Hearing April 12, 2017

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10 NATIONAL INDIAN GAMING COMMISSION 

11 PUBLIC CONSULTATION

12 TAKEN ON 

13 WEDNESDAY, APRIL 12, 2017 

14 SAN DIEGO CONVENTION CENTER, ROOM 25

15 111 WEST HARBOR DRIVE

16 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA 92101

17 DAY 1

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24 Reported by: Kimberly S. Hanna 

CSR No. 12230

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 INDEX

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3 I. Welcoming and Opening prayer/Blessing

4 II. Introduction of Commission and brief

5 III. Introduction of NIGC Staff and Tribal

Leadership representatives

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IV. Discussed format for the consultation

7 Questions and comments

8 V. Opening Statements for those who cannot stay

for entire consultation

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VI. Housekeeping Items

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VII. Topic Order: 25C.F.R. Part 547Grandfathered 

11 Class II Gaming System

12 VIII. Closing

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 12, 2017 

2 AT 10:30 O'CLOCK A.M. 

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5 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: Thank you all for being 

6 here. I appreciate everybody's flexibility. We 

7 definitely want to accommodate. Thankfully, Ms. Devon 

8 Lomayesva has agreed to open us up. 

9 Thank you, very much, very much. 

10 DEVON LOMAYESVA: Hello everyone. How are 

11 you? I absolutely would defer to any elders from the 

12 Kumaya Nations because that the territory we are in 

13 today. Seeing that no one is here, I will very humbly 

14 accept this. My name is Devon Lomayesva. I'm a member 

15 of the Saint Isabella tribe here in San Diego. I am 

16 here on behalf of Soboba band. As we enter this 

17 meeting, I hope we have good participation, welcome 

18 everyone's thoughts in a good way, and that as we go 

19 through, keep that open mind for positive outcomes for 

20 our communities and the tribes that we serve. 

21 And, with that, once again, good blessings and 

22 travels to everyone that is attending the conference. 

23 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: Thank you so much. 

24 Good morning. And thank you to everyone who 

25 is taking the time to be here. We are here to discuss 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 some important issues affecting a very sizable segment 

2 of the Indian gaming industry. 

3 Although the issues we are here to discuss 

4 today are pretty narrow in terms of their regulatory 

5 scope, we recognize the profound impact that these 

6 discussions may have on real lives on the ground. So, 

7 with that in mind, thank you so much for taking the time 

8 to be here. 

9 My name is, Jonodev Chaudhuri. I'm a proud 

10 member of Mississippi Creek Nation. I am also proud to 

11 be Indian on my father's side from India. And, again, I 

12 thank you Ms. Lomayesva for opening up today's 

13 consultation because, really, we are here in the spirit 

14 of true communications. 

15 So I am going to turn it over to my fellow 

16 Commissioners. We have the full Commission here today. 

17 Before moving forward with some housekeeping items that 

18 then will frame our discussions here today. 

19 But I'll turn it over to Vice Chair, Ms. 

20 Kathryn Isom-Claus. Introduce yourself and talk a 

21 little about the about Consultation. 

22 KATHRYN ISOM-CLAUS: Good morning. I am 

23 Kathryn Isom-Claus. I am Vice Chair of the Commission. 

24 I would like to thank you all for being here with us 

25 today. I appreciate you for being committed to the 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 topic and bringing your thoughts and spending time with 

2 us. 

3 We are here today to honor the 

4 government-to-government relationship between the 

5 Federal Government and Tribal Governments. 

6 As partners in gaming regulations, Tribal 

7 voices are essential to our work. The ongoing dialogue 

8 is one of the most important tools that we have for 

9 building a strong policy and regulation in NIGC. 

10 We are here at today's discussion with an open 

11 mind. And I would like to thank you all for comments we 

12 are going to adhere to. And, with that, I'll turn it 

13 over to Commissioner Simermeyer. 

14 SEQUOYAH SIMERMEYER: Good morning. I want to 

15 join my colleagues in thanking everyone for being here. 

16 My name is Sequoyah Simermeyer. I am with the Coharie 

17 Indian tribe, Northern Carolina. I am Associate 

18 Commissioner for NIGC. I join my colleagues also in 

19 having appreciation for the Consultation process and 

20 time and everything that goes into the Tribal side and 

21 Federal side as well. 

22 I think, in my experience, that Consultation 

23 serves really positive purposes. One is, it helps to 

24 verify and maintain government to government 

25 relationship, which is unique to tribes and government. 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 It also provides an opportunity for us to make 

2 more informed decisions at a Federal level to better 

3 serve the people that we are charged to serve. 

4 I also think that it provides a platform for 

5 Tribal leadership to communicate their vision for how 

6 they are serving their citizens in their leadership 

7 role, and how we, as Federal partners, should help them. 

8 So I want to thank everyone for their time and I look 

9 forward to their comments that we will have today. 

10 Thank you. 

11 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: Thank you, Commissioner. 

12 Thank you Vice Chair. So as we begin our NIGC Tribal 

13 Nations Consultation, let me just set out some 

14 structural ideas. We always try to recognize our former 

15 colleagues, NIGC alumni. And we have Dan Little at the 

16 end of the room here today, who is a former 

17 Commissioner. 

18 I just want to say, you know, save the best 

19 for last. You know, so we have Dan Little here, former 

20 Commissioner as well as Ms. Liz Homer, former Vice 

21 Chair. Am I missing anybody? 

22 But we thank you for your past service and 

23 your past service at NIGC and your continued service to 

24 the Indian Gaming Industry. 

25 So with that, introductions are an important 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 part of this process. Let me talk about what we are 

2 going to do with your comments. 

3 We have a transcriber here with us. At the 

4 end of today's consultation, all comments will be 

5 transcribed and ultimately available for public review. 

6 But introductions are beneficial because we 

7 all have much to learn from each other. And so knowing 

8 who is in the room together is just as important as any 

9 of the dialogs between Tribal Nations and NIGC. 

10 I have heard many times that some of the best 

11 parts of these Consultations are the cross-conversations 

12 that occur. 

13 So we always start off with introductions. We 

14 will do that in a moment. We are scheduled to go until 

15 12:30 today. I, again, thank everyone for their 

16 flexibility in starting a little late. We did want to 

17 accommodate the organization who scheduled this 

18 consultation in conjunction with NIGA's schedule. 

19 But, if we finish early, there's is no crime 

20 in finishing early. We want to make sure that everybody 

21 has a true and fair opportunity to present their 

22 thoughts. 

23 With that in mind, we recognize that these are 

24 ongoing evolving discussions. So if in five minutes 

25 after we finish, you have an additional comment that you 

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1 want to provide, we want to assure everybody that there 

2 will be ample opportunities to provide additional 

3 comments. 

4 We have upcoming consultations that additional 

5 comments can be made in person at. And those upcoming 

6 consultations are, first and foremost, here tomorrow, 

7 from 8:30 to 12:30, in the same room. 

