8130 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. AUGUST 31, 

district in .Northern New Mexico-to the Committee on the Public amendment was referred•to the Committee on Appropriations; and or- Lands. dered to be printed. · 

By Mr. O'FERRALL: Petition of Lewis F. Moreland, heir of Sam- Mr. MANDERSON, from the Committee on Military Affairs, to whom 

uel ~foreland, ·of Clarke County, Virginia, for rE.>ference of his claim to was referred the billtS. 1892) for the relief of soldiers who have been 

the Court of Claims-to the Committee on War Claims. honorably mustered out of the service of the United States GovernBy Mr. OUTHWAITE: Petition of E. F. Redfern and others, in favor menton surgeons' certificates, reported it with amendments, and subof granting pension to Norah Lohr-to the Committee on Invalid Pen- mitted a report thereon. 

sions. • . EXTENSION OF APPROPRIATIONS. 

By 1\Ir. PHELAN: Petitio~ of Pete~ L. Feeger, of Tipton 9onnty, · Mr. ALLISON. I am directed by the Committee on Appropriations, 

Tennessee,. for reference of .h1s war chum to the Court of Claims-to to whom was referred the joint resolution (H. Res. 219) to continue the 

the Committee on War Claims. . . . provisions of a joint resolution entitled a" Joint resolution to provide . ~y l\1r. SNYDE~: ~~mons~ance of William A. Quarne: and othe~, temporarily for the expenditures of the Government," to report it withCitizens of West Vugmm, agamst the passage of Senate bill No. 3234- out amendment and I ask unanimous consent that it may be considto the Committee on the Judiciary. ered now. ' 

By Mr. WHEELER: Pet~tion~fWilliam Gullatt, of.Jackson County, The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The joint resolution will be read at 

Al:abama, for refer~nce of his cla1m to the Court of Claims-to the Com- length. 

m1ttee on War ClaliDS. Mr. HOAR. For information. 

The following petition, indorsing the per diem rated service-pension 

bill, based on thtl principle of paying all soldiers, sailors, and marines 

of the late war a monthly pension of 1 cent a day for each day they 

were in the sen·ice, was refeued to the Committee on Invalid Pensions: ' 

By Mr. C. S. BAKER: Of H. G. Thayer and 44 others, citizens of 

Monroe County, New York. 

SENATE. 

FRIDAY, .A~tg1tst 31, 1888. 

Prayer by the Chaplain, Rev. J. G. BUTLER, D. D. 

The Journal of yesterday's proceedings was read and approved. 

PETITIONS AND MEYORI.A.LS. 

~1r. MITCHELL. I present a petition of the Tacoma Bar Association, of the city of Tacoma, Wash., praying for the creation of two additional judicial districts in that Territory, and providing judges therefor; 

also a similar petition signed by members of the bar generally of Pierce 

County, Washington Territory. I move the reference of the petitions 

to the Committee on the Judiciary. 

The motion was agreed to. 

Mr. REAGAN presented the petition ofW. E. Bonner and 25 other 

citizens of Freestone County, Texas, praying that increased compen- sation be allowed fourth-class postmasters; which was referred to the 

Commi1 tee on Post-Offices and Post-Roads. 

REPORTS OF 00:\fMITTEES. 

Mr. TURPIE, from the Committee on Pensions, to whom were referred tbe following bills, reported them seYerally without amendment, and submitted reports thereon: 

A bill (H. R. 10122) granting a pension to Margaret Quinton; 

A bill (H. R. 7912) for the relief of Frances P. Vernon; 

A bill (H. R. 2716) granting a pension to J. W. Leight; 

A bill (H. R. 10738) to increase the pension of George C. Quick; 

A bill (H. R. 10241) increasing the pension of Richard Porter; 

A bill (H. R. 10907) granting a pension to Henry Mitchell Youngblood; and 

A bill (H. R. 6309) for the relief of Mary A. Covey. 

Mr. DAVIS, from the Committee on Pensions, to whom was referred 

the bill (H. R. 9557) for the relief of 1\Irs. Margaret Longshaw, dependent mother of William Lon!!5haw, late assistant surgeon United States 

Navy, submitted an adverse report thereon, which was agreed to; and 

the bill was postponed indefinitely. He also, from the same committee, to whom was referred the bill (H. 

R. 5193)granting anincreaseofpension toBenjaminFranklin, reported 

it without amendment, and submitted a report thereon. 

Mr. SAWYER, from the Committee on Pe~ions, to whom was re- ferred the bill (H. R. 9358) to increase the pension of Rosalie O'Sullivan, reported it without amendment, and submitted a report thereon. 

:Mr. BATE, from the Committee on 1\Iilitary Affairs, to whom were 

referred the following bills, reported them each with an amendment, 

and submitted reports thereon: A bill (S. 2766) for the relief of Maj. James Belger; and 

A bill (S. 2055) for the relief of Mrs. Catherine E. Whitall. 

Mr. BATE, from the Committee on Claims, to whom was referred 

the bill (S. 979) for the relief of Benjamin D. Lakin, submitted an ad-

. verse report thereon, which was agreed to; and the bill was postponed 

indefinitely. 

Mr. HARRIS, from the Committee on Epidemic Diseases, to whom was referred the bill (S. 3467) to prevent the introduction of contagions 

diseases from one Sta~e to another, and for the punishment of certain 

offenses, reported it with an amendment. 

.1\fr. FRYE, from the Committee on Commerce, to whom was referred an amendment intended to be proposed by Mr. DANIEL to the general 

deficiency appropriation bill, reported favorably thereon; and the 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. For information, subject to objection. 

The Chief Clerk read the joint resolution, as follows: 

Resolved, etc., That the provisions of o. joint resolution entitled 11o" Joint reso· lution to continue the provisions of a joint resolution approved June 30, 1888, 

entitled a 'Joint resolution to w.o..vid~ temporarily for the expenditures of the 

Government,' " approved July 31,1888, be and the same are hereby extended and 

continued in full force and effect to and including the 15th day of September, 1888. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Is there objection to the present con- sideration of the joint resolution? 

There being no objection, the Senate, us in Committee of the Whole, 

proceeded to consider the joint resolution. 

The joint resolution was reported to the Senate without amendment, 

ordered to a third reading, read the third time, and passed. 

BILL INTRODUCED. 

Mr. FARWELL introduced a bill (S. 3505) to amend an actentitled 

"An act to amend the statutes in relation to immediate transportation 

of dutiable goods, and for other purposes;" which was read twice by 

its title, and, with the accompanying paper~, referred to the Committee 

on Finance. AMENDMENT 'IO DEFICIENCY BILL. • 

Mr. CAMERON submitted an amendment intended to be proposed 

by him to the general deficiency appropriation bill; which was referred 

to the Committee on Appropriations, and ordered to be printed. 

LANDS IN COLU~IBI.A. COUNTY, FLORIDA. 

l\fr. CALL. I ask unanimous consent that the bill (S. 239) confirming titles to certain lands in Columbia County, State of Florida, which was reported ad>ersely by the Committee on Public Lands on the 27th 

instant and indefinitely postponed, may be placed on the Calendar. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempcn-e. The order by which the bill was 

postponed indefinitely will be reconsidered, if there be no objection, 

and the bill placed on the Calendar, with the adverse report of the com.mitt~e. The Chair hears no objection, and it is so ordered. 

TRANSIT OF GOODS IN BOND. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. If there be no further morning business, the Chair lays before the Senate a resolution coming over from 

yesterday, which will be read. 

The Chief Clerk read the resolution submitted by Mr. CuLLO:ll August 30, 1888, as follows: 

Whereas the President of the United State in his messa~e of August 23,1888, 

concerning our relations with Canada. advises Congress tnat Article XXlX of 

the treaty of Washingt-on, which provided for the tr11ousit of goods, wares, and 

merchandise in bond over the territory of the Unit-ed States to or from Canada 

is no longer in force ; and ' 

Whereas in the same message the President also advises Congress that sec- tion 3 of the act of March 1, 1873, passed to carry into effect the provisions of 

said Article XXIX is no longer in force; ~nd 

Whereas section 3005 of the Revised Statutes only authorizes the transit 

through the territ9ry of the United States of merchandise destined for Canada 

and arriving from abroad at New Yorkl Boston, and Portland in Maine (or at such other ports as may be specially designated by the Secretary of the Treas- ury) : Therefore, Reso~ved, That the Secretary of the Treasury be, and he is hereby, directed to inform the Senate whether the transit in bond over or across the territory of 

the United States, without the payment of duty,of goods, wares, and merchandise coming from Canada has been permitted since July 1,1885, when Article 

XXIX of the treaty of Washington, and section 3 of the act of March 1,1873, are said to have ceased to be in force; and, if so, to what extent and by what au- thority of law. . 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question is on agreeing to the 

resolution. 

1\Ir. GEORGE. Mr. President, I think the resolution is unnecessary. 

There are statutory provisions which have been in force since1862 and 

1864 under which exportations from Canada to the United States have 

been exported to foreign countries. In other words, at the time of the 

ratification of the treaty of 1871 all the operations of commerce which 

are permitted by Article XXIXofthattreatywerepermitted and in force 

and in vogue and constantly practiced under the then existing statntes 

of the United States. 

On June 7, 1864, an act was passed which is now incorporated in the 

Revised Statutes as section 3102, by which when goods arriving at a 

port in the United States were destined to a port not on the sea or 
1888. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- SENATE. 8131 ' 

destined to any port different from tlle port into which the importation 

was first made, they could be carried under b ond or in sealed cars to 

the port of destination. Under section 3102 goods arriving from Canada 

at any of the ports in the United States on the Lakes or on the line 

between Canada and the United States, by being in sealed cars or under 

bond could be transported without payment of duties, without examination by the custom-bouse officers and without breaking package, to 

·New York, or Boston, or Portland in Uaine, or any other port in the 

United States. 

When the importation from Canada arrived, for instance, in New 

York, by another statute passed on the 14th day of July, 1862, and 

whlch is now incornomted in section 2971 of the Revised Statutes, the 

go~ds thus arriving and thus being transported to N~w York could be 

immediately re-exported to any other country without the payment of 

duties, without the breaking of bulk, without any detention whatever 

other than such detention as was necessary to transact the business at 

the custom-bouse by which a clearance for the goods could be had. 

So section 3005 of the Revised Statutes only applied to importations 

from foreign countries destined for Canada, and only regnla.ted the 

transit that way, because at that very time the two statutes to which I 

have referred were in force, which allowed this duplex operation of first 

transferring the goods from the port of entry on the Canadian frontier 

to another port on the Atlantic, and the operation of section 3102 w bich 

allowed goods imported into the United States to be exported at any 

time withln three years, and they could immediately be exported. It 

was under that duplex operation that exports from Canada from the 

year 1864 were constantly tra¥ported across the territory of the United 

States for foreign countries, and it was not the r everse operation. The 

transfer of goodsarriving from foreign countries and destined for Canada 

was not provided for until 1866, two years after the former act went 

into operation. 

When that act was passed the matter stood in this way: Under the 

operations of the laws of the United States, section 2971 and its cognate sections and section 3102, all goods which the Canadians wished 

to export from their country to Europe or elsewhere could come through 

the United States without the payment of duty, without examination, 

without breaking package, or without any other trouble tban,getting 

an entrance at the custom-house in the port from which they were ex-

. ported. The goods went out under section 3102 as imports which the 

importer did not wish to consume here, but wished to re-export. 

When Congress came to act in 1866 as to the reverse operation they 

recognized what was well known, and what was the practice of the 

Treasury Department at the time, and they provided alone for the reverse operation, or the transfer of imported goods from Europe or other 

countries through the United States to Canada. 

~o there is the authority: plain, practiced on for nearly a quarte1· of 

a century, for the operation about which the resolution of the Senator 

from illinois makes inquiry. 

White I am up I wish to refer to a matter which I omitted yesterday, 

which is cognate to this subject and pertinent to it. I omitted to state 

yesterday that whilst under these two combined operations, under sec, 

tion 2871 of the Revised St.atutes and section 3102 of the Revised Statutes, to get goods from Canada. through the United States to a foreign 

country, as there has to be adistinctimportationintothe United States 

with but a short rest here, coming in as an importation, there does exist-and I hope the President, if the Senate will not give him the power 

that he asks for, will exercise that power-there does exist in the President a power under the act of 1887 which authorizes him to prevent 

the coming of any goods into the United States from Canada. He may 

under that power prevent that operation. Under that statute the transfer of goods from Cana.da to foreign countries by this duplex operation., 

first as an import, and then as an export of an import, may be prevented 

by the President, though be can not under section 3005 prevent the other 

operation; that is, the transfer under the authority oftha t statute of foreign goods coming into the United States by transit and destined for 

Canada. 

Mr. CULLOM. .I simply desire to say this morning that I introduced the resolution in perfect good faith for the purpose of getting 

information and with no captions spirit whatever. In view of the 

suggestions of the Senator from Mississippi as to sections of the law to 

which I did not have my attention called, I will ask that the resolution lie over until to-morrow morning, and if I find that it is -covered 

by the statutes, as the Senator states, I shall then allow the resolution to go to the appropriate committee or to be disposed of in some other way. 

Mr. GEORGE. I think that is proper. I have no doubt the Sen- ator will find the case to be exactly as I stated it. 

Mr. VEST. I was not in the Senate yesterday. I understood the 

Senator from Illinois to state day before yesterday that he intended to 

leave the city. . 

Mr .. CULLOM. No; I did not expect to leave, and I do not remember that I said so. 

11Ir. VES!-'. I had intended .to address the Senate upon the question of the PreSident's message lately sent to thls body, but my h ealth has 

been such for two days that I do not feel able to enter at length into 

the discussion, unless t he exigencies of the business of t he Senate demaud it. But I see in the RECORD of yesterday's proceedings, in the 

r emarks of the Senator from Illinois, the following statement: 

This AdrMnistration bas been from first to last one of sham and pretense. It bas made a pretense of economy, but has been the most extravagant one we have ever had for very many years. It bas made a pretense of favoring civil- service reform, while there never has been one that so utterly disregard~ it, _ as the Senator from Maine [Mr. HALE], the -chairman of the select committee on that subject, has shown by his statements here and by discussions which have taken place. I have in my band a newspaper, which I shall not take up the time of th~ Senate to read, but which gives an account of civil-service re- form in the great city of Chicago, in my own State, in connection with the post- office there, where the law partner of the postma.ster put a card upon his door and sent cards to the various employes, telling them to come over and see hiin, nnd the account says that the ante-room of that distinguished lawyer, the part- ner of the postmaster at Chicago, was full of people knocking at the door to get in to make the contributions, so that they might not lose their places. 

If the postmaster at the city of Chicago, an appointee of this .Administration, has prostit.nted his office, violated his oath, trampled upon 

the rules of the civil service by collusion with his law partner- if h e 

has through his law pn.rtner emulated the example which the Republican party set to the country foT so many years, and if he bas indirectly sought to evade a. plain statute, then that official should be put 

out of office and should receh'e the condemnation of"every honest man, 

for he bas violated his duty, he has violated the law, and I undertake 

to say that it would receive the condemnation of the President of the 

United States and those now in authority. 

:But when the Senator from Illinois, in his capacity as a Senator, 

speaks .of civil service reform in his own State, and goes out of the way 

in a legitimate illscussion upoh a great international question to assail 

his political opponents, I wish to bring to the attention of the Senate 

and the country the record which I send to the desk and ask the Secretary to read. 

'l'he Secretary read as follows: SPRINGFIELD, ILL,, July 11, 1883, 

DEAR Sm: Permit me to introduce to you Hon. E. E . Cowperthwait, whom you have just appointed. He has been compelled to remain at home a few days to get his business in shape. Mr. Cowperthwaitis a member of our State Leg- islature and a man of very considerable political influence in the State. I shall be very grateful to you for any special favor you may be able to extend t o him, as it will be of political use to have him in the State, if it can be so arranged, after he gets familiar with the work. . . I am. very grateful to you for the interest you_have taken in securing the po- sition. Hope I shall be able to return favors some of these days. 

Truly yours, 

General W. ,V. DUDLEY, 

CommissiomJI' of Pensions. 

S.l\I. CULLOM. 

SPRINGFIELD, ILL., September 15, 188!.. 

DEAl!. FR~TD: Our campaign is beginning to get warm. We need onr forces. Can yon give E. E. Cowperthwait, one of your special examiners, now in Mis- souri, a leave of absence for a. month to come home and help in the campaign? He is a good speaker and a man of influence. He is a. poor man, and I hope he can ha,·e leave with pay. Yours, 

General W. W. DUDLEY, 

Commissioner of Pensions. 

S. 1\I. CULLOM. 

SPECIAL EXAMINEn. S DIVISIO~, January 8,1886. 

1\Ir. E . E. Cowperthwait was gr anted leave of twenty-three days, with pay, from October 6, and nine days. without pay, from October 29, 1884. 1\Ir. C. was appointed July 18, 1884., fi·om illinois. . A. S. COLEMAN, Ohi~f. 

Mx. VEST. I simply wish to add that I untlerstand the elementary 

and first principles of the civil-service reform movement to be that the 

public officers of the country and the time of the public officer$ shall 

not be prostituted to political purposes by any official of the Government. If this gentleman could be taken from his duties in the Pension Office and his pay continued whilst he did campaign work in the 

State of Illinois, then it seems to me a strik;ing commentary upon the 

attack made yesterday upon the Democratic party in regard to the 

civilserrice in that State, and made now by the distinguished Senator 

whose name is appended to those dispatches or letters. 

Mr. CULLOM. I should like to inquire of the honorable Senator 

from what book he had the Secretary read? 

Mr. VEST. He read from the campaign book of. the Democratic 

party, which purports to take those letters from the reconls of the 

Pension Office. The Secretary may read the heading of the document, 

if necessary. 

:Mr. CULLOM. I know what the document is. It used to sell nt a dollar a copy, I believe. 

Mr. VEST. I do not know what it sold at. 

:Mr. CULLOM. So far as tbe letters are concerned which the honorable Senator has had read, purportirig to be signed by myself, I have 

simply t.o say that I did write letters-I am not aware whether these 

are correct copies or not-t-o the Commissioner of Pensions, asking that 

the gentleman named be allowed a len.ve of absence to go hom~ and 

probably I said something about the campaign, and I probably said 

something about the gentleman having a leave of absence with pay, 

understanding as I did and do now, that employes of the- Government 

are entitled, either by law or regulation, I nm not sure which, to a 

given· l eave of absence, which is thirty days, I believe. 

Mr. PLUMB. Thirty days, with pay. 

Mr. CULLOM. I do not' know whether that is the law or:n.regnlat ion. · 

/ 

.. 
8132 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. AUGUST 31, 

Mr. HAWLEY. It is the law. 

Mr. CULLOU. I am not fully aware, bntlhavealwaysunderstood 

that to be the actual condition of affairs connected with the Government. That is all I have to say about those letters. 

So far as my charge against the Administration of the violation of 

the civil-service law is concerned, as the Senator from Missouri has seen proper to call up what I said in regard to the Chicago post-office, 

I ask the Secretary to read a report of what took place in connection 

with the lawyer, a partner of the _postmaster, who asked the employes 

of that post-office to come over to see him, so that we may know all 

about the whole situation. 

Mr. COCKRELL. From what is the Secretary to read? 

Mr. CULLOM. It is from the Chicago Tribune. The Secretary will 

please read what I have indicated. 

The Secretary read as follows: 

[Chicago Tribune, Wednesday, August 22, 1808.] 

"COlliE OVE.R AND SEE JIIE 11-A PRESSING INVITATION il:xTENDED TO POSTOFFICE EMPLOYEs-THEY RECEIVE A POSTAL CARD FRO~ JIIR. E. P. ESHER, OF 

THE FIRM OF JUDD, RITCHIE & ESHER, L"1"D WHEN THEY CALL ARE ASKED 

TO DONATE FROM 10 TO $25 TO THE DEJIIOCRATIC CAMPAIGN FUND-WHAT 

JIIR. JUDD SAYS ABOUT IT. 

During the last few days nearly everybody connected with the post-office re- ceived a. postal-card to this effect: "DEAR Sm: Please call and see me at your early convenience on a matter of importance. • "E. B. ESHER, "Room 38,.Ashland Block." 

Now, what was this matter of importance? A young man started out to pen- etrate the mystery. He went to Room 38 Ashland Block. Upon the door was neatly printed: 

"Judd, Ritchie & Esher, law office." 

"Judd, Ritchie & Esber," mused the young man. "Why, thatis Postmaster Judd's law firm. That's funny." Then he went in and asked for 1\fr. Esher. " That is my name," said the gentleman addressed, at the same time laying down his newspaper. l\fotioning the young man to a. vacant chair he inquired the m\.ture of his business. "I was told you wanted to see me," said the newcomer; ''my name is Holland." 

"Who told you?" asked Mr. Esher, eying the innocent looking stranger some- what suspiciously. "Ed Robinson." "Who's Ed Robinson?" "He works over at the post-office." "Do you work there too?" ''Yes, sir." "In what department?" "The Western mail room." Mr. Esher took out a roll of manuscript and appeared for a moment to be searching for the name of his visitor. Finding the search tedious and fruitless he looked up from his desk a.nd eyed the stranger in a. manner that witnesses subject to the legal gentleman's cross-examination have had great reason to dread. 

"I don't find your name here," he said abruptly. "Who is your superior?" " Ir. 'Vilbanks," replied the young man, growing somewhat nervous under the inquisition. . "Where's your card?" demanded the attorney sharply. "Card!" repeated the young man blankly, "I don't-that is--er-1 have not got any printed cards-! mean to say"-- The attorney kindly came to the assistance of his evidently embarrassed vis- itor, and, dropping his stern "nisi prius" demeanor, he a.ssumed a look in which patronage and kindness seemed to bubble forth from his every feature. "Never mind. If you did not receive a. card-a. postal card, I mean-you will do so. Now that you are here, however, I may a.s well tell you what I wanted you for. How much will you subscribe toward the Democratic national ca.m- paigu fund?" He stammered something about not being able to do much, but supposed he would have to come in with the rest. 

FIXING THE PERCENTAGE. 

"Let me see; what is your salary?" :Mr. Esher inquired, perceiving the young man's hesitation. "Only $75 a month, but"-- "Ah-1 see-a good contribution," broke in Esher gleefully. "Let me see- 8]5-shall we say $25? Yes, I think ~will about be satisfactory for a young ma.n in your position." At the same time be produced a book wherein a rong string of names of con- tributors were inscribed, against each of which was set forth the amount prom- ised. The majorhy had inscribed $10, but many had named $15 as their limit. Perceiving that Holland was inspecting the list somewhat curiously, Mr. Esher hastened to explain t-hat none of the signatures on that list were in a.s good a position as 575 a month. · "I must tell you, Mr. Holland-! thiuk you said that was your name-that the least you should give is 525." h But I have a wife and family," began the young man, apologetically, "and, 

besides, as I am just going to housekeeping, $25 is a big sum out of one month's money. By the way, when ha.s this money to be paid?" "It should be paid by the 1st of September, but in your case I think we may call it the 16th; and suppose we say $20 instead of $25, how will that suit?" The visitor meekly acknowledged the condescension of his pseudo chiers partner, and, appearing to become bold by the graciousness of the attorney, ventured to suggest $15 as the limit to which his housekeeping fund should be taxed for the benefit of the present Administration. "All right, we will call it$1.5, but do not tell any of the boys that you only gave so I i ttl e. Sign your Dllme in this book and just say • Payable by September 16.' '' Thus requested, the yonng man nervously seized the proffered pencil and signed" J.P. Holland. Payable on or before September 16, $15." 

"lrememberyournamenow," said Mr. Esher, ashe took the pen. "!recollect sending you a notice to come and see me. You'll get it all right." Then he 

bade the young man good-day. 

MR. ESHER SADLY PERPLEXED-A SECO:r<-n CALL FROJII THE YOUNG MAN WORRIES HIM. 

Something like an hour later the same younll: man called again at the law of- fice where Postmaster Judd is the principal partner. He asked for Mr. Esher. "Mr. Esheris busy," said a tall,funereallooking clerk in reply to the report-- er's inquiries. .A glimpse through the half-opened door of M.r. Esher's private office disclosed '"li gentleman seated at his desk expounding the law in its dual relationship 

to civil-service reform and Democratic suceess to a couple of letter-carriers. His arguments seemed to be as brief and just as directly to the point as they had been when he wa.s inculcating to •• Ed. Robinson's" friend the necessity of plank- ing down the cohl. dollars for the good of the cause. His hearers in this case, however, seemed to have a great deal more to say. Their voices could be heard considerably above a mild whisper, and it sounded to the outsider much as though there was a kick being made. Suddenly there wn.s a silence, a scraping of chairs as of some one drawing up to a desk to sign his name. and an instant later the two letter-carriers appeared in the doorway of the office. Their flushed faces and far from enthusiastic looks plainly told that the interview had not been a pleasant one, and that they were glad it was over. J • Mr. Esher is disengaged now," said the funereal youth. 

JIIR. ESHER IS SURPRISED. 

Entering the office the young man handed to Mr. Esher his car<l: 

"J. P. Holland, Chicago Tribune." 

The lawyer motioned to his visitor to take a chair, at the same time bending over his desk to read the inscription on the card. As he did so his hand mechanically sought the open subscription book which lay on the desk, and before he had taken his eye from the offending pasteboard the tell-tale book had been doubled up in the hand furthest from whe1·e the re- porter sat. ''What can I do for you, sir?" said the lawyer at length, looking up. "The Tribune would like to know something about the Democratic campaign 

fund," the reporter began,when suddenly the look of horrified perplexity which began to creep over the lawyer's face caused him to stop. 

Perplexity, anxiety, indignation, dismay, and horror succeeded each other with lightning rapidity in the expression of the attorney's mobile features. "The Tribune ?-er- 1 don't understand," be stammered, whenever the re- porter repeated the query for information. "Impossible!" muttered the attorney sotto voce; "it can not be-but yet--" and the remainder of his thoughts expended themselves in the region of his astonished brai"n. "\Vell, sir," suddenlydmwing himself up and facing the rcporterwith an ex- pression in which could be read a determination to be a.s candid and outspoken as a deaf mute oyster, "what can I do for you?" , "The Tribune would like to know something about the Democratic campaign 

fund," repeated the reporter for the third time. Again the look of agonized perplexity crept into the lawyer's face, and, spite of his evident intention to show a bold front, he replied: 

"Hayen't I seen you somewhere before?" "Yes. sir-about an hour ago." 

"Chicago Tribune!" the puzzled lawyer repeated to himself; taking up the card which had been lying before him. "Where did I see you?" 

"Right here." "But how can that be- didn't you bring me a card?" "No, sir; I didn't have one to bring." 

"Strange!" be replied, as if tryiug to recall the incidents of the interview with the renorter. 

"'Ed Robinson' sent me, you remember," suggested the latter, noting the perplexity of his interlocutor. "Ob, I see; you work at the p ost-office. Ah! that's different," as though a. load of care had suddenly been taken off his mind. "No, sir; I work at the Tribune office," responded the reporter. 

MR. ESHER LOCKS THE DOOR. 

The incipient smile vanished, and the astonished lawyer rose to his feet and walked towards the office door. '.rurning the key in the lock, he re,sumed his seat, and ran his fingers through his hair, as if trying mentally to grasp the situation before he proceeded fur- ther. 

Soon the ludicrous side presented itself, and he faced around, smiling, to his visitor, to whom he extended his hand. · •• Very clever,very clever, indeed. Now, what are you going to do about it?" "Just as you say. All I want is information," the reporter replied, grasping the outstretched hand. "First or all, how about that $15 subsm·iption?" "That was hardly fair. Yo'..l see I have already remitted that money, or, at least, mademysclfliable for it." "How so?" "I have checked it off as paid-see," showinJr the book in which the report-- er's signature was already succeeded by a. number or other signatures for simi- lar or less amounts. "By checkipg it off as paid I made m-yself liable to the national committee for that amount, and unless some one pays it I shall be just so much out of pocket." "Isn't this a pretty steep sum for a poor fellow only earning $75 a month, with a wife and family to support and just going to house-keeping?" "Not very-at least as compar£d with the assessment-s paid under a Repub- lican administration." "What was the rate of E.epublicau assessments?" inquired the reporter. "Much higher, I assure you. I shoUld say, however, that this is not an as- sessment," the lawyer explained. 

SUBSCRIBERS TO THE FU:!\"'1>-THE AUTHORITY JIIR. ESHER HAS TO ACT AS COLLECTOR. 

"To whom were the postal-cards sent?" "To everybody likely to contribute-Government employes and others." "Would you mind showing me one of the postal-cards?" "What good would it do you?" 

"l\fy object is to learn if there is anything of the 'stand and deliver ' about the message which the letter-carriers seem so reluctant to answer." "Nothing of the kind-there's no reluctance on their part-they come will• ingly. I can give you the names of several who have called here, but whoml have sent away without obtaining their signatme beco.use I didn't think they could afford anything." . 1\Ir. Esher fumbled among the pile of postal-cards as be spoke and presently drew forth one from the heap. Holding it flat in his outstretcht!d palm so that the edges alone could be seen by the reporter, he continued: "This young fellow is a lad of sixteen. He came up here and would h.'l.ve signed his name for Sl.O willingly, but I told him to ask his father before doing 

so." 

"What was the boy's salary?" 

"l don't remember," repla-cing the card and throwing a. blotting-pad over 

the pile. · '• 'Ve have several instances of the kind-young men of seventeen or eighteen who want to subscribe, but whom I send away to get their parents' consent." "Did any of them come back yet?" "Not yet-at least not to my recollection," "About how much does each man snbscr1be?" asked the reporter, the mem· ory of that $15 still rankling in his mind. "Do they all prove r.s generous as reporters?" 

"I would rather be excused from answering that question. You see, it woulll have a bad effect on future subscriptions." "But can't y ou give me an idea-was I generous or niggardly? " 
1888. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. ·. 8133 

"If the truth must be told," the lawyer answered pleasantly, "you were rather above the average." 

"What would you call the average, then?" "About 1 per cent. for the lower-priced men, and rather more for those earn- ing larger salaries." 

HE IS NOT EliiPLOYED BY THE GOVERNMENT. 

"Are you in any way employed by the Government, Mr. Esher? '' ''l\Iost emplmtically no. .1\Iy authority in the matter emanates directly from the Democratic national committee." . To prove the truth of his assertion Mr. Esber produced the book in which the 1·eporter had written his name. A hasty glance at its pages as they were being turned over enabled the reporter to estimate the number of subscribers who had pledged themselves. The book is about thirty-six leaves thick and each page contains about twenty lines. As nearly as could be judged the book is about a third filled with names, which would give somewhere in the neighbor- hood of five hundred signatures. On the inside of the front cover is the following: "1\l.f:r. Ed~{U·d B. Esh~;- is duly authorized to collect subscriptions for the Dem- ocratic nat10nal campa1gn fund. "ERSKINE M. PHELPS, 

"Member of the Democ1·atic National Committee." 

"There you see my authority," exclaimed the attorney. "But bow came the national committee to select you as collector?" quel'ied the reporter. 

"I don't know-indeed I may admit that I was surprised when I learned of the appointment." MR. JUDD'S POSITION. 

"Did Mr. Judd tell you?" . "No, sir," indignantly. "In this connection Mr. Judd has no more to do with me than you have, in fact hardly as much. Ask him and you will find the facts to be ju!'lt as I have stated." "But if Mr. Judd did not actually inform you of the appointment does it not look as though the fact of your position as his law partner may have had some- thing to do with it?" · "Not in the least." "Don't the men feel that in answering your politely emphatic postal-card 

they would take their life or their job in their hands by refusing?" ''Not in the least. They come willingly, and I tell each one of them imme- diately he enters thiR office, before I mention subscription, that what I am about to say does not affect his position in any way, and that his refusal to sub- scribe, should he feel so inclined, will in no event be considered against him in 1·elation to his work." The earnestness of this declaration, delivered with a force of eloquence such ns no "twelve men good and true" could have withstood, would have carried conYiction even to the skeptical reporter's mind had he not suddenly remem- bered a little incident earlier in the afternoon, wherein a "young man with a wife and family, about togo to housekeeping," bad been held up, and this polite intt·oduction of the subject omitted. Ignoring the discrepancy as likely to lead off the subject of l\Ir. Judd's con- nection with the fund, he asked: "Does 1\:Ir. Judd know of this collection being made in his office?" "This is not his office; it is my office," answered the wary lawyer. 

''\Veil, does be know of the collection being taken up in your oflice, then?" "I suppose so, but, I repeat, he has nothing whatever to do with it. I act directly for the national committee. I don't know who suggested my name to t.hem. I only returned from Europe this summer, and ou my return I was informed that I had been selected." . "I suppose, then, 1\Ir. Judd would not countenance the collection did he know that the fact of his name being associated with yours in business acted as a sort of compulsion on the men?" •· Of course he would not." 

A POINT HE HAD STUDIED-MR. ESHER COULDN'T BE CAUGHT BY CIVIL-SERVICE 

LAWS. 

Changing the subject, as further questions on this point only promised to bring out further denials of the postmaster's complicity, tacit or expressed, in the matter, the reporter inquired: "How about the civil-service act? Is this not a direct violation of it?" The question seemed to please the lawyer hugely. He had evidently been ex- pecting it all through the unwilling cross-examination to which he had found himself in a measure compelled to act the part of candid witness. Smiling 

benignantly on the legally untutored scribe, he answered: "J had studied that law thoroughly before I undertook any part in this mat- ter, and I would suggest that you do the same." The abashed reporter acknowledged his ignorance on the subject from a strictly legal standpoint, and suggested that it would be well to enlighten the public how the act could be so n anowly skimmed and yet successfully evaded. "If you will consult the act you will find that it prohibits the collection of funds for party purposes from Government employ~ on two conditions. Fi1·st, the funds must be collected inside a Government building; and, secondly, the party making the coll ection must be a Government official. · " 1:'\ ow you can clearly see,'' he con tinned, ''that this is not a Government office. I pay rent for this pbce, and the Government has no more to do with it than you have; so far I am not breaking the law. Secondly, I am not a Government of- ficial. I was employed at the post-office until last spring, but since then I have found m_y legal practice all I could manage, so I gave up my Government posi- tion. If you can find any clause in the act which will bring me under its penal provisions I would Hke to hear about it. · "Mr. Phelps also is as free of Government fetters as I am, and I fail to see how the act reaches him." "But Mr. Judd-he can hardly b3 said to be outside the prohibited circle," the r eporter suggested. "I have already told you a dozen times that Mr. Judcl has nothing whatever to do with this fund," answered the lawYer in tones of vexation. 

TIIINGS HE WOULD LIKE LEFT OUT. 

Quickly changing the tone and t.beme of the conversation, llfr. Esher reverted to the scheme whereby he had given the whole business away to the reporter. "Afle'r all," he continued, "I don't think it was hardly the square thing for you to d~coming to me as you did, telUng me the yarn about 'Ed Robinson ' Now,as a favor to me I would ask you not tosayanythingaboutthatinterview. I would have been ready to give the Tribune alJ the information I have given you, and there's no use giving me away." As the reporter failed to respond with becoming alacrity to llfr. Esher's re- quest to kill a good story, the gentleman redoubled his taffy. 

"Will yori promise me one thing, like a good fellow?" the lawyer entreated. 

"If it be in my power, certaioly." 

"\Veil, as a personal favor, I ask you not to write anything of the scheme you put up on me to get this information." The reporter's memory instantly reverted to the fact that the "copy" of the first interview had been prepared before the second visit. "I won't write a single line on the subject." ~ 

"Thank you very much," replied the gratified lawyer, unlocking the door and bowing the reporter out. 

THEY WERE WAITING TO SEE IIIM. 

The ante-room was by this time filled with letter-carriers and others waiting 

patiently, and the looks of pitiful inquiry which met the reporter on emerging from the sanctum were not the strongest possible confirmation of the alleged 

willingness which 1\fr. Esher bad expatiated so largely upon. Two weary-looking carriers rose at once to face the music of the inner room, but before they could enter J\.lr. Esher appeared in the doorway and beckoned his funereal lieutenant to a confab on the aspect of affairs. At the elevator the reporter met two more letter-carriers hurrying like snails to theirchief'soffice. Entering the-elevator on its upward journey, he engaged in c01:iversation with the boy in charge. , "Lots of letter· carriers in this building," he observed. "'Pears so-guess dar mus' be sum' fin' like a lawsuit agio de Guv'nment- dey's comin' heah a week or mo' now-guess dar'ssom'fin' upsettin' 'em-dey all looks black' n 'er thunder an' goes off wuss'n'r dey come." "How many of them do you think there have been?" "I dunno. l\fus' ha' been hundreds-comin' an' go in' all de time- ' pears like s'f dar's gwine ter be a strike or sum'fin e.t: de sort--nebber seed sicha lot of mad lookin' pos'men-shuah." Thanking the darkey for the information, the reporter left the building. 

A TALK WITH MR. JUDD-OF COUr.SE HE KNOWS NOTHING OF THE ASSEi>SUENT 

OF POST-OFFICE PEOPLE. 

Seated in the pleasant back parlor of his well-appointed residence last even- ing, Postmaster Judd discussed the civil-service law with a Tribune reporter. •· What is your opinion," he was asked, "of the rule respecting the levying or soliciting of subscriptions for campaign purposes by Government employes of their subordinates?" "I think the rule is all right." 

"Supposing you should disco'i'er that one of you1· heads of departments was levying such subscriptions for the benefit of the present Democratic campaign?" "His head would come off instanter." "You intend, then, that the rule shall be observed to tJ1e letter in the Chicago 

post· office?" · 'l\fost assuredly." "Do you think this rule is understood by your heads of departments?" "I have taken pains that it should be, and I have no doubt it is." "And that they understand the nature of the penalty provided for t.hose who violate it? " •· I do not think there is any question about it." 

"Well, then, how do you account for "he fact that nearly ev~ry subordinate in your employ is tn receipt of a postal-card requesting him to call at a certain place, and that when he calls there he is urged to subscribe out of his next month's salary from ~10 to $25?" "I do not know any thing about such postal-cards, nor such demands on my employes. If I should find that they existed and emanated from any one con- nected with the Chica.<60 post-office, I should see that the rule was enforced wilhoutdelay.'' 

"'.rhese cards were signed • E. B. Esher ,' and the recipient was requested to call at room 38, Ashland Block." ·• Well?" 

"Room 38 is the law office of E. B. Esher, and when an employe of the post- office appeared in answer to the card he had received, ~It;. Esher at once asked . hin1 how much he was willing to subscribe t-oward the Democratic campaign 

fund. If the employe's salary was $75 a month or over, he was urged to put 

down his name in a book for $'25. If he demurred at that he was let off with 

$10 or $15." · 

"'Vell ?" "Mr. Esher has two partners-the firm name is Judd, Ritchie & Esher. You are one of the firm, are you not?" "No, hardly," said Mr. Judd, as he arranged his chin more comfortably in his high starched collar. "I can hardly be said t-o be a. partner, though my narue still stands with the others. I gave up my law practice when I was ap· pointed postmaster. They wished my name to remain in that of the firm, and it was so arrauged. Mr. Esher occasionally consults me on certain questions of practice, and that is all the connection I have with the firm." 

"Why should Mr. Esher send such cards to employes of the post-office?" "I suppose that if he wishes to solicit money for campaign purposes he may choose tlis own rue.1.ns of so doing. I know of no law that prohibits Mr. Esher or any one else not in the employ of the Government sol!c ting such subscrip-' tions from post-office employes as well as from other citizens." "But why should he inquit·e o r them in what department they are employed, 

what salaries they receive, and urge them to put thei~: names down for such comparatively large sums?" ''As to that I know nothing. I was aware that l\.Ir. E3her was interest-ed some- bow in the work of some campaign committee, but I had learned nothing about the details. He is a thoroughly honorable man, however, and would not iden- tify himself with questionable methods." "You are of the opinion, then, that no one in the post-office could levy con- tributions on the employ~ through 1\Ir. Esher?" "Perfectly sure. Nobody could make a tool ofEsher." 

1\Ir. Judd said he had subscribed to the campaign fund volu,ntarih·, and he had no doubt many of the post-office employes had done or would do. so. That was their own affair. He belbved that most of them wel'e aware that they could not be forced to do so on pain of losing their situations. If he found any attempt of the kind being made the offender sl10uld be brought to jilsti ce with- out delay. 

THE LAW 0~ POLITIC.\.L ASSE3Sl\IE:-<"T5 - WIIAT TB:E UNITED STATES STATUTE HAS 

TO SAY 0~ THE SUBJECT. 

