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 9 NATIONAL INDIAN GAMING COMMISSION CONSULTATION

 10 ON MARCH 23, 2017 AT 3:41 P.M.

 11 IN TULSA, OKLAHOMA

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 24 REPORTED BY: Shannon S. Harwood, CSR
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 1 CHAIRPERSON CHAUDHURI: Mvto. Thank you, 

 2 Mr. Hill. (Speaking in native language.) My name is 

 3 Jonodev Chaudhuri. I'm chairman of NIGC, honored to be 

 4 chairman, but more importantly to me, I'm a member of 

 5 the Muscogee Creek Nation. Muscogee Creek on my 

 6 father -- on my mother's side. On my father's side, I'm 
 7 Bengali from India. I'm honored to be a member of the 

 8 first nations as well as a member of first U.S. born 

 9 family on my father's side. 

 10 So that's my background. I'm going to turn it over 

 11 shortly to my fellow commissioners and Vice Chair Isom-

 12 Clause as well as Commissioner Simermeyer to speak about 

 13 their -- their perspectives and their backgrounds, but I 

 14 want to begin by thanking everyone here in the room 

 15 today for taking the time to participate in today's 
 16 consultation. 

 17 We do have a consultation on Part 547 grandfathered 

 18 Class II gaming systems today, but tomorrow, we also 

 19 have a full slate of consultations scheduled. I 

 20 encourage everyone here to consider attending tomorrow's 

 21 consultation as well. I know all of your time is 

 22 valuable. Many of you have traveled from -- from far 

 23 away communities. So thank you -- thank you very much. 
 24 I'm very excited to -- to hear from the tribal 

 25 leaders and representatives here in this room today. 
 3

 1 The topic that we'll be discussing is important to the 

 2 ongoing health and integrity of the Indian gaming 

 3 industry and we welcome all comments and perspectives. 

 4 Consultation is very important for us here at NIGC. 

 5 We see consultation as a vital part of our regulatory 

 6 work. We have an ongoing commitment not to put pen to 
 7 paper on any major action, any -- really any action of 

 8 significance until we engage in meaningful consultation, 

 9 which means meaningful, respectful consultation. 

 10 And with that, I would like to conclude today's 

 11 consultation. Ms. Homer, Ms. Collier, I'm sorry you 

 12 weren't able to attend, but as I was saying -- and thank 

 13 you for being in on the joke, folks. And hopefully 

 14 that's not taken out of context when someone reads the 

 15 transcript.
 16 But consultation is vitally important to us at 

 17 NIGC. We are of the firm belief that sensible 

 18 regulation entails hearing from and listening --

 19 listening to the regulated community. We at NIGC

 20 recognize our role as part of a larger regulatory 

 21 structure working hand in hand with the primary 

 22 regulators of Indian gaming, tribal regulators, and --

 23 as well as, in various cases, given the nature of 
 24 specific compacts, state regulators at various times to 

 25 support the overall integrity of Indian gaming. 
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 1 We recognize the undeniable impact that Indian 

 2 gaming has had on the larger Indian policy landscape. 

 3 We understand the important services and -- and 

 4 opportunities that gaming has provided, and so we're 

 5 honored to do our part, but we understand that we can 

 6 only perform our role at NIGC through meaningful, 
 7 ongoing consultation with tribes and tribal -- tribal 

 8 representatives. 

 9 So with that, I'm honored to be here today. I'm 

 10 going to turn it over to our vice chair to introduce 

 11 her -- herself and say a little bit more about her 

 12 perspective. And after hearing from the Commission 

 13 itself, we'll get into a few housekeeping matters. 

 14 Mvto.

 15 COMMISSIONER ISOM-CLAUSE: Hello, I'm Kathryn 
 16 Isom-Clause. I'm vice chair of the Commission and I'm 

 17 Taos Pueblo. As you may have noticed here, we're all 

 18 dealing with allergies and have colds up here, so I 

 19 apologize if we all sound a little stuffy, but luckily 

 20 you're far away from us, so we should be okay. Sorry, 

 21 Christinia. 

 22 I would like to thank the Muscogee Creek Nation for 

 23 welcoming us here. We're very happy to be here and to 
 24 coordinate with NTGCR and to have NTGCR's participants 

 25 here as well. 
 5

 1 While we're here today and tomorrow to discuss 

 2 several specific topics, in a larger sense, our work 

 3 here is to honor the government-to-government relation 

 4 between tribal governments and the federal government. 

 5 In addition to the trust responsibilities that all 

 6 federal agencies have, our statutory purpose as an 
 7 agency is to promote tribal development, self 

 8 sufficiency and strong tribal government through 

 9 effective regulation of tribal gaming. To me, this 

 10 includes also ensuring that the policies and regulations 

 11 that we have set forth have a view towards safeguarding 

 12 these benefits for future generations. 

 13 While gaming is not the only source of tribal 

 14 revenue, it is one of the largest for many tribes. 

 15 Successful gaming regulation at all levels is resulting 
 16 from efficient day-to-day functioning and signal 

 17 stability and integrity throughout the industry, and as 

 18 partners in this regulation, tribal voices are essential 

 19 to work. 

 20 Engaging in tribal consultation guarantees that we 

 21 have the benefit of these views. This ongoing dialogue 

 22 is one of the most important tools that we have for 

 23 developing strong policy and regulation at NIGC. 
 24 I'd also like to mention that we're in the process 

 25 of developing our required strategic plan that will 
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 1 begin in 2018, and the consultation topics that we're 

 2 going to discuss today and tomorrow reflect many of the 

 3 Commission's priorities, so the comments that we hear 

 4 throughout this process will be used also to inform our 

 5 strategic plan. There will be other opportunity to 

 6 review that draft plan and to comment specifically on it 
 7 in the future. And we're still waiting to get some of 

 8 the information on the requirements and the timing 

 9 process for that, so we'll keep you informed as we hear 

 10 about it. And, of course, beyond the consultation 

 11 session today and over the coming months, our door is 

 12 always open. 

