4423 

OK-302 (Rev. 8-19-W-11 

- 1 - 

- 

OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

Date of transcription 3/16/s!? 

NATALIE ROSE UNGVARI, white female, date of birth 

SSAN 

Ltelephone 

was contacted at her apartment by Special Agent 

Criminal Investigator _ and Los 

County Sheriff's Deputy (First Name Unknown) BOOG. 

Angeles 

Also present 

with UNGVARI in her apartment was a white male individual who 

UNGVARI stated was her boyfriend. The male individual refused to 

identify himself. 

UNGVARI was served, by SA -aat her apartment 

doorway at 8:45 pm in the presence of the other above referenced 

individuals, with a Grand Jury subpoena for the United States 

District Court, District of Columbia, for an appearance date of 

March 19, 1998. UNGVARI stated she was willing to be interviewed 

regarding the MONICA LEWINSKY matter, but requested the interview 

be conducted on the sidewalk in front of her apartment building 

rather than in her apartment. DEPUTY BOOG then departed the 

scene, after which UNGVARI voluntarily provided the following 

information while standing in front of her apartment building in 

the presence of her boyfriend: 

UNGVARI confirmed she was acquainted with MONICA 

LEWINSKY and advised the most recent contact she had with 

LEWINSKY occurred the day after New Years day of 1998, when 

LEWINSKY telephonically contacted her. UNGVARI further stated 

LEWINSKY had told her that LEWINSKY and PRESIDENT CLINTON were 

friends. At that point in the interview, UNGVAI$I stated she did 

not wish to answer any additional questions and: as a result, the 

interview was terminated. 

Investigation on 3/10/98 at LOS ANGELES, CA File I 29D-OIC-LR-35063 

by 

-. 

Dare dictated 3/16/98 
4424 
4425 

OK-302 (Rev. R-19-94) 

- 1 - 

OFFICE OF THE NDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

NATALIE ROSE UN 

3/19/98 

Date of rransmprion 

Account Number 

1041 North For 

Angeles Califo 

cellular telephone number 

was apprised of the official identity of the interviewers and the 

nature of the-interview. 

of her attorney, 

UNGVARI was interviewed in the presence 

Counsel, 

DERRICK COCCIA, at the Office of the Independent 

1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, Washington, DC 20004. Also 

present was Associate Independent Counsel MARY ANNE WIRTH. 

UNGVARI provided the following information: 

UNGVARI has known MONICA LEWINSKY since the ninth 

grade. UNGVARI considers LEWINSKY to be her best friend, though 

the two have grown apart during the past year. UNGVARI and 

LEWINSKY stayed in touch with each other through college. 

UNGVARI graduated from San Francisco State University with a 

degree in cinema. 

UNGVARI visited LEWINSKY once when LEWINSKY was in 

college in Portland, Oregon. UNGVARI met LEWINKSY's friend 

KATHERINE ALLDAY in Oregon. 

with ALLDAY. 

UNGVARI does not have a relationship 

UNGVARI recalls talking to LEWINSKY on the telephone 

and LEWINSKY mentioned meeting CLINTON. LEWINSKY said she made 

eye contact with CLINTON and CLINTON took notice of her. UNGVARI 

recalls LEWINSKY saying CLINTON once complimented her on 

something she wore. 

UNGVARI knew that LEWINSKY had a crush on CLINTON. 

UNGVARI thought it was silly that LEWINSKY had a crush on 

CLINTON. LEWINSKY talked about CLINTON a lot. 

Invesrigarion on 3/18/98 al Washington, DC Fjle# 29D-OIC-LR-35063 
4426 

OIC-302a (Rev. 8-f%%) 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

NATALIE ROSE UNFv%RI 3/18/98 2 

Continuation of OIC-302 of . On . Page 

UNGVARI does not recall any of LEWINSKY's boyfriends 

from college. 

UNGVARI visited LEWINSKY twice while LEWINSKY was 

working in Washington, DC. The first visit occurred in October 

of 1995 when LEWINSKY was an intern at the White House. UNGVARI 

stayed with LEWINSKY at LEWINSKY's apartment. LEWINSKY lived 

with her mother and brother at the time. UNGVARI visited 

LEWINSKY at work and met some of her co-workers. UNGVARI does 

not remember any names of those co-workers. 

On UNGVARI's birthday, November 23, 1995, LEWINSKY 

telephoned and advised she had kissed CLINTON. UNGVARI 

understood the kiss to be more than a friendly one. UNGVARI 

advised that LEWINSKY would not have bothered to tell her if the 

kiss was just a friendly one. UNGVARI recalls LEWINSKY saying 

the kiss happened in or near CLINTON's office or an office within 

an office. LEWINSKY told UNGVARI not to tell anyone, but UNGVARI 

told her then-boyfriend, ROGER CROOKS and her sister, EVELYN 

UNGVARI. UNGVARI believed LEWINSKY since, to the best of 

UNGVARI's knowledge, LEWINSKY had never lied to UNGVARI about 

anything. 

UNGVARI recalls LEWINSKY mentioning something about 

giving CLINTON a piece of pizza, but UNGVARI is unsure if that 

was the same incident as the first kiss or not. 

Soon after Novetier of 1995, LEWINSKY advised she had 

given CLINTON oral sex. LEWINSKY advised that she took off her 

clothes during this encounter. LEWINSKY mentioned that the oral 

sex took place in an office or a study. LEWINSKY mentioned that 

there was a sink in the rocm. LEWINSKY mentioned that CLINTON 

, did not ejaculate. LEWINSKY expressed disappointment that 

CLINTON never ejaculated, but she never mentioned why CLINTON did 

not ejaculate. Sometime Later in LEWINSKY's relationship with 

CLINTON, CLINTON did ejacclate and LEWINSKY expressed excitement 

over this fact to UNGVARI. 

UNGVARI was shocked when LEWINSKY informed her of this 

incident_ UNGVARI advised that LEWINSKY would be happy when she 

got to see CLINTON and dep_- cussed and unhappy when she did not. 

LEWINSKY advised that CLIXTON told her early in their 
4427 

OIC-302a <Rc\. 8-19-94) 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

NATALIE ROSE UNGVARI 3/18/98 3 

Continuation of OIC-302 of . On . Page 

relationship that he could not perform oral sex on her and they 

could not have intercourse because he loved his family. LEWINSKY 

would perform oral sex on CLINTON and CLINTON would fondle 

LEWINSKY's breasts. 

UNGVARI advised the sexual relationship between CLINTON 

and LEWINSKY lasted from the end of 1995 until sometime in 1997. 

UNGVARI projected a disinterest in hearing about the relationship 

because it was "crazy" and because UNGVARI thought LEWINSKY was 

playing with fire. UNGVARI advised that LEWINSKY's relationship 

with men appeared to follow the same pattern. LEWINSKY 

repeatedly became involved with men who were either married or, 

in some other way, unobtainable. 

LEWINSKY told her mother, MARCIA LEWIS, about her 

relationship with CLINTON. LEWINSKY told CATHERINE ALLDAY, NEYSA 

ERBLAND, ASHLEY RAINES, ANDY BLEILER and BLEILER's wife about her 

relationship with CLINTON. LEWINSKY's meetings with CLINTON were 

inconsistent. Sometimes LEWINSKY met with CLINTON twice a week, 

sometimes once in two months. 

LEWINSKY's interaction with CLINTON was orchestrated 

through BETTY CURRIE. LEWINSKY expressed fondness towards 

CURRIE. During the last year, however, LEWINSKY expressed 

frustration in CURRIE, as CURRIE became more reluctant to let the 

LEWINSKY meet with CLINTON. 

LEWINSKY advised she usually had physical contact with 

CLINTON on weekends and at night during the week. LEWINSKY 

advised that BETTY CURRIE would call LEWINSKY to arrange 

LEWINSKY's meetings with CLINTON. LEWINSKY never mentioned if 

CURRIE knew about the physical relationship between CLINTON and 

LEWINSKY. 

LEWINSKY mentioned NELL and UNGVARI thinks NELL worked 

in the White House cafeteria. NELL would give LEWINSKY M&M'S_ 

LEWINSKY did not mention if she had a sexual relationship with 

NELL. LEWINSKY never mentioned if NELL knew about LEWINSKY's 

physical relationship with CLINTON. 

LEWINSKY received psychiatric therapy, beginning her 

first year of college. LEWINSKY's therapist is IRENE KASORLA in 

Los Angeles. When LEWINSKY moved to Washington, DC, she 
4428 

OIC-XEa (Rev. 8-19-94) 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

NATALIE ROSE UNGVARI 3/18/98 4 

Connruation of OIC-302 of 

continued her therapy via telephone. 

. On . Page 

In March of 1996, LEWINSKY paid for UNGVARI to fly to 

Washington, DC. UNGVARI stayed with LEWINSKY and MARCIA LEWIS. 

UNGVARI visited LEWINSKY at the White House on the Friday of this 

visit. UNGVARI met a lot of LEWINSKY's co-workers, including 

BETTY CURRIE, ASHLEY RAINES, and NELL. UNGVARI went on a tour of 

the White House. Sometime later, LEWINSKY asked UNGVARI about 

the tour and indicated the room off to the right of the Oval 

Office is where LEWINSKY and CLINTON would engage in oral sex. 

On the Sunday of this same weekend, LEWINSKY took 

UNGVARI to the White House to gather something LEWINSKY had left 

on her desk. During this visit, UNGVARI met some more people, 

including some Secret Service officers. UNGVARI recalls HILLARY 

and CHELSEA CLINTON going to the White House theater to watch a 

movie, but UNGVARI was looking the other way when they passed, so 

she missed them. 

UNGVARI advised that she was waiting in a hallway for 

LEWINSKY when she overheard LEWINSKY talking to someone. At that 

. time, CLINTON was exiting a restroom. LEWINSKY introduced 

UNGVARI as her friend from California. CLINTON said that he had 

heard about UNGVARI and mentioned something about UNGVARI being 

from Los Angeles or San Francisco. CLINTON mentioned that he 

was recently in San Francisco and that he had laryngitis. 

UNGVARI and LEWINSKY were excited about meeting CLINTON. 

UNGVARI advised she felt like CLINTON was "checking her 

out." CLINTON was staring at UNGVARI's chest the entire time he 

was talking to UNGVARI. UNGVARI later told LEWINSKY of her 

impression, but LEWINSKY did not respond. 

LEWINSKY told UNGVARI that her position at the White 

House was being eliminated and she was being transferred. 

LEWINSKY thought other women at the White House did not like her. 

LEWINSKY'S contact with CLINTON was less frequent when LEWINSKY 

moved to the Pentagon. 

LEWINSKY played an audio tape of a message CLINTON left 

on LEWINSKY's answering machine. 

the call, 

CLINTON was not whispering in 

but his voice was lowered. UNGVARI recognized 

CLINTON's voice. The message was something to the effect of "hi, 
4429 

OK-302a (Rev. 8-19-941 

29D-OIC- LR-35063 

NATALIE ROSE UNGVX?I 3/18/98 5 

Continuation of OIC-302 of 

I guess you're not home, gcod-bye." 

. 

. On , Page 

LEWINSKY's contact with CLIXTON was less frequent after 

she left employ at the Whize House. CLINTON tried to end the 

relationship on more than cne occasion. LEWINSKY said that on 

one occasion, she began crying after CLINTON told her the 

relationship was going to end. CLINTON told LEWINSKY that he 

loved his family, so he could not continue the relationship. 

On some occasions, CLINTON would call LEWINSKY after 

midnight. CLINTON wanted LZWINSKY to talk "dirty" to him. 

LEWINSKY could hear CLINTOK masturbating as she talked. UNGVARI 

believes LEWINSKY and CLINTZN engaged in phone-sex about five 

times. 

LEWINSKY bought CXNTON at least two ties. CLINTON 

wore one tie while he signed the Telecom Bill. LEWINSKY gave 

UNGVARI a picture of CLINTCN wearing a tie LEWINSKY had given 

him. LEWINSKY also bought CLINTON an antique. 

LEWINSKY a broach, a hat pin, 

CLINTON gave 

and a cigar in plastic wrapping. 

Creep," 

LEWINSKY referred to CLINTON as "the Creep", "the Big 

"the Big He," and "him." 

In October of 1997, 

York. 

LEWINSKY mentioned moving to New 

LEWINKSY did not want anything to do with politics. 

