4453 

-lOFFICE OFTHE INDEPENDENT COUXSEL 

Date of transcription 05/01/98 

SANDRA C. VERNA, Officer, United States Secret Service 

(USSS), Uniformed Division (UD), date of birth 

was interviewed at the Office of the Independent Counsel (OIC), 

A 

1001 Pennslyvania Avenue, NW, Washington, D.C. 20004. Present 

for the interview were Associate Independent Counsel (AIC) 

MICHAEL TIWVERS and AIC MARY ANNE WIRTH and Department of Justice 

(DOJ) attorneys GARY GRINDLER and JONATHAN SCHWARTZ. VERNA was 

advised of the identity of the interviewers and the purpose of 

the interview. VERNA provided the following: 

VERNA has been employed by the USSS since October 

5, 1988. After working outside of the White House Grounds for 

approximately six and one-half years, VERNA was assigned to the 

White House complex, without a permanent post, in April of 1995. 

VERNA retained this position until July of 1995, when she was 

moved to the East Wing of the White House as a relief officer. 

VERNA served in that capacity until August or September of 1995, 

when she was assigned to the West Wing _ post. The-post is 

located in the corridor adjacent to the Oval Office. VERNA 

served at this post from August or September of 1995 through 

August of 1996. VERNA worked a rotating shift, which consisted 

of one week of day work (6:OO a.m. to 3:00 p.m.), and one week of 

evening work (2:30 p.m. to 11:OO p.m.). VERNA would fill in at 

other posts from time to time. 

_ was JOHN GERENA. 

VERNA's main partner _ 

VERNA also partnered with GARY BYRNE and 

DAN ORDAKOWSKI on occasion. 

VERNA met MONICA LEWINSKY while LEWINSKY was working at 

the White House as an intern. This was prior to the government 

shutdown in November of 1995. LEWINSKY would always say hello, 

and chat with VERNA. LEWINSKY would pass VERNA several times a 

day at the E-6 post. 

VERNA had heard a rumor that LEWINSKY and President 

WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON watched a movie together. VERNA asked 

LEWINSKY if the rumor was true. LEWINSKY told VERNA that the 

rumor was not true, but that the President had stopped into 

LEWINSKY's office in the East Wing to say hello. The President 

had been watching a movie in the East Wing theater. LEWINSKY 

Investigation on 04/29/98 at WASHINGTON, DC File # 29D-OIC-LR-35063 

- 

Date dictated 05/01/98 
4454 

OK-305 (Rev. 8-19-94) 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

Continuation of OIC-302 of s‘v4zDRA c . vEE*!_A 

&.&VOH 

,On 04/29/98 , pags ZaOvOH 

told VERNA that she had a 

President stqzped in. 

VERNAadVised 

stood in the same area as 

college friend visiting her when the 

thatBAY?WINELVIS. WhiteHouse steward. 

m- NEWIS was friendly, anatrley Oftenconversea. 

VERNAknewNELVIS tobe friendlywithL,EWINSKY. 

Solretine arouM January of 1996, NBLXIS showed VERNA a tie 

LEWINSKYhadgivenhimas a gift. NELVIStoldVERNAthat 

LJZWINSKY had also given the President a tie, for either his 

birthday or Christmas. 

Scmatimeafter LBWINSKYwastransferredtothe 

Pentagon, VG?NA overheard NELUIS speaking to L&MINSKY on the 

pantry telephone. NELVIS told VERNA this as he was speaking to 

LEWINSKY. VERNA told NEWIS to tell LENINSKY she said %i.l' 

VERNA does not recall the specifics of the telephone call. 

NELVIStoldVEXXAthathehad seenL&WINSK~onan 

officialtripabroad thatLdZWXNSKYhadtakena.spart of her jcb 

at the Pentagon. NELVIS stayed at the same hotel as part of a 

Presidential trip. NELVIS toldV!ZRNAthatheandLFWINSKYhad 

dinnertcgether. VERNA couldnotrecallthelocation of this 

trip. 

VEZNA stated that NELUIS never told her that the 

President and WINSKY had a relationship. 

VERNAa.lso~GLENMAES,WhiteHcrusesteward. VERNA 

didnotspeaktoMAESasoftenasshespoketoN&VIS. MAES 

never suggestedtoVERNAthatthe PresidentandLEWINSKYhada 

relatimhip. 

While an on one occasion, VEUNA 

observedI&NINSKYupset was attl2eti.n-e 

LEWINSKY was transferred to the Pentagon. IlJDINSKY was crying 

andqeakirqtoBEITYCURRlE. LENINSKY was upset about being 

transferred. CURFUEtold UWINSKYthat she cculdnotdo 

anything,andthat~KYsh~ldspeaktoNANCYHERNREIM. 

BERNREICH thenentered the corridorandtold~SKYthat there 

was nothingshecoulddo. HEFUWzICHandLEWINSKYthenwalked 

down the corridor together, awayfrunWF!NA. 
4455 

OIC-3023 (Rev. X-19-94 t 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

Condnuation of OIC-332 0i SANDRA C. VERMA 

&aOvOH 

.On 04/29/98 .Page 3&aOvOH 

VERNA advised that she did not lmow of an official or 

unofficial reason for LEWINSKY being mved fro-n the White Rouse. 

VERNA was told by USSS Officer !ZIEVE PAPE that LEwINSKY 

was escorted onto the White House grounds by White Hose Press 

Secretary MIKE McCBRY, on mre than me occasion. PAPE told 

VERNA this after the LEWINSKY story becam news_._ However, PAPE 

hadobservedMc0JRRYandLEWINSKYbefore the storybroke. 

-advisedthat LJZWINSKYhadgivenhera Christms 

card in 1995, and that VERNA had saved it. WINSKY also gave 

VERNA a birthday gift of soap and lotion in January of 1996, fran 

cxAmRlzANDmYN. 

VERM stated that USSS Officer CHRIS SrmBERT told VERNA 

thathewas goingtoaskDEBE3IESCHIFP if shewouldsignaccpy 

of a tabloid article about her. VERNA asked SEUBERT to get an 

autograph for her as well. VEFNA never got the autograph. 

VERNA advised that USSS Officer MIKE RICE told VER_NA 

that he saw a copy of the sam tabloid article, and that the 

President had signed it for SCHIFF'. The autograph read, "Ycu've 

been sxmzmed with the best of us." 
4456 
4457 

Sandra Verna, 6/l l/98 

OIC Deposition 

Page 2 to Page _ 

CONDENSED TRANSCRIPT AND CONCORDANCE 

PREPARED BY: 

OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 

Suite 490-North 

Washington, DC 20004 

Phone: 202-514-8688 

FAX: 202-5 14-8802 
BSA Sandra Verna, 6/l 1198 

4458 

XMAX(V1) 

:11 

-_____. 

Page 3 

PROCEEDINGS 

The name of the witness is Sandra Verna. This 

: B !deposition of Ms. Vema is bein taken 

.I 3; Investigation conducted by the t& 

In Re Grand Jury 

:I :; Counsel. 

ffice of Independent 

-:?l At this time, the attorneys will identify 

am 

i : 5 j themselves and the arties the r&present please. 

1541 MR. TRAJERS: Michael Traders, Associate 

: : 5 j Independent Counsel. 

;i:iCounsel. 

MS. WIRTH: Mary Anne Wirth. Associate Independent 

-‘91 VIDEOGRAPHER: At this time. the court reoorter 

if iiwill identify herself and swear in the witness; please. ’ 

1201 COURT REPORTER: 

.,, IWHEREUPON. 

My name IS Elizabeth Eastman. j 

:221 

.--‘---------~~N~RAJANEVERNA 

:XI having been called for examination by the Office of the 

!2,1 Independent Counsel, and having been first duly sworn. was 

: : 5 1 examined and testified as follows: 

Page 4 

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE INDEPENDENT 

BY MR. TRAVERS: 

Q 

A 

Could you state your full name, please? 

Sandra Jane Vema. 

Q 

A 

Could you ive us the spelling of your last name? 

V. as in V n?? or, E-R-N-A. 

Page 5 

.1, A Mike Leibi 

1: j his last name IS out there 

Ga Grindler. a-d I think Preston was 

3, An a, erson. I’m sc-ry. Davrd 

r:Anderson. I can’t remember them all 

.:I Q Any time that you would like 3 consult with them, 

5; please let us know 

’ ,- j proceedin 

We will temporanly adjc _rn the 

s 

w 

Cl 

Okay 

You have a right to consult v. fh them at any time 

: 5ithat you wish. You also have a n 

3, 

ht not to a-swer any 

i :s:questions the truthful answer to w rch woulc ncrimrnate you. 

: :: 1 You do have an obligation to tell the truth 

: 1: ; prosecuted for 

? 

erjury if you Ire. if 

You may be 

ou are nsleadin 

: l;:rf you answer don’t know”, or “I J 9, .or 

:: 4 :fact, you do know or remember. 

on? remember” I . rn 

;15i Do you understand those rights? 

I!61 A Yes, sir. 

Cl We also are conducting this depositron under an 

~:‘s~infonal agreement with the United States Secret Service 

[lslthat, in conductin 

(zolfor the purpose o 3 ? 

this inqui no questions will be posed 

seeking In ormatron that reveals 

rz~~protectrve techniques or procedures of the Secret Service. 

[zzlincluding secun 

:231or around the W x 

.technologies, armaments. or devices within 

.-~. ite House comolex. 

[?41 2 If we ask-a question that you believe you cannot 

tz5janswer without disclosing that sort of information. please 

Page 6 

[I Ijust let us know and you can step out at that point and 

[21confer with your attorneys. 

