TRIBAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE; December 6, 2011

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2 _________________________________________________________

3 TRIBAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE

4 MEETING

5 SUQUAMISH, WASHINGTON

6 VOLUME I

7 _________________________________________________________

8

9 SUQUAMISH CLEARWATER CASINO RESORT

10 15347 SUQUAMISH WAY NORTHEAST

11 CHIEF KITSAP HALL

12 DECEMBER 6, 2011

13 8:12 A.M.

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24 TRANSCRIBED BY: CHERYL L. O'HALECK

25 Job No. NJ366120

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1 SUQUAMISH, WASHINGTON; DECEMBER 6, 2011

2 8:12 A.M.

3 --oOo--

4

5 MR. FISHER: Okay, let's start. So good

6 morning, everybody. I'm going to just turn it over to

7 Tracie.

8 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thanks, Robert. I

9 wanted to, first of all, being a co-Salish person, I

10 want to welcome everybody to the great Northwest. I

11 hope everybody made it across the water, for you

12 landlubbers, got across the water fine.

13 My grandfather was a member of the

14 Suquamish Tribe. So part of my family is over here at

15 Suquamish. The other part of my family is over at

16 Tulalip. And I was hoping that Chairman Forsman of the

17 Suquamish Tribe might be able to come and welcome us,

18 but he's got a very busy schedule. So he might be able

19 to stop by at some point today or at some point in the

20 three days to welcome you all here in his way. But I

21 want to welcome you at least generally to the Northwest.

22 And it's a quiet spot. And I hope you all enjoy your

23 stay here.

24 I want to go ahead and -- now, I know Dan

25 has been working with everybody on the agenda. And I

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1 want to just, you know, welcome everybody, and I'm glad

2 you could make it.

3 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Good

4 morning, everybody. Thanks for coming out for another

5 one of these events. I know it was a short break

6 between the last one, and we really did our best to get

7 the information out to you as quickly as we could.

8 It was a lot going back through all the

9 notes and making sure that we covered all the areas

10 where you guys said that you needed some additional

11 information. We got you copies of the Tribal Gaming

12 Working Group's document, and then I know Mike Hoenig

13 and his staff and Rest West have been working on those

14 comparison documents. I hope you all got those.

15 MR. FISHER: I think there may be some

16 people that didn't get them. I'm not sure. We need to

17 check.

18 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Is the

19 email not working?

20 MR. FISHER: For some reason, I sent it

21 actually twice, once as a whole, all together on

22 Thursday, and then when I -- I asked people to confirm

23 back. Some people didn't confirm back. So I sent it

24 again on Saturday, I think, in two parts. So I

25 separated the attachments into two separate messages to

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1 try to make it go through whatever filters were doing

2 it, but I think there may be still some people around

3 the table that didn't get it.

4 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: All

5 right. They're on the Web site, if you want to take a

6 look at them. We'll have to figure out a work-around

7 for this right now.

8 But in any event, I just want to thank

9 everybody for getting back here safely. And like the

10 Chairwoman said, this is just a wonderful place to be,

11 especially coming from the Northeast. This is just a

12 wonderful, wonderful great place, and I'm happy to be

13 here.

14 MR. FISHER: Okay. So the agenda for the

15 next three days was set up by our agenda planning group;

16 Mia, let's see if I remember, Mia, Christina, Leo,

17 Matthew, Dan. And it tracks pretty closely what was on

18 the meeting work plan document as a follow-up from how

19 far we got at the meeting in Rapid City. And then there

20 is an additional discussion on the agenda for this

21 morning around the concept of the risk-based approach to

22 regulations and compliance, which you can see that as

23 our first action of substantive discussion together.

24 We are scheduled to go tonight until

25 6:00. And we do have a group dinner listed on the

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1 agenda, but we don't have anything planned for tonight.

2 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yeah, I

3 was confused. I thought the one last night was tonight.

4 MR. FISHER: Yeah, it was on the agenda

5 for tonight, but it ended up getting set up for

6 yesterday, last night. So it's on the agenda, but we

7 don't have anything scheduled, set up for tonight. So

8 we can do something informally, if people want.

9 Okay. So any questions on the agenda,

10 any -- maybe what we can do, in terms of the people --

11 who didn't receive the documents? Let's just -- how

12 many people?

13 Two. Okay. Maybe we should get copies.

14 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Okay.

15 MR. FISHER: If somebody has a clean set,

16 get copies.

17 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Can we

18 email them to you?

19 MR. FISHER: I can send them again, I can

20 try to send them again, if that would help.

21 MS. THOMAS: I know Mia tried to send

22 them to me again this morning.

23 MR. FISHER: It might be something on

24 your security end. I can divide it up into smaller

25 numbers and see if I can get it through in three

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1 messages or four messages. As soon as we take a little

2 break here, I'll do that for both of you. Okay? And

3 then you can pull -- you can just pull it up on the

4 screen. Yeah, they can pull them up on the screen.

5 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: They can pull them

6 up right now, but I think we do need to figure out --

7 you can check on your end what the problem is.

8 MR. FISHER: So, Mike, are you asking for

9 their email addresses?

10 MR. HOENIG: Yeah, and I'll just send

11 each document one at a time.

12 MR. FISHER: Okay. That will get squared

13 away.

14 Where we were on our agenda, then, based

15 on the request from the group at the last meeting, is to

16 go off the record and go into a working session.

17 THE TRANSCRIPTIONIST: Off the record?

18 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yes.

19 (Working session off the record

20 taken from 8:18 to 10:46 a.m.)

21 MR. FISHER: Back on the record.

22 So we're going to pick up on our agenda.

23 We're at the topic of the discussion about the

24 risk-based approach to regulation and compliance based

25 on a question that came up about how would this work,

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1 principally from the NIGC, about how would -- how would

2 a risk-based approach work, and what's kind of the

3 connection between the regulation and the guidance end,

4 right? How much focus do we have to have on the

5 guidance-related documents.

6 Okay. So how do you want to kick off

7 this discussion?

8 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

9 we put together the questions as some general, like

10 Tracie said, food for thought, questions to get you

11 thinking of, you know, when we discussed this at the

12 last meeting, you know, your logic and thinking.

13 So we got a chance to kind of think about

14 it a little bit more, you know, what are the practical

15 applications you feel would be necessary. One point

16 that I came up with is how would the independent audits

17 be done if each individual tribe has a unique set of

18 regulations. You know, our auditors use checklists and

19 they're pretty standard for any operation, where it

20 seems like this would vary by operation to operation.

21 How would that -- like how do you envision this taking

22 place?

23 MR. McGHEE: Dan McGhee.

24 I would like just to -- so I'm sure

25 everybody at the table, we all are familiar and have

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1 experience auditing, but as far as the -- anyone with

2 experience as a specific auditor, you know, as a

3 certified auditor or an accountant or someone that can

4 maybe address how would an audit work, something like

5 this, because the auditors go in places all the time

6 without a preset checklist because they don't know, you

7 know, until they get there, what their -- because

8 everybody's rules are different. And I know you have

9 some experience.

10 MR. WILSON: I can speak to that.

11 MR. McGHEE: But is there anybody else in

12 here that has that kind of certified auditing

13 experience, professional whatever certification for it?

14 Then let's hear from Tom.

15 MR. WILSON: I do have those

16 certifications.

17 So what an auditor does when you go into

18 any entity, either a casino or business or anything, is

19 assess the internal controls that are in place. So most

20 organizations have documented internal controls, as

21 casinos do, in whatever format they're in. And then

22 essentially, you're applying a methodology to determine

23 if those controls are working as they're designed to

24 work. So for an auditor, it's pretty easy to come up

25 with an audit plan about how you're going to test those

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1 particular controls.

2 Now, it just so happens that a lot of

3 controls look alike, so the things that you test for are

4 not uncommonly different from one property to another,

5 from one business to another. That's not a particularly

6 onerous-type task.

7 And we saw this with Sarbanes-Oxley,

8 where, clearly, every public company had to get

9 certified in the country, and clearly you had many,

10 many, many auditors from many different firms, public,

11 private firms, internal auditors, that all had to assess

12 the internal controls inherent in a particular

13 organization.

14 So the guidelines that were established

15 were done to universally kind of tell people here are

16 the kind of things that you're looking for, but you as

17 an auditor have to go in and design the test and

18 actually test and conclude upon whether those controls

19 are working or not.

20 MR. CALLAGHAN: Thomas, though, when

21 we're talking about external auditors, we're talking

22 about reasonable assurance, we're talking about

23 financial statements, and we're talking about

24 materiality. That risk is going to attach to

25 materiality. Material -- most casinos are slot

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1 machines. So unless there is something materially wrong

2 with the financial statements with that, you're going to

3 see a lot of the risk assessment is going to be at a

4 much higher level.

5 And that's why I asked the question early

6 on of NIGC, what is your dog in this fight? There is

7 reasonable assurance from financial statement

8 presentation, there is reasonable assurance from a

9 regulatory compliance standpoint. And when you take a

10 look again at the NIGC's mission, you take a look at

11 they're going to go in there and see whether they do, in

12 fact, have internal controls and whether they're being

13 applied.

14 So again, that's why I mentioned before,

15 there are different types of audits. There is financial

16 audits, there is compliance audits, and I think there is

17 functional audits.

18 So I think we're mixing metaphors here

19 when we're dealing with risk, risk assessment, and how

20 we would apply these to internal controls. I think we

21 need to have established a firm set of internal

22 controls, which is what we're about, we're establishing

23 minimum internal controls, and from there auditors will

24 come in and assess risk on top of that, based on each

25 individual location.

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1 MR. WILSON: Yes.

2 MR. CALLAGHAN: So to state from a global

3 standpoint, yes, there should be some risk assessment,

4 that's great, but I think that's not what we're handling

5 here. That's why I mentioned to you before that I

6 wanted to have a conversation relative to risk.

7 MR. WILSON: And I'm not advocating -- I

8 mean, the question I'm answering is strictly how would

9 you audit controls that are different than -- that might

10 vary from organization to organization. And I think the

11 important takeaway is that that happens all the time, it

12 happens every day.

13 So to think -- you know, I don't want the

14 Commission to think that every organization has adopted

15 identical controls, and therefore they all look the same

16 and there is one checklist that's used universally. You

17 know, the checklist exists because it's an efficient

18 means to take a standard that exists and say this is

19 what we're going to audit to. But the components of

20 controls are fairly universal.

21 And there is a document that I sent out

22 to the group and I will send to you, as well, that I dug

23 up this morning that sort of talks about this idea of

24 the standards that exist, the risk that's associated

25 with not achieving these standards, and then what you

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1 would expect these controls to sort of look like in that

2 environment.

3 So the -- you know, I don't want to get

4 lost in the message that we're talking about this

5 formalized risk assessment that has to happen to get to

6 the controls. And as I mentioned before, the risks in

7 gaming are well documented. So it's not as though we

8 are trying to come up with what are the risks. I think

9 that is a known fact out there. The key is what

10 controls are you putting in place to mitigate and what

11 do those controls look like.

12 To the extent that the standards might

13 say that the controls have to include certain components

14 is absolutely appropriate, but to define down to the

15 absolute procedural level of what a control has to look

16 like, I think that's where it is going to differ, under

17 this scenario, from property to property.

18 MR. McGHEE: Well, when you say that, I

19 mean, the risks vary from property to property, too,

20 right? So who makes the decision -- who determines

21 what's the risk?

22 MR. WILSON: Well, I -- I can comment on

23 that.

24 I think this is where I think that there

25 is a little bit of fear in terms of this idea of who

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1 decides what the risks are.

2 What I am advocating and what my tribe is

3 advocating is that the NIGC's role in this process is to

4 establish the control standards, if you will, that need

5 to be in place to mitigate these risks.

6 The risks are fairly universal. There

7 are things operationally that can change the dynamics of

8 a risk and make one thing at one property riskier, if

9 you will, than another property. But the standards of

10 control are really what, it seems to me, the NIGC should

11 be focusing on, establishing those standards of control.

12 And the risks, like I say, are already

13 known. I think if you went around and asked anybody

14 that's in gaming, they could probably articulate pretty

15 well what are the general risks in this type of

16 transaction and this type of game and this type of

17 process.

18 So I don't know that there has to be a

19 lot of focus on risk identification as much as there is

20 focus on establishing the control standards that you,

21 the NIGC, think need to be in place to mitigate the

22 already recognized risks.

23 MR. McGHEE: I think the document, what

24 actually goes out should identify primarily the risk.

25 It should state the risk and that it is the tribe's

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1 responsibility to mitigate that risk.

2 So what we're doing here as a group,

3 because everybody's risk is different, is to make sure

4 Mia's risks and Jeff's risks are identified as something

5 that needs to be controlled. Not how to control it, but

6 that it needs to be controlled. And then when someone

7 comes in, whatever they've decided to do, then if it

8 would be your guys or whoever, would say, yes, I agree

9 that what you've done here does mitigate that risk or

10 fix that risk, you know, because what I'm trying -- what

11 I'm feeling is maybe if we go this way, then what would

12 NIGC's role be? Whereas it used to be they would come

13 in and they had a checklist and they would check it off

14 and they could say, well, they made all the checklists

15 so we feel good about them, they're good. You know what

16 I mean? If they did come in and didn't do an audit

17 checklist, maybe there is a need for an in-depth audit.

18 You know, it was kind of a tool for you guys.

19 If it goes this way, then it kind of

20 reconditions your whole thought and your whole staff

21 setup in a way to who do we need on board to regulate

22 it. Are we going to have to have more auditors,

23 actually, on board to go in first, or reviewers. I

24 don't know how you hire them now.

25 And that's a concern you should have,

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1 because if this were to go and the tribes bought into

2 it, then you're going to have a responsibility now to

3 figure out how to make it work. And it can work, but I

4 think we do have to have a frank decision about what

5 your role would be or what a tribe would expect your

6 role to be, you know? Like from my standpoint, and what

7 you would expect us to do us a tribe. You know what I

8 mean?

9 If you're going to say, and I'm not

10 advocating one way or another, but if you're going to

11 say, well, if this is the case, then you need to have a

12 risk analysis performed by whoever so we make sure you

13 did that. You know what I mean? Whether we liked it or

14 not or what not. But it would be better to know that

15 that's where -- because at the end of the day, Rest is

16 going to be the one in this. You know what I mean?

17 So what are your -- you know, what would

18 make you feel more comfortable if this passed? You know

19 what I mean? Whether it would be popular or not.

20 MR. FISHER: Rest, do you want to answer

21 that now or do you want to hear the rest of these --

22 MR. WEST: Well, they can go ahead.

23 MR. FISHER: Let's just do Brian, Michele

24 and Matthew.

25 MR. CALLAGHAN: We have auditors this

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1 week that are out at my Hartford property. They're

2 doing a MICS review. They're qualified to do that. I

3 would think, then, that NIGC would be satisfied with a

4 letter, similar to what they do in Nevada, they require

5 outside CPA firms to sign off and submit that to the

6 gaming control board. So CPA firms are also looking to

7 mitigate risk, as well.

8 So I would think it would make the NIGC's

9 job easier for those that can do that, and again, we're

10 talking about different levels of financials and who

11 must do what, you know, again, you need to stratify this

12 into -- if we can submit a letter saying we did MICS

13 testing and submit that to NIGC relative to our Class II

14 operation, I think that should be satisfactory. Again,

15 that's just my suggestion. And then you could

16 concentrate on your risk relative to that, and that

17 would be those that may not have the financial ability

18 or infrastructure to be able to do that on their own.

19 That's where Rest would be more beneficial, I think.

20 MR. McGHEE: Which is required now,

21 right? It's required if you have an external CPA come

22 in and do a compliance review of the Minimum Internal

23 Control Standard, which would be a different Minimum

24 Internal Control Standard. I imagine the cost of what

25 you're going to pay your outside auditor may go up as a

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1 tribe, because now they don't have just this one little

2 standard to go by, now they're going to have to actually

3 look at the risk.

4 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: That's

5 one of the points we were making, is does this add

6 additional cost. And you guys can explain this to me

7 better. I'm assuming there is a handful of independent

8 auditors that go out there and they probably have a lot

9 of experience and they go to multiple facilities and

10 they know what to look for, where this would require

11 that they create a specific plan for a property.

12 Correct? I mean, that would actually pass that cost

13 along to the tribe.

14 MR. FISHER: So we've got Michele and

15 then Matthew and then Leo and then Jeff.

16 MS. STACONA: I just want to make sure

17 that you know those OMB circulars were done for the

18 federal agency. And we need to understand that we are

19 all sovereign, independent tribal nations. And I hope

20 we leave it at that and leave it to the tribal

21 governments to accept these circulars out there or not.

22 I think you're delving into a much bigger area than I

23 think the NIGC has control over.

24 So I think some of this needs to just be

25 decided upon by your tribal government. And I think

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1 what's out there in the rules right now for NIGC is

2 adequate enough. You get the requirements of submitting

3 your financials and your comment from your auditors. I

4 think that should suffice right now, and I think that's

5 working. I don't think we need to put any more

6 standards or anything more in there to make it more

7 complicated. It works right now. Don't ruin it.

8 MR. FISHER: Matthew.

9 MR. MORGAN: I'm going to kind of tag on

10 what Michele said.

11 The way IGRA was written -- and I think

12 we all have to put that in the back of our minds, is

13 we're operating off statute. Tribes are the primary

14 regulator in Class II. NIGC, you can take a monitoring

15 role.

16 The role for your auditors I really don't

17 see changing, because it's still up to the tribe to

18 decide how you do your internal, whether it's a function

19 of your government, whether it's your regulatory body,

20 whether you contract that service out to some other

21 outside agency to do that. You still have external

22 auditors coming in, they still have the ability to do

23 agreed-upon procedures, they have the ability to do

24 internal audit sampling when they come in. You still

25 have NIGC auditors coming in and looking over it.

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1 The difference will be you won't have one

2 way to do it any more, you have the ability to actually

3 design your internal controls that fit your operation

4 better, which, in my mind, actually does a better job,

5 because I don't have to fit into a broad,

6 cookie-cutter-based approach that may or may not

7 actually get to the risk at my property, but it is good

8 enough for me to pass a cursory, standardized,

9 high-level MICS audit.

10 And then I know we moved on to cost.

11 One, there is an argument to be made that it's a cost

12 associated with doing business, but you already have to

13 pay for that, especially the auditors that come in.

14 And I think, as Tom pointed out, this is

15 not a new concept in the auditing world. The auditors

16 do this every day in every other industry. We're just

17 trying to apply this to our Indian gaming industry on an

18 approach of how that works within our paradigm. So

19 shifting that responsibility to the tribe to come up

20 with, I understand that right there is worrisome. It

21 worries me as an Indian, it worries me as a regulator.

22 But that being said, that's one of the

23 reasons we stress that you look at guidance along with

24 that, because those guidance documents would serve as a

25 safe harbor provision that says tribes, if you do it

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1 this way, NIGC is okay with you doing it this way.

2 We're just changing the focus to say if you want to do

3 it some other way, you're able to. And then I'm

4 replying upon those industry professionals to say is

5 it -- have you mitigated your risk in a way that we feel

6 comfortable. And that's both your internal, your

7 external, and the NIGC auditors coming in who have that

8 professional expertise.

9 MR. McGHEE: Those guidance documents

10 should come from NIGC.

11 MR. MORGAN: I think they should give an

12 example of a safe harbor that they're good with.

13 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: And,

14 Matt, I appreciate you bringing up the whole issue of

15 the cost to the tribes, because we have to be cognizant

16 of the fact that there are some tribes out there that,

17 you know, they're under huge financial pressure. And

18 gaming commissions are a target for cuts. I've seen it

19 happen. They're an area.

20 So we don't want to do anything that's

21 going to -- I mean, we always have to be very mindful of

22 how does this affect the poorest tribe or the tribe

23 that's just -- you know, they have a gaming operation

24 that is making a few bucks. And if there is any

25 additional cost, it's something we need to be wary of.

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1 MR. MORGAN: But that's the importance of

2 a guidance document, that you have a safe harbor. And

3 that's the importance of having training and technical

4 assistance from your agency to go out and make sure that

5 tribes do possess those skills and, if they don't, have

6 some resources out there to call upon them to make sure

7 that they are meeting standards that are required.

8 MR. FISHER: Leo, Jeff, Tom.

9 MR. CULLOO: It seems to me sometimes we

10 rely too much on a checklist as a way to validate

11 compliance. To me, it's just one small tool, because

12 any checklist I've ever seen from whatever regulatory

13 body, there are always parts that aren't applicable.

14 Sometimes that confuses the person doing the review,

15 does this pertain to me or not.

16 I think the checks are there. We have

17 our external audit. You're going to send them your

18 internal controls ahead of time, they're going to review

19 it, and they're going to come up with their own way of

20 validating it with their own checklist.

21 Internally, at least from an operation

22 point, my tribal gaming agency, they have their own

23 checklist they use. They put together, based on risk,

24 what are the important things.

25 To give you an example, the state, who

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1 regulates Class III, they'll come in and do things like

2 send an agent out to check incident reports, spend a

3 whole day doing all that. And that's billable hours.

4 What's the risk? Okay, so someone didn't write an

5 incident report. So internally, I think, the regulatory

6 agencies are better able to put together their own

7 checklists.

8 And as far as cost, I don't see the

9 additional cost to the tribe. External audits are

10 required. That's not going to change. And I don't see

11 internally where it's going to require a great deal more

12 of personnel to put together checklists based on what

13 you've developed internally and do your audits against

14 those.

15 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: We can

16 ask Rest, how do you feel this would affect, you know,

17 your staff?

18 MR. CULLOO: Because that's the concern.

19 How does a field agent come in from NIGC, how do they

20 check compliance. Well, to me, they would have to go to

21 the Tribal Gaming Regulator Agency and say, hey, let me

22 see your -- what's your compliance program? How do you

23 audit your compliance? Do you have a checklist? What's

24 your methodology? And I think it's against that you

25 would say is that reasonable and is that prudent, does

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1 that meet the minimum standards that any rational person

2 would do.

3 MR. FISHER: Do you want me keep going

4 around? Do you want to think about it? Do you want to

5 respond, or do you want to keep going around? They want

6 feedback.

7 MR. WEST: Well, I'm still confused. You

8 know, the TGWG presented a whole package. And we

9 haven't seen the checklist part of it yet. In the

10 July 28th, 2011 submission there was supposed to be a

11 checklist to be provided pretty soon. So I'm still

12 confused about what we're supposed to be looking at,

13 whether it's the standards themselves, which is maybe

14 that many pages (indicates), or does that include the

15 guidance. I hear now that we're supposed to develop the

16 guidance.

17 So I don't know what the benefit of -- I

18 mean, you know, it seems like it's a package deal. In

19 fact, I think if you look at the submission on

20 July 28th, Vice-Chairwoman Bryan says this is a whole

21 package. I forgot the wording. It's down here about

22 the core of these documents or what they're submitting.

23 So it's not just these little standards. The standards

24 say you've got to develop -- you know, look at the risk

25 and develop controls to mitigate those risks.

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1 I have audited and been involved with

2 many gaming operations and many tribal regulatory

3 authorities from Florida to Washington state, from

4 California to Connecticut, probably in excess of 75

5 Tribal Gaming Regulatory Authorities. And I will

6 honestly say, in my opinion, there is a significant

7 number of those who are ineffective in their oversight

8 of tribal gaming.

9 So to me, and that would be maybe, if you

10 will, the target audience that this committee is trying

11 to develop standards for, you should -- you know, to me,

12 the committee should be developing standards that they

13 can hand to those type of organizations for ineffective

14 Tribal Gaming Regulatory Authorities and then they can

15 take it from there.

16 Again, there are only Minimum Internal

17 Control Standards. And those, the operations in here,

18 some of them have a lot more expertise, they have

19 developed these SOPs that are that thick (indicate) with

20 all these operational procedures that the gaming

21 operation should follow. But my concern is the smaller

22 operations are those who are -- you know, I don't know

23 what the level of background of the individuals here on

24 committee are, but if you've only worked for one tribe,

25 you've only been involved in one situation in tribal

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1 gaming, some of you -- I don't know how much experience

2 with various types of TGRAs these representative in the

3 room have, but I can tell you there is -- you know,

4 there is a lot of exposure out there to some of these

5 operations who are, in my opinion, ineffectively

6 regulated.

7 MR. FISHER: Okay. So where we are is

8 Jeff, Tom, Robin, Matthew.

9 MR. WHEATLEY: I was just going to

10 piggyback on what Matthew and Leo said regarding the

11 costs incurred by tribes. I, too, don't see it as an

12 additional cost. These audits by independent firms are

13 already happening on a regular basis. I see reports

14 where they're giving us guidance on strengthening our

15 own system of internal controls, where they feel they

16 see a risk and they're offering their expertise.

17 A lot of these firms, if they're a

18 credible firm out there, they have a lot of gaming

19 expertise themselves, so they're well versed in gaming

20 operations. And I think they tailor their audits based

21 on each individual property, based on our own operation.

22 So I don't see it as an additional cost,

23 it's just a different set of regulations that they're

24 going to be auditing, too, and ensuring that the systems

25 that we have in place are strong enough to mitigate

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1 those risks.

2 MR. FISHER: Tom.

3 MR. WILSON: I don't -- I don't disagree

4 with your observation, but I think that same observation

5 exists in any environment. We saw the same thing with

6 Sarbanes-Oxley. And when you have to take thousands of

7 companies in different businesses across the country,

8 and indeed the world, and say, well, now you have to

9 have -- you have to meet this new standard, clearly

10 there were some companies that could invest millions of

11 dollars to come up with something that they felt met the

12 criteria, there were other companies that did not have

13 millions of dollars. And whatever regulations derive

14 have to be flexible enough to allow for the different

15 types of organizations to meet the objective.

16 And you know, I think the -- the issue

17 for me and our tribe has always been with the Minimum

18 Internal Controls, that they are so rigid that they

19 become obsolete and they require a standard -- they give

20 a certainty of comfort that really doesn't exist by the

21 Minimum Internal Controls.

22 So what happens when you come in and do a

23 checklist audit of those Minimum Internal Controls and

24 you say well, yes, you're in compliance, I can come in

25 and do a risk assessment of that same organization and

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1 come up with a totally different picture of what is at

2 risk in that organization that never got touched upon by

3 the Minimum Internal Controls.

4 And oftentimes what happens with the

5 Minimum Internal Controls is that is the level that gets

6 adopted and nothing more. And really, there is a whole

7 aspect of the operation that never gets taken into

8 account when we're talking about risk. So I think there

9 is a false sense of security sometimes when we -- when

10 we set up these minimum levels of control.

11 But the other point I want to make is

12 that every organization deals with these issues of how

13 do we manage our business. And casinos are businesses,

14 no different than anything else. There are public

15 casinos that have to comply with Sarbanes-Oxley.

16 So it's -- this is not an unknown in the

17 casino world. It's an unknown in Indian gaming. And I

18 think it's important that we keep that in context, that

19 there is an educational aspect to all of this that NIGC

20 could be incredibly helpful with to tribes, in terms of

21 developing and strengthening internal controls.

22 Our issue has always been that if a

23 Minimum Internal Control says I have to have three

24 people do X, and if I know that I don't need to have

25 three people to do X and, by creation of an automated

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1 control and a manual control, you know, I'm down to now

2 that I can have two people doing this, I don't want to

3 have to be having the argument that all of the common

4 sense goes out the window. And what we're arguing is

5 the fact that the MICS says you have to have three

6 people. We don't care whether that makes sense or not,

7 or we don't care if you've figured out a better way to

8 do it or a more efficient or effective way, you have to

9 have three people, and if you don't have three people

10 you're not in compliance.

11 That is my tribe's biggest complaint

12 about Minimum Internal Controls, is the locking you into

13 this control that may not be realistic or may be so

14 outdated that you're past that.

15 So from my perspective and my tribe's

16 perspective, it's really more about opening up a broader

17 framework with which a tribe can grow as to the Minimum

18 Internal Controls as they currently stand in the way

19 that they are designed and what you have to go through

20 to try and add on to those controls. There is really no

21 incentive to take it any further than it is.

22 So those Minimum Internal Controls

23 become, in my opinion, the maximum internal controls and

24 nothing really evolves in Indian country beyond that.

25 And that would be, you know, the concern

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1 that we would have in any regulatory scheme, even within

2 our own tribe, that we do not develop a control

3 structure or regulation structure that becomes

4 unworkable or that the operators of our casino can't

5 work within to achieve a control structure. And

6 oftentimes, we allow them -- we set the standard, but we

7 allow them to come up with the way in which they're

8 going to achieve that. And then we audit that on the

9 back end to ensure that the control objective is being

10 met. And if it is, we're okay. We're less concerned

11 about the you got to have three people. Why? Well,

12 because it says you've got to have three people. We're

13 concerned that the risk is being mitigated.

14 And if I can just diverge to one quick

15 thing and give you one little flavor of this, there is a

16 document that I sent everybody here. And as you know,

17 I'm trying to come up with -- pull things out of

18 industry to help talk about this concept of controls and

19 risk.

20 But you know, in every business there are

21 business cycles, things in the accounting world, what we

22 call business cycles, processes. And guidance documents

23 were created extensively for the Sarbanes-Oxley world to

24 comply. And the overriding concept in Sarbanes-Oxley

25 was that you have a standard of internal controls. So

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1 I'm just going to read you a quick example, one that

2 doesn't have to do specifically with gaming but it has

3 to do with cash receipts.

4 And one of these standards that's listed

5 is all cash receipts must be restrictively endorsed and

6 secured immediately upon receipt. That's the standard

7 that's in place out there.

8 Now, corresponding to that, there is an

9 identification of a risk if that standard isn't met.

10 And the risk is the cash receipts may be lost and/or

11 misappropriated. Well, we would probably all agree with

12 that.

13 What it doesn't say is here is what your

14 control has to look like. That is what is left up to

15 the individual entity to determine; well, how am I going

16 to meet that standard? So in that same sense, what it

17 appears to me that the tribal working group document is

18 addressing is it is really outlining a whole bunch of

19 standards.

20 The risk is inherent, but I think it

21 could be more specifically stated, that here is the risk

22 that can occur if you don't meet this standard. And

23 then it's focusing on a broader contingency that the

24 guidance document gives you different paths, things of

25 how you can meet that internal control standard.

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1 So to the extent that in one of your

2 questions that you had on the twelve-question document,

3 the very first one dealing with -- you know, under IGRA,

4 NIGC's authority that you have to develop standards, I

5 guess from my perspective it would be that yes, you do

6 need to develop the standards of internal controls. You

7 do not need to develop the look and feel of the internal

8 control.

9 MR. FISHER: Robin, then Matthew.

10 MS. LASH: With regard to the question

11 where we are with the checklist, I apologize that those

12 haven't been submitted. And I spoke with them last

13 week, and they are working on the checklist. And I

14 think it was promised as a package, you know, the

15 regulations revised, then the guidance documents and the

16 checklist. So they will be coming, and I apologize for

17 the delay in that.

18 And I think when you pointed out the

19 small tribes specifically and the tribes without big

20 budgets, those are the ones that really we were looking

21 to when we prepared the guidance documents, as Matt

22 mentioned, a safe harbor for the tribes that don't have

23 the large employee staff to attempt that themselves. At

24 least by following these minimum guidelines, they will

25 be in compliance. And we will be submitting the

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1 checklists.

2 MR. FISHER: Matthew?

3 MR. MORGAN: My point, it's probably a

4 little bit higher level policy-wise, when we talked

5 about, and kind of tagging on to Tom's a little bit,

6 procedurally based on the current MICS, I always think

7 of it you have to look at the role. And if we put a

8 person in the room, you know, in the middle of this

9 table right here, one side is the tribe and one side is

10 your external CPAs and one side is NIGC. In the past,

11 it seems like NIGC wanted to play everybody's role and

12 make sure everybody was doing it the way they wanted to

13 do it instead of relying upon the tribe or your external

14 auditors and your NIGC agency to try to work together to

15 make sure that all those risks were mitigated. And I

16 know sometimes I question them, are you focused on your

17 role?

18 Your role set forth in IGRA, and I had

19 Kathi look it up, 2706(b)(10), you know, it says you're

20 required to produce standards. And it goes back to your

21 question one, promoting the federal standards, but it

22 says and guidelines necessary to implement the statute.

23 IGRA thought about you being able to

24 implement guidelines, they're not standards but

25 guidelines, in your role to assist tribes. You know,

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1 when Rest talked about, you know, that particular tribe,

2 it seems to me that, you know, depending on what your

3 role is, you create your environment, your culture. I

4 would ask you to look at your staff, how many auditors,

5 whether that's financial auditors, compliance auditors,

6 IT auditors, you have on staff versus law enforcement,

7 investigative folks. What type of culture are you

8 putting out there and what does your allocation of

9 resources say to people? What is your focus?

10 Currently, the makeup to me doesn't say

11 I'm focused on auditing risk based, I'm focused on

12 providing technical assistance and training to help you

13 meet that.

14 That would be my question going back, if

15 you say there are a significant number out there that

16 are not up to whatever that line is, is that NIGC's

17 opinion? Is that your opinion after you looked at what

18 the tribe done and your CPA reports that we're required

19 to give you through external audit? If that's still

20 your opinion, what did you do that next step to help

21 them achieve that standard? Was there a next step taken

22 in that case to help them achieve a level that you feel

23 like is meeting the norms to protect the assets of the

24 tribe?

25 And thirdly, if it's still an issue with

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1 a particular tribe, you know, that is why the statute

2 gives you that enforcement role after you went through

3 all these steps.

4 When you re-allocate some of your

5 resources and create a culture or an environment to say

6 this is what we want to do, we want to make sure that

7 tribes, primary regulator, it's your job to do. CPA,

8 you're supposed to come in, external auditors help you.

9 NIGC, we're supposed to come in and help you doing

10 compliance audits and coming in performing technical

11 assistance. And if all of those break down and fail,

12 and there will be instances where that happens, you

13 know, sometimes no matter what procedures or controls

14 you put in place, you have failure sometime, you have to

15 go back and reevaluate why you failed. But one of the

16 tools in your bag that the statute gives you is that

17 enforcement.

18 So instead of going out and trying to

19 write a broad rule to try to fix an issue with a tribe,

20 sometimes you do have to take that approach and say you

21 know what? Maybe enforcement is proper here because

22 we've tried to talk to you, we've tried to train you,

23 we've tried to give you guidance documents. None of

24 this has helped yet. This is where we're at. We think

25 this rises to imminent harm and this meets the necessary

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1 requirements.

2 And I know that's not where you want to

3 get to. I don't think anybody wants to get there. But

4 sometimes that is where we get to, is people are not

5 meeting the standard that's required that you set forth.

