1 NATIONAL INDIAN GAMING COMMISSION

2 CONSULTATION MEETING

3

4 Phoenix, Arizona

5 March 27, 2013

6 1:12 p.m.

7

8

9

10

11 Job No. NJ1625154

12

13

14

15

16 REPORTED BY:

17

18 Cindy Bachman

19 Certified Reporter No. 50763

20

21

22

23

24

25

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1 THE NATIONAL INDIAN GAMING COMMISSION,

2 CONSULTATION MEETING, taken on March 27, 2013,

3 commencing at 1:12 p.m. at the PHOENIX CONVENTION

4 CENTER, 100 North Third Street, Room 221 AB, Phoenix,

5 Arizona, before CINDY BACHMAN, Arizona Certified Court

6 Reporter, in and for the State of Arizona.

7

 COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT

8

9 Tracie Stevens, Chairwoman

10

11 Daniel Little, Associate Commissioner

12

13 Alison Grigoinis, Staff Attorney for NIGC

14

15 Eric Shephard, Assistant General Counsel for NIGC

16

17 Christinia Thomas, Deputy Chief of Staff.

18

19 Sarah Walters, Counsel to the Chairwoman

20

21 Michael Odie, Director of Public Affairs

22

23 Lance Vallo, Region Director, NIGC, Phoenix

24

25 Sally Virag, Associate Assistant

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1 (The meeting commenced at 1:12 p.m.)

2 * * * * *

3 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Welcome to the NIGC

4 Consultation on our two proposed rules 543 and 547, as

5 well as our draft consultation policy.

6 Let's start with -- we don't have anyone here

7 for a welcome, so my apologies.

8 And also I want to apologize. We had a mishap

9 with the shipment of our material that is normally

10 here. And it's not here, so I apologize. But all of

11 this information can be found on the website, and it's

12 downloadable. And the comment period runs into April.

13 So, again, my apologies on behalf of the

14 Commission. We had a little snafu.

15 So why don't we start with introductions.

16 Let's start with those in the room. We'll start to my

17 left, and we'll go around into the back of room.

18 MS. POUST: Hi. Terry Poust. I'm an attorney.

19 MR. PLATA: John Plata with Hobbs & Strass.

20 MS. GREEN: Nancy Green with Green Law Firm.

21 MS. HOMER: Elizabeth Lohah-Homer, Homer Law

22 charter.

23 MS. MORONGO: Shelia Morongo, Oklahoma Indian

24 Gaming Association.

25 MS. THOMAS: Paulene Thomas, Navajo Nation

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1 Gaming Regulatory Office.

2 MS. CHINO: Good afternoon. Carleen Chino,

3 Navajo Gaming Regulatory Office.

4 MR. MANUELITO: Henry Manuelito of Bishop

5 Pauite, California.

6 MS. BOBTAIL BEAR: Marianna Bobtail Bear,

7 Executive Director of the Arizona Gaming Office.

8 MR. WATERS: Dwayne Waters, Executive Director

9 of the Quechan Gaming Agency.

10 MR. SIMMONS: Brad Simmons, Nottawaseppi Huron

11 Band, the Gaming Commission Chairman.

12 MR. CHISSOE: Richard Chissoe, Pueblo of Laguna

13 Gaming Control Board.

14 MR. CONRAD: Randall Conrad. I'm the new

15 training manager for NIGC.

16 MR. NORMAN: William Norman with Hobbs &

17 Strass.

18 MR. WEBSTER: Joe Webster, also with Hobbs &

19 Strass.

20 MR. ELSON: Jack Elson with the Gaming Board.

21 MS. ECHOHAWK: Lael Echohawk, Quinnah Tribe.

22 MR. HOLMES: Daniel Holmes with Rubin Brown.

23 MR. HOFSTETTER: Andrew Hofstetter, Soboba

24 Gaming Commission.

25 MR. SANCHEZ: Vanchez Sanchez, Peublo

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1 Regulatory Agency.

2 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Well, welcome. And we'll

3 go ahead and introduce our staff. We'll start to the

4 left again.

5 MR. SHEPHARD: Eric Shephard, Assistant General

6 Counsel for NIGC.

7 MS. GRIGONOS: Alison Grigonis, staff attorney

8 for NIGC.

9 MS. THOMAS: Christinia Thomas, Deputy Chief of

10 Staff.

11 MS. WALTERS: Sarah Walters. I'm a member of

12 the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe, and I'm the counsel to

13 the chairwoman.

14 MR. VALLO: Lance Vallo, Region Director, NIGC,

15 Phoenix.

16 MR. ODIE: Good afternoon. Welcome.

17 Michael Odie, Director of Public Affairs.

18 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: And we have Sally who's

19 outside taking care of registration. She's the

20 administrative assistant here in the Phoenix region.

21 My name is Tracie Stevens.

22 And why don't you go first.

23 MR. LITTLE: My name is Dan Little. I'm the

24 associate commissioner here with the NIGC. And I want

25 to welcome you all today.

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1 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: I'm Tracie Stevens. I'm

2 the chair of the NIGA and also a member of the Tulalip

3 Tribe of Washington State.

4 And today, I welcome everyone. I appreciate

5 it's probably been a very long week for all of you.

6 We do try to coordinate with widely attended Tribal

7 gatherings for consultations or other meetings that we

8 may have.

