, (Georgia) Tribune, for the abolition of the duty on type-to 

the Committee of Ways and Means. 

By Mr. GIDDINGS: Papers relating to the claim of H. V. Philpotto the Committee of Claims. 

By Mr. GLOVER: The petition of the publishers of the Examiner, 

aud of the Republican, Macon, Missouri, and of E. M. Baxter, job 

printer, of the same place, for the abolition of the duty on type-to the 

Committee of Ways and Means. 

By Mr. GUNTER: Papers relating to the land claim of the heirs of 

Jean Fran~ois Perry-to the Committee on Private Land Claims. 

By Mr. HARRISON: The petition of the publisuer of the Furniture 

Trade Journal,Chicago,Illinois, for the abolition of thedutyon typeto the Committee of Ways and Means. 

By Mr. LAPHAM: The petition of J. Milton Munson, George Carter, 

and 155 others, against a revision of the tariff on wool-to the same committee. 

By Mr. LINDSEY: The petition of R. H. Marble and other citizens 

of Harmony, Maine, for the equalization of soldiers' bounties-to the 

Committee on Military .Affairs. 

By :Mr. MAISH : A paper relating to the establishment of a postroute from Arendtsville to Graefenburgh, Pennsylvania-to the Uommittee on the Post-Office and Post-Roads. 

By Mr. MANNING: The petition cf Emmet Y. Parham, of Michigan 

City, Mississippi, for compensation for supplies taken by the United 

States Army-to the Committee on War Claims. 

By Mr. McKENZIE: The petition of the bar of Madisonville, Kentucky, that the sessions of the United States district court for the 

western portion of Kentucky be held at Hopkinsville, instead of 

Paducah, Kentucky-to the Committee on the Judiciary. • B:v Mr. MONROE: The petition of H. L. Treat and other citizens, 

oi Wadsworth, Ohio, against the reduction of the tariff-to the Committee of Ways and Means. 

By Mr. MORGAN: The petitions of the publishers of the following-named newspapers in Missouri: the Lawrence Chieftain, Mount 

Vernon; theNeoshoTimes; theClintonAdvocate; the Granby Miner; 

and the Barton Coun*y Advocate, for the abolition of the duty on type-to the same committee. 

Also, the petitions of William Reed, S. D. Carpenter, and 50 other 

citizens of Jasper County, Missomi; of R. B. Montgomery and 90 

other citizens of Elkhorn Township, McDonald County, Missouri ; 

and of Moses Eagle, J. R. Shelley, and 50 other citizens of the same township, for the repeal of the resumption act, and for other legislation in the interest of the people on the question of :finance-to the 

Committee on Banking and Currency. 

By Mr. POWERS: The petition of Daniel Stewart and others, for 

legislation in reference to the sale of intoxicating liquors-to the 

Committee on the Judiciary. 

By Mr. PRICE : The petition of the members of the bar of Washington County, Iowa, for a district and circuit court to be held at 

Davenport., Iowa-to the same committee. 

By Mr. PUGH: Concurrent resolutions of the Legislature of New 

Jersey, relating to the payment of maturing obligations of the United 

States-to the Committee on Banking and Currency. 

By Mr. REA: The petitions of the publishers of the Worth County 

(Missouri) Times, and of the Grant City (Missouri) Star, for the abolition of th~ duty on type-to the Comruittee of Ways and 1\leans. 

By Mr. RICE, of Ohio: The petition of the publisher of The Times, 

Van Wert, Ohio, of similar import--to the same committee. 

By Mr. SAMPSON: The petition of G. D. Woodin and 60 others, 

members of the bar of Keokuk County, Iowa, for the holding of circuit courts at the same places district courts are held, and establishing Davenport as an additional point of holding said courts-to the 

Committee on the Judiciary. 

By Mr. SAYLER: Papers relating to the bHl to authorize William 

A. Dorner and others to construct a ship-canal at the head of Lake 

George, Florida-to the Committee on Railways and Canals. 

By Mr. VANCE : The petition of Isaac A. Sheppard & Co., for the 

passage of Honse uill No. 2022, relating to metal castings-to the 

Committee on Patents. 

By Mr. WIGGINTON: The petition of the board of supervisors of 

Los Angeles County, the board of commerce and the city council of 

the city of Los Angeles, Califoqtia, and 550 citizens, for an appropriation to complete the improvement of 'Vilmin~ton harbor, Los Angeles County, California-to the Committee on Commerce. 

Also, the p(\titions ·of the publishers of the Inyo (California) Independent, the San Jos6 (California) Herald, the Delta Visalia, Cali~ 

fornia, and of the Mariposa (California) Gazette, for the abolition of 

the duty on type-to the Committee of Ways and Means. 

