TRIBAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE; December 7, 2011

1

2 _________________________________________________________

3 TRIBAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE

4 MEETING

5 SUQUAMISH, WASHINGTON

6 VOLUME II

7 _________________________________________________________

8

9 SUQUAMISH CLEARWATER CASINO RESORT

10 15347 SUQUAMISH WAY NORTHEAST

11 CHIEF KITSAP HALL

12 DECEMBER 7, 2011

13 8:17 A.M.

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24 TRANSCRIBED BY: CHERYL L. O'HALECK

25 Job No. NJ366119

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1 SUQUAMISH, WASHINGTON; DECEMBER 7, 2011

2 8:17 A.M.

3 --oOo--

4

5 MR. FISHER: Okay. Good morning,

6 everybody. We're off to a slightly delayed start due to

7 the technology.

8 Okay. How are we going to start this

9 morning? Anybody have anything on your mind from

10 yesterday you want to bring up?

11 Robin?

12 MS. LASH: I notice on the agenda we did

13 have a line item for the summaries. I don't think we

14 ever addressed that. I just wondered if -- I know we

15 haven't gotten any and I don't see a note-taker, so I

16 guess --

17 MR. FISHER: Well, I'm still going to do

18 a summary from this meeting, but I'm going to do it in

19 the way that we talked about at the end of the Rapid

20 City meeting, which it will contain the consensus things

21 and any kind of action items.

22 MS. LASH: That's all we need.

23 MR. FISHER: And I'm about that close to

24 having the November summary ready and the October,

25 revised October summary ready to send out. So if I can,

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1 I might do it in the evening this week, otherwise it

2 will come early next week. And then this one will

3 follow.

4 So I got caught up short between the --

5 with the holiday and the short time frame between the

6 two meetings. And honestly, it also -- to create the

7 November summary also proved to be a little -- a lot

8 more work than I had originally anticipated in order to

9 put it all together, to take all the different pieces we

10 did and then also mark it to show the changes to the

11 TGWG document. And so it just took me longer than I

12 expected, and I got caught up short in the time.

13 MR. McGHEE: Just FYI, I have to leave

14 tomorrow early, probably around -- whatever that ferry

15 is, 10:00 something, 11:00 something. So I won't be

16 here for tomorrow afternoon. So all the really

17 important stuff we need to do today.

18 MR. FISHER: All right. Thanks for

19 letting us know.

20 MR. MORGAN: Robert, I'm in the same boat

21 at 3:00. I have to be in Phoenix the next day at

22 9:00 a.m.

23 MR. FISHER: So you're going to leave at

24 what time?

25 MR. MORGAN: I think 3:00, because my

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1 understanding is there is a 3:50 ferry back across.

2 MR. McGHEE: I mean, how long should you

3 give yourself to get to the airport, back to the ferry?

4

5 MR. CULLOO: You're what, 15 minutes from

6 the ferry? You're a 35-minute crossing and then you

7 have 20 to 25 minutes to the airport. And if you have a

8 rental car return, whatever is appropriate.

9 For those leaving Friday morning -- is

10 anyone leaving Friday morning? You have rush-hour

11 traffic going over in the morning. So you might want to

12 get there a half-hour before the thing leaves or you

13 might be pushing onto the next ferry, which could be an

14 hour difference. It's a major commute to Seattle

15 between the 6:30 and 8:00 ferries.

16 MR. McGHEE: I'm not opposed as far as

17 working late.

18 MR. CULLOO: We've got to work later

19 because you have to go early?

20 MS. LASH: I know. Thanks, Daniel.

21 MR. McGHEE: Just volunteering.

22 MR. GARVIN: At least he's not opposed to

23 it. Thanks.

24 MR. McGHEE: Thanks, Steve. I'm going to

25 stay by myself right here.

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1 MR. FISHER: All right. Well, we may be

2 able to get -- I mean, we're on a track to end at 5:00

3 on Thursday, so we'll just -- we haven't quite caught

4 back up to the agenda yet, but who knows? Maybe we'll

5 be able to do that and be done early enough for Matthew,

6 anyway, to be here for the end. Otherwise, I'm on a

7 track to end us at 5:00, unless you tell me otherwise.

8 MR. McGHEE: And Matt can speak on my

9 behalf fully. I trust him.

10 MR. MORGAN: Sorry?

11 MR. McGHEE: You can speak on my behalf.

12 MR. FISHER: Maybe you should get him to

13 leave now.

14 MR. MORGAN: This hand is being a little

15 disagreeable right now. We're not there quite yet.

16 MR. FISHER: All right. Anybody have

17 anything else on your mind as we get started here?

18 MR. MORGAN: Can you remind us where we

19 stopped at, like where the conversation was so we all

20 start from the same page?

21 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: What did you say?

22 MR. MORGAN: Remind us where we stopped

23 at.

24 MR. FISHER: Where we stopped was in

25 543 --

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1 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: 543.9(i).

2 MR. FISHER: Right.

3 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: That's

4 because I have a little sign.

5 MR. FISHER: That's good.

6 MS. THOMAS: I have a star next to it.

7 MR. FISHER: So I have to get the

8 document open.

9 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Page 13.

10 MR. FISHER: All right. So we were

11 talking about a couple different things with respect to

12 that section, one of which was the heading, and then to

13 what extent does the section include the things that

14 were in the heading and whether that was appropriate or

15 not appropriate, and then what the guidance reflected

16 from what's in the -- what was in the heading.

17 And so we pretty much stopped at the

18 point where we were talking about the -- kind of

19 flipping back and forth between the heading and the

20 content of the section (g), and to what extent the

21 contest and tournaments and giveaways were or were not

22 appropriate to be included in that section (g).

23 So you can see on the screen we did talk

24 about taking out the heading, but taking out the heading

25 doesn't get to the issue of what's covered by the

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1 section and what's appropriate to put in the guidance.

2 MS. THOMAS: Actually, I think it does,

3 because if you read the guidance, I know it says "such

4 as," but it does cover the promotions and whether or not

5 there is a tournament that reduces those promotional

6 amounts. So I think just having that --

7 MR. FISHER: Just deleting the heading?

8 MS. THOMAS: Deleting the heading to that

9 point. The guidance still covers how those promotional

10 pools are paid back to the guest.

11 MR. FISHER: Oh, okay. So what do other

12 people think about that?

13 MR. WILSON: What's the question?

14 MR. FISHER: Have we taken care of the

15 concerns and the issues in this section just by deleting

16 the heading? And then should we turn our attention from

17 the section to the guidance document?

18 So part of that question is back to Rest

19 about some of the concerns that you raised about that

20 section.

21 MR. WEST: Well, my concern was that

22 progressive pools and pots are different than contests,

23 tournaments and giveaway programs. So I don't know what

24 the TGWG's intent as far as do they want to cover both

25 areas in the section or just progressive promotional

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1 pools and pots? I mean, as it relates to card games.

2 MR. FISHER: Go ahead, Kathi.

3 MS. HAMEL: I think, as I mentioned

4 yesterday, the intent was to include contests and

5 tournaments if the funds contributed were from the

6 patron. So my answer would be yes, they would all be in

7 the same section because they would have the same types

8 of controls if the patron contributed to the prize pool.

9 MR. WEST: Okay. Well, there is nothing

10 in the standards that's listed that even discusses

11 contests, tournaments and prize pools, just one and two,

12 just generic-type considerations found in most standards

13 for bad beats, promotional pots.

14 MS. HAMEL: And I think that's why we had

15 said "such as," so that they would all be lumped

16 together when talking about promotional.

17 MR. FISHER: So does that address the

18 concern you raised, Rest, or not?

19 MR. WEST: No. It just seems to tie the

20 two together, and I think it needs to be revised or

21 something.

22 MR. MORGAN: The standard needs to be

23 revised or the guidance document needs to be revised?

24 MR. WEST: I don't know. Something needs

25 to be revised.

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1 MR. McGHEE: You've got to have a

2 solution, Rest, you can't just have a problem.

3 MR. FISHER: Right.

4 Tom?

5 MR. WILSON: I have a question or just

6 kind of an observation.

7 I'm concerned that if you focus too much

8 on form over substance that we're going to be spending

9 time talking about how the document should look for

10 where a piece should or shouldn't be.

11 For me, I'm more concerned does it

12 capture what it needs to capture. And I think that the

13 NIGC will be here for the duration over whatever. The

14 fact that it exists in section (a) as opposed to section

15 (b) is less important to me than it is that have we

16 captured all the components that we needed to capture in

17 the document.

18 So I personally would prefer to spend not

19 as much time on the form of the document as opposed to

20 discussing the substance that's presented there and not

21 get sidetracked into, well, should this really be in

22 this section or that section, because that doesn't add a

23 lot to me. What I'm trying to determine is have we

24 captured everything that needs to be captured relating

25 to the issue that that particular section is talking

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1 about.

2 So -- because I have a feeling that, as

3 we go through this, because the TGWG document is in the

4 format that it's in, we're going to run across this

5 frequently, I suspect, that, well, they moved some

6 pieces over here and some pieces over there. And I

7 think we just have to accept that that's the way the

8 document is in its current form, but that doesn't mean

9 that has to be the way the document is in its finished

10 product form.

11 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yeah, I

12 definitely appreciate what you're saying, and you're

13 right, and we don't want to be beating these issues.

14 I think Rest raises a very good point.

15 And I think we're trying to determine has it been moved

16 to another location? Is it addressed somewhere else?

17 And if so, how do we deal with it? Because it's an

18 issue that, you know, our accountants, our auditors feel

19 is important to look at. And I think just an

20 understanding, is it somewhere else? Is it something

21 that should be addressed here you feel or is it

22 something that could be addressed somewhere else?

23 MR. WEST: Well, I have a -- I mean, I

24 just have a fundamental -- I mean, do you intend to have

25 standards in card games of promotional pots and pools,

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1 number one. And then are you going to also have

2 standards in case some of these promotional pots and

3 pools may go -- some of the portion of the funds may be

4 used in contests, tournaments and giveaways.

5 So number one, do you want to have bad

6 beat type standards in card games and then have

7 something else to say in instances where promotional

8 funds are used for contests, tournaments, giveaways, or

9 whatever, have some guidance or standards on that?

10 Because I hear you saying -- to me, you're only

11 addressing the specific instance of when promotional

12 funds are used in contests, tournaments and giveaways.

13 Does this also relate to regular bad beat, where the

14 money is never going to be used in a promotional pot or

15 pool in contests or giveaways?

16 MR. McGHEE: What's bad beat mean? We

17 don't have card games.

18 MR. WHEATLEY: It's a poker jackpot,

19 basically.

20 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: That's

21 shared by everybody, right?

22 MR. WHEATLEY: Player funds are

23 contributed to increase the progressive until it's hit.

24 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: But the

25 players have to bet. If they don't bet, they don't

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1 share.

2 MR. WHEATLEY: They don't contribute to

3 the progressive.

4 MR. MORGAN: I guess what I'm trying to

5 figure out is what I hear Kathi really saying is it

6 doesn't really matter because it's the same type of

7 controls that would control it. And I'm trying to

8 figure out from you, Rest, do you think there is

9 something missing from the standard? It's confusing,

10 it's not clear enough? Is there something in the

11 guidance document that you can pick up and pull into the

12 standard that does make it clearer for you, or no, it's

13 been missed in the standard and it's been missed in the

14 guidance document? Because, again, the intent was the

15 standard was a higher level, general controls, and the

16 guidance document went into more specifics.

17 So I guess I'm trying to figure out from

18 your point of view, did we just miss it entirely because

19 it's not clear, or is there something in the guidance

20 document that better delineates those two subjects and

21 yeah, we're just missing a word in the standard or

22 something that makes it more clear in your mind?

23 MR. WEST: Well, the heading tends to

24 isolate it to only those instances when funds that are

25 earned from promotional -- they're not earned, they're

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1 the players' money, are going to be used in contests,

2 tournaments and giveaways. In a lot of instances in

3 most card games, I mean, it just sits in a bad beat

4 until somebody hits a bad beat. They're not used in

5 contests, tournaments and giveaways.

6 MS. THOMAS: That's not necessarily true,

7 because our properties actually do run contests and

8 tournaments to lower that amount.

9 (Simultaneous discussion.)

10 MR. FISHER: So can you say that again?

11 Because both of you were talking at the same time.

12 MR. WEST: Generally, that's what happens

13 in card rooms. And you might have money going to

14 reserve, bad beats, and after a certain point -- there

15 is various and sundry different ways.

16 MR. WHEATLEY: I think we also do the

17 same as Christina. We have not necessarily a bad beat,

18 but a player-supported jackpot, it's a progressive, that

19 goes up every single day as player contributions, but it

20 also goes down a certain amount every single

21 day, because there is qualifying hands that a player is

22 awarded. If somebody gets four aces, there is a

23 progressive associated with that hand and that lowers

24 the progressive jackpot. So it daily fluctuates, the

25 actual pool goes up and down every single day.

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1 So it's a little bit different, but yeah.

2 MS. THOMAS: So the bad beat is like your

3 overall jackpot, but you still have these other

4 promotions going on with those dollars that are

5 fluctuating that amount.

6 MR. CULLOO: You're taking that money for

7 those type of promotions from the players, it's their

8 money.

9 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: I kind of get what

10 you're saying, though, about that it could be

11 interpreted by reading this that this (i) only applies

12 when it's a contest, tournament.

13 MR. WEST: And if you have some kind of

14 formal contest or tournament rules --

15 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: And I think if you

16 were just to strike that, to just leave it promotional

17 progressive pots and pools, then it would include

18 everything. And then you could interpret -- you would

19 interpret it as just that, bad beat by itself, and then

20 any other fund associated with it.

21 MR. McGHEE: The "such as" part, didn't

22 we delete that yesterday?

23 MS. THOMAS: We didn't. That's kind of

24 where we left off.

25 MR. FISHER: So, Kathi, did you have

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1 something you wanted to say? Can you wait one second?

2 I'm sorry.

3 Okay, go ahead.

4 MS. HAMEL: We do have a section in

5 543.9(h) which is the posted rules. And in our guidance

6 document, there is extensive guidance on rules for just

7 this, bringing -- addressing Rest's questions about the

8 rules, you know, how the pots are split, any

9 administrative fees, the nature of the qualifying hand,

10 a list of the available prizes.

11 And also, there is a new section that's

12 543.10, which is gaming promotions. You're not

13 specifically tied just to card games, but that section

14 would cover controls for all types of gaming promotions;

15 again, rules, nature of the prizes.

16 MR. MORGAN: I leaned on my institutional

17 knowledge for this, this explanation, so I'm prepared to

18 take (inaudible.)

19 One of the reasons that you have to be

20 careful when you're running a Class II card game is

21 because a card game, a Class II card game is defined by

22 the statute, IGRA itself. So when you look at IGRA 2703

23 on what a tournament Class II gaming means, and I'll go

24 down to 7(a)(ii), card games that are explicitly

25 authorized by the law of the state or, two, are not

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1 explicitly prohibited by law in the state and are played

2 at any location in the state but only if such card games

3 are played in conformity with those laws and

4 regulations, if any, of the state regarding hours or

5 period of operations, such as card games, limitational

6 wagers or pot size in such card games.

7 So if you get too specific in your

8 regulations at the NIGC level, you're going to come into

9 conflict with how tribes play those Class II card games

10 in the first place, because they have to play those in

11 conformance with how the state says you can play those

12 Class II card games.

13 That was one of the reasons that maybe

14 we're not as specific here as you would like, because

15 there is a risk that you run in violation of the statute

16 as you delve too far into detail here, because in a

17 Class II card game, it has to be something that's

18 otherwise allowed in the state, what they play, which is

19 different from a Class III card game.

20 MR. WEST: I'm arguing the TGWG document

21 is too specific. It's pointing towards contests,

22 tournaments and giveaways. I'm saying it needs to be

23 more general. There needs to be some standards or

24 guidance -- well, there is some guidance back there --

25 on the general situation where you have a bad beat, how

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1 funds go into the bad beat, how they're paid out, then

2 also a situation where the jurisdiction allows whatever,

3 when some of the funds can be taken and put into a

4 contest or some other kind of promotion.

5 Also, tournaments generally, from my

6 experience, don't use funds out of promotional pots,

7 they're generally -- sometimes a casino sees a little

8 bit of the money, the players buy into the tournaments

9 with $20 buy-ins or whatever.

10 So there is going to be some instances

11 where maybe some of these other things identified as

12 contests, tournaments and giveaway programs are not

13 funded by the players' money.

14 MS. THOMAS: I think Kathi explained it.

15 Then that would fall under the gaming promotion section.

16 If it's not dealing specifically with the player-funded

17 dollars, then it would fall under this other section

18 (g).

19 MR. FISHER: Just the next section in the

20 document.

21 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

22 MR. WEST: It would fall under what?

23 MR. FISHER: 543.10.

24 MR. WHEATLEY: I think it can make it a

25 little bit confusing, because how do you determine what

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1 tournament is coming out of -- I mean, most tournaments

2 are player funded, but they aren't necessarily player

3 funded out of the progressive pool that's there, they're

4 player funded through an entry buy-in. So which section

5 does it fall in? In that case, it is player funded.

6 Does it fall under 543.9 or does it fall under 543.10?

7 So I think it can be a little confusing.

8 MR. WILSON: And I might point out in

9 that regard, we have run across this same issue, where

10 one section prescribes one way of doing something and

11 another section prescribes a different way of doing

12 something, but there is not a good delineation between

13 this section means these types of things and this

14 section means this.

15 And as I look at the document 543.9, it

16 does reference a number of places where it's

17 referencing, depending on the type of promotion or

18 payout, the different sections of the document.

19 So there is a reference to 543.14, when

20 gaming promotions are used in conjunction with Class II,

21 gaming controls should be established with payouts in

22 accordance with 543.14, but then there is another

23 section in the same document that says when gaming

24 promotions are used in conjunction with Class II gaming,

25 then controls must be established for auditing and

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1 accounting in accordance with 543.19.

2 So what it appears to me is that to

3 effectively use this document, the -- it's in the

4 guidance where the cross-referencing exists to the

5 different components that I think they're trying to

6 exist or -- and again, this is where I think the

7 confusion is going to be with this document, is that the

8 standard -- the standard itself is not going to point

9 you to all the places where the standard envisions the

10 controls may exist to meet the standard, but the

11 guidance document points you to a number of different

12 places that you have to take into account in order to

13 get to the necessary controls to meet the standard.

14 And so that's -- that's the mechanics of

15 how this document works, which is different than the way

16 the MICS (inaudible), because in the current world of

17 the MICS, everything is kind of grouped and laid out

18 together, that you see the whole component right there,

19 and you're not necessarily referencing other sections of

20 the MICS to answer the fundamental question that the

21 control standard is trying to achieve.

22 I don't know if that helps or not, but --

23 MR. FISHER: All right. So do we need to

24 make any changes to this section or to the guidance, or

25 is it good the way it is?

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1 MR. WILSON: I have to say, again, that I

2 think that if -- I mean, NIGC has identified, in my

3 mind, a risk that appears not to be maybe mitigated.

4 And maybe it is or it isn't, but because of the way the

5 document is laid out, it's not maybe apparently -- it's

6 just not readily apparent.

7 But again, if we're going to spend

8 time -- it seems to me that we should document the fact

9 that there appears to be an issue, that there is a risk

10 that is not captured. And maybe it is being captured,

11 but we're going to spend a lot of time trying to

12 determine the format of this document to answer that

13 question. And I would say that the objective is we need

14 to ensure that that risk is being mitigated somewhere in

15 either the standard or the document. But I'm not sure

16 how we get -- there is something that we're even able to

17 decide for purposes of what we're discussing.

18 And I say that because there is no

19 guarantee that this document is going to look the way

20 that it looks today. And while we may all conclude that

21 there is a change that needs to be made today to make it

22 more clearer for purposes of our deliberation, the fact

23 of the matter is this may all change when it goes

24 through the format of how is it going to look in a

25 regulatory structure.

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1 MR. WEST: I'm still trying to make my

2 point, and I don't think I'm a good communicator.

3 My point is, this section with the

4 lead-in implies that this only applies to situations

5 where money is taken out of promotional pots and pools

6 and used in contests, tournaments and giveaways. So

7 what do you do with a regular promotional pool? There

8 is no guidance for just a plain old bad beat situation.

9 This is very specific toward that.

10 MR. WILSON: Yeah, this is specific to

11 patron-funded promotions. At least the standard is

12 specific to patron-funded promotions.

13 MR. WEST: Used in contests, tournaments

14 and giveaways only. It's very specific to that.

15 MR. McGHEE: But if you take that for

16 so-and-so out like we discussed, then it becomes broad

17 to be considered whenever there is a promotional pool

18 involved, right?

19 MR. FISHER: Right. So what I hear,

20 that's not the intention, is to limit it to only

21 contests --

22 MR. WEST: Well, that's the way it reads.

23 MR. FISHER: So if you take it out of the

24 heading -- so I'm hearing two things. The heading

25 implies that it only applies to those sections. So if

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1 you take it out of the heading, maybe you've addressed

2 that, and that there is nothing in the guidance to

3 address the more general situations that Rest has

4 described.

5 MR. WEST: Exactly.

6 MR. FISHER: So you could review the

7 guidance and think about whether there are changes to be

8 made in the guidance or whether it covers, in your view,

9 the situation, the more general situations that Rest has

10 described.

11 Dan?

12 MR. McGHEE: Maybe a suggestion, and

13 I'm -- we don't have card games, so it's really hard for

14 me to imagine what you're talking about sometimes. But

15 maybe if we do something like we did last time, where a

16 smaller group of people who do have these card games and

17 deal with this and understand what he's saying at our

18 break or lunch could get together with Rest, like we did

19 with Nimish that time, and try to fix this problem in a

20 smaller group and come back with a suggestion, whether

21 it be in the guidance documents or whatever, that they

22 can agree on. And he can be there to advise. Because

23 I'm thinking you take that out and it fixes everything,

24 and I'm obviously not getting it.

25 MR. FISHER: There is no easy fix to

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1 address these concerns.

2 MR. WILSON: I would move that there is a

3 small caucus that is identified to discuss this issue

4 amongst the folks that have the concern, because

5 otherwise we're going to spend time at no resolution.

6 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: And the

7 chances are there are other documents that will come up.

8 So we're going to volunteer you for that committee

9 tomorrow afternoon, Dan.

10 (Simultaneous discussion.)

11 MR. WEST: What about striking everything

12 after promotional pots and pools in the heading? I

13 mean, this thing is dragging on, you know. In my

14 opinion, we're taking up too much time on topics that,

15 you know, we could probably take care of and move

16 forward.

17 MR. FISHER: So that portion of the

18 heading, the "such as" part, strike that?

19 MR. CULLOO: We did that yesterday

20 anyway. We already agreed to that yesterday.

21 MR. McGHEE: We didn't vote on it. It

22 was suggested.

23 MR. FISHER: So --

24 MR. McGHEE: So the recommendation would

25 be to strike that and maybe it would address further in

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1 the guidance documents that concern.

2 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: That

3 issue.

4 MR. MORGAN: I'm going to reiterate one

5 more time. Class II card games are played differently

6 in every jurisdiction based on state regulations. If

7 you get too specific, even in your guidance document,

8 that the NIGC says the safe harbor is to do it A and the

9 state disagrees with you and says it's B, and therefore

10 it's a Class III game and now you owe me money, you're

11 going to cause a lot of intended consequences. Be very

12 careful what you tinker with here, because every

13 jurisdiction runs cards a little bit differently.

14 I know Rest keeps on saying bad beat. We

15 specifically stayed away from those types of words

16 because we didn't want what you named an activity

17 dictating how you treated the activity. Tread lightly

18 as you go down that road, would be my advice.

19 MR. McGHEE: But does removing the rest

20 of that heading affect that?

21 MR. MORGAN: No, no. You're talking

22 about going back into the guidance documents and being

23 more specific and delineating out. We may be having

24 unintended consequences in jurisdictions that are

25 running Class II. If you cross that line, the state is

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1 going to say you owe me money now.

2 MR. WHEATLEY: But if that goes in the

3 guidance documents, then that tribe doesn't have to

4 adopt those particular guidance if it conflicts with

5 their state law.

6 MR. MORGAN: They don't, but that's the

7 safe harbor. That's what I worry about. If the NIGC

8 says if you do it this way you're good and the state

9 says if you do it that way you're not good, you may put

10 a tribe in a conundrum. So you have to be very clear on

11 your guidance about options, that cultured environment,

12 how do you do it differently.

13 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: That's a

14 good point, Matt.

15 MR. MORGAN: That's the word.

16 MR. FISHER: So we have the change to the

17 standard in terms of the heading. Do you want to say in

18 terms of something about don't mess with the guidance to

19 mess us up or --

20 MS. LASH: Well, why don't you just say

21 you have to comply with the law of the state and have

22 that language in there?

23 MR. MORGAN: Please see definition of

24 Class II again, the same thing we did in bingo. I know

25 you want to add more to it, you want to do more, but the

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1 statute is very specific on what Class II is. And when

2 you start messing with the statute, you have lots of

3 unintended consequences.

4 MR. WILSON: Well, is what you're saying,

5 Matthew, that the -- as I understand what you're saying

6 is that the particular state's control of that game

7 overrides whatever NIGC may or may not say?

8 MS. HAMEL: No.

9 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: It can't

10 be in conflict.

11 MR. MORGAN: It can't be in conflict with

12 what the state does.

13 MR. WILSON: So if it just says that,

14 then isn't that the issue, that, you know, promotions,

15 progressive pots and pools, whatever, blah-blah-blah,

16 but cannot be in conflict with?

17 MR. CALLAGHAN: Your compact addresses

18 both.

19 MR. WILSON: Yeah.

20 MR. CALLAGHAN: Then would it not be,

21 under the current decision, because now it's a compact

22 issue, a quasi Class III, even though it's not, then

23 would the NIGC be able to come in and audit that?

24 Again, going with Matthew's point, it's a

25 slippery slope.

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1 MR. WEST: Well, most times it's not

2 covered by a compact, it's Class II.

3 MR. MORGAN: Oklahoma, it's all compact.

4 MR. WEST: I know it's Class III in

5 Oklahoma. Every state is different.

6 I tend to think that the heading, as

7 originally proposed, might come in conflict with some of

8 the jurisdictions that don't allow promotional pots to

9 be used in contests, tournaments and giveaways. So

10 that's probably helping with your argument right there.

11 MR. FISHER: Okay, we fixed the heading.

12 I'm pretty sure when we go around the table, changing

13 the heading is not going to be a problem. So then the

14 question is does this capture the note to NIGC about

15 what the guidance should be, or is there something else

16 we need to say here?

17 So that's kind of what I hear as we were

18 going around talking about the guidance.

19 Let's just wait for Matthew and Kathi to

20 get back here. Let's take a quick short pause here for

21 a moment.

22 Matt, can you check the screen and see if

23 that captures it enough? Mostly?

24 MR. MORGAN: (Nods head.)

25 MR. WILSON: I need to ask a question of

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1 an advisor back here.

2 MR. FISHER: Let's take a five-minute

3 pause here for a second and go off the record.

4 (Recess.)

5 MR. FISHER: All right. So I know over

6 the break, people have been talking about the -- how to

7 frame the recommendation on the guidance. And so what's

8 up on the screen are two different variations. And so

9 I've heard a lot of people say this one should be

10 changed by taking out that, and so that's what this one

11 is.

12 So there is the options for you about

13 which one works or if we need to do something

14 differently.

15 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: I like (c).

16 MR. MORGAN: I agree, I like (c).

17 MS. THOMAS: (c).

18 MR. FISHER: Yeah, I kind of figured

19 people were going to coalesce around (c). Should we

20 test it or wait for Leo and Daniel to get back?

21 MR. RAMOS: Matthew can speak for Daniel.

22 MS. LASH: He's got two arms. One is

23 Daniel's.

24 MR. FISHER: So we might as well do both

25 things at the same time. Let's just get rid of that and

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1 then we can do that, which is just to confirm to strike

2 the heading. Let's see if we can do both things.

3 So if you agree with those two changes,

4 striking the heading and the note to NIGC as set forth

5 on the screen, raise your hand.

6 Good. Great. All right. So is that

7 enough of 543.9(i)?

8 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

9 the last two comparisons of this section were sections

10 that were deleted. And I just -- probably a quick

11 understanding of why would be very helpful.

12 MR. WEST: I have a comment on the

13 (i)(2), at least once a week increases or decreases, if

14 we're to that point in the standards.

15 MR. FISHER: Say that again, Rest? Where

16 are you?

17 MR. WEST: It's under promotions, pots

18 and giveaways. It's number two, at least once a week

19 increases.

20 MR. FISHER: Okay.

21 MR. McGHEE: What's the question?

22 MR. WEST: I would just recommend that be

23 revised, because some readers may interpret the standard

24 that they only have to update their promotional pots and

25 pools balances once a week, where it should be any time

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1 that they have increases or decreases, at least on a

2 gaming day. For every gaming day where they have an

3 increase or decrease, the balance should be updated to

4 reflect the proper balance.

5 MR. McGHEE: What you're asking, as far

6 as being updated, is the same as being verified and

7 reconciled?

8 MR. WEST: Yeah, yeah. And it's

9 typically displayed in the card room, the balance of the

10 promotional pot, or should be.

11 MR. FISHER: Kathi?

12 MS. HAMEL: I think the intent of the

13 standard was the review and not the daily posting,

14 because it talks about being verified, supported by

15 documentation, recorded and reconciled.

16 MR. McGHEE: Is there anywhere that does

17 discuss the daily part of it? Maybe in the guidance

18 documents.

19 MS. HAMEL: Not specifically. I believe

20 it's in the guidance.

21 MR. WHEATLEY: Regardless, it probably

22 should still be audited and verified any time there is

23 an activity.

24 MR. WEST: I mean, that's the only time

25 you can be accurate, as far as posting.

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1 MR. WHEATLEY: Well, I think Matthew had

2 made mention there may be properties that only operate

3 those games Thursday through Saturday. So there would

4 be no need to audit or reconcile on a Monday, Tuesday,

5 Wednesday. If you put in daily or weekly, then that --

6 MR. McGHEE: I think it says at least

7 once a week, meaning if you do it more, then you should

8 do it more, because it's a minimum regulation here. At

9 least once a week you should do it. But as a practice,

10 you should do it every day. But when you put it in

11 here, you put down the least amount, the minimum. That

12 doesn't mean you shouldn't do it every day, and not

13 every day if you don't play it every day. So that's why

14 it's vague to say at least once a week.

15 MR. FISHER: Matthew?

16 MR. MORGAN: This is what we struggled

17 with in the group work, whether to define it daily,

18 weekly, shift because of some of these instances of when

19 you do it. Because I think everybody agrees with that

20 concept, you know, when there are changes, increase,

21 decrease, you do need to verify. It was a matter of how

22 do you capture that idea at a minimum standard to make

23 sure that, you know, you're not telling somebody to do

24 something and confusing them when you didn't have

25 activity. And that went to being procedurally

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1 descriptive of so I'm really going to have to -- you

2 know, making sure that somebody didn't say, okay, I'm

3 going to have to go in and do this even a day when that

4 wasn't touched.

5 MR. WHEATLEY: I think Rest's language

6 handles that appropriately, if you just say any time

7 there is an activity.

8 MR. WEST: Again, I'm trying to be an

9 advocate for the small gaming activities that don't have

10 the expertise of others in this room that will take this

11 literally and say we only have to do this once a week.

12 Of course, the bad beat pot may go up and down. You

13 want to have the correct amount posted in your card room

14 or you're going to get into a lot of issues with your

15 players. I mean, they're the worst people in the world

16 to deal with, maybe except for the OTD players.

17 MR. McGHEE: What about at the end of a

18 gaming day? Because if you just say whenever activity

19 happens, that means like every hour.

20 MR. FISHER: Right.

21 MR. McGHEE: That's where the question

22 came? Is it the end of a shift? Is it the end of the

23 game? Is it once a day? So if we just say as the

24 activity occurs, that would be good. But I mean, does

25 card games operate the same way as like a gaming day, at

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1 the end of the gaming day? If you only played three

2 times that week, you only have to do it three times that

3 week because it's the end of your gaming day. So just

4 say at the end of the gaming day.

5 (Simultaneous discussion.)

6 MR. CULLOO: That's not correct, either,

7 because that's verified by the accounting department,

8 also. And it should be the start of the next gaming day

9 where you increase your pot. So it's really the start

10 of the next gaming day.

11 MR. McGHEE: So what would you say there?

12 MS. HAMEL: It needs a new standard.

13 MR. CULLOO: Because he's right, the

14 players will know, they'll come in the next day and say

15 that pool hasn't increased.

16 MR. WEST: If you're showing $25,000 on

17 your bad beat and it gets hit and they say, well, we

18 haven't reconciled it for a few days, I guarantee you're

19 going to get some bad --

20 MR. CULLOO: I'm just saying that

21 typically, I wouldn't allow my poker room manager to do

22 that. That has to be verified, an amount, by the

23 accounting account.

24 MR. WEST: It goes to the soft count.

25 MR. McGHEE: So give us something to put

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1 in here to fix it. What should the --

2 MR. CULLOO: Again, another thing is if

3 your poker room opens before the start of soft count the

4 next day or doesn't close, that doesn't fit that

5 standard, either.

6 MR. MORGAN: That's the trouble we had.

7 Because if you default back to the TGRA says what you

8 can do at minimum, it's at least a week. I think it's

9 one of those areas that we probably, my recollection, we

10 had to compromise on, because how do you capture and fit

11 every jurisdiction minimum.

12 (Simultaneous discussion.)

13 MR. McGHEE: I think you could leave

14 it -- well, you could put it in here and maybe even

15 leave it like it is, but definitely -- because it says

16 at least once a week, but in your guidance document you

17 should explain it out. But if you're playing cards just

18 a day prior to, you should do this or whatever. Because

19 like you said, it's going to be different at every

20 property as how to how they play it.

21 MR. FISHER: Right. So if I'm hearing

22 this correctly, it's an instance in which there is

23 agreement about what you need to do. What the tricky

24 part is is capturing in the language all the different

25 variations.

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1 And so you might just say either address

2 those -- you know, figure out a way to change the

3 language to address the variations at a conceptual

4 level, or do it through the guidance or through the

5 regulation and then not try to mess with the language

6 or --

7 MR. McGHEE: Well, if you take out at

8 least once a week, take that out, and just say increases

9 and decreases to the promotional pool shall be verified,

10 and just say shall be done, period, it doesn't say when.

11 But in your guidance document, when you're explaining

12 it, you might do it when you would more do it at a

13 property. But maybe just take out the time frame

14 altogether so it doesn't say every day or once a week,

15 it says you have to do it.

16 MR. CULLOO: I think that's a good

17 recommendation, actually.

18 MR. McGHEE: Just start with increases.

19 MR. FISHER: And then include in the

20 guidance document --

21 MS. HAMEL: A best practice.

22 MR. FISHER: -- a best practice.

23 MR. McGHEE: Yeah, a best practice of how

24 to do that.

25 MR. FISHER: Okay. Does that work?

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1 MR. CALLAGHAN: The inference drawn, if

2 you were to take a -- without that being in the guidance

3 area, the inference drawn from (2) is that 100 percent

4 of every dollar that goes into that promotional pool is

5 going to be added to bad beat. If you go any more

6 specific than that, it's going to go contrary to how

7 some people practice.

8 So for example, if the house seeded

9 $10,000 of bad beat, the determination was they were

10 going to get that money back before. Incrementally, 50

11 cents out of every dollar could be going back to repay

12 the house seeding, or you could have a house that said

13 administrative cost, I'm going to take ten cents out of

14 every dollar. So not every whole dollar may necessarily

15 be going into that bad beat.

16 Again, as I mentioned, I think this is a

17 more of a revenue audit rather than an operational

18 audit. Revenue audit needs to go in and tie it to the

19 cent, to the penny, but let's not get involved in how

20 it's incremented to the bad beat.

21 MR. McGHEE: So does (2) work?

22 MR. CALLAGHAN: I support that.

23 MR. McGHEE: I hope we don't ever get

24 card games at our place. It sounds way too complicated.

25 Don't put that down now.

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1 MR. FISHER: LOL.

2 MR. CULLOO: Daniel McGhee.

3 MR. McGHEE: LOL, LOL.

4 MR. FISHER: Okay. So let's test these

5 two changes here. So if you support the changes as

6 described on the screen, raise your hand.

7 Okay. So I guess that means we probably

8 took care of all of -- we didn't actually test the rest

9 of 543(i), but I'm guessing that -- were there other

10 questions in there?

11 MR. McGHEE: With the taking out of the

12 "such as" contest, did we test that?

13 MR. FISHER: We did test that and we're

14 done. What we didn't kind of test was that stuff.

15 So is there more in 543 in (i) or should

16 we just test this and get ready to move on to the next

17 section?

18 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

19 from 15 on in the comparison document there is two

20 sections that we had just highlighted that were deleted.

21 And we're pretty confident, these were moved to other

22 sections?

23 MS. HAMEL: (Nods head.)

24 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: So we're

25 good, we don't need to discuss those.

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1 MR. FISHER: Okay. So then let's test

2 the language that's the rest of 543.9(i). That's the

3 TGWG version up there. If you support that, raise your

4 hand.

5 Is that it for card games? There we go.

6 The whole thing is yellow.

7 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: May I

8 make a suggestion?

9 MR. FISHER: Yes.

10 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

11 we're scheduled to go back into pull tabs. Since we've

12 been beating up promotions here --

13 MR. McGHEE: Go to promotions since we're

14 in that frame of mine.

15 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: And then

16 go back to pull tabs after that.

17 MR. FISHER: Sure. So we're going to

18 jump on the agenda, we're going to go to 543.10. 543.10

19 is Tab E, I believe. So it should just follow that

20 after -- yeah, Tab E in the notebooks.

21 This is a similar issue here. So did

22 anything we did on the card games discussion about the

23 progressive pots and pools inform the comment that you

24 have down here about the implication of this standard

25 provision? Do you still have a problem with it or not a

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1 problem? Does your comment still stand?

2 So I'm looking at the bottom of page one

3 on the comparison document where it has the NIGC comment

4 in there.

5 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

6 the comment that we had for this was that the guidance

7 document needs to be a little clearer.

8 MR. FISHER: So we'll go to Tom and then

9 Dan. Go ahead, Tom.

10 MR. WILSON: So the second comment, the

11 effective -- the second comment that NIGC has talks

12 about the new conclusion of a stand-alone gaming

13 promotion section implies the standards will apply to

14 all promotions provided by a gaming operation. That was

15 the intent, is it not?

16 MS. HAMEL: If the funds come from the

17 gaming operations that fund the promotion. So you have

18 control.

19 MR. McGHEE: I know there was a lot of

20 discussion during the meeting, because, if I understand

21 it right, there was nothing that addressed how to handle

22 all the promotions that were happening at casinos on the

23 floor, whether it be a giveaway or drawing or whatever.

24 And it came back to if you have a promotion or drawing

25 or anything and it's not done right or people are

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1 cheating or whatever, that it affects the integrity of

2 the gaming establishment. And there was nothing in

3 place for commissions to even say, hey, we should

4 have -- we need to regulate that kind of activity. And

5 a lot of -- most of the commissions were doing it, but

6 they had nothing backing it up.