LEWINSKY mentioned meeting 31LL RICHARDSON in her apartment at 

the Watergate. RICHARDSON offered LEWINSKY a job, but she did 

not want to work in that part of New York, nor did she want to 

work in politics. LEWINSKY never mentioned VERNON JORDAN's name 

to UNGVARI. 

LEWINSKY spent Thanksgiving of 1997 in Los Angeles. 

UNGVARI met with LEWINSKY &zing a part of that holiday. 

LEWINSKY talked about New York. 

UNGVARI spoke with LEWINSKY once in December of 1997. 

LEWINSKY mentioned moving 

depressed. 

to New York. LEWINSKY seemed 

LTSGVARI on January 2, 1998. UNGVARI 

so the conversation with LEWINSKY was 

seemed happy. The discussion focused 

LEWINSKY called 

had a guest at her house, 

not a long one. LEWINSKY 
4430 

OK-302a (Rev. 8-19-941 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

NATALIE ROSE UNGVARI 3/18/98 6 

Continuation of OIC-302 of on Page _ 

more on New Year's Eve than anything else. LEWINSKY mentioned 

meeting a guy from New York in a bar. LEWINSKY said she kissed 

the guy and the two planned to go out again. 

the President, 

UNGVARI brought up 

and LEWINSKY may have expressed rejection. 

After the story broke in January, UNGVARI left a 

message with LEWINSKY's father expressing her love for MONICA 

LEWINSKY. LEWINSKY's father did not know about the sexual 

relationship between LEWINSKY and CLINTON. 

The day BILL GINSBURG was on numerous television talk 

shows, GINSBURG called UNGVARI and left a message on her 

answering machine. GINSBURG's message was that he hoped he had 

NATALIE UNGVARI's phone and he left his pager number for her to 

page him. UNGVARI did not page him. The messages before and 

after GINSBURG's were from reporters advising UNGVARI that 

GINSBURG had given her the "green light" to talk with them. 

UNGVARI did not want to speak to the media as she did 

not want the attention and she did not have anything to say that 

would make LEWINSKY look better. 
4431 

UYIIEO STATES DISTRICT COURT 

mR me DI?aRIcT OF co‘vmI* 

GWD JURY PRocEeDIHGS : 

for the District Of COlumkh 

3rd l Canstitutlon. W.W. 

Yarhinqton, D.C. 20001 

Multi-Page‘“” March 19,1998 

the testinony of NATALIE ROSE "W"ARI w., t.kan in 

Chhe &x*rcnce of . full quorum of Grand Jury 97-2, ,,qMnalad 

on sept-r 19. 1997, conmneinq .t 9:SB a.m., bctore: 

SOLocy3li YISENBERC 

luRY AIM YIRT” 

As~oci~tc Independent Counsel 

Office of fndepcndcnt Counsel 

1001 Penn¶ylvmi~ *"enYe, ".Y. 

su1re 490 mrth 

Washlnqton, D.C. 20004 

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PROCEEDINGS 

Whereupon, 

NATALIE ROSE UNGVARI 

wasoLledasawihKssand,havingbeenfirstdulyswomby 

th: Forepuson of the Grand Jury, was examixd and test&d 

as folIows: 

EXAMINATION 

BY MR. WISEWBERG: 

Q Would you state your name for the record, please? 

A Natalie Rose Ungvari. 

Q Could you spell your last name? 

A Sure.’ U-n-g-v-a-r-i. 

Q And how do you pronounce? 

A thqkW’i. 

Q Ungvari? 

A Yes. 

Q Ms.Ungvari,mynameisSolWiiberg,tbisismy 

colleague, Mary Anne Wirth, and we’re attorneys with the 

Off& of Independent Counsel. ‘I&se are the grand jurors 

and this is the grand jury reporter. 

This is a federal grand jury, and let me stop 

myself and reconfum with the foreperson that we have a 

quorum and that there are no unauthorized persons in the 

grand jury room. 

IHE FOREPERSON: We do have a quorum and there are 

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Q Okay. I’m going to read you now your - what w 

call the rights and responsibilities of grand jury witnesses, 

andIwillaskyouto-- occasionally I will ask wbt3be.r or 

notyouun~wfratI’veread,ard1’~askyoutogive 

usa”Ycs”ar”No”or”Maybe”rather~ashakeoftbeheac 

or an “Uh-uh” or “Uh-huh” - 

A Okay. * 

Q -sothatitcanbepickeduponthexecord. Is 

that okay? 

A Yeah--yes. 

Q All right. You may refuse to answer any question 

if a truthful answer to that question would tend to 

incriminate you. You understand that? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q That’s the privilege against self-incrimination. I 

take it somebody’s explained that to you? 

A Yes, I understand. 

Q Anything you do say may be used against you by the 

grand jury or in a later legal proceeding. Do you understand 

that? 

A Yes. 

Q If you have retained cou_nsel, he or she is not 

allowed in the grand jury roam with you, but the g.tand jurors 

will permit you a reasonable opportunity to step outside the 

5 grand jury room and consult with counsel if you desire. Do 

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no persons unauthorized in this room. 

MR. WISENESERG: Okay. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q This is a federal grand jury impaneled by the 

United States District Court for the District of Columbi 

conducting an investigation of possible violations of federal 

criminal law involving possible pejuty, possible obstruction 

of justice, and possible subornation of perjury. 

Do you understand? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. And what I’m going to do now is fead to you 

from a portion of the court order from the United States 

Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit 

authorizing this portion of our investigation. 

-“The Independent Counsel shall have jurisdiction 

and authority to investigate! to the maximum extent authorized 

by the Independent Counsel Reauthorization Act of 1994 

whethx Monica Lewinsky or others suborned perjury, 

obstructed justice, intimidated witnesses, or othenvise 

violated federal law, other than a Class B or Class C 

misdemeanor or infraction, in dealing with witnesses, 

potential witnesseq attorneys or others a_mceming the civil 

case, Jones v. Clinton.” 

Did you understand what I just read to you? 

A Yes. 
4432 

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you understand that? 

A Yes. 

Q You are represented by counsel here today; is thal 

correct? 

A Ye% 

Q Tell us who that is. 

A Ralph Caccia. 

Q Okay. There are three categories of witnesses a% 

come before a grand jury, witnesses, subjects, and targets, 

and the informal dcfmition of a target would be somebody who 

the prosecutor and the grand jury believe it’s more than 

likely that person will be indicted. Do you understand that 

definition? 

A Yes. 

Q You’re not a target. Do you understand that? 

A Yes. 

Q A subject would be a person who’s not in a target 

status, but there are some questions about their activity, 

and the grand jury wants to get f&6er answers about that. 

Do you understand that? 

A Yeah-yes. 

Q You understand you’re not a subject either under 

that definition. 

A I understand. 

Q And then there’s a witness, just somebody there are 

Multi-PagP March 19, I998 

s 

5 Page 7 

1 There are certain well-recognized exceptions to that, but 

2 other than those exczptions, it means we cannot go blab about 

t 3 what you testify to here today, or even that you were here. 

4 Do you understand that? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q You, on the other hand, are not bound by that oati 

7 of secrecy. You can tell nobody or you can go tell the 

0 8 world. You understand that? 

9 A Yes. 

1 0 Q That’s a matter between you and your attorney. Do 

1 1 you understand? 

1 2 A Yes. 

1 3 Q So let me give you an example of some of the 

1 4 exceptiq_ns to grand jut-y secrecy that we’re generally under. 

1 5 The prosecutor, as you can tell. FBI agents -- 

1 6 certain FBI agents who are assigned to help us, we can tell 

1 7 them about what goes on in the grand jury room. Like the 

1 8 fellow outside, H.M. Roach, who I think you’ve met, we’re 

1 9 allowed to tell him about what’s happened. Do you understand 

2 0 that? 

2 1 A Yes. 

2 2 Q They’re aiding in our investigation. But they 

2 3 themselves are subject to the 6(e) rule. l3e-y can’t go blab 

2 4 about it. Do you understand that? 

2 5 A I understand. 

i Page c 

1 Q Another exception would be -- let’s say a trial 

. 2 results from our investigation, a trial of somebody, and you 

3 wzrecalledasawitness. Ifyousaidsomethingonthestand 

4 completely different than what you tell us here today, 

5 somebody - any of the lawyers involved on any side could 

t 6 hold up a transaip&of your grand jury testimony and say 

7 that’s not what you said whez~ you wae in front of the grand 

I B jury. 

4 J Do you understand that? 

lf 3 A Yes. 

1. I Q That would be another example. 

1: 2 Weean-pursuan ttocourtordeqifweare 

1: 1 orckredtobyawurt,incertaincircuxnstancesgrandjury 

1’ 4 material can be released. Do you understand that? 

1 5 A Yes. 

1 6 Q Independent counsels operate under slightly 

1 7 different rules, in that there are certain instances pursuant 

1 8 to the repbrting fi.mction of an independent counsel - 

1’ 9 reporting to Gmgreq issuing a final report -- that, agaiq 

21 0withacourt_ordafromajudge,certaingrandjurymateriai 

2 1 can be released Do you understand that? 

2: 2 A Yes. 

2. 3 Q Okay. Now, is there anything about your rights and 

2z 4 responsibilities as I’ve explained them that you do not 

2. 5 understand? 

- 

Page 6 

no particular suspicions about, but just somebody who has 

information that’s within the grand jury’s subject mattez 

jurisdiction. Do you understand that? 

A Yes. 

Q Doyouunderstandthatyouareawitness? 

A Yes. 

Q And you understand we can’t promise thataperson 

will be a witness forever. It’s an ongoing investigation, 

and we don’t know what we’ll discover. Do you underst& 

that? 

A Yes. 

Q But yoti are a witness as of now. You understand? 

A Yes. 

Q All right. You understand that you have to tell 

the truth? 

A Yes. 

Q That if you tell a lie abOUt an important matter, 

that’s pexjury and that’s a crime. 

A Yes, I understand. 

Q In that regard, if there’s any question that we ask 

that you don’t understand, that’s not artfully asked, tell us 

to ask it again, and we’ll do our best. 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. We are bound by certain oaths of secrecy, 

myself, Ms. Wirth, the court reporter, and the grand jury. 

1 

2 
4433 

Page 9 

1 A No. 

2 MR. WISENBERG: Did I leave anything out? 

3 MS. WIRTH: No. 

4 MR. WISENBERG: Okay, all right_ 

5 Then I’m going to hand YOU over for questioning by 

6 my colleague, Ms. Wirth. 

7 

8 Q 

9 A 

10 Q 

11 A 

i2 Q 

83 A 

14 Q 

IS A 

16 Q 

;7 is? 

18 A 

9 Q 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Can you tell the grand jury how old you are? 

I’m 24. 

And what is your marital status? 

I’m single. 

And where were you born? 

Los Angeles. 

And where do you live now? 

Los Angeles. 

Can you tell the grand jury what your occupation 

I’m a staff assistant at Warner Bros. 

And can you tell us a little bit about your 

!o educational background? 

!1 A I attended high school in Beverly Hills at Beverly 

!2 Hills High School, and then I did my fti years at college 

!3 at Sonoma State University and my fmal three years at San 

!4 Francisco State University. 

!5 Q Where’s Sonoma State? 

1 A 

2 Q 

3 A 

4 Q 

5 A 

6 Q 

7 A 

8 Q 

Page 10 

Northern California, in thz wine country. 

Okay. Do you know Monica Ixwinsb? 

Yes. 

And how do you know her? 

I know her from high school. 

Andinwhatyearofhighschooldidyoumeether? 

Ninth grade. 

And did you know her all the way through high 

9 school? 

0 A Yes. 

1 Q Can you describe for the grand jury what your 

2 relationship with her was in high school? 

3 A we were best friends. 

4 Q Can you tell the grand jury a little bit about what 

5 shewaslikeinhighschooZwhatkindofpason,~kind 

6 of student? 

7 A She was a good student. She was outgoing. I had 

B met her right after her parents separated. 

9 Q And what happened when you graduated from high 

D school? Where did you do? where did she go? 

1 A She stayed in LQS Angeles and attended a junior 

2 college for two years, and I moved to Sonoma. 

3 Q Do you know what college she attended? 

1: 

1C 

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22 

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I 24 A Santa Monica College. 24 

95 Q And when you and she went your separate ways to 25 

__-_. 

March 19.1998 

Page 11 

1 college, did you continue to keep in touch with her? 