I31 Do you understand that? 

[41 A Yes, sir. 

Q Also we understand that at thrs time the Secret 

disservice and the Department of Justice is asserting a 

[ 7 1 protective function privilege with regard to certain 

i 8 1 rnforrnatjon and we will be generally seeking to obtain only 

[sInon prrvrleged information in this deposition. lf we ask a 

rlolquestron that 

1 I1 I at that point Y 

ou believe calls for privileged information, 

p ease let us know, step outside and consult 

: 12 lwith your attorne s. 

il31 A Okay. 

(141 Q When did ou -oin the United States Secret Service? 

1151 A October 5tK 1988. 

1161 Q Could you tell us what your assignments have been 

t171with the Secret Service since that time? 

A Yeah. I wrote the dates down. Can I look at this, 

I :“,i what I’ve dF .s$y then? 

1201 

October ‘88 to October of ‘90 when I 

of ‘89 I was ass‘ ned to the ’ 

of ‘90’to March 0 ‘3 94. I was 

our time and attendance section. 

‘94 I was the East Wing relief 

::I 

:21 

:31 

:‘I1 

:51 

‘61 

Page 7 

:_j Q 

:31 

H’ow old are you? 

i3j 

A Thirty-one ears old. 

Q Can you te r I us your exact job title? 

:::I A Officer. 

;::I, Q Before we get started with the questioning, 

: :Z 1 like to go over a few rights. We are deposing you today in 

: : 3; lieu of a grand ‘ury a 

;: 4 1 served you wrt .c, !r 

pearance. As you’ve seen, we’ve 

a su 

: : 51 ‘ury. 

poena for an appearance before the 

This deposition is being conducted instead of that. 

: 16 1 fhrs proceeding today will be made available to the grand 

I would 

grand 

::-Ijury. 

. . ^ So, it is being conducted under the Federal Rules 

if 5 lof Criminal Procedure rnctudin the 

: I : 1 Federal Rule of Criminal Pr 

rand jury secrecy rule, 

.-. 

oce%ure &e$ 

You have the right to have a orneys 

i :s i outside the room. In fact you do have three a tp 

resent 

.: 3: outside the room, is that correct? 

orneys 

:_ .-4: ‘^‘, 

.--. 

A Correct. 

Q Can you tell us their names? 

OIC-Stair Page 2 to Page 7 
4459 

BSA Sandra Verna, 6/l 1198 XMAXWZI 

Page 8 Page 11 

0 Okay Dunn 

’ E-6 ost say ce:Aeen Otto % 

the time that you were workin at the 

er of 1995 -- I m sorry, Septem 

:I of I!$95 and arc-cxmately October of 1996? 

% er 

A R c,zt. 

: -that she had gone Into the movie, theater with the President 

:. to watch aAmovie and possibly with other people? 

-, That was the Infer -- the only infer -- the general 

; rumor that I had heard was that she had gone to the movte 

I ‘theater 

0 And when you asked her about it, she told you that 

- that had not actually happened? 

A 

Q 

Right. She said she worked late in her office. 

Do you recall seein Monica Lewinsky in the area 

: : j near the E-6 post around the time t 3, at she was transferred 

: : ; from the W;lte House to the Departmeflt of Defense? 

._ -: Yeah. It was probably llke a week before she oat 

Page 9 

r~:probably no more than that. 

i-2: Q Do you recall when ou tint met Monica Lewinsky? 

I think it was 

Iijmaternity cave. which woul 

[s:after I had had my daughter. 

Page 10 

[l]Anything aside from small talk like that? 

A Small talk, you know, how are the kids, how are the 

I:ifamily, what are you doin 

[4 j talking about being on a 8 

this weekend. She was always 

let or telling me about her mom 

[sltrying to fix her up with blind dates, just normal everyday 

~fjjconversation. 

Q Did you at any time hear a rumor involving Ms. 

iz;Lewinsky and having something to do with the White House 

rsimovie theater? 

Yes. I remember hearing a 

i:Fihad been t the movie theater and I asked I? 

eneral rumor that she 

er about it. I 

[~zlasked her about it specifically because at the time the 

(131President and the First Lady a lot of times would take a 

[ 14 1 bunch of people into the movie theater and they would see a 

[151movie on the weekend, and it was fairly routine. 

And I asked her, I said, did you go to the movie 

iititheater and she said no, she had been working late in her 

11s joffice it! the East Wing. She did say that the President had 

[~slcorne out of the restroom that was nght around the comer 

[zolfrom where her office was - they were kmd pf kitty-cornered 

[zli- and sh.e was workma late there and her fnend was visiting 

[zz;from Caltforma. And s e said he did come over, say hello to 

1231 her and meet her friend from California, but she didn’t go to 

i24 jthe movie theater. 

[251 Q So, the substance of the rumor that you heard was 

; 2 : transferred. 

Q 

I do remember Seeing tier over there. 

Do YOU have a recollection of anv soecific 

‘set. Said she was leaving she was being?ransferred. And 

: I Z! s l! e stopped to talk to Betty Currie. She went in and talked 

:z::tcj Be?. and Betty came out in the hallway. They were ‘ust 

::z: kmd o outside the door, close enough for me to ?ee, bu I all 

~2311. all I remember hearing was Be cant help you. 

c-141 

::jl r he otTice. 

ou’ll have to talk to Nancy. And t en Be 

?s.aylng 

walked back in 

Page 12 

Nancv Hernreich came out. started talkina to her in 

_, -..._- 

“1 

.i 3 : 

_-1 

.. ?/ 

.--1 Q And she told you, I’m leaving? 

. , 

.--, A Yes. She said, I’m being transferred. I remember 

1::: her - I mean, not specifically word for word, but she said, 

::31 I’m being transferred, and she was crying. She wasn’t very 

:::;happy. 

::i1 0 

::e:j 

i:: 1 

A 

robably, I’m sorry to hear that. And then she went in and 

.~~, i : 3 I P alked to Bettv. 

d ’ And 

11;; her conversation wit Yl 

ou were able to observe her, at least part of 

A 

Betty Currie? 

I:ii transferred. 

Yeah. She looked upset. She didn’t want to be 

i<:i Betty? 

Q Where exactty was she having this conversation with 

1251 A Here’s the secretary’s entrance door. They were 

Page 13 

o feet outside of the door going 

0 

A 

About how many feet away would you Say you were? 

She was probab y maybe seven feet, SIX. seven feet - . 

: - 1 away. 

!?I Q 

:g;Currie 

And do you recall exactly what you heard Betty 

say to her? 

!1?] A I just remember Be 

T 

saying, you know, there’s 

[ : : : nothing I can do, you’ll have to talk o Nancy. 

!12] Q 

: : 3 : that point? 

Could you hear what Monica said back to Betty at 

:141 A No, I don’t remember anything specific from that 

Aa I just rehe+er Nancy sa 

A 

- what you ve already tol cy 

ing - 

us? 

i-Z] No, nothing. Just other than there was nothing she 

: 1: ; could do. And then they started walkin away. /y_. 

,--_ Q Did the conversation be %I een Monica and Nancy 

: z 3; Hemreich ta.ke place in the same location that you have 

1: 4 : described the conversation between - 

[‘5: A Right. 

Page 8 to Page 13 OIC-Starr 
Page 14 

- Monica and Betty Currie? 

A Yes, I did, a birthda 

iziwas a t was like a box of soaps. I-h 

gift in January of ‘96. It 

ere was lotions in it. 

f 111 And there was like two bottles of lotion and a couple bars of 

;>I lsoap in there. I still have it, but she had given that to me 

i 13 1 for my birthday. 

1241 Q An thing else? 

:25i A A t!hristmas card. I had gotten a Christmas card 

Page 15 

: 11 from her. 

:2! Q Do you recall when she - 

t31 

:41 Aa December. - had 

A Decem % 

rven that to you? 

er of ‘95 I got that Christmas card. I don’t 

$ i remember the exact date. 

Q Did vou ever aive her anv aifts in return? 

A No, f did not. - 

tzllheragiftback. 

Q At the time that you saw Monica have the 

~::~conversations with Betty Currie and Nancy Hemreich that you 

[a~ jdescribed, did you know of an official or unofficial reason 

[25jwhy she was being transferre cr from the White House? 

Page 16 

(11 A 

Q 

No, I didn’t know why she was being transferred. 

Since that time, have 

? 

ou heard from any source, 

::lother than the media - let’s exclude or the moment 

t 4 1 newspapers, the television - an official or unofficial 

(51 reason wh 

(61 x 

she was Y transferred. 

!‘I Q 

[ 9 1 newspapers or seen on 

What has Steven Pape told you? 

He - I don’t even know how we got on the subject. 

izi;But with -when all this first came out in the press, a lot 

[ 2 3 1 of people had started talking, and he did say that he had 

[Z 4 1 seen her come in through the West Wing, or through the 

tzs]Southwest Gate to go to the West Wing while he was on shift. 

XMAX(313) 

Page 17 

Q Dtd he describe anything further about who escorted 

: !.ls. Lewinsky rn!o - 

A He did sav - 

Aa 

- the West Wing7 

Q 

- Make McCurry had escorted her on occasion 

Drd he say how many times she had come in through 

:.:e Southwest Gate7 

i rtas an 

I don’t remember spectfically. I don’t !hlnk It 

11~ -emem 

more than one or two, but I don’t -- offhand. I don’t 

1~~ gA er. 

i. 

t-- Q 

1 :I ~CIU thus after - 

And I believe you mentioned that Officer Papa told 

(13 

[12 Aa correcc - the Monrca Lewrnsky story became public? 