7 So that's why a section was mentioned,

8 because our thinking was that we would get a promotion

9 and we would read it to make sure certain rules were in

10 there about how you're going to do this drawing and how

11 you're going to do that, but if they ever wanted to say

12 you don't have the authority, it needed to be addressed,

13 because there were so many promotions happening. We get

14 like three a month.

15 So we wanted something in the standards

16 to address that hey, promotions need to be regulated

17 and, you know, if you're going to have a drum even, is

18 it under security? Is it surveillance? Who is drawing

19 it? Are you drawing it with a family member? Those

20 would be your guidance. Obviously, it needed to be

21 addressed. That's why it's put in here. So it's just

22 promotion by the gaming establishment.

23 MR. MORGAN: This was a contentious

24 discussion at the work group, because there are people

25 within the group that took the view that NIGC, you have

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1 very limited authority and your limitations only extend

2 to gaming funds, not everything that happens within the

3 casino is in your purview. While it may be in the

4 TGRA's purview, it's not within your purview, and these

5 are federal minimum standards. There are other folks

6 that took the view if it's happening in the gaming

7 facility, no matter what, I would like rules to address

8 it.

9 What you see there may -- it may shift

10 back and forth because, again, we had different elements

11 in the argument. But we did define what gaming

12 promotion was. It is in the definitions, what is a

13 gaming promotion.

14 Gaming promotions is a type of marketing

15 activity conducted by a gaming operation which includes

16 two but not all three of the following elements: Prize,

17 chance, consideration. If you have all three, it

18 becomes a game, yes, sir.

19 MR. McGHEE: And there was a lot of legal

20 discussion about that I remember, but I know I

21 definitely -- from our point of view, gaming -- I mean,

22 if -- if a promotion is done, you know what I mean? And

23 it's some form of gaming, is it not?

24 I don't know. I just know that I think

25 from a Commission standpoint, that if your job is to

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1 protect the integrity of the gaming establishment and

2 you're holding promotions and you make sure all your

3 gaming machines and your card games are done fairly and

4 everything is done fairly but then you hold promotions

5 that aren't accountable to anybody and they're just done

6 however you want to, then no matter how you well you do

7 your card games and things you're still going to have --

8 your integrity is still going to be shot because you

9 cheat on that.

10 And I feel like that's always held on the

11 gaming floor, it's held with gaming funds, it's all

12 relating to gaming, it's to promote gaming. So that's

13 why I think it belongs in the regs somewhere.

14 MR. CULLOO: The comment I would make on

15 that, in our environment, where I'm at, we have a patron

16 dispute provision, where the patron can go to the

17 regulatory authority and initiate an investigation.

18 My problem is when people start using

19 words like "fair," who defines fair? If I'm in a small

20 facility and my players club personnel is a tribal

21 member and they draw -- and they're just drawing a name

22 out and their relatives play the game and it's all on

23 the up-and-up and they pull out a family member, is that

24 a fair promotion? Is there anything wrong with that?

25 MR. McGHEE: Well, see, when it's listed

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1 here, it's listed -- if you just look at it, it says

2 there has to be rules. So your TGRA would decide the

3 rules of your promotion.

4 MR. CULLOO: I think the operations

5 should determine rules and submit them for review. But

6 again, you made a comment personally that if you drew a

7 family -- a family member drew another family member's

8 name.

9 MR. McGHEE: As an example.

10 MR. CULLOO: But as an example, what if

11 that fact does occur? Would the rules state, in your

12 vision, that that can't happen?

13 MR. McGHEE: No. If it were me at my

14 establishment, if you were going to allow that to

15 happen, what are your rules behind that to make sure

16 it's not questionable.

17 (Simultaneous discussion.)

18 MR. CULLOO: So in other words, the

19 drawing is on the camera.

20 MR. McGHEE: Even though they drew out

21 their sister --

22 MR. FISHER: Wait, wait. Sorry, you have

23 to have one person at a time.

24 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Your direct family

25 members cannot participate in those kind of promotions.

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1 They specifically state those kind of things.

2 MR. McGHEE: And if ours didn't, I would

3 just need to know as the TGRA. So if I got a complaint,

4 I can just say, well, maybe he drew out his sister but I

5 can assure you that because of the standards and

6 everything that was in place that it was coincidence,

7 that he did not cheat, it was done fair, because we have

8 standards in place to prevent cheaters.

9 MR. CULLOO: At our facility, most of our

10 club members and a lot of our gamblers are tribal

11 members. There is no way to come up with a standard

12 like that. But a regulatory authority could say, well,

13 I think, like you, that's a reasonable rule to have,

14 that tribal members -- family members can't win a

15 drawing. Well, how could I possibly, as an operator,

16 put that standard in place in my specific circumstance?

17 I can't do it.

18 MR. WHEATLEY: We define it as immediate

19 family member and then we define what an immediate

20 family is.

21 MR. CULLOO: But again, even immediate,

22 I've got some tribal members that are really strong

23 players. And why should I punish them? Because, again,

24 the role of our casino, also, is to provide tribal

25 employment.

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1 MR. WHEATLEY: Our definition of

2 immediate is very narrow as in under the same roof.

3 MR. CULLOO: But again, I could tell you

4 I could have a son or a daughter --

5 MR. McGHEE: But that's all subject -- I

6 mean, as far as the regulation, it doesn't prevent or

7 make you do anything. All it says is you have to have

8 rules, you have to have the accounting for the promotion

9 to make sure it's tracked, the money you're giving away

10 or whatever, and then it says TGRA approval, whatever

11 that be, meaning if they allow immediate family or don't

12 allow immediate family or whatever.

13 There is only three things it does in

14 this standard. It says you have to have rules, you have

15 to account for the money, and your TGRA needs to approve

16 it. So it doesn't get into the details of it must have

17 a camera, it must have this. It just says make sure

18 it's all done on a level they're comfortable with to

19 ensure the integrity of the facility.

20 MR. CULLOO: So I understand the

21 operations are going to write the rules, but I also know

22 when they're submitted, I could have a commissioner say

23 I don't like that rule. And operationally, it's a bad

24 decision on their part.

25 MR. FISHER: Matthew?

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1 MR. MORGAN: You all's discussion kind of

2 gets into my point, is why it's very important sometimes

3 that we keep in mind that these are going to be federal

4 minimum rules that go out in the country. And

5 sometimes, you know, especially in the standard, we're

6 not talking about what's best practice, we're not even

7 talking about what each individual jurisdiction does

8 either operational or regulatory, we're saying

9 generally, as a federal minimum rule, what should you

10 have in gaming promotions.

11 Now, then we'll provide a guidance

12 document, hopefully NIGC will have a guidance document

13 saying this is one way to do it, if you do it this way

14 we're okay with it. But even down further down at a

15 local level, there are a lot of controls that we get

16 into. And I think that was a discussion we got into

17 yesterday. A lot of times when we publish these the way

18 the commission is set up, it's they're not a minimum,

19 this is a rule now.

20 So hopefully this is broad enough. You

21 know, so it tells you three things you have to do; you

22 have to have the rules and you have to account for the

23 money and you have to have TGRA approval. Then, you

24 know, the inference in what you're telling local

25 jurisdictions is you need to go out and flesh out how

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1 you do that, what are those rules, if you have specific

2 prohibitions on who can participate. But you do need

3 some controls around gaming promotions at a federal --

4 at a federal level minimally.

5 MR. WILSON: I can tell you that we do

6 lots of promotions. And under our compacts, we're

7 required to approve. But to Leo's point, what does TGRA

8 approval mean? In my perspective, it just means I'm

9 approving not that you're having a promotion but that

10 you're -- you have rules in place and that it's --

11 everything is properly accounted for.

12 I will tell you, however, that that,

13 depending on the TGRA, that can be -- this wording could

14 be perceived that we -- you know, the TGRA actually has

15 to approve the promotion, the business aspect of it,

16 which is not what the intent is.

17 So I recognize your concern, because we

18 deal with that issue. And we're very careful to ensure

19 that we are not -- we are not approving the promotion in

20 terms of whether it's a good idea to give away a great

21 prize or not, we're merely making sure that there is

22 rules in place and that there is accounting for the

23 dollars expended on the promotion.

24 So to me, this says what it's supposed to

25 say. But I think the term, the TGRA approval, because

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1 words have meaning, can get misconstrued as to what is

2 it that we're asking the TGRA to approve. Are we asking

3 them to approve the actual that you can have a

4 promotion, or are we asking the TGRA that they're just

5 approving the rules? And so inherent with this approval

6 comes, well, at what point is the TGRA overstepping

7 operationally into a promotion as opposed to just the

8 purpose of what is that approval.

9 So I guess what I'm saying is I think

10 that there is a valid concern that with the term TGRA

11 approval, what really are they approving. Because I

12 have been down this very road. Well, you're approving

13 the promotion. Well, no, we're not really approving the

14 promotion, we're just approving the rules, if you will.

15 So this is a problematic area, in my

16 mind.

17 MR. McGHEE: We look at it -- when we

18 look at it, we only look at the rules or the controls

19 around the promotion, not the promotion. Because you'll

20 get it all the time, well, like that's a stupid rule.

21 You can't really do anything about it. That's your job.

22 You know what I mean?

23 MR. CULLOO: But his point, someone can

24 interpret it as saying we're approving the promotion.

25 MR. McGHEE: What I'm thinking of, where

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1 it says controls must be established in a manner to

2 design, blank, blank, blank, blank, and then (3) is to

3 not -- is to include but not be limited to TGRA

4 approval, maybe you could just add TGRA approval of

5 controls. Because the only thing we should be looking

6 at as TGRA is the controls designed to

7 prevent unauthorized access, cheating, misappropriation

8 forgery, theft or fraud. So it limits the TGRA to say

9 are you only looking at those things, not should I give

10 away sundaes or should I give away watches.

11 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: There are also

12 applicable laws or regulations if you have established

13 controls already, like are they in line with your

14 established, you know, controls, internal controls,

15 system of internal controls.

16 MR. McGHEE: The problem is to try to

17 alleviate his concern.

18 MR. MORGAN: I agree with you. There are

19 certain jurisdictions where there -- I will say this.

20 Generally, you know, there is an antagonistic view, at

21 least we see some internal struggle between operators

22 and regulators. Every property everywhere, operators

23 say regulators, you infringe too much, regulators say,

24 you're going too far. That's just naturally the way

25 it's set up, that's the dynamic. At each individual

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1 jurisdiction, sometimes that dynamic is more prominent

2 than other jurisdictions. That's just inherent.

3 If you try to address that and you say

4 only controls, what you're doing is you're telling the

5 NIGC what the local gaming commission can do and can't

6 do. You can't go into that type of detail at a federal

7 level. Whatever best practices is is something

8 different.

9 And to address Tom's on the TGRA

10 approval, in the guidance documents, we do put in there

11 that TGRAs may find it's most efficient to approve

12 promotions by type or template and review these things

13 within it. So we kind of tell them what we think you

14 should be looking at.

15 MR. CULLOO: Where are you looking at?

16 MR. MORGAN: The guidance document on

17 (g).

18 Again, that's guidance. If your TGRA

19 says I'm going to approve every one of them, and going

20 back to risk, and that risk is too much there, that is

21 their prerogative if that is how their statute is set up

22 and they have that authority. Whether the operation

23 agrees or disagrees is something different.

24 MR. CULLOO: But why would you not say

25 approve the gaming promotional rules and not the program

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1 itself? Not the actual promotion, but approve the

2 rules.

3 MR. MORGAN: Because NIGC has the ability

4 to approve your gaming ordinance, which the tribal

5 government, as a sovereign government, sets up, whoever

6 has that authority. For them to come back in by

7 regulation and try to dictate what the authority of the

8 TGRA is through a regulation is illegal. You cannot

9 limit those in that way.

10 Their job is to pass judgment on the

11 ordinance. The tribal government then makes that

12 decision who has that authority. In some places, it may

13 not be the TGRA. That's the tribal government's

14 prerogative as a sovereign government. And some of

15 those things are just -- they are different at the local

16 level, and some of those things you have to work out.

17 MR. CULLOO: Well, this isn't about

18 conflict between TGRA and operations, it's about

19 understanding things they're not always trained to

20 understand, particularly when you start going into

21 calculations on how you get things, how you issue

22 things. It's not always that sense of they understand

23 how a promotion works. You can look at the rules and

24 say I don't think that's fair, and that's one thing, but

25 when you take the base of the program, the promotion

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1 sometimes, the understanding is just not there to make

2 an evaluation whether it is, quote unquote, fair or not.

3 MR. McGHEE: Well, and I think the intent

4 of this is not for TGRA to even approve your rules or

5 your promotion so much as it is, even though you don't

6 want to say it, is the control. Your rules are not

7 going to say where your drum should be and how many

8 observers you should have. That's not going to be in

9 your rules every time.

10 But as a TGRA, what I'm going to approve

11 are a list of controls that I think you should have in

12 place wherever you're going to have a drawing that

13 involves a drum. If you're going to have a drawing that

14 involves an automatic whatever, here are the controls

15 that have to be in place.

16 And when I get your promotion, I'm not

17 going to look at the rules, I'm just going to make sure

18 it met the controls that are already in place. You know

19 what I mean? And if I say no, then your job would be to

20 show me where I'm inadequate on the controls that you

21 said we had to follow. You know what I mean?

22 MR. CULLOO: So with that thought, you go

23 to what it says under gaming promotions, why could it

24 just not end at fraud and such controls and all that

25 stuff be included in the guidance document? Why do you

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1 have to put that there? Why can't it be in the guidance

2 document?

3 MR. MORGAN: That was minimally you have

4 to cover these three things, minimally. And how your

5 local TGRA interprets approval of what and where is the

6 prerogative of your local TGRA and what authority the

7 tribe has given it.

8 MR. FISHER: Tom?

9 MR. WILSON: You know, Matt, that point,

10 as I'm looking at this, I'm not sure that the TGRA

11 approval should be in the standard, because my tribe may

12 say that, as part of our ordinance, that we have to

13 approve promotions, but some other tribe may say, well,

14 the TGRA doesn't have to approve the promotions, you

15 know, somebody else does. And you mention that it may

16 not be the TGRA that approves the promotion.

17 I mean, the risk is that there is no

18 rules and there is no accounting for promotion. That's

19 what the standard is trying to address. But who

20 approves it, in my mind, is -- to be regulated at the

21 federal level, to say that the TGRA has to be the one to

22 approve it, I can tell you that wording, that TGRA

23 approval, brings in all kinds of debate and argument at

24 the tribal level, because it becomes a thing about,

25 well, the MICS say that the TGRA has to approve it. And

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1 is that really the intent or is the intent that you have

2 to have rules and you have to have accounting?

3 Now, if, locally, through your ordinance

4 or through local regulation, you want to adopt that it's

5 the TGRA who should approve that, then certainly you can

6 do that. But I'm just not sure that in this case at the

7 federal level mandating that the TGRA has to be the one

8 to approve it for promotions is necessarily -- makes the

9 most sense.

10 MR. MAGEE: Tom, under the heading gaming

11 promotions. If it was a promotion other than gaming, I

12 would probably agree. However, the heading has gaming

13 promotions. So therefore, it does follow under the

14 tribal regulator's purview.

15 MR. WILSON: But that is decided at

16 the -- you know, from your tribe, because a tribe may

17 have something else that approves that. And my concern

18 is that that word "approval" -- and I don't mean to keep

19 harping on this, but I have had this same discussion

20 over and over and over when there is a word like this

21 that talks about that TGRA has to approve it.

22 And unfortunately, you know, Daniel, I

23 hear too much about, well, the intent was and the intent

24 is. And that is just the kind of ambiguity that we get

25 into when we start talking about, well, what was the

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1 intent of the word "approval"? Well, at my property it

2 means this. Well, at my property it means that.

3 If that's where the approval should be

4 decided, then it should be at that level, and I don't

5 feel like it should be something that should be mandated

6 at the federal level.

7 MR. MORGAN: If you look back at TGRA and

8 how it's defined, it's defined by whoever the tribe

9 designates has authority. So it doesn't necessarily

10 have to be your gaming commission, they can say the

11 business council can approve this or promotions staff.

12 So we defined it broadly. It is made to

13 be set up to give you that flexibility. So whatever you

14 deem appropriate is approval at your place, whoever has

15 the unit, is the approval. If you want to say every hot

16 seat drawing is approved as long as you follow this

17 template, that's approval. If you say every approval

18 you want to have is hereby deemed approved until next

19 year, that's your prerogative.

20 MR. FISHER: So we got --

21 MR. WILSON: Why does the approval have

22 to be federal level?

23 MR. MORGAN: Because the document is set

24 up to give -- in Class II, the primary regulator is the

25 tribe. And that gives the authority to the tribe to

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1 make those decisions. They're just recognizing that's

2 where the primary authority is.

3 MR. FISHER: So we've got Jeff and then

4 Brian and then Daniel.

5 MR. WHEATLEY: I would argue that the

6 approval is for the controls of the promotion and not

7 the promotion itself. That's what it says right there,

8 such controls must include but not be limited to

9 following TGRA approval. We're not saying that TGRA has

10 to approve the promotion or the overall payback

11 percentage or the odds of the promotion, they have to

12 approve the controls of the promotion.

13 MR. FISHER: Brian?

14 MR. CALLAGHAN: Similar to the argument

15 you presented on the card games and it could be in

16 conflict with state laws, these aren't gaming

17 promotions, these are marketing promotions.

18 MR. MORGAN: I was going to go there.

19 MR. CALLAGHAN: If you want to call it a

20 gaming promotion, then maybe it could be construed in a

21 certain jurisdiction that this is, in fact, a lottery,

22 or are we getting involved in something that we're

23 not -- this is purely a marketing promotion because

24 you're drawing patrons in. And that's where you could

25 split the fine hair, why are you drawing the patrons in.

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1 So the heading there, to me, it's too much of a

2 challenge.

3 Now, what I agree with is certain

4 promotions are cash or cash-like events. For instance,

5 the barrel draws, they need to be taken into revenue

6 audit and accounted for, the total number, what went

7 into the drum, what came out of the drum, and how they

8 went into the drum and all that. I agree with that.

9 So I think what you're trying to do is,

10 one, support your brothers and sisters in the TGRAs in

11 saying that you've got this authority over these things.

12 You know, fortunately or unfortunately, even if you put

13 it in there, that may not get it. But to me, the

14 marketing promotion is a business decision. I take a

15 look at it from a fraud perspective and how we can

16 mitigate that.

17 So I don't know how we re-style this.

18 MR. FISHER: So we've got Daniel and then

19 back to Matthew.

20 MR. McGHEE: I get the point you're

21 making. I think if you take it out of here, it's

22 inherent anyway in the whole document.

23 MR. FISHER: What is?

24 MR. McGHEE: That the TGRA can have

25 approval of promotions, if they want. Because if you

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1 put it in the controls and your standards that I pass at

2 the local level and I say TGRA approval there, then it's

3 going to exist.

4 So I'm not opposed to it being there or

5 not being there, because whether it's there or not, it's

6 still there. You know what I mean? So it doesn't have

7 to be listed.

8 Yeah, what I'm going to do at my place is

9 I'm going to make sure it meets the controls. And then

10 if I put in my standards that we pass at the local level

11 that I have to sign off on it or the commission does,

12 then we will. If they don't want me to sign off on it

13 or they want me to review it, we go that way.

14 I'm okay with it not being there, TGRA

15 approval, because it can be -- I would say hate to be in

16 a situation if you did have a commission that said look,

17 it just says we just have to approve the promotion, and

18 I don't like it. You know what I mean?

19 So to keep it from being misinterpreted,

20 then, you know, strike it, because I think I have that

21 authority either way or can have that authority, if my

22 commission agrees with it.

23 MR. FISHER: Matthew, then Tom.

24 MR. MORGAN: I'll agree with you a little

25 bit, Daniel, on whether it's there or not. This was a

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1 little bit supported -- I agree with what you were

2 saying, Brian, to help TGRAs clearly recognize they have

3 that authority. And some of this, if you're having

4 local issues, back to training and technical assistance,

5 on where you should be looking from an agency, that's

6 probably helpful.

7 The other point that I'm going to bring

8 up, along with Brian, we had our conflict on what's a

9 marketing promotion and what's a gaming promotion. If

10 you read the definition of this gaming promotion, we are

11 going outside of probably what authority NIGC has,

12 because it's a question of when do you cross that line,

13 when does -- when does that money circulate enough where

14 it's de-identified, you know, when does it become a

15 gaming activity, when is it a marketing activity.

16 The way it currently reads, I agree with

17 you, we have given broad authority here at a federal

18 level to NIGC, which personally I would question whether

19 they actually have that statutory ability to look at.

20 The worry is within your gaming

21 operations at a local level, a lot of TGRAs say yes,

22 it's something I should be concerned with. I always

23 tell them I agree, you should be concerned with it at

24 your level. The question is is that dictated from a

25 federal level or is that a local issue that you go into

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1 as expanded beyond, because you get into that regulatory

2 versus business decision; who has that authority, what

3 type of promotion is it or is it not.

4 So I did want to bring that up to the

5 group to make sure -- like I said, it was a contentious

6 subject. You had people, and I think Daniel holds that

7 thought, it's in the gaming facility, operations does

8 it, it needs to be covered. There was just as many

9 people on the other side that said no, you need to be

10 clear. Where is that money generated from, what type of

11 promotion is that. And it's outside of this small box,

12 NIGC does not have that authority to be dictating rules

13 over those type of marketing promotions, because that's

14 only marketing, and therefore is outside their

15 jurisdiction.

16 MR. FISHER: Tom?

17 MR. WILSON: I think that, you know, the

18 concern is -- and I know in our state, our section on

19 promotions in the compact is one little paragraph. And

20 the primary role that we're supposed to play is to

21 ensure that a promotion is not otherwise a lottery,

22 because lotteries are regulated and promotions are not,

23 per se.

24 I think, actually -- you know, I'm in

25 agreement with Brian. And I think what NIGC in their

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1 comment is saying is that this probably shouldn't be in

2 there, either, that promotions are unique, different

3 from property to property. And my feeling is that if a

4 particular tribe feels like they need to regulate

5 promotions at a certain level, then that tribe can pass

6 a regulation to say, for our tribe, here is what we

7 think promotions have to meet or not meet.

8 But I'm just concerned that when you talk

9 about promotions, that's such a wide variety. And like

10 I say, at our property, we have hundreds of promotions

11 going on throughout the year.

12 The idea that there would be federal

13 intervention into a promotion, I can say, you know,

14 absolutely, right now, that I could not vote in favor,

15 in representing my tribe, to have that level of

16 intervention.

17 So I think for my tribe, the NIGC, if I

18 understand your comment, is that why is this even in

19 here at all.

20 MR. WEST: No. I mean, I think it needs

21 to be in there. I think promotions, contests,

22 tournaments are a frequent form of abuse. I think there

23 needs to be some wording in the MICS for that and some

24 standards in the MICS and some guidance in the MICS.

25 MR. CALLAGHAN: I also believe that there

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1 is people stealing towels. This is marketing, it's not

2 gaming. I can't support, will not support.

3 MR. McGHEE: But you're talking about,

4 okay, stealing towels is one thing, but as far as when

5 you're talking about the way in which you conduct a

6 game, whether it be called a promotion or whatever, if

7 I've entered into something, I played for something, my

8 name was put into this barrel because I played so much

9 money here, I want to know that it's being done fairly

10 or it's being done with rules and it's not been cheated,

11 because most of the time the promotions are because I

12 got so many points because I played so much money.

13 MR. CALLAGHAN: Then it becomes a

14 criminal matter.

15 (Simultaneous discussion.)

16 MR. FISHER: We need to have one person

17 talking at a time.

18 MR. CULLOO: I think what we're not

19 stating here is our guests and patrons are the better

20 reviewer of our promotions and rules than anyone in this

21 room, because they're certainly going to let us know

22 when these things aren't fair. Believe me, we get

23 comment cards; I don't think the rules would be should

24 this, I don't think the rules should be that way.

25 So I would destroy my business -- I

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1 understand what you're saying, Rest, that there are some

2 that don't do it right, but is that lack of just not

3 knowing how to design a promotion or is that outright

4 fraud? And my guests know what's fair and what's not

5 fair and let me know.

6 For me to even think about running a

7 promotion without clearly posted rules explaining that,

8 that would kill my business, my guests would just leave,

9 because we do a lot of promotions, like you, we do

10 hundreds of them.

11 So I think the market is going to

12 determine that more than this. I'm not going to support

13 this, either.

14 MR. McGHEE: They can do that for gaming

15 machines, too. They're going to know if the gaming

16 machine is not working right. So should we not have

17 regs because we're just going to wait for the customer

18 to tell us that's not working right? You could have the

19 same argument.

20 MR. FISHER: Matthew and John.

21 MR. MORGAN: To me, Daniel, there is a

22 clear difference between gaming related and marketing.

23 What the Tribal Gaming Work Group did is they did not

24 really delineate between the two because of how you

25 define gaming promotion.

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1 You know, we inherently said we're taking

2 in a non-gaming related market. And that's the question

3 that goes back to it's not that it's not a good idea to

4 do it, but does NIGC have the ability to enforce that

5 rule through a regulation? Because you get to the

6 slippery slope when you get to (inaudible) real quickly,

7 do you have that authority under IGRA to go in and not

8 only promulgate that regulation but to enforce that

9 regulation if something goes wrong.

10 This may be better served in a bulletin

11 from them to say hey, guys, this is a good idea to do,

12 this is a best practice, what bulletins are intended

13 for, guidance, and we think you should be doing it.

14 Because in my experience, 99.5 percent of the

15 jurisdictions, when NIGC issues a bulletin, follows it.

16 Those five percent that don't may or may not follow it

17 as a regulation anyway.

18 And that's where I think I'm in agreement

19 with Brian and Leo and these guys, that to give you

20 authority you don't have invites somebody to come in and

21 challenge this. And I am not prepared to support it if

22 I think we're setting up for a challenge right off the

23 bat.

24 If you want to somehow go in and

25 delineate between what is gaming and what is marketing,

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1 that's a different discussion. But as written, that

2 delineation needs to be made or it needs to come out.

3 Because to have the NIGC come in and look at my

4 marketing promotions, no matter what I want to do at a

5 local level as the commissioner, is very different when

6 these guys come in and say you're violating a federal

7 regulation, i.e. law, and I am going to bring an

8 enforcement action on you for violating this. That's --

9 MR. McGHEE: But we have rules against

10 comps, too. And that's -- there's federal rules against

11 comps. And that's not for regular gaming activities,

12 but it's related to gaming and it's related to gaming

13 money and how it's done and the appearance of

14 impropriety. There is rules and controls about that.

15 So when you're doing something like

16 promotions, there is the -- there can be the appearance

17 of impropriety. So we put rules in place for that. So

18 if that's the argument, why do we have rules for comps

19 or anything else?

20 MR. FISHER: So let's go to John and then

21 Tom.

22 MR. MAGEE: Well, I kind of agree with

23 Daniel on this. It seems like there has to be some sort

24 of rules covering gaming promotions or marketing

25 promotions.

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1 You know, generally, all our gaming --

2 marketing revenue comes from the gaming. The marketing

3 supports the gaming floor. It's a drive gaming

4 business. And to say that -- I think all it's just

5 saying is you're trying to limit the fraud and theft

6 that happens in promotions.

7 And Leo's point was, well, the players

8 are the best ones to determine whether a promotion is

9 being fair enough. Well, in our end, from my

10 standpoint, the players or the patrons are the ones who

11 are cheating and frauding the most, you know. That's

12 what you're trying to protect. You're trying to protect

13 the game so that the promotion is played fairly.

14 I'm not exactly buying Matthew's argument

15 that NIGC is going to step in and start auditing our

16 promotions and our marketing. I don't read that, I

17 don't get that from this. But I do believe that there

18 should be some sort of rules governing this.

19 MR. MORGAN: Federal or tribal? That's

20 my question, federal or tribal.

21 MR. MAGEE: I firmly believe that there

22 should be some sort of reference in the federal level

23 saying, hey, you need to have some sort of rules in

24 place.

25 MR. FISHER: So let's go to Tom.

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1 MR. WILSON: So just fundamentally, in my

2 TGO, my tribal ordinance, we have the authority to

3 promulgate regulations at the tribal level. I don't

4 know if everybody's ordinance allows that or not. And I

5 mean, certainly if -- if there are tribes that do not

6 allow that in their ordinance, then this could be

7 problematic, I suppose, from that standpoint.

8 But it seems to me that if we talk about

9 sovereignty, then this is a fundamental issue that -- I

10 don't need the Federal Government telling me that I need

11 to regulate promotions, per se. I'm not disagreeing,

12 myself, that there don't need to be controls about that,

13 but I have a mechanism to achieve that, you know,

14 currently.

15 So I'm not understanding -- my concern is

16 that I know that if this written the way that it is and

17 the way that it's in here it will open up a door,

18 potentially, for promotions now to come under the

19 auspices of NIGC. And we have an issue with the state

20 about that, as well, about the fact that -- and this is

21 why in our compact promotions there is just this tiny

22 little thing, because the real concern has to do with

23 lotteries versus promotions, because that has a very

24 distinct legal implication to it.

25 But I guess what I'm not getting is why

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1 this -- in this particular case, we're so adamant that

2 it -- that it has to be at the federal level dealing

3 with promotions that are predominantly marketing and

4 not gaming in nature. When I say "not gaming in

5 nature," if it were a lottery, then that's a gaming

6 activity. But generally, promotions are -- can be very

7 broad. And it just seems to me that that could be

8 regulated at the local level and not at the federal

9 level.

10 MR. FISHER: Leo?

11 MR. CULLOO: I just want to be clear on

12 something. When I said about the guest, I'm not

13 saying -- they don't control the controls. Some of the

14 rules they may comment on, that's what I meant, if they

15 felt the rules are unfair, not the controls. Because

16 you're right, the guests are more likely to manipulate a

17 promotion than any employee.

18 But again, I think it's important to

19 reemphasize that I don't think that has a place here. I

20 think locally, it's in the best interest of the tribe to

21 establish rules on that. But I think that should be

22 done at the local level, not at the federal level. I

23 just don't think it's appropriate.

24 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: So what

25 I'm hearing, there is some different opinions. And you

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1 know, I listened to Brian, Tom and Matt, and I can agree

2 with a lot of what you say. And then I can also listen

3 to John and Leo and Dan. Leo is kind of in the middle

4 of there sometimes, but I can agree with a lot of what

5 you're saying. So this area might be where we just

6 don't have a consensus on it. I understand that. There

7 was a couple of points I just want to be clear about.

8 So in this document, the TGRA approval, I

9 actually think the guidance documents do a pretty good

10 job of providing that this is just for approval of the

11 aspects of the promotion, not the business decision of

12 the promotion. Am I clear on that?

13 MR. MAGEE: Right.

14 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Really

15 our only -- outside of this question that we kind of

16 talked a little bit about, and I feel like this might be

17 something that you guys all want to handle, was the

18 accounting. And we actually think we probably should

19 wait until we get to the accounting section to raise

20 that. So we think it probably is something that NIGC

21 will want to look at, but it sounds like there is not a

22 clear consensus here, and we'll take that into

23 consideration.

24 MR. FISHER: So maybe before you conclude

25 that we can't get consensus, maybe there is something

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1 that we need to have some additional either off-line

2 discussions about how you might address this or --

3 because it sounds like the issues that have arisen in

4 the context of this discussion are similar issues that

5 arose in the TGWG discussions. And you found the

6 balance in this, to a certain extent, and so now those

7 issues are back, in terms of questioning the way you've

8 proposed to do it and even the inclusion of anything in

9 here in the first place.

10 So maybe what we should do is set up a

11 small group that continues this discussion, or we can

12 keep going with the full group.

13 Go ahead, Matthew.

14 MR. MORGAN: Going back to procedures, I

15 do think we -- you know, if not consensus, at some point

16 you may want a vote just so you're clear on what -- how

17 the group is divided. But this issue will come up

18 again. We do get to comps, Daniel brought that up. But

19 that's another area where this same type of discussion

20 came up of not a best practice, not a good idea, just at

21 what level is it appropriate -- who gets the ability to

22 write the rule and enforce the rule. Is that a federal

23 responsibility or is that a tribal responsibility? And

24 I mean, it's the same discussion that will come up in

25 comps.

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1 MR. FISHER: Okay. So the question of

2 the group is are we at a point where, because of the

3 previous discussions and everything that's been said

4 here, where -- that you want to test for consensus, and

5 if you don't have it then we move into the kind of

6 description of why there is no consensus, or do you want

7 to see if you can work towards finding something that

8 you can reach consensus on? So which way do you want to

9 go?

10 Daniel?

11 MR. McGHEE: Well, it would be different

12 if we were talking about a one-word thing, but what we

13 have is people either want it in or people don't want it

14 in. And you may not be able to come to some compromise

15 on that, because it's either all or nothing. It can't

16 be that if we take away TGRA approval, will that make

17 people happy, because the issue is in or not in.

18 So I don't know if consensus can be

19 reached, because there is no compromise between in and

20 out.

21 MR. FISHER: That's true. So do you want

22 to work on it or do you want to just conclude that

23 you're not going to get there?

24 MR. WILSON: I want to go on record

25 voting whether this is in or out.

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1 MR. FISHER: In or out. Okay. So

2 let's -- before we do that, Rest has got his hand up.

3 MR. WEST: To me, the question is -- and

4 I think part of the problem is the definition, is it

5 saying gaming promotion is marketing, it's a type of

6 gaming activity or something like.

7 It seems like you should have marketing

8 activities over here and gaming promotions over here and

9 there should be a line. If I'm sitting at a slot

10 machine and I'm pulling the handle, there is a hot seat

11 program going on, but I've got to be gaming to be

12 eligible for that. That appears to be something that

13 needs to be addressed, versus, you know, strict

14 marketing where you've got a drum and -- I mean, there

15 seems to be, to me, a difference between the two.

16 And what I'm hearing is Matthew thinks

17 that if you're sitting in a slot machine and a hot seat

18 promotion is going or something that maybe that's under

19 the NIGC's authority, whereas a strict marketing

20 activity may not be. So I'll leave this to Mike Hoenig.

21 MR. McGHEE: I think it comes under the

22 definition of two but not three elements. Because I

23 think that was discussed, and that's where it came from,

24 where it had to have two of these elements to make it a

25 gaming type of activity.

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1 MR. WEST: But if you read it, it says

2 gaming promotion. A lot of people are just going to

3 say, well, this is associated with gaming activities.

4 MR. FISHER: Okay. So Tom asked that we

5 actually test this provision right here. I guess it's

6 the whole -- is it the whole section or is it just this?

7 MR. MORGAN: The whole section.

8 MR. FISHER: 543.10. I'm just going to

9 cover that. That's what it is, right?

10 MR. WILSON: And the question that I'm

11 posing for a vote is should this even be in part of

12 the --

13 MS. LASH: Federal standards.

14 MR. WILSON: Yes.

15 MR. FISHER: So if you agree and support

16 including this provision in the recommendation and in

17 NIGC's regulations, raise your hand.

18 MR. McGHEE: If you support it being in

19 it, you say?

20 MR. FISHER: In, yes, in the

21 recommendation to NIGC and in NIGC's regulation.

22 MR. McGHEE: That there should be mention

23 of promotions?

24 MR. FISHER: Yes.

25 MR. MAGEE: (Inaudible.)

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1 MR. FISHER: Okay. So do you want to say

2 that before we vote?

3 MR. MAGEE: No, I thought that was part

4 of the vote.

5 MR. FISHER: If you support including it,

6 raise your hand, please.

7 Okay, we've got two hands up.

8 So, John, did you want to say --

9 MR. WILSON: Well, wait, before we say,

10 we need to have the other side of the vote, because

11 somebody may abstain. I don't know.

12 MR. CALLAGHAN: I guess it could carry if

13 we all decided?

14 MR. FISHER: Correct, if you all abstain.

15 MR. CALLAGHAN: It ain't happening,

16 Robert.

17 MR. FISHER: Yeah, I know. I got a

18 little ahead of everybody. Sorry.

19 All right. So let's just try it and

20 we'll do all three things. So we took the who supports

21 it. If you do not support including this, raise your

22 hand.

23 Okay. And if you abstain, raise your

24 hand.

25 Okay. So we had two supported including

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1 it, twelve did not support it, and one abstained.

2 Okay. So -- are you voting again, Dan?

3 MR. McGHEE: Because I mean, it's a -- if

4 I'm understanding, you want a consensus or whatever?

5 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yes.

6 MR. McGHEE: But I'm willing to say I

7 don't support it or not support so that it can move

8 forward and you could have a recommendation to move

9 forward. You know what I mean? Because I don't think

10 two people in a group of twelve should hold up a

11 recommendation.

12 MR. MAGEE: I would say I'm willing to go

13 along with the majority of you on this, but I would like

14 you to know my comments.

15 MR. McGHEE: I'm not going with the

16 majority, I'm just saying I don't have an opinion, a

17 strong opinion one way or the other to hold up the

18 recommendation.

19 MR. FISHER: So you would stand aside, in

20 essence?

21 MR. McGHEE: Yes, same on Jeff's page.

22 MR. FISHER: All right. Robin?

23 MS. LASH: I'm against it because we have

24 to keep in mind that the NIGC is limited in its

25 regulating authority. And that's -- the authority of

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1 the NIGC is specified in 25 USC 2706(b)(1) through (4).

2 And Promotions is not part of that. And I think that it

3 should be left up to the gaming regulatory authority to

4 follow their own gaming code. And the NIGC, in taking

5 us in this direction, is -- in essence, could be

6 causing, you know, TGRAs to violate their own gaming

7 codes.

8 So I just -- I think most of the group is

9 on the same page. I mean, that's specifically the

10 problems with having this promotion section.

11 MR. FISHER: So let's go to Matthew and

12 then Mia.

13 MR. MORGAN: My thought would be, you

14 know, where I get hung on this is the authority. I

15 would be willing to make a recommendation that says I

16 recommend NIGC issue a bulletin to put something out

17 there that says this is a good idea for your local TGRA

18 to have that you need controls around these areas,

19 because these areas are an area that can be abused, but

20 I can't support it being in a regulation form.

21 MR. McGHEE: So how did it end up in the

22 regulation to begin with if nobody supports it?

23 MR. FISHER: So Mia and then Kathi.

24 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: I just want to make

25 a note that the current definition in the working group

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1 of gaming promotion states that to be a gaming promotion

2 it has to be two but not all three of the elements,

3 prize, chance and consideration, and which that covers

4 non-gaming activity and may fall outside the

5 jurisdiction of the NIGC. So I just wanted you to

6 consider that.

7 MR. FISHER: Kathi?

8 MS. HAMEL: John, I wanted to answer your

9 question. The TGWG did not work as a consensus. There

10 were many people that had one opinion or another. But

11 we did put everybody's -- we made an attempt to put

12 everybody's opinion on paper. And there were folks in

13 our group that were regulators that were concerned that

14 if there weren't standards established by the Federal

15 Government or through bulletins, that they felt that

16 their gaming commissions didn't have the authority that

17 they needed.

18 So that's how that came, that's how that

19 came about, and that's why we see certain things that we

20 may talk about today that we didn't necessarily agree

21 with. But again, it was everybody's input to the

22 recommendation. I think many of us believed this should

23 have been a bulletin and not a regulation.

