3013 

OK-302 (Rev. 8-19-94) 

- 1 - 

OFFICE OFTHEINDEPENDENTCOUNSEL 

Date of ttanscription 2/24/98 

On below date, investigating Agents identified 

themselves, stated the purpose for the interview, and interviewed 

ALEX "AL" G. NAGY at the Office of the Independent Counsel (OIC), 

1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.., Washington, D.C. NAGY provided 

the following: 

the Director of Telephone Services at the White House, Old 

Executive Office Building, Room 012, telephone number _ 

NAGY has been employed at the White House from October 

of 1973 until the present. NAGY advised that from October of 

1973 until November of 1978, he worked with the White House 

Communications Agency (WHCA) as a member of the United States Air 

Force (USAF). NAGY advised that he served in the USAF from 1959 

through 1979. NAGY's area of expertise was communications. 

After NAGY retired from the USAF he stayed on-at the White House 

as a civilian employee. 

NAGY stated that as Director of Telephone Services he 

is in charge of 15 employees who run the White House telephone 

system. This includes a staff made up of predominately switchboard operators and technical staff. NAGY advised that WHCA also 

provides telephone service at the White House. This service is 

provided by the United States Military, and it functions for 

national security reasons. WHCA has different telephone lines 

than White House telephone service running from the same 

telephones. 

NAGY advised that his current supervisors are VIRGINIA 

APAZZO, Assistant to the President for Management and Administration, and MIKE MALONE, Deputy Assistant to the President for 

Management and Administration. 

NAGY stated that in 1993, individuals in the CLINTON 

White House decided to modernize the White House telephone 

system. DAVID WATKINS and PATSY THOMASSON were in charge of 

Investigation on 2/19/98 at Washington, D.C. File # 29D-OIC-LR-35063 

SA 

by SA m Date dictated 2/20/98 

P 
3014 

OIC-302a (Rev. S-19-94) 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

ContinuationofOIC-3020f ALEX "AL" G. NAGY .o,, 2/19/98 *Page 2 

implementing this new system. NAGY advised that the system is an 

AT&T Network that is maintained by LUCENT TECHNOLOGIES. The 

system has voice mail, conference call, and caller identification 

capabilities. There are four different electronic telephone 

types in use, and it is known as a "Definity" System. These four 

telephones are as follows: (1) 85-10 (lo-button telephone); (2) 

85-20 (20-button telephone); (3) T.S.G. (lo-button), a higher 

security level telephone with no speaker capability, and (4) 

T.S.G. (20-button), same high security level telephone, with 20 

buttons. T.S.G. telephones are used for offices in the National 

Security areas, and the White House Office of Legal Counsel. The 

decision as to the type of telephone an office uses is made by 

that office. The AT&T representative that presently handles the 

account is LINDA REMICK. 

NAGY advised that President WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON 

places most of his telephone calls through the White House 

switchboard, although the President may make outgoing calls 

directly without using the switchboard. 

NAGY stated that White House switchboard operators 

handle incoming calls for the President. These operators have a 

list provided for them that names individuals to whom the 

President will talk. These operators are very good at voice 

recognition, and they also have other ways to determine the 

identity of the caller. (NAGY, for security reasons, would not 

comment more specifically.) This list of acceptable callers is 

typed up and provided by BETTY CURRIE and NANCY HERNREICH. This 

list is updated from time to time. NAGY stated he cannot recall 

MONICA LEWINSKY's name appearing on this list. 

NAGY advised that the telephone service's midnight 

shift is responsible for typing up a list of callers who called 

the President that day, and also a list of calls the President 

made through the switchboard. These lists are forwarded to 

CURRIE and HERNREICH each day. CURRIE and HERNREICH retain this 

log for a short time, but ultimately send it to the White House 

diarist. NAGY stated that no records are kept by telephone 

services. 

NAGY explained the caller identification function 

provided by this telephone system. With in-house telephone calls 

received, the caller identification function will note either the 
3015 

OK-302a (Rev. 8-19-94) 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

Continuation of OX-302 of ALEX “AL" G. NAGY .On z/19/98 .Page 3 

name of the caller or the position held by the caller. There is 

also the possibility that the caller has removed this function 

from his/her telephone, in which case the name or position 

identification appears as an asterisk. NAGY advised that an 

employee can fill-out a telephone service request form, send it 

to AT&T, and then LUCENT will service the telephone so that 

name/position will not appear on the telephone the person is 

calling. NAGY stated that, at times, this service is provided 

without the proper form being filled out. 

NAGY further explained that for calls coming in from 

outside the White House, the caller identification function will 

show what number the call is being placed from. Calls from 

beyond the local area will appear as "outside the area" on the 

caller identification function. 

NAGY advised that he was interviewed by the OIC in 

1996, concerning the Federal Bureau of Investigation Files 

Matter. Prior to being interviewed in 1996, NAGY was called by 

SALLY PAXTON and MICHELLE PETERSON of the White House Counsel's 

Office. Both PAXTON and PETERSON suggested NAGY get a lawyer for 

the upcoming OIC interview. NAGY refused, as he felt he did not 

need one. NAGY was interviewed without legal representation. 

NAGY believes that he fell out of favor with his 

supervisors because he spoke to the OIC without an attorney 1' 

NAGY recalled an incident (unrelated to his interview) in which 

JODIE TORKELSON reprimanded him shortly after his interview. 

NAGY felt the reprimand was unfair, and told TORKELSON that. 

NAGY also told TORKELSON that he was being treated unfairly 

because of his interview with OIC. 

* with NAGY. 

Prior to today's interview, MICHELLE PETERSON spoke 

Once again PETERSON told NAGY that he may want to get 

a lawyer for the interview. 

lawyexs to choose from. 

PETERSON suggested she had a list of 

NAGY told PETERSON he did not need a 

lawyer, and would not retain one. 

NAGY advised interviewing Agents of a few people that 

should be interviewed by the OIC. NAGY mentioned CHERYL HALL, 

who is a contracting officer at the White House. HALLisa 

computer specialist who works closely with AT&T. NAGY advised 

that MIKE MALONE; JOHN DANKOWSKY, Director of Administration; KIM 
3016 

OK-302a (Rev. 8-19-94) 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

Continuation of OK-302 of ALEX "AL" G. NAGY *On 2119198 .Rge _4_ 

HOLMES, and ~DRIE~ RUTLEDGE would all be worthwhile interviews 

to conduct. 

NAGY advised that there is no record of local telephone 

calls coming from the White House. 
UNIM STATE0 DISTNICT CXJURT 

mm TNS DrsTAIcT or CO-IA 

_-----*---------* 

11 II: 

aAND JwmY PAOCNSDINNS 

3017 

In rc: Grand Jury Proceedings 

I 

M&i-Page* Alex George Nagy, S-19-98 I 

Page? 

huBday, Kay 19, 1999 

Scprambet 19, 1997, -ncl.n9 at 10:14 4.1. beror.: 

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PROCEEDINGS 

~upon, 

ALEX GEORGE NAGY 

wascalkdasawituessanQafterhavingbeendulysworuby 

~F~of~~J~,~~~d~~ 

as follows: 

EXAMINA’TlON 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Would you state your name for tht xvcord, pIeast: 

Alex Chorgc Nagy. 

And could you spell your last leak for the nxmi? 

N-a-g-y. 

AndlefmetellyouthatmynamtisSoIWisenbcrg. 

we just met out in the h&way. 

A YCS. 

Q I’m an attorney with the office of h&penCkZIt 

Counsel. We have quite a few attorneys from the Offia 

ofIn@cndefltco~lbcretoday. MaryAnncWirthisto 

rny~~~l~~is~~~ JulieCozcoran 

.istomyright. JimCrancistokrright. Andwehavcibt 

grand jurors and the grand jury court reporter. 

Let me tell you a little bit about how the grand 

jury works, why we’re lm~ and what your rights and 

responsibilities an as a grand jury witness. Let M: tell 

youthatthisisnotanythingtobealalmcdabo*tbesearc 

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rights and responsibilities we read to evexy grand jurywitness. 

It would be nice if - every So of%en I’m going 

tell you Something and ask you if you understand and if you 

couldgiveusayes~aanomaybeorrestateyour 

q~~~~~~~~~~~-~~~~~ 

reporter can? pick up those. Okay? 

A Okay. 

Q Great. This is a federal grand jury imp-led by i 

United States distd judge for tht District of Columbia and 

~~dj~is~~~o~~~b~ 

perjury, posible obstruction of justice by Monica L.ewhlq 

andotkr~withrcspccttotbcJonesv.Clintonlaw~uit. Is 

that clear? 

Q Allright. Asagrandjuxywhcss,youhavc 

certain rights. One right is the priviIegc, it’s 9 plivilege 

against self-in-m. Do you understand that? 

A YES, I do. 

Q IfatruthfidanswertoaquestionwouIdtendto 

inchnina& you, you anzld say I’m not going to answer, 

I’m going to assert my privilege against self-in*on.” 

If I ask you who robbed the Gotham City Bank om 

April 3, 1995 and it turns out it was you, you could say, 

“I refuse to answer on tk grouncis that it might incriminate 

me.” Do you understand that? 

Page4 

1 A Yes,1 do. 

2- Q Okay. You have a right not to have an attorney in 

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htrt with you, but you have a right to have an attorney 

outside. 1 understand that you do not. 

A Idonot. 

Q Okay. ‘And I Qn’t believe you had an ‘attomcqr what 

you interviewed with our pcaple. Is that correct? 

A No, I did not. 

Q Allright. Weanboundbyanoathofsccrecy, 

the grand jurors, the attorneys, the court reporter. With 

certaincxc!eptionsthatarenxogniauiinlaw,wearcnot 

allowed to go and blab about what transpires here today. 

Do you understand that? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q You,howevez,~aotboundbyanoathofscaxcy. 

You can talk about whet happc4 here today. You don’t him 

to. but you can if you want Do you understand that? 

A Yts, I do. 

Q I’ll give you an cxampk of Some of the exceptions 

W~~~FBI~~~~d~~~~~~~~ 

us,inv&igativeagents lbeygettoknowwhathappasin 

fnontof~grandj~,butthey’~~alsobyanoathof 

stcncy. Doyouunderstandthat? - 

A Yes, I do. 

Q If a trial ever reSulted from this investigation 

Divot-sified Rtmorting Servicea Inc. (202) 296-2929 

Page 1 - Page 4 
3018 

Page! 

1 and you or anybody else who had appeared before the grand 

2 jury said something at trial different from what you saic 

3 hen today, then we could say, “Hey, Nr. Nagy, you saic 

4 scnncthingdifferentattbegrandjurythanyousaidhatat 

5 thz stand.” That would be a typical example. Do you 

6 understandthat? 

7 A YeS, 1 do. 

8 Q Allright. Theqjustforotherreasonqifthere 

9 isacompellingreason,acorzrtcanissueanor&fsayingyou 

1 o can disclose certain things that happened before a grand 

1 I jury. Doyouunderstandthat? 

1 2 A Yes,1 do. 

1 3 Q Allright. Youhavetotellthztruth Doyou 

1 4 understandthat? 

1 5 A Yes. 

1 6 Q Is there anything about your rights and 

1 7 responsibiIities as grand jury member that you don’t 

1 8 understand? 

1 9 A hWCM)qucstionS. IUnderstand. 

2 0 MR. WISENBERG: Pardon? 

2 1 MS. WIRTH: As a witness; 

2 2 MR. WISENBERG: Oh, what did I say? 

2 3 A JUROR: As a grand jury member. 

2 4 MR. WWZNBERG: I said member? I meant witness 

2 5 You are not a grand jury member. 

Page 6 

THE WRWE.SS: Okay. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q You understand that? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q Apparently I don’t, but you do, and that’s all that 

matters. But~t~~~of~~~~~~~ 

people who appear before the grand jury have different 

statuzs. Targets are people who the prosecu tormorcorless 

believzs there’s a high probability that person is going tc 

1 be indicted. You are not a target. Do you un* that? 

1 A Yes, I do. 

1 Q And a subject is somebody who is’ not at target 

1 status, this is an infoxmaf thing I’m tilling you about 

1 an informal breakdown of witness/subje&aqet. In the 

1 Department of Justice, basically anyone who has inf-tion 

1 relevant to a grand jury is a subject, which is a huge 

1 catcgoxy. Do you understand that? 

1 A Yes. 

1 Q Sowe’vegotaninf&nalsystemwhere~brwkit 

2 down betwzen ta%et, subject and witness; a subject being 

2 someonewhoisnotatargetbuttherearesubsta&al 

2 questions about some of their activity and th= grand jury 

2 wants to hear about it. Do you understand that? 

2 A Yes. 

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5 Q You're not a subject either. Do you un&rstand 

In re: Grand Jury Pamedings Ibklr Page” Alex George Nagy, 5-19-98 1 

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that? 

A Yes, I do. I 

Q Awitnessisjustsomeunewhocomesinandhaz 

informatiw~~anttothcgrandjurythattbey~ttobtar 

about. You are a witness. Do you understand that? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. Now, anything about our authority or your 

rightaandnzspo&bilitiesasagrandjurywi~tbatyou 

don’t understand? 

A No. 

Q Okay. And if there is anything that you don’t 

understand,anyofourquestionsthatann’tveryclearti 

you,justaskusandwewiIlrephrase&m. 

A okay. 

MR. WISENBERG: I’m going to haad over for 

questioning, hand it over to my c&aguc, Ms. Wirth 

And what is your CuRieflt job tlrze? 

I’m tht d&ctor of the White House telephone 

service. 

Q Andhowlonghavr:youhadthatjob? 

BY MS. WIRlHz 

Good nxming, Mr. Nagy. Wke am you employed? 

I’m empIoycd at the White.House. 

~d~l~~~you~~~~~Ho~? 

since October of 1973. 

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A since- well, with title changes and stuff, siaae 

November of 1978. 

Q And (ut you in charge of White House telephone 

services? 

A Ye!& 18121. 

Q AndhavtyoubeenincbargeofitsinceNoven&rof 

‘78? 

A Yes, 1 have, with differcat titk that havt 

~~~~~~~ 

Q Andptiorto 1978,whatwasyourjobinthcWhit 

House? 

A IwaawitbtkWhiteHouseComn~uaicationsAgeney. 

IwaSintheIlliIitary. 

Q AndwhatbranchofthemiUuywueyouin? 

A United States Air Force. 

Q ~d~l~g~~~~~~F~? 

A Twentyyearsand16days,tobeucllct 

Q Now,whmyou~kcdforthcWhiteHousc 

GnllElti~Agarcy,that’!3knownaS~UXtCCt? 

A YCS,itiS. 

Q ~~~f~~~~~~‘7~~i~ 

functionsimiIartowhatwHcA’sfunctionistodayor 

diffmt? I 

A Similar,buttke’salotofaspectsthat’s I 

&an@. Alotoftksuppcuttheyprovidedmnowtuincd 1 

Page5-Page8 

Diversified Reportinn Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 
3019 

In re: Grand Jury Proceedings MuIt 

page9 

1 over to the staf? side, the administrative side. 

2 Q Okay. why don’t you tell the grand jury what the 

3 White House telephone services is? 

4 A Basically, the White House telephone servia, my 

S fesponsibiIitics are I overall manage tlx White House 

6 tClCpboneswitchboardandIlIlain~andscsutinizenconsS 

7 asfarasproccssingfortelcplxmenqutststoinstall 

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9 

~~~~~~~f~~~~Ho~ 

. 

I 0 Q ~yOut&CWeOftclcphoncSTViUXitlfht 

1 1 nsidenoe as wclI as tfr: White House business portion? 

1 2 A No,Idonot. 

1 3 Q WbosupervisesorwbooontrolstbcWbiteHouse 

1 4 msiden~telephones? 

1 S A l’hcWhiteHousercsidcncecomcauu&rthcushcrs 

1 6 offl~whichlxmrcsunderGarywaItersastheheadushcr., 

1 7 lbey have their own account for telepbones. 

1 8 Q So you have nothing to do with the residence 

1 9 phones? 

2 !O A OtherthanoccasionalIyseeingsomeoftheorders 

2 !l they put in to the t&phone offs% where AT&T maintains it. 

2 !2 Q What is Gary’s last name? 

2 !3 A w&XS. 

1 !4 Q %%hers? 

2 !S A W-a-l-t-e-r-s. 

Page 10 

1 Q Now, at the White House telephone services, how 

2 many employees do you sqxvise? About, 

3 A IndiIWtly, because I bavc other supervisoIT3 in a 

4 layer there, 13 for the telephone switchboard and 

S &tractors, there’s BeIl Atlantic which art approximately 

6 10 or 12 people, and then the.& AT&T and Lucent, which is 

7 about another maybe 22 people. I supervise them indirectly 

8 because they% contractors. 

9 Q Okay. And where is the switchboard located? 

1 IO A The switchboard is located in the Old Executive 

1 I1 Office Building, Room 02. 

1 i2 Q And these I3 switchboard employees, they work 

1 13 different shifts? 

1 14 A Yes. Tbey’n 24 hours a day, seven days a we&, 

I 15 365 days a year. 

I 16 Q Okay. And what is Bell Atlantic’s function? 

1 17 A Bell Atlantic provides basically telephone lines to 

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18 the White House. AT&T sad Luccnt provide the aluipmcnt, 

9 telephone instruments, et cetera. 

0 Q Okay. Now, tell the grand jury what WHCA is and 

1 how it’s distinct from the White I&rum telephone smrices. 

2 A Basically, WBCA is a military or&inization 

3 mpomible for providing Mecmmnunidons support to the 

:4 Commander-in-Chief, the President of the United States. 

:S obese are ab with ~1~~~ to DOD. They pIWide 41 his 

. . 

1-d P ag tTY 

Page 1’ 1 

t capabilities, whenver Ws at in the world. 

2 Q So whenever the Pnzsidcnt travels, WHCA pmvidcz 5 

3 his telephone service? 

4 A WHCA does provide his telepbone service. Cmec t. 

S Q ~d~~~c~of~~nowat~~~~ 

6 House? 

7 A I believe it’s Colonel Simmons, S-i-m-m-o-n-s. 

8 Q Do you know his first name? 

9 A Ithinkit’sJolmorJalceorsomcthinglikethat. 

.O Q Where does be work out of? 

.l A He works out of Anaco&& Naval Station. Thy have 

.2 their building there. 

.3 Q Okay. You’ll have to forgive my ignorance on this. 

.4 DccswncAhavelikeqaratetelcphones,telephonelins? 

S A Yts, they do. 

6 Q Dcyouknowwhethuthuc’sacanierforthcWUCA 

7 linesandwboitis? Ifyouknow. 

8 A ~b~i~y-~~~~AT&T~d~ 

9 Atlantic also and some of their, support they provide 

!O themselvcswhenitgetsintosxureandclasaif~mattas. 

!f The n~~l~i~ed areas are provided by contractors, tb e 

!2 sameasours. 

!3 Q Okay. I’m going to get into this a little bit mom 

!4 l~,b~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

!S that arc known as WHCA tclcuhones aud other telenb that 

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are known as White House t&phone scrviazs, or does i t 

~~~bu~~p~~a~~~ 

line you get? 

A The only separate in stnlmenfasfaraswitbthe 

White House staff, are secured te4cphoncs. The WEA lines 

mayappearonastaffphone,asquatebutton. Itwouldhe 

like a direct line going to the WHCA switchboard, et aQra 

Q Where is the WHCA &t&board? 

A That’s located at AnacosGa in tlxir building the 

illSO. 

Q Okay. Now, who are your mncrvimrs? Who Q yuu 

report to? 

A Well, I’ve bad numerous ones. 

Q Right now. 

A Right now, it’s hdr. Cohn Dmkowski, who tizn 

reports - ht’s a special assistant to tht R&dent aud 

Dim% of White House Operations. He just took the &ice 

18 over1 Januaxy. HcmportsdimXlytotheassistanttothc 

9 President, Virginia Puzo. Sk’s fairly new, too. 

0 Q Canyoutellthcgrandjurywbe&rsome&g 

1 happeuediu1993withrespccttotheWhiteHourct&phooe 

2 ~~~ofit~g~~ 

3 A Yes, it was revamped in 1993? 

4 Q And who was in charge of that? 

5 A At the time, it was Mr. David Watkins. 

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13. rc: Grand Jury Pro-gs Mull 

Page 1: 

1 Q And was Patsy Thomasson also involved? 

2 A Patsy Thomasson came in later on. Yes. She wa! 

3 involved, too. 

4 Q And what happened to the White House telephone 

5 systemin 1993? Whatdidtheydotochangeit? 

6 A They basically, to put it in blunt terms, they 

7 changedevqthing. Futinanewtelephoncswitchin,had 

8 newixl!mmmtsputin. 

9 Q And what were tk results of their modcmization? 

o What chauges were implemented? 

1 A some of the services were offered as far as 

2 technology like call forwarding; Audix, new telephone 

3 ixwrummts that basically fed out of the telephone switch. 

4 It was up-to-date techuology. 

5 Q And voice mail, things like that? 

6 A Voice mail, which is the Audix. 

7 Q Ch,isthatwhatitis? 

a A Yes, that’s what it is. 

9 Q Okay. I didn’t know that. What about caller ID? 

0 A CalferID,aafarasca&.rIDperseinthe 

1 White House, on their instruments, you have a printout, a 

t display that shows the number that’s calling you. That 

3 is it. 

4 Q And that was one of the changes as well? 

5 A That was one of the changes. Correct. 

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Q Anything else that comes to mind in terms of 

changes? 

A Certain sensitive areas which I can’t go into, but 

basically nothing -- no number from the White House will go 

out where someone else could pick it up cm caller ID display 

and so on. Basically, their numbers are f’rozen in house. 

Q So if someone from the White House called - 

A Called you, for example, in one of your other 

government agencies, you would not -- there would be no - 

you wouldn’t know who was calling you, basically. 

. Q So they wouldn‘t show up on my caller ID. 

A No, they would not. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q But if you were calling within the White House, 

they would? 

A Certain offices, yes. That could be blocked out 

also. There’s some areas that it does not appear. 

BY Ms. wIRl-f% 

Q SoevenwithintheWhiteHouse,therearecertain 

areas that have chosen to block their caller ID? 

A Yes. 

Q Is the Resicknt’s caller ID blocked? Dd you know? 

If the Prekdcnt calls anyone within the White House, does 

something appear on the screen? Do you know? 

A It is blocked. 

Alex Gcorgc Nagy, 5-19-98 I 

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Q It is blocked? Has it always been blocked? 

A Well, prior to having &se &truments, you never 

had any indication of it. It’s always been blocked sine 

this admm&ration, this telephone system 

Q What is a TSG phone? What’s that stand for, fti 

of all? 

A Ire&ydon’tlmOwwhatitstandffor. Itcomes 

underthecontroloftheSecretservice,theirtechnical 

security division Basically, it’s a telephOne that has 

beqsay,modemi&sothat-itgetsintoasecurity 

area, basically, so that the phone can’t be tapped 

Youhavetwotypesoftelephones. YouhavearsG 

phoaewhichanuszdinscnsitivesnasandyouhave~ar 

teiephonesthatareusedinotbxareasandbasicallyaTsG 

phant,thtspcakaonitisnotactivattd~~that’sa 

possibility of getting into tapping. 

Q Okay. Andweretkm’rsGphonesintbeWMeHousc 

prior to this 1993 modernization? 

A No, them were not. 

Q AndtbeseTsGphonesamusedinwbattypesof 

offrces in the White House, just genemlly speaking. 

A %majorityofthemareintheWestWingofti 

White House. Tbae’s a few in the Old Executive OfTiee 

Building in sensitive areas. 

Q Aare they in the White House Counsel’s Off&? 

Page lr 

1 A k,thcys~~ 

2 Q Wasthatoneofthechaqesin 1993? 

3 A Yes, it was. Well, all the West Wing was &an@ 

4 in 1993. 

5 Q ~youknowwhorna&tbedecisiontop~t~Gphone 

6 in the White House Counsel’s Office? 

7 A To speak firsthand, I don’t know, but then was a 

B eornmittcethatwerkedongcttiagtknewpbonesystemwbic 

J hfr.WatkinswasinchaqpandPastyllwmamn wnsinchaqc 

3 ofitandinordcrtogetaom&ingliketbat,itwouldbave 

I togothroughtktectnli~aecuri~division. Ithinktbey 

2 hadbiginputintoitfortheaecurity~ 

3 Q Andthetechnicalsecmitydivisionispattofthc 

1 secretservice? 

5 A Yes, it is. 

5 BY MR. WI!%NBER(i: 

7 Q ~yausaythty~abigimpacfyau~ 

8 Watkins andlhomasson? 

9 A No. Well - 

0 Q ~thetechnicalsecur&division? 

1 A Ihe technical security pcupk probably gave tbe 

2 guidelinesofwllatlmdtobewlosswbatkindofpboneshad 

3 beinwhatarta 

4 Q ButitwouldhavetogothroughWatkinsand 

s 7homasso&youthink,basedonyourknowkdgeoftheir 

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1 involvement? 1 A Ycs,tkyare. 

2 A Ohyes. Yes,itwouldbavetogothrougbtbem. 2 Q Do they have WHCA capability as well? 

3 Tbq would have to be involved in it. 3 A Yes, they do. 

4 BY Ms. WIRTH: 4 Q And we’re excluding the pantry phone, tbougb, 

5 Q DoyoulmowwbointbeWbiteHouscmadetk 5 talkingjustabouttbepbones6 &&&~rrsvunp~phootsystan? WasitDrwidW&insor 6 A Yes, 1 Understand. 

7somtmne~yp? 7 Q So on those phones, if tk President wanted to use 

8 A LikeIsaid,DavidWatkinswaskadingfhtteam. 8 aWHCAliat,wouldhejustprcss;nrothabuttonth:phone? 

9 Ireallycan’t nrmrmber-IItherewasaa tma& 9 A YeS,he WOdd. 

0 thatitcamcaahighupaspossiblehecausetkzc~~ 10 Q That’s how that works? 

1 co&mmsyaboutk 11 A Yes. 

2 Q Wbatdoymimean? 12 Q And tkn tkre are otkr buttons, obviously, on tb 

3 A WelI, I’m not sure exactly when it bappened, but 13 pbonesthataUowhimtogothroughWhitcHourcteIephone 

4tbuewasacmmmmt atonetimeinoneoftherrX!e@sthat 14 selvias? 

5 thedecisiontohavetbepboocsystem,ancwphatsystan, 15 A Yes. 

6 camefnrmashighupasfarasitcculdcomefrom,highupin 16 Q Do you know based on what the President would 

7 tkecMon. 17 decide to use a W’bite House telephone services line as 

8 BY MR WEZXBERG: 18 opposed to WHCA? Do you know what the basis for thal 

9 Q Do you remember who said that? 19 decision would be? 

0 A IbelieveitwaSh&.Ihomasson. Tbenwuesomany 20 A Basically,Itbinktk~CXlinewouldbemomir 

J matingsonthisthing,goingwayba&thisisb&in 1993. 21 lincwithhiscapacityasCammaada-in-Chief,~~bly 

2 Q Why was it considered controversial? 22 makeacalloverseas toaheadofsta~tocallmayheother 

3 A well, if YOU remember, at that time, tkre was a 23 cabinet members, et cetera. It wouldn’t be in the daily 

4 lotofpressaboutrwampiogthephonesystemsndif~ 24 routim of the administrative type. That would go on thr 

5 wasreallyaneedtodotbat. 25 other side. That would go on my side, through the White 

Page 18 Page 2( 

1 BY Ms. w?RlH: 1 House operators. 

2 Q I wonder if you could talk for a moment about tbc 2 Q I’m going to ask a lot of questions about this, but 

3 phonesint&OvalOfIiceitaclf. AndbytheOvalOffiae,I 3 justforthe moment,onthe~cxline,couldhecallqhody 

4 include the President’s Oval Office, the study, tk dining 4 anywhere in the world on the WCA line? 

s room. Idon’tknowiftbaearephonesinthere,butq’be 5 A Yes, he could. 

6 you could tell us. Just the ovai Office complex, that arta 6 Q And could he do that by dialing direct? 

7 that belongs to the President. An: you familiar with the 7 A No on the WHCA line. It would go into a WHCA 

8 phones in tkre? 8 signal corps operator. 

9 A I’m familiar up to a certain point. Yes. There 9 Q So he’s not capable of dialing dinxt himself on a 

0 could have been SOXE changes to it that I’m not aware of, 10 WHcAline? 

I but -- 11 A Not on a WHCA line. 

2 Q Firstoff,canyoute~uswbcretbcpboncsare 12 Q Okay. what about the White House telephone 

3 located in the Oval office complex? Obviously tkre’s one in 13 tices line ? Is he capable of dialing direct by himself 

4 the Oval OfIke itself, right? 14 witbout going tbrougb the switchboard? 

5 A ‘lhem’snvointheOvalOfXce,oneonthcdeskand 15 A we&fet’SpUtitthiSWay. Thtre’Sahethat 

6 onebytbecouch 16 khastotheswitchhoardwhichthzopamtoranswersand~ 

7 Q Okay. 17 woulddialcalls. Andtkreamalso-hebassomeothc 

8 A Thereare-there’soneinthestudy,tkre’sone 18 lincaonthatphone. Idon’tknowwhattknumberaareand 

9 intbediningroomandoneintbebatbroom. 19 so on. Then he bqs the capability of probably dialing direct 

0 Q Okay. And are you familiar with the pantry? 20 imywkre he wants to dial‘ 

I A -PanOy,yeS. 21 Q Okay. Now, the President has two secretaries, 

z Q kdXZat.fkphO~in~m? 22 comxt? Betty Currie and Nancy Hemreicb? 

3 A Yes, but that’s not the - that’s for the steward 23 A ,No, they’re not called secn%ries, but f*: has two 

4 Q Okay. Now, those phones, are they White House 24 people. 

5 tele&one semices phones? 25 Q Sitting right outside his office, 

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In re: Grand Jury Proceedings Mull 

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1 A YeS. 

2 Q Tky probably have fancier titles. 

3 A Yes, they do. 

4 Q Okay. And they have their own separate telephon 

5 limS,cornxt? 

6 A Yes, they do. 

7 Q Okay. Does the President have numbers distinct 

8 fmmthosenumbemonhisowntelcphonelinethataeaWbite 

9 House telephone services numbers? 

1 0 A ~~lievekhastWOIWIlbersthatan:hiSOWn. 

1 1 Itshowslinelandline2. Idon’tknowwhatthcactual 

1 2 numbers are. 

1 3 Q Okay. And those presumably could be dialed dimet 

1 4 fronlarlywbaoifsom#m: knnvwhatthosemlUltGrswerC? 

1 5 A Ye& 

1 6 Q Andifsomume calledthoscmrmh~thcy 

1 7 wouldnotgotbzuugbtbcWhitcHouseswi~tbcywould 

1 8 ringdire&yintheovalOffice? 

1 9 A Directly in the Oval Office. I’m not sum. They 

2 o may be pi&xi up on Betty Cunie’s and Nancy’s phone also. 

2 1 Q But you’re not sure of that? 

2 2 A I’m not. There’s been so many changes, I’m not 

2 3 really sure about that. 

2 4 Q Okay. Do you have any idea what percentage - if 

2 5 youknow,wilatpcruntageoftimethePresick!ntusestbc 

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White House ~A+OEC savices liw es opposed to WXCA? AIC 

there any statistics on that that you know? 

A No, I don’t. 

Q ArethewHeAlinesgcacrallyviewedasmoresecurc 

than the Wldte House telephone ScNices lines? 

A No. Not if they’re using tht regular 

administrative type line. The only secure line is the accure 

telephone line the President has. That’s on a separate 

phone. Sotl.~WbitcHousc’slinesareticallytbesame~ 

our side, the administrative side. They’re dial lines that 

are connected to the operator. 

Q Are they billed differently? 

A Billed differently? 

Q Yes. 

A Oh,yes,ttxzyam. Ourlincsarcbillcdtothc 

White House and, of course, WHCA’S lines are billed to U’HCA 

by the eomractors, Bell Atlantic and AT&T or whatever. 

Q Anddeesthemilitarypayfortboselines,thewric!i 

lines? Do you know? 

A Yes. 

Q Sothebillsforthe~cxlinesarcpaidforbythc 

military? 

A YeS. 

Q And the White House setiees tekspbone lines, the 

bills are paid for by the White House? 

i- Page= Alex George Nagy, 5 19-98 

Page 23 

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A By the White House. Coxxet. 

Q Who at the White House is responsible for paying 

th bills cm tht White House &@one services lines? 

A It goes to the acEministrative offree, Room 1, and 

there’sapersonthemthathandlesrdlthebilling,getsti 

bills, but ultimately tk msponsibility for it comes un&z 

Mr. Dankowski right now, the special assistant to tk 

Pzcsident ark! %ectzx of W-hire Harse Operations. But hcbrr 

astafTintkretobcvariousfhxionsandthereism 

individualthathaadlesallttrebillscomingintotheWhitc 

House. 

Mrs. Betty Ubbens, U-b-b-e-n-s. 

U-b-b - 

e-n-s. 

Okay. And where is she located? 

She’s located in Room 1 of the Old Executive OfRi 

Building. 

Q Okay. Does she get t&phone bills that look like 

thet&phoncbiUsthattherestofusgetintcrmsoflikc 

tollcahandsoon? 

A No. 

Q How does it work? 

Page 25 

I A ~isb~i~y~~ofb~s~~~ 

2 bills for the equipment, and that’s like t&phonc 

3 instrume~ arid any 0th equipment that’s utilized which 

4 come for the White House, come dimetly to me. 

5 Q h theequipment rented? 

6 A It’s own&. 

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A Yts. 

Q Okay. Sowhcncwx you get new equipment the&s a 

bill that comes to you? 

A Well, there’s a monthly bill for it because of 

maintcnan~cbarges,etcetpa wtmxxcrncwinstnrmcntsan 

put in or t&m out, we’re billed for that, so yyc have bills 

generated every month. 

Q Andthosebillsgotoyou? 

A Theygotomei. AndIvuifythcmbascdupontbt 

WOt%Of7kJStbat~hVCSUbXlliUCdtomakcSUICthE.ttbCy 

arevalidbills IinturntaketbemuptoRoern1andgive 

tkZUltoMrs.Ubttetl$wtioi.t3turnp~ itaftersbegaz 

~~Of~.~~~~~f~ 

over to the financial management organization of of%13 

administration to be paid. 

Q Okay. Now, what ahout for telephone eaIls? How cb 

those bills work? 

A Tekdone cab are kind of uniuue. You bay for I 

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Page 25 Page 27 

like local calls and local service, you pay for the line 

itself and that includes the cost in it. There’s no charge 

basically for local calls. 

Your long distance and international calls, your 

long distant within the United State& continental United 

Sbta, go over t&: federal teIecommunications system, FIS 

2000. 

Your international calls go out directly to 

wherevertbey’recalhng,buttheygooutover& 

trunks. I’m trying to maybe get in layman’s terms. 

certainlinesthatgooutoftheteleplxmeswitchthatgo 

to international. 

Q IguessthequestiODIhavEisthatIllOstOf:uswhcn 

wegetatElephonebill,wegetalistingoftoflcalfsthat 

we’vemacletbatmonth. DcestbeWhiteHousegetsomething 

like that as well when it gets billed for its telephones? 

A Yes, it does for the international calls. 

Q What about long distance within the U.S.? - 

A No, unless then’s problems, the Frs system is 

~tlmitwouldgoovaaMmmsc ialn&work. TkFrsis 

a flat rate that’s generated by PI% GSA controls that 

contract with them and I believe Sprint provides that savice 

tous. 

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A No. -Ikreareaolongdistanaremrdsunkssthey 

keep them tkmselves of the calls tlzy make. 

Q Hasthereeverbeen-well,letmeaskthenext 

question. DoyouknowifthcrcareanyrtXoXlskeptonlocal 

calls made from the telephones in the White House, including 

those in the Oval Office? 

A No, I don’t know, but it could be. I man, the 

Office tixmSclvts, ~omeme in that office, a stcntary, could 

keep track of calls that they made or received. 

Q But aside from manually, I’m talking about an 

electronictypeofncordofevrrytimeaphaocisdialed 

fNxltbtwhitCIIoMc. Doyoukl3owifthacwucruXXIslK!pt 

ofthosecalls? 

A No. 

Q You don’t know or there aren’t? 

A There aren’t any records of each time. _ 

Electronically. 

Q Okay. So long distance, the long distance carrier 

on the White House telephones is who again? 

Q Has there ever been any discussion of whether it 

would make sense for security reasons to have records of 

cvuytim~whitcHwrsekpickcd~and~numbcris~? 

A No, I’m not aware of that there’s ever been 

discussion of that. Th: umtraty - maybe the opposite, I’d 

think. 

BY MR_ WISENBERG: 

Q WhataboutlikeaperXmSOmewhereitithtWhite 

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A Right now, it’s AT&T, but, like I said, FIS has 

been contracted out to Sprint by GSA, so we have a mixture 

thexe. 

Q Do you know if independent of the billing service! 

w&hertkmaterecordskeptoflongclistancefzaUsmadeon 

the White House telephone services telephones within the 

United States? 

A YeS,there~IIXOrdS~SOme~aS. Therem 

somelinesiosomeareasthatdonotgothrougfiourteiephone 

switch. They are fed independently directly from a downto~ 

office that Bell Atlantic may have. 

And 1 think on our side, there’s a few on the north 

grounds which are utilized basically for our media liaison 

when they have events out the coinciding with the pnss, 

there’s a separate line. 

Otherlines,therearesomelinesthatareinthe 

rrsidara which I don’t know th: uumbaa, but Mr. Walters, bc 

would get a bill for that. Them lines would be like your 

home telephone bill. 

. Q And them are long distana records on those? 

A Bell Atlantic would have that and AT&T. 

Q What about in the Oval Office, those telephones? 

And then let’s include also Betty Cunie’s lines and Nancy 

Hemreich’s iines. Would there be long distana nmrds kept 

on those? 

Page 28 

1 House, in th: White IIouse it&f, somebody who wok that, 

23&o is abusing the system in the sense of making too XIDny 

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long distance calls? 

BY MS. MRTII: 

Q #-whatifthere’S8harassingphonedmadefI’Olll 

someone in tk White House? 

BY MR. LVISENEERG: 

Q Well, let’s do the fust example fust. Someone is 

abusing the long distance capability. There’s basically no 

way of doing anything about that? 

A No, because there’s no way to know that. lt 

doesn’t identify where the call is coming fkom per phone. 

All it shows on the bill, long distana or whatever, is the 

trunlcitwentoutonandthm’snowaytotracktbatbecam 

you could have - you know, amz trunk could feed numemus 

lines. 

Q Soyoumightknowthattklmgdistanaphmebill 

is going way up and people an abusing it, but you couldn’t 

pinpoint it. 

A You couldn’t pinpoint it. And them’s times, you 

know, you have a high bill, but it depends on what is going 

on, too, at the time. Business travel or whatever. 

Q Whatabout-theotherexamplewouldbesomtbody 

~~~~~Ho~is~~~ph~~s~ 

somebody else within the White House. 

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I Is that the example you were coming up with? 

2 Ms.wTRTH: Yes. 

3 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

4 Q Again, unless you could detect -- would there be 

5 anywaytodetectthatotherthanby6 A Weti, if someone in the white House is making 

7 harassing calls to another phone in the White House, it 

8 depends what phone they’re usin& where it’s coming from. 

9 Like I said, there will be a visual display on the phone 

0 receiving the call. 

1 The policy on harassing calls, basically, or 

2 threateningcalls,isthey’~refen-cdt.oSecretServiccand 

3 Sec.tetService,theydothcirthing,whatevertheydoto 

4 check out them calls. 

5 MS. WRTH: Okay. 

6 A JUROR: I have a queStiOn. 

7 In my office, we have it sounds like the exact same 

B system that you’re talking about with Au&x where you have 

9 the display window and if someone inonedepartmentinthe 

3 White House calls, maybe somebody, say Betty Cur&, their 

1 name will flash across the printout. 

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma’am. 

3 AJUROR: Now,tbcsysteminours,oursystan,wlm 

4 weprogT2unthenames into the extensions and what have you, 

s we also have the capability of doing a printout daily, if 

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I necessary. And I know we do, to safeguard ourselves from 

2 employees calling Florida four or five times a day and 

b sometimes we’ll do a study from it. Do you not have that 

I printout capability? 

i And it’s normally right where they have the - 

i where you can program in the person’s name to the extension. 

1 Do you not have that capability of pulling up that program 

I that will give a detail of any time whoever you call picks 

1 up? Not within tbe complex, but outside of the complex. 

D THE WITNESS: You’re talking about the detailed 

1 calling. 

2 AJUROR: Yes. 

3 THE WmESS: It is in the system., but it is not 

1 utilized. Basically, it is not turned on in our system. 

5 It’s one of the things that was not required. 

5 As far as addressing about - you’re talking 

7 aboutnameswmingup,~itispt~ataczxnral 

3 point which Lucent or AT&T does that for US, we give them 

3 an order. Some people do not want their nties or their 

1 numbers because of their private line, so they might have 

I an asterisk. 

1 You have to put something them, so usually it’s an 

! asterisk they have. SOme people just have -- it’s an 

i outgoing line which you can’t call in to, so it depends where 

j it is and who it is. 

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I BY MR. EMMICK: 

! Q Has that aspect of the telephone system, has it 

I beenturaedoffforrvaorhasitbeen~offonlysina 

Il993oristhatoncofthcchangcs? 

i A No. It’s notuniquetothesystem Even prior, 

i thesystemwehadpriortothisone,itwasthere,butit 

1 wasneverutilizedattheWh.iteHouse. 

I Basically, I guess, the decision was from 

1 se!curityreasons,secmtservicegotinvolvedinthat 

3 aspectbecauseIthinkthere’safallacy,ifyouhave 

I it on, it also means that your stuff could go outside, 

2 your numbers would out if you called outside the 

3 complex. 

4 Q when you say that it’s in the system but it’s 

5 nottumedon,I’mnotallthatcomputerliterate,but 

5 insomewaysthatmakesmethinkttlattbcinfdmm8y 

7 bcstorcd- but it simply isn’t easily access&l 

3 or isn’t readily aecesaible. An&a way of &inking about 

? it would be that it isn’t stored at all. 

1 So my question to you is is the information just 

I completely not stored or is it stored but simply isn’t 

1 available? If you understand what I nzan. 

I A Yes. Yes, I do. F&ally, togetintoit, it’s 

I not-Ibelieveit’snotstored. I’mreallynotintothat 

i function of the computer. 

Pagem Alex George Nagy, 5-W-98 

Page31 

1 BY MR. EMMICKz 

2 Q I wasn’t quite sure what you mant when you said 

3 thatthedetailedcallingisinthesystambutit’snot 

4 turnedon. 

5 A It is in our telephone switch tha! AT&T provides t( 

6 us, but is not activated, it is not utihzed, it is not 

7 required, it’s not part of the contract to do it. 

8 Q Whatwouldchangeifyouweretobaveittumed(m? 

9 A Well, somamefi-omadministmtiarwouldhavetogo 

o back, probably our contracting off&r or -, and 

1 renegotiate with AT&T and Lucent to get that feature 

2 activated. 

3 Q Andifitwereactivated,howwoulditchange 

4 things? 

5 A If it were activated, you would be able to 

6 have -just like tht lady says, a printout, a detailed 

7 calIinglistofwho’scallingwhoandwhereandwhat 

stime. 

? A JUROR: And how long you spoke. 

) THE ~~NESS: And how long you spoke. Basically 

I likeyourhomereeonliawhenyoumakealengdistaucecall. 

2 h4KEhfMIcK: Isee. 

# MS. mm But only on long distance calls? 

I AJUROR: No. 

5 THE~~~?GS: No. Itcouldbeooewqthiq. Yes. 

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In re: Grand Jury Proccdings MuIt i-1 

Page 33 

1 BY MR. WTSENBERG: 

2 Q I,n ti WOTds, if you Were to !?i%egOtiate the 

3 contractarxide&&toputthisfeatunin,youwouldnot4 youwwLdwtbeablttogobrdtsixmonttrsprioraadfrnd 

s outwhocalledwho. 

6 A No. It’s just if you went - they would reprogram 

7 tbcswitcheddowhattbeyhrretoQanditwo~db:fram 

8 &atdq’OnthatyOUinstitU~thatchange. 

9 BY MR. EMMICK: 

0 Q IfwewantedtOverifyWithSO&OdyWhOsOrtOf 

1 ~~~~t~~~rn~~~~~~~ 

2 wctalktoaboutthat? Toabsolu&lyconfiitJ~~thueis 

3 nowayto nxoMnu%whatcalls~made. 

4 A You would have to talk to probably AT&T. Lucent, 

5 ourumbztors. 

6 Q WbenyousaidthattheSecnztSekcewasconoaaed 

7 ~ut~~~~~~~~~~~~~t 

8 exactlydidyoumean? ‘Ibesecrpitycon~thatthe~ 

9 Service had. I’m trying to understand that. 

0 A I don’t know exactly what their concerns were. 

1 11’s probably the vulnerability of the system, like anything 

2 else right now where you could have hackers get into the 

3 systemwithcomputers. Becauseitisaccunputerizedsystem, 

4 so,youknow,togetintotllestcurjtyaspect,Ican’t-I 

5 don’t know, really. You would have to talk to Seen% Service 

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Page 34 

1 aboutthat. 

2 Q But it was the sectity aspect that caused you to 

3 opt for the switch not being turned on. 

4 A To th= best of my ability to remember, yes, that’s 

s &hat it was. I wasn’t involved in them discussions. 

6 MR WISENBERG: hk. hnmick, Ms. Wi.&, ti. Nagy, it 

7 is break time. 

8 MS BIRTH: It is break time. I thought so. 

9 MR. WISEMBERG: And we’re going to take - 

0 THE FDREPERSON: A Wminute break. 

1 h4R. WlSENBERG: - a 15minute break and we will 

2 comcandgctyouwhcnwehaveaquonun again and we’re XcSdy 

3tostart. 

4 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. 

5 MR WISENBERG: ‘Ikanks very much. Ihere’s a little 

6 cafeteria in the basement. 

7 THE-s: okay. Thank you. 

8 MR. WXSENBERG: Thank you 

9 (Witness excused. Witness 4ed.) 

0 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Nagy, you are still under 

1 oath. 

2 THE WTl-NESS: Thank you 

3 MR_ WI!SENlSERG: Let the record reflect the witness 

4 hasremterzdthegrandjuryroom_ Therearenounauthorized 

s persons and we have a qukum. Is that correct? 

PtlgP Alex George Nagy, 5-19-9 

Page3 

1 THE FOREPERSON: That%-CXXnXt. 

2 MR. WISENBERG: Thank you 

3 THE WrrNEsS: I have a question. Things have 

4 happaxzdwaybackandjustouttbm,Iwasthiiik&si~ 

5 outthar,andI’dlikctomayk:clarifyafavquestionsthat 

6 wereaskedtomeatthzbeginning. 

7 MR. Eh.¶MlCKz &ire. ’ 

8 THE W~INESS: About the installation of thz 

9 telephone system, I did state it was -- involved heavily in 

o it was Mr. Watkins and Ms. Thasrasson. 

1 ~~~~~~d~at~~gof~ 

2 administration that was brought in to oversee basically 

3 gettingthisnewtelephooesyaamil&wasonthecampaign, 

4 tkpre&kn~campaign, andwastkanethatestabkbed 

5 themcaingsandasfarasIknow,wfiichhetoldmon 

6 numerous occasions, he got his guidance from Mr. Watkins. 

7 And there was also another individual who worke 

8 the convation who was brought in that worked for AT&T tha 

9 was:requestedtobein~andhealsoparticipaWiin 

o citablishingthencw~fephonesystunasfarasgettingtbc 

1 contractsandetceterawith~atfheywantedinttr:~ 

2 system. 

3 BY MR EMhflCK: 

4 Q whowen?thosepersans? 

5 A The fvst individual was Andy Auk out of Arkmsas 

Page 31 

1 and]thinkbetookaleaveofabscncefromSouthwestBctI 

2 and worked on the campaign. 

3 BY MS. WIRTH: 

4 Q Is that A-l-t-s? 

5 ‘A 1 think it was A-u-l-t-z 

6 MS. WUUH: Okay. 

7 -IHEW!?%% Andthatbesecondindividualwbo 

8 worked the convention for AT&T, establishing the telephone 

9 szviceforthat_wasMr.StanGorsky. Andbewaskuooghti 

0 on tk AT&T account ah during this time period. 

J BY Ms. WIRTH: 

2 Q And l&s an AT&T employs? 

3 A Yes, he is. As far as I know, he still is with 

4 theminNewJ_. Mr.A~&~wastkonethatwashasicaU 

5 going around and sitting in on meetings and SO~X&IB 

6 chairingmeetingsanddeahngwiththeo!herphonecampwie 

7 &II Atlantic, AT&T. et cetera. 

8 BY MR. EMMICX 

9 Q Who employed Mr. Auk? 

0 A 7hat’sagoodqucstiabecauseIh’tthinkhewas 

1 ontheWhiteHouszrolls. Ican’tsayforsmthathe~ 

2 ontheWhiteHouserolls. Itbinkhewasbroughtinlikeon 

3 a consultant type basis. Or I don’t even know if k wg 

4 being paid. 

5 Q Any idea how we could find him now if we wanti to’ 

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A Well, as far as I know, what 1 heard is that he’s 

back at Southwestern Bell. He got a promotion, be’s at a 

higher level there now, as a district n.~~ager or son~thing 

like that. He’s in Arkansas. I don’t know if it’s in Little 

Rockorwherehe’sat. TberewouldterecordsattbeWhite 

House, should be records. 

Q Any other chuifications or expansions? 

A Yes. Trying to clarify how the phone system is 

broken out., like I stated, I’m responsible for the White 

House side, the White House staff, 

As an additional duty, I’m the manager of the TX 

which is the telephone service offkq which is AT&T, bxcnt 

and et a%era where we file the orders to and they handle it_ 

So I’m the overall manager of that. That is an addition2 

dutythatwasassignedtomebyP~Thomassaatthattim 

and it hasn’t been taken away. 

Onthatsideofthehouse,IwearthehatandI 

report to an individual who is considered - they call lrz~ 

the COTK it’s contracting officer basically, Mrs. Cheryl 

Hall, who is on the staff of the Oflice of AdmGstratioa 

She is the one that receives the bills for 

international and et cetera because it’s her office that 

breaks it down-and breaks these bills down to the various 

other Executive Office of the President offices that have 

ticc out of our switch. So it’s broken down. 

Multi-Pagem Alex George Nagy, S-19-98 Y 

7 Page 39 

1 higher or lower. Is it by tht number of calls or the 

2 durationofthecallsorthepcnrntageoftbecallsthatarc 

3 long distaIlce as opposed to toll? which of those various 

4 methods might be applied? 

5 A Well, there could be numerous factors in it Let’s 

6 say the total amoUnt of lines you have that have capabiiit&j 

7 for long distance. 

8 Thzcouldtc-whichhashappened,tfiertare 

9 somcageziesthatartinexistenamaybeforaycar,two 

1 0 years,andwhenthey’redcactivatedaUtheirlinesare 

1, 1 1 pulledou5ofcourstfieratioisgoiagtobeDigba,higbcr 

I 2 based upon the utilization of the lines for long distance 

1 3 caUs,etcetera. 

dl 4 Also,itcouldbebaseduponthetimeperiod. I 

: 1 5 mean, it’s not a szt biU every month. You know, one month 

I 6 there might bc a lot of traffic, volume of traffic, for 

1 7 intexnational calls, et cetera So there’s various factors 

r 1 8 involved in that bill. 

1 9 Q ~thcrtiSscCaUn~gtakenOfthenumberof~Ong 

I. 21 0dktaIlcecallS. 

2 1 A Thtzisacunmtingasfarascomesonthebill 

2: 2that shows the long distana calls that go international, tk 

2 3 numberthattheycall,tbecmmtrytheycallandsoon. And 

2s 4 that’sbrdpndowaonafomu&,again,basDdup,,atbcamamt 

2. s of lines that have international capability. 

Page 4r 

1 MIS. Hall could probably give you the full detail 

2 astohowitisdoncbccausctbere’sotberfactors. I’mnot 

3 famitiarwithallthcfectorsinvolvediniSbutIknowsome 

, 4 ofthem. 

5 Q IgucsswhatI’mtryingtofigureout~in,for 

6 example, the use of the FIS system, you pay a rate that’ 

I sort of a blanket rate. 

8 A A flat rate. 

9 Q A flat rate. 

1 0 AR&M. 

1 1 Q Butisthcrenonctheltsssomeaccountingtakeno! 

1. 2 the number of calls or the duration of calls? 

1, 3A Yes,Iwouldsaythereisbytheamtractur. 

1s 4Sprint would have that information. They’d have to hsve 

1: 5sometbingtobasetbevolumeofcallscm. Theusagcoftk 

II 6circuits, for exampk, going to an area, on ITS circuits. 

I' 7Again,tbatinturnisbrokcndownonapromtedbasis~ 

II B upon the amount of lines that are in the comply the 

I! 3 Executive office of the President, that have FTS 

2( 3 capabilities. 

2. I So, you know, in essenoe, since you don’t have th 

2: 2 exaetdetailsofwho’sm8k@whateallswtrerc,that’stk 

t 2: 3 

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I Theyusesomekindofaformula,onaprorated 

2 basis, I guess, based upon the amount of lines that have 

3 access to long distance international. But she is the one 

1 that gets the bill. 

5 Iwasgettingthatbill,theyhadmynamconall 

6 billsforawhileandthenIhadthemremoved,hadmyname 

7 removed from it because I was getting everybody’s bill and 

they were all complaining, well, why am I getting their bill 

and all I did was get the bill in and send it to the office, 

you know. 