6 All we're asking is that you accept an approach where I

7 get to decide what my risk is, but I still need buy-in

8 from my CP and external operators, I need buy-in from my

9 operation, and I still need buy-in from you guys. I

10 just don't have to do it in the exact way that the NIGC

11 MICS prescribes and, going back to Tom's point, that I

12 need three people to do it.

13 MR. FISHER: Leo.

14 MR. CULLOO: Two points, first to Tom,

15 what Matt just said, the requirement that you have to

16 have X amount to do this.

17 You talk about costs to the tribes.

18 Well, there is a direct cost on the regulatory side,

19 where that has a direct impact on cost. And maybe there

20 is a way to do it through automation or some type of

21 system to reduce that cost.

22 The second point to Matt's thing is,

23 Rest, earlier you said, I think your words, I may be

24 wrong, there is a lot of tribes or quite a few tribes --

25 MR. WEST: A significant number I think

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1 is what I said.

2 MR. CULLOO: But you already have rules,

3 checklists. So if they're not adhering to them, this

4 approach you're taking is really not going to have an

5 impact on them anyway. So it sounds to me like it's

6 enforcement or going in and giving them guidance and

7 saying, look, you guys, your program is totally

8 inadequate. We're going to take enforcement action

9 unless you do something to tighten up your program.

10 So the fact that people aren't really

11 adhering to them right now, it has nothing to do with

12 what we're doing, because they're not adhering to the

13 checklist you already have in place.

14 MR. FISHER: Go ahead, Brian.

15 MR. CALLAGHAN: I have to second what

16 Matthew says. I've said this, I've said it to my only

17 tribal council. I believe the NIGC should take a look

18 at their mission or how they apply their mission,

19 because I think what Matthew said is spot on.

20 Rest, no matter what we write here today,

21 no matter how much guidance we provide, you're going to

22 still end up, most likely, with the same scenario that

23 you're looking at right now. Maybe some will do a

24 little bit better.

25 And that's what I think, is when I take a

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1 look at the field offices, you've got investigators.

2 Well, what are they investigating? You've got auditors.

3 What are they auditing?

4 I think more of an audit approach -- you

5 know where your risk is. You've already done the risk

6 assessment, Rest. You're there. Let us finish this

7 out, maybe get some guidance documents and things like

8 that.

9 And here is your opportunity, Daniel. I

10 mean, you could very well put a great polish on a

11 fabulous apple that's out there and we'll get you a

12 statue or something. I don't know. It is seconded and

13 thirded. That's exactly what I've been trying to -- and

14 I'm glad I've got an opportunity right now to make a

15 record of that.

16 MR. FISHER: All right. So do you want

17 to respond back to any of this?

18 MR. WEST: Yeah, I'll take a shot at it.

19 There is so many comments, I'll probably miss half of

20 them.

21 Back to SOX, those are public companies.

22 And probably that works better for some of these casinos

23 that have their 10-Ks and their auditing and they're a

24 publically traded company. But again, I'm back to the

25 small properties. And there is a lot of medium-sized

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1 properties that I don't think are doing an effective

2 job.

3 As far as the MICS being hard and fast,

4 they're not. If there is a control in there that says

5 it takes three people, you as the commissioner have the

6 ability to grant a variance. Matthew Morgan was just

7 granted a variance for a surveillance standard that he

8 sent in. His compliance division, I don't know who it

9 was, requested a variance from a certain standard.

10 I don't know where everybody thinks that

11 the MICS are that hard and fast. There is alternative

12 procedures, there is ways to develop alternative

13 procedures and other options to get around this stuff.

14 So this thing of three people doing this and three

15 people doing this is totally -- you know, I don't think

16 it's realistic when you look at MICS.

17 NIGC can go out there and audit, but we

18 only have a limited staff. There is 300 and how many

19 tribes? It's unreasonable to think we can go out there

20 and take a look at all -- even the ones that may have,

21 you know, a lower level of oversight, regulatory

22 oversight. So I think that's pretty unrealistic, also.

23 Maybe we could get started on it.

24 But when you don't have hard-and-fast

25 rules, you're also going to get into kind of a

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1 negotiation, a litigation situation with, well, we're

2 doing this control, but we think we should be doing

3 this. So I think what I'm just saying, there should be

4 a basic minimum set of standards out there for those

5 types of operations.

6 You know, again, this is not SOX

7 companies. We're talking about small tribal gaming

8 commissions. And if the tribal council changes

9 tomorrow, your whole commission may change tomorrow. I

10 mean, I think it's -- you know, I think it's unrealistic

11 to apply this to some of these operations whose

12 regulatory oversight is not what it should be.

13 Another thing I want to point out, it's

14 probably bad to go on the record but I will --

15 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Just to

16 let you know that Rest is speaking as to his experience

17 as an auditor, not the position of the Commission.

18 MR. WEST: Yeah, exactly. I will

19 probably be without a job tomorrow.

20 You know, people -- you're talking about

21 audits and whatever. There are several different types.

22 You have your financial audit, you have your AUP, you go

23 out and engage a CPA firm to do your AUP, which is your

24 MICS. The financial auditors also look at the other

25 parts of your operation; your payroll, your hotel or

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1 whatever. They look at the risk. They did an internal

2 control questionnaire, internal control checklist for

3 all of the operations.

4 I always recommend to the Tribal Gaming

5 Regulatory Authorities that once they get their gaming

6 audits, you know, down, they need to start looking at

7 payroll, they need to start looking at purchasing, they

8 needed to start looking at other aspects. Not many of

9 them do.

10 You know, part of the basis for my

11 personal comment about the level of oversight is a lot

12 of the Tribal Gaming Regulatory Authorities, their

13 internal audit function is very suspect. A lot of them

14 have to go out and hire outside firms to do their

15 internal audit.

16 Another thing is don't rely on your CPA

17 firms. They will tell you right up that they're not

18 going to find all instances of fraud. They're not there

19 doing a fraud audit. The same applies to your AUPs.

20 They might miss something, they might miss some big

21 things.

22 The level of professionalism in the CPA

23 firms is very varied. There is some that do a very poor

24 job, there is some that do a great job.

25 We even see differences between the

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1 offices of Big Four firms, how good they do their job.

2 We know that this office over here, typically, does a

3 poorer job than the Vegas office, say, of a Big Four

4 outfit. So don't sit back and rest on your CPA firm to

5 disclose fraud, internal control violations, or

6 whatever.

7 So again, MICS are not hard and fast.

8 Anybody in here that is a tribal gaming authority can

9 obtain a variance.

10 MR. FISHER: So we just have to do a

11 little time check. I know there is cards up. By my

12 clock, it's a little after 11:30. On our agenda at

13 11:30 we are scheduled for public comment. I don't know

14 if anybody has signed up for public comment. So do you

15 want to -- and we're scheduled to break for lunch at

16 noon. So do you want to check on the public comment

17 right now or do you want to keep going?

18 MR. CALLAGHAN: I just want to make one

19 statement for the record, as well.

20 Mr. West spoke openly and honestly, and

21 it's greatly appreciated. And I think everything he

22 said was factual and everything was objective out of

23 him. And it was greatly appreciated. I support his

24 opening up as he did.

25 MR. WEST: Well, good. Maybe you can

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1 hire me when I get fired.

2 MR. McGHEE: I want to hear his issues

3 with it, because, like he says, when he goes back to the

4 office, that's going to be his issue. So if we can

5 somehow as a group figure out how to address that issue,

6 which I take from NIGC's point of view he's going to be

7 one of your guys, you know, so I need to know what he's

8 worried about when it comes to, okay, if they did these

9 and they go pass this like they are, I just have a real

10 issue about how I'm going to do my job effectively and

11 feel like I'm doing a good job.

12 That way, we have the opportunity to help

13 him understand our position.

14 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: And

15 that's one of the reasons why we want him here, is

16 because, like Brian is saying, Rest can articulate very

17 well some of the issues that are out there. It doesn't

18 mean it's the standard, you know, we see everyday, but

19 some of the challenges that are out there. So it's

20 important that this group kind of understand those. And

21 I do appreciate him raising those issues.

22 MR. WEST: I'm still confused about what

23 the TAC committee is recommending. It goes from a

24 complete package to just the standard. So I don't know

25 how we can address what you're recommending if we're not

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1 sure about what you're recommending.

2 MR. McGHEE: Well, we put on the record

3 we recommended this with guidance documents. That was

4 put on record, public comment, that we only support the

5 regs as they are written if accompanying, not these, but

6 accompanying guidance documents were provided to support

7 the regs. We didn't say they had to be these but they

8 could be.

9 MR. FISHER: Okay. Let's take the cards

10 that are up. I'm not sure who was first, Matthew or

11 Tom.

12 MR. MORGAN: I was first.

13 MR. FISHER: You're up, then.

14 MR. MORGAN: I kind of want to address

15 some of your thoughts. I agree with everything Brian

16 said; I appreciate candor.

17 One of our ideas from the Tribal Gaming

18 Work Group, not from TAC, but the Tribal Gaming Work

19 Group perspective was we did want to shift your focus --

20 you know, going through that process, I'm not for sure

21 how, again, your job changes in a broad sense. Some of

22 the details may change, but in a broad sense, your role

23 is still your same role that you always played working

24 in conjunction, again, with the external auditors, your

25 internal auditors and the tribe. Just like I think Tom

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1 said, you know, a lot of times these are not minimum,

2 they turn out to be maximum, because whoever has that

3 ability within your tribe to approve your TICS. You

4 know, you get political pressure, you get operational

5 pressure, you get pressure from the outside people. Why

6 are you doing this because tribe B, C, D isn't doing

7 that? Why do you want to do that?

8 That innovation is stymied. To shift

9 that mindset to say yes, it is available to get a

10 variance, but we really hope that you do this, A, B, C,

11 D, E, because that's what your MICS said, this is what

12 we want you to do. And if you step outside of it, we

13 may bless it, we may not, but we're given you our

14 thought on the subject of what it should be.

15 It changes your mindset of how you

16 approach it, because suddenly you're not being a part of

17 the group, you're being one of the minorities because

18 I've asked for a variance. Why did I ask for a variance

19 and Jeff's tribe didn't ask for a variance, Jason's

20 tribe didn't ask for a variance. What made it

21 different?

22 It's available, but there is a stigma out

23 there that goes along with that big time. We're asking

24 you to shift your approach and say you know what? We

25 are stating from the Commission there is plenty of ways

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1 to do that. If your guidance document that we're

2 suggesting NIGC adopt on this, if it is very procedural

3 in nature, prescriptive in nature and it goes back to

4 being -- and that makes you guys feel comfortable and

5 this is your safe harbor for tribes, that's where you

6 guys are. And you can tell tribes out there, if you

7 want to be in our good graces, you do it exactly like

8 this.

9 I hope you don't do it that way, I hope

10 there is some give-and-take on these guidance documents,

11 but you do have that authority, that's where you feel

12 comfortable. We're asking you to change your mindset to

13 going from it's very procedurally based to why you can

14 do it differently, change from we prefer you do it this

15 way to one of there is many ways to do it and this is

16 but one way to do it.

17 That allows tribes to be innovative, that

18 allows tribes to take advantage of technology, and that

19 encourages, that puts out there from I think the

20 Commission itself's perspective that we encourage this,

21 we want this industry to grow, get better and take

22 advantage of some of these innovations out there that we

23 can. And it does not have to be so prescriptive,

24 because we welcome that idea.

25 Right now, that is not the thought that

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1 goes out to Indian country, that variances are welcomed.

2 That is not what I think, at least in Oklahoma, that I

3 see, that people are welcome to do that.

4 MR. FISHER: Tom.

5 MR. WILSON: I would second that. And of

6 course, I have to speak more from a Class III than a

7 Class II, but I can say that, with absolute certainty,

8 that in the state of Arizona, variances to the MICS,

9 which Arizona has adopted the NIGC MICS as our

10 (inaudible) the wording that you may adopt something as

11 long as it is more stringent than the minimum is a real

12 problem, because this idea of more stringent than is

13 difficult to overcome.

14 And you know, the example that I continue

15 to bring forth to this group is that in MICS, you know,

16 there is a surveillance requirement that all activity

17 must be logged. Well, maybe I don't really need to log

18 all activity and I should be logging certain kinds of

19 activity. But it's difficult for me to make the case

20 that anything less than all is more stringent. And so,

21 you know, we end up in these kinds of conversations.

22 The other thing, and I think that you

23 point out, what I hear you saying, Rest, is that there

24 are tribes out there that do a very poor job of meeting

25 the current minimums or the proposed minimums, or

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1 whatever we're operating under as the case may be. So

2 how in the world, if they -- if they can't meet that,

3 how is the expectation that they're going to meet

4 something that's even viewed as less structured or

5 controlled or rigid or what not?

6 And I think that's a valid -- a valid

7 point. But I would get back to what -- I don't know if

8 it was Matthew or whoever said that it doesn't speak

9 well of the entire process right now if, in fact, there

10 are tribes that aren't meeting the minimums. That's a

11 bigger problem. But I don't know that, from an industry

12 standpoint, that should determine the direction that you

13 take in creating regulations. To me, you should be

14 focusing on those exceptions and figuring out why that's

15 the case.

16 You know, running a casino is a business.

17 And I -- you know, when I bring up the SOX stuff, it's

18 not to say that that should apply to Indian country. It

19 should not. SOX was very expensive in this country and

20 a lot of wasted effort was part of that. I'm merely

21 just trying to address the questions of these things

22 have been dealt with, they just haven't been dealt with

23 in Indian country.

24 But I'm really most concerned about the

25 fact that if there are tribes out there that aren't

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1 meeting the minimums and NIGC is aware of that fact,

2 then why is the focus not on correcting those tribes and

3 getting them up to where they need to be as opposed to

4 developing a regulatory structure that penalizes

5 everybody because of the performance of, you know, a

6 subset.

7 And you can speak more authoritatively

8 than I on what that subset is or isn't. But it seems to

9 me inherent in a tribe adopting gaming is the idea that

10 they have to adopt a level of control to run a casino.

11 And any operators will tell you that they do not operate

12 a casino any different from, generally, one jurisdiction

13 to another, that there are inherent controls that the

14 operators understand and adopt in the process.

15 But it seems to me that if the regulatory

16 side is flawed at a particular tribe, then that's --

17 that focus clearly is within NIGC's jurisdiction to

18 address that. And so my question would be more of why

19 haven't we brought that tribe or tribes up to the level

20 of the minimum as opposed to trying to make the

21 regulations fit the lowest performer.

22 MR. FISHER: Brian.

23 MR. CALLAGHAN: You've got the pilot

24 program. When people demonstrated that they could do

25 the backgrounds, I think part of it was due to the fact

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1 that you couldn't handle all the paper, be that as it

2 may, but you do have a pilot program. That addresses

3 those that have demonstrated the core competencies to be

4 able to do the backgrounds.

5 So take it from what Tom is just saying,

6 why don't we come up with a new pilot program? And

7 then, if that works, expand it, expand it. Then you can

8 deal with those that aren't doing the backgrounds

9 correctly or not doing their audits correctly, a

10 different methodology.

11 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: You want

12 a ten-year pilot program, also? We're working on fixing

13 that.

14 MR. FISHER: Jason.

15 MR. RAMOS: I think these ideas about

16 risk analysis in tribal gaming as an industry aren't

17 going away. I think that if it's not the NIGC, you will

18 see it on the IRS. As a matter of fact, in California,

19 that's what we're already seeing.

20 Originally in 2007, it was a single

21 document with a checklist, and in 2009, when they did a

22 whole series of audits, the checklist had grown to be 10

23 to 15 pages. And before when they just wanted a

24 framework of a risk analysis, now they're looking for,

25 the next time they audit, a real risk analysis, a real

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1 living document that you go and readdress every year.

2 So I think whether or not it happens on

3 NIGC's side, risk analysis in tribal gaming is going to

4 be a reality in the future.

5 MR. FISHER: All right. So Dan and Rest,

6 do you have anything else?

7 MR. WEST: I mean, for the (inaudible)

8 Nation, the Chickasaw, I think they would take minimum

9 standards and do a risk-based analysis. They're going

10 to expand their level of control ten times over what the

11 MICS or I would expect them to.

12 I'm trying to advocate for the operations

13 out there that are not effective in their oversight.

14 And I'm sorry that -- I mean, I would -- I would think

15 that some of the other members of the committee have

16 these types of experiences. Maybe not. Maybe everybody

17 is just working with one organization. But that's not

18 been my experience.

19 MR. McGHEE: Are they not effective

20 because of lack of funds or are they not effective

21 because they don't care?

22 MR. WEST: Funds, tribal politics.

23 Anybody who has been around Indian gaming --

24 MR. McGHEE: There are different reasons.

25 MR. WEST: -- knows there may be a

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1 multitude of reasons.

2 MR. McGHEE: There is no one reason, but

3 I don't think any of those reasons are the regs. It's

4 usually driven by something else. Either they don't

5 have support, they don't have funds, but it's usually

6 not because the regs are bad or good that they're

7 ineffective. So whether it was these regs or other

8 regs, it's probably not the same issues, because it's

9 usually driven by something else, they don't have the

10 support of the council or something.

11 MR. WEST: But when at least they had,

12 say, the 542 regs, at least they had something to base

13 their TICS on. Unfortunately, most of them, and

14 probably several of them that are represented here, just

15 did a wholesale adoption of the MICS as their TICS

16 instead of developing, further expanding and developing

17 a comprehensive set of TICS.

18 MR. WILSON: That's absolutely true,

19 Rest. And what's interesting is that, from my

20 perspective, you can take 542 and adopt that as your

21 safe harbor, but just don't tie all of this into saying

22 that's for us.

23 So I mean, the reality is that every

24 tribe is complying with standards that currently exist

25 out there. If you wanted to take and say that those

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1 current standards are the safe harbor and as long as

2 you're doing those you're fine, I certainly -- my tribe

3 would have no problem with that, as long as we have

4 flexibility to be -- greater flexibility than what

5 currently is allowed to say okay, but we're approaching

6 it from a different standpoint.

7 And if my path gets me to the same place

8 that the safe harbor gets a tribe that, for whatever

9 reason, can't -- you know, just doesn't have the

10 resources, the capability, the expertise, whatever, to

11 get there any other route other than through just

12 adopting that safe harbor, I would think that that's

13 what's important at the end of the day, not that this

14 same standard, necessarily, has to be universally

15 applied.

16 MR. FISHER: Matthew.

17 MR. MORGAN: I'm going to follow up on

18 Daniel's point a little bit, on some of the reasons why

19 that doesn't take place, and there are a multitude of

20 reasons why.

21 My question would go to you guys is,

22 again, going back to your role and your culture and your

23 environment, do those tribes happily pick up the phone

24 and say I do need some help, guys? Or are they going

25 I'm going to call Jason, I'm going to call John, I'm

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1 going to call anybody in the world except for you,

2 because if you find out, I've got an NOV coming and I

3 don't want those.

4 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: That is a

5 good point. We have heard that. But it varies. It

6 varies by tribe, it varies by region.

7 MR. MORGAN: I know I get called. And I

8 know that in Oklahoma we have a regulatory-based group,

9 I know they field calls. Nationally, we have a

10 regulatory group, that they field calls. But us giving

11 them what we do sometimes doesn't fit, because we don't

12 know the ins and out of your organization. We're trying

13 to, on a 15-minute call, help.

14 But I will tell you, they don't feel

15 comfortable calling you guys, the majority of people,

16 they're scared of what's going to happen to them,

17 because that culture is not there to say you're going to

18 give me assistance, you're going to provide me

19 documents, you're going to give me what I need to do in

20 order to meet that standard. Some of it may be

21 embarrassment. They're new on the job, day one, and

22 they hand in these documents, and on day two you guys

23 are showing up for an audit. That's a little scary,

24 that is very scary in situations.

25 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Well, I

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1 mean, you raise a good point, something we talked about

2 earlier, about the whole training and technical

3 assistance aspect of our responsibility. And that's one

4 thing we're working on. I don't know if you've noticed,

5 but we've got some positions posted out there, former

6 enforcement staff, our field investigator staff, how

7 they're compliance officers.

8 We're changing the focus on compliance,

9 making a point that Brian made earlier, is that to some

10 degree, it's our responsibility to make sure folks stay

11 in compliance. And you know, as a Commissioner, I don't

12 want to be issuing NOVs. That's kind of something that

13 we're not doing our job if we're issuing NOVs. If we

14 can provide the training and technical assistance to

15 keep everybody in compliance, then I think everybody

16 wins.

17 So we're working on that. And that will

18 come with finding additional resources and staff for our

19 training and technical assistance program.

20 Our staff when they're out there, and I

21 know for a fact, you know, we have a lot of really good

22 dedicated folks, that when they do see an issue, they

23 are immediately providing technical assistance and

24 they're immediately doing an ad hoc little training

25 session with the TGRA, or whomever, to help fix the

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1 issue before it becomes a potential violation.

2 But we do hear quite often, more often

3 than not, that folks say, well, we don't want to call

4 you guys because we're afraid you guys are going to nail

5 us with an NOV. So we're working on that. I think

6 that's a little bit of trust that we need to earn and

7 that tribes need to provide to us, because we are here

8 to not issue NOVs but to maintain compliance.

9 MR. FISHER: Were you done, Matt?

10 Okay, so --

11 MR. WEST: And if it's Class III, I would

12 imagine some of the calls you're getting are non-MICS,

13 because MICS is only a small part of it, and most of

14 them are backgrounding and other issues we're

15 discussing. In a Class III operation, you know, we

16 don't go out and audit for MICS unless we're requested.

17 MR. MORGAN: I will say some of the

18 questions I get is, in Oklahoma, the Oklahoma City

19 region looks at it this way, Tulsa looks at it this way,

20 but I talked to my buddy in California and they look at

21 it that way. Where am I safe at? Because all three

22 opinions of your regional offices do not line up. So

23 how do I stay in compliance? That's the goal. I want

24 to be in compliance. That's what everybody wants.

25 MR. WEST: When we get a MICS request

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1 about the intent of a standard, we run it through

2 everybody and then get a consensus of opinion. I'm

3 hoping you're talking about a backgrounding or a -- some

4 other issue. We don't have anybody in Oklahoma City, so

5 there is no opinion coming out of Oklahoma City.

6 MR. FISHER: All right.

7 MR. McGHEE: So of these 13 questions,

8 did we touch on all of them?

9 MR. FISHER: We touched on some of them,

10 I think.

11 Time-wise, we're at about ten of 12:00,

12 scheduled to break for lunch. So maybe we should check

13 to see if there is anybody in the audience that wants to

14 provide public comment before we break for lunch.

15 MS. OGAS: Everything they said. They

16 hit the nail on the head.

17 MR. FISHER: Okay, so there is one public

18 comment.

19 All right. So the way that the committee

20 works is to provide an opportunity for people in the

21 audience to provide public comment to the group, if you

22 so choose. And we usually ask people to sign up in

23 advance, because we've got -- we worked in the closed

24 session this morning.

25 So is there anybody in the audience that

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1 wants to provide any direct comment to the committee, at

2 this point?

3 Okay, so I would invite you --

4 MR. ARMSTRONG: James Armstrong,

5 Suquamish Tribe, the host tribe, executive director.

6 I believe -- I believe we hit it all on

7 the nail head here on the change in establishing the

8 guidelines and rules. Basically, in 95 --

9 MR. FISHER: Can you just pause for one

10 second? Cheryl here is asking for you to use a

11 microphone. Just bear with us one second.

12 Also, Daniel, are you doing your timing

13 thing here for us?

14 MR. ARMSTRONG: It's not going to be that

15 long.

16 MR. FISHER: Okay.

17 MR. ARMSTRONG: In 1995, in working with

18 NIGC and their agents, very easygoing, fast-paced

19 environment of maintaining compliance.

20 Now, as the years have gone by, NIGC has

21 now sort of went into a police state that makes the

22 tribe feel very embarrassed and they don't want to come

23 forward and ask them for help.

24 So basically, what we have here with the

25 new regime of NIGC, working together in cooperation to

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1 assist those lower tribes that can't afford it, bringing

2 them up to compliance, I do agree that there should be a

3 process in place for the ones that are out of compliance

4 and need assistance, because those are the ones that

5 need the help the most.

6 MR. FISHER: Okay, thank you.

7 And did you get his name?

8 THE TRANSCRIPTIONIST: James Armstrong.

9 MR. FISHER: Does anybody on the

10 committee have any questions or follow-up for that?

11 Okay. Anybody else in the audience wish

12 to give any comment directly to the committee?

13 Okay. So we're at five of 12:00. Do you

14 want to keep going or do you want to break for lunch?

15 All right, so let's break for lunch. So

16 on our schedule, we're scheduled to come back from

17 lunch -- we gave one hour to do that. So we'll start up

18 again at 1:00, a little bit longer than an hour.

19 (TAC meeting recessed at 11:55 to

20 be resumed at 1:00 p.m.)

21

22

23

24

25

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1 AFTERNOON SESSION

2 1:14 P.M.

3 --oOo--

4

5 MR. FISHER: Okay. I don't know if

6 anybody has any follow-up from the discussion before we

7 broke for lunch. It occurred to me -- it occurred to me

8 that we should have a little more discussion about the

9 guidance documents and so figure out how we're going to

10 talk about the guidance-related things, because that is

11 going to become an integral discussion point for every

12 section that we do in the MICS.

13 Go ahead, Leo.

14 MR. CULLOO: One more comment. When we

15 talk about -- it seems like everything is driven by

16 checklist to determine compliance and how good they are.

17 And I recall when I first got in this

18 business, when I didn't have any knowledge, really,

19 about that kind of stuff and going to peers for help,

20 but a lot of times there is always a checklist provided,

21 saying here is a checklist, this is to help you with

22 your program. And I found myself at some point

23 thinking, wow, I have all the yeses checked, I have a

24 great compliance. I should be nominated for compliance

25 manager of the year.

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1 Then I started thinking that I'm training

2 my staff to the list. And what that does is narrowing

3 scope, your ability to really check what your risks are.

4 So to me a checklist should not be

5 anything more than one small tool in a complete

6 compliance program, because you don't want to train

7 people to the list, because then that's all they look

8 at. And I think that's what happened sometimes, is

9 people get so focused on the list, I have this piece of

10 paper, all the yeses, I'm good to go, I have a great

11 program.

12 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yeah, I

13 think one aspect of the way (inaudible) that you do your

14 job there.

15 MR. FISHER: All right. So, Dan, what

16 are you thinking about in terms of the discussion around

17 the guidance?

18 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Dan,

19 Smokin' Dan I think brought up a really good -- he

20 brought up a really good point about the guidance

21 document. I think there was some confusion.

22 When we say we want to discuss the

23 guidance document, we don't want to go, okay, Tab T, we

24 don't want to do that. We just want to highlight the

25 areas that we pointed out in the comparison documents.

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1 So maybe that provides a little more ease for the group

2 and maybe eliminates the fear that we're going to go

3 line by line.

4 I think Rest and his staff did a pretty

5 good job at highlighting some areas that, you know,

6 whether or not they were removed from the regulation

7 altogether, whether they were taken from the regulation

8 and put into the guidance documents, just a little bit

9 of rationale or reasoning why did you do that. And I

10 think that would be really helpful overall to the

11 process there.

12 So that was -- I mean, what's the whole

13 point that we are trying to make. And I'm sorry there

14 was a little confusion there about we don't want to open

15 up the tab and go line by line, if that helps out

16 anybody.

17 Anybody have any comment on that? Okay.

18 MR. FISHER: So we're not trying to draft

19 the guidance, but there are questions that you have that

20 are in the comparison document about the guidance that

21 came along with the TGWG proposal.

22 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yes.

23 MR. FISHER: Okay. And that's what you

24 want to focus on?

25 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yes.

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1 MR. FISHER: Okay. So is there anything

2 more we need to talk about on either the risk-based

3 approach or on your questions? Are there questions that

4 NIGC sent out at the end of last week, before we turn to

5 starting in on the MICS 543.1, which is the next subject

6 on the agenda?

7 Okay. So then let's -- let's go to 543.1

8 and that whole section in there, 543.1, 543.3, 543.4 and

9 543.6. And I heard I think Matthew, you said this

10 morning that it was important to understand those

11 sections and how those sections fit into the rest of the

12 proposal from the Tribal Gaming Working Group.

13 So does somebody who participated on the

14 Tribal Gaming Working Group want to give any kind of

15 overview or explanation of what that represents?

16 MS. HAMEL: I would be glad to.

17 I think more that 543.3 was really the

18 key to the mission that the TGWG had in developing a

19 MICS document that would only be successful if there

20 were tribal internal controls as well as a system of

21 internal controls developed and implemented by the

22 operations.

23 And I think we tried to do a really good

24 job in 543 and in our draft of identifying how those

25 internal controls need to be implemented to make this

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1 whole process of Minimum Internal Control Standards

2 successful.

3 Also, in 542.3 and 543.3 proposed, there

4 was all of this language about CPAs and CPA testing and

5 all of these regulations and under GAAP and GASB and on

6 and on and on. And those are really kind of an outcome

7 of an external audit or some guidelines that we thought

8 really should be in the audit section or accounting

9 section as part of the annual audit. And I think the

10 whole tone of all of 547 and 543 was that if there were

11 other regulations that an operation or TGRA needed to

12 make sure they were in compliance with that we didn't

13 regurgitate what those regulations are, because they

14 could indeed change and then you would have outdated

15 information.

16 So we moved all the CPA language over to

17 procedures, information in the accounting section under

18 audit and accounting under an annual audit, and we used

19 real generalizations of different regulations outside of

20 NIGC regulations that could be referred to. And then

21 we, in our guidance document, I think we also talked

22 about responsibilities of the operations and the

23 management of the operation to have enough information

24 that they understood what their CPAs were supposed to be

25 looking for in the agreed-upon procedures rather than

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1 regurgitating what the agreed-upon procedures were.

2 I truly believe that that 543.3 is the

3 foundation of every one of these regulations going

4 forward.

5 MR. FISHER: You're nodding your head in

6 agreement?

7 MR. MORGAN: Yes. I completely agree

8 with all of Kathi's statement there. And that really --

9 I personally will be looking to the NIGC as we go

10 through these sections, seeing if you buy in, again, to

11 that concept of how you implement that concept. If you

12 buy into the concept that's set forth in 543.3, 543.4

13 really is telling for the rest of the document to make

14 sure that you understand at least how the Tribal Gaming

15 Working Group looks at it and, so far in our

16 discussions, I think how the majority of the folks are

17 seeing the structure set up.

18 So hopefully, this will give everybody a

19 good understanding. And either at that point we can,

20 you know, talk about whether you agree with that concept

21 or no, you don't agree with that concept. And maybe

22 we're -- you know, what we talked about this morning,

23 what the Chairwoman talked about, is that there may need

24 to be specific issues from the guidance that you thought

25 need to be back in there. And I'm going to look to you

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1 guys to kind of bring those points up, that I'm not

2 there yet, how do I get there. It's very important that

3 we grasp the foundation of how this at least proposed

4 standard was drafted.

5 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

6 for the underlying premises, and I know you've been

7 pretty clear about wanting us to basically buy into the

8 concept or not buy into the concept, and that's just

9 something we can't do right now. I think we're

10 comfortable with you helping us understand how you came

11 to these conclusions, and I guess working off the

12 premise that if, I guess, all this could be accepted,

13 how did you come to these conclusions? All right? Not

14 putting us in a, say, a box that yes, okay, we're agreed

15 that we support this philosophy but, you know, don't

16 work -- you know, working off this draft, explain to us

17 how you came to some of these conclusions.

18 You know, I think for 543.3, you know, we

19 had some points we were hoping to get clarified. There

20 isn't any guidance documents, but, you know, as far as

21 like time frames, the independent certified public

22 accountant audit report, some of those types of things

23 would be helpful to help us understand.

24 That's why, Dan, when you were out, I was

25 talking about the conversation that we had about, you

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1 know, we don't necessarily want to look through all the

2 guidance documents and go line by line, we're just

3 trying to touch upon these comparison documents that we

4 highlighted that we'd like a little more information on.

5 If there is other areas of the guidance

6 documents, and I do understand some of these sections

7 have guidance documents, some don't, if there is other

8 areas that the group feels it's important to talk about,

9 even amongst yourselves, I mean, that's fine, also. But

10 these are the areas that we raised and we thought were

11 worthwhile to discuss a little bit further.

12 MR. McGHEE: So for 543.3, for instance,

13 you're really only -- you have two, well, questions

14 about two sections, (a)(2) and (b)(2), okay?

15 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yeah.

16 MR. McGHEE: I'm looking at the NIGC

17 comments to proposed regulations.

18 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Right.

19 MR. McGHEE: Right?

20 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Exactly,

21 yeah. And I think the -- I think, Kathi, you might have

22 answered the CPA testing request on the last page that

23 we talked about. Is that being moved to another

24 section?

25 MS. HAMEL: Yes. It's under audit and

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1 accounting, 19.

2 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Okay, I

3 see that.

4 MR. MORGAN: I know you made available

5 some of the Tribal Gaming Working Group documents and

6 some of the memos in there that I think are actually

7 under Tab O. That does set forth some of those

8 concepts, especially when we talk about the Tribal

9 Gaming Working Group worked hard not to delete, we

10 worked very hard to move things by subject matter into

11 sections and group them similarly with those other

12 subject matters.

13 So a lot of times when you look at

14 something and it looks to delete this section, it's just

15 because it's been moved to another section. We thought

16 it worked better for frontline folks to find it more

17 conveniently.

18 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: And I'm

19 not sure -- I don't think we got a redline copy of the

20 actual whole -- we had a difficult time, in some

21 instances, of trying to piece together where some things

22 went and, you know, some areas you created, you know,

23 new sections, and trying to find a reference, whether it

24 be in the 2008 regs in the 2010 draft, or I think in

25 some instances we even had to reference the Part 542.

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1 So we'd appreciate your kind of helping

2 us explain these things, how you got there.

3 MR. WEST: So did you move these -- any

4 of these standards in total over or were there some

5 deletions taken out?

6 MS. HAMEL: There were some deletions

7 taken out. We tried to focus it on the objective and

8 not the details of whether (inaudible) under the annual

9 audits.

10 MR. FISHER: Just bear with us one

11 second. That's a good reference.

12 MS. HAMEL: It's (g), it's this entire

13 annual audit section.

14 MR. WEST: It's really not an audit,

15 though.

16 MR. FISHER: In what sense?

17 MR. WEST: An AUP is not an audit.

18 I think that's what I was touching on

19 earlier, there is a lot of different terminology that's

20 floating around. Your agreed-upon procedures is not an

21 audit. So it's not a good terminology for the function.