Ii: A Rght. 

Q Did he describe when the occurrences took place in 

I:‘_which Ms.;ewinsk was escorted? 

I?!’ No, r don’t remember offhand. 

113: Q Did you understand him to mean that that had taken 

I: c place before the story became public in -- 

[2:- 

c2:: Aa Yes. - January Oh, yes. of 1998? 

[22- A Yes. 

t24: - Q Have you heard anything that pertains to Ms. 

[ 2 5 Lewinsky from Off&r Michael Rice? 

Page 18 

[:- A The on 

rzjthere was -when the x 

thing I recall hearing from Mike was that 

13: one of the peo 

atronal Enquirer story came out, that 

[ 4 : Schiff, had ha 8 

le that worked over in the West Wing, Debbi 

15: I think it said, 

the Enquirer article signed by the President. 

ou 

t6:think he said t Y; 

were smeared with the best of us. I 

at rt was written on there. 

17: Q Now, when you sa the National Enquirer article. do 

t s :you mean the artide - well, wh 

f:IiEnquirer. 

A 

4 &n’t you explain to - 

There was an a rcle that was tn the National 

11: Q 

I::: 

A And on the fron of d 

us specifically whatpu mean? 

ebbi Schiff had her 

P 

idure on there and she was the West Win 

114:. do recall him saying that she had showed 8. 

receptionist. And 

rm that she had 

[16:youve been smeared wi!h the best of us. 

[ls:R srgned, autographed b the President. And it just said, 

[17] Q And the President had written that? 

[la; A Yes. 

I19i Q With his autograph? 

t201 A Yes. We all joked around about getting it signed. 

1211 u know; oh, let’s get it signed while we’re over there. 