. Q So how do they figure out how much to bill the 

various components of the White House for their phone 

service? 

A That is a confusing question for me to answer. 

Mrs.Hallwouldbetheoacto~ybreakthatdown. ‘Ibere 

is a formula they utilize, breaking it down, basal upon - 

like I said, maybe for international - presuming for 

international, if you have international capabilities and 

long distance, based upon how many lines you have, total 

amount of lines and then each agency is broken down on their 

share of it. 

Q Part of the reason for my qustion relates to 

another question that I had. You had mentioned at some poinl 

thatsomtimesbillsarehigherandsomaimcs bills are lower 

and I wasn’t sure how you would be billed that would make ii 

onlyfairwaytodoh Butinessenceitcouldbethat 1 

somamedwsn’tmakealotoflongdistmm-someageacy 1 

docsn’tmakialotofloagdistancecallsb~thcy~~alot 1 

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Page 41 Page 41 

1 oflinesthathave access, so they’re paying their unfair I to be seam or classified. 

2 sh,perse. 2 The secure lines are for the classified infomlation 

3 Q IguesswhatI’mtryingtofigumoutisdotheyat 3 only and it’s probably - you know, I can’t answer that 

4 leadknowthenumberofcallsordotbeyknowtbcdumtion 4 question for WHCA. I mean, you how, tky support the 

5 of the calls oc is that infolmation completely unavailable, 5 Cammandcr-in-Chief and, of course, tbc Commander-in-Cbie 

6 tbembyforcin8youtomakeadetaminationbasedonlyontbc 6 wearstwohats,sohe’snotonlydealingnowthroughhi 

7 number of lines? 7 role with the military, he’s also dealing on the civilian 

8 A I don’t think that information is provided. It can 8 side. 

9 beprovidedbyFf’8. Ithinkall~providesthemisthe 9 So for feasibility cost-wise, it wouldn’t make 

o costonafiscalyearbasisaudtbatcouldcban8c. Youknow, 10 any sense to, you hiow, just send a bunch of civilian 

I thatcouldchangethenextfiscalyear. 11 operatorsoverthentohandlecallsaudetceterawith 

2 They could oveabarge one year and deduct it from 12 him. And another switchboard with separate phones. 

3 tknextfiscalyear. lbeuseitontkusage. Sotbeybave 13 You know, that would - the cost would be totally out o 

4 some&kg to compile that information, but it’s not provided 14 line. 

s persetoMrs.Hall,thtcostsforfiscalyearsoandso. 1s Q AndintbesanzwaytbatIcanmxkr&mdwbyyou 

6 Q So they don’t say, for example, you had 5000 calls 16 would want secure lines, I can understand arhy yw would wLLIIt 

7 thisyeatand~‘regoingtobillyoubasedonSOOOcalls. 17 to have WCA haudle tnwcl calls, but I’m just not sure why 

8 A No. 18 youwwldwaottohave~clrhandlej~gardcnvariay 

9 Q Or you bad 1000 calls but the average duration was 19 admin&mtive calls. Why have two systems for that? 

0 30 minutes. Or anything like that. 20 A Well,WHCAdoesn’tonlyjusttakecareofthe 

1 A No. But that information can be -- you know, they 21 President. It takes caic of the cabinet nrembefi, you know, 

2 can provide it if it’s asked for. I don’t think they were 22 succession. They’re also - tbemsclves, their own, their own 

3 asked for it. 23 military environment, their own co& you know, so @ 

4 Q Right okay. 24 have to have lines for that administration. So not 

5 A You would have to speak to that lady to find out 25 everybody’s providing sure means. 

Page 42 Pagt4 

1 that part. 1 Q MaybetbisissometbingI’munclcaron. Doalltbe 

2 Q Well, I had another bunch of questions. The more 2 pboncs in the White House, wbetber tbey’rc military-related 

3 ~oneisitsormdstomeLiLeyou’vegotsomewhitt 3 ornot,dotbeybavewK.Aadminisuativelinesontbemas 

4 House t&phone suvia lines that are not mure and then 4 well? 

5 you have wHCA lirres that are not secure and you have WHCA 5 A NotalIofthem. 

6 lines that are secure. Is that - 6 Q Notallofthem? 

7 A That’s correct 7 A Them’s only a select few and that’s in 

8 Q All right. I guess what I’m not clear on is I 8 relationship, maybe, to tht succession of the President, 

9 can understand why you want to have secure lines, but I 9 relocation, you know, certain teams that might have to 

0 don’t understand wby you’d want to have two systems for 10 relocate with the President or whatever. 

1 non-secure lines. Why do you have two systems for 11 Q Is&. SoonlysomeWbitcHouscphcnesbave~~c~ 

2 non-secure lines? 12 non-secure lines. 

3 A Well, that is a good question. I can only 13 A Staff side. I’ll put it that way. 

4 speculateonit. IwasinwHCAontbcotbersideandI’m 14 Q Staff Side. 

s on this side right now. It is probably a lot cheaper to 15 A fight. ThtIdih3IyhasWHCAbCS. 

6 utilize the military to provide support on an administrative 16 Q Sure. 

7 basis when the President is traveling than taking a staff 17 A And usually the military has WHCA lines and dasn’t 

8 member -like to say, for example, my operators. 18 even ban any of my lines, for example. And they da provide 

9 At one time the operators did travel, I believe, 19 supporttosaxCtservicc,sotherean,yauknow,lincsto 

0 back in the Johnson administration, we’d have an operator 20 the various police posts that WHCA has and so on. 

1 travel with the President. But you still need that 21 MR. EMhECK: Any other questions on that 8core? 

2 administrative type tice, you still need that -- since 22 MS. WIRTH: No. 

3 ~HCA goes out there and establishes their communications, 23 THE WITNESS: I know it’s cc&using, but that’s the 

4 they have a switchboard there, you still need adminisbative 24 best answer I could give you. 

5 lines because not everyhing going over the lines are going 25 MR. EMhECK: All right. Fair enough. 

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1 BY MR. EMMICK: 

2 Q I wanted to go back to one of the things that you 

3 had said about caller ID and how caller ID works especially 

4 withrespecttothephonesintheWhiteHouseandintheOva 

5 Office. You made a commen t that the President’s ID is 

6 ordinarily blocked. Is that correct? 

7 ACOrrect 

8 Q Whatdoesthatmean? 

9 A That if the President would pick up his dial line, 

1 0 which is one of our lines, per sc, and hc called - for 

1 1 example, he called another staff member, the printout would 

1 2 notshowascomiogfrmntbeRcsidcntonthatstaffmcmbcr’r 

1 3 phone, on that display. It would show maybe an as&risk or 

1 4 something else. 

1 5 Q Does that apply to the nonSeCUre WHCA line as 

1 6 wtll? 

1 7 A I don’t know about the WHCA. If he picked up his 

1 8 line that goes to the administrative switchboard, it does 

1’ 9 show to my open&or, tk President, and we have an alarm tha 

21 0goes off to give spexzial recognition that it’s him calling 

2 1 because we get numerous calls, we wouldn’t know who was 

2: 2 calling for one of the staff members. So from phone to 

2. 3 phone, dialing from phone to phone, it is blocked. 

2, 4 Q Isee. 

2 5 A From his direct line to my switchboard would 

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indicate the President. And I would - I’m not sure about 

WHCA, I would say if it’s coming to my board the same way, i 

would be going the same to WHCA identifying the Resident 

and they would get an alarm, but I’m not sure of that_ 

Q I’m going to tell you how I understand what you’re 

saying and then you can tell mc how I’m wrong. 

A Okay. 

Q It sounds to me like it’s possible that if hc made 

a phone-to-phone direct dial using the WHCA non-secure line, 

that might show some reference to the Resident, but you’re 

just not sure of that_ 

A The WHCA line to the WHCA switchboard. 

Q I see. To the WHCA switchboard. 

A Hedoesnot-asfarasIknow,hcdocsnothaver 

line that he can dial on that belongs to WHCA. 

Q Okay. 

A Hehasadircctlincpcrsethatgoestotk 

switchboard, a direct line that goes to my switchboard, to 

the administrative switchboard. 

Q All right. Now, you mentioned that if he uses his 

line to call your switchboard that some kind of alann goes 

off that indicates POTUS or whatever it would indicate. 

A Right. 

Q Now,iftheyputinacaUtosomeoneelseintk 

White House, would that show through caller ID POTUS? 

Pagem Alex George Nagy, 5-19-98 

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A No. That is the portion that’s blocked. 

Q Isee. Soit’sblockedwhethcrheusestk 

switchboard or lx calls anotkr White House line dir&y. 

A It is blocked - 

Q Do you understand what I’m asking? 

A Ye& 

Q Okay. 

A IfheusesthedialKnecapabiIityhehasin 

tkre,whichkhasacoupleoftbcm,thatisblocked. That 

isaWhiteHouscnumhcr,a456aumher. Ifkusestkiine 

thatgoestothtswitch~thatismoreorless-it’sa 

lint,butit’sadirectlinethatgoesdirectlytomy 

operator. That’s the one that has the indication and the 

alarm goes off. 

Thedialonc,ifhepicksupanddialsit,Iike, 

say, calling your phone, that’s the one that’s blocked, 

therc’srJothingonthatothcrthanmaybeanasteris)r. 

Iknowyou’regettingconfused. Thereare 

diffcrcnt Iines, light? 

Q Well,letmegobacktotheoriginalreasonwhy 

Imaykconfuscd We’vckardsomcvidmce&atoa~ 

phones a caller ID said POTUS. How did that happen? 

A Itcouldbe. ThatcouIdbetrue. Dependswhoit 

is, who it’s going to. 

.Q Okay. I don’t know w&t you mean by that. Yw 

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meanbecanPage 4r, 

A Imcanitcouldbepossibleifhepicksup-if 

it’s going to the vice president, it could we11 be POTUS. 

Youknow.Iamaotsurewbic%onesareblockal. Thatarc 

somcthatareblockcd. I’mjustspeculatingifyouusetk 

dialline,thcIl:wouldbcnortasonwfryitshauld-wily 

thcrewouldkanindicationthattkcalliscomingfromhim 

to any other staff member. 

Q Well,wouldn’tkwantanotkrstaffmcmbcrtokmw 

thatthisistkPresidentof~Un.itedStatescaIIing 

because if I were the President of the United States, I’d 

want people to answertilatphoneifIwerecaIIing. 

A Well, I can’t speculate on that. All I could teIl 

youisalotofthccallsthatgotfrmughtheswitchboard, 

thePresidentcaIlsandhewantstotaIktostafTmcmbers 

an4you~ow,myopaator~thestaffmanbaonaadsay, 

‘The President’s calIing for you.” 

So, you know, I can’t say exactly how tkm two dial 

lincsarcusedorhqvtbey’rc-youknow,someoneintbat 

off~cc probably could tell you. I have no idea how they 119t 

Q Let’sgobackto-I’maIittleunclearhowitis 

that~~scouldcverappcaronacallerIDif,asyou 

originalIysaid,thc~s~hasbeenblocked. Isit 

selectively blocked? I 

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1 A It could be selectively blocked, the way that I 1 Q !SoiftbePreaident2 understand 2 A Th=yweretbatway. 

3 Q okay. It can be selectively blocked. Is it 3 Q IftbePresidentwemtocallsomeonefromthe 

4 selectively blocked? 4 studyasopposedtocallingfromthcphoneinthedi~ 

5 A I don’t know. I’m not sure. I can’t give an .5 room,wouldadifferentcalkrn,showupintheirphox? 

6 answerforsureOntbat. 6 A I’m not sure of that. It could be. It might just 

7 Q SowbenyousaidthattbepOnrScallerIDis 7 haw, you know, “Resident”. It mi&t just have “poTus= or 

8 block&, you wue sayin that in 8eneral your impression 8 whateva. Probably mm than likely it would he that way. 

9is- 9 don’t say it wouldn’t - it’s not goin ta show the aumha 

0 A Myimpmssionis. Right. 10 becawetkydon’twantpcopletohavcthatnumberthtk’ 

1 Q Doyouknowforafactthatit’sblockedforsonx 11 dialingon. 

2 and unblocked for some? 12 So it would be more likely - if it would be 

3 A No. 13 anything, it would just be poTus, but 1 am not sure. It 

4 Q Okay. Is tlxm some way you could find that out ? 14 couldbePo?vsdin@room,itcculdbeKmrsstudy,polu 

5 ~canyoutelluswho~wouldtalktotofiadthatout? IS oval. ButIknowcomin8into,like,totheswitchboard,it 

6 A Again, it would be under - with AT&T. 16 doesshowjustthtPresi&nt. 

7 BY MS. WIRTH: 17 A JUROR: Do you have tie lines to other agencies 

8 Q HaveyoucverscenPUlW8onascreen,onacallcr 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, we do. 

9 IDscreen? 19 A JUROR: Can you tell me which other agencies? 

0 A He’s never called me, so I’ve never seen it 20 LiketotllePentagon? Liketowherevertbeygo. 

1 BY MR. EMMICK: 21 THEwriNEsS I’mbyingto rcxuzmber who we have 

2 Q If someone wanted to block or unblock their own 22 them to. We have them to the Capitol and to the Treasury 

3 caller ID or if they wanted to block it selectively, how 23 Department. Towxcrc Tbat’sallIeanthinkofofftbetop 

4 woukltheydothat? Wouldtheygotoyouorwouldthey$oto .24 of my kad right now that we have. 

5 AT&T7 25 A JUROR: Do you have any to the Pentagon? 

Page 50 Page! 

1 A Well, supposedly, what is supposed to happen, that 1 THE WITNES: No, we don’t. We do have a line 

2 there are forms that am ftied out. They’re called 2-tbeseercUyofDefense-. ?bccabinetmcmberswehavelinc 

3 telephone service request forms and all agencies and all 3~to,adirectline. Buttootberswitchboards-Ithinkw 

4 offices am supposed to fill this out for any kind of 4 dohaveonedowntoJusticeorthe~r,tco. AndtheSecmt 

5 telephone work, requesting lines, phones, et ceter;5 5 Service, of course, we have tie lines. 

6 wbatcver. 6 BY h4R. EhdMICk 

7 IgetthemfortbeWbiteHouse. Iintumtum 7 Q I want to go back to something even more 

8 them over to the contractor, to AT&T. to the telephone 8 fundamental. Maybe I’m not clear on what the caller I 

9 service oftice which AT&T manages, and they would da the 9 indica~. If Betty Cunie calls soma and her line is not 

D work. IO blocked, does it say Betry Currie? 

1 I’m saying supposedly. ‘Ihae have been occasions, 11 A Yes. 

2 depends who, some people -- I’ve been bypassed and it’s 12 Q Or does it says 

3 called directly in to them and work is done. 13 A It could say whatever she wants. It could say 

4 You know, getting back to the President’s phones, 14 Betty Cunie, it could say Betty, it could say Currie. It 

5 Ihavenot~overandhad~yworkdoneonhisphoncsfor 15 eouldhavethenumheronit. Don’thavcthenumhcrouit, 

6 years. ~whateverisintherc,hasheenestahtishedfrom 16 justaname. Justhavethenumber,uottbename. 

7 thevezybeginnin&Mr.Aultzandalltheothtroneswhowerc 17 Q And what do peopk usually have? What’s tlx 

8 involved in it. During that time period, 1 wasn’t even in 18 default unless you’ve changed it? 

9 the West Wing. 1 couldn’t even go over there for a while. 19 A The major@’ will put -- the 10~er echelon, your 

0 Q So would there be a different caller ID. if there 20 working staff, have theii name and their phone numba. Ya 

i wemanycaller~,fortbephoneinthestudyorforthe 21 upper staff, just might have the name or might have the 

2 dining room or for tlx Oval Office? 22 office, c0unsel. 

3 A No, I don’t believe so because all of the phones in 23 Q Becausetkymi&twrmttokaptk.irownnumber 

4 themareashavethcsamecapabilities,thesamelineson 24 S~UIZ~_ 

S 

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I assigned to it and they consider it their private number. 

2 Tbeycouldhavetheirprivatenumbaonthcphoaeaswell~ 

3 ageneralnumbcrfortbeofftce. Alotofyourtopstaffmay 

4 just have, you know, the offke title and the gaxral number 

5 in the telephone direct0ry. 

6 Q So when you said that the President’s phones wen 

7 blocked, did you mezu~ that the Resident’s phones are blocka 

8 such that the number doesn’t show because he might want to 

9 keepthenumbersxetordidyoumeanthatcvaythingis 

o blocked? Or do you know? 

1 A I don’t think everything is blocked. If anything, 

2 the number will be blocked. 

3 Q ISee. 

4 A The number definitely would be blocked because 

5 don’tthinktheywantthatnumbertobeout. 

6 Q The number may be blocked, but thz reference to 

7 PoTUsor8 A There’s a possibility where it could be. Just like 

9 I said, POTUS shows up, it comes to the switchboard. 

0 Q Okay. I see. And ultimately the way we have to 

1 find out whether it says POTUS or whether it says Clinton or 

2 what it says, we’d have to talk to somebody from AT&T 

3 A Yes. AT&T probably. I don’t know if Secret 

4 Service gets invohxd in that domain. I don’t know what can 

5 be divulged or what_ 

Page 54 

1 Q I understand But it sounds to me like you’re not 

2 absolutely certain about what does appear if the Prtsidcnt 

3 were to call someone in house. 

4 A That’s true. I can just speak about what I know, 

s calling the switchboard, which I know for a fact that it 

6 shows up because he’s alarmed and stuff. 

7 A JUROR: That’s SOti Of my Cp&On with regad.S 

8 to tie lines, because if there are tie lines an& say, you’re 

9 going to the Secztzy of Defense, I’m certain the Sccrctzuy 

D of Defense would desperately need to know that it’s the 

1 Pxrsident calling him, you know, because I’m sux they have 

2 the same phone system. 

3 THE WITNJZW I don’t know what kind of phone 

4 SystemtheyhaveoveratDOD. Idon’tthinktheyhavethc 

5 same type that we have. 

5 They might have -- you know, it does display, but 

7 Idon’tthinktheyhavtthesame--thtIsD,thtIsDN 

B telephone network that we have. But the majority of the 

? calls like going to - if the President called - going 

3 over the tie line from Capitol Hill, he can go directly 

I into it without going through my operator. My operator has 

2 access. 

3 You cannot dial that line. It’s a trunk line. 

1 My operator has to go in and get it, same thing with the 

5 secret- of Defense. 

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Pagem Alex George Nagy, 5-19-98 

Page 55 

1 Unless he went on another phone and dialed the 

2 office number over lxx, that’s a differtat story but he’s 

3 goingtogothroughmyopcratortogetthtStcrctaryoi 

4 Defense. And, of course, my operator is going to - the 

5 Rcsidentisgoingtohgngup,I’mgoingtogcttbatparton 

6 the line, announce who’s calling, call the R&dent back 

7 AJUROR: Thank you. 

8 BY MR. EMMICK: 

9 Q Iwanttogobacktooneofthcamasthatyou 

0 talkai about. tk -ping of the pbonc systun in 1993. You 

1 haddictakdthatwtlatyouunderstoodorwhatyouhadhcard 

2 wasthattbeinsmletionsforthclwanlpingcamefromtbc 

3 higbzst possibk source. I think that’s what you said. 

4 ARight. 

5 Q Or were from as high up as possible. 

6 ARi& 

7 Q Iguesswhat~‘mnOt&arOniswhatpartoftht 

8 revamping was directed from the highest possible source? 

9 Like presumably you would need to know what’s cssu~tial and 

0 what’s not essential. what’s important, what’s not @ortang 

1 ifallyoudidwas&mgethe&trumentthatyouspcakinto. 

2 tbehighcstsourcewouIdsaytbat’snotwhatImean. What 

3werethethingsthatwerebeingcliRx&lfromthehighest 

4 possible so=? 

5 A TheonlythingIcouldaddnxswasthemo&ngs 

Page 5b 

1 thattmspifcd. Tberewasaeommitteeofpcoplethatwas 

2 addressed on these things that here’s what WC want_ If 

3 there’s a problem getting them or whatever, and, again, 

4 Mr. Aultz was doing all this stuff. 

5 Q And what seemed to be important versus not SO 

6 important? what were the essential aspects Of this 

7 revamping? 

6 A l’be te&nology and modunization. ‘The voice mail, 

9 theAudix,thecallfOrwarding. AllthenewstufTthat’s 

D offered by technology that we didn’t have before. ‘That was 

I portrayedas~hadtobcdonc. Cammcatsmmedt,a 

2 commentwasmadc-I’muyingtorememhitbecaustIdid 

3 haveconversationswithMr.AultzonafewtfiingsthatI 

4 didn’tagreton,butitsecmcdlikcinputdidn’t~aa 

5 somethings. 

6 One conversation was basically that it’s a 

7 mublicaa rdcphomc system and it’s baa Republican and it’s 

B outdatcdso,youknow,you’vcgot-aquotethatwasinthe 

9 paper, you’ve got little old ladies sitting there plugging 

3 wizsinholesonaswitchboard Sothingsliketbat I 

I don’tknow. Ijusttookadiffarntattitudeoosomeoftk 

2 things. 

3 But there was - basically, it was head On, 

1 modcmization, the technology that w-as out tbfz now that we 

5 didn’t have before and then to find some&& that offered 

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Page 57 Page S! 

1 that technology and the best capabilities. 1 govemmentckyassignedwhoyourcarricrwas,sotkyputr! 

2 Q Wastlxreanychangeintlxnxordkeepingasa 2 under Sprint and took us away frum AT&T. I believe that tk 

3 resultofthismvimlpingin 1993? 3 WHCA portion, the ditary pOrtioa, is U.&Z AT&T. I don’t 

4 A Recordkeepingonwhosepart,perse? 4 think they’re under Sprint. 

5 Q Eitheronyourpartoronthepartofthephonc 5 BY MR. EMMICK: 

6 uunpany. IguaswbatI’mtryingtofmdoutisnowitlooks 6 Q What was your reaction to the 1993 revamping? It 

7 likwe~‘tgettollreccrdsfortksenrlminirtrativccalls 7 sounds to mc like you had some msistance. 

8 andI’meyingtofiodoutifwtcouldbcforeandifthatwas 8 A DoIhaveto answer that question? Well, don’t 

9 changed as part of the 1993 revamping. 9 talctmwrong,likeIsaid.I’veb&ntherralongtime,I’vc 

0 A Priortotknewtelephonesystem,tkrewassome 10 b&nthrou8halotofadministmtions. lt’snotneassary1 mcordkeepingthatwasdifferentasfarasonbills, 11 1savetkofIice0ftbePmsidcntqardl~0fwbatparty 

2 receivingbills. YoualwayshadtkFr8youalwayshad12 isinthcrc,nooneknowswhatpartyIklongto.lsuvctk 

3 that, and you had the capability of goiq commercial if they 13 offke like any other career, devoted federal employee. 

4 dialed91 uwhatewr andtkntheareacodc. ‘Ikrcwasa 14 Soyouhavetwosidcs,ewnwaykck. Youkvetk 

s record on that per se of long distance calls showing, you 15 political side and you have the career side, wbieh we’re 

6 know, who called where and what, at what time. 16 consideredcareer. Andwedoscrveattlxleisureoftlx 

7 FIX, of course, them was no record on that. You 17 President. IftbePmsidentconrsinanddecidestktkno 

8 had to dial 8 at that time. Your international, tkre were 18 longer wants our senicc u&r career, they can tell us 

9 scparatebillsonthatanditshowedwcactlywhatnlrmbais 19 goodbye and we understand that. 

o being called and what number called it. 20 I’ve been in the phone business a long time, even 

I So basically your record keeping changed on the 21 intbemilitary,andI’veseenalotofchangesattheWhite 

2 fact that the whole system change& that alleviated a lot of 22 House. I’vescenchim8esfortk8ccdandfcrtbebad I 

3 thingslikeyournumbergoingout_ Sctbeaumberdoesnot 23 look after the interests of the taxpayer, which is my fti 

4 appear on the phone bill. They called a long distance 24 cmncem. If you could provide scukthin8 and it doesn’t cost 

5 number, international, it shows that it just came from a 25 that much, that’s what I would go for. 

Page 58 Pagca 

1 trunkline. 1 A lot of my responsibilities at tfre beginning of 

2 Q SothcidentityofthecallerintkWhiteHouseis 2 tbeedminiseationwcre_Idon’twdnttosaytakcnaway, 

3 something that was - you could identify tbe caller before 3 werediminiskdandIdidforawhilcputsomcresistanceup 

4 1993andasaresu.h~- 4 to a few things and basically was told this is tk way it’! 

5 A In certain aspects you could. 5 goingtobe,witbyouorwithoutyou. S6tknIwentaloq 

6 QNht- 6 withthcprogramanddidwhatlwastoldtodo. 

7 A ButiftheywentonFTS,iftheydialedSonFTS, 7 My feeling on the system, it could have been 

8 no. Iftkywent commercial, you know k went commercial 8 aihanced,whatwehad,providetksanwzcapabiliticsata 

9 lines, then. But the first route now is FIX. Since that 9 much lesser cost, but I wasn’t involved of all of that. I 

o time, FIX, FIX 2000 has expanded, offered a lot more 10 wasn’t involved in the contracting, I wasn’t involved in 

I teclmology, a lot more reliability than the old FIX system. 11 proc uremenk et cetera 

2 You couldn’t rely on that. It would k down half tk tune. 12 Itriedtowork-likeIsaid,Mr.Aultzwas 

3 MR.E.MMICX: Anyotherquestionsyouhadonthat 13 runningtkshowattkttimc. Iwasu’ttoldIreallyworked 

4 area? 14 forhim,butIsacnthekndwritin8nntkwall. SoIjust 

5 AJUROR Ihaveaque&iotL 15 did what I was told to do like anybody else. 

6 h4R_EMh4IcK: sure. 16 It could have been done better, ckaper, yes. But 

7 A JUROR: Is sprint the carrier for the FlX? 17 that was not my deeisig my call 

8 THE WITNESS: I believe it is now. 18 Q iire thz policies about when you use a secure 

9 A JUROR: Okay. Who was the FT8 carrier before 19 line? 

0 that? 20 A I don’t know if tkre’s policies. I think the 

1 THE WlTNESS: AT&T. 21 secure line, from my military bac@mun& a skure lik is 

2 A JUROR: So AT&T had both sections, but Sprint was 22 when you discuss classified information or very, very 

3 brought in during the revamping? 23 sensitive information. 

4 THE wIlWESS: After the Contract, the FIX 2000, was 24 Idon’tthinktlxsecurelineisnxanttobeuscd 

s negotiated by GSA, it came out when they broke out the 25 as a regular telephone line, administrative line, you know. 

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1 to call Joe Blow here in another office. So -- 

2 Q fstbereapolicyaboutwhenyouusaWHCALineas 

3 opposed to a non-WHCA line? 

4 A Perse,asapolicyinwritin&Idon’tbe~ieve 

5 there is. 

6 Q Is there an informal policy? 

7 A Ihavenoidea. Alotofitdependsonwhatbuttor 

8 ~p~~~~l~h~~it’s~~. Tbeygetit9 theydogetuscanfusdbetwcxsl~~andthcadministrativc 

1 0 switchboard. 

1 1 BY h4R. WISENBERG: 

1 2 Q Evenifyou’reattheWhiteHouseasopposedto1 3 tbc Resident’s at the White House as opposxi to Martha’s 

I 4 ViiorsomcpiacclikcthatwLiatkvm~stupwould 

1 5 alwaysbetakenalong,heCanusC~~ifhtwantsto, 

1 6 COlZCt? 

1 7 A Yes. I believe -- WHCA has the capability now - 

1 8 it has changed a lot since when I was in there. Technology 

1 9 has come a long way. And I’m just speculating on it. 

2 0 I don’t know really how they set the phones out or 

2 I a trip, but I do know that they have the capability of coming 

2 2 back to my switchboard or to dialing a number back at the 

2 3 White Houm and more likely that could go ova a wticx line, 

2 4 not necessarily, say, it would be a White Houm libt, it’s a 

2 5 WHCA line, so they have the capability to dial an off& back 

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at the White House over a WHCA line. 

Q All right. You’re talking about when they’re out 

A when they’re out. Right. 

Q But I’m talking about when the President’s in the 

White House, he can go -asIur&ztandit,becanusea 

WHCAlinccwnwbarbe’sinthcWhitcHousasopposdlto~ 

regular switchboard line that would go to WHU. Is that 

Correct? 

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A That’s corn& It would go through the WXA 

switchboard. 

Q Okay. And that gives him -- let’s say he decided 

to use the WHCA switchboard, not to make a national security 

related call and let’s say he didn‘t just push the wmng 

button, what would be tlx reason for that? 

And I know you can’t get into his mind, but let me 

just - let me just ask it this way. Would it be more secure 

than a regular switchboard line? 

A In my t&tx’ticai PrOfeSSiOn, no. I think - tbt 

pereepti~n is there. The perazptiou is it% a military 

nehvorksoit’sgoinBtobemorrscurethanareguLartypc. 

On au administrative line, it doesn’t make any diffenzncc if 

the military has it or whatever. Tke diffezmcc is a sxure 

telephone network, the red and the black. That’s the 

difference. 

So in my perception of it, that WHCA administrative 

ti- Page” AkxGeorgcNagy,5-19-98 1 

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line is just like an adminismtive line that I have coming 

out of my switchboard. Security is not enhanced any 

diffemnq I don’t think. 

BY MR EUMICK: 

Q Ifwcbavequcstionsaboutwhatpbmcnumbasan: 