In reference t-o assessments of Go\·ernment employes for political purposes, chapter ?:7 of the United States Statutes, entitled "Au act to regulate and improve the civil service of the United States," says: "SEc. 11. That no Senator, no Representative, or Terrilorial Delegate of the Congress, or Senator, Represe ntative, or Delegate elect, or any o!li::er or em- ploye of eithct· of said Houses, and no executive, judicial, military, or na,·al officer of the United States, and no cle rk or employe of any department. bran,h, or bureau of the executive, judicial, military, or naval service of the United 

State;,, shall, directly or ind irectly, solicit or recei\'e, or be in any manner con- cerned in soliciting or recei\·ing, any assessment, subscription, or contribution for any political purpose whatever, from any officer, clerk, ot· P.mploye of the United States, or any department, branch, or bureau thereof, or from any per- son receiving any salary or compensation from n1.oney derived from the Treas- ury of tbe United States. . "SEC. 12. That no person shall in any rQom or building occupied in the dis- charge of official duties by any officer or employe of the United States m entioned in this act, or in any navy-yard, fort, or arsenal, solicit in any manner whatever or receive any contribution of money or any other thing of value for any polit~ 

ical purpose whatever. "SEc. 13. No officer or employe of the United States mentioned in this act shall discharge, or promote, or degnlde, or in any manner change the official rank or compensation of any other officer or employe, or promise or threaten so to do, for giving or withholding or neglecting to make any contribution of money or other valuable thing for any po1itical purpose. 
8134 . CONGRESSION.t\f., :RECORD-SENATE. AUGUST 31, 

"SEc. 14. That no officer, clerk, or other person in the service of the United 

States shall, directly or indirectly, give or hand over to any other officer, clerk, or person in the service of the United States, or to any Senator, or member of 

the House of Representatives, or Territorial Delegate, any money or other valuable thing on account of or to be applied to the promotion of any political object whatever. · . "SEc.15. That any person who shall be guilty of violating any provision of 

tho four foregoing sections shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor, and shall, on conviction thereof, be punished by a fine not exceeding 5,000, or by imprison- ment for a term not exceeding three years, or by such fine and imprisonment 

both, in the discretion of the court." 

l\Ir. CULLOM. I have had that read for the purpose of showing 

that this man is acting under the orders of the Democratic national 

committee, collecting money for national campaign purposes, and evidently he was selected for the purpose of calling upon the Post-Office 

employes, as he had a list of them, as is shown there, for examination 

so that he might notify each man, as he seems to h::~.ve done. That is 

all I have to say about that. 

I desire to say further that as fa~ as· the Republican party is concerned it has never believed in muzzling any body's mouth in giving 

expression to his political views, whether he might be in the employ 

of the Government or not; and that if a man in the employ of the 

Go>ernment desires to talk or to make speeches in a campaign the 

Republican party does not deny him that privilege. 

·Mr. PLUMB. Mr. PresidentMr. ALLISON. Will the Senator yield to me a moment? I merely 

wish to call the attention of the Senator from 1\Iissouri [Mr. VEST] to 

the fact that this gentleman who was granted leave of absence was 

granted twenty-three days' leave with pay and nine days' leave without 

pay, showing, of course, that he was taking simply his ordinary thirty 

d~ys' lecwe, which the law authorizes every clerk in every Department 

of this Government to take in each year. 

Mr. HALE. Mr. President, I understood the Senator from Missouri 

[Ur. VEsT] to say that the essential feature of civil-service reform was 

that public office, in the language of his chief, is a public trust, and 

that the time of the officer should be given to that public trust and 

not to political or partisan work. Apropos to this, I call his attention, not to any old matters which I have hunted up in old reports, but 

to a modern instance. The New York Tribune of August 18,lessthan 

two weeks ago, is responsible for a statement which I ask the Secretary to read. 

'l~he Chief Clerk read as follows: 

li)Jt. TRAINER DRAWS FEDERAL PAY, ALSO, 

[Special.] WASHINGTON, .August 17. 

It may interest George 'Villia.m Curtis and other Mugwumps to know that the 

foreman in -charge of the document-room at the national Democratic committee rooms, at No. 10 West Twenty-ninth street, New York. is .John B. Trainer, sec- retary of the Congressional Library Commission, acting under appointment of Mr. Cleveland's Secretary of the Interior, and drawing a salary from the Gov- ernment of $1,800 a year. Mr. Trainer is one of the active ward politicians of 

Albany, and an intimate friend of Colonel Lamont's, which explains his ap- poinlment as secretary of the Library Commission. 

:Mr. HALE. I have had this read only to call the attention of the 

Senator from Missouri to what is alleged here as a gross violation of the 

President's orders, and in order that he may at once, or as soon as it is 

convenient, make a pilgrimage to the Interior Department, where the 

Secretary, I have no doubt, will at once lay his strong hand upon Mr. 

Trainer and either bring him home or remove him, or promote him, as 

a friend near me suggests. If that should fail, then I think it would 

be the duty of the Senator from .Missouri to lay this .case before the 

P~e;,ident, who has issued very stringent and urgent orders prohibiting just such practices as this, and then I am sure tha.t this evil will 

be remedied. 

l'llr. VEST. Why does not the Senator from 1\Iaine, after his peculiar JabOTS in behalf of civil-service reform,, undertake the examination 

of this speciai case? According to the debate between him and the 

Senator from Kentucky [Mr. BLACKBURN], had here a few days since, 

he bas overwhelmed himself with responsibility in this regard, and it 

is but a single item in the vast delinquencies of this Administration to 

examine the case of Mr. Trainer. I have not brought here the declarations of partisan newspapers. I 

would as soon quote from the writings of Tom Paine to a Christian 

congregation as to quote from the New York Tribune any statement 

which it might make against the Democratic party. It is simply impo ible for a sheet so partisan as that to do justice to the opposite 

party however great may be its delinquencies or its faults. 

Mr. CULLOI\1. I simply desire to state that it was the Chicago 

Tribune from which I had an article read. 

Ur. VEST. I do not·understa.nd the Chicago Tribune to be aDemocratic paper. If it is my political knowledge is very defective in that 

regard. 

Ur. CULLOM. Certainly it is not. 

Ur. ALLISON. The Chicago Tribune is a good Republican paper. Ir. VEST. The New York Tribune and the Chicago Tribune are 

. both Republican papers. 

Mr. ALLISON. Undoubtedly they are. 

Ur. VEST. And Republican Senators quote them here in sustaining 

charges against the Democratic party! I would not, partisan as I am, from my place in this Chamber quote from a partisan Democratic paper as to charges made upon these questions and statemenis of ilis reporters against the Republican party. I quoted from the records of · 

the Pension Office, but I only did that-for my personal relations with 

the Senator from Illinois, as he knows, are of the kindest characterbecause he assailed my party, because he went out of his way in the 

discussion of an internn.tional question to assail the Democratic party 

and to declare that it was a party of sham, of fraud, and of pretense, 

and had trampled upon civil-service reform. 

The Senator says, at the suggestion of some of his colleagues, that 

this man Cowperthwait, or whatever his name is, this member of the 

Republican State Legislature of Illinois, simply availed himself of the 

allowance of thirty days' l~we of absence under the law. It is the 

strangest application for a leave of absence under the statute I have 

ever known, and there are certain expressions in it that rather militate 

against that construction, and I will read them. The first letter is 

dated July 17, 1883, and seems to have followed immediately on the 

appointment of this man, because the letter says: 

Permit me to int-roduce to you Hon. E. E. Cowperthwait, whom you have 

just appointed. lie has been compelled to remain at home a. few days to get 

his business in shape. .Mr. Cowperthwait is a member of our State Legislature and a man of very considerable political influence in the State. I shall be very gt·a.te!ul to vou- . 

And here is the milk of this political cocoanut-

! shall be very grateful to you for any special favor you maybe able to' extend to him, as it will be of polilical W!e to have him in the State, if it can be so ar- ranged, after he gets familbr with the work. 

That is to say, his official pqsition is to be used in the State of Illinois for political purposes, for he is to be sent to Illinois, and he was 

taken from the State of Missouri and sent to the State of Illinois afterwards in violation of that rule of the Department which puts the examiners appointed from one State upon duty in another. This gentleman was appointed from Illinois and sent to the neighboring St..'l.te of 

Missouri, but at the special request of the Senator from illinois, on 

September 15, 1884, he is taken back from Missouri and sent to Illinois for a month's leave of absence for work in the campaign. 

I am the last man who lives in public or private life who objects t o 

any American citizen declaring his sentiments freely upon all public 

questions, and giving his influence legitimately to the advancement 

and upholding of any polttical system or any political principles. I 

have had occasion to express myself very decidedly upon that question 

during the present Administration as to appointees in my own State ; 

but here is the case of a man asked to be sent to Illinois in order that 

his officiai position might be used for political service and political effect; and if that is not a violation of the civil-service rules, then, though 

I am not an: expert on those rules, I do not understand the first principle on which they rest. 

:Mr. PLUMB. Mr. President, I should like to inquire what matter 

is pending before the Senate? ' 

Mr. CULLOM. I should like to say a word. 

· The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The resolution of the Senator from 

Illinois has been laid over by consent until to-morrow. 

Mr. CULLO~I. I asked that the resolution should be laid over--

Mr. VEST. I thought the resolution was pending nGw. 

Ur. CULLOM. The Senator from Missouri interrnpteu the progress of business by referring to myself, speaking of me, and I think I 

have a right to respond. 

1tlr. VEST. Certainly you have. 

Mr. CULLOU. So far as I am concerned, I have nothing whatever 

to take back with reference to any letters that I have written. If they 

are genuine, I stand by them. The Senator knows that every man in 

the employ of the Government is entitled to thirty days' leave, as 

other Senators have said here, with pay. I did not know at the time 

whether this gentleman was entitled to lea.v.e with pay or not; but I 

asked that he be given pay if it was allowable to be done, and it turned 

out that be was allowed twenty-three d.ays with pay and the balance 

without; and that is all there is of it. 

. The Senator has seen proper, because I sa.id something about this 

Administration yesterday, which I stand by, to drag my letters in here 

in the hope that he might deter me from asserting what I believe to be 

my right to assert on this floor or anywhere else. 

.Mr. VEST. I ask the Senator's attention to the expre.;sion in his 

first letter, which has nothing to do with any leave Qf absence: 

I shall be very grateful to yon for any specio.l favor you m y be able to ex- tend to him, as it will be ofpolitical use to have him in the State if it can be so arranged, after he gets familiar with the work. 

Mr. CULI~OM. Yes, sir; I asked that whatever special favorn .1\Ir. 

Dudley could extend to him, consistent with law and the regulation!', 

should be afforded; and I asserted what was true, that if the gentleman 

came into the State of Illinois he could be of use to the party in the 

State on the stump, and I have nothing further to say on that subject. 

The Senator cbmplains that I and perhaps others have brought Hepublican newspapers in here to show the inconsistency of this Administration, the hollowness of this Administration on the question of 

civil-service reform. I will have another article read which probably 

may sit a little better upon his stomach. It is a Mugwump paper from 

the city of Chicago, a very brief article on the s ubject. Perhaps tile 

Senator will like t hat article read. 
,-

1888. CON.GRESSIONAL BECORD-.SENATE. 8135 

Mr. VEST. Does the Senator hold me responsible for 1\Iogwump 

utte1 ances? 

Mr. CITLLOU. Of course I do. 

1'11r. VEST. If there is anything of the Mugwump about me, I 

would like to know it and get rid of it. 

Tbe Chief Clerk read as follows: 

(Chicago Daily News, August 24, 1888.] 

A LOGICAL RESULT. 

Feov people, even among the mo t offensively partisan Democrats, will regret the c:s:hibition which the Democratic campaign committee has made of-itself in Chic:.~go. It was a. matter of public notoriety tha.t lhe management of the Chi- cago post-office was imbecile almost to the point of being doddering. There was uo DO stbility of blunder which this man9£'ement has not fathomed and tried. It was patent that it ·was clumsy, stupid, and ineffective in every pos- sible direction in which clumsiness, stupidity-; and ineffectiveness could be in- deceatly exhibited. Yet it was into the diplomatic hands of S. Corning Judd, . the ra-chitect of all these failures, that the Democratic committee confided the delicJ.te and d:mgerous task of making the public servants in Chicago stflnd and <leli>er. "'e are not talking now of the immorality of this forced levy. Evid ently neither Judd nor the committee recognizes any immorality iu the tramaetion; they see in it practical politics and nothing else. But we can not help pointin~ out the fatuity which put such a task. as this into the care of the diplomatic Judd. He was just as certain to do those things which neither he nor the committee wanted done-just as certain, by his left-handed, crass ineptitude, to erect the illegalle>y upon the post-office employes into o. public sCflD- dal-:ls though .an asinine exposure of the committee's contempt for the civil- ser>ice law, its shameless defiflnce of t.he letter and the spirit of the Democratic platform, and its impudent breach of President Cleveland's promises were the ends- to which all were working. • The whole aifair was worthy of the meu and the tools. They have got what they desen·ed, and what everyone who knows Mr. Judd would have naturally and I ogica.lly expected. The whole episode would be ludictous if it were not so humiLiating. The spectacle of tile Machia.Yelian Judd covering his tracks by the s~cret and inscrutn.!Jle device of h:J.ving his law partner make the assess- ments; the in~enious idea. of notifying the clerks by postal-card to come and be mulcted; and finally the brilliant strategy which 1\Ir. Judd's partner displayed in unbosomiug himself to a repm·te1·-all go to make a picture of practical poli- tics which we commend to nll practical politicians as an example of what can be d o ne by a man who puts llis mind to it. After all, it is harder to forgi>e an ass 'han a. kna.ve~especia11y an ass that masquerades as a. knaYe and tllen fall at the .fir:-t hurdle and tangles his bind legs in his halter. Perhaps the powers that in tlleir wisdom give us post mas-. ters may learn from this little example some of llie general plans and specific.'\- tions of the postmaster they hM·e gi >en us. 

Mr. CULLO~I. That is from a paper which is supporting this Administration and the re-election of Mr. Cleveland. 

One word further and I will dismiss this subject so far as I am concerned. I did say yesterday tha.t I could not resist the feeling. in view 

of all the circumstances attending the case, that this Administration 

was undertaking to divert the attention of the American people from 

the great issue that is before the people, to wit, whether this .CoUll try 

will maintain the protectiT"e-ta.riff system or adopt a free-trade system; that they were attempting to di>ert the attention of the American people from that issue to another lSSUe entirely foi"eign to it, and 

that after the treaty had been rejected by the Senate after long delay 

and <liscuss.ion, instead of going to the law, as the President ought to 

have done, the law of 1887 that gave him the power of retaliation to 

protect American fishermen, he looked around and forgot almost that 

there was anything wrong in the treatment of American fishermen by 

Canada and bunted up a new excuse and threw that upon the country, and saiQ. if he retaliated at all he wan ted to retaliate for every possible evil that existed between this country and Canada. 

I showed a dispatch tha,t was sent out by Mr. 'l'ownsend, the chairman of the State Democmtic Committee of Ohio, dated the very same 

day that the message came to the Senate, which showed, as I think, 

an effort on the part of the Administration to get up a sort of ~m for 

the Administration upon a different subject from that of the tariff and 

free trade. Hence it was that Mr. Townsend sent the telegram; which 

I will read ag3.in. 

Have prominent Irishmen send congratulatory telegrams to President Cleve- land on his message on tile fishery treaty, and getup demonstration, if possible. J. R. TOWNSE.."fl), 

Chairman Ohio State Oentra.L Committee. 

That dispatch went out from the Democratic State Central Committee of Ohio on the same day that the message came in here, and then 

other dispatches by members of the national committee to the President I read here, and I have others that I might read, and from all 

this I came to the conclusion, as I think every man must, that it was 

simply an effort on the part of the .A,dministration to divert attention 

from the question of protection or free trade to something else, so that 

they might :aot lose the great body of the laboring vote of this country: 

ORDER OF BUSINESS. 

Mr. PLUM.B. I move that the Senate proceed to the consideration 

of House bill 10998. 

The motion was agreed to; and the Senate, as in Committee of the 

Whole, resumed the consideration of the bill (H. R. 10998) making 

appropriations for fortifications and other works of defense, for the armament thereof, for the procurement of heavy ordnance for trial and 

service, and for other purpo15es. 

Mr. PASCO. I gave notice that I would call up the resolution of 

the Senat{)r from New Hampshire [M.r. CHANDLER] on the Louisiana 

elections this morning in order t{) make some remarks upon it, but after 

conference with the Senator from Kansas [Mr. PLUMB] I have con- cluded to wait until after this measure is disposed of. I shall ask that 

the resolution be taken up later in the day or to-morrow morning or 

at some convenient time hereafter. 

Mr. MITCHELL. A few mornings since I introduced a. resolution 

which was laid on the table. I gave notice at the time that I desired 

to submit a few remarks, occupying about fifteen or twenty minutes of 

time-not more than that. I now appeal to the Senator from Kansas in 

charge of the fortifications bill to permit the bill to be laid aside temporarily in order to enable me to do this, while he is getting his 

lunch. 

1\Ir. PLUMB. The suggestion of the Senator about my desire to take 

lunch while he is speaking is entirely gratuitous, because I should certainly stay here and listen to every word he has to say, even losing my 

lunch.for that purpose, which, I believe, is the custom of this body; 

but as the Senator can make his sper.ch any how on the fortifications bill 

if he wants to do so, I am therefore really at his mercy, and of course 

I shall yield to his request. 

Mr. 1\IlTCHELL. I am much obliged to the Senator. I ask that 

the pending order be temporarily laid aside, and that the Senate proceed to the consideration of the resolution offered by me a few days 

since in reference to the disturbances at Corea .. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The resolution will be read. 

Mr. MITCHELL. The resolution has been read, and I ask unanimous consent to modify it so as to conform to the custom. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Senator has the right to modify 

his resolution without unanimous consent. The resolution as modified will be read. · 

DISTURBANGES I~ COREA. 

The Senate proceeded to consider the resolution submitted by Mr. 

MITCHELL on the 22d instant, as modified by him to read as follows: 

Rtsolved, That the President be, and he is hereby, requested, ifnotincomp:J.tible with the public interests, to transmit to the Senate copies of all official c<>rre- spondence between the Department of State and the minister resident and con- sul-general of the United States at Seoul, Corea., and between such Department and the Corean envoy e;rtraordinary and minister plenipotentiary resident in Washington, occurring sinceJanuarylla.st, including that relating to the recent disturbances and alleged massacre of CoreflDS in the streets of Seoul, Corea, on or about June 20,1888, and touching t.he causes inciting thereto, if anyJitlr. l'IIITCHELL. 1\Ir. President, before moving a referenre of this 

resolution to the Committee on Foreign Relations, I desire to detain 

the Senate very briefly in submitting a few observations to which I 

desire to attract the attention of the Senate, and especially that of the 

Committee on Foreign Relations. 

In my judgment, if ever the Governnient of the United States was 

under obligation, either morally or by virtue of treaty stipulation with 

any foreign power, to exert its good offiCes in favor of any struggling 

people or government being unjustly, arbitrarily, and oppressively 

dealt with, then it is now called upon by each of these considerations to 

extend such good offices in a considerate and proper manner to the 

Government and people of Corea. · 

Twelve years ago (in 1876) the Japanese Government, having itself 

some years previously entered into commercial treaties with the United 

States and also with several European nations, entered into a h·eaty 

with Corea, in virtue of which the independence of Corea was distinctly recognized. By its terms several Corean ports, three in number, I believe, were opened to the Japanese, and emba..<lSadors were 

provided for and exchanged between the two countries. This treaty 

also provided that the coasts of Corea, dangerous to navigation, and 

prior to that time unknown to the fleets of commerce, should be examined and surveyed by the Japanese. An international exposition 

between the two countries was also arranged, and was carried out in 

October, 1877, and on a scale and in a manner that would have done 

no discredit to governments whose date of original membership in the 

gre::t.t family of treaty-making nations was many years prior to that of 

either Corea or Japan. 

Subsequently, in 1878, the late Senator Sargent, of California, attracted the attention of the Senate and of the country to the history of 

Corea., the character of its people, the productive susceptibilities of its 

soil, its great mineral resources, and to the importance to the United 

States of establishing commercial relations in that direction; and at his 

instance a resolution was then adopted by tpe Senate authorizing the 

President of the United States to appoint a commissioner to the King 

of Corea to arrange a. treaty of amity and commerce between the United 

States and that government. This movement, though not immediately, 

in due time bore fruit, and four years later, in May, 1882, under the auministration of President Arthur, a treaty of commerce and na\"i,;ation 

between the United States and the Kingdom of Corea, or Chosen, was 

concluded. This treaty was ratified by the UnitedSta.tesSenate Janun.ry 

9, 1882, and then it was that the traditional policy of isolation from the 

world's commerce, which the Empire of Japan had abandoned years before, was renol:mced by Corea. Other treaties with certain European 

powers followed, our treaty with Corea being the first that kingdom entered into with any Christian power. The Government of the United 

States, therefore, is now and has been since January, 1883, in solemn 

treaty stipulations of amity and peace, of commerce and navigation, with 

the Kingdom of Corea. And it may be as well in this connection to inquire briefly as to some of the more material stipulations containeD. in 

that treaty. 

-
8136 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. AUGUST '31, 

And first, it will be observed, it is stipulated in the beginning thatThere shall be perpetual peace and friendship between the President of the United States and tlle King of Chosen, and the citizens and subjects of their re- spective Governments. 

But not. only so; it is provided in the very next section, in Article I, 

as follows: 

If other powers deal unjustly or oppressively with either government, the other will exert their good offices, on being infortned of the case, to bring about an amicable arrang·ement, thus showing their friendly feelings. 

In no part or portion of this treaty from its ·beginning to its end is 

the dependency of Corea. upon the Chinese Empire referred to, much less 

recognized, either directly or indirectly. And in all its stipulations the 

Kingdom of Corea is by our Government dealt with as an absolutely 

independent power in all its foreign relations. Not only so; it was stipulated that the high contracting powers might each appoint diplomatic representatives to reside at the court of the other; and furthermore, that each might appoint consular representatives at the ports of 

the other which are open to foreign commerce at their own convenience. 

In the treaty, then, taken as a whole, and in all correspondence con- nected with and accompanying it, while the fact was not attempted to 

be concealed by either government that Corea was in a sense a state 

t1·ibutary to China, and with which relation the United States had no concern, the idea that a state of vasRalage existed or that Corea was a dependent or vassal state of China found no countenance or recognition 

whate'rer; but on the contrary it was understood, and all the negotiations proceeded upon the assum ptio that Corea had always in the past, 

notwithstanding her tributary relation to China as a state, exercised 

through her King full sovereignty in all matters of internal administration and foreign relations. And it was on this basis that our treaty 

relations with Corea were entered into, and consequently, notwithstanding the absence of express tTeaty stipulations to that effect, it is quite 

evident that by virtue of such treaty, as a whole, the claim of Corean 

vassalage to China was completely oYerthrown so far as our Government 

is concerned. And not only so; but the Chinese Government in giving 

this treaty recognition, as it unquestionably did, after vain attempts 

while the terms of the treaty were sub judice between Corea and the 

United States, to secure, either by express or implied terms, recognition 

of the claim of a state of vassalage or dependency on China, expressly 

waived and abandoned, both in law and morals, any such claim. 

Professor Wharton, in disc~ing the effect of ou~ treaty relations .with 

Corea, in paragraph 64, volnme 1, of Wharton's D1gest of InternatiOnal 

Law, makes this statement: 

The existence of international relations between the two countries (the United 

Slates and Corea) as equal contracting parties is to be '\"iewed simply as an ac- cepted fact, and the independence of Corea. of China is to be regarded by the United States as now established. 

The late Secretary of Sta.te, Mr. Frelin~huysen, in his communication Rubmitting the Corean treaty to the President to be forwarded to 

the Senate for ratification, refers to the contingency. of such an asser- tion M enforcement of Chinese sovereignty over Corea by the Imperial 

Empire as would destroy the independence of that kingdom as some- thing i;he very contemplation of which was not allowable. Mo~:eovtr, the diplomatic course of China with the United States and 

with Qther nations with which that Government is in treaty relation 

bas lwen such as to repel the assumption of the existence of a state of 

Con1an vassalage or dependence on China. China has never claimed 

that the Corean Kingdom was embraced in treaties between other governments and the Chinese Empire; nor has the Imperial Government 

of China ever admitted in her negotiations and diplomatic relations 

with other governments or otherwise that the empire was t·esponsible 

for '>r represented the Kingdom of Corea. 

'I he Chinese Government recognized the treaty, moreover1 of February, 1876, entered into between Corea and Japan, and yet the :first article of that treaty contains the following significant stipulation: 

Chosen (Core:~o) being an independent state, enjoys the same soverei~n righ.ts as O.oes Japan, and that their intercourse shall thenceforward be earned on m terms of equality and courtesy. 

The existence of the relation of suzerain and vassal between China 

and Corea finds therefore no warrant or support in any of the treaty 

st\pulations between either of these governments and any foreign power, nor yet by anything in connection with the history of the two governments, or that of their relations the one to the other for a century past. 

'l'he one has· not contributed to the other, either in men or money or 

"L~.rms, in aid of the prosecution of wars, either of invasion or defense. 

Not one of the well-known badges of dependence or va-ssalage is to be 

traced in the present relations or status, or in the recent past history 

of the relations of the two governments; none of the disabilities or disqualifying conditions of the lack of power to enter into treaty negotiations, to send out embassadors, to establish consulships, to levy wat:, 

or conclude peace, without doing so through a suzerain, which must 

necessarily obtain in the case of a dependent or vassal state, is found 

to exist in the case of Corea. On the contrary, Corea stands to-day in 

l1istory and in virtue of international law as much an independent government as do any of the great Christian powers of the world. She 

stands to-day in solemn treaty stipulation with several of the leading 

Christian powers. Her ambassadors reside in the capitals of the most 

important and influential nations in Christendom, including that of the 

United States. All these great governments, includingonrown, which 

(I mean the latter) regards with disfavor that principle of national 

serfdom which recognizes the right of one government or conntry or people to ensl:l.ve another government .or country or people, and which 

looks with.favor upon the doctrine of home rule and self-government 

and control, and of independence in the fullest sense of that significant 

term, have stipulated with Corea that if any power deals unju hly or oppressively wHh t.he Coreans, then their good offices will be exerted 

in their behalf to the end that perpetual peace and friendship may be 

maintained. 

It is believed, and the correspondence called for by the pending reso-· lntion will doubtless show the fact, that for some time past the Imperial Government of China has, through its chief officers and representatives, and especially and particularly its representative at the city of 

Seoul, been contemplating the subjugation and entire absorption of 

Corea; that the conduct of that power and of its chief representative 

at Seoul has during the past two years, and especially more recently, 

been of such a systematically arbitrary, if not indeed wholly reprehensible character towards Corea and the Corean representatives, not ex- cepting the King himself, as to be grossly unjust, unneighborly, and 

oppressive; and that the ultimate intention is upon the part of China 

to dethrone the Kin~, abolish the existing government, and assume complete and absolute dictatorship over the Corean peninsula. 

With a view, therefore, of securing reliable information in reference 

to this whole subject, and in no sense in any unfriendly spirit towards our minister resident and consul-general at Seoul, who is represented as a most able and intelligent gentleman, and as demeaning himself in a. manner highly creditable to himself and all concerned, in view 

of the delicate subject with which he is called upon to deal, or without 

in any manner wishing by this to criticise the honorable Secretary of 

State, because I know of no reason whatever for any such criticism in 

connection with this matter, is the purpose of the introduction of the 

pending resolution. 

In this connection I desire to state that the Hon. Owen N. Denny, a citizen of the United States and of the State of Oregon, formerly 

United States consul at Tien-Tsin, China, subsequently promoted to 

the position of United States consul-general at Shanghai, China, which 

position l1e held severai years, when he resigned voluntarily, a gentJe- man of learning and experience, both as a lawyer and diplomat, 

thoroughly versed in international law and in political and commercial 

affairs in the E::J.St, and in all matters pertaining to the existing relations between China and Corea, and withal an American in every fiber 

of his nature, has for nearly three years past been in the service of the 

Corean King in the capacity of "adviser to the King and director of 

foreign affairs.'' I hold in my hand a very able and highly interesting 

briefprepared by Judge Denny on the relations existing between the 

two Governments of Corea and China, in which not only a careful history of these relations is given, but also the great public question as to 

the precise character of the relations sustained by Corea to the Chinese 

Empire is discussed with learning and ability. This relation is, as I 

believe, very correctly stated by Judge Denny to be that of a mere t1·-ibutary state, m which none of the rights of sovereignty or independence are eliminated or destroyed, and not that of a dependent or vassal 

government without any of the prerogatives of sovereignty attaching. 

I desire to incorporate this paper into and make it a part of my re- marks. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER (1\Ir. DoLPH in the chair). Is there 

objection? The Chair hears none, and it is so ordered. 

The paper is as follows: CHINA AND COREA, 

(By 0. N. Denny, adviser to the King and director of foreign affairs.] 

.A. vacancy having occurred in the position of foreig·n adviset· to tllc King of Corea and inspector of cust<Jms, and His l't!ajesty having requested his excel- lency Li Chung Tang to procure the services of another, I was in July, 1885, 

invited to the post. l entered upon the duty of adviser, the customs bn:mch of the position having been placed under the customs of Chinn. before my arrival in the East, with the assurance that in my efforts to preserve peace an <.I good or• der and in all that pertained to the prosperit.y of Corea I should ha ye the cor- dial support of the viceroy, an assurance which, I regret to say, has not been verified. On t.he contrary,f1·om the very first, I have met with almost every con· ceivable kind of opposition from Chinese sources. The failure of the vice roy to keep his promise in this 1·egard I am at n. loss to underatand, unless it is due to the Pekin Government's disapproval of his Corean policy. In view of this and the fact that China's course seems so unwarrantable and unjust, as well ns against the best interest of Corea and China, I determined to avail myself of the present occasion to publicly point out-all efforts of a. private character having failed- the dangerous ground China. is trying to occupy, antl to present Corea's side of the controversy, with a. view to correcting, if possible. some of the accepted fal- acies on the situation in the Peninsular Kingdom and its relations with the Celes- tial Empire, which have been so often misrepresented in the native and some of the foreign newspapers in China. for thcpasttwoor th1·ee years, through design or unuer a misapprehension of the law as well a.'!! the facts. In doing this the harsher the criticisms may appear, the more it is to be regretted that tlley are merited. • First I shall notice China's claim to vass!l.l or dependent relations with Corea; 

second, the f01·mer's treatment of her so-called vassal; third, the charl{e that the King is weak and unfit to govern the country; and before I have fimshecl I shall endeavor to show that the former is about as fictitious as the latter is with- oui foundation. As Corea, in the exercise of a right which none but sovereign and independent stat-es possess, concluded a. treaty offl'iendshjp, navigutjon, and commerce with Japan, independently of China, and later on with 'Vestel'n co u n- tries in accordance with international usage, the rights acquired and the ob!~ 

gations assumed must be determined by the laws which haye always governed 
1888. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. ~137 

the enforcement of such compacts. In the light of these d efined and well-set- tled rules it will be in order to inquire into some of the rights, powers, and re- sponsi bilities of a sovereign state and how vassal relations are established, as well as into the duties and obligations a dependent state owes to its suze rain, in order to more clearly determine the political status of Corea. In general terms a sovereign or independent sta te is defined by almost all a uLhors on inter- nationa.l jurisprudence tQ be any nation or people, whateYe r the character or form of its constitution may be, which governs itself independently of other nations, while Wheaton, who ought to be the best aut-hority in this case, as China has adopted him as her standard author, says, "Sovereignty is the supreme power by which any Sta te is governed; this supreme power may be exercised either internally or externally. Internal sovereignty is that which is inherent in the people of any state or is vested in its ruler by its municipal constitution or fun- damental laws. External sovereignty consists in the independence of one po- litical society in respect to all other political soc iet-ies, and it is by tlle exercise of this branch of sovereignty tha t the internat iona l relations of one politica.l 

society are maintained in peace and in war with all other political societies." A nation which has always managed its internal as well as external concerns in its own way, free fTom the interference or dictation of any foreign power, is Juridically independent and must· be ranked in the category of sovereign states. The unerring test, however, of a. soYereign and independent state is its right to negotiate, to conclude treaties of friendship, navigation, and commerce, to exchange public mibist.ers, and to declare war and peace with other sovereiga and independent powers. T hese are r ightsandconditionscompa tible and con- sistent with sovereignty which, when possessed by a state, place it in the great 

family of independent nations, while states which do not pos es::~ s uch powers rnu~t be ranked as semi-independent or dependent, according to the expre ssed terms of the agreement. An advocate of vassa lage in the North China Daily N ews, some months ago,.Jn support of his position, used substantially the fol- lowing language: "At the end of the seventeenth and beginning of the ei,ght- c cnth centuries the sanction of the Chinese Emperor had to be obtained before the successor chosen by the King of Co1·ea could receive the title of heir-appar- e nt, and then could not assume the title of King until it was conferred on him by Pekin." 

The correspondent states the case much stronger than the facts warrant. If he had put it in the form of a request, a graceful a ct b;v a tributary state , rather than on the basis of an imperative obligation to the Peking Govern ment,he wou I d have been more in accord with the facts, but whether he over or under stated them makes no material difference, as relations of vassalage were never estab- lished by the commands of a superior in exceptional ca~es or through the dif- ferential acts of an inferior. Liu Kin, Anam and Burmah, in the history of Chi- na's pre<l<'lrious claims to vassalage over those States, did thP. same thing, and to-day the first named forms a part of the sovereignty of the Empire of Japan, the second belongs to the Republic of France, while the third recently passed t o the sove re ign control of Great Britain. "heaton on the Law of Nations states the case infinit-ely stronger against the correspondent than the latter does in favor of China's contention when he says: "The sovereignty of a particular state is not impaired by its occasional obedience to the commands of other states, o1· even the habitual influence exercised by them over its councils. It is only when this obedience or this influence assumes the form of express compact that the sovereignty of the state inferior in power is legally affected by its connec- tio n with the other." John Austin, a modern wliter of considerable celebrity on international law, in one of his able lectures delivered in London in 1873, states the case with equal clearness when he says: ".A. feeble state holds its independence precariously or .at the will of the powerful states to wboseaggressionsitisobnoxious, and since it is obnoxious to its aggressions it and t he bulk of its subjects render obedience to commands which they occasionally express or intimate; but since the .obedi- ence and commands are comparatively few and rare they are not sufficient to constitute tlle relation of sovereignty and subjection between the powerful states and the feeble states with its subjects. In spite of those commands a.ud in spite of that obedience the feeble state and its subjects are an independent 

politica l society whet·eofthe powerful states are not the sovereign portion. Al- though the powerftii states are permanently superior and although the feeble state is permanently inferior there is neither the habit of command nor a habit of obedience on the part of the latter; and although the latter is unable to de- fend and maintain its independence, the latter is independent of the former in fact or practice." The only -rassal or dependent relations recognized by the law of nations are those resulting from conquest, 1nterm1.tional agt·eement, or convention of some ki nd, and as such relations do not exist between the two countries by virtue of citller of these requirements, and in all reasonable probability willne\-er bees- tablished by agreement or convention, it remains to be seen whether they will exist-in future by conquest. Corea, ho"'ever, is a tributary sta.te of China; re- lations which have been sustained in the past with the utmost good faith, and which Corea desires in all sincerity to continue so long as China's treatment is generous, friendly, and just. But the tributary relations one state may hold to another do not and can not in any degree aflect its sovereign and independent r ights. For this reason the tribute annually paid by Corea to China does not impair Ber sovereignty or independence any more than the tribute now paid 

l>y the British Government to China on account of Burmah impairs the sover- eign and independent rights of the British Empire; or the tribute formerly paid 

by the principal maritime powers of Europe to the Barbary States affected the sovereign rights and independence of those European powers. Wheaton says concerning the Barbary States that" while they are anomalous in ~haracter, yet their occasi.on11.l obedience to the commands of the Sultan, ac- companied with irregular payments of tribut-e, does not prevent them from be- ing considered by the Christian powers of Europe and America. as independent states with whom the international relations of war and peace are maintained on the same footing with other Mohammedan sovereignties." There are good and valid reasons why Corea desires to prefer the traditional relations of close friendship which have so happily existed between the two countrie,s so long. Theil- geographical positions under friendly intercourse make them a source of strength to each other, while the fact that· Corea. has drawn largely upon China's populat-ion, language, religion, laws, education, arts, manners, and custom, which have contributed so much to the sum total of Corean civilization, all combine to strengthen the chain of attachment and cause her to look to China as in the past for friendly advice rather than in any other direction; and in my judgment nothing will interrupt this friendship but a cont-inuation of the illegal and hig h-handed treatment Corea is now receiving at the hands of lhe Chinese and their studied and persistent attempt to destroy Corean soYereignty by ab- sorbing the country. H was due to the faith which the King had in China's professio ns of friend- ship for Corea that induced His l\Iajesty, when the advisability of mak ing treat- ies with western countries was pressed upon him, to take counc.l of th e dis- tinguished viceroy at Tien-Tsin, and I know of my own knowled ge t hat it was due to a similar faith in the king that induced the Chung Chang to adv.se the establishment of such relations, as the surest means"of impro,-in;; the condition of the country and people, as well as preserving the sove reig11 r ig hts of his king·dom; and later on, when the first of the w estern trea ties came to be nego- tiated-which \vas with America-the viceroy was invited a s t he frieud o f the king, having the broadest experience in such imp orta nt matte rs, to ns;;i t in thq n egotiations. Two draughts were submitted to that convention forconsidcra tion, one by the viceroy and the other by the· special envoy who conducted the ne- gotiations for the.United States. The very first clause in the viceroy's draught 

was a demand for the negotiation of vassal or dependent relations between China and Corea., which the agent of the United States Government declined to consider or even discuss fm·ther than to say that as his mission was to make a treaty of commerce and friendship with an independent state, such a treaty be would make or none at all. Notwithstanding this, the viceroy urged the ap- proval of this dependent clause to a point beyond which he could not go with- out breaking off negotiations, when be yielded and the t-reaty was then con- cluded upon the basis of other independent states, and was signed at Chemulpo 