1221 Et she drd get it signed. 

(231 

2 

i::jpmviously been assigned over there that 

~~~~a?$a?~a&i~ned over there or 

new Debbi. We 

Page 19 

[ 1 $hd around about havi 

Q And that’s “t, 

her autograph it. 

[:l]in the West Win 

e Uniformed Division officers working 

near where - 

[41 

151 Aa gt$i works in the - isi 

171 

,!3, 

A Correct. 

- West Wing reception area? 

2 Correct L-1 

Q 

1 :ii of that article herself? 

Do you know whether Debbi Schiff signed any 

A I think she signed Officer Seubert Chris 

I :: !.Seubert’s. I didn’t see it. He just said that she had 

rlajsigned it. 

[I41 Q Could ou s II his last name for us? 

[ISI A S-E-U-&-E-K)-eT. 

[:76l)yourself? 

Q You said you hadn’t seen that article signed b) 

[ISI A 

[ 19 j taking a cop 

No, I did&t actually see it. He said he was 

ned. And then later on 

tzolin the day w x 

over there to get it s‘ 

i! 

Q 

en I seen him, he sa she did sign it. 

[211 Okay. Do you know Bayani Nelvis? 

122i A Yes. 

copies 

f her 

Page 14 to Page 19 
4461 

i3s.A Sandra Verna, 6/l 1198 

Page 20 

: : out there. So you ended up lust talkrng to the stewards, and 

:‘ I talked to hrm usually whenever we were workrnq over there 

XMAX(L‘) 

Page 23 

!: A Can you repeat? It’s pretty much what I just told 

[I you 

‘: Q Were there any other occasions on which you talked 

I : with Bayanr Nelvrs about Eayanr Nelvrs speakrng wrth Monrca 

Lewrnsky on the phone? 

:; 

I but I don’t! nothrn 

I remember that one - maybe one or two 

that stands out. other than I had 

rncrdents. 

: 5 talked to Monica. iothing 

‘A Q Did he ever tell you about any gifts that he had 

I i : :recerved from Monica Lewinsk ? 

I::. He did say that Y, e got a he 

[ : : i Do you recall when he told you that? 

[!i A I thank it was, It was for his birthday. It was 

( :: ,sho?ly after his brrthday. and I remember hrm saying, oh, 

[ 15 ! this IS the he that Monica got. 

,lbl Q So, when he told you this, he was wearing it? 

[Ii; A Yeah. 

[19! Q And he showed it to you? 

[I91 A Uh-huh. And I remember Monica saying, when she 

1201walked by. she said, oh, that’s the tie I ot hrm. But as 

~3: lfor dates, hme, I don’t remember that. P. 

tz 2 ! her saying that that was the tie. 

just do remember 

t231 Q Did she walk by and point that out at approximately 

[z 4 1 the same trme as he showed you the tie, or dtd those events 

{ :5 1 happen on two different occasions? 

0 - ‘move around within a limited area? Is that - 

i14j be, you know, each time I was on p&t, or if he was there for 

:?5]just a short while. We always talked when I was on post. 

Page 21 

(3 And you were on that post for about a year I 

:ii believe you mentioned earlier, between September of 199b and 

: 3 ; October ofAl 996? 

I41 

[51 Cl !%h;air to say then that most of the time that 

! 6 1 you were posted at those locations you had occasion to speak 

:7 1 with him? 

;s; A Uh-huh. 

!9l Cl How, well do you know him after now speaking with 

! i.3 1 him on thor occasrons? 

.._, ..A. 

: 13 : we are really 

I’d say he’s a work acquatntance. I wouldn’t say 

4 

ood friends. I mean, we’ve talked about 

[ 13: family and all hat. But outside of the job, I really didn’t 

(:a : know that much outside of the job. 

[15! 0 What kinds of matter did you usually talk about 

r161with Mr. Nelvis? 

Page 22 

[ 1 I he had talked to her or seen her or said hello, because we 

rzlall kind of talked. Whenever we had seen each other. we all 

ijjtalked and, yeah, I’m sure I did. You know, I know I asked 

[ 4 ] him if he’s talked to her or seen her. 

r51 Q 

[ 6 1 occasions? 

Do you recall what he responded on any of those 

(30 jremember the day. 

! 2 11 after she was 

I don’t remember - I just know after, 

;zzlshe had calle 8 

one, 

But. 

I do remember being there one day when 

i_‘31 Q Do you remember on any other occasions Mr. Nelvis 

t? 4 ] telling you, or discussin with him the fact that he had 

[ 2s 1 spoken wrth Monica on 9 he phone? 

Page 24 

III A 

[z ! same day. 

No, it was robably the same, it was probably the 

I mean, I don *P recall speufically. but I’m sure 

[ 3 1 the day he showed me the tie was when he got it, and she 

,4 1 probablv came bv. 

(51 . Q 

[bitheThat would have been before she was transferred to 

[‘I A Oh, yeah. 

Is! 

i9i A Q Yeah. - Pentaaon? I now It was before I got m birthday 

r to 1 So, his birthday had to be sometime between 

r~~:December But. 

Sep Y ! 

ift. 

ember an 

[l:j Q Did Mr. Nelvis ever tell you about any gifls 

I 13; exchanged between Monica Lewinsk and the Presrdent? 

1141 A I don’t - I don’t recall f? el saying anything. I 

[ :s] know Monica said she did 

[I 61 his birthday or Christmas, 9 or the President. But I don’t 

et him a tie for, I think It was 

[ i 7 1 remember T I don’t remember specifically what occasion it 

[ 18 1 was. But I just know she said that she had gotten him a tie. 

[I 9 1 And I don’t remember the occasion. 

I201 And the only reason I remember that is because like 

tz 11 another day in passing she said that was the tie. But I 

tzzjdon’t remember what It looked like. I don’t 

1231 Q Was there ever a oint at which Mr. Nelvis said to 

[ 2 4 1 ou something along the lines of 

[zs] Y he President a tie - 

RI oruca Lewinsky also gave 

Page 25 

t11 A 

121 Q 

No, I don’t - 

-just like she gave me one? 

t31 A No, I don’t remember Nel -the 

t4 1 similar des. ns. but I don’t, I don’t remember. 

P 

r 

could have been 

s what you 

r51- like they ooked alike? Is that the way you were phrasing 

re~that. or? 

I71 Q, Well, I don’t really mean to imply anything by 

ts 1 that. Just did he ever suggest to you that Monrca had grven 

[ 9 1 the President any gifts? 

[lOI A 

: 11 I

e 

I don’t remember him specifically sa ing Monica 

ot him a he. I remember more so Monica saying, Y I. 

: 12 1 re, versus Nel. 

got hum a 

I131 Q Did Bayani Nelvis ever tell you that he had seen 

[ 14 IMonica Lewinskv outsrde the White House? 

I151 A I think he ran into her on a trip. I’m not sure 

[ 161 I think - I don’t remember the tri I know that he said 

I 17 1 that he was out on a trip and ha a run into here But I don’t 

I 18) remember, I don’t know where the location was. I don’t 

j 19: travel and I’m not one to follow up on the trips, you know, 

I 20 I that - a lot of guys when t,hey travel. they’re like. ,you 

12 11 know, oh, there s a !np loin? to Lp or there s a trap going 

rzzlhere orthere. I dont o ow he trips. 

t231 So, when he said he was out on a tn 

P8 

I didn’t 

~24 Iremember r&in 

[:s 1 that he ha B 9, 

up the location but I do reca I him saying 

seen er out on a detail. They stayed in the 

Page 20 to Page 25 OlC-Starr 
4462 

q SA Sandra Vema, 6/l 1198 XMAX(5:51 

Page 26 Page 29 

: j same hotel but she was asslgned -- that was with her new 

2 job. She *gs assigned there with her new job. 

> Now when you refer to trips, these are offrclal 

I i traps? 

- 

!_; 

._ 

i ~%%~~~b~“~~‘~~f% detail”, that means? 

Out on a detatl WI h ha ob as a steward. 

Q So, this was a trip that e had taken in hrs 

: i’capacity as a Presrdentrai steward? 

,,-: 

,- A Correct. 

!I:! Q Was the Presrdent also along on that trip? 

! ::. A I believe so. 

:13: Q 

I1Ji A 

And he told you that he had seen Monrca - 

He had seen Monica. 

:5i Q -- 

[lsjplace? 

on that trip? And she had also gone to the same 

[17i A 

l13i Q 

Ri ht. with her job that she, was at. 

1191 A 

ssa that at her Pentagon job? 

I’01 0 

A 

Dtd he say whether he had had dinner with her? 

1211 It was either dinner or lunch. Yes, he did. 

l zz 1 Nelvis had dinner with Monica - it was either dinner or 

! 23 : lunch, while the 

2 

were on the trip. 

(24, e you anything more about that - 

[25. 

&thet II 

I:, Wing wheiyou would see her7 

,?I Oh, I don t know I mean, it could be to deltver 

!3’ 

[-iI R 

aperwork. I mean, the 

now why she would, ot 1: 

had offices on both sides. I don’t 

er than the breakfast run. But. 

ii Q That’s on the way to breakfast? 

: ; 

:) ,they can 

Yeah. A lot of trmes I would -- because they have 

down to the Mess and get breakfast in the 

3 ,mornlng. hat’s usually when I would see her rn the morning. 

1711 Q And would rt be necessary to walk by the Oval 

.-I I I Office to qo to breakfast, for someone lake her from the East 

. : 

li:WingT - 

111 A No. But If she was walkrn by and she seen that I 

: 3; was there, she might say hello, or how’s I 9 gorng, running 

II ~downstairs. 

151 BY MR. TRAVERS: 

161 Q You mentioned prevrously that Officer Steven Pape 

17 Itold you about at least one occasion on which Ms. Lewinsky 

IS 1 had come to the Southwest Gate and been escorted by Mike 

I slMcCur0 j~-I ~~ , 

:201 A Uh-huh. 

[211 Q 

ilj?] 

1231 

A 

E;d he describe anything else about that incident? 

Q Have you ever heard any rumors or stories connecte 

124 lwith Monica Lewinsky that have to do with someone finding 

rZ5lstained tissues or towels in - 

Page 27 

Q - occasion? 

I?! A No. 

Q Did Bayani Nelvis ever suggest to you that Monica 

I: jand the Prrrdent had a relationshrp of any krnd? 

[5i No, he did not. 

0 Did he ever tell you anything about Monica and the 

i?” 1 President tatkina to each other on the ohone? 

i3j A No. he did not. 

:9! BY MS. WIRTH: 

0 The business trip that ou -ust testified about 

i :! j that Nelvis toid you that he had run in Y o Mbnica? 

11:; A Uh-huh. 

Q Do ou have any recollection whether that trip was 

j::;abroad or was tt a np wdhrn the U.S.? {_ 

A That I don’t recall. Like I said I didn’t follow 

i: z i the trips because I don’t travel, and I didn’t think - I 

[ 17 I didn’t ask. 

r~~levervdav work. 

Page 28 

A 

i:!would be like 

It was robabl any of the posts that I was at. It 

131 how are you dYoing y$ know! 

ou wal rng by he receptionist out here; hi, 

Q Geierally where would you run into her? Where 

I :j would she be coming from and 

A When I first met ?l 

oing to if you know? 

er she’was there - I believe 

i;ishe started out as a volunteer, and’then there was the 

tslgovernment shutdown, and then she worked in Leon Panetta’s 

rsloffice. So I’d see her walkina back and forth. She would 

i 3 11 would see her, she was Working - do you know where in ttie 

~23 IWhite House her ‘ob was located? 

I::iin Legistat$e Affairs. 

I &ink when she went over to lhe East Wrng she was 

I251 Q Do you know for what reason she was in the West 

Page 0 

!11 A No, I did not. 

!?I 

I31 2 Uhn-uh. 

-the vicimty of the Oval Office? 

Q Have 

i:l]Officer a rumor that 

ou ever heard from another Secret Service 

Fx onrca Lewinsky was having a 

(6 1 relationship with the President? 

