OIC-302 (Rev. 8-19-94) 

- 1 - 

OFFICE OFTHE IXmEPENDENT COWSEL 

Date of transcnptton 2/2/98 

ISABELE YOUNG WATKINS, Executive Assistant to U.S. 

Ambassador to the United Nations, BILL RICHARDSON, was made 

available for interview by her attorney, FREDERICK P. HAFETZ, at 

the law firm GOLDMAN & HAFETZ, 500 Fifth Ave., New York, NY. 

HAFETZ was present during the interview. Both were advised of 

the purpose-of the interview and the official identity of Office 

of Independent Counsel Investigator 

Bureau of Investigation Special Agent ~nd":;~~~~l 

thereafter provided the following information: 

WATKINS has been employed in her present position since 

February 1997. Prior to her current position, WATKINS was BILL 

RICHARDSON's Chief of Staff in his congressional office from 

September 1988 to January 1997. 

WATKINS summarized her job responsibilities as being 

RICHARDSON's "gate keeper." If anyone calls RICHARDSON, WATKINS 

is the one who receives the calls and screens them. Because of 

the number of years she has worked for RICHARDSON, WATKINS knows 

who RICHARDSON wants to talk to and who he prefers to talk to at 

a later time. If RICHARDSON is not in at the time of the call, 

WATKINS prepares a "call sheet" listing the names of the 

individuals that called, date, time, number and short message. 

The call sheet is on their WANG Word Processor and WATKINS 

removes the names after RICHARDSON has returned the call or 

RICHARDSON has instructed her to remove the name. 

WATKINS also takes care of RICHARDSO&J's scheduling, 

especially his visits to Washington D.C., since she worked in 

RICHARDSON's Washington, D.C., office for over ten years. 

WATKINS will normally make the initial calls to set up 

RICHARDSON's appointments. RICHARDSON's day is normally very busy 

with three or four events plus a number of face-to-face meetings. 

WATKINS described RICHARDSON as a "hands on" type person. 

Most of the employees in the U.S. Mission are foreign 

service employees. There are also some civil servants, contract 

employees and political appointment positions. WATKINS' position 

is considered a political appointment position. Contract 

employees are hired to do specific tasks and are normally hired 

to Assist when the General Assembly is in session. WATKINS 

Invesrigation on l/30/98 ar New York City, NY FilcI 29D-LR-35063 

-. 

Date dictated 2/2/98 
4474 

OIC-302a (Rev. 8-19-94) I 

29D-LR-35363 

Conrinuanon of OK-302 of ISABELE YOUNG WATKINS .on l/30/98 ,Page 2 

estimated that, during the General Assembly sessions, the Mission 

may have a staff of up to 300 employees. During this past 

October and November of 1997, Ambassador Richardson has been 

exceptionally busy, since during those months he was designated 

to be President of the Security Council. 

Prior to mid-January 1998, WATKINS had two assistants, 

DEBBY NELSON, who has worked for the State Department for 

approximately 20 years, and FIONA HIGGINS, a contract employee, 

who left in mid-January to work for another ambassador. 

Almost every week, RICHARDSON has three meetings in 

SANDY BERGER's office in the White House, one on Tuesday. 

afternoon, another on Wednesday morning, and the third on Friday 

afternoon. Rather than flying back to New York and returning the 

next day, RICHARDSON normally stays in Washington D.C., at the 

WATERGATE HOTEL (where he maintains a suite for his use while in 

Washington) on Tuesday evenings. 

In mid-October 1997, RICHARDSON came back to New York 

from one of his Washington D.C. meetings and mentioned to WATKINS 

that he ran into JOHN PODESTA while in Washington D.C. PODESTA 

told RICHARDSON that there was someone RICHARDSON should consider 

for a job within the U.N. Mission. RICHARDSON told WATKINS to 

"keep an eye out" for this person's resume that PODESTA was going 

to send to RICHARDSON's New York office. RICHARDSON receives a 

number of resumes from a number of different sources. WATKINS 

did not think it was unusual for-PODESTA to be recommending 

someone to RICHARDSON because when ERSKINE BOWES took over as 

White House Chief of Staff, he gave PODESTA the responsibility of 

handling the personnel selection for the White House. 

WATKINS never received a fax or letter from PODESTA's 

office and did not follow up on the matter until a couple days 

later (but still before RICHARDSON's Congo trip) when RICHARDSON 

asked her if she had received the faxed resume that PODESTA was 

going to send them. WATKINS responded that she had not received 

it. RICHARDSON asked WATKINS to contact PODESTA's office to 

inquire about it. WATKINS called PODESTA's office and thought 

she probably spoke to PODESTA's secretary, SARAH Last Name 

Unknown (LNU) _ From WATKINS' conversation with SARAH, it 

appeared that SARAH did not know about the resume. SARAH told 

WATKINS that she would talk to PODESTA about the resume. It is 
4475 

OK-3024 (Rev. 8-IY-%. ’ 

29D-X-35063 

Contmuatlon of OK-302 of ISABELE YOUNG WATKINS .On I/30/98 ,Page 3 

WATKINS' recollection that at the time of her call to SARAH, 

neither of them had heard of the name MONICA LEWINSKY. 

Later the same day, someone called back to verify the 

correct fax number, and then the office received a fax of 

LEWINSKY's resume. WATKINS did not recall there being a cover 

sheet, but knew it was from PODESTA's office because of the 1) 

telephone prefix number (designates the-white House) that was 

printed on the top of the fax. After receiving the fax, WATKINS 

thought she probably took it to MONA SUTPHEN. WATKINS vaguely 

recalls discussing with SUTPHEN whether they could arrange for 

RICHARDSON to meet with LEWINSKY during one of his weekly trips 

to Washington, D.C. WATKINS contacted LEWINSKY and scheduled the 

interview, but had to reschedule it because of RICHARDSON's trip 

to the Congo. 

RICHARDSON returned to Washington, D-C., from his trip 

to the Congo on October 30, 1997. WATKINS initially scheduled 

LEWINSKY's interview with RICHARDSON for approximately 8:30 a.m. 

or 9:00 a.m., on October 31, 1997. Because of some changes in 

RICHARDSON's calendar, WATKINS had to reschedule the interview 

for 7:30 a.m., on October 31, 1997, at RICHARDSON's suite at the 

WATERGATE HOTEL. WATKINS' recollection is that it was arranged 

for SUTPHEN to meet LEWINSKY in the lobby of the WATERGATE HOTEL 

and SUTPHEN would take her up to RICHARDSON's suite for the 

interview. WATKINS was in New York on the date of LEWINSKY's 

interview. WATKINS had no further conversations with LEWINSKY. 

If there were any discussions about yhat possible 

positions may be available on RICHARDSON's staff for LEWINSKY, ’ 

WATKINS was not involved in them. After LEWINSKY's interview, 

WATKINS had no further discussions with RICHARDSON about 

LEWINSKY. The only other time WATKINS can recall talking to 

SUTPHEN about LEWINSKY was sometime in November 1997, when 

WATKINS was in SUTPHEN's office discussing the staffing of 

RICHARDSON's Washington, D-C., office. The office only had a 

small staff and a couple of them were leaving. WATKINS was 

concerned about the staffing problem in the Washington, D-C., 

office and thought that LEWINSKY may have been considered to 

replace one of the staff that was leaving. WATKINS asked SUTPHEN 

about LEWINSKY's status and SUTPHEN replied that she had talked 

to LEWINSKY and LEWINSKY decided she wanted a job in the private 
4476 

OIC-302a (Rex S-19-94) j 

29D-LR-35063 

Continuation of OIC-302 of ISABELE YOUNG WATKINS .~n l/30/98 , Page 4 

sector. This was the last discussion WATKINS had with anyone 

concerning LEWINSKY until LEWINSKY's name appeared in the press. 

When LEWINSKY's name was mentioned in the press, 

WATKINS did not initially connect her name with the person 

RICHARDSON interviewed on October 31, 1997. It was not until 

KATHY LNU (assigned to the Protocol Section), brought it to 

WATKINS' attention that LEWINSKY's name was listed on RICHARDSON'S 

schedule for October 31, 1997, that WATKINS connected LEWINSKY's 

name with the interview she had previously set up. Either on the 

day KATHY LNU talked to her or the next day, President CLINTON 

and LEWINSKY's picture together was shown in the press. WATKINS 

later talked to MONA SUTPHEN and REBECCA COOPER about LEWINSKY. 

Discussions with SUTPHEN and COOPER were related to recalling the 

date and time of LEWINSKY's interview with RICHARDSON. WATKINS 

never had any discussions about LEWINSKY with RICHARDSON after 

LEWINSKY'S name was mentioned in the press. 

WATKINS is not aware of President CLINTON, VERNON 

JORDAN, BETTY CURRIE, DEBBIE SCHIFF or ERSKINE BOWLES, having any 

involvement in recommending or setting up LEWINSKY's interview 

with RICHARDSON. WATKINS has not had any discussions with 

RICHARDSON regarding his statement that was released to the 

press. 

WATKINS advised that a log is kept of all outgoing 

calls. The logs are kept by the four digit extensions. WATKINS 

provided the following extensions: 

WATKINS' telephone 

RICHARDSON's telephone, although 

WATKINS uses it on occasion. 

MONA SUTPHEN 

WATKINS heard of no discussions about making LEWINSKY 

her assistant or Ambassador RICHARDSON's personal secretary in 

New York. It was WATKINS' opinion that they had no vacancies in 

this area in the New York office. WATKINS described RICHARDSON 

as a "micro manager" who likes to interview all political 

appointees himself. WATKINS expressed the view that she wishes 

he wouldn't try to interview all appointees. There have been 

occasions in the past that RICHARDSON hired someone for a 

position that did not exist. WATKINS or someone else would have 
OK-302a (Rev. S-19-94) b 

4477 

29D-LR-35063 

Conmuation of OIC-302 of ISABELE YOUNG WATKINS , on l/30/98 .page 5 

to recontact the person to inform them that the position was not 

available or would not be available for at least several months. 

WATKINS does not recall any involvement of PETER 

BURLEIGH, Chief Deputy Ambassador, in the interview process of 

MONICA LEWINSKY; however, he is the person who would be involved 

in the creation of a job description and the matching of an 

appropriate salary. 

WATKINS is described as follows from observation and 

interview: 

Name: 

Sex: -- 

Race: 

DOB: = 

SSAN : 

Home Address: 

Home Telephone: 

Business Telephone: 

Business Fax Number: 
447% 
4479 

lsabelle Watkins, 5/27/98 

Deposition 

Page 2 to Page _ 

f 

CONDENSED TRANSCRIPT AND CONCORDANCE 

PREPARED BY: 

OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 

Suite 490-North 

Washington, DC 20004 

Phone: 202-514-8688 

FAX: 202-5 14-8802 

_. 
4480 

Page 2 

:--.: ‘- : :Ht INDEPENDENT 'SUN::: 

x 

lsabelle Watkins, 5/271g8 

Page 5 

r, I Q All right. Now, what we are doing here today IS we 

11 jare doing a video deposltion of you In lieu of a 

3 :appearance and let me explain what we mean ?J 

rand jury 

y that. In 

i I lessence. what we are doing IS. although you are not 

L 5 1 physlcally appeartng before the grand jury,, we are doin 

[r; 1 everythtn In a manner today consistent with what wou B d 

[ - 1 ha pen I you were in front of the grand ju p. fg 

xThe 

f 9 j an lctpation is that the vldeotape made of t IS deposltion 

9! will be shown to the grand jury at some point. Do you 

1 ; o 1 understand that? 

;I11 A Yes. 

1 0 So, let me o ahead and explain to you what your 

i :; 1 rights and obligations are I! efore a 

8. r* 

rand ju since those 

[ i 4 1 are sort of;he r$;s~,the road tha WIII con rot Okay? 

,,=,I ,--, 

1161 0 All riaht. 

;17j A Yes.-Sony. 

Q That’s okay. Now first of all, you have a couple 

1: E iof important rights when you apkar before a 

f 20 1 have a Fifth Amendment right not to incrimina ? 

rand jury. You 

e yourself. 

I 2 11 And what that means is! you have a right to refuse to answer 

122 lany 

[ 23 1 coul a 

uestions if you bekeve in ood farth that the answer 

[24lthat?- 

subject you to criminal ka ikty. Do you understand 

%.. 

[251 A Yes. 

Page 3 Page 6 

. . . 

.a, PROCEEDINGS Cl Do you have any questions about your Fifth 

“1 

1; 1 employed by De 

y name is Crai W. Murphy and I am 

i: ;g~y ,s ~~~G~Inulrporaled. ?-he date 

1: i Amendmeit rig;;: 

(31 

Q 

1998 The trme IS approxrmatety ( 10 : 12 ) I:; that works 

You also have the right to counsel. Now, the way 

in a grand jury settin 

[ 6 1 be allowed to be in the room wrt .?l 

is your attorney would not 

This deposition is being held at 2101 L Street, 

you In front of the grand 

It;N.W. Washington D. C. The name of the wttness is Ms. 

~7 Ijury, or for purposes of today in thus deposition room, but 

: 3 1 Isabelle Watkms. ‘This de 

~3 1 ou 

P 

osition of Ms. Watkins is being u; 

are absolutely entitled to be represented by counsel. 

[ 91 ou can have 

[ 91 taken by the Office of the ndependent Counsel In Re: Grand 

our counsel right outside the door and you 

:;!Jury lnvesti ation. 

( IO Iwould be abte r o consutt with your counsel at any time during 

.’ ' 1 A?this time, the attorneys will identify 

t Ii 1 themselves. 

I 111 the procee?rngy~so you understand that? 

(121 

And, as I understand it, you are represented by 

::31 MR. BIENERT: My name is Thomas H. Bienert, Jr. 

::41 MR. LERNER: Crai S. Lemer. 

VIDEOGRAPHER. % this time the court reporter will 

‘i :z{ identify herself and swear in the witness, please. 

~ And is counsel’s name Justin Simon? 

1171 A Yes. 

COURT REPORTER: 

K~WHEREUPON 

My name is Elttbeth Eastman. i Cl And in fact, we are at Mr. Simon’s offices here 

ISABELLE WATKINS 

I 

1::; having been called for examination by the office of the I 

I:zitoday at Drstv;s.Shapiro, correct? 

1201 

tzlllndependent Counsel and having been first duly sworn by the 

[22 1 notary, was examined and testii as follows: 

iG:idurin 

EXAMINATION BY OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT CO 

t23)want 

1231 NSELt2rl 

I241 BY MR BIENERT: t251 Q 

Q Ma’am. my name is Tom Bienert and this is Craig 

Okay. Do you have any questions about your right 

I251 

Page 4 Page 7 

(~)Lemer. The two of us are Associate lnde ndent Counsel. 

[2rBasicall 

r31Counse r 

we are attorneys working at the $ ndependent 

s Office. I know you have also spoken, I believe, to 

(I )some peep frgshe office awhile back. Da you recall that? 

(Wiiess nodded indicating an affirmative 

: 12 1 response.) 

Q First of all. what I would ask that you do is, 

i i:isince the court reporter has to make sure that we get 

:lsleveXf hrng ‘. down as she is going to make a verbatrm transcript 

::61of w at IS said. it is important that instead of nodding your 

! :T 1 head or using 

A sres. 

estures. you speak out loud with words. Okay? 

. . LA31 

0 Second thing is in order to make it easier for her 

iizjto get everything down and so that it is easier when people 

:: : ; view the videotape to know what was being said, it is 

:22:important that we try not to talk over one another. Sp. what 

12 31 I will do is I will t not to speak when you are spf3akmg. 

::c!and I would askytsat you do the same. Is that fair? 

.251 A ’ 

I201 A Yes. 

t211 Q 

A I d&T know what 

Do ou have any 

/::;understand. 

s 

uestions about - 

he penalties were, but I 

Q 

I :: i or the concept of w at It means? 

Okat And do you have any questions about perjury 

OlC-Starr Page 2 to Page 7 
4481 

lsabelle Watkins, 5/27/98 XMAX(M) 

Page 8 

A Yes. 

Q All ri ht. 

A I wo R 

Where do you work? 

at the U S. Mrssron to the United Natrons. 

Q And howA It’s in New York I’m In the New York office 

Q How lona have vou worked there? j--/ 

11:’ 

113; 

[I41 

I151 

1161 

A 

Q 

Since February of last 

r 

ear. 

And who do you work or? 

A Ambassador Bill Richardson. 

Q And what is your title and duties? 

A I’m executive assistant. which covers a broad range 

i i 7 i of activities. I do some of the scheduling. 

LIEI Q 

IiIimakin 

A 

What other types of things do you do for him? 

I help with the protocol events. I help wrth 

sure that he has his briefing materials. I just - I 

[21ldo a II .Q le brt of everythin 

Q And wh 

realty. 

i :: i on Monica Lewinsky. den is the%s.t time that you recall 

on’t you o ahead and focus our attention 

[24 1 hearing anything about Monica Lewinsky or the person that you 

[ 2s 1 later learned was Monica Lewinsky? 

Page 9 

A Ambassador Richardson came back from a meeting in 

I: ;Washington. He oes there fairly regulady. The general 

[3] rule is he goes to%Vashinp two or three times a week. And 

[ 4 1 he came back from one o these visits to Washmgton and sard 

[sIthat they had someone that they,,the People at the Whrte 

~~~House,,mentioned to him In passrn 

[ 7 1 the White House that he oes to - 

e 

?- 

the meetings are all at 

[ 8 1 consider for a position at SUN, 

hat they wanted him to 

and they were going to fax a 

[ 9 1 resume. 

Q Do ou know a rough timeframe on when this would 

i:vi have happened, w t en It was that he would have said this to 

I12lyo”? 

A It would have to be ve 

I::;it had to have been in September or Ztober. 

rough. I’m, I’m assuming 

t151 Q AndwhatOnly because of when the appointment was finally 

Page IO 

So based on those dates, do you still believe this 

I: i probably wodld have been in September or Gctobef7 

I:l)accurate. 

A Yes. I I think that’s, you know, reasonably 

I think that between when the Ambassador mentioned 

tsjto me that he was goin 

tslarrival of the resume, t l? 

to be getting a resume and the actual 

ere was some delay. 

MR. LERNER: Perhaps we should introduce the 

ii{calendar as an exhibit to assist Ms. Watkins. 

t91 MR. BIENERT: Okay. That would be fine. 

t101 MR. LERNER: This IS just a blank calendar. 

IllI (Grand Jury Exhibit fW-1 was 

t121 marked for identification.) 

t131 BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q Yes that we kee hand in case there is anything 

[ ::i that you do want to’look at. T orf F; ave this marked as 

[ 16 IMI-l, and 2 sh\yat$ay’s date. 

ay we 

1171 

1181 Q So. there we are in G&o&r. I think that’s the 

iiiifirst one we start with. 

[201 MR. BIENERT: Is that right? 

1211 MR. LERNER: Right. 

[221 BY MR. BIENERT: 

t231 Q Okay. And yin, just for purpose of just keeping 

r24jdates in mind, the 1st wou have been, tt looks like, a 

rzs,Tuesday, and the 31st would have been a Friday. 

Page 11 

Okay Now. when Ambassador Richardson Indicated to 

ou. 

L 

I thank the term you used was “they”, meaning the White 

ouse. had menhoned someone that they mi ht want him to 

interview, or asked that he intervIew. first of a 9 I, did he 

Indicate who “they” were? 

A As I reca!l what the Ambassador said to me was that 

he and John Podesta had run into each other in the hall, and 

John said he had someone. that he was oing to send a resume 

I don’t think a name was menhoned at al. P I’m not sure that 

j-John knew who it was. 

Q So, your recollection is that Ambassador Richardson 

iii IIndicated that it was Mr. Podesta who menhoned this person, 

c I ?:who later turned out to be Monica Lewinsk 

! 14 candidate to be interviewed by the UN. Is Y, hat correct? 

as a possible 

115: A 

Q 

I’m sorry. I’m not sure of what your question was. 

I just want to clarify. It’s your recollection 

i:;jthat when Ambassador Richardson told you about his meetin in 

t13;the White House where someone mentioned in passin abou 

[ 19:possibly interviewing someone to work with you guys, Wat it ’ 

[2o:was Mr. Podesta that had said that to the Ambassador? 

A What - can you make it shorter? Can you make your 

I:: iquestion shorter? 

0 Did Ambassador Richardson use the name Podesta as 

I::ithe person who asked him to interview Monica Lewinsky? 

125; A That’s what I recall was that the Ambassador said 

Page 12 

[ 1: that it was John that he ran into in the hall and mentioned 

[z;this to him. Yes. 

Q The way that the Ambassador mentioned this to you, 

i:idid it suggest to you that he had spoken to more than one 

~~!oerson. namelv. more than Mr. Podesta. about possiblv 

i ijinterviewin this person? 

;;i 

1 No. 

Q Oka 

tgjfiichardson, what, I 

Now, after being told that by Ambassador 

anything. did you do? 

[IO! A I was ex ctrng the resume, but it didn’t come. 

[Ill Q So, wha p” happened next? 

A That’s why I m unsure about the timing, because 

I::jAmbassador Richardson was makin a number of trips in this 

[ 14 1 interval. And I’m not at all sure whet 9, er this could have 

If I could just interrupt for a 

Page 13 

[ll BY MR. LERNER: 

Q From Gctober 12th to October 19th, just to refresh 

I:; our memory, the Ambassador was in Latin America 

(4 1 z now d you recall him takin 

I don’t 

rslthe President and with Mr. B 

a trip to Latin America with 

odesta. Does that - 

A Oh I know he went on a trip with the Ambassador - 

I7”il mean, with the President. 

Q So do you think that the first time that you had 

Ii{ heard that someone would soon be sending a resume, was that 

tlojbefore the Latin America trip, before October 12th? 

,111 A I would. I would assume that. ves. it was before 

that someone might be sending a resume 

tlslfrom the White House, was that immediately after the Latin 

rl6yimerica tri 

A) 

? 

I’m sorry. Your question has me confused. I don’t 

I :i: know what first and second times are. 

Q I think you said before, when you met with the FBI 

I:i;agents, that there were two times that the Ambassador said 

t211that someone was going to be sending a resume from the White 

f22lHouse. 

123: A. No, that’s not - 

~241 Q That’s not correct? 

[251 A That’s not what I said, I don’t think. I didn’t 

_. 

Page 8 to Page 13 OlCStarl 
BSA 

4482 

lsabelle Watkins, 5127198 XMAW;‘?=l) 

Page 14 

: mean to sa that, if I did 

Okay. 

; if What I meant to say was that the first time he 

; mentioned, Ambassador Richardson mentioned it to me. The 

‘second time, I mentioned to him - 

Q Okay. 

A -that I had not received it 

:3. 0 And when did - 

> . A And he then told me to call and ask if they still 

i : : wanted him to interview this person, that I hadn’t received 

: : : the resume. I thou 

Q 

ht there was a possibility that they had 

:: :faxed It and I hadn gotten it because that happens too, 

: 3 : you know. Sometimes people send ou a fax and it gets lost 

: 4 ; In the process. So I was ‘ust - I d idy 

151 BY MR. BENEAT: 

then call. 

Q And then I think what Mr. Lemer is -we are 

if: i trying to bracket a time. This second instance where the 

i 3 1 resume was discussed, and you think you raised it with the 

ig1Ambassador - 

‘3 I A Uh-huh. 

Q - do you believe that that would have been af 

zd { he got back from the Latin American trip, which we believe 

;;rwas around the 19th of October but. of course. before the 

when it was. My -we had 

ter 

Page 15 

11 another trip. We had a trip to Africa in there, too. And I 

z !would have to real1 

3 1 there was enough ty 

look at my schedulesto know whether 

rme between the two tnps for us to have 

4 1 even discussed this. I real1 don’t know. 

51 BY MR. LERNER! 

61 Q The trip to the Congo was October 23rd until 

7 1 rough1 

g 

October 29th. In other words, Ambassador Rrchardson 

3 1 came ack from Latin America October 19th. which was a 

9 1 Sunday, and he left for the Congo on the 23rd, which I 

5 1 believe IS a Sunday - I’m sorry, whrch I believe IS a 

: I 1 Thursday. 

121 BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q 

: 2 1 Just to kind of make it easv. what l’h aoina to do is. I’m 

Why don’t we do this because this is confusing 

t lslmarkmg on Exhibit IW-1. fve drawn aTrow% from the 12th 

tlslthrough the 19th, and I’ve written ‘Latin Amen&. And then 

[ 17 1 I’m going to draw an arrow from the 23rd throuah - 

1181 MR. LERNEI R: The 29th. rouqhlv.- 

(191 BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q We’ll ‘ust ive or take a few days but we’ll start 

I:y;on the 23rd throu 9 h 1 he Z&h with a auestinma;k. and we’ll 

r77lwrite “Coneo”. ius to kind of make it’- and 1’11 also 

;;;iindrcate ori%& - and I’m going to give you this. 

A Okay. - - - 

Q And 1’11 also indicate on here that the resume - 

Page 16 

11 Iunfortunate 

12 ) to you that t 3: 

the copy I have is cut off, but 1’11 represent 

e resume that we have that has the fax 

I 3 I information at the top - 

[41 

Aa Okay. - gorn 

Iilthe date of the 21st. !!! 

from the White House to your office, has 

o, at least based on the indication 

t71on the resume, it was faxed to you on October Zlst. So, I’m 

[ 8 ljust going to put the word “Resume” - 

191 

Aa fkay. on the day of the 21st. So, I’m placing lW-1 

i:yiback in front of you. 

i ::; with the 

Obvious1 

Ambassa dye 

any discussions that you would have had 

or about the faxing of this resume would 

[ 14 1 have come before the 21st, correct? 

[I51 A I would assume that was true, yes. 

0 And I think you told us that you assumed, although 

i :! 1 you couldn’t be positive but that your best recollection 

[ 18 1 would be that the first time that the Ambassador mentioned to 

[ 19 1 ou to keep an eye out for this resume would have been prior 

1 zo 1 ro the trip to Latin America. So. we’re lookrng at probably 

12 I1 before the 12th of OctobeR 

!221 A I would assume that that’s correct. 

[231 

(241 

rzslknow. 

Q And now I think where we - 

A I just don’t remember though. I really 7 you 

I don’t have any notes that I can go on, the basis of 

OIC-Starr 

Page 17 

: : that. I’m just assumrn 

Q That’s ? 

that s true. 

me And. keep in mind, a!; we want you to 

,: jdo is tell us as accurately as you can. And if you don’t 

a lremember for sure, that’s absolutely appropriate as well. 

31 Let me ask you this question. Do you have a 

: I; 1 recollection of when you had the second conversation with the 

I- TAmbassador about the resume and mentioned to him that you 

3 : hadn’t gotten it yet. should you still be looking out for it, 

s!and he indicated to you to place a call to see what was up 

:s]with the resume; do you be!:eve that there was a significant 

: 11 amount of time that went by between the time you placed that 

1: icall to the White House and the time that you actually got 

: 3 1 the resume? Do 

x 

ou think rt was a couple of days or was it 

: 4 lweeks later that t e resume came? 

‘:51 A No, I think that happened - the followup. I think. 

: : 6 1 was reasonably uick. 

ri71 Q O%av. So then if we kind of come back to the 

: ; s i timing of when the Ambassador was back from Latin America. if 

i 19 1 he was back on the 19th, and then the 20th is the first 

r201Monday after that, and the Zlst is the da that the resume 

f 2 I 1 came, do you believe that R is likely that Lis second 

!rz]conversatron, the one where you asked him whether he wanted 

;231 ou to follow up, would have occurred probably around the 

:rrl~Oth?. 

!25] A I would - that would be a conclusion that I would 

Page 18 

I 1 I reach. I think. lookina at the calendar and so forth. I 

i 2 i think that’s probably%curate. 

Q 

t:lresponse to 

Okay. Now, after Ambassador Richardson. in 

[ 51 House, that 1: 

our question, said, go ahead and call the White 

appened? 

161 A I called John Podesta’s office, and I think I spoke 

- I do not remember exactly - I think I spoke with Sara, 

jzlwho is an assistant of his. and asked her if she knew 

iij anythin about a resume ‘that John was 

: 10 1 Ithink s 9, e said she really didn’t have - s % 

oing to send us. And 

e wasn’t exactly 

‘: 11 sure what it was that John had spoken about, but she would 

ilzlcheck. 

1131 Q 

A 

Okay. And then what happened? 

I ot a call and someone was checking our fax 

i::lnumber. I gave 4. rm the fax number, and then after that the 

[ I 6 1 resume was sent. 

Q 

I :iiexhibit. which I believe will - we are going to place 

Okay. And if we can go ahead and lafFr;he next 

g, 

t1slyou what we will mark as MI-2. Then we will make this one 

[2012-A. 

t211 (Grand Jury Exhibits MI-2 

t221 and lW2A were marked for 

[a31 identification.) 

I t241 BY MR BIENERT: 

I251 Q I am placing numbers 2 and 2-A before you, and I 

Page 19 

[I 1 will represent they are the same. It’s .ust that 2-A is the 

12 1 one I will ask you to look at because A has the fax 

1x1 information at the to 

[P 1 of October 21 st. 1 d 

. And reading aloud, that has the date 

[s]202 4561210. 

7, Tuesday, 3:09. lt shows a fax from 

Does that ap 

I76jwould have been faxe Be 

ar, ma’am, to be the resume that 

[ 8 1 Lewinsky? 

to your office on that day about Monica 

191 A 

Q 

It certainly looks like it would have been, yes. 

i :ii what would you have done with it. 

Okay. Now, oncelou would have gotten this resume 

A I tried to schedule an appointment in Washington. 

: :: i I called the work number first to try to set up an 

f 14 j appointment. 

Cl Now, first of all, when you got the resume, woutd 

i :zlyou have spoken, would you have given it to anyone, spoken to 

[ 17 I anyone about it? 

A I think I discussed it with Mona at one point. I 

~:~~can’t remember exadly when it was. 

,201 I--, Q Okav. And that’s Mona Sutphen? 

1211 A Yes.. 

I221 Q 

A 

And what is her position? 

She works -we all sort of work together as an 

I:: 1 assistant to the Ambassador. 

1251 Q Okay. And why would you have spoken to Ms. Sutph 

Page 14 to Page 19 

- 
4483 

BSA lsabelle Watkins, 5127198 XMAx(4i4) 

Page 20 

‘about the resume as opc-osed to, say, speaking directly to the 

ii in Washin ton. 

8 And did Ms. Sutphen - indicate to you where it should 

Well, she said, see if we can put it on. And I 

[251 

_icc+&tion.) [31 

[41 BY MR. BltNtK 1: 

Q What I suggest you do, it might be the easiest. if 

iz;you just -_ .- lav the three out In front of vou. because thev are 

I 7 I bhorie 

i8 igki 

rec&&f;om different source’s, a’nd so they soit of 

P 

around, and we will try to take them chronologically. 

I 9, Bu to do that we have to go from one page to the other, to 

r~s]Pentagon and Bell Atlantic. 

1201 BY MR. BIEMERT: 

Q 

~::~documents. if you look at 

So, baslcall#$i~;;er~~~y~e~ the 

[z3]generated b 

124 lof them is s x . 

your office. And the differen’ce in them is one 

owmg calls to Ms. Lewinsky’s home number and 

[zslone of them is showing calls to Ms. Lewmsky’s work number, I 

Page 22 

[llbelieve. Number 3 shorn work number; number 4 shows.horne 

12 1 number. Then Exhibit 5 is 

Rc? 

oin to show documents qbtalned 

r3$0~ the phpne company re e Ing calls from Ms. Lewinsky’s 

iENERT: As well as her home Dhone. or iust 

i76jthe pen”~~..._R~~lV;R+‘s just Pentagon. ’ . 

(81 

(91 Q Exhibit 5 is iust calls from Ms. Lewinskv’s 

! if i Pentagon ~~?&l%%:“f%&ually, it’s calls from Monica 

i 12 i Lewinsky at various numbers. _ 

1131 BY MR. BIENERT: 

0 Okay. So, it is various numbers, but that’s what 

i::ithose are. And I can indicate to you as we go through them, 

[16]Which numbers are which. I’m assurbing you are golng t0 

nize the numbers from your office, but I certainly 

~:~$ou 3 n’t expect ou to recognize the others. Oka 

1191 A ds. Althouah I think the 703 wou Y d’probably be 

7 

i%i her work number. 

(211 MR. LERNER: That’s right. 

[I21 BY MR. BIENERT: 

[231 9 _cor*ct. 

I241 A Yeah. 

1251 0 And the 202 number would typically be her residence 

Page 20 to Page 25 

Page 23 

:: number. 

- A Somewhere in the Dotrid. 

.:. Q All right. So, let’s go ahead and krnd of skimmlng 

j i over them. you’ll note the dates are on the left-hand side on 

:5. Exhibit 5. dates and times. Then on the exhibits provided by 

;; your office. 3 and 4, they are sort of in the middle. 

<- And just sort of eneralizing at first, there 

j 3 : appears to be one call on 8 ctober Zlst. I’ll put a dot by 

i9: that on Exhibit 4 as we go. Then there appear to be two 

:: I ‘calls on October 24th, and I’ll put a dot b those two. 

111 !There then appears to be approximately KY o calls on October 

[ 19 1 One of them is just a more specific to the second rendition 

[rolof the first. 

[211 A I’m sorry. You are saying it’s the same call? 

[22j Q Yes, ma’am. 

[231 A 

~24: _ AQ 

They’ve record:d it twice? 

L25i 

bs, ma am. Its listed twice here. 

Page 24 

Q That’s why I put a little bracket. So, two calls 

I: i on the 29th. Actually - 

[31 A And what does “EST” mean? Estimated? 

141 0 I’m assuming that’s Eastern Standard Time, but that 

c s 1 would be an assumption on my part. 

I61 A Oh, okay. 

Q And actual1 

Ym 

there is a third call on the 2CJth. 

iii Here we go. And then on he 30th. we have one, two, three, 

[ 9 1 four. five calls. So, maybe we’ll just focus on these first. 

Now were you aware of the fad, ma’am that the 

/:Flinterview with hs. Lewinsky occurred on October ilst? 

[I21 A Yes. 

Q 

[ :: i are focusing on the calls prior to the interview. All right. 

Okay. So, in essence, what we are doin! now is 

[I51 A All ri ht. Yes. 

0 So ? et’s start first with the call which would be 

::761on Exhibit 4, which is an October 21st call from hone number 

[I 8 1 at your office that has the extension 440+, to 20 g 985-8355, 

[lglwhich I’ll represent to you is Monica Lewmsky’s home phone. 

[2olAnd that was a 5-minute and 42-second call. And looking at 

[zllour calendar, that was on Tuesday, October 21st. the same 

[zzlthat the resume was received. 

day 

Based on that first of all do you recognize the 

!z:iphone number with the &tension &04 from your office? 

[251 A Yes. I certainly recognize the phone. 

3 

‘we 

Page 25 

[II Q 

[21 A 

Whose phone is that? 

That’s one that the Ambassador and I use. 

Q Okay. And when you say ou and the Ambassador us 

i:iit where are the phones that have this e 

[ 51 t&ms of your office versus his office? 

J ension . located, in 

[61 A 

Q 

Mine are - it’s right on my desk. 

ii;different lines on it. 

SO,JOU have a phone on your desk that has how many 

191 A It has at least four or five lines. But the 

[ i o j principal lines that I have are 04 and 02. 

Q Is there any distinction in which ones you use for 

1:: iO4 and which one you use for 02 the of calls? 

Cl31 A There isn’t as far As, as “p” m concerned. 

1141 Q 

i151 

Okay. So, you use those two interchangeably? 

A I do: - 

Q All right. What about inside the Ambassadoh 

::76;office? What phone lines if any does he have? 

[la1 A 04 is at hi; desk, ‘and 02 and 04 are at the sofa. 

Q So at the desk where he works he has 04. 

i:ilthen he has a sepirate spot in his office with ahother phone 

And 

(21lthat has bgth O;zid 04? 

I221 

:::I keeping 

Q 

in 

All right. So now, on the 21st of October, kind of 

mind the various things we’ve talked about, the 

[ 2 5 1 timing, the time the resume came, do you know if you made a 

OlC-stati 
4484 

BSA lsabelle Watkins, S/27/98 XMAxiYS) 

Page 26 

: call to Monica Lewinsky for five minutes and 42 seconds on 

.I that day? 

$ ;;;,I back up one second7 

j 5 A Are there any calls on these other lists? 

‘6‘ Q Not for the 21 st, and you can skim them over. We 

- :don’t have any calls on the 21 st or prior to that that appear 

i 5 to be between your office and Ms. Lewinsky. at least her 

i phones. _ i. -. A So, what you are saying, according to these 

: ? f : records, the first call that I made to her was at 7 o clock 

: :: : on the nrght of the 21 st? 

i 1: i Q Well, I’m not saying who made the call, because -- 

i>J. 

[15’ 

ile;but - 

Aa ‘i_v”tt, obvrouslv ! -- that’s what we’re askinq __ YOU about, 

(i7] A Well, it has to be me. 

Q What I’m saying is that, based on the records that 

i : ‘, 1 we have. the first record that we see - 

i2oi 

i2lJ Aa Uh-huh. - largely based on records provided by 

[ 22 i and supplemented by records that we’ve gotten from ot 

our office 

6 er 

I 2 3 I sources. that shows a call between a phone we know qoes to 

i 5 4 j 

t2 5 1 3 

our office or a phone we know goes to Ms. Lewinsky is on the 

1 st. And that’s a 5-minute and 42-second call. 

Page 27 

A All right. And ma 

I:; I got when the resume was sen 

I see a ain the exhibit of when 

r31that? 

Y to our o % ce. the timing on 

t41 Q Yes. 

151 MR. LERNER: I think it was 3 o’clock. 

THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, it may well be that the 

I: j first time I tried to set an appointment was at 7 o’clock at 

[ 8 1 night. And then the fact that I called her residence at 

rs~seven at niaht mav well have been because I thouaht that’s 

; ii iwhere she would be at 7 o’clock at night. 

RY MR RIFNFRT. 

,AAJ _. ._.... -.-..- . . 

:121 Q 

:131 A 

Do you typically work until seven? 

Q 

I normall work until 7:30 or eight. 

Okay. Ny ow, first of all, this is a Sminute and 

’ ::;42-second call. So, what would you have spoken about with 

i 16 1 Ms. Lewinsky? 

A I don’t think I spoke that long with her. So, what 

I :i ; I what I would assume 

t19ltag. So 

- I’m not, I don’t like telephone 

* 9 enerally what I t to do is, if I’m on a call and tzojl need to ake another call, r WIII . put people on hold, or 

t~jl’m happy to stay on hoM while someone is cornin 

8 

to the 

1221 

P 

hone and that sort of thing. So. my guess is we rdn’t talk 

t 23 1 or the whole five minutes. But I have no doubt that, you 

~21 I knew, if that’s what the call shows, that it was a !S-mmute 

rzsltime that the phone was tied up. 

Page 28 

at out that she could do it because 

t19j I’m always - I t to be sens;tive. I think of myself as a 

~201 

(211 P hough they are looking for a job, I t 

ublic servant. % o, when I talk with someone like this, even 

to accommodate their 

t22Ischedute as well as the Ambassado 7 s. And so I was trying to 

t:3lfigure a time that would work where she didn’t have to leave 

[24 lwork. I was looking at either early in the day, lunchtime, 

[ 25 1 or later in the day, whatever, you know, woutd work with her 

c : : schedule. 

Page 29 

So, I’m sure that I came up with some time that I 

’ i i think I put down at least tentatively on the schedule. 

Q Oka 

i: 1 available possible dy 

Other than your telling Ms. Lewinsky 

.i; recall her sayin ? 

ates for the Ambassador, what do you 

I71 

isjwas it. 

A 3 ust whether or not the times would work and that 

‘31 

[i8~;work? 

Q And your recollection is she said the times would 

[l?l A Yes. 

II?1 Q Because what I’m really trying to bracket down IS, 

[ 13; what would account for the length of the call. 

[I41 A I don’t know the answer to that. 

Q As you sit here now is it accurate that you feel 

i : z i confident that you didn’t speak to her for five minutes? 

Cl71 A I really don’t think I talked with her for five 

118 lminutes because I don’t remember anything that we would have 

[ 19 1 talked about for that length of time. 

t201 The only other possible thing I can think of that 

t 2 11 we might have discussed was if she was interested in comi 

[z 1 to New York to meet with the Ambassador. People frequen 

tz3lsuggest that when they are wanting to get together with the 

‘;;: 

rrc]Ambassador. I usually don? advise people to t to come to 

[z s 1 New York, because it’s just as - there’s as muc x chance of 

Page 30 

[I 1 the meeting being cancelled in New York as there is in 

tz]Washin 

a 

ton. So, I try to discoura e people from s ending the 

t3;mn;ey o come up on the shuttle ? o be Interview ecfin New 

L .A -..-. 

151 0 How sure are you that you were the person who even 

I 6 I . would have made that call on that date? 

A Well I mean ma be someone else in the oftice mad 

Il1 the call. It wasn’t the Ambassa J ” 

[ 91 it would have been me. 

or rf rt wasn’t me. I mean, 

Q Oka 

i :? i Ambassador, how J 

Well, first when you say it wasn’t the 

o you know? 

(121 A 

[13lcallS. 

Because he just doesn’t, he doesn’t place his own 

(141 BY MR. LERNER: 

Q Does it ever happen that 

I:zito someone, and then 

P 

atch through to t ): 

ou place the call, talk 

e Ambassador? 

A I do tha on occasion. I did -at some point I 

I:i;patched her through to Mona because we were trying to w&k 

119 1 out Mona actually meeting with her and taking her to meet 

tzojwith the Ambassador. That could well be what ha 

Rpe 

nedwith 

t211this as well. I could have transferred it through to ona. 

Q 

I::ithe Arnbassadofl 

CouM it have been that you patched it through to 

t241 A No. 

1251 Q You are absolutely certain about that? 

rii 

Page 31 

A “h-huh. 

i2j 

i :; her. 

2 ~&~~e~here was no reason far him to talk with 

There was no. there was no interest on his part, and 

r:;zXfKiI?eople 

- I mean, his time is just too tight for us 

Q If there was no interest-well let me ste back 

/z;for a little bit. Between receiving the resume’at 3:09 an s 

[ 91 placing this phone call, you never talked to the Ambassador 

[ 1 o I about receiving this resume? 

illi A -No. 

Q But nonetheless you arran 

i::iwithout having talked to the Ambassado R 

ed to set up an interview 

1141 A iisj Well. he had told me that he would meet with the 

[ICI r he caveat with him. if there’s a time that works. And so, 

rson tf we could find a convenient time, and that’s always 

[ 17 1 as I recall this parbcular a 

[ 18 1 least two, or three times. Al 

pcintrnent, I think I set it at 

nd I know the morning it occurred 

[I 9 1 Imoved rt a couple of times. And if it had eventually 

t20jfallen off on that date, that wouldn’t have surprised me 

[zll either. I mean, it’s the kind of thing that happens with his 

[ 22 I schedule. 

I:: 1 to 

9 

Our priorities at that point werezetting him ready 

[ 2 5 1 ins 

o on the trip on the first ins ante. An In the second 

ante, was, we were working on fast track on the Hill. 

-. 

olcstaif 

- ~~_. ~~~ ~~ 

Page 26 to Page 31 
4435 

lsabelle Watkins, 5127198 xMAx:csi 

Page 32 Page 35 

Q And, I’m sorry, tell me again. Is it accurate then 

z ‘that you have a recollection of at least one call that you 

- : would have made and spoken to MS Lewinsky, but then also had 

: F, Ms. Sutphr tal,k to her afler that In ?he same call? 

-, 1 

:fj.Mona. 

I m, I’m reasonably sure I transferred the call to 

:1:: Q 

::_, A 

And why would you transfer the call to Mona? 

Mona was oing to be with the Ambassador. 

: : ; : my understanding. And I 8 

That was 

ad said - I’m always a httle 

: : : nervous about these youn women who have to come, if they are 

: ; 5 j oin 

: : 6: ? 9 

to meet with the Am % assador. in his suite at the hotel. 

don t want them to feel nervous in any way about that., I 

: 1~ ;want them to be sure that everything will be conducted in a 

i i 3 ; businesslike way. And so I was haven Mona meet her at the 

y 19: desk and take her to the room. And I 8 t them make those 

izolarrangements once I had talked with Mona about It. 

Q Okay. So, in other words, you kind of set up the 

if i igeneral time of the meeting, but then Mona would talk to her 

I z 3 1 a little bit more about the specifics of how it would be done 

; 2 I : at that timi? 

I-251 

1sY;t.t - 

: 11 anywhere that I -- It may well have been that I told her rn 

: i this that I would have to confirm with her. that we weren’t 

31 oln 

w a 

to be able to do It unless I called h&r back. I mean, 

.J I at appens. too. I sa 

5 I schedule somethIng 

to peo le, you know, I may try to 

t O; possible. 

be f ore he P eaves, but it may not be 

:Tl Q What -- 

;9j A So, that’s the only explanation I can see if 

2; there’s not a call that I made to say it wasn’t going to 

i o 1 work. 

:111 Q Do you believe that if you scheduled a meetrng Nlth 

I z 1 Ms. Lewinsky - strike that. 

Do you believe that if you talked to Ms. Lewinsky 

i 1: 1 on the 21 st about scheduling a time for her interview that 

j ISI ou might have set it u for perha s the 29th or 3Oth, after 

: I 6 1 K e was returning from P he Congo. T 

A 

i :z jcon.ecture. 

I - it’s certainly possible. I mean, that’s 

! 

I really don’t - I just - I have a feeling 

119 1 tha I may have tned to do it first in Washington before he 

[ 20 1 left. I can’t remepber now what time of day BIII left. And 

i21lso I, you kgw,ht;wre_ally hard for me to know. 

i221 

(231 A I know that I moved, I know that I moved the 

[ 24 1 meeting when it actually occurred at least a couple of times 

! 15 1 so I could get it earlier. And I kept thinking she was going 

_-..___ __ 

Page 33 Page 36 

:I] 

AQ 

a fair assessment? 

lnormally - it’s not a general time. It’s a 

i: i speck time, because he’s scheduled fair1 

Q All right. Now, the next cal ry 

tightly. 

t: i- I’ll just sort of check things off. 

that we see would be 

I’ll put a little 

! 6; mark next to the ones that we’ve been through, so we know 

[7 1 that we don’t have to cover them again. 

The next call that I see at least chronologically, 

oing to be over here on Exhibh 3. It’s goin to be a 

on October 24th at 2:09 in the afternoon. 

Friday, th!%! ‘i,“d 

Which I believe you told us is one of the other - 

Right, that’s one of mine. 

- numbers at 

[ :7”1 in the afte%on for 30 secon rK 

our desk. And that call is at 2:09 

s. W&t do you believe, if 

[ 18 1 anything, was ha 

A I t/Ink I was 

pening in Jt!p 

;::;I think, that1 w?? calling. _ 

Calt? 

_.,.. tg. That’s the Pentagon number, 

I211 

1221 

1231 

yes. INS a-umber - 

8 Ri$ t. 

her office. 

et X$$onds. my assumption is that I called and 

.--_ 

t3eft word titat I 

Page 34 

:171 A 

Q 

I m’ ht have tried to do something on the 22nd. 

An&hen is it your recollection that something 

I :i i happened after that to make you have to change the time? 

t:y;at all. 

A Yes. I think he was - he didn’t go to Washington 

i:: t Lewinsk 

Q How is it that you would have conveyed to Ms. 

iz4ion that J 

that the meeting for the 22nd was not going to occur 

ate? 

!25! A I don’t know if there’s not a call in there 

Page 32 to Page 37 

No, the time of day on Friday. 

[51 Q I’ve ot you. 

A I thin R we started at like 8:30 or 9 and it 

