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UNITED SZATPS DISTII~ CCLRT 1 PROCEEDINGS 

FOR THE DISTRICT OF CO;“1BzA 2 Whereupon, 

x 3 DALE JOAN YOUNG 

4 was called as a witness and after having been duly sworn by 

:rt I*: 5 the Deputy Forcperxm of tbe Grand Jury, was examined and 

6 testified as follows: 

GRAND 3mY PiwczeoIwG+ 7 EXAMINATION 

8 BY MR. EMMICK: 

----------------x 9 Q Hello. 

Grand Jury Room NO. 3 10 A Hi. 

United scat., Di,UlSC COYzt 11 Q Ms. Young, I wonder if you could state your naxn 

for thr Dhtrlcr 01 COl~I. 12 for: thaw record and spell it. 

3rd ‘ Cc.n*tlZ”Cion, II.*. 13 A My name is Dale Joan Young, D-a-l-e J-o-a-n 

w~shlxtpron. D.C. 20001 14 Y-o-u-n-g. And I would prefer if you called me Dale, if it’s 

Tuesday, June 23, 1998 IS possible, please. 

The r.sciaeny Of DALE JOAN YOWG Ias t.k*” in tic 16 Q All right. We’ll do our best in that regard. 

prestncc of a full qumm of Grand Jvry 97-2, impanclcd on 17 A Thank you. 

18 Q WhatI’dliketodoinstartingoutistogiveyou 

ll*cHAEx. UDlTCR 19 certain advisements about rights and obligations that yo 

MARX ANNE “IRT” 20 have. 

Associarc 1n.iepn.i*nr counr*1 21 Let me start by saying this is a grand jury and, 

ottice Of Inacpcntieenr Counwal 22 as you lunk around you, you will see grand jurors. There’s a 

1001 Pennsyl”mia A”CII”C, Y0rthYe.t 23 woman here at the table who is speaking into a sort of a 

Suite 190 Worth 24 microphone. She’s the court repom, so she’s taking down 

Wa,hlnp+on, 0.0, 20004 25 all the things that we’re saying here. 

PI*. 2 Page4 

EOHIENTS 1 To my left is Mary Anne Wirth. You met her 

t earlier. My name is Mike Emmick. We’re conducting an 

“ITNESS: p.ge 3 investigation into suspected violations of federal criminal 

4 law. 

3al.z JQ.M Young 3 5 As all witnesses have before this grand jury, WC 

6 will give you certain advisements about your rights and 

aAN JURY EXHIBITS: 7 obligations. Ihe fm advisement is that you have a right 

8 under the Fifth Amendment to refuse to answer any question5 

Y1. DI-l Card fmlm Manica LeYlBDky 10 9 that may tend to incriminate you. Let me explain a littl 

10 more what that means. 

93. w-2 *nYlt.tion 10 11 If I or Mary Anne Wirth or one of the grand juror 

12 weretoaskyouaquestionandyouwerctothinktoyou&f, 

.a. ox-3 lrrris1t frcm Wa*hingron city Plp6.Z 11 J 3 “I know the answer to that but the answer shows that I have 

15. OY-3s. WCmenL to W.shlnrJton Post an* 14 ~ttedacrimeorlinksmetothecommisionofacrime,’ 

W.shingto” city *.per 19 15 you could say, “I refuse to answer on grounds of the Fifth 

so. w-4 Letter date* l/30/98 on Extra 16 Amendment.” 

l*fte*h.*d 12 17 A Okay. 

MO. w-5 copy Of trMsCrlpt irm Barbara 18 Q Do you understand that right? 

ll.1ttrs ShOY 13 19 A Yes. Thank you. 

LO. W-6 CQ"ZaCc* troll nadia 16 20 Q Okay. You also have a right to have counsel. 

.o. m-7 Fax COYer ,ne*t tc.r OY-4 20 21 Now, your attomey could not be here in the grand jury 

ma. m-8 ro1*ec Of ptlona CeCOldJ 22 22 room with you, but your attorney could be outside. Do 

x3. m-9 P0l.l.~ at pncmc rtCO* 22 23 you have an attorney? 

wo. OY-10 Polder ot phone ricordo 22 24 A Yes, I do. 

“0. vi-11 FOlICX Of pholle rcco* 22 25 Q who is that? 

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1 A His name is John Vemi. 

2 Q And is he outside the grand jury room? 

3 A Yes, hc is. 

4 Q Now, you understand that if you would like to speak 

5 with your attorney about something that occurs to you in the 

6 course of our questioning, all you have to do is raise your 

7 hand or something similar and say, “I wonder if I could speak 

8 to my attorney briefly,” and we’ll let you go outside. 

9 A Okay. Thank you. 

0 Q All right You also have in addition to those two 

I rights, you have an obligation and your obligation is to tell 

2 the truth. That obligation is imposed on you by virtue of 

3 the fact that you’ve been placed under oath. 

4 When you are under oath, if you were to lie, that 

5 is, if you were to say something that’s false that is 

6 material and that you know to be false when you say it, that 

7 might constitute perjury. Pajury is a federal felony that’s 

8 punishable by five years in prison. 

9 Do you understand that you have an obligation to 

10 tell the truth and that it relates to this crime of perjury? 

!I A Yes, I do. Yes. 

12 Q All right. Do you have any questions you might ask 

13 of us before we begin with our questioning of you? 

14 A No. l-hank you. 

!5 Q Allright. ThenIthinkthatmostofthe 

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1 questioning will be conducted by Ms. Wirth. If you have no 

2 questions, why don’t we proceed to that? 

3 A I do have a question. 

4 Q All right. 

5 A Surprise. If I have a question, if I’m not clear 

6 about what you specifically want me to answer, may I ask you 

7 to clarify it or may I ask questions? 

8 Q Absolutely. In fact, we suggest very strongly that 

9 you do that. We try to ask clear questions, but, as I’m sure 

0 the grand jurors will attest, sometimes they’re not as clear 

I as we’d like. 

2 A Okay. Thank you. 

3 Q And it’s much better for you to get clear on what 

4 we are asking about because if you were. to answer a question 

5 inawaythat’snotwhatwewan,thcnthercmaybcsomc 

6 COnfUSiOn. 

7 A Okay. Thank you. Thank you. 

8 BY MS. WIRTH: 

9 Q First off, you are present here today in response 

o to a subpoena. Is that correct? 

1 A Yes, 1 am. 

2 Q And that subpoena required you to bring certain 

3 documents with you. Is that correct? 

4 A Yes, it is. 

5 Q And have you brought with you all the documents 

In Re: GJ Proceedings Multi-Pacer” Tuesdav. June 23. 1998 

Page 7 1 I that you have in your possession that are responsive to that 

2 subpoena? 

3 A Yes. I did. 

4 Q And I have in front of me a stack of materials. 

5 I’m going to sbow ttrm to you one by one and ask you if the 

6 are items that you produced today in response to that 

7 subpoena. All right? 

8 I’m just going to ask you to identify them and tell 

9 the grand jury if these are things you brought with you. 

0 A I didn’t bring the other items ih response to the 

1 subpcena. I brought them because my lawyer suggested that 

2 I -- the only items you subpoenaed me to bring were the phone 

3 records. 

4 Q Okay. And these other things you brought on yow 

5 own. 

6 A I just wanted to clarify that. Yes. 

7 Q That’s fine. Okay. All right. The first item 

8 that I’m putting before you is a card, okay? A greeting 

9 card. And it appears to be one of Ann G&es’, G-e-d-de-s, 

0 right? 

,l A Yes. 

2 Q And I’m going to ask you to look at it and tell us 

3 whether this is something that you brow and, if it is, 

4 what is it. 

5 A h&micastayodovuatmyhousconLaborDaywozhd 

Pagee 

1 1997 from Sunday night - from Sunday afternoon until Monday 

2 morning and she sent me a card thanking me. 

3 Q Okay. And this is the card? 

4 A Yes, it is. 

5 Q Okay. And you’ve kept it since then? 

6 A I kept it, yes. 

I Q All right. The next thing is what appears to be 

8 a Xerox of an invitation with Marcia Lewis name on the 

9 top? 

0 A It was a computer printout of an invitation. 

1 The invitation was on fancy paper. I generated this from my 

2 computer. I had a book signing party for Marcia Lewis at my 

3 house shortly after The Private Lives of the Tree Tenors was 

4 published. 

5 Q And that was a benefit for what? 

6 A Itwasn’tabenefit. WbatitwaswasIranthe 

7 PartyforMarciaandshesaidtomethatshewouldLiketo 

8 donate some of the proceeds to my favorite charity and I have 

9 two favorite charities and she said we could split it. 

0 So tkre was $3.00 per book donated and $1.50 went 

1 to Habitat for Humanity of Westchester and the & one mnt 

2 to Bridges to Community, which is an organization that bl 

3 schools and other projects in Nicaragua 

4 Q Okay. And for the record, Westchester is a county I 

5 in New York State. 

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I A Yes. Yes, it is. 1 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. DY2 

2 Q And that’s where you live. 2 was marked for identification.) 

3 A k’eS. 3 MS. WIRTH: And now this latest thing, the 

4 Q Okay. Allright. And,infact,thatpartywas 4 Washington City Paper article, I’ve marked DY-3. 

5 held- 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

6 A Atmyhouse. 6 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. DY3 

1 Q At your house. 7 was marked for identification.) 

a A YeS. a BY Ms. WlRTH: 

9 Q Now, you’ve ako brought with you this printout 9 Q Okay. All right. This next item is a printout of 

0 from Washington City Paper? IO a letter on Extra letterhead. Can you tell the grand jury 

1 A Yes, Idid. 1 J what that is? You brought this with you, too? 

2 Q And can you tell the grand jury what this is and 12 A Yes. What had happened was after the story brok 

3 how it came about? 13 in mid to late January, I guess around January 20th or so, 

4 A Yes. The name of the article is “I Dated Monica 14 I started getting a lot of calls from the press and what I 

5 Lewinsky..” It was by Jake Tapper. And the end of February, 15 imagine is that they probably bought Monica and Marcia’s 

6 IspokemtbephoaetoMonicaandIhadtoldhamyconccrn 16 phonerecordsandtbey-Iwasaskedrepeatedlymm& 

7 about bow sbe was treated by the media and I asked her if abe 17 comments about both Marcia and/or Monica. 

8 felt that any reporters or any press tmated her fairly and 18 And I was very - I was very, very upset about thy 

9 abetnldme-Iwrotedowntbenameoftbearticleandthe 19 way Monica was portrayed and I really would have liked to 

10 paper and I looked it up on the Internet. 20 have said something, but I just’didn’t trust the media. 

11 Washin& City Paper, she told me the date and -- 21 I felt that there was enough wonderful material 

2 actllauy, I don’t rememberifshetoldmetbedate,&etold 22 about Monica to say good things without having to dredge up 

3 me the writer. Anyway, I found it on the Internet and I 23 every person in her past and what happened is that u&en Extr 

4 printed it out after we were done speaking. 24 asked me if I would speak and I said to them that I would 

5 She told me that she wasn’t -- it wasn’t 25 consider speaking provided that I had editorial rights and by 

Page 10 Page li 

J necessarily a flattering portrayal, but she felt that it was 1 that what I meant was that I could look at what was said and 

2 a very accurate portrayal of who she was. 2 be able not to have any-thing aired that I felt wasn’t 

3 Q Okay. And that was a telephone conversation you 3 flattering or accurate. 

4 had with her. 4 I was very concerned that no matter how somebody 

5 A YeS. 5 speaks about somebody, if you want to distort it, it could be 

6 Q And do you remember approximately when that 6 distorted, and so I just didn’t have any trust. 

7 conversation took place? 1 So, anyway, the woman -- what’s her name. -- Vatana 

8 A Yes. 8 said that she would taIk to her producer about my cencems. 

9 Q wkr~ was that? 9 The producer -- and, at that time, she didn’t even - I 

0 A ThatwaS-- it was either February - well, here. 10 didn’t give her my name, that’s why there was no dear or 

1 I can tell from my computer printout. Thank you. February J J anything or maybe she had it, I don’t even remember it 

2 2&h, on or - it was either February 28th or 27th. 12 because she bad both of my phone- records, both of my phone 

3 MS. WJRTJ-I: Okay. And just for the record, the 13 numbersandmyMmeisonmymachineononenlrmba. 

4 first item, the card that you mentioned, I’ve marked as 14 Anyway, so when she - when I got the letter back 

5 Grand Jury Exhibit DY, for your initials, 1. 15 saying they wouldn’t allow me to edit it, you know, I told 

6 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. DY-1 16 thfm that I wouldn’t talk. 

7 was marked for identification.) 17 MS. WIR‘JX: Okay. And, for the record, this is a 

8 THE WITNESS: Yes. And one thing that I did ask 18 letter dated January 30, 1998. I’ve marked it with Grand 

9 you is that when the proceeding is over that you nXurn the 19 Jury Exhibit DY-~. 

0 cardtome. 20 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. DY-4 

1 MS. WIRTH: And I told you we would. 21 was marked for identification.) 

2 ITiE WITNESS: Thank you- 22 BY Ms. WlRTH: 

3 MS. WJJCTH: And the second item, the invitation, 23 Q he those two things correct? 

4 I’ve marked with your initials DY-2, Grand Jury Exhibit. 24 A Yes. 

5 THEWlTNESS: Yes. 25 Q Okay. And it’s signed or appears to be signed by 

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1 someone named Steve Lang and there’s no addressee, which i 

2 what you just pointed out. 

3 A No. Right. Yes. 

4 MS. WIRTH: Okay. Okay. All right. Now I’m 

5 putting in front of you DY-5. Grand Jury Exhibit 

6 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. DY-5 

7 was marked for identification.) 

8 BY MS. WIRTH: 

9 Q Can you tell the grand jury, is that something you 

IO brought as well? 

I1 A YeS. 

12 Q And what is this? 

13 A Okay. What had happened was - I was getting a lot 

14 of calls. The New York Post, Debra Oren had called me and 

15 theywanted--theygavemetheri&ttewriteapieceabout 

I6 MonicaonmyownandIscill-Imran,Iwasvcryconccrncd 

17 IHliinted-ifIweregoingtodoanythin&Iwasn’tgoingto 

I8 do anything without getting permission from Monica’s 

19 attorney, froni Bill Ginsburg. 

20 -And, indeed, when the story broke, I had called 

21 Ginsburg’s office and left messages with him on the xnachig 

22 voice mail, I think Iris secretary’s name, if I’m not 

!3 mistaken, was Rene. I don’t know. Anyway, I left messqes 

!4 sayingifthere’sanythingIcandotohelp,pleasecallme 

!s and I never got a call. 

Page 14 

I Well, what happened is that Ginsburg went on the 

2 Barbara Walters show and asked for her friends to come 

3 forward. 

4 Q Is this a copy of a transcript from that? 

5 A This is a copy I got before it aired on the Barbara 

6 Walters show wbcre Ginsburg said you know, iu&ne what ir 

7 was like for Monica to be sitting home day after day and to 

8 have people say horrible things about her and he said where 

9 are her friends, why aren’t they coming forward. 

0 And at that point, you know, I mean, you know, I 

,I wassittingttaeresaying”Doesn’ttheguy~owthatifyou’re 

.2 a friend, she’s probably told the story?” I mean, I was 

3 very, very uncomfortable because I felt that I - I am IXI 

4 friend and I realIy did want to say some&g and I didn’t 

S know -- I’m not an attorney, I didn’t know what would hurt 

6 her or what wouldn’t, so when I got this, I - 

7 DebraOrenfaxedittomeandthensornebodyfrom8 Ican’t rananbu, ABC or NBC calkd mc up and said, “Ginsburg 

9 said that be wants people to come forward. Now will you cam 

:O forward?” And I said, “I need to speak to Ginsburg first.” 

:I I said, “I can’t do it.” 