9 Yesterday, there were some questions during my

10 presentation to the general membership about

11 sequestration. What we'd like to do is -- because we

12 have this time scheduled for an official consultation

13 with Tribes, we'll go ahead and take care of that. And

14 for those who do have questions, we can talk about it

15 when we're done with the consultation meeting.

16 So with that, we'll go ahead and get started.

17 Am I missing anything? It's been a long couple of

18 days, and I'm sure it has been for all of you. So I

19 appreciate you staying at the end of the week.

20 Tribal consultation meetings are between Tribal

21 government and the Federal government only. Only

22 Tribes and their designees can attend and participate

23 in these meetings, and they are not open to the public

24 or to the press.

25 This is following along with the executive

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1 order on Consultation 13175 that President Obama

2 reaffirmed in 2009, in particular, under Section 3, in

3 determining whether to establish Federal standards --

4 to consult with Tribal officials as to the need for

5 Federal standards or other alternatives.

6 And so as has been our commitment as a

7 Commission, we will review every comment that's made

8 here, also those that are submitted to us in writing.

9 And just know that the commissioners do read all of our

10 comments. And they are all posted on the website so

11 that we have a clear and transparent process.

12 The transcripts will also be posted on the

13 website, as will any written comments that are

14 submitted for this rulemaking process or with regard to

15 the consultation policy.

16 Before we start on this, I do want to remind

17 everybody that we do have a transcriptionist here.

18 This is Cindy back here. She is transcribing so that

19 we have a record of this that we can post for those who

20 are unable to attend the consultation meetings.

21 So when you do have a comment, we do

22 respectfully ask that you, one, use a microphone -- and

23 we will have to share these microphones that are at the

24 table. I just usually put the stand aside because it

25 tends to get in the way -- and also state your name and

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1 the Tribe that you represent here today.

2 So with that, I do want to turn it over to

3 Alison and Eric to do the first portion of our

4 consultation, which will be on 543 and 547.

5 MS. GRIGONOS: Good afternoon again.

6 We did a major overhaul of 543 and 547, as you

7 know, back in the fall, in September. And after we put

8 that into place, we realized that there are just a

9 couple gaps that we had as it relates to kiosks. So we

10 wanted to go ahead and make sure that the standards

11 that we were putting in place for kiosks were going to

12 be consistent with card games and with player

13 interfaces.

14 So these new proposed rules were published

15 February 20, 2013, and our comment period is going to

16 close April 22, 2013.

17 So they're pretty basics. I'm going to just

18 walk right through each one of the proposed rules.

19 The additional standards that we're going to have are

20 going to be for Drop and Count and for surveillance.

21 So the first proposed rule is the definition

22 for a currency cassette. A locked compartment that

23 contains a specified denomination of currency.

24 Currency cassettes are inserted into kiosks, and they

25 allow them to dispense currency.

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1 We have put forward this definition because we

2 refer to currency cassettes throughout the Reg that we

3 published back in the September. So we just wanted to

4 break that out into a new definition.

5 So moving forward, the next proposed rule we

6 have is for Drop and Count. The additional standards

7 mirror those for card games and player interfaces, as I

8 mentioned, and there's just a few kiosk-specific

9 provisions I want to go over.

10 The controls and the procedures to be

11 established must also include the fill process; three

12 agents must be involved in the kiosk drop; and redeemed

13 vouchers and pulltabs (if you have kiosks that

14 distribute pulltabs) collected from the kiosk drop must

15 be secured and delivered to the appropriate department

16 for reconciliation.

17 Oftentimes that's accounting, but, again,

18 that's up to the Tribes to determine.

19 So moving forward to our next proposed rule.

20 We have another MICS for Drop and Count. This is

21 required to run a report prior to the kiosk processing

22 any transactions every time the currency cassettes or

23 the financial instrument storage components are

24 accessed.

25 And the next proposed rule talks about what's

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1 going to be included in that report. So the kiosk

2 report has to include the date and the time; the unique

3 asset ID of the kiosk; the unique idea of each

4 financial instrument storage component in the kiosk;

5 the total amount of currency dispensed; the total

6 number of bills dispensed by denomination; the total

7 dollar amount of vouchers accepted; and the total

8 number of vouchers accepted.

9 And if anyone has any questions, feel free to

10 jump in. I don't think we mentioned that, but jump in

11 anytime.

12 So moving forward, we have surveillance

13 standards for kiosks. Cameras with sufficient clarity

14 will be required for kiosks. And the rule is the

15 surveillance system must monitor and record a general

16 overview of the activities occurring at each kiosk with

17 sufficient clarity -- and, again, we broke that

18 definition out last time -- to identify the activity

19 and the individuals performing it, including

20 maintenance, drop or fills, and redemption of wagering

21 vouchers or credits.

22 So that is the end of 543. I don't know if you

23 have any comments with regards to 543 before I move

24 into 547.

25 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Do we have any comments or

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1 questions about 543?

2 Did you raise your hand, Joe?

3 MR. WEBSTER: Joe Webster on behalf of the

4 Seminole Tribe of Florida.

5 We're going to be submitting some detailed

6 written comments. We would certainly like the idea in

7 terms of coming up with internal controls for kiosks,

8 but we do think there are a number of areas that

9 probably need to be clarified.