~~~finally was 7:30. And I fully expected her to say ihat 7:30 

18 1 is too earl 

[sIthat was I. .r* 

and she didn’t. So, she got five minutes and 

[IO] Q Okay. Now, the next call that we see was on the 

: 1~127th. Act,ually, let me just double-check and make sure we 

i;:;are coven,g eveThing. 

n the 7th, we see two calls. If we look at the 

: 14 1 record, there is one call a :15 from your office, and 

[15~spedical~ extqnsionato Ms. Lewinsky’s home phT. 

[ IslAnd then here IS a second @I at 5% from Ms. Lewtns s 

! t; 1 F’z,pJ$gon number to extension 0 Do you see those o 

IA.,,_.._. 

What I’m goin to do is I’ll put a line next to the 

f:i;one on Exhibit 5 and a B me on the one next to Exhibit 4. 

r2iioO .--. vou _ see the& ma’am? 

I221 A Yds. 

Q So what these records reflect 

i::iaftemoon a call to; 36 seconds from 

r251Lewinsky’s home phone, followed by 

Page 37 

f 11 call - let me get the ht time here. This was on the 

[2127th. a l-minute and ? 5-second call from Ms. Lewinsky’s work 

[ 3 1 phone to your extension. 

(41 A Okay. 

[51 Q Do you believe that you would have been the penon 

[ 6 lwho was involved rn those two calls? 

I71 A Yes. I think so. 

[81 Q 

[ 9 1 see extension 

F’ t of all, why do you believe that? When you 

who else in the office would use that 

rlolextension? & 

illi A 

I121 

1131w 

Q 

No one uses my phone extension but me. 

Well, I thought you had two extensions, _ ard 

1141 A I actually have more than that. but I have those 

ilsjtwo. yes. 

I161 Q Well, why do you call that one, you just used the 

117 lwords “my phone”, or “my extension”. Why do you call that 

I I 8 1 your extension? 

!191 A That’s the direct line at my desk. l and mare 

izojdirect lines at m desk. 

Q 

IZloffice. correct? 

2nd that phone is also in Ambassador Richards&s 

.~~. 

[231 A- Right. 

1241 Q So, isn’t it his 

I251 A Yes. 1 think al P 

hone, too? 

of the oft& is his. 

OlCStarY 

- 
4486 

lsabelle Watkins, 5/27/98 Xh4AX(717) 

Page 38 

[:. receiving the call? 

‘i. 

ii’ 

A Well. !n some instances you would say that might be 

! - P 

ossible. However. you gave me a calendar that shows he’s In 

he Congo at that point. 

I_ Q 

A 

I’m .ust asking - 

So, ‘1 don’t think the 27th it was his call. 

;:‘..eofcallindgthz!lire.~yourline. Andletmhjust 

Q I uess wh I’m trying to ptn down ma’am. is your 

i ; z : back up an prefa& it WI h this: If we look at the 

[ 13ldocuments that were provided b 

-x 

your office to us,,and if you 

[ 14 :look at these extensions, you WI notice that the pnntout 

[ i 5; your office gave us ass a name to each extension. And, 

1 i 6! rf you look, you WIII see 

I I 7 ; had lsabelle Watkins. 

& has William Richardson; _ 

il3i 

Do you see that? 

A I do. - 

I191 Q Do you know why it is that there are names assigned 

~20110 those extensions? 

A 

IZiit. I must tell 

That’s, I mean, that’s the way the office looks at 

u that his card has l on it 

& 

So, it 

[ 2 3 1 doesn’t have So, as far as - he doesn’t 

(74 :calls. He reallv doesn’t. And so I do them a P ternately. 

lace his own 

i;;i%ally do. So.’ 

Page 39 Page 42 

Cl1 Q Okay. And, again, the reason I ask is because the 

~2 Irecord at least that we were grven b 

[3]as your ph;ne.;pzIip just referre J 

your office shows __ 

to It as your phone. 

Page 40 I 

[II 

2 

I 

S%%e may have gotten a voice mail or a message, / 

I:ior whatever, be&use this one was only 38 seconds again. So, 

[ 4 1 I’m assuming that means I left word probably. 

I 

Q 

Iz:Lewinskv had a VOIOZ mail or an answering machine at her home 

Do you have a recollection as to whether or not Ms. j 

1 

And then do you believe that this would have been a 

Page 41 

:: reschedulin of a meeting or this would have been the initial 

1. scheduling 2 

A 

,; USUN 

I think I rescheduled. We don’t have computers at 

I know that’s hard to believe, but we have word 

= processon. So, what happens is when I move a document, name 

i. and an appointment. it’s -- the first one IS gone, and then 

- ‘you have the new place. So, I can’t go back and reconstruct 

: 3 -what happened on the, on the first meeting. 

.i 

: . 

Q Okay. 

.-- A 

Q 

It’s one of my frustrations. 

All right. 

: i been discuAsedN$th Ms. 

Anythin 

Lewins & 

else that you thin! mi$ht have 

y in that conversabon. 

I-?- .*- 

!:4: Q As 

[ 15 j the condusion of t ): 

ou sit here now, do you know whether or not at 

at conversation you had agreed with Ms. 

i I 6; Lewinsky that her interview would be at any particular time 

!;-:and place? 

fla‘l 

i191 

A I don’t remember that. 

Q All right. Meaning 

[zojare not saying it didn’t happen tha r 

ou don’t recall at al!; you 

rzl;know? 

way? You just don t 

(22: A I real1 

Q All rig K 

don’t remember. I really don’t remember. 

1. Now, the next batch of calls are going 

i::ito be- I believe four calls that occurred on the 29th of 

rzsiOctober. which’. if we look at the calendar, the 29th was 

Followed by another call at - let me make sure I 

[ :ii have the order right - at 1:50 that day, the third call that 

[ 1: jday, from the phone with your extensron number or your name 

rl3~assgned to it, to Ms. Lewlnsky’s office number. 

I141 A For another 30 seconds. 

Q For another 30 seconds. Followed by number four 

I:z;foor that day, which is going to be, it looks like a 58-second 

[171call. if I have it ri ht. 

1181 BY Ml?. LERNER: 

Q It looks like you may have played phone tag, 

I:i{despite your best wishes. 

;::;tight 

A Despite the fact I don’t like phone tag. That’s 

1231 BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q That’s what I was going to ask you about. First of 

i::;all, this is phone tag, it looks like, correct? 

Page 43 

[II A Yes. 

Q 

i:ito avoid phone tag 

All r$hh’. Now, first of all, when you say you try 

ow do you avoid enga in in phone tag 

(4 Iwhen you need to leave messa es for 

A 

op 

izithere and I by to call at the time that they say the 

Well I try to establish &n !%$ne’s going to be 

will 

[71be available. I. I make a concerted effort to. An then I 

[s]dOn’t have voice mail myself. I don’t have it for the 

[s]Ambassador and I don’t have it for myself. And I ask that 

~101peop le take messages or. if I’m there, that they ask people 

[ 1 I 1 o hold so that I can talk with them. 

Q So now on this occasion, for example, there are two 

~::~calls from Ms. Lewinsky’s number to yours, at least one of 

rl4lwhich was short and seems, based on the pattern. would you 

rlslagree, to be in the midst of messages back and forth? 

A I think it sounds as d she may have called me bade 

!:76iand I wasn’t available. 

Q 

I : “, ; not available? 

Who is it who would answer your phone when you’re 

A 

I:i;the phones. 

Debbie Nelson or Fiona Higgins were both answering 

Q Now if we look at the fourth call on that day, 

I::iwhich would be a &second call at 1:53. first of all. do 

x 

ou 

[24 1 believe that you were the person who made the two ca s that ’ 

(2 5 1 came from your office to Ms. Lewinsky’s number? 

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4487 

BSA lsabelle Watkins, 5127198 XMAX(b7. 

Page 44 

,.i A Yes I ,would assume that was me. 

/?’ /-. Q And why do you assume that that was you? 

ii. 

I J : the Penta 

Because It is the ~lling and I was calling 

:5- 

[ ; ‘that call for the Am 

i7i A No. 

iii 

Q Why not? 

A Because I was workin on getting an appointment 

i I O: wrth her. And as of thus time, I don’t t %. Ink we had anything 

(11;set. 

Q Now as far as the calls that came back and 

articularly focusing’ I guess on the fourth call, which would 

ave been a %-second call, do you believe that you spoke to 

tlsjherthatda ? 

x Well I think it was more than that. I think it’s 

i :t 1 a minute and 56 seconds if I understand 

118 1 You’ve got a minute there’ and you’ve got 

our bracket. 

f 

’ 

6 seconds there. 

Q Actually. as I understand these, and again this is 

I:i;just in looking at them. I’m not going to necessarily 

t.z11 represent its totally accurate, but I would submit to you 

tzzlthat the best reading of these is the first number simpl 

t231rounds off to the nearest minute. But the second num kr, 

(24 lwhich reflects the same call, is more accurate because it 

f2s~actually goes to the second. 

Page 45 

[II 

[Zl 

So, for example, in this particutar call - 

I31 

Aa Oh, I see what,you re sayng. 

trIbecause - 

- the first one IS sayrng It was a minute call *- 

151 A I donY add them. I ‘ust - 

Q Right. What I can 1’ ell you I have done for 

!76l]purposes of reviewing these is just focusing on the second 

t6 1 number which seems to car ’ 

[ 91 opposed to the minute. So.. r or purposes of this 

things down to the second, as 

t~o~conversation, we’ll say that it was a SE-second call. 

[Ill Do 

[ 12 llewinsky on !I 

ou believe that you would have spoken to Ms. 

t at occasion? 

A I have really - you know I have no idea. 

i::iknow if she was, you know available. I’don’t know if she 

I don’t 

tlsjwas in the ofhce. I could h&e you know, held and then 

[is]spoken to a voice mail again. 1 don’t know. 

0 Okay. Now first of all. let me ask you a 

i:i;question back on the whose-phones-are-whose issue. 9 

eneral 

tlsjtoid us, I believe, that you use mandll 

ou’ve 

tzolinterchangeabty. Is that accurate? 

A 

Ii: i response.) 

&VII nodded indicating an affirmative 

t231 Q You have to speak out loud. 

1241 A Yes. Yes. Sorry. 

t251 Q And you’ve told us that one of those phones isn’t 

Page 46 Page 49 

tljwith paflicularity assigned to the Ambassador, that from your 

tzjstandpornt he uses them interchangeably? 

I:; his desk. 

A I place calls for him on the 04 if be is sitting at 

I place it on 02 if he is sitting at the sofa. 

tsjAnd it totally depends on where he is at the time that I 

[ 6]phe the call. 

(71 Q And I guess the question I have is, if we count up 

[ 8 1 the calls, we have now reviewed eight calls. Of the e’ 

ts~one of them occurred on the 21st, a day when the Am 

ht. 

‘% assador 

[lo]was resent, and seven of them ocarrred between the 23rd and 

[ 11 Ithe 2p 

t121 

9th wp t$&pmbassador was out of the country. 

Q And there is a direct correlation in terms of the 

i::ione call that is on the -extension is at the one time 

tlslwhen the 

t16jon the rp 

mbassador was present, and the seven calls that are 

extension happen to be at the time when the 

117 1 Ambassador was gone. 

IIS1 And I would submit to you, is there an 

rls~would that be, if the phone calls were being ma J 

- why 

e 

tzo jinterchangeabl 

I211 A Lost of the time I use the 02 extension. 

on the two? Is there any reason for that? 

t27.1 (1 _$hat wqutd prompt you to use the p-extension? 

a call for the Ambassador and he is 

I 

1 nere might well be someone Is on OZ. someone woul d 

line. And so I would use the 04 instead. 

Is there any reason why you woukl use the 04 line 

[ 19 1 exceptions to that; is that fair? 

A Oh, yes. There are, there can be exceptions. For 

/z;iexample, I will call someone and not - I’ll have them on 

; ;; ; ~~z~y:~;k~~~~~~~~~~h~ $tg$g. ,@! I 

[z4 Iwith the’m. And I he does, 1’11 have to transfer 1’11 

~26 1 transfer them to () because that’s where he’s’sitting. 

Page 47 

‘. _ __ stnke that 

Would you ever use the a line for a call that 

1 ‘wasn’t going to be pate h e 

4 :a lrne was avarIable 

2 through to the Ambassador if the 

: _ ^i 

2 lm&t very well. 

-, A Because I hR It as the line I wanted to use. 

3, lnrtrally It was my - at one pornt in our ofhce. and I 

z.can’t remember the date R changed, the default line,_ if you 

~ : I: know what I mean - when you pick up your pho 

: : I 1 automatically goes to a line - for me used to be @.‘knd I 

: : 2 :don’t know whether that than ed in Au ust or September It 

r I 3 !was sometime in the fall that P change 8 

::41 Q 

1 I 5 1 mid-October? 

Do you believe that it-would have been changed cy 

A 

i is i could be wrong. 

I would have thought it had changed by then, bti I 

!I!?] Q Is it accurate. ma’am - 

1191 A 

rzoisavina. 

So, I was qude used to using* is what I’m 

i;lj ’ - Q Is it accurate. ma’am. that once that default had 

[ 22 1 been changed that at feast your intention was to use l for 

~231 our calls, and 04 for calls being made for the Ambassador? 

(24 1 f hat that was your general practice as of that time? 

I261 A I. I. I think that’s characterizing it more 

Page 48 

I221 Q When? 

A Whenever I feel tike it. I make a huge number of 

I::;tele hone calls. I mean, it’s hard - unless you’re in the 

125) km .8 of job . that I am, it’s bard to realbe. I know you 

- 

Page 44 to Page 49 -oIc%arr 
Page 50 

extension to Ms. Lewinsky’s 

[ 151 number. DAM YO;~~ that, ma’am? 

[16i 

1: i i before the 

Q Okay. Now, these calls would have been on the day 

interview correct? 

1191 A Yes. ’ That would be correct. 

Q 

I:y; town, correct? 

And this is at a time when the Ambassador was in 

I221 A Yes. The Ambassador was there. 

Q Do you believe that you were personally involved in 

I::italking to Ms. Lewinsky in any of these calls? 

(251 A I would assume that all of those calls were for me. 

Page 51 

0 

1: {those calls? 

Okay. And what do you believe was occurring during 

A I was in the process of trying to set up the - 

I:;what was happening on Friday morning, and I was talking with 

[ 5 1 the Hill at the same time, setttng meebngs with Members. 

And I well remember when I moved it to the 7:30 

176ionty because the Congressman’s office had called and said the 

[ 8 1 Congressman can meet with the Ambassador if he can be here at 

t9]8:30; he has a committee or something at nine, but he can 

I 1 o I meet with the Ambassador if he can be here at 8:30. 

ack and forth a 

Page 52 

I 1 ~an idea that we might be looking for someone to replace Gina, 

f2]who was our, the 

Q . Oii 

rson who was working in Washington. 

you ave n understandin at that time, when 

I:iyou were ;ttra u,all,these h 

[ 5 J interview with 

f_ &ingto setupghe 

s. 

[ 61 interviewin 

ewnsky. whether Ms. Lewinsk was 

for a position in Washington or New Yy ork? 

No I didn’t at all. I sort of assumed because 

Iiishe was working in Washington and that we had an off& 

[s]there, that she was appl ing for the Washington, you know, 

tlo]for a position in the Was K. rngton office. 

Q Were there any openin s to 

i::javailable in the New York office at tha a.1 bme. 7v 

our knowledge, 

A I think there may well have been some in the public 

I iii relations area in our press oftice. 

Q And is that actually in the same area where you 

I:il]are, or is that sort of another - 

I171 It’s a different - 

I181 

% 

A 

- department or section? 

i:Ziflo-or. 

It’s a different floor. Press is on the second 

Q Were you aware of any openings in kind of your 

I:: I suite, or at )east in the section where you worked in the New 

[23]YOrk offkce? 

!z:;believe. 

A There weren’t any openings in our area, I don’t 

XMAX(S/S) 

Page 53 

Ii! Q All right Now, the interview occurred on the 31st 

i: : in the mornrno. correct? 

!jl A- Yes, at 7 30 

[aI Q 

! 5 i correct? 

And you had no particrpation in the interview. 

i6i A I did not 

!‘! Q Did you have any involvement with Ms. Lewinsky 

c J 1 after the interview? 

13: A No 

!iOi Q 

I 111 the interview? 

Did you make any phone calls to Ms. Lewinsky after 

il?] A 

1131 Q 

I don’t recall making any phone calls. 

Can 

Fx 

ou thank of an 

I I 4 ! any phoneAcallsNF. s. Lewlnsky a x 

reason why you would have ma 

er the rntervrew? 

I151 

[I61 Q 

[ 17 I about Ms. 

Do you recall having any discussions with anyone 

Lewinsk 

I 18 ] forget about after t i 

- and for purposes of the question, 

e 

[ 191 relationshi 

news broke about the a!le ed 

rzolbetween 

8 and thin # s in Janua .x--but lets]us?sar 

ctober, w en you finIs ed these calls on 

rr11So. lets sa 

he 30th. 

1221December 2; 

from October 31st through the end of the year, 

lst, do you remember having any discusstons w&h 

I 2 3 J anyone about Ms. Lewinsky? 

(241 - A I had a discussion with Mona about Gina’s position 

rzs]and what was happening on that. 

Page 54 

A No I really - I only remember the conversation. 

:::;I don? remember ihe the timing of it at all. 

t211 Q 

A 

Even a ballpark estimate? 

No. The on 

$:i handle woukl be if I knew a $ 

way that I would real have a better 

ut when Regina left, 

t241wer-e in the process of, you know, gearing u 

!eca 

to say gsyr 

f25] to her as it were. And I probably - that mg .I! t have 

Page 55 

I 11 prompted me to worry about the replacement. 

Q 

::;a couple of other calls. But. based on w 

Okay. Now, I’m gotng to 

f? 

0 ahead and direct you to 

[ 4 ]ma 

ts]tha r 

at you’ve said you 

not know anything about them but we want to make sure 

we have at least covered them. 

I61 If you 

[ 7 1 would be on 

look at the next call chronologically, it 

- actually we covered the twelfth call, too, 

[ 8 1 which would be 1 O-30. 

[91call. 

So, now, we are up to the thirteenth 

If you look at Exhibit 3 there is a call on 

i:i;November 3rd which I’ll direct ou on the ma 

[12]was a Monday. In fact, it woul 4I fvlpV 

November 3rd 

be the first 

t13]Fnday the 31st, which was the da 

onday after 

[14 Ithere s the weekend of the 1st an i 

of the interview. Then 

2nd and then the 3rd is 

[I 5 J the first Monday after the interview. And there is a - let 

[ 16 ] me see where It is here.< 

On Exhibit 3, there is a 2-minute and 54-second 

~:~~call from the 

1191 Rrchardson. to 

xtenston. with the assigned name Wtlliam 

tzo]anythrng aboxcall? 

s. Lewmsky’s Pentagon number. Do you know 

I211 A I don’t. 

I221 Q Do you believe that you were the person $ho was 

[23]speaking to Ms. Lewinsky on that call? 

t241 A I, I don’t recall the call at all. I really have 

t25]no memory of that. 

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4489 

BSA lsabelle Watkins, 5127198 XMAX(lOIl0) 

Page 56 

A-am can 

ii j have been?qeazng bith d 

ou think of any reason.why you would 

s Lewinsky, after she mtervtewed 

j,with the Ambassaoor and Ms. Sutphen, on the telephone? 

A Fio Rebecca was m that meeting. too. And so, you 

;iiknow. I, I was. I real1 wasn’t involved. 

:&I BY MR L!?RNER: 

‘7; Q 

;31 A 

/$$tybecca is Rebecca Cooper? 

!91 Q A?d she works here in D.C.? 

:01 A She was, she was the Washington chief of staff, 

: i 11 yes. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Page 57 Page 60 

III Q Oka. 

(21 MR. BIEJERT: Let’s take a Sminute break. 

(Whereupon, the deposition was recessed from 11:22 a.m. 

i:iuntil 11:32 a.m. 

(51 BY M k _ BIENERT: 

Q Now ma’am let’s go back to the_.extension. I: iYou've indicated to ;.s that ;ou would use that extension. 

r~lAmbassador Richardson would sometimes use that extension. 

[I 1 document here anyway, November 5th in the wee hours of the 

rzlmoming; so, the night of the 4th-5th. 

1: i a da 

The issue I raised to you about timing maybe being 

off relates to the documents that were comin from the 

[s 1 Far I! ast to the East Coast. which would be the bo t? om 

[ 6 Idocument, because it would have to account for the change in 

[ 7 1 time from the Far East to East Coast. 

What I can tell you, having said all that, is I 

It 1 would submit it is a non-issue to the degree that the only 

(lolarea I’m goin to ask ou about is oing to be the bracketed 

[ 111 portion onrtibit lW-&. which rela ? es to an e-mail early in 

c 12 1 he momin on November 5th of 1997. Okay? 

1131 And this is an e-mail from where to where? 

1141 0 From Monica Lewinsky in Washington, or in the 

[ 151 Washington area, to a person named CA. Davis in Japan. 

A And was this, is this something at - is this an 

;:76ie-fnail from the Pentagon? 

Q 

I :i 1 her residence. 

I’m not sure if it was from the Pentagon or from 

Yeah, they’re actually secretaries who work out in, 

Page 56 

They have, they have 

that on occasion these 

e Ambassador! 

Ill1 A YeS. 

Q Now in terms of the call of the 3rd that we were 

I::jdiscussing, let’s n&k lW-6. 

(141 (Grand Jury Exhibit IW-6 was 

I151 marked for identification.) 

BY MR BIENERT: 

Page 59 

: attention to lW-6, which has a date of November 5th on it at 

1 2 a m. vn the mommg. which could be November 4th. But, In 

.y anv event. It IS the nloht of. I auess. the 4th-5th. at least 

.: based on that date. - - 

J And I would ask that 

: ; 7 

ou would read the paragraph 

-. 

that I haveAbracketed to yourse f. 

: 4 whole thm 

Okay. Can I -- I would really like to read the 

because I’ve never seen this before. 

? 

!:o: 

You can read the whole thing. 

I mean, is that all right? 

;::: Q Absolutely. Why don’t you read the whole thmg, 

1: 2 : and obviously the part I’m going to ask you about is the 

reviewed the document.) 

r?slone? 

is an earlier - is this a response to this 

Q Well, ma’am. I’m not going to characterize them. 

iii ~YOU can read them and draw your own conclusions. 

I191 A Okay. 

Q I agree with you, that the date does appear that it 

[:iiwas earlier. And just to make a clarification I’m 

122lrealizi 

I z 3 1 submrt ? o you that t 

that the’to R e-mail since it was send - I would .v. 

e dating Issue and the timing issue is 

c 74 1 accumte on the top e-mail because it was sent on East Coast 

[z51time, where we are. So, it would have been, based on the 

izoj A Oh, okay. 

Q But HI submit to you it’s a document obtained 

i::iduring the~es$$.kk, okay? 

(231 

Q Now, l&s focus on this bracketed para 

I:: ; ma’am. if we use the date of November 5th, or the nig t! 

raph. 

t of 

Now, 

Page 61 

I I I the 4th and 5th. based on our calendar, that would be the 

[31 

[z]zhf of T;sday the 4th. or more spcal$,at 5 a.m. on 

ednesda , ‘h”U;thh;hIo you see t at the 5 was a Wednesday? 