 13 And, finally, I just wanted to mention that as 

 14 we're beginning our consultation sessions in women's 

 15 history month, the theme for this year is honoring 
 16 trailblazing women in labor and business. So I would 

 17 like to recognize the trailblazing women that we have 

 18 here today and thank you for your work today and 

 19 generally in Indian country that you do every day, so 

 20 thank you and I would like to turn it over to 

 21 Commissioner Simermeyer. 

 22 COMMISSIONER SIMERMEYER: Well, thank you. 

 23 I'm Sequoyah Simermeyer. I'm Coharie from North 
 24 Carolina and I'm the associate commissioner of the 

 25 Commission. And I want to join my colleagues in saying 
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 1 thank you to our tribal representatives and to our staff 

 2 here, the National Indian Gaming Commission, to Mr. Hill 

 3 for your opening and for the time and effort that folks 

 4 have put into preparing for our discussion during this 

 5 consultation series and for the effort that folks are 

 6 putting forward going in the next coming months here. 
 7 I want to echo some of my colleagues our 

 8 appreciation for the effort at the federal level that 

 9 we're responsible for making to collaborate and consult 

 10 on issues such as those that we're going to be 

 11 discussing over the next two days here. Not only does 

 12 it help to support and undergird the integrity of our 

 13 legal relationship at the government-to-government level 

 14 with tribes, it helps us to improve the quality of how 

 15 we meet our statutory purpose as a government agency, is 
 16 a matter of good governance, is important for us as an 

 17 agency to be engaging in. 

 18 So I'll be brief with my comments here, but I'm 

 19 looking forward to both today and tomorrow engaging in 

 20 conversation and hearing perspectives from you about --

 21 about these issues that we're contemplating, so thank 

 22 you for your time and thanks from my colleagues. 

 23 CHAIRMAN JONODEV: Thank you, Commissioner. 
 24 So it's traditional for us to open with introductions. 

 25 We have a lot of our representatives from NIGC here in 
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 1 the room. As I mentioned before, there's a raffle going 

 2 on next door and I anticipate losers of that raffle to 

 3 be joining us as they stream in. The winners will 

 4 probably be having fun with their prizes. 

 5 But I want to introduce some of the -- some of the 

 6 members of our team who will be presenting information 
 7 today. There are many more members of our team in the 

 8 audience. After I introduce who from NIGC is here, I'm 

 9 going to turn it over to audience members, but a few 

 10 housekeeping rules before we jump into it. 

 11 This is a government-to-government consultation, 

 12 and as such, we look forward to hearing comments and 

 13 input from tribal leaders and their representatives. 

 14 And so we recognize there are quite a few 

 15 representatives of tribal nations here in the room and 
 16 we want to hear from all of you, but as we go around and 

 17 make introductions, since this consultation is 

 18 transcribed, I would like all of us to state who -- in 

 19 addition to our names and our own personal communities, 

 20 if we're here representing a given tribal nation, if we 

 21 would please mention on whose behalf you were here, that 

 22 will -- that will help us ensure that the proper respect 

 23 is given to the nation-to-nation relationship. 
 24 At the same time, we also understand that there are 

 25 important perspectives available in the larger Indian 
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 1 gaming landscape. We understand that there may be 

 2 individuals here who have perspectives that are 

 3 important to our discussions, but aren't necessarily 

 4 part of direct tribal leadership. 

 5 Once tribal leadership has every opportunity to

 6 provide comments and ask questions, we welcome those 
 7 comments to be heard. However, with the spirit of 

 8 tribal consultation and in recognition of the 

 9 government-to-government relationship that we're 

 10 honoring here today, if there are any objections from 

 11 tribal leaders or tribal representatives regarding any 

 12 comments submitted from non-tribal representatives, we 

 13 have no issue clearing the room and limiting this 

 14 discussion to a discussion between NIGC and tribal 

 15 leadership and tribal representatives. 
 16 So bottom line, we want to hear from tribal leaders 

 17 and tribal representatives. Others may provide input, 

 18 but if there are any objections, please feel free to 

 19 object and we will proceed accordingly. 

 20 Along the same lines, this is a closed meeting. We 

 21 value open and honest dialogue. This is a closed 

 22 meeting, closed meeting meaning closed to media, and so 

 23 if there are any media representatives in this -- in 
 24 this meeting, at this time, I would ask them to identify 

 25 themselves. Should somebody fail not -- fail to 
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 1 identify themselves, I would -- would like to make the 

 2 point that the intent of this meeting is for it to be a 

 3 closed media meeting to foster, you know, open dialogue. 

 4 Now, with all of that said, we do have a 

 5 transcriptionist here. This consultation will be 

 6 transcribed and part of public record. And the purpose 
 7 of that is while balancing open and free dialogue, we 

 8 want the entire Indian gaming community to benefit from 

 9 the perspectives and comments shared today. 

 10 So at some point, these -- any comments received 

 11 and any dialogue that takes place will be recorded. 

 12 These comments are part of the deliberative process that 

 13 the agency undertakes. We value these comments and we 

 14 do review and consider all comments received as we move 

 15 forward with our decision making process. 
 16 So with that, before formal introductions, I 

 17 always, in keeping with respecting our elders, before 

 18 hearing from our NIGC team as it is right now, I always 

 19 try to recognize NIGC alumni that are in the audience 

 20 today and I see former vice chair, Liz Homer, there and 

 21 I thank her for her past service. Former commissioner, 

 22 Dan Little, is in the back over there. 

 23 If there are any other NIGC alumni that I'm 
 24 missing, please -- oh, and Lael Echohawk. I didn't see. 

 25 She's hiding back there. Former counselor to the chair, 
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 1 and Ms. Echohawk was very involved with the efforts to 

 2 update a lot of the Class II regulations that we'll be 

 3 discussing here today as well. So thank you all NIGC 

 4 alumni for your past service. We appreciate your 

 5 ongoing commitment to -- to Indian gaming. 

 6 So we're going to hear some brief presentations 
 7 from our subject matter expert, who is our IT director, 

 8 Travis Waldo, before opening it up for further dialogue. 

 9 But in addition to the commission, we have members of 

 10 NIGC leadership. Without going through the whole list, 

 11 I'll just introduce everybody who is out -- up here, and 

 12 when we go through the room very briefly, the folks in 

 13 the audience can introduce themselves. 