22 MR. MORGAN: Could I ask you to explain,

23 in your thought process, what an AUP would be if not an

24 audit?

25 MR. WEST: An audit, generally, a CPA

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1 renders an opinion on the financial statements of an

2 entity. In this case, there is -- they're given a

3 testation agreement. So it's different than an audit.

4 It's probably easier to say it's at a lower level than

5 an audit.

6 MR. MORGAN: But the function is

7 performed by whom?

8 MR. WEST: External audit CPA firm.

9 MR. MORGAN: I asked that question

10 because of my idea on the subject matter, when you're

11 talking about audits, we gave different names to

12 different types of audits, but we still found that that

13 subject matter fell into auditing. It may not rise to

14 the level of what, Rest, you're saying, and I don't know

15 what the correct term -- you said audit. I don't know

16 if there is a better word to distinguish between an

17 agreed-upon procedures type of an audit and a full-blown

18 MICS compliance audit or a --

19 MR. WEST: They're entirely separate.

20 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Well, is statements

21 on standards for a testation engagement, isn't that a

22 financial audit?

23 MR. WEST: No. The financial audit is

24 entirely different from the AUP, from the agreed-upon

25 procedures. Financial audit, every tribe is required to

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1 do that, submit it to the NIGC. And it's -- the purpose

2 of the audit is for the CPA to render an opinion on the

3 financial statements. It is not to go in and look at

4 the MICS. That's a completely separate thing that's

5 required.

6 MS. HAMEL: But doesn't that fall under

7 571?

8 MR. MORGAN: 25 CFR Part 571.

9 MR. WEST: I don't think so. What's 571

10 about?

11 MS. HAMEL: Audited financial statements.

12 MR. WEST: Their requirement is each

13 gaming operation should have an annual audit conducted

14 by an external CPA firm and submit a copy of the

15 financial audit to NIGC within 120 days at the end of

16 the fiscal year. Also, an overlook requirement is the

17 management letter should be submitted, also. Is that

18 1715?

19 MS. HAMEL: 571 is the reference in the

20 proposed 543.

21 MR. WILSON: Kathi, what reference are

22 you saying?

23 MS. HAMEL: He just pulled this reference

24 to 571 right here.

25 MR. MORGAN: She's looking at

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1 543.19(g)(2).

2 MR. WILSON: Do I understand correctly

3 that the issue is that the Tribal Gaming Working Group

4 used the term "audit" to include both a financial audit

5 as well as a MICS controls audit? Is that what you're

6 saying?

7 MR. WEST: That's not what I'm saying.

8 I'm saying that the heading of (j), annual audits, under

9 this audit and accounting, probably needs to be changed.

10 MR. McGHEE: It's just a matter of it

11 being moved to the auditing section, is what he's

12 talking about, not that it shouldn't be done, but is it

13 in the right section when we moved it.

14 MR. FISHER: So just to be clear, Rest,

15 your reference to section -- which part were you

16 referring to? 543.3?

17 MR. WILSON: No, 543.19, I think.

18 MR. WEST: This is just a point of

19 clarification.

20 MR. McGHEE: Agreed-upon procedures,

21 should it be under the section annual audits if it's not

22 an actual audit, is what he's talking about. Am I

23 right? Not that it's not important, but should it be

24 under the statement annual audits or should it be back

25 where it was or be titled with something else.

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1 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Does that

2 make sense?

3 MR. WEST: The annual audit is not a MICS

4 requirement, it's a Commission regulation. It's an IGRA

5 requirement.

6 MR. FISHER: Oh, so that's why it's

7 sitting here in 571.

8 MS. HAMEL: Right.

9 MR. MORGAN: Right.

10 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: I took it as saying

11 now that it's -- you're going to have -- your annual

12 audit is going to include AUPs and financial.

13 MR. WEST: Well, I don't think financials

14 should be addressed in this document, in 543, because

15 you might conflict with something in IGRA.

16 MR. FISHER: Okay. So what are we --

17 what question are we trying to figure out?

18 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: We're

19 just explaining to them the issues that we see, and then

20 the group can adjust accordingly and make some

21 recommendations, or if you feel that it's fine, you

22 think it's clear enough --

23 MR. MORGAN: So in a previous MICS, I

24 don't want to use that "previous" with all of its

25 misnomers out there, in at least the redline version,

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1 the syntax we got says the agreed-upon procedures may be

2 performed in conjunction with the annual audit.

3 So I mean, that statement was in

4 something that was marked out. The Tribal Gaming

5 Working Group put that language -- moved it, because it

6 all dealt with the subject matter we felt of audits,

7 moved it over, put it in 543.19(g) under annual audits.

8 And the only thing I'm trying to figure

9 out is if we still -- because it does say "may." You

10 know, the agreed-upon procedures, do we require it? So

11 now we have to do an annual audit and an AUP, or is it

12 you may do it in conjunction with your annual audit?

13 Because to me, at least in my mind, when your auditors

14 come in, no matter what function they're performing,

15 that's -- you're all talking about auditing.

16 Because one of the things we did, and I

17 hate to jump forward like this, I promise, because if

18 I'm causing confusion, just tell me to shut up, because

19 we tried to turn them into the annual audits, an

20 internal audit and an operational audit, trying to make

21 sure you understood who was supposed to be performing

22 the audit and the subject matter covered, but it was all

23 covered under the umbrella audits.

24 I took it from Rest that he didn't think

25 it fell under audits. I wanted to make sure the group

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1 understood that it may not fall under audits. But in my

2 mind, it's still an audit but it may not be one of those

3 audits. And if not, maybe we need to adjust and have a

4 separate section under audits that we discuss

5 agreed-upon procedures. But if the point is it

6 shouldn't be there, then my question is, well, if it's

7 not there, then where do you think it should be?

8 MR. FISHER: And the "there" is in

9 543.19(g)?

10 MR. MORGAN: Yes.

11 MR. FISHER: Thank you.

12 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Will that

13 work?

14 MR. WEST: My point to begin the whole

15 thing is it's typically not known as an audit. So the

16 heading for that section needs to be changed, because

17 the confusion here is whether you're talking about a

18 financial audit or MICS audit.

19 MR. WILSON: And clearly, there is -- I

20 mean, a financial audit is distinct and separate. So

21 the agreed-upon procedures are really to address this

22 other component that, for efficiency's sake and cost,

23 makes sense, particularly in concert with when your

24 financial audit is being done, most firms will also do

25 the agreed-upon procedures audit or the MICS audit,

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1 whatever you want to call it, at the same time because

2 it makes sense to do so.

3 But one is not directly tied to the

4 other. You can do a financial audit independent without

5 doing the other one, or vice versa.

6 MS. HAMEL: But it must be done annually.

7 MR. WILSON: Yes.

8 MR. MORGAN: Well, that's what I think

9 our term was, annual.

10 MR. FISHER: Oh, I see. So is it a

11 heading change or is there a substantive change? Is

12 this a nomenclature change?

13 MR. WEST: A heading. Because as I was

14 speaking before lunch, there is a lot of confusion as to

15 all the audits and different types of things that are

16 done by whether it's internal auditors or external

17 auditors or whatever.

18 MR. MORGAN: Well, I think at least from

19 the working group, that's one of the reasons we tried to

20 bring it all into one place. And if we failed to

21 distinguish something there -- because the way we were

22 looking at it was while IGRA does require an annual

23 audit, annually you also have to do an AUP. So we're

24 just going to put it under the general heading of annual

25 audit. Maybe we need to split those two things up in

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1 the audit.

2 MR. WEST: My point is the financial

3 audit shouldn't even be discussed in this document,

4 unless you're saying you can do it in conjunction with

5 it or something. I don't think you do. I think you

6 just discuss --

7 MS. HAMEL: That's what we said, we just

8 said it could be in conjunction, as required.

9 MR. FISHER: Where? What section are you

10 referring to?

11 MR. MORGAN: 543.19(g).

12 MS. HAMEL: (g)(2).

13 MR. McGHEE: But in that paragraph, it

14 does say it must be submitted with the annual financial

15 audit versus it may be.

16 MR. FISHER: Okay. Everybody keeping

17 track with where we are?

18 MR. WILSON: I mean, (g) says annual

19 audits. And really what you're pointing out is there

20 are required audits that need to be done.

21 MS. HAMEL: Annual.

22 MR. WILSON: Forget annual, just say

23 there are required audits, and then you can identify the

24 required audits and their frequency.

25 MR. WEST: I'm saying get away from

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1 audit.

2 MR. McGHEE: Should it be review?

3 Reporting procedure?

4 MR. FISHER: So don't call the AUP an

5 audit?

6 MR. WEST: No.

7 MR. MORGAN: Even though it's done by an

8 auditor?

9 MR. WEST: They don't give an opinion on

10 it. If they have findings, they list them, but they

11 don't -- we were not engaged to and did not perform an

12 examination objective (inaudible) expression of opinion

13 on internal control structures as a whole. Further, we

14 do not express such an opinion.

15 I mean, that's typical language in all

16 your AUPs, if you were to pull them up and take a look

17 at them, see what your CPA firm said on your last AUP

18 that you received.

19 MR. McGHEE: In the internal controls, is

20 that the only place where they say a CPA must do this in

21 the 543 as a whole? Is that the only place?

22 MR. WEST: I think so.

23 MR. McGHEE: So could that just be the

24 only place you mention that a CPA has to be -- instead

25 of calling it an annual audit, just say CPA requirement

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1 or something?

2 MR. WEST: I think it says CPA testing in

3 the 543.

4 MR. CALLAGHAN: Rather than calling it an

5 audit, what if we called it an engagement?

6 MR. FISHER: It's 543 -- the existing

7 543.3(f) labeled CPA testing. And then it says an

8 independent certified public accountant must be engaged

9 to perform the AUP.

10 MR. McGHEE: Why don't we just call (g)

11 CPA -- what did you say? Reporting?

12 MR. FISHER: Testing.

13 MR. McGHEE: CPA testing.

14 MR. WEST: We're not even on 19 yet.

15 MR. McGHEE: But it's a question that

16 first we can fix it now.

17 (Simultaneous discussion.)

18 MR. MORGAN: If I could bring up one

19 thing, and I'm trying to regurgitate, again, back to

20 conversations from the work group, is that the worry

21 was, again, we're talking about like a new commission,

22 if you walk in and you say what am I supposed to do, we

23 tried to set forth in one section, saying this is what

24 you have to do on this subject matter.

25 We may not have got there. That's my

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1 only worry about just calling it AUP there. Maybe it

2 needs a different section somewhere else. Because if

3 you're just reading your MICS and somehow you forget to

4 go back to 571 and remember, oh, yeah, I need an annual

5 audit, it doesn't show up in --

6 MR. McGHEE: But you can still leave it

7 under 19 under those kind of requirements, just a

8 different name.

9 MR. MORGAN: That's kind of a separate

10 issue. I want to make sure that, if our goal is to help

11 smaller or new commissions, you don't forget something.

12 Where would be the best place to put that reminder? And

13 maybe it's not in the Class II, it may not be, but

14 somewhere where you say, hey, guys, don't forget about

15 this requirement, too, over here. Because otherwise I

16 think we've talked about things -- in my world, I'm not

17 an auditor, when I hear audits, you told me everything

18 in that one section, everything that I need to do there.

19 And if I take something out from there, then I want to,

20 you know, from my perspective, I want a pointer

21 somewhere saying, oh, yeah, don't forget about this

22 thing that you have hanging out here that you have to

23 do, as well.

24 MS. THOMAS: I think if you just change

25 it to the CPA testing (inaudible) it would be fine, not

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1 change that paragraph that points to it.

2 MR. MORGAN: I'm just regurgitating the

3 conversation we had. You don't have to convince me.

4 Sorry, Christina.

5 MR. FISHER: If I understand Christina,

6 you're still -- the Tribal Gaming Working Group wanted

7 to consolidate all of those things in one place, you

8 moved it out of various places, put it in 543.19,

9 particularly (g) here. And if you're okay with that

10 concept of consolidating all of it, then it's just a --

11 then it's just a name change. But if you have a problem

12 with consolidating it, then we need to be talking about

13 that.

14 Rest?

15 MR. WEST: It's more logical for me to

16 leave it in 543.3. But then you talk about such things

17 as determination to your level, gaming operation moved

18 from one tier to the other, it's in this tribal

19 governments comply with this (inaudible). It seems

20 logical to me to leave it in that part of the MICS. The

21 TGRA should ensure that the TICS are established and

22 implemented that (inaudible), evaluation TICS. So it

23 seems to follow logically in 543.3.

24 MR. FISHER: That's what you were just

25 reading from, 543.3?

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1 MR. WEST: Yes.

2 MS. HAMEL: Operationally, if it doesn't

3 get assigned to a department, it's very likely it can be

4 missed. If it isn't owned by accounting or if it isn't

5 owned by bingo or if it isn't owned by the cage, it will

6 fall through the cracks.

7 MR. FISHER: So that was part of the

8 reason for taking it out of subsection (3)?

9 MR. MORGAN: I can see that, because when

10 we started talking, we went straight from the technical

11 standards right into bingo and we just went right by it

12 because it wasn't a subject matter jumping out at us.

13 MR. CALLAGHAN: That makes sense.

14 MR. FISHER: What makes sense, Brian?

15 MR. CALLAGHAN: We recommend it.

16 (Simultaneous discussion.)

17 MR. McGHEE: Made sense to them that it

18 be over here. That's where they were going.

19 MR. FISHER: Let's have one conversation

20 going at a time, if we could.

21 Okay. Brian, tell us, does it make

22 sense?

23 MR. CALLAGHAN: I'm sorry. What I was

24 rudely saying was just change that section from control

25 standards for auditing, make it auditing, accounting and

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1 attestation, and then you've got your all-inclusive

2 section, and then you've got the nomenclature that you

3 may be more --

4 MR. WEST: But this is the responsibility

5 of the TGRA to make sure this is performed. And the

6 rest of the discussion of 543.3 is the same. I mean,

7 it's one of the -- it's not a specialized area of the

8 gaming operation like internal audit or whatever that

9 needs to be, to me. Well, I mean, I'm --

10 MR. CALLAGHAN: The very first section

11 there, internal controls subject to the approval and

12 oversight of the TGRA, this has to do with internal

13 control procedures. We could make it part of TGRA's

14 ownership.

15 MR. WILSON: Well, that's an interesting

16 question, because in --

17 MR. FISHER: What's an interesting

18 question?

19 MR. WILSON: Well, this idea of who has

20 ownership of the annual audit.

21 In our operation, the casino has

22 ownership of that. And in fact, they select the public

23 accounting firm as approved by the tribal council. Our

24 role is merely to ensure that it's being done but not --

25 we aren't really -- we actually aren't involved at all

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1 in that audit, per se. I don't know if it's the same

2 with other folks.

3 MR. FISHER: So I see people nodding

4 their head around the table, that that's the way it

5 works in other tribes, as well, other situations.

6 MR. MORGAN: Because that's the reason

7 the question has been directed to the tribe to decide.

8 The tribal government decides who owns it, in a way.

9 And if it does sit at a council level, while you're

10 required to make sure they get it done, sometimes it's

11 hard to tell political leaders you need to get to that.

12 Sometimes you remind them of the risk associated with

13 not, but I do agree with your statement earlier, having

14 somebody own that and making sure that it's their

15 responsibility.

16 MR. WILSON: It's our responsibility, we

17 are the ones who actually send the report to NIGC once

18 it's completed, but we don't have a lot of active

19 involvement in that audit. We're a part of the audit.

20 MS. HAMEL: Because what the TGRA's TICS

21 look like in comparison to the MICS are evaluated by the

22 external auditors (inaudible).

23 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: We own, as a

24 commission, we own our internal audit, so we take

25 ownership of that and perform that function. And we

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1 provide those to our external auditors.

2 MR. McGHEE: I'm not married to it either

3 way. If it were in this section or in this section, it

4 still has to be done at the end of the day. So I think

5 it's more about what it says to do is more important

6 than where it is.

7 So I could see your point. I could see

8 the other side of it, too. But if you're trying to say

9 that -- and maybe, like you said, if you look at this,

10 people take ownership of these sections. So basically,

11 the auditing -- my accounting and my auditing people at

12 the operation are going to look to that section and

13 they're going to see that, and then they may claim, oh,

14 that's my responsibility to do that, when really it

15 doesn't matter whose responsibility it is, it's just

16 that the tribal government has to make sure that it's

17 done.

18 So I'm not opposed to it being back in

19 543.3. It's a matter of what it says.

20 MR. WEST: So do you now have internal

21 audit in 543.19?

22 MS. HAMEL: Yes.

23 MR. WEST: That's not the responsibility

24 of your accounting department. Why wouldn't that be

25 separated out?

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1 MR. MORGAN: Accounting and auditing is

2 in that section.

3 MR. WEST: It's not a part of that gaming

4 operation's responsibility, it's a TGRA function or

5 whoever does your internal audit. Why would it not be

6 in a separate section?

7 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: But it could be.

8 MR. WEST: Sometimes the tribal

9 government does the internal audit, sometimes the TGRA

10 does it, sometimes it's contracted out.

11 MR. MORGAN: Where the NIGC decides to

12 put it, it's a requirement, it's really you all's call

13 where it goes. I'm just trying to explain from the work

14 group why we put it there. We thought accounting and

15 auditing kind of went hand in hand. If I'm an

16 accountant or I'm an auditor and I see my name up there,

17 I need to go through and figure out who does that.

18 Whether I'm located in the tribal government, whether

19 I'm located in the gaming commission, whether I'm

20 located externally, if I know my job is to audit, I go

21 look through that section. I don't have to look through

22 543.3, 543.7, 543.19, I know I can go to that section

23 and say that's what I need to do. That was our thought

24 process.

25 MR. McGHEE: Any kind of audit, any kind

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1 of review, anything of that kind in that section that

2 has to be done by somebody, that's that concept.

3 Whether you stick with that or change that --

4 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Any

5 recommendations?

6 MR. WEST: I mean, the original intent

7 when this section was developed through, I don't know,

8 one of the committees, they had expanded the auditing --

9 the revenue auditing is what I call it, expanded the

10 revenue audit to the standards. And then some members

11 of the committee decided they were going to take all the

12 revenue audit standards and move them to this one

13 section, this 543.50.

14 So I think that's where the -- this whole

15 idea or thought process was. But it's just for what you

16 call operational auditing and what I call revenue

17 auditing. So the revenue auditors would have this one

18 section and know what to do. But in 543.19, you have

19 internal audit in there, too, and also the AUP, which

20 are entirely separate from the operational auditing

21 function.

22 MR. FISHER: So you weren't trying to

23 combine them on the ground, you were just trying to put

24 in one place in the regulation all the similar kinds of

25 provisions. And I see it says operational audit,

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1 formerly a revenue audit, in 19.

2 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: All

3 right. I think we've beat this issue.

4 MR. FISHER: Yes. So --

5 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: So I

6 understand it now.

7 MR. MORGAN: That's what we wanted, you

8 to understand it.

9 MR. FISHER: We beat it enough we

10 actually get it. All right. So --

11 MR. WEST: So that's something to think

12 about when we get to 543.19, I guess.

13 MR. McGHEE: But it answers the question

14 you had for 543.3, right?

15 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Right.

16 MR. FISHER: He's looking at the comments

17 on the comparison document.

18 MR. WILSON: For 543.3?

19 MR. FISHER: Yes, 543.3. The first NIGC

20 comment was on section (a)(2), the date of the

21 independent CPA audit report.

22 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: I read it to be the

23 date of the opinion.

24 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: What was

25 that, date of the what?

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1 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Date of the opinion,

2 the way I interpreted it.

3 MR. FISHER: Was that what was intended?

4 MR. MORGAN: I think the previous one

5 said you had six months to come into compliance.

6 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: And now

7 it's nine, right?

8 MR. MORGAN: And then if you want an

9 extension, you will get another six months. And the

10 work group said, well, we think you should have nine

11 months to come into compliance, and you still get that

12 extra six months.

13 And the reason we did that, if you notice

14 that gives you more than a year, that next question

15 talks about it I think, the year, because sometimes with

16 new regulations -- like my office, I'm annually

17 budgeted. So I know in October -- actually, I know in

18 June, prior to October, what my budget is going to be.

19 If you come up with a new rule in December and I'm

20 required to implement that within that fiscal year and I

21 didn't get budgeted for it, that presents me with a huge

22 problem.

23 So that was to give you some type of

24 overlap, something longer than a twelve-month period, if

25 you're in that situation, so you're not required to meet

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1 a standard within a budget year that you already have

2 been budgeted for.

3 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I thought

4 we went over this. You said there was no added cost for

5 compliance. Sorry, I had to.

6 MR. MORGAN: Because you reserve the

7 right to do something later. I don't know what you want

8 to do, I have to build in that. But that's the worry

9 sometimes.

10 But again, going back to smaller, going

11 back to newer, just going back into that wasn't in my

12 priorities for this budgeted year. I don't know how I'm

13 going to take care of that now without going back to

14 tribal council. And you're going to have arguments of

15 how come you're putting demands on tribal council to put

16 something in gaming that's not there.

17 MR. WEST: The regulations usually have a

18 lot of lead time before their compliance is required,

19 don't they?

20 MR. MORGAN: Rest, I would give you an

21 example of this Class II. It was published in 08

22 originally. We spent lots of time and efforts gearing

23 up for it, trying to implement it, and then you pushed

24 it back and you pushed it back.

25 So sometimes it doesn't pay to be ahead

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1 of the curve, because you put in time, and effort and

2 two years down the line we weren't there. Sometimes it

3 does serve you best to wait until the implementation to

4 say yes, this is what I'm going to do and it's going to

5 be in this form when it's finally published in the

6 Federal Register, because that's the requirements that I

7 have to meet.

8 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yeah,

9 we're going through that process for the regs that we're

10 promulgating right now, for the proposed rules that are

11 out there, is how can we basically work them into the

12 flow and folks comply with it and be on time. And

13 obviously, you make a good point about making sure that

14 tribes are budgeted for these types of things, because

15 there are issues there.

16 MR. MORGAN: I'm not tied to the dates,

17 I'm just saying the reason why they extended it beyond

18 twelve months, was that was the concern from some folks

19 in the room.

20 MR. WEST: So back to the first question,

21 the date of the report --

22 MR. FISHER: Okay. Everybody see where

23 we are? We're on page nine of the comparison document.

24 MR. WEST: And actually, you go back to

25 the first page, it's paragraph (a)(2), gaming operations

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1 moving from one tier to another shall have nine months

2 from the date of the independent certified public

3 accountant's audit report (inaudible).

4 So what is the date? What date is that

5 referring to?

6 MR. FISHER: It starts the date of the

7 opinion letter or the date of the fiscal year?

8 MR. McGHEE: It says the certified public

9 accountant's audit report.

10 MR. WEST: Is that the date of his

11 opinion or the date of the fiscal year?

12 MR. FISHER: Because the opinion relates

13 to a specific fiscal year. That's the question, right?

14 So Mr. CPA, what should it be?

15 MR. WILSON: I'm not a CPA and I don't

16 play one on TV, but they're certifying for a period in

17 time. So the date, in my mind, would be -- because the

18 firm has what, 120 -- however long they have before they

19 have to issue their report. But if you go from the date

20 of issuance of their report, that's going to be -- could

21 be potentially a variable, whereas the end of the fiscal

22 year that they're reviewing is a definitive date that

23 would be absolute for everybody.

24 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: But

25 isn't -- I'm sorry, is the report, when it's all done,

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1 is that what's going to then all of a sudden say now you

2 have moved it to tier B, whoever gets that report

3 doesn't know that until they get this report. So if

4 they issue a report 120 days after the year ends, that's

5 when they have to start their timeline of coming into

6 compliance, is what I know about it. So it's not the

7 year that it was done, it's when they actually get a

8 report saying, hey, you're in tier B now or you're in

9 tier C now. Now you have 120 days to get into

10 compliance.

11 MR. WILSON: Your financials, I mean, at

12 the end of the fiscal year you know your financials.

13 And if you've reached a new threshold --

14 MR. McGHEE: Not necessarily does your

15 TGRA know you've reached a new threshold without getting

16 something.

17 MR. WEST: Don't you get annual --

18 monthly financials from the gaming operation?

19 MR. McGHEE: Yeah, but I don't track them

20 to see --

21 (Simultaneous discussion.)

22 MR. WILSON: I mean, personally, I can

23 tell you, I wouldn't -- for me, the trigger of the

24 external accountant's report as the definitive now it

25 clicks in wouldn't make sense to me. The event has

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1 already happened. So those financials -- if you've

2 reached that revenue threshold at the end of the year,

3 that's easily determined to trigger that, oh, we're

4 going to be in a new tier now, from that standpoint.

5 I mean, if -- the only thing that

6 possibly could change would be that if you were so close

7 on the line and the audited financials, through their

8 process, discovered some error in accounting that caused

9 that number to change, then yes, that would

10 retroactively say okay, now you're no longer required to

11 do that. But there would have to be a pretty

12 significant material issue that I would think would

13 likely cause that scenario to come into play.

14 MR. McGHEE: Isn't there some point where

15 everybody gets this information notification at the same

16 time? Your commission knows, operation knows, everybody

17 knows we're now at tier B. And what triggers that

18 notification to all parties?

19 MR. WILSON: Well, I would say it's TGRA

20 who ultimately makes that formalization that you're now

21 at a different tier. I mean, the financials serve as

22 the support to say you have reached this thing, but it

23 would be the TGRA's responsibility, then, to ensure,

24 then, that the establishment now and that the MICS, that

25 everything is now compliant to whatever that new tier is

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1 that you have rolled into.

2 MR. WEST: Another thing, I mean, the

3 opinion may come out more than 120 days after the fiscal

4 year end. And we've had a lot of operations -- well,

5 some operations have had issues with their various and

6 sundry things, and it may be six months before the

7 opinion gets issued. So there is a lot of variables.

8 MR. McGHEE: So should that now be, what

9 I'm hearing, is from the fiscal year -- I mean

10 whatever -- whatever your tribe is operating on is what

11 that should be -- the language should be changed to.

12 MR. WILSON: Yeah, and I would think that

13 in part of the guidance documents would be that a TGRA

14 needs to at least annually make that assessment if that

15 tier level has changed, based on the --

16 MR. WHEATLEY: Before they see the audit

17 report.

18 MR. WILSON: Uh-huh.

19 MR. McGHEE: So the answer to the

20 question is change it. I mean, that's what I'm getting

21 at, change it, without us coming up with the language.

22 Because it could be a fiscal year, it could be a

23 calendar year.

24 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: I think it should be

25 up to the TGRA to determine.

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1 MR. CULLOO: On whether it's fiscal or

2 calendar?

3 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: No, on what the date

4 is.

5 MR. McGHEE: We can agree that it's

6 confusing.

7 MR. MORGAN: So then I just want to make

8 sure, my concern has to deal with crossing over a budget

9 year. Whether you tie it to the end of your fiscal year

10 or to the date, it's not so relevant for my position, as

11 long as you -- to me, it's more significant I get nine

12 months plus an additional six, if it's deemed relevant,

13 as opposed to six and six. That's more my issue.

14 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: And that

15 wouldn't cause any gaps in compliance or performing --

16 MR. MORGAN: Not that I can think of.

17 MR. WEST: So you're saying 15 months

18 after they become -- well, we're not sure about the date

19 yet, but say it is fiscal year, so you're saying you're

20 going to allow 15 minutes to come into compliance?

21 MR. MORGAN: Not necessarily, because,

22 again, I have to do nine months and then what the reg

23 says is you can apply to your regulatory body for a

24 six-month extension. I think that's subject to your

25 individual regulatory body granting that. I don't think

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1 it's a foregone conclusion you're going to get it. At

2 least in my world, you have to show me something that

3 you've been doing in order to meet that standard and

4 there has to be some type of justification of why you

5 didn't meet that nine months. If it's deemed relevant,

6 I may grant it, but it's not a foregone conclusion

7 you're going to get that nine months. You have nine

8 months instead of six months is where I start out at

9 when I'm trying to evaluate some of those requests.

10 But back to your question, you know,

11 potentially, yes, you would have 15 months instead of

12 the 12 months to come into compliance, potentially.

13 MR. FISHER: Because that initial nine

14 months is important to you, instead of six. Nine plus

15 six rather than six plus six.

16 MR. MORGAN: Because if I got

17 surveillance and suddenly you do a pixel requirement and

18 I got to upgrade something, that's $7 million I didn't

19 budget, I'm going to push that upgrade maybe at the end

20 of this fiscal year into the next fiscal year so I come

21 in compliance with that requirement on surveillance, as

22 opposed to trying to tackle that in one fiscal year.

23 (Simultaneous discussion.)

24 MR. MORGAN: That's where I find that

25 leeway helpful in those instances.

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1 MR. FISHER: Tom?

2 MR. WILSON: Well --

3 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: We'll go

4 with that.

5 MR. WILSON: Okay, then I have nothing.

6 MR. FISHER: Very wise.

7 So where did we come out on the question

8 on the date?

9 MR. McGHEE: That it would be not from

10 the report but from the actual -- from your year end

11 until you changed over to a new tier.

12 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

13 we're asking if you could just clarify that a little bit

14 better, it would be helpful.

15 MR. MORGAN: So we need a recommendation

16 for your recordkeeping?

17 MR. McGHEE: I think a recommendation to

18 specify a specific time, not so much the language.

19 MR. MORGAN: But if you want to tie it to

20 the end of the fiscal year, just say we tie it to the

21 fiscal year, not from the date of the opinion. Because

22 that's the concept, right?

23 MR. McGHEE: Yeah. I accept that

24 recommendation.

25 MR. MORGAN: Nine and six months instead

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1 of the six and six.

2 MR. FISHER: He's trying to get some

3 traction there.

4 MR. McGHEE: Are we typing this

5 recommendation?

6 MR. FISHER: We're going to have to type

7 it if it actually is a recommendation. So here is one

8 way to do it, is to say -- let's see if this will work.

9 We might have to wake it up again.

10 So where I am on the screen is at the

11 very end of 543.3. If I scrolled up, you would see it.

12 So if we were doing just the specific thing that we did

13 here, you could say -- I'm at the end of 543.3. And so

14 one question is whether you're recommending the -- we

15 haven't talked about the whole section. The first is

16 whether you're recommending that TGWG version of 543.3

17 and then are you recommending -- and then with these --

18 with whatever changes we're doing. The nine plus six is

19 in the TGWG version, right?

20 So you could say this. So I don't know

21 whether that captures it or not. You have to tell me.

22 So what it says is the recommendation

23 would be the TG -- does that help? TGWG version of

24 543.3 clarifying that the date in (a)(2) is from the end

25 of the fiscal year. So you could say that, if you

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1 wanted to be specific, the date of the -- it's actually

2 (a)(2), yes.

3 The operation's fiscal year. So it could

4 also be that -- you know, we had a long discussion about

5 the accounting provisions in 543.19(g) and whether those

6 should be back here or not, but for right now, you could

7 postpone that discussion and say the things that in

8 543.3, based on what the TGWG has proposed, is what

9 you'd like to see with this one change.

10 Tom, were you going to say something?

11 MR. WILSON: Just recalling our

12 conversation with the reporting group that we had last

13 week, are we working out of the version of the document

14 that we --

15 MR. FISHER: Yes. So we're working out

16 of the version that is in Tab A of what's in the

17 notebook.

18 MS. HAMEL: So you're not just going to

19 run on with the change?

20 MR. McGHEE: We don't have the change,

21 just a recommendation.

22 MR. FISHER: Well, two things. So

23 redline the change means -- what I heard was a

24 conceptual recommendation, not a language suggestion.

25 So we can, if you want to do language changes, then I

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1 can -- I can do that.

2 This version of the document, also,

3 currently, this contains everything that we did in Rapid

4 City, also. So it's already one version beyond what's

5 in Tab A. But it is the document that the drafting

6 group -- the starting point for the document on the

7 screen was what the drafting group did. I probably

8 should have clarified that.

9 MS. HAMEL: So are we taking those notes

10 and then going back and redlining?

11 MR. FISHER: So what I -- the question is

12 whether you're making a conceptual recommendation, which

13 is accept the TGWG change with this clarification, or

14 whether you're presenting to them the actual revised

15 language. That's the question.

16 MR. McGHEE: You would redline if it was

17 actually -- we knew exactly what we wanted them to say,

18 we would fix it right there now in redline. Since we

19 don't, we just conceptually know we want them to do

20 this.

21 MR. FISHER: Right. So it's up to you,

22 whether you want to do what we did in Rapid City, where

23 we actually made the changes. Well, I'm actually not a

24 redline guy.

25 MR. McGHEE: What did you say?

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1 MR. FISHER: I said I'm not a redline

2 guy. I really don't use redlining. But I can explain

3 that when we get there.

4 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Wasn't

5 there some confusion in the TGWG document that we had

6 posted online, there was actually some changes to that

7 section that were redlined but then they were accepted

8 and they're not? So it probably would be easier if we

9 just do this instead of trying to actually edit the

10 text.

11 MS. HAMEL: Right.

12 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: And this

13 is just a concept. So I would prefer that.

14 MR. FISHER: Well, of the drafting group,

15 so which was Leo -- I mean Tom and Kathi and Daniel, had

16 a discussion after the Rapid City meeting about which

17 documents to work from and what's the way to present the

18 information in the summary. And so on the MICS part, we

19 opted to start from what's in Tab A in the notebook that

20 got distributed, because that encompasses everything up

21 to the last minute of all the changes from the TGWG.

22 All right. And so we can -- this is up

23 to you, if you're comfortable doing this, to do a

24 conceptual recommendation here. And if you want to come

25 back later and actually change the language, we can do

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1 that, or if there are other sections that you want to

2 change the language on.

3 So again, what this says is that you

4 recommend the TGWG version of 543.3, clarifying that the

5 date in (a)(2) is from the end of the operation's fiscal

6 year, okay? Everybody understand that?

7 So do you want to -- so let's test it.

8 If you're in agreement with that recommendation, please

9 raise your hand.

10 Okay, that would be unanimous.

11 (Simultaneous discussion.)

12 MR. FISHER: So is there anything more we

13 need to do in 543.3?

14 MS. HAMEL: Yes.

15 MR. FISHER: Okay. Kathi?

16 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I'm

17 sorry, go ahead. I'll wait until after you're done.

18 MS. HAMEL: There was a question for the

19 NIGC about the twelve-month compliance date which was --

20 MR. FISHER: I thought we got through

21 that, because we made it 15.