141 

Q All-right. The first line of this second paragraph 

~~~says, 7he job thing on Friday went much better than 

[7]expected: 

ls it accurate. ma’am that using the 5th on the 

tiicalendar. the last Friday before that would have been Friday, 

110 1 October 31 st? 

[Ill A That’s true. yes. 

[=I Q And that’s the date of the interview with 

rl3lArnbassador Richardson, correct? 

;::;31st. 

A Ambassador Richardson interviewed Monica on the 

I161 Q Friday, the 31 st, correct? 

[I71 A Yes. 

Q And if you look at the third sentence here, it 

i :89;says, ‘Richardson is a great guy and I met two women who work 

12olfor him. also very cool. 

What was your understanding of who the persons were 

i::iwho met with Ms. Lewinsk ? 

A. As I unders r and ti ..rt was Ambassador Richardson, 

I::iMona Sutphen. and Rebecca Cobper. 

1251 Q So, your understanding was that Ambassador 

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4490 

BSA lsabelle Watkins, 5127198 XMAX(ltl1) 

Page 62 Page 65 

c ; ‘Richardson met wfi!~ her along with two women who worked for 

[: ; him, correct? 

: 51 A Righk + those, those two women. 

,< / 0 Now rf 

: 1 j-- which would be tte dy 

ou look at the next sentence, “Yesterday” 

ay before the night of the 4th-5th. so 

r 6 November 3rd -- “Richardson called me at work and told me 

i_ ;they were goin to offer me a posrtion. They didn’t know 

c e 1 what yet, and t z ey wanted to talk with me further.” 

rgi Do you see ?hat. ma’am? 

1’ A I have no Idea. 

‘- 1 Q You wouldn’t have been speaking to Monica Lewinsk 

‘3:on November 14th. would you? 

‘3: A I don’t. I don’t think I ever spoke with her afler 

5’the appointment. 

‘61 Q Meanin after October - 

'-1 A The31s. 9 

0 Okay. Do you have any recollection of Ambassador 

! “, j Richardson or an 

Y 

one else asking 

I 3; Lewinsky r thko4th of November I: 

ou to place a call to Ms. 

!:I 

12) Q 

: 3 1 November 

The next call we o to is on Exhibit 4, which is on 

19th. There was a ca 9 I from extension 4029, which 

: i 4 1 is the extension with the name Mona Sutphen assi ned 

; : 5 1 for 48 seconds, to Ms. Lewinsky’s home number. I3 

to it. 

:16lthat. ma’am? 

0 you see 

::71 A Yes. 

(181 Q Would you have been involved in that call? 

I191 A No. 

(201 Q Do you know what that call was about? 

!Zll A No, I don’t. 

Q Similarly we’ll 

i::ioccurred on November 14th. B 

o to the next call, which 

here was a call from, once 

:24 Iagain, the extension assigned - a uall 

[:s]caII to Ms. Sutphen’s extension, & f&m Ms. Lewiniky’s 

I guess this IS a 

[iSi A I read that. 

Ill1 Q 

[::I A 

So. you saw it? 

Q 

I’ve seen it on this piece of pa 

All 

r. yes. 

7 

ht. Now ma am. if a cal was placed on 

I :a 1 November 3rd 199 to Monida Lewinsk 

p” 

( 1s 1 would you have been the person to call z 

offering her a job 

er and offer her a’ 

rlhliob? .--,, 

(171 A No. 

I181 0 Did 

r 

ou ever call Ms. Lewinsky and offer her a job? 

1191 A No, did not. 

1201 Q Did you ever offer her a job in any setting, 

12 11 whether it was in a call or - 

1221 A 

[23lnot my role. 

It would be inappropriate for me to do that. It’s 

1241 Q Whose role is that? 

[251 A It would probably have been - I would assume it 

Page 63 

E 1 lwould be either Mona or Rebecca., if they were doing this for 

[ 2 1 the Mission, or someone at the M-ion. 

r31 Q 

A 

Well, who is it who decides who gets hired? 

1: 1 Ambassado<s. 

On a political position. the final decision is the 

[Cl Q 

[71 A 

Is this a political rit@n? 

I B I about. 

I don? know wha posibon that we are talking 

Q Well, ma’am, was it your understanding that it was 

r::iAmbassador Richardson who interviewed Monica Lewinsky? 

1111 A 

Q 

Along with Mona and Rebecca 

Was R your undentandmg that 

I::jRichardson who directed 

*i!= was Ambassador 

ou to look for a resume for her? 

A Ambassa dy or RIchardson asked me to get a resume thit 

I::{ he had been told was coming, yes. 

;:76;correct? 

Q And that turned out to be Monica Lewinsky’s, I 

That was Monica’s, yes. 

And it was Ambassador Richardson who indicated to 

Yes. It was his schedule. 

Page 64 

[I 1 you were trying to set up a time for Ms. Lewinsky to have the 

12 1 Interview, ypu we.E &~ng that pased on Ambassador 

t31Richardso;s ave,‘FTl$ and his xhedule. correct? 

[41 

151 0 Okiv. AI ?h Ambassador!?iiardson is the person wt 

;6; had the ultimate aufhoritv within vour office to decide 

iijwhether to extend her an’ offer, c&e&? 

181 A He would have been the one to make that decision, 

r9ws. 

Q Now let’s look at some of the other calls that we 

[iilhave. So we just talked about the call on November 3rd 

[ 12 11997, fro& extension ato Ms. Lewinsky’s Pentagon &ice. 

I131 Now, the next calls that we have - 

I141 

[I51 

f&u;,s~ion~~~:":ecord.) 

Q Now, ma’am. if you look at Exhibit 5, there is a 

;:76jcall on Norrnb;;;.4th. Do you see that, ma’am? 

LIEI 

Q That’s a call on November 14th at 250 in the 

i:iiafternoon and we’ll assume it was approximately a l-minute 

[211call from Ambassador Richardso?, or at least the extension 

rzzlassigned his name, _L to Monica Lewinsky. Do you see 

[zjlthat, ma’am? 

1241 A Yes. 

1251 Q Do you know what that call was about? 

1 P 

Page 66 

[ 11 Pentagon FrnK;: Were you involved in that call? 

I21 

(31 Q Do you know what it was about? 

!41 A 

Q 

No, I do not. 

And then finall 

1 z; bottom of the page of Exhibit 

[7]5th, from a D. Finerman, which 

f8 1 that is the number of another 

: 9 1 would stay pn occasion, to Ms. Sutphenls 

.:ICII last approzmately a mmute. Were you Involved in that call? 

ill, No. I was not. 

0 Do’vou know what it was about? 

i13i A No, -I don’t. 

(141 Q 

,151 the teleohone? 

All right. Do you ever speak to Vernon Jordan on 

Page 67 

[ 1 I said he had a cigar for Bill, and I shoukl pass that word to 

[zlhim. 

Q Okay. Is it accurate then ma’am that any calls 

1: { between Vernon Jordan’s office phone nbmber and Ambassador 

rs]Richardspn’s ._ extension, to the de 

[slsubstanke discussions, they would no ? 

ree that there was any 

A 

have involved you? 

I wouldn’t have been on the phone for a substantive 

[li - I don’t know what you are characterizing as a substantive 

cgldiscussion. 

Q 

I:iithe calls and 

Well, let’s just do this. Let’s just go through 

ou can tell me if ou were the one who was 

~;;;;~;p;$of$ Jordan. And, Iso, what you were speaking 

i141 (Grand Jury Exhibits IW-7, MI-8 

r151 .~~. and IW-9 were marked for 

1161 identification.) 

!171 BY MR. BIENERT: 

0 I’m going to hand you the next three exhibits tiich 

i:iiare 7 8 and 9. If ou look at Exhibit MI-7 

!zolhighli;3hied at num k 

ou’ll see 

r five there is a call at *z 1:17 a.m. on 

rzl]December 1 lth from Vernon Jordan to extension _ It was a 

[zzlbminute, 12-second call. 

Do 

j::iDecember r 

ou remember speaking with Vernon Jordan on 

11 h of last vear? 

OIC-Starr 

iZsi A I don’t b&ieve that I had a 3-minute conversation 

Page 62 to Page 67 
4491 

ESA lsabelle Watkins, S/27/98 XMAX(W12) 

Page 68 Page 71 

i : ,wrth Vernon Jordan. I don’t remember that. I certainly 

: 2 : don’t. 

:3’ Q Do 

K 

ou know why, do you have any information or 

: t knowledge as to w y Vernon Jordan and Ambassador Richardson 

c 5 .would have been speaking around December 1 lth of last year? 

Ifi: A No, I really don’t. 

[7! Cl Are you aware of any topics or issues that were 

1; ongoing that, to our knowled e, involved discussions between 

: Q :Ambassador RIG .Kardson and 9/ 

:!0:1997? 

ernon Jordan in, let’s say, late 

: : Ambassador to the Unrted Nations? 

:- I A When he and Mrs. Richardson moved to New York, I 

[ 251 phone line - to Phe d extension in your office. 

124 I - actually, I’ll re resent o you that’s his secretary’s 

141 A 

i:o]once, twice. 

I don’t remember the number. I would say maybe 

:111 Q 

: 12 lcall in 

Well, we know that you had - we’re talking about a 

late December that you believe was setting u a 

I : 3 1 meetrn 

9 

that we know took place rn early January. 6 ther than 

; 14 1 that Ins ante, do you have any recollectron of ever arranging 

i 1 s 1 for a meeting between Ambassador Richardson and Vernon 

[ls]Jordan? 

[171 A 

118lOR 

Within this timeframe since we’ve been in New York? 

[I91 Q 

A 

Since February of 1997? 

[201 I don’t have a specific memory, no. I could, I 

121 ~could, I could look, but I don’t, I don’t believe there’s 

122 Ianything else. I think we searched the records when we were 

rz3ldorn the document search, and I don’t think there was 

12 4 1 anyti(ing else on there. 

I251 Q So, you believe, based on your memory and what you 

Page 69 Page 72 

ou that we have records 

reakfast on January 6th. 

[lOI A Right. I, I set that u 

1111 Q So, you believe tha P you might have been involved 

[ 12 1 in calls between - or a call by you to Mr. Jordan’s 

[ 13 1 secretary about setting up some type of a breakfast? 

A No. Actually I started out -Ambassador 

I :!,i Richardson was going to be’in Washington and said he wanted 

I I 6 1 to just drop b and see Vernon for five minutes or something 

1171 like that. just Y o do a drop-by, and see if there was a time, 

t~s]was he goin 

9 

to be in town and would it work. And so that 

[lglwas how its arted. 

And then we actually put it on the schedule and it 

i:yi had to cancel. And I don’t remember the reason it had to 

tzz ~cancel. But when I called to say that we weren’t 

rmable to keep the appointment, hrs secretary sard i?e 

oing to bf! 

tza 1 to be in New York. He was coming to New York eithz?h%%y 

t 2s I or whatever, and so maybe they could get together In New 

[91 A I was Ambassador Richardson’s chief of staff. 

[lOI Q And that was in Congress? 

[Ill 

il21 

Aa T;;t was rn the Congress, yes. 

I131 A 

Q 

We were in the Rarbum Bui;r+ 

First of all as chic of staff wou d rt have been 

i :: i part of your duties to arrange meetings with 

A 

ople like - 

Ii76idone that since I came to work for him. 

I still did his scheduling unfo unately. I’ve 

Q In the couple of years leading up to let’s say in 

i:il’the years ‘95 ‘96 ‘97 just taking an arbitrary timef;ame 

[ 20 J how many times do 

tzl&nbassador Richa d 

bu believe you set u 

son and Vernon Jo rXP 

meetings bebeen 

an? 

$:&te 

A 

phone 

A number of times, where they’ve either spoken on 

or visited. 

~::~Ballpark? 

Q By ‘a number of times’, what do you mean? 

Page 70 

[l]York. And I said, well, we can see; ma 

tz I breakfast And I suggested that to the X 

be they coutd have 

mbassador and he 

Page 73 

f :ivou A know. 

I’d you know I’d hesitate to guess. I really, 

I realh;wouldn’t t&w. ._ 

r31 .Q More than lo? 

[41 A No. tt’s probably less than that. I would say -_..I__ I___ IL__ Lt3lsaro yes. 

I: ;that time? 

Q Did anyone indicate to you why they were meeting at 

ts1 A 

I 7 7 to visit 

I just assumed - they’re friends. They were going 

, , __ -._._. 

[El Q You had no - 

191 A As I said. Vernon said he had a cioar for Bill when 

t i 0 i he got on the phone at one 

Q So as with J? 

int, but that was it.” 

e answer you gave us a few minutes 

I iii ago, it wouM be the same in this instance; namely, you have 

[ 131 no specific information as to why the 

A No. When I - most o r 

were meetmg? 

the trme when I set meetings 

! :“, 1 like that for the Ambassador, I don’t need to know. And so I 

t 16 jsimply do what he’s asked me to do. 

Q You began working for the Ambassador approximately 

I :i 1 February of last ear? 

A N% I’ve been workin for Bill Ambassador 

I:z;Richardson since 1988. I was his 

tzl]Washington’. 

c%efofsiaffin 

t221 Q So, you’ve worked with him for several years when 

I 2 3 I he was a Conoressman? 

i24i A -Yes. 

t251 Q And then you came on board with him when he became 

[ 5 1 mayor less man nve. 

161 

I71 

[El 

y, ifyou look at the next exhibit, Exhibit 

Ii-Jordan’s office number to your 

a S-minute call on December 30th. do you 

in that call? 

Cl61 

I171 

I181 

I191 

I201 

3s - this is 524 on - I’m sorry, 

” . .._ w_._ . 

Q December 30th. 

A Oh, the date’s at the top. 

Q Yes, ma’am. 

A I’m sorry. I was missing that. 

Q And then it was a call from his office to vour 

t21jextension. . 

A 

I :: ; secretary? 

I would assume yes. Would that have been his 

Do we know? 

Q I can tell you that 887 -the last call we showed 

I::! you was his secretary’s extension, namely 

-- 

Page 68 to Page 73 

__ 

OIC-Starr 
4492 

BSA lsabelle Watkins, 5127198 

Page 74 Page 77 

XMAX(lY13) 

I : ‘Mr Jordan’s Inside line 

;:. A Uh-huh: 

i3l Q So. that is from hrs office line. as opposed to his 

: 4 j secretary’s line to our extension. 

[ii A Uh-Xuh. 

!6l Q 

[ 7 ! occasion? 

Do you believe that you spoke to Mr. Jordan on that 

13! A I don’t recall that conversation. I don’t remember 

[ 9: havrng a conversation with him. 

IN] Q And focusing on the length of the call. namely 

i 11 I three minutes, do you believe that you would have spoken to 

[ 12 I Mr. JordanAfor three mtnutes? 

1131 Since I have no idea of what the call was about, I 

[ 14:certainly can’t sa 

Q 

how long it would be. 

W&II I think you told us before you have one 

1: z j recollection of one call where he told you he had a cigar for 

.- I I 7 ,~ I Bill. 

I181 A 

I191 

I201 

Q $%c;? 

A 

t211 Q 

122 1for-me - 

Probabl - l-have-a-cigar-for-Bill-tell-him-hellomavbe 10 or r 5 seconds’ worth of conversation? .~~. 

[231 

I241 

[251 

A. Uh-huh. 

Q :Sefslat accurate? 

A 

Page 75 

(11 Q 

tzlfew seconF? 

Have you ever spoken to Mr. Jordan for more than a 

I:ithan Bill has. So I mean its 

I’ve, I actually have known Vernon Jordan longer 

- I come out of Atlanta, 

151 and I knew him in Atlanta’before he ever came to Washington. 

[61So. it’s not as if I didn’t know him at all. I haven’t - on 

[7 la businesslike basis, I have no memory of this telephone 

[Slcall. 

[91 I’m not at all sure that on December the 30th 

[loleither the Ambassador or I were in New York. I mean, I think 

( 111 both of us were probably somewhere else over Christmas/New 

[ 12 1 Year’s 

I171 A 

Cl 

I certainly have his schedules. 

And what we are going to do and we will address it 

i :i; with your attorney. but we are gorng to ask if you guys can 

1201 

[211 & 

rovlde those to us, so we can see when 

ast when the Ambassador was in New 1 

ou were -well. at 

ark and whether you 

r221were in “%$!%&ii%%%~ue I wanted to ask you 

I::iabout is, do you ever call the white House? 

t251 A I have regular conversations with the White House. 

Page 76 

0 Do you ever call the White House on behalf of the 

i:&nbassador to place a call for him to speak to someone at 

tsjthe White H&se? 

Q When 

t:ilWhite House, is that t 

[11] norrnalty call a speciiic number a 

A It de 

i ::; If its someone that 

nds entire1 upon who I’m trying to reach. 

114 1 by heart then I don!r se the &?utt !fntor%heer”ha”~? 

call regul 

[ 1s 1 forgotten it or I, you know, I’m t 

[isjdon’t normally call. I would use y 

ing to reach someone I 

. 

1171 Q Do you ever lace calls to the White House so that 

[ 18 1 the Arnbas_sadqr can speak P o the President? 

I191 A NO. 

Q Do you know how the Ambassador oes about getting! 

[:iiin touch wih the President if he needs to speak to I!. rm? 

I would assume he would go through Ops or something 

I::iof that sort I would think. 

[241 BY MR. LERNER: 

1251 Q But he would place that call himself? 

:!j A No. 

[:: BY MR. BIENERT: 

/ 3 i Q Okay. Let’s back up. Is it accurate that you 

: 4 I typrca:!y do place many of his calls for him? 

li’ 

!6; 

A I do. 

BY MR. LERNER: 

i7! Q Not all, but most, or what? 

A If unless it’s -when he has a callback sheet, 

Ii 1 with a lot of calls, he will give that sheet to for exam le 

[ 1 o 1 Debbte Nelson in our office, and she will piace calls P or s 

!lllhim. 

ilZ1 But the President wouldn’t be on a callback sheet. 

i I 3 1 It’s like the Secretary of State. We don’t put those people 

1:4 ion a callback sheet. We t 

[ ls~can. because we consider r 

to connect them as qurckly as we 

hose priority calls. 

1161 BY MR. BIENERT: 

By 

I211 A I’ve never done that. 

Q So you wouldn’t know what number he would call to 

i:: 1 try to get hold of the President? 

- A 

I::iwould go through the Whrte 

If I were tryin 

?i 

to reach the President and - I 

ouse Ops people, if I thought it 

[I lwas an emergency, that we for some reason needed to reach 

Page 78 

rzlhrm. 

(31 BY MR. LERNER: 

141 Q 

A 

And White House Ops is what number? 

I’d, I’d have to I’d have to look it up. I might 

i zi have to go throu h the switchboard to ask. 

[71 

(RI 

AQ $ehaip is- 

.-> 

[91 

ilO1 

Q 

A 

And is Opsw Does that ring a bell? 

I don’t recall. 

illi Q Oka 

1121 BY MR. &NERT: 

Q Have 

dy 

ou ever placed calls to the White House to 

I ii; get hoM oathe Foyi ent? 

I151 

Q SO it’s a hypothetical from your standpoint, 

[ : ,” 1 because you’ve never done it? 

1181 A Yeah. It would be extremelv unusual and it hasn’t 

;t 

Page 0 

A I woutd certainty -that’s a hypothetical, but I 

I: i would assume so certainty 

I31 MR. BIENERT: ’ That’s all we have. 

I~~concfucled.) 

(Whereupon, at 12:03 p.m., the proceedings were 

161 

l *..* 

CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER - NOTARY PUBL 

[201 

I211 Ht 

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 

I:: i My Commission Expires: 

[24lJuIy 31. 2000 

1251 

acstarr Page 74 to Page 0 

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KNOW YOUR RIGHTS (Formerly Ad-300) 5067-126 

7540-01-337-4703 

For 1996 Order 7540-01-337-6712 
SUN. MONDAY TUESDAY I. WEDNESDAY I THURSDAY FRIDAY SAT. 

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JANUARY 1998 

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OPTIONAL FORM 67 

EEO IS THE LAW (Formerly M-300) X167-126 

7540-01-337-4703 

For 1998 Order 7540-01-337-8712 
ACTIVITY I 

SIJN. MONDAY 

iCHEDULE JANUAR 

TUESDAY I WEDNESDAY THURSDAY FRIDAY 

f DECEMBER I997 

SMTWTFS 

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FEBRUARY 1998 

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YEAR’S 

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KING, JR’S 

BIRTHDAY 

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For 1998 Order 7540-01-337-8712 

OPTIONAL FORM 67 

EEO IS FOR EVERYONE (Formerly Ad.3001 !%67- 176 

_ __ 
4497 

~._ 

: 

. * 

*. Monica S. Lewinaky 

. . . f * 

--- 

w-2 

Education: 

Lewis tnd Clark College Portland, Oregon 

Bachelor of Science in Pqychobgy May 1995 

Experience: 

Deputment of Defense The Pcntagoa Wahingto~ D.C. 

Chnfidmtial Amidant CO the Asaiutand Secret Of DcfcnSe fO? At& A/@& 

April 1996 l prerent 

serve aa p&lcipal tmistaxlt to the Amiattnt secretary of Defmae (Am) Bar Public Affaira in support of 

his dual role as both Depprtment af Defime spoke- and head of leputmeat of IMime Public 

Afkirs. Amist in preparing the ASD for bi-weekly press brie%gs. Interact ti the ~tioaal print and 

broadcast media 0~1 the ASITe behalf. Provide the ASD with timtly updattt of current media etorica. 

Act as liaison with the 05ces of the !3ecrstary, the Whits House, other Cabinet Seuetariee and the 

Ndimal stcurity Cod Rovide eupport to h htary of Defense and APoiotant Secretpry on 

kquent intematiouaI travel which includes a contingent of tmvekg media. &milt the ASD’e daily 

ached&e and correspondence. 

The White Howe Wa?d&tm, D.C. 

StaffkEistunt to Director of L&lativg~airs CoMqpondque. Novwnber 1995 -April 1996 

Wrote d&s and correepondehce for staff Secmtary’o appmval and ultimately the Preeident’a 

&nature, ~?$ch often nquixud reaeurch of various Abibtration isaes and policies. Coordinattd 

ipam mai’linpe to Congress for the Preeident 2nd other Senior Admi&trttion of&i& Processed and 

vetted sll incoming mail to the President &om Congress. Trtined and supervised new iatsrns on White 

Houae procedure and preparation of White House correspondence. 

The White House Wtuhingbn, D.C. a . 

Swmzw In&m offitr of the CkiefofSta# July - Novsmbk 15% . 

D&ted form lettera and individual nsponeeo fn~ the ChiefofStaffa signatun. Acted as a-fiaiwn far ’ 

Chief of Staffs of&e to other White B~Q officee, Cabinet agenciee, aad.CangRati~ti oBcts. 

Updated o&e manual. S~pervkd and coordintttd iuttm tnd volabateer sta& * , 

Metmpolittn Public Deftndtrs Portland, 0qoz1 

Ah.wnutk St& February - May 1995 

Implemented new psychology expert reference techniques. Antited attmney8 in tiding viable 

alternative to prison for thtir clients. Directed clients in euazeeful sear& fix smppr~~~, shaker, kd 

and transportation. Updated fiIes on reoource mattriale. 

Southeast Mtxttal Htalth Network (P~8CtiCU~) Porthmd, Oregon 

S~ianStoffAsaiskvrt, January- June 1994 

Ateisted &afiin teaching socialization skilla to mentally 111 clients to ease their integration back into 

tociety. Updated clienta’ coxAientitl raporta. Coordinated fund raising to benefit extra-curricuIar 

tbeatre activitit8. -a 

Additional Information: 828-~~12 

l TSSCI Clearance: Current 

l Proficient in Macintosh for Microsoft Word 6.0, WordPerftct for Windows 5.2. Quorum, nd Infosya. 
Lewis and Clark Collage Portland, Oregon 

Bachelor of Science in l%ychdogy May 1995 

Experience: 

Department of Defense The Pentagon Washington, D.C. 

Confidential Assistant to the Aseiutant Secretxuy ofDe$e~~e for Public #fairs 

April 1996 - present 

Serve aa principal assistant to the Aaeistant Secretary of Defense (ASD) for Public Affairs in support of 

his dual role as both Department of DeGoae spokesman and head of Department of Defiznee Public 

Affaire. Assist in preparing the ASD for biweekly prees briefinge. Interact with the national print and 

broadcast me&a on the ASlh behalf. Provide the ASD with timely updates of cummt media storica. 

Act ae liaison with the o&es of the Secretary, the White House, other Cabinet Secretaries and the 

National Security CounciL Provide eupport to the Secretary of Defense and Aaeiutant Sec&ary on 

frequent international travel which includes a contingent of traveling media. Handle the ASITe daily 

echeduie and axreepondence. 

The White House Washington, D.C. 

Staff Adstant to Dbectot of Leg&&dive A#jbirs Coircspondqzce, November 1995 - April 1999 

Wrote drafts and corresponds&e for Staff Secretary’s approval and ultimately the Preeident’s 

signature, which often required research of various Administration Lzuee and policies. Coordinated 

mace mailinga to Congress for the President and other Senior Administration oEciala. Processed and 

vetted all incoming mail to the Preeident fmm Congress. Trained and eupervised new interns on White 

House procedure and preparation of White Houee correspondence. 

. 

The White House Waehington, D-C. * 

Sumnrer Intern Ofice of the Chief of St& July - November 19% . 

Drafted form letters and individual nsponaee for the Chief of Staffs eignatxzre. Acted as_amlkiaon iar 

Chief of StaEs office to other White Hotaae officee, Cabinet agencies, and.Congre~ti&aI o&er. 

Updated oEice manual. S_upervieed and coordinated intern and voldnteer staff. * 

Metropolitan Public Defenders Portland, Oregon 

Alternatives Staff, February - May 1995 

Implemented new psychology expert referen= techniques. As&ted attorneya in &nling viable 

alternatives to prison for their clienta. Directed clienta in succeeeful eearch fix support, shelter, food 

and tranapartation. Updated files on resource materials. 

Southeast Mental Health Network (Practicum) Portland, Oregon 

SociafizaGon SW Aasidant, January - June 1994 

Aaeisted staff in teaching socialization skilla to mentally ill clients to ease their integration back into 

eociety. Updated clients’ confidential reporta. Coordinated fund raising to benefit extra-curricular 

theatre activities. 

titianal Information: 82.8-DcM)oooo12 

l TSSCI Clearance: Current 

l Proficient in Macintosh for Microsoft Word 6.0, WordPerfect for Windows 5.2, Quorum, nnd Intoeye. 
4499 

ST .* 

- 

12600 

IAM 

29 

12615 

IP” 

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18671 

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29031 

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WATKINS 

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._ 
.-,- 

Date Time Duration From Phone From Nemo ToPhone IO Nun. Call ID 

~._._ - ~._ 

02l2711996 OtI48.W 

_ -. _- ~_ 

04/04/1996 10’34 00 

04/04/1996 18.3429 

04mw996 17.38~# 

O4lQ5lli390 ii.38.24 

04l1&19i6 li:25.& 

~Ul9ll996 13125.52 

04/19ll996 15:14:W 

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DbllWl996 15:14 3s 

Q9l121199607:5&00 

09/12ll99607:59:10 

-. -._-_ - -_._ ___ 

09/12/199608:19.00 

09/1a19960&19:06 

_---~.--___ __ 

lo/2711997 17:34:00 

.--- ._-_ ._-_.__ 

10/27/l 997 173453 

. ..-_.._- -_ . _-_.___ 

lW29I1997 12:ll:W 

--.. .--_ ._.____ 

lOR9l1997 12:11#S 

._-_._ -- ._ ____ 

lw29i1997 1353:W 

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lW29l1997 13:53:23 

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lo/30/1997 19:17:00 

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llKml1997 15:Sl:W 

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ltllu1997 1450:~ 

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DONOVAN. JOHN/P 

ILEW~NSKY. MONICA: ,~..._. DONOVAN. ..~_ JOHN~P~ .._.. 

-----1--._~ 

LEWINSKY, MONICA; DONOVAN, JOHN/P 

LEWINSKY. MONICA; DONOVAN, JOHN/P 

---~_-- _-___ 

LEWINSKY, MONICA; DONOVAN, JOHN/P 

EWINSKY. MONICA: DONOVAN. JOHN/Pi 

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m ILEWINS~CY. MoNicA: DONOVAN. JOHNA 

m ILEWINSKY, MONICA; ~IoN~~AK%~HN*I 

UN EXTENSION 

--_._____ 

UN EXTENSION 

---~ -._--_- 

LEWINSKY, MONICA; DONOVAZN 

RICHARDSON, WILLIAM AMBASSADOR 

---- 

RICHARDSON, WILLIAM AMBASSADOR 

UN EXTENSION 

UN EXTENSION I----- 

EWINSKY. MONICA: DONOVAN. JOHN/Pi UN EXTENSION 

Eli/INSW. M6iJICA: DONOVAN. JOHN/PI 

EWINSKY. MONICA: DONOVAN. JOHN/PI 

UN EXTENSION 

EST lW:Ol:W 

-_____ 

‘----- ~iiiii6iSKY. MONICA: DON6i%ii:6iiiidi UN EXTENSION 

2 
4502 

OK. I have some bad news. I am off the next trip so i won’t be coming to 

Tokyo. I am probably sorrier than you are. the truth is it would have been 

so difficult to spend time together and it probably would have benn more 

$strating than anything. 

The job thing on Friday went much better than expected. 11 was nice; the 

big creep called thursday night and gave me a pep talk because i was so 

afraid I’d sound like an idiot. Richardson is a great guy and i met two 

women who work for him...also very cool. Yesterday, Richardson called me at 

work and told me they were going to offer me a posttion..fhey didn’t know 

what yet, and they wanted to talk wfth me further. The problem is, I don’t 

really wnat to work there (issue wise or location wise) I’ve already had 

the experience of working in a yucky building. It was awful. actually, 

because i feel a little trapped into taking it. HOPEFULLY, there will be 

some movement on the other tracks in NY too. I told mr. bacon 1 was 

planning to move and was in the process of looking...which is why i asked 

him if i could switch trips with tom. The biggest reason i need to do that 

was because the creep’s friend who is supposed to help me wtth the private 

sector possibilities has been out of town the last two weeks. I feel like 

Ill lose momentum with them if i disappear for three weeks now (that’s 

induding Thanksgiving). Oy vey! # 

m glad to hear you guys had such a nice weekend. Honestly Cat, it sounds 

like such a wonderful fantasy to me. To be with yourr husband - as part of 

a couple with other couples doing couple-y kinds of things and having fun. 

My Australian boyfriend CALLED me on Friday to let me know his e-mail was 

down., He said it had become habit to e-mail me friday nights and he wanted 

to let me know he couldn’t send anything. I know...when’s the wadding????? 

Just kiddin’. 

i miss you tons and am so sad I won’t see you, but maybe well work 

something out soon. When do you guys come to the states&r holiday? and 

for good? 

kisses and hugs 

Monica 

_ 

1037-DC4OOOOO22 -- 

CA Davis 

From: 

Sent: 

To: 

Subject: 

CA Davis 

RE: troubs? 

From: CA Davis 

ember 03.1997 7:lSPM 

Hi. I sent you a message called ‘quickie’ last wk. but it was = 

undeliverable for awhile so I’m hoping this will reach you. You’d think = 

the Pn Pentagon could have straightened out email! Anyway, how did = 

your ‘meeting’ go last week? I’m seeing the man on tellie alot because = 

of the Iraqi nonsense. 

than the DOD. 

I think that could be a cool job, maybe better = 

I had a long wkend away from home. We went to a friend’s office’s = 

cottage at Lake Kawaguchi. Its Susan’s office’s cottage and she invited = 

us and 2 other couples for the 3day wkend- so 4 couples all together. = 

It was fun- we drank a lot, ate a lot, hiked, walked, lounged, played = 

games etc..1 was about ready to go home Sunday evening but we left Mon. = 

morning. I was getting tired of being surrounded by Bits! Actually = 

one couple is made up of a German woman and a man, Gavin, who is = 

Page 1 
4503 

Canadian/Scottish/American. Anyway, Chris and I had Monday alone in the = 

city because it was a holiday. We went shoppping, had lunch and saw My = 

Best Friend’s Wedding. It was a thrill to go to the movres and see a = 

current-ish US movie. I really miss going to the movies as part of a = 

social life. In the US when you don’t feel like having a big night you = 

can just have dinner and go to a movie and at least you’re out of = 

thehouse, but here its expensive and the movies are crap generally so if = 

you want o be mellow its renting a movie and eating in which gets = 

tiresome. 

Whoa, I have to go to work! Write back and thanks for the FWs. What = 

did you pick for the ‘psychological test’? love, Cat 

Page 2 
4 1 112/22/97 IO4:59 PM IVernon Jordan's office, IWhite House operator, (2:12 

I I 

1 2 112/22/97 I05:03 PM IVernon Jordan's office, I~m~;;,Lewinsky, Pen;agon lo:18 

I 3 112/22/97 1,05:04 PM Ignon Jordan's office, It&nzE;d; Richardso;;& 11:24 

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Vernon Jordan's 

Vernon Jordan's 

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Vernon Jordan's 

Vernon Jordan's 

office, 1_ 

Vernon Jordan's 

office, a_ 

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I 

0:36 

Barbara Neysmith, American Express, e 0:54 

Barbara Neysmith, American Express, _ 3:36 

Howard Gittis, Revlon, 2e I 4:24 

Ambassador Richardson, United Nations, - 3:12 

I 

Barbara Neysmith, American Express, N 

I 

0:48 

Peter Georgescu, Young & Rubicam, _ l:oo 

Howard Gittis, Revlon, 1:06 

Barbara Neysmith, American Express, m 0:30 

Richard Halperin, Revlon, 0 1:06 
N 

v-l ? 
4507 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHiNGTON 

August 5, 1998 

Via Hand Delivery 

Julie Corcoran, Esq. 

Offke of the Independent Counsel 

Suite 490 North 

1001 Pennsylvania Ave, N.W. 

Washington, D.C. 20004 

Dear Julie: 

I am enclosing the remaining phone logs that you requested. They bear bates 

nos. SO19576 - 19713. 

I trust that your office will treat the enclosed information as confidential and 

entitled to all protection accorded by law, including Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 6(e), to 

documents subpoenaed by a federal grand jury. If you have any questions, I can be reached at 

(202) 456-7804. 

Associate Counsei to the President 

Enclosureks 

1472-DCMx)ol 
OLn 

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-. 

4508 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

TELEPHONE MEMORANDUM 

NOV-R 15th 

1472~DC-ooooooo2 

MR. LEON E. PANETTA 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

WHITE HOUSE ADMIN 

MR. ERSKINE B. BOWLES 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

WHITE HOUSE ADMIN EXT.- 

MR. STROBE TALBO'IT 

XR. D. STEPHEN GOODIN 

MRS. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON 

RES: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

WHITE HOUSE ADMIN MTMRS. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON 

RES: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

WHITE HOUSE ADMIN EXT. 

'TLKD-OK 8:Oo A.M. 

TLKD-OK 8:33 A.M. 

TLKD-OK 9:46 A.M. 

TLKD-OK lo:23 A.M. 

TLKD WITH MS. BETTY 

CURRIE 11:44 A.?4. 

TLKD-OK 12:50 P.M. 

GPO : 1993 0 - COS-660 : QL 2 
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INC 

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4509 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

TELEPHONEMEMORANDUM 

1472~DC-ooooooo3 

WIDENT CLINTON 

, 

NOVEMBER 15th 

I: 05 rw2:22 

AM 

!:20 CM 2:33 

AM 

CONGRESSMAN DON YOUNG 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

, 

SENATOR CAROL MOSLEY BRAUN 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

I 

SENATOR JOHN KERRY 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

GOVERNOR CHRISTINE W 

OFC: TRENTON, N.J. 

MR. RICK KAPLAN 

WHEY N.Y: 

6PO : 1983 0 - ‘tOI-CL0 : QL 2 

ACTION 

INFORHEDMS.BETTY 

CURRIE 2:16 P.M. 

INFORNED MS. BET'f~ 

CURRIE 2:17 P.M. 

ILKD-OK 2:19 P.M. . 

PLKD-OK 2:24 P.M. 

TLKD-OK 2:37 P.M. 
4510 

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INC 

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THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

1472-DC_00000004 

PRESIDENT '&I 

rIYL 

ILACED 1 DISC 

TELEPHONE MEMORANDUM 

NOVEMBER 15 th 

NAME 

MR. HOWARD M. METZENBAUX 

OFC: WASHINGTON. D.C. 

MR. D. STEPHEN GOODIN 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

WHITE HOUSE ADMIN EXT. - , 

- 

P 

CONGRESSMAN RICHARD A. GEPHARDT 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

THE VICE PRESIDENT 

RES:. WASHINGTON,.D.C. 

WriITE HOUSE ADMIN EXT. - 

GPO : 1993 0 - IOI-690 : QL 2 

ACTION 

PER: MS. BEZ'TY-CURRIE 

PRESIJS NOT AVAILABLE 

3:13 P.M. 

PER: HR. STEPHEN GOOD1 

CA CALL 3:29 P.N. 

CURRIE 6:05 P.M. 

TLKD-OK-7:38 P.M. 

[ZKV-UK O-U5 . r 1*1 . . 
4511 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

1472~DcMxx)o5 

TELEPHONE MEMORANDUM 

-. 

I 

OK: WASHINGTON, D.C. 
ouINC 

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OUT 

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4512 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

1472-DC-00000006 

TELEPHONE MEMORANDUM 

PRESIDENT CLIN'i'ON NOVEMBER 15th 

. 19J!z 

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8 

NAME 

-CGNGRESSWoKAN KAREN MCCARTHY 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

‘, 

CONGRESSRARHARTIN T. MEEHAN 

CONGRESSMAN DAVID SKAGGS 

OFC: WASHINGTON. D.C. 

In, JR. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

rarE&VlLL 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

CONGRESSMAN JIW CHAPMAN 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

Am 

TLKD-OK lo:42 P.H. 

[NFORMED MS. BETTY 

XJRRIE lo:50 P.M. 

_- 

PLKD-OK lo:53 P.M. . 

fLKD-OK 9:25 P.M. 

CPO : 1963 0 - .OS-660 : QL 2 
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4513 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 1 472-DC-ooocooo7 

TELEPHONE MEMORANDUM 

PRESIDENT CLINTON 

1Cit.h 

8:50 m 

An 

8:50 PM 

8:50 w 

AM 

---+I 

8:50 PM 

AM 

----ii 

8:50 PM 

Dmc 

.0:28 

10:01 

1:37 

1l:li 

CONGRESSMAN STENY HOYER 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

- 

‘- 

CONGRESSMAN ROBERT C. SCOTT 

CONGRESSMAN NORMAN D. DICK2 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