forwbatsraffmanbrs,anyuuapasonwbowouldbcrblcto 

klp=lW mmvcstothat? Forexaxnplc,ifwtbadphonc 

raords that go to~numbers and WC don’t know wbosc phm 

tbatis,c9nwtcallyouupandsry”Who’sphoneisthatr 

A Well, I don’t think you’d call me directly. I 

~~~d~~~~~~~l’soffl~~ 

the White House. 

Q AIlr’i’gtn 

A I wouIdn’t - you know. A lot of the numbers ate 

published in tix: t&phone dire&my tlmc at the White 

House, the Executive Of&e of the President 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q How often does thr: telqihane dimtory cusne Out? 

Do you know? The White House t&phone dimmy. 

A It’s supposed to be twice a year. &e just came 

out-onejustomeoutjus2inMay. Wcjustbadanewarc 

issued 

Q Whmisthcothercmeissued? One’sinMaymd 

wlmistheothcrone? 

A Towards the latter part of the year, around 

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Novanbu, Daxmk. I don’t thiatr WC id one lm Novank. 

IthinkwehadonelastAprilorsometlGgIikethat. 

Q You’n: not aware of one since last April. 

A No, I’m not aware of that. I don‘t know an exact 

dateontlzlastonc. Wejustgotabunchoftheminlas 

weekauditkadh4ayonit. Asfarasve@ingnumbas,I 

mean, I dou’t ha% - you know, I don’t have the eapabiity 

or thz knowledge of veri&ing it. 

Again, that is alI controlled by our contractor. 

Wewouldha~toaskthcm,youknow,toprovideustke 

numbcrsofwhoitis. Iftkyhaveitlistedintkre_ Like 

a lot of private numbers may not list the individual. It 

mightjustbeblankbyitandeventhaumtmctors&m’tknew 

that 

WhenIgetamquezrttoputaphoneinandithasa 

privatenumberoni~fortopstaff,Idon’tcvengettbc 

nltmbcxback. AIltbeydoisputtbepboneinarldtbalilleis 

put in. 

BYMRI?.Mt@~ 

Q sOhow~dwtfwl~wfioscphoocnumbaitis? 

Ifwtsce somumemakmgacallfmmMarylan4say,intotbr 

WbiteBouseanditshowsanumherthatisthenurnbercalk 

but it turns out it’s a PQsonat aumhcr, how would an: f& 

out whose personal number that is? I 

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P XC Grand Jury Procasdings Multi-Page” Alex George Nagy, 5-19-91 

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1 intbesystcm,intbecomputkzaisystem. Butitmaynot- 1 A Thare’samixturedownthere. 

2 egain,it&pendswhoitis Itmaynotshowwhoithelongs 2 Q Okay. And as far as you know, you can get long 

3 to. Itmigbtjustsaycounstf’SofficeorFitstLady’~ 3 distance calls on those, but not local calls on residence 

4 office. It won’t Say for some of the people the exact 4 lines. Records of those. Right? 

s individuaI that it belongs to. 5 A Oncertainbne~. Noton~~~Ho~~~. 

6 Q sohowdowefmdout? 6 This is outside of our white House txtwork. It’s o&de the 

7 A lhat’sagcodqucstiott. YouwouldhavetotaIkto f -andthe- It’saIinethatmightstartwitb~,I 

s hfrs. Hall about this and I’m not a part of it. She’s the 8 think,or.orsometbinglikethat. 

9 qeltin datacclnmUnica;tionS. 9 Q SoonccrtainwhiteHouseresidencehnes,youean 

0 BY MR WISENBERGS 10 get long distance calls bemuse they’re outside tlz White 

1 Q Mr.Nagy,Isteppcdoutforafewminutcs,so 11 House tekpbone service. 

2 f~ve~~~e~~~~~~y. Iknow 12 A Yes. Yes. 

.3 aMofyouranswers secmtosuggestthis,butItakeit 13 Q ButthebottomIineisthatasfarasyouknow,yo 

4 ~then’sbasicaUy-justtotah:anexampk,Nancy 14 wouldnotheabletcgdlazdcallsontkmsi&ncephenes, 

6 llunmich’sline,pcMoallinetbercattbeWhiteHouae,the 15 wbztber they’re your system or not. 

6 liuetighttokrOffnX,ifM:W2UJtcdu~ofhal~ 16 A AsfarasIknow. 

7 caUs,tbere’sjustnowaytogetthcmu&rthecurrcnt 17 Q Okay. As far as you know, that’s ccrmct 

8 System. Is that a fair statement? 18 A That’s correct. It’s basically like your brnne 

9 A YOU WOUkin’t get - rigbt. You woukin’t get 19 phone, them lines, you don’t get any records on local calls 

!o anything on local calls You wouldn’t get anything on local 20 within the metropolitan area. 

il calls or internal cak You%2 not going to get anything on 21 Q Now, you told us earlier that the President can 

12 international calls, like I Said. It shows the trunk. It 22 make a direct call from the oval Offlcc without going througl 

~3 dces not show the lint. 23 theswi~~4hecanactuallypiclrupalineandmakea 

14 Q so in other words or even long distance. 24 &cctca& Cor’rcOt? 

!5 A Right. 25 A I’ll say he has the capability to do that. Yes. 

Page 66 Page 61 

1 Q whether it be local, long distance or long di~tancz. 1 Q Do you know if that’s also tnre for the residence? 

2 international, if it’s on one of those personal lines - I 2 CanhcpiekupthephancrmdmakeadkectcallfroIlltkac 

3 call them personal lines but at the Wltite House -- 3 without going through the switchboard? 

4 A Right. 4 A I presume be can on them other lines. 

5 Q The lines assigned to a Nancy Hemreich, a Betty 5 Q All right The other lines being those that are 

6 Ctnrie,tbere’sjttstnowayofgettingtbat. 6 not on the Wbitc House telephone system? 

7 A That’s cOl3ect. Tfr: CXtIy thing that YOU 7 A Theonesthatdon’t-theonesthatdonotgo 

8 probably - and I’m not sure of this, if someone long 8 directIytotbeSwitcbboard. Ifbebasanybnesuptbere, 

9 distanczcalkdhernumberdircc~thatmightshowupcma 9 theycoulddiaIanywheretheywanttoon&m. 

0 bilL For example, if I called YOU, it’s going to show where 10 BY MR. WISENBERCI: 

I theeallcamefrom,thedtuationofthetimr,andthenumher II Q You mentioned, Mr. Nagy, that be has the capability 

2 eaIkd and the cost. 12 of just picking up - the President just picking up a line in 

3 Q Andasfarasyouknow,isthataIsotrueofthc 13 hisotBccaudmakiqscallc4lhisowu. Doyouknowwbdtm 

4 White House residence Iine~? I know you’re not - 14 or not be often does that? 

5 A Like I told you, there arc different lines in the IS’ A No. 

6 tusidence. ThuuLinesintheresidencearejtistlii-like 16 Q You’re not in a position to know? 

7 anybody else's telcphonc. Thcycall themmajorbusiness 17 A I’m not in a position to know. No. 

8 lines, but they’re Iike your home phone number. 18 BY MR. EMMICICz 

9 Q Okay. 19 Q And, also, wkn you said be has ihe capabiiity, I 

10 A So locally there wouldn’t be no record of it, you 20 thought you might have sum&in8 elm in mind when ycu saic 

:I know, long distance thcrc probably would bc a record or 21 capability. I think the question was could hc just mak a 

12 something like that. 22 direct call and you said he has the capability. 

13 BY Ms. WIRTB: 23 A The capability is the line that he has. The Iine 

!4 Q !%I jtist so I’m Clear, on the residence lines, are 24 there. The line is not re~lricted, the dial line is not 

5 thase White House telepho& system lines or WHCA or what? 25 restricted to where he can’t make an outgoing call, et 

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1 cetera. The dial line. 

2 BY Ms. WIRTH: 

3 Q And just so I’m clear, when the Resident does pi& 

4 uptheWHCAlineintheOvalOffice,behastogo~~rbe 

5 WHCA switchboard h’s no way to make a direct call on 

6 the WHCA line, eorreet? 

7 .4 That’seomxt. Theonethatgoestothe 

8 switchboard That’s eorreet. 

9 Q Now, with respect to administrative ea& on tfr 

1 0 White House telephone system, if the President uses the 

1 1 switchboard, are records kept of the calls that he makes’ 

1 2 A Yes. I’m quite sure you’re all aware of it Tht 

1 3 records that are kept by my operators are part of tht - 

1 4 whichgotothediaristand~partoftbearchives. ‘llxre 

1 5 is a record kept of any call that he makes or reeeivts 

1 6 through the White House switchboard. 

1 7 Q And those records are kept by the people who 

1 8 operate your switchboard? 

1 9 A Well, basically, we don’t keep the records. We’re 

2 0 aotarecordkeeper. Allwedoisattheendoftheday,my 

2 I midnight shift types up all tlx President’s calls, m&vex 

2 2 or placed or whatever we have a record of. 

2 3 It is forwarded over by messenger early in the 

2 4 morning in a sealed envelope to Betty Currie’s offia, to 

2 5 Betty Currie. After that, we’re done. We’re out of it. We 

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destroy the handwritten copy. We type up -- you know, for 

official use, we destroy the handwritten copy, throw it ii 

the burn bag. 

We’re not a record keeper. They are the record 

keeper. We just do this per se as a service to them. It’s 

been through history. It’s been through every presi&nt 

since I’ve been there. 

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Q That’s been the procedUre? 

A Yes. The procedure. And it’s part of - like I 

said, it goes to her -- once it goes over there, I have no 

idea, you know, if it’s distributed or what they do with it_ 

I presume it goes to the diarist and into the archives. 

Q I’m going to show you a copy of what is marked as 

Gtand Jury Exhibit PF3. which is cntitld “PresidcntiaI CaII 

Log” and the date on this particular one is Deeember 15, 

1997. 

A Mm-hmm. 

Q Is this the document that your switchboard 

operators on the midnight shift type up? 

A Yes, it is. 

Q And they make one of these for each and every call? 

A Yes, it is. It is more spaces on here -- 

Q So this has been redacted, this document? 

A Yes. There’s morebnes onberc -- 

Q In 0th~ words, there would be more than one call 

Alex George Nagy, S-19-98 

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on eaeh page? 

Page 71 

A -IlxxnwouIdbc-ob,ycs. 

Q Okay. 

A I mean, it could be pages of calls. I don’t know 

how many exactly are on a page, 10 ma* whatever. 

Q Allright_ Sothisisthzlistthatyourpeople 

typeup. 

A Yes, it is. If it goes tbrougb our switchboard. 

Q Okay. And that’s done at the end of every day. 

A That’s done on our midnight shift. 

Q Andtherawdata,whichIt&eitarchandwriacn 

notesascallscomeinandaseallsaregoingout,thoseare 

destroyed at the end of every day? 

A Yes,itis. Yes. Wearenott&rcmrdkecper. 

Q And that’s always been the ease. 

A Yes. 

Q In every administration that you’ve worked in or 

with. 

A Yes. Well, other admini&ations, some were kept 

for longer periods or whatevz You know, it got to be a 

burdcnonus,toornanyquestionsbcing~andwe’reOOt 

spokespeople for that. I mean, as far as staff calling and 

wautingtolmciwiftbeResidcntcalledsoandw. So&was 

bestdetenninalthatwegetridofitatthtendoftkday. 

Q Was that your determination? 

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A Yes, it was. Our procedures, our internal 

prvadures.Ouroperatorshadahcada&e _* keeping 

these things. 

Q Okay. So PF-3 actuaIIy has a whole bunch of calls 

onifnotjusttheonethatappearstlrze. 

A Well,Iean’tsayforthisday,but,I&an,it 

looks~ifthisistheonlycallitwouldbcuphigher. 

Youeanseewhereitstartsuphcre. 

Q Right. 

A SoIpresumcthere’scallsupthere,aftcrcouldbe 

calls, may not be calls. 

BY MR. WISENBERCi: 

Q Typieahy,though,itwillbeafullpagewith 

scveraIcausIikethtonconPF-3. Isdlatamnct? 

A Yes. Yq. ~noca&. 

Q Now,wbatIwanttomakesure,absol~yclearfor 

the record, you’re looking at PF-3. 

A Mm-bmm. 

Q PF-3, this particular version is reda&d, but PF-3 

is a document that is created by your peopk. Is that 

eorreet? 

A Yes. The information - 

Q In other words, this isn’t mm&ring that Betty 

CurriecreatesorElleuMcCathrancreatesaRayouallba~ 

sent-your’pa@ellavesentthemsometl@eIse. Tbisis 

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1 romdfiiag,aQc-tcxcitibyp-pcopkandthmrcatto 1 Like I made a comment befon that, you know, 

2 B&y Currie and presumably ultimately to Ms. McCathrzm. Is 2 numerous times in aU administrations that I &al with, 

3 tBatcormct? 3 you’ve had staff members sarins, “Well, the Presi&rlt was 

4 A IfthisealIcamettnnughmyswitchboardandmy 4 supposed to call Joe Blow. Did fr: call him last night?” 

5 opemtorhandledit,itwouldbelogged. IikeI’msaying- 5 Andsoon. 

6 ~1~~~~ aftcritleavcsandgasovcr 6 You know, my operators am in a position that 

7 tlzre,Ihaveooideawhathappenstothislog. . 7 tky’rcoperators,tky handle calls. They’re not 

8 QfiRi%t 8 spokcslxople for the White House, so you bavc a ant& poir 

9 A Butifthiswentthroughthereandmyoperator 9 that has the responsibility to control these logs and it’s 

o did log this calI and receive this calI, you lmow, that’s 10 alwaysbccnintheQvalofficc,theseaetaryorcxccctive 

1 true. 11 assistant 

.2 Q Right 12 Q Dotheycverchan~thelogS? 

.3 A But~~~to~~~d~~a~~ 13 A who? 

,4 itwentoveraadthiscallwasndonifitoMlldVbY~ 14 Q Betty Currie or Nancy Hernreich 

.s beaddedoverthere. Ihavcnoidea. is A Ihavenoidea. Like~S~d,OIXXitbZaveSOUr- 

.6 Q Ihaveamorenarrow -1thinkthere’samore 16 it goes in a sealed envelope to them and it’s delivered tc 

7 narrowqnestion_whicbisjnsfsimplythisleacmead.tbis 17 them Ibavenoideaafteritgetsoverthemwbatisdon 

8 says The White House, Washh@m, Presidential CalI Log.* 18 with the log. 

9 Is PF-3, looking at it, I realize it’s redact&, does this 19 BY MS. WIRTH: 

LO appear to be typically the product of your pcoplc? You said 20 Q If tlxm’s a mistake, you mentioned carliu that 

!I they typed it up from raw data. 21 sfnnetimesthemx.laybeamistakeinthetimeofthecallor 

!2 A tight. 22 the name, a misspelling of the person, if then: is a 

!3 Q ~~y~itup~~ng~tl~~~e 23 camtim cakd for, do they call your people and ask &em 

!4 PF-31 24 tomakeitordotheymakeit’! TheybeingBdtyCurrieor 

Y A Yes. 25 Nancy IIemreich. 

Page 74 Page 7’ 

1 Q Okay. 1 A Themajorityofthetime,wecatchthemistskebu 

2 A lheyfillit-theyfihtheinitialthingby 2$‘s already gone out. All my supervisors, wbcn they come 

3 handwrittenpenonthesamctypeoflogandthenattheend 3 in, that’s one of the logs that they check. lkre’s numerous 

4 oftheday,becausethereawldbe comments over here of not 4 otherlogsandequipmentthattheychecktomakesurr:that 

5 available or whatever, some!h@ like that, ti just put the 5 they know what’s transpired during the day, then’s a 

6 calltranspired. AndasfarasIknow,we’retlxonlyone 6 possibility there could be a call outstanding that’s going to 

7 tbatbastheselogsandIthinkmaybethesignalbo&bas 7 becomiogintothcResidentandsoon. Sowebytocbcck 

8 them, too. They do maintain logs. 8 for accuracy on everything. 

9 BY h4R. EMMICK: 9 However, it does slip through sometimes and m may 

0 Q ~y~~~t~~C~e~dN~ 10 ~~itafterthelog’salreadygoneoutonthedayshift 

I Hemreich? What’s the purpose of that? Why don’t you just 11 and we might call a supervisor - my chief opemtor calls her 

2 scndittotlxdiaristdirectly? 12 andsays,*Betty,wemadeamistakeon~we’U~it 

3 A That’s been the policy, not just because it’s Nancy 13 and send another one over” or whatever. 

4 Hernreich or Betty Cunie. That’s been the policy in all 14 I don’t know - I can’t give you examples if they 

5 presidential administrations. Them’s someone that’s 15 ever called over, if they probably did catch a mist&c &y 

6 responsible for this call log. They are responsible to get 16 might have. Or they just might have wrote on it. I don’ 

7 ittothediiuist. 17 know. ButI~~~e~~~~~~ 

8 Iguess-Ipresumc,again,whentheygetitover 18 caughtandsentovertothem. 

9 tbem,theycbcckitfortbcaoanaGyorwbatcver,justlikc 19 hiS.wIRTH: Isaw ahand. 

10 wehytocheckitandmakesurethat-youknowtkze’s 20 A NROR: Didn’t your office keep a copy of what 

9 times we’ve made mistakes on it. 21 you sent to Ektty cwie? 

Iz We might put a wrong number down or spell the zz THE wry@%% No. That’s the one that’s d&royal 

!3 nanx wrong and so we’ve got to retype it or whatever. So 23 A NRORZ So that only one copy was made, the 

14 I have no idea. All I know is that it’s controlled by that 24 original was sent to ESetty Cunie. 

!5 Offlce. 25 THE VJlTNE5s: The original is sent to Betty Currie 

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7 information that’s quested? 

8 A Exactlywbatyouseerightkm. Tkirname,tbe 

9 addressandthephonenumberifthereisone. 

0 Q Dotheyask”Whatdoesthiscallpertainto?” 

1 A Ofcourse,Idon’twanttogetintotheexact 

2 procedureofhowoUsarehandledorcltaredtogointothe. 

3 President, but there is a procedure. 

4 Of course you’ve got to verify this person is the 

5 riglupcrson,youkww. Andwchavcaprocedurr:aadmdhods 

6 to do that. And the operators, as you’re aware, tk White 

7 HOW telephone system, theyk very good at &tami&g - 

B knowing who are the people that are calling the Resident 

9 JustthepubIiccaIIsin,wegetnumerouscalIsfromthe 

3 public that want to talk to the President all day and se on, 

I but that does not go them. That does not get logged in 

2 there. That’srderredtothe umullulta. staffmembersor 

3 dignitaries or so on, that is verified. 

$ I mean, we just don’t say, you know, put the call 

5 over to the President saying we’ve got, you know, the king of 

Page 7 

1 BY MR. EMMICK: 

2 Q What inf~on do you instruct your operators to 

3 obtain from someone who calls in in order to get a hold of 

4 the Resident? For example, I notice thcrt that there is an 

5 address, there’s a name, there’s a return phone number, 

6 theds some other information. What’s the standard 

Page 71 

Spain calling or something like that. The&s a procedure 

and I can’t go into the detail exactly bow we do this, bu 

once it’s referred over there, it’s referred - if it’s in 

the daytime, it’s refcn-cd over there and then it’s not 

necessarily rung in to the President, it’s rung to Betty or 

Nancy, saying that we have a call for the President 

Q Do your operators ask “What is this call 

regarding?” 

A No, they do not. 

Q Okay. So there’s no subject matter that’s 

described on the Presidential call log, it’s just somebody 

called and here’s the number for the return call. 

A That’s cofiect 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Have your operators ever been asked or have you 

cverbecuaskedortoldifXpcrsoncallsorifXpecplecall 

wedon’twanttoseethtirnames~noftheselogs? 

A I have never been told. 

BY MR. EMMICK: 

Q But? 

A But that’s a possibility, telling my operator, the 

one that handles the call, that don’t log the call 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Have you ever heard similar to what I just 

suggested? 

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A The only thing I could say, what I’ve beard is 

specukion. Itcouldhaveb&nanopaatorsayingtkywere 

toldaottodothisandtoldtheirsupervisoror~~ 

ma& them aware of it 

BY hiR. EhfMICK: 

Q TeIl us what you kard 

BY h4R. WlSBNBBRG: 

Q Yes, gives us an example of what you’ve heard 

A I’mtryingtothink. TkewasoneandIdon’t 

LwwwboitwaSbutitwasbraughttomyattentionbymy 

cf66operator,wastoldnottologit,thcntologit I 

don’t know exactly who it was, what caII it was. 

I mean, it’s not necessary that has happened to - 

it’s happeued in other ad~Gnistrauoas, you know, so it’s not 

5 just necessarily this administration, but there are some 

6 callsthat-youcanonlyspzeulatebccausetbenyouseeit 

7 intbepnSstkncxtday,thatsoaDdsowasappointedas 

8 tk~ofDefenseorwhaMr,sosomebowtbey 

9 wanted-theymaythinkitcouldbeIe&edoutthatthe 

0 Resi&nttalkedtosoandsormdtkuextdaytbeman’snamc 

1 isinthepaper,he’sthenewSeuetaqofDefenscor 

2whatmerlikethat. 

3 So k arc some sensitive calls, probably, they 

4 dcm’twxntlogged. Orifhetalkedtosomeonein-you 

5 know,inRussiaorsome&iqlikethat_ I’monlyspeculatk 

Page 8r 

onsomeofthat Ididhear,butit’s-Ican’tverifyit 

for sure. 

Q Iwanttotqtoseparateqecukitionfromany 

evults, tk underlying events. Arc you saying that tke’s 

orllyonetiInewbenyouevenbeardabout-Iwanttotalk 

about the univuse including you being told or you hearing 

that your operators were told not to log - even temporarily, 

not to log a particular call in. 

My question is was there only this one incident 

that you told us about when, like you said, the chief 

opemtorsaidthat someonetoldhimnottologthisandthen 

thercwasachange. Arethereanyotherincidontsliketllis 

rctalIiIltfrisadminiL3tl7itiOn? 

A It’shardtorememberbacktothebegMngofthi 

. . 

Mon. Ittlinktbererniglubavebeulafewotkr 

incidents. 

Q whatamyoutellusbasedmyourmunwywhatyou 

hxWabatttbe--wbatyoukuowaboutwbatkindsofcalls 

thtseviuethatrquestsweremadeon? 

In other words, you’ve given us an example of 

somebodywbocaUatwhomaybcafewdayslatermigbtbaw 

been appointed to a cabinet position. 

AMI&hUlUl. 

Q Ifyourccall,whatkindofpeoplewerebeing 

told-~tbeopen&rsbeingtolddon’tputtbeirnamas I 

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1 onthelog? 1 Tbatpemmquestedtotalkt.otheFVesident, 

2 A That’s a hard question to ask, I’m trying to 2 I guess tky were being considered for an appointment 

3 IuMlIllu. wbatlwouldbavckardwouldluivcbculfrcln&you 3 somewhere or someth&g like that. He was telling the 

4 know,mychicfopcratoroponeofmysupcrvisorsandIcan’t 4 operatorthat. 

5 RzJllygivcyollaIramt,1can’tgivensmtscmcaus~ 5 Q Anddidthatcall6 you how, like I said, it could have been way back. 6 A ~t~a~SmSiti~~~OrSOmethinglik 

7 BYMFLEMMKX 7 that 

8 Q Well,whowouldgivztidixectionnottologthc 8 Q Did that caller request that it not be logged or 

9 call? Would it be the President calling the operator and 9 did Betty then call in and say “Let’s not log that’? 

0 saying”GetaboldoftheSecretaryofDefenst,butQn’tlog 10 A Thatcallermqucsted-I’mtryingtorecallthe 

1 this CiaIl”? 11 conversation. Iwastoldhtmdthatitwasavery 

2 A It could be from the hsident. I’ve nexr kard, 12 personal, sensitive calI, to kt the President know that k 

3 you know, of tht Rtsidcnt saying that. Marc than li.keIy it 13 hadtotalktohim. AndBcUywasxmdeawareofthatandso 

Q wouldbcorlcoftbcindi~intkoffice,dthc?Fkay 14 on. sothenIthinkF3cttyistheonethatr#luesteditnot 

5 CurrieorNancyHanreichorinpastamninisLratinn~whocva 15 belogged. I’mootsureitwasBetty. Somonereqdit 

6 wasintbatpasitioa. Tbeguidancemorcthanlikelywould 16 ootbelogged Idoa’tthinkitwasthcResideat. Itmight 

7comefromthx. 17 have been that individual calling. 

B I’mnotsayingthcPresidenthasneverdoneit. I 18 BY Ms. U’IRTW 

9 meal&1caIVtspeak-youknow,ifanopuatoristbnt,is 19 Q Andtknthatki.simwasoverhmed? lknitwas 

3 workingatmidaightandtbePresidentplacesandacaIland 20 decided that it would be logged? 

I says,“Hey,Qn’tlog~‘Imean,thcopaatormaynotsay 21 A Yes. 

2 anything to anybody so we’re not going to know. 22 

5 So I can’t - you know, it’s all speculation. I 23 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

I didhear~occasions,butIdidn’tbearthattheResidcnt 24 Q Do you know who overtumed it? 

5 saiditor~,itcameoutoftbcoffice,sothatmeant 25 A IthinkitwasBettysaidtologit,tbenext 

Page 82 Page84 

I tbatitwasduringthedaytimcorwhcn somconewasinthc 1 morning or something like that.. 

! Office there. 2 Q DOYOU RzmezIl~whoitwastbatcalled? wbomade 

I BY MR. WENBERG: 3 the call from overseas? 

I Q Whatwasthetypeof-well,thefirstquestionis 4 

S‘doyourecallonanyoftheseoccasionsbeingtoldwhothe 5 

A Yes, I do. 

.Q Whowasthat? 

6 pmonwas~askcd’? Whoeskatthatsomamcnotbcloggcd? 6 A Do I have to say who it is? 

7 In other words, Betty Curie asked -- 7 MR. EMMICK: You do. 

8 A BettyCuniewasoneofthem. 8 MR. WISENBERG: Yes, you do. 

9 Q Do you ti anyone other than Betty? 9 THE ~~TIWSS: I think it was Mr. Holbroolc. 

D A No. Nancycouldhavebeen one,youknow. I don’t 10 BY MR. WI!XNBERG: 

1 remember,justarecentone,that’sallanditwasBetty. II Q That’s Richard Holbmok? 

2 And,again,iftbeoperatorsayssamethingtomorthechief 12 A Right. 

3 opemtor, that’s tbc only way I would have known about it. 13 Q Going back to - if I’m characterizing your 

b BY MR. EMMICK: 14 tcstimonyaccurately,ycxasaidthesewcreafewoccasionsto 

5 Q I didn’t quite hear. You said something, a recent 15 your recollection during this administration whese incidents 

5 one was Betty? 16 ruchasthiswucrqmrtcdmyou~soxndmdywo~d&m 

7 A Well, the one I was trying to talk to you about. 17 opaatornottologaparticularcallaadmyq~ontoyou 

3 Q Andwhenwasthat? 18 is given tk example of Holbrook, for insrancc, it involve! 

J A Oh, a week or two ago or something. I don’t even 

1 knowwhoitisorwas. ‘Ikydidn’twantthecalllogged, 

19 foreign affairs, do you lrnow - wire you told - do YOU ~VIT, 

20 canyolltellus,whatwaetheSeotheroccasions,who~ 

I then they wanted the call logged. Wait a minute. I’m 21 the types of people making thz call? 

1 tryingtothinkofwhatitwas. Ithinkitwasfrom- 22 Thatistosay,wuetheysimilartypeeallstothe 

i I think it was a call from overseas. From someone that 23 Holbrook caIl, you know, an offkid call from somwbat, 01 

I was going to be - well, I don’t know. That’s just 24 m&y--didtheyappeartobemoreofapemonalnature? 

5 speculation. 25 A I really don’t know the answc~ to that one. 

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1 Q You can’t recall? 

2 A I can’t recah ready. You know, I guess, 

3 basically, again, it’s not necessary that -- I think when 

4 it’s reported to the proper channels, my supervisor, et 

5 cetera, when it gets to me, it’s more or less that tlxzy’re 

6 reassured, too, that they’re not doing anything wrong. 

7 And like we always say, you know, you’re there to serv 

8 and you do what you’re told to do, basically. 

9 Q Nothing that made you - none of these incidents 

1 0 that made you raise your eyebrows and say “Why would they 

1 1 want that deleted?” 

1 2 A No. I didn’t say that. No. I mean, it came! to me 

1 3 more or less like the fact of, you know, we& you know, so 

1 4 and so was told not to log that call last night and just in 

1 5 casescimethingcomesupaboutit,aquestionisasked,wt 

1 6 want to make sure you know about it, too, or whatever. 

1 7 And my response would be, welI, you know, if you 

1 8 were told by the proper authority, you’ve got to just follow 

1’ 9 what they tell you to do. 

21 0MR. WISENBERG: I’m stunned to report - 

2 1 THE FOREPERSON: We’re stunned to hear What you’re 

2 2 about to say. 

2 3 MR. WISENBERG: - that lunch is here. 

2 4 THE FOREPERSON: I’m stunned. 

2 5 MR. MENBERG: I’m just noting that for tk 

Page 86 

1 record. 

2 MS. WIRTHZ 1 just have a couple of questions. 

3 BY MS. WIRTH: 

4 Q Who is the supervisor that you were referring to 

5 who is knowledgeable about these requests? 

, 6 A Well, my chief operator is. 

7 Q And who is that? 

B A Kathryn McKeown. 

I 9 Q All right. And when you mentioned a moment ago 

II D that you know that someone isbcingtoldnottologthccall, 

1 l,whohastheauthoritytorequMordemandthatacallaotbe 

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logged? 

A Well, the President - if it came from the 

President of the United States, I don’t think anybody 

else has any more authority than he does. If it came from 

the Vice President, no one has any more authority than he 

does. 

If you get into the staff area, the only ones, 

like I said, that have anything to do with the President’s 

calls and so on would be in that office, that title that 

Betty Cunie or Nancy Hem&h, sonxonc responsible for 

that office, the operations of the Oval Office area 

You know, the President of the United States told 

my operator to do something, I mean, they’re going to do it. 

There’s not going to be any questions asked. 

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Q The question that the grand juror on the back row 

asked before about rbzse forms, PF-3, I take it thae are raw 

notesthatpeoplek&pduringthcdayascallsanaeinand 

calls go out. Those an destroyed, cornxt? At the end of 

tlE day? 

A Whathappensisthatoneachshift,dependswher 

thtcallis,thcy’Iltiteitinpenontkre. 

Q Onthisform? 

A Onthisform. 

Q I see. And&n it’s typed? 

A At the end of the day, it’s typed up. 

Q AndthehamMittenversionsareA Thehandtittenisdestroyed,tornup,thrownin 

the burn bag. 

Q Ithinkthcqu&ionhcwasa~kin&thcn&kdo 

youlreepacopyofthisdocumcn tthatyousendovertoBcq 

Curric. DoyoukccpacopyoftktypaIvusionforynaowa 

records? 

A No. Wedonotkeep-weIl,I’mtryingtothink. 

They may have a typed vasion, but that’s also d&m+. 

ThehandwrittenoneisattachedtoitandthatwiIlhe 

destroyed 

Qwhen? 

A In the morning. So my chief operator or wham 

canverifyit,makesumevery&ing’sconectonit. 

Page 8, 

Q Soyouhavenocopyintherecordskeptbyyour 

offlccoftktypedocumenttllat’ssentovcrtoB&ycunie 

and Nancy Hemreich 

A Wehave-~havcatypedversionofit_ Whatwc 

doistypeuptheoriginalandIthinkthcyXaoxitand 

attach this to the handwritten one. 

Q Why do you do that if you throw it away? 

A Sotheycouldverifythatever@ingisaccumteor 

it,somychiefoperatorinthemorningvesifiesit 

Bccause,likeIsaicI,tbae’setmrsandweweregettingkind 

ofstickyonerrorsthatwerebeingmadeonit. 

Q Andthcnthat-boththchandwrittcnandthctypai 

copy are thrown away. 

A Yes. 

Q And yoy have absolutely nothing in terms of copies 

of~‘sb&n~tovertoNancyHcnvcichandBaty~ 

in tht morning. 

A No. I have nothing. 

Ms. WIRTH: okay. That’s alI I have. 

A JUROk lo ymr cxpcricncc with keeping tbc phone 

log&25yearswertt4isitanunusualtbingtebaveeutain 

! caIlsbereque&dtobetakenofftherecords? 

I lHEwrr%SS Yalhaveto IUIleXnkI’Ve~tkE 

I since the Nixon.era And not precluding that - I man, 

i thtrtwasa-lotofthinaswcntononforeiaaaffairsd~ I 

Pagem Alex George Nagy, 5-19-98 

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I tkNixon~ycwkx~~,withCX~opdngupandR~~~siaand I not good, we can work you in another time. 

2 soon. AndIwasonadiffaentsi&ofthehouseandthere 2 W WIT?@% Okay. I’ll have to check my 

3 were probably the same thin& sozllt very sensitive calls 3 sclxdule. That’s the 26* right? 

4 during that period that they probably didn’t want on call 4 MR. WISENBERG: Yes, it is. And we can have 

s logs that the President spoke on. 5 whatcveragcntyou’vcbocn~ingwithfromouroffictcrm 

6 So I don’t think it’s unusual for ax-tain things. 6 call you on that and work it out. We appreciate it very 

7 I mean, I wouldn’t t&e it that it’s so-g eatirely 7mu&. 

8 diffaent. that’s never been done with this admi&mtion. 8 Any other questions of the witne!s!i? since we’re 

9 All a&nin&aticms have done it. I can’t tell you 9 going to have him back for about au hour - 

0 exactlywifhwbatcallorwhateverlXXzlseIdou’tknow, 10 THEWITNESS: chlyanhollr? 

1 butI~perscthatit’sbecndoae. Justcununoosense, 11 THE FOREPERSON: That’s right. Get it on the 

2 youknow. 12 record 

3 ha. WISENBERG: I‘ll tell you what. I’m going 13 THE-s: Putitontirecord 

4 to ask you, Mr. Nagy, if you would just step outside 14 MR. WTSENBERG: About an hour. 

5 foraboutacoupleofminutcswhilcwcdiscussscheduling 15 THE- Okay. 

6 issues. 16 MR. WISENBERG: And I’ll remind you that while 

7 THE WITNESS: You mean I’m not finished? 17 you’re pafcctly free to talk about what you discussed hen: 

8 (Witness excused. Witness recalled) 18 today, you arc absolutely not required to talk about wha 

9 ha. WISENBERG: Let the record reflect that the 19 went on here today. You understand that, right? 

o witnesshasreenteredthegraudjuryroom. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

1 Madam Foqxrson, do we have a quorum? 21 KR. WISENBERG: Okay. 

2 THE FOREPERSON: We most certahly do. .22 THE WTI-NESS: My own free will. 

3 MR. WISENBERG: Are then: any unauthorizd pesons 23 MR WISPFBERG: All right. Thanks very much. We 

4 in this grand jury room? 24 appreciate it. 

5 THE FOREPERSON: No, there are not. 25 THE WlTNEss: Thank you. 

Page 90 Page 92 

1 Mr. Nagy, you are still undo oath. 1 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 

2 BY MR. WISENBERG: 2 (The witness was excused.) 

3 Q Mr. Nagy, one of the grand jurors wanted this 3 (Whereupon, at 12:33 p.m., the taking of testimony 

4 question asked. You had referenced some meetings 4inthepresenccofafullquonunoftheGrandJurywas 

5 that took plaaz when there were discussions in ‘93 about f concluded.) 

6 revampingtbephonesystemintheWhiteHouse. Doyou 6 ***** 

7 recall that? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Do you know whether or not anybody took notes 

D during any of those meetings? Can you recall that? 

1 .4 Ithink-asamatteroffa&I’mprettyfllre 

2 therewaeminutesofit. Idon’tknowwhotookthem,but 

3 thelsweleminutesbecauseIhadseenthemafterwards. 

I Someone did take minutes. 

5 MR. WISENBERG: Okay. I know that we have 

6 inconvenienced you, not only today, but in the past when we 

7 have ink& you. I thought M wwe going to be able to 

8 finish, but we have some people today who came from out of 

9 town. Ithink~haveaboutan~ieftwithyou~difwc 

0 continue, 1 don’t think we’d be able to get done with those 

1 people. 

2 So I apologize profusely for that and we ark going 

3 to ask you, if it’s consistent with your schedule, to come 

4 back next Tuesday for about another hour. And if you’d Iike, 

5 we could talk to you about that over the phone. If Tuesday’s 

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PROCEEDINGS 

Whereupon, 

ALEX GEORGE NAGY 

wascalledasawitnessandaftcrhavingb&ndulyswomby 

the Fozpcrson of the Grand Jury, was examined and testified 

a-f0n0ws: 

-ATION 

MS. WIRlH: And, for tbc razor& we have a quorum? 

THE FOREPERSON: Yes, we do. 

MS. WIRY l And there are no unauthorized person! 

in the grand jury? 

THE FOREPERSON: Then are not. 

BY Ms. WIRTH: 

Q Mr. Nagy, you appeared last before this grand jur, 

on May 19,1998, which was last Tuesday. Is that rights 

A That’s CorrcCt 

Q And do you recall your rights as a federal 

grand jury witness as they= given to you last time by 

Mr. Wise&erg? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q And you don’t need those to be given to you again 

do you? 

A No, I do not. 

Q Okay. Just a moment ago, we had a brief 

conversation outside the grand jury where you advised me thal 

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sina the last time you testified that certain things have 

recurred to you in addition to things you testified about 

previously. Is that correct? 

A Yes, that is. 

Q Okay. And one of those matters involves lists of 

telephone numbs-s of people employed at the White House : 

that light? 

A That’s correct. 

Q What additional information do you have for the 

grandjury? 

A Tk telephone system has numbers that are 

associated with individuals in each office throughout th 

Executive Offree of the President There is a record or 

list that is provided on a monthly basis to each 

organization, like the White House, ohm, et cetera, and I 

goes to one of their people responsible to have that 

infolmation. 

Q Now, the last time you ttstified, I believe you 

said that a White House telephone list is generated 

approximately twice a year. Is that &rect? 

A A list of telephone numb& is$enerated on a 

monthly basis. 

Q Okay. And how is this distinct from the telephon 

book that comes out twice a year approximately? 

A The telephone directory is a telephone directory. 

&Page4 

Q And what is this that you’re talking about? 

A It’s just a list of phone numbers and_individuals 

and organizations. It’s a general list of just their of&z 

telephone number. 

Q Okay. 

A .% Other list, t0 distinguish, to clarify, is a 

list of every telephone number that is in the Executive 

Office of ti President. Every m or 10 number. AIN 

whattver office that that coincides or p&ins to goes to 

that office on a monthly basis for them to verify the 

accuracy of it. 

Q Okay. Just so that I can understand this better 

and the grand jury can, too, the monthly list that you’re 

talking about, does it contain a list of employees in 

alphabetical order Iike most phone lists? T is it something 

different? 

A It is something different It’s a list that’s 

broken down by the individual offices per se within 

the White House, what numbers that they have, like it 

will say the First Lady’s office or the press office, 

et cetera 

Q Okay. So, for example, for the First Lady’s 

office, the example that you gave, would this monthly list 

give a list of the employees in the First Lady’s office or 

just the telephone numbers associated with that office? 

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1 A It gives the number and I bclim it shows the 

2 office, like the First Lady, and in the comments it may 

3 designate who it belongs to. It may say the person. 

4 Q who generates this IIIOnthly list? 

5 A It’s by the contractor, AT&T, which iS gktb to 

6 the - which I explained before, U’s a contracting 

7 officer for the Executive office of the President. 

8 Q And who would that be? 

9 A That’s Mrs. Cheryl Hall. The one that’s presently 

I 0 Q Okay. So Cheryl Hall would have custody of tbeae 

1 1 monthly lists? 

1 2 A Yes. Sks ’ the one that has it distributed 

1 3 Q And is it distributed, this monthly list, to 

1 4 everyone in the White House? 

1 5 A No. It’s distributed to certain individuals iike, 

1 6 for example, the White House onegoes to the Special 

1 7 Assistant to tbe President, to the president for White House 

1 8 Operations, the administrative office. 

I! 9 Q Do you get one in the course of your work? 

21 0A No. I didn’t get one. On occasion, I did get one 

2 1 toprovidcto-IwasaskcdforitbytbcSpccialAssistant 

2: 2 to tbe Pmsidcnt for white House Adxnic&&ou and that war 

2. 3 back in 1997. I forget what month it was. 

2, 4 Q So this monthly list is not widely distributed in 

2. 5 the White House. 

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A No, it is not. Not that I know of. 

Q Okay. Now, do you recall the last time you 

~p~youzaworyouwerr:sbownrdocumcntwhichwap~ 

Jury Exhibit - a copy, excuse me, of Grand Jury Exhibit 

PF-3. Do you remember this document? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q And what information, if any do you have for the 

grand jury about this document? 

A I believe I made a statement that thz’s mom that 

goes on this log, possibly I think it was tat spaces, I think 

I said. To be wraet, there’s clcva~ individual spaces where 

you can make entries on it 

Q Okay. So the last time you testified that this 

document, which is Grand Jury Exhibit PF~, appeared to have 

been redacted Correct? 

A Yes, it was. 

Q Okay. &cause in fact only one line, an entry for 

one line, appears on this document. Is that right? 

A That’s Correct. 

Q And what’s you’re saying is that last time you 

thought that there wem approximately ten entries on each 

page. 

A fight. 

Q And now in fact you’ve counted and there are in 

fact eleven. 

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A Eleven 

Q Okay. Now, another matter on which you would ‘*‘-,: 

to provide furuxl information relates to tbe revamping, 

the phone system in 1993. Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q What new information do you have about that or 

additional information? 

A Thinking about that, back in 1993, prior to 

the phone systan beii actdly activated and implanented, 

I believe I mentioned there was a committee that was 

fORId. 

This committee was composed of different 

individuals from different agencies, as well as a project 

manager from ti contractor, AT&% a project officer or a 

contracting officu from the governmen 5wllicllwasoutof / 

the Office of Admix&ration at that time; and an outside :. 

I 7 contractor that was contracted, who was Mr. John Anderson 

8 ofTbeAndersonGmup,Ibelievehiatitleis. Hewasczo 

9 of that group. 

0 Q Okay. And do you have any additional information 

1 for the grand jurlv regarding each telephone in‘ the White 

2 House and wbix cacb tckphonc is associati with a numbu? 

3 A Each telephone -- excuse me. Going back also to 

4 thelastqucstion5 Q Sure. I’msony. 

P&1 

1 A Iwasaskedalsoiftherewasanykindofmcords 

2 orminutcsthatwcrctaken. 

3 Q Yes. 

4 A TlzrewereminutestakenofthatandIbelieveit 

5 wastheprojtctmanagcrfromAT&Tthatdidthatorthtoae 

6 from the govemmen~ 

Q 

A 

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And do you know who those people would be? 

Yes, I do. 

Whoartthey? 

It was Mr. Paul McQuillan. 

WhoiShC? 

He was the project manager for AT&T. 

How does he spell his last name? 

Capital hf, small c, capital Q, u-i-l-l-a-n. 

And you feel fairly certain that hc took minutes? 

I’m fairly certain he took it or the representative 

from the go vernmeng from Oh 

Q Fromwhere? 

A FramtbeOflieeofA&Mshation,tbereptbat~ 

part of that committee. 

Q Okay. Andwhowasthat? 

A ThatwasMr.LarryJurich 

Q How do you spell that? 

A J-u-r-i-c-h. 

0 Andwhcrtdoeshework? 

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Department. WhenhewasattheWhitcHous;hcwasatthc 

Office of Administration. He was in the sawity department 

there, the data work. 

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have there, but there are some that they have in ti 

residence. 

Q And that’s because they’re commdl ‘al records that 

are kept? 

Q Okay. Do you have anything additional that you 

want to tell us about that you can think of? 

A No. Going on to your other question, you asked 

about& number, tht phones, the individual number? 

Q Ye& 

A I’m sony, I intempted you to go back. 

Q That’s all right 

A Each telephone under the present system has an 

individual number that’s assigned ta McCourt for the phone. 

That number is utilized by the staff as a primary private 

iuxmber. Eachphonehasoneofthesenumbers lkycimals 

pick up additional numbers, but this is tk main numb 

that’s assigned to that phone. 

Q Okay. All right. What I’dliketodoisjust 

recap a little bit of the information that you gave us the 

lasttinrtandaEky~uafcwquestionswithrapccttooch 

&a. 

Onceagain,withrespecttotheWhiteHouse 

telephones that art used in tlx offices, not in the 

residence, but in tk offices of the White House, with 

respaz to White House t&phone services telephones, your 

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testimony was that long distance nxords on thos telephones 

cannot be obtained. Is that correct? 

A That’s correct. 

Q Okay. And you’ve also testified that local - 

information on local calls on those telephone-s cannot be 

obtained. Is that correct? 

A That’s wrrect. 

Q And with respect to international calls, did you 

say that those also cannot be obtained or that they can? 

A They can be obtained, but they’re not identifed 

with any telephony: number for any of the phones. They’re 

identified with the bunking that it goes out over out of the 

main system. 

Q And what does that mean? 

A Basically, on your telephone system you have a 

t&phone,whatwecallatnx&thataccommodattsnumerous 

lines. If you dial out on it, we just go out on this trunk. 

It’s separate and it doesn’t identify tk telephone, it 

identifies the trunk. It doesn’t identify the telephone 

number. 

Q Okay. Now, again, to review on the White House 

residence telephones, you testified that you can get long 

distance rewrqS, but only on numbers that begin with a 

pnfut that’s different from 456. Is that wnzct? 

A I believe. And I don’t know how many numbers they 

A They’re commercial. Yes. 

Q Okay. And do you know if then a?: 4 numkrs in 

lhe residence? 

A Yes, the= are some. 

Q Okay. Do you know what any of those numbas arc? 

A No, I don’t know. They would r+x under - again, 

I that would come under the ushers of&. Then’s a 4 

2 numbcrthatsoestotheswitchboard,butthat’slikcadinct 

3line. 

4 Q Okay. Anddoyouknowwktkrthe~numkrsin 

5 thercddclre,wktherthepcrsonwhopickupthatlinehas 

6 tkoprionofgoingthrnughtheswitchboardandmakinga 

7 directcallthemselves? 

3 A They have the option of going through the 

3 switchboard or they have the option of dialing direct. 

1 Q And with the other numbers .where the prefix is 

I differcat from a with those nun- the person is dialing 

1 dinct who picks up the phone. Is that correct? 

I A YS. 

I Q Okay. Bytheway,whopaysthebillsontheWhite 

i House residence phones whem the p&ix is not w 

Page I: 

A It wmes under the ushers office. I think it comes 

under the residence billing, I believe. 

Q And, once again, with respect to tk White House 

rrsidcncephonts,asfarasyoubrow,thcrearenorrcotds 

kept of local calls out of those phanes. wkthu the p&ii 

is I) or something else. Is that right? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay.__Now, you also told us that the Resident can 

makcadkctcallfmmtheOvalOfficcwithoutgoingthrougl 

the switchboard Is that right? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. And you also told us that the Preside& c= 

make a direct call from the rsidcna without going through 

the switchboard. Is that right? 

A Yes. 

A JUROR: Can I ask a question real quick? 

M!S.wnUH: sun. 

A JUROR: With the style telephone system that yoi 

have, it’s electronic and, say, for instanot, I’m in Betty 

Curie’s office and I pick up the line and I want to call 

overseas. Isitnottruethatifallofthelixsinoat 

particulartnmkanbusybecauseitisekctronicitwill 

sean%aUtktnmksuntilitfindsanopenliDeandthcElgo 

out? 

ti WfINEss: Yes. I believe you are wrztct 

d 

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1 AJUROR: Thank YOU 

2 BY MS. WIRTH: 

3 Q You testified last time about WHCA secure lines, 

4 right? 

5 A Yes. Whatever knowledge I had of it. 

6 Q Pardon me? 

I A The limited knowledge I have of it 

8 Q You said that it was your understanding that in tb 

9 OvalOfflicc~arr:botbarH~sac~lincsand~cArcgular 

o lines, right? 

1 A Yes. 

2 Q oitay. Are the secure lines on a separate 

3 telephone? Do you know? ’ 

4 A The secure he is OII a separate telephone. 

5 Q Okay. Anddoyoulcnowwhethcxtousetbewri~ 

6 securelinetomakeacallyoubave~_becaUingscnnemeti 

7 isalsoonaWHCAsecumI.inc? 

B A Yes, you do. Not necessarily a WHCA secure line, 

? another secure line. 

1 Q But another secure line. 

I A A government secure line. 

1 BY MR. WISENBERO: 

3 Q Is then any way you can tell - 

I Do you mind if I interrupt, Mary Anne? 

5 MS. WIRTHZ No, go ahead. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Page 14 

Q Is then any way you can tell from a printout, 

we’ve got some printouy I think WC showed you example5 of 

them last w-e& that were partially redact& wc’vc got some 

from the regular switchboard and some from the WHCX 

switchboard. Is thuz any way that you’re aware of from 

looking at the wxicA printout that you can tell which of the 

two lines it was on, the secum or the non? 

A ?hcon~ythingyoUshomdmcwasoncoftheWhite 

House with a Betty Currie call on it. 

Ms. WRTH: Okay. I’m going to put before you 

Grand Jury Exhibit PF-~, which is a one-page document. 

BY Ms. WIRTH: 

Q Can you look at that and tell Us whether that’s 

something you recognize? 

A Just by reading the stuff, it’s the signal 

switchboard presidential call log. 

Q Have you ever seen this before, this type of 

document? 

A ~SaXiitWhcnIWaS~WHCA. 

Q DoyoulmowifthisisarecordkptbythewBcA 

switchboard people? 

A Yes, it would be. 

Q Iguessthequestionwaswhetheronthis 

document - 

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Q Can you look at a document like that and 011 

whether the person was Using the more s2xu-c lir~ ,’ 

lessstcurriineor~tthcytho~twasamorrsccurr 

line? 

A No, you can‘t. I don’t know - I can’t. I don’t 

knowwbattbesenumbexsare,iftbeyareasaaenumbcrora 

regular administrative number. They havt - lib: it says 

White House signal, reading this here, it looks lik it is a 

direct line to the signal switchboard, 

Q All right. You referred to numbers and that would 

be, for instance, on the 5: 12 p.m. entry on PF-6 it says 

A Yes. 

Q whueastheonetightabovethatsays- Is 

that corrxt? 

A Thst’sconcct 

Q Is it conceivable that those would be two different 

extcnsionsoueoftbemwouldbethemoresurureline? Or 

would you just be guessing at that? 

A JwouldbeguessingatthatbecauseIdon’tknow 

what these numbers are. 

Q Allright. Butasfarasyoulookingatthis 

particular document, baS5.d on wbat you fcma&r abalt your 

time in wxicrr. there’s nothing without further rcseW& 

Page-10 

I wouldtcllyouwfiichoftbctwo~CAlints~is. Isthat 

1 a fair statanent? 

I A Thats ’ a fair sWcment. correct. 

b hm.wIsENBERo: Thanks. 

r BY MS. WIRTHz 

i Q Now,canyoutellmeifmyunderstandingofthe 

1 phoncwagcintheovaloffl.aiiscomctiuthtfou~ 

8 sens,isittmetbattbeonlywaytbattbePrrsidcatum&i 

9 makeacaUfromtbeOvalOfftcewitboutgoingthmugbtbc 

D switchboardwouldbeaaanon-~clsliae,~aWhiteHous 

1 telephone services line, in other words? Is that true? 

2 A I’m not sure about the capabilities on that WECA 

3 linetheyhave. Idoknowonourhne. 

4 Q Hecanmakeadirectcallonyourline. 

5 A Yes. 

5 Q WhichistheWhiteHousettlepho~~&cesline. 

1 A TheIlinumber. 

I Q Okay. Ithoughtyoutrstifiedthelasttimeht 

t ifbcmakesatelephonecalloatbc~~linckbasto~ 

) thmugh the switchboard. Is that true? 

I A ~fSraSIknOW,tOthebcstOfmyrecolled: 

I Q Okay. Soasfarasyoulmow,ht’snotcap~_c 

.._ 

I makingadireetcallonawricAlinc. 

I A -ihtS- ’

1 

i Q Okay. Iwanttogobackforamomcattotbzlists,~ 

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PF-3 and so on, ‘the lists that you testified were ma& by 

your midnight shift 

A It was typed up by them. Right. 

Q lbetyped-GrandJuryt’~3isanexampleoftbat, 

right? 

A YeS. 

Q And you testified a few minutes ago that in fact 

you’ve~~~sinctthclasttimeyouwerthcrcandtbcn 

are eleven entries normally kept on each of these documents, 

right? 

A That’s correct 

Q Now, who ate the people by name who type up this 

list and have typed it up for the past three years? lf you 

know. 

A ‘Thapossibility-itcouldbeevuyoneoftht 

staffintbeWhittHouseswit&board,tbeopemtomortbe 

suptnrisors. And there’s 13 of them. 

Q okay. Do people rotate through the midnight shift? 

A ‘hcydo,occasiomlly. Wetrytokepapcmanew 

shift, but wedon’t have the personnel, so we do rotate them 

for leaves, they call out sick. et cetera 

Q Okay. Couldyougiveusasmanynamesasyouean 

3 remember of the people who are on your switchboard? 

4 A YCS, ICOd. 

5 Q Could you do that? 

Page 18 

A .Okay. There’s - the present supervisor is Brenda 

Daniels. 

Q And how long has she been the supervisor? 

A Shes ’ be-en he, I think, about IS years. 

Probably out of that time she’s hem supervisor maybe 10 

yCa=. 

Q Okay. And she supervises on a rotating basis 

through the day and the midnight shift? 

A She’s majority on the midnight shift, but to give 

her a break., we have other people that have to fill in. 

Q Does she review these lists after they’re done? 

A Yes, she does. As a matter of fact, the policy, I 

believe now, on the switchboard is at the end of each shift, 

the supervisor in charge would review it for the accuracy and 

Brenda is the final one that reviews it before she types it 

upQ Who are the other supervisors who might rotate 

through tht midnight shift? 

A’ Tlxxe’s Joan Nichols. 

Q How.do you spell that? 

A N-i-c-h-o-l-s. 

Q Okay. 

A Mary Rouse. 

Q How do you spell that? 

A R-o-u-s-e. Let me sa. Viinia Soutlxrland 

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Very seldom she’s down them. but there’s a possibility she 

could - all these supervisors do review this log, like I 

stated. And Eileen Bean, B-e-a-n. 

Q Okay. Andcanyougiveusasmanyofthenamcsof 

the switchboard opemtors as you can remember? If you eatl. 

A I’ll have to go shift by shift so I can remember 

them. Yvonne Bailey. Let me sec. On the day shift is 

Carmella Williams, Kimberly Byrd, B-y-r-d, Donna 

‘Fate-Allison. 

Q How do you spell that last name? 

A Tate, T-a-t-e, dash Allison, A-l-l-i-s-o-n. 

Janet Gordon, G-o-r-d-o-n. Lottie Graham. 

Q G-r-a-h-a-m? 

A C~rrcct. And we have one male and I’m going tc 

messhislastna3neup. ThefrrstnameisLinus. 

Q LA L-i-n-u-s. And the last name is, I believe, 

spelled A-m-o-i-s-h or something similar to that. 

Q A-m-o-i-s-h? 

A Right. And presently the chief operator is Kaw 

McKeown, which I so stated before. 

Q You did 

A shes ’ been there 30 year& SO shes ’ - 

Q And what is htr job? 

A Shes ’ the chief onerator now ~rcxntlv. At ane 

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time,waybaekiuherbistoty,shebadbaznanoperatoraad 

she’s been supetisor, et cetera. 

Q And how does she spell her last name? 

A Capital M, small c, capital K., e-o-w-n. 

Q Okay. Now, these lists of which PF-3 is an 

example, do you know if they’re typed on a typeher or on 

computer? 

A They.~typcdonatypewriter. 

Q Okay. Do you pcrsonaily review those lists at an 

timeorhaveyouinthepastthmeyears? 

A I’ve looked at them once in a while when I get on 

the switchboard or I get briefed on them. 

Q Okay. Have you ever sen Monica Lewinskys ’ name on 

any of those lists? 

A I don’t recall I ever did see her name on it, 

No, I did not. 

Q Has anybody you work with on the switchboard, 

either qenfisor or employ&, mentioned to you that tbey%e 

seenheraameonthelist? 

A Ib&vcKaUuynMcKanmmahoncdsczn&@about 

Monica L&n&y, oot nuzs!&ly on a list. Something abou 

a call or something, she mentioned 

Q Did she tell you anything about the call? 

A No. Maybe she might have called, was going to call 

orthczwasgoingtobcacaUtokrorwhtever. ldon’t 

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I ~~41. All I remember is her name, she mentioned something 

2 about it 

3 Q Did you have this conversation with MS. McK~o~~ 

4 before t&s story became public in January of ‘98 or after? 

5 A I believe it was after. It might have been before. 

6 Q WaathenameMonicaLewinskyfamiliartoyouin 

7 January of ‘98 when this story became public? 

8 A No. I didn’t even know the lady before thm. 

g Other than what I read in the paper afterwards. 

0 Q But you’ve had a cmvasation with I(athryn MCK~M 

! about her. 

2 A She mentioned to me something about a call. 

3 Q Anybody else in the switchb&rd, either supefviso 

4 cxnonmpcmkor,wbo’sbmUghfMoaiuLcwinzky’rDamcqm 

5 you or tie you have heard having information about her? 

6 A No. Idon’tncall. 

7 Q Okay. Now, I’d like to &for a moment &out 

8 ollseomingintotheWhiteHouse,okay? Is&real&of 

9 accept.ablecallerswhoarepemGttedtospeaktothe 

:o President? 

II A Yes. 

:2 Q Okay. And is that list kept at tlx switchboard? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q iv&O composes that list? 

15 A Its ’ originated in the office of Betty Currie and 

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the list who call to speak to the President? What happens to 

their call? 

A They are referred or cleared through Betty C. _U 

office or Nancy Hemreich. 

Q Okay. Soifa~~ypuxmonthesWet,tmyAmai~~~ 

or anybody else, called ‘and said “I want to speak to 

President Clinton,” would that call as a matter of eourslt be 

referredtoBenyCurrieorNaneyHemreiehiftheperson 

wasn’t on the list? 

A Not massarily. No. Them callsgoto the comment 

offia. 

Q To the comment offia? 

A The comment offia. 

Q Okay. 

A ‘Ihegeneralpubliccalls. Ifwe’rttalkingthc 

_.. 

6 rcalmofpossiblya congnssmanorsenatororoUxrhigl 

7 govunm&t official, then that would refer to that offla. 

8 Q Okay. Okay. Do you know if the comment office 

9 keeps Itcords of those calls? .’ 

D A I have no idea I don’t ‘&ink they probably do. 

1 The keep records of the amount of people calling, 

2 number-wise, not individuals by name. 

3 Q who’s in charge of the comment offla? 

4 A Right now, it’s Mr. Patrick Briggs. 

5 Q IfsomeoneeallstheswitehboardandasksforB 

Page-L 

1 Nancy Hemreich 

2 Q Okay. And - I’msony? 

3 A I don’t actually know who - it comes out of that 

4 office. 

5 Q Okay. And how often does it come out? 

6 A Whenever there’s changes to it, I imagine. 

7 Q Whenever a name is added or subtracted, do they 

8 snda~olenewlistoutordotheyjust011someoneup~ 

9 say “Add this name, subtract that name”? 

0 A I believe that they call down and add it or 

1 subtract it 

2 Q And so there’s an actual physical document that 

3 exists somewhere in the switchboard area that’s a list of 

4 acceptable callers to the President. Is that right? 

5 A Ihat ‘ S ’ COIRCt. 

6 Q Okay. And, to your knowledge, has Monica Ixwinsky 

7 ever been on that list? 

8 A Not to my knowledge. 

9 Q To your knowledge, has anyone ever given any 

0 in.struclions that her name should not be on the list? 

1 A Not that I’m aware of. 

2 Q Toyourknowledgqhasbernameevcrbccnremoved 

3 fromthe list? 

4 A Not that I’m aware of. 

5 Q Now, what happens to callers whose names are not on 

I Currieasd.istinctfromthePresident_amtheyaskedto 

2 identify them&m or is the call put right though? 

3 A I believe they’re asked to identify themselves. 

4 Q And is there a list for acceptable Betty Currie 

5 calls or not? 

5 A No, not that I know of. 

1 Q WhatisthepraetitiwithEspeCttoputtingaCaIl 

5 through the Betty Curlie? 

3 A I believe that the operator would find out who m 

1 calling and would contact Betty and sot if she would aaept 

thecall,takethccall. 

Q Soifh-kmicahwhskywereto~theswitcbboard 

andasktospc~to&ttyCunie,whatwouldbetht 

prcxxdurc? 

A This, a~ I so stated, probably sht would be put on 

hold and call Betty C&c and notify Betty Currie u*: have 

her calling, would she take the call. 

Q Okay. 

A Im ’ Ody pnsuming this, 1 dy - h10+ from 

othcrca14BatyCurric,hrnumbcrisnotpub~andso 

on, so they’ve got to go through the switchboard, r ‘E 

would be notifii who’s calling for her. 

Q Doyouhaveanyknowledgewhatsoeverastowhetbuwhdha”~ 

MonicaIJmin&yewxcallalibctitchboardandaakcdfcl? 

Betty Cunie? A 

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1 A No, I don’t have any fvsthand howledge of that_ 

2 Q Have you heard of any of Ihe switchboard opcmtos 

3 or their supervisors discussing the fact that Monica would 

4 cdl tht switchboard asking for Bmy Cunie? 

5 A No, I don’t recall ever hearing that from them. 

6 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

7 Q But nothing would pnvmt Monica L&n&y from 

8 caIlingBettyCuny’sdiraztn~ifshcknewit,conzct? 

9 A If she knew it. And ‘also it’s not necessarily - 

0 you blow, an opaator may not say anyThing if Som~nc caue4 

1 too. You know, wouldn’t say it to anybody else. any other 

2 staff members or other operators. 

3 BY MS. WIRTH: 

4 Q Now, referring to the caller ID system for a 

5 mamcn~if,forexampleIMonicaLzwinsQweEtocalltk 

6 swit&boardandaskforBettyaPrieandifforsorncreason 

7 shewasput.rightthroughwitboutacalltoBettyCurrie, 

8 ;whd nu@~~would rbow up on Berry Cur&% screen, calkr to 

9 screen? 

0 A IfshewentdirecttoBettyCunie? 

1 Q No. 

2 A If she went through the switchboard? 

3 Q tight. 

4 A It’s going to be the White House switchboard 

5 number. 

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Q Okay. And if Monica Ixwin&y wcn to call Betty 

Curric directly. what number would appear on the screen? 

A That d dqdS Whcrc Sk’s calling frOm. ?ba'C'S 

a possibility if she’s calling local that it would show the 

numbershe’scallingfrom. Ifstr’scallingoutofstateor 

long distanq just like in your caller ID it says - I 

believe it says ouf of area, out of state or private or 

something like that. 

Q Is that always the case, that you can’t get caller 

~fromoutofstatecinyourscruqanoutofstatecalI? 

A There's some that.you may get the number on, but 

there’s ways of people blocking that out, too. So usually 

you - I would say if the person is blocking that out, they 

dial that *69 or whatevex, you wouldn’t receive that 

information. 

Q Okay. Now, you told us that the ushers offa is 

responsible for the White House residence telephones, 

Correct? 

A That’s correct. 

Q Do you have any information, though, as to where 

the telephones arelocated in the residena, what rooms 

they’re in? 

A It’s been a long time since I’ve been over there. 

I could attest to past memory on where some of them 

numbers are. I can’t say where the other numbers are at 

Pagz 2’ 

1 Q Okay. If a call is made directly to the resider==, 

2 for wmpk. ar one of tbc ~numte%do you know u-b0 UVAI 

3 pick up that call? If you know. 

4 A It depends whar number it went to in the residence. 

5 Q If it was a Il)number. Do you knopr? 

6 A Well, there are~numbers in different axeas 

7 over there. Whoeva is in that ares would pick that pharr 

8 upifitrang&re,Ibelieve. Mostofthephoneulls, 

9 I know the ocrs from our operation. from the switcbboad 

10 wc go through tk ushers office first. We alm them tha 

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w&e ringing a call in and they would tell us where to ring 

it, basically. Wl~xc the individual is at, where we’re 

calling. 

Q Doy~knowiftherearepeoplcovertherewhopick 

uptbcphonesfortbePresickntandtheFrntFamily’! Oris 

itjustlikcanyottrrplacewherepeoplejustpickupdu 

phoneiftheyllappentobethere? 

A Ifitgocstooneoftheiidirectphoncs,th: 

direct phone numbers of the P&dent or First Lady, they’re 

going to pick it up, I would say. ,’ 

Q Okay. Do you know if the& are WHCA lines in th 

residence? 

A Ibelievethercanafew. 

Q Iwanttotalkforamomentaboutwhathap~when 

the President travels and how he uses the phone. If ti 

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President is making, for example, a business-related trip 

howdoesthepbonesystcmwork? Howdcesheusthephar 

when he travels? If you know. - 

A I don’t really know. That’s under WHCAX realm 

because it would be using their services mostly. 

MR. WISENBERG: Pardon us just a moment. 

(Pause.1 

BY M&WIRTH: 

Q Mr. Nagy, you weal interviewed by FBI agents for 

tk OfTice of tbt In-dent Counsel in February of ‘98, is 

that right? Ear&r this yeai? 

A Ibelieveso. Iwasoverthcrttwia. Ibelieve 

itwas-alsotbezewasatimeinSeptembcrof’97Imight 

have been there, the latter part of ‘97, around there. 

Q But in connection with the Monica Lewinsky matter, 

you were intu&wed some time. in the winter of ‘98, is that 

UXTect? 

A Thats ’ ConcCL 

Q After this story became public, is that right? 

A Thats ’ corztct 

MR. WENBERG: Pardon us just a second. 

(Pa=.) 

BY MS. WIRlHz 

Q And you said that you’ve been previously 

intiewecl by tk Offii of the Independent Co& you 

.1 Divcrsificd Rcporkinn Services, Inc. (202) 296-292y 

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P Re: Grand Jury Proceedings MUll 

Page 2! 

I think it was in 1997, is that right? 

2 A That’s correct. 

3 Q And that was also by FBI agents? 

4 A That’s correct. I believe there was also a counsel 

5 from -- a lawyer from the Independent COUnSClS ’ OffiCe dS0 

6 then. 

7 Q Okay. And that’s in the earlier interview. 

8 A That’s the earlier interview. 

9 Q Okay. And that was in connection with another 

0 investigation other than the Monica Lzwinsky matter. 

1 A That’s correct. 

2 Q Okay. Can you telI the grand jury what, if 

3 anything, happened on that occasion with respect to 

4 any interaction you had with the White House Counsel’s 

5 Office? Before that earlier interview. Were you given 

6 any advice? 

7 Did you speak to anybody 2 the White House 

8 Counsel’s Of&e before you had the first intnvicw with the 

Y Office of the Independent Counsel? 

D A Yes, I did. 

1 Q And who did you speak with? 

2 A I forget what her name was. If you have tbt name 

3 I could remember because there was a couple of them that 

4 talked to me. 

5 Q Does the name Sally Paxton - 

Page 30 

1 A Yes. Yes. That’s who it was. 

2 Q Has she left? 

3 A I believe she’s gone now. Yes. 

4 Q Okay. And what about Michelle or Shelly P-n? 

5 A Yes. 

5 Q Did you speak to both of them prior to your first 

I interview with the OffIce of the Independent Counsel? 

3 A I believe I did Yes. 

? Q And did they make any suggestions to you during 

1 that interview? During that meeting? 

I A About getting counsel, having counsel represent me. 

1 Q Who suggested that? 

i A I believe both of them did. 

1 Q And-goahead. 

5 A I’m trying to remember now. I’m trying to remember 

i exactly -- yes, I believe both of them did, not necessarily 

I at the same time. At different times. 

! Q And this conversation was held with you prior to 

) your interview? 

1 A Yes, because when I got notified, they called me 

I directly from the Independent Counsel’s office and, of 

! course, I let my supervisor - notified them that I’d been 

I contactcdandsoonandtbtnIwascontacttdbythe~l’s 

I office. 

i Q Okay. And what respeme, if auy, did you give when 

Pagcm Tuesday, May 26, 1998 

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you were advised to get a lawyer? 

A I says, “I don’t think I need anything. I’ll jl* 

answer the questions that are askd me.” 

Q And in fact did you get a law)u for your first 

interview with the Office of the Independent Counsel? 

A I have not had a lawyer yet. 

Q And you don’t have one today or the last time you 

testified? 

A No.1 donot 

Q Okay. Did anything happen after you ma& your 

decision - or after your intim, your first interview 

with tht Office of the Independent Counsel? Anything 

unusual? 

A Afte? my first i~~terview? 

Q Mm-lrmm. 

A %s,tbrzewasanbcickntwhichImi@bavctook 

it out of context, but it just seemed coincidental that after 

I had my inteiview the fti time with the Independent 

Counsel, wbicb I believe was *tember, I believe the fti 

wakinOctober,Iwasonl~veafmdaysandIcaIkdback 

asIusuallydotochcckonhowtbingsarr:goingwithmy 

+ arsistantatthctimt,andIwasinformcdthatIhadItcdvcd 

3 soniemaiIthrougbtheintcreffia,thatthtnwasalcttain 

4 it going to me basically reprimanding me for a prm that 

s I tried to enlighten a little bit 

Page 3 1 

pa@-34 

1 Andthatcaughtme-Igotangryoverthething 

2 and I told my assistant, “WelI, don’t worry about it, I’ll 

3 takecareofitwhenIgetback.” 

4 Q Okay. And who was the source of the reprimand? 

5 A ItwasframMr.Fnx&linRidPwhoisnowr&ed, 

6 who was the Director of Offke of Administratiw 

7 Q Andhewasthepersonthatiasuedthereprimand? 

6 A Yes. 

9 Q Was anybody else involved in it? 

3 A Onit,ithadcc-IbeIieveitwasJodie 

I Torkelson, Kim Holmes and Mike Malone. 

2 Q Andbadyouevernxeiveda+mandbefcnetbat? 

3 A Not in my 3O-some years. 

4 Q Okay. And how soon after your frrst intaview with 

5 the Offia of the Independent Counsel did that take pIam 

5 A Ibe&veitwasaboutaweekorsoafterthat 

I btcausewhcaIgotbacltfrom]eavtI~tandsacnMr. 

8 Rieter. 

P Q Okay. What was the resolution of that reprimand? 

A I~basicaIlytoldthatIwasoutofIinefor 

F puttingoutapmceduretbatwasjeopardiz@people’rt 

!2 thattheyhadputout<thcyhadputou~ Itwasur 

!3 ~actiontypething. AndalIIwsstryiagtoQvw” 

!4 putitinforourscction,tocmbcllishitalittlebit,to 

~5 tell our peopk exaetIy what to do and what not to do. 

Divcrsificd Rcuorting Scrviccs. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

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And so &en I went to meet with Mr. Rieter, first 

of all, I was kind of upset and he seen I was upset. And I 

asked him, I says, “Well, what is this’? You know, is this a 

letter of reprimand?” He said, “Yes, it is, but it’s not 

really going in your records. We just have a file and 

Ms. Torkelson has it” 

And I says, ‘Well. you know, this was improper, the 

wayyouhandlcdiSbecaustIwasDcvacalledandwunscll# 

on it, I wasn’t counselled on this by anybody, you sent i 

through an interoffke wkre it was an cmbarrassllent to me 

where people could have seen this, and you waited until I m 

on leave to do all this.” 

And I says, “Also, I don’t think it’s worth the 

paper it’s written on because you’re the director of the 

Offloc of Adinin&&on and I’m White House and I work on 

White House rolls md I’m paid by the White Houz, I don’t 

have anything to do with you” 

He said, “Well, I’m the deputy to Jcdie Torkelsou.’ 

So I says, “Well, evidently we’re not going to get this 

resolved,” so I said, “I’ll talk to Ms. Torkelson about it 

myself” 

Q And did you do that? 

A Yes.1 did. 

Q And what happened? 

A Well, she basically told me that I was out of line 

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for doing that and brought up a few other things. And I 

says, “Well, you know, this is just coincidental. I just 

went about a wk ago to the Independeat Counsel aud I got 

this letter of reprimand.” 

She said, “It has nothing to do with it” She 

says, “A lot of other people have gone to see the Independent 

Counsel, too.” 

So I seen I was getting nowhere with her, I wasn’t 

going to argue with her and I says, “Okay. Thank you.” 

Q Has anything like that ever happened since? 

A No. 

Q Do you know whether that letter of reprimand is in 

your personnel fde? 

A I do not because I think it was just - you know, 

the way I explained is it’s not worth the paper it’s mittrn 

on,ifIwantedtotaktactiononiSsoitdoesn’twonyme 

about that. 

e Okay. And prior to your grand jury - or actually, 

prior to your second interview with the Office of the 

Independent counsel this past winter in ccnnecticm with the 

Monica L&n&y matter, did you have any discussions with 

White House Coun.& Office? 

A Yes. 

Q Andwhatwerethey? 

A It was with Ms. patrson and basically she told me i 

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that I’m entitled to take counsel, I could take one of the 

White House counsels and they’d come in here. but she 

explained they can’t come in the grand jury room. they have 

to wait outside and so on. Or I could be provided counsl 

for a list of counsel’s that they have that would be paid for 

by the government if I wanted tq have one. And I chose not 

to have it. And she says, “Well, you know, think it over.” 

She said, “I’ll be glad to come up and sit outside and 

represent you.” 

BY h4R. WFZNBERG: 

Q She said she’d be glad to? 

A Yes, she’d be glad to. 

Q She was offaing either scmeonc from the coun~l’s 

4 office or private, from a list they had? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q And she said the governmen t would pay? 

1 A Yes. I believe she said tht government would pa! 

8 because there’s other people who have had counsel. 

9 Q Did they - 

D I’m sorry, I interrupted you 

1 MS. WIRTH: No, I’m done. 

2 BY MR. WEXNBERG: 

3 Q lhz firs time when you declined tht offer before 

4 tht frrst oc interview, when you declined the offer, did 

s they--IthinkyoumcatitmeditwasSallyPaxtonaud 

Page 3( 

Shelly Peterson, did they seem perturbed, upset? 

A I can’t really recall. I don’t think they were 

really upset I think it was more probably shcclc because 

basically I answered, I said, “WeIl, I don’t think I need 

anything. Whatever they ask me, I’m going to tell the 

truth.” 

Q How about this time, about the same reaction? 

A That’s only speculation on my part, trying to feel 

people out. ihey didn’t really come cut and say anything, 

but I just - you know, I think the ccunmmtwasmadqwcll, 

it’s going to be the first - you know, scmebody going before 

without a counsel. I’m not sure to that, but - 

Q I take it you feel that the Rieter-Torkelson 

reprimaud or Rieter reprimand cc tc Tcrkelscn was connected 

to your talking to OIC the first time without counsel? 

A Again, I’m speculating. That’s what I felt. What 

pcrturbedmcthtmostis,liktIsaid,thewayitwas 

handled. I mean, you know. I’ve baa a sqervisor for over 

20 years. If I have a problem with a perscm, I’m going to 

counsel that person, I’m going to talk to them. I’m not 

goingtobesmdingtbingsthroughthegcneralmailwhere 

otbcrpecplecouldsceit Iwanttohavetbemface-to-face, 

bring the parties in. 

lbat’swhatp&urbedmethemostandIwantedtc 

sctwhatwasgoingonaudwhy. AndwMcI’mcnleave1gc 

_I d 

rage 33 - Page 36 

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Page 39 

jeopardized lives. I’m no fool, I’m not jeopardizing 

anybody’s life. That’s what it so stated. 

They was upset that I contradicted the gear, 

document, which I know other agencies and offices 

did embellish it for their operation and tell them what 

to do. 

In Re: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Pagcry Tuesday, May 26,199s 

mF3 7 

1 this thing and other people have seen it. 1 

2 Q And you had never received in your whole previous 2 

3 time at the White House any written reprimand? 3 

4 A No. As a matter of fact, I got -- you know, I’ve 4 

5 got numerous pticiential citations and et cetera from all 5 

6 administrations. 6 

7 MR. WISENESERG: I’m going So ask - if there are r IO 7 

8 more questions from the attorneys if the witness can step 8 

9 outside for a minute or two and then we’ll call you back in. 9 

0 MR. CRANE: If I can jump in, Mr. Wisenberg. II D 

1 BY MR. CRANE: 1 1 

2 Q Mr. Nagy, my name is Jim crane, I’m an attom? y. 1: 2 

3 I don’t think I’ve asked you any q&tioti in these 1: 3 

4 pmc&dings before. Has White House counael after any of 11 4

5 your inMews with OIC or after any of your grand jq y 1: 5 

6 apjnXlallcesiSkedyouquestionsabo~~wbatquestionsweor lr 6 

7 the agents have asked you? 1’ 7 

8 A No. AfterItcstifiedandwenttoseethe 11 B 

9 Independent Counsel, I have had no contact with them. l! 3 

0 I haven’t got a call from them, no one has questioned m e 21 3 

1 about anything. 2. 1 

2 Q And after this correspondence containing a 2: 2 

3 reprimand was circulated in your office, do you have any 2: 3 

4 idea, my question is, about how many people might have seer I 2d 4 

5 that? 2: 5 

Page 31 s Page 4~ 

1 A I know of one that seen it, but what I’m basicaIly I anythingtome,rtally,htwasjust-Ithinkhewas 

2 stating is the fact that it came through what they call in 2 dumbfounded that anybody was qticming him, that had the 

3 the government a holey-joe envelope, went through the mail 1 nerve to go up there and question him. I caught him by 

4 room and was delivered to my office. 1 t shock, I think. That’s my own personal opinion. Because I 

5 So, like I said, how it came about - anybody could 8 5 was pretty peHxrbcd. 

6 have probably seen that, opened it up. It wasn’t under I I t 5 MK WISENBERG: Okay. Were ’ going to ask you to 

7 sealedmvelopeorHl~itwasaeofthanoatsthatarr 7 stcpoutsideforjllstacoupleofminutcsandthcnwc~~ 

8 tied down. So I don’t laxnv who seen it but I do know one I t bcncarthcvcrycnd. 

9 person seen it. ! P THE~~INES% Okay. Thank you 

0 Q I didn’t quite understand even what was the natun c 11 1 MR. WISENBERG: Thank you 

1 of what you were alleged to have done improperly by the 11 I (Witness excused. Witness rccaUed.) 

2 supervisor. 1: I A& WJSENEGRGZ Let the record reflect the witness 

3 A I was alleged - they put out a document which I 1: I hasretntcredthegrandjuryroom. 

4 can’t go into details about it, emergency evacuation. I i: n 14 I Madam Foreperson, do we have a quorum? 

5 turn for the section, the switchboard section, with the l! i THEFOREPER!SON: Ycs,wc do. 

6 cooperation of the opuations manager, had to embellish a I( i MR WISENBERG: kc tbcre any unautholized paxms 

7 little bit to give specific instructions to my people in the : li 1 inthegrandjwyroom? 

8 switchboard what to do in an emergency situation, in an I 18 I THE F~RJZPERSO~+ No, there are not 

9 evacuation. 1S 1 MR WISENBERG: All right. Mr. Nagy, WC just have 

0 You just don’t haul - pardon the expression, you x b a few more questions. 

1 just don’t get up and kave cvuything. I mean, it’s a 21 THE I~OREPERSON: And you’re still under 01 

2 switchboard you’re nmnin& there’s douunents that you’ve gc It 21 , THEwnNESS l%ankyou 

3 to protect and so on. 23 

4 It was alleged that I contradicted the &tructions 24 

2s 

MR. CRANE: All right. I have nothing further. 

MR. WISENBERG: Well,1 do. 

MR. CIUNE: Okay. 

BYMR. WISENBERG: 

Q Was Mr. Rieter a col@uc of yours, someone you 

had worked with for years? 

A No. Mr. Rieter was put in the position as the 

Director of Office Admin&ation Prior to that, hc 

workedintbeoMe.OfGaofManagemcntandBudget,whcn 

Ms. Torkelson was over there, I believe. 

Q Okay. So he was Torkelson’s assistant 

A He said he was her deputy, but there was nothing 

officially out_ eve@hing out 0x1 him, even including 

the telephone directory he was the Director of Office 

Administration, nothing Elating to the White House. 

Q Didheindicatetoyouinanywaythat 

Ms.Torkelscmhadbrmthepersonbebindthe+mand? 

A No. He admitted to me that she was aware of it. 

Ofcourse,Isecnitwascconthexe. Hedidn’tad 

5 that were put out tht general instructions, and that I 

I MR WISENBERG:~ And you’re the same Mr. Nagy who’s 

I becninhMcallaf~isthatmrrtd? 

, IiiEw.ITNm? Yes,Iaul. 

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A JUROR: Mr. Nagy, on the two occasions, the 

two different mattas that you were interview& by the FBI 

on, did the FBI contact you or did you go voluntarily to 

the FBI? 

THE LUTNESSS: I believe they contacted me. The 

Independent Counsel’s office called me. 

A JUROR: Both times? 

THEWTNESS: Both times. Yes. 

A JUROR: Thank YOU.’ 

BY h4R_ WISENBERG: 

Q Oneofthegrandjurorswantedtoknowwhatyou 

think was behind the reprimand of you 

A I really don’t know what was behind it. I just 

thought, you know, it was just a coincidence, a wu% you 

know,after~wQltbeforctbeIndependentCounsltbatIget 

&because*-yoLlkn4w,IforgctaactlywhmItook 

tbcaction,butitscunedlikct&rcwasatin.xlapstofmon 

thallaw&k’stimcpeMovathisbefoMcygavemethc 

nprimand. I’m &inking samtwhereamontbortwotbatIpu1 

out tbat enbanamult of their procedures to tbc switcbbosd 

section. 

So, you *know, basically, it just struck my mind as 

I got this reprimand a week after that I went before and 

testified the Independent CounslS ’ Office. TIMS ’ the ftrst 

thing that stuck in my mind. 

Page 42 

.I mean, it might be coincidental. I might have 

been overboard on ti thing, but it was handled entirely 

wrong. Youknow,fmmapaxxl&atsbaxliorlxlawpmt ’

position that issued ,@t to M should have known better. I 

mean, be’s b in govcmxnm tfor over 30 years. You know, 

that’s what struck me, just tlx way it was handled. 

He, you mean - 

Mr. Rie?er. 

You said Rieter’s lxen in governmen t over 30 ywrs? 

Yes. He -retired recently. 

And I think&at’s why the question was framed in 

terms of what do you think baxuse we know you can’t know, 

they’i~ not going to come and say something like that to you. 

That’swhyIthinkthejurorjustsaidwhatdoyouthink. I 

take it your gut feeling about it - 

A My gut feeling is that, hey, be careful. 

A moR: Mr. Nagy, if I could clarify? 

THEwn?Gzss: Yes. 

A JUROR: Are you saying that in your mind you felt 

thatyctLlwcrcrqximandcdbaxuscyoucoopcratedwiththe 

Offxe of Independent Counsel or btcause you did not obtain 

counsel as you wexe advised to do? 

THEWITNESS: 1think1wasrcptiandedbccausc1 

had to go before the Independent Counsel. Again, I’m 

speculatin& now. That’s tht only thing that stuck in my 

Pagc4 

1 mindrightoffthcbatbccauscvcrythingwashandled~ 

2 cntireiy wrong, from the very beginning of that. 

3 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

4 Q And we understand it’s your speculation based 01 

5 your gut feeling. 

6 A Yes. 

i Q Do you think if you had taken an attorney 

8 recommended by them you would have been reprimandal? 

9 A I don’t know. I can’t answer that. You know, I 

o don’t think - possibly. 

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Q Can you tell us-who your contact are, if you bav 

any, at Sprint? 

A Sprint? I have none. I deal with - like I said, 

I deal presently with the COTR the contracting officer, 

which is Mrs. Cheryl Ha& Sht deals with the Sprint, 

et cetera. Sht has responsibility for the contract for the 

telephone switches. 

Q SIX would know who those people are? 

A Yes, she would, as we.11 as the AT&T people that 

deal with them. 

Q Do you even know any of the names of the Sprint 

people? 

A WlrxIdealtwayback-no. Ican’tremember 

their names. 

Q You might have - I know you’ve been asked ahout 

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this before, but I want to make sure I understand. m 

You -- to the best that you can tell us, this business abou 

wbctber or not POWS would show up, if tbc President called 

somebody within the White House, within the complex there, 

within the White House itself, and they’ve got tlxir 

little - that person would have their little readout, caller 

~totcllthcm~o’scallin&wouldtheyst-ifyoucan 

tell us, woul$ the number be blocked out, the number of the 

President, or Gould it be POTUS that’s blocked out or neitba 

or some combination of the tw?? 

A It would be - the POTUS would be blocked out an 

the number would be blockcd’out. There wouldn’t he any - I 

would lx probably like an asterisk or something that they 

would sec. 

Q Would there be something else that might tell tk 

person that it was the President? 

A No. No. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q Is it possible that the phone number would be 

blocked out but the word pm would appear? I think you 

testified the lsst time that the conum you heliicd would 

be Itvtaliog the Pxhient’s direct number. 

A I dont ’ know for a fact what it would be. I’m 

prettysuregoillgfhmhisphoat,ifhediakd~ytc 

anothuoffiiphetbcn:wouklnothcanynumkslmwhga 

Diversified Ibz~ortinn Services. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

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3052 

n Re: Grand Jury Proceedings Mul 

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the POTUS. 

WY4 

Q Excuse me, there would be what? 

A Not be any number nor the designation of the POTUS 

on it. Going to the White House switchboard I believe it 

does show the POTUS. 

Q But if he were calling within the White House, 

wouldnt ’ it make sense that be would want others in th: Whi 

House to know that he was calling? 

A No, not necessariIy. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q If our investigators have heard that - this is one 

of the reasons I’m asking this - that a particular person 

was having POTUS show up on the caller ID and mcntioued 

something to have it stopped when the Rtsidcnt eda! that 

person, does that - I take it basically what you told us, 

thatdocsn’tmakcanyscnsctoyoubCcauseaslongasthis 

. . 

adnummatiouhasbamthtrr,maybcevarloqer,PONSwill 

not show up on caller ID? 

A I’m trying to think. And, like I said, it’s been a 

long time since I got involved with the President’s phon 

precisely. 

It could be a possibility of showing up because 

there are some areas, I believe, he has certain people he has 

where it’s considered like a direct telephone line instead of 

5 going through the switchboard, might k.going to the Vice 

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President or the Chief of Staff or something Iike that I.l 

that is the case, there’s a good possibility that it would 

show up on that. 

Dialing the number to another office, no, I do not 

think it would be cm that. I’m just trying to - you know - 

Q Think of all possibilities. 

A Think of aII possibilities. It’s not saying it 

couldn’t be, okay? 

BY Ms. WIRTHz 

Q Do you know if it’s possible for just the 

word POTUS to appear but the number to be blocked on 

caller ID7 

A Oh, yes. That’s possible. Like I said, there’s 

different options. You could have both the number and 

the title POWS blocked, you could have just PONS show, 

you could just have the number show. It‘s a possibility. 

Q I’m just trying to think of any reason why be would 

even his identification blocked in terms of just the name 

9 POTUS. Do you know of any reason that’s ever been 

o articulated why that should be bloc&d? 

I A Well, I think I testified before and explained tht 

2 fact is the majority of the calls, if the President is going 

3 ~Eallastaffmember,themajorityofthancallsaregoing 

4 to go through the White House switebbctard and tbey’m going 

5 to announce that, for the reason is that if the line is buys 

-Pagem Tuesday, May 26,199s 

Page 4’ 

1 ortbeperson’snotthereorwhatever,Idon’tthinkthe 

2 President has the time, is going to take the time tc 

3 dialing them telephone mrmbers all day or whateve,. 

4 BY MR. WISNBERG: 

5 Q You’ve probably answzd this beforq I’m sorry to 

6 go over this again, but let me make sure I understand I: 

7 the President calls the switchboard - I know that if the 

8 Rcsidentc;illsth:swi~~~andsays”IwanttocallJoc 

9 Blow in Vienna, Viia,” tbce will be a record of that on 

10 tbc~tsthatyourptople~upatmidnightcvcrynight, 

11 tygeupatmidnighL 

12 A Thats ’ correct. 

13 Q bthatcoti? 

14 A Thats ’ conu& 

15 Q WouIdthatalsobetnxifthePrcsidentsays 

I6 “I want to talk to Joe Blow who’s in the White House”? 

17 Callstotheswitchboardaudrays”&unectxnewithsoaud 

I8 so in the White House”? 

19 A That’s correct Any p&dential caII that goes 

zo through that switchboard will be logged. 

11 Q Okay. And are those calls, would it be possible 

u tbatwbentbeswitchboardeallathatpersonforthePn&knt 

!3 that POTUS could flash up? 

!4 A No. Because- / 

!5 Q It’s the switchboard 

Page45 

1 A The switchboard is originating that caII. They’re 

2 going to announce it. 

3 MR. WJSBNBBRG: Okay. 

4 Do I hear any questions? 

5 (No response.) 

6 MR. WISENBERG: Going ona, going twia? 

7 (No response.) 

8 MR. LvLsENBBRG: You’re home free. Thank you very 

9 much. 

0 THE l+TINEss: Thank you for your time. 

1 MR. WISENEERG: We appreciate your time end your 

2 Paticnaandwe’nsorryyoubadto~hviceandtharrLsa 

3 lot. 

4 THE WITNESS: ‘l-hank you 

5 THB POREPERSON: fhimk ‘ you 

6 (The witness was excud.) 

7 (Whereupon,at3:18pm.,thetakingoftestimony 

8 inthepresenaofafuIIquorumoftheGrandJurywas 

19 condudecL) 

!o l **** 

Diversified Reuorting Scnriccs. Inc. (202) 296-2929 

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3053 

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Bayani Nelvis, l/27/98 

Grand Jury 

Page 1 to Page 74 

CONDENSED TRANSCRIPT AND CONCORDANCE 

PREPARED BY: 

OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 

Suite 490-North 

Washington, DC 20004 

Phone: 202-514-8688 

FAX: 202-514-8802 
3054 

BSA Bayani Nelvis, l/27/98 XM.u,1, 

Page 1 Page 5 

1:. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 

FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 

;31ln re: 

; ;GRAND ‘ JURY PROCEEDlNGS 

16’ 

IV. ________________ x 

:>: 

r;; 

Grand Jury Room No. 4 

Unrted States District Court 

1::: for the Drstnct of Columbia 

. . . . .*-, 3rd & Constitution NW. 

::2; Washtngton, D.C. 20001 

::3j Tuesday, Janua 27, 1998 

L?4’ 

! lsj the 

The testimony of BA r! ANI BRAZA NELVIS was taken in 

% 

resence of a full uorum of Grand Jury 97-2, impaneled 

[ 16 j on eptember 19 199 4 , commencing at I:48 p.m., before: 

[i7i BRUCE UDOLF 

[18i MARY ANNE WIRTH 

119! SOLOMON WISENBERG 

i201 STEPHEN BINHAK 

[211 Associate Independent Counsel 

(221 

t231 

Office of IndePendent Counsel 

1001 Pennsyvanra Avenue, Northwest 

1241 Suite 490 North 

!25! Washington, D.C. 20004 

Page 2 

[II 

tz]Whereupon, 

BAYANI BFiAZA NELVIS 

i:iwas called as a witness and after being first duly sworn by 

[ 5 1 the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and testrfied 

[ 6 ] aS fOttOwS: 

[71 EXAMINATION 

:a! BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q 

i:ilSol Wisenber 

Mr. Nelvis. Okay. Mr. Nelvis. m name is 

.?i 

and these are my colleagues. My 

rl7land Steve Bin ak. 

ary Anne Wlrth 

And this is a federal Grand Jury. These 

I:zlare federal grand jurors with us here, as well as a 

tzolcourt reporter. 

And were ’ conducting an investigation of possible 

tz:;violations of federal criminal laws invotvin 

rzs~pejury, obstruction ofjustice, and whats ’ 1 

possible 

flown as 

rz 4 1 subomatron of qury. 

t251 And P m gorng to read a portion of this to you: 

Page 4 

lhe Independent Counsel shall have jurisdiction 

i:iand authority to Investigate to the maximum extent authorized 

t3lb 

t41d 

the Independent Counsel Reauthorization Act of 1994 

ether Monica Lewinsk 

tslobstructed ustice ‘ intimr z! 

or others suborned perjury, 

ated witness or otherwise 

tslviolated fec/eral law other than a Class B or C misdemeanor 

t71or infraction in dealing with witnesses, potential 

fslwitnesses. attorneys or others concerning the 

[ 9 1 civil case Jones v. Clinton.” 

[lOI So those are the general subect ’ matters were ’

[ 111 investigatigg tdyE;: Do you unders 1 and? 

[I21 

0 Now, Im ’ going to read to you 

t::iresponsibilities as a Grand Jury witness. An dy 

our riqhts and 

[ 151 Ill’ sto 

occasronally 

and ask you to affirm whether or not you understand 

tl6lwhat l%e Tid. 

1171 

[I81 

1191 

g $$?t!ig ht? 

Q Firsi of all you have a privilege against 

j:iiself-incrimination, which means 

t23!question. if a truthful answer to t f; 

ou can refuse to answer any 

e question would tend to 

[ 23 ] tncnmrnate you. Do you understand that? 

t241 A Yes, sir. 

1251 Q And anything that you do say may be used against 

OlCStarr 

: I : you by the Grand Jury or in another legal proceeding. Do you 

r: I understand that7 

.3l A Yes, srr. 

idI MR. WISENBERG: And Im ’

cs,could try to speak u a little brt. because ? don t -- are 

;6;you all able to hear f he witness? 

olng to ask you if you 

[: 

I3; 

JURORS Uh-uh. 

BY MR. WISENBERG 

:?l Q Okay. If you could try to speak up a little. both 

[ I o 1 for the record and so the grand jurors can hear. 

(1:: I understand that you have retarned counsel; is 

f .~~, :z i that correct? 

iI31 A Yes, sir. 

;141 0 And that IS Mr. William Small of the law firm of 

[I 5 I Fulbright and Jaworski? 

1161 A No, Joe Small. 

(171 Q Joe Small? And a Mr. Steve McNab? 

1181 A McNab. 

A Yes. sir. 

Q The grand jurors and my&f and the court reporter 

~~__.___ 

Page 6 

[I I and my colleagues - we are bound by an oath of secrecy. 

rz]That means we cant ’ o out and blab to the world about 

r3lwhat you said here to % ay. 

A Yes, sir. 

Do you understand that? 

I41 

I51 Q There are certain exceptions to that that are 

!I21 A Understand. 

1131 Q 

t14ltest’ 

.n=& 

If there was to later be a trial, and you were to 

rlslsard 

at that trial and say something different than you 

ere today. that would be an exam ie of where we could 

[ 161 breach theAsecttei: Do you understan B that? 

t171 

Q 

I : z i of secrecy. 

But as a general matter, we are bound by that oath 

Do you understand? 

t201 -A Yes. 

I211 Q You are not bound by that oath of secre . You can 

tzzltell as many or as few people about 

r 

our Grand Jury tes 1! tmony 

t231as want yol to.y;z you understand hat? 

1241 

f251 0 You cannot be forced to talk about it without 

Page 7 

f11a court order, but if you want to, you can. 

rz~understand that? 

Do you 

i3i 

I41 

A Yes. 

MR. WISENBERG: Is the court reporter able to aick 

151 up the responses? 

(61 COURT REPORTER: Im ’ having trouble 

(71 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

181 Q Yeah. And were ’ going to have to ask 

[stthe court reporter cannot pick up a shake of the head 

rior”Uh-uh “so if you could try your best to be a little bit 

I 1 I 1 louder for us. 

_ 

hearing him. 

you, because 

or 

[12i A Yes, sir. 

1131 0 Thank you. Witnesses before the Grand Jury are 

~14 lsometime put into categories of witness and subject and 

t151target. Are you aware of that? 

[IhI - A- Yes, sir. 

(171 Q Okay. For instance, the de7iriiion cif atarget ‘ is 

[ 18 ja person, as to whom the prosecutor or the Grand Jury has 

ri9tsubstantral evidence linking him or her to the commission 

[zolof a *me and who, in the judgment of the prosecutor, is a 

121 lpossrble defendant. Do you understand? 

t221 A I understand, sir. 

1231 Q 

[24lthat? 

Okay. You are not a target. Do you understand: 

I251 A I understand. 

-. 

^ _.- - 

rage 1 to rage 7 
Page 8 Page 11 

6’ A I understand. 

i/ Q 

L31 A 

And you are not a subject Do you understand that? 

I understand. 

Q Then there IS a witness -- somebody that there are 

il! really not suspicions about that the Grand 

1 I1 iget informition about. Do 

Jury ust ‘ wants to 

ou understand d that. 

12: 

;:31 Q 

I understan! sir. 

Now, nobod can be promised that theyll ’ never be a 

i 14 ;target. DoAyou understand hat? 

Ii51 I understand. 

Q Even a person whos ’ a witness today can be a 

I:;itarget, if the Grand Ju 

[I S; Do you unprstand tha r 

learns something else about them. 

? 

l19! I understand. 

Q So its ’ possible that even a witness or a subject 

[I: i and can be a target some day. Do you understand that? 

j221 

_t 

I understand. 

Okay. Do you understand, then that you are a 

iiiiwitness wTin the witness-subject-target grouping? 

I understand. 

Page 9 

Q You understand that you have taken an oath and that 

/: 1 you have t; tell the truth? 

[31 I understand. 

Q All right. You know that if you were to not tell 

Izithe truth, to intentionally tell a lie about an important 

rslmatter before the Grand 

! 7 1 Do you understand that? 

Jury, that that could be perjury. 

181 A I understand. 

I91 Q And you understand what perjury is? 

[lOI A I understand. 

Q 

iii i that correct? 

Okay. You came here pursuant to subpoena today; is 

[13! A Yes, sir. 

Q And did you bring certain items with you pursuant 

[[i:to that subplaid. 

Q Okay. Do you have those there in front of you? 

Cl81 A Yes, sir. 

Page 10 

t~jGrand Jury witness? 

121 A Yes, sir. 

Q 

/:iasked you? 

Do you have any questions about anything Ive ’

[51 A None so far. 

MR. WISENBERG: Okay. With that Im ’ going to hand 

176jyou over to my colleague, Ms. Wkth, for questioning. 

[El 

191 

iB,“,ef interruptron to proceedings.) 

I101 BY MS. WIRTH: 

[I11 Q Mr. Nelvis, can you tell us how old you 

have held over the 30-year 

know, Into too much detarl. ?I 

eriod -- wtthout gettrng, you 

-assgnmenf have you had? 

ut generally, what kinds of 

I start 1980 rn the White House with 

President Jimmy Carter as a food servrce associate; a 

personal chef with President Reagan, President Bush, and 

now wrth President Clinton 

Q 

-since 1980? 

Okay So youve ’ been in the White House 

: 

A Yes. Yes, maam. ’

0 And you did other thongs, other duties, with the 

! I. Navy prior to that? 

:. A Yes, maam. ’

-:’ Q Okay. Now, in the Whrte House, do you hold a 

f j speufic title? Are you called something? 

:G] ‘ A We call it sometimes residentral server, someti 

: - 1 presidential food service. And my trt -P e rn the card IS 

: : 3 1 prestdential food service. 

::?I Q Okay. Are ou also known as a steward? 

“.- C;l A Yes, yes. Y es, ma-am. 

^. ‘ 1 Cl 

ii_ jWhite House. 

Oka 

Wha r 

Can you explain what you do in the 

A 

does a steward do? Whats ’ your job? 

:231 

:I 4 1 White House. 

The steward do - we have so many stewards in 

::51 0 Well. what do you do? 

Page 12 

mes 

:he 

I?, A My duty is like a personal aide to the President at 

:: 1 this moment - at the present. 

Q Okay. And how long have you been a personal arde 

: : i to the President? 

:51 A 

!61 Q 

:i1 A I started July of 199 

:Bl Q Okay. And you have been his personal aide from 

: 9 I then until the present? 

:131 A 

;:I] 

::2, 

:I51 z 

: 14 1 that servi?? 

;151 

[I61 !, 

I171 

iI91 ^a 

1191 A 

izoj (1 

Were ’ hbcoofus 

Pardon me? 

Two of us - me and my other uy. 

Theres ’ another person who a P so performs 

Yes, yes. 

And what does that person - 

We are in the same category. 

Okay. What is that persons ’ name? 

Glen Maes. 

Is that spelled M-a-y-s? 

., _ _ _ I211 A In-a-Jz-5. 

Q 

:::;a personal aide to the President. 

M-a-e-s? Okay. And can you tell us what you do as 

A Im ’ responsible for - m colleague is 

f::jresponsible also, the same level-we x , the President 

Page 13 

III arrive in the White House on the schedule of 8 oclock ’

tzjor 9 oclock. ’ We should be there if he woukl like to 

rslask breakfast. Responsible for lunch, responsibili 

x 

for 

~4 jmeetin ats ’ all 

15 1 about P 

s inside Oval Office, cabinet rooms. And t 

. Just exactly for the food service. 

i61 Q 

tlin ’ the livin 

Okay., So you have no dealings with the President 

[El w 

quaitrsmsatst correct? 

Q 

j:iithe White House 

Okay. So can you tell us general1 what area of 

(1 I 1 tell us how its lar 4 

ou do work In. If you could jus (you know, 

j;zldeal with. 

out and generally the rooms tha you 

A Yes. I have - in the Oval Office besides the 

i ::!Oval Office across the Roosevelt Room - I dont ’ know if 

i 151 YOU came f;om - been to the White House - I have a small 

[ 161 

f: 

antry; a small antry which only a couple guys can fit. I 

[ 17 Iave a small re P- ngerator, a microwave, ano a coffee maker, 

r~s land the shelves for cups and cereals rn support for the 

ji~~)President. 

!201 0 

; 2 1 Isometimes? 

Okay. So you actually make the President breakfast 

[221 A We have a staff dinin fadl’ downstairs. They 

: I 3 1 call it the White House staff mess, w ?i I&I ml 7 rtary people 

~24 I handle it, too. We - I have to order food downstairs. 

!rsjMy responsibility is to serve -to heat it up in the 

-. 

Page 8 to~Page 13 OIC-Starr 
BSA 

Page 14 

I’ micro~ ‘ a‘ie ’ or somethrng like .?a! ‘

.^ 

: 3‘ 

Q I see 

A But I make cc”ee. and I have to order, so and so. 

r , 

:: 

Q So you serve tse President? 

:;, 

A I serve the President 

Q Okay. What -eals to 

i -. Presde+ Breakfast, you sa d - an d’ 

ou generally cover with the 

what else? 

:-_’ A Breakfast, IVCI and all the meetin 

; i of sta:e anv comina - lake Ne:anvahu came. and I 

s. from head 

% e 

, ii respors ble for se&ing them beverage 

,:I’ Anv meetinas that !ne President want me to serve, I .~~ 

~:::wili do:?at. . - 

113. 

Llli 

2 All right., And Mr. Maes also does the same work? 

0 

Yes, ma am.. we are both together. 

And 

I:zimorning. iithat righ Y 

ou sard you start about 8 oclock ’ in the 

? 

(171 I come in around 8:00 - between 7:30, sometimes 

rls;7:00, depend on the traffic, I came from my house going 

[lg;to that 

[201 Q 

I::lSometirne 

A 

Okay. And generally. how late do you work? 

We kind of spiti between Glen Maes and myself. 

I come in in the morning at 7:O0. and if we are 

tzs!not busy, I leave around 3 odock ’ or 4 oclock. ’ And then 

t2clGlen Maes will come in around lo:30 until the President 

[ 2 5 1 departs. 

Page 15 

Sometimes I come in bte he come in earl 

ii Ivice versa. It depends on how we talk. We just 3, 

so 

eal 

i3jour time 

Q So sometimes you do the later shift, and sometimes 

t:iyou do the eariier shift. 

I61 A Yes, maam. ’

t71 0 

A 

What days of the week do you work? 

From Monday to Saturday - if Saturday, the 

i:jPresident have schedule. 

110; Q Monday through Saturday? 

!I11 A Yes, maam. ’

112: Q 

A 

Okay. So youre ’ off on Sundays? 

We kind of turn. Like sometimes Ill ’ do the 

I::jSaturday, Glen Maes will do the -the other weekend. We 

tlslkind of-we kind of - 

Q 

/:76/sometimes. Gten WIII come in at IO:30 or so. or sometimes 

Okay. And the later shift-you said that 

i1sjyou will. 

1191 A Yes, maam. ’

I201 0 

c2lileaves. 

And then you will work later until the President 

(221 A Yes, maam. ’

Q Generally, what time does that later shift go 

IZiuntil, if you can say? 

(251 A On the latest shift? 

Page 16 Page 19 

Ill 0 Mm-hmm. 

st 7:O0. If he depart’ 

A Yes maam ’ tt is. Sometimes its ’ 8 oclock. ’ It 

f8sideoends on the meetinas. Thev ‘ will have meetinas there. and 

tijiwe have to serve the mketin ’ And we will not le&e until 

t~~;all the meetings have been R- nrshed. 

j 

Q 

I::;- you and Glen? Like on a Satur ay, would it just be one 

Are there some da{s when only one of you is working / 

[14lofyOU? 

(151 A Yes, maam. ’

! 

::76;do you 

0 Okay. Now, when youre ’ not serving the President, 

[ 18 1 about? 9 

enerally remain in that pant 

s 7 that where your station is 

area that you told us 

Cl91 A 

Q 

If you are not - could you repeat the question? 

Sure. If youre ’ not you know serving the 

I:yjPresident coffee, lunch breakfast’ whateverwhere ’ do you 

tzzlnormally stay? Where is your work station?Where ‘ do you 

t23)wait for your calls? 

A Downstairs in the White House staff mess. They 

I:~jcall it White House staff mess down in the basement. We 

~ 

Page 17 

:: 1 have a -- like a restaurant over there. We have an office 

[:;over there 

!3’ 

A” 

Okay And the Oval Office is on what floor? 

!a! ! i.second floor. 

The next floor. Excuse me. They call it the 

ij’’ Q 

7‘ ‘ A 

Okay Is that the ground floor? 

I thmk its ’ the ground floor, because the baserent 

i?jis the pantry, and then the ground. No, maam, ’ its ’ the 

; 2 1 first floor 

I::! ‘ 0 First floor7 

!I!1 A Frrst floor. 

i::! 

;131 

Q And thats ’ the 

A And we are In t 9, e sround floor. Its ’ the kitchen 

round floor, right? 

I141 Q Okay. 

A 

;:;;go up to 1. 

Because if I ride in the elevator, I push 1. So see 

1111 Q Okay. So IS the Oval Oftice level with the lawn. 

rislorisitoneflooruo. 

ii9i A 

Q 

One floor up. 

i:!iactively - 

Okay So you stay downstairs when youre ’ nc! 

!221 A Sor~etirnes 1 just tick around And they have a 

t23lchair.there. I stick around sometimes. I have a small chair 

~21 ]in the pantry. I sit down and read newspaper. 

[251 And I know - it depend on the schedule. I 

Page 18 

t : 1 have to wart if the President will buzz me because theres ’ a 

t2lmeeting going on,. and I cannot leave. But if hes ’ not doing 

I:l??ttj?F&esident. 

I could just hang around. Because I have a pager 

Q Okay. And when youre ’ in the pantry, is the dcor 

