1615 

OK-302 (Rev. 8-I P94) 

-IOFFICE OF THE lXDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

Date of transcription 05/27/98 

OLIVER MAZYAR JANNEY, Officer, United States 

Secret Service, (USSS) Uniformed Division (UD), date of birth, 

m-b, SSAN ----I was interviewed at the Office of 

the Independent Counsel (OIC), 

Washington, DC, 20004. 

1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, 

Present for the interview were Associate 

Independent Counsel (AIC) MICHAEL TRAVERS; and Department of 

Justice (DOJ) attorneys, DAVID ANDERSON and ANNE WEISMANN. 

JANNEY was interviewed under the terms of an agreement reached 

between the OIC and the DOJ. After being apprised of the 

official and personal identities of the interviewers and the 

nature of the interview, 

information: 

JANNEY provided the following 

JANNEY entered on duty with the USSS on November 5, 

1995 * JANNEY worked initially as an unassigned officer at the 

White House. After approximately fourteen months, JANNEY was 

assigned to a permanent post of duty at the Southwest Gate of the 

White House. JANNEY has recently been assigned to a surveillance 

vehicle and part time unassigned. 

JANNEY advised that on occasion he works at other posts 

or fills in for other officers in order to get more hours for the 

work week. 

JANNEY recalls he was on duty at the Southwest Gate 

during late November or early December of 1997, on a Saturday or 

possibly a Sunday, during the,day time when he noticed a young 

female trying to gain entry tq the White House Complex. JANNEY 

noticed that Officer DOUG DRAGOTTA (Ph) was handling the entry 

processing and remembers hearing that she did not have an 

appointment with anyone and therefore she had to be cleared by 

someone inside the White House. JANNEY'recalls that she had an 

"attitudet' and that she used an Oregon drivers license for 

identification. JANNEY believes she called BETTY CURRIE, 

secretary to the President, and was apparently approved to enter 

the White House and was entered into the WAVES system. JANNEY 

said the young woman was clearly perturbed. 

JANNEY was then responsible for x-raying of the 

packages being carried by the young female. JANNEY recalls while 

walking to the x-ray machine he mentioned that he was from Oregon 

Investigation on 05/27/98 at Washington, D. C. File # 29D-OIC-LR-35063 
1616 

OIC-302a (lb. 8-19-94) 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

Continuation of OK-3M of OLIVER MAZYAR JANNEY .On 05/27/98 , Pqs 2 

and they exchanged pleasantries. She then became more relaxed 

and cordial. During the x-ray process, JANNEY asked what was 

contained in the packages and; who was to be the recipient. The 

young woman indicated that the presents were for the President. 

JANNEY remembers that she indicated the packages contained a 

letter opener, a basket and possibly a pen. JANNEY could not 

recall any other gifts being in the packages even though there 

may have been others. JANNEY said he used the x-ray image and 

her description to satisfy himself that the items were what she 

had described and that they posed no threat to the President or 

other occupants of the White House. 

JANNEY did not see her again that day and does not know 

if she actually visited CURRIE or how long she may have stayed in 

the White House. 

JANNEY remembers that one of the three other officers 

on duty that day at the Southwest Gate asked him when he returned 

to the gate if he knew who that was, indicating the young female 

he had x-rayed packages for only minutes earlier. JANNEY was 

then told that she was MONICA LEWINSKY, a former White House 

intern who, it was rumored, was having an affair with the 

President. There was also some discussion about LEWINSKY showing 

up at the White House often and at unusual hours, usually withcut 

an appointment and usually cleared into the White House by BETTY 

CURRIE. 

JANNEY does not recall seeing LEWINSKY again after the 

above incident. JANNEY, however does recall seeing LEWINSKY 

enter the White House on about three other occasions prior to the 

above entry. Those occasions were unremarkable and JANNEY does 

not recall LEWINSKY bringing any items into the White House on 

those occasions. 

JANNEY recalls several comments being made among the CD 

personnel that were related or referred to the rumor of an affair 

between LEWINSKY and the President. Even though he could not 

remember who made the comment, he remembers hearing comments like 

"guess who came in this weekend." Other comments had to do with 

the correlation of LEWINSKY's entry into the White House and the 

simultaneous movement of the President to the Oval Office. These 

comments were fueled by the UD personnel being in a position to 

know when LEWINSKY clears through a gate and then knowing by 

routine operational radio transmissions where the President is at 

all times. Comments, 

the close 

discussions and open speculation concerning 

relationship between the President and LEWINSKY were 

commonplace among UD personnel during late 1997. 
1617 

OK-302a (Rev. 8-19-94) 

29D-OIC-LR -35063 

Continuation of OK-302 of OLIVER MAZYAR JANNEY ,On 05/27/98 .Page 3 

Gate, 

JANNEY recalls an incident occurring at the Northwest 

on an unrecalled date, 

personnel. 

which was related to him by other UD 

According to the individuals who told him about this 

incident, LEWINSKY came to the Northwest Gate and did not have an 

appointment. She was told that she would have to wait. LEWINSKY 

apparently called BETTY CTJRRIE and there was still a delay in 

getting in. JANNEY said he can't recall if LEWINSKY was able to 

get in or not but the reason she was delayed was because ELEANOR 

MONDALE was in the West Wing, presumably, with the President. 

JANNEY remembers that the President was apparently upset and 

called the Northwest Gate and wanted to know what happened. 

JANNEY could not recall specifically who told him about this 

incident. 

JANNEY said that the talk among UD personnel about the 

presumed affair between CLINTON and LEWINSKY was commonplace 

prior to the affair becoming public in late January, 1998. Since 

late January there has been almost no talk about the alleged 

affair.&aOvOH 
1618 
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1619 - 

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tlniUdSUt8~ DisUict Court THE M?lTNESS: J-a-n-y. r0r th m9uict or foi\lbia 

3rd ‘ corutitution, Ii.*. BY MR. PAGE: 

W~~hia~ton. D.C. 20001 

nmrs&y, Aaquot 13, 1999 Q ~~yo-w-=beforc~grandjw. 

10 youbavemainrightsandoncofthemisyour ma uNlmony or OLIVU lm3xAa Ja’asx wu uhn in 

ttu pmmco or . ml quo- or Orand Jurv 97-L Wld 

11 co&hti~righttbatyoudaYhavetoin~ 

c.n.u,cw .t 2:09 p-r., bdora: 

12 yourself,otbekscknownasycmFifthAmcadmmtright. 

on a.p- 19, 1997, 

13 Doyouundcrstandthat? , 

UIARD J. ?m 

Imax Awl’s *xaTs 

A,sOCiau ID&padmlC coum*1 

orria 0r ~~depndont Cous*l 

1001 hnn*ylruli~ Av*llu*r 1.1. 

Q Doyouun~tbatifatrutbful-toaoy 

suit. 490 worth 

*ashlnqton, D.C. 20004 16 oftbequestionsp~toyoutodgywouldtendtoincriminate 

17 youtbatyoucanrefuseto answurilatquesfion? Doyou 

A Yes. Yes,Ido. Sorry. 

undmtandfurthathatanythingthatyoudo 

21 saymaybcu&againstyoubytkgandjuryorina 

22 subsequentlegalproceeding? 

1 PROCEEDINGS 

zwbaarpon, 

3 OLIVERMAZYARJANNEY 

4wascdaiasswitlKssmd,afterha~bmrfirot~ Q Youudmtandtbat? 

5 swombytbzE+pasomoftbtGmdJury,wasatamiacd~ 

6 testifkd as follows: Q DoyouhavealawyerbcyondMattDaks? 

7 EXAMINATION 

8 BY MR. PAGE: Q Iwanttoalsoadviseyoutbatunderftdaalruks 

9 Q Officu,wouldyoutellusyourfullname,picasc’l 9 ofQiminalprocedurethatwhatgoesmhattoday,inotber 

0 A OlivcrMazyarJamcy. 10 words,anyma#athattakesplaabeforetbegrandjray,is 

1 Q Wouldyouspcllyourmiddknamf~tbcbcndrtof 11 semtandthatonlyyoucandi&sewhat~oesonkretoday 

2tkcourtlqlclad 12 to people outside. Do you m&stand that? 

3 A Suz M-a-z-ye. 

4 Q Offii~mynamt,asIintroduadyouOmysdf Q ‘Ibueanaxtahexcepthstotbatrule,~, 

5 outside,lsEdPage. TomykftisMuyAaaeWirtb. Weboth 15 andoncoftkmisiftbec4mcmktbatyourtcStimmyis 

6 workwithtbcOffkoftkIndcpcrdentCarnrdand~’sarp 16 pertimttoanotherk@procadingorotkr~ 

7 jobtoaskyausaazqucstimstadaymbclvrlfof~~ 17 proceed&. lhyouunderstaadtbat? 

8ju1y.Doyou1,u~btdthat? 

9 A Ys. Q Doyouumhstandtbattkonlyperson~isnot 

10 Q Bef~wegctstartaiwithtboscqucstioas,I~~ 20 boundbythatruleofsmecyi.syomelf? 

!l toadviscyouofafcwthgsandmakcmyou~d=stand 

!2 tkm. F~thisisafcdaalgrandjurymdtifcderal Q Inotberwords,afkrthis,ywmakeyour 

!3 pndjuryisinvdgatingal@tionsaboutwhdbaarrroS- 29 appeamozlxmoday,youcouldgptotbefrontstepsof 

and make any public CQIWUttStbCZCopZlD)’ 

,r Page 1 -Page4 

n.‘,.,s-,-:cfll T),..Az-- (r-2--- 7-- ,-n-x rrn/ -r\rrn 

mrm 
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1620 
1621 

hrc: GrandJuzy~pnwxtdingr Multi-Pm= Aunust13.1998 

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Page! 

la@ytat. 

Q okffy. =Y. 

ALwknshecameio. 

Q Okay. Allright. %doyou =manberwbatdayof 

tkwitwas? Wasitaweekadw 

A Yes,I.thinkitwasawEekmd. 

QhyoU ~whichitwas,SaturdayorSuo&y? 

A No,butitwasbkearoundmidday. 

Q whowatyouwaidqwithtbatd@ 

A The~ypefsonIc8nspecificallyrecz&isisug . 

Dragotta~=~ 

Q =f'Y. 

A Baxusckwastkonctktkdproocmdhain 

and*skhadgottenin,aftashewasclearedin,1todr 

tkpa&agcsaodwentoverandX-layedtkmIikewntX-iay 

anythingthatcomesin,rcga&ssofwboit’sgoingto. 

Q Didsbehavetbcpa&agesi.nanykindofumtainer? 

A Ithinkshehadinlilreasboppingb8gandtben 

tkyunenwmp~Iilcepreselltsofmnnesort. 

Q Okay. Anddoyourememberbowmanytheremn? 

A Ithinktifourafive. 

Q Weretkyhqeasnall’l 

A SmalIkcausetkywerealIinme-Iikea 

Bloomingdale’s type bag. It wasn’t Bloomingdale’s, but I’m 

justsayinglike1 

2 

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5 

6 

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Q A big shoppins bag? 

A Yes. Exactly. 

Pw I( 

Q Okay. Andthepres&sthemselvesuncrtsmakr? 

A Yes. Give or&&e. Youknow, k&s&&, nothing 

likegafgantuanoraxlythingliketkt. 

Q okay. Andyousaidyouproce=dtkpackages? 

A Yes. 

Q What do you do? 

A Whenanyoneamrsinwithpackagtsorabriefcazz 

orapursc,ifwtcan’tphysi~ysaeinsideofit,wetakt 

itacmsstotkotherpostwkreurckvcanX-raymachine, 

putitin,X-rayit,andthcnif~can’ttell,~thinkit’s 

somethingoutoftko&lUuy,thezlthenusuaUyask. Iask 

anyway,justtogetani&a Idoo’tszcaUex@.lywhat 

tkywere. Ithinkonewdslikea~opmeroraamdle 

orsometh&likethat. nuewas&IikeIsaid,fourorfive 

presentsorQ Okay. I’m going to turn your attention to tk 

~pageofthislqxxttosccifan~~refresks 

yournnlory. Itsaysthaq”Duringtkx-rayprocess-” 

No, I’m sorry. “‘Ik young woman indicated tk P&dent - 

Righttkre. “Jarmeyraoemkrsthatsheindicatedthe 

pa&gesccmtainedalettczopener,abasketandpossiblya 

pen.” DocstktA &s,somethingbketh& Again,Iddtknow 

PWl 

1 specifJJywkttheywuC 

2 Q ~YW mncmkralelztaopener? Doesthatringa 

3 bell? 

4 A Yes. Just~whatitlookedlikeootkX-ray. 

5 Q Okay. Sotktskdidn’ttiyoutkt,that’s 

6 what you thought you saw. 

7 A Yes. ‘hat’swbat~.rrrmdtos&. 

8 Q Andwknyousaidaba&e~doyoubaveanyIccmoq 

9 ofwhatitl.ookedl&e,howbigitwas? 

IO A Yes. Itwasabrown-alittlc,smaUbrown 

I1 bask%. Nothing-notlikeanEasterbasket,butjustlik 

I2 asmallbasket. Iguessyouwouldputflowersorsamdhing 

13 init_ 

14 Q Could it have possibly been a pumpkin? 

15 A Id&t know. 

16 Q Anditsayshere’possii1yapeq”awriti.q 

17 At? 

.8 A Yes. Becausetkzewassomethinginaboxandit 

9 waslikinasmallbox. Iaskedherwhatwasinthaexod 

!O sksaiditwasapen. AtleastwhatIcanrecall. That’s 

!i whatIrememkr. 

2 Q Isitpossibleshetidpin? 

!3 A Idon’tknow. pin,pcn,something. 

!4 Q samdhingliketkt? Okay. Allright. Didyou 

!5 kveallyc4mva?&onwithherthatyouremembel? 

1 

2 

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5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

0 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

0 

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3 

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5 

page 1’ 

A Yes. Ithi&whe!alskwasoverontheotkrsi&+ 

Iremembcrlookingatherdrivcr’slicarse. Ithinkitsaid 

LikshewasfromtheWestCoastorsamethiogIikethatandI 

asLedhcrwkze. SksaidOregon. AndIsaidmyfatbxwas 

Frmn Oregon. Just small little chit-chat tall& nothing out 

oftk~. TknIgavekrherstuffandsaidkvea 

good daYa 

Q Okay. Whatwasbermanner ordemeaaorliketlmt 

day? DoyouremembY? 

A Iklieveitwas-youknow,nofx& Again.1 

doo’thowspecifi~yifitwarthattimethatshewasn 

wam’tclearedin,buttkreweretimes,youknow,whcnshe 

wasl’tclcaredin,youkoow,sbe’dgetali#letesty<nwhat 

haveyoujustbecauseskwam’tintksystem,butweha~ 

DothingtodowithtllaL 

Q Wasthisoneofthosedayswknskhadn’tbeca 

clcaredin? 

A I can’t specifically nxalL 

Q okay. I’m just going to turn your atta~tion to tk 

fvstpageofthis302againandaskyoutolookatthis 

fourth pamgraph again, wkre it says that “Janaey notiad 

rktofficerDougDmgottawashandlingtkentry 

Pro==&” 

A Yes. 

Q “Andrememkrshearingthatskdidnotkvcan 

Page 9 - Page 12 
1622 

Inrc: GmndJmyFro~ M&i-P8# Apgrwt13,1998 , 

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1 *ppoin~twi&Myonedltucfacrbtbadtobcc~ 

2 bysoummcinsidetkWhitcHousc” 

3 ACanoct. 

4 Q “Jamcynxallsthatskkda’attitu&aadtkt 

5 Sk usal oxcgon drivu’s liamc far iChtificatioa.” 

6 ARisM 

1 Q “Jeumcyb&vcsskcalkdBcuyCu&,aaxemy 

8 totkRs~~andwasappamtlyupprovaltoamtk 

9 whikHouJc,rcquiringbatoabobccntucdintotkWA~ 

0 8ysltln.” 

1 A_ 

2 Q “Janncysaidtkyoungwamwasckwly 

3m 

4 A Yes. Imean5 Q Istbcxcanythingtkzetbathcsksyourmcrnory 

6 ofwktkppaml? 

7 A Yes. Imcan,ifthat’stkactwd-Idon’t 

8 know-again,~manytiwsassk’rcomcinandtimcstkt 

9 skbasabasn’tkulclmdin,Ifzan’tspccifically0 yLuknow,atkastfnnnfhafnuwthatkttcJlsmc-aurc. 

1 nmtktwastkday. 

2 Q WeU,I’monlysbtm+agyouthisQs~~ifit 

3 lrfmksyour~~. 

4 A Yes. Absolutely. 

5 Q&You xema&Krtktlhatday,tkdaythatyou’rc 

Page 14 

kstifyhg abox& that sk didn’t have &arancc to come in? 

A Yes. Ithinkskbadtowaitlike10,15minutrs 

as~likcthat 

Q Doyoummnbuthatskwasputurkdorupsct 

about that7 

A Yes. sbcwasalittlcanaoyaL Notrlittkz,but 

jlut-lKlwevaQ LXdskmakcacaUtoBcttyCur&togctin? 

A Yes. Bccausethat’swksksaidskwasgoingto 

calL Goehcadandcalltkm. 

Q Okay. Anddoyoumnllwktkrvhmyouspaketo 

haandsktoldyouskwasfromOrrgon,skskwcdyoutk 

Orcgondriva’slicawcandyoutoldbawkrcyourfatha 

wasfrcrm,doyoumallwluhxbati~ckngc4i? was 

skA Skwasfimtimkcause-youknuw,lik-once 

thy’ref~cksmdin,tbmit’slikabig-youkmw, 

tkburdaCsoff,tky’rcnowgmingintnsawkwutky 

wantlose. 

Q Didsktcllyouwhotkpa~wczcfor? 

A Yes. SksaidtbeywucfortkPmidcnt. 

Qhdyou= amunmcdbcrbcfozcwknsk 

broughtinpackaeesfortkRuidea17 

A No. 

Q Didyoucveraalngainihatdsy7 

1 

2 

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6 

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8 

9 

10 

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i3 

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A Nattbtday,no. 

Q Doyouhavc~ylrnowkdgc~to~sk I 

actuallygotintoS!ccitbuBcttycunicortkpnsidcnt? 

A Idon’tknow. 

Q Doyouknowofanycmmsationsthatsbcbadwith 

ofhr Dragotta that day? 

A No,just-bccaustwbeak’sdoingtbat,we’nt 

doingsameth&elstmdIdon’tspecifadlyncallwhat 

contiontkyhad. 

Q ‘hiswasnottkfirsttimcyouhadaaaMoaica 

Imiosky,iStlWight? 

ARight. 

Q ‘Ib@ortimsthatyousawk,spproximattlyhow 

manywactknz? 

A Maybctlmcorfourtimqifcvcatbat. Itmight 

bcmorr,justnotlcnowingwlmskwasarwhathavcyou. It 

justdoc&‘tdaumoamcoranytbglikctbatuntilafb 

tllisQ Didyoualwaysscekratthesoutt~~gatcor 

rwmcwhcEe&? 

A No,Iwasahys-Incvusawhaanywbx&c 

taattki4tnaww~. 

Q Doyoubavezmymcmod ofrmyoftheotha 

occasionsollwhichyousawhaprioftothisoat? 

A No,aotspccificaLly. 

1 Q Doyouknowwb&mmtkwprioroccasimstbe 

2 was ttnetovisit sommncinpamculan 

3 A h&stoftktimc,ntkastttmtIcanrccall,it 

4 wasumllyfaBdtyCunickr;rurcmtkrcrrea,wbenytm 

5 ptlUUptbCpcnoa’S~itWi.ll~WbOtk~iS 

6 aodwlmfbey’lregoiDgtogovisitmdinbotbillsmesit 

7 wBeaycuKie. 

8 Q DoyouxccaUwbukroutbmcpriorocc~ionssk 

9 wasckamlinfmavisitawkdmskkdQmakcacaIl7 

0 A Idoa’tknowspecifhlly. Ijustlmow,lik,ycu 

1 knw,onthatspccifiioccasioa,butIlmowthclmvcbam 

2 timcswkaeaklmsn’tlx!mckaKdiqatkastfhRlwlmt 

3 I’vcttold. Andcvcm&yakgf%clearrdialadrbt 

4 wasamul. 

5 Q Dopukmwwktbu-thisvititwithtk 

6 hGdmtlh0tyou’vcdmcriitodtly,luutblltlkluttica 

7 t#JEtJNJU~WMmicrr~ 

B A Yes. 

9 Ms. WIRTH: QuMtioas fnml mlyooe? 

D AJURORz Ontbcdaytktyou’vekmbzll&us 

1 dOU&*JfOUCk4lXdh4OUiC8in,didSilCgOiIlOllbU~ 

2 nciidsadodyCMncQwnmgdhrRldwalkbuin7 

3 TI-lEw’lTN%S No. Wkarbccomuin,justlik~~ 

I rcguhrappoin~~whrn~ccxlleiawti~-we’n 

5 Mkikmiftkyknowrvfrrctby’rc~~yuuklxnv,Eby 

Page 13 -Page 16 
1623 

. 

hxe: Grmdh.cy~ Am 

1 

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: 

; 

Page 1; 

1 saytbcydoorthcydon't,butbaving~thac~~sbc 

2 kncwcxactlywkrcmgo. 

3 AJUROR: Okay. Sonooaecamctogctha. 

4 THEWlTNE!S: No. Skwalkcduptheavawemd 

5 wcintintotbc-Ibclimeithatbroughtkupstairsor 

6 throughtk~inthCwCSt~iOawcst~vC 

7 Avams. 

8 ANROR: ‘IbamkyOU 

9 Ms. WIRTH: Aayane else? 

IO wo =P=J 

II MS. WIRTH: with your palnisb - 

!2 THE FOREPER!SON: Mr. Jmmey, you are cxcud 

!3 nankyouforyourtcsrimoay. 

14 Ms. WIRTHZ nank yoy Officer. 

I5 THEWlTNESS:ok9y.3IldCX 

16 IWLWIRTHZ Bye-bye. 

:7 THEwITNEss: solong. 

18 (3IEWi&JCSSW?SCXCWd.) 

19 ~at2:24p_uL,the~oftcstimony 

10 inthcplesxlcc ofafdqwxumofthcGmndJurywas 

!1 concludal.) 

!2 .**** 

Page” August 13,1991 

Page 17 -Page 17 
1624 
1625 

OIC-302 (Rev. S-19-94) 

- 1 - 

OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

Date of ttanscnption 2/12/98 

On below date, JOCELYN MARIA JOLLEY was advised of the 

identity of the investigating Agents and the purpose for the 

interview. JOLLEY was interviewed in the presence of her 

attorney, JUDITH R. CATTERTON, at CATTERTON's office, Suite 215, 

200A Monroe Street, Rockville, Maryland 20850, telephone number 

(301) 294-0460. JOLLEY provided the following information: 

JOLLEY is employed as an executive assistant. 

JOLLEY graduated from Francis Marion College in 

Florence, South Carolina, with a Bachelor's Degree in Economics 

in May 1992. She began work at the White House in September of 

1992, as a staff assistant in the White House Office of 

Legislature Affairs (OLA). She worked under LORRAINE MILLER. 

JOLLEY's duties included scheduling, office management, and 

handling correspondence. 

In March of 1995, JOLLEY was promoted to the Office of 

Legislative Affairs Correspondence Office (OLACO). This meant an 

increase in pay and responsibilities. This move was suggested by 

LORRAINE MILLER as JOLLEY had performed well in her previous 

position. JOLLEY advised her new supervisors were TIM KEATING 

and SUSAN BROPHY. 

OLACO was located in the East Wing of the White House. 

JOLLEY's responsibilities included sorting through all the mail 

received from Capitol Hill (both the Senate and the House), 

farming out those letters that needed a draft reply, routing 

those letters that needed to be acted on, and maintaining contact 

with the Office of the Staff Secretary at that time, TODD STERN. 

JOLLEY was in charge of OLACO. Working with her was CHRIS WALKER 

(currently OLA) and two interns each semester. JOLLEY advised 

that she had a high pressure position, and she was forced to 

learn the job as she went along. 

Investigation on 2/12/98 at Rockville, Maryland File # 29D-OIC-LR-35063 

Date dictated 12/12/98 
1626 

OIC-302a (Rev. S-19-94) 

29D -OIC-LR-35063 

Continuation of OK-302 of JOCELYN MARIA JOLLEY .~n 2/12/98 , Page 2 

In late November or early December 1995, MONICA 

LEWINSKY joined the OLACO. JOLLEY had not selected her, nor 

had she seen LEWINSKY's resume. This upset JOLLEY, and she sent 

an e-mail to KEATING, BROPHY, and PAT GRIFFIN expressing her 

concern that she was getting an employee who JOLLEY had no role 

in hiring. KEATING responded that JOLLEY's e-mail was 

inappropriate, as JOLLEY had no hiring duties. JOLLEY later 

heard a rumor that the Chief of Staff's Office wanted LEWINSKY 

hired. JOLLEY did not recall from whom she heard this. 

JOLLEY advised that LEWINSKY was a good, competent 

worker with a "bubbly" personality. JOLLBY did not feel that 

LEWINSKY was overly concerned with seeirfg the President. 

dLEWINSKY did tell JOLLEY that LEWINSKY had bought the President a 

necktie. LEWINSKY pointed to an office picture of the President 

signing the Telecomm Bill (January 1996), and told JOLLEY that 

was the tie LEWINSKY gave the President. 

JOLLEY heard speculation from CHRIS WALKER and ANN 

CATALINI (OLA) that LEWINSKY was hanging around the West Wing 

frequently to see the President. WALKER and CATALINI discussed 

the fact that EVELYN LIEBERMAN, Deputy Chief of Staff, had been 

notified by someone that LEWINSKY was a concern. JOLLEY recalled 

that this speculation started around the time LEWINSKY first came 

to OLACO in November/December 1995, and lasted until both 

LEWINSKY and JOLLEY were fired in April 1996. 

During that time frame, JOLLEY worked with LEWINSKY 

on a daily basis. Both JOLLEY and LEWINSKY went to the West Wing 

as part of their OLACO daily duties. JOLLEY never saw LEWINSKY 

with the President. However, LEWINSKY once told JOLLEY that 

LEWINSKY and a female friend were visited by the President in the 

East Wing. LEWINSKY advised JOLLEY that, on a weekend day, 

LEWINSKY brought a friend to the White House for a tour. After a 

tour of the West Wing, LEWINSKY and the friend returned to OLACO. 

At this time, according to LEWINSKY, the President came in to say 

hello to LEWINSKY and her friend. JOLLEY did not know the name 

of LEWINSKY's friend. 

JOLLEY advised that, early in the first week of April 

1996, she was approached by a uniformed Secret Service Officer. 

This officer, MAURICE HENDERSON, told JOLLEY to "watch your back, 

someone saw the President and MONICA (LEWINSKY) smooching." 
1627 

OIC-302a (Rev. 8-19-94) 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

Continuation of OK-302 of JOCELYN MARIA JOLLEY .On 2/12/98 *page 3 

HENDERSON did not explain himself any further, and JOLLEY did not 

understand how this would concern her. JOLLEY considers 

HENDERSON a good friend with whom she would often speak at the 

White House. JOLLEY believes HENDERSON has transferred out of 

the East Wing. JOLLEY never heard other speculation that 

LEWINSKY and the President were having an affair. 

That same week, JOLLEY had a meeting with TIM KEATING. 

KEATING told JOLLEY she was being fired from OLACO and the White 

House. KEATING told JOLLEY that senior staffers did not like her 

work, and that she had attendance problems. KEATING stated that 

letters were getting to the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) 

late from OLACO. JOLLEY stated that this was unfair and'she was 

upset. OMB had a large backlog of letters due to the government 

shutdowns, and this was not her fault. JOLLEY had never been 

told by anyone that she was not doing a good job. JOLLEY felt 

that the OLACO ran well, considering the high volume of work. 

JOLLEY had been ill (diabetes), and her mother had a serious 

heart problem that JOLLEY tried to help with. JOLLEY and KEATING 

had talked about that before. 

KEATING told JOLLEY that JODI TORKELSON, Director of 

White House Administration, stated that JOLLEY could not be fired 

without having a job to go to. KEATING told JOLLEY that JOLLEY 

would have a job at the Government Services Administration (GSA). 

KEATING told JOLLEY to fill out some type of exit employment 

form. JOLLEY did this, and KEATING convinced her that she should 

fill out the form stating that the move to GSA was actually a 

promotion. JOLLEY knew this was not true, but was so shocked and 

upset about being fired she filled it out anyway. 

JOLLEY later found out that JIM DORSKIND, Director of 

Presidential Correspondence, had complained about the OLACO. No 

one ever told JOLLEY what DORSKIND did not like about the OLACO 

operation. JOLLEY also found out (she believes on April 5, 1996) 

that LEWINSKY was also being fired from the OLACO. JOLLEY saw 

LEWINSKY, and LEWINSKY was very upset and crying at her desk. 

JOLLEY did not know why LEWINSKY was being fired, but knew she 

was going to the Pentagon. JOLLEY heard that LEWINSKY returned 

the following Monday to pack her belongings. On the day she was 

fired, LEWINSKY complained that she wanted to continue to work at 

the White House, not the Pentagon. 
1628 

OK-302a (Rev. 8-19-W) 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

Continuation of OK-302 of JOCELYN MARIA JOLLEY .On 2i12/98 ,Page 4 

JOLLEY stated that she was a Schedule C employee at 

GSA. JOLLEY was hired for 120 days, and this was extended once. 

After this extension, JOLLEY was let go by GSA. 

JOLLEY has spoken with CHRIS WALKER and JANET MURGHIA, 

Special Assistant to the President, for OLA, and House Liaison, 

since the story about LEWINSKY broke. They did not discuss the 

scandal. JOLLEY did speak about the LEWINSKY matter with 

LORRAINE MILLER, now with the Federal Trade Commission. JOLLEY 

and MILLER spoke about the story in general terms. 

JOLLEY believes that she was fired in order to make the 

LEWINSKY firing not seem too singular in nature. JOLLEY advised 

that she felt OLACO was well run, and she was shocked when TIM 

KEATING fired her. 

JOLLEY was shown an e-mail dated April 9, 1996, from 

JODI TORKELSON to BOB NASH and PATTY THOMASSON to see if JOLLEY 

knew anything about TORKELSON's stated concerns. JOLLEY advised 

that she had been looking for other employment at the time she 

was fired. However, JOLLEY wanted to leave on her own terms. 

JOLLEY was surprised that the e-mail was dated April 9, 1996, as 

both JOLLEY and LEWINSKY had been fired on April 5, 1996. Both 

LEWINSKY and JOLLEY had been given other jobs on April 5, 1996. 

JOLLEY never spoke with TORKELSON, NASH, or THOMASSON about her 

being fired or hired by GSA. The e-mail dated April 9, 1996, 

from TORKELSON to NASH and THOMASSON is attached to this FD-302 

and incorporated as reference. 
1629 

RECORD TYPE: PRESIDENTIAL (ALL-IN-l HAIL) 

CREATOR:Jodie R. Torkelson ( 4-11 -1 

CREATION DATE/TIME: 9-APR;l'996 11:43:26.25 

SUBJECT:Monica Lewinsky and Jocelyn Jolley 

TO:Bob J. Nash (NlW 

READ: 9-APR-1996 20:34:57.14 

TO:Patsy L. Thomasson (WlW 

READ: 9-APR-1996 11:58:42.61 

TEXT: 

Both of these staff have secured positions in other federal 

agencies: ?lonica at DOD and Jocelyn at GSA. 

I r.,ad to Ii,ic.. iF Jifhw nf them is attwwting to arr=nge +hrough 

your offices positions other than the ones already arranged at DOD 

and GSA. 

Thanks. 
1630 
1631 

Jocelyn Jolley, 2/24/98 

Grand Jury 

Page 1 to Page 68 

CONDENSED TRANSCRIPT AND CONCORDANCE 

PREPARED BY: 

OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 

Suite 490-North 

Washington, DC 20004 

Phone: 202-514-8688 

FAX: 202-5 14-8802 
1632 

Jocelyn Jolley, 2/24/98 

Page 1 

. t*, UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 

FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 

[z;______ _--------- x 

[3jln re: 

t i i GRAND JURY PROCEEDINGS : 

161 

i7j 

181 

I91 

IL01 

(111 

[i,ll 

I;:; 

IL51 

IL61 

[I71 

[ISI 

[191 

I201 

I211 

[221 

[231 

1241 

i25; 

________________x 

Grand Jury Room No. 4 

United States District Court 

for the District of Columbia 

3rd 8 Constitution, N.W. 

Washrngton, DC. 20001 

resence of a full 

!z 

Th.:::,:~~~~~~~~,‘“‘JOLLEY w; taken in the 

uorum of Grand Jury 97-2. im aneled on 

eptember 19. 19 7. commencin at 9:44 a.m., efore 

kS~~r3~~~V’n~~NBEj!G 

DARRYL JOSEPH 

JACKIE M. BENNETT, JR. 

Suite 490 North 

Washington, D.C. 20004 

[ll 

12 1 Whereupon 

Page 2 

JQCELYN M. JOLLEY 

I: i was called as a witness and, after having been duly sworn by 

[ 5 1 the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and testified 

[ 6 1 as follows: 

[7i EXAMINATION 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

i i 6; reporter. 

117: Before we start, I’m goin 

[ i 3 : bit about what we’re doing here an % 

to tell you a little 

tell you, about your 

1 :?I rights and~sponslbrktres as a grand jury witness. okay? 

!?’ I--. Q giiYwhat I’ll ask of you is occasionally I’m going 

I 22 to ask you a questron and ask if you understand and I’m going 

:: 3, to ask you to sa yes, no, maybe, but some words. .^. .-* A C!kay 

.-: 1-2, Q Because sometimes people go “uh-huh” or “un-uh” 

Page 4 

: ‘and the 

‘2 can’t ta z 

shake thetr head and the grand jury court reporter 

e that down, okay? 

:3. A Fine. 

Q All nght. First of all, this is a United States 

i 5 j grand jury empaneled by a United States district judge and 

: 6 Iwe’re conductrn 

9 

an Investigation of possible violations of 

1: lfederal cnmrnal aw rnvolving possible perjury, possible 

! ? ‘obstructron of justice and possible subornation of perjury. 

‘> Let me now tell you what your nghts and 

._ ? : responsibilities are as a grand jury witness. ).I L.. You have a privilege against self-incrrmination. 

; :z : That means you could refuse to answer an question if a 

1: 3 : truthful answer to the question would tend ty o incrrminate 

; : I 1 you. Do you understand that? 

1:5! -A Yes 

116: 0 Anythin 

[ 17; rand jury or any later egal proceeding. Do you understand 

w 

P 

you do say may be used against you by the 

,181 .--, at? 

(14: A Yes. 

I’01 Q And let me ‘ust make clear to you, I’m not trying 

[L’ I ! to lessen the tmportance o t 

I 2: I things I’m reading to 

what I’m saying to you, but these 

you 

I? 3 I before the arand iurv. 

are read to every witness who comes 

i24i A Okay’. 

i-‘51 Q I don’t want to heighten any nervousness you may 

Page 5 

,: : I already fez. 

._. .-/ I don’t think it could get an more higher 

i3: Q Okay. All right. Maybe rf .rm long and bonng 

! 4 Ienough with this the boredom WIII overcome the nervousness 

: 5~ It’s been known to happen. 

You have certain privileges as a grand jury 

[tiwitness. Let me rephrase that. As a eneral rule with the 

1s rexception of that pnvrlege against se P -rncnminatidn that I 

[gltold you about, you have to answer our questions and you have 

rlolto answer them truthfully. Do YOU understand that? 

I111 A Ido. - . 

Q You understand you can’t come in and lie to the 

1 ::iqrand iurv. that that would be oer(uw7 

iicj- . -A I certainly do. . _ 

Q Okay. But there are also some questions 

1 :zi have to answer. For instance. if I asked you about somet 

ou don’t 

K 

[ 17 1 that-would cause you to have to reveal an attorney-cltent 

ng 

[ le 1 pnvilege, you wouldn’t have to answer that if 

[ ~s]want to answer that. Do you understand that. J 

ou didn’t 

[201 A Yes. 

[211 Q If I asked you a question that would violate the 

izz] marital communications 

[zs]that, you could decide w 1 

rivilege. you wouldn’t have to answer 

ether or not you wanted to warve 

124 Ithat. Do yr ur$stand that? 

1251 

Page 6 

Q Other than those privileges and the privilege 

If iagainst self-incrimination, you have’to answer the queshons 

[ 31 and do so;mth$ur!: Do you understand that? 

[4I 

Q 

jzlcounsel in the 

Now you know you don’t have a right to have your 

rand tury room with you. 

I71 A 7 do know that. 

0 But you have the right to have your la 

Ii j and to confer with your lawyer whenever you need to. 

er outside 

w5 

[ 101 understand that? 

0 you 

(111 A Yes. 

i::icorrect? 

Q I understand you do have counsel outside. Is that 

I141 A That’s correct. 

1151 0 And what IS her name? 

[161 A Judith Catterton. 

l17! Q 

[ i 8 1 oppottuni 

25 

All ri ht. You understand that if you need an 

o YOU u$mtand that? 

to consu 

rlslto do so. 

with her that you are more than free 

i2Oj A _ Yes. 

I-‘11 Q Now, we’re all bound by an oath of secrecy, my&f, 

,:z]rny colleagues, the 

(2 3 ! means that we can *P 

rand jury and the court reporter. That 

go out and blab on the courthouse ste s 

[ 24 1 about whaAyouYt$d us here today. Do you understand tha P ? 

[?51 

Page 7 

Ill Q There are certain well-recognized legal exceptions 

[ 2 1 to the rule of secret 

? 

but with the exce 

P 

bon of those 

[ 3lexceptions we can go blab about wha 

(4 1 understand? 

you say. Do you 

[51 A Yes. 

0 

! 4 1 understand that? 

You’re not bound by the oath of secrecy. Do you 

181 A Yes. 

Q 

[ i 0’; tell the world about it or you can tell the world it’s none 

You can go talk to your attorney about it. you can 

[ 11 lof their business. Do you understand that? 

I121 A Yes. 

il3j Q Let me just give you an example of some of the 

[ 14 1 exceptions to our oath of secrecy If there was ever to be a 

[ 15 1 tnal resulting from our investigation and you were to be a 

[ 1 slwrtness in that trial ,and 

I I 7 1 was inconsistent. wtth w x 

ou got up, and said something that 

at you sard here today, then one of . 

[I 8 1 the lawyers on erther side could jump up and say, ‘Well, Ms. 

I 19 1 Jolley, you sard somethitg drfferent when you were in front 

[zolof the fedepl g;ran; jury. Do you understand that? 

[211 

Q That would be an example. We have certain FBI 

[::lagents who work with us. We’re allowed to tell them what 

~24 1 oes on in the grand ‘ury room, but they, too, are bound by 

1251 %l e oath of secrecy. bo you understand that? 

t)lcstarr~- Page f to Page 7 
1633 

BSA Jocelyn Jolley, 2124198 

-~ --__ 

Xu*x(Z) 

Page 8 

i;: A Yes. 

IT, 0 And, by the way, if you need to take a break for 

i;janything. for water. coffee, anything, just let us know, 

[ 4 1 okay? 

15! 

$ %% are three kinds of witnesses who come before 

it i the grand ury. The ‘re called witnesses, subjects and 

[ 8 I targets. d as your a i omey spoken to you about that all? 

191 - A No. 

[lOI Q We’ll do that. A ta et - and these are informal 

( 111 definitions I’m givin you - a targe ‘9 would ba somebody who 

112 J the 

[ : 3 1 that 9 

rand jury and t 3, e prosecutor feel it’s more than like1 

hat person is goin 

[I 4 1 You are nz a tar2z.t. B 

7v to be indicted for a cnrne, okay 

o you understand that? 

[I51 

1161 0 

[ 17 1 they’re 

A subject is a person who we don’t necessarily feel 

orn 

9 ii 

to be indicted, but we question their behavior, 

[ 18 1 we wan to now more about what they did, there’s some 

[ 1 glsuspruon perha s on that person. Do you understand that? 

1201 A 4s. 

r211 0 

i22j 

You are not a subject. Do you understand that? 

A Yes. 

I::iwho’s 

0 Okay. A witness is just a person who comes in, 

(rslsubje c? 

ot information the grand jury wants to hear about, a 

matter the grand jury is nvestigating. Do you 

Page 11 

::: Q And just bnefly. what are your duties there? ,^. A I asstst the drrector of the GED testing servtce. 

;< j I keep her schedule, I handle special projects. Ktnd of 

14 jserve as office manager. 

‘C‘ .-. Q Can you tell us a little bit about your employment 

I251 Q And how did you get that job? 

Page 9 

: 11 understan~tha\~sinition? 

[21 

I31 0 You’re a witness. Do you understand that? 

14! A Yes. 

0 Okay. We can’t romise a witness that they’ll 

IZ 1 never ever rn life be a target in t R - ! 7 1 understand that? e investigation. Do you 

181 A Yes. 

0 It’s an ongoin 

[ iii what you’ll find. But with tha a 

investigation and you don’t know 

exception, we’ll kt ou 

1: I 1 know you ire ay~$ess. Do you understand Is that. 

(121 

us to ask it again and 

, , 

‘:i: A 

::7’ Q 

: :s i that corre;’ 

%‘you are here pursuant to a subpoena today. is 

.‘i. 

. . . That’s correct. ._^. _~ Q It called for your person and documents. correct? 

-, 

. ..-. A That’s n ht.- 

.-_. 

.-- Q I unders 9 and you have brought some documents 

‘I 3 ‘pursuant t; the subpoena. Is that correct? 

_* That IS correct. 

:.i Q All right.. My colleague, Ms. VVirth. is going to do 

Page 10 

‘the questlonin 

3, 

of you and she will go over some of those 

‘t document;wit Fr;peu during the course of her questronng. 

.-, 

:E: A No. I don’t. 

MR. WISENBERG: Okay. Great. Wfih that, I’ll hand 

; : you over to MS Wirth for questioning. 

. .” BY MS WIRTH: 

. .A. 0 

A 

Ms. Jolley. can you tell us your age? 

.._ 

._ Thrrtv-seven. 

::3: Q 

::i: A 

And *what was your place of birth? 

Washtngton, DC. 

;!51 0 And can you tell the grand jury what your 

: :c leducahonal background is? 

iZ7! 

::s!obta~ned &at In 1992. 

I have a Bachelofs degree in economics. I 

::9j 0 Okay. And what is your current occupation? 

::01 I’m an executive assistant. 

.-. ,-*I :._I1 

. ..-. 

B Where? 

‘-IID C 

At the American Council on Education in Washington, 

__/_._ 

;:41 

!2Sj 

Q And how long have you been there? 

A About seven months. 

Page 12 

I81 A 

I 9 1 Affairs. 

Deputy Assistant to the President for Legislative 

rioj Q And how long did you work as her assistant? 

[111 A Two years. _ 

Q Now did there wme a time when you got another job 

I:ilin the Whz Ho+;:? 

1141 

I151 Q And when did that occur approximately? 

116’ A That was in March of 1995. 

i?7i Q And how did that come about? 

:15: A The woman, her name is Lee Anne Inadomi, who was 

[ I 9 I the Director of Congressional Correspondence, got a promotion 

r2o!withn the White House so that her position was vacant. I 

[ 211 had been lookin 

(22 !she asked me tf .9 d 

for a ‘ob and I asked her if - actually, 

woul consider the job that she was 

123 1 leaving. And srnce I was looking for a job, I said yes. 

Q And when you say ou were looking for a job, were 

Ii: j you looking for a better job in the White House or were you 

Page 13 

[ I I unhappy where you were working? 

12; A I wasn’t unhappy. I was kind of burnt out. I had 

( 3 lworked there for two years, long - you know, 10. 12-hour 

1 IIdays. And I didn’t see that I could go any further, you 

I 51 know, wrth the expenence that I had. I felt that I needed 

[6jSOme Hill experience if I wanted to go further. Not 

17 1 necessaril in the White House, but in politics, 

181 EI So what happened? Did you apply for the job? 

191 A Yes. 

_ 

t251 

A I would think so, yes. 

Q 

A 

And who were your new supervisors in your new job? 

Susan Brophy and Tim Keating. 

Q And what were their tiles? 

Page 8 to Page 13 OlCStarr 
BY __ 

1634 

Jocelyn Jolley, 2124198 

~_.__ -- 

Page 14 

A Susan’s title was Deputy Assistant to the President 

.i for Legislative Affairs and Tim Keahng’s was Specral 

:. Assrstant to the President. 

MR. WISENBERG: Let the record reflect that two 

i ;.attomeys from our oftice have come into the grand jury room, 

: 5. Jack Bennett and Da I Joseph. 

._ 

iE. 

BY MS. Wl?TH: 

Q 

f: promotion? 

Your new job, was your new job considered a 

,. _: 

,--. A Yes. 

. . . Q Were you making more money in your new job than you 

j If f had previously? 

r, :. 

\--. A Yes. 

::4: Q Now, where was your office located? 

,.I 

.-- 

Iii 

; ;rs,new office? 

[I-: A In the East Win 115‘ Q And that’s the &ti ce 

i : ?-Correspondence Office? 

of Legislative Affairs, 

i2:: A Yes. 

12:: Q And that’s the East Wbg of the White House 

12:: A Yes. 

Q Please tell the grand jury what your 

li: j responsibilities were for your new job. 

125: A My responsibilities were to supervise the staff 

Page 17 

..~ j-. 0 Drd she replace Chris Walker? 

,-, 

.-. A Yes 

i31 Q 

!4j A 

And do you remember ap roxrmately when that was? 

!jlDecember’95. 

lt was some time erther la P e November or early 

161 Q 

A 

And how did you first find out that she was coming? 

Ii; No one in authonty informe 

I heard throu h the grapevine that she was coming. 

8 me. 

[91 0 Do you know who selected her for the posrbon? 

I101 A Actually, I don’t. 

1111 0 Do YOU remember who told YOU that she was comino 

il2jSpecifically? - 

I131 A tt may have been someone who worked in the West 

~14 IWIng. but I don’t recall exact1 who told me. 

1151 Q Did vou ever tI ISCUSS it with Mr. Keatrna? 

i16j A Yes.- 

1171 Q What was that discussion about7 

A 

I:iiSusan Bro 

Well actual1 

hy and Pat G riffy 

I sent him an E-mail. I also cc’d 

In. 

t201 8 Who is Pat Griffin? 

1211 A He was the Assistant to the President for 

tz3jAff%irs office. 

(221 Le isbtive Affairs and in charge of the entire Legislative 

l.741 Q 

1251 A 

And what did you write in your E-mail? 

I have it here. Do you want me to read it? 

Page 15 

[:.assistant in the office. as well as interns, and to receive 

::.rnail from members of Con ress and from senators, to determine 

:3:what should be done with t % e marl, whether it should o to an 

[ 4 ‘agent for them to answer or should it be something 

dy 

w at the 

j 5: Presl ent answers. 

1.5; I would also draft letters if it was something that 

: - -the President should answer in conjunction with other White 

: s.House offices and other agencies who may have done an 

: : ::g?sr. 

rnal draft or I may have done an original draft of a 

So it was my responsibility to wnte letters, 

I 1:. substantive letters. 

[;:’ It was also my responsibilii to make sure that 

: : 3 .other types of letters, such as birthda letters for members 

. . : : of Con ress and senators, the wou 

) 1: letters 9 or their constituents. !& it wi basically handIng 

send letters re uesting 

I ‘. correspondence from and to the Hill. 

/.- Q Now, you said a moment ago that you supervised a 

) I~.staff assistant. That was one person? ..I ,.? A Yes. 

1:: 0 And who was that? 

._. .-A A When I first came. it was Chris Walker. .^^. 

>--. Q Okay. And after? 

‘-: 

.-- A After Chris, it was Monica Lewinsky. I^. 1-1 0 And you also supervised interns, you said? 

.-z I-. A Yes. 

Page 16 

- Q 

._ A 

Approximately how many? 

Two per semester. 

I3 Q Now, 

lJ 

ou told us that 

i .Who was your tmme rate superviso I-J 

ou also had a supervisor. 

r: .A A Tim Keatrng. 

Q Can you describe - you’ve told us basically what 

r r you do. but can you describe for the grand ‘ury the nature of 

: i your job in terms of pressure and amount o f work and hours 

: : and so on7 

i::’ A 

I : : a lot of res 

There was a lot of pressure, a lot of hours, 

onsibility because we were dealing with 

I ::. correspon s ence from Important people, dealing with letters 

I : 3’ that the President would ultimate 

r. i ‘we were grven thin s that had to 

; i 5 ultrmately delivere 8 

$8 

SI n. A lot of times, 

one immediately and then 

to the Hill. Sometimes we worked until 

I ; 6 nine. ten o’clock at night getting those types of things 

I:-“done. So a lot of pressure. 

I??: 

I I P: postiron? 

Q Were you given any particular training for this 

(2;: A None. 

ago that at some point 

[II 

Page 18 

MS. WIRTH: Yes. Yes. We can mark it as an 

[zlexhibit. 

I31 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

[II Q This is it here? 

ITi A YS 

I61 

Ilione from 

,iz!as JJ-1. 

I111 

[I21 

[I31 

j::itoday? 

a 6ii<y 

A That s mine to hrm. There’s one from him to me and 

MR. WISENBERG: All right. I’m going to mark this 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. JJ-1 was 

marked for identification.) 

BY MS. WlRTH: 

Q And. for the record. you brought that with you 

1161 A Yes. 

1171 Q Is that a document that you took with you when you 

I 1 B I left the White House? 

1191 A Yes. 

I201 Q 

A 

Can you read this to the 

!211 Oka 

12: l!o when Monica ml 7 

It says “Will some % 

rand jury? 

ody please clue me in as 

be startin ? I would prefer not to hear 

[:3]rt through the %rayrne. whit! is how I learned Chris was 

12 I 1 leavrng. Than s or the courtesy.” 

i251 0 And that was dtrected to - directly to Tim 

- 

Page 19 

I 11 Keating? 

121 A 

Q 

To Tim Keating. Yes 

j:!mentioned. Pat Griffin and Susan Broohv? 

Wti copies to those two other people I you 

isi ~A Yes. that’bcorrect. 

I61 0 And did you receive a response? 

111 A Yes. 

181 0 From whom? 

I91 A From Tim Keatin 

IlO1 0 ? as well? 

(111 A 

yoeOsyou have tha 

I121 MR. WISENBERG: I’m going to mark that as JJ-2. 

[I31 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JJ-2 was 

I141 marked for identification.) 

1151 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

I161 0 Would you agree that I have marked that as JJ-27 

[I71 A Yes. 

IlEl MR. WISENBERG: All right. 

I191 BY MS. WlRTH: 

[ZOI 0 And that is also a document that you brought with 

1211~ou or YOU took with YOU when YOU left the White House? 

rzzi- _ A Yes. _ . 

1231 Q 

A 

Can you read that to the grand ‘ury? 

:241 Yes. tt sa 1 

rzs]E-mail. H you have a pro 

s, “I did not like the 

1; 

one of your 

lem with the way the process is 

Pagel4toPagel9 
asA 

Page 20 

:: -gorng. please pick up the phone and call me.” 

._ 

.- 

;? 

2 ;;.s was also an E-marl? 

!:. Q 

A 

Did Mr. Keating cc anybody on that? 

!5 Yes. Susan Brophy and Patnck Grifhn 

:6: Q What happened next? 

[-: A I sent a re ly back by E-mail. 

I?: Q Did you a P so bring that? 

1635 

Jocelyn Jolley, 2124198 ____ _~ 

Page 23 

19. A Yes. 

:1c: MS. WIRTH: We’ll mark that as JJ-3. 

111; (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JJ-3 was 

[lz: marked for identification.) 

!I3- BY MR. WISENBERG: 

;14: Q Would you agree that I have marked this as JJ-3? 

115: A I would. 

i16: BY MS. WIRTH: 

‘17‘ Q And that is also a document that you took with you 

; 18 jwhen you left the White House? 

19: - A Yes. 

20; 

211 

2 find can you read it for the grand try? 

zz IAlthou 

I m glad we had a chance to talk hin s out. 

zsjtone o 9 

h I stand by my feelings, I truly apolqgae for Be 

my E-mail. I realize now that. rt was Inappropriate. 

24 1 Iam the type of person who holds thtn s n untrl I ex lode. 

zs:Today I exploded and I’m sorry I expl o! ed on you. f%i. Ask 

Page 21 Page 24 

[ I_ about the chip in his butt. I thin,k he had his 

[ 2 ; operatives place one in mine,therefore thts explarns my 

:3:outburst today. Love Joce 

[4: BY MR. WlSENBkRG: 

:5: 0 And that was to Timothy Keating. cc Susan Brophy 

I 6: and Patrick Griffin. is that correct? 

jJ: A That’s correct. 

iE; BY MS. WIRTH: 

191 Q Oka 

:?,to talk things out.” 

And it says here, “I’m glad we had a chance 

1: !Mr. Keahn 

bid you have a conversatron with 

._I 

--. R 

? 

We must have but I don’t recall the conversation. 

.3‘ Q Do you recall finding out anythin at all about how 

:: ‘Monrca Lewinsk 

A I believe that I heard a 

got the job as your staff assis .? ant? 

1: 

._ 

: c : grapevine, that Panetta’s office wante *8 

ain, through the 

her hired. I can’t 

: - 1 recall who exact1 told that to me. 

3 z 

. Q 

A 

What happened to Chris Walker? 

:ii,Affairs 

He got a job in the West Wing office of Legislatrve 

.-. __ Q Okay. Now, can you tell us what Monrca Lewinsky 

__ .- was like, as a person, as a worker? 

- ; 

! ;. the other 

A Asa 

fp” 

rson, I considered her as - you know, like 

oung sta en rn the White House, extreme1 

7: ‘happy to ge workrng in the White House, excited. kin 

young. 

__ dy of a 

Page 22 

real bubbly personality. She was the type of person who 

t ,wouldn’t have a problem holding a conversation with anyone. 

3 She was just really friendly. 

. As far as her work goes. she - you know, as far 

; ‘as I’m concerned, she was doing her work well. And, granted. 

; .she’d only been there a few months and when I first started, 

- I made mrstakes. so I can’t tell you anything s 

= ,that she may have done wrong, but she was 8” 

cihcally 

i the best of her ability. 

oing her job to 

., 

._ 0 And did you basically get along with her? 

1: A Yes. 

._. 

._ Q Where was her work station in relation to yours? 

: A We had an outer office. a very small outer office. 

I ii whrch her desk was rn and then right off of that was my 

: 5: offce. so we were like ten feet apart. 

:i. 0 Both in the East Wing? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, do you know whether she knew the President? 

A Whethershe knew the President? Not for a fact. 

.:3!no .?, , 

.--. .*_. 

.--, 

AQ ;;;,she ever talk about him? 

‘-3’ .- > Q 

A 

What did she say, if you remember? 

One time she sard that she had iven him a tie and 

ii! i then subsequent to giving him the he she had o ?r tarned a 

;t;z$typh-r; ou know, they have photographs all over the 

rte ouse. ut staffers can request photos from the photo 

i 5 i office. so she had gotten a photograph and hung It tn our 

‘4 lofftce. apparently he was weanng the tie that she had grven 

is 1 him and I believe the photograph was at the Tekcom bill 

: 6 1 signing tn - I think rt was January ‘96. 

r71 0 Was it a framed photograph? 

ral A Yes. 

Q And other than that, do you remember anything else 

1 izithat she said about the President? 

A Another thing that I recall rs that she had been in 

I:i;the office on a Sunday afternoon or evenrng givrn 

: 131of hers a West Wrn tour. The 

w 2 

had hnrshed the P our and 

a friend 

; I I Iwere back in our o ice in the ast Wing when ap arentl the 

tls!Presaent sto 

P 

ped by and poked his head in the s oor. ta r ked 

[ 161 to the two of hem, and she seemed kind of excited about 

[:7lthat 

..~. 1181 Q She told YOU about that? 

1191 

[201 

1211 

LZZl 

[231 

(241 

1251 

A Yes. _ 

i 2;: you were not present that Sunday? 

0 

A 

Do you know the name of her friend? 

I do not. 

Q Do ou know if it was a woman or a man? 

A I beieve it was a woman. 

III Q A young woman? 

(21 A I have no idea. 

Q Do you remember when that was, approximately? In 

I: i relation to when she started? 

I51 A I really don’t. She was there such a short time 

[sIthat everything is kind of jumbled together. 

Q Other than the tie, do you know of any other gifts 

Ii 1’ that she gaAve thepresident? 

191 

i101 Q Do you know of any gifts he gave to her? 

[Ill A No. 

Q Other than the two instances ou mentioned, the 

[ :: i instance with her giving him the tie and then r he Instance 

: I 4 Iwhere he came to visit the office, do you know of an other 

[ 1 s 1 rnteracbon between Monica Lewrnskx and the Presl .d ent, erther 

( 16 1 through heL or t$zsugh anybody else. 

:::j 

!li;I Q Tell us. 

A There came a 

ii,‘; last week that I was employe s 

oint in time I believe it was the 

, a Secret S&vice officer who 

(z:lwasve 

! 2 2 1 told me r 

nice and we were friendly. he pulled me aside and 

o watch my back. And I questioned him why would I 

I 13! have to watch my back and saying to m 

(24 lwron that I know of. So I pressed him Y, 

self I’ve done nothing 

8 

rther and he said 

[-slit ha to do with Monica. 

Page 25 

I pressed him further than that, because I wanted 

i 11 to know what the deal was and why I should be concerned if it 

f 3 lwas about Monica. So I pressed hrm further and - can I just 

[ 4 1 say something ri ht now. 

I51 0 %s? 

I61 A This - this art of m involvement here concerns 

17 1 me a tot. I promised the o & rcer tha ty I would never reveat 

(B 1 his name or what he said, so I’m - I realize that now 

[ 9 1 because I’m involved in this legally I have to reveal it. 

[ 1 o J However, I do it with trepidation. 

Q When did you make him that promise? At the time 

t :: i that you had the discussions with hrm? 

A At the time. Yes. But what he said was, and this 

i::iis after I had promised him that, you know, I wouldn’t say 

115 1 anythin 

t16jsaid tha 9 

he said, and this is the way I recollect it. he 

the President and Monica were caught smooching. 

r17jSo I was still saying, you know, what does that have to do 

[ ~srwith me? But that’s as far as the conversation went. 

1191 Q And what was that person’s name who told you this? 

1201 A His name was Maurice Henderson. 

Q And is he a uniformed Secret Service officer or 

/::;does he wear a suit? 

t231 A He was a uniformed division officer at that time. 

1241 0 And where was his normal work station? 

1251 A I believe it was the East Wing lobby. 

Page 20 to Page 25 OICStarr 
1636 

Jocelyn Jolley, 2124198 Xuul5) 

__~ ______~ ~.. - 

Page 26 Page 29 

;:; 0 

<-. ._I. A 

$%i, he’s someone you saw regularly? 

!3: Q And you had a friendly relationship with him? 

141 A Yes. 

Q Did 

Iz 1 office or juit insrde r 

ou have a relationship with him outside the 

he office? 

171 

[El 0 

No, just rnsrde. 

191 A 

F:id.you often speak to him? 

I101 

Ill1 

2 gtoqyou still keep in touch with him? 

I121 Q When was the last time ou spoke to him? 

A The day that we had tha Y conversation. 

i::iit was his last day there. He was moving on to another 

I believe 

level. What she did was - I don’t 

iisjassignment. 

I161 

I171 

2 Ez,you know where he went? 

ilS1 0 Was it outside the White House or inside the White 

i 1s j House? 

I201 A I believe it was outside. 

I.211 Q 

(221 A I beieve it was a hrs request. It was something 

Do ou know whr?, 

[23$1at he had been trying to achieve, I think. 

(241 Q Do you know why? 

I251 A No, I don’t. 

Page 27 

Q Did you tell anybod 

I: j you had with Mr. Henderson at tha 

bout that conversation that 

r. bme? 

131 A At that time, I don’t believe I did. 

I41 Q After that? 

151 A After that, I’m sure I told my family members. 

(61 Q At the time that ou had thus conversation with 

[ 7 1 Mr. Henderson did you do any&ing about it? Did you,talk to 

i 8 1 anybody about’wha 

A 

he had told you wrthout relahng hrs name? 

No, I ‘ust - I basically kept it to myself. And 

rizithen what happene d was that same week was the week that Ron 

~1 I 1 Brown died, so it was a lot of confusion, you know, just a 

[ 12 1 lot of thin s oing on in the White House and it probably 

(i5,just went?0 we back of my mind. 

Q Did you have any understanding of what you might 

! f: i have to do with Monica Lewinsky being caught with the 

i ; E j Presrdent.Low that mi 

No, I di % 

ht affect you? 

;:7; n t have any understanding of that at all. 

i:?: 0 Did it seem like a reasonable warnrng that Mr. 

t 19 ; HendersonAgav;:i. you? 

122: 

[Zl: 0 In what way? 

r-7, A I believe that what 

iI;:and that he was just tryin 

he was telling me was truthful 

14 ‘something could happen %e 

to give me a heads up that 

cause of that. 

1:: Q Happen to you? 

Page 28 

. . 1 . A Yes. 

._ Q Did he ever tell you what the basis for hrs belief 

ii, that you mAght your some consequences was? 

id: 

!5: Q 

A 

Drd you ask him? 

‘i 4 ididn’t divu 

I might have asked him in our conversation, but he 

e an 

$ cr. 

hrng further than what I’ve already sard. 

kay Now other than that conversation with Mr. 

i z i Henderson. did you ever hear anythin an talk about Monica 

: : 9 j Lewmsky Fngir&eround the West V.&g d the White House? 

[I:: 

I:-‘! 0 

A 

What did you hear and who said it? 

I heard from Ann Cattalini on our Le 

1 ii j Affairs staff that Evelyn Lieberman had been 

islatrve 

camp ?. arnrng 

[ : 5 1 about Monica hanging around the Oval Office area. 

(16’ 

117; 

Q 

A 

When did you hear that? 

That was shortlv after she started. but I can’t 

i is i recall specificall when it was.* 

Q 

iiziabout that? 

And did you have any conversations with Monica 

1211 A No. Not that I recall. 

!IZi Q What was Ann Cattalini‘s role? Was she in any way 

[~51supe~ised by ou? 

I241 A Lo. 

I.251 Q Was she at your level or above you? 

i23i 

1241 

I251 

A Uh-huh. 

0 Do you know what it means? 

A I think so. 

Page 30 

Ill 0 What does it mean? 

A It’s like a group of people maybe hanging around 

~:~someone or a certain place. 

L41 0 Did you ever hear that term used in relation to . 

t 51 Monica Lewinsky? 

i61 A No. 

Q 

ii jworking wih he+zSBvery day. 

How often didqou see Monica Lewinsky when you w 

[91 

i:tlWino? 

Q Okay. Was it part of her duties to go to the West 

il21 - A Yes. 

1131 Q How often? 

I141 A Man times a day. 

1151 0 To dy, what? 

/ : fi to 

A To take letters to the staff secretary’s office or 

! 1 e 10 fp 

ass through the West Win 

ice Buildrng to take care of e 

to go to the Old Executive 

[I91 Q 

tters getting autopenned. 

Did you personall ever see Monica Lewinsky with 

1 zo 1 the President, either alone or wR -F; others? 

I211 A No. 

I221 0 Did an 

[ 2 3 1 with the Prtden;: ert .! 

one ever tell you that they had seen her 

er alone or wrth others? 

I241 

i'51 & Q Now, tell us what happened after you received that 

____._~ ._ --.___ .~~__~ - _-__ 

Page 31 

(I Iwarning frim MLaen$rson. 

I.1 - can vou - 

Did there come’; time when something happened in 

__.. -- 

181 It was earlier in that week, that same week. 

[91 

:101 

2 Afe4fezmys before? 

[Ill Q 

A 

And how did you learn that you were fired? 

Tim Keating called both Monica and myself over to 

i::ithe West Wing. I went into - actually, at that time, it was 

(14 1 John Hilley’s office, and Tim and I were in there together 

r15land he told me that I was being ,kt go. 

!161 

1171 

2 $k~y. Was Monica m the room at the time? 

Q Did she go over with you? 

I don’t recall if she went with me or if she 

left a note on her chair to come over. 

out of the office at the time. I don’t 

Dii you know why you were being called over to the 

Page 28 to Page 31 
1637 

BY Jocelyn Jolley, 2l24198 

-___- 

Page 32 

- 

.: ,trne7 

0 Where IS Mr. Keating’s office or was tt at that 

In the West Win 

of your memory, what drd 

Page 35 

,. 

.-. A Yes. .9. Q 

i; ! that you were 

Okay. What did you say to Mr. Keating wher. ne said 

berng 

I 4 1 vour memory7 

let go for those reasons, to the best of 

._ 

A _ Not too much, because I was t 

1:8 

in to keep from 

really dtdn’t say much at all. I had as e - I 

ed to God to et me out of the White House because R 

gethng ndrcu P ous toward the end there, dealing 

and a lot of things in the office 

[lOI Q 

A 

When you say “dealing with Tim,” what do you mean? 

Well, one thing, he was keeprng us really tied to 

i :k i the office. We coukln’t go do our normal business during the 

[ 13 1 normal course of the day without - he wanted the office 

L 14 1 covered at all times and this is somethrn 

Any other issues with Mr. Keating besides that7 

A No. 

Page 33 Page 36 

! : : letters from the period of time that the budget negotiations 

12 :were going on that I still had, so I sent them over to OMB 

; 3: correspondence. Apparently, they considered that these 

I 4 : Letters were late. 

i5: 0 They, who? 

it: A They,, OMB leg affairs, I believe. So that was one 

[7:of the things Tim sard or that was, I believe. the only thin 

[ e .that he said at that time, but reply to him was, well, 0 & B 

: 9 ‘sad to hold those letters, so 

I 1; 3 somethrng that they told me to 

are they complaining about 

II.. Q Was that the first time that you heard of any 

i !I .oomplaints about that batch of letters? 

!:? A Yes. 

A I would thank about 30 letters. 

Page 34 

Q Now, you mentioned a moment ago that Mr. Keating 

also referrid to;;m;;;endance problems. 

Q Had he spoken to you previously about any 

; at?endanceApro;leps? 

i 

0 

A 

And what were they? 

Q 

What did he say or what - 

Well. tell us what the issue was. 

. A Okay. I had missed a lot of days due to illness. 

: : I’m a dtabetrc and tt wasn’t under control, so I missed a lot 

: I of days for that. My mother was having severe heart problems 

; a: the trme. she was In and out of the hos ital. I missed 

.:; days for that. So I belreve we did have ta P ks about that on 

’ : : two occasrons. dunng whrch,. you know, I told him that I 

! : - .would try to do better, I’m gout 

; : 7 omer because I know d’s bad, 

!::: A I don’t know exactly because we didn’t keep time 

i 1: and attendance records, but I’d say maybe over the 13 months 

123lthat I was there, ma be 15 to 20 da s. 

::4: Q And [his IS all In the r rme you were in the 

[~5~conespondence off&. 

[,” i Lewinsky rd hee~h?!tionnance on her job. 

Did you personally have an?y problems with Monica 

181 

[91 Q Do ou know an 

[ lojshe was told that s K e was also c ‘. 

hrng about what she was tdd when 

avrng the White House? 

illI A Just later on that afternoon when I got back to the 

, lz ~offtce, Iasked her where she was going and she said she was 

113 1 oing to the Pentagon but that she wanted to work in the 

JVli rte House, she didn’t want to work rn the Penta on. 

[151 Q And what was her demeanor at tha 9. bme? 

[161 A It appeared that she had been crying. 

[17! Q 

I I a I aoina? 

Were you also told that day where you would ba 

i19j- - A Yes 

i-‘Ol Q By Mr. Keating? 

A Yes. - 

Q In that same conversation? 

A Mm-hmm. 

0 What did he tell you? 

A He said that I was going to GSA Public Affairs 

Page 37 

(6 1 and sign-out pa r. 

0 Ed was that also true of Monica Lewinsky? Was she 

Ii ialso told to leave that day? 

A I’m not sure what she was told but I believe that 

1 iz lshe did come back the following Monday to clean out her de& 

1111 Q 

A 

How do you know that? 

i:5ioffice just to see what was 

I called one of the interns who was working in the 

oing on and one of them told ma. 

I141 Q But you left Iii at day. 

t151 A Yes. 

Q Had you ever heard of anybody in the White House 

i :7”; being let go on such short notice? 

A All I could think of was the travel office people. 

i :i i but personal knowledge of anyone else, no. 

Q Okay. Did ou discuss the reasons why you were 

i:y;being ask% toty with zl onrca Lewinsky? 

1221 

I231 Q Did you ever see her again after that day? 

I241 A No. 

(251 Q Did you ever hear anything about Evelyn Lie-n 

Page 32 to Page 37 OICStarr 
0Y __ .-_ _~_ 

Page 38 

1638 

Jocelyn Jolley, 2l24198 

_~~________~~.~ _. _ . 

Page 41 

; : 1 telling Mr. Keatmg that she had seen Momca Lewlnsky on 

: 2 Iseveral occasions walking around the West Win 

8 

7 

A I’m not sure if I knew that she ha said to Tim 

jilthat that had occurred but I did hear that she wasn? happy 

i 5 i with Monica han ing around the West Wang. 

!61 Q 

A 

dhen did you hear that? 

I would say shortly after she started I don’t 

Iii know exactly when it was. 

!91 Q 

!ioi 

Shortlv after Monica started? 

A Mm-hinm. 

III1 Q 

i121 A 

And who did you hear that from? 

Ann Cattalini and possibly from either Chris and 

; I 3 1 Stacey in the West Wing off~ce. 

:14! Q Now, when Mr. Keatin 

; 151 that 

Iy 

ou were going to have, did he te 9 I you what kind of a 

told you about the GSA job 

: 16]jOb I would be, whether it was permanent or temporary? 

A I’m not sure if he told me that at that time, but 

!:iiit was a tempora 

I191 Q 

job. 

lt%med out to be a temporary job? 

!101 A Mm-hmm. 

i:: jtiile would 

Q Did he tell 

be what the du r, 

ou what the job would entail, what the 

YS were? 

A ’ No. He ‘ust said to call - I think his name was 

I::!Bill Ratchford and Eric b odds and thev would take it from 

iisjthere. 

, 

Page 39 

111 Q Did Mr. Keating, mention Jody Torkeison in 

:: lconnectio\wlth 

t& 

our getting a job at GSA? 

111 

c-1 

[41 0 Do’ 

r 51 your gettin 

w 

that JO .g 

ou know if she had any involvement at all in 

? 

16; Not that I know of. 

I’1 Q Do you know Jody Torkelson? 

FBI A 

Q 

No. I know her by name, but personal 

Now, during that meeting with Mr. Kea Ing during 

7, no. 

i iiwhich he told you that you were going to leave. did he ask 

Z i j YOU to fill 0it an fOmlS? 

‘?‘I 4s. 

131 Q What form or forms? 

._. 

--. A I believe so. 

.-_, 

.-- Q 

__ A 

Any other forms? 

No, that’s all. 

.-- Q Was there any form that he asked you to SI n that 

: I, basically said that your move was going to be a promotion 9 o 

;,GSA? 

Page 40 

‘j : tell our stag that I was getting promoted. 

Yes. He told me that I should put on my form and 

.i: Q And when you sad put on a form, which form? 

,C. A 

c Q 

The separation form. Under the reason for le,avin$, 

._. A 

;z. So you wrote that in your own handwntlng 

Q what did you write, to the best of your memory? L’ A 

.A- Q 

I wrote promobon. 

:: ‘start there. 

Was that in fact true? In terms of salary, let’s 

.^: 

.--_ A No. it was the same salary. 

.- Q It was the same salary? 

::, A Yes. : 

.-- Q What about in terms of supervisory duties? Did you 

: : 6. have super(roduties at GSA? 

‘:-’ 

I:?‘ 0 

.i 7 promoted? 

Why did you write down that you were being 

.-.. .^_. ._“_ A Because he told me to. .-1. .--I Q Did you think that that was true or did you have 

::: ; any basis for believmg it was true? 

[:3! A Looking back on it now, no. 

;:;I Q Do you know what happened to that form? 

;:51 A It went Into my official personnel file. 

r., 

.-. 0 At the White House or GSA? I- A It was at GSA and I did request to look at that. my 

is.file. and on that form the word promobon was crossed out 

[C : you know. lined out, a line through it, and transfer was 

15 Jw-ntten next to it In someone else’s handwritrn 

1;; Q Was there an initial next to tha 9 ? 

A Not that I recall. 

18: Q 

A 

When did you see that? 

Dunng my time at GSA I would say maybe within 

I ii:first month that I was there, I requesteb to look at my 

i;;;penonnel file:. 

(121 0 Tell the grand jury what the nature of the job at 

II~IGSA was. You mentioned a moment a 3 o it turned out to be 

i 1 I 1 temporary. When did 

7 

ou find that out. 

I151 A I either ound out that day that Tim told me Or the 

116~da that I started at GSA,, which was April 10th. But the 

[ 17 1 n a! ure of the job was basIcally receptionist duties, faxing, 

I 18 ~filina. Gettina letters done, presidential letters from the 

i 19 jwhife House: 

[ZOI Q 

A 

What was the term of the job? 

i::iexceed 120 da s It Gas extended one ttrne 

Initially it was a temporary ap ointment not to 

r23]12Oday pen .ody . 

tb r another 

Q 

so for a total of eight months. 

I241 And then what happened? 

I251 A I didn’t have a job any more. I was unemployed. 

the 

Page 42 

/:!bringi 

Q Did you ever consider either makin a co 

9 (3IHouse. 

a lawsult based on your being let go from 9 he Wh 7Fintor 

I41 A I considered it, but at the time I didn’t think I 

[ 51 had anything to back up any claim, any proof or any 

[ 6 I docurnentabon. 

171 0 Did vou talk to anybody about that at the time? 

iei 

[91 

A Aboiit? 

Q About either bringing a complaint or a lawsud 

I101 A I don’t thinx so. 

[Ill Q You mentioned a few minutes ago that someone or 

I 1’ I sqme persons at OMB complained about that batch of letters. 

I 13 I Did you ever learn the names of an bod 

[ I 4 1 from OMB or an 

r” 

here else about g ow t7i 

who complained either 

[ : 5 I office of Legisla 

mgs were going n the 

A 

ive Affairs Correspondence Office? 

i : f i two months. Todd Stem who was the President’s staff 

During my entire tenure there like in the fim 

r I s I secreta 

7, 

sent both Ch& Walker and myself an E-mail about 

I ! 9 1 the trme mess of getting drafts to him. Tim had said that 

I :o I Jim Dorskind complained about our office. but he never sad 

[ 2 I I what d was about and Jim never said anything to me or anyone 

[zzlthat I know of. 

I:31 Q Who is Jim Dorskmd? 

[241 A He was the Dlrector of Presidential Correspondence. 

i-‘Sl Q And when you say Tim said Jim Dorskind complained 

Page 43 

I 1 I Tim IS Tim Keatina? 

(21 A Yes. 

[31 Q 

f 4 1 complained? 

And when did Tim tell you that Mr. Dorskind had 

[51 A 

I 61 there, so 

This was during the tie that Chris was still 

I can’t give ou an exact date, but probably within 

I 7 1 the first four months r hat I was n Congressional 

[ e 1 Correspondence. 

, ;;;comolaintsQ? Did you ever talk to Mr. Dorskind about any 

.--, , 

[Ill 

(121 

A No. 

0 Do YOU know Mr. Dorskind? 

1131 A Yes: 

Q 

I :: 1 Donkind’s complaint was 

And do you know what the specific nature of Mr. 

if it existed? 

Cl61 A 

(17 1 beyond that - 

No. All I khow is that Tim said he complained, but 

I181 Q . 

A 

Were you told what to do to fix the situation? 

/:i;immediately took action to correct the prob 

No. Any time that we ever ot a complaint. I 

9, 

(211 baslcally I was in the job without any trainin 

m because 

122 lmakc mistakes during the 9 

1 would 

riod of time, bu I never 

rz3]cqnbnued to make the mls ?e ake. I w~utd always institute s~me 

(24 1 kind of plan of action to not do that again. 

1251 Q Now, you told us a few minutes ago that Monica 

Page 38 to Page 43 
ESA _ 

1639 

Jocelyn Jo&y, X24/98 

Page 44 

[ : Lewmsky told you that she was going to the Pentagon to work, 

[r correct? 

[3: A Yes. 

14: Q Did she tell you what her job would be there? 

15: A No. 

Q Did that strike you as odd, that she would be going 

1 fj to the Pentagon? Because she was juntor to ou ri 

dy .’ 9 

ht? 

A Yes. The whole thing was od I JUS figured this 

Iii was a place that Tim had arranged and I didn’t really thank 

[ I o 1 much beyond that. 

Q Did you think she was getting treated better than 

i :: i you were in terms of the job that she 

A Possibly. I mean, I di 8 

ot? 

n’t know at the time what 

[ ::ishe was going to be doing or what I was going to be doin 

tv? 

1 

I 

I 151 mean, of course. it’s a more presti ious agency than GS 

Q Did you ever ask onlca whether her job was 

::76itemporary or permanent at the Pentagon? 

[I81 A 

Q 

No, I did not. 

I:z;presidential steward? 

Do you know anybody named Bayani Nelvis or Nel. a 

A I don’t know him, I know of him. I mean, if you 

I::;showed me a picture of him. 

(231 0 

A 

Do you know if he was friendly with Monica? 

I don’t know how friendly they were, but Monica did 

i::lsay that she had given him a Christmas present. 

Page 47 

: .wrth the Office of lnveshgative - 

._ Q February 12th thus year? 

: A This year. Yes. 

.I. Cl When you were rntervrewed by the FBI7 

‘i. 

.-. A Mm-hmm. Mm-hmrn 

- Q All ri ht. And for the record, this E-mail 

I’: -says that the subjer$ is Monica Lemnsy and Jocelyn 

: 3 ; Jo by and the text is “Both of these sta have secured 

: ? : posdrons n other federal agencres. Monica at DOD and 

: : 3 : Jocetyn at GSA.” And then it appears to say, “I need to 

: 1: 1 know if either of them is attemphng to arran e through 

: :Z : your offices positions other than tha ones a P ready arranged 

: : 3: at DOD and GSA.” 

::4: Were you making any attem 

: : 5: other than the GSA position either izz 

to get another job 

fore or after you were 

: : 6: notified that you were being let go from the Office of 

: 1-t 1 Legislative Affairs? 

.,a, 

.--. A No. 

:!9] 0 

i2OJ A 

Do you know what this memo is about? 

I don 1. but, XD” know. maybe - readrng through 

::I 1 the lines, that, you know, s e IS to be nobfied if we try - 

:33~you know, seemingly jf we try to make trouble. basically. 

['3! Q Try to get back into the White House? 

I241 A Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

I351 0 Since the Monica Lewinsky story has broken in the 

Page 45 

III Q She told you that? 

[2: A Mm-hmm. 

(3: Q 

A 

IN what context did that come up? 

I think we were just - the interns myself and 

i: i Monica were in the office talking, I don’t know what the 

I 6 I subject was, but she did indicate that she had given him a 

;7 1 Christmas present. 

[slwhat it was. 

She didn’t say what or I don’t recall 

I91 Q And that would be Christmas ‘95? 

1:0; A Yes. 

1?1] Q Did you ever see them together, Monica and Nel? 

[!! A No. 

l13! 0 Do you know anything else about their relationship? 

114: A I do not. 

1:s: Q Did anyone other than Mr. Keating discuss with you 

; 1 iI why you wire betng fired from the Whrte House? 

i!‘. No. 

!:i. Q Okay. Do 

; : ? 1 that you were let o from t 

ou now have an opinion as to why it is 

I_‘: Correspondence &ice? ’ 

e Office of Legislative Affairs 

A Yes. 

Page 48 Page 49 

it : to keep whatever was 

Q 9, 

oing on with Monica uiet. 

.7 Do you now why Susan Brop y didn’t want you in 

: F that job7 ird anyone ever te1.l you? 

7l 

:‘ I don t know If anyone ever told me, but basrcally 

._ - ‘sensor people like to bnng in their own people. I wasn’t 

: : her person I was Lorraine Miller’s person. So you know 

:: ; she may have had some animosity toward me because of that. 

13 MS. WIRTH: 

14 : whrch we’ll mark as JJ-4. 

I’m going to show you another E-mail 

15 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JJ-4 was 

i6; marked for identification.) 

I-’ 

. BY MS. WIRTH: 

19‘ Q I’m gorn 

I P 1 E-mail. creator Jody R. $ 

to ask you to look at it. It’s an 

orkelson to Bob Nash and to Patsy 

20 IThomasson and n’s dated April 9. 1996. Can you just look at 

: I! It for a moment and tell us whether you’ve ever seen it 

33 1 before? 

[331 A Yes, I’ve seen it. 

[241 Q When did you see it? 

[351 A On February 12th when one of the FBI investigators 

: : ; domg. 

,... Q Did you discuss with hn during that phone call 

i 3 j reasons w;y yo;othought you were fired? 

:4; 

:5i Q 

t E ‘Mr. Walker? 

Have you spoken to anybody else other than 

i7; 

i 5 j You 

A 

know, 

Yes. I talked to my formar boss, Lorraine Miller. 

we kept up a friendship snce both of us have left 

: 91 the White House. And I ‘ust called her because it was 

: : 3 ; surpnsing that. this story il ad broken. We were just 

: : : basically gosslplng about the story. 1._1> i--, Q Anybody else? 

::3j A No. 

::41 Q 

!iS] A 

Has anybody from the White House contacted you? * 

No. 

!i6; Q You brought some documents with 

: I-) 1 than the three E-mails that we’ve already marked, 

ou today. Other 

[I P 1 other documents? 

i o you have 

1191 A These are just soma things that I had in my office 

!; o I when I left and one is her resume, whrch was faxed to me by 

1211the intern office. 

[ZZi 0 This is Monica’s resume? 

!23! A Mm-hmm. And then there’s something, a document 

124 !that I signed that Monica witnessed. And then there IS ‘ust 

I z 5 I some handwritten notes that I made of what Monica’s d. ubes 

Page 48 

! : ! news a proximately a month or so ago, have you spoken to 

;3 1 art&y a;theW$te House? 

i3! 

!I: 0 

A 

Who have you spoken to? 

t z; story broke or the day after. 

I called Chns Walker. I think it was the day the 

I71 Q 

:31 A 

What’s his job now? 

He has my job now. He’s Director of Congressional 

! 9 I Correspondence. 

;:0: Q 

A 

And why did you call him? 

‘7:’ I felt Chris had stabbed me in the back, basicalty, 

I iz i and I was just calling him to let him know that I’m here, I’m 

: : I 1 out here, and that, you know, basicalty it was vindictiveness 

:;i.on my part. 

‘.i’ 

--. Q 

A 

When you say stabbed in the back,, how? 

0 I mean, I have no wa of proving thus. but I fee.1 

j i -. that once he was over in the West v+ rng that he was - you 

‘:3tknow. telling Tim, Susan and John bad thin 

: : sibecause he was that type of person. I felt t a 

s about me, 

at he had been 

: 2 3 ; trying all along to get my job. 

._. 

.-._ Q Okay. And what about the Monica Lewinsky story 

;:r.prompted YOU to make the phone call. thouah? .:?: A Just the fact that, you know,-what was being 

:: 4 I alleged. We didn’t talk about it dun 

::5 :just asked him how he was dorng a z/ 

the phone call. I 

he asked me how I was 

Page.44 t0 Page 49 OlCStan 
1640 

Page 50 

; : : were and I’ve got ML for her initials. what my duties were 

‘: :wrth m 

:j:dO an d 

initials and then what both of us were responsrble to 

the Interns. And this is something I had done 

: : ;probably ri ht after she started. 

1:‘ ?- hrs IS another handwritten note about doing 

i if letters, political letters, or actually not doing political 

[ 7 1 ktters on White, House equipment. Her name is not on here or 

(8 ianything, but thts was her - she was responsible for doing 

1 slthese letters. 

IIO! MS. WIRTH: .--. Could I iust look at those for a 

[Illminute? 

(‘2: THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm. 

MS. WIRTH: Okay. We’re going to mark these two 

ii: i small pieces of paper on White House note pad stationery as 

[ls]JJ-5and6. 

116! BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Would you agree that I’m marking the one in kind of 

I : i { black ink as JJ-5? 

[19! A Yes. 

iz 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. JJ-5 was 

marked for identification.) 

I221 BY MR. WlSENBERG: 

Cl And the one with blue ink as JJ-6? And it’s got 

/z: 1 writing on each side correct? 

I251 A That’s correct. 

Page 53 

;: ithrough fiv;. is+tti. correct? 

,^, I-. 

Q And they say “Political Saence” and they saf 

iii 16118/96. the first one IS 1167 the next two are 1168 and ’ 

[s 1 the next IS 1169 rn terms of the time of day. Is that 

[6]mmecf? 

[71 A That’s correct. 

Q All nght. We’ll mark these JJ-8A. We’ll man the 

i:iwhole document as - I’ve changed my mtnd. We’re going to 

rlolrnark it as JJ-9. That whole four-page document is going to 

[~llbe JJ-9. Is that correct? 

[121 A That’s correct. 

1131 (Grand Jurv Exhibit No. 33-9 was 

i14; inarked foiidentificabon. 

(151 MR. WtSENBERG: Okay. w’ e’ll take our break 

1161 A ten-mrnute break? 

[l-J1 THE FOREPERSON: Fifteen. 

MR. WISENBERG: A fifteen-minute break and we’ll be 

i:i;back with ‘ust a few more questions. 

I201 k WIRTH: 

1211 

You ca~~tetgwt.s~lees be excuscb? 

c2:1 KkKkf&%Z%N: Jes* she may. 

I231 

t241 

~rblls.e$$JJ~ERA$ess nCall.4.) 

(251 0 You’re the same Ms. Joltey who has been testrfying 

Page 51 

0 

iilwith blue ink? 

And would you agree I’ve marked that JJ-6. the one 

I31 A Yes. 

I41 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JJ-5 was 

[51 marked for identication.) 

MS. WlRTH: Okay. And then we’ll mark as JJ-7 this 

1: i two-page document which is a fax cover sheet and a resume of 

1 s IMonrca Lewinsk 

I91 BY Ms. WTSENBERG: 

[iJ: 0 I’m going to mark the first page as 7 and the 

[ : I isecond as 7A. Would you agree that I’ve marked the fax cover 

r:zlsheet as JJ-7? 

113: A Yes. 

ii;. (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JJ-7 was 

i:5‘ marked for identification.) 

:;i BY MR. WISENBERG: 1 - / . Q 

..:: 

And the resume itself as JJ-7A? 

,-- A Yes. I , r_ 

,. (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JJ-7A was 

,-a __ marked for identification.) ^. 

__ THE FOREPERSON: 

:I: ;grand jury to take a break. 

Excuse me. It’s time for the 

1-y 

,!;,done. 

MS. WIRTH: When we mark this document, I’ll be 

!I:’ THE FOREPERSON: Okay. 

Page 52 

- MS. WIRTH: And then finally as JJ-8A. B. C. D,. E 

I ,we’ll mark thus document that Monica Lewinskv witnessed wrth 

: : ‘the attachment. 

: BY MR. WlSENBERG: 

I:. 

- Q Let me just ask you, this is - she witnessed 

I 6 thrs - I want to make sure we’re talking about - are these 

: - :drfferent documents? 

,z- A Actually, this is the document that the release is 

;; refernng to, so you may not need that. She just witnessed 

: : I ‘my stgnature on this document. 

,-- MR. WISENBERG: 

1: : me mark thus as JJ-8. 

Okay. All right, All right. Let 

i : ; (Grand Jury Exhibit No. JJ-8 was 

:1i; marked for identification.) 

!!5’ BY MR. WISENBERG: 

1161 Q And this is a document that Monica signed, correct? 

!i’: A Yes. As a witness. 

19: Q As a wrtness. This had to do with the separate 

I 4 Isheet here, “Careers In Politics”? What’s the nslationshrp 

20 ! between JJ-8 and these? 

711 A That is the document that is referred to in this 

- --. - I release. But she has nothin to do with that document. 

?3! Q Atl npht. An 8 that document that& being referred 

? 4 I to in the release IS our pages and at the top of each page 

2 s 1 there’s a fax notation that says - it’s pages numbered two 

Page 54 

I .~, 1 I here all momina? 

121 A Yes. 

Q Okay. I want to get a wupk of things. I think 

i:iwe just have a few more questions before we excuse you. You 

[ 51 mentioned Lorraine Miller. When 

I 6 ioffice of Legislative Affairs as a 

ou first went over to 

S ty aff assistant. she was 

i 7 j your supervisor? 

181 A Yes. 

I91 Q And she had actually brought you over from the 

[I81 A That’s correct. 

[I91 Q Did you all get along? 

1201 A Yes. 

[?I1 Q She was happy with your work? 

1221 A Yes. 

(231 Q 

[ 24 ltwo years that 

Okay. Were you disciplined in any way dunng those 

ou worked for her? 

1251 A Lo. 

Ill 

,?I 

_ _._ _-___ 

Page 55 

2 iz;,“u never got written up for anything? 

.-. 

1 :i anything? 

0 Okay. Did you have to be wunselled about 

151 -A No. 

$2 All ht. You mentioned this Chris Walker you 

i 7”; thought mrqht have% n enga 9 

[a 1 took your p ace, IS that correct. 

ed in some back stabbing. He 

I91 A Yes. 

0 Was he ever criticized? Are you aware of any I:: jcriticisms of him during the time that you were working in 

r12jthe Office of Legislative Affairs? 

A I 

P 

revrousl 

I :: i which was sent o both 

mentioned an E-mail from Todd Stem 

C x. ns and myself about the timeliness 

[ 151 of the work. Other things that happened durin 

[ I 6 1 there - I mean, we were both criticized for ce 8. 

my tenure 

am thrngs 

117 J that we drd rnwrrectty during the time we were both there. 

Q 

~:~~talking about? 

And when you say there, where exactly are you 

I201 A Congressional Correspondence. 

Q Oka 

I::\sav both there, did t, 

In Congressional Correspondence. When you 

work for you before Monrca did? 

i23j - A Yes. 

I241 Q Oka 

1251 he goes over to the 

OlCStarr 

- -- .____. 

Page 50 to Page 55 
1641 

asA 

_ 

Jocelyn Jolley, 2124198 XMAx(l0) 

Page 56 

A Mm-hmm. 

._- 

.-a Q He ends up replacing you, is that correct? 

:3: A Yes. 

14: Q Okay. And were these - okay. You said that 

: 5 1 you - you. were talkrng about how Monica came to work for you 

: 6 1 and you krnd of heard it through the grapevine, is that 

::~correct? 

!91 A Yes. 

191 Q 

; 10 1 role in selecti 

So I take it from that that you had absolutely no 

her. 

!I11 A “Ro. 

::2; 0 Did you that surprise you, when you got an 

: :3 1 assistant and you had no role in selectin her? 

A Yes. Very much so. I ha %. rntervrewed Chris and 

i i:i some other people when I first started in Congressronal 

I: 6 1 Correspondence and then I found out after I left that when 

[ ;T 1 Chris came over, he was interviewing people to be his 

is that-when was he interviewing? You mean 

Okay, Did you have any role in picking him as your 

~23lassistant ;hen$~sortgrnally started as your assistant 

I241 ,751 

,- > Q Okay. You had a role in picking him, when he took 

Page 57 

I: !your .ob he had a role in picking his assistant, but Monica 

: z ! was 

A ’ A ‘Yes. 

asrcally just handed to you, is that correct? 

:31 

Now, when you were fired,_ and that’s 

aractenzing it as fired, on Apnl5. 

A Yes. 

!3! Q I take it that you were surprised. 

‘c,> ,-. A Yes. 

:::I 

:::jhappen to 

Q Did you have any inkling of what was about to 

. ...> h--I x 

OUT 

None whatsoever. 

::31 Q Okay Other than, I guess, in retrospect, what 

_, ’ : Maurice Hrdeyrreos7 told you. 

.‘Z‘ -2, _. 

_ I Q You mentioned that at some point in time Tim 

: -: Keating had said that this fellow Donkind had complarned 

: :. about somethtn Do you recall that? 

> .- A ?es. 

0 Did Mr. Keating repeat that information about 

: E I: Dorskind T thkpy that he fired you? 

.__ 

.-- 

Q You said there had been some criticisms of your 

‘!; -absences when 

I: -Mr Keahng. Is t 6 

ou were in Congressional Correspondence by 

at correct? 

Page 58 

. A Yes. 

._ Q Other than what you’ve told us about, the absences, 

i. I think vou mentloned thus Incident with Office of Manaaement 

‘4 Budgef correspondence and I think you mentioned thafyou were 

=. told something about Dorskind. any other major complarnts 

‘~‘about your work’ 

._. A 

J Idunn 

One thing that happened was - and I think this was 

the time Chns was there, we sent a lot of letters 

;.over 9 or the Presrdent’s signature and this must have been, 

: : : you know, close to when we first started, but we had the 

-wrong salutation. We had “Dear Representative” whoever for 

j ! f ‘everyone. whether they were a Democrat or Republican and then 

:: Tim got all upset because he said, “Haven’t you looked at the 

; : : : salutation list’” Because the Democrats were supposed to be 

; : :.addressed as “Dear” and their first name and we’re like what 

,.- . :. salutation list? 

; : - 1 something that we 

i-2, ,--. 

j : ; : when you were tn [ 1 3 ; 

._. 

.--, Q As far as you know, had you been warned. you do 

: r 2 : such and such aoan. vou’re aoina to be fired? 

c-2. 

~--a A Not at ill. - - 

i24: 0 Was there actually a written - you know, sometimes 

: r 5 ; you can be told orally don’t do something or someone can send 

Page 59 

; : jyou an E-mail, you’ve read this one. I didn’t like the tone 

:2 I of what you said, was there any formal wntten reprimand of 

;31you? 

!4! A 

Q 

Nothing at all. Nothing. 

!5’ Okay. Do ou get evaluated when you’re at the 

[ 6 #&rite House like in a year r y employee evaluation? 

iijseemed 

A Well. I can’t speak for everyone there, but it 

- it appears that presidential a 

[ 91 under the regular crvil service system.. t R pointees are not 

erefore. those in 

[lolmy office, you know, we didn’t keep time. we never were under 

rl~lthe yearly 

I T- Ithat 

performance appraisal system or anything like 

j* _,-.._.. 

ii31 MR. WISENBERG: 

rlrlexhibit. This is JJ-10. 

Okay. Let me give you another 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. JJ-10 was 

1161 marked foiidentficatron.) 

1171 BY MR. WlSENBERG: iisi Q Ms. Worth showed you,an exhibit, an E-mail from 

r I 9 I Jody Torkelson and thus appears like rt mrght be - and 

[ 2 o 1 that s JJ4, and that’s the one you looked at that said 

121 ~“Both of these staff have secured positions in other federal 

122 jagencies, Monica at DOD and Jocetyn at GSA. I need to know 

t23jdeither of them is attemptin 

124 ]offices 

to arran e through your 

sp” 

sitions other than t 3, e ones a 9 ready arranged at DOD 

rzsland G A. Thanks.” You remember we read that earlier? And 

I I 1 that’s from Jody Torkelson to Bob Nash and Patsy Thomasson 

I r‘ I Is that correct? 

Page 60 

.~, 

131 A Yes. 

[41 Q And the date ap an to be - the time appears to 

[ s 1 be 11:43 that Jody Torkelson. i?&s sheet is correct, sent 

[ 6 I that. 

[71 

Is thit CO~~~? 

I81 Q Here is one, JJ-10. It appears that it might be a 

[ 9 1 response because it says “Creation Time 12:05.” Is that 

rlolcorrect? 

IIll A Yes. 

1121 Q And it’s from Patsy Thomasson, correct? 

[I31 A Yes. 

!I41 Q And could 

I151 A “Bob and I r, 

ou read that to the grand jury? 

ave been working with Tim on placing 

i 16 I these two people. We are working closely wrth DOD to make 

[ 17 1 this happen for Monica. We have not finalized a deal but are 

I 19 1 working toward that end. Monica is coming in to see me today 

[ 1 z, 1 pursuant to Tim’s request of me. Our direction is to make 

i 20 I sure she has a job in an agency. We are working toward that 

131 ,__,-..-. lend Patsv” __- 

[221 Q Okay. And th$ heading is “Subject: Re: Monica 

[ 2 3 1 Lewinsky “ad JveT,yn Jolley. 

!24; 

[‘5! Q It looks like it could be a response to the earlier 

Page 61 

(11 thing you zad,yett7 IS JJ4. Is that correct? 

[?I 

131 Q Did you ever go in to meet with Patsy? 

[41 A No. 

[51 Q When did you actually - do you remember when you 

[ 6 I actually showed up at GSA to work? 

[71 A 

IB! nQ 

It was Apl 10th. 

vo,k,“y. o five days afler you were fired? 

101 

,A/ 

1101 MR. WISENBERG: Oka 

I?11 THE FOREPERSON: W&en you were out during your 

1 II 1 illnesses, did you ever get a notification from your doctor 

[ I 3 I of when you were okay to return to work that YOU oresented to 

I I 4 1 anyone?- 

. . 

I151 THE WITNESS: I don’t believe that I did. I did 

[ 16 ] see,my doctor on occasion. 

[17$seltn 

On occasion, I was just home not 

tlslaske8for. 

well. But that was nothing that my superiors ever 

[I91 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q You said that on 

i:y;Mr. Keating convinced you to pu r 

our separation form that 

j22 1 a reason fz laa;tsy. 

that you were promoted as 

Is that correct? 

[231 

[241 Q But I just want to make sure I understand. You 

[25]were not - I think you said it wasn’t an increase in salary. 

Page 56.to Page 61 -_~____~ OlCStarr 
1642 

B!u Jocetvn Jollev. 2/24/98 

. . XMAxfllI 

Page 62 Page 65 

. 

.-, A Correct. 

._)- 

.-, Q And, In fact, it was a decrease in responsibility 

:3: A Yes. 

:4; Q Did you seek the job at GSA? 

:5: A No. 

167 Q You didn’t o out and say I’m looking for greener 

:: j pastures. I want to go to 8 

A 

SA. away from the White House? 

That s correct. I even asked Tim if there was 

1 ij somewhere else I could o and he said ‘No. this is what I’ve 

;:ojarranged for you,” somet 8. mg to that effect. 

iLlI Q 

~:2laxmct? 

You considered yourself to have been fired, is that 

.--. 

::3; A Yes. 

“4, Q If we could et a hold of this separation form. 

i.jiwould you be able to ident 

! I 6: handwritin 

& your own pnnting or 

on the word promotion? 

:171 R Yes. 

; 1: had onty been there four months? You know, she wasn’t 

Page 63 

12 1 responsible for the mistakes. 

:31 0 Oka 

[ 4 1 anybody ep w$it KA 

But you did not raise with Keating or 

r. Henderson had told you. 

;51 

!6! Q And, of course, he had told you under conftience 

;71 A Yes. 

i31 Q You said that you called Chris Walker when this 

! gjthing hit the airwaves, is that correct? 

!lOl - A Mm-hmm. 

;::i 0 And, if I heard you comzctly ou say your call 

1:: Iwas prompted b vrndictiveness on your pa ? 

A Mm-hmm. 

*x 

:131 

::I: Q 

::51 A 

fCsf of to let him know you’re out there? 

::i1 0 

: ~7: him a call, 

Did you say anything explicitly to him or just gave 

hi. how are you, or what. “i‘ .-7, A Yes. Basically, hi, how are you? I had a big 

:: ;:smib on my face You know, he, of course, couldn’t see 

::: : that. but - you know, I felt that he probably knew why I was 

:2:~callmg 

.~_. 

,--. Q Okay. And why were you? When you say it was 

: I 3 ; prompted by vrndictrveness. I mean. what do you mean? Why 

::q :drd you call him? If ou can articulate it for us. 

._=. 

,--. A Just I? rnd of to get back a lrttle bit for what I 

.- Q And you didn’t hear it through scuttlebutt? 

-. A No, I did not. 

‘3: Q And you didn’t see any event or hear about 

i : : any event that led you to conclude there mght be a 

: 5 1 relationship. 

:6; A No. .-I> Q Okay. You also said that since the story 

f 3 i has broken you have spoken to Lorraine Mrller, is that 

:3!correct? 

:::; A Yes. 

iI:] Q Did you and Lorraine Miller talk about the warning 

:z]you got from Maurice Henderson? 

::3f - A No. 

c:4: Q Is there anything you think - any relevant 

I: 5: information YOU have that YOU haven’t shared wrth us here 

r-i,:todavo 

.--J----a 

r-7 

.- : A Not that I can think of. 

i:Si MR. WISENBERG: Are there any questions before I 

[ 13 1 give the witness her final admonition? 

[201 

[Zil t".response& R WISENB RG: 

(22 I peace. 

Speak now or forever hold your 

1231. Yes, ma’am? 

r24i A JUROR: Did you ask Mr. Henderson how he heard 

rzsjthat Monica and the President were smooching? 

;I! THE WITNESS: 

Page 66 

I did not ask him that. No. 

iZ’ 

[ 3 j smoochin 

A JUROR: 

? 

Have you heard anything more about the 

!41 T HE WITNESS: 

: 5 1 all that he would say. 

I believe I asked him, but that wa’s 

I mean, he was telling me something 

! 6 I that he apparently wasn’t sup 

~7 I our relabonship he did do tha P 

osed to tell me, but because of 

as a warning. but - you 

is 1 know, maybe It’s a grapevine within the Secret Service. I 

; s 1 don’t know. 

I:31 BY MR. WlSENBERG: 

Q Did you find that plausible when he said that? 

I ii j Did you find it believable or were you utteriy surprised 

r:z:when he said that the President and Monica had been caught 

; : 4 : smoochin ? 1. :. 

.--. 54 I was surprised, but - I mean, out of an 

: : 6 : the White House, I would believe something the Secre r 

body in 

;:-:told me. 

Servrce 

[If‘ Q Okay. I guess that could be an event, if that 

i I P; were true, that could lead you to believe there might be a 

[:: : relationshi 

1::: 1 

if they had been caught kissing. 

Q 

To me, that’s not necessarily a relationship. 

I% i friendly to somebody. 

All right. It could just be the President berng 

~24:mouth. 

I don’t want to put words in your 

A Mm-hmm 

Page 64 

: : :felt was done to me, that I was treated badly. I didn’t know 

: 2 : if anyone on staff knew about any other rumors or alle ahons 

: 3 i about Monrca because I never spoke to any of them a % out that 

: 4 : the day I was fired or thereafter, so I cant - 

: 5 Idon’t know if it was going around the White x 

ou know, I 

ouse that the 

: 6: reason she was let go and I was let 

: 7 1 because of what Mr. Henderson sar 3 

o was because of her, 

rj, Q You didn’t know that because you were out right 

: ; iawav. is that correct? 

.._, - 

..“. A Yes. 

y-s MR. WISENBERG: 

: :; ; Mr. Joseph is enterin 

Let the record reflect that 

the 

BY MR. W&ENf?ERG: 

rand jury room. 

::5: 

i20’ 0 Had you heard anything about an 

:: I j about a relationsh,ip. romantic or sexual relations K, 

rumors of any kind 

r-- ibetween MA”. LeTsky and the President? 

IP, 

.-- 

.??I .--, 

;24: 

(251 

0 She didn’t tell you that? 

A No. 

Page 67 

r,. 

.-_ 0 

:; : relationshi 

That wouldn’t necessarily mean there was a 

is that what you’re saying? 

(-41 1 Yea 

L.-. 

Q &: 

/l i I’m going to say tha r. 

I don’t see any further questions. 

It’s not unwmmon that peo le 

: 6; appearipg before the grand ju 

r 

will later remem Ie r 

[ 7 ~somethng that’s relevant that hey’ve forgotten to 

! 9 : tell us about. 

(13: MR. WISENBERG: All rioht. If there are no further 

I 14 :questions, 

.~ -._ _._ 

ma the witness be excusgddi 

1151 THl?FOREPERSON: Yes she may. 

[16; MR. WtSENBERG: Thank’you ve 

c17: THE WITNESS: r 

much. 

r 1s jthe last one ou showed me? 

Is there any way can get a copy of 

1191 Ms. WlSENBERG: Pardon? 

THE WITNESS: 

$f{of the last memo 

Is there any way I could get a copy 

ou showed me? 

I22! MR. w&ENBERG: 

[z3]about that. Probab 

x 

not. 

1’11 have to speak to your attorney 

1241 THE WIT ESS: Okay. Okay. 

r251 MR. WISENBERG: All right. 

oicstarr Page 62 to Page 67 
1643 

asA 

Page 68 

Jocelyn Jolley, 2124l98 UUYW 

. . . .-: 

._. 

THE FOREPERSON: T-;-k;F you. 

MR. WISENBERG: 

‘1 

;3; 

!9: 

11’113 *-“> 

;:1; 

1::: 

.‘3* ,- , 

i111 

[15j 

L1.51 

I:71 

I'B! 

[19! 

I201 

r2:1 

1221 

1231 

I241 

[251 

Page 68% Page 68 OlC-St;ilT 
1644 

EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT 

lo-Nov-1995 11:51am 

TO: Timothy J. Keating 

FROM: Jocelyn M. Jolley 

'Office of Legislative Affairs 

cc: 

cc: 

Susan Brophy 

Patrick J. Griffin 

SUBJECT: Staff Assistant 

will somebody please clue me in as to when Monica will be _ 

starting? 

I'd prefer not to hear it through the grapevine which is how I 

learned Chris was leaving. 

Thanks for the courtesy. 
1645 

EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT 

lo-Nov-1995 03:Olpm 

TO: Jocelyn Irl. Jolley 

FROM: Timothy 3. Keating 

Office of Legislative Affairs 

cc: Susan Brophy 

cc: Patrick J. Griffin 

SUBJECT: RE: Staff Assistant 

I did not like the tone of your e-mail, If you have a problem with 

the way the process is going please pick up the phone and call me! 
1646 

EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT 

lo-Nov-1995 05:37pm 

TO: Timothy J. Keating 

FROM: Jocelyn M. Jolley 

'Office of Legislative Affairs 

cc: 

cc: 

Susan Brophy 

Patrick J. Griffin 

SUBJECT: HE: Staff Assistant 

I'm glad we had a chance to talk things out. 

my feelings, 

Although I stand by 

I truly apologize for the tone of my e-mail. I 

realize now that it was inappropriate. 

holds things in until I explode. 

I'm the type of person who 

I exploded on you. 

Today, I exploded and I'm sorry 

P.S. Ask 1 about the chip in his butt. I think he had 

his operatives place one in mine, 

outburst today. 

therefore this explains my 

Love, 

Jocey 
1647 

RECORD TYPE: PRESIDENTIAL (ALL-IN-1 HAIL) 

I 

CREATOR:Jodie R. Torkelson ( m 1 _) -* 

CREATION DATE/TIME: 9-APR.-l996 11:43:26.25 

SUBJECT:Manica Lewinsky and Jocalyn Jolhy 

--. -a_ -.._~.“___ . 

f5:Bob J. Nash (-)m 

READ: 9-APR-1996 20:34:57.14 

f5:Patsy L. Thomasson 

READ: 9-APR-1996 11:58:42.61 

TEXT: 

Both of these staff have secured Positioiw in sther federal 

agencies: Monica at DOD and Jocelyn at.6~~. - 

; r.,ad tc X,icn :f aithap of thca is attwapting to arrwqe +hrough 

your offices positions other than the ones already arranged at DOD 

and GSA. 

Thanks. 
1648 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 
1649 

. 
1650 

IVUV UY 1;: L :44 licij .UUl I- .Ul 

THE WHITE HOUsE 

The White House Intern Program 

Oid Executive Office Building 

Room 4 

W~hin~~~, DC 20500 

Tel: 202-456-2742 

Fax: 202-456-5 123 

FAX COVER SHEET 

DATE: \I!4 

PLEASE DELIVER TO; ..- 

OFFICE: -- 

. . FAX NUMBER: g$ 

5 

NUMBER OF PAGES: 

(Including cover sheet) 

_- 2- 

COMMENTS: 

-w 

-. 

---- - 

_.------_I 

‘me &pcwcnt accompanying this l:acsimilc Tnnsmittrt Sheet is inrcndcd u111y Cur the WC of the issrdividurl entity 

to whnm it is addrcsscd. ‘Thin message contsins infnmwtion which nrrp bc privilqcd. confidential, or ~xcmpt from 

disclosure under appticahlc law. Iltho reader of this rncssatte is ntlt the intcndcd recipient, or ttte employet or agent 

rcspnsiblc for dclivcring the mcssagc to the intcndcd rccipicnt. you nrc hcrcby notified that any diiclosure, 

dis~m~~ti~n~ cnpyipg or distribution, or taking of any action in rcliancc on the contcnu of this communication is 

strictly prohihitcd. If you have rcccivcd thts conlrvrunication in error. ple,n?rc ratify US immedistcly at 20246-2742. 
%__. 1651 

EdUCati0l.I: 

Lewis and Clark College Portland, Oregon 

Ba&;1g5qfScitwe in Psyciwlo~ 

Tbe White House Wasshiogton, D.C. 

Summer Intern C$ice of the Chief of Sk& SUIIIUXX 1995 

Drafted form ktters and individual nsponses for the Cl&f of Staffs signature, 

-arched various Administrative issues and pokies such as afknative action. 

Medicare. Medicaid, and the Presibcnt’~ new budget px+d. Super~ieod and 

dated intun and volunteer sWon daily activities. Acted as the liaison for chief 

of Staff3 offsce to other White House offices, Cabinet agencies, antI Con~sioaal 

0m=s. 

Metropoiitan Public Defenclers Portland, Ckegon 

Altenurtives St@, February - May 19% 

lmpicmcntcd new psychology expert mferencc techniques. Ixvised new 

questionnti. Assisted attorneys in finding viabk aluzmativos to prison for their 

clients. JJiwXed clients in successful search of suppolt, shelter. food, and 

won. Updated f& on resource materials. 

Southeast Ment.4 Health Network (Prsticum) Portland, Oregon 

S&aIkzrbn StqfAssistant, January - June 1994 

Assisted staff in teaching socialization ddls to mentally ill clients to ease their 

integration back into socic-ly. Filed and updated clients’ cotidential reports. Evahaawd 

attcncbcc statistics to prqafc for monthly reports. DeVeloped activities for clients. 

coordinated fund raising to benefit exba+utricular thtatrt activitks. 

Knot Shop Podand, Oregon l Century City. California 

Sales Associate. 199 1 - 1995 

Sold and marketed men’s haberdashery. Counted tk money in the register Qawa. 

ts to ensuE consistency bctwetn the sales and the iIlventofy. 

=pofi detailing items per customer, multiple 

Designed creative display of mcrcbandii. 

daily activities to district manago;. 

Beverly Hils High School Beverly Hills, California 

A&stunt to the Cosnune Designer, September 1992 - June 1993 

Designed and COIWUC~~ costumes for theatrt prxxktions. Detailed costume plots for 

each character. Organizczi costumes before C2ich performance. Acted as liaison 

between Costume Designer and students. 

Skills: 

. 

l 

0 

. 

Proficient in Macintosh for Microsoft Word 6.0 and Exoel, Word F’mfect for 

Windows 5.2, Quom, Infosys. 

Excellent inteqxxsod and communication skills. 

strong organbational and detailsriented skills. 

Exceptional cnzative abilities. 
1652 

simplified Adult Release 

I hereby give William Lasser the absolute and irrevocable 

and permission, with respect to the attached "Careers in 

Politics" feature, 

right 

(a) To copyright the same in his own name or any other name 

that he may choose. 

(b) TO use, re-use, publish and re publish the same in whole 

or in part, in any medium and for any purpose whatsoever, 

excluding illustration, promotion, and advertising and 

trade. 

This authorization and release shall also inure to the benefit of 

the legal representatives, licensees and assigns of William 

Lasser. 

I have read the attached "Careers in Politics8V feature and I 

approve it with any changes as indicated. I understand that 

minor changes might be necessary in final editing. 

I am over the age of twenty-one. I have read the foregoing and 

fully understand the contents thereof. 
1653 

-. ______ 

Chapter 13 

CAREBRS IN POUTES 

Jocelyn Joliey 

-or of Legislative Correspondence 

Offk+c of LcgisIative Affairs 

The White House 

B~~~round. Born, Wonton, DC. B.A., economics, Prrrncis Mu-ion C~llcgc. 

Current sx!sponsib~itie!B* “All mail that comes {to the White House] &om 

congresspersons or senators comes throu& my office. And I’m responsible for making 

sure that every&h&g gets a timely response fiOm the president. * . . We’re kind of 8 

Gustomcr service organization on behalf of the presidenk- we try to take cart of mem#xrs 

of Congress and their concerns. Wc consider the Hill our ~n~tu~~~ ealt our 

of&x, they’ll want copies of tho president’s speech, or some member may cali pcraonally 

and want lo speak to one of the senior staff’ people bccawe he’s havinlt~ trouble with a 

project in his districP 
What it’s fikc to work in ihe White HOast. "Ws pretty nice. A lot of people think that 

you work in this palatial environment, that you see the president every day-that’s not true. 

I consider the White Houw Lw just a govcrnmcnl building, just like any orhcr govemmcnt 

buiiding. . . . But it is very humbling to work there. I don’t see the president every day, 

Ii’m a low-level staffer, so I don’t attmd meetings with him. But just walking through the 

White Home, every now and then 1 have to pinch myself, and say ‘am I really this lucky to 

be able to work here?’ _ _ _ Just walking around doing a task you may run into the 

Secretary of State or the Secretary of Commerce. . . or the Vice President. . . pl’ou’re] 

working in an crxvironmcnt wbcrc rc vuy intelligent, smart ptople arc working on behalf of 

the president.” 

h~gb~~gb~ of tbe job. “The knowkxldgc t.ha.x I’ve @ned just be@ in rhat type of 

cnvirorune-nt. . . behq3 on the h?ading edge of what’s happening in our country. . . . Bcq 

able to attend the president’s first staie of the Union address-that was a thrill for mu. 1 

guess Rn jaded now, because now I my, Well, I‘ve been t+re bcfore’-but that first one 

was really a nilestont for me.” 

Frustmfioas of the. job. “People who work at tbc Whiti House work exlremely hard, 

and extremely long hours, including the weekends. . . . It’s very strca&l. Members of 

Congress and Senators can be very d~d~n~, and rightfblly so. And when they want 

something they 

think WC had ctlou~ stair l So we were 

f 

orking all day tong, phones are ~~~~~y 
ringing, and everybody wants cvcrything yedcrday. But . _ _ out of that I’ve ti a 

very good crisis manager.” 

On the White lihust and Congress. “Of course the two branches are independent, but 

them arc a lot of inlerco~tions going on. Most Of the M, wpccklly in legislative 

@&in, have worked on the Hill. And a Jot of other of%es in the White House are s&&d 

by pcoplc who have ptior eqericncc working v&h Congress. So there is a lot of 

consultation, there are a lot of meotirtgs with men&x-s of Congress , . . there’s a lot of 

b~~d-~~~e~ work going on with White House staff and Hill stafl? 

Career goats. “It seems like e~uykxtdy in my of&e [was] planing on going to law 

rrchool. And I kept sayi- ‘No, &n not going to law schooI-DC. has thousands of 

lawyers, we don9 need another lawyer.‘. . . But)l,have decided to purmm that, and 

hop&My stay in the public sector once 1 ftnish.’ 

Advice to rtudcnta. ‘Students who want to get into politics [don’t] n- have to 

major in political ecienco, or history, or economics. I think anythiry lhal you major irt will 

be us&l to you in the future. But ILe found that a strong, broad 11kal arts ba+ound 

is extremely helpful. Taking a lot of English courses . . . is very hdpfil . . . you’ve got te 

be able to articulate well [both in writing] and orally. I think students should read a lot , , 

. outside of the things that youte got to read for your cksscs.” 
- .~- 

10/18/95 11:59 

On the White blouse internship pmgrm. “Students should d&nitcly apply to the 

Whit@ Houst intwnship program. It’s 8 greai program. They have interns who are 

curmnily in school, students who have just graduated f&m college, and also a lot of 

students who are in law school. , . . WhiW House interns . . . arc very appreciated in our 

offices-4 know we couldn’t fimction without their help.” 

P.05 
1657 

RECORD TYPE: PRESIDENTIAL (ALL-IN-1 MAIL) 

CREATOR:Patsy L. Thomasson ( w 1 

CREATION DATE/TIME: 9-APR-1996 12:05:07.75 

SUBJECT:RE: Monica Lewinsky and Jocelyn Jolley 

TO:Jodie R. Torkelson (II)_) 

READ: 9-APR-1996 12:07:23.69 

CC:Bob J. Nash (M)’ 

READ: 9-APR-1996 20:35:25.98 

TEXT: 

Bob and I have been working with Tim on placing these two people. 

We are working closely with DOD to make this happen for Monica. We have 

not finalized the deal but are working toward that end. 

Monica is coming in to see me today pursuant to Tim's request of me. 

Our direction is to make sure she has a job in an Agency. We are working toward 

that end. 

patsy 

wo6-Dc-oooo1347 
1658 
1659 

_ 

it 

7 

8 

9 

0 

1 

. 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

1 

,2 

3 

J 

Thursday, July 24.1997 

U’ashngum. DC. 

Tk &position in tk above matlo‘ was kid in Room 2203. 

Rayburn House Office Building. c amxncmg at 10.10 am. 

I 

2 

I 

. 

J 

6 

7 

8 

? 

0 

I 

2 

I 

4 

5 

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E 

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1 

2 

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I 

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8 

9 

IO 

Ii 

1,’ 

I3 

IO 

IS 

16 

Ii 

I8 

I9 

10 

:I 

?2 

?3 

11 

15 

Page 3 

Ms. Comstock. Good morning. Mr. Jordan. On behalf of 

rbcmczlbusofrbcGJmmWrw Govpnmnt f&f- and 

~a~@r I apprcsiatc and hnk you for appcanng hcrt 

*aday lhr procadrng is hewn as a &posrhon Tk m 

transcnbmg lhrs pmccd IS a House rcpa~ and notary 

pubbc I ~111 now qrrst that Ibc xpcn-u place you undo 

;aLh 

~EP.EL-?o-. 

\EtL~ON JORDAV. 

a vnmcss. was calkd for -brm by counsel and aha 

samngtenfimdulyswm.wasaunrrrdandrcrnfmiu 

follows. 

Congzuswaman hhkmey u al.90 prcsuit rtus manmg 

Nrboughrbrsproc&inga~kidIoascxmhat 

vlf~mal armosph kccaLLEc yw have ten placad IJIY& arh 

your rcsumony tn~ taiay kis Ibc sanx force and cffozt as II 

1 

I 

I 

1 

I 

2 

2 

2 

2 

2 

2 

Page 4 

1 you u’p-t tcsufylng bcforc tkc comnurta or m a courtrooxz 

2 If I ask you about ccnvcnations you have bad III rbc past acd 

3 you ut unabk to rozall tk exact words used III tk 

4 coowrsanon. you may SUIC th you arc unabk IO recall 

5 &se aact words and tkn you may g~c LRC tix gxr or 

6 substance of any conversation to dx best of your 

7 nxolkcnon If you recall only part of a con\asauon of 

8 only pan of an C\QIL plcasc give mc your best ruollaxloc 

9 of W even& or panr. of con\maGons that you do mali 

10 IJ 1 ask you WI&U you hax any mformason upon a 

I1 parocular subJa& and you hax or-crkard 0th persons 

12 coovmtng with mcb otk7 ~@~ng it or san cornzspontice 

I3 oraord5lYga&DgI~pkasctcumcthatyoudohavcsuct 

I4 &xmauon. sod indicate tk sour= wktkr a convusanLy_ 

IS a daxnmu~ a otktfwsc hem which you haw dm\A 

I6 such knowlulgc. 

W I* Bd~we~Ibtqucstioarog.Iwould~togvc),_;1 

I8 saxx hackground about Ibc uwatigation and your appcax..;e 

‘9 krc Purxuantto~tsautbcmtyunundaHouvru)cs IOmd 1: 

LO of Ibc House of Rcprrxnrat~cs. Ihc commina IS enga@ z a 

!I ~WW of possibk pohcal Fund-raising improprieua and 

!2 pslbk ~XMKMIS of lam and &ted manus under the 

!3 sukanm~na’s ~unsdxtioo. Paga 2 through 4 of House 

!a Rcpcrr 105-139 summaJ-& rbc ~~vcst~gatioo as of June 19~ 

!5 1997. md cnccxnparvs any new mates which arise dinr-_y or 

_A_ 

1 
1660 

Cmdcnsclt - 

Page 5 Page t 

1 mdirutly in ttr c0urx of rbc UrvcStlgaoOn. I caqhcd tku qucsmmng. a 11c)*’ round C: qucsuomrg o-~y 

2 Also Pages 4 m 1 I of rbt tepcn aplain tk 2 @D hbar Of CiXlmS U’b Nlsh ‘r ajir qumlloflc UI~ bc 

3 background of tk m\xAgati~n. All qWu0ns KM& 3 affd an unm&au opportunity Io ask L’N qucsllons aI 

4 nlber &dy or xdifutly. 10 lbox issucs or qwstlons 4 any Lze *-!nl Llry aK pmcJl1. H-kn * M I-JnhJi 

5 wt.&b have * IaJcbCy 10 au&c Lbz tistnct of my petinall 5 ccFirEc counsel will lbcn resume qucsucnmg. 

6 fact more or kss probabk than it would k witbwt ths 6 Pursuant U tlx comminu ruks. you ax alloucd to ba\c 

7 cvickncc aK propa 7 an ataorrry prncn~ lo advise you of your r&s An 

8 I would like t0 SUIC for the ruxrd also w bavc another 8 ob,utzm n~scd during Ihc course of tk c+ositron shall be 

9 Majority staff muntu p-k Mr. cbarks Liti is in th 9 sured for rbc record. Lf the w’~tncss IS JnsL-xrcd not w 

0 room. 10 BnsulcI a Cp!SdoO or OLhcrwisc rcfusn to aizuu a qucsuon. 

I h&. Malo~. May I ask a question? Is tkrc Minority 11 h$tiiry md tinoI%y COUnSd Vnll COnfa m dCU3UJJJYC UkIh 

2 staff bpr from rbc Democratic staff? 12 tk obptioa is propu If MaJority and hGntity counsels 

3 Mr. Balkn. Ya Ken Balkn. I am tk dalgnatcd 13 agxx Rabat aquestion is propa. tbz witness u1l.l be asked to 

4 Minority counsel for &is and Manbm J-b and hf.&d 14 apsucz ti question. If an objection is nor uxbdraun. tbc 

5 Rapbacl. 1s Chad cu manba designated by the Chamnan may Wick 

6 Mrs. MaIoncy TlUn.k you. 16 w&&u tbc obpuon is proper. 

7 Ms. Gmstcck. Tk c0mm.incc has bum &ranted spaifg 17 This ckp0sition is considaxd as taken ID cxautivc 

8 auhrization lo conduct this dcpositibo pUnUant to HOW 18 asti of tbc commiM which means it may not be ma& 

9 blution 2 167, w%ich passed tk full House on June 20. 19 public witbwt tbc C0nscnt Of the COinmIncC pursuant to clause 

0 1997, committa ruk 20. of which you rsdvcd a copy. 20 2&x7) of House ruk xx. 

1 outliner ur ground ntks for tk depositAm. 21 Q’e~askingy0utoabidcbytbcruksoftlxHowand 

2 Majority and h’tity ccxnminet counsels will ask you 22 ad discuss th: deposition with anyone otbz than your 

3 qwstions rcgardir~g tk subprt ~zand OF tbc i~tv~St@~. 23 aruancy and tk issue5 and qucsuons raised during tlxr 

4 Minority counsel aill ask questions aha Majority counsd has 24 Pr==l%. 

S coalpk& questJoCu.ng Afw rk Kinairy COJuJsel has 25 Fmally. IU) later than S days aficr your estimony is 

l ** Notes l ** 

Page 7 Page 8 

1 ~scribd and yrx: have hap notif& that your nanscnpl I M and I will vt 11 for fhz record or qhsc it or 

2 is avallabk. you may subnut suggCStcd changes to rbc 2 caplam any marwr that you don’t undcrstarxl. Is thahal 

3 Chauman. As UC dmussed pnOr lo dx procadmg. Ihal 3 CbI’ 

4 S days can be waled by cooxnt of rbc MinmVy d tune 4 Tk W~mcsr. Yes. ma’am. 

S consDams nazcss~uP S !& Gmstock. Tbz rcpo~ wll bc takmg down 

6 Tb: transcnp~ u;ll lx availabk for your mew a( &c 6 c\a)&mg you say and will make a wn~ ruord of tk 

7 C~na office Qr ottu ~t5canbcoxack GnnnWie 7 mlrnn You must give verbal. audibk answus bccaux tbt 

8 staff can make any -phical and tabmcal cW 8 v cannot record what a nod of the bd or otixr gunvc 

9 requcsrcd by you Substarmvc cbanga. Ud.lfKNIOflS. 9 czans Do you understand? 

0 clnficauons. 0r -dmans lo tk dcposlWa WanScript 10 Tk W~tncss (Xonvcrbal rcsponrc.) 

1 subaunaj by yw m\Lst he acccimpama! by a km rcqucsung III .Hs Cornstock. If YOU CM’I hear M. pkasc say so and I 

2 tbcchaagcsmda~temcntofyourrasoar forcachproporcd ‘12 u~~lt.bcqucsDonorbawtkxpo~lradtk 

3 chngc. A kiw vong any subspraavc chnga. 13 quaoo0. If y0u Qn’t know tk ansm 10 a qusuon. please 

4 cncdf~anoas, clanfiuwrCr. 0 uncadmenumutkt~by I4 tell us So. We M not askmg you for pure spoxlatroo or 

5 yw. ‘IS pnsmg. Do you understand that? 

6 Any subrtanbvc chanm. nxxlificatnms, clanfJCawnr. 16 Tbc WJtlXSS YCS. 

7 aama&nwWkmch&drsan8ppcndutotk 17 Mr Corn-stock. Pbsc wait until 1 fmisb cacb q~uon 

8 mscnpr c&tmaj up00 your signrns of rhc transcnpl 18 . t&m answuq and I will wait until you fuysb your answu 

9 M.r ComstDck Doy0uuIxkrsLandcWythmgWhaWgolx ,I9 bcfsrc 1 ask tk W(I qucsuon. Do you undcntand tit tis 

!O ova so far’ ’ 20 ti kip rbc m make a clear ruord bzausc lx cannot 

!l * %-JU-JCSS YCS. UU’M :21 

I 

take down what W’rc both saying at rh: sanx u&? 

!2 MS Camsuxk. DO pu barn soy quesnoos abou anyxlung’ !22 Ttx Wimcss 1 uxicrsmd. 

!3 Tbc WIaJCsS I bavc w qucsti0ns. 23 .Ms. Ccrmstcxir. Your testimony is tcmg ti unda oath 

!4 Ms.Gnnsmck. Iwpaodtogo~~fcugruundniks 24 talayasifm:~macoun. Doyouundcrstandtbatifyou 

!S as we sM If you don’t undaxtand a qmtmm. pkav say 2s answc~ a q!xstioo. it will be assumed that you undartaDd I& 

**a Notes l ** 

PageS-Page8 
1661 

_ I 

Page 9 

I question and tk answu WIS in& to k ~~ponsrvc to that 1 

2 qucsuan? 2 

3 Tk WltnesS. 1 undasund. 3 

4 Ms. Cornstock. AX YOU k volu~l~lly today or as a 4 

5 mult of a subpuma? 5 

6 Ttx Witness. Sub-. 6 

7 Ms. Cornstock. We did not &IX a subpana. It was a 

1 

8 hzrcquest. 8 

9 Mr. Hundky. A knu of rcqucst, which I acceplcd 9 

0 Tk Witness. By reason of ktt~ m-t. 10 

I Mr. Hundky. In a saxse. 11 

2 Ms. Cornslock. Do you have any questions about Ibc 12 

3 &position befox we begin? 13 

4 Tk Witnas. I have no qucrti0nS. 14 

5 Ma. Cornstock. Mrs. Maloney, do you have any questions at 15 

6 thistinx? 16 

7 Mrs. Maloney. No. I do sot 17 

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; And could you pled give your background from 

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Page 10 

colkgc fcnmrd for rhc record 

A I firusbod colkge aI &Pauu Lhvusary in 

Grancastk. Indiana. in 195’. zanx to Howard Law Schccl rn 

Scptcmba ‘57 I graduati m 1960 I went to .4kanta lo 

practice law with Donald L HoUowcU. I did that for a 

, 

yar. Ilhenbecamcttxf&dduatoroftbcCh8ia f 

brancha of tk SAACP. I ti that 2 )w. I hen became tbc 3 

assistant Lo tlx exautlve duu!or for ti Soulhan bona1 j 

Gm~c11. Two years later. 1 bad th lob. and hJob of 

assistant director of the Votu Educauon Pro&t. And Id13 

that untd 1965 when I baan-r anomcy consultant to the 

Office of Econouuc Opporrumry. I sqd in k povaty ’ 

program long enough to do somethmg about my povary and left : 

9 months later and retumed to t& Soutlxrn Rq@onal Council 

wkm from 1965 until 1970. I was tlx dirutor of tbc Voter 

i 

: 

Education ProJect of Lhs Southn Regional Council. Maxh of 

197 I, I assumed t& position of aacutivc dirutor of tk j 

United Negro Co@ Fund. which I did until 1971. wbeo I 

baame president of tk Nauonal Urban Lcaguc. j 

I was president of tk National Urban League from -- for 

10 ycan. ending hcanba 31n 1981. And January 1st 1982. 

I txcame a pann~r in Akin. Gtunp. Spauss. Hauer & Rid. which 1 

is what I do now. I 

Q And do you save on any M? 

A Yes, I do. 

___cPage 11 

1 Q Could you provide for tk ruczd w&t hnls you 

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sub-c on 

A You want nonprofit (I for-profit? Wbat do you 

want? 

Q Both. Do the nonprofit fuxt. 

A I am a trusti of Howard Utivus~~. I am a truslcr: 

of Ibt Joint Cmtp for Polidcal and Ecooomic Stubcs I am 

atrustaoftbcFordFoun&tion. IamatrustnofrbcL& 

Foundauon. And I am a dircctcr of tk NMO ugal Dcfenre 

and Education Fund. 

My corporate aff%atioos ax ArxpKan Exprar. Burkerr 

TrustGunpany,DowJoneaCanpany.SinLuCorp. 

R~bn.Inc.JC.Penney,UniooGrbi&udXcrox Andlam 

aruaGdrrrxtoroftIrCXIawryGoIfCanpMy Iamontk 

Inmatmnal Advisory Commira: of hxnkz-&nz Cu-pcntxoo 

I am a mu&u of tbc Intu~Doaal AdvlMsy Gxnm~rna fa 

Bamek.GoldCorporatmn:itisaCanachncarparMo And 

IamauBmbaoftkIntuIlatKuulIAchayGalmlracof 

FuJkwolfalscm 

Mr Hundky WccaaspelItboseforyouktcrrf~tIr 

all n&t. 

TkW~tncss Ithinktbatisit. 

BYSUCXHSTCXX 

Q when did you first med Raidcnt Choo? 

A 1973. 

r Page121 

1 Q And w-bcn did you Fast become involved in tk ‘92 

2 campae. d you bd? 

1 

3 A Iwas- m habe b&n frxmds for a very long time. I 

4 so I was involved from tk beginrung I do not know bow to 

5 ckfine ‘the beginning.” It may have ban in 1973. 

6 Q And did you assist uxb tk ‘92 campaign in tk 

7 fund-raising? 

8 A In tbz ‘92 campale I don’t think I did much 

9 fund-ralsmg 

0 Q Did you sa-ve in any capacrty. volunr~er or 

I -1s~ ~7th tk ‘92 cv? 

2 A No. no, I was just sort of a random informal advisor 

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during tk ‘92 campaign. 

Q DidyouhaveanyA But I bad spaifr roks in tk ‘92 campaign. One 

spozifx rok was Rabat Iu;ls a rmnba of a 3-pason commina 

u) ad~lsc rbc Prcsrdcnt on tk s&&a of its Vice 

Pruidax. Govcmor Kunin from Maine or Vcrmonr and forms 

Secruary of Stare Warxn Chnstopkr. and I fomvd that 

cnmminac. 

Q Did you also scnr 00 tk aans~tion? 

A I was cbauman of rhc 1992 Pruidcntial Pansiuon. 

Q And did Mr. Chnswpber sux wxb you in thaw 

capcity ah as cahauman? 

A Yes. that’s right.. 

Page 9 - Page 12 
1662 

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Page 13 Page 14 

1 Q And what UTE your duties in that position? 1 Hubkll. no 

2 A My duties were to -- I was based in Wastungwn. 2 Q Do you know wk was involved in Ihat’ 

3 Mr. Christopher was based in Little Rock. and WC bacally 3 A I do no1 

4 coordinated the transition: the appointment of pwplc, the 1 4 Q CouldyoultU~wkIhcoltnpeopkwacwkuvt 

5 selection of people. t.k discussion of people. We did 5 molvcd in rhc vcRmg process dunng the ~ransrwn? 

6 t&vision interviews. radio intrrvicws. We mana& tk 6 A lcanno~ - rbar SaS Somebody in cbargc of 

7 msition process WC dealt with transition mcmbe~~ in the 7 vcning 1 cannor IcU you wbo was in charge of sting .tid 

8 Bush adrmnistration. It was a -- it was a gnat Job and fun 8 &UT uvc Icdms. ti uuc Irams to M vancus cablncr 

9 todo. 9 persons. teams 10 XI otba pasons Tk vmjng of W&b 

0 Q Who asked you to do that job? 10 Hubkll. I have no idea of wkn 1ha1 took place We fus1 bad 

1 A The Frcsi&nt, then tk Prcsidmtilat. I1 10 gc~ an A- -1. and 1ba1 look some trm. !jo wk, 

2 Q Andwhendidkaskyoutodothat? 12 actually panicipated in the vating of individuals. 1 have 

3 A The week -- 3 days after the &Ctim, 1 guess. 4 13 absoluccly no idea. 

4 days after the election. It was on Tuesday; I was askai on 14 Q Now. you said that you did lrvicw sonx backgrounds 

5 sahmiay. IS of SOM individuals? 

6 Q He personally called you and askai you to suvc in 16 A Some backgmunds of individuals, mostly cabind 

7 that capacity? 17 oflicas. 

8 A I think that’s right. 18 Q Wa-c you involved in the vating of Ron Brown? 

9 Q Were you involved in vetting hackgrounds of 19 A Yes. lwrs. 

!O incjivi&a.ls who would be in the cabinet? 20 Q DoyouknowifMr.Kantorwasinvolndintk 

!l A Idon’tdothcactualvctting. IrcadthcVctti.ng 21 vetting process during tbc Iransition. Mickey l&tor was a 

!Z nzport!S. 22 part of ok Iransidon w; whaba k actually read v&ng 

!3 Q Were you involved at all in the vetting of Wcbsta 23 rcpor~S? 

!4 Hubbell’s background? 24 A I do no1 have the answer to ~bat. 

!S A I was not involved in the vetting of Webster 2s Q Do you know a Grald S&n? 

**t Notes *** 

Page 15 Page 16 

I A 11hinkJu~YStern. 1 PrCdcnI. IIalkIobimwknkwantsu,talkrame. 

2 Q Was MI SW involved in th: nning pracss’ 2 Q Do works go by wkn you don’t talk? 

3 A Mr. Stan. a fosmcr counsel of a company III 3 ASomaims 

4 Cal&x-ma_ was for a hnr fully runnmg tbc Lmk Rak pan 4 Q Ormoo~hs? 

5 of Ibc mans&n Tbar um ptk TV tk formal uwohmI 5 A Not moo&s, but wuks, ya. 

6 of Cbristopbcr and myself. and k was a sufl m In tk 6 Q Dunng ok transition time. wue you involved in 

7 ttansition. 7 bscussing a b of the cabim ma&us with tk Rrsidmr 

8 Q Do You know if k was invohd a1 JU m em-q for 8 pusanally? 

9 tbc Jusucc Dcparmxmt? 9 A Ya.Iwas. 

,O A ldoooIk.now. 10 Q war you invohcd II all with discusslq h Justlcc 

1 Q YOUkvCbZlWtedJSoIICOfrhc&Sdent’Sty I1 Dcparfmcnl appointas with tk Rsident? 

#2 “kitchen cabina” rypc advirors. Could you dacnbc wkr tk 12 A 1 was invohcd in discussing primarily the Actrnny 

.3 MIlnrofyouradviaMdrclaIicxlsbpkwiIllIkhsdenI 13 -1. 

14 iIlBepcrallamr’ 

I 

14 Q Did you haye any rok in discussing Mr Hubkll’s 

I5 A Wcll.CX~fj’OUkDOW,tbchCSidartJSkCdJ 15 pos~oon a1 tk JusIxc fkparrment? 

16 qrrJtlo0. you give bun an JLWU. I don’1 know bow to aptam !le, A I do not racollat any spdic discussloo with tk 

17 II kynad rM. My trla~ionslup is such t&at numtu (XI 17 fksxknt about tbc appctinrment of Webb Hubkil as Associate 

I8 ut’fc fneadr. ad Jt such &IX Ikl thcrr WIS J UXmihJtu!~~ 18. Anonryw. 

19 abour J pamcuhr mrtm. k says. wba1 do you Ibmk of I&. 19 Q b’hea did you fprt mar Mr. Hubbell? 

10 IwouidsaywbrdoIthnkofthaLpaxd. 020 A IfirsIma~.HubkllmLInlcRockinIhc 

II Q Howofrmdoyoutalktitbth:PrcrtiI. 21 IransiooO offI during J mating. He appeared and sum&od~ 

12 BcoQallY’ 22 said this is Webb Hubbell. I said I’m Vcraoo Jordan. and WC 

13 A l-kr’skrdtodearmrr Hcksavuybgpb. 23 wept oo JbOUI otx bustis. 

L4 andIbavcamybigjob. Hc~ravcls,lpavci icannot- 24 Q DidtherrearvaCmcwbeoyouuDdcrsIoodtbat 

l5 Iunnottllyouwi~rayspccif~itybowofrnItptku,rhc 25 Mr. Hubbell w-as going ho k coming to Wasbingxoo to work LO 

l ** Notes l ** 

Page 13 -Page 16 
1663 

Page 17 

soax capacity m tbc rdministhon? 

A That was prct!y clear early on. EspacuUy aha su 

got an Ancrncy Gnhal. 

Q Nbal *as your undcfstanding of tk trlationship 

bcnvoco tk Rcsidcnt and Webs= Hubkil? 

A Tky both grew up in Arkan~. He practiced hw at 

ti Rose Law Firm wkn tk f’rcsicknt was GOVUIKX. tit’s all 

I &KS about tbnr relationship. 

Q Was it your understanding tky wuc very close 

fricrlds’ 

A b(y apaicncc is that evaybody in Arkansas was 

close frr&s. so I don’t bavc any unique appfulatioa of 

tkir friendship. 

Q During tk transition. was pan of your role to work 

with diffamt wps to ga a divoxity of appointments in 

t& m administhon? 

A I don’t know what LOU tncan by that. 

Q To work witb lots of diffarnt intarst groups and 

~SlOCcullthroughA I had the gad job of chairman of tk transition, 

which uzant I taIkaI witb Republicans. I talkal with Danarau 

I tarred uitb Hispanics, I taDred with white pcopk. I talkad 

witi~ An-&cans about this proms. So I talkad to evaybody. 

Q Ia rbc course of tk transition. did you mat with 

Asian-Pacific Amaican kadcn? 

Page 19 

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A I w wvb euybody th had busrncss kfort M as 

cbavrmn of tk ua~~uon I nm mtb lndmns 1’13 sure I 

ma uxb Asun-Amcncans If you trod to pm ax clown. drd I. 

in facL mal ultb a specific group of Asian-mans -- I 

mu wxb gap. 1 mcc W&I ksblans. I met wvh euyixxly. 

That uas my pb. 

Q Da you know who Maria Haley is? 

A Doesn’t nng a bd. 

Q Or Melinda Ya? 

A Dusn’t rq a kll. 

Q h-is Matsut? 

A 1 knou Doris Matsui. Sk is manned U, Gmg~~smao 

Mat.% 

Q Jan Pacy? 

A I know Jan Pacy. 

Ms. Cornstock. I’m &owing tk witness EOPUKKM through 

87. wbicb is a document rcceivcd I klkvc from tk white 

House. This is a January 8,1993. lata to Mrs. Mat.& al 

tk transition board for ClintonGorc transition, and it 

discusses a list of pmpk wbo met with Mr. Jordan on bcbalf 

of tk Asian-Pacific fhcrican community. 

Mr. Hundky. Okay. 

BY Ms. c0!tlsTocK; 

Q Do you have any -1 rsollatiqn of this mating 

of1 

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Q Wbat was tk process to get resumes and information 

into you in tk stkction process? 

A Rcsumj urnt to personnel. And the uvc tons and 

tons and toas of resumes. and tlrx was a process. the was 

some 40 pcopk sorncwkrc wbb rcspondcd to tkx rcsunxs. My 

Job was not to cngaF in detail. and so 1 didn?. And our 

p~nary concan was tk cabinet. Tbosc were tk fint 

appommts. and that’s what w5 wuc dealing with. 

Q Iw;illtcdtogothroughaaumkrofpcopkwbowcrc 

at tk %IUIC House and ask you if you know tkm M not or bad 

a rciauoarh~p with tkzn. Do you know Mack McLarty? 

A IdoknowMackMcLarty. 

Q HowkmgbavtyouknormMr.Mchty? 

A ImuMr.McLPrtydurirqthcampai8nduriqtk 

tinrtbatwrbqantalkingabouttk~sition. Sokwason 

tk cnginal nansitioo couuha. And so I must have met 

Mack Mchty somdmr prior to tlx convcotion. 

Q Nh k was wurkiq in tk uansitiobn cam&a. was 

k UI tk Liuk Rock office 01 D.C.? 

A He was m Littk Rock. )cs. 

Q Do you know Bruce Lindsey? 

A I do know Bruce Lindsey. 

Q How loq have you known_ Mr. Lindsey? 

A ILvcknownMr.Jhdseyavayloqtiux WutI 

maMr.LinAKVI~t~yOy.butIbavclust~o~him 

;g l ** 

Page17-Page2( 
1664 

Gmdcmclt’” 

Page 21 

j ms like formu. 

? Q You knew bun kfore 1992? 

1 A Yes. 

I Q Back to tk ‘SOS? 

5 A Yeahlhwhokuas Iamarr=nbuoftk 

5 Arkansas bar, and I have brm going in and out of Arkansas for 

7 a vq long umc. Bit x did not baomz really friends until 

9 tk ‘92 campaign 

3 Q Andforwbarpurposcsurrcyoualrvrmbaoftk 

3 Arkansas bar? 

1 A Fortksanxptqoscyouarcamanberofyo~bar. 

2 Q Do you pracuce fqularly in Ahansas? 

3 

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7 pluakd Inc. 

8 Q Do you know Errkinc Bowks? 

9 A I do know Erskinc Bowler. 

0 Q How long ban you known Mr. Bowks? 

1 A I have knoun Erskine Bowlcs since k came to 

2 Washington to run tk Small Business Mminismtion. 

3 Q Do you lmow Marsba Scott? 

4 A I do know Yarsba Six%!. 

5 Q How long have you kpomr Marsha Scott? 

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A somtlmc dunng tk campatgr. 

Q Know Mark Mddhon? 

A IQ. 

Page 2: i 

Q How long be you known Mr. hddkton? 

A Iaxthiin m during tk admhstratlon wkn k 

came to work for Mack M&arty 

Q And have )uu kept In touch with Mr. Middkton since 

k kfi tk admmlspauon in February of ‘951 

A I baw sari bun on cxcasions since k kti tk 

adminisfhon. 

Q And on wht acaslons would those k? 

A I have socn hm at functions. I have sari turn on 

tk strut. I havt scpl him In restaurants and I think k has 

come to my offue a coupk of times. 

Q And for what purposes would k have COM to your 

off=? 

A To say kllo. He has come to my office to inuoducc 

me to pmpk I think on one or two occasions. 

Q Okay. Could you dcscrik what those occasions 

wQt7 

A I cannot. Hc has h to sa me. Once aboutwhat 

daa k do with his lift as so many young pcopk do 

post-administzatioa. And I gave him some advice and counsel 

about that. And k has. 1 think, on one occasion brought a 

Mr. Ecnny Nu to m me. What tk conversation was abouf I 

don’t know 

Page 23 

He came in. WC said klk. I think it was l&y 

Huwhocamcmsamconcxracas~. Tbprwasan 

introducuon. ut said kilo. bow are ym and k M 

Q Do you know wbo Benny Hu IS? 

A 1 don’t have tbc shgbtcst idea u-b0 &noy Hu IS 

Q Do you knin~w why k was bavmg Bamy Hu oxzt ultb 

you? 

A I do not 

Q You hax no idea wbot k canx fran’ 

A Ithnkktifromfalwur. AndksardIamgomg 

tobnngMr HubytosayklIo.andkbrou@thir Hubyancl 

said kilo, bow TV you? Nia to bavl: you h Goal-bs 

Q So it was ~usr a mea-and- ~saxt” 

A Mazt-and- 1 &a blofthat. 

Q Do you hate any busms thaw you ha= done wlrb 

Mr MIddleloo’ 

A No. 

Q Has% M&lk%tmcwtaIkaitoywabouranykmd 

of )omt v~lm cx domg any bustis tq@xr’ 

A No. M 

Q Wercyouaw~gcaxaUyofwbatlh -was 

domgahPkkf?tkadminrmatiao? 

A Notentucly IknowofarcLoauhrptbatkbad 

withBtickGokiw~Istimtkln~aoaalAhsq 

Chtruruttce. He uarkcd far Banick ciold and bd )(IIILC coasultmg 

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forBa%kGoldforatim. Iamawarcoft.batbacausc1a& 

on tbdr Intemauonal Advisory Comminet. Tk cxtcnt and 

Page 24 

nature of his busmess I am not familiar with 

Q Do you know Harold Ickca? 

A Yes. 

Q And how lorq have you known Mr. lcka? 

A Forcvcr, sort of. He’s lxzn a laxqv and a Danocrat 

foralongtiux. IhavcbSnalawycrandahocntfora 

lotlgtiar. wctmdto~owoncanorba. 

Q Mr. I&es pinad tk admioatration in January of 

1994. Wcrcyouawaxeofhsbcingmchaqofwlxatwas 

ally called “damage control opaations”? 

A Iamnotawucofhiskinginchargcofdamagc 

control. I am au- that k workaei for Warren Cbristopkr 

during tk transition. Hc was vay klpful duhng tk 

mnsltwn. ILhd a \q good Job dunog tbc transition. And 

subsequently alia E(IM pcnod of tirx canr into tk 

admimstntion. 

Q Durmgtktransitzn.didthccolrratimcwkn 

you baaax aware that Mr. IcLcs would not k Jomrng tk 

adminisuation as had mayk prCv1ously ti plan&? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know what tbc cucumstant~~ of it was? 

A Therr~somcpcndingitsrr~~Ymkthathadto 

kraahzdhavineu,doMthhisrcprrscnta~ofab~ 

s l ** 

Page21 -Page24 
1665 

union. tk &ails of which 1 don’t ~IIOW much about. I am 

aware &at that was an issut. and wkn that USII: was rschut 

TV came to work in tk Uhr~ HOUC. 

Q Did you ever discuss that manu with ‘Jx Residmt? 

A I don’t think I discussed tbat partkukr ma= 

wrlthtbcPrcsidcnt. IdidhowthxwasaprobLmasto 

whcrba or not Harold Ickcs would COM into rhc administnbon 

January 20th 1993. He didn’t. He subscquntly cant a v 

lara. 

Q But did you n’a discuss with tk hcsidmt wbaba 

or not II would be advisabk to have Harold Ickcs Join tk 

adminisuation in 1993? 

A I do not recall a spafic convasation with tk 

Prcsi&nt about Harold Ickcs and at what point k would conx 

into tk administration. 

Q Do you have any genaal rocolbctioo? 

A I do not have any ~1 tuolkction of that 

coovcnation. 

Q What was your undustanding of Mr. I&S’ rok wh 

k did join tk administtation in Jananusry of 1994? 

A He came in as deputy chief of staff, I believe. 

Q Wax you aware of his involv~mnt in handling 

Wbitewatu matters or 0th - 

A Iknewthatkwasdcputychicfofsuff. Phcd. 

Q Did you cvu have occasion to talk with Mr. Ickrs 

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whama 1 calkd him abouf lhat is what m I&al abar: 

%%at tky wux specifically. I cannot rll you that. 

Q In January of 1994. spaial CCUMI. Mr I%~G was 

appomlrd to mvutigatc tk Whitcwr~ maM N Ya, CCV 

have any hrcussions with tbc Rsdent about tk rppo~amt 

of hlr F,skc’ 

.4 I 6d not. 

Mr BaIh IamgoingtoobJatagam Ifultosa 

what tkse qucsuons about WhtPuaa babr Lo do wnb tk 

scope of thzr m\augauon If counsel can apkln to fre bow 

tky IrlaIc maytx I can wltblmw tk obJaooa I &xl’1 90 

otkzintkr&olutxxaan@ingthtbubaabcf~~s 

ColpLzulpc 

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hir. Hundky. WC would like to get 19 tk~ 

Ms. Comsuxk. - your knowkdgc of tk cva~tr kadtng up 

10 Mr. HubbclI’s Mgnation is wbmt 1 am talhng about l=c. 

which is in January of ‘94 thuugb h4ay ‘94. The \KT~ 

martus thaw wit - March ‘94 when Mr. Hubbell raigncd. 

T&se arc vay prominent manus in tk DCUX I would like -- 

Mr Ballen. That is your s~~tcmat. they T prominent 

matters In tk news. Wbydon’t you ask tk almess his 

knowkdgc? 

MS Gmsmck. Mr Bakn.youa~nocrbc~u~~s’ 

anomcy 

Mr. Hundky. Go airad. but pkxs~ I w YC are not 

gomg to was= - spcod a lot of tinx on Whruatcr bazausc 

thatrrnotwhymaxhPr.ismyun&zstahng. Butmdo 

waottoccupa71t. Wedowanttoanslvcr. Sogoahdfora 

whik 

Mr BaIh ButIcanobFt AndJyarvll~t~t~ 

bnngntotkCbaumaaandbcf~tkfuIl cannute fa 

ccmsxhatla. w car. 

Mr Hundky Luoraskyou.bowfu=ycu~u,go 

wlrb this’ We are bat to UISWSI yarr q\rrooas. )uu 

understand that. But I man - 

Mr Cumstock. Obnoruly. UC arc lnr bscussmg 

Mr Hubbell and Mr. HubW’s marpn and so wz arc M 

tO--yOlMkLlOWkdgcMs. Coatstock. Thank you. 

8Y MS. alMSTax 

Q [)ld you discuss with anyone tk appmntmmt of a 

spccral counsel in January? 

A I did not paraC~pate in any discussions of 

Mr Fiske 

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2 

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l ** Nous *** 

Q Thankyou. DidtJnecorxatimca~youbad 

bKussions mtb anybody at th U%il~ Houcr about Websta 

HubW’s legal problems? 

A No. 

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Page 26 

rbollt any -- 

A Manytxncs 

Q I’m sorry; did you have occasion to la> ~7th hun 

about any matxrs rclati to Wlulc\s.aer of cCxz kgal 

ptobkms? 

M.r BaIkn. I am going to obJat. If cMLEyl can 

aphn what Mr. Jordan’s convusauons on U?umatcr have to 

do ~101 tk scope of rols invatigatlon. if an? - 

MS timstock. 1 am asking tk mtncss d k has any 

knoukdgc of what MI I&es’ rok was in de+ with 

nxponsc - 

Tbc Witness. My howkdge of Mr. 1ck.m rok was that k 

was deputy chief of staff and that’s what k uai and that’s 

what k did period. 

BY MS. coMsfcxx 

Q Did you have any regular conrCMtxxx with 

Mr. I&es? 

A ItaIkaltoHamldfromtimctotimc)a.Idid. 

Q And do you ruaIl M what maw you 

discussal with Mr. lcka? 

A Whac~atkisnrwasofthcday. haremany. 

many things about which you can talk to tk &xtty chief of 

staff. Wbat tlxxc issues wcx: at any givaI tmr I cannot 

tcllyoubaausc1donotknowandIdonot remmba. But 

whateva was on his mind or wbattxz k caIkd me about or 

Page 25 - Page 28 

Page 28 

Q Wbmdid~fiistbcarthatMr.HubkUbsdany 
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kgal probkms? 

Page 29 

A whenkcanrtosatxxtotcllmctbatkwasthar k had so= probkms. k was kaving rbc Justice 

Departnxnt. and k nuxkd SOM klp. 

Q Andwbcodidkcometosayou? 

A somaime in tk spring of 1994. I cannot tell p 

tk SpeClfK date. WC had hnch. He told me k had a 

problem. And I told hm I would like to be klphd to bun. 

He was my friend. 

Mr. Hundky. A diary amy. which you have. sbom March 

tk 13th. ‘94. We ha\r it. It’s in tk back. I’ll SLOW 

YW. 

Ms. Cornstack. It is March 12th. 1994. 

Mr. Hundky. 12th acw mc. Manh 12th. 

BY MS. CfMSTCXL 

Q This is tk wims’ documents VEJ-M(. IS this tk 

mectingyouzuerefcrringto.tkMarch 12th. 1994,~+my0u 

had a mating with Mr. Hubbdl? 

A That’s right. Right. 

Q Andwhuewasthisma%ingkld? 

A According to this calcndar, it was at tbc Park Hyatt 

Hotel. 

Q Oh.IgucsswhitsaysA Melrose Room. That’s at tk Park Hyatt Hotel. 

Q bthisat8am.intbcmoming? 

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Page 31 

Mr. Hubbell’s situation? 

A No. no. 

Q InrtusmaGqwhatdidh4r.Hubklltcllyouk 

was loolung for ln ta-nS of work? 

A WeU.k’salaw~andksaidkwouJd-kbd 

an office. k wxs gong lo have an office sunewkrc k 

thought. and k would like 10 cootinuc what k was doing 

beforrkclnrmtotkgo~ t. That was to p!actmx law. 

to have clicnu. And I said. I’ll do whar I can 

Q Dd k ask you about pining your fum? 

A Hcddaoc. 

Q Did k ask you about any assistance you might k 

l bktoprovi&mjoiaqanyorbakwfmnsmtown’ 

A Hedidn’t. Hencwmamoncd)ornmgraoctaIrw 

frrmtoax. 

Q T)ld k itniicalc aq?hing. any respoclses k had 

gonen fnxl any law fams? 

A He bdn’~ 

Q Agam. wkr r)pc of work dxi k mdicar k wm*d 

tocllgagem? 

Page 32 

1 A No. 

2 Q Did k tell you any wnvusations that k had had 

3 with Mickey Kantor about &gning? 

4 A He didn’t. 

5 Q Or with M. Cardozo? 

6 A Hcdidoot. 

7 Q Or tk Fii: Lady? 

8 A He didn’t. 

9 Q OrQyouknowwhoBiUKamedyis? 

IO A Ya. I know who Bill Kmncdy is. 

II Q Did Mr. HubbelJ indicate whaber k had talked uxb 

12 Mr Krnnaiy about this oxittu? 

I3 A Hcdidnot. 

14 Q Asidefromtk-whatyouraountedhcxcsofar. 

15 did ynu have any otkr topics that you talked about mth 

16 Mr Hubbell that morning? 

I7 A I’msvemtaIkcdahoutgolf. Andlamsure~ 

18 taIka.l about tk poor quaJity of tk grits at tk Park Hyra. 

19 Q APP- telyaw&bcfazthatBanicNussbaczn 

l0 bad announced hi raignatioo as Whitt House counsel. [)ld you 

21 hvc any discussti about Mr. Hubbell’s resignation m hght 

22 of such a rcunt resignation by Mr. Nussbaum? 

23 A Not that 1 have any spcsif~ ncoucCtion of. 

24 Q Doyoubananygeocnl~~lkztioo? 

25 A I do oot Lvc any gmaal recollation of it. 

l .a Noks aa+ 

A He’s a lawyer of soax consickxabk apuwa He’s 

alitigatorofMnrccoas&rabkapaiavcandkhadhad 

somcapencacctbcnmtklusticc~tsok~~~ 

bus-s. 

Q Didkindicarcanyspaialtiatbatkhad” 

I A w likebreakfast. 

2 Mr. Hundky. Breakfast. 

3 BY Ms. COMSTOCK. 

4 Q Could you describe bow that matmg canx about’ 

5 A Webb calkd and said. I would like to sa you I 

6 said. la’s have breakfast. I cat breakfast a lot. WC had 

7 bmkfast. 

8 Q Did k indicate whar tk mating was going to k 

9 about? 

IO A No. k just said. let’s have brrakfast and at 

II breakfast k said. 1 am -- in effect. I am going to )cave tk 

12 Just& Dcpmt and I would like a life after that. and 

13 willyoukklpfultomc? AndIsaid.Iamhappytok 

14 MPfultoyaL 

I5 Q Did k tell you why k was kaving tk Justice 

I6 Dqarmunt? 

I7 A Said tkx was some problans having to do with tur 

I8 time at tk Rose Law Fii. He was not vay specific and I did 

19 not p- him spaifically. 

LO Q Didkindicatewhetkrornotkhadspokcnwitb 

11 tk Pxsidcnt about this at this time? 

12 A IdidnotaskhimandkdidoottcUnuwktkrk 

13 had spoka~ to tk Raidmt. 

!4 Q Rior to this nruing at 8 am. on March 12th, 1994. 

!5 bad anybody else in tk administration t&cd to you about 

es l ** 

! 

Page29-Page32 
1667 

Cnndcn.wl -_--_I___ t ” 

Page33 Pgc 3: 

I Q Do you tmvc any ga#rI ruolkctioa of &scussing 1 BY MS CmSTrxK 

2 with anybody in this time fm UU~ Uvcb of ‘94. tk &UC 2 Q How long did tlus bmkfast take thaw msrnmg? Hcu 

3 of two s&or law-s in tk adminisuation Mgnlng? 3 long did you v~it? 

4 A h is inconccivabk 1~ mu that tbtsc rw0 tv~l~~ 4 A Mayk an hour. 

5 coincihj that 1 did not have a convusatioo with sotxbody 5 Q And did Mr. HubbcU rndicatc to you ubar bc was 

6 about it. who. wbn. whar, unckr what sd of cifcttrttstantxs. 6 goingtodoaftarbatonthatday? 

7 1 da not know. 7 A Youmcantktrstoftkday? 

8 Q Do you mall if you had any convusations wilb tbc a Q Ub-hub 

9 Prcsidcnt about this? 9 A He didn’t indicate and 1 didn’t ask. 

#O A I did not ban a convcrsatioo with tk President. 10 Q Do you know if k was gomg to be ralLng 10 other 

II Q Do you mall if you bad any convaxations with h&k 1 I poopk about finding work? 

12 MC_? 12 A 1 don’t know tk answv to Rabat. 

.3 A I did not have any convusations with Mack MC- 13 Q He did not indicate to you any otkr poopk k was 

14 about tk Nussbaum m&nation, and J do not ~o!kzl a 14 goingmktaikingwith? 

!5 convasation about Hubbell’s rcsignadot~ That is not to say IS A I ba\z no recolkction of Webb HubbclJ telling me 

~ 6 that conversation did not take place. I have 00 gareral or 16 bow k was gomg to spend his Saturday. That was nom of my 

I7 specific recollection of any such c00wUti00. 17 business. 

!8 Q Al any tirx with Mr. Mchty? 18 Q Didktcllyouifkwasgoingtotalktoanyotba 

19 A Not that I can rsou&t. 19 pcopkabout - 

!O Ms.Comstock. I’dlikctomaktw-oac.tktih 12th 20 A I have no rccoiktin of a raitation of who k was 

!l cakndar entry, Exhibit 1. 21 going to talk to in that breakfast convaxation. 

!2 [Jordan Deposition Exhibit No. 1 22 Q tit suggestions did you give him about finding 

!3 was mark& for idmtiftcatioa.~ 23 work? 

!4 24 A I did not give him any swtions. I said Webb. 