24 MR. MAGEE: I don't have that strong of

25 an opinion about this. I could stand aside. If you

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1 want to issue a bulletin on it, I'm fine with that, as

2 well.

3 MR. McGHEE: Revote.

4 MS. LASH: Test the bulletin theory.

5 MR. McGHEE: Well, just revote and I'll

6 stand aside and then you'll stand aside, and that will

7 be it.

8 MR. FISHER: Do you want to do it --

9 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I hear

10 the recommendation that either this be placed -- a

11 suggestion that we submit a bulletin.

12 MR. FISHER: Right. So we could test

13 that recommendation, which would be not include this

14 section and recommend to NIGC to issue a bulletin.

15 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: In lieu

16 of.

17 MR. FISHER: Right, instead of, whatever.

18 So it would be -- so everybody follow that? The

19 recommendation would be remove this section and --

20 MS. HAMEL: And the definition.

21 MR. FISHER: -- the definition and

22 recommend that NIGC issue a bulletin. So if you support

23 that, raise your hand.

24 MR. CULLOO: Well, can we just make sure

25 that the bulletin is clear and really tries to define

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1 the difference between what's a marketing promotion and

2 what's a gaming promotion and not just throw that same

3 definition in there?

4 MR. McGHEE: You can't control their

5 bulletin, how it comes out.

6 MR. WHEATLEY: It's just a bulletin.

7 MR. McGHEE: I stand aside.

8 MR. FISHER: I think we need to do it

9 again. Because you want to clarify what the -- say

10 anything about the bulletin, Leo?

11 MR. CULLOO: Well, they were just telling

12 me I don't have that --

13 MR. FISHER: We can make a

14 recommendation. It doesn't mean they're going to do it.

15 MR. CULLOO: I would just recommend that

16 they define the difference between a gaming promotion

17 and a marketing promotion in that bulletin.

18 MR. FISHER: Okay, hold on.

19 Okay, so let's try this again. So --

20 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: And I think we

21 should be cautious about bulletins, because the bulletin

22 could go the opposite way, too. We kind of know what

23 we'd like for it to say now, but if it went a different

24 direction --

25 MR. FISHER: So would you like to test

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1 them separate rather than have them be combined?

2 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Yes.

3 MR. WILSON: Didn't we already vote on

4 one?

5 MR. FISHER: No, because Leo raised the

6 question right before we voted.

7 MR. WILSON: But we did vote on it.

8 MR. McGHEE: But we didn't have a

9 consensus.

10 MR. WILSON: Does that matter?

11 MR. McGHEE: It does matter in setting

12 forth the recommendation.

13 MR. CULLOO: Do you need a consensus not

14 to adopt something, too?

15 (Simultaneous discussion.)

16 MR. FISHER: You're making a

17 recommendation that they not include it, right? So

18 let's test this one at a time.

19 So if you support the recommendation that

20 this section not be included in the recommendation and

21 in NIGC regulations, raise your hand.

22 Okay. If you abstain, raise your hand.

23 Okay. So we've got 13 yeses and two

24 abstain.

25 MR. McGHEE: Three.

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1 MR. FISHER: Three. So that means --

2 then that becomes a consensus recommendation of the TAC.

3 So then the second question is do you --

4 if you support recommending to the NIGC that they issue

5 a bulletin with or without Leo's inclusion of

6 distinguishing between gaming promotions and marketing

7 promotions, raise your hand.

8 MR. WHEATLEY: Do we include one?

9 MR. FISHER: Yeah, issue a bulletin that

10 includes these respective definitions. So can you do it

11 again so I can see?

12 So we've got two, three, four, five, six,

13 seven, eight. Okay.

14 If you do not support issuing a bulletin,

15 raise your hand. That's three.

16 And if you abstain, please raise your

17 hand.

18 That's three.

19 So for those of you who did not support

20 issuing a bulletin, did you want to say the reasons or

21 is there a way to fix it?

22 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: It's just hard for

23 me to -- we're here and we're working on, you know, the

24 regulations and the guidelines and then get to the point

25 where we can't decide on something so we want to

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1 recommend a bulletin. And you know, bulletins almost

2 become regulation, whether they are or they're not.

3 Many tribes take them to be -- well --

4 MR. McGHEE: They carry a lot of weight.

5 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Exactly. I don't

6 think it's the best solution.

7 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I'll

8 check with Mike Hoenig, but these guidance that we're

9 talking about, how would we issue those? We'd issue

10 those in bulletins, right?

11 MR. HOENIG: Yes. I mean, it could be

12 done through a bulletin or it could be done through

13 guidance that we just put out through a bulletin, which

14 bulletins are numbered, they go on the Web site.

15 They've kind of taken on their own format. But none of

16 those would have the force and effect of law or

17 regulation. They are not enforceable, they are

18 guidance, whether they're in bulletin form like all of

19 our bulletins or whether it's a separate guidance.

20 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: So in

21 essence, the guidance are basically a bulletin almost,

22 or they will be if that's the path you choose.

23 MR. MORGAN: It actually mentions the

24 word guidance, recognizes that word as your authority.

25 Bulletins have come up to practice.

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1 MR. FISHER: So let's go to either

2 Michele or Carleen, why you said no on the bulletin.

3 MS. CHINO: I don't think NIGC has any

4 authority on the gaming promotions. Right now, I think

5 we all kind of agree that they don't have any authority

6 whatsoever right now, and it's left to the tribal gaming

7 regulatory office.

8 Issuing a bulletin almost, just like Mia

9 said, almost always comes back as a regulation in some

10 form and fashion, at some point in time.

11 I think we've raised the issue already,

12 or that this working group has raised the issue already

13 that it's most likely in the back of Rest's head that

14 it's going to be -- in some form or fashion become a

15 regulation, at some point in time.

16 But I guess in preparation for it, just

17 asking for guidance, if that's how we're going to put

18 it, I'm pretty sure that the TGRA is responsible for

19 putting some kind of regulation in place at your local

20 level.

21 MR. FISHER: Michele?

22 MS. STACONA: Well, I just want to state

23 for the record that I don't think, for the tribe I

24 represent, not to give any type of or construe any -- I

25 would just say any authority to NIGC which it currently

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1 does not have.

2 So just to give even a slight foot in the

3 door, I just don't to do that. So that's why I voted no

4 to the bulletin.

5 MR. FISHER: Okay. So there is no

6 consensus on the bulletin. So shall I get rid of it?

7 Yeah? Is there any more to do with it?

8 MR. McGHEE: Some want it, some don't, so

9 what do you do about it?

10 MR. FISHER: We can note in here that

11 some want it and some don't and the reasons why people

12 want it and the reasons why people don't.

13 Okay. So do you want me to write that up

14 on here? I don't know if you need to watch me write it.

15 MR. MORGAN: My only comment was that

16 Dan, since he's taking this back and relaying it, if Dan

17 needs something as a reminder of where the group was on

18 this conversation.

19 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: It's in

20 the transcript, I've got it in my notes.

21 I'll be honest with you, I think this is

22 one of the best conversations we've had so far. Because

23 ultimately, if we decide to move forward with this

24 regulation, we have to make these decisions. That

25 authority is vested in myself and the other

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1 commissioners. And this discussion is really helpful,

2 very, very helpful.

3 So even though there wasn't a consensus

4 or recommendation or one way or the other on this, this

5 is very, very helpful, and I do appreciate that.

6 MR. McGHEE: It's at least one section

7 you can be very careful on when you decide.

8 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: When we

9 make a decision, I'll know which places to visit and

10 don't visit. Just kidding.

11 MR. FISHER: All right. So is there any

12 more we need to do on this one right now? Then I

13 suggest we take a break.

14 So let's take a 15-minute break, and

15 we'll start up again, by my clock, just a little after

16 quarter of.

17 (Recess taken.)

18 MR. FISHER: Okay, let me try this again.

19 Let's start. So we took care of the gaming promotions.

20 So now where we would be on our agenda is pull tabs,

21 543.8(i), pull tabs. So do you want to start with an

22 overview of what TGWG produced or do you want to jump

23 straight to your comment?

24 TGWG folks, what's your preference? Do

25 you want to start with an overview or just jump to the

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1 first NIGC comment?

2 MR. WILSON: Well, I've got a question,

3 and it's the same question I had yesterday, that your

4 comment on the TGWG proposal was that it appeared to be

5 overly broad. But again, I'm wondering, was that

6 comment based on before you saw the guidance document or

7 does that comment still apply?

8 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: So it's

9 the comment, the first sentence on page three?

10 MR. WILSON: The comment on page three,

11 the second comment.

12 MR. FISHER: Effect of TGWG proposal,

13 first sentence.

14 MR. WILSON: Because there is that

15 general theme throughout all your comments that it

16 appears to be overly broad.

17 MR. WEST: Yes, that's still in effect.

18 MR. McGHEE: Even with the guidance

19 documents it's broad is what you're staying?

20 MR. WEST: No, this relates to the

21 standards.

22 MR. WILSON: Well, that's my question, is

23 the -- the standard -- the comment is that the standard

24 there is overly broad. But if we're going with the

25 concept that the guidance document supplements the

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1 standard, is that statement still correct?

2 MR. McGHEE: Yeah, because I notice your

3 comment is that there is no guidance for X or there is

4 no guidance for so-and-so. So are you saying there is

5 no guidance in the guidance documents for those specific

6 points? That's basically what you're saying, because

7 they keep saying there isn't enough guidance. Because

8 there is guidance now for pull tab inventory, which says

9 that it is -- lack of detail with regard to inventory,

10 but (f) is a whole section of inventory.

11 MR. FISHER: So let's just take a minute

12 to look through the document here.

13 Okay. So back to the NIGC.

14 MR. WEST: It's just a general comment.

15 MR. FISHER: So they're trying to take

16 that comment seriously, right?

17 MR. WILSON: We were going to have a

18 subject matter expert here on pull tabs. Did that --

19 MR. WHEATLEY: She wasn't able to make

20 it, no.

21 MR. FISHER: Which Jeff did say

22 yesterday, yes.

23 MR. WILSON: I mean, I'm good to move on

24 with other comments you have in here. I just wanted to

25 know that we don't need to address those, when you say

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1 it's overly broad, if, in fact, the guidance documents

2 sort of took care of that issue.

3 MR. WEST: I think they probably did, for

4 the most part, but it's just kind of a general comment

5 that's actually relative to a lot of the sections in

6 these TGWG documents.

7 MR. McGHEE: It seems like later, though,

8 you did go back and look at the guidance, because some

9 of the comments say now appears to be consistent with

10 industry practice, which means you're okay.

11 So maybe initially that was your comment,

12 and then when you got the guidance documents, you went

13 through and looked at those, as well. And wherever it

14 says appears to be consistent you're okay with.

15 So really we should look at the points

16 where it says, you know, specifically something about

17 it, which is only in risk assessment, like (e), risk

18 assessment, you do have a comment there that it's

19 unnecessarily vague even in the guidance documents.

20 That's your first real comment, is on (e), risk

21 assessments.

22 MR. WILSON: Actually, the first comment

23 is statistical reports on page four.

24 MR. McGHEE: Where it says supervision,

25 like starting with guidance, supervision?

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1 MR. WILSON: No, it says the proposed

2 modifications do not have any standards related to

3 statistical analysis standards, and therefore it exposes

4 the operation.

5 So I guess the question there is --

6 MR. McGHEE: I want to say that was made

7 before they actually got the documents, because there is

8 a section on statistical report.

9 MR. WILSON: There is? Okay.

10 MR. McGHEE: But later they go into more

11 detail of the actual. And the first one they say is

12 supervision, but then they say that appears to be

13 consistent, so they're okay. And they actually have a

14 comment about that.

15 MR. WEST: The top of page four where it

16 says there also does not appear to be guidance regarding

17 the approval necessary to close or remove the deal from

18 play where the entire deal isn't sold, can we start with

19 that? I think that's probably the first --

20 MR. FISHER: Top of page four.

21 MR. McGHEE: So you're talking about

22 cancellation or removal?

23 MR. WEST: Yes.

24 MR. McGHEE: Because there is a whole

25 section of that in the guidance documents on page five.

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1 MR. WEST: My question relates to removal

2 of the deal before the entire deal is played out. Does

3 the committee think there needs to be any guidance on

4 that as far as approval or controls? And this can be

5 paper or electronic.

6 MR. FISHER: Does everybody see what Rest

7 is asking about?

8 MS. HAMEL: So in the guidance document,

9 there is reference to cancellation and removal, and then

10 controls should require that each deal (inaudible)

11 removed and discontinued from play (inaudible), but it's

12 not clear that it has to be analyzed and approved prior

13 to removal? Is that the question, Rest?

14 MR. WEST: Well, generally you have to

15 play the deal out. I mean, does it have to be some

16 formal approval from the TGRA or --

17 MR. RAMOS: I think the point you're

18 getting at is you put a deal out there and they play it

19 halfway through and nobody has won the big jackpot and

20 then you go and remove it.

21 MR. WHEATLEY: So does there need to be a

22 minimum payout percentage or something?

23 MR. RAMOS: So you don't play through the

24 entire set and you'll be removing it before the major

25 winner actually is awarded, and should there be some

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1 regulation that says you need approval, an authorized

2 person.

3 MR. WEST: And it could happen

4 electronically or with paper.

5 MR. RAMOS: Yeah, the paper one is

6 easier, because that's what we use.

7 MR. WEST: It's easier to visualize.

8 MR. CULLOO: Well, one of the problems

9 with pulling the deal is that if people come in and they

10 see the flares and they hit the top awards right off at

11 the beginning of the deal, they quit playing, it just

12 sits there. So you have to be careful in using

13 percentages or anything like that to determine that.

14 MS. HAMEL: Rest is questioning the

15 authority to make that decision.

16 (Simultaneous discussion.)

17 MR. FISHER: So we've got a couple

18 conversations going on. So where are we on this? I'm

19 confused.

20 MR. McGHEE: Well, I think the only thing

21 is that he's saying should there be a control that would

22 keep the operation from arbitrarily pulling a deal prior

23 to the big hit because they just don't want to pay it

24 out. It hasn't hit, it's been playing, so then let's

25 just cancel out the deal. And it says I have to fill

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1 out this, this and this, but nowhere does it say I have

2 to explain myself and why I did it. I just decided to

3 arbitrarily pull it without any kind of -- you know, who

4 said that was okay? You know, no approval process to

5 that, doing something like that and making sure it's not

6 being done, like you said, arbitrarily or maliciously.

7 So that's what's lacking.

8 MR. CALLAGHAN: I think it's a day issue,

9 then, rather than a cancellation issue. It's a matter

10 of how long you expose the deal to play. It's somewhat

11 similar to short time to cancel TITO, it would be

12 similar to what time frame that you cancel a deal. Does

13 that make sense? Because for the very reasons that was

14 articulated here, is that you may want to cancel it

15 because it's no longer rich, everything has been hit,

16 nobody is playing it, then why take up that space for

17 that. But I think it would work on both ends, do we

18 still have to keep it exposed for a period of time even

19 though it's no longer rich.

20 MR. McGHEE: So what we have to determine

21 is should there be a guidance written saying -- you

22 know, it says that you have to do something when you're

23 going to cancel it. I mean, it says that you have to

24 prevent fraud, but there isn't a best practice as to how

25 you go about doing that when it's a deal that hasn't

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1 been played out.

2 So could the recommendation actually

3 be -- because the problem is with the guidance document,

4 not the regulation, so to speak, because it does talk

5 about canceling deals, what to do. But the

6 regulation -- I mean, the guidance document, do you

7 think it should be in the reg somewhere or should it be

8 in the guidance documents for that?

9 MR. WEST: Well, I guess the first

10 question is do the TGRA people in here think it's

11 something that they need to have approval, a policy that

12 the gaming operation has where we get to this certain

13 point and we're going to pull the deal, whether it's

14 paper or electronically? I mean, I don't know if that's

15 an issue or it's just an operating policy. To me, I'm

16 just -- I have seen this before, and it just came to my

17 mind.

18 MR. McGHEE: I think that it would

19 warrant mention, that being mentioned to mitigate

20 that -- you're talking about a risk, and there is a risk

21 that someone could pull the deal before it's even paid

22 out.

23 MR. WHEATLEY: Right.

24 MR. McGHEE: That's a risk. So if we

25 want to mitigate that risk, it should be in here. Now,

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1 it could vaguely say you have controls that may mitigate

2 that risk.

3 MS. HAMEL: Daniel, what's the risk, if

4 it's pulled earlier or pulled late?

5 MR. McGHEE: The risk is that you're

6 never allowing the actual big payout to happen because

7 you keep pulling it before it happens.

8 MR. CALLAGHAN: Why don't we borrow a

9 comment from the gaming soft world and say you have to

10 have a minimum to hold the bet?

11 MR. WHEATLEY: Exactly.

12 MR. CULLOO: What does Washington say?

13 MR. WHEATLEY: Well, for what? For pull

14 tabs?

15 MR. CULLOO: Yeah.

16 MR. WHEATLEY: I don't know. That's a

17 WAC thing.

18 MR. CULLOO: I think most pull tabs, if

19 I'm not mistaken, are set up with a house advantage,

20 that 30 percent, and they can only pay out 70 to

21 75 percent if you sold the whole bowl out.

22 MR. MORGAN: You know your payback when

23 you buy it.

24 MR. WHEATLEY: That's granted that you

25 sell the entire bowl.

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1 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: We pull gaming

2 machines before they hit their top prizes.

3 MR. WHEATLEY: Yeah, but you have to make

4 sure that you have paid back a certain percentage.

5 MR. McGHEE: But when you're playing pull

6 tabs, you're playing it under the assumption that if I

7 play it enough, eventually we're going to whittle it

8 down to the big one. And if I go in there, if I'm

9 manually selling it, I see this lady has a stack, right?

10 Of pull tabs, and I know that the big one hasn't hit

11 yet, I might want to decide I'm going to buy her whole

12 stack, it's got to be in there somewhere. For the

13 manual ones. And that's what you would do. So I bought

14 that stack and I'm trying to whittle it down, and than

15 all of a sudden I decide to quit playing it? I've just

16 put a whole lot of money into a deal and it's never

17 going to hit, you know. And that's not right, because

18 I'm playing it on the premise that it's a pull tab and

19 here is how pull tab games work.

20 MR. MORGAN: But, Daniel, on this

21 designed to prevent unauthorized access, on the fraud,

22 if the part of the rules or procedures you have says you

23 can't and you do it, it would be fraud.

24 MR. McGHEE: That's with the inventory.

25 That's to protect your inventory of pull tabs, not

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1 necessarily the pull tabs that are out on the -- I mean,

2 I agree it could be somewhere like that.

3 MR. MORGAN: I'm going to check my

4 knowledge man.

5 MR. CULLOO: You absolutely need controls

6 to prevent staff from pulling a bowl off and buying it

7 up themselves, because that has happened, where you get

8 a pull tab manager that will pull the bowl in

9 confederation with somewhere else, because you can

10 reserve bowls in a lot of places.

11 MR. McGHEE: The question is is

12 inventory -- does the inventory include what's out on

13 the floor in the machine versus what's in your closet

14 back here still? If that's all your inventory, then,

15 yeah, controls are in place to keep fraud from

16 happening. It says controls should be in place. But

17 then in the guidance document, it doesn't talk about if

18 you decide to cancel that, you know, the rules. So it

19 could be covered in there. But if it is, then the

20 guidance document, to me, would need to be explained a

21 little further in that instance.

22 MR. FISHER: A little more guidance in

23 the guidance document.

24 MR. McGHEE: If we can agree that the

25 general risk of doing that is covered in pull tab

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1 inventory, if you consider that to be inventory. And I

2 don't know if you all consider it inventory. Once it's

3 put on the floor, is it called inventory?

4 MR. WEST: Even in the machine, when they

5 recopy the deal over electronically, if that's inventory

6 when it's in that waiting to go out to the player

7 terminals, is that inventory? That's a good point.

8 MR. McGHEE: Because when we had pull

9 tabs, I always looked at inventory as what was left in

10 the closet and what came back into the closet, so to

11 speak, at the end of the night. So what was out there

12 floating was kind of active until it came back.

13 MR. WEST: Like bingo paper, same thing.

14 MR. FISHER: So the question is whether

15 people recognize that that's something that should be

16 included in the guidance and, if so, what to say, or

17 something else?

18 MR. McGHEE: I think -- I mean, what I'm

19 reading as Rest's concern is that kind of activity, if

20 doing that could happen. And I don't know that we've

21 actually addressed it.

22 MR. FISHER: In the guidance?

23 MR. McGHEE: In the guidance or the reg

24 for sure.

25 MR. FISHER: Okay. So --

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1 MR. McGHEE: So the question is, you

2 know, what do you think should happen? Should it be as

3 simple as okay, if they do decide to do that, then you

4 have to write a report and that report is submitted to

5 accounting as to why they cut the deal, why they did it.

6 And then, you know, what happens after that, you know,

7 should it be sent to TGRA, should it be sent to whoever.

8 But at the very least, it should include that if you do

9 that you have to generate this report or summary

10 explaining why.

11 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: I think it does

12 state that, actually.

13 MR. FISHER: So is there more for us to

14 discuss here, or do you want to see if somebody wants to

15 make a proposal to the group or we need a small group?

16 MR. McGHEE: I have a proposal.

17 MR. FISHER: Wait one second while we get

18 everybody -- some people are still back checking the

19 documents. So let's just hold it one second, if we

20 could.

21 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: It says that on page

22 five at the bottom, (iii), that a summary report be

23 completed explaining eliminating the deal from

24 inventory.

25 MR. WHEATLEY: But it doesn't ever talk

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1 about whether a minimum payback percentage has been met.

2 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: I don't think that

3 that should be --

4 MR. WHEATLEY: What if the major top

5 prize is still in the bowl, so you've only paid back,

6 say, 20 percent, your whole percentage is 80 percent and

7 you remove that from the floor, somebody has invested --

8 a customer has invested thousands of dollars trying to

9 hit that, whether it's a $599 prize, typically, that's

10 displayed on the board, you just pull it so that the

11 operation has a 80 percent profit on a particular deal,

12 I don't know that that's fair to the guest.

13 MR. McGHEE: You know, your guests have

14 put in this money to build up progressive, and if you

15 decide to pull progressive off the floor, you've got to

16 do something with it. It's the same concept with pull

17 tabs, because people invested and did this --

18 MR. CULLOO: It's kind of hard to

19 distribute a pull tab prize in some other format other

20 than someone to pick the winner.

21 MR. McGHEE: Not to redistribute it, but

22 it's the same concept of -- to remove and not to have

23 some real explanation would be the same concept to

24 remove a progressive pool without doing something with

25 it.

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1 MR. CULLOO: And it's not always cash,

2 it's a prize in a lot of cases, too.

3 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: On page eleven, it

4 talks about procedures for pulling (inaudible) that's

5 not claimed or won.

6 MR. McGHEE: Tell me where you're looking

7 at.

8 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Page eleven.

9 MR. McGHEE: What number?

10 MR. FISHER: Five and six, I guess,

11 right, four, five and six?

12 MR. McGHEE: A progressive would be

13 probably in a pull tab machine, you know, where

14 everybody who buys the pull tab goes to

15 some (inaudible).

16 MR. FISHER: You know, Daniel, you said

17 you had a suggestion to make.

18 MR. McGHEE: The suggestion before was to

19 determine if the group was in agreement at least that

20 this is a risk that needs to be addressed so we don't

21 have to spend any more time on it.

22 MR. FISHER: All right. So do you want

23 to test that?

24 MR. McGHEE: Yes.

25 MR. FISHER: Okay, everybody. So Daniel

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1 would like to test whether this is a risk that we need

2 to be addressing, either in the regulation or the

3 guidance, whichever.

4 MR. WILSON: Restate what the risk is.

5 MR. McGHEE: The risk is removing a deal

6 prematurely, you know, when you remove it prematurely

7 before it's sold out from the floor, and what those --

8 if there is a rule or if there is some kind of --

9 something that states you can or you can't or whatever.

10 There is nothing in there that addresses either a

11 procedure, a guidance or what when that happens.

12 So that the risk is could someone remove

13 a deal from the floor prior to the big payout being paid

14 or anything else if the customers have invested trying

15 to buy it down and all the sudden it's gone. So that's

16 the risk to prevent.

17 MR. WILSON: That's a risk, but that's a

18 part of the game. And another part of the game --

19 MR. McGHEE: It's not a part of the game,

20 because ideally it's supposed to be sold out.

21 MR. WILSON: Let me finish. What I'm

22 saying about that is that there is all kinds of -- there

23 is a number of different reasons why you may make a

24 decision to do something like that. So is the risk --

25 in my mind, is the risk the decision or is the risk that

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1 proceeds, if that happens, are not benefiting to the

2 playing public.

3 So in other words, you know, you use the

4 example of a progressive. So in our state, we can pull

5 down a progressive and we can either move that to

6 another progressive or we can dispose of that by virtue

7 of some other method that accrues to the benefit of the

8 gaming public, not necessarily directly to the thing.

9 And you've got people that have been obviously playing

10 those machines. But what happens oftentimes is people

11 stop playing a machine because they just feel like it's

12 never going to hit.

13 Well, we don't want that sitting on the

14 floor just doing nothing, but we recognize that there is

15 a pool of money there that is player --

16 MR. McGHEE: If there is a control to

17 where you're not benefiting, so to speak, from just free

18 money.

19 MR. WILSON: Yes. And so I guess the

20 point I'm trying to make is that if the issue is the

21 integrity of the game could be because a -- if a casino

22 operation were to constantly take that game down so that

23 there really never was a possibility for somebody to win

24 the big prize, if you will, then that's what the focus

25 should be on as to the -- you know, that's what you're

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1 trying to address, is that there is some mechanism that

2 benefits the playing public as opposed to a mechanism

3 saying you can't -- you can't bring down -- because I

4 don't know how --

5 MR. McGHEE: I'm not saying you can't.

6 I'm saying if you do, what is to happen? It's not a

7 matter of can or can't, it's just a matter if you do

8 decide to do it, you know, is there a mechanism in here

9 for explaining the reason why and what happens. It's

10 not a can't. Because I agree there is reasons you

11 should and can, but I don't think it addresses --

12 nowhere does it keep me from doing it for the wrong

13 reasons versus the right reasons. I can do it for any

14 reason.

15 MR. WILSON: So how would you define,

16 then, what --

17 MR. McGHEE: Well, the question is what I

18 just said, before we figure out how, does everybody

19 agree that it's a risk. If you don't agree that it's a

20 risk, then we won't talk about it any more.

21 MR. FISHER: Is it something that needs

22 to be addressed. That's what I hear Daniel addressing.

23 So Jeff and then Matthew.

24 MR. WHEATLEY: I can kind of explain in

25 our compact lottery machines, which are pull-tab based,

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1 how it's handled in Washington state.

2 The state requires that there is a

3 minimum payback percentage that occurs with those games

4 and that you have to meet that before you pull that game

5 off the floor. If an operator decides to go pull that

6 game off the floor, they have to provide a report and

7 give it to the Tribal Gaming Regulatory Authority to

8 confirm that they met that minimum payback percentage

9 here.

10 And that's what we're talking about here,

11 is do we need to establish a minimum payback percentage

12 on a physical pull tab game, where, prior to pulling

13 that off, the Tribal Gaming Regulatory Authority has

14 to -- has to verify that the minimum payback has been

15 met so that the general public isn't necessarily cheated

16 out of winning those prizes.

17 MR. FISHER: Matthew?

18 MR. MORGAN: I think I agree in concept

19 but maybe not in specifics.

20 From my understanding, you know, you

21 would like it if the public doesn't feel cheated. You

22 used that term.

23 As long as I have rules of how this game

24 works, I have published those rules to the public, they

25 have the ability to understand prior to entering that

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1 game what the rules are controlling that game, that's

2 really all you're required to do with any game. If you

3 decide to enter into the risk on those rules, you as an

4 individual decide to participate in the game.

5 It's not really a minimum of a threshold

6 level, it's do you have rules, have those rules been

7 communicated to the public. And they have the choice to

8 either participate or not participate. In my mind,

9 that's more of the question than actually setting a

10 percentage, because just like on any payback on any

11 game, you know, a lot of this your market will decide.

12 You know, that's what I keep coming back to. If you're

13 continually pulling decks before they're winning, the

14 public is going to stop playing that game because

15 they're going to have a perception that you're not going

16 to win. Then it's a public relations issue.

17 But if your rules say yes, you can pull

18 and you can pull it under these circumstances as long as

19 the operation followed those rules, the public was aware

20 of those rules, it should be allowable, in my mind. And

21 I'm speaking generally.

22 MR. WHEATLEY: But I think with a

23 physical pull tab game, it's very easy to manipulate

24 that and not necessarily have the guests know that the

25 prizes weren't won.

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1 MR. FISHER: Leo?

2 MR. CULLOO: The other thing, too, is you

3 can't set a minimum here, because you put your bowl out

4 and they hit the top three awards right off the bat,

5 that game is going to sit there for -- no one is going

6 to buy it so you would be able to pull it.

7 Where I've seen fraud, where I've seen it

8 occur is where a pull tab employee pulls a bowl or

9 reserves a bowl and they work in confederation with

10 someone else that buys the bowl down when it gets toward

11 the end for that top award. So that's where your risk

12 is.

13 MR. McGHEE: That's in your inventory,

14 because it would take it out of inventory, right?

15 MR. CULLOO: No, because I think every

16 place I've been, they have rules posted how to reserve a

17 bowl. If you've got X amount of dollars in it, you'll

18 see a sign on it, bowl is reserved, and they're waiting

19 for that customer to come back in and play down the

20 bowl. And they'll reserve them for 24 hours or 48

21 hours, in some places. Every place is different on

22 that.

23 MR. FISHER: Okay. So we're back to the

24 question of whether this is something that should be

25 addressed in some way, either in the regulation or in

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1 the guidance.

2 MR. McGHEE: Yeah, I think even if you

3 put it there and said controls should be in place to

4 prevent blah-blah-blah, canceling a deal or doing

5 whatever, removing a deal. It's not in the reg. And

6 then your best practices could be percentages met,

7 blah-blah-blah, here is one way to determine that, you

8 know. You could explain that's one way to do it.

9 I just want to say you have to have

10 protocols in place.

11 MR. WHEATLEY: I can try to get our

12 subject matter expert on the phone. She said she might

13 be available by phone, if that would be helpful to

14 anybody.

15 MR. WILSON: I would say that I don't

16 know enough about the game to -- for me to offer much in

17 terms of the environment and the risks.

18 MR. McGHEE: Well, the concept is very

19 general, meaning I don't know what the expert may or may

20 not do, other than be able to say, yeah, that could

21 happen, I mean, as far as being an expert in that field.

22 I think you have to understand the

23 concept of what a pull tab is, meaning here is a deck of

24 cards and I'm going to say there is a $5 winner and a

25 $100 winner and a $10 winner in there, but we don't know

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1 where it's at. So you start buying the cards off and

2 maybe you're down to the last one. I'm buying the cards

3 and I got down to half the deck and I still haven't hit

4 it, and then you decide to take the deck away. Whoa, I

5 just spent $50 trying to get to that and now you took it

6 away. What's your reasoning for that? You didn't want

7 me to win?

8 You know what I mean? That's the risk

9 that we're dealing with.

10 MR. WILSON: So if a -- I mean, I'm

11 looking at it if a customer brought up that complaint

12 from a takeaway perspective, what I would be looking for

13 then in the guidance or in the standards or something, I

14 need something to hang my hat on to say casino, follow

15 the procedure for whatever. And therefore, while I

16 understand it appears that this is the case, in reality

17 it's not and here is why.

18 The control, methodology, whatever happens,

19 there needs to be some way to explain an action to be

20 able to satisfy a customer's inquiry as to, hey, I feel

21 like I've been cheated, or we bought this game down and

22 I've been sitting here, you know, for hours and it just

23 isn't right or something.

24 MR. McGHEE: If it's a deal, a physical

25 deal, I can come in the next night and look at the thing

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1 and say, hey, it's gone or whatever, but a physical deal

2 I may not. I'm going to assume someone may have won it.

3 I have no way of knowing.

4 MR. WILSON: It may not have been the

5 case.

6 MR. WHEATLEY: Exactly.

7 MR. MORGAN: I have a question that may

8 be broader.

9 Going back, you know, electronic pull

10 tabs are one of the first test cases that you come into

11 for Class II that kind of made that legal. That's where

12 my concern really is, is making sure that we don't

13 somehow violate the statute or any of that case law that

14 is out there, which I don't think this does. So I'm

15 looking at Jeff to explain it. Because it's not lining

16 up in my head yet doesn't mean that it needs to, to be

17 quite honest with you.

18 But I read through what was marked out on

19 the July 10th draft, and I don't really see how that's

20 addressed before. So my question kind of goes to the

21 NIGC, is that a concern right now? And if it's a

22 concern, how is it addressed? Because it's not

23 something that the Tribal Gaming Work Group deleted. It

24 seems like this is a concern that wasn't addressed. So

25 how do you deal with that now, I guess is my question,

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1 for those type of issues on removing deals. Because I

2 don't see it addressed in the proposed. So I'm guessing

3 it probably wasn't in the 2008 version. But it's a

4 concern, so how do you deal with it?

5 MR. WEST: I don't know. That's why I

6 was hoping someone -- because I know in Washington

7 state, or I felt like in Washington state there was some

8 compact. I don't know if maybe somebody worked in

9 another operation where there was a procedure or

10 something for getting approval or the standard procedure

11 that the operation had for removing deals from the

12 floor. I don't know how it's -- I've never seen any

13 kind of rules and regs on it. I just --

14 MR. CALLAGHAN: Rest, I'm looking at my

15 MICS checklist. 542.8(g)(1)(i) -- actually (g),

16 standards for statistical reports. And what we follow

17 is the last two state is the pull tabs' statistical

18 information provided to the TGRA upon request, and then

19 the final one, are significant variations, plus or minus

20 three percent, investigated. So we've got our own

21 standard that we look at from that perspective.

22 One of the challenges we're having right

23 now is we're using machines, we're using like a

24 cigarette-type machine. And it almost sets us up for

25 professional inventory. We're not going to do it, but

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1 you're feeding tubes. You're always going to want to

2 keep the tubes fed. How does that affect your

3 statistical sampling (inaudible).

4 But our standard is, we're plus or minus

5 three percent. And we've got the authority -- again,

6 it's one of these things where we have the authority

7 rather than the NIGC dictating a theoretical hold

8 percent.

9 MR. WEST: I don't think we're even

10 contemplating that. I just wanted to bring it up for

11 discussion and see if there was some practical guidance

12 that could be developed.

13 MR. FISHER: Okay. So Christina has her

14 card up. And then after we hear from Christina, then

15 I'm going to check on public comment, because we're at

16 that time to check on public comment.

17 MS. THOMAS: Just kind of in line with

18 what Brian had said, for our properties, we actually

19 added language underneath our pull tabs regulation that

20 actually kind of details out the disposal or destruction

21 of pull tabs, with the requirement that our TGRA has to

22 approve it. When it's submitted to us to review to

23 dispose of pull tabs, whether it's pulling a deal, they

24 actually have to give us a brief written explanation of

25 the method of destruction, why they're doing it,

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1 timelines for it, and then who is actually going to be

2 involved when that takes place. So we've actually

3 expounded on what the MICS had in place further for the

4 controls that we actually have in place for our

5 property.

6 MR. CALLAGHAN: And it's funny that you

7 mention that, is we're actually looking at the timing.

8 What you just mentioned that you're adding on that, we

9 just had a meeting on that very issue, how long do you

10 expose it, what that time is. So we're kind of

11 self-regulating it.

12 MR. McGHEE: So do you think it would be

13 okay to not have something in your regulations about

14 that?

15 MS. THOMAS: I think we addressed that we

16 felt there was a risk there, so we established controls

17 that we felt had to be in place for the property.

18 MR. McGHEE: That's my point, because

19 what you want, if you think a property or a tribe or

20 whatever should have something in place for this,

21 however you want to do it, then it would need to be in

22 here, because then the property could choose just to not

23 have something in place because it's not mandated that I

24 do.

25 So is it important enough that it should

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1 be in place at a tribe and it should be in here versus

2 it being an option. And that's the question. And if

3 most people have something put down in there because

4 they realized it was important, you know, on how to

5 handle it, it should be in here.

6 MR. FISHER: So let's pause for a moment

7 because as a time check we're at the point on our

8 written agenda where we were scheduled for public

9 comment.

10 So is there anybody in the audience that

11 wishes to provide public comment directly to the TAC, at

12 this point?

13 Okay, so nobody stepped forward. So

14 let's go back to our discussions about pull tabs. So

15 people have identified some of the risks. Christina

16 talked about how you've handled it in your own way. And

17 so the question is whether there needs to be -- whether

18 you want to recommend something either in regulation or

19 in guidance that addresses the risks that have been

20 mentioned.

21 I'm just trying to get some feedback,

22 because we've kind of gone back and forth about whether

23 there is a risk or there isn't a risk and how you would

24 do it.

25 Kathi?

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1 MS. HAMEL: I don't think it's any

2 different than if you offer a themed bingo electronic

3 device and if it doesn't perform to what your customers

4 want, you don't write a regulation that says you can't

5 take it off the floor.

6 MR. McGHEE: It's not a regulation about

7 that you can't, it's just if you're going to, you need

8 to --

9 MS. THOMAS: I think the question is the

10 approval process.

11 MS. HAMEL: It doesn't require a

12 regulation. There is a process for removing it, but it

13 doesn't require a regulation.

14 MR. McGHEE: I think it's the concept of

15 the game is different, though.

16 MR. WHEATLEY: Wouldn't it be almost like

17 pulling a bingo game before all the balls have been

18 called? You wouldn't allow that.

19 MR. McGHEE: Or if you did, you would

20 have someone explaining. So it's a concept of pull tabs

21 that we have to worry about.

22 MR. RAMOS: I think, too, we're in a

23 situation where, look, for all the reasons that you

24 described for protection of the public, right? That you

25 don't want operators pulling the deal before the max

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1 awards have been hit. But conversely, you want

2 operators to have the flexibility to pull deals after

3 those things have been hit so they're not sitting around

4 stagnant.

5 MR. McGHEE: I don't disagree with being

6 able to do it, just a control in place that you can't do

7 it for the wrong reason.

8 MR. WHEATLEY: To protect the integrity

9 of the game, there has to be something there.

10 MR. CULLOO: Then you have to set a

11 percent, you have to.

12 MR. WHEATLEY: I don't think that's

13 uncommon.

14 MR. WILSON: I mean, I think that's the

15 only way you can apply it across the board, is you would

16 have to have a minimum. If the issue is the integrity

17 of the game, then you've got to have a minimum to be

18 able to prove that the integrity of the game was not

19 violated by removing it, right?

20 MS. HAMEL: Let's say it's not meant to

21 cheat the guest and it's not meant to be fraudulent,

22 nobody wants to play it, why do you have to have a

23 minimum to keep it on display if nobody cares about

24 playing it? Maybe nobody likes the color purple.

25 MR. WHEATLEY: On a pull tab game,

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1 because you have flare that lists what the top prizes

2 are and they haven't been crossed off, people are going

3 to play it. As long as those top prizes are still

4 there, they're going to play it. What we're trying to

5 protect against is an operator pulling it before those

6 prizes are taken, is the risk.