CONGRESSMAN DOUGEAS PETERSON 

OFC: YASHINGTON, D-C. 

CONGRESSMAN GLENN POSHARD 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

ZKD-OK lo:09 P.M. 

'LKD-OK 9:46 P.M. 

_ __ 

TLKD-OK 11:28 P.M. 

s 

fiP0 : 1963 0 - cot-660 : QL 2 

Il@ORMD MS. BETTY 

CURRIE lo:51 P.M. 

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INFORMED MS. BETTY 

CURRIE lo:59 P.M. 
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4514 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

1472aC-ooooooo8 

TElEPHONE MEMORANDUM 

'RESIDENT CLINTON 

rlYL I 

NOVMBER 15th 

ii 

I:!50 Pu 

An 

Pw 

w 

10:05 PM 

AM 

PM 

MM 

.1:13 m 

AM 

----ii 

.1:17 w 

AM 

---it 

11:4opy 

DIU 

m!i 

0:36 

11:2! 

11:2' 

NAME 

CONGRESSMAN JOHN S. TANNER 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

; 

. 

CONGRESSMAN WILLIAM P. LUTHER 

CONGRESSMAN RONALD COLMAN 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

MR. LEON E. PANETTA 

RES: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

WHITE HOUSE SIGNXL7" 

MR 

REi: WASHINGTiN, D.C. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

AmON 

TLKD-OK 9:31 P.M. 

:NFORMED MS. BETTY 

:URRIE lo:02 P.M. 

TLKD-OK lo:29 P.M. 

TLKD-OK 11:14 P.M. 

TLKD-OK 11:25 P.M. 

'LKD-OK 11:44 P.M. 

GPO : 1993 0 - cos-690 : QL 2 
4515 

OUT 

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7:30 PM 

AM 

PM 

AM 

PM 

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7:16 

7:59 

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- 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

TELEPHONE MEMORANDUM 

SIGNAL SWITCHBOARD 

NAME 

Conference Call: 

- 

I 

1472-DC-00000009 

ber 15. 1995 

ACTION 

%I . . 

A-- 

Conference Call: E%i . . 
4516 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

TELEPHONE MEMORANDUM 

SIGNAL SWITCHBOARD 

1472-DC-CNXMOOlO 

TIME NAME ACTION 

PLACED DISC 

- . 

OUT AM 

INC PM 

OUT AJ4 L 

INC PM . 

an-' AM 

INC PM . 

xxx AM 

INC 11:00 PM 

Vice President AlbeG Fr; Jr. 

Residence, Washi 

White House Signa T w 

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s 019703 

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4517 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

PRESIDENT CLINTON 

TELEPHONE MEMORANDUM 

NOVEMBER 17th * 19. 

CONGRESSMAN HENRY HYDE 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

CONGRESSMAN HENRY J. HYDE 

WASHINGTON. D.C-. 

CONGRESSMAN JOEL HEFLEY 

CONGRESSMAN H.L. CALLAHAN 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

CONGRJISSMAN J.C. YATTS.,JR. 

CONGRESSMAN FLOYD SPENCE 

GPO : 1963 0 - uOS-660 : QL 2 

TLKD-OK 1:54 P.M. 

TLKD-OK 2:55 P.M. 

TLKD-OK 2:59 P.M. 

TLKD-OK 3:43 P.M. 

INFORMED MS. CURRI 

8:27 P.M. 

UJF~ED-tdS.-URRI: 

?:03 P.M. 
4518 

TIIE ’ WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

TELEPHONE MEMORANDUM 

PRESIDEtZ CLINTON NOVEMSZR 17th 

INC 

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4:07 

5:53 

7:20 

4:21 

NAME 

CONGRESSMAN ROGER F. WICKER 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

-- 

CONGRESSHAN DAVE WELDON 

SPEAKER NEXT GINGRICH 

OFC: YASHINGTOFJ, D.C. 

WHITE HOUSE ADMIN MT. 

CONGRES%AN G . V . MONTGOMERY 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

CONGRESSMAN PRESTON GEREU 

CONGRESSWOMAN LYNN RIVERS 

ACTION 

TLKD-OK 7:24 P.X. 

INFORMED HS. BETI'! 

W. CURRIE 8:20 P.I 

TLKD-OK 4:04 P.N. 

TLKD-OK 5:49 P.X. 

TLKD-OK 7:Ol P.H. 

GPO : 1983 0 - cos-660 : QL 2 

1472~DC-12 
4519 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WMHINGTON 

TELEPHONE MEMORANDUM 

PRESIDENT CLINTON NOVEMBER I'lth 

INC 

OVT 

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CONGRESSMAN THOMAS M. BARRETT 

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CONGRESSMAN PETER J. VI.%LOSKY 

CONGRESSMAN LEWIS F. PAYNE, JR. 

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CONGRESSMAN FRANK TEJEDA 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

CONGRESSWOMAN ZOE LOFGREN 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

I 

GPO : 1993 0 - 4405-660 : QL 2 

1472-DC-00000013 

ACTION 

INFORMED MS. BETTY 

W. CURRIE 4:13 P.M 

TLKD-OK 6:28 P.M. : 

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PLKD-OK 4:22 P.H. 

TLKD-OK 4:40 P.M. 

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PMCB-OK-6:53 -P;::. -' 
PRESIDENT CLINTON 

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4520 

I-HE WHITE HOUSE 

WMHING7-N 

TELEPHONE MEMORANDUM 

NOVEMBER 17th 

NAME 

CONGRESSMAN BART GORDON 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

CONGRESSMAN MICHAEL DOYLE 

OFC: WASHINGT0N;rD.C. 

CONGRESSWOMAN KAREN THURMAN 

DFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

MR. LEON E. PANETTA 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

SECRETARY WILLIAM PERRY a 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

WHiITE HOUSE ADMIN MT. 

CONGRESSMAN HERBERT H. BATERAN 

GPO : 1963 0 - 405-660 : QL 2 

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SECRETARY WILLIAM PERRY a 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

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Conference Call: . . 

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Vice President Albert Gore. Jr. * Tlkd-ok 

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via Secure Satellite 

Ambassador Walter Mondale 

-Tokyo. Japan . 
MR. ALFONSO FANJUL 

GPO : 16.6 0 - UOS-660 : PL I 
MS. KATHLEEEN A. McGINTY 

RES: ARLINGTON, VA. 

PER MRS. CLINTON 

CANCEL 3:17 P.M. 

URS. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON 

RES: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

WHITE HOUSE ADMIN EXTTLKD-OK 1:36 P.M. 

MS. MARSHA SCOTT 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

NO NUMBER AVAILABLE 

PER MS. CURRIE 

PRESUS WILL SEE 

MS. scow: 1:48 P.M. 

HS. CAPRICIA MARSHALL ITLKD-OK 1:44 P.M. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 

WHITE HOUSE ADMIN EXT. 

MS. BETTY Id. CURRIE 

CELLULAR PHONE 

TLKD-OK 1:46 P.M. 

MRS. NANCY F. MITCHELL TLKD-OK 3~43 P.M. 

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1472-DC-OOOOOO18 
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TIME NAME ACTION 

PLACED DISC 

xxx 11:49 AM Vice President Albert Gore. Jr. 

Dora! Golf Resort and Spa 

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1472-DC-00000020 
DOUGLAS S. WILEY, Vice President of HECHT-SPENCER, 

499 South Capitol Street, S.W., Suite 507, Washington, D.C., 

Social Security Account Number date of birth 

r a, was intervie 01 RESTAURANT, 

701 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C. After being 

advised as to the identity of the interviewing Agents, WILEY 

provided the following information: 

WILEY was introduced to MONICA LEWINSKY by LAUREN VAN 

METRE (phonetic). WILEY and VAN METRE had attended college 

together at Davidson College. VAN METRE had introduced WILEY to 

other girls in the past and had on several occasions "set him up" 

for dates with others. VAN METRE had worked in the Pentagon with 

LEWINSKY. 

After VAN METRE had made arrangements for LEWINSKY and 

WILEY to go out on a date, WILEY estimated that their first date 

occurred in late summer or early fall 1997. WILEY met LEWINSKY 

at LEWINSKY's Watergate apartment. LEWINSKY gave WILEY a tour of 

her apartment and the two went to dinner at the RED SAGE 

RESTAURANT. LEWINSKY and WILEY had gone on an additional date, 

however, WILEY was unable to recall a time or place for the 

event. WILEY recalled the last time that he saw LEWINSKY in 

person was on the eve of ICATHRYN HAYCOCK's confirmation to 

Ambassador to Malta. The gathering had been held at a local 

restaurant, possibly the ELEO (phonetic) RESTAURANT, near 

9th Street, N-W., Washington, D.C. WILEY recalled seeing 

LEWINSKY there because there were very few people celebrating the 

affair and LEWINSKY stood out in WILEY's mind a's being somewhat 

out of place. 

During the course of their short dating relationship, 

LEWINSKY never told WILEY that she had been a White House Intern. 

LEWINSKY occasionally mentioned that she had met or knew 

President CLINTON. WILEY never questioned LEWINSKY about the 

subject because he felt that she was simply exaggerating about 

President CLINTON. LEWINSKY told WILEY that she had given 

President CLINTON a tie, which she had seen the President wear on 

national television. WILEY thought that the story was plausible, 

but she never explained the circumstances surrounding the 

occurrence. WILEY believed that LEWINSKY did not explain any 

Investigation on 02/06/98 ar Washington, D.C. File I 29D-OIC-LR-35063 

Date dictared 02/06/P; 

- 
WILEY did not see any photos of LEWINSKY and CLINTON, 

nor had WILEY ever seen or heard any cassette tapes concerning 

the voice of LEWINSKY or President CLINTON. WILEY had never 

heard LEWINSKY state anything about a sexual relationship with 

President CLINTON. WILEY was aware that LEWINSKY worked at the 

Pentagon because of the nature of their introduction by 

LEWINSKY's co-worker VAN METRE. WILEY had no additional 

knowledge concerning LEWINSKY's employment. 

WILEY did not have a sexual relationship with LEWINSKY. 

WILEY described LEWINSKY as being a little infatuated with WILEY 

and that he felt she simply wanted "someone to love." However, 

WILEY commented that she was not naive but manipulative. WILEY 

did not want to cut off all contact with LEWINSKY after dating 

began to appear awkward, so he continued to receive and send 

electronic mail with LEWINSKY. WILEY felt that continuing the 

electronic mail contact with personal interaction would be a way 

"to cool things down." In both personal contact and electronic 

mail interaction, WILEY described LEWINSKY as vivacious and 

sexually forward. 
- Sergeant, United States Secret Service (USSS), 

Uniformed Division, was interviewed at the Office of the 

Independent Counsel (OIC), 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, 

Washington, DC, 20004. Present for the interview were Associate 

Independent Counsel (AIC) MICHAEL TRAVERS, AIC MARY ANNE WIRTH 

and Department of Justice (DOJ) Attorneys DAVE ANDERSON and JANIS 

KESTENBAUM. WILLIAMS was interviewed under the terms of an 

agreement reached between the OIC and the DOJ. After being 

apprised of the official identities of the interviewing Agents 

and the nature of the interview, 

information: 

WILLIAMS provided the following 

WILLIAMS has worked for the USSS since June of 1988. 

From 1994-1996, WILLIAMS was assigned to the ww East 

Wing of the White House. In April of 1996, WILLIAMS was promoted 

to Sergeant and spent one year unassigned. WILLIAMS explained 

that as an unassigned officer, one would work various shifts in 

different areas of the White House. In May of 1997, WILLIAMS was 

assigned to the Northwest gate. WILLIAMS advised he is also 

assigned to magnetometer duty and, as a result, frequently 

travels away from the White House. 

WILLIAMS first saw MONICA LEWINSKY when WILLIAMS was 

assigned to the- and LEWINSKY was assigned to the 

Correspondence office of the Office of Legislative Affairs. 

WILLIAMS would see LEWINSKY three to four times a week if 

WILLIAMS was at the White House. WILLIAMS described his 

relationship with LEWINSKY as a "hi/good-bye" relationship. 

WILLIAMS heard LEWINSKY and JOCELYN JOLLEY were getting 

transferred out of the White House a couple of days before they 

were transferred. At the time of the transfers, WILLIAMS did not 

know why they were being moved. A couple of days after the 

transfer, WILLIAMS heard that LEWINSKY was hanging around the 

West Wing too much and EVELYN LIEBERMAN had her transferred. 

Well after LEWINSKY was transferred, WILLIAMS heard a 

rumor about LEWINSKY and President WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON 

being caught in a compromising position in the White House 

theater. 

Investigation cm 05/18/98 at Washington, DC File # 29D-OIC-LR-35063 

by m 

Datedictated 05/21/98 
4530 

OIC-302a (Rev. b 19-94) 

- 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

Continuation of OIC-302 of KEITH WILLIAMS .OEI 05/18/98 ,Page 2 

WILLIAMS saw LEWINSKY once after she was transferred. 

WILLIAMS first advised he believed the incident occurred in early 

October of 1997. After further questioning, WILLIAMS advised 

this incident occurred on his birthday. Upon further 

questioning, WILLIAMS advised the incident could have happened in 

August of 1997. WILLIAMS does not recall this incident 

coinciding with a newspaper article mentioning an incident 

involving CLINTON and a former White House staffer. 

WILLIAMS advised he was walking from the West Wing'to 

the East Wing when he passed LEWINSKY. WILLIAMS can not recall 

if LEWINSKY had a White House pass when he saw her. WILLIAMS 

then called JOHN MUSKETT just to let him know LEWINSKY was there 

since MUSKETT and LEWINSKY were friends. WILLIAMS knew MUSKETT 

and LEWINSKY were friends because WILLIAMS often saw LEWINSKY 

speaking to MUSKETT. 

WILLIAMS advised that since he has been a Sergeant at 

the Northwest gate, he can recall two occasions LEWINSKY showed 

up at the Northwest gate without an appointment. WILLIAMS 

advised that LEWINSKY would advise she was phoning BETTY CURRIE. 

WILLIAMS advised that LEWINSKY did not gain access to the White 

House through the Northwest gate on these two occasions. 

WILLIAMS advised that on December 6, 1997, shortly 

after 10 a.m., he received a call on his radio from BRENT 

CHINERY. CHINERY advised that WILLIAMS needed to respond to the 

West Wing . WILLIAMS telephoned CHINBRY, 

who advised WILLIAMS needed to see BETTY CURRIE as CURRIE was 

upset. 

WILLIAMS proceeded to the Northwest gate to see the 

officer on duty and determine if anything unusual occurred. The 

officers responded no so WILLIAMS proceeded to the West Wing to 

see CHINERY. CHINERY told WILLIAMS that the incident had 

something to do with someone at the Northwest gate telling 

someone on the outside of the White House about CLINTON and a 

guest and their location. 

WILLIAMS then went to CURRIE's office. CURRIE was 

visibly upset. CURRIE could not understand why someone would 

tell an outsider about what was happening inside the White House. 

CURRIE said that LEWINSKY had phoned her numerous times and said 

that LEWINSKY was told that CLINTON was in the Oval Office with 

ELEANOR MONDALE. 

CURRIE asked WILLIAMS to please find out what was going 
4531 

OK-302~ ~Rev. 8-19-94) 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

Continuation of OK-302 of KEITH WILLIAMS ,On 05/18/98 ,Page 3 

on, because the incident was serious enough to get someone into 

trouble. WILLIAMS told CURRIE that he would look into it and 

CURRIE asked him to get back to her as soon as possible. 

Although the DOJ claimed that questions regarding what CURRIE 

relayed to WILLIAMS about CLINTON's conversations with CURRIE 

were possibly covered by Executive Privilege, WILLIAMS was asked 

if CURRIE indicated the President's temperament. WILLIAMS 

advised that CURRIE said the President was upset. 

WILLIAMS left CURRIE's office and went back to the 

Northwest gate. On the way to the Northwest gate, WILLIAMS 

called his supervisor, Captain JEFF PURDIE. WILLIAMS told the 

officers at the Northwest gate, BRYAN HALL and STACY PORTER, that 

someone could get fired over this incident. 

WILLIAMS advised that PORTER said he was unaware of the 

incident. HALL advised he did not know who LEWINSKY was, but she 

came to the post and said she had gifts for CLINTON and CURRIE. 

LEWINSKY told HALL that she used to work at the White House. 

Although it is not standard operating procedure, HALL said that 

he allowed LEWINSKY into the guard shack because it was raining. 

LEWINSKY called CURRIE several times, but CURRIE did not answer. 

According to HALL, LEWINSKY had asked HALL if he knew 

where CURRIE was. HALL proffered to LEWINSKY that maybe CURRIE 

was giving a tour to ELEANOR MONDALE. LEWINSKY became upset at 

this news. HALL said that at some point CURRIE came out to speak 

to LEWINSKY. At some point later, CURRIE called HALL and said 

that she did not want to see LEWINSKY. HALL told LEWINSKY and 

she got upset and left with her gifts. 

PURDIE and WILLIAMS then went to see CURRIE. WILLIAMS 

advised it was USSS policy not to tell the White House staff the 

name of an officer involved in an incident like this one. 

WILLIAMS told CURRIE that LEWINSKY may have seen MONDALE and made 

the connection between CURRIE and MONDALE. 

CURRIE said it was okay and advised that she would 

notify the President. CURRIE told WILLIAMS not to tell anyone 

about the incident. CURRIE also said that there could be 

disciplinary action taken if word of this incident got out. 

WILLIAMS advised that the first time he met with CURRIE 

on December 6, 1997, they met in CURRIE's office with the door 

closed at CURRIE's request. The first meeting lasted five 

minutes. The door to the Oval Office was closed and WILLIAMS 

does not know if MONDALE was in the Oval Office. 
4532 

OIC-3021 Rev. 8- 19-94) 

29D-OIC-LR-35363 

Continuation of OK-302 of KEITH WILLIAMS .on 05/18/98 . Page L 

WILLIAMS advised the second time he met with CURRIE, 

PURDIE was also present. WILLIAMS advised that CURRIE was less 

upset after she received WILLIAMS' explanation. WILLIAMS advised 

that MONDALE was in the Oval Office during WILLIAMS' meeting with 

CURRIE. WILLIAMS advised this second meeting with CURRIE lasted 

about ten minutes. 

After this meeting with CURRIE, WILLIAMS walked past 

CHINERY's post and asked CHINERY for a computer printout showing 

the time MONDALE entered the White House. WILLIAMS had no 

further conversation with CHINERY until the following Monday. 

WILLIAMS advised he spoke to WILLIAMS on Monday, but 

did not talk about the gist of WILLIAMS' conversation with 

CURRIE. CHINERY told WILLIAMS that CURRIE told CHINERY to tell 

WILLIAMS that everything was going to be okay. CHINERY also told 

WILLIAMS that LEWINSKY came into the White House at some point on 

December 6, 1997. 

WILLIAMS advised that HALL was not disciplined for his 

actions on December 6, 1997. &aOvOH 
4533 

__----------- x 

Grand Jury Room NO. 3 

united scate~ District Court 

:5r the District Of CoLti:a 

333 consticut1on *venue, H.H. 

Washington, D.C. 20001 

Thursday, July 23, 1998 

presence of a full quorum of Grand Jury 97-2, impneled 

on September 19, 1997, commencing at 11:23 a.,n., before: 

SOLOEK)N “. WISENBERG 

JACKIE n. BENNETT JR. 

Deputy Independent CounSeL 

MARY ANHE WIRTH 

EDWARD PAGE 

TIMOTHY SUSANIN 

Associate Inde~endenr Counsel 

Suite 490 irorth 

Washingcon, D.C. 20004 

eaqe ; 

CONTENTS 

WITHLSS: Page 

Keith William9 3 

GRAND JURY EXHIBIT: WarkedlIdentitied 

KIM-1 Diagram Of portion or 28 

fl.rsr floor of West wing 

In re: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Pager” July - 23.1 _ 998 

Page 3 

1 PROCEEDINGS 

2 Whereupon, 

3 KEITH WILLIAMS 

4 was called as a witness and, after being first duly sworn by 

5 the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and t&lied 

6 as follows: 

7 EXAMINATION 

8 BY SlR. WISENBERG: 

9 Q Would you have a seat, please, and state your name 

0 for the record, please. 

1 A My name is Keith Williams. 

2 Q And tell us your title, please. 

3 A I’m with the -- I’m a sergeant with the 

4 United States Secret Service, Uniformed Division. 

5 Q Okay. And shall we refer to you as 

6 Officer Williams, or Sergeant Williams? 

7 A Sergeant wilhrns. 

8 Q Sergeant Williams. My name is Sol Wise&erg, and 

9 I’m an attorney with the Office of the Independent Counsel. 

0 To my left is Mary Anne Wti. She’s an attorney 

,I for the Office of Independent Counsel. 

‘2 To my right is Ed Page. He’s an attorney for the 

:3 Office of Independent Counsel. 

:4 This is the Grand Jury reporter, and these are the 

15 ladies and gentlemen of the Grand Jury. 

Page 4 

1 This is a federal Grand Jury impaneled by the 

2 United States District Court for the District of Columbia 

3 investigating, among other things, wbetber certain 

4 individuals committed crimes in connection with the 

5 civil case of Jones versus Clinton. Do you understand? 

6 A Yes. Yes, sir. 

7 Q I’m going% talk briefly about rights and 

8 responsibilities as a Grand Jury witness, and I’ll ask you 

9 for audible responses, rather than a sbalce of the head - 

0 A Yes, sir. 

1 Q -- to see if you understand what I’m saying. 

2 Let the record reflect that Jackie Bennett of our 

3 office -- the Office of Independent Counsel -- has just 

4 entered the Grand Jury room. 

5 First of all, though you do not have the 

6 right to have a lawyer in the Grand Jury room with youi 

7 you have a right, Sergeant Williams, to have a lawyer outside 

8 and to confer with that lawyer, if you need to. Do you 

9 understand that? 

0 A Yes, sir. 

1 Q And do you have such a lawyer here today? 

2 A Yes, sir. 

3 Q Can you tell us who that lawyer is. 

4 A Mike hibig, sir. 

5 Q Okay. And if you need to confer with him about a 

Page 1 - Page 1 
Page 

1 matter, let us :know, and you can go out and do SO. 

2 A Yes, sir. 

3 Q Do you understand? 

4 A Yes, sir. 

5 Q You understand that you took an oath to tell the 

6 truth and that you have to tell the truth; is that -- 

1 A Yes, sir. 

8 Q You understand the implications of taking an oath 

9 to tell the truth? 

0 A Yes, sir. Yes. 

1 Q You have certain privileges. You have a privilege 

2 again self-incrimination -- or a right against 

3 self-incrimination. Do you know what that is? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q So if a truthful answer to a question would tend to 

6 incriminate you, you could take the privilege on that. Do 

7 you understand that? 

8 A Yes, sir. 

9 Q As an example, if I ask you, “Did you rob the 

10 Gotham City Bank on April 3, 1986,” and it just so happened 

II that you did -- a truthful answer would be “Yes” -- you could 

:2 invoke the privilege. Do you understand that? 

13 A Yes, sir. 

14 Q There is a marital communications privilege. There 

‘5 is an attorney-client privilege. If I ask you a question 

Page 7 

I 1 approximately June of 1988; is that right? 

2 A Yes, ma’am. 

3 Q And from 1994 through 1996, you were assigned to ! 

4 what is known as the G-4 post in the East Wing of the 

5 White House? 

6 A Yes, ma’am. 

7 Q And what is the G-4 post, just briefly? 

8 A It’s an entry post for visitors coming in through 

9 the East Wing of the White house. 

0 Q And in April 1996, you were promoted to the rank of 

1 sergeant; is that correct? 

2 A Yes, ma’am. 

3 Q And at that point, you spent one year unassigned; 

4 is that right? 

5 A Yes, ma’am. 

6 Q And then in May of 1997, you were assigned to the 

7 Northwest Gate; is that right? 

8 A Yes, ma’am. 

9 Q And is that your curmnt assignment? 

:0 A Yes, ma’am. 

1 Q And you also do magnetometer duty? 

2 A As an officer, not as a sergeant. 

3 Q You don’t know that anymore? 

4 A No, ma’am. 

5 Q Okay. And magnetometer duty, just for the record, 

Page 

I is what? 

2 A Magnetometers that go -- wherever the President 

3 goes outside of the White House, we set up magnetometers a 

4 every location that he goes, and we usually -- when I was an 

5 officer, I usually managed all the magnetometer equipment 

6 that go out on the --&-in the road for any type of detail 

7 outside of the White house. 

8 Q And those are basically metal detectors, right? 

9 A Metal detectors, yes. 

0 Q Okay. Now, I’m going to call your attention to an 

1 incident that occurred at the Northwest Gate on approximate 

2 December 6, 1997. Do you remember that? 

3 A Yes, ma’am. 

4 Q All right. And on that date, did you receive a 

5 call from Officer Brent Chinery? 

6 A Yes, ma’am. 

7 Q That was a telephone call, or a radio call? 

8 A A telephone call, ma’am. 

9 Q And can you explain where you were and what the 

0 nature of the call was. 

1 A First, I received a radio call to call 

Page e 

I that you think impinges on those, you can invoke the 

2 privilege or ask to speak to your attorney. Do you 

3 understand that? 

4 A Yes, sir. 

5 Q Aside from those privileges that I’ve mentioned, if 

6 we ask you a question, you have to tell us the truth about 

7 anything we ask. Do you understand that? 

8 A Yes, sir. 

9 Q All tight. And if there’s anything we ask that 

0 you don’t understand -- it’s too legalese or something like 

1 that -- feel free to ask us to rephrase it. We’ll be happy 

2 to do so -- or in my case, to attempt to do so. 

3 A All right, sir. 

4 Q Do you understand? 

5 A Yes, sir. 

6 Q All right. Any questions about your rights and 

7 responsibilities as I’ve explained them to you? 

8 A No, sir. 

9 MR. WISENBERG: All right. I’m going to have my 

0 colleague, Ms. Wirth, take over the questioning. 

1 BY MS. WIRTH: 

2 Q You are a sergeant with the Secret Service, 

3 correct? 

4 A Yes, ma’am. 

5 Q And you’ve been with the Secret Service since 

2 Officer Chinery at --: a _ . At that 

3 time, I just walked into our sergeant’s oflice, which is in 

4 the Old Executive Office Building. His conversation -- I - 

5 called him, and he told me that I needed to respond to the 

In rc: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-PagcB’ July 23,1998 

I 

Page 5 - Page 8 
4535 

In I-C: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-PagcM 

, Page 9 

July 23,1998 

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I l\.est Wing, and he would let me know, once I got there. 

2 Q Okay. So did you do that? 

3 A Yes, I did. 

4 Q And did you talk to Officer Chinery at that time? 

5 A Yes, I did. 

6 Q And did he tell you anything? 

7 A He -- when I -- before -- to get the office -- once 

8 I got to Officer Chinery, he told me that Mrs. Currie wanted 

9 to talk to me about an incident. I asked him what was going 

0 on, and he said that it was about a incident that happened at 

1 the Northwest Gate and that I needed to go in there and talk 

2 to her about it. 

3 Q Do you know Mrs. Curie, by the way? 

4 A Yes, I do. 

5 Q Through your work at the White House? 

6 A Through my work at the White House. 

7 Q Okay. So basically, what you’re saying is that 

8 Officer Chinery, when he spoke to you on telephone, didn’t 

9 tell you the nature of whatever had come up? 

0 A Not at the moment. 

1 Q But he told you in person when he went to see him? 

2 A Yes, ma’am. 

3 Q What did you do next? Did you go to the 

4 Northwest Gate, or did you go see Betty Currie? 

5 A Before I went to the Northwest Gate, I called 

Page 10 

1 knowledge, she was -- she was sitting down then. 

2 Q Did you sit down, too? 

3 A No, ma’am. I stood the whole time. 

4 Q Okay. .4nd do you remember what she said to you? 

5 A She told me that there was a problem at the 

6 Northwest Gate, and that she couldn’t understand why 

7 someone would tell where the President was and whom he 

8 had in his office. 

9 Q Okay. And how did she seem at that point, in terms 

0 of manner? 

1 A She was very upset. She looked like she was about 

2 to cry. 

3 Q Okay. Did she mention the President at all at 

4 that time? 

5 A- At that moment, she told me that the President was 

6 very upset and that he wanted something done behind why an 

7 officer would tell his business. 

8 Q Okay. And did Betty Cut-tie tell you what the 

9 officer at the gate was supposed to have said? 

0 A At that moment, she did. She told me that 

I Monica Lewinsky was calling her at her desk and was telling 

2 her that the officer -- Officer Hall -- told her that she 

3 (sic) was in the Oval Office with Mrs. Eleanor Mondale. 

4 Q That who was in the office? 

5 A Eleanor Mondale. 

Page 12 

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2 

2 

1 - before I went into Mrs. Cut-tie’s office, 1 called the 

2 Northwest Gate, and I asked the officers could they tell me 

3 what -- if anything happened. And at that time, they told -- 

4 all of them told me no, nothing happened. 

5 d Who did you speak to -- do you remember? 

6 A I think -- I can‘t recall, but I think -- I 

7 remember talking to Officer Hall - Brian Hall -- and there 

8 was another officer there - 1 can’t pronounce his name. 

9 Q Gary Niednviecki? 

0 A Niedzwiecki. 

1 Q Okay. And you spoke to him, too. 

2 A Yes, ma’am. 

3 Q And each of those two officers told you that 

4 nothing had happened, to their knowledge? 

5 A At that time, nothing had happened, to their 

6 knowledge. 

7 Q Okay. So what did you do next? 

S A ‘Then i proceeded and knocked on the door of 

9 Mrs. Currie’s office, and then she told me to come inside and 

o closed the door behind. 

1 Q And was it just the two of you in the office at 

2 that time? 

3 A Yes, ma’am 

4 Q And was she seated or standing? 

5 A At that time, I can’t recall. To my best to my 

1 Q With who? 

2 A With the President. 

3 Q Okay. So Officer Hall is supposed to have said 

4 that to Monica Lewinsky? 

5 A Yes,ma’am. 

6 Q Okay. And did Betty Cunie tell you whether 

7 Monica spoke to & - Beny Currie - or to the President, 

8 or to both? 

9 A I can’t recall. I do recall her saying that 

0 -- that - that - sk said Monica talked to her -- to 

I Mrs. Curie. Sk said that sk had talked to her. 

2 And in the meantime, while we were talking, the 

3 phone rang again, and on the phone you can see a phone number 

4 -- which I couldn’t see -- and then Mrs. Cunie told me 

5 again that that was Monica calling again. 

6 Q Did Mrs. Currie pick up the phone? 

7 A No, sk did nof not while I was in there. 

8 Q Sk let it ring? 

9 A She let it ring. 

0 Q All right. Is tbm anything else about that 

1 particular conversation with Mrs. Currie that you remember? 

2 A To the best of u~y knowledge,-again, she was very 

3 upset. and sk told me that if I didn’t find out what was 

4 going on. someone could be fired behind it. 

5 Q All right. Anything else you recall? 

Page 9 - page 12 
4536 

Pa,? 15 

1 A I can’t recall if he did or not. 

2 Q Okay. When you say he confessed -- what did he 

In rc: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-PagcTM July 23, 1998 

, 1 

Page 1: 

1 A I can’t recall anything else. 

2 Q Okay. What did you do next? 

3 A At that time, I told her I’d find out what NW 

4 going on, and I started to leave the room. 

5 Q Okay. When you left. where did YOU go? 

6 A By Officer Brent -- I have to go b> 

7 Officer Chinery’s desk. 

8 Q9 A Yes, ma’am. 

0 Q Did you have a conversation with Officer Chinery at 

1 that time -- do you remember? 

2 A I can’t recall if I did or not. 

3 Q What do you remember doing next? 

4 A Going out to the Northwest Gate. And then I 

5 confronted the officers, and I said, “Look, you guys need 

6 to tell me what was going on out here because there’s an 

7 incident in the White House, and I want to know what’s goin! 

8 on, or somebody is going to be fired behind this.” 

9 Q Okay. Who didyoutalk to? 

0 A 1 think it was Officer Chinery -- I mean, excuse 

1 me, Officer Hall and Officer Niedzwiecki. 

2 Q And did you ask them what happened at that point? 

3 A Yes, I did. 

4 Q And let’s start with Officer Hall. Did you ask him 

5 what happened? 

Page 14 

1 A When I did that, that’s when Offica Hall confcsscd 

2 and said that be had a conversation with the young lady at 

3 tbc post. 

4 Q What did be telf you? 

5 A HctoldmethatMrs.-atthetime,hesaid 

6 that-tbathektbexcomeintotbcpostandthetwoof 

7 t&m wean talking about - she was talking to bim about she 

8 knewpeopleintbeWhiteHousc;~tsheuscdtoworkthere, 

9 and that she bad gifts for tbc President - for Mrs. Currie. 

0 AndthenBriantoldmctbatbc-bcsaid 

1 bebadsccubertberebcforeandtbatbcbadseenber 

2 with Mrs. Currie, so bc picked - got on the phone and called 

3 Mrs. Currie’s office to let her know tbat Mrs. Lewinsky 

4 was outside waiting. 

5 Q And what else did he tcU you? 

6 A And t&n be phoned her and tbcn the pbonc rang, but 

7 it didn’t - she didn’t answer tbz phone. And then he told 

8 Mrs.-- Monica Lewinsky that she would probably giving a tour 

9 to Mrs. Mondale if she wasn’t in the office. 

3 Q That Setty Currie would bc given giving a tour -- 

1 A Yes. 

2 Q -- to-Eleanor Mondale? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Okay. Did be tell you wbctbcr Monica had asked any 

5 questions about the. President’s whereabouts? 

3 

3 tell you that led you to believe that he said something -- ( 

4 if you did bz!ieve that -- that he said something that he 

5 shouldn’t have, or -- 

6 A He thought at the moment that he had said sometbg 

7 that he shou!dn’t have to her. Because, again, I said 

8 “confess” because at first, when I asked him the question 

9 the first timd, he said nothing happened. 

0 Q Okay. But then he told you that he had said 

1 to Monica Lewinsky that Betty Currie might be giving 

2 Eleanor Mondale a tour? 

3 A Yes, ma’am. 

4 Q All right. You said that Off&r Hall let 

5 Monica-tin&y into the post. Is that a trailer you’re 

6 referring to? 

7 A Into a temporary trailer we have set up until a 

8 new -- the permanent Northwest Gate is finished. 

9 Q And that’s not normally done with respect to 

0 guests; is that right? 

,I A Yes, ma’am. 

.2 Q Do you remember whether it was raining that day - 

3 if there was anything wrong with the weather? 

4 A If I can recall, I think it was raining -- not a 

5 hard rain, just a mist. But it was cold outside. 

Pqe lb 

1 Q Okay. Did you talk to Officer Niedzwiecki, 

2 as well? 

3 A I talked to him, as well. 

4 Q Do YOU remember what he said? 

5 A If-afterBrianHallgotthrough,I-Iasked 

6 himthequestion,andhesaidhe~lledherbeingthereand 

7 that Brian Hall told%er that the President and Mrs. Mondale 

8 was in the Oval Office. 

9 Q Okay. So Gay Niedzwiecki told you something 

0 different from what Off&r Hall told you? 

1 A Yes, ma’am. 

2 Q And was Officer Hall in earshot when Off%er 

3 Niedzwiecki told you that? 

4 A No, ma’am 

5 Q so you talked to them separately? 

6 A Yes, ma’am. 

7 Q All right. So did you say anything to Off&r 

8 Hall, once you heard that from Off&r Niedzwiecki? 

9 A Yes, I did. I told him at that point -- hecause I 

0 wanted him to be honest with me, I told him, I said, “You 

1 need to come clean with me and let me know what’s going 0; 

2 because I was just told that if not, thz& somebody can he 

3 fired behind this.” 

4 Q So did Officer Hall tell you any different? 

5 A No. After that, he said he had nothing different. 

Page 13 - Pa:;16 

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In re: Grand Jury Promdings Multi-Page” July 23,1998 

Page 17 Page 14 

1 He said that was the truth. 1 A Ycab, when I did -- on tht: Avenue. 

2 Q Okay. So what did you do then? 2 Q And you know Monica kinsky? 

3 A I called my captain, who was Captain / 3 A Yes. Ido. 

4 Purdie, hecause he was the watch commander of the shift. i 4 Q Okay. 

5 Q Okay. And your supervisor responsibility that day 1 5 A And I told him I was going to tell Mrs. Ctie 

6 was the Northwest Gate? / 6 that Mrs. -- I mean. excuse me. Monica Lewinsky probably saw 

7 A The Northwest Gate, as well as the north grounds. 7 hh Mondale come into the booth - to our gate, and just 

8 Q Okay. And Captain Purdie’s responsibilities 8 assumed that she was with the President. 

9 were what? 9 Q Okay. So your plan was, tbcn, to tell Mrs. Currie 

0 A For the whole complex of the White House. 10 that you, yourself, bad seen Monica Lewinsky near tbc gate 