!5 25 I’d~~klpyou~dIwilllhinkaboutit~dIwiUk 

$88 Notes l +* 

Page 35 Page 36 

1 back in touch. 1 introductions. Introductions to introduce HubkIl to Howard 

2 Q Andtkxnwbardidyoudonatfolbwingtbat? 2 Girds. I’m a manba of rhc Rtvlon Inc. board. 1 am 0~ of 

3 A WhatdidIdonort? 3 many c0unscl1~ Revlon and to McAndmvs 6 Forbes. I’ve bad a 

4 Q Yes 4 long rclauonship tkre. Howard is a friard of mine. Webb 1s 

5 A Ob.IthinkatEomcpoint~thatuc~~toNm 5 africndofminc. Iintroducaithcmandkfttkmtotalk. 

6 YorkandItookhuntoacliarrofminculdm~ucrdhrm 6 Q Sohowlongwrrcyouttueintba~matmg? 

7 Left him tkrc. and wu~ aboul my businas to New York 7 A Tm minutes, mayk. If that. 

8 Q Oksy. Aod that would k Mr. Howard Girds? a Q Had you called Mr. G&is prior to tbal to scl thabat 

9 A That is corre~f tk vice chsitman of McAndrrws Bt 9 up? 

80 Forbes. IO A I wouldn’t think w would have bad a ting 

,I Q TbisisvEH16s,aca~=tryfcrApril6tA. II -SC. 

12 1994, from Mr. Jadan. It imiicab a tmzfmg W&I 12 Q WbatdidyoutcllbimwbenyoucalkcI? 

13 Mr.Jadahh4r.HubbeU.w-itbMr.CiimsioNcwYrrkCityat 13 A 1 told him that Webb HubbeU was ka\ing tk Jusocc 

14 3:30 on that dart; is that colrat? ,I4 Dcpanmm~aodkwaslookingforworkandItboughttky 

I5 A That’s CAL ‘IS ~ttoba~~acEonversatiwandrbatIwaseoineu,brinshmr 

16 Mr Hun&y. Apt-11 6th 16 toNcwYorkfortLntomm. AndIdidrhar. 

17 Ms Gunstock. April 6th 1994. 17 Q AtthattimchadMr.HubbcU-Idoo’tkkve 

18 Mr. Hundky R&x. Ig htr. HubkU had kft tk Justuc ~atunax OffKid& up 

19 MS Cumslock Iwillgoakadaodmalrrrba:Exbib:t2 19 until tk 8th Was tkxr any discussloo on tk ruler or uba: 

!O (Jardan Dcposiuon Exhiiit No. 2 20 k could discuss about postunpmt? I)ld you have any 

!I wa.salarkedflxidaltifKztKm] 21 Lscussiou.5 mtb bim ahout that? 

12 BY Ms. -0CK 22 A Ididnot-WcbstczHubhcllwasafncndofmuwin 

23 Q Canyougcnaallydiscusswbatyw&scwcedu,rht 23 naxiaodIklpcdhimout. ItookhimtoNnvYorLandI 

24 mcdurgmtb Mr HubbelI? 24 int~~Iucui him 10 Mr. Gitti~. I did not ask quamns about 

25 A WeU,wbarIdidintbataxxiogwutomakc 25 tk l pprqniatams of this or tk apprwpriamns of that. 

l a* Noes 8*$ 

Page 33 - Page 36 
1668 

Page 37 Page 36 

1 Hcwas~fncodi0tmubk. Icwidkof-klpbbh I A it some pnnt dunq tk court of it I ullm3 IO 

2 tid I did it. Proudly. 2 Gittis a bt because k’s a clknt and baausc I'm a dlrumr 

3 Q Aad~t~Mr.(jlmr’rokaI~loo--Iun 3 of one of ti companlcr Al wba~ pomt m umc k saxi uz 

1 =4r. 4 baw consummated a deal ~7th Wcbslcr Hubbell. 1 cannot rc: 

5 A He is vie chumv~ of Mchdmw & Forkr. WhKh is 5 you. But a! some porn1 I was awax hat a xiauonshp had 

6 a holding cornpray for ctr vanoul CompMicl Owed by McAati 6 bzn fomwd and a relationship was m process. 

7 & Forks. Revloo hqx0s \o k o(y of tkm lk Cok- 7 Q Did you CVCJ speak wltb Ron Pearlman about hinng 

8 Cornpray 8s molhcr. Muvrl. u0Ol Ih: 0th dry, W 8 Mr. Hub&U? 

9 another. The Coosotidakd cigar compury ay morhcr. 9 A Carainly. At a maltu of fact I am cam that 

0 Q Would k be dr pzrwm ~avolved in hiring IO Chatin Pearlman a: some point dunng th first day met 

! coosullallrr? 11 with- met with Gittis. At Least I lhmk so. That’s a wry 

2 A WcU.l~~wubrpvv~vidrwhomIhrdhr 12 informal offxc struc!urc And I thk -- I think. altbougb I 

3 dai~~d~p. He VU a fnmd. md who hd supnvlrd my 13 cannot k sure. that Ron Pcarlman came in (0 say kilo bu: ! 

4 IclAtiooship with br conpray. ID ldditioo (0 br &.lllM0. 14 was only t&e for about 10 minutes. 

5 Aad~IulkdHHowud.~Iuid.I’mgoingto~~~ IS Mr. Hundly. Tkir offices M right tc@xz. oat to 

6 Hubk~to~scyou. ItookWcbbHubbcUronhun 16 cacbotkr. 

7 iotraiuocd him, a0d I kh 17 BY MS. COYSTOCR 

8 Q had do you bow what hppcoed ti tht? 18 Q So Mr. Pearlman may have cw in during this mahg 

9 A Well. hey had I coo~o. uhmtdy I dul vu 19 of April 6tb? 

0 coasumma ud ldonolbowQCtaihofdrrtLtuL ttoru 20 A That is cntinzly possibk, to say klb. that’s 

1 worked out a0d Hub&U I gucu kumc c~uo=L Tbc 0aNII: of 21 ahrely possibk. 

2 his ~taincr rclrtionhip. Q MM of tk work Qt k did. 22 Q Waz you aware of anyone otkr than you contacting 

3 I QO’I how q-thiq about bat. 23 Mr. Pearlman about Mr. HubklI? 

4 Q Doyourrcrllwk0youkuwddutkhrdba0 24 A I only know about my rehionship with him and about 

5 rtUi0Cd? 25 my contact with him. I know about nobody clsc’s. 

l ** Notes 8** 

Page39 Page 40 

1 Q Do you have any knowledge of Harold kka CVCI I Mr. Hubbell after that. after tis April 6th mating about any 

2 contactmg Ron fhrlman about Mr. Hubbell? 2 work k was doing for tkm? 

3 A 1 do not. 3 A Isawhim. I~khimtopbygoff. ButI’ma 

4 Q Do you know a Ban-y S&warn? 4 lawyer and k’s a lawyu. I don’t taIk about my business; I 

5 A BanyScbwar~isgcncralcounseltoMc-t 5 don’t apccr other lawyus to talk about tkirs. 

6 Forbes. 6 Q Did k CVQ thank you for inacducing him or 

7 Mr. Balla. I would lik to note far I& raord th 

8 Congrcssrnan Barrett has tivcd. ; gcnaally A I’m -Iion sure. He’s it? a grahous man. I’m sure k said 

9 MS &mstock. ~srnan. do you ha\= any qustions at 9 Ihanks. 

0 ths anr’ IO Q Did k evu ask you about anyMy else that you 

1 Mr Barrut. No. I I mqh be abk to put him in touch wxb? 

2 MS Comstak. lfatanytheyouwouldliketoaskmy 12 A Hedidnot. 

3 q\ations.plcascLam:luKnvIDd~arillnopqtrr~ner9d 13 Q Did you contact anybody else about assisting 

4 kxyougofoMlrd. 14 Mr HubbeIl? 

5 BY .Sis axlsrocy I5 A Ididnot. 

6 Q DoyouLnowwhstMr.Schwpo’srokwum~of 16 Q We had prcriously dtscussaj tk March 12th breakfast 

7 tiling web Mr. Hub&U? 17 mercmgth;rtyoukdwithKr.Hubkil. Wacyouawarrofa 

8 A 1Qmtkww. Whrywnrodloundustioocc~ 18 MucbI3tbmcainetbat~Ir.KantorhadulQMr.HubkU~ 

9 madetklnuoductwm.IwasfmiskdanthIlrpraus 19 A No. I’m oat aware of a March 13tb n~~ng. 

10 Q Sodoyouhveanyotbainfamaoooasto~~t 20 Q Wacyouawamofahlarcb l3tbrrutmgmtkVIho 

!I Mr. Hubbell did with rhc canpaoy - 21 House xsidmce with a number of Uhe House staff - 

!2 A Icbnot. 22 A No. 

!3 Q -aftuyouux~!~tkintralucaoo? 23 Q - in which Mr. Hubbell’s situatioo was discusxd? 

!4 A Idoaot. 24 A I’m not aware of that. 

!5 Q AnddidyoucwhaveanyausmtouIkto 25 Q Did ynu babr any bscussioas with anybody in bctuun 

8.0 Notes .*8 

Page 37 - Page 4C 
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Page 41 

tbnthhrcb 12thmcrangandhrcb 14tbwknMr Hubbd 

lAgfEd? 

A Not IO my rccoktion. 

Q Nobody calkd LOU to ask you yow opinion or tit 

you thougbr of tbc s1tlbahon prior to resignation7 

A Ithinkif1badbadacrUdtingthattimcIwati 

have rcnxmbaed. I do not tuoIkct any call. 

Q Sbowiq tk wimcss EOP 2032a. which tk U-h How 

bas infofrnuzl us arc mtcs from Mr. McLarry. 

A Ub-huh. 

Q Oncoftbcmentionsinthcscnotcs-tbqarca 

linkdifficuhu,~andIamsorryrhisistbcbcstcopy 

m bavC. EDP 20321. 

In the m&k of tk notes it says. “Law firms ductant 

to touch him.’ And undaneatb that it says, “Mickey to 

help” -boksLkeitsays”Vanon”ands~oftbcoth 

counsel. nlcy at% difTicult to read. 

Didyoucvrrbearanybodysayanytbingtotkdfatthat 

law firms are &ant to much Mr. HubbclI? 

A I’m no1 8wa.t~ of any discussion about hw firms in 

&hnship to tk anpbymnt of Wdxtu Hubbdl 

Q Do you know why Mr. M&arty’s notes wuuki indicate 

that you w going to bc Mping Mr. Hubbell? 

A Idonotknowtkanswcrtotbat. 

Q Rior to this b&ast mating that you bad with 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

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7 

8 

9 

IO 

II 

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13 

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16 

17 

18 

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[Jordan Deposition Exhibit No 3 

was marked for kkntilicatioa ] 

BY .MS OOMSTWC: 

Q Tkrx next records am 20326 through 27 WC ba\.c - 

and fwrc n-c. VR &vc rueived the from tk h’t~tc House 

rogctbalikc rtus and I am not rrpmung that ths u 

anything tit you luaved or not. I’m JUSt askmg yOU if YOU 

43 

lmvc ani knowkdgc &out this. 

Mr Hundky Sux Sux. 

BY ws coMsTocK 

Q No 20327 has handwntiq which may k fmn I 

saraa~~ of Mack Mchty but m arc unsure of wbrt tt says. 

‘YcmoaJ~farpuurdHlroldoa.parrm.33’~~ 

btogtapbxal mfa-mauoo on Webster Hubbell IS m rk kmt of 

this. 

Do you rurIl if you eyc~ rocdved any bmgnptncd 

tafamanca cm Wcbsu HubW fmn anybody at tk V&e 

House’ 

A If I Barr any bmphicll infcrmabon 00 W&SW 

Hubkll. I got II fran Websor HubbeLl. 

Q ~nobodyrttkWhitcf-husecvaoent)uu~y 

informatloa m Mr Hubbell? 

A NotrbatIknuwanythingaht. 

Q DoyouknowifHaroLdIckucvcrtahdepurbout 

sau&ng mfcmnahooa to you (I Mr. McLalTy? 

wit :‘r 

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Page 42 ; 

Mr Hubbell. you don’t rreall hti McCarty conxung you •~ 

any tmx ID ask you - 

A Idonot. 

Mr Hundky. Prior? 

Ms. Comstock. Prior to tie mating or afra tbc 

-F% 

/ 

Tk Witness. It is cntrrrly conccivabk that Mack 

MC- calkd me about Wcbstu Hubbell. It IS cntircly I 

cocrcclvabk that I said that 1 was trying to help Vl’cbstu 

HubkU to Mack M&sty. 1 do no01 raolkcr thar. But If be j 

cakd mc and said. arc you kiping Webb. I’m -In I said 

y= I 

BY MS COMSTOCK I 

Q Da you have any knowkdgr of Tnunan Amold assisting 1 

Mr Hubkll? [ 

A IdoW. ! 

Q Or Bernard Rapoport? 

A Idonot. IknowbothcftkmbutIdonotknow i 

they wuc doing for Webster HubbcU. i 

Ms. Comstack. I’m showing tk witness anoth document, 

EOT zoxsand 27. I wilI go rhrrd and make Mr. .McLarty’s 1 1 

IXXS Deposition Exhibit No. 3. ! 

! 

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i0 

II 

12 

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I5 

16 

17 

18 

I9 

K) 

II 

12 

13 

!4 

15 

A Tba~was nonc&forHaroldtosendmcany 

Page4 { 

information. Tbis says, “Vernon Jordan for you and Harold on j 

33 _ Tbat is not my handwriting 

Q I undartand that. 

A It IS auircly possibk lhat % wue on 33 togah 

Q Da you know what “33” is? 

A 1 assume It’s line 33. 

Mr. BaUcn. You are dskiq tk witness about a document 

~tk’socrcrs&nfmmtbcU~tcHwscandIthinLk’s 

1Eh. 

BY MS. COMSTOCX 

Q 1 am Just asking if you hvc any know@c what this 

Kxkringm. Ifyoudcm’t1amnotaskingyouto 

spauhc on it. 

A Wo. IQ not. 

Ms. Gmsuxk. Make that Dzpodcm Exhht Numkr 4 

[Jordan Rposi~ Exhibit No. 4 

was markal fa idmtifiiatian.] 

Ms. Cornstock. For tk record m also ba\t mtkr 

Ma,tity staff manbu p-t Mr. Bob Dold ML-D And wc 

also ha\= additional Mintity staff prualt. Phil Scbiiim, 

SC-H-I-L-I-RX). and .hh McLaughlin. 

.%.Hundky. Whoistbcladyiptbcpurpk’ 

Ms. Cotnstock. That is also a Minority staff=. I wiU 

kt you spell it. 

Page41 -Page44 

1671 

WYYIY-a. 

Page 49 Page 50 

1 Q And when did you fit% kam that Mr. HubklI ~7s I A I’m a - wldl I’m nol a prtacba. and so It was my 

2 going to k pkading guilty to tk legal billings problrmr? 2 vim tkt if 1 was wth him. that’s tk kst thmg k wan& 

3 A Act&y. I think I read I(. I bad no notice of iL 3 u, talk abour and so I didn’t pursue that u-h bun It was 

4 and tk~~ was no convQsauon bctwun us about it. 1 thd I 4 none of my business. 

5 read it in the newspapa or kard it on tk news that night. 5 Q Did you cvu discuss his guilty pka ~7th tk 

6 Q Did you have any discussions with Mr. Hubbell about 6 Resident? 

7 this afta the. fact what you hmai of it? 7 A Ididnot. 

8 A No. I didn’t. 8 Q Or tbc First Lady? 

9 Q YOU did have contact with Mr. Hubbell afta? 9 A I have not discussal his guilty pka uxb rbc 

0 A Yeah. Isawhimbdorekwenttojail. 10 F’m&ttt or tk Ftit Lady. 

I Q AtoraroundtbctimofhisguiIrypltainDctcmbcr II Q Or any ok Nlutc How officials? 

2 of 1994, did you have any convo-sations with him? 12 A No. 

3 A IaatsurcIcaIMhimorkcaIkdt.nctosay 13 Q WOZ YOU IW~IZ of his work with MC/LIK!EM & Fork 

4 go&-& but I bavc no raoIkction of any s-ific 14 being cmcclal II lk time of his guilty pIea? 

5 con\wtion with him about any of his problem. accpt to tk 15 A I ant aware that tk conmct was in fact tcrminataj, 

6 atmt of its concan about his family. 16 yes. 

7 Q Now k pkd guilty in thanbu of ‘94. but k didn’t 17 Q Did you have any discussions with anybody about 

8 go on to jail until August of ‘95 SO tkrc WBS an B-a~mtb I8 tImI? 

9 period ~~ISC during that tit%. 19 A lky told tx about it. 

0 A Yeah. AndIsawb.imduringthttimc. Itmkhim 20 Q Wlmtoldyw? 

1 to phy golf. I took bim to hcb. 21 A Howard Ginis, I’m sttx 

2 Q And did you cvff discuss tk ckrges with him? 22 Q And what did tky tell you? 

3 A I did not. 23 A Just that m lcrmjnatcd tk contract. 

4 Q Did k ever say at@ing to you about wkhr k 24 Q hdwbydidtbcysaytbcywattinatingit? 

5 fdt k was guilty of tbcsc ckrgcs or not? 25 A Bascdonhisguiltypka. Period. Endof 

*** Notes 888 

Page 51 Page 52 

1 ccmvusation. I undastood it and tky undastmd that I 1 they had barn betrayed by Hubbell or victimitad by him? 

2 un&-staxJ if and it was a mattu of infamung UK hause I 2 A No. 

3 h%d intrcduccd thn. 3 Q Did you discuss with Mr. Hubkll setting up trust 

4 Q bd thy aprcss any concp-n to you about wberha - 4 fun&? 

5 oot knou-mg about tlus Woreband m surprtsc at 11’ 5 A hir. Hub&l sent me a daumatt. actuaUy a onqagr: 

6 A I don’t tuokct any surpnsc. U-bat I undmwod 6 rhxrmt about a trust fund for his kids and I ha\-c that 

7 IS uhat tky vywzd tku responsibility to tk cnporao~n 7 dccunutt sutxhzc. You have it because wz 5a~t it to you. 

8 aDdtotkmscIvcsInthisprocus.andtkyEmJmedtk 8 Mr. Hundky. You bati it. 

9 UXXTXL ubcb I &ally unchtood. 9 Ms. Canstak. 7%~ is LEJ z tbrougb 5. It was provi&d 

0 Q U’a-c you sqrtvd by his gtuhy pLa? 10 by Mr. Jordan. 

,I A Iwassadforbnnandfor~scucumsuPce II M.BaIh. IwcUIdIlketoao~fortkrccard 

it Pu-ki. 12 congKsmuncummiogs. 

i3 Q ~dthiscancuanrrpriscroyuuwbakpled I3 Mr. Gunstock. Congressman. would you Iikc to ask 

14 guilty? I4 qustxms at this point? 

I5 A WeII%dn’lknuwiLiftkt’swb8tyar~ 1 IS Mr Cummbgx No. I just would I&c to sit tn right 

16 badnotdcawba~wasg~ingon. Anddwas-duas-8tcwu 16 now 

17 sadandIfcIt~fabiscircumslatKcuyarwouIdfcsMy 17 Ms.Curutock. KfatanytinxyouwouIdIiketoask 

18 frrnd m a sunhr situawo 18 quacions, please kt UE know and m will cease sod aUow you 

19 Q UbatwasyouruDdastandingofwhttudacunod 19 IO proceed. 

to u-lrh hrs firm? 20 Tk Witness. HeUo. How arc you? 

11 A 1havcnotuuhtandingofwktacwcdalh~ 21 BY .MS coMffo0L 

12 firm. &XI I did not pumx with hrm svht otcurrzd at bs fm 22 Q Tbisisahfxcb20tb 1995,knatoyoufrom 

23 smtpty baause &at was tmt my busiras 23 Mr. Hubbell whsing fax sbccts and a &al Dcfrnsc Trust and 

24 Q DidtkhldcntcrFiFint~a8opacrtQ 24 hts Childm’s ml Family Trusts, which k indicates k 

15 WhitcHouscevaaprcssoyouanyconurns afahgsthat 25 &scLusal last DRanbu. 

+O* &,t,,~~ Ilt 

Page 49 - Page 52 
1672 

Condcnsci t 1x, 

Page 53 

I Do you ruall having a discttssion with him in lhxmtu it 1 

Page 54 

2 oruoundtktimcofbispkaabouttktrusts? 

my Corporrk caqkgn wkn I was tk kad of tk United Nwo 

2 ColkgcFund. 

3 A IrrxaUhissayingrhetkulasgoing~orcre 3 Q ti you aware of anyone essisting De4 Wetkms m 

4 WI and tit k wanti to share tk document with mc. and k 4 gming l job -xh Celleway Golf? 

5 obviously askcd me to k klpful in tk trust. 5 A No. I’m not. 

6 Q blat is your knowkdgc about tk trust? 6 Ms. Cornstock. I am going to make this .March 20th. 1995. 

7 A Just u-hat’s on this piac of papa. 7 loner rqardq Legal Dcfcnsc Funds Dcpos~uon Exhibit No. 5. 

8 Q Did you have any ti discussions with him after 8 [Jordan Deposition Exhibit No. 5 

9 k Mt Lbc loner in March of ‘95? 9 us twIrLed for ickntification.] 

0 A No. 1 had no h&u discussions. 1 did not put 10 BY StS COSSTCICK 

I fonb en cffon as relates to rbc trust and I did not I1 Q You tndxaccd that you kept in touch uxb 

2 contnbur 10 it. 12 

3 

Mr. Hubkll throughout tk time prior to his gong to jail. 

Q /LIZ you aware of oh contributing to tk oust? 13 War: r&ct pnmarily social visits? 

4 A lamnot. 14 A Sock1 acasions. right. 

5 Q And you did not solicit any conaibutions to rk 15 Q Did you visit with his wife else? 

6 trust? 16 A No. it was - it was Webb end myself, basically, for 

7 A I did not. 17 ltmcb or for golf. I did not visit with Suzic. 

8 Q Youhadmcntionedyouarc&tkMofMlaway 18 Q Anddoyourccallifyouhadenyoftkscgolf 

9 Golf! 

0 A Y&I. 

19 outingswithtkPrcsidcnt~tkguiltyplca? 

20 A No. 

1 Q Did you cvcr ask aoyooc et Callaway Golf for any 21 Q ArcyouewaxofanyeffortsettkWhkHouscfor 

2 essismncc faa Mr. Hubkll? 22 tk Pmidmt not to socialix with Mr. Hubkll eftu his 

3 A Iuasektcdtotk~bvaybodhstwcck. 23 guiltypkd? 

4 Q Oh. Did you know Ely Callawey prior to that? 24 A I’m oot am na I’m not. 

5 A Ive ’ known Ely Callaway since 1970 when k chati 25 Q And you have indicated tbat you kept in touch with 

**I No tes l ** 

Page 55 

1 Mr. Hubbell while k was in jail? 

Page 56 

I 

2 A Well. he basically kept tn touch with mc You have 

ln hoc of 94. ‘ you hrd * dinneT It your born. It yL( -- 

2 

3 tklcncrs 

or a hod-mung MOL Let m w Umr for you. Sbmmg 

3 drwnDcss1 emonadum&kdJune 17th. 1994. ~SDNC 

4 Q Did Mrs. Hubbell c\u call you durq hat tuxx” 4 

A Itookkrtodi.nnerIthinkcmtwocca.wms h 

~ts7w4utmugh47. AcNbuy,lIhinkI~youtwo 

5 5 Eoprr I bclbrw fl u 576444 ttuou& 45. is a June 17th 

6 occaslonhcmakarefcrenatomhisictm 6 

7 Q And&dyoucvcr--thisis~~I3thqb 16 Is 

mdum (0 .~JI Jordan from lr~n HUT@=. Sloml Finma 

7 lhmxor. Rc- lawbIloos to June 2odl dianer bl ctr 

8 ths the lenn you M referring to? 8 kndam’. Irmsomy.rhisdsknentbutwocti~-t&es 

9 A Yes 9 

.O MS Comstock Make that Dcpos~~on Etiblt No 6 

aon ~tufaP~,~rDm:l~su~~47,bur 

lo P~3~4hnr~*ofknc16rh;cbcfvrrprgbur 

:I [Jordan Deposiuoa Exhbtt No 6 II dadJune 17b 

I2 was nmrkcd for idcnticatm.] 12 MscJusy nc-rlsfourprgln? 

#3 BY .MS CO-. 13 .a CmlsIock Yes. 

,4 Q Orbatbmtklc~dtkvisttswnrb I4 eYt6 on4snxk 

85 Mn. Hubbcll,didyoucvahavcanyothtroccaYonswhrle 15 Q byoumcdtismat? 

,6 Mr. Hubkll was tn jail to have cootact W&I Mr OT 16 A Icnsatmyhour. 

.7 Mrs. Hubbtll? 17 Q byoukemwbovnnepd~isvitt~you? 

t8 A lcbdnot. 111 A Wbtdoyoumrat~? 

:9 Q Dtdyoucvervisithimmjail? 19 Q Wmumpdtobwedtiswee~~t~ou~i,c,a’ 

!O A I&dnoc. 20 A la1994.mywlfcudlwwccbrLmcodBcDhr 

!I Q Okay. WehavcavisitorfomIbekvcrhuyoubad 21 gah.udI~~~&bul~~~+~~~,dbig~tim 

!2 provldal. 22 pI33ClobtdIIILUT. ’ ~twUillCOlbJUDCtiOOWith~ And 

!3 A ButIncvavisitalmdIncvcrspoketobmby 23 sJitvubfued-NsiegditlW. 

!4 ptxmcwhrlekwastknz. 24 Q byoutedwt~~uhdyoutobtievo~vitttuut 

!S Q Okay. Thank you. 2s cvcor? lb&lib? 

8** Notes 888 

Page 53 - Page 56 
1673 

Condcnscltw 

Page 57 Page 58 

1 A 1 don’t -- I mean, I du3.L know. hiaybt it was tk I Q YOU hew no ida bow k cam LO k on 011s list? 

2 chairmanoftkparty. Idon’tknow. Ijustdidit 2 A It must ha\= ken e Lst of pa+pk that was sent to 

3 because -- It was a very suazssfuI dinner. WC raised a lot 3 us by tk DSC 

4 of money for the Democratic PaRy. 

f 

Q And YOU MV spoke witb anyone about Mr. Tnc ~7 

5 Q Do you know how tk guest list was organid? Who palticular being oo his list? 

6 picked tk gust list? 6 A No. no. 

7 A I’m sux it was a combination of people we thought 7 Ms. Coatsock. htakc DSC VW throw 47. make tbai 

8 should be there and a combmation of people the DKC thought 8 &position Exhibit 7. 

9 shouldtctherc. [J&en Deposition Exhibit No. 7 

0 Q Do you recall from reviewing tk list who you had 10’ uas merkcd for identification.] 

1 suggested be there? I1 BY ss. ccMsTOCK 

2 A No, I don’t. 12 Q Do you know tk Riedys at all? 

3 Q Duexing your attmtm to the last page of the 13 A I do not. 

4 doament, DSC 576447. 14 Q You haw avu met tkm to your knmkdgc? 

5 A Uh-huh. IS A No.Ihevenot. 

6 Q The last entry on tkrc is Charlie Trie for an 16 Q Tk wbio~ How had provided reparts indicating ha: 

7 invits and it das note that it is unconfumed at this date on 17 you had travzhl on Air Fora One on a number of occasions; is 

8 June 17th. 18 that comut? 

9 A Yes. 19 A I&nkoathraacasiotu iotk4ymrsthtk’s 

0 Q Do you rccaI1 if you had askd for Charlie Tric to 20 ban Rcsidmt. I came beck frun New York once with him. I 

1 be included on the guest list? 21 wcnttoNixm’shwalwi~himonAirForrtOnc.andI~t 

2 A I’m sure it was txomnxnckd. Idon’t know Charlie 22 to-I~ttoEarbareJordao’sfumal,andIthinktbose 

3 Trie. Nevn sari him in his life. 23 arctktimstbat1watt. Atx3maybctoDova.DdawarcI 

4 Q He didn’t atumd tk dinner. then? 24 maybavcbccoooAirForccOoc, Ithinkfourtims. 

5 A No. 25 Q Okey. WC have a nxcnd of you kin8 on Air Font 

800 Notes 888 

Page 59 Page 60 

1 OnconOctckrl2th.1996. TkisisadocumentprcpMdbytk I dcbae prcpareticxl? 

2 We House Tnvcl By Fioaxial Supportax Jeouuy 1st 2 Mr. Balh 1 am going to object. If counsel can 

3 1995. through Nova&v 6th 1996 Air Face Ooc end 3 aphin bow Mr. Jadao’s discus~ioo of policy issues for t!z 

4 accarqsanyng klicop~. brd April 14& 1997. ud It IS 4 tkbat preparation xlatcs tD this invmtigation. mayk I can 

5 Batcr sump NO. 3860 &RX&I 72. And Page 6 of QS documnt 5 mrbdraw my obpion. 

6 indicates an Octokr 12B 1996 - 6 BY Ms. axaKTocK 

7 Tk Witness. And this is alroufc to wkxt? 7 Q I em asking gtmcrdy about tbc discussions that yw 

8 MS Caxstock. bdicatcr Ram. Albqrraqu. 8 badwithhimtofmdoutif&ctopicoftkiJJ@fordgn 

9 TkWitnms Ob.)a. ItwaS-Iwu-Iwuitl 9 tnoncycarrrup. 

IO hlbuqucq~ for tk &batc pqaradoa &at’s n&t 1 wes IO A Tbctopicoftkikgalforcignmoocywasnot 

II ioAlbquaqucfortkdcbar:p~watikwoclhrr II discusd in AIbuquc?quc. 

12 Force~fmmAIbqrrrquctoSao~futk~r:untb 12 Q OrWPtitdiscussaiataUintbecourscofaoy 

13 !hatu DOL. 13 dchatc pltpantim thrt you participati in? 

I4 BYMSCOh4STUX 14 A Iwasootepartofaoysucbdiscussioo. 

IS Q And you uve invohrd in tk &bee pquatxm” I5 Q myat. 

16 A Iwastbxfarthc~ep~txm. 16 Q DoyouknowaGcneorNaraLum? 

17 Q Thiewasettbcrimc~racrroftk~m I7 A Wk? 

18 ilkgillf~mo0yh8dbmLniatbc~S. DoyourrxlU 1s Q Ga~~crN~Lum? 

19 tt~vtng any discussions ebatt bsc mattm m tbc wum of 19 A IdoooI. 

20 dcbatcprcpuaoon? 20 Q Wac y o u l wrc of any busims effiliations tbat RXI 

21 A AlbqurqucwasabiPntwothingL &bee 21 BrownhedtithGencaNcnLum? 

22 prcparatwn end golf. 22 A fmadebouttiun. 

23 Q You~golhgetthttmztithtk~idcnt? 23 Q lstbattbc~tofyaaknowledgc? 

24 A 1 pb@ golf witb rbc hitit twia. 24 A Thatistbcartotofmykoowkdgc. 

25 Q ~dyoudiscwspokyisnnmtkfourrcoftk 25 Q And do ye know Mickl Brown. Mr. Ron Browa’s son? 

8.8 No tes l *A 

Page 57 - Page 60 
1674 

GMldcnseit~ 

Page 61 Page 62 

1 A Yes. I know h4icbacl &own. I saw kr II Sawry Brown’s f-1 

2 Q Wac you awax of his conr~~tions with @=ruc 2 Q And do yap raalI who sk was rnexlng uxb wkn you 

3 Enugy? 3 fit YW kr? 

4 A I rrad about It. 4 A ‘ No. I don’t 

5 Q AndtbatistbcatentofyourknowLrdgc? 5 Q Wuc you aware of ha busmess assoclauons wiL 

6 A That is tk aMt of my know-. 6 Mr. Brown? 

7 Q Do you know tkir daughrcr. Tricia Lum? 7 A Ireadabouttkm. 

8 A I do not how anybody. a Q And did you have any howkdge. *bough pnor U, 

9 Q Sk worked at Commerce DeparrmCnt? 9 fcsdmg about tlxn? 

0 A I don’t know ba. 10 A I bad no kaowkdg~ of tk business relationships 

1 Q Were )w awax of any fundnhg by a group caucd 11 b Nolanda HiIl and Sarctary Brown. 

2 MAC in 1992? 12 Mr. Bah. Counsel. 1 am gong to obJazt. Mayk I have 

3 A I have no ruolkction of annyrhing about MAC m 13 missal it in tk xsolution on deposttion authority. but 

4 1992. 14 questions as to Mr. Brown arr quite far afrld kz. If tky 

5 Q DoyouhaveanyknowlcdgcofRonBrownworkingti 15 ax in tk r~~oluhn. if you can point it to myxeIf and 

6 APAC in 1992? 16 pubaps Point it to counsel. 

7 A 1 do not. 17 Ms. Coa~~tak. I think tbc witness bas already answauJ 

8 Q Do you know wbo Nolan& Hill is? 18 tk qustions. 

9 A Ycs.Ido. 19 Mr. Htmdly. Are you though with that subjat, Brown? 

0 Q Andcouldyourclluswboskis? 20 A.m you tkougb wi&~ Mr. Brown? 

1 A I’ve md about ha. Sk’s a businesswcrmra ud 21 Ms. COtnSIOCk. I think I may lmr some questions on tk 

2 1’~ sari her twice in my life. 22 CunmenxDcpumrntingcncral. 

3 Q And on what occasions? 23 Mr. Hundky. WelI k’s try. 

4 A I saw her as sk was eating breakfast with w 24 BYh4S.- 

5 clscinthcParlrHyartHo~iandIsaidgoodmorning.~I 25 Q Watyouawareofanyl 8* No tes l ** 

Page 63 Page 6-l 

1 Mr. Hundky. WC want to move aloog 1 campah and wc did sonrhing about it. 

2 BY MS amsfax 2 Q This elf a ~~~w~tioo wirh tk Prcsidcat? 

3 Q- of soy effons to inchxk political coot+= 3 A It was a con~o;oo with tk Prcsidm~ p. 

4 on nadc tnissms at tk canmacc DtpaQ=t? 4 Q Anddidkaskyoutopbooeorbasandrrisemoney? 

5 A Idonotknowanyb~qrboulth:opar==d~ 5 A HcaskcdrnetokIpwithfundnising.and”kIp 

6 GxnmaccDepanmcotundaSaruavBrowrr. 6 with liindtisir& mc~s caIlin8 paopk. 

7 M Qmwock. &uldmtakeJusta5Qmuob~aodI 7 Q Anddopurccall..~this~raiscdatorabout 

8 am almost finiskd up bsc. 8 tktmzx? 

9 Mr Hun&y. Youarealmostth@’ 9 A Ididmy~l.iaLthingbymyseIf.andraisal.1 

0 MS Gunstock. Is’s go off tk KC& 10 thnlL s220.000. Somuhhg Like that. 

1 [Bnef Raess. 1 I:36 am. To 1144 am.1 11 Q Doyouti~yooeelscyou~toattk%r 

,2 BYHsooMsToQL 12 Hcuscaboutnising&ismoncy? 

13 Q ThisiaaSepanber 16th 1994.unnof~cantk~?nt 13 A Thar BUC cnova%Aons with Ickcs about tk 

I4 H~~~r~z~stkou&276.tnho~hHudd 14 pfuasstbat~ofnevergotgoingintkwaythatwasboped 

is lcka. Andtktllmodiscussatimgf4millrrrforr~ 15 thtitwouldgusoI~tonmyown. Iraisedtkmoncyand 

16 campaign In tk fall of 1994. 16 sattit. 

17 Andtkthrd~pbattbcboaomoftk~ 17 Q Totica;c! 

18 ithcatcstbtpmposodplanistok~tkth:tit~ 18 ’ A Totkac. 

19 VuoonJordan.&mudScbwarud~~~Jay 19 Q Did yw Lvc any conva~rhs with anjwr otkr 

20 RakcfclkooMmdaymrzLdaemifQy~m~ 20 than Mr. Icka? 

I1 solmt 10 substantial donas. ail d whom hvr w pa= 21 A IthinkitwasallHa&l. 

12 xlatiosllips mtb this adminhath. 22 MS. cannock I will make that hposition Exhibit 8. 

23 DoyoureUll~tllistiLncfraInzSqMnnb=19%il~ 23 [Jordan Deposition mitt No. 8 

24 f4hdcntd.id~youaboutnisingmo& 24 was marked fa i&hficat&l.] 

2s A Wckuircoova’sationabouttk~f~tkbc 25 

I.8 No tes l a * 

Pagc61-Page64 
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BY MS. COMSTOCX: 

1675 

Condcnsclt’ 

T Page 65 

Q This is another similar nrmo for the Presidcnl from 

Harold Ickes, and the subject is telephone calls to Vernon 

Jordan, Senator Jay Rockefeller and Bernard Schww 

CGRG 1430 through 143 1, which is a document produced by 

Mr. lckes. 

Mr. Ballen. Excuse me, Court& Before you ask 

qwstions. could the Minority = a copy of this proposed 

exhibit? 

Q And other than thcs conversations you have relati 

today about Mr. Hubbell’s guilty plea, which I behcve 

tdicated that you did not have d~~~~ons with anyone. an 

llnz any other discussions you had with anyone about hi 

gay plea? 

A No. 

(Document proffered.) 

BY MS. COMSTOCK: 

Q Did you want to review the document? 

A Yes. yes. 

Q Okay. The szond paragraph of the memo indicates 

there would be a breakfast involved in this. Do you reeaII if 

you had such a breakfast? 

A Yeah,t.herewasnobmakfast. 

MS. Cornstock I’lI make that Deposition Exhibit 9. 

[Jordan Deposition Exhibit No. 9 

was marked for irkntification.] 

BY MS. COYS-lOCK: ’

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m-w NO& l ** 

Q Have you had any involvement in the Rtsi&nt’s 

legal defense fund fund-raising efforts at any time? 

A I’ve raid some money for the Resident’s legal 

ckfensc fund and I have contributed to it 

Q When did you first learn of the qustionable 

doMtions by Charlie Trie? 

A Ireadaboutthem. 

Q And that was the extent of your knowledge, is what 

youreadinthepress? 

A That was the extent of my knowiedge. 

Ms. Comstoek. I believe that is all I have at this 

tinx. 

Q Othcrt.hanthcumvcrSatitmsyouhavt~tcd 

today, did you ever have any otkr discussions wtth the 

president about Mr. Hubbell’s resignation? 

A No. 

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Page 67 

uuMM.4noN BY hat B.uLm+ 

Q hir.Jcrdm.I’dliketotakctbisoppammyrm 

kbalfoftkMin&tyoftkcolnlnirkeotiunkyoufa 

appcariogtoday. YoUb8VebadaoaUur+disMguukrJ 

camz in crvil tigbrs. tk prcsicknt of tk Natmnal Urban 

Lcagucbcforctbsr,andsmcetbmuadistmgwsMbwyu 

and advlsor to pr&daSs. moprofit capuatioos. prokit 

rxrpmcpops Youbavc~kzc2txnmaDdumwcdsaY.K 

farbcr usulsrvc qucstiofls bun MaJmty cmmd. and I want 

tot!lankyoufncaningbmCandgmngso&gcmmustyofyarr 

mat. 

A Tkankyou. 

Q DidtkRui&mt-yourcerpimoay.uI~ 

~neitbrrtkRsidentoartbcFmtIdy~ukcdyouto 

prow& any usmancz wbatsawz IO Wcbsm Hubkll? 

A No. 

Q DidanyomattkWhir:Hauccwkllyourby 

unaedmbt$,WebsnHubklliordumdmbmfmn 

cmting wltb tk ifl&pmdalt CounJ for any a& 

f5SCXlS? 

A No. 

Q Wtm Wcbsler Hubbell umc to you. you bad rbsolmty 

norcssoowtmLsomumthinktbatwumyposs~bkcrmunal 

cmductinvolvrdoohisput;didyou? 

A Ididnot. 

Page 66 

Q OrwiththeFirstLady’ 

A No 

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Q YoubcIpcdhimasapersooaIfr#ld. 

A Absolue. 

Page 61 

Q AndyoudidafavaforbimuapawrYIfrimd. 

A Absolutely. 

Q Witbmt any influence by anyooe wbatsomz. 

A zuo. 

Q Infactwbmyouagnzltoklpbimyoubadno 

cmat with aoyooe prioz ID that otba than Mr. Hubbell; is 

that carrect? 

A Tbatiscomct 

Q R.qmenutive Cmdit bat sevual qrndcms that k 

wan8cdtomrksuretbatmahclyw. 

Have you b askaI by any ottm off&I invcst$ati~ 

bcdytomifyorprovickcvidenccudocuxmltsinmyoftbc 

mates under inquixy today by this coatmime? 

A IthinkIwasaskdbytkindcpcadcPtcounul. 

Mr. Hund& Fcr doeumcnu. 

Tbt Witness. Fa document subpoena. 

BY MR BALLm: 

Q Andotkrth~thatyouhvcnotbunasM? 

A No. 

Kr. Hundly. Far the record m got a daumnt subprrna 

frun tbc imkpaxht counsel that was r&z duplicative of 

tbcsubpeunduaskcummgotfKJmthiseanmiao:pal&rig 

2 to HubbeII. 

es l ** 

- Page 65 - Page 61 
1676 

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Mr. Balkn. Tank you, sir. 

BY MR. BALLm 

Q Can you ertimatc, M. Jordan, bow much of your tinx 

you ba\c spent mponding to this committa and tk document 

subpanas you have gor? YOU ban takat thaw from your )ob. I 

imagine, to respond to tksc requests and your normal work 

sckduk? 

A WcU. it has h aU of this morning. And tkz 

was some pxparation involved. some consultshon with counsel. 

obviously. 

Q Has this committee offered to reimburv you for any 

apascs? 

A Not that I’m aware. 

Q Would you seek rcimbmt? 

A I doubt it. 

Q Tbankyouvcrymuc4sir. 

BY Ms. ohisTO(X: 

Q In March of ‘94. you wc~ aware that Mr. Hubkllattktiawkrsignad~youawarrthathislaw~ 

wut taking action against him? 

A I have no rccoktioo of - 

Q when Mr. Hubkll mignai from tk Justia 

Department in March of 1994. you see aware that his law 

pannCn wre raking action against bim baaw of MM: 

billing disputes? 

A Iknovhrcuasaprobkm Tknatuxoftk 

p&km. spailically. I did not know about that. But I h 

that tbcrr was a probhn ktwun Webb Hubkll and tus fcrmer 

p~sattkRoxLwFum. AndIknmtiwasa 

probh. Ptiod. 

Q Did you sak out any information about that problem 

in crdu to dacrm~nc with or not you should be 

rrrcxnmading Mr. HubkU lo your feds? 

A No. no. I did not. 

Ms. Cornstock. Thank you. Mr. Jordan. for your tune Lhrs 

morning. WC appruiatc your time and wt arc done for k 

tuord today. 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

I 0 

1 I 

I 2 

1 3 

I 4 

I 5 

1 6 

I 7 

1 8 

I 9 

i !O 

i !I 

i !2 

i !3 

i !4 

i !5 

888 Notes **8 

Page 70 

[Ukcupon. at 11.55 am., tix deposition was conch&d.) 

I 

2 

I 

4 

s 

b 

7 

a 

9 

IO 

II 

I2 

13 

I4 

IS 

lb 

I7 

II 

I9 

10 

11 

12 

23 

24 

1s 

Pqc 72 

Page 69 - Page 72 
3377 

-- 

I ; :; : .- :, 

:a :, :, :- :, G Y I 

VEJ-064 
1678 

i Q:l: 

1030 

IQ15 

II 

II:15 

I I:30 

11:45 

1230 

12:45 

1 

I:15 

130 

1:As 

_2 

2:15 

230 

245 

VEJ-Of35 
1679 

EOP 020328 

COMhlITTEE ACCESS 
1680 

WEBSTER L. HUBBELL 

Biographical Information 

, 

Webb Hubbell was appointed Associate Attorney General by 

President Clinton. Within the United States Department of 

Justice, he oversees the work of the Civil, Civil Rights, Antitrust, Tax, and Environment and Natural Resources Divisions. 

also has oversight responsibility for the Immigration aid

Naturalization Service, 

Review, 

the Executive Office For Immigration 

the Office of Legal Counsel, Office of Legislative 

Affairs, Office of Information and Privacy, 

Relations Service, the Executive Office 

the Community 

For United States 

Trustees, and tile Foreign Claims Settlement Commission. 

Honored as one of the Best Lawyers in America for the past 

four years, Hr. Hubbell was a managing partner in the Rose Law 

Firm of Little Rock vhich he joined in 1973. He interrupted his 

tenure at the Rose Law firm in 1984 to serve as Chief Justice of 

the Arkansas Supreme Court. 

In addition to his professional accomplishments, Hr. Hubbell 

has extensive public service experience. He served as Mayor of 

Little Rock from 1979-81; on the City Board of Directors from 

1978-84 and in a number of other civic positions over the years. 

He has been active in the Arkansas Bar Association, in the House 

of Delegates from 1976-79, and on the Executive Committee from 

1978-80. Hr. Hubbell has also served on a number of hoards and 

commissions including: Visiting Nurses Association of Pulaski 

County Board of Directors (1976-84)‘ President (1978-82); 

Arkansas Art Center, Board of Directors (198S-91), Treasurer 

(1980) ; Little Rock Downtown Partnership, Board of Directors 

(1984-1992); University of Arkansa$ at Fayetteville, National 

Development Counsel (1986-1992); University of Arkansas Medical 

Sciences Foundation; and Little Rock Boys Club, Board of 

Directors (1988-1992). 

XL- . %-.r.cbell was an *xcellrrlt student and athlete as a young 

man. Drafted by the Chicago Bears -- an offer he passed up to 

pursue a law degree. He graduated with honors from the 

University of Arkansas at Fayetteville in 1973. Hr. Hubbell 

received a B.S. in Electrical Engineering from the University of 

Arkansas at Fayetteville in 1970. 

Hr. Hubbell is married to Sutanna Ward and the couple have 

four children, Walter, Rebecca, Caroline, and Kelley. 

EOP 020326 

COMMITTEE ACCESS 
1681 

0 

(7 

7 

3 

0 

)r 

c’ 

0 

w 

(1 ‘

iv) 

- 

2 

0 

0 

d 

d 

3 

EOP 020327 

COIMMITTEL ACCESS 
1682 

March 20. 1995 

WEBSTER HUBBELL 

l2lS Is+- STREET. N. w. 

WASHINGTON, 3. c. 20036 

The Honorable Vernon Jordan 

Akin. Gump. And Strauss 

1333 New Hampshire Avenue, N.W. 

Washmgton. D.C. 20037 

Dear Vernon: 

Finally. I am enclosing the Fact Sheets on the I.+ Defense Trust and the Children’s 

and Family Trusts we discussed last December. Your help is appreclatcd more than you can 

possibly know. I hope we can visit soon. 

Webb Hubbell 

VBJ-002 
1683 

WEBSTER HUBBELL LEGAL EXPENSE TRUST 

Established by Friends of Webster Hubbell 

0 The primary purpose of this Trust is to assist Webster Hubbell 

in meeting the personal legal expenses and related costs 

incurred by him. 

Q Contributions may be accepted from individuals, corporations, 

labor unions, partnerships, political committees or other 

entities. Donors who arc not individuals (i.e., corporations) 

should consult vith their tax advisor regarding the gift tax 

implications of gifts to this Trust. 

0 Contributions are limited to a maximum of SlO,OOO per 

individual per year. 

D Contributions are not deductible for federal, state or local 

income tax purposes. 

. Donors to the trust may make donation free of the federal gift 

tax up to SlO,OOO per individual Donor or S20,OOO per Donor 

Husband and Wife. 

0 Anonymous contributions vi11 not be accepted by the Trustee; 

however, identity of the Donor vi11 remain confidential if 

requested by the Donor. 

0 All contributors should provide their names, addresses and 

telephone numbers. 

0 Contribution checks should be made payable to the Trust and 

sent to: 

Webster Hubbell Legal Expense Trust 

c/o Wichael C. Schaufcle, CPA, Trustee 

P. 0. Box 1126 

Little Rock, Arkansas 72203-1126 

0 Contributions will be acknovledged by the Trust. 

v&J-o03 
1684 

HUBBELL CHILDREN'S EDUCATION TRUST 

Established by Friends of Webster Hubbell 

The primary 

in meeting 

children. 

purpose of this Trust is to assist Webster Hubbell 

the education expenses and related costs for his 

Contributions may be accepted from individuals, corporations, 

labor unions, partnerships, political committees or other 

entities. Donors who are not individuals (i.e., corporations) 

should consult with their tax advisor regarding the gift tax 

implications, of gifts to this Trust. 

Contributions are not deductible for federal, state or local 

income tax purposes. 

Donors to the trust may make donation free of the federal gift 

tax up to SlO,OOO per trust beneficiary per individual Donor 

or $20,000 per Donor Husband and Wife. Since there are four 

named beneficiaries (the four Hubbell children), the maximum 

tax-free gift to the Trust is S40,OOO per Donor (S80,OOO 

husband and wife) per year. 

Anonymous contributions will not be accepted by the Trustee; 

however, identity of the Donor will remain confidential if 

requested by the-Donor. 

All contributors should provide their names, 

telephone numbers. 

Contribution checks should be made payable to 

sent to: 

Hubbell Children's Education Trust 

c/o Michael C. Schaufele, CPA, Trustee 

P. 0. Box 1126 

Little Rock, tikansas 72203k126 

addresses and 

the Trust and 

Contributions will be acknowledged by the Trust. 

VRJ-004 
1685 

HUBBELL FAMILY SUPPORT TRUST 

Established by Friends of Webster Hubbell 

The primary purpose of this Trust is to assist Webster Hubbell 

in meeting the living and support expenses for his wife, Suzy, 

and hi6 children. Diotributions will be made for basic 

housing and support needs, including education expenses for 

the children. 

contributions may be accepted from individuals, corporations, 

labor unions, partnerships, political committees or other 

entities. Donors who are not individuals (i.e., corporations) 

should consult with their tax advisor regarding the gift tax 

implications of gifts to this Trust. 

0 Contributions are 

individual per year. 

limited to a maximum of $50,000 per 

. Contributions are not deductible for federal, state or local 

income tax purposes. 

0 Donors to the tru6t may make donation free of the federal gift 

tax up to $10,000 per individual Donor or $20,000 per Donor 

Husband and Wife. Since there are five named beneficiaries of 

the Trust (Suzy and the four children), the maximum tax-free' 

gift to the Trust is SSO,OOO per Donor ($100,000 husband and 

wife donors) per year. 

. Anonymous contributions will not be accepted by the Trustee; 

however, the identity of the Donor will remain confidential if 

requested by the Donor. 

0 All contributors should provide their names-, addresses and 

telephone numbers. 

0 Contribution checks should be mad@ payable to the Trust and 

sent to: 

Hubbell Family Support Trust 

cio Michael C. Schaufeie, CPA, Trustee 

P. 0. Box 1126 

Little Rock, Arkansas 7'2203-1126 

. Contributions will be acknowledged by the Trust. 

VBJ-005 
1686 

I-. ’ 
1687 

D 

w-014 
1688 

0 

1690 

Memorandum 

June 17, 1994 

TO: .AM Jordan 

FR: Laura Hartgian 

NarionaI Finance Dirccux 

RI2 Invitadonr to fiane 20th Dhner at the fordmu 

Mr. Dwape Andreas 

&&a Daniel Midland 

-ii, IL 62X%-S-678 

Bob Bark 

Gened Electric 

St/s Berlin 

ago 

Mr. Bob BLir 

Andema, Hi&y and Blair 

r(-- 

Washingron. DC 20013-3239 

Totn Blcmd 
1692 

Mcmorasidum 

FE Jordan Diruw 

June f6, S94 

page rwo 

MC, Dan Durko 

Dutko & hssctciatu 

w 

-- 

Wasbiagtoa, DC 20003 

Mr. Muk E&n 

Ruideot 

Erwin choiuf 

Cbarionc, NC 28202 

hk.EdFbWliW 

Vice Ruidcot 

America3 Airlines 

xhingron, IX 20036 

Mr. Tom Hwg 

Hill & Kmwh~~ 

Washington, DC 

Mr. and Mrs. Robert and Sbctia Johasoo 

Bfask Enrrruirrmcnt Ttiwisioa 

WashingEm, DC 2ocKn 

Ms. Muije Lsftwicb 

ts Finmciai Group, inc. 

Y= 

YU 

Ye 

Y= 
1692 

Memorandum 

RE: Jordan Dinner 

June 16. 1994 

page three 

HMi Mzsri 

Mr. Bernie Master 

Health DOWK, Inc. 

Wonfiington, OH 43085 

Mr. RidEd MarJ 

Man & Cntubcr 

Mr. Gerald McCawm 

Lukas & McGowul 

HPWrshingml. DC 2aM 

Mr. Jim Mchale 

hidea! 

Ga.krv Furniture 

Houston. TX 7707b 

Mr. Jotln Merripan 

Vrma, liipfvr 

Y= 

tcgrctr 

ya 

unconfirmed 
1693 

.Memorandum 

REZ Jordan Dinner 

June 16. 1994 

we fwr 

Mr. Richard Lo&ridge 

West Publishinn 

Minnqoib, MS S5401-2159 

Mr. Scar Pastrick 

Aluand* VA 22314 

Mr. Ron Perelman 

. Revion. Inc. 

New York. NY 10121 

Tom Quinn 

O’Connor & Hannon 

Mr. James Speigha 

Vice Raideat 

C&P Teiepboae 

- 

Wsbirqton. DC 200036 

. 

Mr. Rotxn Strauss 

Akin. Cump 

Wishington. DC 20036151 I 

Mr. George Tagg 

GovunmuxalRdtim 4 

F&A Express 

3 

w+biagton. DC 2OOZ ~- 

Culver Ciry. CA 9U232-2715 

Liuie Rock. AR 7ZG 

unconfirmed 

uncoafirmaJ 
1694 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

16 September 1994 

MEMORANDUM 

TO: 

FROM: 

SUBJECT: 

NOTE: 

Leon Panetta 

Harold Ickem 

Fundraising proposal for geneyic media for 

the November midterm elections 

THIS HEM0 NEEDS A VERY OUICK RESPONSE. 

Leon, 

others, 

after considerable discussion, involving, among 

Tony Coelho, it has been agreed that the Democratic 

National Committee ("DNCR1 should implement a $4 million generic 

media campaign in selected markets beginning immediately after 

Congress adjourns. Towards that end, Mandy Grunwald has been 

authorized to solicit scripts for possible radio and television 

spots from approximately 7 firms, including her own. The 

deadline for submission of scripts is Wednesday 21 September. 

Although we have some money remaining in the DNC's health 

care media accouT‘,t, we need to raise approximately $3 million in 

the next 2 1/Z to 3 weeks, of which $2 mUlion should be "hard" 

dollars. (An individual is permitted to contribute a maximum of 

$25,000 "hard" dollars to political activiries during a calendar 

year. I Terry McAuliffe has agreed to work on this extra effort 

on a crash basis (notwithstanding that he is in the process of 

finishing up a $40 million plus fundraising effort for the DNC in 

19941. Given the political atmosphere, and given the amount 

already raised for the DNC, and extensive fundraising by 

Lndividual candidates, this will take an extraordinary effort to 

accomplrsh, especially in the short time remaining. 

the 

In order to accomplish this goal, the President, and perhaps 

Firs: Lady and the Vice President, will have to be enlisted. 

The proposed plan is to have the President telephone Vernon 

Jordan, Sernard Schwartz of Loral Corp. (New York), and Jay 

Rockefeller this Monday to ask them if they would, in turn, 

solicit approximately 10 substantial donors, all of whom have 

very positive Those 10 

EOP 043275 
Memorandum to Leon Panetta is Se?teder i994 

1695 

people, in turn, would be asked to be primarily responsible for 

raising $2.5 to $3 million dollars in the next three weeks. 

In order to achieve this under the time constraints, the 

President should call Messrs. Schwartz, 

Monday and-ask them if they will 

Jordan and Rockefeller on 

undertake calling these 10-12 

potential fundraisers (whose names and phone nurrbers will be 

provided) and.ask the 10 or 12 to join the President at breakfast 

along with Messrs. Schwartz, Jordan and Rockefeller later this 

week with the President. The President would express his 

appreciation for what they've done in the past and stress the 

urgency of additional assistance in order to pe-rmit the DNC to 

produce and run approximately $4 million in generic -dia. The 

10-12 people would represent various sectors and will be chosen 

from the point of view of having expressed past support for the 

Administration, having had a positive relationship with the 

Administration and having the ability to raise serious amounts of 

money quickly. 

After the breakfast, each of the lo-12 solicitors will be 

* given lists by Messers. Jordan, - et -- al 

p 

them on a daily basis. 

who would follow up with 

I think this plan makes sense, but only 

if it is implemented this week. I am prepared to make the case 

to the President either alone or with you or have you make the 

case to the President however you wish. 

4 i ? 

I would appreciate your response as soon as possible. 

cc: Joan 9aggett 

Tony Coelho 

Doug Sosnick 

John Angel1 

. 

t 

EOP 043276 
1696 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASutNGTON 

September 20 1994 

HEXORANDUH FOR THE PRESIDENT 

FROM: .HARoLD ICKES c3 tb 

SUBJECT: Telephone calls to Vernon Jordan, Senator Jay 

Rockefeller and Bernard Schwartz for fundraising 

purposes 

In order to raise an additional $3,000,000 t0 pennit the 

Democratic National Committee ("DNC") to produce and air generic 

tv/radio spots as soon as Congress adjourns (vhich may be as 

early as 7 October), I request that you telephone Vernon Jordan, 

Senator Rockefeller and Bernard Schvartz either todav or 

romorrov. You should ask them if they vi11 call ten to tvelve 

CEO/busrness people who are very supportive of the Administration 

and who have had very good relationships with the Administration 

to have breakfast with you, a6 well as vith Messrs. Jordan, 

Rockefeller and Schvartz, very late this week or very early next 

Lreek. 

The purpose of the breakfast voufd be for you to express your 

apprecratlon for all they have done to support the 

Admlnlstration, to Anpress them vlth the need to'raise $3,000,000 

wrthln the next two weeks for generic media for the DNC and to 

ask them If they, 1.n turn, vould undertake to raise that amount 

of money. . 

hessrs. Vernon, Schudrt: an3 Rockefeller would be responsible for 

coordAnatrng the efforts and dolnq the appropriate follow up with 

:he Ken to tVelVe people. 

Tne appropriate lists wll: be problded to Messrs. Jordan, 

Sch*.fartz and Rockefeller. In turn,' other lists will be provihed 

:0 the ten to twelve people rf they agreed to undertake this 

effort. They would also be asked to rely on their own sources as 

.de??. 

Tnere has been no prelrltnary discussion with Messrs. Jordan, 

Rockefeller or Schwartz as to whether they would agree to do 

TLhlS, although, I am sure Vernon would do it, and I have it on 

very good authority thaK Hr. Schvartz is prepared to do anything 

he can for the Admlnlstratlon, 
1697 

If you vant me or somebody else to Call any Of these 3 ahead of 

time, I vould be glad to do SO. 

1 have been assured by those that are knovledgeable that the ten 

to twelve people who ve vould ask Messrs. Jordan, Schvartt and 

Rockefeller to call are people vho are.lOyal to the 

Administration and vould be prepared to raise serious amounts of 

money quickly. 

Given the shortness of time and the very intensive fundraising 

activities being conducted across the country, this is probably 

the only vay that ve will be able to raise this amount of money 

vithin the time period. 

Hr. Bernard Schvartr 

Chairman C CEO 

Loral Corporation 

600 Third Avenue 

New York, New York 10016 

- office 

=- home 

Please let me know if you need addltlonaf information or wish to 

discuss this further. 

cc: Leon Panetta 

CGRG-1431 

kQ. z/3/97 
1698 
1699 

---.___----~ --~- 

Vernon Jordan, 313198 

Grand Jury 

Page 1 to Page 196 

-- .__ ..--~ - .~ _” 

CONDENSED TRANSCRIPT AND CONCORDANCE 

PREPARED BY: 

OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 

Suite 490-North 

Washington, DC 20004 

Phone: 202-514-8688 

FAX: 202-5 14-8802 
BSA Vernon Jordan, 313198 XYAX(ll 

1700 

.:: UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 

FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 

I:~GRAND JURY PROCEEDINGS : 

[6: 

r:,- __________--__- x I 

i-9: Grand JIJN Roam No 4 

19: Unlted S ;aJt;td;-~i$~~Co”fi 

)istnct of Columbia 

-.. ._- _ 

for the C 

3rd 8 Constiiution. N.W. 

._. gton, DC. 20001 

y. March 3. 1998 

)nv of VERNON E. JORDAN. JR. was taken in 

Jury 97-2. impaneled 

997, commencing at 950 a.m., before: 

jOLOMON WISENBERG 

THOMAS H RrPNPRT 

wasnin 

Tuesda 

The testimc 

the resence of a full quorum of Grand 

on .l eptemcber 19. 1 

rde ndent Counsel 

?TJ iT _. J. __ BI Bl!%IAN _. f%tUiN .~ 

,--, 

[19i 

I201 

i2ll 

i .- 7 i ,--,-, 

123: 

!24j Suite 490 North 

i25; Washington, D.C. 20004 

- 

Page 2 Page 6 

.1; 

:2 1 Whereupon, 

VERNON E. JORDAN JR. 

i:iwas called as a witness and after having been duly sworn by 

i 5 1 the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and testified 

t6las follows: 

17: EXAMINATION 

!91 BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q Sir my name is Tom Bienert and sitting next to me 

:iiis Bob Bittman. Were ’ both Associate Independent Counsel and 

.I: 1 I think we introduced ourselves just briefly in the hall, 

! 12 J correct? 

iI31 A Correct. 

:i41 Q And, now, YOU and I have never spoken before, 

[El A I do understand that. 

Q 

r jiipartner at Akin Gump here in Washrnqton, correct? 

Okay. Now, sir youre ’ an attorney youre ’ a 

Illi. A Senior partner. - 

II?] Q 

rl3lwhen? 

Senior partner. And youve ’ been at the firm srnce 

ii4j A January 1,1982. 

[lj: Q And what kind of law do you ractice? 

[16j A I am a corporate internationa P lawyer. I advise 

[ 17 1 clients. I have a lot of clients. We have a lot of la 

Y 

ers 

; I s 1 at Akin Gump who know the law but dont ’ have any ody to tell 

1 I 9 1 it to and so one of my jobs is to make sure that they have 

(13 1 clients for 800 lawyers to relate the law to. 

[:I: Q 

!~2]firm. 

So one of your functions is you get clients for the 

i231 A 

0 

We call it rain making. 

Exactly. And youre ’ one of the main rain makers at 

ii:iAkin Gump. correct? 

15 j correct? 

1 6 : A 

17: Q 

That is correct. Not to my knowledge. 

Not to mine. either. Let me qo over a couple of 

Isjadvisals and admonishments that are very ?nportant and; 

1s) obvious1 if you have any questions about any of these 

zo!things, p 7, ease let me know. ^. , __i You have a Fifth Amendment ri ht when 

q - : here today not to Implicate yourself and w 4 at the F iTI 

ou appear 

%jAmendment means IS that 

h 

r 

ou can refuse to answer an 

24 ! if you believe in good faith hat the answer could subje .cl 

question 

2 j j you to crimtnal liability. Do you understand that? 

Page 4 

A I do. 

Q And do you have any questions about it? 

il2i’ A I do understand that. 

[13i Q 

[ I 4 1 correct? 

And youre ’ represented by an attorney today, 

r15: A I am. Mr. William Hundley. 

i161 Q Okay. And is he with the firm of Akin Gump where 

i 17 lyou are a partner? . 

[ls:L A 

[lg!Feld. 

He is my partner at Akin, Gump. Strauss, Hauer 8 

[-ill ‘ 0 And hes ’ outside here today, correct? 

Ill ’ A Hes ’ outside. 

i2ll Q One thin 

[ 2 3 1 both talking over each o 9 

Im ’ going to ask, because I notice were ’

her a little bit, it makes it very 

114 ]difficult for the court reporter, so what Ill ’ do is Ill ’ try 

[ 25 1 not to interrupt you and Id ’ ask if we both try to pause and 

~____ -- 

0lCStat-r 

Page 5 

1: ‘ make sure that were ’ each finished before we answer, okav7 

:,: 

I-. A Fine 

i ? j 

Q Thank you. sir. Now. In addrtron to your nghts. 

ou have an extremely Important oblrgatton and thats ’ to tell 

! s: r he truth. Because youre ’ testifvrnq under oath before a 

rand juiy.everything you say here IS 

; : o 1 Do you-understaiid that? 

i:i: A I do understand that. counsel. 

i?2' Q And do YOU know. sir. that oenurv can also include 

i : 3 j indicating or stating that you dont ’ recall &m&thing or 

[ 14 1 dont ’ know something when In fact you do know and you do 

[: 5 1 recall? Do you understand that? 

1163 A I do understand that. 

[l ’ Q 

118: A 

Do you have any questions about perjury? 

I have no questions. 

1191 0 And iust for the record. do vou also understand 

a crime and someone cha id and convicted of 

up to five years in jail and a s‘ me of up to 

(231 A I understand that, too. 

Q Oka Now, the last thing just as part of an 

ifliadvisal, I just want r o let you know kind of my approach here 

__. - 

Page 7 

ill A Im ’ one of them. 

il ’ Q 

A 

Now, sir, do you bill by the hour7 

1: j fortunately 

I do not bill b 

raduated from t t; 

the hour, not any more. Ive ’

8 

at state. 

So when you bring in a client or when you do legal 

iziwork for the firm, how is rt that you determine or the firm 

I 7 J determines how much to charge? 

A It depends. We bill our clients based on the 

I “, j services rendered and from time to time we will look at a 

t 10 1 situation and say this, in a reement with the client. is 

t 11 Ivalued at so much and tha & s 

tl:lthe hour. 

how its ’ done. I do not bill by 

Q 

i :: 1 hourly billing? 

When you last did bill by the hour, what was your 

:151 A 

(161 Q 

I think it was 450. something like that. 

$450 an hour7 

A I think so. Yes. Im ’ not sure about that. That 

I :i i would have to be checked. I do not know exactly what my last 

t 191 billing rate was, but that can be checked out. 

(201 0 

rz!lhour. 

Suffice it say it was several hundred dollars an 

[22] A Yes. It was worth what I am as a lawyer. 

[13j Q Now, are you representing,anJone or any entity in 

124 lrelation to;he ro;ica Lewinsky mvestrgation 

r.251 

-. -- 

Page 9 to Page 7 
1701 

ESA Vernon Jordan, 313198 

_____ ~. .~~_~ _~ - 

XMAX(2) 

::, 

Page 8 

0 And have you ever? 

; -, ,i. A No. 

Q 

i:i relatton to the Paula Jones lawsuit. 

Are you representin? anyone or any enbty in 

.:, 

.d. A No. 

i6: Q 

!7‘ A 

p you ever? 

rei Q Have you been aid any monev or compensation by 

r 91 anyone that relates to work pe r! ormed on the Paula Jones 

j3 I matter or the Monica Lewinsky mattet? 

i’f’ .A-, A No. 

:::: 0 And have you asked to be paid or do you expect to 

~13!be paid forAanyl~orkn~t~ those matters? 

:14: 

[I51 Q Now, since Bill Clinton has beczme President, have 

: 16 1 you ever represented him as an attome ? 

::7: A d WIlllam Jefferson Clinton 

i 18 i as an attorney. 

I have never represente 

Q And smce he’s become President. have you ever 

i$irepresented anyone who works in the White House or did work 

;~:lat the Whitt House at the time? 

il21 I have not. 

i23: Q Were you ever part of the staff at the White House? 

I have never worked as an empeee for the White 

~~:jHouse. I t&e only worked for the government one time, 1965. 

Page 9 

[I! I was regional attorney consultant for the office of Economic 

[: IOpportun. 

% 

for about eight months, I believe. 

And other than, I’m assuming. then, that you’ve 

i: i never rerpivpd - . _ _ _ anv’hme _ . . , af comnensation at anv time other 

t time for w%-&&&&for the Whitekouse or anv 

But exceot for the time 

), that was the Federal 

Government and I did that. and didn’t like it and went home 

i ;; i and worked in m mother’s catering business. 

!:5; Q Hy ow would you describe the nature of your 

::s!relationshl wrth President Clinton over the last year? 

51 First of all let me sa 

ii a 1 United States William Clinton has 

that the President of the 

i; 9 j Ion 

&!e n my fnend for a very 

isr 1 an 8 

time. W& became friendi in 1973 when I was president 

chref executive officer of the National Urban League and 

:I 1: I was In Little Rock making a s eech about race relations. 

12: lequal opportunity, fairness an 8. j,usbce, and the young 

:~3;lawyer. professor at the Univers 9 of,Arkansas law school, 

; 24 ; showed up and we’ve been fnen s since. 

i?<’ 

.--, In the last year, I think it’s no differer,t from 

__ -- 

Page 10 

: : 1 any year since he has been President. We are personal 

;: lfriends. We are fellow lawyers. We are fellow southerners. 

: 31 We care about race. We care deeply about the south where we 

[ 4 ! are both from. And I think we have a historic mutuality of 

15 1 interest in 

f 

ublic policy issues, politics. We pby elf 

he President every year since he has &en 

I,” i President has come to our home for Christmas Eve dinner. The 

[ 8 $irst dinner given for him after he was elected President but 

19 1 before he took office, we hosted that. So we are fnends. 

And you’re often reported, at kast In the press, 

a friend and advisor to President Clinton. Do you 

an accurate characterization? 

I think that is accurate. I chaired or co-chaired 

i::;with former Secretary of State Warren Christceher the 

[ 1 s 1 Clinton-Gore transition in 1992. 

116 1 commrttee with Secreta 

Before that, I was on the. 

( : 7 ! advise the President as r 

Christopher and Governor Kunin to 

o the selection of a nae 

[ 18 1 presidential candidate and I was on the pre-eledion planning 

[ :SJ 1committee for the transition. And so I’ve been around a long 

Page 8 to Page-i3 OlCStan 

Page 11 

. . A That depends. I have an extensive travel schedule 

:I la full law practice. The President has an extensive travel 

‘k ischedule and he IS the leader of the free world. So the 

ii !i%ti&~ that we talk everyday IS not true. 

We talk when It IS mutually convenient. when he IS 

::iin town I am in town. I have talked to him when I’ve been 

:Ijawa 

r 

i was in the hosprtal three years ago and he was In 

i 9 !Thal and and he called the hospital to see how I was feeling 

:g!So there is no attem. It is not unlike your relationship 

::?lwith your own &st friend. 

:;;; Q Would it be fair to say that at least a norm would 

;:z ibe you would talk 

ii :i week or en we did not talk at all 

ils]sirnp# because he was one place, I was another. He’was doing 

::6]one t ing and I was doing another. And then there are times 

[ :T Iwhen it’s uneven. There IS no pattern. It’s up and down, 

:!sloff and on. 

[?91 0 Is it accurate that you guys talk when you are able 

: zo 1 to when your schedules permit? 

iZI1 A Absolutely. 

[?:I Cl And when you do talk, first of all, I assume 

1~3,sometimes you talk on the phone and other times you meet in 

i24 jperson. cot-&t? 

1251 A That’s correct 

Page 12 

Page 13 

: 11 primarily you’ll call the White House switchboard. Is there 

;: 1 any other number within the White House or the West Wing 

f31or 1 

1 I o ] Hemreich. 

“‘1 Q And that was m 

i I; 1 Ms. Hemreich to talk 

follow-up question. Do you call 

A 

specifical Y yto her? 

[I31 I have on occasion done that. Sure. 

[I41 Q 

A 

Is that a less frequent event? 

!?51 Less frequent event. 

'161 Q Less freauent. ;;,j 

ii81 

A Yes. 

Q Any other numbers within the White House that 

;i3lwould call when you specifically want to get President 

[231Clinton? 

I_, ,-.I A That is the only number. 

;:I: 0 Those two. 

:131 A That’s right. 

0 Now, when President Clinton wants to call you, 

iz: 1 there any particular numbers that he calls you on? 

YOU 

are 
1702 

Vernon Jordan, 3l3l98 

Page 14 

j!-r,mber is 

number IS-~. My office 

.7 

.- typically call one of those two 

: 4 r.;mbers? Or one of those three? 

The private line in my office, which 

don’t know it exactly because I 

Page 15 

1: -never dial it, almost invariably when that line rings, it is 

[r:Mrs. Jordan. 

._. 1:. Q 

1;: 

A 

It’s drop everything and grab that line. 

Q 

I always pick that u$. ~ 

Now, when you an Prestdent Clinton meet in person, 

[E: let’s focus for a second on when you o to the White House. 

: - -Obviously, you go there on occasion o meet with him, 

~~~wrrecC 

l> A I do 

(: i \ unpression that I’m 9 

o on occasions to see him. There is some 

here every day. That is not the case. 

11.: * Q How often - and, again let’s just use an 

[::.arbitraty time of since the beginning of ‘97. so we’re 

: I?-talking about the last year, rou 

gWhite House. 

h ballpark estimate of how 

[ 1: : many times you’ve been to the 

[15: A I honest1 

T 

cannot say. I think I went to the White 

1 :;:House more during the irst term than in the second term, 

r:-‘especially early on as we were finrshrng up the transrbon. 

1: 5 -But as things took place and as things got settled, I didn’t 

I‘ ,_. Z-ao =~ as ~~ much and I iust think you have to check the White House 

; : :. records. 

[Z:. Q I’m going to get to those in a second. I’m sorry? 

,-- A All I m saying rs - I mean, I cannot tell you that 

: Fs I go to the White House once a week. I’m certain that that 

1:: is not the case. Do I o once a month? I mean, I cannot 

: 2 5 : really say precisely d -9 go once a month. I know I don’t go 

~~____~_ --- 

Page 16 Page 19 

i 1. ante a week, I doubt that I go once a month. But the records 

:r.w~ll show exact1 what that IS. 

,” Q lo in terms of just tryin to get a ballpark 

ii-generality, there are X)-some odd wee a s in a year, so you 

:::wouldn’t expect to have been there 50 brnes. 

,;- :_ A Of course not. 

.-. 

:_. 

Q Maybe in the neighborhood of 12? 

ic A Possibly. 

Q Now let’s talk a little bit about the records. 

r:?:When you physically y to the White House, how is it that you 

[ 1: -actually garn entrance. 

[l:: A If I’m goin 

;l:.be jet in. I give them my % 

to the White House, I call and, ask to 

ocral Security number and I rve 

i 7 4 -them my ta 

r;=-not have a White House pass. And I car to “a{, “I’m c!r%g 

number and I give them m date of birth. 

; ;E:to see the President.” Or if there’s a meeting hat I’m 

I:-‘mvited to, they will say,,“JVhen are you coming? What car 

[:~.are you dnvin 

P 

? What rs the ta number?” And I go throu 

: 1 E’ almost every rme date of birth, ?&ial Security number an! 

h 

i-:-my tag. 

i?l: Q And who is it that you call at the White House to 

r:::anange that? 

y23: A Well, it depends. Keep in mind eve time I go to 

[2:-me White House, I’m not 

.a 

oing to see the Presrden rty There 

[zs‘are other people there wrt whom I have relationships. I 

.:.might be gomg to see Sand Ber 

r t9 

er. 

~‘Erskrne BOWLS. the Chref o Sta 

I might be ooin to see 

It depends So w 4 Omever 

\:xl’rn going to ~1st. d IS with the secretary of that 

; !partrcular person in the White House that I gain entrance 

Q And so it would be that person that you call and 

ii igive the infonnatron - 

A Or rf the 

ii j Bowles at 2:OOo” And iy 

‘re calling me. “Can you see Ersktne 

say yes And they say ‘Remrnd us 

:g!what your date of birth. Social Secunty number.’ and I go to 

-:2lthe southwest ate and I’m let in. 

“:: Q sow. so you normally then - I’m assuming you drive 

; ..~. h ; to the Whrte House? ..j> 

.- 1 A I dnve or am dnven. 

Q If you are driven. are you dropper off actually 

ii:ioutside the gates and then you walk - 

A No. if I’m driven I’m taken into the gate, the 

I!tidriver waits for me and then takes me out. If I dnve 

i IB i myself, I park. I go in, I do whatever business I have to do 

::9iand I leave. 

Page 18 

1 I1 President, I drive in the ate next to the southwest gate 

iZ!and go around to the dtp .9 omatrc entran.ce and that, is 

: 3 1 where I leave my car and then I ride wrth the President to 

!r]the golf course. 

Q On those occasions when you go to the diplomatic 

~~ientrance is ti a matter of literally dnving up there 

[ 71 and then’warting b some door when he comes or do you 

[B]a&aljy go in the &rite House and then come out tog$he.r? 

A Well, generally, it’s more than just the resident 

riz!and I playing gotf. It’s general1 two other people and we 

I: 1 j ather down In the diplomatic oyer and we wait lf the 

B. 

Y 

; 111 resident IS runnmg late, as he usually is, I might go to 

;:31visit somebody or I might stt around and have a Coca-Cola. 

:i4 1 It just depends. There s no pattern. 

5’ Q But in any event, is it your understandin or at 

: : 6; least to your knowledge when you do go to the Wlxte l-? ouse 

: 171 there is some sort of arrangement with someone at the White 

:: 31 House for X ou to go there? 

;19: I do not havefree access to the White House 

"0: 0 

:_I Idrop by and walk In. “HI, I m Vernon Jo 

That’s the pornt I m gett? at, You cant lust 

::li”Go on in, he’s in the back.” 

an, and they say, 

:231 A I do not think that anybod can do that. 

:241 Q Okay. So I’m assuming t z e answer to that is you 

; : 5 1 don’t. 

Page 14 to Page 19 
1703 

Vernon Jordan, 313198 XUAX,.) ___~._ _.. 

Page 20 

i: ISO that’s been concentrated. 

,_. I’ve seen him at Jackson Hole. I have seen him in 

;;; New York. I went to the debate pre 

[ 4 ~Mexico. I saw him there. I went w Ip ‘b 

in Albu uerque. New 

h him to resident 

i 5 1 Nixon’s funeral. I came home with him once on Air Force One 

[E!from New York. I accompanied him to Barbara Jordan’s funeral 

f 7 1 in Texas on Air Force One. 

I flew back with him from Martha’s Vine ard this 

!tjAugust Mrs. Jordan and I. So there are times ou side of 

iii 1 Washin’gton that we have been together. 

r. 

Q Is it a fair characterization to sa 

I ii! meet with him outside of the White House or 

that when 

Yy ? 

ou 

ashlngton. I s 

L 13 1 usually as a result of some prearranged function or a 

(14 1 prearranged vacation? 

[15i A I think prearrangement is a good word. 

I161 Q And focusin back, then, on the kind of day-to-day 

;l?!routine in Washin ton, are 

[ 111 t ether with the resident in Washington outside of t 

~~:~!$.e, thinf like ,%,a,; 

w ere any times when you et 

4 e 

Ite House like at a restaurant or does he just drop by your 

Yes. We go out to dinner together, the four of us. 

I_li\?le’re friends and we socialize and we enjo each other and we 

; 2 3 1 kke to eat, so we go out. We do what you ;I o with your 

[z4lfriends. 

[151 Cl And please keep in mind I’m certainly not saying 

Page 21 Page 24 

!lj A ‘Who should be the ambassador to X count X;ew”O 1~ Ishould be the president of this aovemment agency, who IS 

:31best person to do thus and so?, ‘We are thinkm 

w 

about a 

f 4 1 speech on ram,, what do you think about that?” could be 

! 51 anv number of Issues confronting this country and this .~. 

; 61 gotemment, this nation. - 

Q 

iii side of vour discussions with Mr. Bowles. is it fair to sav 

So at least on what I’ll call loosely the business 

And would you say that in the last year, set aside 

i it j the trips outside of Washington, but in Washington itself, 

112 I have you 

; 13 J number o B 

otten together with the .President about the same 

times as you’ve seen him I? the White House outside 

[ i4 1 of the White House, more or less outslde the White House? 

;15: A I don’t actually know what the proporbon IS. I do 

[ 161 know we would like for it to be more, but we’re both busy. 

! 17 1 We both have thin to do. But like all friends, we find an 

! 13 :opportuni up with each other and we dp that. 

[IS: And so as you sd here now, in tying to answer. 

~2::there’s nothing that jumps out at 

4 

ou, that theres an set 

17. I roportion between in the Whtie 

:Z !Rouse. 

ouse or out of the White 

i ij that theyre going to be somewhat topic related dependng on 

: : 3 Iwhat issues and topics are going on at the time? 

A That’s ri ht. 

Q Now. ot 8 er than Mr. Bow&. and the President, of 

‘“2‘ .-- A What does not jump out at me is a defined pattern. 

;2:‘ Q And by that, I assume you mean what does not jump 

;:5:OUt at YOU - 

j :_? jcourse, who else at the White House do you over the past year 

: i 4 1 or so tend tp keep in touch, speak to, whether it’s business 

;:5!0r personal? 

‘16’ A Chetyl Mills, who is Deputy White House Counsel. 

1: - jShe’s a marvelous, irery able, very articulate youn 

: : s Iwhom I like and we are friends. And I have a grea 9. 

lawyer 

interest 

; : 91 In her future and in what she does and the way she does it 

I 2 3 1 She has a great interest in young people and we talk about 

[?:lthat. 

.--j In the former White House, before the 

is; 1 administration changed, I spent a lot of time talking to 

[~4 IAlexIs Herman. I do spend a good bit of time talking to Bob 

: I 5 1 Nash, who is Director of Personnel. 

_ __ 

Page 22 

i:j A You know, we all go to church at 11:OO every Sunday 

iz: mornln I don’t see the President every Sunday morning at 

;j!ll:oo. %o$u understand what I’m saying? 

Absolutely. But on the other hand, and you’re 

I: i relating it to the rest of us and with friends, if someone 

i 6lwere to ask me how often do you get together with your friend 

17 I Joe, I think I could qive a ballpark estimate, once a month, 

isjon& a week. - 

!9: A 

[io]StateS. 

Except that Joe is not the President of the United 

r:r: Q Exact1 

; 1: iagree that it is more t 

Which is why I’m t 

~ffcult just to get toge r her wdh the 

ing to ask do you 

i 13 1 President than 

A rthink it de 

our anonymous friend Joe? 

1: lithe demands on my time, 

ends u on the demands on his time, 

P he avai .P,. ablkty of our spouses, 

[~s!where our children are. We know that we’re going to get 

1:: Itogether on Christmas Eve. That’s generally prearranged. 

[ i 8; That’s a done deal. 

i:4 j intuitive based on what each of us has to do. 

[251 Q Now, you mentioned others at the White House that 

Page 20 to Page 25 

Page 23 

: 1 ou would see. A ain. using roughly the last year as a 

-. r Imeframe, other t 1 an the President. whtch persons who work 

: q 1 In the White House or live In the White House do you to any 

ii ,de ree of regularity speak with? And by that I’m not 

: 5; re P emng to secretaries that 

:s>through to somebody or ma l 

ou’re just calling to get 

e an appointment. but persons who 

; 1 ;work tn the White House or the First Lady 

A Yes. It’s safe to sa that m most fre uent 

;zicontact has historically been with t i e Chic 7 of Staff, 9ac 

c: s!McLarty when he was there. He was succeeded b 

::: ]It was not so much so with Leon Panetta. Erskine b 

Leon Panetta. 

owles IS a 

; :: 1 ve 

; 13~ En u 

good friend of mine and I was In frequent touch with 

rne Bowles. stopped In to say hello 

;: 4 1 to see Sandy Berger depending. 

Or I would stop in 

i-51 0 Okay. Let’s focus on Ersklne Bowles for a second. 

: 161 Since he’s a friend, would it be accurate. then, that when 

i 17 1 ou speak with Mr. Bowles 

i-9 1 K usiness-related issues an J 

ou may be speaking about 

: : 4 I more personal issues? 

you also may be speaking about 

r2oi A If you mean business related issues as it relates 

! ~11 to some government issue or public polcy Issue. yes. 

r ‘7 I Business related issues as relates to what I do everv dav. 

i I; j theanswer is no. 

. . . 

1241 Q Well, what would be the kind of general nature of 

: 25 1 reasons why you would speak with Mr. Bowles. 

Page 25 

1:: Q 

: 2 1 us keepin 

And let me stop you just so it makes it easier for 

% 

track because I’m real1 

y current. I mean, say, ): 

just interested in the 

i3lcurrent - 

! 4 1 to make it easier - 

om 1997 on - and maybe 

A Well what I’m trying to point out to you is my 

i zlconversations and t!r~y visits were more frequent in the first 

17 1 term than in the second term and the second term is obviously 

(9 Ifairly new. And that is not unrelated to than es in 

f 9lpersonnel and people. That’s the only point P m trying to 

r:olmake. 

I;11 Q Now, in terms of Ms. Mills, because I want to do is 

;:zlwith the 

! 13 Iwith Mr. g 

ople you talk to just have you do like 

v 

ou did 

owles. is give us a general sampling o the types 

: 14 lof things you all discuss. You indicated you’re friends and 

[: 5 1 ou also indicated 

r 16 1 r., hings like that. W K 

ou discussed interests in the youth and 

at other type of topics would you be 

[:7 discussing with Ms. Mills? 

A 

I:“3 1 happening? How are thin 

‘What’s goinq,on over there today? What’s 

s ” 

Q 

!:E iWhite House or piesldencv at the time. 

So again, &. ind of issues that are topical in the 

i22j A Correct. . 

Q Do you speak with her - does she call you 

~~:~specifically about le 

!251 3 

al issues, for advice? 

A She oes not. 

otcstarr 
1704 

Vernon Jordan, 313198 XYAXIS) 

Page 26 

!e: A He IS Director of Personnel, Assistant to the 

14j President for Personnel. 

;10: Cl Oka 

:: I! of issues you woul dy 

And what would be, again, the general types 

drscuss with him? 

.l_). “Bob I have ten letters here of people who want to 

i I; i work in thg administration. 

; 14 iOr “l’m bnngin 

I’m sending them to ou today.” 

i 1s 1 that 90 percen ? 

them to you. Please res and.” 

respon 

$ rbelieve 

: 16jpeople wrrte 

of government is 

the 

rng and so I,thrnk if 

; :T 1 office that does r 

‘re entitled to a response. And that rs the 

hat and so that is the basis of our 

: 13 1 conversation for the most part. 

0 Any others that have been in the White House since 

!iijearly ‘97 that you with some roubne keep in touch with? 

I;,, A Mike M&III?V 

,A-, 

.Q 

._._ -_.. 

‘fiat would be the types of things that you would 

i;:idiscuss with Mr. McCurrv? 

1241 A His business is the press. “HOW are things?” 

I251 Q Topical matters related to press issues? 

Page 29 

.1. Q Okay. So what we’re gorng to do, then, IS sort of 

is i basically try to keep the timeframe. then, of up until 

: 31 December 19th and 1’11 just indicate to you that I believe it 

.I !was December 19th. but if you have a drfferent memory. of 

i5,course. thit controls. _1 :c, I thrnk that’s correct. 

._. Q All nght. Now, first of all. focusin on the call 

; Q jfrom Ms. Cut-he. wh 

r 61 that? YouTrdyou Llieve that was in eany De!smberT 

don’t you go ahead and tel us about 

‘?Ci 

:111 Q Aensd where were you. what did she call and say? 

..)i A I was in my office Betty Curne called and 

i I;lshe said, “Mr. Jordan, there’s a former White House intern, 

Page 27 

-- ~~__ __ 

Page 28 

,1. Q So first of all, when is the first time that you 

11 i recall heanng anything about Monica Lewinsky. hearing from 

: 3 1 her, meetin 

[ .I 1 later leame % 

her or meeting or hearing about someone that you 

was her? 

:5i A Yes. The first time I ever heard the name Monica 

! 6 i Lewinskv is when Ms. Bettv Currie called me about Monrca 

!7 1 Lewinsk). 

!a; Q 

rs!was? 

And can you give us a rough timeframe of when that 

[lOI A It was ea December, I believe. 

ilIT Q All right. X e’ll come back to that in a second. 

I::; 

A Surer 

Q First of al!. at the time when you first would have 

[ 14 : heard about Monica Lewnsky. did you have any reason to 

[ ?;I believe that she might be a witness or 

i 16 1 implicated Y rn the Paula Jones litigation. 

ossrbly called or 

(I_:] A I did not. 

0 When would be the time when you first learned that 

I : i; Monica Lewinsky was somehow being subpoenaed or might be a 

~2olwitness in the Paula Jones issue? 

A I think it was the 19th of December when she caked 

i:iirne and told me that she had been served with a subpoena. 

r23i Q And b 

(24j A When Kn 

“she” you mean when Ms. Lewinsky called you 

onrca Lewinsky called me to tell me that she 

f 2 5 1 had been served with a subpoena. 

Page 30 

i 1 Ianyone other than herself or Monica Lewinsky? 

I21 A She did not. 

Q Did you question her at all about whether anyone 

i : ; else had asked her to do that? 

L51 A I did not. 

[6! 0 And did you have any reason to believe from any 

; 7 1 independent sources at that time that there was someone other 

i 8 1 than Betty Currie who was asking you to do this? 

!91 A I did not. 

:101 0 

: : 11 conversation? 

So are there any other details of that 

“‘i 

ti;lLewinsk 

A Betty Currie called said, “Would you hel 

k 

Monica 

: 14 1 in mind K, 

?” And I said, “I will help Monica Lewinsky.” 

at I’ve known Betty Currie since the transition., 

eep 

:: s 1 since before I was actually made chairman of the transrtron. 

: 16lShe worked in the transition office, she was secretary to 

:17]fonner Secretary Christopher. Eve 

: :e frock. I saw her. She was cordial, s x

time I went to Little 

e was friendly,, she was 

!~gjcompetent. and I had to do business with her. Dunn the 

: 20 1 course of my business, as a main la 

Rty 

er in the transr 9. Ion, 

: 2 11 she was responsible for having a le or me to read when I 

122 Igot there, findin a 

: 2 3 1 art of my Little 9( 

place for me to sit, and so she was a 

E 

ock life during the transition and I knew 

.24 1 er and respected her. So it was a call from Betty Currie, 

izslresponded. 

Page 31 

Q And by the way just so I’m dear when you make 

ii 1 references to the transition team you were on anb who 

; 3 jworked with, what was the timeframe that you were on r 

ou 

hat 

[ 4 1 transition team? 

A The Clinton transrtion was 1992 leading up to his 

Iziinauguration January 20. 1993. So that is the transition 

17 1 time that we’re talking about. From the election on. 

Q Okay. Now the call from Ms. Currie, again 

Ii; think you indicated 

I 

: 1 o 1 as far as you knew r 

ou were at your office, so I’m assuming 

he only participants in that discussion 

; 1 i1 were you and Ms. Curie. 

ii21 A That is correct. 

!I31 

:14; 

0 Did vou take anv notes or - 

A No. * 

Q And, again I just want to make sure I get the 

i : 2 1 question out so it’s clear. trn assumin 

‘17 lvou did not take anv notes or wnte an 

from what you said 

‘isjbf this call. e 

4- , hrno _ down as a result 

i191 A I did not take any notes. I asked her to have Ms. 

:20 I Lewinsky to give me a call. 

;21: Q Did you know any details about Ms. Lewinsky based 

:22]on that call? Where she had worked before - 

:23!. A I was told by Ms. Currie that she was a White House 

~24 !intem, she was no Ion er in the White House and that she was 

; 2 5 1 at the Department of r.?e fense in the public relations 

____ ~_.__ __~ 

Page 26 to Page 31 
1705 

BSA Vernon Jordan, 313198 XMU.br 

_ 

Page 32 Page 35 

; :~oec.anment and that she wanted to move to New York and to 

; I TWDI In the rivate sector 

3 TRE FOREPERSON: 

1; i for Te grand ‘u 

Excuse me. Mr. Bienert It’s time 

to take a break. 

Ii 

.., Md. ZENERT. Absolutely. How long of a break 

[ 6: w0L.d you like? 

I-: THE FOREPERSON: Ten mrnutes. 

[6: MR. BIENERT: Okay. 

[si: THE FOREPERSON: You may be excused for ten 

[lo:m:nL$es. We’re oin to take a break. 

:. >. L--, THE V+lTt&SS Thank you very much. 

(12’ 

[:3j g MR. BIENERT: 

rtness exwsed. Wfiness recalled.) 

[14: Q Sir, gettrng back to the call from Betty Currie 

[ 1s; tha: you believe was in ea 

rlslrnaltes you place it in earty %e 

l%c;?cr, first of all, what 

!?7; A That’s my recollection, that’s what our records 

I IR rshow. If it was earlier. I have no recollection. Our 

i;iirecords show that there was a telephone call from her then. 

[ZOi Q You indicated. to us a while back earlier today that 

;ZI 1 you had gy o+e~me tnps In December7 

[ZZj 

[131 Q 

A 

Where did you go in December on those trips? 

[24: In December, I was in - 

1151 Q And let rne stop you. By that, I mean big trips. 

Q 

;r j tellrng you? 

Any further details that you can recall Ms. CL-e 

i: i what I can?0 be helpful.” 

No. I said, “Have her call me up and I will dc 

!5’ 0 So then that was the way you left it. whrch was rou 

i 6 jwere expecting or at least you had indicated she should have 

,71Ms. Lewrnsky call you. 

19: A That’s correct 

Q 

i iii MS. Lewinsky’ 

What’s the next thing you recall concemrng 

111; A She called. 

:I?: Q 

:13]called? 

Any rough timeframe of how long after Ms. C;w 

!14j A There’s somethin that tells me that Betty Cure’s 

[ls!call was on a Fnday and I heard 3 

[I 6 1 week, like Monday or so. 

rom Ms. Lewinsky the nex; 

Q And a 

iiiicalendar. Fridav was t 

ain 

4 

if we’re using at least the Decernos: 

e 5th and Mondav was the 8th. 

i19j A Yes. 

[IO1 0 Where were you when Ms. Lewinsky called yoi? 

I211 A At Akin, Gump, Strauss, Hauer 8 Feld. 

Is: i 

Q And did you immediately recognize the name cr did 

ou have to clue yourself in on who k was based on what she 

1241 r old YOU? 

I251 A Well, Betty said that Ms. Lewinsky would call and I 

Page 33 

; I! You said, I think, you went to Korea? 

1:: A I went to China, to Beijing, and I went to Korea. 

13: Q Was the call from Ms. Currie before or after the 

!4]trip? 

151 A I don’t know. 

[61 0 You don’t recall at all? 

!7; A 

!f‘ Q 

I don’t remember. I think it was after the trip. 

And do YOU recall offhand when YOU were on these 

f9;tnpsT 

A I remember that I was in Korea on the 4th of 

i:Ei December. I don’t know whv I remember that. but I was. I 

i 17 j left here - I left here - I can-tell you exactly. i left 

I remember that because my 

And let me just stop you so I understand. When you 

iizisay you remember you were in Korea on the 4th. I’m assumrng 

[ 2 i ; by tnat you mean to come home? That would have been when you 

122 Iwere coming back to the States? 

iizjno! sure 

A I arrived in Chrcago on Wednesday or Tuesday, I’m 

I would need my calendar to confirm it. 

:25: Q And just for reference sake, December 2nd was a 

Page 34 

; I :Tuesday. December 3rd was a Wednesda 

I?: A Yes. And I. think I left Seou Y , Korea on Wednesday 

;; iKing and arrrved In Chrcago on Wednesday, as a matter of 

, 

!5: 0 

[633rd 

So back to the States on approximately December 

A Right. December 3rd December 4th and I was back 

ia 1 in my office on Thursdav and I think it was after that’that I 

isi heard from Ms. Currie. _ 

[IO; Q And relatively soon after that? 

lil‘ .~~. A I don’t know. 

Q So then that’s one of the reasons why 

ii:iyou would have heard from her after, say, December r 

ou believe 

th. which 

[14:was a Thursda 

[?51 A +es. 

[16: 0 Okay. Now, let’s go back again. And, again, as I 

(:7jindtcated in the begtnnrng. we want to try to get as many 

[ 18 ispecifics as we can on the conversations, so as best you can 

1 lg! recall the conversation with Ms. Currie. she indicated about 

rzo!Ms Lewinsky, she indicated that she had been an intern and 

[?I! was currently working elsewhere? 

[Z?: A 

Q 

At the Department of Defense. 

And obviously she indicated that she wanted help in 

/i:ithe orivate sector in New York. 

125: A In the private sector in New York. 

Page 36 

[ 11 knew that this was Ms. Lewinsky who was calling pursuant tc 

[ 2 1 Betty Currie’s call. 

131 Q 

I41 A 

Okay. So tell us about that conversation. 

She said, “Betty Currie called you?” I said, 

[ 5 I “Yes.” And I said, “I would like to see YOU and would YOU 

[ 6 1 come and would ou bring with you your resume?” ’ 

I71 Q Olay. 

ISI A 

i 9 j courier. 

And she sent me a resume on December 8th bv I 

(101 0 And is it your recollection at that time or at 

[ 111 least as you sit here now that the resume that she would have 

[ 12 ] sent you on the 8th would have been the result of the call 

I: 3 1 you had with her shortly prior to that? 

1141 A Right. You sort of like to know who you’re goq 

I 15 Ito see before YOU see them. and so I said. “Please send me 

i 16 j your resume.< 

Q When you s 

P 

oke with Ms. Lewinsky at that tin-e, on 

1 :i j the phone before she sent he resume. any further details 

[ 19 Idiscussed in terms of her background or what she wanted or 

tzolanything along those lines? 

[Zl! A No. I needed her resume and that’s what I asked 

r-?lfnr 

L--,.-s. 

Q Okay. So when you got the resume on the 8z.. what 

iz:idid you do then? 

1251 A She came to see me on the 11 th. 

Page 37 

ill1 A I did not. 

(121 Q Did y,ou ever have an understanding as to whedter 

[ 13 1 she even knew him. 

A It was not an issue for me at that time. Betty 

i :l i Currie called to say “Would you help Ms. Lewinsk ?” I asked 

(16 1 her to ask Ms. Lewinsky to send me her resume, 

r17lsent me her resume. and that’s all I know. 

Kns. Lewrnssy 

Q So the answer is no you had no reason to b&eve 

i:tlthat she even knew President Clinton. 

[201 A The answer is no. That’s right. 

I211 0 Now. when 

[~]8th, jn between the 8th an dy 

ou got the resume somewhere around the 

the 11th. did you do anything in 

rz3lrelation to d? Did you read the resume? Did you look into 

~24 1 her background or do anything? 

(251 A I did read the resume and after I met with her. I 

Page 32 to Page 37 
1706 

ISA 

I.. Vernon Jordan, 313198 XMAXII) 

Page 38 Page 41 

: 1 rriade a call for her. I believe on that same da .^. Q Prior to meeting wrth her but a !I er readtng her 

: 5 i resume, did you feel that there were any types of jobs that 

: jcame to mind for you that wouM be appropnate for her? 

A Well she had exoressed an interest In public 

’ 2; relations she was ii the PR department of the Defense 

:- j Department. she said something about having had this 

.5 1 ex enence both as an intern and In the Defense Department in 

.g]pu g. IIC relations and New York was a bi 

-1 Iland that’s what she thouqht her tnteres ? 

public relations town 

was and that was the 

I: i interest I pursued on her-behalf 

.‘.,, Q Now, let me ask you, when did she express the 

: -; i interest in oublic relations to vou? .--. 

A In the telephohe conversation when I first asked 

ii: 1 her what her interests were and when she came to see me. 

Q Okay. So let’s go back, then, to the telephone 

i i76iconversation. So there was at least some preliminary 

1: 3 1 discussion with her about what types of jobs she was looking 

::9!for. 

. 

.-. A No, I did not. 

a. Q So she comes in on the 1 lth. Do you remember 

:<jroughly when dunng the day she would have come? 

‘4’ A I think it was around lunchtime. 

.;. 

.-> Q Okay. So where did you meet with her? 

‘<. 

.-, A My off&. 

,-. 

:9; 

Q Your physical of&e in Akin Gump? 

A Yes. 

;5: Q 

A 

Anyone else present dunng the meeting? 

-131 Just Ms. Lewlnskx and myelf. 

So tell us about t at mee Ing. To the best you can 

A What are you interested in, do you want to be 

ii: i scientist? You sort have to know that, so send me your 

:?z]resume. 

:231 Q So ou asked her what she was interested in, she 

: z 4 1 told you public rela r. ions? 

1251 A And the private sector. 

Page 39 

out 

::c; 

::11 

.-_I7 

--1 

.:;I 

::41 

‘151 

Q Oka 

arrangement made Y 

So you get the resume, how was the 

or her to come meet with you on December 

1 lth? Do ou know? 

I: With me. She called, I looked at my calendar, 

obviously, and I said, “I can see you on December 1 lth.” and 

she came to m office on Deasmber 1 lth. 

Q 

December 

bid you make arrangements to meet with her on 

11 th dunng that first call from her on rough1 

December 8th or was there a second call when she ca Y led to 

i ; 6 j set up the meeting? ..* A It’s my judgment that when she talked to me on the 

: I ? i 8th that I said I can see ou on the 10th. 

.- 9’ 1 Q On the 1 & h? .-2, .- 3 A The llth, I mean On the 1 lth. 

Q And let me ust make sure I understand why you used 

1 ii j the term “mL judgment.” 

:I zlcalendar or 

did you mean just based on your 

ased on talktng to her you elt like It was 

.:P jappropriate to meet with her? 

::s; A First of all, I have a calendar. I’m busy. So I 

Page 42 

! I 1 youthful enthusiasm and youthful naivete about how processes 

i z ~work. And so I had to spend some time tellin 

i 3 Itakes time and that I could not assure her tha 9 

her that this 

she would 

1 I1 have a 

~s~would d 

‘ob by next week or the first of the year, but that I 

o what I could in her behalf. 

Q Did you give her an estimate of how long you 

i?6;thought it would take? 

ia; A No, because I could not do that. 

19; Q 

(lsltake time? 

How did she react to your telling her that it might 

A Well, I think she was somewhat surprised. that she 

I ii j was coming as a result of Betty Currie calling Vernon Jordan 

;:3land I think she thought erroneously that I could move 

i 14 !mountarns instantly. Not instant1 

Y* 

but - I’ve had some 

f :~~success at it and I told her I wou d do the best that I 

: : 6 1 could. And it was on that same day that I made the first 

::7]Call. 

[Ia! C! And first of all. before we get to the first call, 

1; 91dld you ask her an 

A 

hing about her background? 

iiF;she had 

I ta l’ ed to her about Lewis 8 Clark College, where 

one to school. I talked to her about her experience 

r::!at the W+ rte House. She said it was not exact1 a pleasant 

(23lexpenence in that she felt like some people di c? not want her 

[?q;there. 

:251 Q Did she indicate why? 

Page 40 

: i Icould look at my calendar and decide whether or not there’s a 

: I 1 place for me to see somebod And I looked at my calendar 

-3land I said, “I can see you on r he 11th. Will you come on the 

io)llth?” And she cameon the 11th. 

:51 Q Okay. So when you said “my ‘udgrnent.” mainly it’s 

i 6 1 a scheduling issue, you looked at your calen d ar. 

.-> A 

$’ _3;the , ,,h? Q 

It’s a scheduling issue. 

All right. So she met with you at your law firm on 

._l..-- --.-. 

.. 3’ .- 1 A Ri ht. 

-. 1, .a.> Q 

A 

O!a Where !s your office? 

.._I> .--1 nt Circle. 

Q 

133rNew Hampshire Avenue, right at Du 

’ i? i sooke wtih her the irst time on the ohone and she told YOU 

Okay. Npw. let me back up a second. fin you 

iii;urihat she was interested in, you told her to send a resuine, 

: ; 61 did 

: : 7 1 rela r 

ou take any notes or make any jottings of anything 

ed to that conversabon? 

::a] A No. I made some mark on the calendar or told one 

:31of the vouna women that work for me that Ms. Lewinsky is 

i$jcomini. - 

Q 

fft/anvthino. did vou do with her resume? 

Okay. And when you received her resume, what, if 

.-->- , 

::3j -’ A ’ Looked at it. 

‘-a’ Q 

i? 5 1 result of that? 

Did you make any notes or writings on anything as a 

Page 43 

A And I didn’t ask. 

So I’m assume you’re saying she did not indicate 

_____ _____ 

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1707 

1Cd __. Vernon Jordan. 3398 

_~_ --- _-- 

XMAXf8) 

Page 44 

, . Q And she rndrcated that she wasn’t happy with her 

j 1 ijob at the Department of Defense. correct’ 

12’ A She said it was not fulfillrng, it was not 

process you wonder 

No, because that was not my judgment to make. 

[B; 0 Why not? 

[91 A 

[ 10 1 comin 

Because I was not doing me hiring. She was not 

?I 

to work for me. And I have confidence In the people 

[II lwith w om I associate that they, based on their own critena, 

[ 12 1 can make the judgment. 

Q Well. 

r 

ou. as you’ve indicated, get asked 

i::ifrequently by people o help you get jobs, correct? 

115; A Right. Sure. 

Q And I assume you go through some decision mak 

\ :; i vour own mind as to which persons to refer for any job, for 

ilsistarters. toArrect? 

. . 

Ii D‘ Yes. I’m fortunate enouoh. counsel. that I aet 

; Go j very few fools and- so most of the people? come with some” 

jz? Jexperience, some have enormous experience, and some have not 

[zz 1 much. Some are students, some are Interns. some are 

rz3lwhatever. And if you have grown up black tn the south and if 

[ 24 1 

r 

ou have known and expenenced people berng re ected 

jz~l acto by their very presence, then you - certarnly t 

ipso 

or me - 

Page 47 

: .don’t remember. 

1. Q 

A 

What did you do wrth that sample of wfltrng’ 

3 I drdn’t need it. 

4: 0 Did ou look at it? 

:: 

‘Ip” 

A No. YN hat I suggested to her IS that I wouM call 

ople and that I would tell her who I was calling and 

ollowmg my call I wanted her to actually write and say that 

E : “I am wnting ou 

2 am applvina rxp or 

ursuant to a call from Vernon Jordan and I 

: : :. inter-view.” - 

job or whatever and I would like an 

- 

. Q So you indicated to her that you did not need to 

’ f f : see her writina samole. is that correct? 

.-- A *Yes.’ I didn’t need to see that. 

:1:. Q Was there an 

: IS j meeting, that you’re aware 8 

hrng else that she brought that 

o 

.. F- .--_ A Not that I’m aware. 

.--I C? DidJou writs anything down or take any notes 

iI,-.during thetee20g. 

. . >; 

_--. .^^, 

.--, Q How did the meeting end, then? What was supposed 

:::I to happen at the end of that meeting? 

r-*3 ,--: A That I would make some calls and, based on those 

::~!calls. I would call her and tell her what she was to do. 

:::I Q Did Ms. Lewinsk erther in the conversatron you had 

::njwith her on the phone previous ty o that meeting or in that 

Page 45 

11 jthere is the benefit of the doubt. I do not make judgments. 

(21 Had she been coming to work for me, I would have 

i3jasked an awful lot of questions. My job is. as I said, to 

14 Jthe extent that I possibly can create opportunities for young 

157 

IP 

eople and I have been blessed in so many ways to have access 

[6; o people who can see people and hire 

[ 7: have some oblrgation to do that. And I Re 

ople and I think I 

ave done it for 

[ 3! black kids, I’ve done it for white kids. And I’ve aCays 

! 9 :done it. And so rt was not my job to be the interviewer. 

110: I mean, if she had come in poorl dressed, bad 

ri 1: langua e. 

s 

no educatron, zero experience, tK 

hat was not the case. 

at’s quite another 

(:! thing. 

-. Q Do you make calls to businesses to try to refer 

i :< i every persrn w$ gss you for a job? 

;15: 

:I<: Q Well, let me ask it again. 

[:-‘ A If I can. 

139: 

i I4 i other. 

Q Well. that’s an if. I want to know one way or the 

Have you made calls to busrnesses asking them to 

[zc: interview every single person who’s ever written you, 

[z::contacted ou. about getting a job? 

‘1?. L.._, x 

tlj:to that is no. 

Every single person who has written me, the answer 

[24: 0 And is it accurate. sir, that the reason the answer 

(1: :is no is that you make some selection, whether brief or not, 

Page 45 

: 1: meeting ever give you sort of a list of corn anies 

r: : 2 : companies that she would want to work at. 

or types of 

:3; A As a matter of fact, she had some notron about PR 

: I ; companies that she was interested in, but I was not 

: 5 1 interested in that list. I was only interested in places 

: ilthat I would refer her to, as op osed to places that she 

-7 1 thou 

:?lshe 

ht she wanted to work. R I remember, the places that 

j? I did Lf 

ou ht she wanted to work I either didn’t know people or 

not ave a relationship and I said, in effect. “I will 

: I z;decide who I’m going to call, you can’t decide that. I will 

: : : j decide that.” 

..-. 

.--_ Q Once again, because its your decision to decide 

::3’who to call, not hers. :. .: 

.-7. A Absolutely. 

.--- 

.--. Q 

-:.,list? 

When you say she had a list, did she show you a 

..__j A I think maybe she did. 

; 1s : Q 

::3lcompanies? 

And can you tell us the names of any of the 

r.,_ 

,--. A I cannot remember. I cannot remember. 

:_. . Q So our record is clear, I’m assuming you’re saying 

i zs j you can’t remember what names were on the list. 

:I31 A I do not remember what names were on the list. 

.:i: Q I think ou indicated a little while a o that atIer 

.I 5 1 the meeting on the 11 r h with Ms. Lewinsky you d i% make a call 

Page 46 

[i 1 as to when you’re going to make a referral and when you’re 

[?:not? 

A I can show you mail from long before this happened 

I: j from people whom I do not know and I have to practice law, 

13 1 I’m not running an employment agency, and so I cannot be 

[c; ! responsive and some letter goes out saying thank you, but I 

: :! cannot be helpful to But where I hear from friends and 

[s ! associates I readily r ry to be helpful if I can be helpful. 

ou. 

t5: Q Let me ask my question again. 

[IO: A Okay. 

1::: Q Is k accurate, sir, that ou en age in some 

[I: !selection in your own, mind as to whr c8 peop z you are going 

[ lj! to make re2rraFetr jobs versus whrch you aren t? 

ou had on December 1 lth with 

ow long would you say it 

izojlasted? _ _ 

[2:1 A Fifteen, twenty minutes. 

:22: Q 

r.-i,hm7 

Did Ms. Lewinsky bring anything to the meeting with 

L__I:.._. 

A She sent me her resume. I think she may have 

iz: i brought some sample of her writing or something like that. I 

Page 49 

: : 1 to someone. 

.?I .-. A Yes. 

.: 3 : 0 On her behalf. 

.41 A Yes. 

:5j Q Who did you call? 

:i: A I called Revlon. That was the first call. 

.-.. 

:,: 

0 Why did you call Revlon? 

- , A I have a relationship there. I’m a director. I’m 

: 3: counsel. It is a place where I have friends. I called 

: : :! Revlon. I also told her that I would call American Express 

: : I ! and that I would call Young 8 Rubicam, which is an 

: :z 1 adverbsin 

B 

agency. 

Okay. Well, let me break this down so I don’t get 

i ii; confused. Okay. Lets go back 

::sjMs. Lewinsky. So if I understan ;r 

ou’re at the meeting wdh 

; ; 6 1 told her during 

what you’re saying now, you 

.I? I Revlon? 

the meeting that you were going to call 

:, 

L. 3; 1 A Yes. 

::31 Q 

A 

American Express and - 

.-<‘l, :-i, Young & Rub&m. It’s a New York advertising 

i:: 1 agency. 1^,1 

FI;ielse? 

0 Did you indicate to her that you would call anyone 

:-X’1. A No. 

h Did you indicate to her that maybe you’d call 

Page 44 to Page 49 
1708 

ISA __. Vernon Jordan, 313198 XWXx(9I 

Page 50 

;:. others wlthout specifying whrch company? .^. 

.- A I may have. 

ci 

i ;.that time, 

Q 

had 

At the trme when you met with her on the 11 th or by 

i 5; rntetvrewed w i? 

ou gotten any Information that she had 

h anyone in relation to a United Nations job? 

!6. A She. as I recollect, said something about her 

: - interest in other jobs in the government and she may have, I 

f 5: cannot sa wrth any specificrty. she ma have menboned the 

;e:tJnited Na r ions. I just don’t recall that. t; ut what was 

i : 3~ clear to me was that she did not want to work for the 

; 1: Igovernment. she wanted to work in the private sector. That I 

; I: Iremember 

113’ .~.. Q And that’s based on December 11 th. up to that 

[ 14 : point. 

115: A Right. 

0 I have in my notes that there was a press statement 

i i4i by Ms. Lewtnsky’s attorney. Ginsburg, on Meet the Press 

rrslsayrn 

s 

that she met with you,in early November instead of 

! la!early ecember. 

t~o;thats rnacourate? 

Do you belteve that that may be true, that 

A I have no recollection of an early November meeting 

l?i i with Ms. Monica Lewrnsky. I have 

r:;lof it and I have no record of it. 

absolutely no recollection 

Q Do you have any recollection - so I’m assuming 

[f:lfrom what you’re saying is you don’t believe that that’s 

Page 51 

L II accurate. 1 A I don’t know it to be accurate based on what I 

I;! remember and based on my calendar. Did I meet Monica 

[ 4 Lewinsky in November? I just don’t think I did. 

[5: Q 

A 

But you can’t exclude It. 

I don’t think I did. It’s not on my calendar and I 

itidon’t recall it. I think. though, that I would have 

i 3 j remembered it. 

Q And, similarly, I’m assuming it also goes that you 

,iz:don’t recall speakrng with Be Curne about Monica Lewinsky 

i : 1: in early November as oppose 

111: A That’scorrec? 

to in early December. 

t13: Q As to Ms. Cume. how often would you speak with 

[ 14 : her as a general matter7 

[:j: A Well, rf I’m callin the White House, if I’m 

: 16: calling the President. if I am cal ? rng her - Betty has 

~171 had some tra 

4 

edy. Her sister assed and I called to talk 

; :9! to her about t at. Her mother E as been ill, I called to 

; :g! talk to her about her mother. And in December, her brother 

[ZOJ assed. So I could have talked to her about any number of 

[:ll!hings. 

r_)q. Also, m 

123(frorn time to trme r 

office talks to Bett Currie because 

get requests for au ogra hed photographs 

[ 2 4 : of the President and when we want to 4 et t I! at ex pdited, my 

[ 2 5: secretary calls Betty Curne and she ge s It expe rted. 

Page 52 

Or Ms. Coleman. Would call Ms. Currie to make sure 

: 7 1 correct? 

te: A That’s correct. 

Q And then I think you indicated that during 

[Iii Ms. Curries times of unfortunate tra 

[ :: ~you would call and wish her well an ? 

edies with her famrly 

talk to her about that, 

[ 12 1 correct? 

[131 A Yes. 

0 And I’m assuming that there are times - I may not 

i ::; assume. Are there times when you would call Ms. Currie to 

rl6lspeak with President Clinton? 

A 

I :i i It either goes 

You just don’t ring into the, President’s office. 

r19jo 

- if he’s in the resrdence, directly to the 

rator, but if he’s in his office, you’ve got to go throu h 

120 1 f&&y Hemreich or Bet$ Cume. I do not have a direc? line 

[~llto the President of the nrted States except through the 

133 IWhite House operator or one or two or three of his .~~. 

r23lassistants. 

114‘ 0 Okay. Well, let me o back. I just want to make 

r3sisure I understand from when we ta i/r ed about rt earlier. If I 

Page 53 

I: ‘recall correctly. and I just want to make sure I understand 

:: Iwhen you need to talk to the President at the White House 

;3:you would call the switchboard. That would be one way, 

: 4 j correct? 

:j: A 

16: Q 

i-: A That’s Ms. Hemreich’s number. 

!8: Q Do you ever call a number that IS ~pecifical~! 

islassrgned to Ms. Cume In order to reach - 

A No. I do not know Ms. Cume’s direct numbeii y 1 because if you calls you get either Ms. Cume or you get 

r:rlMs. Hernrerch 

i13! 0 Okay. So to your knowledge, calkng II) rs n 

114lessence callin - 

A ?t connects me with the Oftice of the Preside-: of 

i: z 1 the United States and either Ms. Cume or Rebecca or MS 

1; 7 1 Hemreich answer the tele hone. 

[Ia! Q WhoaRe Ee cca? 

119: A She sort of works for Ms. Currie and Ms. He-reich. 

Q Okay. So one of those three people would xswer 

I:;{ the phone, correct? 

[Z?l A Right. 

Cl And I’m assuming many of those calls..wher you call 

if: i that numbAr. it’s to see if you can speak with the President 

1251 It may be and it may not be. 

Page 54 

0 What would be the nature of the calls that you 

I:iwould call that number on when it’s not to s ak to the 

r3lPresident? And set aside Ms. Curries fame y. v srtuatron that 

~4 lyou told usAabout. 

I may be callin Izi What is the President’s sche 

[I?‘! Q 

A 

And what is his official title, do you know? 

/::ihis official title is. 

Vice president for something, but I don’t know what 

;25i Q That would be vice president for something a! 

Page 55 

[ 11 McAndrews 8 Forbes? 

A McAndrews 8 Forges. I do not know what hs - I’ve 

iii never known what hrs specific title is but he’s a ood man. 

Q Now. when in relation’ to the mee In wdh 

i z i Ms. LewinskJ do you believe you would have call ?z% 

! 6 1 Mr. Halper 

IT! 

!81 0 

I think I called him the same day. 

So around December 11 th, after the meeting 

191 A Right. Right. 

[lOI Q 

A 

And what did you tell Mr. Halpenn? 

IZl]workin 

That Monica Lewinsky a former White House intern 

.? 

at the Defense Department wanted to move to New York, 

[ 13 lwas in erested in working in the private sector in public 

[ 14 1 relations! and that she was going to write to him and would 

[151 he interview her to see if there was something at Revlon tht 

rlslshe could do. 

I171 0 

1181 A 

And what did Mr. Halperin say? 

He said he would interview her. 

Q Was there any discussion between you and 

ifz;Mr. Halpe? aboo Ms. Lewinsky’s qualifications? 

I211 

1221 0 Did he ask? 

i23i A No. 

[241 Q 

[25lexperience? 

Any discussion about any details of her work 

OlCStarr Page 50 to Page 55 
1709 

BSA Vernon Jordan. 313t98 IY*.I,,D, 

Page 56 

A No. 

- Q Did Mr. Hal 

‘31 indicate to him how it p” 

tin indicate to you or did you 

shou d be handled from that pomt on 

: c 1 in terms of who would send a resume, who would contact who? 

e;. A I su 

iiifrorn him and that s 9, 

gested to him that she would hear directly 

e was back and forth to New York and that 

;:!I would ho 

&a 

that he would interview her. 

[ Z j conversation? 

And anything else stand out in your mend about that 

End of conversation. 

iIs ifoiget if. 

0 So you didn’t specify even which of the companies 

if:iwithin all the companies that are part of McAndrews & Forbes 

Page 57 

1 ~you thoug; ~0;;. be appropriate. 

-3 -> 

Q Now, let me back up a second. What did you do with 

2; the resume of Ms. Lewinsky that ou got from her? 

A Her job was to WI-I ?e the letters and send the 

z;resumes herseif because I don’t have time to do that. 

-1 Q But m question, sir, is you told us you got a 

3 1 resume from her on d ecember 8th, I believe, and you had it 

stand you kept it and you met with her, correct? 

::o; A Yes. 

: 1 t 1 .--, 0 

A 

What did vou do with it after that? 

::I! I assume it@s in a file. 

Q Okay. Do you remember getting a sub 

[ ;z i you served with a subpoena relating to documents in 

oena? Were 

t 1 IS 

::j!matter? 

:15: A 

Q 

And we have complied with that subpoena. 

,._I, Who was it who actually attem 

P 

ted to do the 

j Isicompliance, who went through the records to ook for things? 

119; A M secretary. 

’ z :a IQ 

.:?i 

Okay. Did you do that personally? 

.T_: 

A No. 

Q Okay. Now, as of this time, which I think we’re up 

1 z j j to December 11 th, did you have any understanding now after 

::; ‘speaking with Ms. Lewlnsky in person as to whether or not she 

: : 5 1 even knew President Clinton? 

._ -.____. __- ___--____-__ 

Page 58 

A She was a White House intern and so the knowledge 

if 1 of President Clinton was not then an issue for me. 

:3: Q Is the answer no, sir? 

A Well ask the question again. Did she know 

i l i President Clinton? ‘Obviously she knew President Clinton 

: 6 I because she yas an intern. so I dqn’t understand your 

;; :questton. but I m hap y to answer It. 

Q Well 1;‘, trying to ask the same question I asked 

i ii after the call on the ‘8th.. but ma be I was unclear there. 

: : 3 1 Did you discuss at all with Ms. I ewinsky any aspect of 

: I: 1 President Clinton, whether she knew him, whether he had met 

: : 2 J him, whether she worked closely with him whether the 

: :3 1 discussions, anything along those lines? fhis is as of M 

had 

e 

:!Jlllth. 

i i 2; she 

A As of the 11 th two thin s were clear to me, that 

real1 

:: 7 1 House. r 

liked her experiende of an in ? em In the White 

mean, that was clear. It was also clear that she, 

; I 3 1 like most interns, liked the fact that the internship put you 

i 191 in the vicinity of the President. She said, “It’s the 

::OI reatest job I’ve ever had.” That’s not the first time I’ve 

: 2 11 R card that from an intern. To be in the White House, working 

: 211 there and you 

.? 

et to see the President of the United States, 

:: 3 1 the Vice Press ent of the United States, you et to see 

: 2 4 ; cabinet people coming to and fro from the W z. Ite House for 

::jlcabinet meetings. I mean, that was just clear. 

Page 59 

Q What do 

1:. liked her expenence at t l? 

ou base your conclusion that she really 

e White House? What was said that 

: I: -made youfnclude that? 

:: “I real1 Ilked workin for the Whrte House, 

= .Mr. Jordan. 1 really II ?? ed being a & tte House mtern.” .- 

.; 0 Now. I think you lndlcated to us a few minutes ago 

;‘-that she indicated somewhere In there that there was some 

That she was not there any more and 

t.-:that whomever was in charge had made her presence there as an 

i i 1 ; Intern uncomfortable. That was clear. 1. ~- 

II?‘ h And what did she s& to make that clear? . 

i:3: A She said that she wds uncomfortable and she thought 

;20 : people did not want her there. 

I?:. .--, Q Whv is that? 

Mine was not to reason why. 

[ZZ] A Wh’ should I? 

[-‘1; Q Wei, for starters. because you’re about to pick up 

[I: ; the phone and call a very hi 

: zz j that you sit on the board an 1 

h ranking executive at a 

your reputation could be 

company 

Page 60 

:: Isomewhat on the line based on any referrals you make, 

;-?jcorrect? 

:>: A M reputation is fine and I was not concerned about 

: 4 ! my reputation. hz y concern was that here was a kid who had 

:: !obviously liked worktng in the White House, was not there, 

i 6 I who was at the Defense Department, who had been sent to me by 

.- 1 Be Currie saying she wanted a job in the private sector, 

j 3 land s was happ to be helpful. 

Ij: Q let me get back to my question you asked me. 

iI:. 

1::: 

A Okay. 

Q You said wh 

(1: : details of her background. r 

should you be concerned wRh any 

s that accurate? 

[:3: A 

I;: 1 her, right? 

I was not hiring her, counsel. I was referring 

And I had enough there that I could refer her in 

; 15; good conscience. She did not have a criminal record, she did 

I:c!not - she was a fine looking youn 

:: - 1 was a college graduate, she’d ha B 

lady with a resume, she 

two experiences sinoz 

: : s ! college as an intern and at the Defense Department. 

,. ;. She was unhappy with the government and she wanted 

)s 5 i to work in the private sector. I was hap 

:I: : that based on the fact that Betty Currie t 

y to facilitate 

ad called me and 

: 1: 1 asked me to do that. 

[:3: Q Now. as of the time that you decided to facilitate 

:: ; : that on December 11 th. is it accurate that the only 

i I 5: information you had about her was from that one call with Ms. 

Page 61 

:: i Currie and then whatever you 

j 2 : talked to 8 

ot from Ms. Lewlnsky when she 

2 ;3!with you. 

ou on the phone an sent you the resume and met 

ill! A That’s correct. 

~_ __~~ 

Page 56 to Page 61 OlCStarr 
1710 

ESA Vernon Jordan. 313198 

Page 82 Page 65 

: -for a long tlme. Our kids are fnends. And I called to 

-I -check on him. both of us have expenenced the death of 

.X .spouses. and so I followed up shortly tier that and talked 

’ to Peter and Peter went about his business and I went about 

:; ‘my busmess and that was a noted fact. that Peter was dating 

-r ‘Ms. Lemnsky then. 

._ I thought that was fine, I never heard of 

.E ‘Ms. Lewmsky’s mother, the fact that she was dattng Peter 

-.Straus. I met that information or took R In with an 

: i : -approving smile. 

,-- Q And this would have coma out during your meeting 

ii::with her on the llth? 

..z A Yes, I think so. 

0 So ou know Peter Straus or you knew of him, having 

ii ;;been rn that much r ouch with him; did not know her mother, 

: 1 -c jMarcia Lezis. 

:” Never met her. 

your knowledge didn’t have any other 

Familial or othemise. 

I-1: A No. 

;zj: 0 Now, after your conversation with Mr. Halperin. did 

~2: :you make any other calls on behalf of Ms. Lewinsky? 

I-= 

,--. A Yes. I called Peter Georgesco who is chairman and 

Page 63 

: : : CEO of Young 8 Rubicam and I called Unie -, I can’t think of 

: r : her last name at the moment - who is the Semor Vice 

:z: President for Human Resources at American Express. 

. -. A After the 1 lth or on the 1 lth, right in that time. 

1 i5 j And it had to be between the 11 th and that Friday because ! 

: 1:. flew that weekend afler the 11 th, I went to Rome and I yas In 

: : I. Rome for one ni ht and then I was in London and I was In 

‘. ._. : T London. I think, 9 or three nights, and then I flew from 

i: - : London togDallas. - 

‘- ;’ And this is somewhere like December 12th. 13th. 

if ,:somewheri in there? 

.__. 

.--_ .^. 

.-- Q 

THAt’s right. That’s right. 

So all total 

left I? 

ou were gone four or five days? 

._.. 

--. A I think I or Rome on Friday. 

--:- Q I’m lookin 

.!;. Friday and December 1 !3?h 

at my calendar, December 12th was a 

‘-i 

.--. A Yes. I lefl for was Rome a Fnda8-. on nday and I returned back 

Page 64 

:: -to Washm ton, I believe, on Wednesday from Dallas. .^. B So we’re oing to do rou h estimates. I assume you 

.?I think it would have been % nday. the 1 28 through Wednesday, 

.;:the 17th? 

A That’s right. I may have one to Rome on Thursday. 

:: I was in Rome one night. I don’t remem %er. 

if : calendar and you have m 

But it’s on my 

:::Okay. 

Q We actual Y ydon’t. We’ll talk about that later. 

calendar. 

An 

r 

other - and obviously, the lgth, then, which is a 

: : : :Friday. is he day that you heard from Ms. Lewinsky about the 

::::subpoena, correct? 

A Fridav. the 191h. 

0 Yes, jir 

A That’s correct. 

Q All rioht. Now. in between the 11th and the 191h. 

1 f z i other than these calls that air 

::-,Geo 

: : 5 1 and ze 

sco at Young 8 Ru g. 

indicated you made to 

tcam Fairbum at American Express 

alpenn and Md\ndrews 8 ~orbes/Revlon. did you call 

::;fanyone else on behalf of Ms.. Lewinsky? 

.._. A 

[! 1; Ms. Lewinsky. 

No, I did not call anyone else on behalf of 

I am certain after the 11 th that I had a 

- - conversation with the President and as a part of that 

::i. conversation I said to him that Be Currie had called 

i F; : me about Monica Lewinsky. And ‘x t e conversation was that he 

: z 5: knew about her situation, which was that she was pushed out 

OlCStarr 

: 1 of the Whtte House, that she wanted to go to New York. and he 

131 Q Okay. So some time between the 1 lth and the 1 

:4 IDid you make an notes or anythmg about this conversatron. 

:sjat least as it wou r d relate to Ms. Lewinsky? 

:1i1 A I did not. 

I:‘] Q So President Clinton indicated that he was familiar 

: :s lwdh her and her situation at the White House? 

::91 A Yes. He said that he was aware that people were 

;:o 1 tryin to et ‘obs for her, that Podesta was tryin to help 

:211 her, 9 hat %. III #? lchardson was trying to help her, % ut that 

:zlshe wanted to really work in the pnvate sector ._ He .-was ~~_. 

::j!aware of that. 

;41 Q 

:-‘51 A 

Did he thank ou for trying to get her a job? 

Yes. As he a k ays does. 

______._ --- 

Page 66 

., 1 

1, :? Q Did he encoura 

Tlli alI 

e ou to keep trying? 

;;idoing. 

No, he just than e me. I told him what I was 

was not a conversation, this was a part of a 

lconversation about other thin 

.’ 

s. And I related to him that I 

,I had otten this call, that I ha 

51was?,vino to helo, 

seer! Ms. ,Lewinskv and that I 

her get a job in the private sedor and he 

said. ?hsnk you’ very much.” 

telieve that this call would have been *_ _I, .I____+? 

i4 

!5 

16. 

‘71: 

is! Q _ And do you b 

: 9 1 after you had made the calls IO all mrr< 

.I01 A I think so. Yes. 

:‘I 

::, 

Q Did the President say al 

_I_ {conversation to make you !hink that be 

: 13 ,I relationship o 

.:4 1 or otherw?? 

i:s1 

.:I51 0 

n a personal level wrth MS. Lewinkky, platonic 

He did not. 

.-., Did ou ask him dunng that conversation any 

17 I oointed auestions a i out - 

i:sj’ A I did not. 

Q 

~~~~clean record. 

Oka 

Abou r 

Let me finish my question so we’ve got a 

the nature of his relationship with Ms. 

: 2 11 Lewinsky. 

._j_)l 

--, A I did not. 

.‘3’ Q Thank you. When you spoke with Ms. Lewinsky on t 

i :: j 11 th or in the phone conversation prior to that, did you and 

‘:slshe discuss salary at all? 

Page 67 

:11 A 

;z 1 recollect the conversation, It was 

! 3 1 thought that her experiences at the White House and at 

i 4 1 Defense Department meant that her value, as she saw it. in 

! s 1 the private sector was greater than what I thought the market 

i61would bear. 

.__,_ _-.- ..-. _..-_. 

Q And this would have probably been in that Dece 

.--. I ,i i 11 th conversation? 

!I91 A Yes, probably. 

fzoj Q 

; 7 I I world worked. 

So YOU enlightened her as to the way the business 

___,~~_ - - 

.“I-- A Yes. That’s all a part of this process. 

:231 Q Now. I just want to make sure I understand the 

1~4 lpeople during that timeframe. December 1 lth through, December 

: 2 5 1191h, that you would have spoken to at these companies on 

Page 62 to Page 67 
PCI - Vernon Jordan, 313198 

_. 

XMAx(12J 

Page 68 

:-behalf of Ms. Lewmsky. so let’s just start with McAndrews 8 

-,Forbes and then Revlon You rndtcated that 

-T.Mr. Haloerin. correct7 Drd you speak to Mr. 6 

ou spoke to 

erelman? 

.- 

A I did not. . 

Q During that timeframe? 

: G_ A No. 

Q Can you ex lain to us - because I wanted to do it 

i 2 j anyway, you indicated Mr. 6 erelman’s companies earlier. Can 

: 2; ou just explain to us who he is and what’s hrs relationship 

::r; r o the McAndrews 8 Forbes companies? 

. . . . A Ronald Perelman IS a native of Philadelphia, went 

::I ;to school at the Unrversrty of Pennsyhrania. the Wharton 

ifizSchool. I think worked in his fathers busrness for a time 

: : 4 ! and chose to try his own entrepreneurial skills. Was very 

., ~.~~successfuI. I drdn’t know him. I first met hrm when he was 

: : 6: trying to - when he was doin a takeover of Revlon, 

::-.actuall . 

c :9 j at a U. It 

And he was point e2 out to me by Mrchelle Berjerac 

Open tennis tournament, who was then the chairman 

,s!of Revlon and he said, 7hat little fellow over there IS 

;?o!trying to take my company.” And it turns out that that 

;.:;;happened. 

i?_‘> Q Was Mr. Perelman the head of McAndrews 8 Forbes and 

;:31it% companies? 

[14] A He owns McAndrews 8 Forbes, as I understand it. 

.‘5’ ,- . Q Did you speak at all during this December 1 Ith 

Page 69 

I, 

, _ 1 through December 19th period with a Mr. Gittis? 

j;:Lewinsky. 

A I did not talk to Howard Gittis about Monica 

I am in touch with Howard Gittis all the time, but 

14 ionce I talked to Richard Halperin, that was enough. But as 

is!you will see from the phone records, you will see - what you 

[6]do have, you will see that I have spoken to Howard G~ths, 

:T; but not on this particular matter. 

:c- Q 

i ?Iwith him? 

Okay. How about Barry Schwartz? Did you speak 

::3: A Bar 

r 

Schwartz is eneral counsel to McAndrews 8 

: 1: :Forbes and I did no talk to Barry ‘s chwartz. I Only talked to 

:: : Richard Halperin. 

..-. Q And 

: fl’i him durina that time r 

our recollection would be you didn’t talk to 

iisiabout - - 

rame or you _ just didn’t talk to him . 

::61 A I did not talk to him about Ms. Lewinsky. 

Q Anyone else at McAndrews 8 Forbes or Revlon 

i f z ; would have spoken to about Ms. Lewinsky between December Y 

ou 

1 th 

: : :: and Decezber;ifh? 

:2c‘ .^. Q And lets do the same with Young 8 Rubicam. You 

t!~ijspoke with Mr. Georgesco. is that correct? 

_--. -94. _- 

A Peter Geor#esco.Jes. 8 

Q And is he t e hea of Youn & Rubicam? 

._I;. 

--. A He is the chairman and CE 

____ 

Page 70 

Q And then is there a compan named Burson that’s - 

Burson-Marsteller. Bunon- f% arsteller is a 

and it is the public relations arm of Young 8 

ou speak to anyone else other than Mr. 

at December 1 lth to December 19th 

the only person at Youn 8 

that I ever spoke to abou 9 

And as far as American Express, you spoke with Ms. 

: :z 1 Fairbum, correct? 

-‘3’ >- , A And that is it. 

:14: Q No one else during that timeframe? 

;:5’ A No. 

.161 0 Are you on the board of directors of all three of 

i :7 j those corn anies? _ 

il8! R I’m on the board of directors of American Express 

::g:I’m on the board of directors of Revlon. I am not a director 

: z 3: of Young 8 Rubicam. which up until last week was a pnvate 

121 icompan 

:z land d’s Y tkely to become a public company. But I am not a 

They are now floabng an rnrtial publrc offenng 

:?jldirector. 

:z4: 0 And were you ever? 

::5: A No. But I’ve had a long-time relationship with 

: : I Young & R;brcsm. 

[Z. 

13 1 Knowlton7 

Do you know Mr. Paster of HIII - I thmk it’s 

(4‘ A Howard Paster. I do know Howard Paster. 

lif Q Drd you speak to him between the 11 th and tne 19th 

16 jabout MS pwmsky? 

He was one of the people that I wanted to talrr to 

jziabout Monica Lewrnsk 

)9 I never talked and I thin 

but to m recollectron. Howard and I 

f? that was 6 

;iolto calltng him. 

ecause I never got around 

Q What about a company named Straus Communicatrons 

i ti j Are you familiar with that? 

[i?! A 

i14j 0 

That is Peter Straus’ company. 

Would you have spoken with anyone at Straus 

i 15 1 Communi~trons? 

I did not speak with anyone at Straus 

i i7” iCommunrcations. The only person I would know to call at 

: I B 1 Straus Communications would be Peter Straus and it never 

[I 9 1 dawned on me to call Peter Straus about this. 

I?O! Q Now are there any companies that you’re on the 

tzl] board of directors of in New York that have primary sites in 

t :z! New York that would be involved in 

2 

ublic relatrons or have 

t24jMs. eewiniky? 

tzslany ublic relations an that you dr not call on behalf of 

125: I did not call Bankers Trust. I did not call Dow 

_~___~~_ 

Page 72 

: 6; there any other persons that you had ever called those 

17 1 companres. Richard Halpenn or otherwise. about placing at 

1 s 1 those wm anies? 

141 Al Sure. 

i2”j 0 Who? 

:::I A Want to talk about Webb Hubbell? 

iI!?‘ I--, Q Okav. Well. he would be one. 

‘73) 

,- > A Yes.. 

!:I; 0 Webb Hubbell, that would have been what year that 

[ISIYOU called on hrs behalf7 

Page 73 

(1: A The year I cannot - the year that he was in 

rzltrouble. 

131 0 And Webb Hubbell at the time was the number three 

r4jperson - 

A 

i 2 i Department. 

He was the number three person at the Justice 

He came to me and said that he was 

L 7 1 leave the Justice Department and he needed some 3, 

oing to 

elp and I 

[B 1 helped him. 

r91 Q And he had been an attorney for several years prior 

t i o j to that, correct? 

A 

I::iLittle Rock. 

He had been an attorney at The Rose Law Firm in 

Q Other than Webb Hubbell are there an other 

1::; persons who you made a referral to McAndrews 8 Fo L s or 

t 15 j Revlon? 

A Yes. And if you ask me to name them, I can show 

i :t i ou the rewrds of them but they do not come to mind. Webb 

[I a 1 h ubbell comes easily to mind for all of the obvious reasons. 

[ 19 1 Here a ain, 

[ 20 1 referra I! 

I write numerous letters, I make numerous 

In your deposition from Revlon, I’m sure they 

[~II ave you letters of people that I had written to. I think 

r:z 1 B e most recent letter to Revlon was probably involving a 

[ 23 1 young woman livin in New York. 

Q We i-I , we are interested in getting records of other 

1:: 1 people that you have referred. 

Page 88 to Page 73 

~____ -- -- _ _. -__ 

oicstarr 
1712 

BSA Vernon Jordan, 313198 XhuX(13) 

::. 

. . . 

Page 74 

A I thank we responded to that via subpoena. 

0 Well. I auess what I’ll do is mavbe we can address 

i 5 i it with yourattorney’d&ng the break to makeiure 

!4. A That’s fine. 

Q Are there an 

1 z jYoung 8 Rubicam on behal Y 

other persons that you made calls to 

of? 

Page 75 Page 78 

ill Q And we’ll discuss that in the same manner with you 

rzland your attome during a break. 

[31 A Ai right. 

[4! Q How about American Express? Same question. 

[5j A Yes. 

[El Q Who have ou referred to American Express? 

A I think my fy irst and most successful referral to 

1 i1 American Express goes all the way back to the earfy ’80s when 

! ~]a collea ue of mine, Weldan Rugio, left the Carter 

: lo!adminrs -a ration where he was director of the Office of 

ii: !Contract Compliance and he left the government and went to 

: :: !work in travel-related services for Amencan Express I 

; :3 1 remember that ve well. 

1141 0 So%e was you said a colleague of yours By that 

:; 5 1 Iam assuming he is someone who had been engaged In business 

i 10 1 and/or a profession for some time? 

II! BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q During the timeframe December 1 lth through Decem 

I:; 19th. prior to Ms. Lewmsky contacting you about the 

j4lsubpoena. did you have any other conversations with 

151 Ms. Lewinsky other than the one in your office on the 11 th? 

A Several. She, as I said, had a 

I: i anxiety about this ‘ob and so she was calling 

ood deal of 

[al-How IS “B”‘I$J 3 1 

t a e office, 

‘ve done this. I’ve done that.” She was 

[ 91 conceme an was concerned about the speed of thin 

a 

s and in 

[ lolthat sense I thought was - her enthusrasm exceeded t e 

: 111 reality of the circumstances. 

Q Okay. Let me come back to that, but just so I’m 

i :: i clear on the conversation we’ve already covered, I just want 

i14 jto make sure. When you first spoke to her on the phone. 

[ ~slwhich you’re estimating was December 8th or thereabouts, 

k i6 1 which afterwards she sent you the resume, how long would you 

: 17 ! say the conversation was with her? 

‘141 A Teleohone conversation? 

aw School before he came to work for me 

.--> 

:191 Q Mm&mm. 

:201 A Counsel, I cannot answer that. You have the phone 

i 211 records which shows you exact1 

r :? 1 and a second or two seconds - r 

whether it was two minutes 

,--, mean, I cannot - 

;231 Q 

[24! A 

Well, you have the phone records, too, correct? 

Yes, but I have not reviewed the phone records in 

115 1 terms of time. I do know that there were calls, you know 

Page 76 

i 11 for four or five years 

r-> 0 Let me iust tell vou the reason I’m asking the 

Page 77 

: : : CEOs on behalf of entry-level persons at these companres 

,... a-. A Dtd ou read today’s Wall Street Journal’ 

:3; Q No 7 did not. 

A We!l. I recommend that There’s a story on the 

j “, i back page where I met a person who IS on a chantable board 

16 jwrth me in Cinunnati and she menttaned to me her son and I 

[!3lall. 

Q Okay. And we’ll just address that wrth you and 

ii:jyaur counsel in a break and tnen we can say on the record how 

[161we want to address rt. Is that fair? 

!i71 A That’s fine with me. 

THE FOREPERSON: 

~:~~frve-minute break now? 

Would you like to take maybe a 

fzoj MR. BIENERT: Certainly. Whatever is best for you. 

[211 THE FOREPERSON: Yes. Why don’t we do that? Wh 

[zildon’t we take ten minutes and you can discuss what you need 

[23]to discuss and the rand jurors can have a break. 

1241 MR. BIEdERT: Okay. Thank ou. 

!251 (Witness excused. Wb-ress reca 7 led.) 

Page 79 

i I 1 that there were calls. I cannot tell you the length of those 

[ 2 1 calls. I can tell you that to the extent that there were 

[ 31 calls, they were calls reflecting her anxrety. her 

[ 4 ~frustration, and her need to know that something was going to 

[51 happen. 

Q 

15 j something was 

So that would have occurred, this need to know 

A & I said earher 4 I ma 

oing to happen would have occurred - 

1;; impression that things happened like t t! 

she was under the 

at and I think that 

[lolshe - even after disabustng her of that, I don’t think she 

[ 1 I 1 really believed me. 

Q Your recollection of the call on the Bth, though, 

i ::i without the benefit of looking at the actual records is that 

i 14 j it was a short call? - 

I:zisay to her 

A It was a call sufficiently long enough for me to 

- ask her a few questions to say to her that I 

f 17lwould see her, to say to her to bring her resume. For me, it 

r 18 1 was a routine call. I didn’t treat it any other way. The 

:191length of it, I just cannot accurately tell you how long it 

rzolwas. 

!211 0 A muple of times when I was asking you questions 

r22!about. for example, whether there was an early November 

[23~meetrng with Ms. Lewinsky, you indicated that you don’t think 

1241~0 because you don’t see any records that reflected that. 

[251 A I think that I would have remembered an early 

Page 74 to Page 79 
1713 

__. wa* . Vernon Jordan, 313198 

: : 1 November meetrng wrth Ms. Lewrnsky. I do not rerne?wr an 

: 2 1 early November meehng with Ms. Lewinsky. 

Q Now. first of all, when you make reference to you 

i: i don’t see any records reflecting such a meetrng, wha: would 

: 5 1 be the universe of records that you would expect to exot - 

i.5: A 

;7’ Q 

My calendar in my office 

Can I finish the questron? In regard tc a meeting 

[s iwith Ms. Lewmsky. It would be your personal calenoa: m 

[ 9 1 your office. correct? 

;:01 A That is kept by my secretary. 

i ii i keeps. 

Q And so you have a calendar that your secretary 

Are there any other documents that you woukc expect 

:I 3 1 to reflect a meeting with Ms. Lewmsky? 

A No. The onl document that I have tn my 

iii/that tells me where I go an (r B 

ossessron 

[ 16 isecrebms are SuffiCIentI 

what I do is my calendar an my 

wise and experienced nOI :O kt 

! 17 !me have control of the ca Y endar. 

Q Now let’s go back to the meeting on tne 1 lth with 

/ ki j Ms. Lewinsky and I want to m-address exactly what you recall 

i?oj her saying regardin 

121 IUS in as much detar ? as you can and as best you can recall 

President Clinton. So if you coud tell 

i:;iwhat she s;id. 

(771 “I loved beino in the White House. It’s wonderful 

; ; ; j working in- a place where thz President of the United States, 

[ 2 5 1 the Vice President of the United States and cabinet members 

‘. 1~2s in the flow of the conversatron and I told htm about :: 1- 

1~ : I got hrs response. 

Q Did logrc also make 

ii; with President Clinton that he woul dy 

ou conclude pnor tc talking 

have been rnvolved In 

: 5 j discussing Ms. Lewinsky wrth Ms. Cume before she calred 

I6lVOU? 

:7j- A No. No. 

!3: 0 How ton 

I 9 !did vou and he discuss R, 

dunng the conversatron with the Presiden: 

s Lewinskv? 

i:c: A As far as I’m concerned, it was a fleetmg matter. 

(1: 1 It was not 2 matter that we soent an awful lot of ttme on I 

I:; 1 informed hrm. he responded. we went on to our next sub!ect. 

r:3lwhatever that was. 

Q So is it accurate, then, that your testimony would 

i:zibe it was no more than 2 very few minutes that you discussed 

[ 16 1 Ms. Lewinskyp 

[17: A That’s correct It was not a concentrated 

i 18 j conversation. 

(191 BY MR. BITTMAN: 

Q Would it be fair to say. Mr. Jordan that when you 

iiy;spoke to the President about Ms. Lewinsky, you just indeted 

I 2: 1 that you brought her name up. 

f231 A Yes. 

124 i Q 

[25]name? 

That you expected the President to recognue her 

Page 83 

XuAXfl4) 

Page 81 

;; ;are cominato and fro.” 

i 3 1 Clinton? 

Drd she say anything further about President 

!4! A Not tom recollection. 

Q Did she r alk about President Clinton in an 

i z i separate and apart from just a generalized statement tha Y 

way 

I 7 I it’s wonderful workinq where the President and the Vrce 

; 3 j President rd cabi& members - 

!9! I have no recollection of that. 

;:01 0 Did she sa anything in that meeting tnat made you 

(; 11 or suggested to you that s II e had any interachon wrtn 

[ 12 1 President Clinton other than working in the same burkhng 

: 13 Iwhere he and the Vice President and cabinet members would 

[i4]come and 

w 

o? 

Not that that would have - no. Not that rt would 

i iz; have made me think otherwise. I don’t think so. 

..,; 

.- 0 Not at all? 

:I’,; A Not at all. 

0 Now lets focus on the conversation you had with 

iiz i President Clinton between December 11 th and December 19th 

1:: ! in which and President Clinton discussed Ms. Lewinsky. okay? 

‘)_i First of all, did you have an 

::;iwith President Clinton prior to the 191 X 

other conversations 

when you learned 

;-;labout the subooena. with President Clinton in which 

i 5 4 i Ms. Lew/nsky’was referred to at all? 

Page 82 

il! A The one conversation I had was the conversation 

: 2 1 where I said that I had seen Ms. Lewinsky. that Betty had 

j 3 1 asked me to call Ms. Lewinsk 

r 

And, here a 

9 

ain, as I said to 

i 4 lyou before, he said to me tha he knew abou her 

15lcrrcumstance. knew that she was unhappy in the White House, 

[ 61 that she did not want to go to the public sector, that sne 

(Tlwanted to ao to the private sector, and he thanked me for 

i e j helpmg her 

!91 Q 

[lo! A 

Were you the person who brought up Ms. Lewinsky? 

I did. 

ill! Q 

[121 A 

Why did you bring it up? 

You get a call from the Presidents secretary about 

[?~,a person in the White House, I brought it up as a ma3er of 

~14 ~course. I was not dealing wtth some treasonous maher or 

i: 5 1 some state secret and there was not,hng to hrde. lt was in 

;;;;the ordrnaz course of our conversation. 

Did the fact that rt was Ms. Cume, the 

: 18 1 President’s secretary, who called you about Ms. Lewnsky 

[~glrnake you think that the President might have sug 

[ :O 1 Ms. Currie, told her or anything along those lines. 9 

ested to 

o 

[~l~contact you about her? 

I221 A No, just logic would tell me that if the 

(2 3~ Presidents secretary called me about somebody tha: I would 

:24 Itell the President. I mean, I did not view this as a bp 

l25lthing and I did not know, obviously, what was coming. but it 

Page 84 

A 

iii not. The fact of the matter is that he did recoonize the 

I didn’t know whether he’d recognue the name or 

I~. 

[ 3 1 name. 

(43 0 Were you surprised that he recognized the name? 

15, A No. .-, 

f6: Q Why not? 

A 

i’sland I have - 

I’ve been around this president 2 very long time 

number one, he’s the best politruan I’ve ever 

I 9 I seen and he’s never seen a hand he didn’t want to shake and 

I ij j he’s never forgotten 2 name or a face, so it was not 

[ 111 surprising to me that he would have remembered this name. I 

[ 1: ~mean. he has an extraordinary memory. And so it was - I’m 

[ : 3 1 not here in a state of shock as a result of the fad that he 

[ 14 1 knew who she was and knew something about her circumstances 

[15ilt is in fact part of his nature. So at that point In time. 

r I 6 I it was in the ordinarv course of thinas and so there was 

j 1,; nothing here to cause me undue al%rn. 

IlSj BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q Do you know in any given year how many interns work 

/i%jin the White House? 

12:. 

[Xf 

A I do not. 

Q 

i?i! .--, A 

Do you even know a ballpark? 

I do not. 

Q Is it your understanding. regardless of what the 

if:inumber of interns are, that 2 high percentage of the Interns 

~._ _- ___~_ .~ 

Page 85 

! 1 !who work in the White House do deal directly with the 

(2 ! President? 

A I do not know and do not care to know about that 

I: i aspect of the operation. I mean, it’s just - it’s - I’m 

[ 51 interested in some details, that’s not one that I’m 

[ 6 1 interested In. 

Q Now, you indicated to us earlier that the President 

Iiiobviously appeared to know about Monrca Lewinsky. namely, who 

[g!she was, that she had worked there - 

[lOI A And about her urcumstance in terms of job search. 

IIll Q And that’s what I was goin to ask you. When you 

[ ~rlspoke to the President on that occasion, 

[ 13 1 know that ou were assisting Ms. Lewinsky in 

1141 x 

‘d “s$g$a; $b? 

I do not know the answer to tha He was not 

[ I 5 1 surprised that I had gotten a call. Whether he had prior 

116 1 knowledge of it I do not know, but he would not be surprised 

[ 17 Ithat I was helping anybody because he knows that if I 

I I 8 1cal1 from over there, or a call from anyone. that I try to 8zt2 

ilgjhelpful. 

Q So there was nothing about the conversation from 

I:: i your standpoint that indicated to you one way or the other 

[z? 1 

R 

nor to your telling him that you were involved in helping 

1231 r get a job. 

124: A That is correct. 

125i Q Did he indicate anything to you about a timeframe 

Page 80 to Page 85 
1714 

BSA Vernon Jordan, 33198 XMAX(l5) 

Page 86 

: withrn which she was tryln 

-:,wondenng if you thought s 3, 

to get a job or that he was 

A 

e’d get a lob? 

: He essenbally expressed thanks for helpin her. 

. Q So IS the answer to my questron, no, he dr 

-;i indicate anvthrna about a timeframe? 

J n’t 

;‘ 

- A Exactly. 

Q Oka Now, back to the several calls with Ms. 

i.Lewinskv between ty he 11th and the 15Jth. Can vou aooroximate 

i :sithat, too, is not unusual. 

..z, Q All rioht. Well. lets focus on that. I mean. 

ifs i is it 

1 

our conclusion-mat to some degree she was pestering 

:::;you. _^^. A 

is;;because she couldn? have pes ere 

I think “pestering” ispbably too biq a word 

me rf I had no taken her 

1:~ Itelephone calls. but I took the telephone calls. But her 

::slsense of urgency, when is this going to happen, and I said, 

Page 87 

: : J “You know, the process takes time. It is ongoing.” And I 

.q~think I said to her something I learned in Sunday school, 

ijl”‘Thern that wait upon the Lord, shall renew therr strength.’ 

-.I ~SO, you know, cool it, take your time. Them that wait.’ I’m 

is ~certarn I said that to her. I say it all the time. And I’m 

‘~1 not sure she fullv understood d or appreciated it. And it 

i; jwas slight1 

t; 

incohvenrencing and sli htly annoying, yes. 

Drd you take any furt 3, er actron as a result of the 

: 4 i calls that you kept getting from her between the 11 th and the 

..-ilQth? _~. ._.... 

. : A There was no need to take an 

1;; because I understand the process. She had Y o take a test at 

further action 

:3jBurson-Marsteller and she called and she says, “I’ve ot to 

: 4 ; take some test.” And I said, ‘That IS how you get a 10 .% at 

:j]Burson-Marsteller and so you have to take the test.’ _1 _c. Q Did she seem - 

.-. 

Is ione of mythildren when the 

There were times when I thought I was talking to 

Q 

it/expressed 

Do you feel Ii K 

were at that age. 

e In looktng back at it that she 

some sort of-what could be considered a naivete 

/I: j about the way thinqs work? ,_“. A She s young,, she’s not fully understanding, 

: z; i certainly of the rooesses In the private sector. 

.:q 1 Inexpenenced. Raive to some extent. ._:! 

-_. Q Now, you indicated to us that as of the time when 

Page 88 

: : 1 you first made the calls to the peo 

;; !drscussed around the 1 lth, as oft 

companies we’ve 

ou hadn’t done 

‘3lany inquiry into Ms. Lewinsky’s backgroun or work 

:4 1 qualifications. corm&? 

A Yes. Because I don’t do that. I took the resume 

i Zion face value. I took Betty Curries call on face value. I 

:-jam not the employer here and so checking references and 

: 9 1 backgrounds and what have you was not my responsibility 

: 91 because I have every confidence in the companies that I call 

: :J 1 that before they hired her that they would do whatever they 

::: lneeded to do to satisfy themselves that this person, whomever 

;X Ithat person is, would meet their standards for employment. 

: : 3 1 So there was no need for me to do that. 

Q Did 

i$ithrough 191h pen ,ody 

ou at any time during this December 11 th 

when she kept calling you begin to think 

: : 6 1 that her persistence. in fact, bordering on annoyance in 

: : 7 1 calling you, was a n ative trait? 

A No. zT o. Because I’ve seen that same trait in very 

i :ij mature, successful, well paid individuals. 

Q Other than the initial calls you had with the 

I:!lrepresentatives of Young & Rubicam, Amencan Express and 

::I iM&-rdrews 8 Forbes that 

4 

ou have told us about, did you have 

:?31an 

::J ]be KY 

further discussions wrt anyone at an 

een the 1 lth and the 19th about Ms. 1 

of those companies 

ewrnsky? 

.-‘i. .--1 A I certainly did not at Young 8 Rubicam. At some 

OlCStarr 

Page 89 

Ursre Fairbum at Amencan Express called and sard. 

e’ve rnter-vtewed her and there IS nothtng here for her ” 

Q So there would have been one addrtlonal call with 

[~JMs. Farbum 

(5: A Made by her, not by me 

16i Q Oka _ _ 

A And Y 

/i {whether it was before Christmas or after Christmas. but at 

don’t know exactly when that took place, 

119i 

1201 

$ TShy;;re no notes taken. 

[Ill A Byine. 

[221 Q Did you discuss at any time - not the people at 

[33]the companies you called and not Ms. Lewinsk 

~24 lfor example, when ly 

but drd you - 

[zsldid you indicate to K. 

ou spoke with President C rnton about her, 

rm that she was bordering on annoyance 

[ 11 or words to that effect - 

Page 90 

I?1 

[31 “a I did about not. her consistently calling you? 

I41 A 60. No. I did not. 

IiiMs. 

Q 

Lewinsk 

Dii you have any discussions with Ms. Currie about 

[7]originally cal &! 

up to the 191h other than the one when she 

d ou? 

A Y%.s. 1: iBetty. “She IS in a hurry,” or somethin I think at some point I may have said to 

[lolclear that Betty was aware of that an dg 

And its very 

she said somethtng to 

: 111 the effect, Yes, I know.” When that conversation took 

[I? I 

P 

lace, how )ong the conversation lasted - but I am certain 

[13] hat I said to Betty that this young lady is in a hurry. 

i14; Q Drd Betty make any comment in response to that? 

!15! A Oh, I think - if I remember correctly, Betty 

116lacknowledged her - because I think that she was bugging 

i 17 1 Betty as she was sort of bugging me. 

;1s1 Q And what do you base the thought that she was 

I 191 bugging Betty the same way she was bugging 

A 

izyishe had asked Be 

Based on the fact that she was b uggrng me and that 

ou? 

i2?] Q Did%%y%yynythinq to you that indicated that 

[:31Ms. Lewinsky had been bu 

A 7 

grng her. 

i241 

~zs~circumstance. 

No. She JUS seemed to have understood my 

Page 91 

[II 

I?1 

I31 

Q She didn’t sound surprised. 

A 

Q 

No, she did not. 

She didn’t express any surprise at all. 

I41 A No. 

[5! Q Okay. So we’ve got the conversation with Ms. 

[ 6~h~ie in early December and now we have at least one 

[? 1 conversation some time after that but do you believe it was 

[ 8 I before you learned about the subpoena to Ms. Lewinsky? 

I91 A Which conversation are you talking about? 

IlOl Q The one with Ms. Currie that you just told us 

Oh, yes. I’m sure it was before the 1% 

This conversation with Ms. Currie. were you 

her or in person? 

I’m sure it was on the telephone. 

Would you have called her or would she have called 

i:iiother than Monica Lewinsk 

Did you speak with her about anything in that call 

and the job effort? 

izf i Lewinsky. 