 14 But we have Travis Waldo, our director of our --

 15 I'm sorry, not IT. Our director of our technology 
 16 division. It's an important distinction, because we 

 17 want our technology division to inform every aspect of 

 18 agency operations and -- including regulations and 

 19 policy making. It's not an IT department. It's the 

 20 technology division. He'll be providing us our subject 

 21 matter presentation. 

 22 But we also have our deputy chief of staff, 

 23 Christinia Thomas, who many of you know who is a former 
 24 tribal regulator as well and has worn pretty much every 

 25 hat at the agency at one time or the other, including 
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 1 chief of staff. 

 2 We also have our general counsel with us, Mike 

 3 Hoenig, who has been with the agency for many, many 

 4 years, and as with me, this is a little homecoming for 

 5 him. He received an LOM from Tulsa and so happy to have 

 6 Mike here. 
 7 We have Tom Cunningham, our director -- our 

 8 regional director from the Oklahoma City regional 

 9 office. I don't believe Tim Harper is here today, but 

 10 Tim Harper is the director -- regional director from the 

 11 Tulsa office, and we appreciate Tom and Tim's teams and 

 12 the work that they do to maintain strong daily 

 13 relationships with their fellow regulators on the 

 14 ground. 

 15 We also have our director of finance, Yvonne Lee, 
 16 here and many others in the room. So that's the NIGC 

 17 ensemble that's up here. 

 18 At this point, I'd like to turn it over to the 

 19 audience so that we can all know who we are and who --

 20 who we're talking among and who we're meeting with so we 

 21 may be of one heart and one mind. And as we go through, 

 22 we always want to be respectful of everyone's time. If 

 23 we could at least hear your name, your community, your 
 24 title, and if you're here representing a given nation, 

 25 please let us know. And if you have a name with an 
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 1 unusual spelling -- I mean, not an unusual -- that's a 

 2 bad way of saying it, but with a long spelling. I have 

 3 a name with a long spelling. I don't think it's 

 4 unusual. Everybody in my family has the same name, but 

 5 if you have a name that may be a challenge to spell, you 

 6 know, because we do have a transcriptionist, please feel 
 7 free to spell it as well, so with that, I'd like to turn 

 8 it over to all of you.

 9 MR. MATTHEWS: Hi, my name is JR Matthews. 

 10 I'm a Quapaw tribal member. I'm also a member of the 

 11 NIGA Class II subcommittee, and you spell it, 

 12 J-A-Y-A-R-E. 

 13 MR. WARD: Steve Ward of general counsel of 

 14 the Quapaw Tribe of Oklahoma.

 15 MR. LANKFORD: (Speaking in native language.) 
 16 I'm Chief Lankford of the Miami Tribe of Oklahoma.

 17 MS. LASH: Robin Lash, general counsel gaming 

 18 commissioner and also the NIGA subcommittee member.

 19 M. COX: Jeremy Cox, NIGC IT auditor out of 

 20 the Tulsa Regional office.

 21 MS. MODRICH-ALVARADO: Mary Modrich-Alvarado 

 22 with NIGC, office of general counsel.

 23 MR. BADGER: Austin Badger, NIGC secretary.
 24 MR. BREWER: Steve Brewer, training manager, 

 25 NIGC.
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 1 MS. OBER: I'm Marci Ober. I'm the compliance 

 2 officer with NIGC here in Tulsa.

 3 MS. BLAKELY: Miranda Blakely, compliance 

 4 officer, Tulsa region, NIGC.

 5 MR. BYRNE: Bill Byrne, spelled B-Y-R-N-E, 

 6 with the Poarch Creek Band of Indians from Alabama. I'm 
 7 a director of audit with the gaming commission.

 8 MR. McBRIDE: Mike McBride, attorney general, 

 9 Seminole Nation of Oklahoma. 

 10 MR. PRATT: Bruce Pratt, president, Pawnee 

 11 Nation.

 12 MS. CAVINESS: Gena Caviness, compliance 

 13 manager for Cherokee Nation Gaming Commission.

 14 MR. NORMAN: Kyle Norman, project manager, 

 15 Choctaw Nation.
 16 MS. PENZ: Paula Penz, gaming commissioner, 

 17 Choctaw Nation.

 18 MS. NELSON: Jody Nelson, audit manager at the 

 19 Choctaw Nation Gaming Commission.

 20 MR. TOMLINSON: Tyler Tomlinson, technical 

 21 compliance manager for Choctaw Nation Gaming Commission.

 22 MR. TORIVIO: Mike Torivio, Pueblo Gaming 

 23 Commission.
 24 MS. TURNER: Martha Turner with Commanche 

 25 Nation Entertainment, director of compliance.
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 1 MS. BUTLER WOLFE: Good afternoon. My name is 

 2 Edwina Butler Wolfe, governor of the Absentee Shawnee 

 3 Tribe.

 4 MS. TANYAN: Lesley Tanyan, executive director 

 5 in Absentee Shawnee and Class II NIGA subcommittee 

 6 member.
 7 MR. SWITCH: Kelly Switch of the Absentee 

 8 Shawnee Tribe Gaming Commission as deputy commissioner.

 9 MS. KAISER-COLLIER: Barbara Kaiser Collier, 

 10 executive director of the Quapaw Tribal Gaming Agency of 

 11 the Quapaw Tribe.

 12 MS. HOMER: Elizabeth Lohah Homer. I'm in the 

 13 accompaniment today of the Quapaw Tribal Gaming 

 14 Regulatory Agency and I am an attorney in private 

 15 practice in Washington. I'm also here to monitor on 
 16 behalf of the Seneca-Cayuga Nation of Oklahoma and the

 17 Prairie Band Potawatomi Tribe.

 18 MS. DUPUIS: (Speaking in native language.) 

 19 Francine Dupuisc, D-U-P-U-I-S, CNSKT board member and a 

 20 subcommittee member.

 21 MS. BLALOCK: Jeananne Blalock, compliance 

 22 supervisor with Quapaw Tribal Gaming Agency.