22 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Just a

23 clarification.

24 MS. HAMEL: Well, (a)(2) is determination

25 of tiers. (b) is when the TICS have to be implemented.

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1 MR. MORGAN: Right.

2 MS. HAMEL: So there is two different

3 subjects. So I didn't want there to be any confusion

4 between (a)(2) and the compliance date in (b)(2).

5 MR. McGHEE: Is that the 15 months that

6 you talked about?

7 MR. MORGAN: No. You had 15 months to

8 come into compliance when you change tiers. (b)(2)

9 actually talks about how long you have to come into

10 compliance with the Class II MICS. So it's two

11 different compliance dates.

12 MR. WILSON: So the initial compliance

13 for everybody?

14 MR. MORGAN: If you move tiers, you have

15 potentially 15 months to come into compliance when you

16 change tiers. That's (a)(2). (b)(2) is how long do you

17 have to come into compliance once the MICS are

18 promulgated.

19 MS. HAMEL: And the comment on page nine

20 was that twelve months appears to be an excessively long

21 time to develop TICS.

22 MR. MORGAN: You have 15 months to come

23 into compliance with the tier change, you have

24 potentially 18 months to come into compliance once the

25 TICS are promulgated. The comment was is that too long,

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1 the initial requirement that you come into compliance.

2 Previously, again, the compliance with

3 any federal regulations, normally you do the six months,

4 you have six months to come into compliance. If you

5 don't, the TGRA will give you an additional six months,

6 which, again, goes back to the fiscal year question I

7 had before.

8 So on this particular question on

9 compliance with the MICS, 18 months instead of twelve

10 months.

11 MR. FISHER: So it's this section right

12 here?

13 MR. MORGAN: Yes. And whether the group

14 is comfortable with those dates I think is Kathi's

15 concern, to make sure that we understand they are two

16 different compliance dates.

17 MR. FISHER: So are you asking the group

18 or are you asking NIGC? Because what I understood the

19 group to do was do a recommendation on the whole 543.3.

20 So if I got that wrong, you need to tell me.

21 MS. HAMEL: We didn't discuss the NIGC's

22 concern.

23 MR. McGHEE: We want to -- your concern

24 was (b)(2), not to be confused with what we discussed in

25 the earlier time frame-wise.

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1 MR. WEST: Well, the draft regs give a

2 period of six months and then an additional six months

3 can be provided. Now the TGWG is saying twelve months

4 and possibly another six, although these are standards

5 that have been in the Federal Register for -- you know,

6 I don't know how long for compliance, typically, I mean

7 before the effective date.

8 MR. WILSON: So how long, when they're

9 published in the register, typically, they're published

10 before the effective date?

11 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: We can

12 determine that at our discretion.

13 MR. CULLOO: What is typical?

14 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Mike?

15 MR. HOENIG: Yes?

16 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Implement

17 ation dates, they vary by whatever the issue is. And

18 clearly, what we're looking to see is how the issue

19 would comply or how they would be able to comply, but

20 there is no set requirement that a rule be implemented

21 at some particular time frame once it's been --

22 MR. HOENIG: After the notice of a

23 proposed rule or after a final rule?

24 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: After a

25 final rule.

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1 MR. HOENIG: So there is a minimum amount

2 of time it has to stay before it can go into effect. It

3 can be longer than that, it just can't be shorter.

4 It's either 30 or 60 days, depending on the kind of rule

5 it is. You have either a minimum 30 days or 60 days.

6 But if you want to expand it beyond that, as we have

7 with some of the rules that haven't gone into effect

8 yet, then that's an option that the commission could do.

9 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: All

10 right. Thank you.

11 MR. WEST: Actually, I would vote for

12 the -- I would prefer the twelve months because of all

13 the delay and everything in getting this out.

14 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: So the

15 twelve months plus the six months?

16 MR. WEST: Yeah.

17 MR. McGHEE: Which is what's proposed.

18 MS. LASH: Robert, can you magnify that?

19 It's hard to see back here.

20 MR. FISHER: Is that better?

21 MS. LASH: Yes, thank you.

22 MR. FISHER: Okay. So that's already

23 contained in the TGWG 543.3 version. So that means we

24 don't have to do anything else with it?

25 Go ahead, Rest.

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1 MR. WEST: I do have one question,

2 though, since we're really operating under no MICS, I

3 guess at this point -- what are we operating in?

4 MR. FISHER: Who are you asking?

5 MR. McGHEE: The second paragraph?

6 MR. WEST: What is in effect right now as

7 far as --

8 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: 2008.

9 MR. WEST: But it's been extended.

10 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Oh, I'm

11 sorry. What was that document? 2006?

12 (Simultaneous discussion)

13 MR. MORGAN: This is a stretch. You did

14 543.3 for Class II for 2006.

15 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: In 2006.

16 MR. MORGAN: I don't think it ever become

17 effective. You proposed new ones that have been

18 postponed. So we still operate under 543.3.

19 MS. HAMEL: 542.

20 MR. MORGAN: 542, I'm sorry, for class

21 purposes as far as what would be --

22 MR. WEST: But after I stated --

23 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: June 27, 2002.

24 MR. HOENIG: So the 2008 is in a final

25 reg but it's never been implemented, it doesn't go into

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1 effect.

2 MR. WEST: My idea was does the

3 committee -- this is something for the committee to

4 think about. Do you want to try to get the regs out

5 quicker? Because it's -- there is a lot of, I don't

6 know, confusion as to what's --

7 MR. MORGAN: My worry is I think somehow,

8 you, again, agency, has to -- has to somehow give some

9 thought process of how does 542.3 and 542.2 mesh

10 together for people that have both Class II and

11 Class III on the floor? Because that was the issue we

12 ran into last time, is you proposed a 543.3, and you

13 tried to make those mesh what was already in effect as

14 542.2. And the operation on the floor made it very

15 difficult. You had to pick one or the other that didn't

16 quite mesh.

17 So for me, it's not a question of do you

18 go fast or do you go slow, it's can you somehow publish

19 something in conjunction so that your Class III MICS

20 line up with your Class II MICS, if you're going to do

21 Class III MICS. I shouldn't assume that's what you're

22 going to do. If you do something, it needs to be a

23 standard that is workable at a front line level. That

24 is my concern for the MICS issue.

25 MR. WEST: What about an entirely

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1 Class II operation? I mean, because they're kind of

2 operating in limbo right now, I guess. That was just a

3 thought.

4 (Simultaneous discussion.)

5 MR. WEST: You're not operating in limbo

6 but --

7 MR. MORGAN: That is a concern, because I

8 know there are several operations out there that are

9 Class II only. I don't know. What do they do about

10 that?

11 MR. McGHEE: What are we following?

12 MR. MORGAN: Well, you guys, you guys,

13 and I know the Salish Kootenai, as well, and a few other

14 operations are purely Class II.

15 MS. HAMEL: We use 542 as our basis and

16 do the best we can to match up Class II against a

17 Class III regulation.

18 MR. McGHEE: We do the same thing. We

19 use the same ones everybody has been using since 2004,

20 because when they tried to put out some that were just

21 for bingo, it became more confusing to us. (Inaudible.)

22 So we do that and we take out any section that applies

23 and doesn't apply and piece it together.

24 MR. MORGAN: Daniel, from your agency's

25 perspective, how do you all view Class II operations

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1 right now when you all go out and perform an audit or

2 have a compliance officer go and check on them? I mean,

3 what are you comparing them to, if anything?

4 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: A

5 checklist?

6 MR. McGHEE: They don't do the electronic

7 gaming section, because it became more complicated. If

8 they did an internal audit, it was way too confusing,

9 you know. We do our internal audit.

10 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Well,

11 Dan, I think your question is it varies by operation and

12 what they've adopted for their TICS.

13 MR. MORGAN: So right now, NIGC field

14 investigative staff go in, look at the operation and

15 what they're doing and audit based on what they're

16 doing.

17 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Well, not

18 the field investigators, the auditors.

19 MR. MORGAN: The auditors, very similar

20 to the same approach that we're advocating right now

21 that you do.

22 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Touche.

23 MR. MORGAN: I got mine in, too.

24 MR. WILSON: You guys are there and you

25 didn't even know it.

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1 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: One of

2 the other reasons why this is so important we get

3 through this process.

4 MR. WEST: So my point was for the

5 Class II operation, would it be better to try to -- I

6 guess you could look at what the final product is and

7 see if you wanted to go ahead and adopt it in advance,

8 or whatever, or before the effective date or the

9 compliance date or whatever. I was just trying to think

10 about that when we were talking about compliance days.

11 MS. HAMEL: I think the biggest

12 difference is terminology. And that will take some time

13 to go look at your TICS and your system of internal

14 controls to make sure they mirror the language in the

15 MICS. So it's just a process and a fine review.

16 Those of us that have been on TGWG

17 forever understand what a financial instrument is.

18 Those that haven't are going to have to then interpret

19 that and how does that apply to their operations. So

20 that's going to take a little longer than, in my

21 opinion, six months.

22 MR. FISHER: Okay. Do we need to do

23 anything more on 543.3 for now?

24 MR. McGHEE: The last sentence is

25 confusing as it relates to the implementation. It does

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1 not indicate whether the TICS or the SICS are the

2 documents being changed.

3 MR. FISHER: Where are you looking at?

4 MR. McGHEE: At your NIGC comments.

5 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Page nine.

6 MS. HAMEL: (b) of that section is

7 referring to TICS.

8 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Is that

9 what you're saying, it's referring to TICS?

10 MR. McGHEE: Yeah, it says come into

11 compliance with the TICS. You all's question is does it

12 indicate whether it's the TICS or the SICS?

13 MR. CULLOO: (2)(b) is TICS and (2)(c) is

14 SICS.

15 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: I'd like to say that

16 all changes necessary (inaudible) with this part,

17 meaning this part, and the part also includes (c). So

18 your TICS would have to come into compliance and then

19 your systems of internal controls would also have to

20 come into compliance within that time frame.

21 MR. FISHER: Okay. So is there anything

22 here that needs to be clarified or revised? Some people

23 have specific ideas about where it should go, but I

24 thought we would do that when we got to section 19,

25 unless you want to go there now. But we don't have a

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1 comparison document for 19 yet.

2 All right. So anything more on 543.3?

3 So, Kathi, when you started the

4 explanation of those sections, you said 543.3 was an

5 important one, kind of skipped over 543.1. So do you

6 want to go back to 543.1 or --

7 MS. HAMEL: Sure.

8 MR. FISHER: -- or do you want to move

9 on?

10 MS. HAMEL: No, we can start with one. I

11 think in 543.1 we just took out any reference to 542.

12 MR. FISHER: So is there any discussion?

13 I know there is no comment or question --

14 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yeah, we

15 didn't have any comment, just cleanup.

16 MR. FISHER: So that means -- are we

17 doing a recommendation here on 543.1 or not?

18 MR. WILSON: Recommendation about --

19 MS. HAMEL: Can I just bring up one

20 question? Should we assume that if there aren't any

21 comments from the NIGC that NIGC is comfortable with the

22 other language?

23 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: In 543.1,

24 yeah, we didn't have any comments on that.

25 MR. FISHER: So I would really caution

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1 against making assumptions. I think you need to check

2 with them.

3 MR. McGHEE: Well, if we just said, okay,

4 we're all good with 543.3 because we only addressed the

5 concerns you had in those two questions, it makes it,

6 like you said, an assumption that they must be okay with

7 the rest of it because they didn't have a comment about

8 it.

9 So to make a blanket statement to accept

10 the whole section without actually looking at the

11 changes TGWG made to the original could be premature.

12 We could only say basically what we discussed. If we

13 went and seen all the changes -- of course, we didn't do

14 that with this, we just kind of discussed their

15 (inaudible). And if we only want to do that, then I

16 assume they have no concerns with the rest.

17 MR. FISHER: Right. So the question is

18 back to you, Dan, about --

19 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: 543.1 is

20 one sentence.

21 MR. FISHER: So that's an easy one.

22 MR. McGHEE: I'm talking about (3) now,

23 because we only discussed a few issues about the whole

24 section. It makes it seem as though those were the only

25 concerns you would have had with those changes.

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1 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yes, yes.

2 And that I think was -- we talked about it earlier, was

3 that -- and I think there was some confusion that we

4 wanted to go line by line through the guidance. I know

5 these aren't guidance questions, these are more on the

6 regulation, but let's work off the comparison and the

7 question that we raised there.

8 MR. McGHEE: So what I'm getting is if we

9 go to a section and we discuss the issues you have

10 written down there and we address those issues as a

11 group and give our opinion or advice on that, the rest

12 of the document you don't want advice on it or you don't

13 need advice unless we just wanted to add to it, correct?

14 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Right, or

15 there -- I'm assuming everybody is agreed to the

16 documents and maybe other members might have some

17 questions that they want to raise.

18 MR. McGHEE: If they have a concern.

19 MR. FISHER: Right. Otherwise, if we do

20 the whole section, then --

21 MR. McGHEE: We assume they're okay, it's

22 okay to assume they didn't have any -- you didn't need

23 our opinion on it?

24 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Right.

25 MR. FISHER: Okay. So what are we doing

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1 about 543.1? Is there a vote?

2 MS. LASH: Test it.

3 MR. FISHER: So if you agree with the

4 change, that one sentence that was proposed by the TGWG,

5 raise your hand, please.

6 Voila.

7 MR. McGHEE: Now do we ask about .3 as a

8 whole?

9 MR. FISHER: We did.

10 MR. McGHEE: I thought you said one.

11 MR. FISHER: We just went out of order

12 because Kathi focused in on 543.3.

13 MR. McGHEE: We did that as a whole, we

14 accepted the whole section?

15 MR. FISHER: Yes.

16 MR. McGHEE: I just wanted to be sure.

17 MR. FISHER: Okay. So now we're going to

18 section 543.4.

19 MR. CULLOO: Don't we have to test 543.3?

20 MR. FISHER: We want to test it again?

21 MR. CULLOO: No, that's all right.

22 MR. McGHEE: I know we tested our little

23 recommendation of the line but --

24 MR. FISHER: So what I put up here was I

25 heard that the recommendation was the entire 543.3

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1 section. And so that's what that says. But if

2 people --

3 MS. LASH: We did already right vote,

4 right?

5 MR. FISHER: Yes. So we're up to four,

6 543.4.

7 MR. WILSON: 543.4, it references the

8 Technical Standards, is that correct? Because this

9 looks like it was narrated -- was left reserved in 2008

10 and that the TGWG has inserted this (inaudible). But

11 I'm just curious why Technical Standards is there when

12 we're in the MICS.

13 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Can you repeat that,

14 please?

15 MR. WILSON: So in 543.4, the addition

16 that the TGWG, or at least that's in this version, says

17 the TGRA may establish and implement additional

18 Technical Standards. But my guess is --

19 MS. HAMEL: I think that's a typo.

20 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: I think that's a

21 mistake.

22 MS. LASH: My guess is that's a typo. We

23 should delete that.

24 MR. WILSON: It should just say

25 additional standards?

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1 MS. LASH: Right.

2 MR. WILSON: So this is something we need

3 to redline, then.

4 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: So just

5 the word "technical"?

6 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Yes.

7 MR. WILSON: We need to redline the blue

8 line.

9 MR. FISHER: So if you actually want me

10 to take it out, I will.

11 MS. LASH: Yes, but we should probably

12 redline it.

13 MR. McGHEE: You have to redline it.

14 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Maybe you could do

15 purple or pink.

16 MR. FISHER: Actually, I will redline it,

17 if you want to, but usually the way that I -- that I

18 track these documents is because then you get redlines

19 on top of redlines and all kinds of strange colors, so

20 if you do a comparison document instead of a redline

21 document, it will show all the changes but it keeps all

22 the redlining in codes out of it. So for instance --

23 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: What about comments?

24 MS. LASH: Is there a bubble off to the

25 side, then, or just nothing?

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1 MR. FISHER: Well, I did this here, so --

2 MS. LASH: Oh, I see, down there.

3 MR. FISHER: Right.

4 MS. LASH: Oh, okay. And so when it

5 comes up in the comparison document, when you see the

6 summary, it will show that it's been -- it will be

7 actually -- we'll see the deletion up there on the side

8 in a bubble. And it's -- then you have a clean document

9 that has all the changes in it and then you have one

10 that shows what the changes are to the TGWG document.

11 So I can -- we will see if this system

12 will work. If not, then I'll go back and redline the

13 documents.

14 All right. Is there anything more in

15 543.4?

16 MR. WILSON: I have another comment, if I

17 may.

18 This wording, and I talked about this our

19 last time, about as stringent or more stringent, and we

20 talked about the concept of mitigating the risk for

21 something. So I would have that same question here,

22 that depending on what -- well, to be consistent I guess

23 with what we are saying in the preamble --

24 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: I think we were

25 going to add those to all the other sections.

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1 MR. WILSON: That's what I'm pointing

2 out, that it's not really here. And so just to avoid

3 confusion --

4 MR. McGHEE: You made this recommendation

5 in the Technical Standards. It's the same language.

6 You want to copy that over to this recommendation?

7 MR. WILSON: Yes.

8 MR. FISHER: It's this language here, if

9 I got this right. So it's the language that we added in

10 the Technical Standards?

11 MR. McGHEE: 557.5 is where it is in the

12 Technical Standards.

13 MR. WILSON: Yeah, I'm not bringing it up

14 to debate it again, I just wanted to point it out.

15 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: We did it in bingo.

16 MR. FISHER: Yeah, it's in bingo.

17 MR. WILSON: I thought that's what we

18 agreed on.

19 MR. FISHER: Yeah. See, it's right

20 there, actually. So this is the working draft of the

21 summary from the Rapid City meeting.

22 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Can you make it

23 bigger?

24 MR. FISHER: I'm trying to get there, I'm

25 trying.

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1 So the language that we added is that

2 language right there in blue. Can you see that?

3 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Can you

4 make it bigger?

5 MR. FISHER: How is that?

6 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: There you

7 go.

8 MR. FISHER: Okay. Can you see it now?

9 Okay, let me just go up. There is one other section

10 where we did that, right? And then there is that note

11 that we did that recommendation that said you have to

12 put this in all other provisions in 543.

13 So where would that go in? So hold on a

14 second. I'm sorry I'm moving so slowly.

15 So it's this thing, it's really necessary

16 to mitigate the identified risks. Is that what you're

17 saying? So in place of this, in place of that?

18 MR. WILSON: In place of the stringent.

19 MR. FISHER: The as stringent or more

20 stringent than language?

21 MR. WILSON: Yes. Robert, if you could

22 just read it with the change.

23 MR. FISHER: Yeah, I'll blow it up and

24 make it bigger in one second.

25 So it says here TGRA may establish and

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1 implement additional standards that are necessary to

2 mitigate the risks identified in this part. And I'm

3 pretty sure that tracks that language necessary to

4 mitigate the risks identified by the standards of this

5 section, is what we said in the other one. Right?

6 MR. WILSON: And I would just point out

7 that the term "risk," I mean, it might end up being a

8 term that is adopted, you know, in the control standards

9 or whatever, but we're talking about that same concept.

10 And I wonder if I could get just get a

11 quick feedback from NIGC on this. I'm not sure that

12 it's clear, at least from my perspective, this term

13 stringent or more stringent.

14 Why my tribe feels that that wording is

15 problematic, because we have that discussion currently

16 with our regulators at the state level about this

17 stringent. And the reason this falls back, in my mind,

18 to NIGC is because in our compact, the Class III MICS

19 were adopted as regulated by the NIGC. So that language

20 is important. Whereas you guys might be okay to grant a

21 variance even though you don't regulate Class III in

22 that sense, but because you created the Class III MICS

23 that have been adopted, our state is not open to that

24 kind of interpretation.

25 So that's why it's important to me that

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1 what -- how it's worded here in Class II I think can

2 ultimately have a carryover effect in Class III. So

3 this idea of stringency seems to be a difficult concept

4 to prove.

5 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: It

6 doesn't appear to be a problem for me. I'm not sure if

7 Rest has any maybe issue with performing his function,

8 but --

9 MR. WEST: I think in some places it's

10 described as a level of control or -- does that also

11 cause issues with the state?

12 MR. WILSON: Yeah, because what happens

13 is we end up going back to the words, and then it

14 becomes very interpretational about, well, is this

15 really an improved level of control or less of a

16 control? And we just don't have success in that.

17 And if I were arguing that I'm mitigating

18 the risk, I can argue that. But that's not an argument

19 that can come into play under the current wording in the

20 MICS. So I'm precluded from making the point that I

21 think I can make by virtue of the words.

22 MR. FISHER: Okay. Anybody else have

23 anything else on 543.4?

24 Okay. So then why don't we just see

25 what -- let's test whether people agree with the TGWG

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1 version with these changes.

2 So if you're in agreement with that

3 section 543.4 with those two changes that we've talked

4 about, which I can read them again if you want, raise

5 your hand.

6 Okay, that would be unanimous. You

7 wouldn't believe how important it was to actually have

8 this stuff highlighted that you agreed to when I went

9 back through this.

10 And I'm counting on you double checking

11 this.

12 All right. So, well, we're at ten of

13 3:00. So do you want to move to .6 or do you want to

14 take a break?

15 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I

16 think .6 we can get done pretty quick.

17 MR. WILSON: Yeah, let's finish .6.

18 MR. FISHER: All right, .6. Let me just

19 drop down here.

20 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: It seems

21 like it's just cleanup.

22 MS. HAMEL: I think it was a typo.

23 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yeah, the

24 gasb.gov doesn't exist.

25 MS. HAMEL: Yeah, and I think we took it

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1 out of one section and we need to take it out of the

2 other. That should just come out.

3 MR. FISHER: So we're taking out dot.gov.

4 So do you want to start there?

5 MR. McGHEE: The only question is why

6 they want GASB to be -- what discussion of it, where,

7 what.

8 MR. WEST: Well, GASB stands for the

9 Governmental Accounting Standards Boards, and it applies

10 to tribal gaming operations. And in fact, probably a

11 lot of the entities here, their financial statements are

12 on GASB format.

13 So I just wanted to point that out, that

14 there may be some GASB requirements, I'm not familiar

15 with any, but GASB may have some effect on those.

16 MS. HAMEL: Isn't the difference mostly

17 just reporting? I'm not aware of any accounting

18 principles.

19 MR. WEST: I mean, generally accepted

20 accounting principles is the main principal to be in

21 compliance with.

22 MR. FISHER: So what is it that we need

23 to -- that you want to talk about? Is it whether it

24 should be deleted or what does it provide or is --

25 MR. WEST: I just want to bring up for

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1 discussion if anyone knew of any GASB requirements that

2 would apply to this section. I don't really know of

3 any, either, but I thought there might be some.

4 MR. McGHEE: So the recommendation would

5 be that we don't see the need for GASB to be mentioned

6 in this section as far as a recommendation and that we

7 agree with the change.

8 MR. FISHER: Well, because you already

9 took it out of yours, right?

10 MR. McGHEE: It was never there.

11 MS. THOMAS: Well, it was removed out of

12 one section and left in another. So for consistency on

13 the second one, it should be removed.

14 MR. McGHEE: The Internet.

15 MR. FISHER: So that we got rid of the

16 Internet.

17 MS. HAMEL: I would delete the whole

18 sentence, for more information.

19 MR. FISHER: So you would delete the

20 whole sentence?

21 MS. HAMEL: Yes.

22 MR. FISHER: So I'm sorry, I'm lagging

23 behind here in terms of what you guys are doing. So you

24 want to test the TGWG version of 543.6 with that change,

25 right? Even though that's not quite right. So that

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1 deletes the whole sentence, I just deleted the whole

2 sentence out of there.

3 MR. McGHEE: The second recommendation

4 was that we saw no need for GASB to be mentioned in this

5 area, which was a concern.

6 MR. FISHER: Okay, I got it. That would

7 be it, those three things? Can you see that?

8 MR. McGHEE: Just the whole version as

9 is.

10 MR. FISHER: Yes, the whole version as is

11 with these changes, with the change in number one and no

12 mention of GASB.

13 MR. McGHEE: What is number three, what

14 is the purpose of your number three you have?

15 MR. FISHER: It's to say that you took

16 the whole rest of it. It's the way to track, because

17 there is multiple sections in there. So it's really --

18 it's really that with this -- with the changes in number

19 two, right? It's the version proposed by the TGWG with

20 that deletion, no mention of GASB.

21 Okay, everybody with it?

22 MR. WEST: Is that consistent with what

23 you've done on 543.1 and 543.3?

24 MR. McGHEE: We only put down what we

25 did. Like that number one wouldn't need to be there.

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1 MR. CULLOO: We've never done it on any

2 other one.

3 MR. FISHER: I've been doing it the whole

4 time.

5 MR. WEST: I wasn't watching.

6 MR. FISHER: So seriously, if you're not

7 recommending the whole thing of the TGWG, then I'm

8 confused.

9 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: He's saying we're

10 doing three things. We're approving the whole section,

11 we're approving the sentence to be deleted from four,

12 and then no mention of GASB, like the comment.

13 MR. WEST: Okay.

14 MR. MAGEE: Don't you usually highlight

15 it in yellow?

16 MR. FISHER: Yes, that's what you

17 actually do. See, that's the way I've been tracking,

18 because anything highlighted in yellow is a consensus

19 recommendation. So yes.

20 So should we test it?

21 MR. WHEATLEY: Yes.

22 MR. FISHER: Okay. So if you're in

23 agreement with 543.6 with those changes and the

24 recommendation, please raise your hand.

25 Okay, that's it. Good to go.

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1 Okay. Now it's 3:00. Let's take a

2 break.

3 (Recess taken.)

4 MR. FISHER: Okay. What do you say we

5 start again?

6 I made it bigger up on the screen. How

7 is that?

8 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Much better.

9 MR. FISHER: You might even be able to

10 read it from the audience, too.

11 So next on our agenda is, if I have that

12 right, is card games.

13 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: We're

14 skipping to --

15 MR. FISHER: No, card games is next on

16 the list, because card games was what had been on the

17 list at the end of Rapid City. So then we moved it over

18 here.

19 Okay, so we're going to do card games.

20 Robin?

21 MS. LASH: I just wanted to mention, I,

22 per my electronic equipment here, I got an update on the

23 checklist. Apparently, the main communicator between

24 the TGWG and the NIGC spoke about the checklist, and the

25 Tribal Gaming Working Group was told that there was no

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1 rush on the checklist because the checklist may change

2 according to the document, how it unfolds through these

3 meetings.

4 But we do have a significant number of

5 checklists already completed and those are being sent to

6 me. And I'll go ahead and print those out and hand them

7 out to everybody tomorrow. So just an update on that.

8 MR. WEST: Wouldn't electronic be better

9 and just save the paper?

10 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Because

11 we want to put it online on our Web site.

12 MR. FISHER: Send them over to me and

13 I'll distribute them, assuming they can be received.

14 Maybe the way to do it is, Robin, why

15 don't you send it to me and send it to, I guess, to Rita

16 or -- so they can get posted so people can access it

17 okay, send it to me and I'll just forward it on. Okay.

18 Thanks for that.

19 All right. So we're moving into card

20 games. And we should have -- everybody should have a

21 revised version of the comparison document. So one was

22 handed out for Rapid City, and then a new one was

23 provided in the set that went out last week. So it

24 should have a date on it of November 30th. And this, I

25 guess, is also the first place where there is

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1 guidance-related things that we're going to need to talk

2 about.

3 So do you want to start with the TGWG

4 overview of this section or is it -- is it kind of

5 self-exploratory and we should just go to your questions

6 and comments?

7 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Remember,

8 we didn't compare (a) and (b), because those were

9 standard throughout the whole section. So --

10 although -- we're at nine.

11 MR. FISHER: We're out of sequence in the

12 regulation because that's the way the work plan got set

13 up.

14 MS. HAMEL: I think we wanted to wait for

15 our pull tab expert, too.

16 MR. WHEATLEY: She couldn't make it.

17 MR. FISHER: So we could go to pull tabs

18 instead of card games. It's just up to you. On the

19 agenda, it's card games.

20 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: We're

21 here, right?

22 MS. HAMEL: It doesn't matter.

23 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: We're

24 here at nine, right? Let's do nine.

25 MR. FISHER: Okay. I got my computer

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1 open to nine, 543.9.

2 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

3 the first on our comparison document, we highlight old,

4 I guess, in the 2010 draft, 543.9(b), which has I guess

5 been replaced with computer applications. But I just

6 wanted to talk about count (inaudible) and what was the

7 reasoning behind moving that or --

8 MR. FISHER: You have to go to that

9 comparison document.

10 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: We're

11 just trying to understand what was the reasoning behind

12 the movement of that section. If it was moved, was it

13 moved to another section or was it incorporated into

14 something else?

15 MR. WHEATLEY: It looks like it was moved

16 to 21.

17 MR. MORGAN: From recollection, Dan,

18 following our thought process at the work group, it was

19 because if you work in drop and count, you don't really

20 care so much if you go in what the card inventory is.

21 You have a specific job function in mind.

22 And so that was the purpose, we moved it

23 to 21 to cover all the drop and count issues. Whether

24 you're dropping an electronic game or dropping a card

25 game, you're still worried about the same controls and

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1 risks, and to try to make sure that if you're on the

2 floor, you're looking at one section.

3 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Okay. So

4 you just moved it to streamline to make it clearer for

5 the TGRA?

6 MS. HAMEL: Yes.

7 MR. FISHER: Where did it go?

8 MS. HAMEL: Dot 21.

9 MR. MORGAN: 543.21.

10 MR. FISHER: Okay. So was there any

11 other kind of overview that anybody wanted to present,

12 or do you want to just keep going? I'll just go down

13 and start with 543.9(g).

14 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: (g).

15 MR. WEST: The comment is the draft

16 standard is silent as to exchange of cash and cash

17 equivalent and (inaudible). So we're just wondering why

18 those were deleted. Because typically, card games don't

19 have a card room bank located in the card room.

20 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: It does

21 appear it's addressed in the guidance, isn't it?

22 MS. HAMEL: It is addressed in the

23 guidance (inaudible). We didn't name all the banks, but

24 any cash or cash equivalents or their exchanges were

25 identified in the guidance document. And then 543.14

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1 talks about cash or cash equivalents in all areas, not

2 just in the cage. So those transactions that would be

3 involved in other areas.

4 MR. WEST: And then down under the

5 guidance, the comment was controls related to counting

6 and (inaudible) once per shift don't appear to be

7 addressed.

8 MR. FISHER: So in other words, it

9 doesn't say anything in the guidance about counting once

10 per shift?

11 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Does it

12 say it in 543.14? Is that what you're saying, Kathi?

13 MS. HAMEL: It's addressed in 543.14.

14 And if you issue a bank and return a bank, there is a

15 count.

16 MR. WEST: But this is within the card

17 room. I mean, would it be more effective to have the

18 standard in the card room, card games section?

19 MS. HAMEL: Isn't that what (g) says,

20 that you have controls for cash and cash equivalents?

21 MR. WEST: I'm sorry?

22 MS. HAMEL: That's what (g) says, cash or

23 cash equivalents must be controlled in a manner designed

24 to prevent, 543.9(g).

25 MR. FISHER: It's right up here on the

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1 screen, for those of you looking at the screen.

2 MR. WEST: Yeah, it's guidance as far as

3 the accounting and the bank. It's a general statement

4 about cash and cash equivalents throughout the MICS.

5 But even the guidance is silent as far as that issue.

6 MR. FISHER: So is the problem that it's

7 in a different section or is the problem about what it

8 says here?

9 MR. MORGAN: That was going to be my

10 question. Does the guidance for this section or does

11 the guidance for 543.14 cover that adequately or not?

12 MR. WEST: .9.

13 MR. MORGAN: .9(g) points to 543.14,

14 which has its own guidance documents, as well, that

15 support it.

16 MR. WEST: I thought part of the intent

17 of the committee was to have, you know, the controls

18 within that section. There is a difference between the

19 cage, typically, and the tables (inaudible).

20 MR. MORGAN: And sort of a shift, I think

21 maybe this is where we placed it at, may be an issue.

22 Before the MICS, you talked about like the bingo game,

23 you tried to address everything associated with bingo

24 within bingo, and then you may have addressed it

25 somewhere else generally, which would require the reader

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1 to go in and read the bingo section, if you were talking

2 about drop and count, to read the drop and count, too.

3 Because there may be something about dropping and

4 counting over there, and there may be something about

5 surveillance in bingo, and it may be in the surveillance

6 section, too.

7 So we tried to move it, generally, to a

8 location. So whether cash and cash equivalents, we

9 didn't really try to capture it around the activity that

10 was taking place, we were generally trying to address

11 how you would control cash and cash equivalents. It

12 doesn't make any difference what activity is taking

13 place, these are the controls that need to be, I guess,

14 implemented.

15 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: So we

16 understand that part, you're obviously still attempting

17 to organize things in a morphological fashion that are

18 common areas. So we just need to just figure out if

19 that's something that would be better addressed through

20 actually putting some particulars in this regulation.

21 MR. CULLOO: It also seems to be

22 repeating the same standards over and over and over.

23 MS. HAMEL: We're saying it differently

24 in a different standard. So if I'm at a card games

25 bank, do I count it differently there than I do in bingo

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1 or pull tabs or in the cage?

2 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: And

3 you're saying it should be counted the same regardless?

4 MS. HAMEL: It should be the same.

5 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Okay.

6 MR. MORGAN: And tell me if I'm reading

7 this wrong, this is not my area, but on 543.14(g)(2), we

8 do have a statement there saying the cage involved

9 inventories, including coins and (inaudible) vault,

10 should be counted by at least two agents, attested by

11 signature and recorded (inaudible) at the end of each

12 shift during which the activity took place. And there

13 is similar language in the guidance documents, which, at

14 least in my mind, talks about your controls related to

15 counting the card room bank once per shift.

16 While we don't reference the card room

17 bank specifically. We do say if there is some changes

18 in a cage or vault, generally, this is what you're

19 supposed to do, no matter if it's the card room bank or

20 whatever, if it's your main bank. That's at least how

21 we approached it.

22 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: All

23 right. I'm fine with that. Do you have anything else?

24 MR. WEST: I'm still -- my sense is it

25 belongs in card games.

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1 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: (Inaudible.)

2 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Page

3 nine?

4 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: (k).

5 MR. WEST: My perspective is take it from

6 an internal auditor's perspective. You're an internal

7 auditor and you go in and do the internal audit for card

8 games. And if you're using the standards in the

9 guidance documents, you would go through this and

10 possibly not know that the main card room banks are even

11 being counted down. So to me, it's logical to have the

12 function in the appropriate section.