10 Just a few items. One, in terms of kiosks,

11 there are number of different types of kiosks. And the

12 way that it's defined right now, it may not be as

13 precise as what it could be, in terms of the

14 promotional kiosk versus a kiosk for other purposes.

15 Also with currency cassettes. In some cases,

16 rather than being locked, we know that those also could

17 be secured with numbered seals. So the proposed rule

18 would seem to require that they be locked. And in

19 terms of industry practice, we're not sure that's

20 necessarily consistent.

21 In terms of other items, you know, I think in

22 terms of having a requirement of having three people

23 for the count, and, again, especially in smaller

24 facilities, that may be excessive.

25 But in general, we'll be providing detailed

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1 written comments to follow up. But I just wanted to

2 let you know we do have some concerns at our casino.

3 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Okay. Thanks, Joe.

4 We have heard from others at the Oklahoma

5 consultation similar comments as yours, in particular

6 about the number of individuals that need to be there

7 and any suggestions about coordinating it or

8 paralleling it to other parts of 543 or the TIERS, for

9 that reason that there are some facilities that just

10 are not going to have that number of individuals.

11 So we certainly have heard that comment, and we

12 welcome more comments and any Seminoles-suggested edits

13 or revisions.

14 MR. WEBSTER: Okay. Thank you.

15 MS. GRIGONOS: Anyone else before I move on to

16 547?

17 547 is pretty basic. We were just kind of

18 correcting an oversight on our part. We're just

19 bringing the charitable gaming threshold up to

20 3 million. That's just to be consistent with 543, as

21 we published back in September.

22 And so the comments are due on that April 8,

23 2013. And, again, just to create that consistency with

24 543.

25 So we'll take a break here for a quick second

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1 before I go into the consultation policy.

2 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Any other comments on

3 either Part 543 or 547?

4 Okay. We'll go ahead and go onto the draft

5 consultation policy. I know that there are some

6 concerns about why this is so different than the one

7 that was published in 2011.

8 In 2011 -- and I had been a part of this when I

9 worked over at DOI. It was the Department of

10 Interior's effort to comply with President Obama's memo

11 on Tribal consultation that was written and signed in

12 2009, directing all agencies and departments to consult

13 with Tribes and develop a consultation policy and

14 progress.

15 When I came over to the NIGC, part of the

16 Tribal consultation team over there when they were

17 developing their policy included all the Bureaus, and

18 NIGC had started to participate in the early

19 developmental stages.

20 The department had put together a Tribal

21 Advisory Committee with individuals from each of the

22 BIA regions. And they had drafted that very similar to

23 what we had published in 2011.

24 As the Tribal advisory committee progressed in

25 their work, they made, what would be, I think,

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1 revisions that were meant to streamline and use more

2 plain language and just be more concise and to the

3 point about what the Department of Interior's policy

4 would be.

5 And that policy was adopted in -- I want to say

6 that December of 2011, and the secretarial order was

7 issued.

8 Now, certainly the NIGC, while we are under the

9 Department of Interior, we're not part of their

10 department's manual and are not necessarily subject to

11 the secretarial orders.

12 So when the secretary and the Tribal Advisory

13 Committee had come up with the final draft and they all

14 agreed upon it, Secretary Salas had already ordered a

15 secretarial order having all departments do their

16 portion of the department's policy and develop their

17 own practices, but having the department's guidelines

18 in their policy as the framework for what their bureau

19 or their agency will do.

20 With that, we --in an effort to make the lives

21 of Tribes better when you have to consult with agencies

22 and bureaus within the Department of Interior, which we

23 are -- try to remain consistent.

24 But at the same time, preserve our authorities

25 and our responsibilities under AGRA. So we did adopt a

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1 number of the things that came from the department's

2 policy that exists today, but also retained those

3 authorities and responsibilities that we have under the

4 act.

5 And so this all was an effort to try to create

6 some consistency so the Tribes have something similar

7 to deal with.

8 Now, our actions, I think, have been -- with

9 regard to our practices and consultation -- pretty

10 consistent over the past two and a half years, so you

11 know what to expect from us.

12 So we're trying to solidify what it is that

13 we're doing and put it in writing and create some

14 benchmarks for ourselves as well. But do it in a way

15 that's very clear and, frankly, just remove a lot of

16 language that might have been repetitive and just to

17 pair it down.

18 While we were deciding to do this, we also

19 heard from Tribes that there are different consultation

20 practices across the administration. And certainly

21 that weighed in our decision to try to streamline the

22 process and mirror or parallel, where appropriate,

23 DOI's policy. So that's where this document comes

24 from.

25 Alison and Eric and Sarah were instrumental in

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1 coordinating this. So I'm going to hand the microphone

2 over them, and they'll go through, basically, the

3 highlights of what the current policy is.

4 MS. GRIGONOS: Thanks.

5 So Tracie pretty much walked you through the

6 overview that I was going to talk about --

7 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Oh, sorry.

8 MS. GRIGONOS: No, no, no. That's prefect.

9 -- and elaborated a little bit more on each

10 point.

11 But just to reiterate, try to create some

12 compatibility and consistency for Tribes, try to

13 streamline the concepts that we had introduced back in

14 2011.

15 So I'm just going to walk through it section by

16 section. And, again, if you guys have any comments or

17 question as relates to each section or the policy

18 overall, please feel free to jump in and interrupt me.