!71 A No, I did not. 

!31 MR. TRAVERS: I think that’s all we have then. 

191 (Whereupon, at lo:46 a.m.. the proceedings were 

[ I o I concluded.) 

,.-> f.... 

CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER - NOTARY PUBL 

I, Elizabeth A. Eastman, the officer before whom 

I [251 

THt 

Old-Starr Page 26 to Page 0 
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lN RE: 

3rd ‘ Constltutlcn, Y.Y. 

ra*hington, D-C. 20001 

T”.Sda)r, July 21. ,999 

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seprmber 19, 1997, -nciap .r_ 11:30 ..I&., betort: 

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in re: Grand Jury Promdings Multi-Pagem Tue=lq, July 2 1,1998 

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you. I’m going to briefly review those now. 

A Okay. 

Q First of all, you, as you’re probably aware, have 

the right to counsel. While YOU don’t have the right to have 

counsel here in the grand jury room with you, you do have the 

right to stop the proceedings if you need to and step outside 

and consult with your attorney. Do you understand that, 

lIKJ’i%ll? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q Do you have an attorney here today? 

A Yes. Mike Leibig. 

Q. Any other counsel hem on your behalf today? 

A The Secret Service attorneys, Matt Dates and Tom 

Dougherty. 

Q- Any otbers? 

A Anne Wiseman from Justice Department is here also. 

Q Any others? 

A No. 

Q Okay. Let us know if you need to stop at any time. 

A Okay. 

Q You also have a right against self-incrimination. 

In other words, if the truthful answer to a question would 

tend to incriminate you, you have the right not to answer the 

question. Do you understand that, ma’am? 

A Yes, sir. 

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Pq 

PROCEEDINGS 

Whereupon, 

SANDRA J. VERNA 

wascalledasawitnessand,afterhavingbeenfirstduly 

worn by the Forepzson of the Grand Jury, was examined 

testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION 

BY MR. SUSANIN: 

Q Ms. Vema, if you could please be seated and state 

your name and spell your last name for the record, ma’am. 

A Sandra J. Verna, V as in Victor, er-n-a. 

Q Ms. Vema, my name is Timothy Susanin. I’m an 

Associate Independent Counsel with the OfEce of Indepen 

Counsel and this is a grand jury that’s been empaneled by 

a United States district judge bere in the District of 

Columbia to investigate possible obstruction of justice 

charges on the part of Monica lewinsky and others in the 

case of Jones v. Clinton. Do you understand that, ma’arn? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q And do you recall that you gave a deposition in 

lieu of grand jury testimony in tbis matter on June 1 ltb of 

this year, 1998? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q Ms. Vema, at the outset of that deposition, the 

prosecutor reviewed some rights and responsibilities with 

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Q Ialsowishtotellyouthat~aswellasmy 

colleagues from tbe Indepeudent Counsel’s office here today 

aswellasthegrandjurorsareboundbyanoathofseaecy 

tonotrevealthemattnsthattakeplacehaethismoming. 

Do you understand that? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q You, how&r, are not so bound by an oath of 

secrecy. Do you understand that? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q You also are testifying under oath today and have a 

responsibility to tell tbe truth. Do you understand that, 

ma’am? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q And lastly, although depending on your previous 

answers this shouldn’t be a problem, we ask you to please 

give a verbal answer so the court reporter can bear your 

response. 

A Yes, sir. . 

Q Ms. Vema, you are an officer with the uniformed 

division of the United States Secret Service. Is that 

correct? 

A Yes. - - 

Q And from September of 1995 until October of 1996, 

you worked at the White House. Is that right, ma’am? 

A Yes. Let me just double check. I’ve been at t& 
In rc: Grand Jury Proceedings Ml&i-PagCrw Tuesday, July 21,1998 

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White House the whole entire time I’ve been there. 

Q Let me ask that a little bit more specifically, 

then. From the dates I just mentioned, that is, September of 

x-1 

A Yes. 

Q Would that be right? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q And during the course of that assignment that you 

had from September of ‘95 to October of ‘96, you had the 

occasion to meet and to get to know Ms. Monica Lewinsky. 

Is that right? 

A Yes, sir. Yes. 

Q And did there come a time that Ms. Lewinsky was 

transferred from the white House to-the Pentagon? 

A Yes. 

Q Can you tell the grand jurors, Ms. Vema, whether 

you heard any officer of the Secret Service discuss the 

reason for the transfer? 

A ‘There had been rumors, nothing specific told to me 

by anybody, but I believe it was on Easter Sun&y, they 

said that on the afternoon shift on Easter Sunday that 

Ms. Lewinsky had brought over -- I don’t know if she brough 

over papers or what she brought over to the Oval Office, went 

inside, the ofIkxr on post, John Musket& told me that while 

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bc was standing the, it was not unusual for the While House 

to call tk post if tk Rsident didn’t answer the phone and 

k said tk phone rang, you know. they knocked on the door, 

tbacwaSn0ansWer. 

My unckrstanding, he said that the opaator calkd 

Harold I&es’ offi and be came down. mt into tk Oval 

Off& came out and a coupk of minutes later Monica came 

out and walk4 down tbz hallway. But I was not working that 

shift, so I can’t - it. 

Q So you wctc not working on Easter Sunday. 

A No. No, I was not. 

Q During the incident you just dcscribal. 

A Right. 

Q Let me back up and ask you a few questions. a few 

follow-up questions about what you just dcscribal. 

You said that you +rd rumors, but not anything 

spccitic. 

A I beard about it from tbc officer &at was working 

that post. 

Q Okay. And is that Oftiim John Musk&t? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you bear about tbc incident from anyone else? 

A Not that I can recall spozifically. We all passed 

it along to each o&r on post because it was a pamamnt 

assignment just in cast somebody had asked about it so that 

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Page 7 

we would all know about it, but I heard that directly from 

him the next day. 

Q So is it fair to say he told YOU about the incident 

and that’s separate from you and the others on that post I 

discussing the incident. 

A Right. Yes, sir. 

Q Do you remember anyone with whom you discussed tb 

incident after Officer Muskett told you? 

A Probably passing it on to maybe another post 

off&r, but I don’t remember anyone specific that I would 

have said that to. 

Q Do you know if you would have told that to your 

post partners at that time? 

A Probably. I don’t -- I don’t recall specilically 

passing it on to anybody, I just remember him telling me. 

.Q Okay. Can I at least ask you then who your 

partners were? Who you worked with on that post at that 

time? 

A The majority of the time I was partners with John 

Gerena. He’s assigned to the Foreign Missions Branch now. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q How do you spell his last name? 

A G-e-r-e-n-a. And at the time, there were post 

changes but he specifically was my partner the majority of 

tbctimc. -_ 

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BY MR. SUSANIN: 

Page a 

Q Letmeaskyou,doyounxallhowkmgafter 

this Easter Sunday incident officer Muskett told you about 

it? 

A It was probably the next day. I told him, you 

know,whenhewaaschedulcforthepost#Isaid,”Ol& 

nothi.ng’s going to happen on Easter Sunday.” I said. “Go 

aheadrmdworkthepost.” Becausehehadn’tworkaiit 

bcf~sothatwas~yhespaificalytoldmetheaurtday, 

you know, This is what happened.” 

Q Do you recall where you were when Officer Muskett 

told you about the incident? 

A No, not offhand. 

Q Wenzthehvoofyoualone? 

A Probably. It was probably bcfom work, befom rolI 

call. 

Q Doyourccallifanyoacelsewasnearbywhcnhe 

told you about the incident? 

A Idon’t rcmemberoffhand. 

Q DoyourecallwhatyournsponsetoOfIiazrMuskett 

was? Did you say anything to him about the incident? 

A No, we probably joked~irbout~it. I don’t rcmmbcr a 

specific response. 

Q Let me back up and talk about the incident itself, 

Ms. Vema. You said that this took place Easter Sun&y_ 

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Would that k Easter of tk same spring wbcn Ms. Lcwinslcy was 

vansfuKd to the Paltagon? 

A Yes. Sk was transferred probably like a w&k 

latu. A wak or so bcr. 

Q Okay. So does it sound accurate to you that this 

took pkcc around Easter of 1996? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q Do you have an indcpcndcnt rccollcction that it was 

1996? 

A Iwouldassumc. Iwasstillassignaltbm. And, 

WrcIsaid.Idon’tkvcthcaactdalcthatskwas 

hmsfanxl, but it was probably within a w&k. week and 

a hslf, of kr king transferred. 

Q With tire incident coming before kr trausfu. 

A Comt. 

Q And with tqqrcl to tk incident itself about which 

Off&r Muskctt told you, did k tell you who k was - let 

mc back up. Wkt was k doiug at tk Oval Of&e on Elastcr 

sunday. offKx!r Musltett? 

A-- 

Q Anddidktellyouwktbrxkwasworkingby 

Ii.msdf or with anyone else? 

A He was probably with somebody else, but I don’t 

know who tbat was. 

Q And was that because k didn’t tell you or because 

Page I( 

1 you don’t rcmanbcr if k told you? 

2 A I don’t rum&r if k told me. 

3 Q Andyoutoldtkladksand~tlaxnoftkgrand 

4 jury thst Ms. Lcwinsky on tbat Easta Sunday anivai at tk 

5 Oval Office with papus, I believe? 

6 A Yes. ItbinktktwastkwaytbatIkclkardit. 

7 Sk brought something over, said sk had some&lug for tk 

8 Resicknt. 

9 My unhtanding, I don’t know if sk knockal on 

10 the dcor or whatever. but somcbow sk cndal up going into tk 

11 Oval Offkc. And it’s not unusual on a ticnd wko tk 

12 sccnztarhl staff isn’t tkrq if tk P&dent doesn’t 

I3 answer tk pbouc, tbc White House operator does call tbc post 

14 phone and say, “I have m important phone call for him. could 

I5 you just knock on tk door?” 

16 Q LetmcgdtothatphonccaUinjustaminutc. 

17 Did Df’ftccr Muskctt tell you wluc tk Pnzsidcnt was at tk 

18 tiaxMs.Lcwinskyar7ivcsontkscax? 

19 A No. No. 

20 Q Did Officer Muskctt tell you wklh k kt 

2 1 Ms. hfinsky into tk Oval Oft&? 

22 A I don’t xmanbcr him spcciftcally saying “I opahxl 