:2 So they gave me his beeper number. It was - I 

.3 remembzthebeepernumberbecauseitwas--thelastfour 

4 digits were Marcia’s number, mI) or - anyway,mm 

.5 something or other. 

3 

S 

1 

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1 And I beeped him and he called me back And he 

2 asked me if I was willing to go on CNN and say anything 

3 positive about Monica and I said that -- I said, “I wou 

4 love to, but --‘I and he said, “That’s not an answer.” I 

5 said “Well, you’ve got to listen to me. You lorow. you can’t 

6 just cut me off.” 

7 And I said, “I would love to, but you have to know 

8 that I know the story up until Labor Day.” So he said to me, 

9 “If you know the story, I can’t talk to you.” And he tries 

o torushme- and I said, “Just please teIl Monica that I 

1 love her.” So he said, “Fine.” 

2 And I get off the phone and I don’t remember 

3 whetheritwasNBCor.4nC,Ican’t remember who it was, 

4 called me back and said, “Can you come on?” And 1 said, 

5 “I didn’t get Ginsbnrg’s permission.” And then we hang up. 

6 HecallsthemandsaysthatI’mmediashy. Idon’thavea 

7 shy bone in my body. 

8 So i felt reaUy uncomfortable and, you know -- I 

P don’t know. I mean -- so that’s what this is. 

0 Q Okay. And who is Debra Omn? 

1 A Deb~QrenwasareporterfrcnnttreNewYorkPost 

2 whosaidtome--shesaidthatIcouldwritemyownpieee 

3 for the Post and I said, “Can I edit it? Can I make sure 

4 that exactly what I -‘I You know, I just didn’t-have the 

s confidence - 

Page I\. 

1 Q Okay. Your conversation with Mr. Ginsburg took 

2 place approximately when? 

3 A You can check my phone records because you have 

4 them. Itwas-- 

5 Q Well, the date on this fax is January 30, 1998. 

6 Is that correct? 

7 A It was close to that. 

8 Q Is that correct? 

9 A Yes. That’s the date on the fax. I would say it 

3 wasbeforeFebruq1Oth,sometimebetweenthe3Othandth 

1 10th. 

2 Q Of February 19981 

3 A YeS. 

4 MS.WIRTJT Okay. Allright. 

5 THE WITNESS: That was No. 5? 

5 Ms. WIEUH: That was DY-S and now Grand Jury 

7 Exhibit DY-6. 

3 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. DY-6 

3 was marked for identification.) 

I BY Ms. WTRlH: 

I Q Anotherd ocumealt you produced, right? 

2 A Yes. 

1 Q Okay. And what is this one? 

4 A Allright Thesearesomeofthepeoplewbohad 

5 contacted me from the media I kept their names. 

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n Kc: GJ Proceedings Multi-Page Tuesday, lune 23, 1998 

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1 Q Okay. And when did they contact you? 

2 A Around -- you know, late to mid January. John 

3 Huddy from Paramount k's from Hard Copy. And he had left a 

4 ~sagcthattheFc~tbtsomemoncyformandtheywanted 

5 a positive spin and blah, blah, blah. And I called him back 

6 and I told him that anybody who takes money isn’t a friend a 

1 Monica’s. 

8 And I actually - you know, I really was interes@x 

9 in getting informaticm from the press, I was - you know, and 

o IactuallygotJo~Huddytotallrtomeandhetoldme 

,I stories,Icoulda’tbdievcwhathetotdme,b~tbeldma 

.2 lot of stories. 

3 Q But in any event, did you give him an interview? 

4 A No. I didn’t give anybody an interview until 

SJlllXlst. 

6 Q Okay. And we’ll taIk about that a little later. 

7 A Yes. 

a Q Thisoamekre9 A Laura Brown&n is either - she’s a reporter. 

D She.wasfromtllepres&Idon’t mmemberwbatshedidiatbe 

11 press. She was a former intern. 

2 Q At the White House? 

i3 A Yes. 

14 Q Okay. 

5 A And~toldmeshe--you~ow,sheaskedmeifI 

Page 18 

I wouldspcaktoherandIkepthername. AndthenTamara 

2 Lipper, I think her name is. Yes. Tamara Lipper or 

3 something--Ican’treadthat,butthisisacopy-- 

4 Q And that says ABC. It is a copy. 

5 A From ABC called And, you know - 

6 Q Okay. To any of the three names on this page did 

7 you ever give an interview? 

8 A No. EveqthingIspoketothemwasofftherecord, 

9 background, no direct attribution. I basically told them 

o what -- there’s something here that - in addition, on 

1 Qcumcntnumber3,thatshouldbcadocumcnt3Abacauscwhar 

2 happens is that I e-mailed - after I read the article that 

3 Monica felt was accurate, I entailed that nevqaper a very 

4 brief statement about how I felt about Monica bad on the 

5 information that was public, not on anything that I knew. 

6 Q Okay. And that was a document you sent to the 

3 Washington Post. 

8 A I sent it to the Washington Post and I also sent it 

9 to the Washington paper. 

0 Q The Washington City Paper? 

1 A I’m sorry. The Washington -- 

2 Q That’s okay. That’s the paper that published the 

3 article that Monica told you about. 

4 A Yes. Yes. 

5 Q And what were you trying to say in this letter? 

7 

f 

1 

2 

t 

Page 1 

1 A &II I read it? Do you want me to -- 

2 Q You can read it. 

3 A Okay. And this is what I essentially said to the 

4 pl-css5 .MS. PIIRTH: And by the way, I’ve marked it DY-3~. 

6 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. DY-3A 

7 was marked for identification.) 

8 MS. WRTH: Go ahead. 

9 THEwlTNEss: Thank you. All light. 

0 I wrote, “Monica Lewinsky is a young woman who WT 

1 bctqrdbyawoman skthougbttobcherfkzd Ttemasmt 

2 ofbenayalcameinthemidstofan~J.sting. Feeling 

3 completely helpless and as if her life was over,” and ti 

4 wasaquotethatwasinthepapers,“shedecliaaltoaccept 

5 her offer of immtmity fmm prosecution if she offered her 

6 complete caqxration with Starr. She declined that offer in 

7 order to protect the President Rather than scouring the 

8 depths of -Monica’s past to determine her character,” 1% 

9 sorry0 m witness begins to cry.) 

1 MR EMMICK: Do you want to take two minutes? 

2 THE WllNESS: Can you read it for me? 

3 MS. WIRTH: Sure. For the record, I’ll read it and 

4 you can watch me. Where did you stop oft? 

5 m witness indicated on the document.) 

Page 2( 

1 MS. LVllCm “Rather than scouring the depths of 

2 Monica’s past to determine her character, I believe the above 

3 story speaks volumes about the lady. At what must have b&I 

4 one of her lowest moments, she refused to hetray another for 

5 herowIlbenefit. WhereaIetheheadIinesstatingooeofthe 

6 fewdeductionsthatcanbedrawnfromthelimitedfactsia 

7 this circus? I for one would rather be friends with 

8 Ms. Imvimky than with anyone in this mass. She alone puts 

9 others’ interests above her own.” 

0 BY Ms. WIRTH: 

1 Q Is that an accurate reading of tlxz document which 

2 iS DY-3A? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q And that’s something that you sent to the 

5 Washington Post and also to Washington City Paper? 

6 A Yes. I’m sorry. 

7 Ms.WlRTHz All right. Thanks. All right. 

8 And the last piece of paper in this batch, DY-7, is 

9 a fax cover sheet. 

D (Grand Jury Exhibit No. DY-7 

1 was marked for identification.) 

2 BY MS. WIRTH: 

3 Q Doestbatgowithanotherdoctxneat? Thatgoeswlth 

4 DY-4. It’s the fax cover sheet for DY-4, is that right? 

5 A h-h-hmm. 

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2 

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(Grand Jury Exhibits No. DY-9, 

DY9. DY-10 and DY-I 1 were marked 

Page 2 

1 Q Yes? 

2 A Mm-hmm. Yes. I’m Sot-i-y. 

3 MS. WIRTH: Okay. All right. And then lastly -- 

4 (The witness continues crying.) 

5 THE WTNESS: Im ’ sorry. 

6 MS. WIRTH: That’s all right. Take your time. 

7 7-m wnmss: I’m sorry. 

8 Ms. WIRTH: You’ve brought with you several 

9 folders -- 

0 THE WITNESS: I’m sorry. 

I MS. WIRTH: Okay. That’s all right. 

2 BY MS. WLRTI-F 

3 Q You’ve brought with you several -- 

4 A Phone records. 

5 Q -- manilla folders of phone records, right? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Yes? And these are in response to the subpoena, 

8 rigllt? 

9 A Yes. - 

10 Q Okay. And these are phone records that you had in 

!I your home? 

:2 A Yes. 

:3 Q Okay. And they relate to your telephone numbers? 

:4 A Yes. 

.5 Q Okay. And for the record, can you just tell 

Page 2; 

1 us what the two numbers are that these phone records relate 

2 to? 

3 A My home number. 

4 Q And tell us what that is. 

5 A Its-. ’

6 Q Areacod7 A Yes. And that’s listed by my daughter’s middle 

8 name, it’s Heidi Kaye. 

9 Q Kaye is spelled K-a-y-e? 

0 A K-a-y-e. Yes. So that I can tell when I’m getting 

I a solicitation. And my other phone number is--- area 

2 de -and that’s listed as my corporal name, 

3 which is Property Tax Savers, Inc. 

4 Q And while we’re on the subject, what do you do for 

5 a living? 

6 A When businesses or individuals pay 

7 disproportionately high real estate taxes, they hire me to 

8 make them equitable. 

9 Q And are you a lawyer? 

0 A No. I practice the one area of law in New York 

1 State that you can practice without being an attorney. 

2 MS. WRTHZ And what I’ve done now is marked 

3 these four folders that you turned over to us, each of 

4 which contain numerous pbonc records with the following tabs: 

5 Grand Jury Exhibit DY-8, DY9, DY-IO and DY-I 1. 

3 for identification.) 

4 BY Ms. WIRTH: 

5 Q Is that right? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q And these arc the four folders you’ve produced 

8 today. 

9 A Yes. 

.O Q All right. I’m just going to ask you some general 

.I questions about yourself. You told us that you live in 

2 New York State, right? 

3 A Yes. WestchestercOuxNy. 

4 Q Okay. And how old are you? 

5 A Forty-seven. 

6 Q Okay. And areyoumarried? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q And do you have children? 

9 A I have three girls. 

'0 Q And can you tell us where you were born? 

1 A In New York City. 

2 Q And can you tell us whetbez you know Marcia Lewis? 

3 A Yes, I do. 

4 Q How did you meet her? 

5 A I met her at a health spa in Hunter Mountain, Np-mPage L-l 

I York. 

2 Q And where is Hunter Mountain? 

3 A It’s about 45 minutes away from Woodstock. It’s 

4 near Ski Windom, TamtersviIle. 

5 Q Okay. And when w you tke wbn you met Marcia? -. 

6 A h the summer Of '95. 

7 Q And what were you doing there? 

8 A I was trying to lose weight. 

9 Q Okay. And you were there for what period of time? 

0 About how long? 

1 A Usually for a whole summer, ahost. I would go - 

2 IthinksixoreiglttweeksandthenIwouldgohomeforonc 

3 or two days a week and my husband would come up for the 

4 weekends. My childten were in camp. 

5 Q Okay. And Marcia Lewis was also there at the 

6 health spa? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q Do you remember what month you met her in that 

9 summer? 

D A It was either late July or - I would guess July, 

1 Q How did you meet her? 

2 A III the dining room. She sat with some of my 

3 friends. 

4 Q Okay. And can you describe for the gmnd juy what 

5 your relationship with her was on that trip? 

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1 A We became friends. She is an incredibly warm and 1 And then she had said to me that I was the woma 

2 wonderful person and she loves children. My children were 2 wbo her mother really loved and that we had become friends. 

3 there for a while, two of my chiIdren. She played cards with 3 I mean, she just -- she engaged me. I - you know, I didn’t 

4 oncoftkmandwcwo~dwaIksomchcs. I spard most of my 4 go up -- I have - I know this going to sound obnoxious, but 

5 timealone,IliketohikeandIjustwaIk. Wejustbtxame 5 I have a lot of friends and I don’t feel I’m a good enough 

6 friends and she told xx about a book that she was writing. 6 friendtothefriendsIha~,soIdon’twanttobemakin 

7 She’s just -- 7 more friends, I try to stay by myself in every - and I 

8 Q Was that the book that you ultimately gave the 8 always make friends. But I don’t -- 

9 party for? 9 Q Okay. Do you remember anything that Monica told 

0 A Yes. IO you about herself on that trip? Her work or schooling, her 

1 Q How long was Marcia Lewis at the spa ? Less than 11 background or anything like that? 

2 you or about the same as you? 12 -‘A Yes. Yes. 

3 A Nobody was there as long as me. No. I don’t 13 Q What did she tell you? 

4 remember how long she was there. 14 A Well, we took a walk Every day, I would take five 

5 Q Okay. 15 aadahalfmilewallcsandsevenandahalfmilewalksand1 

6 A But we definitely clicked. 16 usually walked eleven or twelve miles every day and so -- I 

7 Q Okay. Andaftersheleftthespa,didtherecomea 17 mean,wewalkedalot. Iremcmberthef~timetbatwe 

8 timethat stmmex when you met Monica Lewinsky? 18 walke&she told me about - a little bit about Lewis & Clark, 

9 A Yes. - 19 

o Q Andhowdidthatcome about? 20 

1 A I was sitting by myself reading and she came over 21 

2 and she paid me a complement. Monica -- 22 m 

3 Q This was at the Spa? 23 

4 A Yes. 24 

5 Q The same spa? 25 

Page 26 

1 A Yes. Monica -- I mean, she -- she might make mc 1 

2 look shy in terms of how effusive she is. She’s just - 2 

3 she’s bubbly. I mean, Monica is just a bubbly, friendly, 

u 

3 a _ 

4 warm -- anybody who would meet Monica would love her and 4 

5 she’s just wonderful. 5- 

6 Q So tell us about your first conversation with her. 

. 

6 

7 A She came over and started talking to me and she 7 

8 askedmeifshewasbotheringmebecauseIwasreadingby 

9 myself and she - you know, when sbc knew what my name was. 9 

0 sherealizedtbatIwasapersonwhohermotberhadbecomc 10 

1 friends with and she said to me that she was Marcia’s I I 

2 daughter. 

3 And I didn’t -- it was just very bizarre to me 

4 because Marcia is very close to my age and the idea of 14 Q Did she mention anything about going to work at the 

5 having Monica as a daughter was - it made me feel very 15 White House? 

6 old. And I’m very immature, so 1 don’t think of myself as 16 A She must have but I’ve blurred some of the 

7 very old. And, you know, the idea that I could have at 17 conversations. I mean, it’s inconceivable to me that she 

8 that time like a 21 or 22-year-old daughter was very 18 didn’ttiecauseofcertainthingsI remember, but I don’t 

9 disconcerting. But I didn’t -- I mean, I guess I could have, 19 ranember-like1 remember the -- you know, a talk about the 

‘0 but I didn’t. 20 shutdown in the White House and how she was working there, 

1 But, anyway, so I looked at Marcia and I 21 but I don’t remember when the conversation took place. 

2 couldn’t--Ijustdidn’tconnect,eventho~shetoldme, 22 Q But this was the summer of ‘95. 

3 I looked at Monica and I couldn’t believe that she was 23 A Yes. 

4 Marcia’s daughter. And she said, “Will you please look at my 24 Q That this conversation took place. 

:5 face and you’ll see who I -‘I andthenitoccunedtome. 25 A Yes. 

- -- 

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Q All right And you were aware at that time that 

- her mother lived in Washington. Is that correct? 

3 A Yes. 

A Q Okay. Now, after that meeting with ,Monica at t.h 

i spa, did you maintain contact with her and/or her mothe 

6 after you left the spa? 