19 So starting with the Preamble. Again, it's

20 just an introduction as to what is the purpose of

21 consultation.

22 We talk about, where does the responsibility to

23 consult come from? Why does NIGC need to recharge

24 their Tribes? Well, we recognize that we have that

25 responsibility to consult, and it's based on the

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1 U.S. Constitution. It's based on Federal treaties.

2 It's based on statues, executive orders, and policies.

3 And, again, we reference the Executive Order

4 that Tracy mentioned earlier, the 13175. So all of

5 that kind of comes together and creates our

6 responsibility on us to reach out to you guys before we

7 put forth anything.

8 And, again, it does recognize the Tribal right

9 to self-governments and to sovereignty.

10 So moving forward to the next section, the

11 Guiding Principle section. So consultation is

12 hopefully going to government-to-government

13 consultation between Tribal officials and Commission

14 officials.

15 So the Commission is here before you today, and

16 you as Tribal leaders are here, and we're reaching out

17 to you.

18 So what do we want the consultation process to

19 look like? Some objections for the process is what

20 we've put in this section.

21 We hope that we demonstrate meaningful

22 commitment, and we ensure continuity. We emphasize

23 trust, respect, and shared responsibility. Open and

24 transparent communication. And we've conducted all of

25 this in good faith.

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1 As far as the goals for consultation, what do

2 we hope to get out as a result of consultation? We're

3 hoping that it leads to effective, efficient Commission

4 operations and governance practices.

5 And we're hoping that it ensures federal action

6 is achievable, it's comprehensive, long-lasting, and

7 that it reflects Tribal input.

8 Moving forward to the Definition section. That

9 section is pretty basic, but I just want to touch on

10 probably the most important part of that section.

11 When is consultation triggered? So that is

12 broken down into a Commission action with Tribal

13 implications. And, again, this is similar to our 2011

14 draft.

15 So any Commission regulation, rulemaking,

16 policy, guidance, legislative proposal, or operational

17 activity that may have a substantial direct effect on

18 an Indian Tribe on matters including, but not limited

19 to, the ability of an Indian Tribe to regulate its

20 Indian gaming; an Indian Tribe's formal relationship

21 with the Commission; or the consideration of the

22 Commission's trust responsibilities to Indian Tribes.

23 So that's what's going to trigger consultation.

24 However -- and this relates to just our role as a

25 regulator -- it does not include enforcement actions or

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1 litigations or settlement negotiations or where a court

2 has decided that we just can't speak about something.

3 That has been consistent across the board with

4 our previous policies and that was also in our draft

5 policy. It's also in the DOI policy, but we've

6 included enforcement actions.

7 So moving to the next section, the Accounting

8 and Reporting section. This section really codifies

9 what we've been doing as a Commission during our

10 consultation process.

11 As Tracy outlined when we started, we have

12 someone transcribing every single consultation. We

13 post that to the website. We take all your comments,

14 and we post those to the website. That way, even if

15 you're not able to attend in person, you get a sense of

16 what's going on.

17 And then we also put out our proposed rules and

18 also our final rules. We really just wanted to put

19 that in writing and kind of caption what we've been

20 doing so far.

21 In the next section, we have the Training

22 section. And now with Mr. Randy on board, he'll be

23 able to help us with this section.

24 The Commission plans to develop its own

25 training for NIGC employees. We always try to reach

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1 out for people that have knowledge of Indian gaming and

2 Indian Tribes, but sometimes people bring some other

3 skills to the table, and we're interested in helping

4 them learn a little bit more about Tribal Government.

5 So our goals for the training is that it will

6 promote consultation, communication, collaboration, and

7 other interaction with Tribes. It will outline and

8 reinforce the Commission's duties concerning Indian

9 gaming. And it will describe the legal trust

10 obligation of the Federal-Tribal relationship. Not

11 everybody's familiar with that.

12 And it will highlight and provide the

13 knowledge, skills, and tools necessary for

14 collaborative engagement between Tribal representatives

15 and Commission staff engaged in the consultative

16 process with attention to the unique distinctions

17 within Indian Country.

18 So we look forward to working with Randy to put

19 that together for us.

20 Moving on to the next section, this is

21 Innovative and Effective Consultation Practices. And

22 really this talks about how will the Commission caption

23 Tribal input?

24 So we plan to host regular meetings between the

25 Commission and Indian Tribes. You've probably been

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1 familiar with the number of meetings that we've already

2 had.

3 We plan to communicate through a regular

4 gathering of Indian Tribes to discuss improving

5 consultation practices and procedures, similar to what

6 we're doing today. We want to try to tie our

7 consultations into general meetings where Tribal

8 leaders are getting together, such as NITA and NCA,

9 et cetera. And we try to attend also regional

10 gatherings as well. Like I know they were out of

11 Palm Springs last week meeting with you all.

12 So we hope to solicit recommendations from

13 Indian Tribes for the initial development of

14 performance measures, and, thereafter for the

15 evaluation of consultation practices.

16 The next section is the Consultation

17 Guidelines. So when the Commission is considering a

18 Commission action with Tribal immigration, what is the

19 consultation process going to look like? What are the

20 various stages?

21 So there's the initial planning stage. There's

22 that 30-day notice. We put our notice out that we were

23 going to plan to meet here with you 30 days ago. And

24 that's just going to let you know there's going to be

25 an opportunity to consult on something.