~~~generally shut or open’ 

t71 A Its ’ shut. 

Q 

i89iOval Office? 

Okay. Where is the pantry in relation to the 

[IO1 A The - 

~r:~Office? 

Q 

Wh 

Where is the pantry in relation to the Oval 

dont ’ ou .ust tell us what kinds of rooms 

~12]are around t 6 e Ova rrt 0 tee and where your pantry is. 

I141 A 

t15; 

P 

Okay.. The Oval Office, mty pantr, across the 

antry is the oval dmmg, and In between he ova drnrng and 

t1s1 he oval suite is the oval study (indicating). 

I171 Q Okay. 

A Solmonthesideof-ifiopenthedoor-I 

I:iihave a double door 

t2olto the oval dinin 

- my door to the pantry and my door to go 

B 

. So I couid leave my oval pantry-the 

t21lpantr-y and the oar to the oval dinin 

il 

IS dosed. 

Q If you were to leave t e pantry to go into the 

I::ldining room how many doors to the dining room are there? 

[241 A’ If I leave - 

t251 Q If youre ’ going out of the pantry - 

A? 

Ill 

Aa Mmmhmr? - and you re oing to go into the dinin 

t:lis there more than one door P o the dining room 9 

room - 

orjus one? 

I:\tiont door. 

A Just only - oh. two doors: the pantry and the 

And theres ’ another door goin 

rsldining. So its ’ - actually, they have two B oars. 

to the oval 

(71 0 So ou go through the pantry door - 

[El 

I91 

t “h-Kuh. 

- and then you go through the dining room door. 

[lOI A Yes, maam. ’

[I11 Q 

A 

Is there only one dining room door? 

Cl21 Two. Two. They have another one in the side. 

Cl31 Q Oka And the study that you mentioned - 

1141 A (No&ing.) 

[ISI 

2 

- how many entrances are there to this study?. 

You have to entrance to the Oval Office first, or 

::,6jto the secretarys ’ offfce to go to the-dining -or either to 

tls)my pantry, or either to the other door besides my pantry to 

tlslgo to the “;;“I srrrdv 

t201 

1211 A 

-r?%d you enter the study through the hallway? 

No, maam. ’

Q 

i:$lthe study? 

You have to go through the Oval Office to get to 

[241 A 

[251 Q 

Yes, maam. ’

And how do you enter the Oval Office? How many 

_- 

blC-Starr _ Page 14 to Page 79 
3057 

BSA Bayani Nelvis, 

Page 20 

: entrancesire there to the Oval Office from the hallway? 

If he call me, I -that :hey need me Inside the 

i Oval Office, then I have to go to the oval dinin 

: through the passageway, pass by the oval stu % 

and then go 

y. and theres ’

; another door gorng to the Oval Office 

Q Oka 

: 1 walk from the Oval 6 

And if you were rn the Oval Office. can you 

ffice into the study? 

A Yes, maam ’

Q Okay. Now, you told us that ou have held thus 

.- posrtion for President Clinton since 1993; is hat right?? .:: 

Y 

__ A Yes, maam. ’

.._. 

t i: : President. 

Q Can you tell the Grand Jury how well you know the 

:14. A What kind of-well, you know, I mean. talking 

:::-about - 

I:c’ Cl Well, do you speak to him? 

!I-’ A No. We - being working with the President is like 

! : 3 j when - even from the President before - I .ust do stndly 

! :?:personal business with the President as a c ood service. 

i2;: He come in in the morning. and he - I WIII not 

;I: : come into the Oval Dffice unless he call me. And if he call 

!:I :me, if he want tea or coffee, I give him tea, and he will 

1: j :say. “Thank you,” and I will say, “Youre ’ welcqrne~~ I will 

{z< :say, “Good mornrng,” he will say, “Good momtng. 

t.5 Thats ’ the dally routine ever since. And I 

Page 21 

: 1 ;experience this from Jimmy Carter,, Reagan, a.nd thats ’ the way 

j? ;we do it. Being in the military, its ’ just professronal job 

: 3 : when its ’ in the Oval Office. 

Q Okay. Do you ever have a personal conversation 

iz i with the President? 

Is; A Not in an President at all. 

17‘ Q 0 z 

i B i moment - 

Okav. av. . _ Gettina back to your schedule for a 

:;’ 

,.^ 

“0 y”“. can mavou am. ’ tell the Grand Jurv. when voure ’

if f i working the later shift- ’ okay, when is the latest yoi 

[ : 2 1 have ever worked? 

[Is; A The, latest that I ever worked is on 

i ;: 1:;~4 a budget cnsrs during the Clinton time. I be Iy .p 

when they 

reve rt s 

,__j - 95. ‘ . And we all come rn there untrl 10 o dock. 

116 isomething like that- 

,177 

ifsithat late? 

Q And would that be fairlv unusual. then. to work 

,191 A 

izojis there. 

No. no. because everybody _ - work there. Everybody 

[211 Q Okay. At that time everyone worked very late. 

f221 A 

r2a)work late. 

At that time, yes. Thats ’ the onty time that I 

Q Okay. And can you tell us, roughly, in the years 

t::ithat youve ’ been working for President Clinton as a steward, 

Page 22 

r I I how often have vou worked after 8 ocfock ’ at nbht - if YOU 

injcan tell us? * 

131 A Oh, okay. 

Q And whatever is easier for you - how many times a 

I : i month, how man 

A 

times a year - 

!6j 

Q 

dybe three times a year, somethin like that. 

:71 Okay. And have you ever worked a a er 10 p.m.? 

:81 A No, maam. ’

:91 Q Okay. Do you know - 

[:o] A I would say our question about getting late after 

J : 1; 8 oclock, ’ thats ’ during the r, 

[I?! 

[Is! 2 

udget time. 

PgZiemember after 10 p.m. 

i:41 Q Okay. Do you know Monica Lewinsky? 

c:51 A Yes, maam. ’

Q 

/i:!she was when 

And can you tell the Grand Jury who she is, or who 

ou knew her. 

A Y;Vhen I first met her she was an intern in chief of 

Iiiistaff office - at that time Mr. LeonPanetta. ’ Young lady, 

rzcfand I think her job is justlike ’ assi f “9 by to the hallway 

[ 2 i ; and passing by my pantry to he ova door, going to the 

i: z! office of the Presidents ’ secretary and delrvering.. Irke. 

! 2 3 1 paperworks or any kind of message between chtef of staff. 

:.i! And she ahva 

,:jlhello, and she like total X r 

s stop b with me there and say 

a lot, ta k a lot. And being - 

Page20 to Page 25 

1127198 

Page 23 

XMAZ 1 

: : ! shes ’ a yc_-g lady -- I have a IO1 Of MBM candles wrth 

,J ;Clintons. ’ TV know. and she llke those. Anv time. she lake 

[ 3 j-- she Irkezandres ’

, 

A-d she like me. I dont ’ know why she like me. 

j:jAnd I said c?e -- I was surprised. I was 48 years old at 

: h j that time. ind she was very fnendly, you know. She -- 

r 3 1 thats ’ the hay we -- we know each other. 

,8! C Okay Now you said that she would deliver 

9 1 things from :be chief of staff. TO where would she deliver 

:is;these thin?’ 

To Nancy Hernreichs ’ office - the secretary of 1-5 

i : G; President. Thats ’ whats ’ beside the Oval Office. It3 not 

r;~ilrnsrde the &al Office, but thats ’ besides --the side. 

r141 C 

A 

How many secretanes does the President have7 

1151 They have three over - three - three secretary 

! 16 Iover there 

i17j 0 And who are they? 

A At that time, Betty Currie, Nancy Hernreich ant i 

F:iithink itss ’ Andrew Friendly or Stephen Gudin (phonetic) at’ 

rzolthat time, because they switch. 

1211 Q Okay. And - 

I think its ’ Stephen Gudin around then. 

Do those three people have desks? 

Yes, maam, ’ the have desks. 

And where are t x ose desks located in relation to 

i22j 

(231 1 “0 

I241 A 

c251 II 

Page 24 

rllthe Oval 05ce? 

121 A Its ’ a square office, and theres ’ a door going intc 

[ 3 1 the Oval 05ce. 

(41 Q Are those three desks outside of the Oval Oft%+ 

(51 A Yes, ma-am. 

[61 Q 

[ 7 1 talk to you 

All $ht. And you said that Ms. Lewinsky would 

at times. 

[89ilike - 

A Yes. She love -just like to talk. She just 

Q You mentioned the M&MS. Can you explain to t:e 

i:y;Grand Jury what youre ’ talking about. 

A Theres ’ a presidential seal - with the seal of the 

I::iPresident. with Bill Clinton. Its ’ an M&M with different - 

Cl41 0 

A 

Is it on the bag of M&MS? 

I:zipeanuts or 

Its ’ in a box like 

lain M&M. 

- its ’ a regular candy M&M with 

[171 8 Okay. And she liked that? 

1181 A Oh, she likes that, yeah. 

[I91 Q And you would gtve those to her sometimes? 

[201 A Yeah, and ust ‘ - yeah. 

ii:lthats ’ - 

0 Okay. An d thats ’ like, I guess, a kind of item 

I231 A Thats ’ a free item. 

t241 Q A free item in the pantry. 

[251 A Its ’ a free item. Its ’ free. 

E 

Page 25 

[II CI Oka . 

rzlwork in the White Hy 

Do you remember roughly when she came to 

ouse? 

A The only thin 

I:jthey had a bud et crisps at t 

I remember is around November, when 

t? at trme. 

[51 Q 

A 

so ‘ that would be November of 95. ‘ you think? 

[61 

Q 

Yeah, I believe. maam, ’ yes. 

Okay. Getting back for a moment to the delivery of 

1 ii messages that you mentioned a moment ago - that she would 

[gldeliver whatever - packages, messages, and so on - from the 

t~olchief of staffs office. 

1111 A Mm-hmm. 

Q Would she atways deliver those to Ms. Hemreich, or 

1 ii] to other persons as well? 

t:l;Irn ’ not 

A Theres ’ three persons there maam. ’ I really - 

-@at office not visible to me but I know that she 

[16]C&TIe in there. I dont ’ know who - I believe that message 

t17)should be for either the three of them, or whatever-to 

[ 18 1 Nancy. Nancy is the number one secretary. 

[I91 Q Okay. 

t201 A So I couldnt ’ - I didnt ’ see her - 

her delivering anything to 

sometimes, really, I dont ’

OlCStarr 
3058 

BSA Bayani Nelvis, 1127198 

Page 26 Page 29 

:: ‘ A I really never focus too much of what she carry I 

! :! know Its ’ papers, you know, somethrng like that 

i 3: Q 

: 4 j Betty Curne? 

Drd you ever see her grve anythrng to 

i ; ; A No I mean, .ust like I say, I dont ’ know. She 

[ .,; come rn there with papers. 6 

: 1 or ‘ Stephen Gudin. 

he got to go to Betty or Nancy 

3: ‘ Q Okay And can ou tell us where Mr. Panettas ’

,?: office IS in relation to the Oval (3 ffice It IS on the 

r : i same ‘ floor? 

Oh, she was very pleased about what Im ’ doing. 

t::iSay, ;Oh, you work in the President of United States. 

124 1 lmagme that. How did ou get picked up?” You know, 

tzsjthings like that when I Y rrst knew her. 

YOU 

i you 

Page 27 

Its ’ just -you know, its ’ just -just say, 

I:i”Oh this is nothrng for me. This is - this is my fourth 

rslPre&dent. I dont ’ care about it. I just work. Im in 

[ 4 1 military. This is my assignment.” Thats ’ all. 

Q Okay. Do you remember an other conversations you 

12; had with her while she was working in the V&e House? 

171 A Conversation with Lewinsky? 

[RI Q Mm-hmm. 

A Sometimes my family. her famil 

,:iiof course I asked “How is your father and mo Y her?” 

She;;: me - 

111 theyre ’ separated.’ My mother is a writer. My father is ’ 

1711 ‘ AL * _ l-tnctnr -__.-. ” 

131 ‘ And you know, were ’ - sometimes - “Oh, you do the 

14 1 intern. Where did you finish your college? What did you 

:lsjfinish?” “I finish biolo 

j16jbecause its ’ a lot of rn -9

y,” or somethin 

ems there, and 9 

I - I - 

.17jwe just talk about, you know. 

hats the way 

Q Now, durin the time that Ms. Lewinsky was workir 

::iiin the White House. was s a e 

solanother job at some point? 

always an intern, or did she have 

A Then after - I dont ’ know what month - she 

$&topped by and she say, “You know, Im ’ qing to get a 

z31iob - a 

p” 

rmanent job rn the White House. I sa , 

24 ‘ 1 Good or you.” “Because,” she say, “Im ’ not ge l! In %x$d 

zsjfor this intern.” I Say, Well, ‘ youre ’ going to get a jo 

9 ‘

Page 28 

rllbhe~y. “Yes, Im ’ getting a ob ‘ from - ” I think its ’

tstrn le IS atrve affair. on the ot c, er side. I said, “Good,” 

[31you now.” 

I:llrn ’ getting broke. I dont ’ have money, things tke that, so 

And she said, “Finally, Im ’ getting mone 

7 

because 

[ 61- and then one thing I know, she was there. 

6 And when you say “legislative affairs” -was that 

Il;also within the White House? 

I91 A 

Q 

Yes, maam. ’ Its ’ in the East Wrng side. 

t101 Now, do you remember roughly when her job changed 

I i I I from intern to lesislative affairs? 

12i A 

Q 

l?annot give you a specific month. 

When her ob ‘ than 

::!she continue to come an d ;t 

ed to legislative affairs, did 

A 

chat wit you? 

151 Yes. Not so much thus time. I think the reason 

16 1 why I could see her a lot because she allowed to have - we 

17 1 have a carryout in the 

And she go P he cavout. And when I hang around 

antry downstairs, in the mess. 

:ilthere. and then we chat that Oh youre ’ etting some 

zolbreakfast?” “Yeah, Im ’ getting some brea 9, fast. She carry 

x]out a lot, so we kind of see almost every day, people, ou 

22 1 know. So maybe three, two days a week, you know. i ut I 

tzslalways see her around. 

Q So are you saying that a few times a week, she 

Ii:lwould come and chat with you, even after she was working with 

: legrslative;ffarrs7 

She dont ’ come around now that - to come to the 

r kitchen and chat with me But It hapcens that I always 

I erther see her rn the west lobby or see her down rn the 

i. mess where I -- I always see her In the mess eating 

- somethrng. 

Q After she went to wo,x in le islative affarrs drd 

i you ‘ ever s. her rn the area of the Oval 0 w ice? 

One hme. One trme I think she want to borrow a 

.-- asking me a candle I dont ’ know. for a - she said 

: : : somebody have a birthday She .ust want to have a candle. 

._. It ha 

ij i passageway. P 

pen I have a can d le. So we talk in the 

gave her the candle And thats ’ -thats ’

A‘ he 0n.y thing that I remember, because once you left the 

1 s : place rn there, you cannot - youre ’ not supposed to hang 

:: e: around there. 

:z<: A I dont ’ know whose birthday is that. 

--, Q Oh, okay. 

Page 30 

:s; A Yes. 

:&I Q And can you tell us where they were when you 

: 3: Intern. wh& the President went out 

::3; believe its ’ around 6 oclock. ’

He went out there and shook hands to the people 

i i:land I know he shook hand with Monica with the presence of 

::s]four or five people in the chief of staff. And I could - 

: 16 ]I could see rt there from the passageway. 

::i1 And that second occasion is after he was - she was 

: 18 1 assigned in the Penta on, she went to - I see her in the 

; : 91 Roosevelt Room, whr 3 

:zo jsister and stepmother. 

across my pantry, with her father and 

That - I think she attend - she 

i z I 1 attend a radio address for the President. 

!221 And the third one is the same 

tzsladdress with Mr. Bacon, the - her boss 

124 1 the farnil of Bacon. She introduced me 

rzslafter - a r; er - after all the put off, everybody, with 60 

Page 31 

opte 50 or 60 people - they all go inside the Oval 

ce and had a rdures takin 

;!/Eodi, Q d en you say 9 ‘ hey’ went inside the oval - 

is1 A ! cthe ’ thino 

Everyone in that radio address - the people at 

,_i . .._ . 1. 

ii;Penta 

Q Okay. You mentioned when Monica was at the 

; 9lWhite 

on. Did there come a time when she left the 

9( ouse? 

rioj A Say again? 

::11 Q You mentioned a moment a o that Monica was at the 

: : z 1 Pentagon at some point. Did she leave the white House at 

: :31 some point? She no longer worked there? 

!>41 A She was not longer worked there when it happened, 

: I 5 1 the radio address, when she - 

“5; 

;:,I 

Q And she went to work at the Pentagon? 

A Yes. 

I191 Q After she worked at the White House? 

!I91 A 

1:31 Q 

After she left the White House, yeah. 

Do you remember, roughly. when she let? the 

::I IWhite Hou~ to 

I 

Iz:lMay 1996, so - 

?h. 

o to the,Pentagon? 

Ink - I just read In newspaper its ’

AQ Do you know of your own. personal knowtedge? 

I be ieve in that trme. I thank rt s kind of - d 

-. 

OIC-Starr Page 26 to Page 31 
3059 

q SA Bayani Nelvis, l/27/98 XMAXC ’

Page 32 

! : i was almost summertcme. yes. 

I, ’ Q Okay. Now. you mentioned there were three times 

,x1 that you saw Monica with the Presrdent. On any of those 

iJ ;occasions. did you ever overhear any discussions between 

; 7; her and the Presrdent? 

A No, maam. ’ Because once - once they go inside, I 

!3] never go inside with the family 

91 ‘ Q And other than those three occasions, did you ever 

: 2; see Monica with the President? 

I?31 A No. 

(I:] 

,:21 

AQ fD~d you ever see her alone with the President? 

!I31 Q 

tl4lOval Office? 

Did you ever see Ms. Lewinsky enter the 

(151 A No. 

[I61 

[iTI 

AQ i;d you ever see her leave the Oval Oftice? 

(181 Q Did you ever see her enter the study? 

1191 A No, maam. ’

[20! Q Did you ever see her leave the study? 

(211 A No, maam. ’

t221 0 

I231 A 

$d Eauae;er see her enter the dining room? 

7 Q 

Is:ldining room? 

Did you ever see her leave the Presidents ’

Page 33 

1;; 

A No, maam. ’

Q Do you have any knowled e - an personal knowledge 

[sj- as to whether Ms. Lewinsky was ever a 9 one wrt 4 the 

[ 4 1 President? 

i51 A No, maam. ’

(61 Q 

[ 7 1 alone with 

Have you ever heard from anyone else that she was 

the President? 

(81 

191 

A No, maam. ’ Its ’ all right if I step out and - 

Q Would YOU like to step out and - .~. 

[lOI A Yes. . 

[Ill MS. WIRTH: Thats ’ fine. Sure. 

MR. WISENBERG: Absolute1 

[::jthe witness is being allowed to leave spea 

Let the record reflect 

z with his counsel. 

[III 

.._. 

f,W$ness excused to consult with counsel.) 

IL>! 

,161 FOREPERSON: Mr. Nelvis. Id ’ like to remind YOU 

i ij j that youre ’ still under oath. 

t1s1 THE WITNESS: Yes, maam. ’

t191 BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q Okay. Mr. Nelvie, now youve ’ had an opportunity 

~:~jconsuit your counsel have you? 

(221 A Yes, maam. ’

Q Is there an hmg that youd ’ like to add to 

iE:ianything that youve ’ said. 

(251 A For what?’ 

Page 34 

Q Is there anythin youd ’ like to add to anything 

i:;that youve ’ previously testrfred ? o here today? 

(31 A Nothing. No, no. 

Q Okay. Im ’ oing to return to one of my prior 

IZiquestions for a moment aid you ever see Monica Lewinsky 

,IZ I leave the Oval Office by herself? 

I71 A No maam. ’

Q 

iti leave bv herself? 

The dining roan- by herself - did you ever see her 

.-, 

(101 ’ A No, ma-am. 

I111 Q Did you ever see her leave the study by herself? 

[I21 A No, maam. ’

t131 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

0 And for those three rooms, did you ever see her 

I::lenter bv herself, on either of those? 

i16i _ A No, maam ’ - no, sir, I mean. 

[171 0 

A 

Thats ’ quite all right. 

LIEI I have too much maam’ ” in there, so - 

[I91 BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q All ri ht. Did you have any relationship with 

I:y;Ms. Lewinsk outsr e the White House? Did you ever meet her 

1711 outside the &hite l&se? .--I 

1231 A Yes. 

Q Can you tell us, first, whether that was during the 

I::jtirne that she worked in the White House, or after? 

Page 32 to Page 37 

Page 35 

A After she work In the White House. 

Q And was that when she worked at the Pentagor: 

A Yes maam. ’

14’ Q Oka 

I 5 outside ‘ the Whrte Hy 

And about how many t!mes drd you mee! -er 

ouse after she left? 

j 6 : A 

Q 

I would say four times. 

I:’ 

!a; 

And where would ou meet? 

A She asked for M8 t She call M&M - see If I 

;olcould drop her off M&M So first I say, Were ‘ you work?” 

:13 1 “Pentagon.” “I could drop it off there. ’ Sard okay 

:I:! Then I meet her to the warting - nght outside the 

::zjentrance of the Pentagon and handed up the M&M, which I put 

: i 31 In package. 

:141 Q 

A 

Drd she ever tell you what she wanted them for? 

Il5, She said she want to give it awa to coworkers. 

[16, Q Did you ever give her anything e r se? 

!171 A Yes, maam. ’

[ISI Q 

Cl91 A 

What else did you give her? 

Well. it happened when she was - 1995. I was 

~201s~ rised she rve me a tie, you know. She was telling me 

rztltha p ‘ she used P o work in a he store back in California. 

rzz)Shes ’ good in tie. And I was surprised Christmas. she 

r23;went to get me a he. It was 1995. 

t241 Q 

CzslWhite House? 

Is this when she was still working in the 

Page 36 

A 

I:loffice we have like a benefit fund we create a rons with 

Yes, uh-huh. And then I went by - in our 

rs)presidential - so I bought - its ’ $10, so I boug VI. t It and 

14 1 

[ 5 1 % 

ive it to her-, and say,, Here is, a souvenir from our 

epartment. as a Chnstmas gift. 

[61 So its ’ starting, like, to exchan 

171 know, I mean, she gave me something, w 

e gifts. You 

18 1 her sornethin 

en I feel like giving 

[91 An % on and off from - from - the 1995. my 

tlolbirthda - I didnt ’ tell her its my-birthday But 1996. 

r11lmy br ItK day. she asked - she keep on askina me alreadv 

t12@ren - during when she was working there -when is my 

[lslbtrthday. I satd January 17. And I was surpnsed she gave 

I I 4 I me another tie. 

i15i. Then I was committed to get another 

t161rt to her, you know. And then Christmas come ? 

ift and give 

[17)“lll ’ rve you a.pres.ent a 

996, she say, 

? 

ain for Christmas.” Then I say, 

jlsjwel , I got to grve presen ? agarn. So keep on just exchange 

tlsjlike that. 

to / I201 Q What present was that then? 

(211 

[221 

[a31 

1241 

1251 

A AbeQ 

A 

How many ties have you received from he0 

I have four ties. I have it with me. 

Q And you brought them with you? 

A Yes. 

3 

Page 37 

Q 

i:iyou is whether 

I believe actually the question that I had asked 

ou gave her anyihing other than the M&t&.. 

(3, A {es 

L-I 

141 6 And you mentioned the apron. 

151 A Yes. 

(61 Q 

A 

What other things did you ive her? 

You know she remind me 9, ere brrthday. 1996. she 

:l;remind me her birthday. But ‘ I was in L.A. I didnt ’ qive 

i 14 j know what brand. 