8 And those consultations cover a wide array of 

9 topics. Next week, April 20th, we have a consultation 

10 in Billings, Montana, 1:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m. Details 

11 are on the website. nigcnet.gov. May 4th, we have a 

12 consultation in Biloxi, Mississippi. 

13 And the week of May 23rd, at a date and time 

14 to be determined, we will be hosting a consultation in 

15 conjunction with the affiliated tribes, Northwest 

16 Indians Annual Conference. 

17 So there are multiple opportunities to present 

18 comments in person. Beyond that, there are always 

19 opportunities to submit comments in writing. 

20 And these are, as I mentioned, evolving 

21 comment periods. At the end of June, we will be 

22 compiling all comments that are received for further 

23 consideration. 

24 But I want to assure you that we are listening 

25 as we go along and trying to work with all voices in 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 this discussion to continually review positive measures. 

2 And so that's especially true with regard to 

3 the Grandfathering Privileges of CLASS II. And so we 

4 welcome that ongoing dialog. 

5 So, one final point: This is a 

6 Nation-to-Nation consultation. So our Consultation is 

7 really between NIGC and Tribal Nations and regulatory 

8 bodies or their designees. 

9 If you're not a Tribal Nation Representative, 

10 or a regulator, please inform us who has designated you 

11 to speak for the nation. 

12 If we have heard all comments and concerns 

13 from Tribal Representatives, we would welcome any 

14 additional comments from other interested parties. 

15 But this is, first and foremost, a Tribal 

16 Nation Consultation. And so if there's any objections 

17 or concerns raised by the Tribal Leadership regarding 

18 any non Tribal representative in the room, we will be 

19 sensitive to that. And we will discuss clearing the 

20 room. 

21 That said, this is a closed session. Even 

22 though the discussion here today will be transcribed, 

23 for public review, media Not part of this consultation. 

24 We do want people to feel free to engage in open and 

25 meaningful dialog. So this is a closed session. 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 So with that, we have a number of subject 

2 matter experts with us today, who will discuss the topic 

3 of consultation in more detail. I'll let them introduce 

4 themselves in their own fashion. 

5 But maybe we could just go around the room. 

6 We are heavily represented by NIGC staff here today. 

7 But that is by design. We do value our day-to-day 

8 outreach with our partners. 

9 And so we will just go around the room and get 

10 to know each other a little bit better. So maybe we 

11 will start with our General Counsel. 

12 MICHAEL HOENIG: Good morning everybody. I am 

13 Michael Hoenig. I am General Counsel for NIGC. And I 

14 am happy to be here today. 

15 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: And I'm sorry. I should 

16 have added, because this is transcribed, please state 

17 the nation or organization you represent. 

18 And if your name, like mine, has a lot of 

19 syllables in it, please feel free to spell your name for 

20 the benefit of the transcriptionist. 

21 TRAVIS WALDO: Good morning everyone. I am 

22 Travis Waldo, Director of Technology for NIGC. 

23 FRANK HERNANDEZ: Good morning. Frank 

24 Hernandez, NIGC, Sacramento Region, Temecula. 

25 MICHAEL RUST: Good morning. Mike Rust from 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 San Manuel Band Mission. 

2 EDWINA BUTLER WOLFE: Good morning everyone. 

3 Edwina Butler -- Edwina Butler Wolfe, Governor of the 

4 Absentee Shawnee Tribe. 

5 LESLIE TANYAN: Hi. I'm Leslie Tanyan. 

6 Absentee Shawnee Gaming Commission, Executive Director. 

7 KELLY SWITCH: Good morning everybody. My 

8 name is Kelly Switch from Absentee Shawnee Gaming 

9 Commission. Commissioner of Absentee Shawnee. 

10 CELESTE HUGHES: Good morning everybody. 

11 Celeste Hughes, representing Soboba Band. Gaming 

12 Commission Chair. 

13 DEVON LOMAYESVA: Good morning.

14 Devon Lomayesva, Tribal attorney with the Soboba Band. 

15 FEMALE SPEAKER: Good morning. (Inaudible)

16 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible) 

17 ELIZABETH HOMER: Elizabeth Homer. I am 

18 principal attorney for Charter. 

19 BARBARA COLLIER: Good morning.

20 Barbara Collier, the Executive Director of the Quapaw 

21 Tribal Gaming Agency, Quapaw Tribal member from 

22 Oklahoma. 

23 NANCY GREEN: Good morning. I'm Nancy Green, 

24 here on behalf of the Senequot Bay Nation.

25 KERRY HOLTON: Good morning. I'm

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1 Kerry Holton, President of the Delaware Nation. 

2 KENNETH ERMATINGER: Good morning. Kenneth 

3 Ermatinger. I'm Executive Director of the Sault Ste. 

4 Marie Tribe. 

5 SHEILA MORAGO: Good morning. Sheila Morago. 

6 Executive Director of Oklahoma Gaming Association.

7 MATTHEW MORGAN: Matthew Moragan, Director of 

8 Gaming Affairs for Chickasaw Nation. And I also served 

9 as Chairperson for NIGA subcommittee. 

10 SHAWN HOUSTON: I.T. Auditor at NIGC. 

11 LAEL ECHO-HAWK: I'm Lael Echo-Hawk.

12 DANIEL LITTLE: Vice President of relations. 

13 KEVEN BUNTROCK: Keven Buntrock. (Inaudible). 

14 JOSH BENEFIL: With the NIGC Office of Audits. 

15 STEVE BREWER: Steve Brewer Manager of 

16 National Indian Gaming Commission.

17 WILLIAM WALKER: William Walker, here with 

18 Absentee Shawnee Gaming Commission.

19 TOM CUNNINGHAM: Tom Cunningham (Inaudible)

20 BADGER AUSTIN: Badger Austin. Staff attorney 

21 for NIGC.

22 STEVE BREWER: Good morning, Compliance Officer 

23 for gaming commission.

24 DUSTIN THOMAS: Good morning. Dustin Thomas, 

25 Assistant director of Compliance NIGC.

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 TRACI SANTILLANES: Traci Santillanes, Audit 

2 Manager, NIGC. And member of tribes Idaho.

3 LISA DECOTEAU: Lisa Decoteau representing the 

4 United Gaming Commission. 

5 YVONEE LEE: Yvonne Lee, Director of Finance 

6 of NIGC. 

7 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: Okay. I think that's 

8 everybody. Eric and his team here in the Sacramento 

9 region, as well as folks that help set up this 

10 consultation, many of the folks from the agency here 

11 today have been actively involved in trainings this 

12 week. 

13 We have been doing quite a few trainings in 

14 conjunction with NIGA. And I thank you for that. Most 

15 importantly, many thanks for Kumeyaay people for 

16 allowing us into their territory. Many, many thanks. 

17 I have started to notice a trend. There is a 

18 person here named Ms. Echo-Hawk, who likes to make a 

19 fashionably late appearance after we introduce all NIGC 

20 alumni so she gets her own introduction. 

