Exhibit H

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USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

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(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

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 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

 FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW JERSEY

 CIVIL ACTION NO. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD

KIMBERLEE WILLIAMS, et al.,

 Plaintiffs,

 vs.

BASF CATALYSTS, LLC, et al.,

 Defendants.

 ------------

 Monday, January 15, 2018

 ------------

 Stenographic Transcript of Oral

Argument, taken at the law offices of Ballard Spahr,

1735 Market Street, 48th Floor, Philadelphia, PA,

before Robert J. Boccolini, Certified Court Reporter,

on the above date, commencing at 10:30 a.m., there

being present:

 BALLARD SPAHR, LLP

 Woodland Falls Corporate Park

 210 Lake Drive East, Suite 200

 Cherry Hill, NJ 08002

 BY: ROBERTO RIVERA-SOTO, ESQ.

 SPECIAL MASTER

 WILLIAM P. REILEY, ESQ.

 - - - - - -

 TATE & TATE

 Certified Court Reporters

 The Ironstone Village

 520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1

 Medford, New Jersey 08055

 (856) 983-8484 - (800) 636-8283

 www.tate-tate.com

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1 APPEARANCES CONTINUED:

2

 COHEN, PLACITELLA & ROTH, PC

3 Two Commerce Square, Suite 2900

 2001 Market Street

4 Philadelphia, PA 19103

 BY: CHRISTOPHER M. PLACITELLA, ESQ.

5 HARRY M. ROTH, ESQ.

 MICHAEL COREN, ESQ.

6 Attorneys for Plaintiffs

7

 KIRKLAND & ELLIS, LLP

8 655 Fifteenth Street, N.W.

 Washington, D.C. 20005-5793

9 BY: PETER A. FARRELL, ESQ.

 EUGENE F. ASSAF, P.C.

10 Attorneys for Defendant BASF Catalysts, LLC

11

 CONNELL FOLEY, LLP

12 56 Livingston Avenue

 Roseland, NJ 07068

13 BY: ROBERT E RYAN, ESQ.

 Attorneys for Cahill Defendants

14

15 LEVY KONIGSBERG, LLP

 800 Third Avenue, 11th Floor

16 New York, NY 10022

 BY: BRENDAN E. LITTLE, ESQ.

17 Attorneys for Defendants Thomas W. Bevan and

 Bevan & Associates LPA, Inc.,

18 and James F. Early

19

TELEPHONIC PARTICIPANTS:

20

 ROBINSON MILLER, LLC

21 One Newark Center, 19th Floor

 Newark, NJ 07102

22 BY: JUSTIN T. QUINN, ESQ.

 Attorneys for Defendant BASF Catalysts, LLC

23

24 VINCENT MONTALTO, ESQ.

 Senior Litigation Counsel

25 BASF Catalysts, LLC

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1 TELEPHONIC PARTICIPANTS CONTINUED:

2

 KIRKLAND & ELLIS, LLP

3 655 Fifteenth Street, N.W.

 Washington, D.C. 20005-5793

4 BY: DANIEL A. BRESS, ESQ.

 Attorneys for Defendant BASF Catalysts, LLC

5

6 WILLIAMS & CONNOLLY, LP

 725 12th Street N.W.

7 Washington, DC 20005

 BY: CASSANDRA B. FIELDS, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Cahill Defendants

9

 MARINO, TORTORELLA & BOYLE, PC

10 437 Southern Boulevard

 Chatham, NJ 07929

11 BY: JOHN A. BOYLE, ESQ.

 Attorneys for Defendant Arthur A. Dornbusch

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: Good morning, everyone.

2 Happy Martin Luther King Day to everybody.

3 Could I get the appearances of counsel,

4 starting with the plaintiffs, please.

5 MR. PLACITELLA: Christopher Placitella

6 on behalf of the plaintiffs.

7 MR. COREN: Michael Coren on behalf of

8 the plaintiffs.

9 MR. ROTH: Harry Roth on behalf of the

10 plaintiffs.

11 MR. FARRELL: Peter Farrell on behalf of

12 defendant BASF.

13 MR. ASSAF: Gene Assaf for BASF.

14 MR. RYAN: Robert Ryan for the Cahill

15 defendants.

16 MS. FIELDS: Cassandra Fields, Williams

17 & Connolly, on behalf of the Cahill defendants.

18 MR. LITTLE: Brendan Little on behalf of

19 the Bevan firm.

20 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Miss Fields,

21 you got a little bit ahead of us, but that's okay.

22 Anyone else who's on the own phone?

23 MR. BOYLE: John Boyle for defendant

24 Arthur Dornbusch.

25 SPECIAL MASTER: Welcome, Mr. Boyle.

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1 MR. BOYLE: Thank you.

2 MR. BRESS: Dan Bress for BASF, your

3 Honor.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: You're the one I can

5 thank for the e-mail yesterday afternoon.

6 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes, thank you.

7 SPECIAL MASTER: Anyone else?

8 MR. QUINN: Good morning, your Honor.

9 This is Justin Quinn for BASF.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: Good morning, Mr.

11 Quinn.

12 Anyone else?

13 MR. MONTALTO: Your Honor, Vince

14 Montalto, in-house counsel for BASF.

15 SPECIAL MASTER: I'm sorry, can you give

16 me your name again, please?

17 MR. MONTALTO: Sure. It's Vince

18 Montalto. I'm senior litigation counsel at BASF.

19 SPECIAL MASTER: Anyone else? Okay.

20 Going once. Going twice.

21 All right. We have what are two

22 motions. And then we also have a little bit of a

23 controversy concerning the proposed submissions that

24 BASF and/or the Cahill Gordon defendants wish to make

25 in response to plaintiffs' motion concerning the

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1 crime fraud exception and/or Kozlov exceptions to the

2 attorney/client privilege.

3 I'm going to do this a little bit out of

4 order and I'm going to start with the BASF motion to

5 compel the production of what's now being called the

6 Bevan database. And let me start with that.

7 On December 15, 2017, BASF filed a

8 motion to compel what is now called the Bevan

9 database that was docketed at ECF number 383. There

10 are three things in specific that BASF is asking that

11 the database contain.

12 The first one is the identity of the

13 referring attorney. Second is whether the Bevan

14 plaintiffs qualified for or received payment from any

15 asbestos settlement trust. And number three, any

16 compensation that was received by the Bevan

17 plaintiffs

18 BASF asserts that in this motion the

19 plaintiffs in this case were interlopers when Bevan

20 had already agreed to produce the databases.

21 BASF wants the database entries produced

22 unredacted save for personal identifiers, social

23 numbers, addresses, the like.

24 On December the 20th, ECF number 390, a

25 scheduling order was entered in respect of the

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1 opposition and replies.

2 On December 27, 2017, under ECF number

3 394, the plaintiffs filed an opposition saying that

4 they had only -- that the agreement in respect of the

5 Bevan database was only as to a process, not as to

6 the result, that much of what it was being requested

7 was barred by one of the October 26, 2017, orders,

8 and that the Ohio disclosure statute is inapplicable,

9 that the probate information is irrelevant, and that

10 the prior ruling that was made in respect of how many

11 files from the Bevan files were to be produced was

12 not based on burdens

13 The plaintiffs also assert that the BASF

14 defendants are not entitled to the identity of the

15 referring lawyers because it is a trade secret and

16 that the motion prematurely assumes the nature of the

17 putative class.

18 On December 27, under ECF number 395,

19 Bevan filed its opposition -- and when I say Bevan, I

20 mean both the firm and Mr. Bevan -- that incorporates

21 the objections that were filed by plaintiffs, that

22 ask that the production be defined by the class

23 certification motion that has not yet been filed, and

24 that the production be subject to a Rule 502(d)

25 order.

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1 According to Bevan, the agreement only

2 was to discuss the production, that the limitations

3 they're proposing are reasonable, that

4 confidentiality, proprietary business information,

5 information about parties who are not part of the

6 class should not be subject to disclosure, that the

7 entire database is an attorney work product, and that

8 it is a, quote, relational database containing

9 approximately 350 data fields, unquote.

10 I wish I knew what that meant, which is

11 why I wrote it down verbatim.

12 Bevan also says that the referral

13 sources are proprietary and not relevant and that, 2,

14 it was barred by the prior October 26, 2017, order

15 that is at ECF number 367.

16 On January the 3rd, 2018, under ECF 398,

17 BASF filed its reply. And it basically says that

18 what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

19 If BASF was required to and did produce its database,

20 likewise the Bevan database should be presented. It

21 basically repeats the arguments that are set forth in

22 its initial submission and says that an appropriate

23 protective order cures any trade secret claim.

24 Normally I would then move to the movant

25 and say: What do you think?

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1 But I'm going to do things a little bit

2 differently today.

3 Mr. Little, you're here representing

4 Bevan.

5 MR. LITTLE: Correct.

6 SPECIAL MASTER: What do you want us to

7 do?

8 MR. LITTLE: Well, first of all, I want

9 to correct I think what you recited about our

10 position.

11 I mean, first of all, we're taking the

12 position that the entire database, regardless of what

13 was offered in the meet and confer process, is work

14 product and should not be produced and that really

15 the burden is on BASF to show why they need it. And

16 they haven't met that burden. So --

17 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, get past that,

18 because I'm going to find that they have.

19 So do how do we go about curing your

20 concerns?

21 MR. LITTLE: Well, I mean, the proposal

22 that was made by the plaintiffs with the Bevan firm's

23 input I think gives BASF everything that they need.

24 And I think that the three categories of fields that

25 they have a dispute -- that there's a dispute about,

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1 and they're covered by prior rulings of the Court,

2 nothing has changed to alter that ruling regarding

3 settlement information.

4 There's no relevance or need for the

5 referring attorney. I don't see how that relates

6 either to the merits of the underlying case or the

7 issues or elements in the claims made by plaintiffs

8 in this case.

9 And in regard to the last category of

10 information, I mean, the fact that some of those

11 trust documents may be public under a 2011 law, I

12 don't see how that puts that information in a

13 different category than the other settlement

14 information the Court's previously ruled on.

15 So in summary, I think that the proposal

16 that was made by the plaintiffs was reasonable.

17 However, we still take the position for

18 the record that the entire database is work product.

19 And I think it's important to look at

20 what this is, because we are all attorneys and we can

21 all appreciate that a database containing information

22 about that firm's clients that was largely derived

23 from information provided by those clients and

24 medical practitioners, to order that to be produced,

25 especially without the presence of those clients in

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1 this lawsuit at this time is really an unprecedented

2 and scary thought.

3 I mean, every law firm maintains

4 databases. It's how in modern litigation information

5 is organized and exchanged. And it's no different

6 than an internal memorandum about a case.

7 This is information that was selected by

8 the attorneys at the Bevan firm or at the direction

9 of the Bevan firm because of its importance to all of

10 its asbestos cases.

11 So we're not unfortunately giving up any

12 ground on the position that the entire database is

13 work product and is protected and that it also

14 contains significant attorney/client privilege

15 information.

16 SPECIAL MASTER: Now, tell me more about

17 this database. I assume it's some form of

18 spreadsheet that has categories and has information

19 in respect of each category. Is that correct?

20 MR. LITTLE: I'm glad that you asked.

21 My understanding is that that is not correct. When

22 I say that it is a relational database, it is a

23 proprietary software that is similar to Microsoft

24 Access in that it contains database -- several

25 different databases and is able to present that

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1 information through an interface and produce reports

2 that are then essentially in spreadsheet form.

3 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. But the net

4 result of what would be produced, if it's ordered to

5 be produced, would be some form of spreadsheet,

6 correct?

7 MR. LITTLE: Correct. That is an

8 output option.

9 And one other point about the database

10 that I want to emphasize, that it contains

11 information for current and former clients, including

12 clients that are not part of the class even as it's

13 broadly pled in the current operative complaint.

14 And so, you know, to be able to do what

15 BASF asks, which is essentially to provide a copy or

16 access to the database, is simply not possible.

17 SPECIAL MASTER: I don't understand the

18 not possible part.

19 MR. LITTLE: Well, because as far as I

20 know, there's no way to limit access to just the

21 clients that are part of this litigation.

22 SPECIAL MASTER: Are you telling me that

23 someone can't produce a spreadsheet and then take out

24 from that spreadsheet the names of people who are not

25 part of this class and would never be part of this

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1 class, regardless of how it's defined?

2 MR. LITTLE: That is possible.

3 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

4 MR. LITTLE: But in terms of providing a

5 copy -- and this may be a misunderstanding about what

6 was contained in the database when we were having our

7 meet and confer discussion, but the comparison is I

8 think the Cahill database, an entire copy was

9 provided or will be provided for the plaintiffs to

10 use or to peruse at their will.

11 In this case, providing a copy of the

12 software that allows the Bevan firm to access

13 information in the database is not possible. But

14 producing some sort of spreadsheet report from the

15 database that contains a limited subset of that

16 information is a possibility.

17 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Mr. Placitella,

18 we're going backwards today.

19 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Well, I'll ask

20 for your patience because I heard your preliminary

21 thoughts and I feel compelled to make a record for

22 appeal.

23 SPECIAL MASTER: Please.

24 MR. PLACITELLA: In terms of our being

25 an interloper --

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: I didn't -- those

2 weren't my words.

3 MR. PLACITELLA: I understand.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: I try to be as honest

5 in saying what the parties' positions are as -- I try

6 to tone them down a little bit, but other than

7 that...

8 MR. PLACITELLA: In our position as

9 class counsel we have the duty and a right to protect

10 the rights of the putative class members.

11 SPECIAL MASTER: Granted. You don't

12 have to spend any more time on that point.

13 MR. PLACITELLA: So a number of points

14 for the record.

15 There is no right to discovery

16 concerning absent class members and certainly not

17 putative class members.

18 Bevan's clients are not parties to this

19 case at this point. They are putative class

20 members. They're not even absent class members as

21 certification has not been granted.

22 Putative class members have not even

23 availed themselves at this point and don't even know

24 that the case exists. The request is premature.

25 So let's say for example the case gets

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1 certified and it's only certified on a C4 basis on an

2 issues class. That individual damage information

3 would only become relevant at the time the people --

4 if they decide to avail themselves of that.

5 So really, until they even see what the

6 certification brief looks like, their request is

7 premature.

8 There's also no right to confidential

9 information of putative class members. Filing of a

10 class does not waive the privilege of a putative

11 class member.

12 Suppose somebody decides to opt out.

13 They're a putative class member or an absent class

14 member. There's no law that says that just by being

15 a potential member of a class that you're waiving

16 your right to privilege.

17 We did not agree with this Court's order

18 concerning the production of the 30 files, the Bevan

19 files. And in order to move the case forward, it was

20 our belief and it's still our belief that Bevan is

21 not ethically permitted to turn over those files

22 without the clients' permission. That is supported

23 by an ethics opinion that Rothenberg provided to the

24 Court. I believe it's also supported by RPC 1.6(a).

25 Bevan, in order to --

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: But bear with me for a

2 moment, Mr. Placitella, because I'm having a little

3 bit of a Groundhog Day moment. Okay.

4 Haven't we been through this before?

5 And wasn't that decision made in October, which means

6 the time for review of it is long past.

7 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm not asking for a

8 review of that decision.

9 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

10 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm saying I didn't

11 agree with it.

12 SPECIAL MASTER: I understand you didn't

13 agree with it. But you made your record then. And

14 believe me, you want to make a record, you can have

15 all the time in the world to make your own record

16 today. I will never infringe on that. But that's

17 plowed over ground.

18 MR. PLACITELLA: I understand. But

19 here's my point. The point is in order to move the

20 case forward, Mr. Bevan went and got permission and

21 decided for the 30 files that's how we'll handle it.

22 Now, if he's forced to turn over his

23 database, then he arguably has to go get permission

24 under the ethical rules from everybody in that

25 database pursuant to RPC 1.6(a), from his own ethics

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1 advice. And I don't think that he's willing to do

2 that and I don't think he should be compelled to do

3 that.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: Is that true even if a

5 Federal Rule of Evidence 502(d) order is entered?

6 MR. PLACITELLA: I don't think the

7 502(d) order trumps RPC 1.6(a).

8 But there's also no right to law firm

9 work product where that law firm is not a party.

10 And the database for --

11 SPECIAL MASTER: I'm sorry, I don't

12 understand.

13 MR. PLACITELLA: Mr. Bevan --

14 SPECIAL MASTER: Stop for a moment.

15 MR. PLACITELLA: Sure.

16 SPECIAL MASTER: Help me understand. I

17 don't understand the basis upon which you say that a

18 law firm that is not a party cannot be compelled to

19 produce its work product. What's the authority for

20 that proposition?

21 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, we looked high

22 and low for a case that was like this where a

23 non-party law firm was compelled to turn over its

24 database of client information that was the product

25 of a lot of analysis and synthesis.

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1 In this case this database is

2 comprised -- I checked -- of 415 separate fields

3 that are the product of analysis and synthesis by the

4 people at the Bevan law firm. I could not find a

5 single case anywhere where a court had ordered that

6 kind of discovery.

7 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, you have me at a

8 disadvantage, because I don't know what's in this

9 database. Okay. All I know is what I've been told.

10 And I assumed, and maybe that's my

11 mistake, that it was going to be something that was

12 akin to the BASF database, which was simply a

13 spreadsheet. Did I get that wrong or --

14 MR. PLACITELLA: Probably on both

15 accounts. BASF's was not simply a spreadsheet.

16 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, that's what was

17 shown to me.

18 MR. PLACITELLA: It was a relational

19 database. And it was not BASF's database. It was

20 Cahill's.

21 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, whoever it was,

22 the simple fact of the matter is that I was shown a

23 spreadsheet and I assumed that I was being shown that

24 for a reason.

25 MR. PLACITELLA: But there is a

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1 significant difference, I submit, between the

2 database that Cahill turned over, who is a party, and

3 Mr. Bevan's position representing putative class

4 members and the information that's in there. That

5 is clear work product.

6 And I haven't found a case anywhere that

7 would require that, especially given the issues of

8 privilege at stake.

9 I also read that somehow we were getting

10 in the way of a deal that was made with Mr. Bevan.

11 And that's not --

12 SPECIAL MASTER: Just ignore that.

13 Okay. I ignored it. You'd do well to ignore it too.

14 MR. PLACITELLA: But on the base that

15 was something that Bevan and BASF was trying to work

16 out.

17 It's not a place where we start from.

18 BASF rejected that offer of compromise. From our

19 perspective, they start from ground zero. They

20 don't have a right to any of it, absent some kind of

21 fair compromise by Mr. Bevan.

22 BASF overreached and now they should be

23 stuck with overreaching.

24 Now, here's the important part. The

25 discovery that's sought here by BASF and Cahill is

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1 totally not necessary and redundant. BASF already

2 has virtually all of the information except for

3 settlement information and referring counsel

4 information that's in the Bevan database. BASF has

5 scanned and it's word searchable every single case

6 that they were involved with. That includes for

7 every case. And I wrote it down. It's far more

8 complete than actually what Bevan has.

9 For each client they have all of the

10 pleadings, they have the letters between themselves

11 and Mr. Bevan, they have the clients' medical

12 records, they have expert reports that were submitted

13 by Bevan, they have depositions that were taken of

14 the Bevan clients, they have the motions that were

15 filed in the case.

16 And the database that they have for

17 purposes of what they've categorized and what they've

18 extracted, their database includes the following

19 information: The disease that each plaintiff sued

20 for, not just Bevan but every plaintiff in the United

21 States, the date of the diagnosis, the docket number

22 and case name for each, every cause of action that

23 was asserted --

24 SPECIAL MASTER: I don't mean to cut you

25 short, but what you're telling me is that they

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1 already have the information and it's not necessary

2 to require that somebody else produce it because they

3 already have it?

4 MR. PLACITELLA: That's exactly right.

5 But let me just finish for the record.

6 SPECIAL MASTER: All right. Please.

7 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.

8 SPECIAL MASTER: I just want to make

9 sure I'm getting your point.

10 MR. PLACITELLA: Absolutely correct.

11 They have the plaintiffs' employer, the claimed root

12 of exposure, every hospital where the plaintiff went,

13 a list of all the plaintiffs' doctors, the

14 plaintiffs' smoking history, the plaintiffs' family

15 members, the plaintiffs' military history.

16 They have a list of every other

17 defendant in the case. They have a list of every

18 product sold by every other defendant in the case.

19 They have every doctor who was ever deposed in the

20 cases. They have every brief that was filed in the

21 case, whether it was filed by them, the plaintiff, or

22 a co-defendant. They have every plaintiff and every

23 witness that was deposed. And they have a review

24 that was done by their own experts of the medical

25 information supplied by the plaintiff.

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1 So before we even think about making Mr.

2 Bevan have to go through what he needs to go through

3 to order in order to comply with his ethical

4 responsibilities and the burden that would take, I

5 submit that the Court should take a hard look at the

6 Cahill database and see what is in there, because

7 it's everything you could ever think of. It is very,

8 very thorough.

9 SPECIAL MASTER: But see, you have to

10 help me on that, because I may get the numbers wrong.

11 But I thought the last time we were here

12 and we talked about the Cahill Gordon database, what

13 I was told was that it was incomplete. And we

14 weren't talking about the substantive entries. We

15 were talking about actual number of participants in

16 it that, even though we were talking about -- and I

17 think the number I was given was between 15 and

18 18,000 potential plaintiffs, that the list only had

19 300 names on it or something like that.

20 Did I get that wrong, Mr. Roth?

21 MR. ROTH: I think, your Honor, and Mr.

22 Farrell can correct me, we were talking about the --

23 there was a number of Rothenberg clients that I

24 believe was 1,800, and there are 300 who show up on

25 the Cahill database.

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. So the Cahill

2 database was greater than 300. It was just the

3 Rothenberg?

4 MR. PLACITELLA: There's a reason for

5 that.

6 MR. ASSAF: It's reversed. The Cahill

7 database has 300 and Rothenberg says it's 1,800.

8 MR. PLACITELLA: There's a reason for

9 that.

10 MR. ROTH: Let me finish.

11 SPECIAL MASTER: So I just want to

12 understand and make sure we're talking apples to

13 apples, okay?

14 MR. ROTH: We are. And I think, your

15 Honor, there was also some discussion, because nobody

16 was really clear where the 1,800 number came from in

17 terms of the number of Rothenberg files.

18 So it was not clear when we left whether

19 the 1,800 was an accurate number or the 300 or so

20 that's in the Cahill database was an accurate number.

21 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. But can somebody

22 tell me whether the Cahill Gordon database contains

23 information in respect of all of the potential

24 plaintiffs in this case?

25 MR. PLACITELLA: Everybody except the

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1 non-filers. And that's a whole issue about whether

2 they'll actually be in this case.

3 SPECIAL MASTER: Who's a non-filer?

4 MR. PLACITELLA: People who never filed.

5 SPECIAL MASTER: Everybody who never

6 filed a complaint?

7 MR. PLACITELLA: As I understand, it

8 there are close to 16,000 people.

9 SPECIAL MASTER: Who filed lawsuits of

10 some sort?

11 MR. PLACITELLA: Who are in the Cahill

12 database.

13 SPECIAL MASTER: Either filed a lawsuit

14 or submitted a claim of some sort?

15 MR. PLACITELLA: Correct.

16 MR. FARRELL: That's not correct.

17 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Straighten me

18 out, please.

19 MR. FARRELL: There are not 16,000

20 entries in the database. I don't have the exact

21 number, but it's well under that. I think it's 11

22 or 12,000.

23 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

24 MR. FARRELL: And then for those 11 or

25 12,000, the actual amount of information contained

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1 for each individual person varies.

2 So the litany that Mr. Placitella was

3 reading off, you may find examples of each of those

4 categories, but I don't believe it would be

5 comprehensive for every individual.

6 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. But I think the

7 point that Mr. Placitella is trying to make, and if I

8 do a terrible job at it, straighten me out, but I

9 think the point that he's trying to make is that you

10 already have sufficient information to make a

11 judgment in those areas that you need it for, and

12 that if after you've done that you still need more,

13 there is the ability to seek additional discovery

14 during the pendency of the class certification

15 motion. Did I get --

16 MR. PLACITELLA: That's a fair

17 characterization.

18 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. I'm trying to

19 get to the end point here.

20 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes. But we're not

21 just talking about the Cahill database. We're

22 talking about that they scanned every file and they

23 have all of that in word search.

24 I took the corporate rep. That's what

25 he said. Every case they had.

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1 So even when they went to Mrs. Holley's

2 dep and took her deposition, they had the entire

3 file.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: I understand that. But

5 I think what I'm being told is that they have

6 everything that they have, but everything that they

7 have may not be everything that there is. That's

8 what I'm being told, right?

9 MR. FARRELL: Yes, your Honor.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: Mr. Farrell, did I get

11 that right?

12 MR. FARRELL: The critical thing we do

13 not have is what was on the plaintiffs' side of the

14 equation in terms of deciding to dismiss or settle

15 cases.

16 All of the information that Mr.

17 Placitella just rattled off are things from the

18 defense side of the equation to the extent we have

19 them.

20 But your Honor is right, this is

21 Groundhog Day. We addressed it at the October

22 hearing.

23 The key inquiry at this point is what

24 was in the plaintiffs' mind? What was in the

25 plaintiffs' --

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1 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, none of that's in

2 the database.

3 SPECIAL MASTER: We can't --

4 MR. PLACITELLA: If that's what they say

5 they want, none of it's in the database. It's not in

6 the database. If this is about the database, it's

7 not in the database.

8 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Mr. Boccolini,

9 who I've known for a number of years, is a superb

10 court reporter, but he cannot take down two people at

11 once.

12 So I understand that people feel

13 strongly about this. It is not a milquetoast issue.

14 I understand that.

15 But if for no reason other than my being

16 able to read a non-garbled transcript sometime later

17 on, please work with me on this.

18 Okay. Mr. Placitella, Mr. Roth is

19 being very patient, having shaved his beard, waiting

20 to speak.

21 So I think your partner's not happy that

22 you're going to speak, but go right ahead.

23 MR. ROTH: I just want to make sure that

24 your Honor has a picture of the universe of

25 information that we're talking about here.

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1 One, with respect to Mr. Farrell's point

2 about what's on our side of the equation and in the

3 heads of the plaintiffs, we're going to argue about

4 that later. That's not the database issue.

5 Two, those things that Mr. Placitella is

6 describing --

7 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, we're going to

8 argue about that in respect of the interrogatories.

9 MR. ROTH: Yes, your Honor.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: But those are your

11 interrogatories. Right now we're talking about the

12 Bevan database --

13 MR. ROTH: That's correct, your Honor.

14 SPECIAL MASTER: -- and its production.

15 MR. ROTH: And that's what I was

16 referring to. The issue that Mr. Farrell raises

17 addresses the responses to interrogatories that we'll

18 address later.

19 SPECIAL MASTER: I didn't understand Mr.

20 Farrell's response to be so limited.

21 MR. FARRELL: It was not.

22 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

23 MR. ROTH: I guess the point being that

24 there is nothing with respect to the plaintiffs'

25 thought processes that is in the database, as counsel

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1 knows because they have seen all of the fields.

2 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

3 MR. ROTH: And we have spoken -- Mr.

4 Placitella spoke about the Cahill databases and then

5 just mentioned the corporate rep deposition that was

6 taken.

7 And I mentioned this at our last

8 argument. Mr. Steinmetz was deposed about data

9 Kirkland & Ellis working with BASF collected after

10 they were engaged in this case where they have filed

11 and scanned all of the case files that were pending.

12 So when we talk about databases, that is

13 included in this. That's a word searchable

14 proprietary database that Kirkland has created that

15 provides them with all of the information that Mr.

16 Placitella was describing in his response.

17 And with that, I yield the floor so that

18 Chris doesn't --

19 SPECIAL MASTER: Doesn't hit you, yes.

20 MR. PLACITELLA: So the point being if

21 you're going to come forward and ask for this kind of

22 information and ask for people's work product and to

23 invade privilege issues, then you have to make some

24 showing that you don't have it already.

25 They have not made that showing.

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, I think what you

2 really mean is you have to make some showing that

3 it's not otherwise available by less onerous means.

4 MR. PLACITELLA: Exactly. That's

5 exactly right. Thank you.

6 SPECIAL MASTER: That's my

7 English-to-English translation.

8 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes.

9 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

10 MR. PLACITELLA: And then on the

11 specifics, for example, as it relates to -- let's

12 take the referral orders.

13 Again, I looked pretty hard and we

14 looked pretty hard. I haven't seen any case where a

15 lawyer was compelled to turn over his or her business

16 sources. That goes to the very heart of how law

17 firms survive.

18 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, I understand

19 that. But it is the allegation that there was this

20 organization that referred cases. Calling it an

21 organization might be giving it a dignity it doesn't

22 have. But there was this grouping of lawyers who

23 referred cases out to other people and that the

24 behavior of that group was called into question by

25 one or more courts, and certainly by the American Bar

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1 Association, and that having that information would

2 assist the defense in saying whether a plaintiff's

3 claim is somehow questionable or the like.

4 I mean, what do we do in the face of

5 that?

6 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, Judge, there's no

7 evidence whatsoever in the record that Mr. Bevan did

8 anything wrong or was part of any --

9 SPECIAL MASTER: Nobody's saying that he

10 did.

11 MR. PLACITELLA: But this is a total

12 fishing expedition without any basis whatsoever.

13 Just because some lawyers in some other state at some

14 other point in time also had tire worker cases and

15 did things that, you know --

16 SPECIAL MASTER: They shouldn't have.

17 MR. PLACITELLA: -- we shouldn't have

18 done or they -- doesn't mean Mr. Bevan was involved.

19 There's no prima facie showing of that. And it

20 certainly doesn't justify it.

21 Let's talk about that for a second.

22 The defendants in this case reviewed and received

23 already all of the underlying medical reports from

24 the Bevan cases. They got them in the context of

25 those cases.

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1 In the context of the Bevan cases, they

2 had their own experts look at those reports. In the

3 context of the Bevan cases, they never --

4 SPECIAL MASTER: But that doesn't answer

5 the question about the referring attorney.

6 MR. PLACITELLA: It does. It does.

7 SPECIAL MASTER: How so?

8 MR. PLACITELLA: Because the bottom of

9 their allegation is that somehow the cases that were

10 referred to Bevan, if in fact they were referred, did

11 not have reasonable medical support and were the

12 product of doctors who weren't doing things properly

13 and as a result --

14 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, the way I

15 understand what the defendants are saying is that

16 there was this group of lawyers who were referring

17 cases out. They behaved in an improper way and that

18 may very well have tainted whatever referrals they

19 sent out. So we, the defendants, are entitled to

20 trace the genesis of that action, because if it came

21 from what some courts and certainly the American Bar

22 Association have said was a tainted source, the case

23 itself may not be tainted.

24 But we ought to be able to test that,

25 no?

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1 MR. PLACITELLA: Why?

2 SPECIAL MASTER: Why not?

3 MR. PLACITELLA: I'll tell you why not.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: Why not?

5 MR. PLACITELLA: Because they --

6 SPECIAL MASTER: It's discovery.

7 MR. PLACITELLA: No. Judge, with all

8 due respect, those cases --

9 SPECIAL MASTER: It's not discovery?

10 MR. PLACITELLA: There was discovery in

11 the underlying case. Those medicals were given to

12 Engelhard and BASF. They were reviewed by their

13 experts --

14 SPECIAL MASTER: Right.

15 MR. PLACITELLA: -- in those cases.

16 They were not challenged in those cases.

17 In fact, Engelhard and BASF settled

18 cases after they reviewed those medicals for cheap.

19 They did not challenge those medicals. They did not

20 challenge those medical reports in the underlying

21 case or they got people to dismiss their cases.

22 By the Third Circuit, that ship has

23 sailed. They have lost their right to challenge the

24 medical causation in that underlying case.

25 They reviewed those medicals, your

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1 Honor. They had their experts review those

2 medicals. And they were not challenged. If they

3 had a problem--

4 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, work with me on

5 this. Let us assume that the facts are the way you

6 just described them. BASF, either in its current

7 iteration or when it was Engelhard, received the

8 medical reports. They looked at them at face value

9 and made a decision in respect of settlement or

10 non-settlement based upon those reports.

11 And it later turns out that those

12 reporters were not credible.

13 And I'm not saying anything that should

14 come as a surprise to anybody here, because my

15 information in respect of that is anecdotal.

16 I remember when within the legal

17 profession it became painfully known that there was

18 something not right going on in respect of the

19 asbestos cases that were being sent through a mill to

20 doctors who really were not doing their job and it

21 literally came on the hills -- on the heels, I'm

22 sorry, of a different large case, the fen-phen case,

23 where the same allegations were being made. That's

24 why I remember it from 20 plus years ago.

25 And so whether BASF accepted those

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1 reports at face value back then, now they have

2 knowledge that says: Well, maybe we ought not to

3 have and maybe we should explore that a little bit

4 further.

5 Are you saying that that's not fair game

6 here?

7 MR. PLACITELLA: It's not fair game.

8 They had those cases dismissed fraudulently. This

9 case is about what they did. They made a decision to

10 do what they did independent of whatever those

11 medical reports said. They did what they did

12 independent of what those medical reports said.

13 There is no showing in this case that

14 Mr. Bevan did anything wrong. There were --

15 SPECIAL MASTER: I don't think there's

16 been any allegation that Mr. Bevan did anything

17 wrong.

18 MR. ASSAF: Correct.

19 SPECIAL MASTER: There certainly hasn't

20 been any that I have seen. And certainly nothing

21 that occurs here is to be viewed as any kind of

22 aspersion on Mr. Bevan and his firm. Okay.

23 So you can put that -- throw that whole

24 notion in the trash heap, because that's where it

25 belongs as far as I'm concerned.

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1 But the difficulty that I'm having is

2 that you properly so are arguing your clients'

3 position as a fact accomplished. That's exactly what

4 you should be arguing.

5 My problem is I can't accept that

6 ultimate conclusion, because all we have right now

7 are a complaint and an answer. So the facts have

8 not been established.

9 I have to say to myself: I understand

10 what the plaintiffs are alleging. And I think you've

11 figured out by now that I do understand what the

12 plaintiffs are alleging.

13 But by the same token, the defendants

14 have their defense. And nothing has been proven as

15 of yet.

16 And the whole purpose of the exercise in

17 which we find ourselves is to get facts to support

18 either side when the issues are finally teed up and

19 ready for disposition.

20 So that's the perspective that I'm

21 looking it from. I'm looking at it from the fact

22 that everybody who is in this room, including the

23 folks who are on the phone, are entitled to get a

24 fair shot at discovering facts that may help their

25 ultimate position when it's being advanced. That's

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1 all.

2 MR. PLACITELLA: I understand that. So

3 let's take it from the proposition. They have the

4 medical report to for Mrs. Holley. It's a Dr. X.

5 They have no evidence that Dr. X did anything wrong.

6 They've had that for decades.

7 What difference does it make where Mrs.

8 Holley's case came from? You know, there's a danger

9 here.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, let me ask you

11 this. Where that case came from, how is that

12 protectable information?

13 MR. PLACITELLA: It's a business

14 interest. It's a trade secret.

15 SPECIAL MASTER: It's not a trade

16 secret. Okay. I know you argued that. I know it

17 was advanced. I think I know what a trade secret

18 is. That's not a trade secret. Okay.

19 So the fact that John Doe refers a case

20 to me is not a trade secret. The fact that John Doe

21 referred to case to me is not a trade secret.

22 MR. PLACITELLA: Your Honor, it's

23 business proprietary information.

24 SPECIAL MASTER: I understand. How is

25 it confidential?

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1 MR. PLACITELLA: It's confidential, it

2 has the potential to hurt people.

3 SPECIAL MASTER: How?

4 MR. PLACITELLA: Let's say you're a

5 defense lawyer and you refer a case to Roth and you

6 make that referral --

7 SPECIAL MASTER: Not after he shaved his

8 beard.

9 MR. PLACITELLA: Maybe you don't want

10 the world and all your other potential business

11 sources to know that you have a relationship with

12 Roth. I mean, that's up to -- you know, that's

13 between you and Roth.

14 SPECIAL MASTER: But what I want or

15 don't want is irrelevant to the question of whether

16 the law protects it.

17 Mr. Roth, you're going come to your own

18 defense here. Tell me.

19 MR. ROTH: Well, first of all, whoever's

20 referring a case to me is making a wise decision.

21 But first of all, viewed in the context

22 of discovery of a non-party lawyer, the defendants

23 have argued that the source of the case may

24 demonstrate that a particular case is tainted.

25 SPECIAL MASTER: That's what I

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1 understand them to be saying.

2 MR. ROTH: So that's their argument.

3 And yet, you know, one, we are not at the issue of

4 whether a case is tainted, your Honor. We don't yet

5 know what the class is going to look like and whether

6 that matters.

7 And second, Engelhard/BASF has had these

8 medical records not just reviewed at face value, your

9 Honor, these were vetted by experts. And that in

10 and of itself demonstrates -- you know, they didn't

11 make an argument then that these are tainted cases.

12 And I think that that's the point, that

13 in terms of the -- if the idea is that the referral

14 source equals proof that the case is tainted, well,

15 the actual proof of whether the case is tainted is

16 going to come from the medical records that BASF and

17 Engelhard have.

18 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, that's not

19 necessarily so. As you well know, for example, in

20 the fen-phen cases, they settled thousands of those

21 cases, until somebody finally said: Wait a minute,

22 look at these three or four doctors who are looking

23 at thousands of patients and look at their reports.

24 All they're doing is changing the name.

25 But you can't do that in the first one

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1 or the second one or the third one. You do that

2 when you get to the five-thousandth and go: Okay,

3 that's now a pattern.

4 So I understand your concern. The

5 problem is it doesn't arise from the first instance.

6 It arises after you see a pattern of behavior that

7 allows to you then say: Okay, there may be a problem

8 in respect of where this is coming from.

9 MR. ROTH: With respect to that, your

10 Honor, one, it is fair to argue after the Williams

11 Court -- Williams opinion in the Third Circuit and

12 Judge Litner's opinion, we're not relitigating these

13 cases.

14 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, Judge Litner is

15 not in my chain. You mean Judge Linares?

16 MR. ROTH: Yes. Thank you, your Honor.

17 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

18 MR. ROTH: But we're not relitigating

19 the cases. And the opportunity to have done so --

20 SPECIAL MASTER: I will tell you as an

21 aside, Judge Litner once told me -- he has two small,

22 very nice dogs. And he once told me that he would

23 write his opinions at home with one of the dogs on

24 his lap and that's what helped him write opinions.

25 And my response to him was he needed more dogs.

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1 So go ahead. You brought Judge Litner

2 up, okay.

3 MR. ROTH: There's a lot about that that

4 I have to unpack, your Honor.

5 In any event, we're not relitigating

6 these cases. And this really does begin a long line

7 of discovery on what if that we're not at yet and

8 that frankly much of the record --

9 SPECIAL MASTER: But we are going to be

10 there shortly, because under my earlier order, the

11 class cert motion was supposed to be filed today.

12 Mr. Placitella requested an additional

13 two weeks. And over Mr. Assaf's very strong

14 objection: I said fine, take the time. I'd rather

15 have it done right than done quickly.

16 So two weeks from today we will all know

17 what the class is supposed to look like, at least

18 according to plaintiffs' counsel, and whether we're

19 going to get a request for full class certification

20 or an issues class only or even under that a limited

21 issues class only. That's in your ballpark. And we

22 will know that when you're ready to tell us, no later

23 than two weeks from today.