23 tk door.” You’d kvc to ask him. 1 don’t raxll 

24 specifically. 

1 25 Q Without specifics. did k give YOU tbc impassion 

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that at some point his. Lewinsky after arriving with t;r 

papers went mo the Oval Office? 

A Yes. 

Q And do you know sequentially whether that hz;;Fed 

before the phone call that we’re talking about? 

A Yes. Based oh the way I heard it, yes, she W~II: XI 

before the telephone call. 

Q Let me! ask you aboUt the reference you iust ma& to 

A Right. %-hmm. - 

Q So as you’re looking at that main door, the 

entrance to E%&y Currie’s ofice. would be to your left? 

Isthatri@? 

A- correU_ 

Q And the pantry door to the hallway would be to your 

Ii&t? Is that correct? 

A Right. ti-hnttn. 

Q Now, as you’re standing looking at the main door, 

where is the post telephone? 

A Here’s the main door, off to the side is a 

little -- a little aedaua thing in the post, so the phone 

sitsrightthereontkt. 

Q Is that a little table when you say credenza? 

A Yes. Yes. 

Page 12 

Q A little phone table? 

A Yes. Ithaddmvenonit. 

Q Andisthattotherightoftkdoor? 

A Totkrightofthedoor. 

Q I’mgoingtoaskjustforthesakeofaclean 

reeordhetetbat~~sumthatwe&tl’tspeakattk 

sametime. 1mightbctEtmpIingyourLines,youmi@tbe 

CramplingmigbutId’s-ifywcouldjustwait~til 

I finish the question and I’II try not to do that to you. 

A &&mm. 

Q llmnks. Is the table that the telephone is on on 

tlxwallthattbzdoorisin? 

A It’sonthesamewall,justafewinchesfromtht 

wall. Just - it’s there. 

Q Okay. In other words, it’s not on the wall across 

from the doorway. 

A UP-uh. 

Q It’s not on the other side of the hallway, is that 

right? 

A Right. 

Q It’s on the same side of the hallway as the Oval 

Oflice door. -_ _ 

A Yes, sir. . 

Q Okay. And did Officer Muskett tell you who 

i anwered the phone u-hen it rang? _~ 
s 

4466 

In re: Grand Juw Proceedhs Multi-Pagem Tuesday, July 2 l,1998 

I 

I A I believe he did. 

2 Q And could you tell us again who was on tbc phone? 

3 A The White House operator. 

4 Q And telI us again what sbe said to whocvcr 

5 anWcred 

6 A I believe sk said she had a call for the President 

I and bc hadn’t answcrcd. But. like I said, you’d have to ask 

8 him bozausc he took the call. 

9 Q I understand this is just based on what - 

0 A Right. 

1 Q -- was passed on to you. And based on what was 

2 passed on to you. what bappa~s aftcx the operator says, 

3 “I’ve got a call for the President’? 

4 A My understanding is that they knocked on the door, 

5 tkre was no answa or no response - 

6 Q Let me interrupt you again. That would bc tbz main 

7 Oval Office door that we’re talking about? 

8 A Right. And then they just hung up. Normally, when 

9 sk calls the post like that. she’ll tell you there’s a phone 

0 call, you knock on the door, and sk axis up hanging up 

1 anyway and then rings tbz other pbone again. So when they 

2 knocked on the door, the. was no answer. 

3 Q And what happened next. as it was relaw to you? 

4 A The way it was relayed to me was within the next 

5 couple of minutes Harold Iclces came walking down tk hallway 

Pqe 13 

Page 14 

I and instead of going in the main Oval Office door, he went in 1 

2 through Betty Currie’s door and went into the Oval Office 2 

3 thatway. 3 

4 Q Anddidheconxfromthedixection-ashe’s 4 

5 coming down the hallway, did he come from the direction of 5 

6 Betty Currie’s office or did he come from the other dire&on 6 

7 which would be the end that the pantry’s on? 7 

8 A From the other direction. 8 

9 Q Which? 9 

0 A The side of the pantry. He was coming from his 0 

1 ofke. 1 

2 Q And why did he go into the Oval Office suite? 2 

3 Did Off&r Muskett tell you? 3 

I A No. I don’t recall him specifically saying why he 4 

5 went in there, but I think it was because the operator called 5 

5 him for the phone call. 6 

7 Q And when you say the operator called “him” -- 7 

3 A Called Harold Ickes. B 

9 Q You mean the operator called Harold Ickes. 9 

1 A Right. And said he didn’t answer. 3 

I Q And what happens after Harold Ickes walks in I 

z through Betty Currie’s door? 2 

1 A My understanding is he just was in there for a.few 3 

4 minutes and then came out, walked back down the hallway Q 

s towards his office and then a couple of minutes later Monica 5 

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came out. I don’t know which door she came out, but they 

said she GEE out of the office. 

Q Oka:,. So Officer Muskett told you a few minutes 

after Ickes comes back out and walks down the hall, Momca 

comes out of the Oval Office suite. 

A @hT. 

Q And Officer Muskett didn’t tell you which door. 

A No, 1 don’t recall him saying which door. 

Q Now, did Officer Muskett tell you whether he 

followed Mr. Ickes into the Oval Office suite? 

A No. 1 don’t think he did. 

Q Okay. Did he give you the impassion whether he 

followed Mr. Ickes into the suite or whether he waited in the 

hallway? 

A He would have stayed in the hallway. 

Q Is that the impression you had from the story? 

A Oh, yes. That’s his post. He would have stayed 

out there. 

Q Did Officer Muskett tell you whether he had any 

conversaticns with Mr. Ickes about what happened in the time 

Mr. Ickes was ins& the Oval Office suite? 

A No. 

Q Did Officer Muskett tell you what he thought 

Mr. Ickes might have seen while he was in the Oval OFfice 

._ suite? 

Pqe 15 

A No. 

Page lc 

Q Lztmeaskyou,Ms.Vema,inack%tiontothis 

incident, did you bear from any other Unitai States !&xet 

Service offi about any other incident involving 

Ms. Lvinsky and the R&&t? 

A ~was&xtorth~gateincidentwhcrcshtwiis 

&layedcaDlinginthenorthwestgate. Idon’tknowthedate 

ofthat,Ijust remembergeneral-oh,w. I’msorry. From 

Brent Chinery, I talked to Bnmt Chinexy, but I don’t 

remember tlk2 day. 

She appanmtly showed up at the northwest gate, 

said she had an appointment. She didn’t have an appointmen 

Theytoldhatousetheoutsidephonetocall. Idon’tknow 

where she call4 if it was Ektty currie’s office, I don’t 

lcnow~~calledfromthatpoinfbutxjustknowtbcrc 

wasabigfiascooutrbcre,thatsbewasddaiaed Butas 

for spe&cs, I don’t know specifics. 

Q Okay. Letmebackupandaskyoyyouwenz 

transferred from the West Wing to the assisiglt and 

scheduling office in October of 1996. Is that? 

A Yes,sir. 

Q Can you tell the grand#rors-whefhcr you & 

whether this northwest gate incident that you just spoke 

about happaxd before you transfenzd in October of ‘96 from 

the West U-* or after? 
4467 

In rc: Grand Jury Proceedings 

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Multi-Pagem Tuesday, July 21, 199E 

Page 17 Page IS 

1 A It was probably after. 1 Q Did he tell you what MS. Lewinsky’s demeanor was 

2 Q And why do YOU BY that? What makes you think it 2 during this incident where she’s at the northwest gate? 

3 was probably after? 3 A Not offhand. No. 

4 A Because r- I’m trying to think. I was still there 4 Q Did he tell you whether she was detained at the 

5 after she left, about a week and a half after Easter. I 5 northwest gate as a result of these phone calls back and 

6 don’t recall anything happening the time that I was still 6 forth? 

7there. 7 A I know she was detained, but I don’t know for how 

8 It had to be q-because I don’t 8 long. 

9 remember anything specific because I would have heard about 9 Q Did Mr. Chinery give you the impression that it was 

10 it more so working over there than just in the office. 10 for a matter of minutes or a relatively lengthier amount of 

11 Q Ms.Vcma,whenyousayithadtobeafteryou I1 timettlatsbewasdetaine!d? 

12 transferred~doyoumeanbythatithadtobeafta I12 A I’d say it was probably lengthy, but I don’t know 

13 you transferred out of the West Wing in October of ‘96? 13 how long. 

14 A Yes,sir. ~14 Q And how did Mr. Chincry know about ber being 

15 Q And you said that Brett Chinery told you this 15 deta&d at the northwest gate? 

16 incident? 16 A The post officers, I believe, called his post. 

17 A Brent Chinery. 17 You’d have to ask him. I don’t recall who made the calls or 

18 Q Brent? Is that B-r-e-n-t? 18 when, based on him telling me the situation, but I just know 

19 A Yes, sir. 19 there was an incident at the northwest gate. 

20 Q Can you spell the last name for the court reporter? 20 Q Ms. Vema, what was the context in which Off&r 

21 A C-h-i-n-e-r-y. 21 Chinery told you this incident? 

22 Q And is that another Secret Service officer? 22 A ‘IheyallknewthatItalkedtoMonicawhensbewas 

23 A Yes, sir. 23 over in the West Wing, so I think it was more or less like, 

24 Q Is Mr. Chinery also in the uniformed division? 24 you know, she got delayed at the gate, it was a big same 

25 A Yes, sir. 25 kind of thing, more so than spreading gossip or anything. 

1 Q What wax you when he told you about this 

2 incidcot? Do you xcall? 

3 A 

4 I don’t Kmallba specifically. 

i5 oi6 A 

,:; 

9 Q10 A 

13 Q14 A Mm-bmxn. 

-;_ 

Page 18 Page 2C 

1 l%eyallknewthatItalkedtoher. 

2 Q And that’s because you were somewhat friendly with 

3 hex? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q DidbeteIlyouwhetheraspartofthebigscene 

6 thatresultedf~fhiSincidenttheResidentwasinrmyway 

7 involved in the incident? 

8 A Now, I don’t know spezificalIy for m hecause I 

9 wasn’t there, but my understanding was that two of our 

10 officials were called in to the Oval Office to meet with the 

11 president, but I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s true, I 

12 don’t know for certain. 

13 Q And when you say that that was your understanding, 

14 where did you get that understanding from? 

15 Q Was aoyone else with you wkn Mr. Chinay told you 

16 about this incident? 

17 A I don’t recall. 

18 Q And wbm k told you about this incidcnf. k told 

19 you tbat Ms. Lewinsky was calling to get into tk White House 

120 from the northwest gate? 

15 A From Brent. 

16 Q And do you know who those two officials were? 

17 A I believe it was Sergeant Keith Williams and 

18 Captain Purdie, Jeff Purdie. 

19 Q Did Off&r Chinery tell you what the upshot of 

I20 that meeting was? 

A No. He just -- you know, oh, they got called in 

22 and got in trouble, but nothing more specific than that. 

Q Did Officer Chinery tell you what those two 

24 officials said to the President? 

A No. 
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1 So then Betty went back in and then Nancy Hmzch 

2 came out and pretty much said the same thing, “There’s 

3 nothing that I can do.” And then they started to walk a~?:, 

4 like they were going to exit. 

5 BY MS. V.TRTH: 

6 Q When you said they started to walk away, who &f 