May 22, 1882. Even if vassalage had be en acknowledged in the American treaty by the negotiators, it would not have received the approval either of the United States Government or the King of Corea. The next treaty t.bat Corea made was in October following with China and at the hitter's request, and while th~ t-reaty has been d enominated "rules for the land and water commerce between the trading populations of China and Corea," and while there is the usual mystification and vagueness pervading it that char- acterizes all of China's intercourse with the peninsular king·dom, y e t H comes n earer being :1. treaty of friendship, navigatiOn, and commerce than anything else, as I shall endeavor to point out further on. Treaties with other countries foJJowed in quick succession in the general tenor of the American one, which were, however, discuEsell and concluded, not at Tien-Tsin, but in Seoul, without reference to the viceroy or the Chinese Government. Had vassala ge existed between the two countries in accord with international jurispruden ce at the tim e the American treaty was m ade, does any one, at aU versed in public af- fairs, suppose that the viceroy would have tried so hard to procure their ac- knowledgment by a. friendly power in a public treat.y? No; the attempt was based solely on the u tter weakness of the contention, which no one appreciated more fully than the viceroy himself. .After the ratification of the American treaty the question of dependency, for the moment at least, se ems to have been abandoned: at all events arrange- ments wet·e at once made for the enforcement of the stipulations of the treaty. Ports were opened. a customs service established by the King, with inspector, 

commissioners, and a fuJJ staff of subordinate officers for the work. Diplomatic 

representatives were appointed as treaties were ratified, who from time to time presented their credentials and took their respective places at His Majesty's court in Seoul, and among them was the representative of China, with the title of His Imperial Majesty's commissioner printed on his card, and appointed in pursuance of the treaty already referred to. This official continued in an unassuming way to represent his government upon terms of equality with his colleagues for more than two years, when he was succeeded by the present Com- missioner Yuan for supposed meritorious services rendered his government in the disturbance of 188i, who for a. short time followed in the footstep3 of his 

predecessor; but the honor so suddenly thrust u p on him seems to have inflated him. to sucn an extent that serious consequences might have resulted to him had not his indiscreet enthusiasm found vent in the resurrection of the depend- ency scheme, which for the credit of his government ought never again to have come to the surface, for if the conclusion of the Japanese and American treaties upon the basis of Corean independence, every art1cle of the latter having been approved by the viceroy, followed by similar treaties with the 1ea.di1Jg powers of Europe, and China having shared in the practical operations for two and a half years did not honorably settle it, the question ought finally to have disappear_ed when tlle Li-Ito convention adjourned, by the terms of which China disposed of whatever right she had left without the consent of Japan to send troops to Corea, the only means as a. last resort every independent nation pos- sesses of enforcing its sovereign rights when assailed or called in question. Some time in 1885, after I had been invited to Corea, but before my arrival, a policy of absorption, gradual or otherwise, seems to have been decided upon by the Pekin Government. The position of advisor and inspector of customs was seggregated, and the customs service passed to the control and direction of the Chinese service under the plausible assurance that it would be better and more economically administered, and that there was no political sign ificance to be attached to the change, and, while the service has been honestly s.nd well administered under the change, yet no one act since the conclusion of the trea- ties has contributed so much to mislead the public .mind in regard to the true relations existing between China and Corea politically than this ill-adYiaed one on the part of the Corean Government. Neither in the mean while on-as Com- missioner Yuan idle, for it was about this time that he adopted as a title for his legation that miserable misnomer and subterfuge," R esidency," and in the most insolent way claimed to advise and even direct the King in long-winded me- morials, and upon public and official occasions to assume the role of host in- stead of guest on the flimsy pretext that he is "at home" in Corea. But it is asserted that vassalage is distinctly acknowledged in the treaty sometimes called the overland trade ree-ulations above alluded to. Now, I assert with much confidence that if that convention establishes anything, so far as this ques- tion is concerned, it is exactly the contrary to this. While there are only eight rather lengthy articles in that treaty, yet as al- ready observed they cover about all that is necessazy in an ordinary treaty of friendship, commerce, and navigation. Under the first article China. has dis- patched her commissioner with diplomatic powers to Seoul, and consuls to all the open ports to guard the interests of Chinese merchants. The second article yields to China ex-territorial privileges wr her subjects similar to those enjoyed 

by the citizens and subjects of t-he most favored nations. .Article III permits the merchant ships of both countries to visit the open ports of the other, fixes the duties to be paid, provides for relief in case of ship-wrecks, re~ulates the conduct of fishing vessels, etc. Article IV permits merchants of either coun- try to visit the open ports of t.he other for the purposes of trade, where they may purchase lands and houses, provides tonnage dues as well as re-export 

tariff, inhibits trade at the capital of both countries, compels merchants wish- ing to purchase native produce in the interior to first obtain permits of their consuls, while persons desiring to travel in either country for pleasure must be provided with passports . .Article Vll provides for the dispatch once a month to Corea of a vessel belonging to the Chinal\Ierchants' Company, and permits Chinese men-of-war to 

repair to the open ports of Corea for the purpose of protecting Chinese consuls and other residents. In the text of this treaty there is not only no reference to vassalage or depend- ency, but the demands and concessions made exclude the existence of such re- lations at the time it was concluded. If China believed in the validity of vassal relations, can it be supposed that provisions would have been made for exterri- torial privilee-es and passports for Chinese subjects in Corea? Certainly not, for to have done so would have presented the spectacle of a sovereign state demand- ing exterritorial rights and privileges for her own subjects within her own sov- ereignty, which is the very acme of absurdity. The only reference tQ vassalage is iu a preamble published at the head of the treaty, whichmayormay not have been in its present form at the time the treaty was signed. This extraordinary preamble begins as follows: " Corea has long been one of our vassal states, and in all that concerns right-s and observances there are already fixed prescriptions which require no change." Can this be the langnageofa.highjointconvention 

created, not to sign a way the rights of a sovereign nation, but to protect them in its intercourse with a neighboring state·· It seems rather the ex parte assertion of a fallacy, than any proof of the exist- ence of a fact. But the closing paragrapll of this preamble, if anything, is still moreremark:able. !treads: "Itisunde rstoodthatthepresentrules * " * are to be viewed in the light of a favor granted by China to a dependent state and are not in the category of favored-nation treatment applied to other states." Is it a favor to Corea for that state to grant exterritorial privileges tQ the subjects of 
j 

CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENAT.E. AUGUST 31, 

China while the latter lays claim to vassalage over the former? Is it a favor to Corea ·to permit Chinese men-of-war to repair to her open ports to protect Chinese consuls and other residents? And. finally, is it a favor to overrun the Corc11.n capital with Chinese merchants while there is not a Corean merchan~ 

in all China? There is an additional reason why this preamble must be viewed with s~picion., and that is this: as the viceroy was one of the plenipotentiaries who concluded the treaty it is "quite out of the range of reason to believe that that distinguished otllcial could have been a party to the assertion that the rules alluded to in the preamble "are not in the category of favored-nation treatment applied to other states," for hardly five months before this he discussed and sanctioned as the professed friend of Corea the fourteenth article of the Ameri- can treaty, which provides as follows: "The high contracting powe.rs hereby agre e that should at any time the King of Chosen grant to any nation or to the merchants or citizens of any nation any right, privilege, or favor connected either with navigation, commerce, political, or other intercourse which is not conferred by this treaty such right, privilege, or favor shall freely inure to the benefit of the United States, its public officers, merchants, and c itizens." But said the most eminent statesman of the Celestial Empire recently: "Corea is a vassal of China's, because upon the conclusion of treaties with western countries the King gave to the plenipotentiaries who condncted the negotiations aulo- graph letters to be conveyed to the heads of their respective governments in which such relations were admitted." . H ere again I must take issue with the assertion, even though it is made by so eminent a personage as Li Chung Tang. It is true thatjustprior to signing the .American treaty an autograph letter was _handed down by the King to be de- livered with it to the President of the United States, but that letter admitted nothing more than the King now asserts, namely, that Corea. is a tributary state of China, but which, as I have endeavored to point out, does not affect, much less destroy, the sovereign rights of a. state, while it asserts in languagethatcau not be misunderstood the sovereign and independent character which the Co- rean Go>ernment has always maintained. Subsequent autograph letters given 

byl I is Majesty were, in eftect, the same as the first one, so far at least as there- lations of Corea to China are concerned. The following is a correct translation of the letter of the King to the President of the United States: "J lis Majesty, the King of Chosen, herewith makes a communication. Chosen has been from ancient times a state tributary to China, yet hiLherto full sover- eignty has been exercised by the Kings of Chosen in all matters of internal ad- min istration and foreign relations. Chosen and the United States in establishing now by mutual consent a. treaty are dealing with each other upon a basis of equality. The King of Chosen distinctly pledges his own sovereign powers for the complete enforcement in good faith of all the stipulations of the treaty in accordance with international law. .A.s re,.,.o-ards the various duties which de- . volYe upon Chosen as a. tributary stat-e to China, with these the United Stntes has no concern whatever. Having appointed envoys to negotiate a treaty, it appears to be my duty in addition thereto to make this preliminary declaration. 

MAY 15,1882. 

To the President of the United States: 

Whatever interpretation the advocates of vassalage may choose to put upon the plain, candid, and unmistakable language contained in the above letter, or however much they may attempt to twist or pervert its Ineaning, it is perfectly clear that the American Government has given it a construction strictly in a.c- cor<l with its phraseology as well as spirit., for they now hold that, under the treaty of friendship and commerce which accompanied it, the question of Corea's vassalage to China bas been definitely settled so far at leas.t as that govern?lent is concerned. In paragraph 64, first volume of Wbarton'sD1gestof International Law oftbe United States, the following language is used by the Government: "Tbo existence of international relations between the two countries (the United States and Corea) as equal contracting parties is to be viewed simply as an ac- cepted fa.ct," and "the independence of 9<>rea of China is to ~e regarded by the United States as now established." Ne1ther does the .Amencan Government stand alone in this regard, for at least two other great powers claiming relations to the peninsula, equal in importance politically as well as commercially to those claimed by China, insist on maintaining the same .sovereignty for Corea that the United States does,. whil_e it is the solemn joint declaration of Japan and Cor o., as expre~ed in the nrdt ar.ticle of. their treaty, conelud~d February, 1876, whi ch declares that, •• Chosen, bemg an mdependent stat-e, enJoys the same sov- erei ,•n rie:hts as does Japan, and t.hat their intercourse shall thenceforward be carr7ed on in terms of equality and courtesy." Independently of the treaties wbi eh have been made with Corea, the historical relations of that country with China, under the present dynasty-at leas~ for the last two hundred of its reign- do uot admit the existence of any such conditions toward each other as suzerain and vassal. ·when these relations are held by states in the le~l international acceptation of the term, that which disturbs the heart of the sovereign affects the pulse of the vassal, and yet so far as is known neither the wars which have been waged 

against China by foreign states, nor her rebellions, nor internal dl.esensions have apparently disturbed or concerned Corea any more than if one nation had been locnted near the north pole and the other in the tropics. .And yet it was the duty of Corea as a. vassal of t."hina to have furnished an army from her hundreds of thon ands of soldiers which she bas had or could have raised at any stage of her civi ization as well as munitions of war, to aid China in the hour of her greatest 

need; but not a soldier, gun, or dollar seem to have crossed over from Corea for that purpose. In addition to this important fact, if euch relations ever existed, theY ought certainly to have left their imprint on the civilization of Corea, either upO'n the national emblems, coins, laws, or in some other way as public notice to other nations of China's responsibility when grievances were to be redressed or wrongs atoned, as well as an acknowledginent on Corea's part of the ac- cephnce of such relations. To those who are versed in in ternationala:ffairs Corea can not be considered o. d~pendent state, for the reason that the law and the facts have placed her in the column of sovereign and independent states, where sbewill remain, unless, through the force of superior numbers, she is taken out of it. Corea has the 1·i~bt of negotiation; a va sal state has not. Corea has concluded treaties of fnepdsbip, commerce, and navigation with other sovereign and independent states without reference to China, which a vassal ca.n not do; and in virtue of those treaties has dispatched public ministers to the courts of her respective 

treaty powers, while vassal states can not even appoint consuls-general, but only consuls and commercial agents. Corea has the right to declare war or peace, which a vassal can not do except through its suzerain. China under her treaty is represented at the Corean court by a diplomatic officer, and by con- snl.s at all the open ports, and when the interests of the Corean Government de- Inand it they will be similarly represented in China, or friendly intercourse will surely cease to exist between the two governments. The following lan- guage of Bluutshli, a modern international jurist of great clearness, is forcibly 

applied here. He says: "Inasmuch as sovereignty tends to unity, such distinctions be- tween v:~.SSS.l sovereigntv and sovereign sovereignty can not subsist long. His tory shows us the truth of this principle. During the middle ages a. quantity of vassal states existed both in Europe and .Asia.. To-day they have nearly all disappeared because they have been transformed into sovereign states or have been absorbed by more powerful states. International law ought to keep an l\CCOunt of their development. It ought to r6$pect it. It ought not to contrib- ute to retard it by seeking to perpetuate the unsustainable Cormalitiea of an antiquatedJurity." International law will keep an account of their development 

too, and in its vigilance for the rights of tbewe.akwill keep an account of Corea also in her struggle for the maintenance of independent statehood. After hav- ing been by the great nations of the international world literally dragged from that seclusion which had for so many centuries enveloped the little kingdom in mystery to join the family of civilized nations under the express guaranty of assistance in the event of oppression or unjust treatment, those powers will surely not permit the stultification of this assurance by nil owing their younger member to be strangled at the very threshold of its international life. China's friend and ally Corea desires to be, but her voluntary slave never. The .Austro-Hnngariau minister of state, M. Kalnoky, lately said, ".A vassal state in the nineteenth century is an anachronism." Howeverthismay be, the times will indeed be sadly out of joint when China succeeds by her peculiar methods in establishing vassalage with Corea; not only so, but when she does a new chapter will have to be added to international jurisprudence, the principles of which ~>uch well-known expounders as Grotius, Vattel, and Wheaton never comprehended. Even for China at this late date, after yielding the point in the treaties, and until recently acquie cllig in the execution of all their provisions, declining re- sponsibility for Corea's cond net at times when responsibility stood for something and haviug concluded a treaty with Corea herself, now to claim the existence of dependent relations is not only to abuse language and offend intelligence, but it is also an attempt to defy internntionnl precedents. But perhaps the most careless and inexcusable assertion in relation to this question is the one that the Corcan Government admits its va alage without any qualifications whatever, for nothing is further from the truth; and when the King, under well-considered advice, appointed a minister to Japan, and af- terward the plenipotentiaries to Europe and America, in order if possible to bre..'\k up the pernicious rueddlesomeness of the Chine_e with Corean affairs, and which met with such stubborn opposition from the Peking Government, as well as ndverse criticism in certain public journals in the East, His Majesty empha- sized by that public act his denial of this fallacious statement. Apparently there is no limit to the tricks and devices resorted to by the advocates of vassalage. A con:espondent of the Mainichi Shimbun.writing to that paper on the 17th of November last, seems to have fallen a victim to one of these, for he says; "It appears that a convention on the appointment by Corea of ministers in foreign countries bas been concluded between her and China, and that it consists of the following three at'ticles : " First. The Corean minister of state shall, before sending a minister abroad, ask advice of the Chinese minister in Corea. "Second. Should the Corean minister abroad have occasion to communicate with the repre~entative of any other foreign power in the same country on a matter of business be shall consult with tha Chinese minister in that country. •· Third. The Corean minister of state shall, no matter what the official rank of a minister appointed by them to a foreign country may be, not allow him tQ take precedence over tbe 'Chlnese representative in the same country." The onJy document which could be tortured into anything like the above articles is the following- telegraphic instructions from the viceroy to Commis- sioner Yuan about the 5th of November last: "First. After arriving at his post the Cot·ean representative has to call at the Chinese legation to ask the ass15tance of the minister and to go with the Corean represen'tative to the foreign office to introduce him, after which he may call where he likes. "Second. If there happen to be festivities at the court, or anoffi.cial gathering, or any dinner, or t.he health of some one is drunk, or in meeting ~gether, the Corean representative has always to take a lower place than the Chinese repre- sentative. 

"Third. If there happen to be any important or serious question to discuss, the Corean representative has first to consult secretly with the Chinese minister and both have to talk over the matter and think together. This rule is compul• sory, arising from the dependent relations, but as this does not concern other governments, they will not be able to inquire into the matter. At present the guestion (sending ministers) has not been decided by imperial decree. They 

(the Coreans) have to be advised in a friendly spirit. China and Corea have to cherish for each other feelings of relationship. Ministers are selected from among the mandarins of reputation; therefore con.fidence and respect have to be shown them, and this is the way Corean representatives should treat the rep- resentatives of China. This has to be communi~ated to the Corean foreign 

office, then to be handed over to the King, who must order his representatives to act accordingly." But notwithstanding the above command the King did not "order his repre- sentatives to act accordingly." ms:r.Iajestyreplied substantially that while his ministers would be instructed to show due respect and deference to the minis- t~rs of China, yet as he had appointed, in pursuance of all treaties with Corea, full ministers, he could not now change their titles without giving cause for un- favorable comment as well as unjust suspicions. Having, therefore, appointed full ministers, they should, in their presentation at court, be governed by the rules of etiquette which govern the presentation of the ministers from other countries • .Accordingly the original instructions to the Ininisters, which do not contain any of the above conditions, were permitted to stand. .As a. matter of fact the Corean minister to Washington was presented to the President by the honorable Secretary of State a.nd to the Secretary of Stat~ entirely independent of the Chinese minister, which caused the latter to telegraph t-o the viceroy at Tien-tsin, who, in turn, telegraphed to Yuan in Seoul, who, with his usual tac- tics, undertook to stir up the president of the foreign office, but all to no pur- pose. 

Neither will the minister to Europe be presented at court by the Chinese min- isters. Even if such an anomalous proceeding were attempted it would be hardly carried out for tnere is no country of respectability, jealous of its na- tional honor, that will care to set the absurd and unprecedented example of re- ceiving a plenipotentiary, envoy, or minister of any sort from a. vassal state. Even the so-called memorial (letter) which the .King addressed to the Em perm· of China, in answer to questions from Peking explaining his reasons for as well as his right to send ministers to Europe and America, isre~arded by China and by vassalage advocates as another link in the chain which they hope is to bind Oorea to the Celestial Empire. The trouble seems to arise from this: the lan- guage used by the King to e:xpress b.is tributary relations is persistently and erroneously interpreted to mean vassal relations by China and her supf!orters. 'Vhen the King refers in the so-called memorial to the Emperor, to trlbuta.ry envoys and plenipotentiaries, he is entlrely consistent with international jurisprudence as applied by other nations in their intercourse with each other, while China's appellations of vassal envoys and plenipotentiaries is a misnomer be- cause enUrely inconsistent with the laws of civilized nations. Such laws do not recognize vassal envoys, plenipotentiaries, or ministers of any kind, for the reason that vassal states have the power to create only con- suls and commercial agents. In this connection there is another trick which deserves attention, and that is this, letters or documents written or translated to suit the occasion, are frequently published in the press of China purporting to be from the King of Corea., inferentially if not positively admitting Corea's vassalage. In answer to such statements I am informed, upon the very best authority, t-hat the King bas never admitted, in document or otherwise, the ex- istence of such relations, and further, if anything bas been admitted by any official of the government at any time which even implies vassalage, it is with- out authority and void. The King knows only too well the object of the insid- ious conduct of China towards his country; aside from this, he can not be in· 
! ~ 

, 1888. CONGRESSIONAL REOORD--SENATE. 8139 

duced or intimidated into admitting a IUI.tional fallacy. Even if dependent re- lations couJd be created by admissions, &Ild the King, under the threatening, 

violent, and criminal treatment· of China for two and a. half years past, were to admit vassalage in the most abject way, it would not be binding upon his gov- ernment, for admissions under duress are not only no evidence of a fact, but they are n o t even admissions. Other independent states with but few commercial interests to protect and no questions of sovereignty to settle, dispatch to foreign countries public ministers, and nothing is said against it; but when the King of Corea, in accordance with the expressed stipulations in all the treaties with other independent powers, does the same thing a. perfect shower of invective greets the public ear- from some I!!,Uarters, while from others more mild the act is characterized as mis- chievous and ill-n.dvised: thatitwasforcingto the front a. question which ought to have been kept in the background, while the King and his advisers turned their attention to the development of the resources of the country. It is quite true that the question was forced to the front, not by the King and his ad dsers, but by the tyranny and oppression of China, largely through the conduct of Com- missioner Yuan which, for petty schemes, criminality, injustice, and brutality, has seldom, if ever, been equaled in the annals of international intercourse. 'Vith a view to placing the heel of China on the neck of Corea he has not only opposed almost every e1fort which has been made in the direction of internal de,·elopmcnt, but he has, through the mercenary brigade which he always keeps abont him, brougbtfailure and ridicule upon almost everyetfortthe better class of Coreans have made to transact business for the government or themselves, in order to make it appear that the Coreans are but a nation of helpless ·chil- dren, who can nev-er learn business, and who, for that reason, need a Chinese guar- dian over them. He has threatened the King repeatedly, through certain Corean officials, with the Chinese army and navy and with the vengeance of the viceroy in order to comp el compliance with his wishes ·and demands, while, to weaken the royal 

authority in the eyes of officials and subjects alike, he has abused and trampled upon the long-established and sacred customs of the court by riding in his chair into the palace,almost up to the very entrance leading to the presence of the King, 

accompanied by his coolies.sen-an ts,and horsemen, who at times hn. ve conducted themselves in a disorderly manner; while in the excitement of July and A.ugust ofl836, which he·was the principal cause of, and which, judging from his action, was intended as an excuse for violent measures, arising out of his attempt to force the Government to admit that the King was the author of a letter His 1\bjesty neve r wrote,said to contain a request for the protection of a friendly power against the aggressions of Ubina, the language and conduct of China's representative would ha-ve done credit to the chief ofbraggadocios. In some of his conduct he has been more or less applauded and encouraged byoneortwoforeignofficials, while in all of his disreputable work he has been much assisted by a few petty Obi nese officials, as well as by certain of China's gunboats sent to the open ports in Corea for the purpose of "protecting Chinese consuls and merchants," as stipulated in their treaty, and, as alleged and published in the preamble to such treaty," as a favor granted by China to a dependent state," which have been detected in some of their attempts to smuggle red ginseng out of the country. These gunboats also, on thetr arrival from China, are in the habit of bringing more or less cargo, which their officers demand shall be landed without exam- ination, while the customs authorities urge the right of inspection, as in ordi· nary cases, to see whether or not it contains dutiable goods. Invariably the Chinese consul takes up the side of the gunboat people, and in their behalf ap- peali to Commissioner Yuan in Seoul, who in turn threatens and abuses the president of the foreign office until the order is given to pass the goods without examination. The last case of smuggling ginseng by one of these gunboats, so far as is known, occurred in October, when several thousand dollars' worth of the drug were seized, the largest chest of which was covered by the seal and signature of Commissioner Yuan: The chief commissioner of customs has done all in his power to break up these lawless and frauduJent practices. He has appealed to the president of the foreign office, to the viceroy at Tien-Tsin, and to the inspector-general of customs in China to aid him in enforcin~ the laws and regulations of the Corean customs service, but thus far without a vail. The president of the foreign office frankly says he is powerless a.s against the Chinese in these matters. Even with the fraudulent treatment it has received, the customs revenues for the year just closed amounted to the sum of $250,000, a sum which, under legitimate and fair treatment, would have been considerably 

increased, thereby avoiding the apparent necessity for some persons to wa.ste so much false sympathy over the expenditure of a few thousand dollars in send- ing ministers to Europe and America. But the culminating act of China's rep- resentative for cold-blooded villainy lies in his plot, exposed in July last, to detllrone and carry off the King to make temporary room for a pliant tool. The execution of this diabolical business involved riot, arson, bloodshed, and prouable assassinations, besides imperiling the lives of all the foreigners in Seoul, as well as those of many native people. Every detail of this wicked con~ 

spir:1.cy is in possession of the King, and which would, no doubt. have been car-· ried out but for the integrity and loyalty of Prince Min Yong lk, one of the ablest and truest of Corean subjects, who, with the knowledge of the King-, had been let into the plot, and who faithfully reported its different phases from time to time to His Majesty as well as myself, who were enabled thereby to control and defeat it. Perhaps the most extraordinary part of this infamous busines.s is the draught of it which was to have been, and doubtless was, submitted to the vicerof for his approval or rejection. The principal features of this draught were as follows: Native soldiers were to b e drilled at Kang Wha. under the pretext of garrisoning the point against the ''outside barbarians.'' These soldiers were to be reviewed by the Chinese repre~entative. in order that they might readily recognize their commander at the critical moment. They were to be placed conveniently near to the palace. Then the Tai "\Van Kiun, or the ex-regent's palace or house, was to be fired and the work of the incendiary laid at the door of the King, which was to be the signal for au uprising of the ex-regent's following, who hate the Queen and he1· party with intense bitt-erness. '.rhe rioters were to attack the palace, when Commissioner Yuan was to appear on the ground, as he did in 188-!,and in com- maud of the troops already referred to, under the pretense of quelling the riot- ers, was to take possession of the person of the King and carry him out of the palace and then declare the son of the King's elder brother heir-apparent and the ex-regent regent until the heir agreed upon attained his majority, thereby 

enal>ling the Chinese, under the direction of the regent, to thoroughly invest the government and country. Neither did China's representative neglect the financial part of the scheme, for be placed in the hands of a certain general3,000 

tae_ls (about $4,500,000), out of which the expenses of drilling and moving the t~oons were to be paid. Thi~ sum was, however, returned to the Chinese lega. t10n after the departure of Mm Yong Ik and the collapse of the conspiracy. The Chinese Government can not plead ignorance of the conduct of their of- ficials in Corea, for they have been fuJiy advised from time to time through dif- ferent channels. Twice I viSited Tien-Tsin under authority from the king, when the fullest discussions were had with the viceroy with respect to Yuan's extraordinary conduct and the policy of the Pekin Government tQwards Corea. In ruy first interview, in September, 1886, I urged an amicable understanding between China and Russia., as well as Japan, in regard to the political affairs ot the peninsuJa as the surest means of preventing irritation and disorder, and be- fore my return the viceroy assured me that such an understanding would not only be reached, but that China would change her representative, as Yuan was too young, not only in years but also in experience, for such a. p ost. In fact, said the viceroy, the position has already been tendered to the p resent Taotai 

of 'l'ien-Tsin and the Taotai who has just been appointed at Cheefoo, but that both had declined. Ou the occasion of my second visit, in October of last year, to discuss Corea's right to send public ministers abroad and to open ports in the interest of trade, as well as to expose Yuan's latest villainy, if it became nec- essary, in one interview; finding that the viceroy turned a. deaf ear to every- thing reflecting in any way upon Yuan, I was about to dispose of him once for all, as I supposed, by presenting the indisputable evidences of his recent con· spiracy when, to my amazement, the viceroy cooly informed me that he knew all about the dethronement scheme. That while Yuan was in it, yet it was all the fault of 1\Iin Yong Ik, who laid the plot and induced Yuan to go into it, and that for his stupidity in letting him- self be drawn into such a thing he had been severely reprimanded. The repri- mand was due probably not so much to Yuan's. stupidity for being drawn into it, as the viceroy said, as to the detection and failure of his own wicked con- spiracy. And still, in the face of this criminal record1 Yuan continues the rep· resentative of China to Corea, in violation of the closmg paragraph of the first article of the treaty between the two countries, which says: "Should any such officer disclose waywardncs.'l, masterfulness, or improper conduct of public busi- ness, the superintenMnt of trade for the northern port !lnd the King of Corea respectively will notify each other of the fact and at once recall him."- In view of all this the inquil·y naturally suggests itself, why is the commissioner stub- bornly kept in Seoul? Is it becau e China, desiring to take possession of Corea, and having no excuse in the eyes of civilized nations for doing so, expects him, 

through his violent conduct, to furnish one? It is to be hoped not. Nor is this all. 'Vhat must be the moral status of a government which insists on being represenLed at the court of a neighboring state by a smuggler, con- spirator, and diplomatic outlaw? I submit, the language is not too strong, in view of the facts and the following record applicable to them, copied from a well-known author on international law: "Several instances are to be found in history of ambassadors being seized a.nd sent out of tbe country. The Bi,shop of Ros!!, amb:l.Ssador of Mary Queen ot Scots, wa!l imprisoned and then banished from England for conspiring against the sovereign, while the Duke of Norfolk and other conspirators were tried and executed. In 1534 De Mendoza, the Span- ish ambassador in England, was ordered to quit the realm for conspiring to in- troduce troops to dethrone Queen Elizabeth. In 1654 De Bass, the l<'rench min- ister, was ordered to depart the country in twenty-four hours, on a ch11.rge of conspiring against the life of Cromwell. In 1717 Gyllenborg, the Swedish am- bassador, contrived a plot to dethrone George I. He was arrested, his cab- inet broken open and searched, and his papers seized. Sweden anested the British ministel· at Stockholm by way of reprisal. The arrest of Gyllenborg was necessary as a measure of self-defense, but on no principle of international law can the arrest of the British minister by Sweden be made justifiable. For similar reasons, Callamare, Sp:mish ambassador in France, was, in 1718, 

arrested, his papers se:.Zed, and himself conducted to the frontier by military escort. So r ecently as 1843, Sir H. Bulwer, the British ambassador ~ Spain, had his passports returned, and was requested to leave Spanish territory by the government. Certain disturbances had taken place in certain parts of Spain, and the government persuaded themselves that Sir H. Bulwer had lent hi.s assistance to the disaffection." And bad the Corean Government possessed the national strength to enforce their rights, another case of far more recent date would have been added to the above list in the person of Commissioner Yuan. The Chinese authorities seemed to be considerably exercised over the surrender of Kim Ok Kiun by the Japanese Government, in order that. he might be justly punished for his conspiracy, and who wouJd doubtless have been willingly given up by that government were not international precedents 

against the surrender of political offenders; and yet the conspiracies of the Chinese representative are of a far graver character than those of Kim Ok Kiun, for the former's were directed against the King, the head and front of all government in the kingdom, while the latter's were directed more against cer- tain high officials tha.n otherwise. If the Chinese authorities were sincere in their effor-ts to have Kim Ok Kiun properly punished for his crimes then, they surely will not condop.e the greater offense of their own representative against the King now. The oppressive con- duct of China is .not confined alone to her small officials in Corea, nor to those who periodically visit the country in gunboats, for it extends to Tien-tsin and Peking. 

After my return from the north where I went to inspect the natural resources of that part of Corea, I recommended among other things that as Ping Yang is the center of a large section of country, rich in agricultural and mineral wealth, 

legitimate trade would be encouraged and increased, the customs revenues largely augmented, the smugglirig carried on in and out of the Tatong River checked, while the preliminary work of opening the valuable coal and other mines located near there, already determined upon by the government, would be fltcilitated by establishing an open port at or near that city. The proposition was also warmly supported by the chief eommissipner of customs, and subse- quently that efficient officer was instructed by the King to take the preliminary 

steps. 

A. steamer was dispatched with a customs officer on board to survey the river and to locate the port at the nearest practical point to Ping Yang. While this work was going on the chief commissioner was informed by Yuan that the Vice- roy Li would not permit a port to be opened at that place. The chief commis- sioner, humiliated by this unjust and unwarrantable interference, was compelled to direct the vessel with the cu toms officer to return. At first the King declined to believe that such an order could emanate from the viceroy, but direct com- munics.tion with the Chung Tang through myself confirmed the statement of China's representative. In the discussion of this subject the viceroy based his objection upon the erroneous and illogic.'\] grounds that, as Ping Yang is near the port of New Chwa.ng in China, an open port there would seriously interfere with Chinese trade. In the first place, New Chwang is several hundred miles from Ping Vangand; secondly, there is not annually a thonsand dollars' worth of trade carried on between the two points. But if there were even Sl,OCO,OOO worth~r ten for that matter, are the rev- enues of the Corean Governmententitlea· to no consideration by China? or was it the object of the Peking Government in getting control of the customs service of Corea to so dh·ect and manipulate it as to make the natural resources and wealtl1 of the country subserve the interests of China instead of Corea? The 1·ight of every state to increase its wealth, population, and power by open- ing ports for the stimulation and encouragement of trade, the extension of its navigation, the improvement of its revenues, arts. a)!riculture, and commerce is 

incontrovertible and is recognized by every civilized nation under the sun. and the sooner China is compelled to recognize the fact also the better it will be' for the family of nations whose comity and friendship she essays to share, as well as for her own interests. Neither do the commands of the viceroystopatopening ports, for his excellency asserts, without a stammer or a blush, that Corea. can not negotiate loans with which to aid in the development of the natural re- sources of the country or transact in her own way, as -she has for centuries pa.st, the business of the Government without first asking and obtaining the consent 

of China. 

In view of such a long train of cruel, unjust, and tyrannical conductas is here presented China's professions of friendship for Corea under the claim of vassal· age become simply monstl·ous in their sinc~ity. Nor do the mischievous con· sequences of such meddlesomeness stop here. For if the viceroy in his com• mands to the Corean Government can practically defeat the commercial part o.t the treaties made with other countries, his excellency can by similar-commands nullify every stipulatioJl .of those agreements. whether they apply to t3e ap. 

< 
8140 ~ CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. AUGUST 31, 

pointment of public ministers, opening ports for the conYenience of trade, the 

collection of duties, or to the rights of citizens and subjects of the treaty powers, ·whether of person or property. How long the trea ty rights of other countries 

&ud the Jh·es of their nationals are to be jeopa.rdized and trifled with, or how far 

China will be permitted to go in the direction she now seems to be headed before a halt is called, depends entirely upon the faith and value other powers be- sides the United States attach to their stipulations with Corea. 1 say other powers besides the United States because that Go-.ernment-, with no political 

intel'ests i.n the peninsula to protect-, has through their distingltished Secretary of :::itate. having in mind the faith pledged in the first article of the American 

treaty, informed Chin~ that as the former has concluded a treaty of friendship 

and commerce with Corea on the basis of a sovereign and independent state they expect the rights and privileges so acquired to be respected. Were the national autonomy of China endangered or the rights and immunities of her subjects threatened ~th destruction by the continued independence 

of Corea, and China were for that reason to proceed openly to annex the country 

instead of assuming relations with it which do not exist and endeavoring uy false pretenses 1.o sustain the assumption, the cnse would be different. For the 

rfght of self-preservation is just as inherent in a nation as it is in individuals, 

while the most solemn and responsible obligation it owes to its people is the 

guaranty of all their rights under a stable and well-administered government. The King having appointed and dispatched public ministers to all countries in treaty relations with Corea-a course so fatal to the claims of vassalage-the time has surely come for China to quit masquerading with the Corean ques- tion and frankly announce in unmistakable terms her policy toward the Peninsula. For ltntil the question is settled one way or the other it will not only 

continue, as now, to be a very serious and disturbing element in the politics of 

the East, but it will delay, if not prevent, inteJ:nnl development and thereformation of the long-established abuses in Corea. · But with the question settled in favor of the <!ontinued independence of the 

country and entire responsibility for the duties and obligations already assumed 

through the government's international agreements, and with labor made honorable by royal decree, and idifmess condemned as it is in Western countries, 

where the fact is recognized that the only key to real greatness, permanent 

prosperity, and national strength lies in the recognition of the truth tbab to engage in all branches of labor and business enterprises is not only respectable 

but it is more, it is laudable and worthy of the hig-hest commendation and en- couragement. Then with the idle Yang Ban classes(so-called gentlemen) which are now feeding upon and exhausting the labor of the country, because it is 

considered dishonorable for them to do any work, compelled to earn the bread 

they eat, and the agricultural classes stimulated and encouraged by the protection of their urplus products from the squeezing and other illeg-al exactions now made upon it-sure to follow sooner or later under settled political conditions-Corea would then enter upon that era of prosperity which the natural w ealth of the country so justly merits. A few words in reply to the stale charge that the King is weak and vac- illating in character and I leave the subject of Corea's sovereignty and griev- ances to those who are able to protect and right them; and upon this point two years' experience as His Majesty's foreign adviser and vice-president of the 

home of)ice (privy council) should enable me to speak advisedly, (or during 

that time some of the most trying phases of the Corean problem have pre- sented themselves for solution, and through them all the King has shown a firm ness, cheerfulness. and patience worthy of a ruler of a great nation. Often 

his language and bearing have indicated great anxiety, but never weakness nor anger. It is trne that since Corea's contact with 'Vcstern people, dazzled by the glitter and novelty of the change and en.-:louraged by the smooth words 

of some adventurers and some unscrupulous persons, the Government have 

been led into undertaking impracticable ventures, whose failures h a ve created a reputation for extravagance and fickleness which will perhaps take years of 

prudence and economy to remove; but every Asiatic nation has had to pass through such an experience, and Corea must have hers also. 

After dispatching the ministers to Europe and .America against the imperial 

protests of China, the King ought not t-o be longer accused of either fear or a want of firmness of character. His Majesty received the protest with that quiet 

dignity which had charact~ri~ed his I?earing ~n o~her impo~tant mat.te~,and after 

h earing and carefully wetghtng Chma's objectlons-relymg on hts nght as ex- pressed in and :.: uarantied by the treati~, as well. as by the law.ofnations~the 

ministers were ordered to leave for thetr respect1ve posts, agamst the ultima- tum of the Peking Government, the positive conditions prescribed by the vice- roy, as well as in the face of the blustering conduct and diplomatic antics of 

Commissioner Yuan, supplemented by the persistent efforts of a few cowardly 

Corean officials, whose well-beaten track between the palace and the Chinese 

legation indicate the character of their patriotism as well as their d~voti~n to the King. No; from my own knowledge I should rather say that H1s 1\IaJesty 

is far too strong a charactet to suit those whose purposes it ser-.es not to have 

it so. 

It w ust be borne in mind also that His Majesty has no kingdom to gain through an aiTogant exhibition of strength of character, but he has one to lose through an exhibition of weakness or fear. Th~ King's character for universal lund- ness may have been mistaken for weakness. Even some of his subjects say His :Unjesty is too kind. for the good of ~e public se~vic~. ~is habits ar~ those 

of perfect sobriety and mdnstry, and, bemg progressive In hts nature, he IS con- stantly seeking information which will aid him in directing his subjects into 

those pat.bs that lead to the higher plains of civilization which have done so much to humanize and Christianize the western world. Unfortunately in this 

great work the King, with a few exceptions, stan.ds alo~e. Those who ar~ in 

sympathy with western proo-ress are as a rule wtthout mfl.uence or followmg, 

while those who possess both adhere to the traditions of the past with a loyalty 

wortiJy of better things. Under these circumstances the King of Corea surely 

deserves the sympathy and support of all good people. O.N.DENNY. 

SEOUL, CoREA, Feb,-uary 3, 1888. 

Since writing the foregoing another disturbance has taken place in Seoul (June 20) but on a different tack from those which have preceded. This time it was substn.ntially the old and absurd story of the Tien-Tsin butchery of innocent 

people over again that produced the riots, namely, that children were stolen 

and sold to foreigners, who used their eyes for medicine and then eat their 

bodies. These wicked rumors so excited the people that all that was necessary w as for some street loafer, perhaps employed for the occasion, to cry out ''there goes one of the child stealers," when the victim was at once set upon, stoned, 

and beaten to death, although his only offense may have been leading his own child by the band through the streets. The King took prompt and effective measures for the suppression of these rumors as well as the rioters, me~ures in which His Majesty received the ener- getic aid of the foreign representatives, backed by the cordial support of their 

naval authorities. 

The appearance in the capital of squads of marines, landed from the American, Russian, and French men-of-war then in Chemulpo harbor, produced a most salutarv effect in the direction of law and order. The circumstances leading up to the riots so pointed themselves that the diplomatic representatives in 

their conferences did not deem it necessary to have the Cbinese representative 

present, so he was wisely left out. Another significant circumstance is that, 

while charges were freely made against the Japanese of buying and selling children to Westerners for the purposes above named, yet no such accusations were ln.id at the door of the Chinese, notwithstanding the well-known fact that at least one Chinese merchant has for a long time been engaged in the traffic of 

buying and shipping out of the country for sale Corean children. These rumors worked so well that no doubt similar ones will again be put in circulation when 

th e conditions seem favorable for more mischief. There does not seem to be any doubt in the minds of intelUgent foreigners in Seoul, who have closely 

observed events for the past two years, as to whose dastardly hand is a t the ~ 

bottom of this business or upon whom the responsibility would fall in case of 

Yiolence, if the people in the country come to Seoul, as they have threatened to do, for the purpose of killing foreigners and tearing down their houses. 

Neither need the projector of the foul murders recently committed in thd streets of the capital t bink for a moment that intelligent Coreans are deceived, for they, 

too, understand p erfectly who is the moving spirit and the objects aimed at. O.N.D. 

Yr. MITCHELL. I now move a reference of the pending resolution to the Committee on Foreign Relations. 

The motion was agreed to. 

PRINTING OF A DOCUMENT. 

Mr. FRYE. I move that Senate Executive Document No. 176, Fiftieth Congress, first session, being the message from the President of 

the United Stat-es, transmitting a treaty between the U.nited States and 

Great Britain concerning the interpretation of the convention of October 20, 1818, signed at Washington, February 15, 1888, be reprinted. 

The print is entirely out. 

The motion was agreed to. 

ADJOURNMENT TO MONDAY. 

Mr. GRAY. I move that when the Senate adjourn to-day it be to 

meet on Monday next. 

The motion was agreed to. 

FORTIFICATIONS APPROPRIATION DILL. 

The Senate, as in Committee of the Whole, resumed the consideration 

of the bill (H. R. 10998j making appropriations for fortifications and 

other works of defense, for the armament thereof, for the procurement 

of heavy ordnance for trial and service, and for other purposes, the 

pending question being <>n the amendment proposed by the Committee 

on Appropriations as section 6. 

Mr. PLUMB. I now call for the completion of tile reading of section 6, which I think was stopped at the end of tbe paragraph commencing in line 57. 

The Secretary proceeded to read the amendment reported from the 

Committee on Appropriations as section 6, commencing with line 37, 

page 8, and continued to line 48, as follows: 

The board is authorized to make all needful and proper investigations, exper- iments, and tests, to ascertain with a. view to .their utilization by the Govern- ment, the most efrective g'uns, projectiles, fuses, torpedoes, armor-plates, and 

other implements and engines of war; and are hereby authorized to purchase or cause to be manufactured such guns, carriages, armor-plates, and othct• war materials and art.ic:es as may, in their judgment, be n ece sary in the proper discharge of the duty herein devolved upon them: Provided. That the amou11 t ex- pended and liabilities incurred in such investigations, experiments, ami tests ~:~hall not exceed $500,000. 