24 But be that as it may, that's when we're

25 going to get to it.

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1 Now, I will tell you I'm fairly

2 comfortable that there is enough firepower in this

3 case and enough room between the filing of the motion

4 and whether we're ultimately going to have to deal

5 with the motion to allow for appropriate discovery to

6 occur and people to get done what needs to be done.

7 And I hope that everyone here is fairly

8 confident that you get something to me, you get a

9 response fairly quickly, including those who sent me

10 e-mails during the football games yesterday,

11 violating a holy day of obligation.

12 Be that as it may, we'll get to that

13 later. You're going to get a quick response. So

14 nothing's going to sit.

15 And I said before and I will say it

16 again. My charter is clear. I got to get this case

17 trial ready as quickly as I can.

18 So I will remind everybody here that

19 within two months this case will be seven years old.

20 Okay. That in my religion is the age of reason.

21 So at seven years old, it's beginning to grow a

22 little bit of whiskers. And we can't have that.

23 Mr. Placitella, I'm sorry.

24 MR. PLACITELLA: I appreciate that.

25 With respect to the Court, some of those whiskers are

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1 the product of it taking a long time through the

2 appellate process and back. It wasn't --

3 SPECIAL MASTER: I didn't blame anybody.

4 I didn't blame anybody. And I will say right now

5 there's enough blame to go around for everybody.

6 But what I will say is that since I was

7 asked to take this over, no moss has grown on any

8 stone here.

9 MR. PLACITELLA: Right. So let me

10 address your issue directly.

11 In fen-phen, which I'm intimately

12 familiar with, you had a bad circumstance, one lawyer

13 out of many great lawyers. And that challenge was

14 made in the underlying case, okay, not in a

15 fraudulent concealment case later.

16 If BASF thought there was a problem --

17 SPECIAL MASTER: Actually, I'm not sure

18 that that is correct.

19 MR. PLACITELLA: It is correct.

20 MR. COHEN: It is correct.

21 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, I will tell you

22 that I was in private practice at the time and one of

23 my partners was representing one of the physicians

24 who was separately sued. And the allegation was

25 made in that separate case, not in the underlying

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1 fen-phen litigation.

2 MR. PLACITELLA: But the -- I don't

3 want to go there. I was involved in it. I was class

4 counsel. I know what happened, okay, in the fen-phen

5 cases.

6 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

7 MR. PLACITELLA: That was in the

8 underlying case.

9 Here, BASF had the right and probably

10 still has the right if they believe so to go back to

11 court in Ohio and challenge any settlement that they

12 believe that they made under false information. The

13 Rooker-Feldman doctrine --

14 SPECIAL MASTER: 25 years after the

15 fact?

16 MR. PLACITELLA: Absolutely. We were

17 told that's the only thing we could do. Okay.

18 Under Rooker-Feldman, if we wanted to upset the

19 judgment of the earlier court, our only remedy was to

20 go back to that state or federal court who had the

21 original case. That's what Rooker-Feldman says.

22 That's what the Third Circuit said.

23 So if they had a problem because they

24 thought they were somehow defrauded in paying

25 whatever measly amount they paid, they had a remedy.

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1 That remedy has been available to them since the

2 early 90s. And certainly they've known for decades

3 of the issue about the National Tire Workers Project

4 that they throw into every brief.

5 They chose to do nothing. They can't

6 now try to use that as a defense in a case that has

7 been extinguished. And that's exactly what they're

8 trying to do. That's exactly what the Third Circuit

9 said none of us can do. We cannot relitigate the

10 merits.

11 So if they believe that somehow the

12 doctors' reports do not support the settlement that

13 they -- they can go back to that court and ask that

14 court to reopen that case.

15 They can't come here and ask to litigate

16 that here. That's not what the law says, with all

17 due respect. And that's clearly beyond the dictates

18 of the Third Circuit.

19 Going to the other arguments, the issue

20 of settlements, this Court has already ordered that

21 BASF is not entitled to the discovery of any other

22 settlement information but for the 30 that have been

23 provided.

24 And now what BASF wants to do is say:

25 Okay. Well, that order didn't mean anything. Now we

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1 want the settlement information for everybody else,

2 whether or not those settlements were confidential.

3 And now the problem here is as follows.

4 Some of them may not have been confidential. I

5 don't know. Many of them I know from pattern and

6 practice were confidential. That means that under

7 the Rules of Professional Responsibility, Mr. Bevan

8 has obligations concerning the disclosure of

9 confidential settlement information that frankly has

10 no place here. I understand their argument. But it

11 has no place here.

12 The fact that these people were

13 defrauded has -- what they got from Owens Corning

14 Fiberglass in a settlement under seal or under

15 confidentiality should not be subject to discovery

16 here.

17 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. What they got.

18 But how about the fact of the settlement?

19 MR. PLACITELLA: The fact --

20 SPECIAL MASTER: Not the amount. The

21 fact of the settlement.

22 MR. PLACITELLA: It is known -- it is

23 not -- they know who settled. And that's not a

24 confidential -- I mean, the fact that a settlement

25 took place is not confidential.

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. And so --

2 MR. PLACITELLA: The fact that the

3 settlement took place is not confidential.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. So let me take

5 that a little bit further along the way. The fact

6 that somebody qualified for or received payment,

7 without disclosing the amount, from an asbestos

8 settlement trust, is that confidential?

9 MR. PLACITELLA: It is not confidential.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. So including

11 that on the database would not make anybody crazy,

12 except for Mr. Roth who has his hand up.

13 MR. ROTH: The only question I have,

14 your Honor, and I don't know what the answer is, but

15 I believe it is not simply a yes/no, there's not a

16 yes/no field, did you qualify or didn't you. It may

17 just have a number.

18 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, I'm sure that's

19 easily remediable.

20 MR. ASSAF: If it's confidential.

21 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, how -- there are

22 some trusts that say it's confidential. There are

23 others that don't speak to it directly. This is a

24 sideshow, frankly, that is totally unnecessary.

25 SPECIAL MASTER: Well --

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1 MR. PLACITELLA: What does this have to

2 do with the plaintiffs' allegations in this case?

3 Nothing. Nothing.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: I don't agree with you

5 on that. But you have a position to advance. And I

6 appreciate not only the cogency but also the passion

7 with which you present it.

8 You keep making Mr. Assaf write notes to

9 poor Mr. Farrell, who will according to those notes

10 have to speak for two and a half hours, which he's

11 not going to get.

12 MR. FARRELL: It might be three, your

13 Honor.

14 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, okay. If you're

15 not getting two and a half, you're not getting three.

16 Mr. Little, you've been so patient over

17 here and you have everybody picking at the carcass of

18 your client. So anything you want to add?

19 MR. LITTLE: Thank you, your Honor.

20 Yes, I just want to make a point about your summary

21 of the referral source and why it may be important.

22 You mentioned several times the doctors.

23 The doctors, the experts are the evidence. And if

24 there is some part of the underlying case that is to

25 be impugned, it's the experts and not the referral

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1 source.

2 SPECIAL MASTER: But correct me if I'm

3 wrong, I understood that the doctors sort of came

4 from the referral source, that they were

5 hand-in-hand. Were they not?

6 MR. ASSAF: Correct.

7 MR. LITTLE: In some cases they may have

8 been. In some cases they may not have been. But

9 what -- using the referral source --

10 SPECIAL MASTER: But to use Mr.

11 Placitella's term, isn't the custom and practice that

12 when those cases were sent from the referral source

13 to, for example, your client, Mr. Bevan, it came as a

14 completed package, it would have the plaintiff, it

15 would have the medical records, it would have the

16 experts' reports, so that your client would then only

17 have to file a complaint and move on from there.

18 MR. LITTLE: Not necessarily. That's

19 not my understanding.

20 SPECIAL MASTER: Not necessarily, okay.

21 MR. LITTLE: And even if that were the

22 case, Mr. Bevan could engage his own experts.

23 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, he could have.

24 But did he?

25 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes.

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1 MR. LITTLE: And --

2 SPECIAL MASTER: Mr. Placitella?

3 MR. PLACITELLA: As I understood it,

4 every case got an independent expert that was

5 ultimately accepted and audited by numerous asbestos

6 trusts.

7 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. So when you say

8 every case, you mean every Bevan case?

9 MR. PLACITELLA: Every Bevan case.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: Is that true

11 across-the-board?

12 MR. PLACITELLA: I have no idea.

13 SPECIAL MASTER: At least the --

14 MR. PLACITELLA: We're talking about

15 Bevan's cases, right.

16 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

17 MR. ASSAF: And, your Honor, so -- and I

18 certainly believe what Mr. Placitella says.

19 But there also came a time where,

20 because of federal courts both in the Grace trust and

21 in the Raymark case, excluding the doctors that came

22 with the package, okay, and what I've read is it was

23 a package, because that's what the ABA refers to.

24 SPECIAL MASTER: That's what I thought.

25 MR. ASSAF: So there came a time where

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1 it would have been malpractice not to try to get

2 another doctor because these doctors were being

3 excluded.

4 MR. PLACITELLA: So he has them. He's

5 had cases approved by the trust way after all this by

6 independent experts. These are valid cases.

7 SPECIAL MASTER: We're not being kind to

8 Mr. Little, who's been very patient.

9 MR. LITTLE: Your Honor, the analogy is

10 if in a case a party were to seek information about

11 the attorney's sanction history and try to admit that

12 as evidence as to whether the underlying claims are

13 or are not valid, it simply is not something that

14 would ever be admissible in the underlying case.

15 If you want to impugn the credibility of

16 the evidence, it is the experts. And that is

17 information that not only my understanding is that

18 BASF already has, but that's not reflected in the

19 field that is in dispute. It's reflected in a

20 different field that was part of a proposal that was

21 made during the meet and confer process.

22 SPECIAL MASTER: When this database is

23 reduced to a spreadsheet, how many columns does it

24 have?

25 MR. LITTLE: My understanding is that

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1 it's not 350, but 415.

2 MR. FARRELL: I have a copy here, your

3 Honor, if you'd like to see it.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

5 MR. LITTLE: Yeah, 415 I believe.

6 MR. PLACITELLA: 415.

7 MR. FARRELL: That is the entry just for

8 one of the putative class representatives.

9 SPECIAL MASTER: For William Clark?

10 MR. FARRELL: Correct.

11 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, Nancy Pease, did

12 I pronounce that correctly? P-E-A-S-E.

13 MR. FARRELL: Yes. What I don't think

14 is --

15 SPECIAL MASTER: There's a lot of

16 information here that I frankly don't think is all

17 that important. I think it would have been

18 important under the underlying case, but not in this

19 case.

20 Okay. Can I hold onto this for a

21 minute?

22 MR. FARRELL: Yes, your Honor.

23 SPECIAL MASTER: Thank you.

24 I'm sorry, Mr. Little, we keep

25 interrupting you.

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1 MR. LITTLE: That's okay. I finished

2 on that point.

3 The only other thing that I want to

4 differentiate is the difference between what I

5 understand the Cahill database to be and the

6 authority that might govern its production and the

7 Bevan database. You asked about authority

8 previously.

9 And unlike -- with the Cahill database,

10 and this is only my own understanding from reading

11 the parties' briefing on the issue, is that it

12 reflected information that Cahill received on behalf

13 of BASF from the parties that had filed or submitted

14 claims against it. So that information by its very

15 nature is not privileged.

16 In addition, the work product protection

17 over that database is owned by two parties to this

18 lawsuit and so it's not subject to Rule 45.

19 The difference with the Bevan database

20 is that Rule 45 contains mandatory language that work

21 product -- and in this case I don't think that

22 there's a dispute that this is information that was

23 compiled and arranged by attorneys in anticipation of

24 litigation.

25 Rule 45 contains mandatory language,

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1 Rule 45(d)(2), that says that the Court must protect

2 that information from disclosure.

3 There is a second category below that, I

4 believe that's paragraph 3 of that same rule, that

5 says that the Court may limit or impose restrictions

6 on production of trade secret and proprietary

7 information and several other categories.

8 So there is authority that puts the

9 Bevan database in a different position than the

10 Cahill database, and that is that the information in

11 that database is received in part from the firm's own

12 clients. And it is an internal database that

13 contains the information that that law firm felt to

14 be crucial to that case.

15 And it is the privilege, whether it's

16 work product or attorney/client, is owned by a

17 non-party that is subject to this additional

18 protection under Rule 45.

19 And so I just want to make clear that

20 that's what distinguishes the Cahill database.

21 SPECIAL MASTER: What part of Rule 45

22 are you relying on? Because I don't see it. And I

23 just looked at it. I don't see it providing the kind

24 of expansive protection that you seem to be reading.

25 And I'm happy to hand it to you.

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1 MR. LITTLE: Sure, that would be --

2 SPECIAL MASTER: And I think you want to

3 be looking at the lefthand side page. No, the other

4 lefthand. There you go.

5 MR. LITTLE: I'm referring to (d)(3).

6 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

7 MR. LITTLE: On a timely motion, the

8 Court must quash or modify a subpoena that requires

9 disclosure of privileged or other protected matter if

10 no exception or waiver applies.

11 And so with regard to the named

12 plaintiffs, I understand that the Court has ruled

13 that there's been some sort of limited waiver.

14 With regard to --

15 SPECIAL MASTER: That was --

16 MR. LITTLE: -- the putative class

17 members --

18 SPECIAL MASTER: -- Chief Judge Linares

19 decided that.

20 MR. LITTLE: Right, some amount of

21 waiver. It's unclear to me how extensive that is or

22 what that applies to.

23 But that's not the issue presented in

24 this motion. In this motion we're dealing with

25 non-parties who have not had an opportunity to retain

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1 their own counsel, to opt out of this litigation, and

2 should not be bound by a decision that essentially

3 opens the door on their work product and privileged

4 information.

5 SPECIAL MASTER: Now, tell me a little

6 bit more about your work product argument. Because

7 when I look at these databases, when they are

8 produced in a format that human beings can read, they

9 really very much look like summaries under the

10 Federal Rules of Evidence, where the summary is

11 admissible if the information that is set forth in

12 the summary is too voluminous to use.

13 The creation of a summary doesn't make

14 it work product. It just makes it a summary.

15 How is this a work product?

16 MR. LITTLE: Correct.

17 SPECIAL MASTER: I mean, when you as a

18 lawyer decide that you're going to make stuff more

19 easily digestible to you, how is that work product,

20 just because you happen to be a lawyer?

21 It's just like not every conversation

22 that you have as a lawyer is attorney/client

23 privileged. Not everything that you do is work

24 product protected.

25 So tell me how this database, and I'm

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1 waving what Mr. Farrell let me look at, how this

2 database somehow is work product for you.

3 MR. LITTLE: Correct. And there's two

4 bases for that.

5 And the first basis is that the

6 information that is being summarized is itself work

7 product or privileged either because it was received

8 from the client or from a consulting expert as

9 opposed to a testifying expert or somebody working on

10 behalf of the lawyer. And much of that

11 information --

12 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, that doesn't make

13 it work product. That makes --

14 MR. LITTLE: That makes it privileged.

15 SPECIAL MASTER: -- it privileged.

16 Correct.

17 MR. LITTLE: And in the other category

18 is the fact that the information that was chosen and

19 selected for this database reflects the attorney's

20 decision about what information is crucial to that

21 client's case.

22 And so there is in the Third Circuit a

23 selection and incorporation doctrine that I believe

24 applies to this database.

25 But some of the information contained in

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1 this also is the same kind of information that would

2 be reflected in any case memorandum that an attorney

3 would prepare for the file in any of our cases.

4 The fact that it's arranged in

5 relational databases that can be sort of called upon

6 to produce reports containing, you know, specific

7 information, doesn't make it any different than any

8 other internal document that's prepared for

9 litigation.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: And correct me if I'm

11 wrong, but is what Mr. Farrell handed over to me, is

12 that typical of the categories and of the fields in

13 this database?

14 MR. LITTLE: I believe that reflects all

15 of the possible fields.

16 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. So if I said to

17 Mr. Farrell, Mr. Farrell, identify for me the six

18 fields that you really want by way of information,

19 and we narrow everything down to the point where some

20 if not all of your concerns go away, would that plus

21 a 502(d) order satisfy your concerns?

22 MR. LITTLE: Well, I don't think that I

23 can --

24 SPECIAL MASTER: It's hard -- I'm asking

25 you a question in the abstract.

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1 MR. LITTLE: -- walk back from the --

2 from the position we're taking on the database. It

3 would obviously be better than --

4 SPECIAL MASTER: Than a full-blown --

5 MR. LITTLE: -- producing the whole

6 thing.

7 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

8 MR. LITTLE: But, you know, for the

9 record --

10 SPECIAL MASTER: So amputation is better

11 than just capital punishment?

12 MR. LITTLE: We'll take anything we can

13 get.

14 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Mr. Farrell,

15 you only get to use one sheet of comments from Mr.

16 Assaf, okay, so pick the better one.

17 MR. FARRELL: I will do my best, your

18 Honor.

19 And I came in this morning and I was

20 going to say that the theme of the day was going to

21 be the sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander that

22 you identified from our brief, but I think your Honor

23 actually --

24 SPECIAL MASTER: I stole your thunder.

25 MR. FARRELL: You actually came up with

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1 a better theme than I did, which was the Groundhog

2 Day point, because I think much of what we've heard

3 over the last hour plus is material that's already

4 been argued for months and rejected.

5 We heard scope of discovery and

6 forfeiture of discovery, which has been rejected

7 multiple times by Chief Judge Linares and by your

8 Honor.

9 We heard Rule 1.6 confidentiality, which

10 has been rejected by the Court I think at least twice

11 at this point.

12 SPECIAL MASTER: The last time I said

13 it's a court order and therefore under New Jersey

14 law, which is what applies, you need to disclose.

15 MR. FARRELL: Exactly. And we've heard

16 arguments about prematurity and so on and so forth.

17 What I think would be helpful is exactly

18 where I think the Court was heading, which is how do

19 we resolve this?

20 And I think much of what we heard this

21 morning was really off base from what the dispute

22 we're actually talking about is.

23 And so I want to just try to make three

24 points, because I think it brings us back to what the

25 actual dispute is.

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1 First, the plaintiffs you'll remember

2 vigorously demanded the Cahill databases. When they

3 demanded them, there were no limitations imposed.

4 They didn't say I only want the entries for the six

5 putative class reps, I only want the entries for the

6 30 Bevan people that the Court ordered. It was

7 everything.

8 SPECIAL MASTER: That's okay, because

9 lawyers are entitled to say do I what I say, not what

10 I do. So, okay, that's -- I understand that.

11 MR. FARRELL: So the plaintiffs set the

12 scope when it comes to the databases. All we're

13 asking is that they live by the scope they

14 established.

15 Point two, most of the information in

16 the database both the plaintiffs and Bevan have

17 agreed to produce.

18 The dispute here is really about three

19 categories of information. Most of the argument you

20 heard about work product and this and that, we've

21 already passed it because there's already been

22 agreement to produce multiple categories of

23 information out of the database for all of the Bevan

24 clients. And when I say all of the Bevan clients --

25 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. So there's been

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1 agreement to produce certain categories of

2 information.

3 MR. PLACITELLA: No.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: What are they?

5 MR. PLACITELLA: There's no agreement.

6 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, there may not be

7 with you, Mr. Placitella.

8 MR. PLACITELLA: There was no agreement

9 with him either. There was a proposal made that was

10 reached --

11 SPECIAL MASTER: Wait. Fine. He says

12 there was. You say there weren't.

13 MR. ASSAF: What does Mr. Roth say?

14 SPECIAL MASTER: Mr. Roth, somebody's

15 putting you on the spot.

16 MR. ROTH: And I'm happy to be on the

17 spot, your Honor.

18 We were -- what we discussed was

19 those -- produce the e-mails, that there were areas

20 in this database that would be privileged and that we

21 would not produce. That's what was discussed.

22 MR. ASSAF: And that everything else

23 would be produced.

24 MR. ROTH: Well -- and that's what I

25 wrote, that we wouldn't have a problem with that,

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1 your Honor.

2 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. And what are

3 those areas?

4 MR. ROTH: I'm sorry?

5 SPECIAL MASTER: What are those areas

6 that would be produced?

7 MR. ROTH: Well, it's actually the

8 ones that -- oh. It's easier to go with ones that

9 are not going to be produced.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: No, no. For me it's

11 easier to go with the ones that would be produced,

12 because my order is going to say: You're going to

13 produce X, Y, and Z. So I'm going to need to know

14 what it is that you agree on. Think about it for a

15 moment.

16 Mr. Assaf is going to play with his

17 machine --

18 MR. ASSAF: I'm just --

19 SPECIAL MASTER: -- and Mr. Farrell's

20 going to continue his --

21 MR. ASSAF: I'm just going to pull up

22 Mr. Roth's e-mail.

23 SPECIAL MASTER: That's all right. If

24 that's helpful, that's fine. But you can do that

25 while Mr. Farrell continues.

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1 MR. ROTH: Gene, why don't you just

2 forward it to me?

3 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. So you guys can

4 play electronics while Mr. Farrell speaks.

5 MR. FARRELL: There were multiple

6 discussions and agreements. One example that we

7 noted in our brief, because we had to change our

8 brief at the last minute because we reached an

9 agreement, was on whether the plaintiffs had been in

10 silica litigation and were they going to keep that

11 information out or not. Mr. Roth agreed to include

12 it.

13 So the reason our brief focused on three

14 areas, three key areas, but three areas nonetheless,

15 is because there had been agreement on everything

16 else.

17 I'm now hearing for the first time that

18 that agreement supposedly didn't exist. But be that

19 as it may.

20 Now let's talk about the three areas,

21 because I think they illustrate the problem here.

22 I appreciate that neither plaintiffs nor

23 Bevan wants to produce the information. But as your

24 Honor correctly recognized, unless there's a basis

25 for withholding it, which it's their burden to

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1 satisfy, they can't withhold it just because it's bad

2 for them or they don't feel like producing it.

3 So let's talk about each of the three

4 things. The referring attorney. Well, Mr. Little

5 tried to draw a distinction between information

6 received from a client as opposed to received from a

7 third party and argued that, well, information that

8 comes from the clients is special.

9 Well, the identity of the referring

10 attorney certainly didn't come from Mr. Bevan's

11 clients. That came from a third party. And I don't

12 see how it could be privileged or confidential. It's

13 certainly not a trade secret, as your Honor

14 mentioned.

15 So if I walk through all of the examples

16 that I've heard this morning about basis for

17 withholding, none of them apply to the referring

18 attorney. And that's all the more true given the

19 discovery confidentiality order we have here.

20 To the extent that Mr. Placitella is

21 even concerned about reputational harm, the example

22 he gave about a defense lawyer referring Mr. Roth a

23 case, I'm sure they will designate this information

24 confidential or attorneys' eyes only under the

25 discovery confidentiality order.

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1 And I assume that would address all of

2 the concerns they have about reputational issues or

3 whatever may flow from it.

4 The key point is there's no privilege

5 basis or work product basis for withholding referring

6 attorney.

7 Two, settlements, and I think these

8 actually fall into two categories, so let me take

9 them in two stages because I think it matters.

10 One, are the settlements in the claims

11 made on bankruptcy trusts?

12 We met and conferred on this with Mr.

13 Roth and with Mr. Little. They both acknowledged

14 that bankruptcy trusts are not confidential.

15 The reason we cited the Ohio statute

16 that we cited was not to say that it applies here and

17 that this is a personal injury case, but to

18 illustrate the fact that these trusts are not deemed

19 confidential by anybody.

20 And in fact, if the federal bankruptcy

21 court had said they're confidential and they can't be

22 produced, I very much doubt that the Ohio state could

23 then say I now demand that you produce it. It

24 doesn't work that way.

25 These bankruptcy trusts are not

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1 confidential submissions. They're communications

2 with third parties, both the submission to the trust

3 and the information received from the trust, so it's

4 also not privileged.

5 So you have no confidentiality, you have

6 no privilege, and you have no work product.

7 I don't see any basis for withholding

8 any of the information related to the bankruptcy

9 trusts, including the amounts that have been received

10 from those trusts, because there's no confidentiality

11 in place.

12 So then that leaves category three,

13 which is the other settlements, the settlements with

14 non-bankruptcy entities.

15 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, was there any

16 other compensation received by the Bevan plaintiffs?

17 MR. FARRELL: Essentially yes, which I

18 presume that most -- looking at the database

19 entries, I presume that most of them would be

20 entities other than bankruptcy trusts, such as other

21 defendants from the litigation.

22 Now, we heard extensive argument from

23 Mr. Placitella this morning that somehow BASF already

24 has this information.

25 I don't see how it can both be true that

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1 the information is subject to a confidentiality

2 agreement but BASF already has it from 25 years ago.

3 One of those two things is not correct. I don't

4 know why --

5 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, the argument that

6 Mr. Placitella advances in respect of that is really

7 a proportionality argument, if I can put it in our

8 new terms as of a year and a half ago. You know,

9 whether getting that information is proportional to

10 the needs of the case because, says Mr. Placitella,

11 you already have that information somewhere along the

12 way. And that's how I understood his argument.

13 MR. FARRELL: And I don't believe --

14 SPECIAL MASTER: And he's shaking his

15 head up and down, meaning that I finally got one

16 right.

17 MR. PLACITELLA: You got many things

18 right.

19 SPECIAL MASTER: Thank you.

20 MR. PLACITELLA: Just not everything

21 here so far.

22 SPECIAL MASTER: Stick with me. We're

23 not done yet, Mr. Placitella.

24 MR. FARRELL: With the exception of some

25 of the talc co-defendants, which your Honor may

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1 remember us discussing at the October hearing, where

2 BASF may have had some information about what other

3 talc companies were paying in those cases, I don't

4 think it's correct that we have information about

5 what non-talc non-bankruptcy entities would have been

6 paying to the plaintiffs in those cases.

7 We have asked now for a year for the

8 plaintiffs to identify even one confidentiality

9 agreement that would restrict the production of the

10 information or that couldn't be addressed through the

11 discovery confidentiality order we have. And we've

12 seen none.

13 And in fact, your Honor just heard again

14 this morning Mr. Placitella acknowledging that some

15 of those settlements at a minimum are not subject to

16 confidentiality.

17 Given that it is their burden to prove

18 up some basis for withholding the information, they

19 haven't met the burden and in fact have acknowledged

20 that the argument doesn't apply to the chunk of the

21 information that we're after.

22 The last point I would make is the point

23 that I made to your Honor in December when we were

24 here discussing the Rothenberg issues.

25 And I thought one of the most important

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1 pieces of the plaintiffs' opposition on the Bevan

2 database actually was on the last page of their brief

3 where they told the Court: Hey, none of this should

4 preclude us from later relying on this very same

5 information. And I thought that was a pretty telling

6 statement.

7 It seems pretty clear, your Honor, that

8 the plaintiffs are planning to use this sort of

9 information. And they need to. The reason they need

10 to, as we explained in our motion, is that the six

11 class representatives have either mesothelioma and

12 lung cancer, but 90 plus percent of the putative

13 class does not.

14 It will be the non-malignant claims that

15 were at issue with the National Tire Worker

16 Litigation Project that are the subject of all of the

17 discussion the Court has seen about fraudulent

18 doctors, diagnoses with no actual basis, and most

19 importantly I think for the present dispute, the

20 amount of compensation that would have been received

21 in those cases.

22 SPECIAL MASTER: But aren't we really

23 being told by plaintiffs' counsel: Read between the

24 lines, wait until you get our class cert motion,

25 that's going to define what the class is that we're

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1 seeking and may in fact moot many of the issues that

2 are before us. Isn't that really sort of the

3 subtext of what plaintiffs' counsel are saying?

4 MR. FARRELL: Well, we're two weeks away

5 at this point, your Honor. And I would think that

6 Mr. Placitella would be in a position to tell us

7 today are the non-malignant claims out of the class.

8 If they are, then we're happy --

9 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, I'm not going to

10 ask him to do that today, because he has until the

11 29th.

12 MR. FARRELL: Okay. Well, then we're

13 left in the position of needing to seek the

14 information, because as of today they're supposedly

15 in the class. And as of today, we have only three

16 and a half months of fact discovery to go and we need

17 to get this information.

18 Otherwise, we're going to have no

19 discovery in this case at all on potential damages

20 and the sorts of reliance and causation issues with

21 respect to the non-malignant claims that we're

22 talking about.

23 SPECIAL MASTER: I understand your

24 concern. But hopefully you also understand at least

25 from the way that this matter has been handled up

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1 until now, that if there is a deferral for two weeks

2 to allow all of us to know what plaintiffs' counsel

3 will be proposing in the way of a class, that I will

4 not allow that to prejudice the defense. You're

5 going to get your opportunity to get what you need

6 and you're going to get it quickly.

7 And it frankly might be easier to do

8 then because then we really will know what the

9 contours of the ballpark that we're going to be

10 playing in are.

11 And I hope that you're fairly confident

12 on your side that even though you have a limited time

13 period within which to do to conduct your discovery,

14 discovery will move quickly and delays are not going

15 to be acceptable from anybody. And I mean that.

16 Anybody.

17 I will tell you that at the last time

18 that we discussed this issue, we deferred it because

19 I was told by counsel that you were going to work it

20 out. If I had -- and it didn't work out. That's

21 fine. We address it now.

22 But I will tell you that if I had

23 ordered the discovery and it had not been produced, I

24 am perfectly ready, willing, and able to start

25 imposing sanctions, because I've said it before, I

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1 will say it again. This case needs to move. And

2 I'm not going to brook delays based upon folks'

3 recalcitrance with complying with orders that are

4 issued after a matter has been briefed and argued and

5 you've been heard.

6 You can disagree with me all you want.

7 That's perfectly fine. And if you disagree with me

8 enough, there is a methodology for you to get review

9 of my decisions. Good luck on that. But there is a

10 methodology.

11 And that's what we're going to follow.

12 Otherwise we're going to move this case along. And

13 it's not going to be at anybody's prejudice.

14 This case is almost seven years old.

15 Everybody in this case is entitled to know what the

16 other side's case is going to be about, specifically

17 in respect of class certification.

18 Plaintiffs have a heavy burden to

19 satisfy class cert requirements, particularly in this

20 circuit.

21 And defendants have every right to poke

22 holes into that. That's what makes it a lawsuit.

23 The fact that the complaint was filed is

24 not an invitation for the other side to lay down.

25 You got to expect that the other side is going to

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1 fight you back and that everybody has their burden to

2 prove. So we're going to keep moving on this as

3 best we can.

4 Let me make this suggestion. Putting

5 aside -- Mr. Assaf is going to have a heart attack

6 if I don't let him speak, so --

7 MR. ASSAF: Well, I --

8 SPECIAL MASTER: So to avoid the heart

9 attack --

10 MR. ASSAF: Well, I'd like the Roth

11 exception to multiple people raising points, because,

12 your Honor, if Mr. Placitella is going to sit there

13 in silence, it's inconceivable that this class is not

14 going to include the Bevan people and the Bevan

15 database. This is their case.

16 And so to just -- so two weeks of delay

17 so that we could come back here and then negotiate

18 how it's going to be produced --

19 SPECIAL MASTER: That's not going to

20 happen.

21 MR. ASSAF: Because I would like to say,

22 your Honor, they know Bevan is their case. Okay.

23 We've seen Rothenberg. It's Rothenberg and Bevan.

24 And Rothenberg, I don't know what's going to happen

25 there. Bevan is their case.

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1 And so they're sitting there knowing,

2 okay, that that's going to be part of their case.

3 And now we're just going to wait until we get this

4 database.

5 And the point I wanted to pick up, Mr.

6 Farrell did a great job as usual, but I did want to

7 say when they agreed -- Mr. Roth and I have just been

8 exchanging e-mails. When they've agreed to produce

9 the database save three key issues, okay, that's

10 really inconsistent with the notion that the database

11 can't somehow be reformed to produce it without

12 whatever fields.

13 SPECIAL MASTER: If it's computer

14 information, it can be manipulated --

15 MR. ASSAF: Correct.

16 SPECIAL MASTER: -- every which way

17 possible.

18 MR. ASSAF: Correct.

19 SPECIAL MASTER: So --

20 MR. ASSAF: And so on the National Tire

21 litigation -- the National Tire Workers Litigation

22 Project, I'm not trying to oversell that, but I

23 just -- I get my shot to test the parameters of what

24 these people are and whether they in fact had valid

25 claims.

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: No question. The

2 question that is presently at issue is whether now is

3 the right time for that.

4 MR. ASSAF: And here's why --

5 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. That's the only

6 issue as far as I'm concerned.

7 If the case gets certified or in the

8 process of that, you're going to get the right to

9 look at that and take your shot.

10 The question is are you going to get

11 that today or some day after today?

12 MR. ASSAF: So that's what -- so maybe

13 I'm just misunderstanding again. I think I get that

14 shot before certification. I don't -- not after --

15 Mr. Placitella is suggesting I get it after.

16 SPECIAL MASTER: That's not the

17 question. The question is do you get it before the

18 motion for certification is even filed.

19 MR. ASSAF: Okay. Because it's not

20 going to come as any surprise, in the Widener case,

21 which you're familiar with --

22 SPECIAL MASTER: I'm sure that this

23 issue is not going to go away.

24 MR. ASSAF: Correct.

25 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. It's the

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1 Heimlich case. You called it Widener.

2 MR. ASSAF: Correct.

3 SPECIAL MASTER: It's Widener Law

4 School. Judge Walsh put the brakes on that and the

5 Third Circuit agreed, so...

6 MR. ASSAF: Correct. And again, I

7 don't have to lay it all the out now for your Honor.

8 But if it turned out that a large number of that

9 putative class were part of a scheme to submit false

10 LSAT scores, that would be relevant to the class cert

11 hydrogen peroxide analysis.

12 And so all I'm saying is -- and I know

13 we're going to get to this on the interrogatories, we

14 have -- I think it's May 10th or May 15th. And I

15 hear what your Honor's saying about things set in

16 stone.

17 I don't understand the burden to start

18 producing this, because I can tell you on February

19 1st when we come back here, there's going to be a

20 long story about how long it takes to get it to us.

21 SPECIAL MASTER: But if that's the case,

22 they may not get my normally sympathetic ear, so --

23 look, I'm trying --

24 MR. ASSAF: I know.

25 SPECIAL MASTER: -- to get the case

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1 moving, okay. I'm not carrying water for anybody

2 except for Chief Judge Linares, okay, because he's

3 the only one who can get cranky at me, and that

4 matters, okay.

5 You can all get cranky at me, but it

6 really doesn't matter. So that's what I'm trying to

7 do.

8 MR. ASSAF: I understand.

9 SPECIAL MASTER: And I think everyone

10 understands that. And so work with me. Help me

11 get you where you need to be. I've said that

12 before. I'm going to say it again. Work with me.

13 Help me get you what you need. And I will try to do

14 that.

15 Anyone else? Mr. Roth?

16 MR. ROTH: Just two things. One, to

17 respond to -- I didn't get an e-mail from you, but I

18 sent you an e-mail from me --

19 MR. ASSAF: Correct.

20 MR. ROTH: -- where I identified those

21 databases that -- or those fields that we said were

22 not discoverable.

23 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

24 MR. ROTH: And I'm happy to send that to

25 your Honor.

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: No. What I want you to

2 do -- we're going to take a short break. And what I

3 want you, Mr. Roth, either one of you, Mr. Assaf or

4 Mr. Farrell, and Mr. Little, because again, you're

5 picking at his client's carcass, to go through this

6 list and tell me specifically which fields you agree

7 to produce, okay, knowing full well that you disagree

8 on the three fields that are at issue here.

9 I'm going to tell you right now I'm not

10 going to order the production of 450 fields of

11 information. That's not going to happen.

12 MR. FARRELL: Well, can I speak to just

13 that point, your Honor? Because I think there's a

14 bit of a misconception about the number 450.

15 SPECIAL MASTER: It doesn't matter what

16 the number is. You're going to look through this

17 list and you're going to highlight -- and I'm to give

18 you the list and I'm going to give you a highlighter.

19 Okay. You're going to highlight the fields that you

20 guys agree can be produced. I'm sure you can

21 modify -- since this is a relational database, I'm

22 sure you can modify what the net result is when you

23 produce the spreadsheet.

24 And once we define what the categories

25 are, I know that there are three categories you're

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1 not going to agree on, so I'm going to have to rule

2 on them, and we'll work off of that.

3 But first let's try to make sure that we

4 define what the scope is of what's being requested

5 here, try to get agreement on that as much as

6 possible, and then I'll address the three areas.

7 And if people want to talk more after

8 that, that's fine. But for now, why don't we try to

9 use that time profitably.

10 MR. PLACITELLA: I just want to correct

11 the record on one thing --

12 SPECIAL MASTER: Yes.

13 MR. PLACITELLA: -- about the Cahill

14 database. The Cahill database was supposed to have

15 been produced in response to my request for give me

16 the records that you have as to why cases were

17 dismissed. That was why it -- am I wrong?

18 MR. ASSAF: Yes, you are wrong.

19 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Well, tell me

20 why it wasn't produced then.

21 SPECIAL MASTER: I'm sorry. Before we

22 get into that, I have a feeling that that's what a

23 friend of mine who likes the ballet would call a

24 lateral arabesque. It's not central to the dance.

25 I don't know how that helps us here, Mr.

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1 Placitella. So maybe you can tell me that first.

2 MR. PLACITELLA: We'll have our break

3 and then we'll come back.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Thank you.

5 Here's the list that you gave me. I'm going to find

6 you a highlighter -- well, that's a blue one. Those

7 are horrible. Can we get a yellow one? There

8 should be one down there.

9 MR. ASSAF: And, your Honor, so it's not

10 going to surprise you, the point on the 450, if they

11 sued 120 defendants, each defendant could have three

12 categories: Date complaint filed, check received,

13 check sent, check cashed.

14 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

15 MR. ASSAF: So that's why it gets up

16 into the hundreds so quickly.

17 SPECIAL MASTER: All right. Well, I

18 looked at it. And they seemed pretty -- pretty --

19 what's the word I'm searching for? Pretty granular

20 in the information. So that's kind of where we were.

21 But let's use this time profitably.

22 (Break.)

23 SPECIAL MASTER: I just want to confirm

24 that the categories are correct.

25 MR. ROTH: Well, actually, your Honor,

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1 there are a couple things that are -- that were

2 changed after this. So let me --

3 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. So why don't you

4 tell me what the categories are.

5 MR. ROTH: Right. Let me just say --

6 and what you have asked us to do and what I had done

7 with Mr. -- I'm sorry, what I had done with Mr. Assaf

8 and with Mr. Farrell after our November conference

9 with your Honor was essentially some E-electronic and

10 telephone meet and confers.

11 We objected in front of your Honor to

12 producing the database. We said perhaps there was a

13 way to work this out. These are putative class

14 members. And we went down into the woods on certain

15 things.

16 So we said for purposes of reaching an

17 agreement, which we never did, here is what we will

18 not produce. I've said it that way, your Honor,

19 because the version that you now have has factors

20 that are -- or fields that are highlighted with red.

21 Those are the fields we believe are not discoverable

22 from the Bevan database.

23 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. But make my

24 life easier.

25 MR. ROTH: Yes, sir.

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: Tell me which fields

2 you've agreed to produce.