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1 And then we move into the proposal development

2 stage. This is where we work with Tribes. We give

3 consideration to the Tribal schedules, coordinate with

4 other national conferences, such as NCAI, NIGA, USET,

5 et cetera.

6 And there's going to be multiple processes for

7 capturing Tribal input. When we were putting together

8 543 and 547 back in the fall, we worked with a lot of

9 Tribal groups that work on the Tribal Advisory

10 Committee to work on the rules that we ended up going

11 final with.

12 And so the last stage is really the

13 implementation stage of the Final Federal Action. This

14 is where the Commission will consider whether we need

15 to do more training to let you guys know how the

16 regulations are going to work in practice. And, again,

17 this is where you guys can reach out to us and let us

18 know if you need more assistance in that area.

19 And so the final section I'm going to go over

20 is the Limitation section, and I touched on this

21 earlier in the definition section. We really just

22 modified the DOI policy to reflect the Commission's

23 role as a regulator.

24 And, again, it excludes consultation on

25 enforcement actions, litigation, and administrative

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1 appeals in front of the Commission.

2 So that really wraps up the consultation

3 process and the policy. I just have a final slide and

4 it's really if you need to contact us to submit your

5 public comments, you can email it to us, you can mail

6 them to us, you can drop them off in person, or you can

7 fax it to us.

8 But I'll turn it back over to you guys and see

9 if you have any questions or comments for us.

10 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Okay. Do we have any

11 questions or comments on what Alison has discussed or

12 if there any observations that you want to make?

13 MS. HOMER: As I indicated yesterday, I think

14 that your former consultation policy was probably the

15 best one I've ever seen drafted by a Federal agency.

16 And I sat in your role. I was very

17 instrumental in the development of the consultation

18 policies during the Clinton administration for the

19 Interior Department, very much a part of developing

20 policies for the NIGC during my term in NIGC.

21 And I just felt very disappointed to see the

22 good language that you had in your former policy that

23 really reflected the -- not only the relationship

24 between the NIGC and Tribal governments, but also set a

25 policy tone for the agency that I thought was very

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1 positive and very favorable.

2 So I felt, when I read this, that Tribes had

3 been consulted with that policy. I think that you

4 probably got a lot of favorable feedback about the

5 policy. And the fact that Tribes go to the effort to

6 give feedback and input and be in favor of something

7 the agency has done should be more meaningful than

8 streamlining it to look like the Interior Department's

9 policy.

10 During my tenure on the NIGC, I felt very

11 jealous and guarded very much the independence of the

12 NIGC. I believe that the NIGC is an independent

13 regulatory agency, and I think that that's a very

14 important thing.

15 And you're not a subordinate entity of the

16 Department of the Interior; although, you are

17 administratively attached to the Department of the

18 Interior. And I don't think that you have to just

19 adopt the same policies as the Interior Department, but

20 should have policies that really reflect the very

21 unique role that the NIGC has.

22 You're kind of regulators with Tribal

23 governments. You have shared regulatory

24 responsibilities, and I thought the earlier policy

25 reflected that in a way that the current policy does

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1 not.

2 And that is not to be mean or to discount the

3 work of the drafters of the new policy, but just to say

4 that you did a real good job, and I wish that you would

5 readopt that approach and that policy because it was a

6 really, really good effort.

7 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you, Liz. Will you

8 or any of those that you represent be making written

9 comments?

10 MS. HOMER: Yes.

11 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Okay. That would be

12 great. And if there are particular areas from the

13 previous policy that you want to emphasize that may be

14 missing from this current policy, that would be very

15 helpful to us.

16 We certainly will re-review -- although, I know

17 that we did when we wrote this one -- the comments that

18 were made on the previous policy.

19 I do agree with you. We are an independent

20 regulatory agency, but as a member of this

21 administration, we are very aware of, and what we know

22 to be true for Tribal leaders is, there's a lot of

23 consultation going on.

24 And that's a good thing. It's exactly what

25 Tribal leaders wanted, whether they're talking to Noah,

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1 whether they're talking to the BIA, whether they're

2 talking to energy, education.

3 We are a member of this administration and

4 trying to keep consistent and also trying to make your

5 jobs as Tribal leaders a little easier by having

6 something that goes along with the administration's

7 practices on the policy.

8 So we do look forward to your comments from the

9 Tribes that you represent so that it can inform our

10 policy and where we have deviated from DOI's policy,

11 where we have -- in a number of instances actually, if

12 you read their policy, we've already done that. So

13 we're certainly open to the idea of doing more of that.

14 So do we have other comments?

15 MR. PLATA: Hi. John Plata with Hobbs &

16 Strass.

17 I just wanted to point out that the changes for

18 543 and 547 have definite deadlines for submission of

19 comments, whereas the consultation policy doesn't

20 specify a deadline for submission of comments.

21 I understand from Rita that you're treating it

22 the same as a rulemaking, and the deadline will be

23 April 22nd also for these. But that isn't anywhere on

24 your website. If you could post that, it would be very

25 helpful.

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1 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: I apologize for that.

2 We'll correct that.

3 We thought it was on the website in the press

4 release. But we'll double check and make sure that

5 that information is there. And if it's not, I

6 apologize.