21 We do recognize that. And we appreciate that 

22 opportunity to honor you individually. So an 

23 additional, alumnus, Ms. Echo-Hawk, former counselor to 

24 the Chair. We want to thank her for her prior service. 

25 So with that, we will begin the Consultation. 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 For the subject matter background, we have our first 

2 Director of our Technology Division, Mr. Travis Waldo 

3 here, to talk a little bit about what we are here to 

4 consult on today. Mr. Waldo. 

5 TRAVIS WALDO: Thank you, Chairman. 

6 Again, my name is Travis Waldo. I'm Director 

7 of Technology for the National Indian Gaming Commission. 

8 Our subject for today is Grandfathered Class II Gaming 

9 Systems. 

10 The NIGC has an ongoing commitment with Tribal 

11 Leadership and Tribal Regulatory Partners to balance a 

12 reasonable regulation of Indian gaming with the need to 

13 avoid unnecessary or artificial road blocks to impede on 

14 the development. 

15 The Sunset Provision for the Grandfather Class 

16 II Gaming Systems is an opportunity for all of us to 

17 understand where the Grandfathered Systems pose 

18 potential risk in the integrity of Indian Gaming and 

19 consult on an appropriate solution if needed. 

20 The development of Class II Minimum Technical 

21 Standards began in 2004 as a collaborative effort 

22 between the National Indian Gaming Commission, tribes, 

23 and manufacturers to mitigate certain risks that need to 

24 exist in the ever advancing Class II gaming system 

25 technology. 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 The NIGC initially implemented the technical 

2 standards In 2008. The technical standards require that 

3 before the Class II Gaming Systems may be placed on the 

4 floor and offered to the public for play, it must be 

5 submitted to an independent game laboratory, which would 

6 test the system against the technical standards. 

7 It was recognized by tribes in the industry 

8 and NIGC that the implementation of technical standards 

9 would come at a financial cost to gaming industry and to 

10 tribes. 

11 A particular concern, however, was the 

12 potential financial burden on bringing gaming systems 

13 that had already been manufactured and were put into 

14 play and compliant with applicable law in absence of 

15 technical standards into compliance with the new the 

16 2008 rule. 

17 Thus, to reduce that cost, the NIGC provided 

18 an that gaming systems manufactured prior to the 

19 issuance of standards of 2008 could be certified to an 

20 alternate minimum standard as Grandfathered systems. 

21 To be offered for play as a Grandfathered 

22 system, the Tribal Gaming Regulatory Authority is 

23 required to submit the pre 2008 system to a testing 

24 laboratory for certification within a 120 day window 

25 after the 2008 technical standards were issued. 

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1 All systems manufactured after 2008 would be 

2 required to meet full technical standards. 

3 Grandfathered systems would be permitted to be continued 

4 to be offered to play during the five-year Grandfathered 

5 period. 

6 By 2013, all Grandfathered systems would be 

7 required to be removed from operation. It was thought 

8 at the time that the national market for system cause 

9 the fully compliant systems to replace the old 

10 Grandfathered systems and that the looming sunset of the 

11 grandfather period would otherwise (inaudible) the 

12 industry to transition to fully compliant systems. 

13 Technical standards further provide the 

14 Grandfathered systems to be modified to become fully 

15 compliant with those standards, and thus be removed from 

16 grandfather status and continue to operate after 2013. 

17 By 2012, however, it was clear that the 

18 industry would be unable to bring all Class II Gaming 

19 Systems into full compliance of technical standards. 

20 Through consultation with its tribal partners, the NIGC 

21 extended the grandfather period an additional five years 

22 to November 10, 2018. 

23 In July of 2016, recognizing that the NIGC 

24 tribal regulators would again have to deal with this 

25 issue, in keeping with our efforts to ensure gaming 

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1 integrity, while avoiding unnecessary road blocks to 

2 tribal economic development, the NIGC proactively 

3 reached out to tribes to gather input and information. 

4 Also, NIGC staff from it's Office of General 

5 Counsel and Technology Division have been working with 

6 NIGA sub committee on grandfathering issue as well. 

7 If we look at the technical standards, you can 

8 see that only 12 of the total 56 technical standards for 

9 547 are required to be tested in order for a game to be 

10 a Grandfathered system. 

11 In addition to the technical standards provide 

12 that modifications to grandfather systems, such as 

13 replacing a component, are not required to meet fully 

14 compliant system standards so long as the modification 

15 maintains or advances the grandfather's overall 

16 compliance. 

17 I want to focus our risk analysis on 44 

18 technical standards that are not included as part of the 

19 Grandfathered system. 

20 A Grandfathered system that was manufactured 

21 before 2008 that remains in play today has had many of 

22 its original components replaced with components 

23 manufactured after 2008. 

24 These new components were likely designed to 

25 meet fully compliant system standards, but are not 

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1 required to be tested as such because they resolve into 

2 the Grandfathered system. 

3 Of the 44 technical standards that are not 

4 included as part of the Grandfathered system, what is 

5 still outstanding and what risks, if any, remains to 

6 those outstanding areas. 

7 The NIGC is interested in consulting on this 

8 topic, including, but not limited to obtaining 1) any 

9 information related to the steps tribes take to comply 

10 with the Grandfathered provision and any difficulties in 

11 implementing those provisions; and 2) What risks, if 

12 any, the Grandfather games may pose to gaming operation 

13 and the gaming public; and, finally, (3) How those risks 

14 may be mitigated by means other than part 547. 

15 Thank you. 

16 JONOVDEV CHAUDHURI: Thank you, Mr. Waldo. 

17 It's an important point that was made that our 

18 approach to the consultation is really looking to 

19 discuss potential solutions in keeping with one of our 

20 founding principles, and that is certain adherence to 

21 regulatory responsibilities, while not unnecessarily 

22 inhibiting the intrapleural spirit of tribes. 

23 So I know many folks in this room working 

24 quite hard on compiling information about potential 

25 solutions. And I thank you for that work. 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 We have Mr. Schalansky with the microphone 

2 here. We don't have any time constraints on comments. 

3 But I trust that we will all be respectful of each 

4 other's times. That said, we will move forward to 

5 formal comment period. 

6 This is a two-way dialogue. We are here to 

7 address questions as well, if we can. If not, we are 

8 always happy to go back and see how we can best provide 

9 the information that is requested. 

10 So with that, the floor is yours. And

11 Mr. Schalansky will work the field in questions, or 

12 comments. And I also would like to thank Ms. Echo-hawk 

13 for her prior service to NIGC. Thank you. 

14 MATTHEW MORGAN: Matthew Morgan, Chickasaw 

15 nation, here on behalf of National Gaming Association, 

16 sub committee on Tribal Authority, Tribal Leadership. 

17 Department of Commerce. 

18 As you know, NIGA, (inaudible). We have been 

19 working diligently on trying to address some of the 

20 questions surrounding the Class II issue. I'll be 

21 brief. We have talked about this in other sessions here 

22 at the NIGA. 