3 MR. ROTH: Okay.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: Because those are what

5 are going to appear in the order.

6 MR. ROTH: Okay.

7 SPECIAL MASTER: Mr. Reiley's going to

8 take notes, and what he puts in the way of notes is

9 what's going to be in the order, so slowly and

10 patiently. Please.

11 MR. ROTH: Yes, sir. For the record,

12 what we would have been willing to produce, even

13 though we dispute its discoverability --

14 SPECIAL MASTER: I assume that you

15 dispute the discoverability of everything. But at my

16 request, you're kindly agreeing to produce the

17 following.

18 MR. ROTH: Well, subject to your Honor's

19 order, we would produce -- we were willing to agree

20 to the following: NS, AA --

21 SPECIAL MASTER: What is NS?

22 MR. ROTH: I don't remember. And I was

23 told that they're not really filled, the fields

24 aren't really filled.

25 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, let me try this,

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1 okay, because I'm going to look at this and maybe get

2 some sense out of it.

3 We're going to get the first and last

4 name of the original claimant?

5 MR. ROTH: Yes.

6 SPECIAL MASTER: We're going to get the

7 first and last name of whoever their representative

8 plaintiff is. Right?

9 MR. ROTH: Yes, sir.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. We're going to

11 get the address for the -- and I say representative

12 plaintiff, not in the sense of class representative,

13 but in the sense of somebody standing in the shoes of

14 a decedent.

15 Okay. So we're going to get the

16 address for that. We're going to get the cause of

17 death. We're going to get alternate contact, the

18 primary employer and the location of the primary

19 employer, the year they started employment, the year

20 their employment ended, their occupation, their

21 primary and/or secondary diagnoses.

22 MR. ASSAF: Film quality.

23 SPECIAL MASTER: I'm sorry?

24 MR. FARRELL: Yes, film quality and ILO

25 are going to be important fields for non-malignant

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1 claims, your Honor.

2 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Film quality and

3 ILO, whatever ILO may be.

4 MR. FARRELL: It's an organization that

5 has standards for reading chest x-rays to determine

6 whether they show markings or indicia of asbestos.

7 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. And what's the

8 state number? What is that?

9 MR. ROTH: That's the docket number.

10 There's a claim number.

11 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. And then the

12 date filed for that claim number and whether there

13 was a worker's comp. claim filed and a settlement,

14 the primary diagnosis date, secondary diagnosis date,

15 the doctor or secondary doctor.

16 I don't know what product ID means.

17 MR. ROTH: How you prove that they

18 were -- what the product was that they were exposed

19 to.

20 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. And memo, what

21 does that mean?

22 MR. ROTH: I don't know, your Honor.

23 Probably related to the product ID.

24 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. PFT?

25 MR. FARRELL: It's probably pulmonary

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1 function test. The next several fields, PFT,

2 physical exam, SVC, SEV, 1, TLC --

3 THE REPORTER: Mr. Farrell, excuse me,

4 when you read the letters like that -- if you'd start

5 again, I'd appreciate it.

6 MR. FARRELL: Let me take them slower.

7 THE REPORTER: Just because they're

8 letters, I don't know if they're separated or all

9 together.

10 MR. FARRELL: These again are all going

11 to be relevant to the non-malignant claims,

12 presumably.

13 PFT is probably pulmonary function test.

14 Physical exam presumably is just physical exam. FVC

15 is again a lung function reading. FEV 1 to FVC

16 ratio is again a lung function reading, as is TLC and

17 DLCO.

18 So if that information is available,

19 which it should be for anybody who's claiming

20 asbestosis or a similar non-malignant condition, the

21 plaintiffs have indicated they will produce it.

22 MR. PLACITELLA: It's not available for

23 everybody.

24 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

25 MR. PLACITELLA: Nor should it be. I'm

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1 just telling you as a matter of medical science, they

2 don't do a reading for PFTs for everybody.

3 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. And then we go

4 to the next page where we have CUY, underscore CTY,

5 underscore date, underscore PD.

6 So it's Cuyahoga County, date of what?

7 What's PD stand for? Is that probate?

8 MR. ROTH: I believe these are the

9 probate filings, your Honor, yes.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Because

11 underneath it's got probate approval, probate amount,

12 probate fee paid, probate fee description, Medicare

13 lien resolved, Medicare lien paid, Medicare lien I

14 assume it's decision.

15 MR. ROTH: Right.

16 SPECIAL MASTER: Medicare lien --

17 Medicare underscore PLRP, Medicare underscore PLRP

18 underscore PD, Medicare underscore PLRP underscore

19 DESCR, I assume that's description. Group, I don't

20 know what group that is, but it's group. Unfiled

21 POA, is that power of attorney or something else?

22 MR. ROTH: I believe that's power of

23 attorney, your Honor.

24 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Medicare

25 underscore SBMT. Probate, that's I assume whether a

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1 claim was submitted to Medicare. Probate attorney,

2 meds underscore received, secondary underscore

3 employer, secondary underscore years underscore EMP

4 underscore. I assume that's years employed. Then

5 we go through a lot of deletions.

6 MR. FARRELL: In the middle of the

7 deletions --

8 SPECIAL MASTER: Did I miss something?

9 MR. FARRELL: -- are the two fields talc

10 check number and talc check amount.

11 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

12 MR. FARRELL: There's no page numbers,

13 unfortunately, but in the mass of a bunch of redacted

14 fields.

15 MR. REILEY: It's the second to last one

16 I think.

17 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. I didn't get

18 that far I don't think. There they are. Okay.

19 We have talc underscore CHK underscore

20 no, which is talc check number. And then talc

21 underscore CHK underscore amount, which I guess is

22 talc check amount.

23 And then we get into other information,

24 packs underscore per underscore day, which I assume

25 is how many packs a day somebody smoked cigarettes.

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1 Year underscore began, I assume the year they started

2 smoking. Year underscore stopped. Year they

3 stopped smoking. VA underscore lien. Is that

4 Veterans Administration?

5 MR. FARRELL: That is, your Honor.

6 SPECIAL MASTER: Then military

7 underscore quest, underscore received, which I guess

8 an inquiry from the military. That's what quest

9 means, question or --

10 MR. ROTH: It may be a questionnaire

11 that was sent to the client from the firm.

12 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Well, whatever

13 it is, you've agreed to include it.

14 MR. ROTH: Let me be clear about agreed

15 to include it, because I don't want -- again, your

16 Honor, I think you understand our position, but you

17 know --

18 SPECIAL MASTER: But assuming that I

19 order it, you're going to produce this, of course

20 subject to a Federal Rule of Evidence 502(d) order.

21 MR. ROTH: Yes, your Honor. We don't

22 want this transcript floating around that plaintiffs'

23 counsel has agreed to give putative class members'

24 discovery information to the defendants in this case

25 now or ever.

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: You're being very

2 accommodating because I twisted your arm.

3 MR. ROTH: Okay.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: Military underscore

5 service. Branch underscore of underscore service.

6 Service underscore start underscore date. These

7 seem self-evident. Service underscore end

8 underscore date. Basic underscore training

9 underscore site. Basic underscore training

10 underscore city. Basic underscore training

11 underscore state. Basic underscore started. Basic

12 underscore ended. Military underscore base.

13 Location underscore of underscore military underscore

14 base. Base underscore started. Base underscore

15 ended. Location underscore of. Underscore military

16 underscore base, 2. And then the same thing,

17 started and ended. Same thing in regard to military

18 base 3. Ship underscore service. Name of ship.

19 Years underscore on underscore ship. And then the

20 same thing for ship number 2. Name underscore of

21 underscore transport underscore ship. That's for

22 those people in the poor Army who get shipped around

23 by the Navy. Transport underscore ship underscore

24 years. Search underscore last, last name, search

25 underscore first, first name. Post underscore 1980.

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1 I don't know what that means. And apparently

2 neither does anyone else. And then filing sheets,

3 whatever that may be.

4 MR. FARRELL: Post 1980 is presumably

5 whether Medicare can assert a lien or not against

6 settlements.

7 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. And that then

8 leaves us with the three categories that were at

9 issue here today. And those are the identity of the

10 referring attorney, whether any of the Bevan

11 plaintiffs qualified for or received payments from an

12 asbestos settlement trust, and compensation received

13 by the Bevan plaintiffs regardless.

14 In respect of those three, nothing has

15 been presented that would justify withholding the

16 information concerning the referral attorney.

17 As I said very early on, I do not

18 believe that that is a trade secret. I do not

19 believe that it is confidential.

20 But in order to protect whatever

21 concerns may be, any production made of the database

22 will be done pursuant -- for attorneys' eyes only

23 pursuant to the confidentiality disclosure order.

24 And that should resolve any concerns as to that. So

25 that will be produced.

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1 The second category is whether the Bevan

2 plaintiffs qualified for or received payment from an

3 asbestos settlement trust.

4 The fact of having qualified or received

5 payment is not confidential in my view. The amount

6 may be. But the fact is not.

7 So disclosure of the fact of having

8 qualified for or received payment from an asbestos

9 settlement trust will be produced, again, subject to

10 a confidentiality discovery order.

11 And finally, whether the Bevan

12 plaintiffs received any compensation other than from

13 the settlement trust. And again, the fact of that

14 will be produced, not the amount.

15 Now, that said, this entire order will

16 be subject to Federal Rule of Evidence 502(d), which

17 specifically will say, and the order will contain the

18 language, that the privilege or protection that has

19 been asserted is not waived by disclosure connected

20 with the litigation pending before this Court, in

21 which event the disclosure is also not a waiver in

22 any other federal or state proceeding.

23 So no one's waived anything here.

24 MR. PLACITELLA: And is not precedent

25 for any other application, because they've already

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1 announced that once they get the information here,

2 they intend to go to Kansas and California and do the

3 exact same thing. And that's the slippery slope

4 that we're on.

5 SPECIAL MASTER: You need to help me

6 with that, Mr. Placitella, because I don't understand

7 what that --

8 MR. PLACITELLA: BASF is taking the

9 position that they're entitled to this information.

10 It's our position they're entitled to

11 none of it from putative chase members. And we

12 preserve our right to appeal as if it was ordered.

13 They've taken the further position that

14 once they get the information here, they're going to

15 seek similar information as relates to other

16 plaintiffs around the country.

17 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, they can do that

18 in other cases, subject to --

19 MR. PLACITELLA: No, I'm talking about

20 in this case.

21 SPECIAL MASTER: Well --

22 MR. PLACITELLA: In this case. They've

23 announced in briefing --

24 SPECIAL MASTER: Let us jump up off that

25 bridge if and when we get to it.

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1 But I will tell you that my decision is

2 limited to what is in front of me right now. If

3 something else happens in respect of it later on, I

4 will address it then.

5 But I want everybody to understand that

6 what I tried to do was to come up with a compromise

7 that respected everybody's rights while still moving

8 the case forward. So that's going to be my order.

9 If the plaintiffs think that they need

10 to seek review of that order, that's up to you.

11 MR. PLACITELLA: Thank you, your Honor.

12 MR. FARRELL: Can I raise one minor

13 point, your Honor --

14 SPECIAL MASTER: Sure.

15 MR. FARRELL: -- that I think falls

16 within the compromise you just outlined, but I just

17 wanted to be clear on it.

18 On the very last page of the database

19 entries document you were just reading from, the

20 third to last field is settlements underscore total.

21 And then there's a number provided there.

22 I think that that field could be

23 produced respecting the compromise your Honor laid

24 out since it does not identify the party that the

25 settlement came from or any individual defendant.

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1 It's just giving a total amount for the plaintiff as

2 opposed to parties who may be on the other side of

3 confidentiality agreements.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: That may become

5 relevant later on. Not right now.

6 MR. ASSAF: And following up on that

7 comment, your Honor, I don't -- I won't say I know

8 where you're going with this, but let me put this on

9 the record because I think there's going to be an

10 issue from the meet and confer.

11 On the individual amounts of the various

12 settlements, at the meet and confer just now that you

13 ordered, we said okay, but you are to be then

14 precluded from having an expert or anybody else now

15 rely on those individual amounts since you've

16 prevented us from getting them.

17 And they -- and I think there's some

18 uncertainty. And all I'd like is just some clarity

19 that if they're going to use the settlement amounts

20 through their experts, I actually get them when they

21 start looking at them as opposed to getting an expert

22 report that says: Oh, I've been churning this data

23 for four months and here's what I found.

24 SPECIAL MASTER: Mr. Assaf, you know as

25 well as I do that if they rely on an expert, you're

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1 entitled to everything that that expert relied on.

2 Basic discovery. So if an expert relied upon

3 something that has not been disclosed, you're

4 entitled to that.

5 And you'll make arguments then that not

6 only go to the substance but also the process. And

7 we'll entertain those when and if they occur.

8 MR. ROTH: There's one other point, your

9 Honor, to raise about our meet and confer, which was

10 to the extent that your Honor was going to order

11 production of part of the fields of the database for

12 putative class members, that we want it to be clear,

13 and I believe we are, I just wanted to report to your

14 Honor.

15 I don't know how many of the Bevan firm

16 clients are run through this database. And I'm not

17 suggesting that any of us do.

18 I wanted it to be clear because it's

19 something that we had talked about producing all of

20 the clients. And a lot of that was just because I

21 don't know that anybody was thinking about it. I

22 don't think anybody was trying to gain unfair

23 advantage or any of that kind of thing.

24 But given your Honor's order, it relates

25 to putative class members, not every asbestos client

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1 that's ever been in the Bevan firm, only people who

2 may be part of this class.

3 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, as currently

4 defined --

5 MR. ROTH: Yes your Honor.

6 SPECIAL MASTER: -- which is pretty much

7 anybody who was within the neighborhood of some

8 asbestos at any time in the last 40 years.

9 MR. ROTH: Well, that's not true.

10 MR. PLACITELLA: That's not true.

11 MR. ROTH: It's actually related to

12 people who may have had talc claims.

13 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

14 MR. ROTH: I mean, we pled a pretty

15 broad complaint --

16 SPECIAL MASTER: You did.

17 MR. ROTH: -- but it's not that broad,

18 your Honor.

19 SPECIAL MASTER: You did. I thought it

20 was -- but, you know, I have the number ingrained in

21 my head. It's paragraph 278.

22 MR. PLACITELLA: It will be more focused

23 in two weeks.

24 MR. ROTH: Well, we also agree that it's

25 related to talc.

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: No, I lied. I did not

2 get that right. I thought it was 278. Where's the

3 definition? Oh, here it is. 286. All persons in

4 the United States and its territories who were

5 exposed to BASF's talc and/or talc products sustained

6 asbestos related injury and prior to the commencement

7 of this litigation either (A) filed a lawsuit or

8 other claim for compensation against BASF and by

9 reason of BASF's statements that its talc and talc

10 products did not contain asbestos or that there was

11 no evidence its talc and talc products contained

12 asbestos settled, withdrew, voluntarily dismissed, or

13 suffered an involuntary dismissal of such lawsuit or

14 claim for compensation; or (B) by reason of BASF's

15 statements that its talc and talc products did not

16 contain asbestos or that there was no evidence it

17 contained asbestos did not file a lawsuit or other

18 claim for compensation against BASF. Period.

19 The class shall also include those who

20 have had or had the right to claim damages

21 derivatively based upon such exposed person's

22 asbestos related injury.

23 Okay. That's the class definition that

24 we operate on until Mr. Placitella is going to

25 surprise all of us two weeks from today with a far

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1 more limited class.

2 Right, Mr. Placitella? Don't answer

3 that.

4 Anything else on that application?

5 Good.

6 Let's go to the motion concerning the

7 interrogatories. On December 15, 2017, under ECF

8 285, BASF filed a motion to compel answers to

9 interrogatories -- I'm sorry, Mr. Little, I didn't

10 see you.

11 MR. LITTLE: Your Honor, if the Bevan

12 firm's presence is no longer required.

13 SPECIAL MASTER: Does that mean you're

14 going to deny us the joy of your presence?

15 MR. LITTLE: With your permission of

16 course.

17 SPECIAL MASTER: Of course.

18 MR. LITTLE: Thank you very much.

19 SPECIAL MASTER: You're going to work

20 with these folks in getting --

21 MR. LITTLE: Absolutely.

22 SPECIAL MASTER: -- the information?

23 Thank you very much. I appreciate you coming down.

24 Have a safe a trip home.

25 MR. LITTLE: Yeah. Thanks for

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1 accommodating my trial schedule.

2 SPECIAL MASTER: That's why I wanted to

3 take you first, because you don't have a dog in the

4 fight for the rest of this.

5 MR. LITTLE: Thank you, your Honor. I

6 appreciate that.

7 SPECIAL MASTER: We have two sets of

8 interrogatories that are at issue.

9 The first set of interrogatories was

10 propounded on October 23rd, 2015. And the second set

11 of interrogatories was propounded on November 7,

12 2017.

13 In respect of the first set of

14 interrogatories, BASF states that the plaintiffs have

15 failed to supplement their answers after subsequent

16 discovery rulings and that the August 3, 2017,

17 decision by Chief Judge Linares re a waiver had the

18 result that answers were to be provided pursuant to

19 the proposed form of order that was submitted.

20 We can do very short work of that.

21 Everyone consents to the entry of that proposed form

22 of order. So we're not going to spend a whole lot

23 of time talking about the first set of

24 interrogatories.

25 MR. FARRELL: I think the proposed order

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1 was overtaken by the amended interrogatories that

2 were provided by the plaintiffs, which in our view

3 were still deficient and were the subject of the

4 e-mail that we sent to your Honor.

5 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. We'll come back

6 to that.

7 MR. FARRELL: Okay.

8 SPECIAL MASTER: You guys and your

9 e-mails.

10 In respect of the second set of

11 interrogatories, BASF states that they are seeking

12 what plaintiffs' alleged damages are, plaintiffs'

13 alleged, quote, original, unquote, documents, and

14 third, facts in support of plaintiffs' class action

15 or class certification motion, which has not yet been

16 filed.

17 As to damages, which are addressed in

18 interrogatory 1 of the second set, BASF seeks the

19 amount of damages, the method of calculating damages,

20 the basis for calculating damages, and how the

21 damages here differed from damages sought in the

22 underlying cases.

23 In respect of the original documents,

24 which is interrogatory number 4 of the second set,

25 basically BASF says that we were required to produce

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1 originals, they should be required to produce

2 originals. And their complaints as to originals

3 we're just repeating, which may not have been the

4 best thing for you guys to say.

5 The third category is class

6 certification. And those are interrogatories 2, 3,

7 5, 6, 7, and 8 of the second set of interrogatories

8 that seeks information about the putative class and

9 class certification.

10 And BASF says we're fine if that

11 information gets produced contemporaneous with the

12 filing of the class certification motion.

13 Now, you said that at the time when you

14 thought that was happening today. But I'm sure that

15 you'd be happy to get it two weeks from today also.

16 On December the 20th under ECF 390,

17 scheduling order number 4 set forth the schedule for

18 the filing of oppositions and replies.

19 On December 27, 2017, under ECF 396 the

20 plaintiffs filed their opposition where they agreed

21 to the entry of the proposed consent order, which was

22 docketed under ECF 384-12.

23 Therefore, the motion in respect of the

24 first set of interrogatories was moot.

25 The problem is I have since then

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1 received an e-mail dated January 5, 2018, from Mr.

2 Farrell that basically says we got non-answers. I

3 think that was more kindly said than you said it.

4 In respect of the second set of

5 interrogatories, the plaintiffs allege that the

6 second set of interrogatories are premature and the

7 current responses are sufficient and proper.

8 In respect of interrogatory number 1,

9 again we're talking about the second set of

10 interrogatories, that they are unnecessary and

11 premature, that they deal with damages and we're not

12 there yet.

13 And in respect of interrogatories 2, 3,

14 5, 6, 7, and 8, those too are premature. These deal

15 with the Rule 23 certification requirements.

16 According to plaintiffs, these are beyond the mandate

17 of hydrogen peroxide, that there will be ample

18 opportunity for discovery once the class

19 certification motion is filed, that the allegations

20 of the inadequacy of the class reps is not supported

21 by law and has nothing to do with pre-certification

22 motion discovery.

23 The plaintiffs state that the request

24 that they serve verified responses with their class

25 certification motion should be denied, that

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1 interrogatory number 4 about original documents seeks

2 information that's not relevant to claims or

3 defenses.

4 On January 3, 2018, under ECF 397, BASF

5 in reply says the information sought is not

6 premature, and again, this is as to the second set of

7 interrogatories, that interrogatory number 1 is not

8 premature and seeks basic damages information that

9 should already have been disclosed, that

10 interrogatories 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, and 8 seek basic Rule

11 23 information, that interrogatory 4, which deals

12 with original documents, response to or is prevented

13 by further discovery concerning BASF's original

14 documents, and in respect of the first set of

15 interrogatories it suggests that the order should be

16 supplemented.

17 Now, to go to Mr. Farrell's January 5,

18 2018, e-mail, where BASF comments on plaintiffs'

19 supplemental/amended answers to the first set of

20 interrogatories. And he lists seven problems with

21 them. First, that the general objections remain

22 unchanged.

23 Second, in respect of interrogatory

24 number 1, not a single person is in fact named.

25 Third, that in respect of interrogatory

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1 number 4, the settlement with other entities without

2 details is not helpful.

3 Number 4, interrogatory number 12, there

4 was no change in the response whether there was a

5 decision to settle with Engelhard.

6 In respect to number 5 in respect of

7 interrogatory number 13, the efforts re the

8 prosecution of claims against Engelhard, nothing

9 substantive was changed in the answers.

10 Number 6, that there were no amended

11 responses or answers to interrogatories concerning

12 plaintiff Wengerd.

13 And number 7, that the Pease and Ware

14 responses were verified by non-parties without any

15 substitution of parties having occurred.

16 It's your motion. If you want to tell

17 me something I don't already know, please feel free.

18 MR. FARRELL: I think your Honor

19 accurately summarized what our position is, so I

20 won't go back through the whole thing.

21 You did initially note that when we said

22 that for the second set of interrogatories we said

23 that January 15th would be acceptable. Here we are

24 on January 15th. I assume we're not getting a second

25 set of interrogatories today. The point --

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: No, because I think the

2 discussion was we'll give it to you when we file our

3 motion for class cert.

4 MR. ASSAF: Correct.

5 SPECIAL MASTER: And since that moved

6 two weeks, I assume that plaintiffs also would move

7 that response date two weeks.

8 MR. FARRELL: Well, that was the point I

9 wanted to make is that plaintiffs' opposition

10 actually said they won't even give us the responses

11 with their class motion, that the responses would

12 come at some undefined point later in time.

13 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, okay, that date's

14 not going to be undefined, so you can get past that.

15 MR. FARRELL: Okay. So the crux of the

16 issue is there's no factual information provided at

17 all and no timeline for provided providing it.

18 Your Honor correctly noted that it falls

19 into three categories. And let me speak to each of

20 the three briefly because I think some of them are

21 easier to knock out than others.

22 First, on plaintiffs' damages, which is

23 interrogatory number 1 in the second set, it's really

24 not a class related interrogatory. It's about the

25 six plaintiffs' individual damages. There's no

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1 prematurity issue or any other issue that turns on

2 the class motion.

3 In fact, Rule 26(a) calls for the

4 disclosure of damages information as one of the very

5 first things that is supposed to occur in discovery

6 in a case.

7 That hasn't occurred here. And we did

8 get initial disclosures, but no damages information

9 was provided.

10 Your Honor raised this issue as well at

11 the October 2017 hearing. And plaintiffs couldn't

12 answer the Court's questions about what their theory

13 of damages was.

14 All we're saying is here we are several

15 months into the discovery, regardless of whether a

16 class could be or would be certified in this case,

17 we're entitled to the plaintiffs' theory and basis

18 for their individual damages claim. And that hasn't

19 been provided.

20 So I don't think that one turns on the

21 timing of the class motion at all. It should just be

22 ordered to provide the information to the defendants

23 since it's long overdue given what Rule 26(a) says.

24 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Are you done

25 with interrogatory 1?

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1 MR. FARRELL: Yes.

2 SPECIAL MASTER: Who's responding on

3 plaintiffs' behalf?

4 MR. ROTH: Mr. Coren.

5 SPECIAL MASTER: Whoa. I think you just

6 got thrown under the bus there, Mr. Coren.

7 MR. ROTH: No, I'm kidding, your Honor.

8 I just wanted to see --

9 SPECIAL MASTER: See if he was still

10 awake.

11 MR. ROTH: See that reaction.

12 Your Honor, we do view it as part of the

13 class issue here. And the reason being that --

14 SPECIAL MASTER: Let me ask you this

15 question.

16 MR. ROTH: Yes, sir.

17 SPECIAL MASTER: Are you going to

18 respond to interrogatory number 1 in the second set

19 in a meaningful way on the 29th of this month?

20 MR. ROTH: All of the information

21 regarding the class and how we intend to prove it I

22 believe is --

23 SPECIAL MASTER: That's not my question

24 to you. My question to you is --

25 MR. ROTH: Do you mean in addition to --

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: My question to you is I

2 was given one representative set of interrogatories

3 which were as to plaintiff Kimberlee Williams. And I

4 assume that identical --

5 MR. ROTH: Correct.

6 SPECIAL MASTER: -- were issued as to

7 each one of the named representative plaintiffs.

8 And interrogatory number 1 says, and I

9 quote: Describe all damages, losses, harm, or other

10 relief which you, it's capital Y, which is defined as

11 Miss Williams, contend BASF is responsible, including

12 but not limited to: (A) the amount of damages, loss,

13 harm, or other relief, (B) the method for calculating

14 that damage, loss, harm, or other relief, (C) the

15 basis for calculating that damage, loss, harm, or

16 other relief, and (D) how that damage, loss, harm, or

17 other relief differs if at all from the damages

18 decedent claimed in his original complaint in the

19 underlying action. And decedent is a defined term

20 and underlying action is a defined term.

21 Are you going to produce responses in

22 respect of all six of the named representative

23 plaintiffs that answer interrogatory number 1 on

24 January 29th?

25 MR. ROTH: I don't know, your Honor.

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1 And I don't think so.

2 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

3 MR. ROTH: I mean, unless there's an

4 order obviously.

5 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

6 MR. ROTH: But --

7 SPECIAL MASTER: If there's an order

8 will you provide it?

9 MR. ROTH: Let the record reflect I'm

10 smiling, your Honor.

11 And if there's an order, I would. But I

12 would submit to your Honor that it remains premature

13 given what the nature of this class may be and --

14 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, but you're going

15 to be able to define that -- I mean, regardless of

16 how the class is defined, you have six representative

17 plaintiffs who are named. Okay.

18 Interrogatories have been propounded to

19 each one of those representative plaintiffs. And

20 the answer is: Are those representative plaintiffs

21 whose case goes on with or without a class

22 certification motion, whether you're going respond in

23 respect of those six?

24 And don't answer, because you did answer

25 already. You said: If I get ordered to I will.

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1 So I guess the ball is now in my court.

2 MR. ROTH: Well, my hesitation, your

3 Honor, was only one with respect to timing. Will we

4 answer those? Yes, we will.

5 But I am not certain, your Honor, that

6 we will have the trial expert testimony, which would

7 be part of a damage -- a response to damages

8 interrogatories prepared for these individual

9 plaintiffs.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

11 MR. ROTH: And that's really what my

12 hesitation was. Not if, but when.

13 SPECIAL MASTER: All right. Well,

14 you're going to do the best you can, I'm sure.

15 But I will note for the record that

16 these interrogatories were originally propounded on

17 November the 7th of 2017. So they have been out

18 there for over two months.

19 MR. ROTH: Yes, your Honor.

20 SPECIAL MASTER: All right. That

21 deals with interrogatory number 1 of the second set.

22 Talk to me about, Mr. Farrell, about

23 interrogatory number 4.

24 MR. FARRELL: So this deals with the

25 question of original documents. And on this one we

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1 tried to explain the background for the issue in the

2 brief.

3 But if I could just expand on that

4 briefly, our view, the defendant's view or BASF's

5 view is that the original documents issue is frankly

6 a red herring. It's one that the plaintiffs have

7 created. And they created it because they initially

8 alleged in this case that BASF had destroyed all

9 sorts of relevant information, all sorts of documents

10 concerning the talc business.

11 BASF then found hundreds of those

12 documents and produced them. And so plaintiffs then

13 shifted their position and said: Well, you found

14 copies but you didn't find originals, where originals

15 they mean I want the actual blue ink version of this

16 document from 1975, not the copy that you found. So

17 we have --

18 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. You can stop

19 there.

20 Mr. Roth, tell me the basis of your

21 argument based on Federal Rule of Evidence 1003.

22 MR. ROTH: For which part, your Honor?

23 We have produced --

24 SPECIAL MASTER: Demanding -- the whole

25 business about producing documents that are either

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1 originals or copies.

2 MR. ROTH: That we demanded?

3 SPECIAL MASTER: No. They've demanded

4 it from you.

5 MR. ROTH: Right. We've produced

6 copies, your Honor. They're talking about

7 originals.

8 SPECIAL MASTER: They're saying if you

9 have originals --

10 MR. ROTH: They're upset that we had

11 sought original documents like micrographs. They're

12 upset that we had reason to question when original

13 documents were produced, for instance, learning about

14 a piece of correspondence months after depositions

15 were done.

16 They're upset that we made a defendant

17 or the successor to a defendant search for original

18 evidence and now have sought from the victims of a

19 fraud perpetrated originals, not copies.

20 SPECIAL MASTER: Alleged fraud. Fraud

21 hasn't been proven yet.

22 MR. ROTH: I'm sorry, I thought I -- it

23 is an alleged fraud, your Honor. You're correct.

24 And so they're upset that we have sought

25 that information, particularly where some of these

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1 original documents are relevant.

2 We have -- or may be relevant, your

3 Honor, in the form of actual scientific results from

4 studies that are done.

5 The quality is different if it is an

6 original or a copy. And I'll let Mr. Placitella

7 speak to that if you need more information.

8 There is no basis for -- so now they

9 have sought to have these people who are not the

10 original plaintiffs in the underlying cases go look

11 for originals because the copies that we produced are

12 apparently not adequate.

13 It is disproportional. It is for the

14 purpose of, you know, getting back at the lawyers who

15 have sought information.

16 SPECIAL MASTER: So they're just being

17 cranky is what you're saying?

18 MR. ROTH: Okay.

19 MR. FARRELL: It's not function of being

20 cranky and it's not a function of being upset, your

21 Honor. The issue --

22 SPECIAL MASTER: I know you're never

23 cranky. But Mr. Assaf gets cranky every so often.

24 MR. FARRELL: Well, he's not even cranky

25 about this one.

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1 MR. ASSAF: No, I'm not, because it's

2 just -- believe me.

3 MR. FARRELL: This is again in the

4 category of goose and gander. The plaintiffs'

5 demands of BASF were not limited as just described by

6 Mr. Roth to photomicrographs and so on.

7 The deposition that Mr. Placitella

8 referred to of the BASF corporate representative that

9 lasted for three days, a notice that has been served

10 in this case too on identical grounds calls for

11 things like the original, quote/unquote, deposition

12 transcripts from 1983.

13 SPECIAL MASTER: Help me out here, Mr.

14 Farrell. None of that has occurred in this case.

15 MR. FARRELL: It has occurred in this

16 case.

17 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Has it occurred

18 since I've been appointed?

19 MR. FARRELL: No.

20 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Because my

21 answer would have been very simple. Those of us who

22 learned evidence from Irving Younger, and there are

23 few of us old enough in this room to say that, know

24 about the best evidence rule, okay, which is codified

25 in the federal rules, Rule 1002, 1003.

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1 And it basically says that unless you

2 are attacking the authenticity of the copy, a copy is

3 just as good as an original.

4 And I haven't heard anybody attack the

5 authenticity of a copy, that it somehow was marked up

6 in a way that changed it from the original or

7 something goofy happened in respect of it.

8 So I would have said: Why are you

9 arguing about originals, unless you're telling me

10 that something awful happened to the original and

11 therefore there's a problem.

12 So if the sauce is good for the goose

13 and the gander, I would say to you what I would have

14 said to them had the application been before me,

15 which is: Come on, guys, it's the year of our Lord

16 2018. We are well past documents being done by

17 scriveners using quill pens. Copies are used all the

18 time.

19 I can tell you at this firm as well as

20 I'm sure all of the firms involved in this lawsuit,

21 you know, nobody keeps paper copies anymore.

22 Everything's electronic. And when you need it, you

23 print it out.

24 So let's not get too crazed about that.

25 MR. FARRELL: I couldn't agree more,

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1 your Honor. And I think we said as much in our

2 papers. If the original, quote/unquote, documents

3 issue is removed from the case and the copies are as

4 good as originals, we are more than happy with that.

5 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, why don't we wait

6 to see what Mr. Placitella and Mr. Roth produce. If

7 there's a problem in respect of the authenticity of

8 the copies, we'll deal with those.

9 MR. ROTH: Your Honor, we've been

10 producing documents. We've identified the documents

11 we've produced.

12 The dispute here is originals. And

13 let's be clear. And I don't -- only because Mr.

14 Farrell has raised it. We haven't filed a motion on

15 this. It is not before your Honor.

16 This is not a goose/gander situation.

17 Number 1, we've got clients who were told their cases

18 were meaningless or nonexistent. It's the Rosenblit

19 situation. What they have, they have. We've

20 produced it.

21 Number 2 -- and again, I don't want to

22 get into -- I forget the ballet phrase that you used.

23 SPECIAL MASTER: Lateral arabesque.

24 MR. ROTH: Okay. I don't want to --

25 I'm throwing a little bit of a lateral arabesque.

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1 But the difference is --

2 SPECIAL MASTER: You don't look well

3 doing it.

4 MR. ROTH: With or without a beard.

5 The --

6 SPECIAL MASTER: Did I throw you off?

7 Sorry.

8 MR. ROTH: Again, there's so much to

9 unpack here, your Honor.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: I know.

11 MR. ROTH: I have myself in tights. I

12 used to be able to --

13 SPECIAL MASTER: Oh, please. That's

14 way -- that's a hundred thousand dollars right there

15 of psychiatric treatment. So let's not go there.

16 MR. COHEN: It will take weeks to get

17 that image out of my head.

18 MR. ROTH: Some of the discovery

19 depositions, for instance, that had been at issue

20 that were taken in the 80s, we haven't gotten all the

21 exhibits. There have been pages missing. That's a

22 fight for another day.

23 But I highlight for your Honor and I

24 appreciate your reminder about the best evidence

25 rule, which should have been number one in my

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1 response.

2 SPECIAL MASTER: I wondered why no one

3 raised it. And I figured that just those of us who

4 had the benefit of Irving Younger as our teacher

5 would know that.

6 MR. FARRELL: BASF, your Honor, last

7 been raising it for approximately five years in

8 response to Mr. Placitella's demand for original,

9 quote/unquote, documents from 40 years ago that we

10 have copies and copies are as good as originals.

11 That is what gave rise to our

12 interrogatory was the fact that Mr. Placitella was

13 not satisfied by the copies and has claimed to have a

14 standard for spoliation that rises and falls on

15 having the blue inked original documents as opposed

16 to copies is what brought us to the goose/gander

17 issue of if that's the standard for spoliation, then

18 Mr. Placitella needs to live by it as well.

19 MR. ROTH: And our clients have not been

20 accused of spoliating evidence.

21 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, they don't know

22 yet. And that's their point. They don't know enough

23 to be able to say that.

24 MR. ROTH: As we sit here now, your

25 Honor, they have not been, nor do they have the same

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1 duty that BASF has. And I think --

2 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, all parties have

3 a duty to preserve evidence that they intend to rely

4 on or that the other side should have been able to

5 rely on. We all agree to that.

6 We also need to all agree that we need

7 to stop this tit-for-tat stuff. Okay. It's

8 unbecoming to everybody. It's just unbecoming.

9 And I understand, believe me, I

10 understand that when you're in the middle of a swamp

11 and you're up to your rear end in alligators, it's

12 hard to remember that your purpose was to drain the

13 swamp.

14 But we're trying to drain the swamp

15 here, guys. So let's try to keep our eye on that

16 prize and make sure we get to where we need to go.

17 I think I've made it clear enough what I

18 think is the standard for admissibility of documents.

19 I don't think that Chief Judge Linares has a

20 different view of that. So how about we stick to

21 that.

22 If you get a copy -- and I'm telling

23 this to everybody. If you get a copy and you have a

24 legitimate reason to think that there is something

25 wrong with that copy, then absolutely you have the

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1 right to demand the original.

2 But short of that, in this day and age,

3 I will tell you I have tried entire cases where every

4 document that was produced in the courtroom, and

5 there were hundreds of thousands of them, were done

6 electronically. There wasn't a piece of paper in the

7 courtroom.

8 And if you could do that at trial, you

9 certainly ought to be able to do that in discovery.

10 Yes, Mr. Placitella?

11 MR. PLACITELLA: I agree with what your

12 Honor said.

13 Mr. Farrell as an advocate does not

14 accurately state my position. And that is not an

15 accurate characterization of my position.

16 And when he files his motion for summary

17 judgment on spoliation, I will articulate my position

18 adequately. And I will tell you that it will be

19 consonant and consistent with what you've articulated

20 here.

21 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, that means that

22 you're a very smart guy. Okay.

23 So now that we have resolved -- and

24 we're going to come back to these -- but

25 interrogatories 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, and 8 of the second

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1 set. These are class cert interrogatories. What's

2 the problem with those?

3 MR. ROTH: I'm sorry?

4 SPECIAL MASTER: What's the problem with

5 responding to those?

6 MR. ROTH: We'll respond to those, your

7 Honor. But it's all going to be information that's

8 going to be in our class cert motion.

9 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. But you're going

10 to file amended answers to interrogatories 2, 3, 5,

11 6, 7, and 8 of the second set of interrogatories on

12 the 29th of this month?

13 MR. ROTH: No, your Honor. There

14 are --

15 SPECIAL MASTER: Yes, you are.

16 MR. ROTH: Well, what I meant, your

17 Honor, was --

18 SPECIAL MASTER: I tried to say that

19 politely, but you're not letting me.

20 MR. ROTH: Not withstanding --

21 SPECIAL MASTER: This is like having a

22 discussion with your wife. You're not going to win,

23 okay.

24 MR. ROTH: Right. And you know what

25 the challenge is, your Honor. It's the same thing I

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1 have when I have a conversation with my wife. I

2 think it's actually a conversation. Right. I

3 understand that now, your Honor. It's not. But --

4 SPECIAL MASTER: It's like when my wife

5 says to me: You don't want dessert, do you?

6 MR. ROTH: Right.

7 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

8 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm going to just jump

9 in here and try to save the both of you --

10 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

11 MR. PLACITELLA: -- on the wife issue

12 and move on.

13 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Thank you.

14 MR. ROTH: Each and every person who

15 filed an action against BASF based upon their

16 exposure to Amtal talc, at this point, your Honor,

17 that's information that we do not yet have. What we

18 do --

19 SPECIAL MASTER: Do the best you can.

20 MR. ROTH: Well, what we know is that's

21 information that Kirkland & Ellis and BASF have.

22 SPECIAL MASTER: But they're entitled to

23 test that information based upon your information.

24 The mere fact that they already have

25 that information does not relieve you as a party to

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1 this lawsuit to producing information that's in your

2 control.