A I doubt that 7 caked her specifically about Monica 

tf I called her and told her about that, rt was in 

fz3lthe context of another call. A ‘by the wa .‘I 

Q Do you think that she mrg -K t have called you 

~~~~specifically to follow up on Monica Lewinsky? 

__~____ _ _~ 

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1715 

BSA Vernon Jordan, 313198 XMAXl16) ~~~ ~. _ .___._ .~~ -.-__- __~ .____ 

Page 92 

A No, I don’t. .^ Q Did you take any notes of thus aspect of your 

;; I conversation with her? Anything about Monrca Lewrnsky? 

.:. A No notes _ - 

r: Q Now, drd Ms. Lewinsky ever give you an hrng or 

;iitell you any thoughts that she had about what the Pres.1 .s ent 

; 7 j should or shouldn’t do in the Paula Jones case, setbement 

r 3 Jversus not settling? 

:9: A Not before the 191h. 

.:z. Q 

!I:;but rt was after the 

Okay. So there was a time that that was discussed 

91h? 

A Up until the 19th. the only conversatjons that I 

.I<: had with Ms. Lewinsky had only to do wrth her search for 

:;4 Iemployment in the private sector in New York C 

:l5: Q Okay. Well. let’s get to the lgth. % t en. So tell 

: : 6 I us about - what happened on the 191h to make J ou aware that 

: 1~ jshe might be a witness in the Paula Jones case. 

“5’ 

ifsit& A hone, 

:~3ithe b 

sayrng that she had 

She called me u~n$@sa&wc$i;gs;;$na in 

aula Jones case. And I was somewhat taken aback by 

: 21 jthat. She was ve 

79 r 2 2 I come to my ofhce 

upset. And I sard to her. Why don’t you 

And she came to my office. And she .-~, 

:23jwas- _ 

"4: Q Let me just stop you because lets focus on the 

::5jphone call first. Where were you? You were at your office? 

Page 93 

,. .*: A I was at my office. 

:2: 

i3jbeen? 

Q And do you know what time of day it would have 

c4; A I think morning. 

:5j Q Okay. So tell us as best you can exactly what she 

: : - ! subpoena to do what?’ And obviously she told me that it was 

: s: to become a witness in the Paula Jones case. 

::>: Q 

122: A 

What was your reaction to that? 

M reactron was that she had a problem. 

._. : .-*, Q VI&h,? 

._^. A I think just based on my own experience. any time 

‘zi;you get a subpoena from a prosecutor, you’ve got a problem. 

Q Well, the Paula Jones case didn t involve 

: ii 1 prosecuton, did it7 

Page 94 

., 

i{ : time you 

A A subpoena is a subpoena. it’s a civil case. Any 

9 

et a subpoena, civil case or criminal case. I think 

: 3 !you’ve go a problem. 

:4 Q Did you 

! 5 j anythrng substantive? tI 

uestion her at all on the phone about 

amely. asking her any questrons to 

! 6 1 ascartarn why she m’ ht be subpoenaed in the case? 

‘7‘ 8 

: 

A 

Q 

I aske her to come to my office. 

So on the telephone call, there was nothing of a 

i zisubstantive nature? Is that fair to say? 

That’s fair to say. 

So other than her indicatin ou the fact of the 

Page 95 

A There was no antrcr 

-f ,rntem had anythin to do wrth the 

.:.wrth the Paula Jor!scase ’ 

anon on my part that thus 

aula Jones case And I 

‘5. had not reason to elteve that she would have anythtng to do 

II*: Q If Ms. Cume had had an 

[ : I : Ms. Lewinsky could be a wetness In the b 

basis to believe that 

aula Jones case. 

!::,would you have ex 

A Pe 

cted Ms. Cume to tell you that7 

!13: I be ieve that had Ms. Curne known that that she 

i14jwould have told me. 

115: 0 Let me ask the question agarn. though. Would you 

i .~~. 161 have exoected her to tell vou if she knew. 

F,‘- 

;I$; 

’ A Yes. Sure: 

Q If the President had any reason to believe that 

:! 9 I&. Lewinskv could be called as a wrtness in the Paula Jones 

rzolcase. would you have ex cted him to tell you that when you 

[:I jspoke with him between p” he 11 th and the 19th about her? 

[i21 A And I think he would have. 

1231 Q 

[?4 !to? 

So is the answer yes, you would have expected him 

125? A Yes. Sure. 

Page 96 

0 And if Ms. Lewinsk 

r 

had any reason to believe that 

Iiishe might have been a witness in he Paula Jones case, would 

: 31 you have ype&& her to tell you that? 

id’ _.. 

!S: a c-i? 

A I think that if she were coming to me for a job, 

i:jfor job help, and she suspected that this was -the Paula 

~8; Jones case was a problem, I ‘ust think as a matter of 

: .~. 9i ooenness . and full disclosure I hat she would have done that. 

Q 

!iyiMs. Lewinsk 

And when I said why. I’m not just lrmrtrng rt to 

i :t i Ms. Cunie 

A 

&esident Clinton - 

but why would you expect any of them, 

i13' I don’t see any reason why they would not have told 

114 i me that. 

: :;!disclosure, wh 

: 19 1 disclosure? 

A I didn’t say I should have been told. I think that 

i :fi I would have expected to have been told. And I just think it 

:X !would have been in the ordinary course of things to say that. 

!‘?I 0 WhvPage 97 

A You’re asking me a h pathetical to which - the 

iiifact is that I didn’t know it and the &d;dn’t tell me. And 

[ 3 Iwhen I found out about it. it was o v~ously a problem and I 

14 !tried to be helpful in that circumstance. 

0 Why would it make a difference to you in terms of 

I ‘, i evaluating what, if anything 

i7 1 Lewinsky if you had known ,z s 

ou were going to do for Ms. 

e - 

j “, i known 

A Well I don’t know what I would have done had I 

but the fact ‘of the matter is that 

,;o, had it been me. I would have done it, 

I ‘ust think that 

ha d I been sittino 

i 11 j where she was sitting. 

[I:; Q And ou would have liked to have known if anyone 

: .--. 13 Ihad that knowledae ‘6, forehand. 

!141 A 

Q 

I tfiink it may have been helpful. 

I151 So that’s a yes, correct? 

l16i A Yes. 

Q Now, as far as the conversation you had on the 

iii j phone with her on the 19th. were there any notes or any 

[ 19 1 records taken during that conversation by you? 

[ZOI A The answer to that is no. 

Q Do you have any reason to believe anybody else, Ms. 

iziilewinsky. would have taken any notes? 

I?31 A I don’t know what Ms. Lewinsky was doing. 

MR. BIENERT: Ma’am, I just wanted to ask you, I 

[::idon’t know what time you want to break. 

__. -~ __- .~ 

Page 92 to Page 97 

_____ 

OlCStarr 
1716 

BSA Vernon Jordan, 3l3198 XMAX(17) ___._ 

Page 98 

.1. 

I-;is here 

MR. WISENBERG: I’m going to chea to see if IUCC? 

,-. 

i31 

‘4i 

THE FOREPERSON: Okay 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

i5; Q Now, ,in terms of - did 

I 6 1 your offtoe;t a certam time on the 19t t 

ou schedur her to come by 

7 

I scheduled to her come to my office d was our 

Iiisecond rneetmg, and I don’t know what time she came, but I 

! 9 ldid ask her to come by. 

llCl Q Okay. To 

! I I I records thit would reflect 1 

our knowledge, would tnere be any 

he fact of her comrng by? 

:?z?i It may not be there because - rt may or may not be 

[ 131 there. and I don’t have my calendar, but my note says that 

t;4!she was there and because it was not an appointment and it 

[ : 5 jwas done quickly, it may not have been written In %e book, I 

[I 6 I may have just said to the two people wdh whom I work that 

[ 17 1 Ms. Lewinsky is coming at whatever time she came 

i izi have 

Q 

been 

So first of all when you refer to it may or may not 

in the calendar, is it accurate that once again 

[zolthis IS the main document that you would expect to reflect 

12: 1 meetmgs you have with 

A 

pea le. 

Right. But if P 

including Ms. Lewmsky? 

I221 

rzslclients show up 

may say, there are trmes when 

*8 

artners show up, fnends show up. and it’s 

[24 ]SpOntaneOuS an therefore an ent is not made. And I cannot 

;zjjtell you whether or not on the 191h r here rs an entry made in 

Page 99 

[ 11 my calendar that Monica Lewinsky came. I can tell you that 

:?lshe came on the 19th. 

[31 0 And you said a moment ago that your note reftec%s 

14 Ithat she aAm’. What note are ou refemng to? 

i51 That s a mtsquo r e. Stnke that. A note - 

!6! Q 

: 7 I clarifv that. 

And I may have misheard, that’s why I wanted to 

iaj - A 

[ 91 Ms. Lewinsky. 

I have no notes written by my hand anywhere about 

Cl When she came and met with you on the 19th. I 

i :: i assume yoAu mye;t, in your private office at Aktn Gump. 

1;23 

(‘-31 Q Was anyone else present when she came? 

i14! A Just us. 

:I51 Q 

!16j 

Just the two of YOU. 

A Yes. 

‘.?i Q In between getting off the telephone with her on 

11s 7 the 191h and her actually coming and meeting wdh you on the 

! 19; 19th. did y;u s 

I?c)l f?? 

ak wrth anyone about Monica Lewnsky at all? 

on t think so. 

;111 Q Didn’t make any calls or attempts to contact, for 

i 2 11 example, ytty Currie? 

!I?jl No. 

1241 Q 

::5: A 

;&the President about it? 

Page 100 

Cl! 0 And wh not? 

;z: A I wante J to see Monica Lewinsk 

; 3 ; see anybody else at the time. She had the pro 8 

I didn’t want to 

lem. 

id! 0 All ri ht. So Ms. Lewinsky comes to your office. 

1s i You and she meet P ace to face. How long would you say that 

c 6 j you met? 

!71 A It was a disturbing meeting from man 

[s 1 actually. She was ve 

[s!she was - she was - x 

upset about the subpoena. H 

;;cas 

er focus was different. When I had - 

I lolseen her the first time, her focus had been the job This 

I 111 bme. her focus was the subpoena, her focus was herself, and 

[ :? 1 her focus was the President. 

1131 0 Oka 

[ I 4 ; say that you met w x h 

First of all. once again, how long would you 

[I51 A 

her in your office on the 1 gth? 

Q 

Forty-five minutes maybe. I don’t know. 

I161 

I 17 !the 

And I think you answered this in retatron to one of 

uestions a moment a 

[IB lall w 9, en you met with her w 

o, but you didn’t take any notes at 

1191 A 

at day? 

Q 

I did not take any notes. 

I201 When you typically meet with clients or when you 

[ZI jmeet with new clients or people about new matters. do you 

ix 1 normally take notes? 

I231 A Depends. 

1241 Q What’s it depend on? 

I-‘51 A Well, it depends upon whether I have an associate 

Page 101 

:‘or partner there to take the notes for me. It depends upon 

.I ,whether it’s a srtuatron that I think I should take notes 

: ~.Sometimes I understand thongs easily and qutckly. I am not 

: basrcally a note taker. 

.- Q 

A 

Okay Was there any reason why you dtdn’t - 

i’: not a client. 

And, by the way, if I ma 

Y 

say. Momca Lewrnsky was 

‘i- Q 

I want to make that very c ear. 

Did you even focus enough on that Issue. do you 

j i’believe, between the phone call and when she came to see you. 

: : :. to where you’d even made a conclusron in your mend as to 

: :: !whether she would become a client or was that something you 

: 1: 1 focused on? 

.. 2‘ _--. A There was never any questron that Monica Lewinsky 

: 1; :was not gomg to be a clrent of mine under any set of 

: : 5 j ctrcumstances. 

::i: Q 

A 

Why was that? 

I don’t do that kind of business. I represent 

i is i companies. I don’t represent Individuals. I’m a corporate 

: : 3 I tawyer, as I said to you earlier, so I don’! represent 

:zz !indrviduals and I certainty don’t represent indivtduals who 

!_‘: 1 have otten subpoenas In civil cases. That’s not what I do. 

;ff!Frn nc! a trial la er. 

0 %ay. Why didn’t you have anyone etse attend the 

i Iii meeting with Ms. Lewinsky? Is there any reason? 

i’s: A Ms. Lewtnsky was not a client. Why would I call in 

Page 102 

: : 1 a artner or an associate to meet with a Betty Currie 

:_‘I re P erral? No need for that. Had it been XYZ Company with a 

:,;problem, that ma have been a different matter. 

L4j Q Okay. And so the reason you didn’t have anyor 

:s:there is because you didn’t view her as a client and your 

I E: normal pracbce is to do that when the persons you’re meeting 

: 7 I wtth relate to client work. 

7e in 

.. i’ 

.--. 

:::: 

.,:. _-i 

~[$;~all. did she have the subpoena with her? 

::j: Q Did she give you a copy? 

r.-. 

.- A No. 

..:. 

.-__ 0 Did she show it to vou? 

::3: A Sh ~_^. 

.--_ Q WI 

: r:: ; her during that meet ._“. 

_--, A Well, .._. _..._.._.._. _ .“._ _._ 

:rj:dishevelment and she was quite upset Sh 

;;4 :was - she was hi hly emotional to sa 

.-:. 

_--. Q Wt?at was your reactior 

e did. 

iat would be the first thing you addressed with 

:ing? 

her pmntinnal ctate wqs obviously one of 

,. _..e was crying. She 

y the least. 

1 to that? Were you surpnsed 

Page 103 

: I : at how emotional she was? 

._. 

a-., A Well, I assumed that much of it was fear and then 

: 3 1 rt was clear that there was more than that. 

!4: Q Okay. Well, let’s take the first assum 

[ 5! Now, I realize you’re making assumptions here, but, ! 

tion. fear. 

rst of 

I 6 I all, had you ever had, in the last ten years, had you had 

: 2 J an one 

i 5 1 Su !x 

come to you rn that emottonal state over getting a 

poena? 

15; A Counsellor. people do not come to me in the 

: : 3 : practice of law with subpoenas. 

!:I: Q So does that mean the answer is no? 

r.7: .-LI A Ask the question again. People don’t come - 

::3; Q Let me ask you the question again, sir. 

“4‘ .- I A All right. :.i. 

.--_ Q In the last ten years, have you had anyone come to 

: I 6 ] you in that emotional state over getting a subpoena? 

:::j A The answer to that is no. 

ilB! 0 Now, did she show you the subpoena right off the 

:: 3: bat or did you discuss other topics other than her emobonal 

: 2 3 1 state? 

tz11 A She showed me the subpoena as soon as she came i 

,7^. 8--l 0 

i23: A 

Okay. Did you read the subpoena? 

Looked at it. 

::41 MR. BIENERT: And, just for the record, I’m 

: 2 5 1 assuming they’ll let us know when your lunch is here? 

OlCStatT Page 98 to Page 103 
ICA __^ 

Page 104 

Vernon Jordan. 313198 ‘IYIII111 --.---.-.-, 

Page 107 

ii I check on the situation. 

And, Madam F orqerso?. if it’s all 

;suSrnd;y we’ll keep gotng u.ntll - 

Keep gorng until lunch IS here. 

_unch is here. 

IN: Well, why don’t we hold this until 

t i z; after lunch? I’m sure all of us - 

IX; MR. BIENERT: That would be fine. 

;:z: THE FOREPERSON: - could enjoy an hour - one hour 

i’ 

.-. THE FOREPERSON: 

:-i 

.-, MR. BIENERT: 

MR. WISENBERG: 

;13]frOm now. 

[14i MR. BIENERT: Return when, Madam Fore rson? 

1151 THE FOREPERSON: Well, to be on the sa ee. e sde. 

[ 16 1 stnce we are habitual1 late not one stroke after 150. 

1:7. MR. BIENE&T: ’ And. Madam Foreoerson. if I can iust 

i;gjsay something on the record thai I want to confirm with ’ 

[ 191Mr. Jordan, on the topic we discussed before the break about 

L-l3 1 any documents relating to other persons that you had 

(211 place at any of the companies you referred to earlier, I 

helped 

i21 Iconferred with your counsel and they indicated to me they 

~~3~would get us an 

I241 Is tha r 

paperwork on that by Thursday. 

our understanding, sir? 

I251 THE dTNESS: I did not have a subsequent 

Page 105 

111 conversation with counsel after you talked to them. Whatever 

i 2 lyou work out with counsel is fine with me. 

MR. BIENERT: And then I would only ask that you 

1: i’ust confirm if that’s accurate because then we can say on 

151 he record it’s confirmed 

THE WITNESS: 

176ilawyer? I think lawvers ouaht to work thmas out. I would 

Why don‘t you work it out with my 

1 a j not-do your businejs with r?iy counsel. - 

19) MR. BIENERT: 

[lolthe break. 

Okay. Well, we’ll address that after 

II:1 THE WITNESS: All right. 

[::: THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 

1131 

:id;taken.) 

(Whereupon, at 12:48 p.m., a luncheon recess was 

;231 IZ3j A Right. _ 

(14; 1243 0 So then in trymg to bracket the time of your 

:25i [~5]conversation wtih President Clinton about Ms. Lewinsky. the 

_ 

Page 106 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

/iiWhereupon (154 p.m.) 

:3i ViZRNON E. JORDAN. JR. 

i 4 j was recalled as a witness and, after havin 

[ 5 1 dut sworn by the Foreg rson of the Gran 8 

been previously 

r61an testfied urther as Ilows: 

Jury, was examined 

.-. 

I71 

,*il 

,“I _ ._.. . -. _. __. . . 

Q Focusing again on the timeframe December 1 lth to 

; i ii December 19th that we were discussin before lunch, if I 

i i 11 understand it correctly, you were out o P the country 

i 12 1 approximately December 12th through December 17th? That 

[ 131 would be the tri to Europe and Dallas? 

1141 A fright. 

Q So then the many conversations that you indicated 

i: z i to us that you had with Ms. Lewmsky when she was calling and 

~17jpestering. did all of those occur white you were in your 

[ 1 a 1 office here in Washington? 

:191 A Right. 

[?Ol Q So does that then mean - 

1211 A I did not talk to her from overseas. 

[??I Cl Okay. And then - so to the d ree that there were 

[z3lnumerous conversations with her, they would e! ave all been on 

124 1 the 12th pnor to 

[?s117th and the 191 I! 

our leaving and then somewhere between the 

when she called on the subpoena? 

Page 104 to Page 109 

/ A Yes. 

.- Q Which I assume then that would be me-z -eason why 

; i i it was persrste-1. I think is one of the words you used - 

; 4 : term of m;ny calls In a very short timeframe’ 

._. 3: 

i6: 

I have to assume that. 

Q Is there any other - let me back up Dc you talk 

i 7 i to her at all from the trme you left Washlnpton on the :r= 

: a I to the tme you returned? _ 

191 A No. No. I did not. I did not have a cor.ooatlon 

rlolwhile I was abroad wdh Ms. Lewmsk 

Il:i 0 And dd you talk with b etty Cume at ali- 

:12. 

r13; 

A Not from-abroad. No. . 

Q So the conversatton you had with Ms. C-me about 

I 14 1 Ms. Lewmiky would have been - 

(151 Before I left town. Sure. 

[lEI 0 Which makes it - either before ou lef: :CLN~, 

:17]which would be only the 11th to the 12th, or be L een t-e 17th 

[Island the 19th? 

!191 A Yes. I think if you check my records abcG7 my 

rzolleaving town. I left on an evening fli 

? 

ht non-stop to Loncon. 

[?11l think. on Thursday night, so I wou d have been in my office 

r:z]all day. 

[I31 Q During the day. And that’s Thursday. )ooccmg 

~24 iagain - Thursday was on the 1 lth. Okay. So then YOU would 

[zslhave left town the same day that you met with Ms. Lwnsky 

Page 108 

[ 1 land the same day that you made the first calls to the people 

[ 2 I in New York. 

I31 A Well, I don’t know. 

0 

I li front of me that in&des December of ‘1997 and Decemoer 1 lth 

And just for the record I’ve got a calendar In 

I was not abroad when I talked to the Presdent. so 

iii i I was in my office in Washin ton or some place. I was not 

[ 13iabroad. I did not talk to the k resident from Rome. I scent 

Page 109 

I 1 Iwindow - 

[:I A R had to have been on the 1 lth before I went to 

[ 3 1 Rome. 

0 Do ou remember an 

I :; the President abou r hln else that ou talked to 

In that conversa ?‘I ion o her than t ze 

[ 6 1 Monica Lewmsky matter? 

171 A I’m certain that we talked about my efforz to 

rsuade Ersklne Bowles to remain in the government He was 

191 he Chtef of Staff. There was some talk that he was goq to 

[aipe 

[ 1olleave. And one of my informal assignments was to pesuade 

[ 111 him that he should stay. And I was successful at that. But 

[1zlthat took many conversations and I was back and forth wrth 

rl3lthe President about that. What else we talked about, I don’t 

[ 14 1 know. It c@d have been many things, but I did talk to ban 

[ 1s 1 about Monica Lewinsky. 

Q You made reference earlier to the fact that you 

I:76;recall from her resume or otherwise ou knew that Ms. 

11 a 1 Lewinsky had been an intern at the kite House. Did you know 

I 191that she ever worked in Leaislative Affairs at the White 

i;ojHouse? 

A I have some vague recollection that is a part - 

iz:lyes, I mean, yes, I think so. 

if.?ithat time? 

0 And do you think you would have known that as of 

[251 A tt was also on her resume. I mean, I have some 

oicstarr 
BSA Vernon Jordan. 313199 

1. recollection of that. .^ Cl Now, when she came to you or called ou on the 19th 

i:on the Paula Jones matter, rough1 

X 

r;- 

: 4 : call was? This is the one where s 

how long do you t Ink that 

,i:you she had been subpoenaed. 

e was very upset and told 

.;. A I don’t know how long it was. counsel. I cannot 

‘l:tell you. It was sufficiently disturbin that 1 sug ested to 

:: T her that she come into the office. Hg 9 

I< i mean, I cannot for the life of me tell 

ow long tha took, I 

..~. Q 

iIy.been a call that would have laste 

’ 1: IThIs was not a 20 or 30-minute call? 

A I don’t think it was a long call. She was 

ii::obviously upset. She was obvious1 crying. And I thou ht 

-I 5 :one wav to deal with that was to as 5: her to come in an c? 

i:z:that’s what I did. 

:I?: Q Now, you knew then that she had been subpoenaed in 

.1 CI .the Paula Jones case. Let’s talk a little bit about the 

:I;;Paula Jones case. What’s your understanding of what that 

i I ? j case is about? 

.,1. A My understanding is that her case is about a former 

iii istate employee suing the then-governor of Arkansas for sexual 

:z3:harassment. 

:24. Q Oka 

r 

And how long ago did 

;25]underStanding that hat IS what that case is a zl 

ou develop the 

out? 

Page 111 

i1: A Because I read the newspapers. 

0 No. my question is how long ago. This isn’t 

i:];something you ‘ust learned in the last few weeks is it? 

A /learned about it when the gene&l American public 

i 1 i learned about it through the same medium, and that was the 

iiinewspaper and’the television. 

,_. Q So at the time when Ms. Lewinsky would have 

;~:contacted you, December 19th, about her being subpoenaed, you 

! 41 had some understandlng of what that case Involved, the Paula 

; ;: 1 Jones case. 

.--. A 

Q 

Yes. I had some undentanding, -yes. 

..7- And did you have an understandlng that at least the 

! :j’ allegation in that case by Ms. Jones revolves around some 

: :J facts relatin 

: 13: overture to ;1 

to whether or not the President made an 

er for a sex act? 

. -. ._5 A 

Q 

I am aware that the charge was sexual harassment. 

My question to you, sir, IS were you aware as of 

::F jDecember 19th that in particular what Ms. Jones was alleging 

: : K+: was that the President asked her to perform a sex act with 

:ro:hlm? 

A You know the details of the Paula Jones case, 

:~~zcounsel, have never particularly interested me, so as to what 

‘- ;.the corn laint said in the Paula Jones case, I cannot tell ou 

‘I;:that. W P at I know about the Paula Jones case I learned Y rom 

:zj.the television, I learned from the newspapers, and SO my 

Page 112 

: :. knowled e of the Paula Jones case is that of a layman. It’s 

::.a genera 9. Interest in the Paula Jones case period, based on 

: 3.what I read in the newspapen. 

Q Let me ask 

i z -did you have an 

ou a third time. As of December 19th. 

understan 8. Ing that Ms. Jones was allegln 9 [e.that the President asked her to perform a sex act with him. 

._- A I think it’s fair to say that I read that in the 

i 3: newspapers. To the extent that I remember exadly what the 

:+-charges were, I’m not going to say that I did that. 

Q And let me say to you, I really don’t want to have 

li::to get into the specific charges in detail, which is why I’m 

i ;i : trying to ask in a more broad way, namely, did 

; 13; undentanding that it involved an allegation tha r 

ou have an 

he asked 

: : J : her to perform a sex act. 

A And I am prepared to say to you that my 

:;;:undentanding of this Paula Jones case as a eneral matter is 

i:y:that it 15 a case of sexual harassment. Pen J 

Q 

iii j harassment? 

And what is your understanding of sexual 

.*;: A That the President alle edly asked a state trooper 

i?: :to bring her to some room at the Exce 9- slor Hotel. 

._1^ 

:I j alleged 

Q 

he did? 

Did you have any further understanding of what she 

I-‘?: A Yes. I think it’s safe to say that I am aware that 

: 2 5 j allegedly the President made some request. 

____ -- 

OlCStarr 

XMAX(19) 

Page 113 

:i: Q That she perform a sex act 

,-. &- A Yes, I guess. 

Q Well, you can use other words, if you prefer. I 

ti idon’t want to put words In your mouth. 

‘5, 

.-. A Well, I’m not going to let you put words tn your 

[ 6 1 mouth. 

c71 Q That’s why I’m asking. sir. 

131 A Yes. Sure. Sex act 

191 .-a Q Is that ves? 

[lo; A Yes, th&‘s yes. 

il?! Cl 

I 12 119th, 

Now, what conversations, if any. as of December 

[13!about s 

oing back in time. had ou had with President Clinton 

he allegations against l? Irn in the Paula Jones case? 

A I have not discussed the Paula Jones case in terms 

i::iof its factual context with the President of the Untted 

rlsi.States. 

0 Okay. And by that I assume you mean you’ve had n 

i:ijsubstantive discussions with him about what happened, if 

[lglanything. 

1201 .--, A That is tiaht. 

0 Have you’ ever been present when an 

Ifi idiscussion with the President about any facts of the J 

one else had a 

aula 

[ 2 3 J Jones case? 

1241 A No. 

1151 Q Have you had any discussions about the alleged 

_______ 

Page 114 

A That is correct. 

Q Whether they work in the White House or not. 

A That’s ri ht. 

Q Now, in 4 erms of - 

Page 115 

111 A If I may, here again, I am not a lawyer in the 

[‘I Paula Jones case. I do not represent an 

[ 3 1 having to do with the Paula Jones Sexua r 

interest or person 

harassment case. 

I4! Q Okay. Have you ever seen any documents other tha 

i 5) things you’ve read in the newspaper that you’ve described, 

[ 6 1 have you ever seen any documents that were related to the 

i 7 1 Paula Jones case? 

[91 A I saw the subpoena that Monica Lewinsky showed to 

(9lme. 

Q Okay. And we’ll come back to that later. Have you 

ii F i seen any other documents? 

il2i - A No. 

Q 

it: \ be it White House counsel or outside attomevs. have ever 

So neither the President nor any of his attorneys. 

i is jshown youAatiy{Fiiynts relating to that litihaiion, correct? 

1161 

I :i 1 

Q Habe you ever had any involvement in the 

[ 191 6

reparation of any documents prepared by someone else in the 

aula Jones case other than what may or may not have happened 

rzolwith Monica Lewinsky? We’ll talk about that. 

A I don’t know how to be more clear, counsel. by 

:I: isaying to you that I have not been involved in document 

1 z 3 1 production, I have not read any documen&. I have not been 

(14 lexposed to any documents having to do tih the Paula Jones 

12 51 case, in large part because I am not the lawyer. Robert 

__~_ ___ 

PagellOtoPagell5 
1719 

*CA Vernon Jordan, 313198 XuAxrzD) 

._ 

: 

L 

.:- 

._ 

-1 

.: 

. . 

- - 

.--. 

,.-. 

.-- 

Bennett is the lawyer. 

Q 

A 

Okay. Are you fin&red your answer? 

Q 

That s my answer. 

You indicated that you ma have had conversatrons 

not of a substantive nature but about whe Y her or not the 

President potentially should or shouldn’t settle that case. 

Who would you have had those conversations wtth? 

A I’ve had a conversatron with the President about 

R. I’ve had a conversation with Bob Bennett about it. 

Q Anyone else? 

A I’ve had a conversatron with Bruce Lindsey about 

rt. I’m certain I’ve had a conversahon with Erskine Bowles 

:::.about it. 

Q 

i ii -discussed that topic with. 

Okay. Anrone else that you think you would have 

‘.; A I’m sure that is not the entire list, but I cannot 

in an unofficial capacity? 

h okay. 

A Okay? My kids 

,-- 

.--. Q Anyone else? I - -. A .--. That’s about it, I think. 

.^ I Q Now, did you have any of these conversations about 

,I; .whether the President should or shouldn’t settle the Paula 

Page 117 

I : Jones case with any of the people you mentioned prior to the 

r-time that you learned Monica Lewrnsky could be a wttness In 

I : the Paula Jones case? 

. A 

; i Jones case Ion 

I’ve had conversations about settling the Paula 

before I ever heard the name Monica Lewinsky. 

.: Q %rd have you had conversations with these persons 

-‘about settling the case, or any of these persons, since 

:. 

.: Is 

ou’ve learned Monica Lewinsky wuki be a wetness in the 

aula Jones case? 

,--. A I have not. 

Q Did the fact that Monica Lewinsky could be a 

: :’ .witness in the Paula Jones case affect 

: !: jwhether or not the President should 

our opinion as to 

se x le the Paula Jones 

::;.taseT 

.. z. A I did not know until the 19th of December that 

: -Monica Lewinsky was in any way rnvolved at all in the Paula 

: f’ Jones case. I found out then when she showed me the subpoena 

‘1 I. or told me on the telephone that she had the subpoena to 

_. : appear in the Paula Jones case. 

.-- And so I had - so Monica Lewinsky or any 

:ff ‘drscussions about settjin 

l? 

were two different worlds until 

----the 19th. And when I tal ed to her on the 19th, I did not 

j I; talk to her about settlement, I talked to her about her 

- . problem. .-i. 

.:5 Q Okay. I understand that. My question, though, is 

Page 119 

: 1. Lindsey. Erskrne Bowles or any of those In which you have 

: I Imparted your opinion stnce December 19th7 

A I had lunch with Bruce Lrndsey on Sunday, the 18th 

i;. I belleve Sunday was the 18th. the day before the Martrn 

.i. Luther Krna holidav. 

(6. 

.- 

.,:. _--. 

[:_I- 

[:” 

[:f: 

r:s. 

you have a calendyer;hesr;3 

MR. BIENERT: 

MR. WISENBERG: That’s correct. 

MR. BIENERT: 

Monday. the 19th. 

The Martrn Luther King holiday 

THE WITNESS. I had lunch with Bruce Lindsey 

that dav and somewhere in the conversation. I said. “How 

are thirigs going with the Paula Jones case?” And he said, 

Things are 

settled.” An 3 

oing.” And I said”1 think rt should be 

that was my oprnron. 

I’ve not talked to him or anvbodv else smce that 

time about it, but that was my opiniori on the 18th of 

January, the da 

BY ML. BIENERT: 

before I knew about this subpoena. 

was 

I on 

on 

.~~. 

1::: Q You knew about the subpoena on - r-3, A December - no. I had a conversation with Bruce 

;,r i Lindsey in January. 

[z3: Q Yes. 

A And the Paula Jones case came up. And I said, “I 

i; t j think it should be settled.” 

Page 120 

I:: Q Right. I understand what you’re saying. 

._. 

,-_ A 

Q 

That’s all I’m saying. 

You’re saying that was the same opinion you had 

I i; prior to December 19th. 

;5: A My opinion has not been changed. 

!E: 0 Had you ever discussed with any of these attorneys 

: T : or the President or advisors to the President any terms that 

[ 5 J 

r 

ou thought should be part of the settlement, be it a dollar 

~4: erm or anr;other terms?, 

i-:: h No My vrew was not about terms. M vtew was 

~1: : about settlement. Period. And I was not in the nego ty ration 

!:I .of a settlement. I’m a street la 

[ : z ; so I’m just sayin 

er in that instance. and 

this is what I v?“x. t Ink. 

Zpafl. Q ?sttlement without any further elaborabon on your 

::G‘ A 

i : - : me. 

$700.000. two million. that was of no concern to 

I just thou ht it should be settled 

[Is: MR. %ENERT: 

:: s‘ Lewinsk 

All right. Lets get back to Monica 

r 

We were talking about the sub oena that she 

:: 2 -brought o vou on the 19th. 

j::iyou.- - 

I’m aoina _ _ to s r! rde this over to 

Do we have to show it to the court reporter? 

i iii I don’t know what’s best for her. 

:z; Basically, we’ve marked this Exhibit VJ-1 and then 

(2 5 : put the date of 313198. 

Page 118 

-a little different, sir. Prior to the 19th. if I understand 

‘I what you’re sa -. 

:‘an 

r 

hmg, whet 7l .’ 

mg Monica Lewinsky and her status in 

er it be the Paula Jones case or not, would 

4. no have affected in any way your view as to whether or not 

= -the President should or shouldn’t settle the Paula Jones 

i:case. Correct? 

A No, it would not. 

Q My question. sir, once you learned, from the 19th 

f i: to today, has Monica Lewinsky’s involvement or potential 

: : : : mvohrement in the Paula Jones case affected in an 

: 1: -vew as to whether the President should settle the 8 

way your 

aula 

: :I : Jones case? 

.-- A I thou ht it then, I think it now. 

. ,. .-3 Q You t l? ought what then and ou think what now? /- =~ A I thought rt before I ever me r her and subsequent 

i I:: to meeting her, it’s always been my opinion that the case 

: :- ‘should be settled. That is my opinron today. But I am not 

:I ?-the decisionmaker in that orocess. That is what it is. it’s 

: 1 s: an opinion. 

Q 

It’s a judgment. 

.__ I understand. And there have been times when you 

i z i. have shared that opinion with either the President or some of 

::I: the people you have mentioned, correct? 

‘-2 L-- A That is correct. 

._.. Q And is it your testimony that 

:f;ifurther discussions with the President, Bob i 

ou have not had any 

ennett, Bruce 

!_, 

Page 121 

(Grand Jurv Exhibit No. VJ-1 was 

marked for’identiication.) 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

And if you would o ahead and look at that’and tell 

an to be what Iul s. Lewinsky showed you 

[-‘ A It is. 

is’ 0 So tell us about it. You had indicated she was 

[ 3 i upset and that you had spoken to her. You may want to hold 

i : 3 1 onto that for a second for reference. And when she gave you 

[ :: : the subpoena, what did you do? 

I:-‘: A 

i i3ja lawyer.” 

I looked at it and I said to her, “I think you need 

jifjwith her7 

0 Did you discuss any of the terms of the subpoena 

116; A The terms? 

Q Anything printed on this pa 

triianything that a pears on these four pa 

Did you discuss 

A Pasked her if there had 

Iizisaid that there had been 

en any gifts and she 

ifts. It was clear to me that 

~2 1: there was more than fear % ere as a result of this document, 

[X !And the conversation increasingly demonstrated to me that 

1: 3: there was on the part of Ms. Lewrnsky a sort of - shall I 

1 z 4 i say - fascination,, that she was taken with the President and 

[ 2 5 1 it was - it was thus conversation, it was this - what I saw 

-__ ___________ 

Page 116 to Page 121 
XyAXlZl) 

1720 

Vernon Jordan, 313198 

- 

. 

: : ‘ana what I felt as I listened to her talk that - and as I 

: 2: looed at this, brought me to the pornt that I asked her 

; 3:drrectly had there been any sexual relabonshrp between s-e 

f 4 ; and the President. 

,C. And she sard that she had not had a sexual 

ii: relatronshrp with the President and I took her at her word cp 

‘7 j that And suggested to her that she needed a lawyer, talc 

i 8 I her that she should tell the truth and I told her that I 

jaiwould help her et a lawyer. 

cl R ow .I’ m assuming all of the thin 

i :Ei recounted occurred dunng the meeting on the 1 & 

s you ju5: 

h at your 

[:i:office 

[i3‘ A 

i14: Q 

The rneebng on the 19th. 

How long would you estimate that meehng was? 

::5: A I think about 45 minutes. 

Q Let’s break some of these down. First of a :. why 

i rt / is rt that you asked her whether or not there were any gifts 

i ; 8 j between she and the President? 

119: A 

;;oigifts. 

Well, because there’s a thing in here that says 

Q So you were alerted to that or what caused you to 

igiiask that question is because the document itself referred to 

r23lthem. 

A The doaJment. her demeanor and I pursued her and I 

~:~isald, “Tell me about your fnendship with the President.” 

Page 123 Page 126 

i ; 5: President. 

Q 

I iti our needin 

And when you said sexual relationships, ahd without 

;;5. 7 hat7 Were 7 

to be gra hit what did you mean when you said 

here any tmrtatrons on what you viewed sexiai 

p :. 

i 13 jrelations tibe? 

My vrew of it was sexual intercourse. Penod 

iiy:That’s my definition of sexual relations is sexual 

.2? 1 intercourse and that’s the context in which I asked the 

I : 3; question. 

Q So in your mind when you asked her if she had 

i:lisexual relations, you meant solely did she have sexual 

Page 124 

i 1; rntermurse with him? 

!:: A Yes. I meant sexual intercourse. Period. 

MR. WISENBERG: 

[ii I might not have heard correct1 

Let me interrupt for just a mrnute 

(51 BY MR. WlSENBERb: 

Q Mr. Jordan, I heard your answer, your orignal 

i ,“! answer to be that ou asked about sexual 

?- 

relationshi 

f B 1 sexual relations. just want to get a clarification for t 

1, not 

e 

(9! record. To the best of your knowledge did 

110 1 she had a sexual relationship or sexuai rela ! 

ou ask her if 

ions with the 

[ I I 1 President? 

[I?: A I cannot tell you whether I said relations or 

[ 13lrelationships. For me. they are no different. So if you 

114 1 would pin me down and say “Did you say relations or did you 

115 1 sa relationship?” I do not know which one it was, but I dd 

[ 16 1 as X whether or not there was sexual relations or a sexual 

~17!relationships. I don? know which, but that IS the question 

[ 18 jthat I asked and the answer that I got was no. 

(19; BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q Now, first of all, I want to t 

i:y j context up until that point. What was it - 

to get some of the 

rtym trying to 

;3: 1 understand what you totd us before and at times you’ve 

i 23 1 indicated you thought she was someone - it sounds like 

r:gipossibly with a crush on the President. Is that a fair 

I: 5 1 assessment? 

- __~ ~_ 

Page 125 

A Yes 

Q But on the other - yes. sir? 

; .- A The second time 

.4: Q The second time meaning7 

/i 

.-. A The second visrt. 

!6: Q Thus IS on the 191h. 

,.. A The 19th. 

le. Q Okay. 

:9: A Yes. 

:;i: Q No reason to think anything at all prior to that 

II.’ L--_ A That’s ri ht. 

.1_1. Q Okay. 8 n the 19th. But was there somethrng about 

):,$&at she said that made you wonder whether it was more than 

~14: 

1 

ust a crush - well. let me back u When we talk about the 

;:5‘ enn crush., does that - by your B efinition~, I don’t want to 

f :6jput words tn your mouth, Indicate a one-sided emotion? 

11-1 A Counsellor. the lady comes to me with a subpoena in 

i;sithe Paula Jones case that I know, as I have testified here 

::g)tocay. was about sexual harassment. 

So if a woman comes who has worked in the White 

izti House with a subpoena to participate or to be a witness in 

[t3 !a sexual harassment case and if there are tears and upset 

133;and all of that, I’ve been around a long time, I’m 62 years 

!34!oki. I have three daughters, I have a son, I have 

I3 5 1 daughter-in-laws. I know a little bit about people. 

And so it was not - you didn’t have to be Einstein 

j i 1 to know that that was a question that had to be asked by me 

t; 1 at mat particular time because heretofore this discussion 

[ 4 !was about a job. The subpoena changed the circumstances. 

0 And so one of the reasons that ou felt you needed 

i zi to ask her about whether there was a sexual re Y ahonshrp with 

i 7 1 the President is because you were drawing on what 

x 

ou knew 

1 a 1 the allegations to be in the Paula Jones case, mrre ? 

A I was drawing on this subpoena, which is to the 

! jz:Paula Jones case which was about sexual harassment. 

r::j Q And - 

[:z: 

::3: 

; AnU&: may I? 

i14: A And this was a person who had come to me about on 

1 I5 1 matter, she’s u set, she comes about another matter, and it 

ii E :just seemed a P ogrcal. rational question to ask and I asked 

ii7Jlt. 

:19: Q Are ou finished? 

(131 A I’m x nished. 

;30: 

;?I !you saw this sub 

[XI our own 

133, f: 

!?41 A Counsellor. I’ve said what I had to say. Don’t put 

::51words in my mouth. I’ve said exactly what I had to say. And 

Page 127 

[: 1 I’m not going to say any more about that. I said what the 

(2 lsubpoena did - I knew about the Paula Jones case, it is a 

[ 3: subpoena about the Paula Jones case. She’s asked to be a 

r~]witrress in the Paula Jones case. She’s told me about gifts 

: 5 1 to the President. 

;6!Want? 

Her eyes are big and wide. What do you 

[‘: Q 

[sjanSWU it. 

Okay. I want you to listen to my question and 

[91 A I think I did. 

Q You knew sir that the Paula Jones case involved 

i :i i an allegation that the President asked Paula Jones to engage 

; 12 1 in an act of oral sex with him, correct? 

I think that’s fair to say. 

And you were making a connection in your mind 

/i:jto finish 

A 

Cahl finish the question, sir7 

it. 

Yes. It’s a very important question. I want you 

[20! Q Absolutely. 

r211 A Okay. 

Q Between the allegations, whether true or not in 

i~~~ttte Paula Jones case and the subpoena that you were looking 

(2rlat with Monica Lewinsky on December 191h, correct? 

125: A And based on that, I said, “Have you had sexual 

OICStarr 

___ 

Page 122 fo Page 127 
1721 

ICA Vernon Jordan. 313198 XYAXIC 

Page 128 

: : relatrons with the President?” 

.^. Q 

:;:the allegation In tne Pau a Jones case was about oral sex, 

And IS it Fur testimony today that knowfng that 

i : ; not sexual intercourse, that your definitron of a sexual 

; : I relationship with Monica Lewinsky was confined to sexual 

16 jintercourse? 

I con? even know how to respond to that because 

_____ _____ 

Page 129 

; I ! her the question and I must say to you that I did not connect 

[zlwhen I asked her the question about sexual relatrons. I drd 

[ 3 ! not make a connection between the specific allegation in the 

~4 IPaula Jones case about oral sex. I want to be very clear 

[slabout that. When I asked about sexual relationshrps. I was 

161 not thinkin 

13 

about oral sex and the allegation in the 

[ 7 !Excelsior otel and then oral sex here as it relates to 

t~]Monica Lewinsky. I asked Monica Lewrnsk 

[glstatement some time in January, January 2 !tt 

as I said in my 

h. I guess, I 

; 1 iasked her if she had had sexual relationships with the 

;; i&e&dent. Pet-rod. 

11, Q If Monica Lewinsky had been enga 

:;;with the President, when you asked her on Decem % 

ing in oral sex 

er lgth 

i; iwhether she had had a sexual relationship with the President, 

,IS i would you have wanted her to tell you about oral sex with the 

: : E 1 President? 

. 7 A Franklv. Mr. Prosecutor. I didn’t want Monica 

i 13 j Lewmsky to tell me anything about her relationship with the 

15; President. But I knew iven this that I had to question. 

‘20’ Q Why die! n ‘t you want her to tell you about the 

: 2 1; nature of her relationship with the President in light of the 

::: ;subpoena that ou were both discussin ? _~‘ 

1:; i 

A rreally you know I had 9 o ask the question but, 

i 

ou know, there’s some questions you ask you don’t want to 

.?5: now the answerto. 

.11 Q So in other words, did it matter to you whether 

j: jwhat she told you was truthful? 

!3: A Well, the truth always matters to me. 

!4: Q Well, so did you want her to tell you the truth? 

(5: A And I assumed that she did when she said that she 

; sldid not have a sexual relationship with the President. I did 

; 7 ! not ask her ff she had had oral sex with the President. That 

[ 3 1 was not my business to ask her the 

t! 

articulars 

! 9 1 relationship. I asked her if she had 

of that sexual 

ad sexual relattons or 

101 relationships with the President. I’m not sure whrch. But I 

II! did not get gra htc, I did not 

13 : if they krssed, P- didn’t ask if t 

et specrfic, I didn’t ask her 

caressed, all of which. 

: 3 i as I understand it. is a part oft act of sex. 

14‘ 

1’: 

Q And part of a sexual relationship. 

,--, A That’s riaht. 

116: Q Did youSay es? 

A 

iii i you do what. 

Yes. Yes. E! ut I did not get specific as to how 

ii91 Q And, believe me, I don’t want to get specific. 

120 : either. I understand - 

1211 A Well, I don’t believe that, but you go right ahead. 

~?_I., Q My question is - getting back. because I ‘ust want 

;r;jto make sure I understand, when you asked her about w b ether 

[ 2 4 1 she had a sexual relationship - 

;35j A And that’s what I asked. I didn’t ask anything 

____--- __- 

Page 131 

r: 1 beyond tha: And I have tried to be vet-y. very clear about 

;z: that. I asked about sexual relations or relabonshrp. and 

‘3;l’m not sure which. Period. Mr. Prosecutor. Period. 

:4. 0 And what I am confused about and what I’m trying to 

were there any Iimrtatrons in your mind on any - 

sexual relattonshrp only included intercoume or 

rt could be broader than mat. 

A I cannot tell you whether there were IimitatIons 0” 

jp:my mind. I asked about sexual 

[?o:define it for her and I did not ask her s 

[ 1: 1 how many trmes do I have to tell you t 

[ 121 about anythin exce t sexual relatrons or relationshrps. I’m 

i 131 not sure whe a I dr -8 not go beyond that. 

114: Q Well, let me see if I can make sure I’m clear and 

I lslthen we can leave this. As I understand what you said a 

[ 16; little while ago when Mr. Wrsenberg was asking you and when I 

t17]was questaning you maybe five. ten minutes ago, I thought 

t 1s :you said that in your mind sexual relabonshrp only included 

r I slsexual intercourse. A few moments aao. when I asked vou 

Page 132 

A Do you understand what I’m sayin 

Iiirelationship. Period Relabons or relationships. 

? Sexual 

benod. 

I 3 1 Did they hoM hands? Did the kiss? Did they dance? Did 

14 Ithey stand on top of the tab+eJ I d&Y get into that 

( 5 1 because that’s not for me to define. be 

16 1 defined by the two people - 

That can only 

as I understand sex, can only be 

[ 7 1 defined by the two people having it. You seem to have the 

[ 8 1 problem wtt oral sex. I don’t. 

Q You were the person who asked the question about 

[ i E; whether she had a sexual relationshi 

II!] A 

f 12 1 asked the 

And I have explatned P- oyou the context in which I 

uestion. 

1131 8 I’m having trouble getting the questions out now 

; 14 1 for the record because - 

[151 A And I’m haven 

Q 9 

trouble understanding it. 

[161 Which is why think if we wait and let each other 

I I 7 I talk it will be easier. 

iiBT A Fine. Excuse me I apologize. 

119: 0 Who brought up the topic of sexual relationship? 

rzo]You or Ms. Lewinsky? 

[211 A 

Q 

I brought it up. 

When 

~~~~rnind as to the type o 

rS4ito vou. Correct. 

fy 

ou brought it up, you had somethin 

rnfonnatron you wanted her to impa 4 

in your 

is5; . A Yes. And, wunsellor. what I had in mind was 

Page 133 

[I 1 sexual relations or sexual relationships. 

l-31 Cl And when you asked that uestion, were you 

I 3 T intendina for her to tell YOU whatever detar ? s 

i 4 j been of 5 sexual nature - 

there may have 

[51 A I wanted her to tell me what she toM me and that 

[ 6 !was that she had no sexual relations or relationships with 

[ 7 1 the President. Period. 

Q Would 

I “, 1 had she told you that 

our course of action have been an 

&e K 

dirent 

at 

rlolthere was’ 

re was no sex versus indicating t 

[Ill A That’s a h 

1121 Q As you sit -~gg$, lj:$g:$? 

(131 A I don’t. 

Cl41 BY MR. BIl-fMAN: 

Q You said, Mr. Jordan, that from the content of your 

I:zjquestion to her she was ted to believe that you were asking 

[ 17 1 only whether she had had sexual intercourse with the 

t I 8 1 President 

1191 A Wait a minute. You have to ask her what she 

izojthought. 

t.211 Q Okay. You said ou either asked her about whether 

122 Ithere were sexual relations or re Iis. 

1231 A Right. 

bonshtp. 

0 

!::iquestion - 

And you said it was dear from the context of the 

Page 128 to Page 133 olc--Starr 
1722 

Page 134 

I 

i 

Vernon Ja brdan, 3/3/98 

A She answered the question about sexual relatrons or 

j: relahonshrps no. And I did not 

.z: satisfied with her answer. And P 

o beyond that. I was 

ve said it here. I said it 

; : in my press conference. That is my answer. 

‘: j _: Q I’m not trvinq to chanae vour answer. 

- - 

__: 

A All right. - - 

Q You just said, though, that - I mean, we’re 

: F : talkrno about definitrons here and vou don’t know what was in 

: i. her m%d unless she said something. but you don’t know what 

: : z lwas In her mind. I’m just sayrng you said that R was clear 

: :: :from the context of the conversahon that your question to 

: 1: 1 her only related to whether she had had sexual intercourse 

: : 2 Iwith the President and my question to you IS - 

A I never used the word interwune. I used the word 

1 iz j sexual relations or relationships, I’m not sure which. 

::<:That’s the word I used. I did not use the word sexual 

: : -: intercourse. I said sexual relations with the President or 

: : 3 J relationships. That’s what I said on this record ten times 

::j:now. 

‘--: _--, Q I understand - .--1 A I did not ask her if she had sexual intercourse 

izi iwith the President. I asked her if she had sexual relations 

: 3 3 iwith the President. 

[24, 0 Was there anything else about the context of the 

; 2 5 1 question that made your question suggest that it was only 

Page 135 

: : I about sexual intercourse? Obviously you didn’t use the term 

:: jsexuat intercourse. 

:3: A 

:4: 

Counsellor. algkyn do is tell you what I asked. 

MR. BI-I-TMAN: 

:s] MR. WISENBERG: Y have a question. I have a couple 

: -: 1 of questions. .*, BY MR. WISENBERG: 

-:s.that now 

Page 136 Page 139 

Q Well, actually - let me just say, what I want to 

f f i know, there is no general right to refuse to answer a 

: 3: hypothetical question. What I’m askin you is in your heart, 

: 4 1 in your soul, in your gut, if it turns out t 3, at she had oral 

: 3 1 sex with the President, do you feel like she ked to you? As 

if: you srt here now, what does your gut tell you? 

A 

:a; MR. WI5!ENBE&: 

I’m .ust not orng to answer that. 

_ That’s all I have for now. 

:3: MR. BIENERT: What we’ll do is we’ll come back to 

; : ;. that area later. 

,..: .-A_ BY MR. BIENERT: 

.._. Q Now, any other discussions with her as far as the 

1 I<inature of the relationship between her and the President when 

: :; 1 you met with her on the 19th of December? 

.‘5. A Ask me that again. I’m slightly distracted b 

1 f 6 j question. Would you be kind eno 

3 

h to ask me that a 

‘I-: Q Sure. Other than 

[ 1 lout of there, it is not inconceivable that there wouM be 

: 2 1 some memento from the White House. 

0 Well I think a moment 

i:iyou said some aspect about the fact tha a9 there was a gift 

o you indicated, though, 

[ slexchange. Was it surprisin 

[ 6 1 apparently some sort of exe 3, 

to you that there had been 

A 

ange of gifts? 

Ii 1 Iassumed that it had to do wrth a friendship developed - 

Yes. I didn’t quite know what that was about, but 

[ 9jMs. Lewinsky 

:~o~me. she broug i! 

ave me a gift. The last tii she came to see 

r111gifts to 

t me a tie. And so evidently she likes giving 

~~z]almost I? 

opb that help her. I still have the tie I 

rought it for you to see. But she did. the last 

i13jtime she was in my off&. she brought me a gift, a tie. And 

:~clshe said, “Thank ou for helpin 

Le!s go back to 

me.” 

Q 5e cember 19th. thou 

1 :z :meeting with Ms. Lewinsky. As of that time had you 3, 

h, your 

nown 

: I 7 Tanv other interns or low-level White House &affers that to 

: 19])5resident? 

i is j otr knowledge had engaged in gift exchanges with the 

:201 A I do not. 

1211 Q As of that time, had you known any other interns 

: 2: I and/or low level White House staffers who had been “friends” 

i 2 3 j or whatever term she used with the President? 

;241 A I can’t sa that I have. What I do know is that 

; 25 1 there is exposure to the b resident, to interns by the 

if 3 j asking her-whether she had sexual relationships or a 

I: 3: relationshi 

::: !did you as R 

with the President, did you have any other - 

her anything or did she say anythin else that 

:z: lfilled in to any degree the nature of the relahons 8. ip? 

.-., A Yes. She said that she had conversations with the 

iI5 i President, that she talked to the President. And I said,, 

::q :“When and how do you talk to the President?” She said, “I 

: I 5; talk to him on the phone.” And I accepted that and she said 

Page 137 

XMAXW) 

: Iwhen she was In the White House from hme to time that she 

et the chance to see the 

: :? 1 Iwanted answered. And she answered that question to my 

: :3,sahsfaction and it was clear that she had some conversahon 

: :4 Iwith the President. I don’t know how many, and I don’t know 

:~slwhere and In what context, I did not pursue that. What I 

: 16 1 thou ht after thus conversation IS that this young lady 

: ~7 1 nee B ed counsel badly in light of her subpoena. 

;:91 Q Okay. You mentioned the ifts and I assume you 

i : 3 Iwere referring to what’s on the last page o 9 the affidavrt. 

;zojwhrch IS request forproduchon number 7, which I’ll read for 

!_‘I jthe record. It says, Please produce each and every gift 

i 22 1 including but not limited to any and all dresses. accessories 

: :! 3 1 and jewelry and/or hat pins given to ou. Monica 

:zrl jor on behalf of Defendant President k. 

Lewinsk 

r 

, 

Itnton.” Is that wha 

by 

: 2 5 J kind of caused you to ask her about gifts? 

Page 138 

Ill A That and what she said to me was that there had 

rzjbeen an exchan e of gifts. 

Q & she indicate to you any particular gifts that 

i:ihad been excha ed? 

:51 A N2 that I recollect. 

Q Did you ask her about any of the particular items 

I,” 1 here such as dresses accessories, or jewelry? 

181 A No, I d/d not. 

Q Did it strike you as unusual that this intern had 

:izi been exchan in 

::I 1 listed here wi?h &e President? 

gifts and potentially gifts of the nature 

ii:;President. 

A No. These cuff links are a gift from the 

People go in and out of his office 

: I 4 1 

Ii 

elf ball, you get a cuff link, you get a tie pin. ’ xl?% 

: 151 Ink that was necessaril unusual. Somewhat unusual that 

: : 61 there was an exchan e Y; 

Q 

ut I accepted that. 

Well. !r& of all I’m assuming you would not have 

! ii i expected that Ms. Lewinsky would be on the same gift giving 

: I 9 1 terms as you and the Presrdent. 

:201 A Not necessarily. I mean, citiiens are citizens. 

; 211 People in the Whrte House - you know, if you’re on the White 

; 2: 1 House staff, everybod 

~231 uys still wear their P 

prizes these cuff links. The Kennedy 

:& 

1y boat tie clip. It’s a pretty good 

rng So not necessarily. If you’ve been a White House 

:: 5 1 intern. you worked in the legislative office, you are in and 

OlCStarr Page 134 to Page 139 
1723 

851 Vernon Jordan, 3i3198 IYII,,., 

Page 140 

:: : President. they get to see hrm. the 

,2 1 they get to go to ceremonres. Tha r. 

get to go to meetings, 

IS not unusual. 

Q But s 

1 iiaware of anyone at t P 

cifically on the ift exchanges you weren’t 

at level that you 3, 

: 51 that with the President. correct? 

new of who e’ngaged in 

Ifi 

A No. No, I’m not. 

Q Did ou know of anyone who was an intern or a 

[ 8 1 low-level staffer at t K e Whrte House who would talk on the 

[ 9 {telephone with the President? 

Ii01 A 

Q 

Not to my knowledge. 

Did you o over any other 

iii;Let me lust direct you, I 9.. hrnk tt’s request P or production 

arts of the subpoena? 

; I 3 1 number 3. it says. “Documents constitutin 

; 14 1 communrcations between ou and Defen B 

or containing 

r 

ant Clinton, including 

: ij 1 letters, cards, notes, et ce era.” Did you ask Ms. Lewinsk 

: 16 1 at all whether there were any kind of cards or communica ty ions 

: 17 1 between them? 

She told me about the telephone conversations. 

1241 A I do not. 

0 As you see request number 1 indicates, “Every 

Page 143 

,:.that’s not my queshon. Outslde of the Oval Offce where - 

: ,would there be an officers or Secret Servcca a 

,3;posltloned to our knowledge not In the off~ca 

: 4 I other side of t ‘c, 

% 

ents or anyone 

ut on the 

e closed doors? 

.C. Well. I’ve been privileged to have been gorng to 

ii jy Whde AHouse for a vex lo? time and I must say that 

: 7 1 iven the presence of sta an Secret Servrce. whl e I may 

ig! ave been alone, I have never felt alone, if you understand 

:?!what I mean. If 

:;,lout toward the Ry 

ou’re In the Oval Oftice and you’re lookrng 

: : i 1 there 

ose Garden, there are two Secret Servrca guys 

Before you go in. there are two Secret SetvIce guys. 

?-A‘ .. 3 :There’s a butter here. So while the door ma be dosed. 

;:3!there IS - there is no sense that you are rea 7 ly alone, If 

‘14 1 ou understand what I’m sa 

::5]ZIff 

ing. But I have been In the Oval 

ice with several presiden r s alone. That’s not bad for a 

::61poor colored bo from a housing project. 

;:71 Q &Id when you were In the Oval Office and 

[~a 1 articularty with Mr. Clinton, or President Clinton, is it’ 

i I 91 P hen your testimony that you’re not exact1 sure of where the 

:5y;Kat time? 

rsons who are not in the Oval Office WI I h you would be at 

122; A ht about where 

:23lother pea 

R 

The fact is I’ve not really thou 

le were when I was alone with the 9, resrdent because 

12.4 ]my thoug ts were on whatever it was that we were discussing. 

!25~But I am aware of the very tight, almost oppressrve presence 

Page 141 

I I 1 document relating to any private meetings between you and 

r2rDefendant .~. Clinton.” Bv ‘vou.” of course. that means Ms. 

[3lLewinsky. Did you ask her whether or not she had had-any 

[ 4 1 pnvate meetin s with the President? 

[51 A Qdidnot. 

[61 Q Did she indicate to you whether she had? 

!71 A 

Q 

She did not, to my recollection. No. 

Were you aware of any interns or an low-level 

Iii staffers wp ~0;~: have private meetings with the 

iO! 

+r resident? 

11: Q 

12 1 when you 

Do you have private meetings with the President 

o to the White House? 

:3j R I do. 

141 Q 

15ldo you meet? 

Where when you meet with the President in private 

?6j A Depends on where he is. 

:7; Q Well, what would be some of the places where you’ve 

: 3 1 met in private with the President? 

19: A The Oval Office. The upstairs residence. There 

20 1 are a couple of offices there. The solarium. Sometimes 

21 Iwe’re on the qolf course alone. Sometimes we’re in the car 

22jalone. - 

23: Q Have you ever been in the President’s study next to 

2: 1 the Oval Office? 

25: A Yes, I have. 

Page 142 

(11 Q Have you ever been in the presidential - what is 

.~. r z 1 it. the dinina room. riaht next to the Oval OffIce? 

A’ 

[:isinca Lyndon Baines Johnson. Bill Cknton bein 

Yes rhave. I’ve been going to those premises 

? 

elected 

[ 5 1 President was not my first visit to those parts of he White 

[ 6 1 House. 

Q Well, I want to focus on Mr. Clinton though 

Ii ithis point. Have you ever been alone with Mr. Clinton in the 

at 

[ 91study? 

‘IO] A Yes, I have. 

:111 Q Have you ever been alone with Mr. Clinton in the 

; 12 1 dining room area? _ 

:131 A Yes, I have. 

Q 

i::itimes when the doorwould%e shut. 

I’m assumin when you say alone, there would be 

A 

’ f7” 1 with the President with the door shut. 

I have never been in the study or the dining room 

‘181 Q Have ou been in the Oval office with the President 

:19lalone with the doors K ut? 

201 A I have been in the Oval Office with the door shut. 

,211 Q So when 

22 I President and the door s I 

ou’re in the Oval Office with the 

ut. what would be the layout, at 

2:;teast as faias ~;;,k,“;3a~oftice, 

251 Q You’ve got to let me finish the question because 

Page 144 

!I 1 of other people when the President is around. Always. Even 

r2lon the gotf course. 

!31 Q 

14 laware when 

So is the answer to my uestion, no 

[sIthe Presidr r 

ou’re in the Oval Office WI 9h the door s ’ fY ut with are not 

where these others were? 

16: I am aware of where they are. I know that they’re 

:71 not in the room. But I also know that they are stationed 

! 8 1 hither and yon outside of the office. 

0 And to your knowledge. when you’re in the Oval 

r ~~]Qffice with the door shut, wkh the President how many 

:: 11 people would be stationed outside of the Oval Office, to use 

::21your term. here and yon, around him? 

A 

i i:i to three Secret Service people in the 

Well, at least two Secret Service guys always. Two 

hallwa 

:Is]Oval Office and the Roosevelt Room. And t K 

between the 

: i 6 1 there to bring coffee or tea or food. 

e butler is always 

0 

iii i three Secret 

::9]the door in the hallwa 

:23! be - there’s a little 

r2llOval Office. correct? 

.-, t--l A That’s right. 

Q Could be there. And I’m assuming there’s also 

i:iBetty CIJ~ or some variation of her or Nancy Hemreich - 

I251 Outside the Oval Office 

- ___. ~_ 

Page 145 

!I! the other door of the Oval Offtce. 

::I 

;5 1 the office where 

And on the other side of the dining room is 

ahm Emanuel sits and before him where 

I 4 I George Stephanopoulos sat. 

Q Do you recall any additional discussions at all 

i 2; with Ms. Lewinsky about an 

[7 Iduring the meeting that you K 

aspect of this subpoena at least 

is]December 19th? 

ad wtth her in your off& on 

[~5!relationship or an ina propriate relationship between her 

r161and the Presiden fy . Is P hat a fair assessment? 

i17i A 

0 

Ask your question again. 

i:ilwere you then satisfied in your mind that she had not 

When she told you no to the question ou asked, 

K ad an 

QO 1 inappropriate retationshio with the President? 

1211 A I accepted her answer at face value. 

;:21 

[23lthough. 

Q And, then my question is going a file beyond that, 

I’m just trying to understand what it meant to you. 

;241 

~251 

A It meant what she said. No. 

Q And did that then mean to you that you did not 

Page 140 to Page 145 

--_ ____-.-. _._ 

oic-stan 
1724 

Vernon Jordan, 3/3/96 

~__- 

Page 146 

[ : i believe that there was anything inappropriate about the 

I z ! relationshi 

I 

? 

I believed what she said and I did not ,make a 

j:ijudgment about whether or not she had an ina 

: 5 1 relationship wrth the President. Because I ha cPK%%er to 

[ i!what I thou 

[?]sexual rela P ronshr She said no. 

ht may have been inappropriate and that was 

[a: Q In! ht of that, and taking that at face value, 

rglwere you surpnse c? at the degree to whrch she was upset about 

1 ~olobtaining thus subpoena in the Paula Jones case? 

,:I: A No. It seemed to me to be a reasonable reaction to .--. 

[~lgetting a sgbpoena. 

1171 

L--1 

x 

And what do vou base that on? 

Who wants tdget a subpoena in a case involving the 

1 i: i President of the United States? So if she was upset, that 

(161seemed natural to me, that she would be u set about it. 

r: 

I 

i :T iwas upset when I got your subpoena, okay. So It’s a human 

rlsjthing. 

Q 

j:zisubpoena. 

Let me see if I have anything further on the 

At what point during this conversation with 

121 EMS. Lewinsky did you conclude that you should get her an 

[221attomey? 

r231 A 

Q 

Well, I knew that when she called on the telephone. 

i::iline them up or con er wrth them 

liadrou ,made anL=lls to any attorneys to possrbly 

fore she came to meet you? 

Page 147 

A No. I saw her and then I made my call to Mr. Frank 

! :J! he could have been unavailable. 

‘14: Q Do you know whether you called Frank Carter while 

; : 3 1 she was still present? 

[i6j A I did not. 

“7, ._ Q j:sj So you called him after she would have left. 

A Absolutely. 

!: ?I Q Did vou have anv discussion with her on that dav as 

i 56; to whether or not it made more sense for her to get her own _ 

j Z i 1 attorney versus ou 

:22jfor someone forKer? 

etting one or at least putting in a call 

1-31 A 

Q 

I offered my services and they were not refused. 

She didn’t at any potnt. say, ask any questions, 

I ,: j for example. about whether she should get one on her own as 

Page 148 

[ 11 opposed to goin through you. 

!2: A \r$ell. she - I think it’s safe to say exhibited 

i 3 j some confidence in m 

[4j Q So thin z 

judgment. 

hat topic at all. 

the answer then is no, she did not bring 

:51up tl 

161 A No she didn’t. 

I71 MR. BI’TLTMAN: 

MR BIENERT: 

Why don’t we take a break now? 

Yes. That’s what I was aoing to - 

here? 

isj I... _._.._ 

So if we can iust takea couple-minute breal 

rl: A ten-minute break. 

191 

!lOl +ilE FQREPERSOf 

IllI MR. BIENERT: Ok; 

I121 THE FOREPERSON: 

1131 THE WITNESS: Th 

i:!iwith the grand jurors 

MR BIENERT:_ Ant 

3Rd 

lYOkav 

ank you. 

1 if we could stay on the record 

ii6i 

1171 - :nEF( 

I131 

1191 

-. .- 

WR. BIENE 

THE FOREPERS 

(Wtinessexcused 

usf ror lwo minutes? _ 

PERSON: Certainly. 

RT: Okay. So ten minutes, ma’am? 

ON: Yes. 

izoi BY MR. BITTMAN: 

Wtiness recalled.) 

I’ll Q Mr. Jordan, the grand jurors had a number of 

122 lquestions and I think it mrght be best to go over the meeting 

:231 ou had wkh Ms. Lewinsk on December 191h. What time was 

; ;: ;r”’ meeti?. a yoximate$, if you remember? 

he called me in the morning. I think it was 

XMIXl2Sl 

Page 149 

:: Ibefore lunch. It was - I think tt was before lunch. I 

i2gust - I thmk it was before lunch Yes. 

!j: 0 That was the hone call? 

A 

! “, i think she came - I Phink I asked her to come as ouicklv as 

The hone ca P I was definitely before lunch and I 

; 6 j possible. 

. , 

Q Okay. And so the meetin occurred within what 

1; j period of time relative to the phone call 8 o you think? 

191 A 

Q 

I think she was there within an hour, maybe sooner 

110: Is thus meetinq reflected on your calendar that 

illjyour secretaries kee ? - 

[i2! A I don OP know the answer to that. 

Q 

liZ;before noon. 

She comes in maybe some time around noon. if not 

iisi A Right. 

1161 Q She’s by herseif She wmes into your office and 

I 17 Ifrom vour descriotion earlier. she was crvna? 

i1ej - A Crying. 

1191 Q 

A 

Crying. And she had a copiAfter she got in the office. s e didn’t wme in the 

[~!~office weeping but when she got there and closed the door, 

tzzlthe tears came. 

[231 0 She started to cry then. 

[241 

[251 

A Yes. 

0 And did it appear to you that she had been crytng 

Page 150 

111 prior to coming to your office? 

;;;on the phope $r$rllkght. 

I guess she had been crying 

141 Q Okav. o she comes in your office she begins to 

isjcry once she gets there. 

A She had obvious 

176ipresentable when she came to t x- - 

made herself up and she was 

e office. 

Q Tell us step by step what happened after she got to 

Ii;your office. You said the meeting was about 45 minutes. 

:I”, A I could see this fear and she showed me the 

i ;; isubpoena. we talked about the subpoena, we talked about the 

[lzlgifts. I asked her about this relationship. 

What I did not say is that during the course of 

I::ithis conversation, Ms. Lewinsk asked me if I thou ht that 

[ 1s 1 the President would leave the Fy- rrst Lady at the en B of his 

[16]term and that, as I remember it. was,a very both frightening 

[ 1: I and, from my point of view, unrealistic question about the 

[ 18 1 President so I just said that’s a really crazy notion on your 

[ 191 

P 

art. that that would happen, and that I was confident that 

[2oj hey would be together Yil death do them art and I do 

121 Ibelieve that, as a matter of fact. And sai .8 that to her. 

r:zlAnd that was - it was that statement that certainly sent 

[23]a!amt bells off in my mind as to this kind of fixation, this 

[24 ikind of possessive, bobby-soxer attitude that I felt that she 

1251 had towards the President. 

Page 151 

Q 

[:ishe came in? 

What’s the first thing you discussed with her when 

I31 A The subpoena. 

141 . ~, 0 The subooena? And how did vou discuss it? Exolain 

[5]10 us. 

A “The subpoena is a very serious matter, I think you 

1 fi need a lawyer, you’ve 

[a janswer. you’ve ot all & 

ot all these questions you’ve got to 

ese documents ou’ve got to produce, 

[ gland sorou nee? a layer. I’m haz&t;&;$ {ryfgeezr 

rlollawyer. I drd ask her she want 

[ 1 I I about a lawyer and she said she did not want to talk to her 

[ 12 jfather, that she and her father had had an estranged 

I I 3 1 relationship, that she was closest to her mother. and I 

114 jsuggested to her that she tell her mother that I would help 

t 15 j hei get a lawyer. 

,161 And then we aot into this thina about the President 

i ;; iand the conversation wss such that it j&t convinced me that 

I I 8 1 there was this fixation on the President which was ve 

[ 19 1 disturbing to me and then I asked her the question an 3 then I 

t2ojgot my answer and she. I think, settled down a lithe bit. 

I told her she had to 

Ii:iwould do everythin 

3, 

I could to 

pt herself together that I 

nd her counsel then when I 

t23lfound her counsel t at I would get with her, have her come 

t24lin. that I would take her to a la 

I251 Q Did she indicate “rer. oyou that she -well, I guess 

OlCStarr 

___ -._ __ -- ._. 

Page 146 to Page 151 
1725 

esA Vernon Jordan, 313196 XYAX(26) 

-~- ~-~ -~~~~~-~ __ .__ --- ~. 

Page 152 

.: you testified she did indicate to you that she had been given 

.I ,grfts by the President. 

-: .A A Yes, she did. 

.;:gifts-? Q Did she indicate to you whether she still had those 

r 

._. A No, she did not. And I did not ask the question. 

.-- 0 You did not ask. 

.t’ - A No. 

z Q 

.::_the gifts7 

Did she say that she was no longer in possession of 

__ A I did not ask that questron. 

..- Cl She comes in, she gives you a copy of the subpoena. 

I : you said tFt you read the subpoena - 

‘:; Skimmed it. 

..= Q Skimmed it. Then 

::z:One of the questions was about w 1 

ou began to ask her questions. 

ether she had had a sexual 

: :-; relationshi or relations with the President. 

..:. 

.--. 1 Ri ht. 

::>: 0 

A 

&at else did you query her about? .“_. I most1 

:Ef jthe White House, the 

listened as she emoted about her time in 

b resrdent. sort of - you know, “Wh is 

ning to me and how am I going to handle it?” 

i ,i ~%%“%%s why yo; need counsel. That’s whr )roroneeu%j ’ 

kr and I will hel 

:25 124:layfin 

you find a lawyer and I m I 

a job.” And tha process, of course, was ongoing. 

Page 153 

_. 

f f j minutes. 

Q You said that the conversation was about 45 

What percentage did you talk about the subpoena? 

‘3 .Or how manv mmutes. aobroximatelv. did YOU talk about the :; 

:: .: 

‘i 

- 

:. 

.- .i 

. : 1 

.-- 

. 

__ 

..- 

.-- 

; 

,-- 

.. . 

.-- 

.. i .-- 

‘Is 

::i 

.. 2 

_. 

:subpoena? ’ .* . _ 

A I literally cannot tell you that, I mean, I think 

‘she was there for 45 minutes. It was high1 emotional, it 

iwas charged. She was feeling very sorry b r herself and I 

.was feeling a little sorry for her. But I cannot honestly 

‘allocate to you divisions of the conversation In terms of 

: bme. I cannot do that. 

0 

:an attome ? 

Did you tell her how she would be able to pay for 

)r, 

:a job, and how she was 

:wrth the lawyer, I though 

:for her to work out with counsel, not with me. 

Q What did she sa about gifts? 

A She simply said Y hat she and the President ha 

;exchanged gifts, that she had some gifts and she t lad given 

:I: : her gifts, herd given her oifts. Period And I did not 

.- ~oursue what krnd of 

:if ibnen. howQtheyA$r; 

: z 1 i relationshio with the 

.-: 

.--. 

gifts: what they were, when the were 

e given, that was not for me to II o. 

low, as best you can, how did she describe her 

_.._ _ 

A 

President? 

hit was clear to me - how did she describe it? It 

Page 154 

: 1. was clear to me that there was a fixation, a fascination, 

:: : with the President and she said, “He is my friend... 

: 3: basically. I acce ted that. 

1:: BY M$ BIENERT: 

.:. Q Did she ever indicate in essence she was frustrated 

-i:by the situation? Namely, was there ever a time when she 

‘I ; indicated that she was frustrated or words to that effect 

i 3 : that she was not speaking to the President as much as she’d 

: 3 : like? 

A Yes, she did. She said, “I don’t ever hear from 

:rr:the President ” and I said to her, I said, “He is the leader 

: : z : of the free world. he has Ira he has IMF. he has Southeast 

f :i:Asia. he has the Middle Eas 9 He’s a very bus 

: 1: i should know that from your experience in the &?il.Hz%e.’ 

: 1:. I mean. I was - it was somehow stunning to me that she was 

- :I complamin 

i r-;sure I said 9 

that she did not hear from the President. I’m 

o her, “You know, I don’t hear from him every 

: 1 I Iday. either.” I mean, this was - this was stunning, to say 

: : 3. the least. 

.__: Q Did 

: z : : your frustrations r 

ou ever sa to her words to the effect of take 

ou on me or $ou’,re frustrated, talk to 

iE::rne, don’t take them out on the resrdent? 

._-. A I think I said to her, “You know, you can’t be 

i!~:calling the Oval Office and if you’ve got some problem, you 

:25:call me.’ 

Page 155 

II. 0 What is it about what she sard to you that made you 

r 2 1 think she was calling the Oval office? 

13: A I lust assumed that If she was callrng me as much 

id las she was callrn 

[s 1 calling the White R 

that grven thus fixation that she was also 

ouse. 

[61 Q Did you have any independent knowledge from any 

:71source - 

131 A I knew that she called Be 

i9! tt! 

Curne. 

Q And how did you know tha ? 

i:yiBe 

A From Betty Cume. She would call Be 

t? 

Currie was her friend, as she explained to me. t5;l:ume’ 

!12 IWOU d call Betty Currie. 

[13: Q As who explained? Betty or Monica? 

i14: A Both. 

Q When is that Monica Lewinsky told you she was 

I: 2; Betty’s friend and would call Bett 

A Well, it was clear r o me the very first time she 

? 

i :i; came to see me that she and Betty were friends. That is why 

(151 Betty sent her to me. And I understood that. And I asked 

~201 her. I’m sure, in that first meeting, “How dorou know Betty 

[IIISO well?” And she sard, “Betty’s my fnend. 

[22! Q And when was it that Betty would have indicated to 

t231you that she was friends with Monica? 

A At some point during the course of my vanous 

I::; conversations for whatever reason. If I talked to Betty, I 

-._. -__ 

Page 156 

111 would ,say, “Be , your friend is callin me up. She’s 

ii; :;;;$I! gwFe s calling me up.” %rd she would say, “Yes, 

Q 

1 zi friends and the 

But she indicated somewhere in there that they’re 

keep in touch? 

A lth, tal 

I still don’t see the link. 

rnr I conversation when she called me, she 

/t; said, “Would you talk to my friend Monica Lewinsk _” 

isi Q So she used that label or words to & at effect. 

[91 A Yes. 

Q You indicated, I was looking back at my notes, when 

[ :E i we first started talking about this December 19th meeting, I 

[II 1 think you characterized it as saying she had a different 

rl31focus and you said she talked about the sub oena, she talked 

i 14 1 about herself, she talked about the Presiden r Obviously 

rlslwe’ve talked about the subpoena. What is it that she said to 

I I 6 I you about hers&f? 

[17: A Essentially the entire conversation was about 

[ IB! herself, but in relationship to the subpoena, that was about 

[I 9: her. Her fantasoed notion about the President was about 

[rolher. And the visrt was about her and her problem and her 

[:I J roblem was - she had two problems. One, she was lookrn 

(221 P or a job In New York and, two, she had the subpoena and s ;1 e 

r231needed counsel. 

[241 Q Did the degree of emotion that she exhibited on the 

[zslphone and at that meeting cause you to again question her 

Page 157 

[ 11 characteristics in terms of someone that was looking for a 

I .-.,~ 2 1 iob in New York? 

A No. I did not question her characteristics. I 

I:iunderstood that she was lookrn 

[ 51 was doing something about tha 

[ 6 ] why she was disturbed by this subpoena an I also understood 

(71after I asked her the question that maybe the subpoena was 

1 s 1 not the problem that she thought it was if she in fact was 

[ 9 1 telling the truth about what I asked her. 

II01 Q Did you get the impression that she could have 

[ I I J misunderstood - 

[121 A 

Q 

What do you mean misunderstood? 

When you asked N/s. Lewinsky the question about 

I ::; sexual relations or relationship, whatever it was phrased as 

[ 15JdO you think she ma 

A Well 1 don’t know. I assumed that she understood 

have misunderstood what you were asking? 

::76;because she answered directly. 

;:891you 

Q 

would 

tf she had said yes to that question do 

have asked her any follow-up questions to 

ou think 

f&sh it 

[201out? 

I211 A Just as I did not ask her any follow-up questions, 

112 1 my suspicion is that I would not have - I don’t know what 

1231 the follow-up question would have been. 

[241 Q 

A 

That’s why I’m askin 

[251 Yes. I mean, I don’t 9, now what it would have been. 

__- 

Page 152 to Page 157 

- --_ .___ ____--_.__. 

OlCStarr 
1726 

BSA XMAX(Z7I 

Page 158 Page 161 

-In this case, it was not necessary and I did not ask. I 

-I.don’t know what the follow-up question would have been. When 

.;‘ I was practictng a different krnd of law I? another 

-:.my life. and I took drvorce tases and thongs lrke t t: 

art of 

at, then 

: 5.1 was re uired to ask m-depth. detarled quesbons about 

6 1 relations Ii ips. That was a ve 

: 3. I’ve not practiced that kind of r 

long tune ago, 1960. And 

aw for a very long time, 

:?; thank God. 

0 Based on her whole demeanor, taken all into account 

: i 9 fat this meeting, did you belsve her answer? 

-.. 

.--. A Yes. 

.._ 

:I;jPresident. 

Cl You’ve used the term fascination with the 

A Yes. 

1. by he:. dunng that December 19th meetrng that you haven’t 

1. told us’ 

: A .- 

. Q 

Not that I can recollect. 

_-. A 

VN,” you deuded to call Frank Carter, correct? 

i .- Q 

A 

Why did you decide to call Mr Carter’ 

._. Mr. Carter is a very good young. black lawyer In 

: 5 -thus town v&h a terrific reputation and I have called on him 

: >.before for Whrte House ersonnel. When Ma gte Wrlliams was 

:::.invoived in Whitewater R4 aggte Williams was 9 he Ftrst Lady’s 

: :: : chtef of staff, and Ma ' le came to, see me or called me about 

tfi. ou in thus uty and your urcumstance IS Frank Carter. 

r- - c$~r+el.~ And I sard, Maggie. I think the best lawyer ffrAnd 

:::‘ aggre came to my office. as did Frank Caner, I gave them an 

: :s: office and they spent a couple of hours in effect 

::f:intewlewin 

d 

each other. 

i1-’ ;.._: A 

About how long ago was this. by the way? 

Whenever Maggie Williams was subpoenaed in the 

::sjWhitewater case. I don’t know when that was. I_^. 

_--_ Q 

r-. . A 

What is iour best recollectron? ‘97? Or ‘96? 

I do not now..but I can go to m records and find 

!zs jout, but jt was some time dunng the time mat d aggre 

:z3:W1lliams was brought to this courthouse, like I was brought 

:2q:here toda 

c35:Carter. Hy 

And I suggested to Maggie that she use Frank 

e came to my office. She came to my office. I 

Page 159 

1: Iwas goin but I want to make sure I’m clear on it, you had 

!3 1 no way o 9% knowing and you ddn’t form any cpnclusrons as to 

‘3jwhether or not her feelings towards the President were 

i 4 : one-sided or whether he did or didn’t have feelings towards 

:5!her. 

:6: A Yes. Mine was not to reason why. 

,-. Q Did she ever indicate at an 

; B idiscussion that she was concerned about K 

time during this 

erself posstbly 

i algetting in trouble or words to that effect as a result of 

: 13 i this subpoena? 

:.,I A She was concerned about the subpoena and I think 

115 jfor her the subpoena ipso facto meant trouble. 

Q 

i iii lines of “I don’t want to 

Did she articulate anything. though, along the 

8, et in trouble,” or ‘Could I get in 

: : 5 1 trouble because of this. 

A If she asked that question, and I don’t have any 

i it; recollection of her asking that question, that is a question 

‘1 9 ; that I would have said to her was for her lawyer to answer 

i 1;; and not for me to answer. ,_“. Q Did she ever durin 

: I: lconcern about not wantina to qet 

tz? i words to that effect? - - 

._~. A She had exoressed feelinas about the Paula Jones 

1:; ; case. She thou ht the President was bein legally harassed 

:r5:and unfairly so, 9 hat was her judgment. I dg Id not engage her 

Page 160 

r: 1 in that process, but she thought that the President was being 

12 i unfairly treated. 

i -, Q And this was durina this discussion on the 19th? .-. 

;1: A Yes. Yes. - 

ii;’ 

iiibeen. 

Q Tell us as best you can what her words would have 

A 

illstatement that 

unfairly, 

at about 

ose of us who are Clinton partisans. 

“,I 0 And you responded with that information,when I 

1 i5 1 asked you whether she e 

Did s 

ressed a concern about getting the 

.14 1 President in trouble. “Re make any link between her 

;15!views of the Paula Jones case that you ‘ust told.us about and 

[:c]any concern that she didn’t want to get Ih e Presrdent In 

: 17 1 trouble? 

Ilal A No. 

Q So again, then, other than expressing a general 

ii3jview about the Paula Jones case, did she sa 

::I] to the effect that she did not want to get the J 

anything, words 

resident In 

;33 1 trouble? 

!?3! A No. 

0 Is there anything further about this, any topic of 

ig: jdiscussion or specific statements, either made by you or made 

Page 162 

ut them in an office 

‘^. rson and I like him a lot and I think a lot about m 

: i 5 i Eck lawyers in, the practice and to the extent that r 

fellow 

can 

;:::throw thm ..^I 8 

s therr way, I do. 

.--_ Other than the referral of Ma 

3 

gie Williams as a 

r. 2, 

p” 

ssible client to Mr. Carter, can you think o anyone else 

i I; f hat you have referred to Mr. Carter in the last, say, two 

::5:years? 

_. A A member of my family asked about using Frank 

i14:Carter in a particular circumstance and I sad I thought 

: 13 : Frank Carter would be an excellent lawyer. And over the 

1: 9 i years we’ve talked about what kind of practice he ultimately 

:::I wants to have, whether he wants to continue to be sort of out 

::: : there as - he has a two-person office, whether he would like 

: 22: to come in a huge law firm like mine or whether he would like 

: 13: to 

1:: ;of E 

o into government. I’m very fond of him and we’ve soft 

ad this continuing discussion. I think he likes to know 

: 2 5 J what he’s domg. 

___- 

Page 163 

. . Q Over the last - using, say, since the beginning 

.s i of ‘97. since that’s what we were usrn for other references, 

: 3 J setting aside any conversations abo II! Monrca Lewinsky 

: 4 with him. how many times would you say you’ve spoken to 

:51Mr. Carter? 

Okay. So lunch two or three times a year. Do you 

I; i guys have occasional ‘ust chit-chats on the telephone? 

131 A Absolu 1 ely. 

1:; avera 

0 Would you say that ou think ou talk to him on 

8 

e once a month, once a wee 1 ? What i. rnd of ballpark 

.r6lfigure. 

A I’m not even sure it’s once a month. But l’s a 

i ‘i i relationship that I know Frank Carter is there and I’m 

i is!thinkin about him, he knows where I am. he’s thinking about 

:3o!rne an 8 we’re both running ten ways to Sunday. But when I 

::: 1 think of something that he can do, I call hrm up. 

,~_. Q Now, let’s o back to - how did ou leave it with 

~~~iMonica when y ou conclu c? ed your rneeti xyh!ter on the 19th? 

;34 !What did you ell her the next step would 

iZ5: A That I would find her a lawyer and woutd make 

Page 158 to Page 163 
Vernon Jordan. 313198 xMAxml 

1727 

Page 164 

1: larrangements for she and the lawyer to get together. 

;z’ Q So you indicated to her in essence that you or a 

131 lawyer would be In touch wdh her. 

A No that I would be in touch with her about the 

i”,, lawver. Not that the lawyer would be in touch with her. I 

i 6 j would be in touch with her. 

Q You 

P 

enonally. Now, from the time that she left 

our office until the rme you called Frank Carter, roughly 

ow much time do you think went by? 

[lOI A 

Q 

I think I called Frank Carter on the same day. 

But on that day, was there some period of time. 

/ :: i like whether it be an hour or several hours before you called 

[ 13 1 Frank Carter. or did she literal1 

[ 14 1 picked up the phone and call J him? 

leave the office, you 

A Don’t know the answer to that. Whatever was oing 

[:zion Monica Lewinsky was not the only thing on my agenda. V3as 

r 17 1 not the only thing that I had to attend to that day. 

(18 1 Whatever else was on my calendar I don’t know, but at some 

(19 1 point I found the time to call Frank Carter and make an 

[zolappointment for her and I think it was -well, you know when 

1211 It was. It was December 22nd. 

Q In between Monica’s leavin 

I::lcalling Frank Carter, did 

the office and your 

r,- 

ou call or speak f o anyone else 

rzdjabout the ~onr~o-ewrns y Issue? 

1251 

Page 165 

0 Now, when 

fy 

ou caked Mr. Carter, obviously that was 

I3 i a telephon; cal;;r,en you ust spoke to him, correct? 

I31 

I41 .Q You would have called him from your office to his 

f<loffilX? ,_,. -- 

I61 

171 

2 Yes. 

Qkav What did vou tell him? 

ou’d be interested 

Did you guys schedule a time? Now, this - looking 

:ziat my calendar, the 19th again is a Friday. 

171 A Right. 

Q And if it helps you out with times, to kind of keep 

:“,i it in perspective and let me just check - I believe there is 

:O 1 a record from your office that indicates that you would have 

2 11 met with Ms. Lewinsky. that she came by 

yzlthe day, 4:47, 5:00, somethrng like that. cy 

our office late in 

oes that sound 

2 3 1 like it could be accurate? 

24; A Which da ? 

25j Q On the 1 g th. 

Page 166 

[ll A I don’t know what time. 

Q I guess what I’m t 

iiicalled Mr. Carter, if it were late in r 

ing to get at is when you 

he day on Friday, 

~4 1 would you have had any other discussions with him between 

15lthat Fnday when you called him, which IS the 19th of 

[61 December, and the 22nd, which is the Monda 

[ 7 1 you actual1 

x 

went over wrth Ms. Lewrnsky an dy 

when, I believe, 

met him. 

[8! I don’t think we had a conversation in the 

[ 9 1 interregnum. 

Q 

I:yisay the call lasted t at you had wrth Mr. Carter on Fnday? 

Okay. Did you and Mr. Carter - how tong would you 

A Very short. “I’ve got a client, I’m going to bring 

I :‘,i her, give me a time.” He ave me a time, see you then. 

[I41 Q And so jus 9 a matter of a mmute or two. 

[I51 A 

Q 

A matter of making the arrangements. 

i :;iyou went to 

Did you speak to anyone between that call and when 

o meet with Mr. Carter when Ms. Lewinsky was 

[ 18 1 with you on #I onday, the 22nd - 

[I91 A What do you mean, did I s 

Could F I finish my question. 

ak to anyone? 

[‘Ol 0 

1211 A All right. 

Q Did ou speak to anyone from the time you ut the 

1::: hone down on Fn ay, the lgth, to the time 

[4 1 e-,. ewinsk on Monday, the 22nd, about - we 

.J ou went with .{ fis. 

call It the 

[251Monica ewrnsky issue, namely, the fact that she’d been 

Page 167 

. 

;;.&rnaed you were ~OII$I to Eet her an attorney et cetera’ 

A ’ Yes. I ta ke to t e Prestdent of the’unrted 

. 3 Q 

:. 

When did you speak to the President7 

A Friday night. the 191h. There was a drnner at the 

;E:White House to which we were Invited. Mrs. Jordan and I, and 

;‘-we did not go to the dinner. we kept a previous engagement 

lace else. But subsequent to our dinner, we went to 

my wife wanted to sor? 

112 .of visit with people at the party And so we went to the 

[ 14 ‘White House, we entered the ate that takes 

3, 

ou to the 

; : 5 :drplomatic entrance. That is, t e gate to the XI hite House 

; 16: roper nght at the southwest lawn. And en route, I called 

Ele usher and said to the usher that Mrs. Jordan and I were 

i iz i en route to the White House. I gave him the tag number of my 

! I 9: automobile and we were let in and we drove around to the 

[rr,:diplomatic entrance to the White House and Mrs. Jordan went 

rz:;uostairs to where the partv was, I went upstairs to the 

i2:ipnvate qugen. - 

!77> That’s the residence? 

L--. 

A The residence. And I must have spent ten minutes 

~~~$-ith him at that time alone and then Mrs. Jordan and the 

Page 166 

II iguests from Nevada showed up and we all talked for a little 

12 lwhile and then we left. 

0 Okay. Now, let me break this down some. First of 

13!all. at the time when you met with Ms. Lewrnsky, as of that 

;5:time. were your plans for later that night to go to the White 

{ 6: House dinner or not to go? 

We had deckned the White House dinner invitation 

else. So the plan 

And when the 

1 i 4 jstrarght up2 the residence. 

,y’:: Now how drd vou know that the President had left 

)s i i the party aid was upstairs? (s that something you were 

~2: yinformed of when you first got there or you were told in the 

~~5~rnll beforehand or how did you know to go to the quarters to 

!14:meet up with the President. r_)c- ,--, A When I got into the White House, I asked was the 

Page 169 

[ I : President at the party or had he gone upstairs. I was 

[ 2 1 Informed that the President had gone upstairs and was 

r3jexpecting me u stairs. 

[I: Q gid you when ou did meet u$ with the President 

[s: indicate that you needed to ta r k to him alone. 

___ __- 

Page 164 to Page 169 

-.___ 

olcstafr 
1728 

- ICA 

Page 170 

Vernon Jordan. 3/3/99 XMAX129I 

.:i you had met with Monica Lewrnsky, what did you say about a 

:: isubpoena? 

;3: A I said, “She’s been subpoenaed, Mr. President.” 

:4‘ 0 Now, at that point, what, if anything, did the 

i 5 i President say to you? 

:Ei A He listened. 

:7’ 0 Okay. So during this entire time that you’re just 

! 3 {telling us what she said and he wasn’t Interrupting you as 

j slyou were s 

ge 

aking. 

My experience going way back to the transition IS 

iz i that this president knows when to listen and when to talk and 

: 1: iso he lisiened 

113) Cl Okay. 

A Oka 

I::/ listened I think x 

? And I explained all of this to him. And he 

wit 

i filthis. And I put the 

some - dazzlement. some amazement at 

uestion to him. And he said - 

:17: Q Whl was the question you asked? 

A “Mr. President have you had sexual relations with 

ij;iMonica Lewinsky?” The President said, “No, never.” 

:‘o! Q All right. Now, first of all, when you say that he 

: 2: lwas listening with amazement, what do you base that on? Body 

: 2~ ! language or something he satd? 

[23i A ua e. I said he was listening. But the 

~24 1 bod 

Body Ian 

:?sjthe i, PC? 

Ian ua e, especia 89. y a thus nobon that would he leave 

rrst a y at the end of his term, I mean - 

[: lof whether he knew prior to tne night that you were just 

:~;tellina htm. the 191h. that Montca miaht be a wetness In the 

i J i Pauld Jones case? 

!;’ ‘ A I never asked him that questron. 

!ii Q Whv not? 1-1 

I61 A It didn’t matter It was of no moment to me 

[71 Cl Well, 

[s lwas subpoenaed in t 8 

ou were surprised when you learned that she 

e Paula Jones case, correct? 

191 A Yes. Rtght. 

Q And I thank ycu told us earlier today before the 

~i~llunch break that when you sooke to Betty Curne back on the 

[:zjBth, 91h, whatever of December and Monrca Lewrnsky on the 

r?3!8th. 91h. 10th. 11th. whatever rt was, and the President 

1: 4 1 between the 11 th and 191h. it’s something that you would have 

r?s]expected that the 

[i6]She could be a w i 

would tell you, namely. if they knew that 

ness In the Paula Jones case, correct? 

1171 A 

ilsi 

Mav I sav somethino? 

Q Yes. sir.- - 

1191 A I have great faith and confidence in Bill Clinton 

tzoland I had it before he was attorney general and before he was 

[:~]govemor and before he was the nominee and before he was 

[22 J resident. And so I had no reason to question him about what 

[231 Re told me or what he did not tell me. 

The one question that I wanted answered was the 

i:liquestion that I asked and I got an answer to it, which is the 

Page 171 

.Z 5 1 accepted my friend’s statement. 

Page 174 

II Isac question t,hat I had asked MO+ Lewinsk 

izlfett d my oblrgation or my responsibrlrty to say. 4 

And I never 

[ 4 1 occurred to me to do that. I%%%%% tt%ust never 

id you 

13 1 know that she was lrkely to 

[51 Q When you asked the President the same question th 

[6] ou had asked Monica, name 

x ad a sexual relationship with ‘\: 

words to the effect of have you 

[71 er or sexual relations, did 

telyou have in mind the same concept I’m talking about you 

[ 91 adrvidually, settin 

1101 have thought, of w ?l at sexual relations are or a sexual 

aside what the President may or may not 

[ 111 relationship was, that you did when you asked it to Monica 

[ 12 1 Lewinsky? 

1131 A Yes. 

1141 Q What was that? 

A I’ve explained that to you 

I:zito ex lain that a ain. I have ex 

[17!couI$as hones!/: 

lained to 

as I could. w i at I aske 

[ 18 1 about sexual rela Ions and what I asked the President abou 

I 19 1 sexual relations and I do not view it as my responsibility to 

[20] have two gopteeat.efine for me what that meant. 

12! .--, j 

I??] x Okay? 

Q I am not aski 

i::jthey had of that term, nor am “9 

you what definition you thought 

askrng you whether you asked 

[:s 1 them to define that term. What I’m asking you is when you 

Page 172 

Q Other than the words. “No. never.” did he sav 

he mav’have asked me who wa: it. was he a qood 

!c,la 

: 7 1 tha “r 

er. and I said:“lt’s the same la er I got for Maggie - 

Maggie didn’t use ” And he sar Fine.” And then we 

y., 

! 3 1 went on to talk abl 

[ C+I hearina oeoole an 

::01 

---. ..- ..- --.- 1 

out somethina else and bv thattime we were 

d it was end&d: * 

- Q’ 

i 1: 1 meeting? 

What else did you go on to talk about at that 

::2j A Primarily Enkine Bowles. 

.:3’ Q And the whole issue of whether he was aoina to stay 

iiijon board? 

,.d. A That’s cornact. That was a 

::6: 0 Did you at any point ask the resident or say words 

: ::! to the effect to inquire whether he knew at the time - 

::3; A I drd not. 

[I+: Q 

:201 A 

Let me just finish it for the record. 

I’m trying to antici ate, counsel. 

[2?! Q That’s fine. Whet K er he knew at the time he spoke 

: 2 z 1 to you between the 11 th and 19th and he indicated he was 

~23 laware of Monica Lewinsky’s situation in trying to get a job, 

[:althat he was then aware that you were helping, because you had 

: 2 5 1 told him that, did you ever ask him anything along the lines 

Page 175 

[ 11 used that term, what did 

[21 A fy. 

ou subjectively mean by it? 

Sexual re aborts. Period. And I don’t define it 

131 any other way than sexual relations and I’m not 

t 4 1 you want to take me. I did not get into that and B 

oing where 

do not 

t51get into that, counsellor and I’m not going there. 

161 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q 

iii thought nothing more spe 

191 relations. 

You’re say!n&t;;;,yo,u,:ho;~ht~ E4r;rdan. you 

A 

I :i i mind went. 

Sexual relations or relationships is as far as my 

My mind is not where your mind IS or your mind 

tizlis, my mind is sexual relations because I do not - I can 

[ 13 1 only define that for myself. And that’s my business. Me. 

114 ~YOU know? Period. 

I151 Q Is there a particular reason - 

r161 Pardon me for interrupting. 

[I71 MR. BIENERT: That’s all right. 

I181 MR. WlSENBERG: 

119 jor three questions? 

Do you mind if I ask him just two 

I201 MR. BIENERT: No no. Go ahead. 

1211 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

1221 0 Is there a particular reason when you asked that 

123 ~you focused on the word sexual relations or relatronship? I 

~24 Imean, did you formulate ahead of time that you were going to 

[zslask it that way or was it more of an instinctual thing? 
1729 

- 

Page 176 

Vernon Jordan. 313l98 

b- --_ 

Page 179 

;-was Vernon 

-z way I asked the auestrdn. 

0 Wmout any particular forethought, In other words, 

; i I this IS the restron you’re going to ask? 

Q 

I asked the questron. Period. 

Wrthout any particular forethought of how you were 

-i!:gorng to phrase it7 

__ A I donY know whether I had forethought or not. I 

zasked the uestron. 

. __ -. a I take it you weren’t intentionally trying to ask 

:i -thus questi? in a vague way. 

_~. I asned the question. Period. That’s all I pan 

:z:tell you. I asked the 

9, 

uestion. I told you how I asked the 

:- yquestion. And I don’t now what else I can do with that. 

2: :words that were va ue - 

-.i- 

--_ A Wa’ r? a minute. Wait a minute, counsellor. Do not 

Page 177 

:: :put intent here. I’m telling you I asked a ,question. There 

::‘rs no premeditation, there is no inte,nt. I just asked the 

:z:questron. I have no basis upon which to have Intent. I have 

:: -no basis upon which to cross-examine. I said, “Did you have 

; I : sexual relations with the President?” Period. 

Q So if you had no intent - I take it that among 

:-.other things you had no intent to ask something in a vague or 

!r:amorphous wa 

.i’ A 7 did not. For me, asking about sexual relations 

::::rs not vague. 

,... Q So the answer would be no, you didn’t intend to ask 

: :I: it in a vague way. 

‘-7‘ A I m not expressin 

:‘:tellino vou how I asked the aues 

intent. That’s your word. I’m 

._.;- ..;. 

.--. a ’ _ -Q 

,. r. _ c A 

YOU didnY say to yourself, for instance - 

::-jquestion. 

I didn’t say _ anything to myself. I just asked the 

. _ 

“:- 

ifi:onginall 

0 In other words, no forethought, like I asked you 

No parhcular forethought about your 

:r:.phraseoo y. 

._. : 

.--., yw You know, you all prepared for this 

;:I: Interrogation - 

.--. Q Actually - 

:Z;‘ A Excuseme- 

.-- Q Actually, I’m not prepared at all, Mr. Jordan. 

Page 178 Page 181 

r- A I think that’s probabl 

:::point is that I did not prepare mysel r 

right. My point is - my 

:I -as a la 

to ask Monica Lewinsk 

er these uestions and so intent, I don’t know wha 

“r, 14. 

1 

: i .vou’re ta krna abo . intent. I iust asked the auestion. 

1: ! want to get the answer yes or no? 

(2: A 

[3! Q 

I answered a question. I asked a question. 

And 

A And 

i:;say something. 

r 

ou got - 

got an answer. I would, if I may, like to 

is;Period. _ 8;‘ 

-. BY MR. BIENERT: 

._. Q Let me ask 

i : iwe were questioning you fz 

ou this. Earlier, you indicated when 

a out the circumstances of asking 

: s-that 

9r 

uesbon of Monica Lewinsky, I believe you sati words to 

;:: :the e ect of I didn’t even really want to know the details 

- - -of the answer or words to that effect. 

j ff icharacterrzation? 

Is that a fair 

Page 176 to Page 181 

;: T issue of Intent IS not an nsue for me I asked the question 

::.a$ best I could with no intent, no premeditated thought. no 

; 3 i legislatrve histo 

rI just asked the question and I was 

i 4 lsatisfied wrth bo h their answers 

:i‘ 0 You indicated earlier about not wanting to get or 

isjeven know too many details. Is it accurate 

:T laskin 

9 

the question wrthout givrng it much thou 

i 3 Idirect y, to cover yoursetf so you could know w 

r SI: could move on to the next staqe? That’s a yes or no 

[ ; 2 :question. z you didn’t - - 

I have no need to wver myself. I have no need to 

iii j cover myself. I have done nothin wrong. And so to cover 

[ 13 1 m self, what are you talkrng abou ? 

rlil;tarking about - 

8 I don’t know what you’re 

1151 .--I Q What I’m talking about is - 

il6: A 

Q 

c&er myself: 

Well let me explain. Did the answer that either 

i:iione of them would have given 

[ : 9 Iwhat you would do next? 

to that question matter as to 

Page 180 

111 I don’t know the answer to that. The fact is I asked the 

r z lauestion. I aot the answer. I asked the President the 

i3jquestion’arid I ot the answer. 

i4: 0 %nd onca ou got that answer, you felt like you 

[s 1 could move on in terms o r 

[ 6 j attorney. 

helprng Ms. Lewinsky get an 

A I had already told her that she needed counsel. 

I;: I had already told her that I would help her 

[ 9 j That was done. 8 

et a lawyer. 

I asked the 

[ lolquestion. 

But I did satisfy myself an 

I don’t know what your intent was when you said 

1111 wver myself. 

0 And let me just say - because if that’s a poor 

i is i choice of words I want to withdraw that because I don’t mean 

ou had anything to hide. The point 

maybe this IS - I can only do it by 

(61 Q 

[ 7 1 a statement. 

Well, let me finish up and then we can let you say 

181 A I think it’s very important - 

191 Q 

A 

At this point, we want to move on. 

- that I say something. And I want to say it in 

I: i i response to your word cover and it’s very important to me to 

~12 lsay this and, with your permission, I’d like to say it. 

Q Well let me move on and ask the questions and then 

r::iwe can address whether you want to make a statement, but this 

[ 151 is not the time for a statement. And what I would ask you to 

[ lsldo, as I think 

(17 1 that I don’t p x 

ou’re very adept at doing, is making sure 

words in your mouth because I can tell you 

[ 18 J that’s not my rn~te;i 

1191 

IIii 

Q But it? use words that you don’t agree with in a 

% 

uestion. by all means make clear that you don’t agree with 

122lt ose words. Is that fair? 

I231 A Proceed. 

0 Okay. Now, since December 191h when you had these 

~~:~wnversatrons, have you ever between December 19th and today 

_ 

OICStarr 
1730 

BSA Vernon Jordan, 3l3B8 

_ 

Page 182 Page 185 

: : 1 had any conversations with anybody other than us here today 

; z 1 about what IS meant by the term sexual relattons or sexual 

: 31 relationshi ? 

!ji ! 

Cl 

No, you’re the only person to ask me that. 

You ve never discussed that wrth the President in 

izjthe hme between the 19h and now3 

‘7; A No. No. 

ie- Q Now, other than speaking with the President on the 

i CI i 191h. did you have any discussions with anyone else? 

::o!exdudin , for example. your wife. about Monica Lewmsky’s 

t ;: ; bein 

; :: ,with&s.%Lewinsky on Monday the 22nd? 

su poenaed in the Paula Jones case prior to meetrng up 

::31 A Did I have a conversation with - 

Ii41 Q Anyone else. 

::5: A AboutQ The Monica Lewinsky issue, namely, her being 

i i :i subpoenaed in the Paula Jones case. 

A My primary conversation was with Frank Carter and 

/ :; j once I referred her to Frank Carter. it was out of m hands. 

iIi;the 22nd. 

Q Well, you referred her to Frank Ca x. er In person on 

[121 A That’s right. 

Q And you told us about a conversation that you had 

II:iwith the President on the 19th, correct? 

1251 A That’s right. 

A Mos: wmpanres are closed 

Q So of the answer no? 

.:. A The answers no. 

Q The conversation that ou would have had wrth her 

:i:prior to her wmmg !o your office to te iy I her that you’re 

.i: orng to take her to meet Frank Carter when she wmes over - 

;I- % o you have that in mind? 

A You mean when it took place? 

Q Yes sir. 

I . 

--. 

.--. 

.._. 

--. 

A I don’t know. 

0 How Ion 

A It doesn ? 

drd that conversation last? 

take long to say ‘VYe have a( 10 : 2 : : 

‘1: appointment, if you’ll come to my office, I will take you 

: 1;: there.” So I would think it was a very short wnversahon. 

.. :- 

.--_ Q And as best you caniecall,. there wasn’t any 

::e:discussionAof an ‘rig other than that dunng that call. 

.__. p omma to talk about. 

.-:’ 

.--, Q So the-answer is there was no further discussron? 

_-.. T_ <. A That’s my recollection. 

,-_. Q 

z;[ 

Now. when you took her to the car, how long were 

)‘I; ou in the car? How long would you say it took for you guys 

o drive over to Carter’s office from your office? 

A 

:r;iAvenue to 

Mid-morning Washington, you go DuPont Circle. Mas 

13th Street. ten minutes. 

125: Q Dii you have any discussions -well, why don’t you 

Page 183 

Q 

iiion the 19th with 

M? question is other than the ori 

rank Carter, the President on 9 

inal conversation 

he 191h. and 

[ 3 1 Monica Lewinsky on the 19th, did you discuss Monica Lewinsky 

[ 4 1 and her subpoena in the Paula Jones case with anyone else 

(51 before going to Frank Carter’s office on the 22nd? 

A I believe that I had a conversation in m office 

!7”l]with my counsel, Mr. William Hundle and I had a vis from 

1 a; Bob Bennett and I don’t know when &at visit was. It r!ay 

! 91 here, I don’t know. But Bob Bennett came to my office at 

::olsome point. 

[??I Q And you believe it may have been during that - 

1: 2 1 what amounts to a weekend? 

[13! A It wasn’t that weekend. It was some time - it was 

; 14 1 some time after I had taken Ms. Lewrnsky to see Mr. Carter. 

; : j 1 It may have been even - I think this was in January. 

Q Okay. So for now. though, I’m trying to focus just 

! it ion that in essence what amounts to the weekend. Friday, 

! f 9 1 the 1 sth, throu h the 22nd. 

;:3: A She answer to that is no. 

[?O: Q How did ou arrange to get together with 

: 2: IMS. Lewinsky to go see t r. Carter on the 22nd? 

“,‘i 

;;;;a 

A I called her and told her that we had an 

ointment at such and such time and that if she came to my 

124 10 Rp ce, I would take her to introduce her to Mr. Carter. She 

’ ,--. -c 1 came to my office, I have a car and a driver, we went down 

Page 184 

[ I 1 the stairs to m 

[z jdrove us to 13 r 

car, we both got in the back seat, my driver 

h and G or whatever, to Mr. Carter’s office. 

[ 31 I went upstairs. I said hello to Frank, introduced Monica 

c 4 1 Lewinsky to Frank Carter and shook his hand and left. 

!5! Q First of all, how long did you meet with Ms. 

[ 61 Lewinsky at your office before you went down and got in the 

[7] car? 

A 

iziand we left. 

She came to my ofhce. I put on my hat and my coat 

Q Did you have an discussion substantive 

iiildiscussions. with her about an 

i I: jsubpoena? 

vr. _ hrng _ 

in relabon to the 

;:3; A No. We didn’t talk about the subpoena. She wanted 

: 14 1 to know about her ‘ob. 

Q Dib 

i 1:; have been at your if?& on the 22nd, about the job 

talk to her at that meeting which would 

I 17 1 situation? 

i181 A 

; i 9 1 take your time. 

I told her I’m sure it was coming, to be patient, 

(201 Q Anything beyond that? 

(211 A No: - - 

12’: 0 Did 

[ 251 through the 22nd t 

ou make any additional calls from the 19th 

w en you met with her about her job? 

!24j A That was a weekend. 

I251 0 Yes, sir. 

--___ -___ .___ ___ 

OlCStarr 

XuAx(31) 

Page 186 

:I-tell us what you talked about durin .the drive over with her. 

.-. 

_-_ A She was wnceme 8 about her job and that’s my 

-?.rewllection of what we talked about. 

:(: 

I_. Q The job. 

.=. A The job search. Just another time to reassure her 

:~labout -that this was going to work out, I thought, but it 

-. took time. 

f!j Q Now. at this point in time, 

: 3: the people we discussed before, which I t r; 

ou had put in calls to 

ink were 

: :: : Halperin - 

.._. 

_--. A Peter Georgesw. ..^, 

.-.._ Q And Fairbum? 

.- 1’ 

.--. A 

:1:. 0 

And the lady at American Express. 

You made a reference - I thank it was even before 

::s:lunch to at some point one of the persons from one of these 

::,-:wmpantes. I believe Ms. Fairbum indicatin 

::-.they didn’t they had anything for Ms. Lewrns 9, y, IS that 

to you that 

;:i.wnect? 

,.-. _ 7 A Yes. but that was after an interview. And I don’t 

:I:: know precisely when that interview took place and I cannot 

:x: tell you,precrsely when Ms. Farrburn called me back. but 

:X : you ve interviewed her and I’m sure that you have that 

::3: information. 

:;:: Q How were 

:rs:Lewinsky. for example. d .$ ou apprised of whether or not Ms. 

rntervrew with someone or was? 

Page 187 

:: ; Was that through Ms. Lewinsky or through the people at the 

:: : companies? ‘_. 

_-. A She told me when she was havin 

9 

interviews. 

:q :told me when she took the Burson-Mansteller tes She told 

:z:me th+ she had “n Richard Halperin~ she told me that she 

She 

: 6 ! was inrervrewing wnn someoooy else at - she was pretty good 

.--about keeoino me LID to date. :,: .*__ ‘0 - Now. when you took her to Mr. Carter’s offia. you 

:>:rndicated you introduced her, basically said this is Monica, 

: I:: this is Mr. Carter, and then you left? I.. , 

.--. A That’s right. 

.._. j--: Q Were you present for any substantive discussions - 

,_ :. 

.--, 

114: Aa No. 

A 

- with Mr. Carter on that day? ‘.:- I--, I was not. Counsel, I was not present for any 

::;;substantive discussion. 

-__ _ ~_~ _. __ 

Page 182 to Page 187 
1731 

asA 

Page 188 

Vernon Jordan, 313198 

: .circumstance as a lawyer. 

Q So IS the answer then that your expectation 

1. was you’d have nothing to do with at least the legal 

-;;endofA There was no basis for me to have an expectation 

-, took her to Frank caner. 

6; that I would do an htng on the legal end. That is why I 

but he reassured me that he had 

:: lspoke to her. over the phone or in person. attempt In your 

:: !vrew to try to o back, not necessanly expltcrtly. but to 

: 3 Isay words tha 9 made you think that - 

11: A No. 

[5: 

16: 2 No. 

- that she was trying to go back on that? 

(7: Q Your answer ts no? 

I61 A 

!91 0 

My answer a no. 

Now ou wanted to make a statement about the 

[lo 1 questions having to # o wrth old you feel covered and I want 

[i 11 to make sure you have an opportunity to do that. /. ^ !A-1 A 

Cl 

I’d lust as soon not do it. Thank you. 

Okay. Then let me ask you a question. The record 

i::!will reflect your own phraseol 

[ 1s i in answer to some quesbons “% a 

y in answering questions but 

out this when you got yobr 

i I 6 1 answer from, the President and/or Ms. Lewinsky at one point I 

i; 7 1 think you sard ! satisfied m 

~1s lbelieve ou said I had wha 

risjthat? vx, 

ylf; at anotherpOlnt, I 

I needed. Wha do you mean by 

rzojmyself? 

en you say I had what I needed or I sattsfied 

A I had an answer. I had an answer to whether or 

I.$inot there had been sexual relations and the answer was no. 

: :; : things under control. 

.- :- 0 As best you can tell us a timeframe on that, after 

‘ii Januarv when? I mean like rioht after the first or a couole 

: i I: of weeks into it? 

--:’ --2 A The 6th or the 7th or somethin like that. 

.- >. Q Other than the conversation w P 

: z i i 19th. the face-to-face discussion 

h Mr. Carter on the 

ou had with him on the 

: :; 122nd, when you would have int rdl uced him to Ms. Lewinsky, did 

:::;you have any other discussions with Mr. Carter about 

: : 3 ! anything? 

:341 A Between the 19th - 

::5: Q Between then and. say, the 6th - no. Between the 

Page 191 

Page 189 Page 192 

: : 122nd of Janua when ou made the introduction - 

._: 

.-. MR.%lTTMA?N: The 22nd of December. 

:31 BY MR. BIENERT: 

:41 Q Of December. And the 6th or 7th of Janua when he 

: 5 Igave you an update about the motion to 

x 

%d 

:_: 

‘6lyou have ry d;t,ussrons wrth Mr. Carte 

uash. et cetera, 

; ? .I 0 In between that time, how many times, if at all. 

: e~did you speak with Ms. Lewtnsky? 

:I>: A I think maybe she called and said that she had a 

: :I Jgood meeting with the President - I’m sorry, she had a ood 

: 1: lmeeting with Mr. Carter that she liked hrm and that she 

:: 3 ! felt some sense of comfort with his representation. 

R ad 

I’m 

-14 1 certain that that ha pened. 

.___ Q Ancfyou believe that would have been fairly shortly 

f : i i after their original meeting on December 22nd? 

.- A 

.--~ THE FOREPERSON: 

It ma have been the same day. 

’ “I minutes ‘“~<ev18E~BERG: 

Gentlemen, you have about five 

.--i 

f E I i housekeepin 

I need to butt in here to do some 

thin s here. 

.__. 

--. B?MR. +VISENBERG: 

.--_I 

ii I: of the 

0 First I’ve ot a question, Mr. Jordan, from one 

9( 

rand jurors, a slrg ?lt vanatron of a question that 

: z 5 : was as ed earlier. Do you have any reason to think that 

111 A Period. 

Q If she had said - if either one of them had said 

iiithere were sexual relationships - 

I41 A 

Q 

They did not say that, 

151 

[ 6 ] needed? 

But d they had, would you have had what you 

L71 A 

,s,needed, Q 

That’s a h pathetical. I don’t know 

I61 You don 4 t now if you would have had what you 

, _, .___-_. 

ilO] A I did not ask that question. I don’t have the 

[:I Ianswer. and I’m not goin 

9 

to answer, again,,for the second 

I 1 z I time today, a hypothebca based on somethrng that did not 

;131happen. 

:143 MR. WISENBERG: I have no further questions right 

;151now. 

!I61 BY MR. BITTMAN: 

!17:. Q Have you ever seen Ms. Lewinsky’s signed affidavit 

; 1s 1 in the Paula Jones case? 

;I91 A 

t20i 

I think she showed it to me 

Q When? 

1211 A Obviously afler she signed it. the exact time, I 

[?zldon’t remember but I did see it. Yes. 

:33; Q 

;z.+lher? 

So this was a personal meeting that you had with 

;151 A Awhat? 

Page 190 

.: !when ou asked Ms. Lewinsk about sexual relations, the 

-: lsexua r.. relatronshrp question, K, at she could have construed 

3~ it kind of in relation to a future deposition in the Jones v. 

j 4 j Clinton case? 

:!I: A 

I p i long a 

Q 

I don’t have any idea about that. 

Okay. You might have answered this how 

:?ioffice. ? 

proximately was the car ride to Frank Carters’ 

A 

: j4ifrorn basically DuPont Circ 

Mid-momin& - I 4 ‘ust answer that. Mid-morning, 

to 3th and G, ten minutes. ...l Q During the ride or during the time before the 

iii i ride when you were with Ms. Lewinsky, did she talk at all 

::3labout the subpoena and/or relationsht with the President 

: : 4 1 a 

% 

ain? You said you all talked about he job. did she talk p.. * 

: :s;a out the subpoena and/or her relationship with the 

: 16 ] President? 

Did she ever, by the way, at any time that you ever 

Page 193 

!I1 Q 

~2 I meeting? 

This was a personal meeting, a face-to-face 

I31 - A Yes. 

i 

I:1 

Q When? 

A Some time In January. 

I61 Q Some time In January. 

171 A Ri ht 

[El Q At?er ;he signed it. 

I91 A 

Q 

She said, “I signed the affidavit.” 

ilO1 Where was thts meeting? 

I111 A My office. 

ilZ1 Q 

1131 A 

In your office. 

Q 

The only place I’ve ever met with her. 

Did you see any unsigned version of that affidavit 

i ::i before youAsaw~~ signed version? 

llfil .--, 

0 

i : l i going to include in t 

Dtd ou ever discuss with Ms. Lewinsky what she was 

!I e affidavit? 

iS:ithat is no. 

A I was not Ms. Lewinsky’s tawyer. The answer to 

Q 

i:: 1 to be included in the affidavit? 

Did you ever discuss with Mr. Carter what was going 

1231 A I have great faith and confidence in Mr. Carter’s 

j34 lcompetence as a lawyer and little faith and confidence in my 

r~5jcompetence as a lawyer in this kind of proceeding. The 

--__ __-- 

Page 188 to Page 193 OICStan 
1732 

BSA Vernon Jordan, 313198 

__-- ~_._. -~ 

Page 194 

; : Ianswer to that IS no. (1. Q So you never drscussed with Mr. Carter nor MS 

i; i Lewrnsky any drafts of the affidavit. 

!41 A There’s no basis for me to do that. 

(5’ MR. WlSENBERG: 

[ 6 j need the witness to in 

Bob, is there a document that we 

any 

[ 7 1 that was handed ove0 

way authenticate, the document 

[Sl MR. BI-lTh’LAN: No. 

:91 MR. WlSENBERG: 

[lolnotfinished. 

Okay. And I understand that we’re 

!:I; MR. BITTMAN: Correct. 

;121 THE WITNESS: 

Madam Forelad 

Could somebody be kind enough to - 

I::jTo give me some 

ma 

r* z 

be it’s you, I don’t know. 

parame ers a 

j?sllong you ex ct me to be here? 

out when I’m next here, how 

i161 I l!&e to leave on Thursday for Africa and so I 

(ITJWOUM like to know what the deal is. 

llS1 MR. BIENERT: Well. as I discussed with Mr. Hundley 

[ 19 1 on two or three occasions, we would finish up with you on 

[zo]Thursday. He had asked me - 

i_‘l] THE WITNESS: When? 

122;. MR. BIENERT: Well, we’ll start first thing which 

[23llS - 

i241 THE FOREPERSON: 9:15. 

L251 MR. BIENERT: 9:15. I believe - you know, we’re 

Page 195 

2&J: 

i3ithat. We beg1 

But, actuall 

In at 9:15, but witness nom\ally dyV 

let me clarify 

oesn’t come in 

14 1 until we have our housekeeping, JO 9:30 would be more correct 

[ 5 1 for your time. 

[61 THE WITNESS: 

MR. BIENERT: 

Thank you. 

And I believe where we are we’ll go 

iiithrough lunch and into the afternoon and we’ll finish with 

!slyou on Thursda 

[lOI MR. &MAN: What time must ou leave Mr. Jordan? 

!ll! THE WITNESS: I have to be on Y he 9:30 shuttle 

[ :z 1 Friday night. 

I131 MR. BlTiMAN: 

[Ii] MR. BIENERT: 

Friday ni ht. 

Well, we il be finished. 

(151 MR. BITTMAN: You’ll be on the shuttle Thursday. 

[16: THE WITNESS: 

:i?]here. 

At least the grand jury won’t be 

MR. BlllMAN: 

I:i;not going to be our fault. 

If you’re not on the shuttle. it’s 

MR. WISENBERG: 

l?iThursday momin at 9:30? 

May the witness be excused until 

i:z; THE FaREPERSON: 

r23jmoming. 

Yes, he may. Until Thursday 

[24! THE WITNESS: 

;zslday. 

Thank you very much. Have a good 

Page 196 

111 MR. BIENERT: Thank ou. 

I;; 

e witness was excuse 

% 

8 .) 

ereupon. at 4:3O pm.. the takin 

[ 4 1 in the presence of a full quorum of the Grand 3 

of testimony 

[ s~conduded.) 

ury was 

(61 

t.*.* 

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(91 

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Ill1 

1121 

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(161 

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XMAXpw 

___ 

Page 194 to Page 196 
1733 

i+Jr ; 

COYTLWTS 

YO. “J-7 LlHAng ot C.l.pimrn UllS 142 

IO. VJ-8 Notic. ot ar*r.q. 162 

MO. VJ-9 PC.,, ,L.Im..nL by Vernon Jor4.n 199 

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PROCEEDINGS 

Whereupon. 

VERNON E. JORDAN, JR. 

was called a~ a timess and, after having been duly sworn b) 

the Foxperson of the Grand Jury. was examined and testified 

as follows: 

EXAMINATION 

MR. BIENERT: Mr. Jordan, when we stopped on, 

I guess, Tuesday, we were right up to the timeframe on 

December 22nd when you had gone with Ms. Lwinsky to 

Mr. Carter’s office, introduced them and left_ so we’re 

going to basically pick up there. 

I have a couple of things just kind of from prior 

to that just to go over with you. 

First of all, I’ve got a couple of documents to 

show you on timing and maybe tbzy’ll help you bracka some of 

the times that you met with Ms. Lewinsky and so what I’m 

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A It says name, time of arrival, contact. It says 

Monica Lewinsky, 1257, Jordan. 

Q Is this a document that you’re not famihr with? 

It doesn’t look like a notebook or anything thar you would 

keep:’ 

A I’ve never seen it before in my life. 

Q Okay. I will represent to you that it was 

somcrhing that was provided IO us by your off% Akin Gump. 

as part of a subpoena, and then 1 would just ask you, does 

it appear LO you that this may be some sort of notebook that 

either a secretary or someone kaps track of people who come 

to visit? 

A I think that the receptionist on each floor of the 

law firm keeps a document like this, but it’s the fii time 

I’ve ever seen one. 

Q Okay. Now, as I recall, when we talked last week, 

your best rsolkhon was you had met with Ms. Lewinsky ooce 

in person, you thought, on December 8th and then you didn’t 

meet with her in person again until the day she was very 

upset, the 19th? 

MR. WlSENFSERG: Let me intemtpt to say I thought 

the testimony was that the first actual meeting was the 1 lth. 

MR. BIENERT: Okay. And that’s what I wanted to 

make sure I was clear on. Okay. 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

8 going to give you is first what we’ll mark as -- I believe il 

9 would be VI-~. so I’ll put VJ-2 and then today’s date, which 

!O is 315198. 

!I (Grand Jury Exhibit No. VI-2 was 

12 marked for identification.) 

13 BY MR. BIENERT 

14 Q First, I’ll just ask you if you recognize what 

15 document VI-2 appears to be. 

Divcrsificd Rc~otting Scrviccs. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

Page 1 - Page 4 
1734 

Page’” Vernon E. Jordan, Jr., 3-5-98 

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MR. BIJZNERT: That’s right. The 8th was the phone 

call. 

THE WITNESS: The 8th was the phone call and a 

package was delivered to me on the 8th and consistent with 

this, she was at my office on the 1 Ith. 

BY MR. BIENERTz 

Q Okay. And so if this document here has a notatio: 

of -- it says Malesky for Jordan but would you believe that 

was probably a reference to Ms. Lewinsky? 

A I have to assume some. 

Q Do you know a Monica Malesky? 

A I do not. 

Q And your recollection is that you would have seen 

Monica Lcwinsky on approximately Thursday. Daanbcr 11 th? 

A That is correct But I have not seen -- 

Q You’re not familiar with this document. 

A I’m not. No. 

Q And I’m just trying to bracket times. If this 

document shows approximately l:OO, is your memory any 

different than that time in terms of when you would have sea 

Ms. Lewinsky? 

A It is not. 

MR. BIENERT: Okay. And let’s do the same -- I 

have a similar document which we’ll mark as VJ-3.3/S/98. 

I’ll hand you that. 

Q 

A 

Q 

Page I 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. VJ-3 was 

marked for identification.) 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Have you had a chance to look at it. sir? 

I have. 

Does that document. at least on its face -- first 

of all, this is not a document you’re familiar with, conzct? 

A It is not. 

Q All right.. Does that document on its face indicate 

a date of December 19, 1997, say Monica Lewinsky, 4:47 am 

thm V. Jordan? 

A YeS. 

Q Do you believe that it may be that you saw 

Ms. Lewinsky on the 19th around 500 in the aftemoonl 

A I think that’s right 

MR. BIENERT: And then we have discussed -- I 

thought you had made a reference at one point last wk to 

your calendar would often reflect when you have meetings. 

I’m going to hand you what I’ll mark as VJ-4.3/5/98. 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. VJ-4 was 

marked for identification.) 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q And ask you, sir, and I realize this is a redacted 

page, but does it appear to say under a column Monday, 

December 22nd, Frank Carter at 1 I:OO? 

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A That is my writing. 

Page 7 

Q Okay. And so this would be a copy of a calendar 

that you’re familiar with. 

A That is my writing. There is nothing else there t0 

indicate it’s my calendar, but it’s my writing and my 

calendar looks like this. 

Q Okay. And does that appear ro&hly consistent with 

yourmemorylhatwharyouwouldba~~mawithMr.~on 

the 22nd. it would have been around 1 l:OO? 

A That’s right. 

Q And that would have been the metting you described 

for us where you went with Ms. Lewi& to Mr. Carter’s 

office. 

A That’s correct. 

Q At any time up until the 22nd, when you were 

discussing with Ms. Iminsky her feelings a&or relationship 

with the President, do you think you eva said words to her 

to the effect of “You’re in lo+ to htr? 

A 1 don’t mcaI1 suggesting to her that she was in 

love. I do recall, as I said to you, this wide-eyed 

bobby-sax type fascination, but whether I said to her “Arc 

you in love?” or “You’re in love” I don’t know. That’s a 

very difficult term to ascribe to people. But it was very 

clear to me that she was quite taken. 

Q So on the one hand, you remember that you yourself 

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perceived that she was quite taken with the F’resident. 

A Yes. 

Q Do you believe that you would have said anything to 

her conveying to her that you mogniizd that she was quite 

taken with the President? 

A I doubt it. 

Q I’m sony? 

A I doubt that I would have. 

Q As far as the companies that we talked about a 

couple of &ys ago, and that would be specifically Young & 

Rubicam, Amaican Exprss. McAndmvs & Frxbcs and Revlon a& 

Burson.dasyourlawfum,Akin~p,doaay~lworkfor 

any of them? 

A WedolegalworkforI&vlon. Wedonokgalwork 

for Yomg & Rubicam. And art do mrk for Am&can Expnss. 

We do no work for the subsidiary, Burson-Marsteller. 

Q And is this something that’s done on an ongoing 

basis? 

A Is what done? 

Q Work for those companies. Or is it more a type ol 

thingofemynowandtknsomuhhgwillcumupandyou’U 

handle is your firm? 

A W&,I’W?becnreprtsentingRevlmfOraVaylong 

timcandIhaveqcsentaiAmaicmExpmsoffmdoa,wc I 

are presmtly rrpfcsulting Amuican Express right Ilow. I am 

Pages-Page8 

Divcrsificd Rcvorting Scrviccs. Inc. (202) 296-2929 
1735 

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Page 5 

not handling the cast, but I am responsible for the business. 

It’s part of my rain making responsibility. 

So, p, we have represented American Express, we 

do reprcsa~t American ELxp~ss now. We do represent Revlor 

whether tbzre is a pending matter with Revlon at the moment 

I cannot say. I would suspect that there is something 

pending that we’re doing for Revlon at the moment. 

Q Do you keep any time sheets? 

A No. 

Q AndIassunx it’s ti sevaal years since you kept 

time sheets? 

A Igraduated. 

Q And certainly you graduated well before the 

time- we have been taIking about? 

A ThatiSCOHCCtQ Say, January of ‘97? 

A Absolutely. 

Q All right. Now, let’s go back to the 22nd. We 

were discussing you had dropped off Ms. ewinsky at 

Mr.-s. Asofihetinroftk22ndwhcnyouwouldhave 

left Mr. Carter’s office and you left Ms. Lewinsky there 

correct? 

A YCS. 

Q And I think you testified to us a few days ago that 

your intention was not to have any involvement in her legal 

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Page 10 

proceedings at that point. 

A That is comet. 

Q Did you have any understanding at all, though, of 

what strategy, if my, would be anployai wirb Ms. Lcwinsky in 

the Paula Jones case? 

A No. My job was to find her a lawyer. I found hex 

a lawyer. And wbatcver strategies or tactics or plans they 

bad for dealing with her c&um&mawasbetweensheand 

Mr. Carter. 

Q Now, you indicated, I think, last week - I keep 

saying “last week,” but on Tuesday that at some point 

Ms. Lewinsky showed you a Copy of a signed affidavit. 

A That’s Correct. 

MR EIIEIGERT: Let me mark what I believe would be 

VI-S. 1’11 put today’s date. It’s our next exhibit. I’m 

going to slide that over to you. 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. VJ-5 was 

marked for identification.) 

BY h4R. BIENERT: 

Q I would ask if you would just examine it and then 

when you’re done, let me know. 

Have you seen thas sir? 

A &-t’tmm. 

Q Now, do you recognize this document, VI-5. as one 

you’ve seen before? 

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A Yes. 

Pqc 11; 

Q And where did you see it? 

A I saw it in my office. Shown to me by Ms. Mon1c3 i 

Lewinsky. I 

Q And is this in fact a copy, the signed affidavit 

that you were referring to a few days ago? 

A Yes. 

Q Can you tell us approximately when she would have 

shown you that document? 

A It would have been somewhere around January 8th 

7th, 8th or 9th. 

Q Okay. Let’s just for a second focus on the time, 

then, in between December 224 when you dropped her off a 

Frank Caner’s offia, and then the day she showed you this 

document, which you’re saying you believe was January 7th, 

8th. or 9th, okay? 

A Yes. Ail right. 

Q So in tcnns of that timeframe, had you had any 

discussions at all with Ms. L.ewin&y on any aspect of the 

legal front with her? 

A Ms. Lcwinsky Called me. I don’t know when, some 

time during this period, and said, “I have some question 

about the draft of the affidavit.” And I suggested to htr 

that the questions about the draft of the afidavit she would 

have to address directly to Mr. Carter. 

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Q First of all, was it just one phone call that you 

recall on this topic with her? 

A I think that’s right, counsellor. There was a 

phone call where she said, “I have some problems with this 

affidavit.” And I simply suggested to her, “You have to work 

those problems out with your counsel.“ 

Q And when she would have called you, I assume you 

were at your office? 

A Yes. 

Q tit’s try to go through the call as best wecan. 

Did she tell you any details about the problems that she had? 

A No. I was not interested in the de&s. 

Again, I was not her lawyer. I had found her vay competent 

counsel. 1 was satisfied with that. And what problems 

she had with what had been drafted for her signature I felt 

was for her to work out with her Counsel and said that tc 

her. 

Q Can you -- as best you can tell us, describe or 

tell us what words she would have used to convey to you that 

she had problems with what had been drafted for her. 

A 1 don’t know which of the paragraphs she had 

problems with. What I remember is that Ms. Lwinsky views 

herself as a person who has some writing ability and a PR 

4 person ~ and so my sense was that she was looking at this 

5 document in that light and I simply said to her. “Whawer 

_- Divcrsificd Rmorting Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

Page 9 - Page 12 
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probkms you have with his document. you have v) work hem 

out with Ml. Carter.” 

TiZmn c. Joraan, Jr., j-xm4 

Page 1. 

- Mbj-Page 

Page I5 

Q In terms of the timeframe of that call. again. 

focusing on the time from, say. December 2nd throu&, let’s 

say, January 7th. can you give us a roqh ballpark of where 

in that frame you think it was? 

A I reaIIy cannot teII you when it was. I WiII ako 

tell you that at the time we discussed this document I said 

to her, “You have to talk to your lawyer about it” 

She was also saying, “You know, how about my job? 

I still want to go to New York. I still want to work. It’: 

January and I want to work.” Those two thmgs arc very clear 

to me. But exactly when those phone calls took place, I 

cannot be specific. 

Q And so in this caII with Ms. Ixwinsky. there 

wouldn’t haxe been a lot of wasted words on your pan. i 

A No. 

Q As far as this call, since it was partly about the 

affidavit and partly about the job aspect_ did you spend rnog 

ofyourtimewithheronthephoneononeortheotherof 

that? 

A The affidavit part was easily dismissible. Here 

again,astotbtjobpart,IhadthesamcproblanthatIhave 

wilhmypeopkwhothinkrhattbcycallyoutoday,you~a 

caI1 tomorrow, they will be hired the next day and that’s 

just unrealistic. 

I do remember the conversation about the aflidavit, 

I remember telling her that she had to talk to her lawyer 

about it, and msuring her. 

Here again, as I said to you on Tuesday, that there 

wassomeanxietyonherpa&somcfrustration,thatthisjob 

had not been immediately and quickly delivered. 

Q So in this phone call, then, she talked to you 

about at least two subjects. 

A Yes. 

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Q When she mentioned the affidavit. did you even know 

at that point that there was even an affidavit in play for 

her? 

Q Number one. the job. 

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A Well, when she told me, I knew. But it was logical 

that something would have taken plaa subsequent to the time 

that she had met with her counsel. 

Q So wbcn you say when she told you, you’x rrfting 

tointIEcaIL 

A Beg pardon? 

Q You’re referring to whzn she told you about the 

affidavit - 

A In the call. 

0 You mean in that call. 5 A Yes. 

Page I4 

Q And, number two, her concerns about parts of the 

affidavit. 

A Yes. 

Q Roughly how long was the call? 

A Counsel, you know, I spend a Iot of time on the 

telephone and I talk to a lot of people. Tkre are short 

calls. there are long calls. I cannot honestly say to you 

whether I talked to Ms. lxwinsky for two minutes or five 

minutes, but I think the records that you have will indicate 

exactly the length of time and that is the highest and bes 

evidence to my mind baztuse at that point as to how long the 

conversation took I really can’t tell you. 

Q And let me -- because I don’t want to keep getting 

into this as we did last week, so you understand, I 

absolutely am not trying to pin you down to a specific minute 

and what I would ask is to the ckgree that your recollection 

is that it was a shon call, a couple of minutes, versus, as 

you say, a long call of, let’s say, may& ten minutes or 

more, that’s really a11 I’m looking for. 

A What J would like to convey is that Ms. Lewinsky’s 

matter was not the only matter with which I had to deal with 

and I try to deal with most matters with some dispatch 

hecause I’ve got a long call sheet of calls to make. I’ve got 

thistodoandIhavethattodoandsoItrytodoitwith 

some dispatch Time is, for me, always of the essence. 

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A Yes. It did not come as a great surprise that she 

had some document from her lawyer. 

Q And she told you no specifics about her concerns. 

A I do not remember specifically tallring about it 

because I said to her, “You have to talk to your lawyer about 

this and not me.” I have not drafted an affidavit in 20 

years, if not longer. 

Q Did she express to you in that conversation any 

satisfaction or dissatisfaction with her attorney? 

A There was no element of dissatisfaction in the 

conversation. Tbefewucsomequzstionsshehadaboutthc 

affidavit and I said, “You taIk to your lawyer about the 

affidavit_” 

Q Anddidsheseemsatisfiedwiththatordidsht 

attempt to continue to talk to you about tht affidavit? 

A She acceptedit 

Q AlIrigI& Now,otherthantbatcaII,wcrethere 

I anyotbatimatbatyou~~bavtspolvnwitb~.~J(Y 

) hetweenDazmhcr22ndandthenwhcnmr itwasonthe7* 

) 8th or 9th of January that she shod you the final affidavit 

about the affidavit? 

1 A Yes. To the best of my recollection, there wc~t 

I callsfmmMs.LwinskyprimariIyabouthcrsenseofufgcncy 

I about employment. 

i QAndIassumc bysayingthatwhatyou’realsosaying 

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is to the best of your recollection, you don’t recall any 

conversations with her about the affidavit during that time. 

A Except this one conversation I’ve told you about. 

Q Isthatcorrect? 

A Yes. 

h4R. WISENBERG: Can I butt in? Do you mind if 1 

ask ant thing? 

MR. BIENERT: Not at al]. 

BY MR. WYSENBERG: 

Q Mr. Jordan, in this conversation you’re talking 

about, this pbooc conversation, Mr. Biawrt had asked did she 

express any dis&sfaction with Mr. Carter and you said no. 

When you m talking a couple of days ago about earlier 

conversations with her, for instancq on the 19th of December 

wknskcalledandwasvexyupsetandintearsaboutthe 

subpoena.didshcqpeartobe-whaisbementionedthc 

affidavit to you, did she appear to be concerned in any way 

in termS of what you Sensed? 

A Concerned? 

Q Yes. Presumably, she wasn’t crying like she had 

bamonthe 19th. 

A No, she was not. 

Q But other than her just saying to you that she had 

some problems with tbc draft of the affidavi?, did you sense 

any concern or worry on her part about the affidavit? 

Page 18 

A 1 sensed that this was a young lady who had had 

some experience in writing documents and was applying that 

experience to this document. 

Q Is there anything specific you remember her telliq 

you that made you have that conclusion? 

A I stopped the conversation from specifics. 

Q Okay. Were you concerned at all -- and from what 

I’m getting from yak you stopped that cold, her questions 

about the affidavit, you said that’s a matter between you and 

your lawyer. 

A That is correct. 

Q Were you concerned at all that she would be 

mentioning in the same conversation her affidavit in the 

Jones case and her desire for a job? 

A No. I was not concerned at all. As far as 1 was 

concerned, they were two very separate matters. 

MR. WISENBERG: That’s all 1 have. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q Did she anything to you that indicated to you that 

she may not view them as two separate matters? 

A No. 

Q Okay. So now let’s get to the time when she came 

and showed you the affidavit. How did it come about that she 

was nrating with you cm the datfz that she showed you the 

aftidavit? 

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A That was about the 8th or the 9th. she has the \ 

affidavit. Ask your question again. 

Q Yes. sir. We know you talked to her ona on the j 

phone about the affidavit. 

A Yes. I 

i Q And in essence said talk to your lawyer about it. 

You indicated at some point around the 7th, 8th or 9th, whit 

you were actually mezting with her, she showed you thi 

Exhibit VJ-5. the affidavit, correct? 

A Right. Right. 

Q How did it come about that she was in your offia 

meeting with you and showed you the affidavit? 

A Honestly, I don’t remember. And I don’t exactly 

remember when she was - 

(Interruption to proceedings.) 

MR. WISENBERG: Let the record reflect that Agent 

Roach briefly entered the room with a document. 

Thank you. 

THE WITNESS: I cannot recall when she actually 

showed me the s&ned affidavit, but she told me -- stz showu 

me the signed affidavit. When it was, I do not know. I 

cannot remember. It’s not on my calendar. it’s not on here_ 

actually, but I did meet with her on the 7th or the 8th she 

had the affidavit. And 1 think the affidavit was sim at 

the time. 

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Q Andsoyoudoknowthatwhcnsheshowedyouthc 

affidavit it was in person. 

A That’s right. 

Q And do you have any recollection -- let’s set aside 

independent from the affidavit for a second, do you have any 

recollection of why she would have been meeting with you in 

general on the 7th, 8th or 9th, in that timeframe? 

A Keep in mind that she always wanted to talk aboui 

the job, that she always wanted to talk about the job. And 

whenever she said she wanted to come by, 1 said, “&me by.’ 

SIX showui me the aflidavit and wkn sbc told OIC that sk bed 

signed the affidavit. I related that to Betty Cun-ie, that 

she had signed the affidavit. 

Q Now, when she showed you the affidavit, did you 

actually take a copy of it? 

No. 

So you didn’t keep a copy of it. 

No. 

Did you read the affidavit? 

No. 

Did you discuss any aspects of it? 

I did not. 

What, if anything, did you say to her when she 

showed you the affidavit? 

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A Something to the effect, “Well. this is done. 

You’ve gone to your iawyer, you’re this far in the process. 

Good.” 

Q Did she indicate to you her understanding of why 

she was preparing an affidavit? 

A Sk did not indicate why she was preparing the 

affidavit. I have to assume that the affidavit was being ; 

direct result of her consultation with counsel. 

Q Independent of your own assumptions, did anyone 

bctw&n -- well, at any time up until the day Ms. Lewinsky 

showed you the affidavit say anything to you that impart any 

information to you about what Ms. Lewinsky was doing in 

regard to the Paula Jones case or why? 

A No. No. 

Q Now, the meeting that you had on the 7th, 8th or 

9th at your office - 

A Yes. 

Q Do you remember what time during the day it would 

have been? 

A No. 

Q Did you ever do any meetings with Ms. Lewinsky 

where you guys ate, ate lunch or breakfast or anything like 

that? 

A I had a sandwich for her when she came to my office 

once. 

Page 22 

1 Q So you had in essence a lunch meeting at your 

2 office? 

3 A A very quick lunch. 

4 Q Which meeting would that have been? Do you recall? 

5 A It may have been the very first meeting, but on one 

6 occasion she came and I had a sandwich with her in my office 

7 MR. WKENBERG: Pardon me. I’m going to make some 

8 noise here. Give me a second. 

9 Carry on. 

0 BY MR. BIENERT: 

1 Q And then that’s the meeting also that when we 

2 looked at the record a little earlier was roughly lunchtime. 

3 A That’s right. 

4 Q It was about 1:OO. 

5 A That’s right. 

6 Q And that would have been the meeting on December 

7 11th. 

8 A Possibly. 

9 Q Now, the meeting on the 7th, 8th or 9th_ do you 

D have any recollection of how long it would have lasted? 

1 A Not very long. 

2 Q Did you discuss, other than when she showed you the 

3 affidavit and you in essence said “it’s good that that’s 

4 concluded” or words to that effccf did you have any other 

5 discussion with her about any topic in that meeting? 

J+w Vernon E. Jordan, Jr., +>-Yg - 

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A She was umamed about when she was going to uti 

Q So let’s now focus on the work aspect of any 

discussions you had with Ms. Lewinsky beh~anr the 22nd t 

December and this meeting on the 7th, 8th or 9th. okay: 

MR. WISENBERG: Before you do tha4 can I ask a 

question? Sony to keep intermpting. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q You told us before, Mr. Jordan, that in your 

phone conversation with her where she told you she had 

problems with the draft of the affidavit that you put a 

quick stop to that and said that was a matter between IX 

and her lawyer. Now she’s coming and visiting you sac 

showing you, attempting to show you and showing you tbt 

the affidavit is signed. Rcsumably at this mating she 

also was discussing the job. 

A She was always discussing work. 

Q Did this concern you at this point in time, that 

after you have told her apparently in no uncertain tums that 

you discuss your affidavit with your lawyer, that she’s 

comingtotallrtoyouaboutajobandshc’sshowingyouthis 

affidavit and that it’s signed? 

A Yes. Imadeaoconncctionbetweenhasbowingmc 

the affklavit and the ongoing discussions about anploymax. 

That had ban going on for bettu than a month by now and ttt 

process was in place. 

Page 2r 

I I think it was not until January 15th or so that 

2 she got the call from American Express saying that there was 

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no job there. And I think it was about tbe same time that 

she actually got the job at Revlon. 

MR. WISENBERG: That’s all I have. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q You indicated after the meeting when she show4 you 

the affidavit at some point you would have called Ektty 

Currie and let her know that? 

A Yts. I did_ 

Q Do you think it was tk same day? 

A I cannot honestly tell you, but the records may 

indicate that_ I don’t know when it was, but I told Betty 

Currie that Monica Lewin&y bad signal tbc affidavit aDd I’m 

fairlycertainthatItoldtheFVesidentthcsamet,hing 

Q Andlet’snowfocus-UpuntilthtpointWhtPYOI 

sawthesigncdaffi&vit,January7tb,8tbor9th,youbad 

tolduson%esdaythatyoubadoneeonvusati~witbtbc 

President about Ms. Lcwinsky wbcn you indicati to him that 

you were helping her get a job, correct? 

A YCS. 

Q Did you have any conversations o&r than that 

Divcrsificd Rmorting Scrviccs. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

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!4 affidavit with the President about Monica Lcwinsky? Aad let 

!5 mc,bythtway,forthcrecord,Ibowyou~toldusllbout 

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Page 25 

the face-to-faa conversation on the night of the 19th in the 

residential stction of the White House, so you don’t have to 

include that either. Any other conversations with the 

President 

A I don’t recollect any other conversation with the 

President about Monica lzwinsky except to convey to the 

President and to Betty C&e that Ms. Lewinsky had signed 

tht affidavit 

Q And, obviously, that would have ban after the time 

she canX in your office. 

ACollTXt. 

Q The 7th, 8th or 9th$ correct? 

A Correct. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Do you remember how soon after you told Betty 

Currie or before you told Betty Currie that you told the 

President? 

A I donot. 

Q Do you remember if you could have told Betty Cunie 

to Iet the President know? 

A I told Betty Cunie. I told her because I thought 

skoughttoknow. Sk#ntMs.LwinskyU,mt. Iknewtkt 

the President was concerned about the affidavit and whether 

or not it was si_gned. He was, obviously. And 1 told Betty 

Cur-tic. I don’t know whether I told her to tell the 

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President that you did in fact get her a lawyer? 

A I’m certain that there was a conversation and 1 

told the President that I had gotten Frank Caner. a ver): 

competent lawyu. who was rbc same lawyer I had recommo&d 

to Maggie Williams when she was in difficulties, as 1 said to 

you rhc orhcr day. Exactly wkn and under what circums~ 

1 told the President that, I cannot recollect, but I told 

him. 

Q Do you recall if it would have been in person or on 

the phone? 

A One or the other, but I’m not sure which. 

Q Can you tell us as best you can what the 

conversation was when you told him? 

A “Mr. President, Frank Carter is rcpresnting Monica 

Lewinsky.” Period. 

Q What was the President’s reaction? What, if 

anything, did he say? 

A “You tell me he’s a good lawyer’?” 1 said, “He’s a 

good lawyer.” End of conversation. 

Q Did he thank you for doing it? 

A He’s a very gracious man, I’m almost certain. 

Q Certain that he did thank you. 

A Yes. 

Q Did the President initiate that conversation about 

the status of Ms. Lewinsky and a lawyer or did you? 

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Page 26 

President because I told him myself. 

Q Okay. Do you know why he was concerned about the 

affidavit getting signed? 

A Here is a friend of his who is being called as a 

witness in another case and with whom I had gotten a lawyer, 

I told him about that, and told him I was looking for a job 

for her. He knew about all of that. And it was just a 

matter of course that he would be concerned as to whether or 

not she had signed an affidavit foreswearing what 1 told you 

the othn day, that there was no sexual relationship. 

Q But other than the logic of that, as you’ve just 

p~~ittous,didheoranyoneonhisbchalfsayordo 

anything to you specifically that led you to believe, other 

than how you’ve just explained to us - 

A It was just as I’ve explained it, counsel. 

Q A matter of logic. 

A Part of a continuing dialogue. 

MR WISENBERG: I’m sorry to keep interrupting. 

h4R. BIENERT: No, that’s fine. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q 1 want to make sure I understand the dialogue. 

As of the 19th, you had told President Clinton that were 

going to try to get a lawyer for Ms. Lewinsky, correct? 

A Yes. 

Q At what point thereafter, if ever, did you tell the 

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A I initiated the conversation because I had had 

her in my office. she needed a lawyer and 1 told him tha 

Monica Lewinsky, I had gotten her a lawyer. 

Keep in mind that we are friends, keep in mind 

that he knew that I was helping 1~ get a job, keep in mind 

that 1 felt some responsibility to tell him what was going 

on. And so 1 did that. 

It was not a staged conversation, it was not a 

concentrated conversation, it was a report to my friend. 

I got Monica Lewinsky a lawyer. Period. 

Q When you had this conversation with the President, 

was that the main topic you discussed in the conversation 

with him? 

A Monica Lewinsky was never the main topic of an] 

conversation with the President. The President and I talk 

about, as I have indicated to you, a lot of things. And 

amongtheitemsthatwedisc~IinformedhimthatIhad 

gotten a lawyer for Monica Lcwinsky, in much tht snmc way 

that 1 informed him that she had signed the affidavit. 

Q Did you in that same conversation have any 

discussion with the President about the status of 

Ms. Lewinsky’s job search? 

MR. WISENBERG: Which conversation? 

I’m interrupting because There was a conversation 

about telling the President about Frank Carter and about the 

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affidavit_ so I just -- 

Page 2’ 

MR. BIENERT: And to bc specific. right now. I’m 

focusmg on the conversation you would have had with the 

President in which you told him that you had gotten kr 

Monica Izwinsky, an attorney by the name of Frank Carter. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q In that conversation, do you believe that you 

and the President discussed at all the status of her job 

search? 

A We may have. I may have said to him that I’m 

still working, trying to get her a job, much the same wa, 

thatIrcportedthatIhadgottenheralawya. Thiswasthis was in due course. It was noting out of the ordinary, 

it wits nothing special. It was also at the same time we wart 

discussing other matters of state. 

Q Is it fair to say that up until the time when you 

informed the President, either directly or through 

Ms. Cunie, that the affidavit was signed. that you were not 

only kapiq him updated about whatmr you knew about what 

attomcy she had or what was going on there but also keeping 

him updated about the status of her job search? 

A The two -- absolutely. 

Q And I take it from what you said when you said 

“The two,” is that because those were the two issues, one Io 

a gzatcr dqrez than the other, that you Mn dealing with 

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Ms. Lew-insky on during that timeframe? 

A 1’11 take you back to my press conference. At the 

press conference I said that I helped Monica Lewinsky get a 

job. I did. And I was successful at that. 1 said I helper 

Monica L.cwinsky get a lawyer and I was successful at that. 

End of story. 

Q Did the President seem interested in continuing to 

get updates from you cm the status of Ms. Lewinsky’s job 

search and on whatever status there was that you knew about 

on the legal situation? 

A It was not a circumstance where I picked up the 

phone and talked to the Presider& the President talked to me 

and said, “What is the status of Monica Ixwinsky?” l%at wa 

not the CirctnrStan ce. It was in the due course of whatever 

we were talking about at a given time. 

Q Did the President ever indicate lo you that he did 

not want to hear about it? 

A No. 

Q Did the President either without words but througl 

suggestion or body language suggest that he had heard enough 

about it? In other words, “Don’t tell me any more”? 

A No. 

Q Now, when you were describing the information you 

gave to the Rtsident either directly or through Ms. Currie, 

vou indicated. I believe. that vou let him know that she had 

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signed an affidavit swearing that no sexual relationship 

occurred. Is that accurate? 

A That she had signed the affidavit. I did not go 

into the specifics of what it was about. 

Q Did you know at the time that you told him that tbe 

affidavit indicated that she had not had a sexual 

relationship with the President? 

A I knew that that was in the affidavit. 

Q And how did you know that? 

A I looked at it, remember? I told you. She brougf 

it to me. 

Q Well, and that’s why I’m asking, because - well, 

thought you indicattd you didn’t look at it.. That’s why I 

wanttoask. Wbcnyousawtbcaffidavit,towhatdegrrrdid 

you look at its terms? 

A Just Iike you gave it to me, I’m a fairly quick 

reader. I skimmed it 

Q And so what was it that you gleaned from the 

affidavit when you skimmed it? 

A That Ms. Lewinsky was being consistent in the 

affidavit with what she had told me in my off& on the 19th. 

Q And consistent in what specific way? 

A That she had not had sexual relationships with tlx 

President. 

Q Was there any other information in the affidavit 

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that you nzcollect focusing on or lezuning? 

A For me, that was essentially what it was al1 about_ 

Q When Ms. Lcwinsky showed you the affidavit and you 

skimmed it and got this information, did you have any 

follow-up questions with her? 

A I didnot. 

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Q Did you focus at all on - there’s a section in the 

affidavit that indicates that after the time when sht quit 

workingatthcWhiteHousesbehadneverbecnalonewithtlm 

President? 

A I did not get into that. 

Q k that in the topic that you even were awaR of? 

A I’ve never had a convmsation with e&r of&m 

as to whether or not they were alone. 

Q Up until this point, you had told us that you had a 

conversation with Ms. Currie wben she told you or asked you 

if you could try to help get a job for Ms. Lcwinsky, con&? 

A h’h-hmm. 

Q And you had at least one conversation with 

Ms. Currie wlme you would have related to her that 

Ms.Lcwi&ywaspmisteotineallingyouaboutberjob 

status, correct? 

A Right 

Q Had you had any conversations up until the day 

Ms. Lmhsky showd you Ihe signed affidavit with Ms. Cumic I 

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wkre you discussed at all her legal situation, getting he] 

an attorney or the affidavit? 

A There was no reason for me to diSCuSS 

Ms. Lewinsky’s legal situation with Ms. Currie except In one 

instance when I told her that she had signed the affidavit. 

1 did tell her that she had signed the affidavit. 1 don’t 

view that as diseu&ng a legal situation with Betty Curric. 

lhatwasamatterofinfofnxttionthatIwaspassingonto 

Ms. Currie. But I did not have a discussion with Ms. Currie 

&OUtMS.LWiUSQ’Sso-callcdltgalSituatiOnbecaustIhad 

put htr legal situation into tht hands of very competent 

counstl. 

Q Why did you then tell Ms. Currie that Ms. Lewin&y 

had signed the affidavit? 

A As a matter of information. 

Q When you gave her that information, waz you giving 

it to lxx solely so she could tell it to the President or for 

her own purposes? 

A For whatever. Sometimes you can talk to tht 

P&dent, sometime5 you can’t talk to the President. Sk is 

there at the Prcsidcnt’s right hand all the time. I told he; 

that she had signed the affidavit and I subsequently told the 

President, as I have indicated here this morning. 

Q Did Ms. Currie seem to know about the affidavit 

when you told her? And by that I just mean the fact tha 

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there was a potential affidavit floating around out there as 

to Ms. Lcwinsky. 

A She seemed to understand that there was an 

affidavit and that it had been signed. 

Q She didn’t ask you any questions along the lines o 

“What are you talking about” or “What do you nxan”? 

A No, she did not. 

Q Now, during this timeframe, up until the time when 

Ms. Imvinsky brought you the signed affidavit, did you speah 

with anyone else at the white House about Ms. Lewinsky and 

the legal end of things? 

A No. 

Q During this time, did you speak at all on any 

topics with Mr. Bennet& counsel for President Clinton? 

AWhatiSthetimeframe? 

Q And I think the timeframe we‘re looking at now 

would be Deamber 19th when Ms. Lvinsky told you about 

the subpoena up through the day January 7th. 8th or 9th 

when she gave you the affidavit. 

A No. 

Q Did you speak at all during that timeframe with -- 

I believe it’s Dave Kendall? 

A I have not No. I did not. 

Q And by now I’m going to the rough timeframe kve 

hem talking about_ November, Deccmher of last year. Would 

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you spxk to Mr. Kendall from time to time? 

A David Kendall is a friend of tine. David Kendi: 

1s a _qx;;ats of Wabash College. I’m a graduate of IkPauv* 

L‘nlvem:>. Wabash and DeYauw have had a IOO-year nvaq . 

so eve kanbcr. Novanbcr we have a conversarion about who 1 

won tk iootball game because we have a bet. And as a rest.: : 

of DePz~w having been victorious over Wabash, Mr. Ken&: i 

owes my wife and 1 dinner. , 

Q So would you speak at all to Mr. Kendall about any i 

of the Paula Jones-Monica lxwinsky matters? 1 

A So. No. And I havenot. I didspeak to him about 

his indebtedness to me because Wabash lost. 

Q YOU got the priorities. 

A Xnd there is some correspondence about that. his I 

shame. It’s actually about the weather and how we affected 

the weather so that Wabash could lose. 

Q Okay. Did you ever see any non-signed version of 

an affidavit from Ms. Lcwinsky? 

A I don’t recollect having seen a non-signed version 

and I dm’t know why I would ban sc~l a non-signed vaGm. 

Q AndsoI assume it follows then that you never saw 

a version that would have had pen markings on it or 

alterations? 

A I certainly don’t have any recollection of that. 

U j‘ou wsrc ncvcr involved m any aspect of preparing 

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her affidavit. correct? 

A I was not Ms. Lewinsky’s lawyer. 

Q Sotheanswer -- I’m assuming you’re agreeing that 

you uere not involved in any aspect of preparing it. 

A That’s correct. And I would have been -- no. 

Q To your knowledge, was anyone at your law firm - 

A No. 

Q - whether it be staff or attorneys involved in any 

aspect of preparing that affidavit? 

A Absolutely not. 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Did you ever talk to Frank Carter about it? 

A bout? 

Wording of the affidavit. 

No. That was Frank Carter’s business, not mine. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q Which was going to be my follow-up, which is now 

we’re iocusing on Dtxxmber 22nd through the time that she 

brough! you the affidavit. Monica Lewinsky brought you the 

affidavit. Did you have any further conversations with 

Mr. Carter after you introduced them and let him do his 

business? 

A I think a conversation, “I hope it’s going well.” 

Som&ing to that effect. Nothing about the substarxx of his 

rcprcsentation or what it is that he planned to do in this 

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Q Did he attempt to impart any information of that 

type to you? 

A No, except on the 19th when we had lunch. On 

January 19th ht did inform me that he was going to or had 

filed a motion to quash her subpoena in the Paula Jones case. 

Q Okay. So this was a later meeting. 

A This war a later meeting. 

Q Do you recall having a conversation with her abour ; 

I 

MR. BIENERT: kt me just before 1 forget go back 

to something clst from the testimony on Tuesday and we’ll 

call this ~-6. March 5, 1998. I’ll hand that to you. 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. 6 was 

marked for identification.) 

BY MR BENERT: 

Q And I’ll just ask you, sir, to look at it and tell 

me if this looks like anything you’ve ever seen. 

A Well, this is her resume and these are notes to me 

mying that “My dmm had ban to work in communicscions or 

strategic planning at the White House. I’m open to any 

suggestion you may have on work that is similar in scope or 

direction. It is important to me that I be engaged and 

challenged in my work and that I not be someone’s 

administrative executive assistant and that my salary provide 

me a comfortable living.” ‘This is reflective of what I told 

you on Tuesday of this sort of exaggerated notion. 

Multi-Page”” Vcmon E. Jordan, Jr., 3-5-98 

Page 35 

1 high and it’s important to have a high salary.” 

2 That’s htrr again an indication that she was a bi: 

3 unrealistic. But that unrealism. as I indicaed to you I 

4 other day, transamds all w and levels of people seeking 

5 new opportunities. 

6 

7 salary? 

8 A I recall a conversation uith her that htr 

9 expectations may be far in excess of the reality of the 

1 0 circumstances. 

1 I Q And thtn at the end of that note, it says -- on ti 

1 2 second page? 

1 3 A yes. 

1 .4 Q Itsays,“Anothcrnote,IhopeyouwiIlun~d 

1 5 when I say I prefer that Marsha not be involved in this 

1 6 endeavor.” Do you know what that’s a mferenee to? 

1 7 A I don’t have the slightest idea what that’s about 

I 8 Q Is it possible that this may not have been a note 

1 9 directed to you but directed to someone else? Or do yet 

i !O believe this is the note that she - 

i !1 A Well, my name is not on it and I don’t know who 

i !2 else was aecessarily involved_ She does say that the idea of 

1 !3 working at the United Nations did not appeal to her. 

i !4 Q Is that something she discussed with you? 

i !5 A Sht said she did not want to work at the U.N. 

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2 3 A Tk ehainnan and CEO. Peter &orgeseo. 

2 4 Q other than those calls, did you make any other 

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I Q And that’s what I wanted to ask you. When we spoke 

2 on Tuesday. 1 think yau indicated lha~ at some point wbm you 

3 frrst met with her she did have sort of her own ideas about 

4 the kind of job she wanted and some of the companies she’d 

5 want to work at, correct? 

6 A Right 

7 Q And I think you indicated that you thought she hat 

8 some sort of a document, although you didn’t take a copy of 

9 it. Is that right? 

IO A That’s tight. 

II Q Isthisthedocumen t or do you even know? 

12 A Well, I remember seeing this. I remember seeing 

13 Hill & Knowiton. I remember seeing Bozell Public Relations 

Page 41 

Q So then to make sure I understand, you recognize 

several of the topics on this, correct? 

A Yes. Yes. 

Q And you know that she did have some sort of notl 

when she spoke with you, but you’re not sure if this is 

actua.Ily the note. 

because I know something about Bozell. I’ve never heard of 

Dew& Public Rchtions. And I don’t know much about Downey 

Chandler. I do know about Hill & Knowlton and, of course, 

Burson-Marsteller. 

A No, but it does ring a bell and what rings a bell 

tithIneissortofthecxaggaatedVicwofkr-thetrdalts 

t.hatshewouIdbeabletotaketotkpriva&aaztorandErr 

rather exaggerated view that sht should be a OS-12. 

Q Now,foeusingonthetimefiomthe19ththrough 

January 7th 8th and 9th when sht came with the signed 

affidavit, did you make any other affumative efforts, otha 

thanthtancsyoutoldusaboutonTucsday,to~haajob? 

A ThoseUdlCOd)‘thlUpk4ZSthddkdy 

called and had htr write. 

She says here on salary, “While my current salary 

as a GW step 2 is 632,000, my research shows that my 

counterparts at the Pentagon are all Gs-12s at salary levels 

ranging from S45.000 to $59.000 depend@ upon their step 

number. It is a mystery to me, too. why I am not a cs-12 

wbcn we all pa-form the same duties. Therefore, I do not 

think it inappropriate to request a salary of 560,000. My 

Q AndyouddusonTusdayabouthowyoumadea 

CalI to, I thinJL three different places. You e&d 

Ms.FairburnatAmericanExpress,youcaIlaIsomameat 

McAndrcws - I think Halperin? 

A Richard Halperin. 

Q And you called someone at Young & Rub&n 

friends in New York have advised me that living expenses are cahsonkrbehalfupuntiItheti.uuwhcnshewouldbave 1 

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brought you the affidavit on around January 7th. 8th or 9tb? 

A On or about January 8th, I placed a call to the 

chairman of Revlon, Ronald Perelman, and I said to Ronald 

tbatIbadsentMonicaLcwinskytoRichard,tbatshebadbad 

some intaviews and if be would look into tbc matter and sez 

if he could be helpful. 

Q And why did you place that call? 

A Iwastryingtogetherajob. 

Q Had you gotten information that she hadn’t yet 

secured one? 

A I knew that she had been interviewed, I was also 

aware that she was increasingly frustrated by it, and so I -- 

if you’ve bacn around companies as long as I have, you know 

howtomakethingshappcnorto~nlymakethingsgetan 

answu. It may not be a positive an.s~, but you know bow to 

getanan!Wez. 