7 MR. McGHEE: And it could be manual

8 stacks, not necessarily a machine.

9 MR. CALLAGHAN: We actually pulled a game

10 because we found out it was politically incorrect. I

11 can't remember what it was styled on the thing, but it

12 came back -- you know, it was one of those things, you

13 load it in a tube, and you finally came back and read

14 what it said. Then it was shortly after it was exposed,

15 I can't recall the statistics, but it was pulled. As

16 you said, the color purple.

17 MR. McGHEE: We're not making a rule that

18 says you can't, you would just have to say here is why

19 we did it and here is what we propose to do with the

20 deal and blah-blah-blah.

21 MR. CALLAGHAN: Going back to my MICS

22 checklist, we're looking at a significant variance, what

23 we're calling plus or minus three percent.

24 MR. McGHEE: I'm just saying a control

25 should be in place to keep a deal from being taken

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1 without good reason, something like that. And I'm not

2 saying that is it. Don't shake your head.

3 MR. MORGAN: Smokin' Dan.

4 MR. McGHEE: And then your guidance

5 documents should say whether it should be three percent

6 plus or minus, or a minimum payback. I want the

7 regulation very vague, you need a control there, and the

8 guidance should say it. I don't know how to word the

9 control, but that's my recommendation. I think the

10 control should be there to state that you have a control

11 in place, and then let the TGRA decide what that control

12 is.

13 MR. MORGAN: I can get on board with what

14 Brian -- you're saying, because you identified what your

15 theoretical is and you know your variance from there,

16 because that's the rules of the game.

17 Just to pick an arbitrary percentage and

18 place it somewhere worries me a little bit, because that

19 takes away the option of the operator. Maybe you want a

20 70 percent or maybe your payback is 80 percent. As long

21 as you told the TGRA the game operates as I told you it

22 operates, that's your --

23 MR. CULLOO: Remember, too, in

24 electronic, it's a little different. You have a

25 computer system that gives you those percentages. In

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1 paper, you're weighing the bowls. And that's not as --

2 I don't care how accurate your scale is, it may not be,

3 as you say, three percent. Using a scale I wouldn't

4 trust that, that I'm within that using a scale.

5 MR. CALLAGHAN: That's an interesting

6 point, very, very interesting point. Yeah, you're

7 right.

8 MR. FISHER: Tom?

9 MR. WILSON: So going back to the

10 standard, I mean, what we're really kind of talking

11 about, then, is not the fraud aspect, misappropriation,

12 whatever, we're talking about an abuse of the game that

13 the operator would be doing that's really not accruing

14 to the benefit of the playing public.

15 So if you put in the standard -- you

16 know, right now it says designed to prevent unauthorized

17 access, misappropriation, forgery, theft or fraud. If

18 we put in there also abuse, then one of the things that

19 could be abused is that issue, if you didn't want to get

20 down to having a statistical number that you're trying

21 to apply to.

22 MR. McGHEE: How about if you -- I mean,

23 I agree with what you're saying, it's just where it

24 fits. Because the discussion we had earlier was if

25 inventory is considered deals out on the floor, also,

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1 then it's covered. You know what I mean? If it's not

2 considered to be what's out on the floor as inventory,

3 then it's not covered.

4 And that may be -- if that's a question

5 here, it's going to be a question at the site. So maybe

6 if we just said -- your other little underlined part,

7 just say pull tab play and then you have the same

8 wording there, meaning pull tab play must be controlled

9 in a manner designed to prevent blah-blah-blah, and it

10 separates the fact that one is in inventory and one is

11 what's being played.

12 So you're just adding another section

13 that duplicates that one, but you're calling it pull tab

14 play or game play versus pull tab inventory, because

15 there are some sections that just talk about the game.

16 It talks about all the stuff surrounding the game but

17 not the game.

18 So that could more or less do it, because

19 the wording is good, it's just under inventory, which

20 makes it a little bit ambiguous as to whether or not

21 you're talking about what's out there on the floor.

22 MR. WILSON: Is what's on the floor

23 considered part of inventory?

24 MR. WHEATLEY: I don't know.

25 MS. THOMAS: I would define that it is.

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1 MR. WILSON: It is, right?

2 MR. McGHEE: She would, he don't know,

3 Rest says good question. So you're not going to know.

4 MR. CULLOO: Some will do not necessarily

5 a daily inventory of what they have, they will go

6 through once a month and weigh the bowls that they have

7 on the floor, and that's how they come up with inventory

8 in addition to what's in their store. Everyone does it

9 differently. Some will do it weekly, some do it

10 monthly. But at some point, they have to weigh those

11 bowls on the floor to get an accurate inventory.

12 MR. WILSON: So what is on the floor is

13 part of inventory?

14 MR. CULLOO: Absolutely.

15 MR. WILSON: So therefore, inventory

16 controls also apply to what's on the floor?

17 MR. CULLOO: Should.

18 MR. WILSON: So I guess I'm answering

19 Daniel's question.

20 MR. McGHEE: You are.

21 So if it's confusing here, it's going to

22 be confusing when you put it out there in a reg, and

23 people are going to say what does that mean? The

24 inventory, I don't think it's clear. So you need to be

25 more clear.

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1 MR. WILSON: Well, and I suppose at the

2 end of the day, not everything can be specific. I mean,

3 this might be one of those things that you can't

4 necessarily say -- as you've identified, the problem

5 with the words are that -- I forget the word that you

6 used, but was -- what it was you used a while ago when

7 you said it needs to say that you have to do something.

8 And it's like, well, if we're having a hard time

9 defining that, then I would argue that it may be

10 difficult to put that in the standard anyhow, from that

11 standpoint, but that it's this concept that really we're

12 discussing, is that there is a concept that there needs

13 to be an awareness that this game should not be taken

14 down until all of the prizes or the major prizes or

15 something have hit, because we're saying that that's, in

16 our mind, what makes the game fair.

17 MR. McGHEE: I want to be clear. I'm not

18 saying you can't take the game down before the main

19 prizes hit. I'm not saying you can't. It's just if you

20 do, do it within a procedure. Something has got to

21 happen if you're going to do it.

22 MR. WILSON: A procedure, but does the

23 procedure imply that you have to have a -- that there is

24 a set of reasons that allow you to take that down, but

25 there is yet another set of reasons that would be

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1 considered inappropriate?

2 MR. McGHEE: Yes.

3 MR. WILSON: And that's where we get into

4 is that something, then, that is decided from tribe to

5 tribe or is it an integrity of gaming issue that,

6 universally, there are certain reasons why you don't

7 take down this game because of X, Y or Z?

8 MR. FISHER: So in other words --

9 MR. McGHEE: The pull tab concept is the

10 same everywhere.

11 MR. FISHER: So you're asking the

12 question, Tom, is it a standard or is it a practice that

13 you're getting at?

14 MR. WILSON: Well, yes, because if there

15 is an inherent risk, then that's what we've got to

16 address.

17 I'm just looking at it from a regulatory

18 standpoint. I have this document, let's say, that comes

19 across and says that, you know, we're pulling down this

20 game. Now, am I as a regulator being asked to determine

21 is the reason for pulling it down legitimate? And I

22 don't know that I can determine that other than by

23 saying that, well, has a percentage been met or has, you

24 know, something quantifiable been met as the standard

25 for me to approve that yes, you can bring this game

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1 down.

2 And my concern is that in this particular

3 case, if there is not some definitive something, and

4 that could be different from location to location, it's

5 going to be very difficult -- it would be difficult for

6 me to just say, well, I like that reason or I don't like

7 that reason.

8 MR. McGHEE: Okay. So you would say

9 controls should be in place for the game that prevent

10 blank, blank, blank, blank? Because if you say that,

11 then under TGRA you decide how you're going to go about

12 doing that.

13 MR. WILSON: If the wording is

14 appropriate, no, I'm not opposed to. I guess what I'm

15 questioning is can we get there through regulation? I

16 don't know.

17 I mean, obviously, in Washington they

18 have addressed this issue by coming up with a

19 theoretical percentage, that that has happened and that

20 you cannot bring that game down unless you can prove

21 that you have met that payout, correct?

22 MR. WHEATLEY: From what it sounds like,

23 that is the general best practice from an operator, is

24 that they try to ensure that there has been -- typical

25 hold percentage is like 25 percent on the pull tab. So

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1 the house keeps 25 and 75 percent is awarded back to the

2 player. And they try to maintain that.

3 But there can be certain instances, like

4 Kathi had mentioned, where a game does not get played

5 because maybe the prizes aren't rich enough or there is

6 other -- if you have a large pull tab operation, maybe

7 there is 30, 40 different bins of different games, and

8 those other games are just so much more popular that a

9 game can sit there two to three, four days. And an

10 operator chooses, at that time, to pull it down because

11 it's just not getting any play.

12 So there are instances where an operator

13 does want to pull it maybe before a minimum payout

14 percentage has occurred.

15 MR. McGHEE: Do they have a procedure

16 when they want to do that or they just decide --

17 MR. WHEATLEY: They just decide based on

18 the amount of play.

19 How do we address that in whether it's a

20 regulation or a guidance? It's just simply maybe

21 explain the reason why it's been pulled down and given

22 some type of report to explain it, similar to how you

23 have to explain any type of variance, three percent plus

24 or minus, why that occurred.

25 MR. McGHEE: I think it should be

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1 identified is it an inherent risk. Everybody has

2 created a policy on it, which means there is a risk.

3 MR. WHEATLEY: It is a risk at smaller

4 places, the information that I'm getting, that yeah, it

5 definitely is a risk, there are operators that do do

6 that.

7 MR. WILSON: So is the concept, then,

8 that the mere reporting requirement of having to report

9 to the TGRA a reason, that is the deterrent piece, not

10 so much what the reason is as the analysis by the TGRA,

11 but the mere fact that the operator has to report a

12 reason, whatever that is, that's what the control is,

13 not the control is that plus it can only be certain

14 reasons. Because where we're getting hung up on is,

15 well, what are all the reasons that it could or couldn't

16 be, but the control is the reporting mechanism is in

17 place that you have to report it.

18 MR. WHEATLEY: I would think that just

19 the fact that a report needs to be issued to the

20 regulatory authority. It can be the regulatory

21 authority's authority to determine whether that was

22 justified or not, or simply that the reg just say it

23 needs to be reported.

24 MR. CULLOO: In Washington state, for

25 non-tribal entities, card rooms and bars and taverns

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1 that sell pull tabs, they're audited by the state. So

2 there are forms they have to utilize whenever they pull

3 a game off the floor, whether it's a reasonability test

4 on the hold percentage or whether, again, it's a game --

5 you decided to pull a dollar pull tab game up, nobody

6 wants to go that rich and when it doesn't sell you pull

7 it. Also, what you have to do is you maintain the bag,

8 whatever was left, stapled with the flare, and that's

9 their checklist to come in and make sure that the flare

10 is always maintained for a period of time so that they

11 can audit it and they can say yes, you did pull it, we

12 weighed it, and it is what you say it is. But there is

13 a form that they have to maintain on every game and the

14 reason you pulled it.

15 MR. WILSON: So again, this concept that

16 the control, again, from a federal level, the control

17 being advocated is that the gaming facility operator has

18 to report, but that's the extent of it. What happens

19 beyond that is left up to each entity. Yes?

20 MR. McGHEE: Yes. Because if I can

21 report, then if the TGRA said why did you do this, they

22 can look into it and make sure you're not doing anything

23 wrong.

24 MR. WILSON: So the question, then, is if

25 the current standard does not require reporting of, then

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1 that's the change that needs to be in there?

2 MR. McGHEE: Yes, a mechanism for what

3 you just said.

4 MR. FISHER: All right. So I've been

5 playing with different ways of hearing how people have

6 said this. So what's up on the screen are some of the

7 changes to the inventory section people have said, and

8 then at one point Daniel suggested a separate section on

9 game play. So if you're going to put something in the

10 regulation, this presents an option for how to do it.

11 Obviously, there could be others.

12 So given it's just a few minutes before

13 we're supposed to break for lunch, so we could either --

14 we could work this a little bit more in the full group,

15 we could ask Daniel and Tom and anybody else who is

16 interested to work it over lunch a little bit. So what

17 do you want to do? Or Dan and Tom and Jeff.

18 MR. WILSON: I'm okay to break for lunch.

19 I think we're very close to what we're trying to say.

20 MR. FISHER: You are, right.

21 MR. WILSON: I guess I'm less concerned

22 about where it goes than I am the concept that we agree

23 that when you're taking down a game that it is reported.

24 MR. McGHEE: So why don't we just make

25 that our recommendation, that it needs to be addressed.

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1 The recommendation is to address in the reg that, that

2 concern.

3 MR. WILSON: Yes. And I think we could

4 probably vote on that before lunch.

5 MR. FISHER: I don't know if that does it

6 or not. I'm getting there. Hold on one second.

7 MR. WILSON: It should be that the

8 standard should address.

9 MR. FISHER: Okay. Do we need anything

10 after that, or is that enough?

11 MS. HAMEL: I think it should be in the

12 guidance document, not the standard.

13 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: I do, too.

14 MR. FISHER: Okay.

15 MR. McGHEE: We're back where we were.

16 MR. FISHER: What did you say, Daniel?

17 MR. WILSON: We're exactly back to the

18 beginning.

19 MR. FISHER: No, at the beginning was is

20 this a risk that needs to be addressed. So we've

21 accomplished identifying that it is something that needs

22 to be addressed and that the way to address it is

23 reporting, it's not a minimum percentage or any of the

24 other ideas that came out.

25 So we have made -- we've gotten that far.

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1 And now the question is where does it get reflected. Is

2 it incorporated in the standard, in the reg, or is it in

3 guidance? And so we could just pause on that question

4 for now, take our lunch break, and pick up right there

5 when we come back. And then anybody that wants to talk

6 about it over lunch is welcome to do that.

7 All right. So by my clock it's -- we're

8 at our lunch break, so we'll start up again at 1:00.

9 (TAC meeting recessed at 12:00 noon

10 to be resumed at 1:00 p.m.)

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1 AFTERNOON SESSION

2 1:18 P.M.

3 --oOo--

4

5 MR. FISHER: Okay, folks. We're going to

6 start.

7 So where we broke for lunch was at the

8 point where we were discussing whether this question

9 about reporting the reasons for removing or ending a

10 pull tab game would be in the -- contained in the

11 standard, in the regulation, or as a part of the

12 guidance.

13 So anybody figure this out while we were

14 on a lunch break?

15 Michele?

16 MS. STACONA: I just have a question for

17 the NIGC to answer. Is this like a problem in Indian

18 country?

19 MR. WEST: We're talking about the

20 removal of games?

21 MS. STACONA: Yeah, or why you're making

22 this statement on here about, you know, before the deal

23 is done and all that, because is it going on right now?

24 MR. WEST: I think some of the committee

25 members have talked about issues with removal early and

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1 the fact that once they remove -- maybe the main risk

2 is, you know, with the pull tabs, once they're removed,

3 the boys stealing them and giving them to their friends

4 and cash them in or whatever. I think there were, if I

5 remember correctly, there were some committee members

6 that indicated there were some abuses that they were

7 aware of.

8 MS. STACONA: I guess I'm trying to find

9 out if it's an issue and you're bringing it up, how come

10 you didn't write a standard for it in 2010 or when you

11 had the opportunity? Why wasn't it addressed then?

12 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I don't

13 think we can -- I mean, we weren't involved then. I

14 don't know. I can't speculate on what they were

15 thinking.

16 But it is an issue. It sounds like some

17 folks around the table have discussed pretty good

18 opinions on it. Like I say, you know, this is a good

19 discussion. It helps me understand the issues, and it's

20 actually good for the overall effort here.

21 MR. FISHER: Okay, Daniel. What are you

22 thinking about regulation or guidance? Because I think

23 if you did guidance, you would probably get an okay

24 around the table.

25 MR. McGHEE: So it's on me?

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1 MR. FISHER: It's not all on you.

2 MR. McGHEE: Okay. If I speak from

3 Poarch Creek's point of view, if it doesn't end up in

4 this, it's going to end up in my standards, either way,

5 if I don't get push-back from my commission stating that

6 they won't let me write it in my standard. So I'm not

7 going to hold the group up if that's the only problem.

8 I think I've gotten the gist of what the

9 issue is, and they can decide whether there is a

10 recommendation or not. I think they understand the

11 concepts, so I'm good.

12 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: What are

13 you good with?

14 MR. McGHEE: I'm good with the fact that

15 it's out there on the table for you to know it's an

16 issue. So I'm going to put it in mine either way,

17 because I don't really know what every -- we never

18 really did a feel on how many people think that it -- we

19 never did a test to see who thinks it should be in or

20 not. So I don't really know where the group is with the

21 issue. And if it's a minority issue, then it's not that

22 important enough for me to sit here and talk about. I

23 just don't know if it really is. We never tested that.

24 MR. FISHER: How should we test it?

25 MR. McGHEE: The test is should there be

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1 something in the -- I want to know should there be

2 something in the regulation addressing the concern of

3 deals being removed from the floor prematurely, or

4 whatever you want to say, should there be something in

5 there.

6 MS. LASH: Reporting, right?

7 MR. McGHEE: Yes, reporting, at least

8 stating it's been removed from the thing and here is

9 why.

10 MR. FISHER: Okay. Why don't we test

11 what's up on the screen, test that. Can you read that?

12 I'll make it bigger.

13 MR. RAMOS: This is in the reg, not the

14 guidance document?

15 MR. FISHER: Yes.

16 So let's test that. So if you support

17 this change in the TGWG version of 543.8, raise your

18 hand, raise as many hands as you have.

19 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Let the

20 record reflect that only Dan raised his hand.

21 MR. FISHER: If you oppose putting it in

22 the regulation, raise your hand.

23 Twelve.

24 If you abstain, raise your hand.

25 Two abstains.

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1 MR. GARVIN: I oppose it being in the

2 regulation. I guess I -- I assume it's in here in the

3 guidance document with that sentence that says control

4 should require that each deal of pull tabs removed and

5 discontinued from play, that there is a summary report

6 completed explaining that deal being removed from

7 sellable inventory. That covers that.

8 But for me, going back to the regulation,

9 it still doesn't say, in my opinion, that you can't do

10 that. And that's why I liked the earlier suggestion of

11 adding abuse in there, so at least we can make that

12 determination at our level, that what you've done here,

13 which will be repeatedly done here, constitutes abuse,

14 because otherwise we don't have anything saying you

15 can't do that. We have a thing saying you have to

16 report it.

17 MR. McGHEE: My only concern was it

18 falling in the inventory section and that being clear

19 that that was considered inventory. If most people

20 consider that to be inventory if it's out on the floor,

21 then I'm good. But it should state whether or not

22 people who use pull tabs consider that to be inventory

23 if it's on the floor. If that's the general consensus

24 from people who do pull tabs, then I'm good with it.

25 But I just didn't that from the group,

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1 that it was clear that inventory included those kind of

2 things. I don't know -- I mean, I know Jeff and Leo

3 deal with them electronically. Do you consider the

4 inventory in the machine --

5 MR. CULLOO: Well, when I ran a card

6 room, yeah, we did consider paper, pull tabs as part of

7 the inventory, including the ones on the floor in the

8 bowls.

9 MR. McGHEE: So I would just interpret it

10 that way.

11 MR. WILSON: Under GAAP, it would have to

12 be part of inventory.

13 MR. McGHEE: Would it?

14 MR. WILSON: Yes. So I don't think that,

15 at least in my mind --

16 MR. McGHEE: As long as there is

17 something to say that inventory, by definition, includes

18 that, instead of taking an interpretation of anybody.

19 MR. CULLOO: It wouldn't be any different

20 than playing cards, dice, any gaming instrument.

21 MR. FISHER: Steve, would you like to

22 test this adding that or "abuse" in there?

23 MR. GARVIN: Yes.

24 MR. FISHER: So if you support this

25 change to 543.8(e), adding the word "abuse" in there as

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1 up on the screen, raise your hand.

2 That got everybody except two.

3 So if you oppose it, raise your hand.

4 And if you abstain, then raise your hand.

5 That got two. So there is another

6 consensus right there.

7 Well, maybe going to lunch helped us work

8 through that. Maybe not.

9 Okay. The next -- we're ready to move on

10 to the next comment, right?

11 MR. WEST: So is the recommendation that

12 something go in the guidance?

13 MR. FISHER: The recommendation is that

14 the standard in the regulation be changed to include the

15 word "abuse," and then people are, if I'm understanding

16 correctly, some people read the guidance to already

17 include it, the ability to address it. So we didn't

18 propose any changes to the guidance.

19 All right. So where is our next comment

20 in here? Is it under --

21 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

22 we talked about this. And I think what we wanted to

23 talk about next was the guidance on the risk assessment

24 on page five. And I will let Rest explain this a little

25 bit farther, about using internal audits versus -- for a

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1 revenue audit function.

2 MR. WEST: Well, I'll probably take a

3 step back. And maybe internal auditors, maybe there is

4 a more general term for who should be performing this

5 risk assessment. In some operations and entities that

6 I've worked with, internal auditors may not be the ones

7 that have the necessary expertise to perform risk

8 assessment. So I'll kind of take a step back from the

9 specific terminology of internal auditors performing the

10 risk assessments. Sometimes they don't have the

11 necessary experience to take a good look and determine

12 what the risks are.

13 The second to the last sentence says just

14 a general comment on an independent organizational

15 component responsible for pull tab operations. It's

16 kind of ambiguous, but I don't have any further

17 suggestion for changing that as far as the guidance.

18 MR. McGHEE: Is your thought that because

19 risk assessment is generally associated with some

20 specialized task by a specialized person that it should

21 be more just maybe say periodic program reviews may be

22 used instead of using the word risk assessment? Because

23 it says up here anybody who is independent of the

24 organizational component can perform this risk

25 assessment. And instead of saying risk assessment, that

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1 it would just be periodic program reviews may be used

2 and then that ties into program reviews, taking out the

3 risk assessment part of it. Is that what you're

4 thinking?

5 MR. WEST: Because this risk assessment,

6 it's just kind of general guidance in most of the

7 sections. And I probably wouldn't want to change it up.

8 Isn't this section (e) in most of the sections?

9 MR. FISHER: Most of the guidance

10 sections?

11 MR. WEST: Yes.

12 MR. McGHEE: It's a general statement in

13 all of them that you should do that, a general practice.

14 MR. WEST: So I don't have any overly,

15 you know, important reasons to do any changes to it, we

16 just made comments about the paragraph.

17 MR. RAMOS: Rest, who was your first

18 comment about, who would perform the risk assessment?

19 MR. WEST: I think that's probably when

20 we wrote up this comment that maybe internal auditors

21 are not the appropriate people to determine the risk

22 assessment.

23 MR. RAMOS: Who is the appropriate

24 person?

25 MR. WEST: Well, I think it depends on

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1 the operation, who has the experience. I mean, it could

2 be the general manager, it could be the head of the

3 TGRA, it could be your external auditor. Maybe you

4 brought an external auditor in or maybe even, not a

5 contractor, but a consultant in to look at the risk in

6 your operation.

7 MR. RAMOS: And the reason being because

8 you feel like the -- kind of a general statement that

9 the internal auditing function or the internal auditing

10 people for the TGRAs really don't have the ability to do

11 that or it's beyond their job scope?

12 MR. WEST: I'm not saying -- I'm saying

13 they could, but I'm saying in all cases I don't think

14 they would be the primary ones to evaluate the risk. It

15 depends on their knowledge and experience. You could

16 have someone who is purely capable of doing this and

17 would be the best person to do it, but I don't think you

18 can apply that to all situations.

19 MR. RAMOS: I think that's fair enough.

20 I say that because I look at our position in California,

21 and I mentioned this the other day, about the IRS risk

22 assessments and risk assessment criteria. And I really

23 see that, for the most part, TGRAs are picking up those

24 responsibilities. And to a large degree, there is this

25 whole push to train internal auditors to be able to do

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1 some other risk assessment stuff.

2 So I just want to kind of throw that out

3 there.

4 MR. WEST: I mean, take an IT risk

5 assessment. You usually want to bring in someone from

6 outside to do a risk assessment, vulnerability testing

7 and what have you, in IT. So it depends on what you

8 want to assess and the level of expertise in house.

9 MR. RAMOS: But for pull tabs, it's

10 inventory really. I mean, what else as far as technical

11 stuff?

12 MR. WEST: Well, electronic pull tabs are

13 pretty complex.

14 MR. RAMOS: Okay. I keep forgetting

15 about those.

16 MR. McGHEE: What I'm reading, they're

17 not saying you can't have a professional or you can't

18 have somebody who knows, they're not telling you that,

19 they're just saying whoever it is may not be the person

20 who is over that.

21 MR. WEST: Sure.

22 MR. MORGAN: Both those terms, agent,

23 independent, both those terms are defined, as well. It

24 kind of gives you some point of reference of what those

25 terms are meaning in this document.

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1 MR. FISHER: So is there anything more on

2 the risk assessment provision? And that I guess applies

3 across the board, right? Because we determined that

4 that section appears in every part of the -- it's in the

5 guidance for every section.

6 All right. So what's next on here?

7 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: If you

8 skip to page seven, we'll talk about the guidance for

9 cancellation or removal.

10 I think we're just a little bit unclear.

11 Maybe we can ask someone from the Tribal Gaming Working

12 Group to maybe explain the procedures or how this is

13 envisioned.

14 MR. WILSON: I'm sorry, what piece are we

15 on?

16 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Page

17 seven, the guidance for cancellation --

18 MR. McGHEE: It actually starts on page

19 six.

20 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Right,

21 exactly. It starts at the bottom of page six, and then

22 our comments are about a little short of halfway down on

23 seven. And it talks about the procedures for when pull

24 tabs are damaged during shipping and how they are put

25 into play.

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1 I mean, is this a common practice? Has

2 this happened? Has it ever? I mean, I'm assuming it's

3 not that common.

4 MR. WEST: I think we just wanted to

5 throw it out to the committee and see if this is

6 everything that -- it's all encompassing for their --

7 the controls and the guidance provided for use and

8 damaged pull tabs and winning pull tabs.

9 MR. FISHER: Well, is there any feedback

10 or anything anybody wants to say about this part?

11 No? I'm hearing nothing. You want to

12 move to the next one or do people need a few minutes to

13 read this one?

14 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yeah,

15 maybe.

16 MR. FISHER: Let's just take a minute or

17 two to read it.

18 So where we are is on page seven here,

19 right?

20 MR. WEST: So is the question is the

21 guidance clear enough for everybody or is it too much

22 guidance or should things be added? Because I have

23 experience with damaged pull tabs and I have very little

24 experience with -- I've never been in -- I've only been

25 in one operation that actually sold pull tabs, and they

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1 were from a machine, one of these cigarette machines.

2 MR. FISHER: Kathi?

3 MS. HAMEL: And I believe that was the

4 example when the TGWG met for information from people

5 who had more knowledge of pull tabs, is that the

6 machines can jam and crinkle the pull tab itself. And

7 it was important that it not be opened, that it just be

8 handled separately, because if it was the winning one,

9 you don't want to -- you want the agents to know exactly

10 what it is. That was the example. And the reason that

11 you surrender a damaged winning is because there would

12 have to be payment for damaged -- potentially somebody

13 damaged their pull tab.

14 So the reason that the standard was -- or

15 the -- not the standard, that the guidance had two

16 different conditions was because one required paying on

17 that pull tab and the other one was to get it out of

18 circulation.

19 MR. WILSON: The statement in the NIGC

20 comment, the last sentence was in these situations the

21 payment would affect the theoretical hold of the deal.

22 Is that a true statement?

23 MR. WEST: I guess the question is how is

24 it handled as far as the reporting, whether it's in the

25 statistical reporting, is it actually reported, or is it

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1 just canceled and removed.

2 MS. HAMEL: I believe it's handled the

3 same way as in the other pull tab, that it's just not

4 sold, it's dispensed and not sold. So there is no sale

5 for it and there is no win for it. So the same -- so

6 there is no revenue or prizes for it. But a winning

7 would be part of your overall sale and prizes.

8 MR. WEST: I mean, I'm okay with that,

9 because it's going through the cage, and the cage will

10 send it to accounting, and it should get into the

11 analysis through that procedure. And the revenue audits

12 gets the --

13 MR. CULLOO: It does bring up the point,

14 though, if you run it through complete and the top award

15 is never found, some might wonder where the hell did it

16 go, and you can't tell them, because you have a damaged

17 one and it might have been in there and it wasn't opened

18 and looked, and something else nefarious could have

19 happened.

20 So that's the only problem with that, is

21 not -- I mean, normally when you get damaged, you would

22 cancel the whole game and make the vendor give you a new

23 bowl to protect the integrity of the game. But if it's

24 a machine dispensed, then it's --

25 MR. FISHER: Okay. So is the conclusion

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1 that there is nothing more that needs to be done to

2 this?

3 MR. McGHEE: I think you just track that

4 you did it. If you did it, it tells you to track it so

5 there is a record.

6 MR. FISHER: Kathi?

7 MS. HAMEL: I have a question, having

8 never worked directly with pull tabs. But isn't there a

9 potential that a patron could purchase a pull tab and

10 it's a winning pull tab and never redeem it?

11 MR. WHEATLEY: Possible.

12 MS. HAMEL: And it could potentially be

13 the grand prize, right?

14 MR. CULLOO: Sure.

15 MR. WHEATLEY: Sure.

16 MR. WILSON: What are you saying?

17 MS. HAMEL: Well, the fact that that pull

18 tab is damaged and not open to determine whether it's

19 the top prize or not is not any different than if a

20 customer purchased a pull tab and never redeemed it to

21 the outcome and the theoretical of the game.

22 MR. WILSON: Well, that's why I was

23 asking the question does this really impact the

24 theoretical or not? I mean, to me --

25 MR. CULLOO: It wouldn't impact the

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1 theoretical at all, no.

2 (Simultaneous discussion.)

3 MR. WILSON: I'm just trying to clear the

4 comment that NIGC had, that these scenarios would affect

5 the theoretical hold. I'm just trying to establish is

6 that a true statement or not?

7 MR. WEST: That's correct.

8 MR. WILSON: That's not a true statement?

9 MR. WEST: No, it's not.

10 MS. HAMEL: The theoretical of the game

11 is the theoretical.

12 MR. WEST: It never changes. It would be

13 the actual hold.

14 MR. FISHER: Everybody cross that out and

15 write actual.

16 MR. WHEATLEY: Did he want that on the

17 record or what?

18 MR. FISHER: Well, have we done enough on

19 this.

20 Okay, what's your next comment? We're on

21 seven now, top of page eight. Is that the next one?

22 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yeah,

23 actually, bottom of page eight on reconciliation.

24 MR. WEST: Actually, top of page eight.

25 MR. McGHEE: The top of page eight says

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1 it appears to be consistent with industry standards,

2 right? So that's good. And the next one says it

3 appears to be consistent with industry standards, so

4 that's good.

5 MR. WEST: Top of page eight.

6 MS. HAMEL: The top of page eight?

7 MR. WEST: Yes.

8 MS. HAMEL: It's the same bad grammar.

9 It's not a matter of not doing a log, it's where is the

10 location of that log, as we had in cards. Sorry.

11 MR. WEST: So it's where you maintain it.

12 MR. WILSON: Where they're controlled.

13 There is no dispute that logs are required.

14 MS. HAMEL: Yes, it's the location.

15 MR. FISHER: Is it the same number?

16 Maybe that's a universal suggestion.

17 MS. HAMEL: Yes. And I'm sure it's

18 probably in bingo, too.

19 MR. FISHER: Well, we haven't talked

20 about the bingo guidance yet. So do you want to make

21 that clarification about this same clarification?

22 MS. HAMEL: Yes.

23 MR. FISHER: What's the number in the

24 guidance?

25 MR. WEST: A(5)(ii).

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1 MR. FISHER: So we have that down as

2 something that the committee reached consensus on with

3 respect to card games. And so it's -- do we need to

4 test the consensus again to put it in here or can we

5 carry it over?

6 MS. HAMEL: Well, it's in the guidance,

7 right?

8 MR. FISHER: Right. So you could just

9 say it this way, right?

10 Okay. So do we need to take a formal

11 vote on this, or because it's a carryover from something

12 we already agreed on, we are just applying it to the

13 same -- it's the same principle, different section.

14 Okay, anybody want to call for a vote?

15 Do so right now, otherwise --

16 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

17 it's just (ii).

18 MR. FISHER: Okay. What is next on here?

19 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: We want

20 to talk about inventory reconciliation, which I guess

21 starts at the bottom of page eight and our comments are

22 at the top of page nine.

23 MR. McGHEE: I was looking at that. Help

24 me find it. Is it 543.19?

25 MR. FISHER: 19 is the accounting

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1 section, right?

2 MR. WEST: My comment, I think in the

3 guidance documents it should say monthly, month end. I

4 mean, you can do an inventory more often than that, but

5 I think general best practices, a month-end inventory

6 should be taken to tie into your monthly financials.

7 MR. WILSON: So the accounting on 543.19,

8 where it says that you must do this inventory

9 reconciliation in accordance with 543.19, on page ten of

10 that document --

11 MR. FISHER: Of which document?

12 MR. WILSON: 543.19, page ten, number

13 four, it says monthly audits, the following audits

14 should be performed not less than monthly, reconcile

15 inventory records to the amount of revenue

16 recognized, verify inventory balances and review reports

17 at specified intervals, dah, dah, dah, dah.

18 So it looks like in the accounting and

19 auditing controls, it is acknowledging that monthly --

20 part of a monthly audit is the reconciliation of

21 inventories.

22 MR. McGHEE: Specify intervals should be

23 in accordance with 543.19, which is monthly.

24 MR. WEST: But monthly could mean every

25 month on the 15th of the month.

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1 MR. McGHEE: Whatever it says on 19.

2 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: It just

3 says not less than monthly.

4 MR. FISHER: So what's the issue, Rest?

5 MR. WEST: It's not in sync with your

6 financials. You're recording your revenue on a monthly

7 basis, and if you have adjustments from your

8 inventory -- it's just general best practice that, being

9 a paper inventory, pull tab inventory, various and

10 sundry inventories are done at the end of the month.

11 Just like saying inventory your food and beverage at the

12 end of the month, but then you've got, you know, revenue

13 recorded on a monthly basis.

14 MR. FISHER: I got it. So it's a timing

15 question about syncing up with the financials?

16 MR. WEST: Yes.

17 MR. WILSON: I don't disagree with what's

18 being said, but I think the GAAP -- I mean, it should

19 be -- in revenue accounting, part of your month-end

20 close process has to include the reconciliation of

21 inventory balances in order to close the books.

22 So I'm not sure that -- I'm not sure that

23 doesn't happen anyhow or if -- if you're keeping your

24 financials in accordance with GAAP, then, by definition,

25 you would be reconciling those inventories on a

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1 month-end schedule, I would think.

2 Now, whether people actually do that or

3 not I don't know, but that's -- that's what would be

4 inherent from a GAAP standpoint.

5 MR. WEST: So then they would need to do

6 it twice? Would somebody be doing inventory twice a

7 month?

8 MR. WILSON: No, I'm just saying that

9 there is probably a disconnect in that the wording here

10 is saying that it needs to be done monthly. What you're

11 saying, though, is that depending when it's done in the

12 month can have an outcome on your period close. But

13 what I'm saying is that you wouldn't, under GAAP, do an

14 inventory at the 15th of the month, you would do it at

15 the end of the month to coincide with your close.

16 MR. WEST: Right.

17 MR. WILSON: So if this -- if the issue

18 is that, in reality, the monthly inventories should be

19 done to coincide with your financial closing, then

20 that -- it's more appropriate to say that than to say

21 just it should be done monthly, although I think the

22 GAAP addresses that, but it may not be evident on its

23 face.

24 MR. WEST: So what is your suggestion?

25 MR. WILSON: Well, I think if we talk

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1 about that the financials, and we've said this

2 throughout various documents, need to be in accordance

3 with GAAP, I think it's inherent that it's already

4 there, because that inventory process has to take place.

5 So if the risk is that somebody would

6 conduct an inventory, let's say, on the 15th but that

7 truly isn't reflective of the financial statement -- and

8 that's really what we're getting up to. The point of

9 that inventory is to reflect accurately in the financial

10 statements. That's going to happen at month end. If it

11 wasn't happening then, an audit should reveal that. To

12 be in accordance with GAAP, this inventory process has

13 to take place as part of your month-end close.

14 MR. FISHER: So does that mean you want

15 to propose a change to the guidance or --

16 MR. WILSON: Well, I don't know. I mean,

17 from my perspective, I don't think a change is

18 necessary, but I have an understanding of GAAP. So to

19 me, I know that if I were conducting these inventories

20 or if I were a CFO at a casino, I'm going to include

21 that process as part of my monthly close.

22 Now, there could be, though, other

23 reasons to conduct inventories more frequently that

24 don't have to do with the financial close but have to do

25 with other risks or considerations that you have in your

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1 operation. But the inventory that counts should be the

2 one that's done at month end for the period at close.

3 So you merely have a -- in here, this

4 control is talking about inventory as a control

5 mechanism to ensure that you can account and reconcile

6 your inventory. It is not, necessarily, speaking to the

7 reason you inventory for financial reporting purposes.

8 But again, I think that that is already

9 covered in GAAP. I don't know that it has to be said

10 here, given the context of what I believe the reason

11 that it's even saying that you must inventory and

12 reconcile. This would be more looking at, you know,

13 discovering fraud or things of that nature in the

14 inventory. And you may want to do that weekly because

15 you had some problem that you were doing. But that

16 inventory is not going to be the inventory figure that

17 is used for purposes of your financial statement

18 reporting.

19 MR. WEST: Wouldn't it provide better

20 guidance to the smaller gaming operations I'm advocating

21 to say at specified intervals and at month end?

22 MR. WILSON: Well, I mean clearly, if --

23 you know, again, I'm just speaking off the cuff because

24 I don't know, but the month-end component, if they do it

25 for month end but don't know why they're doing it for

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1 month end, and if that's being done at month end but

2 nothing is being reconciled up to the financial

3 statements, then it really doesn't matter. Yes, they

4 did it at month end but it didn't flow through the

5 financial statements.

6 So my concern would be that the -- you

7 know, there is two risks here. There is the risk that

8 financial statements are incorrect because this

9 inventory wasn't done or you can't substantiate the

10 inventory was done, but the -- if you're prescribing

11 that the public accounting firm or whoever is verifying

12 that the financial records are being done in accordance

13 with GAAP, then one of the things that they're verifying

14 is that inventories are happening at the prescribed

15 basis according to GAAP in order to conclude on the

16 financial statements.

17 I mean, I don't think it hurts to say

18 that, but I just am saying that there is two distinct

19 issues here with inventory reconciliation. One of them

20 is potentially to help uncover fraud or things of that

21 nature, but the other thing is clearly the accounting

22 mechanism for accounting for inventory and ensuring that

23 those transactions flow up to the financial statements.

24 I don't know if this guidance document

25 was really specific to both of those components, the

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1 accounting component, or if it's focusing more on maybe

2 the fraud component, that that's what the concern was

3 here focusing on that. I suspect it's the latter.