Mr. HAWLEY. Does the Senator from Kansas propose an amendment? 

1\fr. PLUMB. -I want to propose an amendment to the paragraph 

just read. I move to insert in line 40, after the word "fuses," the 

word "explosives," so as to authorize the board to ex peri men t with 

explosives. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The amendment will be stated. 

The SECRETARY. In line 40, section 6, of the amendment r t:ported 

by the Committee on Appropriations, after the word ''fuses,'' i t is proposed to insert " explosives; " so as to read: 

The board is authorized to make all 11eedful and proper investigations, ex- periments, and tests, to ascertain with a view t-o their utilization by the Gov- ernment, the most effective guns, projectiles, fuses, el..'""Plosives, torpedoes, armor- plates, and other implements and engines of war. • 

The amendment to the amendment was agreed to. 

1\Ir. PLUMB. I now move to strikeout in line41 the word "are," 

and insert in lieu thereof ''the Secretary of War is;'' so as to re:1d: 

And the Secretary of War is hereby authorized t-o pu1·chase or cause to be 

manufactured, etc. 

The amendment to the amendment was agreed to. Mr. PLUMB. I move to insert after the word "judgment," in line 

44, the words "of said board;" and in connection with the .,arne 

amenllment I move to strike out "their," and insert "the," in the 

same line. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The amendment to the amenl1 ment 

will be reported. 

The SECRETARY. In line 44, before the word "judgment , " it is 

proposed to strike out "their" and insert "the;" and after the word 

'' j ndgment '' in the same line to insert ''of said board;'' so as to read : 

In the judgment of said board, be necessary in the proper discharge of t.be 

duty herein devolved upon them. 

The amendment to tbe amendment was agreed to. 

Mr. PLUMB. I did not observe whether the Secretary read the last 

paragruph in the proposed section 6, commencing with line 4H. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. That bas not yet been read . The 

Secretary will1·ead the remainder of the amendment proposed !Jy the 

Committee on Appropriations as section 6. 
1888. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 8141 

The Secret.ary resumed the reading of the amendment from line 49 

to line 54, as follows: 

That under the provisions of this section of this act the board shall not ex- pend or enter into contract or contracts involving the Government in an aggre- gate expenditure exceeding 56,000,000, nor an expenditure on the part of the 

Government in any one fiscal year in excess of$2,000,000. 

1\ir. P~UMB. I suggest that tbe words "of· this act," in the first 

line, should be stricken out. They are unnecessary. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The amendment will be stated. 

The SECRETARY. In line 49, after the word "section," it is proposed to strike out the words " of this act;" so as to read: 

That under the provisions of this section the board shall not expend, etc. 

The amendment to the amendment was agreed to. 

1\Ir. PLUMB. I move to insert at the close of the paragraph: 

And all guns and materials purchased under authority of this act shall be of 

.American production and furnished by citizens of the United States. 

The amendment to the amendment was agreed to. 

Mr. HAWLEY. I wish to suggest to the Senator from Kansas an- other amendment in this paragraph from line 49 to line 54. Has that 

been read? 

Mr. PLUMB. It has been read and amended, and I was going to 

propo3e another amendment t.here so as to make it read: 

That under the provisions of this section thet·e shall not be expended. 

Mr. IIA WLEY. That is exactly what I intended to_ propose. It 

says: 

The board shall not expend or enter into contract or contracts involving the 

GoYernment, etc. 

I propose to say that ''the contracts authorized by the provisions of 

this section shall not involve the Government in an aggregate expenditure exceeding $6,000,000." Is that the idea of the Senator? 

Mr. PLU 1B. That is .the idea; only I intended to do it by a different form of language, to make the clause read: 

That under the provisions of this section there shall not be expended, ·or con- tract or contracts entered into involving the Government in an aggregate ex- penditnre exceeding ji-6,000,000. 

That covers the idea of the Senator from Connecticut. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The amendment will be stated. 

The SECRETARY. It is proposed to amend the clause so th~t it shall 

read as follows: 

That under the provisions of this section there shall not be expended, or con- tract or contracts entered into involving the Government in an aggregate ex- penditure exceeding $6,000,000, nor an expenditure on the part of the Govern- ment in any one fiscal year in excess of lr.l,OOO,OOO. 

Ur. REAGAN. To what section is that amendment? 

:M1·. PLUMB. In the clause from line 49 to 54 of section 6 on page 

8. That does not change the sense of the section. 

Mr. REAGAN. That is in addition. 

Mr. PLUMB. In addition to all the provisions contained prior to 

section 6. 

Mr. BECK. Kead it again. I could not understand it. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The amendment will again be stated 

from the desk. 

The SEcRETARY. It is proposed to amend the clause beginning in 

line 49 so as to read as follows: 

That under the provisions of t-his section there shall not be expended, or con- tract or contracts entered into involving the Government in an aggregate ex- penditure exceeding $6,000,000, nor an expenditure on the part of the Govern· ment in any one fiscal year in excess of &2,000,000; and all guns and materials 

purchased under the authority of this act shall be of American production and 

furnished by citizens of the United States. 

. The amendment to the amendment was agreed to. 

Mr. TELLER. I wish to amend section 6, in line 39, by inserting, 

afterthe word "effective," the words "small-arms and cartridges." - I 

understand there is no objection on the part of the committee to the 

alllenclment. 

1\Ir. PLUMB. I think on the whole that will change the effect of 

the remaining portion of the provision. If the Senator would insert, 

after the word "guns," in line 39, the words "including small-arms," 

I think it would be better. 

Ur. TELLER. "And cartridges." 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Does the Senator from Colorado modify 

his amendment? · 

Mr. PLUMB. The word ''cartridges'' is covered by the word '' pro- . . jectiles," in line 40. 

Mr. HAWLEY. HaTdly. 

Mr. PLUMB. Then I suggest that the word ''cartridges'' come in 

at a different place. Say "including small-arms," and then put the 

word ''cartridges '' in another place. . 

Mr. HAWLEY. If yon say simply "small-arms, cartridges, and projectiles," that will answer every purpose. 

Mr. TELLER. I will modify it in that way, by inserting the words 

after the word ''guns'' instead of after the word ''effective.'' · 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The amendment will be reported as modified. 

The SECRETARY. At the end of line 39 of section G, after the word 

''guns, '' it is proposed to insert '' incl nding small-arms and cartridges. '' 

Mr. PLUMB. Leave out the word "including," and say "smallarms, cartridges,'' etc. 

The SECRETARY. After the word~' guns," in line 39, insert '' s"mall4 

arms, cartridges;" so as to read: · 

The most effective guns, small-arms, cartridges, projectiles, fuses, explosives, torpedoes, etc. 

The amendment to the amendment was agreed to. 

The Secretary read the remainder of the section proposed to be in4 

serted as section 6, beginning in line 55, as follows: 

For payment of the necessary expenses of the board, including a. per diem 

allowance to each member thereof when employed on duty away from his per- manent station of $2.50 a. day, ~5,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question now is on agreeing to 

the amendment to insert, as a new section, section 6 as it has been_ 

amended. 

Mr. TELLER. I desire to offer a further amendment to the bill. 

- The PRESIDING OFFICER. Does the Senator desire to offer a further amendment to section 6 ? 

Mr. TELLER. I desire to offer a substitute for this section, and I 

presume it should be done now. . 

I do not mean to detain the Senate at this time with any lengthy remarks on this bill, because it is not a subject that I feel that I have 

any rignt to detain the Senate at great length upon; but I wish to 

criticise very briefly so.me provisions of section 6. 

I am entirely in sympathy with the purpose and object of the section, 

and that is to enable those who are· skilled in the making of guns to 

become contractors with the Government for the furnishing of guns. 

I believe that it is nnquestionabiy the fact that if we resort to outside 

people for these arms we shall get a more effecth-e and cheaper gun 

than the Government can furnish. I think, without any reflection on 

the War Department, or the Ordnance Bureau, or anybody, the effort 

to get guns has demonstrated the fact that we are not likely, within 

any reasonable time in which it is supposed we should have these guns, 

to get anything very valuable from that source. I do not know whether 

the complaint,made against the Ordnance Bureau. is correct or not, but 

I know the public have at least formed the opinion that nothing will 

pass that bureau unless H originates in the bureau, and ~hat the pnb4 

lie at large will offer nothing to the Go>ernment in the way of guns 

unless there is some board or some authority outside of the Ordnance 

Bureau with which they can deal. 

I do not feel myself that the comtitution of this board is what it 

ought to be. I think there should have been some members of the 

board taken from civil life, as I said yesterday. I am satisfied that a 

little of the common sense and the skill and the learning that could be 

selected from eminent engineers in this country, who have given no 

attention whatever up to this hour to guns, would be of vast benefit to 

the Goverrnrieut in connection with this matter. It is a question, as 

I said yesterday, largely of engineering, and it is quite possible, indeed 

quite probable, that JDGn who have not had anything to do with guns, 

who will now make that subject a study for a few months or a year or 

two, -will know more about it than some men who have got in a rut 

and insist upon keeping in that particular mtandgoing in that particular direction or else not going at all. 

If this is a practical measure, if it is proposed to get guns, this provision.is so indefinite, so uncertain, that I do not believe any person 

will attempt to build a gun unless it is those'guns that are provided for 

in section 6, the cast-iron guns. I have no doubt they can be furn• 

ished. Whether they are desirable or not I do not design now to con4 

sider or discuss. I presume those will be furnished, because there are concerns in the country that' are capable of doing it. 

But as to the breech-loading guns of steel, 10 and 12. inch guns, it 

does not seem to me possible that anyc<mcerncangotowork and make 

one of those guns and submit it to the te~t that the Army may exacf; 

and ought to exact' without knowing what he is to have for it when he 

gets it, without knowing the amount that will be paid for it. without · 

knowing what sort of a gun the Department will assent to be the best 

kind, without any data whatever as to what is to be the weight of the 

gun, what is to be the weight of the projectile, what is the force that 

is to be put upon the projectile, what is to be the velocity with which 

the projectile is to go from the gnu, what is to be the range, what is to 

be the endurance, and what the general character of the gun provided 

for in this sixth section. Is it left to the hoard? If it is, .does anybody know that it will he satisfactory to Cong,ress? Ought we not to 

provide in this system for securing proper guns? Ought we not to_say 

something about the character of guns and what should be their ef· 

fecti ve force? 

Mr. PLUMB. If the Senator will allow me at that point, I will say 

that I think if he will read the clause beginning in line 19 of section 6 

be will find that we ha>e provided for just that thing, because we say 

in effect that the board shaH pro \'ide a test; that is, that they shall establish the qualities and qualifications of the gun which, according to 

their judgment, inferentially but necessarily, represents the highest 

offensive and defensive r esults, and when they have prescribed those 

tests, then manufacturers who desire to make guns to meet those tests 

will have an opportunity to bring them forward and subject.them to 

the tests and inspection necessary, and if they come up to the tests they 

shall be entitled to a contract for the manufacture of a certain number. 

After the examination I have giv.eu to this subject during the last 
8142 CONGRESSIONAL REOORD-SENATE. AUGUST 31, 

two or three ye..'US and in connection with bills of this kind which ha'"e Department, United States Army, to the subcommittee on the fortifi. 

been proposed and which have not become laws, I have made up roy cation bill in the Hous~ of liepresentatives, a statement of all the 

d ~hat the Jaw ought not to .~r~scribe in debil the tests to be ap- prices that are p:tirl for these g uns in Europe. 1t was desired to purplied m. orde! to secure the acqmsltion of goocl gun_s. . cll::tse some tools, '\\hieh it was said y the ordnance officer " ·ould cost 

The s1t.uatron chang~s ~~om dny to day and from time~ time. Snp· in Europe about $;200,000, m1d he declared that for all purposes in this 

pose we say that a proJee1;1le should haTe a muzz1e\elocityof a cer:tam , country-the same number of tools would r~-1uire twice that amount 

number of feet to the second, or something of that kind, and the very I or $400,000. , . ' 

n~xt day or before t~e gun co~1ld. be made so~ebody eJse makes. a gnu There are no people in the world who haTe excelled us in the making 

mth a greater veloClty ?f proJectil~, or :ve J?-lght put that veloCity too of tools. We make tools of all kinds. A man can m:lkc too1s with a great. We hase prescnbed a board, which lS supposed to represent, as certainty of a market if he makes them for the Go>ernmeutunC!cT conI th!nk it does, everything that is, effecti>e in our present mili!~uy es- tract. It is not a question of trial; it is not a question of test; it is not 

tabhshment, and we say to them yon shall mal;;:e tests eo>enng cffi- a question of discretion in the l>oard. He makes them accord in {'I' to 

cieucy, range, J>Ower, accuracy, and everything of that kind, and when their description, according to their demand, and he has a certain ~ale 

yon have prescribed those tests if anybody will produce such a gun you for his tools. 

go <>t! n.nd contract with ~im." . . . . . Why sbonld it be aid that twice as much would be required to pay 

J,Tr. ~-EL.LER.. T.hat lS true .. T~ere IS a very limited pron.s10n of for the tools here as it would: take to buy them in Europe? Yet when 

that kmd. ~n ~1s b1l1, and th_at 1s m the first Pa:t of section 13. The it comes to guns this Army officer says the guns can be obtained here 

~t pro"VlSIO~ IS that there 1~ to be a comparative test ?etween the fo1· practically the same amount of money that they can be obtained 

:uon g"!lns w~JCh are to be furnished and the Sandy H_?ok ~on mcrrtar. for in Germany. If these estimates are true it would be much cheaper The~ 1t pro-v1des further, when you come to the 10 ana. 12 mch breech- to buy the guns in the United States than to buy them in Germany, 

loadmg steel guns, tl&-- becau~e the cost of tran p.ortation would be great. 

Such gun shall, in the J>resence of the party presenting it, be subjected to I find that this officer says that for a 14-inch gnu the IJrice in this such tests as the board shP..U ha>e prescribed; and should such ~run be shown country ought to .be $93,632; thatfora16-inchgunitoughtto be $144,- to t c :;:ntisfaetion of the board by such tests to fulfill the requirements pre· 000 d fi ')0 h $')"n 000 I fi d th h vion ly prescribed in re pect to accuracy, range, power, endurance, and ~en- ' • an or a:... -me gun :... iJ' • n on e ot er page, speak- erul t:<Glciency, the gu:~. and ammunition shall be paid for at a fair val nation, ing of a, 16-inch gnn in Krupp's manufactory, he says: in-el1Jcling cost of transportation, and contract shall be made, at a price reason- The reported cost often Krupp 120-ton gnus (16-inch) is gil'en as 894 OOOfrancs n.bk in the opinionoftueboard, with the party presenting the best of such guns, or $174,4.4.0 per gun. _ ' . ' for a Jurlher ·upply o.f similar guns, to be subjected to the usual service tE-st before ac·reptauce, the experimental gnn and all guns purchased hereunder to be · Yet the sac:1e officer puts the cost of our 1G-inch guns delivered at sub jed to itL"'l>ection at each stage of manufacture, a follows, namely: For not $144,000, and it is to be-presumed that the cost of the 12-inch guns and le thau fifty 10-inch steel guns; and for not less th:Lil fifty 12-inch steel guns. the 10-inch guns mn be proportionately lower than the 10-inch and 

'.ri1at ic; all well enough if only one person 1)resents himself to this 12-incll guns made in Europe. I have here a memorandum showin!J' 

bo:m! '\ith a gun; but suppose a dozen men present themselves with that the 12-inch Krupp gun cost fifty-three thousand six hundred and 

gmt;-;; suppose a .p.ozen men try to make guns. I will admit that I do some odd dollars. 'rhjs A.rmy officer sa.ys that a reasonable price for 

not \ink there will• be any danger of a great number of people apply- one of those ~ns hero would be $55,000. There is not anybody who 

in:,!. fo r it does not seem to me upon an examination of the provisions does not know that that is impossible; that if those guns are properly 

oft llc bill and the circumstances which surround the dealing with the I constructed in this country they must cost more money than they cost 

Go' ,•rnmeut in these matters that anybody will present himself. But in Germany by very much more than he suggests. 

wb~t t we ought to do is to so provide by law as that there shaH ben. gen- :Mr. GOI~UAN. I should like to ask the .....,enator to repeat the figures 

era1 oJrering of guns that tho Government may have the advantage of he gave as to a 12-inch gun. 

all the best talent in the country in the making of guns. l\lr. TELLER. Fifty-three thousand six hundred and some dollars 

Jn the 1h t place, the board will prescribe the test, but, as I under- is gi>eu as the cost of a 12-inch Krupp gun. I have a memorandum 

' staud, they \\ill not prescribe the price to be paid. 'rhat is a subject- here showing that the Kmpp 12-inch rifle, which is a gun of higher 

matter they aTe not required to provide in advance. Who is going to pon-er than is contemplated in the bill, cost about S53,000. I find in the 

make a gun and bTing it to the Government to test it in the hope that report of the Army board of 1886 that the cost is put at almost $54,000. 

be will get a contract when l1e does not know whether he will get a It is cousidered that 855,000 apiece, ther fi.n·.·, is a liberal price for the 

contract at all, and if be should obtain a contract he does not know proposed 12-inch guns. · 

what price will be fixeu on the gun, and when fixed it may be such a I was looking this morning"over the difference in pric~,as published 

snm. that be would not be willing to make it at that price? in the labor report, betn-een the German iron works and our own, and 

An experimental gun, a gun that has to be test-ed, can not be made I find that we pay more than twice as much for labor in all our steel 

antl tested, ! ·suppose, fo1· any sum less than from $100,000 to $125,000. and iron manufactories as is paid in Germany. I have no doubt that 

Nobody could afford to make but one gun for $125,000. As was stated Mr. Krupp employs the very best of workmen, and be probably pay::; 

here, I think by the Senator fro'm Connecticut [Mr. HAWLEY] and something higher than is paid for ordinary work. Perhaps the differothers, it will require a very large expenditure of money 'to make a ence would not be as great as th:\t, but everybody must know that if 

gun. In the first instance, there is a large plant to be provided,·costing a gun cost practically $54,000 in Germany, it can not be built in this 

from a million to a million and a half or two million dollars to begin country for $55,000. 

with. What concern will put up the plant and go to all that expense to It is not a matter of particular couc~rn now how much these guus 

produce one gun as a test in the hope that it may then get from the Gov- will cost, and I do not mention this for the reason that there is anyernmen.t a contract for one hundred mere? If one company should thing in the bill about the cost of them, but to show that when any 

consent to do it another may, and then the two companies would both outside parties come to deal with the War Department they will be 

be coming h ere and but one of them could get the contract. met with a statement that these guns can be made for this sum of 

Then whoever gets the contract must depend entirely upon this board. money, and there will not be anybody who is capable of gathering toAs I said before, there is no provision in the bill as to what shall be the gether enough steel to build a gun in this country, who has the brains 

size of the projectiles, the weight of the gun, the length of the gun, or or capital to do it, who will not know that it can not be done; ancl EO 

anything of that general character. All that is absolutely essential. practically the War Department or the Ordnance Bureau, which -is in 

I lmow the Senator from Kansas says that the board will have the control now practically of this board, will prevent anybody from conwhole matter under consideration and tbat they will be required to tracting with the Government for these guns, because they will insist 

pay a fair compensation for the gun. Who will determine what is ::t beforehand that the prices shall be such that nobody will dare to bid; 

fajr compensation? Of course the board will cletermine what will he ancl if they did not, if they said nothing more than that, here is the 

a fair compensation. statement that has gone out to the world, and that will be considered 

The first one hundred guns that are made by any foundry ought to a fair price for a 12-inch gun. 

cost more than the second hundred guns. Isllonldsayroughly, with- Jl.1r. PLUMB. Will the Senator permit me to interrupt him for a 

, out a careful examination, that the one hundred and fifty guns which moment? 

follow the first hundred guns ought not to cast any more than the Mr. TELLER. Certainly. 

Government will be obliged to pay for the first one hundred guns, or Mr. PLU:UB. My understanding is that a 12-inch gun "\'l"eigbs 50 

somewhere in that neighborhood. When they have their plant and tons, that is 50 long tons, 2,240 pounds to the ton. 

have ma'.le one hundred guns then they will be prepared to make an- Mr. GORMAN. Fifty-one tons. 

other hundred or a, hundred and fifty very much cheaper than they l\Ir. PLUMB. Well, in round nn.mbers. That would make nbo\lt 

made the first hundred. 112,000 po'unds, and at 33 cents n. pound would amount to over$33,000. 

Yesterday the Senat.or from l\iaine [1\fr. HALE] made some allusion We were advised by the Ordnance Bureau that there shoulu be adued 

to the cost of these guns. The cost of the guns is simply enormous; it for finishing and assembling (saying nothing now, of course, about the 

is fi:ightful to contemplate when yon think about it. Some of these use of the plnnt) about 20 per cent., which would make a. 12-inch gun 

guns cost half a million dollars-not the guns provided for in this bill, cost somewhere between $45,000 and $50,000. 

I think, but some of the guns proposed by the different nations of the Mr. GORMAN. If the Senator from Kansas will permit me, I l1ap -

earth, llnd some that are in process of construction, the 20-inch guns pen to have a memorandum of the cost of steel guns in my baud, which 

for instance. · I will read. 

I find in a communication from Charles S. Smith, captain, Ordnance 1\Ir. PLUMB. Well. 
1888. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 8143 

:Mr. GOll!t'I.A.N. The memorandum was furnished by the ordnance 

officers. I do not believe it to be accurate by any means; but their 

estimate is that nn 8-inch gun will cost finished at the Government 

fact ory $16,000. The probable cost of the same gun :finis'hed at a pri- vate shop they put at $18,512. A 10-inch gnu :finished at the Government factory costs $33,000, and it would cost ~36,826 at a private 

factory. A 12-inch gun costs $54,000 at the Government factory, and 

it would cost $60,222 at a private factory. As a matter of course, in 

making that estimate of the cost at the Government factory, there is 

nothing added for the interest on the cost of the plant or for the wear 

and tear of the machinery. The table as furnished is as follows: 

Cost of steel guns. 

I Wei•bt Weight Probable Probable Estimated cost per gun 

Caliber. of fin- offorg- cost per Cost per cost per gun finished at ished ingsper ton. gun. finished at private 

I gun. gun. gun factory. shops. 

Tons. Tons. 

8-inch .......... 14.5 17.4 $656.32 Sll,420 I $l6,000 $l8,512 

10-inch .......... 29.5 36.0 716.80 25,805 33,000 3~,826 

12 inch ......... 51.0 60.0 739.20 44,352 1 54,000 60,222 . Mr. PLUMB. I wish to say further in regard to the price that the 

Navy Department have been buying steel from the Bethlehem Iron 

Works, I understand, for about 33 cents~ pound for the 6 and 8 inch 

guns they have been manufacturing, and perhaps for the larger caliber. 

The Secretary of the Navy told me some twelve months ago, u.nless I 

am very much mistaken, t11at he anticipated within a bTief time we 

should be able to buy our steel as cheaply as the French Government 

was buying the same article for, and that was about 22~ cents or 23 

cents a pound. 

Mr. TELLER. How much would that be for a gun? 

Mr. PLUMB. I do not know; I have not made the calculation. Of 

course the Senator must know that as our manufacturers become familiar with this kind of manufacture and get the machinery necessary 

for the purpose the price will naturally go down. There will be very 

soon competition growing up, because we are not only going to manufacture our guns, but I have very good reason to believe that t}J.ere are 

men in this country expecting to engage in the manufacture of guns 

for foreign governments, for the South American governments especially, and I will venture to say that the moment we offer inducement 

enough to get our manufadurers enlisted in this kind of manufacture 

they will seize upon it and fill the :field as completely and as economically as they have ever filled the :field for the manufacture of steel rails. 

If the Senator helieYes we are not likely to be liberal here to these 

people, that is another thing, but he will see that we have excluded 

the idea in the amendment of comparison with anybody, and that we 

simply authorize the board to buy at a fair valuation. Of course I do 

not know what they may consider to be a fair valuation, but we thought 

for the purposes of this experiment we would let them consider every 

element that entered into the actual cost of a gtm that was produced, 

whether it was just as much cost as might be expected to follow the 

subsequent production of a thousand, but to get somebody to start in 

upon this manufacture, if he would, upon the prospect of simpJy a rea- sonable profit, to be determined by the board. 

Mr. TELLER. I agree with the Senator from Kansas that when 

gun-making becomes a business in this country we shall probably be 

able to make guns reasonably cheap; but we do not make any guns 

yet. Our manufacturers have never had any market for guns; they 

have never had any inducements to make guns. I want somebody to 

have an inducement to build a gun. I want our people to have their 

attention c.alled to it; and when they begin to look about to see whether 

they will put their money together and create a plant, I want them to 

have something before them by which they may know what kind of a 

gun they have got to build, what its test is to be, and all about it; and 

that ought to be the very highest type of any gun in the world. We 

ought not to accept to-day any 12-inch gun that does not perform as 

good service as any other gun in the world. 

If we can not make as good a gun in this country as Krupp can make. 

then we ought to go over there and buy from Germany a gun. But 

we can make 3.'!1 good a gun; there is not any question about it. It is 

only a question whether there is sufficient i.J,lducement offered to the 

manufacturers of this country to build guns. 

I have no expect-ation that the War Department will ever build any 

sufficient quantity of guns m: that they could do so. The statement 

that these guns can be made for any such money as has been stated is 

a mere suggestion, for they have never made any of them for that 

amount. 1 I do not suppose they have ever made a gun that did not 

cost twice as much as the sum they talk about here. They will not 

make any guns that will not cost 100 per cent. more than guns made 

in private establishments, and they will not make them as good, if the 

private parties are given an opportunity, so that they will be paid for 

their skill, for their intelligence, and for the discoveries that they will 

make in gun-making. 

That is what we want to do, and that is why there should be a provision of details in this bill. I do not say that this bill should provide 

for that absolutely, although an amendment I propose to offer does 

provide for it. I do not say that we should provide the price, or I do 

not say, as suggested by the Senator, that there should be an absolute 

test, for instance, ail to the velocity of the projectile from the mouth of 

the gun, which determines the whole question of the value of a gun. 

I would say that you must not have a velocity less than a certain 

amount, say 2,000 feet per second. If we can get tha.t kind of a gun 

that will stand the test of a sufficient number of shots, we should agree 

to pay for it ~o much money, but if in addition to that we can get the 

manufacturers to bring us a gun that will give a velocity for the same 

projectile of 2,500 feet per-second, we shall have agnn that is infinitely 

more \aluablc than the other gun, and for such a gun we ought to pay 

exactly, as I beard the Senator from Kansas advocating on this floorthat for every knot the speed of a ship is increased we ought to pay, 

because the ship becomes more valuable although the speed may be 

incrE>.ased but a small percentage. If our manufacturers add a quarter 

to the fore of_t_he gun they will have a<lded more than a quarter to its 

value, they will have doubl~d it·, the Senator says, and sometimes the 

difference in •alue would be incalculable. One might be an effective 

and a valuable gun, and the other might be absolutely worthless. 

What we want to do is to get the best possible gun, and that can be 

done by some wise system of in'{iting capitalists who have money to 

put in guns to come in here and compete with each other. What is 

more, every manufacturer should be induced to compete with himself; 

that is, when he has made a good gun he should be ever striving to 

make a better gun. When you have done that you will have all of 

the ingenuity and all of the talent and all of the capital in this country, 

backed by the enterprise to furnish the Government with guns. 

But I alluded to the price of these guns more particul:;uly to show 

that there is every reason to believe the War Department, as long as 

they are allowed to make these guns, if they do not get bids from the 

public, will not invite the public, and their tests will not b.e of such a 

character as to invite the public. They may make a very different gun. 

They may say t o the public, "We want a velocity with an 800-ponnd 

projectile of 2,500 feet to the second," and that may be beyond the 

capadty of anybody in this country, for it bas never yet been attained 

in any portion of the world. They may say that to the manufacturers 

of the country. Then they may turn around and build a gun that does 

not have a velocity of more than 1,500 or 1,800or 2,000 feet per second, 

and there will be nobody to complain of that. 

For that reason this ought to have been done in detail. The committee ought to have sat down and taken time. They had the ability 

to do it if they had taken the time, but they r.eturned us this bill in 

very great baste, and, I think, without giving it that attention which 

they ought to have given to it. Every day guns are being improved 

on in this country. We have a rifle called the Springfield rifle. I be: 

lieve the Government has suspended making any more of those. 

Mr. GORMAN. They are still ma<le. 

Mr. TELLER I understand that the Government has suspended 

the making of them. 

Mr. PLUMB. Every Army supply bill for the last ten y~rs to my 

personal knowledge has contained an appropriation of $400,000, I 

think, perhaps on occasions $500,000, for the purpose of continuing 

the manufacture of Springfield rifles .. :Mr. TELLER. I understood that this order was a recent thing, 

just a few weeks ago. 

Mr. PLUMB. In addition to that, the capacity of the establishment at Springfield, where these rifles are made, has been greatly enlarged lately, practically in order to supply the militia under the in· 

creased appropriation of $600,000 a year, which is now one of the permanent annual appropriations of the Government to supply the militia 

of the various States with weapons of war and camp and garrison equipage. 

Mr. TELLER. If we are to make an arm, a small arm or a great 

arm, we ought to make the best. Inferior guns are of no account any 

more than inferior powder would be. We want the best. If you are 

going to war, you want the most effective weapon. If you are going 

to fight on land or on sea, you want the benefit of all the discoveries 

and all the enterprise of the world, and we certainly know to-day that a better gun can be made than the Springfield rifle. The Senator 

knows that. 

:Mr. GORMAN. They have a better gun in the Navy, I understand, 

with a smaller caliber. The whole tendency of the world is to make 

guns of very much smaller caliber than formerly. They have such a 

gun in the Navy, but not in the Army. They adhere to the Springfield rifle in the Army. 

Mr. TELLER. I understand that recently a trial was made down 

here at the navy-yard in the presence of Senators, at which it was demonstrated that a small rifle capable of being carried had three times 

the penetration of a Springfield gun. I have a statement here which I 

believe could be supported by the Senator from Connecticut [Mr. HAw- LEY], who, I understand, was present when it was made. I undel'Stand 

that the Springfield rifle tried at the time penetrated 13 inches of pine, 

and the Hurst rifle 40 inches and had sufficient force to bend and upset 

-
CONGRESSIONAL REOORD=-SENATE. AUGUST 31, 

the prQjectile against the iron beyond, and 'that it would undoubtedly 

haYe gone through several more inches if there had been plank there 

in tead of iron. The Springfield projectile weighed 405 grains; the 

Hu rst projectile weighed ~58 grains. The Springfield rifle bas a danger sp:tce of less tbn.n 400 yards; the Hurst rifle bas a danger space of over SOU yards. The Springfield rifle has an extreme range of about a mile 

and a half; the Hurst rifle has an extreme range of 3 miles with a much 

lighter projectile. Mr. President, can anybody make a comparison between those guns that could be favorable to the Springfield rifle? Why, 

yon could not afford to take the Springfield rifle as a gift, and what is 

true of a rifle is true of a cannon. Mr. PLUMB. But let me say that is not the only test to be applied 

to au arm. It must baYe ease and simplicity of operation; it must be durable; it must be good all around as well as good in the mere mntter 

of i t8 power of propulsion. I do not know that ibis parHcnlar weapon 

bas not all the qualities which a weapon ought to have; bnt it seems to rue that it has not yet been thoroughly investigated. Meanwhile 

there has been very particular testimony frot;n competent people show- ing that the Springfield rifle, taking it alt.ogether, in view of all these 

qualities, is one of the very best weapons ~ the world, provided always 

that the present weight of projectile must be kept up. Meanwhile the 

European governments have been experimenting with a smaller projectile, and I think now it is very generally agreed upon by military 

authorities that there ought to be a gun for the armmg of our Army 

which has a projectile having a less weight than the Springfield rifle 

carries. I have no doubt that we shall enter upon the manufacture of 

something of t.hat kind after a time. Meanwhile we are doing what 

may or may not be the very best thing, and _y,et at the same time the 

military authorities recommend it. 

1\Ir. TELLER. I only mentionerl. it as an illustration. I did not me:m to say that the Hurst rifle ought to supersede the Springfield 

rifle; but these are important matters. It is no heavier than the 

Springfield rifle, I understand, but its recoil is much less than is allowed in the British army. Of course that is to be considered. Its 

recoil might be so great as to render it impossible for a man to hold it; 

it might :fly out of his arm. Mr. l'LUMB. There is one other thing to be taken into account. 

The Hurst rifle, from what I have heard of it, is undoubtedly a very 

good weapon, at least in this one particular, but it has been generally 

believed for some time that we were to have a better explosive than 

powder. I understand that the British Go•ernment bas adopted or is 

about to adopt- at all events it has passed through certain stages nec- essary to the adoption-an explosive which is a great deal better than 

anything heretofore known for small-anps; that it is impervious to 

water; that water does not affect it injuriously; that one-half the 

weight of this explosive will perform more than the service of double 

the weight of powder, and so on. Of course all these things may q nalify 

the arm to be used. Mr. TELLER. It is all true, of course, as the Senator from Kansas 

says, that discoveries are being made all the time, and that is why I 

suggested that if we made the proper inducement for manufacturers we should have their efforts in making discoveries, because we would pay 

them. If a man knows that he can get $50,000 from the Government 

for a rifle of a certain character, and that be can get $10,000 more from 

the Government for his skill, he is going to try to make the superior 

gun. That is why I want a system that shall tell the people what kind 

of a gun they can make, and which shall provide that when they have 

made what is admitted to be the best gun, we shall buy that gun; and 

if a man comes then with a better gun that it shall supersede his own 

gun if it is better than the former. · I have here an amendment which is somewhat lengthy, which I desire to offer so that if it shall not meet the approval of the Senate it 

may at least go with the bill into conference, so that the Senate con- ferees may have the benefit ofwhatithinkaresomeveryvaluableprovisions. The amendment bas been prepared by some gentlemen wUh 

great care and attention, and while there are some things in it that I 

do not know ought to go into the bill, some things I admit I am not 

familiar enough with the subject to :really know whether they ought 

to go into it-, on the whole it seemsto me to be a complete and perfect 

provision, and I believe if the Senate would adopt it instead of the sixth 

section the bill would then be in a very much better condition in handling this subject, and I believe there would then be some hope that we 

might get a bill through Congress. 

Let me call the attention of the Senate to some of the provisions of 

the amendment, not in detail, but just for a moment. It provides tbat 

the standard weight for projectiles for testing these guns shall not be 

less than 500 and 800 pounds respectively; that the standard weight of 

the rifle shall be so mnch, and then it pro'Vides a great many other 

things. Every gun ought to be tested according to its projectile. That 

.is to say, if one gun carries a projectile of 800 pounds and another car- ries one of 1,200 pounds, there might be a very great difference, the 

gun that fired the 800-pound projectile might be the most valuable after 

all. AH these details ou~ht to be worked up. Of course, the board 

may do it, it is possible they will do it, and that they will provide for 

that, although the bill itself should not have compelled them to provide for it. If the Senate does not think it is wise to say what shall 

be the.length of the gnu, what shall be the weight of the gun, what 

shall be the projectile, wh3t shall be its speed, what shall be the 

strength of the gun, at least we ought to provide in this bill that the 

board shall adopt some rules of this kind which shall be permanent 

and fixed, and not liable to be changed at any time after people enter 

into the manufacture of these guns. I submit the amendment. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Is .the amendment offered as an a.ddi tion to the section ? 

1\~i'. TELLER. It is a substitute for all after the first paragraph of sectiOn 6. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The amendment will be read . The CmEF CLERK. It is proposed to amend section 6 by striking 

out a.ll after the word "manufacture," in line 18, and inserting: 

SEc. 7. That the standard weight for projectiles for testing 10-inch and 12-inch 

rifle guns shall not be less than 500 and 800 pounds, respectively. SEC. 8. That the sta ndard weight of rifle guns to be tested for endurance, and 

of service guns to be contracted for as hereinafter provided, shall not be more tha n 23 and 48 tons each, respectively , for 10-inch and 12-inch rifles; and t.he 

length of these said guns, exclusive of the breech apparatus, shall not exceed 35 calibers. 

SEc. 9. That the saiu board shall authorize a contract, after due advertisement, 

for two 12-inch rifle guns w ith such party or parties as shall to them seem best. '.rbese guns shall be built up according to the pl.a.ns now prepared by the War nnd Na vy Depa rtments for 8, 10, and 12 inch rifles, the principal parts being of 

forged tempered steel. The drawings and specifications for one of these guns shall be furnished by the " ' ar Department and for the otb~r by the Navy De- partment within two months from the passage of this act, or as soon thereafter us may be, and the const1·uction of these guns shall be superintended by officers 

of the War and Navy Departments, respectively, who shall report progress from 

time to time, and upon the completion thereof, to the said board. The weights 

and lengths of these guns shall not exeeed that provided for 12-inch ri.tles in sect.ion 8 of this act, and the cost of these two guns, finished and delivered at the place of manufacture, shall not exceed ·$200,000. 

That the 5laid board shall also procure, by purchase or contract, carriages for use in testing these guns, either or both, unless the respective Departments 

which furnish specifications therefor shall have carriages suitable for such tests. These two guns shall each be tested under the directions of said board for accu- racy, range, and endurance in competition with and for comparison with those to be furnished by private parties as hereinafter provided in section 10. The p owder and projectiles for testing each of these guns shall be furnished by the Departments which furnish the specifications respectively therefor, and shall be 

paid for by order of the board The projectiles for these guns shall have the 

weight of 800 pounds each, and shall be fired with a charge of powder sufficient to give a muzzle velocity the reto of 2,000 feet per second. 

These weights and velocities may either vary by the amount ofl per cent. of 

that specified, but the average shall not be less than 800 pounds and 2,roo feet, 

respectively. 

These guns may either or both be repaired to an extent not exceeding 10 per cent. of their respective costs, provided such repait·s are necessary to secure the 

endurance of two hundred rounds or more from each. In estimating the cost of repairs the transportation of the guns shall not be included. 

That the board may carry out the provisions of this section at a total cost not exceeding $360,000. SEc.lO. Tb~t whosoever shall, within the limitation provided in sections 15, 

i6, and 17 of this act, produce one or more 10-inch or 12-inch single-charge 

breech-loading rifle guns of weights and lengths conforming to section 8, whlch guns are to be made wholly or principally of steel, and each supplied with a carriage, projectiles, powder, implements, ordnance supplies, and including all 

incidental expenses of a test of two hundred rounds for each test gun so pro- vided, shall, for each test gun so made and so provided which withstands the test of two hundred rounds of projectiles fired with a muzzle velocity of not less 

than 2,000 feet per second on an average, and an average weight of projectiles 

of not less than that prescribed for the standard weight of projectiles for such guns in section 10 of this act, without more repairs than can be put upon such g uns ordinarily for 10 per cent. of their cost, exclusive of transportation, be paid 

for the same by the direction of the said board, at a price for such guns, and 

supplies and tests, not including the carriage, not exceeding double the price 

h ereinafter fixed in this section as the price for service guns of that caliber, 

which money shall be due and paid as soon as any such gun has withstood the prescribed test of two hundred rounds and it is found it is to be paid for as determined by section 15, which shall be in full payment for such gun and test, 

including the powder, projectiles, repairs of ~un-carriage and gun and all 

other expenses of the test not hereinafter specified, except the cost of the CSU'-

riage therefor, which if found suitable for use therewith shall be paid for at the 

price hereillafter fixed for carriages for service guns of such caliber by order of 

the board or its authorized agent. Payment for any such carriage to be made as soon as the test has .shown it 

suitab'l.e for use with such gun or guns as it was made for, and without reference to whether the gun for which it was made endures its test or not. That no such carriage shall be paid for at any price unless it is found suitable 

for use with the gun for which it was provided. That no such test gun, or supplies therefor, provided or furnished for test under the provisions of this section, shall be paid for at any price, unless it shall 

endure the specified test of firing two hundred rounds with an average weight and velocity of projectiles equal to that specified and without more than the 

specified amount of repairs. That all test guns so provided or furnished shall be delivered at the place of 

manufacture. 