13 MS. HAMEL: But it's in the guidance

14 document, open, close and count.

15 MR. WEST: Of what section?

16 MS. HAMEL: It's page three in the

17 guidance document for 543.9.

18 MR. WEST: It talks about the table

19 inventories there, at least the thing I'm looking at.

20 MS. HAMEL: Oh, right.

21 MR. WEST: It doesn't speak to the

22 (inaudible).

23 MR. WILSON: Does that language need to

24 be added?

25 MR. RAMOS: When you say main card room

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1 bank, do you mean in the cage?

2 MR. WEST: No, in the card room.

3 Typically, like the card room here, I don't know if they

4 do or not, but a lot of them has an imprest bank, you

5 know, where they check out the table banks and stuff.

6 And there could be a lot of -- there is coins, there is

7 chips.

8 MR. MORGAN: Rest, what if you don't

9 follow the typical? What if your main vault or your

10 imprest bank, when you're operating off that, and if you

11 unnecessarily prescribe a procedure that you have to

12 have something, you therefore limited those innovation

13 options that you may want to do based upon your

14 operation and whether you deem that a material risk or

15 not.

16 Is there some concern there? I mean, I

17 understand how typically it is performed, but is that

18 your -- I mean, is that a concern you have, as well?

19 MR. WEST: I'm not -- can you repeat your

20 question?

21 MR. MORGAN: You said typically you have

22 an imprest bank for your card room, but it's not

23 required.

24 MR. WEST: Right.

25 MR. MORGAN: Is what you're requiring on

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1 the counting of card rooms once per shift in the card

2 room, does that unnecessarily detail out what is a

3 typical situation?

4 MR. WEST: No. You can -- anything in

5 the MICS can be nonapplicable. I mean, that's another

6 thing I think people get bogged down in. There is N/As

7 on whole portions of sections. There is nothing being

8 required as far as operating the structure of the casino

9 in the MICS, that I know of. I mean, especially in this

10 instance.

11 If you have a main card room bank, it

12 should be counted down each shift. If you don't have

13 one, it's N/A, you go forward.

14 MR. CALLAGHAN: We did away with our

15 satellite and we use the main bank.

16 MR. MORGAN: No, I agree, and that's why

17 I'm wondering is it a -- do you think you have to have

18 them in the card section as opposed to the 543.3

19 section? I'm trying to figure out is it we agree upon

20 the language and it's okay and it's just a matter of

21 where the language is placed?

22 MR. WEST: No. My concern is it should

23 be in the appropriate section. If you're talking about

24 a card room bank, it should be in the card room section.

25 MR. MORGAN: But if you take that one

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1 step higher and you say I'm talking about a bank, a

2 vault, a cage, I'm not allocating it to the card room.

3 MR. WEST: Then that's covered in 543.14,

4 is my understanding from Kathi.

5 MR. MORGAN: Right. But I'm trying to

6 see it from your -- but you don't think it is covered if

7 it's a card room bank?

8 MR. CULLOO: What's the definition of a

9 bank? A bank is a bank whether it's in a card room or a

10 cage.

11 MR. WILSON: It seems to me that what

12 Rest is saying is that there is a risk that that bank

13 might not get included in a review if it isn't

14 identified somewhere that that -- if somebody just takes

15 it literally and, remember, you preface it by saying,

16 well, if I'm coming in as an auditor or somebody to do

17 this review, I need to know that you're using that -- if

18 you're using a card room bank that that's being counted

19 down.

20 So the issue is that there is a risk that

21 something might be missed, I guess, if it's not spelled

22 out.

23 MS. HAMEL: With that title?

24 MR. WILSON: Yes.

25 MR. MORGAN: My only comment would be if

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1 I'm coming in auditing and it truly says if it's cash or

2 cash equivalent it has to be controlled or established

3 in sub part 543.14, I'm, as an auditor, pointed there to

4 go look.

5 MR. FISHER: So this is a similar issue

6 to what we talked about in terms of the AUP and putting

7 all the accounting and auditing things in one section.

8 It's a different organizing structure than what you're

9 saying, because if I'm understanding you correctly,

10 they're lumping things that apply to multiple sections

11 in one section and then saying in the individual

12 sections to go look at -- this other section applies to

13 this, go look in that other section.

14 And so instead of -- and so part of the

15 work that you did, if I understand it correctly, is to

16 take the things out of all the individual sections and

17 create an overall section and then point people to that

18 overall section.

19 So the question would be -- I hear you

20 saying you'd rather see it in the individual sections,

21 that's the way it is right now. Is there -- can you

22 imagine a way that it could work and still cover the

23 things that you're saying are important if you have

24 this -- use this other organizing system?

25 MR. WEST: My issue is practicality of

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1 having an internal auditor come in. Maybe it's your

2 in-house internal auditor, maybe you hired it out and

3 they come in, and in this six-month period card games is

4 part of the audit they're going to do. Maybe they're

5 going to do 543.19 down the road.

6 Typically, these situations have an

7 imprest amount of money. If you're going to count the

8 tables down, you should count the main room bank down,

9 and that might equal $10,000, if the card game is

10 (inaudible). To do half, to just do the tables is not

11 logical to me. I think it should (inaudible.)

12 And also, if I've got a poker supervisor,

13 I want to hand him this section here and say you need to

14 read these controls and see if you have any issues with

15 them, if you've got -- developed your own operating

16 procedures. Because they need to develop operating

17 procedures for counting down these tables or dropping

18 them in a drop box, counting the card room bank,

19 whatever else that's covered in the section.

20 So to me it's better for your external

21 auditors, your internal auditors, possibly your

22 operations personnel, to have everything that's

23 logically placed in the same section.

24 MR. CULLOO: I've never seen an operation

25 in a card room where they didn't know they had to do

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1 openers and closers and fills and credits. And they

2 would know to go to that spot, if it tells them to go

3 there. I mean, that's an industry norm, that you never

4 do it any way but that. The shift comes on, you open

5 the table, you've got two people independently count

6 down the opener. And then at the end of the shift, when

7 you close, you have two people independently counting

8 down as closer. Open imprest banks, you're doing, you

9 know, imprest from the bank to the tables, an even

10 exchange. I mean, and at the end of the shift they

11 count down the imprest bank.

12 It's a fixed amount, where on the tables

13 it's a floater, because you're buying off the table and

14 all that. So what you want to do is look at your fills,

15 your credits and your open inventories. Everyone knows

16 that. I don't see how anyone could come to a situation

17 at the table and not realize that. And that simply

18 tells them go there if you don't understand it.

19 MR. WILSON: I think I have to stand up

20 with my fellow auditor over here and say, just so that

21 everybody is understanding, I don't think you're fully

22 maybe getting what Rest is saying.

23 Typically in an audit, you know, you

24 break out work programs or things by components. So

25 what happens is, you know, when we're talking about

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1 cash, well, there is cash throughout the casino. And

2 all of those different components make up what I'll call

3 the cash cycle, or whatever you want to call it. And

4 usually to effectively audit that, you would look at the

5 entire cycle, which means you're counting banks here,

6 you're counting banks here, this entire piece, or you're

7 splitting that up.

8 I believe, Rest, and correct me if I'm

9 wrong, his concern is that in auditing, when you break

10 up these work programs and do things, that a component

11 of that cycle may get missed if it's not all inclusive

12 in where you would typically expect the cash cycle or

13 the revenue cycle, whatever, you know, the term is to

14 be.

15 So I think that's -- that's what he's

16 saying, is that from an audit perspective, not from an

17 operational perspective, but from an audit perspective,

18 it can get lost when you're trying to -- unless you

19 audit the entire thing 100 percent, but if you split it

20 out into sections and say, you know, we're going to

21 audit this section of the MICS today, but if there is a

22 component of that section of the MICS in another section

23 of the MICS, either it has to be very clear that you

24 always have to reference that core piece or you ensure

25 that all the components that make up that cycle are in

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1 one section of the MICS.

2 And I don't know that there is an easy

3 answer to this, because we struggle with this now with

4 the MICS. You know, you're looking at one section but

5 then there is another section in the MICS that might

6 also deal with this or, in the case of, in our state, we

7 have these various appendices that we have to reference,

8 as well.

9 But I think to the extent that however

10 your documentation is designed, if it allows people to

11 segment it out and audit off of that is an important

12 consideration, you know, from the auditing perspective.

13 So I mean, he's exactly right that even

14 with the external auditors, you know, audit is time and

15 money. So the less that the auditor has to figure out

16 in terms of piecing together the picture of what they're

17 trying to audit, the more efficient that audit is going

18 to be.

19 MR. CULLOO: I think that it's written

20 there, it's clear for the auditor what it includes. And

21 I don't think it adds any time or any confusion. I

22 mean, it's a simple -- especially an auditor, they ought

23 to understand, they ought to read a document real

24 clearly and understand what needs to be done.

25 MR. FISHER: Let's just take a pause for

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1 a moment.

2 So let's go to Kathi.

3 THE WITNESS: Well, I think the general

4 statement about controlling cash and cash equivalents in

5 card games is very specific in 543.9(g). You've got to

6 control it. Your TICS would say what kind of banks you

7 would have. And you may not call it a main card room

8 bank, you may call it a satellite bank, you may call it

9 a podium bank, you may call it whatever. But the intent

10 of (g) is to control that cash or cash equivalent, and

11 your TICS and your system internal controls tell you

12 that those banks exist. And then your checklist,

13 whether it be an internal auditor or an external

14 auditor, would include are they counting the bank as

15 their proper documentation, are there transfers,

16 et cetera. I believe that was the intent of (g).

17 MR. WEST: But you provide specific

18 guidance in the guidance documents on your table counts

19 but you don't on the main card room bank.

20 MS. HAMEL: We do under cash and cash

21 equivalents.

22 MR. WEST: And this could be a large

23 amount of money in your bank and all of it has to

24 balance out, depending on how many tables you have open,

25 because all of it typically adds up to a big imprest

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1 amount.

2 And also on another point, you don't have

3 fills and credits. This is card games. So you have

4 imprest tables, typically.

5 MS. HAMEL: Right.

6 MR. WEST: This is not table games, this

7 is card games. So there is not a lot of flow. If the

8 poker room is charged with maybe $10,000 imprest that

9 they should have out there, then that's what they should

10 have, at a point in time.

11 MR. MORGAN: So, Rest, could you take

12 language from 543.14 and move it over and that would

13 satisfy your concern there, because the information

14 would be addressed there? Because, you know, while our

15 group may have thought it was redundant and didn't need

16 to, there may be areas that you didn't find necessarily

17 redundant and it makes you rest easier. Again, we're

18 not arguing about language, it's about placement of

19 where the language is. We don't need to be going around

20 in a circle for no reason. If we've addressed it

21 somewhere else, then we can just pick it up and move it.

22 MR. FISHER: So that would mean looking

23 at section 14 and seeing -- 543.14 and seeing whether

24 the way it was laid out there could be moved or repeated

25 or restated in some way in 543.9, whether you're fixing

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1 the guidance or whether you're changing the regulation.

2 MS. HAMEL: And I'd like to bring up one

3 other point, is when the TGWG worked through each one of

4 these sections, the reference to managing or controlling

5 cash and cash equivalents was different in every single

6 section.

7 And so the risk is, when you go put it

8 back in each section, the control, most likely, will be

9 different. And the way you control it is different in

10 bingo than card games, than cage, than pull tabs. And

11 that's why we pulled it out and put it in where we did

12 and said develop controls that are the same. They

13 shouldn't be any different depending on where the money

14 is located.

15 MR. WILSON: Does 543.14, Rest, does --

16 within that section, does it address the concern you

17 have about the table banks?

18 MR. WEST: I don't have concern about the

19 table bank. And again, this is guidance, we're talking

20 about the guidance.

21 Where are you looking in 543.14?

22 MR. WILSON: I'm just saying in general

23 in that document. I just want to establish first that

24 the risk that you're concerned about is addressed in the

25 guidance document.

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1 Do you know, Kathi? Is this specific

2 concern in --

3 MS. HAMEL: If the word "counting" is

4 missing, then that's a significant change. But the

5 guidance document says there has to be controls for bank

6 issuance and return and there has to be exchanges. So

7 if the word "counting" needs to be added --

8 MR. WHEATLEY: I mean, I think you can

9 easily take a section of that and insert it in the

10 guidance under the card room section. And I don't think

11 that would be an issue at all, if that's the guidance

12 that you wanted to offer up in those documents.

13 MR. FISHER: Well, you heard the

14 concerns. And there is some suggestions for how to

15 address the concerns. Do you want to -- how do you want

16 to do this? Do you want to ask whether those -- whether

17 those things would meet the concerns or whether you want

18 to address -- just put a specific recommendation to the

19 NIGC with respect to how to fix it?

20 Michele?

21 MS. STACONA: I've got a question. In

22 talking about imprest banks or however you do your card

23 room at your property, talking about Rest's concern

24 about being counted each shift or whatever, you're

25 including that in, I believe, in (g)(2), right, which

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1 talks about your cage and vault inventories, which

2 imprest being one of them, correct?

3 MR. WEST: Typically, that wouldn't be

4 covered on your -- I mean, it could be covered under

5 your cage inventory sheet. But since it's not

6 (inaudible) responsibility, generally, of cage

7 inventory, I don't think a cage supervisor would be

8 signing the document that they're attesting to the --

9 that that $10,000 is part of their inventory, because

10 they don't have responsibility for it.

11 MR. WHEATLEY: Unless for some reason it

12 returns to the cage at the end of the --

13 MS. STACONA: Yeah, in our property it

14 returns to the cage, so it shows up on your main bank.

15 So it depends on how each property does

16 it where this is going to fall into. And everybody's

17 concern about cage and vault may be something different

18 to -- you know, may not include imprest, where at my

19 property it does.

20 So you may have some issues here.

21 Because if this went out like that, if you say cage and

22 vault, to me it's not going to mean -- it may not mean

23 imprest to some people in everything that's included in

24 there.

25 MR. FISHER: Okay. Where are we?

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1 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

2 we've raised an issue. And however the group wants to

3 address it, take it into consideration and move on or --

4 MR. FISHER: Maybe we need to empower the

5 group to -- I mean, put it aside for now and empower

6 some smaller group to talk about different ways to

7 address the concerns and come back with a proposal to

8 the TAC.

9 MR. WILSON: May I just have one second

10 here?

11 MR. CULLOO: So you agree that an imprest

12 bank would be a satellite window?

13 MR. WEST: It depends. I mean, every

14 operation is different. Typically, it would be covered

15 under the poker room responsibility for accountability.

16 MR. CULLOO: But you probably can't

17 identify what it's called in every property.

18 MR. WEST: Well, I don't think we should

19 say that. I just said a typical main card room bank is

20 a pretty generic term in the gaming industry.

21 MR. CULLOO: So if that said cage, vault,

22 card room inventory and satellite windows --

23 MR. WEST: No, that's -- that's getting

24 away from my point of trying to get as much guidance as

25 possible in each -- in the appropriate section.

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1 And again, if I handed this section off

2 to an internal auditor, they would probably go through

3 this. They could miss the whole point of counting --

4 verifying the (inaudible).

5 MR. CULLOO: If I told them to go to that

6 section and they missed that, then they're not a very

7 good auditor.

8 MR. WEST: Well, you would be surprised.

9 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: If I was an auditor

10 and I was doing 543.9 on (g), you know, it refers to

11 543.14. I think that would tell me that I should look

12 there and that this section also is -- you know, this

13 section needs to be looked at when you're doing this

14 audit.

15 MR. FISHER: Okay. So let's just -- let

16 me just try this again and see if this works, because

17 people still need some time to move through this.

18 I mean, you can either make the

19 recommendation the way it is, and you've heard what the

20 concerns are, or you can -- we can do some work,

21 continue to do some work here around the full table or

22 in a smaller group to try to figure out how to address

23 the concerns that have been raised.

24 So what's your preference?

25 MR. WILSON: Well, I mean, speaking for

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1 me, I don't know that this requires a subgroup to -- I

2 mean, I sense that we're all understanding that there is

3 a potential piece here that could get overlooked if

4 there isn't direct reference. I would put a caveat with

5 that, though, that typically, in any internal audit or

6 external audit, we perform a walk-through of any process

7 to make sure that your understanding of the process is,

8 in fact, in line with how it's actually operating before

9 you conduct the audit.

10 And so in that regard, a good

11 walk-through would normally trigger the here is what we

12 have, here is the type of banks that we have, here is --

13 you know, just what our operation looks like or what we

14 have.

15 So I guess the more fundamental question

16 for me is do we have to make the document to such an

17 extent that, you know, for lack of a better term, it

18 idiot proofs the document so that an auditor who only

19 has six months of experience versus somebody that has

20 ten years -- I guess I'm not sure. Is the onus on the

21 regulation to account for that or is the onus on the

22 auditor to do what they should be doing?

23 So I hear the concern. My issue, though,

24 is that I'm afraid we're going to run into this same

25 theme over and over and over in this type of what's

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1 being proposed here. And one has to come to the

2 conclusion in their own mind, who are we making the

3 regulation for in that regard? And I would just be

4 concerned that, just like we don't necessarily want to

5 create regulations for the poorest performer in the

6 country, I don't know that we can make these so specific

7 as to, you know, idiot proof them because there are -- I

8 don't know. So I'm not sure -- I just think that the

9 same theme is going to exist in this type of

10 documentation.

11 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I agree

12 with you, Tom. I think this is just an area that you

13 take under consideration. These are the areas that

14 we've expressed, and proceed however you guys deem

15 appropriate.

16 MR. FISHER: Well, this provision is in

17 every -- basically, in every section. So it's -- it's a

18 fundamental way in which the document and the structure

19 is proposed. And so people have said various times it

20 points in this direction, it does this. And what I keep

21 hearing from this side of the table is it doesn't --

22 there is still concerns, it doesn't work, it doesn't fit

23 in the way it is.

24 And so the question is, right, you have

25 to take this -- you have to figure out how to deal with

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1 this not just for this section but throughout. It may

2 be that this is just the place where it's most

3 highlighted because of the way the guidance is written.

4 I don't know.

5 So are we ready to move on to the next

6 section in here or do you want to consider this more or

7 what's the -- what do you want to do?

8 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: We

9 highlighted our issues.

10 MR. CALLAGHAN: Is 14 on our radar?

11 MR. FISHER: Eventually.

12 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: It will

13 be. Not today.

14 MR. FISHER: Okay, because there are

15 other things in this -- this is an 18-page comparison

16 document. All right. So we're done with (g), or is

17 there anything else in (g) before we move to (e)?

18 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: They

19 don't go in order.

20 MR. FISHER: No, I can see that.

21 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Inventory

22 of playing cards.

23 MR. FISHER: Okay, we're moving on to

24 543.9(e). I see the guidance document is really long,

25 though. So the NIGC comments are on page six, if I got

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1 that right.

2 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Page

3 four, top of page four.

4 MR. FISHER: Oh, I see. I went ahead to

5 the guidance and you're still in the regulation

6 language.

7 Robin?

8 MS. LASH: With the last section we were

9 discussing, can we test it? Because I don't think we

10 can just leave the section. We've gone through every

11 one that we've discussed, if we're comfortable with the

12 TGWG version, and then we go to the next section. So --

13 MR. FISHER: It's up to you.

14 MS. LASH: So leaving this one without

15 any formal recommendation, how do we want to handle

16 that? Or are we coming back to it or what?

17 MR. FISHER: You want to test the whole

18 543.9 or do you want to test individual subsections?

19 It's up to you.

20 MS. THOMAS: I'm fine with the whole

21 section.

22 MS. HAMEL: We did subsections for bingo,

23 so --

24 MR. FISHER: Okay. So you want to

25 test --

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1 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Well, you

2 have to go back, then -- okay, that wasn't included.

3 MR. FISHER: Okay. So you want to test

4 that 543.9(g), the one that's highlighted up on the

5 board there?

6 MS. HAMEL: I have a question, because I

7 can't remember. What did we do with all the sections in

8 between that were not on the comparison document from

9 NIGC?

10 MS. LASH: (Inaudible).

11 MS. HAMEL: So if there is no discussion

12 in (a), (b, (c, (d) --

13 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: (a) and

14 (b), we standardized those for all the sections. So at

15 the last meeting, you told us we didn't have to do a

16 comparison because they were all the same.

17 MS. HAMEL: (a) and (b) were the same

18 language in most of the documents.

19 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Exactly.

20 And you're right, if we didn't address it, then we

21 didn't have any issues.

22 MR. FISHER: Okay. Are we going to test

23 this section (g)? Yes?

24 MS. LASH: I think so.

25 MR. FISHER: Okay. So if you're --

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1 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Did we change

2 something?

3 MR. FISHER: No.

4 So what's highlighted up on the screen is

5 the TGWG version of subsection (g) in the card games

6 section. So it's 543.9(g). And so if you are in --

7 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: (Inaudible.)

8 MR. FISHER: Say again?

9 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: What about (e) and

10 (f)?

11 MR. FISHER: The comparison document is

12 backwards. I mean, it just moves around. So do you

13 want to do them in order? I'm trying to figure out what

14 you want to do.

15 MR. WHEATLEY: Well, it's not that

16 they're going backwards, it's the way that the Tribal

17 Gaming Working Group renumbered things.

18 MR. FISHER: Right.

19 MR. WHEATLEY: So the NIGC went in the

20 order of (a), (b) and (c) of the current reg.

21 MR. FISHER: Right, which has the effect

22 of taking us backwards.

23 MR. WHEATLEY: Yes. Not backwards, but

24 back in an earlier part.

25 MR. CULLOO: Well, we discussed (g), so

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1 that's probably where we should vote.

2 MR. FISHER: Right, so we focused on (g).

3 The question is are you ready to make a recommendation

4 in favor of the TGWG proposal on section (g)? So if you

5 are, do you want to just test it and see what happens?

6 So if you're in favor of doing it that

7 way, raise your hand.

8 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I just

9 have a question when you're done.

10 MR. FISHER: Okay. So it means we didn't

11 get everybody.

12 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: May I ask

13 you a question? What about the sections that we don't

14 cover? Are you going to have a vote on section (a),

15 internal control procedures, and then in (b), computer

16 applications, (c), variances? I'm just trying to

17 understand, by going section by section, that's what

18 you're going to require yourself to do. If you'd rather

19 just wait, go through the document, through the section

20 and make the changes and do it all in one batch, I'm

21 just saying it might be an easier approach, or maybe

22 address when you have specific issues or specific

23 recommendations, address those and then do the whole

24 section.

25 MR. WILSON: Well, you know, it would

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1 seem like -- the problem I have with stopping to vote at

2 each section is that it disrupts the flow of discussion.

3 And if we -- I think at our last meeting we discussed

4 that, barring somebody bringing up an issue to the

5 table, the default position is that if nobody brings up

6 an issue about a particular section or thing, then

7 that's deemed that we're okay with it.

8 So it would seem that if we can continue

9 with our discussion of each section and then vote on the

10 total package at the end, it should cover that we don't

11 have to vote on each section because we're discussing

12 it, unless we can't seem to come to resolution about

13 each section.

14 Did that make sense?

15 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: It made

16 sense.

17 MR. CULLOO: Why didn't we do that in

18 bingo?

19 MR. WHEATLEY: We've evolved.

20 MR. WILSON: We put our big boy pants on

21 and we discovered that we can actually talk about --

22 MR. FISHER: Do I hear music? Okay.

23 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: So what's

24 your plan?

25 MR. RAMOS: I thought I knew it.

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1 MR. FISHER: That's what I thought, I

2 thought I knew it.

3 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Could I

4 then respectively request that you just move on to the

5 next section and then do these at the end, one vote,

6 which I think the next one would be inventory?

7 MR. WHEATLEY: I'll second your

8 respectful request.

9 MR. WILSON: Well, that's a valid point.

10 MR. CULLOO: The problem is if we go on

11 this section by section, if there is only one section

12 hanging us up, then it means the whole section is not --

13 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: A good

14 point, right.

15 MR. McGHEE: That's why last time we did

16 it section by section.

17 MR. FISHER: All right. So what's the

18 answer? Are we doing it section by section or -- I

19 mean, individual sections or the whole section as a

20 whole?

21 MS. LASH: Well, I think the reason I

22 suggested a vote on this individual section is because

23 there may be concerns in the group, because we've just

24 spent so much time on it. So for those that are not

25 comfortable with approving this, I think the next

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1 question we would ask is what would make you feel more

2 comfortable with it. Because this is a new concept

3 where the information is in one section and may point to

4 something else instead of spelling it out in every

5 section. That's part of this new concept.

6 MR. FISHER: Okay. So if I have this

7 right, Michele, so what's your -- what stopped you from

8 saying okay to this section, or what concern do you

9 have?

10 MS. STACONA: I guess in 543.14, I'm

11 going to come back to the only way this will work is

12 everybody's got to know what flows through their main

13 bank, what's listed on there, including imprest.

14 So maybe if we can add some language in

15 here -- because you talk about including card rooms and

16 vaults in (g)(2). I think you've got to give some other

17 examples there to make sure you don't miss some items

18 out there.

19 MR. WEST: Are we voting on the standard

20 or the guidance?

21 MR. FISHER: Standards.

22 MR. WEST: It seems like you're testing

23 the standard, and that's a guidance issue.

24 MR. WHEATLEY: My thought is that if

25 there is an issue regarding controls of cash within the

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1 card game area that appropriate guidance documents would

2 be drafted. And NIGC staff, whatever safe harbor plan

3 that they decide to adopt with guidance documents and

4 maybe a portion of what the Tribal Gaming Working Group

5 has done or some type of hybrid of that, where they've

6 added additional, that they'll take care of that and

7 address specific card room issues, while any other

8 property that's going to develop their own and not take

9 the guidance that's proposed by the NIGC will adopt

10 whatever controls that they need specific to their area.

11 So in that instance where they have a satellite bank

12 within the card game area, that they'll address those

13 cash equivalent controls and how they handle those

14 controls within that section of their system of internal

15 controls. That's how I view it.

16 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: It sounds

17 like a recommendation to me.

18 MR. FISHER: Could be.

19 Robin?

20 MS. LASH: But isn't what you just

21 referenced? It's a regulation, 543.14. Is that what

22 you were saying was the --

23 MS. STACONA: With the new TGWG.

24 MS. LASH: Right, 543.14(f). So that is

25 not a guidance, that is a regulation that she's

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1 uncomfortable with. So if we added language there in

2 that regulation --

3 MR. FISHER: Right here?

4 MS. LASH: -- then I think we would be

5 okay.

6 MR. FISHER: So how would we change it?

7 Kathi?

8 MS. HAMEL: Could we just make a note to

9 be sure to address card room banks?

10 MS. STACONA: Or imprest banks or

11 something to that effect.

12 MR. FISHER: So make a note right here

13 when we come back to this section?

14 MS. HAMEL: Because there may be other

15 banks that we talk about in pull tabs, bingo.

16 MR. FISHER: Okay. So that's the note.

17 So when we get to that section we can go back. And I

18 thought it was easier to use the track changes, even

19 though they're not really track changes, so that people

20 can actually see it on the screen, you can see what I'm

21 doing.

22 MR. MORGAN: Before you leave it, do we

23 want to make sure that Michele is okay with it?

24 MS. STACONA: Yes.

25 (Simultaneous discussion.)

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1 MR. FISHER: So I want to go back,

2 because Jeff also had a suggestion.

3 Christina, what section are you in?

4 MS. THOMAS: Just reading the cash and

5 cash equivalent controls underneath 543.9, that's

6 pointing to 543.14.

7 MR. FISHER: Right.

8 MS. THOMAS: So my thought process would

9 be to go to the cash and cash equivalent controls of

10 543.14 and not the entire section of 543.14, as

11 applicable. I would only look at that particular

12 provision, because I would actually read the cage and

13 vault accountability as specifically a cage and vault

14 function and not really controls for cash and cash

15 equivalents, because the section of 543.9 is

16 specifically cash and cash equivalent controls. Then I

17 would go to 543.14 and specifically read those

18 provisions. Reading it outside of that skews the whole

19 regulation.

20 MR. FISHER: So you would do this?

21 MR. WHEATLEY: It should be (e).

22 MR. FISHER: (b)?

23 MR. WHEATLEY: (e), Edward.

24 MS. THOMAS: That's what I would do,

25 yeah.

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1 MR. FISHER: Does that get at what you

2 were saying, Rest? I know we don't need to, but --

3 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

4 what we would say would be helpful is what Jeff was

5 saying, this could be addressed in guidance.

6 MR. WHEATLEY: If it's not enough for the

7 NIGC, then they would establish guidance documents

8 within the card game section that basically mirrored

9 543.14, basically, on how you would go about counting.

10 And it would be more, actually, procedural since it's

11 guidance documents.

12 MR. FISHER: So what would you say?

13 MR. WHEATLEY: That they could establish

14 guidance documents to handle card room bank inventories

15 consistent with 543.14.

16 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

17 that would be a recommendation, too, right?

18 MR. FISHER: Yes. The notes to NIGC in

19 this thing become a recommendation. So we can test

20 that, as well.

21 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: All

22 right.

23 MR. FISHER: So do you want to test that

24 whole thing, or do you want to test the section and then

25 test the note separately? Let's try the whole thing,

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1 see if that works.

2 Okay. So if you're in favor of this

3 provision as we've changed it, please raise your hand.

4 That got everybody.

5 So now we're going back to (e).

6 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Inventory

7 of playing cards.

8 MR. FISHER: Right. And now we're at the

9 top of page four, right?

10 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yes.

11 MR. FISHER: Top of page four of the

12 comparison. That's the place where it talks about it.

13 Kathi?

14 MS. HAMEL: Well, I can explain that

15 543.9(e) came from the May document, not the July

16 document. We corrected the reference to tabs in the

17 July document. If you go to A, page 11 of 34, there is

18 no reference to tabs, it's cards.

19 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: The word

20 "tabs" should be deleted, that was deleted?

21 MS. HAMEL: Well, it was changed to say

22 such controls shall address cards exchanged between

23 agents.

24 MR. FISHER: Yeah, you can see that right

25 there.

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1 So does that take care of your --

2 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Between

3 agents, not to agents, right? That also was changed?

4 MR. FISHER: Right.

5 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

6 the issue that we had raised was canceling of cards.

7 Oh, okay, I see where it says it right there.

8 MS. HAMEL: It's in the guidance

9 document.

10 MR. FISHER: Okay. So did you have

11 anything else, Dan, on the regulation?

12 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: No.

13 MR. FISHER: So we're going to move to

14 questions on the guidance, which are on the top of page

15 six in the comparison document.

16 MS. HAMEL: I can comment on dice and

17 tiles.

18 MR. FISHER: Good, because that's

19 the first part.

20 MS. HAMEL: We do have dice and tiles in

21 a player-banked game that we control in the same fashion

22 that we control cards.

23 MR. WEST: You have dice -- I'm sorry?

24 MS. HAMEL: Dice and tiles in a

25 player-banked game that we control in the same fashion

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1 that we do playing cards. We purchase them, we count

2 them, we issue them, and we cancel them.

3 MR. WEST: Is that a Class III game?

4 MS. HAMEL: No, it's a player-banked

5 game, Class II game.

6 MR. WEST: All right.

7 MR. RAMOS: Kind of like California

8 craps?

9 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Where the

10 player rolls the dice and then the dealer turns over

11 some cards?

12 MR. RAMOS: Yes.

13 MR. FISHER: So we're checking that off?

14 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yeah,

15 that was just a statement anyway.

16 MS. HAMEL: Maybe typically is true, but

17 it does exist.

18 MR. WEST: So the second comment is just

19 an addition to the guidance documents for decreases to

20 the card (inaudible), which I don't think is addressed

21 in four (inaudible).

22 MS. HAMEL: Issuance of inventory?

23 That's a repeat.

24 MR. WEST: I'm sorry?

25 MS. HAMEL: I guess issuance of inventory

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1 is a decrease, I guess we just used the word decrease in

2 the guidance document, six.

3 MR. WILSON: In number 10(d), it talks

4 about card inventory being received (inaudible) issued,

5 removed (inaudible).

6 MR. WEST: The next comment is on the

7 plastic cards.

8 MR. WILSON: What was the next --

9 MR. FISHER: The next comment, the

10 paragraph that starts assuming the use of inventory

11 refers to the use of plastic cards.

12 MS. HAMEL: It may not, you may have your

13 card control in such a fashion that the cards always

14 leave the card room, and then we turn to this main card

15 inventory before they're destroyed even though they were

16 used. So it could be either way. You could go -- be

17 received into the inventory and issued to the room, and

18 then the procedure is that once they're a used card

19 they're sent directly to destruction. Then your

20 inventory tracking would take place from the card room

21 or podium, potentially, to destruction, or it may go

22 back through your overall inventory. It's just two

23 different fashions of controlling those cards.

24 MR. WEST: And I think the main focus of

25 this comment is there is nothing to address plastic

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1 cards as far as washing, inspection or -- washing and

2 inspection, or washing and cleaning. It's not a big

3 point --

4 MR. CULLOO: So is it your thought cards

5 should only be used so many times before they have to be

6 washed?

7 MR. WHEATLEY: No. The overall life

8 cycle of the cards, regular maintenance of washing. But

9 that can't stretch for longer than three months,

10 typically.

11 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Kathi, do you

12 remember why in the working group there wasn't anything

13 about washing cards?

14 MS. HAMEL: No. I don't even remember us

15 talking about it. We have all kinds of cards, so --

16 MR. WILSON: I was going to say, do you

17 use plastic cards?

18 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: We do.

19 MR. WHEATLEY: Yeah, poker.

20 MR. CULLOO: Well, the whole purpose of

21 using them is because after a while your dealers would

22 make mistakes and not shuffle them and (inaudible).

23 MR. WILSON: So this brings up an

24 interesting question in my mind. And Jeff, as you said,

25 well, typically not more than three months. So is

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1 washing of cards a standard or is it a guidance?

2 MS. HAMEL: We're in the guidance.

3 MR. WILSON: The question that I'm asking

4 is is washing of your cards something that should be

5 part of a standard and --

6 MS. HAMEL: It's a procedure.

7 MR. WILSON: It's a procedure, though,

8 that one can choose to do or not do?

9 MS. HAMEL: You can throw them away.

10 MR. CALLAGHAN: Which is inventory

11 reconciliation.

12 MR. WILSON: I guess the question I'm

13 asking is -- I only bring this up because in the

14 Class III world, we have a requirement about washing

15 cards. And so that's where I'm just saying is this

16 something -- what if somebody does it? Is that okay?

17 That's the question I'm asking, is it okay if somebody

18 chooses not to wash cards?

19 MS. HAMEL: I don't know what the risk is

20 as long as you've inspected them.