7 A Yes, both. Both. 

8 Q And what form did that contact take? 

9 A Telephone conversations, largely. Most of my phone 

o conversations were with Marcia. I don’t believe I callec 

1 Monica more than a dozen times in three years. Monica and 1 

z have a very warm, closeness when we’re togetk, but it was 

3 not a phone type of conversation. 

4 Marcia and I became very, very close and we would 

5 talk to each other, I would say, at least twice a week, bu 

6 not always, but in general. In general, we would. , 

I And Marcia - I’d say she called me or I called 

8 ha-ifIcouldaskyouforafavorinthis,ifIsayshe 

9 called me, I’m saying she called me or I called her 

0 interchangeably. I don’t want to be pressed for perjury for 

1 saying she called me baxusc I can’t mbu who called who. 

zso3 Q Just the best of your memory. Whatever you can 

4 remember. 

5 A I know, but I don’t want to screw up. This is 

Page 30 

1 scarystuff. Imean,youcouldpresschargesagainstmeifI 

2 make a mistake. 

3 Q Just let me advise you, just testify to the best of 

4 your memory. 

5 AFtight.. 

6 Q If there’s something that you don’t remember -- 

7 A I know, but I don’t want to make a mistake, is what 

3 I’m telling you 

3 Q Well, do the best you can with what you can 

1 remember. 

I A Okay. All right. 

2 MR. EMMICK; Let me just also offer, we don’t want 

3 you to make a mistake but also we don’t want you to be so 

4 nerve racked by the prospect of our prosecuting you. Keep in 

5 mind that when we gave you the admonitions at the beginning 

5 it had to be a material fact., it had to be knowingly false, 

7 andsowhatthatmeansisthat3 THE WIlXlSS: I’m not intending to ckceive you. 

3 MR. EMMICKZ Right. And so if you’re not intending 

1 to deceive, if you don’t know that it’s false at the time you 

I say i5 then there couldn’t be any perjury prosecution 

2 anyway. 

3 TIE WITNESS: Okay. 

I MR. EMMICK: !k as long as you’re trying your best, 

j you don’t have anything to worry about. 

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1 THE WITNESS: Okay. So if I say we spoke on the - 

2 phone, that would make it easier. That way we don’t habe to 

3 worry about who called who. 

4 SoMarciaandIspokeandshehadtoldmethat~ 

5 wassoglad-youknow,shetoldmeintbewaythatboPb 

6 women are, I mean, they’re both very effusive, and she told 

7 me that Monica loved me and that she really felt very close 

8 to me and that I was -- you know, that they both really 

9 wanted to maintain contact. 

10 And the next time I saw then-i, I actually saw them 

I1 togetberfortbefimtime,theycametoNewYorkand~: 

12 brunch in the city. 

13 BY Ms. WIRTH: 

14 Q when was that? 

I5 A That was in the fall of ‘95. And they wanted - 

16 you know, I mean, largely what we spoke about is gettiq me 

17 tocommittocomingtoWashingtontoseethemthere,whi~I 

18 did Iwentdownto--1stayedinGeorgetownMartin~ 

19 King weekend of 1996. *: 

!O Q Okay. And that would be January of 1996? * 

!l A Yes. 

!2 Q And at that time, in January of 1996, did you see 

!3 Monica as well? 

!4 A Bothof them. 

!5 Q Okay. And at that time, did you have discus& -- 

Page >L 

1 with Monica about her job at the White House? 

2 A I know I congratulated her. 

3 Q &I what? 

4 A About her job at the White House. 

5 Q Okay. What job was that? 

6 A She was appointed to the Office of..Legislative 

7 Affairs. 

8 Q Okay. And she told you that? 

9 A Idon’t remember whether she told me or Marcia told 

o me or both of them told me. I don’t remember. 

1 Q Okay. Do you mber at that time whether you bad 

2 any discussions with Monica, this is in January of 1996, 

3 about the President? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q What happened? 

6 A WelI,wehad--oh,IImewit,Imean,Icouldn’t 

7 get away with this one. I’m sorry. I know that Monica 

8 thought be was very attractive and Monica is gorgeous and I 

9 IcnowtbatsbercaUyadmiredtbeResidentandIaIwayssaw 

0 himasawomanim audIwasvayscaraiabouthimhaviagany 

I proximity to somebody who was attracted to him. 

2 So the first words out of my mouth when I saw her, I 

3 wbenIsawherwithhermotberfordinneronMartin~ 

4 King~m~andIwaswithmytwoyoungadaugbtasatthc 

5 time, was “Congtatulations on your new job, is the Resident 

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I goodintnzd?” Asajoke. Imean,I-andIdidn’thaveany I Q Not her mother? 

2 idea - oh, God. I’m really sorry. 2 A No. 

3 ThisishowItallc,Imean,thisiswfiatI’mlike, 3 Q And was it a chance encounter that you met Mcnica? 

4 so I just want to apologize. I don’t mean to offend anybody, 4 A Yes. 

5 butthisishowItaIk. 5 Q So you had no p rearranged plans to meet there? 

6 And she laughed and she said, “I don’t know, but I 6 A. No. No. Actually, wait a minute. There was a 

7 wishIcouldt.cllyou.” AndI-youknow,I’mvcrymaternal 7 cbanoeencounterthatImetber,butIcouldn’tswearrotbe 

8 andIsaidtober,“Bevery,verycarefulbecauseifyouwant 8 fact that I didn’t know she was there. I mean, I wasn’t 

9 to tell me the next time I ask you, you might be able to.” 9 going there because I planned to meet her, but I might have 

IO I said, “But understand that he would do you, your 10 Lard that she was going there. I can’t remember that. 

11 motha,yourgraadmotberandmyoldsrdaughter,too,sojust 11 Q Okay. And that was in May of ‘96? 

I2 becarefid.” sotbat’s-so--oh$Lord. -Illispaysmeoff 12 A Yes. And then I went back -- 

:3 for every dirty joke I‘ve ever told in my whole life. 13 Q Was it Memorial Day weekend? 

14 Anyway, you know, she spoke about - I’m sure she 14 A Ibelievetheweekendthatwewentonourwalkwas 

:5 spokeaboutkrjobsomeandwespokeabout-alittlebit 15 ~~alDayweeltcndandifI’mnotmistakenthataasthe 

.6 about politics. I mean, you know, I told you about a quote 16 weekend before Memorial Day. 

,7 thatwetriedtoresearch,wewentintoabookstoreafter 17 Q AU right. So you first saw her the weekend befon 

:a dimxr. I 8 Memorial Day. 

:9 We went for dinner twice, two different Italian 19 A Yes. I believe. 

!O restaurants in Georgetown. And I spent the day with Marcia. 20 Q AlI right. And when you saw her the weekend before 

!l We went t&the Air & Space part of the Smithsonian. 21 Memorial Day, did you talk to her? 

!2 Q And during this trip, did you meet Monica’s 22 A Just gave her a hug and kiss and told her - you 

13 brother, Michael? 23 know,Iaskedherwhenshewasgoingtobeback. ItoU-her 

!4 A Yes, I did. 24 Iwascomingbackthenextweekend,shesaidshewoald 

!5 Q And did you meet her aunt, Debra? 25 Q Okay. And in fact you took a walk on Memorial Day 

Page 34 Page 36 

1 A Yes, I did. 1 weekend. 

2 . Q And Debra’s son? 2 A YCS. 

3 A Alec or Alex? Yes. 3 Q With Monica 

4 Q Okay. All right. After this visit, did you 4 A A couple probably. They blur. 

5 continue to maintain contact with Marcia and Monica? 5 Q Anddidyoutalktoherduringthosewalks? -. ,- 

6 A Yes, I did. 6 A Yes. 

7 Q And that was again primarily on the phone. 7 Q And what do you remember ahout those conversations? 

8 A Yes. It was only on the phone until May of ‘96. 8 A Oh, God. Okay. You know, we’re talking and 

9 Q Okay. And in May of ‘96, did you have another 9 she’s-you~ow,we’rejusttallcinggirltall<andsbe’s0 personal meeting with either of them? 10 she - I can’t remember how many different tims - I 

1 A Yes, I did. 11 mean, she felt that Clinton was basically misun&stood 

2 Q Which one? 12 and that if I had met him that we’d be friends and that 

3 A Monica. 13 I’d really like him and she was telling me how -- you brow, 

4 Q And where did that take place? 14 that he really has very, very deep feelings for peqk in 

5 A In Hunter Mountain. Twice. I saw her on a weekend 15 genual and really wants to do good. And I basically didn’t 

6 whereIwasjustupatthespa,thespahadchangedhands 16 buy it. 

7 and- 17 And,anyway,IremindcdherofwhatIaskedkrin 

8 Q This is the same spa that you’d been at the 18 February. I said to her, “Can you answer tbe question rnfl 

9 previous summer, but a new owner? 19 You know, about is the Resident good in bed. And sk just 

10 A Well, it changed hands so it’s the same physical 20 stopptdwalkingandshesaidtome,“Ihavetotall<toyou. 

!I location. 21 I just have to tell you something.” 

!2 Q The same physical location. 22 Andshesaidtome,“Iwantyoutopromisemetfiat 

!3 A It was a different spa, essentiaHy. 23 you’re not going to tell anyone.” And I said, “Don’t tell me 

!4 Q Okay. Andshewasthere? Monicawasthere? 24 anything you don’t want my husband to know bccau,sc I tell my 

!5 A Yes. 25 husband everything.” 

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t 

Page 3: 

I And she said, “1 don’t want you to tell anyone.” 

2 she said, “I don’t want you to dkcuss this with my mother, 

3 my mother knows I’m involved with the President.” And s?~ 

4 started to teIl me the relationship that she had with 

5 President Clinton. 

6 And I want to go on record as saying that I never 

7 told anyoue until after the story broke and the only reason 

8 I’m talking publicly is because I have to. You know. 

9 But anyway, so she told me -- you know -- and she 

0 said, “To answer your question, I don‘t know if he’s gocd in 

1 bed.” And I said, “What do you mean? You’re involved witl 

2 him.” 

3 And so she said to me, “Well, we had oral sex.” 

4 And I said, “Is be good?” And she said lx. never did her 

5 And I said, “Then how did you have oral sex?” Aye, aye, aye 

6 So she said, “Well, we didn’t really have oral 

7 sex.” And I said, “Well, how do you not have really - how 

8 do you have it but not really have it?’ Aye. 

9 And what she said to me was that -- well, because 

0 I couldn’t understand it. You’re going to be involved with a 

1 married man and, you know, you have very deep feelings - I 

2 mean, I didn’t unckrstand why sh: wasn’t having sex with him 

3 and she said to me that - mind you, I think it’s wrong tr 

4 have sex with a married man, but if you am, just -- things 

5 just weren’t making sense to me. 

Page 38 

1 And I said to her, I said to her, “Why?” You 

2 know -- and she said to me that tbe President doesn’t trust 

3 anyone. She said that people have come forward, people 

4 who - women who hc had bczn involved with hvc come forwani. 

5 they’ve gone to the press, they’ve gone to their attorneys 

6 and that by -- and be wouldn’t even come. 

7 That’s where it was -- they didn’t really have oral 

B sex. She said that he felt that if he didn’t come that it 

9 wasn’t really oral sex. 

0 So I said, “So you really didn’t have oral sex?’ 

I She said, “No.” I said, “This is unbelievable.” It was a 

2 very bkrre conversation. 

3 Q Just so that the reporter - what you’re saying, 

4 basically you’re saying that - 

5 A I’m sorry, to the grand jury. 

6 Q Basically what you’re saying is that Monica 

7 performed oral sex on the President, but be did not 

8 ejaculate. Is that correct? 

9 A That’s -- yes. 

0 Q Did Monica tell you wbetber Vrc President ever 

I performed oral sex on her? 

2 A No. She said that ha didn’t. See, I cuuldn’t - I 

3 guess I couldn’t understand what was in it for her. I 

4 just -- it was -- 

5 Q Did you believe her? 

7 

1 

11 

1 

1 

-. 1 

‘. 1 

1 

1 

I 

1 

2 

2 

2 

>2 

2 

2 

, 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

1 

2 

2 

2 

2 

2 

2 

Page 39 

1 A Yes, I believed her because -- I believed her 

2 because I wouid think that if you’re going -- fint of all. 

3 she knows I don’t like Clinton, that’s number one. 

4 Second of all, if you’re involved in a relationship 

5 like this and you were trying to exaggerate, if you were 

6 trying tc-impnss somebody or show that you wac important to 

7 somebody, you’d exsggaatc rarba thaa minimize what you wat 

8 doing and I felt that, you know - I actually - I told my 

9 husband, you know, and be didn’t believe it at first. He 

0 didn’t believe it. 

I He said, “Why would you believe this?” You know, 

2 be said -- on I have privilege and not say what my hushand 

3 said? Am I allowed to not say what my husband said? 

4 MR. EMMICK: Yes. 

5 hfs.wlRTH: Yes. 

6 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you 

7 MR. EMMICK: Yes. llrze’s a privilege &led dw: 

8 marital tximmmicatinns privilege and so you can assert that 

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you Okay. 

0 BY Ms. WlRTB 

1 Q Okay. Basically, though, you were explaining to us 

2 why the story that Monica told you was something that you 

3 believed. 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q And can you elaborate on that a little bit more? 

Page 4v 

1 A Yes. Well, I basically - you know, I mean, I see 

2 the President as a womanizer. I don‘t like him, I don’t 

3 trust him, I have very, very strong feelings about how people 

4 in positions of power should t&we. And I just - I don’t _ 

5 feelthatbemettbecriteria 

6 Andso-youknow,Imean,andsheknewhowIfelt 

7 about him and I feel that if you’re going to lie, if she was 

8 goingtolietome,shewouldhan:saidtome,*Oh,h:calls 

9 meallthetime. Hedoeswoodafulthings. Hecan’twaitto 

0 see me.” Y 

1 ou know, I mean, she would have - I would &gine 

2 that she would have embellished the story. You krmw, she 

3 wouldn’t bc telling me “He told me he’d call me, I waited 

4 home ail weekend and I didn’t do anything and he didn’t ~4 

5 and then be didn’t call for two weeks.” 

6 In other words, you know, like she was not happy 

7 about the situation and so it wouldn’t have mada any w to 

8 ~at~for~~~ve~~~~dgo~~. So9 youknow-besides,Imcau,whatwouldbethepointinlyiq 

o tosomebody? ~~~d~~e~~? 

1 Imczin,whyhave.aconvccsationwithsumcbc@in 

2 which you’re lying? I PIQ~, it just - it wouldn’t have III~ 

3 any!3ensetome?. 

4 Q Okay. And during that conversation, did she 

5 express dissatisfaction like you just mentioned ahout waitirrg 

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1 home all weekend for calls and so on? 1 A I originalIy asked her to talk to him about it and 

2 A Yes. Yes. 2 then when I thought about it, you know, I don’t want to use 

3 Q Okay. And did she express any dissatisfaction with 3 my friends for my own agenda. orhcrwk I would have Laked 

4 the physical nature of the relationship? 4 thesrorytothepRssbef~~~electionand~him-I 

5 A She said that she would have liked to have had more S mean, I would have loved to have done that, buL you know, 

6 of an i.rtvO~Wmen t. Youknow. Imean -- 6 you can’t txx! your friends. 

7 Q Did you ever discuss the President with h%n&!a on 7 Q Okay. Now, the original question was have you ever 

8 the telephone? 8 talked to Monica on the phone about the Resident. Was this 

9 A I brought him up, I think, a couple of times and 9 a conversation that took place on the phone? 

0 Sk wouldn’t taIk about bim on the phone with me. 10 A Yes. On the phone. Either I called her or she 

1 Q So the conversatiims that you have bad with kkmic~3 11 calIedmeandItoldherthatIdecidednottosendthe 

2 about the President have been confined to your personal 12 lettezr. 

3 exlcollnters with her? 13 Q And did you tell her wby? 