4 MR. WEST: I just don't see why you

5 wouldn't recommend doing both, but that's -- month end

6 is when you're going to really see if your inventory --

7 obviously, it's the best time to reconcile your

8 inventory. But sometimes you get your books open at the

9 end of the month to make sure you've got all your pull

10 tab purchases in. So unless you have another means to

11 do that, then I just think it's logical that it's month

12 end. And you do your internal control function and your

13 financial statement function at the same time. And

14 that's generally how it's done in the industry.

15 And we may get into this situation, too,

16 where we're talking about this federal reporting for

17 pull tabs or bingo or whatever, it might say -- I don't

18 know if any of this says that, but, you know, at least

19 monthly, statistical analysis reports should be

20 generated and reviewed and what have you.

21 You know, logically at month end is the

22 time to do that, because it will -- those should tie

23 into your financial statements.

24 MR. WILSON: Well, maybe a better

25 question is does anybody know if their facilities

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1 conduct inventories of this nature at any time, or does

2 everybody conduct a month-end inventory regardless of

3 what other inventories may have occurred?

4 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: No one

5 does inventory?

6 MR. WHEATLEY: We always conduct a

7 month-end inventory.

8 MS. THOMAS: Month-end inventory.

9 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: But you just do it

10 monthly?

11 MR. WHEATLEY: I'm sure there is

12 spot-checks in between then and there, but the main

13 inventory is monthly for financials.

14 MR. CULLOO: Some inventories you

15 reconcile daily, like cards and that kind of stuff. But

16 for the most part, it's the monthly.

17 MR. FISHER: So are we -- you know, we've

18 kind of gone back and forth that it's covered but it's

19 not explicitly stated. Do you want to make a

20 clarification that something should be explicitly stated

21 about the time period?

22 MR. WILSON: Well, perhaps the best

23 practices suggest that those inventories should be

24 conducted in conjunction with the monthly financial

25 close, or whatever financial close period it pertains

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1 to.

2 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

3 it's helpful to just keep in mind that the challenge we

4 face is creating a regulation that encompasses the

5 entire industry, which is so diverse and has different

6 levels of sophistication. So as clear as you can make

7 it, I think it's better.

8 MR. FISHER: Okay. So that's what I

9 heard. Can you read that? Is there enthusiasm for

10 testing this?

11 MR. WHEATLEY: You might just want to add

12 a (g).

13 MR. FISHER: Add a (g)?

14 MR. WHEATLEY: (g)(4), it's in the

15 section (g)(4). No.

16 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Isn't it in the

17 guidance documents?

18 MR. WHEATLEY: Well --

19 MR. FISHER: (g) is all the audit stuff.

20 (g), it's (g).

21 MR. WILSON: That's a consistent

22 statement throughout this.

23 MR. FISHER: So it doesn't -- it's kind

24 of a general -- it's a general recommendation, not

25 necessarily with respect to pull tabs.

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1 MS. HAMEL: It needs to be in accounting.

2 MR. FISHER: Yeah, the accounting

3 section.

4 MR. WHEATLEY: Which is what that is,

5 right?

6 MR. FISHER: No, this is in pull tabs.

7 MR. WHEATLEY: But you're citing 543.19,

8 which is the accounting section (g).

9 MR. FISHER: I can move both of those to

10 the accounting section (g). Sorry, I got ahead of

11 myself.

12 All right. So shall we test this, making

13 this a general recommendation in terms of clarifying in

14 the accounting guidance? So are we ready or do you need

15 a minute? It's page ten in the accounting guidance.

16 Okay, let's try it out. So if you

17 support this clarification in the accounting guidance,

18 raise your hand.

19 Okay, that got everybody. I'm going to

20 pick it up from here and move it to the --

21 MS. HAMEL: Matthew has something to

22 bring up.

23 MR. FISHER: Wow, that put Matthew on the

24 spot.

25 MR. MORGAN: If you're looking at your

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1 comparison document, the comment right after four, if

2 you look, it's listed as bingo card sale voids in

3 the pull tab document. And the NIGC comment appears to

4 be consistent with industry practices, which may be

5 true, but it probably could be in the pull tab section

6 there. It looks to me that we have a problem with the

7 guidance document there.

8 MS. HAMEL: We have a typo in the

9 guidance document.

10 MR. MORGAN: The guidance document says

11 (g), pull tab sales.

12 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: It refers to bingo.

13 MR. FISHER: Mia was ready to jump all

14 over that.

15 MR. MORGAN: And at four, suddenly we

16 jump back to bingo cards. And I'm not for sure why.

17 MR. WEST: You won the prize. We were

18 waiting to see who was awake enough to see that.

19 MR. MORGAN: In your comments you just

20 said consistent with industry standards.

21 MR. WEST: Which is a true statement.

22 MR. MORGAN: It is a true statement.

23 MR. McGHEE: Who wins the prize, Kathi or

24 Matthew?

25 MR. WEST: Whoever submitted them. No,

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1 Matthew does. He pointed it out.

2 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Ready to

3 go on to the next one?

4 MR. FISHER: Yes.

5 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: The next

6 item that we want to discuss is -- it starts at the very

7 bottom of page ten, it says physical reports, but the

8 comment is on page eleven. And basically, the comment

9 was theoretical versus actual hold percentages and

10 whether or not this comparison was being done.

11 Is this an issue that you think should be

12 done or is -- I know we talked about theoretical hold or

13 is it actual hold here in different sections here.

14 MR. FISHER: Any response? People still

15 looking? Yes, okay.

16 MR. WHEATLEY: I think it's another

17 avenue to report as to why you may have removed a game

18 early. It's probably going to show up on that. If you

19 do that analysis of the theoretical versus the actual

20 hold, you're probably going to see a variance in that

21 case. So it would be another instance, another check.

22 MS. HAMEL: I just have a question,

23 because I don't -- if the deal can't -- does not play

24 out to the end of its cycle, comparing the actual

25 against the theoretical has no value if you don't know

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1 what the unplayed values are. So what does that

2 analysis tell you if that deal is not played all the way

3 through?

4 MR. RAMOS: And for which reason is it

5 not played all the way through?

6 MR. WHEATLEY: It would require you to

7 report why it wasn't played all the way through.

8 MS. HAMEL: Right, you reported why.

9 Let's say because nobody is playing it. What value does

10 comparing the actual win of that deal against the

11 theoretical add?

12 MR. RAMOS: So are you pulling out the

13 whole deal or half of the deal because nobody is playing

14 it after -- is the case that after they've already won

15 the top award?

16 MS. HAMEL: Statistics --

17 MR. McGHEE: (Inaudible).

18 MS. HAMEL: Pardon me?

19 MR. FISHER: I didn't hear what Daniel

20 said. I'm sorry.

21 MR. McGHEE: I think if you're comparing

22 it, you're comparing it to see that it paid out as it

23 should have. If it didn't, that means somebody has

24 tampered with it.

25 MS. HAMEL: If the whole deal was

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1 purchased. So if the whole deal was purchased, I could

2 understand the statistical analysis of actual with

3 theoretical. If it's not, I don't know what the

4 statistical relevance is.

5 MR. WHEATLEY: And I don't think the -- I

6 don't think it really clarifies whether that analysis is

7 done to a game that's been fully purchased or one that's

8 been pulled early, it just says that it will be done.

9 So for all games. And I would imagine a minority of the

10 games are going to be ones that are pulled early.

11 So for the most part --

12 MS. HAMEL: I don't know what the

13 statistical relevance is.

14 MR. CULLOO: If you were to have -- like

15 for instance in Washington state, they say the game has

16 to have a minimum add of 60 percent. So if you're

17 testing to a standard like that, it does have value,

18 because you know how much you sold in tickets, what's

19 left in the prize pool. And you really know what your

20 actual is at any time, because you know what your actual

21 is and if you have a minimum that you actually have to

22 pay out, whether that's what you're comparing it

23 against.

24 MS. HAMEL: Right, but that's not --

25 that's different than comparing the theoretical against

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1 the actual. That's comparing the actual against a

2 regulation that says you have to have a minimum payment.

3 That's a different analysis. I'm just talking about

4 statistical relevance that if it's not completely sold,

5 that theoretical isn't statistically relevant to an

6 analysis.

7 MR. WILSON: A better term than

8 statistically relevant is that it's not statistically

9 valid.

10 MS. HAMEL: The hold isn't there.

11 MR. WILSON: Right.

12 MS. HAMEL: And the theoretical is based

13 on the hold.

14 MR. WILSON: Yes.

15 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Do I hear

16 most of these games are not fully played?

17 MR. CULLOO: Most of them are not.

18 MR. WEST: Most of them are.

19 MR. CULLOO: Are not. It would be rare

20 that one would be fully played.

21 MR. FISHER: You said are not, he said

22 are.

23 MR. CULLOO: Are not.

24 MR. WHEATLEY: As soon as the flares are

25 marked off, the game is taken out.

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1 MR. WEST: This also covers electronic

2 pull tabs.

3 MR. CULLOO: Oh, all right.

4 (Simultaneous discussion.)

5 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Does the

6 group think there is a value in this? I mean, I hear

7 some that it may not be all that relevant, some saying

8 that it could be, there is an opportunity to identify

9 fraud or --

10 MS. THOMAS: Statisticals, specifically

11 how she's explaining it, because a statistical report

12 isn't going to be valid against the -- until it's all

13 done, because with the flare, like you were pointing

14 out, if they're all marked off and we have 20 pull tabs

15 left in that bowl, nobody is going to buy them. So

16 they're going to be pulled and then they will be based

17 on those numbers.

18 MR. FISHER: So you're already doing it.

19 MS. THOMAS: Yeah.

20 MR. FISHER: I guess the question would

21 be whether the guidance is for those people that need

22 recommending that it be done, for those that aren't

23 necessarily doing it. Maybe everybody is.

24 MS. HAMEL: I think that in the guidance

25 document we've said that there is an analysis and

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1 somebody is looking at the sales against the win. I

2 think -- I just don't know about comparing it to the

3 theoretical.

4 MR. FISHER: I'm not hearing a lot of

5 enthusiasm for it.

6 MR. WEST: Well, my point is not -- I

7 agree statistical comparisons are not valid, but at the

8 end of the month, say you run your statistics for your

9 pull tab deals, your electronic pull tab games, and

10 you've got one that's off by 20 percent, it also shows

11 it's not completed, that would be -- but it also has

12 some indicator to say it was pulled out of the server.

13 So wouldn't you want the person in

14 revenue audit to identify the reason for that, that it

15 was actually pulled off the floor on July 16th, 2011 and

16 that would be the reason? I mean, you wouldn't get into

17 any detail about why the statistical fluctuations are

18 sky high, but as a control, you would know that that

19 game was pulled off the floor and that's the reason.

20 I mean, I wholeheartedly agree that the

21 statistical comparison is not even valid because the

22 deal was not played out. But the reason for a

23 statistical reporting may be other -- you know, may have

24 other functions.

25 MS. HAMEL: I believe there has to be

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1 statistical reporting, I just don't know the value of

2 comparing it against theoretical in this case. So yes,

3 it needs to be reviewed.

4 MR. WEST: I think somebody needs to be

5 looking at what is run through the servers and if there

6 is some big fluctuation. And the reason should be

7 easily identifiable by revenue audit if they've been

8 notified the game has been pulled out of the server.

9 Maybe it was malfunctioning or something or maybe

10 they -- maybe they closed the whole bank down and they

11 took that deal off the floor.

12 I mean, that's something that I think

13 operations or revenue audit people should know about.

14 MR. McGHEE: That would be best practice,

15 right, to do it, to point out best practices?

16 MR. WHEATLEY: So, Kathi, is your

17 argument specifically that it's being evaluated against

18 the theoretical? Is there a better measure for it to go

19 against? We do that with keno, where we have a floating

20 average of what our actual hold percentage is for twelve

21 months. And then on a monthly basis, we evaluate what

22 our current month hold percentage was against our last

23 twelve months to see if there is any variance. I'm just

24 throwing that out there.

25 MR. WEST: But how does that compare to

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1 the pull tab deal? Because you've got lots of keno

2 games being played, and I understand the holds can be

3 different based on what numbers the players have picked.

4 We're talking about the statistics for one deal.

5 MR. WHEATLEY: One particular game.

6 MR. WEST: Which has a theoretical hold

7 that should be hit if all the pull tabs are selected.

8 MR. WHEATLEY: Right.

9 MR. WEST: And I think some operations

10 probably run reports that show -- maybe it's under

11 Washington state law, they can only run the closed

12 games, or maybe that was -- I was thinking about one

13 time they had that rule that you couldn't go in and look

14 at the actual percentages until the actual deal was

15 closed.

16 MR. WHEATLEY: I believe that's correct.

17 MR. FISHER: Still today?

18 MR. WHEATLEY: Yeah, you can't know the

19 actual percentages of a live game.

20 MR. CULLOO: Because then you shut it

21 down once you hit the minimum.

22 MR. WEST: Or you tell your buddies go

23 play this game because the big ones haven't hit yet, so

24 they go cash in the bank.

25 MR. CULLOO: But those games, they're

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1 holding about 25 percent for the house. So you're going

2 to look at them in operations and see why are all my

3 games holding only 50 percent on my pull tabs? What's

4 going on there?

5 So I mean, it's not a real formal

6 analysis, it's just you know in your head that this is

7 what it's supposed to be. And I know, based on

8 experience with pull tabs, that that's not correct.

9 MR. WEST: So maybe it should just

10 discuss the ones that you pulled off the floor or

11 complete. I don't know, but they run through the entire

12 deal. And if you get to the end of the deal and if

13 there is a fluctuation, what if somebody has cheated you

14 or there has been a malfunction in the game or

15 something? I don't know.

16 MR. RAMOS: So what would that proposed

17 language look like? I'm ready to vote on it. I think

18 you've got a good point, but --

19 MR. FISHER: Right, but he's the only one

20 pressing on it.

21 MR. WILSON: I think Kathi acknowledged

22 that if we're limiting this to closed games, then that's

23 okay, because you can actually do the analysis. So it

24 seems to me the issue is that this guidance or issue

25 that in order to do the analysis that NIGC would like to

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1 see, that can only be done on closed games.

2 MR. WEST: Or maybe you do it like your

3 slot analysis; you get to a certain threshold like on

4 your PAR sheets, maybe if 75 percent of the deal has

5 been played, at that time, you look and see where you

6 are and see if there is any crazy fluctuations. I don't

7 know. Because I think you said now that the sets are up

8 to $10 million or something?

9 MR. WHEATLEY: Well, I was talking video

10 monitors. I doubt that the physical pull tabs --

11 MR. WEST: I think it could vary by

12 operation. I don't know. It would be something with

13 the operation you would want to determine.

14 MR. WILSON: In the accounting and

15 auditing section, where it talks about monthly audits

16 again and it says review reports at specified intervals

17 for statistical fluctuations (inaudible) best practice

18 suggests using a three percent threshold, does that

19 address any of this issue or --

20 MS. HAMEL: Not to that.

21 MR. WEST: I think you would look at it

22 like a PAR sheet. I mean, if you're at a low number of

23 holds, your range of theoretical holds or actual holds

24 could be, you know, all 15 points until you start

25 getting in your -- toward the end of your cycle. You

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1 should be approaching that theoretical hold on your PAR

2 sheet. So whatever they have now. I think it's PAR

3 sheets now.

4 MR. FISHER: So does that capture it,

5 what's here, or should it say best practices?

6 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: By

7 requiring that on only fully sold-out games, would that

8 compel someone to not -- or an operator to not have a

9 fully completed game, or if someone inside was doing

10 something dishonest?

11 MR. CULLOO: One is statistical. The

12 other reason is non-statistical that you might pull a

13 game.

14 MR. WHEATLEY: I think that instance is

15 only going to happen on an electronic game. I can't

16 foresee it on a physical game. It's just nearly

17 impossible to sell every single tab, I would think.

18 MS. HAMEL: And you're always doing the

19 statistical analysis. My comment was that comparing it

20 to the theoretical did not add value and you still have

21 the statistical analysis, as this document indicates.

22 MR. FISHER: Okay. So are we making any

23 clarification or suggesting any clarification as to

24 what's in the guidance or to respond to what Rest has

25 been asking about or talking about?

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1 MR. CULLOO: Well, that doesn't really

2 address the two forms of pull tab, electronic and paper,

3 because you're not going to sell out paper. So that's

4 not a correct statement.

5 MR. WHEATLEY: It just wouldn't apply.

6 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: That's

7 true, it wouldn't apply.

8 MR. WEST: I think you would also want to

9 maybe not do the analysis but review -- like run reports

10 to show all games taken off the floor or deals taken off

11 the floor, just know that there is a reason.

12 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: How long does it

13 take for the deals to sell out? I mean, if it took six

14 months, per se, and then you'd do an analysis after

15 that? I mean, it's kind of a long period.

16 MR. WHEATLEY: I think it depends on the

17 size of the game and the venue itself.

18 MR. WEST: Popularity.

19 MR. WHEATLEY: From what I was hearing is

20 that if a game is on the floor for two to three days,

21 that's too long. So they sell out that quick.

22 I don't think there is a large amount of

23 tabs themselves. There might be 1,000, 2,000, maybe

24 10,000 maximum tabs in a physical game. So they go

25 through them I think pretty quick. It's the electronic

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1 versions where you get the larger pool sizes, millions

2 of them.

3 MS. HAMEL: I thought those electronic

4 versions had systems that gave you the statistical

5 comparison?

6 MR. WHEATLEY: I'm sure they do.

7 MS. HAMEL: So it comes with the system.

8 MR. FISHER: Okay. So are we making a

9 recommendation on clarification or -- I can't tell.

10 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: It

11 doesn't appear they want one.

12 Okay, so let's move on to the next one.

13 Nobody wanted to say no.

14 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Actually,

15 the last question that we have, and it may just be a

16 clarification here, there are other parts of the

17 document there that I'm not sure if anybody else wants

18 to comment on, but it is on just actually the next

19 section on technological aids. And the question raised

20 was in reference to the draw procedures. And I think

21 our question is this was actually just moved to another

22 section, right?

23 MS. HAMEL: (Nods head.)

24 MR. McGHEE: The drop section handles

25 it --

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1 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Okay.

2 MR. McGHEE: -- if it involves a drop.

3 MR. FISHER: That's it for you on pull

4 tabs?

5 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yes.

6 There is a lot of other areas that we didn't touch upon.

7 MR. FISHER: And there is a lot of

8 provisions in here that we didn't talk about. So how

9 would you like to handle those?

10 So does anybody have anything else on

11 pull tabs, since we've worked through all the NIGC

12 comments?

13 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Wait,

14 we've got one more.

15 MR. FISHER: Well, we almost worked our

16 way through the NIGC comments.

17 MR. WEST: Does anybody have any

18 experience with progressive pull tab games and does

19 anything need to be changed in the guidance in section

20 (l), progressive pull tabs?

21 MR. MORGAN: My attorney does go back to

22 when it was called Lucky Tab 2 back in the early 90s.

23 That's why I asked questions from back before.

24 MR. WHEATLEY: I've never seen one.

25 MR. FISHER: Yes, Kathi?

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1 MS. HAMEL: Do we need to make a formal

2 recommendation about changing the void section to say

3 pull tab or --

4 MR. FISHER: Changing the?

5 MS. HAMEL: In the guidance document from

6 bingo to pull tabs.

7 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Page eight.

8 MR. FISHER: Page eight of the guidance

9 document.

10 MR. MORGAN: (g)(4).

11 MR. FISHER: Say the section again,

12 Matthew?

13 MS. HAMEL: (g)(4).

14 MR. FISHER: So it should say pull tabs

15 instead of bingo?

16 MS. HAMEL: Yes.

17 Okay, raise your hand if you're okay with

18 that.

19 All right, that's good. We got that.

20 MR. McGHEE: I have a question about the

21 guidance documents. And we may have done it in other

22 areas, I just haven't noticed, that sometimes in the

23 guidance document it will say -- refer to 543.19, right?

24 But then it will say and the guidance provided in the

25 associated document.

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1 Do you think that's appropriate to, in

2 this guidance document, to have them refer to the

3 guidance documents provided, or should you just refer

4 them to the standard? For instance, page -- it's more

5 just an opinion. Do you see where I'm talking about?

6 MR. FISHER: So, Daniel, did you want to

7 propose --

8 MR. McGHEE: No. I was just asking

9 people's thoughts, if it's appropriate or inappropriate

10 to refer to --

11 MR. FISHER: I'm not getting any

12 feedback.

13 MR. WEST: Which page is that?

14 MR. McGHEE: It's on page seven.

15 MR. FISHER: Towards the top under IV.

16 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: It's the

17 associated document, what is -- I'm trying to see what

18 you're referring to or --

19 MR. McGHEE: No, it just makes a -- these

20 guidance documents, are they sort of the official

21 guidance documents? So I don't know if you should be

22 using them in that context. So just make note of that.

23 MR. FISHER: Okay. So before we move off

24 of pull tabs, let me just check, because there were

25 sections that we didn't talk about that didn't arise in

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1 the NIGC comments. So do you want -- is there any

2 discussion that we need to do on those and do you want

3 to make a recommendation to basically recommend the TGWG

4 version of those other sections, since we approved some

5 sections but not all the sections?

6 MS. THOMAS: I think (h) under cash and

7 cash equivalent controls should end with 543.14(e), like

8 we did in card games, just for consistency.

9 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: What page?

10 MS. THOMAS: Eleven.

11 MR. FISHER: Oh, in the comparison

12 document, is that what you're saying?

13 MS. THOMAS: No, I'm looking at the

14 actual proposed 543.

15 MR. FISHER: Right, it's a change to the

16 regulation. The very, very top, the last section is for

17 pull tabs. So this is Tab A we're in, Tab A, page

18 eleven, very, very top section. It's the same change we

19 made --

20 MS. THOMAS: There was some confusion on

21 what provision 543.14 referred to.

22 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Oh, okay.

23 MR. FISHER: It's a consistency change.

24 All right. So do you want to do these

25 one at a time, section by section in these, or do you

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1 want to just do a consensus, test consensus for the rest

2 of section 543.8 with these changes?

3 MR. WHEATLEY: Let's try it out.

4 MR. FISHER: So if you support the TGWG

5 changes -- if you support the TGWG proposal in 543.8

6 with the changes that we've made, raise your hand.

7 Okay, that got everybody. Perfect.

8 All right. Do you think we need a little

9 break before we -- yeah, let's take a break.

10 (Recess taken.)

11 MR. FISHER: Okay, let's start up again.

12 We're one shy. So we're moving on to 543.11. And for

13 those of you who missed it, we're back on track with our

14 agenda, actually, and it might be that we're able to get

15 done early tonight, or not.

16 Okay. So same question with respect to

17 each section. Do you want to start with a TGWG overview

18 or do you want to just go straight to the NIGC comments?

19 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

20 the first kind of question we have is a bit of an

21 explanation of these restricted, unrestricted accounts,

22 and how that relates to the Bank Secrecy Act and our

23 regulations. I don't know, do you want to talk about

24 this a little bit more?

25 MR. HOENIG: Yeah, just briefly. I'm not

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1 an expert on the Bank Secrecy Act, but in the bit of

2 research I've done, there are verification requirements

3 in the Bank Secrecy Act for certain transactions over

4 $10,000.

5 So I'm not sure what the unrestricted

6 deposit accounts -- I'm sorry, is it the unrestricted

7 deposit accounts? Exactly what that is, but any deposit

8 or any transaction of over $10,000 requires

9 identification and verification of the individual and

10 things like that.

11 So it doesn't look like the unrestricted

12 accounts require any kind of identification. And so

13 that could be a problem if somebody wanted to open an

14 unrestricted funds account for $11,000, for example.

15 MR. CALLAGHAN: We have to follow the

16 FINCEN requirements, so CPRCs and all that. We start

17 grouping it at $3,000.

18 MS. HAMEL: There is $10,001. There is

19 no ID below that.

20 MR. HOENIG: I didn't hear what you said,

21 Kathi.

22 MS. HAMEL: There is no ID below that.

23 MR. HOENIG: Below $10,000, right.

24 MR. CULLOO: Well, the IRS used to, I

25 don't know if they even have these, but the old

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1 multimedia machines where your players club card is your

2 account card.

3 MR. FISHER: Well, so --

4 MR. HOENIG: So I'm little confused

5 again.

6 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: We need

7 to understand. Can you give us some background? What

8 was the nexus for creating these two different accounts,

9 just overall, I mean, from someone who was on the Tribal

10 Gaming Working Group?

11 MR. FISHER: Well, it says it appears to

12 create two different accounts. Where are you reading it

13 creates two different accounts?

14 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Page two

15 of the comparison document.

16 MR. FISHER: Which section?

17 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: (4)(b).

18 MR. MORGAN: So for the Tribal Gaming

19 Working Group standard, our line of thought was this

20 would allow gaming operations and customer service in

21 order to create something, you know, to better provide

22 for their customers on a patron deposit account.

23 We got into a discussion that

24 historically, there were unrestricted patron deposit

25 accounts; specifically, the multimedia system, where it

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1 was -- it was before the days of TITO, but it was a card

2 basis where you could take the card. All you needed was

3 a PIN. You never had to provide identification, just a

4 four-digit PIN number. You take the card. That is how

5 you enabled the machine to play. Your credits you won

6 went to the card.

7 If you lost the card, you were just out

8 of luck. That was what you did when you chose not to

9 provide identification and treat it like a voucher, you

10 lost a voucher. But you had that ability. And there is

11 no reason to say you couldn't have that ability, because

12 you do understand that all of the Title 31 requirements,

13 whether it's restricted or unrestricted, still apply.

14 So once you hit the threshold, well, it's very clear in

15 here that Title 31 standards, if it's inconsistent,

16 prevail. So once you hit that threshold, of course you

17 had to provide everything in compliance with Title 31.

18 But as long as you fell into conformance of Title 31,

19 what prevented you from having an unrestricted patron

20 account.

21 MR. HOENIG: Right, I think the question

22 was there didn't seem to be any cap on it under the

23 guidance. I mean, not that I -- unless I missed it

24 here.

25 MR. MORGAN: In 543.11(c) it says

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1 conflicts of standards. If there is anything

2 inconsistent from these regulations, then external

3 standards incorporated by this provision, such as Title

4 31 (inaudible) and other such applicable standards shall

5 prevail. And that's the part of the regulation.

6 MR. HOENIG: Okay.

7 MR. MORGAN: So I agree, we may not have

8 specifically said it in the guidance, but that's where

9 we kind of pointed to and said of course we have to

10 defer and follow those statutes to be in compliance.

11 MR. FISHER: That works, Mike?

12 MR. HOENIG: Well, yeah. I just missed

13 that. So that makes sense.

14 MR. FISHER: Okay.

15 MR. HOENIG: Maybe we can refresh a

16 little bit what we talked about at the first meeting.

17 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I know we

18 talked about the term "agent" last time we met.

19 MR. FISHER: We made a change to it, too.

20 The change is -- just bear with me a second and I'll

21 show you.

22 No, you know where we made that change?

23 We made that change in -- we made that change in the

24 technical standards, not in the MICS yet. That's the --

25 you can't really see that, I know.

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1 The change in the technical standards was

2 to remove the last sentence of the definition.

3 MR. HOENIG: That was about the computer.

4 MR. FISHER: Yes, right, it was all about

5 the computer.

6 So go ahead, Mike.

7 MR. HOENIG: So just to raise the

8 question, I mean, to clarify that, an agent would still

9 be required to meet the background and licensing

10 requirements if they're performing the functions of the

11 primary management official or a key employee. I mean,

12 because what the agent is performing, you know,

13 examining a patron's ID card and opening accounts, I

14 mean, is that what the comment refers to, so to ensure

15 that they're undergoing licensing, backgrounding and

16 licensing as a primary management official, or

17 primary -- yeah, PMO or key employee?

18 MR. FISHER: Okay, everybody following

19 that?

20 MR. WEST: I guess do the job functions

21 entailed in this section rise to the level where they

22 would fall under the PMO requirements of whatever the

23 regulation is?

24 MR. HOENIG: 556.

25 MR. FISHER: Okay, so I think we need a

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1 second here for people to --

2 MR. RAMOS: PMO or key employee?

3 MR. FISHER: Did you hear the question,

4 Mike?

5 MR. HOENIG: No, I'm sorry.

6 MR. RAMOS: Are you saying PMO or key

7 employee, are you defining it straight as PMO, primary

8 management official or --

9 MR. HOENIG: Does it rise to the level of

10 primary management official or key employee?

11 MR. CULLOO: The definition of agent?

12 MR. FISHER: Are you talking about the

13 function that's in here?

14 MR. HOENIG: Yes, this talks about an

15 agent must examine the patron's identification.

16 MR. FISHER: What I hear him saying is

17 what's the appropriate level of the person performing

18 the function.

19 Is that right?

20 MR. HOENIG: Yes.

21 MR. FISHER: So in this section --

22 MR. McGHEE: Are you saying that it

23 should be a higher level agent? I mean, are you saying

24 just an agent, it should be some kind of an authorized

25 agent, or are you saying it should be an agent of a

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1 level of a key employee?

2 MR. HOENIG: I guess that's what we're

3 trying to --

4 MR. FISHER: Figure out why you did agent

5 and then see --

6 MR. HOENIG: So agent --

7 MR. CULLOO: Does the definition of agent

8 assume it has to be someone that's authorized to act,

9 whether a PMO or a key employee?

10 MR. HOENIG: It just says as authorized

11 by the TGRA to make decisions or perform assigned tasks

12 or actions on behalf of the gaming operation.

13 MR. WILSON: This was a question that we

14 raised, I don't know if it was the last meeting or the

15 one before, about this definition of agent and whether

16 an agent had to be licensed or not.

17 MR. HOENIG: Yes.

18 MR. WILSON: And part of the conversation

19 was, well, no, because an agent could be a vendor's

20 agent, it could be various things. And I voiced concern

21 then, and I'll re-voice it now, that there are certain

22 things, functions within the gaming facility that

23 probably rise to the occasion that somebody is supposed

24 to be licensed who is performing that function as

25 opposed to just being a named agent.

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1 So this is -- this raises the same

2 concern that I raised a couple months ago about are

3 there times when an agent has to be a licensed agent

4 versus just the definition of agent which could be a

5 non-licensed person.

6 MR. McGHEE: But the way it's defined, it

7 would be up to the TGRA to determine if that person

8 needs to be licensed to do that, not required to be

9 licensed.

10 MR. WILSON: I guess the question is

11 there are standards right now in IGRA that say what type

12 of people have to be licensed, key employee being one of

13 them. So the question that I see being raised is the

14 functionality surrounding patron accounts such that that

15 should be a key employee who performs that function.

16 MR. FISHER: That's the same question

17 they're asking down at the end of the table, too.

18 MR. MORGAN: Within IGRA, is it functions

19 or is it titles or is it both?

20 MR. HOENIG: It's functions.

21 MR. MORGAN: So if your function falls

22 within the requirement of IGRA, then you have to be

23 licensed. There is nothing about the regulation you can

24 do to get around that. So how you define, determine

25 agent, you look to their function and you look to IGRA,

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1 in most cases you actually look to your statute, your

2 gaming ordinance to say do I have to license this

3 person. It's independent of this particular section, or

4 really anything in the Minimum Internal Control section,

5 because that's an independent evaluation you do under

6 IGRA that's separate and apart, at least in my mind, of

7 MICS.

8 I see how it's related, but -- so when

9 you look at these, you read these functions and you look

10 back at your gaming ordinance and say, you know, do

11 these functions -- are these functions required to be

12 licensed. Because what you have on the flip side is if

13 you say this title has to be licensed, so what happens

14 if I just retitle it? You know, I've got around it.

15 So we tried to be broad and say, yeah,

16 it's an agent. Then you look to its function. If your

17 function says you have to license it, you license it.

18 Because some jurisdictions, their requirements for

19 licensing are a lot broader. Remember that last change

20 the NIGC made? You can add titles to key employees than

21 what's beyond IGRA. So if your gaming ordinance says

22 you license now the housekeeper that comes every third

23 Wednesday, you have to.

24 In my mind, for these functions at my

25 place, yes, this person would be licensed.

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1 MR. WILSON: But is the risk -- there is

2 that stupid word again, Dan.

3 MR. CULLOO: Don't use stringent.

4 MR. WILSON: Is the risk such that this

5 is a position that should be a licensed position?

6 MR. McGHEE: I don't think so. The

7 definition as defined in IGRA talks about someone who

8 makes over a certain amount of money and if they're

9 supervised or something else.

10 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Does it have to be a

11 person? Can it be a machine?

12 MR. FISHER: That question is still in

13 here.

14 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: But it could be.

15 You could have just a -- you know, in the future you

16 have a machine that takes your ID and it reads it, you

17 know, the bar code and it reads all the information and

18 it captures all of these things.

19 MR. WHEATLEY: It already does with the

20 multimedia system. There is a kiosk that you add

21 currency to through the multimedia system. Now, you

22 can't get currency off without seeing an agency, that I

23 know of, unless they have developed --

24 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: And that meets the

25 definition of agent. You still approved that to be an

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1 agent.

2 MR. McGHEE: What is it defined right now

3 as a key employee?

4 MR. HOENIG: Key employee is a person who

5 performs one or more of the following functions; a bingo

6 caller, accounting room supervisor, chief of security,

7 custodian of gaming supplies or cash, floor manager, pit

8 boss, dealer, approver of credit, and then custodian of

9 gaming devices.

10 MR. McGHEE: All right. So if this agent

11 is going to be having cash, right? Then by your

12 definition, he'll have to be a key employee.

13 (Simultaneous discussion.)

14 MR. CALLAGHAN: Just for point of

15 clarification, on the CTRC form, the cash transaction

16 form, there is a line on there that calls for agent.

17 And an agent is someone that is not performing the

18 normal duties of an employee. Just so that we're clear,

19 we're putting this in a particular box, because there is

20 some language in here I noticed before so that we're not

21 in conflict with FINCEN or whatever.

22 MR. WHEATLEY: Because they have a

23 different definition of agent.

24 MR. CALLAGHAN: So just to be clear, when

25 you fill out a CTRC form, there is a box in there for an

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1 agent to perform something. And I want to be sure that

2 we're not confusing that with that and/or not being in

3 conflict with Title 31.

4 MR. WHEATLEY: Because in that instance,

5 and correct me if I'm wrong, an agent in that instance

6 is someone that's assisting someone in superseding the

7 Bank Secrecy Act by cashing out for them on their behalf

8 of the portion of the funds.

9 MR. CALLAGHAN: Now, someone on the floor

10 could collect a marker from a patron on the floor. That

11 would be their normal duties. And we're saying how

12 someone had to be licensed internally. However, an

13 agent under the CTRC form would not be an employee

14 performing its normal duty, it would be someone paying

15 off the mark of some third party or something of that

16 nature. Just so that we just bring it out.

17 MR. McGHEE: I think the way it's written

18 as an agent is fine, because if that agent is going to

19 do certain functionalities, then they will be considered

20 a key employee by the definition.

21 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: We're

22 good with that.

23 MR. FISHER: So the next comment is a

24 should or shall or must on the guidance.

25 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

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1 we've worked through those. The next is on page five,

2 back to agent. I think we talked about that, right? I

3 think we've already addressed that?

4 MR. FISHER: Covered agent on page five?

5 MR. HOENIG: Yes.

6 MR. FISHER: All right. So now six is

7 back to these two different accounts, restricted and

8 unrestricted.

9 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: And I

10 think we talked about that, right?

11 MR. HOENIG: Yes, that's what we

12 resolved, that's taken care of.

13 MR. FISHER: So the next one would be on

14 page seven.

15 (Simultaneous discussion.)

16 MR. FISHER: That's it.

17 MS. THOMAS: So it's just generally the

18 same issues throughout the whole section.

19 MR. FISHER: One was in the reg, one was

20 in the guidance, same issues.

21 Okay, folks. So NIGC has worked through

22 all of their comments up here at the front of the room

23 on section 543.11. So the question now is whether

24 anybody else around the table has any -- has any

25 comments or wants to discuss any portions of 543.11.

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1 So do you want to do a -- we can see if

2 we could do a general test to do the whole section

3 543.11.

4 So if you support the TGWG version of

5 543.11, there is only one change in it, which is the

6 standard change to the subsection (a) that we did last

7 time, raise your hand.

8 Voila, that's it. 543.11, done.

9 MS. HAMEL: They didn't vote.

10 MR. CULLOO: The Blue Man group.

11 MR. CALLAGHAN: We were caucusing.

12 MR. FISHER: It's allowed, any time.

13 MR. WILSON: Could I have a point of

14 order question?

15 MR. FISHER: Okay. What is it, Tom?

16 MR. WILSON: I'm just doing a check,

17 because it appears that we're ahead of schedule now. If

18 I'm not mistaken, officially, the next and last topic is

19 543.12 --

20 MR. FISHER: Correct.

21 MR. WILSON: -- that we have to cover,

22 and then we're ahead of the game?

23 MR. FISHER: Yes.

24 MR. WILSON: Okay.

25 MR. FISHER: Yes, you're right. So we

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1 talked briefly about that when we came back from the

2 break.

3 MR. WILSON: Okay. See, this is what

4 happens when one does not come back timely; they ask

5 dumb follow-up questions.

6 MR. FISHER: All right. So here we are.

7 It's 3:30. Now we're ahead of schedule, officially.

8 We're supposed to go until 5:00 tomorrow. We only have

9 one more item on our agenda for which the comparison

10 documents for this meeting have been prepared. We do

11 have to -- well, I'm guessing, I'm making the -- yes, we

12 probably have to go back to bingo, because in the bingo

13 conversation we talked about the regulation, we did not

14 talk about the guidance in Rapid City. So we have to

15 return to bingo.

16 And I don't know. If we can work from

17 the comparison document that was prepared for Rapid

18 City, then we might be able to put that on our agenda

19 for this meeting, as well, for tomorrow, or whether NIGC

20 has been doing more detailed review of the guidance

21 documents based on coming out of Rapid City and that you

22 need to do more work, to go back and review the bingo

23 guidance.

24 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

25 it would be a great idea if we could maybe work on this

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1 tomorrow. I mean, I'm pretty confident -- bingo, right.

2 I'm pretty confident that the document that we have is

3 ready, but I would like to talk amongst ourselves first,

4 if that would be okay, and then maybe address it

5 tomorrow. But that would be really helpful to get that

6 out of the way.

7 MR. GARVIN: Wait, now you guys want to

8 go in a closed session?

9 MR. WILSON: Is that in your own

10 executive session that you want to talk amongst

11 yourselves?

12 MR. CALLAGHAN: Can we sit in?

13 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: You're

14 more than welcome to.

15 MR. WILSON: I just want to make a

16 proposal, then, that we get through 543.12 today and

17 then adjourn for today, and then tomorrow we can pick up

18 this discussion with bingo and whatever ancillary items

19 are still out there, and reward ourselves with the fact

20 that we're ahead of schedule.

21 So it doesn't appear that we probably

22 need to go until 5:00 tomorrow.

23 MR. FISHER: Correct.

24 MR. WILSON: We may be knocked off by

25 lunchtime.

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1 MR. CULLOO: If we finish way ahead of

2 schedule, can we not go to Kansas?

3 MR. FISHER: If we get done with our work

4 earlier, of course. And we might be able to. Who

5 knows?

6 All right. So let's do 543.12 now and

7 then we'll adjourn the meeting once we're through

8 543.12, if that's five minutes or 90 minutes. We will

9 have to check for public comment before we adjourn for

10 the day, and then we would pick up in the morning on the

11 bingo guidance, and then, more likely than not, be done

12 early tomorrow.