And I say, “Hey can I -where can I see 

I::ihave a Christmas presentfor ’ you.” Say “Oka 

ou? 

ie.4 

I 

[ 17 ] treat you for a snack something. * Vii fine-4ter work.. 

y dont ’ I 

So we went to Washington D.C: in downtown - 

i:iiM Street, I believe with a bar and grill thin 

t2ojltalian food. So I give her the birthday, an % 

s with 

we eat kind of 

tzljpasta. I order a 

tzsjordered. So an CP 

asta, and I dont ’ know what-what she 

[zs]treat me. but I 

then after that, I say - she pick - she 

0 ?Vhich was the Iorion? 

ive her a birthda - a birthday gift. 

i241 

I251 A Yeah. Then I left. We just separate and left. 

-- 

OlCStan 
BSA 

Page 38 

3060 

Bayani Nelvis, 1127198 

! 1 she asked me. 

Page 41 

xh%%xrr, 

!I1 0 Okay. Did you ever grve her any glasses -- 

.z !drinkmg glasses? 

:3i A 

Cl 

Yes, yes. I grve her drinking glasses, yeah. 

;41 

A 

And can you descnbe those. 

Those are glasses with the seal of the President -- 

i: 1 those Presrdent. 

.71 Q And drd she ask to you for those, or did you just 

; s !give them to her? 

A No She told me that shes ’ going to New York 

: i: / for good. So I said -- I said, Why ‘ are you goin to 

; :: i New York?” Well, ‘ Im ’ just going to ahead and P rnd a job 

:2 1 and live there, because my -- Im ’ -- m 

c :3; to New York, and I dont ’ think I can 

moms ’ going 

a x ord to pay the 

o I say, Well, ‘ tell ou what - if youre ’

Did she ever tell you anything about her 

Page 39 

[ 11 relationshi with the President? 

t21 fl No, maam. ’

I31 Q Did she ever ask you anything about his schedule? 

141 A The Presidents ’ schedule? 

151 Q (Nodding.) 

i6i A Yes. - 

[?I 0 What did she ask you? 

181 A In the telephone, she said, “How you been doing?” 

(s]“Ftne.” “How is the President doing?” “Oh, its ’ good. Hes ’

tlo]has a very busy - he has a very bus 

.I 

schedule.’ You know, 

tl~]things like that. Some things - I thrn she ask, “Is he 

I 121 busv today?” 

-Cl Is who? 

i~sjspecificalTy to her. 

Q About how many times did she ask you questions 

I:iiabout his schedule? 

A Not - sometimes she - on the schedule I remember 

I::fone. But she could ask me sometime, “How is the Pre&dent 

tzsldoing?” “Hows ’ your boss doin 

t~]“Hows ’ your boss doing?” “Oh, gh 

?” Not “the President.” Say, 

es ’ doin 

0 X? 

fine ” you know. 

[251 About how many times dr you have those 

Page 40 

[I 1 conversations? 

A Its ’ not all the time she ask me that but I would 

i:isay she called me once a month, maybe twice a nionth 

tclsometimes. Depends, you know, my schedule, because I travel, 

(s]too. I travel. I could be gone for 10 days sometimes. Do 

ts]the pre-advance, go overseas -Japan, Argentina, anywhere 

( 7 1 else. 

And if I leave Glen Maes was there. Sometimes 

ii;Glen Maes received a phone call, and he chat with Monica. 

Q 

I:yithe Pentagon? 

And this during the period that she was working at 

t121 A Yes, ma-am. 

[131 Q And these are calls that you received at work? 

[I41 A Say again? 

I151 Q You received these calls at work? 

1161 A Yes, uh-huh. 

Q Did she ever ask you any questions about the 

i :i i Presidents travel plans? 

(191 A Yes. 

t201 Q 

A 

What did she ask you? 

She ask - one time said “Oh I heard on the news 

I::ithat hes ’ going to so many place. Are you going in there?” 

[zs]“Yes.” You know, ask me like that. 

[241 Somebme sard, “Im ’ not oing to this trip. I will 

]25]lag behind. Glen Maes iS going.” 4 hats specrfically that 

.~. 

i-1 Q 

: 3 i travel olans? 

About how many times did she ask you about his 

ill A 

[ ijl can recall 

Not -- not - not more than two times, I belreve - 

ii’ Q 

]Ti A 

Drd you ever drscuss a specrfic trip with her? 

I tell her that a specrtic tn that wheres ’ he 

[? Igorng. Ltke. hes ’ gotng to L A things II -R e that. 

; 9 , 

;01 

Q 

A 

Do you remember which - 

Because of he_ - he (s[c) WIII ask me, “Are you 

I 11 $oong ’ to be gocng to the trrp7 Somehmes. the tn 

P 

of the 

1. : resrdent rs In the news already before - before 

13; 

know it. 

Q 

A 

Do you remember which trips you discussed w:th 

The last hme IS when I went - I just came 

i 5 1 back from Virgin Island. Thats ’ ail I discussed with her 

;6]1s - sometimes she ask me. “How 

:T 1 receive a - this was January 6th w z 

ou doing?” - because I 

en she call me. I - I 

1 s 1 arrive in Janua 

lg]“Oh. its ’ qreat. f ‘

4th. “How you been? How is our trip?” 

ow its ’ hot out there” - thinos III, e 

irojthat. - 

1211 Q 

j22j 

Did she ask YOU anvthinq else about that trio? 

A No, maam. ’ _ _ - 

!231 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

!24] .. Q Pardon me. did you say January 5? 

(251 A January6. 

Page 42 

[II 0 Of this year? 

[21 A Yeah. 

[31 BY MS. WIRTH: 

!41 0 Which s 

ts]discussing with you 

cific trips do you remember Monica 

be fpe ore the tnps took place? And these 

[ 6 1 are the Presidents ’ trips? 

[?I A Are you asking about a specific trip - 

1s: Q 

A 

If you remember. 

(91 she asked me? 

I101 Q yes. 

1111 

MR. BiNHA 

Brief interru bon to proceedings.) 

Just for the record the door opened 

I::iand Bruce Udolf. another associate independent counsel, has 

[II Ientered the room. And the door is closed. 

[I51 THE WITNESS: Its ’ okay? 

L161 BY MS. WIRTH: 

(171 Q 

A 

Sure, its ’ okay. 

I believe its ’ in the middle month of - middle 

i$ipart of 1997, somethin like that. 

0 Okay. B o you remember which specific place the i:T iPresident was going to? You mentioned Los Angeles a minute 

122 ]ago. Do 

tss]that the d 

ou have a memory of her discussing wrth 

resident was going to take to Los Angeles J 

ou a trip 

A I dont ’ know - I dont ’ know where we going. I 

i::lforgot where. I got so many trips that I cannot recall. I 

/ her 

Page 43 

f I 1 cant ’

tz]thrs pace, ? 

ive you a p&e, when I say. “Well, were ’ going to 

somethrng kke that. 

Q Do you recall any specific place that you discussed 

!:jwith her that the President was gotng to? 

A Im ’ sorry. I cannot recall anything. I cannot 

Izlgive you example of that. 

t71 Q Oka 

rslwhether she would g 

Did she ever ask you any questions about 

e able qet in to see the President on one 

isjof his trips? 

rlnl A No 

,‘“I 

I111 Q ‘ 6; ‘ ou know whether Ms. Lewinsky ever sent anythi 

[ rz]to the President rn .Yhe kne of a letter, a note, a package, 

I I 3 I an envelooe? Lo., 

1141 A ‘ No, maam. ’

Q Did she ever ask for your assistance in getting. 

j:z;anything to the President - in delivering anything to him? 

(171 A No, maam. ’

I181 Q Do you know whether Monica ever gave any present 

i 19 1 to the President? 

t201 A No, ma-am. 

I211 Q Did she ever discuss that with you? 

lZ?l A No, maam. ’

Q Do you know whether the President ever gave any 

I::igifts to Monrca? 

(251 A No, maam. ’

-. 

(jlC-Starr Page 38 to Page 43 
BSA 

3061 

Bayani Nelvis, 1127198 

Page 44 

Q We were talkin a moment ago about times that you 

-i saw Monica after she lefl the 

I the Penta 

White House and was working at 

: went to de 9- rver M&MS to her at the Pentagon, and anot 

on, and I believe you mentcned a time that 

I! 

ou 

er time 

Page 47 

XMAX(8i 

t when you went out for with her for drinks -was it drinks? 

A Mm-hmm. 

.~ Q Oka 

A Q Mr&-$zitEat, yeah. 

,. A Yeah. we eat. 

r.. Q And you said that you had seen her approximately 

i Ii four times since she left the White House. Do you remember 

.:: what the other visits were - where they were and what thev 

i : 2 were about? 

c::: A Visit to the White House? 

IL ‘ Q No, you said that after Monica left the 

i I z : White House, you saw her about four times outside of 

L : 5 j the White House, and you told us at least about two of 

[ : 4: those incidents - one, when you went to the Penta on to 

!: : deliver M&MS. and another time when you went ou P wrth her 

,:: for dinner and drinks. .~- 

[TT: A Yeah. 

^>‘ ‘ Q Do 

is i j you saw hr outs dy e of the White House? 

ou remember anything about the other times that 

[:5: Back in 96 ‘ I see her before Christmas. I give - 

Page 45 

1 ‘ -we exchan 

,_: 

e gifts. 

.L 3 And where did that take lace? 

[3’ 

; 4 j Pentagon “city right here drink coffee. 

It take place - I think in 8 e Starbucks right in 

[s: Andthe ’ other one is 1997. We - I give the - you 

:;: know, exchange gifts 

,z 

ou know, so - 

_-- 

:,: 

Q Is this 

i G jDecemberAof 1997. 

hristmas or birthday? 

Birthday. And the last time I see her is on 

You just testified that in 1997, you met with her 

il-fl give her- I - 

t14: Q Is that the lotion? 

t19: A The lotion, yeah. 

r20: Q Okay. All right. When is your birthday, by 

izljthe way? 

_ _ 

[22! A January 17th. 

[231 Q 

1241 A 

And when is her birthday? 

July 23 if Im ’ not mistaken. 

f25i Q And did you meet and exchange birthday presents at / 

Page 46 

[I :the same t$re, ;o,did you meet when it was your birthday - 

and when it was her birthday? 

Not exactly the birthday. Not exactly the day of ’ 

presents at the same 

A No, maam. ’

t 2~ : her, so two of us will be gone.” 

I-“. ,--. Q Did she tell you her boss’ name, or did you know 

[ 2: : her bosss ’ name? 

t-73: A No, maam. ’ I dont ’ think I - maybe I met 

[2+:her, but - 

[25‘ Q Do you know that name Jocelyn Jolley? 

she 

A Thats ’ the name of the lady. Thats ’ the name 6,: 

if : I really doesnt ’ know her personally 

; Q Okay And that Monrcas ’ boss, to the best of 

: ; : your knowledge? 

A Yes. 

.r: Q 

A 

And MS Jolley was leaving. as well? 

-. Yes. Thats ’ what she told me. .?: Q Drd MS 

: 3 j Ms. Joltey 

Lewrnsky tell you anything about why 

was leavmg’ 

I:?] A No, she did not explain to me, and I did not 

[;:lask her. 

[X1 Q Did she ever explain to you at any time after 

r : 3 1 that conversation whv she left the White House - “she” 

1 i 4 i being Monica? 

[lij A After she left, she got hired -- she said 

[ 16 I somebodys ’ working out that she could transfer to Pentagon. 

[ 17 j She sard. “I got a line-up already to the Pentagon afler I 

! 1 e Iwill leave the White House.” 

I191 0 At any time after she told 

[ 2 3 1 she ever explain to you why she left the &hite House? Did 

ou she was leaving, did 

12 11 she ever give you a reason for why she left that job? 

[221 A The reason that she gave is she say - is she 

t23jlike - she sound like confused. She said, “Wh 

~24 ltake me out? My boss is the one who was - “Yook like 

did they 

tzslfired, or lost the job. Why ‘ did they take me out?” 

Page 48 

I say Wh ‘ yeah ou could - ou probably can I 

I:; find anothe; - ” Said -’ tadvised “fv&ybe pu could 

[ 3 1 find another job somewhere around here in 

t I lyou know.” 

he White House, 

151 Q Did you ever hear anything from an other source - 

[ 6 1 other than Monica - as to why she left the White Hy ouse - 

I 7 1 why she no Ion er worked there? 

tei A fro. No. 

i91 Q Did you ever hear from any source why Ms. Jolley no 

I I o 1 longer worked at the White House? 

IllI A No, maam. ’

!121 Q Do you know whether Monica was happy working 

[ 13 1 at the Pentagon? 

A 

I::ishe is not ve 

Well the first two weeks she call me and she said 

t16jlike to go baz 

ha 

! 

py. She said “I love the White House. I 

to he White House.” Thats ’ what she was 

[ 17 ] telling me. And I said, Well, ‘ maybe some day. Why dont ’

t1s1you ap ly again. Maybe they have some opening.” I just say 

tlsjtt like t R at. 

Q Did she ever discuss with ou whether she talked to 

I:yithe President about coming back to the &ite House to work? 

1221 A No malam.- 

Q Did the President ever discuss with you 

I::;&. Lewiniky coFi;gaa$ to work at the White House? 

t251 

f11 Q 

Page 49 

Do you know whether an body at all assisted her in 

[ 2 I any way in her effort to get back to the &ite House? 

I31 A No, maam. ’

Q 

I:!- that Ms. Lewinsk 

I believe I mentioned a little while ago that she 

told you that she was interested in 

[ 61 moving to New-YOM; is that right? 

[71 A Yes. 

181 Q Do you know anything about any efforts on her part 

191 to obtain a ob ‘ in New York? 

A When she told me that - she told me that, you 

i :yi know, “My last day in my work is - my resignation is the 

r121end of this month, January - December. And Im ’ moving to 

I 131 New York.” And she did not tell me where she going to work, 

11s land she said she have interview - line up duty - I mean, 

I 1 s 1 line up work to o to New York. 

I161 BY &I. WISENBERG: 

t:;;ot 1997? 

Q You said “DecembeP -- you meant December of 97 ‘ - 

I191 A Yes, before that. I think one - one month maybe 

(201 

1211 P o New York. And then when we met December - I 

nor to December, she call me that she is looking at ob ‘

b elreve 

i22 jDecember 17. we met - that - because she told me she going 

[23jto give me a 

1241 BY%&. WIRTH: 

ift. Thats ’ why I have to meet her. 

.- ~, 

t251 Q Okay. And that is the last time you saw her? 

Page 44 to Page 49 OIC-Stan 
ESA 

Page 50 

::’ 

:_ 

;_:- 

A Yes. Dezmber 17. 

Q 

A 

And wrere did that meeting take place7 

In Califcmla Pizza In Pentagon also. Was to 

Page 53 

XMAX(9) 

i: -Pentagon. 

i. 

,- Q 

:c A 

Okay And what did you talk abqut at that meet]: 

She ta!k abou! - about getting a job She said - 

- ‘ we talk qo mostly lob 

(5. 

i>- 

- AQ A-b&t what? 

r;: 

Mostly about her ob. And I advise her. Why ‘ do 

ou have - ” I always ,ust say. 

i 11: u, ou got a good job in + 

bhy ‘ do you have to leave. 

entagon and -- ” Oh, the only reason 

(1z.l~ I dont ’ think I can afford the payment here. And also, my 

[I 3:mother will be there. And I probably happy.” 

114: And I said. Well. ‘ I probably wont ’ see you 

115;anymore. * “Maybe - its ’ only about an hour. Maybe if I 

116:come back to here some day, then I give ou a call.” I said, 

[I::-Fine.” But I said that. What about my g1 .x to you for 

[ls:Christmas gift? I mean. I have to ive you somethmg, and 

r1~1vou know -” I (sic) said. “I will ca 3- I I I can ever 

i;oj&meback” 

121: Q She said that to you? 

A Yes. 

Q And so you did not exchange presents at that time? 

A No. 

Q All right. Did she ever tell you anything about 

Page 51 

rl;any specific places she was interviewing in New York 

12 1 for jobs? 

[31 A No, maam. ’

Q Did she ever discuss with you whether the President 

I:iwas assisting her in any way in getting a job in New York? 

c.5: A No, maam. ’

Q Did Ms. Lewinsky ever - in any discussion that you 

Ii j had with her - express any concern to you about testifying 

19: in the Paula Jones case? 

1101 A No, ma-am. 

r11: Q Did the subject ever come up of the Paula Jones 

rl::case? 

r13: A No. 

1141 Q 

ilsjwith you? 

Did Ms. Lewinsky ever discuss Vernon Jordan 

1161 A No, maam. ’

Q Who is Steve Goodman (sic)? You mentioned him a 

~:s~little ’ whileigo. What is his job? 

,I(11 I ._ think his title is assistant to the President 

i%jalso. He; ’ kind 

_ .~~ _ ~~~ 

of the guy that ahvays rer&nd the President 

[ZI 1 about scheduling. Wherever the President go - hes ’ been In 

rzzlthe Oval office. Mr. President -” 

i23j Cl S ak up please. 

A x President ou have the Senator outside. Its ’

i::iabout time to see you.’ Somet mg like that. 

*{. . 

Page 52 

Q And hes ’ one of the three people that sits outside 

tilthe Oval office? 

[31 A Yes, maam. ’

[41 Q Now, do ou know by the name of Deborah Schiff? 

[51 

161 

$ E?prah ?&hiff? 

[7! A Yes. 

181 Q Who is she? 

191 A She work in the west lobby as, like, a 

riojreceptionist. 

ill: Q 

A 

In the West Wing? 

Q 

In the West Wing. 

Did you ever discuss her with Monica Lewinsky? 

[li!l 

[13! 

Il4! 

il5i 

[I61 

[I71 

[la! 

119: 

[zo:mmute? 

121: 

(22: 

123‘ 

i24j 

(25: 

A No, inaam. ’

Q 

A 

Are you familiar with the term “graduate”? 

“Graduate“? 

Q Yes. 

A No. 

MS. WIRTH: Okay. Can we take a break for a 

FOREPERSON: Of course. 

MS. WIRTH: Thank you. 

FOREPERSON: Lets take 10 minutes. 

MR. WISENBERG: A 1 O-minute break. 

MS. WIRTH: Thats ’ good. Thank you. 

:. 

z. 

._ 

THE WITNESSMS WIRTH Thank you 

TsEfi;y;SS 

Thank you 

Can I step ou13 

Yeah, sure 

MR WISENBERG: We Ii come and 

14 break was taken from 2 45 until 3:i $ 

et you 

p.m.) 

FOREPERSON. 

; tha: _. :tire ’ ?&ii under oath 

Mr Nelvls, Id ’ like to remind you 

THE WITNESS. Yes, maam. ’

.:1: Q 

:: avae:? 

Mr. Nelvis. do you know whether the President has 

Yes, maam. ’

Does he have more than one, or just one? 

We have two valet. 

Do you know the names of those persons? 

One is Manolito Bautista. 

Bautista? 

Baustista is that last name, B-a-u-t-i-s-t-a. 

And whats ’ the first name? 

Manolito. 

Manolito? 

M-a-n-o-l-i-1-o. 

And the second one? 

Godofredo Sanchez. First name is Godofredo. 

Page 54 

t I IThats ’ G-o-d-o-f-r-e-d-o; Sanchez, S-a-n-c-h-e-z. 

Q Did you ever have occasion to tell anyone that 

i:;Mon:ca Lewinsk was a cabinet secreta s ‘ daughter or a 

[I lcabinet membe Y s daughter when that in lvldual saw Monica 

7. 

! 51 with tie President? 

;61 A No. 

Q Have you ever told anyone at any time that 

IiiMon;Ca LeFinsk 

ia, t.In 

was a cabinet secretarys ’ daughter? 

Cd> a 

ji!jsomething 

ii&e ‘ you ever atany Iime j&nlified her-as 

other than what she was - either an intern or a 

[ 12 1 persan in the le islative office? 

[I31 A tie. 

I:liof MS 

Q Im ’ going to turn back for a moment to the subject 

Lewinskys ’ efforts to obtain a job in New York, to the 

L 16 1 extent that 

crou know anything about that. unng any of the conversations you had with her - 

I:ilwhewr they were on the telephone or in 

[ 191 ever discuss with you whether anybody a P 

erson -did she 

the White House was 

~201heloins her to set a job? 

iz1i - A -No.. 

Zto vou? 

Q Did she ever mention the name Bill Richardson 

I~~. _ 

[241 

1251 

A No. 

Q Did she ever mention the name John Pcxlesta to you 

Page 55 

111 A No. 

[21 Q Did she ever mention the name Bill Nash to you? 

I31 A No. 

[41 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

[51 Q How about Bob Nash? 

[cl A No, I dont ’ know. I dont ’ know him. 

L71 Q How about the ambassador to the United Nations? 

[El A No. 

[91 MR. WISENBERG: Pardon me. 

I101 BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q And 

tZ;was December 17 z 

ou told us that the last time you saw Monica 

997? 

1131 A Ye& maam. ’

1141 Q Was that the last time you also spoke to her? 

(151 A The last time I sooke to her is Januarv 8. in the’ 

;22jmov. 

-? 

to New York.” 

say, “Good. You know I have a Christmas 

ig:ithat I have to give. When can 1 give it to you?” B 

resent 

An she 

[rslsaid Maybe - * ‘

OlC-Starr Page 50 to Page 55 
BSA 

3063 

Bayani Nelvis, 1127198 XMAX-:’ ’ 

Page 56 Page 59 

ii ‘

:: for her? 

Cl You said to her you had a Christmas present A Yes 

_ _. 

.i: A Yes Because I have to - I want to return 

[:4!told her. 

!151 But on that da 

[ 16 I went to work early. then r 

-- Thursday - Im ’ coming from -- I 

go home because the President went 

i :7 1 to New York. Then I went home. and then I aet the aift from 

i 18 j my house. 

1191 And goin 

! 20 I-- first, I dont ’ know 9, 

to Watergate, I call in my cell phone her 

er number, except that she - on 

i211 January 6, she - she said, “Do you know my number?” She 

(22 1 (sic) say, “I want to call you first before I o over there.” 

[231 She say, “Yeah, this is my num % er. because - 

124 land she never give me house number, anyway. All I know is 

tzsjthe Pentagon number. Even the caller I.D. card says out 

Page 57 

[I lof the area. Shes ’ not registered. She call at home when 

[ 2 1 she call me. 

I31 So she 

14 1way. As soon as P 

ive me the number, and I call her on the 

leave, I call a cell and - answering 

1 slmachine. So I leave a message, say, “Monica, this is Nel. 

[ 6 I Could you page me at this number.” M - I 

~7 I and pager number. “Im ’ on my way” - r a 

rve my number 

say hat. 

!81 

19 1 minutes she page me. She said “&I I cant ’ see you today. 

Then later on they (sic pa e me - another 5 10 

[loland I cannot talk to ou in the phone. Im ’ in trouble.” 

;;;;Thats what she toidYme. 

[ 13 l else. 

And then I dont ’ - I dont ’ think of anything 

I just go to - I just go home, because the weather is 

I 14 l raining and, you know. 

t151 Q When she said to you that she was in trouble, did 

t I 6 1 you ask her what kind of trouble she was, in? 

Cl71 A 

[is]cannot talk to 

No, she did not talk anything. She &st said I 

tlg]- Ill ’ be at wo x 

ou on the phone. And I even sard, Can you 

tomorrow, Fnday. Could yousrve me a 

tzo)call when can I see you and rve ou the grft. 

[211 So she just hang up. the &dnt ’ give me any 

tzzlanswer. 

1231 Q And this was January 8th? 

t241 A Thats ’ January 8th. uh-huh. 

t251 Q And have you had any conversations with her 

Page 58 

[ 11 since then? 

121 A No, maam. ’

[31 Q Have you ever met any of her lawyers? 

I41 A No, maam. ’

[Sl Q Have you ever talked to any of her lawyers? 

t61 A No, maam. ’

I71 Q 

[alsubpoena; 

Now, youre ’ appearing here today pursuant to a 

is that correct? 

[91 A Yes, maam. ’

Q 

!:!;did you tell anyone ot er than a lawyer that you received 

When K,U received the first subpoena that you got, 

t12)a subpoena? 

Cl31 A Yes, maam. ’

I141 Q 

A 

Who did you tell? 

I talked to my immediate supervisor. Name 

I :z i is Lieutenant McCain. 

[ 17)lieutenant. 

Hes ’ a Navy supply officer - 

I call her - call Pers - there s 

[ 18 1 an FBI thats ’ lookin for me. 

1191 Q Pa%n me? 

I201 A 

t211for me. 

They said - my wife said theres ’ an FBI looking 

021 Q Oh. 

A 

j::jAnd then - 

But I wasnt ’ home yet. So I called my lieutenant. 

1251 Q Is this someone looking for you at home? 

Page 56 to Page 61 

[14] And I received that on the morning - the morning 

!15]24 - in the morninq. 

I161 

Cl71 ii? ?t%i ta!ked to Lieutenant McCain. As I told 

dVii 

[le] ou, its ’ my boss. And I think he call the director of 

de House military office, which my immediate boss. 

Q Okay. And did you talk to anyone at the 

is!iWhite House about the fact that you received a subpoena? 

1221 A Yes, maam. ’

I231 Q 

- A 

Who did you talk to? 

!241 The military oftice called Cheryl Mills - 

rzs1Cheryl Mills, one of the lawyer in the counsel office. Then 

Page 60 

[III see her. 

121 Q Did YOU speak to her? 

t31 A I speak to’ her. 

141 Q 

[51 A 

Did ou s ak to her about Monica Lewinsky? 

No, Y - I 8”s on t want to - I dont ’ want to 

tclanswer that question. Thats ’ - you know, thats ’ my 

[ 7 1 privilege that - 

I81 MR WISENBERG: 

[ 91 about it? 

Do you want to talk to your lawfer 

!I01 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

[ill MS. WIRTH: Fine. You can step out a ain. 

!I21 3 112, 

($ness excused to consult with counsel. 

LJI ’

Cl41 FOREPERSON: MI . . Nelvis, Id ’ like to remind you 

[15]once again that oure ’ still under oath. 

1161 THE &ITNESS: 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Yes, maam. ’

Cl71 

[181 Q Mr. Nelvis. other than Cheryl Mills, did you speec 

[ 191 to anybody else in the White House counsels ’ office? And 

120 1 just give us the_ name, if thats ’ the case. 

[211 A No. 

Q Oka 

I::ito anybody else at 

. 

x 

Now. other than Cheryl Mills did you SW 

e White House about the fact ihat you 

t24 1 had been subpoenaed to testify here today? 

1251 A No, maam. ’

Page 61 

Q Has anyone other than your lawyer - and well ’

I:; leave out for the moment any conversations you may have had 

t3)with Cheryl Mills; lets ’ put those aside for the moment. Did 

[ 4 1 anybody other than your tawyer - and once again, leaving 

(51 asrde anything Cheryl Mills may have said to you - give you 

[ 61 advice on how to testify here today? 

t71 A No. Simp counsel. 

Q Okay. D’ 2 anybody other than our lawyer - once 

189;agajn leaving aside Cheryl MIIIs - talk to you a 16 

;;;;testrmony;oda$o ma,am. 

out your 

Q Okay. In the last two weeks have you discuss= 

:::1]Monica Lewinsky wrth anyone else other than your lawyer - 

[ 14 1 and again well ’ leave out Chervl Mills? 

1151 - A No, maam. ’ . 

1161 Q 

I I 7 I the President? 

Okay. Did you discuss your appearance today r*rh 

ll8i A No, maam. ’

Q 

;::1]Mrs. Clinton? 

Did you discuss your presence here today with 

t211 A No, maam. ’

[221 Q And Im ’ going to just give you a list of names an: 

12 3 1 ask you to answer “Yes or No’ to the same question. Did 

t24 )you discuss your appearance today with Erskine Bowles? 

I251 A No, maam. ’

-. 

OIC-Stan 
. 

BSA 

. AQ 

--, _ --. 2 

1 Q 

: : i : is his name? 

:: .--i A 

.. 1- _- -, 

,._. 

.- AQ 

I ‘ L- /_I, 

. . >. 

_-.._ AQ 

.__. 

_--. 

.__. 

_. -. ___, 

. . . .._ 

3064 

Bayani Nelvis, 1127!98 XMAXfltf 

Page 62 

With Harold Ickes? 

No. maam. ’

Mickey Kantor? 

No, maam. ’

Any employee of the Whrte House? 

No, maam. ’

VernonJordan? ’

No, maam. ’

Robert Bennett? 

No, maam. ’

David Kendall? 

No, maam. ’

The lieutenant you mentioned a moment ago -what 

Lieutenant McCain. 

And what is his first name? 

Allan f&Cain. 

Is it McCain, like M-c - 

M-c-C-a-i-n. 

Okay. And his tirst name is Allan? 

Correct. 

Qkay. .A-i+r-n, or A-l-i-e-n? 

:rj: A A-i-1 - 1 oelleve -- a-n. 

“4: Q - a-n? Okay. In the last two weeks, have you had 

i z 5 ; any personal conversations with the President? 

__ ~_.._-~.__-.-._ .._______._ -- 

Page 63 

::: A No maam. ’

:1! Q Either in person, or on the telephone? 

:?I A No, maam. ’

Q Have ou discussed Monica Lewinsky with the 

if 1 President in the ast L o weeks? 

r .;I A N! maam ’

Q Okay. Have you had occasion to discuss the 

f: i Presidents ’ deposition in the Paula Jones case with anyone 

: 5 i the last two weeks? 

in 

. . . . .-2: A No maam. ’

. . . 1 

jfI!for you. 

MS. WIRTH: I believe a grand juror has a question 

[:31 A JUROR: 

: L z ; question for you. 

Well, actually, I have a two-part 

::s]have - 

First of all, when you had gone out to 

sa on M Street to the bar and rill to have dinner, 

: : 61 or the Call omra Przza Kitchen - about 

f. i! ow long, on 

those social meetings would be 

She talk about my - she talk about 

Page 64 

and her family and brother and 

Yes. I told - 

A JUROR: Did she - o ahead. 

THE WITNESS: I told II er, Why dont ’ you go find a 

Page 65 

: : : boyfriend.” you know. And she said, “Yeah, m 

.: ;two blind date,” and somethIng ltke that it didn BY 

mom set me up 

work out. 

:. ‘ One ttme she said -- in a conversation, we were 

j; jeating. “They send me to New York. I have to fly Fnday. 

_: I have to meet a guy We go Out for dinner and didnt ’ work 

: clout. In Pentagon. some guy a ltttle older than me proposed 

: - lsomethin 

!; :and so. I ?+ 

but tt didnt ’ work out. I dont ’ like him,” So 

s lrke that. 

;. A JUROR: Thank you. 

Ii?! BY MS. WIRTH. 

-1.1 Q Okay. Mr. Nelvis,. you have present outside the 

! Is IGrand Jury toda two attorneys; IS that correct? 

[:?I A Y%s maam. ’

i:4i Q And’ they are your attornevs? 

A Yes, maam. ’ . 

Q And did you hire them? 

A I - can I ste out and talk to my counsel? 

MS. WlRTH: 4s 

MR. WISENBERG: ’ Sure. 

piness excused to consult with counsel.) 

iiii 

[Z] ’ FOREPERSON: 

THE WITNESS: 

Mr. Nelvis youre ’ still under oath. 

[23j Yes, maam. ’

(241 - Yes, I hired - I hired him. 

1251 

Page 66 

!?I BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q Okay. And how did you come to hire him? How YOU 

I:idid you hear - how did you find this lawyer? How did you go 

[ 4 ) about doin 

izi 

1 

that? 

Im ’ think I have to step out again - 

MS. WIRTH: Okay. 

[71 THE WITNESS: 

MS. WIRTH: 

- talk to my -talk to my counsel. 

[Bl tm ’ goin to have one other question, 

f 91 as well, that you can consider, an 8 

I iolyour legal fees if an o 

that IS, who is paying 

ill] BY MR. ~SENBERG: 

I :: i questions: 

Q When you go talk to your lawyer - so there are two 

Whos ’ paying your legal fees, and how did you 

[14jcome to hire? 

[ISI A 

il slfee. 

Right now, I will answer you that I will pay my 

L__, --- 

Q Okay. Do you want to go talk to your lawyer about 

Itlithe other should ou? 

f191 A Ob . About the -whats ’ the question again? 

r201 BY MS. &iRTH: 

Cl The question is: How did ou come to hire this 

I:: ilawye7! Did anyone recommend him? t? . 

tzs]about him? 

ow dtd you find out 

(24 1 

I251 

A Okay. 

(Witness excused to consult with counsel.) 

Page 67 

~. . l ** 

FOREPERSON: 

iiithat youre ’ still under oath. 

Id ’ like to remind you, Mr. Nelvis, 

[41 THE WITNESS: 

MR. WISENBERG: 

Yes, maam. ’

Let the record reflect that the 

izlwitness has reentered the Grand Ju 

I 7 1 the Foreladv that he is still under oat x 

room and been advised by 

. . . 

And let me .ust say that the 

ji;questions involving a d 

a 

P ty 

parent1 these 

orneys are going o be de ermrned at a 

tlojlater date. So what Id ’ like to do now IS I think, ask you 

I 1 I I- do YOU mind if I do the document stuff? 

f121 MS. WIRTH: No do it. Do it. 

[I31 BY MR. WISENEEkG: 

Q 

f::tsubpoena: 

You already testified you came here pursuant 

is that correct? 

I 

to a 

i16i ’ A Yes, sir. 

Q 

i:iithat correct? 

The subpoena asked for certain documents; is 

1191 A Yes, sir. 

I201 Q And youve ’ brought those documents with you; is 

tz11 that correct - or items with you; is that correct? 

122) A Yes. sir. _ 

[231 Q Items as well as documents, correct? 

[241 A Yes, sir. 

1751 Q Could you please take a look at the first one there 

OIC-Starr Page 62 to Page 67 

- 
asA 

3065 

Bayani Nelvis, 1127198 XMAXllPl 

Page 68 

i i ; and tell us what that is. Thats ’ in a Manrla envelope of 

: 7 ; some kind 

I3i A 

:4:1996. 

This is a -- this is a happy birthday with the tie, 

:5: 

:;jj z Aq7kda~his a 95 ‘ thank-you card that -- 

Here whats ’ were ’ going to do: Im ’ going to put 

ii ‘ !exhibit strcker on the envelope. And would ou a ree with me 

3 3) that Ive ’ put a Grand Jury exhibit sticker an J labe P. ed It 

: o 1 BN-1 - would vou aaree with me that I have labeled it BN-l? 

ii] A 

Q 

*Okay: ‘ Yes. 

!?I Okay. And then within that envelope were two 

I< j to you from Ms. Lewinsky; is that correct? 

;4] A Yes. sir. 

Q All right. And Im ’ going to mark those with an 

iziexhibit sticker. Im ’ goin 

17 1 marked one of them B Ng 

to mark one of them BN-2. Have I 

-2? 

191 

Aa I 

Nodding.) 

191 s that correct? 

an 

cards 

12oi A Yes, sir. 

Q You have to sa 

1;: 1 thats ’ dat$ DeFeFb;;.29; is t l 

“Yes” or “No.” And thats ’ the one 

at correct? 

i231 

Q All h 

I::lits ’ dated January 1 3 

ht. And then Im ’ taking the other one -- 

, 1996; is that correct. 

Page 69 Page 72 

[Ii 

(4 1 that as Exhibif BN-3; is that correct? 

[51 

A 

A Yes, sir. 

Yes, sir. 

161 Q 

Q 

All right. And Im ’ now going to take those - and 

[ 7 1 let the record reflect Im ’ taking BN-2 and 3 and putttng them 

All right. Im ’ oin to mark that on the back with 

j:jBN-3. I want you to confirm or t erecord that Ive ’ marked 

[ 8 1 back in theAenv$2ep!iyhrch IS BN-1; IS that correct? 

191 

3 i! 

Q 

I :F i have a whff” envelo-w; is th 

,171 I have the tie 

Ai>{& And what dolou have next there? You 

lat correct. 

.--. 

Q 

!s that she give it to me. 

Okay. All right. You have a white envelope with 

i ::ifour ties inside; is that correct? 

il5i A Yes, sir. 

Q All right. Im ’ just oing to mark the envelope, 

I:tiand Im ’ goin to mark that as B 

A %JROR: 

b? 4. 

Cl81 Can we see the ties? 

1191 BY MR. WlSENBERG: 

Q Okay. Could you hold the ties up for the 

Igyigrand jurors, please. 

[221 

i::l]back another da 

fiR. %.&%&~plie%e witness is goin! to be coming 

by the way. Is that a good enoug look? 

1251 A JU&R: Yes. 

Page 70 

[ll 

I21 

;;&~~&SE;~&$“’ 

Q All ri ht. Im ’ oin to mark the envelo e flap 

i:jGrand Jury Exhibit aN4. Bd-4. Gould you agree wifh me that 

15 1 Ive ’ marked it BN4? 

[61 A Yes, sir. 

Q 

!i 1 is that correct? 

All right. And then youve ’ got one more envelope; 

.~, 

(91 A Yes. 

Q All right. Im ’ goin 

[:yiWould you agree that I have mar a 

to mark that envelo e BN-5. 

ed that envelope B Fp -5? 

I121 A Yes. sir. 

(131 Q 

A 

And what is in this envelope? 

i::ion day that I called her that she wasn t 

This is the gift that I sup 

e, 

osed to give it to her 

ome, and she -- I 

t16lreceived the call that - as we discussed. 

I171 Q Okay. This is a gift you were going to give 

1 ;;I to Ms. Leyskqes, 

I201 Q You havent ’ given it to her yet. And I notice it 

12 11 in an envelo e. Was that in an envelope before you were 

t22lsubpoena 

L231 

$0 the Grand Jury? 

Q 

No, this is - its ’ wrapped up (indicating). 

All right. Lets take the gift out, and its 

I::jgift-wrapped. What IS the gift? 

Page 71 

r.- A 

:i lotlon in there. 

Its ’ a package of, you know, that Clinique with the 

i Q Oka 

::. agree with me that T %- 

Im ’ oing to mark the actual - would you 

m mar 

,i:card - 

Ing the gift Itself - theres ’

i;-. 

.-. A0 Yes. -_ an envelope on the gift, correct - a little 

I .-._ : :aift envelooe. correct? 

,a’ 

j-. A Yes. 

[IL! Q All ri 

2 

ht. Would ou a ree wrth me that Im ’

[ : I ,marking the gin as rand Jury tz xhrbt P BN-6. The actual 

11: : wrapped gift IS BN-6; is that correct? 

[13! A Yes, sir. 

[I41 Q All right. Now, Im ’ oing to mark the card “From 

[ 15 1 Nel to Monica” on the front. Woul r!I 

[ 16 1 have marked that BN-7? 

you agree with me that I 

[I71 A Yes, sir. 

[18! Q Is that correct? 

[ISI A Yes, sir. 

t2o1 Q All right. Is there a card inside? 

[:I1 A 

Q 

Theres ’ a card inside, yes. 

All right. Lets ’ take the card out. It says, Iif i"Merry Christmas”. IS that correct? 

I241 - A Ye;. sir. 

I251 Q And its ’ 70 ‘ Monica from Nel.” correct? 

E41 A 

Q 

[ll 

Yes, sir. 

izidoing that? 

A Yes, sir. 

Im ’ going to put BN-8 back in BN-7. Do you see me 

Q All right. Whats ’ our number - 7. Im ’ oin to 

Iz i mark the back of that card BN-8. Have I marked that I38 N- ? 

(71 - A Yes, sir. 

Q 

ti; into the white 

Im ’ oing to take BN-6 7, and 8 and put them back 

enve ? ope, which is BN-6. 

[lOI A Yes, sir. 

Q 

1:: 1 some of these exhibits: is that correct - that aooarentlv 

By the way there seem to be some other numbers on 

i 13 j your attorneys mi 

9R .. ‘

ht have ut there? 

Take a ook at B -6. Isnt ’ there a number down 

I:zlhere, too -a Bates number? 

A 

!f,6!+hink thnv - 

BN-3. This is - I believe its ’ a record. BN4. I 

L_. ,_......_ _.._, 

Q Okay. And these are also “BN ” but theyre ’ not 

i:i;Grand Jury exhibit stickers; theyre ’ little white Bates 

r20rstamps: is that correct? 

i2ij . A Yes, sir. 

Q Let the record so reflect. All right. Mr. Nelvis, 

iG:ithank you. Since we have these issues to resolve with your 

t24 ]attOmeyS, let me tell you that were ’ going t0 have t0 have 

t25jyou back; that youre ’ still bound by your subpoena; and were ’

2 

Page 73 

[ 11 going to ask you for now to come back on Thursday at 9:30. 

Now, Ill ’ have discussions with your attorney about 

i:ithat time and whether or not that time is going to change. 

[ 4 I Do you understand? 

[51 

[61 

[71 

181 

191 

101 

[221 

I231 

1241 

[251 

more 

A Yes, sir. 

MR. WISENBERG: 

Page 68 to Pabe 73 OK-Starr 
3066 

Bayani Nelvis, 1127198 

Page 74 

1:; CE?YIFICATE OF REPORTER 

[Ill f,“’ 

j--, 

[13! 

[141 

Cl51 

[16! 

1171 

L181 

[I91 

1201 

1211 

[221 

(231 

[241 

(251 

-- 

Elzabeth J. Walker 

OYzal Reporter 

OlCStarr Page 74 to Page 74 

- 
3067 

-- ..-.____.. 

Bayani Nelvis, 2/4/98 

grand Jury 

Page 1 to Page 41. 

CONDENSED TRANSCRIPT AND CONCORDANCE 

PREPARED BY: 

OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. . 

Suite 490-North 

Washington, DC 20004 

Phone: 202-514-8688 

FAX: 202-5 14-8802 

- 
BSA 

Page 1 

3068 

Bayani Nelvis, 2/4/98 

_-.__ 

XMAX(1) 

[I; UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 

FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 

[2]________________)( 

[3lln re: 

1: j GRAND JURY PROCEEDINGS 

[61 

(,l_______________LX 

181 Grand Jury Room No. 4 

[91 United States District Court 

[lOI for the District of Columbia 

I111 3rd 8 Constitution, N.W. 

I121 Washington, D.C. 20001 

I131 Wednesday, Februa 4 1998 

I :: i the 

The testimony of BAYA r;y BkAzA NELVIS was taken in 

116101 ’ .c! eptember 19. 199 , commencing at 2:07 p.m., before: 

resence of a full 

5 ‘

uorum of Grand Jury 97-2, impaneled 

- 

(171 SOLOMON WISENBERG 

iI81 DAVlD BARGER 

[I91 BRUCE UDOLF 

[201 STEPHEN BINHAK 

[211 Associate independent Counsel 

I221 

I231 

[241 

[251 Washington. D.C. 20004 

L:! “Dear Nei. 

13: l-hank you so much for the great Christmas gift and 

(4 I offiual apron. Maybe now that I have this apron, I will 

[s! cook batter tasting meals. It was very sweet of you to think 

[ 6) of me at this time of the year. 

/73 “Thanks again. 

LB! “Love, Monica.” 

I9l Q And thats ’ 29 December 1995? 

[lo! A 

[Iii Q 

Yes, sir. 

And is that around the time that Ms. Lewinsky was 

I 1: : working as an Intern at the White House? 

[13! - A Yes, sir. 

I141 Q Was that around the time of the budget crisis? 

115; A Yes, sir. 

I161 Q All nght. Let me show( you what D BN-3. This 

[ 17 1 looks like yth;;sz$ from Ms. Lewlnsky: IS that correct? 

II81 

1191 Q 

A 

Can’ you read that to us. 

I201 17 ‘ Januarv 1996. 

I211 “Dear Nel: . 

i::;friend. I hope all of your wishes are granted. All 

“Happy birthday. Thanks for being such a ood 

w e 

(24 ~best. Monica.” 

I251 Q All right. Are there any questions about these 

Page 2 Page 6 

Ill 

[zlWhereupon, 

[31 BAYANI BRAZA NELVIS 

14 lwas called as a witness and after being first duly sworn by 

I 51 the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and tesbfied 

[ 6 I as follows: 

(71 

181 MN 

14, 0 WO 

LATION 

WISENBERG: 

,-> _uld you state your name for the record, please. 

(101 A My name is Bayani Braza Nelvis. 

111: Cl And,are you the same Mr. Basanl Nelvis who has 

[ 12 1 testified prrlously in ,front of this Grand Jury. 

,131 

.--0 Yes. sir. 

I141 0 Ad that would have been on January 27.1998? 

I151 A Yes, sir. 

Q 

I:76iintroduced m 

Do you remember, when you testii here before, I 

setf. M 

I 1s 1 the Office of r ndepen J ent Counsel. 

name is Sol Wisenberg, and Im ’ with 

This is my colleague David Barger also from the 

i:iiOffice of Independent Counsel: This is Stephen Binhak from 

121 ~the office of lnde 

u8” 

ndent Counsel. And over in the back 

[zzlthere is Bruce olf from the Office of Independent Counsel. 

[231 And also the arand iurors and the court rewrter 

. i24jare here today. - e 

I251 Do you remember when I read you about the authority 

Page 4 

[ 11 of the Graid Ju 

%s sir. 

and what the Grand Jury is investigating? 

I:; 0, All 6ght. Do you remember when I advised you 

,4 labout your nghts and responsibilities as a Grand Jury 

15 1 witness? 

161 A Yes, sir. 

[I ‘ Q 

A 

Do you desire for me to reread those to you today? 

IBI No, sir. I think that enough. 

191 Q 

A 

You remember those, and you understand them? 

1101 I understand them. 

II:1 Q .Now. we marked. but we c&lnY have a chance a look 

I 12 lover someAexhl!e2 t,“;! you brought last ttme. 

1131 

I141 Q And’ Im ’ going to ask you to speak up when you 

115 I answer. so that the court reporter can take it down and 

I 16 1 so the 

[17]all rgh 8 

rand jurors in the back can hear you. Is that 

I181 A Yes, sir. 

1191 Q 

izolcorred? 

Now, we marked BN-1, which is an envelope; is that 

izii 

1221 

A Yes. sir. 

Q And within BN-1 is a card, BN-2: is that correct? 

. . 

I231 A Yes, sir. 

I241 Q All right. Please read the whole thing, including 

[zslthe date, to the Grand Jury. 

OlC-Starr 

II’ 

Page 5 

A “29 December 1995 

[ 1 lexhibits before we go on to the next? 

(21 

[Xl ~!fKpfi?&4B~~~: 

I41 Q And this is consistent with what 

I 5 I us last @ne, that you exchanged - after you r 

ou told 

go to know 

[ 61 es. Lewlnsky, you started exchanging birthday gifts and 

17 1 birthday greebn s’ is that correct? 

181 A ?e; sir. 

191 Q A&sometimes Christmas greetings. 

[lOI A Yes,sir 

(111 Q And Christmas gifts? 

1121 A Yes, sir. 

Q 

I :: ;we have four ties’ is that co&d? 

All right. Now weve ’ got BN-4. and within BN-4. 

[ISI A Y&s. sir. 

I i7” ; a look 

Q 

and 

And I think you held them up. I want you take 

rislin there. 

tell me whether or not those same ties are still 

I191 A Yes, sir, its ’ the same tie. 

1201 Q 

121 Igave YOU at drfferen Denods of bme? 

i22j- - 

All right F\nd the were ties that Ms. Lewinsky 

A 

Q 

Yes, sir: different. 

i::f recdedon, for a particular event - like a birthday or 

okay. Was it always to your knowledge, your 

rzs,fwChristmas-ordidshesometimesjustsendyouatie 

Page 7 

[ i 1 just to send you a tie? 

121. A She started first. I really dont ’ want to start 

131 It but since she started, I feel like paying back. Thats ’

r4ltheone-tharsthewayit0 

Iz; birthday or Christmas gift,. or did she just sometimes give 

I understand that but was a tie atways as a 

(71you a be j?t toMt ivlng R to you? 

181 

rslma - I alwa 

y%e the reason why is when she come around to s 

tys 

lie ties m elf. And she mentioned that she 

[101work in the te bade in Ca y tfomla. She said, I ‘ know how to 

r111pick out the ties: 

~::~Christmas, she said, “I ho 

And when she first give me the tie in 1995 for 

[I 4 lthis out and_ I know this co !z 

you like this because I picked 

r. I will tell you exactly 

11slwbere th.s be goes to what kind of clothlng, you know.” 

[islAnd Im ’ Interested of knowing those thing. 

[17l 

rlRl .--. 

AQ 

a 

E;shewas kind of giving youfashion ‘ ddvk% ‘ i ‘

iioi ’pent? That% what Im ’ asking. Did she sometimes just 

i3zwas it always for a Christmas or birthday 

1211 ‘

~22l&istmas, just to be nice to you? 

rve you a tie when it wasnt ’ your birthday or it wasnt ’

A 

/::itfmt I received is for that occasion 

I never - I dont ’ think - I think the only ties 2 

[2Sl Q For a particular o&.asion? 

-. . 

Page 1 to Page 7 
3069 

BSA Bayani Nelvis, 214198 

__-_ ----_______ “.__~ __...__~ _-- 

Page 8 

[1! A 

Q 

For a particular occasion. 

Okay. Now, take a look at BN-5. which is a white 

i:ienvelope; is that correct? 

i41 A Yes. sir. 

l51 Cl 

f 6 1 that correct? 

All right. And inside that is a gtft; is 

(7! A Yes, sir. 

[a: Q And the last time we looked at this, it was in a 

[ 9 1 little better sha I believe. 

I101 A rin-hmm. 

Q But the gift itself - the wrapping of the gift - 

i::iis marked~N6Y$th~; correct? 

[131 

0 

I::!70 Monica.” correct? 

Andthen ’ youve ’ got the envelope, BN-7, which is 

(1 Iwould get Ms. Lewinsky when you would exchange presents 

(2 1 with her? 

!31 A I bcught about three of them and I grve it to - I 

(4 lgave one to Be 

hty 

Cume. and I give some - I give one to 

Islone of the secre ary over there, too. I just give to the - 

i6land m wife - I mention to my wife that I bou 

(7lwrap iiy,p p 

ht it, she 

- wra this, and I give this to - exe 8, 

[alto those people hat grvrng me a gift. 

ange gift 

Q 

f ii;though. What youre ’ sayin 

Okay. I might have not been clear tn my queshon. 

[ 11 Igave this gift or a similar gi a 

as I understand you is 

to other people, as wet/; 

you 

r I 7 1 IS that correct? 

.~.. 

(161 

r171 

$ yes. sir. 

From Nel.” correct? 

I181 A Yes, sir. 

- l191 Q But you never gave this gift to her. correct? 

1201 A No, sir. 

l211 0 

A 

And please read the card to the grand jurors. 

%4e 

j::;Happy New Year. 

Christmas. Christmas 97, ‘ to Monica, and a 

%. 

Q 

/Ziit, correct? 

Okay. You didnt ’ write any special message on 

Page ? 1 

XMAxm 

.--I 

1131 A 

Q 

Yes, sir. 

1141 

(lsjlotion - 

But is this the kind of ift - this Clinique 

that you would typically give 9 o Ms. Lewinsky on 

l161her birthda or on Christmas? 

[I71 Al 

Q 

That is the first time I give it to her. 

i:t!with anybody 

Okay. All right. Have you ever talked about - 

- the Kllea of writing a book about your 

I 20 I experiences at the White House. 

i21j A I did. I did that. I did. 

f221 Q Okay. Now. tell us about that. who did you%& _ 

wjto, and when did you talk to them, and what was your idea? 

A I toM - I have a friend of mine from the 

i::iPhilippines, and when he visited me here, hes ’ very proud of 

Page 9 

A 

Q 

I never do an hmg like that to anybody. 

And thats ’ B x. 

A Yes, sir. 

-8 thats ’ you read, correct7 

Q For Clinique. Im ’ going to ask you when you 

i :i 1 brought this here last time, the wrapprng was all on; is 

( 12 1 that correct? 

I131 A 

Q 

Yes, it was wrapped good. 

IElthat correct? 

Okay. And now, some of it has fallen off; is 

I161 A Yes, sir. 

Q 

I:iithat correct? 

And theres ’ still tape right on the one edge; is 

1191 

I201 

$ ~~~d~ng.) 

m going to ask you to open the gift, B-6 (sic). 

I211 

1221 

6 w&lps c(lrrlplles.) 

1~ gotng to ask you: 

g23lin the same amditbn.rt was - 

Does thii appear to be 

. I20 

I251 “a Yes* - before s. ’ you wrapped it? 

Page 10 

Ill A Yes, sir. 

Q 

I: 1 il or anything like that? 

It doesnt ’ lode like anybody has come arid attered 

f41 A- No, sir. 

Cl All right. Just one moment. And this is - B-6 

- ti! has actual1 ““y”,“ti,p” the wrapping paper; is that correct? 

l?J cr 

!ilsmoother 

Q All &ht. And this is a body wash, a body 

and swnething else; is that correct? 

I101 A ‘ Yes. sir. 

I111 Q In the middle. aromatics elixir. is that correct? 

(121 A Yes, sir. 

1131 Q Ail nght. From Clinique; is that correct? 

I141 A Yes. sir. 

Q 

i :zloff, is Im ’ going to mark another exh&it. 

What Im ’ going to do since the wrapping has come 

I think we were 

I 17 J up to 8. so Im ’ going to mark this as BN-9, and Im ’ going to 

l181p~it&lhtOnthebottOmOfthisbox. 

1191 A Yes, sir. 

(201 Q Im ’ oin to put it here (indicati 

(21 lyou agree with me 

A’ Yesghsir? 

st am marking this RN-9 ?l 

). And would 

1221 

1231 Q 

i24i 

Have I done that? 