Q And wben you say you knew that she bad interviewed 

at hk~mhvs or Revlon. from what source did you know that? 

A She told me that she had interviewed there. 

Q Had anybody from McAndms & Forks or Revlon km 

updating you? 

A No. 

Q And, similarly, on the front of the other 

companies, let’s take Burson-Marsteller, bad anybody updated 

you as to -- 

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A I did not talk with anyone at Burson. I only spoke 

toPcccrGoorgscoandIknewfromMs.Lcw+kythatskhad 

taken an examination. She was a little put out about having 

to do that, as I indicated to you the other day, but I nevel 

had a subsequent conversation with anybody at either Burson 

or at Young & Rubicam. And the only conversation 1 had 

subsequent to my first call to Peter was a call after the 

news broke on this when I apologized to him that my call had 

gotten Young & Rubicam into a bit of a jam. 

Q And we’ll focus on that timeframe in a little 

while. What about American Express? After calling -- I 

believe it was Ms. Fairbum, what communication, if any, 

did you have either with someone at knerican Express or 

Ms. Lcwinsky about what was happing with Amuican Express? 

A ShctoldmethatskhadgonetoAmericanE.xpms. 

At some point in the process, I believe some time in January, 

Ms. Fairbum, Ursie Fairbum, who is the Senior Via 

Resident for Human Resources, called and said, “We met 

with her, we interviewed her, and we’re not going to hire 

her.” I said that on Tuesday. 

Q Did that person indicate to you why? 

A Ithbkh3tifthey&d,itWaSbtcawthe~WaS 

no fit, there was no job. I don’t generally pursue that 

because I have confidence in the people to whom I refer 

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their needs, not based on my call. 

Q I take from what you say, then, that you didn’t 

have any substantive conversation with that person about the i 

reasons why she wasn’t hired. 

A Sk called and said, “We’ve interviewed ber and we 

in effect are not going to hire her.” And I said, “Thank you 

very much for interviewing her.” 

Q Did you ask if they knew of any other job 

opportunities? 

A No, I did not. 

Q Prior to the time that you would have ma& your 

call on Janwy 8th to the chairman of McAndrtws, do you 

&ink you ahdy knew that American Exprss was not going IO 

hire her? 

A I don’t think 1 did. And 1 think there is a record 

somewhere based on the interview of the Office of tk 

In&pa&~ Counsel with Ms. Fairbum exactly wkn she calkd 

me up and 1 don’t quite know when that was, but I think it 

was some time in January. 

Q Now, other than the conversation - let me back up. 

Now, we’re focusing again on the timeframe of the 22nd who 

you introduced her to Mr. Carter and the time when she told 

you the affidavit - or showed you the affidavit that was 

signed. I think you indicated you believe you had one 

conversation with him where no substantive matters wue 

Page& 

I discussed and you might have said something along the lines 

2 of “I hope it goes well” or words to that effect. Is that 

3 correct? 

4 A Who are we talking about? 

5 Q Mr. Carter. Your conversations with Mr. Carter in 

6 which you referenced in any way Ms. Lewinsky. 

7 A Yes. “How’s it going? I hope it’s going well. 

8 Hope I’ve sent a client - hope you can handle this matter.” 

9 You know, you make a referral lrnd you hope it works out all 

o right. 

1 Q So no other conversations with him up until the 

2 time you knew - she showed you the signed affidavit. 

3 A That’s right. 

4 Q Now, at the time she showed you that affidavif 

5 what, if anything, did Ms. Ltwinsky indicate sbe was going ta 

6 do with the affidavit? 

7 A You mean when she signed it? 

8 Q Yes, sir. 

9 A That was beWeen she and her lawyer. 

:0 Q Did you have any understanding as to what sk would 

11 do with the affidavit’? 

12 A I did not. Nor did I pursue it. 

:3 Q Did you have any assumptions about tit would 

:4 happen with the affidavit? 

!5 A I was not trying the case, number one. Numba two. 

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whatever then was to do with the affidavit, I was confident 

that my friend Frank Carter would know what to do and take 

care of it It was not a question that I needed to ask. 

Q So the answer is you did not have any assumptions 

about what she would do. 

A IThat iS CcMTeCt. 

Q So on around the 7th or 8th, you had the meeting 

with Ms. Winsky. On the 8th. YOU made. another call on thr 

job. And what, if anything -- who was it you spoke to - 

A I made a call to Ronald PereIman. 

Q Yes. Right. 

A Okay. 

Q And what, if anything, did Mr. Perelman tell you? 

A He said, “I’ll look into it.” 

Q And did you then kam any further information 

ahout Ms. Lzwinsky on the job front? What happened next? 

A At some point, she was hired and I don’t know when 

She was hired, but at some point she actually told me and 

maybe it was the last meeting I had with her when she brough 

me the tie. 

Q Okay. That would be the fourth meeting that you 

believe occurred? 

A Tk fourth meeting, about the 15th. 

Q Of January? 

A Yes. Thereabout. 

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Q So somewhere in between January 8th. when you 

called Mr. Perelman, and January 1% it was your 

understanding that Ms. Lcwinsky got hired. Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q First of all, let me back up to the meeting on 

the 7th. 8th. around there, when she showed you the 

affidavit. When that meeting concluded. what was your 

undmtancii~ of where she stood in the job pipeline with 

Revlon? 

A My understanding was that she did not have a job. 

Q Did you have any knowledge at that point as to 

whether she was still scheduled to interview again or hat 

anything on slate along those lines? 

A My understanding was that she had been interviewed 

and she was waiting to hear. 

Q Now, how did you learn around the 15th or some days 

up to that that she did in fact get a job at Revlon? 

A She called and told me that she had a job at 

Revlon. 

MR. WISENBERG: Tom, can I butt in for a minute? 

h4R. BXENERT: Mm-hmm. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Just for purposes of the record. Mr. Jordan, I 

think you’re referring occasionally to a chronology -- 

A Yes. 

Page 47-l 

Q -- that you brought in here. 

A That’s right. 

Q Your lawyer handed us a copy of that on Tucsdr 

A Right. 

Q And, just for the record, the chronology, when it 

refers to the third ML mating, has affidaviit, VJ G& BC n 

statement, the chronology lists that that you brought in, 

lists that as January 7, 8, 9 question mark. 

A Yes. 

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Q And the mating that you were just talking about, 

the fourth meeting, where she infotmed you she had the job, 

on the chronology it says fourth ML meeting, fourth floor, 

pmsznts, and then under that it says BC m&ting. The dates 

are January 12,13, 14, 15. Is that correct? 

A That’s right. 

MR. WISENBERG: All right. Sorry about that 

interruption. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q You had indicated to us on Tuesday that from 

thcfintmetwithMs.LcwmskyinDec4!mberupunt.ilthc 

19th when you heard about the subpoena she was calling you 

frequently about the job and bordering on pestering, is that 

right? 

A Yes. 

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tk tkncfnune from tbc 22nd up until wbar sbt shmd you tbc 

affidavit? 

A Well, she had taken a test, she had been 

intcnkwai at both Young & Rubicam. Ama-ican Express. and at 

Revlon, so she felt some movement certainly, but she did not 

have a job. 

Q Was the frequency of calls from her to you to the 

point where it was bordering on annoyance? 

A I am aware of the frequency and given the other 

pressures in my office, I am aware that I found it 

inconvenient sometimes, but I took the call. 

Q She was calling you more than you would have liked. 

A That’s right. But that is not unusual with people 

who are looking for work 

Q Now, I aslcaI you on Tuesday and we didn’t addrrss 

it specificaily if there was ever a time when Ms. Lwinsky 

citber gave you a latter or just through words gave you her 

views on whether the Resicknt should szttlc the Paula Jones 

case. The question is did that occur? 

A Ido remember a conversation with Ms. Lcwinsky 

about her ideas about settling, which I paid very littIe 

ancntionto,whichIdisnisstdoutofhandassorrofnonc 

ofherbusiness andIdismisscditoutofbandsortofbased 

onthefactthatIdidn’tthinksheknewwhatskwastalking 

about. And so I did not entertain it 

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I It was -- I indulged her in listening to it for / 1 A I’m nor confident about that, but we did have -- wr 

2 a minute and was rather dismissive of it. It was not for 1 2 did have a conversation which I dismissed and she, you know 

3 M to have a substantive dixussion with Monica Lcwinsky 3 wanted to discuss it. That was not my responsibility. I was 

4 about whetber or not tk R&dent ought to settle his case. 4 tryingtofindberajob. Latcron,Iwastryingtofindher 

5 Q And did you also fal that it was not for Moniw 5 a lawyer. To sit around and discuss settlement of the Paula 

6 Lcwinsky to have any d input into whether the PrISident 6 Jones casz or ha theory about it was not something I was 

7 should settle his civil case? 7 prepared to engage in. 

8 A WeU,c&ainlyno input w-&me. Maybe if shehad 8 Q And I’m not trying to ask you more substantively 

9 access to his real lawyers, that would have been a diff&ent 9 about it, I’m just trying to place a timing. So your best 

10 w. But somehow tl~ concept of Monica Lewinsky Loving a 10 recollection is it would not have been the fmt time you met 

I I &scusion with me about the President settling the Paula 11 her and it would not have been the time she was in your 

12 Jones case just seemed out of order. 12 offia very upset about the subpoena. 

13 Q J)o you know WI-XXI this conversation would have 13 A And I think - you know, after the second visit, 

14 occ~roughtimtframt? 14 skftltsomenxoaablcckgnzofcomforttithrnewhich~ 

I5 A No. In one of hex visits to my offia. As I said 15 havebeenapartofitandshefelt,Ithink,thatIwasher 

I6 to YOU bCfOrr, and 1 don’t pltan this in any way Ue@iveiy 16 fricndandctrtainlythclasttimcthatIsawhcr,whcnshc 

,7 because she is not the only person that you see Sort of 17 had gotten the job and she brought me a gift, I think she 

,8 afflictedwith-basedonatadofexposurttoproeessand 18 feltthatIhadtakenweof~busincssandthatwasthat 

:9 pcopk, they somebow believe that they’= experts and so she 19 1 had gotten her a job. 

!O waspreparedto - it’s like when I was a civil rights lawyer 20 Q Was thert anything about her language or &meanor 

11 in the south, you’d get a rcportcr from New York who came to 21 when she told you her views on whether the President should 

!2 t.h~ ~0ut.h and stayed one day and he thought he was an cxpa-t 22 settle tk Paula Jones case! that suggested to you that she 

~3 on race relations in the south. You understand what I’m 23 felt an interest in whether he settled the Paula Jones case 

!4 saying? 24 because she was potentially a witness in the Paula Jones 

!5 And so I think that this exposure to the White 25 case? 

Page 50 Page 52 

1 House, this exposure in the legislative office and the time 1 A 1 did not sense an enlightened self-interest htn. 

2 at the Pentagon sort of made her feel like she was a 2 Q And she certainly didn’t say anything to you 

3 substantive person and could have substantive conversations. 3 directly to make that link. 

4 It was not for me to engage and indulge in that. 4 A She did not. 

5 And I’m not putting her down, it’s just you’ve got 5 Q Did it occur to you -- 

6 fii out how much time you’ve 801 and what you want to Iaik 6 A Did not. 

7 about with whom. 7 Q And let me just finish it for the record. Did 

8 Q Now, you believe it occurred during one of your 8 it occur to you that she might have that link in her own 

9 face-to-face meetings with her, right? 9 mind? 

#O A Yes. Yes. 10 A That did not occur to me. 

iI Q Is it safe to say it would not have occuned during 1 I BY UR WISENBERG: 

12 themectingontht 19th~shewasveryupset. 12 Q What did she actually say? when she had the 

.3 A She had anothtr problem on the 19th. 13 discussion with you, the discussion with you about her 

84 Q Correct_ So you don’t believe it was that meeting. 14 views on settlement, what’s your recollection of what she 

,5 A Idonot. IS said? 

86 Q And is it more likely than not that it was on one 16 A She tried to engage me in a conversation about 

7 of tbe later meetings with her as opposed to the first time 17 settlement and I guess she started, “I think this about 

.8 you met her in your Off&? 18 settlement.” I don’t know how it started, all I know is 

I9 A I think that’s probably right. 19 that I was not going to have a discussion about it. 

!O Q So based on your recollection that there were 20 Q Did she say she thought the President should 

!l approximately four meetings, the first one being some time - 21 settle? 

!2 mknowDcambcrllththcsocondonebcingthc19rhwhcnsk 22 A I don’t know that she took a position one way or 

!3 was very upst, and the third two being in January, do you 23 the other. but there was some discussion, as tbcre has ban 

14 f-1 conficknt that wbm sbe said this to you it would have 24 all around lown, about the wisdom, the pragmatism, all the 

!5 been one of the meetings in January? 25 legal ramifications of settling. 

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1 mean. this is a general topic around town. 

It’s not something new. But whcthcr she took a position 

on settlement, I don’t recollect that because. here again. 

I was not going to entertain a substantive conversation with 

Monica Lewinsky about the President settling this case. 

BY MR. BIENERT 

Q As you sit here now, you don’t recall her saying he 

shouldn’t settle or taking that position? 

A Yes, but I also don’t recall her saying he should 

xttle, si,mply because I was not going to have a discussion 

witi t&s young woman about whether or not the &sidcnt was 

going to settle a case. 

I had two purposes with Ms. Lcwinsky. The fvst 

was to get her a job. Eventually, I accomplished that. On 

the 19th, she had another problem with a subpoena. I told 

~l’dgetberalawyerandldidthatontk22ndandtook 

he!rtohim. 

THE FOREPERSON: Excuse me, Mr. Bienert. It’s time 

for the grand jury to take a break. 

MR. BIENERT: Yes, ma’am. How long a break would 

you like? 

THE FOREPERSON: Fifteen minutes. please. 

THE WITNESS: Forclady. 1 really thank you for 

that. 

THE FOREPERSON: You may be excused. 

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THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

(Witness excused. Witness recalled.) 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Mr. Jordan, before we go back to Mr. Bienert, his 

questions, I have a few for you. Did Betty Ctie in an) 

way, any way whatsoever, connect Ms. Lewinsky’s signing of 

the affidavit to her job search? 

A No. 

Q Did anyone else? 

A No. 

Q Did anyone ever tell you that something to the 

effect that Monica had said “I’m not signing any affl&vit 

until. I get a job”? 

A No. 

Q Do you have a copy of the affidavit there in front 

of you still? 

A YeS. 

Q 1’11 ask you to tum to the second page and let me 

just read tbc last few scntcnces of pangmph A. “The 

occasions that I saw the President after I left my employment 

at the White House in April 1996 waz official receptions, 

formal functions, or events related to the U.S. Department of 

Defense where I was working at the time. There were other 

people present on these occasions.” 

Have I read that concctly? 

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Q Have you rcezlved any information, other than what 

you’ve read in the papers, have you received any informatic 

inconsistent with that statement by Ms. Lewinsky? 

A No. I do not know anything about Ms. hvinsky’s 

visits anywhere except to my off& and the time I took kr 

to Mr. Carter’s office. 

Q Would it be fair to charactaize Mr. F’aelman, who 

we talked about a little on Tuesday and today, as a major 

figure in American finance? 

A Yts. 

Q How often, to your recollection, have you made a 

personal call to him related to a job referral? 

A There is no question but that I made it as relates 

tol%.Lewin&yonoraboutthe8thofJan~. Italkedto 

him about the employment of an associate at Akin, Gump, 

Strauss, Hauer & Feld scvaal years ago and that employ& 

mntfromAkinGumptoworkforMcAndrms&Forbcsintbc 

Washington office and she was thtz three or four years. 

I spoke diitly to him about the hiring of this young woman. 

A hwyer. 

Q Any others that you can recall? That makes Monica 

Lewmsky and this person you’ve just mentioned from Akin 

Gump. Any other occasions when you directly talked to 

Mr. Pe4man about essentially a job referral type situation? 

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no longer t.ke and that employee’s ckumskmct tbue. I am 

fairly certain that I had a conversation with Ronald Perelman 

about his hiring the former mayor of the City of New York, 

Mayor David Din&s, who now works for Revlon. 

Q So as I count it, including Monica Lewinslcy, that 

would be about four? 

A Four that I can remember. Yes. 

Q was your Cdl t0 h’b. kdIMtIY that you &s&bed 

that you made about Monica Lewin&y, was that in any way 

connected to her signing of ti affidavit? 

A No. Absolutely not. 

h4R. WISENBERG: That’s all 1% got right now. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q The person you mentioned that you spoke to 

Mr. Perelrnan about who worked at - I believe you said 

Revlon, what was that person - what Ievel were they at 

Revlon? What did they do? 

A She was the number two person in the Washingtot 

office. 

Q And you spoke with him about what in relation tfi 

her? What job change? 

A Aboutbcrlcavin8AkinGumpwbaesbewasalawycr 

ontbeMchdrews&Forbes accountandskwasgaodandtby I 

actuallyst&krfromAkinGumpbeeauseskwassogood. 

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1 Stole in quite the word, but they persuaded her that her 

2 fortunes lay more with McAnbnvs & Forbes than with us and 

3 she took the job. She’s no longer there, by the way. 

4 Q shewassomeone who was very good and good enough 

5 that - 

6 A Who actualIy worked me. 

7 Q So it was one of these situations where Akin’s 

8 loss was Revlon’s gain. a good employet who you were glad 

9 tos&getwhatshcwanted,butshewasvaygoodworking 

1 0 at Akin. 

1 1 A Yes. And I had a conversation with the chairman 

1 2 about that. 

1 3 Q Okay. So that was the attome-- you referenced. 

1 4 Itboughtyoubadsaidyoutboughtyouspoketohimabout 

1 5 ~else,notMr.Dink&butathirdperson. That’s 

I 6 the one I’m trying to focus on. 

1 7 MR WISENBERG: I think you said about someone who 

1 8 was already there. 

I 9 THE WlTNESS: Yes. This was a rather difficult 

2 10 employee who was there at the time and that was a 

2 !I lawyer-client relationship. That was not a reference, but 

2 12 it was a personal conversation that we had. 

2 3 BY MR. BIENERT: 

2 14 Q But it wasn’t about trying to get a job for anyone. 

2 !5 A No. It was a question of whether he was going to 

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your office and Mayor Dinkins. 

.A Yes. 

BY h4R. WISENBERG: 

Page 59 1 

Q That female attorney, was she an associate or a 

partner? 

A She was an associate 

BY MR. BLENERT: 

Q In looking at your calendar for late last year 

and then early this year, it appears that you would meet 

on occasion with Ambassador Richardson. Is that accumte? 

A I met with Ambassador Richardson, had breakfa 

with him in January. I think my calendar shows that. I 

hadbreakfastwithhimattheambassador’saparunmtattbe 

Waldorf Towers some time in early Januaty. 

Q And I’ll represent to you that the calendar shows 

January 6th. 

A All right. 

Q Does that sound right? 

A That’s correct. 

Q Did you discuss at all with Ambassador Richardson 

Monica Lewinsky? 

A We did not discuss Monica Lewinsky in that 

breakfast. 

Q Up until that point, had you ever discussed - 

A I have never had a conversation with Ambassador 

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continue to work there or not. 

Q Okay. Someone you had a problem with. 

A He had a problem with. 

Q Mr. Perelman. 

A Yes. The company had a problem. 

Q So then as far as the people that you can recall 

that you would have talked to Mr. PereIman about possible 

anploymcnt or getting a job, it would have ban Ms. Lcwinsky, 

Mayor Dir&ins and this attorney from Akin Gump. a female 

1 attormy. 

1 A Also, when he was looking for someone to run 

1 Marvel, which is a part of his company, it’s funny books, 

1 it’s magazines, I did talk to him about a young Harvard 

1 Business School graduate and 1 talked to that graduate about 

1 putting them together. They got together and they decided 

1 that they - he went to work some place else. 

1 Q And I just want to make sure we have -- 

1 A But I recommended this young man to Mr. Perehnan. 

1 wbo bad already heard about him, who inquired of me about 

2 him. We bad several conversations. I had conversations with 

1 the young man involved. 

: Q So then to make sure I’m accurate, is it correct, 

i then, that the persons you recall talking to Mr. Perelman 

i about anploymcnt with at Revlon would be Ms. Lcwinsky, tht 

2 man from Harvard Business School, the female attorney from 

1 Richardson, the U.N. ambassador, about Monica Lwinsky. 

2 Q Okay. And I’d just ask if I could finish the 

3 question. 

4 A Okay. I’m sorry. 

5 Q But you knew where I was going and you were correct 

6 in responding to the question I was trying to finish. 

7 Did you ever have breakfast or any meal, for that 

8 matter, with Monica Lewinsky at the Park Hyatt? 

9 A No. Rut I have breakfast at the Park Hyatt very 

0 often as the records that you have subpoenaed from the Park 

1 Hyatt will show you. 1 have a corner table there and I have 

2 breakfast there all the time. 

3 Q But not with her. 

4 A I 'vc never had breakfast with Monica L.cwinsky. 

5 Q Wcrc you aware that Ms. Lewinsky interviewed 

6 at Revlon on January 9th, the day after you spoke to 

7 Mr. Perelmtln? 

8 A i was not aware of that. it was my impression that 

9 she had interviewed at Revlon before that. 

0 Q And you weren’t aware that she may have had an 

1 additional interview on the 9th. 

2 A I am not. 

3 Q When you spoke to Ms. L&t&y on approxinmtely tin 

4 7th and she was asking you about tlx job status, did she give 

5 you any indication that at that time she had another 

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Page 61 

I interview scheduled with Revlon? 

2 A I don’t recollect that. 

3 Q At any of the meetings that you’ve told us about 

4 when you met with Ms. Lewinsky. and so far we’ve covcnd now 

5 three: December 1 lth, December 19th and 1 guess actually 

6 December 22nd when you brought her to Mr. Carter and then 

7 this meeting, January 7th, 8th. somewhere up in there, was 

8 anyone else present -- okay. Let me start over. Let’s 

9 exclu& when you went to Frank Carter’s office. AS to those 

0 other three meetings, was anyone else ever present when you 

I mctwithhfx? 

2 A No. 

3 Q Did you take any notes or write anything during 

4 those meetings? 

5 A No. 

6 Q Did Ms. Lcwinsky give you anything other than her 

7 resume during those meetings? 

8 A One meeting, she brought me a tie and a 

9 handkerchief. 

!O Q And would that have been the meeting you had with 

!I her after she got the job? 

!2 A It was my last meeting with her. 

!3 Q Which we’ll get to in a moment. When you went with 

!4 Ms. Lewinsky to introduce her to Frank Carter, you had 

5 someone drive you there? 

Page 62 

1 A Yes. 

2 Q And was a limousine service or how does that work? 

3 A No. My law firm provides me as a senior executive 

4 partner with a car and a driver. The car is owned by the 

5 firm, the driver is paid by the firm. He is my full-time 

6 driver to the extent that 1 need to get anywhere. He picks 

7 me up in tbe morning. he takes me home at night. Hc takes me 

8 to the airport. He takes me wherever I have to go. 

9 Q And so this is a particular car and driver assigned 

0 to you. 

1 A That’s correct. 

2 Q Is there any kind of procedure you need to use to 

,3 line him up in terms of writing out something, a request 

14 time, or is it just a matter of you have your secretary line 

IS him up? 

16 A He is there at my beck and call. He has an office 

17 just outside my office. 

18 Q And you’re not sharing him, at least on a 

19 regular -- 

!O A Not with anyone else. 

1 Q NOW, did you have any discussions with Frank Carter 

2 after Ms. Lvinsky showed you the signed affidavit and up 

3 until -- 1 believe you indicated you had lunch with him on 

4 Januaty 19th. so set aside January 19th for a second. Did 

5 you have any discussions with Frank Czuter in the intervening 

Page 63 

I time that you can recall? 

2 A I think I may have called him and said. “Frank 

I because we all knew it. 

2 Q Did you have any discussions of a substantive 

3 nature with anyone about President Carter’s upcoming 

4 deposition? 

5 A You don’t mean President Carter. 

6 Q Yes. President Clinton. I’m getting my Cs, 

7 my Democrats, confused. All right. Let me start over. 

8 Did you have any conversations at all with anyone prior to 

9 January 17th about President Clinton’s deposition? 

10 A No. 

11 Q Did you after his deposition speak with him about 

12 the deposition? 

13 A I have never discussed his deposition with him. 

14 Q And, simihxly, have you had any discussions with 

15 hisattorncysoranyontatthtwhittHoustabouthis 

16 deposition since the deposition? 

17 A IhaVCnOt. 

18 Q Have you ever seen a copy of the deposition? 

19 A Ihavenot. 

20 Q Have you ever seen any documen ts that relate in any 

11 way to the deposition? 

I2 A I have not. 

13 MR. WISENBERG: Could I butt in? 

14 MR. BlENERT: h,lm-hmm. 

!S MR. WlSENBER& It’s going back a littk 

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3 Ms. Lewinsky was here, she’s signed her afftdaviL she sum 

4 happy with the representation.” If I had a convasation. it 

s would not have been much more than that. 

6 Q When you had such a conversation with Mr. Carter, 

7 did he appear to know already that she had signed tlx 

8 affidavit? 

9 A I don’t think I was giving him new news, that she 

IO had signed the affidavit. 

II Q There was nothing about the call that made you 

12 think that. 

13 A No. 

14 Q Did Mr. Carter at that time indicate anything 

15 substantive about what he planed to do? 

16 A He did not. 

17 Q Now, did you learn at some prior to January 17th 

18 thatPresidcntClintonwasgoingtobe&posedintbePaula 

19 Jones case? 

20 A I’msureIreaditinthenewspaper. 

21 Q Did you have any discussions prior to January 17th 

22 with Rsidcnt Clinton about the fact that be was going to be 

23 deposed? 

24 A I did not have a conversation with the President 

25 about his deposition. I knew that he was going to be &pore _ 

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Page 65 

chronologically, so I’d rather do it now than later. 

BY MR WXENBERG: 

Q Mr. Jordan, our investigation has learned that 

the affidavit - Ms. Lcwinsky’s affidavit was actually 

signed on January 7,1998. Of course, that doesn’t speak 

to when she would have brought it to you, but that it was 

signed. 

My question to you is when you called - you 

told us there was absolutely no connection between your call 

to Perelman and her signing of the affidavit, but a narrower 

question, w-kn you have called Mr. Perelmal& to the best of 

your knowledge, did you know at that point that she had 

signed tht affidavit, to the best of your remembering? 

A I don’t know whether 1 knew it or not. She had 

bczntomyofftceandIthinkIdidknowit,asamatterof 

fact. 

Q Okay. We also have information to suggest that on 

the 12th of January that the Lew%sky affidavit was faxed to 

the attorneys for Paula Jones on January 12th. And the phone 

records we got from your ftrm indicate that on the 12th at 

4:17 pm. you spoke to Ms. Lcwinsky for two minutes. al 4:35 

to tk White House, WC don’t know who, for approximatiy five 

minutes, and at 7:ll pm. to Mr. Bowles for four minutes. 

My question to you, and I’m giving those as a frame 

of refetence, as a background to my question, were you ever 

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informed by anybody on or about the 12th that the Lwinsky 

affidavit had been faxed to Paula Jones’ attorneys? 

A No. 

MR. WSENBERG: I think that’s all I’ve got right 

now. 

BY MR. BlENERT: 

Q Now, you’re awarc from the press, 1 assume, that 

the President’s deposition was on a Saturday, on January 

17th. Does that sound right? 

A tight 

Q Did you ever receive any information, other than 

what you might have read in the press later, that the 

President met with Betty Currie on January 18, on that 

Sunday? 

A Yes, I read that in the press. 

Q Wereyouawamatallonthe18thor19th 

from sources other than the press that the President and 

Ms. Currie met on that Sunday? 

A No. 

Q Have you ever had any discussions with Ms. Currie 

about any m&zing she might have bad with tbc Ptcsidcnt about 

his deposition? 

A No. 

Q Have you ever had any discussions with the 

Predent about any meeting he may have bad with Ms. Cur+ 

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relating to Monica Lewinsky? 

Page 67 i 

A No. 

Q In the times that you have visited with tht 

President in the West Wing, in the Oval Offia or in tha 

area, have you ever been there either before or after sort of 

notmal working hours? And by normal working hours. Id’s say 

eight in tbe morning through six at nigh& Mon&y through 

Saturday. 

Have you ever been there to see the President at a 

different time than that? Either on a Sunday or at night or 

very early in the morning. 

A I have been there early in the morning because of 

an early morning golf game. I have bczn there after 6:00 for 

meetings -- meetings, probably. And I have been there very 

late at night. The night that Vina Foster was killed, I 

left very late that night. 

Q Onthetimeswhenyou’vebeenthereverylateat 

night, which would be times that are well beyond normal 

working hours, obviously you would see the Resident. You 

saw the President on those times, correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Is his usual compkzment of staff -- and by that I 

mean Nancy Hunxich Betty Cur+ tht pcopk who would be 

working in that office right outside his, were they there? 

A If it was late at night, we were not in the Oval 

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Office. If it was late at night, we were in the residenaz 

Q I’m just confining this, then, to the West Wing 

area. 

A Oh. no. 

Q The Oval Office. Have you ever been there well 

beyond normal working hours? 

A I have never been in the West Wing or in or around 

the Oval Office when there was no staff. 

Q And then have you ever bum in the West Wing in or 

around the Oval Office at particularly odd hours, well beyond 

working hours? 

A No. lflwasattheWhiteHouselate,Iwasinthc 

residence. 1 just cannot recall being in the West Wing 

beyond the normal hours with just the President. 

Q 1 assume you’re familiar, at least from the press, 

with what’s been termed in relation to the Monica Minsky 

matter the talking points item. llave you heard that tam? 

A 1 read that. Read a lot about it. 

Q Have you ever seen a copy of a document that it was 

indicated to you was a copy of the talking points? 

A I haven’t seen the so-called talking points. 

Q At any time when you spoke with Ms. Lewinsky, did 

she ever speak to you at all about Kathy Willey? 

A No. 

Q Did she ever make any reference to you about - 

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MWtW’agC Vcmon C. Joraan, Jr., 3-3-95~ 

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Page 65 Page71 

well. let me ask a backup question. Are Lou familiar with 

the fact that there was -- 1 guess what’s king called the 

Kathy Willey episode, namely an item in New-k M@n 

some time ago mfting to what may or may not have happened 

ti the President and Kathy Willey. 

A I’m aware Of that. 

Q Have you ever talked to Monica Lewinsky about 

anything even remotely related to that episode? 

A No. 

Q Did she ever try to bring it up with you? 

A I don’t think so. 1 didn’t have a conversation 

with her about it. 

A I never heard of Linda Tripp until al1 of this 

happened. 

Q So prior to it becoming public, and by that I 

mean in January of this year, you had no knowledge of Linda 

Tripp. 

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“I have had a call from Michael lsikoff of N~sweck M+trnc 

and I don’t know what to do about it.” And I said. “Well. 

why don’t you come to see me?” It was either that or she 

said, “I’ve really got something I want to talk to you about. 

I don’t want to talk you about it hex,” and I said, “Come to 

see me.” 

Q Have you ever had a conversation with Monica 

Lcwinsky about Linda Tripp? 

A No. 

Q Have you ever had a conversation -- and let me 

bracket the time. Up until the time this Monica Lewinsky 

matter became public. so we’ll say up until. say, Januq 

18th or 1 !lth, had you ever had any conversation with anybod: 

about Linda Tripp? 

Andwbenshccamctos&mc,1said,“Betty,what’s 

the problem?” She said, ‘I have a calI from I&off, from 

Nmwadc Magatinc and I don’t know what to do about it and 

would you advise me what to do about it?’ 

And I said, “I will happily advise you what to do 

about it, Betty. You go back to the White House and you talk 

to Mike McCurry and Bruce Lindsey and you ask thn what you 

should do about it, because I cannot give you that advia.’ 

Q Okay. First of all, let’s focus on this a little 

bit. When she called you or when you spoke to her initially 

on that day, I assume you were at your office? 

A Yes. 

Q WhatwasherckmeanorortonewhensbecaUedyou? 

A Well, she was concerned that she had had a call 

from a reporter who was asking her certain questions and she 

didn’tknowwhattodoandshcsaid-thisiswhatsbcsaid 

to me when she got to my offiicc, she wanted to talk about it. 

Q Okay. Well, let’s start and just -- 1 just want to 

focus on the phone call. 

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Page 70 

A That’s right. And I never heard of Monica Lewinsky 

until I got a call from Betty. 

Q Are you familiar with a reporter by the name of 

Isikoff? 

A I think we all know about him. 

Q Other than reading his name in press accounts hen 

and there, what familiarity, if any, do you have with him or 

things about him? 

A I don’t really know him. 1 have some recollection 

that be once worked at The Washington Post and left The 

Washington Post and wt to Newsweek. Ttz Washington Post 

owns both the paper and the magazine. 

Q Have you ever talked to anyone. be it Monica 

Lewinsky, the President, Betty Currie or anyone working at 

the White House, about Mr. Isikoff? 

A Ektty Currie called me, and 1 have the date, 

actually, Betty Currie called me and came to saz me because 

she had a call f&n Michael Isikoff. 

Q You said you had the date? 

A Yes. I think it’s about Friday - it’s Thursday or 

Friday before the 19th. 

Q The 19th was a Monday. 

A Yes. It’s the Thursday or Friday before. 

Q Sothe 15thor 16th. 

A Yes. And Betty Currie called me up and she said, 

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A She calls me and says, “I’ve got a problem and 1 

want to talk to you about it and 1 don’t think I ought to 

talk to you about it from her,” I think she said. And I 

said, “Come to my office.” And she came to my off&. 

Q Now, had anything like that ever occurted with you 

in relation to Betty Currie? 

A No. I tried to be attentive when she lost her 

brother and her sister. I have never involved myself in her 

personal problems. but I consider her to be a friend and 

throughout this administration from time to time individuals 

in the White House have called to ask my counsel and &via 

not as a lawyer, but as a friend. 

And 1 have been accommodating in that ward and so 

whenshesaidshehadaproblem,shewantcdtocometosac 

me,Isaid_“Betty,cometosumc.” Ididn’tknowwbattk 

problemwas. Andtbcproblemwasthatsbebadaeallfram 

Isikoff. 

AndmyadvicetoherwasthatshehadtotaIkand there’s a rule, I think, that forbids White House sta! 

from talking to press without talking to the press office. 

And I said to bcr that I could not solve that problem cxccpt 

toadvisehertotalktoBruceLindseyandtotall<toMike 

McCunyastowhatsheshoulddo,BruceLindseyaboutthe 

legal side of it and to Mike McCtmy about the actual 

communication side of it 

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Page 73 Page 7! 

I Q Now, when she -- as far as you recall, the 1 convsTsz:lon so far, Ms. Cttmie indicated to you that lsikoff 

2 substantive conversation YOU had with her was not on the 

3 phone, it would have been at the office. 

, 2 want& 2 ~1; her about something Elated IO Monxa Lewmslr!, 

j 3 and.- ,cm:cthing related to tapes. 

4 A Yes. ’ 4 What was it about what she said to you that made 

5 Q When you met with her in your office, was anyone/ 5 you concr -‘U&J that she should speak to the Whitz House’s pres 

6 else present? 1 6 person but also to Mr. Lindsey for, I think, you said the 

7 A No. 7 legal end? 

8 Q Did you take any notes? 8 A First of all, she had heard from a newsperson and, 

9 A No. 9 as I understand it, there’s a rule if you hear from a 

0 Q Did sht give you any documents or show you 10 newspa%n you’re supposed to check it out before you talk. 

1 anything? II Q Check it out with the press side? 

2 A No. She did not. 12 A Check it out with the press side. Right. 

3 Q What exactly did she tell you? 13 Sccon~. if you’x a While House staff paxon and you have a 

4 A She told me that she had a call from Isikoff from 14 call, 1 also think you always check with the lawyers. I 

5 Newsweek Magazine, who was calling to make inquiries about IS believe in lawyers and so 1 think you always check with the 

tj Monica kwinsky and some taped conversations. And I said, 16 lawyers about everything. And so I said, “Check with Mike 

7 “You have to talk to Mike McCurry and you have to talk to 17 McCuny, check with Bruce Lindsey.” 

8 Bruce Lindsey.” 18 Q Did Ms. Currie indicate to you in any way that 

9 Q Did Ms. Currie indicate to you in any way that 19 IsikoffindicatedthattheMtureofwhathewantedto2& 

II I&off indicated the tapes in any way involved the 20 about could affect the President? 

1 Resident? 21 A NO. 

2 A No. 22 Q Whether she said Isikoff indicated to tha& did 

3 Q Did she indicate to you, by that, Ms. Currie, who 23 Curt% on her own say anything to you indicating she thought 

4 was purportedly on the tapes? 24 it could affect the President? 

5 A No, and I didn’t ask her that, but there wcrc -- 25 t~ She did not. 

Page 74 Page 7C 

I and I don’t think she knew because it was clear that she had 1 Q Do you know how it was that she got to your offk 

2 not had an extended conversation with Isikoff, that she 2 that day, in terms of did she drive herself, did anyone take 

3 stalIed him, that she put him off, until she could figure out 3 her? 

4 whatitwasthatshecoulddoandoneofthethingsthatshe 4 A She was driven by Monica Lewinsky. 

5 didwastocallmeup. AndshecamctomyofficeandItold 5 Q And how did you know that? 

6 htr what I’ve told you that I told her. 6 A She told me. 

7 Q Did she tell you how long ago the conversation with 7 Q Did Ms. Lewinsky come into your office? 

8 I&off had been? Was it that day? 8 A She did not. 

3 A My sense was that it had been immediate. 9 Q Did you ask Ms. Currie why she didn’t? 

3 Q Did she indicate to you whether she spoke to the 10 A So. Because Ms. Lewinsky had no business in my 

I President about it? I 1 office at that particular time. I had ma& an appointment 

2 A She did not mention the President in this context 12 with Betty Currie and the only way that I knew that Monica 

3 atall. 13 ~winsky was driving, 1 said to her, “How is Ms. Iewinsky?” 

4 Q Did it surprise you that she would come to you as 14 She said, “She’s downstairs in the car waiting for me. She 

5 opposed to, for example, speaking with the President? 15 drove me hem.” 

6 A It did not surprise me at all. 16 That did not surprise me. 1 did not attribute any 

7 Q And why is that? 17 great momLmt to that. They were friends. She is the person 

B A Because I don’t think that that was something that 18 who had introduced me to Monica Lewinsky. 

9 she thought at tht: time that she should bother the President 19 The fact that Monica Lewinsky drove Hetty Cunie 

D with. And she saw me, 1 think, as a person with some mother 20 to the WIIL~ House, stayed in the car while she came upstairs 

1 wit, some common sense and so SIX: came to me and I pave ha 21 for a few minutes to talk to me, 1 viewed that as of no 

2 the best advice I could, and that was to talk to the people 22 moment. 

3 with the responsibility at the White House because I could 23 Q Ms. Currie did indicate to you, though, that the 

4 not advise her. 24 tqes or the reporter wanted to talk to her about, among 

5 Q Now, if I understand what you’ve told us about the 25 other things, the Monica Lewinsky matter. 

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A I think that’s fair to say. 

Q And did it make you want to talk to Monica Lewinsky 

about the matter? 

A No, it did not. 

Vcmon E. Jonlan, Jr., 3-3-Y8, 

Page 77 

Mules 

Pa#$79 

A No. 

Q Did Ms. Lewinsky ever say anything to you about ths 

topic of President Clinton’s deposition? 

A No. 

MR. WISENBERG: Can 1 butt in? 

MR.BIENERT. sure. 

BYMR.WlSENBERG: 

Q You testified, Mr. Jordan. that based on your 

recollection Ms. Currie said that the reporter wanted to know 

about -- tbc call was about Monica Lewinsky and about taped 

conversations, 1 think were your words. 

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Q Never tried to bring it up? 

.4 No. 1 don’t have any recollection of having a 

discussion with Monica Lewinsky about the President’s 

&position. 

Did this - given everything chronologically that 

had happened up to this point, and with particular reference 

to the December 19th phone call to you when she got 

subpoenaed, the fact that you knew there was an affidavit 

signed by this point, did this concern you, this injection of 

taped conversations relating to kvinsky now being brought 

into the picture by a Newsweek reporter? 

Q Now, let’s focus on how and where and when you 

first learned that there may be some allegation or claim, 

u%ctkr public or not, that something bad happer& W 

MonicaLminskyandthcR&dmt. Whmwouidtbatbavcbcen 

and how? 

A It did not concern me because I did not bow the 

substance of the conversations, I did not know really 

entirely what the Isikoff inquiry was about. And so there 

was nothing for me to do about it. 

Q fight. I’m not suggesting thcrc was something for 

you to do about it, but just as a friend of the President, as 

a person who had been helping Monica, did it cause you any 

A It was Tuesday night, the 20th. 

Q And how do you remember that date? 

A David Bloom of NBC awakened me at I :00 in ti 

morning. I was staying at the St. Regis Hotel. And asU M 

foracomfnmt. And.nunbcronc.Iwasstunnalthi3tscuncdmrn 

fool reporter would call me at I:00 in the morning to ask me 

aboutanything. AndIsaidtohimthatIwasgoingbackto 

sleep. And that’s what I did. I did not comment. 

Q Letmebackupasecond. I’lIcomebacktothis. 

One thing I wanted to follow up on. You learned from - 

b&eve you said Ms. Lcwinsky some time bauun January 8th 

and January 15th that she bad in fact been hired by Revlon. 

Page 78 Page! 8\ 

I concern? I Is that right? 

2 A No. 2 A Yes. Right. 

3 Q Did it set off any alarm bells? 3 Q Did you communicate that either directly or 

4 A No. 4 indirectly to the President? 

5 MR. BIENERT: That’s all I have. 5 A I told the President that she had a job. Yes. 

6 BY MR. BIENERT: 6 Q And would it have been some time shortly after you 

7 Q What was Ms. Curric’s dun-nor when she was mating 7 learned that from Ms. Lewinsky? 

8 with you in person on that day? 8 A I don’t think I put tht phone down and then pi&e 

9 A She was her warm, charming, lovely self. 9 itup,butatsomtpoinfIinformdthcRtsideatthatmy 

0 Q Did she appear concerned? o magic had worked, that she had a job. 

1 A Yes. 1 Q It would have been, though, within a day or so of 

2 Q Was she more serious than usual? 2 leaming? 

3 A ShewasBetty C&e, butshewasconcemed. 3 A Absolutely. 

4 I mean, she was not xeping, she was not in some unusual 4 Q And what was the President’s reaction? 

5 traumatic state. She called because she had a problem. 5 A The President was grateful, hc said thank you_ 

6 1 helped her with her problem and she went -- and I assume 6 Q Whenyoubadthatdiscussionwithhim,didhesay 

7 that she talked to Mike McCuny and that she talked lo Bruce 7 anything else about Ms. Lewinsky? 

8 Lindsey. I do not know what happened after that. 8 A No. 

9 Q Ms. Cunie did not give you any kind of follow-up? 9 Q When you had that discussion with him, did you 

0 A I don’t recollect having followed up with her. 0 speakaboutanyothertopicswithhim? Otlxrthanjustlik 

I Q And I assume you didn’t get any follow-up from Mr. 1 greetings? 

2 Lindsey or Mr. McCuny? 2 A 1 have never had a conversation with the Preside. 

3 A No reason for me to have gotten follow-up from 3 wkre the subject of Monica Lxwinslcy was the only subjax. 

4 either of them. 4 MR. WISENBERG: May I butt in a second? 

5 Q Okay. So you did not? 5 MR. BIENERT: h&n+mm. 

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MR. WJSENBERG: Since you’re going back on the 

chronology. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q There is some indication from the records, 

Mr. Jordan, that on the evening of the day that Ms. Ctie 

was driven to your office to have this conversation abol 

Is&off that some time that evening you calIed her at home. 

I don’t know right now wktber or not you wu~ able to reach 

htr, but then’s some indication. Do you have any 

recollection of calling her that evening at home? 

A I don’t have any recollection but if I called her, 

itwasnodoubttortassurthcrofthtadvictthatIhad 

given her. 

MR. WsENBERG: That’s all I have right now, Tom. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q Andletmejust - because we’re up to the 20th bu 

I’m realizing -- so we can make sure that we’ve covered 

everything in between, let’s go back a second. You 

indicated, I think, in the note you gave us, the chronology, 

tbatsomcwhercbctwanJanuarylZlhandJan~I5tbiswbcn 

you actually met for the fourth time with Ms. Lewinsky? 

A Right. 

Q Why don’t you tell us about that meeting? 

A She called and asked if she could come by. 

Q And would this have been before or after she let 

Page 82 

you know that she had a job? 

A She let me know -- she had called to say “I got the 

job.” 

Q Okay. 

A And she called to say, “May I please come by?” 1 

said, “I am really very busy.” She said, “It won’t take very 

long. I would like to stop by.” She stopped by and she gave 

my two secretaries, I think, calendars and she gave me the 

tie and the kerchief that 1 told you about. 

Q And did you actually meet with her in your office? 

A She came in the office, she gave me the tic. I 

said, “Monica, I am really busy. Thank you.” She thanked 

me, she’s gone. 

Q Any substantive conversation? 

A No. 

Q Did she make any reference or attempt to make any 

refenznce to her affidavit or situation with Mr. Carter? 

A No. 

0 approximately the 15th with Ms. Cunie about the call she got 

1 from the reporter? 

2 A I think this was after, but I don’t know whether it 

3 was before or after. I think one was on the Thursday, one 

4 was on the Friday, it was before the weekend. 

5 Q They were both in the same rough timeframe. 

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A Yes. But whether Betty came Thursday, whether 

Betty came Friday, I don’t know. And 1 don’t think it’s on 

my calendar because when Betty’s call came, 1 said_ ‘Come 

right over.” And it was at the end of the day, I do remember 

that, and it was also 31 the end of the day, as I best 

rananba it. when Moma Lcwinsky came and brought tbc gifts. 

Unsolicited gifts, might I add. 

Q Okay. Now, you were telling us about Tuesday, the 

20th. What exactly did David Bloom tell you? 

A “Will YOU COIWXXfl 5” as I recollect. Mind you, 

I’m sound asleep. Would you comment on sonxthing about 

Resident Clinton and &mica kvinsky and your invo~\rmnt 

something like that. And I said, “I am going back to sleep.’ 

And that’s what I did. Hung up the phone. 

Q Did you make any even association of what he could 

be referring to? 

A Well, I went back to sleep, so I didn’t spend a 

whole lot ol’ Gnr: dealing with David. I was unhappy &out 

being awakened and reminded of -- well, that’s an editorial 

comment that I don’t want to make. 

Q Were you unhappy about anything else, based an what 

he told you? 

A No, just unhappy about being awakened. 

Q Was there anything about what hc told you that 

sugeesti that now IIKZC was some issue about Monica L&n&y 

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and the President and that you had unfortunately been 

involved in helping Monica Lewinsky get a job? 

A No. No. 

Q Okay. Did then ever come a time when you 

reflected on that fact. namely, just that there were 

allegations about Motuca Lewinsky and the President and 

how it made you feel in light of the fact that you had 

been asked to get a job? 

A l’vc ncvcr been worried about it. 1 have been 

inconvcnicnced by it. 

Q Let mc back up just a little bit. On the page that 

you have as your outline or the dates, there’s an entry that 

says January 19th, FC lunch, Drudge Report. 

A Yes. That’s the lunch on the Martin Lutlxr King 

birthday, at the Park Hyatt Hotel, with Fr+nIc Carter. 

Q Now, first of all, how did you arrange the lunch 

with Mr. Carter? 

A You’ll notice on the records there’s a series of 

phone calls. We’d bum talking back and forth about having 

lunch and we’re going to have lunch and we worked it out tha 

we would huvc lunch on h4anin Lutbcr King holiday and m mcl 

at the Park Hyatt Hotel at 12:30. 

Q During that lunch, what discussion, if any, did yor 

have with him about Monica Lewinsky? 

A Very little discussion about Monica Lcwinsky, but I J 

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Page 85 

did give him a copy of the Dru4e Report. That’s why the 

Drudge Report is listed in this outline that we gave you. 

The day before, which was a Sunday, I had had lunch with 

Bruce Lindzy. I think I mentioned that on Tuesday when I 

was here. And Bruce Lindsey shared with me a faxed copy 01 

the Drudge Report. 

And when I met with Frank, 1 gave him a copy of 

the Drudge Report because I thought thal was information 

that might be helpful to his defense or whatever. his 

representation, not defense, his representation of Monicz 

Ixwinsky, and so I shared that with him. It was a piece of 

information I had and I shared it with him. 

Q Okay. Well. then. let’s back up so we can get the 

unnpkte chronology on this. So then on Sunday. which would 

have been, I guess, the 18th -- 

A Right. 

Q You had lunch with Bruce Lindsey’! 

A Bruce Lindsey. 

Q Now, was that something that you had ammgcd some 

time before or done kind of on rhe cuff? 

A Well, on the cuff which is about the best way for 

Bmce Lindsey and I to have lunch. We just sort of do it. 

We had not had lunch sina we were to&er at Martha’s 

Vineyard and from time to time I see him for lunch or for 

breakfast to get caught up on things. 

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Page 86 

I like him a lot. I worry about him and I think 

about him. And I think a lot about what he’s going to 

do when this administration is over. We’ve had many 

conversations about that. And so we _eot togthcr for lunch. 

Q How did you arrange to have lunch with him Were 

you somcwke and you saw him and then you said “La’s have 

lunch”? 

A 1 think it was a telephone conversation. 

Q And would the conversation have been before the 

weekend or on the weekend? 

A Probably Friday. 

Q Now, during the lunch, what topics did you guys 

discuss, you and Mr. Lindsey? 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Before you answer that, do you recall, Mr. Jordan, 

whether or not Bruce Lindsey called you to set up the lunch 

or you called him? 

A Honestly, 1 CarKIOt say. 

MR. WISEN’BERG: I’m son-y. Go ahead. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q What topics did you and Mr. Lindsey discuss during 

lunch on Sunday, the 1 Xth? 

A It was a gorgeous day. WC talked about the 

weather. We talked about our kids. which IS always a great 

topic of conversation. 1 shared with him my views on 

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settlement. 

Page 87 

Q Of the Paula Jones case? 

A Of the Paula Jones case. I just told him I thougl 

that the Paula Jones case ought to be settled. Told him I 

thowht that the Supreme Court was wrong in it’s nine-zero 

decision and that the Paula Jones case ought to be put to 

resl. And that was my belief and he fundamentally agrud 

with me. But there was not much we could do about it exctpr 

to do what we do and that was lo give advia as to what wnc 

thought ought to happen in the Paula Jones case. I still 

think it ought to bc settled. 

And he said lo me, “Have you seen the Drudge 

Report?” I had never heard of the Drudge Report. And 

he showed me the Drudge Report, which was about tl~ 

conversations that Monica Lcwinsky had had with Linda 

Tripp, which came to me as a total surprise. That was our 

lunch. 

Q And the report itself indicated that the content 

of those amvcrsatiom between Monica Lcwhsky and Linda 

Tripp involved the President, corrtct? 

A ~Ircc&ct,yes. 

Q WhatdidMr.Lindseysaytoyouabouttkrqxntin 

Elation to tk President? 

A “Here it is.” The report was res ipsa loquitur. I 

mean, there it was. 

Page bc 

1 Q Did hc make any statements at all about the repon 

2 other than “Here it is”? 

3 A I think that’s about it_ It was here was a report, 

4 wtr3.ber it was true or not, whether there was an 

5 authentication of it, nobody knew at the time. 

6 Q when you say authentication, you mean the tapes? 

7 A Yes, whether it was actually true. Didn’t anyb& 

8 know. I mean, I still don’t know, but he shared tht DNdgc 

9 Report with me. 

10 MR. WISENBERG: Can I butt in for a second? 

II MR. BIENERf: ti-hmm. 

12 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

13 Q For those of us who didn’t go to law school or 

14 didn’t do well in law school or didn’t take Latin as kids 

I5 can you enlighten us as to res ipsa loquitur? 

16 A AsIremember,itmeansthethingspe24ksfor 

17 its&. Iapologizetothegrandjury. 

18 Q That’s aI1 right. Just19 A But I like the word. Sounds good. 

20 A JUROR: Say it again? 

21 THE WITNESS: Res ipsa loquitur, rt-s i-p-sa 

22 I-o-q-u-i-t-u-r. How’s that for Latin spelling? 

23 BY MR. BIENERT: 

24 Q Now, did Mr. Lindsey indicate that the President 

25 was aware of the Drudge Report? 

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I A 1 do not know the answer to that. 1 didn’t feel tha: way because you knew you didn’t do an]tillp 

2 Q Did he -- ; 2 wrong, correct? 

3 A We only talked about the President in terms of ; 3 A And 1 know that now. 

4 settling. I’m not even sure the President was in town. I 4 Q Now separate -- I’m just trying to separate issues. 

5 think the President was at Camp David_ as a matter of fact. 5 A Yes. 

6 And there was no discussion of the Prhknt. I don’t know ’ 6 Q But separate and apart from that, did you 

7 whtther the President knew it or not. 7 have some sort of reaction of why am I involved in this 

8 Q And Mr. Lindsey didn’t indicate one way or the 1 8 because these - let me back up. Once you learned rhe 

9 other. / 9 information about ttk: Dr~dgc Report, was there tin!? 

0 A No. i 10 a lot more floating around about the Monica Lewi~~ky 

1 Q Didhccxpressconozmor constemation or whatever j I 1 situation that you would have anticipated when you 

2 would be the word about the fact that now there was an issue j 12 first got the call from Betty Cunie, hty, can you lrlp 

3 that had arisen affecting the President in relation to Monica 13 her get a job? 

4 Lewinsky? 14 A I said to you that I felt a tad inconv&cnced 

5 A Well, it was clear that there was a problem and 15 but the inconvenience did not start until I was met by tk 

6 what to do about that problem wz did not get into it. The 16 press corps at National Airport. That’s where they got 

7 Rsident was represented by counsel, White House was not 17 inconvenient8 rrp~tinghim,andsowcdidnot-Idon’tthinkwcgot 18 Q And when would that date have been? 

g intothewfiysandwhacforesastowhatoughttobedone 19 A That would have been Wednesday, the 22nd_ 

0 about the situation. 20 Q So now on the 18th. with this Drudge Report 

.I Q Now, when you first got involved with Monica 21 aspect -- 

2 m&y, it was your understanding that sht was just Somcont 22 MR. WISENBERG: Just for the record, sorry to butt 

‘3 who &tty Ctie was asking you to get a job. 23 in, I think Wednesday was the 2lst. 

‘4 A Right. 24 THE wr~?Z%: Okay. ‘Ihe 2lst. Right. Thank you. 

5 Q So your first knowledge is this is someone they ,25 Thank you. 

Page 90 1 Page 92 

I want you to help get a job -- ! 1 BY MR. BIENERT: 

2 A Betty Currie, not they. Betty Currie. 2 Q So now we’re still prior to that time, when you 

3 Q Okay. That Betzy Ctie wants you to help get a 3 strutcd feeling inconvenienced. 

4 job and you agree to help and you try to help, correct? 4 A No. no. Let’s get the time of the inconvenience 

5 A And I did help. s right_ If you’re accustomed to getting off the shuttle and 

6 Q Then later on, you learn that Monica Lewinsky is 6 walking through the airport and going to your car and all of 

7 someone who has been sub- in the Paula Jones case - 7 a sudden you are met by a bunch of cameras, it’s at that 

8 A And I got her a lawyer. 8 point that it became inconvenient. 

9 Q Correct. And then finally on January 18th, you’re 9 Q That’s the point I’m trying to make. I’m saying m 

0 now given information that alleges that Monica Lcwinsky had 10 the 1 Sth, with Mr. Lindsey, you weren’t up to that point yet. 

; some sort of a relationship with the President. Is that I I That came a few days later. on the 21st. 

2 right? 12 A Yes. 

3 A Rij$t. 13 Q The reporters. 

4 Q How did you feel once you learned this third layer 14 A Right. 

5 of information? 15 Q So you didn’t feel anything, any inconxnience 

6 A Felt very good because I had, as I said to you on 16 or-- 

7 Tuesday, conversations on the 19th with both the President 17 A I didn’t feel anything when I saw the Drudge 

8 and Monica Lewinsky about sexual dations and I got negative 18 Report. No. 

9 answers from both of them, so there was nothing for me to be 19 Q Did you say anything to Mr. Lindsey during the 

!O concerned about. And I had never heard of Drudge, I’d never 20 lunch on the 18th about the Drudge Report, the Rcsidenl 

!I beard of Linda Tripp and so, I mean, I had no reason to be 2 I and/or Monica-kwinsky in relation to the fact of the Drudge 

2 concerned. 22 Report? 

!3 Q And let me set aside, one issue is whether or not 23 A No. Here it is. Thank you. What is thereto say? 

!4 you felt that you personally bad some teason to be concerned 24 Q All right. Now we go to - well, after getting 

!5 as to whether you did anything wrong and you indicated you 25 lhal information from Mr. Lindsey. namdy, tbc Drudge Repm 

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in between the 18th when you got it from him and the 2Oti 

when this rrsp01-1~~. Dav~l Bloom collui you. did you m~kc an? 

calls, whether it was calls or not, did you speak uith anyone 

about t& issue of Monica Lewinsky and IJK informalron in the 

Drudge Report? 

Vcmon E. Jordan, Jr., 3-5-Y8, 

Page 93 

Multi~ 

Page 95 

show4 me the Drudge Report, but he showed me the Drudge 

Repon. He showed me the Drudge Report. 

A I spoke with thz President from the St. Regis Hate 

early Wednesday morning. 

Q Which is the 2lst. 

A The 2lst I believe he said. Right. 

Q Up until that point, had you made any attempts to 

contact between the 18th the lunch with Mr. Lindsey, and 

speaking to the President on Wednesday, the 2 1 sf had you 

made any attempts to get a hold of the President? 

A I don’t think we talked but I don’t know. The 

records -- WIG may have talked. This is also just before tlx 

State of tbc Union, E&ix Books had ma& up his mind. Iraq 

was -- 

Okay. But you had said it before. 

Yes. 

You had said it in the past 

Yes. 

Q Well, let me do this, to make it easier for point 

of reference because I did get the records together beginning 

on the 18th. 

A !hre. 

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Q Because you have testified both Tuesday and I think 

today that your position has been, is and will continue to be 

that that case should be settled. It’s not something that 

you’re just coming up with for the first time on the 18th 

A No, it’s not. 

Q But your reiteration of that at some point in the 

conversation would bc on the 18th. 

A It wasn’t a reiteration, it was just a par& of tk 

discussion. 

You were saying it again now. 

I was just being consistent. 

Was your saying it again on this occasion in any 

MR. BIENERT: So what I’m going to do. and we 

have several topics. if I could just take a second and 

pass them around, Madam Foreperson. And we’ll mark this 

VI-7. 

way affected by this visit from Ms. Currie where she 

mentioned that I&off called and there were taped 

conversations? 

A No. 

Q And you mentioned on that conversation of the 18th 

you talked about the weatber, you talked about your kids, you 

stated that the case should bc settled, Mr. Lindsey said 

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Page 94 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. VJ-7 was 

marked for identification.) 

MR. WISENBERG: While you’re doing that, Tom, while 

it’s being passed around. can 1 ask one or two more questions 

about the maeting with Mr. Lindsey? Or do you want to go 

into this more? 

h4R. BIENERT: No. 

BY MR. WISEhiERG: 

Q Mr. Jordan, before we get to the matters on this 

exhibit, do you recall why you met with Mr. Lindsey on the 

18th? 

A On the 18th? I said earhcr in my testimony that 

from time to time I have breakfast or lunch with Bruce 

Lindsey, whom I like very much and it’s a mutual feeling. 

I believe. And we just sort of get together and we taIk. 

This was not a planned meeting, it was not some emergency 

meeting to deal with anything, it was just a meeting in the 

order of our friendship. 

Q Was there anything in particular you wanted to 

convey at this meeting? 

A No. 

Q You conveyed to him, I take it, before hc showed 

you the Drudge Repor& you conveyed to him your conviction 

that the case should be settled, the Paula Jones case. 

A I don’t know at what point during the lunch ht 

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you beard about the Drudge. Reporf “Here’s a copy of the 

Dmdge Repon,” which you md and took with you lxcausc you 

twzmbcr xading it. What else do you remember about that 

conversation? 

A That it was just a general lunch of fellowship and 

friendship. 

Q Nothing else substantive that you recall about the 

conversation? 

A No. 

Q You said earlier that when you read the Drudge 

Report, you didn’t feel anything. Did you have - and, 

again, I’m not talking at all now about any concems for 

yourself, ATE you at all concemal after reading and bearing 

about it, concerned now about - conazmed for the F’msidcnt, 

cottaa-& about what was now b&outing the Monica Lcwinslcy 

situation? 

A No. I wasn’t -- I think I probably didn’t believe 

the Drudge Report. 1 think 1 was probably dismissive of it 

Q Even in light of all you’ve told us about the whole 

historyofMonicaLewinskyrallinnyouupintcarsaboutthe 

subpoena - 

A ‘Ihat was nothing in my relatioI&ip from Dcamba 

llthmwitbMs.Lminskyformctomakcajudgmeatthatshc 

washavingtapedconversationwithsomebo@else. Ihadnot 

basis to come to that conclusion. 

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I MR. WLSENBERG: That’s all I have right now. I Q And do you bclicve that when she does th3t she 

2 BY MR. BIENERT: 2 might USC -- 

3 Q And before we start on the calls and things th3t 3 A _ 

4 happened from the 18th on up, I just want 10 make sure I’m 4 Q Yes. Ttwe xc twa. It’s- and-. 

5 char oo who you did or didn’t talk UI about Monica bwinsky 5 A Right. Right. And that’s checkable. When 1 call 

6 and/or the Paula Jones WE And we’ve cowzred a lot of the 6 Gail, 1 don’t dial this number. 

7 tir&rztmesandIthinkwe’vecovereditupatleastthrough 7 Q Okay. I see what you’re saying. You dial a 

8 ~buZZndwhcnyoubrou&tMs.Lcwir&yroFronirCana. 8 different number to get her? 

9 Butottirthanthcdiscussionsyou’vetoldusaboutwithtbt 9 A 1 did- if I’m away. 

0 Rcsidcnt and you’ve told us about with Ms. Lcuinsky, did you 10 Q And she picks up for you. Okay. All right. Well 

1 spez&toany~meclsepriortothe 18thcmanythiq3rtlatedto I 1 let’s go through some of the calls. Now. was your lunch ti 

2 t& subject maftct of Monica hwinsky and lu bdng a witness 12 youhadwithMr.Lindseyonthc18th,wasthatanormal 

3 in tht Paula Jones case? 13 lunchtime. like somewhere nvelve to one, or was it early. 

4 A No, sir. 14 late, et cetera? 

5 MR WENBERG: And that’s January 18th? 15 A Like 12:30. 

.6 MR BIENERT: Yes. 16 Q Okay. So it would h3ve been after this first 

,7 BY MR. BIENERT: 17 entry, which is an 11:49 call, if you look at the first entry 

8 Q And that would include the President’s attorneys, 18 on the prrgc. 

,9 people at the White House, et cetera, correct? 19 A Yes. 

!O A Right. 20 Q The first call, and let’s just go through them, on 

!I Q All right. Now, let’s go ahead and look at some of 21 the 1 Slh, that Sunday, from your office phone to the White 

!2 thz calls here. And, first of all, if you notice the -- one, 22 HOW operator at 11:49. Do you have any kka who you might 

~3 two, three, fourth column, it says from and that would 23 hnve been calling and what that might have been about? 

!4 indicate the number from which these calls were made and 24 A I do not. 

!5 there’s, as I scan it. thcrc’s only a couple of numbers. one 25 Q Could it hnve been just to talk to Mr. Lindsey to 

Page 98 Page 100 

1 ofwhichisw. 1 confirm lunch? 

2 A That’s my number. 2 A It could have been. 

3 Q At work, correct? 3 Q All right. Now, the next call is 3t 1:06. Do you 

4 A At work. 4 believe that that would have heen - I’m sorry, it’s 1919, so 

5 Q Tlxnwesee_. Whatnumbcrwouldthatbe? 5 that’s -- we’re using military time, that’s 7:OO at nighs is 

6 Doyousee-it’stowardsthebottomofthepage,thefirst 6 that right? 

7 pa%e. 7 A That’s right. 

8 A Yes. 1 don‘t know. It wouldn’t be from my car, it 8 Q 7:00 on Sunday night after you learned about the 

9 wouldn’t be from a cell phone. a -- 9 Drudge Report, you called to White House Counsel’s Offla. 

,O Q And I can just tell you for information, just so IO Do you rcc3ll who you would have called then? 

1 I you’ll know, and I’m certainly not saying that I know this to 11 A It could have barn Cheryl Mills. And that’s 

12 be true but just if it helps you, I was given a list of I 2 checkable. 

,3 purported numbers for you and I show four numbers under the 13 Q Okay. And what would you have discussed with Ms. 

14 column of Akin Gump office, {_I- 14 Mills in th3t call? 

is A Yes, that’s my private number. I5 A It could have been the Drudge Report. I could have 

.6 Q _ and- 16 lxm asking ahow ti Drudge Repon. I don’t know what 1 was 

7 A Yes. That could be - I think that’s probably 17 calling Cheryl Mills about. But she’s likely the only person 

:8 Gail’s number. 18 I would have called in the White House Counsel’s Ofliicc. 

19 Q Your secretary? 19 Q And if you had been asking her about the Drudge 

!O A My secretary’s number. 20 Report, wh3t would be the nature of your inquiry? 

!l Q And is it true that on occasion you would have 21 A To explain the Drudge Report. 

!2 Gail - when you wanted to make a call, you would just say, 22 Q Becnuse you had never heard of it before. 

!3 “Hey, Gail, get a hold of so and so,” and then get on the 23 A I ncvcr had heard of it. 

t4 phone? 24 Q And what did she tell you it was? 

lis A That’s Correct. That’s mmct. 25 A Well, I’m not even sure that I talked to htr. It’s 

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a minute six-second call. If I talked lo her. that is -- I 

don’t know what it was about. actually. 

Q Okay. But that could have been one of the topics, 

you’re just not sure. 

A Could have been. 

munti-riage vynon c. Joraan, Jr_;;;;;, 

I whether it was Nancy Hemreich. 1 would have dialed thai 

z directly. I was in the White House on the 19th, I believe. I 

Q All right. Can you think of any other topic that 

you would have called Ms. Mills on a Sunday night at 7:00 at 

that timeframe? 

A I’ve spent some time encouraging Ms. Mills about 

her future and so it could well have hum ahout that, Simply 

because I think that given her long tenure and her excellent 

wice that she needs to think about her next steps and we 

havehad--~tall<aboutthatallthetimcandshehasbecn 

thinking about what it is that she wants to do. I have sort 

of one notion about what she ought to do and she has another 

notion about what she ought to do and I’ve been vying to 

counsel her in that regard. 

Q Would you normally expect, at least in a normaI 

working week, Ms. Mills to be at her office in the -- 

A Almost any time. She’s a workaholic. 

Q Now, Bruce Lindsey, who you had lunch with thal 

day, he also works in the White House Counsel’s Office 

correct? 

A That’s right. I know his extension when I want to 

3 Q Now, if we look at the time of this caII you caIk 

4 at lo:29 in the morning. 

5 A Ri&t. 

6 Q And it was a three and a half minute call. 

7 A Ri@ltm 

8 Q Which gets us in essence right up to 10:300. 

9 A Right. 

0 Q When you then immediately made a call to ,Monica 

I Lewinsky’s message center. Is that right? 

2 A Right. 

3 Q Okay. So you would have in essene caIIed thz 

4 WhitcHoust,hungupandthentritdtogetaholdofMonica 

5 Lcwifsky? 

6 A M’S a very short time bctwben 10%) and 10% 

7 Q WasyourcalItothcWhiteHouscat 10:29- 

8 youwantadtogo~andma%withsomamcabouttkMonica 

9 Lcwinsky situation? 

!O A No. 

!I Q Did your calling at the White House at lo:29 in tbc 

!Z morning, did it have anything to do with Monica LewinsLy? 

!3 A It had nothing to do with Monica I&vi&q. 

!4 Q DidithaveanythingtodowiththeDrudgeRcpoR? 

find him. !5 A It had nothing lo do with the Drudge Report. 

Page 102 

Q Okay. So it’s a different number than this one? 

A Yes. When I talk to Cheryl Mills. I callQ And, in fact. we can see down the! page it says 

Bruce Lindsey, is that ‘w 

A That’s right. 

Q So if you were calling for Mr. Lindsey, you’d call 

that number. 

A That’s right. 

Q Okay. Now, the third entry down. and I apologize 

I should have had them put numbers, it would have ma& it a 

lot easier to kuzp track, but we see l/19/98, lo:29 a.m., a 

call to White House operator for three minutes and 42 

seconds. Do you see that? 

A Right. 

Q Okay. Now, this would have been the day after you 

leamed about the Drudge Report. Do you have any idea who 

you would have been calling at the White House on that day? 

A That is on the 19th, it’s 1O:OO in the morning, I 

am calling be-cause I ended up in the White House that 

1 afternoon. 

I Q Okay. You were calling for what reason? 

2 A To work out a time lo go to the White House that 

3 afternoon. 

1 Q And who would you have spoken to in that call? 

5 A I don’t know who made it possible for me to get in, 

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Q Did it have anything to do with the Paula Jones 

case? 

A It had nothing lo do with the Paula Jones case. 

Q Why did you want to go lo the White House on th 

19th? 

A I don’t remember why I wanted to go to the White 

House. IIcnewtheFbesidentwasthere,Iknewitwasa 

holiday and that thenz wnt people there, there wue things 

to talk about. But I was not making a trip to tk Whir 

House to talk about Monica Lcwinsky. 

Q WbatdoyounonnallydoontkDr.KinghoIiday? 

IsthatadaythatyouusualIyworkordon’tworkoristbz 

any pattern to it at all? 

A Yes. I work every day. And Dr. King’s holiday is 

no exception. My judgment is that had he had his way. he’d 

have us work, too. 

Q % it's nothing UnUSUal abOUt the faCtthat YOU 

wacconductingworkonthisDr.Kingday. ‘Ibt’stkway 

19 you normally do it anyway. 

0 A I work every day. 

1 Q Now,wbywereyoutxyingtogetahoIdofMonir 

2 Lewinsky? 

3 A I don’t know. I called her twice and I think if 

4 youlookattheendofthedaythatImayhavecalledha5 again, I don’t know why 1 was calling Monica Minsky that 

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Q Well, if we look down, because if I look at the 

19th, it basically goes from the third line down to - 

A WhattimeofthedayamIcaIlingMonicaLzwinsky? 

Q It’s 10:33, it’s a page, and then 10:34. 

A Yes. I didn’t get her. 

Q Right. And then you called back. And then if you 

continue down, 35 minutes la&r the&s an entry at 11:13, 

another message to Monica Lewinsky. 

A Right. 

Q Now, again, do you have any idea why you were 

calling her? 

A I do not_ 

Q Well, do you think it was at all related to tht 

Drudge Report you‘d learned the day before? 

A I would not have called her to ask her about tht 

Drudge Report 

Q Well, as of this time period, you had already 

succeeded in securing her a job, correct? 

A Right. 

Q And you’d already succeeded in securing her a 

competent attorney, correct? 

A Right. But I also had a relationship with her. 

Q Okay. And I was going to ask you, what would b 

the reason, then, after doing those things with the attorney 

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Page 106 

and the job, that you would ever call Monica Lewinsky? 

A Well, as I said to you and as I think I’ve 

indicated, 1 do follow-through, update, see how people are, 

see if she was happy. I may have been calling to thank her 

for the tie. 1 don’t know why I was calling Monica Lrwinsky 

I’m certain that I was not calling Monica Lewinsky to ask her 

about the Drudge Report. 

Q Or anything r&ted to the President? 

A Absolutely not. I had been satisfied on that. 

Q Does the fact that you paged her three times in the 

course of an hour indicate to you that it was important to 

you that you get a hold of her quickly? 

A Yes, but I cannot for the life of me tell you what 

that was about and that is just the truth. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q I want to just make sure on a couple of questions 

back. It wouldn’t have been related to rhe Drudge I&port, 

the call would not have been related to the Drudge Report or 

to her relationship to the President? 

A Absolutely not. 

MR. WISENBERG: Okay. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q Or the Paula Jones case. 

A Why would I talk to Monica Lewinsky about the 

Paula Jones czc? 

Pagg 10’ 

1 Q 1 just wanted to make sure. 

2 A I’m positive that it was not a call about the Paula 

3 Jones case. 

4 Q And then shortly -- it looks like right after the 

s lo:34 call to try to get a hold of Ms. Lewinsky thxe’s a 

6 call to Nancy Hemreich who works outside the Presidmt’s 

7 office, corTect? 

8 A I-hat’s right. 

9 Q Why would you have been calling Ms. Hemreich? 

0 A 7h;ll’sbscausrIwasgoingto~WhiteHouseand 

I It may lx that she was going to get me into the south2 gate. 

3 Q I’m assuming because of the location of your office 

4 and the location of the White House you can get from your 

5 office to the White House pretty quickly, correct? 

6 A Pretty quickly. 

7 Q Like how long? 

8 A DuPont Circle to the White House, five minutes. 

9 Q Now, I guess at IO:44 on_ the 19th_ you called 

o Erskinc Bowles. White House Chief of Staff. 

1 A Yes. To find out if he was going to be in and 1 

2 was in his office during the time that I was at the White 

3 House. 

4 Q So your intent in going to the White House, Thor, 

5 was to sneak with the Presidtnt and then also while YOU were 

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Page 108 

there to speak with Mr. Bowles? 

A Yes. WhcnIgototheWh.iteHouse,Itrytostop 

in and just -- I visit. 1 check around on my friends and my 

colleagues thLx, how are you, what’s going on. And Ersicinc 

Bowlcs i?; 2 good I’riend of mine that if he’s there I always 

stop in 111s office and WC chew the fat. 

CJ DIG you want to speak with Mr. Bowles on that day 

about anything in particular? 

A No. 

Q Did you want to speak with the President on that 

day about anything in particular? 

A No. 

Q And to bc specific, did you want to speak 

with cithcr of those men about the Drudge Report, 

Melinda Lcwinsky -- 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

left it 

MR. WISENBERG: Monica Lewinsky. 

BY MK. BIENEKT: 

Monica Lcwinsky or the Paula Jones case? 

I did not. 

Now, at I053 on the 19th, you called Frank Carter. 

That was to confirm lunch 

Okay. And then shortly thereafter at 11 AM, you 

mcssilge -- well, there’s a short call to the phone of 

Bruce Lindsey, is that right? 

A And that may have been about lunch the next day. 

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Q The next day meaning on the 20th” Bccau.sc you b.2 

lunch the day before -- 

A The day before. Yes. 

Q Do you know why you would have been calling Bnrr 

Lindsey on the 19th? 

A Maybe to say that I was going to be in the Whit0 

HouscbccaustIsawhimwhenIwasinthcWhiteHo~. 

Q Do you know what you would have wanted to spcab: tc 

Mr. Lindsey about on the 191h? 

A As I said to you, when I’m in the White House. I 

check around to see who’s working. It was a holiday, are ,VM 

there, I’m going to be in. 

Q Now, all of these people at the While Ilouse, Bruce 

Linw. Erskine Bowls. Nancy Hcmrcich wirn you call tlxir 

individual numbers, do they have answering machines? 

A They all have answering machines. Yes. 

Q So if they’re not there and the answering machine 

picks up, you can leave a quick message if you want 

A Yes. Right. 

Q And would your assumption he that when wc see w 

shon calls, just 20 seconds or so. that that would mean 

you’re probably leaving a message? 

A I have to assume that. 

Q Do you typically leave a m-e when you get their 

message machine or do you just hang up? 

Page 11C 

1 A Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t. Sometimes ii 

2 I’m doing something else, 1’11 hold the phone. 

3 Q So then at I 1: 13. there’s another attempt to get a 

4 hold of Monica Lewinsky. 

5 A Right. 

6 Q Then at 1 1: 17. there’s another attempt to get a 

7 hold of Bruce Lindsey. is that right’! 

B A Right. 

9 Q Now, that is a minute and 36 second call, so do you 

D assume then that you did speak lo him? 

1 A I assume that I did speak to him. 

2 Q Do you know what you spoke lo him about? 

3 A I’m going to be in the White House, are you going 

4 to be around? 

5 Q Anything of a substantive natwe? 

5 A I doubt it. 

7 Q I’m sorry? 

B A I doubt it. 

3 Q Now, at 165 I, first of all, what time do you think 

1 you went to the White House that day? 

I A It was after my lunch with Frank Carter. 

2 Q Okay. So the chronology, then, if we’re putting 

3 things in order, we have the calls that you made be1 IO:29 and 11:17, and then we don’t have another call until 

5 1651, which is 4:41. 

Page I 11 

1 A That’s correc:. 

2 Q So is it accurxc. then, that you like would have 

3 gone to lunch with Frank Carter? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q Okay. So let’s talk about that lunch with Frank 

60rter. 

7 MR. WWSBERG: Just for the record, and I’m not 

8 rryingtobetoote&ical,but 1651 wouldbe4:51. Yousaid 

9 it would be 4:4 I. 

IO MR. BIENERT. Okay. Thank you. 

II Speaking of lunch, because I’m just noticing it is 

: 2 12:30 and I want to make sure we’re acting accordingly. 

,3 MR. WISENBERG: Let me check. 

14 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you for being observant 

.5 We’ll wait for Sol’s rep06 but continuing until that time. 

6 BY MR. BJENERT: 

7 Q Mr. Jordan, is it all right if we continue while 

8 we’re waiting? 

9 A Whatever10 MR. BLENERT: I think that’s what the foreperson 

II would prefer. 

12 THE FoREPERSON: Yes. He’s going to check. 

:3 MR. WISENBERG: Lunch is here. 

‘4 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. 

:5 MR. BIENERT What time are we -- 

Page II‘ 

1 THE FOREPERSON: 1:30. 

2 MR. BIENERT: Okay. 

3 MR. WISENBERG: By the way, the record - 

4 yes&&y’s transcript reflects that Mr. Bienert said lunch 

5 is here. I believe I said lunch is here. Just for the 

6 record. Just for the record. 

7 THE FOREPERSON: And it wasn’t yesterday. 

8 MR. BIENERTZ I’m sorry, did we say 1:30? 

9 THE WlTNES: 1:30? 

0 THE FOREPERSON: 1:30. 

1 THE NllWES Thank you. 

2 THE FoREPERsON: Thank you 

3 (Whereupon, at 12:28 p.m., a luncheon xecess was 

4 taken.) 

5 l **** 

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Page 113 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

Whereupon, (I:57 p.m.) 

VERNON E. JORDAN, JR. 

was mcaIIcd as a witness and, after having ban previously 

cluIy sworn by tk Forcpcmn of the Grand Jury, was cxamincd 

and testiftid further as follows: 

EXAMINATION (RfZSUMED) 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q Mr. Jordan, when WC broke, we were using the 

document in front of you which is VJ-7. 3di-38. so we’ll go 

back to it. And, as you’ll recall, we bad worked our way up 

about a third of the page down to the entry that says l/19/98 

11:17. Do you see tha& sir? 

ARiJ$L 

Q Okay. And then I think you had indicated to us 

thatinthtintcnreningtimbehveen11:17andthenthcnuct 

entry, 165 1 or 4:5 1, you had lunch with Mr. Carter. 

A That’s right. 

Q Okay. Let’s talk about the lunch with Mr. Carter. 

Where did you have lunch that day? 

A Park Hyatt Hotel. 

Q And how long would you estimate you were with bun? 

A Hour. Hour and 15 minutes. 

Q Okay. Why don’t you tell us about your 

conversation with Mr. Carter, what you guys discussed. 

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I’ve always been intcrcstcd in his practice and 

talked to him a good bit about being in a two-man office 

and what that was like. Thc independence of that as opposed 

to a huge law firm like my law lirtn. And asked him bad he 

thought about having had a great experkna in legal services 

and then gone into this phase of the law, had hc thought 

Page 114 

A I gave him the Drudge Report. And I gave him tl-~ 

Drudge Report and I said to him, “This might lx useful to 

you. This is some new information that I have, 1 got this 

fax of the Drudge Krpon, and I thought you might like to 

have it.” 

I think it was then that hc told me that he had 

prepared a motion to quash the Lewinsky subpoena in the 

Paula Jones case and that that was all done and he was 

I~Icing forward to that and I said, “Sounds good to me,” 

and that was about the extent of our conversation on the 

Lewinsky situation. 

He did express appreciation that I shared with him 

the Drudge Report. He, like me, had never lxard of the 

Drudge Report. We did discuss its credibility or lack 

thereof. I just gave him the Drudge Report. And then our 

discussion became a germal discussion between two buddies 

who had not seen each other for a long time, a little bit 

about family. He has kids much youqcr than I do, k doan’t 

have grandkids as 1 do. 

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Page 115; 

about Bi-tat he wanted to do as he contemplaxd the practta o r 

law. 

.%nd he was very interested, as he hi always beei 

interested, in my approach to the practic and I basicall: 

shared U&I him that 1 did not think at this stage in time 

that I could pracrtcr: law m a very indepenm: way, absent a 

lot of lawyers, lot of library staff, lot of paralegals. An d 

we son nf compartxi tlr difkenccs in what we 0: and how WC 

do it. 

What was clear to me is that he SCR of enjoyed 

beitq a loner and an independent and I very much respect 

that. But he also understands or appreciated what 1 do. 

We have a mutual admiration society, Frank Carter and I, am 

so we just talked about things in general. 

Q Did you speak with him at alI about working at 

Akin Gump? 

A I did not. 

Q You indicated it was a general discussion about 

what types of things he wanted to do. Did tk conversation 

involve at all discussions about working with him or him 

working with you in more than just a case refa-ral lxx and 

there, but actually some sort of official working 

relationship? 

A So. No. We did not talk about an official 

relationship, in large measure because it’s my judgment based ‘I 

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on my convc‘rstton with him that a large law fum is not of 

any intexst to him. I did not offer him a job at Akin Gump 

becau~~ I would not have done that absent a conversation witl 

my partners. wtth the management committee, with the hiring 

committee. with the opcxating committee. H’s are a fairly 

bureaucratic law fum. And so I would not just go out and 

say “I’m going to offer some lawyer a job because he’s i 

friend of mint.” 1 don’t do that. 

Q Okay. And the Drudge Report, fu-st of all, in 

betwm the time that you got the Drudge Report from Bmce 

Lindsey on Sun&y tlx 18tb and wba you bad iuncb with Frank 

Carter on Monday the 19tb, did you show your copy of the 

Drudg: Report to anyone? 

A NO. 

Q Did you discuss that Drudge Report with anyone? 

A So. 1 may have talked to my wife about it. 

v And obviously as to any of the questions, I don’t 

at all want to get into any discussions you and your wife 

would have: had. At thz lunch. in terms of tk Drudge Report, 

did you actually give him the copy you had? 

A 1 glrvc him a Xerox copy of it. Yes. 

Q And then you still had a copy yours&? 

A 1 don’t rcmcmber if J kept one for myself. I think 

I gave him the only copy I had. 

Q Had you made any markings or anything on the 

_ 

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report? 

A No. 

Page 117 

Q When you and Bruce Lmdsey had met the day before. 

did you take any notes? 

A No. 

Q Do you know if lx did? 

A No. 

Q What did you tell Mr. Carter when you gave him lhe 

Drudge Report? What did you say about it? 

A “Here it is.” 

Q Did you discuss its contents at all? 

A No. No, I may have said -- I may have said, I 

don’t know that I said it. it would be logical to have made 

some reference that I had no idea that Ms. Ixwinsky was 

having other conversations, but 1 did not -- the Drudge 

Report somehow at that point was not a big deal for me. 

Q Did you discuss in any way with Mr. Ca_rter the 

impact or effect of Monica and/or the Drudge Report on the 

President? 

A No. 

Q Did you discuss in any way the impact or effect 01 

the Drudge Report on Monica and Mr. Carrrr’s continued 

representation of her? 

A We did not. 

Q Other than informing you that hc planned to file a 

Page 118 

motion to quash on behalf of Ms. Lewinsky, did Mr. Cm 

provide you any further information about his strategy or 

plans in relation to representing Monica Lewinsky? 

A He did not. 

Q Did you ever discuss with Mr. Carter or 

Ms. Lewinsky any of the financial arrangements between 

Ms. Lew-insky and Mr. Carter for representing her? 

A I did not. 

Q From any source at all. do you know what the 

arrangement was? 

A I don’t have the slightest idea what their 

financial arrangement was or is or was. 

Q And I assume it also follows that you don’t have 

any idea of who, if anyone, paid Mr. Carter for representing 

her? 

A No. 

Q So after -- 

A 1 do hope hc got paid. 

Q After the lunch with Mr. Carter. whcrc would you 

have gone then? 

A I think 1 may have gone back by my office or I may 

have gone - I think I went to the White House. 

Q And I’m just using rough time estimates, but since 

you were at your office at, say, 11: 17, then if you had lunch 

with Mr. carta around nmn then thar would probably rake you 

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up to the, say, 1:00 or : 120 timcframc? Does that sclrnd 

roughly -- 

A About right. 

Q And so now we’re looking at -- we know you utn 

back at your office at 4:50. so thx it would have lzn 

bmKcn the lunch and 4:50 when you acre a1 the White House 

A That's right. 

Q How long were you at the white House? 

A Hour, maybe. 

Q And what part of the White House did you spend gan 

time at that day? 

A I was in the Oval Oflice. I was in Erskinc Bowles’ 

office. I went to speak to the Deputy Chief of Staff. Not 

Tony Podesta, not Podesta but -- ber name escapes me. I’m 

cmbanasxd. But she worked at the Treasury and then sk - 

Ijustean’trecallhername. ItwilleometomeandIcaa 

eettbcname,butsbe’sthe-thenarehvoDcputyChidsof 

Staffandshe’smofthcm. Itwillcometomioamimuc. 

I went and said hello to her. Teased her about the 

G~mm&ion on Race. Sylvia Mathews is ba name. I stoppa! 

in Sylvia.‘s office, they were all working on Saturday. 

I went upstairs and 1 spoke to Marie Ashcovettti. 

I waved and said hello to her. I stopped in Bnxr’s office. 

where he was in a meeting with Cheryl Mills. Said hello. 

And I may have said hello to Chuck Ruff, I just don’t 

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remember Chuck Ruff was Ihere. but I may have said he& to 

Page 12U 

Chuck Ruff. 

And on my way out, I went to check on my Fred 

Erskinc Bow& who if I rememberbythattimchadma&up 

his mind and had announced to the staff the week before that 

he was going to remain as Chief of Staff, and I stopped by to 

reinforce the rightness of his decision. And it was a good 

decision. 

And then 1 think on the way out, as you go down tbc 

stairs, the office of tbc National Security Council is that 

andIstoppedandsaidhellotowh~~wasthcrcand1~ 

out. 

Q Okay. Let me just follow up on the lunch with Mr. 

Carter. WhenyougaveMr.CarterthelxudgeRqxnt,didk 

haveanyreactioncmewayorthcotherintamsofonak 

rtaliacd what it indicated? Did he look surprised? Did k 

look concerned? 

A No. No. Frank Carter is a very coo1 guy, not 

given to - he was fine. 

Q And you indicated that during that lunch he 

informed you that he was filing a motion to quash on behalf 

ofMs.Izwinsky. DidMr.Cartersayanythingmsugges 

8nythingthattbcinformationintheDnxigeRqx+rtmi&t 

affect his motion to quash? 

A He did not 

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Page 121 

MR. WISENBERG: Let the record reflect, pardon mc 

for intermpting, that Stephen Binhak of our office has 

entered the grand jury room. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q tit’s go now - we’re back at the White House and 

we’ll just take it step by step and basically what you talked 

about With the people. I think you indicated that you 

believed your first stop would have been the Oval Oflilce. is 

that correct? 

A ?hat’S right. 

Q Now, first of all, this is on technicaIly a legal 

holiday, is that right? 

A That’s right. 

Q What, as you recall, on that day was the staffing 

situation in terms of wuc people like Betty Currie, Nancy 

Hemreich -- 

A Betty Curric WLLS not thcrc. Nancy Hcmrcich was 

there. 

Q So your recolicction is Betty wlls not there. Nancy 

WaS. 

A -i-hilt’s COIRXt 

Q Any other, at least in the Oval Office area, were 

then any other people noticeably absent that normally would 

be there on a regular working day? 

A Betty Currie w3s not there. 

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Q Right. Any others that stand out? 

A I'm trying to rcmtxnher if Rahm Emanuel was in his 

office or not. I think maybe Rahm was in his off~cr and I 

Said hello to Kahm Emanuel which is just on the other side of 

the oval Office. 

Q Other than your recalling that Betty Cunie was not 

tbzre, did it appear like a normal working day? 

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No, you had a scnsc that it was an off day. 

Okay. Now, I’m assuming you went -- 

Secret Scrvicc was th3-c. They’re always there. 

They don’t get an off day. 

They don’t get an off day. 

Who did you see in the Oval Off&? 

The Prcsidcnt. 

Who was prcscnt when you spoke to him? 

The President and myself. 

Was the door shut? 

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A Talked a little bit about the State of the Union. 

Hc lhankcd me agoin for my role wilh Erskinc. And I told him 

that Monica Lrwinsky had a job. I’m certain I told him that 

there was going to be a motion to quash filed by her lawyer. 

I told him I knew about the Drudge Repon and that J had bee 

shown the Drudge Report by Bruce Lindsey. 

We did not spend a of time talking about the Drudge 

Report, but I did tell him that I had sun it. Who is 

Drudge? I’VC never heard of him. How is Cbelsea, family 

talk. 1 mean, nothing -- it was no great moment. We 

lamented the fact that we had not been able to play very mutt 

golf, the weather had not baen the best. Very geneA, very 

informal conversation. 

On the way out -- on the way in, actually, hc was 

on the phone when 1 came in and I talked to Nancy and Nanc 

had a hunch of pictures up and I’ve always teased her that 

thcru wcrc: p~c~urcs nf many, many celebrities but not my 

picture and I kidded her that I felt rejected or whatever. 

And so wkn the President came out, she asked the President 

to take a p~cturc of us so she could right this wrong and so 

the IVesidmt took a picture of Nancy and myself. And I hop 

it’s hanging so that I’m not left off her wall. 

Q Have you been back to the Oval Office sina then’ 

A Have not. 

Q So you haven’t had a chance to check? 

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Page 124 

Q You indicated that you believe that you told the 

F’residcnt wlrn you met with him on tbc 19th the1 Moniw had a 

job. WC spoke a little bit about your informing the 

President of that before the lunch break, we talked about it. 

Do you believe that was the fust time you told him that: 

A No. I think 1 told him before that. 

Q So what in particular did you discuss with the 

President on that day about her job? 

job? 

117 A 

Just that she had a job. 

And you told him where’? 

Yes. 

And did hc ask you any questions about her job? 

No. 

AnytIling that he said at all in relation to the 

He was grateful for my involvement, thanked me, as 

The door was shut. 18 he always does. He’s very gracious about that. You get 

So it was a private meeting between you two. 19 thanked and you move on. 

The President and 1 were the only persons in the 20 Q Now, you told him that Frank Carter had indicatec 

oval Office. 

Q How long did you speak to the President? 

A I may have been thxc IS minutes. 

Q Okay. T’cll us what you and the President 

21 to you that he was going 10 file a motion to quash. 

22 A Yes. 

23 Q Prior to that time, so prior to the l!Jth had you 

24 had any discussions with the President at all about Monica 

discussed. 125 Lcwinsky’s -- the legal side of Monica Lcwimky otbu than 

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Page 125 

simply infot%ng him that you had arranged ior Frank Carter 

to represent her and that she had gotten a subpoena? 

A That’s right. I have not had an in-depth 

discussion about Monica Lewinsky @aI sl:cz:mn because 

I was not in chxge of her Icgal situation. I made 

arrangements for a lawyer and 1 told the President that. 

When she signed the affidavit. I told the 

Resident that the affidavit had been si,gned and when 

Frank Caner told me that hc had filed a motion to quash, 

as I did in the course of everything else. I said lo the 

President that I saw Frank Carter and he had informed me 

that he was filing a motion to quash. It was as a simple 

information flow. absent a substantive discussion about her 

defense. about which I wxs not involved. 

Q Did the President make any comments about the 

motion to quash or the legal strategy? 

A He did not. And he couldn’t make a comment about 

the legal strategy because we did not ha\c a conversatior 

about the legal strategy. 

Q Did he say in regard lo the discussion dealing with 

whatever Frank Carter was doing, specifically a motion to 

quash, did the President in any way indicate that he wanted 

you to keep him informed? 

A No, that wasn’t necessary. 

Q It wasn’t necessary bccausc it was just something 

1764 

Multt-Yagc .- vcmon 82. Joraan, Jr., 3-3-rb 

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Page 126 

you’d do on your own? 

A Clearly. 

Q Now. with as much specificity as you can. what 

would you have told him about the Drudge Report? 

A That I had seen the Drudge Rcpon. He obviously 

knew about the Drudge Report, it did not require any lengthy 

discussion. 

Q Well, when you say he obviously knew about the 

Drudge Repor~. how do you know hc knew ahout the Drudge 

Report? 

A He acknowledged in some way that he knew about the 

Drudge Report and I think it’s fair 10 say hc was as 

surprised at this Drudge Report that re~ortcd that there had 

been these taped conversations with this pc~n named Linda 

Tripp. 

Q What is it that you base your conclusion that he 

wassurprisedthatthereportclaimedthatthcreweretapcs 

involving Linda Tripp? What did he say or do that made you 

conclude that? 

A Well, I think we were both in a state of surprise 

about it. It was new information. 1 did no: knnw it and he 

obviously in my judgment did not know N. but he knew it at 

the time. but when he got it. he was. 1 thmk. as surprised 

FlSIWaS. 

Q Okay. But I’m trying lo get at why you think he 

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Page 127 

was surprised. Let me ask you this, are you just assuming he 

was surprised or is there something he said or did that mark 

you conclude he was just as surprised as I was that there’s 

this claim of taps? 

A Yes. I did not know, about the Drudge Repon and I 

think -- it is my understanding that the President did no1 

know about the Drudge Report. And so I make tht sam 

assumption about his surprise that I do about my own. 

Q So it’s an assumption that you make. 

A And 1 think a fairly good one. 

Q When you indicated that you were familiar with the 

Drudge Report, did you have a copy of it with you that day? 

A I did not. 

Q Do you know whcthcr hc had a copy with him? 

A f ncvcr saw a copy of the Dru@ Report in the Oval 

Office. 

Q Did he make any comment to you at all about the 

Drudge Report or the allegations or content &z&n? 

A We did not discuss the content of it It was just 

sort of an incredulous state, I think, that = both found 

ourselves in about it_ that this was going on and that this 

~sonEhowinthislzpo~ Ithinkincredlllityistheonly 

way that I can explain it. There it was. 

Q Did you either impliedly or directly ask the 

President during that meeting whether there- was any truth ip 

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Page 124 

anything -- 

A Jdidnot. 

Q Did the President -- 

A I had satisfied myself about the truth on the 19ih. 

Q Way back in -- correct. Did the President make any 

affirmative statement to you about the truth or lack the&of 

of the Drudge Report? 

A He did not. If I might volunteer this for purposes 

of explanation for the grand jury, 1 have a great friendship 

with the President, but I also respect the fact that he is 

President, and so I do not view it my role to cross-exam& 

the President of the United States. On the one &stanec tbal 

I wanted an answer to a question, I asked him directly, 1 got 

my answer, I was satisfied with that. 

Secondly, it’s been my experience with presicknts 

thatyougencrauyktthemdeterminethcamtentofttle 

conversation aftex you’ve ma& whatever xport or 

observations that you want to make. It’s not my job to carry 

it. And if you are president, there are many, many things (10 

your mind and if you arc a friend or advisor, you sort of 

listen. And that’s what I’ve done with this prcsidtnt fc 

six years now. 

Q Did hc during that meeting say anything about tk 

nature of his relationship with - 

A He didnot. J 

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Q And I was going to say with Ms. L.ewinsky. 

A With Ms. Lewinsky. 

Q He did not. 

A He did not. 

Q Did he indicate to you what, if anything, he 

planned to do as a result of the Drudge Report? 

A He did not. 

Q Is it accurate to say that other than expressing 

surprise to you he didn’t impart any information to you 

about -- 

A He did not impart any information and the only 

other substantive advisory aspect of my conversation, 1 

rexnin&d the President zain that it was my judgm4mt that thy 

Paula Jones case ought to bc sttled and I did not raise that 

out of a discussion of the Drudge Report, out of a discussion 

oftk subpoena being quashed, but I just said - he’d bad 

the testimony two days bcforc and I sort of said, “Well, you 

know what my position is on scrtlement. I think it ought to 

be settled.” 

And I told him I thought that whatever the 

szttlement f&u-c was that there were enough like mimic 

people around that if we work& at it hard enough that we 

could in fact raise the money for the settlement. 

Q Did he give you any response to that? 

A He said, “Well, I know your position.” 

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Q Anything further? 

A About it. 

Q And I think you indic;ltcd that no one else was 

present for this meeting. 

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Pgse ljl/ 

BY MR. BIENERT: I 

Q Which is an interesting point as to ti residence i 

and the WhiE House. It’s public housing. 8 

A That’s public housing. 

BY MR. U-ISENBERG: 

Q I thought you had mentioned earlier that you 

indicated 10 the President you didn’t know much about the 

I Drudge Rcpon. Did I hear you correctly to reflect that? i 

In ecmcral, not rhs particular one. but that you didn’t know 1 

much ahout this Ihlng called the Drudge Repon. Did I hear 

you right or did I mis-hear:’ 

A You heard that right. 

u To the best of you recollection, what_ if anything. 

WJS Ihc cxchallpe on tit point bctwun you and tk &i&xl? 

A The best I can recollect, be didn’t know mu& about 

it either. He m-as in a state of - this incredulous state E i 

1 was sort of about the Drudge Report, who it is and we 

obviously knew noting about it. Noting bad ever coax up in 

my conversations with Ms. Lewinsky that she hj been baviq 

convcrsalions with Linda Tripp at all and I gather from the 

ej 

newspaws that she did not know that at times she was being 

recorded. 

Q I want to try to make myself clear on this and I 

don’1 always do that. I want to make sure I understood you 

correctly. It seems to me from the answer you just gave 

A No. / 5 

Q You didn’t write anylhing down during the mating, 

correct? 

A No. 

Q And did the President? 

A No. 

Q Any other discussion other than your generalized 

stakment that you thought hc should settle about the Paula 

Jones case? 

A No. 

Q Al1 right. Anything clsc that stands out in your 

mind about that conversation with President Clinton? 

A Yes. WC had a conversation about cigars, I 

believe. 

Q Anything else? 

A No. 

BY MR. WlSENBERG: 

Q What wx? the nature of your conversation about 

cigars? 

A WL’ liks ~lwm. And WC: can’t smoke them in public 

housing. 

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Page 132 

ri&t now, you’re talkmg about this particular Dru@ Repon 

that Bruce LincFey told you about and you mentioned it to 

Frank Cxtcr. 

n Right. 

Q But did you also have 3 conversation with the 

l’nxdcnt in +xr~l about what is the Drudge Report? Who i: 

lhls guy. M3u I)N&? As a general matter. That was my -- 

A Wltcn I =w rhc Drudge l&port, 1 did not know who 

Matt Drudec: WJS. 1 just knew that there was somethiag called 

the Dru4e Report. I never heard of it. I didn’t how who 

Man Drutlp \m until I saw him on Mat the Press one Sun&y 

morning. 

Q But on the 19th, you and the President did not 

discuss in gczl the kind of publication the Drudge Report 

WZlS. 

A WC did not. 

BY MR. BIENEKT: 

Q Now, after you spoke with the President, at some 

point you spoke with Erskine Bowles that day? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you discuss at all with Erskine Bowles the 

Drudge Rcpon? 

A I did not. 

Q Did you discuss al all with Erskine Bowles Monica 

Lcwinsky? 

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I A No. I talking with him? 

2 Q Did you discuss at ail with Erskinc BOWICS the i 7 i - A Fix minutes. 

3 Paula Jones case? : . 

I - 

Q And Cheryl \vas tkrc tlK: u’bk time? 

4 A Did not. 

5 Q After you met with Erskine Bowlcs, one of t.hc 

6 people you met with was Sylvia Matthews. correct? 

7 A Yes. Just breezed in -- one of Sylvia’s 

8 responsibilities is the Commission on Race, the President’s 

9 program, dialogue on race. and 1 went in to tease her a 

0 little bit about the dialogue on race. 

1 Q And just obviously I’m going to follow the same 

2 pattern with each of these people. just so you know the 

3 things I’m interested in. I guess it would be four 

4 categories, actually: the Drudge Kcport. Monica Lewinsky, 

5 Paula Jones ease, and on Monica Lewinsky it’s sort of two 

6 categories, the job aspect and bcr lcgai situation or 

7 involvemen t with the l+esidmt. So do you have all those in 

8 mind? 

9 A sure. 

0 Q Okay. Did you discuss any of those topics with 

I Sylvia Matthews? 

2 A I did not. 

3 Q Did you discuss any of those topics with -- I think 

4 you said Marie? 

5 A That was just hello, how are you. 

Page 134 

4 A That’s right. 

5 Q Okay. So what did you all talk about? 

6 A Just passing the time of day. “I stopped by to see 

7 the President, he seems fine. What are you all doing working 

8 here today?” I was not them on substantive business, I’m 

9 just sort of breezing through there. 

IO Q So nothing of a substantive nature with Bruce 

I I Lindsey or Cheryl Mills about the Drudge Repoe Monica 

12 Lewinsky or the Paula Jones case. 

13 A Yes. And, mind you, I just had lunch with Bruce 

14 the day before. Not much to talk about. 

I5 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Ifi Q Nothing subntantivc other than thank you for giving 

17 the Drudge Report and 1 gave it to Frank Carter. 

I8 A But that. 

19 Q And Ms. Mills would have been them and heard that. 

10 A Yes. 

!I Q Did she say anything to you? 

12 A Well, hello, Jordan. how arc you, blah, blah blah. 

!3 Q Now, I think you indicated, and I may have 

!d misheard, but that you might have said something to Bruce 

25 along the lines of “What are you doing here today?” Was it 

Page 131 

1 Q Did you discuss -- 

2 A You don’t call, you don’t write, you don’t send 

3 chocolates. There’s a word for it, but I won’t use it in the 

4 presence of the grand jury. 

5 Q Okay, I won’t ask that enc. Did you discuss witI 

6 Bruce Lindsey and Cheryl Mills any of those topics I refened 

7 to? 

8 A I think I did say “Thank you for giving mc that 

9 budge Report, Bruce. Never heard of this.” Something to 

0 that effect. But that was no big discussion about it. I 

1 thanked him. I’m sure I told him that I had given it to 

2 Frank Caner. Kidded him about his oflice. which I always 

3 do. 

4 Q In what way? 

5 A Well. it always looks as if a storm had just left 

6 it. It was true when he was running personnel, it’s true 

7 now. And so I always kid him about that. 

8 Q tit me just stop you. When you actually met, then, 

9 with Bruce Lindsey, was that actually a sit-down meeting, you 

0 went in his offtce or somebody’s office and you all sat and 

I talked? 

2 A He’s behind his desk, Cheryl Mills is sitting in a 

3 chair, everybody’s in informal dress. I’m not sure I even 

4 sat down. 

5 Q HOW long would you estimate that you were in there 

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1 your understanding that he usually wouldn’t be working there 

2 on a holiday? 

3 A Almost whenever the President is around, Btuee i: 

4 around. And so I’m just kidding him about working on Martia 

5 Luther King’s holiday. 

6 Q It didn’t strike you as unusual, though, that he 

7 wasthcre. 

8 A It was not at all unusual. 

9 Q Now, Chuck Ruff. Would you have discussed - 

0 A I think Chuck was in the office. but I’m not sure. 

I And if Chuck was in the office, it was “Hello, chuck, how a~ 

2 you?” Shook his hand and left. I did not sit down and have 

3 a substantive conversation with Chuck Ruff. 

4 Q And you indicated Erskine Bowles twia and I’m not 

5 sure if that means you saw him twice on that day or not, but 

6 if you saw him again, did you discuss any of those topics 

7 withhim? 

8 A We didnot. 

9 Q How long would you say you met with Erskine Bowles 

o that day? 

1 A Five -- five, ten minutes. Actually, my discussio2 witllErskinewastoreassum hint that his father, who ran fo. 

3 governor once in North Carolina, was very pleased as hc 1 

4 ~domrfromimmonalirysndacrnitythsthcbadmadcr 

5 decision to stay. 

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yT.-._ 

A& I said, "You made the right decision." And I 

assured him that Crandall thought he made the right decision 

and that his kids thought he made the right decision. And I 

had leaned on him pretty hard and so I was making sure he was 

really very comfortable. And one way to do that was to 

remind him of his father whom he admired very much and who 

had a total commitment to public service. He just lost the 

governorship. 

Q I assume that over the years you had been to the 

West Wing of the White House at varying times when the 

atmosphere was different in the sense that I assume there 

were times when you were there when it was very light and 

easygoing, perhaps because there was nothing pressing that 

day or some really good news had happened, like the 

re-election, is that right? 

A Well, we were in Little Rock on re-election day. 

Q I guess the point I'm trying to get at, have you 

been at the West Wing enough times to where you could sense 

on different times that the overall office mood was different 

on different occasions? 

A The mood of the 

public events. And I had 

White House is not unrelated to 

been there on a Saturday morning 

right after the American soldiers had been blown up in some 

Middle East country, it was a very cold day, and we had lost 

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Saturday. And the way we dealt with the tension was to take 

the President and play golf at Andrews Air Force Base. 

I have been there on a Saturday when Haiti was 

tense, but I've also been there when it was a birthday party 

for the President and it was a different mood. The White 

House is not unlike my house or your house. When there's a 

crisis, there is one mood. When there is joy, there's 

another mood. When things are calm, there's another mood. 

The White House is no different from any other house in that 

regard, except it's the White House. 

Q How would you describe the mood when you were there 

on Dr. King's day, the 19th? 

A Calm. I did not feel or sense any particular 

intensity. People who were working there were trying to 

catch up. Phones were not ringing. Secretaries were not 

buzzing around. It was a good day to get things done. 

Q And then you indicated, I think, the last person 

you thought you might have stopped by was at National 

Security? 

A Yes. And I'm not sure about that and that was a 

wave in, to say "Is Sandy here? Is Jim here?" Out of there. 

Q There would have been no substantive conversations. 

A No. 

Q Okay. Anybody else that you can think of that you 

would have spoken to while you were at the White House that 

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Emanuel. 

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No. 

Now, back to the -- 

1 mentioned stopping in to say hello to Rahm 

Any substantive conversation with him? 

No. 

Now, back to the phone record, about a third of the 

which is where the time 1651 or 4:51 is? Do you 

sir? 

Mm-hmm. 

And that's your office phone again. 

Right. 

so -- 

I'm back in my office. 

And you called Betty Currie at home, is that right? 

Right. Yes. 

Why did you call Betty Currie at home? 

I'm not sure. 

Did it have anything to do with the Drudge Report? 

I may have called Betty Currie at home just to 

inquire about _, and to just 

check her general feeling, attitude, as a result of the death 

of her brother. 

Q Would you have discussed with Betty Currie at all 

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the Drudge Report? 

A No. 

Q Would you have discussed with Betty Currie Monica 

Lewinsky? 

A No. 

Q Same question as to the Paula Jones matter. 

A Of course not. 

Q Do you even know as of that call whether Betty 

Currie was aware of the Drudge Report and/or the allegations 

contained therein that Monica Lewinsky and the President had 

a relationship? 

A I do not know. 

Q How many times prior to that had you called Betty 

Currie at home? 

A The death of her sister, death of her brother. I 

may have called her at home from the Dominican Republic once 

when the President thought that I had his putter. And in 

fact I did have his putter, but it wasn't my fault, it was 

his fault. And I may have called her about that. Or I could 

have called to ask some question that I needed answered and 

it was after hours. So I don't -- I have her home number but 

you can always get a White House staff person by calling 

through the switchboard. You call the switchboard and say, 

"I'd like to talk to Betty Currie at home." This was clearly 

a direct call. 

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Page 141 Page 14 

1 Q Do you know on Ibe other oamions win you would 1 A He was cool. 

2 have caBed ha at home would you typically call her directly 2 Q He was in essence imparting information. 

3 or would you do it through the White House switchboard? 3 A Exactly. 

4 A Dcpmdsuponwha’cIwas. IfI’matmyhouscandI 

5 don’thavehrhomcn~~atmyho~.Icallthroughtbt 

6 White House operator. 

7 Q Now.itlookslikcyouwereonthephoncwithBetty 

8 for approxima&ly -itaaysaminutcaud42suxmdsandtbat 

9 itappearsbasulonthctimingtbatasaoonasyougotoff 

IO thcphoncwith&qCtmicyoucaUalFmukCartcr. Isthat 

I1 right? 

12 A That’s right. 

13 Q WhydidyoucallFrankCarter? 

14 A ~thi&~WaSiThUllhghiS~. 

IS Q And tlrn if we notice literally a minute later 

I6 tkrcisanothcrcalltoFrankCarterimdyouguysspokefur 

I7 four minutes. 

I8 A Yes. hdthatiSWkJI-dOj’OUWmttOkmWabout 

19 that conversation? 

LO Q yes, sir. 

L1 A IhatiswhenFtankCartcrinf~mthatkhad 

12 hada011fromMr.Ginsb~andthatbehadbecnrelicvcdof 

!3 his rqxesentation of Monica L&n&y. 

!4 Q What, if anything, did Frank tell you other than 

!5 the fact of his being informed of being relieved? 

Page 142 

1 A ThathegotacallfromamannamedMr.William 1 Q Anything else about that calI that you redkt? 

2 GinsburgfromLosAngclcsandtbatMr.Chsb~infonncdhim 2 A Well, I told him I was sorry it had happened. 

3 thatkwarMonica~ky’sfathr’shwyaandthatkbad 3 I said this is the second time. It had happened with 

4 bemretaiNdiItthepremisS and that Mr. Carter’s services 4 Maggie Williams. And I said, “I’ve got a poor batting 

5 wtzeno1ongerneededand1aslccdhimifkhadgottentha.t 5 average,” or something like that. 

6 contirmedandfiesaidhetookhimathisword. 6 Q Now, that call was from 1654 for four minutes, SC 

7 He also told me that a local Washington lawyer, 7 it looks like it takes you right up to 1658. And at that 

8 NathanielSpeights,hadalsobgnhiredsothatGinsbtugin 8 time, you tkn called Bruce Lindsey; is that right? 

9 fact bad local counsel and that he, Frank Carter, was no 9 A Right 

.0 longer representing Lewin&y. 10 Q WhywereyoucaUingBruceLi.ndsey? 

,l Q Priortothistime,hadyoueverheardofGinsburg? 11 A TotcllhimwhatI’dkard 

2 A Never. 12 Q Heard from Frank Carter? 

3 Q Prior to this time, did you know Nathaniel 13 A Exactly. 

4 Speights? 14 Q And dn you think you left a message, or did 

5 A I did not. 15 youknow? 

6 Q Did Mr. Carter give you any specifics of anything 16 A I don’t know. It was 42 seconds - 18 seconds. 

7 fuhertbatGinsburgwouldkvetoldMr.Ger&outhhxdca 17 Q Yeah, actually, let’s keep track. All right. So 

8 Lmimky? For example, did Mr. Carter indicate to you that 18 letm-bccauseIdtm’twantconfuseyou,bacausetbueare 

9 kwasinfarmaitbath4onicaL&nskybadbanapproackdby 19 so many numbers here. 

!O either federal agents or prosecutors or lawyers? 20 I guess We’re looking at the call at 1658 for 

!I A No. 21 twelve seconds to Bruce Lindsey. 

12 Q WCS you aware Of that? 22 A Yeah. 

3 A IWaSnOtaWarcOfthat. 

14 Q Did Mr. Carter appear upset about being relieved, 

15 happy about being relieved or neither one? 

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Q So if you left a message, it would have 

been quick. 

A IthillkSO. 

Q Al right And then it looks Iike immediately 

thereafter, you would have caBed - 

A Oh, I may not have left a message because I 

probably got some answering service. 

QRi&t.ThatA I hate tht answering services - inchiding my own 

Q Andthentheveiynextanswer, 42 seconds. just a 

gene& White House Counsel’s Off&? 

Yeah, I was trying to fmd Cheryl Mills. 

Okay. And thtn - 

BY MR. WIEENBERG: 

Did you? Do you know if you did, or not? 

I don’t think so. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

And then immediately after that, another eaU to 

Bruce Lindsey; is that right? 

A Without success. 

Q AndthenanothzrealI,itlooksIike,toano~ 

number at the White House Counsel’s Office? 

A Right_ I’m not having much success kre. 

Q Okay. And then as we pan down, we’re at 

1705: Bruce Lindsey, no success. 

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Page 145 

Andthenwegettorightafterthat,a 

2-minute-and-12-d call to the white House operator. 

A Ytah, I think they’n - they’re looking for 

pcuplc, you know. lbcy put you on hold and they say, “Do 

youwantmetobeeptkm? DoyouwantmctosaifIGm 

fiad them at home?” or what have you. And I think that’s 

what that was. 

Q Okay. So is it accurate that in this series of 

short caUs, you’re trying to get ahold of somebody at the 

White House Counsel’s Office to inform them of tht 

information you just got from Frank Carter? 

A Ihat’sri@finmuchtbeSamcWayIinfomCdbotb 

BenyandthePresidtntthatIhadcormselforha,aadI’m 

now saying he is no longer counsel. 

Q Okay. Now, if we look at the call that 

says 1709 -which,1guess,is5:09intheafmnoon 

It’s a minute-and-six-second call to White House 

CounseI’s Offlce? 

ARight. 

Q - right? 

A Right. 

Q Doyoulmowwhatyouwciuldbavetalludsboutor 

titllwhomthere? 

A WeII,Iwastryingtofmdsornebody,andIwas 

uyingtofmdmm&odymsaywbntk+idguneoa. AndIdm’t 

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know whether that’s a - whether I’m on hold or wlietbc~ I'm 

actually taking to somebody. I don’t - I don’t know. 

Q Okay. So that., roughly, would take us up to 

about 1710. And then there’s a IittIc gap, and then at 

1714-r~r5:14intbeaftemoon,youbavcaacight-minute 

with Frank Carter; is that right? 

A Right 

Q Now, since there’s a little gap them between say, 

5:10and5:14,doyoubclicveit islilcclythatsomeoncfrom 

tk Wltitt House actually got back to you and you spoke with 

them for a few minutes? 

A Xdon’tknowthtanswertothat. 

Q Okay. Whatwouldyouhavediseussedfor 

eigbtminntcswitbFmnkCartcri.nthatsuamdcalltbatday? 

A Just, I’m sure, expressing my surprise, asking 

aboutwboGinsbutgwaswbatwcnton. Justsortofgoiog 

ovcrwhatIhad~dtohimaboutfourmirmtesfour minutes before. 

Q Why would you need to do that? 

A WeII, because I was - I’m stunned by this, right. 

Q WeII,Ietmebaekup,soifIcanunderstandwby 

youweremmnal Hetoldyoutbatkbadbanielicvai 

ARight 

Q Butwastlrzresomefur&rinformationA Notfurtkrinfoxmation. Yougetaguyalawyu1 

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Page 14f 

you get a person a lawyer, then aU of a sudden, there’s a 

change - there’s new counsel. And so you call him back and 

you&wit. Imean,“shmned”mayktoostrongaword, 

but we just sort of reviewed the bidding. 

Q Now, up until this point, did you have any 

information or any lmdcrstandillg that Ms. Lewinskymight 

bavebameontactcdbylawenf oKzmaltorpcoplefromthc 

independent wunsel’s office? 

A No. 

Q Can you teII us any mom? And X’II make an 

observation. And I think you indicated on Tuesday, and 

today,you’rcamanoffcwwords-atlcasfwbEnyoun&d 

aotsaym~-andI~~we’vehadvay_yousaythings 

succinctIy and directly. 

And as an observation, it just stands out that 

thisis8neight-m.inutecaII. Isthereanythingmoreyou 

cMtlluswhatya¶lwouldluvEspcdRtoMr.cher&olxtfpr 

eight mimlm? 

A No, 1 can’t. It’s also a Saturday af&moon. I 

got a IittIe time, he’s got a IittIe time. 

Q It’s a Monday. 

A Mondayafternoon. IeannotteIIyouwhythcca 

Iastedeightminutes,andIeannotteIIyouewxythmgwe 

taBmdabtnrt. IwiII@IyouthatI’meertainthatwn I 

revisited ti Ginsburg-Speights change of unmsel. I 

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Page 148 

Q Mr. Jordan, I just to want to clarify. You don’t 

recall if in that previous call - in that six-second call to 

the ~uns~l’s office -- whether or not you actually spoke 

to anybody? 

A IdoubtifIspoketoanybodyfor6or 18seconds. 

Q No, no - the one that’s 1:06. Right before the 

eight-minute - 

A Y&_ IdOll’t-IdOn’t-IdOl’l’tkIlOW. 

MR WISENBERG: okay. 

BY MILBIENERTz 

Q ~youthinkthatthe~~-oWieOftht 

~youcalktMr.Carterbackwouldhavekuibecauae 

sc+mcoSurbcWhiDc~wouldkvesuggcstitktywgct 

more information? 

A No. 

Q Was it your intent - 

A AndI’mnotaurethatIhaveactuahytalkedto 

anybodyattbeWhiteHouseduringthistime. Icannotassure 

you of that. 

Q InthissecondcallwithMr.Carter,didMr.Carter 

give you any ftuiher information about the situation thar 

whathehadgivenyouinthecahearIierthatday? 

A ItWaS - I don’t know of any furtkr information 

thathehad. HedidtrytocallMonicaLewinsky. Ido 

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rememberthat. Andbecalledthesan.znumbertharIhad 

called And as a result of that call, I believe he kard 

from Mr. Ginsburg. 

Q SOiSitaUX?ite,thcn,thatO~OfthtthingSyOU 

alldiscussedisthefactthatbothofyouhadtriedtoga 

ahold of Ms. Lwinsky. but with no success that day? 

A I don’t know that I shared with him that I had 

triedtogetintouchwithkr. Imean,Idon’t-Idon’t 

know that, and I don’t - 

Q All right_ But you do recaIl him telling you that? 

A l’hathehadtriedtocall. 

MR. WTSENBERC? Can I get a chuification? 

MILBIENERT Sure. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Would this have ken, to your knowledge, the first 

timeMr.Carterkardfrcnnh4r.Ginsburgkcausekhadtried 

to get ahold of Monica Lewir&y, or are you saying that 

after he learned from Ginsburg that he was relieved of 

representation, he tried to tried to call Monica and got 

another caIl? 

A Yeah I don’tknowthe sequence. 

Q Okay. Not so much the sequence, but did you 

MdastandhimtosaythathcgotasccoadcallfrmnGinsburO 

after trying to reach Monica? 

Inotkrwords,htgetsafirscahfiomGinsburg 

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saying, “You’re relieved” - 

A No, no, no, no. I only know about one call 

from Ginsburg. 

MIL WISENBERG: okay. That’s all I wanted Lo hxw. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q In the cab - this eight-minute call with 

Frank Carter, did you or k discuss in any way any vts o! 

iheDrudgeReport? 

A No. 

Q Did you or k discuss in any way anything &ted 

towhabatbatwasarelationshipbementhcPresicktand 

Ms. kwinsb? 

A No. 

Q Did you or k have any discussion about wktk or 

notthesu&knshiftbyMs. Lewinskytoncwcounselmight 

have anything to do with either the Drudge Repon or the 

publication of its allegations? 

A I think it was fairly clear to us that this 

&eisionhadnotkbammadebyMs.Lcwinsky;tbattk 

&eisionhadbeenma&byMs.kwinsiq’sfatkr;andtbata 

hwyalmdcom6fKKllLosAn@zksroWashi@o&rrprcscndng 

her father, to represent kr. 

Q And~wasitthatindicatedtoyouthatit~ 

tk fatkr who had gotten this lawyer involved? 

A lbre was nobody to tell me that but Frank Garter 

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Q Okay. So Frank Carter told you that? 

A YCS. 

Q IknowI&edyoucmTuesdaywhenyoufirstkard 

ofMs.LcwmskywhctberyouAcnewanyofherfamily. Let’s 

bring it up to this point: Up until the l!Jth of January, had 

you ever met or spoken with Ms. Lewinsky’s fatkr? 

A No. 

Q With h4.s. kwinsky’s mother, who I believe goes by 

tk name of Marcia Lewis? 

A I’ve never SpOkCIl Ms. LeWinsky’s mother. 

Q Never met her, either? 

A Never. 

Q And other than years ago, how about Peter Straus? 

A PeterStrauscalledme,Ithi&fromthe 

F%rkHyaaHotel,wbaekwasstaying. ItbiukkcaUcd 

mthedayofmy aWement,andIthinkthatwasThurrday. 

Andhtcalledmethatevening,andIsaid,’Teter 

how, are you?” He said, “I am - I am here at tk Park 

Hya&” And I said, “Where’s your girlfriend?” meaning 

MonicaLmiasLy’smotbcr. AndPeserSmussaidtnmet& 

“She is on suicide watch with her daughter.” 

Q Okay. 

A Andhesaidtomethathc-hadnotthiscomeup, 

kwouldkarbiswayto-downtheweddingaisleaith 

Ms.kwinsky’smothcr. AndIhavenotsacnortalkder 

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heard from Pcter since. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Anything else in the conversation, other than what 

you’ve just related? 

A No. He said, “I thought you were great on 

t&vision.” 

BY MFL BIENERT: 

Q So the conversation would ha* been after your 

press statement, and not bcforc, because hc had already 

seen you. 

A He had not seen me. He saw rnc on television. 

Q That’s what I meant to say. 

A Yeah Right. YtXih. 

Q And just for the record, I believe your press 

statement was on the 22nd of January? 

A It was that Thursday. 

Q Okay. I didn’t bring my calendar today, but - 

Were you concemcd at all at this point about tbesc 

issucsthathadcomeupandthcirramificationstosnyooc? 

A No. 

Q Now, set aside yourself for a second But - 

MR WYSENBERG: By this point - I’m sorry to keep 

interrupting. When you say by this pains you’re meming the 

time of the eight-minute cmwrsation with Frank Cattcx? 

BY MR. BIENER’T: 

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Q Correct_ SoIknowwccovcredupuntilthetime 

yousawtkDrudgeRcport. AndIguessthcfactsthathavc 

nowbcenaddaiis: YougctacallfromFrzmk&tcrthat 

he’sb&nrelicndascolmstlandaacwla~crrmeinto 

represent Mr. Lewinsky. 

A tight. 

Q Did those additional facts cause you any concern 

about the - what we’ll call the Monica Lewinsky issue? 

A No, not any concern. It’s right now just in the 

state of confusion, not concern. 

Q And when I say “any concern,” I also mean for thr 

Resident himself and what - 

A XsaidIwasinastatcofconfusion. 

MR. BIENERT: m right. 

BY MR WTSENBERG: 

Q How do you mean? 

A Confusion, period. 

BY h5R. BIENERT: 

Q Now, immediately after this call, it appears - 

it’s an eight-minute call at 1714 - 

ARight. 

Q - which brings us up to 1722. 

A I’m still trying to find Bruce Lindsey, obviously. 

Q Andthtnitlooksliketky’reveryshor& Soat 

kast, based cm your calls, it doesn’t look Iike you 

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succeeded; is that right? 

A Right. 

Page 154 

Q And then at 1755 - so a short time later - you 

put in a quick call to Betty Currie; is that right? 

A hh-hmm. hh-hmm. 

Q And then a few minutes later, at 1804 - or 694 - 

you ha% a thrncminute with Betty Cunie; is that right? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. Why would you be calling Betty Curie? 

A IcaIledBettyCunictoteIlhcrwhattklatcst 

newswasinthiscase,andthatisthatFrankCarterbad 

beea reIieved of representation, and that she was now 

being rcpmsentcd by a lawyer from Los Angeles named 

WiUiamGinsburgandalawyafromWa&ingumnamal 

Nathaniel Spcights. 

Q Did Ms. Currie indicate that - first of all, what 

did she say to you when you told her this? 

A Itwasncwstohcr. 

Q DidshcappcarA Asitwastome. 

Q Okay. Did she appearconccrned? 

A No. 

Q Did she make any comment at all, other - 

A SheacceptsQ - than, “What a surprise”? 

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A Yeah,acsoptedtknews. 

Q NowvwfryA 1 guess confusion would be the right description. 

Q And why did you think it appropriate to call 

Ms. Currie and alert her? 

A I did not think it was inappropziatc to call 

Ms. Currie. 

Q Well, I guess it’s why would you call her, on the 

list of people to call? 

A To telI her what had happened. 

Q But why Betty Cuxrie? 

A WbynotBatyCurrie? SkbadcallaimcmdaskaJ 

metogctMonicaIswin&yajob. IgotMonicstLcwiPdcya 

job. I got Monica lzwimky a law. Sk gas a new lawyta 

soIcalledBettyCunietotellkr,period. 

Q SO&it accumte,thcn,thatitwassimplyfort& 

rcasontbatbccauscsbewasoli@lalentrrttoMs.Lewinsky, 

you had been kuping hur updated on significant mts 

related to Ms. Ixwinsky? 

A Ithoughtshehadaxighttoknow. 

Q Soisthatanacoumte assessment? 

A Ithoughtthatshthadarighttoknowwhat 

information I had just found out about 

Q Wknyou~otoffoftbcphcmcwitbhir. cartcr,did I 

youandkbaveanyunderstandingastowhatyouwoulddo 1 

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1 beyond that? Like, were you going to keep each other 1 about tIx Lcwinsky matter; is that correct? 

2 informed? Was lz going to do something? Wert YOU 2 A I told her -- wlxn we hired counsel, I told lxx 

3 going to do something? 3 that, and I told btr when Ms. hvinsky signed the affidavit. 

4 A No. 4 Q Right, but her trip to your office about I&off, I 

5 Q Similarly, with m. CUiC - when you concluded 5 think you testified was on the 15th or the 16th. 

6 your conva-sasion with her, did either one of you a@~ to 6 A Yeah. Right. 

7 keeptheotheroneinformedordoanything? 7 Q And I think you testified that on the morning of 

8 A No. 8 tbt19th,orearlicronthc1~whcnyoutalktdto~for 

9 Q And then I guess, about 20 minutes later or 9 - I said he morning; I’m oot cornet here. It would have 

o lSminuteslater- 1826-there’scallhereto 10 btcn 4:51 in the aftanocm. But you think it could have very 

1 StephenGoodin. 11 well been about the condition of some of her relatives. 

2 A Yes. I’m ret-Ding his call. 12 A Yeah Just checking in. 

3 Q Okay. Firstofall- 13 Q Right So then later that day is your update 

4 A ste@n &din is at that point kaving his job at 14 caLI with her on Monica Lewinsky, apparently 6:04 -- 

5 ~~~House,andbcistryiqtobeintouchwithmand 15 ~8~militqtime. 

6 hadbeen-Ihadmycall&ettlxre,andtryingtobein 16 A Right 

7 tou&withmetodiscusswithmehisnext- 17 Q And so my question to you is: Between her 

a Q What he would do next? 18 perxmal visit to you about the Isikoff phone d on the 

9 A Rim 19 15thor 16thandthisphonecallontbc l%b,doyounxall 

10 Q Sodidyou,infacfspeakwithMr.Goodia 20 citkrmatiDgpersodyortalkingtokrovcrthephooc 

11 that night? 21 about the Monica Jxwinsky - 

2 A I didnot 22 A I donot 

13 Q NOW, 0th~ than what’s here on this page, do you 23 MR. WISENBERG: Okay. That’s aII I have for now 

14 haveanyrecolhzticmofspeakingtoanyoncon~l9th- 24 FOREPERSON: Okay. Then we’re going to take a 

1s soDr.King’sobsuvanaday-aboutthcDmd@?Report, 25 lo-minute break. And be back as close as possible to five 

Page 157 Page 15s 

1 Monica tin&y, or the Paula Jones case? lafter- a little more than 10 minutes. 

2 A No. 2 (A break was taken from 251 pm until 4:00 pm.) 

3 MR. WISENBERG: May I ask - are we about at 3 l ** 

4 breaktime? 4 FOREPERSON: Mr. Jordan, you’re still under oath 

5 FOREPERSON: How long -- 5 THEWITNESS: Thankyouverymuch. 

6 MR. WISENBERG: Oh, I just had one or two, but I 6 BY MR. BIENERT: 

7 was just curious. 7 Q Mr. Jordan, I was asking you about certaio people 

8 FOREPERSON: We’ll do your one or two, and then 8 and wkther you’d spoken to them. 

9 immediately after, we’ll take a break. 9 Have you tver spoken to Mr. Ginsburg or 

0 MR. WISENBERG: Okay. One, two, three - 10 Mr. Speights at all? 

1 EOREPERSON: I’m trusting you, Sol. 11 A No. 

2 BY MR. WTSENBERG: 12 Q And by that, I mean through today. 

3 Q Didanyoncanthat&y,Mr.Jordan,the19th-did 13 A Ever. 

4 anyoncataronbtbalfoftbtWhitcHoustatanytimontbat 14 Q Okay. Aad you’ve never comrmmicated with tkm in 

5 clay,the19th,asLyoutottyandeontactMcmicaLewi&y? 15 writing or otherwise? 

6 A No. 16 A New. 

7 Q S~questiOnaStO~(hTie. 17 Q How about Billy Martin in relation to anyt&ing 

8 A No. 18 related to the Monica Lewinsky matter? 

9 Q IfIunderstandyoueoxrect.ly,bctweenthetimeof 19 A who? 

0 Beq Cuxrie’s visit to you, what she spoke to you about the 20 Q Billy Martin. 

1 Isikoff phone call - 21 A I don’t know who Billy Martin is. 

2 A h&l-hmm. 22 Q Okay. Walter Kaye? 

3 Q - and your telephone call to her that we just 23 A who? 

4 discussedatberhometoupdateberontheIminskymatter 24 Q Waherhye. 

5 -therewerenoamversation$phacorinpuson+withher 25 A No. 

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1 Q Allright. Baektothc l!?th--andIjustwant 

2 to make sure I covered this. The eight-minute call with 

3 Mr.~-didyouandhe,inthatsecondcallthatday, 

4 discuss in any way anything relating to the natunz of the 

5 relationship between the President and Ms. Lewinsky? 

6 A No. 

7 Q Okay. I believe now we’= up to - we’ve finish 

a withthcca~~ontbz19th. Andamtinuingouthcshatto 

9 the2oth. 

IO Ifyoulookatthefirstentryonthe2OWt 

I 1 shows at lo:41 in the moming, a 3-minutcand-48-sxond cal 

12 w&Robert- Doyouseethat? 

13 A Right 

14 Q Now, Robert &zmctt is I’xsidcnt Clinton’s attomcy 

15 in the Paula Jones case, eorrcct? 

16 A Right 

I7 Q Okay. why do you speak to Robert Bcnnctt? 

I8 A IwaS xctuming his call. And the reason I know 

19 tbatisthatthis~wasmadefrommysecntary’sdtsk,and 

!o I think I was probably out of town. 

!J I do not know why Bennett was caIIing me, excepl 

0 possiblytoslythatbcwantedtosamtwhenIgotbackto 

!3 town - which he did on the 22nd, I believe. 

!4 Q Now, the 20th is the day, I think you told us 

!s earlier-thatwouldbethedayyouwcreinNewYorkwhen 

MUILr-v . blIl”IJ AA. ,“1uaAI* ,a., 1--I-70 

I 

1 Page 16: 

J day before But it’s on my calendar, I think. You ha\r 

2 my calendar. 

3 Q Yeah. And I vaguely remember something in th 

4 time frame, so I guess we’ll get to that 

5 Other than that meeting, which we’ll addnzss in a 

6 fewminutes-infact,justsoyou’~know,I-infact_ 

i 7 toumfumwhatyousaidamomcntago,Ihaveanotiaofa 

8 messageon - and wz c.aII this VJ-a 3-5-98. 

9 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. VJ-8 was 

1 0 marked for identification.) 

1 1 1 And does that appear a message indicating that - 

1 2 A That’s rij& 

1 3 Q Sodoesthat,infact,eonfmnthathedideall 

1 4 youonJanuaryZOth,andthcnyouwouldhavr:banrcclrrning 

1 5 hiscallwhen1 6 A Ihat’s right. 

1 7 Q Reflected here. Okay. 

1 8 Now, it was a 3-minute-and-48-aaxmd call. So can 

1’ 9 youthinkofanythingelacthatyoumightbavedisCus&witll 

a 0 him,otbuthaxlmaking uranganentstomadwithJlimwJnlym 

12 J got back? 

2. 2 A It iS - it is not inconceivable that we discussed 

2 3 -tomcttlatwemaybavediscussed’IbeclrudgcRcport. But 

2, 4 I don’t -- I don’t -- I don’t havt any recollection of what 

2. 5 - what that was about. 

Page 16. 

1 Q C-anyouthinkofanyrcasonwhyyouwouldhavebca 

2 discussiogthcDmdgcRcportwithMr.Eknm~,otkrthm 

3 fact that it existed - the repoti? 

4 A IcannotthinkofanyIcasontodiscussifother 

5 than the fact that it existed. 

r t 6 Q Has Mr. Bennett ever asked you information or 

7 questions about the facts related to your involvement with 

1 B Ms. Lcwinsky, helping get her a job? 

a 3 A Wbcnhccamctos&mcinmyoff~aandmtwithmc 

J( 3 and my lawyer. 

1. I Q Sothatwouldbcataroundtktimcofthe 

1: 2 Statement you gave? 

1: 3 A ThatiSC0w 

14 IQ Okay. So,asleast,asofthe2OthI! 5 A No. 

J( 5 Q He hadnot? 

1: 1 A No. 

II 1 Q Now,onthesameday,ifwelookatthenexteall, 

1s 8 youwouldhavespokentaFmnkCartari@aroundnam 

2( ) for 2 minutes and 48 seconds. 

21 I A Forty-eight seconds. 

2; I Q Okay. What did you discuss with Frank Carter‘. 

r 

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Page 161 

J the reporter called you that night? 

2 A That’s CoIxct 

3 Q Okay. Otherthanpotentiallymaking arrangencnts 

4 tomadwithh%r.BcnndtwlxayougotbacktoWashingtcm,did 

5 you speak with Mr. Bennett at all about fmy of the topics of 

6 the Drudge Repot-t, Monica Lewinsky, the Paula Jones case. 01 

7 any of those matters? 

8 A I did not. I did not talk to him about -- in a 

9 substantive way about - the only conversation I’ve had with 

o Robert Ekxnett about the Paula Jones ease was about 

1 stttluncnt. And I don’t know that this was a convcrsatiou 

2 about settlement I rather doubt it. 

3 Q Have you had any discussions at any time with 

4 Robert Bennett about Monica Lewinsky? 

5 A I have not_ 

6 Q Have you had any - 

7 A WeJl,waitaminute. Hecamtomyoff~cetomct 

8 withmylawycrandI,Ithinkbcf~Imadcthtstatcmcnt. 

9 Beforcmyprssumvcrsation,hccamcback-hccameto 

10 my office to see my lawyer and myself. 

ll Q Okay. 

2 A And- 

:3 Q And by that, you think it’s the same day of the 

!4 press conferenec? 

5 A It’s not the Same day. I think maybe it’s the 

I A I-I-Idonotknow. Itis-itisthtnext 

I day,anditislikclyjusta sulmWGgofcvlents,I~ 

i rhink,ofwhathadhappenai,whatkhadfarmd~hadk 

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mIkcdtoMonicaLcwhky.hadhchad~ymorcconvasations. 

any notion about why he’d been fund I mean, it’s just 

review, I would think. 

Q Now, as of this time, did you have any 

informatiohindicatingtoyouthatMcmicaDrwimkyhadbeu 

contacted by fedcra agentr, prosecuton, arid/or anyone from 

the Office of lndqXndent counsel? 

A Ob,Ireadthatinthenewspaper. 

Q So the firs time you would have heard about that 

waswhmyoureaditinthenewspaper? 

A That’s right The first time I heard about tht 

i&pcndentcounseltakingkrtoPentagonCity.IthinkI 

readthatinthenewspaper. 

Q DoyouIrnow,duringthistimfmmeofthel9thrmd 

tbe2ot4andevalextmdingint%say*tbe2lst,22nd~ 

aodtkrewratalotofconversaticuswiththWhiteHouse- 

= you awale of any informaticQ indicating that, not you, 

but any others affiliated with tht President -- be tlq 

Iavqersoradvisors -weremakinganyauemptstogetin 

touchwithMs.Lewmslqandlorhercurrentlawye%tich 

would be Mr. Ginsburg and Mr. Speights? 

A 1 don’t know anything about that_ 

Q Did Mr. Cartez - and by ~KIW I’m going up through 

the zoth, your umvccsations with him_ so any UmVersati~ 

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Did he ever express any concern to you about 

the fact that he had helped Ms. Lewimky file an affidavit 

in relation to the Paula Jones case, and now there were 

allegations that Ms. Lewinsky had a relationship with 

the President? 

A He did not 

Q Now, if we look at - continuing on the 20th of 

January - 

A h’h-hmm. 

Q -tb3FZarCOae,tWO,thl?XCdl.StOthe 

White House social off~ce. Do you know what those might 

have been about? 

A My wife, Mrs. Jordan, is a volunteer in the 

White House social offk And so * I want to find k, 

I call her at the White House social office. 

Q Okay. So you likely were talking to your wife at 

that point? 

A Iwaseithertryingtofmdhuonthe6~second 

call,ascettai&gwheresbewasononeoftbem-onthr 

1:36 call - and I probably talked to her on the 2:24 call. 

Q And I’m assuming these would have been husband 

and wife personal calls not related to the Drudge Report 

Monica Lewinsky, et cetera? 

A That’s bedroom ti& 

Q That’s why I don’t want to - I don’t want to get 

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into it. I just want to make sure I can exclude tit Is 

that accurate - my assumption? 

A Right 

Q All right. Now, we get up to the next day, which 

isthe21st. Andifyou’llnoticethefirstentrythere,at 

1448 - do you = that sir? 

A YCS. 

Q At 2~48 in tht afternoon, you spoke with the 

White Hous Cwmel’s Office for 5 minutes and 12 swmh. 

Do you how, w&o would you have spokeu with tberc’ 

A In all likelihood, I would have spoken with 

Cheryl Mills. 

Q And what would you have spoken with Ms. Mills 

about? 

A we& probably, what’s going on, what’s happening. 

Q Okay. Why don’t you tell us specifically what - 

A Yeah, just a general idea about, “What’s going on’ 

wbat&youku&? whatdoyoularowrbouttkDrW&RqxXt? 

What do you know about anything?” 

Q sOinOtkWOrdS,~ngtiget~yfuIth 

information that Ms. Mills might have about the 

Monica LWinsky issue? 

A Justtbe&mmstanassurmtmdingthePauIaJoacs 

case, the Drudge Reporf the change in counsel. I’m jus 

trying to get information. 

1 

2 

Page 16; 

MR. WISENBERG: Can I butt in for a minute? 

MR. BlJ3ER-E hh'khmm. 

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Page 168 

I BY MR. WISENBERG: 

2 Q Just to set a time frame ako for the witness. 

3 The morning of the 2lst - Wednesday, the 21st - 

4 would have b&n The Wash@ton Post - the fim article in 

5 Tk Washington Post about the tin&y manCr and mahoning 

6 that it was in Mr. Starr’s jurisdiction. So just to set the 

7 framework for what you might have been ta.Iking about 

8 A Yeah. IthinkI’minNcwYorkattbctimcprobably 

9- no, I’m in my office at - on the Zlst? I doubt that I’m 

0 in my office. 

,I BY MR. BLENERT: 

2 Q It’s your office number. Ahhough it’s at 2:48 in 

3 tht afternoon, so it’s - 

4 A Andtho21stis- 

,5 MR. WISENBERG: That’s a Wednesday. 

6 BY MR. BIENERT: 

7 Q That’s a Wednesday. 

8 A So I’m back. 

9 Q Andlet’sbackupasecond 

!O A Yeah 

!I Q BccaustnowHn:havckindofworktdorPuptowhac 

!2 we had started, which is - 

13 ARight. 

!4 Q --thenightofthc2Othwasthenightyouwcrein 

!5 New York, and this reporter called YOU and WO~C YOU up - 

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Q -1aJil. 

AFLight. 

Page 169 

Q And you went back to sleep. 

ARight. 

Q Whenyougotupinthemorningofthe21stin 

New York, prior to the time that you left New York, did you 

have any discussions with anyone about this Monica Lmvinsky 

issue? 

A I had a breakfast with Howard Gittis, who is the 

vice chaizmaa of McAndm~ & Forks, which owns R&on. I 

hadbreakfastwithhim,justthctwoofus. 

Q Were you scheduled to have breakfast with him? 

A I was scheduled to have breakfast with him. 

Q And roughly, how long had that been schxIuled? 

A 1 don’t know. 

Q Days? 

A Probably. 

Q What did you and Mr. Gittis discuss at 

that breakfast? 

A Well, we discussed what business I was doing for 

- for Revlon, some business that my lawyers uerc doing for 

Revlon. Iwasgettingffledinonadealthatwasintk 

prouS of being Bti. That deal ha!3 subsqlWly 

been consummated. I was taking to my ckot 

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Q About business-related matters. 

A About business-related matters. 

Q DidyouspeakwithMrGittisontk21stataU 

about Monica Lewinsky? 

A I just sort of apologized for whatexr difficuhy I 

mighthave-timightbavepxesaltaifortI.Ecumpany. An 

besaid,VhataxeyouraIkingabout?” Hedida’tknow-k 

didn’tknowsaythingabcutit Ibadnevcr&aItwitbhimoc 

the Monica Iewinsky issue. 

Q Okay. Well, let me break that down because - 

fimofaII,atthctimethatyoumetwithMr.Gittison 

tbcmorningoftbe21stinNewYork,werr:youbythattim 

aware of tht press that appamntiy came out that day, no 

only alleging the relationship between the President and 

Ms.hwinsky,butalso~thatitwasbcinglookcd 

intobythcOffiaofthcl&pen&nt&nmsel? 

A WeIl,Iknewthatby&nand-Imean,itwasup 

tome,bccauseIhadma&thecaIl,tovolunteerthat,”I 

don’tkncnvwbxthisisgoing.And~‘vetKlmbavbeforc, 

as we wc~t in tht Webb Hubbell situation.” I just said, 

“Listen. Breaks.” 

Q Okay. So you knew both - and that’s what I 

want to be clear. It sounds like, if I understand it 

r-i& up until the 20th you lmew about the allegation it 

tbcDrudgcRqm,butyoubsdnoknowledgctkmtMs.L4nsky 

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Page 131 

had km approached by law uhramen tortkofIiiccof 

Inckpendent counsel. 

A Yeah, I had no way of knowing that 

Q Andwhatsotheaddedfactontk21st,ifI 

understand correctly, is: By that morning, you knew - 

A By that morning, I was on the Today show, saying, 

“I’m going back to sleep.” 

Q On the Today show? 

A Yeah, on the Today show, that morning. 

Q Ohwhy-beeauseofA Blcomhadcallcdmthenigbtbefore,okay. SoI’m 

oetbcTodayshow,andIseemyseIfquotaI,say&”I’m 

going back to sleep.” 

Q But in the conversation with Bloom, based on 

what you told us earlier, it sounds like he didn’t inform 

youthatMs.IzwinskyhadbcenapproahdbyOffiaof 

Independent counsel. 

A 1 did not know about the indcpcndart counsel. What 

Iknewwasthatthisstorywas-hacltakcnonalifeofits 

own,fight. 

1aIsoknewthatIhadaskcdRichardHaIpcrin,ar~ 

Ib3dtZ4kl%ltotkChkXl&aboutgettingMOQi~~_ 

ajob. Ialsohadstnsca~ughtoknowthatatsomcpoinf 

that would come out. 

And so I’m sitting and I’m taIking with the vice 

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Page 172 Pa& 17. 

&&man of tk campany. I think I’m a responsible citiza~ 

and a responsible lawyer, and so I said, “Listen, I don’t 

know what’s coming tbc pike, and I’m sorry. We’ve ken 

here before,” period. 

onthemomingof the 2l.C 

BY MR. BlENER’f: 

Q when you say you’ve been here before, that was a 

reference to Webb Hubbell - 

A A reference to Webb Hubbell. 

Q - who you lAped get a job at Revlon. 

A That’s Tight 

Q Okay. And the thing that I’m trying to figure out 

~th:ocwfaft-I’meyingtotiedownwbcoyouwould 

have learned about it. 

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Q Right. And then the question is: Because you’re 

not in Washin&m - you’re in New York - would you know 

anything about The Washington Post article? 

A You can’t find Tht Washington Post at 6:30 in th 

morning in New York_ 

Q Okay. So presumably - 

A Ipromiscyouthat. 

A When I would have learned about what? 

Q TbcfacttbarMonicahwinskyhadbaencontactalby 

agcnts,CKliiWCSlf- t,c?rOfTiiofIhpeIuhtchmsel? 

A Ilearned-Ileamedthatmuchthtsamewaythat 

everybody else learned that 

Q From the press? 

A From the press. 

Q And my question to you is: When? Did you know 

about that aspect of things - namely, Offlct of hdcpahht 

Counsel meeting with Ms. hwinsky - prior to your breakfast 

with Mr. Halperin? 

Q That’s why I’m asking. I don’t know these things 

A You can’t fmd The Washington Post. 

Q Soasyousitbercnow.bascdooourrcprezsentation 

to you that the first press statement that Ms. Lewinsky - 

thcmattcrwaskinglookcdintobythcOffi~ofIndcpcnden1 

Counsel-wasinThcW&ingtonPostintbcmomingofthe 

219 I’m infexring frum what you say that you don’t bclicve 

YwwouldbaveLnownthatfactatbreakfastinNewYakon 

thiXtsamt&y. 

A rhatiscomxt. 

A Ifitwasinthepress,Iknewaboutit. Ifyou 

-1cannottellyoucxactlywbcnitwasinTbeNcwYork 

Q Then Wtwn you told Ms. Gittis about th rising 

situation with Ms. Lcwhsky, what if - 

A Potentially rising situation, based on what had 

happened and base on what had happened before. 

Q Okay. Well, why don’t we do this, so I’m not 

putting words in your mouth - 

Page 173 

TiiTheWallStre.ctJoumal,orTkWashgtonPostwhich I read evexy morning. 

ButassuchtimethatIreaditinoneofthose 

newspapas,Ithenkxwit. whcthrIknewitonthemoming 

thatIhadtheb~~withVictChairmanHowardGinis,I 

cannot tell you that. But we can do the clippings and find 

outwbcnitfirstappcarcdintkncwspapcrs,andthenIc.an 

confinn - 

MR. WISENBERG: Let me - let me interrupt just - 

MR. BIENERT: We& what M_r. Wiscnberg is telling 

us, it came out in The Washington Post on the 21st. 

MR. WISENBEXG: Ye&. I think you mentioned, if 

I’m not mistaken -just to clarify t.h rccor& I think you 

made refenzr~ce, Mr. Bimezt, to breakfast with Mr. Halperin. 

MR. BIENJZRT’z Yes. 

MR. WISENBERG: It was breakfast with Mr. G&is. 

MR. BIENERT: I apob~&~. 

THE WIDJESS: Breakfast with Mr. Gittis. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Yeah. hdagain,justfortherecord,asI 

understand, what you’re telling us, that’s tht morning 

afterthecallf’romBloom. 

A ThatiSWm 

MR. WISENBERG: Okay. And that’s the 21st. And 

justasaframeofref~‘IbcWashgtonPostarticlewas 

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Q - please tell us what you told Mr. Gittis. 

A Isaidto-IsaidtoHowardthattherewasthis 

Lzwhskyproblem. BccauscIhadcalledRichard,andIhad 

Perelman, she had been offered a job with the company; 

here’s a Drudge Report alleging a relationship bchvum she 

and the Resident; and I think that the fact that I helped 

kr get a job here and I also beAped Webb HubbeU get a job 

he, that it’s going to create some problems for tht 

company. And I said, “I’m sorry about it. Breaks.” 

Q Did Mr. Gittis appear to know who Monica hvinsky 

was? 

A He did not tiw anything about it. 

Q About her or it? 

A Ortlxjob. 

Q What, if anything, ask did Mr. Gittis say to you? 

A He sort of said, ‘That’s the way it goes.” He’s a 

verysawyguy. Hcwasnotup~clidaotstormoutofthe 

room. We sat and had a nice breakfast, talked about our 

business. I left, went back to my hotel, to Washhgum. 

Q Other than what you told us, did you and 

Mr. Gittis have any furtbu discuss of Monica LewinsQ, 

theDrudgeRcport,oritse.f’fectontbeRevlonduringyour 

breakfast meeting t@at morning? 

A We did not, because at that point, we did not know 

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what effect it would ha*. 

Q Now,tbenyouwsntbacktoWashingtonontbeZlst? 

A Yes. 

Q ~disit~~~~t~,~f~~ 

wasinIZU:Wa!>onPostont&2lsttbattbc0fEcrof 

Indcpcndatt colmsl was looking into tl%! Monica L&Sky 

matter, that it is at some point that day that you would 

have learned about that? 

A Y~youcangetTbeWashingtonPostattheDelta 

shuttle at 8:30 or 9 o’clock in the morning. 

Q Okay. Now, when you learned that there was 

anassnionthatMs.~hadb&ncontztedbytbe 

office of In-tit cwnsel wert you lmmrncd at all 

about the entire episode? 

A (Shrugging.) Concerned? What do you mean by 

“,@“? 

Q Well, k$t’s separate it out the way we‘ve 

done before. 

A Yeah 

Q First of a& let’s talk about personfly. Were 

youc4mazmcdatallforyou&fabouttbtfactthatsstbc 

timcwentouwittMs.Lwinsky,nowancwfactartmzdthe 

picture in addition to the others - namely, that she had 

been in contact with ti Office of Independent Counsel 

about what, at least the press is rcposting was an 

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alleged retationship with thy Pnzsident? 

A I was not mnamed. 

Q About your&f? 

A No. 

Q Were you conmrned at that point about the effect 

of the situation on anyone else - such as the President? 

A I was as not cOIIcemed, no. 

Q Okay. Did you have any emotion or feerings - 

first of all, as to your& - onot you learned this fact? 

A Yeah, that - it was a political emotion. 

Q Which was what? 

A And that political emotion was that the 

indcpcndcnt counsel was extending his jurisdiction in ya 

another place wbzre I tbougbt the in&Jpendent counsel had no 

business extending his jurisdiction. 

Q Okay. Any furtherthoughts, other than your 

~cwsimwbcthertbcin&pendentcounselsbouldasbould 

not be involved? 

A That’s about it. 

Q Did you have any thoughts of a political nature on 

the PR ramifications of this accusation on the R&dent? 

A No. Ihadanotbcrreacti~andthatreaction 

was: What is this country coming to? 

Q Okay. Well, let’s use this as a frame of 

referen=. Based on what we’ve discussed before, you 

Page 178 

I had spoken with President Clinton in the Oval Offia on 

2tkl9th3 A Right. 

4 Q - about the Drudge Report - 

5 A tight 

6 Q - and Monica Lewinsky. 

7 ARight. 

8 Q Had you had any other conversations or 

9 ccmxmmication with the Resident - either directly or 

o indinztly-betweenthel%handthc21stabout1 A I told you before tht break that ftr: President 

2 a&xi me early the mom@ of tbc 20th. Watncsday morning. 

3 hc called me up. 

4 Q Okay. ~dr’df~~ that Okay. Now, when 

5 uTRyouwhcntkPEsidentcallalyouonthemomingof 

6 tfic20th? 

7 A IwasintbcsmaebcdiwaswbcnDavidBloomw& 

8 M up. 

9 BY MR. WJSENBERG: 

0 Q Sothatwouldbe-ifitwasaftermid.night,that 

1 wouldbcthcZlst,lbelieve. 

2 A It was Wednesday morning. 

3 MR WISENBERG: okify. 

4 BY MR. BIEN!SRTz 

5 Q And by “morn@,” you mean daylight outsick 

Pa& 17: 

morning or wee hours of the morning? 

A It was early hours. It was 6:30, maybe earlier. 

Q Were you still skeping when the F’resident called? 

A No. 

Q Okay. Wbat clidtbePrcsidcntsaytoyou? And by 

the way, since we’re taUcing about Wednesday, I believe 

that’s now the 21% is that right? 

ARigfrt 

Q Okay. So when the President called you on 

W&esday,tbc21st,wbat,ifaoytb&didbesaytoyou? 

A He said, you know, ‘%cxe’s a story out. I’m 

conccrnaiaboutit. AndthcagrisaboutMonicaLcwinsky 

and myself.” And he said, “It’s not true.’ And he just m 

of emoted about this cimmstma. 

~dI~ld~~~B1~~~~~~ 

za4awakenaimcand-witbthiscall,andItoldhimIwas 

goingbacktoslcep. AndIsortofsaidtohimI&ougfrt 

~~ssi~ti~~go~~~~~~ 

IaskcdhimifhchadspokentathcF.i.iLady 

aboutit Hesaidhehadnot,thatshcwasstillaslecp, 

hutthathewouldspcakwithbcrwhcnshcwas-whenshe 

wokcup. AadIsaid,“Takeiteasy,“youknow,“we’llg& 

through it.” 

Q Wereyoucxpectinga~fromhixtthatmorning? 

Didyouleavea~ f~~or~~~~~~? 

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A I didnot. 

Q When you say you hc indicated there’s this story 

out, what exactly did hc tell you the story was? 

A The story out that Monica Lewinsky had taped a 

conversation - tlx whole I&off story was out - and 

thatshthadsaidsomtofthtsethingstothisladyatthc 

Defense Department about tkir relationship. 

Then-andIsaidIthoughtthat-4l,notto 

worry about it. Tell tht First Lady. Deal with it later i 

tk morning. 

Q Did - 

A I told him I was on my way back to Washington. 

Q AndwercyouscbedulcdtogobacktoW~at 

that time, or did you go back earlier because of this? 

A Iwasschddcdtocamback. 

Q Now, did th President, in his statenxnt to you 

about the story, did hc - either in relation to tk stoxy, 

orinamoregeneralway -makeanyreferencetoyour 

&ortunate involvcmen~ in terms of trying to get 

Monica Izwins@ a job or helping her get a lawyer? 

A I don’t think we talked about that. 

Q Didhemakeanystatement-eitkrdirectlyor 

sug@ively-alongtklinesofthatkwassozryhatyou 

were somehow being dragged into this or involved in it: 

A We& ht said, “I’m sorry this guy woke you up in 

Page 18: 

tk middle of the moming.” But given tk nature of ou1 

relationship, there was no need for an apology, and I didn’t 

expect one, and - I mean, there was no need for that. 

Q Diditstrikyouasoddorunusualthatthc 

Rc.si&nt would call you that early to tell you about this? 

A TkPresidentandIhavebeenfiendsforavery 

hgtimc. HcknowsthatI’mupcarlyintkmoming;k 

knows that I’m up late at night. 

And we have talked - all during tk transition, 

3 tkksttimct0g!ctmewascarlyintkmofning. lkkst 

1 timcogehimwascarlyinthcmarning. -~ourbeads 

2 were clearer early in tht morning. 

3 We both are nighthawks, and so we’re up late at 

I night_ webothopaattonaboutfourtofivehoursslccp. 

5 And so ht knows that I’m up early in tk morning 

6 andhc-andhthasalwaysfeltfreetocall. That’sbcex 

7 trueforavexylcmgtime. 

B Q so is you -, th, that it did not strike you 

9 asumsuaI? 

D A SoitwasnotunusualthatIgotacallfromthc 

I Fksident of tlx United States early in the morning. 

2 Q Okay. Now, given the subject matter of 

5 the conversation, or the topic, do you believe he was 

I callingyoubecauscyouhadbccnbroughtintodeaLngswith 

5 Monicahwinsky,ordoyouthinkkwascallingyoubccaus 

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he just calls you about issues in general, whether you’n e 

involved in them or not? 

A we& 1 think that hz was calling abOUt an 

issuc,butkwas&ingalsooutofsomcon~for~y 

involvement and some conam for himself. I nxxn, I - 

enlightened self-intcrcst is a natural instinct 

Q And did he appear concerned in tk call? 

A Yes. 

Q You told us he indicated to you that he had not 

spoken to tk First Lady about this report. 

A The First Lady was asleep. 

Q Did hc indicate to you that k had spoken to 

anyone else? 

A He didnot. 

Q DoycnaknowoncwayortkotkrwheWyouuux 

tkfrrstpcrsonkcalledinrclationtowktklearntdin 

k newspaper? 

A Idonot. I’mnottkonlyonethatgetsearly 

morning calls. 

Q Did you - at that time, during that 

conversation - ask him anything in any way seeking 

information from him as to whether the allegations wer 

true or false? 

A Ididnot. 

e 

Q Did he volunteer to you any statements 

Page18 3 

1 indicating one way or the other whetkr tk allegations 

2 of a relationship with Monica Lx&sky arc true or false? 

3 A He did not. 

4 Q So that I don’t botkr you with this question 

5 again, is it accurate that other than your conversation - 

6 MR. WSNBERG: Hold on a minute. 

7 (Brief interruption to proceed&s.) 

8 h4R. WISENBERG: okay. 

9 BY h4R. BEbERT: 

Q And for the record, Pat O’Brien of the indepcndcx 

counsel’s offla has entexed the room. 

Isitaccurate,sir,tbatohrthantk 

convcrsationyoutoldusaboutbackwknyou&edhimtk 

questiononthcl9thofDecember,didyouever-eithcl 

directly or through suggestion - ask the President again 

A I askd the question ona, and once was enough 

for me. 

Q Andthatwastktimconikl9th,comxt? 

A Thatiscorrect 

Q Andisitaccuratcthatotherthantkheontk 

1!J&thattbeI%esidentnevcrmadeanyothcrstatemento 

you about the nature of his relationship with Ms. I&w&y? 

A ThatissuewassettledonDecember19th,asfaraz 

Iwasconcemed. 

Q Soistheanswertomyquestionthatit’saaxrate; 

_^_ 

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1 that’s tlx only time the President volunteered information to 

2 you about - 

3 A It’s the only time that I can r==mber, yes. 

4 BY MR. WI!SENBERG: 

5 Q But let me stop for a second here, because I 

6 thou&tIheardyousaythatontbcmorniqwhenbc~ed 

7 you, he said that tht story in Tht Post wasn’t true. Did 

8 beartbatcomxt.ly-thisWednesdaymomingphcmec&? 

9 A Y~thestoryinThePostwasaboutalot 

0 of things. 

1 Q Right_ Ijustwantedtoclarifyit 

2 A He-hemadeageneralcharacttrizationthatthe 

3 story in nle Post was not true. 

4 hR WESENBERG: Okay. 

5 BY MR. BENERT: 

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Q Didheindicatewhataspectofthatstoryhewas 

rtfelrirlg to? 

A He didnot. 

Q And at this point, you hadn’t even read the 

story, corlect? 

A Youean’tgetTbtW&ingtonPosteariyinmoming 

in New York City. 

Q So my point is, you didn’t know what aspect - 

A That’s vexy early in the morning. And they only 

putinfrontofyarrdoorattbcStRqgisl[hth’cwYorkTimes 

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1 Q - as long as I can preclude that there’s no - 

2 A Shehasno3 Q - rca~on why she’s in the loop. 

4 A No. 

5 Q Okay. Do you know what time it was that you would 

6 havcgottmbacktoWash&tononthc2lst? Andjustby 

I 7 referma, you have a phone call at 2:48, 

8 A Iwasbackbeforethcn. Imusthavebeenonthc 

9 9:30 or lo:30 shuttle. 

1 0 Q Now, at 2:48 is wko you called White House 

1 1 Counsel’s Offra. And is that the call that you told us 

1 2 about that you assume was with Cheryl Mills? 

1 3 A (Examiningdocum&) 

1 4 Q Idon’tknowifyousacthat 

1. 5 A Which-which-down11 6 Q Ifyoulookdowqsir-andactuallyit’sonthc 

1’ 7 pagcinfnmtofyou. ~fintpage,tbcvcrylastcnuy11 B A Yeah. 

l! 9 Q - thcrc’s a 5minute-and-l2-second call to White 

21 D House Counsel’s - 

2 1 A bh,thdSthCCd,~think,Where~‘mtryin%to 

z z find out what’s going on. 

2: 3 Q Okay. 

24 I A Ijustgotbacktotown,I’mtryingtoget 

21 I settled. What’s happening? It’s not an unusual call 

, Page 18, 

I for me. 

a 1 Q And what information did Ms. Mills provide you 

about what was going on? 