2 A Yes 

3 Q And ;iow did you do that? 

4 A Phoil: and visits. We talked on the phone mostly. 

5 Q After she attended Santa Monica, what happened? 

6 Where did .k go next? 

7 A She -:,cnt to Portland and went to Lewis & Clark 

8 College. 

9 Q And <id you continue to keep in touch with her when 

0 she was thire? 

1 A Yes. 

2 Q Dill m ever visit her there? 

3 A I did. 

4 Q How many times? 

5 A- Once. 

6 Q And did you ever meet any of her friends from that 

7 college, from Lewis & Clark? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Who did you meet? 

0 A I I-& 3 Catherine -- 

1 Q Was :i:at Catherine Allday? 

2 A Yes. 

4 A Ye.% 

7 A %>’ %‘& lovers. 

8 Q A11~1d!dywlmowthatbasedonyourconversations 

9 with Mor:,?a? 

0 A Yes. 

1 Q What iio you know about Monica’s college exeerience, 

2 what kind of student she was, whether she was happy in 

3 college, arid so on? 

1 A I kx~w she - it was important to her to do well. 

I know that she wanted to move on and go to graduate schooL 

Q \‘iiirl was her major? 

A PSydxhgy. 

Q When you both graduated from college, what happened 

to her, VJ).:.; !lappened to you? 

A Sht : .-ved to Washington and I stayed in San 

Francisco TX a year after I graduated. She graduated a year 

before I did. 

Q She graduated a year before you did? 

A Yes. 

Q wile -be moved to Washington, do you remember what 
4434 

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time of year that was, what year it was and what time of the 

year? 

A Which part? 

Q what year did she move to Washington? 

A ‘95, summer. 

Q Summertime? And did she have employment in 

Washington? 

A I knew that she had applied for an internship at 

the White House. 

Q And do you know whether she had any assistance in 

getting that job? 

A She mentioned that Walter Kaye would help her 

applyQ Who was Walter Kaye? 

A As I understood, Walter Kaye was a friend of her 

aunt. 

Q And did Walter Kaye have any relationship to 

anybody in Washington that you know? 

A I know that he was a contributor to the Democrati 

Party. I know that she had told me what exactly it was. I 

just don’t recall. 

Q And do you know whether, in fact, Mr. Kaye assisted 

her in getting her her internship? Did she ever tell you 

that? 

A I don’t know, no. 

Multi-Pagem March 19, 1998 

1 

3 Page 15 

1 Q And did she talk about her work? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q What did she tell you? 

4 A She told me that she -- she told me what her dutit; 

5wel-e as an intern. 

6 Q What kinds of duties did she tell you that she did? 

7 A I think mostly correspondence. I think she opened 

8 mail and would write letters back, photo requests and stuff 

9 of that nature. 

I IO Q Did she ever tell you anybody that s& worked for? 

1 11 A I don’t remember. 

1 12 Q Did she ever tell you about any of her friends at 

1 13 work? 

1 :4 A I know that she didn’t have many in the beginning 

I .5 I remember her being lonely during that period. _ - _ 

1 .6 Q Did you visit her in Washington? 

1 .7 A Yes. 

1 .8 Q When did you visit her? 

.c 1 9 A I visited her twice, once in October of -- 

2 !O Q This is 199S? 

2 !1 A ‘95, and she was an intern. And I returned in 

2 !2 March of ‘96, once she was working for Leon Panetta 

2 !3 Q Okay, now, with respect to your visit in October of 

2 !4 1995, how long did you stay? 

2 !5 A A weekend, I think a Friday through Sunday. 

I Page 1. 

1 Q And who did you stay with? 

2 A Istayedwithlxrandhermotlxr. 

3 Q Monica was living with her motlxzr at that time? 

4 A Y&i. 

? 5 Q And did you visit Monica’s workplace? 

, 6 A Yes. 

7 Q TelI us abogt that. Where did you go, what 

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24 Q &J YOU rcmemhex the names of any friends that you 

25 J. me& if you met any? 

Page lr 

What is her aunt’s name? 

Debbie. 

Have you met her aunt? 

Yes. 

what other members of Monica’s family have you met: 

I have met her maternal grandmotkr, I know 

Debbie’s husband and son, I know her father’s side, her 

grandmotlxzr and her father’s two sisters, and I know he] 

stepmother. 

Q And do you know her father and mother as well? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know any siblings? 

A And lxx brother as well, Michael. 

Q Now, when Monica moved to Washington, you said it 

was in the summer of 1995, did she begin an internship at the 

white House? 

A She did. Idon’t exactly remember which month, but 

she did. 

happened? 

A It was probably the last hour, maybe two hours on 

Friday. I remember the place -- not specifiiy, I remember 

therCKVm.1 remembermeetingotherinterns. Imether 

supervisor. And it was a very casual -- it was, you know, 

5:OO 011 Friday, and she showed me around a little bit. She - 

- she introduced me to people. 

Q ~aSth~ttheO~~occaSiOU~OUbadtOgOtOthe 

White House that weekend? 

A Ye& 

Q And did you continue to keep in touch with her 

during that period? 

A Yes. 

Q How did you do that? 

A Phone. 

Q And about how often would you speak, generally? 

A At that point pretty often, once a week. 

Q WbenyousawMonicathatw&end,didshediscus~ 

her work with you? 

A I don’t recall. 

Q Was she happy working at the White House, do you 

remember? 

A Yes. I 
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1 A I don’t remember, not on that trip. 

2 Q Did you meet any friends? 

3 A I don’t know if they were her friends or co4 interns. 

5 Q Did Monica discuss the President at all on that 

6 trip? 

I A Yes. 

a Q What did she tell you? 

9 A She told me that she was attracted to him, she had 

o a big crush on him, and I think sbe told me she at some point 

1 had gotten his attention, that there was some mutual eye 

2 contact and recognition, mutual acknowledgement 

3 Q Is this something you had discussed with her prior 

4 tothistrip? 

5 A I don’t remember. 

6 Q All right. Is there anything else about that 

7 weekend that you recall? 

8 A No. 

9 Q And you went back to California after that? 

0 A Yes. 

1 Q Anddidyoucontinuetotalktoheronthe 

2 telephone? - 

3 A YeS. 

4 Q Did there come a time during your conversations 

5 that fall when Monica mentioned anything specifically had 

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P3g:e 19 

1 Q Where was Monica? 

2 A In Washington. 

3 Q And did she tell you anything more specific than 

4 she kissed the President? 

5 A She told me -- I think it happened late on a 

6 we&night, that people were working late, or there was may& 

7 a party within the office after work, and that she had an 

8 opportunity to bring the President a slice of pizza from this 

9 Party. 

0 Q Did she tell you where it took place? 

1 A I think she said it was in an office within the 

2 oval Office. 

3 Q What did you say to her, if you remember? 

4 A I was shocked. 

5 Q‘ Did you believe her? 

6 A I did believe her. 

7 Q Why did you believe her? 

8 A Because I don’t think she would lie about it. 

9 She’s never lied to me before. 

:O Q Did you say anything to her? 

.l A 1 thought it was crazy. 

2 Q Did you tell her that? 

3 A I don’t remember what I said. I probably told her 

4 that. 

5 Q Anything else about that conversation that you 

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Page 18 

happened with respect to the President? 

A Yes, but I don’t know exactly when. I know it was 

between October, that visit, and the one in March. 

Q So sometime October ‘95 and March of ‘96. 

A Yes. 

Q can you tell us about that conversation? 

A In November, ‘Ihanksgiving of %,I had cakd her 

orsbe-Idon’t remember who called who, actually - and 

shetoldmethatsbehadaseaeSandIfeltthatsheneeded 

to let it out, and she told me that nobody knew, or that I 

wasn’t supposed to tell anybody, and that she’d kissed the 

President. 

Q Now, why do you remember that this conversation 

took place in November? 

A Because it was on my birthday. 

Q And when is your birthday? 

A Itwasonllm&sgiving,theactualdayshetoldme. 

I can’t remember if my birthday fell on it or near it. It 

usually falls during tbat week. My birthday’s the 23rd of 

November. 

Q And where were you at that time when that 

conversation took place? 

A I was in my sister’s bedroom. 

Q In your parents’ home? 

A Yes, in Los Angeles. 

-._.__--__- _--.- ._ 

March 19,1998 

lrecall? 

2 A No. 

3 Q Didtherecomeatimewhenyoudiscussedwith 

4 Monica the President again after that? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q what do you remember3 

7 A 1 remember her - her being pretty confident that 

8 it would happen a&in. I don’t know based on what, but it 

9 xemedlikesomethingwasgoingtostart,ordevelopfurther, 

0 andIknowthat--Idon’tknowspecificallyhowlongafter 

1 or how many times, but I know that a physical relationship 

2 did develop. 

3 Q What did she tell you ahout that? 

4 A She told me that she gave him oral sex. 

5 Q Do you remember when she first told you that? 

6 A I know it was after November of ‘95. I don’t know 

7 specifically - I know it wasn’t long after. I don’t 

8 remember specific~ly -- 

9 MR. WKENBERG: I’m sorry. It was not long after? 

0 THE WITNESS: It was not long after. 

1 BY MS. WIRTH: 

2 Q Was it still in 1995, if you recall? 

3 A It might have been. 

4 Q And did she tell you where and when that took 

5 place? 
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A 1 remember mostly late nights or Sundays or 

Saturdays. It was weekends, in his office. 

Q Was it that same office within the Oval Office? 

A Yes, 1 think so. 

Q What did you say to her when she told you that? 

A 1 thought it was crazy. 

Q Did you believe her? 

A 1 did believe her. 

Q And when you say you thought it was crazy, you mean 

in the sense of a foolish thing to do or -- what do you mean? 

A It was just so big, it was -- she and 1 had that 

kind of relationship where we’d discuss things of that 

nature, but this was just so huge, this was somebody huge. 

Q Do YOU remember anything that you said to her, what 

your reaction was? 

A I remember in the beginning I found it crazy, like 

I said, and then it got to be more humorous, and then it got 

to a point where 1 felt it had hecome an obsession, and I - 

I think that 1 just showed disinterest after a while. 

Q You’re talking about a progression over a period of 

time. 

A Yes. 

Q About what period of time did this range of 

feelings of yours progress over? 

A Probably - I know it was before she moved to the 

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Q what was before? 

Page 22 

A ThatIgrewtiredofit. 

Q Fromwbatpaiodoftime,fromwbtmtowben,did 

Monica discuss with you a physical relationship with the 

President? 

A I’m SOmy? 

Q when did she begin talking to you about her 

physical relationship with the President, and tluougb what 

period of time did those discussions continue? 

A ‘hey continued up until probably six months ago and 

began that first time in November, on my birthday. 

Q Okay. When you say six months ago, that would be 

roughly when? 

A When would that be? We’re in March. 

Q Sometime in the fall of ‘97 

A Probably late summer. 

Q And after that did you continue to discuss the 

President with her, after the late summer of ‘97? 

A Yes, but not nearly as often. 

Q Did the subject of the physical relationship come 

up after the late summer of ‘97 between her and the 

President? 

A Yes, but 1 think any discussion of it was because 

Pagem March 19. 1998 

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because of a lack of it. 

Page 23 

Q Now, going back to the first conversation that you 

had when Monica told you that she had oral sex with t 

President, what specifically did she tell you in terms of who 

gave who oral sex? 

A From what she told me, he had told her from the 

beginning that she shouldn’t expect any intercourse. And I 

know from what she told mc that wh thy were together, that 

he did not want to ejaculate. 

Q Did he tell her why she should not expect 

intercourse? 

A She told me that he said that he loved his family, 

and l- and he may have even said he didn’t want to. 

Q Getting back to my question, though, did she tell 

you w6o gave who oral sex? 

A She told me she gave him, he received. 

Q And throughout the course of your conversations 

with her, did that situation ever change? 

A 1 don’t think so. 

Q Did she ever tell you about any other sexual 

activity beyond her giving the President oral sex? 

A No. 1 know there was fondling. 

Q By who? 

A Byhim. 

Q And what particular places of her body, if she to’ ’ 

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A Her breasts. I know that she undressed for him. 