7 MS. HOMER: Just with respect to the kiosks.

8 I just think that you might want to consider on the

9 kiosk rule the fact that it really is not the same as

10 the gaming machine drop, and to basically mirror those

11 procedures and require the additional personnel, that's

12 a cost to the operation.

13 Basically, for most cases, we're dealing simply

14 with canceled tickets that have already been accounted

15 for in the system.

16 And you might want to consider -- because

17 kiosks can be different. You can have bill breaker,

18 ATM/TITA systems, and those kinds of things -- to open

19 up for a little flexibility so that we can tailor it to

20 what our particular machines are doing. And I think

21 that this rule does not really allow for that.

22 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Okay. That's good to

23 know.

24 And, again, I know Joe Webster had mentioned

25 that as well. We look forward to some written comments

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1 that could describe to us that particularly situation

2 for you and maybe some suggestions on how we might be

3 able to cast a broader net over different types of

4 kiosks.

5 Any other comments on 543 or 547 or on the

6 draft consultation policy? Again, it's all on our

7 website, and you can pull down drafts of both.

8 The comment period begins --

9 MS. GRIGONOS: April 22nd.

10 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: -- April 22nd for both.

11 So we're about three weeks away. It's been out there.

12 It's a 60-day comment period, I think, as usual.

13 So if you do have any questions, the email and

14 the mail go directly to Sarah. And Sarah goes through

15 all of them. We will see all of them.

16 Dan, did you want to make any comments on

17 either of these?

18 MR. LITTLE: No.

19 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Okay. You are awaiting

20 reappointment commissioner.

21 All of these will come to our personnel here,

22 and we'll go over all of the comments.

23 And as we've demonstrated in the past, we're

24 always open to hear what Tribes have to say, especially

25 from a practical standpoint and having the

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1 responsibility for regulatory oversight for all Tribes

2 across the country, it's helpful to hear different

3 viewpoints and how what we're proposing, whether it's a

4 policy or whether it's a rule, affects each Tribe

5 because we do get this sort of diverse view of how what

6 we're proposing is affecting everybody across the

7 country.

8 So please do provide comments. If you do have

9 any questions, you can call Sarah. You can talk to us.

10 And Allison had mentioned this previously, that

11 when we do put out new rules, we are also developing

12 training and guidance, based on really some of the

13 questions that we get back from Tribes. And that

14 informs us, and it also creates training opportunities,

15 which we've already embarked upon with 543 and 547.

16 So your questions, your phone calls to us, your

17 emails to us all help guide what we do. So please feel

18 free. Don't hold back -- not that you would.

19 And on that note...

20 MS. HOMER: Yes, on that note. I'm so glad you

21 said that.

22 There is a question that's kind of not proposed

23 for this particular consultation, but it's one I would

24 like to throw onto the floor.

25 As we go into full mode implementation of the

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1 Class II MICS, there is a question -- at least there's

2 a question in my mind because most of my clients do not

3 have either a Class II or a Class III facility. We

4 have mixed Class II/Class III.

5 And what we've been trying to figure out -- and

6 we also don't have a segregation. So this half of our

7 casino is Class II, and this is Class III. We have a

8 unified gaming floor.

9 And it is not clear from the regulations what

10 to do in the event of a mixed Class II or Class III

11 facility, which Part 542 or Part 543 applies.

12 It seemed that there are enough differences

13 between 542 and 543 that we really need to figure that

14 out if we're really going to implement the new MICS by

15 the beginning of the fiscal year, because it is tricky

16 when you go into implementation. So guidance with that

17 would be welcome.

18 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: We do get that question.

19 And I don't know if either Sarah or Eric can respond to

20 that.

21 But we are also doing trainings on this, and we

22 started in -- where did we start? I know Oklahoma.

23 We've been to Oklahoma. And there was another

24 location.

25 But we're continuing those to make clear

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1 because we aren't clear how to implement these and

2 answer some of the questions that Tribal regulators and

3 Tribal operators have about this.

4 It probably means we're going to get a lot of

5 questions about TICS. So I'll let Eric respond to your

6 comment.

7 MR. SHEPHARD: I don't know if the TICS provide

8 an opportunity to harmonize some of those standards in

9 the interim. Do they?

10 MS. HOMER: Well, I think they could. I mean,

11 I think that there's a bunch of different options and

12 ways you could go.

13 Like if the NIGC, for example, were satisfied

14 that we could use, in our TICS, Part 543 for our entire

15 gaming operation, you know, we could do that.

16 I mean, there's many areas that it probably

17 makes a lot of sense. Credit is one of those areas,

18 where it's really not that big of a difference, but

19 there are differences. And so we could harmonize it

20 that way.

21 We could pick one or the other, but just kind

22 of stick on Class II things, just stick to the things

23 that are purely Class II, you know, like on the Bingo

24 stuff and the Bingo section.

25 But on Drop and Count and all of those sections

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1 that are generic, we could adopt one or the other or do

2 a blend of both. But what we don't want to do is like

3 pick that path, put it in our TICS, and then find

4 ourselves out of sync with what you guys are thinking.

5 MR. SHEPHARD: I think generally we've been

6 recommending that folks try to do that through their

7 TICS. And there may be other things that they have to

8 bring into alignment there, too, that might be in

9 compact or elsewhere in Tribal regulations.

10 But, hopefully, the TICS would provide an

11 opportunity to harmonize all those competing standards.