3 MR. ROTH: The information that we

4 have -- well, that's fine, your Honor. I submit to

5 you -- because I can tell you now without a plaintiff

6 who doesn't know and will be relying on counsel's

7 advice that we're not going to be able to answer the

8 question of who each and every person is who filed a

9 lawsuit against BASF.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: But what I do know is

11 that you're going do the best you can.

12 MR. FARRELL: As your Honor might have

13 guessed, part of the reason we asked the question is

14 because we thought the answer would be they don't

15 know.

16 SPECIAL MASTER: They don't know.

17 Listen, everything --

18 MR. ROTH: And that's right. And that's

19 going to be the answer for some of these -- for

20 these. And that isn't relevant to the issue of

21 whether or not we can get the class we seek certified

22 at this point in time.

23 SPECIAL MASTER: All right.

24 MR. ROTH: Is it possible for us to

25 learn that? Yes, it is. Do we need to know it to

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1 get class certification or for the case to move

2 forward? Respectfully, no, we don't.

3 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Well, I'll make

4 this clear again --

5 MR. ROTH: Oh, no, I got it.

6 SPECIAL MASTER: -- when I issue the

7 decision. But I'm not asking anybody to make things

8 up. I'm asking you to do the best you can to give

9 us meaningful responses to the interrogatories.

10 And candidly, I think the rule of thumb

11 everybody should follow is think if I were

12 propounding these interrogatories, what kind of

13 response, what caliber of response would I like to

14 see back? Okay. It's a variant of the golden rule.

15 Use that as your standard and you'll be fine with me

16 as far as -- I'm not going to ask you to produce

17 what you don't have. I'm not going to ask you to

18 produce something there's no way you can know it.

19 But what I am going to ask you to do is

20 to do the best you can under the circumstances. And

21 if you can't, you can't. Tell us that. And we'll

22 deal with it.

23 And if you can produce 50 percent but

24 not 100 percent, tell us that too.

25 But what I want to see is a legitimate,

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1 bona fide effort by people to respond to

2 interrogatories. I want to see answers that are

3 responsive. And I'm going to get to that in one

4 moment. But they need to be responsive, because to

5 give everybody fair notice, if we have to revisit

6 these issues, they will come with sanctions. Okay.

7 I don't want to do that.

8 I think you've gotten a sense already

9 from me that that's not the way I like to operate.

10 But at some point or another, and it

11 applies to everybody in this lawsuit, at some point

12 or another people got to do what they've got to do

13 and that which they are obliged to do under the

14 rules. And that is provide meaningful answers. And

15 in doing so, do the best that you can. And if you

16 can't respond to something, say why you can't.

17 But using amorphous language, to put in

18 a lot of words and say nothing is not helpful. It's

19 just not helpful.

20 Just like I find people do general

21 objections and they throw everything and the kitchen

22 sink in. There are courts, federal courts in this

23 country that will sanction you if you do that. They

24 won't give you a second chance. You're going to get

25 sanctioned.

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1 And in fact, there are some judges I

2 know that if you use any general objections, they

3 will sanction you because they don't think that

4 that's satisfactory based upon a party's obligations

5 to disclosure under the rules.

6 Now, I'm not going to be that crazed, at

7 least not in respect of that point.

8 But we need to get answers. They

9 propounded interrogatories properly. It's the

10 obligation of the responding party to respond. And

11 if you want to object, you can object. But unless

12 you have a legitimate objection, you have to respond.

13 And frankly, I'm of the view that even

14 if you have an objection, you state your objection,

15 but then you say without waiving the objection,

16 here's the answer. And do the best that you can.

17 MR. ROTH: Which we have done in some of

18 these responses, your Honor. And I point to

19 interrogatory number 6.

20 But I understand your Honor's comments

21 and look forward to hearing your Honor's order.

22 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Now, in respect

23 of the original interrogatories, one of the questions

24 that I had as I was going through all of this was:

25 Have the answers been provided?

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1 And Mr. Farrell's January 5th e-mail

2 answers answered that for me. And I printed out the

3 marked up versions that Mr. Farrell was kind enough

4 to provide me. And I printed them out in color

5 because I wanted to see what the differences were in

6 a stark way.

7 And I will tell you that my conclusion

8 was that all of the changes that were made were

9 non-substantive. They were changing from active

10 voice to passive voice or vice versa. It was an

11 exercise in grammar and not an exercise in responding

12 to interrogatories.

13 So I will tell you that in respect of

14 the answers to interrogatories that were provided and

15 the amended answers to interrogatories that were

16 provided, they are both deficient in my view.

17 And I'm going to ask you to go back and

18 take a hard look. And the only thing that's being

19 pressed in respect of the first set of

20 interrogatories is interrogatory number 1. Okay.

21 I want you to go back, take a real hard look at

22 interrogatory number 1 from the first set of

23 interrogatories, which is the damages calculation. I

24 think that's correct.

25 MR. ROTH: It's the second set, your

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1 Honor.

2 SPECIAL MASTER: Oh, that's the second

3 set. Let me make sure that I've got --

4 MR. FARRELL: In the first set of

5 interrogatories, there were three or four of them.

6 It was number 1 on the identity of individuals.

7 SPECIAL MASTER: I'm sorry. We got

8 this -- you put the second set first in your

9 submission. Now why do you have to do that to me?

10 MR. ASSAF: That was a debate actually.

11 MR. FARRELL: Because we --

12 SPECIAL MASTER: Whoever said put the

13 second set first lost. Don't tell me who it was.

14 MR. FARRELL: We thought the first set

15 was going to be resolved by agreement is part of the

16 reason.

17 But as to the first set, the ones that

18 were the problems were number 1 with regard to

19 identifying individuals.

20 SPECIAL MASTER: I have it in front of

21 me. Just give me the numbers.

22 MR. FARRELL: Okay. Number 1, number 4,

23 number 12, and number 13.

24 SPECIAL MASTER: Number 1, 4, okay.

25 Let's deal with number 1. I mean, that's an

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1 incredibly -- do you have those, Mr. Roth?

2 MR. ROTH: I do, your Honor.

3 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Number 1 is

4 about as typical an interrogatory as they come.

5 Do the best you can. I understand

6 you're dealing with lay people who were not involved

7 in it in the first place. You know, just do the

8 best you can.

9 MR. ROTH: So just generally, your

10 Honor, and I'm happy to go through these with you,

11 but let's be clear what we're dealing with.

12 Because of the success of the fraudulent

13 scheme that we allege in the second amended

14 complaint, the people with direct knowledge who were

15 directly involved in decision making are dead in

16 these cases. We've said that in these responses,

17 that I don't have personal information.

18 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

19 MR. ROTH: And so I was listening to

20 your comment about what response I would want if I

21 propounded interrogatories.

22 I've told defense counsel what they

23 already presumably know, that the representative

24 plaintiffs were not directly involved in the decision

25 making regarding their case and provided them with

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1 the information and documents upon which counsel

2 would have relied.

3 They don't have direct information. And

4 so it is upon information and belief.

5 And in response to interrogatory number

6 1, it is her counsel, which is Mr. Bevan in this

7 case, and people identified in the Rule 26

8 disclosure, which would have been other lawyers.

9 But I cannot create an answer and

10 provide answers to information that plaintiffs here,

11 who sometimes are not a surviving spouse but are a

12 child or in the case of the substituted -- the people

13 who we are going to substitute, are even further down

14 the line, do not have that information.

15 And we were clear in our responses that

16 I don't have personal information. I was not

17 involved in the decision making pertaining to my

18 husband's case. That's the response from Miss

19 Chernick.

20 But in an effort to provide defendants

21 with some of the information that we could, that as

22 lawyers have, because they're going to be verified by

23 a client and it's not direct, upon information and

24 belief here are the documents that were relied upon.

25 So I understand that you want us to take

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1 a look at these and that your view was that these are

2 sub -- not responsive. And I want to push back on

3 that a bit, your Honor, and I'm happy to look at

4 these.

5 But I will tell you that these women,

6 because of the passage of time of a family that was

7 told you have no claim against us, or if you do, it's

8 worth nothing because there is no asbestos in our

9 talc, are justifiably saying I don't know, because I

10 didn't make those decisions. I don't know who the

11 witnesses were. I was a child.

12 And they're going to have a chance to

13 depose Mr. Bevan or other counsel.

14 But we were very clear in those

15 responses.

16 SPECIAL MASTER: Here's the problem,

17 okay. And, you know, discovery doesn't exist in a

18 vacuum. Discovery exists for purposes of defining

19 proofs at trial.

20 MR. ROTH: Yes, your Honor.

21 SPECIAL MASTER: What are you going to

22 do at trial, produce a plaintiff that says I don't

23 know?

24 MR. ROTH: Yes.

25 MR. PLACITELLA: Yeah. And they're

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1 going to say I don't know because I was defrauded.

2 MR. ROTH: And we're going to have their

3 family's lawyer testify and describe what happened.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: I was defrauded and no

5 one spoke to me? No one made any reference to me?

6 Nobody made any representations to me? How were you

7 defrauded when nobody made any misrepresentation to

8 you?

9 MR. ROTH: These are the representatives

10 of the decedents' estates that we're talking about

11 here.

12 SPECIAL MASTER: Bingo.

13 MR. ROTH: That's right.

14 SPECIAL MASTER: And they as

15 representatives don't get it both ways. They don't

16 get to say: I know nothing, but I can make the

17 claim.

18 They as representatives are obliged, as

19 far as I am concerned, to do as much as they can to

20 act in the stead of the decedent.

21 And if that means that they have to

22 search a little bit further and they have to make

23 additional inquiries, that's their job. But they

24 don't get to sit there and say: I'm like Sergeant

25 Schultz, I know nothing, and yet still present a

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1 claim.

2 MR. ROTH: And with respect, your Honor,

3 that's not what they said here. And they get to rely

4 on their lawyers, which is us who are doing the

5 investigation, and their lawyers who informed their

6 family.

7 And in that regard, it's no different

8 than a wrongful death case where the representative

9 can't testify about what a physician or a product

10 manufacturer warned their decedent about, but they

11 have the right to go forward despite their not having

12 that same firsthand knowledge. And here --

13 SPECIAL MASTER: But they have the

14 obligation to produce something more than just I

15 don't know, because then they don't make out their

16 case.

17 MR. ROTH: And so they went beyond

18 saying I don't have personal knowledge, your Honor.

19 But in these responses we've said upon

20 information and belief, here's what was done to

21 prosecute the case against Engelhard, and here's what

22 I understand was the basis for that decision.

23 Don't forget, these are interrogatories

24 addressed to individuals who are being -- you know,

25 they're asked to verify those. So they cannot say

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1 I've learned this, nor are they as individuals

2 expected to do the investigation. That's what

3 they've hired lawyers like us for.

4 And so in responding to the

5 interrogatories, where we've gone beyond just

6 claiming a general objection or an attorney/client

7 privilege, forget for a moment that -- and we've had

8 this discussion, I'm not retreading over it, our

9 disagreement about what causation means in this case.

10 Right. Did it cause the underlying case or did the

11 alleged lie cause them to make decisions?

12 We've gone further in the answers to

13 interrogatories to say upon information and belief,

14 here are the litany of documents, here's the

15 correspondence that our counsel relied upon that they

16 would have reviewed with our family.

17 But they cannot say I know this is what

18 happened when they didn't know what happened.

19 That's the tension here where we -- because of what

20 happened when these cases existed, the original

21 plaintiffs do not exist.

22 MR. FARRELL: Your Honor, frankly, I

23 think that the information and belief formulation

24 that Mr. Roth is just describing is even worse than

25 just getting a response that says I don't know,

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1 because then you enter the scenario that we had in

2 the two plaintiffs who were deposed last year, which

3 is that they say I don't know, but I know that the

4 complaint says X, Y, and Z, and I know something

5 really bad happened here supposedly.

6 And there's no way for the defendants to

7 test those facts because you're dealing with somebody

8 who is essentially just spouting hearsay from a

9 complaint instead of factual information within their

10 possession, custody, or control.

11 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, except that by

12 testifying that way, they're bound to it at trial.

13 They can't come up with something else at trial.

14 So when they take the stand, I assume

15 that you or some other equally fine lawyer at

16 Kirkland is going to say, as soon as the witness is

17 tendered, you're going to say: Your Honor, may I

18 voir dire the witness on competence? Competence.

19 And if they're not competent to testify

20 because they either had no perception, had no memory

21 of the perception, or had no ability to communicate

22 the memory of the perception, they're not competent.

23 So I don't know, but I assume because a complaint was

24 filed something awful happened.

25 MR. FARRELL: I completely agree.

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. So that's not a

2 bad answer for you.

3 MR. FARRELL: So then there's a second

4 category of information, however, and I'm glad that

5 Mr. Roth cited Mr. Bevan as an example of somebody

6 who would know.

7 Why is Mr. Bevan's name not in the

8 response?

9 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Well --

10 MR. FARRELL: Why is -- Mr. Bevan is

11 communicating with a lawyer on the other side.

12 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, Mr. Bevan's name

13 is not in the response, because if they put him in

14 there, that's a waiver of the attorney/client

15 privilege.

16 MR. ASSAF: But you've already

17 determined there's a full waiver.

18 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, I didn't

19 determine that.

20 MR. ASSAF: Chief Judge Linares did.

21 SPECIAL MASTER: Chief Judge Linares

22 did. Okay.

23 MR. FARRELL: I think that deals with

24 number 1. The next one --

25 SPECIAL MASTER: Number 4.

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1 MR. FARRELL: -- was number 4. This

2 addressed -- and again, we're speaking about the six

3 class representatives here. Identify all of your

4 claims and dispositions, meaning all of your

5 settlements, and provide information about them.

6 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

7 MR. FARRELL: No response has been -- no

8 factual response has been provided to this, even

9 though your Honor has in fact already ordered

10 documents related to this to be produced.

11 SPECIAL MASTER: Except for the amount.

12 MR. FARRELL: That was for putative

13 class members, not for the class representatives.

14 MR. ASSAF: The class reps will get the

15 most.

16 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, do you?

17 MR. ASSAF: I think so. I think

18 we're --

19 MR. FARRELL: From the October 26th

20 hearing --

21 SPECIAL MASTER: Did I say -- I said

22 back then that you'd get the amounts for the class

23 reps?

24 MR. FARRELL: Your Honor drew a

25 distinction for the six class representatives and

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1 said for them everything goes.

2 You did draw a distinction based on the

3 30 Bevan select people. And then for other

4 putative --

5 SPECIAL MASTER: The Rothenberg numbers.

6 MR. FARRELL: Correct. But for the six

7 class reps we were to get everything with respect to

8 documents.

9 The interrogatory is essentially the

10 corollary of the document request. We haven't gotten

11 the information.

12 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. What's the next

13 one?

14 MR. FARRELL: Number 12. And I should

15 explain. For one of the plaintiffs I think the

16 numbering is slightly different because they had one

17 fewer interrogatory. But I'll explain that number 12

18 is the interrogatory that asks for them to describe

19 the process behind decedent's decision to settle with

20 or dismiss Engelhard, obviously a key issue in the

21 case since that's the whole crux of the allegation.

22 There's been no change -- no substantive change to

23 this response.

24 After Chief Judge Linares' ruling that

25 the privilege had been waived and that the scope of

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1 discovery arguments had been rejected, we presume

2 information had been withheld on privilege and other

3 grounds. Nothing more has come.

4 The other thing I would note is we see

5 again the continued references to the second amended

6 complaint and to information in the possession of

7 former counsel.

8 That information is within the

9 possession, custody, or control of these six

10 individuals and needs to be provided. There needs

11 to be some explanation that says: I, Kimberlee

12 Williams, don't know the answer to this, but Tom

13 Bevan does, and here's the information he has.

14 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. And that was

15 it?

16 MR. FARRELL: And 13 is the last one.

17 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

18 MR. FARRELL: Again, similar to number

19 12, all efforts made by decedent or her counsel in

20 the underlying case to develop and prosecute these

21 claims.

22 Mr. Placitella was just telling us this

23 morning about all of this discovery that's supposedly

24 happened in these cases. My understanding is a bit

25 different. But if that's the case --

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: That's what makes

2 lawsuits.

3 MR. FARRELL: -- it needs to be

4 described in this answer, again, not by saying the

5 second amended complaint says X, Y, and Z, but saying

6 I may not personally know, but Tom Bevan or somebody

7 else does and here's the information they have.

8 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

9 MR. ASSAF: May I have 30 seconds, your

10 Honor?

11 SPECIAL MASTER: Tick-tock.

12 MR. ASSAF: Okay. Number 11 slash 12 on

13 the reasons to settle, that's where the rubber hits

14 the road.

15 And going back to the old school

16 approach of people like Irving Younger, my big

17 beef --

18 SPECIAL MASTER: Are you calling me old

19 school?

20 MR. ASSAF: My concern --

21 SPECIAL MASTER: Notice, he's finessing

22 that answer.

23 MR. ASSAF: My concern is that when you

24 put forward an objection that says I object on

25 attorney/client privilege grounds, and then that

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1 objection is overruled, presumably when they put it

2 forward, they had to have some basis to say I'm

3 withholding information on attorney/client privilege.

4 Because otherwise --

5 SPECIAL MASTER: Not necessarily. It

6 could very well be that their view was if this

7 information exists, it would be within the four

8 corners of what my attorney has and therefore it's

9 privileged.

10 You know, you've done that, I've done

11 that, everybody's done that.

12 MR. ASSAF: But on this issue which was

13 so central to the debate over the last year, that's

14 the thing -- once the Bevan waiver is found by Chief

15 Judge Linares, it's hard to think what -- why isn't

16 that answer amended, because Bevan clearly knows

17 things that he could talk about to the people.

18 Again, that's their decision. Or they

19 could say I'm not doing it.

20 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. That was 32

21 seconds.

22 MR. ROTH: So I'm looking at two

23 pages -- two and a half pages of blue print in

24 response to interrogatory 12.

25 SPECIAL MASTER: Of whose, whose

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1 responses?

2 MR. ROTH: I'm getting there.

3 MR. FARRELL: In the Kimberlee Williams

4 example that we submitted to the Court --

5 SPECIAL MASTER: Let Mr. Roth speak.

6 MR. FARRELL: It would be number 13.

7 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, whatever Mr. Roth

8 is looking I want to look at.

9 MR. ROTH: So I'm looking at Ware, which

10 is number 12.

11 SPECIAL MASTER: Who are you looking at?

12 MR. ROTH: Ware, the supplemental

13 responses.

14 SPECIAL MASTER: Donna Ware. Okay.

15 That I have. And you want me to look at which?

16 MR. ROTH: I'm looking at response

17 number 12. It begins on page 9.

18 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

19 MR. ROTH: Miss Ware said she was not

20 generally involved -- she was not involved in the

21 decision making with respect to Ralph's case. That's

22 her husband. My understanding of what happened

23 comes from the second amended complaint. Okay.

24 But we'll deal with all these issues.

25 SPECIAL MASTER: And the privileged

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1 communications with my attorneys --

2 MR. ROTH: Correct.

3 SPECIAL MASTER: -- which Chief Judge

4 Linares has said have been waived.

5 MR. ROTH: Well, I think that's us.

6 And I don't know that our conversations have been

7 waived, your Honor.

8 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, how do we know

9 that? How do we know it's with you and not somebody

10 else?

11 MR. ROTH: Well, I know the guy who

12 wrote them, your Honor. But that's fair.

13 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

14 MR. ROTH: And then it goes on to list

15 the documents and information that her lawyer would

16 have relied upon.

17 So with respect to the notion that these

18 responses were not amended, it's just not true.

19 With respect to the notion that we've

20 not provided information regarding these issues in

21 the interrogatory answers, that's not so. There's a

22 similar answer for each of these defendants from Miss

23 Williams' interrogatories. For Miss Williams it's

24 number 13.

25 MR. FARRELL: We're talking about two

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1 different interrogatories, your Honor. That's what

2 the disconnect is. The interrogatory that Mr. Roth

3 is currently discussing, and so the record is clear,

4 we're talking about plaintiff Ware, and for plaintiff

5 Ware we're talking about interrogatory number 12.

6 That actually corresponds to interrogatory 13 for

7 Miss Williams. And I apologize for the confusion,

8 but they're the same. It is the interrogatory --

9 SPECIAL MASTER: That's all right.

10 MR. FARRELL: It is the interrogatory

11 for Miss Ware, number 12, which asks them to explain

12 all efforts made to develop and prosecute claims.

13 When I said no substantive change had

14 been made, I was talking about the previous

15 interrogatory regarding the process of settling the

16 claim.

17 Now, the point that Mr. Roth just raised

18 is actually a separate issue and an additional

19 deficiency, which is that interrogatory number 12 for

20 plaintiff Ware asks the plaintiff to describe all

21 efforts made to develop and prosecute claims.

22 And instead of getting an explanation of

23 the steps they took to develop and prosecute claims

24 against Engelhard, we got a two page long list of

25 correspondence received from Engelhard's counsel,

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1 which is not responsive to the interrogatory.

2 MR. ROTH: Well, again, if you look at

3 page 10, while I have no firsthand knowledge, upon

4 information and belief records --

5 SPECIAL MASTER: Page 10 of whose?

6 MR. ROTH: I'm sorry, of the Ware

7 interrogatory.

8 SPECIAL MASTER: Of the Ware -- okay.

9 Because I got a pile of them here.

10 MR. ROTH: Yes, your Honor.

11 SPECIAL MASTER: You got to work with

12 me. All right. And of course -- page 10, I'm

13 looking at it.

14 MR. ROTH: Right. The first full

15 paragraph which is in blue, which means it was

16 amended after the -- describes: While I have no

17 firsthand knowledge, upon information and belief,

18 records and information obtained by my attorneys

19 indicate that when prosecuting Ralph's case, the

20 Bevan law firm was able to document sales of Amtal

21 talc to the Goodyear aerospace facility where Ralph

22 worked, and that the lawyers were also aware from

23 testimony of witnesses in the facility that

24 whitish/gray talc was used by employees in Goodyear's

25 plant. However, upon receiving Engelhard/Cahill's

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1 representations and information that the talc did not

2 contain asbestos, this was not specifically explored

3 in every case. It is also my understanding that

4 Ralph's lawyers retained experts in support -- to

5 support his lawsuit.

6 And that's a response to what was done

7 to prosecute the claim, your Honor.

8 And if with respect to the written

9 communications about why the case was settled that

10 piece should be in interrogatory -- or one of these

11 is in the wrong response, I'm sorry if one of these

12 is responsive to the wrong interrogatory number,

13 shame on me.

14 But the information has been -- you

15 know, the prosecution is acknowledged.

16 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, in respect of

17 Miss Ware, it should be 11 and 12 instead of 12 and

18 13.

19 MR. ROTH: Right.

20 MR. FARRELL: Correct, your Honor.

21 SPECIAL MASTER: Finally figured that

22 out.

23 MR. FARRELL: There's just a bit of

24 apples and oranges going on, your Honor. The

25 paragraph Mr. Roth just talked about suffers from the

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1 problem related to upon information and belief and

2 information in my attorney's knowledge.

3 SPECIAL MASTER: I understand your

4 concern. But we have to be a little practical about

5 this. Okay. And that is I don't know how they can

6 unscramble this omelette at this point.

7 You have decisions that were made by

8 someone who has been dead for some time now. We

9 don't know what they said or didn't say to the person

10 who's now their personal representative. The person

11 who's now their personal representative is filing

12 verified responses saying: I didn't know about this

13 stuff, but I've read A, B, and C, and if you really

14 want answers, you got to go to my decedent's lawyer

15 at the time who might be able to provide this

16 information for you.

17 And since it's already been determined

18 that whatever attorney/client privilege may have

19 existed between the decedent and his lawyer is now

20 waived based upon the allegations made in the

21 complaint, that information should be produced to

22 you.

23 I read these, the answers in respect of

24 interrogatory 12 and to a certain degree 13 as to

25 everybody except Miss Ware, who's 11 and 12, as in

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1 many respects a good faith effort to respond to the

2 interrogatory.

3 Is it as complete as I would like it to

4 be? Not necessarily so. But it is a good faith

5 effort and it gives you something to start with.

6 So I understand what you want. And I

7 understand why you want it. But the problem is I

8 don't know that they can give you what they don't

9 have.

10 MR. FARRELL: I appreciate what your

11 Honor is saying.

12 What we're trying to avoid is the swords

13 and shields issue. And you've heard Mr. Roth already

14 allude to Mr. Bevan and the fact that he will be a

15 witness for the plaintiffs in this case and in fact

16 is on plaintiffs' initial disclosures as a witness in

17 this case.

18 SPECIAL MASTER: Then subpoena him for

19 deposition.

20 MR. FARRELL: But we are also entitled,

21 your Honor, to serve an interrogatory on the

22 plaintiff and ask for information in their

23 possession, custody, or control so that we have the

24 written answer and the information before the

25 deposition that your Honor is alluding to. And

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1 that's the issue.

2 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, let me make

3 painfully clear that if Mr. Bevan has information,

4 that is information that is in the possession,

5 custody, or control of the plaintiffs.

6 MR. ROTH: Well, we have provided not

7 only the files of the six and the files of the 30

8 that your Honor directed us to, we also in the course

9 of doing that found -- and I don't know that he

10 called it any -- you know, there was a discussion

11 about the Rothenberg files and whether there's some

12 kind of central file about Amtal.

13 But Mr. Bevan did find a file that was

14 unrelated to any particular client, and we produced

15 that as well, of just general, you know,

16 correspondence, your Honor.

17 We have in fact made a -- I was mindful

18 of what your Honor said before about what kind of

19 response would I want.

20 I can't put words in my clients' mouths.

21 I know there's information. And we made an

22 investigation to provide a more fulsome response than

23 just I don't know, trying to be mindful of your

24 Honor's directives from other hearings that we've had

25 and our obligation under the rules and at the same

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1 time knowing that we're not dealing with the people

2 who have firsthand information.

3 MR. FARRELL: If this response contains

4 what Mr. Bevan knows, so be it. That's all we

5 wanted, to be clear.

6 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

7 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, take Mr. Bevan's

8 deposition.

9 MR. ASSAF: No.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, no, no. They're

11 entitled to know that it is from Mr. Bevan, which it

12 doesn't say. Right? Did I misread it? It does not

13 say this is the information from Mr. Bevan.

14 MR. ROTH: Well, it does talk about

15 information that my counsel relied upon and what my

16 counsel did. And if you're --

17 SPECIAL MASTER: Which really --

18 MR. ROTH: Well, that's Mr. Bevan.

19 SPECIAL MASTER: Right. But I'm not

20 sure that that person can say, you know, whoever it

21 is, Ware or whatever, can say this is what my counsel

22 relied on.

23 MR. ROTH: Which is why the responses

24 say upon information and belief, your Honor, because

25 the plaintiff to whom the interrogatories are

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1 directed cannot say what Mr. Bevan said or relied

2 upon. And if you are saying that that's what has

3 to -- what the responses are, okay.

4 MR. ASSAF: But there's a difference

5 between information and belief and what I am being

6 told by my -- that's my -- my quarrel is I don't

7 want to show up at a Bevan deposition and just have

8 this vague language about information and belief.

9 I was much more aligned with the

10 question before that said I want to make sure that

11 this is -- they're saying I relied or I heard this

12 from Mr. Bevan who told me X, Y, and Z. That's what

13 I need for the deposition.

14 And I heard Mr. Roth just say in

15 response to your Honor's question that these answers

16 incorporate what Mr. Bevan knows.

17 SPECIAL MASTER: Why don't we do this.

18 Let's make it clear who the source of the information

19 is, because if BASF takes Mr. Bevan's deposition,

20 they ought to be able to tie him back to specific

21 representations made by the plaintiff as to what Mr.

22 Bevan said or didn't say, because if your client

23 says: Well, Mr. Bevan told me A, B, C, and D, and

24 Mr. Bevan under oath says: I said no such thing,

25 you're going to have a problem.

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1 MR. ROTH: Understood, your Honor. The

2 person to whom Mr. Bevan would have given advice in

3 these cases is dead.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: Is the decedent.

5 MR. ROTH: Right. So I got a little

6 problem with getting an answer that says: Here's

7 what Mr. Bevan told me.

8 Now, I'm not being glib, but --

9 SPECIAL MASTER: But you're going to do

10 the best you can.

11 MR. ROTH: I will do the best I can,

12 your Honor. But here's the thing. We've gone back

13 to provide information about how the decision was

14 made. The clients don't know.

15 I get you want something that says Mr.

16 Bevan did bah, bah, bah, bah, bah.

17 Clients verifying such a response are

18 not going to have firsthand knowledge of that. Just

19 so we're clear, that's going to come from a lawyer.

20 SPECIAL MASTER: Then just put that in

21 the verification.

22 MR. ROTH: Okay.

23 SPECIAL MASTER: That's the way I cure

24 that problem, you know, everything in here is to the

25 best of my personal knowledge, and to the extent it

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1 is not within my personal knowledge, it's within

2 information and belief.

3 MR. ROTH: Okay.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: Put that in every --

5 pretty much every verification just in case.

6 MR. ROTH: Which is what we've put in

7 the interrogatory answers, your Honor. But I

8 understand.

9 SPECIAL MASTER: I think the answer's --

10 it's got to be in the verification, because that's

11 what -- that's where your client is putting their

12 stake in the ground in respect of this.

13 MR. ROTH: Well, when they say it in the

14 interrogatory responses, they have also said to

15 whoever is reading it, right, upon information and

16 belief, here's what happened, because I don't -- and

17 they have said in those responses: I'm not the guy

18 with firsthand knowledge.

19 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, but if they say

20 it on information and belief, they have to have to

21 identify the source of that information and belief.

22 MR. ASSAF: Correct.

23 SPECIAL MASTER: And that's where I

24 think the disconnects lies.

25 MR. ROTH: Okay.

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: Now, you can do that in

2 the interrogatory answer or you can do that in your

3 verification.

4 But to the extent that I don't know it,

5 it's based on information and belief from information

6 provided to me by A, B, C, you can do it either way.

7 I don't care. Whatever's more comfortable to you.

8 But it goes to the basic underlying

9 obligation to respond to interrogatories.

10 Now, I will tell you that if I've

11 learned something in 40 years of practicing law is

12 that interrogatories are generally a huge waste of

13 time, because what you get are the lawyer's answers

14 and not the client's answers.

15 I'm a big believer in requests for

16 production of documents and in requests for

17 admissions. Interrogatories don't do it for me.

18 But it is a method of discovery you're

19 entitled to use. But they always give rise to these

20 kinds of discussions.

21 But be that as it may, I think you know

22 where I'm going with this. And I think everybody

23 knows that what I want folks to do in the overarching

24 purpose is let's try to get the information, as much

25 information transmitted from one side to the other as

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1 we possibly can with a minimum amount of fuss so that

2 we can address the important stuff.

3 I'm looking at my watch. It's 2:15.

4 We've been at this since 10:30 this morning. We

5 took a break because you guys needed to go through a

6 list that took more than the five minutes that I had

7 very optimistically allowed.

8 MR. ROTH: Well, part of that was a

9 technical problem, your Honor.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: Now you're blaming Mr.

11 Reiley, who is sitting here very quiet.

12 MR. ROTH: I wasn't going to name him.

13 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, but be that as it

14 may, you know, we need to -- you know, I hate

15 wasting you guys' time.

16 MR. ASSAF: And I generally agree with

17 you on interrogatories, your Honor.

18 Just to be clear though, Mr. Bevan's an

19 attorney, a very skilled and capable one. I don't

20 want to show up for his deposition and learn for the

21 first time what he was telling his clients as to the

22 reasons to settle. And I think I'm entitled to that

23 beforehand.

24 MR. ROTH: Well, I don't know that Mr.

25 Assaf having read the first set of responses is going

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1 to be particularly surprised by what Mr. Bevan says.

2 Our effort was to provide responsive

3 information so that he could take his deposition.

4 What I don't want, your Honor, and it

5 seems to happen every time, is we come back and do

6 make a good faith effort given the fact that these

7 are people who were not the original plaintiffs, and

8 I will be told again I've moved the ball down the

9 line or I've changed the rules or I've done some

10 other thing in response to the next set of discovery.

11 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, you just need to

12 stop being such a bad guy.

13 MR. ROTH: I never should have shaved

14 the beard, your Honor.

15 SPECIAL MASTER: The beard should have

16 stayed. What can I tell you?

17 Actually, on a serious note, I'm going

18 to ask everybody again, attacks on opposing counsel

19 don't work for me. They don't. They actually hurt

20 you when you make them. So let's try to -- I know

21 they're in your drafts because they're in my drafts

22 of everything that I write. But they're not in the

23 final product. Okay. Get it out of your system.

24 Exercise the demon and go on.

25 Every lawyer in this case is a very good

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1 lawyer who's trying the very best they can for their

2 clients. I assume that for everyone. And pointing

3 fingers at somebody's not going to change my view of

4 that. It's just not.

5 So when you have a problem that is a

6 lawyer problem, just tell me and I will address it.

7 We had one, which was the slew of the objections at a

8 deposition. I addressed it. I addressed it

9 hopefully without pointing fingers at anybody and

10 said it's just not going to happen again.

11 And I hope in my heart of hearts that it

12 never happens again.

13 But we need to focus on what this case

14 is about. There's more than enough here to occupy

15 everybody who's in this room. So let's try to stay

16 on that.

17 And on that note, in respect of BASF's

18 motion to compel answers to interrogatories, I'm

19 going to ask plaintiffs to please go back and look at

20 their responses, of the first set of interrogatories

21 to interrogatories 1, 4, 12, and 13, with the

22 exception of Miss Ware's, where it would be 1, 4, 11,

23 and 12, check your responses. Please re-respond to

24 them as best you can.

25 In respect of the responses due from

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1 plaintiff Wengerd, the instructions in respect of not

2 talking to her about substance until she gets

3 re-deposed, I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet, but

4 that you're to treat her as if she were on

5 cross-examination. That does not apply to getting

6 her to sign a verification. So submit them to her.

7 If she's willing to sign it, fine. If she's not

8 willing to sign it as you've prepared it, ask her to

9 mark it up and send it back to you. Just do not

10 discuss the substance with her.

11 You're looking at meet strangely.

12 MR. ROTH: I am happy to do that, your

13 Honor. I'm happy to do that.

14 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Thank you.

15 As to the second set of interrogatories,

16 I'm going to ask for responsive answers as to

17 interrogatory number 1.

18 I am not going to address interrogatory

19 number 4. Frankly, I think that's something we need

20 not spend any time on.

21 On interrogatories 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, and 8,

22 I'm going to ask you to respond to those and that the

23 response in respect of those be contemporaneous with

24 the filing of your class cert motion.

25 And as to the responses that are being

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1 requested, which is again 1, 4, 12, and 13 as to the

2 first set of interrogatories, save for Miss Ware,

3 who's 1, 4, 11, and 12, and interrogatory number 1 of

4 the second set, that those two be provided to counsel

5 for BASF by the 29th of this month.

6 Is there anything else on this

7 application that we need to address?

8 MR. FARRELL: There's only the brief

9 procedural issue that the two plaintiffs who

10 apparently are going to be substituted but have not

11 yet been substituted, it's frankly a function not

12 just of verification but also we're going to have

13 depositions commencing as early as early February,

14 and as we sit here today we don't apparently have two

15 plaintiffs to depose, so...

16 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. When can you

17 file your substitution of parties?

18 MR. ROTH: There is an estate question

19 in Ohio, your Honor, the only thing that we were

20 waiting for.

21 SPECIAL MASTER: Is the estate question

22 being somebody being named as a representative?

23 MR. ROTH: That's right, your Honor,

24 somebody being substituted as a representative.

25 MR. PLACITELLA: And the surrogate

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1 signing off or something.

2 SPECIAL MASTER: Right. Has the

3 surrogate -- do they call them that in Ohio?

4 MR. PLACITELLA: I don't know the exact

5 issue, but it's an estate issue.

6 SPECIAL MASTER: Surrogate's a New

7 Jersey term, so --

8 MR. COHEN: It's the registrar of wills.

9 MR. ROTH: I believe it's the registrar

10 of wills.

11 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

12 MR. ROTH: And we're waiting for the

13 signing off of the new representatives of the estate

14 to substitute. It's not a function -- it's only a

15 function of --

16 SPECIAL MASTER: It's ministerial, isn't

17 it?

18 MR. ROTH: Yes, your Honor. We can't

19 control the registrar of wills.

20 SPECIAL MASTER: Right.

21 MR. ROTH: But we know who it's going to

22 be.

23 SPECIAL MASTER: But since you know who

24 it's going to be, do your substitution as soon as you

25 can.

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1 MR. ROTH: Yes, your honor.

2 SPECIAL MASTER: I wouldn't -- if it's

3 just going to be a ministerial act, I wouldn't wait

4 for that.

5 MR. ROTH: As long as there would be no

6 objection.

7 SPECIAL MASTER: Right. And if there's

8 a problem later on, we'll fix it.

9 MR. ROTH: Okay. Thank you, your Honor.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: I don't think anybody's

11 going to have any trouble with that.

12 Now, just so you know, your filings are

13 limited to what a large binder clip can grab, because

14 that's as far as my ability the understand goes. I

15 much prefer the smaller clips.

16 But before we go into that, can I please

17 remind everybody, please double-space everything. I

18 have enough trouble reading Times New Roman 12 point

19 than having to read it in single-space.

20 I don't know if you noticed, but I have

21 trifocals, and it gets really bad when I actually

22 have to take my glasses off to read it.

23 Single-spaced letters are nice, but

24 they're hard to read. So if you could do

25 double-space, please, that would be nice.

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1 MR. COHEN: Still want the 14 font?

2 SPECIAL MASTER: As long as it's

3 double-spaced --

4 MR. COHEN: 12 is okay?

5 SPECIAL MASTER: -- 14 -- yeah, 14 is

6 nice, but 12 I can live with. Either, you know, 14

7 proportional or 12 non-proportional. So I'm big fan

8 of Courier. It's easier to read for old people like

9 me.

10 Anyway that was the original one.

11 The last thing that I have is something

12 that has not been filed of record that was triggered

13 by Mr. Assaf's original e-mail saying that -- is it

14 today?

15 MR. ASSAF: Today.

16 SPECIAL MASTER: Today. Oh, big day

17 today.

18 That today BASF was going to be filing

19 their opposition to plaintiffs' motion to determine

20 the crime fraud exception and Kozlov exception to

21 defendant's assertions of attorney/client privilege.

22 In that e-mail Mr. Assaf noted that

23 there were two filings that they intended to make.

24 One was an unrestricted filing of an opposition brief

25 that they requested, if memory serves me, a 65 page

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1 limitation on it.

2 Mr. Ryan on behalf of the Cahill Gordon

3 defendants had asked for a 70 page.

4 Both of those applications were granted.

5 Just make sure they're a good 65 and 70 pages.

6 But in his e-mail Mr. Assaf further

7 advised that there was a separate submission he

8 intended to make, about 220 pages' worth, that he

9 intended to submit on an ex parte basis for review in

10 camera.

11 That triggered a letter dated January

12 the 12th, 2018, from Mr. Placitella objecting to the

13 filing of the ex parte and under seal submission,

14 stating first that a secret brief, I like that term,

15 that's really nice, secret brief is unnecessary and

16 that it would only become relevant if there's a

17 determination that plaintiffs have met the prima

18 facie threshold.

19 I would have said when the Court

20 determines that you've met it. But I'm a little more

21 forward than you are.