A Yes, sir. 

t251 0 All right.. Was this typical of the presents you 

Page 12 

11 lme. He said, “Oh. you work in the White House, and maybe you 

lzlcan write a book.’ 

. 

I said yes, but if I write a book I would like to 

I:ipublish in the Philippines about bein - experience of 

tslworking four years - four 

I 6 I and workin 

/? 

In the White r; 

ears - four presidents, I mean, 

ouse, you know. 

jiibut nothin 

nd I say that maybe we could do that you know, 

specifically right now what Im ’ going to write. 

I91 6 Right. 

ilO1 A I G&say ‘ about&at 

llll Q A!tl right. When did you first talk to this person 

r1zi-- your friend from the PhilipDines - about the idea of 

Oh. it was summertime of 1997. 

Page 13 

I:lan idea. 

A Yes. Hes ’ the one who brought it up - give me 

131 Q He gave you that idea? 

I41 A Yes, sir. 

Q 

!zl)after you left the White House? 

You agreed with him that it might be a good idea, 

171. A I - I - I kind of hesitate. I dont ‘ have any 

relidea about bo0ks. Ive ’ been in the White House for 18 years, 

[gland a lot of people always say Oh, ‘ you have to write a 

r1o)book. You could write a book.’ I never thiik about that. 

r111 Q 

~~~~~~~~~~~n~~~ng with you writing a bode -do you 

I 12 I not su gestin 

Oka . Well I want to make it clear. 

by e way im ’ questioning that there 

im ’

iisj A Yes, sir. 

Q 1 just want to know about this conversation or 

;:76iother c0nversatiins you hii 

[ 18 Iwriting a bfl”k. yE y,“i; c?h 

t have-had aboutthe-dea of 

un erstand? 

Cl91 . . 

Q 

rfiiy0u say to 

So when your friend suggested it to you. what dii 

him? 

A 

f%{to the Philip ines, and ma be retired here been wdrktng 30 

Kp 

I said to him that maybe after I retire I go back 

tzr lyean I sa I done enoug Y; working a lot. I ‘ mean so much 

_ 

r2s)already. I think I may need some rest, I may need some 

Page 8 to Page 13 OlCStafT 
3070 

BSA Bavani Nelvis. 214198 

I 

Page 14 

~_.__ --__ 

Page 17 

: business, and go back to my home place Thats ’ ai: 

Q All ri ht. Now, were any steps taken whatsoever by 

< : you or by ryb;-y z,: 9 ” - 

::’ 

.-. cl - to - youve ’ got to let me finish the question. 

Were any steps taken by you or anybody e&e with a 

;z jview toward this book 

f 5 1 to - just this P ” Lend? 

rbject be ond what youve ’ testified 

conversa Ion with a 

_ A Thats ’ all. Just conversation with a fnend. 

. . . 

1 f i j and to 

0 

get 

Okay. You didnt ’ tell him to go contact anybody 

started on the project? 

. _1 

--. A No, sir. 

.._. Q You drdnt ’ talk to anvbodv else about 

- I still have a lot of friends. I 

_ 

- / 

I 

A Yes, sir. 

Page 15 

: I j youve ’ told us that your friend brought it up, and you said 

~2 1 ou had a conversation with him and nothrng happened beyond 

: 31 rhat conversation. correct? 

L41 A Nothing happened, sir. 

:51 Q Then youve ’ told us that over the years. or over 

;:;: gok.” 

nod of time, people have said to you, “You could write 

, 

ii] 

:91 

A Mm-hmm. 

Q And you have said back something like, VVell, mayk 

: : 2 Iwhen I retire.” 

[:I] A Mm-hmm. 

i:21 Q Is that correct? 

[:3! A Yes, sir. 

Q And aside from those things that yoube just told 

ii: {us. have you talked to anybody about dorng a book - anybody? 

A Not lately. After my friend - after he left to 

Irt,the ‘ Philippines there, no one. 

. i24i A No, sir. 

I251 Q Is there anything about my questions you 

Page 16 

1 I 1 dont ’ understand? 

I-] ‘ A I understand your uestion. but just lik& I said, I 

tjtthink-didItalktoan~y,and8slikeIsaid,they ’

I 4 1 have some people as rng me that, “You could write a book.’ 

:51 But I never take it very senously about those 

: 6 1 thing, you know. I never say anything about reject. what 

i 7 1 Im ’ going to do about the book. Of course, I P alk to my 

I e jfnend that ma be the book will be my experience, 

r9jFilipino in thel;rh. 

be! 

rte House, working with four Presrden 

[i 5 ~Thats ’ the main thinq that we iust talk about - with 

“pa 

t : : j my friend. 

I:! ‘ Q Did you tell him that he could 

I L 3 I aaents or publishers and see if thevre ’ iust 

i : i i th> idea of a book? 

~I . 

in P 

o start talking to 

erested in 

1:5: A No sir. 

116; Q Did he tell you he was going to do that? 

!I;! A No, sir. 

I181 

[ 19 1 said to yoffi ~~~~~~~~~~0~~~~~~~~~~~~ *’ hav 

[ z 2 I of those people work in the book industry? 

12:1 A No, sir. 

[22! Q Do ou remember who an of these people were? 

I231 A x x 

I 2 4 1 sometimes 

We , most of them came om the Philippines. which 

- every time they have a - I have a lot of - 

I 2 5 I some classmate came from the Philippines, and I have to bring 

! 

4 

111 it for tours, theyre ’ ihe ones ahvays tell me, Why, ‘ you 

! 2 ] could write a book 

I31 

Butnotr 

ople around in the States. No friends - 

~4 1 no friends or c ose friend that advise me or an 

tslanybod 

coworker or 

t6lwrite a i 

in the Whrte House telling me that, 

oak.” Nothrn 

Jey. ‘ you could 

I71 Those are t 8 e people only like my cousin from 

1 B 1 California. like I have to tour them. “Oh, Nel, maybe 

[slwuld wnte book.’ Something like that. But I say, “0 

ou 

b 

[lolyeah. maybe,” just lrke that. 

, 

Q 

\ :: 1 book industry? 

And your wusrn from California - is he in the 

Cl31 A No. 

:141 Q Is he in the mess? 

iisi 

1161 t c”,%%%%!swer “Yes” or “No.” 

1171 A No. sir. 

I181 Q Is he in the entertainment industry at all? 

f191 A No, sir. 

Q 

I:yiof doing a tell-all book about the White House? 

And youve ’ never talked to anybody about the idea 

I221 A No, sir. 

1231 Q And when 

[ 2 4 Iwhdcame ‘ over from the 3. 9 

ou were talkin about with your wusin 

hilippmes - no the one in 

t25tCalifomia. but-was it a cousin or a friend? 

Page 18 

[II A Friend. 

Q 

[:,were ‘ talking with him about a book, did you mention 

Your friend from the Philippines when you 

I 4 t Monica Lewinskv at all? .~I 

I51 A -No, sir. 

Q 

176]with the President? 

All right. Have you ever gone on a trip to Russia 

ts1 A Yes. sir. 

Q When you went on that trip, was Catherine Cornelius 

t:zlon that trip also? 

1111 A Yes, sir. 

I121 Q Tell us who Catherine Cornelius is. 

1131 A Catherine Cornelius. as I know, worked in 

[ 14 I advance office. 

t151 Q The advance office? 

I161 A Yes. 

I171 Q 

tlejifyou know? 

And is that in the Ok! Executive Office Building, 

t191 A Yes, sir. 

Q On that trip to Russia did you ever escort 

~:!~Catherine Cornelius somewhere be&~se you thought it 

122 jwouldn? b”A saf;pmy to go out alone? 

1231 

:::;Russia 

Q O&y.Wasthereeveratimeonthetripto ‘

- and Im ’ not at all suggesting theres ’ anythii 

Page 19 

[ 1 Iwrong with this or anything imprddr - but. was there ever 

r21an occasrdn. ever a tnna I? this_ (31Cathe-_ ’ a___ ~I. ussran tnp where you took 

I41 

rnne >om:,ys anywnere-c _:_ 

[51 ..* 1 .* 

“q g*; 

Lt. Was there ever a time when you wers 

I 6 1 wnn Garnenne r;omelius with others? 

[71 A Yes, sir. 

Q 

~~~Comelius on the Russian trip. 

Tell us about all the times you were with Catherine 

I101 A 

[lllpe ople 

When - I was with her with a grou 

Before the President visit one place, we [: 

of pm-advance 

ave to do 

I 12 I he pm-advance. and we all a group people that do all the 

tl3tsite where.the President is oing to sta and site where the 

[ 1 I 1 Presrdent rs going to have R nctnns - &nner, speech, 

tlsjsomething like that. .We all -we all t 

I161 AQ ,y,” jtu$t go and scout 

yther. 

out ahead of time? 

,171 

L-l, 

1181 8 r\;l;i& did that with her and some others? 

I191 A Yes, sir. 

_I201 Q And ware some of those sites where you had to go 

[ 2 11 outside and some where you had to go inside? 

t221 A Yes, sir. 

Q All nght. So you went out on some of these trips 

I::jwith her, bf WV-T others also? 

[251 

- 

OlCStarr Page 14 to Page 19 
q SA 

Page 20 Page 23 

[:I 

i2; 

I31 

14: 

!5I Q 

[ 6 1 addition to 

All right. Did the men go along with tt-e women, in 

[7]any way? 

domg the scouting work, to help protect them in 

iB1 A 

Q 

Would you repeat it again? 

Did the men on this tnp go with the women - was 

]iiione of the reasons they went with the women on the tnp to 

[ 111 protect the women in any way, just because they were go]ng 

[ 12 1 In a bad part of town or an unusual place? 

I131 A I never noticed that, sir. We all just - ahvays 

::.as Grand Jury Exhibit BN-10, okay? 

And 

I: 1 Oval Office J 

ou can see that over on the left IS the 

an some other rooms on the first floor level of 

: 4 : the West Wina: is that correct? is; A “Yes, sir. 

Q 

iti this actually sa 

And over here - its ’ not printed ve well but 

I 

s West Terrace Upper Level,” an 3 

: 9 : West ‘ Terrrca yzy;ievei”: IS that correct? 

thus says 

:9: 

IlO! Q Okay. Im ’ not interested In these nght now. Im ’

[: i ] just lnterepd t$mp;;E the left. okay? 

112; 

113; Q You have to say “Yes” or “No.” 

(141 A Yes, sir. 

I151 Q Okay. Now, 

]ls]pantry where you and the ot K 

ou talked to us last time about a 

er steward, Mr. Maes, locate 

1171 ourselves when the President is in the Oval Office; is 

I .__, I R Ir hat ~~ correct? ~~. 

I191 A Yes, sir. 

Q 

I:;;Qmce,~ correct? 

Now, on the map, you see where it says Oval ‘

]14]in group. 

.~~, 1151 Q Okay. There was no safe+related reason? 

I161 A No, sir. 

I171 Q Is that correct? 

[I61 A 

Q 

Yes, sir thats ’ correct. 

1191 Oka ho 

[zo 1 never thanked you r or ma z 

oure ’ telling us that President Clinton- 

]zl]was safe?~ 

]ng sure that Catherine Cornelius 

I221 A No, sir. 

Q 

\::ltrip to Russia 

All right. And if somebody said at.that on the 

- Im ’ not saying its ’ happened, but rf 

[25]somebddy has said on that on this tnp to Russia, you 

Page 21 

11 ]esco&d Catherine Cornelius someplace so that nothing 

; : ;wouu hwjlen :;$J Eyrr;z &c;;&; 

I!.lhave 

Q If somebody has t&t us - Im ’ not saying that they 

- but if somebody has told rnvest’ ators or has made a 

]6]statement that says that Mr. Nelvis. on R e tnp to Russia, 

[ 7 1 on one OCCasion went out Catherine Cornelius becausa she had 

[ 8 1 to go someplace and it wasnt ’ safe, and he wanted to escort 

(91 her - if somebody has made they statement, they are 

[ 10 1 incorrect? 

Cl11 A I believe its ’ incorrect, sir. Incorrect. yeah. 

]12]No. not in my knowled 

Q Okay. WI. 

e sir. I never recall those things. 

II nght. Do you think thats ’ something 

I :: 1 that you would remember? 

A No sir I never have - never have 

i:zl]with those kind of ihings, like escprting because itJet s encpunter 

rI7]not safe. 

I161 Q 

A 

Okay. Thats ’ not your usual job? 

I191 

Q 

No, sir. Its ’ not my - 

All right. And you dont ’ believe you remember 

i:i;doing it with Ms. Cornelius? 

Page 22 

[ 11 remember is Im ’ always with a group. 

Q Okay. All 

Ive ’ never bean atone. 

t :{ looks like a map of a floor “3 

ht. I want to show you a map-what 

p an of the first floor of the 

[ 4 1 West Wrn . 

_ iZ;rny best. 

w 

Is that what that looks like? 

Im ’ sorry, I forgot my reading glass, but I try 

171 Q The witness has remarked - youve ’ said that youve ’

[B Iforgotten your reading glasses? 

I91 A Yes, sir. I should have carried them until - 

I101 Q Do you have them outside with our attorney? 

(111 A 

[I21 Q Okay. All n ht. 

1131 

No I kft it Pthe - my bag tn W&e House. 

A Now, lcoul 

0 All 

- I could see this, but - 

I::lright where Im ’ poin ?I 

ht. 

ng? 

Can you see that it says Oval ‘ Ofhca” 

l16j - A Yes. - 

[171 

1181 

;;",",o~,E~;~m~ glasses.) 

1191 0 Okay. WouM you like to try these and see if 

1201you can - 

I211 A Yeah, Ill ’ try. Okay. This will help. 

l22] 

I231 A0 %%s. 

I241 0 Im ’ going to put an exhibit sticker on this, and 

]zs]this is - I think were ’ on 10 now. Im ’ going to mark this 

1221 A Yes, sir. 

I231 Q Theres ’ a door - if this was a clock, theres ’ a 

~24 ]dodr at about 9 oclock ’ here leading out of the Oval Offce; 

I 2 5 I is that correct? 

Page 24 

Ill 

I21 

A Yes, sir. 

0 And that aoas into a hallwav: is that correct? 

i3i A Yes, sir. - 

<. 

Q 

I : { study; is that correct? 

And down here to the south of the hallway is the 

(61 A Yes, sir. 

0 

iziover to right he_re. Is that the bathroom? 

Now theres ’ a little room up north of the haltway. 

191 A Yes, sir. 

Q Okav. lo4be.t&nftbaraissam&h’ -a&e. ! 

i:i]dont ’ know whetherit’s ’ a room or what, but theres ’ a rr? rttla 

112 1 space marked off; is that correct - at least on this map, 

[ 13 1 theres ’ a liile space marked off to the left of the 

I I 4 1 bathroom; is that correct? 

A Only the bathroom that I could -that I coutd 

~:~l]tell you is there. 

(171 

1181 

4 ea + That% my first question to you. 

r 

Q 

IGiother room? 

Over to the left of the bathroom, theres ’ no 

I211 A No more. KS halhvay. 

Q okay. Theres ’ nododrfromthis haltwa 

I$: i Iii hallway off the Oval Office - and for purposes of 

this 

& 

124 ~reaxct Im ’ referring to, for purpcrses of the record, to what 

1251~~ cali Hallway No. 1. 

Page 25 

Theres ’ no door from this halfway hera - 

I: i Halfway 1, what Im ’ going to call - up to anywhere but tha 

r3,bathroom, correci ’

t41 A Yes, sir. 

Q 

I&Jdy, correct? 

Theres ’ a door up to a bathroom and down to the 

-iTI A Yes. sir. 

%oKECt? 

Q And then you have the dour in the Oval Office. 

rioj A Yes. sir. 

Q 

Klmdrn. correct? 

And then you have a door into the dining 

.~~, 

[131 A Yes, sir. 

j::lbathroom 

Q Atl rght. In this area to the I+ of the 

is there 

(161 

.A yea~rhh$$all of soma ktnd? 

Q 

I:&O&6iOka< Whafs kept on that will - do you know? 

(191 A 

Q 

Its ’ just a wall. Its ’ just a wall. 

Ifila ’ button collection on that wall? 

Okay. Do you know whether or not the President 

1221 A 

I231 Q. 

Yes, ha has a button collection. 

Okay. But there is no other room to the left of 

124 lthe bathroom - right to the left of the bathroom7 

I251 A No, sir. 

- 

. . . 

has 

Page 20 to Page 23 otcstarr 
3072 

BSA Bayani Nelvis, 2/4/98 

Page 26 

Q OkBy. Im ’ goln to.ask you to put a “B” there - a 

ii iB’ ” right here for where the ba a 

i 3 1 that wtth this pan? 

room IS. Can you just do 

14: A Sure. (Wrrness complies. 

Q And Im ’ going to ask you 

izihallway -just H-l? 

1 o put “H-l” for this 

[:i A Whats ’ that mean “H-l’ - hallway - this hallway? 

1s: Q Somewhere tn thi? halkay that leads to the 

(s!dtnrng roog, If ou could just ut H-l In there. 

[lo: bkay. “H-l _” gkay. (Witness complies.) 

1111 Q 

112: A 

Ani 2~ you done so? 

[13! Q And if you couM put an “s” down where the 

[14 istudy is. 

[ISI 

Aa $$ ~~%%%%s~omplex” on this map - is 

::76lthat the same thina as a dining room? 

Page 29 . 

. Q All tight. I want to ask you a coupte of 

i; I more questions that Ms. Worth asked YOU last time 

: 3 1 that ydu were here. And I want to make sure that you 

; 4 J understand them. 

I51 Was there ever an occasion where anybod 

! 6]- saw Ms. Lewinsky in the White House, and you ha d 

- anybody 

to 

;71explarn to them who she was? 

tai A No. 

!91 Q 

::olMs. Lewinsk 

Was there ever an occasion when anybody saw 

i 

In the White House, and you had to explain to 

: I 11 them what; e ;t.s dotng? 

:121 

;131 Q Okay. Now, that we have these areas marked. did 

I 14 1 you ever see Ms. Lewinsky in the dining room - ever? 

1151. A No, sir. _ 

Ii61 Q All right. Did you ever see her in tha study?- 

1171 A No srr. 

1181 Q Did you ever saa her in the Hallway l? 

(191 A No, sir. 

:201 Q 

A 

Was she ever in your pantry area? 

i::ithe haltwa 

When she was a Intern. she could only go hare in 

1231 _ El In W-l -Walkway 1. 

t241 Q Yes. She cannot - she cannot enter. Nobody is 

r251supposed to enter on my pantry. 

Its3 ’ dining m&n. 

Okay. You would call that the dining room, 

era the pantry is, where you 

[ 11 and the other steward, Mr. Maes, are. 

Page 27 

121 A Its ’ right here (indcating). 

[31 Q Okay. Over here? 

A Yes sir, this one hens (inditing). Right there 

I :i on the side of this &al dining. 

(61 Q Oka . 

A i 

The upper right-hand side; is that correct? 

I71 Mm- mm. 

Q And in the center north of the dining room is a 

~Bs~fireplace. correct? 

[lOI A Yes, sir. 

0 Okay. And youre ’ telling us that to right of the 

I::ifireplaca is your pantry. 

il3j A- Y&s. .a?. 

[I41 Q Okay. Is that called the galley sometimes? 

I151 A Oh, Just antry. 

1161 Q The panry? P 

A Its ’ pant . 

fGy 

1171 

Q Okay. 

i:i;before. but since weve ’ got a map here and we didn 

ow, youve ’ done some testTing about this 

have a 

tzo jmap before, let me ask you: 

,711 Is there a door that leads from tha Dantrv - Im ’

i;;igoing to ask you to mark this hallway that runs to fhe north 

t2sjofRddm108andnorthofthediningroom-Pdlikeyouto 

. [241put W-l” there - W-l.” 

1251 A What you mean by W-l”? 

Page 28 

Ill Q “W” for Walkway.” 

I21 

I31 t \pdu”:Kar 

I41 ; viny complies~ Okay. 

kay And I want o know: Is there a door that 

_ Izllaads from the antry into W-l? 

I71 4 ees, sir. 

1161 A Yes, sir. 

Q Okay. Theres ’ no other rodm between the pantry 

~:~~tha walkway. You go right into the walkway, correct? 

I191 A Yes, sir. 

Q All right. Theres ’ got to be another door between 

~:~~tha pantry and dining room, correct? 

I221 A Yes, sir. 

0 And its ’ the same thing: 

i::;the pantry2to :h,“sdi$ng room. correct? 

You walk straight from 

I251 

* YO 

and 

Ill 0 

Page 30 

Okay. And did she ever enter your pantry? 

(21 A No, sir. 

I31 0 All right. Well. when you would talk to her, would 

t4 jyou be, likz sav’ ”,d:“gsi;t the open door of the pantry? 

191 .-a 

Is1 a An-d -4% all wouM strike up a conversation there? 

[71 A Mm- K mm. 

[Bl Q All right. And if she was walking ddwn W-l - let 

I 9 1 me ask you to mark this W-2” This is a different walkway; 

.~~, :lo~is that correct? 

ill1 A Yes, sir. 

;i2] Q All nght. Could.you mark that W-Z for ma 

!I31 

I141 

t Kness complies.) 

en you would see her where mxlfd 

I151 Id ’ see her from here, walkway hare, all 

ou sea her? 

;;;;goirq thattay gdicating). 

!h e way 

rls~that cnrract? 

kay. And when you say “here.’ thats ’ Room 111; is 

[I91 A Mm-hmm. Yes, sir. 

1201 Q Thats ’ where the chief of staff is. 

[211 A Yes, sir. 

Q All nght. You would sea her going fmm the 

IZ{chief of staffs office - literally from that office, or 

r241just from that area? 

1251 A From area here when she was hen?. I could - 

Page 31 

111 Q Okay. From Room 111 - 

I21 A Yes, sir. 

I31 Q Thats ’ a Yes”? 

I41 Aa 

IZtWalkwav 1. 

gN;i?.) Yes. sir. , 

nd then shed go walk down the hallway. 

i7i _ A Mm-hmm. . 

Q 

Iii Walkway 2. is that correct? 

You would sea her there. Youd ’ sea her go through 

I101 A Yes, sir. 