4 A Idonot-Idonotrecallwithanyspccifxity 

, thatIlcamtdanythingthatIhadnotalnadypickedupvia 

c the ncwspapcrs. 

7 Q Asyousitherenow,yaudoa’tbtlicvtsbt~~yrm 

E any new information? 

9 A No. 

II 3 Q Now, at this point_ you are obviously trying to get 

1. 1 information. Are you involved up until this point in aq 

1: 2 stratsgic discussions with anyone at the White Housq in 

1: 3 tcrmsofwbat,ifanytbing,sbouldbcdoacabouttbcmatt& 

14 I A No. 

: l! I Q HaveyoueverbeenIt 5 A No. 

1; 1 Q Letmeftihtlxsentena. Haveyoueverb&n 

11 8 invo~vcd, ftom that point to today, in any strategic 

3 1s P decisionsabout-atleast,intermsoftkWhiteHouse2( 1 d&ussionswithW’biteHcuscpasoimcl,Wbi~Housc~ 

21 i thC PESi<, OT tk PRSidCM’S ptrsonal counsel about Bly 

2; ! strat@c&cisiousaboutwhatshouldbedoncasaresultof 

23 

24 

25 

Page 185 

and The Wall Street Journal. 

Q And in New York, I would tbinlc it would bc anathema 

to put another paper. 

A If you’re from Wa&in@m, it would lx wonderful to 

havcthcMR.BENERT: Iagree. Agxu. 

MR. WEEHBERG: rll just state for the record you 

also can’t get the San Antonio Express News. 

AJUROR: No? 

BY MR. BENERT: 

Q Okay. Now, other than tbc discussion with 

tin FVcsidatt, and other tban your’brcaldivzt meeting with 

Mr.Gittisonthtmomingofthc2lsSdidyouspcakwith 

anyone-pIiortocoIn&backtowasbmgumoutbc21staboutMooicaLcwin&yoranytb.ingrclatcdtobcrortbcisstx 

involving her? 

A Mrs. Jordan. 

Q Okay. Obviously, you have a private matter. She 

doesn’t have any official capacity, where she’s communieatiq 

with anyone at tire White Hwsc about the matter, does she? 

A Her official - her official capacity is, 

tha&fuUy, that of my wife. 

Q And you understand why I asked, because I don’t 

wantto~youaboutyouandYorP~e’s~~oILS_ 

A -hankyou. 

I thisissue? 

I A Ihavenotbeeninvolvedinanystrategic 

i decisions. 

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Q Now, let’s set, we go back to 4:01 - 1601 - 

onthe2l~then5isacalltoNancyHernreich. Doyou 

see that? 

A It’s at the top Of - which page are you on? 

Q I believe it’s the top of tht second page. 

ARight. 

Q A minute and 54 seconds? 

A 0ntht21st 

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now another 36-second later on the 21s~ 

Am I coti in infening from what you s3y that 

basically, those arc the tks you’re leaving messges and 

hc never called you back on any of them? 

A ThatiScorna. 

Q Now,wouldthathaveactuallybeenacallto 

the President? 

A ItmayhavebeenacalltothtPresident,butI 

don’t think I spoke to thz Rsidcnt 

Q Okay, Whodoyoubclieveyouwouldbave~to 

that day? 

A IthinkIspoketoNancyHemreich,whotoldm 

thatI-thatthcRcsidaltwasnotavailablc,orwhtcver. 

I do not believe I spoke with the President on the 21st 

Q Okay. Chherthanthecmewhhecalledintht 

morning in New York, right? 

A That’s right 

Q Because it’s the same day. It’s much later tht 

samedayQ 0tkrtbanyourzssurr+tbatMr.Carter-andby 

tht way, just to carry it through, to make it complete, if 

you look down about halfway down tk page, there’s anoLkr 

call at 11:27 - 

A Right. 

Q - on the 22nd, 24 seconds, to Frank carta. It 

looks like you left anoth message, right? 

A Right 

Q Andhcdidn’tretumthatcalleither. 

A That’s Cona%. 

A Right. ThelasttimeItalkedtohim. 

Q Yeah. Would you have had any informational or 

substantive conversation with Ms. Hemreich? 

Q Okay. otbatbanaEsumingthat?&.csrtcrwasnot 

calling you back, did k or anyone affiitively indicate to 

you that hc didn’t want to speak to you? 

A IthinkmycounselcIrckeditout,andmycounse~ 

thought that it was inadvisable.’ 

Q Inadvisablt to speak with him? 

A That’s right. 

Q Okay. And did your counsel also indicate to you 

that that was Mr. Carter’s position? 

A That’s tight. 

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Q Doyouhaveaayidcaiftbatwasanybodye~tbat 

you might have spoken to in tbat call, when you caUed for 

the President? 

A 1 d0 not 

Q Nowwe’reonthe21st. Thtnextcz&,ashort 

36-secundtoFrankCarter. DidyoucaIIandleaveMr.&ta 

a message? 

A Yeah_ That is about the time that it was clear 

that Frank Carter felt like he could not talk to me. 

Q Okay. Explain that to us. 

A It was Ck!~that,givtntheC~CumStanCeS Ofmy 

involvement - what people thought to be my involvement - i 

was clear that Frank Carter was not taking my calls. 

Q Andwbenyousay”clcar”totbat,wbat-youwac 

leaving - because he wasn’t calling you back? 

A That’s right 

Q AndI’mjustkindof&mmingbacktokindofgc%a 

frameofreference. AndIgucssasIpanfonvard,youhad 

tkeight-minutecallwitibim-thesecondcaU,whicbwas 

eight minutes, on the 19th. 

A Right. 

Q You had an almost tlmminutc call with him on 

the2Oth. lhnitlookslike-Iseeseveralsho~caIls. 

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Q All right. Have you had any communication with 

Frank Carter since the time of these messages? 

A I have not. I saw him on television yesterday. 

Q And have you had any communication with his 

attorney-wbicbknow,atlea!stforpurpose5oftkk&ng 

yesterday, was Professor ogkbcc, and I don’t know if k’s 

badotkrettonrcys. Butbeveyoulmdanycommrmicatioowitb 

Mr. carter through any attorneys that you believe were 

re!prescnting him? 

A No. 

Q And to your knowledge, has your attorney - 

Mr. Hundley - had any communicaticm with eithn Mr. carta 

or any attorneys representing him? 

A I’m confident tbat my lawyer has bad wnversaticms 

with h4r. Carter’s lawyer. 

Q And has your lawyer conveyed to you any 

information about those amversations, o&r than tht 

fact of the conversations? 

A The fact Of the ConvuSationS, yes 

Q And wkn you say your lawyer, you’re &erring to 

Mr. Hundley, coti? 

A Mr.Hundley. 

Q Has I& Hundley tvf~ told you anything that 

occurred during the cunversations - anything said, amyth@ 

concluded, in tems of his conversations with Mr. Cam 

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1 and/or Mr. Car&s attorneys? 

2 A I think what Mr. Hundley and I talk about - 

3 Q Andbythcway--ye&yeah_ 

4 A - is Mr. Hundley’s and my business. 

5 Q That’s fine. We will stay away from that.. I bavc 

6 to admit - I’m malizing it as I’m saying it. 

7 A It’s called attorney-client privilege. 

8 Q We’ll stay away from your attomey-client privilege 

9 with Mr. Hundley. 

0 A ThankyOU 

1 Q SothatbroughtusuptoFrankCarter. Ithinkwe 

2 hadeomethroughthe21st. Now,itappears-ifwelook 

3 attht22nd-thenartthtetshartcallstoWhiteHousc 

4 counsel’s Officx, correct? 

5 A Yeah. I’m not haying much success. 

6 Q So that’s, again, you’re trying to get ahold of 

7 sCznamethue;isthatright? 

8 ARight.R&ht. 

9 Q Now, tht 22nd is the day that you made the public 

.o statemcn& correct? 

:1 ARight. 

:2 Q And you ma& that fairly late in tbe day? 

:3 A That’s right 

:4 Q When did you fvst discuss or entertain whether to 

:S make a statement about the matter? 

1 A 

2 Q 

3 A 

4 Q 

5 A 

6 Q 

Page 193 

I made that decision about 11 o’clock. 

On that same day? 

fi* 

Okay. And in consultation with who? 

My lawyer. 

Okay. Did you discuss with anyone other than 

7 your anomey whctber or not you should or shouldn’t make 

8 astatement? 

9 A No, I did not 

D Q ~temSOfth2StateIIXDt-whoWaSitWhO 

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drafted them? Did you do it all yourself! Did you do it 

with input from others? 

A Ididit. 

Q Now, you indicated that you spoke with Mr. Bennett 

atsometime-iambackup,~I’mnotsurtyoudid 

indicate it. I’ll only ask it 

Did you speak with Mr. Bemxtt, counsel for 

Resident Clintan, at any tim between your return from 

New York on the 21st and your public statement in the 

afternoon of tbc 22nd? 

A Yeah. Hecametomyofficetomeetwitbmeand 

my counsel. 

Q Andyoumetwithhimonthcdayofthestaumcu~ 

or the day before? 

A I think maybe it was the day before. 

Page 194 

1 Q Okay. AndwhatdidyoudiscusswithMr.Bennm? 

2 A I think that’s privileged. 

3 Q Okay. I don’t believe it is, but let me ask a few 

4 background questions. 

5 A My lawyer was present. 

6 Q Do you know what a joint defense agreement is? 

7 A Yes. 

a Q Do you have a joint defense agreement with 

9 President Clinton and/or Mr. Bennett? 

0 A No. 

1 Q Okay. Do you have a joint &fense agrumcnt 

2 withanyone? 

3 A No. 

4 Q I’ll leave this topic for now and give you a cbana 

5 togospeaktoyourattorney. 

6 But I would advise you that our view of the law is 

7 that anything that you say with your aaomey is obviously 

8 privilq@,butthatwhenanyuneelscisprescnt-suchas 

9 Mr.Bennett-thatthefactthatthatthirdpartyistlxe 

10 meansit’snot+ivileged,andwecanaskyouaboutit 

II ButIwcm’taskyouaboutitnow,andwc’lljust 

:2 takcaquickbrcak,audyoucaucon&withMr.Hundlcy 

13 about bow you want to address it. Is tbat fair? 

14 A Fine. Good. That’s frac. 

:5 MR. BIENERT: LA’s get through the Und - is ti 

Page 19. 

I fair, Madame Foreperson - and then we’ll address that. 

2 FOREPERSON: hfm-hmm. 

3 BY MR. BIENERT: 

4 Q Okay. Now, does it sound about right that your 

5 press statement would have ban xxxwhue around 3 o’doeb 

6 inthe7 A 3:30. 

8 Q 3:30. 

9 ARight. 

‘3 Q Sothatwouldbemilitarytime1530;isthat@xt~ 

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A @hiding.) 

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mwllswe’llco~aomeOftbCcallsup5tiltbelastoac~ 

1450 - which is 250, anrect? 

A Okay. 

Q Alltight ~youhadthcshort~on,~ 

messages, or what have you, with White House Counsel. 

ARight 

Q And that brings us up to 9:05 in the morning. 

Tha& a minutwmd-24-samd call to Whik House counsd’s 

Office. Do you see that? 

ACorrect 

Q WhowouldhavespokenA Wait a minute. A-minute-and-24-seumd - 

Q And it says “White Counsel’s Office”? 

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1 A Yeah. I - I - if I spoke with anybody, it would 

2 havt ken Cheryl h4ills. That’s at what - 9 o’clock in 

3 themOlning? 

4 Q Yes, sir. 

5 A Yeah, it would have been Cheryl Mills. 

6 Q And what would you have - 

7 A I’m just trying to fmd out what’s going on. 

8 Q What doyoumean bythat? 

9 A Just what’s happening, and I don’t - I don’t get 

,o muchinaminuteand24second 

,l Q Okay. And wfvn you say just trying to find out 

,2 ~‘sgoingon,whatwouldbcthe~~of~you’rr 

.3 tryingtofmdout? I as!rumcthatyou’rtbyingtofrodout 

4 any new factual information about allegations and - 

5 Q Well,howpeopkaretaki.ngit,whatthtmaction 

6 isattheWhiteHouse,howisthestaffbearingup. It’s 

7 sortofwhatyouwanttoknowwhen&re’sacrisis. 

8 Q Okay. Next, there’s another - there’s a 

9 I-minute-and-48-second call at 9:07 to the White House 

!o operator. Do you see that? 

!l A Yeah 

!2 Q Now, who would you have spoken with then? 

!3 A Oh, probably ti operator. 

!4 Q Okay. Do you know who you would have been trying 

!5 tocall? 

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A I-I-Idonotknow. 

Q OtIzrthantryingtogetaholdofthePresidentwhichItbinkyoutoldusunTuc&ay,youoftenjustcaUtk 

operator-istIlaeanyanothcrspcciflcpersonorpcrsons 

at the White House that you usually go through the opaator 

to get ahold of? 

A If you call a direct number and you get 

the voice mail or they’re not available, you can 

short-circuit it and go through the White House operator! 

whowillfmdthzm. 

Q Okay. It’s like a paging type thing? 

A Yeah. 

Q And there’s a couple of short either messages or 

very brief calL That’s White House counsel, Frank Carter 

-whoyouindicatedithadjustbcenamessageandbedid 

not call you back, right? 

A fight 

Q Same with - two more with White House 

counsel’s Office. 

ARight 

Q Andthenat 134O,tlxzrearethreecalls,likemore 

or less in a row, to Young & Rub&n. 

A Yes. IamtryingtofmdPekrGeorgescuto 

tellPetcrGeorgcscuthatIamgoingtohavea-Iam 

going to have a press conference, and I am going to say 

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that Young & Rubicam was one of tk companic~ to which I bad 

refaxd Monica Lcwimky. And I was giving him notia. 

I did the same thing at American Express. I don’t 

know why you don’t have that - that down. 

Q Okay. And who would you have given that heads-up 

to at American Express? 

I 

A The chinnan of the company. 

Q whichiswho? 

A Harvey Golub (phonetic). 

Q Okay. Now, based on what you‘ve told us before 

illtkAmrriunEXplUSMglCOIltryiDgtObdpMS.LewinsLy 

getrjob,youwacsp&ingwitbawomannmrdFairburn;is 

that tight? 

A That’s right. I did not caIl Ms. Fairburn about 

wbatIwasgoingtosayinmypIcsscenfauK!c. Icallaltlle 

&airman because I was mentioning the company. 

Iamthtseniordirectoronthatboard,anditwas 

vayimpartaotformtosaytothechairmanthatat3:30.1 

was going to have a press conference, and I was going tc 

includeAmaicanExpRXsinthetbreccompaniestllatIwas 

going to name in my press conference. 

And that was proper. It was good manners. And 

it’s as it should have been. 

Q Had you, prior to that point, had any conversation 

with Mr. Golub about Ms. Lewinsky? 

Page 199 

1 A 1 had ItOt. 

2 Q And then 1:22, there’s a call with Mr. Bennett I 

3 won’taskyoutksutJstanatofthat,cxccptwasthatcall4 A IthinkthatwasacalltoMr.Bennetttotellhim 

5 thatweweregoingtomakeastatement 

6 Q Okay. Do you know whether - 

7 A hnCtX?ahthatthatWaStheOne. 

8 Q Okay. I’m armming thiscallwasaftcrthelmeting 

9 you had with Mr. Bennett that you described, that WC didn’t 

0 get into the substance of. 

1 A That’sright Andweneedtoreallycheckandsee 

2 cGmlywbmtbatwas,mdwccaaf~itou!fkornlnylawyc7. 

3 Q Andifyou’llholdonasecond4 A It may be on my calendar. 

5 Q Exactly. I might have some&iq that - actually, 

6 Idon’t Idobaveaom&ingn&tingt&~frem 

7 Mr.BcnncaontbeZOth,brrtIsbowcdyouthaf~dthatwas 

8 WhcnyouwueinNewYork. 

9 Okay. And I’m going to hand you a copy of what 

0 we’ll d VJ-9. 

1 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. VI+ was 

2 marked for identification.) 

3 Andthkisacopyofthestatementthatyouread 

4 aloud to the pm; 4 that right? 

5 ARight 

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Q And I’m going to - I guess, because I don’t have 

enough copies for everyone, but so no cne is confused as to 

conwrSthac’sjustacouplcmancrsIwanttaaskabouton 

this, but just - I guess we’ll go over the paragraphs. 

A ShaII I mad it? 

Q Yes, sir. 

A “My name is Vernon Jordan. I first of all want to 

thankyouforcoming. AndseumdIy,IwanttosaytlnuIan 

goingtortadastatffncnt,andafttrIshallhavtreadmy 

statement, I will not take questions. I’m going to kavc 

and go back to work. 

“1 did two things for Ms. Monica Lewinslq. I 

assisted hn in trying to fmd employment in the private 

sectori.nNewYorkCity. Irefcnedkrforinte+ewsat 

Amaican Express and at Revlon, whcze I’m privileged to 

suveasadimctor. IalsorefemxlhertoYoung&Rubicarn, 

a New York advutising agency. 

“Secondly, when she was stud with a subpoena, 

andatherrequcst,I nxommcndedavtrycompetent 

Washington lawyer, Mr. Frank carter. I actually 

took her to Mr. Car&s office, I introduced them, 

and I returned to my offla. 

“I want to say to you absolutely and unequivocally 

thatMs.Lewinskytoldmcinnounaxtaintemisthatshedid 

not have a sexual relationship with tht President At no 

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Page 201 

timedidIeversuggest--say,sugges$orintimatetober 

that she should Iie. 

‘Throughout my professional career, I have 

been privileged to assist people with their vocational 

aspirations. I have done so for two reasons. First, I 

stand on the shoulders of many individuals who have helped 

me. And second, I believe to whom much is given, much is 

required, and so I believe in giving a helping hand 

“For many years now, and especially sina 1 

chaired the Clinton transition in 1992, I am consulted by 

individuals - young and old, male and female, black and 

white, Hispanic and Asian, rich and poor, cabinet manhers 

and secmnuies - for assistana. And I have bad some 

success - from paraIegaIs to mailroom clerks, from 

cooperate directors to cE0s. 

“I was pleased to be helpful to Ms. Lewinsb, 

whose drive, ambition, and personaIity were impressive. 

Ms.Lewin&ywasref~tomcbyBettyCtmie,ascaaary 

to the Resident. 

“Yesterday aftexnoon, I was served a subpoena by 

the independuit counsel, Kameth w. Stan, to appear before 

the*dJury. Iwillanswu the Gnxud Jury’s questions 

directly, completely, and trutbfu.Uy. I fuIl appreciate the 

gravity of this situation. 

‘My law partner and friend, William Hundley, is my 

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law, and Mr. Hut&y will rep-t mc in the prcmiss. 

Thank you very much” 

Q Now, first of all, let me ask a background 

question. In terms of the information you had read in 

thepress-whichIgucsswouldheThcWashin@mPost 

storyonthe2laandanyprcssthattknwouldhaveban 

inotberpapersortbatoneontht22nd-didanyofthal 

press indicate to you tht specific nature of the aI.leged 

sexual relationship between Lewinsky and the President, 

ordiditjust&racte+itasageneraItenn, 

%exuaI relationship”? 

A That’StkWay!chamtmZit. Im63nQ I understand that, but I guess what I’m asking is: 

Did any of the press, up until that time, indicate 

thtspecifrcnatureofthtaIIegedsexuaIactsbetween 

Ms. Lewinsky and tbc President - do you know? 

A You’rea&iqmctottllyoucxsctlywhat~mdin 

tbe!lcwSpapa. What1un&rstoodthencwspapatoheahout 

was 9wual Ielationships being alleged between the Rcsidalt 

and Ms. Lewin&y. 

Q And as you sit here now, you don’t have any 

recolkction or understanding as to any specifics that 

wercallegcdatthattimc? 

A.No. 

Q Okay. Now, going down to the section about 

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Ms. Licwinsky, whm you indicate that ha &lye, ambition, 

andpasonalitywueimpizssive-whatdoyoubssethatcn? 

A IsatandItaIkedtohcr. Isawberseveral 

times. Ihadscenhcrfourtimcsuptothattimc,andshc 

didhavedrivqsbc~obviously~bitiau,urdwtrnsbcvw 

not in tears, she was impressive. 

Q Bottom Iine, in terms of your personaI interaction 

with Ms. Lewinsky - did you find her impressive? 

A Idid. Isaidit. 

Q Now, subsequent to -andifIcanjusthaxa 

sKxmd,bccauseIwantt0makesufcwe’Itdoingthisinan 

order that can get you out of here at 4:30. 

A Thankyau. 

MR.BIEN’I3-k Andhytheway,MaclameF~ 

mayhethisisagoodtimcforusjusttotakeatwo-minutc 

bnak,mdmaybcMr.Jo&ncanconfuwithhis~hut 

theissuePDREPERSON: Thatwillbcgood. 

MR. BIENERT Is that okay? 

THEwrrNEss:TllankyoL 

(llx witness was cxcusai at 4:00 pm. and recalled 

at 4:16 pm.) 

l ** 

MRWISENBERG: L.ctthtruxrdrcflcctthtwi&ss 

basreenteredtbeGrandJuryrwm. 

PageZOO-Page203 

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Page 201 

1 FOREPERSON: Mr. Jordan, you’re still under oath 

2 THEWITNESS: Thankyouvefymuch. 

3 BY ML WISENBERG: 

4 Q Mr. Jordan, the grand jurors had some questions 

s thattheywantedustoask,andoneofthemis: 

6 Wat you surprised that Ms. Lcwhsky, on 

7 Decemba1!3th,wouldhavebroughtyoutksubpocnainthe 

8 Joncscase,giveathatuptotbattimc,itwasjustsomchdy 

9 youwcnhtlping-afriendof&ttyCurrie’s-togtta 

0 job? Wereyousurprisedbytbtfactthatskwouldconzto 

1 you with her sub- issue? 

2 A No,Iwasnotsurprised. Ithinkthatrightat 

3 themomakt_skprobablyfeltlikeIwasafriendwhocixld 

4 be helpful. 

5 Q YoutcstXedthatyouhaveaverybusysckduk. 

6 A Yeah. 

7 Q WbydidyoudcvotcsomuchtimttnIb4oniaLewidy. 

8 bothontkjobf~tandthePauhJoacsfront? Whydidyot 

9 dcvotesomuchtimttoMonicaLminsky-notahigh-level 

D pasoaattbeWhiteHou.se-givenyourvuybusysckdule? 

I A Well, helping people at low kveh is something 

2 that I do and have always done, number one. 

3 Andnumbertwo,givtn~Ido,Idon’tthinlrit 

I wasadispn3jxxtimatc8mountofmytime. Itwassom&ing 

5 tbatIhadtimetod0. Itwasacoupleoftelep~whichI 

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sigacd affidavit? 

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A Ijustthinkshewanttdmetoknowthatshehad 

signed it, and sk showed it to me. I don’t - I don’t 

ascribe any other motivation to that 

Q Did she ever discuss with you at all the 

issue of perjury? 

A Never. 

Q Did you ever discuss that with her? 

A Never. 

Q Did tk two of you ever discuss the issue of 

wktkr or not you could be caught or get in trouble for 

wfratyousaidinacivildepositionaraciviltrial? 

A Ihavcrtad-IhaVCm3dthat~a~paper. 

Anditisquitesturmingtome. Iamoldenough,wise 

enough, and smart enough not to opine about somethiq 

that I don’t know anything about_ 

Q titheanswer alsOtothatistkrewasn0 

such discusion? 

A Absolutely not. 

Q You t&if&i yesterday that you said to kr 

5xam&k@toeffcdof--wknskwastalkiugaboutbow 

difficuhitwastotallrtothcPrrsidenfyousaidthatyo 

sdidsamcthingtohatoeffectof,youhnow,”whenyoucan’ 

rcachhim,arify~needtotalk,youhow,youcanoUm’ 

- something to that effect. 

Page 205 

did on the job search I made three telephone calls. It 

doesn’t take long to do that. 

ThepeopIethatIcalledknewwhoIwasandhad 

some faith in and confidence in me, and I’d known tkm over 

the years. 

At American Express I was - I’m the senior 

director. I’ve been on that board since 1977. I’ve 

been on the Revlon board since early - since tk early 

’80s. I have had an association with Yourq & Rubicam since 

1970, when I ran the United Negro College Fund. 

So number one, getting in touch with people didn’t 

takeawholelotoftime. TotelltknwhatIhadtotell 

tbcmdidn’ttakeawholelotoftime. Sointermsofbow 

IspendmytimeandwhatIdo,itwasnotforme 

disproportional amount of my time. 

Q Butyouhadalsotoldustbatyouendcdupdevoting 

mlxetilnctotkkiadof~andfeeding0fMalicakrself. 

A I did. Sk was a young lady obviously in trouble, 

and I helped her. I’m not apologetic about it. It is what 

it is. 

Q Why do you think that she brought you her signed 

affi&vi& given the fact that when she had previously triai 

todiscussaproblemwiththedraf$youbadcutbcrshort 

andsaid,“That’samatterbetwanyouandyourattomcy.’ 

Why do you think sk would have brought you a copy of tk 

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Why did you feel that you were in a position to 

taketbaszca&8iventbatyouwouldn’tatctssarilyhow 

whatshehadbeentalkingtothcIhsidentabouforwanting 

to talk with him about? 

A AllIsawwasfrustration. AndIthoughtthatifI 

couldsom&owklpkrwithkrfnxzmtion,Iwasprrpartd 

todothat. 

Q Given the fact that you’ve made it very clear 

tbatkrsubstantivtlegalmatterswueverymuchsamething 

you didn’t want to deal with - you wexn’t that kind of 

ala--- 

A Right 

Q -whyyoudidyoufcelcompekdtoevcngetkra 

lawyeranddrivektogetthelawyer? 

A She&edforthehelp,shedidnotknowthe 

lawycr,anditwas-Isaid,“You~bybcrc,Iwilltakt 

you to the lawyer.” 

WithA4aggieWiIliirms,Isaid_‘MaggitWiyw 

youcomc~“Isaid,“FmnkCarteryoucumehez,andI 

wiII put you and Maggie Williams to@kr,” period. I would 

have taken Maggie. 

Q Doyouknowanythingaboutacodenameused 

bchvacnMonicahinskyandBettyCurriewhentkywen 

p@lgCiIdlOthd 

A IdODOt. 

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Q I asked you a question about whether or not 

you were surprised that Monica Lwinsky would bring you 

the subpoena on Dazmbu 19th. We’ve askd you a lot of 

general qutstions about your concern,, or lack the7eof, for 

you, for the Fksident 

Were you wnamcd, at any time after she brow 

youhcrsubpocaaonDuxmbcr1!hh,aboutcontinuingtobcl~ 

bu,givalthcpublicitythatbadalnzadycomeoutabouttk 

the help that had beta given to Webb Hubbell by, amon/ 

others, yourself? 

A Absolutely not. 

Q Andwhyisthat? 

A Bazaw Webb Hubbell was a friend of mine. I met 

him in Little Rock during the txansition. Webb Hubbell cant 

dh&lytomctoaskmetohclphimasbcwasccmtcmplatiDg 

hisdeparturefromrk~tofJustice,andafterbe 

left. He came to M and directly asked me for help, and I 

helped him. 

AndIreadwhereIhelpedhimtokeephimquict; 

tbatmybelpatRevloo~abouthtimotxy. WbatIknow 

about hush money, Counsck)r, is that it’s zver invoiced 

and everything about the Revlon nlationship was open, 

aboveboard. It was by arrangement. 

I took him to Revlon, introduced him to 

Howard Gittis, and I left. I did not stay for the 

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Page 209 

negotiations. I helped a fellow who was in trouble, paiod 

Q Well, I understand that, but given the fact 

that it was already a major public issue - the help 

that Webb Hubbell got from yourself and fiom others in 

helping to anange jobs that gamered him roughly $400,000 

to $500,000 - 

A I just know about what I did for Webb Hubbell - 

Q Right. ButI’mjust - 

A - which was at Revlon, which was a SlOO,OOO 

contract, $60,000 of which he was paid, and it was terminated 

afterheadmittedguik 

Q Buymyqutstiont6youatthispointisnotsomuch 

abouttbcsubstanctofwhstyoudidfaRcvlon~whetberor 

not Revlon would - if they wue paying him money, would 

invaiceitashushmoney,or~wfitthcrornatyauor 

Revlon could be helping somebody legitimately and not m 

knowwhatsom&dyelse’sultiormoti~is-ntmcofthose 

questions which go the substan= of what you did for Webb ic 

getting him to Revlon. 

Myquestiongoestofactthatbythen-by 

tktimeyouwexhelpingMonicakwinsky-thewhole 

Webb Hubbell-Revlon issue was a major public issue. 

ARight. 

Q Andsomyquestiontoyou-itwillbelast 

questioQbecausewewanttogetyououtofhcmearly. 

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Page 210 

FOREPERSON: In, like, two minutes. 

BY MR. WI!XNBERG: 

Q So my question to you is: That is a public issue 

Itwasthcrt--wfiatcvcrthtsubstaaawasbythtway,itw~ 

tlzre, it was a major issue. 

Didthis~offdarmbtllsforyouwbcayoufouad 

outonDacanbcr1!XhthatMc&aLewin&ywasawitncss? 

A It did not set off alann bells for me. And helping 

peopkissome&ingthatIwastaughttodo,ifIwasina 

positiontodoit 

I’venevernmfromit I’vegottensome 

satisfactionfromit,aadIthinktLrearcpeoplewith 

wbomIInl~klpaI-wkuiIbaVcMpcdwbohaveba&i~ 

from it. 

AnditstemsfromwbatIsaidinmystatancnt: To 

thtcxdcntthatI~~~succtssful,tothcextcnt~tl 

havebccomeacorpaatclawyaoracooperatedircctor,to 

tht extent that I travel around the world, I got there 

IXcause somebody helped me. 

MR. WISENBERG: at’s all I have for today. 

FORBPERSON: We havt to conch&, because the 

marshals want to esant Mr. Jordan. 

MILBIENERT: Arethcyonadeadline-the 

marshals? 

RXEPERSON: No, this is what I’m saying. I’m 

Page211 

1 saying that we’re going to coIlclu& now. 

2 MR. WISENBBRG: May the witness be excused? 

3 FDREPERSON: Yes, he may. 

I TIEWITNESS: MayIbeexcuscd? 

5 FOREPERSON: Yes. 

6 ‘IHE-: Thankyou,MadamcFoxelady. ‘Ihank 

7 yoq Counselor. 

B MR.BIENERT: Andifwecanjustcumesayouwitb 

9 your with your counsel in two Inin- outsi&. 

3 MR. W’ISENBERG: He’s got - I think - 

I MR. BIENERT: oh, that’s right, because he’s got to 

2 go. Okay. ‘l&it’s fme. 

3 MILWISENBERG We’Ujusthavctotakhkrabout 

4 ifwcxKSdtosctyouagain. 

5 THEwlmEss: Iwon’t-1’llbeoutofthecountry 

5 fora& 

7 MR. BIENER’F ‘Ihat’s fine. 

3 THE WITNESS: And then after that, I’m yours. 

3 MR. BIENERT: Don’t worry about it. We will not 

1 imufkre with your trip. 

I THE WITNESS: Have a nice day. 

t A JUROR Have a nice trip. 

1 THEwrINEss: Thgnkyou. 

I (me witness was cxd) 

r 

Page208 -Page211 
1789 

Page 212 

I (Wlxreupon, at 4:28 p.m., the taking of tk 

Ztstimonyinthepresenaofaful1quorumoftheGrandJury 

3 was concluded.) 

t ***** 

Page 212 - Page 212 

DiversifiedReDortingServices.Inc. (202) 296-2929 
1790 
1791 

Vernon Jordan, 515198 

Grand Jury 

Page 1 to Page 235 

CONDENSED TRANSCRIPT AND CONCORDANCE 

PREPARED BY: 

OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 

Suite 490-North 

Washington, DC 20004 

Phone: 202-514-8688 

FAX: 202-514-8802 
1792 

Vernon Jordan, 515198 XWW 

Page 6 

MR. BIENERT: And, Madam Court Reporter, just to 

f -make sure we’re doina this In the best wav for vou. would vou 

: 1: prefer for me to hand ‘them to ou so you can L a 

THE COURT REPOLTER: No. 

MR. BIENERT: Okay. So we’ll o ahead and mark 

:cithem and then hand them directly to Mr. Jor 8 

;:;nght? 

an, IS that 

.:. THE COURT REPORTER: That’s tine. 

._. BY MR. BIENERT: 

,_ -. 

.--. 0 Mr. Jordan. before we 

3 

et started,, though, and ht 

::::me go ahead. then, and hand you VE -1. which IS a blank 

::::calendar, and VEJ-2, which is your calendar be innin with 

: 1: September 29th through the end of January 19 B 8. Is 9 hat what 

.--. 

.. :. 

. they appeg to pe,srr. 

I--. 

‘-6’ 

! fL f questions, 

Q Okay. Before we go ahead and get started asking 

let me just make sure you recall the admonitions I 

;:t‘ 

4il 

ave on the.other appearance that you made. Do you recali 

;: 3: 

!z:‘ 

e admontron+zt,ve you about the Fifth Amendment? 

I^_ : 

.--_ Q 

[z::you again? 

Do you have any reason for me to go over that wfih 

E-3: A No. 

i-4: 0 

;rr:s1r? 

You’ll keep that in mind as you testify, correct, 

Page 2 Page 7 

I gave you 

;. . 

LO. A Yes. 

.i- Q, Similarly, do you recall the admonition 

i? iabout you~gh;ttscounsel? 

;iI 

:5: 0 

:E: A 

Do you have counsel 

He’s outside in the ha R 

resent today? 

[-‘ Q And that’s Mr. Hundley, correct? 

rs: A William Hundley. 

:‘ 

_-. 

. - 

_-- 

!11 

_-- 

.--. 

;:;. 

..: 

.-- 

:-i- _--. 

,._. 

.- 

.--. 

K_.. - : 

:^.- 

,--. 0 And is there any need for me to go over that again? 

iI:- _^_. 

.-- ‘-7. 

,--. 

,. 

.-- 

/--. 

,--, A No. 

[::: Q And, like the other admonitions, you’ll keep that 

:: 3 ; one in mind as you testify today, correct? 

[I:! A Yes. sir. 

r-5; Q All right. What we’re going to do today is you’ll 

Page 3 

‘fr-Whereupon 

. : VERNON E. JORDAN, JR. 

j i iwas called as a witness and, after having been duly sworn by 

: z-the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and testified 

::.as follows: 

ExAMINAllON 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

.-. 0 Good morning. Mr. Jordan. 

. 

--. A Good momin 

. 

.:I:record? Q Can you go a 9, ead and state your full name for the 

- : A Vemnn F Jordan, Jr. 

And what I’m going to do before 

--. ._..._.. _. 

:::: ‘MR. BIENERT: 

.:4‘we get started. just to 

3, 

ive you a referenceas we 

::c- l’m aoina to arve vou w at we’ve marked VEJ-1 ; 

0 along, 

w ich is a .._I blank csilenbar from October of ‘97 throu h January of ‘98. as 

as VEJ-2. which is a copy of your ca 9 endar provided to 

eys for the same timeframe. 

:. BIENERT: 

::2:~11 

.__..---- 

: : 5: us by your attom .^_. 

.-e. .^. BY M, n lat way, as we go along, if you want to consult 

r;;z;gaet 

Id that, sir? 

Page 8 

: : : recall that when testified on the other occasions, we 

: 2 : went over a lot o 

Q 

That sounds about right. 

Just to ive you a preview, what I intend to do 

! 3: today is we’ve gathere 8 a lot more documents since we spoke 

[is 1 the last time and our intention toda is to kind of start 

[I :I with back in October with what we Lieve may be pertinent 

[ 12 ; timeframes and plan on going chronologically where we’ll just 

[ 13 !show you some documents we have and basically ask you v&at 

[ 1 J 1 the facts are relative to those documents. 

r:51 A 

Q 

That’s fine, sir. 

Okay? 

[I61 

[ 17 Iwe’re goin 

Now, the first thing I’m 

[ 13 lif you wan 

to direct your attention to 

oin to do, then, is 

8%e cto r 11, 1997 and 

[ 1g)out, I think October 1 

our own calendar, this is to help you 

[23] A Right. 

would be right there. 

[?:I Q 

[c? ~correct? 

And by that you’re looking at Exhibit VEJ-2, 

[13! A 

[241 

[25! AQ 

Ri ht. 

Alflri 

9 

ht. 

Yes, do. 

Do you see Saturday, October 1 lth, sir? 

blCSti4W Page 1 to Page 8 
1793 

BSA Vernon Jordan, 515198 XMAxfZ?l 

Page 9 

0 At 8:00 a.m.,,there’s an entry there that says - 

if it looks lrke RTJ board meetrng? 

.- i A That’s correct. 

:’ 

-2 

_-- : 

_-- ..: __ :. _ 

._r 

And how often do you have those board meetings? 

j Once a month or so? 

A No, not once a month. Once every two months, 

:maybe. It ust de ends upon the needs of the club and the 

i business &at we !rave to do. 

Q When vou do the board meetinos, how lono do they 

:Isitypically run? + 

.- :- .--_ A Cou le of hours, maybe. 

.--. Q Ancfdo you typicall pla gotf there after? 

,_. 

_--. A Sometimes, I do. .5? ome v rmes, I don’t. 

,__. (1 Do you have any way of recalling whether on this 

ii; i board meeting, whrch would have been October 11 th, do you 

;:; 1 know whether ou played golf after? 

i-i- 

,--, A 7 have no recollection as to whether I played 

Page 10 

:: ; golf. It is entirely possible that after the board meeting 

‘:; at about 10:00 or after lunch that I may have played a round 

3jOf golf. 

4‘ Q When ou go and 

5 i example, .at this golf cub, Y do you i 

ou play rounds of olf, for 

ave. either yourse 9 f or 

61 an 

7 

one wrth you, have a cell 

-: ab e to take calls or place P 

hone or any way that you’re 

c-al s? 

i’ A I generally, when I la golf, do not take a 

4: cell phone with me. I have two ce PX I p ones and it is 

:; oossible that there was a cell ohone in mv cart. I do 

olf is so bad that 

_-. ’ Q Well, let me show 

i I; j can bracket some of the events o Y 

ou some documents and see 

that day. First of all, 

if we 

Page 11 

!:4: 

[lj: 

A Yes. 

Q Do you see that, sir? 

::6; A I do: [‘-I Q And 1’11 further make a representation to 

if 3 jsir. that Grand Jury Exhibit VEJ-7 is a co 

ou 

g 

y of another &hite 

;: 3 1 House record and this is what’s called a ecret Service 

;z: ~Activ 

1 

Report reflectin 

% 

the whereabouts of the President 

[::;on tha same day, Otto er 11 1997. 

r::’ 

i:3, 

Do you see that, sir? 

A I do. 

._.: !_.I! Q And you’ll see on this particular document it 

i: 5: indicates that the President was in the Oval office at 9:52 

Page 12 

: :.anQ was in the Oval Stucy at 10.28. Do you see that, sir? 

._: 

,-. A I do. 

,I Q And I’ll fira:l re resent to you, sir, in recorded 

I4:teleohone calls taken shcn ;YR y aer this ” time period Monica 

;S!Lewnsk indicates in those calls that she had recent1 met 

[s]with the b resident, recemly discussed with the Press J ent her 

r7ldesrre to work in New York and that the Presrdent indicated 

[sithat he was goin 

i 9 1 seerng if you cou 3 

to talk w&h you. among others, about 

d help 

113! Now, just based on those representations just as 

[ ::I back round, the final document that I would want to show you 

i 12 1 IS a 8 ocument that we’re marking VEJ-8. 

Ladies and 

[iii this IS a copy of one o 9 

entiemen of the grand jury, I believe 

tne documents you all have. It’s 

i : 5; the phone calls for October 11, 1997 and it should be the 

: 16 1 firs: page of the section mat ou have. 

!171 Lookrng at Exhrort y/ EJ-8. sir, you’ll see that that 

(18 1 is a document that has three entries on it. correct? 

i19! A Yes. 

i:o; Q And what I’ll re resent to 

:z 11 using a lot of documents like t i+ 4 

ou. sir, and we’ll be 

rs. what I represent to 

[:z) 

12 3 1 Y he summary based upon actual telephone records we’ve 

ou rs these are summary telephone records and we’ve prepared 

!z41obtained through grand jury subpoenas and other documents. 

izs]Okay? 

Page 13 

[II And that the records indicate that on that day at 

~2 1 lo:57 a.m.. which would be a proximately three minutes after 

rslMonica Lewinsky left the Whi P e House at the same time that 

[ 4 Ithe President was there. that there was a phone call between 

[: 1 qurseif at the Robert Trent Jones Golf Course and President 

L 6 1 5 lrnton that lasted nine minutes. 

And jet me 

~~~document and that wi 9 

o ahead and show you one additional 

be VEJ-9 and I’ll represent to you, 

19 1 sir,. that this is what’s called a presidential call lo 

[ lolwhrch is a log maintained by the White House In rcatrng 

.%. 

[ 1 I Itelephone conversations that the President actually has with 

r:zlpersons. 

indicates that between lo:57 a.m. and 

j:ij!l:.O6 a.mTohzAa “4 urday. October 1 lth “The President tlkd.” 

! 151 indrcating talked. “with Mr. Vernon Jordan in Alexandria,” 

r~sland it gtves the phone number of the Robert Trent Jones Golf 

[:71Coune. Do you see that? 

i181 A It says 503 here. 

:I91 .~~, Q And it should be 703. correct? 

i201 A It should be 703. 

(11 Q And that’s on VEJ-9 where you made that change. 

IZZI A Ri ht 

!231 Q 02,;. N ow. sir, based on these documents, do you 

; 2 4 1 believe that you spoke wrth President Clinton on Saturday, 

i 2 5 1 October 11 th from the gotf course? 

Page 14 

A I have no reason to contradict what I see here and 

I:; I think it’s reasonable to assume that based on this that I 

t 3 1 had a conversation with him. I have no recollection of that 

i 4 jconversation. 

Q Do you have an recollection of ever speaking to 

t z i the President from the Robert Ty rent Jones Golf Course or 

r7lclub house? 

A I have no recollection of having had a conversation 

Iilwtth the President. I have had many conversations with the 

[ 10 1 President from the golf dub. Whether I had a conversation 

[ 11 lwith the President on this particular day, as I said to you 

112 1 before, I do not recollect that. 

Seeing these documents, it is obvious and it is 

I::ialways within the realm of possibility that I had a 

11s 1 conversation with my friend, the President of the United 

t161States. 

Q Would you typicalty call the President from the 

1:; 1 Robert Trent Jones Gotf Course 

[ 19 1 somethin occur-r-in 

or would that be based upon 

where he ehher called you or ou got a 

rzolmessage s hat the ? ? 

A 

resident wanted you to call him. 

If I had a message from him I returned his call. 

$llf I had somethin to sa to him, then I called him up. If 

1231 Ihad something B o say r. o him wherever I was or whatever I 

r241was doing, I would stop and call him. 

[251 I have no recoliedion of the conversation. I do 

Page 9 to Page 14 OlCStan 
1794 

BSA Vernon Jordan. 515198 

Page 15 

: : not deny that it happened. It obvcusly ha pened. I do not 

.z: recollect it. nor do I recollect the content o P the 

3 : conversabon. 

0 Do you have any recollection of ever on your own 

:i initiative without erther ettin a call from the President 

6 1 or a message from the B rest .a ent cailrng the President from a 

- 1 golf course or a olf club house? 

3’ A 0 R , yes. Yes. And the President has called me at 

;jgolf courses. _ 

2; Q Okay. So did the President mention anything to you 

: 1 in that conversation about possrby helping find a job for 

: !I 1 anyone.? 

A No. Counsel, I said to you when I was here before 

i 1; i that the first call involving Monica Lewrnsky and the first 

: ~5 jtrme the name Monica Lewinsk 

: 5’ not by the President, but by Be & Currie, t%e Presrdent’s 

was brou ht to my attention was 

i : _ i secretary. 

_--i MR. WISENBERG: Can I ask a question? 

.. j] 

iL^3: 

MR. BIENERT: Sure. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

.^. : Q Mr. Jordan, do you ever remember talking to the 

!s_ i President about Ms. Lewinsky from that golf course or golf 

:: 3: club house? 

::j: A I have no recollection of having had a conversation 

: 2 5; with the President about Monica Lewinsky from the golf course 

Page 16 

: I I at any time 

-,. MR. BIENERT: Now. I’m goin 

‘;jyou two other exhibits which are basically % 

to go ahead and show 

ackups for what’s 

:4;summarized in the phone call exhibit you have, which I think 

i 5 1 is VEJ-8. 

!61 THE WITNESS: Right. 

‘?I BY MR. BIENERT: 

181 0 And these would be VEJ-10 and VEJ-1 I, both of which 

[ 3 1 are presidential call I s one showin 

?,. s 

a conversation 

:: 31 between you and the resrdent at 12: 0 p.m. on that same 

: :: 1 Saturday, October 11 th, and one showing a conversabon at 

-:318:59 p.m. - actually, it shows just a one-minute, very short 

f 13 i call, that same date. 

::41 Do you see that, sir? 

--j’ .- 1 A Mm-hmm. 

::p;; Q Lets go ahead and focus on VEJ-10 first, which, 

: : 7 1 ladies and gentlemen, on the summa 

. . _3iwould be the second call listed a 12: r 

sheet that you all have 

- 31 President Clinton to yourself. 

0 p.m. call from 

.- Do you see that, sir? 

.-nl 

_->_ A I do. 

Q Now 

iiz j particular day, corre cr 

ou were still at the golf course on that 

? 

:13:- A Yes. 

‘I41 Q So 

:I 5 i you were at the go Y f course, you belleve, as early as 8:00, 

ou would have still been at the golf course - 

Page 17 

: :3 1 Ihave no idea. 

Q And then I’m assumin your answer would be the same 

iSilas to the 12:20 call as to the IO:57 ca 9 I whrch ‘. IS you do 

::~lnot recall what you spoke with the President about. 

.‘1, A 

ii;jwas about. 

I have no recollectjon of what that conversation 

Q 

ii: i one-minute call, first of all. that number, 

Now, similarly, the 859 wrt&, a 

Q And I’ll just direct your attentton to VEJ-1 I, 

i;.which is the presidential log. Indicating a call to you at 

:j:that locab? or that number. 

:2; :doesn’t indicate. ._^, Q Okav. And as to that one-minute call. is it 

it<iaccurate, sir, that your answer would be the same as to 

~3: lthe other two calls, namely, you do not recall what you 

:zslwould have spoken with - rf you even spoke to the President 

Page 19 

I: 1 in that call? 

'^i 

i;js 

A I assume based on what you’ve shown me that I did 

eak to him. What it was about, I don’t have the slightest 

! 4 1 I,8 ea. It is possible if it only lasted one minute that I 

:5]was ttyin 

rs!Whether 3 

to reach him and did not succeed in doing so. 

talked to him or not. I have absolutely no 

i 7 1 recollection. By the same token, it is entirely ossible 

1 B 1 that we had conversations as these documen F [ 91 indicate. 

s so clearly 

Q In 

ftithose three calls t i 

our mind, is it at all possible that in any of 

e President made some reference, whether 

:3 1 by name or not, to your assisting in helping someone get a 

:31iob in New York? 

ilAy A No. 

1151 MR. BIENERT: 

::slattention to early November. 

Okay. Now we’re going to direct our 

:‘?I 

.I31 

MR. LERNER: Can I ask a question? 

MR. BIENERT: Sure. 

[191 BY MR. LERNER: 

[ZO; Q Does the President know that you’re a member of the 

; 2: 1 Robert Trent Jones Golf Course? 

.-^ :--I A The President knows I’m a member, he knows that I’m 

; 2 3 1 resident. 

: 2 4 ! R 

I have taken him there to play golf many times. 

e knows that I’m a member. 

/lil L-dI Q When he calls you at the Robert Trent Jones Golf 

Page 20 

[ 1 .Course what ha ens? He calls the operator at the Robert 

r; iTrent Jones Gol!eourse? 

A 

iii in the grill if 

He calls the operator and they find you. If you 

151 locker roo’m, Y 

ou’re in the pro shop if you’re In the 

here are a lot of phones, there are a lot of 

rslphone booths and the find ou. 

171 BY MR. Bl&ER? 

Q As a general matter, when the President calls 

Izion a weekend when you’re out doing something 

10 1 non-work-oriented, such as playing golf, has his 

1:lmore likely been to call you about somethin 

1:lmore important as opposed to just shooting 

13lexamoie? 

’ re 

YOU 

.~~, , 

:141 A It’s both and. 

Q So its ha pened all different ways at all 

i:zidifferent places at all di ffp erent bmes. 

lill A That is correct. Sometimes the call is a call to 

i is j say “I’m here working for the people and you are on the golf 

[191course, Jordan. Something’s wrong with this.” I mean, 

;ZO]it’S - we are friends. 

!z:l Q As you look at your calendar and think back on the 

;zlbmeframe, we’re looking at Qctober 1 lth. is there anything 

:z3lthat comes to mind, any issues that were floating around at 

134 Ithe time, that you believe you might have s oken to President 

rz5lClinton three bmes on a Saturday, two of w % ~ch when you were 

OIC-Starr Page 15 to Page 20 
1795 

BSA Vernon Jordan, 515198 

~___~__~ 

XMAX(U) 

Page 21 

; ; : at a golf course? 

i?: A I don’t know. Keep in mind we’re in the middle of 

:;]an election period. there are campaigns. I don’t know 

(: Iwhether this was before the Albu uerque reparation for the 

[sldebate. I forget when that was. 80 it co& have been any 

~6 1 number of issues or It could have been no issues at all. I 

i7ijust have no recollection. 

19, Q Okav. You’re talking about a presidential debate? 

L-1 

!91 

::?I 

A Yes.- 

Q Now. keep in mind this is ‘97, not ‘96. 

A All 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q All nght. Okay. So it could have been 

i :4 itransition - I mean. 1 don’t know. 

‘: 5: All rioht. Let’s qo ahead, just so we don’t get 

iiijthings too jumbled u if ii’s all rig,ht’with you, what I’m 

P 

oing to do is slide t f: ese to the side and then we’ll move on 

j ,__,.- 1:; o our -- next batch of documents. We’re going to focus on 

!:9learly November of 1997. 

Page 22 

111 believed was in the first week of December. Do you remember 

12 j saying that? 

131 A That is correct. 

Q What I’m going to do here, sir, is I want to show 

Ilj you some documents to see whether or not in light of those 

[ 6 1 documents you believe you might have been in error in terms 

(7 1 of placing your first knowledge of Monica Lewinsky in early 

LB 1 December to see if it could have actually been in early 

I 91 November. Okay? 

ilOj A Frne. 

!!I! Q 

11: 1 and have 

I’m just going to give you a series of documents 

ou look at them. 

[I31 '; he first document is going to be a document that 

~14 Iwe’ll label VEJ-14 and I’ll represent to ou, srr, that thus 

i 15 1 is a cop of a letter that was retrieved 

1L 

i om the computer of 

;16]tvtOnica ewrnsky. It’s a document that at least on its face 

r;~lhas a date of November 2. 1997. 

It says ‘Dear Be 

~~~~you the first two - actually, tx 

” and I’m going to read aloud to 

;;;I 

A Yes. Sure. 

rst three paragraphs, okay? 

Q And jet me make that the second, third and fourth 

:~;paragraphs. “I became a bit nervous this weekend when I 

[231 realized that Ambassador Richardson said he staff would be 

:24 i in touch with me this week. As ou know, the UN. is 

czjjsupposed to be my backup but ;3, cause VJ has been out of town, 

Page 24 

_- 

._. 

.-. ~?. 

A Yes. 

0 And similar1 or I should say additionally - 

We’ll iust reflect Y or the record that another 

i: -grand juror has’entered the room. 

iC: Additionally, is it accurate, sir. that you were in 

; s i fact out of town In the timeframe leading up to November 2nd’ 

--:And, specifically. you were in, for example, Europe October 

f 3: 24th throu 

%\ 

h October 30th or roughly thereabouts? 

I was in Paris. I made a speech at the Benjamm 

;i?l Mays Academy in Detroit on Friday evenrng. October 24th. and 

; 1: : I was picked u 

.l? P 

by rivate aircraft and flown to New York. 

; ::: I spent the nig t In he Hotel Regency and the next morning 

[ 13. I took private arrcraft to Pans from Teeterborough Airport. 

[: 4 :And I was in Pans, accordin to this - I went from Paris to 

: ; J : London and I returned from i! ondon on the Concord at seven 

[ ;6; p.m. and I was 

Q Rnd when would have been the firs 

icked up there and flown to Chica o. 

117: 9 day that you 

[: 3 : were back in your office after this trip that you just told 

[:5:us about? r7.m. A According to this calendar, I left Chicago and I 

;r I i went to Au usta National to lay golf. 

II-- B And that’s in georoia. correct? 

L--, 

[:3: A That’s inAugusta. ?&orgia. 

0 So you were out of town. And we’re using the 

I::icalendar, ladies and gentlemen. That’s getting us up to 

[I 1 through the Halloween timeframe, October 31st. correct? 

Page 25 

A Yes. Looks like I’m notback - I’m not back in my 

I: i office until Monday mominr, November 3rd. 

Q Okay. So ovember 3rd. Usin the date that’s on 

Iz:this exhibit VEJ-14 in the days leading up to f! ovember 2nd 

i 6: you had been out of town since approximately October 24th or 

[?:so. 

[S! A Right. 

c_,; Q And did not get back into your ofhce until 

[ ;a I November 3rd, correct? 

[I:: A Right. 

0 And additionally, there’s a reference in this 

t 1: i letter to a copy for VJ of the list of advertising PR firms. 

[I;. A Mm-hmm. 

Q Now sir it’s accurate is it not that when 

I: 2 i you testified here b&fore you indicated to us that at 

[ 17 :some point Monica Lewinsky did present to ou a list of 

[ 1s : advertising PR firms that she was intereste dy In working at, 

[lj;correct? _ 

!?o; A Yes. When she came to see me on December 11 th. 

Q Is it accurate that she gave 

ti_ jadvertising or PR firms on the first time tha ty 

ou the list of those 

you recall 

tz;:meeting with her7 

[:4: A That’s the first time I ever saw them or Monica 

(~5:Lewinsky. 

Page 23 Page 26 

Okay. Lets go ahead and look at what we’ll mark 

~__~ 

Page 21 to Page 26 OlCStarr 
-_ _~- 

1796 

Vernon Jordan. 5l5198 

Page 27 

:::submit to you that it’s relating to events the day before on 

:: 1 approximately the 5th. 

:31 It says, if you look at the highlighted portion, 

[ 4 :‘Woo. What a day. I met with the bg creep’s best friend 

rslthis momin It was very interesting. I have never met 

16 1 such a ‘rea B person in my entire life. You know how some 

:7j 

‘3; P ncredrble. He said with re 

eople wear their hearts on their sleeves, he wears hrs soul. 

131 business,’ We’ll see. He a 9 so sard t X 

ard to m job search ‘we’re In 

e creep had talked to 

:o; him and as I was leaving he said, IYou come ve 7 highly 

:I J recommended.“’ And then she wntes, “Tee hee ee. 

‘7’ Do vou see that. sir? .--, 

:13: ‘A I do. 

;:4; Cl Okay. I will also ask you to look_ at what we’ve 

. 5:marked as VEJ-17 and then I’ll 

9. 

o ahead and grve you VEJ-17, 

i 16 jwhich IS yet another e-mail and hrs one IS from Ms. Davis to 

:T I Monica Lewinsky. so its a reply, dated Wednesday, November 

iiei5th. 

If 

iiii”Who’s the d 

ou look at the hi 

F? Have you to B d me his name? Can you? I hope 

hlighted portion. it says, 

;l:lthat works out for you. Let me know. I have no time right 

:??lnow. I have to QO to my 7:30 a.m. class and I’m not dressed j--. 

123lyet.” 

And then tinall 

IGliexhibit, VEJ-18: whit 

ou’ll look at the next 

e-mail, this time from 

Page 28 

[I 1 Monica Lewinsky back to her friend Ms. Davis. in which 

[ 2 1 states - 

MR. WISENBERG: 

I z 1 the date and time for 

Pardon me, Tom. Can you 

u oses of the chronology? 

151 BY MR. BIt!NzRT: 

Q 

ItiFriday November 7th at .20 a.m. And a ain since we’re 

(8 ] talking’about a day’s difference 

Yes. Sorryabou;th; This%one has a date 

orn back o Japan, its 

[slunclear whether it was on the 61 or he 7th. 

II31 It says, and its from Monica to Ms. Davis, “I’m 

[ 111 alittle nervous to do the whole name of the BF. His first 

: 12 1 name is Vernon. It went very well, as I said yesterday. 

F 13 1 Iwon’t be hearing from him until later next week. I know 

: 14; he saw the big creep yesterday afternoon. Unfortunately, 

; 15: that fucker hasn’t called me so I donY really know what 

: 16 1 happened in the meeting or whatever else IS going on with 

: :T 1 him. Oh, well.” 

~‘F(i Have YOU seen that. sir? 

give 

of 

us 

_--> 

:191 AQ 

I read it with you. 

Iii)jThis one we’re 

And now sir, let me show you another WAVE record. 

.,,i I’ll as & 

oing to dall VEJ-22. 

you sir, to look at a copy of VEJ-22. 

li;iThat. sir, is a copy of a WAVE record sheet indicatin 

:?.I lentrances and exits into the White House by yoursel P , 

;?slVernon Jordan. Do you see that? 

Page 29 

ill A Ido. 

0 And it shows that on November 5. 1997 at 2:00 you 

Ii j visited POTUS. What does POTUS stand for? 

!41 A President of the United States of America. 

(51 Q At the West Wing of the White House, correct? 

I61 A That’s right. 

Q So based on this record ent 

!i;with the President on November 5th. corre I? ? 

you actually visited 

is1 A That’s right. 

[lo!. 0 

; 111 inaccurate? 

And do you have any reason to believe that that’s 

[1X1. A I do not have any reason to believe that that is 

i I 3 1 inaccurate. 

!I41 Q And then, finally, if you woutd lock at what we’ve 

rlslmarked as VEJ-19. 

I161 Sir, that’s a thank you letter, isn’t it? 

;17: A Mm-hmm. 

i181 MR. BIENERT: Dated November 6, 1997. 

MR. WISENBERG: 

ihilon the chronol 

BY Mv B::#RT: 

That would be the bottom of page 44 

1211 

[Z?] 0 And it’s addressed to you, correct? 

:231 A It is. 

:241 Q Mr. Vernon Jordan. 

:251 A Right. 

olcstarr 

Page 30 

Q Aiken. Gum Strauss Hauer 8 Feld it gives your 

if j address, and then it says. ‘&?a, Mr. Jordan: It was a real 

13; pleasure meeting with ou. 

:;:demandrn%,your schedy ule IS 

I know how very busy and 

I particularly appreciated your 

i 5 j taking the rme to speak with me. 

;i;mentron how overcome I was by 

I feel compelled to 

::;people wear their heart on 7 

our genuineness. While some 

theirs eeve, you ap ear to wear 

[ 5 : your soul. It made me happy to know that our P- nend has such 

[ 31 a wonderful confidant rn you. I believe I may have ne lected 

::: 1 to mention that while my current position is administra 9. rve. 

1::: I am seeking more substantrve work in my next position. 

r:::Thanks agarn for your_trme and I look forward to heanng from 

;;:;lou;gny,xour return. And it says, “Sincerely, Monica 

!:j: 

[ii: 

Do y;u ste;;_hat? 

::-’ Q All right. Now. sir. based upon these documents. 

i; 3 j and that’s dated November 6th, correct? 

li3; A Right. /1^. 0 Do you believe that you might have met with Monica 

;? 1; Lewinsky on November Sth? 

i: 1 having met with her and my calendar does not so indicate. 

Page 31 

I:! Q What is East Lake? 

A East Lake is the original Bobby Jones Golf Course 

I: 1 in Atlanta Geor ia. 

‘Q fiow when you put in your calendar - when you have 

[zieither yourself or ou 

YI 

have yourself write the word hold 

r: f that’s something t at’s put in advance of a date because you 

[s 1 want to make sure that ou kee that date open correct? 

A First of a r I hold f&East Lake that’s my 

,!zi handwriting. Day room at the Ritz-Carlton, Francine. 404 - 

[ 111 confirmation number Four Seasons Hotel, that is my 

[ 1: 1 secretary’s handwritin 

ow. let me go back to my question. Is it 

you put the term hold in your 

rxlcalendar, what you’re doing IS signalling to your staff that 

I .~~,, I E I vou want to keep that dav open. 

[iii A That is wireit. 

Q And so that means 

i:iiin in advance of that day so that in 

[ 2 0; or whatever the timeframe might be; 

[?I: inadvertently schedule you for somet 

[X] A That is correct. 

Q And is it also accurate sir that sometimes when 

ig:lyou plan things in advance and you put hold that things 

[ 25 1 change and you sometimes wind up not doing what it was :hat 

Page 32 

Page 27 to Page 32 
I 

1797 

asA Vernon Jordan, 515198 XMAX(M) 

Page 33 Page 36 

: 1997. here in Washinaton. at 2:O0. correct? ; :. there’s no indication there that you were meetrng with the 

::. President on that da either, is there? 

:I‘ A No Ty hats naht. 

- A Yes. okay. 

_Q You weren’t playing golf in Georgia on the 5th. 

; ‘were you? 

.z- A I didn’t say, counsellor, that I was la 

g i in Georgia. I told you where the East Lake Golf rzb Iu 

ing golf 

was and 

-: I told 

3:was t ; 

ou that my calendar said hold. I did not say that I 

ere. 

2: Q Do 

: ; : presence at the Wl? 

ou agree with me, sir, that based upon your 

rte House on November 5th at 200 that 

:: : despite what’s in your calendar about East Lake, you didn’t 

::r:play golf at East Lake that day, you were here in Washington? 

‘-: A Obviously that IS true, but, secondly, let me say 

!; j to you, what my calendar sa s it sa 

ET z 

s hold for East Lake. 

1:’ I have not said that I was at ast La e. 

.. i‘ 0 And do you understand that the reason we’re doing 

::Githis whole line of inquiry is to figure out where you were on 

: : 5 : November 5th and whether you could have interviewed Monica 

: :3-) Lewmsky that day? 

A That is obvious to me. I obviously, if this is 

:E I i correct, was not in Atlanta. 

--il Q And then based upon the fact that the White House 

!r;; records show that you met with the President at 2:00 on 

:: 4 : November 5th and coupled with the other documents that we’ve 

:: 5:just shown you, do you believe that you could have met with 

Page 34 

: 1 JMonica Lewinsk on November 5th here in Washington, DC? 1 A Ih ave no recollection of having met with Monica 

.: j Lewinsky on November 5th and, unfortunately, my calendar does 

: 4: not show that. I have absolutely no recollechon of that. 

:j> Q And let me ask you m 

.c. -.believe that you could have met with i 

question again. Do you 

et? --3 i. A 

: 5 ! It. 

It is entirely possible. I have no recollection of 

: i ?i Lewinsk 

Q If in fact your first meeting was with Monica 

in the first week of November Instead of the first 

.:::week of ‘6, 

: 1: 1 she 

cember. then it would have been at that time that 

13 ! the B 

ave you the list of PR places or at least told you about 

R places where she wanted to work. 

. .-3. 

__ 

A EntireIT possible. 

Q Now, I you in fact met with Monica Lewinsky on 

.:-I; November 5th and then went and saw the President that same 

:- Iday, do ou believe that it would have been at that time that 

: : 2 ! you wou Y d have made reference to the President that you had 

: : 3: met with Monica Lewinsky and were helping her or were going 

‘I : : to help her try to get a job? 

A First of all, I have no recollection of havin 

.!ciwith Monica Lewinsky on November 5th. I do not deny I a 

met 

, on 

.:2:the other hand. Secondly, I have no recollection of what m 

.:: ; conversation on November 5th was when I was in the Wes ty 

-1::visiting with the President. 

Wing 

.~ 

!4: Q When you kt?ow in advance. and by that I mean at 

[ 5: least a day or so before, you’re going to meet_wrth the 

[ 6: President,, IS it your 

: - :calendar indicating t ! 

ractlce to have an entry in your 

at? 

19: A 

[ 41 it. 

Almost invariably. If I know it in advance, I do 

If I don’t know it In advance, if I decide to go over, 

i : 2: I’ll get invited over, I just go and its not in the 

::‘calendar. 

_: Q So d rn fact you did meet with the President but 

f: i it’s not in the calendar, is it accurate that that would at 

1-1. least usuallv mean that it was somethlna done a little more 

iii)spur of the moment. either you were coiitacted b 

Y 

him and he 

::~:wanted to meet or you decided for some reason hat you should 

r.:.go meet with him? 

i;si A That is entirely ossible. 

IL9: Q Now, let’s go a I: ead and look at VEJ-20. which once 

r:o:a 

;t 

ain I’ll represent to you, sir, is a summary that our 

;z i : o ice prepared of conversations on November 4. 1997 based 

:zz:upon telephone records obtained by the office of Independent 

[s?:Counsel through grand jury subpoenas and otherwise. Do you 

:zd;see it. sir?_ 

(‘5: A Ido 

Page 37 

[I! Q All right. Let’s talk about some of these phone 

~2 1 calls. First of all, there is a hone call,at 3:52 

[ 3 1 November 4th from your o 

[ 4 1 your inside line, correct? 

ffp ice, namely d”.,“n” that’s 

[5i A That’s correct. 

Q 

1 ti 54 seconds. 

To Betty Currie at the White House... for 

Do YOU see that? 

il6 

“7 

_ 

ii8 

!I9 

A ldo. 

Q Now that 

:i told us before that that’s 

number is it accurate that 

r vou call when vou want 

i to talk to Betty, but its also a nun 

lvou want to talk to the President. 

nbeiyou 

__ .., correct? 

might calf when 

Q And is that one of the numbers, then, Nancy 

‘1 Hemreich’s, that you would call when you’re trymg to get 

I a hold of the President? 

:switched in, or I will ca 

ht. I call the White House, ask to be 

Page 35 

Q Okay. Let me back up. When we spoke earlier, when 

:! i you were here in front of the grand jury, ou told us that at 

: I : some 

dp 

oint after you met Monica Lewrns x y you informed the 

_: 1 Pres) ent that you had met her and that you were going to try 

: 5 1 to help her get a job, correct? 

Ii’ A There’s no uestion about that. 

.-I Q 9. )me 

: z j it was that 

And, at the you couldn’t recall exactly when 

:?’ x 

ou did that, correct? 

That’s correct. 

: I z! summaries. It’s got November 4, at the top, 1 l/4/97. 

.-- 1 .--> Let me back up for a second. Are you able to tell 

:I:: us, do you have any idea what 

: I 7 1 President about on November 

ou would have spoken with the 

5 1997? 

-- ., -7: A No. 

.--. Q If we look at your calendar on November 5. 1997, 

[ 1) President, you 

Page 38 

~2 ! Nancy Hemrelc .?l 

enerally go through either Ms. Curry or 

Q Okay. Now looking at these calls you have a 

iii 54-second call or messa 

[slat 3:52 p.m. from your o w 

e’or some sort of short &II an 

ice to Betty Cunie’s number. ry 

[ 6 j you see that? 

:7’ A Ida 

Now, sir, first of all, you told us that the way it 

[ 15 1 came about that you met with Monica Lewinsky was you spoke 

I .~.. I 6 I with Bettv Currie. correct? 

[I71 *A Yes. 

Q And so you do believe that you would have spoken to 

i i”,i Betty Currie before you would have spoken to Monica Lewinsky 

tzojand set up an interview with her, correct? 

[2:) A That is correct. 

Q All right. And you notice the date on this, this 

is:iis November 4th. 

i241 A Ri ht 

[?Sl Q V$iih is th e d ay b e f ore at least the documents 

Page 33 to Page 38 OlCStarr 
I 

BSA 

1798 

Vernon Jordan, 515198 XMAX(7!7) 

Page 39 Page 42 

; : Iwe’ve shown you seem to indicate a possible meeting between 

;z]you and McAnrcaY;~,wrnsky. correct? 

i3! 

Q Now, looking at those two calls, first of all, in 

Il; light of the fact that the call from Monica Lewinsk ‘s office 

r6:to vour inside line is three minutes and 32 secon s. do vou 

17 j believe you spoke to her that day? 

rI . 

ia! A I have to assume that that is true. I have no 

rs]reason to contradict that. It’s not on my calendar. I have 

! :o I to assume that that is true. 

1111 Q And do you believe, sir, also that to the degree 

[ 12 1 that two minutes before hearing from Monica Lewinsky there 

i:?!was a call from you to Betty Currie. that you mi ht have 

114 Ispoken to Betty Currie shortly before that abou P Monrca 

;~slLewinsky? 

Cl61 A I have no basis u on which to contradict that. 

Q Well, and beyon s that IS it also accurate that you 

i 1: i are sure that prior to speaking to Monica Lewinsky you spoke 

[131to Betty Currie about her? 

[:01 A Based on this document, that is correct. 

ii??1 Q Well, let’s talk independent of the document. 

:: ‘early as the first week of November abou? .^. 

.- A Ido not 

:?: Q You told us when you were here last time that you 

: 4 : know there was a ornt late last ear when ou were speaking 

:j:wrth Mr. Bowles a P ot about whet x er he wou 7 d stay on. 

I61 A That’s correct. 

r-. Q 

13 :November? 

Do you know if that was happening as early as 

:?: A Oh, yes. 

.0- 

,--, Q Now, srr. there are two other calls on that day, 

11: :4:09 and 4:36. both of which were from your phone to Betty 

::z~Currie’s number. The first one is a 42-second call or 

::~.perhaps a message and the second one IS a mrnute and six 

: : A ‘second call. Do YOU see that? :. _; 

-3~ A Right. 

:i6: 0 First of all, does Betty Cume have a message 

! ;- : machine, to your knowledge. on her number? 

::31 A I don’t know. 

:19: Q Do ou ever have any recolhction of calling for 

I:O I her and instead of r alkrng to a person leaving a message? 

[2‘ : A Yes. I have to assume that I asked my secretary, 

rzi;one of them to lace the call. 

123: Q’ t& o 

:24:Cuti about at 4:0 

ou know what you would have spoken to Betty 

or 4:38? 

i22i 

[231 

P4i 

[?51 

A Okay. 

2 tt;;vour remembrance, sir - 

0 - that - you spoke - 

Page 40 

A As I’ve said I have no recollection of talking to 

iz’; Bettv Currie or Monica Lewinskv on November 4th. I have 

i3jabsolutely no recollection of that. 

0 Let me go back and just ask you once a ain, sir, to 

Illlet me finish my question before you answer because, P rrst of 

[ 6 1 all, it will be easier for the court reporter and, secondly, 

[7]we’ll make sure you’re answering what I’m asking. That 

[ 8 1 wasn’t my questron. 

Set aside the documents for a second. 

L-31 A 

124 1 no basis 

That’s a reasonable assumption on my part. I have 

u on which to contract that. 

!25i 8 Have you ever spoken prior to December 19. 1997, 

Page 41 

[ 1 ldid you ever speak to Monica Lewinsky about anything other 

[:: than your help in possibly findin 

!31 A At whatever time 9 

her a job? 

I 4 1 onlv basis 

spoke to Monica Lewinsky, the 

upon which any conversation that I would have had 

15 1 with her was about work. - 

161 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

17’ Q 

i e i subpoena. 

Until the dav that she called vou about the 

[91 A That’s correct. 

I131 BY MR. BIENERT: 

[III Q And that’s, just to refresh your recollection, at 

[ 12 1 least based on what we went over the last time, was December 

113119th. 

1141 A That’s correct. 

Q All right. Now if we continue down call number 3 

i:zishows a call from 

l? 

our office at 468 to the White House 

[ 17 1 Chief of SgfP s,od;ze for 54 seconds. Do you see that? 

[I31 

[I91 Q 

[ 20 1 that time or do 

Who do you believe you would have been calling at 

ou know? 

A hell if I called the office of the Chief Staff I 

i:iiwas calling Erskine’Bowles. Whether I spoke with him or’not 

1231 in that 54-sewnd period, I do not know. 

Q Now do you have any recollection of what issues, 

15:; if any, you would have been speaking to Erskine Bowles as 

A I do not. 

- 

Page 43 

0 

5 1 to Monica Lewinsk 

Does the fact that it looks like you spoke 

3land then a half an z 

approximately 15 minutes earlrer 

4: it’s like1 

our earlier make you think that 

5: Lewins 

that what you spoke to her about was Monica 

1.. 

I? v? 

i61 ’ A Ve like 

:;: 

!31 

THE FQ%EPl!RSON: Mr. Bienert? 

MR. BIENERT: Yes, ma’am? 

[91 THE FOREPERSON: 

:lg]take a break. 

It’s time for the grand jury to 

::11 MR. BIENERT: Okay. How long would you like? ‘.“j .A-_ THE FOREPERSON: Let’s take 15 minutes. 

::3: MR. BIENERT: Okay. 

: 14; break and then we’ll resume. 

Thank you, sir. A 1 bminute 

;15; THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

ti61 MR. WISENBERG: 

::T: ready to start. 

And I’ll come get you when we’re 

[:3! 

[;3! _^^. 

TH$ WITNESS: Thank you. 

rtness excused. Wrtness recalled.) 

.LU] 

:I211 MR. WISENBERG: Let the reword reflect that the 

rzzjwitness has reentered the grand jury room. 

::3j Madam Fore r-son we have a quorum, do we not? .? 

_- 4: THE FOREP!%SOk: Yes we do. 

:25j MR. WISENBERG: Are there any unauthorized persons 

Page 44 

[ 11 in the grand ‘u room? 

[?I TAETOREPERSON: No sir. There are not. 

131 Mr. Jordan, I need to remind you that you are still 

[ 4 I under oath. 

151 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Forelady. 

[6! BY MR. BIENERT: 

[~z]s.ee that? 

i131 A Mm-hmm. 

Q Now, the to 

P 

line says ‘@What a day. I met with 

Iilithe bg creep’s best friend his morning.” Frrst of all did 

! 16 1 you have any meetings with Ms. Lewinsky that were in the 

r ;T 1 morning? 

ii81 

[ 19 1 on the da 

A I have no recollection of meeting with Ms. Lewinsky 

[ 20 1 fact that I .Y 

in question. 

happened, 

I do not for one minute question the 

I just do not recalled it. 

;z 11 Otherwise, I would have told you when I was here before. I 

:X 1 have no recollection of it. 

It:ithou 

Q Yes sir. My question is a little bit different, 

h. Settin aside the date on this do you have a 

~251 rew i!. ecbon tha 9 at any time when you’met with her, whatever 

OIC-starr Page 39 to Page 44 
1799 

me* Vernon Jordan, 515198 XMAX(Ml 

‘1 ‘date it was !hat il was in the rncmtng7 

,-. A I do not know w?ether it was mornrng, noon, or 

: 3 : afternoon 

0 Did you ever wnen you met with Ms. Lewinsky. 

i: i regardless of when it would have been. after talkin to her 

i slabout the fact that - leamrn what she was interes ed In 

:-: and that you would attempt o be hel ful, did you evei say 

’ 

9 

i 3 i words to the effect to her such as & re in busrness or 

: 9 1 anything like that? 

A I told her I woula help her. Whether I used the 

;‘:lwords ‘We’re in business.” I dcn’t know. That’s not a phrase 

: I_: that I would ordinarily use excegt with a client. 

: : 3 i Ms. Lewinsky was not a client. 

:1:: Q So you can’t rule it out. but it doesn’t sound to 

.: i ‘vou like something you would normally say to someone like 

i :; j Ms. LewrnsAky. No_ 

II-. .* ‘-0. Q Now, did 

Y 

ou ever indicate to her that you had 

1 r; i spoken to President Clin on about her? 

122: A I have no recollection of whether I had said to her 

rq_ ithat I had spoken to the Presrdent. It is entire1 

;_I {that I did. but I have no recollectron of saying t Y; 

possible 

at to her, 

15;; but it is not beyond reason. 

i_‘l’ :- ~, 0 Did vou ever indrcate to her that she comes highly 

;25]recommended? _ 

Page 46 Page 49 

[Ii A I may have said that. 

i?j BY MR. LERNER: 

131 Q On the basis of what would you have said that? 

A Based on the fact that the secretary of the 

i:j President of the United States called and said held Monica 

1.s 1Lewinsky. 

‘7’ 

isi 

Cl And she said what? 

A And who said what? 

li’ Q Ms. Currie said what that made you think she was 

::li highly recommended? 

;ilj A That was enough for me. That was enough. 

1“: ,--_ Q I don’t understand. What did Ms. Currie say to 

:x:you? 

::4; A Ms. Currie called and said Monica Lewinsky is a 

: :J;White House intern or ex-White House,intem, she wants to 

: : 6: move to New York, she’s lookmg for a job in the private 

! ;:: sector, would you help her. That was enough. 

i. 9’ Q And that would constitute she comes highly 

j i i i recommended? 

i-3, 

,_. .-A‘ l_l^. 

- _ 

A If it’s from Be 

? 

Currie, it’s highly recommended. 

Q 

A 

It’s not possrb e rt came from the President? 

It is enbrely possible that through Betty Curne 

1-5 i it came and that was enough. 

;:;: Q It’s possible that the President told Betty 

: 2 5: Currie - 

Page 47 

:. 

.-. .^. 

A It is entirely ossible 

Q Did vou thm R that? .-. 

:31 

..l! 

A I think that? Yes. sure..1 do. 

Q You think that the Presrdent told Ms. Currie to 

: j ! call YOU? 

; 6 ’ A Oh, I do believe that. Yes. 

_7: Q And said what to Ms. Currie, do you think? 

r;j A Call Vernon and ask Vernon to help her. I believe 

: j 1 that. Sure. And that’s enough for me. 

, : ? / 0 But it’s your understanding that the President 

[ fy j instructed Ms. Currie to - 

::z: A I believe that. 

:::: MR. LERNER: Okay. You believe that. 

[14! BY MR. BIENERT: 

.? j] Q Lets look at the letter dated November 6th to 

f f 6 1 which is VEJ-19. We’ve already read aloud its words and jus Y 

ou 

:;7 Iskimming this over, is this something that 

I do not. I just don’t rernem t 

ou recognize? 

[:?i A er this letter. I 

;: 3; believe it and I believe that I met with her,, although I did 

[,olnot recollect it. The letter doesn’t ring a big bell wrth 

:?llme. 

1-11 Q Regardless of the date and/or actual words of this 

i_;iletter, do you have an recollection of ever 

i 24 1 essence a thank you ly etter from Ms. Lewins a 

etting in 

y thanking - 

1251 A I do not. 

r.. 

Page 48 

0 Let me fimsh. though. just for the record. Thank 

1: 1 you for meitin with her 

:3: 9 do not remember -- seerng this letter and this IS 

: ;~the first time that it’s sort of regtstered wdh me. 

[j! Q So you could have gotten it, but you have no 

! 6; specific recollection. 

[7] A I do not deny 

[ 9 1 is there and I’m fairly certain 9 

etting It. My address and my name 

hat I got it. It’s not 

[ 91 signed here, but I have no reason to say that I did not get 

l1 o 1 it. I have no recollection of It. 

111: Q Now, lets go ahead and look at Exhibit VEJ-21 and 

[:2:22, which I’m going to hand you. Ladies and 

[~~.that’s the phone summary list that has 1 l/5/9 9 

entlemen, 

on the top. 

I:)‘ A Excuse me. counsel. I was naht. Nancv 

i : 4 i Hernreich’s number IS 

116: MR. BIENERmes sir. - . 

1.7: MR. LERNER: So noted. iiai THE WITNESS: Beg pardon? 

17 0. RY MR RIFNFRT. 

Lid> _ . ,_.. . _._. ._. 

I201 Q I actually almost stopped you to point that out to 

[?I lyou, but I figured we’d wait until we got to it to confirm - 

I221 A Alzheimer’s has not totall 

Q 

set in yet. 

Okay, sir. Let’s go ahea a and look at this senes 

iz:iof calls. Now, there are ten calls reflected on this sheet 

rzsjand these are calls that are reflected at least on the same 

And that’s one of the numbers that you typically 

ti 1 call to try to speak to the President, correct? 

rsi A Sometimes. 

Q And would it be unusual for you to speak to the 

I :y i President for ten minutes? 

[I?] A No. 

Q The second call at 856 is to Nancy Hernreich’s 

i :ii number which you correctly pointed out to us is 

I ,__,__~ I Al I 202-456-6610. Correct? 

[161 A Ri ht. 

El71 MR. L&NER: If I could just interrupt, Tom. 

[1Bl BY MR. LERNER: 

[I91 Q 

if 

The first call, the talk with the President is only 

[20lstartirtj at y i ou look at the next document - you 

r?~lstarte talking o the President at 8:50! so it’s only a 

;~;;five-minute conversation with the President. 

: 

[24; 

ty MWl$~ErE~o+i talking about? 

[?5! Q Actually, the second document that you have, which 

Page 50 

111 is VEJ-23. another presidential call log, if 

[Z 1 bottom, that document appears to correla ty 

ou look at the 

e to that first call 

[ 3 1 on the summa sheet, correct? 

IZisays 145. 

A 1 does. Except here it says 8144 and here it 

[61 0 Correct. And let’s o ahead and look at VEJ-23. 

Is it accurate that what t at document appears to 

Iii indicate happened is the call was 

i! 

[ 918:45 and the call was ended at 8: s 5, but you talked to the 

laced at approximately 

[ 101 President only beginning at 8:50 over to the right? The 

f 111 reference there to ‘Ylkd ok 8:50”? 

Except I don’t know who I’m talking to. I can’t 

____.__ 

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_ 

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BSA Vernon Jordan, 515198 

___ 

XMAX(rys) 

Page 51 

1. House switchboard number and ulhmately get patched through 

:I j to the President, in the time when you’re waitm for the 

3: President to come on, is it just srlence on the p z one or is 

: :: there typicall a secretary who’s 

:Tthat war!? ‘. 

rf you go through t I! 

ot the phone and you’re 

: 51 speakin wtt e swrtchboard or how does 

__: A General1 

Y? 

you’re just holdin 

i 2 f the process of locating he President. Or, Q., because they’re in 

I It s Betty 

.3: Currie or Nancy Hemreich, they will put me on hold and you 

-::;hold. Just a minute. 

--. Q ^. A 

So it’s just holding and no noise. All right. 

--. No recorded mu%. 

Q I was oing to ask about that. Muzak. as they s 

: :: j Now, the second call 9 hat we have on here was to Nancy 

: 5. Hernreich’s number, correct? :_ _: _r;. A Yes. 

.._, 

f f 2 i correct? 

0 And that’s a six minute and 30 second call, 

.-a, A Right. 

Q And that, again, is one of the numbers that you 

;;&picall~ call wh en you’re trying to call the Presdent, 

:::;correct. 

.‘7i .--_ _ A That’s right. Or calling Nancy Hemreich or Betty 

::4;Currie. 

.^C .--I Q And then let’s skip over to calls 4, 5 and 6. 

ay 

Page 52 

:: j First of atl, let me follow up on that. Is what you’re 

::;saying, str, that sometimes when you call Betty Currie that 

: 3 1 that would also be a call to the President? 

ler is 

-..--. -__ _ _ 

-: numbs ?r because you’re not&&n -‘it, so’you-wouldn’t direct 

f f ? j them which number to call to get i? 

A 

IF, correct? 

-3’ If I’m calling the Presrdent. I don’t do it through 

: i ‘: i the secretaries because I don’t think I can keep the 

:I: 1 President of the United States waiting. I dial it myself. -^. Q Okay. Now, let’s focus on calls 4: 5 and 6 for a 

_ii i second and actual1 7; 4, 5 and 6 each of which IS a call 

-4: from 

i!s:and 

ernreich between 11:05 on the first one 

the third call, call number 6, correct? 

Page 54 

r. 

.-. Q How common IS rt that you would speak numerous 

;z:times wnn erther the President and/or - himself and his 

: 3 ! direct suoordlnates? 

[s:mind. and I am not prepared to sa 

I!: these c&s were about. 

i23j . ” A- I don’t know the answer to that. 

1241 Q Why is that? 

[25] A It’s a hypothetical. It did not happen. Had it 

Page 55 

111 happened I don’t know. I mean, I am m own man and I do 

[zlmake judgments. The President is not a Xv ays right. He is 

[31 like me and you. He’s not always right and we don’t always 

:4 1 agree. R makes for an interesting fnendshi 

1:; 

So had he called me and said ye ell I don’t want 

ou to do that,” I mean, I don’t know what I would have done 

[,I is ecause I would have had to have had some reason. If I had 

[ 9 1 been asked by Betty Currie in the first instance to help her 

[ 91 and then for some reason I got some call saying not to help 

(10 1 her, I would have had to know what that was about. 

ill! Q 

i I 7 i correct? 

And in this case, you never got such direction, 

,___.. ..~ 

!?31 A I did not. 

Q And the President never said an 

iilleither directly or indirect1 

yM 

that was inconsisten r: 

hing to you, 

with 

i .~~,, 16!vour continuma to assist s. Lewinskv. 

il’l A ‘tie did not. 

(18; BY MR. WISENBERG: 

i19! 

[zo:thanked 

~z:! helping 

[‘:I 

1’31 

0 Now, let’s go back and look at the other calls, at 

i::ileast two of the calls here. The call at 9:lO a.m. from your 

Page 53 

-. . .-/ A Mm-hmm. 

.-_ Q And they’re all fairly short calls, right? 

:3i A Mm-hmm. 

Q And then call number 7 is a call to Betty Curries 

-iI number for a minute and 30 seconds. Is that right? 

-El A Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

/ Q 

f 3 j that mornin 

Now, if in fact, sir, you met with Monica Lewinsky 

.X1 

if it turns out that that was a morning that 

3 jyou met wtt her, do you believe that it might have been in 

: i 3 lone of these calls that ou would have referenced to the 

: : : ; President that 

A 

ou spo z e with her? ..^ !t is possible. I would not den 

: t; 1 but I ,cannot tell 

it for a moment, 

: :J 1 President that I b 

ou in fact that that morning r told the 

ad met with Monica Lewinsky. It is 

: : 5 ; entirely 

f: 

ossible, however, but I cannot testify to that one 

.:;:way or t e other. 

.--: Q Now, lookin 

: I; j call number 1, call number 9 

at this series of calls here, we have 

, call number 4, 5.6 and 7, so 

::;lthat’s six se arate calls that are to the three numbers that 

:rg: might be cz led to et the President, correct? 

.--I 

:$iifrom 

A’ Tha?s right. 

Q Would t at be kind of an unusual number of calls 

Y :::lsuite. 

ou on any particular day to in essence the Presidents 

.--I A Not necessarily. 

Page 56 

1 I1 ofke to Howard Gittis at McAndrews 8 Forbes. 

12 1 that one. sir? 

Do you see 

[31 A Yes I do. 

141 Q And that’s three minutes and 12 seconds. 

isi A Right. 

Q And then we have a call at 2:47 to Barbara Neysmith 

It; at American Express, a two-minute call. 

rslsir? 

Do you see that, 

A Ido. 

(181 A 

Q 

She has her own separate line. 

When you see that number, does that tell you in 

l:ijyour own mind one way 

12 11 mvolved in the call? 

or the other whether you were even 

A It is possible that it was Gayle talking with 

i::lMs. Neysmith. Ms. Neysmith is the corporate den mother at 

[z.t]American Express. She makes room reservations, she ets 

[z5]cars, she gets airplanes. She takes care of the board o P 

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1801 

Vernon Jordan, 515198 

Page 57 

:: ‘directors. And she and Gayle are constantly negotiatin 

;: : schedules and Barbara Neysmrth does that wda every 3 rrector 

.3. of Amencan Exoress. 

smAh because 

That is correct. 

And I guess my question would be, and this one here 

!33 : is just as an example, but I’ll re resent to you and we’ll 

[33 1 see it, there are several times s. 

. o along after the time at which 

unng that we’ll see as we 

$i;& 

ou had been s 

s Lewmsky and had made a 

dy raking to 

euston to help er get a job 

I L 1 that you did speak with Mr. Gittis. And the question I have 

Page 58 

i 2; for you is why wouldn’t you mention it to him when you were 

i 3 1 speaking to him about other things anyway? Is there any 

[ 4 I particular reason? 

A No, there isn’t. The first person that I called at 

ii;Revlon about Monica Lewinsky’s em 

.loyment was Richard Halperin. P 

loyment or potential 

;;i;fh; 

P 

think I have testified to 

.-. 

L91 Q Correct. 

;19; A And Richard Hal 

i I 1; contacted and I did not talk to 8 

erin was the person that I first 

oward Gittis about this 

[l_‘j until, I think, some time in January. 

;13: Q And I’m just t ing to explore if there’s any 

[ 14: reason why would choose no r to do that. Is he too high 

: :sj level? Is he in a different section? What would be the 

[ 16 I reason wh you believe it would be - why you wouldn’t 

;;;:mentron it !o him? 

A I can’t answer that. When I did do something about 

[I Gj Monica Lewinsky, I called Richard Halperin. And there’s no 

:3c.! reason not to have called Howard Gittis except that based on 

:z::my judgment, Richard Halperin was the best person to handle 

:zr:that. 

:23: Q Who’s higher ranking in McAndrews 8 Forbes, to your 

: 1; ‘knowledge? Mr. Gittis or Mr. Halperin? 

.1c. _--. A There was no question but that Mr. Gittis is 

Page 59 

!:: higher ranking, he’s older, he’s a closer friend. And 

[ 2: Mr. Halperin IS an aide to the chairman and, in fact, I 

r3:think I explained that. 

[41 I would also add to that that Howard Gittis is vice 

[ 5: chairman of the board of McAndrews 8 Forbes. He was Mr. 

i 6; Perelman’s lawyer. He is my friend. He is m dtent. And I 

171am a member of the Revlon board and there r ore what this call 

I 3. is about I haven’t the sliahtest idea. I’m fairlv certain it 

[ 9! was not about Monica Lgwinsky. 

(10; Q 

i: i ; I’ll re 

And is it fair to say, and I think we’ll see, 

: iZ :Mr. 6 

resent to you we’ll see in the phone records that 

rttis is one of if not the person at McAndrews 8 Forbes 

; 13 ithat you talk with most regularly. 

;14j A That is correct. 

!15! Q Now, if we’ll go ahead and we’ll look, also in 

[16! relation to November 5th. the date we’re talkin about - 

[I? Iwell. strike that. I think we’ve already review Jit. We 

[ 19 : had Exhibit 22, which is the WAVE record indicating that you 

rlslwere tn fact at the White House at 2:00 that day. 

[?O: A Right. .I? T L-ii BY MR. LERNER: 

[?3: Q 

i 2 3 1 Lewinsky? 

Did you ever talk to Nancy Hemreich about Monica 

:24: A No. 

[15] 0 Why would you be calling Nancy Hernreich four times 

Page 60 

_. In one day? 

A I haven’t the sltghtest idea It could have been 

I schedule. it could have been something about a social event, 

G. It could have been a questron. I cannor tell you. I have 

I never talked to her about Monrca Lewlnsky. 

.: BY MR. WISENBERG: 

0 

= -exact trme 

If you came to the VVhrte House, I don’t know the 

.I on the WAVE record - 

:. 

MR. BIENERT: Two o’cloac. 

.-- THE WITNESS: It could have been about that. 

_-- BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q 

A 

The ones before two cou!d have been set up. 

It could have been about that, 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

:1; Q And, In fact, based on the fact that your calendar 

-. .-- ;. does not show at least a pre-set meeting at the White House 

: :-.that day. does it make you think that It’s more likely that 

.-.. : rf in fact you went to the White House on November 5th you 

.--. :.would have had some calls to make sure it was all set up? 

.-- A And I don’t know who WAVE’d me in. I do not, as I 

: I : indicated in my testimony, I do not have a White House pass 

::I-and so when I go, I have to be WAVE’d in like any other 

:rr:person. - 

.- . . .-1. Q 

:: 5 : Exhibit 22, 

And, actual 

it has the WAV I? 

on that pornt, just if you look at 

record for when you went to the 

:: -White House. It has a column that says requestor and It says 

: I -Cameron. Do ou know who that person IS. 

Page 61 

A /don’t have an idea who that is. 

_1 BY MR. WISENBE;IG: 

Q 

: i j Ms. Hemreich? 

Is there a Rebecca Cameron who works for 

A Rebecca does work for - Rebecca. Yes. Rebecca - 

i I ‘if Ms. Hemreich or Ms. Currie do not answer the telephone. 

: 3 -Rebecca answers the telephone. I just didn’t know her last 

.- --n9mp 

____..I.I.b. 

.-- BY MR. BIENERT: 

.-- Q And so Rebecca is one of the other persons who’s in 

: : I -the suite ri ht outside the Oval Dffice 

II w That’s riaht. Or some olace else where she answers 

: : I : their phone. 

.-- BY MR. LERNER: 

0 Just so I understand, wh 

i :: : the President, sometimes you’d call e 

n you’re trying to reach 

and sometimes you’d 

: :?. call Nancy Hernreich and sometimes you’d call Betty Curne. 

:z I Is there any method why you’d choose one as opposed to 

.:: -another? :__. 

.--. A No. 

0 But when you make a direct call on your 4260, you 

ifi usually dial-? 

,-: 

.-- A Or I’ll dial 

Page 62 

‘--to the person or - 

-;- _-. 

.: 

. . _. 

A I asked her to make a call. 

Q And then you Pick UP and talk to the person. 

.--. A That is correct: 

. . . 

t--. 0 And a last question, kind of far afield, do you 

[ 1:. know a man named Lou Rudin? 

,.~. 

.--. A 

(1;: Q 

Oh, yes. I know Lou Rudin. 

Who is he? I. =. 

.--., A Lou Rudin is a prominent real estate executive 

:_c - - In New York City. He runs an organizatron called A Better 

: :- : New York, inau urated 

: : 3 : I’ve spoken to t z e 

10, 15 ears a o with breakfasts, 

breakfasts. 

: : :: him for a very long time. He’s a olfer. .^^. 

,--_ Q 

his a #end. I ve known 

:;: : someone that 

Have you ever as ed him to help out, try to help 

.^_. A %ly daughter. 

ou know find an apartment in New York City? 

_--. 

--:- 

,--, Q Anyone else besides your daughter? 

;r;- A 

._:. 

.--. Q 

I thank my daughter is the only one. 

Have you ever said to someone “I’ll talk to a man 

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0% Vernon Jordan, 515190 XMAU,,,,,, 

Page 63 Page 66 

: :. named Lou Rudin and help you find an apartment in New York 

;I I know it’s tou h to find an apartment In New York, I know 

.3. someone. a c B ose friend of mane, who can helo vou out.” 

1;: A I have not -the last call I made fo Lou Rudin, 

: 5 j I remember it so well, I called him up and he said! 

r;:“Jordan. you only call me when 

And I said, ‘Why should I L 

ou want somethtng.” 

r-T 

iian bod 

any different from 

r5:to L ew \ 

else?” And m dau hter was etting married, moving 

ork, and Lou d.?.- udrn acrlrtated w at for her. 

113: 0 So you never placed a phone call to Mr. Rudin about 

: : 1: Monica Le;ins:x. 

[:?: 

Q 

ave no recollection of having done that. 

;13: But you might have? 

;:q: A I might have. 

[:5: Q You mi 

r16:‘There’s this woman, s 3, 

ht have placed a call to Mr. Rudin and said, 

e’s moving to New York City, she’s 

[I-:getting a job and she’s going to need help finding an 

1 I?: apartment.” 

A I ma have done that. I have no recollection of 

iiziit. My best recolle x. ion of the last time that I called Lou 

~31~ Rudin was about an apartment for my daughter Janice, 

i-1:; Q And when was that? 

t23: A 

Q 

Janice has been married two years, two ears a o. 

? : But you might have placed a hone call o Mr. udrn 

izz;in the past few months about Monica 

r Fi, 

Lewins R y? 

:,sector That’s not Bob Nash’s forte. He’s the 

erson for the White House, so I don’t know w 

[is; A Yes. . 

:111 0 Did she ever indicate to you that she was concerned 

I :z: about what kind of a reference she might get from the Whrte 

t13.House if one of these prospectwe emolovers like Revlon or 

r~d:Amencan Express were to’contact the WhRe House and ask 

: LSJ about her? 

[1E: A I don’t know that we talked about references 

;I?: because in terms of m 

r:e:them for her. I mean. r 

business, I mean, I drdn’t need 

thought that m call was enough 

:Is;and d turned out that It was. So I don @r 

[ 20 I recollection of my 

have any 

[:1lfor Monica Lewins & 

etting into the reference business 

y. 

il?] Q Andis it accurate, then, sir, that in terms of 

[z3]any conversations you would have had wrth Bob Nash that you 

r:s;don’t believe that you spoke to him about Monica Lewinsky. 

1: 5 I but you can’t 100 percent preclude it? 

Page 64 

111 A 

: 2 : possible. 

If I did, I don’t recollect. It is entirely 

I3i BY MR. BIENERT: 

I4i Q 

hone call, do 

And regardless of whether you actual1 placed the 

[51 

X. z 

r 

16) onrca Lewins 

ou belteve that you might have indica ed to 

y that you would either consider or think about 

~7 1 or maybe try to place a T hone 

[ 3 ! apartment in New York 

call to him to help her get an 

[9! A I may have volunteered that. Yes. 

[lCl BY MR. LERNER: 

Q Would it have been on our initiative? Would 

iii jsomeone have asked K 

! :j 1 apartment? Or woul d 

ou. “Could you elp this woman find an 

;;;; to Ms. LewAnski? 

you have volunteered it when you spoke 

o one asked me to find her an apartment and if in 

[ i 6 1 fact I made a call to Lou Rudin about an apartment for 

[ 17: Ms. Lewinsky, it would have had to do with her, not anybody 

[19:else. 

. . 

[14: BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q Okay. Now we’re oing to direct our attention to 

1:: j the timeframe of October 25th to 9 7th - 

::Z‘ A October? 

;23: 

i?:iof lookin 

Q November. I apologize, sir. And just for purposes 

~~5:through t 3, 

at our calendars, that would be the Tuesday 

e 27th. basically Thanksgiving Day, so Tuesday, 

Page 65 

:: ; Wednesday,, Thursday of Thanksgivin week. Oka 

I;; ahead - we II go ahead ,and g,rve you 2.. 2 

If you go 

xhrbrt24, V J-24. 

! 4; this out of 

And if its all right wdh you, srr, I II just move 

our way so we don’t get them confused. 

15: x Thank you. 

16; 0 And, ladies and gentlemen, that would be the phone 

sheet that at the top has 1 l/25/97. It actuall has 

s’ worth on there. But if we look at t K at 

under the headino 11/25/97. we have three 

rlo~calls summarized, based upon phorie records.’ 

I ii 1 office to Executive Office Bob Nash for four minutes and 24 

And the first call IS a call at 858 a.m. from your 

[ : 3 1 seconds. p yoMtrns;$& sir? 

11 d‘ 

L- ., 

[15j 

LIEI 

t17; 

a First of all. you know Bob Nash, correct? 

A Very well. 

Q What sort of matters do YOU talk to Bob Nash about. 

[ I 3 1 in general? 

!151 A Personnel. 

[?Oj Q And, in fact, he’s the person who’s in charge of 

I 2 I I personnel at the White House? 

[Z::. A That is correct. 

0 Do you believe that you ever might have spoken with 

/s:jMr. Nash about Monica Lewrnsky? 

125: A Monica Lewinsky was looking for work in the private 

OlCStarr 

Page 67 

A 

IilMonica Lewinsky specificall 

I have no recollection of talking to him about 

~31 have. That is not to say tha r 

and I don’t know why I would 

[ 4 1 with him. 

I did not have a conversation 

[51 Q Now, if we look at the next two calls on that date, 

[ 6 1 there are two calls at 950 a.m.. Monica Lewinsky’s office, 

171 her Pentagon office number, to the Aiken Gump general phone 

iii!number. .., ~_ 

[9! A Mm-hmm. 

Q And then at 952. a second call, and this one is 

Iiy;for three minutes. 

I121 A Mm-hmm. 

:13; Q So a one-minute call and then a three-minute call. 

: 14 I Do you know whether or not Monica Lewinskv. to vour 

::51 knowledge, was speaking to any other attorneys 01 anyone else 

[ I 6 J at Aiken Gump than yourself? 

1171 A 

r1slexcept me. 

I have no knowledge that she was speaking to anyone 

!19! Q And looking at the second call, which is a 

[3o!three-minute call, at least a little Ion 

r21:that you spoke to Monica Lewinsky 9 er, do you believe 

[I??] A I do not know. 

[33’ Q If you had spoken to her in that timeframe, what do 

!:~;You believe it would have been about? izsj- A About her getting a job. 

Page 68 

II! Q Now, as of this date, and now we’re u to late 

r~;November, even if B 

~3 I and talked to her, dy 

ou had met with her already, ha met 

o you believe that you took any action 

[ 4 1 as of. that time in terms of talking to anyone about 

[6!&pes in Newaork. 

[5: ossrbly hirin her? By that I mean corporate America 

A I don’t think that I had. By the same token if 

Ii 1 Idon’t remember having met with her on November 5th which I 

[ 9 1 repeat to you I have no recollection of, but I do not here’ 

[ IO 1 agam deny that I did, I don’t remember and I may have a note 

[ 11 Ihere saying when I first called Haloerin. I first called 

[ 12 I Halperiri. aiirdin to my time line on December 11 th. 

[I31 Q 

[ 14 lit durin 

An8 you know what’l’m going to do I’ll try to do 

the lunch break, because ou’re correct, we 

r151definitey 9 have a phone record of & cember 11 th and one thin 

[ 161we mtght want to do in the break is look back in November an 

[ 17 I see If we see any earlier calls and, if so, we’ll certainly 

8 

[lelshow you those. 

[I91 A Fine. 

[201 Q And we can talk about it. 

[211 A Fine. 

Q 

If:iseries of calls on 1 l/26 which - 

But let’s go ahead, then, and look at the next 

[241 MR. WISENBERG: Can I interrupt for just a second? 

[?51 MR. BIENERT: Sure. 

Page 63 to Page 68 
1803 

Vernon Jordan. 515196 xMAxIlY12I 

Page 69 

::: BY MR. WISENBERG: 

,^. Q I’ll reference the rand jury to the bottom Of 

,4%. 

i;: age 52 in the cnron, it’s not on 9 he summary sheet, but, 

r Jordan, we have an indication that on Nov 

i518:31 a.m. there’s a call from your office, your & 

e;u22;\;t 

[ 6 i to David Kendall that lasted a minute and 54 seconds. Do ‘you 

: 7: have any recollection of what that would be about? 

!91 A My suspicion, that it was about the football ame 

r 31 that took olace the weekend before between Wabash and B ePauw 

: :a j Universrt);. 

I.31 0 And you had talked to us about that last time, I 

.&-%u ‘bv Mrl Bienert, but 

Ii&~ fiol$.;ob.Weirier? 

leads me to my next question. There 

‘the two presidential attorneys shortly after one another and 

i:: I guess my question IS do you have any - does the fact that 

: 3 : those two calls are ri 

have %, 

ht by each other, does it make you 

;; : thank you mrght en speakrng to either of them about 

[ 5: anythrng related to the Prestdent? 

!6‘ A It could have been related to the President. It 

p-i had nothin 

1s; ?l 

to do with Monica Lewrnsky. 

To the degree that you would be speaking to Bob 

[ 3: Bennett and David Kendall about something related to the 

:: 3: President, what would be the general subject matter? I. 1. A It’s atways been my jud 

1 ii j before, that I constantly suggested to i 

ment. and I told you this 

ennett that the Paula 

::?: Jones case should have been settled. 

Q So it’s posrrble that you had spoken to those 

ii! i attorneys or were trying to speak to them at that time on 

: : 6 \ somethrng related to the Paula Jones case. 

.>-1 .* , A It’s possble. It’s possrble. 

r: Jj Q But whatever it had to do with, if it had to do 

i:g!with the Paula Jones case, in your mind it certainly had 

~20 i nothing to do with Monrca Lewrnsky. 

A Yes. But I doubt that I would have been talking to 

igf j David Kendall about the Paula Jones case. He does not 

j? 3 1 represent the President on the Paula Jones case. 

(241 Q An 

rzslbeen the topic, if t Xt 

hing else that you can think of that might have 

ere was a topic that was common to both? 

Page 70 

!141 A No. 

!??I; MR. WISENBERG: Okay. Pardon me for interrupting 

I161 BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q And I’ll throw something out to 

f ii! extension do you use when you want to call C X 

ou. What 

eryl Mills? 

119; A -6611. 

i?“, 

is;;for - 

Q Okav. So vou do dial an individual extension 

, - 

;IZz: A 

Q 

For Cheryl Mills. That’s right. 

Mr. Wisenber brin s up a point that I failed to 

ii: i mention on the last documen 9 whrc .!I- IS VEJ-21. And, ladies 

iS5iand gentlemen. that’s the call list from November 5th again. 

Page 73 

[II A I cannot. 

Q All ri 

j:iwhich is VEJ-24 an 8 

ht. Let’s o backto the next sheet, 

we’re loo ;1. jng now at the series of 

[4jcalls on November 26th. There is a lo:32 a.m. call, I’ll 

15 1 represent to you from Bernard Lewrnsky’s residence,, which IS 

[ 6 1 where Monica Lewinsk 

I 7 I is a California area cody 

stays when she’s in California, and 310 

e. to Bettv Cume at the White 

i 8; House. 

A short time later there is a 30-second call - 

r ;,‘I not a short time later. several hours later. at 263. there 

i 11 j is-a 30-second call from your office, your secretary’s office 

: :z 1 number, to Betty Cume’s number, and then about 15 minutes 

[I; J later, there is a page, I’ll represent to ou. on Monica 

: 14 1 Lewrnsk ‘s ager with a message tha 

r:siVernon YS or an, Bettv Currie.” 

r says, “Please call 

at that senes of calls and then 

I cannot. And as I look at call number 2. the 

i22 12:53 call,, that’s a 30-second call from Gayle’s office to 

1231Ms. Curries oftice. I don’t have any idea what that was 

1~4 jabout. 

iZ51 0 Do you ever have any recollection of either 

Page 71 

jilThe last two calls there, one of them is to Bob Bennett and 

i? I one of them is to David Kendall. Is that right? .- 

!31 A Yes. 

Q Now, both of those are attorneys who represent the 

1 z 1 President in his rsonal capacity, correct? 

;76; 

A Ti%s right. 

Q Were you aware back at that timeframe in November 

: B 1 of last year that they were both attorneys representing the 

I 91 President? 

A Yes. 

Q Why would you have been calling those two men in 

i 12 j that timeframe? _ _ 

I :: 1 friends. 

A Well, first of all. we’re fellow lawyers and we’re 

The first time that I had a conversation with Bob 

115 1 Bennett about the Monica Lewinsky circumstance was when he 

1 I6 1 came to my office, I believe, on - we talked about it once 

t17lbefore. 

r191 Q January 22nd somewhere in that timeframe? 

[I91 A 

Q 

That’s nght. fhat’s right. 

Well, I uess my question is - because I remember Ig Pi you told us last time a 8 out how, for example, Mr. Kendall, 

[X 1 you talk about s orting events because you uys are friends 

[ 2 3 1 and college riva P- nes and the thing that I wou ? d point out to 

1241 ou that just makes, in my mind, it worthy of askrng IS just 

1251 r he tuxtaposition of the fact that there are the two calls to 

Page 74 

I211 BY MR. LERNER: 

[??I Q 

[23]the urgen 

Any idea why there would be a page? I mean, why 

do you think? 

[241 

jZ51 

CAr, I didn’t do the age. 

Q Right. Well, &s. Currie did the page. Any sense 

-6sPage 74 otcstarr 
1804 

Vernon Jordan, 515198 XMAX(lW31 

Page 75 

why she would have the ur enc to cage? 

._ A 

: 0 

I don’t have?he s\ghzsj Idea. 

Any recollection o a ca!l fmm ,Ms. Lewjnsky 

i ; j from California”? 

-between 397 and 4:39 in which she saps, HI, I m calkng 

Does that ring a bei. 

._. A 

;;iCalrfomia. 

I don’t recollect ever raving talked to her from 

:. Q 

:’ A I do not remember% k.nq io ber from’Cakfomia. 

So are you denyin r! or you ust don t recall’ 

.. ’ : I’m not denying anything, I just don’: a&ember talking to 

f: i : her from California. 

.--_ BY MR. BIENERT: 

.- :- Q Now, if we look at the next call, 4:39, from your 

i : i :office to the general switchboard or White House operator. 

:J j whrch again IS a line that ou use freouently when you’re 

-. C. tryrng to get the Presiden r .--. , correct? is that yes? 

A Mm-hmm. .- Q And that’s a one minZe and 36 second call. If in 

f ! j i fact you spoke with Monica Lewinsky. if she did page you that 

-:;.day. do you believe that you would have thereafter conveyed 

: 2: : in essence a status report to the President? ._^. A No. There was not a day-today reporting by me 

:‘;:the President about Monica Lewinsky’s job search. Keep in 

is; f mind I had not called Hal rin yet. 

._~. 

_--, I mean, I don’t R” now where I am yet, I think I’m 

1 

to 

Page 76 

:: :t 

x 

ing to figure all of this out and trying to figure. out 

:: : w ere I’m going to 

1;: have any sense tha 9 Monrca Lewrnsky calls me and then I call 

o and how I’m gotng to do It, so I don’t 

::. the Presrdent. It was clear that I was orng to hel 

: 5 i I didn’t need any encouragement and 9. s 

her and 

drdn’t nee any help to 

: 6: help her. 

.-. Q Is it fair to say that back in November getting 

‘s:Monica Lewinsky a job on any fast pace was not any priority 

:jlOfyOUIS? _ _ 

-. .~ 

.--_ A I think that’s fair to say. 

0 Now, let’s look at this !ast call which is on this 

itfipage, 11127197. 11:46 a.m. - 

.--_ MR. LERNER: And Mr. Jordan should look at the next 

: : ; : document also. 

MR. BIENERT: 

: I Z i presidential log. 

Okay. Yes. The one we gave you. the 

.- MR. LERNER: Actually. we haven’t given it to hrm. 

--> BY MR. BIENERT: 

.-j- Q 

i I; i about that. 

That would help. We’ll call it VEJ-25. Sorry 

._. And if you would look at that. sir, it is a White 

i I! i House presidentral call log indicating an 11:46 call on 

:I?-Thanksgivin Day, Mr. Vernon Jordan at our office number and 

::;:then it says 4r alked with LCDR Stowe. 1 r :4&T.” Do you know 

:I E : what that s about and who that is? 

Page 78 

: leading up untrl those days, Mr. Jordan, so basically we’re 

i I. lookin 

:3:so loo a 

up until the trmeframe of the first week of December. 

rng at - 

:;: A So where are we now? 

.-. Q We’re going to talk about early December. 

,;I 

.-. A Oka 

Q Andyso we mi ht want to .ust look at your calendar 

ijjof. say, D;emg;l,through B ecember 6 th. 

.cr‘ .-. 

. . ^~ Q AndYlooking at our calendar for reference points. 

i : y i December 6th was a Saturday, so December 1 through 6 would be 

: :z: the Monda through Saturday rior to that. 

-. Al That’s correct. Light. I know why I was in my 

i :I j office on Thanksgrvrng Day. I was In my office on 

::s]Thanksgivrng Day because the next day I went to China. 

.- _ ‘: t Q 

1: - j leave town. 

You were taking care of some business so you could 

:;s; A Trying to leave work for the secretanes or 

::s:somebody to do. But that’s why I was there, to answer your 

;:z:question. It’s not unconstitutional, you know, to be in the 

: 2: 1 office on Thanks ivin 

:-^: MR. Lt!RNi%R: 

Day. 

I’m well aware of that. 

MR. BIENERT: It should be. 

MR. LERNER: That’s the Eighth Amendment, isn? rt? 

Page 79 

:I; BY MR. BIENERT: 

;?j Q All ri 

131 WAVE record refle c? 

ht. I’m looking.for Exhibit 6. which is the 

rng Ms. Lewinsky’s entry into the White 

I 4 1 House, but let me - well, let me just make a representation 

:5!to you, Mr. Jordan, and then we can find it. 

161 I’ll represent to you, sir, that on Saturday, the 

17 ;6th,, the WAVE records indicate that Ms. Lewinsky went to the 

! a IWhrte House - here it is in fact - 

191 A Saturday the 6th of December? 

Q Yes, sir. 

The record itself doesn’t 

::z 1 West Wing of the White ouse during that time. 

:231 A Mm-hmm. 

;?Jj Q I’ll further represent - 

::5; MR. WISENBERG: Pardon me for interrupting. 

Page 77 

. 

.-_ A What is LCDR Stowe? 

0 I’m oin to venture a guess that it’s Lieutenant 

I < f Commander, but I % on ? know. 

I must say I’m impressed, Mr. Jordan. So you were 

f f; j at work on Thanks at 11:46? 

. . . . _-*, A 

iving Da 

Q 

Tha % s possrbe. .Y 

.. :1 

i:iiDay? 

Any idea why you would be at work on Thanksgiving 

.._. A You know, I’m a lawyer. I have a lot to do. I 

f f 3 f travel a lot. I’ve been 

MR. BIENEWT: 

one. So I go to my office. 

3: Okay. I think that brings up to the 

.: 2 1 end of November. Any questions, Mr. Wise&erg or Mr. Lemer? 

.--. 

.--_ $!?fZiZpiZ&~~~: 

.-:‘ 

i!; iof all. if 

Q All right. Lets start lcoking at December. First 

ou 

::s:Exhrbrt 6: 

go back and we look at - let’s find it - 

and you might want to look at your calendar 

Page 80 

[I! For the grand jury, that’s reference 55, page 55 on 

r?lthe chron. 

LiZI Q On what date? 

A 

I::lfrom Chica 

On December 4th. On Thursday, December 4th. I cam 

I:z;Frida 

r.? 

o. I flew from China to Chicago. 

And now we look at December 5th, which is the 

cl71 Field. ? Is t at In Houston? f: 

it a pears that you flew from Dulles to - what, Love 

llB1 A That’s in Houston. 

i15i Cl Dallas? 

:101 A Dallas. Right. 

Q Somewhere in Texas. And then you returned back 

I : : i from Texas or out of state when? 

A According to this at 7:30 p.m. I went down at 

i: 2 17:OO in the mornin 

~zslprivate aircraft to 8 

by private aircraft and returned by 

ulles at 7:30 p.m. 

olcstarr Page 75 to Page 80 
1805 

3sA Vernon Jordan, 515198 

Page 81 

C! And then I’m lookln at your entries for December 

:!,6th. which IS the Saturday that the s resrdent met with 

.i : Ms. Lewinsk 

-;:corroborate dy 

at least accordmg to her telephone call 

by WAVE records. and It indicates that you 

:5:were on a Delta shuttle on the 6th. is that n ht? 

: 6, j A 

Q 

I took the DeRa shuttle at 51% p.m. to New York. 

And then you came back at lo:30 a.m. on Sunday, 

:?3! MR. BIENERT: All ht. 

.,. 1 _A] MR. WISENBERG: Tan I ask a question? .^). .--! MR. BIENERT: Yes. 

:z31 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Do you remember what you did, whether or not you 

ii:idid anything special on the day of Saturday, the 6th. leading 

Page 82 

: 11 up to your leaving? 

-7: A Yes. I had lunch at the British embass with my 

.;jwife. the ambassador and a friend of mine, Sir Ronal dy Greason 

; 4 1 of London. 

:51 Q Now, if we go back to the - let me get my correct 

,6jfolder here. I’m oin to hand ou another WAVE record and 

;:lthis one we’ll cal 

’ ’ ” c? 

VE -27 and t IS I’ll re resent to ou is 

18 1 a WAVE record indicating you’re in an out of the White 

:s]House. 

- . 

There’s an entry here indicating that on December 

i?i7th at 5:00 

P 

.m. you went to the White House and visited 

:z 1 POTUS or he President. correct? 

13: A 

Q 

According to the WAVE record, es. 

I41 Okay. And do you believe that r he WAVE record is 

So to the degree you went to the White House that 

:< i day, that would have been another one of these situations 

.:4; where your goin 

:slplanned out In a % 

there tame u more last minute than being 

Vance. wrre 8 ? 

Page 83 

. . 1 .-I A I would think so. 

-_I: Q Now, I’ll also represent to you, sir, that on 

j 5 j Friday, December 5th. before you got back in town, or set 

:; i aside where you were at the time because I don’t want to 

.s 1 misstate where you were at that time, but on late afternoon 

‘6 1 of Fnday. December 5th. is when the attorneys for Paula 

‘71 Jones faxed to Bob Bennett a copy of their wetness list which 

‘3 1 contained among others the name Monica Lewinsky and it was an 

i 41 itemization of purported witnesses in the Paula Jones case. 

::olAnd that the fax records Indicate it was received Friday 

111 afternoon b Bob Bennett’s law firm. 

.._)I Ny ow, sir, do you have an inde endent recollection 

: I; i of what you would have spoken wrt -X the 6 resrdent about on 

: : 4 ! December 7th when you went to the White House and met with 

::slhim? 

A I don’t know why I was there or what it was about. 

i i7”i I am fairly certain it was not about Monica Lewinsky. Your 

: : 3 1 statement about the witness list in the Paula Jones case 

:: 51 being faxed on the Friday before, I don’t know anything about 

-201 that. 

:I?] 0 Well, let’s set aside Monica Lewinsk for a second 

‘~21 because I think you see where I’m going at least WII the 

-:3lquestion. 

::41 A 

::51 Q 

No, I don’t know where you’re goin 

Well. at least the question will rela ? e to the 

Page 81 to Page 86 

Page 64 

: :-wdness (1st and what I wanted to ask yc- *as do you belreve 

: 1. that the Presraent would have made any s*atement to you 

: 2. dunng mat meetrn 

..Monca Lewrnsky. 

on December 7th. nc: necessarily about 

.: % ut about the Paula Jc-es case,, the fact 

=. that mere was a witness list or that there uas actrvrty In 

f _ relaticn to that case? 

A Don’t think so. 

-3 Q Why not? 

.i A My discussions about the Paula Jones case with the 

c<!‘Prestient almost 100 oercent were aboi;: mv rudament that the 

;z: :administration, than in the first, but how many times I 

[?s:visited - I mean, at best, its an estimate. It always 

Page 85 

[ 1: depended upon what was on my mind. what was on the 

i-1 Presidents mind, or what was on somebody else’s mind. 

[ 3 :That’s number one. Number two, not every time that I went to 

,4-the Whde House did I ao to see the Presdent. Oftentimes I 

rs:did. 

:;‘ L __ 0 Now, to the degree that we talked about this the 

: 7: last time you appeared before the grand jury. you were doing 

! 5 .the best you could to sive us as accurate answers as YOU 

:3:wuld. w-rrect? - 

r::: 

:.. 

A Sure. 

Q 

IfI ’ Exhibrt 27 which pu 

All right. Wet!. dkectinc&$;~;;;~wing 

orts to rndrcate 

!:?:yourentryrntothe#’ bite House, at least based on this 

[I: : document, there is the entry on November 5th, which we 

;:5:discussed. 

i:;: A Right. 

r.-. Q There’s the entry on December 7th. which we’re 

i I? j talking about now. And then at least according to this 

[:g:document there are two other entries in December, one to see 

12 3 : the Vice President and then one to see the President on the 

[_-::19th. correct? 

j-2: A 

jz::President. 

I don’t know about an entry to see the Vice 

What are you talking about? 

Q Do ou see the second-to-the-last entry, December 

lgli 17, 1997, it says V ): OTUS? 

L:: 

Page 86 

A Oh, yes. Sure. 

I-. Q And do you believe that would stand for Vice 

1: 1 President of the United States? 

14: A I think that’s ri ht. 

!5. Q And it shows w at the meeting would be at the Old 

! 6 i Executive Office Building, OEOB? 

:7‘ A 

[ 3 i something. 

I think that was a swearing In ceremony or 

Q Oka 

t:lihas the name POT I3 

And then it shows one other entry there that 

S and that’s on December 19th. 

111‘ .~~. A Mm-hmm. 

(12: Q And, as you’ll recall, ou testified to us last 

[ 13 1 time that you believe 

r 

ou did go by t !l e White House on 

[I 4 : December 19th. Tha was after an evenrng - 

[15; A That was a Friday night. 

[i6: Q Yes, sir. 

[I71 A Absolutely. 

[Ia; Q Okay. So then at least based on these records. 

[~s:the degree that they’re accurate, the - 

j10; A 

0 

I concede that they’re accurate. 

Okay. Then based on these records ou would 

i::: only seen the President three times, at least at the WXite 

(23:House, tor(isit ftet: in the latter part of last year. 

t24: 

t25: Q And what I’m trying to do is just see if we can 

to 

have 

OlCStarr 
1806 

BSA Vernon Jordan, 515198 

Page 87 

-: bracket what you beeve you would have spoken wrth him about 

.: .on December 7th on one of the three visits you had wtth him 

7 : at the White House In the latter part of last year. What 

: i j issues do you have a recollection of speaking with the 

1: : Presrdent about at the White House? 

ou VEJ-29 30 and 31. - - ‘. :‘ MR. WISENBERG: Ywant to correct the record, I 

1 E f j think - just for the record, I think you had mentioned. 

::::Mr. Bienert, the three meetings during this,penod and I 

1::: think you made a reference to - or three wsds to the White 

-23’House and I think you made a reference to December 5th and I 

i:;ithink based on - _ 

::5: MR. BIENERT: I meant November 5th 

Page 88 

_-_ MR. WISENBERG: You meant November 5th. .^. 

_-_ MR. BIENERT: Correct. 

.:‘ MR. LERNER: 

i 1: December 19th. 

November 5th, December 7th and 

/=. 

_-. MR. WISENBERG: Okay. Fine. 

-. MR. BIENERT: Those are referenced in Exhibit 27. 

._. MR. WISENBERG: I iust wanted to make that ip: 

.:: 

_-_ r. _. 

.--_ 

,. 

.--_ 

,._. 

,--. ..:. 

,--_ 

. . . 

_-3 

.._. 

.-- 

; 

_--. 

,._. 

_- 

. . . . 

.- 

correction for the record. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q That’s fine. And I want to make sure - I know 

have it in the exhibits that Mr. Jordan had at the time. 

Okay. Thank you for the clarification. 

Now, sir. let’s go ahead and look at the documents 

relating to December 8th. If you took ,at that, at IO:28 a.m. 

there’s a phone call from Monica Lewtnsky’s office to your 

general office number for two minutes. 

A Right. 

Q Do vou see that? 

t--_ A Yes: .^.. 0 And I believe you testified to us last time about 

i!: f this, that you believe 

:z: a meeting that would r ater happen on the 11 t 

ou did talk to her briefl 

i 

to set up 

‘-7‘ A Yes. On December 8th, I left at 990 a.m. to fly 

j f 1: to Stamford, Connecticut for a board meeting of the Xerox 

: I 5 Corporation. 

we 

Page 89 

_- Cl Okay. So you weren’t there. .^. A So a lo:29 a.m. call on the 8th from Monica 

i! j Lewinsky’s office to my office undoubted1 

:;. at the Xerox board meetin in Stamford, E 

happened. I was 

onnecticut. 

,_: 

1 z EMS. 

0 Okay. An c? 

Lewinsk 

to the degree that at some point 

6 

was scheduling the time at which she would meet 

:-: with you on ecember 11 th. would it seem normal to you that 

: 2 :she might do that through 

. A Yes. I don ? 

our secretary? 

i i ? i I get a telephone call. 

know. I’m in Stamford. Connecticut. 

I don’t know what that telephone 

: : 1: call was about. 

Q 

I’m at the Xerox board meeting. 

1::: Oka 

A I( 

You know she didn’t talk to you that day. 

r. :- 

,--. 

i:;: Q 

I thin that’s a fair assumption, 

Okay. Now, if we look at Exhtbrt 29 and 30 - 

i. =. A I don t have those. Well. no. here it is. 

I think they’re right in a row.’ 

OlCStarr 

-. A ,^. 

.- 

AQ 

:i- .?: 

-. AQ 

; 

f i 1 see that7 

Q 

!Y. A 

:j: 0 

Page 90 

That’s New Hamoshrre Avenue. 

I’m sow New Hamoshire. 

Right. 

Do you ?ave an 

: : z : been sendtng to your office on !!I 

Idea what Ms. Lewinsky might have 

ecember 8th? 

,.,. _*-_ A Resume The lrst of PR firms. That’s my judgment 

. . I. 

,--_ Q And you know that those items that at least sne 

;: 3 : presented to you at some pofnt In some fashion. 

[l’: _I A Somewnere at some time. 

!15‘ Q All right. Now. rf we look at Exhibit 31, that IS 

[ :IZ ja messenger service sirp also December 8th showin 

:I-.Vemon Jordan with a delivery to Betty Currie at the White 

requestor 

; 18: House and it sa s addrtronal Instructrons. “The guard will 

[ 19: call Betty and s ;( e will have someone come out to get it.” 

[ 2 3 i Do you see that, sir? 

[:I: A Ido. 

[?7! Q Do you have an idea what you would have caused t: 

;z3lbe send to Ms. Curne at the dite House on the 8th? 

A It may have been something that I wanted to get 

~f~jdirectly to the First Lady or it may have been something that 

XMAXllIlS) 

Page 91 

t: 1 Iwanted to get directly to the President. What it was, I do 

! 2 1 not know. 

Q Do you have any basis to believe that it might have 

1: j been related to Monica Lewinsky? 

I:; 

A 

Q 

I do not believe it was related to Monica Lewinsky. 

[ 7: to be sent an 

Do you have any memory of ever sendin or causing 

hrn 

[s;courier. et ce T? era, 

to the White House, whether by mar .8 , 

[91 A 

hat was related to Monica Lewinsky? 

I do not. 

Q Okay. Now we’re going to look at the phone records 

! :y!for December 11 th and I believe everyone has a cop 

;I_jsummary. This one has 14 different calls. It’s VEJ- jY 

of that 

2. I’m 

;13:going to hand you that. sir. 

iiz:to give 

Let me just skim my notes. All right. Now, just 

; ib:tO chec z 

ou a little time bracketing. and I know ou’re going 

your calendar for that date. which I WI 1 I do the 

[ 17; same, looking at December 11 th - looking at December 11 th - 

(19: A Thursday. 

[;3; Q Thursday. Yes, sir. 

:zo’ i^. : 

A All right. 

Q First of all, I’m going to go ahead and hand you 

iI_iVEJ-33, which is actually a document I think we showed ou 

r_-3:last time, so it will have another number somewhere, an dy I II 

~24: re resent to you that this is a document we got from your 

[z~!o fp ice pursuant to a subpoena requesting documents related to 

_ 

Page 92 

[l]Ms. Lewinsky. 

[-‘1 On its face, this document has the date Thursday, 

[ 3: December 11 1 1997. It sa s Monica Malensk 1257 under time 

14 1 of arrival and then it says E ontact: Jordan. c? 

[ 5 ; that? 

0 you see 

[61 A Right. 

17: Q And does this cause you to conclude that this was 

1 e I one of the days that you woukI have seen Ms. Lewinsk ? 

19; A According to my notes, I did see her on r hat day. 

Q I:; japproximatel And does the rou h time there which would be 

i! 

12:57. almost I:0 8 , does that seem more or less 

tlz Iconsistent w 

[ 13 1 there? 

h your memory of when she would have been 

A That is the first time that I real1 

Iiziseeing her, although I do not deny that I may \ 

recollect 

ave seen her 

:16:on November 5th. 

I :l i 1:OO that 

Q So this is the da and it would have been around 

[ 191 that you r? 

ou would have actua r- ly met with Ms. Lewinsky and 

o recall meeting with her. 

1201 A Right. 

Q How Ion 

~:~~you had with her on tha ? 

would you estimate that the meeting that 

A 

day lasted? 

I ordered a sandwich the sandwich was there. we 

iz:i had lunch or we had a sandwich, we had conversation. I think 

[ 2 s 1 she was probably out of there in 45 minutes. 

_____~ 

Page 87 to Page 92 
BSA Vernon Jordan. 515198 

1807 

xMAxI1ul6l 

Page 93 

Q All ri 

’ these calls on thrs dg ay. Obviously 

ht. Now, lets o ahead and look at some of 

P m gomg to ask you if 

:I any of them do relate to Ms. Lewrnsky. Just b 

14. background, is it accurate, sir, that based on t l 

way of 

e testimony 

: 5 : you gave before, December 11 th you believe is the day that 

16 : you would have made calls to the companies that you remember 

:--calling, namely, American Express, Young 8 Rubicam and - 

!:: A Revlon. 

ic- .<. Q RevlonMcAndrews 8 Forbes, correct? 

I.C ,--. A Ri ht. 

111: ow, at 9:45 a.m., if we look at our 

I :z: phone list. 

0 Ai%ight. N 

I: 3 : call. from 

the first call was a 36-second call, a short 

our office to Peter Georgescu. who is the CEO of 

;:;:Young 8 r; ubrcam, correct? 

r. E. i.-. A Right. 

_. _- LA5 0 Do you believe that that call or message was 

! I - : related to Monica Lewinsky? 

..: .I-. A There’s no question but that it was. 

[15: 0 Now, at 10:18. there is a call from your office to 

[: : : Nancy Hemreich for a minute and 12 seconds, namely, to her 

~2: : number, which is one of the numbers you call to contact the 

12; : President. Correct? 

[2X: A 

Q 

Or to talk to Nancy Hemreich. 

Okay. Do you be reve that that call would have 

I:iibeen related to Ms. Lewinsky? 

Page 94 

i’ : 

r;: 

A I do not. 

Q Why not? 

[3: A I just don’t. There was no reason for me to call 

[; : to talk about Monica Lewinsky. I don’t know what the call 

15.was about. It’s a one minute, 12 second call and I cannot 

[ 6 i tell you with any certainty that I was calling Nancy or that 

i:: 1 was callin 

:e: r? 

the President. 

Okay. Now, as we o down the list here, we see two 

y 9: calls to Barbara Neysmith and I be ? reve you told us you do 

11;: not believe that you would have talked to her about anything 

[ 1; j related to Monica Lewrnsky. 

A Not that I do not believe it, there was no basis to 

: 13 -talk to Barbara Neysmith about the employment of anybody at 

I un-American Express. Elsie Fairburn is a senior vice president 

[ 15 -for human resources. Ms. Fairburn is the only person at 

r:s-Amencan Express with whom I had a conversation about Monica 

[I-: Lewinsky. 

115 Q 

cls:four-minute call to Howard GI IS of Revlon and this IS one 

Now, we next.aet to - at 11:12 a.m..,there is a 

[ 2: : of the other calls with Revlon and, again, you believe you 

:-:.did not talk to him at all about Monica Lewinskv. 

[2:: A I’m confident of that. 

1:3 Q And, again, now,, when we talked about it before, I 

12 4. believe based on your memory It was a little less clear to 

:zj:you what conversations, if any, you had had with Ms. Lewinsky 

Page 95 

:: : back in November and what, if anything, you had concluded to 

1: :going to do, you don’t have a ve-?y ood recollection. 

:5: A Well, it is clear that ? met with her on November 

[ 4: 5th. It is also clear that any conversation that I had with 

~1:: Monica Lewrnsky had to do with getting her work in the 

[ 11: pnvate sector in New York. That s a grven. 

-. Q But what is also clear IS that as of this date 

I:;: December 1 lth, you are clear that at that point ou had made 

I 14 a decision that YOU would trv to make some cal ly s to helo aet 

i:sjher a job. 

[16: A 

Q 

There is no question about that. 

1: i Peter Georaescu at Youna’ 

And in fact ou had already called that very day 

i14: 

8: Rubicam. 

K Absolutely.- Yes. 

Q All right. And again it brin 

i:E i of do you have an 

K. 

reason 0; can you thin & 

s up the question 

of why on this day 

12: : while you were tal r?g to M,r. Gittis .at Revlon for four 

I;; j minutes you wouldn \ mention Montca Lewrnsky? 

A There s no reason not to mention Monica Lewinsky. 

rz5:BecauSe Monica Lewinsky was a White House intern. I knew - 

-____ 

Page 93 to Page 98 

Page 96 

: : a young person - that !he person to deal with was Richard 

; z. Halpenn and there was no need to bother Howard G~tt~s wrth 

; j ,that. I did not do it. 

: i Q 

i 5: is Halpenn was more surted o dea with a lower level 

And by what pu say. I take it that what you mean 

rs‘employee like Monica Lewinsky. 

._. 

. A That IS correct. 

!?: Q 

i4: A 

Than a hrgh level person like Howard G~ttis. 

Until such time that I called the chairman, which 

L : 3 j you know about. 

:... 

_--. Q But let me finish mv auestron on Gittis. Because, 

r:::again. you answered before I finished. I want to make sure 

[: 3 1 the record IS clear as to what the question is and the 

I 14 : answer. As of December 11 th, when you were speaking to 

1: j! Howard Gittis. in response to my questron about why you 

! i 6: didn’t mention Monica Lewinsky to him, your view was that 

:1~‘Halpenn was more surted to dealing with a low level person 

[ 13 ilike Monica Lewinsky than Howard Gittis because he was far 

::g:more high ranking in the company than Halperin. 

[?a: r~_‘lGlttls a~ A, 

1~1: My jud ment call, I don’t now what I was ta rng to Howard 

ut 

We make l(udgment calls everh;day about what we do 

I did not talk to him about Monica Lewinsky. 

!:3]l could have been talking to hrm about an 

(14 1 having to do with Revlon, having to do WI .x, 

number of thongs 

McAndrews 8 

rz5;Forbes. having to do wdh our representation of McAndrews 8 

Page 97 

[I! Forbes, having to do with some case that we were involved in. 

~2 j It is clear to me that I did not talk to him about Monica 

[ 3 1 Lewinsky. 

:4: That was not so much intentional as much as it was 

i 5 1 Iwas talking to him about that matter and when I got to 

[E 1 Monica Lewrnsky, I would deal with Richard Halperin. That 

[?:was a conscious judgment on m 

[ sideal with Monica Lewinskv. that Y 

part, that when I got ready to 

would talk with Rrchard 

[ 91 Halperin. 

[iSI Q Now, if we look at the next entry, number 6, it’s 

[::!at 11:17 a.m., a call from your office to Ambassador 

[ 1:: Richardson, United Nations, 0, for three minutes 

[:3;and 12 seconds. Correct? 

i?4: A Right. 

L?S] Q Now, you knew that Monica Lewinsky among others wa 

[I 6 1 speaking to Ambassador Richardson about a job, correct? 

[:‘I 

[l’i 

A Right. 

0 

t I 3’ kickin 

You knew that one of the things that she had 

around out there was a possible chance to work at the 

r_:iUnite8Na~ns~p,l!,“~?ht. 

!?I; 

:_,. 

,--, BY MR. LE%JER: 

[?3j 0 How did ou know that? 

[‘4: A Some d y told me. Maybe it was Monica Lewinsky. 

rz5:As she Indicated on one of these e-marls. that she was 

Page 98 

who 

[ I ! talking to - 

[-‘i Q That e-mail wasn’t to you, though. 

13; A Somewhere in the conversation, and I don’t know 

[ 4 1 or whom, somebody told me that John Podesta - as I’ve 

[ 5 1 testified here, John Podesta and Bill Richardson were trying 

[ .s! to get her a job. This conversation on this day between 

[ 7 !Ambassador Richardson and myself had nothing to do with 

[ 3 1 Monica Lewinsk 

:9? BY M;i. BIENERT: 

[lOI Q What did it have to do with? 

flil A It had to do with 

[ 12 1 subsequently in January, I had g 

olitics of the government and 

reakfast with Secretary 

[ 131 Richardson, it was a check-in call. It did not have to do 

[ 14 Iwith Monica Lewinsk 

[15j Q But w z at did it have to do with? 

It was a check-in 

ak? 

--olcstarr 
1808 

BSA Vernon Jordan, 515198 

_._ ._~-~--~ -- 

XMAX(17117) 

Page 99 

He had been to see me once or twice dunng the 

11; year since his appointment. We just mrssed. We missed each 

.j.other and we were talking. This was not about Monica 

[ 4 : Lewinsky. 

c5; Cl So one of the things - this was just a kind of 

[ 61 what’s beei gorn on type of call, IS that fair? 

!7! 

Q 

W%ch I have daily. 

And at the time when you had this wh.at’s been going 

Izion call wrth Ambassador Richardson 

:lojdealin that day with things related to 

, gu were specifically 

:::;corre c? ? 

onica Lewrnsky, 

11:: A 

!?3! Q 

We did not talk about Monica Lewinsky, counsel. 

Let me finish my question. You had specifically 

I 14 I been dealina wrth issues related to Monica Lewinskv that day. 

ii5jcorrect? Is that es? 

i. 6’ A I lad. I called Peter Georgescu. That’s the one 

i :-: call I know about. I called him back the same dav and had a 

i IJ j one-minute conversation with him. 

Q And you knew that one of the things that both you 

Iiijand Ambassador Richardson were involved in, at least to some 

~2: jextent. was whatever the ‘ob interviewing process was of 

L 4 :2 1 Monica Lewinsky. correct. 

I131 A Rrght. 

[241 Q 

A 

Then why wouldn’t you mention it to him? 

[25! It did not come on the radar screen with me or 

Page 100 

r11Secreta Richardson. I was hel in her in the private 

[ 2 1 sector. r here was not anything 1% m assador Richardson could 

[3]do to help me in that recess. 

Q Well 6r example I assume you recognize that if 

I “si Monica Lewinsky took a job with ‘Ambassador Richardson, you 

[ slwouldn’t have to hel 

A 

her in the private sector. 

Iii BY MR. ~RNER: 

She rdn’t want a job with Ambassador Richardson. 

[9! 0 How do you know that? 

[IO: A She told me that. 

1111 Q In the course of - 

A 

ii: jgovemment. 

She told me that she did not want to work for the 

She came to see me about work in the private 

[ 14 Isector. That’s where I could be helpful. That’s where I’ve 

[ 15 1 had some experience and some ex 

rls~govemment. She told me she wan P ed to go to New York to work 

ertise. Also in the 

117 1 in the pnvate sector and that’s what I was working on. 

[‘alThere was no reason for me to talk to Ambassador Richardson 

f;s]about the pnvate sector in New York, about which he doesn’t 

[zalknow very much. 

[Z!: Q And you would have known that at the time that this 

:zzlconversatir occurred. 

!3] I think I did. I just have to assume that I did. 

::4; MR. WISENBERG: Can I butt in? 

[25! THE WITNESS: Sure. 

Page 101 

[>I MR. WtSENBERG: Do you mind? 

;:I MR. BIENERT: No. 

:31 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

i4j Q You mentioned that ou thou ht - you had 

I 51 mentioned, Mr. Jordan, that you ha i testtfie .8 last bme that 

[ 6 1 someone had told you about Ambassador Richardson - 

A I was aware that there had been a conversation 

Ii 1 about her going to work in an office in the U.N. in New York. 

[ 9! I was also aware of the fact that she didn’t want to do that. 

[~o]She wanted out of the government and wanted into the private 

: I I 1 sector, which was the basis of my involvement with her. 

Q Just in referencin 

1:: 1 a transcript of your testimony on 9 

-just for the record I have 

he 

[ 14 1 correct. you did test9 to that. 

3rd of March and ‘you’re 

I’m going to read a 

115 1 portion of it in my. rn!nrstenal capacrty.. 

I :: iafter the 1 lth ” that would be of 

“I am certarn. thus IS you sgeakrn&“I am certain 

ecem r “that I had a 

[ 1 a 1 conversation with the President and as a part of that 

[ 191 conversation I said to him that Betty Currie had called me 

[zo~about Monica Lewinsky and the conversation was that he knew 

izljabout her situation, which was that she was ushed out of the 

rzz]White House, that she wanted to go to New e ork and he thanked 

tz31me for helping her.” 

!241 “Question: Now, first of all, when you had this 

[~5lconversation with the President, where were you?” 

Page 102 

f him. 

“Answer: I think it was by phone. I dtc! not see 

I think it was by, phone. I m certain it was by phone.” 

: -. 

,.- 

I’m skvprng a little bit. 

“Ques ion’ And when you sa 

:i-assumrng it’s also before the 19th, 

tK 

after the 11 th. I’m 

i : “Answer: That IS correct.” 

e day of Me subpoena?” 

.-. 

,-. “Question: Okay. Some time between the 11 th and 

: ! -the 19th. Did you make any notes or anythrng about this 

: s- conversation, at least as it would relate to MS Lewinsky?” 

_: 

.--. “Answer: I did not.” 

_--. “Question: So President Clinton indicated that he 

: :I ‘was familiar with her and her situation at the White House?” 

. -. 

.-- “Answer: Yes. He said that he was aware that 

ople were trying to get obs for her, that Pcdesta was 

to help her, that Bil I Richardson was tryrng to help 

ut that she wanted to real1 work in the pnvate 

: 1-1 sector. He was aware of that. )I %hat was your answer. 

;;i: So actual1 

:: 3: last times, fy 

when you were in front of us one of the 

you testi ied that it was the President who had 

[ 2: : told you about both Podesta and Bill Richardson. 

,_. A Fine. I don’t think that I have said anything that 

isf i is inconsistent with what you have read. 

Q 

Igi i asking you is that still your recollecbon 

No, no. I’m not implyinqthat at all. I guess I’m 

iZ5: A That is my recollection. Yes. 

Page 103 

;:’ MR. WISENBERG: 

i-i BY MR. BIENERT: 

Okay. Pardon me for butting in. 

0 But in an 

ii’ recall - whatever you ta Y 

event, just so we’re dear. you 

ked about with Ambassador 

: 5 i Richardson, there was no reference at all of Monica Lewinsky 

: E. in the call. 

__: A That is correct. 

.~. Q All right. Now, at 1249, I’ll skip over the 

! i i Barbara Neysmith call because I think you’ve Indicated that 

1: : : would not relate to Ms. Lewinsky, correct? /..- 

.--_ A Mm-hmm. ..^. Q 12:49. you once again call Peter Georgescu at Young 

: :I : 8 Rubicam. correct? 

I. *- ,-_I A Mm-hmm. 

__:. Q And there’s a minute call there. so do you believe 

ii; i that that would have been the call when you would have spoken 

i:-: to Mr. Georgescu about Ms. Lewinsky? 

:,2‘ .--. A I have to assume that. ..i‘ ?A-_ Q And tell us as best you can how 

: 2 : : described her or the scenario of what you wou My 

ou would have 

have said. 

i::: A Peter, there is a 

!:z‘who wants to come to New Yo rlz 

oung woman here in Washington 

she’s had X experience in the 

:I? :government would you see if there’s anything for her to do 

::; : at Young 8 kubicam. She’s in communcations. she can write, 

r - :. she has a college degree, I’ve met with her, mll you j-- 

:::see her. !_. 

_-. Q And what would he have said? 

.-- 

!2. A Sure. 

i:: Q Okay. And anything else that stands out in your 

;5:mind that you think might have been said in that 

ii: conversation? 

!-‘ A It was a very quick conversation. How are you, 

1s f Peter? How’s your LB0 going? How’s your wife? How are your i j. kids-7 .i _..._ _. 

(1,:: Q LB0 meaning a leveraged buy-out at the time? 

I::- .~.. A That’s riaht. 

[::: Q Which would be unrelated business. 

A An IPO. It was not an LB0 it was an IPO that 

Iii’Young 8 Rubicam was about to proceed with. 

[iSi Q What’s an IPO? 

[l-:: A Initial public offering. 

[I:: Q 

[ : 3 : things. 

Okay. I apologize, but I don’t know about those 

I just want to make sure we’re all clear on the 

113: record what the initials are we’re talking about. Oka 

!zs:Next call. We have the call at 12:51, another call WI .Y h 

(2 I : Howard Gittis. Do you see that one there? 

i:z: A 12:51. 

[231 Q Howard Gittis at - let me ‘ust check m other 

[ 2 4 : notes here, let me make sure I’m clear. there it is. day. 

rss:So at 12:51, there’s a call with Howard Gittis. 

Page 99 to Page 104 
1809 

BSA Vernon Jordan, 515198 XMAX(lU18) 

Page 105 

A 

iii Howard Glttis. 

TLat does not necessanty mean that I talked to 

:3: Q Oqay. Explain. 

A Well. Howard Gmis has two wonderful people who 

I:iwork for him ant! t could have been that I was calling to ask 

;,jfor information or whatever. Karen D’Amiw has been there a 

;:!very Ion time. She and Ga le are fnends. I’m friends. So 

: 3 1 it doesn a necessanly mean ty hat rt was a call to Howard 

[ 31 Gittis. That is net to sa 

‘6 

it was not a call to Howard 

I 13 1 Gittis. but It couid have een 

BY MR. LERNER: 

a call to the secretary. 

!:I: .,^. 

.--. Q Could that have been true also of the call at 12? 

:13: A 

Q 

Entlrel possibie. 

It wou Y dn’t be unusual for a four and a half minute 

j i:;call to one of these two assistants? 

i16: A We’re friends. 

[I;: MR. LERNER: Okay. 

!I91 BY MR. BIENERT: 

[14’ Q Now oin back to the record the time of arrival, 

c)r : if we look at Exhibd’&J-!3, at least based 0; that, it 

is;; appears thit MGppwinsky amved at 12:57, correct? 

,111 

L--I 

‘d $S;;ihat Howard Gittis call then do you believe 

Iz:{that that would have occurred before MS: Lewihsky was in your 

[251office? Correct? 

Page 108 

.:. His wife was an old friend of mine and we were in business 

- : together. Peter s 73 years old or was at the time. Monica 

‘: Lewlnsky’s motbx IS much youn er. 

:;:extraordlnary fatly guy. The no 9. ion that he was carrying on 

And Peter was quite an 

:s~with this lady accordln 

:c.stunning to me a?d so 9 

to her mother was just sort of 

called him up to kid him about it, to 

.- Isay. “Tell me rt aan’t so.” I never got him. 

:si 

0 Now did ou know Monica’s mother at all? 

A I ctd hot. ho. ..^3 Q So It was more in terms of ood - kind of jeering, 

i II i but in a friendly way. Just a call up to tout 3, base. -._l. 

.--> A It had nothin 

: 13; do with I didn’t belteve that k 

to do with her. it had everything to 

:; 4 ; Lewinsky’s mama. 

eter was dating Monica 

-15: Q And is it accurate, then, from the juxtaposition of 

:;~;the calls that you didn’t 

9 

et him at Straus Communications 

::; land then 

J 

ou tned him a the house or what do you think 

::ajhappene ? 

:13: A I called one place and she told me that they were 

:;3]living together, somethin like that. I couldn’t believe 

:r:jthat, actually. I still dont ’ %elieve it. 

II-,. .--i Q And looking at the fact that it was a 30-second 

: 13; call, do you believe you actually got Mr. Straus or just left 

; 2 4 I a message? 

::51 A I did not get him. I did not talk to him. 

Page 106 

ill A I assume so. 

I:i Q Now, let’s look at - 

[31 BY MR. LERNER: 

Q Is it possible - I think we’ve been over this, but 

i:i.ust to check is I! possible that ou called Howard Gittis 

r slbefore Monida Lewinsky arrivedyin order to speak to him about 

..__.__ I .--, 

[El 

19: Aa No. - but you didn’t get through? 

[lOI A No. 

[I:: BY MR. BIENERT: 

, Q All ri 

11; i Neysmith unrelated s 

ht. We have the 1% call to Barbara 

o Ms. Lewinsky. correct? 

;:41 A Correct. 

0 And then we have a 1:07 call from your office to 

’ t:t Richard Halperin. It lasts a mmute and six. Do you see 

; :7 ; that? 

ila: A That was a call about Monica Lewinsky. 

“9’ Q Okay. And then we see the 1:36 and 1:38 calls, 

iso;which I’ll get to in a second. First of all. based on our 

[2: jrecollection of that day, when you spoke to Mr. Ha Y Penn. do 

;zzlyou believe that Ms. Lewinsky was In your office and that you 

123 1 called him sort of as 

114 1 was there or do you 

ou guys were eating lunch, while she 

!zslthe office’! 

‘6 elleve It happened while she was not in 

Page 107 

A I doubt that I would have called Rich Halperin in 

[Z! 

:31 

!41 

[51 

161 

(71 

[3! 

:91 

her presence. 

Q And then the question is - and let me get to 

next two calls because it might help 

oulookatcalls12and13,Ksal: & 

ou bracket things. If 

6 

call to Straus 

ommunications and it’s a 1:38 call from your office to 

Straus’ residence in New York. Do you see those? 

A 

Q 

She was in my office at that time. 

And that’s what I was going to ask. 

the 

A Yes. 

- - 

I101 

Q I know you told us you haven’t spoken to Peter 

I ii 1 Straus in years. since, I believe, ha wife passed years ago. 

[ 13 1 Correct? 

i141 A Right. Yes. 

!I51 Q So do you believe that what happened here is 

[16]Ms. Lewinsky used 

!I71 A No. ;G 

our phone? 

o. Let me tell you what happened. 

[lOI Q Okay. 

(191 A Momca Lewinsky told me that her mother was dating 

120 1 Peter Straus. which I found stunning. and I didn’t believe it 

[z~land so I picked up the telephone to call Peter and said, 

[z]“Peter. tell me it ain’t so.” 

[231 Q 

[24]stunning? 

Now, let’s dissect that. Why did you find that 

1251 A Peter, as you’ve read, is an old friend of mine. 

Page 109 

[II Q You left a message? 

!?I A Yes, I left a message. Ma be. 

Y 

I don’t know 

r3lwhether I left a message. I called him - 

14 Twanted to sort of kid him about it. 

mean, I just 

Cl Okay. But you’re confident that that time period 

iz;when that happened namely 1:36 p.m. 1:38 p.m. was while 

171~0~ were actual mkebng whh Ms. Lew’insk 

A 0%. { : t( 

? 

LOI es I remember that. T at here’s this 

[Y 1 intern, I’m going to elp her 

:IOI her mother, she’s living with R 

et a job, she tells me about 

: :I 1 her mother’s dating a gu 

er mother, then she tells me 

:I: 1 Ellen Straus as I knew Ey 

named Peter Straus. If ou knew 

len Straus. the notion tha r Peter 

: 13 lwas dating this much younger woman, it’s just - 

:14j Q You were surprised. 

:?5! A It’s a tad su 

Q Okay. And ‘p 

rising. Yes. 

hen we see - so if Monica was in your 

i if i ofke 45 minutes or so, she would have been gone somewhere 

;;a]between 1:30 and 2:O0. in all likelihood. 

9; 

i&l 

A Right. 

BY MR. LERNER: 

:?I! Q 

:X 1 to Richard 

I didn’t quite understand call 11 from your office 

Halpenn. 

:231 A Yes. 

;13j Q lf Monica Lewinsky arrived at Akin Gump at 1257 - 

:251 A Yes. That doesn’t mean she came in my office at 

Page 110 

;1112:57. 

Cl Right. So you think that this call was placed 

iz i before she had arrived at 

ill 

our office? 

A I thinkso. b robablv. Because I wanted to fell 

i 5j her somethin 

I6i BY%R. BIENERT: 

171 0 Tell who somethin ? 

ig: A Monica Lewinskv. w at vou’re aoina to have an 

i5iappointment ou’re oin to -_ a _ ” 

:101 B? LR. Lt!RNi!R: 

Llll Q So you had placed phone calls with - 

[12! 

[I31 

$ Peter Georgescu. 

- Peter Georgescu and Richard Hal 

8” 

rin so when 

; 14 1 Monica Lewinsky arrived you could say “I’ve place these 

! 151 phone calls already.” 

1:61 A That’s ri ht. 

[171 BY MR. BIEJERT: 

Q And then we get to the fourteenth call on this 

.:zilist 2:45 p.m. Vernon Jor 

;~o~c&firm that. has 

n’s cell phone and let me 

[?I1 

da cell phone bf yours? 

A That’s correct. Righ 

::?I Q 

:23lmlnutes. 

To the U.S. Executive Office, __, for two 

!24! 

;251 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know who you would have been calling there? 

Page 105 to Page 110 

~_____ _ _~ 

OlCStarr 
1810 

RSA __. Vernon Jordan. 515198 

Page 111 

A 

. Q 

I don’t have any idea. 

Does even a 

:! would call at the Executrve 8 

ool of people come to mind that you 

ffice? : ; 

: ;:ExecutiveAOffrce. I don’t know who-is. I mean, whose 

I cannot tell you who I was calling in the 

-~:number that is. But I was in my car and why I was calkng. I 

-- don’t have the slightest idea. 

.:. Q 

._ 

.--. 

; 

Do you belreve it was related to Monica Lewinsky’ 

_: 

I don t know whether It was or not. 

It’s oossible d was? 

.--. A It’s possible. 

Q Well - and forgive my i 

: rl trvina to bracket even what aoes on 

norance. but I’m .ust 

_ __ ._. _~_ at 9 he Executrve Q&e 

1:; ~t<at%ould cause you to call somebody there. I mean, who do 

; : 5 : ou even know that works in the Executive Office as opposed 

_ -.. r o at the White House or some of the other government office 

1: -i buildings? 

A Well. I actuallv don’t know what U.S. Executive 

: r :I Office means. I know it’s the White House. The extension 

:I: :2399, I don’t know who that is. Keep in mind that I have 

:I : : been associated with this administration before it 

iE_ ielected and I know a lot of the people there and I a 

ot 

ave 

!:3-relationships with man of them there and to your surprise it 

!z;jmight be that every ca Y.. I dunng thus perrod could not 

: 15 : possibly have been about Monica Lewrnsky. There were other 

Page 114 

‘1. to the Sym ho?+ ball. 

._. 

.-. 4 

j3:Saturda 

A 

Tqat evening. correct? 

Saturday I went to lunch at the British embassy 

;;idinner a r 

aftemcon after that. I went to New York for a 

the Museum of Modem An and I came back home on 

isjthe 8130 shuttle the next mornrng. on Sunda And then on 

; 7 1 Monday mornrng December 8th. I flew to &ite Plains 

: 3 1 a car, went to Stamford Connecticut for the Xerox board 

got In 

:5!meettng. 

::3; I came home about 3:30 In a 

: ;iland then the next morning, I took the 8. 5 

nvate aircraft again 

0 shuttle to New 

::z:York and s nt tne da in New York I met with m 

::z: I met with .&? i 

agent, 

rmon 5 SC uster about a memoir that ly m wnttng. 

!:.I] I had lunch at me Four Seasons Grill. At 2:00, I went to 

: 15 1 Miramax Studros to audition for a movte tn which I had a 

rl6lrole. 

[i71 0 Okay. And then you came back - 

[iB! 

[I91 

Aa That afternoon. 

- that afternoon. You were in Shreveport on 

:zoiWednesday. And then on Thursday was the day that 

[:I lthe office and then Thursda 

I ftew to Amsrerc?am. 

ni ht you left for Amster cr 

ou were cn 

am. 

[Z2] A 

Q So the one day durin that week stretch, basically, 

Iii i from the weekend of December 6t lv? th through the next weekend 

[:s]that you were in the of& was Thursday, December 1 lth. 

Page 112 

: :: things to talk about. 

._. Q All right. Now, I think that’s all we have on the 

:r : 11 th and _.._ if vou look at vour records. is it accurate that it 

1; ‘was later th>t ni -ht thaf 

.=: A I ?eft on J nited fli 

ou traveled to Amsterdam? 

i z ‘Airport, landed in Amsterdam at 

ht 946 at 555 from Dulles 

$. .05 the next momin ._L Q Let me just o back to your calendar. 

9 

%J e were 

: 5 : lookina at Thursdav. the 11 

F:iAmsteTdam. _ 

h. and you left that night for 

,... 

.--_ A Right. 

. . Q 

if f t that correct? 

So Wednesday, the IOth, you were in Shreveport. Is 

A 

It says to Shreveport? 

--z- Yes, I went down to speak to the National Congress 

: I; f of Black Churches. Just there for the day. 

.-:- Q All right. And then Monda the 8th. you were in 

f t; : Connecticut. I believe you indicated? At t k e Xerox meeting? 

.._. 

.- A I was at the Xerox board meeting. Yes. 

.- 2- Q And vou came back from that on Tuesdav. the 9th. 

: : ; : correct? 

._.. A And then I took the Delta shuttle 8:30 the next 

f: f : morning to New York. 

___: Q That’s the 91h. 

1-2. 

.--. A That’s right. 

._ Q And then ou came back - did you fly to Shreveport 

[:; j from New York or from vly ashington? 

Page 115 

A Yes but I was in the office in the afternoon on 

I:iMonday. I am in the office in the late afternoon. I was 

[ 3 1 here for a dinner on Tuesda December 9th. I flew back 

L .I 1 private aircraft to Shrevepo x* spoke at a luncheon, and I 

15 1 was back in the office before’the day was over. 

t:i 1 lth throu 

Q 

h 

Okay. And then you went to Amsterdam from Decem 

%, 

14th. correct? 

That’s correct. 

:89:3:00 at Dulles k on. 

Got back on Sunday afternoon at 

IlOi Q 

[II! A 

ATright. Now let’s90 ahead and look at - 

You want my miles. 

MR. BIENERT: I wish I could have your miles, 

Iii; Literally. Travel would be inexpensive. 

;14i MR. WISENBERG: Tom, could I ask a few questions? 

I:51 MR. BIENERT: Sure. 

[I61 

:171 

BY MR. WISENB,BRG: 

0 Mr. Jordan, d s prett$ dear from your previous 

: 19 1 testimony and from today that you tdn’t learn o any 

: : 91 connection between Monica Lewinsky and the Paula Jones case 

:ZOI until she called you in tears on the day she got the 

!2llsubpoena, is that correct? 

:2:1 A I think that’s correct. 

Q And I’m interested in the juxta 

it:iof these dates around the 5th. 

osition of some 

Before I go in P o that very 

1251 briefly, let me ask you, before you learned from Ms. Lewrnsky 

Page 113 Page 116 

to make sure 

i- -. Q When did you return to Washington from New York on 

iIf:December 9th? ~.^. 

.--_ A I came back that afternoon. 

_--_ Q 

::;:nextday? 

And then you left for Shreveport that night or the 

I. A I left for Shreveport on Wednesday morning and 

: ‘I: returned to Washington Wednesday afternoon. .-c-. 

_._. Q And then Thursday you were you in the office during 

if : j the day and you flew to Amsterdam on the night of the 1 lth. 

. ^. !A?. A That is correct. 

[ 11 herself that she had been subpoenaed in the Paula Jones 

[21cese. had she or anyone else told you that she was on this 

[ 3 1 witness list that came out on December 5th as a possible 

I 4 I witness? 

[51 A Not that I can recollect. No. 

161 Q And as Mr. Bienert told you, our information is 

17 1 that that list was enerated and sent to Mr. Bennett on 

(91 Ms. Lewinsky vii the W%te House the next day which 

[ 8 1 December 5th. ur investi ators also have information that 

[lo 1 would be December 6th. Saturda and we have so’me information 

11 I1 that she met wrth the President. vou visit on the 7th and 

112 1 our testimony IS that that meeting 

[ 13 1 Knonica Letin% correct? 

had nothing to do with 

I141 solutely not. 

t151. Q And then you testified the last time at the grand 

or one of the last two times - that you remember 

i :ti G- “? Currie calling you on December 8th and Ms. Lewinsk 

[ 18 1 coming in on December 1 lth. Is that correct? You have Y o 

[ 19 J say yes or;0 yep record. 

[ZOI 

I!; f I was in Dallas on December 5th. I came home, took my wife Rrght. But if there was activity, it looks like 

olcstarr Page114 to Page 116 
1811 

ESA Vernon Jordan. 515198 XMAXl20/201 

Page 117 

.: there was a meetmg on November - 

.-. A 

> 0 

Yes. I’m not disputing that there was activtt 

No. And I know you re not. And even last Ime you 

f; : said that you had no recollection and your records don’t 

r. 

: 5: reflect a November meeting. 

16. 

:_: 

A That’s right. 

Q But it ap 

: !‘ve~y limrted on behalf o P 

ears that any activity in November was 

Ms. 

: ?.big issue at all 

Lewinsky by you, it wasn’t a 

. _: _.“. A 

0 

I was traveling. 

,.. 

i :s f to pick up after 

Rtght. And then all of a sudden, thin s start 

- starting about December 8th and t ?l en 

: 13.into December 11 th and it ‘ust hap 

: :J :days after she’s on that WI 4 ness 11s .P 

ens to be a cou 

P 

le of 

on December 5 h. 

,. =. 

Is there ““7 

- even if anybody didn’t tell you 

1 :;ishe’s on the witness 1st. do you recall kind of a 

;:-.heightened sense of urgent 

,I: : White House about helping 

by Ms. Currie or anyone at the 

:13: A Oh. no. I do not recall any hei 

Monica Lewinsky; 

htened sense of 

[z: 1 urgency. What I do recall is that I dealt with i when I 

!z:; had tirrie to do it. 