23 So one of the things that we have done is we 

24 have engaged (inaudible). I have some preliminary 

25 numbers. Once we finalize those numbers, I'll gladly 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 submit those for the record. 

2 So what we have so far, we have responses from 

3 29 tribes in 12 states representing 106 casinos. So 

4 far, we have encompassed 28,800 gaming units. And of 

5 those, 45 percent are Grandfathered. Of those 29 

6 tribes -- 55 percent of the tribes and 78 percent of the 

7 casinos still have Grandfathered systems in play. Each 

8 of those have an average of 3.3 Grandfathered systems on 

9 the floor currently. 

10 86 percent of those tribes have had some sort 

11 of modification through the years to update those in 

12 different ways. So, clearly, they are taking advantage 

13 of 547 to upgrade some of the components. 

14 On the systems, through those 29 tribes, we 

15 have not found one breach yet through the Grandfathered 

16 system. Nobody has reported a breech. On the 

17 Grandfathered machines, 55 percent of tribes represented 

18 78 casinos had Grandfathered machines. And, again, no 

19 breaches have been reported on any machine units. 

20 On the non-Grandfathered side, though, there 

21 have been two reported breeches on the gaming system and 

22 one reported breech on gaming units. And that has been 

23 over a five-year period. So three breeches in five 

24 years. Like I said, preliminary, and we still have 

25 ongoing results coming in. And we look forward to 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 wrapping that up soon. We want to make sure we provide 

2 you with as much information as we can. 

3 Secondarily, we worked with National 

4 Congregating Regulatory Association to go through with 

5 your staff to look at risk associated with the 

6 Grandfathered System. 

7 And as Mr. Waldo indicated, we went 

8 through and -- and Mr. Hummingbird, Chairperson in the 

9 audience here -- 56 technical standards of 547, and 

10 broke it down into high, medium and low risk issues. 

11 High, means a compliance risk; cheating, misleading or 

12 integrity issues; medium, being minimal compliance risk 

13 that don't affect integrity issues; and low means of 

14 little or no consequences. 

15 Of those standards, we have 28 high-risk 

16 standards being involved with the 547 testing. But all 

17 of those being within the Grandfather Section. But 

18 there are other sections of 547 that we have to look at 

19 in order to test those from a lab perspective, either 26 

20 of the 28 (inaudible). And the other thing we are 

21 currently exploring is some of the additional 

22 things because 93 percent is from testing lab 

23 perspective. 

24 We all know that once the lab (inaudible), The 

25 Tribal Gaming Commission does more testing. And by way 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 of example, live verifications, signature testing, 

2 currency testing, online monitoring system, MICS audits. 

3 And then there are other tribes that do their own 

4 additional testing. 

5 We are trying to answer you on what is that 

6 risk associated with that out there, and we think we 

7 have a pretty good handle on it. But, again, we are 

8 still having on going discussions to make sure we can 

9 present you with documented evidence that we feel make 

10 our case. 

11 And our case is this: We feel like there's 

12 nothing wrong with the machines. Over a ten-year 

13 period, if there had been something wrong, we would have 

14 heard about it. It's not out there. We can't find it. 

15 We talked to the lab, we talked to the tribe to find out 

16 where is there a risk. 

17 We would ask that you leave the job of 

18 regulating the machines on the floor. Let it be an 

19 economic and Tribal regulatory decision, not a Federal 

20 Government decision. And don't cause unnecessary 

21 economic harm where risk that does doesn't exist. 

22 The only other thing I think I can probably 

23 add today other than that, is I notice on your time line 

24 you were talking about July 1st. Because this issue is 

25 on a separate tribe from the other ones, I would ask if 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 we could rule this as quickly as possible. 

2 That would be very advantageous to tribes out 

3 there who are caught right now, trying to make sure they 

4 know how to plan their businesses for the next fiscal 

5 year. The sooner we have some guidance on the issue, 

6 which would help a lot our businesses and tribes plan 

7 for that next year. Thank you for your time. And thank 

8 you for having this consultation discussion. 

9 JONOVDEV CHAUDHURI: Thank you, Mr. Morgan. 

10 Many, many thanks to the subcommittee. I know that this 

11 was somewhat in response to the statements that we made 

12 that we appreciate the economic impact of these games. 

13 But as regulators mandated to ensure the 

14 integrity of Indian Gaming, we want to hear more about 

15 the risks involved in these systems. 

16 And I very much appreciate the analysis. We 

17 understand a little more information is on its way. But 

18 to your point about the timing of this, these are 

19 revolving consultations. Yes, we have a schedule that 

20 involve closing the comments at the end of June. 

21 However, our analysis of potential solutions is ongoing 

22 and active right now. 

23 So if there's additional ideas that come to 

24 mind, we have no problem engaging in further dialog, 

25 whether it is on draft or a draft presented by a 

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1 subcommittee, we are happy to move this as quickly as we 

2 can. We know 2018 is going come one way or another. 

3 So I thank you. Does anybody have anything 

4 they want to add to that. 

5 We thank you for that input Mr. Morgan. And 

6 certainly the balance of the economic impact and risk is 

7 very important to us.

8 SEQUOYAH SIMERMEYER: I just want to ask for 

9 clarification. Your preference is that there be 

10 resolution to this before the end of the year? 

11 MATTHEW MORGAN: Yes. As tribes try to 

12 forecast what their budget and revenues are, 

13 understanding that should this Sunset Provision stand, 

14 they're going to have to make necessary decisions. And 

15 the sooner they can understand what that landscape looks 

16 like, the sooner they can make better decisions. We 

17 prefer this discussion of subcommittee, that be taken 

18 care of sooner than later if at all possible. 

19 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: Excellent point. Thanks 

20 for making that point.

21 EDWINIA BUTLER-WOLF: Good morning again. I 

22 always have to make sure everyone is recognized. And 

23 the two young ladies on the end that introduced 

24 themselves. I always have to make sure everyone's 

25 recognized. 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: Thank you. How did we 

2 miss that? 

3 CHRISTINA THOMPSON: We were thinking it was 

4 okay. We didn't need to do it. Christina Thompson, 

5 Deputy Chief of staff with NIGC. 

6 SHANNON O'LOUGHLIN: Shannon O'Loughlin, 

7 Oklahoma. And I am the Chief of Staff at NIGC. 

8 EDWINA BUTLER-WOLFE. That's just my fashion. 

9 You have to make sure everyone is recognized. I'm 

10 Edwina Butler-Wolfe, Governor of the Absentee Shawnee 

11 Tribe in Oklahoma. We are a small tribe which is a 

12 little over 4000. And we have two casinos in our area. 

13 In talking with (inaudible) and gaming 

14 commission Kelly Switch and our Executive Director 

15 Leslie Tanyan, who keeps me updated on all the gaming 

16 procedures and what is happening in Indian Gaming, so as 

17 Governor, I've got many items on my plate to look at. 

18 So I wanted to express my good thoughts to Leslie. 

19 I just wanted to put it out there that these 

20 Grandfather games do not pose a risk to us. 

21 Grandfathered games remain some of the most popular and 

22 profitable games in our casinos. 