Q Did you ever sea her o through thii door to tha 

I:: iOval Office at 11 oddck ’ coming off 0 B Walkway 27 

1131 A No, sir. 

Q 

~~~lOfficewasackrck ’ andthiidddma 

And when I say 11 odock ’ I mean pretend the. Oval 

t i 6 j Dd you understand what Im ’ saying. f isfiieatll~dock. 

!171 A Yes, sir. _ - 

Q 

iifi;far could you see her o down? 

All right.. When would you lose sigm of hen Hdw 

!201 A When s 9, 

I211 Q Okay. 

e entered the door here - 

1221 

i:::of her2 

G 

- omg the secretarys ’ offce. 

Oiiay. Thats ’ about when you would lose sight 

1251 A Yes, sir. 

OlCStarr 

._ . 

Page 26 to Page 31 
3073 

BSA Bayani Nelvis, 2/4/98 XuI40 

Page 32 

Q 

I: i- oure ’ talkin 

And this - you said the secretarys ’ office 

i~]OfW-2. correc?? 

abcut the room just to the north 

[41 A Yes. sir. 

iSI Q All nght. And youre ’ sayinr there were some 

f 6 1 secretaries here, or rs this a waiting area. 

Ii 1 here 

A Secretaries’ office besides the Oval Office 

(indizting 

[91 A II right But that doesnt ’ open right off of 

r~o)Walkway 2; is that correct? 

[III A No, str. This is kind of - this is Walkway 2. 

rlz)Theres ’ another door here, but once - theres ’ another 

113)door here - 

1141 Q Right. 

and once she goes - she go out to the door, I ’ I151 A - 

~16]WOn’t ever see her. 

0 Oka 

i:i;other doorAyou$o~~~e 1 her anymore? 

So when she walks out of Walkway 2 &t the 

[191 

Q Is this door between Walkway 2 and this room to the 

i:i;north usually closed, or open? 

1221 A Its ’ always open. 

1231 Q Its ’ always open. Okay. 

Did Ms. Lewinsky ever ask you whether or not 

~::~could get access to the President on a particular trip? 

she 

Page 33 

[II A No, sir. 

Q And just so Im ’ perfectly clear on this, she never 

i:;called you about a 

3. 

the President was 

joasked you, “Do you 9. 

oing to take and 

Ink Id ’ be able to ge .rn to see hrm on 

t5)this trip?” zhe;zve;rssked you anything like that? 

161 

Q Did you ever have a discussion with Ms. Lewinsky 

iiiabout Debi Sch.ff? 

I91 A No, sir. 

[lOI 0 And if someone - 

A I think she mention Debi Schiff when I see her 

I :: iduring the radio address. 

(131 Cl You saw Ms. Lewinsk ? 

A I saw - I saw them in I he first - I believe it is 

i ::l first occasion when her family is in the Roosevelt Room,, and 

[ ;s)she mention to me that that must be Debi, because Debt wps 

(1811 said, Yeah thats ’ &sbi.” 

(17 jwalkina in the hallwa . And she sard. “That must be Debi. 

i:i!Debi.” 

Q ’ All right. Monica said to you, “That must be 

iZli A Yeah. 

I221 -and you said “Yes it is.’ 

I231 2 Mm-t~mm. Tha?s - Irernember ’ that I - she 

j24)mentioned it to ma. 

1251 Q Okay. And what was her response? 

Page 34 

111 A Nothing. I dont ’ see any. 

121 Q What was her attiiude to Debi? 

A Nothing. I didnt ’ see anything that - 

i:;particular reaction. 

Q 

- !z!not like Debi? 

Okay. She didnt ’ indicate that she did 

A No I didnt ’ - I dont ’ think I noticed 

Iii that or somethin 

Q C&f you have ever any other conversation with her 

r:z!about Debi Schiff? 

illj A No, no. 

0 Did 

!::!between Debi Sch If! 

ou ever discuss any relationship of an 

and the President with Monica Lewins 1 

kind 

.--. v? 

I141 A No, sir. 

1151 Q 

t16)are wrong? 

And if somebody had said that you did, they 

[I71 A Theyre wrong. 

Q Okay. What did Monica Lewinsky say to you 

i :iiwant to you listen to me carefuky, and if Im ’ unclear n 

jzolan way I want you to tell me, and 111 ’ rephrase it. What 

j21)d 

d I 

Monica Lewinsky ever say to you about any relationship 

(22 ] she had of any kind with President Clinton? 

I231 A She never tell me anything, sir. 

-I 

[241 

I251 ~R%AENBERG: Pardon me for that pause. Im ’

Page 35 

! ii oing to ask you to step outside for ust a few moments, and 

(2) 8 en we will call ou back in. May t e wrtness be excused? 

i31 FOREFERSON: Yes l!e may. 

[41 ,C? 

p.hf witness was excuskd and recalled.) 

,=, 

FOREPERSON: 

I;; youre ’ still under oath. 

Mr. Nelvis. Id ’ like to remind you 

181 THE WITNESS: Yes. maam. ’

i91 FOREPERSON: Thank ou. 

MR. WISENBERG: Let K e record reflect the that 

i:y iwitness. Mr. Bayani Nelvis, has reentered the Grand Jury room 

rlz)and that we have a uorum; IS that correct? 

[I31 FOREPE&ON: 

MR. WISENBERG: 

We have a quorum. 

i::;any unauthorized 

And Madams Foreperson, do you see 

FOREP/%ON: 

r-sons in the Grand Jury room? 

[I61 No sir, I don t. 

1171 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Mr. Nelvis, if somebody has stated on tape the 

~:~~following: “I dont ’ think Nel would lie to me about that 

jnojand I know that when they went to Russia, okay, she was 

jzlladvance for this Russia tn 

doing 

“They had gone on P. his tnp. It was last year 

I::& actually, rt was right after I got fired that he went 

[24 Isomewhere. I forgot where he went - he went to Japan, and 

[zs) he went to Russia, and Catherine advanced the Russia part of 

[ 11 their trp. 

Page 36 

And she had asked Nel to go out with her somewhere 

I:lbecause she didnt ’ want to go alone because its ’ unsafe. 

14 ~Catherine asked Nel.” 

[51 If somebody has said that on tape, the 

A I believe its ’ wrong, but mean 

re wrong? 

I ,“; I go with them. We always 

& at - I mean that 

LB 1 that, “Can you 

- I never recall about asking me 

i! 

o with me?” thin s like that. 

I thin when we go o 

[ :zirnean, every one of us. 

u? we all go together. I 

[ll)to her. 

I never remember about just by mysejf 

I121 Q Wtih Catherine Cornelius? 

A Wtih Catherine Cornelius. I think we go shopping, 

i::iwe have about five or six people, because everybody is in a 

jlslvan. We cannot go by just using a driver for two person or 

[16]OfIe person. Eve bod have to be, like carpooli 

[I71 Q i4i$ 

A 

B$not&tg like that eve; happe 

!:ilnever remember anything like that. But I mean that I go with 

It never happened like that sir. I dont ’ - I 

;;;;her. but wp a g16;,,, - 

ou went with Catherine Cornelius with a group - 

1221 

1231 Q - iswhat ’ youre ’ saving? 

i24j 

(251 

A Yes,.sir. _ _ - 

Q But R didnt ’ have anything to do with a place that 

z 

Page 37 

t 11 she didnt ’ rt$o.go alone? 

I21 

Q And if somebod has said on tape - if somebody 

t:i has said on tape that they - if & s. Lewins ahassaid 

[slon a tape recording, that she called you a asked if she 

[ri]could get access to the President on a trip, that didnt ’

~7 J happen either? 

js1 A Never happen. ’ 

I91 0 Pardon me just a moment. (Examining document_) 

And let me just ask - Im ’ almost certain I 

i:iiasked this but let me ask it again in case I didnt ’

Monica Lewinsk 

i::irelationshi ic! 

neveitold you anything about her 

I141 R 

witk;bsiVes en17 

1151 Q 

[I61 A 

No: she did not tell you? 

She never tell me. 

Q Okay. Is there anything you havent ’ totd us 

i:i;that is relevant to our inquiry? You remember that I read 

I 191 to you what our area is were ’ investigating when you first 

1201came here? 

1211 A Yes, sir. 

Q Is there anything you havent ’ told us that is 

IZirelevant to our inquiry? 

1241 A Nothing I know, no, sir. 

I251 0 Has the President talked to you at all about 

. ‘ . 

Page 32 to Page 37 OlCStarT 
3074 

q SA Bayani Nelvis, 2/4/98 Xu*xc)) 

Page 38 

. : : test,Smg here? 

.-. 

-. A No, sir. 

: .-. Q 

4 testifvrnq here? 

Has Hugh Rodham spoken to you at all about 

._: - 

.-. - A No, sir. 

i ‘ Q Has anybody outside of your attome 

;I : counsels ’ office talked to you about your testrmony i! 

and the 

ere? 

:- A You mean before? 

5: ‘ Q Either before you testified or between the last 

i i 2 : time youve ’ testified and today? 

I::: A I would say when I talk to my boss - remember tha: 

; I;. Lieutenant McCain - 

;.-. 

t-3, 

114‘ 2 -“#lhat I . have ’ subpoena. Then he talk to military 

I : 5: ofice - the main boss. 

en he called me to sea Cheryl Mills. - 

Page 39 

[I: A 

Q 

I would say two,, three minutes. 

Okay. Mr. Nelvrs. sometimes when people testii 

I:iat the Grand Jury 

[ 4 1 time - after the 

- I think I might have told you this last 

t sldidnt ’ think of w 1: 

leave, they remember something that they 

e,n they ,were at the Grand Jury. Do you 

[ 6! undarstan~wh$~mh~~rrg? 

(71 

Q Yoimight remember somethin thats ’ not quite 

I “, 1 consistent with what you said here today. An 8. 

( 1 o; please have your lawyer get the touch wkh me. 

rf you do, 

il3i A Yes: sir. 

i :: i incorrect. 

0 Because we wouldnt ’ want the record to remain 

Do vou understand? .--1 

I161 A Y&s. ‘ sir. 

MR. WISENBERG: -All right. Are there any other 

I :i ;qwstions from any attorney or grand Juror? 

I191 

1201 I!“. R response.& WtSENB RG: Maythewitnessbeexwsad? 

I211 FOREPERSON: Yes ha may. 

1221 MR. WISENBERG: Thank you very much. 

1231 THE WITNESS: Im ’ finished now, sir? 

(241 MR. WISENBERG: You are finished. 

I251 THE WITNESS: When I going to get my tie back? 

Page 40 

MR. WlSENBERG: Well ’ be in touch with your lawyer. 

t s jwas con&ded.)- 

19: . . . . . 

IiOi 

[::: 

[I” 

Il3i 

1141 

[I51 

I161 

111 ’

1181 

I191 

1201 

i2:i 

I221 

123: 

124: 

125: 

I 

- 

OlCStafr 

Page 41 

I?: CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 

[ilj 

;12; 

!13i 

ii4j 

il51 

1161 

(171 

1181 

1191 

1201 

I211 

[221 

I231 

1241 - 

I251 

Elizabeth J. Walker 

Offiaai Reporter 

Page 38 to Page 41 
-- 

3075 

MUlti-PZUC March 12. 1998 

:7:2E3 sT*TES DISTRICZ CCURI 

p11 THE DISTRICT OF CO-ZIMBIA 

--------________~ 

In re: 

GNAHD JURY PRocLL3:“Gs 

-_-_-___-________I 

on saptmber 19. 1991, -*ncinq .t 10:5-l ..m.* terorc: 

SGIMa ~ISENESRG 

PmRx Auls NIRTZH 

"IClmEI. metICK 

A*rociru Independent Counsel 

Otticc of Independent Counsel 

1001 Pcury1vulia *"am., mfthw¶t 

suit* 49q lmxh 

Yashinqron, D.C. 20004 

CONTENTS 

WI-: P&q. 

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Page 3 

PROCEEDINGS 

Whereupon, 

BAYANI BRGX NELVIS 

was called as a witx~~~ and, after having been duly sworn by 

the Foreperson of the Grand Jury. was examined and testified 

as follows: 

EXAMINATION 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Would you state your name for the record? 

A My name is Bayani Braze Nelvis. 

Q And have you testified - you’re the same 

Mr. Nelvis who has testified before in front of this grand 

jury, is that correct? 

A ye&sir. 

q,Andyouareastewardat-the-Whiit~wsc,isthat 

Correct? 

A Yes, Sir. 

Q You remember the rights and responsibilities that 

read to you before when youve ’ comt to the grand jury, do you 

not? 

A Yes, Sir. 

Q Do you have any need for us to repeat them? 

A No, thank you. 

Q Okay. Iremindyoutomakeyouranswers ZlSlOUdaS 

possible so that everybody can bear them in the grand jury 

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room. Is that okay? 

A Yes, Sir. 

Q And to give us not an “ub-huh” or an “tm-t&r” but 

a “yes” or “no” if a question calls for t&it. Do you 

understand? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q If thenhany question that you don’t understand, 

ask us to rephrase it, okay? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q AndyoubavetberighttogotaIktoyourattorney 

if you need to about anything. Do you understand that? 

A Yes, Sir. 

Q And you understand you have to tell us the truth, 

you’re under oath, correct? 

A Yes, sir. 

MR. WISENBERG: Okay. Ms. Wirtb is going to as1 

you some questions today. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q Mr. Nelvis, when you testified previously before 

the grand jury, I believe it was the fti time you 

testified, you were asked to tell the grand jury roughly when 

Monica L.cwinsky came to work in tbt White House and you said, 

and I’m quoting from your gmnd-jury testimony at page 25, 

‘l-be only thing I ranank is around Novanbu when tbcy bad a 

budget crisis at that time.” 

Page 1 --Page 4 

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Can you tell the grand jury why you remember that 

Monica h-inky was working in tbc White House in Novembu 

1995 at the time of tbe budget crisis? Wbat about the budget 

crisis makes you remember her? 

A She started working with the Chief of Staff office 

That’s alI I remember. That’s where I start knowing he. 

Q And I believe you also testified at that fti 

session that you temember the President shaking hands with 

Monica in h4r. Panctta’s office at the time of the budget 

crisis. Is that accurate? 

A Yes. Yes, ma’am. 

Q Okay. Can you tell the grand jury exactly what you 

sawatthattimewklyousawhershakinghandswithtbe 

PrcGht? Wkrewueyou,whcFcwastkRsidentand~ 

was she? 

A I was in the hallway. The office of the Chief of 

Staff you could see it from where I world in tbe pantry and 

there’s a few people out there in the p amgewayalso. m 

the President walks around and when he starts shaking 

peoplt’sbands,Isawbcnkskkeh4onieaLcwinsky’shaodin 

the presence of four or five people. 

Q Okay. Do you know whether the President spoke to 

her at that point? 

A Idon’t mmember. 

Q Did you ever hear from anyone that Monica Lewinsky 

Page6 

deIivered pizza to the President during the budget crisis? 

A Idon’t remember, ma’am. 

Q Did Monica Lewinsky ever tell you that she 

delivered pizza to the President during tL budget crisis7 

A No. 

Q Did anyone else ever tall you that? 

A No, ma’am. 

Q DidyouevusecMonicaIminslqdelivupizzato 

the president during the budget crisis? 

A No, ma’am. 

Q At that time when you saw the President shaking 

bands with people in the Chief of Staffs office, were they 

eating pizzi at that time? 

A Iseethzyareeatingsomething,butIwasnotpart 

ofthatdqartmltandbeingintbemilitaly,IIseclu&d 

inthataltx. ImeanIwasn’ttlxxe. 

MB.WIRTHZ I’mgoingtomarkasBNNo. 11 this 

I diagramoftheWestWingoftheWhiteHousewhichIthink 

P you’ve seen in another form, the same diagnlm, a previous 

) exhibit. This is a new one, okay? 

I (Grand Jury Exhibit No. BN-11 was 

! marked for identification.) 

I MS. WIRTH: I’m just going to ask you to take this 

I ~pcnandmarkwithyourinitialstbespot~youusn 

i standing when you saw the President shake Monica’s hand 

March 12.1998 

1 

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r. 

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THE ~I’IXS$: May I know what room Room 111 is? 

MS. WIRTH: Room 11 I? Do you know whose office was 

located in Room Ill? 

THE WTNJSS: Because the door is this way. 

MS. WLRTH: Whose office is Room 11 l? At that 

time. Do you know? 

THE WlTNESS: I know this side is supposed to be 

Chief of Staff, but it’s just the diagram of the door is 

straight that way, it’s not supposed to be straight that way, 

it’s supposed to be this way. So -- 

MS. WIRTH: Okay. 

THE WITNESS: But anyway, I was standing on this 

side here. 

Ms. LVIRTH: Just put BW for your initials. -You 

marked a B. Put an N as well. Okay. 

BY Ms. WIRTH: 

Q And what is located in Room 108? No, 108. You 

said you were standing near the pantry. 

A Yes. I believe this is - this diagram is not so 

good, but this is probably Stephanopoulos’ office. 

Q Were you standing outside Mr. Stephanopoulos’ 

office? 

A Yes. Around the corner them, ma’am. 

Q Okay. So you were not near the pantry, you were 

Page 1 

A No, I was not inside the pantry. 

Q Okay. And mark with a P, please, where the 

RcsidealtwasflndwitIltvlwinnMoaicawaswirntbcP6dalt 

shookherhand. 

A Right here. Just initial? 

Q Yes. P for P@.lcnt and M for Monica. 

A Okay. 

Q Okay. All right. Andyou’vcmarkcd a spotwhich 

istheentrancetoR~111,whichyoutoldusistbe~f 

of staffs Off&? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. Sotheywereoutintkhalhvaywlxxthe 

shook her hand? 

A Yes. Right outside - right in the door. You 

couldseeitfromwhereIwasstanding. 

Q Okay. ABerheshookherhand,wheredidtbe 

President go? 

A HewentbacktotheOvalOffrce. 

Q Okay. Andwhexe - 

A I’m not sure, but be probably went and talked - he 

weotinsideandtalkedtotbeChiefofStafiandtbenhe~t 

back after that 

Q Okay. Where did Monica go? 

A %estayinhedesk. 

Q Andwherewashzrdesk? - 
3077 

Mull 

1 A 

2 Q 

3 A 

4 

5 Q 

6 9:00. 

7 A 

Yes. 

Page 12 

Which is at about 9:00, if this were a clock. 

Yes. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

If the Oval Office were a clock, this would be at 

Yes. Okay. Yes. I don’t get the 9:00 right away. 

8 I’m not too good. 

9 BY h4S. WIRTH: 

.O Q Did you ever see Monica Lewinsky coming out of that 

I bathroom that you’ve marked BR on that diagram? 

2 A No, ma’am. 

3 Q Did you ever see her going into that bathroom? 

4 A No, ma’am. 

5 Q Do you have any rCaowledge whatsoever that she ever 

6 was in that bathroom? 

7 A No, ma’am. 

8 Q Atanytime,didyoueverseethePxesidentgointc 

9 aroomwhereyouknewthatMonieaLewin*akeadywas 

,o present? 

:l A No, ma’am. 

12 BY MR. WSENBERG: 

3 Q Did you ever see the President go into a room, any 

4 ~1[1z in th: White House whn you thought Monica Lxwinsky 

s was already present? 

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A No, ma’am. 

Page 14 

Q DidyoueverseetheResidentgointoaroomwhero 

you lstet found out Monica Fminsky was already present? 

A No, sir. 

BY MS. WTRTHz 

Q Now, pmiously you told us that you have a pantry, 

correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Andusingthispenagain,canyoumarkwithwe’ve already used P, mark with PA where tk pantry is7 

Okay. ~j~~wa~~~~w~d~pA~~~d 

we’ll know tit PA iS pa&y. 

Okay. Aud, again, you% marked a small area to 

tbeleftofthebathmom Okay. On the diagrarq it’s to the 

left of the bathroom? 

A Yes, ma’am. 

Q Okay. Now, did you ever see Monica Lewiasky come 

out of that pantry? 

A No, ma’am. 

Q Was she ever in that pantry, to your knowledge? 

A No, ma’am. 

Q Do you know Mike McOrath? 

A Yes, ma’am. 

Q And is he a friend of yours? 

A Just a co-worker friend. He’s not a family friend. 

Page” March 12,1998 

Page ISi 

1 Q And was he your supervisor at the UIite House? / 

2 A No. i 

3 Q What was his job at the White House? 

4 A He’s just a worker downstairs in staff mess and 

5 entertained the staff people as a receptionist fie was a 

6 receptionist at that time, to go inside and have a seat, give 

7 amen& 

8 Q Okay. Was he over you in tezms of his rank in the 

9 Navy? 

0 A No, maam_ ’

1 Q WasheintheNavy? 

2 A I~~or~an~in~of~~d~ 

3 serviceandrank.. 

4 Q What rank did he hold? 

5 A He was promoted also to E-9. That’s what I am 

6 right now. And after one year he mtired. 

7 Q Okay. And when he was promo&I to an E-9, were you 

8 also an E-9? 

9 A I was E-9 ahead of him already. 

0 Q Okay. But at some point, you had tfr same rank. 

1 A Yes. 

2 Q All right. When you worked at the White House with 

3 Mr.M~didyouhavcoccasiontospeaktohimattimes? 

4 A Oncei.nawhile,yes. Icornedownandhaveacup 

s of coffee and talk to everybody there. We have about ? 

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Page lo 

people there, 30, something like that. 

Q You were friendly with him? 

A Just a friend, yes. Just a co-worker friend. Just 

totally business and just work. 

Q Okny. Now,didyoueverseeMonieaI&nskycorne 

~tof~~~~~~~~~ap~~~, 

upset, shaky, in SLck? 

A No. 

Q DidyoueverseeMonicaDzwimkyc<mntoutofany 

roominfh:WhiteHousewithherhairmusxd,herlipst.ick 

smear&, her clothes askew, any of those things? 

A No, ma’am. 

Q Did you evet fmd lipstick-stained towels or 

tissueslmywhemintheareaoftheOvaloffict? 

A No, ma’am. 

Q Did you eyer fmd hpstick-stamed tow& or 

tissues in the Pmsident’s bathroom? 

A No, maam. ’

Q An towek kept in the President’s bathroom? 

A Towels? 

Q Yes, I 

A Thy have just a small baa towel only. 

Q Ahandtowel? 

A Yes, a hand towel. 

Q Okay. Mom than one or just one? 

Page 13 - Pa& 16 
3078 

Mnlti-Pam= l-u Marrh 13 1OQQ *.a-.. 1 y6” *-=-vu I&, 1;110 

Page 17 Page 1’ 

1 A A couple hand towels. 1 evening in, I think, November or December 1995, not 1% 

2 Q Are there tissues in the President’s bathroom? 2 after Monica had been promoted from intern to the Legislat;~ 

3 A Tissues? Like Kleenex that we use? 3 Affairs Offlee inside the White House. It was about 6:30 

4 Q Yes. 4 after most of the staff had gone home. Nelvis’ regular post 

5 A Yes, ma’am., 5 was the pantry. If the President was in the Oval, Nelvis was 

6 Q Okay. Are towels kept anywhere else in the Oval 6 intbepantry. Suddenlyhecamerunninguptomedo~ 

7 complex besides the bathroom? Are there towels in the dining 7 in tlx mess, it’s just underneath the Oval Office, and he was 

8 room? 8 clearly in some kind of shock_ He took me aside and told M 

9 A In the drawer. We get stocks of towels in the 9 thatMonicahadjustcomeoutofthestudywithherhairal1 

0 drawer. 10 messedup,berlipsticksnearedandshewasallshakyandin 

1 Q Are the= tissups kept in the study? 11 shock.“’ 

2 A They have also some - like Kleenex you say? 12 If Mr. McGrath told that to this publication, is 

3 Q Yes. 13 thattrue? 

4 A In the table, yes. 14 A That’s not trUe. 

5 Q In the study? 15 -BY MR. WISENBERG: 

6 A In the study. 16 Q IsanyofittIue? 

7 Q Did you ever find lipstick-stained towels in the 17 A There’s nothing true in that magazine. 

8 Study? 18 BY Ms. WIRTHz 

9 A No, ma’am. 19 Q And continuing, “‘They were pretty good friends, 

0 Q Did you ever find lipstick-stained towels in the 20 Nelvis and Monica, but I don’t think she even said anything 

1 dining room? 21 to him. She just left. And when she left, be went into tbe 

2 A No, ma’am. 22 study and found towels smeared with lipstick on tbc floor. I 

3 BY MR. WISENBERG: 23 knowthereportsnowaretbattheywemtissuesandthattbey 

4 Q Did you ever find lipstick-stained anything in the 24 were stained with something else. but be told me ‘towels’ 

5 oval office, in the White House? 25 thatdayandbedidn’tmentiooanythingotberthanlipsti~‘” 

Page 18 Page 2( 

1 A No, sir. 1 xsthattnle? 

2 Q ~anythingthatwasstaiaedred? Notjustatowel 2 A That’s not true. 

3 oratissue,anything&3&dredifltbeOValOfIiCX&iIlthe 3 Q “‘Hejusttoldmehe~thzmallup. Itwas 

4 diningroom&yourpantry,intbebathroom,inthestudy? 4 obviou.stbatbeknewwhat~tonoQ. Hedidn’tbaveto 

5 A No, sir. 5 speUitoutforme. Hewaschrlyupsetbyitandhemade 

6 BY MS. WIRTH: 6 itclcarthatMonicaseemedlikc&ewasshockedandrcally 

7 Q Areyoufamiliarwithasto~thatcameoutina 7 upset, too.“’ = 

8 tabloid publication recently about Mr. McGrath? 8 Did you ever have any ctmvezsath whatsoeva wiat 

9 A Yes. 9 Mr. McGrath about Monica Lewinsky? 

0 Q AU right. And I’m going to re!ad a portion to you 10 A Never. 

1 ofthisandI’11stopfromtimetotimeandaskyousome 11 Q You never discussed her with Mr. McGrath? 

2 questions, okay? Yes? 12 A No. 

3 A Yes. 13 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

4 Q AlI right. “McGrathal~otalkedabout how another 14 Q when you say it’s not true, you mean the various 

5 White House steward, Bayani Nelvis, told him about seeing 15 ~fromthearticleMs.Wirthhasreadtoyou,doyou 

6 M&X L&n&y Q~YZBC from a private session with aton in 16 ~numbaonc,youncvrrtoldMr.McGrathtbatandnrrmba 

7 tbe~valofficestudyandtbcahadtocleanupthemesstbey 17 two,thosethingsthathe’ssayingneverhappened? 

8 left bebind Nelvis tells his boss that the young ex-intern, 18 A I never talked to McGrath about anything about 

9 tbenjust22,was’shaky,‘andsatmedtobe’inshock’when 19 that. 

,O sheemergedfromtbestudywithhetbairmussed,berlipstick 20 Q And these things that he’s saying happened never 

1 smeared and her clothes askew.” 21 happened to your knowledge? 

2 If Mr. McGrath told that to this tabloid, was that 22 A Never happened to my @owledge. 

3 trW? 23 Q And nobody told you that they happened? 

4 A No, it’s not. It’s untrue. 24 A What do you mean? 

5 Q McGrath told the publication, “‘It was a weekday 25 Q Well, you said to your knowledge they never 

Paoe 17 - fire ZO’ 
3079 

Multi-Pagem 

Page 21 

1 happened. Did anybody tell you that anything like that 

2 happened? 

3 A Nothing happened. I mean, it never -- I mean -- 

4 Q That isn’t the question. The first question is 

5 you’ve told us you never saw anything like that., correct’ 

6 A I never saw anything like that. 

7 Q Like the magazine stuff that Ms. Wirth just read tc 

8 you. You never saw anything like that, correct? 

9 A No. 

10 Q You never told Mr. McGrath about it, correct? 

11 A I never talked to McGrath anything about that. 

12 Q Now my question is did anybody tell you anythinl 

.3 like what Ms. Wirth read about what they had seen? 

,4 A No. 

,5 Q As an example, as just one example, Glen Mays, your 

.6 colleague who is a fellow steward upstairs in the pantry with 

7 you, eorrezt? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q He never told you anything anywhere like what’s in 

!0 that article? 

!I A No. 

!2 MR. WISENBERG: Sony. Pardon me. 

!3 MS. WIRTH: That’s okay. 

!4 BY MS. WIRlTIz 

1 Monica out to dinner, but he never told his colleagues 

2 whether the two discussed that night in the study.“’ 

3 Did you ever take Monica out to dinner and discuss 

4 the recovery of lipstick-stained towels or tissues from the 

? 5 Oval Office area? 

6 A The last time that I-- my testimony about when I 

3 7 took -- we ate dinner is her birthday of 1997. 

8 Q That wasn’t the question. The question was did you 

9 ever take Monica Lcwinsky out to dinner and discuss with 

10 her-- 

11 A No. 

!I 12 Q -- the fact that you recovered stained towels or 

13 tissuesorstainedanythingfromanareaintheOvalOffice 

14 complex - 

15 A Nb, ma’am. 

16 Q - whether it’s the dining room, the study or the 

17 bathroom. 

18 A No, ma’am. 

19 Q “‘And then a few months,‘” I’m reading again, “‘And 

20 tbenafewmonthslater,heomeandtoldusshewasbeing 

21 moved out of the White House and over to the Pentagon. You 

22 got to wonder why,’ McGrath says.” 

23 Did you ever tell Mr. McGratb that Monica Lewinsky 

24 hadlefttbeWhiteHouseandu9stn,~-wo~kittg~-ruK! 

25 was working in the Pentagon? 

Page 2k 

1 A No, ma’am. 

2 Q You never told him that? 

3 A Never told him. 

4 Q Did you ever tell Mr. McGrath that she was fired 

5 fromtheWhiteHouseandshewasnoIongerthere? 

6 A No, ma’am. 

7 Q Do you kno; Lewis Fox? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q whoishe? 

1 0 A Uniform division Secret service. 

1 1 Q Okay. AndbeworkedintbeWbiteHouseaswell? 

I 2 A Yes. Yes,ma’am. 

1 3 Q And you were friendly with him? 

1 4 A Justtalkingfriendonly,ifhe’sinthepost. 

1 5 Q Okay. SoyoucbattedwitbbimintbeVVbiteHouse. 

1 6 A Yes. 

1 7 Q WhenhewasOnhiSpost. 

1 8 AUh-huh. 

1 9 Q And do you recall when Mr. Fox, roughly when 

2 10 Mr. Fox worked in the White House? Roughly wItat period ol 

2 !Itime? 

2 12 A He’s like temporarily assigned in front of the Ov 

2 

2 

2 L 

!5 Q I’m going to continue to read “‘Nelvis kind of 

Page 22 

1 took me in confidence. We’d known each other for years. 

2 Ithinkheneededtogetitoffhischest Helikedher 

3 andbewaawotiedaboutber. Ofcourse,noneofusknew 

4 thatitwasgoingtotumintothis. Wedidn’tknowwhatto 

5 do. It’s not Iike there’s someone to report the President 

6 to. ItbinkNelvismaybavetoldsomeSecretServiceguys. 

7 I never told anyone.“’ 

8 Mr. Nelvis, did you ever discuss with anyone from 

9 theSecretServi~MonicaLewi.ns~? 

0 A No. 

1 Q Did you ever tell anybody from the Secret Service 

2 about an incident involving lipstick-stained towels, tissues 

3 OranykindofstainedittmrecoveredfromtheOvalOfftce 

4 area? 

5 A No, ma’am. 

6 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

7 Q You never talked with anybody from the Secret 

8 Service about Monica Lewinsky at all? 

9 A No. 

0 BY MS. WIRTH: 

1 Q Okay. “‘The point is that Monica really didn’t 

2 have any business up in that area Even if she’s working 

3 Legislative Affairs, she didn’t belong there. That and the 

4 residence are the most private parts of the white House. Not 

5 even the Secret Service go in there. Soon after, Nelvis took 

March 12, 1998 

Page 23 

3 Office, only like a part-time. He have to fill in only, so 

14 I’d only see him once in a while. 

IS Q What years did he work in the White House? 

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A 1 remember he left early part of 1997. 

Q All right But prior to that, he worked in the 

White House? 

A I believe it’s the whole 20 years. 

Q Okay. !30 2q years prior to 1997. 

A hh-hmm. 

Q Yes? 

A Ye% 

Q Okay. Did you ever ask Lewis Fox if Monica 

LhnskybdbazuinthcWhiteHouscwsparticularwgkard? 

A No, ma’am. 

Q Did you ever discuss Monica Lewin&y with Mr. Fox? 

A No, ma’am. 

Q Did you ever ask Mr. Fox if he had worked a 

particular d and was Monica Lmviusky in the White House 

that weekend? 

A No, ma’am. 

Q Did Mr. Fox ever tell you that he didn’t see her 

butthathehadheardthatshehadbeenthereoverthe 

weekend? 

A No, ma’am. 

Q Did you ever respond “I thought so” when Mr. Fox 

edvisedyoutbatMonicaLcwinskyhadbecaiotbcWhitcHoust 

over the weekend or that he had heard so? 

A No, ma’am. 

BY h4R. WISENBERG: 

Page 26 

Q There~~vera~WhenyOU~~~~med 

aboutWzthingthatyousaweitbC!rinthepantry,tbedining 

XKn$tbeOvalOfTi~thestudy,thebatlWn&thehallway 

~thestudyandthebathroom,therewasneveratime 

wkayau-andutyandyouwert -aboutJomthing 

yousawinoneofthoseroomsandsaidtoIzwisFoxatsome 

pointiIltimeaftezyousawsometh&inthoscroon&said, 

“Do you know if MoniW” something to this effect, “Do you 

knowifMonicawasberethi.spastweekend?” Nothinglike 

thateverhappened? 

A No. 

Q Meaning no, nothing like that ever happened? 

A Nothing like that ever happened 

Q AU right. Did you say anything like that to any 

other secret service agent, uniformed or plainclothes? 

A No, sir. 

Q Aadyw~wthatwbcn~askourqutstionswhcnwc 

say !Jecret Sea-vie, wc mean plainclothes and uniformed, you 

understand that? 

A Thatisright. 

MR. WISENBERG: Fine. 

BY hS. WIRTH: 

Q The&s a telephone in the pantry, is that correct? 

A Yes, ma’am. 

Page 2’ 

1 Q The pantry where you worked? And did Monica 

2 Lewinsky ever call you on that phone in the pantry? 

3 A YeS,ma'~. 

4 Q And did you ever tell Mr. Fox that she called you 

s on the phone in the pantry? 

6 A No. 

7 Q Did you ever tell him that she was in the habit of 

8 telephoning you in the pantry? 

9 A No. 

0 Q Did Monica Lewinsky ever call you while you were 

1 working in the White House to ask you if the President was il 

2 the White House? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Can you tell us about that? 

5 A --She called said, hi, talked to me fmt, “How you 

6 been doing? How’s your boss? Is your boss there?” I say, 

7 “Yes.” She’ll be leaving, probably go to Marriott later on, 

8 things like that. 

9 Q where was she calling from, if you know? 

0 A Pentagon. 

1 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

2 Q When she would call and get that information from 

3 you, you would tell her if the President was there, let’s 

4 say, would she ever appear to be angry at that news? 

5 A say again? 

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Q Well, when she would call and ask where the 

Residentwasorifbewastbereandyouwouldtellherontheoccasionsthatyoutoldherhewasthere,wouldsbe 

ever get upset or angry about that information? 

A No, I never noticed anything like that 

Q Didshecversaytoyou”BettyCurriejusttoldme 

he’s not there? Did she ever say that to you? 

A No, sir. 

BY MS. WlRTHz 

Q Abouthowmanytimesclidshecallandaskwhether 

tbePnzsidentwas--wberehewasorwhetherhewasinthe 

White House? 

A Iwou.ldsayshewouldgivemeacaIlthreetimesa 

month. 

Q And ask that question? 

A Maybe once - not that question, just to say ‘Hi, 

how are you?” We just talk friendly talk. 

Q But the question was approximately how many times 

did Monica Lewin&y caIl you on the telephone while you 

~workingattbewhiteHouseandaEkyouwbetberthe 

President’ was in the White House or ask you where the 

President was? 

A I would say four or five times. I don’t remember, 

but just conversation, tall&g, asking me “How’s your boss?” 

You know, doing like that. 

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Q So four or five times, Monica Lewinsky would call 

you from outside the White House, she would call you while 

you were working in tbe White House and ask you whether Ibe 

President was there? Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Four or five times total or a month? 

A I cannot recall. Sometimes -wetalk,butwe 

uever mention about the President, wz just talk about --just 

friendly talk. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q But you xmember four - excuse me. Did you want 

to finish your answer? 

A No, go ahead. 

Q But you rememh four or five times when Monica 

Lewiusky called you from outside the white House inquiring 

about whether the President was there. Is that correct? 

A No. No. 

Q Well, you just testified - 

A Yes. I mean, it’s talking about - specifically, 

she don’t ask me about “Is the Pn&ient there?” Not like 

that_ I mean, first we have to say “Hi, how are you? How’s 

your boss?” She always just say “Is your boss around?” 

“Yes.” “You going to the trip?” “Yes, I’m going to go to 

Multi-Prig? March 12, 1998 

I Page 3 1 

1 youhow of? 

2 A No, ma’am. 

3 MR. WlSEhBERG: ’ li%at do you mean by Oval Office 

4 area? Do you mean Oval Office, study, dining room? 

5 Ms.wlRTH: Yes. 

6 BY W. WISENBERG: 

7 Q Do you understand the question? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q And your answer is the same? 

1 0 A Yes. No. 

1 1 Q Your answer is you haven’t seen such a thing? 

1 2 A I haven’t seen anything. Yes. And I don’t -- I 

1 3 never - anything bcre is never concentrate anything about 

1 4 whatever is in tlzre. My job is absolutely justgo inside, 

1 5 servearidgoout 

1 6 Q I didn’t hear what you said. You said you never 

1 7 *concentrate? 

1 8 A I mean I never do any - like those rooms are very 

1 9 private rooms. I am not allowed to hang around unless only 

2 o withservice. IfbecaUmeandueedsomedriuk,tbenIgo 

2 1 inside. 

2 2 Q when you say “those rooms are very private rooms,” 

2 3 you mean the azudy? 

2 4 A TheStt!t$. ‘

2 5 Q ThedbiIgrOOXi? 

Page 3‘ 

The dining. And the Oval Office. 

And the Oval Off& 

Yes. 

And obviously the bathroom. 

Yes. 

the trip for about a week. I’m going to New York, 

Page 30 

California” ThbJgshketllat. !&ne&easbewillsay,“Oh, 

I heard in the news he’s going to Ohio.” Something like 

that. That sort of thing. 

Q Areyoutellingusthatshewouldroutinelyaskyou 

“Is your boss around?“ Is that right? 

A Sometimes. NotallthetimewhenwetaIk 

Q Well,abouthowmanytimes,ifyoucauteUus,did 

sbeaskyouthatquestifm? orhowoftcn,ifyoucantellua? 

A b@&eOnCecV~tWO~Or~ifsbe~~ 

aboutfivetimesamonth,mavbesbeoouldaskmeacouple 

times from that. I cannot really - I don’t know. 

Q Now, during any conversations that you had with 

Monica Lewklq, did you ever tell her that the President 

kept gifts under the desk in his study? 

A No, ma’am. 

Q Does the President keep gifts under his desk in the 

study? 

A No, ma’am. 

Q He does not keep gifts under the desk in his study? 

A I don’t see any of them. No, ma’am. Usually I 

don’t have a business to go around and look for any personaI 

thingofthel’resident. Myjobisjusttobethereonlyif 

hecallme. 

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Q Does the Resident keep a bag of gifts or a 

container with gifts anywhere in the Oval Office area that 

, MR. WISENBERG: okay. 

BY Ms. WlX6Hz 

DidMouicaIewin&yevertellyoutbatsbegavetbz 

, Residentafigureofafrogforagift? 

11 A No, ma’am. 

1 Q bes the President in fact collect frogs? 

1: A I never notice anything like that 

1: Q You’ve nexr noticed that the President collects 

18 figures of frogs? 

1: A No. 

11 Q Did you ewx tell Monica Lewinsky that the 

1’ President kept the frog that she gave him on his desk? 

I1 A No, ma’am. 

’ l! Q I’m going to show you au item marked as Grand Jury 

2f Exhibit ER-EN-I and ask you -- it’s a mug. Have you evcx 

2. sc333 it before? 

2: A No, ma’am 

2: 

2d 

21 

Q The mug is marked Santa Monica and Starbucks. 

You’ve never seen this mug anywhere in the President’s I offvx, w&her it’s the study, the pauuy. the dining room I 

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or the Oval Office itself? 

A No, ma’am. 

Q Did Monica Lewinsky ever tell you that she gave the 

President a mug with the words Santa Monica on it? 

A No, maam. ’

Q Did you ever tell hlonica Lewinsky that you had m 

a mug with the words Santa Monica among the Presidents ’

things in the Oval Office area? 

A No, ma’am. 

Q Did you ever tell Monica that you had seen this mug 

andthatyouthoughtthatithadbeenagiftfromher? 

A No, maam. ’

Q Youve ’ testified that you often stayed in the 

pantrywheuyouwerewaitingontheF+esidentifbeneeded 

anything from you. Is that correct? 

A Yes, maam. ’

Q That was the place where you hung out, right? 

A Yes, ma’am. 

Q Okay. Did the President ever come to the pantry 

and ask you to leave the pantry? 

A No, maam. ’

Q Did the President ever come into the dining room 

and ask you to leave the dining room? 

A No, maam. ’

Q Did the President ever come to the study and ask 

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Page 34 

you to leave the study? 

A No, maam. ’

Q Did the President evex ask you to leave the Oval 

Office wh?n you were in the%? 

A No, maam. ’

BY MR. WWZNBERG: 

Q Didheeveraskyoutoleavetheamaofyourpost, 

thealeayou\knereusdlyinupthere,tbepantryarea,~ 

you’ve testified you stayed when the President was in tk 

Oval Office, PIE there any circumstances he told or asked you 

to leave? 

A No, maam. ’ No, sir. 

Q You never recall an occasion of any kind when he 

did that? 

A No, sir. 

Q YounevertccaUanoccasiot~whe%becameintothe 

pantryandhadaladywithhimorinhispresenceoraround 

him and asked you to leave? 

A No, sir. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q Do you know Kathleen Willey? 

A No, maam. ’ I don’t know lxx. 

Q Did the President ever ask you to stay in the 

pantry for a period of tima with the door closed? 

A No, ma’am. 

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Q Did he ever ask you to remain in the pantry? 

A No. 

Q did anybody else who worked at the white House ever 

tell you to stay in the pantry? 

A No. 

Q Did the President ever tell you not to enter a 

particular area like the pantry or the study or the dining 

room or the Oval Office itself? 

A No. 

BY MR. WI!XNBERG: 

Q Did anybody other than the President come into your 

area and tell you to leave? 

A No, sir. 

BY MS. IVIRTK: 

Q- Did you ever see Betty Currie and the President gc 3’ 

intotbeoValOffiaorthediningroomorthestudyorthat 

hallway leading to the study when tbcy wen in the company of 

another woman? Ektty, the Pmidmt and another woman. Did 

you ever see that happen? 

A No, ma’am 

Q Okay. I believe you testified previously that you 

sometimes travel with the President? Is that correct? 

A Yes, ma’am. 

Q About how often does that hap-pen in the average ! 

year? 

Page 36 

1 A A year, maybe six, seven times, eight times, you 

2 know. I never really log in my traveling, but I travel. 

3 Travel a lot. 

4 Q We& for example, in 1997, last year, can you tell 

5 us approximately how many times you traveled with the 

6 hkht? 

7 A I would s”ay maybe ten times. 

8 Q Okay. Can you till the grand jury what trips you 

9 remember that you took with the President in 1997? 

0 A I travel in New York. I travel in Argentina I 

1 travel in Florida. It’s a lot of places. I just want to 

2 make sure I don’t make a mistake about the places. It’s a 

3 lot of places. 

4 Q Do you ever go on vacation with the President? 

5 A Yes,ma’am. Yes. IwasinMartha’sVinqardalso 

6 last year. Month of August. 

7 Q 

8 A 

9 Q 

:O A 

:l Q 

How long were you in Martha’s Vineyard? 

I was there for ten days. 

And how long was the President there? 

I believe the President was there for three weeks. 

Okay. And were you there for the first part of the 

12 trip or the last part of the Pres@ent’s trip? 

13 A Iwasthereinthafirstpartofthetrip. 

14 Q And who covered the last part? 

!5 A Glen Mays covered the last part. 

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Q And where did the President stay when he went to 

Martha’s Vineyard? 

A My memory is not so good. He stayed in one of -- a 

family that volunteered to use their house, but I don’t 

remember what’s the name. 

Did you ever go to that house? 

Yes, ma’am. 

And you don’t remember whose house it was? 

No, I don’t remember the name of it. 

Had you ever been there previously in a prior trip’ 

No, ma’am. 

where did you stay? 

Istayedin-wercntahouse. Jt’saboutamile 

and a half away from the residence. 

Q Doyou remember what town you were in? 

A No, ma’am. I forget about the town. 

Q Okay. When you say “WC” rented a house, who else 

stayed there? 

A Are you talking the house that the President stayed 

in? 

Q No, you said “we” rented a house about a mile and a 

half away from the President’s house. Who else stayed with 

3 you? 

4 A I have the valet guy, Bautista, and - the name is 

5 Ader, the last name is Ader, Daniel Ader. 

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Q how do you spell the last name? 

A A-d-e-r. And one is Hutchinson, I think it’s Scott 

Hutchinson. 

Q whoarethey? 

A ThoseatesecondclasspetlyofficerintheNavy 

thatworkinthestaffmess,weuseitandwebringtothe 

trip. 

Q Now, the house that you rented, was it on the same 

property as the house where the President stayed? 

A No, it’s about a mile and a half away from the 

residence. 

Q Doyou &member -- you said you don’t remember what 

towmyouwacin,doyou xrmcdcx what part of th island you 

were in? 

A I bow it’s Martha’s Vineyard island., but -- 

Q Doyou -berwhetheryouwereintbeno~the 

SOUth,the~theweSt? 

A No, ma’am. I can’t. 

Q Do you know whose house it was? 

A No, ma’am. 

Q Was it like a vacation home? 

A It’s owned by - I think our office is the one who 

rented it from the real estate agent, it’s just for rent. 

Q You said that you also went up to the house where 

the President was, cornet? 

March 12, 1998 

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Page 39 

Where he stayed. And you served there? 

No, ma’am. 

Did you work there? 

We worked only on the weekdays, if they stayed 

we never go there. The only time wc go there is when 

they go out for dinner, to which there always go out for 

dinner, and then wc go inside the house, we touch up and 

clean up and then we leave. 

Q And what did you do during the week when they were 

in the house that they were staying in? This is the 

President and First Lady. What did you do? 

A What I do is I - when he played golf, we have to 

go and go with tbc President for golf. Assist the President. 

Q I-Gw do you assist the President? 

A O~~justmakesurewehaveacoolerofwaterand 

sodas, things like that. We stay in the club house. 

Q WhoservedmealsinthchousewherethePresidcnt 

stayed when he stayed there? 

A Themselves. 

Q You never assisted? 

A No. 

Q WereyouexrinthehousewfierethePresident 

stayed when the President was there? 

A On that part of trip, like vacation, usually the 

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Mrs. and Chelsea was there, too, so they want to be left 

alone and they don’t want to lx disturbed, 

Q Well, the question was were you ever in the house 

wlxretbePresidentstayedwbenthePnzsidentwastber&? 

A No. 

Q Never? 

A Never. 

Q Thehousethatyoustayedin,didithavea 

telephone? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. And did you use that telephone to make phone 

calls? 

A Yes. 

Q And did you call home on that phone? You have 

family here, right? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you call home on that phone? 

A Yes. 

Q DidyouevcrcallMonica~whileyou~or 

Martha’s Vineyard? 

A I don’t know, ma’am. I cannot recall if I called 

her. All I know is I called my family. I never recall 

calling her. 

Q You don’t know whether you called Monica Lewinsky 

from Martha’s Vineyard? 

Page 37 - Page 40 
3084 

Page 41 

1 A Yes. No. 

2 Q You don’t know? That’s your testimony? 

3 A No, I don’t think I called her. 

4 Q Did you ever call Monica Izwinsky on the telephone 

5 from Martha’s Vineyard and tell her that the President and 

6 the First Lady mzre fighting, not getting along? 

7 A Oh, no. 

8 Q Did you ever call Monica I&win&y from Martha’s 

9 Vineyard and tell her that the First Lady was going to 

D Princess Diana’s funeral in London? 

1 A No. 

2 Q Did you evet tell Monica Lewinsky ~a the telephone 

3 from Martha’s Vi&yard that she should come up to Martha’s 

4 Vineyard because the First Lady was leaving? 

5 A No. WbmtheFirstLadydied,Iamalnzadyhome. 

6 I wasn’t them any more. 

I Q Princess Diana? 

8 A Princess Diana. 

9 Q You had aheady left? 

D A I aheady left. 

1 Q DidyouevercallMonicaLewinskyandtellherthat 

2 she should come up to Martha’s Viid and stay with you? 

3 A No. 

4 Q If Monica Lcwinsky told anyone that you caBed her 

5 from Martha’s Vineyard and told her that the President and 

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, 

the last time that you spoke to Monica Lewinsky and you 

testified that that was on January 8th. Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. This answering machine tape that you just 

listened to, do you know whether those messages were left 

before or after January 8th? 

A When the last time I testimony about -- the last 

time I talked to her is when I leave a message in the 

answering machine and then she called me back. 

MR. WISENBERG: So this is not -- 

Do you mind if I ask a few questions? 

MS. WIRTH: No, go ahead 

BY h4R. WJSENBERG: 

Q These things we’ve heard here today, I want to talk 

about these because in these she’s not talking to you, it’s 

&st you leaving a message, correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And did she ever r&urn these messages? 

A Yes. Yes, sir. 

Q Okay. Does that mean that these messages - does 

that mean that tlxse messages that you left would have been 

before your last conversation with her? 

A YeS. 

Q And why do you say that? 

A As I told you before, when I first appeared here, 

Page 42 

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theI+stLadywerefightin&thatthePiiLadywasleaving 

togotoLwdontotbefuneralandthatsbeshouldcomeand 

stay with you, that wouhin’t be true? 

A No, it’s not true at a. 

MS. WIRTH: I have Grand Jury Exhibit =-ML-I which 

is a tape. I’m just going to ask you to listen to this tape. 

It’s a tape of an answerhgmachine. 

(The audiotape was played.) 

MR. WISENBERG: Pardon me a minute. We had a 

lalock. 

(Interruption to proceedings.) 

MR. WISENBERG: Let the mcord reflect that 

Mr. Mike Etnmick of our office has entered the grand jury 

room. 

BY Ms. WlRTH: 

Q h4r. Nelvis, you just l&erred to a tape of what 

appearstObetw0 answeringmachinemessagesleRbyyou,is 

that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q You wognize your voice? 

A Yes, ma’am. 

Q And are those messages that you left for Monica 

Lewinsky? 

A I left, yes. 

Q The first time you testified, I asked you when was 

March 12, 1998 

Page 43 

Page 44 

thatIwasontheway,Iwanttogivethegifttoherand 

stop by to see her right in front of her apartment. 

Q Right You’ve told us about that. 

A Yes. 

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Q Idon’twantyoutorepeatthatunlessyouA Andthenshemturnedmyc.aUandthat’sdElast 

timeIta.lked~her,onthatday. 

Q Okay. But you didn’t try at a later .date to try to 

reach her unsuccessfully at a later date? 

A No, sir. 

Q Okay. Could you bc off a little bit on your dates? 

Could it maybe not have been January Sth, the last time you 

talkedtober? Couldithavebeenmaybeaweckortendays 

later? 

A No, sir. The only time - I probably made a 

mist&ewben1saidmaybethe8th,buttbat’sthedatewbrnI 

calledher. ThelasttimethatItalkedtoher. 

Q Okay. You said you probably made a mistake w-hen 

you said the 8th What do you mean? What makes you think 

you ma& a mistake? 

A I don’t know. What date is this when I make the 

messages? 

MR WISENBERG: Let me play the previous message 

from this tape. 

MS. WIRTH: This is the message prior to your 

Page 41 - Eze 44 
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Page 4: i 

March 12, 1998 

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1 trytocallherafterthe9th. 

2 A No, sir. No. 

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message. 

THE LVnXESS: I called twice and those are the same 

date. 

MS. WJRTH: Okay. He’s going to play the message 

before yours. 

MR. WKENBERG: 'Ihis is before your message on the 

tape. It might be a couple of messages before. 

(The audiotape was played.) 

MR. WISENBERG: rll rewind it just a little so 

we’ll get -- we’re going to hear both the tape, what the 

answering machine says, the time it is, and then you’re going 

to hear what the caller says. 

THE WITNESS: Did they say the date in that? 

(The audiotape was played.) 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Okay. You beard that tape that we just played, 

correct? 

A Yes. 

Q So assumiug that nobody has xnesxd with that tape, 

that tape came straight off the answering machine, number 

one, did you bear that the times listed by the answering 

ma&&. aren’t always the times the people wa-e caUing? Did 

you figure that out from listening? 

A I figured out that 

Q Okay. As an example, I think one of your calls it 

Page 46 

said was 12:08 a.m. I take it you didn’t call her at eight 

minutes after midnight? 

A No, it was - that was noontime. 

Q Thepersonwhowasthecallerjustbeforeyouon 

the tape says “It’s l’hurs&y, Januaty 15th 12 noon.” Did 

you hear that? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. So assuming again that no one has fooled 

with the tape, that this tape came right off the answering 

machineorwastapedfrumtheansweringmaebinetape,this 

would indicate that your call came after - would seem to 

indicate that your call would have to be after noon on the 

15th, is that correct? 

A Not on the 15th. 

Q Okay. Not on the 15th necessarily, but it would 

llavcbeenafterintime. 

A Iknowit'SgOingtobe~that-I~ber 

it’sgoingtobeontheweek--the7thand8thbecausethe 

last- rernernberItoldyouthatItaIkedtohzrwhenI 

arrived from Viin Islands the 5th and then she said, “Well, 

I’ll see you l’hursday” and I believe it’s 7hursday or either 

We&es&y but on that we&, from the 5th to that week I’m 

going to see her in a couple of days just to give that gift. 

Not after the 9th or the 15th. 

Q All right. So your testimony is you didn’t even 

3 Q No, you didn’t try to call her after the 9th? 

4 A 1 did not. I did not call her. 

5 Q After the 9th correct? 

6 A Yes, sir. 

7 Q Did not even try to call her, correct? 

8 A No, sir. 

9 Q You’ll notice that on the tape and according to the 

,0 armwing machine time it’s only a few minutes after your 

.1 lastcall,younoticethattherewasa011fromsomebodywho 

2 identified herself as Betty. Did you hear that? 

3 A 

4 Q 

5 A 

6 Q 

7 A 

S Q 

9 A 

!O Q 

!I A 

!2 Q 

YCS. 

I5 that person’s voice familiar to you? 

1 cannot recognize so much on the tape 

Okay. Do you know who Betty Currie is? 

I know her. 

Do you think that could have been Betty Currie? 

I cannot give you any good answer for that. 

You just don’t know her voice well enough? 

Not on the tape. I never - 

Okay. Was your call to Monica Lewiusky related in 

:3 any way to Betty Currie? 

:4 A No, sir. It’s just strictly just togivethe gift 

:5 to her. 

Page 4b 

1 Q Okay. Betty Cunie didn’t ask you to call, to try 

2 to get in touch with Monica Lewinsky? 

3 A No, sir. 

4 Q Nooneaskedyoutotrytogetintouchwithh4onica 

SLewinskyl 

6 A No, sir. 

7 Q This strictl$had to do with you giving Monica 

8 Lewinse her present that you owed her, is that right? 

9 A yes, sir. 

0 BY MS. WIRTH: 

1 Q I have a couple of questions. There are two phone 

2 messages, correct? 

3 A Yes, sir. Yes, ma’am. 

4 Q AndwhemwereyouwhenyoumaclethefirstcaU? 

5 A Both I was on a celhtlar phone. 

6 Q For bothcalls? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q Did you notice when you listened to the calls that 

9 the second one sounds like there’s a lot of backgrwnd noise? 

0 A I was driving. 

I Q You were driving? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q And where were you when you made the fvst call? 

4 A I was right on Indian Head Highway and I’m planning 

5 to stop by to Boiling Air Force Base exchanae. 

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So when you ma& both calls you were in tbe car? 

Yes. 

Is this a car phone or a celhtlar phone? 

No, it’s a cellular phone. 

Is it your personal cellular phone? 

Yes. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

What’s that number? 

It’s.. 

BY MS. WIRTHz 

_? 

m? 

YeS. 

And that’s your own personal ceil phone? 

Yes. 

what company do you have it with? 

Sprint. 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Do you have an extension at the White House if 

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Page 51 

I Q That’s a direct line to call you in the pantry? 

2 A Yes. 

3 BY MR. WISErUBERG: 

4 Q Is there a line in the mess that you can be reached 

5 at? When you take calls, you’re not in the pantry area, 

6 you’redownintbeWhitcHousemcssintheba.wxm 5 is h-e. 

7 a line if sornehody wanted to call you that they would call 

8 you down there? 

9 A Yes. 

IO Q All right. What is that? 

II A It’s12 BY prls. WIRTH: 

13 Q And what is your l-tome phone number, please? 

14 A It’sIS Q And other than your home phone, your cell phone and 

I6 thephoneinthepantryorthephoneinthemess,arethem 

17 any other telephones that you use? 

I8 A Our main office, just in case. It’sI9 Q And where is that located, that phone? 

10 A It’s in Room 404 in the Old Executive Building. 

11 Q Okay. AlI right Andontbetapewhenyousaid 

12 “Pagemeassoonasyoucan,assoonasyougetbackhome,at 

13 I_ Andtbenyougavc,Igucss,apagcxnumbcrof 

24 1. Is that your personal pager? 

15 A No,ma’am. This isagovemmen t White House issue. 

Page 52 

1 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

2 Q Sotbe, islikeapagernu.mbcr,youcall 

3 thatandtbenyou’reas]redtoputinaPBi? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q And that’s yours issued by the White House. 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Okay. D8youbaveanyothersissuedbytheWhite 

8 House? No, wasthzanswer? 

!l somebody wants to call you? 

!2 A No, sir. 

!3 BY Ms. WIRTHz 

!4 Q Does the pantry have an extension? 

!5 A -%?DmtXY? 

Page 5( 1 

1 Q Yes. 

2 A YeS. 

3 Q what is it? 

4 A --l%enumber? 

5 Q Yes. 

6 A Idon’tthinkIhavetogiveittoyou,doI? 

7 MRWISENBERG: Yes. Butifyouneedtotalkto 

8 your attorney, you can. 

9 THBwrrHBss: Iwilltalktomyattorney. 

0 (The witness was excused to confer with counsel.) 

1 MR WISENBEKG: Let the record reflect that the 

2 w-itness, Mr. Nelvis, has reentered the grand jury room 

3 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Nelvis, you are stiIl under 

4 oath 

5 hut_ WsENmRo: We cmtime to have a quonnn, do we 

6 not_ Madam Foreperson? 

7 THE EOREPERSON: Yes, we do. 

8 MR. WISENBERG: The continue to be no 

9 unauthorizd persons in the grand jury room, correct? 

10 THJZ FOREPERSON: No, sir. There are no 

11 unauthorized persons. 

!2 BY MS. WIRTHz 

!3 Q So them wa.s a question pending Mr. Nelvis. What 

!4 is your extension in the pantry? 

!5 AM. 

9 A No, sir. 

1 0 Q Do you have any personal pagers or beepers? 

1 1 A No, sir. 

1 2 BY MS. WIRTH: 

1 3 Q Do you have any calling cards? 

1 4 A I do have. 

: 1 5 Q With what companies? 

1 6 A Just White House, Food Service. Calling cards, you 

1 7 say? 

I 8 Q An AT&T or Sprint. You know, to make a credit card 

1 

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2 

2 

2 

2 L 

March 12,1998 

9 call from a telephone booth or a pay phone. 

:0 A Oh. No, I don’t. 

:1 Q No? 

:2 A I used to have, but I don’t have any more. You’re 

13 talking about like a credit card? 

14 Q h’h-hmm. 

!5 A Okay. No. 

Psee 49 - Par? 52 
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BYMLWISENBERG: 

Page 52 

Q The grand jurors have some questions for you thal 

we will ask. Who is responsible for tidying up these areas 

we’ve been talking about? The Oval Oftice, the dining room, 

the study, the bathroom, the hallway between the study and 

the bathroom. Who is responsible for keeping those tidy? 

A After the working hours, at 1 O:OO, the GSA people 

is the one that goes in there and clean up the places. 

Q And what about before IO? 

A Before 10, Glen Mays and myself was there, but we 

onlydotidyupif~‘sacoff~cupthatwasusedbythe 

President in the Oval Office, that’s all. We just look at 

the Oval Office to make sure that the chairs are in or&r 

Q All right. No general tidying up by you all during 

the day unless you see something out of order. 

A Yes. 

Q Is there anybody else prior to 10 p.m. other than 

you and Mr. Mays who has that duty? 

A No, sir. 

Q Okay. Do you ever use the. bathroom across from the 

study? 

A No, sir. 

Q What facilities do you use when you’re up in the 

pantry area? 

A Like if I want to go to the bathroom? 

Page 54 

fight. 

Downstairs. 

You go down to the White House mess area? 

The basement. 

okay. That’s somew&eclosetotbeWhiteHouse 

lSESS? 

A Yes, Sir. 

Q who fills in for you When you Cant ’ Work, When 

youre ’ sick or on vacation? 

A JustmeandGlenMaysaretheonethatare 

rotating. 

Q Okay. He will typically fti in for you? 

A Yes. 

Q He’ll take your shift? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. Whathappenswhenhccan’tfillinforyou? 

Who would be assigned to do that? 

A So far it’s never been happened, we always been 

there, the two of us. That’s about it. Yes. 

Q For instance, this Mr. McGrath that we talked 

about, he’s never filled in for you? 

A Never. 

Q Have you ever asked him -- are there ever occasions 

where you’ve asked people from the mess in the basanent to 

help you all out because you’ve got a particular - as an 

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Page 55 

example, you’ve got a meeting where everybody n&s to be 

served? 

A I will do that between Glen Mays and myself as 

a part of the training. Like can we get one guy here 

for training to serve the bilateral meeting with the head 

of state. Which is only for five to ten minutes. That’s 

all. 

Q All right. So except for having a person who you 

want to train to help you when you have these events that yo; 

all can’t handle by you&f, you don’t just ask for people 

from the mess. 

A No. 

Q Okay. Now, did you understand my question? 

A Could you repeat it again to make sure? 

Q S&e. I think you’ve said that when you’ve got - 

that on occasions where you need more than just you and Gle 

Mays to serve a group of people, you will ask sometimes for i 

third person as like a trainee, is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. Did you ever have any occasion where yet 

neededtouscathi.rdorafourthpersontobelpyouandGlen 

butitwasn’tatrainee,itwasjustsomeone who works down 

inthemess? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. And how many times would you say that 

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happened? 

A It happened maybe once ewxy two months. 

Q Allright. WasM.r.McGratbeveroneofthose 

persons who helped you? 

A Ithinkweusedhimonceortwice~ 

Q Okay. Since your fti appearance here before the 

grand jury, has anything changed about your employmeat 

status? 

No, sir. 

Not only what your duties are but your salary? 

No, sir. 

Nothing’s changed? 

Nothing changed 

Nothing about your rank has changed? 

No, sir. 

HaveyoutaLkedtoanybodyintheWbiteHousesince 

your last visit to the grand jury, have you talked to anybody 

in the White House about anything in any way connected to 

your grand jury visit or Monica Lzwinsky? 

A No, sir. 

Q Is the& any Navy code, military code of any kin8 

that you feel is more important than the oath you took 

tell the truth in front of the grand jury? L.et me rephrase 

that. 

Is &re any Navy code or military code that you 

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feel might require you to not teIl the truth in front of thi 

grand jury? 

A You’re talking about the Navy co& -- you mentioned 

about the Navy code? 

Q fight 

A If its ’ better? 

Q Well, let me rephrase it You took an oath here, 

both times that you came previously and today, you took an 

oath to tell the truth, correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. Is thcrc anything such as a Navy code or a 

militarycodeorrulesofservioeattheWhiteHousethatyou 

feel or you have been told allows you to not tell the trud 

here? 

A No, sir. 

Q You understand my question? 

A I understand. 

Q Youundcrstandthatyouhavetotellthetruthwhen 

you testify in front of the grand jury. 

A Yes, Sir. 

Q And you understand that tkz’s nothing that trumps 

that oath in front of the grand jury, nothing that allows you 

to say “I don’t have to do that because of some military 

reasonorsomeNavyreasonorbzcauseIworkattheWhite 

House.” 

Multi-Pagem March 12, 1991 

1 P3.ge 5’ 

S 1 Q Have you received any bills yet from your attorney? 

2 A Not yet, sir. 

3 Q Okay. Has he told you how much this is going to 

4 cost, his representation of you? 

5 A He kind of mentioned about the lawyer is so 

6 expensive, some were $300 an hour, something like thal 

7 Q Okay. So you think that’s what your fee is going 

8 to be, $300 an hour? 

9 A It might be, sir. Yes. 

1 IO Q You’re not sure what his fee is going to? 

1 II A Well, he says $300, so I’m sure it’s going to be 

I I2 $300. 

hl 13 Q Okay. All right_ Other than the factthatyou 

I 14 think the fee is going to be $300 an hour, has your lawyer 

I I5 told you - I don’t want to hear about communication, I don’t 

1 .6 want to hear about attorney-client confidences, but other 

1 .7 than S300 an hour, do you know what your fee is other than 

I 8 that, that hourly fee? 

1 9 A No, sir. 

2 !O Q What your hVyerS ’ fee is? 

2 !l A I don’t know. 

2 !2 Q Okay. Did Monica lzwinsky ever tell you, eva say 

2 !3 to you that she was in love with the President? 

2 !4 A No. 

2 !5 Q Did she say anything like that? 

, 1 Page 6C 

A No, sir. 

Page 58 

1 A Yes, Sir. 1 understand. 

2 Q You understand that? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Normally in a situation like yours, when you 

5 get involved in a legal problem related to your work, 

6 normally you would be rcpresenteci by a Navy lawya, isn’t 

7 thattnle? 

8 A Yes, Sir. 

9 Q Oanyoute~us,then,why-canyouenhghten 

o us as to why on this occasion you’re not using a Navy 

1 lawyer? 

2 A ‘IhisisthefirsttimeI’vebeentothiskindof 

3 situation and the things have happened so quick, so I never 

4 think of anything else except that I have to consult my 

5 supervisor, which is Lieutenant I&Cain at that tune, which 

6 has been them for about three or four months. 

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Did McOain suggest that you get a Navy lawyer? 

Nobody suggest to me to got a Navy lawyer. 

Did you think about getting a Navy lawyer? 

No, I never think anything like that 

Did anybody tell you not to get a Navy lawyer? 

Nobody. 

Your testimony is it all just happened so quickly 

4 that you’ve arranged it the way you’ve arranged it. 

5 A Yes. 

Q Didsheeveractlikeshewasinlovewiththe 

President? 

A No, sir. 

Q Did she ever act in any way differently - did you 

everseeheracttowardtothePresident,Idon’tmean 

neccs&Iyjustp%y&allywhenhewasthem,butImtanin 

termsofthewayshetalkedabouthimevenifhewasn’t 

there,didsheevertaIkaboutoractwithmspecttothe 

1 President any diffucntly than you saw any other intern or 

1 low level staffer act? 

1 A No, sir. 

1 Q Do you understand my question? 

1 A Iunderstand. Inevernoticedsomuch. Ijust 

1 neverpaidattenticmtothewaysheacted. Shejustappcanzd 

1 friendlytomermdthingslikethat. 

1 Q Were you awam of any other intern or ex-intern who 

1 would call you and ask about bow your boss is and wkt k ~;a( 

1 doing? 

2 A Yes. A few. A few interns that stopped by and 

2 said, “Hi, how are you doing?” Just say “Good morning how 

2 are you? How’s the President_doing today?” 

2 Q Okay. 

2 A Yes. Things like that. 

2 Q So her testimony -- so her activity in that mgard, 

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Page 61 

both in stopping by where you were and in calling you, was 

not unusual in any way to you. 

A Yes. 

Q Yes, it was not unusual? 

A It’s not unusual. 

MR. WISENBERG: That’s all I have. 

MS. WIRTH: 1 just have one clarification question, 

actually, for the court reporter. 

BY Ms. WIRTH: 

Q You mentioned, we believe, a bar that Monica was a.t 

named Mario’s or somethg like that? Do you remember an: 

testimony about that? We just needed to know the spelling 01 

the bar, the restaurant or bar where she was. 

A who? 

Q Monica. In a telephone conversation you had witl 

her, did she mention to you where she was? 

A I don’t recall that. 

MS. WIRTH Okay. Thank you. 

MR. WISENBERG: Any questions? 

A JUROR: I just had a question for Mr. Nelvis. 

Have your attorneys talked to anyone at the White 

House or do they plan to talk to anyone at tbe White House 

regarding your testimony here? 

THE WITNESS: No. 

A JUROR: To both questions? 

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THE wrr~E~s: Could you repeat the question? 

BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Q Two questions. First, have they talked to anybod! 

atthewhiteHouseaboutyourpriortestimonytothegrand 

jury, your attorneys? 

A No. He never mentioned to me anything like that 

andInevertall&tohim. 

Q Did you ever authorize your attorney to talk to 

anybody at the White House about your prior grand jur? 

testimony? 

A I never talked to him about things like that. 

Q Okay. ‘So the answer is no, you did not - 

A No, I did not 

Q You did not tell your attorney it was okay for him 

5 to talk to the White House about your testimony. 

5 A 

7 Q 

3 A 

) Q 

1 A 

I 

2 

Yes, sir. 

Yes, sir, you did not telI him it was okay. 

I did not telI him. Yes. 

All right. 

I never talked to him things like that. 

A JUROR: I don’t think that’s - I’m sorry. 

MR. WISENBERG: Go ahead. I wasn’t finished, but 

3 go ahead 

4 A JUROR: I’II’I sorry. 

5 MR. WISENBERG: 1111 nrobably still miss it. 

March 12,1998 

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BY MR. WISENBERG: 

Page 63 

Q Did you ever authorize your attorney to talk to the I 

president’s lawyers, any of the President’s lawyers, not just 

people at the White House, but any of the President’s 

lawyers, about your grand jury testimony? 

A No. 

Q All right. Now, do you intend to talk to anybody 

other than your attorney about your grand jury testimony hen 

today? 

A No. 

Q You can do that if you want to. There’s nothing 

that says you can’t. I’m just asking you if you plan to do 

that. If you currently plan to talk to anybody other than 

your attorney about your testimony here today. 

A No, I will not do that. 

Q Pardon? 

A I don’t think I’ll do that. 

Q Okay. Now, do you - you understand that’s up tr 

you, whether or not you do that? 

A Yes. You’re telling me. Yes. 

Q Now, is it your understanding that your 

attorneys - we’ve talked about your past grand jury 

testimony. Is it your uuderstaudiug that your attorneys are 

going to talk to anybody atthe -White House orany&the 

President‘s lawyers about your grand jury testimony today? 

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Page 64 

Q Sure. Is it your understanding that your attorneys 

are going to talk to anyone at the White House about today’s 

grand jury testimony? 

A No. 

Q Okay. And you have not told them they can do that, 

CorreCt? 

P 

A Never. Never discussed that. 

Q Anddoyouknowiftheyplantotalktothe 

Resident’s lawyers about your grand jury testimony today? 

A I don’t know, sir. 

Q And you haven’t told them if they can do that 