1 Q So you called Captain Purdie on the phone? On 11 and that you supposed tbat she, herself, may have been 

2 the radio? 12 Eleanor Mondale and put two and two together bers&? 

3 A I called him on the phone and told -- and I asked 13 A Yes, ma’am. 

4 him to respond to the Northwest Gate ASAP. 14 Q All right. And that wasn’t strictly tbe truth, 

5 Q And did he do that? 15 right?. 

6 A Yes, he did, ma’am. 16 A It was strictly wasn’t the truth, other than - & 

7 Q And when he arrived there, what happened? 17 only part was that I assumed that sbc would have done that 

8 A I -- I told him about the incident -- and we 18 because I -- I saw her out on the Avenue. 

9 had Officer Hall in a back office with us away from 19 Q And you, in fact, had seen her? 

o Officer Niedzwiecki. And Officer Hall, Captain Purdie, 20 A Yes. 

I and myself went over the scenario again. And then Brian 21 Q But you were doing this to protect Officer Hall? 

2 stuck with his story. 22 A Yes. ma’am. 

3 Q Okay. And what happened next? 23 Q Okay. So and did Captain F’urdie a-? 

4 A And then Captain Purdie and myself proceeded to the 24 A Yes, ma’am. 

5 West Wing, back to Mrs. Currie’s office. 25 Q And, in fact, do you have any kind of practice of 

Pq.e 18 Pqe 20 

I Q Okay. Do you remember whether you stopped and 1 not revealing the name of an officer involved in an incidenf 

2 spoke to Officer Chinery on the way? 2 unless you absolutely have to? 

3 A only to ask if -- I can’t recall. I -- I can’t 3 A Yes, ma’am. 

I recall whether or not if I talked to Chineq then or not. 4 Q And that’s what you wge following here? 

5 Q Are you friendly with Officer Chinery? 5 A Ycs,ma’am. 

5 A Ye&wean?. 6 Q Was Officer Hall new at that time? 

r Q Okay. What happened next then, that you remember? 7 A Yes, ma’&. He - sbc - be was - he bad only 

1 A We went and saw Mi-s. Cunie, knocked on the door, 8 been on the job about probably a year and a half. 

9 and then the captain and myself, we both went back into 9 Q Okay. AU right. So when youwcntto 

0 her offtce. 10 Betty Currie’s off&, you said you went in, and did 

1 Q And were you alone with Mrs. Currie at that point 11 she shut the door? You shut the - 

2 -- you and Captain Purdie? 12 A Yes, ma’am. 

3 A Just us three were in there. 13 Q She did? And at that point, was she seated still, 

4 Q And what do you remember happened? 14 or standing? 

5 A She asked me what happened. The captain -- can I 15 A At that point, sbe sat - she went back and 

5 go back. 16 sat down. 

7 Q Mm-hmm? 17 Q And you and Captain Purdie were. standing? 

3 A Before we went back, we asked Officer Hall to leave 18 A Yes. ma’am. 

? -- leave the office. And then the captain asked me what was 19 Q And what did she say at that point? 

1 I going to tell her. 20 A Sbe asked me did I have any information. And &n 

I I told her I was going to -- I told him that I 2 1 I told her tbc story I just told you. 

2 would tell* her that I saw Mrs. Lewinsky outside earlier, no 22 Q Okay. And what did sbc. say-&en you told ber &at 

3 more than 15 minutes prior to her coming to the gate, ~CCZRIS~ 23 you. yourself, bad seen Monica L.&n&y, et cetera? What did 

4 I had to do my rounds in the north grounds. 24 she say? 

5 Q And you, in fact, had seen her? 25 A At first, she said that still doesn’t explain why 

-- -- 

Page 17 - Page 20 
4538 

In rc: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-PagcTM July 23, 1998 

Page 2 

I he (sic) would know who was in the Oval Office. And I told 

2 her again, I said I saw her on the Avenue prior, and maybe 

3 she assumed that the two were together. 

4 Q And did hfrs. Cunie Seem to accept that? 

5 A My personal opinion, no, but she -- she said she 

6 would tell the President that. 

7 Q Okay. HO\V did she: seem -- Mrs. Currie -- in 

8 relation to how she had szrmed the first time you saw her? 

9 A She was a little more calmer. She was still upset, 

0 but she sort of calmed down a little bit. 

1 Q Okay. Now, during that visit with Mrs. Currie, did 

2 you see the President? 

3 A No, ma’m I didn’t. 

4 Q Do you know whether Captain Purdie? 

5 A I don’t know if he did or not, ma’am. 

6 Q Did he leave the room at any point? 

7 A He left the room with me, and I went back out to 

8 the post. Then -- and then he went back -- I assume he went 

9 back to his office. 

0 Q Okay. So to your knowledge, Captain Purdie did not 

1 see the President at that point? 

2 A To my knowledge, I did not know if he saw him. 

3 Q All right. And do you know whether you spoke to 

4 Officer Chinery on your way out? 

5 A I think the captain and I, when we left the 

Page 22 

I office, we talked to Officer Chinery then. And I asked 

2 Officer Chinery to give me a copy -- he has a computer 

3 at his desk that reads whenever a visitor will come into 

4 the complex. 

5 Andatthattime,weaskedto--1wantedtosee 

5 what time that Mrs. Eleanor Mondale came into the complex. 

7 And be gave me a copy of that. 

3 Q Okay. Getting back to your -- I want to ask you 

? about your two visits to Betty Currie that you’ve testified 

1 about. The first one you went alone -- 

I A Mm-hmm. 

2 Q -- and the second one you went with 

3 Captain Purdie. On either of those visits, did you 

t look at the Oval Off%ze? 

j A From my view, yes, I could see the Oval Office -- 

j the door. 

1 Q On both occasions? 

s A Thedoor, yes, ma’am. 

a Q Okay. And was that door open or closed? 

1 A The first time I went in, it was closed. Before I 

I left the first time, the door was cracked. 

) Q Okay. Cracked open? 

I A Yes, ma’am? 

I Q And what happened the second? 

i A The second visit, it was -- it was 

1 

1 

I 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

2 

2 

2 

2 

2 

2 

, 

, 

11 

1 

1: 

1. 

11 

I: 

Ir 

I’ 

II 

l! 

2( 

2. 

2: 

2: 

24 

21 

Pq 23 

I closed completeiy. 

2 Q Both when you came and when you left? 

3 A Yes, masm. ’

4 Q Did you ever KZ Eleanor Mondale? 

5 A No, ma’am. I -- I never saw her coming or leaving 

6 Q All right. So after you got the printout from 

7 Officer Chinery. did you look at it? 

8 A Yes, maam. ’

9 Q And what did it show? 

0 A It showed the time when she came into the compla 

1 Q Meaning Eleanor Mondale? 

2 A Yes, ma’am. And right now, I couldn’t recall 

3 the time. 

4 Q Do you have any rqcollection as to how recent it 

5 was fro& the time you saw the report to when she had tived 

6 -- how long she was in the White House at that point? 

7 A -1 -- I -- I’m not certain. I would say about 

8 30 minutes. 

9 Q Okay. And she had not left as of -- 

0 A No. 

1 Q -- the printing of that report? 

2 A I can’t recall. I can’t recall. I don’t know if I 

3 asked Chinery if she left or not. I can’t recall because I 

4 was kind of upset about what was going on. 

5 Q Did you keep that report? 

Page 24 

1 A No, ma’am. I threw in our bum bag as soon as I 

2 got to the Northwest Gate. 

3 Q Okay. Do you nzmember whether you told 

4 Off&~ Chineay w&t had happened in your visit with 

5 Betty Cunie along with Captain Purciic? 

6 A IthinkIrccallUngOfflcerChineqthatsbc 

7 wanted to know v&a&as going on and that she was veq upsa 

8 Q AU right. And was Captain Purdie present when you 

9 told Officer Chineay that? 

0 A Yes,ma’am 

I Q AU right. Now, what happened next? After you got 

2 that printout and you looked at it, what else happened? 

3 A At that time, w looked at the prinf saw the 

4 time. I said, ‘Well - ” I told tbe captain then, I said, 

5 “We& it concurs with what I was talking about from the 

6 time that Mrs. Lzwinsky was outside, that she could possibly 

7 have se.en Mrs. Mondale go into the complex.” 

8 Q Okay. And that was your purpose in seeing 

3 the printout? 

I A Yeqma’am. 

1 Q All right. Did you have any further t&s at that 

2 point with anybody back at the Northwest Gate? 

-- 

3 A Two of the officers, and telling them that Mrs. 

I -- excuse me. I’ll go back, because Mrs. Cunie told us 

S before we left, if WC kept it quiet. nothing else would 

Page 21 - PagF74 

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4539 

Pqe 77 

1 and I left around -- yes, around 1:30. I never heard an! 

2 more about that. 

3 Q Do you know whether Captain Purdie had any fmher 

4 conversations with Betty Currie? 

5 A At the time, no, I -- I don’t know. I didn’t knou 

6 if he had any more -- any more conversation or not. 

7 Q Do you know whether Captain Purdie ever saw thy 

In rc: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-PageM July 23, I998 I 

Page 25 

1 happen about it. 

2 SO WC went back to the post to inform the officers 

3 to keep their mouth closed about what had occurred. 

4 Q Okay. So in your second visit with Betty Currie, 

5 can you tell us to the best of your memory what her words 

6 were when she mentioned or said if you keep it quiet -- what 

7 do you remember she said? 

8 A She just said as far as disciplinary action, if we 8 President that day? 

9 would keep it quiet and not tell a lot of people what had 9 A No, I don’t know that. 

1 0 happened, then nothing else. would happen. 0 Q Okay. Do you know if Monica Lewinsky ever made it 

1 1 Q Okay. Did she say whether she had any 1 into the White House that day? 

1 2 authorization from anyone to say that to you? 2 A That day -- after I left the next day, I came back, 

1 3 A No, ma’am. 3 I think -- it was on a weekend, so it happened that Saturday, 

1 4 Q Did she ever mention the President’s name? 4 and my days off are Saturdays and Sunday. So I do recall 

1 5 A She mentioned to me that he -- that -- she said she 5 when I came back Monday, Officer Chinery told me that she 

1 6 couldn’t understand why an officer would tell a President’s 6 did come into the complex. 

1 7 -- because he was very upset about it, and she wanted -- he 7 Q Okay. Going back to the day of the actual 

1 8 wanted something done behind it. 8 incident, after you spoke to the people at the Northwest 

1 9 Q She told you that on the first visit? 9 Gate, you know, and told him, you know, basically, to 

2 10 A Yes, ma’am. 10 keep it quiet and nothing would happen, did you speak to 

2 !I Q Did she say anything about the President during the II Officer Chinery again that day? 

2 12 second visit? 12 A No more that day, ma’am. 

2 !3 A Not -- not that I can recall, ma’am, other than 13 Q Do you ever recall Officer Chinery that day 

2 !4 saying again that someone could be fired behind this. 14 telling you that he had spoken to Betty Currie again and 

2 !5 Q She did say that the second visit? 15 that Betty Currie had said that Chinery should tell you that 

Page 26 Pqe 28 

1 A Yes, ma’am. 1 everything was going to be okay? 

2 Q But she ended by saying if it was kept quiet -- 2 A Yes, that was later on in the week. Tbat was later 

3 A Nothing else would happen. 3 on in tbe wxk. 

4 Q Okay. So did you pass that along to anyone? 4 Q Okay. Can you tell us about that. 

5 A I passed it along to the officers on the gate. I 5 A Only thing I asked - Cbinery said, “I need to talk 

6 told them that they need to keep this quiet; that they need 6 to you.” And I said, “About what?” He said, ‘What happened 

7 not to say anything else about it, or we could hear something 7 over the weekend.* And I said, “What about it?” And then 

8 from this further down the line if they talked. 8 be said, “Mrs. Cunie told me to let - to inform you that 

9 Q Okay. Who did you tell that to? 9 everything was okay and just to keep quiet about it.” 

I 0 A I told that to Officer Hall, Officer Niedzwiecki, 0 Q Okay. And you said that was within the week of the 

1 1 and at the time, there was another officer named Officer 1 incident happening? 

1 2 Porter, who was not there at the gate, but that showed up 2 A If I recall, I think it was within tbc week of 

I 3 after we came back from our second visit, because he was on 3 tbatbappezling. 

1 4 his response time. 4 h4R. WISENBERG: Can I ask a couple, because I bave 

1 5 Q Okay. So he wasn’t there when Monica came through? 5 togo. 

1 6 A No, ma’am. 6 MS. WIRTH: Yeah. go abead. 

1 7 Q But you told him, anyway? 7 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

1 8 A Yes, ma’am. 8 Q Sergeant Williams, I’m going to show you what’s 

I 9 Q Because he knew about it. 9 been mark& as KWM-I, a Grand Jury exhibit. And it purports 

2 0 A Yes, ma’am. 0 to be. a scheme of a portion of the West Wing, around the 

2 1 Q Okay. 1 Oval Office area. You’ll see there’s both typed or computer 

2 2 A Only because everybody was talking about it then. 2 printing on it, and somebody bas band-printed some things: is 

2 3 Q Okay. Now, did you have any further communications 3 that correct? 

2 4 with Betty Currie that day? 4 A Yes. 

2 5 Q And you didn’t do any of that printing, correct? 5 A No, ma’am. I got off -- my shift ended at 1:30, 

Page 25 - fige 28 
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In rc: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Pagcm 

Page 21 g/ 

1 A That’s the first I’ve seen this. 

- L Q Okay. You had menriorxd that you went into 

3 Betty Cun-ie’s office. 

.l A Yes. sir. 

5 Q And based on infonnation our investigators 

6 have obtained, Betty Currie has a desk in a reception 

7 area outside the Oval Office at L% 1 o’clock door, but 

8 we’ve also heard some information that she will sometimes 

9 sit in Nancy Hemreich’s office. 

0 Whenz. was she on the day &at you met with her and 

1 she closed the door? 

2 A This is the hallway. I came through the door. and 

3 I was in area right here (indicating). 

4 Q Okay. So you were in the reception axa? 

5 A Yes. sir. 

6 Q If the Oval Office were a clock -- 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q -- them would be a door at 1 o’clock on that clock 

9 that takes you out to this Reception Area 1 on the map? 

0 A Yes, sir. 

1 Q Okay. So did she close the door right bere? 

2 A Right here (indicating). 

3 Q Okay. And I’m pointing to a door that is almost 

4 to the end of the arrow. You see. there’s a area marked 

5 ‘Walkway 2,” and somebody has drawn an arrow through that; 

July 23, 1998 

1 

Page 3 1 

1 BY MS. WIRTH: 

2 Q And the second visit? 

3 A The second visit. the door was closed. 

4 Q Both when you came and when you left? 

5 A Yes, ma’am. 

6 MS. WIRTH: All right. 

7 MR. WISENBERG: Give me just a moment to confer 

8 with my colleague, because I have been summoned somewbcre. 

9 MS. WIRTH: Yeah, sure. 

:0 MR. WISENBERG: Pardon me for just a minute. 

,I (Brief interruption to proceedings.) 

2 +*+ 

3 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

4 Q Thank you very much. Pardon me for that. 

5 ting your first visit, did the President come out 

6 and talk to you at all or witness, to your knowledge, your 

7 discussion with Betty Currie? 

8 A NO, be did not. He didn’t -- as far as I’m 

9 concerned, he did not come into tbe room at any point. I 

0 never saw him. 

1 Q Okay. At any time during this day, was he face to 

2 face with you? 

3 A No, sir. 

4 Q Okay. Did you ever tell anybody that in any way 

5 related to this incident that the President himself was irate 

: 

Page 3C 

1 is that correct? 

2 A Yes, sir. 

3 Q Right before that arrow ends, there’s a door, and 

4 there’s an “0.” The arrow goes right through that; is 

5 that correct? 

6 A Yes, sir. 

7 Q That’s the door that she closed? 

8 A Yes, sir. 

9 MS. WIRTH: Can I ask a question? 

0 MR. WISENBERG: Yeah. 

1 BY MS. WIRTH: 

2 Q And when you said that the door to the Oval Office 

3 was closed when you fust got there and later it was cracked 

4 open -- it’s the door at 1 o’clock -- 

5 A Yes, ma’am. 

6 Q -- that you were referring to? 

7 A Yes, ma’am. 

8 MS. WIRTH: Okay. 

3 A JUROR: Can you repeat that? The first visit, 

1 the door was cracked, and the second visit the door was 

1 closed -- or was it the other way around? 

2 THE WITNESS: The first visit, when I walked in the 

3 room, the door was closed. But by the time I left the room, 

4 the door was cracked. 

Page 3~ 

1 and was literally face to face with you over this incident? 

2 A No. I did mention to Brian Hall at the gate that 

3 be needed to talk to me because the President had - had said 

4 that be wanted something done behind this. And I - I did 

5 that because at the moment before he confessed to me, nobody 

6 would say anything about what happened, and I wanted him to 

7 talk to me. And then & started talking. 

8 BY MS. WIRTH: 

9 Q So what did you say to Brian Hall to make him talk? 

0 A I told him - I told him, I says, “L.ook, you need 

1 to come clean with me and tell me what’s going on, because 

2 the President wants - wants something done behind this. He 

3 wants somebody fued.” 

4 Q So you were leading him to believe, you thought, 

5 that you had spoken to the President? 

6 A Yes, ma’am. 

7 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

8 Q Did you lead anyone else to believe that you had 

3 spoken to the P&dent? 

3 A No. 

1 Q Okay. I’m not saying that this has happened, but 

2 assuming somebody has told the gmnd jurors that you told 

3 them that the President was literally face to face with you 

1 and said he wanted something done about this running off at 

5 the mouth -- assuming somebody has told the Grand Jury that, 

I ‘

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In re: Grand Jury Proceedings MultiPage 33 

1 they arc mistaken? 

2 A Yes, sir. 

3 Q Okay. Can you think of any reason why -- you said 

4 that you said it to Hail to kind of shake him up, right? 

5 A Yes, sir. 

6 Q Can you think of any reason why anybody would get 

7 that misapprehension from talking to you? 

8 A I can’t think of any reason why. 

9 Q You’re certain that you didn’t see him? 

11 0 A I’mcertainIdidnotseehim. 

1 1 MR. WISENBERG: Okay. That’s all I have. I have 

1 2 to run, and I’ll be back. 

1 3 BY MR. PAGE: 

1 4 Q Officer Williams, my name is Ed Page. I believe 

1 5 Mr. Wise&erg introduced us when your examination started a 1 

1 6 while back. 

1 7 I wanted to ask you -- you said that during 

1 8 the one of these visits with Betty Currie right outside 

1 9 the Oval Offlice, that when you arrived, the door was 

2 0 shut, c.TmTect? 

2 I A Yes, sir. 

2 2 Q And that’s the door into the Oval Office that 

2 3 you’re talking about? 

2 4 A Yes, sir. 

2 5 Q And when you left at that first meeting -- is 

Page 34 

1 that correct? 

2 A Yes, sir. 

3 Q -- the door was cracked? 

4 A yes, sir. 

5 Q How did it get cracked? 

6 A I -- I could not recall. All I know is when I 

7 fti got in the room talking to her, I glanced at the door, 

8 and it was closed. And in the meantime, while I was talking 

9 to her, before I left, I looked up, the door was cracked. 

1 0 Q And you have a specific recollection about that? 

1 1 A Yes, I do, because I looked at the door. 

1 2 Q Did you hear the doorknob work and somebody go to 

1 3 pull the door open -- or what do you recall? 

1 4 A All I can recall is in our conversation talking to 

1 5 her at first, when I first got into the room, it was closed, 

1 6 and by the time tbe conversation ended, I looked up again, 

1 7 and the door was cracked. 

1 8 Q Were you concerned at the time of your first 

1 9 meeting with Ms. Currie that the President might come out 

2 o and speak with you? 

2. I A At fim, I probably was concerned about that. 

2: 2 Q And what was your concern? 

2: 3 A Because I saw how upset Mrs. Currie was when I 

21 Ifirst entered the room. And she told me to close the door, 

21 S and then she told me about she couldn’t understand why 

Pagem July 23, 1998 

Page 3: 5 

e 

1 someone would tell the President’s business and that 

2 he u-z& very upset. 

3 %IR. PAGE: All right. \Vould you mind stepping out 

4 for a moment. 

5 THE WITNESS: Mm-l-mm. 

6 MS. WIRTH: Thank you. 

7 (The witness was excused and recalled.) 

8 *** 

9 FOREPERSON: Mr. Williams, I’d like to remind you 

IO that you are still under oath. 

II THE WITNESS: Yes, ma’am. 

12 FOREPERSON: Mr. Page, I just wanted to make it 

13 knoun and have it on record that we have a quorum, and then 

14 are no unauthorized persons in the Grand Jury room. 

15 BY MR. PAGE: 

16 Q Thank you. 

I7 All right. Officer Williams, before December 6, 

18 1997 -- the date that we’ve been talking about of the 

19 so-called incident at the Northwest Gate involving 

!O Ms. Lswinsky and Eleanor Mondale -- before that date, 

!l had Ektty Currie ever called you before in a similar 

!2 kind of situation? 

!3 A No, sir. 

!4 BY MS. WIRTH: 

!5 Q Has that ever happened since? 

Page 30 

1 A No, ma’am. 

2 Q Have you ever bad any fur&x conversations 

3 with Beny Cunie about tbis incident after that date - 

4 afterDeccmbez6? 

5 A No, ma’am. 

6 Q No? 

7 A other tban%bat Officer Cbinery told me that week, 

8 that it was - eveaything was okay, as long as we kept quiet. 

9 Q And that was supposedly a message from Betty? 

:O A Yes, ma’am. 

II Q But other than that indirect message, you’ve have 

12 bad no direct conversations with ba about this? 

13 A No, ma’am. 

14 BY MR. PAGE: 

15 Q During your two meetings with Betty Cunie on this 

I6 day that we’ve been talking about, was Eleanor Mondale in the 

I7 Oval Offxe during either of your meetings? 

18 A I can’t tell you that because I never saw her come 

19 into tbc complex, other than checking with Officer Chincry’s 

!O desk. And I never saw her coming or leaving. I could not 

1 tell you if sbe was in thea-e or not. I actually did not know z 

2 her whzreabouts. 

3 Q During your two meetings with &tty Currie on tbis 

4 day that we’ve been talking about. did Betty Cunie. ever T 

5 leave tlx arca -- her office -- leave the room and come back? 

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1 A No. sir. 

2 Q So she was with you the entire time during these 

3 two meetings? 

4 A Yes. sir. 

5 Q Were there any other meetings that we haven’t 

6 discussed between you and Betty Currie on this day, Saturday 

7 December 6, 1997? 

8 A No, sir, no other meetings. 

9 Q Before this Saturday -- December 6, 1997 -- had 

0 President Clinton ever handled a similar situation that arose 

I that day in the manner that it was handled that day? 

2 A As far as my knowledge, I don’t know anything, not 

3 -- as far as me concerned, no, I’ve been never heen in any 

4 type of situation, other than that day. 

5 Q Have you heard any rumors about any other gate 

6 incidents or other incidents where the President and/or 

7 Ms. Betty Cunie handled the situation in a similar manner? 

8 A Again, as far as I’m -- as far as myself, I never 

9 heard any other rumors about it. 

10 Q At the time you were in the office outside 

!I the Oval Office with Betty Cunie on Saturday, December 6, 

12 1997, did you think that President Clinton was inside the 

!3 Oval Office? 

14 A Yes, sir. 

15 Q And was this during both of your meetings with 

Page 38 

Page 39 1 

1 that Lewinslcy and Jocelyn Jolley were getting transferred out 

2 of the White Mouse a couple of days after before they wez I 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

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1 

1 

1 

2 

2 

2 

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3 actually transferred? 

4 A uh-- 

5 Q Just -- did you hear ivhat I said? 

6 A I heard what you said. but I want to -- 

7 Q Do you understand that? 

8 A But I want to say something about that. 

9 Q Okay. Go ahead. 

IO A Okay. Just to clarify, and it’s Sergeant Williams. 

I1 Q1’mson-y. - 

12 A And it wasn’t before -- a couple of days before; it 

13 was the day before they left. 

;4 Q The question we want to ask you, Sergeant Williams, 

5 is from whom you heard that. 

,6 A There was another officer on that post with me at 

7 work, and was Officer Henderson. 

8 Q And that’s who told you that a couple of days 

9 before they were transferred? 

!O A A day before they were transferred. 

!I Q I’m sorry, a day before they were transferred. 

!2 A And I also talked to Ms. Jolley herself, and she 

13 told me she was leaving the next day. Because I no reason 

14 -- I had no -- no information on anything until I asked 

15 her why. 

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I Betty Cunie? 

2 A Yes, sir. 

3 BY MS. WIRTH: 

4 Q Did you notice any protective &tail people there 

5 that day? 

6 A Yes,ma’am. 

7 Q who? 

8 A I don’t know names. Honestly, I don’t know names. 

9 But they were in front -th his door closed -- the 

0 Oval Office door closed. 

1 Q Do you remember how many there were there? 

2 A If I can recall, there. were three. 

3 Q Do you remember what they looked like? 

4 A Honestly, no, ma’am, because I was trying to get in 

5 and out of there. 

6 Q Was there a uniformed person there? 

7 A I do remember Officer Tyler -- seeing Officer Tyler 

8 -- but I can’t recall who else I saw. 

9 Q That’s Mike Tyler? 

0 A Yes, ma’am. 

!I MS. WIRTH: Okay. 

!2 BY MR. PAGE: 

!3 Q Officer Williams, when you were interviewed at 

!4 the offices of the independent counsel back on May 18, 1998, 

!5 I believe that you said, in substance, that you had heard 

1 Sbe came to me and told me it was hex last 

2 tomorrow. And I asked why, and then she didn’t tell me why. 

3 She just said that she was leaving. 

4 Q Did she say why she didn’t want to teU you why? 

5 A No, she did not. 

6 Q Did you press her - 

7 A No, I did not. - 

8 Q - for information? 

9 A No, I did not. 

0 BY h4S. WIRTH: 

1 Q Have you ever talked to ha about it? 

2 A I talked - not about why sbe was f& but I saw 

3 her on the stmet probably about - I would say close to 

4 about 10 to 11 months later. And actually, sbe stopped me on 

5 street and asked me how I was doing. I asked bad her how she 

6 was doing, wbeaz she was working. I can’t rrzalI where sbe 

7 told me she was working, but never beard nothing about the 

8 incident or anything. 

9 BY MR. PAGE: 

0 Q During tbe same interview back on May 18, 1998, I 

!I believe you said that a couple days afta tbe transfer, you 

!2 had beard that Lcwinsky was banging aropnd the West Wing too 

!3 much and that Evelyn Lieberman bad bad Lewinsky transferred 

!4 to the Pentagon. 

!5 A Now, again, I didn’t bear - I don’t think I recall 

1 

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1 saying about Mrs. Liebezman, but I do recall saying -- 1 A No. 

2 or bearing rumors that she had left and she went to 2 MR. SUSANIN: Thank you. 

3 the Pentagon. 3 BY MR. PAGE: 

4 Q Again, the question would be: From whom did 4 Q I probably asked this before, but &zar with me: 

5 you hear? 5 Did Captain Purdie ever tell you at any time that he had 

6 A That’s generalization. Everybody around the 6 spoken with President Clinton on December 6, 1997? 

7 Uniformed Division of rhe White House was talking about this. 7 A No, he did not. 

8 Q On the same day -- May 18, 1998 -- I believe that 8 Q He’s never mentioned that to you? 

9 you told the interviewing officer -- agent, I should say -- 9 A No, he hasn’t ever mentioned it to me. 

0 that well after Lewinsky was transferred, you bad beard a 10 Q And you don’t have that understanding? 

1 rumor about Lewinsky and the. President being caught in a 11 A I don’t have that understanding. 

2 compromising position in the White House theater. 12 BY MS. WIRTH: 

3 A I told them that I did bear of an incident that 13 Q You never heard it from anybody else? 

4 they were in the - in the - in tbe White House theater, 14 A No, I haven’t. 

5 but not in a uncompromised (sic) position. I just beard that 15 BY MR. PAGE: 

6 tbeywea-ein--thattheywenzintbetheater. Andagain-- 16 Q And that’s not something that you have forgotten? 

7 Q And from whom? 17 A That’s something I have not forgotten. I never 

8 A And again, general information from rumors going 18 knew if he did or not. 

9 around the White House. 19 MR.PAGE: All right. 

0 Q So you can’t recall anybody specifically by name at 20 A JUROR: Do you know Monica Lewinsky? 

1 this time who you learned that from? 21 THE WITNESS: I knew her because I worked in the 

2 A No, sir, I can’t. 22 East Wing. My desk sat right behind the off&s she worked 

3 Q You testified that you bad two visits witb 23 out of, which was government -- govemment -- I mean, excuse 

4 Betty Cunie. on Saturday, December the 6th. 1997, correct? 24 me, congressional affairs -- liaison -- correspondence 

5 A Yes, sir. 25 office, excuse me. 

Page 42 Page 44 

1 Q And then your shift ended, I believe you testified, 1 A JUROR: How well did you know ba? 

2 at approximately 1:30 p.m. 2 THE WlTNESS: Just by her coming in and out of the 

3 A Yes. sir. 3 post every day. Coming in from - coming into the East Wing. 

4 Q And you left. 4 A JUROR: If we bad bear,d from someone that a 

5 A Yes, sir. 5 Uniformed Division officer told Jocelyn Jolley around the 

6 Q And that you had no other meetings with 6 time that she was transferred that she should watch her back, 

7 Betty Currie on this day, other than the two that 7 what can you tell 16 that that might mean? 

8 you’ve described? 8 THE WITNESS: Whew, that’s the fust I’ve heard 

9 A Yes, sir. 9 that. I would not know. Would not know. 

0 Q Are you aware, from looking at any record, or any 10 A JUROR: Thank you. 

1 conversation, or from any source, about any other meetings 11 A JUROR: Sergeant Williams, can you -just 

2 that Betty Currie had with, for example, Captain Purdie or 12 focussing on our East Wing experience for a moment, can 

3 others about the Northwest Gate incident? 13 you tell me where Monica’s office was in relation to the 

4 A I’m not aware of them, sir. 14 white House theater. 

5 BY MR. SUSANIN: 15 THE WlTNESS: White House theater? 

6 Q Have you been told about any, Sergeant Williams, 16 A JUROR: Mm-bmm. It’s not on the diagram, 

7 that you weren’t aware of yourself directly? 17 unfortunately. 

8 A Excuse me? 18 THE WITNESS: It’s not on that diagram. 

9 Q Were you told about any such meetings? 19 A JUROR: Was it close to it, or nearby? 

0 A I don’t understand the question. 20 THE WlTNESS: Yes, it’s close to it, ma’am. 

1 Q Your answer you’re not aware of any, do you mean 21 A JUROR: Did you ever see her in the White House .. 

.2 you’re not aware of any personally or directly? 22 theater, or go into the White House. t@tq? 

:3 A Personally, I’m not aware of any, and directly, no. 23 THE WlTNESS: I’ve never seen her go inside there. 

:4 Q You didn’t hear about any such meetings from 24 A JUROR: Could you see the white House theater ’ 

:5 anyone else? 25 from your post’? 

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July 23, 1998 

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I THE WITNESS: No, ma’am. 

2 A JUROR: Okay. Thank you. 

3 hlR. PAGE: Okay. All right would you step outside, 

4 please. Thank you. 

5 (The witness was excused and recalled.) 

6 *** 

7 FOREPERSON: Mr. Williams, I’d like to remind you 

8 that you that you’re still under oath. 

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma’am. 

0 MR. PAGE: And Madame Foreperson, is it accurate t( 

1 say that we have a quorum present and that no unauthorized 

2 people are in the Grand Jury? 

3 FOREPERSON: That would be accurate. 

4 BY MR. PAGE: 

5 Q Thank you. 

6 Sergeant Williams, I want to ask you a couple more 

7 questions -- 

8 A Yes, sir. 

9 Q -- which may develop into a couple more, even after 

10 that, so don’t hold me to two. 

Ii A Okay. 

12 Q Number one, in your view, was it -- back around 

13 December 6, 1997 and in the several months preceding 

14 that -- common knowledge, from your vantage point, that 

15 Monica Lewinsky and the President were involved in a sexual 

Page 46 

1 relationship. And when I say “common knowledge,” I mean that 

2 people were talking about. And I’m asking this on behalf of 

3 the Grand Jury. 

4 A Yes. To my knowledge, through generalization, 

5 through people talking, that - I would assume - I would say 

6 that they were having some sort sex of sexual Elationship. 

7 A JUROR: Sag&t Williams, was it common 

8 knowledge, or were these rumors’? 

9 THE WITNESS: I would - I would say from my point, 

0 they were rumors. Rumors to me, I would say that they were 

1 having a sexual relationship. 

2 BY MR. PAGE: 

3 Q All right. Again, on behalf of the Grand Jury, I 

4 want to ask you some follow-up questions to that, and if you 

5 don’t understand them, feel free to say you don’t. 

6 In line with what one of tbc grand jurors just 

7 asked you, going to this idea of common knowledge, was tbae 

8 anything that you saw personally that suggested to you that 

9 the common knowledge was correct? 

0 A Okay. 

1 Q And I want to bFeak rumor down into what you saw, 

2 even things that you may not be able to articulate, but one 

3 and one is two. Do you follow what I’m saying? 

4 A I’m following what you’re saying. 

5 Q And then we’ll go to rumor. 

1 A Okay. 

2 Q And I’m not suggesting there is either rumor or any 

3 factual basis for common knowledge. Do you bear me? 

4 A Yes. I understand. 

5 Q Let’s do that part first. Anything you saw? 

6 A There’s nothing I saw. Nothing that I saw. 

7 Q And what about an)tiing you heard -- still on this 

S prong of common knowledge -- that wasn’t rumory or 

9 rumor-based. if you can make that distinction? 

0 A Nothing. 

1 Q Now, let’s go to the rumor part of the 

2 question by the grand juror, all right? What kind of rumors, 

3 then. contributed to your belief that it was common knowledge 

4 that the President and Monica Lewinsky were involved in a 

5 sexual Gationship? 

6 A One, that -- the general rumor, again, about the 

7 family &eater. Two, about general conversation, again, 

8 about - I don’t know him; I just knew him by his face 

9 when I saw him; I think his name was Nelvis - supposedly 

10 have caught him in a uncompromised position. 

I1 Q Now, did -- go ahead, and then we’ll break these 

:2 down. I’m sorry. 

:3 A And I think that’s the only two I can recall. 

4 Q There may be othas. but you may have forgotten. 

5 A Yes, sir. I 

Page 48 

1 Q Is that accurate? 

2 A Yes, sir. 

3 Q Au right. Let’s talk about Nelvis supposedly 

4 finding the President and Monica L.ewinsky in a compromising 

5 position? 

6 A That’s the rumor that was going around, sir. 

7 Q You heard t& rumor. Can you tell tbz Grand Jury 

8 from whom you heard it. 

9 A Again, it - again, it’s general - in our rolI 

0 caU room, which is downstairs, you get a bunch of guys start 

1 talking, and you just hear through -body talking. 

2 Q And so we’re clear, this is one of the President’s 

3 stcwards4 A Yes, sir. 

5 Q - Bayani Nelvis, correct? 

6 A Yes, sir. 

7 Q That’s who you’re refening to? 

8 A Yes, sir. 

9 Q Any other basis for this prong of common knowkdge 

0 that you’ve talked about that’s based upon rumor or what the. 

1 people - your fellow officezs or sergeants or captains in -- 

2 the Uniformed Division were speaking abqut? 

I 

3 A I can recaU one -- John Muskett -- I saw 

4 Mrs. Lewinsky on tbe north grounds one day, and I told y 

5 John that I just saw her on the complex. but noting to 

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I assume that, you know, afqything was going on. I just saw 1 A Yes, sir. 

2 her on the complex, and I mea11 telling Officer Muskett 2 Q So YOU weren’t primarily there on weekends? 

3 about seeing her. 3 A No, sir. And if I might add, when I was assigne; 

4 BY MS. WIRTH: 4 to the G-4, the Northwest -- I mean, the East Wing posr G-4 