 23 MR. OROSCO: Philip Orosco, senior director of 
 24 regulatory compliance for the Ottawa Gaming Commission.

 25 MS. DAN: Billie Dan, director of compliance 
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 1 for Seminole Nation Gaming Enterprise.

 2 MR. HALE: Terry Hale, compliance manager for 

 3 the Seminole Nation Gaming Agency.

 4 MR. LAURENZANA: Rudy Laurenzana, chief gaming 

 5 regulator with the Seminole Nation Gaming Agency.

 6 MR. LARNEY: Jeremy Larney, gaming 
 7 commissioner, Seminole Nation of Oklahoma. 

 8 MR. MORGAN: Good afternoon. Matthew Morgan, 

 9 director of gaming affairs, Chickasaw Nation Department 

 10 of Commerce. Also serve as NIGA's chairman of the Class 

 11 II subcommittee.

 12 MR. LITTLE: Dan Little, I'm the vice 

 13 president of government relations for Aristocrat 

 14 Technologies and BGT, and I'm also an advisor to the 

 15 NIGA Class II working group.
 16 MS. ECHOHAWK: Good afternoon. Lael Echohawk. 

 17 I'm a member of the Pawnee Nation. Good to see you, 

 18 President. I'm here -- I'm here on behalf of Hobbs 

 19 Straus and a number of our clients, including Witchita 

 20 and Iowa Tribes and a number of other tribes that I 

 21 don't know because I wasn't supposed to be here today, 

 22 but filling in.

 23 MS. MATHEWS: Tonya Mathews, executive 
 24 director of Peoria Tribal Gaming Commission.

 25 MR. HITCHCOCK: Jeff Hitchcock, Wyandotte 
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 1 Nation Gaming Commission.

 2 MR. BURRIS: Tracy Burris, gaming commissioner 

 3 of Viejas Band of Kumeyaay Indians.

 4 MR. ADAMS: Charlie Adams, Muscogee Creek 

 5 Nation. I'm the compliance surveillance manager.

 6 MR. YORK: I don't want Jamie going before me.
 7 MR. HUMMINGBIRD: Usually they save the best 

 8 for last. Jamie Hummingbird, director of gaming 

 9 commission for Cherokee Nation.

 10 MR. YORK: Buddy York, gaming commissioner, 

 11 Muscogee Creek Nation.

 12 MR. BURRIGHT: Jered Burright, IT manager for 

 13 Muscogee Creek Nation.

 14 MS. GIBSON: Jackie Gibson, executive 

 15 director, Muscogee Creek Nation. 
 16 MR. ALLEN: Zach Allen, software and internal 

 17 audit manager for Muscogee Creek Nation.

 18 MS. MORAGO: Sheila Morago, executive 

 19 director, Oklahoma Indian Gaming Association.

 20 MR. KERR: David Kerr with Sycuan Band of 

 21 Kumeyaay Nation, regulation supervisor.

 22 MS. PIERCE: Kim Pierce, internal auditor Sac 

 23 and Fox Nation Gaming Commission.
 24 MR. SMITH: Doug Smith, compliance manager for 

 25 the Sac and Fox Gaming Commission. 
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 1 MR. MOODY: Brian Moody, NIGC Tulsa office. 

 2 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: Okay. And we'll allow 

 3 others who come in and are unsuccessful in the raffle 

 4 next door to introduce themselves as time goes on, but 

 5 just want to reiterate our appreciation to our nation --

 6 I mean, my nation, Muscogee Creek Nation for allowing us 
 7 to have this consultation here in Muscogee Creek 

 8 territory. And I also want to thank NTGCR, Chairman 

 9 Hummingbird and NTGCR's board for allowing us to 

 10 schedule this consultation in conjunction with NTGCR. I 

 11 also want to thank NIGA's subcommittee. I appreciate 

 12 the hard work everyone does on that committee. 

 13 So before hearing from Mr. Waldo regarding some 

 14 general background, much of which you are all familiar 

 15 with -- and Chairman Stephens, I just thanked NIGA's 
 16 subcommittee and the important work that NIGA does and 

 17 honored to have you here as well. And so I don't know 

 18 if you want to introduce yourself. We all introduced 

 19 ourselves and the consultation is now concluded.

 20 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. Thank you, sir. Do 

 21 you -- sure you want me to introduce myself? So, you 

 22 know, I -- I apologize. Set this bag down and my 

 23 coffee. And I literally have been going, but I know I'm 
 24 not the only one, but I did -- I never get to sleep on 

 25 the plane. I actually slept on the plane, so that's how 
 19

 1 I recharge my battery. 

 2 So I just -- as far as the -- the only thing I 

 3 really would like to do is, again, invite everybody to 

 4 the NIGA trade show in beautiful San Diego on the 10th 

 5 through the 14th. Did I say that enough today? I don't 

 6 know, but for those of you who aren't registered, 
 7 there's plenty of room for you to come to the trade 

 8 shows. 

 9 I want to just on the -- on the subcommittee, I 

 10 think we're working hard. Matt Morgan is here. He has 

 11 been the leader in that -- in that initiative and the 

 12 committee is -- what we put together is it's -- several 

 13 of our principals are here, but you know, it's really 

 14 about working together, but we work for the tribes and 

 15 we really need to get this done. We really worked hard 
 16 on it. 

 17 The only part that I played as -- in appointing 

 18 that committee and relying on Matt and the rest of his 

 19 team's leadership is that we can get a substantive 

 20 product done and so that we can cross the Ts and dot the 

 21 Is and make sure we don't -- in the past, you know, we 

 22 have -- may have gotten into -- I'll just speak for 

 23 myself. When dealing with NIGC, I might get a little 
 24 bit more energetic than the average guy, you know, but 

 25 Jonodev is too much of a gentleman. I can't even get 
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 1 mad at him, you know.

 2 So but there's not really much to fight about 

 3 because we're fighting for the same thing. And so what 

 4 I've done is try to stay close to that so we stay 

 5 focused on what we're trying to do, which is preserve 

 6 the tribe's ability through economic development, and 
 7 this is key to us. So, again, I want to commend Matt 

 8 Morgan and his leadership and we'll continue to bring a 

 9 strong, hard working proactive message regarding the 

 10 grandfather and any other issues related to Class II. 