21 (Simultaneous discussion.)

22 MR. WHEATLEY: Well, if you're employing

23 a shuffler and you have dirty cards, you could alter the

24 effectiveness of the shuffle by not maintaining your

25 cards properly, thus altering the game.

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1 MR. WEST: And do they typically inspect

2 them for people bending corners and stuff?

3 MR. WHEATLEY: Yeah, yeah. And the

4 plastic cards are typically a little more difficult to

5 do that with than the standard paper cards.

6 MR. CULLOO: They last longer, more

7 durable, and you can't bend them and crease them.

8 MR. WILSON: And again, I only bring that

9 up just because in the guidance, the guidance is

10 guidance. So if it doesn't talk about that -- and

11 again, this is that whole thing of how much do you have

12 to say, and that's why I throw out the question. Is it

13 inherent that washing the cards is, in fact, a critical

14 component or not. And it sounds like it could be. And

15 if it is, then it probably needs to be specific in the

16 guidance for part of a standard.

17 MR. WHEATLEY: It makes no mention of

18 maintaining cards within the standard. So I mean, an

19 operation could formulate guidance documents on how you

20 handle that procedurally, but yeah, there is no

21 reference to ensure that they do do that.

22 MS. HAMEL: I would suggest it's a

23 suggested guidance procedure rather than a standard.

24 MR. WHEATLEY: But what's -- if there is

25 nothing stated in the standard that says a TGRA needs to

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1 ensure that there is controls ensuring that this is

2 handled, what's to say that it doesn't get overlooked?

3 And I guess, and maybe the same thing, too, now that I

4 think about it, is -- or maybe it's addressed somewhere

5 else, but maintenance of shufflers.

6 (Simultaneous discussion.)

7 MS. HAMEL: The standard says that there

8 has to be controls to prevent unauthorized access,

9 misappropriation, forgery, theft or fraud. So one

10 fashion of doing that would be cleaning cards, right?

11 MR. WHEATLEY: Broadly, I think yeah,

12 very broadly, because the section, yeah, it's more

13 talking about the inventory rather than the physical

14 upkeep.

15 MS. HAMEL: Well, there is an inspection

16 in the guidance document.

17 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: So one way to

18 prevent fraud is to make sure that you're taking care of

19 your cards.

20 MR. WILSON: Mia, I couldn't hear you.

21 Could you speak up?

22 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: You know, fraud does

23 mean, you know, how you maintain your cards.

24 MR. FISHER: Okay. So we've had some

25 question raised about whether guidance or whether there

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1 is a broader thing going on with washing cards that

2 turns out to be maintenance-related stuff. So where are

3 you? Do you need to say anything about this or are you

4 comfortable the way it is?

5 MR. WHEATLEY: What's NIGC's standpoint?

6 MR. WILSON: For me, this is under the

7 section of inventory of playing cards. So I'll say

8 again, if maintenance is important, then that -- if

9 that's a critical component, then I think it needs to

10 say so somewhere, from that standpoint.

11 MR. CULLOO: Where else in the controls

12 is there anything about maintenance of other gaming

13 equipment other than cards?

14 (Simultaneous discussion.)

15 MR. WHEATLEY: Didn't we touch on repair

16 and maintenance of electronic equipment in the Technical

17 Standards?

18 MR. CULLOO: Electronic.

19 MR. WHEATLEY: Which would cover

20 shufflers.

21 I don't have an issue with adding a small

22 make it (j), just if plastic cards are in use, adequate

23 controls will be in place to ensure that the integrity

24 of those cards is maintained.

25 MR. MORGAN: Added to the standard or

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1 added to the guidance document?

2 MR. FISHER: I heard him say guidance

3 document. Isn't that where you're focusing, the

4 guidance document?

5 MR. WHEATLEY: Well, I think Thomas and I

6 referenced this a little bit earlier, if it's not in a

7 standard, then what's to say that TGRA is going to

8 actually ensure that it's in there? I'm not saying that

9 there shouldn't be a procedure in the standard, but a

10 reference to plastic cards may be important.

11 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: I think it better

12 fits in the guidance section.

13 MR. FISHER: Okay. So you could put

14 plastic cards in this list, right, or you could say put

15 something in the guidance on washing plastic cards?

16 What's your suggestion? What would you like the group

17 to consider?

18 MR. WHEATLEY: I don't think it fits in

19 inventory.

20 MR. WILSON: I didn't hear that, Jeff.

21 MR. WHEATLEY: I don't think it fits in

22 inventory.

23 MR. FISHER: So you would not put it

24 there?

25 MR. CULLOO: Under (f), playing cards, to

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1 ensure the integrity of the card game, cards should be

2 cleaned --

3 MR. WHEATLEY: Where are you?

4 MR. CULLOO: Right under (f) in the

5 guidance, where it addresses playing cards, to ensure

6 the integrity of the card game, cards should be cleaned,

7 controls must be established. I mean --

8 MS. LASH: Maintenance?

9 MR. CULLOO: Yeah, maybe maintenance

10 would be better.

11 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Also, in (f),

12 playing cards, (f)(3), making sure that they have not

13 been marked, altered or otherwise manipulated, I mean, I

14 think that it's kind of referencing washing. It's not

15 saying it.

16 MR. WHEATLEY: But when we're talking

17 about guidance documents, we're talking about this is a

18 set of documents that a tribe who doesn't have much

19 experience in gaming can take and use as a safe harbor

20 provision.

21 At no point are we being detailed enough

22 on when you wash cards, what the cycle of washing cards

23 is, how long those cards can be in play even though they

24 have regular washing cycles, the log that goes along

25 with washing cards. All the physical controls that goes

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1 along with washing cards we're not even referencing.

2 So if it's got to go in guidance, I think

3 it's going to be more detailed.

4 MR. CULLOO: You would have to tell them

5 how to wash cards, too, because some people may not know

6 what that means.

7 (Simultaneous discussion.)

8 MR. MORGAN: I still haven't -- getting

9 back to your concern, Jeff, where you're talking --

10 lawyers, you start with you can't do anything in a

11 guidance that's somehow not pointed to by your

12 regulation, and you can't do anything in your regulation

13 somehow you don't have authorized by your statute. I

14 mean, it all has to move up in an orderly sequence. So

15 I'm not for sure how we got there in guidance.

16 I have a feeling, going back to your

17 point, in the actual reg we don't say anything about

18 maintenance. We're telling you about maintenance in the

19 guidance document, but we're not telling you anything in

20 the regulation.

21 MR. WHEATLEY: I think you just make a

22 quick (j) under 543.9 that talks about that adequate

23 controls will be established for plastic cards if they

24 are in use.

25 MS. HAMEL: What about everything else?

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1 We're just picking out one piece of the card game.

2 We're not talking about progressive sign, we're not

3 talking about shuffler, we're not talking about the

4 chips. Why are we just picking on the playing cards?

5 (Simultaneous discussion.)

6 MR. CALLAGHAN: To me, it's all part of

7 inventory, which is in the regulation.

8 MS. HAMEL: That's right.

9 MR. FISHER: It's all up in here you

10 mean?

11 MR. CALLAGHAN: (Inaudible.) And that's

12 what you're looking to be doing, should be doing.

13 MR. FISHER: Okay. So let's -- we are

14 focused -- we have been focused on plastic cards and

15 washing plastic cards. So, Kathi, your question is why

16 focus just on that particular thing? So is there

17 something --

18 MS. HAMEL: I'm not suggesting that you

19 don't wash them, I just don't know what they have to do

20 with the regulation and the guidance documents

21 associated with --

22 MR. CALLAGHAN: You've got

23 misappropriation, forgery, theft, fraud. I think the

24 mechanics of these other aspects -- and I agree with

25 some of the I don't want to call it frustration, but

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1 there is a lot of things that we've left off the table

2 in the regulation, everything down to what happens if

3 your communication on why your progressive bingo goes

4 down, should you shut your bank down or should you allow

5 it to play in the house with the probability that the

6 progressive could be hit. What does that have to do

7 with regulation. That's more internal protecting

8 yourself as opposed to your mission of keeping fraud and

9 other things out of -- I mean, we're moving in with your

10 mission, we're not moving into how we operate a casino.

11 And crime, fraud, theft, misappropriation is right up

12 there.

13 So you're so right, Kathi, you're so

14 right.

15 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: So would

16 it be helpful for a new gaming commission if you do put

17 it in the guidance document?

18 MS. HAMEL: You could, there is no harm,

19 I just don't think it's a regulation. You could put --

20 MR. CULLOO: You assume (inaudible) that

21 are completely ignorant of the game to run it. I mean,

22 that's pretty standard in the business. I've never

23 known anyone in a poker room not to (inaudible.) Now,

24 some may choose not to do it, but they know they should

25 do it. That's another issue.

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1 MR. FISHER: Okay. So what does that

2 mean? Are we changing anything or not?

3 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

4 these are, once again, these are guidance -- these are

5 points that we're raising that we see in the guidance

6 document. Take them into consideration or not. Do as

7 you see fit.

8 I think we should move on to the next

9 one, which is in regard to storage requirements for the

10 cards.

11 MR. FISHER: Everybody ready to move on?

12 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: You know,

13 another area where there could be some clarification in

14 the guidance. I don't know if anybody has any comment

15 on it.

16 MS. HAMEL: I think in the third and the

17 fourth, the discussion about adding something to the

18 guidance document about used cards is a very valid

19 point. So there may just need to be more information

20 than removal from table after inspection, that there is

21 a process to segregate used cards from new cards.

22 MR. FISHER: So we're still on this. So,

23 Kathi, I heard you -- you're making a suggestion about

24 adding that to the guidance document?

25 MS. HAMEL: I think it would be

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1 appropriate to add it to the guidance document after the

2 inspection, that there just be a comment that used cards

3 are segregated from the new cards after they're

4 inspected.

5 MR. WILSON: Kathi, can you cite the

6 section specifically? After inspection, but what --

7 MS. HAMEL: The top of page 5 of 18. It

8 says (ii), upon return of inventory the cards are

9 inspected. I mean that whole (inaudible.)

10 MR. WILSON: Oh.

11 MS. HAMEL: And again, I'll just make the

12 comment, the final guidance documents that we submitted

13 in July is a little bit different than what we're

14 looking at here. So like we took -- we just took return

15 of inventory and we broke it into some subsections of

16 (i) and (ii). So maybe there is a (iii) that ensures

17 that -- which is page 5 of 11 of Tab D.

18 MR. WILSON: Can I just get a point of

19 clarification? Tab D in the binder, which is the

20 guidance document, you're saying is not the same

21 guidance document that's referenced in the comparison?

22 MS. HAMEL: No. I believe that was the

23 main version, because it still has the reference to tabs

24 instead of cards.

25 MR. WILSON: Because the date on the top

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1 of it says 7/28/2011.

2 MR. FISHER: So what's in the

3 comparison -- go ahead, Dan.

4 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: We didn't

5 have guidance documents when we got the May draft, we

6 only got the guidance documents when we got the July

7 draft. So it should be the same.

8 MS. LASH: We're looking at the July

9 draft right here.

10 MR. WILSON: Yeah, and -- because what --

11 MS. HAMEL: It still has reference to

12 tabs, for the regulation.

13 Comparison document, page 3 of 18,

14 543.9(e), such controls shall address tab cards.

15 MS. LASH: Are you on Tab E?

16 MR. MORGAN: Of the comparison document.

17 MS. HAMEL: So under that section of

18 return of inventory, there could be a (iii) that says

19 used cards should be segregated from new cards.

20 MR. FISHER: Oh, I see. So it would be

21 like this. Can you look on the screen, Kathi? This

22 would be this.

23 MS. HAMEL: Sure.

24 MR. FISHER: Okay. So I think we're

25 still trying to ascertain document versions.

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1 MS. HAMEL: So it's just the regulation.

2 MR. FISHER: It's just the regulation?

3 Okay, okay. So now we're back to the guidance comments,

4 the top of page six.

5 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: That was

6 this one right here, then cancellation log.

7 MR. FISHER: Right.

8 MR. WILSON: So one of the NIGC comments

9 there about controls in this section should include

10 storage requirement, that's referencing to controls in

11 the guidance document? Because the guidance document

12 does have a section on storage requirements.

13 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: All these

14 are references to the guidance documents, all these

15 questions here reference guidance documents.

16 MR. WILSON: So the controls in this

17 section should include storage requirements, oh, for

18 used cards and the time period within which cards should

19 be canceled.

20 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: So do you

21 feel that it's adequately addressed in the guidance

22 documents?

23 MS. LASH: Yes. Page 4 of 11 under Tab

24 D, it says storage. (i) says new and used playing cards

25 must be maintained in a secure location, i.e., under

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1 lock and key with the appropriate surveillance coverage

2 and accessible to authorized agents to prevent

3 unauthorized access and tampering. So that does

4 reference used, as well.

5 MR. WEST: What about the second part,

6 the cancellation period?

7 MS. LASH: Page 5 of 11 under Tab D has a

8 cancellation and removal section, and page 6 of 11 under

9 Tab D on number ten has a logs section. I think it's

10 covered.

11 MR. FISHER: Does it cover the time

12 period?

13 MR. WEST: No, I don't see where the time

14 period is addressed.

15 MR. FISHER: So Rest is asking about the

16 time period. Is that --

17 MS. HAMEL: I think he means time of day.

18 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: The

19 length, right.

20 MR. FISHER: Total time, right? Total

21 time.

22 MS. LASH: We need to add that.

23 MR. FISHER: Okay. Where would you put

24 it?

25 MS. LASH: Oh, sorry. Page 6 of 11,

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1 number ten, logs, (ii)(a) says date and (c) says time.

2 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: But the

3 time --

4 MR. WEST: It's the time period for

5 cancellation.

6 MR. MORGAN: You have so long to store

7 them and then --

8 MS. LASH: And you have cancellation?

9 Okay.

10 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: They can only sit in

11 the podium for 30 days or two days.

12 MR. FISHER: Got it.

13 MS. HAMEL: I think it's kind of dictated

14 on your size, right, based on your space? Do you make a

15 specific time or do you --

16 MR. CULLOO: What if you don't use a deck

17 three times in the 90 days? It makes no sense.

18 MR. WEST: You're not going to remove it

19 from play, you're probably going to keep it at the

20 podium. These are the ones that have been removed from

21 play and need to be canceled before they disappear.

22 MS. HAMEL: Is your question

23 cancellation --

24 MR. WEST: Cancellation.

25 MS. HAMEL: -- or destroyed?

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1 Oh, I didn't understand.

2 MR. RAMOS: (9)(iii).

3 MR. FISHER: Can you say that a little

4 louder, Jason?

5 MR. RAMOS: I think it goes under

6 (9)(iii).

7 MR. FISHER: That's what I got right

8 there.

9 MR. RAMOS: Actually, I'm sorry.

10 (Simultaneous discussion.)

11 MR. WILSON: These decks that are no

12 longer in play, how long are they going to be sitting

13 somewhere before they're destroyed so that they can't be

14 reintroduced into play, with the theory being that cards

15 that are taken out of play have less visibility than

16 cards that are in play. And therefore, you don't want

17 them sitting for an indeterminate amount of time that

18 they -- you could lose track that, in fact, you have

19 cards missing that have been reintroduced into the game

20 even from outside.

21 And that is a common scam, is the

22 reintroduction of non-destroyed cards by outside parties

23 back into the game.

24 MR. RAMOS: Robert, it probably goes

25 under (ii).

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1 MR. FISHER: (ii)? Is it a new one?

2 MR. RAMOS: No. I think if we put it

3 anywhere in there it goes (9), some language in (ii).

4 MS. HAMEL: The cancellation?

5 MR. FISHER: Right.

6 MR. RAMOS: (ii).

7 MR. FISHER: Sorry.

8 MS. HAMEL: So cancellation and removal,

9 guidance document 9(i), used playing cards that are not

10 to be reused shall be properly cancelled and then

11 removed from service to prevent reuse and retire cards.

12 I think it should have another statement

13 that says best practice suggests this cancellation take

14 place in X amount of days.

15 MR. MORGAN: In (ii) you already have a

16 second sentence that says best practice suggests that

17 the cancellation process be under surveillance to

18 prevent (inaudible). You could add something in there

19 on time period.

20 MR. WHEATLEY: Maybe like seven days or

21 whatever.

22 MR. MORGAN: You could add best practice

23 suggests that it's under surveillance and it occurs

24 within whatever that date is.

25 (Simultaneous discussion.)

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1 MR. FISHER: Okay, okay, so we got a lot

2 of conversations going at the same time.

3 MR. RAMOS: It is getting late.

4 MR. FISHER: It is getting late. Maybe

5 we should take a short break. We've got another hour to

6 go. Let's take a little stretch break. Let's just take

7 a five-minute stretch break.

8 (Recess.)

9 MR. FISHER: All right, folks. We've got

10 50 minutes left. Where we took a little break was to

11 add a recommendation in the guidance on the best

12 practices section right here. So I don't know if you

13 want to specify a time frame or just say --

14 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

15 the standard is seven days, yeah, or the -- I don't want

16 to say standard, but the recommended best practice.

17 MR. WHEATLEY: Common practice.

18 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Best

19 practice, yeah.

20 MR. FISHER: Good? Okay, going to move

21 on here. That's it for (e), right?

22 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: No.

23 MR. FISHER: What did I miss?

24 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: We're at number five

25 now on page six.

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1 MR. FISHER: Oh, I see, yep.

2 MR. WHEATLEY: I think that's in there,

3 though, (10)?

4 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

5 that's what Robin was saying in (10)(ii), is that

6 what --

7 MS. HAMEL: I think maybe there is a

8 misunderstanding of the comment. And it says management

9 should determine based on the size of the operation and

10 inventory needs where the logs are maintained, not

11 whether or not you should have logs.

12 Is that the confusion?

13 MR. WEST: Yes, it is.

14 MS. HAMEL: It's where the logs

15 themselves are maintained, are they maintained at the

16 podium, are they maintained in a closet or do you have a

17 room.

18 MR. WEST: No, it says where card

19 inventory logs are required. That means, in my mind,

20 management can say we don't need a card inventory log.

21 MS. HAMEL: And I think our intent was

22 location, not whether or not they were required. So

23 there probably needs to be some clarification.

24 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: The

25 location where card inventory logs are required? That

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1 doesn't make any sense.

2 MR. CULLOO: Maybe just the location of

3 the inventory log.

4 MS. HAMEL: Yes, change the language.

5 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Cleaner,

6 yeah. So that would be in (10(i).

7 MR. CULLOO: Management determines the

8 location of the log.

9 MR. FISHER: All right. Did I get that

10 right? Yes?

11 MR. CULLOO: Yes.

12 MR. FISHER: Does that work, Kathi?

13 MS. HAMEL: It may need some

14 wordsmithing.

15 MR. FISHER: So do you want to just

16 change it and say add the concept in there --

17 MS. HAMEL: Yes.

18 MR. FISHER: -- where it's clarified that

19 it's the location, not whether there are logs, right?

20 MS. HAMEL: Not whether. And then we

21 would get rid of that.

22 MR. FISHER: Does that do it? Okay?

23 Does that do it?

24 Okay, all right. So we made three

25 changes. So like we did with (g), you want to do (e)?

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1 MR. CULLOO: Uh-huh.

2 MR. FISHER: So we didn't make any change

3 to (e). So it would be TGWG version (e), and then all

4 of these things would be guidance related to (e). We

5 would just put that in there like that, like this.

6 Okay. So should we test this? Everybody

7 ready?

8 Okay. So if you agree with the changes

9 up on the screen, raise your hand.

10 Perfect. All right. So back to the

11 comparison document. Now we're up to (f).

12 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Shills.

13 MR. FISHER: Okay. What did you have to

14 say about that?

15 MR. WEST: I just didn't put it on the

16 comparison document, but I was looking at the actual

17 wording of the standard. Issuance and return of shill

18 funds shall be recorded and have the written approval of

19 another agent. Should it say an authorized agent or

20 approved agent? Because it reads --

21 MR. MORGAN: Sorry, it's kind of an

22 inside discussion. The Tribal Gaming Working Group,

23 when we used the generic term "agent," it assumes that

24 you have to be authorized in order to be an agent.

25 MR. FISHER: It's a defined term.

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1 MR. MORGAN: Yeah, under the defined term

2 of a definition of agent.

3 MR. WEST: I'm going to say are they

4 going to authorize a shill be used and approve funds.

5 That's the question, it's not that agents are not

6 authorized, it's do they have that authority.

7 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

8 the idea is that while an agent can be any employee

9 within the facility, they may not be authorized to do

10 that particular task.

11 MR. McGHEE: A person authorized by the

12 gaming operation as approved by TGRA to make (inaudible)

13 on behalf of the gaming operation.

14 MR. FISHER: That's the way the

15 definition is, right?

16 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE:

17 MR. McGHEE: It means that agent was

18 assigned to perform that task.

19 MR. FISHER: Right.

20 MR. WHEATLEY: It's also in the guidance,

21 (g)(1)(ii), agents authorized to make the decision to

22 use a shill. Or are you just talking about signing out

23 the cash? That would be separate.

24 MR. WEST: So it sets up a different

25 class, it sets up particular agents that are only

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1 authorized to do that, which would be not global to all

2 the agents.

3 MR. FISHER: Isn't that what it means to

4 be a shill?

5 MR. CULLOO: I was going to sing that

6 song.

7 MR. FISHER: Okay. So did that way of

8 piecing that together, did that address your concern, or

9 do you still have a concern?

10 MR. WEST: No, it didn't.

11 MS. HAMEL: So the definition of agent

12 doesn't create the control? Because an agent has to be

13 authorized to perform the assigned task.

14 MR. WEST: What if the agent is a dealer?

15 That doesn't mean you're authorized to approve someone

16 to become a shill.

17 MS. HAMEL: Well, then they wouldn't be

18 authorized to perform that task.

19 MR. WEST: Well, it doesn't say

20 authorized, it just says --

21 MR. FISHER: The definition of agent says

22 that in order to be an agent, you have to be authorized

23 to do that task.

24 MR. CULLOO: Specific task.

25 MR. WEST: Okay, all right.

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1 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: So that

2 addresses this issue here.

3 MR. WEST: So that would address that,

4 too.

5 MR. FISHER: So we're good? We don't

6 have anything else? Okay. Are we done with shills?

7 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Just for

8 my own personal knowledge, is this a common practice in

9 card games?

10 MR. WHEATLEY: I use a shill. Our poker

11 room manager is our shill. And she's authorized to, up

12 to $100 a day, to get a game going. Once the game has

13 enough players to sustain itself, then she withdraws,

14 turns her cash back in. But she can go in and out of

15 the game at any point in order to keep the game going

16 with enough players so that we have action.

17 MR. MORGAN: That's when you need it. It

18 depends on your card room. You've got one guy that

19 comes in all the time and wants to play, you've got to

20 give him that ability to play and get the game going.

21 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: All

22 right.

23 MR. McGHEE: Does that address the last

24 comment from NIGC?

25 MR. WEST: Yes.

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1 MR. FISHER: All right. So I think we

2 addressed all the comments on --

3 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: (f).

4 MR. FISHER: -- section (f) in the

5 guidance. So do you want to test this?

6 If you support that language, raise your

7 hand, please.

8 Okay, that got everybody.

9 All right. So what is next? No

10 comparable TGWG section. So now we're on page eight.

11 We already did the counting room thing. The card room

12 bank, that comment on page eight is the same as before

13 we got on cash and cash equivalents, right?

14 MR. WEST: Right.

15 MR. FISHER: So have we taken care of

16 that?

17 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think

18 so.

19 MR. WHEATLEY: We just said that they're

20 going to establish guidance.

21 MR. FISHER: Right.

22 So now we're on (i), page --

23 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Eight.

24 MR. FISHER: -- 13 is all the way to

25 where it goes to, but that's where your comments begin,

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1 right, on page 13? So you want to start on page eight,

2 start on page eight. So there is a comment about the

3 regulation.

4 MR. McGHEE: (Inaudible).

5 MR. FISHER: Say again?

6 MR. McGHEE: It talks about the effects,

7 which we talked about before. And the only other thing

8 it says is guidance appears to be relevant.

9 MR. FISHER: Where are you looking at?

10 MR. McGHEE: We're on (i), right?

11 MR. FISHER: Yes.

12 MR. WEST: You're looking at the standard

13 part of it, though, page eight -- top of page 13, I'm

14 sorry.

15 MR. FISHER: Top of page 13.

16 MR. McGHEE: Got it.

17 MR. FISHER: Effect the TGWG proposal,

18 page eight. I mean 13.

19 MR. McGHEE: It's not a question, is it?

20 Okay, yeah, I got it.

21 MR. FISHER: The standard could be more

22 specific. Further, it's not clear whether it's intended

23 to require verification of increases and decreases, and

24 then it goes on. So it's what -- I mean, what's the

25 question?

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1 MR. WEST: I want to back up to the

2 heading of (i). Unless it's been changed, it says

3 promotional progressive pots and pools such as contests,

4 tournaments, drawings and giveaway programs. I don't

5 understand "such as." Promotional progressive pots and

6 pools are not contests, drawings or giveaway programs.

7 To me they're two separate -- I mean, it's separate

8 programs or promotions, if you will.

9 MR. FISHER: Okay. So I think we need to

10 turn to the TGWG folks and see what was intended there.

11 MS. LASH: So does deleting the "such as"

12 language help at all or --

13 MR. WHEATLEY: Deleting the references

14 altogether? Because I'd have to agree, they're not the

15 same thing.

16 MR. WEST: And then the rest of the

17 standard talks about promotional pool contributions, and

18 then it's just like it's silent as to contests, drawings

19 or giveaway programs. It's just like it's dropped off.

20 I don't know, it's just a confusing section to me.

21 MS. HAMEL: So if that was removed, would

22 it be clearer, if it just ended at pools, remove "such

23 as"?

24 MR. WHEATLEY: So pools shall be returned

25 and documented in accordance with the posted rules? Is

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1 that what you're saying? Delete "such as" all the way

2 through -- well, never mind. There is two separate

3 sentences there.

4 MR. FISHER: There is a period right

5 after programs.

6 MR. WHEATLEY: So get rid of the "such

7 as" and the rest of that sentence?

8 MR. MORGAN: Does that make it clear?

9 MR. WHEATLEY: I believe so.

10 MR. MORGAN: The heading is confusing but

11 the language is not, so clarify the heading.

12 MS. THOMAS: It's still confusing with

13 the guidance documents, though, because you guys

14 actually break down promotions and tournaments. It's

15 still two separate things.

16 MR. WHEATLEY: Wouldn't those be more

17 appropriate in section (10), the promotion section?

18 MR. WEST: Was it the intent of the TGWG

19 to address contests in this section or not?

20 MS. HAMEL: If it involved contributions

21 from the patron.

22 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: Because we use their

23 money to fund tournaments out of that player pool, we

24 use their money to have some sort of promotional or

25 contest, returning their money.

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1 MR. CALLAGHAN: What about if you had a

2 bad beat and it was seeded, you would be able to take

3 part of that rake and if you -- so long as it was

4 stated, the house could get paid back?

5 MR. WHEATLEY: For their seed amount?

6 MR. MORGAN: Yeah.

7 MS. HAMEL: And tournaments may or may

8 not be funded by the player. That's why we had that in

9 there.

10 MR. MORGAN: I think that is the

11 distinguishing thing. We're talking about what the

12 casino does and the word for general patrons to come in

13 and maybe obtain some incentive. And this term, we're

14 talking about cards, because Class II is player banked.

15 We're using a portion of their funds. And we're still

16 running the tournament and we're still running the

17 contest, but we're not running it with the, quote

18 unquote, house any more, we're running it with the

19 player's pool funds.

20 MR. CALLAGHAN: So it's just like a

21 progressive. Once you post a progressive, it's used

22 with the player's money. Regardless of whether it comes

23 off of that game or it comes off of another game, the

24 money is always returned to the player.

25 MR. MORGAN: Back to the player and

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1 understand what the percentages are.

2 MR. CALLAGHAN: So you should be allowed

3 for cancellation so long as the funds are (inaudible).

4 MS. HAMEL: So that's why in the guidance

5 document that we made we talked about tournaments as an

6 example. Not that that's the only example, but there

7 could be. Maybe that's why we had the "such as" in

8 there.

9 MR. MORGAN: That could be. It reminds

10 me of the term "reasonable" when we're talking about

11 variances. Remember when we had that discussion about

12 how to use the term "variance" in this context? That's

13 sort of the way we used promotions and tournaments in

14 this, because it's a specific context within the card

15 games, it doesn't have the natural attributes a

16 promotion would have. It's used very specifically. And

17 when it's used that way, either suggested guidance of

18 how you control that (inaudible).

19 MR. CULLOO: Maybe we should be more

20 specific, player-contributed funds in promotions.

21 Because if we do a free roll tournament or something,

22 that doesn't have anything to do with this. There is a

23 lot of promotions that you can do that have nothing to

24 do with this.

25 MR. WHEATLEY: Exactly.

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1 MS. HAMEL: And that was the intent of

2 it.

3 MR. CULLOO: Maybe if it was only a

4 player-contributed funded promotion.

5 MR. CALLAGHAN: Patron funded, yeah.

6 MR. FISHER: Are we still talking about

7 changing the heading or are we talking about what this

8 section covers?

9 MR. CALLAGHAN: It does say funds

10 contributed by patrons to prize pools shall be returned

11 and documented in accordance with posted rules. That

12 fits exactly the scenario.

13 MR. MORGAN: So far the language is okay,

14 it's the heading that's confusing.

15 MR. CALLAGHAN: Oh, I'm sorry.

16 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: In the accounting

17 section of 543.19(6)(d), it talks specifically about the

18 promotions and the cash returned to the patrons and pool

19 balances and the reconciliation process, that it's

20 accounted for, on page 10.

21 MS. HAMEL: Maybe that section just needs

22 to be added to the guidance document and removed from

23 the regulations.

24 MR. CULLOO: I think the old header is

25 correct.

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1 MS. HAMEL: Pots and pools.

2 MR. FISHER: So the old header is just

3 that, right?

4 MS. HAMEL: Right.

5 MR. FISHER: With the "such as" not

6 included.

7 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: You

8 suggest it be moved into the guidance documents?

9 MS. HAMEL: Right, because we just -- we

10 talk about tournaments, but maybe in the guidance

11 document where it talks about (inaudible) card games and

12 related promotions and tournament, maybe it should say

13 promotional progressive pots and pools such as, so long

14 as the control is around those funds that are

15 contributed by the patrons.

16 MR. MORGAN: If I'm following everybody,

17 I'm just trying to make sure I'm up to speed here, so

18 we're looking at the comparison document of what NIGC

19 (inaudible). That paragraph there, the first part, they

20 kind of said, well, the section title is confusing, so

21 we modified that.

22 Mia, your comment went to say it's moved

23 to accounting to take care of some of that stuff, that's

24 where you need to look if you have issues with whether

25 it's specifically referenced in how to do this, it's

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1 actually found in the accounting section.

2 And then your last thing there is talking

3 about once per day or per week. And it gives you that

4 independence, because it depends on how frequently your

5 game is done. If you don't open your game except for on

6 Thursday, Friday, Saturday, then why should you be doing

7 that once a day? You know, it kind of depends on the

8 operation to perform that function based on its risk

9 associated with what kind of a frequency your card game

10 gets.

11 So to me that's kind of the -- addressing

12 all of those. So change the title, make it less

13 confusing. Mia's point was you look to the accounting

14 section to, I guess, get into specifically how those

15 functions are performed now, remove it out of the cards

16 and move it to accounting. And then that once per day

17 per slash week issue allows the operations some

18 flexibility.

19 MS. TAHDOOAHNIPPAH: The word "day" is

20 struck, so it actually is, in the most current one, it's

21 week, at least once a week.

22 MR. MORGAN: Okay.

23 MR. FISHER: Okay. So where are we?

24 MR. MORGAN: It depends on what issue you

25 have. The section heading, I think we got through that.

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1 I think we're ready to move on to his next point as to

2 whether it's covered adequately. And that's what Mia

3 was talking about in the accounting section.

4 MR. FISHER: Okay. So are we ready to

5 back to talking about 13, then?

6 MR. WILSON: So on the top of page 13,

7 NIGC, on the second comment, the proposed standards

8 appear like -- it's too late in the day.

9 MS. HAMEL: They're not specific.

10 MR. WILSON: But a lot of these issues

11 are addressed in the guidance document. And in the

12 guidance, your comments on the guidance portions state

13 that you're okay with the guidance, basically.

14 So I guess what my question is,

15 understanding the guidance document now that you may not

16 have understood when this comment was made, is this

17 comment still valid?

18 MR. WEST: No. Which comment?

19 MR. WILSON: Comment number two, comment

20 two about the proposed standard appears to lack any --

21 MS. LASH: Specificity.

22 MR. WILSON: Yes, that word, it appears

23 that your comment under the guidance section below sort

24 of confirms that, okay, the guidance really does address

25 these concerns that you had that weren't in the

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1 standard.

2 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: We're

3 thinking we may have made these comments prior to us

4 receiving the guidance documents.

5 MR. WILSON: Yeah, I think so. It

6 appears that way, and that's why I just want to -- if

7 these are no longer applicable, those comments, we don't

8 need to talk about them.

9 MR. WEST: I think it's going to flow

10 from however the standard is resolved, because in the

11 guidance documents you talk about tournaments. So are

12 you going to take tournaments out? I'm confused,

13 because the way the -- I mean, the actual standard is,

14 in my personal opinion, is poorly written, or at least

15 maybe I don't understand the intent.

16 MR. FISHER: I'm thinking that it might

17 be getting late in the day. To sort this out in a way

18 that actually -- maybe it would be better if we came

19 back fresh in the morning to look at this, because there

20 still seems to be a conceptual question about what's

21 included in this section, and therefore what's included

22 in the guidance and whether the regulation covers

23 everything that's included in the guidance.

24 So I'm -- I'll check with you. You know,

25 we have 15 more minutes. If you want to keep going, we

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1 can. I'm thinking it might be better to come back fresh

2 on this.

3 We do have to do public comment.

4 MR. WILSON: We have to do public

5 comment.

6 MR. FISHER: Yes, we do. So that's how

7 we would end the day, we would check on public comment

8 and come back tomorrow on this topic. Everybody good

9 with that? Anybody want to keep going on this?

10 So we'll start up again tomorrow on this

11 topic. Before we adjourn for the day, we want to check

12 with the folks in the audience to see if anybody wishes

13 to provide public comment, at this point, to the TAC.

14 I'm checking to see if anybody in the audience wants to

15 provide public document.