5 Q How did you tell Oflieer Muskett that? Did you 5 1 was also, I told you, equipment handler, which mean: : was 

6 pick up the phone and call him or -- 6 on the road a whole lot. So the times that Mrs. Lewinsi;. 

7 A No, I saw him in -- waIking across the complex. 7 actually worked there at the White House, I was never ?.zdly 

8 Q And what did you tell him? 8 there, anyway. 

9 A I just told -- if can reeall, I think I told John, 9 Q Now, you know that this Grand Jury, by virtue c? 

0 I says, “John, I saw Monica on the complex,” because they 10 what Mr. Wisenberg told you at the outset, is looking iz:d 

1 were friends before, when I -- 11 allegations about Monica Lewinsky and others lying or 

2 Q John Muskett and Monica were friends? 12 perjuring themselves. 

3 A Yes. 13 Do you have any information for the Grand Jury i+.at 

4 Q And do you remember when that happened? 14 we haven’t asked you about because we haven’t asked t& 

5 A It was in the faII, probably around August or 15 right question? 

6 September of last year. 16 A I can’t think of any. 

7 Q 97? ‘ 17 A JUROR: Just one question, please. Sergeant 

8 A 97. ‘ 18 Williams, do you sometimes refer to the steward as a gz-d? 

9 Q Do you remember whether there was anything going on 19 THE WITNESS: The steward? 

0 at the time in the newspapers in particular that -- 20 A JUROR: Yes. 

1 A No, not then. I can’t recall if it was in the 21 THE WITNESS: No, I -- no, ma’am. 

2 newspaper or not then. I just recall telling John because 22 MR. PAGE: All right. Could you step out of ttti 

3 John knew her, and I used to see the two talk all the time. 23 room for a moment 

4 Q Do you remem~ what Mr. Muskett’s reaction was 24 FOREPERSON: Could we just excuse him? 

5 when you told him this? 25 MR. PAGE: All right. I’m sorry. I thought it IZL~ 

Page 50 PZX 5i 

1 A He just laughed, and he said, “Okay.” 1 beneeessaryto-- 

2 Q Do you know whetha he took any notes of that? 2 FOREPERSON: Sergeant, you don’t have to come 

3 A I - I don’t know. I don’t know if he took any 3 back. You’re excused. If the OIC has, or if we have any 

4 notes of it or not. 4 additional questions, we’ll be in contact with your attorney. 

5 MR. PAGE: We had another question from one of the 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. 

6 grandjurors. 6 JURORS: Thank you. 

7 A JUROR: Sergeant Williams, did you say that you 7 (The w-he% was excused.) 

8 worked on Saturdays? 8 (Whereupon, at 12:33 p.m., the taking of the 

9 THE WITNESS: My weekend -- I had the weekends off, 9 testimony in the presence of a full quorum of the Grand Jury 

0 and some Saturdays I did work. 10 was concluded.) 

1 A JUROR: Some you did work? 11 ***** 

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 

3 A JUROR: Would you notice anybody coming to the 

4 White House who consistently came on Saturdays? 

5 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I - not consistently, no. 

6 BY MR. PAGE: 

7 Q So occasionally, you worked Saturdays, correct? 

B A Yes, sir. 

3 Q Did occasionally you work Sundays? 

3 A Very rarely worked Sun&y because my wife wanted me 

1 to go to church on Sundays. 

2 A JUROR: Good for her. 

3 BY MR. PAGE: 

1 Q And so your routine practice was to work Monday 

5 through Friday? 

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In rc: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Pagcm July 23, 1998 

Page 5: 

CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 

I, Elizabeth J. Walker, the reporter for the 

United States Attorney’s Office, do hereby certify that the 

witness(es ) whose testimony appears in the foregoing pages 

was ftrst duly sworn by the foreperson or the deputy 

foreperson of the Grand Jury when there was a full quorum of 

the Grand Jury present; that the testimony of said 

witness(es ) was taken by me by stenotype and, thereafter, 

reduced to typewritten form; and that the transcript is a 

true record of the testimony given by said witness(es). 

Elizabeth J. Walker 

Official Reporter 

4 

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Thursday, July 30,1998 

Page ?- 

1 Q And you told us that the first time you went to set 

1 

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GRAND JURY PROCEEDINGS : 

Grand Jury ma NO. 3 

United StACC, 01,tricc co-arc 

tar thha oiscricc ot CO;UMl~ 

3rd ‘ Constitution. N.Y. 

Yashinqton, D.C. 20001 

Thursday, July 30. 1998 

s*ptember 19, 1997, cmencinq at I:40 p.m., betore: 

ESIAP.0 ‘ J. PAGE 

WARY ANNE WIRTH 

ALIsociatc Independent counac1 

office Of m*qI?n*ent counre1 

1001 Penn*y1vani. Avenue, Y.Y. 

Suite 490 Worth 

Waohinqton, D.C. 20004 

Page 2 

1 PROCEEDINGS 

2 Whereupon, 

3 KEITH WILLLAMS 

4 was called as a witness and, after having been first duly 

5 sworn by the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined ant 

6 testified as follows: 

7 EXAMINATION 

8 BY MS. WIRTH: 

9 Q Sergeant Williams, you remember you testified last 

IO week before this grand jury? 

il A Yes, ma’am. 

I2 Q And do you have any questions about the rights as 

13 they were explained to you last week before you testified? 

14 A No, ma’am. 

I5 Q You remember pretty much what you were told then? 

16 A Yes, ma’arn. 

17 Q Okay. We’re going to ask you some questions mostly 

18 spurred on by some questions that the grand jury had, okay? 

19 A Yes, ma’am. 

!O Q Turning your attention back to December 6, 1997, 

!I the incident that happened at the northwest gate -- 

12 A Yes, ma’am. 

!3 Q Okay. You testified that on two occasions you went 

14 to set Betty Currie, right? 

!5 A Yes, ma’am. 

Diversified R~IMAII~ Services. IIX. C202) 296-292~ 

2 her, when you went into her off& the door to the Oval 

3 Office was closed, correct? 

4 A Yes, ma’am. 

5 Q But you said that before you left, during that 

6 first visit to Betty Currie, you noticed that the door was 

7 cracked. 

8 A Yes, ma’am. 

9 Q And by that, I take it you meant that it was 

0 cracked open. 

1 A Yes, ma’am. 

2 Q Okay. We have some questions for you about that. 

3 First of all, when you went to see Betty Cunie on that fust 

4 visit, how far were you from that door, approximately? 

5 A Approximately, the first time? 

6 Q When you were talking to her, how far away would 

7 you be? 

8 A About from where I’m sitting now to the gentleman 

9 with his hair tied to the back. 

10 Q Okay. So would you say that’s maybe 15 feet, 

!I approximately? 

12 A Yes, ma’am. 

13 Q Okay. And were you sitting or standing? 

14 A I was standing, ma’am. 

15 Q And were you facing that door or some other 

Page 4 

1 direction? 

2 A Let’s say the door’s where you’re at, where you’re 

3 sitting. I was probably facing the lady in the red dress, 

4 facing diagonally. 

5 Q Okay. So the door was to your right. 

6 A Yes, ma’am. 

7 Q At about maybe a 45 degree angle away from you? 

8 A Yes, ma’am. 

9 Q Away from ‘you, off to your right? 

0 A Yes, ma’am. 

1 Q And where was Mrs. Currie sitting? 

2 A Probably right where the foreman is sitting. 

3 Q Okay. So maybe the door was about 10 to 20 degrees 

4 to your right? 

5 A The door was actually like really behind her. 

6 Q 1 see. But over her right shoulder? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q A littlc bit to the right? 

9 A Yes, ma’am. 

10 Q And could you see the door when you were speaking 

!I to her’? 

!2 A If 1 was looking at the door, yes, I could see the 

!3 door, but my attention was ori her. 

!4 Q Okay. But you wouldn’t have to turn your body to 

!5 see the door. 

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1 A No. ma’am. 

2 Q You would just glance over in that dxectlon and 

3 tbereitwas. 

4 A Yes. ma’am. 

5 Q What is that door made of? If you know. 

6 A I don’t know. I think it’s wood. 

7 Q Okay. And do you know how it opens from the 

8 inside? 

9 A I can’t recall. I think it opens from the inside. 

0 Q With a doorknob? 

1 A With a doorknob. 

2 Q Okay. And from the outside. does it also open with 

3 a doorknob? 

4 A I couldn’t tell you if it does or not. I don’t 

5 know. 

6 Q Okay. Did you ever hear it open during the time 

7 you were talking to Mrs. Currie? 

8 A No. ma’am. 

9 Q Why do you think you noticed that it was opened? 

!O A Because while she was talking to me and I Like 

!I looked over to the door and it was cracked. 

!2 Q How much was it cracked open? How much would you 

!3 say? 

!4 A Not much. 

!5 Q Ifwetakeadoorandweopenit.andwe’ll 

In Re: Grand Jury Proceedings Thursday, July 30, 1998 

Page 6 

I consider that full opening 100 percent open, how much 

2 percentage wise would you say it was open? 

3 A It was probably open about -- anywhere from -- 

4 about 5 percent. 

5 Q Okay. And did you ever hear any sounds coming from 

6 within the Oval Office? While you were sitting there talking 

7 to Mrs. Currie. 

8 A Yes, I heard sounds coming from there. 

9 Q What did you hear? 

0 A Just people talking. 

1 Q What kinds of voices? 

2 A 1 couldn’t tell whether it was a male or fcmale, I 

3 just heard voices talking. 

4 Q Did you hear more than one voice? 

15 A I only heard one voice. 

16 Q Could you tell whether the voice that you heard was 

17 male or female? 

18 A To tell you the truth, I couldn’t. 

19 Q Did you hear any words that were said? 

20 A The only thing I heard that was said was -- 

21 to my recollection, I can’t state -- but I did hear -- 

22 I thought I heard them say something about someone being 

23 fired. 

24 Q Okay. So you heard a voice saying something 

25 about someone being fired from within the Oval Office. 

1 A Yes, ma’am. 

2 Q And you can’t tell us whether that voice was male 

3 or female? 

4 A Honestly, I can’t. 

5 Q Did you recognize the voice? 

6 A I did not. 

7 Q Could you tell how close the person was who was 

8 speaking to the door of the Oval Office that you saw 

9 cracked open, could you tell how close that person was to 

0 the door? 

1 A No, ma’am. 

2 Q Did you have the impression that someone was 

3 listening in on your conversation with Mrs. Currie? 

4 A At first, no. But after I looked up and saw the 

5 door cracked, I had that impression. 

6 Q Isee. 

7 A And at that time, I was also trying to leave then. 

8 Q You were what? 

9 A Trying to leave the room. 

0 Q when you heard the voice say something about 

:I someone being fired, did it appear that that person was 

2 trying to keep their voice down or speaking in a normal 

3 tone? 

4 A It just appeared that they were speaking in a 

,5 normal voice to me. 

Page b 

1 Q Did you have the impression that tk person who was 

2 speaking was intending that you should bear this? 

3 A I have the impression - I would say no, I don’t 

4 think that I was supposed to bear. 

5 A JUROR: Can I ask a question? 

6 MS. WIRTH: Yes. 

7 A JUROR: Given the cadence of the voice that you 

8 beard. could the person have been on tbe tekphone or do 

9 you feel as though they were speaking with someone in that 

Oroorn? 

1 THE WITNESS: To me, the feling as if the voice 

2 was speaking to someone in the room. 

3 A JUROR: So it didn’t sound Iike tky were waiting 

4 and pausing Iike they vxrc on the phone. 

15 THE WITNESS: No, ma’am. 

16 A JUROR: Thank you. 

17 BY MR. PAGE: 

18 Q Sergeant Williams, wbcn you’re outside the oval 

19 this day that Ms. Wirtb has ban questioning you about. wbcn 

10 you heat somconc ins& say words to tk cAcct about someone 

11 shouldbeorisgoingtobcfulcd,whatarrywthinking 

12 inside? Do you think it could be you or an off~ica with wbom 

13 you work? 

!4 A AttbatmomenfIwasthiakingthatIaadaltogct 

15 to the meat or the gist of what was going on. Because like I 

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I said, the first time I was in the room, I bad no idea what 

2 was going on until Mrs. Currie explained it to me and it was 

3 after tbe fust -- like I said. I called the fust time to 

4 find out what was going on and no one seemed to know and then 

5 I go into the office and Mrs. Currie. tells me what’s going on 

6 and tbm I know I distinctly lrard tbe word fti. I beard 

7 tbatpart. AndtknIwassayingtomyselfIneultogetout 

8 them and find out what’s going on. 

9 Q So this had an impact on you, as soon as you beard 

0 tbe word fired, because of your knowledge, I should say, the 

1 facts tbat you bad gatbczed up to that point, correct? 

2 A Yes, sir. 

3 A JUROR: I have a question. 

4 Ms.wlRTH: Yes. 

5 A JUROR: I just wonti what was tbe emotional 

6 tenor of tbevoicc? Waetbeyangry? 

7 THE WITNESS: To me, at that point, it didn’t sound 

8 liketbeywzreangry. Tome,Imean.Ihearditfroma 

9 distance, but it didn’t sound like tbe person was angry or 

10 anything. 

11 BY Ms. WIRTH: 

12 Q Could you describe - you know, tbenz are different 

13 ways to speak. You know, authoritative, friendly, happy, 

!4 sad, you know. As the grand juror mentioned. angry. Can you 

15 put any kind of a -- 

Page 10 

1 A Yes. I don’t think it was - from the distance I 

2 was, it didn’t sound like it was authoritarian, it just 

3 seem& like tk person was just talking. You know, it was -- 

4 it didn’t seem like they were angry or anything, it didn’t 

5 seemliketheywere-youknow,tbeywanted-Imean,tbey 

6 were. just talking there. 

7 Q Now, a couple of times wben you’ve described the 

8 voice, at least twice that I recall you used tbe word “he,” 

9 “be said.” Do you bave any kind of memory that the voice was 

0 male? 

1 A To tell you the truth, I assumed tbat it was a male 

2 voice. 

3 Q Okay. When you say you assumed it was a male 

4 voice, did it sound more male tban female? 

5 A Yes,ma’am. 

6 BY MR. PAGE: 

7 Q So as a result of hearing that word fired. you 

8 take it upon yourself to go out and, I believe. in your 

9 words, “I’ve got to get - ‘* was it “to tbe bottom of this,” 

!O Sergeant Williams? 

!I A Yes, sir. 

!2 BY MS. WIRTH: 

!3 Q Tell us-to tbe best bf your munor@xaEtly wbat you 

!4 heard. 

15 A To tbe best of my memory, wbat I beard was 

I 

I 

1 

I 

1 

1 

I 

1 

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1 

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, 1 

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; 

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. 1 

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Page 11 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

2 

2 

2 

2 

2 

2 

I “This person ntxds to be fired.” 

2 Q Do you remember, approximately how long were you 

3 in on that first visit talking to Mrs. Cunie? 

4 A Again, I would probably say no more rhan five 

5 minutes. 

6 Q And can you say approximately how far through 

7 that conversation you were with her when you heard this 

8 voice? 

9 A when I heard the voice, I was getting ready to 

IO leave, I was getting ready to walk out of the room. As a 

I I matter of fact, she told me to hold up. 

12 Q And can you tell us when in relation to the time 

13 you noticed the door was open did you hear the voice? 

14 A No more than five seconds. 

I5 Q Okay. So you looked, you saw the door open, and 

I6 then you heard a voice. 

17 A Yes, ma’am. 

18 Q Did you ever hear anything else come from that room 

19 besides the remark that you’ve just told us? 

!O A No, ma’am. Right after the remarks is when 

!l she told me I could go and 1 tried to beat feet out of 

!2 there. 

!3 A JUROR: Excuse me. Is it possible that -- when 

!4 you heard the voice, were you, as you said, just about to go 

!5 out the other door? 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

J 

1 

1 

2 

; 

: 

: 

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1 THE WITNESS: I hadn’t moved yet- I was getting 

2 ready fo go. 

3 A JUROR: Could it be possible that whoever spoke 

4 was intending for that to be heard by Mrs. Currie, as sort of 

5 a reminder? 

6 THE WITNESS: I don’t know, sir. 1 don’t know. 

7 A JUROR: Was it loud enough. as if someone 

8 intended for her to hear it? 

9 THE WITNESS: I would say no. 

IO .4 JUROR: Okay. Thank you. 

11 BY MR. PAGE: 

12 Q You said a moment ago, Sergeant Williams, that 

13 Betty Currie said to hold up. 

I4 A Yes, sir. 

is Q Do you know why? 

I6 A Because she was still talking to me. 

I7 BY MS. WIRTH: 

I8 Q This is when you tried to leave? 

I9 A YeS. Yes, ma’am. 

10 Q Did you ever tell anybody about what you heard? 

!I A Other than Captain Purdie, 1 mentioned to him not 

!2 at that time, later on, I think I mentioned to him that I 

13 thought I heard that statement. - 

14 Q Do you remember when you told him that? 

I5 A I think it was -- the first Friday we had that we 

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Page 13 

I were here. 

2 Q “Here” being the grand jury? You have to answer 

3 verbally. 

4 A Yes. Yes. 

5 Q Okay. So recently, within the past few weeks. 

6 A Yes, tXi’atn. 

7 Q And did Captain l%rdie say anything to you when you 

8 told him this’? 

9 A I asked him a question because I heard a Nmor 

0 that he had had a second visit, so I asked him at that time, 

1 too, I asked him did he actually have a second visit with 

2 the President and he told me I didn’t need to know that, so 

3 I never asked any more questions about it, just left it 

4 alone. 

5 Q Did he ask you whether you had spoken to the 

6 president? 

7 A No, he didn’t ask me that. 

8 Q Did he ever tell you that you should speak to a 

9 lawyer about what you had heard or seen? 

10 A The ones we were talking to at that time. he did 

11 tell me I needed to tell legal counsel about it. 

12 Q About what? 

13 A Our !%cret Service counsel. 

14 Q About what? 

!5 A About me hearing what I heard. 

Page 14 

1 Q Okay. .4nd you did tell them what you had heard? 

2 A Yes. I did. But. again. the reason why I didn’t 

3 explain it the fmt time. because I wasn’t sure about what 

4 I heard. 

5 Q Well. we didn’t ask you whether you had heard 

6 anything from within the Oval Office. is that correct? 

7 A Yes. ma’am. 

8 Q The last time you testified. no one asked you that 

9 question, correct? 

0 A No. ma’am. 

1 Q But we’ve asked you today. 

2 A Yes, ma’am. 

3 Q And that’s your best memory of what you heard. 

4 A Yes, ma’am. 

5 A JUROR: Sergeant. did you draw any conclusion or 

6 form any opinion as to who was speaking. whose voice it was 

7 you heard? 

8 THE WlTNESS: No, I didn’t draw any conclusions. 

9 I assumed - I knew that the President was in the. Oval 

!O Office. as I said before. 

!I A JUROR: Butting yourself back them at the time, 

!2 did you think it was the President? 

!3 THE WITNESS: Or someone else in tbe room with him. 

!4 or another male. 

!5 A JUROR: Tbank you. 

Page 15 

1 BY MS. WIRTH: 

2 Q Have you ever heard the President’s voice in 

3 person? 

4 A Yes, ma’am. 

5 MS. WIRTH: Okay. We’re: going to ask you to step 

6 outside for a minute. Thank you, Sergeant. 

7 (Witness excused. Witness recalled.) 

8 THE FOREPERSON: Sergeant Williams, I’d like to 

9 remind you that you are still under oath. 

IO BY MS. WIRTH: 

II Q Sergeant Williams, the grand jurors have a few 

12 questions for you. The fust one is that day, December 6, 

13 1997, did you ever have a conversation with Officer Chinery 

14 during which you told him about your fust visit to Betty 

15 Curie’s office? 

16 A I came out of the office and walked past him. I 

I 7 don’t recall having a conversation with him. 

18 Q Do you recall whether at any time that day you told 

19 Officer Chinery about what happened in Betty Cunie’s oflIce 

!O during your first visit? 

!l A To tell you the truth, the only thing I remember 

!2 saying to him was when I came out of the office with the 

!3 captain and I asked him for a copy of who was in and what 

!4 time Ms. -- what’s her name -- 

!5 Q Mondale? 

Page Iti 

1 A Mondale came into the office. 

2 Q Do you have any recollection of telling Officer 

3 Chinery at any time, whether it was that day or any later 

4 occasion, about what you heard coming from the Oval Office 

5 when you went to visit Betty Cur-tie the first time? 

6 A I don’t. 

7 Q Have you ever told Off&r Chinery about that? 

8 About hearing the voice saying something about this person 

9 needs to be fued? 

.O A No, ma’am. 

.I Q Have you ever heard an account of your fvst visit 

,2 to Betty Cunie’s office during which you heard a voice from 

,3 within the Oval Office saying, “This person needs to be 

4 fired”? Did you ever hear that story repeated by anybody 

.5 else? 

,6 A That I have. I have beard that stow, but it was 

.7 inreferenceto--becausewtKnIwasatA-4,thenorthwest 

i8 gate, and I tried to get those guys to tell me what WES going 

:9 on, I told Officer Hall, I told him, I said, “Look, you guys 

!O have got to tell me the truth because I was told that 

!I somebody’s going to get fired behind of this.” 

!2 ButIdidthatatthatmomenttogettheseguysto 

!3 start talking because the firs time I called out there, no 

!4 one seemed to know what was going on. 

!5 Q When you said to Officer Hall, when you were txying 

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1 to impress upon him that this was important and be had to 

2 tell you the truth, did you tell Officer Hall that the 

3 President had said to you that someone could be fired over 

4 this? 

5 A I did tell him that. I told him that, again, to 

6 get him to talk because he got real closed mouth uith me. 

7 wouldn’t say anything. 

8 Q And did you tell Officer Hall that after your first 

9 visit to Betty Currie? 

0 A Yes. Yes, ma’am. 

1 Q And have you ever heard anybody in the Secret 

2 ServiceorintheWbiteHousetepeatingastorythattbe 

3 President had told you directly that someone was going to be 

4 fued? 

5 A After that, the rumor just spread and I heard a lot 

6 of people talking about it. 

7 Q Okay. But that wasn’t true, according to your 

8 testimony? 

9 A That wasn’t true. And I told that -- you know, 

0 some people that, but the rumors are out. It was a wrong 

1 choice of words, but I tried to get Off&r Hall to tell 

2 me what was going on. And I was pretty upset, too, at the 

3 time. 

4 MS. WIRTH: Any more questions? 

5 (No response.) 

Page 18 

1 MS. WIRTH: Okay. Thank you, Sergeant Williams. 

2 You can leave. Thank you. 

3 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You’re excused. 

4 MS. WIRTH: 

5 (The witness was excused.) 

6 (Whereupon, at 2:07 p.m., the taking of testimony 

7 in the presence of a full quorum of the Grand Jury was 

8 concluded.) 

9 ***** 

__ 

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4553 

oc*n* Jury Rem HO. 2 

“nlted states rl1*trict court. 

tar the cJiscr:cc ot Caluinrir 

3rd & constitution, N.W. 

Washlnqto", D.C. 20001 

Thursday, July 23, 1998 

The tesrimany of GEORGE MICHAEI. WILSON was taken i.? 

the presence Of a full quorum Of Grand Jury 97-5, lmpane~ed 

on December 5, 1997, ccranenclnq at 9:28 a.m., before: 

ROBERr *IDeputy Independent Counsel 

TmoTHY S"SAxIY 

Associate Independent Counsel 

ottice Of Independent Counsel 

1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 

suite 490 H?rrh 

Washingmn, 3.c. 20004 

In re: Grand Jury Proceedings MultiPage 2 

CONTENTS 

WITNESS: Page 

3 

GRAND JURY Exn~P.IT*: 

14 

18 

"0. GMW-3 PPD ShifC Rep-arc 19 

NO. mm-4 Diagram of west Wing of White House 29 

"0. Gwi-5 F-l no"emenZ I.sg 54 

55 

wo. Gnu-7 Cornand Post Log, 11-20-9s 

-- 

. :. . . 

56 

PagC July 23,1998 

1 Page ? 

1 PROCEEDINGS 

2 Whereupon, 

3 GEORGE MICHAEL WILSON 

4 was called as a witness and, having been fist duly sworn by 

5 the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and testified 

6 as follows: 

7 EXAMINATION 

8 BY MR. BIT-l-MAN: 

9 Q Good morning, sir. My name is Robert Bittman. I’m 

10 an attorney in the Office of the Independent Counsel. 

I1 Could you please state your name for the record? 

12 A My name is George Michael Wilson. 

83 Q And what do you do for a living, sir? 

14 A I’m a criminal investigator with the Federal 

,5 Emergency Management Agency, EEMA, Office of Inspector 

16 General. 

.I Q Before we go too far into the questions, I’d like 

18 to advise you of certain rights and obligations that we 

9 advise every person who appears before tbe grand jury. 

!O And the rights are that you have a right to have an 

!I attorney present outside the courtroom with you today. Do 

!2 you have an attorney with you today? 

!3 A 1 do not. 

!4 Q If you did have an attorney with you, you would be 

!5 permitted to consult with that attorney at any reasonable 

Page 4 

1 time. If you have a question about something I ask you, you 

2 are permitted to excuse yourself from the grand jury and 

3 consult with that attorney. Do you understand that? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q Do you waive your right to have an attorney 

6 present? 

7 A Yes,Idop 

8 Q Okay. You also have a right not to incriminate 

9 yourself. otherwise known as the Fifth Amendment right. Tbat 

0 is, if I ask you a question to which your answer may 

1 incriminate you in some way, you do not have to answer that 

2 question. Do you understand that? 

3 A Yes, I do. 

4 Q Okay. You also have certain obligations here, and 

5 the primary obligation is to tell the truth. And, that is, 

6 if you lie or intentionally mislead this grand jury, you may 

7 bc prosecuted by this or another grand jury for those crimes. 

8 Do you understand that? 

9 A Yes, Ido. 

!O Q Okay. You indicated that you work for FEMA now. 

!I where did you work prior to working for FEMA? 

!2 A I was a Secret Service Agent-from 1978 to 1998. 

!3 Q Did YOU retire from the Secret Service or did you _ 

!4 resign from Ibe Secret Service? - 

!5 A I retired. 

- Page 1 -Page 3_---. -- - ---- 
Page ! 

1 Q You retired? Twenty years, obviously. 

2 A YES. sir. 

3 Q And u-here did you work when you were at ths Secn5 

4 Service? 

5 A I worked in a variety of places. I began with rhe 

6 Uniformed Division of the Secret Service in ‘78. In 1983 I 

7 was working in the Foreign Missions Branch. which protected 

8 embassies and chancellties in the Northwest area. 

9 In 1993 I became an agent, plainclothes, and was 

0 transferred to Houston. Texas. I stayed there for four years 

1 and was transferred again to Washington, D.C., our Washington 

2 Field Office. where I was a fraud investigator for a year. 

3 From 1988, I was promoted and got sent to our 

4 training division. and I was a control tactics instructor 

5 from ‘88 to ‘93 - I’m sorry, ‘88 to ‘92. 

6 In ‘92 I was transferred to the presidential 

7 detail. I was tbeze from ‘92 to ‘97. In ‘97 I went back to 

8 the Office of Training, was sent back to the Office of 

9 Training for six months. where I retired from there. 

10 Q Can you explain to the ladies and gentlemen of the 

!I grand jury - you’ve indicated that you were in the Uniformed 

12 Division of the Secret Service -- 

:3 A Mm-hmm. 

14 Q -- and then you became an agent. Can you explain 

5 what the Uniformed Division does and what the agents do in 

Page f

1 the Secret Service? 

2 A The Uniformed Division primarily is responsible 

3 for, like I said, embassies and diplomatic locations in the 

4 Washington area. It’s also primarily responsible for the 

5 White House, the grounds of the White House, physical 

6 security of the residence. 

7 They also handle the Vice President’s residence up 

8 at Observatory Circle. 

9 And what the uniformed people do, like I said, 

0 they’re more of an outer perimeter, physical security of a 

1 residence type function. They also have various other 

2 functions, like canine, they have counter-snipers. They have 

3 magnetometers, metal detectors, they run those as well. 

4 And the difference between them and us, I believe - 

5 - we work primarily in plainclothes, we have criminal 

6 investigatory expertise and training, and we are more -- we 

7 are investigative where they are not. 

8 So in the protection role, I try to equate it, they 

9 guard the buildings and we guard the people, pret@ much. 

0 Q Did you take an oath when you joined the Secret 

1 Service? 

2 A Yes, Idid. 

3 Q What was the oath, if you remember? 

4 A It was an ethics oath, you know, talking about 

5 patriotism and treasonable offenses and that type of thing. 

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In rc: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Pwcm Julv 23. 1998 I 1 

a I 

Page i 

I Like I said. it was more of a conduct oath and patriotic oath 

2 to -m-ve the country. 

3 Q To uphold the laws of the country? I 

4 :\ Yes. 

5 Q Do you take a different oath when you become. an 

6 agent? 

7 A To be honest with you. I don’t - I don’t think it 

8 was drastically different. I think it’s a fairly generic 

9 t\~ oath. Swear to uphold the laws of the United States and 

0 to conduct yourself professionally. 

I Q You’ve described the differences between the 

2 Uniformed Division and the Agent Division, and then when you 

3 became an agent in 1983, you said that you in 1992 became a 

4 member of the presidential detail. 

5 A Correct. 

6 Q That’s a subset. obviously, of the Agent Division; 

7 is that right? 

8 A The. agents have two responsibilities, investigatory 

9 and protective. For the first part of my career it was 

0 investigations, counterfeit investigation, forgery, fraud 

‘1 investigation. 

2 And then there’s the protection side where we have 

3 the President. the First Family, tbe Vice President and his 

4 immediate family, and presidential candidates and former 

5 Presidents as well. : 

Page b

I Q Can you give the grand jury some idea of how big 

2 the Sect-et Service and how many agents were there when you 

3 rdrexl in 19 -- 

4 A In the whole agency? 

5 Q Yes, for the whole Secnzt Service. 

6 A I can estimatesabout 2,000. 

7 Q About 2,000 agents? And does that include 

8 uniformed guys? 

9 A No. 

0 Q No, okay. So just agents, there were about 2,000 

1 when you retired. About how many of those are assigned to 

2 the presidential detail? 

3 A I think we’re getting into an area where I may need 

4 to talk to counsel about that. The total number of agents on 

5 PPD? 

6 Q Right. 

7 A I’m just trying to get an idea of how many agents 

8 are assigned to protection and how many are assigned to 

9 investigation. 

0 A Well, protection includes, you know, former 

1 Presidents. Now, do you want to break it down or -- 

2 Q Why don’t you -- if you could-break it down that 

3 way so that it will be, I suppose, less confidential, in T 

4 terms of how many just do investigations and how many do Y 

5 protection. 

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July 23,1998 

I 

?)age 1 

1 then was transfLxr& :il another satellite entity within the 

2 compound. within 0-e \\hitr HOUSC, which was PPD, Prejtitial 

3 Protective Division. training. I trained new agents, and 

4 agents that are &x-e. updatai their training. 

5 And after a year of PPD training I went back to ti 

6 shift again as a shift agent and a -- in a bit of a 

7 supervisory capacic as what we call a “whip,” someOne -&r 

8 directs the shift. 

9 I also did advance work during this period of Tim 

0 did that for a year, and rhen back to PPD training for six 

I more months. And tkn I left the detail in October of ‘97. 

2 Q Is that when you &red? 

3 A No, that’s wkn I got sent to our Training Acadcq 

4 for another short tour. and tbzm I retired from there. 

5 Q- Okay. What utx-e your duties as a shift agent? 

6 A They would vary considerably. Most of what we call 

7 standing post. and if the President’s in a room, we’ll stand 

8 outside. We’ll escon him, facilitate his movements. 

9 Make sure mple that are in the ama are 

0 authorized to be thex Know the routes of evacuation fran 

1 there with any armament we may have there, the support we may 

2 have there, facilitating the communications. Mindful of 

3 where the public is. where the media may be. 

4 It’s facilitation and moving with him, allowing biz 

5 to complete tix work that he needs to do in a comfortable 

1 A It’s probably two-thirds investigation and one2 third protection. 

3 Q Okay. 

4 A That’s a -- that’s a -- 

5 Q Rough estimate, yes. 

6 A Very well. 

7 Q That’s all I’m interested in. 

8 What were your duties -- well, let me back up. Did 

9 you have any special training when you became a Presidential 

.O Protective Detail person? 

I1 A Just our standard training in Glencoe, Georgia, 

.2 which is the Federal Law Enfor cement Training Center, had 

,3 that. 

14 As an instructor in our Training Academy, I was a 

.S certified physical skills/defensive tactics instructor, so I 

,6 had specialized training there. And we have our basic 

,7 firearms training that we go through. 

.8 So I didn’t have any drastically special skills, if 

,9 that answers your question. 

!O Q Actually, what I’m asking is, when you were an 

!I investigator and then you became a member of the presidential 

!2 detail, did you then go through another training program? 

!3 A No. 

!4 Q Okay. It’s just the same thing. They just said, 

!5 “Michael” -- and you go by “Michael,” don’t you? 

Page 10 

1 A yes. 

2 Q Or Agent Wilson? 

3 A No, Mike is tine. 

4 Q Okay. “Mike, you’ve been transferred to the 

5 presidential detail,” and I suppose that’s probably something 

6 -- did you want to do that? 

7 A Frankly, I wanted to go to the VP detail, but once 

8 I got there, I learned to enjoy the challenge and enjoy the 

9 work and the people that worked there. 

.O A little reluctant at first because 1 didn’t want 

1 to leave my training position. I was very engrossed in that 

‘2 program and would have like to have stayed. If I had an 

3 option, I would have stayed. 

4 Q What were your duties as a presidential detail 

5 detailee? 

6 A Well, in the five years I was there it varied. My 

7 first year there I started off as a shift agent, where you 

8 work in close proximity to the President, and I did that for 

9 ayear. 

!O After that I was sent to the - what we call the 

II Transportation Section, which is a satellite duty. It 

12 handles all the -- all motorcades and driving. I did that 

~3 for 14 months. 

14 And then from there I was transferred back to shift 

15 duty. I did that for a little over six or seven months, and 

Page 12 

1 manner, and it’s mostly facilitation. 

2 And with my time, I’m normally standing post 

3 somew&. We ha\= a group of people on a shift, and if UC 

4 go somewhere where tbeds three doors, everybody grabs a 

5 door,andwe@aroomthatweworlcoutofadhocandserup 

6 a shift rotation, stay there as long as he stays thue. 

7 Q And whenTou were on a shift, do you accompany tbc 

8 President wherever bc is, whether that’s in the White House 

9 or -- obviously, the President travels. 

0 A Mm-hmm. 

1 Q Do you go with him on travel? 

2 A Absolutely. 

3 Q So with the shift, it’s not like them is a shift 

4 for when the President’s in the White House and then a 

5 separate shift for when the President is traveling. 

6 A No. 

7 Q Okay. It’s atways the same shift, the same group 

8 of people. 

9 A Well, rtanembez, when I say “shift,” that indicates 

0 three shifts around the clock. So it’s not one shift, it’s 

I three eight-hour shifts. actually. 

2 Most of the time I was *$-was three. 

.._ 

3 Sometimes we went into four. Ging a fourth shift that ux 

4 always on training. and every two weeks you would -- you g* 

5 midnight, day work ? to 12, and then training, you’d hair 

Page 9 - Eige 12 
4556 