 11 This committee was not appointed by me. It was 

 12 appointed by our board, board of directors for the 

 13 National Indian Gaming Association and our regional 

 14 representative, Commissioner Morgan, is charged with 

 15 that and leading that and there's several other people 
 16 that are involved. But we're going to work hard and 

 17 we're going to be energetic at times, but we're going to 

 18 be respectful and we're pretty excited about the product 

 19 we've done, because we need to do this for the 

 20 betterment of these tribes that rely so much on this 

 21 Class II energy, not just relates to the grandfather, 

 22 but overall industry. We have to protect our rights 

 23 under this -- under Class II. 
 24 So that's -- that's pretty much -- and my name is 

 25 Ernie Stephens and I'm an Oneida. I'm chairman and 
 21

 1 chief spokesperson for the National Indian Gaming 

 2 Association, but most importantly, as soon as I'm done 

 3 here, I'm driving to -- what did she say -- it's four 

 4 ours north to Lawrence, Kansas and the 15th grandchild 

 5 was born yesterday. I heard it in the mass media. 

 6 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: Thank you. 
 7 Congratulations, Chairman, and thank you so much for all 

 8 the important work you do, and more important, NIGA 

 9 does. I saw Ms. Debbie Thundercloud there so -- back 

 10 there as well. Thank you for the work you do and the 

 11 work you've done in the past as chair of your nation. 

 12 So with that, let me get to some final housekeeping 

 13 matters. This consultation is scheduled to go until 

 14 5:30. As I often say, there is no crime in finishing 

 15 early. This consultation may finish early if everybody 
 16 -- you know, if tribal leadership has had, you know, 

 17 every opportunity to be heard and there are no 

 18 additional comments or -- or concerns. 

 19 I do want to -- if Chairman Stephens can give a 

 20 plug out -- a plug for the NIGA conference, I do want to 

 21 encourage everyone here to encourage their peers and 

 22 consider attending themselves -- well, I want to 

 23 encourage everyone to attend our upcoming consultations. 
 24 The next one scheduled is for April 5th at Talking Stick 

 25 Resort in Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian Community. 
 22

 1 Next one after that is April 12th to be held in 

 2 conjunction with NIGA. Then we have another one April 

 3 13th to be held in conjunction with NIGA. Another one 

 4 after that, April 20th in Billings, Montana, and the 

 5 next one is May 4th to be held in conjunction with the 

 6 Southern Gaming Summit in Biloxi, Mississippi. 
 7 And then, finally, we have an unscheduled 

 8 consultation to be held the week of May 22nd at a date 

 9 to be determined dependent on coordination with ATNI. 

 10 Now, there's the -- the associated tribes --

 11 affiliated -- Affiliated Tribes of Northwest Indians 

 12 Conference, so we'll be scheduling that shortly. 

 13 So with that, I'm going to turn it over. Again, 

 14 many thanks to Muscogee Creek Nation and to NTGCR. 

 15 We're going to hear from Mr. Travis Waldo to provide 
 16 some additional background information. 

 17 COMMISSIONER WALDO: Hello, everyone. Thank 

 18 you again for being here this afternoon. Again, my name 

 19 is Travis Waldo. I'm the director of technology for the 

 20 National Indian Gaming Commission. 

 21 The NIGC has an ongoing commitment with tribal 

 22 leadership and tribal regulatory partners to balance the 

 23 reasonable regulation of Indian gaming with the need to 
 24 avoid unnecessary or artificial roadblocks to economic 

 25 development. The sunset provision of the grandfathered 
 23

 1 Class II gaming system is an opportunity for all of us 

 2 to understand whether grandfathered systems pose 

 3 potential risks to be -- excuse me, to the integrity of 

 4 Indian gaming and to consult on the appropriate 

 5 solutions if needed. 

 6 Development of Class II minimum technical standards 
 7 began in 2004 as a collaborative effort between the 

 8 National Indian Gaming Commission, the tribes and 

 9 manufacturers to mitigate certain risks believed to 

 10 exist in the ever-advancing Class II gaming system 

 11 technology. 

 12 The NIGC initially implemented the technical 

 13 standards in 2008. The technical standards provide that 

 14 before Class II gaming systems may be placed on the 

 15 floor and offered to the public for play, it must be 
 16 submitted to an independent gaming laboratory which 

 17 would test the system against the technical standards. 

 18 It was recognized by tribes, the industry, and NIGC 

 19 that the implementation of the technical standards would 

 20 cover financial costs to the gaming industry and to 

 21 tribes. Of particular concern, however, was the 

 22 potential financial burden on bringing gaming systems 

 23 that had already been manufactured and/or put into play 
 24 and compliant with applicable law in the absence of the 

 25 technical standards into compliance with the new 2008 
 24

 1 rule. Thus, to reduce that cost, the NIGC provided that 

 2 gaming systems manufactured prior to issuance of the 

 3 standards in 2008 could be certified to an alternate 

 4 minimum standard as grandfathered systems. 

 5 To be offered for play as a grandfathered system, 

 6 the tribal gaming regulatory authority was required to 
 7 submit the pre-2008 system to a testing laboratory for 

 8 certification within a 120-day window after the 2008 

 9 technical standards were issued. All systems 

 10 manufactured after 2008 would be required to meet full 

 11 technical standards. 

 12 The grandfathered systems were permitted to be 

 13 continued -- excuse me, permitted to continue being 

 14 offered for play during a five-year grandfathered 

 15 period. By 2013, all grandfathered systems would be 
 16 required to be removed from operation. It was thought 

 17 at that time that the natural mark and forces would 

 18 cause new fully compliant systems to replace old 

 19 grandfathered systems and that the looming sunset of the 

 20 grandfathered period would otherwise incentivize the 

 21 industry's transition to fully compliant systems.

 22 The technical standards further provided that 

 23 grandfathered systems will be modified to become fully 
 24 compliant with those standards, and thus, would be 

 25 removed from grandfathered status and continue to 
 25

 1 operate after 2013. By 2012, however, it was clear that 

 2 the industry would be unable to bring all Class II 

 3 gaming systems into full compliance with the technical 

 4 standards. 