4 A Yes, with one exception. 14 A Yes. 

S Q Okay. And wbat was that? IS Q Okay. 

6 A This was not about her -- this was after she stayed 16 A Yes. 

7 at my house on Labor Day weekend 17 Q And why was the reason you just expressed to us. 

8 Q Thisisin 1997? 18 A Yes. 

9 A Yes. - 19 Q Okay. All right. Now, going back to May of ‘96, 

0 Q So we’re jumping ahead just a little bit. 20 thisis~spaovcrMcmorialDaywzdcard~wasth:ncrt 

1 A Do you not Want me ti say this now? 21 time you saw Monica in person? 

2 Q No, that’s okay. Go ahead. But just so the grand 22 A That was in September of ‘97. 

3 jury understands, this is a subsequent visit. 23 Q So it’s a whole year and several months laler. 

4 A Okay. WhatbadhappenedwasIhadtoldherabouta 24 A Year and a couple of months later. Yes. 

s political fantasy that I had for years and she had told me 25 Q And in between, had you spoken to her on the phone? 

Page 42 Page 44 

I ~t~~o~t-~dIh~~y~~if~w~d 1 A A couple of times, yes. 

2 present it to Clinton and she thought be would love it, you Q And during any of those conversations, did you 

3 know, and she wanted me to write it up. ii f&4gss the President? 

4 WhatitwaswasIalways-Ialwaysdreamedabout 4 A Well, I know I asked her once or twice if she was 

S a secretary of volunteerism in the cabin& that would really 5 still involved with the President and she said she’ll talk t& . 

6 make volunteer work a national priority and I thought it 6 me when she sees me, but she didn’t at that time anywqy like 

7 would be great if it was a volunteer position when: somebody 7 to talk about this or w 

8 like the man who fouxkd Habitat for Humanity would %akc -I 

8 phone I wou,dn,t pz$$ tilling t0 ta ab0ut it on h 

9 don’t want to stray, I’m sony, but in any event -- 9 Q Okay. Before we start talking about the Labor Day 

0 Q It was an idea that you had tbat you presented to 10 time that you saw her which was over a year later, during any 

1 Monica. 11 of the conversations that you had with Monica, did sbc ever 

2 A Yes. Yes. And what happened is that at this point 12 tefl you about any gifts that she gave the President? 

3 she had told IX that, you know, Clinton wanted to back off 13 A Yes. 

4 from the relationship, he didn’t want to be involved he felt 14 Q What did she tell you? 

5 embarrassed about his behavior, he wanted to be a better 15 A Well, you’re talking about prior to Labor Day? 

6 husband and better fatber, be wanted C&&a to be proud of 16 Q well, if that’s the case. Is that the case? or in 

7 him,andsoI darxi and I felt that 1 shouldn’t give 17 any of the conversations that you had. 

8 heranythingforhertohavea~tomeettheResidenS 18 A Okay. All right. I don’t -berWhenthCgifts 

9 I didn’t want to feel in any way, shape or form responsible 19 weregiven. ThereareonlythreegiftstbatIdoremembx. 

0 fordoingsomc&@tbatwouldhavehabcamundbim. Iwas 20 Q And wbat were they? 

1 glad, I wanted it over. 21 A Thereweretwotiesandonebook. 

.2 Q Sk had asked you in fact to write up a proposal 22 Q Did she tell you how she got the ties to tl~ 

.3 for the President. 23 President? 

:4 A Yes. 24 A Through Betty &Tie. 

:5 Q And you &lined or you decided not to do so. 25 Q She said she -- 

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1 A One tie I knew was through Betty Currie. And I 

2 dont ’ remember if the second tie was through Betty Currie or 

3 if she gave it to him. 

4 Q And did she tell you whether the President had ever 

5 worn either of the ties? 

6 A Deftitely one of them. 

7 Q What did she tell you about it? 

8 A Sk said that there Was a pictuxe in the New York 

9 Tiiwlmehewaswearingbextie. And,youknow,sbedid 

0 mention that there were several times whae he had worn her 

1 tie. 

2 Q Okay. And what other gifts did she give him? 

3 A Abook. 

4 Q And what do you know about the book? 

5 A What I know about the book is that there was an 

6 antique dealer - he had told her that he went to a shop 

7 where there was an antique dealer -- 

8 Q He, the President? 

9 A I’m soriy. Clinton said that he went to an 

!o antiqtz shqp and there were two books that be was interested 

!I in. Idon’tremem ‘berwhettzrbesaidthmeweretwobooks, 

:2 okay? 

:3 I know that he mentioned a book to her, she went 

4 to the shop, and she had told me the name -- she told me 

5 everything, I just can’t remember. I’m really sorry. 

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1 But she went to see him, she went to the shop and 

2 she explained that she was somehow ated to the 

3 President, I don’t xemember what she said, and she asked if 

4 the owner of the store could tell her which books the 

5 President looked at. Or not the owner, I don’t know whether 

6 hewastheowncr,butthemanwhoshespoketo--thisis 

7 where I get nervous about not making mistakes. 

8 In any event, so he told her which two books and 

9 sheboughtoneofthem. I remember that there were two 

o books. 

1 Q And she told you -- 

2 A It was a historical -- it was of a historical 

3 nature. Yes. 

4 Q And it was an old book? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Anditwasabookthatshegavetohim? 

7 A It was a used book. I don’t know how old it was. 

8 Q And she gave it to the President. 

9 A YeS. 

0 Q All right. Did she ever tell you about any gifts 

I the President gave to her? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q What did she tell you? 

4 A She told me about T-shirts from some place in the 

5 northeast, I don’t tanember if it was Nantucket or Martha’s 

Page” Tuesday, June 23, 1998 

Page 471 

1 Vineyard And sb: told me about a hat pin, a brocch, 1 cant ’

2 remember. 

Page 4< 

1 Q She told you about that in person? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Did she ever show you that ad? 

4 A I saw it, but she didn’t show it to me+ I saw it in5 the papers after the story broke. 

6 Q Did she ever tell you about any telephone 

7 conversations that she had with the President? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q What did she tell you? 

D A Well, she told me he would call iate at night and 

I hewould--1dobelievethatsherezordedoneortwoof 

tthm. 

3 Q Did you ever hear say of those recurdings? 

4 A Ihadwinterestinit. No. Ineveraskedher. 

5 BY MR. EMMKK: 

6 Q Could I ask just a clarification? When you say 

7 tbatsbemadercfcrenottosom:telephoDe~ofpbbac 

B calls from the Residens did you have au impression wbctber 

9 shcwast&ingaboutawholcumvmatimthatwasrecaded 

3 orwbethertheremnsimply~ tbatwere1eftonkr 

I machine? 

2 A I got the impression that it was a phone 

3 umversation. Thar was my impression, but I couldn’t -- I 

f don’t want to swear to it. 

5 h4R.JzlmlIcK: AIrright. 

: 

3 Q Ahatpinandabrwch? 

4 A I think so. But she didn’t -- she didn’t show it 

5 to me or anything. 

6 Q YOU neversawany OfthepIt?sentS? 

7 A No. No. 

8 Q Okay. Did she ever telI you, Monica, any nicknames 

9 that she used for the President? 

0 A Handsome. SbecalledhimHandsome. Iaskedher 

1 what she called him. I said, “Do YOU call him Bill? You 

2 know, what do you calI the guy?” And she said that she 

3 usually didn’t caII him anything. She would call him 

4 Handsome and she said hc really liked that. And wheo she 

5 wouldgetmadathim,shewouldcallhimtheBigCreepix 

6 &eep. 

7 Q ~youknowifsbecalkxihimthatnametohisfacc 

8 or she talked about him that way? 

9 A If I did know, I don’t runember. I don’t remembu. 

0 Q Did she ever tell you about any Valentine message 

I that she had sent him? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q what did she tell you? 

4 A It was published in a paper, in a personal ad in 

5 the paper, and she quoted from Romeo and Juliet 

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1 BY his. WIRTH: 

2 Q Does any particular time stick in your mind as a 

3 time that she mentioned that he called? 

4 A She said he would call late at night. When he -- 

5 Q Go ahead. I was going to ask you did she tell you 

6 ~~w~at~~~t~~~ed? 

7 A Sometimes from the N%ite House and sometimes when 

8 he was traveling. 

9 Q Andwhrewassheatthetimethathecalled? 

0 A Inbed. 

I Q Athome? 

2 A In her house. Yes. Her phone, She Said, was in 

3krlxdmom. 

4 Q Okay. You mentioned Betty Currie earlier in 

5 conne&onwithatiethatMonicagavetothePresident 

6 thm@BettyCurrie. ~d~~e’sn~~~up 

7 in any other context? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q What-did she tell you? 

0 A Sk told me that she had become friendly with 

J Betty. SbetildmethatshehadconfidcdinBettyaboutber 

2 relationship with the Presideat But what I want to clarify 

3 isIdidn’t~hcrwbatthedetaiiswffethatshetoIdBetty 

4 and I don’t know. 

5 Q Okay. Did Monica evier tell you where she would see 

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1 THE WU;ISON: Excuse mc Mr. Emmick. Ms. Wkth. 

2 MS. ~TH: It’s time for a break? 

3 THE FOREPERSON: I think its ’ time for us to take ; 

4 little break. 

5 Ms. WnUH: Okay. 

6 THE WITNESS: oh, thank YOU. can I Xse the kdies’ 

7 room? 

8 MS. mm: Yes. Sure. Do you know where it is: 

9 THEwTrNEss: Yes. 

IO his. mm: Okay. 

I1 THJZ wJYlwEss: Thank you. 

!2 MR. EMMICIC: How long a break should we take? 

13 THE FOREPERSON: Let’s take a ten-minute break. 

14 Ms. wm: Do you want to take your soda with you? 

5 You don’t have to, but if you want to, you can, 

6 ~~~~0~ ~d~~a~~~~ 

.7 and get you when we reconvene. 

8 THE wrmE%: Thank you. Thank you, And I’m 

9 sorryio MS. WiRTR You can leave -- 

!J THE wn’bu%s: Can I just off the record say I’m 

12 sorry, I’m very emotional, so I am sorry - 

!3 MS. mm: That’s okay. 

14 MR. EMMICK: Its ’ dl right. 

:5 THE JTXEPERSON: This is a pretty s&y 

Page 52 

1 the President, meet with him? 1 environment, so I would feel the same way in your shoes. 

2 A You’re talking privately, not iq the Rose Garden 2 THE WITNESS: Are you the chairman of the grand 

3 and stuff like that? 3 jury? 

4 Q Yes. tight. 4 THE FOREPERSON: I’m the fOrepersOn. 

5 A ThedS fUl OffiCe,SheSaid, that WaS OffOfthe 5 THE mss: The foreman of the grand jury?. 

6 Oval Office that was his private room. 6 THE FOREPERSON: Yes. 

7 Q Okay. And is that whze she told you her sexual 7 THE WlTNESS: Okay. Thank you. 

8 encounters took place with the President? 8 (Witness excused. Witness recalled) 

9 A Her not really sexual encounters. Yes. 9 THE FORJ?PJ$SON: Ms. Wirth, bir. Emmick, we bave a 

0 Q The way she described tlzm to you. 0 quanunand~arenounauthorizedpeop~eeintbejjurq 

J A YeS. 1 room. 

2 Q Was it your impression from talking to her that 2 Ms. Young, you are still under oath3 there was more than one encounter of that nature? 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

4 A Yes. 4 MR. EMMICK: fds. Young, before we get started, 1 

5 BY MR. EMlUICK: 5 didwanttaconveyacoupleofideasonbehalfofth:~ 

6 Q Did you have an impression of how often? 6 jurors because they asked me to. The first is that you’ve 

7 A A few times, but I -- no. I’m sure if you could 7 expressed some concern about your possibly being ovcrIy 

8 hypnotizemeandgetmetogobackavartimeIcauld--1 8 emotional or that your character, your personality, is an 

9 probably know, but I don’t remember. 9 emotional character and personality. You should know that - 

0 Q You’d know because - you would how bow often she o don’t worry about that. 

1 refed toit? 1 THE wYInJEss: Thank you. 

2 A Monica is very, very - when she tells a story, she 2 MR. EMMJCK: We have stm emotional people, this iS 

3 likes to go from beginning to en4 she really likes to tell 3 an emotional topic, and it seems to me you’re just being 

4 details. So, you know -- and I guess I pressed for other 4 yourself and he’s nothing wrong with that and th: grand 

5 kinds of details and so that’s how the stories come out. 5 jurors recognip: that. 

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1 Second, you’ve expressed some concern, may& 

2 embarrassment, over the fact that you’re talking in somewhat 

3 explicit terms about sexual, very personal matters. 

4 Again, the grand jurors want me to express the fact 

5 that they’ve heard other sexually explicit conversations, so 

6 this is not a shoeicing thing for them and it may cause you 

7 some embarrassment because we’re largely strangers to yoy 

8 but there’s no reason for you to be distracted in your 

9 testimmy because of that. 

10 THE wI.Imss: Thank you. 

II m. EMMICK: And, finally, just along the same 

12 lines, you have expressed concern about., gosh, what if I make 

13 amistake. 

14 Now, obviously, we want you to be as careful as you 

15 can, but, again, keep in mind that what we really want i: 

~6 for you to do the best you can in being as truthful as 

17 you can. If you wee to make a mistake, a mistake is not 

18 tk same thing as perjury. Perjury is limited to that 

19 catcgq of cinuins- wkrc you know youre ’ intadonatly 

!O lying. 

!I So as long as you’re not intentionally lying and 

!2 you’re doing the best you can, I think you can be confident 

!3 &at things v&I work out 

!4 THE WITMESS: Thank you. 

!5 MR. EMMICK sure. 

Page 54 

1 BY MS. WlRTHz 

2 -Q All right. I’m going to ask you just a couple of 

3 questions that pertain somewhat to things that you’ve already 

4 testified about. 

5 When you frrt spoke to Monica about her 

6 relationship with the President or at any time after that, 

7 did she ever tell you how the relationship began? 

8 A Yes. I know that she did because of the way she 

P tells stories, but I can’t remember. I just can’t. I’m 

IO redly sorry. 

I1 Q Is there anything about the governmen t shutdown 

12 that rings a bell as to when the relationship began? 

13 A x~ow~at~~~~~~~r~w~s~ 

I4 would be answering tkphones during the go- t shutdown 

15 andIknowthathewouldcallhcrintheroom~shewas 

16 answering the phones, but I don’t remember. 

17 Q Did she describe anything about her encounters with 

IS tbcPrrsidentwhenbewouldKrmeintoth:roomwbacobtwaJ 

19 -g the phones? 

!O A She told me that she really felt that he was 

!I physically attracted to her. That’s what she did tell me, 

!2 Q Okay. AU right. During any of your coovavltions 

!3 with Monica about her relationship with the President, did 

!4 she ever express to you any concerns about being caught 0~ 

!5 being seen or any precautions that were taken? Anything l& 

Page 55 

1 that? 

2 A ISemIt remember, I just can’t -- she told me 

3 that there was this lady who complained about her be’ 

4 around the President, which I think you mentioned to me, I 

S Lieberman. 

6 Q I asked you if the name Evelyn - 

7 A If that name sounded familiar. 

8 Q I asked you if Evelyn Lieberman was familiar. 

9 A Yes. But she did tell me that theze was concern - 

0 oneoftbe reasons why she got transfer&d to the Pentagon 

I was because she was around the President too much 

2 Q And is the name Evelyn Lieberman familiar to you? 

3 A From you Ibe name sounds familiar, but I can’t -- 

4 I’m really sorry. 

5 Q Okay. For the record, I just asked you whether 

6 it’s a name that sounds familiar. 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q Okay. And it is familiar from things you’ve read 

9inthepapexs? 

3 A The name sounded familiar but I don’t remember 

1 where. It’s a name that I recognized. 