Q Now, after that first umversaticm when she told 

youshehadgiventbePresidentoraIsex,didtberecomea 

timewhenyoudiscussedthatwitbhaagain,tbatsbetold 

you that this actiyity continued? 

A o\roreSpo&.) 

Q Did you ever have another conversation with Monica 

where she discussed that she gave the President oral sex 

after that first conversation? 

A Oh,yeah. 

Q Okay. And can you tell the grand jury over what 

period of time, how long those conversations would take 

place, what she told you? 

A I think she told me every time it happened. I 

don’t rcmQnbQ bow many exactly, probably bctw&n Novanbcr of 

‘95 till six months ago, maybe a total of five times. 

Q Did she ever tell you anything beyond what we’ve 

already discussed in texms of details? 

A No. 

Q Did &e ever tell whether ejaculation - if that 

ever occurred? 

A She did tell me once it did. 

Q Did she ever discuss with you when these encounters 

would take place, what time of the day, what time of the 

_ 
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A I know that they were late at night if it was a 

work&y. It would be around 11:OO. But I think most of the 

times was on the weekends. 

Q And did she discuss where they took place? 

A In his office. I think it almost always did. 

MR. WENBERG: And which office is that? 

THE WSS: I don’t remember. I think she -- I 

think I always assumed it was the same place. Sometimes it 

was his study, I think, within the Oval. I think it was - 

that’s what it’s called. I know that he had another oftice, 

but I don’t know if that one was it. 

BY Ms. WIRTHz 

A I think April of ‘96. 

Multi-PZlgP March 19, 1998 

I 

5 Page 27 

1 A I know she worked for the chief of staff. I know 

2 her office was right near the Oval Office. I know she really 

3 liked it. She liked the physical closeness of her office to 

4 the President. 

5 Q Now, you told us that you made a second visit to 

6 Washington. And when was that? 

7 A March of ‘96. 

8 Q And was Monica still employed as a permanent 

9 employee at that time? 

1 0 A Yes. 

1 1 Q And, by the way, does the Office of Legislative 

1 2 Affairs ring a bell -- 

1 3 A Yeah. 

I 4 Q -- as to where she worked? 

1 5 A- Yes. 

1 6 Q NOW, when you came this second time, how long did 

1 7 you stay for? 

1 8 A I believe it was a Friday to Monday. 

1 9 Q And who paid for you to come out? 

t2 0 A She flew me out. 

2 1 Q MY? 

2 2 A She was depressed. She didn’t have much of a 

2 

2 

2 

Q Did she ever tell you about any particular either 

item of furniture or appliance in this office where this took 

place? 

A Irememberbersayingtberewasasinkintberoom. 

Q hyoumnem her in what context she mentioned that? 

A I don’t remember. 

Q Now, you told us a moment ago that at some pain! 

Monica went to work at the Pentagon; is that right? 

A YeS. 

Q Do you know, first off, when Monica left the white 

House? 

3 sociallife. Iknowsbe--shesaidshebadn&edmeand 

4 wanted me to come out. 

5 Q Where did you stay when you came? 

Page 26 

1 Q Andgoingbackforamoment,didtberecomeatime 

2 whenshefinishedberintemshipandtookapennanentjobat 

3 the White House? 

4 A 

5 Q 

5 A 

7 Q 

3 A 

? Q 

1 A 

1 Q 

2wkn 

yeah, Y= 

Do you how when that was? 

That was before my second visit. 

And your second visit was in March of ‘96? 

Right I think it happened in December of ‘95. 

That she changed jobs to a permanent job? 

YeS. 

Doyouknowwhatkindoftaskssbehadatthattime 

sbeclxqedjobstoa permaxnt employment? Did she 

3 ever tell you what kind of pass she had? 

I A Howsk5 Q What kind of pass she had? 

5 A Oh,pass. Ithoughtyousaidpast. Sorry. 

I She told me that she had gotten a blue pass. 

3 Q Do you know what that means? 

3 A She - she told me more or less it was something 

I not easy to get, and that it would allow ha access into the 

I White House, and I know that she really wanted one. 

2 I remember as an intern she talked about it a lot, 

I that she wanted one, and she finally got one. 

I Q Do you know -- did she tell you anything about her 

i permanent job, what office it was with, what her duties were? 

/ Page 28 

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A 

At her apartment again. 

Was her mom there at this time? 

I think so. 

Did you visit her workplace on that trip? 

Yes. 

How many times? 

Twice. = 

Tell us about the first time. 

The fmt time was Friday. She arranged for a tour 

for me of the White House. She didn’t go with me. Someone 

else took me on it. And I met her when it was over. 

Q Did you meet any co-workers or friends of hers at 

the White House at that time? 

A She introduced me to many people. I remember Betty 

Currie specifically. 

Who is Betty Cun-ie? 

The President’s personal secretary. 

Did you meet anybody named Nel or Nelvis? 

Yeah, I met Nel. 

-0 is Nkl? 

Ithinkhe-Iknowthatheworksinthe 

commissary over there, or a mess hall. 

Q Did you meet Ashley? 

A I did meet Ashley Friday night. 

Q Ashley Raines? 
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A Yes. 

Page 2’ 

Q Okay. And did you make a second visit to the White 

House that weekend? 

A Yes. 

Q And when was that? 

A Sunday morning. 

Q What happened? 

A I had woken up, and she told me that she needed to 

get something from her office, paperwork, I think, that she 

had left something and she needed it. So - so we went over 

there Sunday morning. We threw on clothes and just went 

OVer. 

And there were more people there. She introducel 

me to them. And it was real quick. She picked up what she 

needed. 

And then I think she left her keys, and I waited 

for her in the hallway, and she come out, and I had heard her 

talking to someone. And I had turned the comer, I was in 

the hallway looking at pictures on the wall. And she ca!led 

for me to come back to her. I could hear her around the 

corner. 

And she was standing there with a Secret Service 

man outside of her office door, and the President shortly 

came out of the restroom, which I think was next door. 

Q And what happened then? 

Page 3( 

Anditwasearly,andIhadmadesmaUtalkwithso 

mauy people that morning that she introduced me to that I w-a 

amqed,andthenIlookedandIsawwhoitwas,andIthink 

I laughed. 

Q And did she introduce you to the President? 

A Shedid. 

Multi-Pagc’M March 19, 1998 

1 

9 Page 3 1 

1 b&t-e, or within the last week, and I told him that I knew 

2 that He asked mc how I was and I asked him how be was, and 

3 be -- he told me that he was just getting over laryngitis or 

4 he had laryngitis, and I remember it being funny. 

5 Q Anything else memorable about that meeting with the 

6 President? 

7 A Yeah. Without sounding vain, I hope, I felt that 

8 he was checking me out. 

9 Q Why did you think that? 

1 IO A I just felt like he looked me up and down. 

1 II Q Did you ever say anything to Monica about that? 

1 I2 A Ididwhenheleft 

dl !3 Q What did you say? 

1 14 A Well, I brought it up in a funny way, and she 

1 5 really didn’t react at all. I -- I know that she was really 

1 .6 excited that she - that that whole thing just happened by 

1 7 accident, and that I had an opportunity to meet him. She was 

I 8 really excited about that. 

1 9 I remember her telling - and she kind of wasn’t 

: 2 !O there. Her bead was somewhere else. 

2 !I Q Did she - during that particular visit that you 

2 12 had with her in Wash&ton, did she tell you anything about 

r2 13 her relationship with the President that you reeaII? 

2 14 A During my visit? I remember her -- she had played 

2 15 a tape for me from her answering machine. 

1 Page 3, 

1 Q During that visit? 

2 A I believe so. Yeah, I think it was that second 

, 3 visit. 

4 Q What was on the tape? 

5 A IcaIl’tmmemberifsheplayedtbetapeformetbm 

6 oritwasaftert$~vi!ritoverthephone. Yeah,Ican’t 

S 7 rememberifitwasactuallyduringthatvisitorifit 

8 happened after. 

9 Q Butthemcameatimewhenyouheardthetape? 

1 0 A TheredidcomeatimewhenIheardthetape. 

1 1 Q Was that in 1996 at some point? 

II 2 A Yes. 

1 3 Q And what kind of tape was it? 

1 4 A It was from her answering machine, a casztte tape. 

1 5 Q What did she say to you when she played it for you? 

1 6 A I don’t remember what she said. I know she really 

1’ 7 wantedmetohearit Shethoughtitwasprettycool. 

1, 8 Q What did it say? 

I’ 9 A I know that she’d saved it. I don’t know long it 

21 0 was saved hefore she had an opportunity to play it for me. 

2 I What did it say? 

2: 2 Q Yes. 

2. 

2, 

: 2. 

A She told me that she wanted me to meet someone. 

AndIrememberbeforeIknewitwashim--becauseIdon’t 

know at what point I actually saw who she was about to 

introduce me to -- I remember being annoyed because I just 

wanted to go. 

Q what do you member about any conversation beti 

you and the President or Monica and the President? 

A She said, “I want you to meet a friend of mine.” 

She said this to him. And she introduced me and - 

Q How did she introduce you, do you remember? 

A “This is my best friend, Natalie.” 

Q What did he say? 

A I think he said, “You must be her friend from 

Cahfomiq” something along those lines. I mmemher being 

1 shocked that he knew where I was from. I can’t remember if 

2 he knew L.A. or San Francisco or California. 

3 Q Did be make any remarks about California at that 

1 time? 

5 .L\ He said that he was just in San Francisco the week 

3 A It said - he said, “You’re not home. Bye.” 

4 Q It was one message that you beard? 

5 A One that I heard. 

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Multi-PaeeTH March 19.1998 

Page 3 

I Q Did you recognize the voice on that tape? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q whose voice was it? 

4 A The Fresident’s. 

5 Q And could you describe for the grand jury the 

6 volume or tone of the voice that you beard on that tape’ 

7 A It -- he had made an effort to lower his voice. It 

8 wasn’t a whisper. I think I had to hear it twice to -- to 

9 recognize the voice. I mean, I did recognize it. I’m no1 

o used to his voice in that low volume. 

1 Q Andwhenyouheardthistape,hadyoualrcadyrnet 

2 him in person? 

3 A Yes, I think so. 

4 Q To your knowledge, who else did Monica confide her 

5 relationship with the President to? 

6 A I know that she had told Neysa. 

7 Q Who is Neysa? 

8 A Neysa is a friend of hers from the second high 

9 school she attended. 

3 Q Do you know Neysa? 

1 A Yes. 

2 Q Are you also a friend of hers or - 

3 A Not independent of Monica, not really. 

4 Q who else? 

5 A I know she revealed it to Ashley later. 

Page 34 

I Q Because Monica told you? 

2 A Monica told me that. She told me she had told 

3 Catherine. 

t Q Catherine Allday? 

5 A Yes. Andshehadmentionedthatshehadtoldlm 

5 mam. Idon’tlcnowifherrnomk.newalltbegtaphicstufIths 

1 berfriendsknew. Ilarowthathermom-shetoldmethat 

S she-shediscussedwithhermommeetinghimoutsideof 

3 office hours, on the weekends and stuff, and I don’t mealI 

1 to what extent. 

I Q Do you know, based on your conversations with 

! Monica, whether her mother knew that Monica had a sexual 

1 relationship with the President? 

I A I don’t recall if I assumed it or she told me, one 

i wayortheother. Ialwaysassumedsheknew. Iknowthat 

i they were very close. 

I Q Did Monica ever tell you anything about C&e&e’s 

; reaction to Monica’s relationship with the President? 

1 A I know from Catherine, and I know from Monica 

t telling me about Catherine’s reaction, that -- that she 

thought it was crazy. And I mnunhcr Monica being up& with 

! Catherine, and telling me that she was upset, and I would 

; ask, and she would say, “Because she gave me another 

t lecture.” 

, And I think she was bothered hecause she knew she 

? 

t 

1 

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o or fired? 

1 A No. 

2 Q Did she ever discuss with you whether people at the 

3 white House liked her, accepted her, appreciated her? 

4 A She told me that she felt that the women 

5 specifically didn’t like her. 

Page 3t 

I Q Did she say why? 

. z A She. never said why, or I don’t remember her giving 

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Page 3: 

was right, she knew that Catherine was right, but didn’t want 

to hear it. 

Q And the lecture would he one of disapproval of this 

relationship? 

A Yeah, yes. And it was -- I repeated the same 

disapproval, and I’m sure the other people who knew didn’t 

approve. 