12 MS. HOMER: And you wouldn't see that as an

13 alternative standard? That's the other question.

14 I would not want to do a TIC and then have you

15 all see that as an alternate standard, and then we

16 didn't go through the alternate standard procedure.

17 So I'm sorry. I get down into the weeds with

18 this stuff, and I have all of these kinds of questions.

19 MR. SHEPHARD: That's good.

20 But as long as the TICS meet the minimums in

21 543, then they wouldn't be an alternative standard.

22 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: But this is really helpful

23 and welcome comments. We do get them while we were

24 here, when we were at NTGRC, when it was AT9. And

25 those inform and actually help us revise our training

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1 so that we can capture some of those questions as we go

2 out on the road.

3 We also hear them from our regional directors,

4 certainly because they're the ones on the ground that

5 are talking to Tribes on a daily basis.

6 MR. OSBORNE: My name is Marvin Osborne.

7 I'm with the Shoshone Band Gaming Commission,

8 Fort Hall, Idaho.

9 We were looking at the Class II issue, but

10 we're really a Class III facility. So we tried out a

11 couple of the -- well, a few games on the Class II.

12 Then when you look at the regulations, it talks

13 about having another set of financial books and things

14 of that nature. I don't know if there's a minimum

15 amount of machines you can have to trigger off a new

16 set of financial books to create this compliance with

17 NIGC's proposed rigs.

18 And we also look at the Colorado case. I don't

19 know if that's ever been resolved or what. But when

20 you start shoving things down in a proposed ruling and

21 you have this law sticking out there, it kind of make

22 us uncomfortable as to whether or not we're doing the

23 right thing or if there's going to be changes and we

24 don't quite figure out what's needed.

25 So I guess those are a couple items that we're

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1 kind of wondering about.

2 And the fees -- we just made three comments,

3 basically, and we sent them out. The fees on the

4 worksheet. I guess it's not clear. We do an annual

5 payment. We reconcile the orders. But when you get

6 down to the end, we don't know whether we have a credit

7 or a noncredit because it really doesn't say that. We

8 were kind of looking at that from our financial side.

9 And then the background situation, it looks to

10 me like NIGC wants to intervene prior to the Gaming

11 Commission's background review of potential licensees.

12 We noticed that in that last publication, and we're not

13 clear on that, what that's supposed to mean or what it

14 represents. But it just kind of threw a red flag, and

15 we shot a comment about that.

16 MR. SHEPHARD: On the fees issue, we're still

17 working on putting together some additional guidance on

18 that.

19 I think that was a big change, and it's

20 complicated now that we've gone to quarter payments.

21 But we are working on guidance. There's guidance up on

22 the website now. There's some explanation of the fees

23 worksheet. And I think if you want to give us a call,

24 if you have a specific question about your fees, we'd

25 be happy to work through that.

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1 On the background fee, I think the biggest

2 change -- and I don't know that it's really a change

3 when you look at EGRO. But the biggest change in the

4 regs is that we're now clearly requiring two notices to

5 come to the Commission.

6 The first is the notice of results of the

7 background investigation, and that comes separately

8 from the notice that you later send to the Commission

9 saying whether or not you've granted a gaming license

10 to the employee.

11 The notice of results is important for us to

12 get early so that we have an opportunity to provide

13 what we have to do under EGRO, which is to object or

14 not object to the licensure of the employee in a way

15 that doesn't create a replication of license problem

16 for people.

17 MR. OSBORNE: Is that before the applicant

18 goes to the Commission or is it during the 60-day

19 process?

20 MR. SHEPHARD: It's during. It's not designed

21 to add time onto your licensing process. It's designed

22 to happen at the same time.

23 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you for your

24 comments, and I believe that we've received your

25 information.

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1 Yes?

2 MR. CHISSOE: Chairwoman, I wanted to backtrack

3 to the kiosk standards. Looking from my notes, I did

4 have a question.

5 Speaking about the requirement for three agents

6 in accessing kiosks, can surveillance satisfy one of

7 those agent requirements?

8 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: I think that's a good

9 question.

10 MR. SHEPHARD: I believe the proposed rule

11 requires there be three physical agents, but we have,

12 as the Chairwoman has said, we've received a number of

13 comments about that, and you'd like to hear your

14 thoughts on that.

15 MR. CHISSOE: In developing the standard, was

16 there a discussion over this? And could you help us

17 with what the thought process was at arriving at three

18 physical agents?

19 MS. WALTERS: Well, it was to try to achieve

20 consistency with our other areas of Drop and Count

21 and --

22 MR. CHISSOE: The gaming machine section?

23 MS. WALTERS: Yes, in the gaming.

24 However, we have received a number of comments

25 at our Oklahoma consultation -- which the transcript

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1 for that will be up on our website. We haven't

2 received it back yet from the transcriptionist. But it

3 will be on our website very shortly so you can see what

4 some other Tribal leaders and their representatives

5 have said about that.

6 We've received a number of comments that,

7 depending on the size of the operation, the time of day

8 that they do switch those machines out, et cetera, that

9 it may not make sense.

10 MR. CHISSOE: Right.

11 MS. WALTERS: And those are the type of

12 comments that we really value and that we'll use when

13 making a decision about the final rule.

14 Again, since this is just the notice of

15 proposed rulemaking stage, these comments will go into

16 the final decision-making process, which we have not

17 engaged in at all.