16 Okay. So for the purposes of our record

17 here, nobody in the audience expressed a desire to

18 provide public comment. And so let's adjourn for the

19 day. We'll start up again at 8:00 a.m. and pick up

20 where we left off.

21 (TAC meeting recessed at 5:46 p.m.)

22

23

24

25

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0

08 89:21

1

1 194:21

10 32:19 37:23

49:22 171:3 191:3,5

192:6 200:17

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100 145:19 196:12

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11:55 58:19

12 96:12

120 70:15 91:18

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12:00 56:11 58:13

13 56:7 197:24

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14 148:23 156:10

15 49:23 53:13

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102:21 103:5,7,15

103:22 207:25

15347 1:10

1715 70:18

18 103:24 104:9

156:15 183:7

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19 67:1 78:14 79:7

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2

2 66:14,14 71:1

76:12 87:20 90:25

98:24 99:2 102:5,24

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104:24 112:13,13

137:7 150:25

163:16

2002 107:23

2004 109:19

2006 107:11,14,15

2007 49:20

2008 67:24 107:8,24

117:9

2009 49:21

2010 67:24 132:4

2011 1:12 2:1 23:10

21 132:16,23 133:8

25 70:8

27 107:23

2706 32:19

28th 23:10,20

3

3 81:8 114:22 116:7

178:12 184:13

30 106:4,5 187:11

300 38:18

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34 168:17

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4

4 185:23

5

5 183:7,17 186:7

50 190:10

542 51:12,20 67:25

107:19,20 109:15

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542.3 63:3 108:9

543 62:24 63:10

70:20 72:14 77:21

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114:19 116:1

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543.14 133:25

134:12 135:11,13

137:7 141:3 142:3

148:12,23 149:15

149:21 163:10

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84:21 85:22 86:18

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543.3 62:8,17 63:3

64:2,12 65:18 66:12

71:16 78:7 80:25

82:6 85:22 87:14,18

98:16,24 99:8 102:4

102:13 106:23

107:14 108:12

111:23 113:2,4

114:4 116:19,25

127:23 140:18

543.3. 80:16,23

84:19 87:19 98:11

98:13 104:19

107:18 116:12

543.4 62:8 64:12

117:7,15 119:15

123:23 124:3

543.4. 116:18 117:6

543.50. 86:13

543.6 126:24 128:23

543.6. 62:9

543.7 85:22

543.9 132:4 133:13

134:24 147:5

148:25 153:10

156:24 157:18

158:4 159:6 166:5

166:15 168:15

179:22 184:14

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547 63:10

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571 70:7,8,9,19,24

72:7 79:4

5:46 208:21

6

6 1:12 2:1 124:13,16

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60 106:4,5

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7

7 96:18

7/28/2011 184:1

75 24:4

8

8:00 208:19

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9

9 135:12,13 188:2,6

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90 187:17

95 57:8

a

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49:4 105:19 129:9

201:2

absolute 12:15 46:7

91:23

absolutely 12:14

51:18

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97:23 100:13 114:9

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accepted 65:12

101:7 116:14

125:19

access 130:16 175:8

186:3

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152:15 166:13

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actual 67:20 71:22

97:10 100:14

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115:13 119:25

163:14 183:1

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190:11 192:16

added 89:4 120:9

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164:6 165:1 176:25

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adding 176:21

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152:3,7 153:22

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164:7,12 165:9

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184:14 195:8 196:3

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206:24

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134:7,13 135:24

136:19 148:14,20

149:24 167:5

170:20 175:4

185:21 186:14

197:2 206:11

addresses 6:9 49:2

178:5 196:2

addressing 30:18

205:11

adds 146:21 147:25

adequate 18:2

176:22 179:22

adequately 135:11

185:21 206:2

adhering 36:3,11,12

adjourn 208:11,18

adjust 72:20 74:3

adopt 45:2 46:10

48:10,14 51:20

111:7 164:3,9

adopted 11:14 27:6

46:9 110:12 122:8

122:19,23

adopting 48:9 52:12

adoption 51:15

advance 56:23

111:7

advantage 45:18,22

advice 115:11,12,13

advisory 1:3

advocate 50:12

advocating 11:7

13:2,3 15:10 110:20

affect 20:22 22:16

afford 58:1

afraid 55:4 154:24

afternoon 59:1

agencies 22:6

agency 17:18 18:21

21:4,22 22:21 32:14

108:8

agency's 109:24

agenda 2:25 4:14,15

4:20 5:1,4,6,9 6:14

6:22 41:12 62:6

129:11 131:19

agent 22:2,19

193:19,19,20,23,24

194:2,8,17 195:11

195:12,14,21,22

agents 57:18 137:10

168:23 169:3,3

186:2 194:5,21,25

195:2

agree 14:8 30:11

43:15 58:2 64:7,20

64:21 83:13 95:5

116:3 123:25 126:7

140:16,19 152:11

155:11 180:24

193:8 199:14

agreed 18:23 63:25

64:1 65:14 68:20

69:17,24 71:20 73:1

73:10 74:5,21,25

115:15 120:18

124:8

agreement 64:6 69:3

102:8 124:2 128:23

ahead 2:24 15:22

21:18 36:14 59:13

89:25 102:17

106:25 111:7 130:6

157:4 184:3

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95:20 181:4

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199:14

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143:7 144:12

147:23 148:1

188:17 189:14

201:5

analysis 15:12 49:16

49:24,25 50:3,9

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68:13 70:13 71:8,21

71:24 72:3,11 73:2

73:7,11,12,19 75:9

75:22,24 76:14,18

76:21,22 77:25 79:4

82:20 92:17

annually 75:6,23

88:16 94:14

answer 15:20 94:19

146:3 162:18

[accepted - answer] Page 2

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
answered 66:22

answering 11:8

answers 87:13

anybody 8:11 13:13

35:3 41:8,14 50:23

53:1 56:4,13,25

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200:17

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193:18

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10:24

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5:2,14,17 6:18 7:8

17:4 20:13 22:15

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53:4,25 60:12,18

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152:1 155:11 156:8

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162:3,13 164:16

167:3,16,21 168:6

168:10,19 169:2,5

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190:14,18,22 191:4

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204:7 207:2

associated 11:24

19:12 83:12 135:23

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assuming 17:7

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171:10

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10:8

ation 105:17

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audience 24:10

56:13,21,25 58:11

129:10 208:12,14

208:17

audit 8:4,25 11:9,19

14:16,17 18:24 19:9

21:17 22:23 26:23

29:8 33:19 37:4

38:17 39:22 40:13

40:15,19 49:25

53:23 55:16 63:7,8

63:9,18,18 65:22

66:25 68:13,14,17

[answered - audit] Page 3

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
68:21,24,25 69:3,5

69:8,15,17,18,22,23

69:25 70:2,13,15

71:4,4,5,9,22 72:3

72:12 73:2,11,12,20

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110:8,9,15 138:7

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145:16,17,19,21

146:11,14,17,17

153:14 154:5,6,9

audited 24:1 70:11

93:7

auditing 8:1,12

19:15 25:24 33:11

37:3,23 69:13 71:11

73:15 81:25,25

84:11,11 85:1,15

86:8,9,16,17,20

142:1,7 145:9

146:12

auditor 8:2,3,17,24

9:17 16:25 39:17

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138:7 141:16 142:3

143:1,2 144:20

146:15,20,22

147:13,14 153:2,7,9

154:18,22

auditor's 138:6

auditors 7:18 8:5

9:10,11,21 10:23

14:22 15:25 17:8

18:3,16,22,25 19:13

19:15 20:7 32:14

33:4,5,5,6 34:8 37:2

39:24 43:24,25

73:13 75:16,17

83:22 84:1 86:17

110:18,19 143:21

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audits 7:16 10:15,16

10:16,17 22:9,13

25:12,20 34:10

39:21 40:6 49:9,22

68:9 69:11,12 71:8

71:21,24 73:6,7,19

73:23,25 74:1,3,4

75:15 76:19,20,23

76:24 79:17

aup 39:22,23 68:17

68:23 69:24 73:11

75:23 77:4,17 78:9

79:1 86:19 142:6

aups 40:19 72:12

77:16

authoritatively 48:7

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24:14 40:5,12

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45:11 194:6

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194:6,9,11,21 195:1

195:13,15,18,20,22

196:11

automated 27:25

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67:4

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b

b 32:19 44:6,10

66:14 92:2,8 93:17

102:25 103:4,8,16

104:24 112:6,13

131:8 132:4 158:12

158:14,17 159:20

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back 3:8,23,23 4:9

6:21 18:12 29:9

32:20 33:14 34:15

35:11 37:17,21,24

41:4 42:3 45:3 47:7

52:22 58:16 64:25

71:24 78:19 79:4

84:18 89:10,11,11

89:13,24,24 90:20

90:24 96:10 99:6

100:10 101:25

104:6 106:19 113:6

114:18 119:12

122:17 123:13

124:9 149:8 152:7

157:16 158:2

159:24 163:11

165:13,17 166:1

168:5 171:22 179:9

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188:23 193:10

196:14 199:1 201:4

201:25 206:5

207:19 208:1,8

background 24:23

backgrounding

55:14 56:3

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201:2

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141:9,9,12,18 143:8

143:18 144:9,11

147:8,8,9,14,19,23

149:19 150:5

151:14 152:12,19

163:13 164:11

167:14 181:4

197:12

banked 169:21,25

170:4 201:14

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138:10 139:5 144:8

145:5,6 147:6,12

149:17 150:22

154:12 165:9,10,15

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6:24 7:2 10:24 19:6

21:23 22:12 25:20

25:21 32:6 33:11

45:13 50:9 53:8

62:2 94:15 99:8

110:15 139:13

187:14 191:9 205:8

basic 39:4

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65:7 84:10 90:11

114:12 155:17

167:8,9 206:13

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109:15

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147:16 150:25

183:22 200:9

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best 3:6 79:12 90:3

109:16 189:13,16

189:22 190:11,16

[audit - best] Page 4

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
190:18

better 15:14 17:7

19:4,4 22:6 28:7

36:24 37:22 45:21

67:16 69:16 97:14

106:20 111:5 129:8

130:8 136:19

143:20 154:17

177:11 178:10

207:18 208:1

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100:4 106:6

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161:20 172:2

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111:11

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157:22 161:18

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36:24 52:18 55:6

58:18 61:8 66:11

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158:5

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95:23,25

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58:14,15 124:14

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190:5,6,7,10 200:14

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42:16 43:15 48:22

54:9 81:14,21

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65:1 75:20 78:18

113:19 125:25

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43:21,22

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176:1

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60:20

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19:12 27:13 29:20

29:21,22 47:16

59:18 181:22

businesses 26:7

27:13

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64:12 65:7,8

buying 144:13

c

c 44:6,10 92:9

112:13,17 158:12

159:20 160:16

187:1

cage 81:5 134:2

135:19 137:1,8,18

139:1 141:2,10

149:10 151:1,5,6,7

151:12,14,17,21

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49:18 55:20 170:7

call 21:6 29:22

52:25,25 53:1,13

55:3 75:1 77:4

78:10 85:12 86:9,16

86:16 145:2,3 147:7

147:8,8,9 180:25

callaghan 9:20 11:2

15:25 36:15 41:18

48:23 78:4 81:13,15

81:23 82:10 140:14

156:10 173:10

180:6,11,22 201:1

201:20 202:2 203:5

203:9,15

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152:17

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78:4 79:1

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187:21

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186:6,8 187:5,8,23

187:24 189:4,8,13

189:17 202:3

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card 129:12,15,16

129:19 130:19

131:18,19 132:20

132:24 133:18,19

133:19 134:16,18

134:18 136:24

137:15,16,19,25

138:7,10,25 139:2,3

139:22 140:1,1,11

140:18,24,24 141:2

141:7,9,18 143:3,9

143:18,25 147:5,7

147:19 148:3,7

149:10 150:10,22

152:19,22 159:5

163:15 164:1,7,12

165:9 167:8,14

170:20 171:4,13,14

171:14,18,20 178:1

178:6 180:1 191:18

191:20,25 196:9,18

197:11 202:14

204:11 205:9

cards 41:11 43:9

156:22 168:7,18,22

169:6,22 170:1,11

171:7,11,13,23

172:1,4,8,13,15,17

173:1,4,15,18,23,25

174:4,5,13,18

175:10,19,23 176:1

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177:10,14,15,25

178:1,5,6,12,22,22

178:23,25 179:1,5

179:23 180:4,14,15

182:10,18,21,21

183:2,3,8,24 184:14

184:19,19 185:18

185:18,24 188:14

188:16,19,22 189:9

[best - cards] Page 5

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
189:11 201:14

205:15

care 28:6,7 50:21

89:13 132:20 164:6

169:1 175:18

197:15 204:23

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case 15:11 33:22

46:19 47:1,15 69:2

146:6

cash 30:3,5,10

133:16,16,24,24

134:1,1,20,20,22,23

135:4,4 136:8,8,11

136:11 142:1,2

145:1,1,3,12 147:4

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149:5,5 163:25

164:13 166:4,5,9,9

166:14,14,16,16

194:23 196:14

197:13,13 203:18

casino 1:9 8:18

27:17 29:4 47:16

48:10,12 82:21

140:8 145:1 181:10

201:12

casinos 8:21 9:25

27:13,15 37:22

cause 93:13 95:15

123:11

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certain 12:13 38:9

46:18

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65:21 78:8 91:2,8

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4:10 6:5 23:20

64:23

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chance 7:13

change 13:7 22:10

39:9 43:22 45:12,14

57:7 63:14 75:11,11

75:12 79:24 80:1,11

81:24 86:3 93:6,9

94:20,21 99:9,19,20

99:23 100:13

101:25 102:2 103:8

103:16,23 116:4

121:22 126:7,24

127:11 130:1 150:4

159:1 165:6 192:4

192:16 193:2

205:12

changed 71:9 74:16

94:11,15 97:11

112:2 168:3,21

169:3 199:2

changes 39:8 43:21

44:15 98:18 99:25

100:23 101:6,21

112:16 114:11,13

114:25 118:21

119:9,10 124:1,3

127:11,18 128:23

137:17 160:20

165:18,19 192:25

193:8

changing 18:17 20:2

54:8 149:1 182:2

203:7

charged 148:8

check 3:17 6:7 14:13

22:2,20 41:11,16

56:12 60:3 110:2

114:1 139:5 207:24

208:7,11

checked 59:23

checking 124:10

170:13 208:14

checklist 8:6 11:16

11:17 14:13,17

21:10,12,20,23

22:23 23:9,11 26:23

31:11,13,16 36:13

40:2 49:21,22 59:16

59:20,21 60:4 110:5

129:23,24 130:1,1

147:12

checklists 7:18

14:14 22:7,12 32:1

36:3 130:5

checks 21:16

cheryl 1:24 57:10

chickasaw 50:8

chief 1:11

chips 139:7 180:4

choose 56:22 173:8

181:24

chooses 173:18

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56:5 100:4,22

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claim 84:13

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100:13 102:23

182:13 183:19

191:23

clarified 65:19

100:8 112:22

192:18

clarify 97:13 200:11

clarifying 98:24

102:4

class 16:13 18:14

22:1 46:6,7 55:11

55:15 79:13 89:21

103:10 107:14,20

108:10,11,19,20,21

109:1,9,14,16,17,25

111:5 122:18,21,22

123:1,2 170:3,5

173:14 194:25

201:14

clean 5:15 119:8

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175:10

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124:21

clear 65:7 71:14

72:22 122:12

145:23 146:20

198:22 200:8

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199:22

clearly 9:8,9 26:9

48:17 74:19 105:18

146:24

clearwater 1:9

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close 93:6 138:14

144:7

closed 56:23

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closet 191:16

codes 118:22

cognizant 20:15

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colors 118:19

combine 86:23

come 2:17 8:24

10:24 12:8 14:12,16

16:21 18:24 19:13

19:19 20:10 21:19

22:1,19 26:11,22,24

27:1 29:7,17 34:8,9

[cards - come] Page 6

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
49:6 54:18 57:22

58:16 65:13 73:14

88:5,11,19 89:15

93:13 94:3 95:20

96:12,20 97:7

101:24 103:8,9,15

103:17,22,24 104:1

104:4 112:10,18,20

123:19 125:2 143:1

143:3 144:16 152:7

155:1 161:12

163:11 165:13

201:12 208:1,8

comes 14:7 42:8

119:5 144:4 196:19

201:22,23

comfort 26:20

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20:6 45:4,12 53:15

65:10 101:23

104:14 113:21

157:11 162:25

163:2 176:4

coming 3:4 4:11

18:22,25 20:7 31:16

34:10 53:2 56:5

92:5 94:21 141:16

142:1 157:16

comment 12:22 18:3

40:11 41:13,14,16

43:4 56:14,18,21

57:1 58:12 59:14

61:17 87:20 103:19

103:25 113:13,15

114:7 119:16

128:12 133:15

134:5 141:25

169:16 170:18

171:6,9,25 182:14

183:2,12 191:8

196:24 197:12

198:2 204:22 206:7

206:16,17,18,19,19

206:23 208:3,5,7,13

208:18

comments 37:19

66:17 87:16 112:4

113:21,24 118:23

131:6 156:25 185:3

185:8 197:2,25

206:12 207:3,7

commission 11:14

39:9,17 44:25 45:20

72:4 78:21 83:24

85:19 93:16 106:8

181:16

commissioner 3:3

3:18 4:4 5:2,14,17

6:18 7:8 17:4 20:13

22:15 38:5 39:15

42:14 49:11 53:4,25

54:11 60:12,18

61:22,25 65:5 66:15

66:18,20 67:2,18

72:1,18 74:12 86:4

87:2,5,15,24 88:6

89:3 90:8 91:24

95:14 97:3,12 101:4

101:12 102:16,22

105:11,14,16,24

106:9,14 107:8,10

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110:22 111:1 112:8

113:14,23 114:19

115:1,14,24 118:4

121:3,6 123:5

124:15,20,23

129:13 130:10

131:7,20,23 132:2

132:10 133:3,14,20

134:11 136:15

137:2,5,22 138:2

152:1 155:11 156:8

156:12,18,21 157:2

158:1,13,19 160:8

160:12 161:15,23

162:3,13 164:16

167:3,16,21 168:6

168:10,19 169:2,5

169:12 170:9,14

181:15 182:3,12

184:4 185:5,13,20

186:18 187:2

190:14,18,22 191:4

191:24 192:5

193:12 194:7,16

196:1,7,21 197:3,17

204:7 207:2

commissions 20:18

39:8 79:11

committee 1:3 24:10

24:12,24 42:23

50:15 56:19 57:1

58:10,12 86:11

108:3,3 135:17

committees 86:8

common 28:3

136:18 188:21

190:17 196:8

communication

181:3

communicator

129:23

compact 122:18

companies 26:7,10

26:12 37:21 39:7

company 9:8 37:24

comparable 197:10

compare 131:8

comparing 110:3

comparison 3:14

60:25 61:20 66:3

83:21 87:17 90:23

113:1 115:6 118:20

119:5 130:21 132:3

132:9 156:15 158:8

158:16 159:11

168:12 169:15

183:21 184:3,13,16

193:11,16 204:18

competencies 49:3

complaint 28:11

complete 42:24 60:5

completed 83:18

130:5

completely 64:7

70:4 181:21

compliance 4:22

6:24 10:9,16 16:22

21:11 22:20,22,23

26:24 28:10 31:25

33:5 34:10 38:8

54:7,8,11,15 55:8

55:23,24 57:19 58:2

58:3 59:16,24,24

60:6 63:12 69:18

88:5,11 89:5,18

92:6,10 95:15,20

96:12,21 102:19

103:4,8,10,11,12,15

103:17,23,24 104:1

104:2,4,9,16 105:6

110:2 111:9,10

112:11,18,20

125:21

compliant 93:25

complicated 18:7

110:7

comply 27:15 29:24

80:19 90:12 105:19

105:19

complying 51:24

component 74:22

145:10,22 174:14

176:9

components 11:19

12:13 144:24 145:2

145:25

comprehensive

51:17

computer 131:25

132:5 160:15

concentrate 16:16

concept 4:21 19:15

29:18,24 64:11,11

64:12,20,21 65:8,8

80:10 86:2 97:22

101:13 119:20

122:9 123:3 163:2,5

192:16

[come - concept] Page 7

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
concepts 67:8

conceptual 99:24

100:12 101:24

207:20

conceptually 100:19

concern 14:25 22:18

24:21 28:25 90:18

95:8 104:15,22,23

108:24 109:7

115:18 127:5

139:16,18 140:22

145:9 148:13

149:16,18 150:2,23

151:17 154:23

163:8 179:9 195:8,9

concerned 29:10,13

47:24 149:24 155:4

concerns 114:5,16

114:25 150:14,15

150:17 152:7

153:20,23 155:22

162:23 206:25

concert 74:23

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conclusion 96:1,6

155:2

conclusions 65:11

65:13,17

conduct 154:9

conducted 70:13

confirm 3:22,23

confirms 206:24

conflict 72:15

confused 5:3 23:7

23:12 42:22 104:24

128:8 207:12

confuses 21:14

confusing 95:6

109:21 110:8

111:25 199:20

200:10,12 203:14

204:20 205:13

confusion 60:21

61:14 73:18 74:17

75:14 101:5 103:3

108:6 115:3 120:3

146:21 191:12

conjunction 43:24

73:2,12 76:4,8

108:19

connecticut 24:4

connection 7:3

consensus 56:2

128:18

consider 156:6

177:17

consideration

146:12 152:3

155:13 182:6

consistency 126:12

consistent 119:22

127:22 167:15

consolidate 80:7

consolidating 80:10

80:12

contained 106:23

contains 100:3

contest 200:25

201:17

contests 199:3,6,18

200:19

context 27:18

202:12,14

contingency 30:23

continue 46:14

153:21 161:8

contract 18:20

contracted 85:10

contributed 202:20

203:4,10 204:15

contributions

199:17 200:20

control 12:15 13:4

13:10,11,20 14:5

16:6,23,24 17:23

24:17 27:10,23 28:1

28:1,13 29:2,5,9

30:14,25 31:8 38:4

39:2 40:2,2 41:5

48:10 50:10 63:1

77:13 81:24 82:13

122:8 123:10,15,16

136:11 147:6,10

149:8,9 160:15

169:21,22,25

171:13 195:12

202:18 204:14

controlled 14:5,6

47:5 134:23 142:2

controlling 147:4

149:4 171:23

controls 8:19,20,23

9:1,3,12,18 10:12

10:20,22,23 11:9,15

11:20 12:1,6,10,11

12:13 19:3 21:18

23:25 25:15 26:18

26:21,23 27:3,5,21

28:12,18,20,22,23

29:18,25 31:6 34:13

48:13 62:20,21,25

71:5 77:19 82:11

111:14 112:19

132:25 134:5,20

135:17 136:13

137:14 143:14

147:11 149:12

150:5 163:25

164:10,13,14,15

166:5,9,14,16

168:22 175:1,8

176:11,23 178:7,25

179:23 184:14

185:9,10,16

conveniently 67:17

conversation 11:6

65:25 80:3 81:19

99:12

conversations 46:21

78:20 190:2

convince 80:3

cookie 19:6

cooperation 57:25

copies 3:11 5:13,16

copy 67:19 70:14

120:6

core 23:22 49:3

145:24

corners 174:2

correct 17:12 69:15

115:13 117:8 145:8

151:2 203:25

corrected 168:16

correcting 48:2

correctly 49:9,9

71:2 142:9,15

corresponding 30:8

cost 16:24 17:6,12

19:10,11 20:15,25

22:8,9 25:12,22

35:18,19,21 74:22

89:4

costs 25:11 35:17

council 36:17 39:8

51:10 82:23 83:9

89:14,15

count 132:6,19,23

134:15 136:2,2,25

138:14 143:7,8

144:5,11 170:1

counted 137:3,10

138:11 140:12

141:18 150:24

counting 124:10

134:5,9 136:4

137:15 140:1

143:17,18 144:7

145:5,6 147:14

150:3,7 153:3 167:9

197:11

country 9:9 26:7

28:24 46:1 47:18,19

47:23 155:6

counts 147:18

course 46:6 114:13

cover 132:23 135:11

142:22 160:14

161:10 176:19

186:11

[concepts - cover] Page 8

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
coverage 186:1

covered 3:9 73:22

73:23 141:3,6

143:19 151:4,4

152:14 186:10

206:2

covers 203:8 207:22

cp 35:8

cpa 16:5,6,21 33:18

34:7 39:23 40:16,22

41:4 63:4,16 66:22

68:25 69:8 70:2,14

77:17,20,24,25 78:2

78:7,11,13 79:25

87:21 91:14,15

cpas 32:10 63:4,24

cracks 81:6

craps 170:8

crease 174:7

create 17:11 33:3

34:5 142:17 155:5

195:12

created 29:23 67:22

122:22

creating 47:13

creation 27:25

credible 25:18

credits 144:1,15

148:3

crime 181:11

criteria 26:12

critical 174:13

176:9

crossing 95:8

culloo 21:9 22:18

35:14 36:2 59:14

95:1 105:13 112:13

116:19,21 128:1

136:21 141:8

143:24 146:19

152:11,16,21 153:5

159:25 161:17

162:10 172:4,20

174:6 176:11,18

177:25 178:4,9

179:4 181:20

187:16 192:2,7,11

193:1 195:5,24

202:19 203:3,24

culture 33:3,7 34:5

52:22 53:17

curious 117:11

current 32:6 46:25

52:1 123:19 159:20

205:20

currently 28:18

33:10 51:24 52:5

100:3 122:15

cursory 19:8

curve 90:1

cuts 20:18

cutter 19:6

cycle 145:3,5,11,12

145:13,25 172:8

178:22

cycles 29:21,22

178:24

d

d 44:6,11 158:12

171:3 183:17,19

185:24 186:7,9

203:17

dan 2:24 4:17 7:23

50:5 60:15,18,19

65:24 110:11

114:18 132:17

169:11 184:3

daniel 37:9 57:12

101:15 109:24

daniel's 52:18

date 87:20,23,25

88:1 90:21 91:2,4,4

91:6,7,10,11,17,19

91:22 95:3,10,18

97:8,21 98:24 99:1

102:5,19 103:4

105:7,10 111:8,9

130:24 183:25

187:1 189:24

dates 90:16 103:11

104:14,16 105:17

day 11:12 15:15

19:16 22:3 52:13

53:21,22 84:4

186:17 196:12

205:3,7,16,19 206:8

207:17 208:7,11,19

days 2:20 4:15

70:15 92:4,9 94:3

106:4,5,5 111:10

187:11,11,17

189:14,20 190:15

deal 22:11 23:18

49:8 95:8 146:6

155:25

dealer 170:10

195:14

dealers 172:21

dealing 10:19 31:3

deals 27:12

dealt 47:22,22 73:6

debate 120:14

december 1:12 2:1

88:19

decide 18:18 35:7

83:7 164:3

decided 14:7 17:25

86:11

decides 13:1 83:8

85:11

decision 12:20 15:4

194:21

deck 187:16

decks 188:11

decrease 171:1,1

decreases 170:19

198:23

dedicated 54:22

deem 139:14 155:14

deemed 95:12 96:5

161:7

default 161:5

define 12:14

defined 193:25

194:1

definition 141:8

194:2,15 195:11,21

definitive 91:22

92:24

degree 54:10

delay 31:17 106:13

delete 67:9,14

117:23 126:17,19

200:1

deleted 125:24

127:1 128:11

133:18 168:20,20

deletes 127:1

deleting 199:11,13

deletion 119:7

127:20

deletions 68:5,6

delving 17:22

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demonstrated 48:24

49:3

department 81:3

84:24

depending 33:2

106:4 119:22

147:24 149:13

depends 151:15

152:13 196:18

205:4,7,24

depth 14:17

derive 26:13

described 123:10

design 9:17 19:3

designed 8:23 28:19

134:23 146:10

desire 208:17

destroyed 171:15

187:25 188:13,22

destruction 171:19

171:21

detail 140:2

detailed 178:21

179:3

[coverage - detailed] Page 9

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
details 43:22 68:8

determination

80:17 102:24

determine 8:22

30:15 47:12 59:16

94:25 105:12 191:9

determined 93:3

determines 12:20

192:7

develop 23:15,24,25

24:11 29:2 31:4,6,7

38:12 103:21

143:16 149:12

164:8

developed 22:13

24:19 62:21 86:7

143:15

developing 24:12

27:21 48:4 51:16,16

62:18

dice 169:16,20,23,24

170:10

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111:12 125:16

135:18 136:12

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different 8:8 9:4,10

10:15 11:9 14:3

16:10,23 25:23 26:7

26:14 27:1,14 30:24

39:21 44:21 48:12

49:10 50:24 52:6

63:19 68:19 69:3,11

69:12,24 75:15 79:2

79:8 93:21 103:2,11

104:16 135:7

136:24 142:8 145:2

149:5,9,9,13 151:17

152:6,14 171:23

183:13 194:24

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136:23,25

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67:20 108:15 123:3

174:4

dinner 4:25

direct 35:18,19 57:1

154:4

directed 83:7

direction 47:12

155:20

directly 58:12 75:3

171:19

director 57:5

dirty 173:23

disagree 26:3

disappear 187:21

disclose 41:5

discovered 93:8

161:21

discretion 105:12

discuss 60:22 66:11

74:4 76:6 104:21

115:9

discussed 7:11 76:3

104:24 114:12,14

114:23 157:11

159:25 161:3

discussing 55:15

157:9 161:11

discussion 4:20,23

6:23 7:7 59:6,8,11

60:16 78:17 81:16

82:6 92:21 96:23

99:4,7 101:16

102:11 107:12

109:4 113:12

122:15 125:6 126:1

158:11 161:2,9

165:25 173:21

175:6 176:14 179:7

180:5 182:17

188:10 189:25

193:22 202:11

discussions 64:16

disrupts 161:2

distinct 74:20

distinguish 69:16

75:21

distinguishing

201:11

distribute 130:13

distributed 101:20

diverge 29:14

divide 5:24

division 38:8

document 3:12 4:18

6:11 11:21 13:23

21:2 29:16 30:17,24

31:2 45:1 49:21

50:1 60:21,23 61:20

62:19 63:21 64:13

72:14 76:3 87:17

90:23 99:13 100:2,5

100:6 101:5 107:11

113:1 115:12

118:20,21 119:5,8

119:10 130:2,21

132:3,9 133:25

138:14,17 146:23

149:23,25 150:5

151:8 154:16,18

155:18 156:16,24

158:8 159:11

160:19 168:15,16

168:17 169:9,15

171:2 175:16 177:1

177:3,4 179:19

181:17 182:6,18,24

183:1,20,21 184:13

184:16,25 185:11

185:11 189:9

193:11,16 202:5

203:22 204:11,18

206:11,15 208:15

documentation

146:10 147:15

155:10

documented 8:20

12:7 199:25 203:11

documents 3:14

5:11 7:5 19:24 20:9

23:22 29:22 31:15

31:21 34:23 37:7

43:3,6 45:10 53:19

53:22 59:9 60:25

61:8 65:20 66:2,3,6

66:7 67:5 94:13

101:17 112:2

115:16 118:18

119:13 135:14

137:13 138:9

147:18 150:12

158:18 164:1,3

167:7,11,14 170:19

174:19 178:17,18

180:20 183:12

184:5,6 185:14,15

185:22 200:13

204:8 207:4,11

dog 10:6

doing 4:1 14:2 16:2

19:12 20:1 21:14

22:3 28:2 32:12

34:9 36:12 38:1,14

38:15 39:2,2 40:19

42:11 44:6,6 49:8,9

52:2 54:13,24 57:12

75:5 96:3 98:12,18

101:23 110:15,16

113:17 115:25

126:23 128:3,10

144:8 153:10,13

154:22 160:6

162:18 165:21

175:10 180:12,12

205:6

dollars 26:11,13

dot 133:8

dot.gov. 125:3

double 124:10

draft 61:18 62:24

65:16 67:24 105:1

120:20 132:4

133:15 184:5,7,9

[details - draft] Page 10

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
drafted 65:4 164:2

drafting 100:5,7

101:14

drawings 199:4,6,18

driven 51:4,9 59:15

drop 124:19 132:19

132:23 136:2,2

143:18

dropped 199:19

dropping 132:24,24

136:3 143:17

due 48:25

dug 11:22

durable 174:7

dynamics 13:7

e

e 44:11 156:17,24

159:9 166:21,23

168:5,15 184:14,15

190:21 192:25

193:3,3,4

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68:19 83:13 104:25

115:2 159:24 177:6

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101:8 148:17

160:21 165:18

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146:2

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108:1,13 123:2

125:15 159:21

165:11 198:17

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50:13,19,20 105:7

105:10 107:17

111:8 134:17

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145:4

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146:17

effort 47:20 90:1

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eight 197:10,12,23

198:1,2,13,18

either 8:18 51:4

62:2 64:19 84:2

106:4,5 126:3

145:23 153:18

171:16 202:17

electronic 110:6

129:22 130:8

132:24 176:16,18

eliminates 61:2

email 3:19 5:18 6:9

embarrassed 57:22

embarrassment

53:21

employee 31:23

194:8

employing 173:22

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34:2,17,21 36:6,8

54:6

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78:5

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82:24 93:23 145:24

174:21 175:1

176:23 177:8 178:1

178:5

ensures 183:16

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175:1

entire 47:9 68:12

116:25 145:5,6,19

166:10

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86:20 108:25

entities 125:11

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69:2

environment 12:2

26:5 33:3 34:5

52:23 57:19

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176:13,16

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142:2 147:10

164:13 166:5,9,16

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149:5 166:15

197:13

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146:22

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117:17 121:25

149:23 167:7,13

197:20

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10:21 80:21 142:2

178:7 179:23

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13:11,20 57:7

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et 147:16

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2:25 3:1,4 4:9 7:25

29:16 32:12 38:10

48:5 50:16 54:15,15

55:24 56:2 64:18

76:16 90:22 91:23

93:15,16 102:6

103:13 109:19

115:15 127:21

130:7,20 144:21

160:11 168:4

182:11 193:6 197:8

204:16 208:8

everybody's 8:8

14:3 32:11 151:16

163:12

everyday 42:18

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exact 35:10

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45:7 66:20 100:17

146:13 158:19

202:25 203:12

examination 77:12

example 20:12

21:25 30:1 46:14

89:21 202:6,6

examples 163:17

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excess 24:4

excessively 103:20

exchange 133:16

144:10

exchanged 168:22

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[drafted - exchanges] Page 11