Q Do you know whether Monica’s aunt knew about 

Monica’s relationship with the President? 

A I don’t know. 

Q Now, returning to a subject we touched on just 

briefly a few minutes ago, Monica left the White HOW, left 

employment at the White House and went to work at tb 

Pentagon, you told us, correct? 

A -Yes. 

Q Do you know why Monica left the White House? 

A I think she told me that they had eliminated the 

position in that office. 

Q Did she ever tell you that she was asked to leave 

amson. But1 rwnenlberherfeehngthreataKd bysomeof 

the women. I know she felt very competitive with the women 

for the President’s attention. 

Q Now,whenMonicawenttoworkatthePentageqwas 

she happy the& 

A No. 

Q what did she tell you? 

A She went there thinking that it wouldn’t be for 

long, and she didn’t Like working in that part of town. She 

didn’t like the environment. 

Q Did she ever discuss with you either a wish or an 

intention to return to work at the White House? 

A Yes. 

Q what did she say? 

A She said that she did want to return, and she said 

thatMR. WISENBERG: That she did or didn’t want to 

return? 

& WITNESS: That she did want to return to the 

White HOUW, and that the Pxsident yould make some effort to 

have her come back. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q Did she ever tell you whether the President had 
4440 

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Multi-Page TM March 19, 1998 

Page 3’ 7 

told her a specific time that she would bc able to come back? 

A I don’t remember a specific time. I just remembe 

it wasn’t fast enough for her. I know that she really didn’t 

expect to be there as long as she was. 

Q Did she ever tell you that she had to wait until 

after the presidential election in 1996 to go back? 

A She may have. 

Q Did she ever tell you what efforts the President 

made, if he made any, to get her back into the White House? 

A I don’t recall him making any, or none that I can 

I-CCdl. 

Page 39 i 

1 A Both. ! 

2 THE FOREPERSON: Excuse me, Ms. Wirth. 

Q Did she ever tell you about any discussions that 

she had with anyone who worked at & White House about 

getting back into the White House to work? 

A No. 

Q Did she ever mention anybody named Marsha? 

A No. 

Q Now, when Monica went to work at the Pentagon, can 

you tell us, based on your conversations with Monica, whethe 

her relationship, her physical relationship with the 

President continued, and, if so, did it change in any way or 

stay the Sam& 

A I know that she saw him a lot less frequently, that 

the visits had spread out, the time between visits was a lot 

longer. 

:r 

3 Ms. WIRTH: Yes. 

4 THE FOREPERSON: It’s time for a break. 

5 MS. WIRTH: Yes. 

6 MR. WISENBERG: For? 

7 THE FOREPERSON: For 15 minutes. 

8 MR. WISENBERG: All right. May the witness be 

9 excused? 

10 THE FOREPERSON: Yes, She may. 

11 MR. WISENBERG: We will come and get you when it’s 

12 tinxtostart. 

13 THE WUNE%: Okay. 

14 MR. WISENBERG: Thanks. 

15 (%tness excused. Witness recalled.) 

16 MR. WISENBERG: Is the grand jury ready? 

17 A JUROR: We have a quorum, do we not, Madam 

I8 Foreperson? 

T. 19 THE FOREPERSON: Yes, we do. 

20 MR WISENESERG: No unauthorized persons are present 

d 21 in the grand jury room? 

a 22 THE FOREPERSON: No, sir, we do not, 

. d 23 Ms. Ungvari, you’re still under oath. 

1 A 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

1 A 25 BY MS. WIRTH: 

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Page 38 

Q And when they visited, was it in the same place a~ 

before in the office? 

A Ithinkso. Ithinkshewouldseehimateventsas 

well, outside of work. 

Q And did their physical relationship continue when 

shedidseehim? 

A I don’t remember if it was physical after that, but 

Iknowtbatshcbccamemortdcprsscd,and~uscshtbccamt 

depressed, I assumed it was another lack of it. 

Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether at any time 

after Monica left the White House and wasn’t working t.kc, 

she had physical contact with the President, or sexual 

contact with him? 

A Yeah, I’m sure. 

Q Just less frequent? 

A Yes. 

Q Did she ever tell you how she got into the White 

House to see the President after she left working there? 

A I think she said that -- well, she knew a lot of 

people there still, but I remember mostly Betty Currie 

arranging it, or she was the messenger. 

Q “she,” Betty? 

A Yes. 

Q Did Monica tell you that Betty would call her and 

arrange a meeting or that Monica would call Betty? 

Page 4\. 

Q I think before we broke we were talking about Betty 

assisting Monica in terms of getting into the White House to 

visit the President after Monica left to work at the 

Pentagon. 

A Mm-hmm. 

Q And I believe you testified that somehes Betty 4? 

would call Monica and sometimes Monica would call Betty, 

Correct? 

A Yes. 

Q To arrange those appointments. Did Monica ever 

tell you whether Betty Cunie about Monica’s sexual 

relationship with the President? 

A No. 

Q No, she never told you? 

A No. I asked her once. 

Q And what did she say? 

A Shesaidno. 

Q Do you remember when you asked her that? 

A Probably sometime after she left the Pentagon. It 

was after I had met Betty. 

MR. WKENBERG: YOU said after she left the 

Pentagon. 

THE WITNESS: I’m sorry. After she left the White 1 

4 House to go to the Pentagon. 

5 BY MS. WIRTH: I 
4441 

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Page 41 

Q Did you ever have any further discussions with 

Monica about whether Betty knew? 

A No. 

Q What about Nel or Nelvis, do you know whether he 

knew about Monica’s relationship with the President? 

A I don’t think so. I don’t -- I don’t remember her 

telling me anything and I don’t remember asking. 

Q That subject didn’t come up. 

A Never. 

Q Now, what, if anythin& do you know about any gifts 

that Monica gave to the President? 

A I know that she gave him two ties, maybe more. I 

nznember two. 

Q Did she ever tell you whether the President wore 

those ties? 

A yes. 

Q What did she tell you? 

A I know the first one she bought him he wore -- she 

had shown me a photograph that had been published in 2 

magazine, I think, of him wearing it during the signing of a 

bill. 

Q Do you know what bill? 

A The telecom bill. And I think the other one, he 

took a photograph, a more formal photograph in it for her. 

Q Wearing it? 

1 A 

2 Q 

3 A 

4 Q 

5 A 

6 Q 

7 A 

Yes. 

Page 42 

And did he give her that photograph? 

I think so. 

Did you ever see it? 

IthinkIdidsezit. 

Did you see it Washington or somewhere else? 

IthinkIsawitinLA. Sheshowedmephotographs 

8 inL.A. 

9 Q And was it signed or autographed? 

0 A It might have been. 

I Q Besides the ties, what, if any, other gifts do you 

2 know that Monica gave to the President? 

3 A I know recently she purchased an antique, but I 

4 doll? remends exactly what, and I don’t know if she Save it 

s to him. I know that she had bought it for the purpose of 

6 giving it to him. 

7 Q So you have no idea - no memory of what it was? 

8 A I can’t remember. I just remember it being an 

9 antique, and it - I remember it being very old. 

0 Q And when you say “recently,” how recently? 

1 A Within the last six months. 

2 Q Any other gifts that she gave him that you recall? 

3 A No. 

4 Q Do you know about any books that she gave the 

6 President? 

Pye 4. 

1 A No. 

2 Q Do you know about any figurines or figures that jhr: 

3 gave the President? 

4 A No. 

5 Q Any mugs? 

6 A Yeah. 

7 Q Any gifts that the President gave to Monica that 

8 you know about from your conversations with Monica? 

9 A Gifts that he gave her? 

,O Q Yes. 

81 A She had showed me a cigar from -- with the 

.2 presidential seal on it. 

3 Q Where did she show you that? 

4 A At her house, at her apartment. 

5 Q-And this is in one of your two trips to see hzr? 

6 A 

7 Q 

8 A 

9 Q 

10 A 

!I Q 

12 A 

13 Q 

14 A 

Yes. 

Which one? 

I think it was the second one. 

Was it wrapped in plastic? 

Yes. 

Did it have any particular seal on it? 

Yes. 

What seal? 

It was the presidential seal, I think. I don’t 

15 really know one from the other. 

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Page44 

Q And did she tell you that the President gave her 

that cigar? 

A Yes. 

Q Anything else that he gave her? 

A HegotherahatpinandIthinkabroach. 

Q Did you ever see either of those items? 

A I saw or$: but I don’t remember which 011t it was. 

I may have seen both 

Q Where were you when you saw either one of than? 

A At her father’s house in L.A. this past 

Thanksgiving. 

Q Do you know about any other gifts the President 

gave Monica? 

A No. Other than photographs and a cigar and tl~ 

antique hat pin and broach, no. 

Q Do you know whether the &dent ever gave l&mica 

any books? 

A No. 

Q Did you ever hear any discussion of the book, 

“Leaves of Gra&“? 

A That Sounds familiar. 

Q Do you remember anything about that? 

A No. 

Q Did you know whether Monica and the President 

shared any interests in anything in particular? 
4442 

Page 45 

1 A I know they both liked antiques and they both liked 

2 Poetry3 Q Do you know anything about any conversations that 

4 Monica had with the President that they would talk about 

5 topics? 

6 A They discussed their family, sometimes politics. 1 

7 don’t remember anything specific, but it was person, it was 

8 friendly. 

9 Q Do you know whether there were times when Monica 

o would visit the President when they would just talk? Did she 

I ever talk to you about it? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Did Monica have any nicknames for the President 

4 that she used when she spoke to you? 

5 A She called him Handsome and The Creep or Tbe Big 

6 Creep. 

7 Q WbcndidcallhimTbcCroepandTbcBigGuzp? How 

8 was she feeling when she used those words? 

9 A She was usually disappointed when she called him 

10 The Creep or angry. 

!I Q Do you know whether Monica ever sent - ever had 

12 published a Valentine in the newspaper for the President? 

!3 A I don’t remember that 

14 Q Do you know whether the President ever gave Monica 

!5 any items of clothing? 

Multi-Page TM March 19, 1998 

1 

i Page 37 

1 came to California for Thanksgiving. Maybe about a moxh 

2 before that she started talking about it. 

3 Q This past November 1997, did you see Monica i 

4 California? 

5 A Yes. 

[ 6 Q Did she discuss with you at that time anything 

7 about her relationship with the President? 

8 A She seemed very depressed, and I could sense that 

9 she wanted to talk, but knew that I -- I probably didn’t unt 

I ‘0 to hear it. 

1 1 Q Now, you’ve mentioned before -- did you want to say 

1 2 something else? 

1 3 A We didn’t -- I think I brought it up, and I asked 

1 4 her if she was okay, specifically regarding him, and she just 

1 5 mentio&d she wanted to go to New York, and just leave. 

1 6 Q Okay. You mentioned before that, “She knew” -- 

1 7 “she,” being Monica -- “knew I didn’t want to hear it.” And 

1 8 I think earlier you also described, you know, a sequence of 

I 1 9 emotions that you had, ending with not wanting to hear about 

2 10 it. 

2 !I Can you tell the grand jury why you felt that way, 

2 :2 why didn’t you want to hear about Monica’s relationship with 

2 13 the President? 

2 4 A Firstly, it was because I recognized a pattern of 

2 :5 the same storv since I’ve known her. 

Page 4, 

1 Q What do you mean by that? Can you explain that to 

r 2 thegrandjuty? 

3 A She would become obsessed with a male, who waz 

4 usually pretty unobtainable, and - 

5 

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9 :,--_-SW 

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1 6 Q Okay. Any other examples? 

1 7 A No, I - I just remember it being the same story. 

1 8 Q Did you ever talk to her about that? 

1 9 A Yeah And she would just get frustrated. 

2 0 Q Now you said one reason that you didn’t want to 

2 I hear about Monica’s relationship with the President was that 

2 2 you noticed a pattern over time._ 

2 3 A Right I 

2 4 Q What else? I 

2 

Page 46 

1 A No. 

2 Q Now, you mentioned a moment ago photographs. 0the1 

3 than the one that you’ve already described where the 

4 PresidcntiswearingthetiethatMonieagavehim,arethere 

5 any other photographs that you saw in Monica’s possessi00 

6 that she told she got from the President? 