A No, sir. 

MR. WISENBERG: Okay. Now - 

Dowestillneedtoask? 

A JUROR: Thank you. 

A JUROR: I just have a question for you because I 

J don’t lcnow very much about the military, so I have to ask 

2 this so I can get a more clear picture. 

3 Is one of your top priorities being in the Navy to 

I follow your supetvisor’s instructions? Or like do what they 

2 tell you, follow their orders? Follow whatever orders they 

3 give you? 

$ THE WITNFSS: What do you mean, orders, ma’am? 

5 A ILJROR: Like you’re in the militaty and you have 

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like a colonel or whomever it is to give you orders or 

instructions with regards to how you should handle youl 

duties. 

THE WTTNESS: Yes. 

A JUROR: k that correct? 

THE LVrnnss: Yes. 

A JUFLOR: Would it be -- is the highest ranking 

officer who could give you an order the President of the 

United States? 

xx~wnxr3.s: Wbatdoyoumfzm? Ordersfrom-- 

A JUROR: wd, iS he not -- is the &Sident over 

the military, the Navy? 

THE WITNESS: Could you repeat it again? 

A JUROR Okay. Is the President the 

commander-in-chief of the Navy? 

THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm. Yes. 

A IUROR: Therefore, if an order was given by the 

commander-in-chief to you, Mr. Nelvis, would you have to 

follow that or&r? 

THE WITNEZG: Well, it don’t work that way, that 

the President will directly tell you. The President know: 

thatIwasintlxmilit.aryandIhavemyownboss. IfImade 

amistaketbere,IwillneverbearfromthePresident,butI 

couldbeturninmypassandleavetheWhiteHouseandthe 

President never give orders. 

Page 66 

1 I have my own military supervisor that will give me 

2 ordersandcommunicatewithhimevaydaywbatIdoandwht 

3 WedosupportfortheF’resident. Ifwegototbetip,also, 

4 tosupportthehsidenfthatcamefromourmilitary 

5 supervisor, not from the president. 

6 MRWJSENBBRG: CanIaskaquestion? 

7 THE F0REPERsoN: sure8 BY MR. WISENBERG: 

9 Q Have any of your superiors, either civilian or 

o military, told you that you cant ’ or you shouldnt ’ tell the 

1 whole truth in front of this grand jury? 

2 A No,sir. 

3 h4R. WISENBERG: by further questions? 

4 (No response-) 

5 MR. WISENBERG: All right_ May the witness bc 

6 allowed to leave? May the witness be dismissed? 

7 THEmREpERsoN: Yes,he may. 

8 MR. WISENBERG: m right. 

9 m witness was excused.) 

0 (Wbereupoq at 12:29 p.m., the taking of testimony 

1 inthepresenceofafullquorumoft.heGmndJurywas 

2 concluded.) 

3 ***** 

March 12,199s 

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3102 
3103 

OK-302 (Rev. 819-941 

- 1 - 

OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL 

Date of vanscripion 6/l/98 

GARY S. NIEDZWIECKI, Officer, United States Secret 

Service, (USSS) Uniformed Division (UD), date of birth,_ 

-r- was interviewed at the Office of the 

Independent Counsel (OIC), 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, 

Washington, DC, 20004. Present for the interview were Associate 

Independent Counsels (AIC) MICHAEL TRAVERS and MARY ANNE WIRTH; 

Department of Justice (DOJ) attorneys, JANIS KASTHNBAUM and.ANNE 

WEISMANN. NIEDZWIECKI was interviewed under the terms of an 

agreement reached between the OIC and the DOJ. After being 

apprised of the official and personal identities of the 

interviewers and the nature of the interview, NIEDZWIECKI 

provided the following information: 

NIEDZWIECKI entered on duty with the USSS on January 

23, 1978 and was initially assigned to the Communications Center 

for his first three years. NIEDZWIECKI said he was then assigned 

to the Special Operations Division (SOD) for thirteen years. 

Also during this time NIEDZWIECKI was a member of the Secret 

Service competitive pistol team. In August 1996, NIEDZWIECKI was 

assigned to the White House but was not given an assigned post. 

This assignment lasted until August 1997 when he was reassigned 

to the Deputy Chief's Office under 

BILL HHALY. 

the supervision of Captain 

NIEDZWIECKI advised that 

had never seen or spoken to MONICA 

knowledge. 

prior to December 6, 1997 he 

LEWINSKY to the best of his 

On Saturday, December 6, 1997 NIBDZWIBCKI was assigned 

to Post m but was also expected to relieve other officers for 

their break time. Following his break, NIEDZWIECKI went to the 

Northwest Gate to relieve one of the officers there. When he 

arrived at the Northwest Gate, he found LEWINSKY already at the 

gate and apparently trying to complete the entry process without 

much success. LEWINSKY seemed to be frustrated and Officer BRYAN 

HALL was explaining to her that she could not come in without an 

appointment. LEWINSKY had a large bag which appeared to contain 

several Christmas wrapped packages. Officer HALL had told her to 

call BETTY CURRIE for entry clearance. LEWINSKY apparently had 

tried this but had been unable reach CURRIE. One of the officers 

at the gate called Officer TYLER who was stationed at the post 

Investigation on 05/29/98 pt Washington, D. C. Ale I 29D-OIC-LR-35063 

Datedictated 6/l/98 
3104 

OK-3u2a (Rev. 8-19-W) 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

Continuation of OK-302 of GARY S. NIEDZWIECKI .~n 05/29/98 .Page 2 

nearest to CURRIE's office and asked if TYLER could locate 

CURRIE. NIEDZWIECKI remembered that LEWINSKY waited inside the 

post I (because it was cold) for eight or ten minutes until she 

apparently heard HALL mention that ELEANOR MONDALE was visiting 

the President and following that comment, LEWINSKY abruptly left. 

NIEDZWIECKI said he cautioned HALL about telling outsiders about 

the identity of anyone visiting in the West Wing of the White 

House. 

NIEDZWIECKI said that at some point after MONDALE had 

left the area, someone, possibly TYLER called the Gate and 

NIHDZWIECKI heard HALL's response "she's already left," 

apparently referring to LEWINSKY. 

NIEDZWIECKI said that apparently MONDALE had entered 

the White House during NIEDZWIECKI's 20 minute break just before 

his return to the Northwest Gate where he found LEWINSKY trying 

to be cleared for entry. 

NIEDZWIECKI said that within five minutes after his 

conversation with HALL, MONDALE left the White House in an 

obvious hurry through the Northwest Gate. 

NIEDZWIECKI left the Northwest Gate post a short time 

later to assume his duties at the -post which is located 

outside the West Wing inside a small building. While alone at 

this post, Captain PURDIE and Sergeant WILLIAMS came to the post 

and advised NIEDZWIECKI what had happened at the Northwest Gate 

with regard to LEWINSKY and asked what he knew about the 

incident. Captain PURDIE completed the discussions and then 

asked NIEDZWIECKI to accompany them back to the Northwest Gate. 

NIEDZWIECKI, Captain PURDIE and Sergeant WILLIAMS went to the 

Northwest Gate as soon as NIEDZWIECKI's partner returned to the 

_ post. (Protective Function Privilege invoked as to the 

substance of these conversations) 

NIEDZWIECKI recalls that HALL was at the gate when 

Captain PURDIE and Sergeant WILLIAMS began asking questions about 

what was said to LEWINSKY. NIHDZWIECKI remembers that HALL in 

recounting the incident, thought that LEWINSKY and MONDALE were 

friends and also that LEWINSKY must have overheard him talking to 

someone on the phone about MONDALE. NIEDZWIECKI said that 

Officer STACY PORTER returned to the Northwest Gate during the 

time Captain PURDIE was questioning HALL and was likewise 

questioned_ 

At the conclusion of the questioning, Captain PURDIE 
3105 

OK-3021 (Rev. 8-19-94) 

29D-OIC-LR-35063 

continuation or OK-3M of GARY S. NIEDZWIECKI .On 05/29/9S .Pagc A___ 

and Sergeant WILLIAMS both said to the Officers at the Northwest 

Gate that "this never happened, don't talk about anything." 

NIEDZWIECKI left the Northwest Gate area and returned to his post 

and did not hear any more about the incident. 

NIEDZWIECKI remembers hearing rumors that LEWINSKY 

would sometimes come into the White House complex by entering 

through posts m or-O. These posts are located at the Old 

Executive Office Building (OEOB), m being on the north side of 

the building at the top of the steps on Pennsylvania Avenue and 

m being mid way of the block on 17th Street. NIEDZWIECKI also 

remembers hearing another rumor that LEXINSKY sometimes entered 

the White House Complex through the Southwest Gate. 

NIBDZWIECKI advised that he also has heard a rumor 

among UC, personnel that the President and- had an 

affair during the campaign of 1996. 

tar th. District Of co1Lnbia 

3rd ‘ Constitution, N.W. 

vashlnqton, D.C. 20001 

EDVARD J. PAGE 

MARY ANYWE rxmn 

Assoc1.t. Xndrpendenr Counsel 

Office 01 Indepmdcnt Counsel 

1001 Pwmsylvanl~ Avenue, N.Y. 

Suite 490 Worth 

Washinqcon, D.C. 20004 

3107 

In Re: Grand Jury Proceedings Multi-Pagem Thursday, July 30, 1998 

PdcJC ; 

CCJHTEWTS 

WlTNESS : Paqe 

GAANC JURY EXHIB:TS~ 

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PROCEEDINGS 

Whereupon, 

GARY NIEDZWIECKI 

was called as a witness and, after having been fust dui} 

sworn by the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examimzd an 

testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION 

BY MR. PAGE: 

Q All right. Sir, would you tell us your full name? 

A My name is Gary Niedzwiecki. 

Q And where do you work? 

A I work for the Secret Service uniformed division. 

I’m currently at the White House. 

Q All right. I want to explain some things to you 

before we get started with your questions, okay? 

Fii of all, you are now in front of a federal 

grand jury and the court reporter immediately to your left 

is taking down everything that’s said here, both questions 

and answers. Do you understand that? 

A Yes. 

Q Have you ever given a statement or deposition 

before where that’s been done? 

A Yes. 

Q So you understand what that’s about. 

A Yes, sir. 

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Q Do you understand that in appearing before a 

Federal grand jury you have certain rights and 

responsibilities? 

A Yes. sir. 

Q I’d like to review them with you now and make sure 

that you understand each of them. 

Before I do that, I want to represent to you 

that this federal grand jury is conducting an investigation 

of possible violations of federal criminal laws involving 

whether Monica Lewinsky or others domed pe+ry. 

obstructed justice, intimidated witnesses or otherwise 

violated federal law, other than a Class B or C misdemeanor 

or infraction, in dealing with witnesses, potential 

witnesses. attorneys or others concerning the civil case 

Jones v. Clinton. 

Do you understand what this grand jury is 

investigating? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you understand that you have certain rights. 

constitutional rights, and one of them is that you may refuse 

to answer one of the questions or any of the questions put to 

you by either myself, my colleague or a member of the grand 

jury if a truthful answer to that question would tend to 

incriminate you? Do you understand that? 

A Yes, sir. 

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Q Do you understand further that anything you do or 

say here today during your appearance could be used against 

you by this _md jury or m a subsequent legal proceeding? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you understand further that if you have a 

lawyer, the grand jury will permit you a reasonabie 

opportunity to step outside the grand jury room and to 

consult with that lawyer or lawyers if you want to? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q Do you have a lawyer or lawyers present? 

A Yes. Yes, I do. 

Q And would you tell us who their names are, please? 

A Michael Leibig. 

Q Anyone else that’s representing you? 

A No, sir. That’s it. 

Q No one from Secret Service., no one from the 

Department of Justice. 

A No. 

Q That you’re aware of. 

A No. No. 

Q Do you understand that in the grand jury as well as 

in the investigation stage there are two broad categories of 

3 witnesses? Qne is a target and one is a subject. 

:4 A Yes. 

.5 Q A target means that the grand jury has substantial 

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evidence linking them to the commission of a crime and that 

that is someone that they’re looking at or thinking about 

returning an indictment against. 

A Mm-hmm. 

Q On the other hand, another term or definition of a 

witness in the grand jury investigation stage is called a 

subject and that’s a person whose conduct may be within the 

scope of the grand jury’s investigation in two different ways 

One of them in the sense that that person, that witness, may 

have done something that was illegal or improper, and so the 

grand jury is looking at it from that perspective. 

in another sense, however, from simply a fact 

witness perspective, the grand jury may he just interested 

in hearing from a subject but only because that subject is 

really a fact witness. Do you understand the distinction? 

A Yes. 

Q I represent to you now today that you are in that 

latter category of subject, meaning a fact witness. Do you 

understand that? 

A Yes. 

Q Finally, do you understand that what goes on here 

today before the grand jury is secret under the Federal Rules 

of Criminal procedure? Do you understand that? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q You can, however, after your appearance today, tell 

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whomever you want about what hap@ hsc today because tbc 

tuk of sccncy applies to everybody bcx but you. Do you 

understilnd that? 

A Yes. sir. 

Q In otbu words. in the future. after you conclude 

?‘our appeamnce bcre today. ‘HZ cannot say anything. but you 

can. Are you with me? 

A Yes. 

Q There are some exceptions to that. though: a 

court order, if a criminal case is made or f&d against 

somebody, and tbwc ax otha exceptions that would pamit 

what happened bcrc today to bc disclosed to others. Do you 

understand that. that there arc some exceptions to that 

sccrccy requirancnt? 

A Ycs.Ycs. Iunderstand. 

Q All right. Do you have any other questions of us 

beforc WC get startal? 

No. sir. 

All right. Do you know Mary Anm Wire? 

Yes. I belie% we’ve met before. 

She’s going to ask you your questions today, okay? 

Okay. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Officer Niaizwiecki. you have ban anployul by the 

*ret *ice since 1978. Is that right? 

Page* I ‘

1 A That’s correct. 

2 Q And in August 1996, you were assigned to the White 

3 House? 

4 A That’s correct. 

5 Q And you were unassigned until August of 1997 whm 

6 you were assigned to the White House? 

7 A From when I started -- 

B Q Right. In August of 1996, you were assigned to tk 

9 WhiteHouse. 

3 A Right. 

1 Q What was your assignment when you got there? 

2 A I was unassigned, basically, doing various other 

3 duties. 

4 Q So you’d float from post to post? 

5 A Right. 

5 Q And that was your status for about how !ong? 

7 A Probably about eight months. 

3 Q Okay. And what happened at the end of eight 

2 months? 

1 A I put in for a slot. 

I Q You have to speak up, please. 

z A I put in for a deputy chief’s position up in the -- 

! working with ail the emergency gear, working with vehicles 

I block& ammd the White House, maintenance. Basically 

5 helping with ail the emergency gear around the complex. i 

Page5-Page8 

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1 

Page ! Page I’ 

1 Q And did you get that slot? 1 A -bat’s COITOX 

2 A Yes. 2 MS. WIRTH: And I’ve marked both of than, one with 

3 Q Is your title deputy chief7 Or you work for the 3 Grand Jury Exhibit No. GN-1 and the other with GN-2. And I’m 

4 &pt.y chief. 4 going to show those to you. okay? 

5 A I work for the deputy chief property officer. 5 (Grand Jury Exhibits No. GN-1 

6 Q And you’re still in that position? 6 and GN-2 were marked for 

7 A Yes. 7 idmtification.) 

8 Q Okay. Now, have you ever seen Monica Lewinsky? 8 BY MS. WIRTH: 

9 A Yes. I did. 9 Q Can you tell tk pnd jury what they arc? Fit 

0 Q Whenwasthefirsttime? 0 start with GN-I. H‘hat is that? Tk top document. 

1 A OnDexxmber6, 1997. J A GN-I is a sector roster. Basically on the 

2 Q Did you ever see ber in October of 1997? 2 northwest gate grounds of tbc White House. diffautt posts 

3 A No. 3 am assigned to each individual ofticcr and there is a mason 

4 Q Did you ever see her at the Old EOB? 4 why I also produced this is because of tbc times and also on 

5 A No,Iheardthatsbewasgoingi.nandoutofthe 5 GN-2, which are a set of my notes. and I’ll tell you why I 

6 Old EOB. 6 took them during tb.is wbok testimony. that you’ll find out 

7 Q Okay. How many times have you seen her? 7 whem the come into play and whcm I started writing them. 

6 A Just the one time at the gate. 8 And I just kept them. 

9 Q Okay. 9 Q Okay. So GN-2 arc your notes? 

3 A The northwest gate. 0 A Okny. Yes. 

1 Q So the very ftrst time you ever saw Monica Lewinsky I Q Okay. So tbcy’re in front of you and if you nad 

2 was December 6, 1997? 2 to refer to theta you can. At some point later, we’ll have 

3 A Right. 3 you read them into the record. okay? 

4 Q Okay. And where were you working that day? 4 A Thank you. 

5 A I was working at the northwest gate of the complex. 5 Q All right. So the question ,was did there come a 

Page 10 Page 11 

I Q And were you tilling in for somebody else or was 

! that your assignment for the day? 

3 A ‘Ihat was my assignment. 

4 Q And what was your shift that day? 

5 A It was the 6:30 to 2:30 shift, 6:30 to 3:O0. 

6 The 6:30 to 3:00 shift, a.m. 

7 Q a.m.? Okay. Until 2:30 in the afternoon? 

8 To 3:00? 

9 A Mm-hmm. 

3 Q All right. Can you tell us whether there came a 

I time that day tihen something happened? 

2 A Yes, there was. 

3 Q About what time did it begin? To the best of your 

I memory. 

5 A &I I refer to my notes? 

5 Q Yes, you may. Did you bring notes with you? 

1 A Yes, I did. 

5 Q And you’ve provided them to us? 

3 A Yes. 

) MS. WlRTH: I’m just going to step out for just one 

I second. 

1 (Pause.) 

I BY MS. WIRTH: 

1 Q Okay. This morning through your lawyer you 

i produced two pieces of paper to us. Is that correct? 

I time that something happened that day? And 1 believe you 

1 testified yes. And thm 1 asked you about what time did it 

3 occur or did it begin to your knowledge. 

4 A Roughly about a qmu-ter of ten. 

5 Q In the morning? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Okay. what happened? 

8 A Monica Lcwinsky showed up at the northwest gate. 

9 At that time. I didn’t know her last name. 

D Q Did you know ha first name? 

1 A It was -- I didn’t know who she was personally 

2 until later. I was assigned to the northwest gate at this 

3 instant, at this occurrcncc. with Brian Hall. He was also 

4 .there with me. And k was to my left and we both had 

5 computers for appointments that come into the gate at the 

5 Wbitc House and you run names to su if they’re signed in and 

1 cleared in. 

% Q Prior to that date. had you ever heard anything 

) about someone named Monica? 

1 A Yes. I heard - I heard this girl Monica used to 

I be an intern in the East Wing and she was kt go for some 

! reason I didn’t know, but sk used to k an intun at the 

I White House. And sk s&nvul up this day with Christmas 

I presents - gifts for the R&km-I don’t know if they 

i were Christmas gifts. they were gifts for the President. 

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Did you hear her say !har !LJI’s what + woe? 

Yes. 

Who did she say that to” 

Brian HaII. 

Who was also working at that time? 

Yes. 

Who was primarily dealing with her? 

Brian HaU. At the northwest gate, right now it’s 

a trailer under construction. It’s an entry gate and it’s 

also used for press people coming in. I was helping clear 

some press people in at the same time.. Appointments show up 

at the gate. 

Monica showed up at the gate the. northwest gate 

and Brian Hall told her tn use the outside phone. She stated 

she was here to see Betty Curritz so Brian told hez to use 

the outside phone. At that time she tried calling tbe 

operator and she couldn’t get a hold of her. 

Q Could you hear her when she was speaking on the . 

outside phone? 

A No, I couldn’t hear hu on the outside. 

Q How do you know that she couldn’t get a hold of 

Betty Cut-tie? 

A Because she knocked on the door and Brian let her 

in, since she had an appointment with Betty Cunie. We both 

r tried to locate her. 

1 Q Locate Betty Currie? 1 

2 A Right. 2 

3 Q What did you do? 3 

4 .4 He called the -at that time. it was Officer 4 

5 Chmery. and asked if Betty Curric was around the West Wing. 5 

6 Q And- is the West Wing lobby? 6 

7 A Right. And I called at the same time. I helped 7 

8 him in a couple of instances. I helped him call the E-6 8 

9 officer around the Oval Office. 9 

0 Q And who was that that day? 0 

1 A It was Ofticer Tyler at that time. And I asked 1 

2 him.‘1 said. “Mike. do you see Betty around? Is she 2 

3 available?” And he said. “No. I don’t.” 3 

4 Q He said what? 4 

5 A He said. “No. 1 couldn’t locate her.” 5 

6 Q Okay. So Mike Tyler told you he didn’t .see Betty 6 

7 Curtie at that time. 7 

8 A Right. 8 

9 Q Do you know if Officer Hall ever called Officer 9 

0 Tyler? 0 

1 A I believe he also tried to - diffcrrnt - it was I 

2 like maybe three or four minutes intervals. Yes. We kept 2 

3 trying. It was -- you know. we’re tme to help a guest come 3 

4 in and this was somebody’s guest and we’re trying to help 4 

-c locate her. 5 

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Q So what happened next? 

A We couldn’t locate Betty Currie. We couldn’t 

locate her and she waited around a couple of minutes. It w; 

cold outside. so we let her stay in the trailer there. 

Q Referring to Monica? 

A Right. ht Monica stay with us inside the warm 

area there. She was rather disturbed because she couldn’t 

get a hold of her and drop her gifts off, I guess. I guess 

Brian had a conversation with her. I didn’t really focus cm 

it, I was helping clear some press people in also. 

If I could read something here I wrote? 

MS. W’IRTH: Okay. So reading from your notes. 

Go ahead. 

MR. PAGE: What exhibit number is that? 

MS. WIRTH: I’m sorry? 

THE WITNESS: ‘Ihis is Exhibit GN-2. 

“Monica Lewinsky showed up at the northwest gate. 

8 Off&r Hall had asked her if sbe bad an appointment. 

9 He told her to use the outside telephone to contact Betty 

0 Curie. She said sbe wasn’t available. Brian let her in. 

1 I tried calling myself to see if we could locate Betty. 

2 While inside tbe post, Brian Hall told Monica he couldn’t get 

3 a hold of Berty Currie, said she must be busy.” 

4 BY MS. WIRTH: 

!5 Q Okay. We’re going to stop now. So you’ve finisbed 

Page Ic 

reading from your notes? 

A Right. 

Q DOYOU nmcmtm cvaything that you just =d as 

things that happa~d that day? 

A Yes. 

Q Is thetc anything there that you don’t remember 

that you just read? 

A No. 

Q Okay. All righi. So now you’retelling thegrand 

jury in your own words what you nmeznba. Goakad. 

A Basically. she waited around a couple of minutes 

andwekcptbyingtogdaboldofBe!ty. AndIgucssBrian 

had mentioned that Eleanor Mondak was in - Ekanor Mondak 

had come in a short time ago and sk was probably with Bc%y 

CtlHk. 

Q Okay. And did you hear Dftiw Hall say that? 

A Yes. 

Q And did Offiiccr Hall say that Ekanor Monciak was 

visiting Betty Currie or visiting the Resident? 

A Iwroteitas BenyCunie. 

Q That’s what’s in your notes? 

A That’s what’s in my notes. 

Q And is that your memory? Your best memory? 

A Yea. 

Q Okay. Now. just for tk nzord. you mrt 

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intaviewed p~iously by an f%I agent who works with 

our off& and I was also prs~nt, correct? And otkrs. 

Do you mmanhu &it intervim? 

A Yes. 

Q Andxwuiingfromtbe302tbatisarecordoftbat 

interview, it says that Niedzwiccki ‘ nmanbcrcd that Lewinsky 

waited inside the post because it was cold for eight or ten 

minutes, until rbc apparently heard Hall mention that Eleanor 

Mondale was visiting tbt Residart.” And tkn it continues. 

A No, that’s - okay. 

Q Before I II& any question about tha& on tk day 

that you had this intuvimv, did you have your notes? 

A No. 

Q Okay. And since. then, you’ve had an opportunity to 

read t&c notes? 

A Right. 

Q And they’ve refreshed your memory? 

A Yes. 

Q Can you just tell the grand jury which version is 

in your mind more correct, what is in your notes or what I’ve 

just read to you from the 302? 

A I believe my notes. 

Q Okay. And your notes tell you that Officer Hall 

said that Eleanor Mondale was visiting Betty Curie? 

A Yes. 

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Q And to your knowledge, Monica Lewinsky heard -- did 

he say that to Monica Lewinsky? 

A Maybe - yes. And maybe she took it out of 

context, meaning that she was in there seeing the President. 

I have no idea, but that’s what -- 

Q All right. Did you ever hear Monica Lewinsky ask 

Officer Hall whether the President was in the Oval Office? 

A No. 

Q Okay. Do you know whether there was ever any radio 

transmission at that time to the effect that the President 

was in the Oval Office? To your knowledge. 

A I knew where he was, but I didn’t -- you don’t 

disclose to people where the President is at any time. 

Q Were there radios turned on in the trailer? 

A Just the oflicers’ radios, maybe. Maybe she -- 

I don’t believe she would have heard it. 

Q Okay. But it was tumed on, the radio was? 

A We each have a radio. Yes. 

Q But is it something that you can hear out in the 

open or is it something that’s plugged into your ear? 

A It’s turned on in the open, but it’s not that loud 

for others. 

Q Do you know whether while Monica was there there 

was any radio transmission that the President had moved to 

the Oval Office or was in the Oval Off&? If you know. 

Page IF 

1 A I have a time when he was moved to -- when he moved 

2 to the Oval Office because there was a question this day that 

3 this occunpnce happened. 

4 We had an ambulance show up at the visitors gate 

5 andtheyhadtodirectthemthrou&tbegatesoftheWhite 

6 House and down by the press lobby so we could get a stroke 

7 victim in the ambulance and I wrote down a time. 

8 Shortly after that, the President was en route to 

9 the Oval Office and I have that time in my notes, just in 

,o case something happened. 

1 There’sareasonwedothis,incasesomet.hing 

2 stemmed from the ambulance or any of these people going 

3 through a different location, if something happened. 

4 Q And what time do you have in your notes for when 

5 the President moved to the Oval Offlice? 

6 A 9127 a.m. 

7 Q And you just told us that Monica Lewinsky came to 

8 the northwest gate at 8:45, approximately? 

9 A This was like -- no. 

0 Q I’m sorry, I missed the time. 

1 A No, this was -- 

2 Q 9:45? 

3 A 9140. 

4 Q Okay. So the President moved to the Oval Offtce 

5 before Monica Lewinsky showed up at the northwest gate, 

Page 2( 

I correct*? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Okay. All right. Now, did you hear any further 

4 conversation between Officer Hall and Monica Lewinsky? 

5 A No, I really didn’t pay attention. I did remember 

6 he said, “Where am you from?” I really didn’t pay attention 

7 to the conversation. 

8 Q And you were clearing in press people at the time, 

9 you said, right? 

0 A Right. Yes. 

1 Q And you had actual press people there who you were 

2 working to get cleamd through? 

3 A Yes, we did. 

4 Q How far away did you sit from Officer Hall? 

5 A It was -- probably from here -- 

6 Q To this gentleman sitting next to me? 

7 A To this gentleman here. Right. 

8 Q So about live feet, maybe? Approximately six feet? 

9 A A little closer. Maybe even a little closer. 

3 Q Okay. All right. And you said that Monica 

1 Lewinsky had gifts with her? 

2 A Yes, she did. 

3 Q Were they in anything? 

4 A ‘Ihey were in a shopping bag, a paper shopping bag, 

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I Q Were tbey wrapped? 1 arrive, but you did see ber leave. 

2 A 1 believe they were wmpped. 2 A &-reCt. 

3 Q Like gift wrapped? 3 Q And that was about four or five minutes after 

4 A Yes. Gift wrapped. 4 Monica left. 

5 Q And she said they were Christmas presents for the -c A Correct. 

6 President? Or presents for the President? 6 Q Okay. What happened next? Did you stay at that 

7 A She just said they were presents for the President. 7 post or did you go somewhere else? 

8 Q Okay. Do you remember whether they were wrapped 8 A I was the relief man for another post outside the 

9 , with Christmas paper? Do you have any recollection of that? 9 West Wing. 

0 A No. Just that they were wrapped in gift wrap. I I 0 Q What’s that post called? 

1 didn’t take any note of anything else. 1 1 A The post is designed as _ 

2 Q Had you seen Eleanor Mondale that day? I 2 Q And that’s a small building outside _ 

3 A Yes, I did. Shortly after we couldn’t get a hold 1 3 A correct. 

4 of Betty Cunie and she couldn’t get entry into the 1 4 Q And while you were there, were you alone? 

5 complex -- 1 5 A Yes. 

6 Q “She” being Monica? 1 6 Q Did there come a time when someone came to the post 

7 A Monica. She was a little bit perm&ed and she I 7 to talk to you? 

8 left. I 8 A Yes. 

9 Q At what point did she become perhubed? 1 9 Q Who wasthat? 

0 A When we couldn’t gain her access into the complex. 2 0 A Let me interject something here. During all this 

1 We couldn’t get a hold of Betty Currie. 2 1 timegoinga,therewasacallatthenorthwestgatefor 

2 Q Did she say anything, Monica? 2 2 SergeantWilliamstorespondtotheWestWingtomeetwith 

3 A No. 2 3 Betty Currie. Betty Currie wanted to meet with one of tk 

4 Q She just seemed -- pemubed is your word? 2 4 supervisors. 

5 A Yes. She was. 2 5 Q And that happened while you were still at the 

1 Page 2; Page 29 

1 Q Did she leave? 1 northwest gate? 

2 A Yes. she did. 2 A Shortly after Monica left. 

3 Q Did she say anything when she left? 3 Q Okay. Was Sergeant Williams there while Monica was 

4 A I don’t remember. 4 there? 

5 Q All right. And I had asked you if you ever saw 5 A No. 

5 Eleanor Mondale tbat day and you were about to tell me when. 6 Q Did he arrive after that? 

7 A Probably within about four minutes later -- 7 A Yes, 

3 Q After Monica left? 8 Q And he arrived at the northwest gate after Monica 

CJ A Afier Monica left. Eleanor briskly walked out the 9 left. 

1 northwest gate handing me her pass, almost throwing it to me. II 0 A Yes. 

I and I grabbed it out of ber hand. 1 1 Q And at some point, he received a call to go see 

Q Didsheseemtobeinahttny? 1. 2 Betty Cunie. 

A YS. I 3 A Yes. 

Q Did she sozm upset? 11 4 Q Andyouwetestilltbaeattbattime. 

A Yes. She looked a link bit upset. 1. 5 A Yes. 

Q Did she say anything? II 6 Q Okay. And did you hear anything about why mt 

A No. 17 ’ Williams was told to go to Betty Currie’s office at that 

Q Had you seen her before? 1: 8 time? Wasanything said? 

A YeS. I! 9 A No. Brian Hall and myself didn’t know. 

Q Did you see her when she came in that day? 21 3Q Did Sergeant Williams leave? 

A No. 2 I A Hewas--hewaslocated,herespondedtotheWest 

Q Were you at that post at the time she came in. if 2 2 Wing. 

2 

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3 you know? 

4 A No. 1 was on -- I believe I was on a break. 

5 Q Okay. So in 0th words..you didnt ’ sa: her 

3 Q He left from the trailer to go to the West Wing? I 

4 A Idon’tknowifhewasonabreakorwhat,buthe 

5 was called to the West Wing over the air, I believe. 

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1 Q Okay. But at some point, kc was in the trailer 

2 after Monica left. 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Okay. Andatsomepoinfkrtccivadacallto 

5 lrspond to the West Wing. 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q But you’n not sure whctk hc was in tk uaila 

8 atthattimcorsomcwhcrrelsc. 

9 A I don’t know. I don’t believe k was in tk 

0 trailer. 

1 Q AU right. Now, did you cva see Scqeant Williams 

2 again kfoIc you wmt to tk relief work at- Did 

3 ScrgrantWilliamsnzumfromhisvisittoEMyCurric 

4 befog you left tk txailcr at the northwest gate? 

5 A Ibekvekdid Hecamebackoutaudk 

6 appmackd Brian Hall and myself and k wanted to know who 

7 talked to Monica. 

8 Q Didktalktoyoutogctber? 

9 A Not at this time. 

0 Q Did k speak to you separately? 

1 A Atfust,itwasbotbofus,buttkawbcuImnt 

2 toCharlie-6-letmethiukkto. Ser8cantWilliamscaUcd 

3 for Captain Purdic to respond to tbc Wcat Wing tilso and ~ICU 

4 withhimtbcre. 

5 Q Now, when Sgcant Williams spoke to you and to 

Page 26 

Page 2 

1 says. “I didn’t mean anything by it.” 

2 I kind of ma~torul him and explainai. I says, 

3 “I don’t know why you - why did you - you don’t tell 

4 anybody whose business or who comes in and out this gate, 

5 you don’t tell anybody wlxe tk Ptesidmt is at any time. 

6 You dou’t do that.” 

7 Q And for tk record - I’m sorry. go ahead. 

8 A And I just advised him that we just clear people iu 

9 and out of here and it’s just all professional, you don’t 

0 tell anybody wk came in or when somebody clsc went. 

1 Period. 

2 Q And did Of&xx Hall tell tkt to Sergeant Williams 

3 while you were at tbc northwest gate wh Sergeant Williams 

4 came by to ask about it? 

5 A I don’t think so. I’m not S~KZ. 

6 Q Well. you said Sergeant Williams wanted to know who 

7 had told Monica that tk President was with Eleanor Mondale. 

8 A Brian later on, after all this thing was OVQ, tky 

9 cnlled tk otkr person at _ Stacey Portcr. myself, Purdie 

0 and Williams were tkrc and k asked who talked to Monica aud 

1 Briau admitted it, k said. “I did.” 

2 Q Okay. But at tk first round. this is, I take it. 

3 kfore Captain Purdic bad evca got involved when Sagcaat 

4 Williams come back from his visit with Betty Curt%. you were 

5 still at tk northwest gate, so was Brian Hall, and I take it 

Page 21 

1 Officer Hall about what happened, what did you say? 1 Captain Purdie wasn’t there at that time? 

2 A He wanted to know who talked to Monica at the gate. 2 A No. No. 

3 Throughout the course of the morning, this was -- I mean, 3 Q And Sergeant Williams asked who told Monica that 

4 this was ongoing. It was Iike -- it took a while. I guess 4 Eleanor Mondale was with the President and at that point, did 

6 there was some words exchanged in the West Wing. 1. was at 5 Officer Hall tell Sergeant Williams what had happened? At 

6 -and Captain Purdie and Williams came out to me. 6 that point. 

7 Q Okay. Before we get there, did Sergeant Williams 7 A 1 believe so. Yes. 

8 speak to you while you were still at the northwest gate? 3 Q To your memory. 

9 Initially. ? A Yes. 

0 A Yes, he did. He mentioned he had spoken to Betty 3 Q Did you tell Sergeant Williams what you heard? 

1 Currie. I A Yes. We -- 

2 Q Did he say whether he had spoken to the President? 2 Q Did you tell Sergeant Williams? 

3 A Yes, he did. 3 A No. 

4 Q What did he say? 3 Q No? 

5 A He stated that the President wanted somebody fired 5 A No. 

6 out here. So it’s like we were looking at each other like, 5 Q Did Sergeant Williams ask you whether you had 

7 you know, like, what? It’s like we didn’t have any idea what 7 overheard Officer Hall having any conversation with Monica? 

S was going on. He said, “Who told Monica that the President 3 A No. 

9 was with Eleanor?” 3 Q Okay. Did he talk to you at all, Sergeant 

D Q And was there any response? 1 Wiiliams? Other than asking who talked to Monica? 

1 A Later on, them was -- yes. Brian spoke up and - I A No, Captain Purdie did most of the talking. 

2 well, he told me during the interim before all of this, he 1 Q And that was later. 

3 said -- when al1 the stuff started happening in the West s A Yes. tater. 

4 Wing, Brian told me, he said, “Ski, I thought they were 1 Q Okay. We’ll get to that in a moment. But getting 

5 friends. 1 thought Monica and Eleanor were friends.” He 5 back to Sergeant Wiliiams for a moment, you said that -- now 

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we’re confining our discussion to this first visit by 

Sugemt Williams. This is after he speaks to Betty Tie. 

apparently. He comes back. You’re there. Hall’s there. And 

at that time. I believe you testified that !!@unt Williams 

said that the President wanti someOne fuul. comet? 

A Rig&. 

Q And did !%-geant Williams say that lx himself bad 

spoken to tbc Resident or that tbis is a message tbat was 

given to him by someone else or was that some other way that 

be learned tbat tbe President wanted someone f&? 

A He stated that be was in Betty Cur+s office and 

be spoke to tlx President and wc kind of looked at each otber 

like - Brian HalI and I looked at each other like - you 

know, there’s no way. It’s like - we tbougbt be’s goat to be 

kidding. I mean. it’s like -- be was serious. 

Q Hardtobelkve? 

A It was bard to believe. 

Q Okay. Did be tell you anything else. Sergeant 

Williams? He said that he’d spoken to Ihe President and be 

said the President wanted someone fired? 

A Right. 

Q Yes? 

A The President wants somebody’s job out here. 

Q Okay. So what happened then? Wtere did you go? 

A I went toe outside the West Wing. 

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Q Okay. And that’s another post and we already 

established you were there by yourself. And at some point 

you got a visit from someone. Who was that? 

A That was Captain Purdie. He happened to be the 

watch commander on the whole complex that day. The watt 

commander is in charge of overseeing incidents and all 

reports happening on the grounds everywhere. 

THE FOREPERSON: We’re going to take a break in 

few minutes. 

MS. WIRTH: Do you want to take a break? 

THE FOREPERSON: when you find a logical time. 

MS. WIRTH: Okay. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q So when Captain Purdie came to your-post, what 

did he say to you? 

A He came out to me and he said, “I was just in the 

Oval Office with the President and he wants somebody’- 

out here.” And I couldn’t -- I couldn’t understand why. 

He said, “Who talked to Monica?” And I told him 

Brian had talked to her briefly. I didn’t really focus on 

the conversation. 

Q Did Captain Purdie tell you that he himself had 

spoken to the President? 

A Yes. 

Q And when you say -- you expressed surprise a momen 

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ago that Captain Purdie would say that the President would 

want someone’s job or-r whatever it was. Is tbat 

because you couldn’t see any reason for why anybody would get 

firul o\a wbat bad happened? 

A That’s correct. 

Q foaextxune? 

A He also - be also stated tttat nothing ever 

happened. He says, “As far as you’le conamed,” be says, 

‘This IKVCT happened.” 

And I turned it around on bim. I says, ‘what 

do you mean? You’re acting like today never existed.” 

And be said. ‘That’s right.” 

And I just shook my bead. That’s when I started 

making a set of my own notes on this wbok little incident 

befe. 

MS. WIRTH: Do you want to take a little break now? 

THE FOREPERSON: Yes. 

MS. WIRTH: Okay. 

THE FOREPERSON: We’ll take a &n-minute break 

0 returning at 3:O0. 

I Officer Nicdzwicclci. you can be excused for ten 

2 minutes. 

3 THE WITNESS: Can I just - can I say something? 

4 THE FOREPERSON: Sun. 

5 THE WITNESS: I just want to say this is -- I guess 

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I’m a little nervous. I mean. I’ve spent my life in this 

job. I mean. I’m a littk apprehensive of, you know, 

testifying and all this. It’s a big thing. 

I guess a lot of us in tbis. maybe a couple of us, 

are in fear of what could happen from tbe job to what we’re 

saying ixre. I don’t know, but - you know, HIC all put our 

life in this job. That’s all. 

MS. WIRTH: Thank you. 

THE FOREPERSON: I-bank you. 

MS. WIRTH: Thank you very much. 

(Witness excused. Witness rccallai.) 

THE FOREPERSON: Officer Nicdmiczki, I’d just like 

to remind you that you’re still undo oath. Plasm have a 

seat. 

THE WITNESS: Yea. ma’axn. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q Officer, you yla talking about a conversation that 

you bad with Captain Purdk at tbtvst and you told us 

that Captain Purdk said to you some&@ to the &ct of 

“As far as you’re concerned, &is nevcx bappe&,” and tbcn 

you said something to tbe effect of ‘You’re acting as if 

today never existed” and that Captain Purdie said something 

to the cffat of ‘That’s rigbc” correct? 

A Right. He also ma~tionai hat nothing would mm 

becomeoftbis,so-Imean,nobodywillevu-Igucss 

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through the discttssioo or whatever, he had talked with Betty 

Cm-tie or the President, nothing would ever happen to us. 

Q Okay. In other words, no one would be finx. 

A Correct. 

Q Or disciplined. 

A tirrect. 

Q And, in fact, no one ever was, to your knowledge, 

correct? 

A &rect. 

Q Now, you said that when Captain Purdie said to 

you, you know, “As far as you’re concerned, this never 

happened,” and you said, “I said to him, ‘You’re acting as 

if today never existed,‘” and he said, “Thats ’ right,” you 

said “It was then that I started keeping my notes.” 

A “bats ’ right. 

Q Was it that very day that you wrote down what 

happened or at some other point? 

A Right after he left my position, I started making 

some notes for myself. 

Q Okay. So that very day. 

A Yes.. 

Q So those notes were made on the day that this 

incident occurred. 

A Yes. 

Q When your memory was very fresh. 

Page 34 

i A Yes, ma’am. 

2 Q Okay. Now, did Captain Putdie ever say to you who, 

3 if anyone, told bim to say that nothing happened? If anyone 

4 did. 

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Did he ever say that - you know, when be said to 

you, “As far as you’re concerned. this never happened,” did 

h: evfz say that be was giving you that message on somume’s 

instructions or was that just coming from him or did he even 

say at all? 

A That was just coming from him. 

Q Okay. AU right. Now. did you have any furtbez 

contact with Captain Purdie that day or Sergeant Williams? 

A Yes. 

Q Did there come a time when you were called away 

from thehost? Or wbat hap-? Tell us wbat bppexd. 

A I bad to go back to the northwest gate to finish up 

another hour or so and - 

Q Because you had relieved somebody at-d now 

the relief was ova? 

A Correct. Now thcteliefwas back. Sowewere 

putting tbc story together down these. Captain Furdie - we 

were all asking - everybody was asking questions, wbo talked 

and what was said and all this and we just kept it amongst 

those people thex at the no&west gate and whoever was in 

ttm West Wing there. 

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1 about? 

2 A Just --just that the --just what had taken place. 

3 Brent said that somebody wanted one of the supervisors in 

1 here quick. He was at the -lobby entrance. He was asking 

5 me, you know, Betty wanted to see somebody and then just -- 

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Q All n&t. So YOU went back to the northwest gate 

and did anything happen when you returned in relation to thi! 5 j 

incident? Did you have any further discussions with Captain I 

Purdie or Sergeant Williams? 

A No. Ko. I dont ’ believe -- no. 

Q Okay. So that was the end of the incident for that 

day, as far as you were concerned, or did you speak to 

anybody else about it that day? 

A That’s it. The mfftccr, we talked to Brent 

Chincry. He was in there. 

Q Whos ’ “we”? 

A Brian Hall and myself. 

Q And wbcn did that conversation take place? 

A Probabiy during the interim, during all this, at 

one time. 

Q That day? 

A Yes. 

Q On the phone or in person? 

A On the telephone. 

Q Okay. Do you rcmembcr what that conversatia was 

Page 36 

just about the whole incident going on. He said Purdie had 

talked to him also. 

Q Did Brent Chinery say that Captain Purdie had also 

told him words to the effect that you had been told, that 

this never happened? 

A Repcat that, please? 

Q Did Officer Chinery tell you that Captain Purdie 

had said to him words similar to what Captain Purdie had sai’ 

to you, to the effect this never happened? 

A Idon’t remember that. 

Q Did Offmer Chinery ever tell you if he had had any 

conversations with Sergeant Williams about the event? 

A I don’t believe so. 

Q Did Oflicer Chinery ever tell you whether Sergeant 

Williams had spokLm directly to the President? 

A No. 

Q Have you heard from anyone whether Sergeant 

Williams has spoken directly to the President? 

A I have no knowledge of that. 

Q Except that you told us that when Sergeant Williams 

spoke to you earlier - 

A Based on what he had said, yes. 

Q Did he -- 

A I have no knowledge of what happened inside because 

1 was not near those areas. 

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In Re: Grand Jury Proceedings Mu: 

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I Q But you testified earlier that Sergeant William_ 

2 told you that he spoke to the President himself. 

3 A Yes. Yes. That’s correct. That’s correct. 

4 Q Okay. You mentioned Stacey Porter. He’s another 

5 officer, uniformed oflicer? 

6 A He was also there. 

7 Q Was he present when Monica came to the northwest 

8 gate? Do you know? 

9 A I’m not sure if he was there for a couple of 

I 0 minutes or what. 

I 1 Q Do you know if he knows anything about this? 

1 2 A Yes, he does. 

1 3 Q What does he know? 

1 4 A He was asked when we were all there at the gate, 

I 5 Sergeant Williams was asking us questions who talked to 

1 6 Monica. 

1 7 Q And did Stacey Porter say that he had? 

1 8 A I don’t remember. 

1 9 Q When you said Stacey Porter knows something about 

2 0 this, what does he know? If you know. 

2 1 A Just that all of us people involved in this -- wbo 

2 2 was working that day and basically that’s it. 

2 3 Q Okay. Do you know if Sergeant Williams spoke to 

2 4 Stacey Porter? 

2 5 A Yes, he asked him at the same time he asked Hall 

and myself. 

Page 3 

Q And do you remember what Stacey Porter said in 

response to Sergeant Williams? 

A No, I don’t remember. 

Q Okay. All right. After that day, have you had any 

conversations with anybody about this? Except for your 

lawyers. 

A Just a couple of people who were involved with it, 

Brent Chinety, and just amongst ourselves. 

Q And did you leant anything further in any of these 

conversations? 

A No. Tbere is a rumor - there is talk going around 

the area about what Captain Purdie may have been invited to 

dinner in the residence, but I’m not sure. 

Q And when was that dinner supposed to have taken 

place? 

A I have no idea. 

Q Who did you hear that from? 

A Other officers. Nobody specifically, it’s just 

talk that’s going around the complex. 

Q This is old talk or relatively recent talk? 

A Kind of just surfaced last week. 

Q Do you know anybody who said that? 

A Just -- it’s like locker room talk. 

Q I know, but do you remember anybody specific who 

Pa-gem Thursday, July 30,1998 

Page 39 

I said it? 

2 A Justoneperson. 

3 Q Who is that? 

4 A John Connolly. 

5 Q John Connolly? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Is that a uniformed division person? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Is he an offtcer like yourself? 

0 A Yes. 

1 Q Didhesayhowheknewthis? 

2 A He had just -- he mentioned be just heard it from 

3 somebody. 

4 Q Did you hear this from anybody else? 

5 A Brent Chinery. 

6 Q HealsosaidtbatbeheardtbatCaptainPurdiewas 

7 invited to a dinner in the residence? 

8 A He had mentioned something. 

9 Q Have you heard it from anybody else? 

:0 A No. 

:1 Q From either Off&r Connolly or Gfficcr Cbinety, 

2 did either one of them telI you when this dinner took place? 

3 A They had no knowledge. 

4 BY MR. PAGE: 

5 Q Do you know if any uniformed officer has ever been 

Page 41 

1 invited to the residence for a dinner? 

2 A 

3 Q 

4 A 

5 Q 

6 A 

7 Q 

No, 1 don’t know that. 

You’re unaware of that? 

I’m unaware of that. Yes. 

The notes that you identified earlier as GN-2? 

Yes. 

Are those the actual notes that you started writing 

8 1216197 or are they a second version or a copy? 

9 A It’s a copy, sir. 

0 Q They’re a copy. 

1 A Yes. 

2 Q Butthoseamacopyoftbeactualnotes3 A Ye& sir. 

4 Q - that you started penning af?er Purclie left. 

5 A Yes, sir. 

6 Q Who else knows about the existence of the notes 

7 besides your lawyers? 

8 A Nobody. 

9 Q Nobody? 

0 A And legal counsel of the Secmt savice. Because I 

I had to ask them questions about tbe sector shalt, wbetber it 

2 was -- it has nothing to do the -- 

3 BY MS. WIRTI-I: 

4 Q Whether it was something you could turn over? 

5 A Right. Security. 

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1 A JUROR: Officer Nkdzwiecki, did &rty Grie at 

2 any tim call you or Officer Hall wbik you were at tk 

ttaikr that day? 

THE WlTNEss: May have wben I wasnt ’ time. I 

don’t Kmanbu wkzl I was tkm. 

A JUROR: But to your knowledge, during tk time 

you wue tbaz she did not call? 

THE WlTNBsS: I have no - you’re right. You’re 

conux. 

A JUROR: ‘Ibank you. 

A JUROR: Officer Niiki, did I understand you 

to say Monica bad an appointment on tbe 6th with Baty 

Currie? 

THE WlTNESS: Sk bad &owed up at tk gate and 

mcntionaltbat&hadanappointnxmttoseeBeayCorrieand 

WC didn’t find any appointment in tbc computer list CI on the 

SC_. 

A JUROR: Thank you. 

A JUROR: I just wondacd what motivated you to 

start taking notes. 

THB WlTNESS: Aftcz Captain pun-lie bad told me tbat 

nothing ever happetted and this is aU you know - it mill be 

gone tomorrow, it will be just anotkr day, I just shodr my 

head and just started writing a couple of notes. 

A JUROR: Because? 

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I TKE WITNESS: I couldn’t believe it. 

2 A JUROR: Did you say when Sergeant Williams met 

3 with yourself and Brian, did you also say he met with another 

t officer as well? 

5 THE WITNESS: Yes. Later on. Staccy Porter. Yes. 

5 A JUROR: Later on or did he meet with just the two 

7 of you first and then the three of you? 

3 THE WITNESS: He initially met with both of us and 

3 then all three of us later at the end. Because Stacey was on 

1 break later and he came up and we all talked. 

I A JUROR: And did you again maybe talk to Sergeant 

! Williams by yourself and Brian by himself or did that ever 

t happen? 

I THE WITNESS: No. Weweretogether. 

i BY MR. PAGE: 

j Q What did you make of this comment from Connolly 

r about Purdie’s invitation to dinner at the residence? 

I A I asked him how did he hear about this. 

) Q You asked Connolly that? 

1 A Yes. I said, “Is this just a rumor?” And I said, 

1 “Do you know for sure? Is this a fact or is this a rumor?” 

2 And he says, “No.’ He says, “I just heard it.” And I says, 

3 “Well.” That was it. 

4 Q Did Connolly say from whom he heard the rumor? 

5 A No, sir. 

Page 4: 

1 BY Ms. WlRTH: 

2 Q Did Off&r Cbineq tell you wbo be beard i{ from? 

3 A No. ma’am. 

4 A JUROR: Excuse me. What implication did you draw 

5 from tk fact if be bad been invitai to tbc residence? what 

6 possibk results would occur f&m that? 

7 THE WITNESS: W-bat would bappm? 

8 A JUROR: Well, I almost get the feeling - 

9 TKE WITNESS: Wbat prompted bim to be asked for 

0 dinner? 

1 A JUROR: No, no. I get the feeling that being 

2 tbat that’s being talked about that people are viewing it 

3 with some sort of trepidation or as some m of sign &at 

4 something’s happening. 

5 Wbat possible implications could you take from the 

6 fact. if tkre is a fact that Captain Ptrdie bad dinner at 

7 tbe rsidence? Do you think it means somdhing -- 

8 THE WlTT’JESS: Personally? 

9 A JUROR: Yes. 

0 THE WITNESS: It’s my belief that maybe if bc bad 

J some kind of conversation with the President. maybe be was 

2 invited upstairs. I don’t know. maybe to smooth this thing 

3 over. I dont ’ know. I have no idea. 

4 A JUROR: To smooth it over ratkr than to escalate 

5 it. 

Page& 

1 THE WITNESS: Right. 

2 A JUROR: I see. 

3 THE WITNESS: I have no idea if there was in 

fact -- I have no proof of this. It’s just what I heard. 

A JUROR: 1 was just wondering why did you feel 

that need to document it? Why exactly did it need to be 

docunxmted? 

THE WITNESS: why did I-- 

A JUROR: You felt the incident wasn’t finished, 

but -- 

THE WITNESS: We document a lot of notes. I 

have -- like the ambulance numbers and stuff. I mean, for 

records, just show it. I was in a very elite group, 

traveling around for the President, we take -- I mean, a lot 

of notes and details. To me, this is a major event. I 

mean -- 

A JUROR: Could you correct me if I’m wrong, but do 

you normally keep logs of all activities, especially if 

they’re of a unique nature? Normally keep a log of all those 

incidents that may -- 

THE WITNESS: The Secret Service? 

A JUROR: Yes. Do you not keep a log of any 

!3 incidents? Especially being out at the gate. 

!4 THE WITNESS: Oh, there usually is, if there am 

!5 incidents to report. Yes. 

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A JUROR: But this one would be one thaw would be 

‘mttcd based on your supervisors coming to tell you that it 

&dn’t happen. 

THE WITNESS: Right. 

A JUROR: Thank you. 

BY MR. PAGE: 

Q Had he not come and said that. would you have 

_pcwatal an unusual incident report or would Williams or 

another person in the chain of command? 

A It was in the chain. It would be somebody from the 

chain of command. sir. It should - YOU know. it should have 

been Captain Purdie to initial some type further report on 

tk whole incident I believe. 

Q And what would the report have btxn called? What 

available labels do we have for repon~ that you officers 

generate? 

A It’s an incident report. 

Q Isthataform.agovemm erlt form. that’s 

available? 

A No. sir. No special form. but I believe that any 

contact with the President is supposed to be given to another 

supervisor and above to the type levels. If the President 

had spoken to me. I would have advised my supervisor what had 

bappencd. Captain Purdie is a watch commander and he should 

have I believe, advised somebody else. 

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Q Is this why when Purdie tells you “This didn’t 

happen” and I see you here today when you repeat that, you’n 

shaking your head and you did that day, apparently? You 

disagree? 

A Personaliy, that’s correct. 

Q And is that because you felt that there was an 

obligation m some person to generate a report about this 

because of the presidential contact with a uniformed officer? 

A He was a supervisor and he should have. 

Q Are there Secret Service rules, regs or guidelines 

that tell you and Purdie and others when to write an incident 

report? 

A There are guidelines. Any unusual incident, sure. 

Somebody comes up to the gate and files a report or wants to 

speak to a supervisor because somebody stated something 

against that person, there’s ways of handling every 

situation. 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q Where have you kept your notes since the day that 

you took them? 

A Yes. 

Q Where have you kept them? 

A In a jacket. 

Q No, since the day that you made the notes, where 

have they been? 

1 A 

2 Q 

3 A 

4 Q 

5 A 

6 Q 

7 A 

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In a pocket. 

In a pocket of your jacket? 

Yes. 

Okay. Steadily since December 6th? 

Mm-hnun. 

Okay. And is it a work jacket? 

Yes. 

MS. WIRTI-I: Okay. We’re going to ask -- 

A JUROR: I just have one question. 

MS. WIRTH: Sure. 

A JUROR: Officer, did you feel -- I mean, just 

P2$57 

2 listening to you, it seems that this was an 

3 extmordinarily - it was not a real infraction that you saw 

4 but a real extraordinary amount of higher up involvemen: 13 

5 this. Did you make anything of this? Was there something 

6 else that you felt had been done wrong? 

7 THE WITNESS: Say that again? 

8 A JUROR: Okay. From what you mentiorted, a la of 

9 people got in trouble, if you want to.use that, because of 

0 some incident that happened. I believe initially you said 

1 that you did not feel it was something that was so egregiazs 

2 that somebody would lose their job over this. 

3 THE WITNESS: No, I just -- at first -- it was a 

4 shock to me that somebody had spoken to the president. 

5 That’s all. 

Pq 40 

1 A JUROR: It just seemed to me from what you m 

2 saying there was a lot of activity by higbcr up people - 

3 THEwlTNE!s: 0hycs.tbmwas. 

4 A JUROR: Was that unusual. given the incident? 

5 THE WITNESS: Yes. there was a lot of activity. 

6 A JUROR: But was the activity out of proportion to 

7 the incident? Just in your opinion. 

s THE WITNESS: I don’t beheve it was out of 

9 proportion. 

3 BY Ms. WIRTH: 

1 Q Letme~ytoktbtqucstion.ifIundastandtbt 

2 question, What bappased at the gate between Off~ccs HaII and 

3 Monica Lewinsky. whatever was said therq do you think that 

4 all of the things that flowui from that even& including 

5 Sergeant Williams and Captain Purdie getting caIIai up to tk 

5 Oval Office, according to what you’ve been told you know, 

7 Sergeant WiIliams spa&ing to tk Rsident Captain Ptudie 

B speaking to tbs Pmsident I think the grand juror’s question 

3 is all those things that flowed from what happened betwao 

3 Hall and Monica, did aII of that sam out of proportion to 

I what was said bcrw&n Hall and Monica? 

2 A I think it was a mistmdcrstanding. 

3 Q Do you think much too much was made out of whateve 

1 Off& HaII said to Monica? 

5 A Ibeheveso,ycs. 
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1 Q Da you think that wh you kard, you know. that 1 complaint that was made to a supervisor. tit if any ranai~ 

2 somo3nc might k fired o\u this that that was somahing that 2 or what if any action would be taken against the person who 

3 was too much for whatmr happcnod hat ktwaxt Hall and 3 told the visitor either what tk President’s location was 

4 Monica? 4 or - 

5 A Yes. 5 A That officer would probably be counsekd or spokar 

6 A JUROR: Thank you 6 to by anotha supervisor. 

7 A JUROR: Excust mt. That sort of raises anotkr 7 Ms. WIRTH: Okay. WE’rc going to ask you to step 

8 question. Was tk tone in tk talk between Office Hall and 8 out for a few minutes and we’ll call you back in in just a 

9 Ms.Lewinslcy,wastbxeanythinginthetonebeusedthat 9 few minutes. 

1 0 would make lxx feel that sk was being insuIted or that she 0 THE WITNESS: Sun. 

1 1 was being mocked? Or was it just a straight achange of 1 MS. WIRTH: T&k you. 0ff1cer. 

1 2 information? 2 (Witness excused. Witness tccallcd.) 

1 3 THE WlTNESS: It was nothing that sk was king 3 THE FOREPERSON: I just wanted to let you know you 

1 4 mockaL It was a casual conversation. 4 811: excused. Thank you very much for your testimony. 

1 5 A JUROR: Okay. Just casual. Itwasn’t “Get in 5 MS. WIRTH: Thank you. 

1 6 lirle_ you’re ncJcL” or somcth@ like that? 6 (Tbc witness was excused.) 

I 7 THE WITNESS: No. No. It was never like&at. As 7 (Wkrcupon. at 3:28 p.m.. the taking of testimony 

I 8 a matter of fact. thae wasn’t anybody else waiting and we 8 in the presence of a full quorum of the Grand Jury was 

1 9 tried to really klp - usuaIly when somebody comes to see 9 concluded.) 

2 0 Betty Currie we -- you know. we extend courtesy and everybody 0 l .*t+ 

2 1 is very polite and it’s bow tbey’re treati. We didn’t make 

2 2 her stay out in the cold, m Itt her stand inside there. 

2 3 A JUROR: So it was just tk content of tk 

2 4 information that was passed. 

2 5 THE WlTNESS: Yes, sir. 

Page SC 

1 A JUROR: Ratkr than tk way it was passed. 

2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

3 A JUROR: Thank you. 

4 A JUROR: During your time at the White House. has 

5 there eva occurred anotkr incident similar, maybe just 

6 among you, maybe it didn’t get to Betty Currie or the Oval 

7 Oftice, but someone came in and somconc was the and 

8 mentionat the President’s location? 

9 What would the conscqucnces have ban just tkn if 

1 0 that happened and you - because I kard you say you’re not 

1 1 supposed to say where Ibe Presidmt is. Is thmz some kind 

I 2 of repercussion for that or reprimand for that? 

1 3 THE WITNESS: No. it’s just the standard training. 

1 4 I mean, nobody -- if you WQC. for instance. going to see 

1 5 somebody in tk West Wing I wouldn’t tell somebody else 

I 6 coming behind you where - if some press reporter came up and 

I 7 asked where you went, that’s nobody’s business. 

1 8 BY MS. WIRTI-L 

1 9 Q I think tk question was. though if on an ordinary 

2 0 day a person came up to tk northwest gate, a visitor. any 

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2 the President’s location was or who k was with. and a 

1 complaint perhaps was made to somebody on Sergeant Williams’ 

8 kvel or on Captain Purdie’s level. but it never reached 

S Betty Currie or tbe President. it was just somelhing - a 

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 

FCR THE DIS:RICT OF COLUMBIA 

_- -__- -_- - _ - - - - 

IN RE: 

GRAND JURY PROCEEDINGS 

_- -_- - - -___- -__ 

Grand Jury Room No. 3 

United States District Court 

for the District of Columbia 

3rd & Constitution, N.W. 

Washington, D.C. 

Wednesday, August 5, 1998 

The testimony of GARY NIEDZWIECKI was taken in the 

presence of a full quorum of Grand Jury 97-2, impaneled on 

September 19, 1997 commencing at 4:29 p.m. before: 

3121 

EDWARD PAGE 

Associate Independent Counsel 

MARY ANNE WIRTH 

Office of Independent Counsel 

1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 

Suite 490 North 

Washington, D.C. 20004 

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2 

CONTENTS 

WITNESS: TAGE 

Gary Niedzwiecki 3 

GRANDJURY 

No. GN-2 - 

EXHIBITS: 

Mr. Niedzwiecki's notes 

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Whereupon, 

PROCEED IXGS 

GARY NIEDZWIECKI 

was called as a witness and, having been first duly sworn by 

the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and testified 

as follows: 

EXAMINATION 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q Officer Niedzwiecki, do you remember the rights as 

they were given to you last time you appeared, your rights as 

a witness? 

A Yes. 

Q You understood them, and you understand them today? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. I'm just going to show you Grand Jury 

Exhibit GN-2, which is a copy of the notes that you produced, 

or is the copy of the notes that you produced the last time 

you came. 

A Yes. Yes. 

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. GN-2 

was marked for identification.) 

BY MS. WIRTH: 

Q I'm just going to ask you to read them into the 

record. Starting at the beginning, read all of your notes 

into the record. 

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A From the beginning, it starts at Saturday, 12-6-97. 

And it was my day off. I was assigned at Alpha-r, Northwest 

Gate. 

The watch commander for that day was Captain 

Purdie. I was assigned with Brian Hall, Stacy Porter. I was 

assigned specifically for _ magnetometer. 

That's helping clear -- clear people through a 

magnetometer, and checking -- that's including checking press 

people with all their gear and going through, making sure 

there's no weapons and, on the individual person himself, 

also making sure there's no weapons on him or her, coming in. 

Q Okay. Officer, I'm going to ask you just to read 

the notes. 

A Oh, okay. 

Q What you just gave us was an explanation of what it 

means to be on the magnetometer, right? 

A Okay. Yes _ 

Q But, from now on, let's just read the notes, and 

then, at the end, if you have any explanations you want to 

give, you can do that. 

A I'm sorry. 

Q That's okay. 

A This is _ mag. at 11:30. I was to give Post 

_ a relief at 11:30, and then again at 9:00 a.m. 

Q Is -the Northwest gate? 

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A m was ttie outside. 

a A little hut outside? 

A Positioned outside the West Wing. 

;r Mm-hmm. 

A I was talking 100 yard zeroes with Louis, other 

person, earlier that morning. At 9:12, a woman apparently 

had a stroke. Dr. Moreno responded. An ambulance responded 

at the press area. 

At 9:27, the President was en route to the Oval 

Office. Also, at that time, Ambulance Number 9432 D.C. Fire 

showed up, at 9:40 a.m. in the morning. 

The second page, the second side of this note 

states that Monica Lewinsky -- 

Q I'm just going to interrupt you here. These are 

the notes that pertain to the incident that occurred on the 

Northwest Gate; is that correct? 

A Correct. 

Q And these are the notes that you took after you had 

your conversation with Captain Purdie that you told us about 

last week? 

A That's correct. 

Q All right. Continue. Just read those. 

A Monica Lewinsky -- I had a question mark, because 

of the spelling -- said she had presents for the POTUS. She 

showed up at m, Northwest Gate. Officer Hall had asked her 

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if she had an appointment. And I didn't -- I didn't write 

the response. 

But it says, he told her to use the outside 

telephone to contact Betty Currie. Betty Currie was not 

available, and she let -- she stated that to Brian Hall. 

Brian Hall let her in, because it was cold that 

night -- that morning, I mean. Tried calling _, Tyler, to 

see if -- to see if he could locate Betty Currie for an 

appointment. 

Brent Chinery was on Post-, which is the -- 

Q Just read. Just read. 

A Okay. 

Q Okay. 

A I'm sorry. 

Q That's all right. 

A While inside-, - post, Brian Hall told Monica 

he could not get a hold of Betty Currie, said she must be 

busy. He mentioned Mondale was visiting with Betty Currie, 

or with Currie. And I wrote "and." 

Watch Commander Purdie and Sergeant Williams called 

in -- were called into the Oval Office, told me at rlr 

nothing ever happened. And Captain Purdie stated that 

nothing ever happened. It wasn't Sergeant Williams. I just 

want to make sure of that, for the record. 

Q Okay. 

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A AZ-_:/ -- any clarifi cation or anything else you need 

with the note here, 1'11 be glad to explain. 

Q Okay. And you were about to tell us in the middle, 

that E-4 post is the West Wing lobby; is that right? 

A Yes, ma'am. __ is the West Wing, directly in 

front of the entrance, where the -- usually, the -- it's in 

the West Wing lobby entrance, where people respond and where 

the President's secretary, or West Wing secretary is. 

Q Okay. And that's where Officer Chinery was posted 

that day? 

A Yes, ma'am. 

MS. WIRTH: Okay. Any questions? 

(No response.) 

MS. WIRTH: Seeing none, the Forelady's permission? 

THF FOREPERSON: You may be excused. 

MS. WIRTH: Thank you, sir. Thank you, Officer 

Niedzwiecki for coming back. 

(The witness was excused.) 

(Whereupon, at 4:35 p.m., the taking of the 

testimony in the presence of a full quorum of the Grand Jury 

was concluded.) 

l * * * * 

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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 

I, Elizabeth J. Walker, the reporter for the Unite 

States Attorney's Office, do hereby certify that the witness whos 

testimony appears in the foregoing pages was first duly sworn b 

the foreperson or the deputy foreperson of the grand jury whe 

there was a full quorum of the grand jury present; that th 

testimony of said witness was taken by me by stenotype and 

thereafter, reduced to typewritten form; and that the transcrip 

is a true record of the testimony given by said witness. 

- ~ I 

~. 

r I /. 

Elizabeth J. Walker 

, Official Reporter 

/ 

Transcriber 

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