A Nancy Hcmrcich and Monica. 

BY MR. SUSANIN: 

Q Ms. Verna, did you hear about any other incidents 

involving Ms. Lcwinsky in the West Wing from any 0th~ 

off&rs of the Secret Service? 

A Not that I can recall offhand. 

Q When you testified at your deposition on June 1 lth, 

you were asked whether you heard any rumors about a 

relationship between Ms. Lewinsky and the President and yet 

said no, you had not. Do you recall that testimony7 

A That I had not? 

Q Correct. 

4468 

In re: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Pagem Tues@, July 21,1998 

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A No. Not that I can recall. 

Q I want to double back now to the incident that 

Officer Muskett told you about on Easter Sun&y and ask yol 

the same question. Did anyone other than Officer Muskett 

tclI you about that incident? 

A NotthatIcanrecaIl. 

Q At your deposition, Ms. Verna, on June 1 Ith of this 

year, you testified about observing Ms. Lewinsky crying. 

A Mm-hmm. 

Q Upon finding out that she was going to be 

transferred out of the White House Is that correct? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q What’s your rceollcction as to when that happened 

with regard to Easter Sunday? The Easter Sunday incident. 

A It was probably somewhere within that week or .week 

and a half after Easter Sunday. It was shortly thereafter. 

Page 22 

I I mean, I’d say probably no more than a week and a half. 

1 

. Q where was Ms. Lcwinsky when you observed her 

I crying? 

J Aa 

S-and I rcmcmberthattbePresidentwasnottberc,and 

she had wmc down the haIlway, like coming to Betty Cunie’t 5 1 

Off&. 

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Q Is that from the pantry end or from the opposite 

end? 

A No, from the other end. From the opposite end. 

She was coming across -- 

Q I’m sorry. Let me just clarify that for the 

record. From the pantry end or opposite from the pantry? 

A Opposite from the pantry. 

Q Thank you. 

A ShewascomingdownthehaIlwayandshewascrying 

and, you know - I said, ‘What’s wrong?” And she said, 

“I’m being transferred.” And then she went into Betty’s 

1 OfflIce. 

I Betty came out in the hallway and she was talking 

to her just outside of her door, probably maybe like two feet 

! away from her door, and she was crying and I just remember 

1 Betty saying, you know, “Thcrc’s nothing that I can do. 

There’s nothing that I can do. You’ll have to talk to 

: Nancy.” 

Page 2 

Q Did he tell you or give you the gist of what the 

President may have said to them? 

A No. 

Q Did he tell you whether anyone else in the Oval 

Ofkz suite including Beny Currie or others was on the 

scene during this meeting? 

A No. 

Q Did anyone else tell you about this incident other 

than Mr. Chinciy? 

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A No,Irecallsayingt.hatIhadheardagencml 

nunorthatshehadbceninthemovictheaterwitbthe 

~dentoverintheEastWingandIaskcdbaaboutthat 

justbecausewhentheClinton.sfimcatnein,Ibelieve, 

Friday or Saturday nights they’d take 30 or so people and 

they’d go watch a movie and I recall saying to her, “Were 

you in the movie theater wit&_&e President?” 

I 

Page 22 

I AndshcsaidherofficeintheEastWing:~like 

! catty_coracrtowhcrethe~wasandwbmthePrcsident 

s 

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wcnttouscthc tesbmm,hewhamdberfriendova 

thereandcameoverandsaidbAloandtalkaitokra.nd 

that’s what she told me happezd But as for anything ck 

involving the Pmsideut, no. IJnIess I’m just misinterpre&ng 

the question. 

Q Well, let me show you a copy of your deposition 

from June 30th and ask you to look at page 30, line - 

A Okay. Here it is. Havingarelation&ipwith - 

Q Letmejustgettbcquutionoutsowccankupe 

cle.annxord. I’mgoingtoaskyoutomadlines4to7out 

loud if you could 

A Okay. “Have you ever beard from other Secret 

ServictoffLxrsannnortbatMticaLminskywashavings 

relationship with the Prcsidcnt? “No, I did not.’ 

Q Andbythattime,youhadalreadytest5eddinthe 

deposition about the movie theater incident, is that contd? 

A Right. Right. 1 was just mixing up the +ie%kms, 

that was my misunderstanding. 

Q Okay. So at the time you said no in your 

! deposition to that answer that-we just read -- 

I A Right. 

I Q -- did you mean no in addition to the movie 

; theater-- 
4469 

II re: Grand Jury E’mxdings MUll 

Page 2! 

I A Right. Right. 

2 Q- incident you just testified about? 

3 A Yes, sir. Because you hadn’t asked me that, so 1 

4 wantcdtomakesuxethatwasontherecord. 

5 Q Okay. ind at the time you said no t.n bearing any 

6 other rumors, however, you had not testified about the 

7 Offioa Muskett incident in your deposition. Is that right? 

8 A That’s right, sir. 

9 Q And can you explain why that is? 

0 A &cause that fell under privileged informatioR~ 

1 MR. SUSANIN: Thank you, Ms. Vema Let me see il 

2 my e&agues have questions. 

3 THE WITNESS: Okay. 

4 MS. WIRTH: I have some. 

5 MR. WISENBERG: I have a few. 

6 MS. WIRTH: Do you want to go first? 

7 MR. WISENBERG: You can go first. 

8 MS. WIRTH: Okay. 

9 BY MS. WlRlH: 

0 Q I think you testified that Off&r Muskea told you 

1 about this incident that happened on Easter Sunday the next 

2 day? 

3 A Yes. Irememberittobethenextday. 

4 Q Okay. What was his demeanor Like when he talked to 

5 youabout this? washe - 

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A Well,sa,wknIhadtoldhimtotaketkpost,I 

said, “Oh nothing’s going U, happen.” _‘I 

coming through and tky want m know about tk fumitwlc and 

tknlgsortky’Kznotquiresurewhoshouldbewalking 

around Q who shouldn’t so I said “04 nothing’s going to 

happen on Easter Sunday.” 

So tk next morning, it was WCC “Oh I’m going to 

kill you kxause tk post phone rang. it was tk opaator.” 

And just like little things that k wasn’t sure of as 

routine. 

Q Was k saiously upsu or - 

A No. No. 

Q -justjokingorA No, kwns justjoking. 

Q Okay. AnddoyoukncnvwkrkrJobnMusketttold 

anybody besides you about this incickat’l 

A I don’t know. 

Q Da you know if k rold Officer Bymc about tk 

incident? 

AQ But you don’t know that for sure. 

A I don? know that for sun. I man. I could cwn 

have related it to Gary. I just don’t recall. 

Q Now. you testifial thx John - I tink you said 

Page”” T=dq~ July 21,1998 

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Gerena? 

A kena. 

PL$ ‘7 

Q Was your partner around that time. 

A Right. 

Q Do you know whether John Gerena knows a~-+ti~r,g 

about Monica Lewinsky? 

A I’m sure he knows who she is, but other than that. 

I don’t know. 

Q Did he ever tell you whether he had seen Monica 

Lewinsky in the vicinity of the Oval Office? Or do you knov 

whetkr he has? 

A Probably because she was an intern and &en a 

permanent passholder, so she did have business in the West 

Wi*soI’msumshedid. Ijustknow--Italkedtohcr,so 

I probably paid attention to it more. 

Q Do you know if John Gerena has had any specific 

encounters with Monica Lewinsky? 

A I don’t know offhand 

Q Did he ever discuss whether he had ever seen Monica 

Lewinsky with the President with you? 

A No. 

Q I think just to make tbe record clear, at one 

point wlmz you were discussing what had been told to you 

about the Easter Sunday incident you said something like 

they said that Monica came out a door and you didn ! know 

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Page 28 

which one she came out. 

A Imeant John. 

Q YoumeantJohnbytbewordthey? Sothere-vas 

no one in addition to Mr. Muskett that you spoke tc about 

this? 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

No. Not-&at I tin nxall. 

BY MR. SUSANIN: 

John is Mr. Musket-t? 

Yes. 

And when you said you may have told the Mu&e&t 

incident to Gary, that’s Officer Byrne? 

A Right. 

Q B-y-r-n-c? 

A Mm-hmm. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q Have you had any conversations with Gary Byrne 

about this incident? The John Muskett incident, the Easter 

Sunday incident? 

A probably, but 1 don’t remember specific locat: 3ns 

or times.- 

Q b you remember anybody that you’ve talked 3 about 

the Easter Sunday incidenibesi&s John Mu&en? 

A Well, probably Gary because he was on post. 

Maybe one of the other officers that was there just passing 

it along. but not anyone specific. - 

-- 
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Q Do you remember anything that Gary Byrne said to 

you about this incident? About the Easter Sunday incident? 

A No. 

Q Just to switch topics for a moment, when you were 

talking about the northwest gate incident, you said you had 

heard that two supervisors, Captam Purdie and Sergeant 

Williams, were called up to the Oval Office. 

A bfm-hmm. 

Q And you said something like you heard that they got 

in trouble. 

A Mm-hmrn. 

Q Do You have any more specific information about 

what you mean by that? 

A No. No. Just that, you know, that was the whole 

purpose that they got called in there. I don’t know, maybe 

because she was delayed. I don’t know. 

Q Did you ever hear any specific thing that was said 

to them in the Oval Off& by anybody? 

A No. No. 

MS. WIR-I-H: Thank you. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q It’s Officer Vema, correct? 

A Right. 

Q My name is Sol Wise&erg. I don’t think we’ve met 

_ before. 

4470 

In re: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Pagem Tuesday, July 21, wu 

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Page 3C 

You’ve already talked about the movie theater rumor 

that you had heard and I don’t know if this was previous in 

time to the Easter Sunday event, but did you want to speak to 

that? 

A No,IwasgoingtosayithadtobebeforeEaster 

Sunday. 

Q Okay. So in light of the earlier thing you heard, 

now you’ve heard a story where somebody, a colleague, is 

complaining to you about the active weekend it turned out to 

be, Harold Ickes goes in one door, Monica Lewinsky goes out 

another door, what, if any, speculation was there by you, by 

Officer Muskett, by anybody else, about what had been going 

on? 

A We didn’t speculate. I didn’t see what happened 

behind that door. I mean - she just - my understanding was 

she just came out and I wasn’t going to assume. 

Q Okay. So there was no speculation that you 

witnessed on the matter. 

A No. 

Q Or engaged in yourself. 

A No. 

Q Is that correct? 

A Mm-hmm. 

Q Now, why would he consider this -- well, let me 

rephrase it What did you think when he related this story 

?j 

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to you? 

Page 31 

A I was kind of surprised.. 

Q Okay. And why is that? 