7 A Idon’tknowifshespeeificallyreceivedthemfrom 

8 the President or a photographer. She showed me some 

9 Christmas photographs that wlere taken of the first family, I 

0 think, in front of a Christmas tree, lots of formal 

1’ photographs. 

2 Q Were any of them with Monica in them? 

3 A Yes, at events, there wue some. I don’t know who 

4 she got them from, though. 

5 Q Do you know whether after Monica left the White 

6 House and worked at the Pentagon, whether she ever sent 

7 messages, letters, notes, things of that nature, to the 

8 President at the White House? 

9 A I don’t remember. 

10 Q Now, did there come a time when Monica began to 

:1 discuss with you that sbc wantai to leave Washin@m and movt 

:2 to New York? 

.3 A yes. 

14 Q And when did she tell you that? 

5 A I knew when she came to visit in November, when she 5 A The other one was that it -- it made me I I - 1 - I,, 
Page 4s 

I uncomfortable. 

2 Q Why? 

3 A Because of -- a little bit because of the -- I knew 

4 that a lot of people didn’t know. She called me from work 

s and talked about it, which made me kind of nervous. 

6 She seemed a little too confident that she could 

7 talk openly about it, and it made me feel weird. It just was 

8 __ she was too confident about it, and I hesitated to sharr 

9 her confidence. It was weird. 

,O Q Did you ever tell you outright, you know, “I don’t 

,l wanttohearaboutthis”? Orisitjustsometbingthatyou 

:2 projected in the way you reacted to her? 

13 A I don’t think I ever told her, but I projected it 

14 definitely. The same way with the other men. 

15 Q Did Monica ever date any other men during the 

16 period that she was talking to you about her relationship 

17 with the President? 

88 A There were a few. 

,9 Q Were they people she met in ?%.ShitIgtOn? 

!O A Yes. 

!l Q Do you remember any names? 

!2 A I remember a Doug and a Tom, Thomas. 

!3 Q Now, when Monica began to discuss with you, you 

!4 said, sometime in fall of 1997 that she wanted to go to New 

5 York to live, did she tell you why she wanted to go to New 

4443 

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Page 50 

York? 

A I know that she always loved New York, and I know 

thatshe-I~owthathermotherhadrelocatedandmoved 

there, and I know primarily she just wanted to get away from 

Washington. 

Q Did she tell you anything about her efforts to get 

a job in New York? 

A She told me that she wanted nothing to do with 

politics, that she wanted to maybe get into media or TV or 

something more interesting to her. And I know that she - 

she mentioned that maybe her mother could help her. I know 

her mom knoivs people thae. And sk mahoned that maybe tbc 

President would help her. 

Q Did she ever tell you anything that the President 

did to assist her to get a job in New York? 

A No, not specifically. 

Q Did she ever tell you about any interviews she had 

for a job in New York? 

A I know that she’d interviewed in Washington for a 

!O job in New York. 

!l Q And what job was that? 

!2 A A position at the U.N. I don’t know specifically 

!3 what. 

!4 

!5 

Q Who did she interview with? 

A Bill Richardson. 

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And did she obtain a job offer from the U.N.? 

She did. 

Did she want to accept that job? 

No. 

Did she tell you why? 

She told me that she didn’t accept it, and I asked 

why, and she said she didn’t -- she wasn’t interested. She 

didn’t want to work in that part of town, she said, in New 

York. And I think it was just too -- too related to 

politics, and she wasn’t interested and I think she wanted 

her experience in New York to be with a perfect job, making 

good income. She wanted it to be perfect. 

Q Did she talk to you at all about getting a job in 

private industry, in business? 

A No. 

Q Did she tell you whether anybody at the White House 

was helping her get a job in New York? 

A No one specifically. She just said that maybe the 

President could help her. 

Q Did she ever tell you that she met with Vernon 

Jordan in an effort to get a job in New York? 

A No. 

Q Did she ever mention the name, Vernon Jordan, tc 

you? 

A I don’t remember. 

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Page 51 

Q Did she ever mention Revlon or American Express? 

A No. 

Q How often did you talk to her in the fall of ‘97? 

How frequent were your conversations? 

A Probably once a month. 

Q And is there any particular reason why your 

telephone calls i&h her happened less frequently? 

A My schedule changed I’ve been working longer 

hours. I haven’t really talked to anybody socially since the 

sumnxz of ‘97. I’ve been very involved in work, and I know 

thatwhenwedidtalk,itwas--shewasmostlydepressed, 

andIdidn’thavethetimeortheenergyto_toii~, 

because it was always the same. 

And I know that she - she mentioned going to New 

York, but sometimes I’d talk to her and it would be, “This 

mekcad I’m moving to New York” and somctimcs it would be, 

‘I’m going to New York as soon as I find a job.” So I just 

kind of waited for her to call me from New York. 

I had mentioned that I wanted to go to New York 

and I wanted to wait till she was settled. 

Q You mentioned that you saw her around Than&i&g 

timeA Mm-hmm. 

Q -- when she visited Los Angeles. Did you speak t 

Monica in December of 1996? 
4444 

Page 53 

1 A Probably. 

2 Q Do you know how many times? 

3 A Maybe once. 

4 Q Do you remember anything about that telephone call? 

5 A No. 

6 Q Were you alone when that call was made? 

7 A Probably. I love alone. I could have called her. 

8 Sometimes I tried calling her from my work when I had time. 

9 Q Do you remember whether she discussed her 

0 relationship with the President during that December call? 

I A No. I know that she told me that she had a going2 away party at work, and that -- I think it was before 

3 Christmas. And that’s -- that’s really what I remember in 

4 December. 

5 Q What about January of ‘98? 

6 A January 2nd was the last time I spoke with her. 

7 Q And who ma& that call? 

8 A She called me. 

9 Q And where were you? 

0 A At home. 

1 Q And where was she? 

2 A I think she was at home. 

3 Q In D.C.? 

4 A In D.C., yes. 

5 Q Okay. And were you alone at that time? 

Page 54 

Multi-Pagcm March 19, 1998 

1 

, Page 55 

I she was going to leave pretty soon, and wb she gets thezz, 

2 she’ll call me again. 

3 Q Have you had any contact with Mtica since then? 

4 A No. 

5 Q Have you attempted to call her since then? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Tell the grand jury why and how many times. 

8 A I called her, I believe - oh, wait, I called her 

9 onthe 16thofJar?llaryandleftamessageooheransweri~ 

1 0 machine. I had wanted to tell her about somebody that I bad 

I I met the night before. And she never called back. 

1 2 And then I think it was the 21st - I had left that 

1 3 message for her on a Friday, and that following Wednesday, I 

1 4 think, I had woken up and seen her on a~ and made an attempt 

1 5 to call,-md there was no answer. 

1 6 Q Any answering machine? 

1 7 A Not an answering machine. There was nothing. II 

1 8 just rang. And I had called her father and left him a 

1 9 message. AndIthinkI-Ididattemptitanemoretimea 

2 0 couple weeks later. 

2 I Q Did you call her in D.C.? 

2 2 A Yes. 

2 3 Q Anyone pick up the phone? 

2 4 A No. 

2 5 Q Any answering machine? 

Page 5. 

1 A Nothing. 

2 Q Has anyone contacted you on her behalf? 

3 A Her attorney called me. 

4 Q That’s Mr. Ginsburg? 

5 A Mr. Ginsburg. 

6 Q Whendidihathappen? 

7 A I don’t kno% what the specific date was. I know i 

8 wasaSun&ymornin&andhehadleRmcamessageonmy 

9 machine, and I never responded. 

11 0 Q Do you know whether Mr. Ginsburg was involved in 

1 1 anything in particular on that Sunday? 

1 2 A I know that that day he was on several morning 

1 3 shows discussing the c89t. I didn’t watch any of them. I 

1 4 onlyknewaboutitfnrmtheother messages that I got that 

1 5 Sundayfromthcmedia,wantingtotallrtomeandtellingme 

1’ 6 thatifIwantedtodisrussanythingwiththcmedia,thatMr. 

1’ 7 Ginsburg gave me a green light to do so. 

1, 8 Q And did you do so? 

1’ 9 A No. 

21 0Q Was there any substantive in h4r. Ginsburg’s message 

2 1 toyouontheansweringmacbineotbertbautopagebimor 

2: 2 call him? 

2. 

24 4 Q And that was your last contact -- your only contact 

2. 5 withhim? 

1 A No, I had a guest from out of town. 

2 Q So what happened during that call? 

3 A ItwastwodarsafterNewYear’sEve,and~tallred 

4 about what we had done. 

5 Q What did she tell you? 

6 A Shetoldmeshewentto-somefiendsofhers 

7 fromheredraggedhertoaparty,Ithink,ataxestaurantor 

8 a bar, and she said she - she sounded really excited. She 

9 had had a great time. 

0 I know she always hated that holiday. She always 

1 had expectations of it, and she had a really good one, and I 

2 was happy to hear her happy again. She said that she’d met 

3 someone, who I think is from New York, and she was 

4 interested. And I told her what I did. 

5 Q Did the subject of the President come up during 

6 that Cdl? 

7 A I think I brought it up. 

8 Q What did you ask her? 

9 A I think I asked, “How are things going?” And she 

o said, “Not good.” And that was it 

1 Q Did she discuss with YOU plans to go to New York a! 

2 that time, during that call? 

3 A Yeah. 

4 Q What did she say? 

5 A She said she didn’t have a job yet, but she thought 

3 A No. He just told me to page him_ I 
4445 

Page 5’ 

I A Yes. 

2 Q Did Monica ever discuss Linda Tripp with you? 

3 A I don’t remember a specific conversation or 

4 description. I remember the last name. I thought it waz 

5 funny. 

6 Q Did you know that Monica had confided her 

7 relationship with the President in Linda Tripp? 

8 A No. 

9 Q Did you know that Linda Tripp was somebody who 

IO Monica worked with at the Pentagon? 

II A No. 

,2 Q Now, did Monica ever discuss with you what bappenec 

.3 to any of the gifts that she received from the President? 

4 A No. 

5 Q Did she ever tell you that she gave them to anyone? 

6 A No. 

7 Q Did she ever tell you about giving any of them to 

8 her mother? 

9 A No. 

10 Q To Betty &n-ie? 

!I A No. That I learned from the news. 

12 MR. WISENBERG: Did she ever indicate at any tim 

:3 that she was womied about having gifts from the President in 

84 her possession? 

:5 THE WITNESS: No. 

Page SE 

Multi-PageTM March 19,1998 1 

7 Page 5’ 

1 A No. 

2 Q Did Monica ever tell you that she was on a witness 

3 list in the Paula Jones case? 

i 4 A No. 

5 Q Did she ever tell you that she filled out an 

6 affidavit or signed an affidavit in the Paula Jones cast? 

7 A No. 

8 MR. WISENBERG: Or a statement of any kind? 

9 THE WITNESS: No. 

I IO BY h4S. WIRTH: 

1 IJ Q Did she ever tell you that she had a lawyer 

1 I 12 representing her in connection with the Paula Jones case? 

1 .3 A No. 

1 4 Q Did she ever tell you that she talked to a lawyer 

1 5 in cotmection with the Paula Jones case? 

1 6 A No. 

1 7 Q And, again, the name, Vernon Jordan, never came up 

1 8 in that regard? 

1 9 A I don’t recall. 

2 10 Q Did she ever talk to you about whether she would be 

2 I called to testify in the Paula Jones case? 

e2 :2 A No. 

2 :3 Q Did she ever discuss with you in general what she 

2 4 would say if anyone ever asked hez in any context about her 

2 5 relationship with the President? 

I Page 60 

1 A No. It was never an issue. I seemed to be more 

2 concerned than her. She seemed confident it would be a 

3 secret. 

4 Q Did Monica’s dad respond to your message, by tlx 

5 way? 

6 No. 

7 h4R. WIdhERG: I’ve got some questions. 

8 MS. WIRY Okay. 

9 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

11 0 You think this discussion where you said something 

1 1 to the effect of you can’t believe he’d be doing this with 

1. 2 the Paula Jones case going on. 

1. 3 You think it would have happened sometime in ‘97? 

18 4 A Ithink. 

1. 5 Q Okay. You’re just not that sure about the date of 

II 6 this discussion? 

1’ 7 A I’m IIOt sure. 

11 B Q You obviously knew there was a Paula Jones case. 

I! 9 A Yeah. 