In rc: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Pagcm July 23, 1998 I I 

Page 1: 

1 hvo weeks of training. And then you’d fall under the pm-vie\ 

2 of PPD training. 

3 You’d do your firearms requalification. your 

4 physical fitness testing, your -- any classroom or policy 

5 updating or paperwork you needed to do during that period o 

6 time. 

7 So there was three and four shifts. 

8 Q Okay. And you stayed -- is there a specific time 

9 that people would generally stay on the shift? That is, the 

0 shift agent, they only stayed for six months and then they’re 

1 deemed -- I have a lot of experience with police officers. 

2 Sometimes, for instance, narcotics officers, they 

3 only allow narcotics officers to stay on for two years, for 

4 example, so that they don’t get too much into it, and then 

5 they shift them to another area. 

6 Is there something like that for PPD guys? 

7 A It’s a bit of unwritten rule. I mean, there’s a 

8 burnout factor if you stay on the shift too long, rotating 

9 shifts, working midnights, large amounts of travel. What 

0 they try to do is move it around. 

1 So, in my -- in my career, I’ve worked the shift, 

2 and then I moved over to Transportation, just to give you a 

3 different -- different look, different job description. Then 

4 came back to the shift and served there. Then left again, 

5 worked at PPD training, then came back to the shift and left 

Page 14 

1 again. 

2 So they - they keep it moving. Nobody comes to 

3 PPD and works the shift for five years or three years and 

4 that goes and gets moved into another assignment. I’ve never 

5 seenthat. 

6 Q I’ve got some documents that I’d like you - if you 

7 canbclpustounderstand,andI’Ilhavethemmarkcdas8 your fmt initial excuse mc, Mr. Wilson, again? 

9 A G. 

0 Q So I’ll have them marked GhiW-I, Gov ermnent Exhibit, 

1 and this is a document that’s been provided to us by the 

2 Secti Service. 

3 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. Gh4W-1 was 

4 marked for identification.) 

5 BY MR. BITTMAN: 

6 Q I’m going to ask you if you can - fust of all, 

7 can you identify what it is’? 

8 A This is - this looks like a Uniformed Division 

9 like shift report written by a lieutenant watch commander. 

0 What it does, it explains in -1 the status, 

1 what’s going on for a certain day. Tbis indicates September 

2 11, ‘97, Thursday. Talks about the tours that are going on, 

3 house guests, demonstrations. 

4 It talks about the watch commanders or the 

5 supervisors for the Uniformed Division. It talks about the 

3 

N 

Page 15 

1 different movements within the compound. Goes down to 

2 lookouts, meaning any kind of suspicious behavior of people 

3 that we arc on the lookout for who have made threats, or 

4 someone like that. 

5 Then it goes into special functions or scheduled 

6 functions within the White House. 

7 Q The special functions area, you’ll = that it has 

8 the time, then the location, I suspect, of the function. 

9 A Correct. 

10 Q And then I guess some generic description of what 

11 the function is, and if it’s unknown, they put, “Purpose 

12 unknown,” and then how many guests wilI be there. 

13 A Mm-hmm, approximately. 

14 Q And then it has a name on the right where “POTUS” 

15 is indicated twice. And POTUS is the acronym for President 

16 of the United States; is that right? 

17 A That’s correct. 

18 Q Is this something that you would generally see when 

19 you were on shift? 

20 A Their command center within the White House sends 

!l our command center -- it’s not the same. We have -- there’s 

!2 actually -- the military has a command center, we do, they 

!3 do, the press does. Everybody’s got a little area that they 

!4 work in. 

!5 And as a matter of protocol, they would send us 

Page lb 

1 this by fax daily to our command center, where we would log 

2 it and just put it in the notebook, compare it with ours, 

3 make sure it was - it coincided. 

4 Q So the PPD or the Agent Division bas their own 

5 facsimile of this, of the President’s daily sclrduk. 

6 A Correct. 

7 Q Can you id&& at least a couple of things for me 

8 on this, if you can. And that is, you’ll see in the watch 

9 commander’s section, at the time of 1925, it has ‘TBD” on tbc 

IO tight side. 

I1 A Mm-hmtn. 

I2 Q What does that mean? 

13 A To BeDetermined. 

14 Q To Be Determined, okay. And then down on the 

I5 POTUS, FLOTUS. Chelsea FLOTUS, meaning the First Lady of the 

L6 United States, has “RON” after that. 

.7 A What is RON? 

8 A Remain Gveznight. 

9 Q Remain Overnight, okay. 

10 Down in tbc distribution section, can you identify 

!l the people who are receiving that what the “cc’ stands for, ’ 

12 if you know? 

-.- 

:3 A Let’s see. “CC Dispatcher,” that’s - ‘WC” is the 

14 watch commanders, the three watch commanders listed above. - 

15 The lieutenant in G-3, that’s the acronym for their command 

Page 13 - Page16 

Divcrsificd Rcncw-tinw Services. lnc (303.) 296-2029 
Ip re- Multi-Paort l-M l..l,. 31 1 nnc 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

2 

2 

2 

2 

2 

Y -VI Ul-Y aus, 1 L”~-uaL1~~ ------- - --a- ---, A_l, 1774 

Page 17 Page l! 

1 section. 1 BY MR. BITIMAN: 

2 Q When you say “their,” you mean the Uniformed 2 Q I’ll show you the next document, which I’11 mark 

3 Division? 3 GMW-3. 

4 A Yeah, I’m sorry, yes, the Uniformed Division 4 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. GMW-3 was 

5 Command Center in tbc Old EOB. That was at that time. 5 marked for identification.) 

6 actilly. the sergeant at the Old EOB. 6 BY MR. BIT-I-MAN: 

7 And, again it goes down the list. DO YOU want to 7 Q This has been identified to us as the PPD Shift 

8 doalltbesehere? 8 Report, Protective Operations Activity and Personnel Reports 

9 Q Yes, please. 9 A That’s exactly correct. 

0 A “Chief FMB,” Financial Management Branch, tbc clerk 10 Q Okay. So you’ve seen something like this before, 

1 there. “DAD’s Office,” is Deputy Assistant Director. White - 11 perhaps not this particular document. 

2 House Division. “Staff Inspector of Canine,” obviously, 12 A Oh, yeah. 

3 that’s tbc Canine Unit. 13 Q Explain to the grand jury what the PPD Shift Report 

4 “MAG Office” is magnetometers, metal detectors. 14 is. 

5 “FILE” is a - probably an administrative indicator. “Deputy 15 A- Our command center as an agent that’s assigned 

6 Chief White House Branch Treasury,” “Deputy Chief White House 16 there every day. It’s a rotating assignment, where they pick 

7 Branch ERT Office,” that’s Emergency Response Team. Again, 17 someone from the shift different every day so you don’t get 

8 it’s one of the things that the Uniformed Division does 18 stuck with it every day. 

9 separately from us. 19 But you man the radios, you man the phones and the 

:O ‘WAVES” is the Washington Area Visitors -- that’s 20 aiarms and the monitors. You -- and part of that duty, 

:1 where all the guests and people that are coming in, they go 21 taking -- it’s a notification point where, if’ the President’s 

‘2 through WAVES for criminal history checks, make sure there’s 22 moving or if something’s going on, you need to facilitate his 

3 no outstanding warrants, or make sure they’re okay to come 23 movements, help the shift facilitate his movements. 

4 in. 24 You might call for police support. If we’re moving 

25 off the grounds, we’ll need traffic control. If we’re going 

4557 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

2 

2 

2 

2 

2 

Page 18 Page 20 

1 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. GMW-2 was 1 someplace impromptu, we’ll need to get someone out there on 

2 marked for identification.) 2 site to look and see what’s going on. 

3 BY MR. Bl-ITMAN: 3 Part of that function of that command center agent 

4 Q Okay. Let me show you GMW-2, which is another 4 istogenexateoneofthesereports. Andwbatitdoes,it 

5 document provided by the Secret Service. Can you tell us 5 documents what happaxd that day pretty much, and it 

6 what that document is? 6 documents what is-going to happen. 

7 A It’s a handwritten dates, times, locations. I’ve 7 So the shicthat comes on, tlnzy pick up the 

8 never seen this document before. It references movements in 8 preceding shift report and it says, “Okay, wixm the President 

9 1996, October of ‘96. “2nd floor - Res,” “Ground Floor,” 9 - when this shift was relieved, tbe Presideat was in the 

0 “Oval Office,” “South Grounds,” “Depart South Grounds.” 10 Oval Office.” And then it shows wbae he’s moved throughout 

1 It looks like possibly movements of one of the 11 the day, and if the Fit Lady was there or if another 

2 pro&tees within the White House. 12 protcctee was there. and the times he arrived and the times 

3 Q Is this a PPD log or is this a Uniformed Division 13 be left, just as a running document of his activities. 

4 log, if you know? 14 Q You’ve referred to this person as the command 

5 A I can’t tell. 15 center agent? 

6 Q You can’t tell? 16 A Yeah. 

7 A There’s no designation. I’ve never seen a 17 Q And is that what the person is called? 

8 handwritten document like that. 18 A Well, the name of the room is W-16. I don’t know - 

9 Q What’s the reference. at the top, if you know? It 19 why. I don’t know what that designates. 

0 looks like a SIG number. 20 Q And is that a room in the White House? 

1 A When I saw SIG, that’s the name of the weapons that 21 A Y&h. yes. 

2 we carry. I don’t know -- I don’t know what that means. I 22 Q Andisthatsortofthcncrve~~taastothc3 don’t know. 23 it’s the. command center as to how the President’s going to bc _ 

4 Q Okay. 24 protected? 7 

2.5 A That’s accurate, yeah. 

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III rc: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-PagcTM July 23,1998 

1 

Page ‘I Page 23 

I Q And who mans it? I mean. somebody. I suspect, has I someone on the grounds. ThereIs different levels of 

2 to be in charge of knowing evtFthing that the individual 2 supervision. The - agent is the person that’s kind of 

3 protectors know. that is. whexe the President is. where he’s 3 knowing what’s going on, passing information. ! 

4 supposed to go. whether something unusual is going on. 4 If something is important, there’s a notification 

5 A Mm-hmm. 5 list of people you should notify when like there’s -- the 

6 Q I suppose the President exxq now and then alters 6 President would like to play golf, and so he needs to -- 

7 from his tx@ar schedule and then - 7 he’ll tell Ops and he’ll tell the working supervisor, he’ll 

8 A Yes. 8 tell the shift leader who’s with him at the time. He’ll tell 

9 Q -- does something. I mean. be’s a htunan being. 9 Uniformed Division, he’ll notify Transportation Section. 

1 0 You know, be wants to go and have some ice cream or something 0 He just disseminates to everyone, “Hey, we need to 

1 1 like that, I don’t know. He wants to go walk outside the 1 move. We need to get prepared.” 

1 2 White House grounds. I don’t know. But somebody has to know 2 Q Is there -- and see if you can help me with this. 

1 3 that and then set it all up. Is that the person in the 3 Is there one person -- when the President is being protected 

1 4 command center, or WC? 4 during an eight-hour shift -- 

1 5 A ItstarLstbere. 5 A The President’s always protected. 

1 6 Q It starts there, okay. 6 Q Pardon me. The President’s always protected. 

1 7 A It also starts in our opuations center that is -- 7 During an eight-hour shift is there one person in that shift 

I 8 it handles trips that are coming up. planned trips out of the 8 who will know probably more than everyone else, that one 

1 9 area. And our operations -- bow you can best describe it is, 9 person will know almost everything? 

2 10 W-16 handles what’s going on now, and Ops handles what’s 0 A The -- again, it’s very hard to say that because 

2 !I going on in the future. I you could be on standing post outside the door, and one of 

2 12 If he’s going to go to the Democratic Convention, 2 the stewards or someone, a staff person comes up and 

2 !3 then the staff would caU Operations. and they would get that 3 they’ll -- we get information from many different places, not 

2 14 baII roILing and get it an advance team together to go out 4 always -- the President doesn’t always put us in the loop on 

2 !5 and begin that process. -is what’s going on right now. 5 where he’s going first. I 

Page 22 Page 2, 

1 Q Who mans m 1 So sometimes the more senior and shabby staff 

2 A Shift agents. 2 people, when they -- they have a meeting with him, and he 

3 Q Shift agents. 3 says, “You know, I feel like playing golf today.” Then they 

4 A Right. 4 walk by us and say, “Hear you’re going golfing.” And they 

5 Q So you manned it for some period of time? 5 know we need to get the word out and prepare. 

6 A Probably 50 or more times. 6 And so at that point in tin-x the. agent that’s 

7 Q Okay. It’s just the regular duty of being a shift 7 standing post, he x&y be very junior, but he’s the most in 

8 agent. 8 the know at that point in time. And the first thing he does 

9 A Yeah. 9 is call-and put the word out. Again, it’s a conduit of 

1 0 Q Okay. 0 information. 

1 1 A It’s part of the shift. yeah. Every day you have 1 As far as one person that is in the know all the 

1 2 your assignments and one of those assignments is W-16. And 2 time, every day, no. It’s a moving, changing type thing. 

1 3 so you know that a day in advance. 3 The shift leader knows a lot, the,ent knows a lot, the 

1 4 You show up, you get the previous shift report, you 4 people who are on the shift, the post standers, sometimes 

1 5 see what’s going on, you talk to the guy that was there 5 find out through talking to people what he’s going to do, 

1 6 before, anything happening, any movements, any threats, any 6 where! he’s going to go. 

1 7 anything, and get the information of the day. 7 And the person they call second supervisor, who is 

1 8 You prepare a quick briefing for your shift that’s 6 above the shift leader, is usually -- is on compound at all 

1 9 coming in, let them know what’s going on, pass that 3 times. 

2 0 information off. So you’re basically a conduit of 3 Q What’s that person’s name? 

2 1 information. 1 A He’s called a second supervisor, and in the upper z 

2 2 Q Is there a supervisor during one of these eight- 2 level management of PPD, they’re t&e people that -- he is th 

2 3 hour shifts that you’re protecting the President? Is someone 

2 4 -- who’s in charge? 

2 5 A Theagent is in charge, but there’s always 

3 on-site supervisor that actually would move with the _ 

1 President. T 

s Q What does the shift leader do? 

Page 21 - Pace 24 
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In rc: Grand Jury Proceedings 

Page 25 

1 A The shift leader directs the shift, prepares the 

2 shift. Again, within the compound - we’re pm 

3 comfortable within the compound. We know who’s supposed to 

4 beintbere. 

5 But they’re thinking about trips off compound. 

6 where they need to facilitate cars and police and all these 

7 other entities. So that was the big thing, having - as a 

8 shift leader, you would need to direct the shift. make sure 

9 everybody’s where they’re supposed to be, all the armaments 

1 0 where it’s supposed to be. 

1 1 If there’s a movement somewhere, that wz have 

1 2 proper people and posting out where we’re going. Is it a 

1 3 safe environment? Are there any special things wtz need to 

1 4 know? We need to brief the shift about where we’re going. 

1 5 so he diIrcts the shift. 

1 6 Q Were you ever a shift leader? 

1 7 A Yes, Iwas. 

1 8 Q How many times, approximately? 

1 9 A I was more of a shift leader in the absence of 

2 ‘0 others on weekends, a case when some of the more senior 

2 1 people would be off sometimes. 

2 :2 But I was probably a shift leader probably 25, 30 

2 :3 times. 

2 4 Q Do each of the shift agents see what’s been marked 

2 ‘5 as GMW-3, that is, the PPD shift reports? 

Multi-Pagcm July 23, 1998 

I 

Page 2-Y 

1 other people and -- like the President has just decided he’s 

2 going to play golf today. And then YOU hear that from one of 

3 tlx: stewards, who tells one of the agents. and then you turn 

4 that over to command center, I guess. 

5 A Roger, absolutely. 

6 Q What type of information are you supposed to turn 

7 over? 

8 A Things that impact his security, things that impact 

9 us as far as preparing. The last thing we want to do is get 

0 blindsided, whem he comes out and goes, “Let’s go,” and we 

1 don’t know where we’re going. We can’t operate in that way. 

2 So advance notice is crucial. So we have many 

3 sources of information within the White House, among the 

4 staff and the workers and the stewards, people like that. 

5 Unifdnntxi Division must talk back and forth, you know. 

6 Q And how do you communicate with the command center? 

7 A By radio and phone. 

8 Q Would you ordinarily report to the command center 

9 who is with the President, who physically - if the President 

0 is in the office and someone visits him, would you normally 

1 report that? 

2 A It’s not done that way because there’s so many 

3 people that are -- it’s like a beehive of activity. When 

4 be’s got groups of guests in the White House, groups of 

5 guests in the Oval Office, a lot of times we’ll know about it 

Page 26 

1 A No. They’re available to them, but they -- I 

2 wouldn’t look at one unless I generated one. I’ve generated 

3 these,before when I’ve work4 Q So do you actually -- you don’t actualIy sit there 

5 and type all this -- I mean, type out the words, do you? 

6 Or -- there are codes for it, I hope. 

7 A Thisistheexact--yeah,wetypethisout. 

8 Q You type that out, and that’s the person - the 

9 command center agent does that? 

0 A Yeah. 

1 Q How many people within the command center? Is it 

2 just a single person? 

3 A It depends. If the President’s -- well, again, 

4 we’re getting -- we’re getting into security. 

5 Q Okay. 

6 A Is it okay if I talk to them about this? 

7 Q Actually, I’m going to withdraw the question. 

8 A Okay. 

9 Q Okay. 

‘0 A To answer your question, there can be 50 people in 

,I there, there can bc one person in there. People come and go. 

:2 It’s a -- we don’t have a whole lot of work space there. So 

83 it’s a -- it’s a very hectic place 

:4 Q Okay. Tell us -- you said that often or sometimes 

:5 while protecting the President you’ll get intelligence from 

1 in advance from these. 

Page 28 

2 We‘ll brief about it from these, and then the 

3 second supervisor will know about it. and he may step in, or 

4 the shift leader may step into the Oval and preside -- not 

5 preside, but stand by and make sure that everything’s as it 

6 should be 

7 But peop6 coming and going on a daily basis, it’s 

8 just -- it’s much too numerous to documen t. And so the 

9 answer is no. 

0 Q Obviously it’s documented on the shift reports 

1 where the President physically is. That is, if he’s in the 

2 Oval Office, it’s noted that he’s in the Oval Office. 

3 A I!4tn-hmm. 

4 Q And it actually has, if the President’s in the Oval 

5 study, that he’s in the Oval study. 

6 A Mm-hmm. 

7 Q How do you know when the President is in the Oval 

8 study? 

9 A That’s hard to tell sometimes because -- again, 

0 we’re getting into the layout and everything, and I’m not 

1 sureifI-- 

: 

2 Q Well, I’ll show you a docEment. This actually has 

3 a different colored sticker on it. This will be marked Asia 

4 grand jury exhibit. This is a document, again, that’sbeen 

5 provided to us by the Secret Service. 

Page 25 - Page 28 
4560 

III rc: Grand Jury Proceedings Mull 

Page 25 

1 A hfm-hmm. 

2 Q It will be marked as GMW-4. 

3 A Right. 

4 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. GMW-4 was 

5 marked for identiftcation.) 

6 BY MR. BIT-l-MAN: 

7 Q It’s a diagram of the West Wing. 

t 

1 

1 

1 2q - 

1 3 

1 4 

1 50 P 

1 6m 

1 I-. 

1 8 Q I’m a little unclear about that. This grand jury 

1 9 hasn’t, but other grand juries have heard that the postings 

2 o of agents in the Uniformed Division, 

2 1 m-- 

2 2 A That’s correct. 

2 3 Q -- and then outside the Oval Office. 

2 4 A That’s correct. 

2 5 Q 

Page 3C 

1- 

2 A9’ 

11 0Q In the Oval Office, and would that include the 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

11 

1’ 

1, 

1’ 

21 

2 

2’ 

2 

28 

2. 

1 study area? 

2 A Yes, it would. 

3 Q I don’t want you to get in any security area. 

4 Could you tell - could you visually tell sometimes whethex 

5 the President was in the study or not? 

6 A If you happened to be outside and you were looking 

7 into the Oval and you’d say, “Well, he’s not in there,” and 

8 you haven’t heard on the radio that he’s moving. he’s either 

9 gone to the bathroom or gone into the study. 

0 But you don’t spend time peering in the window. 

1 You’re worried about making sure nobody’s coming the other 

2 way. 

3 So, conceivably, you could check, but. by and 

4 large, your attention’s diverted in the other direction. 

5 Q Are there other arcas -- without getting into 

ti- Pagcx July 23, 1998 

Page 3 1 

! 

1 security. the precise methods by which you would know this -- 

2 bcl are there 0th~~ ways of knowing whether the President is 

3 in t.. study. besides actually physically obsaving him? 

4 :\ Well. since the sttwards serve him coffe and -- 

5 scn:ctimcs they would come out and say, “He’s in the study.” 

6 y~sr :o let us know. 

7 But. understand, that’s -- it’s all conside& one 

8 artz. It’s just an extended portion of one area. 

9 Q Arc you surprised then to see then on the shift 

0 log. the shift reports, that the President is actually listed 

f as being in vie Oval study as opposed to the Oval Office? 

2 A I’m not surprised, because at times he m to the 

3 study to cut out -- to go to the pool sometimes. He goes to 

4 the study lo do other things. He has meetings in tbe study 

5 sometimes, and so we see. people that may go in the study 

6 door. 

7 The&s -- you know, the author-i& people can come 

8 and go as they want to. The chief of staff and all those 

9 people with a permanent -- an authorization can come and go 

0 as they wish. Sometimes they would have meetings in the 

1 study. That doesn’t surprise me at all. 

2 Q Okay. 

3 .4 It’s just not etched in stone that every time he’s 

4 in that study that there’s something on the shift report that 

5 indicates it, reflects it. 

Page 3. 

1 Q Now let me turn to Monica Lewinsky and ask you if 

2 you know her at all. 

3 A IhadoccasiontoseeherwhenIwasstandingpost, 

4 in instances when I’ve stood post. She was a worker in that 

5 ma, I’ve come to find out. I never knew her name, never 

6 spokewith her. D 

7 Again, stand&g post as a shift agent, as would 

8 many other people, she would traverse up and down the halls 

9 with papers, books, canying things, delivering things, doing 

0 business. Yes, I saw her, you know, many times. 

1 Q Can you estimate for the grand jury how many times 

2 you think you saw her in the West Wig? 

3 A Given that there were some days when I’d see her 20 

4 times up and down the hall, because her office was right doul 

5 from there where she worked out of, I probably saw her a 

6 hundred times. 

7 Q Have you known her to be in the Oval Office? 

8 A She was one of the people that I would look at as a 

9 -- when you’re standing post and the President‘s in the door 

3 behind you, all you care about is the people in that area are 

1 authorized. Once they’re authorized, they become almost 

2 invisible. You look for the ones thatam not authorized 

3 And, again, I knew who she was because I knew that. 

1 that picture matched her face on her pass, but I never knew - 

5 her name. So -- but I cannot recall any instances where I 

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Page 33 Pqe 3 

1 saw her directly wahc into the Oval. 1 specifics. I’\ c seen Harold IC~CS prohahly a thousand times 

2 Many times I saw her go around to deliver things to 2 up and down and in and out doors, and putting a datt with & 

3 Ms. Cunie and to the secretaries and over into the West 3 time with the Person in and out of a door, no, I don’t recall 

4 Lobby and things like that, doing -- going about business, 4 ht. 

5 always carrying stuff, always in a hurry. But I never had 5 Q Okay. Without putting a date on il. do you 

6 firsthand knowledge of her being in the Oval Office in my 6 remember an event like that’? That is, on a wcckcnd. with 

7 experience. 7 very few othu people around. where Mr. Ickes entus. and 

8 Q Let me ask the question a different way. Have you 8 here’s ahnosr no one else around. It’s just you and a 

9 ever known her to be alone with the President, in a room with 9 Uniformed Division officer. There were no secretaries. The 

0 the President when no one else was there? 10 President is in the Oval arca with a woman. Mr. Ickes c+ntas 

1 A Not to my knOWkdge. 11 and the womzn exi& through another door hnniuily. 

2 Q Has anyone ever told you, or have you ever heard 12 Q I have no recollection of anything like that. 

3 that the President was alone with her, Ms. Lewinsky? 13 Q Do you have any recollection of a conversation with 

4 A No. Again, I never knew who -- what her name was. 14 the Uniformed Division officer, John Muskett -- and you sa? 

5 I didn’t know that was her name until this came out in the 15 you don’t know who he is, but I’m just identifying - with 

6 media, and then I said, “I know her.” I’ve seen her. I 16 any Uniformed Division officer where the Unifonncd DivisaP 

7 don’t know her. 17 officer asks you, “What do you think the President is doing 

8 But to answer your question, no one has ever 18 in there?” 

9 relayed to me that they’ve seen her with the President alone 19 And that referenced the President being in the Oval 

0 at any time. 20 Office alone with a young woman, and then you responding w 

1 Q Now let me ask you whether you remem ber working 21 this Uniformed Division officer, “I don’t think he’d be that 

2 Easter Sunday of 1996. 22 stupid.” words to that effect. 

3 A Vaguely, I guess. I mean, it doesn’t jump out at 23 A I don’t recall that conversation at all. 

4 me, but -- Easter Sunday of ‘96? I was probably on the 24 Let me preface your question with something. When 

5 shift. 25 you stand post every day, all the time for 12 hours at the 

Page 34 Pse 3e 

1 It doesn’t jump out, any specifics of it, no, I 1 time sometimes, to keep alert and to keep awake, you tzik, 

2 can’t - I can’t recollect anything and put it to Easter 2 and you banter back and forth and just try to keep an edge, 

3 Sunday of ‘96. 3 fight the fatigue and remain alert. 

4 Q So it would not he unusual for you to work a 4 So we routinely, as shift members would talk, or 

5 particular holiday. 5 talk to the UD guys and joke or cajole or whatever. But I 

6 A No, not at all. 6 don’t remember specifically the conversation you just 

7 Q And so you wouldn’t remember that, “I remember it 7 referred to me &saying, “He wouldn’t be. that stupid,’ or 

8 because I rememba I had to give up my Easter Sunday.” 8 cognizant, realizing he was in there alone with a person. 

9 A You give up a lot of things on PPD. They don’t 9 Again, when we’re on post, we’re on post for 20 

0 stick out. You’d lose your holidays, basically. 10 minutes at the time, and you’re in a rotation where you jump 

1 Q Okay. Do you know a Uniform& Division officer by 11 from one to the next to the next to the next. You don’t 3-y 

2 the name of John Muskett? 12 in one place very long. 

3 A No, I don’t. I may know his face. I know a lot of 13 So - and I don’t know how anybody else did it, but 

4 them by face. But the name, John Musket& doesn’t - I 14 in order to keep my sanity and do my job, I would try to keep 

5 couldn’t identity him by that name. I5 my mind active in things I needed to do with my family and 

6 Q Do you remember an event - have any recolkction 16 things like that. And as long as I knew that authorized 

7 of any event occurring around Easter Sunday of 1996 when YOU 17 people were in and around the President, and he was safe, his 

8 were on duty - this is obviously on a Sunday - with very 18 little movements here and there, who was there -- as long as 

9 few people in the West Wing. The President is in the Oval 19 they were okay and they had that pass, that was my way of 

0 Oftice, and Harold Ickes comes down the hallway, enters into 20 doing my job. I was looking for the ones that didn’t, and 

1 the Oval Office, and then a young woman exits another door? 21 the ones that were okay, they were all okay. 

2 A I’m not following your question. 22 So I can’t speak for others-how they did their 

3 Q My question is. do you remember any of that. such 23 job. I just didn’t want to be the one that, “Hey, there’s 

4 that I just described? 24 somebody in here that’s not supposed to be,” meaning iley art 

5 A Again, there’s nothing that jumps out in my mind as 25 not a passholder. 

- 

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1 So just to give you -- this is how I work. 

2 Q Let me XC if I can -- and I understand that, Let 

3 me see. if I can refresh your recollection a little further, 

4 and that would be that on this Easter Sunday, you replaced ar 

5 officer, Reginald Hightower. Does that name -- 

6 A Yeah, I know Rcxie Hightower, yes. 

I Q Okay. You replaced him. - 

Sg0 A h’Itn-hmm. 

1 Q 1-b. The President had just 

2 received a phone call, had come in. The President had been 

3 in the study. 

4 Is this jogging your memory at all? 

5 A Again, in the scenario you present, when you say 

6 replaced Agent H&htower, it was my turn to push in the 

7 rotation, is what it was. So I’m suppoxd to be up there. I 

8 didn’t come up there because there’s something sinister going 

9 on. I came up there because that’s my time to push, and if 

!O you’re late, you get a bad reputation, so you can’t be late. 

!l I worked on the shift and pushed Reggie Hightower a 

!2 bunch of times. That one doesn’t stick out in my mind. 

13 I very well may have pushed him, probably did. But 

14 any conversation like what you’re indicating to me, I have no 

5 recollection of anything like that. 

I that. I think I would recall it. and I don’t specifically 

2 i-cdl that 

3 MK. BITTMAN: May we take a 1 C-minute break? 

4 TIIE FOREPERSON: That’s fme. 

5 Ml<. BITTMAN: Wonderful. thank you. 

6 Fifteen minutes, A--t? 

7 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

8 MR. BITTMAN: Thank you. 

9 (A brief recess was taken.) 

0 (Witness excused. Witness recalled) 

I THE FOREPERSON:. Agent -Wilson. you understand 

2 you’re still under oath? 

3 THE WITNESS: Yes 

4 BY MR. BITTMAN: 

5 Q Agent Wilson, the grand jurors had a couple of 

6 questions for you. First. there are some general questions 

7 about the security of the President. 

8 And that is. how accurately, how precisely do you 

9 know where the President is? 

:0 A Most of the time we know exactly whem be is. We 

1 guard areas, basically, and let him move and function within 

2 those areas. They may shrink. they may expand, depending on 

3 what he’s doing. We maintain security around him, maintain a 

4 perimeter, so we know about where he is at all times. 

5 Q And when you say “about,” is there like a time 

Page 38 

1 Q Are you saying, Mr. Wilson, that it didn’t happen, 

2 or arc saying that. “It may have happened. I just don’t 

3 recollect ic” the conversation? 

4 A The conversation with Mr. Muskett? 

5 Q Yes. 

6 A I have no reec&etion of that type of 

7 conversation. As a general rule, I try to keep opinions out 

8 of things, even when I’m talking to UD people, because people 

9 talk. And so trying to remain apolitical and trying just to 

0 domyjob. 

1 Again, I don’t remember this guy. I may know him, 

2 but not know him by him. I don’t remember anyone coming up 

3 to me and saying, “Hey, he’s in there with somebody and I 

4 wonder what he’s doing.” 

5 Again, working on a Sunday, work on Easter, you 

6 know -- I’m there, but I’m also mentally, you know, somewbae 

7 else, just trying to get by and be’s safe and so everything’s 

8 okay. 

9 If I had seen anything inappropriate or discussed 

0 anything inappropriate, which I consider that would be 

1 inappropriate, I think I would remember that. and I don’t 

2 recall what you’re saying. 

3 So I’m not in a position to say, welI, it might 

4 have happened. I can’t speculate. But if I -- I know 

5 myself. and if I would have engaged in a conversation like 

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1 frame within which you have to be able to get the President - 

2 - that is, if something -- frankly, one of the grand jurors 

3 used as an example, when the airplane hit the side of the 

4 White House -- 

5 A Right. 

6 Q - without commenting on where the President was at 

7 that time, is there a t&L frame within which you guys must 

8 be able to get the President and then to put him in another 

9 secure location? 

0 That is, there’s a 30-second window, you guys 

1 always -- you have to be within 30 seconds of physically 

2 grabbing the President. or something Iike that. 

3 A Yeah. Them’s no specific time limit. We want to 

4 stay as close as possible, while allowing him to perform his 

5 official duties. So that may be this distance at some times, 

6 depending on the environment which he’s in. 

7 If he’s in a safe environment. which we deem to bc 

8 safe, such as the White House, we can expand to give bim more 

9 room and more personal space and allow him some freedom and 

0 some sense of privacy. 

I So -- but. again, we always know, based on the post 

2 standards of people who am - the e people, we 

3 always know about where he is. so we can - wc can go in and 

4 retrieve him and move him if need be. 

5 I don’t think in five years we didn’t know where he 

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I was -- and when I say in general, again. it depends on where 

2 he is. In a friendly environment like dx West Wing, we knou 

3 what w he’s in, But he can traverx hack and forth within 

4 that arez very frzsly without us being xutely aware of 

5 exactly where he is. 

6 I don’t know if these -- and I’m assuming these two 

7 restrooms right here don’t have other exits. He may come in 

8 this room and the door’s closed, and we’re standing outs& 

9 the door, and we know he’s in here. He may he in the men’s 

1 0 room, but we know he’s in here and we could find him. 

1 1 If there was an exit to that door, we’d have 

1 2 someone on the other side. And, again, we can certainly say 

1 3 with certainty that he’s in here, when, in fact, he might be 

1 4 in that men’s room, but we don’t know that. 

1 5 So I’d want to qualify my any. 

1 6 Q ~~he’sintheOvalarea,thatis,theareaof 

1 7 the Oval Off&, where does that mean - you guys know that 

1 8 he is definitely where? In what rooms must he be in? 

1 9 A ‘Ihe Oval means the Oval Off& proper, but it does 

2 10 include tbe bathroom and it does include the study, the 

2 II Oval/study, because there’s a very short hallway -- as shown 

2 12 in the diagram, there’s a very short hallway that contains a 

2 ‘3 bathroom and another small office going into the study. 

2 4 Many, many, many times he’s heen working in the 

2 15 Oval, and he’ll walk into the study to read something, have a 

Page 12 

Multi-Pagem July 23, 1998 

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1 whmc 1~. is, bccnnsc we do. 