23 Removing Grandfathered games will hurt tribes 

24 economically. The Grandfathered language should be 

25 removed. 

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1 And I know I'm echoing a lot of my comments 

2 when I was in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And I wanted to thank 

3 you for allowing Tribal leaders and representatives from 

4 the tribes to express our sentiments on what works for 

5 us as a tribe. 

6 And this would not work for us. Like I said, 

7 we are a small tribe. And I think that would hurt us 

8 economically. 

9 So I wanted to express that again. And I know 

10 that I have said in Tulsa that I would bring my 

11 comments. And it's a beautiful state, California. And 

12 you've got a very beautiful area here. So I enjoy 

13 coming out here. It's my first time out here in San 

14 Diego. So I wanted to thank you for allowing us to 

15 express our concerns for this issue. 

16 It is a vital issue that we as tribes look at 

17 and to think about our people. Because we have to think 

18 about our people. And we have got to look at them and 

19 there well-being. So it's a lot of stress on the 

20 leaders and all of our people that work under us. So I 

21 want to thank you for being allowed to do that. 

22 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: Thank you, Governor. 

23 Thank you for your advocacy for your nation. 

24 NANCY GREEN: Nancy Green again. Green Law 

25 firm. I don't know if I mentioned that earlier. 

26
Hearing April 12, 2017

1 You know, I wanted to say, you know, thank you 

2 to the NIGC for considering this. I know that you have 

3 been in receipt of many comments surrounding these games 

4 before. And so I won't regurgitate those for this 

5 morning. 

6 But, also, I would like to say thanks to Mike 

7 and Mr. Morgan and Mr. Little, and those folks that are 

8 working together for the real data for this that will, 

9 help, I hope, make an educated decision on whether or 

10 not Sunset Provision on this be removed. 

11 And also just for clarification purposes, when 

12 are we expecting, you know, to conclude the comment 

13 period on this? 

14 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: Well, as I mentioned 

15 before, at the end of June, we haven't called it a 

16 deadline, because we do welcome comments that are 

17 relevant at all times. But at the end of June, we will 

18 be compiling all comments. 

19 With that said, I don't want to get ahead of 

20 ourselves, but depending on additional data that comes 

21 in, we will consider the benefit of having an initial 

22 discussion document prepared before that. But we 

23 understand that the time sensitive nature of some of the 

24 these discussions. And we want it to move as quickly as 

25 we can. 

27
Hearing April 12, 2017

1 NANCY GREEN: Yeah. And I appreciate that. 

2 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: The end of June is the 

3 comment period end. But I wouldn't be surprised if we 

4 produce something before that for discussion purposes. 

5 NANCY GREEN: Okay. Thank you.

6 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: That report is very 

7 important. We welcome data. And we want our analysis 

8 to be data driven. And we appreciate you doing your own 

9 independent analysis. We appreciate the hard work that 

10 is going into analyzing the risk from the perspective as 

11 well.

12 MS. GREEN: Just one more question in regard 

13 to that comment. You mentioned that you're pursing your 

14 own data. Is there any ETA when that might be published 

15 so that the tribes will have an opportunity to look at 

16 your findings? 

17 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: You know, I think that 

18 good ideas come from multiple sources. So the 

19 comparisons of Grandfathered Systems and the controls 

20 that apply to them against non Grandfathered Systems is 

21 something that we have been looking in terms of actual 

22 practice on the ground about how those concerns that 

23 were reflected in non Grandfathered arena are being 

24 addressed. 

25 So I think that's what we talked about quite a 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 bit. I don't know -- I hate to throw Travis under the 

2 bus. But whenever we start talking Technical Data, 

3 there are people that can speak to this better than I 

4 can.

5 NANCY GREEN: No pressure Travis. Just jump 

6 on in there. 

7 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: He's looking at me like -- 

8 But in terms of our own analysis, we have 

9 compared the safeguards for Grandfathered versus non 

10 Grandfathered, trying to look at the underlying rational 

11 behind those safeguards. 

12 We have looked at the regulatory history of 

13 that. And we are trying to have a realistic sense of 

14 whether or not the public safety issues are already 

15 addressed with the systems that are in place right now. 

16 So in terms of data, you know, we have looked 

17 at compliance issues that may have arisen because of 

18 these matters. But those are the kind of things we are 

19 looking at. We are looking at the underlying logic of 

20 how the regulation is formatted and compared to relevant 

21 risk on the ground. I think that's fair to say. 

22 NANCY GREEN: Thank you. 

23 SHANNON O'LOUGHLIN: So right now, we have a 

24 deadline set for July 1st for all our written topics on 

25 all seven topics that we have. Considering the comments 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 here today, we will do our best to work with the 

2 Commission to see what would be a reasonable date for us 

3 to set a deadline for written comments about this 

4 subject, as well as whether we are going to be producing 

5 any written document or findings from the analysis we 

6 are doing work that will be a part of any kind of 

7 Federal Register or any kind of public notice. 

8 So give us a little time so that we can get 

9 correct information on that and make sure that we are 

10 all aware and on the same page as far as deadlines. We 

11 are not going to move forward without back and forth. 

12 So give us a little time, and we will bring this to the 

13 Commission.

14 NANCY GREEN: Well, thank you for that. I was 

15 really just -- given to the time-sensative nature of the 

16 issue that we have all discussed and recognized. At 

17 least from my part, I wanted to encourage my tribal 

18 clients to, you know, get our comments prepared as soon 

19 as we can, and verbally. I just didn't know. I was 

20 trying to get a sense of when that might be. 

21 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: Thank you Chief of Staff. 

22 As I said before, don't be surprised if 

23 there's a discussion draft issued -- but, again, solely 

24 for discussion -- earlier than June. 

25 BARBARA COLLIER: Good morning again. Barbara 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 Collier. Several things have been brought to my mind 

2 going along with what Nancy what saying. Keeping item 

3 seven on your agenda separate would be more costly for 

4 the tribe I believe. 

5 So if we could get this issue behind us as 

6 quickly as possible. Not that the other six are not 

7 important. But there's no time line there. If it 

8 continues to stay a time line, then we are looking at 

9 having to work with that. 

10 So, to my knowledge, the consultations that 

11 I've been privileged to be with, there have been no 

12 tribes that have had any risks with these machines. So 

13 I don't know what your data is showing you that you're 

14 collecting. 

15 But any data that we have been shown through 

16 the (inaudible) or OTRGRA, Oklahoma hasn't shown any 

17 risk of the compliance of these machines that are 

18 Grandfathered. There are many left in Oklahoma, as 

19 you've heard from the report. 

20 So one of our issues is that if we do have to 

21 meet this guidelines and the Sunset portion is not 

22 removed or something is not done about that, then there 

23 will be a hurry-up job. And you all know, or maybe you 

24 don't know, front line compliance individuals often, 

25 when there's a hurry-up jobs from vendors, even though 

31
Hearing April 12, 2017

1 they don't intend for there to be, often times that 

2 makes for more issues and more problems. 