22 And that there should be a hearing for

23 the parties to be heard on the procedure and that in

24 any event you receive a copy of this brief.

25 Let me specifically go to my notes where

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1 I wrote that your letter provides that the secret

2 brief, I'm going to use that term because I like it,

3 not because it aptly describes it, but because it's

4 colorful, is not relevant, it is unnecessary, and it

5 violates plaintiffs' due process and fair trial

6 rights.

7 Mr. Placitella suggests that we consider

8 the state court's special discovery master's reports

9 and the state crime fraud evidentiary record, that

10 plaintiffs be provided with specific documents in the

11 ex parte submission, and that plaintiffs be allowed

12 to review and oppose BASF's submission or file their

13 own documents in rebuttal.

14 On January the 14th, which I will point

15 out once again was Sunday, January the 14th, during

16 playoff games, BASF filed its letter in opposition

17 that stated as follows. Number 1, that the Court

18 had already rejected the request to review the crime

19 fraud decisions in the Samson case, that the request

20 of the plaintiffs to review the ex parte submission

21 is inappropriate, that the request for BASF's

22 specific documents or a list thereof or be allowed to

23 submit their own document list in opposition has no

24 basis, and talked about the timing of the BASF ex

25 parte brief.

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1 By letter dated January 14, 2018,

2 reminding again it was a Sunday during -- I think

3 this one arrived just as the Vikings were scoring

4 their last touchdown, that Cahill Gordon opposes it,

5 they join in BASF's opposition, and said that they

6 would withhold filing their opposition due today

7 until they get additional guidance.

8 Let me just tell you sort of where I

9 come out on it because I think it would help

10 everybody.

11 Attorney/client privilege issues are

12 tricky to handle, because once the horse is out of

13 the barn, the horse is out of the barn. And so they

14 have to be dealt with, with a little bit of tact and

15 consideration for the issues that are at play.

16 As a result, the judiciary, both federal

17 and state, have developed pretty much a template on

18 how they are to be handled.

19 You have a party that asserts that

20 they're entitled to discovery for a certain reason,

21 an opposition that says no, they're not because it's

22 privileged for the following reasons.

23 And at some point or another somebody's

24 got to look at documents and say they are or they are

25 not privileged, number 1, and number 2, if they are

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1 privileged, does the privilege bar their disclosure.

2 So it's really a two-step process. And

3 the way that it is normally done, or at least in my

4 experience the way that it's normally done is that

5 somebody requests the discovery. The possessor of

6 the privileged document says: No, you can't have

7 them because they're privileged, and then submits at

8 the same time an ex parte submission for the decision

9 maker to decide, number 1, are they privileged in the

10 first instance, and if they are, has that privilege

11 been waived by either operation of law or by fact.

12 And the allegation here is that the

13 privilege has been waived because of the crime fraud

14 exception and/or the Kozlov considerations.

15 In those circumstances, the person

16 seeking the information doesn't get to see the

17 privileged documents because that kind of lets the

18 cat out of the bag.

19 There are other ways of handling it that

20 I've seen and actually done that get a lot more

21 complicated, and that is, for example in this

22 instance, plaintiffs retaining a special conflicts

23 counsel who is then allowed to look at the documents

24 but cannot report on them back to you. I mean,

25 that's one way of doing it. I don't know if that's

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1 what you want to do.

2 MR. PLACITELLA: So let me just try

3 to --

4 MR. ASSAF: I think you are that person.

5 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, I am the decider.

6 I'm not the advocate. Okay. But normally, whoever

7 the decision maker is tries to occupy both.

8 But if you've got a party who says

9 basically I really don't trust you to make the right

10 decision, we'd like to have a dog in that fight,

11 there are ways of organizing that in such a way where

12 it's insulated, whoever is performing the role

13 understands that they have what us old guys used to

14 call a Chinese wall, now is called a screening device

15 or mechanism that is not to be pierced. That's

16 another way of doing things.

17 MR. ASSAF: So my experience doing these

18 several times over -- more than I care to imagine

19 over 25 years, I haven't done the special master --

20 SPECIAL MASTER: You should stop getting

21 into these messes.

22 MR. ASSAF: Is pretty much aligned with

23 how you laid out it, that there's an in camera

24 process -- especially in federal court, there's an in

25 camera process and the judge or magistrate or special

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1 discovery master reviews it. And that I actually

2 think goes back to Chief Judge Linares' view in terms

3 of appointing you --

4 SPECIAL MASTER: Yes.

5 MR. ASSAF: -- and the characteristics

6 he was looking for. And I think it's even in his

7 order.

8 So I hesitate to add yet another person

9 to this as opposed to your Honor, who --

10 SPECIAL MASTER: I'm not recommending

11 it.

12 MR. ASSAF: Okay.

13 SPECIAL MASTER: I'm just saying if the

14 plaintiffs are really going to get crazed about it,

15 there's another way of providing another step of

16 comfort.

17 MR. PLACITELLA: That's not my issue.

18 SPECIAL MASTER: I don't think you need

19 it.

20 MR. PLACITELLA: That's not my issue.

21 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

22 MR. PLACITELLA: As I understand it,

23 just so we're on the same page, and maybe we're all

24 on the same page, we were to provide and submit our

25 crime fraud brief to make out a prima facie case.

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1 And in that brief we had to refer only to stuff that

2 was in the public record. Right?

3 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, because we're in

4 the bizarre set of circumstances --

5 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes.

6 SPECIAL MASTER: -- that in parallel

7 proceedings --

8 MR. PLACITELLA: Right.

9 SPECIAL MASTER: -- you've had access to

10 stuff that you haven't had access to in this case and

11 that I haven't had access to in this case.

12 MR. PLACITELLA: Yeah, I'm not -- and

13 the purpose --

14 SPECIAL MASTER: It's a unique set of

15 circumstances, we all agree.

16 MR. PLACITELLA: Right. And the purpose

17 of that submission and response was for you to

18 determine whether there was a prima facia case made

19 of crime fraud.

20 If there was -- if you find that there

21 is, then a couple of things -- a few things become in

22 play. One, at that point you get to review the

23 documents at issue in camera.

24 And I'm not looking to inject another

25 individual into the process.

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

2 MR. PLACITELLA: Or you also have the

3 issue of, if we make out a prima facia case of a

4 crime fraud, do we get to take depositions of the

5 defendants under a 502(d) order to ask them certain

6 questions to fill it out? That's what I thought was

7 at issue. Now, because --

8 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, the only

9 thing that is at issue --

10 MR. ASSAF: That's never been an issue.

11 SPECIAL MASTER: The only thing that is

12 at issue right now based on your January 12th letter

13 is the submission of the ex parte provision --

14 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes.

15 SPECIAL MASTER: -- that Mr. Assaf

16 referred to, about 220 pages, which I assume is

17 pretty much all documents.

18 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, that's what I

19 want to address.

20 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

21 MR. PLACITELLA: If it's just documents,

22 that's one thing. If there is advocacy attached to

23 that submission, that's wrong. They shouldn't be

24 able to --

25 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Is it all

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1 documents or advocacy?

2 MR. PLACITELLA: Let me just -- if

3 there's advocacy attached to that submission, then we

4 need to participate. And frankly, I thought the

5 easier way to do it would be, if you find a prima

6 facie case, we'll identify for you the documents we

7 think you should look at. We don't think you need to

8 look at a thousand documents. You may only have to

9 look at 75 documents.

10 If they believe that there are another

11 10 documents that you should look at to round out the

12 picture, so be it.

13 But it shouldn't be that they give you a

14 220 page set of documents, many of which we don't

15 care about or are not challenging, and it shouldn't

16 be that they have a chance to advocate in absentia

17 that issue.

18 SPECIAL MASTER: You're saying that

19 because you're in the sort of odd position where

20 you've already gotten this discovery in a different

21 case --

22 MR. PLACITELLA: I know what the

23 documents say.

24 SPECIAL MASTER: Well --

25 MR. ASSAF: Some of them.

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

2 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, if I don't

3 know what they all say, then that's a concern.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: You're not answering my

5 question. My question is do you know what the

6 documents -- have you seen the documents that you

7 want me to rule on?

8 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes.

9 SPECIAL MASTER: You have copies of

10 those?

11 MR. PLACITELLA: Not in the context of

12 this case.

13 SPECIAL MASTER: No, no. But you have

14 copies of those?

15 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes.

16 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. And they are

17 subject to whatever the state court proceedings in

18 the Samson case have put in the way of restrictions?

19 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm not sure what I'm

20 allowed to say here or not say, so I want to be very

21 careful.

22 I didn't want to get to I read the

23 document, this is what it says. All I wanted to do

24 was go to the privilege log and say to you, I only

25 want you to -- I want you to look at the following

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1 documents on the privilege log, like I would do in

2 any other case, pretending as best I can that I don't

3 know anything.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

5 MR. ASSAF: May I respond?

6 SPECIAL MASTER: That is a lot more

7 helpful than honestly I thought.

8 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. My concern is

9 that they give you the documents they want you to

10 look at, they're not even the documents --

11 SPECIAL MASTER: That you're interested

12 in.

13 MR. PLACITELLA: -- that I care about

14 and it's attached to some piece of advocacy that I

15 can't rebut and I can't get the left side of my brain

16 away from my right side, knowing that if I knew what

17 documents they gave you, then I could kind of get a

18 sense of where things were going. It's an issue.

19 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Just so that I

20 understand, I understand that your motion for the

21 application of the crime fraud exception and/or the

22 Kozlov exceptions is going to be limited to a finite

23 number of documents that you already know which ones

24 they are?

25 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm assuming -- yes.

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1 Yes.

2 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. What's wrong

3 with that procedure?

4 MR. ASSAF: So --

5 MR. PLACITELLA: And the ability if you

6 find crime fraud then to take -- you know, I have to

7 take the depositions at some point.

8 SPECIAL MASTER: Right. We'll jump off

9 that bridge when we get to it.

10 MR. ASSAF: Here's what wrong with that

11 procedure, your Honor. And you're going to see this

12 when you look even at our public brief tonight or

13 tomorrow now, that the well-established case law

14 within the Third Circuit and virtually every other

15 federal court I know of says when -- it's beyond

16 dispute when a challenging party moves to challenge

17 attorney/client privilege on crime fraud grounds, and

18 Mr. Placitella's partially right, they have an

19 obligation to identify the 20 to 40 documents on the

20 privilege log that they would like your Honor to do

21 so. Okay. Court after court --

22 SPECIAL MASTER: Just let me stop you

23 for one moment.

24 Did you do that --

25 MR. ASSAF: No.

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1 SPECIAL MASTER -- on your initial

2 submission?

3 MR. PLACITELLA: I didn't because I

4 didn't think that's what you wanted. I thought what

5 you wanted was how do we make a prima facie case of

6 crime fraud? And if you make that determination,

7 then we'll go to the step of me telling you what

8 documents to look at.

9 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

10 MR. ASSAF: But, your Honor, from the

11 very first time at the October 25th hearing that you

12 brought this up --

13 SPECIAL MASTER: 26th.

14 MR. ASSAF: 26th hearing that you

15 brought this up, you talked about the fact that we're

16 in the Third Circuit, the Third Circuit laws control.

17 And the Third Circuit is pretty clear.

18 You as a charging party has an obligation.

19 Now, Mr. Placitella's been at this a

20 long time. He failed -- there's an abject failure of

21 proof on that. So where are we? So --

22 SPECIAL MASTER: Which I assume is going

23 to be amply briefed in your submission.

24 MR. ASSAF: Correct. It will be in our

25 submission.

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1 But I also heard your Honor, including

2 today, say: Yeah, I think there's probably going to

3 be a prima facie case.

4 So I was going to submit everything,

5 because I thought you'd want to kick the tires.

6 SPECIAL MASTER: I hope I didn't say

7 that. I hope I never said I think there's going to

8 be a prima facie case, because I will tell you right

9 now, I try very hard not to prejudge anything.

10 MR. ASSAF: Fair enough, your Honor.

11 SPECIAL MASTER: And so for me what's

12 important is to give all of you the opportunity to

13 have your say. And I think today is more evidence

14 of that.

15 MR. ASSAF: Correct.

16 SPECIAL MASTER: You're going to get the

17 opportunity to have your say. And at some point I'm

18 going to decide, for no other reason than somebody's

19 got to decide something along the way.

20 MR. ASSAF: Agree completely.

21 SPECIAL MASTER: So putting that to the

22 side, we just heard from Mr. Placitella that what he

23 would like to have happen is you file your opposition

24 brief, he files his reply brief, I make a

25 determination on whether a prima facie case has been

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1 made.

2 If I find that a prima facie case --

3 sorry. If I conclude that a prima facie case has

4 been made, then Mr. Placitella is going to give me a

5 finite number of documents that he -- and he's not

6 going to ask for anything else. He's going to give

7 me a finite number of documents, that he's going to

8 say: Since you found a prima facie case, please

9 determine these.

10 You're going to then respond: -- this

11 is what he's proposing. You're going to then

12 respond. And your response doesn't have to be

13 limited to those. You can say there are these other

14 privileged documents that he's not asking for that

15 give a different view of what that document is all

16 about. And if it's privileged, you're going to be

17 able to submit it ex parte.

18 And that's a risk that Mr. Placitella

19 runs, that you're going to be able to rebut with

20 something that he hasn't seen.

21 Although my guess is that by this point

22 in this case, pretty much everyone has seen a lot of

23 everything.

24 I'm going to tell you right up front the

25 proposal that I review, the special master's reports

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1 and those decisions, until somebody tells me that the

2 Supreme Court has lifted the stay, I don't want to

3 see any of that.

4 MR. PLACITELLA: I figured you would say

5 that.

6 SPECIAL MASTER: Until the Court lifts

7 the stay, I don't want to be there.

8 MR. PLACITELLA: I understand.

9 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

10 MR. ASSAF: So your Honor, my biggest

11 point is coming back to I'm going to live with

12 whatever the standard is with the Third Circuit. And

13 the Third Circuit standard says when he moves, he has

14 to identify the documents.

15 Now, he didn't do so, your Honor.

16 Okay. And we're now months down the road from when

17 he was supposed to. Okay. That's not how this

18 works. Okay. If we're going to play by the

19 rules --

20 SPECIAL MASTER: So you're going to put

21 it in your opposition. And he's going to put it in

22 his reply.

23 MR. ASSAF: But not with the document --

24 but not -- he can't -- in other words --

25 SPECIAL MASTER: If you want --

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1 MR. ASSAF: -- the last three months

2 would have been much different for me.

3 SPECIAL MASTER: I'm sure that that is

4 the case.

5 MR. ASSAF: I can't on the eve of my

6 opposition, your Honor, find out that now he's going

7 to get to start over again.

8 SPECIAL MASTER: It's not the eve. It's

9 the day of your opposition.

10 MR. ASSAF: Correct. But, your Honor,

11 that's fundamentally unfair. He knows what the

12 standard is and he didn't do it. And now on Friday

13 night --

14 SPECIAL MASTER: But I can fix that. I

15 mean, I can fix that by giving you the opportunity to

16 file a sur-reply. So I can fix that. That's not

17 that big of a problem.

18 If that is the procedure that Mr.

19 Placitella follows and in his reply he identifies the

20 documents that he wants, then you can -- the whole

21 purpose of a reply is to fix problems that have been

22 brought up in an opposition.

23 And you want to be able to respond to

24 that. I'll give you leave to file a sur-reply,

25 which as those of you who have practiced before the

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1 District of New Jersey know, that's not granted

2 often.

3 But you're not going to be prejudiced.

4 I'm telling you that right now. It's not going to

5 happen.

6 MR. ASSAF: Well, your Honor, I kind of

7 feel like I am, so I'm sorry. But on Friday night I

8 get a piece from Mr. Placitella saying: Well, here's

9 what I want to do.

10 And then on Monday we come in here and

11 we argue it. And for the very first time he now

12 comes to grips with he failed to follow a Third

13 Circuit law. And I'm being told: Well, it's kind

14 of -- don't worry, you'll get another brief on it.

15 Okay.

16 I've strategized this with co-counsel,

17 with my client, and I'm being told now: Well, you'll

18 get another shot at it, when if anything, again, I

19 followed what the Third Circuit told me. And I

20 shouldn't have that changed.

21 Under the rights standard, with all due

22 respect, your Honor, I'm going to win this.

23 And so -- but I just want the rights

24 standard. I don't think Mr. Placitella should get to

25 change the procedure the day I file my brief.

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

2 MR. PLACITELLA: It's my understanding

3 this is how you wanted to do it.

4 MR. ASSAF: Under what case?

5 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, I don't --

6 MR. PLACITELLA: I could have been

7 wrong.

8 SPECIAL MASTER: I don't know where you

9 got that from.

10 But be that as it may, Mr. Ryan, who's

11 been here all day long listening to us go on and on

12 and on, what have you to add?

13 MR. RYAN: On behalf of the Cahill

14 defendants, your Honor, I think that we're maybe

15 over-thinking this issue a little bit.

16 I appreciate that Mr. Placitella was

17 involved in the Samson matter, but we all need to

18 remember that Cahill was not a party in the Samson

19 matter.

20 The reality of life is that Mr. Assaf is

21 correct, that there's a well set of established law

22 in the Third Circuit with regard to how this process

23 is supposed to play out. Mr. Placitella files his

24 motion, the defendants get to file a reply, and your

25 Honor gets to decide the issue before we even get to

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1 in camera. So that's my concern.

2 And as counsel for Cahill, obviously we

3 have other issues because we have to respect the

4 privilege.

5 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, work this out

6 with me, Mr. Ryan, if you would. The objection that

7 is being interposed right now is a purely procedural

8 one. It's one that says this is the process that

9 should have been followed, it was not followed, and

10 therefore the application should be denied.

11 What if the procedural problem is cured?

12 Am I to ignore that and simply decide on the

13 procedural issue? Or should I say the procedural

14 issue can give way to a determination of the

15 substance, particularly in a case like this where the

16 substance is pretty serious.

17 I say that only because that's what's

18 being alleged. I'm not making a determination one

19 way or the other that that's the end result.

20 And the fact that I'm here and doing

21 this, you know, it's not the typical case that gets a

22 special master assigned. And it's not the typical

23 case that gets somebody like me appointed as special

24 master.

25 MR. ASSAF: Correct.

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: Because there are

2 important considerations that are at play here that

3 are important to everybody. And they are

4 considerations that go to the heart of what we do as

5 lawyers.

6 And I've said it before and I will say

7 it again. I have nothing but the utmost respect for

8 our profession. I jokingly say that if you want

9 proof of that is the fact that I married a lawyer and

10 38 years later we'll still married. So it is

11 something that is very near and dear to my heart.

12 The allegations in this case, I think if

13 anybody looks at them objectively, they are

14 troubling, but they're just allegations.

15 So I have to make sure that everybody in

16 this room and everybody, you know, on the telephone

17 gets a fair shake in this case.

18 And under those circumstances, don't you

19 think I absolutely have to?

20 MR. RYAN: Respectfully, I don't, and

21 it's for this reason, your Honor. One, this case has

22 been bubbling around for six or seven years. Mr.

23 Placitella and his firm are fine lawyers.

24 By the pure magnitude of the motion that

25 was filed, you can tell it was well researched, well

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1 thought out. If it's fatally flawed, I don't think

2 you get to do a do-over.

3 I think Mr. Assaf and his clients are

4 here today apparently ready to file their brief

5 today. And I don't think it's fair to say, okay,

6 well, there's a, you know, a little procedural

7 misstep here and we're going to flip out the process

8 that the Third Circuit has used, flip out the process

9 that New Jersey has used, and we're going to add

10 another step. After BASF and Cahill submit their

11 briefs, now plaintiff can backfill and fix a fatal

12 flaw in their submission.

13 This isn't the case I think, candidly,

14 Judge, where you have a minor procedural misstep that

15 your Honor with his equity powers can fix and bring

16 us all back. This one isn't like that.

17 We've all been litigating this

18 particular case way too long. The issue is teed up.

19 And I think your Honor should candidly

20 follow the procedure that the courts have set,

21 because I think when you do, you're going to find

22 there was no prima facie case.

23 SPECIAL MASTER: I don't disagree with

24 you, Mr. Ryan.

25 But when I look at it, there are to

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1 me -- and I think I've mentioned this before, there

2 are two other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you

3 like the play issues in this case. One is this

4 motion. The second one is class cert.

5 I think either of those -- the

6 determination in respect of either of those will have

7 a fundamental effect on this case and how it goes

8 forward.

9 I'm just being very candid with you that

10 I am a little troubled, at least at the first

11 instance, with deciding a motion of such gravity

12 solely on a procedural shortcoming.

13 But if I understood your response

14 yesterday, Mr. Assaf, it was: Listen, the only time

15 you're going to need to reach my ex parte brief is if

16 you find that a prima facie case has been made.

17 So I'm going to ask you -- and I think

18 I've paraphrased exactly what you said.

19 So I'm going to ask you to do me this

20 favor. File your public brief. Hold the other one

21 in abeyance until there's a determination on whether

22 a prima facie case has been made.

23 And then we can go from there, unless

24 you need it as part of your opposition to the prima

25 facie case, which is not what you told me in your

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1 letter.

2 MR. ASSAF: I'm sorry, say that again,

3 your Honor.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, unless you need

5 your 220 page ex parte brief to argue --

6 MR. ASSAF: Oh, yeah. Okay. I hear

7 you.

8 SPECIAL MASTER: Unless you need that,

9 but that's not what you told me. But unless you need

10 that, I would ask you to just hold off on it, let me

11 make a determination on the prima facie case first,

12 and then we'll see where that takes us.

13 MR. ASSAF: So a couple reactions, your

14 Honor. First of all, I want to be clear, I know

15 we've been talking about a procedural issue. I think

16 it's more than procedural, just to be fair, and it's

17 going to be raised in our brief.

18 There are substantive deficiencies, as

19 your Honor I think pointed out in the first hearing.

20 Okay. Law's well settled that they have to make a

21 prima facie in showing activity in furtherance of a

22 crime or a fraud.

23 So it's not just procedural of

24 identifying the documents. It has to be then the

25 substantive arguments in furtherance of. Okay.

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1 And again, it's not -- since the brief

2 is done I'll tell you. Mr. Placitella doesn't want

3 to engage on the in furtherance of. He's trying to

4 say, well, it could be a different standard, it might

5 be a different standard.

6 And there are reasons for that. I think

7 your Honor will figure it out. Doesn't like the

8 standard. Okay. But the Third Circuit does.

9 SPECIAL MASTER: I'll do my best.

10 MR. ASSAF: But the Third Circuit does

11 like the standard.

12 So now, in terms of then the public

13 brief and the prima facie case, again, your Honor, I

14 think I just -- I'd like to have a break of about

15 five minutes to talk to Mr. Farrell about it and get

16 back to you.

17 SPECIAL MASTER: Sure. You may want to

18 talk to Mr. Ryan also.

19 MR. ASSAF: And Mr. Ryan as well.

20 SPECIAL MASTER: He seems to be in your

21 camp.

22 MR. ASSAF: But I'm just trying to --

23 SPECIAL MASTER: Unless, Mr. Ryan, you

24 don't want to talk to these guys, which I wouldn't

25 blame you.

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1 MR. ASSAF: So I'm just to trying to

2 figure out then what the process would be, that we

3 would file our public brief and Mr. Placitella would

4 file a reply as to why he thinks either the standard

5 isn't in furtherance of or why he didn't have to

6 review -- identify the documents as opposed to start

7 over.

8 SPECIAL MASTER: If he files a reply

9 that goes outside the four corners of your

10 opposition, you will get the right to file a

11 sur-reply. How's that?

12 MR. ASSAF: Okay. Let me talk to Mr.

13 Farrell about that, if that's okay.

14 SPECIAL MASTER: Talk to Mr. Farrell.

15 MR. ASSAF: And Mr. Ryan.

16 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Let's take a

17 couple minute break.

18 (Break.)

19 SPECIAL MASTER: Mr. Placitella?

20 MR. PLACITELLA: So maybe there's a

21 different way to approach this that works for

22 everybody.

23 It was truly our understanding that we

24 were to approach it the way we did. And out of the

25 abundance of caution and great concern not to tread

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1 on the sealing orders in Samson, maybe we went

2 overboard and did not even mention a document under

3 seal, only information that was outside -- you know,

4 on the record.

5 SPECIAL MASTER: That's your reply,

6 isn't it?

7 MR. PLACITELLA: Right. Well, but there

8 might be an easier way to shortcut all this.

9 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

10 MR. PLACITELLA: And the simple way I

11 think to handle it is give us three days. We'll give

12 them the list of documents before they make their

13 submission. And then they can make -- you know, give

14 them some extra time to make their submission. And

15 they can make their submission. And then we don't

16 have to, you know, do the extra dance, because we can

17 do it very quickly, if that's what the Court wants.

18 SPECIAL MASTER: Mr. Assaf, you want to

19 think about that for a moment or just reject it out

20 of hand?

21 MR. ASSAF: Well, I think I'm going to

22 reject it out of hand because -- so, you know, I

23 think what you're hearing -- again, now I will put my

24 advocacy hat on.

25 I think Mr. Placitella realizes he's in

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1 a boatload of trouble under Haines and Liggett in the

2 Third Circuit and that by failing to identify -- he's

3 familiar with the California cases that have ruled on

4 this very issue.

5 So we will submit our brief. I think,

6 your Honor, we've heard about what you said.

7 I've now been looking at e-mails. Mr.

8 Placitella's brief is pretty clear that they think it

9 was just a broad, you know, you get to examine all

10 communications.

11 SPECIAL MASTER: Don't tell me what your

12 brief is going to say that hasn't yet been filed.

13 MR. ASSAF: So in terms -- we'll see

14 what Mr. Placitella's reply says. And then we'll

15 take up your sur-reply, your Honor. But to be

16 clear --

17 SPECIAL MASTER: You're going to look at

18 his reply and you're going to let me know whether you

19 want to file --

20 MR. ASSAF: Correct.

21 SPECIAL MASTER: -- more importantly,

22 whether you need to file --

23 MR. ASSAF: Correct.

24 SPECIAL MASTER -- a sur-reply. And I'll

25 deal with it.

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1 I'll tell you right now, if the reply

2 goes outside the four corners of the opposition,

3 you're going to have time to file a sur-reply.

4 MR. ASSAF: And then, your Honor, I

5 didn't answer a question that you posed to me before

6 and I want to answer it because I don't want to --

7 SPECIAL MASTER: That's why we took the

8 break.

9 MR. ASSAF: Correct.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

11 MR. ASSAF: There's another question

12 that came up about whether it was advocacy or just

13 non-advocacy.

14 And again, your Honor, this is going to

15 be in our public brief. But the Third Circuit in

16 Haines v. Liggett says, quote, that there's an

17 absolutely right to have evidence and argument in

18 camera.

19 So I don't want you to think that I'm

20 not going to be an advocate.

21 SPECIAL MASTER: In camera. Not ex

22 parte. In camera. There's a difference.

23 MR. ASSAF: There is a difference, your

24 Honor. But I think, again, the cases are going to be

25 in our public brief and you'll rule on this. But we

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1 have a chance to make this -- it doesn't have -- I'm

2 going to be an advocate, whether it be in camera or

3 under seal or just privileged.

4 SPECIAL MASTER: I expect nothing less

5 from you, Mr. Assaf.

6 MR. ASSAF: Okay.

7 SPECIAL MASTER: You would disappoint me

8 gravely if you weren't.

9 MR. ASSAF: And then --

10 SPECIAL MASTER: There's one thing that

11 you do know, and that is whatever you submit, I will

12 read it from cover to cover, including all the cases

13 that you cite.

14 MR. ASSAF: That I know.

15 SPECIAL MASTER: So you're going to get

16 your fair shot.

17 MR. ASSAF: That I know. And I will

18 also picked up more data today. The Irving Younger

19 piece explains a lot.

20 SPECIAL MASTER: That's another hundred

21 thousand dollars worth of psychiatric treatment.

22 MR. ASSAF: So your Honor, but the

23 one -- the other thing that you mentioned because of

24 now the prima facie determination, I would ask your

25 Honor to consider the following, that to the extent

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1 your Honor after a full briefing determines that

2 there is a prima facie case and then we go to the

3 next step in the crime fraud, I would ask that that

4 ruling be held just to the parties until your final

5 ruling on the crime fraud. And then that would be

6 made as part of the public record.

7 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay.

8 MR. PLACITELLA: I have to think about

9 that, our position on that.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: Why would you object to

11 that?

12 MR. PLACITELLA: I want to think about

13 it.

14 SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. You're going to

15 think about it and then agree that you're not going

16 to object. All right.

17 MR. ASSAF: And then finally, your

18 Honor, I'm sorry about this, but it is --

19 SPECIAL MASTER: I'm trying to help you

20 out.

21 MR. ASSAF: It is three o'clock, and so

22 I would ask for another 24 hours to submit our public

23 brief, because I would like a chance to now review it

24 again. It's gone through some changes over the

25 weekend given the uncertainty of how we're going to

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1 file.

2 SPECIAL MASTER: Is 24 hours enough for

3 you?

4 MR. ASSAF: Yes, it is.

5 SPECIAL MASTER: Mr. Ryan?

6 MR. RYAN: I would ask the same thing,

7 your Honor. And I would just reiterate that to the

8 extent that this process goes any further, it is my

9 view candidly that the in camera process does permit

10 submissions both on behalf of BASF and Cahill which

11 are ex parte, because we have to protect the

12 privilege. And my position will be that Mr.

13 Placitella and his clients are not entitled to those.

14 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, and not to tell

15 tales out of school, but you're right, because what's

16 the alternative?

17 MR. RYAN: Correct.

18 SPECIAL MASTER: You let the cat out of

19 the bag. And clearly it can't be that.

20 So are you going to hold off on the --

21 that was my request of you. You haven't answered my

22 request.

23 MR. ASSAF: Hold off on?

24 SPECIAL MASTER: Hold off on your -- I

25 love the term secret brief.

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1 MR. ASSAF: Yes. And yes, I anticipate

2 that that would be part of any --

3 SPECIAL MASTER: Phase 2.

4 MR. ASSAF: Phase 2, correct, your

5 Honor.

6 SPECIAL MASTER: If we ever got to phase

7 2.

8 MR. ASSAF: Correct.

9 MR. ROTH: Just so we're clear over

10 here, I understand you're going to be an advocate.

11 But are you saying that this secret brief is not just

12 a compilation of documents, but also an advocacy

13 piece in there as well?

14 MR. ASSAF: Well, just to be clear, your

15 Honor, it's an advocacy piece, but it's also factual

16 support from -- by the form of affidavits.

17 SPECIAL MASTER: And that's the 220

18 pages in the aggregate. So you've got a brief with

19 certifications that total 220 pages.

20 MR. ASSAF: We have 220 pages of

21 briefing supported by -- because every time we make a

22 citation --

23 SPECIAL MASTER: Now, you just know that

24 my heart stopped when you said 220 pages of briefing.

25 MR. ASSAF: That's why I was glad when

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1 you were saying that you read everything and you're

2 hard-working. I was like: This is perfect for it.

3 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, we all have

4 limits. The word brief means more than just a

5 filing. It means it ought to be brief.

6 MR. ASSAF: It does, but --

7 SPECIAL MASTER: Do you know why they're

8 called briefs?

9 MR. ASSAF: No.

10 SPECIAL MASTER: Because at common law

11 lawyers were paid by the word. That's why they were

12 called briefs. They were supposed to be brief,

13 which I guess that meaning has been lost. 220 pages

14 is not brief.

15 MR. COHEN: I had a professor that I

16 couldn't call them briefs, I had to call them

17 memorandum.

18 MR. PLACITELLA: At the right time we'll

19 be heard about the length and the court rule.

20 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, we'll address all

21 of this. As I said before, this is one of the two

22 other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the

23 play issues in this case. It's going to define in

24 large measure the contours of this case, where it

25 goes and how it's handled.

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1 So as you can see from the liberality

2 with which I quickly granted your request for longer

3 briefs, I'm not going to limit anybody.

4 I will tell you that as a consumer of

5 briefs, once a brief exceeds a certain page

6 limitation, you start to lose your reader.

7 But that's your call to make. And I

8 will honor whatever way you want to do it. That's

9 perfectly fine with me. But please do take some

10 pity on this poor soul.

11 MR. ASSAF: Thank you, your Honor.

12 SPECIAL MASTER: At some point they may

13 have to respond to that, you know. And then it just

14 gets on and on and on.

15 So I'm not saying no. But please give

16 it some thought.

17 MR. ASSAF: Okay.

18 SPECIAL MASTER: And I'm sure you

19 understand that in addition to whatever -- this is a

20 big issue. Let me start from there. It's a big

21 issue.

22 So you can rest assured that in addition

23 to whatever you submit to me, I'm going to do my own

24 research, because I have to get this right. And

25 I've already pulled the ABA single volume on

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1 attorney/client privilege. It's a three volume set.

2 But the first volume deals with just the

3 attorney/client privilege. I already pulled that to

4 the side. And I intend to read that from cover to

5 cover before I start determining the application.

6 So that's just one of the things, the

7 source materials that I intend to look at.

8 Again, it's a big issue. And it's

9 going to be given the dignity it deserves.

10 MR. ASSAF: Thank you, your Honor.

11 That's all we can ask.

12 MR. RYAN: I just want to make sure I

13 understand, your Honor.

14 So BASF is going to file its public

15 brief, non-privileged information. We're permitted

16 to do the same?

17 SPECIAL MASTER: Tomorrow.

18 MR. RYAN: Tomorrow. And then Chris

19 will submit his --

20 SPECIAL MASTER: His reply.

21 MR. RYAN: Just from a pure housekeeping

22 standpoint, there's no sealing order as far I'm aware

23 in place right now.

24 SPECIAL MASTER: No.

25 MR. RYAN: I presume BASF is going to

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1 file on ECF. I don't know.

2 MR. ASSAF: Yeah.

3 MR. RYAN: But we should probably have a

4 conversation about the logistics of this, because

5 right now there's no sealing order.

6 And my view of the world would have been

7 candidly to file some kind of bookmarks that just

8 indicate that the submissions have been made to your

9 Honor as part of the process rather than filing them

10 on the ECF now.

11 SPECIAL MASTER: If you prefer to do

12 that, that's fine. As you well know, you can just

13 file a bookmark that takes a docket entry and sort of

14 reserves it for you. And then you file whatever

15 you're filing directly.

16 Normally that's the process you follow

17 when something's being filed under seal, because

18 normally what the clerk's office does is the clerk's

19 office makes that entry for you.

20 MR. RYAN: Right.

21 SPECIAL MASTER: But since electronic

22 filing, we've kind of made the clerk's office a

23 little irrelevant in that respect. And it then

24 becomes the obligation of the lawyers to do it.

25 If you think that there is material in

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1 your opposition briefs that you don't want the world

2 at large to see, I'm okay with you docketing a

3 bookmark and just sending the brief to me. I'm okay

4 with that.

5 At some point it's going to have to

6 become part of the public record at some point,

7 because if whoever is aggrieved by whatever decision

8 I make is going to seek review, and the only way for

9 it to be reviewed is for it to become part of the

10 public record. So, you know, that's -- but that's

11 for a different day.

12 If your preference is to file a bookmark

13 and file the brief itself privately, I don't have any

14 problem with that. That's perfectly fine with me.

15 If you read your opposition brief and

16 it's not one that deserves to be, you know, put on

17 double secret probation, then that's fine. That's

18 your call to make. I'm okay either way.

19 However you think is best for you works

20 fine with me, as long as I've got a docket entry,

21 which I don't have for this letter, and the

22 responses. But that's okay. We'll finesse that.

23 But as long as I have a docket entry

24 that I can make reference to later on so that people

25 who review it know that this stuff didn't just fly in

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1 over the transom, and I have the ability to complete

2 the record if necessary for review, I'm fine with

3 whatever works for you guys. You don't need to air

4 your laundry in public. It's not necessary as far as

5 I'm concerned.

6 MR. RYAN: Thank you.

7 SPECIAL MASTER: Have we heard anything

8 at all from the Supreme Court on the pending motion?

9 MR. PLACITELLA: It's pending. They

10 only got all the briefing I think in mid to late

11 December.

12 SPECIAL MASTER: Oh, then it's going to

13 be a while.

14 MR. PLACITELLA: I don't know what their

15 first conference date is.

16 SPECIAL MASTER: Doesn't matter, because

17 that's not what determines it. What determines it is

18 motions -- I think I know a little bit about this.

19 Motions before the Supreme Court are

20 actually reviewed by the Supreme Court Clerk's

21 Office. They don't go to the Justices for a law

22 clerk to create a memo. There are staff lawyers in

23 the clerk's office who review all of the motions.

24 And they actually prepare what is in essence the

25 bench memo in respect of that motion.

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1 And when that process is completed, then

2 the clerk of the court calendars it before the Court

3 during a conference.

4 And it's all a function of how much work

5 the staff lawyers have. More importantly, how much

6 work that particular staff lawyer has as to when it's

7 going to be percolated up.

8 I've seen them take several months to

9 come up, because obviously the moment that an

10 emergent application comes in, everything else has to

11 get put to the side. And you would be surprised how

12 many of those there are.

13 MR. ASSAF: Well, the emergent

14 application was granted, right, the stay?

15 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, it was consented

16 to, wasn't it?

17 MR. ASSAF: Yeah, but a Justice signed

18 it.

19 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, normally an

20 emergent application is through a single Justice,

21 even if it's --

22 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, it was consented

23 to.

24 SPECIAL MASTER: Even if it's consented

25 to, it still has to be entered by a single Justice.

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1 It's actually the only thing you do by

2 yourself when you're on the Supreme Court is emergent

3 applications. Everything else is done as a body.

4 And I would always give people the

5 opportunity to argue. Come to my chambers and we'll

6 talk. And I'd enter an order right after, so --

7 which was generally drafted ahead of time. I can

8 say that now. I couldn't say that then.

9 MR. PLACITELLA: We figured that's what

10 was going to happen, so...

11 SPECIAL MASTER: Well, you know, I was

12 then of the view and still remain of the view that if

13 really good lawyers say they need this quickly, then

14 they need it quickly. And you need to respond to it

15 quickly. Not an issue view shared by everyone. So

16 in any event...

17 MR. ASSAF: I once had -- Bill McGuire,

18 who I was working with, and he --

19 SPECIAL MASTER: Great guy.

20 MR. ASSAF: -- said the same thing to

21 me. We needed an emergent application from the

22 Appellate Division. And he said: I'm going to write

23 a letter and the Judge is going to call me. I said:

24 Really? He said: Yeah. And it's exactly what

25 happened.

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1 SPECIAL MASTER: Huge loss to the

2 profession. What a great, great guy. Excellent

3 lawyer and just a wonderful human being. Big loss.

4 Anything else, counsel?

5 Well, thank you very much. I've kept

6 you way too long today. And that's partly my fault

7 for being too polite to you.

8 MR. ASSAF: We got a lot done.

9 SPECIAL MASTER: Especially to Mr.

10 Placitella, but that's okay.

11 (The matter concluded at 3:20 p.m.)

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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1 CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER

2

3

4 I, ROBERT J. BOCCOLINI, a Certified Court

5 Reporter, do hereby certify that the foregoing is a

6 true and accurate transcript of the stenographic

7 notes taken by me at the time, place and on the date

8 hereinbefore set forth.