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
executive 57:5

exist 11:24 26:20

51:24 124:24

147:12 155:9

170:17

existing 78:6

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95:24

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18:21 20:7 21:17

22:9 32:10,13 33:19

34:8 35:8 43:24

63:7 69:8 70:14

75:16 83:22 84:1

92:24 143:20

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externally 85:20

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f

f 78:7 159:10 164:24

177:25 178:4,11,12

193:11 197:3,4

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20:16 23:19 28:5

36:10 47:9,25 48:1

48:25 49:18 54:21

82:22 125:10 154:8

174:13 188:18

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151:16

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38:3 64:15 65:20

107:7,21 126:6

135:2,5 140:8 172:1

203:13

fashion 136:17

169:21,25 171:13

175:10

fashions 171:23

fast 38:3,11,24 41:7

57:18 108:18

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90:6 104:3 105:5

feedback 23:6

122:11

feel 7:15 14:15

15:18 20:5 22:16

25:15 31:7 33:22

42:11 45:4,11 53:14

57:22 72:21 163:1

185:21

feeling 14:11 179:16

feels 66:8 122:14

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53:10 54:6 110:13

110:18

fight 10:6

figure 4:6 6:6 15:3

42:5 59:9 72:17

73:8 85:17 136:18

140:19 146:15

153:22 155:25

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111:13 112:19

138:6,6,7 143:1,2

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internally 21:21

22:5,11,13

internet 126:14,16

interpret 111:18

interpretation

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interpretational

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interpreted 88:2

inventories 137:9

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151:1 167:14

inventory 132:20

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156:21 162:6 168:6

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110:14

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110:18

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82:25 134:3 137:8

200:20

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irs 49:18

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193:17

issue 20:14 26:16

27:22 33:25 34:19

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issued 94:7 171:4,17

issues 27:12 42:2,17

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60:14 61:5 62:24

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ks 37:23

l

l 1:24

labeled 78:7

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letter 16:4,12 70:17

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level 10:4 12:15 19:9

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118:8 154:8

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living 50:1

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133:19 149:14

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185:25 191:22,25

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lock 186:1

locking 28:12

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148:22 149:21

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64:15 67:14 117:9

132:15 154:13

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145:18

lot 3:8 9:2 10:3

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manager 59:25

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manual 28:1

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Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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55:17 64:7 67:4

68:22 69:6,9 70:8

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87:7 88:4,8 89:6,20

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133:9 135:9,13,20

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176:25 179:8

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189:15,22 193:21

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move 67:10 68:3

86:12 103:14 113:8

124:13 136:7

148:12,21 152:3

153:17 156:5,17

162:4 169:13

179:14 182:8,11

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66:23 67:15 71:11

71:13 73:5,7 80:8

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132:12,13,15,22

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movement 132:12

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127:17 142:10

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n

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13:4,21 14:17,21

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75:25 76:20 79:4,18

80:12 83:11 85:17

85:23 97:15 102:13

104:20 111:22

114:1 115:13,22

118:2,7 125:1,22

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131:1 136:13,18

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143:13,16 148:15

148:19 152:4

153:17 164:10

167:2 176:3 182:19

186:22 187:21

191:20 192:13

196:17 199:9

204:24 207:8

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71:9 74:16 79:2

82:9 94:14 108:22

112:22 146:24

150:7 153:13

174:15,25 176:9

191:10,23 203:21

negotiation 39:1

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never 27:2,7 107:25

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new 19:15 26:9 49:6

53:21 57:25 67:23

78:21 79:11 88:16

88:19 92:13,15 93:4

93:25 97:11 107:17

130:22 163:2,5

164:23 181:16

182:21 183:3

184:19 185:24

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newer 89:11

nigc 7:1 10:6 13:10

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35:10 36:17 38:17

45:2 46:9 48:1

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reintroduced

188:14,19

reintroduction

188:22

related 7:5 59:10

131:1 134:5 137:14

176:2 193:4 204:12

relates 91:12 111:25

relative 11:6 16:13

16:16

relevant 95:10,12

96:5 198:8

rely 21:10 40:16

relying 32:13

remember 4:16 79:4

131:7 141:15 158:7

172:12,14 202:11

remind 83:12

reminder 79:12

reminds 202:9

removal 182:20

186:8 189:8

remove 187:18

199:22 205:15

removed 61:6

126:11,13 171:5

187:20 189:11

199:21 203:22

render 70:2

renders 69:1

renumbered 159:17

repair 176:15

repeat 117:13

139:19 170:23

repeated 148:24

repeating 136:22

replaced 132:5

replying 20:4

report 22:5 65:22

83:17 87:21 90:21

91:3,9,19,20,25

92:2,3,4,8,24 94:17

97:10

reporting 77:3

78:11 99:12 125:17

reports 22:2 25:13

33:18

representative 25:2

represented 51:14

represents 62:15

request 6:15 55:25

66:22 162:4,8

requested 38:9

55:16

requests 96:9

require 16:4 17:10

22:11 26:19 73:10

75:22 135:25

160:18 198:23

required 16:20,21

21:7 22:10 32:20

33:18 35:5 69:25

70:5 76:8,20,23,24

83:10 88:20,25

89:18 93:10 139:23

140:8 191:19,22,25

requirement 35:15

46:16 70:12,16 72:4

72:5 77:25 79:15

85:12 96:17,21

104:1 105:20

173:14 185:10

requirements 18:2

35:1 79:7 90:6

125:14 126:1 182:9

185:12,17

requires 154:1

requiring 139:25

reserve 89:6

reserved 117:9

resolution 161:12

resolved 207:10

resort 1:9

resources 21:6 33:9

34:5 52:10 54:18

respect 150:19

respectful 162:8

respectively 162:4

respond 23:5 37:17

responsibilities

63:22

responsibility 14:1

15:2 19:19 54:3,10

82:4 83:15,16 84:14

84:15,23 85:4 93:23

151:6,10 152:15

rest 3:13 15:15,20

15:21 16:19 22:16

33:1 35:23 36:20

37:6 39:16 41:4

42:16 46:23 50:5

51:19 61:4 62:11

64:13 69:14 71:14

73:24 80:14 82:6

89:20 106:25 114:7

114:16 115:11

123:7 127:16 139:8

141:12 144:22

145:8 148:11,17

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149:15 167:2

186:15 199:16

200:7

rest's 150:23

restated 148:25

restrictively 30:5

resumed 58:20

retire 189:11

retroactively 93:10

return 134:14 150:6

183:8,14 184:18

193:17

returned 199:24

201:24 203:10,18

returning 200:25

returns 151:12,14

reuse 189:11

reused 189:10

revenue 86:9,10,12

86:16,17 87:1 93:2

145:13

review 16:2,22

21:14,18 77:2 86:1

111:15 141:13,17

reviewers 14:23

reviewing 91:22

revised 31:15

100:14 112:22

130:21

rid 126:15 192:21

200:6

right 4:5,7 6:6 7:4

12:20 16:21 18:1,4

18:7 19:20 32:9

36:11,23 37:14,16

40:17 41:17 45:25

47:9 50:5 56:6,19

58:15 60:15 65:9,13

66:18,19 70:24

71:13,23 72:8,9

81:11,11 87:3,10,14

87:15 88:7 89:7

90:10 91:13 97:22

98:19 99:6 100:18

100:21 101:11,22

103:1 104:11

106:10 107:6 109:2

110:1,13,20 113:2

114:17 115:14,19

115:24 116:21

117:3,4 118:1 119:3

119:14 120:9,19

121:2,10 122:5

124:12,18 126:9,25

126:25 127:19

129:12 130:19

131:21,24 134:25

137:23 138:20

139:24 141:5

142:21 146:13

148:5 150:25

155:24 156:16

157:1 158:20

159:18,21 160:2

162:14,17 163:7

164:24 165:3,12

166:7 167:17,22

168:8,9,24 169:3,4

169:7 170:6 175:10

177:14 178:4 180:8

181:11,13,14 184:9

185:6,7 186:19,20

187:14 188:7 189:5

190:9,12,21 192:9

192:10,19,24

193:10 194:15,19

195:25 196:22

197:1,9,13,14,21

198:1,10 200:4

204:3,4,9

rigid 26:18 47:5

rise 69:13

rises 34:25

risk 4:21 6:24 7:2

9:24 10:3,19,19,24

11:3,6,24 12:5,21

13:8,19,24,25 14:1

14:3,9,10 15:12

16:7,16 17:3 19:7

20:5 21:23 22:4

23:24 25:16 26:25

27:2,8 29:13,19

30:9,10,20,21 33:11

35:7 37:5,5 40:1

49:16,24,25 50:3,9

62:2 83:12 119:20

122:7 123:18

139:14 141:12,20

149:7,24 173:19

205:8

riskier 13:8

risks 12:6,8,19 13:1

13:5,6,12,15,22

14:4,4 23:25 26:1

32:15 60:3 121:16

122:2,4 133:1

rita 130:15

road 143:5

robert 2:8 106:18

121:21 188:24

robin 25:8 31:9

129:20 130:14

157:7 164:19 191:5

role 13:3 14:12 15:5

15:6 18:15,16 32:7

32:11,17,18,25 33:3

34:2 43:22,23 52:22

82:24

roll 202:21

rolled 94:1

rolls 170:10

room 25:3 32:8

90:19 133:19,19

134:17,18 137:15

137:16,19 138:10

138:25 139:2,3,22

140:2,11,24,24

141:2,7,9,18 143:8

143:18,25 147:7,19

148:8 150:10,23

152:15,19,22 164:7

165:9 167:14

171:14,17,20

181:23 191:17

196:11,18 197:11

197:11

rooms 140:1 163:15

route 52:11

rudely 81:24

ruin 18:7

rule 34:19 88:19

105:20,23,23,25

106:4

rules 8:8 18:1 36:2

38:25 57:8 90:10

106:7 199:25

203:11

run 48:10 56:1

99:19 154:24

181:21

running 47:16

201:16,16,17,18

rush 130:1

s

safe 19:25 20:12

21:2 31:22 45:5

51:21 52:1,8,12

55:21 164:2 178:19

safely 4:9

sake 74:22

salish 2:9 109:13

sampling 18:24

sarbanes 9:7 26:6

27:15 29:23,24

satellite 140:15

147:8 152:12,22

164:11

satisfactory 16:14

satisfied 16:3

satisfy 148:13

saturday 3:24 205:6

save 130:9

saw 9:7 26:5 127:4

saying 16:12 36:7

39:3 42:16 46:23

49:5 51:21 59:21

69:14 70:22 71:6,7

71:8 72:10 76:4,25

78:23 79:21 81:24

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105:3 112:9 119:23

121:17 128:9

134:12 136:23

137:3,8 141:12,15

142:9,11,20,23

144:22 145:16

149:22 160:21

163:8 164:22 167:2

167:5 173:15 177:8

178:15 183:20

191:5 200:1

says 19:25 23:20

27:23 28:5 29:12

32:19,22 36:16 38:4

42:3 73:1 76:18

78:2,7 84:5,19

86:25 91:8 95:23

98:22 102:3 112:10

117:1,16 121:25

134:19,22 135:8

142:1 150:5 169:7

174:25 175:7 183:8

184:1,18 185:24,24

187:1,1 189:13,16

191:8,18 195:20,21

198:8 199:2

scam 188:21

scared 53:16

scary 53:23,24

scenario 12:17

36:22 93:13 203:12

schedule 2:18 58:16

scheduled 4:24 5:7

41:13,15 56:12

58:16

scheme 29:1

scope 60:3

screen 6:4,4 98:10

100:7 129:6 135:1,1

159:4 165:20

184:21 193:9

scrolled 98:11

se 83:1

second 35:22 36:15

46:5 57:10,11 68:11

107:5 121:14,24

126:13 127:3 152:9

162:7 170:18 186:5

189:16 206:7

seconded 37:12

section 59:12 62:8

63:8,9,17 66:24

67:14,15 68:13

71:11,13,15,21 74:4

74:16 76:9 78:23

79:2,18 81:24 82:2

82:10 84:3,3,12

85:2,6,21,22 86:1,7

86:13,18 87:20

98:15 101:7 104:11

109:22 110:7 112:6

112:24 114:10,24

115:9,20 116:14,18

117:1 121:9 122:5

124:3 125:1 126:2,6

126:12 128:10

131:4,9 132:12,13

133:2 134:18 135:7

135:10,18 136:1,6

138:12,15 140:18

140:19,23,24 142:7

142:11,12,13,17,18

143:13,19,23

145:21,22,22 146:1

146:4,5 148:23

149:6,8,16 150:9,10

152:25 153:1,6,12

153:13 155:17

156:1,6 157:8,10,12

157:21 158:23

159:6 160:4,14,17

160:17,19,24 161:2

161:6,9,11,13 162:5

162:11,11,11,12,16

162:16,18,18,19,22

163:3,5,8 164:14

165:13,17 166:3,10

166:15 167:8,24

175:12 176:7

177:12 183:6

184:17 185:9,12,17

186:8,9 190:12

197:4,10 199:20

200:17,17,19 203:8

203:17,21 204:20

205:1,14,25 206:3

206:23 207:21

sections 62:11,11

64:10 66:6,14 67:11

67:23 84:10 102:1

113:4 119:25

127:17 140:7

142:10,12,16,20

145:20 149:4 158:7

158:14 160:13

162:19

secure 185:25

secured 30:6

security 5:24 27:9

see 4:16,22 5:25

10:3,11 18:17 22:8

22:10,22 25:11,13

25:16,22 40:25

42:18 46:3 49:18

54:22 56:13 67:3

72:19 75:10 77:17

81:9 83:3 84:7,7,13

85:16 86:25 90:22

92:20 94:16 98:8,11

99:9 105:18 106:19

111:7 119:2,5,7,11

120:19 121:2,8

123:24 126:5 127:7

128:17 141:6

142:20 143:14

144:16 153:16

156:20,24 157:4

160:5 165:20,20

168:1,24 169:7

182:5,7 184:20

186:13 191:1

199:10 208:12,14

seed 201:5

seeded 201:2

seeing 49:19 64:10

64:17 148:23,23

seen 20:18 21:12

23:9 114:13 143:24

segment 146:11

segregate 182:21

segregated 183:3

184:19

select 82:22

self 131:5

send 5:19,20,21 6:10

11:22 21:17 22:2

83:17 130:12,15,15

130:17

sense 27:9 28:4,6

30:16 43:21,22

68:16 72:2 74:23

75:2 81:13,14,17,22

92:25 122:22

137:24 154:2

161:14,16 187:17

192:1

sent 3:20,23 11:21

29:16 38:8 62:4

130:5 171:19

sentence 111:24

114:20 116:4

126:18,20 127:1,2

128:11 189:16

200:7

sentences 200:3

separate 3:25 69:19

70:4 74:4,20 79:9

85:6 86:20 194:23

199:7,7 200:2,15

separated 3:25

84:25

separately 167:25

sequence 131:11

179:14

series 49:22

seriously 128:6

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Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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serve 19:24 90:3

93:21

service 18:20 189:11

session 6:16,19

54:25 56:24 59:1

set 4:15 5:5,7,15

7:17 10:21 25:23

27:10 29:6 32:18

35:5 39:4 51:17

64:12,17 67:7 78:23

105:20 130:23

131:12 178:18

sets 194:24,25

setup 14:21

seven 189:20 190:15

sheet 151:5

shift 43:19 44:8,24

134:6,10 135:20

137:12,15 140:1,12

144:4,6,10 150:24

shifting 19:19

shill 193:17 194:4

194:22 195:4,16

196:10,11

shills 193:12 196:6

short 3:5 190:5

shorter 106:3

shot 37:18

show 79:5 96:2

118:21 119:6

showing 53:23

shows 119:10

151:14

shuffle 172:22

173:24

shuffler 173:23

180:3

shufflers 175:5

176:20

shut 73:18 181:4

sics 112:1,12,14

side 32:9,9,10 35:18

48:16 50:3 84:8

118:25 119:7

155:21

sign 16:5 56:22

180:2

signature 137:11

signed 41:14

significant 24:6

33:15 35:25 93:12

95:11 130:4 150:4

signing 151:8

194:22

silent 133:16 135:5

199:18

similar 16:4 86:24

110:19 137:13

142:5

similarly 67:11

simple 146:22

simply 144:17

simultaneous 78:17

81:16 92:21 96:23

102:11 107:12

109:4 165:25

173:21 175:6

176:14 179:7 180:5

188:10 189:25

sing 195:5

single 49:20 149:5

sit 41:4 83:9 187:10

site 4:5 130:11

sitting 72:7 188:12

188:17

situation 24:25 39:1

88:25 140:3 144:16

situations 53:24

83:5 143:6

six 88:5,9,12 94:6

95:12,13,13,24 96:8

96:14,15,15,15

97:25 98:1,1,18

104:3,4,5 105:2,2,4

106:15 111:21

143:3 154:19

156:25 169:15

171:2 185:4 190:25

size 187:14 191:9

sized 37:25

skews 166:18

skills 21:5

skipped 113:5

skipping 129:14

slash 205:17

slot 9:25

slow 108:18

slowly 121:14

small 21:11 31:19

37:25 39:7 55:13

60:5 176:21

smaller 5:24 24:21

79:11 89:10 152:6

153:22

smokin 60:19

somebody 5:15

62:13 83:14 86:2

141:14,16 154:19

161:4 173:16,17

song 195:6

soon 6:1 23:11

sops 24:19

sorry 50:14 61:13

80:4 81:23 89:5

91:25 102:17

107:11,20 121:14

126:22 134:21

169:23 170:24

186:25 188:9 189:7

193:21 198:14

203:15

sort 11:23 12:1

57:21 135:20

200:24 202:13

206:23 207:17

sounds 36:5 164:16

174:14

sovereign 17:19

sox 37:21 39:6 47:17

47:19

space 187:14

speak 8:10 46:6

47:8 48:7 138:21

175:21

speaking 39:16

75:14 153:25

specialized 82:7

specific 8:2 17:11

64:24 91:13 97:18

98:12 99:1 112:23

132:21 147:5,17

150:1,18 155:6

160:22,22 164:7,10

174:15 187:15

195:24 198:22

202:14,20 206:9

specifically 30:2,21

31:19 137:17

166:13,16,17 183:6

202:16 203:17

204:25 205:14

specificity 206:21

specify 97:18 190:13

speed 204:17

spelled 141:21

spelling 163:4

spend 22:2

spent 89:22 162:24

split 75:25 145:19

splitting 145:7

spoke 31:12 41:20

129:24

spot 2:22 36:19

144:2

squared 6:12

stacona 17:16

150:21 151:13

163:10 164:23

165:10,24

staff 3:13 14:20

22:17 31:23 33:4,6

38:18 54:6,6,18,20

60:2 61:4 110:14

164:2

stand 28:18 144:19

standard 7:19 11:18

16:23,24 17:2 26:9

26:19 29:6,25 30:6

30:9,16,22,25 33:21

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56:1 65:4 89:1 96:3

108:23 131:9

133:16 134:18

136:24 163:19,23

173:1,5 174:5,16,18

174:23,25 175:7

176:25 177:7,9

181:22 190:15,16

193:17 198:12,21

199:17 206:20

207:1,10,13

standardized 19:8

158:14

standards 11:24,25

12:12 13:4,9,11,20

18:6 21:7 23:1,13

23:23,23 24:11,12

24:17 30:4,19 31:4

31:6 32:20,21,24

39:4 50:9 51:24

52:1 63:1 68:4

69:21 81:11,25

86:10,12 105:4

117:8,11,18,25

120:5,10,12 122:1,4

122:8 125:9 136:22

138:8 163:21

176:17 206:7

standpoint 10:9

11:3 15:6 47:12

52:6 93:4 176:5,10

stands 125:8

start 2:5 40:6,7,8

58:17 92:5 96:8

101:19 113:10

125:4 129:5 131:3

133:13 179:10

198:1,2 208:10,19

started 38:23 60:1

81:10 113:3

starting 62:5 100:6

starts 91:6 171:10

state 11:2 13:25

21:25 24:3 46:8

57:21 122:16,23

123:11 146:6

206:12

stated 30:21 107:22

174:25 201:4

statement 10:7

41:19 64:8 71:24

73:3 83:13 114:9

135:3 137:8 147:4

170:15 189:12

statements 9:23

10:2 69:1,20 70:3

70:11 125:11

stating 44:25

statue 37:12

statute 18:13 32:22

34:1,16 179:13

stay 2:23 54:10

55:23 106:2

step 33:20,21 44:12

141:1

steps 34:3

stevens 2:8 6:5

stick 86:3

stigma 44:22

stop 2:19

stopped 163:7

stopping 161:1

storage 182:9

185:10,12,17,24

store 187:6

straight 81:10

strange 118:19

stratify 16:11

streamline 133:4

strengthening 25:14

27:21

stress 19:23

stretch 107:13 172:9

190:6,7

strictly 11:8

stringency 123:3

stringent 46:11,12

46:20 119:19,19

121:18,19,20

122:13,13,17

strong 25:25

struck 205:20

structure 29:3,3,5

48:4 64:17 140:8

142:8 155:18

structured 47:4

structures 77:13

struggle 146:3

stuff 38:13 47:17

59:19 124:8 139:5

174:2 176:2 204:23

stymied 44:8

sub 142:3

subgroup 154:1

subject 44:14 62:5

67:10,12 69:10,13

73:6,22 78:24 81:12

82:11 95:24

subjects 103:3

submission 23:10,19

submit 16:5,12,13

70:1,14

submitted 31:12

70:17 76:14 183:12

submitting 18:2

23:22 31:25

subsection 81:8

159:5

subsections 157:18

157:22 183:15

subset 48:6,8

substantive 4:23

75:11

success 123:16

successful 62:19

63:2

sudden 92:1

suddenly 44:16

96:17

suffice 18:4

suggest 174:22

204:8

suggested 162:22

174:23 202:17

suggesting 45:2

180:18

suggestion 16:15

99:24 166:2 177:16

182:23

suggestions 150:14

suggests 189:13,16

189:23

summary 101:18

119:6 120:21

sundry 94:6

supervisor 143:12

151:7

support 41:23 43:4

43:6 51:5,10 65:15

93:22 135:15 197:6

supposed 23:10,12

23:15 34:8,9 63:24

73:21 78:22 137:19

suquamish 1:5,9,10

2:1,14,15,17 57:5

sure 3:9,16 7:24

14:3 15:12 17:16

21:4,6 32:12,15

34:6 43:1,10,20

54:10 63:12 64:14

67:19 73:21,25

79:10 82:5 83:10,14

84:16 90:13 95:8,18

104:15 111:14

113:7 116:16 122:3

122:11 123:6 133:1

154:7,20 155:8

163:17 165:9,23

175:18 178:12

179:15 184:23

204:17

surprised 153:8

surveillance 38:7

46:16 96:17,21

136:5,5 186:1

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suspect 40:13

sustain 196:13

syntax 73:1

system 25:15 35:21

62:20 111:13

119:11 142:24

147:11 164:14

systems 25:24

112:19

t

t 60:23

tab 60:23 61:15 67:7

99:16 100:5 101:19

131:15 183:17,19

184:14,15 185:23

186:7,9

table 4:3 7:25 32:9

83:4 138:18 139:5

144:5,13,17 147:18

148:6 149:17,19

153:21 155:21

161:5 181:1 182:20

tables 135:19 143:8

143:10,17 144:9,12

147:24 148:4

tabs 131:17 137:1

149:10 165:15

168:16,18,20

183:23 184:12

tac 42:23 43:18

58:19 152:8 208:13

208:21

tackle 96:22

tag 18:9

tagging 32:5

tahdooahnippah

69:20 72:10 83:23

85:7 87:22 88:1

94:24 95:3 107:23

112:5,15 117:13,20

118:6,14,23 119:24

120:15,22 128:9

129:8 138:1,4 153:9

159:1,7,9 172:11,18

175:17,22 177:11

178:11 187:10

190:24 197:23

200:22 203:16

205:19

tailor 25:20

take 4:5 6:1 10:9,10

11:18 18:14 24:15

26:6 28:21 34:20

36:8,17,25 37:18

38:20 42:6 43:9

45:10,18,21 47:13

49:5 50:8 51:20,25

52:19 77:16 79:19

83:24 84:10 86:11

89:13 109:22

111:12,20 118:10

124:14 125:1 129:1

138:5 140:25

142:16 146:25

148:11 150:9 152:3

155:13,25 164:6,8

169:1 171:20

178:19 182:6

189:13 190:5,6,6

201:2 204:23

207:12

takeaway 11:11

taken 6:20 27:7

33:21 61:7 68:5,7

129:3 188:15

197:15

takes 38:5 141:14

talk 29:18 34:22

35:17 59:10,15 62:2

64:20 66:8 67:8

80:16 125:23 131:1

132:6 152:6 161:21

163:15 165:15

174:10 204:10

207:8,11

talked 32:4 33:1

54:1 55:20 63:21

64:22,23 66:23

79:16 98:15 103:6

115:2 119:18,20

124:3 135:22 142:6

198:7 202:5

talking 9:21,21,22

9:23 12:4 16:10

27:8 39:7,20 56:3

65:25 69:11 71:12

71:22 73:15 74:17

78:21 80:12 81:10

111:10 114:22

122:9 136:1 140:23

141:1 144:25

149:19 150:22,23

172:15 175:13

178:16,17 179:9

180:2,3,3 194:22

201:11,14 202:10

203:6,7 205:2 206:3

206:5

talks 11:23 88:15

103:9 134:1 137:14

138:18 151:1

168:12 171:3

179:22 198:6

199:17 203:17

204:11

tampering 186:3

target 20:18 24:10

task 9:6 194:10,18

195:13,18,23,24

technical 21:3 33:12

34:10 54:2,14,19,23

81:10 117:8,11,18

118:5 120:5,10,12

176:16

technology 45:18

tell 9:15 25:3 40:17

45:6 48:11 53:14

73:18 81:21 83:11

92:23 98:21 104:20

137:6 147:11

153:11 179:4

telling 64:13 179:18

179:19

tells 144:2,18

ten 49:12 50:10

56:11 124:12

154:20 186:9 187:1

term 69:15 71:4

75:9 122:7,8,12

145:13 152:20

154:17 193:23,25

194:1 201:13

202:10,12

terminology 68:19

68:21 111:12

terms 5:10 12:25

27:20 60:16 126:23

142:6 146:16

test 8:25 9:3,17,18

102:7 116:2,19,20

123:25 126:24

128:20 157:9,17,18

157:25 158:3,22

160:5 167:19,23,24

167:25 193:6 197:5

testation 69:3,21

tested 116:22

testing 16:13 63:4

66:22 78:2,7,12,13

79:25 163:22

text 101:10

tg 98:23

tgra 54:25 63:11

80:21 82:5,12 85:4

85:9 92:15 93:19

94:13,25 104:5

117:17 121:25

133:5 174:25 177:7

194:12

tgra's 82:13 83:20

93:23

tgras 25:2

tgwg 23:8 61:21

62:18 98:16,19,23

99:8 100:13 101:5

101:21 102:4 105:3

106:23 111:16

114:11 116:4

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117:10,16 119:10

123:25 126:24

127:19 128:7

129:24 131:3 149:3

157:12 159:5 160:4

164:23 193:3

197:10 198:17

199:10 200:18

thank 4:8 58:6

74:11 106:10,21

thanks 2:8 3:4

130:18

theft 175:9 180:23

181:11

theme 154:25 155:9

theory 188:14

thick 24:19

thing 13:8 26:5

29:15 35:22 38:14

39:13 40:16 46:22

54:4 57:13 70:4

73:8 74:15 78:19

79:22 93:5,22 94:2

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167:19,24,25

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198:7 199:15

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things 9:3,16 13:7

21:24 22:1 29:17,21

30:24 37:7 40:21

47:21 59:10 65:22

67:10,21 68:2 73:16

75:15,25 79:16 80:7

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136:17 142:7,10,16

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181:1,9 193:4

200:15

think 3:15,24 4:2

6:6 7:8,13 10:16,18

10:20 11:4,10,13,14

12:8,16,24,24 13:13

13:21,23 15:4 16:3

16:8,14,19 17:22,23

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21:16 22:5,24 23:4

23:19 25:20 26:4,16

27:8,18 30:20 31:14

31:18 32:6 34:24

35:3,23,25 36:19,25

37:4 38:1,15,19,22

39:2,3,10,10 41:21

43:25 45:19 46:2,22

47:6 48:25 49:15,17

50:2,8,14 51:3

52:12 54:15 55:5

56:10 60:8,13,19,21

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63:9,21 64:16 65:5

65:9,18 66:21,21

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70:9 71:17 72:13,22

73:24 74:7 75:8,18

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79:16,24 84:4 86:14

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95:16,24,25 97:12

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107:16 108:4,7

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131:14 132:2

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186:9,17 187:13

188:5 189:2,12

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203:24 205:25

206:1 207:5,9

thinking 7:11,12

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79:24 126:11

157:20 166:4,8,24

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14:20 32:23 44:14

45:25 63:7 64:24

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102:20 108:9 109:3

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162:1,2 163:24

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27:23,25 28:5,9,9

29:11,12 35:12 38:5

38:14,14 55:21

127:7,13,14 128:10

138:16 172:9,25

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threshold 92:13,15

93:2

throw 173:9 174:12

thursday 3:22 205:6

tics 44:3 51:13,15,17

80:21,22 83:20

102:25 103:21,25

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112:1,7,9,11,12,13

112:18 147:6,11

tie 51:21 95:9 97:19

97:20

tied 75:3 90:16

tier 80:18 91:1 92:2

92:8,9 93:4,17,21

93:25 94:15 97:11

103:23

tiers 102:25 103:8

103:14,16

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time 6:11 8:5 11:11

21:18 41:11 44:23

49:25 56:11 65:21

67:20 75:1 81:20

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91:17 93:16 97:18

103:21 104:25

105:21 106:2

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128:4 146:14,21

148:10 153:17

162:15,24 185:18

186:11,13,16,17,20

186:21 187:1,3,4,15

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timeline 92:5

times 44:1 50:10

59:20 67:13 155:19

172:5 187:17

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38:15

touch 56:8 66:3

176:15

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202:21 204:12

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200:14,23 201:7

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tracking 128:17

171:20

tracks 4:17 122:3

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training 21:3 33:12

54:2,14,19,24 60:1

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transcriptionist

6:17 58:8

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17:20,25 21:22

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24:25 30:17 36:17

39:7,8 40:4,12 41:8

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tribe 2:14,17 7:17

13:2 15:5,7 17:1,13

18:17 19:19 20:22

20:22 22:9 24:24

26:17 28:17 29:2

32:9,13 33:1,18,24

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69:25 83:7 94:10

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28:15

tribes 15:1 18:13

19:25 20:15,16 21:5

25:11 27:20 31:19

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35:17,24,24 38:19

45:5,6,17,18 46:24

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52:23 55:7 58:1

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108:13 109:20

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154:11

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32:14 34:19 108:4

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19:17 24:10 29:17

34:18 37:13 47:21

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61:13,18 66:3 67:21

67:23 72:17 73:8,20

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132:11 136:10

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152:24 159:13

160:16 184:25

204:17

tulalip 2:16

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turn 2:6 44:2 62:4

73:19 171:14

199:10

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tv 91:16

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90:18 102:19

103:20 104:9 105:3

106:12,15

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99:22 103:2,10

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127:19 137:10

144:5,7 171:22

187:11 199:7 200:2

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type 9:6 13:15,16,16

24:13 33:7 35:20

69:17 88:23 96:4

98:6 154:12,25

155:9 164:5

types 10:15 25:2

26:15 39:5,21 50:16

65:22 69:12 75:15

90:14

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105:6,9 133:18

135:19 139:3,17,21

143:6 144:23

145:12 147:25

148:4 151:3 152:14

154:5 170:16

172:10,25 174:1,4

typing 98:4

typo 117:19,22

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u

uh 94:18 193:1

ultimately 93:20

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umbrella 73:23

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179:24 187:16

194:22 196:10

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usually 51:4,5,9

56:22 89:17 118:17

128:14 145:4

v

valid 47:6,6 162:9

182:18 206:17

validate 21:10

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41:9 44:10,18,18,19

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202:12

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154:19

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117:3 160:1,14

161:1,9,11 162:5,22

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w

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131:14 160:19

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4:5,8 5:8 7:6 11:13

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167:23,24 180:25

188:16 190:13,15

192:15,25 197:5

198:1 199:1 207:6

207:25 208:9,11

wanted 2:9 11:6

32:11,12 49:23

51:25 73:25 80:6

87:7 99:1 100:17

111:7 115:4,13

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131:14 132:6

133:11 150:12

wanting 65:7

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56:13 57:1 152:2

196:19 208:14

wary 20:25

wash 173:18 178:22

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34:22,23 54:5 56:23

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web 4:5 130:11

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122:14 123:19

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123:21 134:8

wordsmithing

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155:22 163:11

192:12

workable 108:23

worked 24:24 56:23

67:9,10,16 149:3

working 2:25 3:12

3:13,19 6:16,19

8:23 9:19 18:5

30:17 31:13 43:23

49:12 50:17 54:4,17

55:5 57:17,25 62:12

62:14 64:15 65:11

65:16 67:5,9 71:3

73:5 75:19 80:6

99:13,15 120:20

129:25 159:17

164:4 172:12

193:22

works 18:7 19:18

37:22 49:7 56:20

83:5 153:16 168:1

world 19:15 26:8

27:17 29:21,23 47:2

53:1 79:16 96:2

173:14

worried 42:8 132:25

worries 19:21,21

worrisome 19:20

worry 78:20 79:1

89:8 108:7

worthwhile 66:11

wow 59:23

write 22:4 34:19

36:20

written 18:11 43:5

115:10 146:19

156:3 193:18

207:14

wrong 10:1 35:24

104:20 137:7 145:9 x

x 27:24,25 35:16

189:14

y

yeah 5:2,4 6:4,10

37:18 39:18 60:12

66:15,21 79:4,21

90:8 92:19 94:12

97:23 106:16

112:10 113:14,24

120:13,16,19

121:23 123:12

124:17,23,25 135:2

151:13 166:25

168:24 170:14

172:19 174:3,3,20

175:11,12 178:9

184:10 190:15,19

192:6 194:1 198:20

201:6 203:5 207:5

year 49:12 50:1

59:25 70:16 88:14

88:15,20 89:1,12

91:7,11,13,22 92:4

92:7,12 93:2 94:4,9

94:22,23 95:9,9,19

96:20,20,22 97:10

97:20,21 98:25 99:3

102:6 104:6

years 57:20 90:2

154:20

yellow 128:15,18

yep 191:1

yeses 59:23 60:10

yesterday 5:6

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