 5 Through consultation with its tribal partners, the 

 6 NIGC extended the grandfathered period an additional 
 7 five years to November 10th, 2018. In July of 2016, 

 8 recognizing that the NIGC and tribal regulators would 

 9 again have to deal with this issue, in keeping with our 

 10 efforts to ensure gaming integrity while avoiding 

 11 unnecessary roadblocks to tribal economic development, 

 12 the NIGC proactively reached out to tribes and vendors 

 13 to gather input -- excuse me, gathering input 

 14 information. Also, the NIGC staff (office of general 

 15 counsel and technology division) have been working with 
 16 the NIGA subcommittee on the grandfathering issue as 

 17 well. 

 18 If we look at the technical standards, you can see 

 19 that only 12 of the total 56 testable standards for 547 

 20 are required to be tested in order for a game to be a 

 21 grandfathered system. Additionally, the technical 

 22 standards provide that modifications to grandfathered 

 23 systems, such as replacing the component, are not 
 24 required to meet fully compliant system standards so 

 25 long as the modification maintains or advances the 
 26

 1 grandfathered system's overall compliance. 

 2 We want to focus our risk analysis on the 44 

 3 technical standards that are not included as part of the 

 4 grandfathered system. A grandfathered system that was 

 5 manufactured before 2008 that remains in play today has 

 6 had many of its original components replaced with 
 7 components manufactured after 2008. These new 

 8 components were likely designed to meet fully compliant 

 9 system standards, but are not required to be tested as 

 10 such because they were installed in the grandfathered 

 11 systems. 

 12 Of the 44 technical standards that are not included 

 13 as part of the grandfathered system, what is still 

 14 outstanding and what risks, if any, remains with those 

 15 outstanding areas? 
 16 The NIGC is interested in consulting on this topic, 

 17 including but not limited to, obtaining, one, any 

 18 information related to the steps tribes have taken to 

 19 comply with grandfathering provisions and any 

 20 difficulties in implementing those provisions; two, what 

 21 risks, if any, the grandfathered games may pose to the 

 22 gaming operation or the gaming public; and three, how 

 23 those risks may be mitigated by means other than Part 
 24 547. Thank you.

 25 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: Thank you, Travis. So at 
 27

 1 this point, we'll turn it over for comments, questions, 

 2 statements. However, we recognize that some individuals 

 3 may have planes to catch. If you are on a short 

 4 timeline, we'd like to move you up to the front of the 

 5 line. Is anybody in a position where they need to get a 

 6 statement on the record immediately? 
 7 (No response from the participants.)

 8 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: Okay. With that, we'll 

 9 just go in order of, I guess, hands, but I don't want 

 10 anybody to feel that everything that needs to be said 

 11 needs to be said today. The comment period goes through 

 12 the end of June and so we're going to be receiving 

 13 written and verbal comments through our consultation --

 14 our actual consultations, but also in the mail, via 

 15 email. 
 16 If there are ideas or comments that anybody thinks 

 17 of after today's consultation, I want to encourage 

 18 everybody to submit those comments to us in writing, by 

 19 email, but that said, I'll turn it over to Mr. Tom 

 20 Cunningham, who's going to work with anybody who has a 

 21 question or comment on the record. 

 22 We -- as I said before, one of our fundamental 

 23 principles is adherence to regulatory responsibilities, 
 24 while not stymieing the entrepreneurial spirit of 

 25 tribes. So we want to hear about the efforts and 
 28

 1 impact -- the efforts tribes have made to handle the 

 2 upcoming deadlines, but we also want to hear about the 

 3 risks involved, the presence or the lack of risks 

 4 involved given various options moving forward. 

 5 So with that, Mr. Cunningham, I'll leave it to you 

 6 to read the room. Thanks.
 7 MR. LANKFORD: Chief Lankford, Miami Tribe. 

 8 Mr. Chairman, I have a statement, if I may, would like 

 9 to read this into the minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chaudhuri 

 10 and the commissioners for scheduling this important 

 11 consultation in Tulsa to meet with the tribal leaders, 

 12 gaming regulators, tribal representatives concerning the 

 13 Class II grandfathered gaming systems. Thank you for 

 14 your hard work since I had last reached out to you last 

 15 summer to request this type of a consultation for these 
 16 gaming systems. 

 17 This topic is an important -- is important to 

 18 Oklahoma tribes because these grandfathered -- these 

 19 grandfathered Class II gaming systems are among the most 

 20 lucrative for many tribes, including the Miami, and it's 

 21 what our patrons want to play. 

 22 As you're aware, Part 547 regulation allows certain 

 23 Class II games that were manufactured before November 
 24 10, 2008, to continue in use until November 10, 2018, as 

 25 grandfathered gaming systems if they had been certified 
 29

 1 and meeting certain core requirements. 

 2 The Miami Tribe participating in the NIGC tribal 

 3 advisory committee in 2011 did not support the premise 

 4 that grandfathered systems create a risk to the industry 

 5 and time has proven this to be true. There simply 

 6 hasn't -- has been no incidents in the past 19 years to 
 7 substantiate concerns of risk or safety with these 

 8 gaming systems. 

 9 In past consultations on this topic, tribes have 

 10 asked NIGC to explain why the sunset provision is in 

 11 place, and if it can't, to rescind it -- to rescind this 

 12 rule. The NIGC, on the other hand, has asked the tribes 

 13 to explain why the sunset provision should change or be 

 14 stricken. 

 15 My reason -- my reason to request that the 
 16 grandfather provision be further extended or eliminated 

 17 altogether are as follows: Grandfathered gaming 

 18 systems, include games that were the subject of hard 

 19 fought victories in Indian country and served as the 

 20 foundation for the entire Class II industry. 

 21 Grandfathered gaming systems represent an investment by 

 22 tribes and manufacturers and tens of millions of 

 23 dollars. 
 24 In some remote locations, grandfathered systems are 

 25 the only ones that are economically viable since fully 
 30

 1 compliant systems tend to be much more expensive. There 

 2 are no documented cases where grandfathered systems pose 

 3 any greater risk to a patron or tribal gaming operation 

 4 than fully compliant systems, and our gaming 

 5 commissioners who are the primary regulators in Indian 

 6 country, are on the floor every day supervising and 
 7 reviewing these games. 