2 Q Okay. But it’s not a name you can associate with 

3 thiswomanthatyouwerejustdescribingthatMonicatalk& 

1 about? 

5 A Idont ’ xmember a specific woman. In other Words 

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I itwasa~feelingthatshewasaroundtheResi&nt 

2 too much that I remember. 

1 Q Okay. Did Monica ever tell you in relation to 

4 Betty Curie wktber she told Betty Currie whatever she told 

5 her about her relationship with the President in a specii 

6 setting? Like outside the White House? 

7 A Idon’tknowwhyI’mthinking-abariscomingto 

8 my mind, but I can’t remember. I mean -- 

9 Q Did she ever mention the Hay-Adams Hotel? Did 

D Monica ever say that she -- 

1 A That name sounds familiar, but I can’t place it I 

2 can’t place - 

3 Q Okay. So you have some memory perhaps -- 

4 A There’s a Hayloft Hotel in West&stq I know, but 

5 I can’t - I’m sorry. 

6 Q okay. But you have some memq, perhaps, of Manic 

7 ~~~~~s~p~~~~~~~~Ho~7 

s A It’s not a jarring feeling to say yts, but I 

3 wouldn’t swear on it. 

1 Q Okay. All right. Now, going back to Labor Day, 

1 okay? Y~~~~~~~~U~M~~~~ 

2 inMayof’96aodtbenitwasmuchlata,inSeptanhsrof ’ 

J ‘97, that you saw Monica next. Is that correct? 

t A Imaherinthesummerof’95andthenIsawher I 

j atthespa-Imean,Ioriginallymettrs- I 

_- 

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1 Q I used met in the sense that you saw her in person. 1 talk.” 

2 A Okay. Right. Okay. I’m sorry. 2 And I said, ‘No, no, no.” I said, “I’m not a 

3 Q That’s okay. 3 political person, but trust me, if he wants you the, he 

4 A So I met her -- I just wanted to clarify. I saw 4 knows who to talk to, who to create -- you know, a job wouh 

5 herandmetherinMayof’96andthentbenexttimeIsaw j 5 he created for you. He does not want you there.” god she 

6 her was in September of ‘97. Yes. i 6 asked me why and I said. “I.don’t know why, but he dcpsn’t 

7 Q Okay. And where did you see her in September 05 7 want you there.” 

8 ‘97? I 8 Q Did she ever mention the name of anyone at the 

9 A She came to my house. I met lzr in Mamaroneck 1 9 White House that she spoke to about getting back into the 

o when she had gotten off of the Parkway and then she foliowe& IO White House to work? 

I my car and drove over to my house. 111 A Well, in the card - 

2 Q And she stayed with you that weekend? 

I 

12 Q Which I have in my hands, which is Exhibit DY-I. 

3 A No, that ni&t. 13 would you read that for the grand jury? Is that a note from 

4 Q Thatni& 14 Monica to you? 

5 A One night. And she left early, she left before I 15 A Yes. 

6 woke up the next morning. 16 Q And that’s a note she wrote to you after that Laho 

7 Q AII right. And that was over thz Labor Day 17 Day weekend visit? 

8 weekend. 18 A Yes. 

9 A Ye.% - 19 Q Could you read it to the grand jury? 

0 Q ~d~dyou~~~d~~w~k~da~ut 20 A Yes. “Dear Dale: I wanted to thank you for dr: 

1 her relationship with the President? 21 kindness and friendship you extended to me last weekend 

2 A YeS. ‘22 I really needed the friendly ear and good advice. 

3 Q And what did she tell you? 23 Unfortunately, I came back to DC, ordy to learn that tb 

4 A She told me that -- as I indicated, now I’m 24 detailee slot in Marsha’s office is no longer available. 

5 forgetting whether I spoke here. or in your office, but she ! 25 I had a long conversation with her and it is clear to mc new 

Page 58 Page 60 

1 told me that he wanted to end the relationship, that he 1 that I won’t be able to come back any time soon. I think the 

2 -wanted -- did I say this here? 

. 

’ 2 end of this whole trauma is over.” I couldn’t tell if it was 

3 Q Continue. That’s all right. 3 trauma or drama. “I just wish my heart didn’t have to be 

4 A I’msorry. I’msorry. Ican’t remember. 4 broken in all of this. Weft, I hope you and your family are 

5 Q You may have, but go ahead. 5 weIL Again, Dale, thanks for being such a great f&ml. 

6 A Okay. I didn’t want to be redundant, but he had 6 Love, Monica.” 

7 told her -- he had told her that be didn’t - he wanted his 1 7 Q Okay. And did she ever tell you whether the Ma&a 

8 daughter to be proud of him and he wanted to be a better1 8 that she referred to in this letter was Marsha Scott? 

I 9 husband, he wanted to be a better father, and that he felt 9 A That name Sounds awfully familiar. What she told 

o guilryabouttbewayhehadbehaved~lfandhewan~to IO me--see,Idon’trememberif-- 

I ~p~~v~~~y~~~ Andshewasveryupset. I 

2 mean, she had very strong feelings about him. I believe she 

111 Q Can I ask you one question before you go any 

I 

12 further? Did she tell you that -- was it your unv 

3 told me that she loved him 13 thattheMarsharefaredtointhisnotewa.ssumeonewhe 

4 Q Did she teli you anything about any discussions 14 worked at the White House? 

.5 ~atshehadwithtfieResidentabouthacomingbacktotbe 15 A Yes. 

.6 White House to work? 16 Q Okay. And that was someone she had discussed with 

.7 A She -- yes. Yes, she did. She told me that he had 17 you during your Labor Day meeting? 

.8 beentryingtogetherbackinthe’WhiteHouseandIsaid. 18 A Yes. She had told me that the President had her 

9 “He’s full of shit.” Excuse me. But I -- I said that 19 interview for a position, and I’m not sure if it’s th: sam 

!o becauseI--1toldherthatifhewantsherbackinthe 20 person that she refers to in the letter, but a woman who the 

!i White House, she’d be there. 21 President had had a ~~atio~s~p with previously from 

!2 I said, “Monic& he’s the most powerful man in 2 Arkansas and she felt a little bit awkward about it 

!3 world and you’re going to tell me be wants you to be in th: u Q Okay. All right. Now, when was the next time you 

!4 white House and you're not there?” And she Said, “Given his 24 spoke to Mot&, either in person or on the phone, afta &t 

!5 position of power, he can’t just get me there or people will I 25 Labor Day weekend encounter? 

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1 A We spoke about the let&r that I didn’t send her, 

2 about the volunteer -- the position in the cabinet of 

3 mctetaty of volunteerism. And then I spoke to Marcia all 

4 the time, but I didn’t speak to Monica frequently, probably 

5 less than three or four times between then and -- she called 

6 me on my birthday, she sang “Happy Birthday” to me on my 

7 office machine and I spoke to her the next day. 

8 Q And that was January of ‘98? 

9 A Yes. 

1 0 Q And your birthday is what day? 

1 1 A January 4th. 

1 2 Q And she called you on your birthday? 

1 3 A Yes. 

1 4 Q Did you have any conversations -- 

1 5 A And tLn I spoke to her on the 28th or 27th of 

I 6 February, which I told you about. 

I 7 Q Okay. We’ll talk about that in a few minutes. Did 

1 8 you ever speak to Marcia -- 

1 9 A %,yes: 

2 !O Q - her mother about Monica’s relationship with tlu 

2 Ii President? 

2 !2 A I didn’t speak about the relationship. We spoke 

2 !3 about what I would do if Monica were my daughter to - 

2 14 Q How did that conversation take place? What 

2 15 happened and when did it happen? 

Page 6: 

1 A After -- did I tell you here on record that Monica 

2 had asked me not to discuss her relationship with the 

3 President with ha mother? Was that here or at your office? 

4 Q I believe you did say that today. And that was 

5 during your initial conversation in May of ‘96? 

6 A That was in May. Yes. 

7 Q And this is at the health spa when Monica told yo 

8 for the first time about her relationship with the Pm&lent. 

9 A Yes. 

I 0 Q And at that time, she asked you not to tell her 

1 1 mother about this. 

1 2 A Or anyone. 

1 3 Q Okay. Did she tell you at that time whether Sk 

1 4 had told her mother about it? 

I 5 A YeS. Yes. 

1 6 Q She said that sbe had? 

1 7 A Yes. But I didn’t -- 

I 8 Q But she asked you not to discuss it with her 

I 9 mother. 

2 !O A Yes. But what I really need to be clear about, 

2 :I becausefdon’twanttosayanythingthat~uidhurtanybody 

2 :2 Betty Ctie or Marcia or anyone, is that while she told M 

2 ‘3 that she told her mother about the relationship, I didn’t ask 

2 14 her “Did you tell her all tbe details?” And so I never 

2 !5 discussed any of the sexual elements with her mother and I 

Pagem Tuesday, June 23, 1998 

Page 63 

1 don’t know what she discussed with her mother about that. 

2 Q Okay. Did tl~re come a time when you received a 

3 phone call from Marcia? 

4 A Ye% Yes. 

5 Q Can you tell the grand jury when that happened? 

6 A Yes After Monica stayed in my house on L&or Day, 

7 I got a call -- and I’m pretty good, I can mcognizc people’s 

8 voices on the phone, but, you know, Marcia had called me an 

9 itwasobviotlsthatshehadbaRlcryingandshesaidtome 

0 that Monica had told her that she confided in me about her 

1 relationship with the President and she said to me that -’ 

2 well, she told me that - I don’t want to be self-setig, 

3 mean,butsbesaidtom:thatshewasgladthatsbehadtold 

4 me because she felt that I would have given her similar 

S advice that Marcia would have given her. 

6 ~d~~d~~,R~wo~dyoudo~it~ 

7 your daughter? How would you --” you know, hecause - I 

8 mean, Ma&a really did not -- was not happy. And I told her 

9 that what I would do is I would call Beuy Cunie and I wouh 

0 say to her, “If you ever let my daughter see the Presiden 

1 again,Iwillleakittothepressthattherewasa 

2 relationship and that you basically allowed my daughter 

3 access.” 

4 Q And did Marcia respond to that? 

5 A Yes. Marcia said - Marcia was very, very 

P%F~ 

I 

5 And I said to her, “You didn’t ask me about -. 

6 maintaining your relationship with your daughter. I mean, 

7 you’re talking about a ti@.rope. You asked me about how to 

8 get your daughter not to be involved with the President.’ 

9 And I said, you know, that I didn’t see how to have it both 

0 ways. I didn’t see - it was -- it was not easy. 

1 And she told me that she did caIl Betty Currie. 

2 Shetoldme-youImow,after-after~hedspoktnabout 

3 ifshetoldmethatshedidcallBettyCurrieandshesail 

4 that Betty told her that she couldn’t discuss anything with 

5 Marcia, that Marcia had to understand Is?r positiou. 

6 Q Did Marcia tell you what she said to ELztty Currie 

7 when she called her? 

8 A No. No. 

9 Q Was it your understanding that Marcia said 

0 som&iqsimilartoBettyCunietowbatyoua;lggcstedsbe 

I should say? 

2 A ~tIw~dhave~~I~‘t-ye 

3 know, it’s all speculative, what I would have guessed is that 

4 she explained that she was Monica’s mother and that she 

5 wanted to taIk to her and that Betty probably just cut it 

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1 off. 1 Q Did Monica ever tell you whether anybody was 

2 Q But what did Marcia tell you that Betty said? 2 helping her get a job in New York? 

3 A She said you have to appreciate my position and I 3 A Idon’tlmowwhyIwant16saytheResidenfbutI 

4 Can’t talk about this with you and she wouldn’t talk to her. 4 never - you asked me in the office if I bzard of Vernal 

5 Q Do you know when that call took place? 5 Jordan helping and I never did bear of that. But I want to 

6 A No. 6 say the President, but I can’t be specific. I just can’t -- 

7 Q DO YOU remember Marcia told you about it? 7 I can’t say - I just can’t say it. 

8 A No. No. But what -- 8 Q Because you have no definite memory of that? 

9 Q Did Marcia say anything to Betty when F3etty said 9 A Yes. What I really want to say to you is that win 

o that, according to Marcia? Did she tell you? 10 I have convasations with my friends, I mean. I never in a 

1 A Not that I know of. What I told -- see, what I 11 miIlion years expected to have to answer questions under oat 

2 told Marcia that I wouldn’t have let her off the hook that 12 about a friend of mine and SO I didn’t go hol~le and write 

3 easily. 13 notes and I didn’t -- you know -- 

4 I said, “I wouldn’t have cared if I sent her a 14 Q Did the subject of the Paula Jones case ever come 

5 certified letter return receipt requested putting her on 15 up6 notice you don’t let me daughter in the of&e.” 16 A No. 

7 You how, I’m the type of person I’m your best 17 Q - between you and Monica or you and Marcia? 

8 friend, I’m your worst enemy. You know, you don’t mess 18 A No: Wait a minute. I know I never discussed it 

9 around with my family and that’s how I would have -- you 19 with Monica, I don’t believe I ever discussed it with Marcia. 

o know, I’m very - I don’t know. I don’t know. I mean -- 20 I know that in general I spoke about the Paula Jones case on 

1 Marcia - it was very hard for her. 21 my own very, very frequently, so I can’t say. 

2 I also told her that I would move -- you know, I 22 Q With them? 

3 would get out of there. 23 A No. No. What I’m saying is ingeneral. 

4 Q tit of there being Washington? 24 Q DidMonicaeverteilyouthatshewascmawitncss 

5 A Out of Washington. Yes. 25 list in the Paula Jones case? 

Page 66 Page 61 

1 Q And, in fact, Ma&a did leave Washington, didn’t I A No. 

2 she? 2 Q Did she ever tell you that she had contacted a 

3 A Yes. 3 lawyer in connection with representing her in the Paula Jones 

4 Q And she moved to New York. Is that right? 4 case? 

5 A She has an apartment in New York. I don’t know -- 5 A Nothing about Paula Jones. 

6 you know, all of my calls were to Washington, straight 6 Q Did Monica ever tell you that she swore out an 

7 through to the end, I would always call -- 7 affidavit in the Paula Jones case? 

8 Q Call Marcia in Washington? 8 A No. Nothing. 

9 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. Did Monica ever tell you about any desire on 

0 Q Okay. Did you ever hear from either Marcia or 10 her part to get a job in private industry in New York? 

1 Monica that Monica was intending ta move to New York? I I A Now, I remember -- I remember when I read abol 

2 A Not that she was intending to, but that she would 12 Revlon that it didn’t surprise me when I read it, but I 

3 like to. 13 didn’t have a recollection specifically. 

4 Q Did you ever hear anything about any efforts on 14 Q Now, in between September and January when you ga 

5 Monica’s part to find a job in New York? IS your birthday call from Monica, did you speak to Monica on 

6 A This is getting very difficult for me because this 16 thephcme,asidefromtbeoneoccasionwhenyoucalledbzr 

7 iswhereIcan’tseparatetbings. LiiIknowIreadallof 17 abouttbcvohmteerthing? Aboutthefactthatyouwacn’t 

8 tbisintbepapersandIcan’t remember whether I knew about 18 going to send her the information for the President. 

9 individual aspects of jobs. 19 A I don’t have a nx&xt.ion of speaking to Monica 

0 I remember hearing about the prospect of a job 20 IwouldtallrtoMarciaatleast--Ican’tsayatleasthvice 

1 with the UN. from Marcia or Monica, but I didn’t hear -- I 21 awe&. I’dsayontheavea-ageatleasttwiceaweek. There 

2 hew that Monica didn’t want to work in tk UN. I also knew 22 might be a week or two where I wouldn’t talk to her, bu 

3 that Marcia didn’t want her to work in the U.N., but I 23 generally speaking, I spoke to her all the time. 

4 couMn’t swear tmdef oath who I heard it from. You know, I’m 24 Q To Marcia? 

5 sorry. 25 A Marcia is one. of my best friends. 