13 Okay. So let's go to 543.12. It's

14 pretty thin comparatively.

15 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: It's a

16 big subject.

17 MR. FISHER: So much for my optimism.

18 Okay. Where are we starting? NIGC comment number one

19 on --

20 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Since

21 this is a new section, maybe the Tribal Gaming Working

22 Group could give us a little overview.

23 MR. FISHER: Okay. Who is going to give

24 us -- Kathi? Go ahead.

25 MS. HAMEL: I thought I remembered. If I

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1 remember right, embedded in Class III gaming machines is

2 player tracking. And as a group, we thought it had

3 enough merit to be independent of bingo, card games,

4 pull tabs, because player tracking can be related to any

5 type of gaming revenue, not just bingo, not just card

6 games, not just pull tabs. So we pulled it out. So

7 that was the reason for a new section, rather than

8 embedding it just in bingo.

9 MR. WEST: Well, the comment that was

10 brought up on page one was developed by Nimish. And I

11 expect everyone knows his background in gaming and his

12 knowledge of scams and abuses throughout the industry.

13 He indicates that it's been a pretty common form of

14 abuse or prone to abuse.

15 I would expect that several of the gaming

16 operations in here have been knowledgeable or been

17 abused by -- through their player tracking system. So

18 the comment is it's basically pretty short on standards

19 for player tracking.

20 I try to go to the IA Gaming Conference

21 every year in Las Vegas. I know the last two or three

22 years, the vice-president of internal audit for MGM

23 indicates that the most common form of abuse that they

24 see is related to player tracking. And this is an

25 individual that oversees 30 casinos' internal audit

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1 functions. And I'm sure there is other stories in here

2 that probably -- specific stories as to operations in

3 here that have been scammed through their player

4 tracking system.

5 So this is a comment that -- I support

6 his comment.

7 MR. CULLOO: Does the main abuse occur

8 during the manual adjustment of points, is that where

9 you're seeing it?

10 MR. MAGEE: Well, in our case, it's

11 stealing the database. One of the employees from

12 Harrah's works for you a while and then he goes to MGM

13 or somebody and he's got the database from MGM.

14 MR. McGHEE: Ours is stealing the free

15 play.

16 MR. FISHER: Sorry?

17 MR. McGHEE: Ours is stealing the free

18 play, people changing (inaudible).

19 MR. CALLAGHAN: Rest, the aspect of not

20 only closed but absolutely inactive accounts, I think

21 that's your biggest area. Like Arizona, your snowbirds,

22 they go away and someone could know who is not coming

23 back to play.

24 MR. WEST: No, I'm just talking about the

25 comment on the standard. I think the comment as far as

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1 closed accounts is on the last page, one of the last --

2 bottom of page three. But I'm sticking to the general

3 comment that Nimish has developed for the standards

4 developed by the TGWG.

5 MR. McGHEE: I think the reg is

6 consistent to say you should cover the security of

7 accounts, which is where all this comes from. And the

8 way in which you do that is portrayed in the guidance

9 documents. It just says you should have controls

10 that -- you should have controls that prevent

11 unauthorized access, cheating, misappropriation, all

12 those things when it comes to your accounts, when it

13 comes to the in-house operating and in-house accounting.

14 That does cover all of it.

15 If anything, then maybe he's concerned

16 that the guidance document may not be flushed out or

17 strong enough, not the actual reg. And that may have

18 been a comment made prior to seeing the guidance

19 document. I don't know.

20 MR. WEST: No, he just made it last week

21 or two weeks ago.

22 MR. McGHEE: Because it's no vaguer or

23 broader than all the others have been in that sense.

24 MR. MORGAN: What did the 2010 draft

25 regulation 543.7(g) state? I'm trying to read it and I

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1 can't find it. He says it's not consistent with what

2 was in that document, but I don't know what version to

3 compare it against.

4 (Simultaneous discussion.)

5 MR. FISHER: I'm looking for the actual

6 thing in here. Hold on a second, I'll go to the Web

7 site and bring it up.

8 All right. What was the subsection?

9 MR. HOENIG: (g).

10 MR. FISHER: Can you give me something

11 to --

12 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Reference

13 point?

14 MR. WILSON: 543.9, in the July 2010

15 draft MICS at 543.9(i) is the section on the

16 computerized player tracking systems. Is that what

17 we're looking for?

18 MR. MORGAN: No. The reference he's

19 pointed to is about patron deposit accounts.

20 MR. FISHER: Right, it's right here, it

21 starts right up here. I don't know if you can see that.

22 MR. WEST: I think he's got the wrong

23 reference.

24 MR. WILSON: (g) doesn't deal with -- I'm

25 wondering if he's citing the wrong reference, because

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1 the player tracking is at 543.9 (i) in the document.

2 The document I'm looking at, July 2010

3 draft MICS, 543.9(i) is computerized player tracking

4 systems. And it says in the TGWG version there is no

5 comparable statute.

6 MS. HAMEL: In card games.

7 MR. WILSON: Yeah, I'm sorry, you're

8 right.

9 MR. FISHER: Voila, right to the spot.

10 So just to be clear, what's up on the

11 screen is the 2010 version, proposed version of 543.7,

12 card games.

13 MR. MORGAN: Card games?

14 MR. FISHER: Yes.

15 MR. MORGAN: It should be .9.

16 MR. WHEATLEY: Yeah, that's where he's at

17 now.

18 MR. FISHER: .9, card games, and we're

19 looking at section (i). It's two pages, three pages.

20 All right. So we're looking at this

21 because this is what we believe Nimish was referencing.

22 Yes? And I guess this arose from a question about

23 whether these things are covered or not covered in the

24 guidance, right?

25 MS. HAMEL: Well, I think the comment was

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1 against the regulation, not against the guidance.

2 MR. FISHER: I thought there was a

3 question whether it was covered in the guidance because

4 the regulation sets the standard that would encompass

5 all of these things.

6 MS. HAMEL: It's very possible -- is it

7 possible that the comment made about the regulation was

8 before the guidance was presented?

9 MR. WHEATLEY: No.

10 (Simultaneous discussion.)

11 MR. McGHEE: The regulation is not

12 supposed to provide guidance. That's what the guidance

13 documents are for.

14 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Little, I have a

15 question for you.

16 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: We're

17 thinking we can't guess what Nimish was thinking when he

18 wrote that, but we're thinking he wasn't kind of -- kind

19 of of the understanding of the direction of this

20 risk-based approach and how these would relate to

21 guidance.

22 So you know, clearly from -- it seems

23 like in his opinion, you know, when you are removing the

24 specific direction in the regulation, I think that's

25 what was kind of promoting him to write that. I don't

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1 know. We can check with Nimish and get back with you in

2 the morning. He's still in training right now. That's

3 why he's not here. Otherwise he would be here.

4 MR. McGHEE: Because I don't think the

5 way it's written is out of line with the way the others

6 have been written, as far as the regulations.

7 MR. MORGAN: That was going to be my

8 question. On the paragraph that Nimish wrote, the

9 second sentence says the current provision reflects only

10 minimal best practices. It's a qualifier for an area

11 that's prone to abuse. But the point of the standards

12 is to be minimal best practices, which -- I mean, if you

13 recognize it's minimal best practice, it seems like we

14 may have hit the target. Now we flesh it out in the

15 guidance.

16 Yeah, I would like to know his thoughts.

17 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yeah,

18 we'll get in touch with Nimish tonight.

19 MR. WHEATLEY: So are we specifically --

20 is it specifically the addition and deletion of points

21 that he's talking about? I mean, I'm looking in the

22 guidance, and it does state some of the similar, but I

23 know for a fact that there has been cases in Washington

24 state, at a property that has extensive expertise in

25 operations, where this scam has happened and significant

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1 losses occurred.

2 MR. MORGAN: It makes a big difference to

3 me personally about whether he's talking about adding

4 something to the regulation or whether he's talking

5 about adding something to the guidance.

6 MR. WHEATLEY: No, I agree, I think it

7 should be to the guidance, but I think the guidance

8 could be strengthened regarding this portion, meaning

9 that any addition or deletion of points needs to be

10 reviewed by a department independent of that operation.

11 Or of that department, of the player tracking

12 department.

13 MR. McGHEE: So can we just go to the

14 guidance comments?

15 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yes.

16 MR. FISHER: So the addition or deletion

17 was section two. Section three deals with employees who

18 redeem points. I don't know whether that's covered in

19 the guidance.

20 MR. WILSON: I'm not sure that what the

21 guidance lacks is a more robust description of the risks

22 that are inherent, because when I look at the draft 2010

23 document, it talks a lot about who can redeem points and

24 at what level that should happen and adjustments to

25 accounts. And when I look through the guidance

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1 document, there is only one discussion about, you know,

2 you must have controls around the redemption of points

3 or something.

4 But I think -- I'm not speaking for

5 Nimish, but I'm speaking for in our own facility, the

6 problems that we see deal with redemption of points or

7 inactive accounts or people getting points moved from

8 one account to another that shouldn't be. And points,

9 player tracking, you know, does have a value to it. So

10 it's not like it isn't -- it doesn't have an impact if

11 there are problems in your player tracking system.

12 MR. McGHEE: Security of accounts is what

13 you're talking about.

14 MR. WILSON: Yes.

15 MR. McGHEE: Which is what the reg says.

16 We just got to make sure the guidance document provides

17 guidance to people to make sure they are secure.

18 MR. WHEATLEY: Exactly.

19 MR. WILSON: This is an area where you

20 want to be very clear about what the risks are in the

21 guidance document you're trying to mitigate, because it

22 is an area that absolutely is prone to fraud, waste and

23 abuse.

24 MR. MORGAN: So we need more input from

25 Nimish, I guess from the NIGC on what their concern is

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1 here, because -- or is there enough impetus amongst the

2 committee they don't think the guidance is strong

3 enough?

4 MR. FISHER: You could make a

5 recommendation.

6 MR. MORGAN: If they want to draft

7 something, is that a committee assignment or --

8 MR. McGHEE: He's got to point out in the

9 guidance document what he thinks would be stronger. So

10 the group will either agree or disagree with that.

11 MR. WHEATLEY: I think we should go

12 through the comments in the guidance, because right on

13 here they're specifically saying what they feel is not

14 strong enough, and I think that we can comment on that.

15 MR. FISHER: Plus then you can ask Nimish

16 tonight whether there are other comments based on the

17 risk-based approach.

18 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: We do

19 have some of those comments on the guidance.

20 MR. FISHER: They'd like to go through

21 those. That's what they're saying. So let's go through

22 those. Let's turn to the guidance comments.

23 MR. WEST: Probably I think page three, a

24 third of the way up the page talks about adjustments to

25 player tracking activities. We discussed the comment on

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1 page one.

2 MR. McGHEE: Page two, I'm sorry.

3 MR. WHEATLEY: Risk assessments, it's the

4 same stuff.

5 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Same

6 stuff.

7 MR. WHEATLEY: Let's go to the meat of it

8 on three.

9 MR. WILSON: I mean, I think that first

10 comment about the guidance on adjustments to player

11 tracking activity, I personally don't disagree with what

12 is being said here, that in the guidance there needs to

13 be greater emphasis on the issues that are identified in

14 that NIGC comment.

15 MR. WHEATLEY: Absolutely.

16 MR. McGHEE: Could you go so far as the

17 recommendation is that we agree it should be expounded

18 upon without us saying what it should be?

19 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: We can do

20 that.

21 MR. McGHEE: Otherwise everyone may do it

22 differently.

23 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Right.

24 MR. FISHER: Kathi?

25 MS. HAMEL: I just want to kind of bring

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1 up a point. I know we focus in on adjustments, but I

2 don't believe the abuse comes from adjustments but from

3 manual systems and awarding points manually that aren't

4 through a system.

5 MR. WHEATLEY: It's an adjustment, right?

6 MS. HAMEL: No, it's not. And I think

7 that's -- an adjustment would be an adjustment to a

8 point balance for some other reason than play. And I

9 think that in the guidance document, we talked about

10 manual player tracking. And that's what can take place

11 and where the most of the abuse can be, that patron A

12 had $1,000 in play and they really only had $100 in

13 play.

14 So we seem to focus on adjustments, but

15 that's really manual tracking.

16 MR. CULLOO: Not necessarily. If someone

17 is playing the machine and they say their card reader

18 wasn't working, then they expect some type of manual

19 adjustment to compensate for it's not their fault, they

20 didn't know the machine up to the card reader wasn't

21 capturing their play.

22 MS. HAMEL: Right, and that would be an

23 adjustment because their card wasn't working. But if

24 you have a manual player tracking in card games, you

25 don't have a card.

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1 MR. WILSON: You're talking about a

2 manual player tracking system, right?

3 MS. HAMEL: Yes.

4 MR. WILSON: I didn't even know there was

5 such a thing.

6 MR. CULLOO: Oh, yeah.

7 (Simultaneous discussion.)

8 MS. HAMEL: What you described is

9 absolutely an adjustment.

10 MR. CALLAGHAN: Well, we have an

11 electronic player tracking, and that still may be

12 manually adjusted.

13 MS. HAMEL: And that's an adjustment.

14 MR. WILSON: Manual as in --

15 MR. CULLOO: You're saying you don't have

16 an electronic way of capturing points.

17 MR. WHEATLEY: But are you saying the

18 electronic adjustment doesn't need to be addressed here?

19 MS. HAMEL: No, I'm saying that in our

20 guidance document we addressed both of those, and that

21 manual player tracking has probably more risk than

22 adjustments, because adjustments, there is going to be,

23 in most cases, there is a paper trail. But it's manual

24 player tracking, it's the higher risk than just

25 adjustments.

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1 MR. WHEATLEY: But I think even the

2 guidance documents aren't strong enough on the

3 adjustments on the electronic systems, in my opinion.

4 MR. MAGEE: Kathi, your concern is then

5 over rewarding?

6 MS. HAMEL: I don't want everybody to

7 think that that's the only weakness. I mean, not a

8 weakness, but the fact that you can have manual player

9 tracking, that there would have to be really strong

10 controls if you have manual tracking.

11 Let's say you don't have a card reader

12 and you're going to track all of your bingo players and

13 all of your card game players manually.

14 MR. WEST: That's a manual player

15 tracking system. And that's what you're discussing, as

16 opposed to a computerized player tracking system.

17 MS. HAMEL: But you may have a

18 computerized system for awarding and accumulating it,

19 but you may have to manually enter the information.

20 But you may only have a card reader on

21 the bingo side but you don't have it on card games.

22 MR. WEST: The first property I worked at

23 had a manual slot player tracking system. It was just

24 the most abused thing I've ever seen.

25 (Simultaneous discussion.)

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1 MR. FISHER: Okay, so we've got two

2 conversations going.

3 MR. CULLOO: What was your question?

4 MR. FISHER: Did you want to say

5 something for the whole group, or was that a side

6 conversation?

7 MR. WILSON: I'm not sure.

8 MR. FISHER: Did you want to restate your

9 question?

10 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Oh, I was

11 in a side conversation.

12 MR. WILSON: Kathi and I were

13 discussing -- I don't want it to get lost. I would

14 agree that a manual system is inherently riskier than an

15 automated system, but I don't -- I don't think there

16 should be a false sense of security that because it's

17 automated it's any less prone to fraud, waste or abuse,

18 because that isn't the case.

19 And so from that standpoint, I just know

20 that in our own property that this is always a concern

21 to us. And a lot of it revolves around these manual

22 adjustments to the system that are done by an employee.

23 And the -- for example, we use the Advantage system.

24 And you're supposed to, when you make this adjustment,

25 make a log entry, because you have an electronic log

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1 says that says the reason for the adjustment.

2 The biggest issue we have is a reason

3 never being documented about why that adjustment is

4 made, which is your theoretical paper trail that's

5 supposed to give you comfort that that adjustment was

6 made for a legitimate reason.

7 So it's important if you have the

8 controls that the people understand the purpose of those

9 controls. And that's where, from my opinion, that the

10 guidance document is lacking in giving a little more

11 clarity to why these things are important.

12 MR. McGHEE: It sounds to me like a fair

13 broad recommendation is to strengthen the guidance

14 documents. I don't think we can come up with the

15 specifics here. So the only recommendation would be

16 that the guidance documents just be more strengthened

17 for this reg. The easy way out, the only way out.

18 MR. FISHER: Well, you could -- so I was

19 capturing some of what was being said, but you could

20 just do that, what's up on the screen.

21 MR. McGHEE: And then I know the main

22 keys were adjustment points that you said, right?

23 Everyone at the table could tell you the different

24 problems they're having. There are IT standards.

25 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: In future

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1 sections of the guidance, we kind of also highlight some

2 areas that probably also need some stronger guidance on

3 inactive accounts or, you know, transfer of points

4 between patrons. So if you wanted to do it all in

5 one --

6 MR. McGHEE: I'm wondering if maybe we

7 would look at all of them we would agree that the

8 comment from the NIGC be our recommendation that yes,

9 they need to be restricted. Take it now when you can

10 get it.

11 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Are you

12 trying to make happy hour?

13 MR. McGHEE: I'm saying that we might

14 agree with your comments.

15 MR. FISHER: We could just do that.

16 MR. McGHEE: If it's all about

17 strengthening, then I'll say yeah.

18 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: What's the

19 definition of a player tracking system?

20 MR. McGHEE: Is there one?

21 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: No.

22 MR. FISHER: Trick question.

23 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Then I just need to

24 raise the concern that we have, is that the player

25 tracking system where we run Class II and Class III

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1 together, you know, where this is only going to have

2 jurisdiction over Class II and really your player

3 tracking system is looking at everything. Well, now,

4 how do you -- you would be looking at everything, not

5 only jurisdiction of this part. I just wanted to bring

6 up those concerns.

7 MR. CULLOO: That's a big concern.

8 MR. WILSON: Yeah, that's a valid point.

9 Our player tracking system complies with our compact

10 requirements, Class III requirements, even though there

11 is Class II components to it. And that's what we would

12 default to.

13 MR. CULLOO: In our case, our player

14 tracking is embedded in our Class II server. So the

15 state has no control over it even though it interfaces

16 with Class III machines.

17 MR. McGHEE: So you would follow NIGC's

18 standards?

19 MR. CULLOO: So I would follow NIGC's

20 rules, right.

21 MR. WHEATLEY: Our player tracking is

22 Class II for that reason. Well, for a bunch of reasons.

23 MR. FISHER: So should we go through the

24 rest of the comments and then come back and see what the

25 recommendation may be about strengthening the guidance?

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1 MR. McGHEE: There is only two more

2 comments.

3 MR. WILSON: Are we at the bottom of page

4 three?

5 MR. McGHEE: Yes, only one more comment.

6 MR. FISHER: Bottom of page three,

7 inactive accounts.

8 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yeah, it

9 talks about inactive accounts or fluctuations in player

10 accounts, transfers of points, things like that.

11 MR. WILSON: Again, for me, I can't

12 disagree with anything that's being said here from a

13 guidance document perspective, but there needs to be

14 more emphasis on the risks that are inherent in a player

15 tracking system, is I guess how I would say it.

16 MR. FISHER: Can you say that again?

17 MR. WILSON: That there needs to be more

18 emphasis on the risks associated with a player tracking

19 system, whether it's a manual system or an automated

20 system. It is an area that has widespread abuse, and

21 therefore you really want to -- you want to be as

22 educated as you can be through the guidance about the

23 risk associated with the system to ensure that you put

24 in place adequate controls.

25 MR. WEST: And you don't want to be

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1 linked into too specific on the guidance, because there

2 is probably hackers out there that are devising ways to

3 get into your player tracking system that you're not

4 going to -- we're not going to outline in the guidance

5 documents. I mean, it's like everything else. People

6 are probably sitting in the parking lot trying to figure

7 out how to scam this casino right now in ways that no

8 one in here has ever thought about.

9 MR. McGHEE: Some of these are maybe

10 mitigated more in the IT section, a lot of computer

11 related and how those accounts are set up and how to

12 protect it. It's covered in IT, also.

13 MR. WILSON: It is covered or should be

14 covered?

15 MR. McGHEE: It won't specifically

16 address like player tracking, but since this is a

17 computer-automated system that holds these kind of

18 accounts, then there is going to be IT controls over it.

19 MR. WEST: But in a lot of small

20 properties, you may have one IT person that's doing

21 everything.

22 MR. McGHEE: There is still controls.

23 They might have one IT guy, but there is still controls.

24 MR. FISHER: So up on the screen there is

25 a couple of different formulations to -- for a potential

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1 recommendation, one of which is just do that or --

2 MR. McGHEE: Well, I think strengthening

3 the guidance as the one liner and those are the --

4 MR. MORGAN: I will note, when we did

5 this on the work group level, that there was strong

6 discussion, just like in promotion and comps. When you

7 get outside the authority that -- the limited authority

8 NIGC has, whether you're getting back into is it a good

9 idea, but is it a good idea for him to say it or is it a

10 good idea for Brian to say it?

11 That was some discussion. And I think

12 some of that thought process is reflected in the

13 guidance at what level they kind of kept it at. And so

14 while I may not disagree that in the best practices you

15 need to do that, it's a question of, again, where is it

16 coming from.

17 MR. McGHEE: For the same reason you

18 deleted promotions you would delete player tracking on

19 this. It has nothing to do with gaming. You don't have

20 to have player tracking at your facility, it's a choice.

21 In essence, it is a promotion. You're getting points

22 for playing. You're getting points you can do fun stuff

23 with. It's the same reason that NIGC doesn't have

24 authority over player tracking.

25 MR. MORGAN: It was one of those issues I

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1 would say there was not consensus. And you see

2 sometimes, as we went through our document, where we

3 fell at sometimes changes a little bit. But that was a

4 strong discussion within our group at least on

5 authority, we set you guys up for failure by publishing

6 something and somebody knows they're waiting out there

7 to kind of throw a rock or is it so inherent of a risk

8 that you do it or is it something that you take care of

9 some other way? That discussion point was brought up.

10 So I know we've looked at the guidance

11 and you all say I don't think we've gone far enough, but

12 that is the thought process of maybe why it didn't go

13 far enough on some of these subjects.

14 MR. McGHEE: You all have already tackled

15 this. (Inaudible). The same concept lies behind both

16 of them.

17 MR. CALLAGHAN: I'm getting to like you

18 guys so much I hate to say this, Mr. NIGC, but it's not

19 a gaming matter, it's not a Class II gaming matter, for

20 that matter, it's not gaming dollars. And for the same

21 reason that Matthew articulated about the --

22 rearticulated about -- what was the last subject? I'm

23 running for president. I can't remember what he said.

24 The promotions. I do agree it's very

25 important, it's extremely important, it is one of our

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1 greater areas potentially for abuse because there is so

2 much money in it anyway, easily lost, it's a reality,

3 but I don't know whether it belongs as an additional

4 regulatory requirement in NIGC.

5 MR. MORGAN: That's the reason I think

6 you see the regulation itself is very broad, very vague,

7 until we delve into a little bit deeper on the guidance.

8 But as far as the working group, there were several

9 folks leery of going far into this area. And the hard

10 thing to do in that area is to disagree it's not a good

11 idea, because almost everybody universally says yes, if

12 you're going to have a casino operation that authorizes

13 player tracking, you need to do this stuff.

14 And sometimes we get back to, well, it's

15 a good idea for NIGC to do training and technical

16 assistance, yes, that is a best practice in a casino

17 operation. But in the Class II world, their

18 jurisdiction is limited to certain activities and does

19 this activity fall within their authority. It's a

20 dilemma sometimes.

21 MR. McGHEE: It was previously published

22 as the --

23 MR. MORGAN: It said computerized under

24 the gaming machine in Class III and then in card games.

25 I think if you listen to the policy

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1 discussions over the number of years at NIGC, there is

2 lots of people that bring up points of, well, the NIGC

3 does that, but whether they actually have the authority

4 or not is questionable. Nobody has challenged them yet.

5 And from the decision you saw when someone did try to

6 challenge their authority on Class III MICS on the

7 enforceability, the court did find no, under IGRA, you

8 do not have that authority.

9 And you get back to in Class III,

10 everybody agrees you should have Minimum Control

11 Standards for Class III, just what is the proper party

12 to put those control standards in and enforce those

13 standards.

14 MR. WILSON: Well, that is an interesting

15 point, because player tracking isn't a game, right? I

16 mean, it exists as a business tool. And the risk is

17 with the business, it's not really an integrity of

18 gaming issue as much as it's --

19 MR. CALLAGHAN: Even less so than

20 promotions.

21 MR. WILSON: So that does bring up an

22 interesting point as to whether this is even appropriate

23 being here.

24 MR. McGHEE: The same argument comes up

25 with comps.

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1 MR. WILSON: I was going to say, I think

2 that's true.

3 MR. CULLOO: Really one of the things,

4 too, on everyone's financial statements, I'm sure they

5 have a point liability account, because they have to

6 know what's there. I think operations is fully capable

7 of analyzing what's going on in their own facility when

8 it comes to things like adjustment of points. And for

9 instance, in ours, a club attendant can't make that

10 adjustment by themselves, they have to have a supervisor

11 come over. And we have a paper log they fill out, too.

12 Those are turned in and reviewed for abuse.

13 So I tend to think this is a subject,

14 too, that may best be left out.

15 MR. MORGAN: The lawyer in me says you

16 don't have the approval. The regulator in me says it's

17 a good idea, at Chickasaw Nation it's a good idea to

18 have controls around it because there is a risk.

19 MR. WILSON: We have controls around it,

20 but we have a compact that requires it, but we still

21 have controls around it. But I do think that I just had

22 a vision from the tribe and I'm saying now that I think

23 that --

24 MR. CALLAGHAN: He's channeling.

25 MR. WILSON: Yeah, I'm channeling with

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1 the chairman. And I believe that our position on player

2 tracking and comps and promotions will be the same, that

3 those are not areas that -- we agree they need to be

4 controlled and there are risks there, but they are not

5 areas that we believe NIGC has the authority to

6 regulate.

7 MR. FISHER: All right, then. So what

8 does that mean for us?

9 MR. McGHEE: I think that begs the same

10 question that you asked about promotions. There seems

11 to be a point to ask do people think player tracking

12 should be included in the regs, because you seem to be

13 running into the same problems as you did with

14 promotions.

15 MR. WILSON: I think we have to ask the

16 same question about this as we did about promotions.

17 MR. McGHEE: He's channeling me.

18 MR. WILSON: Unfortunately, I didn't hear

19 you down here, Dan.

20 MR. FISHER: He just said the same thing

21 you just said.

22 That's interesting. We went from how do

23 we strengthen this guidance to how do we eliminate the

24 provision.

25 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I'm not

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1 going to discuss authorities, because it opens a whole

2 other can of worms. But we need to be realistic in our

3 expectations of what this committee will produce, if

4 it's something that we can use. I'm not going to pass

5 judgment on anything that you're producing or

6 recommendations that you're making, but it's always

7 important to realize when we get our recommendations

8 how -- are we going to be able to implement them. So

9 TMI.

10 MR. McGHEE: And the question is, so if

11 we recommend that you take it out and you don't, then we

12 have no comment or anything on, if you decide to keep it

13 in, here is what we want.

14 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: That's a

15 good point.

16 MR. McGHEE: If we decide not to take the

17 advice on the promotions and put it in, we really gave

18 no recommendations to where you decided, if you keep it

19 in, what we want. Same with player tracking. So I hate

20 to ignore the whole thing in case you don't take our

21 advise.

22 MS. LASH: And that's true, but we really

23 do have to watch closely when we have intermingled

24 systems in Class II and Class III, the loss of

25 jurisdiction. I mean, this is NIGC's jurisdiction, it's

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1 Class II. With promotions, once you're getting money

2 for Class III games, you're using that in promotions,

3 that doesn't fit within this box. And once this money

4 is co-mingled with Class III money, there is a loss of

5 jurisdiction.

6 So we're dealing with that kind of same

7 issue here when you have these player tracking systems

8 that are Class II and Class III. I mean, there is a

9 blurred line there.

10 MR. CULLOO: Well, in Washington state,

11 the way you get away from the state having any

12 jurisdiction is it's a one-way flow of information from

13 the server. You capture the information but nothing

14 goes back to the Class III server. So therefore, they

15 have no control over it. There is a firewall that

16 prevents the information from going back the other way.

17 MR. McGHEE: To me, the way it's written

18 is you would have control over a Class II player

19 tracking system if you decide to let Class II machines

20 operate with it. And then you have the authority to

21 look at it, whether Class III is involved in it or not,

22 because you allowed Class II to operate with it.

23 MR. FISHER: All right. So do we want to

24 test this? Do you want to adjourn for the day and

25 consider it overnight, or how would you like to proceed?

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1 MR. CALLAGHAN: Is there an opportunity

2 for the NIGC to propose soft regulations?

3 MR. FISHER: It's getting late.

4 (Simultaneous discussion.)

5 MR. CALLAGHAN: Maybe what I'm saying is

6 more of a bold -- I mean, I agree that -- again, I go

7 back to the kinder, gentler, the new and improved NIGC.

8 These are areas where you know that there is challenges

9 out there, and it would be -- I think it would be a good

10 thing if you provided some guidance on these things. I

11 just don't see -- I don't see any land grab by the NIGC.

12 And I don't mean that in a negative way, just added

13 territory for you, annexing.

14 I think that could damage our entire work

15 here. I think what we've done, particularly with bingo,

16 at least our recommendations with bingo, would be the

17 hardest part of our work. And I think adding certain

18 things like this to what we're doing could destroy

19 everything we're doing here right now, because we're

20 throwing out the baby with the bath water. And I would

21 rather make some adjustments, how unpalatable they maybe

22 to the NIGC. But I just think that it would be more

23 beneficial to the overall global work, incrementalism,

24 something maybe you could take a look at in the future.

25 But under the framework of what we're doing, not so

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1 much.

2 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: It's

3 helpful to have discussion. And you know, as kind of

4 what Daniel is talking about, whether or not it's in

5 your recommendations, we are taking in everything you're

6 saying here. It is all -- we'll all get a transcript

7 and it will be reviewed.

8 But you know, we should be realistic. We

9 have realistic expectations of what we can actually do.

10 I'm not trying to sway you away from the representation

11 that you make.

12 MR. WILSON: For clarification, when you

13 say "realistic," is that saying that like if I'm on the

14 record saying that I don't think that this is an area

15 that NIGC can regulate that that's unrealistic?

16 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: No, I'm

17 not saying that.

18 MR. WILSON: I'm trying to understand,

19 then, what is unrealistic about the conversation that

20 we've been having?

21 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Well, I

22 mean, like I said, I don't want to get into authorities

23 here or not or removing or adding entire sections, you

24 know. Some things we just may not be able to do. We do

25 have a process here, and we do need to go and consult

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1 with tribes, you know. So it just would be helpful.

2 I mean, kind of just tagging back to what

3 Dan had said, but in the event that we can't do what you

4 recommend, there are some other options there to have,

5 you know, different options. We talked about that

6 yesterday morning a little bit, that, you know, we want

7 to address this issue, we want to get something out

8 there that's going to be, you know, workable for a very

9 diverse industry, how we do need to have realistic

10 expectations of what we actually can do.

11 So there is always the, you know, we want

12 everything, the best-case scenario, whether it be from

13 the government's perspective or the tribal government's

14 perspective, but what actually can we get done.

15 MR. CALLAGHAN: Daniel, if I'm reading

16 this correctly, on the left side, the proposed MICS,

17 that's the NIGC side, and then on the right side is the

18 TGWG. So the way I read that is there is no proposed

19 MICS from the NIGC. They're just saying that we don't

20 agree with TGWG's suggested MICS.

21 MR. FISHER: It's because it got moved

22 out of the different sections.

23 Go ahead, Robin.

24 MS. LASH: I have a comment just for the

25 record with regard to our discussion we're having. A

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1 tribe can invest its TGRA with authority by amending its

2 gaming ordinance which in Class II would also invest

3 NIGC with authority. However, this is a matter of

4 tribal sovereignty. If the tribe does not choose to

5 expand its gaming ordinance to include player tracking,

6 which is not Class II, the TGRA and NIGC -- both the

7 TGRA and the NIGC lack jurisdiction under IGRA and

8 gaming ordinance.

9 MR. WILSON: What is that that you're

10 quoting?

11 MS. LASH: It's discussing when we were

12 talking about the jurisdictional issues and what NIGC

13 has jurisdiction over. And we're talking about that

14 like you did with promotions and player tracking.

15 MR. WILSON: I understand, but I guess

16 just --

17 MS. LASH: This is from my legal counsel.

18 MR. WILSON: Okay. And my issue isn't

19 that, my issue is is that citing a precedence or a case

20 that has already decided that player tracking is not

21 part of it? That's my question.

22 MR. McGHEE: He thought you were reading

23 something official.

24 MS. LASH: No. It is official, but it's

25 not --

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1 MR. McGHEE: Recently created somewhere,

2 in print or whatever you want to call it.

3 MS. LASH: No, it's not a case.

4 MR. WILSON: It's not?

5 MS. LASH: No.

6 MR. WILSON: So that's just an opinion?

7 MS. LASH: Yes, a legal opinion.

8 MR. McGHEE: I think we need to consider

9 that if you throw something out, do you still want to

10 have comment on what's left.

11 MR. FISHER: And that's a choice that the

12 group has to make about whether you have a plan B or, in

13 essence, you have a contingency plan for if you

14 recommend something and that recommendation is not

15 approved, then your second recommendation would be do

16 this. You have a choice to make about whether you do

17 that or whether you simply make a strong recommendation

18 that says do this.

19 So we're back to what do you -- do you

20 have a comment to make? Because I want to check to see

21 what you want to do right now.

22 MR. MORGAN: Just a little bit, because I

23 still see this conversation similar to promotions. We

24 had consensus on as far as the regulation and guidance,

25 but we were pretty evenly split, though, on how to -- in

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1 my words, you know, while we agreed that it may have

2 been good a good idea, we had very strong disagreement

3 on a vehicle to get it there, of how it arrives.

4 And I was just going to, probably like

5 you, check to see if we still had that disagreement on

6 the vehicle of how it arrives. Because we had some

7 people that said yes, good idea, bulletin, and we had

8 other people that said no, because a bulletin rises to a

9 certain level and we don't want to get there.

10 We were pretty evenly split on the last

11 subject. Now, whether that holds true for this subject

12 or not, that's what I would like to see.

13 MR. FISHER: So that would mean testing

14 both, whether to delete this provision or not recommend

15 this provision and to create a bulletin. Is that what

16 you're saying?

17 MR. MORGAN: I'm not saying we have to

18 get there today, right now. I said me looking, I said

19 that's where I see us going.

20 MR. FISHER: All right. John?

21 MR. MAGEE: For me, it comes back down to

22 the promotional gaming issue, that I probably would have

23 voted the same way I did last time, I would probably

24 stand aside. Because for me, the promotional and these

25 type of items we're talking about here, it is

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1 problematic and there is a lot of abuse. And probably

2 in multiple facilities, and in our facilities, it costs

3 us several thousand dollars, hundreds of thousands of

4 dollars. And I get that. So it's a property issue, and

5 you deal with the regs and you learn from those

6 mistakes.

7 I guess what I'm having a little problem

8 with is that, you know, we were brought here to review

9 the Tribal Gaming Working Group's recommendation to NIGC

10 for adoption, and yet we've got several members from

11 that work group sitting at this committee telling us,

12 well, we need to take that out of the document because

13 that's not what we wanted.

14 So just -- I'm just working with, you

15 know, trying to pull this out myself in my head, trying

16 to figure out, okay, this is the document you presented,

17 but yet this is the section you don't want in there.

18 So it's a little confusing from that

19 standpoint. And I guess that -- and I get what Matthew

20 said, you know, there was kind of a consensus and it's

21 how we brought it together.

22 MS. LASH: There was a house divided in

23 the working group, too.

24 MR. MAGEE: If we go back around the

25 table again, because I don't want to hold this up, and I

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1 get it is for individual properties to adopt and

2 mitigate the problems as they see fit. And we have.

3 You know, we've done that and I'm sure other properties

4 have, too. And maybe it's not fair to try to create a

5 broad statute that applies to each property, because

6 each property is set up differently. I get that

7 argument, too.

8 The only problem I have is

9 philosophically, the work group put together a document

10 for presentation, but yet members of the work group are

11 here saying no, we don't want that.

12 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Can I

13 respond?

14 Our intent was not to bring you here to

15 just whole cloth bless what the Tribal Gaming Working

16 Group has done. We would hope that you would all take a

17 good close look at it. As we're coming up with ideas,

18 and some of you have done a really good job at finding

19 your own questions in here, areas that don't make sense

20 to you and things that could be clarified, that's

21 really, really helpful to the overall process. And I

22 don't want to answer for the Tribal Gaming Working

23 Group, but they made it pretty clear earlier that there

24 was not a lot of consensus. And actually things that I

25 heard as they went through the process, part of it was a

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1 pretty drug-out, tough fight. Not necessarily a fight.

2 Not a good choice of words.

3 MS. HAMEL: It was a fight.

4 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: It was a

5 tough process. And the Commission, we really respect

6 that and appreciate all the hard work and dedication and

7 the resources that went into that. And that's why, you

8 know, we felt that when Poarch Creek submitted it to us,

9 it was important to look at.

10 MR. MAGEE: Well, the only follow-up

11 comment I would say is that we'll probably get some flak

12 from those who were adamant about certain sections that

13 we decided to take out for whatever reason.

14 MR. McGHEE: It comes down to, you know,

15 yes, to me it's a good idea and it makes sense to be in

16 place, but kind of like what we were talking about here

17 is more of a big, broader principle issue or legal issue

18 of authority and blah-blah-blah, not whether it's a good

19 idea.

20 And I don't know if -- I would have to

21 talk to my legal people to say, hey, should we be

22 supporting whether we have the authority to do that?

23 Because I'm not equipped to do that and they're not

24 here, to make such a big comment like it shouldn't be in

25 here, because I don't think you have the authority,

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1 because I don't have the knowledge. I have to look at

2 it to have an opinion from my tribe on that. You know

3 what I mean?

4 So I would just assume it would be

5 status quo until I had that, because that's a bigger

6 statement you make when you're starting to talk about my

7 tribe, if I'm speaking on behalf of my tribe, for me to

8 say my tribe doesn't believe you have the authority to

9 do that, when I can't do that, you know.

10 MR. FISHER: Okay, where are we? You

11 want to adjourn and consider it overnight?

12 So where we are time-wise is that we're

13 at 4:30, which is the scheduled time on our agenda for

14 public comment. So this is the invitation to anybody in

15 the audience that wishes to provide public comment

16 directly to the committee. To do so, now would be the

17 time. So does anybody wish to provide public comment?

18 No, we don't have anybody stepping

19 forward. Okay, nobody stepped forward.

20 So can you hang in there with me, folks?

21 So I think we're done for the day. So let's adjourn.

22 And when we come back in the morning, we'll pick up on

23 this question of how to deal with what is proposed in

24 543.12.

25 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Oh, one

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1 other thing. It's Rest's birthday today.

2 MR. FISHER: We can go off the record.

3 (TAC meeting recessed at 4:32 p.m.)