21 3 Q And Ms. Lewinsky didn’t say anything to you like, 

2 

2: 

2: 

2d 

2: 

1 BY MS. WIRTHz 

2 Q Did she ever talk to you about destroying any of 

3 them or giving them to someone else to destroy? 

4 A No. 

5 Q Did she ever tell you about any particular item of 

6 clothing that She wore when She saw the &Sident? 

7 A No. 

8 Q Did the subject of the Paula Jones case ever come 

9 up in your conversations with Monica? 

0 A Yeah. I think I brought it up. 

1 Qwhen? 

2 A Probably sometime in ‘97. 

3 Q Do you remember what you said? 

4 A I remember her telling me of the most recent 

5 physical contact she had. I rememherasking’Doesn’the 

6 care that all of this is going on?” 1 mean, it just mi& no 

7 sense to me, and I thought maybe she had a clue. 

8 And she seemed really confident that -- she didn’t 

P really understand why I was concerned about it 

0 Q Did she ever say to you that she was concerned 

1 about being caught when she was together with the President? 

2 A No. 

3 Q Did she ever tell you of any close calls, where -- 

4 A No. 

5 Q-- she was almost discovered? 

.~.._. ~~ 

I “Who is Paula Jones?” or, “What’s the Paula Jones case?” or : 

2 anything like that. 

3 A No, she knew what I was talking about. I 

1 Q You said there weren’t any close calls in the White/ 

S House. Did she ever say that anybody had to say while she 

_ .._ 
4446 

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Page 6: 

1 was in the White House -- had to kind of cover for her, like 

2 she mi&t have been - as example, might have heeo found in a 

3 room where she shouldn’t have been or a hallway where she 

4 shouldn’t have been, and somebody had to come in and say, 

5 “That’s so-and-so,” something along those lines, kind of to 

6 cover for her and give a story, cover story? 

7 A No. 

8 Q Anything like that you can think of? 

9 A I remember when I asked about Betty’s knowledge of 

o everything, it seemed to me that Monica was just confident 

1 everybody would say the right thing, that everything would ln 

2 orchestrated to come out a secret 

3 Q Okay. 

4 A Not a secret, but they wouldn’t be caught. 

5 Q All right, 

6 A There wouldn’t be a problem. 

7 Q Is that what she said or an impression you got? 

8 A That’s an impression I got 

9 Q From something that she said? 

0 A I think just a lack of saying anything. 

1 Q She didn’t seem concerned, in other words. 

2 A No. Again, it seemed like I was more concerned. I 

3 was more stressed about them getting caught than she was. 

4 She seemed pretty confident everything would be fine. 

5 Q Is there any doubt in your mind that what she told 

Multi-Pagem March 19, 1998 

I 

I Page 63 

1 A No. 

2 A You mentioned a conversation with her, I believe, 

3 on the 2nd of January -- 

4 A hhn-hmm. 

5 Q -- of this year. You said something to the effect 

6 of how are things going with Monica and the President, and 

7 she said, “Not good.” Anything beyond that? 

8 A No. I had a guest over who doesn’t know anything, 

9 and I didn’t -- I didn’t pursue it beyond that. 

1 0 MS. WIRTH: May I ask a few questions? 

: 1 1 BY MS. WIRM: 

1 2 Q You didn’t ask the question on the telephone, 

1 3 “How’s it going with the President,” I take it. 

1 4 A No. 

1 5 Q What did you say? 

1 6 A “How are things going?” 

1 7 Q And did she appear to know what you meant? 

1 8 A Yes. 

1 9 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

2 0 Q And did you mention at all -- I guess this probably 

2 1 flows logically from your last answer, but I’ll ask this 

2 2 anyway. Did she mention in that conversation to you about 

2 3 the Paula Jones case? 

2 4 A Nothing. 

2 5 Ms. WIRTH: How long was that conversation? 

, Page6. 

1 THEwlTNEss: oh, 15 minutes. 

2 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

3 Q-L44 

5 A Yes. 

Page 62 

you about her relationship happened? 

A There’s no doubt. 

Q She wasn’t fantasizing it, in your opinion, as her 

friend? 

A No. 

Q Did she ever tell you about any gifts she gave the 

Presidentthatwouidhavehadhernamsome\khereinthegift 

likeagiftthathadsomethingprintcdonitandpartofthe 

printing had the name “Monica”? 

A No. 

Q You mentioned -- I’m trying to remember the context 

now. You mentioned that you had talked to her -- oh, I think 

you were talking about relationships that she would get 

into - 

A Mm-hmm. 

Q -- with unobtainable -- for example, married men. 

You said that she would be get frustrated 

A M..rn-hrllrll. 

Q How do you mean? 

A She would get frustrated by the rejection, physical 

rejection. It seemed that she wouldn’t take no for an answer 

whenever they wanted to end it. 

Q Does the name Burson -- I might be getting it wrong 

-- Burson Marsteller mean anything to you as a company she 

might have interviewed with? 

, 

, 

l( 

1 

1: 2 A Yes. 

1: 3 Q - in the presence of Ms. Lewinsky? 

Id 4 A Probably no more than five times. 

1: 5 Q Okay. Did he ever say to Ms. Lewinsky, “who are 

l( 5 you?” Did be ever indicate, in other words, that he didn’t 

1’ 7 know who Ms. Lewinsky was? 

II 8 A No, never, 

I! 3 Q Okay. 

2( 1 MR. WTSENBERG: I think that’s alI I’ve got right 

2: I now. Whydon’twetakeabriefbreak,andwe’ll.askyoutd 

2: 2 be excused for just a few minutes -- 

-_ 

2: 1 THE WlmESS: Okay. 

2r I MR. WISENBERG: -- and then we’ll come and get you 

21 5 back. 
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THE WITNESS: Okay. 

Page 6: 

(Witness excused. Witness recalled.) 

THE FOREPERSON: You’re still under oath. 

MR. wSENBERG: We have a quorum and there are no 

unauthorized people here, correct? 

THE FOREPERSON: Yes. 

MR. WISENBERG: Okay. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q The grand jurors have some questions of you that 

will ask on theii behalf, and then we might have some others 

after these. 

A Okay. 

Q You mentioned that when Monica got involved in this 

pattern of getting involved with men who were in some sense 

unobtainable, sometimes it would reach - within those 

relationships, she would get obsessed sometimes. 

Can you give us any -- you know, based on your 

knowledge or remembrance, any examples of that that come t 

Page 6( Page 61 

5 A6 Q7 A 

8 Q\ 

4 

5 A)’ 

6 Q Okay. 

7 A8 Q Okay. Was this a person who was very popular? 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q Okay. a’ 9 

11 A Yes. 

Page” 

1 

: 

March 19,1998 

Page 67 

14 MR. WISENBERG: Did you have a question? 

I5 -Ms. ‘H?RTH: That was my question. 

16 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

17 Q he there any Other relationships you can think of 

I8 thatfitthispattm? 

19 f-r Any other relationships that fi 

!O this pattern you’ve talked about, unobtainable and/or married 

!1 men? 

!2 A No. 

!5 A hhvhmm. 

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Q Do you know anything in particular about those 

relationships? 

A (,,OdtknowhOwsbemthim,I 

don’t runember. I know they’ve gone out a couple times. I 

know that they bad an e-mail relationsllip. I know that’s not 

what started the relationship. It was tfieir way of 

commu&&@fter they went out. 

And I think it was a sexual relationship, if I 

remember_ I know she wanted more. I don’t know if she 

wanted it to be monogamous, but I know whatever he was 

getting from her wasn’t enough for her, and she expressed 

that, and it frustrated him, and I think he blew her off. 

Q Okay. And you’d mentioned somebody else. Do you 

know anything about that? 

A - 

QAllright. 

A_ 

Q All right. But you’re not in a position to say 

whether or not that fit this pattern you’re talking about? 

A- AsfarasIknew,hewasasingle-Iknowthathe 

was older~than her, but from what I knew, he was available, 

and he was interested. _ 

Q Okay. Now, do you have any knowledge, based upon, 

obviously, what she discussed with you at the time, whether 

or not the relationship with the President faltered because 
4448 

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of this obsession you’ve talked about, as opposed to jl 

generally finding out from her, “I’m frustrated because I’m 

not seeing him as much”? 

Can you connect it in any way, in terms of what she 

told you, to this behavior of hers that you’ve seen ove: 

time? 

A I think I perceived it from her depression and 

frustration. I know they’ve had conversations, she told me, 

where he made an effon to end it, and she would cry and g< 

angry. And I would ask her, “HOW did he react?” And she 

said, “It made him angry,” that he would get frustrates 

Q Did she ever tell you that the President ever 

yelled at her? 

A No. 

Q Did she ever tell you that the President said 

something to this effect, “If I had known that you were goir 

to be like this, I never would have gotten involved wit 

you”? 

A No. 

Q You mentioned that she showed you a gift of a cigar 

with a presidential seal on it? 

A Yes. 

Q Did she ever tell you whether there was any 

significance to the cigar gift other than the seal on it? 

A No. 

1 Q 

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presidential trinkets? 

A I’ve seen boxes of M&Is. 

Q And they were presidential M&MS? 

A Yeah that I think Nel gave her. 

Q Okay. 

A I got them when I visited. ‘I don’t know if from 

Nel or from her, I don’t remember. 

Q Did she ever say that anyone had warned her, 

jokingly or not, “You better watch out or you’re going 

become another Paula Jones”? 

A I don’t remember. 

Q You’d remember something like that, don’t you 

think? 

A Yeah, I would remember. 

Q Are you in a position to tell us, based on your 

knowledge of Monica, the impact her parents’ divorce had o 

her? 

A I don’t know firsthand. I’d met her right after 

they separated. But I have friends that knew her before and 

say that she had gained a lot of weight. 

:t 

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70 

Did Monica smoke cigars, to your knowledge? 

Not regularly. 

But she did occasionally? 

She did. 

Did she ever tell you about or show you any othc :r 

rlti69 

Ist 

Pagcm March 19,1998 

Page 71 

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I know that she’s a sensitive and emotional person. 

I’m sure it wasn’t easy. But I don‘t have anything to 

compare it to. 

Q Because you didn’t see her before. 

A Right. 

Q Do you know her to be - you said sensitive and 

emotional. Do you know her to be manipulative at all? 

A No. 

Q Did she ever mention to you seeing a counselor or 

therapist? 

A I know she had a therapist in Los Angeles that she 

would see regularly, and I know when she moved to Portland, 

they had phone sessions. And I know that - I think it 

continued even after she came here. 

Q All right. So that’s obviously long term. That 

would have gone through several years of college - 

A Yes. 

Q - before college and - 

A It definitely started -- I don’t know, actually, if 

it was high school. It could have been. I know she was in 

Los Angeles when it started 

Q Okay. 

A I know she finished high school there and began 

college there, so it’s hard to tell. 

Q m right. 

Page i. 

1 A But I think it was post-high school. 

2 Q So first she saw her personally, based on your 

3 knowledge, and then after she moved to Portland and after 

4 DC, there were phone sessions; is that correct? 

5 A Mm-hmm. ButIknowitalsowasn’tasregularwhen 

6 shemovedaway. ~waswhensknee&dlter,shewouldcall. 

7 Q Okay. 

8 A Where before there were scheduled appointments. 

9 Q Do you have any general remembrances or impressions 

0 about the significance of this therapist on her life? 

1 A I know that she told me what her therapist said, 

2 andI- remember thinking she was nuts and not agreeing 

3 with what - 

4 Q The therapist? 

5 A Yeah. 

6 Q What did she say the therapist said? 

7 A Well, I know that she had written some books. I 

8 didn’t read them, and I don’t know what they’re called, but I 

9 know that they vmc about sex, and thy mrc made for women, 

0 Ithink. 

1 I knob that she is famous and that she sees 

2 celebrities, people who are impottan~ I know that she was 

3 not cheap. 

4 Q What was her name? I 

5 A Irene Kasorla, Dr. Irene Kasorla. I 
4449 

MUM-PZif?P March 19. 1998 

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Page 71 

Q And when you said that you thought she was nuts 

the therapist was nuts, based on what? And, I take it, you 

don’t mean that in a technical sense necessarily. 

A No. 

Q Okay. Based on what Monica had told you she said, 

was this based on things Monica told you she generally -- she 

said, in general, the therapist, or advice that she would 

give to Monica, or both? 