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I Page 69 

1 Q Now, when Monica called you on your birthday, which 

2 you said was January what? 

3 A The4th. 

4 Q The 4tb? 1998. And sang “Happy Birthday.” Did 

5 youhaveanoeeasiontospeaktoheraftersheleftyouthat 

6 message? 

7 A It was on my maelIme, on my voice mail, and the 

8 next day I called cm her mother’s line, they have two 

9 separateliws,andMonicawasthae,u,IaskedMarciato 

o putheronthephoneforasocondandshedidandshesaidto 

I me, “Did you get my message?” I said, “Yes, thank you.” 

2 And--Imean,I remember reading in the papers 

3 after - you know, I had known later that that was after she 

4 had signed the affidavit and I realimd - I couldn’t believe 

5 that my friends would actually think to calI me on my 

6 birthday wheu they must have been going through hell and I 

7 didn’t know about it. 

8 Q Okay. Did you have any further contact with Monica 

9 before this story became public on January 21,1998? 

0 A Idon’trecaIlbetweenJanuary5thandthe2lst 

1 speakingtoher. No. 

.2 Q During any of your wnversaticms with Monica, did 

3 the name Linda Tripp ever come up? 

4 A Itememhershehadtalked-itmusthavecomeup, 

Tuesday, June 23,1998 

Page 71 

I finisbe.dtbern,wasarnannamedAlbertPodell. AndI2 anyway, I couldn’t tea& Marcia or Monica, I kept on calling 

3 and calling and calhng. 

4 IleftamessagecmDebiFii ‘s rlumber because 

5 IhadreadthatsheLivedintheWatagate,~Imetbs 

6 she wasn’t living in the Watergate. And you know, I 

7 couldn’t reach my friends. I sent a letter to them. I 

8 didn’t~sigomynsmebccauscIwasn’tsulr:whahaornot 

9 hermailwasbeingtakenbytheFsIor--1wasjustvery 

.o nemous, I didn’t know what to do. 

,l All I could do - I left a message, a couple of 

:Z mesages, on Ginsburg’s line, he never called me back until I 

.3 beeped him. And, you know, and I felt very, very helpless 

14 because here, you know, I saw what was happening to my 

.5 frimds and I couldn’t reach them. You know. And I’m a fum 

.6 believer that, you know, you have to be there in the hard 

i7 times. 

!8 Anjkiy, I couldn’t reach them and I knew that this 

;9 lawyer had a way of contacting Marcia. So I -- 

!O Q And this lawyer is Mr. -- 

!I A Albert I’OdeII. 

!2 Q Podell. Okay. 

!3 A Anyway,whatIdidwasIasked--hesaidtome- 

!4 hesaidifKenStarrdoes-~earkedmf:whatIknewabaut 

!5 the relationship anyway so I told him about my relation&r 

1 

I 

I 

I 

1 

1 

1 

I 

1 

I 

: 

; 

; 

: 

2 

: 

I 

1 

1 

1 

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1 

1 

1 

1 

2 

2 

2 

2 

2 

2 

5 but Ididn’t rtmea.nti it coming up and tk rason wby it must 

Page 70 

1 havecomeupisbecauseshohadtoldm:thatshehadtold-- 

2 she told me that she had told a lot of people about the 

3 relationship with the President. 

4 I mean, like, in different conversations, she’s 

s say, oh, I told this one or I told that one, and she told me 

5 that she told somebody who had gone forward and spokm to tbe 

7 press about somebody else and I kind of realized later that 

B she was talking about Kathleen Willey and Linda Tripp. 

9 And what I said to her, because this is what I say 

D to my daughters, I’m sure I said that, I said to her, “You 

1 know, you have to understand the best indication of futlm: 

2 behavior is past kcbavior. Wbat in God’s name would make you 

3 think if somebody told something about one person they 

4 wouldn’t tell you?” 

5 And she spoke about trusting somebody and -- 

6 anyway. So it must have -- you know, I can’t imagine it not 

7 having been Linda Tripp who she was talking about. 

8 Q After the story became public, did you have any 

9 contact with Monica or her mother? 

0 A Yes. 

1 Q What happened? 

2 A What happened was - aye, aye, aye. I - when I 

3 wasealIedalotbythcmedia,aftiendofmineknewalawyer 

4 who started doing the pre-nups for Marcia and Peter Straus. 

5 And the lawyer who started the pre-nups, I don’t believe he 

Page I. 

I withbothofthemandhetoldmethatifKenStarrdoeshis 

2 job, I’m going to get subpoenaed and that I’m going to need 

3 an attorney. 

4 And I had real problems - I never committed a _ 

s crime, so -- I mean, that’s not true. I’ve sped and I have 

6 committed a crime, I don’t want to say I haven’t committed a 

7 crime -- that’s what I mean. I don’t want to - you know, I 

8mean,IeommiterimeS, but -- but what I mean is that - 

9 MR. EMMICK: Actually, that’s an infraction rather 

0 thanacrime. 

1 THE WITNESS: Okay. I’m sorry. 

2 MR. EMh4ICK: But we understand the concept 

3 THE VCDJESS: Okay. But what I’m saying is 

4 I don’t want to he. And so -- I’m sony. Okay. 

5 Anyway, but the point is that as far as this whole 

6 thing is concerned, I didn’t comtm ‘tauimeandIdidn’ 

7 understand wby I would naxi an attorney and Albat - anyway, 

8 sohesaidtomethat-Ineededtheprtsstogctoffmy 

9 tail. 

i0 Imean,theyweredrivingmecrq,asIexpect 

11 they’re going to for the next five years of my life, but they 

s wrrconmytailandInee&dthemt.oleavemealonebcca 

!3 all the time. -- they kept on calling and calling. Well, you 

14 know what it’s like, I’m sure they hound you all the time in 

15 your office. 

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Page 7? 

1 So in any event, what happened is that I - Albert 

z said that he would mite a letter ta Marcia asking Marcia to 

3 contact Ginsburg to get the press to Ieave me alone, x%ich I 

4 didn’t know how it would work, but be it as it my, I said to 

5 him,“Iwiuhireyouforonetbingandonetbingonly. Ido 

6 notwanttoputyouonraaincx. Howmuchwillyoucwm 

7 to send the letter?” 

8 So he charged me $200, he sent a letter and Marcia 

9 u#ltactedrneaadallshedidwas--byph~andsbesaidto 

0 me, “I am so sorry.” 

1 And I said to her, “You have nothing to apologize 

2 about.” You know, I said, “WS not - you didn’t do 

3 aaything.” I said you know, I said, “Piease undemand the 

4 masonIhiredAlbertwasitwasmywayofsayingI’myour 

5 friend.” 

6 I~~~~sw~~hadj~~~~ 

7 didn’t know -- you know, I didn’t want to just hire any 

8 lawyer because if they got -- you know, hwJh3.S - yoU ~DOW, 

9 tky’re adversarial by nature so if you get a letttz from 3 

LO lawyer, you’re going to think that somebody’s after you, 

!I somebody’s going to hurt you. 

!2 And if I couldn’t reach her, I wanted her to know 

!3 I’m not turning on you, you’re my friend. And so by 

!4 hiring -- I’m sorry - 

!5 A JUROR: Adversarial by nature. That just rang a 

Page 74 

1 bell. 

2. TEIE WITNESS: oh, okay. 

3 A JUROR: I aplogize. 

4 THE WITNESS: So anyway, I retained Albert’s 

5 services for that as my way of saying I’m your friend, you 

6 know, and I don’t want to talk to the press. So she had 

7 oLledmetotellmehowsony~~,youknow,andIsaid, 

8 “If there’s anything I can do,” she said, “There is nothiq 

9 you can do.” 

0 She said, “But she’s seen the belly of the beast” 

I She said, “Dale, you wouldu’t believe how ugly.” And I said, 

2 “Oh, I think I would believe how ugly this is.” You know. 

3 An~anyway,andshsaidthatIhadtounderstaadwhyshe 

4 didnt ’ call me and I really dont ’ undtmtand. 

5 I mean, for the life of me, you know, Albert 

6 advisedmenottobyand~MarciaaadMonicaandIwas 

7 sit&g there saying, you know -- Albert was saying, “Well, 

8 how will it look? How will it look?” 

9 I said, “How the hell does it look if these are 

!O my friends and I don’t call km? You’re like a piece 01 

!I garbage if you don’t call your friends.” And he said, 

!Z “No, but you don’t understand.” 

!3 Well, I don’t understand. You lmow, I still 

!4 don’t understand bxause if these are your friends and you 

!S don’t call them, you know, it basically looks like they’n: 

Page 71 

1 abandoned. I’m sorry. This whole thing really -- thank you 

2 AT--Y -- anyway, so I -- you know, and Marcia on]:, 

3 spoke for a little while. She said that if we’re only on the 

4 phone for a brief period. you know, wc obviously can’t talk 

5 about - anyway -- 

6 AndtlxnIkeptontryingtocalIandtryingto 

7 call, you know, and - anyway, finally, I must have trier 

8 almost every single day, the end of February, I called OI 

9 Marcia’s line and Monic-a answtxd the phone. And it was my 

0 early, I would call Marcia early and I called Monica - 

1 always called Monica later because Monica’s -- anyway, I 

2 w&ldcallthem. 

3 And so No&a answered Marcia’s phone and we spoh 

4 for~ostanhourandshewouldn’t-wecouldn’t--she 

5 felt that her phone was tapped and she wouldn’t talk about 

6 theease. 

7 We spoke peripherally about the case. I asked her 

8 what she thou& about Ginsburg because I had very, very 

9 serious reservations and, you know, I -- &exe were a Iot of 

0 things. I said to her, “You know, Monica, his job is to 

1 protect you” I said “What the hell is he talki?g about 

2 Israel for?” 

3 You know, I read an article where -- I dont ’ know 

4 if you have seen this or not, but I clipped this out, I had 

5 itbythesideofmybedtotalktoMonica 

Page 7t 

1 He said, “1 support Israel, Monica supports Israel, 

2 we’re both Jewish, we don’t want to see the Pm&lent -” I 

3 said, “What -I’ I don’t want to -- I said, “What the fuel; 

4 dces it matter what he thinks about Israel?” I said, you 

5 know, “It’s not Ginsburg’s place --‘I 

6 And what Monica said to me is “What he said is 

7 true, we both are Clinton supporters.” Sbe said, “Bum” she 

8 said, “It did get played out poorly in the pmss,” and she 

9 said -- you know, ,@e said that she feels very confident in 

0 Ginsburg, she said, “But this is uncharted territory.” She 

I said, “Who’s an expert in this kind of situation?” She said, 

2 “There’s no precedent for it” 

3 And so she said that, you know, she’s learning am 

4 she felt very - I’m sorry. And she felt confident about his 

5 representation. 

6 Then I brought up the stupid thing he said to Bill 

7 Saf&e about Clinton being a misogynist or something - I 

8 don’t rememberwhatitwas. AndIsaid,“Whatthebellisbe 

9 asking Saffm about usage for?” 

0 I said - you know, I mean, I said, “Why is he 

I asking for your friends to wme forward?” I said, “what is 

t wrong with this man? He’s uncontrollable.” 

3 You know, he just -- I’m not an attorney and I 

4 don’t know what his strategy was, but I told her how I felt 

5 about that. 

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Page 7 

1 I asked her if I could see her and she said she 

2 can’t get past the press and I said, “I’ll send you a blonc 

3 wig.” I was kidding. And I wanted -- you know I real1 

4 wanted - she said that she would love to see mc but that she 

5 reallycoLtldn’t 

6 And I asked her how her mother was handling it and 

7 she said to me that I should know better than anyone that she 

8 can’t talk ahout her mother. She said “My mother doesn’t 

9 like when people talk about her.” And that’s the truth. Her 

0 mother, you know, she’s very private. 

1 I asked hzr -- I -- we spoke about trust. I spoke 

2 to her about how upset I was -- I asked her how she felt 

3 about how the President handled everything and she said that 

4 onlyonethingreallybothefedherandshesaidh:hastobe 

5 thewayheis. Shesaidhehasto,he’sthepresidcntofthe 

6 country. 

7 I sai& you know -- well, I don’t know if I said it 

8 to her, but I said to my friends, he could say something 

9 novel like tell the truth. You know? He could say that to 

0 Susan McDougal, tell the truth, something very simple. But, 

1 again, I‘m a lay person and -- anyway. 

2 BY MR. EMMlCK: 

3 Q What did she say in response to that? 

4 A She said to me that one thing that bothered her wa 

5 when he said he said he never had sex with “that wornan.” 

Page 78 

I She didn’t like the way be said “that woman.” 

2 And I said, “Monica, what about~the time when a 

3 reporter asked him if there’s anything you’d like to say 

4 to Monica and be said, ‘Well, that’s a vety good question.‘” 

5 I said, “Monica, be could have said ‘Thank you.‘ 

6 He could have just done anything instead of just laughec 

7 it off.“ I said, “He’s leaving you out to hang.” I said -- 

8 the only reason, the only reason, you know, the spin 

9 cycles haven’t started was because she hasn’t testifiid 

0 against him. 

1 You know, I mean, this to me has been stunning 

z because I know what thq tried to do her, what Clinton’r 

3 office will try to do to her, if she ever did come here an< 

4 testifjc 

5 But in any event, you know, I asked her what she 

6 had thought about that and I asked her -- I told her that I 

7 -WY-=-4 ~titwo~d~~f~~~~w~ 

8 to ttut in the future. You know. She told me that she does 

9 know who her friends are at this point. She said she really 

0 does. Andshetoldmethatshewasconcernedahoutwhether 

1 M not her friends would want to stay her friends because of 

2 what a mess this is. 

3 I’m trying to think if there’s anything else we 

4 spoke about. I mean, we were on the phone for almost an 

5 hour. She did tell me tbat she probably shouldn’t talk tc 

9 her about what I had written about her and how I felt. 

10 BY MS. WIRTK: . 

I1 Q And when you were! talking about that, you were 

12 referring to this letter that you wrote earlier which is DY 

13 Exhibit 3A? 

14 A Yes. 

I.5 Q That you read, that I helped you read towards the 

16 end? 

.7 A Yes. Yes. 

.8 Q O&y. All right. Did you have any further contac 

9 with Monica after that phone call? 

!O A What happened is that same night I caIIed back 

!1 hoping to reach Marcia and I did and Marcia said to me 

12 “Monica is very naive and she doesn’t understand, she 

i3 shouldn’t have spoken to you.” And she asked me please not 

:4 to call her again until this is over. And, you know, and. 

:5 I -- you know, I had to respect her wishes. 

Page au 

1 I caIIed Peter Straus a couple of times to see bow 

2 she was doing and -- 

3 Q And Peter Straus is Marcia’s husband? 

4 A Yes. Yes. And I did send Marcia a letter and -. 

5 you know, the one good thing about being subpoenaed is now 

6 aftertheNewsweekarticle~outI~talkk,Marcia 

7 again. 

8 Q Okay. Can you tclI the grand jury what you’re 

9 referring to when you say the Newsweek article? 

0 A Whathappenedwastheofi&ina~attorneywhoIwas 

1 working with, Albert Podell, and I and my husband all spoke 

2 and we did feel - I don’t want to be offensive, but I felt 

3 thatiffwasgoingtobesubpoaraedthatmytestimonyisso 

4 salacious and I couldn’t imagine it not leaking out and I 

5 just wanted very much to ger the story out straight, I didn’t 

6 want to be in a defensive position if it came out, to thfm 

7 have to explain myself. 

8 I wanted to talk to one reporter, basically explain 

9 my f&tionship and my fatlings about both Monica attd Marc& 

0 Iwantedtotelltbestoryandldidn’twgntamediacircus. 

I The last thing in tbe world I wanted was a media cirms. 

2 And what happened is that the attorney I was 

Page 75 

1 me. She told me that the FBI had her phone book and that I 

2 might have been subpoenaed, you know, and -- I said to her. 