By Mr. WILLIAMS, of Ore_gon: The petition of citizens of Benton 

County, Oregon, for the eetablishment of a harbor of refuge at Cape Foul weather, Oregon-to the Committee on Commerce. 

Also, two petitions of citizens of Lane and Marion Counties, Oregon, that the time be extended for the completion of the Northern 

Pacific Railroad-to the Committee on the Pacific Railroad. 

By Mr. WILLIS. of New York: The petition of Mary C. Murray, 

for a pension-to the Committee on Invalid Pensions. 

By Mr. YOUNG: The petition of Mary A. Branch and W. W. R. 

Elliott, for compensation for stores taken by the U nitedStates Armyto the Committee on War Claims. 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. 

FRIDAY, March 8, 1878. 

The House met at twelve o'clock m. Prayer by the Chaplain, Rev. 

W. P. HARRISON. 

The Journal of yesterday was read and approved. 

CENTENNIAL MEMORIAL. 

Mr. PATTERSON, of New York, by unanimous consent, submitted 

the following resolution; which was read, considered, and agreed to: 

Whereas in pursuance of the act of Congress approved January 18, 11:178, the great 

seal of the United States has been affixed to the document entitled The Adminis- trators of the United States Government at the beginning of its Second Century; 

and 

Whereas the party who projecte<l and had charge of the formation of said docu- ment is desirous of depositing the same where it will not lose its identity and will 

be accessible to the ~eneral public: 

lle8olved, That a committee of thirteen, consisting of one from the thirteen original States respectively, be appointed to arrange the proceeding;s and ceremonies for 

the placing of the said centennial memorial in the Department of State. 

G. ALFRED HALL. 

Mr. DURHAM, by unanimous consent, reported back adversely from 

the Committee on Appropriations papers relating to the claim of G. 

Alfred Hall; which were laid on the table, and the accompanying 

report ordered to be printed. · 

EXPORTATION OF GUANO. 

Mr. COX, of New York. Mr. Speaker, I move by unanimous con- sent of the House to take from the Speaker's table the bill (H: R. No. 

1474) further to suspend the operation of section 5574 of the Revised 

Statutes of the United States, title 72, in relation to the guano islands, 

returned from the Senate with an amendment, and to move that the 

amendment be concurred in. The amendment reduces the time from 

ten to five years. · There was no objection, and the amendment of the Senate was read, as follows: 

In line 6 before the word "years" strike ont "ten" and insert "fiye;" so as to 

make the bill read : That section 5574, title 72, of the Revised Statutes of the United States be, and 

the same is hereby, further suspended, as tbe.rein set forth, for the period of five 

years next from and after the passage of this act. 

The amendment was concurred in. 

Mr. COX, of New York, moved to reconsider the vote by which the 

amendment was concurred in; and also moved that the motion to 

reconsider IJe laid on the table. 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

[Mr. Cox, of New York, subsequently obtained leave to print re- marks on the bill, which will appear in the Appendix.] 

TARIFF. 

/ Mr. EVANS, of Pennsylvania. I ask by unanimous consent at this 

time to present a memorial to the Congress of the United States of 

America of the workingmen of the Schuylkill Valley, and to move that it be referred to the Committee of Ways and Means and printed 

in the RECORD. 

l'here was no objection, and it was ordered accordingly. 

The memorial is as follows : 

To the honorable the Senate and the House of Representatives of the United States of .America in Congress assembled: 

The memorial of the workmen employed in the industrial establishments located 

in the Schuylkill Valley of Pennsylvania, without reference to politi?al creed or 

opinion, respectfnll.v present the appended resolutions as a. protest agamst tho passage of the tariff bill now before the Committee of Wa-rs all!l Means: 

Whereas the tariff bill in many of its pronsions will seriously affect the pro3- perity of tho trades and manufactures whereby we make a living for our families 

an1l ourselves; and 

Whereas the enactment of this revised tariff bill would utterly destroy the industries wo represent; and 

Whereas wo deem this a fitting time to give utterance to our ·dews concerning the unsettled condition of business. due to the tariff bill now offered; aocl we, ten thousand workmen, assembled in Pottstown March 2,1878, on behalf of ourselves 

and ten times ten thous:md fellow-workmen in this valley, unable to attend, do 

hereby llesol-ce. That when the stagnation which bas existed in every avenue of business 

anll trauo for the past few years seems to yielu to the first currents of returning a.cthity, which promise a better return for our labor, it is at this juncture of the 

hi,.bestimportance that all national legislation to regulate commerce should hEiin· 

spired bvnLl:l deliberation and wisejuugment.