 8 Many -- excuse me. Many grandfathered game systems 

 9 have a loyal customer base and are preferred over newer 

 10 games that lack familiar look and feel that patrons 

 11 expect. Again, these are the games our patrons want to 

 12 play. There is great concern that vendors will not be 

 13 able to upgrade systems at every tribal casino by 

 14 November 2018, and the smaller tribes, like my tribe 

 15 which rely on these gaming revenues will be hardest hit 
 16 when these games must be shut off and replaced. 

 17 In addition, the same economic reasons that justify 

 18 NIGC's extension of the sunset provision in 2012 are 

 19 present today. The economic reasons were highlighted in 

 20 the Oklahoma Tribal Gaming Regulators August 2012 letter 

 21 to NIGC. In this letter, the OTGRA detailed the results 

 22 of proprietary information from 20-member tribes to 

 23 demonstrate the financial hardship these tribes would 
 24 suffer if grandfathered systems were removed. Total 

 25 projected losses and down time for removal of games 
 31

 1 replaced with these grandfathered games and/or loss of 

 2 tribally-owned grandfathered boxes were projected to be 

 3 over $65 million. I believe the negative financial 

 4 impact would be the same today. 

 5 In addition, without these popular Class II gaming 

 6 systems in play, Oklahoma tribes would lose leverage in 
 7 compact negotiations with the state. I understand that 

 8 the commission did not draft Part 547 with the sunset 

 9 provision citing the arbitrary date that triggered the 

 10 end of play of safe and legal Class II gaming systems. 

 11 It is my hope, however, that the Commission will do 

 12 the right thing and strike the sunset clause. Every 

 13 Class II game on the floor of the Miami Tribe Casino is 

 14 a vital, legal, Class II grandfathered system. These 

 15 games bring valuable revenue to my tribe for my people. 
 16 It is my request that the sunset clause be stricken from 

 17 Part 547 so that lucrative games may remain in play 

 18 indefinitely.

 19 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: And thank you for that 

 20 statement, Chief. So we'll respond or engage as much as 

 21 possible. We value the two-way street that 

 22 consultations have been for NIGC. We've run ours 

 23 slightly differently than maybe other entities, but you 
 24 know, if -- if there's an opportunity to do that, 

 25 we'll -- we'll respond, but otherwise, we appreciate 
 32

 1 having these statements entered in the record and we 

 2 will consider all of these as we move forward. Thank 

 3 you. 

 4 Well, I just saw one person back there take his 

 5 glasses off getting ready to speak, so I know -- Dan's 

 6 not looking over here, but any additional comments? 
 7 While we're sorting through whether or not we're going 

 8 to comment, we do appreciate the materials NTGCR was 

 9 discussing over the last couple of days regarding some 

 10 of their analyses that they put forward. Thank you for 

 11 that.

 12 MS. LASH: Good afternoon. Thank you, 

 13 Chairman, and commissioners for setting up this 

 14 consultation today. It is very important to keep the 

 15 lines of communication open. Along with my fellow 
 16 tribal leaders and regulators, this topic is very 

 17 important to the Absentee Shawnee Tribe. 

 18 During my time with the tribe and past history with 

 19 our Class II gaming systems, we have not had any 

 20 problems and our patrons have enjoyed the games. Today, 

 21 I ask you to strike the sunset clause from Part 547 so 

 22 that these lucrative games can stay in play and doesn't 

 23 cause undue financial hardships on tribes. 
 24 And our comments -- this is very short -- that I 

 25 had sent, but I am going to be sending longer comments 
 33

 1 to you at the end of June, so I wanted to express our 

 2 own concern with how it will affect the Absentee Shawnee 

 3 Tribe as we, too, are a small tribe here in Oklahoma 

 4 with the 4,000 -- little over 4,000 tribal members and 

 5 with two casinos that we have. And we are -- you know, 

 6 we're just a small tribe and many other tribes in our 
 7 area that have other bigger casinos that people like to 

 8 go to, but we do -- we are very concerned with this act 

 9 here, so thank you.

 10 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: And thank you so much for 

 11 that and the position is heard loud and clear. Thank 

 12 you. 

 13 MR. MORGAN: Chairman, my name is Matthew 

 14 Morgan from the Chickasaw Nation. Bring you greetings 

 15 from Governor and Lieutenant Governor Keel and my boss, 
 16 Secretary Lance. Today, though, I'm here on behalf of 

 17 NIGA. I said -- represent the Eastern Oklahoma Region 

 18 on the board of directors at NIGA and also chair its 

 19 Class II subcommittee. 

 20 I know we've talked over the several months with 

 21 your staff on an ongoing dialogue some of the 

 22 undertakings of the committee and what it's up to. I 

 23 just want to kinda update the group and also have that 
 24 in the record on some of the efforts that we've put 

 25 forth, including, you know, a lot of our in-person and 
 34

 1 in teleconference and a lot of our committee members are 

 2 here today and I want to appreciate and thank them for 

 3 attending and all of their info. 

 4 Just to highlight two points. One, you know, we've 

 5 engaged the firm of Claus Robinson to conduct a survey. 

 6 One of the things in discussion with a lot of our 
 7 stakeholders in the industry is there's a lot of 

 8 questions on exactly what is out there in terms of 

 9 grandfathering systems and grandfather units, what does 

 10 that look like and what kind of impact does that have on 

 11 Indian country. 

 12 We want to make sure we have a true estimate of 

 13 numbers, and through NIGA, you know, in its efforts and 

 14 we've reached out to tribal leadership to try to engage 

 15 them on that survey to make sure that we're able to 
 16 bring that forth to you. I don't have anything today 

 17 for you, but we are shooting for -- as NIGA's --

 18 Chairman Stephens was talking about, NIGA's annual 

 19 meeting, we'll have preliminary results there to be able 

 20 to deliver to you at that consultation on what that 

 21 looks like and the impact throughout the country. 