3 So continuing on with it as it is, there's 

4 going to be thousands of machines across the United 

5 States that (inaudible) before November 10, 2018. And 

6 that there may lie a problem with getting them done 

7 properly. You've mentioned integrity earlier, the 

8 Commission having integrity of operations. Well, that's 

9 too goes to the tribes. The authority that my 

10 department, my agency, has over the casino, rules and 

11 regulations is not just on someone that -- don't take 

12 this wrong -- I know you sit behind a desk just like I 

13 do. But I have people on the front line, compliance 

14 agents, that open and close machines daily. They check 

15 them daily. They check the software. They install the 

16 software. They make sure it talks with the server. 

17 They do everything that's possible to make 

18 these machines -- electronic gaming machines in Oklahoma 

19 because we don't have slots -- run properly. 

20 And some of these machines that you're keying 

21 on or being keyed on as not being acceptable, are some 

22 of the most popular machines in Oklahoma. They are also 

23 in other States. But in Oklahoma, the down-home red 

24 neck Okalhomans like these machines. So they like to be 

25 play them. And if they are not there when they come in, 

32
Hearing April 12, 2017

1 they are mad. Or if someone is sitting at their 

2 machine, they are mad. And they stand over in the 

3 corner and wait and glare at them. 

4 So if you think I'm joking, and that was kind 

5 of a red-neck comment, but that's the truth. I have 

6 seen it with my own eyes. They come in, and they are 

7 very protective of what they like to play. 

8 We just had a new casino open up in Kansas. 

9 And they only have Class III. So guess what? Their 

10 Kansas players are still coming to Oklahoma because they 

11 can play what they want, class II games. 

12 So here are a couple of things on the other 

13 comments. But I'm not going to with dwell on those 

14 consultation until I see the announcement from the NIGC 

15 suspending 542, putting out a Voluntary non binding 

16 Guidance Document. 

17 In the past, because I've been around a long 

18 time, guidance documents work well. We appreciate 

19 having guidance documents that we can have thoughts and 

20 comments back on. Because they don't become law, you 

21 can work with them a little bit better. 

22 If this had been a Guidance Document, we would 

23 not be sitting here today talking about the Grandfather 

24 Clause. The Technical Standards, we have a lot of 

25 concern about that. We know that Travis Waldo is A-1 on 

33
Hearing April 12, 2017

1 technical issues. And so we are not really concerned 

2 about what will or won't happen. 

3 But we are concerned about the future. We 

4 know that electronics are the future. And me, being 

5 old, I know that they have come a long ways and they are 

6 going to go further. 

7 And the further they go, the harder they are 

8 going to be to regulate, the more difficult. And right 

9 now, let them say, "Well I'm downloading so and so to 

10 your sever." Well, okay. Because I can't look at that 

11 and tell if they are doing that of course, the 

12 technicians can. That's why we have those people. So 

13 we are putting a lot of confidence in Travis to come up 

14 with a solution that will be all right for everyone. 

15 My comments about Grandfathered Gaming System, 

16 I know there have been a lot of discussions about why we 

17 should not be moving Grandfathered games off the floor 

18 and the Sunset Clause. 

19 Today, I would like to speak to some of the 

20 positive aspects of the Grandfathered games and reasons 

21 why we should be keeping them on the floor. 

22 First, the very fact that the game has been 

23 Grandfathered under 547, makes it undeniable that it 

24 constitutes Class II gaming. This Grandfathered 

25 designation can be helpful in defending the Class II 

34
Hearing April 12, 2017

1 status of a game, especially in negotiations with the 

2 State. 

3 In Oklahoma, as you know, my contract is set 

4 to expire on January 1, 2020. And we will need all the 

5 leverage we can get to defend the status of our Class II 

6 games. 

7 Also, Tribal Game Regulatory Agencies have 

8 greater flexibility with Grandfathered systems than they 

9 do with fully compliant Systems. Under 547.555, A 

10 Grandfathered system can be modified without having to 

11 be submitted to a testing laboratory as long as the 

12 Tribal gaming regulator authority feels the 

13 modifications would maintain or advance the Class II 

14 gaming system. 

15 My hope is that you will take the action 

16 needed to help us protect the status of Class II games. 

17 These are all my comments for now on this 

18 issue. I'll be submitting in more detail the formal 

19 comment in coming months. 

20 But please keep in mind that we are on the 

21 floor, my people are in and out of machines every day, 

22 testing software, making sure that the integrity of 

23 gaming, as well as what we report to NIGC gaming 

24 commission is topnotch. 

25 And I think that most of all, all gaming 

35
Hearing April 12, 2017

1 agencies or gaming commissions that I know, in my area 

2 anyway, do the same or are the same. And I'll stand 

3 behind them as I do my own. So we do our very best to 

4 make sure that our people are not going to be conflicted 

5 by any machine. The switch on these machines, most of 

6 them, are going to have to be updated, and because it's 

7 already talking with the systems, seems to be just 

8 something that does not need to be done. 

9 So with those comments, I appreciate you 

10 letting us speak with you today. It's a pleasure to get 

11 to see you all as we do when we have these occasions. 

12 And have a safe trip home. Thank you. 

13 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: Thank you Ms. Collier for 

14 your comments and your valuable perspective. We 

15 absolutely respect the role of these games and the role 

16 that you played in making this industry what it is. So 

17 thank you. 

18 Ms. Homer. 

19 ELIZABETH HOMER: Thank you. 

20 Liz Homer. Thank you for conveying these 

21 consultations. I think the NIGC's continuing 

22 demonstration of consultation is very encouraging to 

23 Indian country. 

24 But I also commend you for saying -- now, I 

25 believe I heard you correctly when you said you were 

36
Hearing April 12, 2017

1 going to review the rational that was underlying the 

2 original rule making for this part 547. 

3 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: Certainly. I mean, part 

4 of the process is figuring out where we are going. And 

5 risk is part of every analysis that we have. So I 

6 assume -- and if there is insight that you have, given 

7 your past experience with the commission, please share 

8 it. But I assume that the reason for the provisions as 

9 they are written right now wouldn't be helpful for our 

10 discussions. So we haven't been talking about what was 

11 trying to be achieved by a past commission when these 

12 Grandfather provisions were instituted in the first 

13 place. Because, again, we are about sound regulations, 

14 which involves doing your job, but also not creating 

15 artificial roadblocks.

16 ELIZABETH HOMER: Thank you for that. I think 

17 it's really important because I think that part 547 was 

18 created for another purpose that, you know, morphed into 

19 these technical standards. 

20 And a lot of my colleagues are here at the 

21 table today. And we all participated in those 

22 consultations pertaining to 547. And it was really 

23 pretty -- wouldn't you say -- there's a lot of back and 

24 forth animated discussion about it. 