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1,000 379:23 414:12

10 315:25 377:8

10,000 244:9 379:24

386:4,8,23

10,001 386:18

100 244:3 315:25

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11,000 386:14

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13 214:9 288:23

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2

2 237:13 244:3,21

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2,000 379:23

20 212:7 225:9

307:6 372:14

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2008 318:3

2010 339:10 405:24

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410:22

2011 209:12 210:1

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24 314:20

25 212:7 284:1

331:25 332:1 376:1

25,000 241:16

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3

3 257:2

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30 302:20 332:7

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389:4 397:3

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4 284:1 365:14,15

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272:4 278:21

312:25 344:17

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234:23 279:14

295:19 314:6

315:20 316:20

323:6,18 347:25

385:14 400:18

402:4 429:8 432:24

absolutely 269:14

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413:15 415:9

abstain 282:11,14

282:23 288:22,24

289:16 341:24

344:4

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abstains 341:25

abuse 269:22 326:12

326:18 342:11,13

343:22,25 344:15

403:14,14,23 404:7

409:11 411:23

414:2,11 417:17

421:20 425:1

427:12 437:1

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abuses 339:6 403:12

accept 218:7

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336:21

account 227:12

241:23 253:15

254:22 361:5

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421:7,9,10 422:11

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accruing 326:13

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accurate 238:25

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accurately 360:9

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275:13

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act 385:22 386:1,3

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action 210:21 273:8

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actions 392:12

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activity 232:16,17

238:23 239:25

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249:15 267:15,15

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285:4 305:19

413:11 425:19

actual 221:25 256:3

259:1 297:11 302:6

354:13,15 368:9,13

368:19,24 369:10

370:2,20,20 371:1,1

374:20 375:14,14

375:19 377:23

384:14 405:17

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395:20

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432:23

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administrative

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308:19

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400:7 401:20 402:1

402:24 433:23

aids 380:19

[accounting - aids] Page 2

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
ain't 282:15

airport 212:3,7

all's 254:1

alleviate 257:17

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251:14 253:11,12

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413:3

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[ain't - assistance] Page 3

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
assisting 397:6

associate 214:1,3

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b

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440:22

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390:9 403:11

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390:15

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232:14 240:12

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244:15,20 253:23

355:8

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397:7

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311:25 332:17

371:12 372:16

[assisting - based] Page 4

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
375:3 376:7 400:21

408:20 412:16,17

basically 219:19

290:21 295:6 368:8

384:3 403:18

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302:10

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263:11 265:14

268:2 270:25 271:8

[based - business] Page 5

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
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302:23 303:11

309:15 314:6

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c

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349:17

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403:25

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386:3 392:21 395:8

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431:17 436:9

439:12

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426:6

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431:8

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389:19,20,22,23,23

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399:6

changed 236:10

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227:24 230:7 237:3

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385:2,5,6 424:3

changing 235:12

345:17 382:2,4

404:18

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427:25 428:17

cheat 250:9 252:7

323:21

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312:15,21 316:21

376:13

cheaters 252:8

cheating 248:1

257:7 274:11

405:11

[business - cheating] Page 6

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
check 235:22 290:8

304:3 319:15,16

321:7 368:21

383:24 399:16

402:9 409:1 435:20

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252:16

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313:18

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434:19

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434:6

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297:17 335:19

358:20,21 359:12

359:15 360:13,21

360:24 361:2

364:25,25 438:17

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230:20 231:7

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279:14 290:25

299:9 314:19

316:25 317:10

328:7 334:9 337:5

339:9 400:4 418:14

420:24 427:11

440:22

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285:11,12,21

everyone's 427:4

evident 359:22

exactly 230:5

274:14 290:5

302:11 317:6

336:17 349:21

351:9 386:7 411:18

examine 391:15

examining 390:13

example 244:8

251:9,10 310:4

351:4,10 386:14

417:23

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426:16

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414:18

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432:9 433:10

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272:14 345:11

347:1,15 350:23,24

376:8 381:18

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315:12,19,21 386:1

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345:7 348:8 409:24

explain 242:17

300:2 311:24 315:8

316:19 317:15

332:21,22,23

344:24 349:12

explained 225:14

304:20

explaining 243:11

271:7 306:10,23

311:9 322:20 342:6

372:11

explanation 223:17

307:23 319:24

385:21

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224:1 364:19,20

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320:10

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324:14

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413:17

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409:24

extent 214:13,20

278:6 334:18

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389:2

extremely 424:25

f

f 295:10

face 359:23 365:4

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437:2,2

facility 249:7 250:20

252:9 253:19 268:7

334:17 392:22

411:5 423:20 427:7

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251:11 264:21

275:20 296:1

327:10 333:11,19

339:1 340:14

353:17 401:19

409:23 416:8

failure 424:5

fair 250:19,19,24

252:7 259:24 260:2

270:22 271:4,5

274:9 307:12

329:16 347:19

418:12 438:4

fairly 250:3,4 270:9

274:13

fall 225:15,17,22

226:5,6,6 285:4

390:22 425:19

falling 342:18

falls 393:21

false 417:16

family 248:19

250:23 251:7,7,7,24

252:14,19,20

253:11,12

far 212:16 215:24

224:16 238:5,25

253:6 257:24 270:4

292:22 298:4

315:21 336:25

345:17 348:10

351:24 404:25

409:6 413:16

424:11,13 425:8,9

435:24

farther 344:25

fashion 291:10,14

fault 414:19

favor 269:14

fed 319:2

federal 249:5 254:3

254:9 255:3,4 258:6

261:21 262:7 263:6

263:22 267:17,25

269:12 273:6,10

274:19,20,22

275:10 276:2,8,22

278:22 281:13

285:14 334:16

363:16

feedback 321:21

350:9 383:12

feeding 319:1

feel 218:18,21

250:10 263:5

277:16 310:11

312:21 316:20

340:18 347:8

412:13

feeling 218:2 269:3

feels 269:4

fees 223:9

fell 388:18 424:3

felt 276:15 285:15

318:7 320:16,17

439:8

ferries 212:15

ferry 211:14 212:1,3

212:6,13

field 315:21

fight 439:1,1,3

figure 220:5,8,17

243:2 311:18

338:13 361:16

392:4 422:6 437:16

figured 236:18

fill 299:25 396:25

427:11

[establishment - fill] Page 13

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
final 318:19

finally 324:13

financial 359:19

360:7,9,24 361:7,17

362:2,5,8,12,16,23

363:13,23 364:24

364:25 427:4

financials 357:6

358:6,15,24 360:1

364:13

fincen 386:16

396:21

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356:24 406:1 426:7

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438:18

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397:18

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294:1,9,13 296:20

296:22 297:11,19

301:9 317:10

346:17 385:20

389:16 401:3 413:9

416:22

fisher 210:5,17,23

211:18,23 213:1,12

213:16,24 214:2,5,7

214:10 215:7,11,14

216:2,17 217:3

221:10 222:25

225:19,23 227:23

229:19,23 230:6,25

231:17,23 233:16

235:11 236:2,5,18

236:24 237:15,20

238:11 239:15

240:20 242:21

243:19,22,25 245:1

245:4,13 246:1,9,17

247:8 251:22

253:25 261:8

263:20 264:3,13

265:18,23 266:23

268:16 270:16

271:20 273:20

274:25 276:10

277:24 279:1,21

280:1 281:4,8,15,20

281:24 282:1,5,14

282:17 283:19,22

284:11,23 285:7

286:8,12,17,21

287:8,13,18,25

288:5,16 289:1,9

291:1,21 292:5,10

293:11,18 294:12

295:11,15,21

297:20 298:6

299:17 304:22

305:14,22,25

306:13,17 308:10

308:16,22,25

311:21 312:17

314:1,23 319:13

321:6 326:8 330:8

330:11 335:4,20

336:5,9,14,16,19

338:5 339:21 340:1

340:24 341:10,15

341:21 343:21,24

344:13 346:9 349:1

350:9,16 351:2

352:25 353:6

354:14,18 355:15

355:19,23 356:1,8

356:18,25 357:11

358:4,14 360:14

364:17 365:8,13,19

365:23 366:2,6,9,23

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369:19 371:21

372:18,20 373:4

375:17 376:19

378:4,22 380:8

381:3,7,15,25 382:4

382:8,11,14 383:6

383:11,15,23

384:11,15,23 385:4

385:11 387:3,11,16

389:11,14,19 390:4

390:18,25 391:3,12

391:16,21 392:4

393:16 395:12

397:23 398:4,6,13

398:16,19 399:12

399:15,20,23,25

400:6 401:23 402:3

402:17,23 404:16

406:5,10,20 407:9

407:14,18 408:2

410:16 412:4,15,20

413:24 417:1,4,8

418:18 419:15,22

420:23 421:6,16

422:24 428:7,20

430:23 431:3

433:21 435:11

436:13,20 440:10

441:2

fit 242:4,10 430:3

438:2

fits 326:24

five 236:2 272:16

289:12 297:25

306:22 308:10,11

344:24 398:1,4

402:8

fix 230:19,25 242:1

289:21

fixed 235:11

fixes 230:23

flak 439:11

flare 324:1 334:8,9

372:13

flares 299:10 371:24

flesh 254:25 409:14

flexibility 263:13

323:2

flip 394:12

flipping 214:19

floating 305:12

374:19

floor 247:23 250:11

274:3 304:13 305:3

307:7,15 309:7,13

310:14 312:5,6

318:12 322:5

326:25 327:2,21,22

328:7,11,12,16

334:3 341:3 342:20

342:23 343:7

373:15,19 374:11

376:10 379:10,11

379:20 396:7 397:9

397:10

flow 362:4,23

430:12

fluctuates 221:24

fluctuating 222:5

fluctuation 374:6

376:13

fluctuations 373:17

377:6,17 421:9

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focus 217:7 310:24

414:1,14

focusing 363:1,3

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285:12 293:24

338:5 339:17

398:21 425:9

440:20

follow 211:3 246:19

260:21 262:13

263:16 272:16

284:4 286:18

316:14 318:16

386:15 389:10

400:5 420:17,19

439:10

followed 313:19

following 249:16

264:9 357:13

[final - following] Page 14

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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follows 272:15

food 358:11

foot 292:2

force 290:16

foresee 378:16

forgery 257:8

326:17

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218:10 249:23

269:22 284:20

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403:13,23

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307:19

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283:8,9 292:23

321:13 440:19,19

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324:10 352:15

four 221:22 289:12

296:23 297:15,20

308:11 332:9

357:13 367:1,15

388:4

frame 211:5 236:7

243:13 246:14

300:12

framework 431:25

fraud 257:8 260:24

265:15 271:4 274:5

300:24 303:21,23

304:15 314:7

326:11,17 361:13

362:20 363:2 372:9

411:22 417:17

frauding 274:11

fraudulent 323:21

free 310:17 404:14

404:17

frequent 269:22

frequently 218:5

360:23

friday 212:9,10

friends 339:3

front 398:22

full 278:12 335:14

fully 213:9 370:7

371:16,20 378:7,9

427:6

fun 423:22

function 345:1

347:9 363:12,13

391:13,18 392:24

393:15,21,25

394:16,17

functionalities

397:19

functionality 393:14

functions 373:24

390:10,20 392:22

393:18,20 394:9,11

394:11,24 396:5

404:1

fund 222:20 247:17

fundamental 218:24

227:20 275:9

fundamentally

275:1

funded 225:13,16

226:2,3,4,5 229:11

229:12

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219:12,22 220:24

225:1,3,6 247:16

249:2 250:11

386:14 397:8

funny 320:6

further 231:25

254:14 304:21

320:3 345:16

future 395:15

418:25 431:24

fyi 211:13

g

g 214:20,22 225:18

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365:12,13,14,15,19

365:20,20 366:8,10

367:11 382:10,13

405:25 406:9,24

gaap 343:11 358:18

358:24 359:4,13,22

360:3,12,18 361:9

362:13,15

gamblers 252:10

game 223:20,21,21

224:17,19 232:10

234:6 240:23

249:18 250:22

270:6 274:13

309:18,18,19

310:21,22 312:4,6

312:12,23 313:1,1,2

313:4,11,14,23

314:5 315:16

316:21 322:15,17

323:9,17,18,25

324:9 325:16,21

326:12 327:14,15

327:16,17 329:13

329:16,18 330:7,20

330:25 331:9,20

332:4,9 334:3,4,5

334:13 335:9,23

338:10 352:22,23

353:21 354:10

368:17 370:7,15

371:25 373:19

374:8 375:5,19,23

376:14 378:9,13,15

378:16 379:17,20

379:24 399:22

416:13 426:15

games 216:1 218:25

219:6,17 221:3

223:13,24 224:2,5,6

224:9,12 230:13,16

232:5 239:3 240:25

244:24 246:5,22

250:3,7 264:15

303:19 312:3 332:7

332:8 338:20 356:3

370:9,10 371:16

373:9 375:2,12,25

376:3,22 377:1

378:7 379:10

381:18 384:8 403:3

403:6 407:6,12,13

407:18 414:24

416:21 425:24

430:2

gaming 223:12,14

223:23 225:15

226:20,21,23,24

238:2,2 240:9,18,25

241:1,3,4,8,10

247:12,14,17 248:2

248:22 249:2,6,11

249:13,14,15,21,23

250:1,3,11,11,12,12

254:10 255:3 258:5

258:25 259:4

260:23 262:10,11

262:12 263:10

264:16,20 267:9,10

267:15,20 268:7

270:2 271:14,15,22

271:23,25 272:2,25

273:11,12,12,24

274:1,2,3,3 276:4,4

276:5 280:5,6,8,11

280:25 281:2,3

284:3,4,6 285:1,1,4

285:16 287:2,16

[following - gaming] Page 15

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
289:6 291:4,6

293:19 301:12

302:9 303:1 310:8

312:7,13 317:23

330:5 334:17

343:20 349:11

361:20 387:10,18

387:20 392:12,22

394:2,10,21 396:7,9

402:21 403:1,5,11

403:15,20 423:19

424:19,19,20

425:24 426:18

434:2,5,8 436:22

437:9 438:15,22

garvin 212:22 342:1

343:23 401:7

general 220:15

224:23,25 230:3,9

294:15 295:14

296:4 304:25

312:15 315:19

331:23 342:23

345:4,14 346:6,12

346:13 347:2,8

357:5 358:8 365:24

365:24 366:13

399:2 405:2

generally 221:12

225:5,7 254:9

257:20 274:1 276:6

298:14 313:21

345:19 363:14

398:17

generate 306:9

generated 268:10

363:20

generic 216:12

gentler 431:7

getting 230:24

264:22 275:25

298:18 318:10

330:13 332:11

333:4,14 336:6

360:8 377:25

383:11 411:7 423:8

423:21,22 424:17

430:1 431:3

gist 340:8

give 212:3 241:25

255:20 257:9,10

263:13,24 272:19

291:24 292:2 312:7

319:24 352:22

387:7 402:22,23

406:10 418:5

giveaway 215:23

225:12 247:23

giveaways 214:21

219:4,8,12,15 221:2

221:5 224:22 229:6

229:14 235:9

237:18

given 261:7 267:17

332:21 335:12

361:10

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348:24

giving 253:9 339:3

418:10

global 431:23

go 212:19 216:2

218:3 219:3 223:3

223:23 225:1

232:18 235:12

236:3 240:3,12

244:5,6,18 246:5,11

246:13,16,18 247:8

247:9 250:16 254:4

254:25 258:6

260:22 264:18

266:13 267:25

272:7,24 273:20

274:25 278:13

279:9,24 283:12

284:11 287:22

290:14 291:1 296:8

297:10 298:20

300:25 303:8 305:6

312:5 321:14 328:5

331:11 334:6

344:12 352:16

368:3 374:18

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379:24 381:21

385:18 390:6 400:8

400:12,22 401:8,22

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410:13 412:11,20

412:21 413:7,16

420:23 424:12

431:6 432:25

433:23 437:24

441:2

goes 221:19,20,25

228:23 233:2

241:24 244:4 272:3

272:9 308:14

317:20 335:22

404:12 430:14

going 210:8,17,18

211:23 212:11,24

217:8 218:4 219:1

219:14 221:1,13

222:4 224:8 225:10

227:7,8 228:7,11,19

228:24 231:5,8

232:4,11,22 233:1

234:24 235:13,18

236:19 240:1,3,14

241:19 242:19

244:5,6,10,11,13,15

246:17,18 248:10

248:11,17 250:7,8

251:14 253:21

254:3 257:24

258:19,19 259:20

260:7,8,10,12,13,17

260:17 264:18

266:3,8,9 267:7,11

269:11 270:21

271:11,12,15,17

273:7 274:15

278:12,14 279:23

280:11,18 281:2,8

283:15 287:14

291:14,17 294:24

295:17 299:18

300:23 301:13

303:7,11,17 304:3

310:12 313:14,15

313:15 314:5,5

315:24 317:2,9

318:25 319:1,15

320:1 322:7 324:2,4

324:21 326:9 327:5

328:3,21,23 329:21

331:5,11 335:9

338:5,23 340:4,7,16

342:8 344:7 352:9

360:10,20 361:16

363:6 366:19

368:18,20 370:10

372:12,15,16 376:1

376:4 378:15 379:3

396:11 397:18

402:23 409:7

415:22 416:12

417:2 420:1 422:4,4

422:18 425:9,12

427:1,7 429:1,4,8

430:16 433:8 436:4

436:19

good 210:5 214:5

218:14 226:12

227:25 229:2 233:8

233:9,14 237:6

240:24 243:16

245:25 255:20

272:3,11 277:9

278:20 284:17

295:23 305:7 325:1

327:19 328:3

339:17,18,20

340:11,13,14

342:21,24 345:11

355:2,4 376:18

382:19 397:22

423:8,9,10 425:10

[gaming - good] Page 16

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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425:15 427:17,17

429:15 431:9 436:2

436:2,7 438:17,18

439:2,15,18

gotten 210:15

336:25 340:8

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government 259:5,5

259:11,14 275:10

285:15

government's

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granted 302:24

great 237:6 255:20

400:25

greater 413:13

425:1

group 230:16,20

239:17 248:24,25

268:5 271:23

278:11,12,17 279:2

283:10 284:8,25

285:13 291:12

292:17 306:15,15

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335:14 340:7,20

342:25 349:12

372:6 387:10,19

399:10 402:22

403:2 412:10 417:5

423:5 424:4 425:8

435:12 437:11,23

438:9,10,16,23

group's 437:9

grouped 227:17

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guarantee 228:19

241:18

guess 210:16 220:4

220:17 245:7 256:9

275:25 281:5

282:12 291:16

297:5 301:9 308:10

310:19 317:25

328:18 331:14

335:21 339:8 342:2

349:2 351:23

356:20 372:20

390:20 392:2

393:10 407:22

408:17 411:25

421:15 434:15

437:7,19

guessing 245:9

318:2 400:11

guest 215:10 276:12

307:12 323:21

guests 270:19 271:4

271:8 276:16

307:13 313:24

guidance 214:15

215:1,3,9,17 216:23

219:9 220:11,14,16

220:19 223:5,6

224:24,24 227:4,11

227:24 229:8 230:2

230:7,8,21 232:1,7

232:22 233:3,4,11

233:18 235:15,18

236:7 238:17,20

242:16 243:4,11,20

244:2 247:6 248:20

254:11,12 258:10

258:16,18 260:25

261:1 269:24

272:13 277:9 290:8

290:13,18,19,21,24

291:17 294:6,18,25

295:3,4,5,5,7,8

296:1,8,12,19,25

297:16,25 298:3,8

300:21 301:3,6,8

304:17,20,22,23

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316:13 319:11

321:19 325:4,8

332:20 336:12

337:3 338:12

339:22,23 341:14

342:3 344:12,16,18

344:23 345:17

346:6,9 349:5,8,17

350:7,21,22 351:15

355:20,24 356:6

357:3 360:15

361:20 362:24

365:17 366:14,15

366:17 367:7,9,10

372:21,24 376:24

378:24 381:19

382:5,8,21,23,24

383:2,3,20,21

388:23 389:8

397:24 398:20

400:14,20,23

402:11 405:8,16,18

407:24 408:1,3,8,12

408:12,21 409:15

409:22 410:5,7,7,14

410:19,21,25

411:16,17,21 412:2

412:9,12,19,22

413:10,12 414:9

415:20 416:2

418:10,13,16 419:1

419:2 420:25

421:13,22 422:1,4

423:3,13 424:10

425:7 428:23

431:10 435:24

guidelines 289:24

guy 422:23

guys 272:11,19

273:6 277:17 401:7

424:5,18

h

h 223:5 384:6

hackers 422:2

hair 264:25

half 212:12 316:3

369:13

halfway 298:19

349:22

hall 209:11

hamel 216:3,14

223:4 234:8 238:12

238:19 241:12

243:21 245:23

247:16 285:8

286:20 298:8

299:14 302:3 322:1

322:11 323:20

336:11 351:3 352:2

353:7,12,17 354:10

355:6,8,14,17,22

356:6 366:1,21

367:8 368:22 369:8

369:16,18,25

370:12,24 371:10

371:12 372:24

373:25 377:20

378:18 380:3,7,23

382:1,5,13,16

386:18,22 399:9

402:25 407:6,25

408:6 413:25 414:6

414:22 415:3,8,13

415:19 416:6,17

439:3

hand 213:14 221:23

223:9 237:5 245:6

246:4 280:2 281:17

282:6,22,24 286:23

288:21,22 289:7,15

289:17 341:18,20

341:22,24 344:1,3,4

366:18 382:17

385:6 399:7

handle 247:21

277:17 280:10

321:5 381:9

handled 312:1

321:16 351:8,24

352:2

[good - handled] Page 17

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handles 240:6

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hands 221:21 282:7

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happen 251:12,15

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happened 304:7

331:19 350:2

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happening 247:22

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291:13 317:16

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380:23 437:15

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229:24,24 230:1

231:12,18 232:20

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229:19 235:17

262:23 286:9

311:22 319:14

369:19 371:15

372:6 386:20 391:3

391:16 428:18

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438:25

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350:11 373:4

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held 250:10,11

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362:20

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267:6 293:1,2,5

315:13 365:3 401:5

432:3 433:1 438:21

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274:23 316:20

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391:23 415:24

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299:10,23,24

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329:15,19 375:7,21

375:23 388:14,16

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290:11 385:25

386:20,23 387:4

388:21 389:6,12,15

390:3,7,24 391:5,9

391:14,20 392:2,6

392:10,17 393:20

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hold 250:4 283:10

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302:10 306:19

319:7 331:25 334:4

336:6 340:7 351:21

354:5,13 368:9,12

368:13,20 371:10

371:13 374:20,22

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[iii - inventory] Page 19

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kansas 402:2

kathi 216:2 220:5

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284:23 285:7

321:25 332:4 351:2

353:6 367:23

374:16 376:21

381:25 386:21

402:24 413:24

416:4 417:12

keep 254:3 262:18

266:19 278:12

283:24 295:7

299:22 300:18

302:7 304:15

311:12 313:12

319:2 323:23

324:25 348:14

365:3 429:12,18

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keno 374:19 375:1

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key 390:11,17 391:2

391:6,10 392:1,9

393:12,15 394:20

396:3,4,12 397:20

keys 418:22

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kill 271:8

kind 210:21 214:18

217:6 222:9,13,23

225:4 227:17

235:17 236:18

245:14 248:4

251:25 252:1 254:1

258:13 262:24

273:22 277:3,15

279:5 287:22

290:15 291:5,19

296:4 300:3 305:12

305:19 307:18

309:8 311:24

317:11,20 318:13

319:17,20 320:10

321:22 326:10

343:1 345:8,16

346:6 347:8 348:2

348:24 364:15,18

365:23 379:15

385:20 386:12

389:9 391:24

408:18,18,25

413:25 419:1

422:17 423:13

424:7 430:6 432:3

433:2 437:20

439:16

kinder 431:7

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kiosk 395:20

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know 210:14 211:19

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216:24 218:18

223:8 227:22

231:13,15 232:14

233:24 234:14

235:4 236:5 239:20

239:23 240:2

241:14 243:2

247:19 248:17

249:20,22,24,24

252:3 253:21 254:5

254:21,24 255:14

256:22 257:14,20

260:18,21 261:9,15

262:16,22 265:12

[inventory - know] Page 20

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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[know - lining] Page 21