A Well, it was my opinion, based on what Monica said 

Monica didn’t think she was -- 

Q I understand it’s your opinion, but is it based on, 

in other words, things like, “Well, my therapist, based on 

her books, thinks this about, for instance, relationships”’ 

Or was it, “My therapist said I should do this”? 

In other words, was it based on the personal advice 

the tbempist gave to Monica that you thought the therapist 

was nuts or -- 

A I don’t -- I don’t think she gave her advice. I 

think she analyzed actions she - after Monicra did whatever 

she did. 

Q Okay, well, then analysis. In other words, would 

SkA Sometimes she reprimanded her and sometimes she 

encouraged her. But, to me, whatever Monica was doing, 

obviously, to me, it wasn’t healthy, and I felt that her 

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Page 74 

therapist wasn’t helping the situation. 

Q Okay. In other words, her therapist did not - she 

told you what she told her &rapist, for instance, about - 

well, let’s strike that 

Her therapist did not disapprove, apparently, of 

some of her relationships or some of her a&ions as much as 

maybe you did or some other friends? 

A I’m~~thso~ OfthemShedhppved. 1 

lunun~h4onicabcingfnlstiiited,thcsamewayskwouldgct 

frustrated with me or other girlfriends. She felt like she 

wasbeinglecturedat,andIthinkthatshereadedthatway 

to her therapist, too. 

It just didn’t -- whatever they were doing, it 

wasn’t helping. Nothing ever changed it. It may have been 

Monica’s not wanting to make the effort., but it just - to 

me, her focus was sex and her - 

Q Whose focus? 

A The focus of this therapist - 

Q Okay. 

A - was sex and self-esteem, and I don’t know if 

that‘s what created this connection in Monica’s bead of sex 

and self-esteem, or she encouraged it, or if she looked for a 

specific therapist who specialized in it. I don’t really 

know. But it just seemed to be the practice to -- if it 

would make you feel better, do it. 

Page 7 

1 Q Okay. 

2 A As I remember it_ 1 just remember thinking it w; 

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silly. 

Q All right. The first thing, though, that I want to 

try to get at is, your kind of somewhat negative asrzssmt~~ 

of the therapist/counselor, I take it, was based on both 

specific things that she told Monica about Monica as well as 

just the general theories of this therapist? 

A I don’t understand 

Q Okay. In other words, what I’m trying to get at - 

not very well - it seems that some of your negative altitude 

towards the therapist - I’ll break it down -- was based upon 

what Monica is telling you the therapist is telling Monica 

about her -- 

A - Yeah, yes. 

Q All right I just won’t go any further than that. 

Did Monica tell you that she told the therapist 

about the relationship with Andy? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. And did Monica tell you that she had told 

the therapist about the relationship with the President? 

A I don’t think so. 

MS. WIRTH: Can I ask something? 

MR. N’ISENBERG: Yes. 

MS. WIRTX You don’t think she told you that, or 

Page 7t 

1 you don’t think that - 

2 THE WITNESS: I don’t think she told me that. 

3 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

4 Q If you could desaibe for us, based on your 

5 knowledge, not only what you’ve seen of it, but what Monica 

6 hastoldyouandhowsbthasacted,ifyouwoulddescribefo~ 

7 us the relation&p of Monica Lewinsky with her mother 

8 A Oh, I know’they’re very close. They both like to 

9 shop. Ibeybothhkethetheater. Iknowthatthey-they 

0 have a lot of similar intemsts, and so they’re each other’s 

1 companion when they go out. 

2 They’ve always lived together, except for the two 

3 years Monica was in Portland. And from what I knew, she 

4 shared a lot with her mom. 

5 Q They confided in each other a lot? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q She was closer with her mother than her father? 

6 A Definitely. 

9 Q Any particular reason when this thing broke that 

3 you called the f&her, or tried to contact the father as 

I opposed &I the mother? 

2 A Yeah, there were a coup& reasons. He was closer. 

3 I had his number. 

1 Q Closer physically to you. 

5 A Yeah 
4450 

Page 7’ 

1 Q Geographically. 

2 A Geographically, yes. And I had his number for when 

3 Yonica stays there when she’s in town, and I didn’t have her 

4 mother’s phone number. 

-c And the last contact I had had with her was just 

6 ‘&is past Thanksgiving, and I think I had called January -- 

7 the day that this came out, in mid-January, the 21st, I 

8 think, I called, and the last time I had seen Monica was at 

9 his house. We had had dinner and -- 

0 I’m very comfortable with her dad and her stepmom, 

1 and when she’s - they’ve invited me over while she’s not in 

t town. They make an effort to have a relationship with me 

3 also, kr stepmother and father, and it just seemed 

4 appropriate to call 

5 Q No special reason or other. 

6 A No. 

7 Q You have mentioned that some of the reporters, ox 

B at least one reporter told you that Ginsburg had given you 

? the green light to talk to them; is that correct? 

1 A Yes. 

I Q Did you ever confinn, directly or indirectly, 

2 whethey or not that was true? 

1 A No. I didn’t care. I didn’t want to tell her. 

I Q Did you know Ginsburg personally? 

5 A No. 

Multi-Page TM March 19,1998 

I 

7 Pqz 79 

1 Q Did Monica ever say or do anything to make I;OU 

2 think that that had changed, Betty’s knowledge or :x,-k 

3 thfZl-CZOf? 

4 A No. 

5 Q What did she tell you about the nature of her 

6 relationship with Betty Currie? 

7 A 1 know that they were friends. I know that tkre 

8 were times when she would go to the office to see Betty. IO 

9 visit. 

10 Q In other words, just to visit Betty, not just to - 

11 not just as a prelude to seeing the President? 

12 A Yes. I know she was fond of Betty. 

13 Q Did - I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you were still - 

14 

15 A I’m txying to remember more what I knew abut 

16 Betty. That’s it 

. 17 Q Did Monica ever express any fear to you, concern 

1 I8 ever about somebody finding out about the relationship? 

1 I9 A No. 

I d 20 Q And &I might have answered this before the break, 

L rl 11 but on the - well, pardon me just a minute, and I’ll find 

c 

. !Z out if you were asked 

: !3 (Mr. Wise&erg conferred with Ms. Wirth.) 

; !4 BYh4SWIRTHz 

; !5 Q Pardon me for that diversion. 

, Page b” 

I think there was some testimony to the effect that 

the President - Monica told you the President was trying to 

disengage from tbe relationship at some point in time. Do 

you lecall that? 

Page 78 

Q Any particular reason you didn’t contact him? 

Because you also said that he had left a message, correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Ginsburg. 

A I didn’t contact h.im for the same reasons I didn’t 

amtact any of the media I just felt that I had nothing tc 

say that wouId make it better, and I had nothing - I felt 

that any attempt I would make to say something positive about 

bcr would just be manipulated anyway, and I didn’t want any 

media attention. I had just started a job. And I didn’t 

want to invite any more involvement than I already had. 

Q I take it Ginsburg’s message to you was completely 

nonsubstantive, it was just, “Get in touch with me”? 

A Yeah. 

Q He gave no hint of why. 

A Nothing. 

Q Okay. You mentioned that you - correct me if I’ve 

got this wrong. I think you mentioned that you had asked 

Monica whether or not Betty Currie knew about the 

relationship and Monica said no; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you remember when, in terms of the beginning, 

middle, end of the relationship, this conversation would have 

happened? 

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A I know it happened more than once. 

3 Q Okay. Did she ever say that he gave a reason for 

that? P 

A Ican’t xemember - I know that at least once k 

said that k loved his family. I know it happened more &an 

1 once. Not that be necessarily gave that reason, but I know 

1 he tried to end it more than once. 

I There may have been a time during the reelection, 

1 but I don’t know if - I remember Monica saying some&q 

1 about - that there was nothing during the reelection. I 

1 don’t know if it was because she was told there will be 

1 nothing during the reelection, or she assumed that tkt’s 

1 why, and it was a convenient excuse for nothing going on 

1 then. 

1 Q Do you recall Monica getting very disappointed 

2 because she thought she’d be able to come back right after 

2 the election aid it didn’t happen, around November, December, 

2 say, of ‘96? 

-. 

2 

2 

2 

A I remember her being disappointed for that mn. 

I don’t remember when in relation to the election. I 

MR. WISENBERG: Do vou have some? I 
4451 

Multi-Page”” March 19,1998 

Page 81 

1 BY MS. WIRTH: 

2 Q Just a few questions that we didn’t cover earlier. 

3 Did Monica ever tell you about any phone calls that 

4 she received from the President while she was at home? 

5 A 

6 Q 

7 A 

8 Q 

9 A 

0 Q 

I A 

2 Q 

3 A 

Yes. 

When did those phone calls occur, generally? 

Always in the middle of the night 

After midnight? 

Yes, usually. 

Would Monica be asleep sometimes? 

Sometimes. 

And would be the nature of those phone calls? 

Sometimes he wanted to talk and sometimes he wanted 

4 phone sex. 

5 Q And she tell you anything about specifically what 

6 happened during those calls? 

7 A She said that the ones that were sexual, she said 

8 that be would ask her to talk while be masturbated. 

9 MR. WISENBERG: Questions? 

0 A JUROR: Do you know whe&fzr at any point in time 

1 that Monica’s mom was seeing the same therapist? 

2 THE WITNESS: Was seeing the same therapist? 

3 A JUROR: Yes. 

4 THE WITNE.% I don’t know anything about that. 

5 MR. WISENBERG: All right. If there are no -- 

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Page 82 

A JLJROR: I have a question. You talked about 

therewassomoneinhighsc~landhowMoaicawouldmakt 

sure she befriended the mother and the family, and you also 

talked about Andy and how she befriended his wife and his 

kids. 

Would you say that this was m form of 

manipulation in order that she knew w&.re they wae and how 

tobearoundthem,and~couldbeintouchwiththeclosest 

people to these people in order to be around them? 

Like if she was invited to the family functions or 

she wanted to get in close with the mother and the family to 

be around this person? 

THE ms: I don’t know why she did it. I 

remember always thinking it was sick. Because it just - it 

never made anything better for her. It made her more 

depressed, more emotionally involved, that it - it just 

didn’t make it better. 

ldon’tknowifshehadanagenda. Idon’tknowI know that she genuinely cared for these people, and 

whatever she did to make a relationship with them, they 

mutually did the same, so -- 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Did she ever express any regret ever about 

involvement with -- either involvement with people who were 

married or, like in the case of Andy, involvement with 

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son&&y who was married and she’s got a relationship with 

the wife? Did she ever express any regret or kind of guilt 

over that to you? 

A No. 

MR. WISENBERG: Yes, ma’am? 

A JUROR: I just have one question. *You had 

mentioned that the President had tried to end the 

relationship several times with Monica. Did she ever tell 

you who revised the relationship again? Was it Monica or the 

President? 

THE WITNESS: I think it was Monica. 

A JUROR: She initiated it? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. And I don’t know if it was 

always him wanting to end the physical. I think, in addition 

to ending the physical, I think he wanted the visits to stop, 

too, and she would react the same way. 

A JUROR: As far as you know, who did she get -- 

you said that she got close with the family of whoever she 

was interested in. To the President, who was it she clos 

with while she was - 

i 

THE WITNESS: I think Betty. I don’t know that sh 

had a relationship with his wife, the President’s wife. 

MR. WISENEIERG: Going once, going twice. Speak now 

14 or forever bold your peace. 

IS (No response.) 

Page 83 

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MR. WISENBERG: All right. Thank you very much. 

Sometimes people come to the grand jury, and no matter how 

Page 84 

long they’re heae, it’s human natunz that you’ll remember 

something when you’re on the plane going back borne - 

THEwlTNESs: Mm-hmm. 

MR. WISENBERG: That you just didn’t think of. If 

thathappars,Iw0uldaslcyoutol&yourattomeyknowso 

tba.tbecanletusknow. 

THEWIMESS: Okay. 

MR. WISENBERG: And if there are no more questions, 

may the witness be excused and go back home? 

THE FOREPERSON: Yes, she may. 

THE WlTNESS: Thank you 

h4R. WISENBERG: Thank you. 

(The witness was excused_) 

(Whereupon, at 12:34 p.m., the taking of the 

testimony in the presence of a full quorum of the Grand Jury 

was concluded.) 

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