25 But part of the problem was -- and this is 

37
Hearing April 12, 2017

1 also why I'm really glad you all updated your technical 

2 staff and that we have good folks to take a look at 

3 these. Because I think in that very first team, there 

4 really was not a good understanding about the Class II 

5 gaming technology. 

6 And I think that it was, with respect to some 

7 decision makers, whose idea was that the Class II gaming 

8 technology, that these are just slot machines that we 

9 call Bingo. We spend a lot of time disproving that 

10 notion, that these not slot machines that we call Bingo. 

11 These are Bingo based server-based gaming systems. 

12 So if you go back through your records, 

13 through your administrative records through this rule, 

14 you'll see that very easily, that a lot of things that 

15 got deleted out of the original proposal on part 547 is 

16 really because it did not fit for Class II. 

17 It was like slot machine standards. So we 

18 have that issue. We also -- and I think I pointed this 

19 out before but it bears repeating. All these 

20 regulations on the CLASS II issue. But, initially, the 

21 idea of part 547 was because we could not ever agree, 

22 tribes in NIGC could never agree on classification 

23 regulation. 

24 You know, so it was the Chairman's idea that 

25 with part 547, we will just send it to the laboratory. 

38
Hearing April 12, 2017

1 Then we will know it's Class II math, Class II game 

2 architecture. And then we won't have to worry about 

3 game classification that's been in controversy since I 

4 was on the commission a thousand years ago. That was 

5 one of our very first regulations that was on my desk. 

6 So bear in mind this history because it's 

7 really important because I think it justifies your 

8 reconsideration of this Sunset provision. You know, 

9 things get in place and morph over time. But if you go 

10 back in the history and look, this is not necessarily 

11 what was intended here. 

12 The other issue is, really, to set product 

13 standards, you know, I wouldn't say to the product 

14 safety standards, more like product integrity standards. 

15 We all want integrity. Nobody is arguing 

16 against integrity. Nobody wants any kind of game 

17 machine on their floor that is either going to cheat the 

18 house or cheat the players. Nobody wants that. 

19 So everyone is not up here going, "Oh, gosh, 

20 this is terrible. We are being forced to have 

21 integrity. So we want the NIGC not to do that." That 

22 is a backwards and upside down way of looking at what 

23 everyone is saying. 

24 And I think what everyone is saying is we are 

25 looking at this, and we are still looking at this very 

39
Hearing April 12, 2017

1 hard. And we are not finding any integrity issues. And 

2 these games have had the status for ten years. In ten 

3 years, if there was some big scandal out there, it would 

4 have erupted. We would have had that scandal. So is 

5 there really any continuing justification for a sunset? 

6 Rather, doesn't it be make more sense just to have it 

7 Grandfathered? And Federal agencies, when they are 

8 making rules in areas that have a significant economic 

9 impact, you know, under the regulations governing 

10 regulators, they are supposed to tread softly. You 

11 know, tread softly. Don't do economic harm, especially 

12 needlessly. The burden is really on the agency to 

13 justify these kinds of rules. 

14 I know we have a gaming commission that is 

15 acting in good faith. So these are not intended to be 

16 criticisms of you or any member of the staff. I know 

17 you're in good faith. I know you take this seriously. 

18 But I also just want to point out that we 

19 should also be looking specifically, you know, at the 

20 details. But we also need to keep in mind the 

21 principals of good governments and the boundaries that 

22 Federal agencies and adhere to in making these kind of 

23 decisions that affect the market place. Thank you. 

24 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: Thank you Ms. Homer. You 

25 can probably anticipate the following in this statement. 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 I just want to clarify, for us, this is not a 

2 classification discussion at all. 

3 We are trying to come up with a rational 

4 approach to an existing regulation that is currently 

5 part of the status quo. 

6 And so the status quo is what existed, exists 

7 now, based on decisions that have been made before. And 

8 we respect the decision making process that led to those 

9 decisions. 

10 But, if anything, any potential agency action 

11 we are considering, it involves having a reasonable 

12 approach to possibly improving the regulations on the 

13 books now. 

14 So I definitely appreciate the -- I think the 

15 well-founded statement that agencies should take impacts 

16 into account when making new law. But what we are doing 

17 is, we are trying to address something that is part of 

18 status quo. 

19 So I do want to make that point because, you 

20 know, my hats off to our team, the NIGC, who worked with 

21 Indian country to say, "Let's look at what is already on 

22 the books and discuss if there are ways to make it 

23 better" because for better, for worse, I don't think any 

24 of us were around when the Sunset Provisions were 

25 drafted in the first place. But we do welcome this 

41
Hearing April 12, 2017

1 dialogue. 

2 ELIZABETH HOMER: I was there. 

3 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: Well, I know you were, 

4 Liz. But we do welcome this dialogue and all 

5 of the data all of you are working so hard to present. 

6 I do want to mention to Ms. Collier's comment. 

7 We don't want a hurry up job either. We want to take a 

8 sober look at how we got to where we are, where the 

9 industry is going, and how to balance our job in support 

10 of the primary regulators of Indian gaming to maintain 

11 integrity of operations while balancing risks and 

12 concerns. 

13 We want to look at those together. And I 

14 think that's what we are doing. Thank you so much for 

15 your comments. 

16 ELIZABETH HOMER: Let me just point out one 

17 more thing. I don't want it to sound like I alone was 

18 there. Matthew Morgan was there. Sheila Morago was 

19 there. Nancy Green was there. Kathy Odas was there. A 

20 lot of people in this room were there and can testify as 

21 to the accuracy of my statement is that this thing 

22 morphed and became something else. And I hope you take 

23 that into account. 

24 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: And it's very appreciated, 

25 because I want to make clear, this is not classification 

42
Hearing April 12, 2017

1 discussion for us. This is just an approach to figure 

2 out a sound resolution to something that is already on 

3 the books, that's all. 

4 ELIZABETH HOMER: The point of raising the 

5 classification is just to point out -- I'm not 

6 suggesting that that's part of this discussion. It's to 

7 point out that is how this regulation was conceived. It 

8 was some kind of an answer to the classification 

9 regulations. 

10 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: And that very well may be 

11 the case. And so here we are. We have got it on the 

12 books. And we are open to doing something about it. 

13 BARBARA COLLIER: Also, just to clarify, your 

14 comment about the hurry-up issue that I was referring to 

15 is not you hurrying up to make a decision -- although, I 

16 am hoping that you do. After all of the consultations 

17 that I've attended and that you have planned, I hope 

18 that it does come to an end one day. 

19 But, you know, it has trickled over from last 

20 year and on and on, for ten years now, I guess you could 

21 say. My expedient process was, if we do -- if the 

22 Sunset Clause is not removed, we have no problem on my 

23 end anyway upgrading the machines. It's just time frame 

24 now that we are up against. 

25 I don't want that to be a hurry-up job like 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 for one company to come in and have to completely close 

2 down the casino. But then they have to hurry up and get 

3 this installed so they can go somewhere else and 

4 somewhere else and somewhere else. 