[:1: MR. WISENBERG: Okay. 

i??] BY MR. BIENERT: 

;23; Q Now, let’s look at the series of calls, 15. 16, 17, 

[ZS:which is all on one page. It’s another phone summary, it’s 

Page 118 

rl:got 12/15/97 at the top. It’s VEJ-37. 

i"j - Let me ask you some questions about these 

: 3 : documents. 

[41 MR. WISENBERG: 

: 5:we will hear a loud ra 

Let me just say when lunch arrives, 

on the door. 

IE: THE FORAERSON: Thank you. 

17‘ BY MR. BIENERT: 

0 First of all, the first call there is at 953 a.m. 

j:jfrorn your office 

(i: i number that’s 

- by the way, is that-. is that a 

our office? 

A 

i ti j Aaron Green. 

%hat is - 6 - that may be my driver’s number, 

,- >‘ j--,. 0 And, if so, would that suggest to you that you were 

; :; : in the car when the call was made or when you say his number, 

::s;meaning his number in the office? 

i?i: A That’s his number in the office. I think that is 

; :- 1 his number. And I only think that, if I may intenupt you, 

; 1s: because when I dial him on the intercom I hit 5. 

t-9: Q And it’s a call to the Watergate hotel. And, 

~2:: again, if we look at our calendar, this is December 15th, so 

;;;;thats a Mrdayi 

I ht That’s the one da 

.‘3! 0 O&ay. And I’m going to 

r_;:here. Okay. So you’re actually there. And, in 

!: 5 looks like you have an appointment at 1O:OO with a Dr. 

Page 119 

: : : somebody? your calendar. ,^. L-. Dr. Bottoms, the president of DePauw University. 

Vi L.. Q Do you know where you would have met with him? 

;‘I: A In m office. 

15: Q Loo in at this call to the Watergate Hotel, do you 

If;know what that wo!ld%e about? 2 idea? 

_‘. A No. It is not from m extension and I don’t know 

:? 1 why I would have been calling the 

i 2: think it’s m 

atergate Hotel. I don’t 

call. It is a call from our office, obviously. 

[I;’ zl Let me ask you this. Are you aware of the fact 

[ 1 I : that Ambassador Richardson when he is In Washington several 

[ 12 I days a week, on occasion. he will stay at the Watergate 

ii3:Hotel? 

[?4] A I’m not aware of that. 

Q Okay. All right. Next call at 1:08 p.m. from your 

i 1:’ office to Anna Marie Delafave and I’m ‘ust trying to recall 

rl-iiwho Ms. Delafave is. I know &he’s at d 

[ 19 1 It American Ex ress? 

evlon, correct? Or is 

1191 A Pdo not know Anna Marie Delafave. 

[-‘o: Q All right. Actually, I notice - it looks like the 

;zziRave it. 

~21: hone number was inadvertently left off. Let me see if I 

r-31 A It’s a 36-minute call. 

1’41 Q Thirty-six seconds. 

:z51 A Second call - 

Page 117 to Page 122 

Page 120 

Q It’s a short call 

A Yes. 

Q And the phone number IS - Does that 

nna a bell at all? 

“ac? 

A That sounds like the Revlon number and this may be 

a secretary. I do not.know Anna Marie Delafave as a person. 

The name does no;nn%a,bell. 

Q Do ou elleve that you ml ht have made a call to 

anyone in relation o Monica Lewlnsky on 

8 

ecember 15th? 

A 

Q 

That is posstble. It’s a 36-second call. 

But you have no specific recollection. 

. . 

_-_I. A I do hot. 

.-- Q Now, at 2:10. there’s a call from Monica Lewinsky’s 

- _L -. office to your offiice. 

it’s a 50-second call. 

oken to her that day? 

A Mm-hmm. 

I. 1 

Page 121 

Q On the 16th. there was a call at 2:ll. a 53-second 

Is i call from Monica Lewinsky’s office to your office. And then 

; 3. December 17th at 1:22 p.m. there’s a call from Monica 

:: : Lewinsky’s office to your office for six minutes and 48 

Is-seconds. Do vou see that? 

A ‘l-do. 

Q Now, do you recall when you testified before you 

1s findicated to us that one of your reco!lections was the 

: ~frequencylf hy[zar was very persistent. 

_: .A”, 

.--. Q 

-:-_.that fair to 

And at some points it bordered on annoying. Is 

sav? 

.- 7‘ 

.--. A Sure. 

“’ Q Do 

f :: ’ period would be? 

ou believe that that’s what this kind of time 

. -I about the calls? 

6 r do you know? I mean, what did you think 

_c :._: A Well, I believe that about the six minute, 48 

f i?:second call. The 53 second call, I don’t even know that that 

::9’was a conversation. 

,_-: 

.-- Q What do you believe you spoke with Ms. Lewinsky 

:I: ‘about during that six minute and 48 second call? 

_--. A The progress about her having a job. 

‘-: 

.--. 0 

:z; : what you think 

And why don’t you explain to us as best you can 

ou would have been telling her. 

.-2, A rmade calls for you, I do not have any commitment, 

Page 122 

: : : you have to be patient, things do not happen overnight. I’m 

:: : good, but I’m not a magician. Just wol out, wait. 

:?‘ Q Were you sensing at least b 

:; ; example in this call, a sense of urgency on K 

this time, and for 

er part? 

,:. 

.-. A From the time I saw her until the last time I saw 

16: her, there was always a sense of ur en 

._, Q And so the - let’s se ??7 as! e what began happening 

f ? j as of the 19th, but in the time period up to the 19th when 

: 3: she called you in tears with the subpoena, do you believe her 

: : 3 ; sense of ur 

f : ; : or lower at %. 2 

ency was fair1 

lfferent times. 

consistent? It didn’t get higher 

:.... _--. A I think it was fairly consistent. And I kept 

:: 3 : telling her what I tell most people in a hurry, them that 

: : a 1 wait upon the Lord shall renew their strenath. i:si 0 Now, at any time durin 

I : 6 1 focus, for exam on the December 9 

thise calls, and let’s 

: :-: talking to you 

le. 

a g 

7th call, other than 

out the progress of things and wanting to 

[ I 5 ; know where thmgs stood did Ms. Lewinsky at any time ever 

: 1~: su gest to you in any calls that she had been in contact with 

:z;:Be !t y Cu!-rie about the status of her job search or was 

: 21: commumcatin with her about the job search? ,~“. 

,c-. A gl always had a sense that Monica Lewinsky was in 

: z 3 : touch withgBe%@mF. 

‘?‘;I 

! s 5 1 any way that 

id MS Lewtnsky ever indicate to you in 

she was in touch with the President, either 

OlCStarr 
1812 

BSA Vernon Jordan, 515198 xMAxw-zl~ 

Page 123 

: -a ==tly or Indirectly. about the status of her job 

:: -search? 

_. A My sense was tha? she was in constant touch 

i a :w-_- Betty Currie. I have no sense and knew nothing 

:~:acsut these various visits to the President. 

.,. Q All right. Anythmg else that comes to mind? 

i4:Be~use we’re about to turn to the 19th. which is when 

.--_ 

;:E: BY MR. LERNER: 

11’. Q Do you ever recall a conversation with Ms. Lewinsky 

[ls;wcen she said that she had recerved an offer,from the United 

1: 9: Na::ons? You’ve testified that she sa$ she dtd$t want the 

[ 20: jok but do you ever recall a conversabon In which she 

;zl;sad - 

A I’m not aware that she had - I don’t have any 

~~f~specific recollection that she said that she had a job, 

izgiand she ma have. What I know is that she did not want 

[25;to work for t K e United States Government. She wanted to 

Page 126 

MR. BIENERT- And then these are aocuments that you 

I. had? 

THE WITNESS: 

MR. BIENERT: 

These are my documents. 

: J : are in there? 

Okay. And there are no exhibits that 

;- THE WITNESS: No, there are not. These are just 

:l:mine. Do ou want to see them? 

&R. BIENERT 

_jcould show those to us 

I wouldn’t mind if at some point you 

.:::jury’s presence 

We can do that out of the grand 

::f : ou 

THE WITNESS: No, I don’t mind show:ng it to 

+r;v 

It is my time line for Lewinsky. m time line for 

ebb Hubbell. This IS the transcript o Y my testimony before 

-::-the Burton commmee. These are the three documents and thts 

iis.is a musin 

8lR. BIENERT- All ri ht. 

that I have written this morning. 

‘. z- .--. 

.._. MR. WISENBERG: The forelady has just informed us 

jfa:that we will be at lunch until a quarter to two. 

113; Is that correct? _^~. 

.-a. THE FOREPERSON: That is correct .^. 

i!? i 

MR. WISENBERG: All right. And I WIII come and get 

r 

ou,around that. time. if not before that time, Mr. Jordan, if 

:x; hats all n!&w,$#$_.S: 

::11 

Good thanks. 

-.7;; 

.--, MR. WlSENBERG: All right. We are recessed. 

Page 124 

[;:work in the private sector, in New York City, and that is 

ir;my understanding of why she came to see me. 

0 Did she ever sa that she was feeling pressured to 

I: i accept the ‘ob at the United 

A No. 

Na r. ions? 

5: 

6: Q Did she ever indicate that she had received a call 

: I fmn Ambassador Richardson? 

9: A No. 

5: Q Or any of his assistants? 

“: A 

Q 

Not to my recollection. No. 

:: Now, let me also show you Grand Jury Exhibit 

: :VEJ-38, which is another re uest for messenger service 

;.document dated December 9 5th this time from your office to 

4 i Mty Curr@ at $e White House. Do you see that, sir? 

Page 125 

[ : : to her uninterru ted by staff. 

1-1 

,-. Q 8 

13 :ths courier. 

o you believe that might have been the nature of 

:.I: A That’s entirely possible. 

;5: Q All right. Lets turn our attention - 

[6: Wh don’t we check on the status of lunch. 

._. THI? FOREPERSON: 

i ; j it’s too long 1,“s too Ion 

Yes, but still, I think that 

R BIENER?: Do you want to take a break? 

THE FOREPERSON: I don’t necessaril want to 

i :y; wart for the meal to be here. I think it’s too long an dy I 

[ 1:; think that the witness and the grand jurors need to have a 

[:j:break. 

[141 MR. BIENERT: That’s fine. All ri 

[I51 THE WITNESS: 

[16? MR. WISENBERG: e the lunch 

[ 17 : break now then? 

tHE FOREPERSON: 

I i”,i return at a uarter ‘til two. 

Yes. We’ll go now. And we should 

120: T%E WITNESS: 

MR. BIENERT: 

This is yours? 

I::ic.an just leave all that there. 

Yes, sir. We’ll just leave it. You 

123: MR. WISENBERG: Quarter to two? 

[Z‘I] THE FOREPERSON: Mm-hmm. 

[Zj: MR. WISENBERG: Okay. 

Page 127 

. . . 

!-, AFI-ERNOON SESSION .?. MR. WISENBERG: Let the record reflect the witness 

:i; has reentered the Grand Jut-v room. Madam Forewrson. do we .-. ~~ 

: : ; have a quorum? 

.=. 

_-. FOREPERSON: Yes, we do. 

MR. WISENTERG: 

‘7; in the Grand Ju 

Are there any unauthorized persons 

is: FOR&%%N: No there are none 

‘<. .-1 MR. WlSENBERG: thank you. 

:::: FOREPERSON: 

THE WITNESS: 

Mr. Jordan, you are still under oath. 

.--1 Yes, ma’am. Thank you. .^. 

.--, BY MR. BIENERT: 

.. 2‘ 

: :; j Decembery9th 

Mr. Jordan we’re goin 

which as ‘you’ll recall 9 

to direct our attention to 

: : J: about the last tihe you were here 

rom what we talked 

, yp indicated - and the 

::~~records indicated - is the day that s. Lewmsky was served 

::-;a subpoen; in t$;Pha;k.Jones. okay? 2. 

.--_ 

Q And once a 

:: :: articulate the answers for t I! 

ain, I’d just ask if you’d try to 

e court reporter. .“. ~ 

_--. A Right. 

.__. 

i!i i and 41 

Q I’m handing what are marked as exhlblts VEJ-39. 40 

for your review. And lust for the record, if we look 

:: 4 : at our calendars, ladies and gentlemen, the 19th of December 

::5;was a Fnday. 

Page 129 

.I ~ And so, first of all. the Exhibit VEJ-39 - and 

1 ij ladies and gentlemen, this is one of the phone summary 

: 3: records. It’s got the date of 12/19/97 on top, and it 

.I 4 1 shows four separate calls. 

.=I And .ust for point of reference, Mr. Jordan. if you 

j i 1 look at Exhibit t/E J-41. 

._. A 

you’ll see - 

Where IS this? :j; Q 

i4;document. 

It would be Exhibit 41. I think it’s the next 

This is a document that I believe you looked at 

: 1:; last time. It would have had a different number. But this 

: :I: is a record obtained via subpoena from your office when we 

::2;asked for documents relating to Ms. Lewinsky. Do you 

.:3 I recognize this from before? 

;14j - A Mm-hmm. 

Q And it says at the top, “Frida 

~i~i’97.” And it sa s “Continued.” And then its k 

December 19. 

1 

ows, 

::?lname. Monica ewmsky; time of arrival, 4:47; contact, 

!:? !Vernon Jordan. Do you see that? 

!:3] A Right. 

;??! Q And does that appear - based on this record and 

: 2 1: your recollection of what happened, do you believe that’s an 

:~:;accurate reflection when she arrived? 

.ei. 

--. A I do. 

.-:; Q All right. Now, let’s go back to the sheet with 

iIs;the four phone calls. 

OlCStarr Page 123 to Page 129 
1813 

Vernon Jordan. 515198 XYA1(,2Y12\ 

Page 130 

Now. if we look at the calls. there is a very short 

.! ‘call at 1:26 p.m. from Ms. Lewlnsk ‘s 

:?.office. It’s only 11 seconds. And t t; 

Pentagon office to your 

‘4: I should sa 

en there is a very - 

i 7 i 1:47 from h?i 

there’s another call about 20 minutes later at 

s. Lewinsky’s office to your office, and that is a 

,r. 1-minute-and-57-second call. Do you see that? 

,-. A I do. 

is. Q Now, based on the length of this first call being 

; 2 j 11 seconds. do ou believe that you actually talked to her on 

: 1 :T that occasron - r he first call? 

,... 

.--_ A I do not believe that I talked to her for 

::z: 11 seconds. -‘7’ 

.--_ Q And then when we see the call at 1:47 for a minute 

: :: 1 and 50 seconds, do you believe that you did speak to her in 

::5:that call? 

116: A I do believe I did. 

.I-,. Q And I will re 

f IB i based upon our review oft R 

resent to you further. sir, that 

e phone records, we did not see 

:: 9 1 any other calls in between that time from Ms. Lewinsky - at 

;rolleast. phones that we know to be hers - and your office. 

Now, based upon these records, do you believe that 

i:: j the time you told us about the last time you appeared in 

!~3; the Grand Jury, about the call that she made to you when 

;zdlshe was very upset and crying, indicating she’d gotten the 

_- r~slsubpoena - does it make you believe that that would have 

Page 131 

illbeen the 1:47 call? 

I?j A Yeah, I think so. 

i3: Q And you’ll recall that last time when you were, 

i 4 Iwhen we did not have the benefit of documents, we were asking 

I 5 I YOU if vou knew how lona after the call she would have come 

isjind seen you. 

L71 And in Ii ht of the 1:47 call and Exhibit 41. with 

! g! the 4~47 notation t at she arrived at your office. do you 

: 9 1 believe that that would have been the call at 1147 and then 

::olat 4:47 when she came by our office? 

. .-II A I believe tha r 

.“I Q And how would you describe in the call her 

: :;:emotional state? It was very upset, correct? 

.14: A 

: :s:you in 

Yes. And I think I have already described it to 

::G:of that. 

my prior testimony, and I think you have a record 

,._. .A,_ Q Absolutely. And what I’m trying to do is just 

:; 3 1 short-cut to just make sure we at least are clear. It is 

: 14; accurate to say that, based on what you’ve told us before, 

:?o!and what ou 

:21:you at 1:4 3 ? 

recall now, she was very upset when she called 

.q_, 

.--. A Yes. What I said to you last time is true today. 

:231 Q Well, I’m asking you now, though. Is it accurate, 

: 2: ; sir, that shi wa;eyry upset - 

:15i 

Page 133 

.:: Q 

A 

Do they call you personally. or your secretary? 

They call the secretary And I am tnfonned 

.? j that X person is there to see me. . 

:q: Q 

: 5 iwhen 

,After 

! 

ou had tndrca r ed to her she should come by your office, 

ou got off the telephone with Ms. Lewrnsky, 

:6’but be ore she showed up, do you b&eve that you gave any 

:- 1 kind of a notificahon to any of your staff that she would be 

Q ~comrno later? 

:3: g A Probably. 

Q Whenever it was that you received that notification 

i if I that afternoon that Ms. Lewinsky was oresent at your offices, 

: :: ;do you know whether or notyou had ner come in immediately, 

: :z 1 or whether you had her wait. 

;:.I1 A I don’t know. 

r. ;? 

_--, Q Now, if we look at the thrrd call here, sir, 

[: 6 1 there’s a call at 3:51 from your office and we wrote In 

.:-! here, “Calls President. speaks to Deborah Schiff.” And it 

.:sjshows two minutes. 

::!!I And I’ll show you the basrs for that entry is 

[:o] Exhibit 40. if ou’d like to look at that. And that. sir, 

1:: 1 indicates “3:51 call 

:: : 1 is a presiden ral call I 

#.f?rrr% Jz!n?‘% t”h”edn rtt 

[:3 jsays. “Mr. Vernon J’ordan talked with Ms. Deborah Schiff.” Do 

I 2 4 : you see that, sir? 

!25i A Yeah. 

Page 134 

::1 Q 

~2 1 that afternoon? 

What did you talk to Ms. Schiff about 

131 A I was probably trying to find the President, 

[ 4 1 Deborah Schiff is the recephonist in the receiving area 

[ 5 1 of the reception area of the White House. 

i6! I do not ordinarily talk to Deborah Schiff. How 

: 7 1 Igot shifted to Deborah Schiff, I don’t know. And I was 

;3,Rv 

(3 1 robably tying to reach the President. I talked to her for 

o mrnutes 

{IO] Q 

It was not about Monica Lewinsky. 

Well, wh 

A Y 

were you trying to reach the President? 

!?I] I’m sure was trying to reach hrm to tell him what 

::zlwas going on. 

- _ 

.:3: .~~. Q With Ms. Lewinskv. vou mean? 

A Yes. 

,, 1 

::-1! 

[l5] Q So if I understand what you said. you didn’t speak 

[:~]to Ms. Schiff about Ms. Lewinsky. but you believe that your 

: 17 1 Intent In calling the President was to Inform him - 

;?Sj A 

” 3: Q 

I think that that’s a reasonable assumption. 

And specifically, would It have been to inform him 

!so!of what you learned in the telephone call that you just had 

: 2 1 I with Ms. Lewinskv? 

lxj A That is correct. 

:23j Q Now, lets go to the meeting with Ms. Lewinsk 

,:: 4 1 And I reviewed your testimony from the last appearance, an dy 

: 2 5 1 I’ll represent to you that in that tesbmony, you indicated 

Page 132 

Q - when she called vou on the DhOne? 

;9: 

.-1 A Yes. 

:3: Q Okay. When she showed up at your office at 

[ 4 ! approximately 4:47 - or whenever you first saw her that 

.5 i dav - is it also accurate that she was verv upset? 

A Yes. 

. . 

[i: 

.7. Q And she was crying, correct? 

is: A Yes. 

Q In Ii 

r!ilwas upset, do you %e 

ht of the fact that she was crying and she 

lteve that she would have waited outside 

: : I j of your office long, or do you believe that you would have 

: 12 1 made an effort to 

A 9 

et her into your office quickly? 

::3; We I, I didn’t know that she was 

: 14 1 her. I make no assumption that she was in the.10 =Il by of my 

ing until I saw 

; :5 1 oftice crying. So I don t know what she was dorng until I 

: 16 1 actually saw her. 

:?7! I know that she was crying on the telephone. I 

: 13 1 know that she was c ing when she entered my office. What 

er of my office, on the elevator, 

on the 12th floor to my office, I 

[Z?i Q If you think back to December 19th. how are you 

; 2 3 1 normally notified when somebody is there to meet with ou? 

:241 A The receptionist on the 12th floor where Y was at 

:z51the time calls my office. 

Page 135 

: : ; that you believed that she would have been in your office 

[2 lapproxrmatel 45 minutes. But I want to ask you if that 

[ 3jsounds nght r o you; if you believe it mrght have been less 

[lithan that, more than that, what have you. 

!51 A If I told you when I was here before that it was 

[ 6 145 minutes, it was 45 minutes then, and its 45 minutes now. 

ii] Q 

;8: A 

Well, I guess my)- 

But I cannot - 4 mrnutes. 30 minutes - I do not 

: 91 know. But whatever I thought it was when I was here before 

[lolthe Grand Jury the last time, that has not than ed. 

Ill1 Q Now. if YOU look at column No. P there’s a 5:06 

[I? j call - 5% p.,m. - from-Vernon Jordan’s office to - and by 

i14 lolaced It for vo corre ? 

: 13 1 the way. that sm which would mean your secretary 

have been to Frank Carter at 

:191 Q Aiid I think you told us last time you were here 

rzolthat you do recall speaking with Mr. Carter later that 

[zllevening. or in the afternoon, correct? 

[?21 A Yes. Right. Right. 

[?3! Q I believe you indicated that you thought that 

[z4 1 it was after Ms. Lewinsky had left your office in your 

[ 15 I Grand Jury transcript, or testimony from last time. 

Page 130 to Page 135 OlCStarr 
1814 

Vernon Jordan, 515198 XMAX(2Y23i 

_.~~ __~ ~~~~~- 

Page 136 

:. 

;. 

A Or it may have before she came into my office 

0 That’s what I wanted to ask you. 

A I don’t know. And I don’t recollect. -. 

. . . h Okay: 

: A It is clear. on the other hand, that I was trying 

: I I- it’s clear to me that I was trying to get counsel for 

-‘:Monica Lewinsk 

- : and that counse 7. 

which I subsequently succeeded in doing, 

was Frank Carter, and that is the nature 

s:of the minu$-54second call on 12119. _: 

:: jwas literall 

Is there any chance in your mind that Ms. Lewrr 

in our office when you called Mr. Carter? 

._. 2 That is oossible. --. 

.:‘ Q So you’re not sure if Ms. Lewinsky was present 

:; jyour office at the time of the call, or whether it was before 

: I: or after she was present? 

r- A No, I’m not sure. It could have gone either way. 

“:What - based on her earlier call with the subpoena, it was 

: : :clear to me that she needed counsel, and I was making some 

E ijeffort to get her counsel. And as you know, I was successful 

r;:in so doin 

_. -.I %I Okay. And then another call that I want to - 

__ --I A 

::3isomething? 

Before you do that, may I just volunteer 

.^ .I 

.--> 0 Yes, sir. 

._:, 

.---: A May I, please? The two times that I remember 

lsky 

in 

Page 137 

And I just wanted to say 

-I; jjust volunteer, one of the reasons we think it might be 

.:z: possible is, if you’ll recall, at least on one of these 

z’sheets relatin 

.z’:pretty bad1 

to Ms. Lewinsky,. her name was butchered 

t was something like “Multnsky” - 

.--, 

:lj: 

6 ‘Right. 

- and we were wondering whether it could have 

: I :; misspelled or - and that way, it was missed: 

A And maybe somebody who drd not quite underst 

i: j what she wQas saying. _ 

.-i, So we’ll follow uo on that. 

-*, 

.--, 

A Thank you. 

Q Now, in terms of the 19th of December, I’m going 

Page 138 Page 141 

: : : to hand you Exhibit 42, which is a residential call log 

:: ! reflecting that on December 19th, P here was a call placed at 

:3 ~457 by you to the White House, and that It ended at,5:08. 

1;: and that you - it says, ‘Talked okay at 5:Ol.” indicating 

: 5 j that you spoke with the President at 5:Ol on December 19th. 

: 5 3 correct? 

__: A Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

1 Q And does that sound accurate to you? 

3: A It sounds accurate. I Q Okay. And what I want to do is, as best you can 

: t f 1 recall with these documents 

: 12 ;your memory at all - is kind 

- if they’re able to refresh 

of walk us through this sort 

: : 3 1 of series. 

::;1 And just to highlight what we have is, we have 

: : 5 ; Ms. Lewinsky a 

: : 5: the office 

pearing at your office - at least arnving at 

some I? tme around 4:47. 

:;3, A0 zghk e ave a call by you to the President, where you 

jijjguys spoke at 5:Ol p.m. _ _ .--I _-J> A Mm-hmm. 

Q And then we have a call from your office to 

: f f { Mr. Carterit 5:Fmtha;Ey? 

Jj 

.--r! 0 So we’ve alread addressed - 

.-3, A Well, there’s a II .x le problem there. This says 

111 MR. BIENERT: All right. 

BY MR. LERNER: 

_. ._ _ ____. ._ -._. 

%I, - 

xtension to Frank Carter. I mean, this might clear 

L_e_er~ try to dear up something - 

A - for both of you and for the ladies and gentlemen 

I:i;of the Grand Jury. 

I: zi the President what I d learned. two to secure counsel for 

I had two purposes in mind - one, to inform 

,~, r 171 ,._._..._ Mnnira I -_ swinnkv . . . _ ..,. . And . .._ what . . .._. these’tel-hone _..-__ _-‘cp” calls - what 

[I B 1 these telephone calls reflect is that I was 1,. ,, Ir vu -._ 

[I 9 1 of doing both, at the same time anticirnrinn h=r vi-it 

[201 0 Well, was it anticit 

(211 ,“_. A, l$i;ny she was 

Pl& befo 

js”.“.J a.... ..“I.. 

pating? I mean - 

Nz”,b”ugsaid you weren’t sure 

jz;iwhether th: cali‘ioy’&~‘C,..,, ias during, before, or after 

(3 4 I Monica Lewinskv. riqht? 

i25i A That’; right 

Page 139 

; :.4:57 to 5:08. This call says S-08. I’m not sure that I 

;r:could have had two conversations simultaneously. 

: i - Q Well, let’s - 

[i. A And I’m sure I drdn’t have the President on hold 

i5’ Q 

: 6 1 all, if you’ll noti 

Well, let’s address that for a second. .Frrst of 

;~iwas on your 

I?; 

A v?,” and the President 

!91 Q The call to Mr. Carters office was 

!:o!-, correct? I.:. 

L--1 A 

‘Q 

Rinht 

c-7; ‘ls%‘&curate that that’s the number that you 

t ij Jfrequently will - calls will often go out on that number 

I 14 jbecause you’ve asked your secretary to call someone? 

i-5: i A That is correct 

(161 0 And ou’ve also indicated to us that when you ca!l 

[ 17 1 the President, you dy on? ask your secretary to do that; you 

I 18 I do it vourself. correct? 

;.a; - A That is correct 

,-<1 

.Q 

. ..__._ --..-__. 

Do you believe sir that what ha ened is 

IzEiwould have personally called the President an B&at some%& 

(1: Iwhile you were on the phone with the President, you directed 

r33lyour secretary to attempt to get Mr. Carter? 

A I would not have been on the phone with the 

I:liPresident and simultaneously directed my secretary. 

Page 140 

0 Okay. Well, wh 

I: i believe these calls could have r: 

don’t you tell us: How do you 

appened? 

A Well it’s clear that I called the President 

Ii idirectly. I have to assume that I had told Gail either 

[ 5 1 before or after my call to the President to put in a call 

[6]to the Frank Carter. I was trying to get to Frank Carter. 

[7! I’m also certain that when I talked to the 

;B 1 President, that Monica Lewinsk 

r 

was not in my office. I 

[ slwould not have had a conversa ion with the President wrth 

[ 10 1 Monica Lewrnsky in m office. 

Ill! 0 All righ r And b the way, I’ll throw thjs out to 

[IL‘ j ou and of course - for what 

[ 13 1 hat mi ht potential1 

r;i;!gree t%s rs possibg 

R! s worth. one other thing 

be true - and I don’t know if ou 

- IS because these presiden y. ral call 

:: 5 1 logs would be based on a phone system in a clocking system 

[I 6 1 at the White House, and the call from your office - your 

r 1: 1 secretary’s office - would be on a different system, there 

[ 19 1 is at least some chance that the clocks were a minute or two 

i 19 1 off from one another. 

I?01 But in any event the calls were roughly in that 

12 1 j time frame. Is it accurate from your standpoint that 

I 

ou 

122 1 know that you would not have been on the phone WI h 

:13!Mr. Carter literally while you were on the phone 

i3alwith the President? 

[2:: A That IS correct. 

-..- --.._ -_ 

in ,hm nrn,--cc 

OlCStarr 

__~ 

Page 136 to Page 141 
1815 

0% Vernon Jordan, 515198 XMAX(zLzr) ~___ ~~_~ ._.~__ 

Page 142 

Q So It wasn’t necessarily anticipated. It could 

: save beenAafter. It could haye been dunn 

.: “Antrupatm 9 IS my word. 

wnatever word you want. wanted to et her a lawyer. 

~ gfou have to use 

.i Sne was coming. I wanted to Inform t e President - whrch I 

o;a And I wanted to get her a lawyer. And I was successful 

I-at :nat. And I wanted to see her, and I did that. 

Q I guess we’re trying to understand that -the 

i- Akn Gump records reflect that Monica Lewinsky arrived 

: I : at the law firm at 4:47. She’s distraught by her 

: 1: testimony alread 

We’re ty rymg to understand where she is until 

j 1: 5 o’dock, if she’s not tn your office. 

,. 

.-- A Well. there’s three minutes between 47 and 50 

,.: 

_-- Q No. 4:47 and 5:00 is 13 minutes? 

; 

,-- A Thirteen minutes. 

..-. 

.- 0 Right. 

~--_ 

..;. A I cannot answer that 

r. ;- 

_--. 

._.- 2 l’%kot ut that together. What I can put 

iff:together is that Monica e ewmsky was at Akin Gum 

;:2-to Akin Gump to see me pursuant to the fact that s g- e dTo?l! 

[,::a subpoena. 

[2;- Two, I was trying to inform the President that 

r-5 j Monica Lewinsky was coming to see me, and that she had 

Page 143 

: : : a subpoena. 

._ 

.-. And thirdly. I was tryin 

The sequence of that, 

‘:i -don’t think, to your satisfaction. 

:s:was. and that’s my ex lanation of it. 

BY MR. BI&ERT: 

.-. 0 Let me ask {ou a couple questions here. The _ 

i 5 .- now, keep in mind both o these calls - and if it helps 

‘?-you to look at it, and we’re looking at Exhibit - I believe 

r:-it’s - 

I... MR. WISENBERG: And when vou sav “these” calls, if j-- 

j 1; you could ‘ust, for the record - 

._: BY MR. BIENERT: - . 

1:: Q That’s why I want to - and I want to make clear, 

; :: because I don’t want Mr. Jordan to be confused on the calls. 

[li The two calls that were just referred to on your 

::--records that one of which is not i 

: : i. - both of these calls were on 

n&@$n$$g~~ YOU 

the 

- __ : course. is our secretary’s line, not yours, correct? 

,_^ 

.-- I; That’s right. 

.^. Q Do you recognize the number _? It’s a 

i!f -Whrte House number. but do you know who in the White House? 

..T. L-- A No, I don’t, no. 

i- . Q Okay. This IS a call that was made on your 

i I; : secretary’s line immediately before the call to Mr. Carter. 

Page 144 

: 1. Does anybody come to mind that perha s you would have 

:I -directed your secretary to try to get aho P d of at the 

:: -WhRe House at that time? 

.*. A I was only trying to find the President. 

,_ Q 

i g-the President? 

Okay. And why was it that you were trying to find 

._ A To inform him that Monica Lewinskv had been served 

j 3 -wrth a sub oena. 

.; 6 

: i : : you should 

And 

do? 

why did you feel that that was something that 

I.- A It iust seemed to me the natural thina to do. .-- 

I,^ 

,*- 

;:3: 2 wwh”y’,ot? I had been - he was aware that I 

i:;: was helping her. ‘ly was aware that I was helping her. 

; : J : Betty Currie was aware that I was helpin her to find a ‘ob. 

[:r:All of a sudden, she gets a subpoena. v3 hy wouldn’t I 1 ell 

i I-. him that? It’s - it was in the order of thin s - for me. 

,I$’ Q And it was in the order of w. rngsnot only becal 

; 1 :I he was aware of the fact that you had been assisting. but 

) I!!. also because it was a subpoena related to a lawsuit that he 

i!:iwas involved in, correct? . .^^ L-- A 

Q 

I think that’s a logical conclusion, Counselor. 

I-7. Now. let’s direct ourselves to Exhibit 42. the call 

ii;:you had between 4:57 and 5:08. which! accordin 

8 

to the 

(2 E : record. shows you talked with the President at 5: 1. 

Page 145 

- A Mm-hmm. 

r-l Q So. roughly, seven minutes on the phone with the 

1;: President. Please take us throu 

9 [ 4 : can. What would you have said. 

h that call, as best you 

What did he say? 

:5! A I said to the President, “Monica Lewinsky,call& me 

i3‘up. She’s upset. She’s gotten,a subpoena. She IS coming to 

I m confident that she needs a 

:; 4 I conveyance of information. 

i:5: Q 

; :E i 

-3 

oing 

Okay. Well, I don’t have a stop watch, but I’m 

to estimate that what you just told us took perhaps 

; i7 I 5 seconds. Lets be aenerous and sav it took us a minute. 

i’3j A A Okay. _ 

c19: Q You talked to the President for seven minutes 

i231 A Okay. 

[‘:I 0 What else was said? 

[22! MR. WISENBERG: Let me just - I’m sorry to butt 

[ 23 1 in, but I think it would have been in the nei hborhood of 

r24lfive. right, ifthe -the weren’t connectec?until- 

[151 MR. &ENEFYT: 801 t0 808. 

Page 146 

[li MR. WISENBERG: Oh, I’m sorry. 

;21 MR. LERNER: The phone records are a little 

[ 3 1 unclear, because according to the Akin Gump. it’s 

[ 4 jfour and a half minutes. 

is! MR. BIENERT: 

[Ejcolumn. 

No, you’re looking at a different 

[?I MR. LERNER: Oh,. 

:3; MR. BIENERT: Yeah. Different exchange. 

t91 MR. WISENBERG: Excuse me. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

I want to make sure he has 

looking at call from the 

i I 5 i Mr. Lemer were not from that phone; they were from -a 

rlsldifferent phone. 

!i7] We’re looking at a call - this particular phone 

[ 13; call that was - and let s assume that the numbers are off 

! : 9 1 sli htly but it looks like it was a five-minute-plus call 

,2o!w& the President. 

r-,- ,-*I A I have given you, Counselor, the essence of 

122 1 telephone conversation. And that’s all I can do. I’ve told 

1131 ou what I called him about, 

(24jYhat’s all I can tell you. 

I told you what I told him, and 

[25i Did we talk just about that? I do not know the 

Page 147 

I I 1 answer to that. I do know that that was the purpose of my 

12 ]call, and I’ve told ou. 

Did we talk about the weather? Did we talk 

iii about golf? Did we talk about Erskine Bowles in that five 

[ 5 1 minutes? I do not know the answer to that. What I do know 

16 1 the answer to is the purpose of my call and the essence of 

t?lthat call. 

Now, five minutes - it’s like any call to any 

1:; business associate. You take - you do your business you 

1 Io 1 talk about whatever else there is to talk about - be it the 

[ 11 Iweather. be a family, be it whatever. 

So I have given you the essence of my conversation 

i :: iat that particular time. I cannot give 

Q Y 

ou anything else. 

Okay. You indicated o us what ou recall telling 

i:tlthe President. Now, let’s talk about what, if an 

[I 6 1 President said to you. 

vr. hrng, the 

I171 When you indicated to the President that 

[ ICI 1 Ms. Lewinsky was coming 

[191-- or whatever it was along Y 

our office or was at your office 

hose lines - because of a 

~20lsubpoenaAwha$ d anything,,drd the Presrdent,,say to ytu? 

You think he s a good lawyer?’ I sard You know, 

ii:iMr. President, I recommended him for Maggie.” I told him 

123 1 that. And he ex ressed some confidence In my judgment. 

Page 142 to Page 147 OlCStarr 
1816 

BSA 

Page 148 

Vernon Jordan, 515198 

Page 151 

XMAXWZS) 

: indrcated to hrm that Monica Lewinsky had been subpoenaed in 

; 2 1 the Paula Jones case? 

And did you indicate In any way to the President 

i:sjthat Ms. Lewinsk 

: :?lemotional state. t! 

was upset or anything indicating her 

ased on the call you had wrth her 

: :q !and/or whether you saw her before the call wrth him? 

-1c. A I - if I was ivin hrm the essence of the 

j:fconversation,, then I gave R- rm t 9, e crrcumstances surrounding 

:::lit, I am certain. I mean, I -“She’s coming to see,me. 

:;s:She called me this morning. She was upset. I think she 

:: 91 needs a lawyer. I’m going to get her a lawyer. This 

:z 3 1 is the circumstance.” 

::I: Q 

::~lat that time? 

Did you ask any questions of the President 

::31 A I did not. 

Q 

j;liwhen you spoke to the President. 

Was anyone else gresent in your office with you 

Page 149 Page 152 

!?I A No. 

Q To your knowledge did the President have anyone 

i:ielse on the phone - either like a speaker phone-type thing, 

i 4 j or listening in? 

_ 

[5! A 

0 

I’m not aware that he was on the speaker phone. 

161 i 7 1 to him alone? 

And it was your impression that you were speaking 

[9! A That’s correct. 

19, Q Have vou done conference calls from vour ohone line 

;ijiatAkinGump? ’ 

_ . 

A I’ve never done a conference call with the 

i !; i President. I’ve done conference calls any number of times 

I:31 Q Has the President, to your knowledge, ever 

; : 4 1 conferenced in other people? :. _. .->I A Not to m knowledge. 

.. 6, MR. WISEN$IERG: 

f f; ion somethin ? 

Can I iust clear UD the record 

::?: M8. BIENERT: Sure. 

‘13‘ MR. WISENBERG I think you’ve already done it, 

::cj but let me agree with you for the record on this. I 

; : : : misspoke myself. 

-“,i On VEJ-42. the redacted presidential call log, 

j?; jyou’re correct, Mr. Bienert. It’s - that exhibit. which I 

:::~don’t think the Grand Jury has, indicates its a seven-minute 

::51call from 501 it 508. The placement was at 4:57, but the 

;::in to see you, or do you think you would have excused her 

i:: if she was already in - like. if she had come at 4:47, 

~j:“Ms. Lewinsky. will you leave while I talk to somebody.” 

-4:Are you in a position to help us on that? 

:51 A Ms. Lewinsk 

; _-the President of the United :Ei & 

was not in my office when I talked to 

tates. 

L MR. WISENBERG: Okay. 

:s: BY MR. LERNER: 

:3: Q Akin Gump has several floors, I assume. 

,.~. ,-“. A Twelve. 

il.. &A-. Q And is there a main floor that a visitor would 

::::go to? 

“i’ A Most people go to 4, and then they get directed to 

iIi;wherever. But she knew to wme to 12, and she came to 12. 

::sjAnd on the 12th floor, there is a reception area. 

0. Q So she would come to the 12th floor, and the 

I: -‘receptionist, presumably, would make that log - the 

1I3:visitor ent 

;:3; ‘A 

r?,:until she is - 

That’s right. And she would sit down and wait 

.^. . 

_. Q 

!t;j$, Jordan"? 

But wouldn’t the receptionist at 4:47. or when the 

non arrived, ring you and say, “You have a visitor, 

.--, .^.. ,-*_ /^<’ 

.-- 

A 

Q 

She calls my secretary. 

Right. So presumably at 4:47. the receptionist 

Page 150 

: 1: conversation didn’t be in until 501. So I misspoke myself 

[Zl BY MR. BIE%ERT: 

Q Okay. Now, the call with Mr. Carter - and 

ii 1 Iknow you indicated to us your recollection of that call 

; 5 1 last time. The one additional aspect of it I want to ask 

: 61 ou: Did you indicate to Mr. Carter that you spoke to the 

17 1 b resident about the situation? 

131 A I did not. 

!31 0 Do you have an basis to believe or to know whether 

: 3 1 or not at the time you spoke to hr. Carter he knew anrhing 

11 labout whether the Presrdent knew or didn’t know abou - 

121 A I have no reason to sus ct that he did. 

0 Now 

tiitirne, before we had’t 

ou’ll also recall t 

& 

R 

e benefit of the 

at you testified last 

hone records, that 

: 5 1 ou remembered that you and your w ip e went by the White House 

161 Y ater on this same night-the 19th - correct? 

171 A That is correct. 

191 Q It was at that point that. I believe, you testiied 

: 9 1 you went up to the residence area, spoke with the President 

20 labout 10 mjnutes, and advised him of the situation relating 

;; ; to Ms. Lewrnskr. 

And 

231of these 

realize that you didn’t have the benefti 

hone records then, because we didn’t have them. 

24 1 In light o P the phone records that we’ve seen and the fact 

2 5 1 that you now realize there was a call between you and the 

OlCStarr 

President that afternoon. what did you discuss wrth the 

’ President that nrqht rn the resrdence in relabon 

:r -to Ms. Lewinsk 

A ?eah. I thank if you look at the record the 

:;I record of my teshmon 

:c: Presrdent - because ly 

shows you that I raised with ‘the 

had raised with Ms. Lewinsky that 

.-.Fnday afternoon the whole Issue of sex, and that is In 

i E. my 

:;.the b 

rior testimony. and you have that. I raised it wrth 

resrdent - I rarsed rt first with Ms. Lewrnsky, 

‘. --and that ni ht upstairs In the resrdence. I raised 

i I 1. fl with the Jresrdent. 

.-- MR. WISENBERG: Can I ask a clarifying queshonrng 

.. : .-- - do you mind? 

. .-1 MR. BIENERT. Absolutely. 

. . _ 

.--. BY MR. WISENBERG: 

.-;- Q When 

1 Iz f of the things you 

ou testified last time, Mr. Jordan, one 

men ? ioned was that you relayed to the 

j 1s : President portions your conversations with Ms. Lewinsky. 

::3-when ou met talked to him that evening at the 

;:::White I-l ouse. .^. ?--. We’ve now seen the timing of some of these records 

[X :- the phone records - from earlier in the day, and we 

!r~:think we know when Ms. Lewinsky came to your office 

;:4: Do you think these calls to the President and to 

r~s:Frank Carter would have been made before she actually came 

Page 153 

:: : =lled ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ and is here.,, said ‘“There’s a Ms. Lewinsky - ” 

[?: 

‘:‘ .-. Q At 4~47. 

[J; A That’s right. 

!j: Q In the course of your conversation with the 

16 1 President or Mr. Carter, did you ever say, “She’s here. 

: 7 : She’s in the office - the Akin Gump offices, if not in 

! 9 ! my OffICe”? 

[3: A I don’t know whether-well, two different calls 

I : !I i Wtih the President - ii.; 

A Q Right. 

[::: A - I informed him that she was coming. She was not 

i :3! in my office. She may have then been in the reception area. 

[:4: Q Right. 

i:5: A It is conceivable that - when I talked to 

1:~) Frank Carter for a minute and 54 seconds, it is conceivable 

:I:! to me that she was in the office. I don’t remember. 

0 

i:zlthe President at roughly 5 o’clock that she was already in 

Okay. But you presumably knew when you spoke to 

r:o:the Akin Gump offices,, because presumably - 

I?:] A But not In m office. 

1::; Q I understan 1 

(13: A Okay. 

[:4; Q Now, the Presidents phone call is followed right 

[25:up immediately by the Frank Carter phone call. 

Page 148 to Page 153 
BSA 

1817 

Vernon Jordan, 515198 XMAX(2Mb) 

Page 154 

- _ 

-?: 

2 IRmgr~in~ tpaet her a lawyer. 

u I seems unlrkel that this in that, 

.: 1 rhat you hung up with the President. and then she was 

ou know. half-minute interval - is it posse .i le, you think, 

‘jlimmediately ushered in, and then the Frank Carter 

f 6 1 call was placed? 

.T] A Counselor, I do not - I cannot answer that. I 

i 5 1 mean, I cannot honestly tell you that she was standing 

: sjoutside of my office whrle I was - whether she was in 

: : ,: 1 the reception area. I cannot - I cannot answer that. 

. . .-->. 0 I guess we’re trying to recreate the scene of - 

1: : In your other testrmony - 

7~ 

--. A I’m t 

Q Righ? 

rng to recreate rt. too. 

:14: 

.-i, -_I. A 

: E ! recreating it. 

And I’m trying to be helpful to you in 

.._. Cl We’re trying to imagine - you know, this 

f f 3 i 24-year-old woman who’s very upset in your office. Wouldn’t 

: : 3; you remember that you were speaking to Frank Carter while she 

: 2 c 1 was there. or while she was not yet in your off& or after 

:::lshe had left? 

.--I A I do not know whether or not she was in my office 

i,;lwhen I talked to Frank Carter. She may have been in my 

: 2 4 1 office. I am absolutely certain that she was not in my 

: 2 5 1 office when she was talking to the President. 

Page 155 

Nor do I have any idea that she was visibly 

Ii ;distrau ht in the reception area visibly distraught as she 

: 3: came 2 own the hall, or visibly distraught as she - just 

: 4 1 before she went in my office. She cried inside my office 

: j 1 where the door was closed. 

:i1 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q I have a uestion. Given that - and this might 

il i seem obvious. It probab 9 y IS. But I’ll ask it an 

Given that your best recollection ‘is a rty ou 

:1;;45 minutes with Ms. Lewinsky, and given the level of 

: :: ; detail you were able to tell us last time about your 

: :z 1 conversation with Ms. Lewinsky. and given that she 

: : 3: apparent1 arrives at 4:47 at the firm, IS it safe to 

:: 3 1 assume t x at rt ‘I s not a situation where you’re corn 

: :j; finished with Ms. Lewinsky before ou call - you R 

letely 

7v 

now, 

: : 6 1 before you ever call the President. 

A It is my judgment that I talked to the President 

iii jbefore I saw Ms. Lewinsk 

::s;absolutely certain I didn’t r alk to him a 

That is m jud ment. 

); R 

I am 

er s e left until 

Page 156 Page 159 

~1 I saw him that niaht at the White House - uostairs in the 

I? j White House. ” 

:31 BY MR. BIENERT: 

0 And let me do this, because it may help you. 

ii j What I want to give you, because if it helps ou bracket 

-E 1 time - this is the Akrn Gump phone record t K 

.-i > A Yeah, right. 

at you gave us. 

:?‘ Q We’re 

: 4 j one ahead and I’ve 

oing to mark this VJR-39A (sic). And I’ve 

:i; 1 P ater at 1733. 

8 rawn a line at 4:47 and then 45 minutes 

If you want to just look at those, and I 

::I Q 

: 2 1 that number? 

That’s why I’m asking. Do you recognize 

:s1 A That is Robert Trent Jones Golf Club. 

0’ Q Okay. And the next call is just a short one - 

i :I; 36 seconds - from your phone. 

:121 A That call to Robert Trent Jones was not about 

::3]Monica Lewinsk 

::41 Q ?hat’s what I’m assuming. Okay. Let me just go 

::slthrough three more, and then I can ask -ou a question. The - 

: 16 1 next call, only 36 seconds, to 

~;71recoonize that number? 

A-doyou 

:: 1 guess what I’d ask - _ 

1 A It does not helo me to look at this. I 

f ; i have told ou as plainly, as directly as I possibl can 

; 4 1 Counsel, tIl at when I spoke with the President, Knonib 

: 5 1 Lewinsky was not in my office space, where the doors says 

: 6 1 ‘Vernon E. Jordan Jr.” and you close it when I talk to 

:7jthe President. 

She ma have been in the reception area, right. 

i:iAnd I do not clear Y yremember whether she was there or not 

2 0 1 when I talked to Frank Carter. Now, I don’t - I don’t know 

2 I 1 how I can be more helpful to you. 

“I Q Well, let me ask ou some questions on this, 

5; 1 because it may not help you, bu 

7 

A 

I thank rt WIII help me. 

241 I’m - I want to do that. 

251 Q The first entry, on December 19th, at 1647, which 

Page 157 

: ‘would be the time - at least the record shows - she arrived 

I ‘at your off&s Whether or not - 

A 1647, meanrng 4:47. right? 

.;: Q Yeah. In mrlrtary time. So 1647 is 4:47. 

o-minute call from your inside line to 

1 :vmcog nize that? 

._. 

12; 

:31 A 

-. ,i Q 7 

what? 

.--. -.l. .--1 A that IS the -_ - that is the 

: 1: 1 number of Susan Barris Ford. who is the presdent of the 

>‘Ford Foundation, of which I am a trustee .--. 

::;: Q That call, I’m assuming, would have nothing to do 

: 5 1 with Monica Lewinsky. 

. _1 

.-c, A You can correctly assume that. II ht. 

‘:‘j Q Now, the next call we have after w e hme when it 

::s 1 shows Ms. Lewinsky a 

::3!456-6794 - which is aB 

eared at Akin Gump IS the 1701 call to 

hate House number. and I think you 

: r 3 1 indicated you’re not sure what number it is. 

._. .-.I A I did. .^_I> _--1 Q 

:z?:secreta 

But this number would have been called by your 

:z4 Jwith the % 

at around the same time as you were on the phone 

resident, and the very next call by your secretary 

:z 5 1 was to Mr. Carter. 

Page 158 

; 5 1 both my secretaries have relationships with 

: 61 the White House, and so I don’t know what t Ke 

ople in 

at call was 

;Tlabout: If I knew what it was about, I would tell you 

; 3 : what tt was about. 

.31 Q Let me ask you this: Was Frank Carter the only 

: 2; attorney that you considered for Ms. Lewinsky? 

111 A .^ He’s the only person that I considered. 

__] 

131 

Q Oka!. SoyoudidntA And he on y person that I called - only attorney 

t I called. 

_ 

Q Okav Now. there’s a call after the Frank Carter 

::ljtha 

Do you recognize that 

cretary’s phone. 

?r~thdre’s-another call on vour secretarv’s 

acnuse/s,and it shows a location of ’ 

‘eah. Keep in mind that the calls from my 

f Y i secretaries’ office are not alwavs mv calls. 

i:4j I understand that. - 

::5! AQ Good. 

'1ei - 

i191 

A No. 

Q .Next one, local call from your phone tom. 

;zolDo you rezgnriz,that number7 

:2?! 

then finally, it’s another White House 

and that was at 5~33. Do you recognize 

;IZ51 A No. 

Page 154 to Page 159 olcstarf 
1818 

Page 160 

Q Now the calls that I have ‘ust described for you 

I : occurred - the one that was to the Ford 6 oundation was 

i3fln my office. 

,-. Q All rtght. So we then have a 14-minute gap until 

:fithe calls that appear to be about Ms. Lewinsky. And then 

:: 3 I’ll reoresent to vou that if we QO from 1701 to 1733, 

13 j through all the calls I just relafed to you - and 

1:: there s a call every few minutes. .i. And the reason I’m asking this series of questions 

f;jis to see if it might help in determinrng whether or not, for 

:-:example 

:3: then you ,x 

ou only saw Ms. Lewinsky for 13 or 14 minutes. and 

mshed wtth her and made the catis. or whether 

x 

ou 

13: had her wart approximately 45 minutes, while you made a 

_: 3 1 these calls which don’t appear to relate It her, and then 

[z;:saw her. 

A As you know from the calls that you have 

I$isubpoenaed I spend a lot of time on the telephone. So the 

[;s 1 notion that 161 going to remember specifically whom I talked 

[zs;to. where, about what, on a given time, I have answered that 

c 1; to the best of my ability. 

Page 161 

That’s number one. 

Number two Monica Lewinsky was not the onl thing 

i:ion my agenda from day to day. I had many, many other r- hangs 

[J j to do, as attested to you here by my travel schedule, by my 

[s!work schedule. 

I;;set of 

iven 

I 9: know R 

So the notion that I am preoccupied_wr;tn 

hone calls and a given set of time, I’m 7 

ow to be hel ful to you any more than I have. 

0 

izi hoping you can focus on ha a little more. 

1:: A Mm-[mm? 

Wet my uestion is a little more narrow, and I’m 

1 2 . Cl White you indicate you can’t remember every 

:?icall. the question that I’m asking is: Is it accurate 

I; :that you wouldn’t be making all of these calls unrelated 

15 i to Monica Lewinsky wrth Monica Lewinsky sitting in your 

:6~office. crvina? 

i1_:. - A- It is like1 

;:? i called Frank Carter. 

that she was there when I 

S ;( e was not there when I talked 

i i 9: tO the President. She was not there when I talked to 

[ zc 1 Susan Barris Ford 

:7, Q And other than that, we don’t know, or you have no 

:;: .__, ; recollection ~~_ one wav or the other as to the time - 

:23: ~A I told &in my prior testimony how long I thought 

; 2 4 : she was there. You K ave the benefit of that. And if you 

I: 5 1 want me to see it to refresh my recollection, I’m happy to 

::;read it to do it. 

Page 162 

I have iven ou the best recollection of that 

j:;moment on the 1 & h of ‘6 ecember that I can possibly do 

No. No, I have - 

Q Your office, and then the doors open, and there’s 

:ig;the secretary and others, but - 

..-I A No, no. There’s a hall. This is m 

x 

oftice. One 

: :3 jsecreta ice here. 

.:q IThat is t x 

sits here, and one secretary is in an o 

e door to my office. It’s a comer office. Next 

:lj idoor to my office with a separate door and no adjoining door 

161is a conference room, called the 12th floor conference room. 

IT! Gail sits - sat here. and Coleman sat there., and my office 

j:a:was here. Here is the reception area. (Indicating.) 

‘191 Q Okay. And what I’d ask is - 

:201 A The elevators are here. Come here to the 

‘2 11 rece 

% 

tionist. 

‘z:]get t 

The sofas are here. And when Coleman goes to 

e person, they go down, and they bring them here and 

.23!rnto my office. 

‘??! Q Okay. What I’d ask you to do is -just so this 

zslthing will make sense when we look at it in relation to the 

Jordan, 5/5/98 

Page 163 

XMAX(27127) 

: ‘transcnot later. if you could wnte in the top right-hand 

: I : corner VEi39B. 

Q 

(Witness complies.) 

::‘ And then ust to make it complete, rf you could put 

: 5: in your office a ‘II.” and I .t you can put in the conference 

;!;room. ‘CON.” so we’ll know. 

A (Witness complres.) 

.:. Q Okay. Is that - 

.5: 

: f :: 

A There’s a little crook here that - I’m not very 

.% 

ood at this. but there’s a little crook from me that goes 

: : 1: own to this hall (indrcating). 

.‘;: Examnin 

Q 

:;;:L p_ 

Okay. Is there anything on the back of thus? 

document.) All ri ht And this IS on the back of 

xhtbd V J 39. for the recor 8 

::5j 

All nght Let us move on. 

Then your meeting with the President later that 

::ejnight was primarily so you could ask him the questron, or 

: I-: the - ask what you related to us last time about the nature 

:: 9~ of whether there was a sexual relationship between he and 

:~s!Ms. Lewmsky. correct? 

;231 A That is correct. 1-1 .--I Q Now that ou’ve had the benefit of these records 

;zz!and the phone call recor tJ , do you recall now whether or not 

!-3lthe President asked you anything or said anything to you in 

~24 1 that person-to-person meetrn in the White House residence 

rzslthat you did&t recount for us 9 ast time? 

Ill A No. 

Page 164 

: 1 ] 

i; 1 benefit of 

0 And by the way, just so you’ll know, for the 

ty 

our memory, just - it does corroborate - I 

14 1 think you old us last time that you believed 

; 5 1 and met with hrm in the residence at about J 

ou’d gone by 

o’clock that 

: 61 niqht or thereabouts, and Exhibit 43 shows 8 o’clock. 

[7] - A Yeah. 

[Sl Q So 8 o’clock entry into the White House to meet 

r 9 1 with POTUS. or President. correct? 

:i0i A On the 19th? 

.-> 1 _-Al Q Yes, sir. You see. it says - 11-1 

.--, It was not 8 o’clock. The dinner at the 

: :x! White Haute took lace at 8 o’clock. I did not - I went to 

: :A lanother dinner. W# en I got to the White House, the dinner 

breaking up. So that’s - that’s incorrect, 

:::!at 2015. or 8:15. 

ot scheduled at 2000, and then it shows entry 

:13! A I did not go to the White House dinner. I went to 

: :slanother dinner. It was a black tie dinner. The dinner that 

:~a! I went to was not a black tie dinner. When I got to the 

: 2:: White House. it was after 10 o’clock at night. The dinner 

:z?lwas virtual over. 

:23! 8 So this document is correct, in that ou were there 

:: 4 j that night, but ou believe you there later than it re x ects? 

:251 A ! promise you I was not there at 8 o’clock. 

Page 165 

[?I 

.?. 

MR. BIENERT: Okay. Anything else on the 19th? 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

:3j Q Can I just make a couple of points for the record 

! 4 1 that might have already made. 

:5! But this presidential call log we discussed - 

r6jVEJ-42 - I want to note for the record that it indicates the 

i 7 1 call was outgorn from the President to Mr. Jordan. 

:81 And a P so - I think a couple of the numbers 

: 91 that you didn’t recall that Mr. Bienert read out to you 

: ~olfrom the 19th -- - these were calls made from the- 

: : 11 line at your office. 

[12] A Mm-hmm. 

::31 0 That one was to the -w is the White House 

: 14 I social office. And I believe vou knew some peoole in 

!:s]that office. 

. 

I i7” i office. 

A My wife is a volunteer in the White House social 

Now, whether I was calling my wife, whether my 

! I e 1 secretaries were calling my wife, whether my secretaries 

: I 41 were calling to get somebody a White House tour - I do not 

1201 know the answer to that. 

:‘lI 0 Right. I just wanted to clarify, because I 

: zz 1 remembered from last time 

: pi 3 1 occasion to call the social k 

ou had mentioned that you had 

o ice. 

The other number that I don’t believe you 

i~~~recognned just a few minutes ago when Mr. Bienert here read 

OlCStarr 

_ ~~~__~ 

Page 160 to Page 165 
1819 

BSA Vernon Jordan, 515198 XMAX(283I 

Page 166 Page 169 

call from the _ line. and 

our records indicate that that is to 

; 1: hone summary for December 22nd. which is VEJ44. And 

::: P ocussng on some of these calls, first of all, there’s a 

: 3: one-minute call, the first call on there - and ladies and 

entlemen of the Grand Jury, this IS the exhibit that has the 

12/22/97 on it. It shows seven phone calls. 

;; / somethina called “special operator” - “special operator” at 

: j j the Whrte-House. And I 

i7.h 

~6; ou aware of any particu $ ar lme that is called. when 

u&s my question to you is: Are 

ou’re 

awna vou know. kind of trouble locating the Press -dy ent or 

is j a&th%g’ like that? 

A 

[ iij message, the 

Sometimes when the White House calls and leaves a 

; 1; 1 And you call K 

will say, “Have Mr. Jordan call Operator 2.” 

t 

i 1: Igenerally 0 

e White House and you ask for Operato! 2. and 

19 _--, 7 :operator, I s 

erator 2 is the o erator on duty. The special 

on? know what t 1 at IS. 

;14; MR. WISENBERG: Could be that. 

!lj] MR. LERNER: Actually, at the risk of totally 

:i!exhausting the Grand Jury’s patience. l,et me offer,a theory 

wnat might happen is that, this IS an out 

iiifa%?the President at 457. The President may a 

omg call 

ave left a 

: 3 1 messa e with Vernon Jordan’s secretary to call ba$ at a 

zojspeaa P operator’s number. This would be an outgolng @II 

2: ;from Mr. Jordan’s secretary’s extension at 501, connecti?g 

221Mr. Jordan and the President. So that’s how that would tie 

[;3]in tih that. 

[241 BY MR. BIENERT: 

[25; Q Let me ask you a question, if you know, 

Page 167 

1 I1 Mr. Jordan: To your knowledge, does 

[rlsystem - is it set up in such a way Jha ty 

our office phone 

your secreta 

~31 could place a call from you on her line - in essence, 7 Ine 

14 1 somebody up for th call for 

[ s 1 pick up on rur dine? 

ou - but then have you 

Its almost like patching 

[6]yoU throug 

A 

Ii 1 them up, she has to buzz me to tell me to 

She could line somebody uk a?d then once she lines 

It ltne 2. 

A The details of the modus operandi on my tele 

:i jsystem has not ever concerned me. What I want to do is tal R 

hone 

15~ to whom I want to talk when I want to talk to them, and I 

;6] have two very competent peo 

17 1 know how to transfer the call P 

le to facilitate that. I don’t 

rom one office to another. 

Cl Yes. Do you have a phone that has buttons that 

,izipush on it when you pick u 

R 

a line? 

:2c: A Yes. And I now how to push - if it rings, I know 

,?I: how to push it, and I pick it up, and I talk. 

.--, .,7, Q I think I miaht know that much. 

I231 I% Yeah. - 

Q Do those numbers that you push, or the buttons 

iI:ithat you push - do they have a little number under them, 

Page 168 

rl~like~ 

A I have a private line that my wife calls me on. I 

Iiicannot for the life of me tell ou what that number is. 

[41 0 Okay. All ng 3 1. 

A Because I don’t call it. But I know when it 

i z i rings that that is the chairman of my board. Then I pick it 

i 7 I up: okay? 

Q Right. But then your answer is, ou’re not 

/ “,!aware of what numbers, if any, are under, like, ly me 2 on 

iioiyour phone? 

[I11 A 

[I21 Q 

I answer what is buzzing. 

Does that mean the answer is you don’t know what - 

!I31 A I do not know. And ou know I don’t know. 

0 All right. Now, let’s r ook at December 22nd which, 

I :!,I as you’ll recall - or IS it accurate, sir, that that is the 

1: 6 1 da 

r 

that you actually brou ht Ms. Lewinsk 

9: er over to Mr. z 

from your office 

[ 17 1 in he morning, you drove artefs office. 

[ 1s 1 introduced them, and then left, correct? 

iI41 A That is correct. 

Q All ri 

ii;; shows that YOU did t! 

ht. And in fact your calendar on that day 

ave a meeting I 

i22j 

[231 

A- At 11 o’clock. - 

Q With Mr. Carter, correct - is that right? 

124: 

!251 

A Yes. 

Q All right. I’m going to have you look at another 

I do not recall it. But I do not say that it did 

:;::not happen. 

[::1 Q Okay. Then there is a three-minute call at 9:i * 

r- _> ~,from vour limousine to Mr. Carter’s office. Do you see that? I~~. _ 

:14: A Yes. 

[15: Q Okay. Do you recall making a call to Mr. Cane- 

:; 6 :from your limousine? 

Page 170 

[I ;my office. Anything you need?” I mean, it’s a very 

~2 lgeneral conversation. 

Page 171 

c 11 then shortly thereafter, at 2: 15 p.m. there’s a call from 

12 1 Monica Lewinsky’s office to your o&e, and it’s a 46-second 

[ 3 1 call. Do you see that? 

[41 A Yes, I do. 

Q Iz jcontacting Do you have a recollection of Ms. Lewinsky errer 

you on a short call after meeting with Mr. Carter 

I 7 I that dav. or leavina YOU a message? iei - A I dciriot. 

Q Do you know whether Ms. Lewinsky at any po1-t 

riijindicated to you that she had just spoke with someone at the 

I I 11 White House? 

il2j A 

Q 

I have no recollection of that. 

i::irecollection that you don t recall it but i ml ht 

Can you preclude it ha,!?? Is your 

1151 have happened, or YOU feel confident that s e never did so 

ilsjindicateto ou? _ 

x Yeah. I don’t think I’ve ever had a 4bsecond 

I:iiconversation with Monica Lewinsky. 

0 Let me ask you this, because I don’t know if I ever 

I:iiasked last~me+e~;.you have voice mail at your office? 

[Zli 

0 And I know you indicated to us that Ms. Lewins%y 

~~~~would frequently call, and you’d get messages that she 

[ 2 4 1 called, correct? 

1251 A Right. 

Page 166 to Page 171 

____~ 

OlCStarr 
1820 

BSA Vernon Jordan, 515198 XMAX(w29) 

Page 172 

Q 

A 

Did she frwuently leave. you voice messages? 

.-_ I don’t take my vote mall messages. 

:z. Q 

A 

Meaning - so she never left you a voice mail? 

::‘ I don’t know that. But I don’t - I don’t do 

: 5 j the voice mail. I have two very corn 

’ 5. the voice mail messaaes. and aive t I? 

tent people who take 

j 1 j do that. 

_ em to vou. I don’t 

.i. A I see what you’re saying. So in other words, you 

: 3 i don’t actually listen to somebody’s voice on the message 

:,~machine. If tt comes to vou. its because a secretarv has 

‘:::listened to it and then w&en out a message for you: 

..a: A If I’m in the office on Thanksgivm 

: Ii i red light is on, I might listen to the voice marl. I % 

day, and the 

o know 

:; : how to do that. 

..:. 0 Okay. Do you have any recollection of ever 

i lz j listening to any voice mails from Monica Lewinsky? 

.- . 

.1? 

A I do not. 

BY MR. LERNER: 

3. Q Maybe you were ‘oking when you said you never 

:: 2: recall a 40-second phone call WI .I h Ms. Lewinsk 

r 

Is that a 

: 1: 1 comment on the fact that whenever you talked o her, she 

.:z: tended to ramble or - 

:;3! A 

:?4]her mind. 

Well, she generally had a tot to say, a lot on 

--<I 

.--, MR. LERNER: So that’s why you - okay. 

Page 173 

:11 BY MR. BIENERT: 

0 All ri 

i~~calls. there is a 45 B 

ht. Now if we look at the next three 

call from’you 

: 4 ; extension - to the general White 

- or I should say your 

House 

;~1456-1414; is that ri ht? 

operator, correct? 

161 A Mm- ?l mm. 

:7 j Q And that’s a 2-minute-and-12-second call, 

12 J I-minute-and-24-second call. Do you see that? 

13: A Ido. 

141 0 

: 5: call - do 

All right. Now, call No. 5 -this White House 

ou 

16 President s: 

believe that was a call from you to the 

_: 

- A I don’t know. 

1?‘ Q 

. j : Do YOU have any idea who YOU were callina? 

-2. A I do-not. _ 

Q Does the fact that you immediately after making 

i? j that call, called Monica Lewinsky’s number make you believe 

22 : that you might have been calling someone at the White House 

z 3 1 about Monica Lewinsky? 

:;: A 

Cl 

It is possible. ^_. _a: And if you were calling somebody at the White House 

Page 174 

: 1: in this time frame of December 22nd about Monica Lewinsky, 

;: ! who would you have been calling? 

:?: A The President. 

Q Is there anyone else in this time frame of the 

i: j 19th of December through the 22nd that when you called the 

: 6 !White House on the to IC of Monica Lewinsky. you were calling 

17 I-- other than the Press # ent? 

:3i A Betty Cume. 

Q You have told us about some conversations 

-i: i that you had with the President in that time frame about 

: 1: 1 Monica Lewinsky. 

..^I .--._ Did you have any conversations with Betty Currie 

: : 3 1 In that time frame about Monica Lewinsky. And this time 

: 14 j frame would be upon being notified by Ms. Lewinsky that 

: :s:she’d been sub 

: ; 6 I the next week t % 

oenaed in Paula Jones and, let’s say, 

ereafter. 

OlCStarr 

Page 175 

; :. there was a discussion relatin ect of 

:I : Ms. Lewinsky. but the fact tha 9 

not to the job as 

she had been su g 

: 3 : the Paula Jones case? 

poenaed In 

I:: A I ma have told her that I knew that she had 

: 5: a subpoena. I don ? - I don’t have an - I don’t have 

cs:an 

i 

drrect recollection of havrng calle a, her up to discuss 

:-:wrt Betty Cume the subpoena that had been issued to 

: ? ‘Monica Lewrnsk 

131 Q dew if we look at the call at 503 to 

::3:Ambassador Richardson - do you know what that 

; : : : phone call was about? I.^. .A-_ MR. LERNER: It’s lsabelle Watkins’ extension. 

::?I MR. BIENERT: Oka 

[;.I! MR. LERNER: Righ r She’s his chief of sta 

So that’s his secreta 

Fy 115; BY MR. BIENERT: 

[16: Q Then lets make sure we’re clear. iust so 

;:-:you know. 

[i31 

, 

tsojthere -5ecrplmr’S CalI e-to the extension 

The phone record that we have here, Mr. J@an, is 

I’ 9:from your 

I:11 A Mm-hmm. 

[2?] Q That is not his personal inside line, but that’s 

[ 2 3 1 the line that comes back to his executrve assistant, okay? 

I'41 A I don’t know what that call was about. 

[‘51 Q Okay. And is it your best judgment that it was 

Page 176 

[ 1: probably a call that you were not involved in - from your 

[: isecretary to another secreta 

[31 A I think its - I x7 t ink it’s fair to assume that. 

14! 0 Now, we looked a earlier at a call between you and 

: 5:Ambassador Richardson, I believe, in November. And then I 

[ i 11 any topics or anythin 

: :2 : Ambassador Richar dg 

that you were discussing with 

son? 

A What I am certain of is that we did not have a 

Page 177 

[ : 1 she had become a witness in the case. 

I-7’ Q Now, you also knew that Ambassador Richardson was 

: 3 j someone who had been asked to try to get Monica Lewinsky a 

c J Ijob, correct? 

151 A I did. Right. 

[61 Q And you knew this at the time when you teamed 

: 7 ! that Ms. Lewinsky was a witness in the Paula Jones 

! 3 1 case, correct? 

!91 A Right. 

[lOI Q Then do you know whether or not 

[I 11 Ambassador Richardson learned that Ms. Lewinsky 

[ :z 1 was a witness in the Paula Jones case? 

El31 A I don’t know the answer to that. As I’ve 

[ 1 .I 1 said to you before, here today and prior to, I did 

[I 5 1 not have a conversation with Ambassador Richardson 

;~slabout Monica Lewinsky. 

Cl71 Q 

[I31 A 

And my question is: Why wouldn’t you, if - 

And m 

T 

question to you is: Wh 

tG 

would I? 

Q May I rnrsh my question sir? 

I:iisir, is: Once you knew that Ambassador Richardson was also 

y question to you, 

1 z 11 attempting to get Monica Lewinsky a job, and you knew that 

[z? IMonrca Lewinsky had been subpoenaed in the Paula Jones case, 

[z,lwh 

[ 24 1 tha r 

would you not inform Ambassador Richardson of the fact 

she was a witness in the Paula Jones case? 

r25: A I had - may I speak? 

Page 172 to Page 177 
1821 

BSA Vernon Jordan, 515190 XMAX(JOI30) 

Page 178 

. . 

AQ 

Yes. srr .I. 

,-. 

:;:me to do that 

i nad no du)l to do that. It never occurrec :o 

I never. as ve sard to you before. had a 

r;.conversatron ~2% htm about Monica Lewinskv because I ‘ed no 

j 5 i need to have a conversatron with him. ’ 

_. .a. It never occurred to me to have a conversation wrth 

(-: hrm about her being a wrtness or about her not wanting :o 

[?:work at the UN. It IS not a - it was not a toprc of 

rs‘conversation for Ambassador Richardson and myself. 

p . 7 Q Now. you say it never occurred to you to ta C to 

) I:: him about her status as a 

: :z f of the job searcti Issues. e 

ossible witness in a case In kg:: 

et me just ask you: You were 

~131 involved a few Years back with helprng Webster Hubbell pet a 

r:4ijob, correct? !iE‘ 

, --, A That is true. 

:16‘ Q And as a result, there came a time, after ycu had 

; i - : helped Mr. Huboeil in hrs job search efforts, where he 

i I 3 : pleaded guilty to a crime. correct? 

;15i A That’s correct. 

[?Oi Q And as a result of your involvement - namely, as a 

[z1;result of the fact that 

r~lgetting in touch with tz 

ou had assisted Mr. Hubbell in 

evlon,, where he was thereafter 

rr3!employed -you were questioned to some extent by 

[24 y investtgators about whether or not your assisting him 

[zs;in getting that job was at all tied into his status as a 

Page 179 

[ 11 ossible witness against, among others, the President of the 

iI; [nited States correct? 

I31 A ’ And the answer to that was no. 

(41. Q 

[ 5 j it, correct? 

Well. the answer is you were questioned about 

i61 A 

Q 

I was questioned about it. 

And in fact when you itemized for us today the 

Ii idocuments that 

[ 9: documents you r; 

ou broug’ht with you today, one of the 

A 

rought is a transcript. 

1101 Before the Burton committee. 

ou actually had to go, similar to what 

i141 iJ .Y”’ In terms of testifyin 

::jltestify before a mn ressional mmmr 

dg 

!t 

And you had to 

ee about what 

,li,happened in reqar to Webb Hubbell and vour efforts 

i??jto get him a jODy correct? 

[IS; A Correct. 

:191 Q And the reason 

[zo! it or not - the reason that 

- whether there was any merit to 

~2:; committee was because o r 

ou were brought before that 

iz2 ; they were ri 

.% 

ht 

what some people view - whether 

as the fact that 

;23: him get a JO 

or wrong - 

at the same time that he mig i 

ou were helping 

t be a witness 

; 2 4 1 against the President, correct? 

I?j; A That’s correct. 

Page 180 Page 183 

[II Q Is it your testimony, sir, that in Ii ht of that 

[: ~experience. that the fact that B 

r3:job and then you later leame rK 

ou were helping onrca get a 

that she was a witness in a 

[4: case involving the President, that that later addition of 

[s:mfonnation - that she was a witness in a case against the 

[ 6 1 President - had no bearing whatsoever on your attitude 

[7:of how you 

.&= 

rcerved 

iejhergetajo ? 

your being involved in helping 

A Yeah. The Webb Hubbell circumstance and the 

[ :ii Monica Lewinsky circumstance are not comparable, number one. 

!l:j Number two, make whatever ‘ud ment you want to 

[z 1 make about m effort to hel 

[13 1 absolute1 

~ 2. my friend 

no 

g WeibHubbell. rthad 

~141 had with 

mg to do wrt a conversabon that I may have 

mbassador Richardson, who was ambassador to the 

[ 15 1 United Nations. 

!I61 Q Okay. My question, sir, once again is: Is 

(1: 1 it your testimony. srr - and lets not focus on 

;ls;Ambassador Richardson. Lets focus on you. 

i-. 

.- A What date? 

1;: 30th. 

Q 

We’re 

Lets look at the da s leadin up to December 

r9 

oin to culminate wrt Decem 

WYSENBERG: 

.K % er 30th. 

M 

! l’ into a length period? 

Can I just Inquire: Are we getting 

:F’ MA. BIENERT: 

,_: FOREPERSON: 

It will take a few minutes yeah. 

I think we better take a break. 

;._ 

.:. MR. BIENERT: Okay. 

FOREPERSON: Fifteen minutes. Mr. Jordan. vou can 

: :! : be excused and have a break. 

I 

. . . : 

.--_ THE WITNESS: Thank 

.._. 

.--. 14 kreak was taken from 3y 

ou. Thank you so much. 

.ll p.m. until 3:27 p.m.) 

. . _. .-; 

I’ 4: MR. WISENBERG: Let the record reflect the witness 

ifs- had reentered the Grand Jury room. Madame Foreperson, do we 

:; 6: have a quorum? 

,,-. .A . FOREPERSON: 

MR. WISENBERG: 

Yes, sir, we do. 

::?- 

i I 5: persons present? 

Are there anv unauthorized 

i?” _--. FOREPERSON: No. there are not. 

,..- 

.--. MR. WISENBERG: Thank you. II_. 

_--. FOREPERSON: Mr. Jordan ou are still under oath. 

‘-i _--. THE WITNESS: Thank you,‘?orelady. 

:24. BY MR. BIENERT: 

:z5: Q Mr. Jordan, we’re going to direct our attention to 

_~____ 

Page 178 to Page 183 

Page 181 

I beanng on how you viewed and felt about your being involved 

: I trying to git he;,“,b”b? 

.I 

.; 0 And then is that the reason why it did not 

i-occur to 

. tnat you ater learned - after knowing he was also helping 

‘. her 

7 

ou to notify Ambassador Richardson of the fact 

et a ‘ob - that she was a wdness in a case involvmg 

i 5. the sresident? 

A I am Ambassador Richardson’s friend. I’m not his 

’ ’ lawyer. number one. .-- 

. . . Number two, I made - it never occurred to 

1: me to have this conversation wdh Ambassador Richardson 

: 1 I based on the experience that I had had with Webb Hubbell 

.- _i . and Revlon. Zero. 

. =. 

.-- MR. BIENERT: Okay. 

_. _L- BY MR. WISENBERG: 

.- Q Why wouldn’t d make you a little bit mad to 

:: 5 find out on the 19th that she’s berng subpoenaed and that, 

.-- i-you know, people could view - however unfair you think rt 

‘: : IS. people could view this as another Webb Hubbell-tvpe 

tz: srtuatidn potentially? 

. 

.^_. A It never occurred to me, and I don’t - 

i_iidon’t spend much time etting ang ty 

ou know, I 

think 

::;: I have to do. I do what 9-- x 

::s:my life. 

think IS ng 

I just do what 

t and get on about 

Page 182 

. . And so I - I did not -Webb Hubbell came to me 

is’one way; Monica Lewinsky came to me another way. East is 

: 3 : east and west is west and ne’er the twain shall meet. I 

:;:- I had no roblem with it. 

:5‘ & Our indication. as I told you earlier, is the 

: 6 f Presidents lawyer in the Jones case knew b December 5th 

:--that Monica Lewinsky was on the witness IIS .YAnd knowing 

: E :that. assuming that - and I don’t know if you knew it until 

: :‘we told it to you here - that means 14 days before you found 

:I : : out she was subpoenaed. the Presrdent’s lawyer knew she was 

::I : going to potentially be subpoenaed, that she was on the 

: 1: wdness lat. 

Doesn’t that tick you off a little that no one had 

: :; : the courtesy to let you know? 

.-- A Doesn’t bother me I’m a big boy. 

: 1 E BY MR. LERNER: 

.- Q 

._:: A 

Do you know a woman named lsabelle Watkins? 

1: i Watkins? 

lsabelle Watkins does not ring a bell. lsabelle 

._^. 

.-- Q An assistant to the UN ambassador, Mr. Richardson. 

A I don’t - I don’t - I don’t know her to know that 

ii! : she is lsabelle Watkins. 

__ BY MR. BIENERT: .^ . . Q Okay. Lets look at December 30th. But first of 

it; : all, sir, lets go to your calendar. Is it accurate - 

___ ~._ -_ 

OlCStan 
1822 

Page 184 

[: -December 30th. What I’d first ask you to do is just to grve 

: I i us the status of the fact that you were out of town - or 

:-^. 

i II i 

Q 28th. Yes, sir. And then continuin to the next 

P 

age. which includes Tuesday, December 30th. B 

: :? : hat, sir7 

0 you see 

:I?: A Yes, sir. 

. “. Q All right. Is it accurate, srr. that during the 

iii: time frame. Thursda !L6j A 

;17: Q 

Tuesr&%?%%%~~ %.“~%> minute. 

The page before. 

;I?: A Thursday, the 28th. Right. 

1’9: Cl Up until through Monday - 

‘-‘5‘ .- 2 A Thursday IS not the 28th. 

,_. Q Oh, it’s a bad - I’m looking here - it’s 

i;s;Thursday. December 25th -Christmas Day. 

ir3i _ A Yeah. 

0 It’s from Christmas Da through Monda 

i:tiDecember 29th, that you were not in hashington - at cast 

as* Vernon Jordan, S/5/98 

Page 187 

. __ _ ._ ., 

: -25mrnute ca between 

place at appFoxrmately 

\ g-which is, I be eve, IS your residence 

A Yes. 

.-. 

: 3 ‘were 

Q 

back 

So that would have been a phone call, once YOU 

In Washrngton on the 30th. in the momrng. betw&n 

: >:yourself and the President, while you were at home, correc? 

:1: A Mm-hmm. 

,. . 

_--. BY MR. LERNER: 

.-- Q Hadn’t you ju,st testfied. thou 

: 12: back in theAa?E;yhg; That s what I was a II ?t 

h. that you ca-e 

le - 

r. .-2. 

[IJ: 0 I thought the testimony was that you returne: 

: ~6. to Washington in the afternoon on December 30th: IS 

::-:that correct? 

,-:. 

-. A I returned to Washinoton Mondav afternoon. 

1 I 1 based on your calendar. And I don’t know if you have a 

Page 185 

rzjdifferent recollection. 

A I was in Washin ton. I was here for Christmas I: ichristmas? Christmas? I was 9, ere. 

Q 

I didn’t o away. 

[zjforward to -. 

Okay. Well, then, let’s go a III e further 

d we look at the ent 

17 1 Saturdav. the 27th. and I r 

for, R looks like 

believe he bottom of oaae is 

1 e j usually Sunday. 

. _ 

It sa 

[ :,‘I number. And r, hen rf we carry over to Monday, December 29th, 

s “St. Regis conference.” and it gives a 

[II 1 it says “Conference,” and I see, “NYC.” 

A Yeah. What that means, that’s confirmation. 

Ii;:That’s the confirmation number for the St. Regis hotel 

: 14 J in New York. 

;:5: Q Okay. Do you believe that you were in New YOI 

;lsiduring those two days? 

“7, 

i;~js 

A I went to New York on Sunday, and I spent from 

FQ 

ent from 2:30 Monday morning until about noontime at the 

ii9; utgers University Law School in their moot courtroom in a 

;zo:film with Matt Damon, where I was filming a movie called 

rz::The .~~. Rounders. 

r-17 It’s my second movie, Counselor. The first movie I 

i_;jwas in was The Gingerbread Man,, where I was a la 

;:4jThe Rounders. I was promoted to ludge. And so I sa wF: with ln 

rzj;Martin Landau and Ted Etheridge in a three-judge court, where 

* 

-I 

Page 186 

Q Okay. And then the first day back in Washington 

i ij after berng in New York on those two days would have been the 

: 1 o I 30th; is that right? 

.. 5‘ 

.--. Q Oh, sorry. 

!2:- A Is it possible for me to et in a commercial tin -8. ’ 12: i the Grand Jury about my movie, The 

[:z:go see it. But if ou bat 

ingerbread Man? Prase 

our eyes you’ll miss me. 

:23: Q When is + he Rounders comin out? 

[24: A About Christmas time. It migh 9 come out 

[rs:at Christmas. 

MR. WISENBERG: 

Page 188 

A JUROR: It’s old. 

Is The Gingerbread Man out now? 

THE WITNESS: Yeah, it’s come and gone. I’m sorry 

!I] 

i-. 

[3: 

!4:you - 

I:; BY MR. BIENERT: 

(ii Q We’ll be watching at the Academy - 

i’: A You missed it. 

!Ei Q So the momin of the 30th. you had a 

: 3 j25minute call with the Press dg ent. And I’ll come 

[ 1: : back to that In a second. But if we look down the 

ii: : list of Calls. there is a call at 

! 12 1 residence of Peter Straus - 

: : 3 : to your office with a Z-minut 

:::: There IS a similar call to your offkce for one 

! :s.minute, and then at 154 there is a call from Peter Straus’ 

j ;t: resrdence to your office for seven minutes. 

i- Do you see that, sir? 

[l?, A I do. 

ii31 Q All right. Now, do you a ree that as to the 9 42 

[zs;and the lo:02 calls, that you were not a 9 your office, and 

[?I: that those are likely just messages, because at 9:27. you 

!~:were on the phone with the President at your house? 

123: A 

[Zq: Q 

I think that’s logical to conclude. 

But then let’s talk about this call at 154. Now. 

:2s:you were aware that Monica Lewinsky’s mother lived with 

Page 189 

1: : Peter Straus in New York - 

I?; 

;;j Aa Right. - IS that right? 

A Right. 

(5; Q 

[6)was in New York dunng t IS trme 

And were ;ou .awa;, 

[iland begtnnmg of 1998 -she woud stay 

I 3 I Did YOU know that? 

Ms. Lewinsk when 

- the end of 7, 997 

at that residence? 

she 

t;,;; A Yeah. 

0 And do 

g 

ou believe that that seven-minute call 

[ :: :at 154 between Peter traus’ residence - which is where 

1 :z: Monica Lewinsky stays when she’s in New York - and your 

[ 13 1 office would have been a call with you? 

1141 A I believe so. 

Q 

!:z:the President. What did 

Lets go back to the call that morning at 9:27 with 

[:7 jduring that 25-minute cal Y 

ou and President Clinton discuss 

A 

that morning? 

It’s my judgment that December 3Oth we 

i :Ei were talking about most prominently the retention of 

rzoiErskine Bowtes as chief of staff. 

[1?: 0 And this is sort at the time when - as you related 

[zz;to us durk-rg your previous Grand Jury testimony - there was 

123: alot of drscussron about whether Mr. Bowles would stay on 

:z41with the government, correct? 

125; A And other White House personnel matters. If he 

Page 184 to Page 189 
1823 

RS,a _-. Vernon Jordan. 5/S/98 

_ called Mr. Carter? 

Page 190 Page 193 

:. left. who would o, who would come. who would stay. 

.- Q B o you know when rt was or by an 

.:. that that issue with Mr. Bowles had been resolve CK ? 

particular time 

A I thank the first - sometime the first two weeks 

-f .rnto January - like about the second week of January, as 

; : I recollect. 

Q During that cat!, did President Clinton indicate to 

: : j you that he had met with Monrca Lewrnsky? 

3 A He did not. 

_: Q Was there any reference at all about 

: if -Monica Lewrnsky during that call? 

.._. A I don’t thank so. 

: 

.--. Q Can’t rule it out, but - 

,. ,-*. A I don’t rule it out, but I don’t think so. 

.-: Q 

:: z: 154 - the 

All right. Now, let’s fast-forward to the call at 

seven-mrnute call between Monica Lewinsky at 

: : -: Peter Straus’ residence and yourself. 

.--_ 

__ 

A Mm-hmm. 

0 What did you and Ms. Lewinsky discuss during 

i: : j that call? 

A What we were discussin 

i F f f on a continuous basis, and that is whet er or not she was 

i:: :going to get employed. She was still concerned about her 

;:; : possrbilihes for employment. 

._:. 

_--. And as I remember, and as I think I told you 

Page 191 

:::the last time, she was also concerned that her mothers lease 

:; : at the Watergate was going to be up, and she was concerned 

: 2: about where she was 

;; : New York, so she MU ? d get settled. That’s as - that’s 

oing to stay and getting the job in 

: J: how I remember it. 

‘i Q Now, I’m going to represent to you that during 

i’ i the investigation by the independent counsel, we have 

: : -obtained evidence that on the 28th of December, when that 

: 5: WAVE record indicates Ms. Lewinsky went to the White House, 

11:: that she actually exactly met with the President for 

‘1: : approximate1 

1: -discuss the 3 

a half an hour, and that they did 

aula Jones lawsuit. 

. ;: 

--. A I’m not aware of that. 

_:. Q And my follow-up question was: Did Monica 

1: : Lewrnsky, at any time durin the seven-minute call that she 

-5 .. had with 

Y 

ou. in any way in %. rcate that she had met with the 

: -. Presiden or conferred in any wa with the President about 

-_ = -either the job situation or about t K e Paula Jones lawsuit? :‘ --. A 

- - sayin 

I have no recollection of her talking about - 

__ 

B 

to me anything about a visit with the President on 

1: the2 th. 

Q You indicated that you feel confident that 

: I -Ms. Lewinsky discussed the ongorng job situation and her 

_i - -desire to get a job in New York during that seven-minute 

I 5. call. correct? 

Page 192 

- A Yes. .^. 0 Do you also believe or think that it is possible 

‘: .that she may have attempted to discuss with you anything 

4. related to her legal srtuatton - namely, as a witness 

: : in the Paula Jones case? 

.T A She had a lawyer by that time. And I don’t - I 

- don’t recollect any conversation that she would have had with 

’ : me about her leqal situation 

? I had Secured her lawyer. She was - 

.. _--_ -‘Frank Carter was her lawyer. And I think that our 

‘1: conversation was about whether or not I was successful at 

i 1: i getting her a job in New York. 

,- 3. 

_--_ 0 Well, if you look down at call No. 5, sir - 

,. . _-I. 

.- 

,--_ 

:- Aa Yeah. - ou’ll notice that at 154. it was the 

._‘. -I -.seven-minute cal 7. with you, and then seven minutes after 

: : - : 154 would bring us up to 2:Ol. ;. 

.-- A Yeah. 

Q And you’ll notice, sir, that the 2:Ol entry 

ii: ’ reflects a gll fr~‘s,you to Frank Carter. 

._. 

_--. 

[:I: Q 

- ; 

:_ A Thi&-six 

Do ou see that, sir - a very short call? 

seconds. 

Q And’do ou agree that these records would suggest 

i! i : that as soon as you go ty off the phone with Ms. Lewinsky, you 

Page 190 to Page 195 

XMAX(32.W) 

A Yes. 

Q Why would you call Mr. Carter after getting off the 

;-phone wrth Ms. Lewrnsky? 

A : My susprcton IS that I caked to see how things 

: i: were goin 

8 Does the fact that you called Ms. Lewrnsky’s lawyer 

! s j- who obvrcusly was dealrng with her legal srtuation. as 

: 3 -opposed to her ‘ob seeking situation, correct’ 

. 

.--. A (kodding.) 

f !z ‘Ms. Lewinzky make you believe tha 

- shortly after gettin 

9 

over the phone with 

it IS more lrkely that 

:::.Ms. Lewinsky did make statements to you or. at least, attempt 

-. ‘. to talk to you In some de 

[ :; : tn the Paula Jones case. 4 ree about her status as a witness 

-- ;‘ .--. A I don’t recollect whether It was - I don’t 

:: -. recollect a conversation about her status as a wetness. 

I tend to follow throu h. and I called Frank 

iI;iCat-ter. I did not get Frank Ca r? er, as this ttmespan, or 

::: : length of tail indicates. ,^. . Q DO you know whether there was anything specific 

ifiithat you were attemptin 

iJ 

to ask Frank Carter? 

‘-3‘ 

_--. A Not that can 

i-^;: Q 

- not that I can recall.no. 

Now, let’s go back to the call that has the 4 next 

:::.to it -which actually, I guess, is the fifth call down. 

Page 194 

But it also was a 

i: f from your line at 

myo tA;G\;p;;z;; ;?_a call 

Do you see that, sir? 

:w 

:i Q ‘A% do you notice that the call that’s marked No. 3 

I- 

:_ 

!- namely, the call from Monica Lewinsky to you - that was 

.: :a seven-minute call - is on the same phone and at the same 

‘3 j time as the call at 154 from you office to the White House? 

: 1: : Do you see that, sir? 

. c--_ A Right. ..^ Q And you’ve indicated to us that your phone does 

t I: i have the capability to do conference calls, correct? 

.-7. A Yes. 

..=. 

.-- Q Who were you speaking to at the White House at the 

: : E : same time that you had a conversation with Ms. Lewinsky? 

,___ 

,- A I have never been on a tele 

-8 

hone conversation ‘. 1 - a three-way conversation with the Press ent and 

i 1 i j Monica Lewcnsky, if that is what I understand your 

::::intention to be. 

[Zl‘ Q Well, actual1 

::I-Who, if an one, other than 

m question is broader than that 

‘-:’ ,--. )I, 

K;$ eresrdent? 

Nobody that I know of. 

,-.. Q Who would you have been speaking to on the 

t!;: telephone on the same line at the same time as you were 

::.on a call with Ms. Lewinsky? 

Page 195 

.-: 

.-, A Well, I - I cannot attest to that it was at the 

: 3 : same time. I realize these time lines are the same, .but I 

::: would not have been in a telephone conversation with anybody 

~5‘ 

,P 

Ius the Presrdent of the United States. When I’m talking 

!G; o the President of the United States, I’m talking to the 

.T: President of the United States, as far as I know. 

1:: Q Well, let’s delete the President of United States. 

: 3: Is there anyone that you could have ever been on a 

[ 1:: conversation with on the phone - not counting the 

[ :I: President - while 

[:z:Monica Lewinsk 

ou were also talking to 

[121 A T e answer to that is no. 

[:4! Q Lets assume for a second that, perhaps because of 

[ 15: your phone - because as you indicated. and I’ll certarnly 

[ 1 I; agree, I’m no expert on how the phones work, either. 

[:7: To the degree that the phone system is such 

r:s;that rather than both calls - all three parbes bein 

::g:a conference call at the same time, if the phones 3. 

on 

rnes 

!?s-are such that one person could be on hold while you were 

i-: jspeaking to someone else, do you have any idea who you 

:~!might have been talking to at the White House while 

;~?:you had Ms. Lewinsk 

t; 

on hold? 

[-‘: A Well,, t e assumption that Ms. Lewinsky was on 

r:;: hold is an assumption on your part. and I cannot speak to 

-___ oicstarr 
1824 

I.21 Vernon Jordan. 515198 

Page 196 Page 199 

.:. that. I don’t know who was on hold, and I do not know - I 

- .can attest to the seven-mrnute telephone conversation with 

.:-MS. Lewrnsk I think that IS absolutely ri 

Vdo I was talking to for 3 menu a es and 12 seconds, 

ht. 

: ; : I do not know, and I do not - I mean, I cannot help you 

: 6 : with the concurrence of these two calls, except to tell you 

.-: that with 

‘5 : conversa P 

reat assurance that I was not on a three-way 

Ion with anybody. 

.i 

’ ” 

Q If the case was not a three-way call - namely, 

f I I -r 

ou had an individual call with Ms. Lewinsky, and sometime 

hereabouts you had a separate call with someone at the 

:: ‘White House at 456-1414. who do you believe that would 

i I!. have been with? 

_. 

:Ii:President. 

A I think it’s safe to assume that it’s the 

But I do not know the answer to that. F: Q 

f :’ : relation to Ms. 

And if it was the President, it would have been in 

Lewinsk ? 

,. :- 

.-- A I doubt i ty But I don’t know. It could have been. 

. .-f Q When you say you doubt it, why do 

.^^. A I doubt it because my recollection o Y 

ou doubt it? 

where we 

::I Iwere on the 25-minute call the next morning - my judgment 

Ifi i is that this was a continuation of that call or some 

; 2 3 : development therefrom. 

~?;; I do not believe that - although I do not know, I 

[?s:cannot tell you precisely that there was no conversation 

: ‘talking to somebody at the White House where you had 

::.Ms. Lewrnsky on hold? On any day do you remember 

-3. anything like that happening? 

::‘ A The latter is more like1 It is very doubtful 

.5 i that I had somebody on hold at the White House while I was 

: h.talking to Ms. Lewinsky. 

.-. Q In the latter situatron. where ou would be talkin 

: 3 j to someone at the White House and have tv7 s. Lewinsky on hol % ,

.3:do you recall who that would have been - if you have 

-. T any recollection? --. 

.. > 

t ::iof courtes 

A I have no recollection of that. I try. as a matter 

::! notion tha !I 

not to keep anybod on hold, if I can. But the 

she IS on hold while 1: m talking to somebody in 

.-:.the White House to check something out and then 

P 

ettmg back 

1 Ijlto her -- ridiculous. And I thought that was the Imp ication 

::-;;of your question, and that’s why I answered it that way. 

_, Q Yeah,. but I had - maybe I misunderstood. I 

1 igjthought it was more lrkel 

:: 3 1 you’re talking to the Whi Y 

that she would be on hold while 

:I: 1 at the White-l-louse - 

e House, rather than have someone 

::?I A Yeah. Making the point that I don’t think you keep 

‘3: I the White House on hold. 

i:3j Q Right. 

::41 

,- “5; t %$t? But are you saying also that you don’t 

Page 197 

:: : about Monica Lewinsk 

: I ; continuation of the cal ly 

It is my judgment that it was a 

Q 

of earlier in the morning. ~2. Now, in terms of then making a follow-up call to 

.; i Frank Carter, why would you make that follow-up call? 

A I cannot answer that, except that it is - it is 

iz 1 ma be a direct result of my havin 

:-. an l! 9, 

talked to Monica Lewinsk 

felt some need to talk to Fran Carter. What need was, 7 

‘i~do not know. What I can assure was that it’s a call to say, 

‘ii”Have you done one two, three, four, five?” It may have 

:i::been a call saymg, “Frank, how are things going?’ The 

-:::fact is I did no ta k to him. ,.^ Q In any of your calls - is it accurate that 

I f<iyou’ve indicated that at least some of the calls, while 

1. .. 

:I;: X ad been referred b 

ou can’t remember particular ones after Ms. Lewinsky 

: :;: conversations with t K 

you to Mr. Carter, that you had some 

e President, where you just updated 

:: -: him on what you knew, both on the job front or the fact 

: : 3 : that Mr. Carter was representing Ms. Lewinsky? 

::j: A That’s safe to sa .^_. 

:Fi:Mr. 

Q Do you believe t X at you might have called 

Carter at any time in response to any inquiry or 

:I:: uestion that the President had for you after 

9, 

ou had given 

: I 3 : t e President an update on what you knew a z out the situation? 

A Yeah, there was no circumstance under which I 

iF;iwas an intervener between the President and Frank Carter as 

Page 200 

:: 1 think you would have had her on hold - 

;_I, ,-, In any circumstance - 

:3! 

; 

A 

- whrle you were talking to - 

!a: - because I try not to ut people on hold. 

[5i A JUROR: Excuse me. e ou were asked earlier about 

[ ~;the possibility of switching between lines. And the only 

I 7 j reason I bring this up, sir, is that if someone is on 

7 

our 

2 1 line. and YOU put them on hold. YOU can’t use that me to 

isitake another &II. 

-7 11 .-I_ THE WITNESS: That’s right. 

... I .--, A JUROR: Or call out. 

1-1 -- 1 THE WITNESS: That’s right. 

:13: A JUROR: So the onl 

I A 1 calls on that one line is b 

way that you could have two 

a mrsta 

.:51 MR. WISENBZRG: 

l e In trme. 

Either a mistake in time or a 

::75jconference - 

.> ‘j A JUROR: Or a scheduled conference - a scheduled 

::: lconference call, not one that you patch through on the same 

: 9 i line. Someone can schedule a conference call and call YOU UP 

‘zoiand patch the other party in. And then it may show up as two. 

:z:.phone calls on the same line. :^-. 

.--, BY MR. WISENBERG: 

“3’ Q But you never had a conference call involving 

i I4 ; Ms. Lewinsky; is that correct? 

:z51 A I’ve testified to that. 

Page 198 

.^^. 

.--. MR. WISENBERG: Can I ask a question, Tom? 

(11‘ 

.__: 

MR. BIENERT: Mm-hmm. 

.--_ BY MR. WISENBERG: 

1-2. Q Mr. Jordan, do you remember any occasion where you 

iz;iwere talkin to Ms. Lewinsk on the phone while you had 

: 2:: somebody 9 rom the White I-I ouse on hold, or where you were 

Page 201 

,. , _-! A JUROR: So then there’s confusion here on time 

I 2 1 and phone calls. 

MR. BIENERT: And 

;: i follow-up - and then we’ll certain P ymake 

erhaps what we can do as a 

- throu h your 

1s jattorney, we’ll advise him of what we come up WI % We’ll go 

I 6 1 back and double-check these records. and we’ll get the source 

~7 idocument to make sure that there’s not some sort of error. 

'91 A JUROR: If there’s a scheduled conference call. 

: 9 i it will be on the records of the phone company that set 

::o,it up. 

,111 .--1 BY MR. BIENERT: 

::?I Q Okay. Well, we’ll make a note to do that, and what 

: ~3 11’11 do, Mr. Jordan, is just as a courtesy to you, once we 

! 141 have checked them, we’ll not onl 

::s]what we found, but 1’11 call your a g 

confirm to the Grand Jury 

omey and let him know. 

Iit51 A Thank ou. 

:I:] MR. WISEdBERG: That’s all I had. 

;I81 BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q And that’s double-check - I just want to put a 

~~~~note. That’s 12/30 calls at 154. Okay. 

And then I think I know your answer to this but I 

ig:iwant to make sure we ‘ust et it on the record. The sixth 

:r31call listed there - at 5: 1 4, t 8 ere is a call from you, or 

~34 1 our phone to UN ambassador William Richardson’s 

~251 Y will once again give you the admonition that that aw 

OlCStarr Page f96 to Page 201 
me* __-. 

1825 

Vernon Jordan, 515l98 XMAX(YYl 

Page 202 

n--zer is the number of hts executive assistant. It’s a 

jl.th~*fflinute call. 

I:- I take It from your other answers that your 

i:.tes:.-ony would be you did nqt in any, way discuss with 

!::Arrassador Richardson Monica Lewmsky, correct? 

r A That is correct 

,-. Q Do you know what you would have disctissed with him, 

is:or A-at would have been the topic of discussion during :r.at 

-stha: XII? 

: _ : A I think that is an effort between secretaries to 

If!iwc-< 3ut a breakfast bme for RichardSon and myself, wk.0 

::::tom Dlace sometime In Janua r - which $0, have a record of 

;:3:anz .v?lch we talked about the ast ttme t at I was here. 

Q Correct. And I’ll represent to you it was - 

i 1:: at ast. accordina to the calendars, it was January 6th .--. 

.::G:at E a.m. 

.._. 

.- BY MR. LERNER: 

:. 2‘ Q If I could rust ooint out. Mr. Jordan: You ciaced 

1 iii the tall. nz yo~~;cretdry ’ 

120; 

Q And’this is actually the line of lsabelle Watkins, 

;2:lwho you previous 

[23: have been calling 

testmed you don’t know, but 

:f:ilJ.S ambassador! 

er in order to get through to t 8 

ou might 

e 

[?5! A And I can’t - I can’t make it out here, but we had 

Page 203 Page 206 

;;;breakfast at the Waldorf Towers - 

Q Right. on the 6th of January? 

i3j at 8 o’clock on January - it’s blotted out - 

:aiJanaty 5ph or&h. 

15: BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q Yes, sir. I fact - yeah, I see what you’re 

I;!sayzg. And I can 

[3iincmte it was on .I 

‘ust confirm to you that his records 

anuary 6th. 

[5; A Yeah. Good. 

:10: 0 Okay. That’s all I have on the 30th. Let’s - 

::1: BY MR. LERNER: 

‘12’ 0 I just had a sort of quick kind of recap - I mean, 

il3jwhe-e we are ori December 30th. 

December 11 th. you made the phone calls to assist 

iiz;Ms Will you in her job search. 

December 22nd. you’ve assisted her in her concerns 

‘i;:abcb? the subpoena. You’ve assisted her in terms of finding 

;;;;aflcz-er larr - a crimmal defense lawyer. 

1::: A 

hy was she calling you on December 30th? 

;*. Q 

She did not have a job. 

.-A. So she was following up? 

..^, A She did not have a job. There was great 

:~;~uncedainty in her life. Her situation at the Defense 

jz3:Decartment had run out. the lease was running out at the 

: 2 5 1 Wazgate. She was trying to figure out what she was 

!i] A That’s correct. 

:1. ,-: Q And do you believe that that was the only 

13 1 topic discussed? 

:4! A I do not believe that was the onl 

r 

topic 

:sjdiscussed. But I am reminded that that was - hat was one 

[6;of the things discussed, and if you remember, a new board was 

~7:sholfty announced subsequent thereto. 

:3i But that was something that was on the President’s 

! s 1 mind. It was somethin 

[:o!And seeing the name r3 

that I promised to help him with. 

avid Rockefeller here ust reminds 

[:I 1 me of that, and I think I have an obligation to ell ou. 

[;I?: Q Okay. Now, going up to Janua 

[ 13 jwe’re going to look at some records from that 

k &h and 

ate. ‘And 

: :: Ionce again, ladles and gentlemen, you should have a 

! 1::summary sheet in January 6th. And this one will be V g 

hone 

J-50. 

;li: You’ll see, ladies and entlemen, that the first 

ii;;g age _ on that actually is the calls 9. 

th 

just referenced on the 

the first entry, I should say - and then we get down 

i?ijto January 6th. 

[??I And first of all, tha! is the morning, sir, that 

;I: :you met w;h Aymebsifssador Richardson, correct - for breakfast7 

;:I?: 

‘23‘ 0 Okay. And what. if anvthina. did vou and the 

j 2 4 /ambassador discuss? 

. I. ~ 

[‘5: A His time at the United Nations, how he liked it, 

Page 204 

: 1: qolrg to do with her life. and I was the linchpin 

i 2 i Tn n5 process - at least she thought so. 

!3i BY MR. BIENERT: 

[li Q 

: 5; up to Janua 

Okay. Turning to the New Year, we’re going to go 

16: I waqt to ma 7 

5th and 6th. And let me just do this, because 

e 

[ 7; so :‘m just goin 

sure - I would like to try to finish by 4:30, 

13 jdoczments on t % 

to ask you. without even getting to 

at, do you know - I’ll represent that 

191 there IS a call at 2: 18 on the 5th from your secretary’s 

:1;315262 to a Lieutenant Logan at the Pentagon. Do you know 

111 Iwho Lieutenant Logan is? 

!I21 A 

i13i 0 

I haven’t the slightest idea. 

So you don’t know what that’s about, correct? 

:14; A I do not. 

[15! Q And then I’d also represent to you that from your 

[ I 6: secztary’s line on that same day at 11:36, there’s a call to 

r~:lthe U.S. mission to the UN, protocol office. Do 

{~a 1 that might J ou believe be related to the upcoming breakfast. 

A This is the day before I’m to have breakfast with 

jii]secretary - I mean. Ambassador Richardson. 

0 

&type of Call? 

And you therefore assume that it was a scheduling 

;23: A Right. 

!?J; Q 

;25!corversation 

Once again. you’re clear that there was no 

- at least. that you were part of - at 

Page 205 

: :-that ::me that had anything to do with Ms. Lewmsky? 

._ A That’s nght. There’s something here that 

: :: refreshes my recollection. and it goes back to the 

:; ‘25mmuteglephone Call. 

‘i’ 

.-. Yes, sir? 

A If you notice on my calendar, it’s Monday. I 

:’ 1 assume that’s Monday the 5th; is that right?? 

Q 

15. A 

Yes, sir. I think the 5th was a Monday. 

Yeah. I went to see David Rockefeller at 3:30 2: 

: : ?; Rockefeller Center. and that was pursuant to a conversation 

: 1:. that I had had wdh the President as we were trymg to 

;:I: recrud people - I was ttym 

9 

to recruit people to 

: :_;: serve on the board of direc ors of the new legal 

[ 1:: defense fund for the President. 

I;5: And I went 

! 1~: President, to see Mr. # 

ursuant to a discussion with the 

ockefeller about serving and about 

[:-: helpm find other people 

3 

- other people to serve. And that 

[I a 1 remin s me of what the other conversation was about, because 

[:3: I see here that I went to see David, and that’s what - 

[z::that’s what. that was about. 

121‘ d And so when you’re referring back to the 

r 2: i 25minute call - 

i23j 

!?1: 

; That’s right. 

- from your residence on the 30th. you believe 

125: that that was one of the topics discussed? 

Page 207 

ii j his as irations beyond that, his relationship with the 

[ 2 ; Secre P ary of State, how he and Barbara liked New York, 

: 3 1 how they liked the 42nd floor of the Waldorf Towers. 

[ 4 1 It was a fun conversation. 

!j’ Q Oka At any time during that conversation, was 

:: i~~e~~~:~~oni~~Lew~nsky? 

- eit er directly or indirectly - that was a 

c31 A No. 

Q And is your answer as to wh you did not on your 

[ :,‘j own accord discuss an hrng about Monica ewinsk 

’ ?-I asswne 

[:: 1 your answer would be t e same as you gave us ear ier. 

1121 .~~, A That is irrict. 

[:31 Q All ri 

P 

ht. 

[ 14 I calls - the series 

Now. let’s your attention to the 

o calls that we have itemized on 

[:slJanuary 6th. And sir, there are 11 calls that were 

[ : 6 1 itemized from the 6th, and I’m going to start going 

[171over them. 

First of all, I’ll represent to you that 

Iizlat 11:32 a.m. there was a page from Frank Carter 

[zojto Monica Le\Linsk ’ 

[z~)Frank Carter at 

ySDaaer$fw’,?$d$ ;~le$~~/one 

[z] number. 2 yo;;;!th$ sir? 

[23! 

0 Then at 2:08 on that day, there is a call 

IZifrom your office - I should say your secretary’s offk-e - 

Page 202 to Page 207 OlC-starr 
RSA --. 

1826 

Vernon Jordan, 515198 XMALISbt 

Page 208 

: : to Monrca Lewinsk ‘s residence - and thts IS the resrdence 

- ‘at the Watergate Hy otel here In Washington - for 1 mrnute and 

: i :48 second;. Dyoeysou see that? 

‘4; 

‘i‘ Q Do vou know what that call would have been about? 

j : B j see that? 

,.-. 

.- 1 A I do. ..^, 

;:G: 

Q Then at 3:38,. there is a call from your line in 

is3! *Y 

our office to Nancy Hernretch. the number you sometimes use 

o call the President, for 2 minutes and 12 seconds. Do you 

L 2: 1 see that? 

[:z?l A 

!?3j Q 

1’31 A 

[251 Q 

$gd;;%’ 

Yes,' I do. 

Then at 3:48. there is a call by you - or I should 

Page 211 

: . ‘thereof - In my conversattons with Mr. Rockefeller In the 

:: recvrtment of people to serve on the board of the new lega 

z.defense fund. 

Cl Lookin 

1 i’ there’s a page by Fran % 

at the pattern of calls and notin 

Carter to Monica Lewrnsky at ? 

tha: 

1 3C 

:i.there’s also a pa 

:-:and rn between t i! 

e at 3 14 from him to Monrca Lewrnsky. 

at. there IS a call in your office to 

: 2: Monica Lewinsky. followed by some other calls there 

:4.between you and Frank Carter and 

::~:did Mr. Carter ever rndrcate to you t r; 

ou and Ms. Lewinsky - 

at he was having 

: I:. trouble gettrng in touch wdh MS Will you? II?. A I think that ml ht have been part of the 

jI:drf%culty. that he couldn’t fin 8 hrs client and may have 

[ 1: .been asking me to assrst hrm In that - in that regard. I 

[15: have some recollection that he was havin some difficulty 

!16: Q When you handed off Ms. ‘i ewrnsky to Frank Caner, 

::-:you made very clear to him that he was her lawyer, 

Y 

ou 

(13 :weren’t. and you also made that clear to her, correc ? 

!?9! A There’s no question about that. But he also knew 

120; that she was in touch with me every day - or as much as 

[: 11 possible - about her job situation. 

[::I So he - so despite the fact that he was her 

[23:lawyer, he also knew - because I told him - that I was 

[ 14: trying to help her get a .ob in New York. 

iz51 So if he was Il. avrng drfficulty, I assume that he 

Page 209 Page 212 

: 11 say our line - a very short call to Monica Lewinsky’s 

: 2 1 rest J ence for 24 seconds. 

(31 Then at 3:49. there is a call - another call from 

I 3 1 your phone to Monica Lewinsky here in Washington, and it 

15 1 shows that that was a 5-minute-and-S&second call. 

!61 

; - 1 thereafter, 

Then immediately after that call. or shortly 

there was a call from your number to 

! 9 1 Clyde Butler. Do you know who Clyde Butler is? 

[ : i i who is 

A 

the 

Clyde Butler is a fundraiser for H. Carl McCall, 

treasurer of the state of New York. 

II: __ 1 Q Okav. I assume that call had nothina to do with 

1 :z jMonica Lewinsky. _ 

A It had nothin to do with Monica Lewinsky. It 

! t: 1 everything to do with Carl 9 cCall. 

..:; Q All right. Then at 4:32. there is a call between 

: ii your number and Frank Carter’s number for a minute and six 

: : 7 1 seconds. Do you see that? 

A -I do. 

:I?: Q At 4:34. there is a call between our 

:: 2 : number and Frank Carter again. and this time Y or 

:I 1: 2 minutes and 30 seconds. Do you see that? .^?. A I do. 

‘131 Q And then, finally, at 5:15. there is a call 

::: 1 from your number to the White House - the main operator, 

: 2 5: that you indicated you often use to call the President - 

Page 210 

: : j for 4 minutes and 6 seconds, correct? 

.^I. 

.-! A Yep. 

.3! Q Okay. Do you a ree with me, sir, that at least on 

i 4 I these calls, there are several di ;t erent efforts to get in 

: 5) touch with Monica Lewinsky that day, both by yourself and 

! 6 1 Mr. Carter. Do ou see that? 

,-1 A ‘ryes I do. 

:a; Q And there were also calls between yourself and 

: i (Frank Carter on that dav. where. at least based on the time. 

: f 3 i it would ap 

R 

ear that you’ spoke, correct? 

!::I 

.--., Q 

That’s right. 

First of all, why were you tying to get ahold of 

i f; i Monica Lewrnsky that da 

i 

? 

“4; A I - I don’t now. Maybe I’m respondin to her 

1 zj! about my efforts. I can’t say what it was about. I’m s F III 

; : 6: trying to find her a job, and so I have to assume that any 

: 17 1 conversations that I may have had with her may have been 

! : 3 1 about her job. 

!I31 Any conversations with Frank Carter had to be, for 

.z o I me. an uodate as to how thinas were aoina. how he was dealina 

12: i with this highly emotional lady filled wifh uiicertainty. And ” 

: 22 1 that’s - that’s about as I can recollect - as best as I can 

‘: 3 1 recollect the extent of it. 

1:4j My call to the White House, I think had to do with 

: 2 5 I a report on my visit to New York and my success - or lack 

[ 11 assumed that I was not havrng difficulty gettin in touch 

i2 Iwith her. That’s the onl assum 

Q If in fat? h P 

tion I can ma a e from that. 

!: {of her, did it strike YOU as odd that he would do that 

e con acted you to try to 3 et ahoM 

isi A No.- 

Q Now if we look at the call at 3:26 between 

jtivourself and Frank Carter. that’s a 6-minute-and-42~second 

isicall. correct? 

19: A Yeah. 

Q And do you feel it’s safe to assume that ou were 

j:Finot discussina in anv detail Your efforts with Mr. Carter Y o 

i~ifind Ms. Lewitisk ajob? _ 

[13i A 

[ 14 1 it. 

I think I may have iven him a status report on 

I will also say to you that my re atronshrp with 

7. 

[ 1 s 1 Frank Carter is such that our conversations are not 

[ 161 necessaril restricted to - or were not necessarily 

117~ restricted ty o the matter of Monrca Lewinsky. There are 

113 ;many, many other things that I could have spoken with him 

[ I 9: about in that six-minute period. 

!ZOi Q Well, but let me ask you this: Based on the fact 

! 2: 1 that. as I count, in that same da there were one, two - 

:zz 1 three calls between yourself an J Mr. Carter of at least a 

[ 2 3 I minute; t,here were one - two calls between yourself and 

[ 2 4 ! MS Lewrnsky of over a minute; and then there was one very 

125:short call from you, whtch appears to be an attempt to get 

Page 213 

[! 1 MS: Lewinsk 

[?I main topic o Y 

- do you ,believe that it is likely that the 

conversatron that day between you and 

[ 31 Mr. Carter was Ms. Lewrnsky? 

141 A My suspicion is - my judgment is that it was a 

[ 5 1 call to her to say, “Monica Lewinsky, your lawyer is looking 

[G]for you. Call him.” 

ii; Mr. 

Q You believe that at some point in these calls 

Carter would have indicated to you that he was having 

[ g!sorne trouble gettin ahold of Ms. Lewinsky. correct? 

I101 A I thin 9, that’s very possible, and my suspicion rs 

[I I 1 that’s what the hone was. 

, 0 bid he indicate that there were any other 

I k jdifficulties with her as a client? 

[14i A Not that I’m aware of. 

Q Did Mr. Carter seem to have any sense of urgency, 

i: zi in terms of the fact that he made clear to you that it was 

[ 17 1 important to him that he talk to her as soon as 

P 

ossible? 

1181 A Yeah. I think he wanted to talk o his client. I 

[ 191 think he wanted to see his client. What it was about, I do 

rzo~not know. It could well have been about the preparation for 

121 lthe affidavit that she ultimately signed. I - I - that’s a 

;:‘lvalid assumption, I believe. 

(231 Q Let me ask ou this, sir: I will represent to you 

114 1 that Ms. Lewinsky indicate J. tn recorded telephone calls that 

[?slwere recorded around this time or shortly thereafter that 

Page 208 to Page 213 
1827 

Page 214 Page 217 

: she had no intention of filing an affidavit or si nmg an 

.I. affidavit tn the Paula Jones case until she ha 1 

: In New York. 

a job 

c. some difficulty in 

-- : attempting to prepare for 

-:. - A The answer is a unequivocal no. 

.: Cl In the several calls that you had with 

: f Ms. Lewinsky, did she ever - let me take this in two steps. 

1 1 Did she ever directly indicate to you that she 

::: wanted her job in New York before she could finish things up 

:I -with Mr. Carter? 

- -1. A Unequivocally, no. 

-I 

--. 0 Now, lookln at it with the benefit of 

_-. -- hindsiqht. clearly. she didn 9 say anything to you 

- A I do not. 

_ 

.-. Q 

A 

Okay. Can you preclude that ou did that? 

.: Q 

I cannot preclude tt. but I doub r it. 

Do 

::all between the fat r 

ou believe that there was any relationshtp at 

that when you got off the phone with 

j i: him, you immediately called Mr. Carter? 

-; 

:<: 

A I do not. 

0 Did you ever conve to the President that 

::.Mr. Carter was having difficulty ge x 

-:::of MS Lewinsk ? 

Ing ahold 

--_ A lydid not. 

--. Q 

:. had an 

Do you know whether or not Mr. Carter ever 

_. communication with Prestdent about the status 

_--_ -of Ms. ‘s being a witness in the case7 

:. not aware of any conversation between 

: 1;: Frank Carter and President Clinton. 

.._; Q 

.:: s f or implied to you that there might be such communication. 

And I take it from that, that no one ever suggested 

.. i‘ A I know nothing whatever about a conversation 

11_ibetween Frank Carter and President Clinton. 

.--. Q Do you know what you spoke with the President 

::::about in that call, or what do you believe you spoke 

:~jwith him about? 

r-4: A An 

r 

number of thin 

;:jjErskine Bowles SI uatlon, the lega 9 

s that were on his mind -the 

defense fund. I may have 

Vernon Jordan, 515198 

i :-. that was that diiect. 

. . _ . 

not 

Page 215 

:: : a 5minute-and-50-second-call. 

._. 

.-. What do you think you were talking to her about at 

: 3 : that point? 

:I- A My suspicion is that I was sayin 

f i i when you have a lawyer, you have to be availa % le for 

to her, “Monica, 

: s : your lawyer.” 

.-. Q And when you indicated to her that it was important 

:: : that she was available to her lawyer, what did she say about 

: 2 -why she hadn’t been available? 

..-- L--_ A Mine was not to reason why. And I just said to 

r. her, “You have a lawyer - ” I’m dealing with a ve 

i If. inexperienced person here. And it’s almost like ta x, 

young 

Ing 

:__ - :. to one of my children. And I said to her, “Your lawyer 

::: is looking for you, I think, and you need to talk to 

; 1 E : your lawyer.“- 

; Cl So it’s your answer that ou don’t recall her 

1 c’j saying anything one way or the other? u; ou admonished 

; 1:. her, correct? 

r. : _-A A Sayin anythin about what? 

(Z:- Q You 8 on? reca 8 her saying anfhing about whether 

:I: : she had, in fact, been available to her lawyer 

.~_. 

.-- A No. 

,^: 

.--. Q Is that accurate? 

i-2 A I think - I think that’s accurate. My job was to 

iIi:say that, “Frank Carter is looking for you. He’s your 

Page 216 

:: lawyer. Get in touch with him.” 

_-. Q And you have no recollection of any protestations 

is. or any excuses on her part? 

:;. 

A I do not. I do not. 

Q Now. I’d also direct vou to exhibit VEJ-52. sir. 

i~‘which is a presidential log IndicatinG a conversation between 

: -: yourself and the President. And if you’ll notice. it’s 

.F Janua 

: >:*Talke 2 

6th. the same day we’re talking about, showing that 

okay.” So you and the President spoke on the phone 

i 1: at 4:19. Do you see that, sir? 

,. . : 

.--. A _ Right. 

!1:- 

j ;-; : time 

Q 

when 

And then you’ll notice that if you’ll look at the 

that conversation ended - 

L-4. 

115: : Mm;hmm. Its 4:32. Do you see that? 

“;‘ L--_ A Isee that. 

I.-. Q And then do you notice that at 4:32, which would 

i I s : correspond to when you got off the phone with the President, 

r:jiyou called Frank Carter and spoke -or at least had a 

; 2 : : conversation with his office for a minute. 

(2 I : that, sir? 

Do you see 

[r:’ A I see that. 1^1: L..-. Q Do 

;:;:during your call wit .Y; 

ou believe that you updated the President 

htm at approximately 4:19 on 

c-5: January 6th about anything in relation to Monica Lewinsky? 

XMAXl36l36) 

Page 218 

continued belief that 

. . . . 

.--. Q 

. . ., 

_--. A 

Who do you believepu.were speakiT to then? 

I assume it was the resident. t coul have been 

:: I: somebody else. 

Q 

I just have to assume it was the President. 

And now this call would have occurred - if it 

i i 1 i was the President then ‘there would have been two calls to 

:: 5: Frank Carter in be’hveen the last time 

: :- ; President that day and the call at 5: 1 Y 

ou spoke to the 

, correct? 

_--. :. A There is no connedion. 

.. 2’ Q Do you believe that you might have discussed in any 

i I ii way anything related to Monica Lewinsky In - 

._. A It’s - it’s - it’s possible that we discussed 

f szc Monica Lewinsky, but there is no connection between my 

::::conversations with Frank Carter and my subsequent 

:I; lconversation with the President of the United States. 

.--. Q Now, you’ve indicated to us that you know that 

Page 219 

:: : there are occasions when you provided information to the 

2 1 President about Monica Lewinskv. correct? 

A Yes. 

:;I Q And you’ve also indicated to us that there w&s at 

5 I least one occasion when vou asked a direct auestion of the 

15 i President about the Moniia Lewinsky, and that was - --1 A On the 19th. 

is] Q Correct, when you met face to face? 

~3: A 

: . Q 

Right. Upstairs in the White House. 

You indicated to us that at least on the occasion 

1 II i when you indicated to the President that you were going to 

: 1: : try to get Frank Carter to represent Ms. Lewinsky, ou 

,113; believe the President might have said something II .): 

1 * 1 “Is he good?” or words to that effect, correct? 

e, 

.-41 

-*i; A Yeah. But I also am confident that the President 

ifi: had confidence in m 

::: :conversations about various things that he would say to me, 

.-:.“How is it going?” And .--. - but thar was never a problem 

Page 214 to Page 219 OlCStarr 
Page 220 

1:: because I tried to keep him -,as I said to you, and as I 

-.sard publrcly,, I tned to keep hrm mmrmally Informed about 

ii :what was gomg on - that she had a lawyer, that I was trying 

;:: to get her a job. 

Q So 

~:;minimally infonne oy 

ou definitely made an effort to keep him 

but It also would strike you as natural 

:‘:that in some of these various conversations you had had 

1s jwith him about vanous toprcs that he mi ht have asked 

ri;vou somethina related to Monica Lewins 9, .~,~ 

A “That’s conceivable. 

Y. 

i:;: _ II 1, ,*-, MR. BIENERT: Now, let me just see where we are 

11:: MR. WlSENBERG: I have a question. Can I ask rt 

;:3:real quick? 

[id: MR. BIENERT: Yes. 

::5: MR. WlSENBERG: 

116: MR. BIENERT: 

Mr. Bienert. do you mind? 

No not at all. 

ii-’ .- , BY MR. WISENBERG. 

[:S: Q This goes back a little bit to - somethin you 

:~s;said about Mr. Rockefeller artially prompted this ques ton. 

[?Ol Let me ask you, hr. Jordan: At any time beieen 

1: 11 last fail and Januarv o 1998 were you attempting to raise 

i’:imoney to rttlin the Paula Jones,case? _ 

i?77 l?l e answer to that IS no. 

Q Did ou evertell anybod that you were doing that? 

A No. yBut I was willing to Jo it. 

Page 221 Page 224 

1:; Q You just never - no one asked you to do it, and 

[ 2 1 you didn’t do it? 

j3: A No need to raise it, when there is no settlement. 

Q Oka 

Iliof calls on the 6th t ; 

You do agree, do you not, that this pattern 

at Mr. Bienert has asked you about - 

[ 6; including - just the wa 

I 7 ! outaoina 13-minute ca x 

that they line u including this 

from the Press .$I ent to you - it’s 

:;: A 

Q 

I think that’s a reasonable assumption. 

Okay. Do 

i; i during one of these calls t z 

ou believe that it would have been 

at you would have Indicated 

: 4 1 to the President that Ms. Lewrnsky had, in fact, signed 

: sithis affidavit? 

:&; A That, too, is a reasonable assumption. 

171 Q As best you can recall what exactly would you have 

: 2: - whenever the conversation occurred, walk us through 

: 9: what exactly you would have said on the portion of the 

: :g 1 conversation that related to Ms. and the affidavit. 

11: Istriking to me. It may be striking to those of you who have Monica Lewinsk 

rizlother purposes in mind. 

(13: MR. WISENBERG: 

1 ; ii;: BY MR. BIENERT: 

That’s all I have right now. 

Q I’d ask if you’d look at your calendar on 

::;:January 7th. 

::;j A (Wrtness complies.) 

,;:?I Q And I’ll take you back - and just b way of 

! 19; reference, it’s my recollectron that when you testi .fy red 

~ZO! before, you indicated that you know there was a time - 

c::;and ou ut it around Janua 

:2?; whe XI er Rl s. Lewinsky indica ed to ou and actually tried 

r 7th i 8th: I believe - 

;:3:to show you a signed copy of the a rdavrt. Do you recall 

: 2 4 that, sir? 

:?5: A Ido. 

Page 222 

i?’ Q And what I’m trying to do is just figure out if we 

[ 2 j can pin down the day on that. And I - 

‘3: A It was January 7th. 

I4; Q Okay. _ 

A 

tzithe affidavit. 

It was her third visit, and she showed me 

r-l] Q And now, by the way, based on what we went 

[ 3 1 over today, I guess it’s ossible 

[sj- if, in fact, you met wit -e, 

it was her fourth visit 

her also in the first week 

[ i o 1 of November. 

A Well we’ve established that we met with her in the 

i : 1 i first week of November. 

L13i Q Okay. Then the first visit would have been the 

[ 14 1 first week of November. The second visit would have been 

I 15 IDecember 11 th? 

i’61 I A Right. 

Q The third visit would have been December 19th. The 

I :i j fourth visit, I guess technically, was on the 22nd, but just 

[I 9; to bring hei to Er&arter. 

17il! 

L--l 

[2li a %&ow, this would have been potentially a 

rzjfifth visit, correct? 

A When she brought me - showed me the affidavrt 

[i:jAnd then on the 12th. or somewhere between the 12th and the 

(25; 15th. she came by, and that’s when she brought me the tie. 

Page 223 

Q Oka 

-‘.would have met wit K 

So your best remembrance is is that you 

her on the 7th. and that’s when she 

-i.would have indicated that she did, tn fact, srgn this 

: i : affidavit. correct? 

A I think that’s right. 

‘L Q And I think you indicated to us before that you 

‘-i know that you conveyed that both to Betty Cume and to the 

: 4. President - namely, that you knew Ms. Lewrnsky had signed 

ii.the affidavit. 

_: 

.--_ A Right, 

.--. Q 

-:z.was. correct? 

But you couldn’t recall exactly when that 

:,.; 

_--, A Mm-hmm. .-_l> &--, 0 Do you see that sir? 

I-3; A Mm-hmm. 

:z4; 0 Do you believe it is like 

‘K 

that either or both of 

: z 5 1 the those calls were between you and t e President? 

the President - about the fact that there was 

::j:even an affidavit berng considered? -1 *, .-=1 A I don’t -,I would not be negative about that. 

. . 2; 

.--, 

AQ yo,k, tf$g;r,l don t - 

I would think that somewhere in 

: : s I the course of the conversatio’n that I may have told him that 

:: o: there is an affidavit in process. 

.-- 1 Q Would you ever have conveyed to the President, in 

~~~{generality or specifics, that the nature of the affidavit 

: I 3 : would be along the lines of that there was no sexual 

:: 4 ; relationshi between the President and Ms. Lewinsky? 

‘-5’ 

.- 2 g I think that’s a reasonable assumption. 

Page 225 

:11 Q So that when we fast-forward to - lets say if it 

:: Iwas January 7th. or whenever it was that you informed hrm 

: 3 1 that she signed the affidavit, is it accurate that based on 

: 4 1 the conversations ou had with him already, you didn’t have 

: 5; to explain to him w K at the affidavit was? 

;e: A 

‘-1 Q 

I think that’s a reasonable assumption. 

So that it would have made sense that 

13 i have just said, “She signed the affidavit,” because bot l 

ou would 

: gland he knew what the affidavit was? 

you 

::!J1 A I think that’s a reasonable assum tion. 

. . . , Q All right. When 

f 1; ; that she had signed the afftdavr 1 

ou indicated to P he President 

;;3lhe tell you? 

, what, if anything, did he 

A I think he - his ‘udgment was consistent with mine 

i iii that that was - the signing of t c e affidavit was consistent 

::.61with the truth. 

iIT1 Q 

A 

And how would he have conveyed that to you? 

itii”Fine, good” 

I - I - I don’t - I don’t recollect. He said, 

-whatever. I don’t know. 

:201 Q Would there have been any other discussions - 

!2l] A There was no elation. There was no celebration. /_o. >--, 0 

; 2 3 1 spoken 

Okay. Was there any discussion - any other words 

- about Monica Lewinsk 

[:4 ;conversation where you informe g, 

rn any respect, dunng the 

I 2 5 1 the affidavit? 

hrm that she has signed 

OlCStarr Page 220 to Page 225 
1829 

Vernon Jordan, 515198 XMAXIWJr’Si 

Page 226 

A I’m - I’m sure I said. “I’m still workmg on 

.; her Job. _ 

i And what. d antihina. did he sav to that? 

i- 

. 2 “G&od_“~ ’ - 

.=. Q Now. if we look at 9:26 p.m. on the 7th, there’s 

ii’another =all - at _. least .---. from - I think. vour secretarv’s 

;--line,- to Mr. Cadet’s nuniber and it’s ’ 

::a 3-mln;:e-and I-30-second call. Do you’see that? 

,:- 

_,. 

,. _. 

2 Yeah. Right. _ 

1 I : : least re,a:;velv 

Okay. And that was late at ni ht - or at 

late at night, and I believe the 5 th 

“-‘was a Wedr&dav. Let me check that (examining document). 

Page 227 Page 230 

r-. Q Were you aware that there was an 

,A i the time that the affidavit was si ned - namely, g 

time lag between 

3 

a out the 

: 3 : 7th - and the time that it was a ually filed? 

[<‘ 

,;: 

A No, I’m not. 

0 Did Ms. Lewinsky ever indicate to 

r 

ou at the time 

izishe showed you the affidavit that she hadn’t yet p anned on 

- -giving it to Mr. Carter? .:.- - i-, A No. 

;>: Q Did Mr. Carter indicate in that call on the night 

[: ;: of the 7th whether he actual1 had the affidavit? 

,. ,I-_ A I cannot attes Y to that. I don’t know the answer 

.z:to that. 

::3: Q 

I:;:the 8th. 

All right. Now, let’s look at the calls on 

<.: 

.--. A Monday mornin 

[:F: Q Yes, sir. Is tha P 

: : -: believe Monda was the 5th. 

Monday, or is that Thursday? I 

iii. A {he 8th is Thursda 

;.: Q Okay. Now, if we ook at the calls on the 8th - 

: _ G. we do vou have that? 

lyV 

right. 

Is that already on the batch that you 

ill 

[21 

Aa That’s the call. 

A 

- Mr. Perelman about Ms. Lewinsky. correct? 

[31 

Q 

I said, WIII you look into this?” 

[41 All ri ht. Is it accurate, sir, that the call just 

[ ~;B”b~~~~t$‘,t$~~~~ at with MS Lewinsky would have been 

,_,~ ~~~ 

i71 ‘A Absolutely. 

!81 Q 

131 A 

What do you recall her telling, ou in that call? 

;lolto happen? When is it going to ha pen? And I think It was 

;I 11 in m own frustration that I called 

:I: lyou Kelp?” 

Another frustrated ill abtut, hen is jt going 

on Perelman to say, “Can 

0 And why don’t you ex 

P 

lain that to us. First of 

i 1: 1 all, Ron Perelman is the main guy - he head of - 

1151 A He is the chairman and chief executive officer of 

f IC! McAndrews 8 Forbes. 

,171 0 Which owns Revlon. 

iI3j A Which owns Revlon. 

1191 0 So he would have been as high as it gets in the 

1 x 1 company where you - 

[?:I $ Can’t get any higher - or any richer. 

- In the company that you had called 

iz; 1 Mr. Halperin earlier? 

i241 A That’s ri ht. 

1251 Q Why di 8 you choose to call Mr. Perelman at that 

iii:have. &r? 

,-- A Yeah. 

.--. Q No, I don’t believe Mr. Jordan has that. 

.-, 

,-- A There are no calls - this is for the 7th. 

I_): Q Yes, sir. Okay. Here we go. It’s going to be 

Page 228 

: : -VEJ-55. Let’s see if I can find my cop .^. All right. Now, on this day, t 1 ere’s an 11:50 a.m. 

ii call from Peter Straus’ residence in New York - where 

:I “Monica Lerlnsk stays - 

.: hx m-hmm. 

:_. 2 Right. 

- to your office for one minute, correct? 

_ 2 Q Then there’s a call at 3:09 from that same 

i ; residence to your office for one minute, correct? 

[:Z’ A Right. /. Q Then there’s a call at 4:48 from that residence to 

i is i your office for five minutes? 

i131 MR. WISENBERG: We need to correct the record 

[ : 4 : on something. I apologize for interruptin 

; : 5 : were Just referenctng on January 7th tha PZoU. t e last you call 

::,:the night-the last call, No. 7. was a 9:26 p.m., call to 

i :- : Frank Carter attome 

[li: Mk. BIENl!RT: Mm-hmm. 

r:; MR. WISENBERG: 

i 2 2 i 9:26 a.m. call. 

And that’s a misprint. That’s a 

121: MR. BIENERT: Okay. 

[ZZ. MR. LERNER: There’s a three-and-a-half-minute 

;:::phone call in the mornin ,^ THE WITNES 

;s;:That’s nice to know. 

3 : So I was not in my office at 9:26. 

Page 229 

: 1 : BY MR. BIENERT, 

.^, Q Okay. The fact that the call may have occurred 

r;yearlier in the day, does it change at all - i;. A No. 

‘5: Q I guess the status IS still the same, in terms of 

:E;what you belleve would have been discussed? 

F-1 _ A Yeah. 

19i Q Now we’re up the to 8th, and there’s three calls 

[ 1; from presumably Ms. Lewinsky at Peter Straus’ residence to 

:o 1 your offke. Do you see that? 

:,(.- .-Al A ldo 

;:2] Q And then at 4:48 in the afternoon, there’s a 

: :3 I five-minute call between you and Ms. Lewinsky. Do you 

( ; 4 1 see that? 

[!j! A Right. 

1161 Q And then approximate1 five minutes after that call 

::: 1 beains. there’s call from your office to ‘fi on Perelman. Do 

; Is j yoii remember that? ’ 

Yeah. 

And that would have been a minute and 42 seconds. 

i?;icorrect? 

i221 A Uh-huh. 

Q And would that have been, sir, the call - I think 

~~~~you went over it with us last time, but when you would have 

[~slcalled - 

Page 231 

(11 time, as opposed to calling Mr. Halperin back, or something 

f 2 1 like that? 

A I have spent a good part of m 

I i 1 institutions and people, and in that process, Y 

lhiivearning 

(5 1 to learned how to make things hap en. And the call to 

16 1 Ronald Perelman was a call to ma R e things happen, if they 

[ 7 1 could happen. 

0 When you spoke to Ms. Lewinsky right before 

1 ii that - at 4:48 - did she indicate to you at all whether she 

L 10 1 had interviewed earlier that day or within a couple of days 

[ 111 of the call at Revlon? 

A She - I knew she had - she had had an interview 

i :: 1 at American Express. She had taken a test, as I testified 

[ 14 1 before, for Young 8 Rubicam. And she had been interviewed 

[ 15 1 maybe once or tvwe by Revlon. 

[I61 0 So she was in process, to some degree. 

(171 A 

Q 

She was in process. 

Okay. And so the intent of your call to 

I:i{Mr. Perelman was to see if you could talk to him and 

rzoljust see if they would do something quickly. if they 

[ 2 I Iwere goin to do it. Is that fair to say? 

[221 % That is correct. 

Q Now, we go down at - I guess the very next call, 

I :: i there’s a short call from you to Peter Straus’ residence 

[ 2 5 1 right after, it appears, you got off the phone with 

____~~ 

Page 226 to Page 231 OlCStiW 
1830 

BSA Vernon Jordan, 515198 XMAUl%W 

_~ .--- ~~ __-. .._~~~~_ _..-- .~ ..- 

Page 232 Page 235 

: Mr. Perelman. 

A Ri ht. 

Q 

; :just did? 

&re you aponstng Ms. Lewinsky of what you 

.__ A I’m trying to say “I’m doing the best I can to 

!f:-is my fax number. 

__. 

_--. Q 

A 

Do you - 

.--j And I don’t know how you talk to a fax number. 

‘-3. Q Well,. I think it would represent,, then, that there 

fE;jwas a fax that was transmitted. I would submit would be the 

1:s: likely conclusion. 

FOREPERSON: 

!::-was concluded.) 

!::: l **.t 

1-T. 

.--. 

Page 233 

is : 

And that leads to the next question, which is: Do 

ou ever remember etting faxed anything? Let’s set aside 

: 3: ? he resume you got P rom her back in November-December, and 

:; : she may have 

A ?have no recollection o 

wen you a piece of pa 

Pe arfzzhind if we - if 

j:we had a fax, you have it based on your subpoena duces tecum. 

._: Q Do you have any recollection of Ms. Lewinsky ever 

‘s f telling you - whether you wanted it or not - that she was 

: 3 1 going to send you something? 

.I”_ A I have no recollection. 

. . 

.--., 0 What about the affidavit? At some point, she did 

: I: : Indicate that she wanted to give It to you, correct? 

‘. :- A 

1:; f her affidavit. 

She showed d to me. I do not have a copy of 

Q And is it accurate that you made clear to her when 

1 I: !she showed it to you that ou didn’t want it? 

.- A I’m not her Y a er. I was her friend. 

.--. MR. LERNER: 2. Bienert it’s 4:30. 

_-_ FOREPERSON: It’s beyond 4:30. 

_--_ MR. BIENERT: All right. 

__. 

..--. MR. LERNER: 4:30 IS sacred. 

.__. MR. BIENERT: 

‘E;iwrapping up here. All ri ht. 

I understand. That’s why I’m 

. . . 

.-y. MR. WISENBERG: 

-: I attorney about - 

We will confer with your 

as you can tell, we didn’t get finished, 

Page 234 

: -but marchin 

:I : think, near t 8 

chronologically alon 3, Mr: Jordan, we’re, I 

e end. And we’ll con er wrth your,attomey 

: 3 : about the next Grand Jury date. Is that - and tt will not 

: : be this week. 

THE WITNESS: Well, I’m out of town tomorrow and 

z: the rest the week. I’m in Europe next week. And so I would 

.- : appreciate your understanding my need to continue to make a 

: z : living and feed m famil 

MR. BIENERQ: 

and service my clients. 

3: And I will represent to you that - 

: ::. as I think we’ve done all along - we’ll definitely confer 

: 1: : wrth your counsel and try to set up a time that is mutually 

: :: : convenient for ou and our schedule. Okay? 

>. THEbtTNE&: Thank you very much. (_ .-*_ MR. WISENBERG: Thank you very much. 

.--. THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

z .--. BY MR. WISENBERG: 

0 You did indicate that ou had brief musings you had 

f! s Iwritten down earlier, when you were r elltng us - 

A Yeah, but these musings are my business, 

il: f not yours, okay? 

0 

‘?z:read somethin 

Oh, oka 

C? 

I thought that you had ma 

): 

be intended to 

at. 

A 

and I rdn’t want to deprive you oft 

%h. no. No, no. You don’t want to read what I’ve 

_-1. - got here. 

._-. MR. BIENERT: Maybe we’ll read about it in the 

OlC-starr Page 232 to Page 235 
- 

I 

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._--- . .._ --. .__.-----.--- --_ 

ACTIVITY SCHEDULE NOVEMBE 

SUN. MONDAY TUESDAY WEDNESDAY THURSDAY FRIDAY 

R 1997 

SAT. 

NOTES: DECEMBER 1997 

SMTWTFS 

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1 OCTOBER 1997 

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THANKSGlVtNG 

DAY 

331 

HOLIDAY 

33 33 333 

NOVEMBER 1997 7540-01-357-4703 OPTIONAL FORM 67 

For 1998 Order 7540-01~337-8712 KNOW YOUR RIGHTS (Formerly Ad-300) 506 7- 126 
I 

/ 

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SI’N. ACTIVITY 

hlONDA\ 

iCHEDULE JANUAI 

TUESDAY I WEDNESDAY THURSDAY FRIDAY 

Y 1998 

SAT. 

L 

I 

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A_- 

NOTES 1 ~~ - ~-__-__._ 

NEW 

YEAR’S 

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HOLIDAY 

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DECEMBER 1997 

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FEBRUARY I998 

- __-~-_..__~__._ 

SMTWTFS 

1234567 

8 9 IO II 12 13 I4 

IS @ 17 18 19 20 21 

22 23 24 25 26 27 28 

7 8 9 IO II I2 I3 

IJ I5 I6 I7 18 I9 20 

21 22 23 24 @ 26 27 

28 29 30 31 

4 6 .__ 

-..- ..___--__ 

5 8-m . .~ 

t a 10 

11 14-- . ~~_.. ‘_.__ 

----_~ 

_ 

1’ 

.~~_ __ ..~_ 

li 

1 g __ -...__..___ 

MARTIN LUTHER 

KING, JR’S 

BIRTHDAY 

t 101 .IDAY 

1E 

-.- 

26 .~.._ 

18 2 0 _.._.___-...: 24 21 ____~ .-. ~___ 

11 20 21 22 

25 28 ._~. 29 30 

2f 2f 2E 29 31 

7540-O l-337-4703 JANUARY 1998 OPTIONAL FORM 67 

For 1998 Order 7540-01-337-8712 EEO IS FOR EVERYONE (Formerly Ad-300) 5067-126 
1835 

Vernon Jordan 5/5/98 GJT 

Exhibit VEJ-2 Redacted 

in its entirety 
1836 

-- -. ___. __ WV. I.__ 

Epass Access Control Report 

Search Criteria LEVVlNSKY.MONlCA 

Search Dates: 01/01197to 12/31197 

-. ^^ _- 

_ _J.“C 

Date Time 

:,'24/9' 09~38125 

:;,'24/9? 10:32:24 

:2/28/91 17:48:2? 

c2/28/97 19:07:08 

c3/13/97 10:01:22 

C3/13/97 10:15:27 

C3/13/.97 21:21:24 

-C3,'?3/97 21~48~33 

c3;29/97 14:02:57 

C3:29/97 15:16: 10 

04/16/97 09:48:36 

04/16/97 09:55:38 

05/01/97 i7:42:48 

05/02/97 19:57:03 

C5/02/97 20:21:08 

C5/24/97 12:20:39 

05/24/97 13:53:30 

C5/30/97 15:32:18 

05/30/97 16:01:29 

o6/11/97 lo:57:54 

06/11/97 12:04:04 

06/16/97 14:47:23 

C6/16/97 16:10:45 

r, - "C, '24/97 18:59:02 

Ci/24/97 19:18:42 

C-/o4197 08:51:20 

'-./14/5? ._ 21~33~40 

"/14/97 " 23~22~30 

--'16/g; L 10:45:36 

C:/i6/97 11:41:51 

Cf!24/97 18~04~29 

C7/24/97 18:26:48 - 

OEl'i6/97 09:01:53- 

06/16/97 13:20:04 

@g/11/97 18:58:35 

f5/'11/97 19:05:42- 

C4/12/97 ?9:40:54- 

?4,'12/97 20:22:23 

09/22/97 19:11:24 

09/22/97 19:25:02 

10/11/9? 09:36:45 

i3/11/97 10:54:24 

::.'13/"? 18:20:43 

12/06/97 12:52:09 

< 12/06/97 13:36:02 

:2/15/97 11:31:12 

:2/15/97 12:38:52 

* 2/28/g: 08:16:26 

Name 

LS%INSKY, MOh'IC;. 

Badge Type Post Status 

=x-c=-'.- I. .I_.__*_- 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

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LEWINSKY, 

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LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

LEWINSKY, 

MONICA 

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Qr/23/98 Page: 1 
1837 

ACTIVITY REPORT 

OCTOBER 11, 1997 

SATURDAY 

hlHEN THIS-SHIFT...~IEVED‘.'I-~_ SRZXl", THE-PRESIDENT ,. _

WAS ON THE SECOND FLOOR RESIDENCEPROTECTEE XOVEKENTS: 

0952 BRS POTUS HOVED To !IXE OVAL OFFICE1028 BRS POTUS MOVED m THE OVAL STUDY. 

/ 

‘/ 

. 

____ 

~__lTHfs.SHIFT __._ _._ WAS RELIEVED BY THE 

PRESIDENT WAS IN !JXE OVAL OFFICE, 

;SHIFT, THE 

952~Dc-oooooo60 
I IO:57 AM 

2 I I2:20 I’M I’rcsidcnt Clinton 

3 1 08:59 I’M 

Call from Call to 

Vernon Jordan, Robert ‘l’rent 

Jones golf course, m 

President Clinton 

I Vernon JordLtn, Robert ‘l’rcnt Jones goll’coursc,-_ 

Vernon Jordan,- I President Clinton 

4:oo I 

I:00 ] 
1839 

THE WHRE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

PRESIDENTI& CALL LOG 

OCTOBER 11th .tn 97 

_ 

! ‘: 

. _ 

MIME .ACTION 

?;-- -- 

- 

___- _ - -I a_ 

. 

_ - - - __ 

1o’57 AM “:06 HR. VERNON E. JORDAN, JR. TLKD-OK lo:57 A.H. 

ALEXANDRIA, VA. 

INC XW 

-.._ a” 

REBACTE- 
1840 

THE WHIIE HOUSE. 

WASHINGTON 

PRESIDENTIAL CALL LOG 

.- . . 

. . . 

OUT 

MR. VERNON JORDAN 

ALEXANDRIA, VA. 

XIGE 17.7f.j PM 17:34rlr'p 

-..-a rul 

TLKD-OK 12:21 P.R. 

117%Dc-ooooooo6 
1841 

THE WHITE: HOUSE 

WMHINCTON 

PRESIDENTIAL CALL LOG 

OCTOBER 11th .I0 97 

ACTtON 

.- 

. . 

11%Dc-oooocm7 REDACTED 

- 

LKD-OK 8:59 P-H. 
1842 

2 November 1997 

Dear Betty: 

I hope you had an enjoyable weekend. I thought I’d drop you a note since it’s so difficult for both 

of us to talk at work! .- 

I became a bit nervous this weekend when I realized that Amb. Richardson said his staff would 

be in touch with me this week. As you know, the UN is supposed to be my back up but because 

VJ has been out of town, this is my only option right now. What should I say to Richardson’s 

people this week when they call? I had mentioned to Richardson that working there was one of 

the things I was looking at. tt probably sounds stupid, but I have absolutely no idea how to tell 

them, ‘I’m not sure yet”, in a business-like manner. If you feel it’s appropriate, maybe you could 

ask “the big gur what he wants me to do. Ahhhhh...anxiety!!!!! 

Also, I don’t think I told you that in my conversation last Thursday night with him that he said he 

would ask you to set up a meeting between VJ and myself, once VJ got back. I assume he’ll 

mention this to you at some point - hopefully sooner rather than later! 

I am enclosing a copy for VJ of the list of advertiiing/PR firms that I included in 3he big guy’s’ 

packet. My hopes are that one of the names will jump out as a place where he (VJ) might have 

a contact. 

I mentioned to him that Id like to drop by on Sat. to give you your birthday present and to see 

him for a bii. He seemed somewhat receptive and said he’d check it out this week. Of course, 

he’ll forget because in the whole scheme of things it’s not that important and I will, of course, 

probably have to bug you towards the end of the week with this (something to look forward to I’m 

sure)! ! ! ! ! 

I hope to hear from you soon with some guidance. I am mailing my “thank-you-for-meeting-withme-letter to Richardson today. I was pleased the UN interview went well, but I’m afraid it will be 

like being at the Pentagon in NY...YUCK! PLEASE let me know what to do soon!!!! 

1,000 thank you%. 

Hugs n’ kisses, 

MSL-55DC-0179 
1843 

1 will be movtng back to OR next summer- after our Bali trip! We have = 

talked about staying longerand I worry about Chris going back to his = 

office after only a year away, but I don’t htink I can live in thts = 

environment for another year or half-year. Yes, I make good money, but = 

it is mind-numbigly boring (my job). The other thing too, which is more = 

important, is the nature of this city with its horrendous pollution (my = 

hair is barely growing!), masses of people and no grass or trees. lt is = 

expensive and a pain to leave the city for a wkend....blah. blah, blah. = 

For our year anniversary we are going out ot dinner. Period. I mean, = 

if we lived in OR we would definately go to some romantic B&B or hotel = 

out of Portland and maybe even fly and it would be cheaper than the = 

trains here. I sound whiny but lt is a w&d place and I think I may be = 

_ done with it next summer. I think about driving and my house nad hiking = 

inthe gorge and the coast and easy trips to N.Caliiomia and friends and = 

the slow life and a puppy....1 guess its my small town island girl ness = 

that wants me out of the big modem city. 

NEW TOPIC: I am- are vqu sitting- a size 6 at the GAP!!!!!! They have = 

seriously re-calibrated thetr sizes. baby, and its time to shopshopshop. = 

I go in their and 10 are literally HANGING off rneand 6s are well..kts = 

just say drinking those shakes once a day for 10 years has really paid = 

off! To be fas. I have not gained that much. but I am decidedly, with = 

out a doubt. unquestionably a smack in the middle (and comfortable with = 

it I might add) size Pn 6. I wonder if they changed the sizes somehow = 

for Japan- to make those J ladies feel like they exist- no size 6s = 

puhhhleeezzz!! Actually they probably lo 

Gigantic next to their size Cute and Life. 

me gather up b size = 

but for the first, or maybe second, time in my lie 

Just kidding, = 

tall. 

I’m glad I’m not = 

I guess the first time was when I was growing up in Japan...oh. I = 

mean Hawaii. 

So, I am thrilled for you about this new job. I would beside myself tow = 

ork in that group. Richardson looks like a nice man. What are some of = 

your other options, in the private sector? Would all of them mean a = 

move to NY? Try to tell me as much as you can. Oh, I miss you and I = 

really am sad you will not be here soon...l understand though. I hope = 

all works out. Very sweet about Australian guy. When will he be in DC, = 

or the east coast, next? Waft, did you get together with him when you = 

met him? Lots of questions to answer. Also remind me to tell.you why = 

the whole couples extravaganza is not really a fantasy, at least this = 

one wasn’t. I have to pop off to work. Write back as soon as you can. = 

I love you and take care. Cat 

From: Lewinsky, Monica, , 

Sent: Wednesday. November 05.1997 2:16 AM 

To: CA Davis _ 

Subject: RE: troubs? 

OK. I have some bad news. I am off the next trip so i won’t be coming = 

to=20 

Tokyo. I am probably sorrier than you are. the truth is it would have = 

been=20 

so difficult to spend time together and it probably would have benn more = 

frustrating than anything. 

The job thing on Friday went much better than expected. It was nice; = 

the=20 

big creep called thursday night and gave me a pep talkbecause i was so=20 

afraid I’d sound like an idiot. Richardson is a great guy and i met two = 

women who work for him...also very cool. Yesterday, Richardson called = 

me at=20 

work and told me they were going to offer me a position..they didn’t = 

know=20 

what yet. and they wanted to talk with me further. The problem is, I = 

Page 2 

‘037-DC-O000(1553 
1844 

don?=20 

really wnat to work there (issue wise or location wise) I’ve already = 

hao=20 

the expenence of working in a yucky building. It was awful, actually,=20 

because i feel a little trapped into taking it. HOPEFULLY, there will = 

be=20 

some movement on the other tracks in NY too. I told mr. bacon I was=20 

planning to move and was in the process of looking...tiich is why i = 

asked=20 

him if i could switch trips with tom. The biggest reason i need to do = 

that=20 

was because the creep’s friend who is supposed to help me with the = 

private=20 

sector possibilities has been out of town the last two weeks. I feel = 

like=20 

I’ll lose momentum with them if i disappear for three weeks now (thars=20 

including Thanksgiving). Oy vey! . . 

I’m glad to hear you guys had such a nice weekend. 

sounds=29 

Honestly Cat,:it = 

like such a wonderful fantasy to me. To be with yourr husband - as = 

part of=20 

a couple with other couples doing couple-y kind?@ of things and having = 

fun. 

My Australian boyfriend CALLED me on Friday to let me know his e-mail 

was=20 

down., He said it had become habit to e-mail me friday nights and he = 

wanted=20 

to let me know he couldn’t send anything. I know...when’s the = 

wedding?????=20 

Just kiddin’. 

i miss you tons and am so sad I won’t see you, but maybe well work=20 

something out soon. When do you guys come to the states..for holiday? 

and=20 

for good? 

kisses and hugs 

Monica 

From: CA Davis 

z:bm 

Date: Monday, November 03,1997 7:15PM 

Hi, I sent you a message called ‘quickie’ last wk. but it was =3D 

undeliverable for awhile so I’m hoping this will reach you. You’d think = 

=3D 

the f’n Pentagon could have straightened out email! Anyway, how did =3D 

your ‘meeting’ go last-week? I’m seeing the man on tellie alot because = 

=3D 

of the Iraqi nonsense. I think that could be a cool job, maybe better = 

=3D 1037-Dc-ooooo554 : 

I had a long wkend away from home. We went to a friends office’s =3D 

cottage at Lake Kawaguchi. Its Susan’s office’s cottage and she invited = 

=3D 

us and 2 other couples for the 3day wkend- so 4 coupl&.all together. = 

=3D 

It was fun- we drank a lot, ate a lot hiked, walked, lounged, played = 

=3D 

games etc.1 was about ready to 90 home Sunday evening but we left Mon. = 

=3D 

y;ting. I was getting tired of being surrounded by Brits! Actually = 

Page 3 
1845 

Unkribwn 

From: CA Davis 

Hey! I said there is no way ‘ma I am a real size 6 I am noquestions-asked-nodoubts-in-my-mind-an-honestto-goodness-full-size 8. EIGHT. And sizes are not double, but if they ae then Jeannie is half my size. My porn! 

was GAP is retarded. but in an ego-boosting way so ‘please try’- as they say in Japan. And I have NOT lost 

weight. I have gained weight but only a little. What I do have is a constant poochy belly from eating too much race! 

So, no more sarcastico comments on my vduptuous. size 8 bod. 

Who’s the BF? Rave you told me his name? Can you? I hope that works out for you, let me know. I have no 

brne right now. I have to go to my 7.3Oa dass and I am not drassad yet. 

Okay, my lovely size 10 lovebug- and you cannot say anyting bad about a size 10 because I think that is a fine 

size- seeing as I was one for years and probably Still am in Guess Or Ber&ton or something. Actually I think I am 

onewithJigsaw,aBritcompnayIbuydothesirhere. Sonomoreofitatl! Itoveyou,begood! Cat 

From: &twifUy. M. .I__ 

munaBy. Nomrmerl& 1997538AM 

To: cAo8vis 

S-a: RE: tfwb? 

Whew! Whataday! Imetwttbthebiicreep’sbestfriendthismoming. tt 

was very interetsing. 

life. 

I have never met such a ‘real’ person in my entire 

You know how some people where their hearts on their sleeves: he 

wears his soul. lncredibie. He said, with regard to my job search. Vfe’re 

in business.’ Well see. he also said the creep had talked to him, and as 

I was leaving he said, you come very h@hly reaxnmended.’ (Te+he&tee) 

The Richardson thing does sound interesting for someone who likes 

international affairs 

in NY. 

- NOT ME! But I am trytng to only look for something 

It’s time for me to get out of here. I really hope that the creep 

and i can still have contact, because, I know it sounds soooooooooo 

ridiculous, but I can’t get him out of my heart. i love him a lot. I know 

it’s stupid. I want to hug him so bad right now i could cry. 

OK. I hate you , you liisiz~. I don’t know if i can be friends 

with you anymore!!!!!!!! That’s nice. I’m a 10-12 so that makes me double 

your size. I am happy for you. That is awesome. Do you think being around 

the petite japanese has made it easier to lose or more pressure? either 

way, that’s rad. I miss you so much. There’s a void in my soul. 

Ohhh how i long for the time when we can just spend a day 

together...starting wl coffee at Starbuck’s...shopping...lunch at somewhere 

yummy...maybe a movie...more shopping...and then getting drunk on 

margaritas!!! Whooo-hoooo! 

I love you and I’m reminding you to tell me about why your weeknd away wl 

couples wasn’t so fantasy island. 

Love 

M 1037-Dc-ooooo552 

From: CA Davis 

To: 

Subject: RE: troubs? 

Date: Tuesday, November 04; 1997 2:09PM 

Okay, I am seriously bummed, but I was worried about the tit issue also = 

and about feeling like you were ‘so close, yet so far away’ while you = 

were here. Chris and I will be in OR from teh 18th to the 24th of Dec. = 

and HI from the 24th to the 4th or so of Jan. Then I am pretty sure we = 

Page 1 
1846 

Davis, Catherine 

From: 

Sant: 

To: 

Subject: 

Lewmsky, Monica. em 

$mt;y. November 08.1997 820 PM 

RE: troubs? 

I~alittlenervortstodothewhoknameoftheBF. Hisfirstnameis 

Vernon. lt went WY well as I said yesterday. I won? be heartno from him 

until later next wei& I know he Sa\ir the bii-Creep yetserday aft&noon. 

Unfommatley. that mn’t called me so i don’t realty know what 

happened in the meeting Or WhateVef eke is QOinQ On with hi. Oh Well. 

i don’t have much to report except that i ma Efbsolutely exhausted tdday. 

is an overcast. Portland-like day today and I just want to crawl into my 

beddy-bye and read. nap and ratax. 4 l 

r, 1LI)ihopeyouaredoingwell. imissyou. 

ktmeknowwhat’sopwithyW. 

luV* 

monka 

il 

Hey! Isaidthereisnowayin~lamarealsize6_1am= 

n~uestionsssked-no-doub~-~~i~~~t-~~~~l~s~e = 

8. EIGHT. And sizes are not double, but if they as then Jeannie is = 

half my she. My point was GAP is retarded, but in an ego-boosting way = 

so ‘please try’- as they say in Japan. And I have NOT lost weight, I = 

have gained weight but only a little. What I do have is a constant = 

poochy belly from eating too much ride! So. no more sarcastic0 axnments = 

on my voluptuous, size 8 bod. =20 

Who’s the BF? Have you told me his name? Can you? I hope that works = 

outforyouletrneknow. Ihavenotimerightnow.Ihavetogotomy= 

7.30a class and I am not dressed yet. =20 

Okay, my lovely size 10 lovebug- and you cannot say anyting bad about a = 

size 10 because I think that is a fine size seeing as I was one for = 

years and probably still am in Guess or Benetton or something. Actually = 

I think I am one with Jigsaw, a Brit compnay I buy dothes in here. So = 

no more of it all! I love you, be good! Cat 

From: Lewinsky. Monica. , 

Sent: CTb:d;y, November 08.1997 538 AM 

To: 

Subject: RE: troubs? 

y’h;! What a day! I mat with the big creep’s best friend this morning. = 

was very interetsing. I have never met such a ‘reti parson in my = 

entire=20 

life. You know how some people when their hearts on their skevss; ha=20 

w;a~ehisosoul. Incradiile.. He said, wtth regard to my job search, = 

in bus&s.‘ Well see. he also said the creep had talk& b him, and = 

as=20 

I was leaving he said, You come very highly reammended.’ = 

(Tee-bee-hee) 

sa 

. P&P1 

. 

1037~Dc-aKmo153 - 
1847 

._ 

CA Davis 

- 

From: Lewinsky. Monica, , 

Sent: Friday, November 0 

To: CA Davis 

Subject: RE: troubs? 

I’m a little nervous to do the whole name of the BF. His first name is 

Vernon. It-went very well as I said yesterday. I won’t be hearing from him 

until later next week. I know he saw the big creep yetserday afternoon. 