;i 2 And. like I said. the access and egress is 

3 controllc41. and we know this is a safe area 

I -I Q You refLrcnccd this in your answer also. One of 

5 the grand jurors asked whether the President has ever pulled 

6 the slip? That is, has ht: ever been out of your pnzence 

7 where you guys just don’t know where he is? 

8 A Absolutely, positively not. Never. Matter of 

9 fact. af certain times. like on a vacation, when he and the 

1 IO First Lady would want to, you know, walk on the beach or have 

1 II .-some private time together, he would even talk to us how to 

I 12 best facilitate it, where we could still provide security and 

I I3 give them, you know, time to walk on the beach or do 

I 14 something in the evening, things like that. 

I I5 - He’s vay forthcoming with helping us in 

1 6 understanding what our mission is. Tl-zre was never even an 

1 .7 intent that I’m aware of of him trying to give us the slip, 

1 8 as you so accurately put it, no. 

I 9 Qi !O 

2 !1 

2 !2 

2 !3 t=g-- 

2 !4 m 

i !5 APage 44 

1 cup of coffee or something. The steward may bring him 

2 something. He sits in there. It’s more comfortable. 

3 If I recall correctly, there might be a fireplace 

4 in there. I can’t even remember. It’s been a while. But 

5 it’s just a different environment. 

6 And, I mean, we have the doors covered. We really 

7 don’t care that he’s literally from here to the wall, down 

8 the halL We still know that if something happens, we could 

9 retrieve him in short order. 

1 0 Q What about the dining room? Could he be in the 

1 1 dining room? Would you know when he’s in the dining room 

1 2 this part of the dining room? 

1 3 A That’s what we call the study. 

1 4 Q That’s the study, too. 

1 5 A Yeah, that’s the study. 

1 6 Q All right. So when he’s in the Oval Office, he 

1 7 shuts the door. 4-b 

1 8 _ You know that he is either in the Oval Office. in 

1 9 the restroom, in the study, or in his -- 

2 0 A The dining area. 

2 1 Q -- dining area. 

2 2 A This is all in a very close -- this is close 

2 3 proximity, okay? Very close proximity. Again, from this 

2 .4 Oval door to the study, it’s from here fo wall, it’s pretty 

2 :5 close, and so we’re not at a disadvantqe that we don‘t know 

8 

9 

1 0. 

91 

1 2m 

1 3 Q You also mentioned that you did the push with 

1 4 Reginald Hightower. Actually, maybe you don’t remember 

1 5 specifically getting the push or pushing him, whicheva way 

1 6 it gocs. but when you replace someone -- and, actually. I 

1 7 shouldn’t say that. What’s the correct term? 

1 8 A Push. 

1 9 Q Push. When you push someone, does that pe-rson whom 

2 10 you have pushed give you any of the information as to where 

2 :l the President is? 

2 12 A If it’s pertinent and if its ’ necessary, you know. 

-- 

2 !3 The steward said, “He may be. moving soon.” You know, he 

2 14 might pass something. He might, you know, talk about how - 

2 !5 tired he is and iust keen on walkinn. 

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I The push is -- tbc push happens like this, wberc 

2 you’rr -- you want to move boxuse the guy at the end wants 

3 to ~2 off and go cat. He’s only got 40-some minutes lo eat. 

4 And lfyou sit and talk and chatter at each push. by tbc lime 

5 you it to him, his dinnt&me’s down the -- you know, 

6 minimal. 

7 So tl~ push is a very prompt. ordcriy, quick 

8 transiuon, and if tber.z is information that needs to be 

9 imparted. it will be. If it’s superfluous, if it doesn’t 

0 mattez -- a lot of times you push somebody and walk by him 

1 and give him a nod and off you go. 

2 Q How do you know where the President is when you 

3 push someone else off? 

4 AA 

I don’t have the authorzration. 

2 That’s how I work. I don’t know how ot& do it. 

3 Q But aq I understand one of your roles, I 

4 unfortunately. i? to -- well, not unfortunately, but it’s to 

5 regulate the traffk in and out of the Oval Office. 

6 A Regulate ths traffic? I wouldn’t call it that. I 

7 would say our role is to ensure that the environment is safe. 

8 Now. how \ve may do that is in a lot of different 

9 ways. I do it by making sure the people around him are 

0 passholders. And once I determine that, I am satisfied that 

I that criteria has basn met. 

2 Q What if on a weekend, let’s say, it’s quiet around 

3 in the West Wing. The President’s in the Oval Off&, the 

4 door is shut. You’ve just pushed somebody off. You know 

5 he’s in there. You don’t know what he’s doing. And some 

6 staffer comes up and asks you, you know, “I’ve got this 

7 question for the President, but it’s not that important. Is 

8 he with anyone?” 

9 Would that be something that’s not uncommon? 

0 A It’s not uncommon. I mean, that kind of stuff 

1 happens all the time. 

2 Q But if you didn’t ask your previous guy you pushed 

3 off whether the President was with anyone, you won’t know. 

4 A Right. And if the person is a staff member, a 

5 senior staff member, and has a pass, they can go in there. I 

8 Now, when he’s at work. be’s either in the Oval or 

9 be’s in one of the -- the Cabinet Room or the Roosevelt Room 

0 doing a function. You know, tberc’s places that be goes most 

I of the time. Those are the top three. 

2 Then, you know, he might be over at the Old EOB, 

3 but you know. you would know about it, and you would go with 

4 him. 

5 With experience, you know where be is by where the 

Page 46 

1 agents are, because you know the posting around those 

2 different rooms. And when you see somebody standing outside 

3 on tbz Colonnade. the President’s in the Oval Office. 

July 23, 1998 

I 

Page 47 1 

7 A And/or the study area, yes, exactly. 

8 Q Okay. Would it also be important for you to know 

9 if the President is with anyone? 

0 A My criteria was if a pas&older is in tbexe, all 

1 betsareoff. 

2 Q You don’t care. 

3 A Absolutely, positively not. I care about the ones 

4 that aren’t authorized. Because tbefz were so many of them 

5 that had permanent pins and passes that you couldn’t get 

6 cat&t up in all that, and up and down the halls and back and 

7 forth. 

8 You know, during an eight-hour shift, you would 

9 literally sift through 100 people sometimes in the ball, and 

0 you’re looking for the one that isn’t supposed to be there. 

1 The ones that are there, once I confvm that, okay, 

2 you’re a passholder. I’ve matched your face up with the 

3 picture on your pass, you become invisible to me. And once I 

4 realize that’s you. I see you again and again and again, I 

5 take no notice of you. I want to look for the ones that 

Page 4~ 

1 mean, that’s an access, it’s a full access pass. 

2 To my experience, many times they wouldn’t talk to 

3 us, to say, “Hey, is it okay to go in?” or - I mean, these 

4 people knew their role a lot of times, and where, you know, 

5 someone like Stephanopoulos would walk - you know, walk 

6 rightbyus. Andyouknow,weknewwhohewas,andbe 

7 knew3 

8 It’s not like that. I mea& once you see somebody 

9 and you may nod gwd morning or something, you don’t say, 

0 “Good morning” or “Hello” 20 times in a day, I mean, every 

1 time you see so-. So they become invisible. You know 

2 who they are, and tbzy go about tbeir business. 

3 We want to let than do tbzir job, and we’re doing 

4 our job. It’s not really - it’s a coexistence. It’s not 

5 such a commingling like you think. It’s a coexistence, to 

6 wberewelettbundowbattbeyneedtodoinasafe 

7 environment. 

8 Q 

9 

Would anyone ask you that question? 

2 A You know, occasionally, you tni@ : you know, 

3 “What’s going on? Anything going on? Is he moving?” 

4 We’d care about if be was moving. because wbea be 

5 moves. we’ve got to move. and where we’re moving to, ax ntxd 

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1 to make sure that’s secure, and in order to do that. we ncxxl 

2 advance notice. So that type of information we need to 

3 impart to each other as soon as we get it and have to do it 

4 in a timely fashion. 

5 So, yeah, some people - yeah. they’d push, “HLT. 

6 how are you doing? How are you? How’s tl~ kids,” you know. 

7 that type of thing. All types of conversation might come up 

S in the 20-second span when you’re pushing. “Anything going 

9 on?’ “Nab.” “Okay. See you in 20 minutes.” 

0 It’s very - it’s the only way to keep your sanity, 

1 okay? It’s a very formal environment, and we handle it wiith 

2 professional informality sometimes. 

3 Q One of the grand jurors asked - of course, you 

4 said you don’t have an attorney, and I asked you a couple of 

5 questions that may have called for some security issues, 

6 answers about the security menstues at the Wbitc: House, and 

7 you indicated that you may want to talk UJ your counsel. 

8 And the grand juror had a question, since you don’t 

9 have your attorney, who were you referring to? 

0 A Tbue’s a Srxret Service -- it’s called a 

I facilitator. I think there’s an issue that’s still pending 

2 and still being arbitrated about the security of the compound 

3 and then our function. 

4 Tbey’~ very concerned as an agency that a lot of 

5 this type of information -- too much of this type of 

Page 5C 

1 information would get out and would threaten one of our 

2 proteeteer. And I’ve been insmcted to, you know, be 

3 careful of tbe line of questioning and make sure it’s germane 

4 to the topic, an& “Ifthae’s any question, you might want 

S to consuIt with us.” 

6 That’s not my altomey. That’s an agency attorney 

7 that’s - be is representing this proceeding and representing 

B officially. He’s not my personal attorney. I haven’t 

? retained him, and be’s not looking out for my best interests. 

1 Q That attorney is - the&s. I think, one from the 

I Secret Service here and then a couple of attorneys from the 

Z Department of Justice, who’s representing the Secret Service; 

1 is that right? 

4 A That’s correct. 

j Q Okay. 

5 A Just met the one today, so -- 

1 Q You also referencal - I asked you about a 

< conversation involvini John Muskett. You didn’t remember the 

P conversation. You said you might have remembered it because 

) it seaned inappropriate. 

I Can you explain what you meant by “inappropriate’? 

! Was it inappropriate to have such a conversation, or was it 

I inappropriate - was the subjczt matter inappropriate? 

I Actually, let me withdraw that. Was the subjat 

j matter of the conversation inappropriate, or did you mean 

4565 

July 23, 1998 

Page 51 

1 that it was inappropriatt: for the t’res&nt to be behaving in 

2 any activity that was referenced in &e comment by the 

3 officer? 

4 A I think we’re talking about appie~ and oranges 

5 here. First. I didn’t comment on \\hat - on what this 

6 conversation was, because I don’t rrsall it. So I’m 

7 reluctant to comment on my feelings about a convxxsation &at 

8 I can’t nxatl that occurred. 

9 Q Okay. 

0 A My version if inappropriateness would be something 

1 where there’s a security issue or somdhing where we wae 0oOt 

2 doing what we were supposed to do. 

3 If he would have engaged me in a - we’re talking 

4 hypothetically lx-z. If he would have said, We& ‘ you know, 

5 I smell smoke,” or something, you know, then I would have 

6 gone to a higher state of alertness and probably advised 

7 somebody, taken note of rhc situation. 

8 But I didn’t deem those words rhat you told me that 

9 he said, I -- I’ve bad a thousand convasations with 

0 Uniformed Division personnel, probably ten thousand 

1 conversations with them over the five years I was there. If 

2 that conversation took place, I don? recall it. 

3 If - and I said to you that if a conversation like 

4 that, wlxre he’s talking about, you know. “He’s in there with 

5 somebody,” and be’s implying that rbae’s something going on, 

Page 5: 

1 I think I would have taken note of that, because it’s -- 

2 that’s highly unusual in my mind. I think I would have 

3 remembered that. But, frankly, I don’t. 

4 Q Have you heard rumors about the President’s 

5 activity in the White House? Have other Uniformed Division 

6 guys or other agents told you about things that they’ve heard 

7 about the Presid&t being alone in the. Oval Office with youq 

B women? 

3 A That conversation has never taken place. I’ve 

3 never spoken with anyone about -- I mean, I’m trying to 

I understand what you’re saying. I mean, are you putting this 

2 in a sexual connotation? 

3 I mean, he has meetings at different times with 

4 different people, staff members, and I was fully aware of 

j these. But nothing that it was, again, inappropriate. It 

j was official business, as how I viewed that, and nothing. 

7 more. 

3 Q You talked about seeing Monica Lewinsky in the 

j hallway back and forth in the West Wing. 

1 A With regularity. 

I Q Have you ever seen her on a vid-eo monitor? ~ 

P A Never. 

- 

I Q You also said -- you testified that you never knew 

1 that Monica Lewinsky and the President were alone toge&er. 

i Did you ever have any reason to believe that they were alone 

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I together? 

2 A No. 

3 Q You also said you never ralked 1o Monica Lzwinsky. 

4 Have you heard her speak to anyone. as far as you rcmembcr? 

5 A Again. up and down the halls. carrying stuff. going 

6 from one place to another You know, sometimes she’d be 

7 walking maybe with another staff mtmber and. you know. 

8 chatting or carrying on a conversation. I never -- they 

9 never stopped in front of me and continued the conversalion 

0 to a point where I could overhear what was being said. 

I I’ve beard her speak words, you know. but thae’s _ 

2 no actual specific recollection of what the conversation or 

3 the content of Ihe conversation was. 

4 Walking out of Betty Currie’s office sometimes, 

5 she’d have some things. You know, “Betty do you ntzd this? 

6 Okay, I’ll get it.” You know, that type of thing. and off 

7 she’d go. And that’s the extent of that. 

8 Q Do you know a steward named Bayani Nelvis? 

9 A Oh, yeah. 

0 Q Has he ever told you about any incident involving 

1 the Pnzsident where the President was alone with, say, 

2 someone like Monica Lewinsky? You didn’t know bz name then, 

3 but with a young intern or a young staffer? 

4 A No, we never had a conversation like that. 

5 MR. BITTMAN: Do any of the grand jurors have any 

Page 54 

1 other questions? 

2 (No response.) 

3 MR. BlTMAN: I actually want to go through more 

4 documents. 

5 BY h4R. BITI-MAN: 

6 Q I’ve put three more documents in front of you. The 

7 next one is marked GMW-5, which is called a F-l movement log. 

8 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. GMW-5 was 

9 marked for identification.) 

0 BY MR. BITI-MAN: 

1 Q Would you identify that document? I mean, do you 

2 recognize that document? 

3 A I can surmise what this document is. I’ve nevcz 

4 seen one. F-l is a post in the residence that’s manned by 

5 Uniformed Division. and what it does is - although I’ve 

6 never physically seen one, I can recognize what it does. 

7 It indicates people going up into the residence 

8 area and what time they come down. 

9 Q What does-mean? 

0 A It’s a designation of a post. 

1 Q Okay. Where is2 A The xsidence. 

3 Q It’s the residence? Who prepares this? 

4 A Uniformed Division. 

5 Q And it’s just -- is it when the President goes -- 

.i- 

- 

I 

PagcM July 23, 1998 

Page 55 

1 leaves the residence and arrives at the residence’? 

2 A Again, I’ve never seen this document, so I don’t 

3 know what their internal -- when I worked with the Uniformed 

4 Division I worked in Foreign Missions Branch. I don’t know 

5 what their internal administrative requirements are for the 

6 submission of documentation like this. 

7 But I know-that’s a post that we share with 

8 Uniformed Division and -- but we don’t fill this out. So I’m 

9 assuming that this is what they do. 

0 It appears to indicate the presidential movements 

I- as well. I thought that this just indicatiguests or people 

2 that come up and down from the residmce. It scans to 

3 include the President as well. 

4 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. GMW-6 was 

5 marked for identification.) 

6 BY MR. BITIMAN: 

7 Q Okay. If you coutd turn to tbz next exhibit, which 

8 is GMW-6, do you recognize this document? 

9 A It’s a command post log. This document is 

0 generated usually from -- normally when there’s a movement 

1 off compound, it’s -- this is -- this type of document is 

2 generated. 

3 This stems odd ro me. I’ve never seen it in this 

4 format before. 

5 Like I said, there’s a command post log wben he , 

Page it, 

1 kaves the White House. Say, he’s going to the Hilton Hotel. 

2 The Hilton Hotel has the command post log. It’s part of tbe 

3 official paperwork that’s mrned back in after the visit. 

4 This is a command post log for inside the White 

5 House, which I’m not familiar with. This could be a 

6 Uniformed Division log, although “command post log” is a team 

7 that we use. This d&&t is - as part of the advance 

8 package, not in compound. WC don’t do comman d post logs for 

9 his movements within the residence. 

0 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. GMW-7 was 

1 marked for identification.) 

2 BY MR. BI’ITMAN: 

3 Q Let’s turn to tbe last document, marked GhfW-7. Do 

4 you recognize this document? 

5 A Well, fit off, I recognize my handwriting. This 

6 is - again, when be leaves -wbenhekavestheWhiteHouse 

7 -whataW-16does,agoodW-l6agent,wiUftlloutthe 

8 command post log for the agent that’s out there doing the 

9 advance. 

0 So when he comes back - what I did htxe is, the 

I POTUS went somewbae, maybe jog@g or doing something, and 

2 when he comes back, whereva be wen~-ws an advance 

3 agent out there that’s doing the security ~IXJE. Part of his 

4 paperwork when he comes back is, you know. any incidents 7 

5 happen, how it went, the saunty setup. everything else. 

Page 53 - Page56 
4567 

In re: Grand Jusy Proceedings Multi-Pagem July 23, 1998 

Page 57 P2ge 5s 

I Part of the required documentation is the command 1 who was protecting the President t-1 

2 post log. Because he’s so busy on site, sometimes he gets a 2 --.-I would you have -i)ne 

3 command agent out there in his command post out there -- 3 with the President’ 

4 because. we have one on site as well -- that’s supposed to do 4 A Oh. yeah. If your shift is working, you provide 

5 this log. The guys in the field don’t do them. They don’t 

6 understand that PPD nuds them. 

7 So the -agent a lot of times will fill it out 

s for him, departure, arrival, put it in his mailbox, and he 

9 includes this in his final report. It’s an administrative 9 Q Why doesn’t this document reflect where the 

0 document. IO President went? 

1 Q So this was a document that you prepared? 11 A It may have. If they took out my name, they may 

2 A That looks like my handwriting. 12 have taken out wl~~ he went. I don’t know. 

3 Q Does that mean that you were at the W-16 post when 13 Q Oh.okay. 

4 you did it, probably? 14 A I don’t know. Normally, if I fill out a command 

5 A Yeah, I would -- yeah. There’s no other way to do 15 post log. it’s a little thorough than this. So it may not he 

6 this, yeah. 16 my writing. 

7 Q And it was prepared on the President’s movements on 17 Q Okay. But you would have put in there that he wear 

8 November 20, 1995? 18 jogging around tlx Ellipse. or be took the beticoptzr to a 

9 A That’s what it indicates. 19 luncheon, or something Iike that. 

0 Q And would that have been your name that’s been 20 A Right. It has location of arrival, who I passed it 

I blocked out, probably? 21 to, meaning my notification -- I call and say, “Hey, they’re 

2 A I’m just saying this is pictorially similar to my 22 coming.” I write down who I passed it to, the time I passed 

3 handwriting. I’m not saying it is because there’s not a 23 it, location of arrival. 

4 name, but it’s -- it sure looks like my handwriting. I print 24 Q b-1( 

5 in a similar manner, so -- 25 -- 

II 

Page 58 Page 60 

1 And because in ‘95 I was doing shift work, I’m just 1 A Right. Again, every place we go there is a Person 

2 surmising and deducting that I very easily could have done 2 there in charge of establishing and setting up the security. 

3 this document, sure. 3 

4 Q We’re not going to hold you to that. But what it 4 

5 mflects is that at 6:lO p.m. the President left the south 51 _ 

6 grounds of the White House. 6 . _ 

7 A tight, either via walking out the gate on a jog or 7 \ 

g driving or helicopter, yeah. It could have -- he departed. 8m 

9 Q Hedeparted. 

0 A Right. 1: 4-4 

1 Q And then at 7:30 p.m. he returns. 

2 A tirrect. ::; 

3 Q And arrives on the south grounds again. 

4 A Absolutely. ::” 

15 -I6@h- t 16 A.. 

7- 17 Q -- 

8 A You’re there all the time until you’re -- if you 

9 have to use a facility or something, you get -- you call over 19 Q 

0 to Operations or get somebody in there to push you 

1 momentarily. But that’s your assignment, that’s your eight- 21 A t 

2 hour assignment. You don’t leave. You answer the phones. 22 - 

3 You prepare for the return. Fill out paperwork, do your Q 4-P 

4 shift reports. You’ve got plenty to do. i: _-@ii ’ 

:5 Q Had you IJUI-I the agent who -- or one of the agents 25 w 

Page 57 - P<i~e 60 

__ ---_- _ ” . - ,,..-.a\ es,-.< onmn 
4568 

1 rc: Grand Jury Proceedings Mult 

Page 61 

0 Now, if it were someplace other than the White 

. 

1 House, be would pass to probably the command post at tbc next 

5 Q Okay. Arc there any other documents that the 

6 Secret Service maintains that show the location of the 

:pwidmf7- 

9 A Right. 

0 Q If you wanted to know, for example. where the 

1 President was on a day thruz months ago. what document would 

2 you want to look at, if you had access to all rhe documents? 

3 A This one. 

4 Q And identify the exhibit number, please. 

5 A GMW-3. This is the running log of his security and 

Page 62 

1 his movements anywhere, anytime. 

2 Q That’s the most detailed log? 

3 A Without a doubt. 

4 MR. BITTMAN: Does the grand jury have any 

5 questions? Yes, sir? 

6 A JUROR: I have a question concerning the agent. 

7 When tbe President goes out of the country, do bs take a 

3 select few, say, the agent with most seniority, or is it 

3 possible that any agent could go? 

1 THE WITNESS: A shift is a shift. So if he’s going 

I out of town, or he’s going, you say, overseas - 

2 THE WLTNESS: Yes. 

3 THE mE.SS: -- most of time it’s going to be for 

I more than a day. So you’tl have all three shifts going. 

5 because you have to have 24-hour security, say, in Japan or 

5 whereverwego. 

7 The shift people that ate se&ted for those trips. 

3 there’s a cross-section of experience and youth. trying to 

2 bring the newer people along, give them experience as well. 

I Not everybody can go all the- time. Tbe majority of 

I people go for the extended trips because it just requires 

2 more people. Them’s so much more logistics and so much more 

3 security on a foreign trip, understandably. 

* But it’s not a -- I’d say probably on a foreign 

S trip, maybe two-thirds of a shift would go. or. you know, 

Pagcm July 23, 1998 

! 

. Yr” *- Page 65 

I over&If would go. 

2 A JUROR: Would most of those be the agents with 

3 the m05t seniority? 

4 

I, THE WI-I-NESS: 1-1 

5 

v 

/,- 

2- 

3 MR. BITMAN: Any other questions from the grand 

4 jurors? 

5 A JUROR: Yeah. Agent Wilson. you had mentioned on 

6 Government’s Exhibit No. 7 the location should have been 

7 filled in. Was that part of your responsibility wben you did 

8 training as well as a supervisor. i-7 

9 -to ensure that agents did fill in that location? 

!O THE WITNESS: 4-i 

;: k -- 

!3 4-i 

!4 ef-4 You know, it’s all 

!S looking abead. What’s going on now, preparing. 

1 

Page 6. 

1 Like I said. once a trip is over. some of these 

2 smaller - this is a very minute. small detail. I mean, we 

3 know where he went, because not only this, but the log will ‘. 

4 show where he went, This is just a duplication, and it’s 

5 more duplicative in nature and more of a formality. 

6 ,&s a supervisor, I wouldn’t go back and take an 

i a? apt’s log zd go, -7 

4 

9 .JVkn tbey turn it in to our administrative people, ~ 

0 they may say that, say, “Hey, fill out where he wt. He 

I went to the Hilton, right? Fill it out.” They may put that ; 

2 back in there. ,. 

3 PL like I said the reason it’s not fiUe@n, as 

4 I think it’s been pointed out, I would assume that it has -- 

5 1 always tried tr?fill it in with as complete information as 

6 possible.. If that.answers your question. 

7 h4R. BITTMAN: Any other questions? 

8 A JUROR: I have one question. How did you know 

9 the krve! of privacy that the President wanted at any * 

0 particular time? 

1 THE WITNESS: That’s part of the dilemma, that -- * 

2 you know, this whole thing, it’s an expansion and contraction 

3 of security. And the only way I figurod out how to do is 

4 just to know the people around him were authorized to be -- 

5 there. 

Page 61 - Pa@64 
Page tic Page 67-i 

In rc: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Pagcm July 23,1998 

r 

1 I don’t -- the last thing 1 would want is for the I A JUROR: I mean to see the President 

2 President to teLl a supervisor. “Hey, back your guys off 2 THE WITNESS: Oh. of COISC I mean, agaIn. 3-0” 

3 some, will you? Ciive me some room.” 3 know, hey don’t wear passes. YOU know, we know who they are 

4 You know, we don’t want that. We want him IO feel -1 and -- 

5 that he can. you know, come and go as be needs to and afford 5 A JUROR: She@ walks in? 

6 him some sense of movement, freedom. and privacy, and still 6 THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah 

7 provide optimum physical security. 7 A JUROR: Okay. 

8 It’s a very delicate balance, but it’s something 6 THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah. at all -- oh, yeah. 

9 that -- you develop a trust and you develop an understanding 9 A JUROR: Excuse me. I haxc another question. You 

1 0 and a rapport with someone after you see them move back and 10 said something about matching up the faces with the badge 

1 I forth and what they do and their habits, and you try to - I II within your p&meter. Are the badges and the faces checked 

1 2 mean, you don’t want him to be mad at us. I mean, we need to !2 beforetheygettoyourperimeter? 

I 3 take care of him. So we obviously want respect and we want a 13 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. And so - that’s why my 

1 4 rapport. 14 check is just a very cursory check. I know that the people 

1 5 So I would always try to or on the side of giving 5 that come in -- that’s what the Uniformed Division does. 

1 6 him more room. especially at the white House, especially. I ,6 They check, they have the p&meter. They’re the outer - 

1 7 mean, if George Stephanopoulos walked by me without a pass, I 7 they’re the first line of defense, and we’re the last line. 

1 8 could, by the letter of the law. stop him and make him show 8 So people that come in, ” wan1 to see your pass. I 

I 9 me a pass. But I’m not going to do that, because I know who 9 want to sa: it displayed, and I want to check out the 

2 0 he is, and I know he’s got a pass. He just chose not to wear 10 picture I don’t stop you or detain you, but I’ll do a quick 

2 1 it for whatever reason that day. ! 1 glance and make sure that that’s -- you’ve got an authorized 

2 2 So, you know, you try to -- you try to get along 12 White House pass to be in that -- an all-access pass to be in 

2 3 and you try to have a professional relationship. You might 13 that area So that’s my job. 

2 4 joke with him. say, “What, did you lose your pass?’ You !-I MR. BITTMAN: Okay, Agent Wilson. you’re excused. 

2 5 know, just to indicate that we took note that he - and he 15 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

Page 68 

1 MR. BIXTMAN: Thank you. 

2 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you, Agent Wilson. 

3 THE WITNESS: Thank you all. Have a good day. 

4 (The witness was excused.) 

5 (Wherwpon, at 11:35 a.m., the taking of the 

6 testimony in the presence of a full quorum of the Grand Jury 

7 was concluded.)” 

8 * * * * * 

Page 66 

1 might have lost it. 

2 And so you might do something like that. But you 

3 trytobecourteousandyoutrytolettbwknowthat\cle’rr 

4 doing our job. Affording him as much as you can room and 

5 still providing optimum security was our goal. 

6 A JUROR: O&r than your intuition and 

7 professional judgment, was there any way the Resident would 

8 ever indicate to you that be really didn’t want to be 

9 disturbed? 

0 THE WlTNESS: I think the supezvison - and as a 

I shift leader, I was so conscious of that, and I know my shift 

2 leaders were, and I know the sezond supervisors and the 

3 detail leaders were so sensitive to that issue, that long 

4 befoiz he asked for room, we were told to grant room. and 

5 that was the law of the day, to where you only be as close as 

6 you have to be. 

7 And if he’s among friends, if he’s in a safe place, 

8 that we’ve checked the people, we know who’s tLe, we have a 

9 good perimeta -- back off. And it’s okay. And tha:‘s the 

0 relationship we had, and I think it was very successful. 

1 MR. BlTIMAN: Yes, ma’am? 

2 A JUROR: Does the Fit Lady have praogatives? 

3 THE WITNESS: You know, I have experience being 

4 with the First Lady, but I wasn’t on her specific detail. 

5 She has people detailed to her. 

4569 

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I 

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1 

1 

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Page 65 - &e 6s 
4570 
4571 

SIC-2 12 (Rev g-19-94) ~ 

-1. 

OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

Date of transcription 4/24/98 

BRYANT OWEN WITHROW, JR., Lieutenant, United States 

Secret Service (USSS), Uniformed Division, was interviewed at the 

Office of the Independent Counsel (OIC), 1001 Pennsylvania 

Avenue, Washington, DC, 20004. Present for the interview were 

Associate Independent Counsel (AIC) MARY ANNE WIRTH, AIC MICHAEL 

TRAVERS and Department of Justice (DOJ) attorneys GARY GRINDLER 

and JONATHAN SCHWARTZ. WITHROW was interviewed under the terms 

of an agreement between OIC and DOJ. WITHROW was apprised of the 

official identities of the interviewers and the nature of the 

interview and thereafter provided the following information: 

WITHROW has been employed by the USSS since May of 1973 

and has been assigned to the White House for the past three 

years. WITHROW has never been assigned to a post near the Oval 

Office. WITHROW is the Lieutenant in charge of the Special 

Operations Division (SOD) of the USSS. The SOD handles special 

events and tours of the White House. 

WITHROW first met MONICA LEWINSKY in the Fall or Winter 

of 1995. WITHROW believes he met LEWINSKY in the East Wing while 

LEWINSKY was working in the Office of Legislative Affairs (OLA). 

WITHROW would pass the OLA at least once during his normal 

rounds. WITHROW was friendly with LEWINSKY, but they never spoke 

for more than thirty seconds. WITHROW never saw LEWINSKY outside 

the White House. 

On one occasion, LEWINSKY asked WITHROW when the 

President's helicopter was arriving at the White House. WITHROW 

can not remember what he told LEWINSKY; he may have given her a 

vague answer or he may have told her when it arrived. 

WITHROW believes he may have known when LEWINSKY was 

transferred to the Pentagon. WITHROW thinks LEWINSKY may have 

had a label as a Presidential "groupie." LEWINSKY wanted to know 

where the President was. WITHROW does not know of anyone else 

who was labeled a Presidential "groupie." WITHROW advised 

LEWINSKY would go to the Navy "mess." WITHROW presumed the 

reason LEWINSKY went to the Navy ltmessfl was because the walk from 

her office to the Navy "mess" could result in seeing the 

President. 

Investigation on 04/23/98 at Washington, DC File # 29-OIC-LR-35063 

Date dictated 4/23/98 
OK302a (Rev. 8-19-W) 

4572 

29-OIC-LR-35063 

Continuation of OIC-302 of BRYANT OWEN WITHROW, JR, .On 04/23/98 .Page 2 

WITHROW advised the telephone number -is the 

usss pager switchboard. WITHROW's personal identification number 

I is- WITHROW is not familiar with a pin of-. 

WITHROW advised his wife's birthday is 4-1, so he will 

use- as his pin for accessing voicemail. 

WITHROW advised he could have given LEWINSKY his 

business card, but he does not recall doing so. WITHROW was 

shown a photocopy of document "MSL-DC-00001170," which is a 

business card of BRYANT 0. WITHROW, JR. of the United States 

Secret Service, which was found in MONICA LEWINSKY's apartment 

during a consensual search, conducted by the OIC on January 22, 

1998. WITHROW advised the numbers written on the card B 

- were in his handwriting. 

WITHROW does not know any USSS employees who were 

friends with LEWINSKY. 

WITHROW does not know the names GLEN MAES or BAYANI 

NELVIS. WITHROW knows the White House stewards by sight alone. 

WITHROW has no knowledge of a relationship between LEWINSKY and 

any of the stewards. 

WITHROW knows JAMIE BETH SCHWARTZ. WITHROW works 

closely with the White House Visitors office. SCHWARTZ worked in 

the Social Office. WITHROW had a friendly relationship with 

SCHWARTZ, but did not socialize with her. WITHROW does not think 

he discussed LEWINSKY with SCHWARTZ. 

WITHROW has been to a bar named "The Bottom Line" once 

in the past ten years. WITHROW believes that occasion may have 

been after an event at the White House. WITHROW can only recall 

MELINDA BATES being there from the White House. WITHROW knows 

NICOLE MAFFEO by sight alone. 

have been at 

WITHROW believes MATT FRITSCH may 

"The Bottom Line" the last time WITHROW was there. 

WITHROW is positive he did not tell SCHWARTZ about a 

rumor that the President and MONICA LEWINSKY were caught in a 

compromising situation. 
4573 

OK-302a (Rev. 8-19-94) 

29-SIC-LR-35063 

Continuation of OK-u)2 of BRYANT OWEN WITHROW, JR. .On 04/23/98 ,Pagc 3 

SCHWARTZ left employ at the White House approximately 

two months ago. About two weeks ago, SCHWARTZ left a message for 

WITI-IROW but WITHROW did not return the call. SCHWARTZ has not 

called WITHROW any other time since she left employ at the White 

House. 

WITHROW recalls seeing LEWINSKY at a Christmas party 

this past December. WITHROW believes he saw LEWINSKY outside the 

visitor's entrance. WITHROW believes it was a Christmas party 

for the military. One of the Uniformed Division personnel may 

have mentioned to WITHROW that LEWINSKY was at the gate. 

SCHWARTZ may have been working that party, but WITHROW has no 

recollection of her being there. WITHROW does not recall saying 

anything to SCHWARTZ about LEWINSKY. 

WITHROW advised he had a "feeling" the White House 

wanted to keep LEWINSKY away from the President, because of her 

reputation as a "groupie." WITHROW has not heard of the term 

"clutch," in describing Presidential "groupies." 

The only USSS employee WITHROW spoke to about LEWINSKY 

was GARY BYRNE. WITHROW can not recall the topic of the 

conversation in anymore detail, other than it was about LEWINSKY. 

WITHROW and BYRNE worked together at one time. WITHROW has-no 

knowledge of LEWINSKY giving gifts to USSS personnel. WITHROW 

has no knowledge of lipstick-stained tissue being found in the 

Oval Office. 
4574