That the Gov.ernment, under direction of the board, shall furnish, free of 

charge, the use of a proving ground or grounds suitable for testing any or all 

of these guns for ra.nge, accuracy, and penetration, and furoi h, free of charge, 

the necessary targets for accuracy and penetration, the butts to be used in firing 

for durability, and bear all expenses of handling and transporting the guns. That for these purpores, and for fuing any such guns after they have been fired the first two hundred rounds, the board is authorized to expend the sum of $100,000, to be avail.a.ble on and after July 1,1890, until expended. That the plans of the gun·s of either kind, the breech-loading mechanism, the svstem of rifling, the projectiles adapted thereto, and the kind of powder or powder and cases therefor, and all cartridges used in these tests, may be of the 

kinds heretofore approved by the War and Navy Departments, or may_be after 

original designs or plans and proportions satisfactory to the projector and pro- ducer; and any gun furnished by any party, and all the supplies therefor, shall 

b e furnished without !l.ny cost to the Government until such gun has endured 

the n.bove prescribed test of firing two hundred rounds of projectiles with the w eights and velocities prescribed. Thi~ fuing of any such gun shall all be under the joint direction of the parties furnishing the gun and the said board, but the party or parties furnishing any such gun may at any and all times increase the weights of projectiles or charge ot powder above the standard prescribed to the extent he or they think best. That should any gun or more tllan one gun of any of the calibers specified ii 
1888. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- · SENATE. 8145 

. this section he furnished which withstands the firing of the said two hundred rounds with t h e weights and velocities of projectiles specified, then the firing shall continue to d etermine t he endurance of, and which of such guns has the best endurance , sucil continuance of the firing to be at the expense of the Gov- ernment, and if either of the said competing guns has, in firing its first two hun- dred rounds, done less work than the gun or guns it is competing with, by rea- son of its projectiles h a ving been lighter, or the velocities thereofless than that of the projectiles of the s a id competing gun or e;uns, then such gun or guns shall first be fired to the extent necessary to make up double the amount of such deficiency of work performed, before it shall be considered in further com- petition with the test gun or guns of that caliber which have done the superior amount of wor k, and in making up this deficiency the gun or guns to be fired therefor shall be fired with such charges of powder and shot, to be proportioned 

by the producer of the gun, as shall giye an amount of work to the projectiles for each d ischarge equal to the average work: of the best or largest amount of work: done in twenty fires by the competing gun which it is being equalized 

with, and this amount of work for each discharge thereafter for endurance shall be required of each competing gun of that caliber, unless the parties furnishing the competing guns of that caliber and the board shall all agree to have the amount thereof reduced. Should the owner or producer of auy such deficient gun object to being obliged to make up this deficiency of work: done by his or their gun during the fh·st two hundred rounds of firing it, then such gun shall be considered as out of the competitive test, and the firing may go on with the other gun or guns as long as the produ('er of such gun or guns may desire. That at any time after any of the test guns which may be provided under the provisions of this act bas been fired two hundred rounds,·and the above speci- fied amount of firing nece~ry to make up the excess of work performed in the first two hundred rounds of firing by some competing gun of like caliber, such test gun sha ll appear clearly to be inferior in endura nce to some of its competi- tors, the board may decline to fire it further, but this shall not prevent the pro- duce r of such gun from a further test thereof in the presence of the board at the expense of the producer, and such gun shall still be considered in competition with the other gun or g-uns oflike caliber being fired for endurance by the board; and if it shall excel them in endurance such expense for additional firing shall be borne by the Government and paid by the order of said board. That after any such test gun of 10-incb or 12-inch caliber has been fired the first two hundred rounds, and suqp additional amount as is aboye specified in this section to give it a credit for endurance equa l to any of its competitors, tor work done in its first two hundred rounds of fu·ing, then all continuation of the firing for endurance for each successive fift,y rounds shall be with charges which shall increase the average work stored in each proje('tile of such fifty 

fires, by an amount of not less than 5 per cent. of the average work stored in each of the projectiles of the 'ast fifty rounds previously fired from any such gun of that caliber, and this amount of work required of each gnn· for these fires shall not be reduced except by consent of the board and the una nimous consent of all of the producers of the guns of that caliber then competing; but any one of the competitors may, if be or they desire, increase the charge of either powder or projectiles for their guns. That repairs may be ma.de at the expense of the pmducer of any of the.se test guns, to cost not more, if made ordinarily, than 10 per cent. of the cost prescribed to be paid for like guns for sery ice dwing the first two hundred roun·ds of firing this test gun, and such a dditional firing as may be necessary to equalize for endurance the work of this ~un, and bring it up to that of its best competing gun of that caliber, as prov1ded in this section; additional repairs may thereafter be put upon any of these test guns to the extent that these repairs, with all previous repairs made after it has been submitted for test, shall not exceed in cost or kind such as could be made ordinarily for 20 per cent. of the price fixed in this act for service guns of their kind and caliber, tra nsportation not being included. That the time occupied by all repairs made during the first two hundred rounds fir~d from any test gun shall not exceed four months, except by consent of said board, and all further repairs of said gun which may be made after the fi.ring ·of the first two hundred rounds shall not exceed four months in all, with- out the consent of the board, such times for repairs to include the time used in transporting the guns t.berefor. That of the projectiles furnished for the first two hundred rounus to be fired from any of these guns, at least twenty, and forty if the board shall require, shall be suitable for range and accuracy, and five of these projectiles for each gun shall, if the board require, be suitable for penetration, and the balance of the two hundred rounds need be suitable for endw·ance only. That when the test for endurance of guns, which may be made for test under the provisions of this section, have been completed for the guns of either of &be specified calibers, It contract shall be made by order of the said board with that party or parties who shall have made the best 10-inch or 12-inch guns, respectively, which gun or guns has been fired at least two hundred rounds with the prescribed charges, and has shown, by all the tests thereof for endurance and accuracy, made as herein provided, that it is superior to all other competing guns of its class. The contract for these guns to be for fifty of the 10-inch and fifty of the 12-inch, and any and all of these service guns shall be equal in all respects to the trial gun tested, on which test the contract is or may be b sed. And the said board shall also authorize a contra~t for a like number of gun-car- riages suitable for use for such guns so contracted for, and for a few projectiles for each of said guns. ·T he carriages shall be furnished by the party or parties who furnish the guns for which they are made, provided such party or parties will furnish carriages suitable for use of their guns; and that party furnishing any such service guo tthall furnish the projectiles therefor, provided suitable contract can be made with them therefor. '£hat the prices of said service guns shall be as follows: For 10-inch rifle guns, not to exceed $48,000 each. and for 12-inch rifle guns, not to exceed $75,000 each; and the prices of the carriages for each of these respective guns shall be one- third of the price of the gun for which it is or shall be furnished; the p..rices of all these guns and carriages shall be modified according to the terms provided in sections 12, 13, and 14 of this act. That the said board may authorize the expenditure for the proof tests of the service guns and carriages of each class of these 10 or 12 inch rifle guns, for the projectiles for these guns, and for the transportation of the guns, carriages, and projectiles of either;classof the guns authorized in this section, a sum not exceed- ing 10 per cent. of the amount to be paid for all the guns and carriages of either of such classes respectively. The projectiles for any of these guns may be delivered with them, but shall not be delivered sooner than is the gun for which they are made. That all carriages furnished for the service 10-inch and 12-inch guns to be provided and furnished as prescribed in this section, shall have, and there shall be furnished therewith and as constituting a part thereof, all engines, ma- chinery, pumps, compressors, pipes and piping, valves, reservoirs, accumulators, and track: and bed plates necessary to operate them in the place they are in- tended to be used; and the said board shall give reasonable notice of the kind of place in which any such service gun is expected to work, so the contractor may be able to furnish a suitable carriage and appliances for the use of such gun in such place; but the contractor shall not be required to furnish with any such gun-carriage appliances complete for more than one kind of mounting with the necessary apparatus therewith for operating the gun for which it is to be made. Thus some a-uns may be m.ounted on carriages suitable for use on ships or floating batteries, with the necessary loading and other operating ap- pliances, while others may be mounted on carriages suitable for use in case- mates, and ot.bers for use behind earthworks and masonry so arranged as t.o 

XIX--:--510 

raise the gun at least 12 feet from the position of loading to that required when fired, if the said board shall so require; but the weights for accumulators for use on land need not be made of metal, nor if so made of either metal or masonry need such weights be furnished by the contractor at his expense, nor shall he or they be required to furnish with thes ~un·carriagesanyturretwork 

or masonry foundations of any kind whatsoever, or metal work for foundations except the foundatio~> track: and bed plate on which the gun-carriage rests and is traversed. When more than one gun is used in close proximity, the engines, pumps, accumulators, compressors, and such other machinery to be furnished with such gun-carriages need not be complete for each gun, but may be made to operate sets of two or more guns to the extent in number the board may . think desirable instead of being complete for each separate gun. For these fifty service 10-inch rif.l.es, and the fifty service 12-inch rifles, their carriages, projectiles, proof-tests, and transportation, the sum of $9,020,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary; to be available on and after July 1, 1894, at the rate of $1,500,000 per year, and to remain available until expended. SEC. 11. That it is herein provided that all guns contracted for as provided in section 10 to be delivered for service, shall be tested at the place or places where built, by the party furnishing the same, or at such other suitable place or places as he or they may pro,•ide, with not less than five nor more than ten rounds from each gun, with that charge equal to the maximum charge endured for two hundred rounds in the trial gun on which the contract for the gun of such cal- iber was made, the Government to furnish an officer to witness such test at the time the partv making the gun shall desire. The gun shall endure such tests without more injury than the ordinary wear and teat• of such guns should be, or that the ordinary wear and tear of the trial gun of that kind was in firing a l ike number of rounds of equal energy. The Government shall not accept guns which are seriously injured by this test, or which are injured more than the or- dinary wear and tear of such guns, unless the injured parts are replaced or made good, when the gun may be again tested, and must endure the test before it shall be accepted without more injury than ordinary wear and tes.r that such number of fires shall produce. The powder, cartridges, and projectiles for these tests shall be paid for by the Government at a reasonable price therefor. SEc. 12. That should any of the test guns of the kind to be contracted for as above provided in section 10 have endured a greater amount of work in fu·ing any two hundred rounds therefrom than that prescribed. namely, two hun- dred rounds of projectiles fan a\Terage weight equal to that provided for such guns in section 7, with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, the price of the service guns of that kind to be constructed for as per section 10 shall be increased above the price therein provided, to the extent of the average work: done on the projectiles by any such said test gun, on which the contract for service guns may be based, exceeded in firing any two hundred rounds that prescribed, namely, two hundred rounds, of a velocity of 2,000 feet per second, and the weight of projectile equal to that .fixed as a standard for such guns in section 7, and the price of the carriages for such service guns shall be increased in the same proportion, which increase of price of such guns and carriages shall be paid by the order of the board, or its authorized agent. · That all service guns, gun-carriages, projectiles, and cartridges therefo:r may be delivered to the Government at the place or places of manufacture. SEC. 13. That no service gun to be provided as specified in section 10 of either . of the specified calibers shall be a ccepted unless it appears t o be as good in all respects as was the trial gun furnished by the party with whom the contract for such service gun was made. And the party making contracts for any of these s ervice guns shall contract and guarantee that all material used therein shall be equal in quality and workmanship to that provided in the trial gun or guns on which the contract for such service gun was based, and that he or they n-ill institute a thorough system of tests by which they may know that all parts of the guns, as far as may be, are of good material and workmanship in all re- spects; the delivery of all these service guns to begin two years from the dates of the respective contracts therefor, and continue at such average rate as would compl,ete the delivery in not less than eight years from the dale of the respective contracts therefor. That all service guns and carriages therefor furnish ed under the proYisions of this act shall be paid for at time of delivery, and when delivered later than the dates so fixed shall have the price of the same at whi('h it would otherwise be paid for reduced by a reasonable amount for the time during which such de- lay of delivery takes place. But they may be delivered sooner. Sxc. H. That it is hereby provided that at any time during the execution of any contrad by any party or parties for 10-inch or 12-inch rifle guns to be made by them under the provisions of this act, such party or parties may furnish a gun of any such caliber as they may have such contract for, which gun m a y be made aft-er the plans and specifications provided in the orig inal contract for guns of that caliber, or after new plans and specifications to be provided by 

them, and such gun may be tested by them at their own expense in the presence of an officer who shall be detailed by said board on ordnance; and if such gun shows an endurance of being able to fire two hundred rounds with an average amount of work stored in its projectile when leaving the gun equal to 5 per cent. more thfn the average of the best two hundred fires selected from the fir- ing of the test gun under which such contract was based, then, in that case, the Government shall pay for such guh and carriage therefor, and the powder and projectiles used in such test, the price of the gun and carriage to be the regular 

price for such senrice guns of that caliber, and the carriage therefor, as deter- mined by sections 10, 12, and 13 of this act, and the contractor shall be at liberty to fill any part of the balance of his or their orde r for g uns of that caliber with guns of this new pattern instead of guns made after the original test-gun speci- fications on which be or they obtained the contract for such .guns, and the pay for such substitute guns and carriages therefor shall be modified to the extent the increase of work performed by such last test-gun in the best two hundred rounds fired therefrom exceeds that prescribed, as provided in section 12 of this act. 

But not more. than two such changes shall be made in the case of1he CO'I,ltract for the 10-inch or the 12-inch rifles, respectively, and all such subsequen t tests in which the new test gun or guns fail to excel the test gun on which the con- tracts were made by not giving, for the best two hun dred rounds fired t.here- from, more than 5 per cent. more work stored in the projectiles when leaving the gun than was given by the best two hundred rounds of the best test gun of that caliber, on which the contract for such guns was based, shall be at the ex- pense of the contractor. SEc. 15. That it is hereby provided tho.t in the case of lhe trial guns to be pro- vided for test under the provisions of sections 10. 15, and 16 of this act, that only the best two 10-inch test guns shall be paid for, even though they reach the de- gree of excellence required. That it is hereby provided that should more than five 12-inch guns be offered for test under the provisions of sections 10 and 16 of this act which withstand the prescribed test of two hundred fires under the conditions fixed in section 10, or which excel in endurance the said Army or the said Navy gun to be provided as per section 9 of this act, then in that case ·only the best five of said 12-incb guns provided under the terms of said Fection shall be paid for, with the ir car- riages, powder, projectiles, and supplies as therein provided, even though they shall have reached the degree of endurance specified; and in selecting the five to be paid for those shall be selected which have the greatest degree of endur- ance as shown when tested according t-o rules and provisions made in section 10 of this act. To carry out the provisions of this section, $1,099,000, or so much thereof as may be nece51;ary, t o be aYailable on and after July 1,1892, and until expended. 
8146 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. AUGUST 31, 

.~hat th~ tim~ of pa.ying for any of the test guns to be furnished under th-e pro- I Mr. PLUMB. I think perhaps the Senator may have the print that 

they are to be paid for consistently with all the provisions of this act. was ma e origma Y for the comnnttee. 

VISIOns of sectiOn 10 1s hereby modified to the extent necessary to find out that I d · · ll · 

That at any time dur~ng the test of any of t?ese trial gp.~s or carriages the Mr. HAWLEY. You refer to the provision reading: 

producer thereof may Withdraw the same, and lU case of Withdrawal no pay- And contract shall be made at a price reasonable in the opinion of the board, 

ment shall be made therefor. . . . . with the party presenting the best of such guns, for a further supplv of similar That all tria~ ~uns, gun_-oarriages, powder, or proJectiles fur~hed for test guns, to be subjected to the usual service test before acceptance, "the experi- under the pro~1s1~ns of th1s act, and not to be pa1d for, may be Withdrawn by mental gun and all guns purchased hereunder to be subject to inspection at. 

the party furmshing the same. each stage of manufacture SEc. 16. That it is hereby provided that all10 and 12 inch rifle guns for com- . petitive trial and tests to be made and tested as provided, in this act shall be I see what the Senator me.ans. I had not before seen the expression. fi.nished ready for. te~t on or before January 1,1892: Provided, That if no 12-inch I have bad another copy of the bill. 

rifle gun m~>de pnnc1pally or wholly of steel has been completed and offered for M PLU Th S 

test at that time which shall withstand the prescribed test of two hundred rounds r. ~~B. e enator has had a copy that was made for the use then the time for accepting such guns for competitive test as herein provided of the comm1ttee. 

shall be extended to Jamu\ry 1,1893. M:r. H.A WLEY. The experimental gun is mentioned. SEC. 17. The board shall make all reasonable efforts to make all the tests pro- M PLU I , ,, · vided for as quickly as possible after any such gun is ready for test· and all the J:. 1\IB. t says, The experimental gun and all guns pnrte.st experimenUI of guns shall be open to the inspection and obser~ation of all chased hereunder to be subject to inspection at each stage of manufactpart.ies furnishing guns of like calibers for test as provided in this act. ure '' 

That the Secretary of War and the Secretary of the Navy shall each assist this ... ~ H.A L y h · · · boardbydetailinganyanda.Uofficersandmenforils·usewhichitmayneedat J.ur.. wE .• Tat lS q~Ite ngbtJ. because they could not tell 

any and all times, o.nd by furnishing it, without charge, any and all facilities for anythmg about 1t unless they mspected It. 

testing any and all of the guns and gun-carri~ges to be prov~ded under t~is bill The pRESIDENT pro tempore. .Are there further amendments? 

to the extent that they are able so to do, and m general to aid the board tn any ....,. HAWLEY I h · way they can in Ca.rrying out the provisions of this act. J.l-';r. · ave an amendment to offer as an Independent SEc. 18. That all castings and forgings entering into the construction of the section. armamen~ provid.ed for in this act shall be of .America~ manufacture. The The PRESIDENT pro tempol"e. The question first is on the amend- board herem provided for shall annually report Its operatwns to the Secretary b th C · · · . of War, for submission to Congress, at the beginning of each se!sion, which re- ment reported Y e omnnttee on Appropriations as sect1on 6 as pox' shall state in detail the amount expended under eaah section of this act amended. 

and th~ pro~.:ress made in carrying ou~ its provisions, with such additional in- The amendment as amended was agreed to. 

formation as the board may deem adVIsable. u· HA''HLEY I fli d · SEc. 19. To enablo the board or Secretary of War to pay any premium that Ju.r. " · now 0 el" an amen ment to constitute section 7 

may become due to parties who may furnish service guns under the provisions of the bill. 

of t-his act the sum of 1,00<!,000, t? be avo.il~ble on and 9:rter the fiJ><:Rl year end- The ?RESIDENT pro tempore. The Secretary will report the pro- ing June, 1894, and to remam avmlable until used for this purpose 1f necessary. d d 

SEC, 20. That sectioQ. 2 of an act making approprihtions for fortifications and pose amen ment. 

other works of defense, and for the armament thereof, for the fiscal year end- The SECRETARY. It is proposed to ndd io the bill: 

ing June 30, 1885, and for other purposes, approved July 5, 188!, is hereby re- SEc. 7. Nothing contained in this act shall be construed to alter or repeal ex- pealed. . isting provisions of law prescribing the duties and powers of any department of 

The PRESIDENT pro tempo1·e. The question recurs upon agreeing tl1e Army. 

to the amendment of the Senator from Colorado [Mr. TELLERj to the Mr. HAWLEY. That, Mr. President, ·is by way of abundant canamendment of the Committee on Appropriations known as section 6. tion, because there are so many provisions here that might seem to 

Mr. PLUMB. I desire to say a word in regard to this provision. It differ from what is already laid down in the statutes as to the duties 

is a very elaborate provision, going far more into detail than I think of the different Army department:!. I do not wish them to be interany legislative provision ought to go. We shall have, when this bill fered with, because a body of Jaws of that kind that have been in exshall pass, a board, comprising the skill and judgment of the Army, istence for nearly a century, many of ~hem for fifty or sixty years, 

which will submit to us, if it becomes necessary to legislate on these should not be changed without serious consideration. I do not wish 

propositions, somelliing which we can act upon, I think, more intelli- the officers to be anxious lest they are interfered with~ nor do I wish 

gently than we can to-day. It is desirable now to make a start which to interfere with them. 

I fear the adoption of this provision will prevent. I think, therefore, Mr. GORMAN. · 1\fr. President, the amendment of the Senator from 

that irrespective of any discussion of its merits it ought not to be Connecticut [Mr. HAWLEY] would destroy the ba1·mony of this bill 

adopted. and reverse all that the Committee on Appropriations, after due con- Mr. GORMAN. I want to add to what the Senator from Kansas has sideration. have undertaken to do. That amendment provides that all 

said, as to the general provisions of the amendment ()ffered by the Sen- the money appropriated under this act shall be expended as provided 

ator fi·om Colorado, that I think many of them are very wise, and will in section 1164 of the Revised Statutes, which says: 

probably bec~)me absolutely necessary to be adopted by Congress if pri- It shall be the duty of the Chief of Ordnance to furnish estimates, and, under 

vate enterprises decline at any time he1·eafter to enter largely into the the direction of the Secretary of War, to make contracts and purchases, for promanufacture of guns. Bnt after careful consideration on the commit- curing the neces ary supplies of ordnance and ordnance stores for the use of the 

tee with my friend from Kansas, I concur with him in saying that at ai·mies of the United States, etc. 

present I do not believe it is possible to go to the extent provided for The framework of this bill ;md the real merit of it-and but for that 

in the amendment of the Senator from Colorado. I think the board provision I do not believe it would pass; it certainly would not receive 

and machinery provided for in the bill as reported from the Committee my approval-is that it provides for a boardt to consist of the general 

on .Appropriations is the best that can be had at this time. commanding the .Army, an ordnance officer, an artillery officer, and an 

The P H.ESI...>ENT p1·o tempore, The question is on agreeing to the . engineer officer to be selected by the Secretary of War, which board shall 

amendment of the Senatox from Colorado to the amendment of the expend every dollar of the money appropriated by this act, make t.be 

committee. test, and carry out all the provisions of the act. 

The amendment to the amendment was rejected. Now, Mr. President, I feel that I am stating the exac~ fact when I 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question recurs on agreeing to say that that was the unanimous opinion of the committe~; that the 

the amendment proposed by the Committee on Appropriations as only way by which we might get out of the rut which we have been in 

amended. was by malting this provision. The Senator from Connecticut [Mr. 

Mr. PLUMB. I wish to move an amendment to line 21, page 7. HAWLEY] now goes back and practically reverses all that we have done, 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. In which section? . simply saying that six or eight millions of dollars is hereby appropriMr. PLUMB. In section 6, after the word ''caliber,''to insert'' and ated, to be expended under the direction of the Ordnance Department. 

of weight and dimensious to be prescribed by the board." I find here this morning circulated, not generally but quietly-! have 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Secretary will report the pro- been fortunate enough to get hold of a copy of it-a statement preposed amendment. pared by one of the officers of the Ordnance DepartmAnt who was beThe SECRETARY. On page 7, line 21, after the word ''caliber," it fore the Committees on Appropriations of both Houses, who was then 

is proposed to insert the words "and of weight and dimensions to be subjected to a thorough examination: or rather bad fnll and free con-

'(>rescribed by the board." . ference with the committees, who knew and could not but know all the 

The amendment to the amendment was agreed to. provisions that were intende.d to be put into this act. When before 

Mr. HAWLEY._ I understood the Senator to say in private conver- the committee that officex placed his judgment against that of the 

sation that be expects the board will inspect this specimen gun during General of the Army, who did not hesitate to say that the provision 

the proce&'l of its manufacture. I do not see how that is provided for. precisely as we have it in the first section, providing for that board and 

Mr. PLUMB. I think that is amplyprovidedfm;on the top ofpage bringing every branch of the service under its direction, is tbe one 

8. The Senn.tor will observe that this experimental gun, if it stands mode and probably the only mode by which we will have efficiency, 

the test which bas been prescribed for its manufacture by the board, economy, and honest results. 

shall be purchased, and Jle win find that on page 8 of the bill it is pro- I will say to my friend from Connecticut, taking notice as we are 

vided that the "experimental gun" {by name) "and all guns pur- bound to do from the public prints of occurrences elsewhere, and being 

chased hereunder'' shall be ''subject to inspection at each stage of as anxious as be is to go on with this work of putting our fortifications 

manufacture.'' 1 in proper condition, it would be infinitely better that no appropriat-ion 

M:r. HAWLEY. I did not see the words "experimental gun" in whatever should be made at this session, and I do not believe that it 

that connection. is possible to get so many millions of dollars, or one-half the amount, 

.Mr. PLUMB. The Senator will find them at the top of page 8. or one-tenth the amount placed at the disposal of officers who have not 

Mr. HA WI.EY. I may have a different print of the bill. accomplished anything in the past twenty years. We have attempted 
1888. CONGRESSIONAL R.ECORD~SENATE. 8147 

·in the committee to raise the question of armament out of that rut and 

pnt it in such shape that we may have the experience of four or five 

officers, the best officers in the service. As the bi!l was reported from 

the Committee on Appropriations with an engineer officer, an ordnance 

officer, an arUllery officer, and the commanding general, we were to 

have the judgment of these men before a single dollar could be expended under this act. 

What o~jection has the Senator to it? Why does he prefer that the 

Ordnroice Department should make these contracts? The Senator from 

Kentucky [Mr. BECK] asks me what the communication I have is. 

The subcommittee had before it the general commanding the Army, 

and Capta.in Smith, and another ordnance officer, both on dut.y at the 

Ordnance Department, and conferred with them fully and freely as to 

the details of thls bill. Each bad ample opportunity to make any suggestions he thought proper. 

They were consulted about the phraseology of parts of the bill. 

Whatever o~jections they bad were well conside1·ed. The provision 

giving control of the expenditures of every kind to be made under t!tis 

act to the board named did not, of course, meet with fa,·or from the 

Ordnance Office, but it was satisfactory to the general commanding the 

Army. The committee reported ~he bill. There was, so far as I know, no official communication whatever from the 'Var Department, but I 

have found here to·rlay o. primte document criticising the bill se,·erely. 

They assert "that the provision to supplant the services of this (the 

Ordnance) Department by a hastily devised board is harsh in the ex~ 

treme, and in the absence of sufficient reason therefor can not be justified as a measure neces:::~ny for the public good." 

The author of this communication, I baYe good reason to believe, is 

Captain Smith, now in charge of the Ordn:mcc Department. He attempts to . instruct Congress and to criticise a committee of this body as having reported a measure which is not for the public good I He 

insists that his board, and his board alone, should have the expenditure 

of the money appropriated. These officers have the right to express 

their opinions freely and frankly when called upon by a committee or by resolution, bnt they have no right to use the Government's money 

to print documents for private circulation against the passage of any 

bill that Congress may deem proper or that a. committee may iormulate. 

It is an outrageous attempt to influence legislation, and I will say 

that I hope the attention of the Sec1·etm·y of Wa1· or of the President 

will be called to the matter. In my opinion an officer who is engaged 

in such work ought to be sent away from Washington and placed in some remote part of the Union. I have never known since I have been 

connected with legislative bodies such an outrageous attempt on the part 

of snbordina te officers. As I have once before stated, these officers are in 

the corridors and in the gruleries during the discus~don of these Army bills 

and they send memorandums into the Senate and use the influence of 

their position, not to serve the Government, but to the end that $4,000,-

000 may be placed in their hands to be expended. Ordinarily and in 

private life it would be regarded as showing too much interest in the 

large appropriations to be made. '.J2he motive must be ascertained. 

They are not content with sufficient appropriations for the Government 

s;hop, but this captain declares that section a·is in conflict with existing laws. What be desires is to prevent private persons from competing. Why should capable, honest officers fear an open field and honest competition? _ 

I shall ask to have this document, which I brand as an outrage, 

coming as it does from an officer of this Government, printed in the 

RECORD, and by the side of it, with the permission of the Senate, I 'lvill 

have printed a report of Colonel Laidley, an officer lateJy deceased, who was probably the brightest officer in the service, a man who bad the 

courage. to differ from those who are now in charge of the Ordnance 

Department. He takes an entirely different view of the value of castiron guns and cast-iron mortars. He takes the view that is embraced in 

this bill, and .as I have never been able to get but one copy of it, I shall 

ask permission of the Senate to print his statement, so that Senators 

and members of Congress may have an opportunity to look at it. 

Papers are as follows: 

No.1. 

CO::lDIENTS ON THE ACT "MAKING APPROPRIATIONS FOR FORTIFICATIONS AND 

OTIIER WORKS OF DEFE -sE AND THEm ARMAMENT, FOR THE PROCUREMENT 

AND TRIAL OF HE:A.VY ORDNANCE IN SERVICE, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES." 

Tbe provisions of section 1, as they relate to t.he powers and duties of a pro- posed Board of Ordnance and Fortifications, is in direct conflict with section 1 L64 of the Re·vised Statutes, which makes it the "duty of the Chief of Ordnance to furnisli estimates, and, under the direction of the Secreta.J;"y of War, to make contracts and purchases, for procuring the necessary supplies of ordnance and 

ordua!lce stores, for the use of the Army of the United States; to direct the in· 

spection and proving of the same, and to direct the construction of all cannon and carriages, ammunition wagons, traveling forges, artificers' wagons, and of every implement and apparatus for ordnance, and the preparation of all kinds 

of ammunition and ordnance stores constructed or prepared for said service." 

Thls section has been on the statute-book since February 3, 1815, and is the 

orgnnic law prescribillg the duties of the Ordnance Department under the Sec· 

retnry of War. This law has thus been in force about seventy-three years, and 

under a test of two wars has demonstrated by satisfactory working the wisdom 

of the enactment. No good grounds now exist for its practical abolishment as proposed in tb.e bill. Under existing law ~he only •. ti~s that could be assi~ed properly to th1s board would be of an adviSory nature m respect to the duties 

of the Secretary of War. But it is always competent for the Secretary of War who is intrusted with the exp~ditnresofthemoneys appropriated, to convene 

such a board, if in his judgment it appears expedient. Such was the course pursued by the Secretary of the Navy with regard to the appropriations for re- building the Navy, but nc provision to that effect was embodied in the naval 

appropriation bills. The appointment of an advisory board is more properly a ministerial measure, and should, it is believed, be left to the discretion of the 

executive department, particularly where, as in the present case, there is a regularly organized and permanent technical department available for the duties required, which may render such a board superfluous, and thus a needless expense. 

Section 4: The careful estimates show that it will require $250,000 to erect the necessary shops and permanent. futures for the construction of guns, inclusive 

of guns of 12 inches in caliber; for the purchase of the necessary machinery and 

tools, as lathes, boring mills, planers, rifling machines, cranes, etc.; $550,000 will 

be necessary in order to fabricate the following quantities of guns per annum, namely, ten 8-inch guns, six 10-inch guns, and four 12-inch guns-a. somewhat 

smaller output than specified in the Gun Foundry Board report. The above 

foots up to a total of $800,000, to which should be added, for two sets of officers' 

quarters, $2LI,OOO, making an aggregate of $320,000. Under the sundry civil bill 

about $35,000 was appropriated for gun plaTJt at 'Vatervliet arsenal, and there is on hand a,·ailable beav):-gun plant at the arsenal, amounting in value to about 

$35,000, so that the above sum may be reduced by '70,000, or to $750,000. A less sum than $250,000 will not complete the shops, and it is important, for economic 

1·easons. to procure as many of the needed tools at one time as possible. It is 

equally important in point of time to procure all the needed tools at once. The amount appropriated in section4 for this purpose, namely, $550,000, is too small. 'l'be estimate of $750,000 required for a gun factory to fabricate guns up to~­

inch caliber is larger than the estimate of the Gun Fom;).(lry Board for that pur- pose. But the estimates of the Gun Foundry Board are much too small, both as respects the number and cost of the necessary tools. This is fully demonstrated 

by the Nl\vy experience in the establishment of the gun factory at the navy- yard, and it is confirmed by the estimates made by the Army Ordnance Depart- ment based on the current market prices for tools so far as they can be obtained. 

Se~tion 6 conflicts with section 1164 of the Revised Statutes in that it empowers the board to mltke contracts and purchases ftnd to direct the proof of ordnance 

and ordnance stores and the construction of cannon, etc., for issue to the serv- ice. The effect of this will be to supersede, to a large extent, the present Ord- nance Department and to substitute therefor a newly-constituted board which 

has not been especially trained for the technical duties performed by the Ord- nance Department. The Ordnance and Fortifications Board proposed in the bill, should it prepare its own designs for guns and ordnance material, would require more than a year's study and investigation for this preliminary work. It would then have no guaranty whatever that its plans were sound and free from defects until guns had been ·made in accordance with them and tested. It would be in no position to call for bids until this preliminary work bad been done. Should it invite 

plans from outside sources it would still be necessary to first malre and test the guns. The only alternative wonld be to fall back on the plans., the experience 

and ability of the ordnance officers, and simply take their work out of their 

hands, or require that they carry it on under another than t.heir legally-constituted head, the Ordnance Bureau: This arraugementcan not lead to satisfactory 

results, and is most unjust to the officer~ of the Ordnance Department. This 

Department has during the past few years designed and worked up experimentally field, siege, and sencoast material that is unsurpassed. - The steel field-gun has been thoroughly tested and is not'equa.led for light- ness and power by a similar gun in any European service. The 8-inch built-up 

steel gun has been subjected to a severe test of over two hundred rounds, and 

has gi>en ballistic results that surpass the Krupp 8!-inch gun of a considerably 

greater length of bore. The great development of cannon powders, gun steel, 

and gun construction as an engineering art is, to a very large ex ten~, due to the 

investigations and labors of the Ordnance Department. and to the encourage- ment and information which it has given to manufacturers. The proposition to supplant the services of this department by a hastily-devised board is injudicious and harsh in the extreme, and in the absence of sufficient reason therefor can not be justified as a measure necessary for t.he public good. A further serious objection must be raised to the creation of this board on 'the 

ground of economy-in the expenditures of the Government. The board prac- tically constitutes a new bureau supplementary to the present Engineer and 

Ordnance Departments. .A.lthongh not provided for in the present bill, the cer- tain outcome of this legislation will make it necessary in subsequent years to provide a clerical force and all the paraphernalia of a new bureau in the War Depariment to enable this board to properly record and systematize the duties 

and acts which H has to perform. The Engineer and Ordnance Departments are now fully organized to carry out such work, and their tiles contain the rec- ords of all previous work of the kind. The transfer or transcription of tllese 

records, with which the new board must become thoroughly acquainted to properly perform its duties, the creation of new clerkships, and the duplication to a considerable extent of similar work which will remain in the bureaus as at present organized, can only result in additional and wasteful expenditures. 

With regard to the provision for cast-iron mortars, it is known that those 

mort3.rs are overstrained every time they are fired. Their endurance, then, be- comes a question of how many such overstrains they will stand, and in view 

of the fact that one mortar might differ materially from another in this respect, 

it is thought that either two mortars should be tested or one should be tested 

by at least four hundred rounds. \Vith regard to the provision in this section 

for 10 and 12 inch steel guns the Ordnance Department has no objection to make. 

The amou1,1ts appropriated by the bill are as follows: 

Section 2- For protection, etc., of fortifications ............... ~................ $100,000 

Sea \Valls and embankments............................................. 117,000 

Torpedoes, etc........ ............................................................ 500,000 

Section 3- Guns, carriages, projectiles, etc......................................... · 500, 000 

Testing and experimenting with high explosives............ 100,000 

Section 4- Gun factory........................................................................ 550,000 

Gun steel ................. : ........................................................ 2,500,(1()() 

$717,000 

GOO, COO 

----- 3, 050,000 

SectionsCast-iron steel-hooped mortars ....................................................... . Section 6- Expenses of board ......................................................... .; ................ . 

250,000 

5,000 

4,622,000 

The amounts of obligation by the Government authorized but not appropriated for are: 

~~l~pp~~:Pri~~d ~~d. ~i'i~·;~d.'.'. ::·. :·.·. :::: ::·::::::::::::.::::: :::::::::::::::::: ::·. :·:.::: ro: ~~: ggg As no limit is placed to the number of pieces which may be presented for test under section 6, and as all such which may come up to a prescribed standard, 

. --
8148 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. AUGUST 31, 

and t.heir am~unition, must be paid for, the part of the $6,000,000, allowed under that section which shall be de\oted to the procurement of guns and mortars for the service is undefined. 

sand and forty-seventh fire, and of the last eighty rounds the pressures were as follows: 

If sections I and 6 were thrown out, the remainder would consiitute a. logical and practical bill, free from uncertain and objectionable featui·es, and closely resembling t-he bill as it passed the House. 1 

The passage of the bi!l in the exact form in which i_t passed the House would atlord a speedy and sattsfactory solutwn of the questiOn. 

!round, the pressure was less than 20,000 pounds per square inch. 5 rounds, the pressures were less than 271000 pounds per squar.e inch. 52 rounds, the pressures were 30,(J()() pounas or more persquareinch. 32 rounds, the pressures w ere40,000poundsor morepersqua.rein h. 

23 rounds, the pressures were 50,000 pounds or more per square inch. 13 rounds, the pres.;ures were 70,000 pounds or more per square !ncb. 5 rounds, the pressures were 90, OOU pounds or more per square mch. 1 round, the pressure was 150,000 pounds per square inck. WATERTOWN ARSENAL,.July 14, 1881. The other gun was fired in 1866 eight hundred and forty-five rounds, susB d .I' rr 0 d N. Yi k O't tnining the following pressures: · TothePraidenl ofthe oar 0

J .u.eavy r nance, ew or ly: 2drounds,thepressureswerelesstha.n20,000poundspersquareiych. Sm: I have the honor respectfully to submit for your consideration, together 59 rounds, the pressures were less than 7, 000 pounds per square inch. 

with my reasons therefor, the pr,oposition to recommend as ''worthy of actual 766 rounds, the pressures were 30,000 pounds or more per square inch. test" the following-named guns: 449 rounds, the pressures were 40, OOOpounds or more per square inch. 