Unfortunatley. that fucker hasn’t called me so i don’t really know what 

happened in the meeting or whatever else is going on with him. oh well. 

i don’t have much to report except that i ma absolutely exhausted today. it 

is an overcast. Portland-like day today and I just want to crawl into my 

beddy-bye and read, nap and relax. (of course. having a boy there too 

wouldn’t be so bad!!!) i hope you are doing well. i miss you. 

let me know what’s up with you. 

luv. 

monka 

From: CA Davis 

Subject: RE: troubs? 

Date: Wednesday, November 05, 1997 1:28PM 

Hey! I said there is no way in hell I am a real size 6- I am = 

no-questions-asked-no-doubts-in-my-mind-a~onest-t~~ness-~ll-s~e = 

8. EIGHT. And sizes are not double, but if they ae then Jeannie is = 

half my size. My point was GAP is retarded, but in an egeboosting way = 

so ‘please try’- as they say in Japan. And I have NOT lost weight, I = 

have gained weight but only a little. What I do have is a constant = 

poochy belly from eating too much rice! So, no more sarcastico comments = 

on my voluptuous, size 8 bod. =20 

Who’s the BF? Have you told me his name? Can you? I hope that works = 

out for you, let me know. I have no time right now. I have to go to my = 

7.30a class and I am not dressed yet. =20 

Okay, my lovely size 10 lovebug- and you cannot say anyting bad about a = 

size 10 because I think that is a fine size- seeing as I was one for = 

years and probably still am in Guess or Benetton or something. Actually = 

I think I am one with Jigsaw, a Brit compnay I buy clothes in here. So = 

no more of it all! I love you, be good! Cat 

From: Lewinsky, Monica, , 

Sent: Thursday. November 06.1997 538 AM 

To: CA Davis 

Subject: RE: troubs? 

Whew! What a day! I met with the big creep’s best friend this morning. = 

It=20 

was very interetsing. I have never met such a ‘real” person in my = 

entire=20 

life. You know how some people where their hearts on their sleeves; he=20 

wears his soul. Incredible. He said, with regard to my job search. = 

we’re=20 

in business.” We’ll see. he also said the creep had talked to him, and = 

as=20 

I was leaving he said, “You wme very highly reccmmended.’ = 

(Tee-hee-hee) 

Page 1 

1037~Dc-oooooo17 
6 November 1997 

Mr. Vernon Jordan 

Akin, Gump. Strauss. Hauer & Feld 

1333 New Hampshire, NW 

Washington. DC 20036 

Dear Mr. Jordan: 

Itwas a real pleasure meeting with you. I know how very busy and 

demanding your schedule is; I particularly appreciated your taking the 

time to speak with me. 

I feel compelled to mention how overcome I was by your genuineness. 

While some people wear their heart on their sleeve: you appear to wear 

your soul. It made me happy to know that our friend has such a 

wonderful confidante in you. 

I believe I may have neglected to mention that while my current position 

is administrative, I am seeking more substantive work in my next 

position. 

Thanks again for your time, and I look forward to hearing from you upon 

your return. 

Sincerely. - 

Monica S. Lewinsky 
u 

- 

- 

--I 

- 

d 

n 
I 1 /OS/97 

08:44 AM Vernon Jordan's office, White House, _ 

I_ Nancy Hernreich, White House,_ 6:30 2 08:56 AM Vernon Jordan's office, 

-1s office, 

Vernon Jo~.ddt~'s office, 

3:12 3 Howard Gittis, McAndrews & Forbes, 

4 Na~icy Iie~'llr.eicll, White ~IOUSC, 0 : 4 t1 11:05 AM 

5 11:44 AM 's office, Nancy Hernreich, White House, _ 1:ofi 

6 Nancy Hernreich, White House, _ 1:%4 02:34 PM 

1:30 7 Vernon Jordan's office, Betty Currie, White House, w 

non Jordan's office, 

- 

Barbara Neysmith, American Express, 

Vernon Jordan's office, Bob Bennett, c-1 

Vernon Jordan's office, David Kendall, _ 

6 

02:36 PM 

8 02:47 PM 2:oo 

9 06:03 PM 2:48 

10 06:14 PM 0 : 4% 
-- 
1852 

t;FkiESl’i;rENTiAL CALL LOG 

NOVmBER -5th s . .1a 9’ 

. 

. . 

AcrlOW. 

- _ i 

- -- 

. 

. 

.- . 

1178-DC-Ml000011 

MR. VERNON E:. JORDAN. JR. TLKD-OK 8:50 A.M. 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

-_ 

1854 

. 

I 7-M 

November 27. 1997 

I - 1. *ACTION 

_. _ 

- _. 

JPLACED~] _ _ ii. ..___. _____ .: 

I . . l . 

XXX 11:46 AM 

INC PM 

Hr. -Vernon Jordan 

@&$!ashington. D.C. 

1 I 78-~c-~~ 2 
87_WHVA 

I’ 

417100 

PIQO 1 
I2/08/97 

2:oo 

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Akin. Cttmp, Strwu. Hauer & Fcld. LlJ? 

REQUEST FOR MESSENGER SERVICE 

-.- 

L.. - ;f - ..: ‘

. 

imc Submlttcd: Client I, m&.-S 

jwtd 6. aleasJA@ Ext.: 

Cdl &CL to Confirm Delivey? Yes X . No 

Service Type 

Outer DC and Suburb@ 

Arcam hatmen Gramn & Capitnl ilill 

0 Filing/Round Trip Se!nice 0 FilinglRound Trip Senice 

0 60 Minuk Fkgulnr Service c] 2 Hour Senia 

Downtown 0 90 Minub Senia 

a 30 Minute RUSH Setvia’ 0 If other, plcrsc talk dkctly 

hwntown to your dhpatchcr. 

0 9OMinukRcqular &-via - 

0 ZMinute RUSH Servios’ Hill 

0 Ifother, pleat talk directly to ‘lbhswnca~s(n~ 

yaw dbpakher. 

Hoom #/Phone Ir: 

mcr up From: 

Add-: 

Room +/Phone #: 

-- 

VOO4-DC40000183 
1860 

voo4-Dc-ooooO184 

REDACTED DOCX3m 
1861 
0” . . 

1862 

c. 

1864 

REQUEST iOR MESSENGER SERVICE 

-.. C.. - ;I: - . . : 

Back to Confirm Deiivery:’ ‘r 

0 FilingiRound Trip Service 

0 2 Hour Service 

0 90 Minute Service 

0 If other, please talk directly 

to your dispatcher. 

your dispalchcr. 

Pick Up From: 

Add-: 

Room #/Phone (r: 

ADDITIONAL INSTRUCTIONS: \ 

\ 

Dispatcher Un Only 

Cburiar # 3ai Control # &!?)A $12 E0.D. TIME: 

\ 

SigGturc: \ 

voo4-~c-OOOO0185 
12/19/97 

Time 1 Call from Length nf 

I 1 I :20 PM / mskys ’ ollice, 1 Vernon Jordans ’ oIlice,- 

2 I:47 PM M&@&skys ’ office, Vernon Jordans ’ office, - 1:50 

3 3:51 PM Vernon Jordans ’ officee Calls President, speaks to Debra Schiff 

4 5:06 IM ’ Vernon Jordans ’ office, m Frank Carter, Attorney, I:54 

D ‘
24, 1998 

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Data: Saw-. January 24, 1998 

TAW: 1:23:24 9n 

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12/24/97 15~00 

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12/27/97 l2a 51 

12/27/91 12x54 

12/27/97 128 55 

12/20/97 11:33 

12/28/97 11136 

12/2S/97 II:31 

12/28/97 llr50 

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12/21/97 12: 12 

12/28/97 12: 13 

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12/29/97 09: 17 

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Dnte: kfurday. Jmuay 24, 1998 OIC - MS - 014 

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965 4lrOOlU Oto2r33 242.42 0.25 0.09 
THE WHITE hOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

PRESJDENTJAL CALL LOG 

1178-DC-13 : 

0 

kit?. VkNNON E. JORbAN, 3. 

1 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

ML WWON JOitDAN TLKS) 

1 - 

WITH Ms. DEBRA SCHIFf 

3:Sl P.M. - 0 - 

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1878 

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1879 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

PRESIDENTIAL CALL LOG 

DECMBER 19th 

,19 g7 

TIIWE 

PUCE0 OlSC 

F UAME ACTJON 

OUT lL& HR. VERNON E. JORDAN, JR. 

OFC: UASRINhlN, D.C. 

TLKD-oK 5:Ol P.H. 

,,Q 4:57 PM 5:08 - 

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ACC-CO lAST.NAME FIRST-NmMIj 66N ENm - C S c HE0 ENTR Y-D VISITEE M-Q-R WTOR DO6 ENTRY-TOA 

~014.390 JORDAN VERNON I U74189 1730 OS/l S/Q7 FLOTUS EASTROO SCHWARTZ 06116/36 l :* ‘ l 

.012sl7 ’ JORDAN jJ92736 14:00 1 l/06/97 POTUS WW CAMERON 06/l 6136 “:* l 

0 19070 JORDAN UOl666 17:00 12/07/97 POTUS WH SPANOLER 06/l 6136 17:21 

,019069 JORDAN UO6987 16:16 12/17/97 VPOTUS OEOB EYER 09/16/36 16:60 

01907 1 JOROAN UO7410 2o:OO 12119197 POTUS WH SPANGLER 06116/36 20:16 

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THE. WHITE HOUSE 

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PRESIDENTIAL CALL LOG 

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OUT 9:26 AM 9:51 MR. VERNON E. JORDAN. JR. TLKD-OK 9:27 A.H. _ 

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THE WHITE HOUSE 

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PRESlDENTlAL CALL LOG 

JANUARY 6 l lS 96 

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OUT 

ifi RR. VERNON E. JORDh. JR. TLKD-OK 4:19 P.H. 

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tXk>:19 PM 4:32 - ? -- L 1 

-’ I II 

0 004990 

1/08/Y8 

NO. ‘I’imc Call from Call to Lungth of 

Cdl 

I I I :SO AM Iclcr ’ Strauss rcsidcnce~ Vernon Jordans ’ ollicc, - I :OO 

2 3:O) ’ IM ’ Pcler Strauss rcsidcnce,~ Vernon Jordms ’ oflicc. __ I :oo 

3 4:48 IM ’ Pclcr Strauss residence,~ Vernon Jordans ’ office, _ s:oo 

4 4:54 IM ’ Vernon Jordans ’ office, e Ronald f%xelrnan, Revlon, - I :42 

5 4:56 PM Vernon Jordans ’ office,- Peter Strauss residence, - 0:54 

6 639 IM ’ Vernon Jordans ’ limousine, Rob Wcincr, White I louse Clounscls ’ of&x, __I 0:42 

7 9:02 IM ’ Peter Strauss residence, N Vernon Jordans ’ of&x, I- 1 :oo 

8 9:21 IM ’ Vernon Jordans ’ office,& Rob Weiner, White I louse counsc ‘ l’s ’ oflicc~ 0:42 

0 9:21 IM ’ Vcrwn Jordans ’ oflicc, __ Whik I lousc~ 0:4u 

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WrrtrrrD STATSS DISTRICT W”RT 

Pm Tnz DxSfnxcT 09 CQUIWBIA 

-----------‘----~ 

*n t.: NO. 4-VJ-16 Pt*,ldrnCl41 call loq 1113 60 

GRAHD z-r ewCeT=:L‘cs 

----‘-----------~ 

no. ,-v.J-*7 L.ett.r d.t,d 1113198 to Revlon 

Grand Jury ROW Ho. 3 

Unif*d States Dlrtrlet COUrC 

:con lcv1nsty 70 

for the Diatriet of COl".?dla Pk.. 4-VJ-10 

3rd ‘ Con~tltutlon. U.W. 

sua*ry celrphcn. ll*t I/?5 73 

Wuh1nqEc.n. D.C. 20001 Wo. 4-V;-20 P.qr ne,s.qc l/13/98 to Jordan 

Thursday, ".y 28, 1998 *Can curric 14 

The terttsony of VSRNOX E. JOitDAN, JR. "a, taken in "0. 4-YJ-21 P.qe mc,s.q. l/15/90 to J0rd.n trc,n C.rt.z 81 

th. prrs.nc. ot L fall 'iu0r.n of Grand Jury 97-2. lmpmel*d No. 4-VJ-22 Sor*ury t.laphone llrt l/16/98 82 

on scpc5hr 19, 1991, .2cumncing .Z 9:41 .a.. kFor*: 

Wo. 4-VJ-23 Pr.sldantlal call loq l/16/99 82 

TX- Ii. BILHZRT, J-n. 

/ 

CRAIG 5. GcRWtl 

: "0. 4-"J-24 Pr&dcnCfal call loq l/37/98 

nIcnAEL BCIICX ., 

i 

Anaoc1au Inde$w4enr coun#*l 

p 

4:58 p.m. Cdl 91 

Ottl~ or Indo~nf couns.1 

1001 Puluy1vraia Avenu*. llorxnw*1t No. 4-VJ-25 Pcesld.ntlal hall loq ~f11199 

i 

suite 490 llotth 

i 

lhshlnqtpa, D.C. 20004 7:02 p.m. Cdl 91 

'la. 4-VJ-26 Pr.sidenClal call loq l/17/98 

‘):13 p.a c.11 91 

'lo. 4-VJ-27 Sumwry C*lephonc list l/18/98 91 

MO. 4-VJ-24 u111nq r*c*1prr rron P.Zk 

ny.tt 105 

"0. 4-w-30 Pr~~ldbntlal call loq 1/18<95 

12:50 p.m. 106 

"cl. 4-V.l-32 l residential call loq 111190 

2:5S p.m. call 121 

Pm. 2 Page 4 

COITLWTS 1 PROCEEDINGS 

W~THESS: 

V.CIIOII S. J0rd.n. Jr. 

GAWD JEW SXHIl5ITt: 

P4q* 

1 

2 whereupon, 

3 VERNON E. JORDAN, JR. 

4 was called as a witness and, after having been duly sworn by 

We. 4-VJ-1 ecr*on&l clltadar Of rltn*rs 1 5 the Foreperxm of the Grand Jury, was examined and testified 

“0. I-VJ-2 PIson. records toz 12/30 tral 6 as follows: 

StEInas and Akin anp 1 7 EXAMINAnON 

MO. 4-"J-3 sumu-j tm1rphon* list l/7/98 I) 8 BY $+R. BJENERT: 

We. 4-VJ-4 Pcr~oaal calradar or vltn.*s 9 Q Good morning, Mr. Jordan. 

1/719I 10 10 A Good morning. 

no. 4-VJ-5 s-y r8l*phone 11-t 118198 11 11 Q First of all, as far as timing and procedure, just 

WC,. 4-VJ-6 11 12 to let you, know, I am aware, your attorney has indicated to 

MO. 4-VJ-l s-q t*1whon* list l/9/91 25 13 me that you are hoping to catch a 2130 flight today. We will 

wo. 4-VJ-8 PCC¶ldentlal Call log l/919(1 32 14 accommodate your need to leave for that flight. 

MO. 4-VJ-9 Letter &Lad 9 January to 15 We have a lot of calls to go through we’re going 

Schick IrW Zawlnmky 29 16 to just pick up where we left off last time, which was in the 

,,o. 4-VJ-10 saxxury t*1rpnona 11nt l/l0 .nd 17 January 7th to 8th timeframe, and move forward. So I just 

1111 37 18 hope we can get through it. 

NO. 4-VJ-11 R *s~rrr +lo n l h..t rro s P ack 19 Our intent was to definitely do everything we could 

ny.tt l/11 42 20 to be done with you today. Given the shorter day that we‘re 

We. I-VJ-12 s- rc1rphon* 119t 1112 45 21 looking at, w-e don’t know if we’ll be able to do that, bul 

110. 4-VJ-14 Letter dated l/12/91 to Plka 22 we’ll aztainly try. 

tra cut.z 62 23 A Mr. Prosecutor, I am happy to be as cooperative ;tl 

No. I-VJ-IS S-q c~lcphone llrt 1113 and 24 possible. It would be very helpful to me professionally if I 

l/14 6s 25 can make the 2:30 shuttle. It is important to my practice, 

Page 1 - Page 4 

Diversified Re~ortinn Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 
1890 

In rc: Grand Jurv Proceedings d 

Page $ 

I it is important to me, and to the extent that I can be 

2 accommodated I would very much appreciate it. While this i! 

3 going on, I have to earn a living. 

4 Q Right. And just to let you know, I believe we wiI: 

s accommodate you in any event. 

6 A Thank you. 

7 Q The only issue will be whether you don’t have to 

8 come back at all after this or you have to come back another 

9 day. 

0 A I am more than happy to come back. 

1 Q Okay. Now, first of all, let me go ahead and 

2 remind you of the admonitions we had last time and see if yet 

3 have any questions about them. Do you recall the admonitions 

4 that we discussed on prior visits about your Pith Amendment 

5 right not to incriminate yourself? 

6 A Yes. -i 

7 Q Do you have any questions about that? 

8 A I have no questions. 

9 Q Do you recall the admonition you were given about 

o your right to counsel? 

1 A I do. 

2 Q Do you have any questions about that? 

3 A I have no questions. 

.4 Q And you are here today with your counsel, 

5 Mr. Hundley, correct? 

Multi-Pagcm Vernon E. Jordan, Jr., S/28/98 

1 

j Page 7 

1 we use today will just be 4-VJ and then they will go from one 

P 2 until however many it is. 

3 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-VJd 

I 4 was marked for identification.) 

5 MR. BENERT: Now, the first thing I wanted to do 

6 was also to readdress something I said we’d cover last time. 

7 You all will recall and, Mr. Jordan, you will 

8 recall that there were two particular calls that appeared to 

9 bconyourphoncattbesarnetirnethatwehadintbcsummary 

I o on one of the days. I want to make sure I know which day it 

1 1 was: 

11 2 It was on December 30th and there was some question 

1 3 and speculation as to how that could have occurred and what 1 

: 1 4 qresmted I would do was go back to the souree documents to 

1 5 makesuretb2Uwehadn’tsomebowtran&bedthemwrong,tc 

1 6 verify that at least the source documents did show the calls 

1 7 at the same time. We have done that. 

1 8 I will present 4-VJ-2 as the next exhibit, which 

1 9 are two separate documents. 

2 0 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-VJ2 

2 1 was marked for identification.) 

2 2 MR. BENERT: with apOlOgieS, I’m going to sort of 

2 3 look on with you because it’s the only copy we have, but 

; !4 basically the fti page is a copy of a document we obtained 

i !5 via subpoena from AT&T reflecting calls from Peter Straus 

1 Page I 

1 apartment in New York, which I would submit to you tbaz was 

2 some evidence that Ms. Lcwinsky would stay at that apartmatt 

3 when in New York, to various numbers and it reflects that on 

4 December 30th there was a call from that apartment to 

5 - which is Mr. Jordan’s inside line at his 

6 office, 1:54 in the afternoon for seven minutes. 

7 In addition to that, the second document is an 

8 Akin Gump, Mr. Jordan’s law firm, phone record provided to 

9 usbyAlcinGumppursuan t to subpoena showing a call on 

1 o December 30th at 1354 or 1:54 for three minutes and 1: 

1 1 seconds to - which is the Whik House opemtor. 

1 2 So anyway, we obviously still may need to address 

1 3 at a later date how, if at all, these calls could occur at 

1 4 the same time mechanicaIIy. We haven’t done that yet, but w 

1 5 have verified the d ocuments themselves as to the timing. 

1 6 And now we’ll pick up with where we left off, which 

17 ’ willbe-- 

1: 8 We actually, Mr. Jordan, as you may recall, were up 

l! 9 to January 8th, but I just want to make a quick correction 

21 D and ask you a question about January 7th fw so the first 

2 1 exhibit 1’11 place before you, and, ladies and gentlem 

2: 2 this will be your summary telephone list for II7198 and it 

2: 

.T 

21 

21 

Page 6 

1 A h4r. Hundley, my counsel, is out in the hall. 

2 Q And, finally, do you recall the admonition about 

3 perjury? 

4 A I do. 

5 Q And do you have any questions about it? 

6 A I have none. 

7 Q And you do understand that everything you say today 

8 is subject to penalty of perjury? 

9 A I do understand that. 

0 MR. BIENERT: Okay. A couple of things that we’ve 

1 laid before you just for your convenience or usage as we go 

2 through. As we’ve done in the past, we’ve put before you 

3 what we marked last time as VU-I, which is a blank calendar 

4 from October of 1997, I believe, through January of 1998 just 

5 to help you keep days of the week in mind. 

6 And we’ve also placed before you what we’ve 

7 marked as 4-VJ-1, which we had a different version of last 

8 time, but it’s in essence another copy of your personal 

9 calendar/schedule book so that you may consult with that as 

3 you deem appropriate. 

1 THE WllTESs: Thank you. 

2 MR. BIENBRT: And for the court reporter’s benefit, 

3 VU-1 had already been introduced last time, but 4-VJ-I is a 

4 new exhibit. And for reference sake, because this is b&. 

5 Jordan’s fourth day before the grand jury, all the exhibits 

3 will be 4-VJ-3. 

I (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-VJ-3 I 

5 was marked for identification.) I 

Page 5 - Page 8 

Divcrsificd Rcuortinr Scrviccs. Inc. (202) 296-2929 
1891 

in rc: urana Jury Proccc&ngs Multi-Page”“ Vernon E. Jordan, Jr., 5/28/98 

Page 9 Page 1 I 

1 MR. BGNERT: Mr. Jordan, you’ll note that that 1 A No, it doesn’t. 

2 document contains a summary of seven calls. We’ve already 2 Q We were hcping perhaps -- 

3 introduced a document like this. 3 A It’s very shah Monica Ixwinsky is a pretty long 

4 I’ll state for the record that the one chang: 4 name. 

5 we made -- in fact, here it is, it’s W-53, and the one 5 Q Okay. So uhile you can’t read it, you don’t 

6 change that we made was you may recall at the end of the 6 believe that’s a refcrencc to her name. 

7 day we realized that a call that was listed as 9126 p.m. 7 A I don’t belise it, but I also don’t know. 

8 from Mr. Jordan’s office phone to Frank Carter for three 8 MR. BIENERT: Okay. All right. Well, that’s all 

9 minutes and 30 seconds actually was a: 9:26 a.m. So the 9 the questions I had a the 7th. Let’s go ahead and turn to 

o difference in the two exhibits is to move that call to 10 the 8th. Those will ‘w the next two exhibits. ‘Ibey will be 

1 the morning. 11 4-VJ-5 and 4-VJ-6. 

2 Secondly, I just have a question about that date. 12 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. d-Vi-5 

3 THE WITNESS: Let me ask you a question. 13 and 4-VI-6 were marked for 

4 January 7th is not on this calendar hae. Is there a reason 14 identification.) 

5 for that? I5 MR. BIJZNERT: First I will place before you 

6 MR. BIENERT: Should not be, sir, and I’ll just 16 4-VJ-5 - sony. Let M just take that one back and give you 

7 look over - 17 the actual exhibit. 

8 THEWlTNESS: Itgoesfromtha%htothe 11th. 18 THE WITNESS: What do you want to do with these? 

9 MR. BIENERT: The Sth, 6th 7th - 19 MR. BIENERT We can just stack them to the side 

0 THE WITNESS: All right. 20 and keep them out of the way. There you go, sir. 

1 MR. BENlzRT: The 7th is the right-hand column. 21 And, once again, ladies and gentlemen, this the 

2 THE WTNESS: All right. Good. Thanks. 22 l/8/98 phone summary. 

3 MR. BIENERTZ And, in fact, while you have 23 BY MR. aEmF 

4 that in front of you, my next question related to that 24 Q Sir, as you’ll see, Exhibit 4-VJ-5 has nine 

s calendar. 25 telephone calls on it and we’ll go ahead and address them. 

Page 10 Page 12 

1 I’m showing you Exhibit VEJ-C This is another 1 First of all, the first call is at 9:21 a.m. 

2 copy of the January 7th entry from your calendar. 2 It’s a phone call from Vernon Jordan’s office line, 

3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 3-, to -- it comes back to Rob Weiner, White House 

1 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-VJ4 4 Counsel’s Office,- 

5 was marked for identification.) 5 Now, once again, is this a name that you recognize? 

5 BYMR.BIENERT: 6 A I do not know Mr. Rob Weiner, as I said last time 

7 Q First of all, do you recall telling us that you 7 thatIwashere. 

3 believe that you met with Ms. Lewinsky some time around the 8 Q Since we’ve spoken last time, have you had a chance 

3 7th or 8th at a time when, among other things, she tried to 9 to check or do you recollect at this point what number 

) show you a copy of the affidavit? 10 w what significance that number, if any, has to you? 

I A I think I did. You have the record. I don’t. 11 A 1 think that is the office of the White-House 

2 Q Okay. And what I’m trying to do is see if we can 12 counsel. 

1 bracket that time. And I’ll represent to you, sir, that you 13 Q So when you would call that more general office 

I had a typewritten sheet that you had brought with you on 14 number, would you be calling for anyone in particular or do 

5 other occasions that showed either the 7th or 8th as the day 15 you know? 

5 you believe that happened. And we’re just trying to figure 16 A I may have been calling Chuck Ruff, the White House 

I out if we can show what day that was. And perhaps what I’d 17 counsel. I may have been calling Cheryl Mills, the deputy 

3 do is direct your attention to Exhibit 4-VJ-4. which is the 18 White House counsel. 

> exhibit I just handed you. 19 Q Okay. The next call at 9:21 a.m., there’s a 

1 A Right. Yes. 20 cdl to them number and, sir, that’s the number 

I Q And there’s an entry at 3:OO that, frankly, we were 21 that you typically call when you’re trying to reach the 

2 unable to read and we’re just trying to ascertain if you 22 President? 

5 believe that might be a reference to Monica Lewinsky. 23 A Sometimes, if I don’t callt A I don’t know. 24 Q Okay. And would be the number that also 

5 Q So that name doesn’t look familiar to you? 25 corresponds to Nancy Hemreich? 

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1 A Nancy Hemreich. 

2 Q Then there are -- if you look at 1150 and 3:09, 

3 there are two calls from Peter Straus residence. 

4 A Just call attention, if I may, to the fact that 

5 both these calls you just asked me about were 42 seconds and 

6 48 seconds. My judgment is I did not talk to anyone. 

7 Q And just so you know, the format that I’m going to 

8 trytouseforalotofthese,isIthinkwhatweweredoing 

9 last time, which is rather than just immediately ask you 

o about the fm call and what it was about, go over just sort 

1 of what the calls am to give you some context of the calls 

2 that day, and then 1’11 ask you if you know what they were 

3 about. Okay? 

.4 A Fine. 

.5 Q And, obviously, if at any point there’s a call in 

,6 here that you don’t believe you’ve had a sufficient 

.7 opportunity to explain, please let us know and we’ll 

.8 certainly allow you that. Okay? 

9 A Thank you. 

!O Q All right. Now, at 11:50 and 3:09, there are two 

!l one-minute calls from Peter Straus residence in New York to 

!2 your office. And, sir, I’ll just state to you for the recorc 

!3 that the phone records we got from the Straus residence, 

!4 phone company, they don’t show to the second, they’re in 

!S minute intervals, so I would submit that likely indicates 

Multi-Pagem Vernon E. Jordan, Jr., 5128198 S/28/98 

I 

I Page 15 

1 was in a fairly frustrated state about the progress for this 

2 job and I think it’s that frustrated state that prompted T 

3 to call Lir. Perelrnan. 

4 Q Let me make a representation to you, Sir. 1’11 

5 represent to you that earlier that day, at approximately 

6 10:00 tttt day, Ms. Lewinsky interviewed at ~~cAndmws & 

7 Forbes with a guy named Jamie Derman. 

8 A Yes. And it is very likely that she gave me the 

9 benefit of her conversation with Jamie Dennan, who is 

1 0 personal assistant to Mr. Perelman. 

1 1 Q Did she indicate to you that she did not believe 

1 2 that her interview went well? 

1 3 A I don’t recollect that. 

1 4 Q Did she indicate to you anything that suggested 

1 5 thatasaresultofthtwayshtfelttheintnvitwwentsl 

1 6 was hoping that you could make a call for her? 

I 7 A I think she wanted to know whether or not she w’ 

1 8 goingtoworkatRevlonandbasedonthat1madeaeallte 

1 9 the chairman, Mr. Pemlman, to try to make that happen. In 

2 o fact, it did happen. 

2 1 Q Was it clear to you in the call with Ms. Iewinsk: 

i2 2 that as of the time that she called you and you spoke, 

2 3 approximately 4:48 pm., she did not know or believe at that 

2 4 time that she had the job? 

2 5 A Well, she did not have a job at that time. She 

I Page It 

I had just, as you’ve indicated, had an interview with Jamie 

2 Jkman. Jamie Derman is an assistant to Mr. Perelman. He 

3 does not hire and fire. He does interview. 

4 Q All right. Now, you told us last time about the 

5 call with Mr. Perelman, so we won’t go over that again. 

6 I&t’s focus now on the cab immediately thereafter to 

7 Ms. Lewinslq at 4:56. 

8 Now, that was a call that you would have placed to 

9 the residence where she was staying correct? 

Sl 0 A That’s correct. 

1 1 Q What, if anything, did you tell her? 

1 2 A WeIl,IamnotsqethatItalkedtohtrin54 

1 3 seconds. I am not sum about that. Them was a 9:02 p.m. 

1 4 call where I do believe I spoke to her. And if it was a 

1 5 54 second call, I think it was a call to say I have spoken 

1 6 with tlx chairman on your behalf. 

1 7 Q Okay. Anything else that you would have told her? 

1 8 A No. 

1: 3 Q Would you have indicated to her whether the 

2( 1 chairman indicated he would look into tht matter or do 

2: I anything about it? 

2: 2 A TheclnGmandidsaytomethathewouldlookin~ 

2: 

24 

2! 

Page 1L 

1 that the call was no more than a minute, but could have been 

2 less. 

3 And then at 4:48 p.m., there is a five-minute call 

4 from Peter Straus’ residence to your office, followed 

5 immediately by a call from your office to Ron Pemlman for a 

6 minute and 42 seconds, followed immediately by a call from 

7 your office back to the Peter Straus residence for 54 

8 seconds. Do you see that, sir? 

9 A 1 do. 

0 Q Now, let’s focus for a second on these Peter Strau 

1 calls and the Perelman call. You told us last time that you 

.2 do recall calling Mr. Perelman on behalf of Ms. Lewinsky, 

.3 correct? 

4 A That’s correct. 

5 Q And do you believe that this 4:54 call on January 

.6 8th was likely that call? 

.7 A I do. 

>8 Q Now, let’s look at the call beforehand, the 4:48 

‘9 call. Was that you speaking to Monica Lewinsky? 

0 A I believe that I was speaking to Monica Lewinsky. 

1 Q What did you and Ms. Lewinsky speak about 

2 immediately prior to your calling? 

3 A I think that this was another one of her calls 

4 asking about when and whether or not there was a job in the 

5 offing for her and it is my assumption that here again she 

5 the matter. I think it was ‘important for her tanperament at 

4 thatparticulartimttoassureherthatIhadtalkedtothe 

rchairma T 

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1 Q Wclfd you have conveyed to her that the chairman I not the least of which is her career and her cmr 

2 said hc uzuld look into it? 2 objectives. It is not inconceivable to me that I had 

3 A I ha\z to assume that I did. 3 some conversation with her about my frustration with 

4 Q Anl-thing else that you can think of that you 4 Ms. Lewinsky. 

5 belicvc you uould have convcycd to Ms. Lewinsky in either the 5 Q And that’s what I wanted to ask you. What WOUL 

6 9:02 calI or the 4:56 call? 6 have been the nature of the conversation you would have had 

7 A It was an effort to convey that I had spoken with 7 with Ms. Mills? 

8 thechairman, that the chGman would look into it and a 8 A Just expressing my frustration, that her calls are 

9 suggestion to her that given thah that she cool out. 9 pressing me on this, and just an exchange of conversation 

0 Q All right. Now, let’s direct our attention to the IO about that. 

I 9:02 call a3d just focusing cm the phone number there in the II Q Now, again, we’re talking pre-January 18th or 19th. 

2 right-hand column, the call to Vernon Jordan’s office, 12 Did Ms. Mills appear to know who Monica Lewinsky was? 

3 m I believe you told us last time that you thought 13 A Yes, she did know who Monica kvinsky was. 

4 that was a fax number. 14 Q In whatever conversations with her that you woulc 

5 A m is in fact my fax number. 15 have mentioned Ms. lxuhsky, did you at any time have to 

6 Q WhatdidMs.Lewins~faxtoyou? 16 explain to Ms. Mills who Ms. Lewinsky was? 

7 A I don’t know. 17 A No. 

8 Q Do you ever rtmemba seeing anything faxed to you 18 Q Did MS. Mills know without your explaining it to 

9 from Ms. Letinsky in January? 19 her that you were assisting Ms. Lewinsky in her attempts to 

0 A I have no recollection of a fax. It’s 9:02 in the 20 find employment in New York?,’ 

I evening. I doubt that I was in my office. 21 A I think I told her that I was hying to help 

2 Q Who, if anyone, would be responsible for retrieving 22 Ms. Lewinsky find employment. 

3 *your faxes if you’re not there? 23 Q And as best as you can recall, when you infprmed 

4 A It could be one of three persons. It could be 24 her of that, she appeared to be learning that for the first 

5 Gayle Laughlin, my executive assistax& or Gail Coleman, 25 time? Or did she seem to know already? 

Page 18 Page 20 

1 who is a secretary or it could have been my driver, Aaron 1 A I don’t recollect., counsel. 

2 ‘Green. 2 Q Could you tell us roughly when you think these 

3 Q Do you have any recollection of anyone mentioning 3 conversations or conversation would have occurred? 

1 anything to yoy? 4 A Any time. I mean, 1 talk to Cheryl Mills a lot and 

5 A 1 do not. 5 I’m sure that somewhere in the process of my conversations 

5 Q Now, in the final phone calls that we did not 6 with her I told her that I was helping Monica Lewinsky. 

7 address would be the 9:21 am. and the 6:39 p.m. calls that 7 Now, that was no secret, I don’t think, around the White 

s would have been to White House counsel’s office. 8 House, that I was helping Monica Lk.n.~ky. Now the world 

2 Focusing on the timeframe, namely, January 8th, and 9 knows. 

3 to the degree it helps you at all with the other calls we’ve 10 Q Did Ms. Mills ever indicate that she had discussed 

I reviewed, what, if anything, do you believe you would have 11 Monica Lcwinsky and any job efforts of Monica Lewinsky’s with 

2 heen speabg to someone at White House counsels ’ office 12 anyone else? 

3 about on that day? 13 A No. 

t A Just don’t have any recollection of what I would 14 Q And did she offer you any advice as to what to do 

5 have been talking to the White House counsel about. It would 15 about Monica Lewinsky? 

5 not have been about Monica Lewinsky. 16 A My relationship with Cheryl Mills is that I am the 

? Q Prior to -- let’s say January 18th or I!& the 17 advisor and she is the advisee and it mostly has to do with 

3 timeframe when there were some allegations coming up about 18 career. She has not given me advice. 

3 Ms. Lewinsky and the President, did you ever have any 19 Q All right. Is there anything else of a substantive 

) discussions with anyone at White House counsel’s offke that 20 nature that would relate to Ms. Lcwinsky that you beljeve you 

I in any way related to Ms. Lewinsky? 21 might have said to Ms. Mills about Ms. ,&win&y prior to the 

2 A I may-have had a conversation with Cheryl Mills, 22 January 18th or 19th timeframe? 

3 who was the deputy counsel, in a very general way. Cheryl 23 A No. 

4 Mills is a very able young woman, young lawyer, and is a 24 Q Okay. And then, finally, the only call we haven’t 

s friend of mine and I talk to Cheryl about many, many things, 25 addressed on here is the 9:21 call to the White House 

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1 operator, a 48-second call, so a very short one. Does ti 

2 conversation we’ve had about this day at all give you any 

3 basis to tell us what you think you were calling the White 

4 House about? 

5 A I just don’t have any idea. Sometimes I’m calling 

6 to get a number, sometimes I’m calling to say can you put me 

7 through to some place or somebody. It does not neceSarily 

8 mean I was calling to have a conversation. There are a lot 

9 of people that you can find through the White House operator 

IO and I use that process quite often. 

II MR. BIENERT: All right. That’s all the questions 

12 I have on that. 

13 BY MR. LERNER: 

14 Q Mr. Jordan, if I could ask a question, I think you 

IS just indicated that it was no secret around the White House 

16 that you were helping Ms. Lewinsky fmd a job. 

17 A Yes. I just assume that x 

18 Q Who do you think in the white House knew that you 

19 were helping Monica Lewinsky find a job? 

!O A I don’t know. I can’t be specific about it I 

!I think the White House is sieve like every place else in that 

!2 people talk. And so I don’t -- I mean, I don’t think it was 

!3 a top secret and I certainly was not keeping it a secret, 

!4 but, by the same token, I was not broadcasting. I just think 

!5 it was in the flow. 

Page 22 

1 I assumed that it was the flow, but there is no 

2 question but that as it relates to Ms. Mills that she knew 

3 that I was helping Monica Lewinsky. 

4 BYhSR.BIENERT: 

5 Q Based on your direct conversations with people at 

6 the White House, and, again, let’s focus on prior to the 

7 media allegations on January lSth, 19th and following, who 

8 0th than Ms. Mills were you aware of based on your personal 

9 conversations knew that you were assisting Ms. Lewinsky in 

o trying to find a job? 

1 A I’m fairly certain that Bruce Lindsey knew it, that 

2 Betty Cunie knew it, and that Cheryl Mills knew it. 

3 Q What about the President? 

4 A I’ve said before here that the President in fact 

5 knew that I was helping Ms. Lewinsky. 

6 Q How and when did Bruce Lindsey and you discuss the 

7 fact that you were assisting Ms. Lewinsky in trying to get a 

8 job? 

9 A No discussion so much as an acknowledgment casually 

10 that it was happening. 

!I Q And this would have been an acknowledgment by him 

I2 to you? 

!3 A A mutual acknowledgement. 

:4 Q He seemed to know about it independent of your 

5 telling him? 

Pagem Vernon E. Jordan, Jr., 5/28/98 

Page 23 

1 A I have to assume that. 

2 Q What would be the general nature of the discussions 

3 you had with Mr. Lindsey about Ms. Lewinsky? 

4 A I don’t remember having any specific discussion 

5 with Bruce Lindsey about Ms.,Lxwinsky because thm was 

6 nothing Bruce Lindsey could do to help me in that process, 

7 but I think that if Betty Currie knew it, the President knew 

8 it, I have to assume that Bruce Lindsey knew it. 

9 Q Now, as you’ll recall, we’ve focused on the fact 

I0 that there were two aspects at differing times to your 

II involvement with Ms. Lcwinsky. One was t;X: job search front 

12 and the other was her legal, getting subpoenaed and being a 

13 possible witness in the Paula Jones case. 

14 A Yes, but the order is reversed. She came to me 

15 first to get a job. 

16 QW@-. 

.7 A And it was subsequent thereto that I secured her a 

8 lawyer. 

9 Q Right. We& actmd~y, 1 think that’s the order 

!O I gave them in, but in any event, the question I had is you 

!l told us that your discussion with Mills related to the 

!2 fmt, namely, the fact that you were helping her get a job. 

13 Did your discussion with Ms. Mills about 

14 Ms. Lewinsky, and, again, prior to January 18th and 19th, 

15 ever address the second aspect, namely, that Ms. Lewinsk: 

Page 2r 

I was a possible witness in the Paula Jones case? 

2 A I’ve never discussed Ms. Lcwinsky being a witness 

3 with Paula Jones. I’ve not had that discussion. 

4 Q Or the fact that she had come to you to get 

5 an attorney or anything that relates to the legal side 

6 of Ms. Lewinslcy in that December and early January 

7 timeframe? 

8 A No. I do not discuss legal matters with Cheryl 

9 Milk. I have no need to discuss legal matters with 

0 Cheryl MiIls, but I do have general conversations with her. 

1 Q Same question but as to Bruce Lindsey. 

2 A 1 certainly don’t discuss legal matters with Bruce 

3 Lindsey, but general matters and, as I said to you before, I 

4 had specific discussions with Bruce Lindsey about my view a 

5 settlement of the Paula Jones case. 

6 Q But both as to Ms. Mills and as to Mr. Lindsey, 

7 prior to January 18th and 19th, you hadn’t had any 

8 discussions with either of them about Ms. Lewinslq and how 

9 she could need a lawyer or be involved in Paula Jones. 

0 A No. No. 

1 MR. BIENBRT AU right Now, I think we can p2 tothenwrtuhibitandthiswillbttbephoncsummaryfol 

3 January 9, 1998. I’ll place what we’ll call ~-W-T in . T 

4 front of you, sir. It’s a two-page document that itemizes 

5 13 calls and let’s look at them and just sort of note some of 

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1 tbcm summarily and tbcn well ’ come back ar.d discuss some of 1 Q Now, at I:29 -- and, once again, keep in mind the 

2 them. 2 Stratus residence calls only round off to the rnimJte. so i 

3 (Grand Jury Exhibit So. d-VI-7 3 could have been a shorter call than that., do you feel thx 

4 was marked for identification.) 4 it’s likely that you did or did not speak to Ms. Leuinshy in 

5 BY MR. BIENEFC 5 either of those I:29 calls? 

6 Q First of all, I’ll just note to you, I’ll represent 6 A Counsel, given the length of these calls, it’s my 

7 to you that Ms. Lewinsky interviewed on the 9th at Revlon at 7 judgment that I did not speak to her. 

8 somewhere around I 1:30 in the morning, on that day. 8 Q SO that they were likely messages trying to get a 

9 So at 10:19, there was a 54-second call from your 9 hold of you. 

o office phone to Mr. Perelman and thzn there was a 1:29 I o A I think that’s a fair assumption. 

I +I -- both of them are brief. 11 Q Now, if we go up to the 4: 14 p.m. call, a 

2 At 1:29, there was a very short call from 12 ~e~~~-minute call from Mr. Straus’ residence in New York to 

3 Mr. Stmus’ residence to your offlice inside number, followed 13 your office, your inside line. Do you believe that you spoke 

4 immediately by another short call to your general off& line 14 to Ms. Lewinsky in that call? 

5 at Akin Gump,., followed by several hours la& 15 A Yes. I haveto assume that I did. It’s a 

6 at4:14p~.aseven-minutecal)betweenMr.Straus’ 16 sev~n-xninut~ call and based on what you just told me, that 

7 residence and your inside line. 17 she was interviewed on the 9th, which I don’t reqember 

8 Do you see those, sir? 18 thm 1 have to assume that that was a call where she is 

9 A I do. 19 telling me about her interview. 

‘0 Q Ail right. Let’s focus on them for a second. 20 MR BIENERT: And what I’m going to do is hand you 

I First of all, you told us about the conversation you bad on 21 what we’ll mark as -- 

2 the 8th what you callezi Mr. Pa&nan to mention Ms. Lcwinsky 22 Wbat is our next number, ma’am? I don’t remember. 

:3 to him and be said hed ’ see what be could do. What was going 23 THE WITNESS: This is 7. 

4 on on this short conversation the next day? 24 MR. BIENERT: Thank you, sir. 

5 A I cannot be certain that I had a 54-second 25 4-~-8. Actually, we’ll make it 9. We’re just 

Page 26 Page 28 

I conversation with Mr. Pereiman at 10: 19 cm January 9th 1 going to have them out of order. It will be easier. 

2 Q Meaning that you believe it might have been a 2 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. l-VI-9 ‘ ' 

3 message? 3 was marked for identification.) 

4 A Could have been. I just don’t - I’ve never had a 4 BY MR. BIENERT: 

5 54-s&ond conversation with Ronald Pcrebnao and my suspicion 5 Q Okay. I’m going to place in front of you what is 

6 is that there:was no conversation at all. I cannot testify 6 4-VJ-9 and I’ll represent to you, sir, that this is a 

7 accurately to that. 7 document that was retrieval from Ms. L&n&ys ’ computer and 

8 Q Let me ask you this. You told us that on the 8th 8 that there qe some additional characters here that seem out 

9 when you spoke to Mr. Perelman he said words to the effect 9 of place that were a result of the fact the do&ment had been 

o that he would look into it. 10 deleted from her computer but was thereafter retrieved. And 

1 A bkinto it. 11 I would ask if you would just look this document over for a 

2 Q Did be ever call you back or did you ever have any 12 second. 

3 communication with him where be indicated Tut be bad looked 13 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Bienert, is it on the 

4jnto it or words to that effect? 14 chronology? And, if so, which page? 

5 A No. I5 MR. BIENERT: No, maam. ’ Its ’ npt. Since its ’ not 

6 Q Would you have been speaking with Mr. Perelman 16 a phone call. 

7 around this timeframe, January 9th, about any other topics? 17 And, for the record, this is a document that on 

8 A That’s possible. 18 its ’ face purports to be a draft or a letter to Thomas 

9 Q Are there any topics that come to mind? 19 Schick Executive Vice Rcsidcnt of American Express Company 

0 A Well, I’m his lawyer, I’m a member of his board, 20 and it goes on to state, “Dear Mr. Schick: ?hank you very 

I and I’m his friend. It could have been anything. 21 much for meeting with me before the holidays to discuss my 

2 Q But nothing specific comes to mind. 22 career in communications. I am certain you keep a busy 

3 A Ndhing spezif?c comes to mind. 23 schedule and I appreciated your taking the time. It was 

4 Q AII right. Now -- 24 bmehial for me to have spoken with your. Your candor 

5 A Especially in a 54-second conversation. 25 afforded me insight. It was very kind of you to offer your 

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I assistance in putting me in touch with some agencies. 

2 However, I have secured a position in public relations 

3 at Revlon. I am very excited. Again, thank you for meeting 

4 with me. Sincerely, Monica Lewinsky.” And it’s dated 

s 9 January ‘98. 

6 BY MR. BIENERT: 

7 Q Now, first of all, sir, Thomas Schick, do you know 

8 Thomas Schick? 

9 A Very well. 

0 Q And you know him to work at American Express, 

1 correct? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q And you know that he was one’of the persons whc 

4 after you had made a call in December to American Express 

5 about Monica Lewinsky, you know that Mr. Schick is one of 

6 the persons who interviewed her, correct? 

-.. 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q Now, did Monica Lzwinsky indicate to you in the 

9 call that you had on the 9th the seven-minute call that 

:O we’re looking at, that she had gotten the job? 

:1 A I have to assume that 

:2 Q So you believe it’s something that she would have 

13 told you. 

:4 A Yes. If she got a job, I think she would have told 

5 me. 

Page 3C 

1 Q And do you remember her telling you that she got 

2 the job? 

3 A I think so, but I just have to assume that if she 

4 got the job and we have a seven-minute conversation and the 

5 day before I had talked to the chairman, I have to assume 

6 that the Jordan magic worked. 

7 Q And you certainly -- you know that -- at some 

8 point, you were told that the Jordan magic worked, namely, 

9 that she got the job. 

0 A Yes. And I have to assume that she told me that on 

1 the 9th and I think that’s confirmed by this e-mail to Tom 

2 Schick. 

3 Q All right. Now, if we go to the next call, it’s a 

4 call 4:27 from your office to Howard Gittis at Revlon for 

5 four minutes. Do you see that, sir? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q NOW, you’ve told us that Howard Gittis was someone 

8 you had spoken with on business related matters relating to 

9 Revlon, correct? 

0 A Yes. 

1 Q And that at least in the times we’ve discussed him 

2 in the past, you had not discussed Ms. Lewinsky with Mr. 

3 Gittis, correct? 

4 A That’s right. 

5 Q Now, at this point, based on what we’ve just 

Pag: 3 I 

1 discussed, it is likely that you had just been made aware 

2 that Ms. Lewinsky was going to work at Revlon, correct? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Do you believe that at that time, in that 4:27 

5 call, that you would have said anything to Mr. Gittis aboc: 

6 Ms. Lewinsky? 

7 A I doubt it. 

8 Q why is that? 

9 A Just simply because I was dealing with Ronald 

0 Perelman on this issue. I had no reason to talk to Howard 

I about it. And I have to assume that I was talking with 

2 Howard, who is the vice chairman of Revlon, about another 

3 matter. 

4 I don’t recall having a conversation with Howard 

5 Gittis about Monica hwinsky until Ibc morning of tk 20th or 

6 21st,whcnIhadbrcakfastwithhimandyouhavcancordof 

7 that. 

8 Q Okay. Now, when you mentioned that you would 

9 assume that Ms. L&n&y told youwhen she got the job, 

o I mean, that would be based partly on the fact that 

1 Ms. Lewinsky had been trying very hard to get the job a 

2 Revlon and that you knew that she would be very excited 

3 about getting it, correct? 

4 A And if she got the job on the 9th and I talked to 

5 her for seven minutes, I am absolutely certain that she tolr 

Page 3; 

I me that she had been hired. 

2 Q And that was an unusually long conversation between 

3 you and her, correct? 

4 A Yes. %%n minutes iS pretty long. 

5 Q All right. Let’s focus on the next series of calls 

6 which start at 5:04, call number 7. We’re going to look at 

7 calls number 7,8,9, 10 and Il. And, actually, we’ll carry 

B over 12 and 13, we’ll just go through these calls becam 

9 they’re all in a series. 

0 First of all, 5:04, call from Peter Straus’ 

1 residence in New York to your office for one minute or less. 

2 5:05, a call from Peter Straus’ office to Ms. 

3 Cunie’s office, one minute or less. 

I 5:07, a call from President Clinton to Betty Curric 

s and 1’11 place in front of you 4-~~-8, which is the 

5 presidential calI log reflecting that President Crinton ant 

7 Ms. Currie did talk at that time. 

3 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-~~-8 

? was marked for identification.) 

I BY MR. BIBNBRT: 

I Q And immediately thereafter or within two mini.’ -- 

1 after, a call from Peter Stmus’ residence to your office, a 

t two-minute call. 

I Now, first of all, looking at this series of calls, 

i in the 5:09 entry, entry number 10, which is a call from 

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1 Peter Straus’ residence to your office just after the calls 

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1 was S60,OOO and I thought she was lucky to get 40. 

2 with Betty Ctie and then Betty Currie and the President, 2 Q So you do have a specific recollection that at son-z 

3 did Ms. Lewinsky indicate to you that she had notified Betty 3 point after she let you know she was offered the job she 

4 Currie or anyone at the White House that she had gotten the 4 discussed with you the specific issue of salary. 

5 job? 5 A Yes. I think that’s fairly right. 

6 A I have no recollection of her telling me that she 6 Q Now, first of all, let’s go back to the 

7 had notified the White House. 7 seven-minute call where we’re assuming she told you that she 

8 Q Okay. Do you feel that she never did tell your 8 had actually gotten the job at Revlon. How did that make yo 

9 that or is it something that could have happened and you 9 feel? 

o don’t recall? 10 A Relief comes to mind. Satisfied. Job done. Mov 

1 A I just don’t know why she would tell me, number II on to the next thing. 

2 one, that she had called the white House. 12 Q’ why did you feel relieved? 

3 Q Well, you and her had talked about Betty Currie in 13 A I was getting all these calls. This lady wanted a 

4 some of your conversations, right? 14 job. It’s something I’ve done, completed, end of file. I 

5 A Well, Betty Currie made the fmt call to me about IS can go on to something else. 

6 her and what transpired in Ms. L&n&y’s calls to the White 16 Q And is one of the reasons why you felt relief 

7 House, I do not know. 17 because, as you’ve indicated before, Ms. L.ewinsky had 

8 Q And your recollection is that she certainly -- by 18 bordered on being a nuisance with the persistence of her 

9 the Januaty timeframe, Ms. Lewinsky was not advising you 19 calls in the months of December and January? 

0 what, if any, calls she was having with Ms. Cunie or anyone 20 A Bordered on is the correct word. Yes. 

I at the White House. Is that accurate? 21 Q And that it was a relief not only to have completec 

2 A That’S I$$& 22 a job and done a job well, but to get to the point where you 

3 Q And then I would ask --just for the record, I’ll 23 would no longer be dealing with Ms. Lew-insky, who hat 

4 ask you the same question which is if we go forward, if you’d 24 bordered on being a nuisance. 

5 look at that second page, sir, which is call 12, in the 25 A 1 think that’S a fair assessment. 

Page 34 Page 36 

1 intervening moments, there’s the 5:09 two-minute call from 1 Q Now, the call at 5: 18 p.m. was you calling 

2 Ms. Lewinsky’s location at Peter Straus’ residence to your 2 Ms. Lewinsky back as opposed to her calling you. 

3 number. 3 A Yes. I think I’m trying to return her call from 

4 Thereafter, there’s a one-minute call that does not 4 5:OS. 

5 involve you, then there was a 5:18 call, this time from your 5 

6 office, although it is your number, to Mr. Straus’ 

Q Or 5:09, actually, 1 guess. 

6 A Or whenever. Yes. 

7 residence for two minutes and 48 seconds. 7 Q So then looking at this, you think that a likely 

8 Do you believe that that would have been a call 8 scenario k&e 5:09 call you were unable to speak with her 

9 that you would have participated in? 9 and then returned the call at 5:18? 

0 A That may have been a call placed by Gayle Laughlin. 10 A I think that’s a fair assumption. 

1 That is her extension and it is likely that it’s a call 11 Q Now, if you look at the timing of your call number 

2 placed by Gayle Laughlin to, I have to assume, Monica 12 12, she’s on the phone with you from 5:lS for approximately 

3 Lewinsky. 13 three minutes, two minutes and 48 seconds. 

4 Q Can you think of any nzason why Ms. Laughlin would - 14 A Yes. 

5 call Ms. Lewinsky on January 9th? 15 Q She then immediately there at the next entry, at 

6 A Yes, probably for me. And it is -- I mean, I have 16 5:2 1, there’s a call from the residence where Ms. Lewinsky 

7 to assume that I had a conversation with her for two minutes 17 was, Peter Straus’, to Betty Cuxrie’s office. And, by the 

8 and 48 seconds. What I rananher is that sht was happy about 18 way, while your document does not indicate it, Mr. Lcmer haz 

9 the job but not happy about the salary. 19 just written in mine, that was a five-minute call. 

0 ’ She thought that -- I think she was going to be 20 A Between Lewinsky and Betty Currie. 

1 paid $40,000 and she wanted S60,OOO and I think that my 21 Q Yes, sir. 

2 conversation with her was that she was not negotiating money, 22 A I don’t know anything about that. 

3 but she was negotiating opportunity and that this was an 23 Q Well, let’s go back to your call. Did Ms. Lewinsky 

4 opportunity. And I have to assume that that is what that 24 in your call at 5:18 say anything to you that related to the 

5 conversation was about. As I remember, she thought her value 25 Resident, the White House or Betty Cunie? 

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1 A I have no xtXdeCt.iOn of that. 

2 Q Did Ms. Lewinsky say anything in that call that 

3 swes*zd that she might be in contact with the White Ho*st? 

4 A I have no recollection of that. 

5 MR. BIENERT: All right. That’s all the questions 

6 I have on January 9th. 

7 Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, we’re now up to ti 

8 next phone summary, which is a short one, with two dates, 

9 January 10th and Januaxy 1 lth. 

10 Sir, I’ll place in front of you what is 4-VJ-10, 

II whichis.thelOthandthellth. 

I2 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-VJ-10 

13 was marked for identification.) 

14 l-I-E FOREPERSON: Excuse me. 

IS h4R. BIENERT: Yes, ma’am? 

16 THEFOREPERSON: hl hOkiIlg attheChronO~O~,~ 

;7 shows that Mr. Jordan went to London~‘England on the 9th. 

18 MR. BIENERT: of? 

19 THE FOREPERSON: Oh, I’m Sorry. I’m looking at the 

!O wrong dates. I’m sorry. I’m looking at the 1 lth. I thought 

!1 it was January. 

!2 MR. BIENERT: And I’ll just note for the record, 

13 and certainly I would encourage you, Mr. Jordan, I would jus 

14 observe Mr. Jordan has a calendar in front of him, his ow 

25 calendar, and I believe he is consulting it and certainly 

Page 31 

Vernon E. Jordan. Jr.. 5/‘28/98 I I 

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I House on that date? 

2 A I do not. It’s a Saturday afternoon, I just don’t 

3 know what it was about. 

4 Q Do you believe it might have related to Monica 

5 Lewinsky? 

6 A I don’t know, counsel. 

7 Q At some point in time, you did notify persons at 

8 the White House that Ms. Lewinsky had in fact gonCn a job, 

9 correct? 

0 A I am certain at some point I told Betty Currie 

I mission accompli&d. When that was, I do not know, but at 

2 some point I am fairly certain that I communicated that with 

3 some degree of relief and contentment., I would suppose. 

4 Q And do you recall whether that was a face-to-face 

5 conversation or over the phone? 

6 A It was not a face-to-face conversation. 

7 Q So it would have been over the telephone. 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q And do you believe that that is more or less what 

10 you literally would have said, which is something akmg the 

11 lines of as to Monica Lewinsky, mission accomplished? 

12 A Something like that. Or tell the President that it 

13 happened. 

14 Q Did you have to explain to Ms. Currie what the 

15 mission was or what it was? 

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1 A I’m not even sure I used the word mission 

2 accomplished, okay? But I am c@ain at some point because 

3 thefustcallcamefromMs.CuniethatIsaidtoherthatI 

4 had taken = of the business and the business was finding 

5 private employment in New York for Monica Lewinsky 

6 Q Well, now, as of this time, and now we’re talking 

7 about January 9th or later, based on what you’ve toid us 

8 before, you had already indicated to Ms. Currie and/or the 

9 President at different times obviously that you were helping 

D Ms. Lewinsky try to find a job, but also you bad conveyed 

I information at pertinent times about getting her Frank Carter 

2 as an attorney and that she had signed an affidavit. 

3 Correct? 

4 A (brec%. 

5 Q When you umveyecl the information about mission 

6 accomplished or whatever were the words to Ms. Currie, 

7 what was it about tbc conversation that you believe indicated 

B that you were referring to the job aspect as opposed to 

9 something related to getting her Frank Carter or the legal 

D aspect? 

1 A It was about the job. The Frank Carter thing w2 done, so there was no need for a continuing conversation. 

3 What was not done was the completion of her getting hired. 

4 She was hired on the 9th and at some point that got 

5 communicated. At what point, w&n, I dont ’ know. It was oat 

L 

1 would encourage him to do so. 

2 And if at any point that calendar causes you to 

3 want to rell us some information about wk your w-bouts 

4 may have heen as they relate to the documents were ’ showing 

5 you, we would certainly you to do so.. 

6 Is that fair, sir? 

7 THE WITNESS: Fair. 

8 MR.BIENERT: Okay? 

9 THE FOREPERSON: Mm-hm.m. 

0 MR. BIENERT: Okay. So we’ll proceed. We’re now 

I on January 10th. 

2 BY MR. BIENERT: 

3 Q Now, this would be the next day and there are two 

4 calls listed both one after the other. There is a very 

5 sho& what were ’ assuming would be a message, at 3:02 from 

6 Mr. Jordan’s office to the White House counsel’s office. 

7 Do you see that, sir? 

8 A I do. , 

9 Q And based on the fact that it was 24 seconds, do 

:O you believe it would have been a message? 

‘1 A I just don’t know what else you can do in 24 

2 seconds. 

3 Q And then if we look immediately thereafter, there 

‘4 is a one-minute and 18-second call to the White House 

:5 operator. Do you why you would have been calling the White 

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I at the White House, it was not a face-to-face conversation. ! 1 

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2 I would not have made a trip to the White House to tell Betty ! 2 

A x0. 

Q Are YOU 3uwe Of the fact that ~MMs. Lcwinsky’s 

3 Cunie that. I 3 aunt’s name is Finerrnan? 

4 Q Is it fair to say that you had viewed the aspect of j 4 A x:0. 

5 your mission, for lack of a better word, of getting 5 Q Hav: you ever had any kind of a meeting or meal 

6 Ms. Lcwinsky an attorney, that that had been done already. / 6 with anyo x th3: ‘ LOU knew to be reserving it under Ihe name 

7 A I did that. / 7 Finennan? 

a Q That was past news. 43 A I never Lard of the name Finerman. 

9 A She had counsel, she was in the hands of a counsel, 9 Q And I think YOU told US this before but I want to 

o 1 had no need to communicate about that. 10 make sure I’m clear. Did you at any ttie have any kind of a 

1 Q And you were finished with that aspect of things. 11 meal at the Park Hyatt with Monica Lewinsky? 

2 A The moment I introduced her to Frank Carter. 12 A No. 

3 Q Now, you indicated that whenever this conversation 13 THE FOREPERSON: Excuse me, Mr. Bienert. It’s time 

4 would have occurred that you had indicated to Ms. Currie 14 for the grand jury to take a break. 

5 plods to the effect of tell the President that it’s done or 15 MR. BJENERT: Okay 

6 mission accomplished- 16 THE FOREPERSON: we’re going to take a ten-minute 

7 A I said to her - I have to assume that this was the 17 break and we should resume at ten minutes before the hour. 

8 flow of the conversation, given the way I talk, it’s done, 18 MR. BIENERT: Okay. Thank you, ma’am. 

9 Betty, Monica Iewinsky has a job, would you convey that tc 19 THE WlTNE!jS: Thank you. 

o the President. 20 (Witness excused. Witness recalled.) 

1 Q Do you believe that you personally conveyed that to 21 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Bienett, we have a quorum. 

2 the President? 22 There are no unauthorized people in this room. 

3 A I think I conveyed it through Betty Currie, but at 23 Mr. Jordan, you are still under oath. 

4 some point, I’m sure that the President and I talked about 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

5 the fact that I got her a job. 25 THE FOREPERSON: You’re welcome. 

Page 42 Page 44 

I Q And when you say at some point, this is still prior 1 BY MR. BIENERT: 

2 to the news of the allegations about Ms. Lewinsky and the 2 Q Mr. Jordan, first of all, I just want to make a 

3 President coming out. 3 clarification because we certainly don’t want you to be 

4 A Yes. 4 misled In terms of the letter that was taken from 

5 Q Okay. Now let’s focus on the next entry on 5 Ms. Lewin&y’s computer with the date of January 9th on it t 

6 that same page, which is January 11, 1998. Again, there’s 6 Mr. Schick, just once again just to make sure you do 

7 a short message to Cheryl Mills, White House counsel. 7 understand, our representation to you is that we retrieved 

8 Any particular reason that comes to mind as to why you 8 that in the-form you see from her computer, but that we are 

9 would have been leaving a message for Ms. Mills at that 

0 time? 

9 not able to say with any certainty that the letter was 

10 actually sent on that day or that the date is right, et 

1 A Well, no, I don’t. II cetera. I just want to make sure you’re aware of that in 

2 MR. BIENERT: And I’m going to go ahead and show 12 terms of.our representation to you. 

3 you what we’re marking as 4-VJ-11. 13 A Thank you. 

4 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-VJ-11 14 Q And if that alters any of your -- if I understand 

5 was marked for identification.) I5 what you wue saying, and just to make sure we’re clear, you 

6 BY MR. BlENERT: 16 are not sure that she told you on the 9th that she had the 

7 Q Sir, I’ll represent to you that this is a copy of 17 job at Revlon, although you think she could have. 

8 the reservation sheet from the Park Hyatt. It was obtained 18 A IhavetO assume, based on what you said to me, 

9 from them and this one in particular relates to January 11 th, 19 that she got the job on the 9th. I just assumed that. 

o which is a Sunday. 20 Q But it could have been a few days later, if that’s 

1 A h&n-hmm. 21 when she actually got the job, that she would have conveyed 

2 Q And if you notice, I’ve highlighted it on your 22 it to you as well. 

3 sheet, there’s an entry at 11 am. showing a party under the 23 A Couldhiivebeen. 

4 name of Finerman, F-i-n-r-m-a-n, for two people. Do you 24 MR. BJENERTZ Just depends. Okay. All right. 

5 know anything about that reservation? 25 Now, we’re up to the 12th. I have placed before you -- 

a. .-. 2. 

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2 show that you left for Florida until the next day, the 13th? 

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1 And, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this is the 

2 call log with the date of January 12, 1998 on it. It’s tw( 1 

3 pages. 3 A That is correct. The 13th. 

4 THEFOREPERSON: Exhibit number? 4 Q And is it accurate that your calendar entries woulc 

5 MR. BIENERT: I’m sony. Exhibit No. 4-VJ-12. And 5 indicate that you were in Washington on the 12th? 

6 it has 11 calls on it. 6 A That’s true. 

7 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-W-12 7 Q All right. Now, let’s go back to call number 4, 

8 was marked for identification.) 8 which was a call to White Houz counsel’s office from your 

9 BY MR. BIENERT: 9 phone for a minute and six sxonds. Do you know why you 

0 Q Now, let’s start glancing at these. First of all, IO would have been calling White House counsel’s office? 

1 at 11: 18 a.m., thezc was a call from Frank Carter’s number to 11 A I do not. 

2 Monica Lewinsky’s paga with a message that says “Please call 12 Q Okay. Do you believe it might have related to 

3 Frank Carter at _I 13 Monica Lewinsky? 

4 At 11:26, there was a five-minute call from Peter 14 A I doubt it. 

5 Straus’ residence in New York to Frank Carter for five 15 Q If we look at calI number 5,4:09, there is a 

6 mhU&S. 

7 And then at 11:50, there was I;‘call from Peter 

16 four-minute call from Peter Stmus residence to your office, 

17 then at the same time, there is a one-minute and 18-second 

8 Straus’ residence to your office and it shows that it was one 18 caUfromyouroff~icctoRobertNashandthenat4:17,there 

9 minute which based on the way those calls from Mr. Straus’ 19 was another call - well, &Ice that. Let’s focus on these 

0 residence are recorded would mean one minute or less. Do 20 two calls at 5 and 6. 

1 you see that, sir? 21 First of all, sir, you know who Bob Nash is, 

2 A Yes. 22 correct? 

3 Q Now, based on the short length of that call, do you , 23 A Yes. He’s the White House personnel director. 

4 believe that you would have spoken to Ms. Lewinsky in that 1 24 Q And as far as you understand is what does that 

5 1 I:50 a.m. call? , 

a 2s mean he does, he’s in charge of? 

Page 46 Page 4a 

1 A I don’t know. 1 A Personnel. Appointments. Jobs. 

2 Q All right. 2 Q People who actually work in the White House. 

3 A I had an appointment with a lawyer in my office on 3 A That’s correct. And in the administration. 

4 the 12th at 11:30 and I took a 2:30 plane to St. Petersburg. 4 Q And based on your understanding of what Mr. Nash 

5 Q And you left for St. Petersburg on the 12th? 5 does, when Ms. Lewinsky worked in the Legislative Affairs 

6 A I left for St. Petersburg on the 12th, according to 6 office at tbc White HOW, would sbc have been down tbc totan 

I my calendar. 7 pole working under Bob Nash? 

8 Q Let’s look at some of the other calls and then 8 A I don’t know the answer to that 

9 we’ll come back to that. All right. 9 Q Would it be your un&rstanding that Bob Nash would 

0 In terms of the next series of calls, and we’ll 1 IO have had any say in any hiring or firing of somebody like 

1 focus on the time starting with call number 4,3:33, there 1 :I Ms. Lewinsky who worked in the White House? 

2 was a call from your number for a minute and six seconds to 1 i2 A Given his responsibility, he probably would have 

3 the general White House counsel’s office number. 1 3 had some say so, artainly would have been on notia about 

4 A If that was on the 12th, I was on the Challenger 1 4 it. 

5 flying from Washington to St. Petersburg. 1 5 Q Now, sir, I’ll make a representation to you that in 

6 Q And I guess one of the questions I’m going to have : 1 6 one of the tape recorded conversations between Ms. Minsky 

7 for you is in looking at your calendar, which for the record, 1 7 and Linda Tripp, Ms. Lcwidcy indicates that sbc is con& 

B in Mr. Jordan’s calendar it indicates -- there’s an entry on 1 8 in her job hunting effort that if a reference has to call ti 

9 January 12th -- actually, no, sir. This explains the 1 9 White House about ha that Bob Nash would not give ha a vay 

3 inconsistency. If you look at it, you’re lo&ing at the 2 10 good recommendation. 

1 13th. The 12th is the day in the left-hand e&mm, the 13th 2 :1 First of all, let’s go back now to calls 5 and 6. 

2 is the day in the middle column. 2 .2 The four-minute Call between Ms. Lcwin&y’s residence i. 

3 A Okay. 2 

4 Q Okay. So now focusing on the 12th -- 2 

5 A All right. 2 L 

3 New York, namely Peter Straus’ house, and your office ‘V’ 

4 folkal by the same time an outgoing call from your phone to 

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i hold, where you either spoke with her or were notified by a 1 A Just a minute. No, no, no. I did not -- I said 

2 secretary that she had called but you didn’t talk to her 2 to you that Ms. Letinsky did not deal with mc on 

3 immediately but took care of other matters such as a call? 3 recommendations. Let me tell you why. It was not necessar] 

4 A I don’t have any recollection of that. 4 in the process that I was going through for me to get letters 

5 Q Is that the type of thing that you think could 5 of recommendation for Monica Lewinsky. My word was cno@. 

6 happen? 6 Q One of the things you had discussed with 

7 A I try not to keep people on hold. 7 Ms. Lewinsky was getting her job at, among other places, 

8 Q Have you ever kept Ms. Lewinsky on hold? 8 Revlon, correct? 

9 A I don’t think so. As. a general practice, because I 9 A That is correct. 

0 think it’s bad manners, I do not have people on hold. I say 10 Q And you indicated to us that you were pleased, or 

I tothemIcannottall<tothem,Iwillcallthemback. Butto 11 words to that effect, when you learned that she might have a 

2 have them hold while I have another conversation, I think 12 job at Revlon. 

3 that’s bad manners and I try not to do that. 13 A That is correct. 

4 Q But you can’t preclude that it would happen. 14 Q And part of tk reason for that was because you had 

5 A I’m fairly certain that it did not happen. 15 mcompliskd your mission or you had done what you set out to 

6 Q AU right. Well, did Ms. Lewinsky ever indicate to 16 do on her behalf, correct? 

7 you that she was coneunai about what ncomm&ation, if any, 17 A That is correct 

8 she would get - 18 Q And you are aware, sir, that companies Iike Revlon 

9 A No. I have no recollection of her -- 19 on which you sit on the board, they want references from 

0 Q Let me finish my question, just for the record. 20 people before they hire them, cor&t? 

:I A sure. 21 A May I answer? 

2 Q Did Ms. Lewinsky ever indicate to you, sir, 22 Q Absolutely. 

3 that she had concerns about what, if anything, her 23 A Ronald Perelman never asked me for a letter of 

‘4 recommendation from the White House would be in terms of 24 recommendation or a letter from myself or from others having 

5 getting a job? 25 to do with Monica Lcwinsky. Letters of recommendation never 

Page 50 Page 52 

1 A I have no recollectitin of Ms. Lewinsky being I entered into these conversations. 

2 concerned about what the White House would say in terms 2 Q And that’s because as to your discussions with 

3 of recommending her for a job. I have no recollection of 3 h4r. P&man, you don’t nad to give a recotnmcndati~n per SC 

4 that. 4 because you’re calling on her behalf, correct? 

5 Q Did Ms. Lewinsky ever indicate to you in regard to 5 A That is correct. And secondly, to the extent that 

6 the Revlon offer or any of her job attempts, attempts to get 6 Revlon chose to go through a process of seeking letters of 

7 jobs, that she would need recommendations? 7 rxommcndation, I was not involved in that process and I know 

8 A I have no recollection of that. 8 nothing abgut it. 

9 Q Do you have a recollection of anything relating to 9 Q And I think you’ve answered that, the topic, but 

0 the topic of recommendations coming up with Ms. Lewinsky? 10 just to make sure I’m clear, I want to make a distinction 

1 A No. 11 W wbaha or not anyone from Revlon asked you, Vunbn 

2 Q First of all, looking at phone call number 6, 12 Jordan, for a recommendation or a reference by her versus 

3 4:09 to Bob Nash for a minute and 18 seconds from your 13 whether or not there was any discussion between you and 

4 inside line, do you believe that that is a call that you 14 Monica Lewinsky or you and anyone else about other people 

5 would have made to Mr. Nash? 15 aside from yourself as to whether they would be a reference 

6 A I believe it’s possible that it was a call that I 16 for her or provide a recommendation. 

7 would make to Mr. Nash. I also am fairly certain that it was 17 So, first of all, before answering, do you 

8 a call having nothing to do with Monica Lewinsky. 18 understand the distinction I’m making? 

9 cj And why are you fairly certain of that? 19 A Not exactly. What I want you to understand and the 

0 A I had no reason to discuss Monica Lewinsky with 20 grand jury to understand is that I did not need letters of 

1 Robert Nash. 21 rccommcndation, number one; and, number two, I was not askai 

2 Q Well, sir, if Monica Lewinsky called you and 22 to provide letters of recommendation. 

3 indicated she needed a recommendation - 23 Q Did you when you called Bob Nash and spoke to him ’ 

4 A Shedidnot- 24 on January 12th discuss in any way Monica Lcwinsky? 

5 Q Let me finish my question. 25 A I have no recollection of having any discussion at 

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any time with Bob Nash about Monica tinsky simply because 

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about Monica Lewinsky. 

Q And the reason there was no need for you to do SC 

if I understand what you’re saying, is twofold. First of 

all, on your own, you don’t believe you should have to have 

such a recommendation and, number two, no one, including 

Ms. Lewinsky, ever asked you to talk to Bob Nash about her. 

A That is correct. And the third is that there was 

nothing Bob Nash could do to facilitate the process that I 

was involved in in trying to get her a job at Revlon. 

Q All right. Well, let me back up. Explain that. 

Why is there nothing that Bob Nash could have done to 

facilitate Ms. Lewinsky getting a job at Revlon? 

A I did not need his help. 

Q Well, let’s go back to when you testified here 

March 3rd and March 5th of this year. kou told us at that 

time, sir, did you not, that you made no representations 

rqarding Ms. Lcwin&y to Revlon acd the otba companies, but 

simply asked them to interview her and it was up to them to 

decide in their normal course of business whether to hin 

her. Correct? 

A And I don’t believe that that is inconsistent with 

what I’ve just said. 

Q Did you hear my question, sir? 

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Q Is that what you told us March 3rd and 5th? 

A I have to accept that. 

Q Well, whether you aCCf?pt it or not., let's 

just start from scratch. Did you when you contacted 

McAndre~x & Forbes and other cornpanics around Daxmbcr 1 ltb, 

12th. et cetera of 1997, did you make any representations to 

any of the people you contacted as to whether Ms. Lewinsky 

was or was not a good employee? 

A I said in effect that I had met Ms. Lewinsky, I 

found her to be impressive, she had told me what she had don 

in the White House and as far as I was concerned, that was 

enough. 

I asked them to interview her and based on their 

needs and based on their interview with her, I was confident 

that they would make a decision based on their needs. 

Q And did you expect that when these companies 

interviewed Ms. Lcwinsky they would follow their normal 

procedures and make their own decision as to whether or not 

they believed she was a good employee? 

A Absolutely. 

Q And did you when you made that assumption assume 

that among ok things tbcy would decide for tbcmselv~~ what 

references would be appropriate to check? 

A I did make that assumption. 

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Q And that they would incorporate any information 

they got from references in any decision they made as +- 

whether to hire her? 

A I have to assume that is to be correct 

Q So now let’s go back to your statement a moment ago 

that yen did not believe that any references would be 

necessuy, or words to that effecf in terms of whether 0: 

not Revlon would hire Monica Lewinsky. 

A h’o references from me. I made a reference and that 

was sufCcient from my standpoint. 

Q From your standpoint. 

A Right. 

Q But is it accurate that you were not representing 

to us that you believed it was sufficient for Revlon to 

decide to hire her regardless of what any other reference 

did or didn’t say about her? 

A I am confident that Revlon, American Express am 

Young % Rubicam, tbc thnc companies to which I rcfmui ha, 

that tbcy would - based on heir own procedures and based on 

protecting themselves would do what they have to do. 

Q Now, sir, after you spoke with Bob Nash ;- let’s 

look at call number 5. There was a four-minute call from 

where Ms. Lcwinsky is at Peres Straus’ residence to your 

office. Do you see that, sir? 

A I do. 

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Q Did you speak to Ms. Lewinsky at that time? 

A IhavetoassumethatIdid. 

Q What did you speak with her about? 

A I do not know. 

Q Now, when -- 

A It is logical that it has something to do with the 

fact that she had been employed with Revlon. I just have to 

assume that. 

Q What lingering issues can you recall? 

A I cannot recall any lingering issues. 

Q Now let’s go to the call at 4:17 p.m. where there 

is a call from your inside line to Ms. L&n&y’s locale at 

Peter Straus’ residence. Do you see that, sir? 

A I do. 

Q Why would you calI Ms. Lewhsky? 

A I do not know why I called her back. It is 

obviously related to the eonversaticm that WC had at 4:09. 

If in fact, counsel, you’re tqing to make a connection 

be~thecalltoRobertNashandthecallbacktoMonica 

Lewinsky, I promise you there is no connection. 

Q What was your understanding, if any, as of thir 

timefmme, January 12th, of the status of Ms. Lcwinslq’s 

involvement as a possible witness in the Paula Jones ease? 

A I’m not sun that I knew that she was a witness in 

the Paula Jones case.. 

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1 Q Well, you knew she had been subpoenaed in that I thusly to the President. 

2 case, correct? 2 Q Whenever it was that you and the President had a 

3 A Yes, but when she was to tify and what have you, 3 discussion about the fact that you had succeeded in getting 

4 I don’t -- I mean -- 4 Ms. Lewinsky a job, first of all, what did you say to the 

5 Q What was your understanding of the status as of 5 President? 

6 this time of any of the aflidavit thaz Ms. Lo-wit&y informed 6 A As I recollect, I said Monica Lewinsky’s going to 

I you she had signed in the Paula Jones case? 7 work for Revlon and his response was thank you very much. 

8 A I don’t -understand the question. 8 Q Did you say anything else to him in that 

9 Q Let me back up. Is it accurate, sir, that you told 9 conversation about Ms. Lewinsky? 

0 us last time you were here that you believe around the 7th or IO A There was nothing else to say!. The answer is no. 

1 8th is when Ms. Lcwinsky indicated to you that she had signed 11 v Did the President say anything more to you about 

2 an affidavit in relation to the Paula Jones case? 12 that issue other than thanking you? 

3 A I think that was on the 7th, according to my notes. 13 A No. 

4 Q Okay. So as of the 7th, you were informed by 14 Q Did the President appear to have already known that 

5 <Ms. Ixwinsky and, in fact, I believe you told us she showed 15 shchad the job? 

6 you an affidavit that she had signed in that case. 16 A I don’t Imow the answer to that, counsel. 

7 A That was on January 7th. 17 Q Was there anything about his reaction that allows 

8 Q All right Now we are five days later on January 18 you to say one way or the other whether he did or not? 

9 121h, correct? 19 A No. Just a response of appreciation, gratitude. 

0 A Right. Right. 20 Q Was this discussion in person or over the 

1 Q As of approximately five days later, January 12th, 21 telephone? 

2 what was your understanding of what was done with that 22 A I don’t think I saw the President during that time. 

3 affidavit of Monica Letinsky’s? 23 I don’t think I saw the President until the 17th or the 19th 

4 A I have no understanding of what was done with that 24 on the holiday. Yes. I saw the President on the 19th, the 

5 affidavit. 25 Martin Luther King holiday. 

Page 58 Page 6( 

1 Q Did Ms. Lewinsky ever indicate to you in any of 1 MR. BIENERTZ That’s all the questions I have on 

2 $ese calls, and now we’re looking at the timeframe of 2 January 12th. 

3 &veen the 7th and the 12th, that her filing of that 3 I do want to show you what we’ll mark as the nex 

4 affidavit in the Paula Jones case had any connection to her 4 exhibit. 

5 status in getting a finalized job with any company, including 5 BY MR. LERNER: 

6 Revlon? 6 Q I think you indicated that if you had found out 

7 A Absolutely, unequivocally, indubitably no. 7 that Ms. Izwinsky had a job at Revlon on January 9th. for 

8 Q So you don’t m&I why you would have called 8 example, y.qu wouldn’t have waited until the 12th to convey 

9 Ms. Lewinsky back at 4: 17 on January 12th, correct? 9 that to the President through Betty Cur&. Is that correct? 

D A 1 do not. 10 A That’s correct. 

1 Q Now, about 15 minutes after that call at 4%. you I1 Q So you wouldn’t have waited even three days to 

2 had a fiveminute and six-ssond call to the Wbitc House main 12 convey that to the President, is that right? 

3 operator number, correct? 13 A 1 think at some point Once I got the news, given 

4 A hhn-hmm. 14 my modus operandi, I immediately said to Betty Cunie that 

5 Q That’s the number that you call often when you’re IS Ms. Lcwinsky bad a job. That was the assignment that I was 

6 seeking to speak to the President, correct? 16 asked to do, I did it, and it was done. And I’m certain that 

7’ A That’s right. 17 that was communicated. That is what youdo. 

B Q Did you speak to the President on that day? 18 BY MR. BIENERT: 

9 A I do not know. 19 Q Are you certain that that was eonnnunicated based on 

3 Q Do you believe that this might have been the time 20 you just expect it would have been or was them anything that 

1 that you would have conveyed to the President that you had 21 the President did or said later that made you - or that 

2 secured Ms. Lewinsky a job? 22 Betty Currie said or did later that convinced you that she 

3 A If in fact I knew on the 9th that Monica Lewinsky 23 had communicated that to the President? 

4 had been hited by Revlon, I’m fairly certain that I would not 24 A I have to assume that once I told Betty Currie that 

5 have waited until the 12th to convey it to Betty Cunie and 25 Monica Lewinsky had a job, I have to assume that that was 

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communicated to the President and I am certain tha: uheneva 

I talked to the President subsequent to the fact that she got 

a job that I told him that. 

Q And why is it that you assume that after you 

talked to Betty Currie that she passed that on to the 

President? 

A She was the President’s secretary. She was the 

person who called me at the behest of the President, I 

believe, to ask me to look into Monica Lewinsky getting 

a job, and I have to assume, therefore, that she informed 

the President that I called her and said that Monica Lewinsky 

got a job. I just have to assume that. 

Q And is it also partly because you didn’t just 

inform her that Monica Lewinsky had a job, but you asked he 

to tell the President that. 

A I may have. 

Q Now, sir -- well, let me back‘;ip. When you told 

us about this conversation a little while ago, is it 

accurate that you told her mission accomplished, tell the 

President? 

A Absolutely. 

MR. BIENERT: Now, let’s look at 4-VJ-14. 

Sir, this is a letter dated January 12, 1998 by 

Frank Carter to David Pike, Esquire, who is one of the 

attorneys for Paula Jones. 

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letter and tell us, sir, if you’ve seen it before. 

A No, I have not seen this letter. 

Q And, just for the record, this is a letter with an 

Page 62 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-VJ-14 

was marked for identification.) 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

attachment of an affidavit of Jane Doe number blank that is 

signed by Monica Izwinsky and it has an attachment to it 

showing that it was sworn and subscribed before a notary 

named Kathleen Grimes on January 7,1998. 

Now, you have seen the attachment before, correct 

sir? 

A Yes. She did show me the affidavit. 

Q And that’s the affidavit that she showed you, 

correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, did anyone ever indicate to you that such a 

letter or that in some fashion Mr. Carter was going to 

communicate to the Paula Jones attorneys that he did not 

believe she should have to be &posed because she doesn’t 

have relevant information? 

A No. 

Q Did anyone ever tell you after the fact that such a 

letter had been conveyed? 

Pagem Vernon E. Jordan, Jr., 5/28/98 

Page 63 

1 A No. 

2 MR. BIENE?.:: I think that’s all the questions 1 

3 have on January 12th. 

4 BY MR. EhDSCK: 

5 Q Before we rzove on to 12, if I could just ask a 

6 couple of follow-a:, questions on the Nash phone call issue, 

7 if you will. 

8 A The what? 

9 Q The Nash phone call issue. 

0 A Sure. 

,I Q Thekindsof qu%iOnSIhaVe aredongthe 

2 following lines. I thought you said that you felt Nash 

3 couldn’t facilitate the hiring of Monica Lewinsky. 

4 A Not in tht private sector. No. 

5 Q All right. If Revlon planned to ta.lk to whatever 

6 recommendations Mmiea had, could Nash have ban an obstacle 

7 tothehiringofMonicaLcwinskyifhewnetogivehcrabad 

8 recommendation? 

9 A That’s a fair assumption. 

10 Q If Monica thought he might give her a bad 

11 recom.mendation, is she the kind of pexson who would have 

:Z communicated that to you? 

#3 A I don’t know the answer to that. 

.4 Q Doyoufindhutobeapersonwhoiamstminedin 

5 her discussions with you? 

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A I do not believe that she would - I don’t know tlx 

answertothat. I&m’tknowtbatsbewouldcaUmcupto 

askmetosaytoBobNasbgiveheeagood raemmeadation. but 

that was not an issue. 

Q Would you be at all personally embar&xed if 

having given your vouch, if you will, for Monica Lewinsky 

Revlonwemtomakeacalltoher xcammen&tions like Bob 

Nash and Bob Nash were to say she was lousy? 

A No. 

Q You wouldn’t be personally embarrassed by that? 

A No. That’s happened to me before. 

Q And you didn’t find that personally embarrassing’; 

A I’ve never found it personally embarrassing. 

Sometimes you make mistakes. And I’ve made a few. 

Q If you knew that Bob Nash might give her a poor 

recommendation, might you have called him to sac whether or 

not that was tme or not? 

A No. 

A JUROR: Ihana qtb%iOn. ~thosesamecah, 

Mr. Jordan, as a possible explanation, is it possible that at 

the time Monica picked up the telephone to caII you, you h--’ 

aheady picked up tk telephone to 011 Mr. Nash so that b, 

the time she rcachxi your office you were already on the 1 

telephone? Is it possible that she might have held for a few 1 

minutes to see if you got off the telephone? I 

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1 TlE WlTNESS: I don’t know. It’s possible. What 1 stay with the administration, correct? 

2 is clear to mc is despite the time here that there is no 2 A That is correct. 

3 connection. 1 talk to Bob Nash all the time and I’m talking 3 Q So do I take it from what you’re saying that you 

4 to him about people in the administration. I chaired the 4 belie\*e that a likely topic of conversation with the 

s transition for the President. 1 get tons and tons of mail 5 President around that time would have been Erskine Bowles? 

6 from people. 6 Is th3r ri&t? 

7 I just got a letter from him yesterday based on a 7 A That is my judgment. 

8 recommendation that I had made for some person to chair 8 Q Now, looking at the top two, and specifically, the 

9 somethin& same agency in the govemmen t. AndsoItalkto 9 first page, Monica Lewinsky and Betty Cur& Betty Currie t 

0 himalltktime. 10 Monica, “We’ll know something this afternoon. K.” 

1 I have not talked to him about his recommending I I Now, you had spoken to Monica the day before on the 

2 either positively or negatively Monica Lewinsky in the 12 telephone, correct? 

3 private sector. 13 A Yes. 

4 A JUROR: Just looking at the coincidence of the 14 Q And we have the record, I think there were a few 

s times here, isn’t it possible that you did not actually talk 15 calls. 

6 .to her before you .taIked to Mr. Nash that day? 16 A Right. 

7 THE WITNESS: That’s possible. 17 Q Can you think of any -- does this does this help 

8 MR. BLENERT: Now we’re focusing on January 13th 18 trigger in your mind any ideas of whether there were an: 

9 which is 4-VJ-15. 19 lingering issues or any questions that Ms. Lewinsky had that 

D (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-VJ-IS 20 she wanted to find out an answer to? 

1 was marked for identification.) 21 A I don’t know and I have no knowledge of Monica 

2 THE WITNESS: January 13th is Tuesday. 22 Lcwins&‘s pager about “We’ll know something &is oftcrnoon. 

3 MR. BIENERT: Yes, sir. 1’11 place that in front 23 K.” I don’t know what that’s about. 

4 of you. Just relaying the calls that are present here, calls 24 Q So you have no recollection of anything around that 

5 1 and 2 both reflect pages from Betty Currie to Monica 25 timeframe that Ms. Lewinsky had indicated to you she needed 

Page 66 Page 68 

1 Lewinsky’s pager, the first one with a message reading, 1 to know. 

2 “We’ll knowsometbing thisafternoon. K.” Thesecond at 2 A No. 

3 520 p.m., sayin& “Please call me. Ic” 3 MR. BLENERT: And then finally at 9:42 p.m., 

1 BY MR. BlENERT: 4 there’s a three-minute and 48-second call from your hotel 

s Q Now, this is the day, sir, correct, that you flew 5 room to the general White House office and I will show you a 

s to Florida, is that right? 6 copy of a presidential phone log which we’re calling 4+1-t& 

7 A At 2:30 p.m. on the J.C. Penney plane, tail number 7 which reflects that you and the President did speak at that 

3 N1904P. 8 time. __ 

3 Q Now, and, as you’ll note, at 5:lO p.m. and then 9 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-W-16 

I later at 9:42 p.m., fmt of all, you placed a call, there 10 was marked for identification.) 

I -was a call from your room in St. Petersburg to Nancy 1 I MR. LERNER: If I could interrupt, Mr. Bienert -- 

1 Hemreich’s number, correct? 12 MR. BIENERT: Oh, no. It’s a message. 

3 A That’s COrrCCt. 13 MR. LERNER: What the call log reflects is that 

I Q Although, actually, I will point out to you and I 14 the President placed an outgoing call at 8~55 to the hotel 

j don’t lmow where the mistake here is, it says Nancy Hemreich 15 in St. Petersburg, that at 942 another record reflects thal 

j but the number them is- which is the White House 16 you called the white House and spoke to the President for 

1 operator, not her phone. A five-minute and I7-second call. 17 three minutes and 43 seconds. 

% Do you believe that that call would have been with the 18 hik BIENBRT: Which you’ll note explains the mason 

3 President? 19 why in the left-hand column at call number 4 there it shows 

1 A I don’t know. What I do laiow is that that is the 20 the time of 9:42 which conesponds on the presidential call 

I day that Erskine Bowles told the staff that he was going to 21 log with the right-hand side showing the time you actually 

t say as White House counsel. 22 spoke. 

3 Q And I know you had told us in past testimony that 23 BY MR. BIENERT: 

4 one of the masons you were talking to Mr. Bowk frequently 24 Q Do you see that, sir? 

5 in late 1997 and eariy 1998 was he was debating whether to 25 A hh-hmm. 

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Q Okay. Now, I’m assuming that based on your 

answer to call number 3, is it accurate, sir, that you think 

that one possible topic you would have discussed with the 

President at that time would have been Erskine Bowles’ ? 

A I believe that to be the case. I would also 

volunteer, counsel, that it is not inconceivable to me thz 

somewhere in this three-minute 48 conversation Monici 

Lewinsky was mentioned. 

The nature of it and what it was about, I do not 

know, but that was the President saying to me thanks for my 

efforts with Erskine Bowles. That’s how I remember that 

conversation. 

Q Now, if Monica Lewinslcy was mentioned, and whethe 

it was this call or another conversation with him roughly in 

that several-day timeframe, would the conversation have been 

the one that you described where you informed him about the 

job? 

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A It could have been. I don’t have any specific 

recollection. There were, as I have said before, the 

President is my friend and our conversations are at times 

wide ranging. 

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address, it could be about some appointment or some issue on 

which he sought my advice. 

1 Hernreich at the White House, the number should be 

2 m w&h is Nancy Han&h’s aumk, not tbc_ 

3 UXCA number. 

4 BY MR. LERNER: 

5 Q And that is a number that you would som&nes call 

6 to reach the President? 

7 A Yes. That’s Nancy Hernreich’s direct number. 

8 BY MR. BLENERT: 

9 Q All right, sir. Now we’ll direct our attention to 

0 the portion that says January 14, 1998 and you’ll note there 

1 are five calls that are listed here -- 

2 A Where are we now? 

3 Q I’m sorry, sir. We’re back on Exhibit 15, the part 

4 of the page that deals with January 14th at the bottom. 

5 A Okay. Right. 

6 Q And you’ll note, sir, there are five calIs. 

7 A hkl-hmm. 

8 Q And you might want to consult your calendar, 

9 but the calls start off with you at the Renaissance in 

3 St Petersburg and by the end of the day you’re at the 

1 St Regis in New York and is that consistent with your 

z calendar, reflecting that you flew from Florida in the 

1 morning or at some point that day to New York? 

1 A I left Florida at 1:43 and I arrived in New York 

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Q Now, was there ever a time that you had -- in this 

timeframe, roughly 9th, lOth, 1 lth, 12th, 13th of January 

when you had in some fashion indicated to the President that 

Ms. Lewinslcy did get the job, was there ever any time in that 

timeframe when the President initiated a topic of discussion 

related to Ms. Lewinsky? 

A I have no recoIIection of that. 

Q And based on the conversations you do recall, you 

do recall times when you initiated it, is that fair? 

A Yes. 

Q Was there ever a time in this timeframe when you 

and the President discussed any aspect of Monica Lewinsky 

other than the fact that she had gotten a job? 

A No. 

MR. BIENERT: And just so you can see, for 

completeness, we’ll mark this as 4-w-17. It’s a letter with 

a date of January 13, 1998 to Revlon signed by Monica 

8 Lewinsky indicating that she’s excited about joining the team 

9 at Revlon. And I’ll represent to you that this was produced 

0 to us by Revlon, so there’s at least an acceptance letter as 

1 of that date that she had sent to Revlon. 

2 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-VJ-17 

3 was marked for identification.) 

4 MR. LERNER: Can I just correct the record? The 

5 number 3 call on January 13th which lists the call to Nancy 

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Q Okay. And just for completeness, to see if this 

jogs your memory as to any issues, you’ll note that the early 

morning call at 656, a minute and 47 seconds between 

yourself and the White House, then them was a call to the 

State Department at 2:49. 

By the way, do you know why you would have been 

calling the State Department while you were in Florida arounc 

January 14th? 

Q Yes. I had an early morning call from William 

Gray, who is the president of the United N-0 College Fund. 

He is my successor there once removed. 

And Bill Gray called me that morning in St. 

Pucrsburg about a problem that the United Nqro Colkgc Fund 

was having with the agency AIB. the Agency for Intemational 

Development. 

And, as a nzsult of that call, I called Bruce 

Atwood at the State Department through the State Department 

line -- this is not a direct line, this is a State Departmen 

operator - and asked to be put through to Bruce Atwood to 

discuss with him a pmblan that tbc United Nqpu Collqc Fund 

was having with a grant having to do with South Aff - 

Q And obviously nothing to do with Monica Iewinsk, 

that call. 

A I don’t think so. 

Q NOW, if we go to the next call, there’s a call I 

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I between the President and Ms. Currie and then later, the 1 A Right. 

2 records from the St. Regis, I’ll represent to you, do not 2 Q NOW, the message the& from Betty Currie on that 

3 show a time of calls. There’s a call from your hotel room at 3 date was “Kind of important.” 

4 the St. Regis to the White House and then there is a second 4 A It says “Betty/poTus_ Kind of important 

5 call that same day from the St. Regis, your hotel room, to 5 Q Okay. So to be more accurate, it says 

6 the White House. 6 “Betty/Porus:* 

7 Is there anything about these calls or this date 7 A Right. 

8 that prod your memory at al! any further than what you’ve 8 Q Which is the President. 

9 discussed on the 13th as to what the nature of those calls 9 A The President of the United States. 

o &th t& White House might have been? 10 Q All right. Now, do you know why it is that Betty 

1 A No. 11 or the President were trying to get a hold of you on the 15th 

2 MR. BIENERT: All right. That’s all the questions 12 of January? 

3 on the 13th and 14th 13 A I do not know. 

4 Now, sir, we’re up to January 15th, which was a 14 Q DO you know if it had any-thing lo do with Manic, 

5 Thursday, and I’ll place before you Exhibit 4-VJ-18. which is 15 Lewinsky? 

6. a phone summary sheet showing 10 calls. 16 A I do not know. 

-_ 

7 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4+~-18 17 Q If we go down to the next series of calls, at 2149, 

8 was marked for identification.) 18 then% is a call from your office to Nancy Hemreich’s number, 

9 MR. BIENERT The first call is again from your 19, Do you see that? 

0 hotel room at the St Regis to the White House. It does not 20 A Yes, I do. 

1 indicate a length of call or the exact time. 21 Q And that’s one of the numbers you call lo speak t( 

2 Then at 10:22, I’ll represent to you there is ,22 the President, correct? 

3 a page from Frank Carter to Monica Lewinsky’s pager 23 A Right. It also is a number I call lo speak to 

4 saying “Please call Francis Carter” and it gives his phone 24 Nancy Hemreich. 

5 number. 25 Q Okay. Well, is it accurate, sir, that when you 

Page 74 Page 76 

I At 12:3 1, there is a page from Betty Currie to 1 testified March 3rd or 5th. you indicated that you typically 

2 Monica Lewinsky’s pager with a message that says “Please 2 didn’t have conversations with Ms. Hemreich other than 

3 call K.” 3 pleasantries? 

$ At 1:08, there is another page from Frank Carter’s 4 A It depends. There were a lot of pleasantries, but 

s pager to Monica Lewinsky’s pager saying “Please call Frank 5 it could he about a golf game, it could he about her daughter 

5 Carter.” 6 Ashley who is away at Duke University, it could be about some 

1 And then I will show you -- let me just check on 7 function, something the President wanttd me to do. I mean, 

3 our exhibit number here -- 8 yes, it coyld be about many things. She works for the 

J This will be Exhibit 4-vJ-20, which I’ll represent 9 President. 

1 to you is a document that we received from your law fum, 10 Q All right. Well, let’s go through the next few 

I Akin Gump, in respcm~ to a subpoena that purportedly is a 1 I calls and then I’ll come back to a question on that. 

2 message page with the date of January l&l998 on it showing 12 A Okay. 

f acdUfmm&nyCurricwithhaWhiteHouscnumbaandthcn 13 Q There’s a 3:02 call from your inside line to Nancy 

I .in the message area it says “Kind of important.” 14 Hemreich’s number again for a minute and 30 seconds. 

I (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-VJ-20 I5 A Right. 

5 was marked for identification.) 16 Q Do you see that? 

1 BY MR. BIENERT: 17 A Yes, I do. 

1 Q Now, sir, the message on VJ-20, that was a message 18 Q There’s a 3:04 call for a minute and 54 seconds 

2 to you from Betty Currie, correct? 19 from your number to the White House operator. anotha number 

I A I don’t understand. 20 that you sometimes use to reach the President, correct? 

I Q 4-VJ-ZO? 21 A Yes. 

2 A h’fm-hmm. 22 Q And there’s a 5:16 call for two minutes and 48 

1 Q Is a document obtained by -- your law firm produced 23 seconds which is also to the White House operator, co-t? 

1 in response to a request for records to you involving Monica 24 A That’s correct. 

5 Lewinsky, Betty Currie and others. 25 Q Now, in light of the fact that there is a message 

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1 to you on that same day to call Betty or the President and 

2 it’s “kind of important,” do you believe that you would hare 

3 attempted to speak to Betty or the President? 

4 A Yes. I’m trying here, but I don’t know what the 

5 subject is or what the emergency was. 

6 Q Now, if we continue down the page, at 5:22 p-m., 

7 which is just after the series of four calls from your office 

8 to tbc U’hitc House, there’s anotkr pa8e to Monica Lcwinsky’s 

9 pager saying “Please call K. ASAP" from Betty Ctie. 

1 0 And then, finally, at 6:45, there’s a call, a very 

1 1 shofi call, from your office to Betty Currie’s residence, a 

I 2 12-second call. 

1 3 Do you believe, sir, looking at the course of caIIs 

1 4 that your discussion with Betty or the President that day bad 

I 5 anything to do with Monica Lewinsky? 

1 6 A I honestly do not know. As I look at my calendar 

1 7 for the ISth, I see that I have an ap$ntmcnt with Edd.ic 

1 8 Williams, who is the president of the Joint Center for 

1’ 9 Political Studies and it could have been in anticipation of 

21 0my meeting with Eddie Williams who wanted the President tc 

2 1 speak at his annual meeting and I may, having seen Eddie 

2: 2 Williams’ name here, I may have been trying to negotiate to 

2 3 get the President to speak to the Joint Center for Political 

2, 4 Studies, which he did not do. 

2. 5 Q Would you agree, sir, that based upon the pages 

Page 78 

that are here that if these pages are accurate that there was 

an attempt on January 15th by Betty Currie to get a hold of 

Monica Lewinsky. 

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A From what I see here, that’s correct. 

Q And is it also accurate, sir, that you have been 

contacted by persons, and specifically Frank Carter, on other 

occasions to try to get a hold of Monica Lcwinsky when Frank 

Carter was having trouble getting a hold of her. 

A I have. 

Q Is it possible, sir, that Betty Cunie and/or the 

President on January 15th was trying, among other things, to 

talk to you to see if you could get a hold of Monica 

Latinsky? 

A I don’t have the slightest idea and I don’t know 

why hey would be - why tbe White House would k looking for 

me to find Monica Lewinsky when Betty Currie has a direct 

relationship with Monica Lewinsky, a relationship long before 

I knew Monica Lewinsky existed. So the notion that Betty 

Currie would be finding me to find Monica L.ewinsIcy is 

somewhat absurd to me. 

Q AlI right. Well, let’s analyze that, sir. Betty 

Cunie learned from you that you were goiq to attempt to 

help Monica Lewinsky get a job, correct? 

A Betty Currie called me and asked me to help Monica 

Lewinsky get a job and I agreed to do that. 

PageTM Vernon E. Jordan, Jr., 5/28/98 

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Q Betty Currie later learned from you that Monica 

Lewinsky had signed the affidavit in the Paula Jones wse, 

correct? 

A And I asked her to tell the President. 

Q Is it accurate that she learned that from you? 

That you told her that? 

A I did tell her that. 

Q Is it also accurate, sir, that you told Betty 

Currie that you had gotten Monica Lewinsky a job? 

A That is absolutely correct. 

Q Why did you feel the need to tell her those things? 

A Why not? 

Q Why didn’t you rely on the fact that Betty Currie 

had more of a relationship with Monica t&n you and Betty 

Currie could just contact Monica directly? 

A Because it was not Monica Lewinsky who c&xi and 

asked me for a job, it was Betty Currie, the secretary to the 

President of the United States, my friend, and I acted upon 

it and called her to tell her that I.had done what I was 

askedtodo. Thatsumstometobe,basedonmyraticmal 

mind, to be logical and orderly and the right thing to do. 

Q But is it your testimony, sir, that you think it is 

illogical and not orderly and, to use your word, absurd, that 

Betty Currie or the President would at some point contact you 

about an issue related to Monica Lewinslcy when they couldn’t 

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A Yes. I am not Monica Lewinsky’s keeper and so the 

notion that anybody other than Frank Carter, whom I 

introduced Monica Lewinsky to, asking me to find Monica 

Lewinsky, it’s just -- it is absurd that Betty Currie, who as 

you see from these records, knows how to find Monica 

Lewinsky. Monica Lewinsky knows how to page her. 

So the notion that Betty Currie will call me and 

say. ‘Vernon, wbue is Monica Lewinsky?” is just - you know, 

I’m a belluva guy, but finding Monica Lcwinsky and locating 

Monica Lewinsky is not something that I do. 

Q So in other words, you wouldn’t anticipate findiq 

Monica Lewinsky for the President of the United States, 

correct? 

A Or for anybody else, other than Frank Carter. 

Q Except for Frank Carter. 

A Yes. 

Q Why do you - please explain to us why you 

believe it is appropriate for you to fmd Monica Lewin&y 

for Frank Carter, but not for anyone else on the planet. 

A I took Frank Carter - I introduced Monica 

Lewinsky to Frank Carter. Betty Cunie introduced 

Monica Lewinsky to me. I had never heard of Monica 

Lewinsky before thtn. I 

Q when you intmduad Monica L&n&y to Frank Carter I _ 

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I on Dazmhcr 22, 1997. what further involvement did you expect 1 BY MR. BIENERT: 

2 to have with Monica Lewinsky and Frank Carter? 2 Q Do you sze that, sir? 

> A Beyond getting her the job, I thought it was 3 A ‘r’es. 

4 fmished, done. Finis. 4 Q All riht. First of all, do you know why you would 

5 Q Now, sir, it was on this same day that you got 5 have ti calling Williams & Connolly that noming, on the 

6 a message, we’ll mark it as 4-VJ-21, from Frank Carter 6 16th? 

7 wanting to know if lunch was still on for Monday, correct? 7 A I don’t have the slightest idea. I’m in my car. 

8 A Yes. And I testified here once before that Frank 8 I have friends there. Bill Bennett is a friend of mine. 

9 Carter and I had lunch on Martin Luther King’s birthday on a 9 I’ve told you about my relationship with David Kendall 

o Monday at the Park Hyatt Hotel. 10 I don’t know why I was calling. , 

1 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-VJ-21 II Q AU right. Do you have any reason to believe that 

2 was marked for identification.) i2 it w6uld have been anything of a substantive nature relating 

3 BY MR. BIENERT: 13 to the Paula Jones case, Monica Lewinslq or anything like 

4 Q And that was Monday the 19th 14 that? 

5 A Monday the 19th 15 A ~?XZ answer to that is no. 

6 Q How soon hefore January lSth, which would have heen 16 Q Now, the call at 11:17 to Ms. Currie, frost of all, 

7 that Thursday, do you believe that you and Frank Carter 17 do you know - it’s a minute and 24 seconds - I actually 

B arranged to have lunch? II! want to check something and the reason I’m checking, I think 

9 A I don’t know. 19 that might be your fax nun&r. Does that seem accurate to 

3 Q Do you believe that it was the same day? Within a 20 you, sir? Does -appearto be one of your 

I couple of days or could it have been weeks? 21 secretaries’ phone numbers? 

2 A I do not know. Frank Carter, as I’ve said here 22 A That is Gayle Laughlin’s number. 

3 before, is a very able lawyer. He is a friend of mine. And 23 Q All right. I just wanted to make sure that it 

1 lunch between friends happens in the ordinary in&rcourse 24 wasn’t a fax number by mistake. Okay. Do you know why your 

5 between people. 25 secretary would have been calling Ms. Currie on that 

Page 82 Page 84 

I MR. BIENERT: That’s all the questions I have on 1 particular date? 

2 the 15th. 2 A No. It could have been a visit for somebody to thr 

> . Now we’re going to move on to the phone records for 3 White House. It could have heen -- Gayle has a relationship 

I January 16,1998 and January 17th. 4 with Betty Currie because we get many requests for 

i THE FOREPERSON: Those are exhibits? 5 photographs signed by the President. 

5 MR. BIENERT: I’m sorry, ma’am? 6 So it could have heen Betty saying “I’m sending you 

1 THE FOREPERSON: The exhibit number? 7 a package to have these photographs signed.” I don’t know 

5 MR. BIENERT: Yes, ma’am. 22. 4-VJ-22. 8 what it w+s about_ 

a (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-VJZ2 9 Q All right. And then finally, the 9:41 call at 

1 was marked for identification.) IO night at your residence, you spoke with the President, 

I BY MR. BIENERT: 11 correct? 

! Q All right, sir. Now, if we look at -- there are 12 A Right. . 

1 three calls on January 16th. There is a 9:52 a.m. call from 13 Q Now, how typical was it, how often do you speak to 

I your limousine to the law firm of Williams & Connolly. 14 the President at your home? 

i There is an 11: I7 a-m. call from your office, IS A Whenever he wants to talk, as I’ve said to you 

j although I believe it’s your secretary’s number. 16 before, or whenever I have something to ta& about. I 

1 A Yes. 17 cannot - the President of the United States, William 

1 Q To Betty Cunie at the White House. And there is a 18 Jefferson Clinton, has been a friend of mine since 1973 

) 9:41 call between your residence and the President. And 19 and we have been having telephone calls since 1973 and so 

1 we’ll go ahead and give you what we’ll mark as the next 20 it is not out of the ordinary that I would have a 

exhibit, 4-VJ-23, which is the presidential call log which 21 conversation with the President or the governor. 

! indicates that you and the President spoke at 9:41 p.m. until 22 Q Okay. I’m going to go back to my question. My 

I 9:46, so a five-minute call. 23 question to you, sir, is not one of just how often do you 

I (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-VJt3 24 and the President talk in general, but it’s a little more 

i was marked for identification.) 25 specific, which is how often does the President call you at 

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1 home? Or strike that. 

2 This is a call From you. How often do you call th 

3 President From home in the evening as opposed to during the 

4 day from work, et cetera? 

5 A I cannot tell you how often. I do it as the need 

6 of our friendship dictates. 

7 Q Well, let’s n-y to get some rough estimates. In 

8 the last year -- 

9 A I don’t know the answer to that. 

1 0 Q Do you believe that you spoke to the President from 

1 1 your home more than ten times or less than ten times? 

1 2 A I mean, I have not the slightest idea. If it was 

1 3 during the transition, I talked & him from my home a lot and 

1 4 you can subpoena those records. 

1 5 Q Focusing on the last year. 

1 6 A Since he’s been President, it’s based on what’s 

1 7 going on, it’s based on the needs of our friendship. 

1 8 Q All right. Let’s focus on what’s going on and the 

1 9 needs of your friendship as of January 16, 1998. What was 

2 0 going on? What were the needs of your friendship that would 

2 1 prompt a five-minute call at 9:41 on that night? 

2 2 A Nothing that would be different than in 1975. 

2 3 Q All right. Well, let’s go back to the exhibit from 

2 4 the day before, the meSSage you got from the 15th saying to 

2 5 call Betty or the President, “kind of important.” Did you 

Page 86 

I ever get back to Betty or the President about whatever it was 

2 that was kind of important? 

3 A I am fairly certain that I got back to them about 

4 what was kind of important, but if you ask me what was kind 

5 of important, I cannot tell you. 

6 Q Is it a common occurrence that you would get a 

7 message from the President indicating to call him back and 

8 that the message itself would say important? 

, 9 A I have been taken off the golf course because the 

II D President of the United States wanted to talk to me. 

1 1 Q And my question again, sir, is it a common 

1: 2 occurrence to get a message -- 

1: 3 A It iS a common occurrence -- 

11 4Q Let me finish question. 

1: 5 A -- that when the President of the United States 

I( 5 wants to find me, they do that. I remember Lyndon Johnson 

1’ 7 getting me off of a plane in Atlanta, saying he wanted to 

1’ d talk to me. And so, you know, it’s kind of nice. 

1 9 BY h4R. LERNER: 

2 0 Q What would be the kind of thing that the President 

2 1 would call you off the golf course, that would be so 

2 2 significant that he would call you off the golf course? 

2 3 A The time that I was playing in the Bryant Gumble 

2 4 tournament in Tampa, Florida - 

2 5 i Q How many years ago was that? 

5 1 le 

vPagcW Vcmon E. Jordan, Jr., 5128198 

Page 87 

1 A I’m giving you an example. You asked for an 

2 example -- 

3 Q No, I asked how many years ago was that. 

4 A I’m giving you an example. While he was President, 

5 okay? 

6 Q Okay. 

7 A And I was on the 11 th hole with Joe Garigiola and 

8 somebody else and this very nervous man comeS and says, 

9 “Mr. Jordan, the President of the United States wants to 

IO talk to you now.” And I got on the cart with him and went 

I 1 back to the golf club and I spoke with the President. 

I2 Now, because there was something going on he wanted 

13 to talk to me about and he thought it was sufficient - 

14 k said “get him.” If you’re the President of the United 

I5 states, you sort of get who you want to talk to on the 

I6 telephone. And so that - in my experience, it is not an 

17 unusual OccutXncc. 

18 That happened with Ronald Reagan, it happened with 

I 9 Gerald Ford, it happened with Jiinmy Carter. 

LO Q On this particular ocoasion, what was it that 

!l President Clinton asked you or wanted to talk to you about? 

!2 A Whem I was on the golf course in Florida? 

!3 Q Right. 

!4 A I don’t think that’s relevant to this conversation. 

!5 It had nothing to do with Monica Lewinsky. 

Page 81 

1 Q That’s fine. But you do have a specific 

2 recollection of what it was that he -- 

3 A Yes, right. But I don’t think that’s relevant, 

4 Q So my question, Mr. Jordan, you have an incnzdibly 

5 specific recollection of this other incident in’which the 

6 Presidenttriedtoreachyoubecausehewantedtotalktoyou 

7 about something important, yet you don’t have a recollection 

8 of what was the important matter that President Clinton or 

9 through Betty Currie wanted to talk to you about just a few 

0 months ago. 

1 A And the reason I have the recollection is that 

2 when I’m playing golf and I’m disturbed, I remunber that. 

3 But I don’t remember when I’m at home at 500 in the 

4 afternoon what was important. And I have no mason to be 

5 cagey about that, I just do not remember what it was about. 

6 It could have been about the state of the union, it could 

7 have been about any number of things. I doubt that it was 

8 about Monica Lewinsky. 

9 BY MR. BIENERT: 

!O Q Is it accurate to say, sir, that in your past 

!I experience with the President when the President has 

12 indicated that he needed to speak to you about somet. 

3 important it has been about a substantive type issue as .* 

14 opposed to just, hey, how are you, how’s the family, what’s 

:5 going on? 

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I A Well, he doesn’t call me and say it’s importan? 1 Q He did, though, inform you that he had filed the 

2 when he’s calling about the family, except he called me u-:-?en 2 motion, correct? 

3 I was in Georgetown Hospital from some place in southezt 3 A I’m sure he did. 

4 Asia because he was worried about me. All right? 4 Q And he informed you of that on -- at leas: by your 

5 Q And your health is important. 5 lunch of January 19th, correct? 

6 A And the friendship is important. 6 A That’s right. 

7 Q So while you can’t remember what it was that he 7 MR. BIENERT: All right. That’s all the questions 

8 viewed as important that he wanted to tall< to you about 03 8 I have on the 16th. Now we’ll direct our attention to 

9 thelSth-- 9 January I7th, which is on the same page before you, sir 

0 A 1 do not remember. 10 Actually, you might want to keep this., It’s 4-VJ-22. And we 

1 Q It would have beeo something that would have been 11 have some presidential call logs. 

2 more than just a hey, how are you, what’s going on in yo*z 12 I’m going to hand you what are marked as 4-VJ-21 

3 life, right? 13 4-VJ-25 and 4-~~-26. 

4 A I have to assume that, yes. 14 (Grand Jury Exhibits No. 4-VJ-24, 

5 Q Andthefactthatthismessagehappenstobeonthc 15 4-VJ-25 and 4-VJ-26 were marked 

6 same day that there are multiple messages from Betty currie 16 for identification.) 

7 and Frank Carter attempting to ga a hold of Monica Lewinsky, 17 BY MR. BIBNERT: 

B while you don’t have an independent reeolleetion of what you 18 Q And if you’ll look at those, sir, first of all, 

? discussed with the President or Betty at that time, do those I9 let’s go through the calls. 

1 facts at all impact your belief as to what it might have beeo 20 At 458 p.m. on the 17th, there was a call from 

I about? 21 President Clinton to yourself for two minutes and if you look 

2 A It is inconceivable to me that subsequent to my 22 at the call log we’ve given you, it indicates that you and 

8 getting her a job that that was any urgent matter that the 23 the President did talk at 5:38 -- 

I President of the United States wanted to talk to me about 24 A 5~58. 

i having to do with Monica Lewinsky. 25 Q I’m sorry. Let me see if I’ve got that. I just 

Page 90 Page 92 

I Q All right. Sir, I’ll represent to you that on 1 want to make sure I don’t have them in the wrong order. 

2 January 16th is the day that Frank Carter filed a motion to 2 There should be three, one for each of the calls. Here it 

3 quash in the Paula Jones case, a motion to quash the 3 is. Yes. There it is. Let me just pull these away from you 

4 deposition of Monica Lewinsky. 4 so I don’t confuse myself or the grand jurors. Okay. 

5 A Okay. 5 Going back. Exhibit 24, sir, corresponds to item 

5 Q Were you ever made aware of the fact that such a 6 number 1 on the phone list that the grand jurors have and 

7 motion was going to be filed? 7 it’s 4-VJ-22 and that is it reflects that a call was placed 

3 A No. 8 at 458, b.ut that you and thePresident actually spoke at 

? Q By that I mean prior to the filing of it. 9 5:38. Do you see that, sir? 

1 A No. 10 A I do. 

I Q Did anyone notify you around the time of its I I Q So you spoke to the President at 5:30. Then there 

! filing, and then specifically say then on the day it was 12 is a mobile call, call number 2 is from your mobile phone to 

b filed, that it was being filed? 13 the White House, B Do you see that? 

I A No. 14 A bfm-hmm. 

; Q Are you aware -- did you become aware later that it 15 Q Thenthereisi was filed? 16 A That’s my car phone. 

1 A I’m sure in the course -- I read it in the 17 Q Yes, sir. Okay. Then there is a 7:02 call between 

I newspaper or something. I was aware that it happened. I 18 yourself and the President and if you look at the 

1 mean, how I found out, I don’t know. The notion that I was 19 presidential log we’ve provided you, 4-VJ-25, it indicates 

I intimately involved in Frank Carter’s representation of 20 that you and the President did talk. Do you see that? 

Monica Lewinsky is, again, absurd. 21 A Yes. 

, I am not a criminal lawyer. I don’t know anything 22 Q And then at 7:02, immediately thereafter, there is 

I about the criminal law. It is not what I do, so the notion 23 a presidential call log reflected in number 4 that shows a 

1 that Frank Carter would consult me about how he was going to 24 call betwetn President Clinton and Betty Currie and the call 

i represent Monica L.ewinsky is an insult to Frank Carter. 25 log indicates that they spoke as well. Do you see that? 

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I A Yes. 

2 Q And the call log indicates that they spoke at 7:13, 

3 which would be after the call that you had with the President 

4 that was at 7:02. Do you see that? 

5 A h&khmm. 

6 Q Okay. Now, first of all, January 17, 1998, and I 

7 think we touched on this briefly in the other testimony, that 

8 was the day of the President’s deposition, correct? 

9 A That’s right. 

10 Q And you’re aware of the fact that the president was 

I I deposed on that day, correct? 

12 A Right. 

13 Q And you were aware of the fact prior to the 

14 deposition that he was going to be deposed on that day, 

15 correct? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q And that was a Saturday, righ?? 

Page 95 

I got through it. What he said in his testimony we did not 

~ 2 discuss. 

3 Q Okay. Now, going to the second call, which would 

4 be your call to the White House, a brief call, do you know 

5 why you would have called the White House at that time? 

6 A I don’t. 

7 Q All right. Now, going to the third call, which was 

8 the second conversation that you had with the president on 

9 that day after his deposition, what, if anything, did you 

10 discuss with birn then? 

II A I don’t specifically recollect what we talked about 

12 in that two-minute period. It was for him not a very good 

13 day in that he bad had to go give his testimony and there was 

I4 a lot of drama and trauma associated with that. And my 

IS suspicion is that we wen doing what friends do when friends 

I6 have had a bad day. 

17 Q Did the President ever indicate to you that Monica 

18 A Yes. 18 Lewinsky was one of the topics that came up in his 

19 Q Now, we also, I think, discussed in one of the 19 deposition? I 

20 other visits, that you’re aware from either press accounts 20 A He did not. 

21 or otherwise that on the night of the 17th, the President 21 Q Did the President ever indicate to you that your 

22 purportedly spoke with Ms. Cunie about coming in to meet 22 name had come up in the deposition as it Elated to Monica 

23 with him the next day on a Sunday. Do you ~11 that, sir? 23 Lewinsky? 

24 A I read about that. 24 A He did not. And my suspicion is that the reason 

25 Q And you’ve also been made aware or at Ieast read 25 that he did not is that, number one, he’s a lawyer himself, 

Page 94 Page 90 

1 about the fact that it is reported that on that next day, the 1 I’m a lawyer, and that he had good counsel and I believe that 

2 Sunday, what the President spoke to Ms. Currie about related 2 he understood that that was not something that we could talk 

3 to Monica Lewinsky and his testimony about her. Correct? 3 about. 

4 A I read that. Yes. 4 Q Okay. Well, when you must mentioned a moment ago 

5 Q Now, looking at the call at 4:58 or what turned out 5 you did what friends do, as a friend, as a person close with 

6 to be a 5:30 call, actually, call number 1 between yourself 6 the I’m&lent, would you have wanted to know from him -- let 

7 and the President, what did you discuss? 7 me back up a second. You knew before the deposition that he 

8 A That was also the day that Lucille Branton was 8 was going to be deposed in the Paula Jones case, right? 

9 funeralized in 19th Street Baptist Church. Lucille Branton 9 A Yes, we aI1 knew that. 

10 is the widow of Wiley A. Branton, Sr., who was the lawyer for IO Q And you had no basis to believe that he would be 

11 the Little Rock Nine, a partner of mine in Pine Bluff, I I asked anything about Monica Lewinsky, correct? 

12 Arkansas. 12 A No. 

13 A letter at the funeral was read from the President 13 Q And you certainly had no basis to believe that he 

14 of the United States and I gave the eulogy for Lucille 14 would be asked questions about you. 

15 Branton, as I did for her husband, Wiley Branton, a few years 15 A No. 

16 before. 16 Q And your involvement with Monica Lewin&y, correct? 

17 I am fairly certain that one of the things that we 17 A Ididnot 

18 talked about was Lucille Branton’s funeral and death and his 18 Q This was something that if it happened in a 

19 letter. He was a great admirer of Wiley’s and knew Lucille. I9 deposition would have been unexpected, cert&ly from your 

20 They’re all from Arkansas. And so that was -- that had to 20 standpoint, correct? 

21 have been part of our conversation about Lucille Branton’s 21 

22 death. 

A Given tire legal situation, it was unexpected, 

22 What I was intemsted in was how he felt, not what k saic.. 

23 I think another part of the conversation was that I 23 Q And my question to you, then, I guess, is it -_ 

24 inquired as to how he was feeling in the aftermath of his 24 accurate, sir, that since the time of the deposition, aat 

25 testimony. And, as I remember, his comment was tough day, 25 whether it be through published reports or otherwise, you 

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1 have been made aware that there were questions to the 1 speaking with YOU that night he called and spoke with Ms. 

2 Prcsidcnt about Monica Lewinsky and yourself? 2 Cunie on what has been reported as having to do with hlonic; 

3 A That w& in the public domain. 3 tiwinsky, does that impact at all what you believe &e m_ee 

4 Q Later on, it became in the public domain. 4 of possible topics were that you discussed with the President 

S A Yes. 5 that night? 

6 Q Is that something that you would have expected the 6 A I believe that any person, you, me, the President 

7 President to tell you? 7 of the United States, have a right to call our secretaries 

8 A No, I would not have. 8 when we want to call them. 

9 Q Is that something tit you would have liked the 9 Q My question is a little different. Is it accurate, 

o President to tell you? 10 sir, that you told us a few minutes ago that you can’t 

1 A No. Under the circumstances, no. 11 remember exactly all the topics you discussed that night with 

2 Q Why not? 12 the President, correct? 

3 A I know enough about the law to know what witnesses 13 A No. 

4 can talk about and what they cannot talk about and therefore 14 Q Okay. So my question is -- 

s I would not have expected bim to breach his fiduciary duty to IS A Now, may I say this? 

6 the deposition or to the process to tell me that. 16 Q Mm-hmm. 

7 Q Okay. Well, frrst of a& just on the legal issue, 17 A We couldn’t have talked about much in two 

8 are you aware of any aspect of the law that makes it illegal 18 two-minute conversations. 

3 for the President as the witness to tell anybody he wants 19 Q All right. Is it possible, sir, that you talked 

3 about what happened in that deposition? 20 about one topic or groups of topics in the first conversation 

I A Well, I think that under advice of counsel, I think 21 and you talked about a different topic or group of topics in 

z he had good counseI, he was probably told not to do that. 22 the second? 

3 Q How do you know that? 23 A In the course of four minutes, we could have talked 

1 A I just assume that. And I assume it because we 24 about many things. 

s didn’t talk about it. 2s Q And so my question to you, sir, is since you can’t 

Page 98 Page IOC 

I Q My question, though sir, since you brought up the 1 remember specifically what was discussed in those two 

1. law, are you aware of any legal prohibition -- 2 conversations, does the fact that the President right after 

s A No, I’m not aware of any legal prohibition. 3 talking to you purponcdly spoke with Ms. Curie about Monica 

I Q All right. But it was your view that as a legal 4 Lewinsky make you think that it is possible that he mentioner 

5 matter -- S to you something about Monica Lewinsky or yourself as it 

i A I am aware ,of judgment. 6 relates to getting her a job in that conversation, either of 

? Q All right. So why don’t you elaborate on that. 7 the conversations, on January 17th? 

i Is it your view that as a matter of judgment, you would 8 A On Saturday the 17th in the two conversations tha 

J not have wanted the President to advise you if he had 9 I had with‘the President of the United States, we did not 

) unexpectedly been asked about you and Monica Lewinsky in IO tdk about Monica Lewinsky or his testimony in the 

I his deposition? I 1 deposition. 

F A It’s a matter of judgment that I don’t have to go 12 Q Or the questions asked of him in the deposition? 

I out in the ball id ask Mr. Hundley, my counsel, if I can 13 A That iS COrm% 

I call the President and say to the President what I said to 14 MR. BIENER’T: Okay. That’s all the questions I 

i you and to this grand jury. My judgment tells me that. The 15 have on January 17th. 

i mother wit. Common sense. 16 THE FOREPERSON: We’d better take a little break 

1 Q Okay. Let me go back to my question. Is it your 17 right now. 

I judgment that you would not have wanted the President to 18 MR. BIENERT: Yes, ma’am. And I can say -- let 

b inform you that be had ban unexposai.ly ask& about you and 19 me -- can I ask of Mr. Jordan? 

b Monica Lewinsky .‘in his deposition? 20 THE FOREPERSON: Sure. 

A I would not have expected that he would have done 21 BY MR. BIENERT: 

! that. 22 Q What time do you have to leave to catch your plane? 

I Q Would you have wanted him to? 23 A The plane leaves at 2:30. 

I A No. 24 Q And is it National, Dulles? 

i Q Now, in light of the fact that immediately after 2S A It’s National. 

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1 MR. BIENERT: Okay. You tell us what time you have 

2 to leave and I’m assuming, Madam Foreperson. we u-ill 

3 accommodate that timeframe. 

4 THE FOREPERSON: Absolutely. 

5 MR. BIENERT: So I just Want to know -- 1 think it 

6 makes sense for us to know what our cutoff time is today 

7 before you tell us how you want to proceed. 

8 THE FOREPERSON: Tell us, Mr. Jordan, what time you 

9 absolutely need to leave this -- 

0 THE WITNESS: I would like to leave here at 1:30. 

1 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. 

2 THE WITNESS: I have a 2:30 plane. I would realIy 

3 like to run back by the off& to see if I got any calls from 

4 the President 

5 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. So 1:30 it is. 

6 MR. BIENERT: And I think, unfortunately, 

7 Mr. Jordan, I can say I don’t believe w&I finish by 1:30, 

8 so I think we can alI operate under the assumption that, 

9 Mr. Jordan, you will have to come back at some further date. 

0 THE WITNESS: All right. 

1 MR. BIENERT So with that, we’ll go by whatever 

2 schedule you would Iike. 

3 THE FOREPERSON: Well, why don’t we take a little 

4 break now and then we’ll just proceed after that time until 

5 1:30 so you can go and catch your flight. 

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1 THE WTWJZSS: I just don’t want to interfere with 

2 your lunch. Or mine. 

3 THE FOREPERSON: No. We’ll take a littIe break 

4 now. 

5 THE WlTNESS: All right. 

6 THE FOREPERSON: Since we’re going to conclude 

7 after his testimony - 

8 MR. BIENERTZ Yes, ma’am. How long a break would 

9 you like? 

THE FOREPERSON: Ten minutes. 

MR. BI.ENERI: Okay. 

THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

(Witness excused. Witness recalled.) 

THE FOREPERSON: Welcome back, Mr. Jordan. 

THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Bienert, we have a quorum and 

7 there are no unauthorized people in the room. 

8 Mr. Jordan, you’re still under oath. 

9 THE WITWESS: Madam Forelady, please, may I say to 

3 you and to the prosecutor that I very much appreciate your 

I understanding my circumstance. 

2 Iammorethanhappytocomchereatanytimtand 

3 to stay as long as I can, but I really do appreciate your 

4 accommodating my circumstance today and, Mr. Prosautor, we 

5 will work with you and work out a day, next Tuesday is not a 

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good day, but if you would talk to Mr. Hun&y, we will do 

it. But let’s get finished, if we can, before August Ist 

when I go to Martha’s Vineyard. 

MR. BIENERT: My guess is there will be revolt in 

this room if we are not finished by August lst, probably by 

us as well. But we wiU certainly attempt to accommodate 

your schedule, as we have all along. 

THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q Okay, sir. Now, we wex getting up -- we were now 

about to address January 18th. And, sir, you’ll recall this 

is the day that you, I believe, told us before you had lunch 

with Bruce Lindsey. It was a Sunday and you had the lunch 

with Bruce Lindsey. Do you have your calendar? 

A Sunday the 18th Right. 

MR. BIENERT: Ye-s, sir. 

Now, fmt of all, let’s just talk about the lunch 

and I’ve placed in front of you two documents which are 

4-VJ-28. which is actually a two-page document obtained -- 

documents obtained from the Park Hyatt. The second page is 

the lunch registration list which as an entry at 12:30 that 

says “Mr. Jordan for 2.” It says “Window.” 

And then the next document, the front page, is two 

billing receipts, one which shows the total amount charged on 

Mr. Jordan’s card, credit card, and it has a date -- or 

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should say a time on January 18th of I:54 pm. And then if 

we look at the fmt portion of that page, it has a listing 

of what looks like the food that was ordered or the services 

and it has a date - I’m sorry, a time, I should, say, of 

12:52 p.m. 

Q 

A 

Q 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-~~-28 

was marked for identification.) 

BY h4R. BIENERT: 

Do you see those, sir? 

Mm-hmm. 

Now, looking at these documents, first of all, that 

is your signature that is on that payment slip? 

A That is. 

Q All right. And this would relate to the lunch that 

you had with Mr. Lindsey, correct? 

A Yes, I believe so. 

Q Based on these documents and your independent 

6 memory, what time do you believe you were actually at the 

3 Park Hyatt with Mr. Lindsey? 

3 A I think we got together about 12:30. 

1 Q And then you were there at least until, say, whr’ 

2 was it, 1:54, so roughly 2:00? 

3 A Yes. 

I Q Does that sound about right? 

5 A Yes. About an hour and a half. 

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1 Q Okay. NOW, I remember when we asked j;ou about this 1 relates to item number 2, which is on the sunz~ary that WC 

2 before, I don’t believe you really recalled wlxn the plans 2 have. 

3 were made or how it came up and I guess I just want to 3 A MI-I-I-hmm. 

4 revisit that and ask you if you have any better recollection 4 Q Now, this thing, at least on its face, it reflects 

5 as to how was the lunch arranged, was it a spur of the moment 5 a call from the President to your residence. Is that 

6 thing, et cetera. 6 correct, sir? The _ number? 

7 A It’s not on my calendar and it’s my judgment that I 7 A That’s I-$X hkt~-hmm. 

8 call& him that morning and said, “Bruce, what are you doing 8 Q For approximately two minutes. 

9 for lunch? I’ll buy you lunch” 9 A yes. 

.O Q All right. So you believe the plans would have 10 Q Do you see that? 

. 

I been arrived at on the morning of Sunday the 18th and then I 1 A Yes. 

2 you guys went to lunch from around 12:30 to around 2:O0. Is 12 Q And the call log, Exhibit 30, indicates that the 

3 that accurate? 13 President talked to someone there, correct? 

4 A That’s accurate. 14 A Yes. 

5 MR. BIENERT: AU right. Let’s go ahead and look IS Q Now, obviously, you weren’t at your residence at 

6 ?t 4-VJ-27, which, ladies and gentlemen, is your phone 16 12:SO that day, were you? 

7 &mmary log of January l&1998. It’s two pages and there 17 A The President’s also fiends with my wife. 

8 +re 13 different calls. 18 Q And that was going to be my question. Based on 

9 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-W-27 19 this, what do you assume happened here? 

10 was marked for identification.) 20 A I assume that the President called~ and 

!I BY MR. BIENERT: 2 1 that k had a two-minute tclcphom conversation with whomever 

I2 Q bt’S Start with -- the first Cdl there, there iS 22 answtrrd the phone and my judgment is that it was my wife. 

13 an 11:49 call from your office number to the white House 23 Q Now, do you believe -- and, if you want, you can 

:4 operator for a minute and 12 seconds. Do you see that, sir? 24 glance at the other calls or thinking about the timeframe 

:5 A ~-~XIIXI. 25 and/or just the normal course of proceedings with the 

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1 Q And at least if we look at the timeframe, this 1 President, do you believe that he would have been calling at 

2 would have been the only call at least listed on tbe summary 2 that time for you or could he have been calling specifically 

3 sheet before your lunch with Mr. Lindsey tbat day. Is that 3 for your wife? 

4 right, sir? Timing-wise? 4 A Could be either way. 

5 A That’s right. 5 Q And I guess -- I’m sorry? 

6 Q Do you know whether or not when you called 6 A I don’t know. 

7 Mr. Lindsey to arrange the lunch, would you have called him 7 Q And let’s go down -- in any event, he didn’t talk 

8 at the White House, at his office, or do you think you -- 8 to you at eat time, correct? 

9 A I don’t know Bruce Lindsey’s home telephone number 9 A No. 

0 and my suspicion is that the 11:49 call is to the White House 10 Q All right. Now, then we have at I : 11, there is a 

1 operator to put me through to Bruce Lindsey to confirm lunch. I I call between President Clinton and Betty Currie at her 

2 Q All right. Okay. Now we’ll note -- so do you 12 residence. It obviously didn’t involve you and you were not 

3 remember - did you and Mr. Lindsey either pick one another 13 even in either of those locales, correct? 

4 up or meet elsewhere, or did you both meet at the restaurant? 14 A That’s right. 

5 A We met at the restaurant 15 Q And then we have at 2:15 p.m., there is a call fron 

6 Q When you met with him on the 18th. did he get there 16 your mobile phone to the White Housqthe main operator, am 

7 first or you or do you recall? 17 it lasted four minutes. Do you see that? 

8 A I don’t remember. 18 A 1 do. 

9 MR. BIMERT: All right. Now, I’m going to show 19 Q All right. Now, first of all, let’s go back to the 

o you a document which is a presidential call sheet for January 20 lunch that you had with Mr. Lindsey. This would have been 

1 !8th which is going to be 4-VJ-30. 21 the meeting wben Mr. Lindsey gave you the Drudge Report, 

2 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 4-VJ-30 22 correct? 

3 was marked for identification.) 23 A That’s Correct. 

4 BY MR. BIEZNERT: 24 Q All right. Tell us again, what is your best 

5 Q I’d ask that you look at that, sir, and this 25 recollection of what was discussed about the Drudge Report, 

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Lewinsky and the President? 

-4 That is correct. 

Q All right. Now, so this was, as you say, a new 

revelation, but this, is it fair to say, certainly added 

another dimension and perhaps a more serious dimensia, to 

the whole Monica Lewinsky story? 

A Well, it was clear from the Drudge Repon that it 

had some media entity, in this case, Newsweek Magazine. and 

a reporter named Michael Isikoff had cume to a conclusion 

that something was going on and they were about to write 

about it. 

In rc: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Parcm 

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1 Monica Lewinsky or anything related thereto. 1 

2 A I had never heard of Drudge and Bruce in effect 2 

3 said have you seen this report and he gave me the report and 3 

4 I read it and it was about, as I remember, h4r. I&off from 4 

5 Ncwswack, that Ncwswozk had withheld or delayed some story 5 

6 having to do with Monica Lewinsky and that this was on the 6 

7 Drudge Report and bc explainal to me what the Drudge Report I 

8 was and gave me a copy of it. 8 

9 Q All right. Now, did you look over the report whil e 9 

0 you were sitting there? 1 .O 

1 A I skimmed it. 1 11 

2 Q Any response or reaction from you? I 2 

3 A Just sort of surprise. I never h&d of it. I 3 

4 Another revelation, something new, he does this on the 1 4 

5 Internet, I guess, and I’m not an Internet person and so I -- 1 s 

6 it’s just a new revelation, a new phenomenon that I wasn’t 1 6 T._ 

7 necessarily familiar with. 1 7 

8 Q Now, up until this point, had you ever been 1 8 

9 made aware of even an allegation that there was some sort 1 9 

o of relationship, a sexual relationship or an impermissibl e2 10 

I relationship, between Monica tinsky and tbc President? 2 !I 

2 A If you remember, on the 19th of December I 2 12 

3 confronted both Monica Lewinsky and the President about 2 3 

4 sexual relationships and both told me that there was no 2 '4 

5 sexual relationship. I believe that I testified to that 2 5 

Page 11( 1 

before here. I made a public statement, I believe, in 

January to that effect. 

Q Now, this wasn’t the fmt time, though, that you 

heard about Isikoff and some potential allegations about 

Monica Ltwinsky, c~nect? 

A No, it was not. At some point, Betty Cun-ie, as I 

tcstZcdberebcfore,eal.ledmeandsaidthatsbehadacalI 

from Michael Is&off and she came to my office, I asked her 

to come to my off&, and she did not know what to do about 

rhe call and I said to Betty that I.thought that she had an 

obligation under the White House rules as I understood them 

to talk to Mike hi&my and to Bruce Lindsey and that’s what 

I encouraged her to do. 

Q Is it accurate that you believe that that happened 

around January 15th? In other words, this conversation - 

A Somewhere around the 15th. Right. 

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Q - with Ms. Currie about Is&off. 

A That’s right. 

Q And to be more specific, is it accurate, sir, that 

when you dealt with Ms. Lewinsky on the 19th and asked her 

those questions -- 

A Which 19th? 

Q December. I’m sorry, you’re right. Two 19ths 

here. 

A Okay. 

Q December 19th. It was something that you felt it 11 

was important for yourself to ask before you took further 1 

action. 1. 

A That is correct. 1 

Q But as of that point, no one had ever affirmatively 1, 

said to you or alleged, hey, there’s a relationship, sexual 1. 

relationship, between the President and Ms. Lewinsky. 11 

A No. 1’ 

Q Okay. Now, let’s take the period from the 19th 11 

through your seeing this Drudge Report on the 18th of l! 

January. During that timeframe, did anyone ever allege, 21 

suggest, et cetera to you -- 2. 

A Not to my recollection. 2: 

Q And to finish the question, you’re saying no one tc ) 2: 

your recollection ever suggested or alleged a sexual 2' 

relationship prior to the 18th of January between Monies I2! 

Vernon E. Jordan. Jr.. S/28/98 

Pag: I1 1 

Page 11. 

Q And is it accurate that in that conversation 

Ms. Cunie indicated to you that whatever the story was 

with Isikoff it bad to do with Monica and possible tapes? 

A 1 don’t specifically recollect tapes, but maybe. 

I don’t have any specific recollection of tapes. And I don’t 

know whether - I don’t even rwnemberwhethertl.leDnldge 

Report talked about tapes. Maybe they did, maybe they 

didn’t. I don’t know. 

Q We& that’s leading up to my question. In light 

of what you were told by Ms. Currie on around the 15th, MW 

fast forwarding or going forward to the 18th at your lunch 

withMr.Lindsey,wasthereanythingthatwasuWainedin 

that Drudge Report thet was leaily beyond what Ms. Cunic lmd 

suggested to you this I&off guy was saying? 

A Well, what was clear to me is that the news media 

was onto a story about a rclatioaship bctwrm Monica L&n&y 

and the President of the United States. Period 

Q How did you feel at the lunch with Bruce Lindsey 

when be showed you and told you about the Dmdge Rcpar’ 

What reaction, if any, or what emotion, if any, did you fa 

A No emotion, neckuily. I had some confidence 

thatwhatIwasrtadinginthtDrudgeRtportwasnothuc, 1 

bascdontheconvtrsatioasthatIhadoaDtctmba19thwith 1 

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I Lewinsky and the President. 1 was going on and he shared it with me. 

2 Q And you were confident in your mind that you had 2 Q SO it’s your view that Mr. Lindsey either direct]!. 

3 asked them specific questions and they had given you specific 3 or suggestively was not seeking any advice back from you as 

4 answers. 4 result of that. 

5 A And I believed them. 5 A He was not seeking nor giving any advice, he W;LS 

6 Q So the answer is, yes, you were confident that you 6 sharing the Drudge Report with me. 

7 had asked the questions and had been given answers and you 7 Q Why do you believe he shared it with you? 

8 believed them. 8 A It was the item of the day. 

9 A Yes. 9 Q Well, let’s say this. Do you agree with me, sir, 

0 Q Now, at the conclusion of that lunch with Bruce 10 that presidential advisors don’t just share items of the day 

I &indsey, had you either indicated to Lindsey or he indicated 11 affecting the President with just anyone? 

2 to you that there would be any course of action that would 12 A well, I am not just anyone. 

3 result as a result of this Drudge Report? 13 Q That’s my point. He chose you to tell you this, 

4 A No. 14 correct? 

5 Q Did you discuss the fact that you would taIk about 15 A And that was in the ordinary course of things. 

6 this again later? 16 Q Well, what made it the ordinary course of things? 

7 A There was no need for me to talk about the Drudge 17 A Just like we were discussing, whether or not the 

8 Report later with Bruce Lindsey. 18 Paula Jones case should be settled. He was sharing with me 

9 Q So is the answer no, you didn’t discuss that? 19 the Drudge Report, “Vernon, you ought to know about this.” 

0 A The answer is no. XI And I do not think that was some extraordinary event. 

1 Q Did Mr. Lindsey indicate to you that he was going 21 I do not believe -- I did not view that to be 

2 -to talk to any persons about the Drudge report and the 22 something out of the ordinary. I also do not believe that he 

3 allegations therein? 23 would have shared it with the guy at &e table next door 

4 A He did not, As I testified here before, the one 24 either. 

5 concern I had at the lunch with Bruce Lindsey on that Sunday, 25 Q In light of the fact that the Drudge Report related 

Page 114 Page 11( 

1 the 18th of Jannary, was a reaffirmation of my belief that I to Monica Lcwinsky and tk President and Monica was sommnc 

2 the Paula Jones c8se should have been settled. 2 who YOU had had involvement with in terms of helping her g< 

3 Q Now, at the conclusion of that lunch, did you in 3 a job and helping her get a lawyer, is it information thai 

4 .your own mind have any intent to do anything at all in 4 you would have expected h4r. Lindsey to tell you about’ 

s relation to the Drudge Report or the allegations contained s A Well, yes. Sure. I also believed that he felt 

5 therein? 6 that given what I was doing for Monica Lewinsky or had 

7 A I knew I was having lunch the next day with Frank 7 completed by that time doing for Monica Lcwinsky that I bad a 

3 carter and Bruce gave me a copy of the Drudge Report and tbt 8 right to knqv about the Drudge Report and it was a sharing o 

J next day at the saine place, at lunch, I gave the copy that 9 information, which I view as not out of the ordinary. 

1 Bruce Lindsey gave me of the Drudge Repon to Frank Carter, 10 Q And so you believed that it would have been 

I which I believe I have testified to here before. 11 appropriate and expected for Mr. Lindsey to tell you about 

z Q Okay. Now, going back to the manner in which Bruce 12 this information in the Drudge Report because he knew that 

3 Lindsey told you about tk Drudge Report and gave you a copy. 13 you were involved in dealings with Monica Lewinsky and thz 

I do you have any view as to whether he was telling you that 14 you were implicated in this report. 

5 and giving you the copy based on the fact that you were 15 A I cannot address the appropriateness of it. What I 

j involved in the whole Monica Lewins& matter in terms of 16 can address is that I’ve always had a relationship with Bruce 

I helping with a job, or do you think he was doing it more 17 Lindsey and I have been involved with him going back to the 

i because you arc an advisor to the President and this is the 18 transition and it was obvious that I was involved with Manic 

t type of thing you do, is give advice regardless of whether 19 Lewinsky, that I had helped her get a job, that I had 

) you’re involved or not about presidential issues? 20 assisted her in getting counsel. 

I A It is my judgment that Bruce Lindsey was giving me 21 This was a report that had come out and so for him 

I the Drudge,Report as a matter of information and as a matter 22 to share that report with me just seemed to me to be in the 

i of information only. He said this is what’s going on and 23 ordinary course of things, given our relationship, given whrrt 

I when I talk to Bruce Lindsey, it is a conversation about 24 I had done for Monica Lcwinsky and given my relationship with 

j what’s going on. The Drudge Report at that point was what 25 the President. 

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Q Why, then, sir, do you believe tiz it was not 

natural and normal and expected, given y~z relationship witi 

the President, for the President to tell you *-2: he had been 

asked on December 17th about Monica Le;-,?sky and your 

involvement in getting her a job? 

A He knew that I had given her a job. I-I: knew that I 

had gotten her a job. 

Q He, who? 

A The President. 

Q So did Bruce Lindsey, correct? 

A Ye.% 

Q Let me ask it another way. You have just told us 

that you thought it was entirtly appropri&, expected and 

normal for Bruce Lindsey to inform you of tk Drudge Repor 

because you were implicated indirectly in the Drudge report 

because it was about Monica Lewinslqand the Pnz.sident and 

. 

you had assisted. 

A And the fact is, as I said before uz took a break, 

that when I talked to the President on the 17th following his 

testimony in two minutes of conversation, the fact is that 

the President of the United States did not relate to me what 

went on in his deposition in his lawyer’s office. Why be did 

not do that, I assume it was a judgment on his part. I am 

not disappointed by it, I am not hurt by it, and it is fm 

with me. 

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Q MY-- 

Page 118 

A If you would let me finish. And I do make a 

distinction between a public document, the Drudge Report, 

being given to me and testimony given in a deposition. 

Q Okay. And so it’s largely based on that 

distinction that in your view it was wholly appropriate and 

would have been expected that Bruce Lindsey would tell you 

about the Drudge Report, but at the same time, in your view, 

it was wholly appropriate and not expected that the President 

would tell you that your name came up in a deposition. 

A whether it was appropriate or not, he did not tell 

me. 

Q Now, at the time -- I’ve got to admit, I’m losing 

track of whether we covered this, but at the conclusion of 

your luncheon -- 

A You’re losing track? 

Q Well, I’m trying to keep it straight for both of 

us. At the conclusion of your luncheon with Bruce Lindsey, 

did you in your own mind other than talking to Frank carter 

the next day about it, did you have any inreation to speak 

with anyone about the Drudge Report and allegations mised 

thtX&l? 

A No. 

Q Now, 2: 15, you have a mobile phone call to the 

White House, a four-minute call. Do you see that? 

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A Yes, I do. 

Page 119 

Q And that, sir, was to the-number which is l ’ - 

number that you often called to get the President. 

A And that would be especially true on Sunday. 

Q All right. And that’s because Nancy Hemreich, the 

person who you might otherwise call, might not be there on 

Sunday, conect? 

A That is correct 

Q So the best way for you to get the President is by 

calling _ 

A Right. 

Q And this, looking at the time, do you agree that it 

is likely that this is immediately upon leaving the Park 

Hyatt meeting? 

I’m in my car and I’m -- yes, that’s correct. 

Did you talk to the President in that call? 

I think so. 

What did you talk about? 

I am almost certain that I s&id something to him 

about the Drudge Report and the allegations therein or 

general conversation about it. I don’t recollect any 

specific conversation. I was also on my car phone, so it 

would not have been a serious conversation about it. 

Q Okay. Well, tell us as best you can using - 

realizing you’re not quoting verbatim, but tell us the 

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Page 12u 

of what you think you told the President at 2: 15 on January 

18th about the Drudge Report. 

A That I had it. That I read it. That I got its 

drift. I’m sure I told him I didn’t believe it and I suspect 

that I reiterated my judgment that the Paula Jones ease ought 

to have been settled. 

Q What did the President tell you? 

A Well, I think he probably listened. I don’t 

remember him - I do not remember any specific memorable 

reaction from the President in that phone call of four 

minutes. 

Q Did the President appear to know what the Drudge 

Report was as a general matter? 

A I think as a general matter he knew about the 

Drudge Repon 

Q As a general matter? What do you mean? 

A I think as a general matter, he knew about the 

Drudge Report. And I have to assume, by the way, that if 

Bruce Lindsey knew about the Drudge Repoe that the 

President of the United States knew about the Drudge Report. 

Q And is that at least in part based on your 

assumption that Bruce would probably tell the F’rcsident aL_ 

the Drudge Report before he would tell you. 

A That’s a fair assumption. 

Q So I take it then that your sense in that 

Divcrsificd Rcuorting Scticcs. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

Page 117 - Page 120 
1919 

.Kl i<. UranQ Jq rroCCCt.LUgS Mill 

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Page 12 

conversation at 2: 15 with the President was that the 

Raidcnt already knew not only about what the Drudge Report 

uas in general, but about this specific Drudge Report with ar 

allegation about him and Monica Lewinsky. 

A I have to assume that he knew about the Drudge 

Report period. 

MR. BJENERT: All right. Now, if we look at 

Exhibit 4-VJ-32, which I’ll place in front of yoy sir. 

(Grand J6y Exhibit No. 4-VJ-32 

was marked for identification.) 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q And that’s going to relate to call number 5 on this 

list, that is another presidential phone log and let’s go 

over what it says because I have to admit it’s a little 

undtarandI’mtryingtosetif~psyouonshcdsome 

light on this. 

It reflects that at 2:55 pm., there was a call to 

your residence, Mr. Vernon Jordan residence, 202-342-1834, 

and then at the side it says “Hold per PRESLJS,” P-R-E-S-U-S. 

“9:20 p.m.” Do you see that, sir? 

A h&t-hmm. 

Q Now, fast of all, again, as with the earlier call 

that day -- 

MR. LERNER: If I could just interrupt for a 

moment? 

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Page 121 

MR. BIENERT: Absolutely. 

MR. LERNER: I think we should correct the record, 

then, because the table that Mr. Jordan has reflects that the 

call was from Vernon Jordan’s residence. 

MR. BTENERT: And let me just check and see. 

Let me just pull this back, sir, so we’re not 

confusing anyone. 

MR. LERNER: I think you said -- right. 

MR. BIENJZRT: Okay. I see what you’re saying. 

I think that what Mr. Lemer is accurately saying is the 

table is backwards on that particular call. It should he a 

call - in the call from section, it should say from the 

President, correct? To Mr. Jordan’s residence, as opposed to 

the opposite. Because it’s placed -- 

MR. LERNER: No, no, no. The table was right. I 

think you had indicated before that the call was from the 

President to Mr. Jordan’s residence. In fact, the table is 

correct. 

MR. BIENER~: Okay. I got you. So this would have 

been -- let me make sure I understand, Mr. Lemer. Is it 

accurate, then, that what the record at least reflects is the 

call went from Mr. Jordan’s house to the white House for the 

President? 

MR. LERNER: That’s right. 

MR. BJENERT: All right. So let’s go back to that, 

\cmon E. Jordan, I;., Si2Ub 

1 

1 then. 

2 

3 Q 

4 A 

5 Q 

BY MR. BJENERT: 

So now at 2: 15 you were in your car, correct? 

Mm-hmm. 

And then at 2:55, at least based on this record, 

6 there was a call from your house to the White House for the 

7 President Do you see that document? 

8 A Mm-hmm. I do. 

9 Q All right. Now, do you believe that you drove -- 

o did you drive from the Park Hyatt to your house? 

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3 

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6 

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8 

9 

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2 

3 

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5 

A I don’t know. It wouldn’t take me from 2:15 to 

2:55 to get from the Park Hyatt to Foxhall and Reswoir. 

Q How long would it take you to get from the Park 

Hyatt to your house? 

A Five minutes. 

Q Okay. And is it accurate, though, that, sir, it’s 

possible you could have gone other places fmt? 

A That’s very possible. 

Q Is it also accurate, sir, that you may not have 

called - that if it was you who called, that it may not have 

happened as soon as you walked in the door? 

A That’s possible. 

Q All right. First of all, based on this and 

considering the events of that day, do you believe that 

you did make a call back to the White House for the 

President at 2:55? 

Page 121 

A I have to believe that based on this that a call 

W(LS made from my home number to he White House. Wkthcr 

that call was from me to the white House or from my wife ta 

the White House, 1 do not know. 

My wife calls the White House sometimes as 

frequently as I do, based on her volunteer work there, based 

on her rela$onship with the Fit Lady, based on other staff 

relationships that she has there. 

Q Okay. Now, if we look at the little thing over to 

the right, the little entry, “Hold per PRESUS,” do you 

believe that is a reference to President of the United 

States? 

A The only reference that I know is PONS. I have 

never seen PRESUS. 

Q All right. Well, let me ask you this. If we go 

back to the call at 12:50, which is call number 2 on the 

exhibit? 

A h’fm-hmm. 

Q which appears to have been a call to your house by 

the President at a time when you weren’t home. 

A h’hkhmm. 

Q Do you believe that if you had gone home at around 

‘2:00 or some time shortly thereafter and you had gotten a 

message from your wife or someone else that the President hat 

Page 121 - Page 124 

J 

Diversified Reporting Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 1 - 
1920 

In rc: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-PageTM Vernon E. Jordan, Jr., X28/98 4 

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Page 12: 

called, that you would have called the President back? 

A I would have. 

Q And that would have been from your house. 

A That’s right. 

Q All right. Do you have any recollection of 

speaking to the President at around 255 that day? 

A I do not. 

Q And then I would submit to you that based on thi: 

document, at least on its face, it does not indicate that you 

guys actually spoke. 

Now, if we look at the rest of that document, item 

6,7 and 8 reflect three pages frdm Betty,Cunie to Monica 

Lcwinsky asking her to call K. at home. Do you see those? 

AMxn-hmm. 

Q And then at 7: 19, there is a call from your office 

ta Chayl Mills' number at the White HOUK, followed about an 

hour later by another page from Betty Cunie to 

Ms. Lewinsky’s pager. Do you see that, sir? 

A I do. 

Q All right. Let’s focus on item number 9, the 7: 19 

call from your office to Cheryl Mills at the White House. 

Now, this is on a Sunday night, from your office inside line. 

Do you believe that you would have made that call? 

A If it’s a Sunday night and it’s from _---) I am 

in my office and whether I am calling Cheryl Mills, whether I 

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Page 126 

talked to her for a minute and six seconds, I have no 

recollection. 

Q Why would you have been calling Ms. Mills? 

A I don’t know. 

Q Well, given everything that was happening that day, 

what, if anything, if you spoke to her or if you left a 

message, do you believe that it would have had anything to do 

with the Drudge Report, Monica Lewinsky or anything relateC 

thereto? 

A No. It may have been about my lunch with 

Bruce Lindsey. She works with Bruce Lindsey, she’s close 

to Bruce Lindsey. And one of my concerns at the lunch 

with Bruce Lindsey was his future and what he wanted to do 

and I may have been talking to Cheryl Mills about that. 

Q Okay. So as you sit here now, you think that a 

very good possibility for the topic you would have contacted 

Ms. Mills about would have been Mr. Lindsey and mainly his 

3 job status at the White House, cow? 

> A Not his job status at the White House, but what he 

J wanted to do with his life. 

I Q All right. As you sit here now, though, can you 

2 preclude that one of the purposes of your call had anything 

1 to do with the Drudge Report, Monica Lewinsky or anything 

1 related thereto? 

5 A It is not conceivable that I would have had a 

i 

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Page 127 

conversation with her about hlonica Lewinsky except in 

the context of the Drudge Report and that was likely * 

conversation where Cheryl said_ “Can you believe this DIU\ 

Rcporl? Tell me, what do you know about tbc Drudge Report.” 

Beyond that -- 

MR. BIENERT: All right And then the other calls 

do not involve you, they’re calls from Monica Lewinsky to 

Betty Cunie and then from the President to Betty Currie. 

And I believe that that is all that I have on that particular 

day. 

Now, if I can just alert Madam Foreperson, the next 

day that we have is extensive and we will lx spending a lot 

of time on it. 

THE FOREPERSON: I think we should save it for the 

next visit. 

MR. BIENERT: Okay. So perhaps if it’s okay with 

you and the grand jurors, we could excuse Mr. Jordan for just 

a moment and we can talk amongst ourselves as to whether 

there are any further questions to ask for today. 

THE FOREPERSON: certainly. 

MR. BIENERT Okay. So, Mr. Jordan, we would ask 

you -- 

THE WlTNEss: Do you want me to wait until you call 

me back? 

MR. BIENERf: Yes, sir. 

Page 12) 

1 THE Wll’NESS: Thank you. 

2 (Witness excused. Witness recalled.) 

3 MR. BIENERT: 

4 (The witness was excused.) 

5 (Whereupon, at 1:lO p.m., the taking of testimony 

6 in the presence of a full quorum of the Grand Jury was 

7 concluded.) 

8 ***** 

Divcrsificd Rcvortin~! Scrviccs. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

Page - 125 - Page 128 
1921 

Vernon Jordan 5/28/98 GJT 

Exhibit 4VJ-1 Redacted 

in its entirety 
ACCOUNT NUMBER : 

CARRIER 

Itemized calls, continued 

Directly dialed 

No. Date Place calJed Number called 

1. 

2. 

3. 

4. 

5. 

6. 

7. 

8. 

9. 

10. 

11. 

12. 

ENT 

Calli 

DEC 30 

DEC 30 

DEC 30 

DEC 30 

DEC 30 

DEC 30 

DEC 30 

DEC 30 

DEC 30 

DEC 30 

DEC 30 

DEC 30 

'ER-NEW 

ng number 

1VAN NUYS 

1CANOGAPARK CA 

1VAN NUYS CA 

1WASHINGTON DC 

1WASHINGTON DC 

1WASHINGTON DC 

1WASHINGTON DC 

1WASHINGTON DC 

1WASHINGTON DC 

1WASHINGTON DC 

1WASHINGTON DC 

1WASHINGTON DC 

-_.--_. _ ~ PFOl-EX 

PF07-UP PF08-DWN PF09-UP SECT PFlO 

;f GOVERNMENT 

Time Rate Min. Amount 

BILL DATE : 012598 

PAGE NO : 4 

12:18 PM DAY OJB 1 

12:19 PM DAY OJB 1 

12:20 PM DAY OJB 4 

01:54 PM DAY OJB 7 

04:47 PM DAY OJB 11 

07:39 PM EVE OJB -.1 

07:44 PM EVE OJB 1 

08:08 PM EVE OJB 1 

08:44 PM EVE OJB 28 

09:13 PM EVE OJB 2 

09:15 PM EVE OJB 1 

09:16 PM EVE OJB 5 

.28 

.28 

1.12 

1.96 

3.08 

. 16 

. 16 

16 

4:48 

.32 

.16 

. 80 

-LEFT PF04-RIGHT PFOS-GOTO PFOG-DUPBILL 

-DWN SECT PFll-PREV BILL PF12-NEXT BILL 

2004-DC-OOOOOO83 
Selectam Do-1 Report 

Jarmay 24. 1998 OK - us - 0147 

ARNGLlw 

_____________-______________ _______~____________________~_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_______~ 

mTIm 

81811m: IS 

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ACCOUNT COD 

. ________----- 

$0;;; ;;;;; 

u/30/97 lltS3 

12/30/97 IttO 

12/30/97 12:13 

u/30/91 12 143 

12/30/97 13t19 

12/3U/97 13t20 

12/30/97 13:U 

12130197 14 t01 

12/30/97 14:16 

12noi97 14t20 

12/30/g', l4t24 

U/30/97 14t26 

12/30/97 14130 

U/30/97 l4:32 

l2/30/91 IS105 

12/30/97 16:22 

U/30/97 16x23 

5261 

5261 

5261 

5261 

5261 

5262 

5261 

07999728OC 

0799972800 

4260 

- 4260 

4260 

4260 

4260 

4260 

5261 

4260 

5261 

4260 

4505 

5262 

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1261 

4260 

4260 

4260 

5261 

4260 

4260 

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12/30/97 16:28 

12/30/97 16r34 

12/30/97 16:42 0799972800 

12/30/97 16tS3 

12/30/97 16:54 

12/30/91 11:20 

l.2/30/91 17:to 

U/30/97 17a24 

l2/30/97 17126 

12nof97 17:39 

12/30/97 17~ 41 

12/30/97 17143 426C 

4260 

5262 

4260 

4260 

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4260 

4260 

12/30/97 17t44 

12130197 17144 

12/30197 llt55 

12/30/97 18:OS 

12/30/97 18:09 

12/30/91 18:14 

12/30/97 l8tl4 

12/30/97 18:16 

12/30/W 18:23 

12/31/97 00:59 

191 

194 

0799972800 

5 194 

141 

141 

141 

141 

141 

141 

141 

mt-1 

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4260 

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12/X/91 09100 

12/31/97 09:09 4260 

5261 

141 

141 

141 

141 

12/31/97 09:16 

12/31/97 09:29 

12131/97 09t34 

12/31/97 lo:25 

l2/31/91 lo:26 

S261 

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4260 

141 

5262 

12/31/97 lo:53 

12/31/97 lo:55 

x/31/97 10:55 

:2.'31/97 11:04 

i2/31/97 1l:ll 

12/31/91 11:30 

4260 

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VAS2 17 

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VA92 8 YA m 141 

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12/31/97 11:35 

12/31/97 11:38 

12/31/91 12:lO 5261 

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4260 

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12/31/97 12:15 

12/31/9'1 12:17 

12/31/97 12:19 

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ii/31/97 12:39 

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12/31/97 12:57 

12/31/97 13:OO 

12/31/91 13:41 

12/31/91 13:41 

12/31/97 14:22 

12131/97 14~23 

31:27:06 DZThIL SUBTOTAL 

9:33:48 INCUfIKi cUL.5 

- 

712 

253 

voo4-Dc~154 
No. Time 

I 9:26 AM 

Call lrom ; : ‘, ‘: 

Vernon Jordan’s office,~ 

iL_ 

2 I I :58 AM Vernon Jordan’s office, rl), White ITouse, - 11:30 

- 

3 12:24 PM Vernon Jordan’s office, _ Barbara Neysmith, American Express,- 0:30 

_ 

4 12:33 PM Vernon Jordan’s office,- Barbara Neysmith, American Express,_ 2:oo 

5 5:38 PM Vernon Jordan’s office, m Tom Donilon, O’Melveny & Myer 7:12 

6 5:46 PM .Vernon Jordan’s office, m Nancy f lernreich, White 1 louse, IO:48 

7 6:SO PM Vernon Jordan’s limousine, White I louse, e 4:oo 

. 
1925 

Vernon Jordan 5/28/98 GJT 

Exhibit 4VJ-4 Redacted 

in its entirety 
; GOViRNMENT 

EXHIBIT / 

kqvj- 5 

l/08/98 

No. 