3 “I really hope you don’t go to jaii. I really hope you don‘t 

4 go lo jail for that guy.” 

And she said she wasn’t going to. She said that 

i she wasn’t going to go to jail for her and I said, ‘Thank 

i 

1 

7 God.” You know. And 1 told her about the -- after she told 

8 me about tbz article that she thought was fair, I had told 

I ‘

Diversified ’ RemMing Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

3 working with wanted me to talk to Is&off and then - 

4 Q That’s bfr. hdefl? 

5 A Yes. Wanted me to talk to Mike Isikoff from 

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A RC. ua 1 l”-ga I..uA.I 1 %U IYbJwa,, .Pu&Alr L-l, AI/c. 

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1 NcwEwcdcandtbcnhcwantDdmctobanaprss~~ccthc 1 IHE WlTNESS: You meaning your office. I’m sorry. 

2 day after Newsweek came out 2 I can’t remember. 

3 Q Okay. And just so the record is clear, that was 3 BY h4R. EMMICK: 

4 soIrdiqthatyoulteverdisedwithanyouf!intheofIice 4 Q Was there any reference by her to a steward or 

5 of the Independent Counse& is that correct? 5 someonewfioworkedinfhekitchenareaoftheOval~ct? 

6 A No, I never did. No. 6 A. No. No. No. I remember-thesewcmqtion 

7 Q okay. thhW. 7 you asked me earkr. It’s starting to sound familiar, bl 

8 A No. No. Please, don’t ask me to do a press 8 its ’ familiar from you, it’s not familiar from Monica, 

9 cmference. I won’t do it. 9 Q Did Monica ever express any concern about do 

0 Q No, going to hh. I&off - 10 ~tserViceandthefactthatthesOnetsenieeisarorrad 

1 A No. No, no, no, no, no. 11 so they are potential wittresses and might have seen any&i& 

2 Q-- was something that you did not discuss with 12 A Idon’t mber. I don’t remember. 

3 anyone from our office, is that right? 13 Q I wanted to clarify one thing that I thought pu 

4 A No. No, no, no, no, no. No. 14 might have nxmtioned carlicr and I wasn‘t sure if you bad 

5 Q &ahead. 15 said it here or not. You had mentioned a conversation that 

6 A Anyway,Albutwantedmetodotbepresswufuence 16 you had with hiarcii Lewis whue the two of you rliscusscd t& 

7 and Albert felt that my testimony was very significant and I 17 fact that Lewis now knows that you know -- 

8 felt that I was very peripheral and I felt that this is not 18 A Yes. 

9 my story, this is Marcia and Monicas ’ story. and I don’t want 19 Q -- about the relationship between Monica and the 

D the press conference. 20 President. 

1 I feel that if after -- if the Newsweek article is 21 A Yes. 

2 accurate, then there’s nothing else for me to say, I will 22 Q And I thought I recalled that you earlier said that 

3 have said ever@ing I needed to say. If it’s not accurate, 23 Marcia said something to you along the lines of “Well, were 

4 and if Marcia and Monica want M to say same&kg, thy can’t 24 you ever going to t&I mc if I hadn’t leamed from Monica?” 

s tellmewhat--Idon’t~anybodycaacbntrolme,Ithink 25 A Yes. She said to me, she said -- what she said to 

Page 82 Page 8‘ 

I that’s fairly obvious, but if they feel that some&i% would I me was “If I didn’t know about the relationship or if you 

~~e,iftheysaytome,“Couldyoupleasemakea 2 thou@ that I didn’t know about it, would have mr to11 

3 public statement?” I’ll do whatever they want. But I don’t 3 me?” 

4 want to be in that situation. 4 And I said to her, “I’m glad I didn’t have to 

5 Q Did you meet with Mr. Isikoff? 5 consider that,” because I would have felt - I have quite 6. 

6 A HecametomyhouseonJune 1st. 6 few relationships where I’m friends with a parent md.a 

7 Q And your house is in Westchester County? 7 child. On Sunday, 1 had a father’s day meal with my I’+&! 

B A Yes. 8 daughter and her husband and it’s common for me, brrt you 

3 Q Okay. And for approximately bow loog did you sneak 9 know, it’s a little bit awkward when people tell you mtain 

3 tohim? 10 things and I’m a fairly open persou, but since she’s over 21, 

I A About four hours. i I I probably wouldn’t have told her. 

2 Q And is there any understanding between him as to 12 You know, 3 have told parents things that tkir 

3 when this piece would be published? 13 kids have told me. Like when my daughters’ friends, my 

I A It would not come out until after I testified. I 14 daughters’friendste~methings,ifIknowtbeparentsand 

5 did not want to be bombarded downs%& , you know. IS I think it‘s dangerous, I’m going to tell. But if it’s not 2 

6 Q Okay. And is the first time you told anyone from 16 matter of life and death, I’m not going to. 

7 our office about this piece today? 17 So I told - you know, I told Marcia that I wz 

B A Today. Yes. 18 glad that 1 didn’t have to consider that. But what I don’ 

3 BY MR. EMMICK: 19 lcnowwhctherIsaidinhereorinyourofficeistbatIhm 

3 Q I have a few follow-up questions. I wanted to ask 20 that Marcia knew about the relationship, I don’t know tk 

I whether you’ve ever heard the name Nel used by Monica. 21 details that Marcia knew. 

2 A You asked mc that before. 22 And I just have to be clear because I don’t want tc 

3 MS. WRTH: Actually, 1 did 23 beinasituationwhtreanybodysaysIsaidthatM~Lnow 

1 THE WITNESS: Im ’ sorry. 24 tbat Monica bad oral sex but not really with the president, 

5 MS. WlRTHz Thats ’ all right. 25 because I don’t know that. 

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I Q So when you say that you know that Marcia knew 

z what do you know that she knew? 

3 A bow that she knew? 

4 Q Right. I mean, there’s details, there’s a mid 

5 level and then there’s very generalities. 

6 A yes. 

7 Q What is it that - 

8 A what I[ knew is that she knew that there was an 

9 involvement with her daughter and the President. And 

0 that’s -- you know, in other words, if my daughter, if my 

I 17-year-old daughter, if she were older and God forbid she 

2 was involved with a marrkl man and she said to mc, “Mmy. 

3 I’m involved with a married man,” I would make my own 

4 assumptions, but I doubt that she would tell me what Monica 

5 bad told me, for example. Even though my daughter and I an 

6 very, very close, she doesn’t - you know, she keeps certain 

7 areas of her life private. 

8 BY MS. WlRlX: 

9 Q Earlier we talked about Monica teI.Iing you that tb 

D President would call her late at night. 

I A yes. 

2 Q Did she ever tell you anything about what they 

3 would talk about? 

4 A I’m sure she did, but I can’t remember 

5 specifically. I’m really sorry. 

Page 86 

1 Q Okay. Did she ever tell you whether there was 

2 anything sexual in nature about those telephone 

3 conversations? 

I A what I know I said in your office is that I felt -- 

5 my recoUectiou is that they were sexually charged in that 

5 when people am involved - the same way when my husband 

7 would call me when I was doting him, all of our conversati~ 

3 whether they ever dealt with sex or not, they’re sexually 

? charged. There’s that kind of anticipation and excitement in 

) theair. 

I So I felt whenever she would talk about her 

Z conversations - I mean, whenever she would talk about 

3 C&ton, tIxxe was that kind of charge to it. 

I BY MR. EMMICK: 

5 Q ~of~~n~~t~~of~~dj~o~ 

i have asked about in general is to have a fuller picture of 

7 Monica from Monica’s friends and since you are one of her 

1 friends, I just want to ask you the open ended question what 

3 can you tell us about Monica that will help us understand her 

) and her role in all of this? 

1 A That’s a funny thing because I hadn’t thought -- 

2 I could tell you Monica is bubbly, Monica - she’s very 

3 helpful, she’s very generous. 

4 I mean, she wasn’t making -- she had told me what 

5 her .~11ar~ was and it was under S30,OOO and I love angel pins 

Page % ‘ Tuesday, June “,z:rj 

1 andshehadboughtmeanangetpinthatIalwayswonoaone 

2 of my fanny packs until it broke and she knew that I W 

3 toys and she and her mother sent me these lit& clidd 

4 type of toys that you can make necklaces with, you’d open 

5 them up and you’d reattach them. I mean, six’s just vuy 

6 generous. 

7 She’s very giving. She’s a lot of fun. I mean, 

8 she’s -- she has a great sense of humor, she loves to la&~ 

9 She doesn’t hold anything back. You know, if she likes what 

0 you’re wearing, if you have a nice smile, she’s as warm as 

I can be. 

2 She has lousy taste in men. You know, I think - 

3 and, you know, I think that that’s fairly obviously from, you 

4 know, 4 and -- 

5 I don’t want to say anything bad, but I do feel 

6 that -- 1 feel that she doesn’t have enough self-esteem or I 

7 don’t think that she would have gotten into a situation with 

8~orwiththeResidentorwithmaniedmenin 

9 generaI,Ithinkthat--Imean,Ithink--she’sbn’ght- 

:O sheam’tspell,Iaean,thepaperspieslntherassomebody 

:I who can’t spell. 

2 My husband, who is one of the smartest men I’ve 

3 evarnetinmylife,hasasignoohist)rpewrita,Ithinkit 

4 was by Andrew Jackson that says, “It’s a poor mind indeed 

5 that cannot think of at least one alternativfz spelling fcPage BC 

1 any given word.” And all of my daughters, all my daughters 

2 have - I cdl them genetic spelling deficiencies because 

3 they can‘t spell. 

4 And, you know, and you’re much -- most of you am 

5 muchyoungerthanme,theydon’tteachspeiliaginscbools., 

6 the way they used to, it’s not focused, and a lot of play has 

7 come out about Monica not spelling. For God’s sakes you 

8 know -- but she’s very bright and she’s very personable. Ant 

9 I couldn’t imagine anybody not liking her. 

0 I~~I~d~~~~a~~t-I 

1 like to match people. I mean, if I’m with som&ody who’s 

2 single and I know somebody else who’s single, I & anything 

3 can. I Iove matching people. And my frknd oww this 

4 Italian testaurant and we brought her to an Italian 

5 ~t~dI~~~o~~tf~~~~~1 

6 said, “I want you to meet my friend Monica, she’s single and 

7 she’s goqaw.” And Monica said, ‘*Dale+ plmsc.” You know. 

8 Like she tried -- you know, she doesn’t like wficn 

P people talk about her but she’d do that about you. If shr 

3 hadsomcthiagnicetosayaboutyou,shewoufdn’tholdit 

I back. 

:2 I just think the girl is wonderfX And what I’( 

.3 reallyliketosayisthatwhenItead--youlalow,youtake 

4 things out of context. I don’t know if -- is the grand jury 

5 allowedtoreadthepapers? l?xxe’saquoteaboutMoai~ 

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“J I.lU.1 A WY I uu*ua,, 4YLIY LJ, . / ,. 

Page 89 Page91 

I Monica said “I lie all the time.” Okay? She said that, she 1 Tnpp tapes and the affidavit, when I mad it, I was sitting 

2 said that in the tapes. 2 there saying I didn’t see the inconsistency, independently of 

3 Well, I rumernber sitting in cow you know, I go 3 the piece that she had told me about the President not 

4 to smalI claims assessment review, end I sat there and I was 4 coming, I didn’t see the inconsistency, because I know on a 

5 sitting opposite aLI arsesor and an appraiser and a judge and 5 puwmal level, on a very personal level, when Monica said 

6 I mentioned to the judge I’m basically honest and the judge 6 she didn’t have sex with the President and she said she had 

7 looked at me and said “Ihat’s like being a little pregnant.” 7 oral sex with Linda Tripp, when 1 talk about sex, I rnear 

8 AndIsaidtohim,“YoraHoaor,Ilieeverysingle&yand 8 intercourse. 

9 I’m an honest penon.” He said, “Do you want to explain 9 I have three daughters and when I gave birth to 

0 that?” 10 each of them and my gynoxlq$st said to me no sex for six 

I I said, “Are you a parent?” He says, “Yeah.” II weeks,Iwam’tgoingtocallhimupandsaycanIhaveoral 

2 ‘That’s the best tie I’ve ever seen, I would buy that for 12 sex. The doctor meant intercourse. 

3 myself. Icau’tbelievehowgorgeousthatartworkiS. You 13 When I was a virgin -- you know, I’m talking 

4 could really be held up in the Metropolitan Museum.” If 14 toyouopenly~~youwen:allmyfrieMisbecauseIreally 

5 you’n: a parent and you don’t lie, you’re a lousy parent. I I5 want you to understand how I fee1 about Monica -- but when 

6 don’t care. 16 I was a virgin, if somebody - and I had had oral sex 

7 AndsoI-andsothepointisthatifyoutakeit 17 before I had intercourse - if somebody said to me “Did 

8 out of context, if you take something that somebody says out 18 you have sex?” I would have said no. And I wouldn’t have 

9 of context T and that’s why I was afraid of the press - 19 bum lying, 1 probably would have just vohmteered, “No, I 

o anybody can clslse off Iike a complete moron, like a dishonest 20 had oral SZX.” 

1 person. 21 And even now with my husband, if I have oral sex, 

2 Yes, so Monica said she lies all the time. I’m 22 andxwastalkingtoaneofmyfriendsandshesaidtome, 

3 telling the jury that I expect you to see me as honest and 23 “Did you have sex last night?” And I had oral sex, I would 

4 I’m going to teB you that I lie almost all the time to my 24 say no. I personally use intercourse and sex 

:5 kids. 25 interchangeably. I don’t use oral sex. 

Page 90 Page 92 

1 So what I’m saying about Monica is you have no I And what I feel is that Monica -- I really believed 

2 idea,everybody -andoneofthethings&atdrivesmecrazy 2 that if you said to Monica, “Could you describe the intimate 

3 is my frieuds have said to me -- I mean, I have friends who 3 relationship with the President,“ and she signed an 

4 say “How could you be friends with her?” I say, “Who the 4 affdavit, I really believe that she would have told you mom 

5 IdI do you think you are judging her? You don’t fmow her.” 5 of what she had told me. I don’t believe the girl lied.. 

6 And I can tell you, none of you know Monica 6 I feel that she ba.s suffered so much for so many ” 

7 Iewinslcy. None of you. Because what you mad in the press, 7 months unnecessarily. I think she’s a pawn. I think 

8 you’re reading media creations and you don’t know the girl. 8 everybody is trying to get the President and I feel that if 

9 And you don’t know her mother. 9 she had committed a minor crime, she wouldn’t have bad to go 

0 I think you have a pretty good sense of me. I’m a IO through the hell -- I mean, this girl’s life has been turned 

1 pretty open person. Is there anybody here who thinks that if I 1 upside down. It’s been turned upside down. 

2 you’re social climbing the way Marcia was portrayed in the 12 And I think that any -- anything that could have 

3 papas,amIth:typeofperxrnthatyouwanttobefriends 13 happened in the tapes or in her affidavit., the punishmenl 

4 with if you’re a social climber? I’m a what you see is what 14 that she has is so out of proportion to anything she eoulc 

5 you get type of person. You know. IS have said or done that I hope - I hope you have a better 

6 I mean, I’11 teIl you a dirty joke, I’11 take you I6 picture of her and treat her with compassion. I really do. 

7 on a Habitat for Humanity work-a-thon or something. I mean, 17 Thank you. Thank you. 

8 Ilike-I-IwouldreadarticlesinthepaperandI 18 MR. EMMICK: My suggestion is it’s 4:20 now. Why 

9 didn’tun&rstandwheretbemfzdiawasgoing. IfIdidn’t 19 don’twetakeacoupleofminutes,askyoutoleavethegrand 

0 knowthe namesofthesepeopleandIhadreadthestories, 20 jury room, we’11 talk over with the grand jurors any 

1 other than knowing about Monica and the Pr&&at, I wouldn’t 21 ~ti~q~ons~~y~t~~~d~~~ 

2 have known who I was reading about. 22 are additional questions, we’ll ask you to come back in. 