First. An 8-inch cast-iron, rifled gun, represented in Figure I, and cast us de- 222 rounds, the pres ures were 50,000 pounds or more per square inch. 

scribed on page ~5. . . . . . . . 111 rounds, Lhe pressures were 70, OOU ~JOunds or more per square i?ch. Second. An 8-tnch cast-Iron, rifled gun, F1gure 2, lined With a thin bronze 13 rounds, Lhepressureswerel2:'i,lJOOpoundsormorepersquare~nch . 

tube. . . 12 rounds, the pressures werel50, 000 pounds or more per square mch. Third . . An 8-inch cast-iron, rifled gun, breech-.loadmg, Figure 3, and further 

1

. This gun has since been fired nineteen times, making in aU eight hundred and descr ibed on page 16. . . sixty-four rounds, and is still so.und. . It will be observed that these guns are all cast-Irol) guns, dependm~ S<?lely The charge of powder was in most cases 15 pounds, occupying 12 mches of upon this material for their strength, except only the br ech-lo ader, which Isrc- the bore, or an area of 300square inches. in forced at the breech by a supplementary steel band. Here we have two cast-iron guns which have been fired a greater number of It m ay be regarded by some of the m~mbers of the .board an ftlready settled times and with greater strains per square inch of the bore pressed than either question, as claimed by sm;ne, that cast-Iron. guns r~qmre to be streng;thened be- of the converted guns. 

fore they can sa.fely be subjected to the strams which they ~ave to ":lths~!"ud a s ' ¥hat the equivalent of a pressure of 150,000 pounds per square inch may be t·itled guns, and I shall therefore endeavor to show that thiS assertion, h true, in terms of pressures of 27,000 pounds no one wiU pretend to be able to say. has neyer. been pr<;>v.ed to _be true~ but on the eo~ tra_ry there are strong reasons The only experimen~s which have been made on this subjec.t show th~t a. slight for behevmg that It IS entirely :Wit~o~t f<?unda:ti<;>n IU fact.. . . .. reduction in the stram adds yery greatly to the number of tl.mes that It.may be The Ordnauce Boa.rd of 1868,, m givm~ Its op1m~m on _this subject, said, Th~ repeated. Thus a specimen of cast-iron subjected to a stram of ~.000 poun_ds success of the experiments w1th the ~-mel~ cast-Ir~n rifle at Fort Monroe ev1- per square inch endured this strain one hundred and twenty:five t.Imes, and Its dently demonstro.tes tha.t further tna.ls with cast-Iron, recommended by the duplicate endured a. strain of 27,000 pounds two hundred and fifty times. From Chief of Ordnance. in his annual report for 1867, should be matle." t-his it would be fair to infer that twelve strains of 150,000 pounds per square '!'he board, which met iu~e~York in 1872 t? designate what heavY: guns should inch would be equivalent to many hundreds <?f only 27,000 pounds. be tested, expressed the .. op~rnon ~bat experu;n~nts should. be co_ntmued by the A though these two are the only rifled cast-uon guns which have been tes~d 

prdnance Dcpartme.nt! With a view to o.btan;ung such untformity ol pres~ur~~ by firing expanding projectiles, several smooth-bo.re gu~s of the s_ame exteriOr as shall render RdmiSSJble the use of cast-Iron In heavy ordnance constructiOn. size have been fired from time to time and a consideration of thetr endurance The board evidently did not regard it _at that time as. an established ~act t~at will be instructive, and can hardly fall to give us a greater respect for cast-iron cast-iron would not answer for heavy nfle~guns, an_d It mu;:;t be.borne In mmd as a material to be used in the construction of heavy ordnance. that no experiments have been made bearmg on th1s questwn.sm~e that ttme. The first to which I shall invite your attention islU-inch gun No.2, W. P. F., The board was of opinion that, as soon as ou!' powder and proJe~ttles had been 1846, a cha.mi.Jered gun of imperfect model. lt was fired- so improved as to give nniform results,cast-tron would be ava.Ila?le as a ma- 100 rounds, with 18 pounds of powder, and 1 ~olid shot. terial for heavy guns· General Rodman had expressed to a committee of Con- 1 round with 18 pounds of powder and 2 solid shot. gress tbe same opinion, and i~.~873 the C!t~ef of _o~·~~ance, General P,yer, in his lround: with 18 pounds of powder: and 3 sol~d shot. annual report, recommended, m the spirit ~f jUdiCIOU;'I econ<?my, .an appro- 1 round, with 18 pounds of powder, and 4 so~d shot. 

priation of 575,000 for the manufa?ture and trial o_f cast-Iron 12-mch r1~ed guns. 1 round, with 18 pounds of powder, and 5 sol~d shot. He gave in f~ll the reas~ns for thiS recommendatiOn., namely, that the Imprm·e- I round, with 18 pounds of powder, and 6 sol~d shot. ments made m both proJectiles and powder had been such th~t th.e f<;>rmer would 1 round, with 18 pounds of po_wder, and 7 solid shot. o ffer a uniform resista.n~e to ~he pressure <?f tp.e p_owder, whiCh I~ 1ts turn gave I round, with 18 pounds of powder, and 8 sol~d shot. "increased initial veloc1ty w1th marked d_Immutwn of pressure. 1 round, with 18 pounds of powder, and~ so~d shot. As Ohief of Ordnance, he must of necess1ty have known whether the results 1 round, with 36 pounds of pow.der, and 9 solid shot .. of experiments had already proved that cast-1ron was not strong en.ough tore- It must be remembered that this powder was what IS known as mortar-pow- sist the strains, and on this account wo!lld not. answer for heavy rifled gun~; der, and gave a strain with a single shot of over 70,000 pounds. per square m.c~. 

that he did not know of ~ny ~uch e~eriment!! 1:9 cle~r f~o.m the fact that,~e said 'Vhat the strains were with the other charges can only be <;onjectured, but It IS 

that •• this recommendatiOn IS ma.d~ m the sp1r1t of JUdiciOus economy. perfectly clear that they must have been very much mor~ violent than any that '\Ve have then the eoncurrentopmions of the Ordnance B<?ard of 1868, approved modern rifled guns are ever made to bear; and that this gun should have en- by the Chief of 0!-'dna.nce, the Board_o~ H~vy Ordnance.m 1872, General. Rod- dured the last charge of 36 J?OUnds o~ quick powder and 1,130 pounds of shot man, and the Chief of Ordnance a~am m h1s report of ~873, that th~ questiOn of without bursting, after havmg previously endured a n~mbe.r of enormous the fitness of cast-iron for heavy rifles was not at that time determmed, but ~as strains shows that this cast-iron gun at least was not deficient m strength. an open one requirin,?; furt.her experiments; and as no tests ~ave been smce The ~ext which I shall bring to your notice are 10-inch Rodman guns, Nos. made it follo~s that the question is still an open one, not de1imtcly settled, but 362 and 363, F. P. F., one cast solid and the other hollow. 'l'he:;e guns I fired ill 1·eruaininoo to be solved by further trials. 1858 2 450 limes each. They were afterwards fired by Oaptam Dyer, at Fort I shall ::ow proceed to show that the we!g~t of evidence! from th~ enduran~e Monr~e 1,632 rounds more, making in all 4,082 times each, besides the proof· of cast-iron guns which have been tes~ed, IS m favor of this. material as a. SUit. rounds, with the following charges: able one for rifled guns of at least 8 ~nches _bore, a~d t<? bnng !og-ether a por- 2,396 rounds, with 14 pounds of mortar-powder,1 shot and sabot. tion of this evidence, that you ma:y Imp~rt~ally wei,gh 1~, and JUdge whether 12 rounds, with 15 pounds of morta.r-powder,1 shot and sabot. it be sufficient to warrant further tnals bemg made w1th nfled gnns constl'ucted 14 rounds, with 16 pounds of mortar-powder,1 shot and sabot. 

solely of this metal. . . . 15 rounds, with 17 pounds of mortar-powder, 1 shot and sabot. But what are the enormous stratns that heavy nfled gun;'! have to resiSt? .When 1, 645 rounds, with 18 pounds of mortar-powder,! shot and sabot. rifled guns of largecaliber fir_:§t began to be used, the qUJck PO":der and.rmper- 1 round, with 20 pounds of mortar-powder and wad. feet projectiles at that time used developed such enor.ruous ~trams that 1t came I round, with 24 pounds of mortar-powder,,! shell, sabot, and wad. to be generally believed that rifled guns were _necessarii~sub~e<:ted to fa!-' greater The guns are still unbroken. The pressures wit~ 18 pounds of powder, when strains than smooth-bore guns of the same Size, and this opmion contmueci to the guns were new were 71,950 pounds per square Inch, and at the close of the obtain for many years thereafter. Even ~ithin a fe~ .YeRrs back, ~hen the .10- tiring 39,793 pound~ per square inch.. . inch convei·ted gun blew out a large portion of the lmmg tube, tearmg off With If we multiply the area of the bore m the rear of the !'hot by the ma~Imnm 

it the muzzle of the gun, it was accounted for by som~ by :w~ t was called the strain per square inch, we find that these two guns for 1,600 rounds res1sted. a drag of the projectil.e passing through the bore. Th1s optmon has, of course, g-reater aggregate of strains_ each round than any of the converted guns, and In ceased to be entertamed. several instances nearly twice as much. Professor Bartlett and others have inyes~igated thoroughly the str~ins brought Here, then, we have two more cast-iron .guns which have shown themselves on riJ:I.ed guns, and it is now a well-established fact that these str~~;ms a~e only not only capable of enduring greater strams t~an the converted guns .are sub- slightly greater than tho_se borne by the smooth-~ore gun. The 8-mch rifle pr?- iect to, but also of resisting tbe molecular disturbance caused by firmg 4,082 

jectile leaves the bore With only ~8 feet less Yelomty, as.cal~ul~~d by Bartlett s rounds. . . . formula than would be eommumcated to the same proJectile if 1tha~ no rotary The next 10-inch gun which was fired repeatedly with high charges was No. motion.' Powder and projectiles have been so impro~ed that the actwn of each 1442, s. B. F., 1863. It was fired- . is as ret?ular and uniform in the rifl~d gnu a~ in the smooth-bore; 1\fl<_l, as e~ 1,000 rounds with 15 pounds cannon powder and 1 S?hd shot or shell.* marked by Professsor Bartlett., t)l~ failure of rifl~d guns mu~t ~e soug~t m some . 100 rounds with 20 pounds cannon powder and sol!d shot. other cause than the superaddition of the pulhng ';\n~ twistmg. s~rams to that 100 1·ounds with 25 pounds cannon powder and sol~d shot. 

which acts to split the piece; and so fa1· as the prmciples of rdhng are con- 100 rounds with 30 pounds cannon powder and S?hd shot. cerned these guns may be made as safe as the common smooth-bores. There- 100 rounds with 30 pounds quick powder and solid shot. 

port or' the Chief of Ordnance, l878, page 4~1>. gives the pressures on the bo:e o~- The pressures were with 25 pounds of cannon powder39,225 pounds per square taiued in the trials of three 8-inch converted g_uns, the endurance of :whwh ~s inch. 

regarded as so highly satisfactory that the Chief of Ordnance, speakmg of 1t., The pressures were with 30 pounds of cannon powder 54,000 pounds per sqnaro says, "Our success has been so consistent, so t.hor~ugh, so complete, that we inch. . . • . consider it an admit·able system of gun constructiOn. One gun endured a mean The pressures were w1th 30 pounds of qmck powder 64,900 pounds per square recorded strain of 26,462 pounds per square. inch, from 710 rounds; another stood inch. . . 

the same strain from 776 rounds; an~ a thud was subjected to a mean recorded The last 10-inchgun which was t~ted 1s No. 542, S: 11~<:1.\'I. & C? .. This &"un was pressure of 27,189 pounds per square me~, from 590 ro~ds. . . supposed to be defective from ha.vmg too great an Imt1al stram 1n coohng. It 

'.fhe gun first mentione<_l was not reqUired to bear a smgl.e stra.m as great as was fired- · · 29,000 pounds per square m<;h; the next endured three st~a~ns greater than 40,- 18 rounds, with 18 pounds powder and shot of 127 pounds. 000 pounds, the greatest bemgo 43,000 pounds, fifteen of 35,000 pounds or more, 17 rounds, with 20 pounds powder and shot of 127 pounds. and three hundred and t.wenty:two of 30,000 ~ounds or more. The other, ~red 2 rounds, with 22 pounds powder and shot of 127 pounds. 

only five hundred and nmety tlmes, .bore strai?S of 30,000 pounds or ~ore,, fifty- 456 rounds, wit.h 25 pounds powder and shot of 127 pounds. six times; 35,000 pounds or more, thuty-four times; 40.000 or more, mne times; 125 rounds, with 26 pounds powder and shot of 127 pounds. 60,000 pounds or more, four times; and o~e strain of 56,000 pounds per ~quare 4 rounds, with 27 pounds powder and shot of 127 pounds. inch. The length of the cartridge was ~2 mches,and the area.ofthe borem re~r 1 round, wilh 28 pounds powder and shot of 127 pounds. of the projectile 595 square inches, m!lkmg t.he a~gregat.e strm!l endured by thiS 8 rounds, with 30 pounds powder and shot of 127 pounds. last gun 16,177,455 pounds, repeated five J;lundred and nmety tu~es. . 11 ronnrls, with 32 pounds powder and shot of 127 pounds. Will an 8-inch rifled gun, made of cast-Iron, endure these stra.ms thiS number 3 rounds, with 35 pounds Oriental powder No.5 and shot of 127 pounds. 

of times? . . • This question is best answered by showing what cast iron guns of th1s s,1ze 645 total. 

have done. Only two cu.striron 8-inch rifled guus ha\·e been tested by fin~g ----------------~--------------­ with expanding projectiles. The record of th~ first I ~ave been able to obtam cmly this far, that it was fired at Fort Monroe m 1864; It burst at the one thon- *One-fifth were solid shot1 the rest shells. 
~- ----------------------------------------------------------~------~------------~--------------------------------------------------------------~ 

1888. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD~SE ATE. 8149 

The pressures were as follows: 18 rounds, 20.000 to 30,000 pounds per square inch. 17 rounds, 22,000 to 60,000 pounds per square inch. 2 rounds, 23,000 t<O 26,000 pounds per square inch. 456 rounds, 22,000 to 65,{)(J() pounds per square inch. 125 rounds, 21,000 to 72,000 pounds per square inch. 4 rounds, 33,000 to 51,000 pounds per square inch. 1 round, 54,000 pounds per square inch • . 8rounds, 26,000 to 100,000 pounds per square inch. 11 rounds, 19,000 to 58.000 pounds per square inch. 3 rounds, 10,000 to 18,000 pounds per square inch. In estimating the work done by the gun at each discharge, it has been as- sumed that the part of the bore subjected to the maximum strain is that in rear of the shot at the moment of discharge, but the experiments of Noble and .Abel 

show t.hat with pebble powder the shot has moved about 6 inches from its seat at the tlme the strain has 1·eached its maximum. No experiments have been made in tllis country, that I am aware of, t.o determine this point for our pow- ders. In t.he smallergraic.edpowderswith which the guns just considered were fired , the shot, though lighte r, did not probably move as far as in the converted gu ns, and on this account the amount of work done would have to be corrected somewha t, but to what extent we have not the necessary information to deter- mine. 

These experiments show what are the capabilities of cast-iron as a material for guns-wha t" it has done and what it can be made to do. Witll such facts be- fore the mind, it seems strange tha t any one can be found who doubts there- liability of cast-iron for ri.Jled guns of at least 8 inches bore. It was the careful study of this demonstration of the ability of cast-iron to resist enormous strains often repeated (results not 2'enerally known by officers), and an intelligent 

appreciation of their bearing and w_eight that led General Rodman to express the opinion "that after we shall have procured a projectile that is as certain in its operation in the rifled gun as the round shot is in the smooth-bore, we can, by firing to extremity one or two 12-inch rifl es, fix a limit within which the gun may be considered as absolutely sa.fe." I for one am of the opinion that the conclusion is abundantly warranted by the facts. But we, at thls present time, are not rel1uired to decide the question of tl1e fitness of cast-iron for rifled guns solely on the evidence which has been just 

adduced. Within the last year or two other experiments have been made hav· 

ing an intiru::~.te bearing on this subject. throwing much light on it and render- ing it far easier of a definite solution. To these I shall now briefly allude. 

In 1878 I induced the boa rd for ~sting iron, steel, and other metals to grant me an appropriation of 51,000 to make experiments on the resist.ance to inter- nal strains of thick cast-iron cylinders, some of which were to be lined with 

wrought-iron or bronze tubes. These experiments were not completed until September last, and oroved conclusively that the cylinder was weaker in pro- portion as it was cut away to make room for t-h e lining tube. · Cast-iron cylinders 11 inches in diameter and 22 inches long were -bored out to a diameter of 3.3 inches, filled with beeswax to a depth of 10 inches, and n. 

pressure applied to a closely fitting piston until the cylinder was burst. Simi- lar cylinde rs were bored out to receive a lining of wrought-iron formed of the. same meta l and in the same manner as the wrought-iron tubes used in the con- 'Version of H)-inch guns, the interior diameter of the lining being the same as the first-mentioned cylinders. The circumst.1.nces of the trials were the same as nearly as possible in bot.h cases, and the strength of the cast-iron cylinders was fo und to be about 18 per cent. greater than those lined with wrought-iron. Ex- periments were also made to test the effect of continuing the bore through the breech and afterwards closing it with a screw-plug. These last cylinders were found to have about 5 per cent. less strength than that with a. solid breech. These experiments show that since a new and better gun can be made for a less sum than that paid for the conversion of theoldguri, it was an error to con- -vert any of the L'l.tter; but such conversion having been determined upon, it was an error to enlarge the bore at all with the view to increasing the thickness of the wrought-iron lining; and it further diminished the strength to continue the bore through the breech in order to insert the lining from the rear. It was also an error to make the tube in two parts, thereby still further decreasing lts traverse resistance. • General H.odman has proved beyond a. doubt that the sudden strain exe1·ted by inflamed gunpowder does not partake of the nature of a blow, but is a press- ure quickly applied and as quickly relieved; it diff rs from the pressure ex- erted by the tt-sting machine only in the rate of application and release of the strain. The efl'ect of this rapid application ha::~ been carefully considered by both l\fullet and Rodman, and the conclusion reached is, "that the excessive strain upon the gun above that due to statical pressure, caused by the most rapid rate of application or development of that pressure, is a very small per- centage of the tot,a l strain." General Rodman based his whole system of gun construction upon the result<; obtained by the testing machine, and, so far as I am aware, the correctness of his conclnsions has never been questioned. So too, Colonel (now General) Rosset, of the Italian army, has based his present 

system of guns, in which the combination of wrought and cast iron has been re- iected, on the results obtained by the testing machine. · It has been u rged with great confidence by some that the results obtained by these experiments are in direct conflict with certain gurrpowder tests made by 

Sir Joseph \Vhitwortb, which are rega.rded as conclusive in pl'Oving that cast.- iron guns are not as strong as similar guns lined with wrougbt-irou tubes. The account of these experiments as given by Sir Joseph himself shows that they were undertaken to prove the superiority of his compressed steel over wrought-iron, cast-iron lined with wrought-iron, and in fact all other materials for guns. He took a cylinder made of cast-iron "which I (he) knew to be of good quality," 26 inches long, 7.83 inches in diameter, and a bore of 2.56 inches. The euds were closed with steel plungers, after having introduced 3 ounces of powder, and secured by steel caps screwed on. The cylinder burst into twenty 

pieces. lie adds: "I have also had a cylinder made of cast-iron, with a coiled wrought-iron tube inside to repre ent the proportions adopted in the conversion of old 8-inch smooth-bore guns into rifled 64·pounders. The inner diameter or bore was 2.56 inches; the thickness of tbe w1·ought-iron tube, 0.690 inch; and the outside diameter, 7.83 inches . . The area of cast-iron was not sufficient to support the end strain, and the caps were held together by additional screws fitted into an external casing. Four charges were fired, the weight of powder being 5, 6, 8, and 10 ounces respectively. The enlargement of the cylinder after the discharge of 8 ounces w as 0.0317 inches on the inside, and 0.0017 inches on the outside. The fourth discharge of only 10 ounces broke the cylinder into fragments, n amely ,.,.of cast-iron one hundred and·seventy-four'and of wrought- iron seven pieces." 

It is to be borne in mind that these experiments were not made for the pur- pose of comparing' cast-iron guns with similar ones lined with wrought-it·on · the cast-iron in the two cases was not identical; it was not gun·iron, aud therC: fore the comparative strength of the two cylinders proves nothing as to the strength of guns lined and not lined with wrought-iron. That the iron was not gun-iron is ~videntfrom several considerations. In the first place it is not spoken of as anythmg more than" good iron." How good it was, what was its tensile strength, its density, elasticity, o1· extensibility, is not stated, and was not probably known. An iron which will stand 12,000 pounds per square inch is in Eng- land considered a good iron, but we do not think of making guns of such metal· for this J?Urpose o~ly the best cold-blast charcoal iron, melted in nn air furnace: 11.1~-d havmg a tens1l~ ~~·ength of 30,90_0 po.unds per square inch as the minimum, 

w1t.h. a good extenslbllHy and elastiCity, 1s eyer thought of as a proper gun-iron. 

' 

The very., fact that 3 ounces of powder burst a cyli-nder of2.56 inches bore and 2.5 inches thickness shows conelusively that t·he iron was not gun-iron, and the additional fact that 10 ounces of powder burst a similar cylinder 1.945 inches thick, with a wrought-iron lining 0.69-inch thick, into one hundred and._se\'ent.y- four fra~:::ments is incontestable proof that ihis was not such an iron as guns are made of. 

It is further to be observed that the two cylinders were not te!<ted under the same cb-cumstances. The lined cylinder was entirely relieved from all lougi- tudinal strains, for "the cap:! were held together by additional screws fitted into an external casing." '!'hat this arrangement enabled the lined cylinder to offer greater resistance there can be no doubt, but to what extent it is difficult to es- timate. 

That any logical conclusions conflicting with the results obtained from my experiments on cylinders can be drawn from Sir Joseph's powder tests, just de- scribed, is so e'l'idently impossible that further remark is unnecessary. If, however, in place of my deductions, based on these trials, you should pre- fer to have the results of direct experiments, I am glad to be able to lay such results before you, for I have recently bad the satisfaction of witnessing some carefully conducted experiments made by Capt. John G. Butler, Ordnance De- partment, wherein he proposed to repeat Whitworth's powder test of iron cyl- mders, using our gun-iron of known good quality. Two cylinders were cast from the same ladleful of metal. turned to the same exterior dimensions, and bored out the same as Whitworth's, and one of them lined with a wrought-iron tube of the best quality. These were fired with 3, 4, G, 8, and 10 ounces of pow- der taken from the same barrel. After resisting the 8-ounce charge, the simple cast-iron cylinder showed no increase in the exterior diameter; the lined one was enlarged 0.008 inch. The bore of the former hao.l enlarged O.Ol5 inch, the latter0.052 inch; and it is plain that the lined cylinder was nearer the point of rupture than the other. The charges of 10 ounces, which increased the strain more than 25 per cent., ruptured both cylinders, the cast-iron of each breaking into twenty-six pieces, and the tube into seven pieces additional. . This powder test, then, confirms the re:mlls of the expe riments made with the testing-machine, and extinguishes forever the unsupported claim of the superior 

strength of the lined cylinder. I have still one more fact which I wish to lay before you before closing my nrg·ument in favor of the superior strength of cast-iron guns o-ve r those lined with wrought-iron tubes. It is the result of an experiment made with gunpow- det·, and it seems to rue to be concl usiye on this subject. 

Finding that there was no prospect of the Ordnance Department authorizing a.ny experiments to show whether gunpowde r would confirm or disprove the verdict of the testing· machine in r egard to the strength of cast-iron guns, and regarding the question a.s one of great impot·tance to the country, I proceeded to procure on my own account two cast-iron guns representing accurately in exterior model the 10-inch Rodman guns to a scale of four-t-enths the full size, and to line one of them with a coiled wrought-iron t-ube made in the S.'l me way and of the same metal as the tubes used in the conversion of guns; the other was of simple cast-iron. The guns were cast solid ft·om the same ladleful of metal, and were finished without trunnions, and of the same size in every par- ticul:u as neat·ly as possible. The model se lected was that of the converted 

8-inch rifle. The maximum diameter was 12.8 inches, and that of the bore 3.2 inches. The weights w ere 955 and 93H pounds, respectively. The guns were fired under the same circumstances, with charg·es of 2.5 pounds of powder, and first with a shot weighing 22 poWlds,second with one of 3()t pounds, aud after- wards with two shot of the lase-: named weight. The cast-iron gun proved su- perior to the lined gun in about the same proportion as had been found by the experiments wit,h statical pressures, and we have the verdict of Eouperior 

strength of the cast-iron gun over that of cast-iron lined with a. wrought-iron tube. 

pronounced in the first place by the testing-machine, now confirmed by actual trial with g·unpowder in a. gun of 3.2-inch bore. I have onJy briefly referred to these trials for the reason that my reports of September 11, 1880, and June 25, 1881, to the Chief of Ordnance will doubtless be laid before you under the direction to "furnish the boa,rd_with all the information on the subject in his possession." · lam of t11e opinion that it is not advisable to convert the 10-inch smooth-bore guns into rilles. The object of the trials which I here propose is to show that it will be far more economical to make new guns, which shall be in en•ry re- spect superior to the converted guns, and can be produced at the same or less cost. I propose to make an 8-inch rifle longer and hea·der than the converted gun, to cast it breech uppermost, the hollow core passing through th'3 breech, 

with the view of avoiding the initial strainstha.tareknown to exist in guns cast with a solid breech; to tire it to extremity wtth a proper powder, to be deter- mined by trial, which s:hall give an initial velocity of 1,290 feet or more, or con- tinue the firing until its superiority shall be conclusively established. It is well known that cast-iron guns begin to break from the interior, cracks form and the gases entering therein act on a larger area, and finally burst the gun. The extent to which this shortens the life of the gun is not known,and it is proposed to determine it by the gun No.2, which bas a thin tube of bronze lining the bore; the tube may be turned and grooved on its exterior and then inserted in the bore, or the cheaper plan of lining only the chamber w.ay be used. 

It is proposed to fire this gun under exactly the same circumstances, with the same charges, etc., as the first-, and thus determine the question whether the increased cost is compensated by the greater endurance of the gun. The Heavy Ordnance Board of 18i2t·ecorumended that a breech-loading gun, wit·h the slotted-screw breech similar to that used by the French, Swedes, and Italians. should be tested. No such trial has ever yet been made by the Ord- nance Department, and the success which has attended this plan in other coun- tries and our own Navy, its greater simplicity and less cost-, compa red with t.he plan adopted, render it highly desirable that a fair trial of its medts should be made. 

No.3 represents such a. gun. It will be cast breech uppermost, cocled from the interior, and have a thin band of steel around the breech. 'rhe guns here proposed have received the approval of one of the great gun· founders of the country, who has adopted the first and second, the latter without the supplemenfury steel band, and recommends tllem as good models for cast- iron guns. The vast extent of our seacoast which calls for protection is so great as tore· quire large rifled·guns by the thousand; and the question of what material they sllall be constructed becomes one of the greatest importance. 'We have cast- iron of the best quality, and we understand the manner of treating it in order to make uniformly superior guns of the largest caliber. If these guns will an- swer as well as those of more expensive construction, it is highly important that we should know it at once. If they shall prove to be superior to those which we are now making, as I believe they will do, and as I think the facts which I have here adduced will warrant us in believing, we can not have the proof of it too soon. General Rodman proposed to improve the quality of our cast-iron guns by 

improving the metal of which they are made, and the best mode of doing this he carefully elaborated; but the present adopted plan of increasing the effi- ciency of our heavy ordnance discards this plan, and in its place adopts a· cer- tain combination of wrought and cast iron, thereby adding greatly to the cost of production, and, according to the results of the experiments just men- tioned, diminishing in a marked degree the strength and endurance of the gun. Whether it he advisable to continue the fabrication of large guus on this latter plan without firs~ comparing their endurance with that o"f cast-iron guns pure 
8150 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. AUGUST 31, 

nnd simple, as herein proposed, is a question left. to you to decide, with the aid 

of all the light that can be thrown upon it by the latest experimehts.. supplemented by such as you may deem it wise to make. ,. T. T. S. LAIDLEY, Colonet of Ordnance. 

Now, sir, I appeal to the Senator from Connecticut, who I know is 

earnest in wanting this work to go on, that after two or three years' 

patient and earnest consideration of this question by the committees 

as to the proper course to pu...'"Slle, and after having finally reached a conclusion that we believe makes it possible not only for the Government to begin the construction of these guns, but where, also, the door 

for the first time in twenty-five years is thrown open to the private 

manufactru:ers-1 appeal to the Senator not to obstruct this legislation, not to destroy it, by pressing an amendment which can have but 

that one effect 

Mr. HAWLEY. I am a good deal surprised by the remarks of the 

Senator from Maryland [ Ir. GoRMAN]. The bill as it stands now does 

not profess to take away the powers of any one of the departments of 

the Army, nor in my judgment does it really do so. I should be glad 

to have the honor of the Senator's attention, because I am talking to 

him directly. I should like to know the paragraph of this bill which 

changes existing la.w-a thing that would be out of order anyhow if 

put in the bill. I do not know how the bill does change existing law. 

Theappointmentofboardsadvisory and supervisory is a common custom 

both in the Army and in the Navy. I am glad in many respects to see the scheme started of hn.ving one, even a permanent advisory board in 

the Ordnance Department, a board to which all inventors and schemers, 

if you will, may come with their devices, some good, some bad, some wise, and some foolish, where all may come with their ideas and submit them. I am glad, too, that this board are to have this money to 

expend, so that where they have a thing submitted to them they may 

try it,, and if it be a good thing they can recommend it to the Secretary 

of War for further expenditure, and he can recommend to Congress the 

particuJar improvement, whatever it may be. But when ever they adopt an improvement or whenever they ad vi e the construction of a gun and 

the expenditure of money, then that goes on under the ordinary statutes, even with the bill as it is drawn up. The bill says the moneyShall be expended under the direct supervision of a. board to consist of the com- m:!mding general of the Army, an officer of engineers, two officers of ordnance, 

and an officer of artillery, to be selected by the Secretary of War, to be called 

and known as the board of ordnance and fortification. 

Now, how is the money expended? Q.Winarily in most of these matters they ask for bids from private citizens, and contracts are made as a result. Is it to be suppo ed that this bqard of five officers is to ap- near in a contract as the contracting party, that they are to sign all the eon tracts requiring ordnance for the Army? Not at all. Section 1164 

of the Revised Statutes directs that. The Secretary of War or the 

Chief of Engineers signs the contract, and the money will be expended 

in the ordinary way upon the proper certificates, vouchers, etc. 

The amendment I have offered is simply, from excess perhaps of 

caution, to provide that nothing shouJd be taken from the engineers or artillery officers in their ordinary duties by this statute; nor do I think 

it very essential that my amendment should be adopted, because I do 

not think it is done anyhow. This board has no powers that the Secretary of War could not put on a board at any time. 

A word now with regard to the reflections of the Senator from l\Iaryland on the ordnance officers. His censure, l\Ir. President, is undeserved. So far as the presence of the officers is concerned about the 

corridors and galleries of the Senate, I say very frankly that as to the 

whole discussion upon the Army bill and upon this bill I have requested the attendance of an officer about this building to whom I 

might refer in a minute some technical question that might arise, for 

the benefit of the Senate as well as for my own information. 

I do not knowthat these youngmen have been here (sometimes one, 

sometimes two) on a single occasion except at my own personal request, 

either by my telling them or telephoning to them that the bill was up 

and that I wished them to come up to the Capitol, because que tions 

might arise about caliber or cost or material or a hundred things bearing upon the subject that I might wish to be informed about. 

lli. GORMAN. With that statement of the Senator, and of course I must accept it, the officers have a right to be exonerated. May I 

ask the Senator whether he requested Captain Smith or any other ord- nance officer to be here to circuL'lte, without signature, the statement 

of which I hold a copy in my hand? 

1\Ir. HAWLEY. I do not know what the statement is to which the 

Senator from Maryland refers, but the captain at my request and in 

my room made· a memorandum of points that he had orally made to 

me, and I asked him questions about various provisions of the bill, 

which he answered with such rapidity and lucidity that! said to him, 11 You must write those down; I can not remember them; they are 

points that are valuable." He gave me afterward a type-written statement, which I have here, in which I see nothing disrespectful what- ever. One page of it I quoted nearly literally in my remarks of yesterday, and there are other remark~ here in the form of comments on the appropriations made by the bill-and stating that if section so-and- · so were thrown out so-and-so would result, and defending the provis- ions of section 1 as related to the proposed board of ordnance and fortifications and all that. Now, whether this is or is not the one that he 

has printed I do not know. He told me this morning he had given a 

paper to, I think, the Senator from Iowa [Mr. ALLISON] and to the 

Senator from Kansas [Mr. PLUMB]. I do not know whether he included the Senator from Maryland [Mr. GoRMAN] or not, but he named one or two other Senators to whom he had given the paper. I told 

him to give one to theSenn.torfromNebraska LM.r. MANDERSO~], who 

is a member of the Military Committee. There is no mystery about 

this, Ur. President, nor is there any intentional disrespect in any part 

of it; none whatever. I take the responsibility of the whole transaction, unless in the entirely improbable case (I venture to say that can not be SQ) that in printing the statement which he showed to me he 

added something improper; and that can not be. In this that I have 

here there is nothing whatever out of the way. 

Mr. GORMAN. When the fact is that these officers in the different branches of the public service had the opportunity and were re- q nested to make every suggestion that it was possible for them to 

make with regard to this matter to the Committee on Appropriations 

when the committee took this matter up, and when the legislation was pending between these two Houses-when, I say, these officers 

had the opportunity to make every suggestion that they desired to 

make, when lili.ey knew that the general commanding the Army had 

agreed that the provi.aions of this bill were the best that it was possible to make in the interest of the Government, I ask the Senator 

whether he thinks it is right that afterward a subordinate officer of the .. 

Army should come here and circulate, partially, an argument against 

the very bill that he knew had been so considered, and when the only 

effect of his argument would be to place all the money that was appropriated in the hands of his bureau, and to exclude the possibility 

of private enterprise competing with them. Is it not an outrage? · Mr. HAWLEY. The Senator puts a construction on this matter 

which it does not admit of at all, if·that statement be the one I have 

here, written with a type-wrHer. I am very glad to have the statement 

in the RECORD, because it will itself be a sufficient answer to the Sen- ator"s criticism. If the same as mine, it was written at my personal 

request, and given to Senators at IPY personal request, as criticism upon 

the whole of the pending bill. I tn,ka the entire responsibility on my 

shoulders. 

Mr. BECK. In view of what bas happened I give notice that at the 

proper time I shall move to make the number of ordnance officers of 

this board not two, bot one, and let it stand as the committee brought 

it in. There is some object why two ordnance officers want to get so many things into the bill. Mr. HAWLEY. I made that motion myself. 

Mr. BECK. I know the Senator did. 

Mr. HAWLEY. I can tell the Senator what the object is. There 

is no mystery in it. I wish the Senator were not so quick to see mystery in things. Mr. BECK. I am a member of the committee, and I do not think 

that private papers should be handed to some members that Senators 

generally can not see. 1\Ir. HAWLEY. Captain Smith had no charge of the general distribution of these papers. The persons to whom he gave the papers were persons who e names I suggested. Now, as to the point of having two 

ordnance officers on the board, that is not a suggestion of my own, but 

of the commanding general of the Army. Originally one ordnance 

officer, one artillery officer, one engineer officer, and the commanding 

general of the Army were to compose the board and consider thew hole 

business of ordnance and supplies. It is evident that the ordnance officer would be the working member 

of the board, and it is evident that occasions would arise when the en- gineer and artillery officers would overrule the ordnance officer, w bo 

is really practically, as well as presumptively, entitled to more con- sideration than the others because ordnance is his life-protession. General Schofield said to me that there should be two ordnance officers 

instead of one, and then an artillery and an engineer officer. He uppo ed that they would agree almost always, but it was quite possible 

that some time they might not agree, and he preferred that the ordnnncc 

officer might not be overruled. So it was arranged that inca e of a tie the 

commandi..og general of the .Army could decide. He thought the work 

would be better done in every way by that arrangement, and that is 

the reason I moved that amendment. 

lli. DOLPH. Early in the session there was a bill introduced into 

the House of Representatives providing for a contract with the South 

Boston Iron Works for cast-iron mortars and guns. I received and I 

suppose every member of Congress received a printed brief, m..'lde up by a prominent attorney of this city, in favor of that bill, undertaking to 

show Senators and Representatives why they should make a contract 

with this private company for the purpose of furnishing these guns to 

the Government. Now, we have severe criticisms upon an o.llicer of 

the Ordnance Corps because, at the request of the chairman of the 

Committee on Military Affairs, be bas made a statement which he Las 

submitted and nresented to certain Senators. 

1\ir. BECK. What I complain of is that they did not distribute them. 

If an officer of the Army gives information to tbeSenateoftbe United 

States the Senate has a rjght to have it as a Senate, and each membc:r 

has a right to it. 
1888. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 8151 

Mr. DOLPH. I do not ·understand so. I think any Senator of this 

body bas a right to go and see any officer of the Army, whether ~f the 

Engineer Corps or the Ordnance Corps or any other, and get any information he desires on any subject of legislafjon. 

Mr. BECK. Nobody denies that. 

Jlrir. DOLPH. I will get to the proposition in a moment if the Senator will permit me. 1\Ir. BECK. What I deny is that any officer of the Army has a right 

to come here and distribute for the use of a few Senators or Members of 

Congress any communication tbat he intends to affect a matter beiore 

the Senate or Honse of Representatives. 

Mr. DOLPH. I assert that any officer of the Army, having naturally an interest in any question beiore Congress, or any officer of the Navy 

similarly placed, bas a right to see any Member of Congress or Senator 

and inrnish him in writing or in print a statement as to the effect of 

the measure, or a statement concerning his views, if he does it at his 

own expense, and I say he is not insubordinate in doing so. Mr. HAWLEY. I wish to make an explanation before we go any 

further. I have seen an officer of the Ordnance Corps within the last 

three minutes, since this matter has been up, and he has explained to 

me that this paper is official, and that the Secretary of War to-day 

sent it officially to the committees of both Houses. · 1\lr. ALLISON. That is what I rose to say when I sought the floor 

at the moment the Senator from Connecticut was recognized. 

Mr. BECK. Does the Senator say that it was sent? 

1\-ir. HAWLEY. It has been sent officially by the Secretary of War. 

The Senator from Iowa can explain about it~ 

Mr. ALLISON. As chairman of the Committee on Appropriations 

I received to-day--

1\Ir. BECK. How long ago was this received? 

Mr. ALLISON. I sboultl say three hours ago I received, as chairman 

of the Committee on Appropriations, a communication from the Secretary of War, inclosing a communication from the acting Chief of Ordnance, and calling my attention to it. I called the attention of the 

Senator from Kansas to it and be said he had himself received a copy 

of it. Supposing this deoate would slide along in a pleasant, agreeable 

way, I did not have it presented and read to the Senate. As it has 

been mentioned, however, I will now have the Acting Secretary's letter 

re.'ld at the Secretary's desk. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The commnni~ation will be read. 

The Chief Clerk read as follows: 

WAR DEPARTMENT, Washington City, August 31.1888. 

SIR: I have the honor to transmit herewith. for the consideration ofyourcommittee, a letter of this date from the ac>ting Chief of Ordnance, with comments on the fortification bill now pending in the Senate. Very respectfully, -

Hon. WILLIA::U: B. ALLISOY, 

R. MACFEELY, 

.Acting Secretary of War. 

Chairman Committee on Approp1·iations, Un·ited Stales Senate. 

0RDYANCE OFFICE, WAR DEPARTMENT, 

Washington, D. C., August 31,1888. 

Sm: I have the honor to inclose -herewith some comments on the fortifica- tions bill now pending in the Senate, and request that, with your approval, the same may be sent to the chairm:tn of the 8enate Committee on Appropriations. 

As the provisions of tllis bill, so f::u n:s they relate to the duties of the Board of Ordnance and Fortifications, are in direct conflict with those of section ll6c!, Re- vised Statutes, prescribing the duties of the Chief of Ordnance-a statute that . bas been in force for seventy-three years-! deem it important that the atten- tion of the Senate should be specially called to this matter, and t.o the comments herewit h . Very respectfully, your obedient.servant, CHAS. L. SMITH, 

Captain Ordnance Department, United States Army, 

The Hon. SECRETARY OF ,.WAR. Acting Chief of Ordnance. 

Mr. GORMAN. I will ask if that is the entire communication? 

1\Ir. ALLISON. That incloses the comment.s. I did not have those 

read, because I understood they were the subject of debate. 

Air. GORUAN. I have presented a copy to the Senate, and I wanted 

to kn'Jw if this letter included tbat. 

Mr. DOLP ll. I think some Senators nre entirely too sensitive about 

the part taken by the officers of the Ordnance Corps in regard to this 

question of fortifications. It is true that the jurisdiction of this bill 

is with the Committee on Appropriations; but I suppose they have to 

get their information in regard to it like other members of the Senate. Mr. GORMAN. Will the Senator permit me to ask the Senator from 

Iowa another question-whether the ... comments" included in this 

official communication were signed, or is this the only communication 

that-is signed? The copy I have is without signature. 

Mr. ALLISON. This paper is without signature. It is headed, 

"Comments on the a-ct 'making appropriations for fortifications and 

other works of def(mse, for the armament thereof, for t .J e procurement 

of heavy ordnance for trial and service, and for other purposes.'" 

Mr. HALE. It is precis~ly the same paper that the Senator from 

Maryland [Mr. GORl\I.AN] sent to the desk and had printed. 

Mr. GORMAN. Do I understand that these "comments" printed 

and in circulation in the Senate Chamber this morning are the product 

of Captain Smith, now acting Chief of Ordnanct~? 

Mr. ALLISON. He so states, as I understand, in his letter to the 

Secretary of War. I find that this docnmen t is marked with the words 

and :figures ''War Department, 4, 080 A: 1888 "-the words 1

' War Depru:tment" and the figures '

1 1888" being in black ink, w bile the 1

'4,080 A:'' are in red ink. 

Mr. HAWLEY. A single suggestion more. The Senator from 1\Iaryland referred to the ordnance officers as desiring to keep the entire ex- penditure for these con¥rnctions and so forth in theh own hands. 

This very paper that has been submitted contains this clause: 

'Vith regard to the provision in this section for 10 and 12 inch steel guns the Ordnance Department have no objection to mn.ke. 

That is the provision inviting bids for manufacture according to the 

specimen gun, and involving several million dollars of expenditure. 

That is the most important provision regarding the construction of 

guns, and as to that this paper states that the OrdnanceDepartmenthas 

no objection to make. 