9 I do further certify that I am neither a

10 relative nor employee nor attorney nor counsel of any

11 of the parties to this action, and that I am neither

12 a relative nor employee of such attorney or counsel

13 and that I am not financially interested in this

14 action.

15

16

17

18 _________________________________

 ROBERT J. BOCCOLINI, C.C.R.

19 Certificate No. XI01040

 Date: January 16, 2018

20

21

22

23

24

25

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A

a.m 1:12

AA 83:20

ABA 50:23 198:25

abeyance 186:21

ability 25:13 136:21

162:14 175:5

202:1

abject 176:20

able 11:25 12:14

27:16 32:24 72:24

110:15 118:12

119:23 120:4

121:9 124:7

146:20 148:15

152:20 171:24

178:17,19 180:23

absent 14:16,20

15:13 19:20

absentia 172:16

absolutely 21:10

44:16 99:21

120:25 184:19

192:17

abstract 58:25

abundance 189:25

accept 36:5

acceptable 72:15

105:23

accepted 34:25 50:5

access 11:24 12:16

12:20 13:12 170:9

170:10,11

accommodating

90:2 100:1

accomplished 36:3

accounts 18:15

accurate 23:19,20

121:15 206:6

accurately 105:19

121:14

accused 119:20

acknowledged

66:13 69:19

147:15

acknowledging

69:14

across-the-board

50:11

act 133:20 162:3

action 1:2 20:22

32:20 101:14

109:19,20 123:15

206:11,14

active 128:9

activity 187:21

actual 22:15 24:25

39:15 60:25 70:18

112:15 114:3

add 48:18 169:8

182:12 185:9

addition 53:16

108:25 198:19,22

additional 25:13

41:12 54:17

133:23 145:18

166:7

address 28:18 43:10

66:1 72:21 80:6

84:11,16 94:4

156:2 158:6

159:18 160:7

171:19 197:20

addressed 26:21

69:10 101:17

134:24 138:2

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28:17

adequate 114:12

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Administration

89:4

admissibility 120:18

admissible 51:14

56:11

admissions 155:17

admit 51:11

advance 48:5

advanced 36:25

37:17

advances 68:6

advantage 96:23

advice 17:1 124:7

153:2

advised 164:7

advocacy 171:22

172:1,3 174:14

190:24 192:12

196:12,15

advocate 121:13

168:6 172:16

192:20 193:2

196:10

aerospace 146:21

affidavits 196:16

afternoon 5:5

age 42:20 121:2

aggregate 196:18

aggrieved 201:7

ago 34:24 68:2,8

119:9

agree 15:17 16:11

16:13 48:4 63:14

79:6,20 80:1

83:19 97:24

116:25 120:5,6

121:11 136:25

156:16 170:15

177:20 194:15

agreed 6:20 61:17

64:11 75:7,8 77:5

83:2 89:13,14,23

102:20

agreeing 83:16

agreement 7:4 8:1

61:22 62:1,5,8

64:9,15,18 68:2

69:9 80:5 82:17

129:15

agreements 64:6

95:3

ahead 4:21 27:22

41:1 204:7

air 202:3

akin 18:12

al 1:3,6

aligned 152:9

168:22

allegation 30:19

32:9 35:16 43:24

139:21 167:12

allegations 34:23

48:2 103:19

148:20 184:12,14

allege 103:5 130:13

alleged 101:12,13

112:8 113:20,23

135:11 183:18

alleging 36:10,12

alligators 120:11

allow 42:5 72:2,4

allowed 156:7

165:11,22 167:23

173:20

allows 13:12 40:7

allude 149:14

alluding 149:25

alter 10:2

alternate 84:17

alternative 195:16

amended 101:1

105:10 122:10

128:15 130:13

140:5 141:5

142:16 143:23

144:18 146:16

American 30:25

32:21

amorphous 126:17

amount 24:25 44:25

46:20 47:7 55:20

70:20 87:11 88:10

88:21,22 92:5,14

95:1 101:19

109:12 138:11

156:1

amounts 67:9 95:11

95:15,19 138:22

ample 103:17

amply 176:23

amputation 59:10

Amtal 123:16

146:20 150:12

analogy 51:9

analysis 17:25 18:3

77:11

and/or 5:24 6:1

84:21 98:5 167:14

174:21

anecdotal 34:15

announced 93:1,23

answer 32:4 36:7

47:14 99:2 107:12

109:23 110:20,24

110:24 111:4

115:21 124:7,14

124:19 127:16

131:9 137:2

140:12 141:4,22

142:16 144:22

149:24 153:6

155:2 192:5,6

answer's 154:9

answered 128:2

195:21

answering 173:4

answers 99:8 100:15

100:18 104:19

105:9,11 122:10

126:2,14 127:8,25

128:2,14,15

131:10 135:12

144:21 148:14,23

152:15 154:7

155:13,14 158:18

159:16

anticipate 196:1

anticipation 53:23

anybody 34:14 43:3

43:4 47:11 66:19

72:15,16 78:1

86:19 95:14 96:21

96:22 97:7 116:4

125:7 158:9

184:13 198:3

anybody's 73:13

162:10

anymore 116:21

Anyway 163:10

apologize 145:7

apparently 91:1

114:12 160:10,14

185:4

appeal 13:22 93:12

appear 83:5

appearances 2:1 4:3

appellate 43:2

204:22

apples 23:12,13

147:24

application 92:25

99:4 116:14 160:7

174:21 183:10

199:5 203:10,14

203:20 204:21

applications 164:4

204:3

applies 55:10,22

57:24 60:14 66:16

126:11

apply 65:17 69:20

159:5

appointed 115:18

183:23

appointing 169:3

appreciate 10:21

42:24 48:6 64:22

86:5 99:23 100:6

118:24 149:10

182:16

approach 141:16

189:21,24

appropriate 8:22

42:5

approval 87:11

approved 51:5

approximately 8:9

119:7

aptly 165:3

arabesque 80:24

117:23,25

areas 25:11 62:19

63:3,5 64:14,14

64:14,20 80:6

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argue 28:3,8 40:10

181:11 187:5

204:5

argued 37:16 38:23

60:4 65:7 73:4

arguing 36:2,4

116:9

argument 1:11 29:8

39:2,11 46:10

56:6 61:19 67:22

68:5,7,12 69:20

112:21 192:17

arguments 8:21

45:19 60:16 96:5

140:1 187:25

arises 40:6

arm 90:2

Army 90:22

arranged 53:23

58:4

arrived 166:3

Arthur 3:11 4:24

articulate 121:17

articulated 121:19

asbestos 6:15 11:10

34:19 47:7 50:5

85:6 91:12 92:3,8

96:25 97:8 98:6

98:10,12,16,17,22

132:8 147:2

asbestosis 86:20

aside 40:21 74:5

asked 11:20 43:7

53:7 69:7 82:6

124:13 134:25

164:3

asking 6:10 16:7

58:24 61:13 125:7

125:8 178:14

asks 12:15 139:18

145:11,20

aspersion 35:22

Assaf 2:9 4:13,13

23:6 35:18 47:20

48:8 49:6 50:17

50:25 59:16 62:13

62:22 63:16,18,21

74:5,7,10,21

75:15,18,20 76:4

76:12,19,24 77:2

77:6,24 78:8,19

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81:15 82:7 84:22

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129:10 137:16,20

138:14,17 141:9

141:12,20,23

142:12 151:9

152:4 154:22

156:16,25 163:15

163:22 164:6

168:4,17,22 169:5

169:12 171:10,15

172:25 174:5

175:4,10,25

176:10,14,24

177:10,15,20

179:10,23 180:1,5

180:10 181:6

182:4,20 183:25

185:3 186:14

187:2,6,13 188:10

188:19,22 189:1

189:12,15 190:18

190:21 191:13,20

191:23 192:4,9,11

192:23 193:5,6,9

193:14,17,22

194:17,21 195:4

195:23 196:1,4,8

196:14,20,25

197:6,9 198:11,17

199:10 200:2

203:13,17 204:17

204:20 205:8

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163:13

assert 7:13 91:5

asserted 20:23

92:19

assertions 163:21

asserts 6:18 166:19

assigned 183:22

assist 31:2

Associates 2:17

Association 31:1

32:22

assume 11:17 34:5

66:1 83:14 87:14

87:19,25 88:4,24

89:1 105:24 106:6

109:4 136:14,23

158:2 171:16

176:22

assumed 18:10,23

assumes 7:16

assuming 89:18

174:25

assured 198:22

attached 171:22

172:3 174:14

attack 74:5,9 116:4

attacking 116:2

attacks 157:18

attorney 6:13 8:7

10:5 32:5 58:2

65:4,10,18 66:6

87:21,23 88:1

91:10,16 142:8

156:19 206:10,12

attorney's 51:11

57:19 148:2

attorney/client 6:2

11:14 54:16 56:22

135:6 137:14

141:25 142:3

148:18 163:21

166:11 175:17

199:1,3

attorneys 2:6,10,13

2:17,22 3:4,8,11

10:20 11:8 53:23

144:1 146:18

attorneys' 65:24

91:22

audited 50:5

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authenticity 116:2,5

117:7

authority 17:19

53:6,7 54:8

avail 15:4

available 30:3 45:1

86:18,22

availed 14:23

Avenue 2:12,15

avoid 74:8 149:12

awake 108:10

aware 146:22

199:22

awful 116:10 136:24

B

B 3:7 98:14 109:13

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44:10,20 45:13

59:1 60:24 74:1

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101:5 105:20

114:14 121:24

125:14 128:17,21

132:2 138:22

141:15 152:20

153:12 157:5

158:19 159:9

167:24 169:2

179:11 185:16

188:16

backfill 185:11

background 112:1

backwards 13:18

bad 43:12 65:1

136:5 137:2

157:12 162:21

bag 167:18 195:19

bah 153:16,16,16,16

153:16

ball 111:1 157:8

Ballard 1:11,14

ballet 80:23 117:22

ballpark 41:21 72:9

bankruptcy 66:11

66:14,20,25 67:8

67:20

bar 30:25 32:21

167:1

barn 166:13,13

barred 7:7 8:14

base 19:14 60:21

90:12,14,14,14,16

90:18

based 7:12 34:10

73:2 98:21 112:21

123:15,23 127:4

139:2 148:20

155:5 171:12

bases 57:4

BASF 1:6 2:10,22

2:25 3:4 4:12,13

5:2,9,14,18,24 6:4

6:7,10,18,21 7:13

8:17,19 9:15,23

12:15 18:12 19:15

19:18,22,25 20:1

20:4 29:9 33:12

33:17 34:6,25

39:16 43:16 44:9

45:21,24 51:18

53:13 67:23 68:2

69:2 93:8 98:8,18

99:8 100:14

101:11,18,25

102:10 104:4,18

109:11 112:8,11

115:5,8 119:6

120:1 123:15,21

124:9 152:19

160:5 163:18

165:16,24 185:10

195:10 199:14,25

BASF's 18:15,19

98:5,9,14 104:13

112:4 158:17

165:12,21 166:5

basic 90:8,9,10,11

90:11 96:2 104:8

104:10 155:8

basically 8:17,21

101:25 103:2

116:1 168:9

basis 15:1 17:17

31:12 57:5 64:24

65:16 66:5,5 67:7

69:18 70:18

101:20 107:17

109:15 112:20

114:8 134:22

142:2 164:9

165:24

bear 16:1

beard 27:19 38:8

118:4 157:14,15

beef 141:17

began 89:1

beginning 42:21

begins 143:17

behalf 4:6,7,9,11,17

4:18 53:12 57:10

108:3 164:2

182:13 195:10

behaved 32:17

behavior 30:24 40:6

beings 56:8

belief 15:20,20

131:4,24 134:20

135:13,23 146:4

146:17 148:1

151:24 152:5,8

154:2,16,20,21

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22:24 25:4 44:10

44:12 45:11 47:15

50:18 52:5 54:4

57:23 58:14 68:13

82:21 87:8,22

91:18,19 96:13

108:22 115:2

120:9 161:9

172:10

believer 155:15

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bench 202:25

benefit 119:4

best 59:17 74:3

102:4 111:14

115:24 118:24

123:19 124:11

125:8,20 126:15

127:16 130:5,8

153:10,11,25

158:1,24 174:2

188:9 201:19

better 59:3,10,16

60:1

Bevan 2:17,17 4:19

6:6,8,13,16,19 7:5

7:11,19,19,20 8:1

8:12,20 9:4,22

11:8,9 13:12

15:18,20,25 16:20

17:13 18:4 19:10

19:15,21 20:4,8

20:11,13,14,20

22:2 28:12 31:7

31:18,24 32:1,3

32:10 35:14,16,22

46:7 49:13,22

50:8,9 53:7,19

54:9 61:6,16,23

61:24 64:23 67:16

70:1 74:14,14,22

74:23,25 82:22

91:10,13 92:1,11

96:15 97:1 99:11

131:6 132:13

137:5,10 139:3

140:13 141:6

142:14,16 146:20

149:14 150:3,13

151:4,11,13,18

152:1,7,12,16,22

152:23,24 153:2,7

153:16 157:1

Bevan's 14:18 19:3

50:15 65:10 137:7

137:12 151:7

152:19 156:18

beyond 45:17

103:16 134:17

135:5 175:15

big 141:16 155:15

163:7,16 180:17

198:20,20 199:8

205:3

biggest 179:10

Bill 204:17

binder 162:13

Bingo 133:12

bit 4:21 5:22 6:3 9:1

14:6 16:3 35:3

42:22 47:5 56:6

79:14 117:25

132:3 133:22

140:24 147:23

166:14 182:15

202:18

bizarre 170:4

blame 43:3,4,5

188:25

blaming 156:10

blue 81:6 112:15

119:15 142:23

146:15

boatload 191:1

Boccolini 1:12 27:8

206:4,18

body 204:3

bona 126:1

bookmark 200:13

201:3,12

bookmarks 200:7

bottom 32:8

Boulevard 3:10

bound 56:2 136:12

Boyle 3:9,11 4:23,23

4:25 5:1

brain 174:15

brakes 77:4

Branch 90:5

break 79:2 81:2,22

156:5 188:14

189:17,18 192:8

Brendan 2:16 4:18

Bress 3:4 5:2,2

bridge 93:25 175:9

brief 15:6 21:20

45:4 59:22 64:7,8

64:13 70:2 112:2

160:8 163:24

164:14,15,24

165:2,25 169:25

170:1 175:12

177:24,24 181:14

181:25 185:4

186:15,20 187:5

187:17 188:1,13

189:3 191:5,8,12

192:15,25 194:23

195:25 196:11,18

197:4,5,12,14

198:5 199:15

201:3,13,15

briefed 73:4 176:23

briefing 53:11 93:23

194:1 196:21,24

202:10

briefly 106:20 112:4

briefs 185:11 197:8

197:12,16 198:3,5

201:1

bring 185:15

brings 60:24

broad 97:15,17

191:9

broadly 12:13

brook 73:2

brought 41:1

119:16 176:12,15

180:22

bubbling 184:22

bunch 88:13

burden 9:15,16 22:4

64:25 69:17,19

73:18 74:1 77:17

burdens 7:12

bus 108:6

business 8:4 30:15

37:13,23 38:10

112:10,25

C

C 109:14 148:13

152:23 155:6

C-1 1:23

C.C.R 206:18

C4 15:1

Cahill 2:13 3:8 4:14

4:17 5:24 13:8

19:2,25 22:6,12

22:25 23:1,6,20

23:22 24:11 25:21

29:4 53:5,9,12

54:10,20 61:2

80:13,14 164:2

166:4 182:13,18

183:2 185:10

195:10

Cahill's 18:20

calculating 101:19

101:20 109:13,15

calculation 128:23

calendars 203:2

caliber 125:13

California 93:2

191:3

call 80:23 161:3

168:14 197:16,16

198:7 201:18

204:23

called 6:5,8 30:24

58:5 77:1 150:10

168:14 197:8,12

calling 30:20 141:18

calls 107:3 115:10

camera 164:10

168:23,25 170:23

183:1 192:18,21

192:22 193:2

195:9

camp 188:21

cancer 70:12

candid 186:9

candidly 125:10

185:13,19 195:9

200:7

capable 156:19

capital 59:11 109:10

carcass 48:17 79:5

care 155:7 168:18

172:15 174:13

careful 173:21

carrying 78:1

case 6:19 10:6,8

11:6 13:11 14:19

14:24,25 15:19

16:20 17:22 18:1

18:5 19:6 20:5,7

20:15,22 21:17,18

21:21 23:24 24:2

25:25 29:10,11

30:14 31:22 32:22

33:11,21,24 34:22

34:22 35:9,13

37:8,11,19,21

38:5,20,23,24

39:4,14,15 42:3

42:16,19 43:14,15

43:25 44:8,21

45:6,14 48:2,24

49:22 50:4,8,8,9

50:21 51:10,14

52:18,19 53:21

54:14 57:21 58:2

65:23 66:17 68:10

71:19 73:1,12,14

73:15,16 74:15,22

74:25 75:2 76:7

76:20 77:1,21,25

89:24 93:20,22

94:8 107:6,16

110:21 112:8

115:10,14,16

117:3 125:1

130:25 131:7,12

131:18 134:8,16

134:21 135:9,10

139:21 140:20,25

143:21 146:19

147:3,9 149:15,17

154:5 157:25

158:13 165:19

169:25 170:10,11

170:18 171:3

172:6,21 173:12

173:18 174:2

175:13 176:5

177:3,8,25 178:2

178:3,8,22 180:4

182:4 183:15,21

183:23 184:12,17

184:21 185:13,18

185:22 186:3,7,16

186:22,25 187:11

188:13 194:2

197:23,24

cases 11:10 21:20

26:15 30:20,23

31:14,24,25 32:1

32:3,9,17 33:8,15

33:16,18,21 34:19

35:8 39:11,20,21

40:13,19 41:6

44:5 49:7,8,12

50:15 51:5,6 58:3

69:3,6 70:21

80:16 93:18

101:22 114:10

117:17 121:3

130:16 135:20

140:24 153:3

191:3 192:24

193:12

cashed 81:13

Cassandra 3:7 4:16

cat 167:18 195:18

Catalysts 1:6 2:10

2:22,25 3:4

categories 9:24

11:18 25:4 54:7

58:12 61:19,22

62:1 66:8 79:24

79:25 81:12,24

82:4 91:8 106:19

categorized 20:17

category 10:9,13

Case 2:11-cv-01754-BRM-AME Document 621-11 Filed 07/23/20 Page 210 of 233 PageID:

48245
USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 210

11:19 54:3 57:17

67:12 92:1 102:5

115:4 137:4

causation 33:24

71:20 135:9

cause 20:22 84:16

135:10,11

caution 189:25

Center 2:21

central 80:24

142:13 150:12

cert 41:11 70:24

73:19 77:10 106:3

122:1,8 159:24

186:4

certain 62:1 82:14

111:5 148:24

166:20 171:5

198:5

certainly 14:16

30:25 31:20 32:21

35:19,20 45:2

50:18 65:10,13

121:9

Certificate 206:1,19

certification 7:23

14:21 15:6 25:14

41:19 73:17 76:14

76:18 101:15

102:6,9,12 103:15

103:19,25 110:22

125:1

certifications

196:19

certified 1:12,22

15:1,1 76:7

107:16 124:21

206:4

certify 206:5,9

chain 40:15

challenge 33:19,20

33:23 43:13 44:11

122:25 175:16

challenged 33:16

34:2

challenging 172:15

175:16

chambers 204:5

chance 126:24

132:12 172:16

193:1 194:23

change 64:7 105:4

139:22,22 145:13

158:3 181:25

changed 10:2 82:2

105:9 116:6 157:9

181:20

changes 128:8

194:24

changing 39:24

128:9

characteristics

169:5

characterization

25:17 121:15

charging 176:18

charter 42:16

chase 93:11

Chatham 3:10

cheap 33:18

check 81:12,13,13

88:10,10,20,22

158:23

checked 18:2

Chernick 131:19

Cherry 1:16

chest 85:5

Chief 55:18 60:7

78:2 100:17

120:19 137:20,21

139:24 142:14

144:3 169:2

child 131:12 132:11

Chinese 168:14

CHK 88:19,21

chose 45:5

chosen 57:18

Chris 29:18 199:18

Christopher 2:4 4:5

chunk 69:20

churning 95:22

cigarettes 88:25

circuit 33:22 40:11

44:22 45:8,18

57:22 73:20 77:5

175:14 176:16,16

176:17 179:12,13

181:13,19 182:22

185:8 188:8,10

191:2 192:15

circumstance 43:12

circumstances

125:20 167:15

170:4,15 184:18

citation 196:22

cite 193:13

cited 66:15,16 137:5

city 90:10

CIVIL 1:2

claim 8:23 24:14

31:3 85:10,12,13

88:1 98:8,14,18

98:20 107:18

132:7 133:17

134:1 145:16

147:7

claimant 84:4

claimed 21:11

109:18 119:13

claiming 86:19

135:6

claims 10:7 51:12

53:14 66:10 70:14

71:7,21 75:25

85:1 86:11 97:12

104:2 105:8 138:4

140:21 145:12,21

145:23

clarity 95:18

Clark 52:9

class 7:17,22 8:6

12:12,25 13:1

14:9,10,16,17,19

14:20,22 15:2,9

15:10,11,13,13,15

19:3 25:14 39:5

41:11,17,19,20,21

44:3 52:8 55:16

61:5 70:11,13,24

70:25 71:7,15

72:3 73:17,19

74:13 77:9,10

82:13 84:12 89:23

96:12,25 97:2

98:19,23 99:1

101:14,15 102:5,8

102:9,12 103:18

103:20,24 106:3

106:11,24 107:2

107:16,21 108:13

108:21 110:13,16

110:21 122:1,8

124:21 125:1

138:3,13,13,14,22

138:25 139:7

159:24 186:4

clear 19:5 23:16,18

42:16 54:19 70:7

89:14 94:17 96:12

96:18 117:13

120:17 125:4

130:11 131:15

132:14 145:3

150:3 151:5

152:18 153:19

156:18 176:17

187:14 191:8,16

196:9,14

clearly 45:17 142:16

195:19

clerk 202:22 203:2

clerk's 200:18,18,22

202:20,23

client 17:24 20:9

48:18 49:13,16

57:8 65:6 89:11

96:25 131:23

150:14 152:22

154:11 181:17

client's 57:21 79:5

155:14

clients 10:22,23,25

12:11,12,21 14:18

20:14 22:23 54:12

61:24,24 65:8,11

96:16,20 117:17

119:19 153:14,17

156:21 158:2

185:3 195:13

clients' 15:22 20:11

36:2 150:20

clip 162:13

clips 162:15

close 24:8

co-counsel 181:16

co-defendant 21:22

co-defendants 68:25

codified 115:24

cogency 48:6

COHEN 2:2 43:20

118:16 161:8

163:1,4 197:15

collected 29:9

color 128:4

colorful 165:4

columns 51:23

come 29:21 34:14

38:17 39:16 45:15

65:10 74:17 76:20

77:19 81:3 94:6

101:5 106:12

116:15 121:24

126:6 130:4

136:13 140:3

153:19 157:5

166:9 181:10

203:9 204:5

comes 61:12 65:8

143:23 181:12

203:10

comfort 169:16

comfortable 42:2

155:7

coming 40:8 99:23

179:11

commencement

98:6

commencing 1:12

160:13

comment 95:7

130:20

comments 59:15

104:18 127:20

Commerce 2:3

common 197:10

communicate

136:21

communicating

137:11

communications

67:1 144:1 147:9

191:10

comp 85:13

companies 69:3

comparison 13:7

compel 6:5,8 99:8

158:18

compelled 13:21

17:2,18,23 30:15

compensation 6:16

67:16 70:20 91:12

92:12 98:8,14,18

competence 136:18

136:18

competent 136:19

136:22

compilation 196:12

compiled 53:23

complaint 12:13

24:6 36:7 49:17

73:23 81:12 97:15

109:18 130:14

136:4,9,23 140:6

141:5 143:23

148:21

complaints 102:2

complete 20:8 149:3

202:1

completed 49:14

203:1

completely 136:25

177:20

complicated 167:21

comply 22:3

complying 73:3

Case 2:11-cv-01754-BRM-AME Document 621-11 Filed 07/23/20 Page 211 of 233 PageID:

48246
USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 211

comprehensive 25:5

comprised 18:2

compromise 19:18

19:21 94:6,16,23

computer 75:13

concealment 43:15

concern 40:4 71:24

141:20,23 148:4

173:3 174:8 183:1

189:25

concerned 35:25

65:21 76:6 133:19

202:5

concerning 5:23,25

14:16 15:18 46:8

91:16 99:6 104:13

105:11 112:10

concerns 9:20 58:20

58:21 66:2 91:21

91:24

conclude 178:3

concluded 205:11

conclusion 36:6

128:7

condition 86:20

conduct 72:13

confer 9:13 13:7

51:21 95:10,12

96:9

conference 82:8

202:15 203:3

conferred 66:12

confers 82:10

confident 42:8

72:11

confidential 15:8

37:25 38:1 46:2,4

46:6,9,24,25 47:3

47:8,9,20,22

65:12,24 66:14,19

66:21 67:1 91:19

92:5

confidentiality 8:4

46:15 60:9 65:19

65:25 67:5,10

68:1 69:8,11,16

91:23 92:10 95:3

confirm 81:23

conflicts 167:22

confusion 145:7

connected 92:19

CONNELL 2:11

Connolly 3:6 4:17

consent 102:21

consented 203:15

203:22,24

consents 100:21

consider 165:7

193:25

consideration

166:15

considerations

167:14 184:2,4

consistent 121:19

consonant 121:19

consulting 57:8

consumer 198:4

contact 84:17

contain 6:11 92:17

98:10,16 147:2

contained 13:6

24:25 57:25 98:11

98:17

containing 8:8

10:21 58:6

contains 11:14,24

12:10 13:15 23:22

53:20,25 54:13

151:3

contemporaneous

102:11 159:23

contend 109:11

context 31:24 32:1,3

38:21 173:11

continue 63:20

continued 2:1 3:1

140:5

continues 63:25

contours 72:9

197:24

control 124:2

136:10 140:9

149:23 150:5

161:19 176:16

controversy 5:23

conversation 56:21

123:1,2 200:4

conversations 144:6

copies 112:14 113:1

113:6,19 114:11

116:17,21 117:3,8

119:10,10,13,16

173:9,14

copy 12:15 13:5,8

13:11 52:2 112:16

114:6 116:2,2,5

120:22,23,25

164:24

Coren 2:5 4:7,7

108:4,6

corners 142:8 189:9

192:2

Corning 46:13

corollary 139:10

corporate 1:15

25:24 29:5 115:8

correct 9:5,9 11:19

11:21 12:6,7

21:10 22:22 24:15

24:16 28:13 35:18

43:18,19,20 49:2

49:6 52:10 56:16

57:3,16 58:10

68:3 69:4 75:15

75:18 76:24 77:2

77:6 78:19 80:10

81:24 106:4 109:5

113:23 128:24

139:6 144:2

147:20 154:22

176:24 177:15

180:10 182:21

183:25 191:20,23

192:9 195:17

196:4,8

correctly 52:12

64:24 106:18

correspondence

113:14 135:15

145:25 150:16

corresponds 145:6

counsel 2:24 4:3

5:14,18 14:9 20:3

28:25 41:18 44:4

56:1 70:23 71:3

72:2,19 89:23

130:22 131:1,6

132:13 135:15

140:7,19 145:25

151:15,16,21

157:18 160:4

167:23 183:2

205:4 206:10,12

counsel's 124:6

country 93:16

126:23

County 87:6

couple 82:1 170:21

187:13 189:17

Courier 163:8

course 89:19 99:16

99:17 146:12

150:8

court 1:1,12,22 10:1

15:24 18:5 22:5

27:10 40:11 42:25

44:11,19,20 45:13

45:14,20 54:1,5

55:8,12 60:10,13

60:18 61:6 66:21

70:3,17 92:20

111:1 143:4

164:19 165:17

168:24 173:17

175:15,21,21

179:2,6 190:17

197:19 202:8,19

202:20 203:2,2

204:2 206:4

court's 10:14 15:17

107:12 165:8

courtroom 121:4,7

courts 30:25 32:21

50:20 126:22,22

185:20

cover 193:12,12

199:4,5

covered 10:1

cranky 78:3,5

114:17,20,23,23

114:24

crazed 116:24 127:6

169:14

crazy 47:11

create 131:9 202:22

created 29:14 112:7

112:7

creation 56:13

credibility 51:15

credible 34:12

crime 6:1 163:20

165:9,18 167:13

169:25 170:19

171:4 174:21

175:6,17 176:6

187:22 194:3,5

critical 26:12

cross-examination

159:5

crucial 54:14 57:20

crux 106:15 139:21

CTY 87:4

cure 153:23

cured 183:11

cures 8:23

curing 9:19

current 12:11,13

34:6 103:7

currently 97:3

145:3

custody 136:10

140:9 149:23

150:5

custom 49:11

cut 20:24

CUY 87:4

Cuyahoga 87:6

D

d 55:5 109:16

152:23

D.C 2:8 3:3

damage 15:2 109:14

109:15,16 111:7

damages 71:19

98:20 101:12,17

101:19,19,20,21

101:21 103:11

104:8 106:22,25

107:4,8,13,18

109:9,12,17 111:7

128:23

Dan 5:2

dance 80:24 190:16

danger 37:8

DANIEL 3:4

data 8:9 29:8 95:22

193:18

database 6:6,9,11

6:21 7:5 8:7,8,19

8:20 9:12 10:18

10:21 11:12,17,22

11:24 12:9,16

13:6,8,13,15

16:23,25 17:10,24

18:1,9,12,19,19

19:2 20:4,16,18

22:6,12,25 23:2,7

23:20,22 24:12,20

25:21 27:2,5,6,6,7

28:4,12,25 29:14

47:11 51:22 53:5

53:7,9,17,19 54:9

54:10,11,12,20

56:25 57:2,19,24

58:13 59:2 61:16

61:23 62:20 67:18

70:2 74:15 75:4,9

75:10 79:21 80:14

80:14 82:12,22

91:21 94:18 96:11

96:16

databases 6:20 11:4

11:25 29:4,12

56:7 58:5 61:2,12

Case 2:11-cv-01754-BRM-AME Document 621-11 Filed 07/23/20 Page 212 of 233 PageID:

48247
USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 212

78:21

date 1:12 20:21

81:12 85:12,14,14

87:5,6 90:6,8

106:7 202:15

206:7,19

date's 106:13

dated 103:1 164:11

166:1

day 4:2 16:3 26:21

42:11 59:20 60:2

76:11 88:24,25

118:22 121:2

163:16 180:9

181:25 182:11

201:11

days 115:9 190:11

DC 3:7

dead 130:15 148:8

153:3

deal 19:10 42:4

103:11,14 117:8

125:22 129:25

143:24 191:25

dealing 55:24 130:6

130:11 136:7

151:1

deals 104:11 111:21

111:24 137:23

199:2

dealt 166:14

dear 184:11

death 84:17 134:8

debate 129:10

142:13

decades 37:6 45:2

decedent 84:14

109:18,19 133:20

134:10 140:19

148:19 153:4

decedent's 139:19

148:14

decedents' 133:10

December 6:7,24

7:2,18 69:23 99:7

102:16,19 202:11

decide 15:4 56:18

167:9 177:18,19

182:25 183:12

decided 16:21 55:19

decider 168:5

decides 15:12

deciding 26:14

186:11

decision 16:5,8 34:9

35:9 38:20 56:2

57:20 87:14 94:1

100:17 105:5

125:7 130:15,24

131:17 134:22

139:19 142:18

143:21 153:13

167:8 168:7,10

201:7

decisions 73:9

132:10 135:11

148:7 165:19

179:1

deemed 66:18

defendant 2:10,22

3:4,11 4:12,23

21:17,18 81:11

94:25 113:16,17

defendant's 112:4

163:21

defendants 1:6 2:13

2:17 3:8 4:15,17

5:24 7:14 31:22

32:15,19 36:13

38:22 67:21 73:21

81:11 89:24

107:22 131:20

136:6 144:22

164:3 171:5

182:14,24

defense 26:18 31:2

36:14 38:5,18

45:6 65:22 72:4

130:22

defenses 104:3

deferral 72:1

deferred 72:18

deficiencies 187:18

deficiency 145:19

deficient 101:3

128:16

define 70:25 79:24

80:4 110:15

197:23

defined 7:22 13:1

97:4 109:10,19,20

110:16

defining 132:18

definition 98:3,23

defrauded 44:24

46:13 133:1,4,7

degree 148:24

delay 74:16

delays 72:14 73:2

deletions 88:5,7

demand 66:23

119:8 121:1

demanded 61:2,3

113:2,3

Demanding 112:24

demands 115:5

demon 157:24

demonstrate 38:24

demonstrates 39:10

denied 103:25

183:10

deny 99:14

dep 26:2

depose 132:13

160:15

deposed 21:19,23

29:8 136:2

deposition 26:2 29:5

115:7,11 149:19

149:25 151:8

152:7,13,19

156:20 157:3

158:8

depositions 20:13

113:14 118:19

160:13 171:4

175:7

derivatively 98:21

derived 10:22

DESCR 87:19

describe 109:9

133:3 139:18

145:20

described 34:6

115:5 141:4

describes 146:16

165:3

describing 28:6

29:16 135:24

description 87:12

87:19

deserves 199:9

201:16

designate 65:23

despite 134:11

dessert 123:5

destroyed 112:8

details 105:2

determination

164:17 176:6

177:25 183:14,18

186:6,21 187:11

193:24

determine 85:5

137:19 163:19

170:18 178:9

determined 137:17

148:17

determines 164:20

194:1 202:17,17

determining 199:5

develop 140:20

145:12,21,23

developed 166:17

device 168:14

diagnoses 70:18

84:21

diagnosis 20:21

85:14,14

dictates 45:17

differed 101:21

difference 19:1 37:7

53:4,19 118:1

152:4 192:22,23

differences 128:5

different 10:13 11:5

11:25 34:22 51:20

54:9 58:7 114:5

120:20 134:7

139:16 140:25

145:1 172:20

178:15 180:2

188:4,5 189:21

201:11

differentiate 53:4

differently 9:2

differs 109:17

difficulty 36:1

digestible 56:19

dignity 30:21 199:9

dire 136:18

direct 130:14 131:3

131:23

directed 150:8

152:1

direction 11:8

directives 150:24

directly 43:10 47:23

130:15,24 200:15

disadvantage 18:8

disagree 73:6,7 79:7

185:23

disagreement 135:9

disappoint 193:7

disclose 60:14

disclosed 96:3 104:9

disclosing 47:7

disclosure 7:8 8:6

46:8 54:2 55:9

91:23 92:7,19,21

107:4 127:5 131:8

167:1

disclosures 107:8

149:16

disconnect 145:2

disconnects 154:24

discoverability

83:13,15

discoverable 78:22

82:21

discovering 36:24

discovery 14:15

18:6 19:25 25:13

33:6,9,10 38:22

41:7 42:5 45:21

46:15 60:5,6

65:19,25 69:11

71:16,19 72:13,14

72:23 89:24 92:10

96:2 100:16

103:18,22 104:13

107:5,15 118:18

121:9 132:17,18

140:1,23 155:18

157:10 165:8

166:20 167:5

169:1 172:20

discuss 8:2 159:10

discussed 62:18,21

72:18

discussing 69:1,24

145:3

discussion 13:7

23:15 70:17 106:2

122:22 135:8

150:10

discussions 64:6

155:20

disease 20:19

dismiss 26:14 33:21

139:20

dismissal 98:13

dismissed 35:8

80:17 98:12

disposition 36:19

dispositions 138:4

disproportional

114:13

dispute 9:25,25

51:19 53:22 60:21

60:25 61:18 70:19

83:13,15 117:12

175:16

distinction 65:5

138:25 139:2

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USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 213

distinguishes 54:20

District 1:1,1 181:1

Division 204:22

DLCO 86:17

do-over 185:2

docket 20:21 85:9

200:13 201:20,23

docketed 6:9 102:22

docketing 201:2

doctor 21:19 51:2

85:15,15

doctors 21:13 32:12

34:20 39:22 48:22

48:23 49:3 50:21

51:2 70:18

doctors' 45:12

doctrine 44:13

57:23

document 58:8

94:19 112:16

121:4 139:10

146:20 165:23

167:6 173:23

178:15 179:23

190:2

documents 10:11

101:13,23 104:1

104:12,14 111:25

112:5,9,12,25

113:11,13 114:1

116:16 117:2,10

117:10 119:9,15

120:18 131:1,24

135:14 138:10

139:8 144:15

155:16 165:10,13

165:22 166:24

167:17,23 170:23

171:17,21 172:1,6

172:8,9,11,14,23

173:6,6 174:1,9

174:10,17,23

175:19 176:8

178:5,7,14 179:14

180:20 187:24

189:6 190:12

196:12

Doe 37:19,20

dog 100:3 168:10

dogs 40:22,23,25

doing 32:12 34:20

39:24 118:3

126:15 134:4

142:19 150:9

167:25 168:16,17

183:20

dollars 118:14

193:21

Donna 143:14

door 56:3

Dornbusch 3:11

4:24

double 201:17

double-space

162:17,25

double-spaced

163:3

doubt 66:22

Dr 37:4,5

drafted 204:7

drafts 157:21,21

drain 120:12,14

draw 65:5 139:2

drew 138:24

Drive 1:15

due 33:8 45:17

158:25 165:5

166:6 181:21

duty 14:9 120:1,3

E

E 2:13,16

E-electronic 82:9

e-mail 5:5 63:22

78:17,18 101:4

103:1 104:18

128:1 163:13,22

164:6

e-mails 42:10 62:19

75:8 101:9 191:7

ear 77:22

earlier 41:10 44:19

early 2:18 45:2

91:17 160:13,13

easier 63:8,11 72:7

82:24 106:21

163:8 172:5 190:8

easily 47:19 56:19

East 1:15

ECF 6:9,24 7:2,18

8:15,16 99:7

102:16,19,22

104:4 200:1,10

effect 186:7

effort 126:1 131:20

149:1,5 157:2,6

efforts 105:7 140:19

145:12,21

either 10:6 24:13

34:6 36:18 57:7

62:9 70:11 79:3

98:7 112:25

136:20 155:6

163:6 167:11

186:5,6 189:4

201:18

electronic 116:22

200:21

electronically 121:6

electronics 64:4

elements 10:7

Ellis 2:7 3:2 29:9

123:21

emergent 203:10,13

203:20 204:2,21

EMP 88:3

emphasize 12:10

employed 88:4

employee 206:10,12

employees 146:24

employer 21:11

84:18,19 88:3

employment 84:19

84:20

ended 84:20 90:12

90:15,17

engage 49:22 188:3

engaged 29:10

Engelhard 33:12,17

34:7 39:17 105:5

105:8 134:21

139:20 145:24

Engelhard's 145:25

Engelhard/BASF

39:7

Engelhard/Cahill's

146:25

English-to-English

30:7

enter 136:1 204:6

entered 6:25 17:5

203:25

entertain 96:7

entire 8:7 9:12

10:18 11:12 13:8

26:2 92:15 121:3

entities 67:14,20

69:5 105:1

entitled 7:14 32:19

36:23 45:21 61:9

73:15 93:9,10

96:1,4 107:17

123:22 149:20

151:11 155:19

156:22 166:20

195:13

entries 6:21 22:14

24:20 61:4,5

67:19 94:19

entry 52:7 100:21

102:21 200:13,19

201:20,23

equally 136:15

equals 39:14

equation 26:14,18

28:2

equity 185:15

especially 10:25

19:7 168:24 205:9

ESQ 1:16,17 2:4,5,5

2:9,13,16,22,24

3:4,7,11

essence 202:24

essentially 12:2,15

56:2 67:17 82:9

136:8 139:9

established 36:8

61:14 182:21

estate 160:18,21

161:5,13

estates 133:10

et 1:3,6

ethical 16:24 22:3

ethically 15:21

ethics 15:23 16:25

EUGENE 2:9

eve 180:5,8

event 41:5 92:21

164:24 204:16

everybody 4:2

16:24 23:25 24:5

36:22 42:18 43:5

46:1 48:17 73:15

74:1 86:23 87:2

94:5 120:8,23

125:11 126:5,11

148:25 155:22

157:18 158:15

162:17 166:10

184:3,15,16

189:22

everybody's 94:7

142:11

Everything's 116:22

evidence 17:5 31:7

37:5 48:23 51:12

51:16 56:10 89:20

92:16 98:11,16

112:21 113:18

115:22,24 118:24

119:20 120:3

177:13 192:17

evidentiary 165:9

ex 164:9,13 165:11

165:20,24 167:8

171:13 178:17

186:15 187:5

192:21 195:11

exact 24:20 93:3

161:4

exactly 21:4 30:4,5

36:3 45:7,8 60:15

60:17 186:18

204:24

exam 86:2,14,14

examine 191:9

example 14:25

30:11 39:19 49:13

64:6 65:21 137:5

143:4 167:21

examples 25:3 65:15

exceeds 198:5

Excellent 205:2

exception 6:1 55:10

68:24 74:11

158:22 163:20,20

167:14 174:21

exceptions 6:1

174:22

exchanged 11:5

exchanging 75:8

excluded 51:3

excluding 50:21

excuse 86:3

exercise 36:16

128:11,11 157:24

exhibits 118:21

exist 64:18 132:17

135:21

existed 135:20

148:19

exists 14:24 132:18

142:7

expand 112:3

expansive 54:24

expect 73:25 193:4

expected 135:2

expedition 31:12

experience 167:4

168:17

expert 20:12 50:4

57:8,9 95:14,21

95:25 96:1,2

111:6

experts 21:24 32:2

Case 2:11-cv-01754-BRM-AME Document 621-11 Filed 07/23/20 Page 214 of 233 PageID:

48249
USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 214

33:13 34:1 39:9

48:23,25 49:22

51:6,16 95:20

147:4

experts' 49:16

explain 112:1

139:15,17 145:11

explained 70:10

explains 193:19

explanation 140:11

145:22

explore 35:3

explored 147:2

exposed 85:18 98:5

98:21

exposure 21:12

123:16

extensive 55:21

67:22

extent 26:18 65:20

96:10 153:25

155:4 193:25

195:8

extinguished 45:7

extra 190:14,16

extracted 20:18

eye 120:15

eyes 65:24 91:22

F

F 2:9,18

face 31:4 34:8 35:1

39:8

facia 170:18 171:3

facie 31:19 164:18

169:25 172:6

176:5 177:3,8,25

178:2,3,8 185:22

186:16,22,25

187:11,21 188:13

193:24 194:2

facility 146:21,23

fact 10:10 18:22

32:10 33:17 36:3

36:21 37:19,20

44:15 46:12,18,19

46:21,24 47:2,5

57:18 58:4 66:18

66:20 69:13,19

71:1,16 73:23

75:24 92:4,6,7,13

104:24 107:3

119:12 123:24

127:1 138:9

149:14,15 150:17

157:6 167:11

176:15 183:20

184:9

factors 82:19

facts 34:5 36:7,17

36:24 101:14

136:7

factual 106:16

136:9 138:8

196:15

failed 100:15 176:20

181:12

failing 191:2

failure 176:20

fair 19:21 25:16

35:5,7 36:24

40:10 126:5

144:12 165:5

177:10 184:17

185:5 187:16

193:16

fairly 42:1,7,9 72:11

faith 149:1,4 157:6

fall 66:8

falls 1:15 94:15

106:18 119:14

false 44:12 77:9

familiar 43:12 76:21

191:3

family 21:14 132:6

134:6 135:16

family's 133:3

fan 163:7

far 12:19 20:7 35:25

68:21 76:6 88:18

98:25 125:16

133:19 162:14

199:22 202:4

Farrell 2:9 4:11,11

22:22 24:16,19,24

26:9,10,12 28:16

28:21 48:9,12

52:2,7,10,13,22

57:1 58:11,17,17

59:14,17,25 60:15

61:11 63:25 64:4

64:5 67:17 68:13

68:24 71:4,12

75:6 79:4,12 82:8

84:24 85:4,25

86:3,6,10 88:6,9

88:12 89:5 91:4

94:12,15 100:25

101:7 103:2

105:18 106:8,15

108:1 111:22,24

114:19,24 115:3

115:14,15,19

116:25 117:14

119:6 121:13

124:12 128:3

129:4,11,14,22

135:22 136:25

137:3,10,23 138:1

138:7,12,19,24

139:6,14 140:16

140:18 141:3

143:3,6 144:25

145:10 147:20,23

149:10,20 151:3

160:8 188:15

189:13,14

Farrell's 28:1,20

63:19 104:17

128:1

fatal 185:11

fatally 185:1

fault 205:6

favor 186:20

February 77:18

160:13

federal 17:5 44:20

50:20 56:10 66:20

89:20 92:16,22

112:21 115:25

126:22 166:16

168:24 175:15

fee 87:12,12

feel 13:21 27:12

65:2 105:17 181:7

feeling 80:22

felt 54:13

fen-phen 34:22

39:20 43:11 44:1

44:4

FEV 86:15

fewer 139:17

Fiberglass 46:14

fide 126:1

field 47:16 51:19,20

94:20,22

fields 3:7 4:16,16,20

8:9 9:24 18:2 29:1

58:12,15,18 75:12

78:21 79:6,8,10

79:19 82:20,21

83:1,23 84:25

86:1 88:9,14

96:11

Fifteenth 2:8 3:3

fight 74:1 100:4

118:22 168:10

figure 188:7 189:2

figured 36:11 119:3

147:21 179:4

204:9

file 25:22 26:3 49:17

58:3 98:17 106:2

122:10 150:12,13

160:17 165:12

177:23 180:16,24

181:25 182:24

185:4 186:20

189:3,4,10 191:19

191:22 192:3

195:1 199:14

200:1,7,13,14

201:12,13

filed 6:7 7:3,19,21

7:23 8:17 20:15

21:20,21 24:4,6,9

24:13 29:10 41:11

53:13 73:23 76:18

81:12 85:12,13

98:7 99:8 101:16

102:20 103:19

117:14 123:15

124:8 136:24

163:12 165:16

184:25 191:12

200:17

files 7:11,11 15:18

15:19,21 16:21

23:17 29:11

121:16 150:7,7,11

177:24 182:23

189:8

filing 15:9 42:3 91:2

102:12,18 148:11

159:24 163:18,24

164:13 166:6

197:5 200:9,15,22

filings 87:9 162:12

163:23

fill 171:6

filled 83:23,24

film 84:22,24 85:2

final 157:23 194:4

finally 36:18 39:21

68:15 92:11

147:21 194:17

financially 206:13

find 9:18 18:4 25:3

36:17 81:5 112:14

126:20 150:13

170:20 172:5

175:6 178:2 180:6

185:21 186:16

fine 41:14 62:11

63:24 72:21 73:7

80:8 102:10 124:4

125:15 136:15

159:7 184:23

198:9 200:12

201:14,17,20

202:2

finesse 201:22

finessing 141:21

fingers 158:3,9

finish 21:5 23:10

finished 53:1

finite 174:22 178:5

178:7

firepower 42:2

firm 4:19 7:20 11:3

11:8,9 13:12 17:8

17:9,18,23 18:4

35:22 54:13 89:11

96:15 97:1 116:19

146:20 184:23

firm's 9:22 10:22

54:11 99:12

firms 30:17 116:20

first 6:12 9:8,11

38:19,21 39:25

40:5 57:5 61:1

64:17 80:3 81:1

84:3,7 90:25,25

100:3,9,13,23

102:24 104:14,19

104:21 106:22

107:5 128:19,22

129:4,8,13,14,17

130:7 146:14

156:21,25 158:20

160:2 164:14

167:10 176:11

181:11 186:10

187:11,14,19

199:2 202:15

firsthand 134:12

146:3,17 151:2

153:18 154:18

fishing 31:12

five 119:7 156:6

188:15

five-thousandth

40:2

fix 162:8 180:14,15

180:16,21 185:11

Case 2:11-cv-01754-BRM-AME Document 621-11 Filed 07/23/20 Page 215 of 233 PageID:

48250
USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 215

185:15

flaw 185:12

flawed 185:1

flip 185:7,8

floating 89:22

floor 1:11 2:15,21

29:17

flow 66:3

fly 201:25

focus 158:13

focused 64:13 97:22

FOLEY 2:11

folks 36:23 99:20

155:23

folks' 73:2

follow 73:11 125:11

181:12 185:20

200:16

followed 181:19

183:9,9

following 20:18

83:17,20 95:6

166:22 173:25

193:25

follows 46:3 165:17

180:19

font 163:1

football 42:10

forced 16:22

foregoing 206:5

forfeiture 60:6

forget 117:22

134:23 135:7

form 11:17 12:2,5

100:19,21 114:3

196:16

format 56:8

former 12:11 140:7

formulation 135:23

forth 8:21 56:11

60:16 102:17

206:8

forward 15:19

16:20 29:21 64:2

94:8 125:2 127:21

134:11 141:24

142:2 164:21

186:8

found 19:6 95:23

112:11,13,16

142:14 150:9

178:8

four 39:22 95:23

129:5 142:7 189:9

192:2

frankly 41:8 46:9

47:24 52:16 72:7

112:5 127:13

135:22 159:19

160:11 172:4

fraud 6:1 113:19,20

113:20,23 163:20

165:9,19 167:13

169:25 170:19

171:4 174:21

175:6,17 176:6

187:22 194:3,5

fraudulent 43:15

70:17 130:12

fraudulently 35:8

free 105:17

Friday 180:12 181:7

friend 80:23

front 82:11 94:2

129:20 178:24

full 41:19 79:7

137:17 146:14

194:1

full-blown 59:4

fulsome 150:22

function 86:1,13,15

86:16 114:19,20

160:11 161:14,15

203:4

fundamental 186:7

fundamentally

180:11

further 35:4 47:5

93:13 104:13

131:13 133:22

135:12 164:6

195:8 206:9

furtherance 187:21

187:25 188:3

189:5

fuss 156:1

FVC 86:14,15

G

gain 96:22

game 35:5,7

games 42:10 165:16

gander 8:18 59:21

115:4 116:13

Gene 4:13 64:1

general 104:21

126:20 127:2

135:6 150:15

generally 130:9

143:20 155:12

156:16 204:7

genesis 32:20

getting 19:9 21:9

48:15,15 68:9

95:16,21 99:20

105:24 114:14

135:25 143:2

145:22 153:6

159:5 168:20

give 5:15 79:17,18

80:15 89:23 106:2

106:10 125:8

126:5,24 129:21

149:8 155:19

172:13 174:9

177:12 178:4,6,15

180:24 183:14

190:11,11,13

198:15 204:4

given 19:7 22:17

33:11 65:18 69:17

96:24 107:23

109:2 110:13

153:2 157:6

194:25 199:9

gives 9:23 149:5

giving 11:11 30:21

95:1 180:15

glad 11:20 137:4

196:25

glasses 162:22

glib 153:8

go 9:19 16:23 22:2,2

27:22 40:2 41:1

43:5 44:3,10,20

45:13 55:4 58:20

63:8,11 71:16

76:23 79:5 87:3

88:5 93:2 96:6

99:6 104:17

105:20 114:10

118:15 120:16

128:17,21 130:10

134:11 148:14

156:5 157:24

158:19 162:16

164:25 173:24

176:7 182:11

184:4 186:23

194:2 202:21

goes 30:16 110:21

139:1 144:14

155:8 162:14

169:2 186:7 189:9

192:2 195:8

197:25

going 5:20,20 6:3,4

9:1,18 13:18

18:11 27:22 28:3

28:7 29:21 34:18

38:17 39:5,16

41:9,19,25 42:4

42:13,14 45:19

48:11 56:18 59:20

59:20 63:9,12,12

63:13,16,20,21

64:10 70:25 71:9

71:18 72:5,6,9,14

72:19 73:2,11,12

73:13,16,25 74:2

74:5,12,14,18,19

74:24 75:2,3 76:8

76:10,20,23 77:13

77:19 78:12 79:2

79:9,10,11,16,17

79:18,19 80:1,1

81:5,10 83:5,7,9

84:1,3,6,10,15,16

84:17,25 86:10

89:19 93:14 94:8

95:8,9,19 96:10

98:24 99:14,19

100:22 106:14

108:17 109:21

110:14,22 111:14

121:24 122:7,8,9

122:22 123:8

124:7,11,19

125:16,17,19

126:3,24 127:6,24

128:17 129:15

131:13,22 132:12

132:21 133:1,2

136:16,17 141:15

147:24 152:25

153:9,18,19

155:22 156:12,25

157:17 158:3,10

158:19 159:16,18

159:22 160:10,12

161:21,24 162:3

162:11 163:18

165:2 169:14

174:18,22 175:11

176:22 177:2,4,7

177:16,18 178:4,6

178:6,7,10,11,16

178:19,24 179:11

179:18,20,21

180:6 181:3,4,22

185:7,9,21 186:15

186:17,19 187:17

190:21 191:12,17

191:18 192:3,14

192:20,24 193:2

193:15 194:14,15

194:25 195:20

196:10 197:23

198:3,23 199:9,14

199:25 201:5,8

202:12 203:7

204:10,22,23

golden 125:14

good 4:1 5:8,10 73:9

99:5 116:3,12

117:4 119:10

149:1,4 157:6,25

164:5 204:13

Goodyear 146:21

Goodyear's 146:24

goofy 116:7

goose 8:18 59:21

115:4 116:12

goose/gander

117:16 119:16

Gordon 5:24 22:12

23:22 164:2 166:4

gotten 118:20 126:8

139:10 172:20

govern 53:6

grab 162:13

Grace 50:20

grammar 128:11

granted 14:11,21

164:4 181:1 198:2

203:14

granular 81:19

gravely 193:8

gravity 186:11

great 43:13 75:6

189:25 204:19

205:2,2

greater 23:2

grips 181:12

ground 11:12 16:17

19:19 154:12

Groundhog 16:3

26:21 60:1

grounds 115:10

140:3 141:25

175:17

group 30:24 32:16

87:19,20,20

grouping 30:22

grow 42:21

Case 2:11-cv-01754-BRM-AME Document 621-11 Filed 07/23/20 Page 216 of 233 PageID:

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USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 216

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Case 2:11-cv-01754-BRM-AME Document 621-11 Filed 07/23/20 Page 217 of 233 PageID:

48252
USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 217

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Case 2:11-cv-01754-BRM-AME Document 621-11 Filed 07/23/20 Page 218 of 233 PageID:

48253
USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 218

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Case 2:11-cv-01754-BRM-AME Document 621-11 Filed 07/23/20 Page 219 of 233 PageID:

48254
USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 219

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59:7,10,14,24

60:12 61:8,25

62:4,6,11,14 63:2

63:5,10,19,23

64:3 67:15 68:5

68:14,19,22 70:22

71:9,23 74:8,19

75:13,16,19 76:1

76:5,16,22,25

77:3,21,25 78:9

78:23 79:1,15

80:12,21 81:4,14

81:17,23 82:3,23

83:1,4,7,14,21,25

84:6,10,23 85:2,7

85:11,20,24 86:24

87:3,10,16,24

88:8,11,17 89:6

89:12,18 90:1,4

91:7 93:5,17,21

93:24 94:14 95:4

95:24 97:3,6,13

97:16,19 98:1

99:13,17,19,22

100:2,7 101:5,8

106:1,5,13 107:24

108:2,5,9,14,17

108:23 109:1,6

110:2,5,7,14

111:10,13,20

112:18,24 113:3,8

113:20 114:16,22

115:13,17,20

117:5,23 118:2,6

118:10,13 119:2

119:21 120:2

121:21 122:4,9,15

122:18,21 123:4,7

123:10,13,19,22

124:10,16,23

125:3,6 127:22

129:2,7,12,20,24

130:3,18 132:16

132:21 133:4,12

133:14 134:13

136:11 137:1,9,12

137:18,21,25

138:6,11,16,21

139:5,12 140:14

140:17 141:1,8,11

141:18,21 142:5

142:20,25 143:5,7

143:11,14,18,25

144:3,8,13 145:9

146:5,8,11 147:16

147:21 148:3

149:18 150:2

151:6,10,17,19

152:17 153:4,9,20

153:23 154:4,9,19

154:23 155:1

156:10,13 157:11

157:15 159:14

160:16,21 161:2,6

161:11,16,20,23

162:2,7,10 163:2

163:5,16 168:5,19

168:20 169:1,4,10

169:13,18,21

170:3,6,9,14

171:1,8,11,15,20

171:25 172:18,24

173:1,4,9,13,16

174:4,6,11,19

175:2,8,22 176:1

176:9,13,22 177:6

177:11,16,21

179:6,9,20,25

180:3,8,14 182:1

182:5,8 183:5,22

183:24 184:1

185:23 187:4,8

188:9,17,20,23

189:8,14,16,19

190:5,9,18 191:11

191:17,21,24

192:7,10,21 193:4

193:7,10,15,20

194:7,10,14,19

195:2,5,14,18,24

196:3,6,17,23

197:3,7,10,20

198:12,18 199:17

199:20,24 200:11

200:21 202:7,12

202:16 203:19,24

204:11,19 205:1,9

master's 165:8

178:25

material 60:3

200:25

materials 199:7

matter 18:22 55:9

71:25 73:4 78:6

79:15 87:1 182:17

182:19 202:16

205:11

matters 39:6 66:9

78:4

McGuire 204:17

mean 7:20 9:11,21

10:10 11:3 20:24

30:2 31:4,18

38:12 40:15 45:25

46:24 50:8 56:17

72:15 85:21 97:14

99:13 108:25

110:3,15 112:15

129:25 167:24

180:15

meaning 68:15

138:4 197:13

meaningful 108:19

125:9 126:14

meaningless 117:18

means 16:5 30:3

46:6 85:16 89:9

91:1 121:21

133:21 135:9

146:15 197:4,5

meant 8:10 122:16

measly 44:25

measure 197:24

mechanism 168:15

Medford 1:24

medical 10:24 20:11

21:24 31:23 32:11

33:20,24 34:8

35:11,12 37:4

39:8,16 49:15

87:1

medicals 33:11,18

33:19,25 34:2

Medicare 87:12,13

87:13,16,17,17,18

87:24 88:1 91:5

meds 88:2

meet 9:13 13:7

51:21 82:10 95:10

95:12 96:9 159:11

member 15:11,13

15:14,15

members 14:10,16

14:17,20,20,22

15:9 19:4 21:15

55:17 82:14 93:11

96:12,25 138:13

members' 89:23

memo 85:20 202:22

202:25

memorandum 11:6

58:2 197:17

memory 136:20,22

163:25

mention 190:2

mentioned 29:5,7

48:22 65:14 186:1

193:23

mere 123:24

merits 10:6 45:10

mesothelioma 70:11

messes 168:21

met 9:16 66:12

69:19 164:17,20

method 101:19

109:13 155:18

methodology 73:8

73:10

Michael 2:5 4:7

micrographs 113:11

Microsoft 11:23

mid 202:10

middle 88:6 120:10

military 21:15 89:6

89:8 90:4,12,13

90:15,17

mill 34:19

MILLER 2:20

milquetoast 27:13

mind 26:24

mindful 150:17,23

mine 80:23

minimum 69:15

156:1

ministerial 161:16

162:3

minor 94:12 185:14

minute 39:21 52:21

64:8 189:17

minutes 156:6

188:15

misconception

79:14

misread 151:12

misrepresentation

133:7

missing 118:21

misstep 185:7,14

mistake 18:11

misunderstanding

13:5 76:13

modern 11:4

modify 55:8 79:21

79:22

moment 16:2,3

17:14 63:15 126:4

135:7 175:23

190:19 203:9

Monday 1:8 181:10

Montalto 2:24 5:13

5:14,17,18

month 108:19

122:12 160:5

Case 2:11-cv-01754-BRM-AME Document 621-11 Filed 07/23/20 Page 220 of 233 PageID:

48255
USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 220

months 42:19 60:4

71:16 95:23

107:15 111:18

113:14 179:16

180:1 203:8

moot 71:1 102:24

morning 4:1 5:8,10

59:19 60:21 65:16

67:23 69:14

140:23 156:4

moss 43:7

motion 5:25 6:4,8

6:18 7:16,23

25:15 41:11 42:3

42:5 55:7,24,24

70:10,24 76:18

99:6,8 101:15

102:12,23 103:19

103:22,25 105:16

106:3,11 107:2,21

110:22 117:14

121:16 122:8

158:18 159:24

163:19 174:20

182:24 184:24

186:4,11 202:8,25

motions 5:22 20:14

202:18,19,23

mouths 150:20

movant 8:24

move 8:24 15:19

16:19 49:17 72:14

73:1,12 106:6

123:12 125:1

moved 106:5 157:8

moves 175:16

179:13

moving 74:2 78:1

94:7

multiple 60:7 61:22

64:5 74:11

N

N.W 2:8 3:3,6

name 5:16 20:22

39:24 84:4,7

90:18,20,24,25

137:7,12 156:12

named 55:11 104:24

109:7,22 110:17

160:22

names 12:24 22:19

Nancy 52:11

narrow 58:19

National 45:3 70:15

75:20,21

nature 7:16 53:15

110:13

Navy 90:23

near 184:11

necessarily 39:19

49:18,20 142:5

149:4

necessary 20:1 21:1

202:2,4

need 9:15,23 10:4

25:11,12 60:14

63:13 70:9,9

71:16 72:5 78:11

78:13 93:5 94:9

114:7 116:22

120:6,6,16 124:25

126:4 127:8

152:13 156:14

157:11 158:13

159:19 160:7

169:18 172:4,7

182:17 186:15,24

187:4,8,9 191:22

202:3 204:13,14

204:14

needed 40:25 156:5

204:21

needing 71:13

needs 22:2 42:6

68:10 73:1 119:18

140:10,10 141:3

negotiate 74:17

neighborhood 97:7

neither 64:22 91:2

206:9,11

net 12:3 79:22

never 12:25 16:16

24:4,5 32:3 82:17

114:22 157:13

158:12 171:10

177:7

new 1:1,24 2:16

60:13 68:8 161:6

161:13 162:18

181:1 185:9

Newark 2:21,21

nice 40:22 162:23

162:25 163:6

164:15

night 180:13 181:7

NJ 1:16 2:12,21

3:10

Nobody's 31:9

non-advocacy

192:13

non-answers 103:2

non-bankruptcy

67:14 69:5

non-filer 24:3

non-filers 24:1

non-garbled 27:16

non-malignant

70:14 71:7,21

84:25 86:11,20

non-parties 55:25

105:14

non-party 17:23

38:22 54:17

non-privileged

199:15

non-proportional

163:7

non-settlement

34:10

non-substantive

128:9

non-talc 69:5

nonexistent 117:18

normally 8:24 77:22

167:3,4 168:6

200:16,18 203:19

note 105:21 111:15

140:4 157:17

158:17

noted 64:7 106:18

163:22

notes 48:8,9 83:8,8

164:25 206:7

nothing's 42:14

notice 115:9 126:5

141:21

noticed 162:20

notion 35:24 75:10

144:17,19

November 82:8

100:11 111:17

NS 83:20,21

number 6:9,15,24

7:2,18 8:15 14:13

20:21 22:15,17,23

23:16,17,19,20

24:21 27:9 47:17

77:8 79:14,16

85:8,9,10,12

88:10,20 90:20

94:21 97:20

101:24 102:17

103:8 104:1,7,24

105:1,3,3,6,7,10

105:13 106:23

108:18 109:8,23

111:21,23 117:17

117:21 118:25

127:19 128:20,22

129:6,18,22,22,23

129:23,24,25

130:3 131:5

137:24,25 138:1

139:14,17 140:18

141:12 143:6,10

143:17 144:24

145:5,11,19

147:12 159:17,19

160:3 165:17

166:25,25 167:9

174:23 178:5,7

numbering 139:16

numbers 6:23 22:10

88:12 129:21

139:5

numerous 50:5

NY 2:16

O

o'clock 194:21

oath 152:24

object 127:11,11

141:24 194:10,16

objected 82:11

objecting 164:12

objection 41:14

127:12,14,14,15

135:6 141:24

142:1 162:6 183:6

objections 7:21

104:21 126:21

127:2 158:7

objectively 184:13

obligation 42:11

127:10 134:14

150:25 155:9

175:19 176:18

200:24

obligations 46:8

127:4

obliged 126:13

133:18

obtained 146:18

obviously 59:3

110:4 139:20

183:2 203:9

occupation 84:20

occupy 158:14

168:7

occur 42:6 96:7

107:5

occurred 105:15

107:7 115:14,15

115:17

occurs 35:21

October 7:7 8:14

16:5 26:21 69:1

100:10 107:11

138:19 176:11

odd 172:19

offer 19:18

offered 9:13

office 200:18,19,22

202:21,23

OFFICER 206:1

offices 1:11

oh 63:8 95:22 98:3

118:13 125:5

129:2 163:16

187:6 202:12

Ohio 7:8 44:11

66:15,22 160:19

161:3

okay 4:20,21 5:19

12:3 13:3,17,19

16:3,9 18:9 19:13

21:7 23:1,13,21

24:17,23 25:6,18

27:8,18 28:22

29:2 30:9 35:22

37:16,18 40:2,7

40:17 41:2 42:20

43:14 44:4,6,17

45:25 46:17 47:1

47:4,10 48:14

49:20 50:7,16,22

52:4,20 53:1 55:6

58:16 59:7,14,16

61:8,10,25 63:2

64:3 71:12 74:22

75:2,9 76:5,19,25

78:1,2,4,23 79:7

79:19 80:19 81:4

81:14 82:3,23

83:3,6 84:1,10,15

85:2,7,11,20,24

86:24 87:3,10,24

88:11,17,18 89:12

90:3 91:7 95:13

97:13 98:23 101:5

101:7 106:13,15

107:24 110:2,5,17

111:10 112:18

114:18 115:17,20

Case 2:11-cv-01754-BRM-AME Document 621-11 Filed 07/23/20 Page 221 of 233 PageID:

48256
USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 221

115:24 117:24

120:7 121:22

122:9,23 123:7,10

123:13 125:3,14

126:6 127:22

128:20 129:22,24

130:3,18 132:17

137:1,9,22 138:6

139:12 140:14,17

141:8,12 142:20

143:14,18,23

144:13 146:8

148:5 151:6 152:3

153:22 154:3,25

157:23 159:14

160:16 161:11

162:9 163:4 168:6

169:12,21 171:1

171:20,25 173:1

173:16 174:4,8,19

175:2,21 176:9

179:9,16,17,18

181:15 182:1

185:5 187:6,20,25

188:8 189:12,13

189:16 190:9

192:10 193:6

194:7,14 198:17

201:2,3,18,22

205:10

old 42:19,21 73:14

115:23 141:15,18

163:8 168:13

omelette 148:6

once 5:20 27:11

40:21,22 79:24

93:1,14 103:18

142:14 165:15

166:12 198:5

204:17

one's 92:23

onerous 30:3

ones 63:8,8,11

129:17 174:23

opens 56:3

operate 98:24 126:9

operation 167:11

operative 12:13

opinion 15:23 40:11

40:12

opinions 40:23,24

opportunity 40:19

55:25 72:5 103:18

177:12,17 180:15

204:5

oppose 165:12

opposed 57:9 65:6

95:2,21 119:15

169:9 189:6

opposes 166:4

opposing 157:18

opposition 7:1,3,19

70:1 102:20 106:9

163:19,24 165:16

165:23 166:5,6,21

177:23 179:21

180:6,9,22 186:24

189:10 192:2

201:1,15

oppositions 102:18

opt 15:12 56:1

optimistically 156:7

option 12:8

Oral 1:10

oranges 147:24

order 6:4,25 7:25

8:14,23 10:24

15:17,19,25 16:19

17:5,7 22:3,3

41:10 45:25 58:21

60:13 63:12 65:19

65:25 69:11 79:10

83:5,9,19 89:19

89:20 91:20,23

92:10,15,17 94:8

94:10 96:10,24

100:19,22,25

102:17,21 104:15

110:4,7,11 127:21

169:7 171:5

199:22 200:5

204:6

ordered 12:4 18:5

45:20 61:6 72:23

93:12 95:13

107:22 110:25

138:9

orders 7:7 30:12

73:3 190:1

organization 30:20

30:21 85:4

organized 11:5

organizing 168:11

original 44:21 84:4

101:13,23 104:1

104:12,13 109:18

111:25 112:5

113:11,12,17

114:1,6,10 115:11

116:3,6,10 117:2

119:8,15 121:1

127:23 135:20

157:7 163:10,13

originally 111:16

originals 102:1,2,2

112:14,14 113:1,7

113:9,19 114:11

116:9 117:4,12

119:10

ought 32:24 35:2

121:9 152:20

197:5

outlined 94:16

output 12:8

outside 189:9 190:3

192:2

over-thinking

182:15

overarching 155:23

overboard 190:2

overdue 107:23

overreached 19:22

overreaching 19:23

overruled 142:1

oversell 75:22

overtaken 101:1

Owens 46:13

owned 53:17 54:16

P

P 1:17

P-E-A-S-E 52:12

P.C 2:9

p.m 205:11

PA 1:11 2:4

package 49:14

50:22,23

packs 88:24,25

page 55:3 70:2 87:4

88:12 94:18

143:17 145:24

146:3,5,12 163:25

164:3 169:23,24

172:14 187:5

198:5

pages 118:21

142:23,23 164:5

171:16 196:18,19

196:20,24 197:13

pages' 164:8

paid 44:25 87:12,13

197:11

painfully 34:17

150:3

paper 116:21 121:6

papers 117:2

paragraph 54:4

97:21 146:15

147:25

parallel 170:6

parameters 75:23

paraphrased

186:18

Park 1:15

part 8:5 12:12,18,21

12:25,25 19:24

31:8 48:24 51:20

54:11,21 75:2

77:9 96:11 97:2

108:12 111:7

112:22 124:13

129:15 156:8

186:24 194:6

196:2 200:9 201:6

201:9

parte 164:9,13

165:11,20,25

167:8 171:13

178:17 186:15

187:5 192:22

195:11

partially 175:18

participants 2:19

3:1 22:15

participate 172:4

particular 38:24

150:14 185:18

203:6

particularly 73:19

113:25 157:1

183:15

parties 8:5 14:18

53:13,17 67:2

95:2 105:15 120:2

160:17 164:23

194:4 206:11

parties' 14:5 53:11

partly 205:6

partner's 27:21

partners 43:23

party 17:9,18 19:2

51:10 65:7,11

94:24 123:25

127:10 166:19

168:8 175:16

176:18 182:18

party's 127:4

passage 132:6

passed 61:21

passion 48:6

passive 128:10

patience 13:20

patient 27:19 48:16

51:8

patiently 83:10

patients 39:23

pattern 40:3,6 46:5

paying 44:24 69:3,6

payment 6:14 47:6

92:2,5,8

payments 91:11

PC 2:2 3:9

PD 87:5,7,18

Pease 52:11 105:13

pendency 25:14

pending 29:11

92:20 202:8,9

pens 116:17

people 12:24 15:3

18:4 24:4,8 27:10

27:12 30:23 33:21

38:2 42:6 46:12

61:6 74:11,14

75:24 80:7 90:22

97:1,12 114:9

126:1,12,20 130:6

130:14 131:7,12

139:3 141:16

142:17 151:1

157:7 163:8

201:24 204:4

people's 29:22

percent 70:12

125:23,24

perception 136:20

136:21,22

percolated 203:7

perfect 197:2

perfectly 72:24 73:7

198:9 201:14

performing 168:12

period 72:13 98:18

permission 15:22

16:20,23 99:15

permit 195:9

permitted 15:21

199:15

peroxide 77:11

103:17

perpetrated 113:19

person 25:1 104:24

123:14 124:8

148:9,10 151:20

153:2 167:15

168:4 169:8

Case 2:11-cv-01754-BRM-AME Document 621-11 Filed 07/23/20 Page 222 of 233 PageID:

48257
USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 222

person's 98:21

personal 6:22 66:17

130:17 131:16

134:18 148:10,11

153:25 154:1

personally 141:6

persons 98:3

perspective 19:19

36:20

pertaining 131:17

peruse 13:10

Peter 2:9 4:11

PFT 85:24 86:1,13

PFTs 87:2

phase 196:3,4,6

Philadelphia 1:11

2:4

phone 4:22 36:23

photomicrographs

115:6

phrase 117:22

physical 86:2,14,14

physician 134:9

physicians 43:23

pick 59:16 75:5

picked 193:18

picking 48:17 79:5

picture 27:24

172:12

piece 113:14 121:6

147:10 174:14

181:8 193:19

196:13,15

pieces 70:1

pierced 168:15

pile 146:9

pity 198:10

place 19:17 46:10

46:11,25 47:3

67:11 130:7

199:23 206:7

Placitella 2:2,4 4:5,5

5:6 13:17,19,24

14:3,8,13 16:2,7

16:10,18 17:6,13

17:15,21 18:14,18

18:25 19:14 21:4

21:7,10 23:4,8,25

24:4,7,11,15 25:2

25:7,16,20 26:17

27:1,4,18 28:5

29:4,16,20 30:4,8

30:10 31:6,11,17

32:6,8 33:1,3,5,7

33:10,15 35:7

37:2,13,22 38:1,4

38:9 41:12 42:23

42:24 43:9,19

44:2,7,16 46:19

46:22 47:2,9,21

48:1 49:25 50:2,3

50:9,12,14,18

51:4 52:6 62:3,5,7

62:8 65:20 67:23

68:6,10,17,20,23

69:14 71:6 74:12

76:15 80:10,13,19

81:1,2 86:22,25

92:24 93:6,8,19

93:22 94:11 97:10

97:22 98:24 99:2

114:6 115:7 117:6

119:12,18 121:10

121:11 123:8,11

132:25 140:22

151:7 160:25

161:4 164:12

165:7 168:2

169:17,20,22

170:5,8,12,16

171:2,14,18,21

172:2,22 173:2,8

173:11,15,19

174:8,13,25 175:5

176:3 177:22

178:4,18 179:4,8

180:19 181:8,24

182:2,6,16,23

184:23 188:2

189:3,19,20 190:7

190:10,25 194:8

194:12 195:13

197:18 202:9,14

203:15,22 204:9

205:10

Placitella's 49:11

119:8 175:18

176:19 191:8,14

plaintiff 20:19,20

21:12,21,22,25

49:14 84:8,12

95:1 105:12 109:3

124:5 132:22

145:4,4,20,20

149:22 151:25

152:21 159:1

185:11

plaintiff's 31:2

plaintiffs 1:4 2:6 4:4

4:6,8,10 6:14,17

6:19 7:3,13,21

9:22 10:7,16 13:9

22:18 23:24 28:3

36:10,12 55:12

61:1,11,16 64:9

64:22 67:16 69:6

69:8 70:8 73:18

86:21 91:11,13

92:2,12 93:16

94:9 100:14 101:2

102:20 103:5,16

103:23 106:6

107:11 109:7,23

110:17,19,20

111:9 112:6,12

114:10 130:24

131:10 135:21

136:2 139:15

149:15 150:5

157:7 158:19

160:9,15 164:17

165:10,11,20

167:22 169:14

plaintiffs' 5:25

21:11,13,14,14,15

26:13,24,25 28:24

41:18 48:2 70:1

70:23 71:3 72:2

89:22 101:12,12

101:14 104:18

106:9,22,25

107:17 108:3

115:4 149:16

163:19 165:5

planning 70:8

plant 146:25

play 63:16 64:4

166:15 170:22

179:18 182:23

184:2 186:3

197:23

playing 72:10

playoff 165:16

pleadings 20:10

please 4:4 5:16

13:23 21:6 24:18

27:17 83:10

105:17 118:13

158:19,23 162:16

162:17,25 178:8

198:9,15

pled 12:13 97:14

plowed 16:17

PLRP 87:17,17,18

plus 34:24 58:20

60:3 70:12

POA 87:21

point 12:9 14:12,19

14:23 16:19,19

21:9 25:7,9,19

26:23 28:1,23

29:20 31:14 39:12

48:20 53:2 58:19

60:2,11 61:15

66:4 69:22,22

71:5 75:5 79:13

81:10 94:13 96:8

105:25 106:8,12

119:22 123:16

124:22 126:10,11

127:7,18 145:17

148:6 162:18

165:14 166:23

170:22 175:7

177:17 178:21

179:11 198:12

201:5,6

pointed 187:19

pointing 158:2,9

points 14:13 60:24

74:11

poke 73:21

polite 205:7

politely 122:19

poor 48:9 90:22

198:10

posed 192:5

position 9:10,12

10:17 11:12 14:8

19:3 36:3,25 48:5

54:9 59:2 71:6,13

89:16 93:9,10,13

105:19 112:13

121:14,15,17

172:19 194:9

195:12

positions 14:5

possession 136:10

140:6,9 149:23

150:4

possessor 167:5

possibility 13:16

possible 12:16,18

13:2,13 58:15

75:17 80:6 124:24

possibly 156:1

Post 90:25 91:4

potential 15:15

22:18 23:23 38:2

38:10 71:19

power 87:21,22

powers 185:15

practical 148:4

practice 43:22 46:6

49:11

practiced 180:25

practicing 155:11

practitioners 10:24

pre-certification

103:21

precedent 92:24

preclude 70:4

precluded 95:14

prefer 162:15

200:11

preference 201:12

prejudge 177:9

prejudice 72:4

73:13

prejudiced 181:3

preliminary 13:20

premature 14:24

15:7 103:6,11,14

104:6,8 110:12

prematurely 7:16

prematurity 60:16

107:1

prepare 58:3 202:24

prepared 58:8

111:8 159:8

presence 10:25

99:12,14

present 1:13 11:25

48:7 70:19 133:25

presented 8:20

55:23 91:15

presently 76:2

preserve 93:12

120:3

pressed 128:19

presumably 86:12

86:14 91:4 130:23

142:1

presume 67:18,19

140:1 199:25

pretending 174:2

pretty 30:13,14 70:5

70:7 81:18,18,19

97:6,14 154:5

166:17 168:22

171:17 176:17

178:22 183:16

191:8

prevented 95:16

104:12

Case 2:11-cv-01754-BRM-AME Document 621-11 Filed 07/23/20 Page 223 of 233 PageID:

48258
USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 223

previous 145:14

previously 10:14

53:8

prima 31:19 164:17

169:25 170:18

171:3 172:5 176:5

177:3,8,25 178:2

178:3,8 185:22

186:16,22,24

187:11,21 188:13

193:24 194:2

primary 84:18,18

84:21 85:14

print 116:23 142:23

printed 128:2,4

prior 7:10 8:14 10:1

98:6

private 43:22

privately 201:13

privilege 6:2 11:14

15:10,16 19:8

29:23 54:15 66:4

67:6 92:18 135:7

137:15 139:25

140:2 141:25

142:3 148:18

163:21 166:11

167:1,10,13

173:24 174:1

175:17,20 183:4

195:12 199:1,3

privileged 53:15

55:9 56:3,23 57:7

57:14,15 62:20

65:12 67:4 142:9

143:25 166:22,25

167:1,6,7,9,17

178:14,16 193:3

prize 120:16

probably 18:14 44:9

85:23,25 86:13

177:2 200:3

probate 7:9 87:7,9

87:11,11,12,12,25

88:1

probation 201:17

problem 36:5 40:5,7

43:16 44:23 46:3

62:25 64:21

102:25 116:11

117:7 122:2,4

132:16 148:1

149:7 152:25

153:6,24 156:9

158:5,6 162:8

180:17 183:11

201:14

problem-- 34:3

problems 104:20

129:18 180:21

procedural 160:9

183:7,11,13,13

185:6,14 186:12

187:15,16,23

procedure 164:23

175:3,11 180:18

181:25 185:20

proceeding 92:22

proceedings 170:7

173:17

process 7:5 9:13

43:2 51:21 76:8

96:6 139:19

145:15 165:5

167:2 168:24,25

170:25 182:22

183:8 185:7,8

189:2 195:8,9

200:9,16 203:1

processes 28:25

produce 6:20 8:19

12:1,23 17:19

21:2 58:6 61:17

61:22 62:1,19,21

63:13 64:23 66:23

75:8,11 79:7,23

82:18 83:2,12,16

83:19 86:21 89:19

101:25 102:1

109:21 117:6

125:16,18,23

132:22 134:14

produced 6:21 7:11

9:14 10:24 12:4,5

56:8 62:23 63:6,9

63:11 66:22 72:23

74:18 79:20 80:15

80:20 91:25 92:9

92:14 94:23

102:11 112:12,23

113:5,13 114:11

117:11,20 121:4

138:10 148:21

150:14

producing 13:14

59:5 65:2 77:18

82:12 96:19

112:25 117:10

124:1

product 8:7 9:14

10:18 11:13 17:9

17:19,24 18:3

19:5 21:18 29:22

32:12 43:1 53:16

53:21 54:16 56:3

56:6,14,15,19,24

57:2,7,13 61:20

66:5 67:6 85:16

85:18,23 134:9

157:23

production 6:5 7:22

7:24 8:2 15:18

28:14 53:6 54:6

69:9 79:10 91:21

96:11 155:16

products 98:5,10,11

98:15

profession 34:17

184:8 205:2

Professional 46:7

professor 197:15

profitably 80:9

81:21

Project 45:3 70:16

75:22

pronounce 52:12

proof 39:14,15

176:21 184:9

proofs 132:19

proper 103:7

properly 32:12 36:2

127:9

proportional 68:9

163:7

proportionality

68:7

proposal 9:21 10:15

51:20 62:9 178:25

proposed 5:23

100:19,21,25

102:21

proposing 8:3 72:3

178:11

proposition 17:20

37:3

propounded 100:10

100:11 110:18

111:16 127:9

130:21

propounding

125:12

proprietary 8:4,13

11:23 29:14 37:23

54:6

prosecute 134:21

140:20 145:12,21

145:23 147:7

prosecuting 146:19

prosecution 105:8

147:15

protect 14:9 54:1

91:20 195:11

protectable 37:12

protected 11:13

55:9 56:24

protection 53:16

54:18,24 92:18

protective 8:23

protects 38:16

prove 69:17 74:2

85:17 108:21

proven 36:14

113:21

provide 12:15

107:22 110:8

126:14 128:4

131:10,20 138:5

148:15 150:22

153:13 157:2

169:24

provided 10:23 13:9

13:9 15:23 45:23

94:21 100:18

101:2 106:16,17

107:9,19 127:25

128:14,16 130:25

138:8 140:10

144:20 150:6

155:6 160:4

165:10

provides 29:15

165:1

providing 13:4,11

54:23 106:17

169:15

provision 171:13

psychiatric 118:15

193:21

public 10:11 170:2

175:12 186:20

188:12 189:3

192:15,25 194:6

194:22 199:14

201:6,10 202:4

pull 63:21

pulled 198:25 199:3

pulmonary 85:25

86:13

punishment 59:11

pure 184:24 199:21

purely 183:7

purpose 36:16

114:14 120:12

155:24 170:13,16

180:21

purposes 20:17

82:16 132:18

pursuant 16:25

91:22,23 100:18

push 132:2

put 35:23 68:7 77:4

95:8 126:17 129:8

129:12 137:13

141:24 142:1

150:20 153:20

154:4,6 173:18

179:20,21 190:23

201:16 203:11

putative 7:17 14:10

14:17,19,22 15:9

15:10,13 19:3

52:8 55:16 61:5

70:12 77:9 82:13

89:23 93:11 96:12

96:25 102:8

138:12 139:4

puts 10:12 54:8 83:8

putting 62:15 74:4

154:11 177:21

Q

qualified 6:14 47:6

91:11 92:2,4,8

qualify 47:16

quality 84:22,24

85:2 114:5

quarrel 152:6

quash 55:8

quest 89:7,8

question 30:24 32:5

38:15 47:13 58:25

76:1,2,10,17,17

89:9 108:15,23,24

109:1 111:25

113:12 124:8,13

152:10,15 160:18

160:21 173:5,5

192:5,11

questionable 31:3

questionnaire 89:10

questions 107:12

127:23 171:6

quick 42:13

quickly 41:15 42:9

42:17 72:6,14

Case 2:11-cv-01754-BRM-AME Document 621-11 Filed 07/23/20 Page 224 of 233 PageID:

48259
USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 224

81:16 190:17

198:2 204:13,14

204:15

quiet 156:11

quill 116:17

Quinn 2:22 5:8,9,11

quote 8:8 101:13

109:9 192:16

quote/unquote

115:11 117:2

119:9

R

raise 94:12 96:9

raised 107:10

117:14 119:3

145:17 187:17

raises 28:16

raising 74:11 119:7

Ralph 146:21

Ralph's 143:21

146:19 147:4

ratio 86:16

rattled 26:17

Raymark 50:21

re-deposed 159:3

re-respond 158:23

reach 186:15

reached 62:10 64:8

reaching 82:16

reaction 108:11

reactions 187:13

read 19:9 27:16

50:22 56:8 70:23

86:4 148:13,23

156:25 162:19,22

162:24 163:8

173:22 193:12

197:1 199:4

201:15

reader 198:6

reading 25:3 53:10

54:24 85:5 86:15

86:16 87:2 94:19

154:15 162:18

ready 36:19 41:22

42:17 72:24 185:4

real 128:21

reality 182:20

realizes 190:25

really 9:14 11:1

15:5 23:16 30:2

34:20 41:6 56:9

58:18 60:21 61:18

68:6 70:22 71:2

72:8 75:10 78:6

83:23,24 106:23

111:11 136:5

148:13 151:17

162:21 164:15

167:2 168:9

169:14 204:13,24

rear 120:11

reason 18:24 23:4,8

27:15 42:20 64:13

66:15 70:9 98:9

98:14 108:13

113:12 120:24

124:13 129:16

166:20 177:18

184:21

reasonable 8:3

10:16 32:11

reasons 141:13

156:22 166:22

188:6

rebut 174:15 178:19

rebuttal 165:13

recalcitrance 73:3

receive 164:24

received 6:14,16

31:22 34:7 47:6

53:12 54:11 57:7

65:6,6 67:3,9,16

70:20 81:12 88:2

89:7 91:11,12

92:2,4,8,12 103:1

145:25

receiving 146:25

recited 9:9

recognized 64:24

recommending

169:10

record 10:18 13:21

14:14 16:13,14,15

21:5 31:7 41:8

59:9 80:11 83:11

95:9 110:9 111:15

145:3 163:12

165:9 170:2 190:4

194:6 201:6,10

202:2

records 20:12 39:8

39:16 49:15 80:16

146:4,18

red 82:20 112:6

redacted 88:13

reduced 51:23

redundant 20:1

refer 38:5 170:1

reference 133:5

201:24

references 140:5

referral 8:12 30:12

38:6 39:13 48:21

48:25 49:4,9,12

91:16

referrals 32:18

referred 30:20,23

32:10,10 37:21

115:8 171:16

referring 6:13 7:15

10:5 20:3 28:16

32:5,16 38:20

55:5 65:4,9,17,22

66:5 91:10

refers 37:19 50:23

reflect 110:9

reflected 51:18,19

53:12 58:2

reflects 57:19 58:14

reformed 75:11

regard 10:9 55:11

55:14 90:17

129:18 134:7

182:22

regarding 10:2

108:21 130:25

144:20 145:15

regardless 9:12 13:1

91:13 107:15

110:15

registrar 161:8,9,19

Reiley 1:17 88:15

156:11

Reiley's 83:7

reiterate 195:7

reject 190:19,22

rejected 19:18 60:4

60:6,10 140:1

165:18

related 67:8 85:23

97:11,25 98:6,22

106:24 138:10

148:1

relates 10:5 30:11

93:15 96:24

relational 8:8 11:22

18:18 58:5 79:21

relationship 38:11

relative 206:10,12

relevance 10:4

relevant 8:13 15:3

77:10 86:11 95:5

104:2 112:9 114:1

114:2 124:20

164:16 165:4

reliance 71:20

relied 96:1,2 131:2

131:24 135:15

144:16 151:15,22

152:1,11

relief 109:10,13,14

109:16,17

relieve 123:25

religion 42:20

relitigate 45:9

relitigating 40:12

40:18 41:5

rely 95:15,25 120:3

120:5 134:3

relying 54:22 70:4

124:6

remain 104:21

204:12

remains 110:12

remediable 47:19

remedy 44:19,25

45:1

remember 34:16,24

61:1 69:1 83:22

120:12 182:18

remind 42:18

162:17

reminder 118:24

reminding 166:2

removed 117:3

reopen 45:14

rep 25:24 29:5

repeating 102:3

repeats 8:21

replies 7:1 102:18

reply 8:17 104:5

177:24 179:22

180:19,21 182:24

189:4,8 190:5

191:14,18 192:1

199:20

report 13:14 37:4

95:22 96:13

167:24

reporter 1:12 27:10

86:3,7 206:5

reporters 1:22

34:12

reports 12:1 20:12

31:23 32:2 33:20

34:8,10 35:1,11

35:12 39:23 45:12

49:16 58:6 165:8

178:25

representations

133:6 147:1

152:21

representative 84:7

84:11,12 109:2,7

109:22 110:16,19

110:20 115:8

130:23 134:8

148:10,11 160:22

160:24

representatives

52:8 70:11 133:9

133:15,18 138:3

138:13,25 161:13

representing 9:3

19:3 43:23

reps 61:5 103:20

138:14,23 139:7

reputational 65:21

66:2

request 14:24 15:6

41:19 80:15 83:16

103:23 139:10

165:18,19,21

195:21,22 198:2

requested 7:6 41:12

80:4 160:1 163:25

requests 155:15,16

167:5

require 19:7 21:2

required 8:19 99:12

101:25 102:1

requirements 73:19

103:15

requires 55:8

research 198:24

researched 184:25

reserves 200:14

resolve 60:19 91:24

resolved 87:13

121:23 129:15

respect 6:25 7:4,10

11:19 23:23 28:1

28:8,24 33:8 34:9

34:15,18 40:8,9

42:25 45:17 68:6

71:21 73:17 91:14

94:3 100:13

101:10,23 102:23

103:4,8,13 104:14

104:23,25 105:6,6

109:22 110:23

111:3 116:7 117:7

127:7,22 128:13

Case 2:11-cv-01754-BRM-AME Document 621-11 Filed 07/23/20 Page 225 of 233 PageID:

48260
USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 225

128:19 134:2

139:7 143:21

144:17,19 147:8

147:16 148:23

154:12 158:17,25

159:1,23 181:22

183:3 184:7 186:6

200:23 202:25

respected 94:7

Respectfully 125:2

184:20

respecting 94:23

respects 149:1

respond 78:17

108:18 110:22

122:6 126:1,16

127:10,12 149:1

155:9 159:22

174:5 178:10,12

180:23 198:13

204:14

responding 108:2

122:5 127:10

128:11 135:4

response 5:25 28:20

29:16 40:25 42:9

42:13 80:15

104:12 105:4

106:7 111:7 119:1

119:8 125:13,13

130:20 131:5,18

135:25 137:8,13

138:7,8 139:23

142:24 143:16

147:6,11 150:19

150:22 151:3

152:15 153:17

157:10 159:23

170:17 178:12

186:13

responses 28:17

103:7,24 105:11

105:14 106:10,11

109:21 125:9

127:18 130:16

131:15 132:15

134:19 143:1,13

144:18 148:12

151:23 152:3

154:14,17 156:25

158:20,23,25

159:25 201:22

responsibilities 22:4

Responsibility 46:7

responsible 109:11

responsive 126:3,4

132:2 146:1

147:12 157:2

159:16

rest 100:4 198:22

restrict 69:9

restrictions 54:5

173:18

result 7:6 12:4

32:13 79:22

100:18 166:16

183:19

results 114:3

retain 55:25

retained 147:4

retaining 167:22

retreading 135:8

reversed 23:6

review 16:6,8 21:23

34:1 73:8 94:10

164:9 165:12,18

165:20 170:22

178:25 189:6

194:23 201:8,25

202:2,23

reviewed 31:22

33:12,18,25 39:8

135:16 201:9

202:20

reviews 169:1

revisit 126:5

right 5:21 14:9,15

15:8,16 17:8

19:20 21:4,6 26:8

26:11,20 27:22

28:11 30:5 33:14

33:23 34:18 36:6

41:15 43:4,9 44:9

44:10 50:15 55:20

63:23 68:16,18

73:21 76:3,8 79:9

81:17 82:5 84:8

87:15 93:12 94:2

95:5 98:2,20 99:2

111:13,20 113:5

118:14 121:1

122:24 123:2,6

124:18,23 133:13

134:11 135:10

145:9 146:12,14

147:19 151:12,19

153:5 154:15

160:23 161:2,20

162:7 168:9 170:2

170:8,16 171:12

174:16 175:8,18

177:8 178:24

181:4 183:7

189:10 190:7

192:1,17 194:16

195:15 197:18

198:24 199:23

200:5,20 203:14

204:6

rights 14:10 94:7

165:6 181:21,23

rise 119:11 155:19

rises 119:14

risk 178:18

RIVERA-SOTO

1:16

road 1:23 141:14

179:16

Robert 1:12 2:13

4:14 206:4,18

ROBERTO 1:16

ROBINSON 2:20

role 168:12

Roman 162:18

Rooker-Feldman

44:13,18,21

room 36:22 42:3

115:23 158:15

184:16

root 21:11

Roseland 2:12

Rosenblit 117:18

Roth 2:2,5 4:9,9

22:20,21 23:10,14

27:18,23 28:9,13

28:15,23 29:3

38:5,12,13,17,19

39:2 40:9,16,18

41:3 47:12,13

62:13,14,16,24

63:4,7 64:1,11

65:22 66:13 74:10

75:7 78:15,16,20

78:24 79:3 81:25

82:5,25 83:3,6,11

83:18,22 84:5,9

85:9,17,22 87:8

87:15,22 89:10,14

89:21 90:3 96:8

97:5,9,11,14,17

97:24 108:4,7,11

108:16,20,25

109:5,25 110:3,6

110:9 111:2,11,19

112:20,22 113:2,5

113:10,22 114:18

115:6 117:6,9,24

118:4,8,11,18

119:19,24 122:3,6

122:13,16,20,24

123:6,14,20 124:3

124:18,24 125:5

127:17 128:25

130:1,2,9,19

132:20,24 133:2,9

133:13 134:2,17

135:24 137:5

142:22 143:2,5,7

143:9,12,16,19

144:2,5,11,14

145:2,17 146:2,6

146:10,14 147:19

147:25 149:13

150:6 151:14,18

151:23 152:14

153:1,5,11,22

154:3,6,13,25

156:8,12,24

157:13 159:12

160:18,23 161:9

161:12,18,21

162:1,5,9 196:9

Roth's 63:22

Rothenberg 15:23

22:23 23:3,7,17

69:24 74:23,23,24

139:5 150:11

round 172:11

RPC 15:24 16:25

17:7

rubber 141:13

rule 7:24 17:5 53:18

53:20,25 54:1,4

54:18,21 60:9

80:1 89:20 92:16

103:15 104:10

107:3,23 112:21

115:24,25 118:25

125:10,14 131:7

173:7 192:25

197:19

ruled 10:14 55:12

191:3

rules 16:24 46:7

56:10 115:25

126:14 127:5

150:25 157:9

179:19

ruling 7:10 10:2

139:24 194:4,5

rulings 10:1 100:16

run 96:16

runs 178:19

Ryan 2:13 4:14,14

164:2 182:10,13

183:6 184:20

185:24 188:18,19

188:23 189:15

195:5,6,17 199:12

199:18,21,25

200:3,20 202:6

S

safe 99:24

sailed 33:23

sales 146:20

Samson 165:19

173:18 182:17,18

190:1

sanction 51:11

126:23 127:3

sanctioned 126:25

sanctions 72:25

126:6

satisfactory 127:4

satisfied 119:13

satisfy 58:21 65:1

73:19

sauce 8:18,18 59:21

59:21 116:12

save 6:22 75:9 123:9

160:2

saying 7:3 14:5

16:10 31:2,9

32:15 34:13 35:5

39:1 71:3 77:12

77:15 107:14

113:8 114:17

132:9 134:18

141:4,5 148:12

149:11 152:2,11

163:13 169:13

172:18 181:8

196:11 197:1

198:15

says 8:12,17,22

15:14 23:7 35:2

44:21 45:16 50:18

54:1,5 62:11

68:10 95:22

101:25 102:10

103:2 104:5

107:23 109:8

116:1 123:5

132:22 135:25

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C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 226

136:4 140:11

141:5,24 152:23

152:24 153:6,15

157:1 166:21

167:6 168:8

173:23 175:15

179:13 183:8

191:14 192:16

SBMT 87:25

scanned 20:5 25:22

29:11

scary 11:2

scenario 136:1

schedule 100:1

102:17

scheduling 6:25

102:17

scheme 77:9 130:13

school 77:4 141:15

141:19 195:15

Schultz 133:25

science 87:1

scientific 114:3

scope 60:5 61:12,13

80:4 139:25

scores 77:10

scoring 166:3

screening 168:14

scriveners 116:17

seal 46:14 164:13

190:3 193:3

200:17

sealing 190:1

199:22 200:5

search 25:23 90:24

90:24 113:17

133:22

searchable 20:5

29:13

searching 81:19

second 6:13 31:21

39:7 40:1 54:3

88:15 92:1 100:10

101:10,18,24

102:7 103:4,6,9

104:6,23 105:22

105:24 106:23

108:18 111:21

121:25 122:11

126:24 128:25

129:2,8,13 130:13

137:3 140:5 141:5

143:23 159:15

160:4 186:4

secondary 84:21

85:14,15 88:2,3

seconds 141:9

142:21

secret 7:15 8:23

37:14,16,17,18,20

37:21 54:6 65:13

91:18 164:14,15

165:1 195:25

196:11 201:17

see 10:5,12 15:5

22:6,9 40:6 52:3

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67:7,25 99:10

108:8,9,11 117:6

125:14,25 126:2

128:5 140:4

167:16 175:11

179:3 187:12

191:13 198:1

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seek 25:13 51:10

71:13 93:15 94:10

104:10 124:21

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seeking 71:1 101:11

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seeks 101:18 102:8

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seen 29:1 30:14

35:20 69:12 70:17

74:23 167:20

173:6 178:20,22

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select 139:3

selected 11:7 57:19

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self-evident 90:7

send 78:24 159:9

sending 201:3

senior 2:24 5:18

sense 84:2,12,13

126:8 174:18

sent 32:19 34:19

42:9 49:12 78:18

81:13 89:11 101:4

separate 18:2 43:25

145:18 164:7

separated 86:8

separately 43:24

Sergeant 133:24

serious 157:17

183:16

serve 103:24 149:21

served 115:9

serves 163:25

service 90:5,5,6,7,18

set 8:21 56:11 61:11

77:15 100:9,10,13

100:23 101:10,18

101:24 102:7,17

102:24 103:4,6,9

104:6,14,19

105:22,25 106:23

108:18 109:2

111:21 122:1,11

128:19,22,25

129:3,4,8,13,14

129:17 156:25

157:10 158:20

159:15 160:2,4

170:4,14 172:14

182:21 185:20

199:1 206:8

sets 100:7

settle 26:14 105:5

139:19 141:13

156:22

settled 33:17 39:20

46:23 98:12 147:9

187:20

settlement 6:15 10:3

10:13 20:3 34:9

44:11 45:12,22

46:1,9,14,18,21

46:24 47:3,8

85:13 91:12 92:3

92:9,13 94:25

95:19 105:1

settlements 45:20

46:2 66:7,10

67:13,13 69:15

91:6 94:20 95:12

138:5

settling 145:15

SEV 86:2

seven 42:19,21

73:14 104:20

184:22

shake 184:17

shaking 68:14

shame 147:13

shared 204:15

shaved 27:19 38:7

157:13

sheet 59:15

sheets 91:2

shields 149:13

shifted 112:13

ship 33:22 90:18,18

90:19,20,21,23

shipped 90:22

shoes 84:13

short 20:25 79:2

100:20 121:2

shortcoming 186:12

shortcut 190:8

shortly 41:10

shot 36:24 75:23

76:9,14 181:18

193:16

show 9:15 22:24

85:6 152:7 156:20

showing 29:24,25

30:2 31:19 35:13

187:21

shown 18:17,22,23

side 26:13,18 28:2

36:18 55:3 72:12

73:24,25 95:2

120:4 137:11

155:25 174:15,16

177:22 199:4

203:11

side's 73:16

sideshow 47:24

sign 159:6,7,8

signed 203:17

significant 11:14

19:1

signing 161:1,13

silence 74:13

silica 64:10

similar 11:23 86:20

93:15 140:18

144:22

simple 18:22 115:21

190:10

simply 12:16 18:12

18:15 47:15 51:13

183:12

single 18:5 20:5

104:24 198:25

203:20,25

single-space 162:19

Single-spaced

162:23

sink 126:22

sir 82:25 83:11 84:9

108:16

sit 42:14 74:12

119:24 133:24

160:14

site 90:9

sitting 75:1 156:11

situation 117:16,19

six 58:17 61:4 70:10

106:25 109:22

110:16,23 138:2

138:25 139:6

140:9 150:7

184:22

skilled 156:19

slash 141:12

slew 158:7

slightly 139:16

slippery 93:3

slope 93:3

slower 86:6

slowly 83:9

small 40:21

smaller 162:15

smart 121:22

smiling 110:10

smoked 88:25

smoking 21:14 89:2

89:3

social 6:22

software 11:23

13:12

sold 21:18

solely 186:12

somebody 15:12

21:2 23:21 39:21

47:6 57:9 84:13

88:25 136:7 137:5

141:6 144:9

160:22,24 167:5

179:1 183:23

somebody's 62:14

158:3 166:23

177:18

something's 200:17

soon 136:16 161:24

sorry 5:15 17:11

34:22 42:23 52:24

63:4 80:21 82:7

84:23 99:9 113:22

118:7 122:3 129:7

146:6 147:11

178:3 181:7 187:2

194:18

sort 13:14 24:10,14

49:3 55:13 58:5

70:8 71:2 166:8

172:19 200:13

sorts 71:20 112:9,9

sought 19:25 101:21

104:5 113:11,18

113:24 114:9,15

soul 198:10

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48262
USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 227

source 32:22 38:23

39:14 48:21 49:1

49:4,9,12 152:18

154:21 199:7

sources 8:13 30:16

38:11

Southern 3:10

Spahr 1:11,14

speak 27:20,22

47:23 48:10 74:6

79:12 106:19

114:7 143:5

speaking 138:2

speaks 64:4

special 1:17 4:1,20

4:25 5:4,7,10,15

5:19 9:6,17 11:16

12:3,17,22 13:3

13:17,23 14:1,4

14:11 16:1,9,12

17:4,11,14,16

18:7,16,21 19:12

20:24 21:6,8 22:9

23:1,11,21 24:3,5

24:9,13,17,23

25:6,18 26:4,10

27:3,8 28:7,10,14

28:19,22 29:2,19

30:1,6,9,18 31:9

31:16 32:4,7,14

33:2,4,6,9,14 34:4

35:15,19 37:10,15

37:24 38:3,7,14

38:25 39:18 40:14

40:17,20 41:9

43:3,17,21 44:6

44:14 46:17,20

47:1,4,10,18,25

48:4,14 49:2,10

49:20,23 50:2,7

50:10,13,16,24

51:7,22 52:4,9,11

52:15,23 54:21

55:2,6,15,18 56:5

56:17 57:12,15

58:10,16,24 59:4

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60:12 61:8,25

62:4,6,11,14 63:2

63:5,10,19,23

64:3 65:8 67:15

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70:22 71:9,23

74:8,19 75:13,16

75:19 76:1,5,16

76:22,25 77:3,21

77:25 78:9,23

79:1,15 80:12,21

81:4,14,17,23

82:3,23 83:1,4,7

83:14,21,25 84:6

84:10,23 85:2,7

85:11,20,24 86:24

87:3,10,16,24

88:8,11,17 89:6

89:12,18 90:1,4

91:7 93:5,17,21

93:24 94:14 95:4

95:24 97:3,6,13

97:16,19 98:1

99:13,17,19,22

100:2,7 101:5,8

106:1,5,13 107:24

108:2,5,9,14,17

108:23 109:1,6

110:2,5,7,14

111:10,13,20

112:18,24 113:3,8

113:20 114:16,22

115:13,17,20

117:5,23 118:2,6

118:10,13 119:2

119:21 120:2

121:21 122:4,9,15

122:18,21 123:4,7

123:10,13,19,22

124:10,16,23

125:3,6 127:22

129:2,7,12,20,24

130:3,18 132:16

132:21 133:4,12

133:14 134:13

136:11 137:1,9,12

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138:6,11,16,21

139:5,12 140:14

140:17 141:1,8,11

141:18,21 142:5

142:20,25 143:5,7

143:11,14,18,25

144:3,8,13 145:9

146:5,8,11 147:16

147:21 148:3

149:18 150:2

151:6,10,17,19

152:17 153:4,9,20

153:23 154:4,9,19

154:23 155:1

156:10,13 157:11

157:15 159:14

160:16,21 161:2,6

161:11,16,20,23

162:2,7,10 163:2

163:5,16 165:8

167:22 168:5,19

168:20,25 169:4

169:10,13,18,21

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171:1,8,11,15,20

171:25 172:18,24

173:1,4,9,13,16

174:4,6,11,19

175:2,8,22 176:1

176:9,13,22 177:6

177:11,16,21

178:25 179:6,9,20

179:25 180:3,8,14

182:1,5,8 183:5

183:22,23 184:1

185:23 187:4,8

188:9,17,20,23

189:8,14,16,19

190:5,9,18 191:11

191:17,21,24

192:7,10,21 193:4

193:7,10,15,20

194:7,10,14,19

195:2,5,14,18,24

196:3,6,17,23

197:3,7,10,20

198:12,18 199:17

199:20,24 200:11

200:21 202:7,12

202:16 203:19,24

204:11,19 205:1,9

specific 6:10 58:6

152:20 165:10,22

specifically 73:16

79:6 92:17 147:2

164:25

specifics 30:11

spend 14:12 100:22

159:20

spoke 29:4 133:5

spoken 29:3

spoliating 119:20

spoliation 119:14,17

121:17

spot 62:15,17

spouse 131:11

spouting 136:8

spreadsheet 11:18

12:2,5,23,24

13:14 18:13,15,23

51:23 79:23

Square 2:3

staff 202:22 203:5,6

stages 66:9

stake 19:8 154:12

stand 87:7 136:14

standard 119:14,17

120:18 125:15

179:12,13 180:12

181:21,24 188:4,5

188:8,11 189:4

standards 85:5

standing 84:13

standpoint 199:22

stark 128:6

start 6:4,6 19:17,19

72:24 77:17 86:4

90:6 95:21 149:5

180:7 189:6 198:6

198:20 199:5

started 84:19 89:1

90:11,14,17

starting 4:4

state 31:13 44:20

66:22 85:8 90:11

92:22 103:23

121:14 127:14

165:8,9 166:17

173:17

stated 165:17

statement 70:6

statements 98:9,15

states 1:1 20:21

98:4 100:14

101:11

stating 164:14

statute 7:8 66:15

stay 158:15 179:2,7

203:14

stayed 157:16

stead 133:20

Steinmetz 29:8

stenographic 1:10

206:6

step 169:15 176:7

185:10 194:3

steps 145:23

stick 68:22 120:20

Stokes 1:23

stole 59:24

stone 43:8 77:16

stop 17:14 112:18

120:7 157:12

168:20 175:22

stopped 89:2,3

196:24

story 77:20

straighten 24:17

25:8

strangely 159:11

strategized 181:16

Street 1:11 2:3,8 3:3

3:6

strong 41:13

strongly 27:13

stuck 19:23

studies 114:4

stuff 56:18 120:7

148:13 156:2

170:1,10 201:25

sub 132:2

subject 7:24 8:6

46:15 53:18 54:17

68:1 69:15 70:16

83:18 89:20 92:9

92:16 93:18 101:3

173:17

submission 8:22

67:2 129:9 164:7

164:13 165:11,12

165:20 167:8

170:17 171:13,23

172:3 176:2,23,25

185:12 190:13,14

190:15

submissions 5:23

67:1 195:10 200:8

submit 19:1 22:5

77:9 110:12 124:4

159:6 164:9

165:23 169:24

177:4 178:17

185:10 191:5

193:11 194:22

198:23 199:19

submits 167:7

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24:14 53:13 88:1

100:19 143:4

subpoena 55:8

149:18

subsequent 100:15

subset 13:15

substance 96:6

159:2,10 183:15

183:16

substantive 22:14

105:9 139:22

145:13 187:18,25

substitute 131:13

161:14

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USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

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substituted 131:12

160:10,11,24

substitution 105:15

160:17 161:24

subtext 71:3

success 130:12

successor 113:17

sued 20:19 43:24

81:11

suffered 98:13

suffers 147:25

sufficient 25:10

103:7

suggesting 76:15

96:17

suggestion 74:4

suggests 104:15

165:7

Suite 1:15,23 2:3

summaries 56:9

summarized 57:6

105:19

summary 10:15

48:20 56:10,12,13

56:14 121:16

Sunday 165:15

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superb 27:9

supplement 100:15

supplemental

143:12

supplemental/ame...

104:19

supplemented

104:16

supplied 21:25

support 32:11 36:17

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147:4,5 196:16

supported 15:22,24

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Suppose 15:12

supposed 41:11,17

80:14 107:5

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supposedly 64:18

71:14 136:5

140:23

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202:8,19,20 204:2

sur-reply 180:16,24

189:11 191:15,24

192:3

sure 5:17 17:15 21:9

23:12 27:23 43:17

47:18 55:1 65:23

76:22 79:20,22

80:3 94:14 102:14

111:14 116:20

120:16 129:3

151:20 152:10

164:5 173:19

180:3 184:15

188:17 198:18

199:12

surprise 34:14

76:20 81:10 98:25

surprised 157:1

159:3 203:11

surrogate 160:25

161:3

Surrogate's 161:6

survive 30:17

surviving 131:11

sustained 98:5

SVC 86:2

swamp 120:10,13

120:14

swords 149:12

sympathetic 77:22

synthesis 17:25 18:3

system 157:23

T

T 2:22

tact 166:14

tainted 32:18,22,23

38:24 39:4,11,14

39:15

take 10:17 12:23

22:4,5 27:10

30:12 37:3 41:14

43:7 47:4 59:12

66:8 76:9 79:2

83:8 86:6 100:3

118:16 128:18,21

131:25 136:14

151:7 157:3

162:22 171:4

175:6,7 189:16

191:15 198:9

203:8

taken 1:11 20:13

29:6 93:13 118:20

206:7

takes 77:20 152:19

187:12 200:13

talc 68:25 69:3 88:9

88:10,19,20,20,22

97:12,25 98:5,5,9

98:9,11,11,15,15

112:10 123:16

132:9 146:21,24

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tales 195:15

talk 29:12 31:21

64:20 65:3 80:7

111:22 142:17

151:14 188:15,18

188:24 189:12,14

204:6

talked 22:12 96:19

147:25 165:24

176:15

talking 22:14,15,16

22:22 23:12 25:21

25:22 27:25 28:11

50:14 60:22 71:22

93:19 100:23

103:9 113:6

133:10 144:25

145:4,5,14 159:2

187:15

TATE 1:22,22

teacher 119:4

technical 156:9

teed 36:18 185:18

telephone 82:10

184:16

TELEPHONIC

2:19 3:1

tell 11:16 23:22 33:3

38:18 40:20 41:22

42:1 43:21 56:5

56:25 71:6 72:17

72:22 77:18 79:6

79:9 80:19 81:1

82:4 83:1 94:1

105:16 112:20

116:19 121:3,18

124:5 125:21,24

128:7,13 129:13

132:5 155:10

157:16 158:6

166:8 177:8

178:24 184:25

188:2 191:11

192:1 195:14

198:4

telling 12:22 20:25

70:5 87:1 116:9

120:22 140:22

156:21 176:7

181:4

tells 179:1

template 166:17

tendered 136:17

tension 135:19

term 49:11 109:19

109:20 161:7

164:14 165:2

195:25

terms 13:4,24 23:17

26:14 39:13 68:8

169:2 188:12

191:13

terrible 25:8

territories 98:4

test 32:24 75:23

86:1,13 123:23

136:7

testify 133:3 134:9

136:19

testifying 57:9

136:12

testimony 111:6

146:23

thank 5:1,5,6 30:5

40:16 48:19 52:23

68:19 81:4 94:11

99:18,23 100:5

123:13 159:14

162:9 198:11

199:10 202:6

205:5

Thanks 99:25

theme 59:20 60:1

theory 107:12,17

thereof 165:22

thing 26:12 44:17

53:3 59:6 80:11

90:16,17,20 93:3

96:23 102:4

105:20 122:25

128:18 140:4

142:14 152:24

153:12 157:10

160:19 163:11

171:9,11,22

193:10,23 195:6

204:1,20

things 6:10 9:1

26:17 28:5 31:15

32:12 65:4 68:3

68:17 77:15 78:16

82:1,15 107:5

115:11 125:7

142:17 168:16

170:21,21 174:18

199:6

think 8:25 9:9,23,24

10:15,19 13:8

17:1,2,6 22:1,7,17

22:21 23:14 24:21

25:6,9 26:5 27:21

30:1 35:15 36:10

37:17 39:12 52:13

52:16,17 53:21

55:2 58:22 59:22

60:2,10,17,18,20

60:24 63:14 64:21

66:7,9 69:4 70:19

71:5 76:13 77:14

78:9 79:13 88:16

88:18 89:16 94:9

94:15,22 95:9,17

96:22 100:25

103:3 105:18

106:1,20 107:20

108:5 110:1 117:1

120:1,17,18,19,24

123:2 125:10,11

126:8 127:3

128:24 135:23

137:23 138:17,17

139:15 142:15

144:5 154:9,24

155:21,22 156:22

159:19 162:10

166:2,9 168:4

169:2,6,18 172:7

172:7 176:4 177:2

177:7,13 181:24

182:14 184:12,19

185:1,3,5,13,19

185:21 186:1,5,17

187:15,19 188:6

188:14 190:11,19

190:21,23,25

191:5,8 192:19,24

194:8,12,15

200:25 201:19

202:10,18

thinking 96:21

thinks 189:4

third 2:15 33:22

40:1,11 44:22

45:8,18 57:22

65:7,11 67:2 77:5

94:20 101:14

102:5 104:25

175:14 176:16,16

176:17 179:12,13

181:12,19 182:22

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USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 229

185:8 188:8,10

191:2 192:15

Thomas 2:17

thorough 22:8

thought 11:2 22:11

28:25 43:16 44:24

50:24 69:25 70:5

97:19 98:2 102:14

113:22 124:14

129:14 171:6

172:4 174:7 176:4

177:5 185:1

198:16

thoughts 13:21

thousand 118:14

172:8 193:21

thousands 39:20,23

121:5

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39:22 48:12,15

60:23 61:18 64:13

64:14,14,20 65:3

67:12 71:15 75:9

79:8,25 80:6

81:11 91:8,14

106:19,20 115:9

129:5 180:1

190:11 194:21

199:1

threshold 164:18

throw 35:23 45:4

118:6 126:21

throwing 117:25

thrown 108:6

thumb 125:10

thunder 59:24

Tick-tock 141:11

tie 152:20

tights 118:11

time 11:1 14:12 15:3

16:6,15 22:11

31:14 41:14 43:1

43:22 50:19,25

60:12 64:17 72:12

72:17 76:3 80:9

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102:13 106:12

116:18 124:22

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159:20 167:8

176:11,20 181:11

186:14 190:14

192:3 196:21

197:18 204:7

206:7

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timely 55:7

times 48:22 60:7

162:18 168:18

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165:24

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tires 177:5

tit-for-tat 120:7

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today 9:2 13:18

16:16 41:11,16,23

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76:11,11 91:9

98:25 102:14,15

105:25 160:14

163:14,15,16,17

163:18 166:6

177:2,13 185:4,5

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trade 7:15 8:23

37:14,15,17,18,20

37:21 54:6 65:13

91:18

training 90:8,9,10

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27:16 89:22 206:6

transcripts 115:12

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transmitted 155:25

transom 202:1

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treat 159:4

treatment 118:15

193:21

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111:6 121:8

132:19,22 136:12

136:13 165:5

tricky 166:12

tried 65:5 94:6

112:1 121:3

122:18

tries 168:7

trifocals 162:21

triggered 163:12

164:11

trip 99:24

trouble 162:11,18

191:1

troubled 186:10

troubling 184:14

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65:18 67:25 97:9

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120:14 149:12

150:23 158:1

188:3,22 189:1

194:19

turn 15:21 16:22

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100:7 102:15

106:6,7 111:18

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90:11,12,12,13,13

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90:25,25 94:20

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24:7 26:4 27:12

27:14 28:19 30:18

32:15 36:9,11

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93:6 94:5 120:9

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usual 75:6

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USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 230

utmost 184:7

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v 192:16

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USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 231

worker's 85:13

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4 101:24 102:17

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8 102:7 103:14

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800 1:24 2:15

80s 118:20

Case 2:11-cv-01754-BRM-AME Document 621-11 Filed 07/23/20 Page 232 of 233 PageID:

48267
USDC, District of NJ Williams, et al. v. BASF Catalysts, LLC, et al. Monday

C.A. No. 2:11-cv-01754-JLL-JAD Oral Argument January 15, 2018

520 Stokes Road, Suite C-1, Medford, NJ 08055

(856) 983-8484 Tate & Tate, Inc. (800) 636-8283

Page 232

856 1:24

9

9 143:17

90 70:12

90s 45:2

983-8484 1:24

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