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312:17 366:21,23

367:24 368:1

382:12 424:21

437:19

matthew's 234:24

274:14

max 322:25

maximum 379:24

mcghee 211:13

212:2,16,21,24

213:8,11 217:1

219:16 222:21

229:15 230:12

231:21,24 232:19

237:21 238:5,16

239:6 240:17,21

241:11,25 242:13

243:7,18,23 244:21

244:23 245:2,3,11

246:13 247:19

249:19 250:25

251:9,13,20 252:2

253:5 256:17,25

257:16 260:3

265:20,24 270:3

271:14 273:9

279:11 280:21

281:18,22 283:3,6

283:15,21 284:21

286:3,5 287:4,7

288:8,11,25 290:4

292:8 293:6 294:18

295:2 296:7,24

297:6,10,21,24

299:20 300:20

301:18,24 302:5

303:5,24 304:11,24

305:8,18,23 306:1

306:16 307:13,21

308:6,9,12,18,24

309:5,19 310:16

311:5,17 314:13

315:2,18 316:24

320:12,18 322:6,14

322:19 323:5 324:7

324:17,24 325:4

326:22 328:2,20

329:17 330:2,9

331:8 332:15,25

334:20 335:2,24

336:15 339:25

340:2,14,25 341:7

342:17 343:9,13,16

345:18 346:12

348:16 349:18

353:3 354:25

356:23 357:22

358:1 367:23

369:17,21 374:14

380:24 381:2

382:20 383:8,14,19

391:22 393:6 395:6

396:2,10 397:17

404:14,17 405:5,22

408:11 409:4

410:13 411:12,15

412:8 413:2,16,21

418:12,21 419:6,13

419:16,20 420:17

421:1,5 422:9,15,22

423:2,17 424:14

425:21 426:24

428:9,17 429:10,16

430:17 434:22

435:1,8 439:14

mean 212:2 213:2

216:1 218:8,23,24

219:16 221:3 226:1

228:2 231:13

238:24 239:12

240:15,24 249:21

249:22 253:6 255:8

256:22 260:19,21

261:17 262:18

266:6,18 269:20

275:5 278:24

280:14 283:3,9

284:9 287:14

290:11 295:23

298:15 300:23

301:6,14 304:1

305:18 315:21

316:8,10 317:16

323:14 326:10,22

327:1 328:23 329:2

331:17 339:13

343:2 347:1 348:4

348:10 350:1,2

352:8,21 353:24

357:4,24 358:18

360:14,16 361:22

362:17 372:6

373:16,20 374:12

376:5 377:22

379:13,15 387:9

388:23 390:8,11,14

391:23 401:1

409:12,21 413:9

416:7 422:5 426:16

428:8 429:25 430:8

431:6,12 432:22

433:2 436:13 440:3

meaning 239:7

253:11 256:1

315:19,23 327:8

348:25 410:8

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means 223:23

226:13,14 240:19

245:7 255:8 263:2,2

289:1 296:10 333:2

363:10 369:23

meant 276:14

323:20,21

measure 374:18

meat 413:7

mechanics 227:14

mechanism 275:13

311:1,2,8 333:16

335:2 361:5 362:22

meet 227:10,13

269:7,7 312:4 390:9

meeting 209:4

210:18,20 247:20

320:9 337:9 389:16

392:14 400:10,19

402:7 441:3

meetings 211:6

meets 266:9 395:24

member 248:19

250:21,23 251:7

252:19

member's 251:7

members 251:25

252:10,11,14,14,22

338:25 339:5

437:10 438:10

mention 239:2

261:15 281:22

301:19 320:7

mentioned 216:3

244:16 248:7

301:19 320:8

321:20 332:4

347:21

mentions 290:23

mere 333:8,11

merely 255:21 361:3

merit 403:3

mess 233:18,19

243:5

messing 234:2

met 260:18 307:1

312:8,15 315:6

330:23,24 331:21

351:4 389:18

method 310:7

319:25

methodology 316:18

mgm 403:22 404:12

404:13

mia 284:12,23 291:8

367:13

michele 291:2,21

338:15

mics 227:16,17,20

261:25 269:23,24

269:24 318:15

320:3 324:21

389:24 394:7

406:15 407:3 426:6

433:16,19,20

middle 277:3

mike 280:20 290:8

389:11 390:6 391:4

million 377:8

millions 380:1

mind 210:9 213:17

220:22 228:3 254:3

256:16 261:20

283:24 301:17

309:25 313:8,20

329:16 343:15

365:3 394:6,24

mine 246:14 340:16

mingled 430:4

minimal 409:10,12

409:13

minimally 255:4

261:3,4

minimum 239:8,11

239:22 242:8,11

249:5 254:4,9,18

298:22 302:10

307:1 312:3,8,11,14

313:5 314:3 323:16

323:17,23 325:6

332:13 336:23

370:16,21 371:2

375:21 394:4

426:10

minority 340:21

370:9

minus 318:19 319:4

324:23 325:6

332:24

minute 212:6 236:2

293:14 295:11

350:16 366:15

minutes 212:5,7

335:12 350:12

402:8,8

misappropriation

257:7 326:11,17

405:11

misconstrued 256:1

misinterpreted

266:19

missed 220:13,13

385:13 388:23

389:12

missing 220:9,21

mistaken 302:19

399:18

mistakes 437:6

mitigate 265:16

301:19,25 302:1

411:21 438:2

mitigated 228:3,14

422:10

modifications 297:2

moment 235:21

321:6

monday 239:4

money 219:14 221:1

221:13 222:6,8

225:8,13 229:5

232:10 233:1

244:10 253:9,15

254:23 267:13

268:10 270:9,12

273:13 303:16

307:14 310:15,18

395:8 425:2 430:1,3

430:4

monitors 377:10

month 248:14 328:6

357:3,5,25,25

358:10,12,19 359:1

359:7,12,14,15

360:10,13 361:2,21

361:24,25 362:1,1,4

363:5,9,11,21 364:2

364:7,8 373:8

374:22

monthly 328:10

357:3,6,13,14,19,20

357:23,24 358:3,6

358:13 359:10,18

359:21 360:21

363:19 364:10,13

364:16,24 374:21

377:15

months 374:21,23

379:14 393:2

morgan 211:20,25

213:10,14,18,22

216:22 220:4

223:16 232:4,21

233:6,15,23 234:11

235:3,24 236:16

239:16 242:6

248:23 254:1

257:18 258:16

259:3 261:3 263:7

263:23 264:18

266:24 271:21

274:19 278:14

281:7 284:13

290:23 292:15

302:22 303:20

304:3 312:18 317:7

325:3,13 348:22

366:25 367:10,15

367:19,22 381:21

382:10 387:18

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388:25 389:7

393:18,21 405:24

406:18 407:13,15

408:14 409:7 410:2

411:24 412:6 423:4

423:25 425:5,23

427:15 435:22

436:17

morning 210:5,9

212:9,10,11 402:10

409:2 433:6 440:22

move 231:2,15

245:16 279:5 283:7

283:8 292:23

295:23 310:5 344:9

350:12 366:9,20

380:12 383:23

moved 218:5,15

245:21 380:21

411:7 433:21

moving 385:12

multimedia 387:1

387:25 395:20,21

multiple 437:2

n

name 250:21 251:8

270:8

named 232:16

392:25

narrow 253:2

nation 427:17

naturally 257:24

nature 223:9,15

276:4,5 361:13

362:21 364:1

397:16

nearly 378:16

necessarily 221:6,17

226:2 227:19

244:14 262:8 263:9

285:20 304:1 310:8

312:15 313:24

324:8 328:4 329:4

361:6 365:25

372:23 414:16

439:1

necessary 227:13

297:17 345:7,11

360:18

need 210:22 211:17

227:23 228:13

235:16,25 236:13

239:4,21 242:23

245:25 248:4,16

252:3 254:25 255:2

265:5 268:9 269:4

270:16 274:23

275:10,10,12 278:1

282:10 284:18

287:8 288:13

292:14 293:12

295:25 298:21

299:1 301:11 304:5

304:20 306:15

309:1 312:11

316:14 320:21

322:7 325:7 328:24

336:9 350:12 356:3

356:10 359:5 360:2

366:14 372:21

381:19 382:1 384:2

385:8 387:6 390:25

400:22 401:22

411:24 415:18

419:2,9,23 423:15

425:13 428:3 429:2

432:25 433:9 435:8

437:12

needed 217:16

248:12,20 285:17

388:2

needs 216:20,22,23

216:24 217:12,24

224:22,23 228:21

241:12 244:18

247:7 253:15 268:8

269:20,23 273:2,2

280:13 292:17

298:3 308:20

311:21 316:19

317:16 321:17

329:7,12 333:19,23

335:1,25 336:20,21

353:1 359:10 366:1

374:3,4 393:8 410:9

413:12 421:13,17

nefarious 352:18

negative 431:12

never 219:14 302:6

303:16 310:12,23

318:12 340:17,19

340:23 350:24

352:15 353:8,10,20

354:12 381:24

388:3 418:3

new 223:11 241:12

247:12 352:22

402:21 403:7 431:7

nexus 387:8

nigc 217:13 224:8

228:2 232:8 233:7

234:7,23 235:14

237:4 247:3,11

248:25 254:12

258:5 259:3 267:11

267:18 268:12,25

269:17 272:4,15

273:3 274:15

275:19 277:20

281:21 283:24

284:1,4,16 285:5

286:14,22 288:21

289:4 291:3,25

294:1 295:13

317:21 319:7

338:17 351:19

354:4 367:3 376:25

381:11,16 384:1

385:18 394:20

398:21 400:19

402:18 411:25

413:14 419:8 423:8

423:23 424:18

425:4,15 426:1,2

428:5 431:2,7,11,22

432:15 433:17,19

434:3,6,7,12 437:9

nigc's 280:19 281:17

281:21 420:17,19

429:25

night 305:11 316:25

nimish 230:19

403:10 405:3

407:21 408:17

409:1,8,18 411:5,25

412:15

nine 356:22

nj366119 209:25

nods 235:24 245:23

380:23

non 272:2 285:4

333:25 378:12

393:5

noon 337:9

normal 396:18

397:11,14

normally 352:21

northeast 209:10

note 210:15 235:14

237:4 284:25

292:10 383:22

423:4

notebooks 246:20

notes 292:20

notice 210:12 295:2

noticed 382:22

396:20

notified 374:8

november 210:24

211:7

number 219:1,5

226:16 227:11

237:18 265:6 308:9

309:23 326:20

355:15,23 357:12

377:22 388:4

402:18 426:1

numbered 290:14

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o

o'haleck 209:24

objective 228:13

observation 217:6

observers 260:8

obviously 230:24

248:20 310:9

331:17 335:11

363:7

occasion 392:23

occur 251:11 314:8

404:7

occurred 332:14,24

364:3 410:1

occurs 240:24 312:3

october 210:24,25

odds 264:11

offer 315:16 322:2

office 291:7

official 383:20

390:11,16 391:8,10

434:23,24

officially 399:18

400:7

oftentimes 310:10

oh 215:11 372:3

384:11,22 415:6

417:10 440:25

okay 210:5,8 215:11

216:9 223:3 235:11

237:20 240:2

243:25 245:4,7

246:1 254:14

266:14 270:4 279:1

280:1 281:4 282:1,7

282:23,25 283:2

287:18,19 288:22

288:23 289:13

292:5,13 293:18

295:13 296:10,14

297:9,13 300:4

305:25 306:3

308:25 314:23

319:13 320:13

321:13 331:8

335:18 336:9,14

338:5 339:21,23

340:2 341:10 344:9

348:14 352:8,25

354:20 356:10,14

356:18 365:8

366:16,19 368:15

376:23 378:22

380:8,12 381:1

382:17,17 383:23

384:22 385:7,11,16

389:6,14 390:18,25

398:21 399:15,24

400:3 401:4 402:13

402:18,23 417:1

434:18 437:16

440:10,19

oklahoma 235:3,5

old 229:8 386:25

once 237:13,18,25

239:7,9,14 240:11

240:23 242:16

243:8,14 305:2

328:6 339:1,2

375:21 388:14,16

402:7 430:1,3

ones 274:8,10

303:13 343:7 345:6

347:14 370:10

375:23 376:10

ooo 210:3 338:3

open 214:8 275:17

353:18 363:8

386:13

opened 351:7

352:17

opening 390:13

opens 242:3 429:1

operate 239:2

240:25 430:20,22

operates 325:21,22

operating 301:15

405:13

operation 247:14

249:15 258:22

297:4 299:22

301:12 307:11

310:22 313:19

318:9,11 332:6

347:1,6 350:25

361:1 377:12,13

392:12 410:10

425:12,17

operational 244:17

254:8

operationally

253:23 256:7

operations 224:5

247:17 251:4

253:21 259:18

267:21 268:7 345:5

345:15 361:20

374:13 375:9 376:2

387:20 403:16

404:2 409:25 427:6

operator 252:15

312:5 324:5 325:19

326:13 331:23

332:10,12 333:11

334:17 378:8

operators 257:21,22

322:25 323:2 333:5

opinion 231:14

283:16,17 285:10

285:12,25 342:9

383:5 408:23 416:3

418:9 435:6,7 440:2

opinions 276:25

339:18

opportunity 339:11

372:8 431:1

oppose 341:21 342:1

344:3

opposed 212:16,22

217:14,19 256:7

266:4 311:2 331:14

392:25 416:16

opposite 287:22

optimism 402:17

option 321:2 325:19

335:10

options 233:11

236:12 433:4,5

order 211:8 227:12

358:21 362:15

376:25 387:21

399:14

ordinance 259:4,11

261:12 262:3 275:2

275:4,6 394:2,10,21

434:2,5,8

organizational

345:14,24

originally 211:8

235:7

otd 240:16

outcome 353:21

359:12

outline 422:4

outright 271:3

outside 267:11

268:11,14 277:15

285:4 348:6 423:7

overall 222:3 264:10

339:20 352:7 387:9

431:23 438:21

overly 294:5,16,24

296:1 346:14

overnight 430:25

440:11

overrides 234:7

oversees 403:25

overstepping 256:6

overview 293:22,25

385:17 402:22

owe 232:10 233:1

p

p.m. 337:10 338:2

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355:5,6 356:21,22

357:9,12 366:15

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398:1,4,14 403:10

405:1,2 412:23,24

413:1,2 421:3,6

pages 407:19,19

paid 215:10 225:1

301:21 303:4 307:5

309:13 369:22

paper 285:12 298:5

299:4,5 301:14

305:13 326:1 343:6

358:9 379:2,3

415:23 418:4

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par 377:4,22 378:1

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paragraph 268:19

346:16 409:8

pardon 369:18

parking 422:6

part 215:18 222:21

231:18 238:17

242:24 253:24

261:12 280:4

281:11 282:3 284:2

296:4 303:22

309:18,18,19 327:6

327:23 328:13

338:11 343:6,12

346:3 347:23 349:4

350:10 352:7

357:20 358:19

360:13,21 364:16

370:11 389:5

392:18 420:5

431:17 434:21

438:25

participate 251:25

255:2 313:4,8,8

particular 217:25

233:4 234:6 269:4

276:1 307:11 331:2

375:5 394:3 396:19

particularly 259:20

431:15

parts 380:16

party 397:15 426:11

pass 259:10 266:1

266:10 269:5 429:4

path 290:22

patron 216:6,8

229:11,12 250:15

250:16 353:9

387:22,24 388:19

393:14 397:10

406:19 414:11

patron's 390:13

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patrons 264:24,25

270:19 274:10

419:4

pause 235:20 236:3

321:6 337:3

pay 299:23 302:20

370:22

payback 264:10

302:22 307:1 312:3

312:8,11,14 313:10

325:6,20

paying 351:16

397:14

payment 351:12,21

371:2

payout 226:18

298:22 302:6

309:13 331:21

332:13

payouts 226:21

penny 244:19

people 215:12

230:16 236:6,9,19

240:15 244:7

247:25 248:24

250:18 268:6,9

270:1 279:13,13,17

281:2 283:10

285:10 292:11,12

299:9 301:10

305:15 306:18

307:17 310:9,10

321:3,15 324:2

328:23 335:5,7

340:18 342:19,22

342:24 344:15,16

346:21 347:10

350:12 351:4 359:2

368:14 372:21

374:13 391:1

393:12 404:18

411:7,17 418:8

422:5 426:2 428:11

436:7,8 439:21

people's 383:9

perceived 255:14

percent 244:3

272:14,16 302:20

302:21 307:6,6,11

318:20 319:5,8

323:11 324:23

325:5,20,20 326:3

331:25 332:1,23

370:16 373:10

376:1,3 377:4,18

percentage 264:11

298:22 303:4 307:1

307:6 312:3,8,11

313:10 325:17

330:23 331:19,25

332:14 334:4

336:23 374:20,22

percentages 299:13

315:6 325:25 368:9

375:14,19

perception 313:15

perfect 385:7

perform 322:3

345:7,24 346:18

392:11 397:1

performed 357:14

performing 345:4,9

390:10,12 391:17

392:24 396:17

397:14

performs 393:15

396:5

period 224:5 243:10

300:18 334:10

359:12 361:2

364:21,25 379:15

periodic 345:21

346:1

person 251:23

270:16 299:2

345:20 346:24

347:17 348:19

373:13 391:17

393:5,7 394:3,25

395:11 396:4

422:20

personally 217:18

251:6 267:18 410:3

413:11

personnel 250:20

perspective 255:8

265:15 316:12

318:21 360:17

421:13 433:13,14

pertains 364:25

philosophically

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phoenix 211:21

phone 315:12,13

physical 312:12

313:23 316:24

317:1 368:7 377:10

378:16 379:24

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picking 347:23

piece 217:10 333:9

349:14

pieces 211:9 218:6,6

pin 388:3,4

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place 224:10 244:24

248:3 252:6,8,16

255:10,22 260:12

260:15,18 263:14

266:8 273:17

274:24 276:19

278:9 291:19

304:15,16 314:16

314:21 315:3,10

320:2,3,4,17,20,23

321:1 323:6 324:25

325:11,18 331:9

333:17 360:4,13

394:25 414:10

421:24 439:16

placed 286:10

places 226:16 227:9

227:12 259:12

293:9 304:10

314:21 333:4

plain 229:8

plan 435:12,13

play 224:9,10,11,18

239:13 242:20

250:22 268:20

297:18 298:11,15

298:18,23 300:10

303:7 314:19

323:22 324:3,4

327:7,8,14,14

332:11,18 335:9

342:5 349:25

368:23 375:23

388:5 404:15,18,23

414:8,12,13,21

played 224:1,3

232:5 241:1 270:7,8

270:12 274:13

298:2 301:1 327:11

332:4 369:2,5,7

371:16,20 373:22

375:2 377:5

player 219:22

221:18,19,21

225:16 226:2,2,4,5

305:6 310:15 332:2

403:2,4,17,19,24

404:3 406:16 407:1

407:3 410:11 411:9

411:11 412:25

413:10 414:10,24

415:2,11,21,24

416:8,14,16,23

419:19,24 420:2,9

420:13,21 421:9,14

421:18 422:3,16

423:18,20,24

425:13 426:15

428:1,11 429:19

430:7,18 434:5,14

434:20

players 219:25

221:1 222:7 225:8

225:13 240:15,16

241:14 250:20

252:23 274:7,10

375:3 387:1 416:12

416:13

playing 242:17

299:11,24 300:16

303:5,6,15,18 310:2

310:9,11 311:2

313:14 323:24

326:14 335:5

343:20 369:9,13

414:17 423:22

please 233:23 282:6

289:16

plus 318:19 319:4

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384:24 385:8

386:23 388:21

390:4 391:19

393:11 396:2,10,11

398:2,6,10 399:25

400:6 401:1 402:6

403:1 406:8,20,20

406:21 407:8,9,20

407:24 409:2

412:12 413:23

414:5,22 415:2

418:22 420:20

422:7 426:15 428:7

430:23 431:19

433:17 435:21

436:18,20

rise 390:21 391:9

392:23

rises 436:8

risk 224:15 228:3,9

228:14 258:20,20

261:17 296:17,17

296:20 301:20,20

301:24,25 302:2,3,5

304:25 308:20

309:1,4,5,12,16,17

309:24,25,25

311:19,20 313:3

314:11 316:8

320:16 321:23,23

324:6 330:15 333:1

333:2,3,5 336:20

339:1 344:23 345:5

345:7,10,19,22,24

345:25 346:3,5,18

346:21 347:5,14,21

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424:7 426:16

427:18

riskier 417:14

risks 315:17 321:15

321:19 345:12

360:25 362:7

410:21 411:20

421:14,18 428:4

road 232:18 256:12

robert 211:20

282:16

robin 210:11 283:22

433:23

robust 410:21

rock 424:7

role 252:24 268:20

roof 253:2

room 238:9 240:10

240:13 241:21

242:3 270:21 343:6

396:6 398:22

rooms 221:13

333:25

rule 252:13 253:23

254:9,19 256:20

272:5 278:22,22

309:8 324:17

375:13

rules 222:14 223:5,6

223:8,15 248:9

249:7 251:2,3,5,11

251:15 253:8,14,21

254:4,22 255:1,10

255:22 256:5,14,18

258:25 259:2,23

260:4,6,9,17 261:18

262:2 268:12

270:10,20,23,24

271:7 273:9,10,14

273:17,18,24

274:18,23 276:14

276:15,21 303:22

304:18 312:23,24

313:1,3,6,6,17,19,20

314:16 318:13

325:16 420:20

run 218:4 221:7

224:15 226:9

352:14 373:8 374:5

375:10,11 376:11

379:9 419:25

running 223:20

232:25 271:6

424:23 428:13

runs 232:13

rush 212:10

s

safe 232:8 233:7

sale 352:4,7 367:2

sales 367:11 373:1

sampling 319:3

satisfy 316:20

saturday 239:3

saw 294:6 426:5

saying 218:12

219:10 220:5

222:10 224:22

230:17 232:14

234:4,5 241:20

254:8,13 256:9,24

264:9 265:11 267:2

269:1 271:1 274:5

274:23 276:13

277:5 280:5 283:16

295:4,6,7 299:21

300:21 309:22

311:3,5,6 324:24

325:2,14 326:23

329:15,18,19

330:23 342:14,15

345:25 347:12,12

347:13 348:17,19

353:16 358:11

359:8,10,11,13

361:11 362:18

372:7 384:12 391:6

391:16,22,23,25

397:11 412:13,21

413:18 415:15,17

415:19 419:13

427:22 431:5 432:6

432:13,14,17

433:19 436:16,17

438:11

says 215:3 224:11

226:23 232:8,9

233:8,9 234:13

239:6 242:7,15

243:15 251:1 253:7

253:10,14,17

255:24 257:1

258:19 260:23

264:7 266:17 281:1

284:15,17 295:8

296:14,16,24 297:1

297:16 299:1,25

300:22,23 303:22

304:16 306:21

322:4 324:18

326:16 328:3

330:19 342:3

345:13,23 354:25

355:2 357:8,13

358:1,3 363:18

367:10 368:7 370:8

371:2 377:16

387:11 388:25

392:10 394:17,21

405:9 406:1 407:4

409:9 411:15 418:1

418:1 425:11

427:15,16 435:18

scale 326:2,3,4

scam 409:25 422:7

scammed 404:3

scams 403:12

scenario 433:12

scenarios 354:4

schedule 359:1

399:17 400:7

401:20 402:2

scheduled 246:11

321:8 440:13

scope 347:11

screen 214:23

235:22 236:8 237:5

245:6 335:6 341:11

344:1 407:11

418:20 422:24

se 268:23 275:11

379:14

seat 263:16 280:10

280:17

seattle 212:14

second 223:1 236:3

247:10,11 289:3

294:11 306:17,19

336:6 345:13

389:20 391:1 406:6

409:9 435:15

secrecy 385:22

386:1,3 397:7

section 214:12,13,20

214:22 215:1,15,17

215:20,25 216:7

217:14,14,22,22,25

223:4,11,13 225:15

225:17,19 226:4,10

226:11,13,14,23

227:24 229:3 237:9

245:17 247:13

248:7 268:18

277:19 281:6,7

284:10 286:14,19

288:20 293:6

295:10 297:8,25

327:12 335:7,8

342:18 346:8 349:4

349:5 356:13 357:1

365:15 366:3,8,10

367:5 377:15

380:19,22,24

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319:11 340:19

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389:25 392:5

393:13 394:8 399:1

400:3 403:24

406:21 411:6

420:24 424:1 425:6

431:11,11 435:20

435:23 436:5,12,19

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seeding 244:12

seeing 395:22 404:9

405:18

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318:12 381:24

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sees 225:7

selected 375:7

self 320:11

sell 302:25 334:1,6

378:17 379:3,13,21

sellable 342:7

selling 303:9

send 210:25 352:10

sense 259:22 262:9

300:13 389:13

405:23 417:16

438:19 439:15

sent 306:7,7

sentence 294:9,13

342:3 345:13

351:20 390:2 409:9

separate 288:1

290:19 335:8 394:6

separately 351:8

separates 327:10

seriously 295:16

served 272:10

server 373:12 374:8

420:14 430:13,14

servers 374:5

service 387:20

session 338:1 401:8

401:10

set 237:4 254:18

257:25 258:21

263:13,23 278:10

298:24 302:19

314:3 323:10

329:24,25 422:11

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sets 259:5 318:24

377:7 408:4

setting 272:22

288:11 313:9

seven 289:13 349:8

349:17,23 350:18

354:21 383:14

398:14

shake 325:2

share 220:1

shared 219:21

sheet 377:22 378:2

sheets 377:4 378:3

shift 239:18 240:22

249:9

shipping 349:24

short 211:4,5,12

235:20 300:11

349:22 403:18

shortly 324:14

shot 250:8

show 211:10 260:20

368:18 375:10

379:10 389:21

showing 241:16

shows 373:10

shut 375:20

shy 385:12

side 268:9 282:10

394:12 416:21

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433:17

sidetracked 217:21

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266:12 314:18

significant 318:19

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similar 246:21

264:14 278:4

300:11,12 332:22

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simple 306:3

simply 332:20

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simultaneous 221:9

231:10 241:5

242:12 251:17

270:15 288:15

299:16 354:2 372:4

396:13 398:15

406:4 408:10 415:7

416:25 431:4

single 221:19,20,25

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sir 249:18

sister 251:21 252:4

sisters 265:10

sit 314:5 332:9

340:22 401:12

site 290:14 327:5

406:7

sits 221:3 299:12

sitting 280:9,17

310:13 316:22

323:3 422:6 437:11

situation 224:25

225:2 229:8 230:9

266:16 322:23

363:15

situations 229:4

230:3,9 347:18

351:20

six 289:12 308:10,11

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398:6

size 224:6 379:17

sizes 380:1

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sky 373:18

slight 292:2

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slippery 234:25

272:6

slope 234:25 272:6

slot 280:9,17 377:3

416:23

small 231:3 240:9

250:19 268:11

278:11 306:15

422:19

smaller 230:16,20

333:3 361:20

smokin 325:3

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somebody 221:4,22

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soon 371:24

sophistication 365:6

sorry 213:10 223:2

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366:10 369:20

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sounds 244:24

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331:22 339:16

418:12

sovereign 259:5,14

sovereignty 275:9

434:4

space 300:16

speak 213:8,11

236:21 301:4

305:11 310:17

340:2

speaking 313:21

361:6,23 411:4,5

440:7

specialized 345:20

345:20

specific 219:11

224:7,14,21 229:9

229:10,12,14 232:7

232:23 234:1 244:6

252:16 255:1 295:5

329:2 345:9 362:25

404:2 408:24 422:1

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225:16 232:15

238:19 252:1 284:9

296:16 372:10

374:17 387:25

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312:19 418:15

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377:16

specify 357:22

speculate 339:14

spend 217:18 228:7

228:11 231:5

308:21

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spent 316:5

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435:25 436:10

spot 364:12 366:24

407:9

stack 303:9,12,14

stacks 324:8

stacona 291:22

338:16,21 339:8

staff 263:11 304:6

stagnant 323:4

stand 247:1,12

283:19 285:25

286:6,6 287:7

436:24

standard 216:22

220:9,12,13,15,21

227:8,8,9,10,13,21

228:15 229:11

233:17 237:23

238:13 239:22

241:12 242:5

246:24 252:11,16

253:14 254:5

261:11,19 294:23

294:23 295:1

318:10,21 319:4

326:10,15 329:10

330:12,24 334:25

336:8,12 337:2

338:11 339:10

340:6 344:14

351:14,15 370:17

383:4 387:19 399:6

404:25 408:4

standards 216:10,12

218:25 219:2,6,9

224:23 237:14

247:13 248:15

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266:10 269:24

281:13 285:14

294:21 297:2,3

316:13 318:16

340:4 355:1,3

367:20 388:15

389:1,3,4,24 390:1

393:11 403:18

405:3 409:11

418:24 420:18

426:11,12,13

standpoint 249:25

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stapled 334:8

star 214:6

start 210:6,8 213:20

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243:18 250:18

259:20 262:25

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293:21,25 297:18

316:1 337:8 338:6

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386:16

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356:21 368:6

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232:25 233:5,8,21

234:12 235:5

251:11 252:1

264:16 268:18

275:19 291:22

306:12 310:4 312:1

312:2 318:7,7,17

325:10 333:24

334:1 342:21

370:15 375:11

405:25 409:22,24

420:15 430:10,11

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stated 364:19,20

statement 295:1

338:22 346:12

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361:17 363:13

365:22 367:21,22

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363:23 427:4

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sticking 405:2

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213:24 214:17

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428:23

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418:16

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strike 222:16 231:18

231:25 237:1

266:20

striking 231:11

237:4

stringent 395:3

strong 252:22

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405:17 412:2,14

416:2,9 423:5 424:4

435:17 436:2

stronger 412:9

419:2

structure 228:25

struggle 257:21

struggled 239:16

stuff 211:17 245:14

260:25 327:16

348:1,11 364:15

365:19 413:4,6

423:22 425:13

stupid 256:20 395:2

style 265:17

styled 324:11

subject 253:5 268:6

295:18 315:12

402:16 424:22

427:13 436:11,11

subjects 220:20

424:13

submit 251:5 286:11

submitted 253:22

306:4 319:22

367:25 439:8

subsection 399:6

406:8

substance 217:8,20

substantiate 362:9

sudden 303:15

309:15

suddenly 367:15

suggest 293:13

364:23

suggested 231:22

335:8 433:20

suggesting 378:23

suggestion 230:12

230:20 246:8

286:11 308:17,18

342:10 345:17

355:16 359:24

suggests 377:18

summaries 210:13

summary 210:18,24

210:25 211:7 306:9

306:22 342:5

sundaes 257:10

sundry 221:15

358:10

superseding 397:6

supervised 395:9

supervision 296:24

296:25 297:12

supervisor 396:6

427:10

supplements 294:25

supplies 396:7

support 244:22

245:5 246:3 265:10

270:2,2 271:12

272:21 281:15,18

282:5,21 283:1,7,7

284:20 286:22

288:19 289:4,14,19

341:16 343:24

366:17 385:4,5

399:4 404:5

supported 221:18

238:14 267:1

282:25

supporting 439:22

supports 274:3

282:20 284:22

suppose 275:7 329:1

supposed 255:24

268:20 309:20

335:13 376:7

392:23 400:8

408:12 417:24

418:5

suquamish 209:5,9

209:10 210:1

sure 228:15 235:12

239:23 240:2

246:17 248:9 250:2

251:15 253:9,17

255:21 260:17

261:10 262:6 266:9

268:5 286:24

291:18 300:5 303:4

305:24 317:12

334:9,22 348:21

353:14,15 355:17

358:22,22 363:9

364:11 367:16

380:6,17 386:5

397:1 404:1 410:20

411:16,17 417:7

427:4 438:3

surrender 351:11

surrounding 327:16

393:14

surveillance 248:18

suspect 218:5 363:3

sway 432:10

sync 358:5

syncing 358:15

system 257:15

325:25 380:7

387:25 395:20,21

403:17 404:4

411:11 414:4 415:2

416:15,16,18,23

417:14,15,22,23

419:19,25 420:3,9

421:15,19,19,20,23

422:3,17 430:19

systems 380:4

406:16 407:4 414:3

416:3 429:24 430:7

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303:18,19 304:8,25

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311:25 312:12

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348:9,12 349:24

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372:14 375:7 376:3

376:8 377:10

379:23,24 381:4,11

381:20 382:6,14

383:24 384:17

403:4,6

tac 289:2 321:11

337:9 441:3

tackled 424:14

tagging 433:2

tahdooahnippah

213:21 214:9 222:9

222:15 236:15

251:24 257:11

284:24 287:20

288:2 289:22 290:5

303:1 306:11,21

307:2 308:3,8

336:13 364:9

365:16 367:12

379:12 382:7 384:9

395:10,14,24

419:18,21,23

take 211:9 223:18

227:12 229:15,23

230:1,23 231:15

235:20 236:2

240:10 243:7,8,13

244:2,13 259:25

265:14,21 277:22

279:16 290:3

293:13,14 295:11

295:15 300:16

310:22 314:14

316:4 322:5 329:18

329:24 330:7 337:4

345:2,8,11 348:4

350:16 356:10

360:4,13 379:13

385:9 388:2,4

414:10 419:9 424:8

429:11,16,20

431:24 437:12

438:16 439:13

takeaway 316:12

taken 215:14 225:3

229:5 265:5 290:15

293:17 324:6,25

329:13 357:6

371:25 379:10,10

385:10 398:12

taker 210:15

takes 320:2 325:19

395:16

talk 214:23 269:8

275:8 285:20 301:4

304:17 306:25

311:20 327:15

337:5 340:22

344:23 349:8

356:20 359:25

381:8 383:25

385:23 400:14

401:3,10 439:21

440:6

talked 210:19

277:16 321:16

338:25 344:22

355:19 368:12

389:16,18 398:2,10

400:1,13 414:9

433:5

talking 214:11,18

216:16 217:9,25

221:11 230:14

232:21 235:18

236:6 254:6,7

262:25 270:3,5,17

279:12 290:9

297:21 301:20

312:10 326:10,12

327:21 338:19

361:4 363:16 371:3

375:4 377:9 378:25

383:5 391:12

404:24 409:21

410:3,4 411:13

415:1 432:4 434:12

434:13 436:25

439:16

talks 238:14 247:11

262:21 308:4

327:16 349:23

377:15 391:14

395:7 410:23

412:24 421:9

tampered 369:24

target 409:14

task 345:20

tasks 392:11

taverns 333:25

technical 267:4

348:10 389:24

390:1 425:15

technological

380:19

technology 210:7

tell 213:7 253:3

255:5,12 258:13

261:22 267:23

271:18 308:6

352:16 369:2

375:22 380:9

418:23

telling 239:23

254:24 258:4

275:10 287:11

348:18 437:11

tells 254:21 353:4

template 258:12

263:17

ten 244:13 357:9,12

366:15 368:7

tend 235:6 427:13

tends 220:23

term 255:25 256:10

312:22 345:4 371:7

389:18

terminals 305:7

terminology 345:9

terms 233:17,18

255:20 278:7

315:17 348:22,23

348:25 366:13

territory 431:13

test 236:20 245:4,8

245:12,13,14,16

246:1 279:4 281:5

286:4,12 287:25

288:18 308:23

309:1 317:10 334:3

340:19,24,25

341:10,11,16

343:22 356:4

366:12 385:1 399:2

430:24

tested 340:23

testing 348:6 365:10

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252:3 253:10,15

254:23 255:7,13,14

255:25 256:2,4,6,10

257:3,4,6,8 258:9

258:18 259:8,13,18

260:4,10 261:5,6,10

261:14,16,21,22,25

262:5,7,21 263:7

264:9,9 265:24

266:2,14 277:8

279:16 284:17

291:18 298:16

301:10 306:7

318:18 319:21

325:11,21 331:11

333:9,10 334:21

347:3 392:11 393:7

434:1,6,7

tgra's 249:4

tgras 258:11 265:10

267:2,21 284:6

347:10,23

tgwg 211:11 218:3

224:20 246:3 278:5

285:9 293:22,24

294:4,12 296:6

341:17 351:4 384:3

385:4,5,17 399:4

405:4 407:4 433:18

tgwg's 215:24

433:20

thanks 211:18

212:20,23,24

theft 257:8 274:5

326:17

theme 294:15

themed 322:2

theoretical 319:7

325:15 331:19

351:21 353:21,24

354:1,5,10,11 368:9

368:12,19,25

369:11 370:3,25

371:5,12 373:3

374:2,18 375:6

377:23 378:1,20

418:4

theory 286:4

thin 402:14

thing 212:12 231:13

233:24 242:2 246:6

257:5 259:24

261:24 270:4

275:22 279:12

299:20 302:17

305:13 310:8 314:2

316:25 324:11

341:8 342:15

362:21 406:6 415:5

416:24 425:10

428:20 429:20

431:10 441:1

things 210:20

214:11,13 225:11

226:13 229:24

236:25 237:2 250:7

252:1 253:13

254:21 257:9

258:12 259:15,16

259:19,21,22 261:4

265:11 270:22

282:20 285:19

319:6 323:3 324:12

326:18 329:3 343:2

350:22 361:13

362:13,20 386:10

392:20,22 395:18

405:12 407:23

408:5 418:11

421:10 427:3,8

431:10,18 432:24

438:20,24

think 210:13 211:25

215:2,6,12 216:3,14

216:20 217:12

218:7,14,15,19

220:8 221:16

222:15 225:14,24

226:7 227:5,6 228:2

229:2 230:7 235:6

237:8 238:12 239:1

239:6,19 240:5

242:8,13 243:16

244:16 245:18

246:10 247:5

249:24 250:13

251:4 252:13

254:16 255:25

256:9 258:13

259:24 260:3,11

265:9,21 266:20

268:6,17,24,25

269:7,17,20,21,22

270:18,23,24 271:6

271:11 272:13,18

272:22 274:4

276:18,19,20,21,23

277:9,18,20 278:15

280:4,21,23 283:9

284:2,8 285:22

287:8,20 290:6

291:3,4,11,23

292:21 296:3

297:19 298:3,17

299:20 300:8,17

301:7,10,18 302:18

305:18 306:2,11

307:2 311:11

312:18 313:22

314:15 315:2,22

317:14 319:9

320:12,15,19 322:1

322:9,14,22 323:12

323:14 325:9

328:24 332:25

333:18 335:19

336:3,11 338:24

339:4,13,22 340:8

340:10,18 343:14

344:21,22 346:19

346:25 347:13,17

347:19 349:10

350:4 353:3 356:16

357:2,5 358:18

359:1,21,25 360:3

360:17 361:8

362:17 363:11

365:2,7 368:11,16

369:21 370:5,6

372:6,24 373:2

374:4,12 375:9

376:17,21 377:7,11

377:21 378:2,14,17

379:8,16,22,25

380:20 383:1 384:6

385:8,19 388:21

390:25 395:6

397:17,25 398:2,3

398:10 400:24

404:20,25 405:5

406:22 407:25

408:24 409:4 410:6

410:7 411:4 412:2

412:11,14,23 413:9

414:6,9 416:1,7

417:15 418:14

423:2,11 424:11

425:5,25 427:1,6,13

427:21,22 428:9,11

428:15 431:9,14,15

431:17,22 432:14

435:8 439:25

440:21

thinking 230:23

248:8 256:25

339:15,22 346:4

375:12 408:17,17

408:18

thinks 280:16

340:19 412:9

third 394:22 397:15

412:24

thomas 214:6 215:2

215:8 221:6 222:2

222:23 225:14,21

236:17 319:17

320:15 322:9

327:25 364:8

372:10,19 384:6,10

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thought 260:22

268:7 282:3 284:13

345:18 380:3

387:19 402:25

403:2 408:2 422:8

423:12 424:12

434:22

thoughts 383:9

409:16

thousand 437:3

thousands 307:8

437:3

three 241:1,2 248:14

249:16,17 253:13

254:21 261:4

280:22 282:20

285:2 288:25 289:1

289:12,15,18 294:9

294:10 314:4

318:20 319:5

324:23 325:5 326:3

332:9,23 377:18

379:20 403:21

405:2 407:19

410:17 412:23

413:8 421:4,6

threshold 313:5

377:3,18 388:14,16

throw 287:2 348:2

350:5 424:7 435:9

throwing 374:24

431:20

thursday 213:3

239:3

tickets 370:18

tie 216:19 244:18

357:6 363:22

tied 223:13

ties 346:2

time 211:5,12,24

217:9,19 221:11

228:8,11 230:15,19

231:5,14 232:5

236:25 237:25

238:22,24 240:6

243:13 251:23

256:20 260:9

270:11,17 288:18

291:10,15 300:11

300:12,18 308:21

319:16 320:10

321:7 329:8 332:10

334:10 363:7,13,22

364:1,21 370:20

375:13 377:5

384:25 389:18

399:7,12 436:23

440:12,13,17

timelines 320:1

timely 400:4

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254:17 393:3

timing 320:7 358:14

tinker 232:12

tiny 275:21

title 388:12,15,17,18

389:3 394:13 397:3

titles 393:19 394:20

tito 300:11 388:1

tmi 429:9

today 211:17 228:20

228:21 285:20

375:17 401:16,17

436:18 441:1

told 325:21,21

tom 217:4 247:8,9

261:8 262:10

266:23 268:16

273:21 274:25

277:1 281:4 326:8

330:12 335:15,17

399:15

tom's 258:9

tomorrow 211:14

211:16 231:9 400:8

400:19 401:1,5,17

401:22 402:12

tonight 385:15

409:18 412:16

tool 426:16

top 297:15,20

299:10 303:2 307:4

314:4,11 324:1,3

352:14 353:19

354:21,24,25 355:5

355:6 356:22

369:15 383:15

384:16,18

topic 399:18

topics 231:14

total 265:6

touch 381:6 409:18

touched 240:4

tough 439:1,5

tournament 215:5

222:12,14 223:23

226:1

tournaments 214:21

215:23 216:5,11

219:4,8,12 221:2,5

221:8 224:22 225:5

225:8,12 226:1

229:6,13 235:9

269:22

towels 270:1,4

track 213:2,7 353:3

353:4 385:13

416:12

tracked 253:9

tracking 403:2,4,17

403:19,24 404:4

406:16 407:1,3

410:11 411:9,11

412:25 413:11

414:10,15,24 415:2

415:11,21,24 416:9

416:10,15,16,23

419:19,25 420:3,9

420:14,21 421:15

421:18 422:3,16

423:18,20,24

425:13 426:15

428:2,11 429:19

430:7,19 434:5,14

434:20

traffic 212:11

trail 415:23 418:4

train 347:25

trained 259:19

training 267:4 409:2

425:15

transaction 386:8

396:15

transactions 362:23

386:3

transcribed 209:24

transcript 292:20

432:6

transfer 419:3

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tread 232:17

treat 388:9

treated 232:17

tribal 209:3 250:20

252:10,14,22,24

259:4,11,13 261:24

262:14 271:23

274:19,20 275:2,3

278:23 291:6 312:7

312:13 317:23

333:25 349:11

387:9,18 402:21

433:13 434:4 437:9

438:15,22

tribe 233:3,10 261:7

261:11,13 262:16

262:16 263:8,25,25

269:4,5,6,15,17

276:20 291:23

320:19 321:1 330:4

330:5 427:22 434:1

434:4 440:2,7,7,8

tribes 224:9 275:5

290:3 433:1

trick 419:22

tricky 242:23

tried 394:15

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trouble 242:6

true 221:6 279:21

351:22 354:6,8

367:5,21,22 379:7

427:2 429:22

436:11

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257:16 258:3 259:7

282:19 287:19

293:18 315:11

331:24 332:2

366:16 385:3

403:20 426:5 438:4

trying 217:23

218:15 220:4,7,17

227:5,21 228:11

229:1 240:8 261:19

265:9 274:5,12,12

295:15 303:14

307:8 309:14

310:20 311:1 316:5

321:21 324:4

326:20 335:19

339:8 354:3,5

383:17 392:3

405:25 411:21

419:12 422:6

432:10,18 437:15

437:15

tube 324:13

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341:23 374:20,23

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220:20 223:25

229:24 236:8,22

237:3,9,18 245:5,19

249:16 271:24

280:15,22,24 282:7

282:25 283:10

285:2 288:23

289:12 318:17

332:9 341:25 344:2

344:5 350:17

351:15 362:7,18

379:2,20 387:8,12

387:13,14 398:7

403:21 405:21

407:19 410:17

413:2 417:1 421:1

type 216:12 219:6

220:6 222:7 226:17

249:14 258:6,12

268:3,10,13 278:19

280:5,25 291:24

318:1,24 332:22,23

393:11 403:5

414:18 436:25

types 216:7 223:14

226:13 232:15

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241:21 307:9

typo 367:8

u

ultimately 292:23

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303:21 326:16

405:11

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234:5 247:20

253:20 259:20,22

269:18 271:1 277:6

312:25 315:22

316:16 339:19

340:10 370:2 375:2

387:7 388:12 418:8

432:18 434:15

understanding

212:1 218:20

237:11 259:19

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312:20 344:15

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unfortunately

262:22 265:12

428:18

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234:3

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425:11

unnecessarily

296:19

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432:19

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386:5,6,11,14

387:24 388:13,19

398:8

update 237:24

updated 238:3,6

usc 284:1

use 225:6 227:3

299:6 310:3 342:22

350:7 395:3 417:23

429:4

usually 348:5

utilize 334:2

v

vague 239:14

296:19 325:7 425:6

vaguely 302:1

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valid 256:10 371:9

372:12 373:7,21

420:8

value 368:25 369:9

370:17 372:6 374:1

378:20 411:9

values 369:1

variance 324:22

325:15 332:23

368:20 374:23

variations 236:8

242:25 243:3

318:19

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358:9 360:2 392:20

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vegas 403:21

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241:7,22 243:9

verify 239:21

312:14 357:16

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version 246:3 318:3

341:17 384:4 399:4

406:2 407:4,11,11

versions 380:1,4

versus 268:2 275:23

280:13 304:13

311:13 321:1

327:14 344:25

368:9,19 393:4

vested 292:25

vice 403:22

video 377:9

view 220:18 230:8

248:25 249:6,21

257:20 340:3

violate 284:6 317:13

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violating 273:6,8

violation 224:15

virtue 310:6

vision 251:12

427:22

visit 293:9,10

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278:16 281:11

282:2,4,10 288:3,7

336:4 356:11,14

376:17 399:9

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436:23

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vulnerability 348:6

w

wac 302:17

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236:20 251:22,22

271:17 277:19

282:9 306:17

381:13 401:7

waiting 305:6

314:18 367:18

424:6

want 210:10 212:11

215:24 218:13

219:5 232:16

233:17,25,25

240:13 250:6 260:6

262:4 263:15,18

264:19 265:25

266:12,13 268:4

270:9 272:24 273:4

276:11 277:7,17,21

278:16 279:4,6,8,13

279:13,21,22,24

282:1,8 283:4

284:24 286:1,8

287:9 289:20,25

291:22 292:8,11,12

292:13 293:21,22

293:25 297:6

299:23 300:14

301:25 303:11

306:14 308:22

310:13 315:9 316:6

319:1 320:19,21

321:18 322:4,25

323:1 325:6,19

326:19 329:17

332:13,16 335:17

341:1,4 346:7 348:2

348:5,8 350:11

351:9,9 354:16

355:20 356:14,19

360:14 361:14

364:19 365:11

368:6 373:13

377:13 379:8

380:11 383:6 384:1

384:2,24 385:1,17

385:18,23 397:1

399:1 401:7,10,15

411:20 412:6

413:25 416:6 417:4

417:8,13 421:21,21

421:25 429:13,19

430:23,24 432:22

433:6,7,11 435:2,9

435:20,21 436:9

437:17,25 438:11

438:22 440:11

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248:11,15 285:5,8

295:24 319:10

344:22 350:4

380:13 386:13

419:4 420:5 437:13

wants 306:14

323:22 334:6 337:5

350:10 380:17

398:25

warrant 301:19

washington 209:5

210:1 302:12 312:1

318:6,7 331:17

333:24 370:15

375:11 409:23

430:10

waste 411:22 417:17

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429:23

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218:7,9 226:10,11

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240:25 243:2

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278:7 279:8 283:17

287:22 289:21

293:4 314:25 315:7

315:8 316:19 317:3

321:16 323:15

336:22 340:4,16

343:10 352:3 356:9

369:2,5,7 381:16

393:6 397:17 401:6

402:1 405:8 409:5,5

412:24 415:16

418:17,17 424:9

430:11,12,16,17

431:12 433:18

436:23

ways 221:15 335:5

422:2,7

we've 212:18 246:11

264:3 265:18 282:7

288:23 289:12

291:11 292:22

299:17 305:20

318:20 319:5 320:2

321:22 330:15

336:20,25 360:1

364:17 372:25

381:11,14 385:6

398:1,3 417:1

424:10,11 431:15

432:20 437:10

438:3

weakness 416:7,8

web 290:14 406:6

wednesday 239:5

394:23

week 211:1,2 237:13

237:18,25 239:7,9

239:14 240:11

241:2,3 242:8,16

243:8,14 405:20

weekly 239:5,18

328:9 361:14

weeks 405:21

weigh 328:6,10

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weight 290:4

welcome 337:6

401:14

went 220:16 239:25

265:6,8 287:23

296:12 388:6 424:2

428:22 438:25

439:7

west 215:21 216:9

216:19,24 218:23

220:23 221:12

222:13 224:20

225:22 229:1,13,22

230:5 231:11 235:1

235:4 237:12,17,22

238:8,24 240:8

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296:3 297:15,23

298:1,14 299:3,7

301:9 305:4,13

318:5 319:9 338:19

338:24 344:11

345:2 346:5,11,14

346:19,25 347:12

348:4,12,21 350:4

350:20 351:23

352:8 354:7,9,12,24

355:5,7,11,25 357:2

357:24 358:5,16

359:5,16,24 361:19

363:4 367:17,21,25

371:18 372:1 373:6

374:4,25 375:6,9,22

376:9 377:2,11,21

379:8,18 381:17

383:13 390:20

403:9 404:24

405:20 406:22

412:23 416:14,22

421:25 422:19

whatsoever 291:6

wheatley 219:18,22

220:2 221:16

225:24 233:2

238:21 239:1 240:5

252:18 253:1 264:5

287:6 289:8 295:19

298:21 301:23

302:11,13,16,24

303:3 306:25 307:4

311:24 313:22

315:11 317:6

322:16 323:8,12,25

327:24 331:22

332:17 333:3,18

353:11,15 354:16

364:6,11 365:11,14

365:18 366:4,7

368:16 369:6 370:5

371:24 374:16

375:5,8,16,18 377:9

378:14 379:5,16,19

380:6 381:24 385:3

395:19 396:22

397:4 407:16 408:9

409:19 410:6

411:18 412:11

413:3,7,15 414:5

415:17 416:1

420:21

whichever 309:3

whittle 303:7,14

whoa 316:4

wholeheartedly

373:20

wide 269:9

widespread 421:20

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284:15

wilson 215:13 217:5

226:8 228:1 229:10

231:2 234:4,13,19

235:25 247:10

255:5 261:9 262:15

263:21 268:17

275:1 279:24

281:10,14 282:9

288:3,7,10 294:2,10

294:14,22 295:17

295:23 296:22

297:1,9 309:4,17,21

310:19 311:15

315:15 316:10

317:4 323:14 326:9

327:22 328:1,12,15

328:18 329:1,22

330:3,14 331:13

333:7 334:15,24

335:18,21 336:3,7

336:17 343:11,14

349:14 351:19

353:16,22 354:3,8

355:12 357:7,12

358:17 359:8,17,25

360:16 361:22

363:24 364:22

365:21 371:7,11,14

376:21 377:14

392:13,18 393:10

395:1,4 399:13,16

399:21,24 400:3

401:9,15,24 406:14

406:24 407:7

410:20 411:14,19

413:9 415:1,4,14

417:7,12 420:8

421:3,11,17 422:13

426:14,21 427:1,19

427:25 428:15,18

432:12,18 434:9,15

434:18 435:4,6

win 252:14 310:23

313:16 316:7 352:5

369:10 373:1

winner 298:25

307:20 315:24,25

315:25

winning 312:16

313:13 350:8 351:8

351:11 352:6

353:10

wins 367:23

wise 440:12

wish 440:17

wishes 321:11

440:15

won 298:19 308:5

313:25 317:2

367:17 369:14

388:5

wonder 352:15

wondered 210:14

wondering 294:5

406:25 419:6

word 220:21 233:15

262:18,20 263:1

279:12 290:24,24

325:8 329:5 343:25

344:15 345:22

395:2

wording 255:13

261:22 269:23

327:8,19 331:13

359:9

words 232:15

250:19 251:18

256:1 310:3 329:5

330:8 436:1 439:2

work 211:8 212:18

239:17 243:25

244:21 248:24

259:16 271:23

279:7,22 285:9

300:17 303:19

314:9 317:23

335:14,16 344:7

400:16,22,25 402:3

423:5 431:14,17,23

437:11 438:9,10

439:6

workable 433:8

worked 318:8 345:6

353:8 381:11,15

398:1,21 416:22

working 212:17

271:16,18 284:25

289:23 291:12

349:11 387:10,19

402:21 414:18,23

425:8 437:9,14,23

438:15,22

works 227:15

236:13 259:23

312:24 389:11

404:12

world 227:16

240:15 302:9

425:17

worms 429:2

worries 325:18

worry 233:7 267:20

322:21

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wow 366:23

write 253:21 278:22

292:13,14 306:4

322:4 339:10 340:6

354:15 408:25

written 273:1

275:16 300:21

319:24 321:8

397:17 409:5,6

430:17

wrong 250:24 272:9

311:12 323:7

334:23 397:5

406:22,25

wrote 346:20 408:18

409:8

x

x 295:3 314:17

330:7

y

y 330:7

yeah 218:11 220:21

222:1 229:10

234:19 236:18

238:8,8 243:23

246:20 266:8

282:17 289:9 292:7

295:2 299:5 302:15

303:3 304:15 315:2

315:20 326:6 333:4

338:21 343:6

350:14 354:22

366:2 372:19

375:18 385:9,25

389:12 390:17

394:15 407:7,16

409:16,17 415:6

419:17 420:8 421:8

427:25

year 263:19 269:11

403:21

years 403:22 426:1

yellow 246:6

yeses 288:23

yesterday 210:10

216:4 222:22

231:19,20 254:17

294:3 295:22 433:6

z

z 330:7

[wow - z] Page 44

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