A I don’t know. Just because -- the way she left so 

quickly, I was surprised, but I don’t know what happened tha 

day. I liked Monica. She had never said, “Oh, I’m working a 

weekend and going to the Oval Office” or nothing, so it did 

surprise me, but I wouldn’t say it was totally unusual. 

Somebody is usually around there to answer the telephone on 

the weekend or maybe he nctdtd papm. I was just surprised 

itwasher. 

Q It was unusual enough for Muskett to have kind of 

mentioned it to you as being a more eventful weekend than he 

had planned. Is that a fair statement? 

A That’s a fair statement. I don’t think it was so 

much that it was because of her, it was because of the way -- 

you know, the operator had called and the whole handling of 

the situation. I think if it would have been anybody, I 

think he would have relayed it the same way. 

Q He did say that she left quickly? 

A Yes,bedid. 

Q And do you know if he said - I think you’ve 

spoken to this - do you recalI ifbe said what door she 

left from? 

A I don’t recall if he said-m door. I don’t 

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ranember offhand. 

Page 5, 

Q Didyoubeartbestorycxmxbackinanyway? You 

knowhowsometimessomebo@eanteIIyouastoryaboutan 

eventthatoccurredandthreew&tsIa!cryou’rehearingit 

from - it’s I&e it’s going amund the block and m back 

andyou’vebeardit&omsan&odyelse. Hastbatcva 

bappenedwithrespecttothisstuy? 

A Could have, but I don’t recall specifically. I 

mean, that’s pretty much the rumor mill they alI kind of 

generate through, but I don’t recalI it just specifically, 

bemuse I heard it from John, so I wouldn’t have rcaIIy paid 

attmtiontoifIwashearingitfromsomebodyeLvzbecauseI 

hearditrightfromhim. 

Q With respect to this or my o&r incident 

involving Monica Lcwin&y, has anybody ever said that I&es 

OranybodyelsecameinaadformdMonicawithberbeadon 

the President’s lap? 

A No.Ihadneverhe&rdthat. 

Q Until I’ve just said it right now? 

A Right: 

BY MR. PAGE: 

Q Ms. Vema, my name i&Ed Page. We havm’t w bt 

IworkforKenStarrandI’moneofthelawyersass@edto 

his staff, so I would like to ask you a few questions at this 

time. _. 
4471 

n x-c: Grand Jixy Proceedings Mul 

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Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

John Geffna, where is hc currently assigned? 

He’s assigned to FMB, a truck unit. 

And tell us -- 

The bike patrol. I’m sorry, the bike patrol unit. 

F __ ’ 

M-B. 

M-B? What’s that stand for? 

Foreign Missions Branch. 

Ontbcbikedttail? 

Mm-hmm. 

He’s still a member of the Secret Service? 

Yes, sir. 

Uniformed division? 

Yes. sir. 

I believe I heard you say that you have talked to 

6 Monica IzwinsQ when she worked or was at or in the West 

7 Wing? 

8 A Mm-hmm. 

9 Q Is that conzct? 

0 A Yes, sir. 

1 Q What did you speak with Monica Lewinsky about? 

2 A Pretty much just general things. My children, 

3 my family. She was always saying her mother was trying to 

4 fix her up with blind dates because she said she needed a 

5 boyfriend. She worked late a lot. She passed me every 

Page 3: 

Page 34 

morning when she went to breakfast and we just talked about 

general things. 

Q You also said that you liked Monica 

A Yes. 

Q ~thatamwzt? 

A h-hmm_ 

Q Whywasthat? 

A Because she was nice. She had a nice personality, 

good conversation. She was just nice. You know, a lot of 

times, you see people over in the West Wing and they -- you 

know, don’t even speak or say hello. She always made an 

! effort to say kilo and how’s your day. You know, we’d talk 

I for a couple of minutes each time I saw her. 

4 Q YoualsoatlcastIheardyousaythatyouwere 

5 surprised that it was her regarding the Easter Sunday event. 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Why were you surprised? 

8 A Well, I don’t - she didn’t normally work on a 

9 weekend _. I don’t recall seeing her 

D on a weekend that late. If anything, during the week, her 

I being there on my-shift I remember seeing her, but not 

2 on a weekend. 

3 Q So is it fair to say tit you were surprised 

1 because it was out of the ordinary for Monica Lewinsky to be 

5 in the White House tberc on a weekend, on a Sunday? 

Pagt”” Tuesday, July 21,1998 

3l 

1 A I tbougbt so. On Easter Sunday. yes. 

2 Q YOU said hhkett told YOU that he pot a call from 

3 &e white House operator on this Easter Sunday that w’vc 

4 bozn talking about. 

5 A Mm-bmm. 

6 Q Correzt? 

7 A Yes. sir. 

8 Q Where does that operator work within the White 

9 House? 

0 A To be honest. I don’t know what room she’s in. 

J Q How would sh: or that pason who is tbc opaator a 

2 that day have made tk phone call to Muskett? In other 

3 words, what would bavc bad to have bappcncd first for Muskat 

4 to get a phone call at bis locatiom 

5 A- Sk would bavc tried to ring tbc President at his 

6 dtslrinthcOvalOfilecortbac’saphonc-ben’sthc 

7 Resident’s desk and tbcn’s another desk bebind that has a 

8 phone on it, too. Sk probably tried one of tlx lines and hc 

9 didn’t answer. 

0 Q And wbar prompts bcr or that person to pick up Ux 

1 phone and eaII Muskut? 

2 A Probably just because of location baxusc he’s 

3 right outside tk door. On a wedccnd, usually the 

4 secretarial Staff isn’t there late in the day, it was Easter 

5 Sunday. Just call the post phone. 

Page 35 

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Q I’mtryingtogcfthough,whythcoperator-- 

what happens firs before the operator calls the post phone? 

A I’m surt most of tbe calls for the President go 

througbt.beopcrator,sowhensbegottbecallandskrang 

tbephonesandthcnwasnoanswcr,itmustbavebeenan . 

important phoac_@l, I would assume, so she caUed t& post 

phonesothattbcofficeronpostwouldltnockonthcdoorto 

seeifbecouidgetaresponse,tosaythere’san~~t 

phone call for you she’s trying to get through. 

MR. PAGE: Thank you. 

MR. SUSANIN: Ms. Vema, we’re going to ask you to 

step outside the grand jury room for a moment, please. 

THE WITNESS: Sure. Just wait out here? 

MS. W-II-I: Yes. 

MR. SUSANIN: Please, ma’am. 

(Witness excused. Witness recalled.) 

MR. SUSANTN: Ms. Vema, we are back on tbc reco~( 

with a few questions from the grand jurors that I will tziay 

to you. 

THE WITNESS: Okay. 

BY MR. SUSANIN: 

Q The first question is you made reference to roll 

Cal taking place when you spoke about the _ in the 

Old Executive. Is that roll call procedure documented ITI any 

way? 
In re: Grand JUN Proecedines 

4472 

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A Yes Every morning at 6:30, you anrnd roil call 

They call off the names, go through anything important to 

pass on. It’s a daily procedure. But in my office. we do 

not a-d the roll call because we start a half hour early. 

so it wwuld bavc been probably in tbc scbaiuling office or in 

the hallway. I would not have attended a roll call. 

Q Okay. Do you know if &Q-C are logs. then. kept of 

what happens at roll call? 

A It’s pretty much attendance for the shift to make 

sure that cvcrybody’s there and tkn we bave a briefing book 

that thy read tbrougb each morning. 

Q Du you know for a fact that tbac’s an attendance 

log or are you surmising? 

A No. Wcll.Imcan.tbcyrcadthroughrhcnameson 

the sh&r of evaybody that’s supposed to work and if anybody 

is late or not there, you know, they just call assignments 

and scheduling to see if tbc person maybe called in sick or 

if we made a mistake on sclxduIing. But from that point. 

what tbe sergeants do with it. I don’t know. 

Q Okay. So it sounds lilcc you presume they write 

down who’s absent but you don’t know what’s done with tbat 

log. 

A Right. 

Q Is that fair to say? 

A That’s fair to say. 

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Q who would know? 

A One of the sergeants. 

Q Within what office? 

Page 38 

A Pretty much anybody. You can ask tbe officials, 

t&c watch commanda or somebody more specific with SecaU 

Sewicq but I don’t know offhand. 

Q Let me ask you about the conversation that you said 

you had with Monica the day you saw ha crying. As you 

testifti about it, it saans like it was a brief 

convaxation. 

A It was very brief. 

Q Okay. Is ti anything that you - any follow-up 

questions you asked ha or any additional statements she made 

to you in that conversation that you have not told tbc grand 

jury about? 

A No. Li?_e I said. by the time sbc said “I’m being 

transferred” and tlxn progressal to &nyls ofticc. sbc 

walkal away with Nancy and I did not have a chance to talk to 

bcr that day. 

Q Can you give the grand jurors an idea of how long 

the exchange baw&n the rwo of you took that day? 

A It was a matter of saying “I’m being transferred” 

and she was crying and then she walked away. 

Q Did she ever stop and talk to you or was she moving 

the whole time you had your exchange? 

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Page 39 1 

I A No. sk was - 1 mean. she was p”rtt)’ much moving. 

She was crying and sbc was uyinp to go in the office to see 

if tbcy could do any-thing. Sk was mot-c CO~CCTI~~~~ on 

going to the office to ask them rather than stoppmg in and 

having a conversation with mc. 

A JUROR: Did you au put anything @etbcr about 

here she was being transferxd and that - you bad all these 

friendly conversations with her and also beard the story 

about btr being in the Oval Office? 

THE WIlNl%S: No. I know she - from talking to 

her after. I know she didn’t want to bc transferred. She 

liked her job. Sbc liked working there. But she never 

spcciftcally said anything as to why she thought she was 

being transfcmd. 

A JUROR: Did you bavc any questions in your mind 

as to possibly the reasons why she was hcing tmnsfaxd out? 

Because of what it was that you knew that had happened on 

EastC!X? 

THE WITNESS: s&, I don’t know. I mean, I could 

assume that, but - and pwpk get transfand thtzc a lot, 

so I don’t know spccifmlly if it was because of that 

incident. It fell right afterwards. so you would probably 

think that it could have been baause of that. 

A JUROR: Did you ever know of anybody else who was 

crying on being transfurul out of: tbc White House? 

Page 4 

I THEWlTNESS: No, sir. 

2 MR. SUSA.NlN: I’ll ask the foqxerson at this time 

3 ifMs.Vemamaybcexcused. 

4 THE FOREPERSON: Yes, she may. 

5 THEwlTNEs: -l-ha&you. 

6 MR.susAMN: Tfhankyou. 

7 -rhankyoyh4s.vema. 

B THE FOREPERSON: -hank you. 

9 (TheWitIKSSwaSWrCZ-lSd.) 

D (whereupon, a2 12:15 p.m., the taking of testimony 

1 intheprexnceofafullquonrm oftbeGmndJurywas 

2concluded.) 

3 l **** 

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