3 TheotberthingthatIwouldsayisthatwhenI 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

4 read--andIthankyouforgivingmeachancetodothis,I 24 MR. EMMICK: Okay, Thank you. 

5 hopeyoudon’trPgretit-butwhenIreadboththeLinda 25 THE B’D?+ESS: Thank you for giving me a chance. 

1 

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II Re: GJ PFOceedingS Ml& 

Page 9: 

1 moRS: Thank you. Thank you. 

2 (Witness excused. Witness recalled.) 

3 MR.EMMICK: Ijust wanted to let you knowthatwe 

4 have asked the grand jurors whether there zue any questions. 

5 There are no other questions, so at this time you are 

6 excused. 

7 YlwEwn-NEss: ThaRkyou. 

8 hiR.EMMIcK: -l-lmkyou. 

9 moRs: Thank you. 

0 (The witness was excused.) 

I (Whereupon, at 4:26 p.m., the taking of testimony 

2 inthepresenceofafullquorumoftheGrandJurywas 

3 concluded) 

4 l **** 

Page ” Tuesday, June 23, 1338 

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Diversified Repcwtina Services, Inc. (202) 296-2929 
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1 A~NEGEDDES ] 

ru 

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And Most Importantly, She’s Our Friend 

And We Want You To Have 

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You Are Welcome To Share This Invitation With Your Friends! 

1318-DC-00000003 
4602 

\\ ;Isllingtoll Cit! Paper “I Dated Monica Leuinsk?” 1/30/W x!w’)b: I1 :(li .-\A1 

Prmt or ~oviff~;:a this story. I View the cover 

I Dated Monica Lewinsky 

Behind the tawdriest of headlines, there’s a woman I wouldn’t mind bring 

home to mom. 

By Jake Tapper 1318-DC_00000004 

0 1998 Washington City Paper. All Rights Reserved. 

YOU tend not to spend too much time contemplating Tit% Russert’s innermost thoughts when you’re 

fee; under water, breathing through a narrow tube, soaring past the ocean wall in slow motion, start 

ZOO-vear-old sea tortoises, parrot fish, and coral that have no concern for love or career. A week of 

I-!ewS. 110 television -- nothing more than books and the company of a handful of divers and fisherm 

had no idea of the storm clouds brewing in D.C.; the weather in the Caymans was 80 and sunny, ttj 

diving was clear, and my tan was coming in even and had yet to peel. 

II was while waiting for the first plane at the shack that passes for an airport-in Little Cayman that I c 

glimpse of the AP wire story on the front page of the Caymanian Compass. I w&s_ playing with a pun_ 

the airport office when I saw the headline; the Caymanian reading the paper quickly offered it to me 

clearly had more interest in it than he. 

Page 1 of 5 

I 
4603 

hington City -Paper “I Dated Monica Lewinsky” l/30/98 2128198 1130.1 AAI 

,he world was beside itself about the latest presidential scandal, this one involving an affair with a 

then-21 -year-old intern -- the juiciest story to break in my adult life, a salacious tale of alleged infidc 

between the most powerful man in the Milky Way and a girl named Monica. 

Monica Lewinsky. 

A girl I’d gone out on a date with a few weeks before. 

I hesitate here, because I have no desire to appear on Hard Copy or banter with MSNBCeebees, a 

essentially, I feel bad for poor Monica and feel unclean adding my feeble barnacle to her ship of fat 

Although I will admit to an odd weave of loathing and envy when I watch the blabbocracy breathles 

weighing in -- Hey, I think, they don’t even know this chick. But I am not jumping in because one dir 

with Monica enabled me to read her mind as she sits with friends and family at the Watergate, ponc 

her fate. 

I write, clearly, because I want a piece of this story just like everybody else. That imperative distingl 

me not at all from every other journalist in Washington. But perhaps even more, I also want to point 

behind this particular bimbo eruption sits a young woman $10 is not a bimbo, who is a fairly sensit 

from what I saw, who was never going to be the one holding a press conference alongside a poste 

blowup of theStar with a back pocket full of the cash she got from selling out. She may be guilty of 

judgment,. but she never asked for this. 

._ 

That said, let the whoring begin. 

It’s still etched on my December calendar: the Saturday night of Joe and Danielle’s going-away par 

Stetson’s on U Street NW. I walked in, checked out the crowd, and immediately headed for Doug, t 

owner. I chatted and drank with him, and, in an effort to make myself as unapproachable as possibl 

started shooting pool with him. Soon enough, Doug was called back to his duties, and I had to start 

feeding the table quarters. Between my former colleague Maloni and me, we could only scrape tog 

three of the requisite four quarters, I took that particular need and blended it with another one, step1 

-to a group of three women who had been hovering near the table. 

“Do any of you have a quarter?’ I asked, and one of them, the one with the smile that seemed to be 

nothing in particular, dug into her purse and handed me one. I thanked her, introduced myself, and 

resumed hunting my target stripes. 

“Am I drunk, or is she cute?” I asked Maloni. 

“Which one?” he said. 

“Monica,” I said. “The one in the black.” 

“You’re drunk,” said Maloni, a rugby pretty boy. I overruled him. She was cute, if a little zaftig. And .f 

And nice. 

I hovered around the coral reef of the pool table for hours that night, never coming up for air. It was 

paddling in my little eddy of indifference, waiting for others to approach me. Which Monica did. I wa 

lining up a side shot when she stepped up and dropped three quarters onto the table, the smile noi 

seemingly offered more specifically for my benefit. 

“For the game?” 1 asked. “You got 

next?” 

131%DC-OOOOO& 

Page 2 of 5 
.hington City Paper “I Dated Monica Lewinsky” I/30198 208198 11:04 A>! 

Ao, for you,” she said. “Just some 

extra I had.” She didn’t strike me as a 

So, ignoring the usual coy mating 

rituals, Monica felt free to actually 

classic climber-just a woman 

be nice. Just to be nice. Maybe she 

wanted to meet me or someone like 

looking for a decent, 

me. Regardless, it was refreshing. A 

challenging job and a happy 

life to go.with it. 

warm patch of water in an otherwise 

chilly ocean. The simple act of gifting 

me with a few quarters after knowing 

me but a few minutes disarmed me. 

1318-DC-m 

I was intrigued enough to approach Joe, who was the raison d’&re for the going-away party. Upon 

inquiry, Joe told me that Monica wasbad news, that she had left the White House because she hat 

wandering into the Oval Office and inappropriately striking up conversations with the commander ir 

“Some weird shit, man,’ he said. “Stay away.” 

--. _ 

But Washington,in its own polite way, generates more trash talk than a Bulls game. People spread 

malicious buzz here -- at the gym, in bars, at lunch .--. with no forethought, just to stay in shape, like ; 

around the block; So even though I like Joe just fine, I didn’t put a lot of stock in his 12th-hand scutt! 

Who knew what the truth was in the shark-infested White House waters? I’ve been “friends’ with a I 

of people who work at 1600 Pennsylvania and have seldom trusted anything they say. 

Joe’s misgivings aside, his girlfriend Danielle, ever the yenta, was eager to facilitate. “Jake,” she E 

me as she stood with Monica. “Do you want Monica’s number?” 

“Sure,” I said. And a scrap of paper went into my pocket. Home and work phone numbers -- a good 

A few days later, I called her at that Pentagon job she was soon to leave. Busy, she needed to call I 

back. She did. The conversations were terse but friendly; we made plans to get together when she 

returned from a job interview in N.Y.C. I thought it odd that she was leaving the Pentagon job withoi 

new one to go to, but she explained that she was anxious to leave D.C. and live with her mom in NI 

York. Her long hours and international roadtrips while working as the personal assistant to the depl 

Defense secretary precluded much of a social life, and she was anxious to move on to something I( 

demanding. 

After a few plans fell through - about which she was unfailingly polite, understanding, and as far frc 

aloof as you can get -- I picked her up at her mom’s place at the Watergate. I’m 15 minutes late for - 

everything, and I always get lost around the Kennedy Center, but she waited in front, no big deal, 

seemingly psyched. We hit Adams Morgan. Her job meant she wasn’t getting out much, so any plan 

sounded great to her. I took her to Roxanne’s, a nice Tex-Mex place where I’d eaten a million times 

my brother waited tables there. 

This was Tuesday night, Dec. 23. Her last day at the Pentagon was rapidly approaching, for which 

was grateful. Trapped for months in whatever tunnel she was in, she probably saw a glimmer of ligl 

thought she was still going to be able to extricate herself before the flood waters reached chin level 

escaping D.C. with a life intact. Her good mood and light manner indicated that she hd no idea th: 

matter of days she would become a chew-toy for Ken Starr. 

Right off, Monica was different from the standard D.C. date: not a salad-picker, she joined me in apl 

and an actual entree of her own. She had a beer or two, while I drank bourbon. She even offered tc 

fnr hor charm a fairi\/ rare nffer 1 roie&orl hllt annr@riatPr( 

bltp://w\vu.washingtoncitypaper.com/Monica/Monica.HT~~L Page 3 of 5 
I got the same basic’bio you did, though mine was spoken rather than in black and white in the 

Washington Post: raised in Los Angeles, a city she found fake because her “hair is brown and boot 

real.” Parents divorced, dad a doctor, mom an author, seemed to be some family money floating ara 

there, very close with her mom. Lewis and Clark College (huh?), liked Portland, Ore., just fine. Whit 

House internship, arranged through some random contact I-didn’t quite get but didn’t push, Pentag, 

personal assistant. 

I’ve had my share of dates with Really Important D.C. Career Women, and I’ve found it’s easy to gel 

skinny on anything that ever happened to a woman from meiosis ‘til the leak she took before desse 

Monica wasn’t like that, peppering her monologue with questions for me and actually listening with 

to the responses. She didn’t strike me as a classic climber -- just a woman looking for a decent, 

challenging job dnd a happy life to go with it. We talked about some of her past relationships, thou{ 

president’s name did not come up. I didn’t work her over for her opinions on Netanyahu, the emetic 

residue from her parents’ split, any of that. It was a first date, one I wasn’t sure would be followed b) 

second, and how was I to know that the woman on the other side of the table would set the preside 

seismic rumblings? 

She struck me as cheerful, open, a bit too much a resident of Planet Hap-Hap-Happy in my acerbic 

little bizarre in her almost childlike sweetness -- it was tough to juxtapose her almost giddy warmth 

gravity of the places she had visited, like Bosnia -- but she was from both L.A. and money, so her 

-- unusualness had a context. She mentioned, more by way of observation than complaint, that her 

transcribing duties for the DOD were massively challenging for someone who had more skill in 

communication than in typing -- a tidbit now used as bimbo ammo, though it seemed reasonable to 

the time. 

Physically, she was pleasant without being overwhelming. She’s a little chubby, but she’s leaps an 

bounds prettier than that vacuous mug shot beamed all over the world. (You know how some photc 

yourself can make you cringe? Imagine if one of those became a new international icon. We shoulc 

allowed to pick our own pictures at times like these.) A great dresser - she wore some black ’70s n 

kind of, but not in the slightest bit revealing or inappropriate. The reason D.C. quislings are hissing _ 

her “wacky” dress is because she has a sense of style, and this city, simply, does not. 

So. A sweet girl. Nice. 

Maybe we’ll go out again, I thought. 

She said as much: “Yeah, I’d really like to get together again. You’re really easy to talk to.” 

And that was it. I was coming down with a cold, and she had to get up early the next day for her last 

work, so I dropped her off before midnight with a very innocent goodbye. As it happens, our second 

got lost amid New Year’s, my vacation, and my setting up a new apartment -- in the cleaning of whit 

threw out her number. 

And apparently, she was kind of busy, too. 

Continued 

http://w\f,u .wasIlingtoncitypaper.com/Monica/Monica.HTML Page 4 of 5 
4606 

Date: Saturday, February 28, 1998 10:48:09 AM 

Subj: Monica Lewinsky 

To: webmisc@washpost.com 

Monica Lewinsky is a young woman who was betrayed by a woman she 

thought to be her friend. The moment of betrayal came in the midst of an 

FBI sting. Feeling completely helpless, and as if her “life was over”, she 

declined to. accept her offer of immunity from prosecution if she offered 

her complete cooperation with Starr. She declined that offer in order to 

protect the president. 

Rather than th’e scouring the depths of Monica’s past .to determine her 

character, I believe the. above story speaks volumes --about the lady. At 

what must -have been one of her lowest moments, she refused to betray 

deductions that can be 

another for her own benefit. 

Where are the headlines stating one of the few 

drawn from the limited facts in this circus? 

I for one, would rather be friends with Ms. Lewinsky than with anyone else 

in this mess. She alone put other’s interest above her own. 

1318-DC-oooooooS 

2/28/98 Amrica Wine : DJY!51 Page 1 
4607 

13%DC-oooooo11 
4608 

1840 Victory Boulevard 

Giendale. California 91201 

January 30.1998 

Iama~youfiavereqnestedachancetosctourscriptbeforebroadcaa Unf ortnnaltly, that is 

a~~~~~. Howcvcr,amwritingto8ssan~youofaurinteotions. Wcwillbe 

faiI8ndacnuate~ wewillbecaringin.td -ding to Monica’s pL@ht. We will wodc closety 

tithyoutomalcesxxeyauarccoxnf6xtabkwitbouTstory. ~y~wo~d~~~ 

~twillmuwithjroubdoretheintcrvkw. He,orshicandimtssyou.rccmoerns.and 

answer any of your questions. 

SfcYC Lang 

Executive Prlxhlcer 1318~Dc-ooooooo9 
4609 -- 

01/30/98 FRI 20:27 FAX 202 783 9400 .#“.-*- a rn, NlrO ,UlMC pw5 

_LYF’OST DC BURE@ Iu.” Nu.L1~4JcJ’pJ5;) vbcw FLI)S 

@loo1 

r 

ESW: 00 you still have hopes th8t you will r6nch 8n agreement? 

WC: I have no hopes or cxpcctatiru of ury kind with respect to an a-mat. If t)rcy offer it WC 

will conrider it. ,Our Iinn arc open. 

BW: Mr. Ginsburg, mot too 1~ ago h. lewinski seem@ ta have been x rather happy-go-lucky 

young woman with a great future &head Of her- 1 wonder how Bhtt feds when he heats di of these 

thing aaid about her? 

WC: She is devostatcd. She goes i&o ~II emotiorul fit whan rhe hears these things end sJw wants 

to retaliate and she wl)rb to spa& and she wants some support. When one is frarcn in their tracks 

in a duation like this and I al yaw viewers to condder fear, the agony, the frik, bcini; imprisoned 

practJcJIy in an apartment..%, I know it’s a nice apartment but you can? ga oat for li walk. You 

can’t 60 out far UI JCS cream, you an? lp out for wythirrg. 1 dc you to concider how devastating it 

cm be to rh srauni l Jl day and watch flvc ttctworks and a hundred local shows, all raying you are 

unrrliable, you ere tcr+Je, and one pcrwm after artother, coming up with bad mtwiec. How about 

wmebdy coming farward and saying nice things about Moniad We known Monica a long tiv 

J lrnow she has a lot .of frivnk Some of them should come forward. But you knwv what? l+e I 

tabloid prer~, and that% the &&vmii msdh ps well as the writtm mcdii they% not interested in 

propbe who wani to say that Monii Is a bright, We, &rain? young lady with tremendow skJ+. 

only interested h the prurient stouir, And you km&It makm me a IJttJr sick. 

. Hugh th3Wft6 and Barbara Walters cc+a&uv AOC News *20/20.* Vii Neufcld is ox=cutiyc 

producer. fCLOSLD=CAf7lONED~ 

ABC News Media Rclationo: Chris tioxander 0 

1318~Dc-OOOOOO10 
4610 

i 

To: 

CaMMEN7’S:. 

.:_ _.. .14-.; . . .