I 9:21 AM Vernon Jordan’s office, _ O:42 

_vc__ 

Rob Weiner, White Ilouse Counsel’s office,- 

2 9:21 AM Vernon Jordan’s office, m 0:48 

- 

White I louse, m 

3 11:50AM Peter Strauss residence,_ Vernon Jordan’s office I :oo 

w 

- 

4 3:09 PM Peter Strauss residence,- I :oo 

=BIB 

Vernon Jordan’s office, w 

5 4:48 PM Peter Strauss residence, & Vernon Jordan’s office, 5:oo 

I :42 

O:54 

2:oo 

6 454 PM Vernon Jordan’s office, _ Ronald Perelman, Revlon, 

7 4:56 PM Vernon Jordan’s office, _ Peter Strauss residence8 6:39 PM Vernon Jordan’s limousine, Rob Weiner, White I louse Counsel’s office, m 

9 9:02 PM Peter Strauss residence, _ Vernon Jordan’s office, I :oo 
I /09/98 

Length of 

!@I 

NO. 

1 

Time 

IO:19 AM Vernon Jordan’s office,- Ronald Perelman, Revlon, _ I:54 

2 1:29 PM Peter Strauss residence,- Vernon Jordan’s offtce, m I :oo 

3 I :29 PM Peter Strauss residence,- Akin Gump- I :oo 

4 4:14 PM Peter Strauss residence,- Vernon Jordan’s office, v 7:oo 

5 4:27 PM Vernon Jordan’s office,- Howard Gittis, Revlon,- 

6 4:37 PM Peter Strauss residence, YI) I :oo 

7 5:04 PM Peter Strauss residence,- Vernon Jordan’s office,- I :oo 

8 5:05 PM Peter Strauss residence,- I:00 

9 5:07 PM President Clinton Betty Currie, White I louse Signal - 2:oo 

IO' 5:09 PM Peter Strauss residence,_ Vernon Jordan’s office, m 2:oo 

11 5:12 PM Betty Cur-tie, White House 

Signal __ 

President Clinton I :oo 

L 
12 5:18 I’M Vernon Jordan’s oflice,~ Peter Strauss residence,- 2:48 

13 5:21 I’M Peter Strauss residence, m Betty Currie’s office,--_ 
1929 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

PRESIDENTIAL CALL LOG 

SIGNAL SWITCHBOARD 

Janus r v 9. 1998 

- 

. ._ 

I 

-- 

OUT AM Ms. Betty W. Currie 

Office, 

xxx 5:07 PH 5:09 White House Signal 

1 ! 

xxx AM Ms. Betty W. Currie Tlkd-ok 

The Oval Office 5:12 PM 

INC 5:12 PtI 5:13 White House Signal _ 

! 

-- _- -- 

REDACTED 
1930 

(“ZR9 January 1998*FdMr. Thomas Schick*A 1 Executive Vice President*.% Corporate 

Affairs & Comrnunications*R 1 American Express Company*PmWorld Financial Center*AbNew. 

York, New York 10285-5 1 OO*,bDear Mr. Schick:* ,HThank you very much for meeting with 

me, before the holidays, to discuss*AJmy career in Communications. I am certain you keep a 

busy schedule, and I*A!appreciated your taking the time.* ,IIt was beneficial for me to have 

spoken with you; your candor afforded me*fiKinsight. It was very kind of vou to offer your 

assistance in putting me in*RFtouch with some agencies. however, I have secured a position in 

public*R(relations at Revlon. I am very excited. ‘*Lo~Again. thank you for meeting with me.** 

Sincerely,*80Monica Lewinskyaw 

TeachTex@APPLttxt! L8AB~n<u~A<u@o.-.a§eTernpor~ Items=-Fa“fcd”‘f+ 

; GOVERNMENT 

MSL-55DC-0101 
I 1 3:02 PM 

1. 

2 1 3:02 PM 

-, 

CalI from ,::” <.::I: ,‘- 

‘,: 

:,. . ‘. : 

Vernon Jordan’s office, m 

Vernon Jordan’s office,- 

1 

Rob Weiner, White House Counsel’s office, n 

White House, -_ I:18 

Length of 

call 

Q:24 

I l2:18 PM Vernon Jordan’s officm 

1 I 1 

Cheryl Mills, White I louse Counsel’s office! 

_______ . . . -- .- 
1932 

BREAIWAST & 

_ 

DATE Sdk \\ DAY &I\, 
l/12/98 

NO. 

I 

2 

3 

8 

9 

10 

Time 

11:18AM 

I I :26 AM 

I I :50 AM 

3:33 PM 

4:09 PM 

4:09 PM 

4:17 PM 

4:35 PM 

5:OO PM 

6:45 PM 

Frank Carter, Attorney 

Peter Strauss residence, _ 

Peter Strauss residence,- 

PVernon Jordan’s office, m 

residence, m 

man’s office, - 

-I 

Vernon Jordan’s office, m 

Fss residence,& 

Peter Strauss residence,- 

: GOVERNMENT 

f 

R 

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Monica Lewinsky’s pager, message reads “PLEASE CALL 

FRANK CARTER ATFrank Carter, _ 

Length of 

Cdl 

5:oo 

Vernon Jordan’s o&e, rl” I :oo 

I :06 

Vernon Jordan’s oftice, 4:oo 

Robert Nash, White I louse Personnel, - I:18 

Peter Strauss residence, 2:oo 

White House- 5:06 

Betty C&e’s office,- 3:oo 

Betty Currie’s office,- 1 :oo 
I1 7:48 I’M Peter Strauss residence,_ Betty Curie’s office,- 1 :oo G 

K 

, 
1935 

CARTER&VARRONE 

Attorneys-at-Law 

Suirc 510. The Coiorado Building 

1341G Stxee~N.W. 

Washington. D.C. 20005 

(202) 393430 

Facsimile (2021 393-5657 

FrancisD.Carter 

Edward G. Van-one- 

'alsoumnrted mhh4iuybd 

Stephanie Y. Bradley' 

of counsei 

January 12, 199" 

David Pyke, Esq. 

Rader, Campbell, Fisher & Pyke 

Stemmons Place, Suite 1080 

2777 Stemmons Freeway 

Dallas, Texas 75207 

Re: Ms. Monica Lewinsky 

Jones v. Clinton & Ferguson 

case No. TmR-C-94,2QQ 

Dear Mr. Pyke: 

This follows OUT 

phone conversation today about,, 

my Client, Ms. Lewinsky. I 

reminded You that she was 

served with a subpoena for a 

deposition now set for Friday, January 23, 1998. I asked you to 

reconsider your decision and cancel her deposition. 

I further said that she has no relevant evidence 

whatsoever in relation to your case. I reminded you that Ms. 

Lewinsky was a intern at the White House during the summer of 1995, 

and subsequently worked in the White House Office of Legislative 

Affairs drafting correspondence. She left her job in the White 

House in April, 1996. The mere fact that she worked in the White 

House, the only relevant information related with your case, is 

insufficient for you to invade her privacy and subject her to the 

burden and embarrassment of a deposition. Ms. Lewinsky is 24 years 

old with the vast majority of her employment career ahead of her. 

Merely being associated with this case, in any fashion, will leave 

an indelible mark upon her. In order to verify these points, I have 

enclosed an Affidavit executed by my Client. 
1936 

Letter to David Pyke, Esq. 

Rader, Campbell, Fisher 8 Pyke 

January 12, 1998 

Page Two 

Again, plezse review your decision to depose her. In view 

of the information in Ms. Lewinsky's Affidavit, there is no valid 

reason to subject her to the deposition process. I would recuest 

the courtesy of a resly to this request rather expeditiously: 

If necessa-ry, I wi.11 seek judicial intervention for my 

efforts to remove my Client from the deposition process. Therefore, 

if I do not hear from you by Thursday, january 15, 1998, I will 

assume that you will 

behalf of my Client. 

not relent and I will proceed with efforts on 

I hope you reconsider but, in any event, let me hear from 

you. 

Enclosure 

849-DC-ooooo289 
1. My name is Jane 

currently reside at 

I 

2. On December 19, 1997, I 

I was served with a subpoena' 

from the plaintif f to give a deposition and to produce documents in' 

the lawsuit filed by Paula Corbin Jones against President William 

Jefferson Clinton and Danny Ferguson. 

I 

3. I can not fathom any reason that the plaintiff would; 

seek information from me for her case. I 

4. I have 

information regarding 

Excelsior Hotel on May 

any of the allegations 

I 

never met Ms. Jones, nor do I have any' 

the events she alleges occurred at the' 

8, 1991 or any other information concerning: 

in her case. i 

I 

5. I worked at the White House in the summer of 1995 as: 

a White House intern. Beginning in December, 1995, I worked in the, 

Office of Legislative Affairs as a staff assistant for: 

correspondence. In April, 1996, I accepted a job as assistant to! 

the Assistant Secretary for Public Affairs at the U.S. Department 

of Defe,rise, I maintained that job until December 26, 1997. I am 

currently unemployed but see.king a new job. 

6. In the course of my employment at the White House I. 

met President Clinton several times. I also saw the President at af 

number of social functions held at the White House. When I worked! 

as an intern, he appeared at occasional functions attended by me; 

and several other interns. The correspondence I drafted while I: 

worked at the Office of Legislative Affairs was seen and edited by! 

supervisors who either had the 

mechanism or, I believe, had the 

itself. 

7. I have the utmost respect for the President who hasi 

always behaved appropriately in my presence. 

President's signature affixed by/ 

President sign the correspondence: 

8. 

President, 

I have never had a sexual relationship with the! 

he did not propose that we have a sexual relationship, 

he did not offer me emplomt or othe- I 

- benefits in exchange for a: 

sexual relationship, he did not deny me employment or other: 

benefits for rejecting a sexual relationship. .I do not know of any 

I 
1938 

other person who had a sexual relationship with the President, was' 

offered employment or other benefits in exchange for a se-wall 

relationship, or was denied employment cr other benefits for' 

rejeczing a sexual relationship. The occasions that I saw the! 

President after I left my employment at the White Rouse in April,! 

1996, were official receptions, formal functions cr events related 

to the iJ.S. Department of Defense, where I was wcrking at the time.' 

There were other people present on those occasions. I 

. 

1 

9. Since I do not possess any informaticn that could 

possibl y be relevant to the allegations made by Paula Jones or lead 

to ahissible evidence in this case, I asked my attorney to provide 

this affidavit to plaintiff's counsel. Requiring my deposition in' 

this matter would cause disruption to my life, especially since I' 

am locking for employment, unwarranted attorney's fees and costs,' 

and ccnstitute an-invasion of my right to privacy. 

I declare under the penalty of perjury that the foregoing 

is true and correct. 

l 

l 

l 

MONICA S. LEWINS-KY 

" I 

i 

* 

l 

l 

849-Dc-Qoooo291 

-2- 
1939 

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, ss: 

MONICA S. ISWINS=, being first duly sworn on oath 

according to law, deposes and Says that she has read the foregzing 

I 

AFFIDAVIT OF JANE DOE # by her subscribed, that the matzersj 

stated herein are true to the best of her information, knowiedge' 

and belief. 

. 

. 

y72w.eLA~ 

/ 

I 

MONICA S. LEWINSKY 

w 

i 

5 SUBSCRIBED 

4n3a/c, , 1998 

74L I 

SWORN to before me this day of' 

. 

PUBLk, D.C. 

My Comnission expires: 

849-Dc-oaloo292 

-3- 

I 
. 

. 

Length of 

call 

II:11 AM Betty Currie Monica Lewinsky’s pager, message reads “WILL KNOW 

SOMETHING THIS AFTERNOON. KAY.” 

2 2:20 PM Betty Currie Monica Lewinsky’s pager, message reads “PLEAS13 CALL ME. 

KAY” 

3 5:lO PM Vernon Jordan at Renaissance 

Vinoy, St. Petersburg, FL 

Nancy Hernreich, White House, _ 5:17 

4 9:42 PM Vernon Jordan at Renaissance 

Vinoy, St. Petersburg, FL 

White House, _ 3:48 

l/14/98 

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I ’ 6:56 AM 

I 

Vernon Jordan at Renaissance 

Vinoy, S!. Petersburg, FL 

White House,- I :47 

Vernon Jordan at Renaissance 

Vinoy, St. Petersburg, FL 

State Department,- 

- 

2:49 

President Clinton Betty Currie, 2:oo 

Vernon Jordan at St. Regis 

Hotel, New York, NY 

White 1 louse, __ no record 

of call 

length 

4 time 

unknown 

I 
5 time Vernon Jordan at St. Regis White House.’ no record 

unknown Hotel, New York, NY of call E 

length 

CL 
1942 

- 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

PRESIDENTIAL CALL LOG 

JANUARY 13th 

NAME ACTION 

.-_ - 

._ I-T -“..^‘(F’ ..- r_-u . . 

. . . . , I 

OUT s?Y MR. VERNON E. JORDAN, JR. TLKD-OK ?:42 P.M. 

ST. PETERSBURG. FL. 

,;6Z 8:55 .p,v, 9:46 i 

- - 

1178~DC-oooooo17 
13 Jammy 1998 IAN 1. 41997 

Ms. Jenna Sheldon 

Manager, Corporate Staffing 

REVLON 

625 Madison Avenue 

New York, New York 10022 

& #2x: 212.527.4995 

Dear Jenna: 

I am so excited about joining the team at Revlon I think it’s going to be 

great! 

The following are two references from my employment at both the Pentagon 

and the White House. Please feel free to contact them. Mr. Bacon is currently 

traveling with Secretary Cohen in Asia and will return to the States on the 

22nd of January. I would prefer you speak with him vice his deputy. 

The Honorable Ken Bacon 

Assistant Secretary of Defense 

for Public Affairs 

- Please contact Colonel Ed 

Mr. Bacon. 

to speak with ’ 

The Honorable John Hi&y 

Assistant to the President for Legislative Affairs 

Please let me know if you need any more information. 

Sincerely, 

TOT% P.Bl 
l/l S/98 

- 

- 

- 

- 

tlotel, New York, NY 

2 lo:22 AM Frank Carter Monica Lewinsky’s pager, message reads:“PLEASE CALL 

FRANCIS CARTER @e 

3 12:31 PM Betty Currie Monica Lewinsky’s pager, message reads: “PLEASE CALL 

KAY.” 

4 I:08 PM Frank Carter Monica Lewinsky’s pager, message reads:“PLEASE CALL 

FRANK CARTER AT5 2149 PM an’s office, m Nancy Hemreich, White House, - 

6 3:02 PM Vernon Jordan’s offtce, 

- 

Nancy Hernreich, White House, -- 

7 3:04 PM Vernon Jordan’s office, m White House,- 

8 5:16 PM Vernon Jordan’s office, _^_ White House, m ’ 

9 

I 

5~22 PM Betty Currie 

I 

Monica Lewinsky’s pager, message.reads:“PLEASE CALL KAY 

ASAP.” 

IO 6:45 PM &@rdan’s office, m Betty Currie residence, 0 

I I- I 

I :48 

I:30 

154 

2:48 
. 

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1948 

Z GOVERNMENT 

Z EXHIBIT 

Y v3-L$ 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

PRESIDENTIAL CALL LOG 

JANUARY 16th 

NAME ACTION 

. . 

. . 

t - . . 

..- _ 

x3F xii MR. VERNON E. JORDAN, JR. 

RFiS: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

1NC 9:41 PM 9:46 - 

c’--’ __.I I 

TLKD-OK 9:41 P.M. 

REBACTE 
I 

1949 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

I 

PRESIDENTIAL CALL LOG 

NAME 

JANUARY 17th .I698 

ACTl0.U 

HR. VERNON E. JORDAN, JR. TLKbOK 5:38 p-n1178-DC4WIOO19 
1950 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

PRESI’DENTIAL CALL.LOG 

rm 17th .I9 J_& 

t. - 

TIME , 

.. 

. 

PLACtp 

- NAHti . 

OISC ‘.- -_’ -_._ . Acrrou-i 

OUT- xxxl 

- 

MR: ViRNON’E. JORDAN,‘JR. 

x&xc ?:02 PM 

REZS: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

'Ttti:O;c k02'P.M. 

es*_. --- 
1951 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

, 

PRESIDENTIAL CALL LOG 

NAME 

TAWRY .l?th .lS 911 

ACTION 

Y. 

, 

!. . 

L 

our xx4l -- 

- - 

MRS. BETTY W. CURRIE 

RES: ARLINGTON. VA. 

TLKD-OK 7:13 P.M. 

UC 7:02 p~7:14 D 

REDACTED 
I I :49 AM 

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Vernon Jordan’s officeI250 PM President Clinton 

3 I:11 PM President Clinton 

4 

5 

2:15 PM Vernon Jordan’s mobile phone2:55 PM Vernon Jordan’s residence,_ 

6 5:12 PM Betty Currie 

7 6122 PM Betty Currie 

8 7:06 PM Betty Currie 

9 

10 

II 

12 

7:19 PM Vernon Jordan’s office8~28 P.M. Betty Currie 

lo:09 PM 

IO:15 PM 

Monica Lewinsky’s residence,- 

Monica Lewinsky’s residence,- 

White House, - 

Vernon Jordan’s residence,- 

- 

Betty Cut-tie’s residence, m 

- 

White House, w 

President Clinton “hold per 

PRESUS, 9:20 PM” 

Monica Lewinsky’s pager “Please 

call Kay at home.” 

Monica Lewinsky’s pager “Please 

call Kay at home.” 

Monica Lewinsky’s pager “Please 

call Kay at home.” 

Cheryl Mills, White House 

Counsel’s OfficeMonica Lewinsky’s pager “Call 

Kay” 

Betty Currie’s office, - 

Betty Currie’s residence, m 

3:oo 

4:oo 

I :06 

0:23 

0:16 

1954 

GOVERNMENT 

942~DC-ooooo316 

H‘-‘ , 

PMK HYlrr - YcluHGTwJ, D.C 

CHECK: 1252 

TAELE: 4/l 

SEfNS: 104 UIcmR 

DATE: JMt18’96 1:Wll 

cMDrm: lvmIcAN~RH5 - 

fYxT#: _ 

EXP DblE: 07/99 

MJTH CODE: m404 

KJalwN 
1955 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

PRESIDENTIAL CALL LOG 

TIME A&ON 

-.._ . 

our X%V 

MR. XRNON E. JORDAN, JR. TLKD-OK 12:50 P-H. 

117~Dc-oooooo21 
1956 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

PRESI tiENT[A& CALL LOG 

. 

JANW 18th *I.9& 

_. I 

TIME _- c 

PLACED OlSC t UAfm ACflON 

E? ‘xx!l 

._ 

NR. ‘JEFfNON E. JORDAN, Ji. 

_... 

HOLD PER PRESUS 

RES: WASHINGTON, D.C. 9:20 P.M. 

INC 2:55 PM 

OlJT .Y 
1957 

In Re: Grand Jury Proceedings Mu&Page ix: Tuesday, June 9, 199t 

Pl9C 2 Page1 

CO"TE"TS PROCEEDINGS 

1 Whereupo& 

w1nrF.sB : P*g= 2 VERNON E. JORDAN, JR. 

3 wascalledasawitnessand,afterhavingbeendulyswomby 

vcrnon E. Jordan, Jr. , 4 the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and testified 

5 as foIIows: 

CMliD JURY ExHIBlxs: 6 EX4MINATION 

wo. 5-“J-1 PIT&z i-ly.r.c r*1.rv.tiion 109 I BY MR. BIENERT: 

l/19/98 5 8 Q Good morning, Mr. Jordan. We’= going to pick up 

NO. 5-"J-2 Park Iiy.tt rccciptr l,l9,99 5 9 where we left off. As you will recall, we finished up with 

110. s-VJ-3 s-q t.lcphcmc list l/19/98 9 10 January18thwhenyouwereherelastaadhadtoleavefor 

ND. 5-xl-, Presidential ctil 109 l/19/98 10 11 your flight and so we’re going to pick up today with January 

NO. 5-“J-5 Presidential Crll 109 l/19/98 10 12 19th. Before I do that, let me just make sure that you 

HO. s-“J-6 

YO. s-“J-7 

WC.. 5-“J-B 

34 

54 

13 remember the various admonitions. 

14 Do you remember the discussions we’ve bad in your 

I5 earlier testimony or earlier appearances about your FifUn 

l/19/98 ., - 65 16 Amendment right not to incriminate yourself! 

NO. 5-".I-9 Park HY.Cr_ rcccipo l/19/96 65 17 A Ido. 

Ho. 5-“J-10 S-ry rehphone li,r_ 1120198 67 18 Q Do you have any questions about that right? 

wo. S-“J-11 Phcne r.e‘.rd~ tr‘” &kin Cunp 19 A I donot. 

l/20/90 ; \ : J 68 20 Q ~YOU remember the earlier discussions we had 

NO. s-w-12 Phone racords fmo. Akin C&p 21 about your Sixth Amendment right to counsel? 

l/20/98 69 22 A Ido. 

no. 5-VJ-13 Phone records fma St. Reqie 23 Q Do you have any questions about that? 

“or.1 l/20/98 72 24 A I do not. 

“0. 5-“J-17 sunnary r&epnoac art li21A .82 

Page 1 -Page4 

Diversified Rmrting Servka. IIIC. (202) 296-2929 
1958 

n Re: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Pagem Tuesday, June 9,199s 

I 

Page 5 Page 7 

1 Q Are you appearing here today with your counsel, 1 Q All right. And we’re just trying to figure out as 

2 Mr. Hundley outside? 2 besr we can what time that lunch would have ti place and I 

3 A Mr. HundIey is outside, my counsel. 3 give you Exhibits 5-VJ-1 and 2 to see if they, along wil 

4 Q And you understand that you can stop and take a 4 your personal calendar and memory, help assist you in setting 

5 break to talk to him at any point, correct? 5 the time when you would have met 

6 A I do understand. 6 You’ll note that 5-VJ-1 is a reservation list from 

7 Q And do you understand the admonitions that we 7 the hotel that has an entry next to it saying 12:30 Jordax 

8 discussed about perjury? 8 and then two. Do you see that, sir? 

9 A Yes. 9 A I do. 

0 Q You understand that if you were to knowingly commit 1 0 Q Under the column that says number of guests is 

1 pe@ry, that that is a criminal act or a crime? 1 1 where the two is. And then 5-VJ-2 are receipts from tha 

2 A I do understand that. 1 2 same day. 

3 Q All right. Do you have any questions about any oj fl 3 The left-hand column of that page shows what 

4 the admonitions or preliminary matters before we get into the 1 4 appearstobealistingoffoodthatmighthavebeenordaed 

5 substance of your testimony? 1 5 and it has the tim of January 19, ‘98,12:38 p.m. 

6 A I have no questions. 1 6 And then the right-hand column has a receipt 

7 MR. BIENERT: m right. sir, let’s dkCt your 1 7 showing a signatuz and the name Vemcm Jordan in payment 

8 attention to January 19th of this year, 1998. 1 8 with an American Express and it shows a time of January 19, 

9 I’ve placed in front of you two documents which 1 9 1998 at two p.m. Do you see that, sir? 

:O we’ll call 5-VJ-1 and 5-VJ-2. 2 0 A I do. 

:1 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 5-VJ-1 and 2 1 Q Is the signature that’s on 5-VJ-2 yours? 

:2 No. 5-VJ-2 were marked for 2 2 A That is my signature, that is my American Expres 

:3 identification.) 2 3 card number. Or at least one of them. 

4 BY MR. BIENERT: 2 4 Q Okay. Now, based on these documents and your 

5 Q 1’11 submit to you, sir, that these are documents 2 5 independent memory, what time do you Mieve that you were at 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

0 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

0 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

Page 6 

that we obtained via a subpoena to the Park Hyatt Hotel. And 

what I want to ask you about is, fuxt of aU, do you rezall 

that Jan- 1% or Martin Luther King Day, was the day 

that you and Frank Carter met for lunch? 

A That is correct. 

MR. BIENERT: Oh, and by the way, before we get 

started, do we have a copy of Mr. Jordan’s calendar and of a 

blank calendar for his use as a reference? 

I assume you would appreciate having that? 

THE wn~~ss: I would. 

MR BIENERT: Okay. So placing before you what has 

previously been marked as VEJ-I, which is just a blank 

calendar -- 

And what about Mr. Jordan’s personal calendar or 

diary or schedule, whatever we’re going to caII it? 

And placing before you vu-2, and I’ll go ahead and 

flipituptoJaotlary19th,sincethat’stheweekthatweare 

discussing and, obviously, you may use it as you believe 

appropriate. 

There you go, sir. 

-l-HE? ms: Thank you. 

BY h4R. BIBNERT: 

Q Now, you’ll recall, sir, that January 19th was the 

day that you had lunch with Frank Carter. Correct? 

A That iS Correct. 

Page $ 

1 1 the Park Hyatt with Frank Carter? 

2 A About 12:30. 

3 Q Did you guys meet there or did you guys drive 

4 together or what? 

5 A We met there. He got there before I did. 

6 Q And do you recaII whether you guys were seated 

7 immediately and then ordered or did you wait a while before 

8 you were seated or did you sit and then talk a while before 

9 you ordered? 

11 0A We were seated immediately. When we ordered, 1 

1 1 don’t know. What we ordexed is listed. 

1. 2 Q Okay. AII right. Soinlooking at thetimeof 

1 3 two p.m. on the portion that has your signature, does that 

1, 4 sound about right to you, that you and Mr. Carter would have 

1. 5 been there until approximately two p.m.? 

11 6A I think that’s colmct. 

1’ 7 Q Do you believe that you would have left shortly 

: 1: B after paying the bill that’s reflected in tbz right-hand side 

l! 9 of 5-VJ-27 

21 D A Within a reasonable time. 

2 1 Q Okay. So you were with Mr. Carter at the Park 

2 2 Hyart roughly betxwxn 12:30 and 2:OO on January 19th. Is 

2: 3 that fair? 

2, 4 A That’SCOmCt. 

2: 5 h4R. BIENERT: AII right. Now, let’s direct your 

Page 5 - Page 8 

Diversified Rmortinn Services. Inc. (2021296-2929 
Tuesdav_ June 9. 199% a.. ..l_ V-Y- H-J a _ .M---b.z 

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: ariention to 5-W-3. which is going to be another summary of 1 Q Now, do you believe that you spoke to Presi&mt 

: phone &ls. This one is four pages long and there are 42 2 Clinton at approximately 855 a.m. on January 19, 199s: 

3 calls listed. 3 A I think that’s entirely possible. 

4 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 5-vJ-3 4 Q Okay. U’hat did you and Resident Cliiton dixzs 

i was marked for identification.) 5 in that call? 

6 BY MR. BIENEFU? 6 A I don’t know. 

7 Q Artd,aswiththeothersimilarsummariesthat 7 Q Well, did President Clinton at any time during th: 

s we% given you, I will represent to yoy sir, that this is 8 call indicate that he had spoken to Betty Currie that 

g a compilation or a summary prepared by the Office of 9 morning? 

0 Indepm~tcolmselhLsedupouphouerecordsthatwere 10 A I don’t recollect that and I don’t have any reason 

1 &tained via subpoena from your law fum and from other 11 to know why the President of the U&d States would relate 5 

2 sources such as tckph companies. Do you undastand that? 12 call to me based on a conversation with his secn%q. 

3 A Yes, Sir. 13 Q Okay. Well, as of this time, as of 8:55 am., sir, 

4 Q Allright. Now,therearescveralcallsonhere 14 youknewthattherewasarepo~speeifieaUy,tbeDn&e 

5 tbatIwauttoa&youabout. Let’sgotbroughthereeords IS Repor&tbatwaaallegingsomesortofarelationshipbchveen 

6kI-e. 16 Monica Lewinsky and the President of the United States 

7 Firstofall,ifyouwillnote,~s1throughI~, 17 Correct? 

8 ifyouwanttoskimthanova,alloccurbetween7:02am. 18 A Yes. 

9 and851a.m. Noueofthemate&direetlytoyou,but 19 Q And you knew that Betty Currie and the President 

0 they consist of one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, 20 were two people who you had personally spoken with prior tc 

I ei@pagesfromBeayCurrietoMonicaLxinsky’spager 21 this date about your efforts on behalf of Monica lzwin&y, 

2 number. Do you see those, sir? 22 correct? 

3 A I do. 23 A That iS Correct 

4 MR. BIENERT: And there is also a call at 8:43 am. 24 Q We~,inlightofthat,canyouthinkofa.nyreason 

5 from Betty Currie’s residence to President Clinton. 25 why the President of the United States at 855 a.m. might 

Page 10 Page 12 

1 And I will show you 5-VJ-5, which is a presidential 1 have been speaking to you about something he. had also been 

2 Gall log. 2 speak@toBettyCurrieabou~namelyMoni~Lewi&y? 

3 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 5-VJS 3 A Icannotmakeanassumptionofwhathewastahdng 

4 was marked for identification.) 4 to Ms. Cunie about because I don’t know what he was talking 

-’ BY MR. BENERr 5 to Ms. Cunie about. It is entirely possible, as I have 

6 Q And I will note that it has two separate phone 6 testified here before, that in any conversation that I may 

; calls from Ms. Currie to the President, both of which say 7 havehadwiththePraidentatanytimeduringtheperiod 

8 ‘Talked. Okay.” One at 8:43 a.m. and one at 8:50 a.m. 8 under question, that we could have talked about the Mmica 

9 Doyouseethat? 9 Lewinskyease. 

0 A I do. 10 I have no specific recollection of what we talked 

1 Q And then immediately or within four miuutes of the 11 about I do not rule it out. But there are, as I have said 

2 8:51 a.m. call between Betty Currie and President Clinton, 12 here many times, other items that we surely could have 

3 there is an 8% am. call between President and Vernon 13 discussed. Exactly what this call was about on the meming 

4 Jordan’s residence. Do you see that, sir? 14 of the 19th, I do not have any specific nxollection of what 

5 A I do. 15 this telephone call is about. 

6 MR. BIENERF That would be call number 11. 16 Q Well, you do recall the specific say, namely that 

7 And I wiU hand you what’s marked as 5~4, which 17 it was Martin Luther King Day of this year, right? 

8 is another presidenti~ call log. 18 A Ido. AuditwasaholidayandIwasnotworking 

9 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 5-VJ4 19 that day. The President was. 

0 was marked for identification.) 20 Q And I’m assuming that you do have some specific 

1 BY MR. BENERTz 21 recollectionofsomeoftheeventsthatoccurredthatday 

2 Q And I will note for you, sir, that it indicates 22 CQrreet? 

3 “Talked” at 8:56 am. to 9:05 a.m. between yourself and the 23 A Subsequent &rem. Yes. This is at 8:55 in the 

4 President Do you see that? 24 morning. It’s the begin&g of the day. 

5 A Ivim-hmm. 25 Q Correct Andso-justsoweeanunderstandwha 

rage Y - rage IL 

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1 I’m trying to do and then that way you can explain it as 

2 accurately as you can, obviously what we’re trying to do is 

3 see what discussions you had with people who are reflected, 

4 what it was of substance that you discussed and I will give 

5 you just the admonition that if you are unable to remember 

6 what you discussed in a specific call, since there were s 

7 many calls that day, to the degree that you have a 

8 recollection of specific items discussed, even though yo 

9 don’t know which conversation they occurred in, I would ask 

I 0 that you would provide them to the grand jury in response to 

1 1 these questions. Do you understand? 

1 2 A I will be happy to do that. 

1 3 Q All right. So going back to that day, how many 

1 4 times do you think that you spoke to President Clinton? 

1 5 A I don’t know, but we have a listing. 

1 6 Q It was multiple times, correct? 

1’ 7 A Yes. 

1 8 Q And you remember speaking to him. 

1’ 9 A And I actually saw him that day, as I have 

21 0 testified here before. 

2 1 Q And as you sit here today, you recall that you 

2 2 spoke to President Clinton multiple tunes on January 19th. 

2 3 A That is correct. 

2’ 4 Q What did you talk to the President about on January 

2. 5 19th? 

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Q Well, let me ask you. We can do it either of two 

ways. Either we can point to a specific - 

A What I’m saying to you, counsellor, is that the 

855 call, I do not have a specific recollection of what the 

discussion was about. I would say to you, as I have saic 

before, that it could have been about any number of things. 

I do not have a specific recollection of the 

President saying to me that be had talked to Betty Cunie ten 

times in the 855 call on January 19,1998. I just have no 

specific rccokction of his having said that. Did he in 

fact say it? I do not know. 

Q Are you finished? 

A I’m finished. 

Q My question is mom general than that. Setting 

aside whether he said to you anything about Betty Currie, my 

question is what did you speak about with the President for 

ten minutes at 8:55 in the morning on January 19th. 

A And I’m telling you again that I have no specific 

recollection of that conversation at 8:55 on Saturday 

morning. I don’t know - 

Q Monday morning. 

A Monday morning, the Martin Luther King holiday. I 

just don’t have any idea of what it was about and it could 

have been, as I have said here before, about any number of 

ti3 ,PageT-“’ Tuesday, June 9, 1998 

1 things, but I do not have any specific recollection as to 

2 what that conversation was about. 

3 Q PIease tell us the possibilities of topics that you 

4 were discussing with President Clinton in that ten-minute 

5 call at 8:55 a.m. on January 19, 1998. 

6 A It could have been about what our day is going to 

I be about. It could have been about the state of the union. 

8 It could have been about Erskine Bowles. It could have ken 

9 about Monica Lewinsky and the general situation. It could 

10 have been about the Drudge Report. 

II I just do not have an accurate recollection of what 

L2 this conversation - it could have been about our golf game. 

13 I just -- and if I had a specific recollection about what 

14 that conversation was about, I’d tell you. 

15 Q Doyouknowwktkrornotatthetimeofthat 

16 umversaticm you already had plans to meet with the PresidRlt 

17 later that day at the White House? 

18 A I think maybe I said I would stop by. That’s 

Page 15 

19 entirely possible. 

!O Q It could have been in that conversation -- 

!l A It could have been 

!2 Q - it could have been at another time. 

!3 A It could have been later on. 

!4 Q Letmeaskyoufortherecord,sir,ifyoucantry 

!5 not to talk over me and I’ll try to do the same to you 

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Q All right. Let’s look at call number 12. At IO:29 

that morning, there’s a call from your office to the White 

House general operator number, a for three minutes 

and 42 seconds. Do you see that, sir? 

A I do. 

Q And that’s one of the numbers that you call to try 

to get a hold of President Clinton, correct? 

A Yes. Itisoneof thenumbers. I alsocall,as 

I’ve said here before, a which is Nancy Hernreich’s 

number. 

Q To get a hold of the Resident. 

A To get hold of the President_ 

Q Do you believe that that tbme-minute and 42-second 

call at lo:29 am. front your office was a calI by you to the 

President? 

A I don’t know. It’s entirely possible that it was. 

ItisalsopossiblethatIwasmllinPsomebodytosaythatI 

was coming by after lunch. 

Q Whatothertopicsmightyouhavekcussedinthat 

call? 

A I do not have a specific ~kction, not only of 

this call, but of the substance of this thm-minute 

42-second conversation. 

Q IfIweretoaskyoutoitemizethevarious 

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possible topics that it could have been about, would it have 

been the same list of possibilities that you gave us in 

response to my question about call number 1 I? 

A Yes. 

9 m Do you see that? 

0 A Yes. 

Q Now, at IO:33 -- so as soon as you got off the 

phone with whoever you spoke to for three minutes and 42 

secondsattbeWhiteHouse,tbseisapagefromyourpboae 

to Monica L.e@sky’s pager, “Please call Mr. Jordan at 

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Q And that was a call that you would have placed, 

correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And so you are certain that you would have been 

trying to get a bold of Monica Lewinsky. 

A Yes. 

Q Attbattimeandontbatday. 

A Yes. And I know what it was about. 

Q Okay. And let me ask one other question and then 

we’ll come back to that. Then immediately tbereaftzr, a 

10:45, there is a oxx-minute and 12-second call from your 

phone to Nancy Hanreich’s numbu, -do you sa 

that, sir? 

A Ido. 

Q Andtbatistbenumbertbatyoucalltotrytoget 

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A Thatisconwt. 

Q AndItbinkyoualreadytoldusthatonMartin 

Luther King Day, your memory is that Nancy Hcmreich was 

not working, correct? 

A That is correct, but she was in the office that 

day. 

Q Do you believe that that call at lo:35 am. was to 

the President? 

A It could have been to the President. It could have 

beenadirectcalltoNancyHemreich. 

Q Okay. Now, why were you trying to get a bold of 

Monica Lewinsky at IO:33 a.m. that morning? 

A IwastryingtofmdA4onicaIzwinskyhecauseIhad 

justheenexposedthedaybeforetotheDrudgeReportaadI 

wantitoaskluzrwhatshelmewahouttheDrudgcReport 

Q Okay. Inligbtofthefacttbattbatcallis 

immediatelyafteracallforthreeminutesand42sxxmdsto 

the general White House opeaator’s number and immediatey 

before a call for a minute and 12 seconds to Nancy 

Hemreich’s number, do you believe that in cithfx of those 

calls, either the lo;29 call to the White House or the lo:35 

call to the White House, you would have spoken to ti 

President about Monica Lewinsky? 

A Possible. Whether I did or not, I don’t know. It 

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is entirely possible. 

Q Okay. Is it fair to say that Monica LewinsLy ant 

matters related thereto was onz of the issues that you were 

dealing with that day? 

A I think that’s fair to say. Yes. 

Q Is it fair to say that on the priority of issues 

thatyouweredealingwithonMartinLutherKingDaythat1 

was the primary issue you were dealing with? 

A No, it’s not fair to say that it was the primary 

issue, but it was one of the issues. Monica lxwinsky was 

never sort of a primary issue in my life. It was a 

tangential issue in my life. I dealt with it 

As I have said he& before, I dealt with it 

successfully in terms of getting her a job and, secondly. 

successfully in terms of getting ller counsel. 

Q Whatotherissuescmthatdayrankedinimportan~ 

ashightoyouas&alingwithwhatyoujustleamedahout 

Monica Imvinsky? Namely the Drudge Report and matters 

related thereto? 

A I sort of don’t prioritize my issues. I cannot 

tell you what priority of issues were on my mind on a 

&May. Tkzeafemanyissucscmmymkdcvuy&y.wbkr 

I’mtalldngtotheWhiteHouseorwhetberI’mtalkinntoa 

client. So tbc notion that this was an issue of primacy for 

me, I mean, it doesn’t make sense to me. 

Page 2( 

1 Q Well, sir, let me represent to you that on these 

2 four pages there are 31 calls between yourself and any 

3 combination of Monica Ltwinsky, mauk of tbc White Hourit 

+ counsel’s off&, Frank Carter or the President. In light of 

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thefactthatthereare31 callsontkMartinLuthxKb 

holiday to those numbers, is it accurate that rn&m related 

to Monica L&n&y wuc an iqortant concun for you on that 

day? 

A Well, we have not gotten to the &moon calls, 

counsel, and the afternoon calls were in fact about Monica 

Lewinskyandwhenyougettotbeafteoooncalls,I.willtell 

you what the aftemoon calls were about_ 

Q &J you xmembermyquestiontbatIjusta&edsir? 

Do you want me to ask it again? My question was is it 

accuratetbatonthisdaymattersrelatingtoMonicaIxwins@ 

were an important concern to you? 

A It iS acCUrate that ~II the afternoOn fOflOw& my 

lunch with Frank Carter that the Monica Lewin&y issu 

9 ~urfaeed. Thatisnottruebasedon~yrecollecticmintbe 

3 rrxxGlgaccptthatIwascuriaUabouttkDrudgcRcportaod 

I Ididinfactplaceacalltoher. 

2 Q Okay. Now, the IO:44 a.m - we’ll just go down 

3 thesenextcalls. At10:44,thaeisaone-minutecallfrom 

1 yourself to Erskine Bowles’ nmnba. Do you do ze that? 

5 A Yes, I do. 

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1 Q 1053, there is a 36-second call from your office 

2 to Frank Carter’s office. Do you see that? 

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3 A Yes, I do. 

4 Q Okay. Why were you making that call? 

5 A To confirm lunch 

6 Q Any other reason? 

7 A And I don’t think I talked to him in 36 seconds. 

8 Q You believe that would have been a message? 

9 A That’s right 

0 Q 10:58, there is a one-minute call from President 

1 Clinton to yourself and 1’11 represent to you there is a 

2 presidential caIl log reflecting that one-minute call. 

3 Call 18, 11:04, a call from your office to Bruce 

4 Lindsey, a 24-szumd call. That would have likely been a 

5 message? 

6 A Ithinkthat’ScOITeCt 

7 Q 11:16a_rn.,thereisanotherpagefromyouto 

8 Monica Lewinsky’s pager, “Please call Mr. Jordan” at your 

9 number. Do you see that, sir? 

0 A I do. 

1 Q And that would have been a page that you made? 

2 A That’s right 

3 Q Why were you trying to get Monica Lewinsky? 

4 A For the same reason that I was trying to find her 

5 at 10:33. 

Multi-Pagem Tuesday, June 9,1998 

I 

1 and Monica Lewinsky, you were curious to find out if t&-e 

2 was any merit to it, correct? 

3 A I had already settled my mind on that. 

4 Q Okay. So then you did not have any curiosity to 

5 ask Ms. Lzwinsky about the accuracy of the allegation in the 

6 Drudge Report that there was a relationship between her and 

7 the President? 

8 A I was calling to ask her what she knew about the 

9 Drudge Report period. I had satisfied myself, as I testified 

1 0 herebefore,thatonDecember19thItalkedtobothsbeaad 

1 1 the President, asking them the question about sexual 

1 2 relationships, which you questioned me extensively the fLst 

1 3 timeIcamehere,~dIwassatisfiedontbe19thbybothof 

1 4 them that there was no sexual relationship. 

1 5 So the notion that I would revisit that was not my 

1 6 issueonthatmorning. Iwasjustcuriousgenemllyabout 

1 7 theIsiioffstory,tbeDrudgeReport,andIwantedtoknow 

1 8 what she knew about it. Period. 

1 9 Q And you weren’t successful in getting any of that 

2’ 0 information from Ms. Lewinsky that morning, correct? 

2 1 A That is correct. 

2 2 Q Because Ms. Lewinsky did not calI you back, 

2 3 correct? 

2’ 4 A That is correct. 

2 5 Q Now,therewez-etwopartiesmentionedintheDrudge 

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Q What was it that happened in the intervening hour 

tomakeyoucallheryetagain? 

A Ididnotgetherthefmttime. Iwasttying 

again. 

Q Were you conceraed that perhaps your page didn’t go 

through the fm time? 

A I assumed that it got through. I just don’t -- I 

mean, I called again. I didn’t -- if at first you don’t 

succeed, you try again. 

Q Are there times when you don’t try again because 

it’s just not that important to you? 

A Thereare. 

Q why is it that on this occasion it was important 

enough to you to call her, page her, a second time within 45 

mixluteS? 

A As I said about the lo:33 calI, the same thing is 

hueaboutthe 11:16call. Iwascuriousaboutherreaction 

totheDrudgeReporfwhichIhadrectivtdthepreviousday 

from Bruce Lindsey. And I think I testified to that. 

Q What did you intend to ask her about the Drudge 

Report? 

A What do you know about it, about the Tripp tapes, 

which was stunning to me. I knew nothing about that_ 

Q Is it accllrate!thatinIightofthefactthatthis 

Drudge Report alleged a relationship between the President 

Report, h4s. Lewinsky and the President, correct? 

A That’s Correct 

Q You did succeed in talking to the President for at 

least 10 minutes that morning, conect? 

A Yes. 

Q In order to satisfy your curiosity as to the 

accuracy of the Drudge Report, did you ask the President 

during your ten-minute caU with him about any of the matters 

in the Drudge Report? 

A Ididnot. 

Q Why not? 

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A I don’t know. I did not ask him. 

Q Well, can you think of a reason why your cuksity 

caused you to try to ask Ms. Lewinsky about it, but not to 

ask the President about it? 

A No. 

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Q Now,we’reupto11:17a.m. ThereisanothercaII 

from your phone to Bruce Lindsey’s number at tk White House. 

Do you see that? 

A I do. 

Q 1thinkIsaidp.m. It’s11:17a.m.,caIInumbez 

20, colrcct? 

Q And that’s a minute and 36 seconds, correct? 

A That’s conCct. 

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1 Q Now, that’s at least the second call that morning 1 Q Okay. Do you think it might have been about Monxz 

2 from your number to Bruce Lindsey’s Why were you calling r 2 Lewinsky? 

3 him at that time on January 19th? 3 A Possible. 

4 A BecaurzIwasonmywaytotheWhitcHouscandI 4 Q Now, at this point, it’s -- up to this point, you 

5 think it was Bruce Lindsey’s office, I think, that 5 still have not met with Frank Carter, correct? 

6 actually_Idon’thaveaWhiteHousepassandsoIhadto 6 A I’monmywaytohmchwithFraukCartcr. Ithink 

7 get in the White House. And I think it was through his 7 that’s why I’m in my automobile. 

8 office that I was admitted to the White House. 8 Q Okay. Now, the next -- there’s a call at I:43 

9 Q Now, what speci.ficaIIy do you believe that you 9 between the Resident and Betty Cunie, obviously it does not 

0 spoke with Mr. Lindsey about that morning? 1 0 involve you, and then the next call at 2:29 p.m.. there is a 

1 A About getting into the white House. 1 1 calI from your mobik pbonc again in y&r car to 0 for 

2 Q Didyoudiscusswithhimanythingaboutth:Drudge 1 2 two minutes. Do you see that? 

3 Report? 1 3 A Yes. 

4 A I don’t have any reco&ction of having done that, 1 4 Q So is it accurate, sir, that upon leaving the Park 

5 having discussed that with him at lunch the day before. 1 5 Hyattandtliehm&eonwithFninkCarteryouagaincaUedth 

6 Q Now, then we get to around 12:30, which is 1 6 White House? 

7 approximately whm you met with Frank Carter at the Park 1 7 A Yes. Because I’m on my way to the White House 

8 Hyatt, correct? 1 8 Q Can you think of any reason why you would have 

9 A Right 1 9 called the. White House both literally as you were going in to 

0 Q And you’ll note at 12:31 pm., call number 21, 2 0 meet with Frank Carter and then upon leaving the luncheon 

1 there’s a call from your mobile phone, _ -- 2 1 with Frank Carter? 

2 A That’s my automobile phone. 2 2 A I cannot. 

3 Q Okay. To the White House geoeral number, _ 2 3 Q Is there even a range of possibilities? 

4 for three minutes. Correct? 2 4 A Well, the range of possibility was to be assured 

5 A Yes. 2 5 that I would -- to say that I was on my way, that I had 

Page 28 

1 ftiskd my business and I was on my way to tk. white House 

2 Q Okay. Is it accurate, then, sir, from what you 

3 told us today that the i.mPoticc of the Monica Lewin&y, 

4 whatever importance you placed on that, was greater after 

5 your lunch with Frank Carter than before? 

6 A Yes, after my hmch, but way after my lunch when 

7 Frank Carter and I had a subsequent conversation. 

8 Q Okay. So was there anything about your lunch with 

9 Frankcarterthat~youtofeelyoushouldspeakwith 

1 0 anyone at tk White House about tbc Drudge Report, tbc Monica 

1 1 Lewinsky matter or anything attendant thereto? 

1 2 A No. 

1 3 Q Now, we spoke at length about your lunch with Frank 

1 4 Carter before -- 

1 5 A Yes. 

1 6 Q - so 1 don’t plan on revisiting that other than 

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Q Now, fast of a& that phone, is that something 

that you walk around with or it always stays in the car? 

A That’s my car phone and it always stays in my 

automobile. 

Q So does the fact that that call occurred at 12:31 

from your mobile automobile phone make you think that you 

were still in the car at that time? As opposed to in the 

restaurant. 

A IfthisphonecalIisfrom_,Iwasinmy 

automobile. 

Q Do you believe that -- first of all, on that day, 

was anyone in the automobile around that time other than you 

or your driver? 

A I was alone. I don’t use my driver mostly on 

weekrmds. 

Q Okay. So you believe that you would have made that 

call, correct? 

A I’m certain that I made that call. 

Q Okay. Who did you taIk to in that three-minute 

conversation? 

A I don’t know. 

Q Why were you calhng the White House? 

A Idon’tknowthe answertothat+sto~Iwas 

caUing,butitwasfrommycaranditwasto_,the 

nature of the call, I do not know. 

/ 

7 just to ask you, is there anything that you don’t believe 

8 that you told us before about that lunch that you’d like to 

9 teIl us about now? 

0 A IthinkwhenItoldyouaboutthelunchthefirst 

1 ti.nx,ItoldyoueverythingIhadtotellyouabouttbelunch 

2 and anything you want to go over about it again, I’m more 

3 than happy to do that. 

4 Q Okay. Well, of the approximately ho& and a half 

5 thatyouwerewithFrankC.i&r,howlongdoyoubeliazthai 

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you spoke about the Drudge Report, Monica Lewinsky or 

anything related thereto? 

A I think I testified here before that I shared the 

Drudge Report, I told Frank Carter where I got it from, 

shareditwithhimandsaidthismaybeofsomehelptoyou, 

I just got it from Bruce Lindsey yesterday. 

And beyond that, there was no extended discussion 

about it except that I thought that it was some information 

that he needed, that he would want to have about his 

client. I was responsible for his client, therefore, I 

felt some responsibility to share this information with 

him. 

I have said here before that I would not insult 

FrankCarterbytellinghimanythingabouthiscase,inla%e 

measufebecauszIknownothingaboutthetryingofcriminal 

matters. 

Q Did you tell Frank Carter in that lunch, or cm any 

call or conversation you had with him that day, that you had 

SW with anyone at Ue WhiQ House about the Drudge Report 

or Monica Lewinsky? 

A Well, I certainly told him the source of the 

Drudge Report. I don’t have any recollection of reporting 

to Frank Carter that I had had conversations with the White 

HousebecauseIsawnoneedtoreporttoFrankCarterabout 

conversations that I had had with the White House. 

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And I go back to what I’ve said earlier, that my 

conversations with the White House that morning could have 

been about any number of things, including Monica L.cwinsky. 

Q Would you agree, sir, that just based --just 

looking at the list of calls between you and the White House 

on the morning of the 1% up through call number 21, the 

12:3 1 call, right as you were going in to meet with Frank 

Carter, that that was an unusually high number of calls for a 

morning between you and the White House? 

A It was not out of the ordinary. I have had many 

callsmaIlytimesdepenclinguponthecircumstance. I&ink1 

have explained that to the grand juxy before. And so I don’t 

view it as unusual. 

Depending upon - I mean, if you -- if yoy you 

know, subpoenaed my calls this week, it would be a lot of 

calls there from the White House back and forth, but they’re 

not my calls. They’re Mrs. Jordan’s calls. So calls back 

and forth between the Jordan household and the White House 

since 1993, January 2Otl1, as I have said before here, is not 

anunusualthing. AndsoIdon’tviewthisstateofcallsas 

some unusual, unique circumstance. 

Q Well, sir, you’ll recall that we have been looking 

at phone summary records like this begin&g back as early as 

early November of 1997, correct? 

A I don’t know what’s the scope of your 

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investigation. 

Q I’m talking about what the scope of documents we’ye I 

placed before you over the course of your testimony. 

A Yes. 

Q All right. And would you agree with me, sir, ti 

this is a higher number of calls than we’ve s8en at least in 

documents that we’ve shown to you in the course of this gear 

jury appearance bctwuzn yourself and tk White House for that 

span of time? 

A Iacceptthat. 

Q And do you believe -- is there anything about the 

way that we’ve shown documents to you or your memory tha 

makes you think that we have inadvertently or o-se left 

off calls on the dates we’ve shown you between yourself and 

the White House? 

A I don’t believe that you left off calls. My 

contention is still that this is not an unu3ual circumstaua 

in terms of my communications with the White House. 

Q So would it be fair to say, then, sir, that your 

conclusion is it was s-t unusual b&van Nova&~, early 

November, of ‘97 and this date, but that if you go back in 

time to 1993 and your involvement with the White House, it’ 

not unusual? 

A Yes. I’ve been talking to William Jefferson 

Clinton sina 1973, for a very long time, over a long period 

Page 3; 

of time, and so, for me, a telephone conversation, the 

frequency thereof, it’s up and down. 

And I am not saying -- here again, as I’ve said 

before, I am not ruling out a conversation about Monica 

Lewinsky, but I am telling you that it could have been about 

many other things. 

Q What other issues come to mind to you since 199: 

that you believe that you would have had this volume of calls 

9 to the White House, about in the course of a day? 

0 A I was chairman of the transition. I was a dkctor 

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of RJR Nabisco, which made! cigarettes, and -- a lot of calls, 

even before - to the governor’s mansion when it was thought 

that I was going to be attorney general. A lot of calls. 

‘he whole appointment process during the transition. A lo& 

of calls. In my experience, calls between the Rtzsident_ 

myself,theFiiLadyandmywifeorviaversa,isnotan 

unusual thing. 

This Saturday morning, there were a lot of calls. 

The notion that this Saturday morning -- 

MR. LERNER: Excuse me. Monday morning. I’m 

sorry. 

THE- Mondaymoming. Thattbiswassome 

unique circumstan ce, I don’t fmd it unique. 

BY hfR.BIENERT: 

Q Okay. So my question again, though, sir, is what 

Diversified Re~ortinn Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

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1 otizrissuesorareasortimeswouldtherehavelxxxwhenyou 1 And I’ll state for the record it sbows~, but in doubl 

2 would have had this volume of calls to the White House? 2 ckzking tbosc records the numb was actually~which is 

3 Now, you’ve told us during the transition -- 3 another number at Frank carter’s office. Do you see that, 

4 A I don’t know. Let’s go subpoena the calls since 4 sir? 

5 1993. I don’t know. 5 _4 I do. 

6 Q But as you sit here now, is there any topic that 6 Q SoFrankCarteralso.triedtopageMs.Lewinskyon 

7 staods out in your mind that would involve this volume of 7 ti day. Now, when you met with Frank Cartex just a few 

8 callsonagiven&yfromyoutotheWhiteHouseotherthan 8 minutes or an hour or so before, that was after you had tried 

9 during the time of the transition in 1993? 9 to get hold of Monica Letisky twice that day, correct: 

0 A Theaz have been many crises in this govemmmt and 10 A Right. 

1 it’sbeenmygoodforhmetobeconsultedandtallcedtoabout 11 Q And you didn’t hear from her, did you? 

2 thesecrises. Soyounamethecris&you’relikelytogeta 12 A I didnot. 

3 spate of telephone calls. 13 Q Was there ever a &me during that luncheon with 

4 Q Sowlxntherearecrises,thcreistypicaUy,orat 14 Mr. Carter that you indicated that you were txying to ge 

5 least fnzquently, a spate of telephone calls. 1s hold of his client? 

6 A Possiily. 16 A I may have said to him I was curious about .thc 

7 Q Well, other than uisis, what else would there 17 Drudge Report and I called her. 

8 be--whatotbertinxswouldtherebeanunusnaLlyheavy 18 Q Okay. 

9 volume of calls between yourself and the White House? 19 A That’s a logical thing. 

0 A Scmdxdy could be sick. We’re arranging a golf 20 Q Did you ask him what he knew about the Drudge 

1 game. Any number of things could bring that about_ 21 &port from his client? 

2 MR BIEPIZRT: All right. Now, we’re up to the 2:29 22 A Ididnot. Ithinkthcfirsttime--thatwhenI 

3 callframywtotbeWhiteHouseandlet’slookat_wehave 23 gavchimtbeDrudgeReporfitwasthefirsttimehehadsea! 

4 thtwAVE~fOl.whcnyoumDacdtbc’WhitcHouscmthat 24 it, as the day before at lunch was the first time that I hat 

5 day. 25 seen it 

Page 34 Page 3t 

1 We’ll place before you Exhibit 5-VJ-6. 1 Q Did you and h4r. Carter discuss in any way any 

2 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. s-Vi15 2 further efforts that would be taken to get in touch with 

3 was marked for identification.) 3 Ms. tinsky? 

4 BY MR BIENJZRT: 4 A No. 

5 Q Sir, that’s a WAVE record reflecting an entry by 5 Q Did he indicate to you during that luach the last 

6 you--I’msorry,ifIcanjustlookatitsoIcanmakesurc 6 time he had spoken to Ms. Lewinsky? 

7 I’m quoting it correctly -- indicating last name, first name, 7 A I don’t have any recollection that he did. 

B Vwon Jordan., cntaing the White House - it shows en&y TOA 8 Q Allright. Now,ifwegotocalls25and26and 

9 at 1444, which is 2:44 in the afternoon, on January 19,1998. 9 27, there is a 4:51 call from your office to Betty Cunie’s 

3 It shows visitee M-y and requester Murray. Do you see 10 residence for a minute and 42 seconds. Do you see that’ 

1 that? 11 A I do. 

2 A hh-hmm. 12 Q And thee immediately thereafter them’s a call from 

3 Q First of all, as far as the time, does 2x44 or 13 your offlice to Frank carter’s residence. Do you see that? 

4 t.hereahou& sound like about the time you would have gone to 14 A Right. 

5 the White House that day? 15 Q A short call there. And then at 4:54 immediately 

5 A Itb. 16 hreafm there’s a call to Frank Ca+r’s office and that 

I Q who’s Murray? Do you know? 17 was a four-minute call. Do you see that? 

s A I don’t have any idea. 18 A Yes, I do. 

3 Q IsitaccuratethatwbznyouwenttotheW’hite 19 Q Okay. Now, do you believe that you’re the one that 

3 HouseonMartinLutherKingDaythatyouweregoingtosee 20 madcthosecalls? 

1 thepreSident? 21 A Yes. 

2 A That’s right. 22 Q m right. So at 4:51, you called Betty Cwe at 

3 Q And if you look at call number 24 at about that 23 her home, correct? 

4 sametime,tfiereisacallfromFrankCarter,apage,to 24 A Yes. 

5 Monica Lcwinsy, “Pkase call Frank Carter at _ 25 Q Why did you call Betty Cunie -- 

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Q I’m sorry. Let me just go back and ask something 

first. When you were at the White House on the 1% was 

Betty Curie there that day? 

A She was not. 

Q So you knew upon going to the White House or once 

you were there that Betty was not at work that day. 

A She was not in the office. Nancy Hernreich was 

there. Betty Currie was not there. 

-’ Q All right. So why were you calling Ms. Currie that 

day? 

A I think I was probably calling her to talk to her 

about the Drudge Report, ask her what she knew about it. If 

you remember, I testified here once before that Betty Currie 

sought my counsel when she was calkd by Micbacl I&off, who 

is the subject of the Drudge Report, and she came to my 

office and I said to her, “Betty, I think you should take 

this matter up with Bruce Lindsey and with Mike McCurry.” 

And she left my office. I think I testified to that before 

here. And having seen the report, I think that’s a call to 

Betty to say “What do you know about this?” 

Q Okay. And what did Betty tell you? 

A I don’t have any recollection. I think - my best 

recollection is that she was as surprised by the Drudge 

Report as I was. I don’t have any -- I don’t recall exactly 

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what her reaction was to it, but I think that’s what it wa: 

about. 

Q Well, first of all, when you spoke to her that day, 

based cm your conversation, did you get the sense that she 

already knew of the existence of the Drudge Report about 

Monica and the President, regardless of what she knew about 

the veracity of its content? 

A I don’t know the answer to that, counsel. 

Q Was there anything about -- frrs of all, when you 

talked to her about the Drudge Report, did you have to 

explain to her what the Drudge Report was? 

A I don’t think so. 

Q Did you have to explain to her the content of what 

the report alleged? 

A I don’t recollect having to do that. I mean, I 

tbinksbcknmwhattbeDr&eRcportwas. AndIwascurious 

about it and I called her. 

Q So your best recollection is that - 

A It’s a very Short d. 

Q - is that you did not have to advise her of what 

the Drudge Report was or what the allegation was in it. 

A Yes. 

Q Now, earlier, and we won’t talk in detail about it 

because I know you told us last time. about your meeting with 

the President that day, but the follow-up question I have is 

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kgeTM Tuesday, June 9,1998 

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when you met with the President at the White House on *A 

19th of January at approximately 2:45,3:00, did you a! az> 

time mention Betty Currie as she related to anything alxx 

Monica? 

A I don’t have any recollection of any conversation 

with the President about Betty Currie. 

Q Did the President -- okay. And by that, I take it 

neither from you or from him. 

A That’s Correct 

Q Did the President acknowledge to you, either 

directly or implicitly, that he was aware that Betty Currie 

had been involved in things related to Monica? 

A The President and I - the President obviously, as 

I’ve testified here before, lmew tbat Betty Currie, as I have 

alsotestifiedherebefore,wasthefirstpersontoeallme 

about getting work for Monica Lewimlq. 

Q AndI’mtryingtofocusonasbestyoucanrecall 

the meeting on the 19th. Do you have any recollection of thz 

President in any way saying anythins or indicating anything 

relating to the fact that Betty had been involved in getting 

you on board, in anything related to Monica? 

A No. I don’t recollect any specific conversation 

betweenthePresidentandIthatafternoon,betweenthe 

President and me on that afternoon, about Betty Cunie. 

Q AII right. Now, immediately after getting off the 

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phone with Betty Currie, you called Frank Carter’s house. 

Doyouseethafsir? 

ARight. 

Q And I’m assuming you didn’t get a hold of him 

there, right? 

A Right. 

Q And then you immediately called his office, 

correct? 

A Idid. 

Q What did you and Frank Carter talk about for four 

minutes in that 454 pm. call? 

A That is when Frank Carter informed me that - I 

rananba this convaTation. That is when be i&mud me that 

he was no longer Monica Lewin&y’s lawyer, that he had been 

relieved, that he had received a call from a Mr. William 

Ginsburg nod that William Ginsbmg bad co&mcdtobimtbat 

he, Mr. Carter, was no longer Ms. Lewinsky’s lawyer and that 

he and Nathaniel Speigh~ a local lawyer hem, were now 

repmsenting Ms. Lewmsky. 

Q Didheinf~youhowheleamedofthisehangein 

attorneys? 

A IgatherGinsburgcalledhim. 

Q And when you say you gather that, you gather do 

fromwhateveritwasthatMr.Ca&rtoldyouinthat 

conversation? 

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Q Did be tell you anything about whether he had had 

any convczsations with Ms. Lcwhsky since the Drub Report 

came. out? 

A My recollection is that he had not spoken directly 

to his client, but had only spoken to her lawyer, her new 

lawyer, h4r. Ginsburg. 

Q Did Frank Carter ever a& you what you knew about 

the allegations in the Drudge Report? 

-4 I’m sure that at some point I told Frank Carter 

t.hatIbadaskedbothMs.Lewins@andthePre.siclentabout 

sexual relationships and they both said no. 

Q DidMr.Cartereverindicatetoyouwhetherhehad 

bad any such conversations with Ms. Lewinsky? 

A Idon’t remember that. 

Q WbatelsedidyouandMr.Carterdiscussinthat 

four-minute call? 

A Well, part of it was my own embarrassment that I 

hadanangcdforhimtobccounsclandhchaddoncsomework 

andallofasuddenbewasnolongercounselandxexpressed 

myregtetthathehadbeenmmmarilydismissedandwas 

notifii not by his client, but by her counsel, and I felt 

badly about that. 

Q You felt badly about that because be got involved 

in the whole situation because of your referral. 

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Q And you felt like it was the right thing to do in 

light of that to tell him about it and that you felt bad 

about it, correct? 

A That iS Comt. 

Q And that’s the same type of thing you did with 

Revlon and some of the other companies, once you realimd 

about the allegations, you called them and in essence made 

similar types of statements to then& correct? 

A That is not wrmA 

Q Okay. Well, is it accurate, sir, that you did 

inform Mr. Gittis at Revlon? 

A That iS Wrrect. 

Q And you did that because you felt it was the right 

thing to do because you bad referred her to Revlon. 

A That’s right. 

Q Did anybody at the white House, such as the 

President or Betty Cuniq ever express a similar sentiment 

to you? Something along the lines of “I’m really sorry I got 

you involved in this.” 

A Ithinkso. Probably. Ithinkit was the 

President probably, but I don’t know that it was Betty 

Cunie. IsawBettyyesmiayandIthinkwesortoffeel 

badly for each other. 

Q But she didn’t expressly say anything to you? 

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1 A I don’t have any recollection of her having done 

2 so. 

3 Q All right. Let’s talk about the President. When 

4 do you believe that the President expressed to you some 

s degree of sorrow that he got you involved in this? 

6 A The evening that I was in the St. Regis Hotel in 

7 New York, when we had a late night conversation. 

8 Q And we’ll be coming up to that, but that would LX 

9 around the 21st? 

0 A That’s WrrXt. 

1 Q Okay. What is it that the President told you? 

2 A &tk21st? 

3 Q Yes, sir. 

4 A He just said, “God, 1% sorry that you’re in the 

s middle of this.” And my view was that - that’s life. 

6 Q Is that what you told him? 

7 A hISWeIdid. 

8 MR BIENERTz Okay. Well, we’ll follow up on that 

9 conversation in a few minutes. 

0 THE FORESERSON: Excuse me, Mr. Bienert. It’s time 

1 for the grand jury to take a break. 

2 MR. BIENERT: Okay. How long of a break would you 

3 like? 

4 TKE FOREPERSON: Ten minutes. 

5 MR. BIENERT: Okay. 

Page 44 

THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Jordan, you can be excused for 

ten minutes. 

THE WlTNESS: Thank you so much 

(Witness excused. Witness recalled) 

THE FOREPERSON: h4r. Jordan, you are still under 

oath. 

THE WITNESS: Thank you, Forelady. 

MR. BXENERT: And I will note for the record that 

MadamFoqersonhasrejoinedusandisbaekintheroum. 

THE FOREPERSON: Yes. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q Okay, h4r. Jordan. We were up to calls 28 and 29 on 

the January 19,1998 Summary log. So just rekcting back, 

call 27 was the four-minute call you explained to us with 

Mr. Carter and thereafkr, just sort of going down the list, 

there was a 12-second call from your oflice at 458 to Mr. 

Lindsey or his number. Correct? 

A Mn&nm. 

Q A minute later, there was a 42-second call from 

your office to Cheryl Mills’ uumber. 

At 5:00, there was an 18-second call from your 

office to Mr. Lindsey’s number. 

A&n at 5:OO or thereafter, &enz was q 24-second 

call from your office to Charles Ruff of White House couusel. 

At 505, there was a very brief six-second call 

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1 from your office to Mr. Lindsey’s White House office number. 

2 At 5:05, there was another call from your office 

3 number to Bruce Lindsey’s number for 18 seconds. 

4 And then at 5:05, there is a two-minute and 

5 12--d call from your office to the general White House 

6 number, p Do you see that, sir? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q Okay. Do you believe that you made all those 

9 calls? 

.O, A I am confident that I made all those calls. 

,l Q WhatwaS going on WiththOSe CdS? 

.2 A Well, if you go back to call 27, I had just been 

3 told by Frank Carter that he has been relieved of his duties 

4 as eounSe1 to Ms. Lewinsky and so I’m obviously -- this is 

5 ~hmning news and so I’m obviously Uying to tell somebody 

.6 that that has happened. And nobody’s home. 

7 Q And you’re trying to tell somebody at the White 

8 House. 

9 A Iam. 

10 Q why are you trying to tell someone at the white 

II House that this has happened? 

I2 A Thought they had a right to know. 

!3 Q my? 

14 A The President asked me to get Monica Lewinsky a 

15 job. I got her a lawyer. The Drudge Report is out and she 

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has IKW counsel. I thought that was information that they 

ought to have and I tried to impart it without much success, 

as calls 28 through 33 indicate. 

Q And now if we look at call 34,5:05 for two minutes 

and 12 seconds. would you agree that it appears that you did 

get hold of someone at the White House in that call? 

A Yes, but I don’t know who it is and whom I talked 

to. Maybe you have a record of whom I talked to from the 

White House. 

MR BIENERT: And I’ll submit to you we don’t or we 

would have tried to submit it, but let me ask Mr. Lerner. 

MR. LERNER: No. 

MR. BIENERT: Comet. We do not. 

THE WTTMSS: And it could be in this two minutes, 

12 seconds, I’m asking the operator to find somebody because 

everybody’s taken a holiday and I’ve got something to impart. 

BY h4R. BIENERT: 

Q Okay. Now, then at 5:09, there’s a minute and 

six-second call to Cheryl hGUs’ number. Do you believe that 

you would have spoken to her? 

A I don’t think I talked to anybody. 

Q Okay. And now we get up to call 36, which is at 

5:14, it’s an eight-minute and 24-second call initiated by 

you to Frank Carter. Do you see that? 

A Yes. 

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Q Do you believe -- let’s scan the time from call 

number 27, your 4:54 in the afternoon call to Frank Caner, 

all the way up to your 5:14 call for eight minutes to Frank 

Carter, do you believe that you would have succeeded in 

speaking to anyone at the White House in between those two 

Frank Carter calls? 

A I do not think so. 

Q You initiated the first call to Frank Carter at 

4:54. Do you see that? 

A Atwhattime? 

Q 4:54, call 27. 

A’figh fight 

Q Why is it that you initiated another call to Frank 

Carter at 5:14 pm.? 

A Iobviouslywantedtotalk~himbutIdon’tknow 

exactlywhyIcalledhimup,nordoIlmow~~Iwas 

caUinghiminxqonsztoacalltometogivemethenews. 

l&factisIdidcallhimanditwasinthatconversation 

that he told me that new counsel had been hired. 

Q Okay. WelI, let’s try to explore as best we can 

thesehvocallsandtowhatdegreeyoufeellikeyouknow 

whatyoudiscussedinoneversustbeotherortbeyallbl~ 

together. 

We have two separate calls between you and Frank 

Carter, one at 4:54 in the afternoon for four minutes and 

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thenoneat5:14intheaftern~foreightminutes. Doyou 

see that? 

A sure. 

Q As you sit here now, do you believe that both of 

these calls would have related to the new counsel issue? 

A I think it’s all part of the same conversation, 

havingtodowithtbefactthathehadjustbeendismissedas 

counse~hehadnottalkedtohisclient,khadbeentalked 

tobythenewcounsel. AndI’mjusttalkingtohimabout 

this process. 

Q Okay. Now, during the 5: 14 call, call 36 on the 

list,didyoutellFrankCarteroriadicatetohiminaayway 

thatyouhadbeentryingtogetaholdofsomeoneatti 

White House? 

A Idon’tthinkso. Idon’tthinkIhadanyreason 

totellhimt.hatIwastryingtogetaholdofsomebodya 

tbeWbiteHouse. Bythesametoken,Imayhavesaid”Ican’ 

fmd anybody in the White House.” 

Q can you think of any reason why you wouldn’t have 

told him? 

A No, 1 cannot. 

Q Anddoyouthinkthatitwasvezypossibleorwould 

bavctKcn.9omlxvhataatUralforyoutoupda~himonwhaWu 

you could if you had learned anything more? 

A Had I learned something, I would have told him 

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Q Is there anything else that you can recall that you 

wouldhaveleamedfromFrankCarterint.hatseumdcallat 

5:14 or told Frank Carter than what you’ve told us in 

relation to the other calI at 4:54? 

A No. 

Q Addressingthosztwocallsorthesubstanceofyour 

discussions with Mr. Carter, you told us more or less what 

yourecallhimtellingyou What,ifanytb.ing,didyoutell 

him? 

A Ineff~thatItboughtIhadgottenyouagood 

~afuncasearwhateva,dI’msorry,myfriend,that 

you were summarily dismissed. 

+And I apologize, because I reaIize you had already 

told us that_ Is there anything else that you recalI telling 

him? 

A Not aecessarily. No. 

Q Do you believe that you would have told him 

anythingbywayofadvicearstrategyastowbattodo,such 

as sit ti& 1’11 Iet you know if I know anything more or 

anything? 

A As I’ve said to the grand jury before, it would be 

vayp~~p~ofmtogivtadvicetoFrankCartawhois 

aa expert crimid lawyer and I know nothing about it. So 

advice in criminal matters, I haven’t tried a case, we can 

strike that in terms of advice and counsel from me. 

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InothermattersperGningtoIifeasalawyer 

in Washington and whether you ought to practice by yourself 

orwhetberyououghttopracticeinabiglawf~thatis 

possible. 

Q And let me throw out - let’s get rid of the word 

advice but just -- did you indicate to Mr. Carter that you 

would try to get any information you could and pass it on to 

him? 

A Well, I’m sure I would have said, as I did with the 

DrudgeRepoR,thatifIhearsomethingastowhyfromheror 

whomever, I wouid happily share it. 

Thegrandjuryhastokecpinmindthatthereis 

great curiosity when all of a sudden you have counsel and 

thcnncwcounsclishircdand summarily dismissed and rbae’s 

beennOCQtlV& with the client. So that is a curious 

circumstance that just sort of nod human beings would like 

to be satisfti in their curiosity. At Ieast I think so. 

Q What was Frank Carter’s tone in these 

conversations? 

A surprised Itwasunexpected. 

Q Did either you or him speculate in either of these 

2 callsastowhytbechangeofcounselmighthaveoa3xred? 

!3 A No. tiwedidn’tknow. ‘IbeonethingthatI 

!4 wascertainofandIthinkFrankCarterwasazrtainofis 

!5 thatcompetencewasnottheissuehere. Wedidundustand 

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that he was a Los Angeles malpractice lawyer. 

That was of some curiosity to us, that the family 

would hire a Los An&es malpractice lawyer, but tbz was on 

the other hand some reasonable unnfort that he had also hirec 

local counsel, Nathaniel Speights, whom I did not know, but 

Frank Carter knew him. 

Q Why was there concern about the fact that the 

lawyer hired was a malpractice attorney? 

A It’s a matter of general concern, counsel, if in 

fact you are a crimid lawyer involved in a criminal case 

and you are replaced by a lawyei who has no criminal 

experience. That just raises an interesting point of 

discussion. 

Q Did any of ti discussion between you two on thi 

issue of malpractice attorney center arouod speculation as to 

whzther there would be an allegation that Mr. Carter or 

anyoneelsehadactedimproperlyasan~~inthiscase? 

A The answer to that is no. The issue was simply -- 

Imean-ifIgothiredto&f~dsomebodythathadmurderec 

somebody, I mean, that would be a laughable matter in most 

legal circles around town because that is not what I do. On 

theotherhand,ifIhadbecnhiredonsomemergerand 

acquisition, that would be a logical matter and would not be 

the cause of much discussion. 

MR. EMMXX Tom, could I ask a question? 

Page 52 

MR. BlENFiRT: Absolutely. 

BY MR. EhiMICK: 

Q Mr. Jordan, I guess I’m a little confused about one 

thing. You have four or five times even this morning talked 

about the fact that Fred Carter is a criminal lawyer and that 

the referral was in connection with a criminal case and that 

you would not advise him in a criminal matter. 

When you made the referral of Monica Lewinsky, did 

you think that this was a referral in connection with a 

criminal case? 

A I did not, necessarily. I thought of it in terms 

of he was a trial attorney, but he does have both civil and 

criminal expertise. The use of the word criminal is 

overdone. WhatI’mreallytryingtosayisthisisanarea 

of the law, litigation, that I don’t do. 

Q Soyoudidrecognizethatitwasacivilcaseand 

thatevenatthatthetimeA I do know enough about the’law to be able to 

distinguish between civil and criminal offenses. 

MEL EMMICK: m ri@. 

BY MR. BDZNERT: 

Q Now, if we look at the next calIs, af& your 

eight-minute all with Mr. Carter - 

A whereare=? 

Q We’re at caII number 37, sir. 

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1 A Okay. 1 Q So that would have been the top of discussion IZ 

2 Q Do you see it? 2 that call. 

3 A Yes. 3 

4 Q At 5:22, there is a very brief call from your 4 

5 office to Bruce Lindsey, correct? 5 

6 A Right 6 

7 Q Then there is another very brief call immediately 7 

8 thereafter from your office to Cheryl Mills, correct? 8 

9 A Right. 9 

0 Q Is it accurate that these are just more attempts by 1 0 

I you to get someone at the White House? 1 1 

2 A It’s also accurate that nobody’s working. 1 2 

3 Q Nobody’s receiving your calls at that time. And 1 3 

4 ,@en at 5:55, there is a call from your office to Betty 1 4 

s Currie’s residence. Do you see that? 1 5 

6 A I do. 1 6 

7 Q Okay. And that, of course, another 24-second call ,l 7 

8 so do you believe it unlikely that you spoke to her then? 1 8 

9 A I think it’s highly unlikely. 1 9 

0 Q Why would you have been calling Betty Cunie at 2 10 

1 that time? 2 !I 

2 A For the same reason that I was calling everybody 2 .2 

3 else. That was news, a new development. It was something 2 3 

4 thatwasperplexing,didn’tlmderstandit,anditwasnews. 2 .4 

5 Q And the news, of course, was that a new attorney 2 .s 

A I think that that was the topic of discussion. 

Q All right. Well, let’s walk through as best we 

caqbecauseitwasaseven-minuteca&takeusthmugh~ 

conversation as best you can. You called, the Resident’s m 

the phone, what do you say? 

A “Mr. President, I just found out from Frank Caz 

that Monica Lewinsky has a new lawyer. The new lawyer s i 

man named Wiiam Ginsburg, who is a malpractice attorm) 

from Los Angeles who has represented the family. He toli 

FrankCartathathewastheaewlawyerandthathe’shired 

local counsel and I’ve talked to Frank Carter about it 

Interesting development.” 

Q Firstofall,didthePresidentappeartoaheady 

know this information? 

A Hedidnot. 

Q And upon what do you base that conclusion? 

A Ithinkifhehadknownifhewouldhavesaid, 

“Well, I already know that_” 

Q Well, you have described to us other conversation! 

with the President, correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And tbex have been other conversations where you 

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had been substituted in for Mr. Carter. 

A ThatiscOrreCt. 

MR. BIENERT: All right Now, if you look at the 

next call, and I’ll hand you what is marked as 5-VJ-7. 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. 5-VJ-7 

was marked for identification.) 

BY h4R. BIENERT: 

Q This is a presidential call log relating to the 

call at item 40, which is a 5:56 call betwzen yourself and 

President Clinton. Do you see that, sir? 

A Ido. 

Q And if we look at the call log, which is 5-VJ-7, in 

the right-hand column at the bottom it says “Talked. Okay. 

5:56 to 6:03.” Indicating a umveraaticm between yourself 

and the President, correct? 

A Right. 

Q DoyourecalltalkingtothePresidentinthelate 

afternoon of Martin Luther King Day? 

A Ido. 

Q Tell us about that conversation. 

A I called the President and I said I had just gotten 

information from Frank Carter that there’s a new counsel in 

representing Ms. Lewinsky. And that’s what that call was 

about. And my judgment is that that’s all that call was 

about. 

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didn’t expressly say it, right? 

A Ye& I think in this par&&r instance, counsel 

had k known that Monica tinsky had found new counsel, that 

he would have said, “I know that.” 

Q All right. What did the President say to you? 

A Hewassurprised,asIrecollect,aswewerean~ 

as I recollect the conversation, it took on the same 

character as my conversation with Frank Carter, that new 

development, understandable, it’s a family lawyer, family 

friend,thzreislocalcounse~thatdoesmakesenseif 

you’ve got Los Angeles couusel coruing into Washington, ym 

needlocalanJllSlifforrKl reaSmthanthesitUtionofpro 

hoc vice. And so it was a gcacral amversation about this 

development Period. 

Q Did the President indicate what, if anything, he 

intended to do as a result of this information7 

A Hedidnot. 

Q Did the President indicate what, if anything, 

members of his staff at ttr= White House would do? 

A He didnot. 

Q DidthePmsickntindicateinanywaythathewould 

discuss the matter with anyone other than yourself? 

A He did not. 

Q Did you indicate to the President that you would do 

anythingfurtherinrelationtothisMonicaLcwin*matter? 

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1 A No. Simply because there was nothing else for me 1 interested in this matter. He is the source of it coming to 

2 to do. And I have no recollection of saying, “Mr. President, 2 my attention in the first place. He is my friend. I had had 

3 I’m going to do this, that or the other,” because under the 3 lunch with Frank Carter, I had seen him earlier in the day. 

4 circumstancesIdon’t~owwhatelsetberewastobedone. I 4 Itwas--itwas,formeandIthinkforhim,intheordinary 

5 haddonemthefiiinstanccwhatIhadheenaskedtodo 5 course of things. 

6 and was successful at that. 6 BY MR. BIENERT: 

7 In the second instance, when requested by Monica 7 Q Now, one of the things you told us earlier was on 

8 Lewinsky for a mcommendation of counsel, I did that and, as 8 three occasions, it looks like, you tried to get bold of 

9 Itest&xihemhefore,actuallytookhertoFrankcarter’s 9 Monica Lewinsky and you did that -- and let me just check, i 

1 0 Offlce. 10 might only be two, but is it accurate to say, sir, that you 

1 1 Q Now, just by my watch, we’ve discussed this 5:56 11 sought out Monica Lewinsky that &y to get information? 

1 2 call for approximately three minutes and it was a 12 Correct? 

1 3 seven-minute call. Is it safe to say, sir, that there was 13 A About the Drudge Report? 

1 4 mom conversation between you and the President about this 14 Q Yes, sir. 

c 5 matterthanyoucanrecalltoday? 15 A AboutwhatwasintheDrudg.eReport,abouttbe 

1 6 A ItissafetosaythatwhzneverIhavea 16 Tripptecordings,whichwas,bemagain,bnmdaewnewstc 

1 7 conversation with the President, it is not a one-subject 17 me,andbrandnewnewstomeinthecontcxtthatIwas 

1 8 conversation. 18 helping this young woman get a job, I’d helped her get 

1 9 Q Well, did you tell us just a few minutes ago, 19 counsel, and in another totally different context, aceorcling 

21 0 though, that this was the topic of that conversation? 20 to the Drudge Report, she was having very reveabng 

2 1 A This was the topic and we discussed it. 21 conversations, that came as a bit of news to me. 

2 2 Q And so -- I’m sorry, I didn’t want to cut you off. 22 Q And as of this later time in the day, namely, as of 

2 3 A ‘Whetberornot- that was tk primary information 23 6:00 that day, you still hadn’t succeeded in talking with 

2 4 that I was relating to the President. It is my suspicion 24 Monica Lewinsky to get any information from her about the 

2 5 thatifitwereaseven-minutecall,ifitwasinfacta 25 allegations in the Drudge Report, correct? 

Page 58 Page 6C 

1 seven-minute caQ that we may have talked about other things 1 A Have not talked to her nor seen her since. 

2 like “What are you doing tonight, Mr. President?” Or “What 2 Q And you told us earlier that at your roughly 2:45 

3 are you doing tonight, Vernon?” “What are you doing 3 to 3:00 meeting with the President you didn’t succeed in 

4 tonlorrow?” 4 getting any information -- well, you didn’t ask him any 

5 I mean, I don’t know what it was about. But it was 5 information about the Drudge Report, correct? 

/ 6 in fact a conversation that I had relating what I had heard 6 A ThdS right. 

7 from Frank Carter, which I have testified to here before. 7 Q Now, in this later call, the seven-minute call with 

8 Q what was the President’s tone or demeanor during 8 him around 6:00 that night, did you SC& IUIY infmtb from 

, 9 this conversation? 9 the President at that time? 

l( D A It was not anything UnUsl&, it WaS not Shock, it 10 A I did not. 

1 1 was not great surprise, it was acceptance of a new set of 11 Q Why not? 

1: 2 facts. I don’t have any reeollectioa of any unusual response 12 A No need to. 

1: 3 to it, except it’s new, sort of surprising, different news. 13 Q Why not? 

1, 4 Beyond that, I don’t recall any response. 14 A Noneedto. 

1. 5 Q Did the President thank you for updating him? 15 Q Well, you still had curiosity to hear from Monica 

II 6 A The Presi&nt’s a gentkman and thank you is part 16 Lewinsky her version of the accuracy of the President, 

1’ 7 and parcel of his conversation. I’m sure that he did 17 correct? 

1: B Q Now,assoonasyougotoffthephonewiththe 18 A Keep in mind, counsel, that the President had not 

l! P President, you called Betty Currie as indicated -- 19 beentalkingtoLin&Tripp. MonicaLewinskyhadandthat’~ 

21 3 h4R LERNER: I have a couple of questions. 20 whatIwascuriousabout. Andsotherewasnoneedformeu 

2 1 BY MR. LERNEk 21 question the President about the Drudge Report. 

2: 2 Q WhydidyouthinktheResidentneededtoknowthat 22 Iwascuriousaboutthisyoungpersonwhohad 

2: 3 Frank Carter had been replaced? 23 cometomeforhelpandI~iafactbelpedandthenontbe 

2d 4 A Information. HeknewthatIhadgottenherajob, 24 otberhandthexewerethese,accosdingtotbehudgeReport, 

2: 5 be knew that I had gotten her a lawyer. Information. He was 25 mvclations through some tape to some pason IWU& Linda Tripp. 

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Q So is it accurate, then, sir, that the only aspect 

of tbc Drudge Report that you bad curiosity about was wbctkr 

or not tapes existed? 

A Well, that was -- that was the most - that was the 

new information for me in the Drudge Report. As to other 

things in the Drudge Report having to do with the 

allegations, as I have testified here before, I had satisfiec 

myself with that and there was no need for me to revisit 

that. 

Q Well, the Drudge Report expressly alleged a 

personal relationship, a sexual relationship, between the 

President and Monica Lewinsky, correct? 

A That is my understanding. 

Multi-Pagem Tuesday, June 9, 1998 

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1 to revisit that issue on January 19th. 

2 Q Okay. When you spoke to the President in that 

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Lewimky and the President to you? 

A Ifyou rememkr my testimony, about December 1% 

1 raised with Ms. Lewinsky in my office whether or not she 

had had sexual relationships with the President and you 

questioned me about that here my first visit and that 

evening, Friday evening, the 19th of December, I questioned 

the President. 

I said that in my public statement and I’ve said it 

here, both denied a sexual relationship and therefore cm the 

19thofJanuary,therewasnoneedformetogobackinto 

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that issue. 

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Q But my question is a little different, sir. You 

testified to us that around December 19th or thereabouts you 

asked questions to satisfy yourself. 

A Right. 

Q But you’ve also indicated to us that as of that 

time no one had ever expressly alleged, at least to your 

knowledge, a sexual rc?ationship bc%wun Monica Lcwinsky and 

the President, correct? 

A Okay. AlI right. 

Q SowhentbeDmdgeReportcameoutonDecember 

18th, it did expressly allege that, correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And that would be the first time, to your 

knowledge, that it was expressly alleged. Is that right? 

A I think so. 

Q So that would be new information in that report, 

correct? 

A Well, yes, it would be new information. It was the 

first time I had seen it in print, I guess. 

Q So then to be complete, it didn’t raise your 

curiosity to where you felt like you needed to revisit the 

question with the President. 

A That is correct. I felt no need to revisit what I 

bad satisfied myself about on December 19th. I felt no need 

roughly six p.m. call cm the phone, did the President appear 

to he knowledgeable about tbe allegations? In other words. 

what the Drudge Report alleged? 

A I have to assume that the President -- if Bruce 

Lindsey had give mc tbc Drudge Rcpon I have to assume that 

the Resident had seen the Drudge Report and it’s also clear 

tometbattherewassomediscussionofitinmyafternoon 

visit, but not - nothing more than an acknowledgment of is 

existence. 

Q Did the President make any statement to you abou 

the acmraey of any allegations in the Drudge Report? 

A Not that I have any reco&ction of. 

Q Didheeverduringthatconversationdenyt& 

accumcyofthea&gationsintheDrudgeReport? 

A TberewasnobasisforhimtodeayitbecauseIdid 

not pursue it. 

Q Did be ever on his own initiative deny to you when 

you spoke to him, either in person or on the phone, on 

January 19th the allegations in the Drudge Report? 

A Did not confii or deny it. It was not an issue. 

Q Now,ifwegotothenextcall,assoonasyougot 

off the phone with the Resident at 6:04, you called Betty 

Currie at her home. Do you see that? 

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Q Why did you calI Betty Currie immediately after 

getting off the phone with the President? 

A Because here again, I’m talking about the Drudge 

Report, primarily here I’m talking about the ftig of the 

lawyer. IhadcalledberearlierandIcaUedberagainand 

had a three-minute conversation witb her telling her that ber 

friendtowbomsbereferredme,MrmicaLewin&y,badanew 

lawyer. 

Q DidthePresidentsuggestinyourcaUwithhim 

that you get in touch with Betty Currie about the matter1 

A He did not. 

Q Did you inform the President or suggest to the 

President that you would do so? 

A No. 

Q Did the President indicate in your call with him 

that be bad bad any discussions witb Betty Cunie about be 

matter? 

A He did not. 

Q And as of that time, did you have any basis 

to know whether he did or did not discuss it with Betty 

Currie? 

A I have no basis for whether he did or did not. 

Q Okay. And then the fmal call, call 42, a 

6:26 pm. call from your off& to Stcpben Goodin’s nut&u at 

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the White House. Do you see that? 

A yes. 

Q Do you know who Stephen Goodin is? 

A Stephen Gcodin is the presidential scheduler or 

presidential travel guy. He’s no longer them. He’s a fine 

young man. 

Q Why did you call Mr. Goodin that evening? 

A I don’t know. 

Q Doyouthinkitmighthavebeenbecauseyouwen 

trying to find the President? 

A I don’t know. It could have been a scheduling 

matter. Idon’tknowwhyIwasUingMr.Goodin. Icould 

havebeenmtuminghiscaU. Ijustdon’tlmowwhywewere 

tallrinp. 

Q Wemtkmeveranyoccasiooswhmyou’retryingto 

fmd~presidentthatyouwwldcallMr.G~tosaeif 

you can get hold of the President? 

A No. Could be, but it’s mostly Nancy Hemreich 

MR. BIENERT: I’m going to hand you SVJ-8 and 

54~4. which are two more documents obtained from the Park 

Hyatt ‘l&se, sir, are also, just as the last two, a 

reservation sheet and a receipt attached thereto. 

(Grand Jury Exhibits No. 5VJ-8 

and No. 5-VJ-9 were marked for 

identification.) 

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Q And it reflects -- if you look at the reservation 

sheet, sir? 

A Mm-hmm. 

Q And I’ll note you’re getting your own calendar to 

that page. I’ll wait while you do that. This is January 

19th. 

A Right. 

Q All right. Now, there’s an 8:00 entry here that 

says Jordan. 

ARight. 

Q Two, which1 ClSSUfB~twO--yes,UndanUIllk 

of guests, and then there’s a receipt there showing what 

appears to he a food order on the left-hand side at 8:26 p.m. 

on 5-VP8 and then on the right-hand side, a payment with an 

Americaa Bxprcss card and thz nam Vanon Jordan at 9:48 pm. 

Do you see that, sir? 

A I do. 

Q Does that appear to be your signature? 

:0 A Yes, it is my signature. 0 12:00 for approximately two minutes and 48 seconds. Do you 

:1 Q Do you recall who you ate with that night? 1 seaztha~sir? 

:2 A I don’t have the slightest idea. It’s not on here. 2 A At12:04p.m_ontbe2Oth. 

:3 Q Andwhenyousaynotonhere,youmeanit’snoton 3 Q There’s a 12:Ol call and then a 12:04 call. And, 

:4 your calendar? 4 fti of all, if you want to consult your calendar, I’ll note 

15 A It’s not visible on my calendar. It’s a holiday, I 5 toyouthisappearstobeadaythatyouflewtoNewYodc. 

ti- Page’” Tuesday, June 9, 1998 ‘ 

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don’t know whom 1 had dinner with on the 19th. 

Q Does the fact that it‘s not visible on your 

calendar make you believe it’s something that was scheduled 

later rather than sooner? 

A Possible. 

Q Do you believe that the meeting would have had 

anything to do with the events relating to Monica Lewimky? 

A I don’t think so. It was a holiday. It could have 

been my wife. 

Q All right. So you just don’t recall one way or the 

other who you spoke with. 

A Idonot. Orhaddinnerwith. 

Q Conect. 

A I don’t know. 

MRBIENERT: All right. Okay. I think that’s all 

wehaveforJanuary19th. 

Now, sir, let me just get these documents 

out of the way. I’m going to grab these, stack them. 

We’re going to turn our attention to the next day, 

January 20th. 

Now, sir, placing before you what is marked as 

5-VJ-10, which is a copy of the Jam&y 20th phone summary 

sheet. 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. 5-VJ-lo 

was marked for identification.) 

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Q And you’ll note, sir, that them-are eight cabs 

that are identified here. 

A Mm-hmm. 

MR. BIENERT: First of all, there is a message and 

we’ll place in front of you two more exhibits which are 

5-VJ-11 and 5-VJ-12. 

(Grand Jury Exhibits No. 5-VJ-1 I 

and No. 5-VJ-12 were marked for 

identification.) 

BY MR. BIENJZRF 

Q Sir, 1’11 represent to you that 5-VJ-11 and 12 are 

documents obtained from your law firm, Akin Gump, that rtlea: 

to items 1 and 2. 5-vr-rr is a document showing that you got 

amessagetbatFrankCarterhadcaUedonthe20thofJauuary 

and 5-VJ-12 is a message that you got a call from Bob Bamctt 

on the 20th of January. 

We’ll start with Mr. Carter. You’ll note there’s a 

mcssagesomctimcthat&y,tbenyouspoktwithMr.cartart 

Diversified Reporting Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

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In Re: Grand Jury Proceedings Mull 

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1 A &I the 8:30 ShUttk 

2 Q Is that 8:30 at night? 

3 A 8:30 in the morning. 

4 Q Okay. So that’s my question to you, sir, in 

5 looking at your calendar, do you believe that that call at 

6 12:Ol p.m., because you’ll note that’s from one of your 

7 secretaries’ numbers, correct? 

8 A That’s right. 

9 Q All right. Do you believe that you would have been 

1 0 involved in that call? 

1 1 A I don’t know where I am I took the 8:30 shuttle, 

d ‘2 I got to New York at 9:30. At 11:15, I presided over th 

1 3 committee on directors at Bankers Trust Company. And at 

I 4 12:00, I had lunch on the third floor of Bankas Trust with 

1 5 Annette Gordon Reed. 

1 6 Q Okay. Were theze ever occasions when you would be 

1 7 in Nm York and you would have ymx offkc somebow patch you 

1 8 through to a call that would be made from - 

1 9 A Absolutely. 

2 10 Q Absolutely not? 

2 il A Absolutely. 

2 2 Q Oh, okay. 

2 !3 A Happens all the time. 

2 :4 Q All right. So it is possible, then, that even 

2 :5 though you were in New York, that call would have been frox 

Page 7( 

1 your offke to Mr. Carter and then you would have somehow 

2 been patched through? 

3 A That’s correct. 

4 Q What, if anything, do you believe -- whether it wa 

5 you or a staff member for you, what, if anything, do yol 

6 believe was discussed with Frank Carter’s office at around 

7 noon on the 20&r? Anything additional? 

8 A Yes. I don’t have any recollection of actuaBy 

9 having talked to Frank Carter. Actually, I don’t think I 

1 0 talked to Frank Carter any more after our conversation. 

1 1 After our last rxmversaticm on Monday, I don’t think I had 

1 2 direzt conversation with him. 

1 3 Q Okay. So you don’t believe that you would have 

1 4 spokenwithbim. An~asyousitherenow,canyoutb.i&of 

I 5 any information that you would have either given to Itim or 

1 6 learned from him after Martin Luther Ring Day? 

1 7 A Icannot. 

1 8 Q Okay. Now, let’s focus our attention, then, on the 

1 9 10:41 am. call from your Offlce an4 again, I believe that’s 

2 0 one of your assistants’ phone numbers -- 

2 1 A GailLaughlin. Right. 

2 2 Q - to Bob Bennett’s number. 

2 3 A Right. 

2 4 Q For three minutes and 48 seconds. Do you behew 

2 5 that that would have been a e.aU that you would have been 

LPagem Tuesday, June 9, 1998, 

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A I think that is possible. It may have been even a 

call between my counsel, Hun&y -- I don’t remember. M> 

best redlection is that it was a calI between Bennett and 

myself. And if you notice my cahdar on Wcdncrday, the 2 1 SC 

of January, Bob Bennett was in my offtce at 4:30 and it may 

have had something to do with seeing him that next afkrnoon. 

Q Okay. Now, let’s just bracket the time here. As 

ofthistime,onthe20th,youwereawareoftheDrudge 

Report but you were not yet aware of the more broad 

allegations that came out in, for example, The Washington 

Poq’wfiichdidn’tcomeoutuntilthenextday,tfie21sf 

correct? 

A Right 

Q Do you have any rec&ection of speaking with 

BobBennettabouttbeDrudgeI+xtoranytbingmIated 

tberetoonMouiea&vimkyptiortotheW&ingtonPost 

article coming out? 

A I do not. 

Q Wha< if anything -- if you did speak to 

Mr. Eennett on the 2Oth, what do you believe that 

conversation would have been about? 

A I don’t know. Bennett is the President’s lawyer. 

As I’ve said here before, we were in continuous conversation 

about my view that the case should have been set&d. I do 

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not rule out that that conversation of three minutes and 48 

secondswasaboutsomeaspbctoftheh4ollicaLewinskyars; 

but I just don’t know what it is. 

I don’t have any recollection of what it was about. 

Idoknowthattheendreaultoftbatwasthatbecametomy 

office at 4:30 the next Wednesday afternoon. 

Q Do you believe that Mr. Bennett’s coming to your 

office on the afternoon of the 2lst would have been ache&al 

sometimeduringthedayontbe2Oth? 

A Yes. That is possible because I did not - I did 

not leave New York until probably the 2:OO shuttle on 

Wednesday, the 21 st. 

MR. BIENERF AU right. NOW, if you look at the 

nextt.hreecaBs,6,7and8,therewerethreecallsma& 

from you at the St. Regis Hotel, at least from your room 

to-onetoBruceLindsey’snumberattkWbiteHouse,onc 

toBobBennett’snumberaudonetotkgeneraLWbiteHouse 

number. 

And what I’ll do is I’ll provide you with 5-VJ-13, 

which is a record from the St. Regis Hotel that reflects 

those three calls. 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. 5-VJ-13 

was marked for identification.) 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q Do you see that, sir? 

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Q Now, unfortunately, the phone log does not reflect 

tbetimeoftbeealls,eitberthetimeoftbedayorthe 

length of them, but it does reflect a dollar amount assessed 

for them. Do you see that? Do you see that, sir? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q AnddoyouseetbatastobotbtbeBrueeLindsey 

callandtheWbIteHousecall,therearefiveo:sixdollars 

assessed? 

A Yes. 

Q And if you skim over, it looks to be the minimal 

~tyMIgetcbargedforaphooecallfromtbeSt.Regis 

hotel? Do you see that? I’m just trying to bracket 

something that might help you tell us whether you thought the 

eallswereverysbortorwbethertbeywerelonger. 

A You how, I don’t read the bills, I pay tlxm. And 

so I don’t know what a $6.11 call is or a $5.31 call is. 1 

do know that it’s expensive to make calls from the St_ Regis 

Hotel. 

Q Well, then, using - whether this document helps 

you or not, just using your memory, do you recall speaking to 

Bruce Lindsey from the St Regis Hotel on approximately the 

2Otb7 

A I don’t recall it, but it’s highly possible. 

Q And would that have been related to the Drudge 

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Report, Monica Lewinsky, et cetera? 

A Or the additional issue and that is that thz media 

is about to go public with this allegation. 

Q And how would you have found -- well, firs of all, 

did you learn that from Bruce Lindsey or did you tell that to 

Bruce Lindsey? 

A I don’t know, but it’s -- I don’t know at what 

pointitheoomesapparentthatotherthantheDmclgeReport 

that the media in general is going with this story, but it 

eouldbavebeenabout-andItalkedtobimtotellbim 

ahout the. new lawyer, so it could have been about that. I 

don’t know what it was about. 

It is entirely possible that our conversation 

hadtodowiththefacttbatMs.Lewinskyhadanewlawyer, 

Ihadtriedinvainthe&ybeforetogethim,andso 

that’swhenInlusthavegottenhim. Idcm’tknowwhattime 

it was. 

We can malre some assumptions about time in ti 

I would have been in the Bankers Trust board meeting until 

about 4:00, so it was probably late in the afternoon when 

Iretumedto~botel. 

Q Anddoyoureeallspe&ngtoRobertBenneufrom 

the St. Regis Hotel around -- on that trip? 

A I am reminded that I probably did it. What it was 

about, I don’t know. It undoubtedly related to our meeting 

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Q Okay. And then similarly there was a call from 

your hotel room to the White HOLLE, 0You did tell 

us earlier that you do recall speaking to the President at 

some point while you were at the St Regis on that trip, 

ColTXt? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q All right. Now, first of all, based on what you 

said a few moments ago. is it accurate, then, that at some 

point after the Drudge Report came about but before the 

article in The Washington Post surf& on the 21% you war 

given information indicating to you that the story was about 

tobreakinmoremai &media? lhatis,othertha.nthe 

Drudge Report. 

A Wel&Iknewthenightofthe2&hthatthestory 

wasgoingtobreakwhenan~crcportawakemeupattbe 

StRegisat1:OOinthemomingandaskedmefora 

statement 

And if you reeall, the next morning on The Today 

Show, they said they called Vernon Jordan and Vernon Jo&i 

said, “I’m going back to sleep.” And that’s what I did. 

Q Okay. And that was going to be my question. 

Do you believe that you learned from a source other than that 

reporter, prior to that reporter’s calling you in the middle 

of the nighf that the allegation might become -- 

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A IthinkIwasawarethattheaewassomemomentuin 

building and where I got it from, I am not sum. 

I had spent the day or evening, had dinner at tbe 

Wall Street Journal, I’m a director of Dow Jones and I spent 

the next day, the morning of the 2 1 st at The Wall Street 

Journal, and I know a lot of journalists and I don’t knov 

whomItallcedto,butIthinkthattherewas~notioathat 

itwasintbeair. 

Q Now, let’s foeus on the conversation that you had 

with the President from the St. Regis Hotel. Was that after 

the eaII you had gotten from the reporter and then after you 

went to sleep and woke up again the next morning? 

A I talked to the President before I went to sleep. 

An4 as I have testified here before, that conversation with 

the President was about his concern that this story was 

breaking and the impact that it would have and the 

consequences that it would have. 

Hewasquiteconcemedtbatthisstorywasbreaking 

andconcernedaboutitbecauseinbisjudgmentthestorythat 

was breaking was not a true story. 

Q Okay. First of all, what did the President tell 

you about the impact that it would have? 

A He said he was aware of theseriousne& of it and 

serious, in his mind, as I reeollect it, beeti, according 

tohim,itwasnottrue. 

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Page 7i 

By the same token, there was no -- it was not the 

first time such an allegation had been made and he was 

concerned about the cumulative effect of that on him and 

expressed himself about it. I mean, he was obviously 

concemedthattbestorywasccmingou~astcrythatinh.is 

judgment was not true. 

Q Okay. Well, what, as best you can paraphrase for 

us, was the language he used? 

A Idon’t remember the language except I do nzmember 

his concern. What his specific language was I don’t know, 

but be was obviously comzancd and I was obviously concur4 

for him and with him about this kind of allegation. 

Q Now, when you testified to us a while back, you 

told us that you did recall a cmversation with the President 

from the St. Regis and I believe you testified that you 

thought it was in the morning upon waking up. 

Now that you’ve had a chance to see some records 

and reflect, do you believe that there were two 

ccmversaticms, one at night before you went to sleep and one 

io the morning, or one conversation? And, if so, when did 

that conversation occur? 

A ItestifiedthefirsttimeIwashzrethatthere 

were two conversations. There was a conversation before I 

got the conversation from NBC and before I went to sleep. 

And there was an early morning conversation and I testified 

Page 78 

in that conversation that I asked the President if he had 

toldtheF~Ladythatthisstorywasabouttobreakandhe 

said, no, she was asleep and be had not told her, but he had 

planned to tell her when she awakened 

Q And that was the conversation in the morning. 

A ThatwaS&? COIWCrSatiOniIItheIIIOmiIIg. 

Q Now, as to the two calls, the one the night before 

and the one that morning, do you recall which one was 

initiated by the President? 

A It’s my recoIlection that I called him and he 

called me back. 

Q This is in the morning, now? 

A ThiSiSthefirstCd. 

Q Okay. At night. 

A Before the call from NBC. And the early morning 

call from him came directly from the President 

Q All right. Now, you’ve already told us about the 

callinthe evening, correct? At least just a few momentl 

ago. Is that yes? 

A YeS. 

Q Is there anything else about that call that you 

remember other than what you’ve said to us today? 

A What I said to you before, which you have a record 

of, it was a conversation on his part of concern about the 

breaking of the story, about the falseness of it in his 

Pa+?_% ‘9 

1 judgment, and he just expressed himself. Obviously 

2 frustrated, obviously irritated, obviously bothered by it 

3 And the same thing was true of the next morning. 

4 Q when he called you the next morning, how did IX 

5 open up the conversation? 

6 A I don’t remember how he opened it up. I did 

7 tell him, I said, “You’m the second calI this morning, 

8 Mr.Resident. Thefirst~waSfrOmSmebodyfromhX 

9 and I told them I was going back to sleep, but I’m not 

0 going to tell you that” And we talked about it and I 

1 asked him if in fact the First Lady knew about it. 

2 I don’t know whether he had then seen The 

3 W&inj$onPostornot Idon’tknowtheanswertothat, 

4 buthewasstillasconcemedinthemomingashehad 

5 been earlier that night about the release of this false 

6 Story. 

7 Q When the. President called you in the morning, did 

8 he impart to you any new info~~&~~ that he hadn’t told you 

9 the night before? 

0 A No. 

1 BY MR. LERNER: 

2 Q 1 just want to understand, wkn you say he called 

3 you in the morning, does that mean the early morn& 

4 tkmiddleofthenight? Ordoesthatmeantbenextday? 

5 Because you just said “I’m not going to tell you, 

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Page 81 

Mr. President, I want to go back to sleep.” 

A ItwasaboutsixinthemomingandheknowsIwake 

up early and I’m betwixt and between about six. 

BY MR. BIENERI: 

Q So when he called you back, it wasn’t to say more 

news, it was more just to express his concern? 

A And his irritation and frustration, his - he was 

obviously upset about it. 

Q Whichcallwasit,orwasitbothcalls,wherehe 

indicated to you words to the effect that he was scmy you 

were involved in this matter? 

A I think probably both. 

Q TelIusasbestyoucanhowthatcameup. Whatwas 

the conversation and what was the segue into that? 

A lheseguewasthat”Afalsestoryhascomeout 

about this relationship, I’ve gotten you involved in this 

because you’re my friend and I’m sorry about it.” 

And I’m sure I said in &ect, “Mr. President, you 

don’t need to apologize, we’re friends and let’s get on with 

it.” 

Q Andyouthinkthathewouldhavema&asimilar 

typeapologyorlatlguageinbothofthosecalIs. 

A I&i&So. 

Q Allright AttheendoftlzeaIlinthemoming, 

other than him indicating that he would talk to the First 

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THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Jordan, you are still under 

oath. 

THE WITNESS: lbnk you, Forelady. 

THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Bienczt, we have a quorum and 

there are no unauthorized people in the grand jury room. 

MR. BlENERT: Tha& you, ma’am. 

Mr. Jordan, we’ve placed before you S-w-17. which 

isthephone summary for January 21s~ And you will note, 

sir, that there are 11 calls noted. 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. SVJ- 17 

was marked for identification.) 

BY h4R. BIENERT: 

Q Now, first of all, if you look at the fm call, 

which did not involve you, it was a 2O-minute call at 1: 16 

a.m. from President to Hetty Currie’s residence. Was it 

around1:00inthemomingtbatyougotthecallfromthe 

reporter? 

A About that. 

Q About that time? 

A Yes. 

Q And then it was later that same morning, around 

6:00, you believe, when you spoke to the President again, 

UXTeCt? 

A That's right. 

Q when you spoke to the President at around six in 

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Lady when she woke up, did he indicate to you that he would 

do anything else in relation to the matter? 

A No. 

Q Did you indicate to him that you would do anything 

else in the matter? 

A No. 

Q Did he ask you to do anything else? 

A No. 

Q Did you suggest to him that he do anything else? 

A No. 

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themomingonthe21~didheindicatetoyouthathehad i 

spoken to Betty Currie about the Monica Lewin&y matter? s 

A He did not. 

MR. BIENERT: Okay. That’s all that I have on the 

20th. 

MR. LERNF& Do ycu usually press through into 

lunch or do you take a second break? 

THE FOREPERSON: We’re going to need to take 

mothe? little break. 

MILLERNERZ Doyouwanttotakzthatnowbeforewe 

start with the 21st? 

THE FOREPERSON: Yes. That may be a good idea 

MR. BIENERT: And I think if we have a couple of 

Q when you spoke to the President about six in the 

morning, did he indicate to you that either he or Betty 

Currie or anyone else to his ,knowledge had heard from this 

reporter who called you the night before? 

A He did not 

Q Do you have any information one way or the other as 

to whether or not Betty Currie or President Clinton or anyone 

1 else got a call at around one in the morning from this 

2 reporter similar to the one you got? 

3 A I don’t know. 

4 Q All right. Now, the 21st, that’s also the day that 

5 you went and you met with Howard Gittis at Revlon, correct! 

6 A That’s correct 

7 Q And you’ve already deskbed to us the breakfast 

8 meeting that you had with him, right? 

9 A I have. 

.O Q Now, you made some phoqe calls from the conferena 

1 rooms at Revlon while you were them, correct? 

2 A Idid. 

3 Q And I will represent to you that if you look at 

4 calls2through6- 

5 A Ca&-- 

1 minuteqwemighthe.ahletoseewhereweare. Icantell 

2 you the goal is to finish by lunch. 

3 THE FOREPERSON: Yes So why don‘t we take tez 

4 minutes? 

5 (Witness excused Witness recalled.) 

Pagem Tuesday, June 9, 1998 

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Q If you look at the calls 2 through 6 - 

A Mm-hmm. 

Page 84 

Q These are phone calls that were made from a 

conference room at Revlon. 

A Right. 

Q The number indicated, to the numbers on the right. 

A Right. 

Q And, first of all, if you look, calls 2 through 5, 

ifyoulookatthemasfarasthetiming,tLre’san8:11 

call from the. Revlon cm&ma room to your law firm for 

about 30 seconds. 

A Right. 

Q Then about a minute later, there’s a call from that 

same number to V- for about six minutes. Do yoc 

see that? 

A Yes. 

Q Andthensixminuteslaterorattkcndofthat 

call, there’s another call from that umfexna room at 8:19 

a.m. to Cheryl Mills at the White House for ten minutes. And 

then approximately - after the ten-minute period, which 

would bring us up to 8:29,8:30, in that timeframe, a few 

minutes later there’s another call from tl& confma room 

to your law firm, Akio Gump, for 54 seconds. Do you see 

that? 

A I do. 

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1 Q Do you believe, sir, that you made all of those 

2 calls? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q All right. Now, obviously the first call was a 

5 short one from you to your law firm, correct? 

6 A Nobody was home. 

7 Q All right. Now, the 8:13 call to-r_, dc 

8 you mcognim that number? 

9 A That’s my home. 

0 Q Okay. So do you believe you just were talking to 

I your wife at home? 

2 A I believe that’s correct. 

3 Q Allright. And,now,the8:19call--bytheway, 

4 if we look at this, between 8:32 and then call number 6, 

5 whichisthe9:12a.m.calI? 

6 A h’b-hulm. 

7 Q There’s a gap of approximately 35 or 40 minutes. 

8 Do you see that, sir? 

9 A h&n-hmm. 

10 Q Do you believe that the most likely time that you 

!l would have actually sat down with Mr. Gittis to have your 

!2 breakfast would have been during that gap? 

!3 A I think that’s possible. 

!4 Q All right. Now, going back to call number 4, 

!5 the 8:19 call for ten minutes from Revlon’s conference 

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room to Cheryl MiIIs at the White House, what did you two 

discuss? 

A Well,IthinkIaskedhertoreadtomethe 

Washington Post story, to tell me what was going on. A 

Washington Post is hard to find in New York first thing in 

the morning. And to just get a sense of what was in the 

media, what was going cm at the White House, what was beiq 

said. And it’s my judgrneat that it primarily was about the 

article in thz newspaper that morning. 

Q What, if anything, did she tell you about what was 

going on at the White House? 

A Too early to know. 

Q All right. Anything else stand out in your mind 

about that conversation? 

A No. 

Q Okay. Now, you met with Mr. Gittis and you’ve 

already &scribed that meeting with us. And now at 9: 12 

am., you called your office and you had a seven-minute 

conversation there. Do you see that, sir? 

A I do. 

Q Do you recall who you would have spoken to in that 

conversation? 

A Undoubtedly it was one of my two persons in my 

office, Coleman or Gayle. 

Q All right. And do you believe that would have 

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been -- do you think any of that conversation would have been 

about the Monica Lewinsky matter? 

A I don’t think so. 

Q All right. Now, lmking at your calendar, after 

these calls, I’m just trying to see what time you would have 

come back to -- in fact, if we look at your calendar for 

Wednesday, January 21st, it indicates that at 10:30, car back 

to LaGuardia. So do you believe that you would have flown 

back to Washington some time around 10:30,1 l:OO? 

A No. I had a Dow Jones board meeting at 10:30, 

downtown Wash&ton at 100 Liberty Street and the hoard 

meetingMR. LERNER: Downtown New York City, sir? 

THE WITNESS: New York City. What did I say? 

MR-~ xtbinkyousaiddowntownWa&ingum. 

lHEwrn%ss: rmeantdowntownNewYork,downat 

the World Financial Center. Ihe Dow Jones board meeting 

lasts through lunch and immediately following lunch, if in 

fact I stayed for lunch, I clcln’t nmaniw, dcpcnding upon wb 

tbespeakerwas,tbenIlefttbe,boardmeeting,wentstraight 

to LaGuardia and took the next shuttle. 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q All right_ Now, if we look at column number 7, 

it’s a 2:48 pm. in the afternoon caIl from your phone to 

Clnyl Miils, white House Cwnscl’s Offxe. Do you = that? 

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A bk~-hmm. 

Q Do you believe that that would have heen you back 

in your office at tbat time? 

A I’mbackinmyofficeandIthinkthecallto 

Cberylh4ilIsisaeaUexplainingwhatgreet&mewhenIgot 

off the shuttle. 

Q which was -- I believe you’ve indicated a horde of 

reporters, is that fair to say? 

A A horde of curious, excited, rude reporters. 

Q All right. Did any reporters when you saw them 

thatdaytcllyouanymoreinfomu&nth8nyouhadalrcady 

known? Or that was already in the press? 

A They just asked questions. I said hello and I kept 

going. I did not stop, I did not give an interview. And I 

can’t remember any question that they would have asked, but 

theywere~shoutingquestions,“whatdidyoudofortbe 

President?” “Whathappened?” Dadadadadada. Andtbat 

is not a place to make sense, so I didn’t say anything. 

Q Now,duringtheeotiretimyouwcreinNewYorkon 

thatoceasion,namely,theafternoonandnightofthe2Oth 

throughthemorningofthe21stwhenyoucamebackto 

Washington,didyouspeaktoanyoueelseabouttheDnrdge 

Repo~Motlic%LewmskymaaeqotixZrthanwhatwhat’ve 

covered in your testimony thus far? 

A Not that I recol.lect. 

Page 85 - Page 88 

Diversified Reporting Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 
In Re: Grand Jury Procezdings Tucsdav. June 9. 1998 

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Q Now, was there anything else -- did you learn any 

further information from Cheryl MilIs in that 2:48 call Gth 

her? 

A No, I think I was doing most of the talking, 

tellingheraboutthefezxIingfrenzythatgreetedmewhenI 

got to LaGuardia. 

Q Okay. Did she impart any information to you ahout 

what,ifan@ng,theWhi~Housewasdoinginqonseto 

theCriSiS? 

A She did not. 

Q AU right. Now, if we look at call number 8 and 

call number 11, a 359 short caII to Frank Carter’s office, 

24 sxonds, and a 7:02 short call from your off& to Fmnk 

Car&r’s office for 36 seconds, do you believe that that 

would have been a couple of occasions that you’ve told us 

ahoutbeforewhereyou~IeavingmessagesforMr.Ca.rter 

but he. wasn’t retl?m& the calls? 

A ThatiSCORCCt. 

A JusttotelIhimwhatwashappeningtome. 

Q And what would be the what was happening? 

A Metbythepress,phoaecallsinthemiddleofthe 

nighf just an update as to-what was happening in my 

&C-CC. 

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facilitated a job for Monica Lewinsky, that I had found her a 

lawyer, that I had taken her’ to the lawyer, that there had 

been statements of no sexual relationships by the both o 

them. And that’s what I related. 

And it was during that time that Bob Bame.tt was in 

my off& that the President called Hundley’s office, rn> 

lawyer’s off%e, looking for Bob Bennett, his lawyer. And, 

as I testZied here before, he fmally got through to my 

office. We all talked to him on the speaker phone. 

I introduced him to Hundley, my counsel, and then 

he and Bob Bennett had their own private conversation. Bob 

B~JXXIX left_ By that t.&, the feeding frenzy had grown and 

there ~yere reporters outside my office to ask Bob Bennett the 

same question that you just asked me. 

Q WbenyousayBobBenne~andthePnzGdentspoke 

alone,werethcystiUontheqeakerwhemyoucouldbzar 

that conversation? 

Q And why were you calIing Mr. Carter on those 

occasions? 

A I could not hear the conversation. We were off th 

speaker and the President and Bob Bennett had some 

conversation. 

Q And do you know the content of that conversation? 

A I donot. 

Q When you spoke to Bob Bennett about the facts that 

you kzw, did you relate any facts to Mr. Bennett during that 

meeting on the 2 1 st that you have not related to us? 

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Q All right. And A didn’t St any infoxmation from 

hisendduringthism. 

A WedidnottaIk 

Q And did anyone athis of&~ impart anything to you 

that you recall? 

A No. 

Q Now, if we look at the call at 4:01, that’s a 

minute and S4-second calI to Nancy Hemreich’s numbq do 

you believe that you spoke to the President on that calI? 

A I don’t think I spoke to the President. No. 

Q Doyoubelievcyouwaetryingtogetaholdofthc 

President? 

A I think that’s possible, to tell him what greeted 

meattheairport. 

Q Now, if you look at your calendar for 4:30 on this 

date, at 4:30 p.m., there’s a notation there that says Bob 

l3erme& Do you stt that? 

A YCS. 

Q DidyoumeetwithBobE&mettonthe21st? 

A ImetwithBobBermettinmyofficeandwithmy 

counsel, Mr. Hum&y. 

Q Tell us abouf your discussion with Bob BenneK 

A Basically, he came as the President’s lawyer to ash 

what, if anythin& I knew about the circumstances. I 

explained to him as I have explained here that I had 

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A No. 

Q Do you believe that you more or_Iess related to him 

the facts that you have related to us? 

A Yes. 

Q Did h4r. Bennett impart to you or your attorq 

your presence any information that you -- any infomAon 

all? 

A No. 

Q Let’s focus on the portion of the meeting when 

Presidentwasonthespeakerphonewithyou,Mr.Bennett 

Mr. Huodlcy. Orkr than doing an introduction of Mr. Hundky 

over tl~ phone, what, if anything else, did the Resi& 

say? 

A He said, as I recollect, he said hello to 

Bill Hmdley, said he knew something about his reputation 

And I had kidded him in my part of the conversation 

“Mr. President, looks like I need a lawyer and he’s hr 

andsomylawyerandyourlawyerarebereandIthi&we 

in pretty good hands.” Something to that effect, 

Q Was there any discussion at that mezting oran; 

other, to your knowledge, in which there was an agllxmml 

sbinfopmationbcrwrmyouandlorMr.Huodlcymonebsd 

andBobBezmettandthePresidentorany&elseon&o 

hand? 

A No. 

f in 

I at 

the 

and 

Diversified Reportinn Senrices. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

Page 89 - Page 
1980 

In Re: Grand Jury Proceedings Mull 

Page 9? 

1 Q But you did impart what information you knew to Mr. 

2 Bennett at that time. 

3 A I did. 

4 MR. BENERT: Thiit’S d the questions I have on 

5 the 2Ist. 

6 If you’ll look at what we’re marking as 5-VJ-18, 

7 which relates to tbe 22nd -- actually, it relates lo three 

8 dates, the 22nd, the 23rd and the 29th. We’ll start with the 

9 22nd. 

1 0 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 5~~-18 

1 1 was marked for identification.) 

1 2 BY MR. BJENERT: 

1 3 Q Okay, sir. Placing 5-~~-18 in front of you, sir. 

1 4 And if you look at that, you’ll see it’s two pages long and 

1 5 the first page and about a third deals with the 22nd and 

1 6 thereare 16caUslisted. Doyouseethat? 

1 7 A hddm.UL 

1 8 Q Allright. L.et’sfocusontbatf~ Thefirst 

1 9 eall is between the President and Ms. Currie and actually it 

2 0 shows he’s unavailable and obviously that was not a call that 

2 1 involved you. Correct? 

2 2 A It was not. 

2 3 Q Allright. Now,ifwelookatthenextseriesof 

2 4 calls, there are calls 2,3,4 and 5, four calls from your 

2 5 office to Cheryl hfills’ numher, three very shoxt ones and 

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Page 94 

then a minute and 24--d call at 9:05 a_m. Do you xz 

that? 

A I do. 

Q Do you believe you made those calls? 

A I believe I made those calls. And it is clear to 

me that I did not connect even on the one-minute 24-second 

call. 

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Q And why is that clear to you? 

A Because the morning of the 22nd, I don’t remember 

having a direct conversation with Cheryl Mills on that 

morning, but I was trying to find her that morning to sort of 

find out what was going on and I don’t have any reeolleetion 

of having spoken with her. 

MR. BIENJZRT: Okay. Now, if you look at call 

number 6, 9:06, there is a one-minute and 48-seumd call froxx 

your numbcz to tbz White House gaiaal numtuz and I will show 

you a presidential call log that is 5-VJ-19 that reflects 

that at 9:07 there was a call, it looks like to you, and it 

says “Per Ms. Betty Currie, PREWS will call back.” And then 

it shows the time of 9:07. 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. 5-VJ-19 

was marked for identification.) 

BY MR. BIENERT: 

Q Did you get a call that morning from Ms. Cunie? 

A I just don’t remember a call from Ms. Currie that 

i- Pagem Tuesday, June 9,1998 

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Page 95 

morning. 

Q tilright. Do you remember, and I will note for 

you that based on the records we have, which certainly are 

not exhaustive from evexy phone that could be u&, but there 

is no record of a later call that day between you and the 

President that we have. Do you believe that you spoke to the 

President later on the 22nd? 

A I do not. 

Q Allright. Now,ifwefocusonthenextcall,ca.U 

number 7 at 952, another short call from you to Cheryl 

Mills’ number. Do you see that? 

A’ yes. 

Q AndtbentLreisacall,a24-secondcall,from 

your number to Frank Carter. 

At 12:32, there is a 12-scum4 very short, call 

from you to Cheryl Mills’ number. 

Thenat1:13,arKShercaufromy0utoch%y1 

Mills’ number, 48 seconds. Do you see that, sir? 

A I do. 

Q Do you believe that on these three occasions, on 

any of those calls to Cheryl Mills, do you believe you 

actually spoke to her? 

A Idonot. 

Q All right Now, with the one, two, three, four, 

five, six, seven calls that day to Ms. Mills’ number, ti 

Page 9c 

1 wereyoucalJingherulatday? 

2 A It’s early in the morning, a lot has happened. A 

3 lot is going to happen. I’m just trying to get an update of 

4 What’sgoingonintheWhiteHouseandshewasthemost 

5 reliable person to do that with. 

6 Q Okay. Was it your understanding that Ms. Mills 

I was aware or as up to date as anybody else on what was 

8 happening at the white House as a result of the Monica 

9 Lewinsky story? 

0 A Well, I thought if anybody would be up to date, 

1 she would be reasonably up to date, either by hearsay ar 

2 dinxtly. 

3 Q Allright. And,again,thzre’saveryshortcall 

4 to Frank Carter. Is that another attempt by you to make 

5 contact with Mr. Carter? 

6 A yes. 

I Q Andhedidnotrctm-nyourcall? 

8 A He didnot. 

9 Q And I’m assuming that you had not had any 

0 umvmsatimswithbilqslKzs&l umversati~flumthe 

1 daybefore~youtriedtogethimtothatpoint? 

2 A No. 

3 Q Allright. Andtbmat 1:4O,ifwelookatcalls 

4 11,12and13,thae~twoveryshortcallstoYwng& 

5 Rubicam. 

Page 93 - Page 96 

Diversified Reuortinn Services, Inc. (202) 296-2929 
1981 

II n Rc: Grand Jury Proceedings MUlti-Pi&” Tuesday, June 9. 19 

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Page 97 page 

1 ‘Iben there is a two-minute and 48--d call, call 1 of the nature of the relationship between the President and 

2 number 13, to Young and Rubicam. 2 Ms. Lewinsky? 

3 A Ri&t. 3 A Sk did not. 

4 Q Do you see that? 4 Q At any time in your conversations with hir. Lindsey 

5 A Yes. 5 wbetheritbeoathis&teoranyotba&te,didkindicate 

6 Q Do you believe that you spoke to someone in that 6 to you that he had any knowledge of the nature of the 

7 two-minute and 48-second call at 1:47? 7 relationship between the President and Ms. Lewinsky 

8 A Yes. I believe I spoke to Peter Gcorgesco on that 8 A He did not 

9 dateandIwascallhgPeterGeorgescototelIhimthatIwas 9 Q Did Mr. Lindsey evt?r at any time ever indicate 

o going to have a press conference at the Park Hyatt Hotel that .o anything to you about his view of the veracity of the 

1 afternoon and that I was going to say in that press L 1 allegations about the President &d Ms. Lewinsky? 

2 confau~cc that Young & Rubicam was m of companies that I 12 .A I don’t have any ~llection of a specific 

3 had sent Monica Lewinsky to in search of employment !3 conversation with him about her veracity. It is my judgme 

4 Q AndIhavetoadmifIdon’thavetherecordsin 4 that he shanzd my view that a sexual relationship had 

5 front of me. Do you know whetkr you made the press 5 takcnpl~butIdon’thavcanyspacific~cmlledionofa 

6 statanent-wasitonthc22ndorthc23rd? .6 conversation as to that particular aspect of this proble: 

7 A The22nd,IbdiCVC Thursday. 7 Q Allright. Dideither-andl&mcjustaddBob 

8 Q Okay. And, actually, we have your calendar so we 8 Bennett to that, did Robert Bennett, Cheryl MiIIs or Bruce 

9 can clxck. Yes. Tk 22nd was a Tbusday. You waz correct- .9 Lindsey ever indicate to you that hey had any discussions 

0 okay. Andyoudonzcallthattbe Satfmentwasmadeona 0 with tk President where they asked the Pnzsidcnt about the 

1 Thursday? That’s your best rtXoUection? Is that yes? 1 nature of his relationship with’Ms. LeGnsky or when 

2 A Hard to forget that. 12 volunteered any information about that? 

3 Q&the answer is yes. :3 A No. 

4 A Yes. ,4 Q All right. Thats ’ all the questions I have on the 

5 Q Ali right. Then again there’s a short call at 2:50 15 22nd. Now we’ll look at the 23rd. lherre is a oneminute L 

Page 98 

1 pm. to Robert Bennett. Is it accurate, sir, that the press 

2 statement was around 3:00? 

3 A I think that’s about right, 3:00, 3:IS. 

Q Q And I think you testified to us earlier that this 

S call to Bennett you believe would have been advising him or 

5 his office that you were going to make the statement? 

7 A That's right. 

B Q IS there anything additional about that 

9 conversation that you recall? 

1 A No. 

I Q Andthen~haveat4:14and4:19,afteryourpnzss 

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1 24-second call - 

2 It looks like a New York number, actually, it’s i 

3 Revlon number. If we look at lo:24 a.m. on tbz 23rd, a cal 

4 from your o&c to -or a minute and 24 seconds. 

5 Do you see that? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Do you recognize that number? 

8 A I do not. 

9 Q Do you believe it’s like at Revlon? 

0 A I do recogSe the -exchange, but I do not 

1 recognize the~extension. On the next call calI number 

-~- 

l! 

1 

! statemmt, tbenz’s a one-minute and 36-second call to Cbexyl 12 2, m is Howard Gittis’ extension. 

b Mills at the White House, or at least her number. 13 Q Okay. Now, you already would have spoken to Mr. 

I A hdm-hmm. 14 Gittis on about the 21st. 

i Q And a two-minute and 24-second call from Bruce 15 A Right. 

i Lindsey at the White House. Do you see that? 16 Q Do you believe that you spoke to him again on tl 

1 A I do. 17 23rd? 

I Q Tell us about those calls. 18 A I don’t recollect. I’m not sure that I did on the 

F A I’m not sure I talked to C-1. I’m fairly 19 23rd. 

1 ceztainItalkedtoBrucetosayIbadapressconf&enceand 20 Q You could have been leaving a message? 

thisiswhatIsaid,Idon’tknowwhetbayousawitornot, 21 A It could have been. 

butIfeltlikeIhadtospeakandId.id. 22 Q Okay. And then at 1:41 p.m. on that day, there’s 

Q Allright. Atanytime,eitiinthiscallorany 23 four-minute call to Burson MzusteLler,, Do yc 

other conversation you’ve had with Ckryl Mills, did she ever 24 see that? 

indicate to you tbat Sk had any knowkd@ or understanding 25 A I do. 

Diversified Re~~rtinn Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

Page 97 - Page 100 
1982 

In Re: G-rand JILW Proceedims 

Page 10 

1 Q And what, if anything, did that call relate to? 

2 A That call was probably to Edward Ney, who preceded 

3 by one person Peter Gemgesco as a long-time CEO of Young ( 

4 Rubicam. He is now chaixman of the advisory committe!e of 

5 Burson Marstellm. He’s a very old and dear friend of mine, 

6 going back to 1970 when I beaded the United Negro College 

7 Fund. And I think that that was a conversation telling Ed 

8 Ney what had taken place betweea me and Peter Georgesco. 

9 Q And Burson Marsteller, just so we can all recall - 

.O A Is a subsidiary of Young & Rubicam. 

1 Q And is it accurate that your understanding is that 

2 subsequent to your making a calI in around mid December 01: 

.3 behalf of Ms. Lewiosky to Pctu Georgcsco at Young & Rubicam 

4 that Ms. Lewinsky interviewed at Burson Marsteller? 

5 A That’s xi& I’m aware of that 

6 Q Andsothiswasanadvisement-isitaccurate 

7 that this would have been advisory call to Burson Marsteller 

8 about some of the details similar to the other calls you had 

9 related to us? 

!O A No. This was a specific call, as I recollect, to 

11 Edward Ney, the former &airman of Young & Rubicam, the 

.2 current chairman of the advisory committee of Burson 

3 Marsteller, and a very dear friend of mine. 

4 Q And would it have related to the Monica Lewinslq 

5 matter? 

Multi-Pagem Tuesday, June 9, 1998 

II 

Page 103 

1 A JUROR: Excuse me. My paper says- and it 

2 looks like the other Revlon exchanges arem 

%, 3 MR. LERNJZR: The cab are --it iS cOmt here. 

4 ‘Ihefmcallwas~andtbesecondczll~ 

5 A JUROR: And the Revlon conference room is alsc 

6= 

7 MR BIENERT: Okay. Well, actually - 

8 THE mss: The Revlon number iso 

9 A JUROR: And not10 THE WITNESS: Not m 

11 MR. LERNER: Maybe in tbe Akin Gump production 

I 12 there’s a typo, although --. 

13 MR. BIENERT: Well, we will state, though, and it’s 

14 avaygoodobsavation,justtomaketber#mdclear,tbe 

I5 actualdocMlenttbatmgotviasubpaDafmmAkinGumpshows 

16 the number, the IO:24 call as 0 

17 BY MR. BDSNERT: 

18 Q Let me ask you, do you recognize a-exchange? 

1 19 A I do not recogniz awxchange. 

. 20 Q h tight of the timing of the cd in relation to 

. d 11 the -call thereafter, do you believe it was likely a call 

L 

. 12 to Revlon or do you have - 

. 1 !3 A My judgment is that was a call to Revlon. 

, 4 14 h3R BlENERT: Any further questions on that? 

d 4 15 (No mponsek) 

Page 102 

1 A It would have related to the Monica Ixwinsky matter 

2 intbecontextthatIhadexplainedtoPetcrGeorgescothat1 

3 was going to say in the prss confaum that Young & Rubicam 

4 was one of the places and I felt some responsibility to Ed 

5 Ney to say the same thing to him. 

6 BY MR. LERNER: 

7 Q Just so the record is clear, the IO:24 a.m. call, 

8 you said you e emfix but not thcll)! 

9 A Right 

0 Q What is-? 

1 A That is the Revlon - 

2 Q It’s a Revlon number? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Who else at Revlon besides Howard Gittis might you 

5 be talking to that morning? 

6 A I could have been talking to the chairman, but 

7 that’s not his extension. I could have been talking to the 

B general counsel, but I don’t how what his extension is. I 

P could have been talking to Jamie, who is his secretary. 1 

D could bavc barn talking to tbc guxzal counsel of Mc~ndrews & 

1 Forbes. I could have been talking to somebody at any 

2 position at Revlon. I just do not have any recollecticm of 

3 this call or what it was about. 

4 BY MR. BIENERT: 

5 Q All right. Now, looking at - 

! Page 101 

1 BY MR. BIENERT: 

2 Q Alhight. Now,thelastcallonthesheet, 

3 January 2!%h, so we’re about six days later, there’s a cal 

4 from you at the St. Regis Hotel to Cheryl Mills’ extension at 

5 theWhiteHouse. Wedonothavealengthoftimeforthecal 

6 oranactualtimeofdayofthecall,sinceitwasf&nth 

7 St. Regis and I’ll show you that document. 

8 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 5-VJ-20 

9 was marked for identification.) 

1 0 BY MR. BIBNERT: 

1 1 Q Do you know why you would have been calling 

1 2 Ms.Millson-Iguesswbatwouldbavebeea-whatdayof 

1 3 theweek1 4 A Thursday, the 29th. 

1 5 Q Yes, sir. 

1 6 A I do not. 

) 1 7 Q And here’s 5-VJ-20, which is the bill from the 

1 8 st.Rcgisshowingthatcall. wastknzanyncwinformation 

[ 1 9 orevennhtedtoMonicahwinskyt.hatyoucanthinkof 

2 0 bttweentbt23rdofJsnuaryaadtbt29thtbat~tprompt 

2 1 you to call Ms. Mills? 

2 2 A No. 

2 3 Q Andcanyouthinkofanythingthatskmightha\ I 

2 

2 

4 impartcdtoyouthatwouldbeofanewordiRamtnatme? 

5 A No. 

Page 101 -Page 104 

Diversified Reuortinn Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 
1983 

In Re: Grand Jurv Procecdinas Multi-Page’M 

Page lo! 

Tuesday, June 9, 199’ 8 

Page 10 

1 A Because this thing had blown up into such a state 

2 that regular conversations with the President had sort oj 

3 been suspended. 

4 Q Okay. So did there come a point in time when 

5 because of the nature of things in the Monica allegation 

6 story or events that you discontinued speaking to the 

7 President about anything related to Monica Lewinsky? 

8 A I think that we both were advised by counsel that 

9 that was not the thing to do and so we did not talk for a 

0 long time. 

1 As I testified here before, 1‘did see him at the 

2 MCI Center, I went over ‘0 his box and we exchanged greeting 

3 and we have subsapent tkzcto had convasations. but wc have 

4 not had a conversation since the morning of the 2 1 st about 

5 the Monica Lewinsky case. 

6 Q All right. So just to make sure we’re very clear 

7 anthat,fnnntbemorningoftheZlstthroughtbep~t,is 

8 it accurate that you have had no discussions at all with 

9 President Clinton about tk Monica Lcwinsky case or anything 

o related to it? 

1 A Or the Paula Jones case. Nothing. 

2 Q Have you had any -- and by that we mean direct 

3 conversations. 

4 A yes. 

5 Q Have you passed on any information to your 

1 MR BIENERT: All right. And then I believe we’re 

2 up to the last phone log sket, which is 5-VJ-21, which 

3 contains two pages and it contains calls from three dates. 

4 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. 5-VJ-21 

5 was marked for identification.) 

6 BY MR. BIFNERT: 

7 Q The fmt one, and let’s go up to the calendar just 

8 sowecankeepdaysoftbxeek-- 

9 A WhereareWnOW? 

0 Q We’re into February. It looks like that frost -- 

1 A My calendar ends at January 3 1 st, February 1 st. 

2 Q I apologize. Let me do this. Let me give you a 

3 copyofwhatIwilljusthandwriteonthebottom,we’~call 

4 it -- what’s the number of YOU calendar, sir? If you’ll 

s look at that one? 

6 A VJ-2. 

7 MR. BIENER-C AU right. I’m hand writing VJGA, 

8 which will be a supplement to the one that you have, sir, and 

9 1’11 go abead and give you it for February, the week of 

o February 8th, so you can consult it. 

1 (Grand Jury Exhibit No. VJ-2A 

2 was marked for identification.) 

3 BY MR. BIENERT: 

4 Q There arc two calls that we’ve identified here to 

5 ask about and that is at 12: 11 p.m. on February 8 -- and what 

Page 106 

1 dayoftheweekisthe8th,sir? 

2 A It’s on Monday. February 8th is on Sunday. 

3 Q All right. At 12:ll p.m., there is a very short, 

4 38-second call from your residcoce number to tbc White House 

5 and then at 12:56 p.m., there’s a two-minute and one-second 

6 call from your residence to the White House general operator 

7 number. 

6 Q Do you see that? 

9 A I do. 

D Q In light of the fact that it was on a Sunday, do 

1 you believe that would have been calls that you would have 

2 made? Or do you know?. 

3 A From my house, it also could have been a call that 

4 my wife made. I do not know. 

5 Q LookingatthesecaUsandwhentheyweremade,is 

6 tke anything that comes to mind that you might believe is 

7 relevant to this matter, namely, Monica Lzwinsky? 

B A No. 

3 Q It could have been you, but you don’t know. 

3 A I do not know. 

1 Q And if it was you, it could have been about Monica 

z Lewin&y, but you don’t know. 

1 A On February 8th, I doubt that I would have been 

I calling the White House about Monica Lzwinsky. 

5 Q And why is that? 

Page 108 

1 knowledge through other persons such as your attorney or 

2 peoplelikeBruceLindseytotheI+sidentabouttheMonica 

3 Lewinsky matter? 

4 A I have not. 

5 Q Have you obtained any information to you since the 

5 21st of Janrlary that was provided by the President that was 

7 told to be given to you? 

9 A I have not. 

> Q All right. L.&s go through these just last few 

) calls and then we’ll w-rap up. If you look at the 17th, 

I February 17th, there are one, two, three, four calls from the 

z general Akin Gump number,~ to Betty Currie’s 

3 residence. Do you see that? 

t A Mm-hmm. 

5 Q And only one of those shows a duration and that’s a 

i 13-second, very short, call. Do you believe that you would 

1 havebammakinganycallsfmmthcgenaalAkinGumpnumbcr 

i to Ms. Cunie’s residence? 

t A I don’t know why I would have. There is -- at some 

1 point in this period where her mother is ill and her mother 

I subsequently passed, but I don’t have any reason to have 

! talkedtoMs.Ctiebecausethesamethingappliedto 

1 Ms. Currie that applied to the President as relates to the 

I Monica Lewinsky circumstance. 

i Q How does someone make a call from -change 

Page 105 - Page 108 
1984 

In Re: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-PaneTM Tuesday. June 9.1998 

Page 10 

1 at Akin Gump? Doyouknou? 

2 A How does someone -- 

3 Q To your knowledge, and you might not know tk 

4 answer -- 

5 A That is the general number tf Akin, Gump, Strauss. 

6 Hauer & Feld. That is not my extension. 

7 Q Right. And I guess to your knowledge, where would 

8 a phone be located at the law firm that when you picked it up 

9 and dialed it you were actually dZ.ing from the geoaal4000 

10 number? 

I1 A I think but I do not know, that it would be tl~ 

I2 receptionist area. 

13 Q And that’s not a phone that you would use? You 

14 wouldn’t go to the receptionist’s area and make a call? 

I5 A No. 

I6 Q Doyouknowwhetherornotthereceptionistisable 

17 to patch calls through for you or for other attorneys or 

18 persons at Akin Gump from that~umber? 

!9 A That is correct. She can. 

!O Q Would you ever request that she do that? 

!l A No. 

!2 Q Do you ever have any recollection of having a 

!3 receptionist or anyone patch you through to Betty Currie’s 

!4 residence on that-umber? 

!5 A No. 

Page 11C 

1 Q And, now, similarly, if we look at -- well, let’s 

2 backup. Aroundtbetimeofthe17th,canyouthinkof 

3 anyone else at Akin Gump that to your knowledge might want to 

4 get a hold of Betty Cunie around the timeframe of February 

5 17thtotalktoher? 

6 A No,Idon’t. Iwasnotintownonthe 17th Iwas 

7 tryingtoseeifIwasintown. IarxivedatTeterborough 

8 I’m trying to figure out where from, on Washington’s 

9 birthday. That’s Valentine’s Day, I think that weekend I was 

o in the Dominican Republic. 

1 Q Meaning that you don’t believe you were even in 

2 townonthe 17th? 

3 A That is correct. 

4 Q All right. What about on the 18th? Do you believe 

5 youwereintownonthe 18th? 

6 A Gnthe18th,IhadaDowJonesboardmeetinginNew 

7 York. Gnthe17th,IwasinNewYorkforaBankersTrust 

8 board meeting. 

9 Q And, I’m sorry, I apologize, on the 18th, did you 

0 say whether you were in town? 

1 A Gnthe l&h,IwasinNewYorkCityforaDowJones 

2 board meeting. I had a client meeting at 8:30. 

3 Q In New York? 

4 A In New York at the Rockefeller Club, Rockefeller 

5 Gmter,andthenIhadaDowJonesboardmeetingaudtkxiI 

9 

1 returned to Washington that day. 

2 Q And if you look at the last calls on that exhibit 

3 in front of you, 5-VJ-21, under the entry of 2/l 8, there’ 

4 one, two, three four calls, all a minute or two apart fror 

5 tbc Akin Gump poaal numbu to Monica Lcwinsky’s rsidcncc 

6 Is it accurate then that based on what your calendar 

7 reflects, you don’t believe you were even at Akin Gurnp that 

8 day? 

9 A Basedonmycalendar,IwasattheDowJonesboard 

0 mc&gandtbcscnumbasarr:fromtk~lnumba.gt 

1 Akin Gump and I don’t know anything about them. 

2 Q DoyouknowifthegeneralAkinGumpnumberhasa 

3 fax machine where things can be faxed to it? 

4 A ThereisthegeneralAkinGumpfaxnumber.~ 

5 notit. ButIdon’tknowwhatthegeneralAkinGumpfax 

6 nurnberis. Ilmowwhatmyownfaxnumberisinmyoffice, 

7 whichisdiffenaltfromthegcnaalAkinGumpfiunu&er. 

8 Q Can you think of anyone who around that timeframe, 

9 the lSth, to your knowledge might have been -- at Akin Gum1 

D might have been trying to get in contact with Monica 

1 Lewinsky? 

2 A No. 

3 Q Do you lmow of any items that anyone might have 

I beentryingtofaxtoMonicaI.ewinskyaroundthe 18thof 

5 February? 

b 

1 

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Page 11; 

I A I do not. 

1 MR. BENERT: m right. That’s aII the questions 

s that I have on the 18th which concludes the phone logs. 

1 MR. LERNER: Could I just go back for a second and 

j askonequickquestion? Thel9th-letmefmdthe5 MR. BIENERT: This is of January? 

1 MR. LERNER: Yes. The&s a presidential call log 

I for this also. This is 5-VJ-3. And I’m looking at call 

1 number 40 and also 5-VJ-7. which is a presidential call log 

I reflecting a call at 5:56. 

BY MR. LERNER: 

Q My question regards the number that the Presidetr 

: called. If you’ll notice, he called4 A Yes. 

5 Q what number iS that? 

5 A That’s my private number. 

7 Q I thought you testified previously that only your 

3 wife has that line. 

3 A Thats ’ correct. 

1 Q How did the President get it? 

I A My wife probably gave it to him. 

1 Q W&n would that have happened? 

1 A Idon’tknow. Theonlyperscmstbat’severca&~ 

1 mconthatliaehavecallcdmbecausemywifcgavetbantbe 

i numbu. Now, be may have c&d tbc bousc and said, ‘where’s 

Page 111 

Diversified Reportinn Scrviccs. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

Page 109 - Pane 112 
11 n Re: Grand Jurv Proccedin~s 

Page 11: 

1 Vernon?” Or whatever. 

2 Q Is it possible that you had told him at some point 

3 this day or the day before -- 

4 A You rememb I told you once before hem, I didn’t 

5 even know what 50 - 54 -- 5 - what my private number wa5 

6 andIstil.ldon’t. Idonowrecognizeit. 

7 MR. LERNER: Okay. 

8 BY MR. BIENERT: 

9 Q Now, your first grand jury appearance before this 

o grand jury was on March 3rd and I’ll just represent that from 

1 the record Does that more or less jive with your memory? 

2 A Yes. I’ve been here so much, I don’t remember. 

3 Q All right Have you at any time since you have 

4 appeared on March 3rd, have you communicated with anyone 

5 othcrthanyouratWneysoryourwifeaboutthecontmtof 

6 yourappearaaces,wLtLritbetlm2questionsthatwen 

7 &&tbedocumeatsprcsentedcaanyanswc?s you gave? 

8 A I don’t think so, but I’m not sum. 

9 Q Of course I’m excluding statements at least 

0 following the appearances hat at the courthouse. Have yoy 

1 otherthanany statements you’ve made, I guess, on the 

2 co~stcpsafteryourappcarancts, have you spoken witl 

3 any lqxmers about the content of your testimony? 

4 A No. 

s Q And jus$ to make sure we’re specific, is there 

Page 114 

1 anyone at the White House that you believe you have spoken 

2 with about the coDtent of either questions ask& documents 

3 show-nor answcrsgivcn? 

0 A No. 

5 Q To your knowledge, has your attorney spoken witi 

5 anyone at the White House about the substance of your grand 

7 jury testimony? 

3 A Not to my kwwledge. 

3 Q what about - has your attorney spoken with anyone 

) outside of the White House such as attorneys for the 

I PresidentorotherpersonsactingwiththePrcsideutaspart 

2 of this investigation? 

) A Well, I think I talked to my attorney about that. 

I I don’t know. 

; Q I’m asking to your howledge. 

i A Yes. I don’t know. 

? h4R. BIENERT: I think that’s d I have. If 

I Mr.Emmick- 

) MR. EMMICKz No follow-up. 

) MR. BIENERT: All,right. If you could step out for 

I asecondandwecouldjust,talkamongstourselvestoseif 

! any grand jurors haye any follow-up and we’ll either bt done 

I orbedoneveryshortly. 

I THE~~INESS: Okay. Thank you. 

, (Witness excused. ,.Witness +ed.) 

i 

1 

1 

1 

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Page 115 

1 ME FOREPERSON: h4r. Jordan, you’re still under 

2 oath 

3 THE wTrNEss: Thank you. 

4 .uR. BIENERT: A couple of questions from the grand 

5 jurors. 

6 BY MR. BIENERT: 

7 Q On the 22nd, and weve ’ put that back in front of 

8 you so you could have it if you need it, you indicated that 

9 you called Peter Georgesco to let him know about your 

0 upcoming statement that afternoon, correct? 

1 A Ye& 

2 Q And I think you ;?so indicated you think you 

3 mentioned that to Bob Bennett prior to your statement that 

4 day, wrrect? 

5 A Mmtid what to Bob Bcmxztt? 

6 Q That you were going to make $statcment at about 

7 3:oo thatafterncoll. 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Was there anybody else that you contacted to let 

0 know you wtm going to make such a statement? 

I A Itoldmywife. IthinkItoldmykids. Ihave 

2 four kids. I told several of my partners, primarily Bob 

3 Strauss,thechairmanofourlawf~becauseIthoughttbey 

4 had a right to know. Beyond that, I told two very good 

5 fricndsinNewYork,bothofwhomarelawyersandwe~i 

Page 116 

1 lot about each other and we told them. 

2 J4R. BIENJXT okay. Aq’ follow-up on that mat&z? 

3 (No response.) 

4 BY h4R. BIENERT: 

5 Q Okay. The second question, you menticued that tk 

6 DrudgeReport,whichwasonorabouttheISth,wasthefrrs 

7 time that you had seen the allegations of the relationship 

B behven tbz Pnsident and Monica in print. Had you prior to 

P that time heard of any alkgations, whether it be rumor, 

3 direct statements, gossip or whatever? 

I A I had not. 

2 MR. BENERT: Any follow-up on that area? 

3 A JUROR: I have one other question. 

4 MR. BIENERT: Yes, ma’am. 

5 AJUROk ~the’I%h,lookingatthiswholeseries 

5 of phone calls wbzre you’re clearly trying to-reach other 

? peopk to inform them that Frank Carter is no longer 

1 rcprscatingMonicaLcwinsky,waspertofthcrraoonwhythat 

3 news&sohot,suchama&rofimpcrt,becausetherewas 

1 speculation about Ms. Lewinsky talking to the press, 

I Ms. hwimky wopqatitlg with the OfIke of Independent 

! C~uns4anyother’~l AndI’mnot~@outa 

1 sp&fic phon+l, but j&t generally. 

I THE WITNESS: No. It was just conveying the nem 

i that Ms. Lewinsky had a new lawyer. period 

Page 113 -Page 116 

Divexsifid Reporting Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 
1986 

Page 11’ 

1 A JUROR: Thank you. 

2 THE wl~NEss: You’re welcome. 

3 MR. BIEFZZRT: Okay. Are there any other questions 

4 of Mr. Jordan? 

5 (No response.) 

6 MR. BIENERT: AU right. Seeing no hands, with 

7 Madam Foreperson’s permission, Mr. Jordan is excusec 

8 THE wrr~~~: Counsel, do you want to tell me what 

9 this means? I mean, am you going to ask me back? 

0 MR. BIENERT: This means that we have - 

1 THE FOREPERSON: We hope not to ask you back. 

.2 MR. BIENJZRT: Comet This means -- 

3 THE VTXNESS: I’IJ tell you something, Forelady, I 

4 hope not to come back 

.5 MR. BIENERT: And I think I can safely say that w 

,6 havcnointentiontocallyoubackand~tricdtomakecv~ 

7 effort to do it so we would not call you back. 

.8 Obviously, I will give the caveat that we cannot 

.9 preclude the fact that something could arise in the futun 

!O that we would believe it appropriate te re-subpoena you, but 

!l I can tell you that is not the plan, there is no intention tc 

!2 do that, and that’s where we stand. 

!3 THE FOREPERSON: I want to say something and its ’

!4 really kind of a joke, and I know it’s going a record, but 

!5 if ever any of us need a job, can we feel free to come to 

Page 111 

1 you? 

2 THE WITNESS: Madam Forelady, my door swings back 

3 on welcome hinges to anybody in this grand jury. 

4 It’s very interesting. I yesterday gave the 

5 commencement address at New York Law School, its 106th 

6 commencement, and it was great fun and, Madam Forelady, 

7 I made a great speech. It was so exciting to be there, 

8 reminiscing about what I did 38 years ago. I must tell you 

9 thecontra.stofyesterdayandtodayismindbogglio&tosay 

o the least. But I had a very good time yesterday with tha 

I graduating class and not so good a time today with you, but 

2 I’m glad that it’s all over. Thank you. 

3 MR. BIENERT: Okay, sir. Thank you. 

4 (The witness was excused.) 

5 (Whereupon, at 12:43 pm., the taking of testimony 

6 inthepresenceofafullquonunoftheGrandJurywas 

7 concluded.) 

8 l **** 

In Re: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Paem Tuesdav. June 9.1998 

I 

1 

1 

I 

I 

1 

1 

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Diversified Reportinn Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

Page 117 -Page 118 
1987 

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7:02 AM Belly Currie Monica Lewinskys ’ pager, “Please call Kay 

at home at 8:00 this morning” 

2 Betty Currie Monica Lewinskys ’ pager, “Please call 

Kay” 

8:08 AM 

3 8:29 AM Monica Lewinskys ’ residence, - 

m 

0:ll 

4 8:33 AM Betty Currie Monica Lewinskys ’ pager, “Please call Kay 

at home” 

5 8:37 AM Monica Lewinskys ’ pager, “Please call Kay 

at home. Its ’ a social call. Thank you.” 

Betty Currie 

6 8:41 AM Betty Currie Monica Lewinskys ’ pager, “Kay is at 

home. Please call.” 

7 8:43 AM President Clinton I :OO 

8 8~44 AM Monica Lewinskys ’ pager, “Please call 

Kate re: family emergency” 

Betty Currie 

9 8:50 AM President Clinton I :OO 

10 8:5l AM Betty Currie Monica Lewinskys ’ pager, “Msg. from 

Kay. Please call, have good netis.” 

Vernon Jordans ’ residence, - I1 8:55 AM President Clinton IO:00 

IO:29 AM Vernon Jordans ’ oftice, 3:42 
13 IO:33 AM Vernon Jordans ’ oftice,- Monica Lewinskys ’ pager, “Please call Mr. 

Jordan at m 

14 lo:35 AM Vernon Jordans ’ oflice,- Nancy llernreich, White House,-- I:12 

I5 10:44AM Vernon Jordans ’ office *z Erskink Bowles, White House,- I:00 

I6 IO:53 AM Vernon Jordans ’ office,- Frank Carters ’ office,- 0:36 

I7 IO:58 AM President Clinton Vernon Jordans ’ office,- I too 

I8 11:04AM Vernon Jordans ’ office,- Bruce Lindsey, White House,- 0:24 

am 

I9 ll:l6AM Vernon Jordan Monica Lewinskys ’ pager, “Please call Mr. 0:36 

Jordan at m 

20 11:l?AM Vernon Jordans ’ office,- Bruce Lindsey, White House, - I :36 

21 l2:3l PM Vernon Jordans ’ mobile phone, m White tlouse,m 3:OO 

22 I:43 PM President Clinton Betty Curries ’ residence,; 2:oo 

23 2129 PM Vernon Jordans ’ mobile phone, m White House- 2:oo 

24 2:46 PM Frank Carter Monica Lewinskys ’ pager “Please call 

Frank Carter at-- ‘

25 4:5l P.M. Vernon Jordans ’ office - Betty Curries ’ residence, s I :42 

26 4:53 P.M. Vernon Jordans ’ office -- Frank Carters ’ residence, v 0:24 

27 4154 P.M. Vernon Jordans ’ oftice,’ Frank Carters ’ office,- 4:oo 

L 
28 4158 PM Vernon Jordans ’ office, m Bruce Lindsey, White House,- O:l2 

u 

29 4:59 PM Vernon Jordans ’ office, m Cheryl Mills, Wh_i!e House Counsels ’ 0:42 

office, w 

30 5:00 PM Vernon Jordans ’ oftice,- Bruce Lindsey, White House, 

PDCI 

m 0:lB 

31 5:00 PM Vernon Jordans ’ office,’ ff, White House Counsel, w 0:24 

32 5:05 PM Vernon Jordans ’ office ,B Bg Lindsey, White House,- 0:06 

33 5:05 PM Vernon Jordans ’ offtce, Bruce Lindsey, White House; w 0:lB 

m 

34 505 PM Vernon Jordans ’ oftice, White 1 louse,- 2:12 

35 5:09 PM Vernon Jordans ’ office, w Cheryl Mills, White House Counsels ’ I :06 

office, - 

36 5:14 PM Vernon Jordans ’ office, - Frank Carters ’ office, 8:24 

37 5122 PM Vernon Jordans ’ office, - I) Bruce Lindsey, White House, -p- 0:06 

38 5122 PM Vernon Jordans ’ offtce, 

- Cheryl Mills, White House Counsels ’ 0:18 

office, 0 

39 5:55 PM Vernon Jordans ’ offtce, Betty Curries ’ residence, - 0:24 

40 5:56 PM President Clinton Vernon Jordans ’ offtce, - 7:oo - 

41 6:04 PM Vernon Jordans ’ office, - Ijetty Curries ’ residence, p 3:oo - 
42 6:26 PM Vernon Jordans ’ office, v Stephen Goodin, White House,- 0:42 E 

is 
1993 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

PRESIDENTIAL CALL LOG 

1178-DC-23 

. . . . . . , I I 

OUT 8:55 A” 9:05 MR. VERNON E: JORDAN, JR. TLKD-OK"8:56 A.M. 

RES: WASHINGTON, D.C. 
1994 

: GOVERNMENT cl f 

ExHlBK 

i 

nu=~ 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

PRESIDENTiAL CALL LOG 

JANUARY 29th 98 

.19 

N&ME ACTION 

m . r- . --- - 1. 

. 

. I 

O- 8:43 AM 8:43 MRS. BETTY U. CURRIE TLKD-OK 8:43 A.M. . 

RES: ARLINGTON, VA. 

MRS. BFlTY U. CURRIE TLKD-OK 8:50 A.M. 

RES: ARLINGTON, VA. 

. 

. 

REDACTED 
VAFILE 

ACC-CO 1 LAST-NAME 1 FIAST-NAME IlNl (ENTRY-CISCHEDU~ENTRY.DA 1 VISITEE JMEETINO.A 1 ~E~UESTOR I 

llJl6907 jl4:46 }01/19/99 ~MURAAY IWW 

,, 08 

hlURRAY 

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(08/16/36l14:44 

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1996 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 

PRESIDENTIAL CALL LOG 

JANUARY 19th ,lS 98 

TIME 

PLACED 1 DISC 

NAME ’ 

’ ACTION 

OUT 10:55 AM HR. VERNON E.'JORDAN, JR. -'T LKD-OK . lo:58 A.K. 

OFC: YASHINGTON, D.C. 

1178-DC-4 

. . 

OVT’ aa MR. VERNON E. JORDAN, JR. TLKD-OK 5:56 P.H. 

OFC: UASHINGTON, D.C. 

,& 5:54 PM 6:03 
1997 

942-DC-00000322 

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8:17 AM Vernon Jordan’s oftice, 

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9:05 AM C

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14 250 PM Vernon Jordan’s office ,----_ ’ R

15 4:14 PM Vernon Jordan’s office, - C

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16 4:19 PM Vernon Jordan’s office, _ B

I 1 IO:24 AM Vernon Jordan’s office,- 

2 IO:26 AM Vernon Jordan’s office,_ H

3 1:41 PM Vernon Jordan’s office,- B

Vernon Jordan, St. Regis Hotel, New York, NY C
HR. VERNON E. JORDAN , JR. 

OFC: WASHINGTON, D.C. 

PER: MS. BETTY w

PRESUS WILL CAL

9:07 A.M. 
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W29 -0aRs occrgwy Tax 4.DD 

s 636.55 

Direct BILL S 636.55 

It is our pleasure to have been of service and we look forward to your return 

1065-Dc-oooooo12 


2010