5 That was the hurry-up job I'm talking about. 

6 Because whenever you do that, you get mistakes, human 

7 error. Because they are trying to hurry up, and they 

8 are trying to get your machines back up on your floor 

9 and not be detained. That was my issue. The more 

10 courage you get, the more mistakes you make. 

11 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: Excellent point,

12 Ms. Collier. Not to direct comments in any way. But 

13 for the sake of argument, say, the agency makes a 

14 decision that the risk levels are such that the 

15 integrity concerns are minimal, to say the least, with 

16 these games. That would lead us to the next question: 

17 Well, where do we go from there? There are different 

18 models that have been proposed. 

19 As I said, please don't be surprised if there 

20 is some discussion documents in the future. But

21 Mr. Morgan had mentioned empowering TGRA's to make some 

22 of those cuts. You, know, we are about empowering 

23 primary regulators as much as possible. 

24 But if there specific comments folks have 

25 about models that may be, you know, may be suggested, 

44
Hearing April 12, 2017

1 please feel free to suggest those as well. Like I said, 

2 we may issue something solely for discussion purposes. 

3 But we are not going to finalize anything until we have 

4 all had a chance to collaborate and discuss. 

5 Thank you Ms. Collier and Ms. Homer. 

6 SEQUOYAH SIMERMEYER: Having the opportunity 

7 to look back at the history and evolution of this issue, 

8 one thing that does it for me is, in 2008, in the 

9 preamble for the regulations, the commission at that 

10 time stated saying that the purpose of it is to provide 

11 a viable means for TGRA operators to ensure the 

12 standards of Class II game is played with technological 

13 aids are fully audible. 

14 And that is something that in 2012, the 

15 commission did not reverse back. So perhaps on the same 

16 lines, the Chairman feels getting feedback on economic 

17 process is again important.

18 CELEST HUGHES: I want to thank NIGC for the 

19 opportunity to participate in this very important 

20 consultation. I want to thank Yvonne for her blessing 

21 and for saving me and to Echo-Hawk for extending her 

22 thoughts to all tribal leaders and to representatives. 

23 I stated earlier I representing the Soboba 

24 Band of Indians as Chair Commissioner. I also serve as 

25 Secretary for National Gaming Commission. 

45
Hearing April 12, 2017

1 I am here today to listen to the tribal 

2 leadership, to listen to their concerns and to obtain 

3 information from NIGA sub committee and thank them for 

4 the work. 

5 Again, I want to understand the economic 

6 impasse that are going to be impacting tribes. I urge 

7 NIGC to allow prior regulators to turn in if and when 

8 any impact needs to be removed from the floor based on 

9 proven integrity issues. I look forward to the special 

10 draft. And I would want to apologize for having to 

11 leave early. Thank you. 

12 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: Thank you for that. 

13 We have about 45 minutes left in our scheduled 

14 time. But I wanted to make sure everyone has the 

15 opportunities to be heard. No shame in finishing early. 

16 SEQUOYAH SIMERMEYER: I want to say that in my 

17 experience in consultations from the Federal side. The 

18 process is a really important consideration in 

19 consultation. And to great extent as possible making 

20 consultation bilateral back and forth. 

21 It makes consultation something different than 

22 administrative rule making. So this employing comments 

23 between the government is important to be as bilateral 

24 as possible. On Indian country so I would appreciate 

25 the effort folks make in keeping that dialog going. 

46
Hearing April 12, 2017

1 BARBARA COLLIER: Thank you for your comments. 

2 But earlier on, when you made your comment about 2008, 

3 2012, making the machines auditable, I don't think 

4 there's ever been a question about them being auditable. 

5 And I have been through the machine inside and out. So 

6 maybe there's a question here that is not being covered. 

7 If there's a question about auditable. The machines 

8 that are in question, have met that issue. 

9 SEQUOYAH SIMERMEYER: Not to say that it's 

10 established. I am just saying that in looking at the 

11 letter. 

12 ELIZABETH HOMER: Thank you for raising that 

13 point. That verifies what I was saying is that there 

14 wasn't a good understanding of the technology. This was 

15 this belief that these CLASS II games are just slot 

16 machines that the Indians are calling Bingo. It's a 

17 server-based gaming system. It was brand new. Now the 

18 bigger roles of gaming and Class II world, they have a 

19 server that's following the Class II technology. 

20 So it might be worth while to look at the 

21 technical standards to even review some of those 

22 standards, you know, because there are new standards for 

23 server-based gaming that both laboratory have, you know, 

24 issued since then. 

25 So you know, I am realist here. I am not 

47
Hearing April 12, 2017

1 saying "Open the whole regulation back up. Get rid of 

2 the Sunset provision." And I think no one is 

3 really complaining. We have technical standards. But 

4 it's just that the Sunset provision didn't make good 

5 sense. But I hear you. And I just want to reiterate. 

6 There was serious misunderstanding about the technology 

7 at the time. 

8 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: We have I'll turn it over 

9 to my fellow Commissioners for final statement if there 

10 are no additional comments or questions. 

11 KATHRYN ISOM-CLAUS: This is the last time for 

12 any purpose on this topic. Thank you for the topics, 

13 and we look forward. Thank you. 

14 SEQUOYAH SIMERMEYER: I want to state my 

15 appreciation for that and what we can do to make 

16 bilateral process a better result in the end. And say 

17 that I appreciate the work. This would not be possible 

18 without the expertise at the regional level. We have a 

19 lot of the ground experience on the regulation. So I 

20 don't think any of our Federal agencies will be affected 

21 unless we have on the ground perspective with partners. 

22 JONODEV CHAUDHURI: Thank you. 

23 Thank you all for taking the time to be here 

24 today. I think everybody recognizes the impact of these 

25 issues. While they may involve some very dry regulatory 

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 language, we all do recognize the impact that these 

2 matters have on real lives on the ground. 

3 So thank you for taking the time to be here. 

4 Thank you for any comments that you'll be submitting 

5 after this. And I just really wish you the best of luck 

6 as we move forward. 

7 We do have a consultation tomorrow on other 

8 topics. I hope everyone here will attend that 

9 consultation as well. And thank you for those who are 

10 heading home. 

11 Safe travels. 

12 (The consultation concluded at 11:50 a.m.)

13

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15

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19

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21

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Hearing April 12, 2017

1 STATE OF CALIFORNIA )

) SS.

2 COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO ) 

3

4 I, KIMBERLY S. HANNA, CSR NO. 12230, a certified 

5 shorthand reporter for the State of California, do 

6 hereby certify:

7 That said Hearing was taken down by me in 

8 stenographic writing at the time and place therein named 

9 and thereafter reduced to computer-aided transcription 

10 under my direction; 

11 That the foregoing transcript, as typed, is a 

12 true and accurate record of the proceedings; 

13 I further certify that I am not interested in 

14 the event of the action.

15

16 Witness my hand this 31st day of May, 2017. 

17

18 _________________________________

19 KIMBERLY S. HANNA, CSR NO. 12230 

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