Mr. DOLPH. I repeat what! said, that there is an oversensitiveness as to what the officers of ordnance think about this question of fortifications. As I have said. before, the Appropriations Committee have 

charge of this bill. The Senate appointed a Committee on Coast De- • fenses and did me the honor to make me chairman of it. I supposed 

there was some duty connected with that, and so have felt interested 

in the subject. The Committee on Military Affairs reported an amendment to the Army appropriation bill, and that was placed as a Senate 

amendment to the bill as it came from the Honse. I suppose every 

Senator desires sufficient information to vote intelligently on this matter, and whenever a bill is introduced, evidently in the interest of pri- vate parties, the South Boston Company or any other, not only are Senators importuned on all occasions as to every scheme, but printed 

briefs are prepared and sent to every Senator; and it would be a strange 

thing if an 'bfficer of the Ordnance Corps, believing that be could im- part some information on the subject, sheuld not be at liberty to submit his yiews, publicly if you please, or in private by oral or written 

communications. Mr. PLUMB. Let me interrupt the Senator a moment to remark 

that what be has said about private parties is entirely gratuitous. Tb~ 

provision as it came from the Honse for $500,000 for the purchase of 

cast-iron mortars was contained in the estimates of the War Department submitted by tills very Ordnance Department to the Secretary of 

War, and by him to the Secretary of the Treasury. The officers did 

appear before the Committee on Appropriations (I think I may state 

this without any impropriety) and stated that the e~penditure would be 

made through the medium of the South Boston Iron Works.. So far, 

therefore, as that concern is embraced in the criticism of the Senator 

from Oregon it is a criticism of the Ordnance Bureau which he is. now defending. Mr. DOLPH. The Senator is entirely mistaken in regard to what I 

said. It was stated yesterday by the Senator from Connecticut, and I 

think appears in the statements of others also, that in all probability 

the South Boston Iron Works would have the benefit of most of this 

bill; that is, in regard to mortars of cast-iron bodies and hoops of steel, 

and as regards cast-iron mortars; but I did not refer to this provision 

in my remarks to-day, and my remarks will show that I referred to·a 

provision in another branch of Congress, which provided for a large ap- propriation for cast-iron guns. Mr. PLUMB. I understood the Senator to say that the Committee on Appropriations were instrumental in doing something which wa.s going· to involve a private speculation and that it had been said that 

tha Committee on Appropriations had not been careful about it. The' 

moment that is attempted to be shown there will be something said 

that will not be comfortable to some persons. 

Mr. DOLPH. If the Senator means to refer to anything that would . be uncomfortable to me, he can say it now. 

Mr. PLUMB. I do not mean that at all; I do not refer to the Senator, but to the people who have set in motion this proceeding. That 

is all. This paper refers not to what took place in another body, but 

to the present bill, and is a · sharp, clear, selfish criticism of it, and I 

think an impertinent one in some respects, with all due respect to 

everybody else. I think it decidedly impertinent, but so far as I am 

concerned I can take those things; but when it comes to members of 

this body proceeding to castigate _somebody becanse private speculation is involved, or something of that kind, I think they ought to be 

particular. · 

Mr. DOLPH. The Senator is entirely mistaken with regard to my 

remarks, as the RECORD to--morrow morning will show. 

Mr. PLUMB. I should prefer to know what the RECORD shows today about this matter. · lli. DOLPH. Then what the RECORD shows to-day. The RECORD 

will show to-morrow, so far as I am concerned, that I did say that when a bill is introduced which is in the interest of a private corporation or party or for something which the Government does not want and the 

Government officers do not recommend, then every member of Congress is notified on every-occasion and a printed argument in favor of 

the measure is sent to every member of the Senate. That is what I 

said. 

I did not intimate that any provision of this bill was in the interest 
8152 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. AUGUST 31, 

of any private corporation, bnt I do think that, as I said yesterday, the 

proposition to purchase cast-iron mortars and hooped mortars is all 

wrongJ and that the moneys ought not to be appropriated. 

I n regard to the provisions of this bill, I am not criticising anybody 

in connection with them. I am simply asserting that in my judgment 

an officer of the Ordnance Corps has as good a right to be heard and to 

give an opinion to the Senat~ as the attorneys of private parties. ·1\Ir. PLUMB. As to there being any disposition to prevent these people from being heard, not only was there none, but they were sent for. 

So far as I know, there has never been an investigation in the Committee on Appropriations on this subject without the ordnance officers being 

sent for; and not only were they listened to with entire respect and 

questioned about everythlng bearing on the subject in hand so far as 

the facts were concerned, but were also invited to present their opinions as to the propositions that were involved. 

For my part I do not think much of this printed article that has 

been refened to. I think the effect of it is heightened by its being 

sent through the Secretary of War, !1lthough it was not only sent 

through the Secretary of War but it was circulated privately, because 

the Senator from Iowa handed me a copy which was not sent through 

the Committee on Appropriations, and evide!J.tly was designed for private circulation among the members of the Senate with the view of af- fecting this bill. It was not necessary to get the Public Printer to set 

it up and print and distribute copies of it for the purpose of having it 

known that the Ordnance Bureau was working against this bill. That 

goes without saying. Consequently the expenditure of the moneyfifty or sixty or more dollars-whatever the expense was, although entirely illegal in my judgment and worthy of reprobation, was unnec- essary. This paper does not limit itself to a general descrjption of the 

proposed amendments, -but indulges in what I thlnk impertinent criticism of the Senate and of the committee which proposed the measure; 

and I do not think it consistent with the relations that exist between 

the legislative and executive departments of the Government. 

I do not care to say anything further about it; but going back to the 

amendment of the Senator from Connecticut [Mr. HAWLEY], I want 

. to say that, with all due respect to the Senator from Maryland [Mr. 

GoRMAN], it bas been my idea. all the w~ile that the Or~nance Bu- -reau and the Engin~er Bureau and the Artillery Bureau or branches ot 

'the sen ice ehould, under the direction of this board, expend the money 

to be expended wt thin the j nrisdiction' of these various bureaus. I do 

not think it would be desirable that they should go outside of these 

bureaus for the purpose of getting some new force to make this ex- penditlilre-a new set of clerks, a new set of Army officerS, and so on. - Therefore I do not think the amendment of the Senator from Connecticut is necessary, and at the same time I am not unwilling that it . should be put upon the bill, inasmuch as he seems to wish it to be 

done. _ I say that because in the first place I believe we have a. great deal of 

talent' in all these branches of the service. I believe we have very ac- complished engineer officers, but I sincerely believe that they are not 

only not thoroughly competent for all thls work, but I believe t~at 

Conrrress will not give it all to them to do, and that those who are m- tere~ted a great deal more than I am in theirrepresentativecapacityin 

what is called coast defense and in provi!;tions for fortifications ought to 

be very willing and anxious that a board should be created which would 

have the confidence of Congress, a'! the present Ordnance Bureau has 

not, whether wrongfully or otherwise. _ Now to show how frail this Ordnance Bureau is, and to how small 

thin!rS it can descend for the purpose of influencing legislation, let me read this paragraph from this anonymous circular-tor that is what it is: 

A further serious objection must be raised to the creation of this board on the 

ground of economy in the expenditures of the Government. 

There is a lecture for you ''as is a lecture " on the subject of economy-and from the Ordnance Bureau! 

The board practi<'ally constitutes a new bureau supplementary to the present 

Engineer and Ordnance Departments. · 

Something that they will find entirely apart from the legal effect of 

the measure. It will not be "supplemental" to anything; it will be 

superior to everything, or else it will not be what it is intended to be. 

Although not provided for in the present bill- · 

Of course from the incompetency of Congress- the certain outcome of this legislation will ma.ke it, necessary in subsequent y ears to provide a clerical force and all the paraphernalia. of a new bureau in 

the War Department to enable this board to ~rop rly record and systematize the duties and acts which it has to perform. The Engineer and Ordnance Departments are now fully organized to carry out such .workDisinterested testimony, of course!-

and their files contain the records of all previous work of the kind. The trans- fer or transcript,ion of these records, with which the new board must become thorou~hly acquainted to properly perform its duties, the creation of new clerkships, and the duplication to a considerable extent of similar work which will rema in in the bureaus as at present organized, can only result in additional and 

wasteful expenditures. 

Another Daniel come to judgment! We are actually being lectured .on account of our extravagance by these very bureaus of the Govern- ment that have been bounding us for years because we did not give 

them money enough to indulge in extravagance of the most extraordinary kind. I object to being lectured in that way. 

I should not have called attention to it if it had not been called up 

otherwise. I have proceeded · in all these matters with the utmost 

good-will toward the individuals composing that bureau, and with the 

belief that it was not only wise but a part of the purpose of this bill 

that they should cany cut those things which properly pertain to their 

duties, a..c;; a result of the duties which are to be performed by the board 

that is created. That is all I have to say on the subject. 

Mr. HALE. Mr. President, I received one of these circulars, which 

is headedComments on the act "making appropriations for fortifications and other 

works of defense, for the arm anent thereof, for the procul'ement of heavy ord- nance for trial and service, and for other purposes." 

I read it over, not carefully, rather hastily. It did not seem to me that there was anything in it that indicated any disrespect on the part 

of the Ordnance Department in getting it up, if it was got up by them. 

I did not agree, and do not agree, with some of its criticisms, and I 

p:.tSSed the paper over to the Senator from .Maryland [.Mr. GoRl\fAN], 

who has taken a deep interest in this bil1, thinking that perhaps it 

might be worth his while to look at it and see if there was anything 

in it of importance, while the bill was being discussed by the Senate. . In looking at it again I do not ~ee that tbe Senate· or the Committee 

on Appropriations, whose provisions upo!.l the bill I think in many re- gards will accomplish good, need be sensiti\"e about it.. As the Senator from Oregon [Mr. DoLrH] has said, ''"e get e;-ery day from outside parties and from parties in the Dep:ntments as well, suggestions 

and comments upon pending bills, and I did not look upon this as anything more than tha.t. I do not ilelieve that the members of the Ord- nance Department intended in this matter to do anything that should 

'be disrespectful to the Senate or to the committee. 

Mr. GORUAN. I shouldliketoasktheSenatorfrom:M:ainewhether 

in his long experience in the Senate, when the head of a Department or one of the subordinate officers of this Government has been before 

the Committee on Appropriations and had ample opportunity to dis- cuss a measure, he has ever known before such a criticism upon the ac- tion of a committee, after they had reported a bill, as in this case? 

Mr. HALE. Well, yes, I have known instances whe1·e I have had 

the management of bills myself, where the conclusion arrived ~t by 

the committee finally in reporting the bill was not in accord with the 

desires of the Depal;tment, where the Department has sent up objections and criticisms on the course pursued, and I ha\"e not felt that 

there was anything disrespectful in their doing that. I would not 

agree with their criticisms and would not perhaps modifY the bill, but 

until the bill passed I take it that they may send in suggestions. 

Ur. PLUMB. I will ask the Senator from 11faine whether be ever before heard of one of the Departments complaining of the extravagance of Congress in enacting legislation? -. Mr. HALE. I agree entirely with the Senator from Kansas in that 

regard. Congress is never able to keep up with the claims, require- ments, and demands of. the Departments; no matter how much·money we appropriate, we are always behind wha.t they want us to expend. I do not suppose the Ordnance Department is any more economical than 

the others. · 

Mr. BECK. I only desire to say as to the part I took'in the matter, 

that I read over the article referred to by the Senator from_ Maryland 

[Mr. GoRMAN]. I looked over my desk and O\"er the desks around me here and I doubt whether a single copy of that paper has reached this 

sid.e of the Chamber. 

Mr. PLATT. I have not had any, on the opposite side. 

Mr. BECK. I do not thlnk any copy reached here, except that 

banded to the Senator from Maryland by the Senator from Maine. If 

there is one here I have not seen it. These men have had an opportunity of being heard before the Committee on Appropriationsr and then 

they send an anonymous communication here-for that is what it is; 

it is not signed by anybody. To be sure it comes also through the War 

Department now, though that fact was not known to one of us until 

the Senator from Iowa mentioned it a moment ago. But that was not a respectable way even for the Acting Secretary of War to treat a com- mittee of this Congress. I do not know any of these ordnance officers, 

but I agree, after reading that thing and the lecture they saw fit to 

give us, that the Senator from Kansas did not characterize it too strongly, 

and I desire now to say that I will, unless I change my mind, when this 

bill gets into the Senate move to strike out two ordnance officers and 

let one remain. That gives them all the power that I think they are entitled to, or that this communication shows that they deserve. 

Mr. HALE. I am not the advocate or defender of the Ordnance De- 'partment. I do not even know the officer who it is said prepared this 

document. 

Mr. BECK. I do not know him; I never saw him. 

Mr. HALE. It did not occur to me that there was anything . ecret 

about it, and I do not now think there was. I gave the paper Yery 

readily to the Senator from Maryland, and he had a perfect right to use it precisely as he has used it. It seems to me that in sending it 

t.o the chairman of the Committee on Appropriations, whatever may 

be said of any other mode, the Ordnance Department did the only 

thing it could do if it sought to bring to Congress or to the Senate any 

further views while the measure was pending; that is, to send the com-
0 

1888. CONGRESSIONAL -RECORD-SENATE. 8153 

munication to the chairman of the committee, or to the Senator in ' charge of the bill, in order that the suggestions might go for what they 

were worth. 

Mr . .ALLISON. This communication, · I wish to say, came to me during the morning at my desk here. I called the attention of the 

Senator in charge of the bill to the fact, and he said that he had one of 

those papers. So I allowed the communication to lie on my tablethat communication of the Secretary of War. Of course if I had supposed that it was a matter of importance a.s to the mode of communicating or as to the importance of having these letters read, I should 

have bad them put in the RECORD early in this debate. - Mr. PLUMB. I would like to ask the Senator if he does not think 

that it is time for minor executive officers to advise Congress when 

they are asked for their opinion? Do not the Constitution and the laws 

point out the way in which Congress shall ascertai~ the opinion of the 

executive department, and is it not a little bit strange, I will say impertinent, for any executive officer, and especially for officers of minor 

degree, to be lecturing Congress about extravagance, and complaining 

about the terms of a bill, especially of a bill as to whi~b they were before consulted? . · lt:Ir. ALLISON. In response to the :first suggestion of the Senator 

from Kansas, I will say that I quite agree with him; but it is the ens- tom, grown up in our communication with the Executive Departments, 

which bas existed for a long time. Either the heads of Departments 

trust the chief clerk to come here or even the bead of a bureau sends 

down. For example, this morning the Paymaster-General sent down 

the chief clerk of the Pay Department to make an inquiry of me re- specting the condition of the Army appropriation bill and urging that 

something should be done about it. I do not think these young men are very greatly to blame about it. They are enthusiastic in their views 

and they may not ba,·e a proper regard for what should be done as re- spects the methods of presenting these tB.ings. I must say honestly 

that I did not read the paper which has been referred to; I did not 

look it over. I was entirely satisfied with the report made by the 

Committee on Appropriations. I thought we had made a bill that was a fairly good bill, and I supposed the Senate would agree with it. 

I know, of course, that every Department of this Government deires to hold all the power and control that it can, and I knew perfectly 

well that this arrangement for a board would not be agreeable to the 

Ordnance Bureau. But I had the same understanding respecting it 

that the Senator from Kansas had, that this board was to be a supervising board, .a directing board, and that as their directions were made 

they would be executed in the various bureaus of the War Department 

under the supervision of the Secretary of War. 

.Mr. HAWLEY. And under existing statutes. 

?r!r . .ALLISON. We bad no expectation that we were repealing 

statutes, and therefore I am perfectly willing that_ the amendment ~ug

gested by the Senator from Connecticut shall prevail if it is deemed 

necessary to make it certain that these appropriations shall be ex- pended in detail by these different burearu. That is all there is of 

that. 

Mr. MORGAN. The act giving power to the Chief of Ordnance, and 

which, I believe, is the law under which be now proceeds, was enacted 

in. 1815, in February, at a time when we were in a good deal of military trouble and distresil, and Congress seemed then to have the idea 

of conferring upon this officer, the Chief of Ordnance, very broad and 

arbitrary powers: 

It. shall be the duty of the Chief of Ordnance to furnish estimates and, under 

the direction of the Secretary of 'Var, to make contracts u.nd purchases for 

procuring the necessary supplies of ordnance and ordnance stores for the u~e 

of the armies of the United States; to direct the inspection a.nd proving of the same, and to direct the construction of all cannon and carriages, ammunition wagons, traveling fo1·ge.s, artificer's wagons, and of every implement and appa- ratus for ordnance, and the preparation of all kinds of ammunition and ord- nance stores constructed or prepared tor said service. 

• I do not suppose an officer of the United States Government in a subordinate character ever bad broader powers than these in controlling 

expenditures; but, after all, the Secretary of War is always supposed to 

be a civilian, and be is not expected to ba ve any particular military skill, 

especially in the scientific departments, such as ordnance, and be is 

under the ad vice and largely under the influence, not to say t;_he control, 

of the Chief of Ordnance. It must be so. There is no check standing 

between the Chief of Ordnance and the Secretary of War. The Secretary of War has not, ordinarily at least, the sort of scientific skill that 

would enable him to produce any impression upon the views of the ord- nance officer or to gh·e him any material check in the following up of his 

wishes in regard to the character of ordnance that should be made or purchased, or any of those very broad powers that be is to exercise. 

In later times, when the genius of the .American mechanic ba.s been 

greatly stimulated by.the patent system and also by the improvements 

made in ordnance and arms of every description, there has grown up a 

controversy between almost ever inventor and everj mechanic in the 

United States who ba.s any interest in matters of this kind and the 

Ordnance Department. 

I have bad no connection with any of the committees of this body 

that enables me to trace thoroughly that controversy in its different 

• 

stages, but I know since I have been in the Senate, having been at one time upon the select committee on ordnance and war ships, that ' 

different persons who are engaged in the production of material and arms and such like have been in communication with me more or 

less, and I do not remember a single instance, whether on the part of 

a producer of material or an inventor of arms, or a manufacturer of 

guns or arms, where complaint has not been made or the arbitrary 

powers that were given to t;he Chief of Ordnance and the arbitrary man- ner in which his powers haYe been exercised. It has gone to that extent that complaint, whether just or not, has brought fgrward in a very 

palpable way the question whether the Ordnance Bureau is not a close 

corporation and conducted in the interests only of officials of the .Army. 

That is the que~tion. It does not make any difference to me whether 

that question is properly stated or not by these gentlemen. What I 

know is that there is a strong prevailing opinion among the people of 

the United States, of the classes to which I have just referred, that 

justice is not done by the Ordnance Department, as I said before; that 

it is an arbitrary, dictatorial, unyielding assemblage of men who were disposed to favor their own class and men in military office to the ex- clusion and detriment of other men. 

Now this bill as amended interposes between the Ordnance Office 

and the Secretary of War an advisory board, and I think, Mr. President, that that is a very es ential part of our ordnance system. There 

should be an advisory board standing between the Secretary of War 

and the Ordnance Bureau. That advisory board seems to be well con- stituted. The very able man who is now at the head of the Army ilL 

put at the head of the board, and others are to be detailed, some trom 

the Ordnance and some from the Engineer Corps and some from the 

artillery branch of tb6 Army, and I think there ought to be one civilian in it. In order ro make this exactly right and fair and make it 

sati'3factory to our own people, there ought to be a civilian in this board. 

Then whatever complaints are made, the complainers would have a rep-. resentative upon the board, and Congress would not only be saved a ·great deal of trouble and harassment, but I think the public service 

would be materially benefited. , 

The amendment, a.s I understand it, offered by the Senator from Con- necticut would be merely to throw the whole power that has heen in 

existence since 1815 into the bands of the Chief of Ordnance. I am not 

willing to see it go there. If I believed in him as being the greatest 

ordnance officer in the world and as being a man of immaculate -honorand I have no right to suspect him at all-! would not be willing for 

him to remain in the possession of these extraordinary powers a t this 

stage of our progress and experience, because it is questioned _by a large 

and very respectable class of American mechanics and producers of steel 

and iron and other matters connected with ordnance in this country . I therefore think we should make a great mistake in conducting this 

system as it is; we should not meet public expectation; we should not 

be considered as giving a fair trial to American genius and enterprise 

if we should refuse to support the recommendation of the committee 

in this matter. I therefore hope, Mr. President, that that recommendation will be adopted. 

Mr. H.A WLEY. I suppose, indeed I know, that there has been more· or less of the pr~jndice mentioned by the Senator from .Alabama [Mr. 

.MORGAN] concerning the Ordnance Bureau, but I say to him, what I 

think he will acknowledge on reflection, that the lar~er part of that 

pr~judice is due to this: the Ordnance Department could only listen 

when an inventor came and could only say to him, "We can do nothing for you; we have not one dollar of money to spend upon this ex- periment." He came with a scheme whittled out in wood of a..new gun. 

A gun that has become famous in the world since first came to me 

as a wooden model, which wa.s devised by an ingenious mechanic-! 

refer to the Spencer rifle-a bright Connecticut mechanic· who had no 

money. Suppose be bad brought that wooden model of the Spencer 

rifle to the Ordnance Department? .The ordnance officer might have 

said "I see a bright future for this man, but I have not a dollar provided for this purpose and I can not make a gun for you;" and the man goes away and feels very natq.rally that be bas been snubbed by 

his Government. So be has been snuhbed by his Government, which 

ought to have ~place where such bright men could bring these ideas, 

and there ought to be a little money therewith which they could make 

experiments. It is the Government that is itself at fault in this matter very largely. There ought always to have been a board there of 

three bright men, an engineer, an ordnance officer, etc., especially to 

investigate and inquire concerning all new things. We are to blame; we have brought all the odium upon these men because they have represented their Government in saying ''we can not do anything for you.'' 

I hope the amendment I have proposed, saying that this shall not 

int-erfere with existing law, will be agreed to. The chairman of the 

committee thinks it wise, and I understood the gentleman from Kansas to say that be did not wish to interfere with the existing law. He 

has modified the bill already in many particulars in which it might have 

been llable to the charge of changing existing laws. Unless we suppose 

ourselves to be legislating and entirely wiping out old statutes and 

creating new, as a matter of caution this amendment ought to gl) in • 
1-

. 

8154 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD=-SENATE. AUGUST 31, 

If we are changing existing laws creating this great department of the 

' Government, it had better be done in a separate statute and more deliberately. 

I hope the amendment will be adopted. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question is on the amendment 

of the Senator from Connecticut [Mr. HAWLEY]. 

Mr. GORMAN. ·I ask for a division. 

The question being put, there were on a divjsion-ayes 8, noes 13. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The vote disclosing the absence of 

a quorum, the ~ecretary will call the roll of the Senate. 

The Secretary called the roll. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Thirty-five Senators have answered 

to their names. _ . 

Mr. RIDDLEBERGER. Is it in order to announce here that only 

fourteen of them were Democrats? 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Chair thinks not. 

Mr. RIDDLEBERGER. Then I neYer said it. [Laughter.] 

Mr. CALL entered the Chamber and answered to his name. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Thirty-six Senators have answered 

to their names. 

Mr. TELLER entered the Chamber and responded to his name. 

Mr. BROWN entered tb.e Chamber and responded to his name. 

Mr. DOLPH. As there appears to be but a small prospect of getting a quorum, I move that the Senate adjourn. 

~fr. ALLISON. I hope the Senator will not press that motion. I 

think in a few moments we shall be able to get a quorum. It is rather 

important that this bill shonld pass to-day, as we have already.agreed 

to adjourn over to-morrow. _ 

Mr. DOLPH. I withdraw the motion. 

Mr. ALLISON. We shall have a quorum in a few minutes. 

Mr. CULLOM. I desire to state that the Senator from Vermont 

[Mr. EDMUNDS] is detained at his home to-day on account ofindisposition. 

Mr. ALLISON. I think I ought to say respecting my colleague 

[Mr. WILSON, of Iowa] that he was not feeling very well, and supposing there would be no important matter this afternoon, he left the 

Chamber half an hour ago and returned to his lodgings. 

Mr. FAULKNER entered the Chamber and answered to his name, 

completing the n'umber necessary to constitute a quorum. 

The following Senators answered to their names: · 

Allison, Cullom, Ingalls, Reagan, 

Bate, Dolph, .Tones of Arkansas, Riddleberger, 

Beck, Faulkner, Mitchell, Sawyer, 

Berry, George, Morgan, Sherman, 

Blair, Gorman, Palmer, Stewart, 

Brown, Hale, Pasco, Stockbridge, 

Oall, Hampton, Platt, Teller, 

Cockrell, Hawley, Plumb, Turpie, 

Co k.e, Hiscock, Pugh. Walthall. 

Colquitt, Hoar, Ransom, 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Thirty-nine Senators having answered to their names, further proceedings under the roll-call will be 

dispensed with if there be no objection, and the Chair will again submit the question on the amendment of the Senator from Connecticut 

(:l\Ir. HAWLEY]. 

The amendment was rejected. 

Tlie bill was reported to the Senate as amended, and the amendments made as in Committee of the Whole were concurred in. 

The amendments were ordered to be engrossed, and the bill to be 

read a third time. 

The bill was read the third time, and passed. 

Mr. PLUUB. I move that the Senate insistonitsamendments,and 

ask for a conference with the House of Representatives thereon. 

The PRE.:3IDENT pro tempore. The Senator from Kansas moves 

that the Senate insist on its amendments, and ask for a conference. 

The motion was agreed to. . By unanimous consent the P;resident pro tempore was authorized to 

appoint the conferees on the part of the Senate, and Mr. DAWES, Mr. 

PLIDIB, and .Mr. GOR]IAN were appointed. 

ALLOTMENT TO UMATILLA INDIANS. 

Mr. MITCHELL introduced a bill (S. 3506) to amend an act entitled "An act providing for allotment oflands in severalty to the Indians residing upon the Umatilla reservation, in the State of Oregon, 

and granting patents therefon, and for other purposes;" which was 

read twice by its title. 

Mr. MITCHELL. I introduce this bill at the request of the .Ai3-

sistant Secretary of the Interior, and I hold in my hand a communication stating the reasons why the bill should become a law, and I ask 

that it be incorporated in the RECORD. It is very short. I ask that 

the bill be referred to the Committee on Indian Affairs, and also the 

communication. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. If there be no objection, that order 

will be made. 

The letter is as follows: 

DEPAR~NT OF THE ll.'TERIOR, Washington, August 24,1888. 

Sm: Referring to our conYersation of this date regarding the Umatilla. Indian reservation, and complying with your verbal request for a statement of the 

proceedings so far had by the Department under the law of March 3, 1885 {23 

Stat .. , 341), which provides for the allotment of lands in severalty to the Indians upon that reservation and the granting of patents therefor and for other pm-. poses, and, in order to do this, providing for a commission to ascertain the 

number of Indians on the reservation entitled to lands in severalty, the amount of land required to make the allotments, and the selection of so much of the 

lands in said reservation as will supply agricultural lands for allotments in 

severalty, together with sufficient pasture and timber lands for their me, and 640 acres for an industrial school farm, such tract so selected not to exceed "120,000 

acres.in the aggregate for all pmposes," I have the honor to state that under 

and in pursuance or this law a commission was organized in the latter part of 

1886, which proceeded to the reservation, secured the consent of the Indians to the provisions of the law, took the required censns of the Indians, and selected a. tract for a diminished r e-servation, containing in the aggregate ll9,35-i acres, of which, according to the cen us of the Indians on the reservation, 74,800 acres were required ff'r allotment to the Indians for agricultural purposes. The whole of the existmg reservation was ordered to be surveyed for the pur- poses of the law, the agricultural lands selected for allotment to the Indians 

being subdivided as required therefor. T his survey developed the fact that the 

diminished reservation as thus selected contained about 10,000 acres less of lands 

suitable for agricultural purposes than was required to make allotments to the 

IndiJlns as provided in the law. It therefore became necessary to appoint a second commission to readjust the boundaries of the diminished reservation so as to bring within their limiti a sufficient quantity of agricultural land to meet the requirements of the law. · This second commission has made its report, which is now pending before the 

Department, and the diminished reser>ation selected by them, and as defined 

and described in their report and outlined upon the map which accompanies it, 

shows a tract of land selected for the reservation so irregular in its ehape and 

outline as would make it difficult for the Indians on the reservation or the white persons occupying lands adjoining it on the outside to I..'Llow certainly and ex- actly the location of the boundaries of the reservation. This irregular outline 

of the boundaries of the reservation, running in a. zi&"zag course, following the 

lines dividing townships, sections, and quarter-sections, including pa.rts of sec- tions and excluding other varts thereof, is reported by the commission to have 

been necessary in order to secure within its limits a sufticient quantity of ag- ricu!Lural lands for the purpose of allotment to the Indians1 with a reasonable 

quantity of pasture and timber land for their purposes; and lD doing this it was not found possible to locate the pasture and timber land as conveniently as might 

have been done had not the law restricted the diminished reservation to the 

limits of120,000 acres. The commission no doubt selected lands of the several kinds required by the 

law and for the purposes thereof in the most regular and eonyenient shape found to be possible by them under the restrictions and limitations pre cribed. They, however, state in their report that they were noL able to include as much timber 

land as they thought necessary within the reservation. And they further slate 

that "while the Indians are some better satisfied with the present reservation than 

they were with the reservation fixed by the former commission, there is con- sidernble dissatisfaction. They desired that all of the mountain lands in town- ship 2 north, 35 east, :md 2 north, 35 east, as far 3.8 what is known na 'Meacham 

Creek,' as well as the timber land in township 1 north, 35 east, and 1 north, 3-1 east, remain in the reservation, claiming that this had been promised them when 

the treaty was made. But as no agricultural land lies in these regionl'l, it would 

have l>een impossible to have arranged the lines to embrace these land and the 

diminished reservation contain at the same time a sufticiency of agricultural 

lands for the purposes of the allotment. In order to have included these lands 

the diminished reservation would have had to contain at least50,000acres more than the 120,000 acres to which the act of Congress limits it." In view of the Yery irregular, undesirable, and unsatisfactory shape of t.h~ 

tract of land which has been reported to the Department by the commission ap- pointed under the law for the purpose as the diminished reservation, and the reported dissatisfaction of the Indians in the matter, as above st&ted, I ha,-e he i- tated to adopt the report and approve the tract selected as the diminished r e er- vation for the Indians. Notwithstanding they have consented to the provisiot1!i 

of the law and to take their lands in severalty, I thick their wishes to have the 

land designated by them on the east embraced in the reserYaLion should bu 

respected; aud for this purpose I would suggest that the act of M:uch 3, 1855. be so amended as to authorize the Department to select, prescribe and defi ne a. reservation containing a sufficient quantity of land for the needs of the In- dians and in such regular ehape in outline as that it,s boundaries may be cer- tainly known. This can be done very speedily and I think accurately and sat- isfactorily upon the results of investi~tions already n1ade and reported upon by the commissions appointed under the act of March 3, 1835. 

I submit herewith a draught of a proposed act to meet the suggestio us above 

made. 

Very respectfully, 

Ron . .JoHN H. MITcHELL, 

United Scates Senate. 

H. L. MULDROW, 

Acting Secretary. 

AMENDMENTS TO BILLS. 

Mr. SHERMAN submitted an amendment intended to be proposed 

by him to the general deficiency appropriation bill; which was referred 

to the Committee on Appropriations, and ordered to be printed. 

1\fr. STOCKBRIDGE submitted an amendment intended to be pr~­

posed by him to the general deficiency appropriation bill; which was 

ordered to be printed, and, with the accompanying papers, referred to 

the Committee on Post-Offices and Post-Roads. 

DISTRICT TELEGRAPH AND TELEPHO:NE SERVICE. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore laid before the Senate the follo ing 

communication from the commissioners of the District of Columbia; 

which was read: 

0Fll'ICE 011' COMMISSIONEitS 011' DISTRICT Oli' COLlJMlliA, 

Washington, August 30,1883. 

Sm: In compliance with the resolution of the Senate dated the 29th instant, the commissioners herewith transmit the annual report of Henry H . l\Iiles, su- perintendent of the telegraph andcelephone service for tho year ended June 30,1888. 

Very respectfully, 

Hon . .JOHN .J. INGALLS, 

W.B.WEBB, 

President Board of Commissioners. 

President pro tempore of the United States Senate. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The communication 'ivilllie on the 

table and be printed. 

Mr. RIDDLEBERGER. Shonld not the report of the--commissioners go properly to the Committee on the District of Columbia? 

. 

·' 
1888. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD=SENATEo .· 8155 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Senator can move a reference to 

that committee. 

:Mr. RIDDLEBERGER. I never understood before that the commissioners of the District of Columbia. had a right to commurucate directly with the Senate. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempol'e. They were called upon by resolution 

for that purpose. 

Mr. RIDDLEBERGER. I did not know it; I beg pardon, but I 

think that the communication ought to go to the Committee on the District of Columbia. 

The PRE IDfu~T pro tempore. It will be so referred, if the Senator 

moves it. Does the Senator from Virginia mo;e its reference to the 

Committee on the District of Columbia? 

Mr. RIDDLEBERGER. I do. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. It will be so ordered, ·if there be no 

objection, and printed. 

ENROLLED BILL SIGNED. 

.A message from the House of Representatives, by Mr. NEILL S. 

BROWN, one of its clerks, announced that the Speaker of the House 

had signed the enrolled joint resolution (H. Res. 219) to continue ~he 

provisions of a joint resolution entitled a "Joint resolution to proVIde 

temporarily for the ex}X'lnditures of the Go;ernmen t;'' and it was thereupon signed by the President pro tempore. 

ADMISSION OF WASHINGTON". 

The PRESID~T pro tempore. The Senate, as in Committee of the 

Whole, resumes the consideration of the unfinished business, being the 

bill (S. 12) to provide for the formation and admis:;ion into the Union 

of the State of Washington, and for other purposes. 

:Mr. PLATT. I hope we shall go on with that bill. 

Mr. PLUUB. I wish to move that the Senate proceed to the consideration of a joint resolution on the Calendar, reported from the Committee on Public Lands. It is Order of Business 2006~ 

Mr. STEW .A.RT. The regular order has been displaced so frequently 

that we feel constrained to insist upon it, unless w.e can have a unanimous agreement that it be taken up on :Monday immediately after 

the morning busines~ and disposed of. If we can have unanimous consent to take it up after the morning business on Monday, then there 

will be a full Senate and we can dispose of it. It has hung so long that 

it ought tO be disposed of. 

Mr. PL UUB. The measure I have spoken of is a House joint reso- lution, wl.ich will not take any time nor occasion debate. 

Mr. STEW .ART. Let us h.·we the agreement I have asked for by 

unanimous consent. 

Mr. PLUMB. It is important for some reasons that there should be 

action upon the joint resolution immediately. 

Mr. STEW .A.RT. I ask unanimous consent that immediately after 

the morning business on Monday the regular order be taken up and 

disposed of. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. The Senator from Nevada asks unanimous consent that on Monday at the close of the formal morning business the Senate proceed to the consideration of the unfinished business, 

being the bill (S. 12) to provide for the formation and admission into 

the Union of the State of Washington, and for other purposes. 

Mr. JONES, of Arkansas. I should like to ask the Senator from N evada. if he will not be willing to modify his motion to take the bill up 

a.t the conclusion of the morning hour so as to allow the Calendar to be 

considered. It is Jtow about two weeks since we have considered the 

Calendar, and it is import..'Ult that something should be done with it. 

Mr. STEW ART. Very well; I will say at the close of the morning 

hour. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. It will be the orQ.er at that time. 

Mr. STEW ART. But I want to have unanimous consent that it 

shall not be lnid aside until disposed of, because I do not want to be 

resisting requests to lay it aside. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. TheSenatordesiresconsent that the 

bill shall be proceeded with until it is concluded. 

Mr. STEWART. Yes, without interruption. 

.Mr. P .A.SCO. I gave notice this morning that I should ask to call 

up the resolution of the Senator from New Hampshire [Mr. CHANDu;n.] ~n reference to the Louisiana election. I gave way to· the fortifications bill, which has consumed the day; but I should like to have an understanding that I may have an opportunity to submit the remarks I gave notice of either on Monday or Tuesday morning. If it 

is the desire of the Senate to take up the Calendar or go on with the 

regular order on Monday, I will give way until Tuesday. I should 

like, however, to have it understood that I am to have the floor on 

Tuesday morning. I hope whatever the Senator from Nevada may 

desire that he will t..1.ke into consideration my wishes in this matter. 

Mr. STEW A.RT. The Senator Will see the propriety of disposing of 

the bill for the admission of Washington. We have had it pending as 

the unfinished business for a long time, ~d it is in the way of other 

business. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Chair understands the request 

to be now for unanimous consent that at the conclusion of the morning hour, to wit, at 2 o'clock, on Monday the Senate proceed to the 

conside1·ation of Senate bill No. 12--

Mr. RIDDLEBERGER. I object. 

The PRESIDE....~T pro tempore. The Senator will permit the Chair 

to state--

.Mr. RIDDLEBERGER. I object. The Senate in its concluding 

hours does not belong to any two or three Senators. There are a number of Senators here who have responsibilities resting npon them, and 

I object. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Senator will permit the Chair 

to state the request. The Senator from Nevada [Mr. STEW ART] asks 

unanimous consent that at the conclusion of the mOTning hour on 

Uouday the Senate proceed to the consideration of Senate bill No. 12 

and continue the same until it shall be concluded. Is there objection? 

Mr. RIDDLEBERGER. I object to anythin~ having precedence. 

Mr. STEW .A.RT. I will then give notice tb.a.t after the morning 

hour on Monday I shall in i t upon the regular•order and it shall not 

be laid aside without a yea-and-nay vote. I shall insist upon it until 

it is concluded. I hope no Senator will consider me discourteous if I 

refn c to yield for anything, for I shall not. 

KANSAS AGRICULTURAL-COLLEGE LANDS. 

1\Ir. PLUMB. I trust the joint resolution to which I referred may 

now be considered. 

ThePRESID:E:NT pro tempore. Senate bill No. 12, the unfinished 

business, being now before the Senate, the Senator from Kansas [Mr. 

PLUMB] asks unanimous consent that the Senate may proceed to the 

consideration of a joint resolution the title of which will be stated. 

The CHIEF CLERK. A joint resolution (H. Res. 14) to authorize 

the Secretary of the Interior to certify lands to the State of Kansas for 

the benefit of agriculture and the mechanic arts. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempo1·e. Is there objection? 

1.fr. RIDDLEBERGER. I do not want to object to the passage of 

any bill here that will be of benefit to any people in any State, but if 

it is a mere matter of RECORD speeches, I do most certainly object. 

Mr. PLUMB. It is a matter which it is important should be acted 

upon. 

.M:r. RIDDLEBERGER. Very well; then I sh..ill. not object. 

There being no objection, the joint resolution (H. Res. 14) to authorize the Secretacy of the Interior to certify lands to the State of Kansas for the benefit of agriculture and the mechanic arts was considered 

as in Committee of the Whole. 

The joint resolution was reported to the Senate without amendment, 

ordered to a third readmg, read the third time, and passed. 

The preamble was agreed to. 

OWNERS OF PRIVATE DIES. 

Mr. HOAR. I ask the Senate to proceed to the consideration of Order of Business 1590, Senate bill 953. 

By unanimous consent, the bill (S. 953) to authorize the Secretary of 

the Treasury and the proper accounting offi~rs to restate, settle, and 

pay to the owners of private dies the balance of commissions due them 

was considered as in Committee of the Whole. It directs the Secretary 

of the Treasury and the proper accounting officers to restate the accounts 

and settle and pay the balance of commissions due to the owners of private dies, or to their legal representatives, as provided in section 3425 

of the Revised Statutes, on the full amount of stamps purchased, face 

\alue, without distinction as to the time when such purchases were made. 

Three hundred and fifty-five thousand dollars, or so much thereof as may be necessary, is appropriate~} for payment. 

Ur. ALLISON. I hope the Senator from :Massachusetts will explain 

that bill somewhat. 

Mr. HOAR. There is a report, but I can explain it in a moment. 

The private dies which were used by the Treasury, as appears in the 

report presented by the Senator from Wisconsin [Mr. SPOOYER] were 

used under a certain provision of law, fixing the amount of commission 

which should be paid. The Secretary of the Treasury settled the claim 

upon his theory of the amount of commLc;;sion. The owners of the dies 

claimed that they were entitled to a somewhat larger sum, and by an 

agreement with the Treasury Department, one of the cases was taken 

to the Supreme Court of the United States as a test case, and the Supreme Court decided- the case was carried up twice on some new point 

which was raised-that these people were entitled to their claim; and a communication was sent in by SecretaryFolgeraskingthat the claim 

be paid. Since then a communication has been sent in by the present 

Secretary of the Treasury. The Secretaries of the Treasury under.two 

administrations have affirmed the validity of the claim. The bill authorizes the Secretary of the Treasury to audit and settle it. 

Mr. ALLISON. I noticed from the readin~ of the bill that it; provides for a settlement without reference to the time when these claims 

were :filed. I may have made a mistake in that regard. I hope that 

the bill will be read again. 