18 MR. CHISSOE: Right. Well then, just

19 face-to-face then, I would like to go ahead and voice

20 that for consideration then.

21 I think this is an area that someone brought up

22 earlier. Just for the sake of consistency with other

23 things, like the gaming machine mix, that might not be

24 appropriate in this situation.

25 And you have to remember -- and I've written

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1 regulation before -- whatever we do in regulation on

2 paper has to be implemented and paid for by someone,

3 and I think this is a worthy thing to consider.

4 Thank you.

5 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Are there any other

6 comments on our discussion today for 543 and 547 or

7 consultation policy?

8 If not, please we can get this information to

9 you, or it's also available on our website. We all

10 have contact information here, if you'd like it.

11 At this time, that will end this consultation.

12 (The meeting concluded at 2:00 p.m.)

13 * * * * * *

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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24

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1 STATE OF ARIZONA )

 ) ss.

2 COUNTY OF MARICOPA )

3

4 BE IT KNOWN that the foregoing proceedings

5 was taken before me, CINDY BACHMAN, Certified Reporter

6 No. 50763, in and for the State of Arizona; that the

7 testimony was taken down by the Voice Writing method

8 and thereafter translated into text via speech

9 recognition under my direction; that the foregoing

10 pages are a true and correct transcript of all

11 proceedings had upon the taking of said proceedings,

12 all done to the best of my skill and ability.

13 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am in no way

14 related to any of the parties hereto nor am I in any

15 way interested in the outcome hereof.

16 DATED at Tempe, Arizona, this 10th day of

17 April, 2013.

18

19

20

21

22

23 __________________________

24 Cindy Bachman

25 Certified Reporter No. 50763

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&

& 3:19 4:16,18

26:15

1

100 2:4

10th 39:16

13175 7:1 17:4

1:12 1:6 2:3 3:1

2

20 8:15

2009 7:2 13:12

2011 13:7,8,23 14:6

16:14 18:13

2013 1:5 2:2 8:15,16

12:23 39:17

22 8:16

221 2:4

22nd 26:23 28:9,10

27 1:5 2:2

2:00 38:12

3

3 7:2 12:20

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50763 1:19 39:6,25

542 30:11,13

543 3:4 8:4,6 10:22

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26:18 28:5 29:15

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26:18 28:5 29:15

38:6

6

60 28:12 35:18

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8 12:22

a

ab 2:4

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accepted 10:7,8

accessed 9:24

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accounted 27:14

accounting 9:17

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act 15:4

action 18:5,12 21:18

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actions 15:8 18:25

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activities 10:16

activity 10:18 18:17

add 35:21

additional 8:19 9:6

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administration

15:20 23:18 25:21

26:3

administration's

26:6

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administratively

24:17

adopt 14:25 24:19

32:1

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advisory 13:21,24

14:12 22:9

affairs 2:21 5:17

afternoon 4:2 5:16

8:5

agencies 13:12

14:21

agency 4:9 5:1 14:19

23:15,25 24:7,13

25:20

agent 36:7

agents 9:12 36:5,11

36:18

ago 21:23

agra 14:25

agree 25:19

agreed 14:14

ahead 5:3 6:13,16

8:10 13:4 37:19

alignment 32:8

alison 2:13 5:7 8:3

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allison 29:10

allow 8:25 27:21

alternate 32:15,16

alternative 32:13,21

alternatives 7:5

amount 10:5,7

33:15

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answer 31:2

anytime 10:11

apologies 3:7,13

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27:1,6

appeals 23:1

applicant 35:17

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april 3:12 8:16

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39:17

area 22:18 37:21

areas 11:8 25:12

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arriving 36:17

aside 7:24

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associate 2:11,25

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attorney 2:13 3:18

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authorities 14:24

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awaiting 28:19

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b

bachman 1:18 2:5

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37:2

background 34:9,11

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backtrack 36:2

band 4:11 33:7

based 16:25 17:1,2

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basic 12:17 18:9

basically 16:2 27:10

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charitable 12:19

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cheyenne 5:12

chief 2:17 5:9

chino 4:2,2

chissoe 4:12,12 36:2

36:15,22 37:10,18

christinia 2:17 5:9

cindy 1:18 2:5 7:18

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clarity 10:13,17

class 30:1,3,3,4,4,7,7

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33:9,10,11

clear 7:11 15:15

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clearly 35:4

clients 30:2

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commission 1:1 2:1

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17:13,15 18:3,12,15

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commissioners 7:9

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committee 2:7 13:21

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communicate 21:3

communication

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comply 13:10

component 10:4

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concerning 20:8

concerns 12:2 13:6

concise 14:2

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conducted 17:24

conferences 22:4

conrad 4:14,14

consider 22:14 27:8

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consideration 18:21

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considering 21:17

consistency 12:23

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constitution 17:1

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consultation 1:2 2:2

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credit 31:17 34:6

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daily 33:5

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double 27:4

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draft 3:5 13:4 14:13

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drafted 13:22 23:15

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earlier 17:4 22:21

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either 13:3 28:17

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Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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idaho 33:8

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jack 4:20

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lael 4:21

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machine 27:10

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name 5:21,23 7:25

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ncai 22:4

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nj1625154 1:11

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place 8:8,11

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planning 21:21

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