Mr. HOAR. They were all due and filed when the service was ren- dered, and it was agreed by all the claimants and by the Department 

that one test case should he taken to the Supreme Court of the United 

States. 
. I 

8156 ·. CONGR.ESSIONAL RECORD-. SENATE. AUGUST 31, 

Mr. ALLISON. I should like to hear the bill read. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempo1·e. The bill will be again read. 

The Chief Clerk read the bill. 

1\Ir. PLATT. I should like to hear the report read. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The report will be read. 

The Chief Clerk read the following report, submitted by Mr. SPOONER 

June 13, 1888: 

The Committee on Claims, to whom was referred the bill (S. 953) authorizing the Secretary of the Treasury and the proper accounting officers to restate, 

settle, and pay to the owners of private dies the balance of commissions due them, respectfully submit the following report: . A similar bill has been reported from the Committee on Claims of the House of Representatives at this session. The report, which is adopt-ed by this com- mittee, is as follows: Prior to the year 1883 the Treasury Department withheld, from certain per- sons who furnished their own private dies for printing revenue stamps, a part of the commissions allowed by law. The Supreme Court of the United States had twice decided that the commissions so withheld were illegally withheld, first on appeal from a judgment rendered by the Court of Claims dismissing a pet.ition on demurrer, and.again on appeal from a judgment on the merits, in the same case. After the first decision was made the Secretary of the Treasury recommended to Congress the enactment of a. statute providing for the payment of the com- missions withheld, and transmitted to tne House of Representatives a draught of such·a measure. But at the request of the Assistant Attorney-General, who had concluded to try the same case up_on a. traverse of the petition, he subse- quently suspended his recommendation to await the result of the second trial. The second trial having resulted in a second judgment by the Supreme Court declaring the commission!< to have been illegally withheld, the Secretary of the TreSU~ury and the Commissioner of Internal .Revenue have both officially indi- cated their approval of legislation to authorize the payment of commissions so withheld. 

"This case, then, is exceptional in character. It is not the case of an ordinary claim against the United States. The Supreme Court having pronounced the withholding of the commissions illegal, the Treasury Department, which with- held the commissions, finds itself without the means to refund them. There is no appropriation available for the purpose; and besides, the commissions hav- ing been withheld by [the] predecessors of the present incumbents of the Trea.~­

ury offices, the account can not now be reopened, under the rufes of the Department, without authority of law. The Treasury Department therefore approves the euactmen t of a law to provide the means for the payment of the commis- sions. "The question presented is not whether Congress shall empower the Treas- ury Department to investigate and settle an ordinary claim against the United States, but whether Congress will adopt the recommendation by the Treasury 

Department of such legislation as shall enable that Department to pay specific commissions which have been unlawfully withheld, which commissions that De- partment finds itself unable to pay for want of the necessary appropriation, and l>y reason of the Department rule which interdicts theopewng of old accounts by new officers.'' The following is a statement in detail of the facts of the case. The internal- revenue acts allowed a commission of 10 per cent. in certain cases in favor of p ersons who furnished their own dies and purchased "at one time" stamps to the amount of" over $500" (Revised Statutes, section 3425). But the internal- revenue officers, adopting an erroneous interpretation of these statut-es, allowed and paid such commissions in stamps, which WM equivalent to 9 per cent. only in such cases. One per cent. of the commission allowed was tbus withheld, in violation of the provisions of the statutes. The pretext for this illegal action was that the commission of 10 per cent. which the statutes allowed-on the p ur- cha.~e of stamps was payable, not in money by abatement from the face Talue of the stamps purchased, Qut iu stamps at their face value. · The first decision of the Supreme Court disapproving of this construction of the statutes was made near the close of the term which commenced in October, 

1881, in the case of Swift Company vs. The United States (l<X> United States, 691). Soon after this judgment of the Supreme Court WM rendered the Secretary of the Treasury sent to the chairman of the Committee on Appropriations of the House of Representatives the following communication: 

"TREASURY DEP ARTIIIENT, June 8, 1882. 

"SIR: I have the honor to inclose herewith the draught of a. bill prepared by the Commissioner of Internal Revenue, authorizing the refunding of money to parties who have overpaid for their private die stamps, by reason of the former mode of computing and allowing their commission on purchase of said stamp, under section 34!!5 of the Revised Statutes, which mode, though in force about twenty years, has recently been decided by the Supreme Court of the TTnited States to be erroneous as you will see by the inclosed copy of the opinion of the court in the case of the Swift & Courtney & Beecher Company, appellants, vs. The United States. The Commissioner has changed the mode of computing and allowing such commissions in conformity with this decision, and it would seem to be just that the amounts which have been overpaid should be refunded, as proposed by the Commissioner. If th~ inclosed bill meets the approbation of the committee, I would respectfully suggest that it be incorporated in some ap- propriation bill, or other appropriate bill, now pending, to insure its passage at the present session. ' " Very respectfully, "CHAS. J. FOLGER, Secretary. "Hon. FRANK HiscoCK, "Chairman Committee on Appropriatio-ns, House of Representatives." 

The following is the ·draught which was inclosed in the foregoing communi~ cation of t.he Secretary of the 'I'reasury: •• The Commissioner of Internal Revenue is hereby authorized, upon proof 

satisfactory to him, to refund, out of any moneys in the Treasury not other- wise appropriated, and pay back to those proprietors of articles named in Sched- ule C of the internal-revenue acts approved July 1, 1862; Schedule C of the in- ternal-revenue act approved June 30, 1864., and Schedule .A., following section 3437 -of the Revised Statutes of the United States, or in either of them, or in any amendment thereof, who furnished their own die or designs for internal-reve- . nue stamps to be used especially for their own proprietary articles, all moneys received from such proprietors for such stamps imprinted from such dies or de- signs, which under a misconstruction of the statutes relating to discounts and commissim~s were in excess of the amount required therefor by law. But no claim for the refunding of such moneys shall be allowed by said Commissioner unless the same shall have been nresented to him within one year next after the passag-e of this act." - The Assistant Attorney-General decided to traverse the petition in the Court of Claims, and to try the cause upon its merits. At his request the Secretary of the TreW~ury suspended the recommendation which he made in the foregoing communication until the ascertainment of the result of this second trial. After the second trial the case went again to the Supreme Court upon appeal, and in 1884 that court again disapproved the construction of the statutes which had been adopted by the revenue officers, and again held that 1 per cent. of the commissions allowed by law had been ille.ga.lly withheld. This case is Swift Com· pany vs. United States (Ul U. S., 22). • · Since the rendition of the last judgment. of the Supreme Court the Secretary of the Treasury hSU! transmitted to the chairman of the Committee on Claims of the House of ·Repre.;entatives the following communication: 

. "TREASURY DEP ARTlllENT, jfarch 23, 1886. 

''Sm: In replytoyourletterofthe 19th instant in r egard to the bill (H. R.Z.U) to authorize payment of ba~ance of commissions due to owners of private dies, I have the honor to say that the records of th\s Department disclose nothing which is not fully set forth in the documents inclosed by you (herewith returned) and in the two decisions of the Supreme Court of the United States {105 U.S. R., 

691, and 111 U.S. R.,l02). Accepting these decisions, I concur in the expression of the Commissioner of Internal Revenue (whos e letter to me of the 22d'instant is inclosed) that I see no objection to the passage of the bill. "Respectfully, yours, 

"Hon. WILLIAM M. SPRINGER, "C. S. FAIRCHILD, Acting Secretary, 

"C!wirman Committee on Claims, House of llept·esenlatives." 

In the foregoing communication of the Secretary of the Treasury was inclosed the following letter from the Commissioner of Internal Revenue: 

"TREASURY DEPARTJ\IENT, OFFICE OF INTERNAL REVENUE, 

" fVashington, March 22, 1886. 

"SIR: Referring to letter of Hon. WILLI.AM 1\I. SPRINGER, chairman of the Com- mittee on Claims, House of Representatives, inclosing bill and other papers rel- ative to claim of private die owners for the refur;.d to them of certain commis- sions withheld by this office, which were referred, under date of the 20th in- stant, by Assistant Secretary Fairchild, with the request that I return the papers with report. as to whether I would recommend the passage of th bill, I have to state that the records of this office show that certain commissions were with· held from owners of private dies for stamps purchased by them in excess of the amount which the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of the Swift & Courtney & Beecher Company decided should be allowed, and I know of no reason why the parties having such claims should not be reimbursed the amount thus withheld. I therefore see no objection to the pa-ssage of the bill. The papers fu the case are herewith returned. "I have the honor to be, very respectfully, 

"Hon. DANIEL MANNING, , '' Secretary of the Treasury.'' 

"H. C. ROGERS, 

"Acting Commissioner. 

On the 21st day of February, 1888, the Acting Commissioner of Internal Rev- enue transmitted to the committee the following communication: 

"TREASURY DEPA.RTliiENr, OFFICE OF INTERNAL REVENUE, 

" Washington, February 21, lSSS. 

"SIR: I haTe the honor to acknowledge the recei pt of your letter of the 16th instant, in'' hich you ask that the Committee on Claims be furnished with an estimate of the amount that would be required to pa.y claims under the pro- visions of bill inclosed (H. R. 1268), 'to authorize tue Secretary of· the Treasury and the proper accounting officers to restate, settle, and pay to the owners of_ private dies the balance of commissions due them.' ''You also ask for a statement of any facts in possession of this office touching the cause of the withholding of the commissions in the bill mentioned from the different claimants for the same, and state that any suggestion I may be pleased to make concerning the propriety of the proposed legislation will be duly ap- preciated. 

"In reply I stat-e that the section 3425, Revised Statutes, provided for certain commissions to l>e paid to owners of private dies on purchase of stamps from their dies, as follows: "On amounts purchMed at one time of not less than $50 nor more than $500, 5 per cent.; and on amounts over $500, 10 per cent. on the whole amount pur- chased. 

"This office held that the commissions above referred t{) were payable in stamps, and they were so paid until the Supreme Court of the United :=;tates, in the case of the Swift and Courtney and Beecher Company, decided that the same should be allowed in money, and not in stamps. "The face value of stamps issued to owners of private dies up to J.:[ay, 1882, was $56,650,000. 

On which there was collected ........................ .............................. ........ $<>!., 500,0CO The amount which should have been collected under the decision of the Supreme Court is...................................................... .................. 50,985,000 

Excess collected............................ ............................................. 515, 000 

''It is believed that judgments have been rendered in the Court of Claims in favor of a number of claimants for reimbursement of amounts paid in excess, and that some of the judgments have been paid; the amount outstanding, therefore, and for which an appropriation will be necessary in caae of the pa"'sage of the bill, would be $515,000, less the amount paid on account of such judg· ments. 

"This office has no record of the amount paid. The Supreme Court of tb.e United States, in the case of the Swift and Courtney and Beecher Company, be- fore referred t{), decided that the amount withheld by this office should be al- lowed. 

"It would seem to be equitable and just that the amount withheld from others on account of such commission should also be allowed. "I see no objection to the passage of the bill, 

".Respectfully, 

"Hon. FRANK T. SHAW, 

"E. HENDERSON, 

"Acting Commissioner. 

"Member of the Committee on Claims, · "House of Representatives, Washington, D. C." 

The amount required to pay these claims is $350,142.59, as·follows: 

Excess collected by the Government, as shown by the Acting Com- missioner's lett~r of February 21, 1888 .................. ........................... $515, 000. 00 Less amount paid on judgments of the Court of Claims.............. ......... 154, 857.41 

Amount still due..................................................................... 35::>, 142. 59 

The rea...«<>n why these claims have not all been paid at the Treasury, since the final decision of the Supreme Court, is that, under the practice of the Treasury 

Department, the Comptroller can not, under the practice of the Department, allow an account which has been settled byaformerComptroller,evenafteradecision by the Supreme Co .. rt that such settlement was legaL On the 27th of October,l8S5, the .:t'irst Comptroller of the Treasury, in an official letter to the Commissioner of Internal Revenue, relatilig to a stamp account which had been presented for settlement, said: "It appears from the records in this office that three of my predecessors have passed upon simi.lar accounts, and one of them, Mr. Tayler, has passed upon the account of Swift and Courtney. 

"Although the Supreme Oourt of the United Stat-es hM decided that his state• ment was incorrect, as well as the statements of other Comptrollers on simila.:r 
1888. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. \ 8157 

account.s, yet I am bound by their decisions. Should, however, a new case, in- Tolving t.be same principle, be presented, I should follow the opinion of the Sup,reme Court. · ' I have heretofore held in a number of cases that the decision of a question or the statement of an account by any one of my predecessors, when he had jurisdiction on the subject-matter, could not be reopened or restated, unless some mistake had been made by him in matters of fact arising from errors in calculation, or in cases of rejected clalms·materia.l testimony is afterwards dis- caTered and produced. No mistake in matters or fact arising from errors in calculation having been made by my predecessors in these accounts, or material testimony having qeen discovered or produced since their decisions, I can not reopen the same because of an error of judgment in regard to the law of the case, or their construction of the statutes." • The reason why the claimants have not all sued the United States in the Court of Claims is, that under the arrangement between the claimants and the Commissioner of Internal Revenue then in office, the case of the Swift and Courtney and Beecher Company was made a test case, and the others were to abide the result. But"that case was pending six years, and when it was finally decided the new Commissioner declined to carry out the arrangements of his predecessor, and the statute of limitations then barred these cases in the Court of Claims. Section 3425, Revised Statutes, provides tha~ · "The proprietor of articles named in Schedule A, who furnished his own die or design for stamps to be used especially for his own proprietary articles, shall be allowed the following commissions: On amounts purchased at one time of not less than $50 nor more than $500, 5 per cent., and on amountsover$500, lOper cent. on the whole amount purchased." , The Supreme Court of the United States decided unanimously that the money asked for by this bill was wrongfully taken from the owners of private dies. Three Secretaries of the Treasury. three Commissioners of Internal Revenue, and the present First Comptroller of the Treasury have all signified their ap- proval of some measure that will enable the accounting officers of the Treasury to return this money to its legitimate owners. H. R. bill No. 1268 was drawn up at the Treasury, and meet.a the approval of the accounting officers, and your committee, having examined into the matter very carefully, after taking into consideration the amount involved, have unanimously decided to report back the bill and recommend its passage. 

Mr. ALLISON. As I remember the matter, this money can not be 

paid to these people without some direct action of Congress because of 

what is understood to be the statute of limitations. I think that this 

is a case where if any statute of limitation~ exists, whether by rule of 

the Department or by law, it ought to be enforced rigidly. 

Mr. HOAR. Will the Senator allow me to make a statement before 

he nroceeds? 

Mr. ALLISON. I only want to say a few words. 

Mr. HOAR. I merely wish to call the Senator's attention to the fact 

found in a portion of the report that there was an agreement between 

the Treasury Department and these claimants that one case should be 

made a test case and the others abide by it. Thereupon one case was made a test case. Indeed, two cases went to the Supreme Court. Then, 

when it came back with the decision of the Supreme Court, the Department found itself unable to pay without authority of law, and sent a communication to Congress recommending the payment. That recom- mendation was not acted upon in Mr. Folger's time. It is now re- newed by Mr . .Fairchild. Does the Senator think that in such a case a statute of limitations should be insisted upon, and that the Government should refuse to meet the agreement? · Mr. ALLISON. I fail to find in this report any statement of an absolute agreement. 

Mr. HOAR. You will find it near the end of the report. 

Mr. ALLISON. This depends on a statute passed at the time of the 

passage of the internal-revenue laws in 1863. It provided that where a person manufacturing any of the articles mentioned in section 3425 

of the Revised Statutes should furnish his own dies upon which the 

-stamps should be printed, he might purchase any amount of stamps 

between $50 and $500, and he should have a rebate of 5 percent.; and 

if he purchased in excess of $500 he should have a rebate of 10 per 

cent. 

That was an improvident statute. It was a statute which enabled 

what for years was known as the match monopoly to exist; and it did 

exist for many years, because no small match manufacturer could afford 

to go in and purchase $500 worth of stamps. Thus the match business was thrown into the hands of a few people who secured a monopoly of 

the manufacture of matches; and although there was a 2-cent stamp 

upon each match-box the manufacturers purchased the stamps in $10,-

000 and $20,000 lots and received a rebate of 10 per cent. The Commissioner of Internal Revenue gave that rebate in the form of stamps 

instead of money. · That process went on for a great number of years. I had occasion 

to examine this matter for myself three or four years ago, and I only 

state it now from recollection. The process went on for many years 

with the absolute assent of the manufacturers, they receiving the 

stamps in that form. But at some time away on, after the law had 

been in force for ten or twenty years, somebody suddenly discovered 

that there was an opportunity to make 1 per cent., and then the case of which the Senator from Massachusetts speaks was taken to the Supreme Court .of the United States and decided against the Government. 

I see by the report that st.amps were issued to the exent of $50,000,-

000 for these proprietary articles, and they had a rebate of 10 per 

cent., which was equivalent to $5,000,000 to the manufacturers. I am 

willing myself to pay to them whatever the law says W.fl shall pay, 

but I do not believe that they stand here in a position to ask the Government for equity. There is no equity in their favor, and therefore 

unless the law gives them the money, I do not believe the Government 

()fthe United States isoound to give it to them. 

Mr. BROWN. The stamps were 1 per cent. below par? 

Mr. MORGAN. Will the Senator allow me to make an inquiry? 

I wish to know of the Senator how it was that these parties, having 

accepted a commodity in satisfaction of a debtr--this rebate, of course. wasadebt- · Mr. HOAR. They never accepted it without a protest. 

Mr. MORGAN. I ask how it was that the stamps were not at par. 

Mr. ALLISON. I do not now rememberpreciselyhowit was. This 

1 per cent. was a very delicate operation. 

Mr. MORGAN. For instance, if they a~cepted $10,000 worth of 

stamps in payment of the commission,· a.s it is called, why were not 

those stamps worth $10,000 ? 

Mr. ALLISON. They were worth it in the currency of the country 

all the time. ' 

Mr. MORGAN. The question, then, is whether we are to pay for 

the depreciation of currency. Is that it? 

Mr. ALLISON. No, sir; no such question as thatisinvolved here. 

I have not the decision before me, and I have not now in mind the 

facts; but after this process had gone on for a long time somebody dis4 

covered that this Commissioner of Internal Revenue had not properly 

construed the law, and then a test question was raised. The law was :tepeaied some years ago. I believe it was only 1·epealed when we re- pealed the match tax. Senators will remember when that was done. 

Mr. HARRIS. In 1883. 

Mr. ALLISON. That was done in 1883 . • ·It was under thatfaw that 

these match manufacturers were enabled to do what we all know they 

did do. The stamps were put on. Of course the consumers paid the 

amount of the tax. It was added, of course, to the price of the matches 

in those cases and in other cases. If under the decision of the Supreme Court we are bound in law to 

pay this sum, of course I shall want to pay it; but if it is necessary to 

pass a statute in order to put them . upon some ground whereby they can make this collection, I am opposed to it. 

Mr. PLATT. May I ask a question? I think the Senator from 

Iowa will be able to answer it. I should like to know whether this was the situation: that any person who purchased stamps to a certain 

amount got 1 per cent. discount. 

Mr. ALLISON. At one time they got 5 per cent. on amounts purchased of not less than $50 nor more than $500, and on amounts over $500, 10 per cent. on the whole amount purchased. 

Mr. PLATT. That was where they furnished the dies. 

Mr. ALLISON. Then there was another provision, which allowed 

the Commissioner from time to time to "deliver to any manufacturer 

of friction or other matches, cigar lights, or wax-tapers a suitable quantity of adhesive or other stamps, such as may be prescribed for use in 

such cases, without prepayment therefor, on a credit not exceeding 

sixty days, requiring in advance such security as he may judge nec- essary to secure payment therefortotheTreasurer of the United States 

within the time prescribed for such payment." 

M:r. PLATT. Why is it that the Supreme Court held that when these 

parties were paid in stamps it was not a full payment? 

Mr. ALLISON4 I have not the decision before me and I do not 

recollect the exact ground upon which it went. 

M:r. DOLPH. I suppose it went on the ground that it was consid~ 

ered as a purchase of lU per cent., and therefore they were entitled to 

the payment of 1 per cent. on that purchase. 

Mr. ALLISON. I think very likely that was it. Whatever our ob4 

ligation is under that decision I am for paying, but I am not for paying one dollar beyond our legal and proper obligation. These people have no equity, and they come to us in no condition to ask the Government 

of the United States to grant them equity. 

Mr. HOAR. If I can have the attention of the Senate for two minutes or thereabouts, I shall not abuse its patience any longer. 

This is not the case of something which the Government promised 

to do for somebody else in the way of a payment of something; it is a case of over-taxation in substance, that is, the law saying that every man who takes $500 worth of stamps for a certain purpose shall have a rebate of 10 per cent.: the stamps indicating the payment of a tax. 

Of course the tax is really only $45 and not $50, and the.Government 

has got out of him more than it is entitled to receive. 

That question has gone to the Supreme Court of the United States, 

and the Supreme Court of the United States, not once, but twice (the 

Attorney-General thinking of a further point and therefore carrying it 

np the secon<;I time), has decided that the Government owes this money 

to these people. Now, that is settled, and the fact which makes my 

honorable friend from Iowa, who would do an injustice to no man knowingly, prepared to say he is ready to pay it, exists. 

How does it h_appen that, if these people have a debt against the 

Government, it requires a statute to pay it, is the next question. 

When the cases went up they made their claim that they bad been over- taxed, and that the Government had taken out of them $500 when it 

should have taken only $450 plus· 99 per cent. of the remaining $50; 

that is, it paid back to them in stamps worth so much less. Thereupon 

the Secretary of the Interior a~reed with them ''"if instead of bringing 

five hundred suits you will only bring two to t~st the question, I will 

pay you the money according to the decision of the Supreme Court." 

Mr . .ALLISON. Will the Senator allow me to interrupt him? 
8158 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. AUGUST 31, 

Mr. HOAR. Let me finish my statement. If that be true, is it .ported in the House unanimously from the House Committee on Claims, 

proper that we should keep the faith of the Government so pledf?:ed and the pending bill was reportE:d unanimously by the Committee on by the Secretary of the Treasury? Is not that a reasonable and a Claims of the Senate. -

proper arrangement to make? It saves the Government costs by the Mr. ALLISON. I only express my own view as respects these 

hundreds and thousands of dollars. It saves this enormous apparent claims Iftbis payment is to be put upon the ground that these claimlitigation on the statute. . ants were misled by the proposition of the Sec.ret.ary of the TreasMr. Folger says he made that bargain with these men, and just as nry--

soon as he found the case was decided he want-ed to pay them, but in Mr. HOAR. If the Senator will pardon me, it is not that they were looking into his authority he found h-e had not authority under the ap- misled. 

propriations to make the payment from the Treasury without an act of . 1\fr. ALLISON. Very well. One part of the Senator's argument is 

Congress. He thereupon wrote a letter to Congress, drew a bill in the that we are bound in honor to pay these claims, becau e their owners 

Treasury Department, and asked for authority to keep his bargain. had an understanding with the Secretary of the Treasury that there 

Then when Ir. Folger died, the act not having been passed at that should be on~ test case. 

time, Mr. Fairchild sent in another letter to us and said, ''I have looked Mr. HOAR. There were two test cases. 

into this matter. 1\Iy predeceswr made this arrangement, and I can M:r. ALLISON. Well, two test cases, and if those cases went against 

not pay the money for two reasons. In the first place, I have not an the Government, then the Secretary of the Treasury would pay all these 

appropriation, and if! had I could not go back and pay something which cl:tims. Whatever obligation there is on om part because of that 

my predecessor said be could not pay without an act of Congress. Now promise, I am willing to fulfill; but if such promi e wns made it does 

I ask yon for an act of Congress." Mr. Fairchild's language is: not appear from any letter or statement of a Secretary of the Treasury. 

Accepting these decisions, I conctu in the expression of the Commissioner of I venture to say that a. full examination of the facts will disclos~ that 

Internal Revenue- the payment of this immense amoqpt of $50,000,000 bad gone on for 

Who also mentions the same thin~- fil'teen years or twenty years, before any claimant ever suspected that 

that I see no objection to the passage of the bill. he bad a claim for 1 per cent. -

:Mr. ALLISON. If the .senator will allow me one moment, this Mr. HOAR. Where does that appear? 

matter comes to my mind gradually, b ecause I had occasion to exam- . Mr. AL~ISON .. Th~t does not appear anywhere in the report, but 

ine it some years ago. The large manufacturers of cosmetics and pro- It appears lD the Situation. . . . . prietary articles under the law were authorized to pay money in ad-~ ~~r. COCKRELL. Rea.d the letter ofSecret.ary Fatrchtld. You will 

vance and receive stamps. It was their custom for many years to see It there. . . . . . transmit to the Commissioner of Internal Revenue a thousand dollars, ~IT. ALLISON:- It appear~ lD th.e sttuatH~n, whiCh IS th3:t here ~as for instance, and he would transmit to them a thousand dollars in a. statr~te passed m 1863 and 1t was not unbl 18 2 that this question 

stamps. covering not only the commission of 10 per cent. in stamps, !has raised-twenty years afterward. . but covering the whole amount. That process went on, the accounts Mr. HOAR. Twenty ;rears afte! the pa sage of the statute, not 

were settled and adjusted from time to time, and afterwards the prac- twenty years after the ?la ~ had ansen. tice of givin(J' bond was also used in the office of the Commissioner of Mr. ALLISON. This bill proposes to go b:lCk twenty years andreInternal Re;enue. st~te_ an ac~unt that must have been stated in the office of the UomMr. HOAR. The Senator has taken more than a minute. I tbou~ht ~msswne: of Internal Revenue and assented to by these people. That 

he rose for a question. 1s the pomt I make. . . . 1\fr. ALLISON. Very well· I will wait until tbeSenatorgetsthrouO'h. Now, I say that ~here can be no eqmtable obligation upon the Go.vMr. HOAR. Go on. ' o ernment of the Umted States to open ca'3es twenty years after the dtsMr. ALLISON. No; I do not wish to interrupt the Sena.tor. covery of an erroneous statement of accounts had been made. Those 

Mr. HOAR. I took the Senator off from his argument· but I thou<Ybt men accepted the settlements an?- statements as made, and they ought h fi a uestion ' o to be bound by them; and especially ought they to be bound by them 

el\~ eArLJoN. Very well. when they hav~ no equita.b~e claim upon th~ Government. They ?o 

Mr. HOAR. What 1 have to say is this: 1 do not understand that not sta!l? herem the posttion of bavmg eqmty. They s~:nd. here 1.n 

the question whether I keep my promise depends on the charact-er or },he ~ositiOn of men who took advantage of a statute great1y m tbetr 

merit of tqe man to whom it is made. avoi. . . . ·- _ . . . Mr. ALLISON. Just read the promise. Here was a d1e co.stmg $2, or $..>, or $\JO, U yon please, ~pon wh1~h 

Mr. HOAH. I understand that it depends on my character solely the. stamps ':ere prmted, and beca.u. e they owned that ~1e ~~d pa1d 

whether I shall keep the promise or not; and I do not understand that the1~ mone;v m adva~ce they.were able to secure 10 per c.ent. s~ount. 

the CJ.Uestion whether the Government shall keep its promise, or its I say that m my behef and JUdgme,nt they ha>e no eqmty. If I .can officers who are charged with the transaction of its business shall be be sh.own a statement where~y the Secreta~y of tb~ Treasury promised 

·sustained in reasonable cases in keeping theirs, has anything to do with that 1f the Supreme Court deCided the que~tlOn agamst the Government 

it. These men were o>ertaxed, whether they were manufacturers or be would open these cases ~rom the begmmng and restate every ~ccount, 

whether they were wealthy men or poor men; and the Supreme Court then I s~all feel bounrl, w1th the Se~a:or from M~ssachusetts, 1nhonor 

of tile United States said so. Here is the finding in the report sub- to pay this money. But I do not thinl'" anysll:c~ record co.n be sh~wn. 

jt t d b the Senator from Wisconsin [Ur. SPOONER]: l\Ir. HO~R.. I hav~ ~reat respec~ for the opmwn of t~e Senator from m e Y . ha 11 d th u "ted St t . th Co Iowa, and if hts opposttiOn to the blll now remains restmg solely upon 'l'he reason why thecla.tmants venot a sue e 111 a es 1n · e urt -+b · t th t th t t t · d t th" t "th th G of Claims is, that under the arrangement between the. claimants and the Com- " e porn a . e s a emen . lD regar. 0 18 agreemen Wl e ov- missioner of Internal Revenue then in office, the case of the Swift and Cou~ ernment made 1n the report IS not venfied by any documentary matter, 

ney and Beecher Company was m~de a. lest case, and the ~thers were to a~ide I am willin(J' to let the bill go over until that is verified because it can the result. But that case was pendmg six years, and when It was finallydec1ded b Hied 0 · ' 

the new Commi.o;.'lioner declined to carry out the arrangements of his prede- e >er · . . . cessor, and the statute of limitations then barred these cases in the Court of Mr. ALLISON. 1\Iy pomt IS that 1f the Secretary of the Treasury 

Claims. . made this agreement, and it shall be shown that my construction of 

_ r r. ALLISON. Where .do you read from? ., the statute is not a. correct one, all those w bo buy stamps hereafter will 

:Mr. HO.A.R. I read from the last page of the report. Of course be entitled to the new construction; but surely no Secretary of the 

tl1e new Commissioner could not carry it out for the reason which was Treasury would he willing to go back and readjust an account involvstaterl previously in the report. ing $50,000,000 without a most careful examination. 

1 hat is the whole situation, and I can not conceive a case which could Mr. HOAR. Let me call my friend's attention to another point. 

present itself to a mau of honor, if he were dealing with the case ot He speaks as if these were twenty-year old matters. The bill only 

his own agents, if he were a business man, which could possibly be authorizes payment to those who bought stamps under a certain section 

more plain and cogent and stringent in its obligations in every sense, of the Heviscd Statutes which was passed in 1874, so that it cau not go 

aju~t claim, a claim of ove1taxation decided by our supreme t.ribunll.l back of that. 

on hearing and rehearing, consideration and reconsideration, to be the Mr. COCKRELL. That was only a continuation of the old law. 

due of these men. Whether they are great manufacturers or little, Mr. HOAR. But whether it was or not, the bill limits the payment 

whether that was a reasonable law or not, the United States owes that to that period of time, and this comes up to 1\Iay, H:!82. If the objecmouey to tho e men just as much as it owes any dollar bill or any Gov· tion from the Senator from Iowa would be removed by an amendment 

ernment bond. providing that no claims of this kind which were not presented to the 

That is the first proposition; and the second proposition is that the Treasury Department within a certain time, six years from May, 1882, 

real'lon why they did not sue in the Court of Claims is because the rep- when the case was carried up, I have no objection to that; or if the 

· resentatives of the United States desired them not to do s , and agreed Senator's point is, as 1 understood him first to make the point, that be 

that if they would not sue these cases should be the test cases. That doubtedwhethertherewasanydocumentaryevidence oftbisagreement, 

has been done, and that is proved by the authority of two successive that can be' produced. He now says be is satisfied the agreement took 

SecretarieS of the Treasury, one who framed the bill and the other of place. 

whom sends in a recommendation to pass it. Mr. ALLISON. No, I am not satisfied. I said if the agreement took 

Mr. HAMPTON. Is it a Honse bill? place I knew nothing about it. I presume there may have been an 

Mr. HOAR. No; it is a Senate bill. There was a similar bill re- agreement about a test case-a. Secretary of the Treasury might mako 
1888. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 8159-

such an agreement; but as to 'the other point, would a SecreLaryofthe 

Treasury make an agreement that would authorize anybody to readjust 

accounts of twenty years' standing? 

Mr. HOAR. If the question is one of doubt in the Senator's mind 

as to the agreement of the Treasury Department, and whether it ~xisted, let the bill go over until the documentary evidence can be produced. To that I have no objection. · Mr. ALLISON. I hope the Senator will allow the bill to go over, 

and I shall look into it further. It may be that I am mistaken about 

the question of an agreement. 

Mr . . HOAR. I wish to say that I have no personal knowledge of this 

matter. I received a letter from gentlemen in Bo~ton (I do not know 

what their occupation is), asKingmetospeak to the Senatorfrom Wis- consin who made the report and call the bill up. The gentlemen are strangers to me. On looking at the report it seemed to me so absolutely plafn a case, and knowing that the Senator from Wisconsin is 

out of town, I called it up in his absence. 

Mr. ALLISON. I will say to the Senator, if he will allow me, that 

my attention was called to this case by one of these claimants some three or four years ago. He brought his case before me and I examined 

all his papers. He wanted the amount inserted in one of the appropriation bills. 

Mr. HOAR. That is what the Treasury Department recommended. 

Mr. ALLISON. It is probable that the Treasury Department recommended that course. The person to whom I refer had a claim under 

the statute of, I think, $60,000, it may have been twice that amount; 

it was a large sum of money. It required, as it seemed to me upon 

that examination, legislation to enable him to secure the money, and I 

did not believe that the Government of the United States was under 

any legal or equitable obligations to provide that legislation. 

Mr. BERRY. I move that the Senate adjourn. 

Mr. HOAR. Let the bill go over. The PRESIDENT p ro tempore. The bill will resume its place on the 

Calendar. The Senator from Arkansas moves that the Senate adjourn. 

Mr. COCKRELL. I hope the Senator from Arkansas will permit an executive session. I believe there are some nominations. Are there 

not? 

Mr. BERRY. No, I do not think there are. :Mr. COCKRELL. All right. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question is on agreeing to the 

motion of the Senator from Arkansas that the Senate adjourn. 

The motion was agreed to; and (at 5 o'clock and 6 minutes p. m.) 

the Senate adjourned until Monday, September 3, 1888, at 12 o'clock 

meridian. 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVE5. 

FRIDAY, August 31, 1888. 

The House met at 12 o'clock m. Prayer by Rev . .T. H. CuTHBERT) 

D. D. 

The Journal of yesterday's proceedings was read and approved. 

AMERICAN REGISTER FOR STEAl'tiER SAGINAW. 

The SPEAKER laid before the House the bill (S. 3364) to provide 

for an American register for the steamer Saginaw of New York. 

Mr. DUNN. Mr. Speaker, the Committee on the.Mercbant Marine 

and Fisheries have unanimously reported a bill which is an exactcopy 

of the Senate bill. I have carefully examined them; and 1 ask unanimous consent now to place the Senate bill upon its passage. 

The SPEAKER. The bill will he read now, subject to the right of 

objection. 

The bill was read, as fol1ows: 

B e it enacted, etc., That the Commissioner of Navigation is hereby authorized and directed to cause the foreign-built steamer Benison, owned at the port of New York, State of New York, by '\V. P. Clyde, an American citizen, and rebuilt by him in the United States, to be registered as a. vessel of the United States un- der the name of the Saginaw. SEC. 2. That the Secretary of the Treasury be, and hereby is, authori.zed and directed to authorize and direct the inspection of said steam-vessel, steam-boiler, 

steam-pipes, and the appurtenances of said boiler, and cause to be granted the proper and usual certificate issued to steam-vessels of the merchant marine, without reference to the fact that said steam-boiler, steam-pipes, and appur- tenances were not constructed pursuant to the laws of the United States, and were not constructed of iron stamped pursl,lant to said laws; and the tests to be applied on the inspection of said boiler, steam-pipes, and appurtenances will be the same in all respects as to strength and safety as are required in the inspec- tion of boile rs constructed in the United States for marine purposes, save that the fact that said boiler, steam-pipes, and appurtenances not being constructed pursuant to the requirements of the laws of the United States, and are of un- stamped iron, shall not be an obst.acle to the granting of the usual certificate if said boiler, steam-pipes, and appurtenances are fotmd to be of sufficient strength and safety. 

There being no objection, the bill was considered, ordered to a third 

re:uling, and 'being read the third time was passed. 

~ir. DUNN moved to reconsider the vote by which the bill was passed; 

and also moved that the motion to reconsider be laid on the table. 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

The SPEAKER If there be no objection the bill (H. R. 10904) on the same subject will be ]aid on the table. 

There was no objection, _and it was so ordered. 

SEN ATE BILLS REFERRED. 

The SPEAKER also laid before the House Senate bills of the following titles; which were read twice and referred as follows, namely: 

The bill (S. 3475) granting the use of certain lands in Pierce County, 

Washington Territory, to the city ofTacoma for the purposes of a public park-to the Committee on the Public Lands; and · The bill (S. 3482) to authorize the construction and operation of a wagon road across the Pike's Peak reservation in the State of Coloradoto the Committee on ·Military affairs. 

LEAVE OF ABSENCE. 

By unanimous consent, leave of absence was granted as follows: 

To Mr. GROUT, indefinitely, on account of important business. 

To Mr. DAVIDSON, of Florida, for :fifteen days after to-day, on ac- count of important business. 

To M:r. JoHNSTON, of North Carolina, indeP,nite1y, on account of serious illness. 

To M:r. ERMENTROUT, for two vv;eeks, on account of important business. WITHDRAWAL OF PAPERS. 

By unanimous consent, leave was granted to Mr. WHITE, of Indiana, 

to withdraw from the :files of the Honse papers in the case of W. W. 

Wilkinson, on House bill No. 8224; which was referred to the Committee on Claims. · 

ENROLLED BILJ,. 

. Mr. KILGORE, from the Committee on Enrolled Bills, reported that 

the committee bad examined and found duly enro1led a joint resohrtion of the following title; when the Speaker signed the same: Joint resolution (H. Res. 219) to continue the provisions of a joint 

resolution entitled a •' Joint resolution to provide temporarily for the 

expenditures ofthe Government.'' 

ORDER OF BUSINESS. 

Mr. FORNEY. I now call up the conference report on the sundry 

civil appropri~tion bill. This matter was presented to the House sev- eral days ago, and the report was printed by order of the House. 

Mr. CANNON. I ask the gentleman from Alabama to yield to me 

for a moment to allow me to offer a resolution of inquiry touching the 

printing of a certain public document. · Mr. FORNEY. Will it require any considerable time? 

:Mr. CA.NNON. Oh, no; it will take but a few moments. 

Mr. FORNEY. Very well. I yield to the gentleman. 

STATISTICAL REPORT ON WOOL AND WOOLEN l't:IANUFACTURE3. 

:Mr. CANNON. :Mr. Speaker, I desire to submit at this time the resolution I hold in my hand, and which I will read: 

Whereas the following concurrent resolution was delivered to the Public Printer on the 30th day of July, 1888: "That there be printed 1':',000 copies of the rec~ntspecial report of the Chief of the Bureau of Statist.ics of the Treasury Department upon wool and the m a nu- facturesof wool, as follows: 10,000 copies for the use of the membet·s of the House of Representatives; 5,000 for the use of the members of the Senate; and 2,000 for the use of the Bureau of Statistics, Trea.!iury Department : ' ' Resolved, That the Committee on Printing be instructed to make inqui-ry a n d inform the House when-the documents ordered to be printed by said resolution will be delivered at the folding-room, and the cause of the delay on the part o1 the Public Printer in printing the same. 

I want to state in this connection that this was delivered to the Public Printer on the 30th day of July, and the report in question was corrected on the 1st of August. It is a document for which we have all 

of us many inquiries, as it is a matter of much interest to a great many 

persons. It was printed and the pages stereotyped months ago; and, as I have said, the corrections have been made in the plates, and there 

is no reason, as I am informed, why it should not have come back to 

the House within two days after the adoption of that resolution. 

I do not offer this resolution, Mr. Speaker, for the purpose of.finding 

fault with the Public Printer, except merely to get the document in 

question. 

.M:r. WEAVER. What is the document? 

Mr. CANNON. It is the statistical report relating to wool and the 

manufactures of wool. _ 

The SPEAKER. The Chair will state that the chairman of the Committee on Printing does not seem to be present. This appears to be a resolution directing that committee to make the inquiry. 

Mr. CANNON. Yes, sir. 

The SPEAKER Does the gentleman desire to offer the resolution 

for present consideration? 

.M:r. GANNON. Yes, I shall be glad to have the resolution passed. 

The SPEAKER. The question is on agreeing to the resolution. 

Mr. TAULBEE. Let it be reported. 

The SPEAKER. The resolution bas been read by the gentleman 

from Illinois himself, but the Clerk will again report the resolution. 

The resolution was again read. · 

The SPEAKER. Is there objection? 

Mr. CLEMENTS. I think this had better go to the Committee on 

Printing. Therefore I object to its present consideration. 

Mr. CANNON. I hope the gentleman will not interpose an objection. This is simply to secure the document without delay. 

:Mr. CLEMENTS . . The resolution recites certain facts of which the