 22 That's the first part of our efforts that we're doing on 

 23 this -- this particular subject. 
 24 Secondarily, Committee Member Hummingbird, in his 

 25 position as chair of NTGCR, has worked to come up and 
 35

 1 address one of your points that you've talked about a 

 2 lot, risk. What is this risk that -- what we look like 

 3 here? And I know that he's had some preliminary 

 4 dialogues, but Jamie, if you would -- if you wouldn't 

 5 mind, I'd like for him to kinda go a little bit further 

 6 in depth to what that looks like from at least our 
 7 position, and then, you know, turn it over and let your 

 8 staff go through that as well to make sure that they 

 9 agree, and if not, we can have some further dialogue 

 10 down the road. 

 11 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: Please. Thank you.

 12 MR. HUMMINGBIRD: Thank you, Chairman 

 13 Chaudhuri, not only for allowing me to speak today, but 

 14 for being patient with our conference that seem to have 

 15 inadvertently overlapped with the consultation. 
 16 Hopefully we are able to provide some additional 

 17 attendees for your conference. We were hoping to get a 

 18 lot of tribes in here to learn about -- more about 

 19 what's going on particularly with the grandfathering 

 20 Clause. 

 21 As you mentioned earlier, we have included in this 

 22 year's conference a special track regarding Class II. 

 23 One of the key components of that discussion was the 
 24 grandfathering clause in the sunset provision. I have 

 25 also been serving on the Class II subcommittee with 
 36

 1 Chairman Morgan and others, and one of the things that 

 2 we had talked about is taking a look at the Section 547 

 3 as a whole. How does -- how does 547, in and of itself, 

 4 impact and play out within the gaming operations, 

 5 particularly the regulatory field of it? And more 

 6 specifically, we looked at the areas of risk that are 
 7 associated with these items contained in Section 547. 

 8 When we looked at it, we found that there were 56 

 9 testable standards that can be gleaned from Section 547. 

 10 And when we say testable, that means that an independent 

 11 testing lab such as GLI, BMM, Eclipse, any of the 

 12 testing labs out there can create a specific test from 

 13 the language that's contained within those standards. 

 14 There is language in there that will allow the labs to 

 15 design testing protocols and to measure the performance 
 16 of those items within the confines of Section 547. 

 17 The test labs can perform the tests on the 

 18 manufacturer's products to ensure that it meets the 

 19 minimum technical standards for grandfathering. And 

 20 within those 56 standards, those standards can be 

 21 condensed into three different levels of severity. If 

 22 you are familiar with just general testing protocols, 

 23 you have high, medium and low. And these labels are 
 24 based on the compliance risk to the operation and the 

 25 regulation of the Class II systems by the Local Tribal 
 37

 1 Gaming Regulatory Authority. 

 2 The high level -- the high risk level, which are 

 3 those that pose significant compliance risk to the 

 4 operation and the regulation to Class II gaming systems, 

 5 those risks could provide the ability to cheat or 

 6 mislead a patron and possibly affect the following 
 7 items, which are integrity of the gaming software and/or 

 8 database information and/or manipulation of the game 

 9 outcome. 

 10 Medium risk items pose minimal compliance to the 

 11 operation and regulation to Class II, because those are 

 12 simply more associated with defects found during testing 

 13 that do not affect the integrity of the game or the MICS 

 14 requirements that must be tested or verified in the 

 15 field that can't be tested or reproduced at the testing 
 16 lab. 

 17 Low risk items pose little or no compliance risk to 

 18 the operation and the regulation of the Class II systems 

 19 and these defects are usually generally quality in 

 20 nature that pose no risk to the integrity of the game. 

 21 In looking down -- breaking down the standards of 

 22 those 56 testable standards that are mentioned, we broke 

 23 these down into different categories by section within 
 24 547. And I apologize, I do not have the handouts for 

 25 you. Myself, hopefully they were delivered a little bit 
 38

 1 earlier. You got them? Okay. Very good. 

 2 So of those 56, according to the printout that we 

 3 provided to you, you can see how those items break down. 

 4 I won't go through each one of them just for the sake of 

 5 brevity, but each one of these items contained in the 

 6 Section 547 have the standards that are measurable by 
 7 the -- excuse me, independent testing labs. 

 8 When you look at -- when we looked at the risks 

 9 associated with each of those standards, we determined 

 10 that there were -- 57 percent of those items fall into a 

 11 high risk category, 40 percent into a medium risk, and 

 12 the final three percent into a low risk category. 

 13 Now, the Class II grandfathering testing covers 12 

 14 of the 28 items that are -- that were identified in 

 15 your -- in your handout material and those are the high 
 16 risk standards contained within 547, but when you add in 

 17 the ancillary items within 547 that are affected 

 18 specifically by 547.5, you come to 26 of the 28 items 

 19 are covered by the grandfathered provision. And that is 

 20 simply to say, there is a portion of 547 that references 

 21 back to or is contingent upon another section that is 

 22 not within 547.5 where you find most of the breakdown in 

 23 the standards. 
 24 The testable sections that we looked at, the 

 25 initial ones, 12 of those 28, around 50 percent of those 
 39

 1 are high risk. There are four in accounting, two in 

 2 critical events, one in money handling and currency, 

 3 credit handling. The remaining items are being 

 4 classified or have been classified as either low or 

 5 medium-risk categories. 

 6 You test -- excuse me. You add in the additional 
 7 testable sections that I mentioned and now you've 

 8 reached 26 of those 28, which is 93 percent of those 

 9 high risk standards are covered by the provisions within 

 10 the grandfathering section. 

 11 It is important to note and important to understand 

 12 that these are just the testable portions of the games, 

 13 things that are taken out of 547. These are not the end 

 14 all of the protections that are afforded to our Class II 

 15 systems. There are other items and other areas in which 
 16 Class II systems are protected, such as our internal 

 17 control standards. 

 18 A good example I believe would be the controls that 

 19 we have around machine access, that every tribe has some 

 20 sort of protocol by which a person, an authorized person 

 21 gains entry to a machine, whether it's for work on the 

 22 machine itself to troubleshoot an issue, there are 

 23 protocols in which tribes employ to make sure that that 
 24 activity does not interfere or in any way impact the 

 25 game play or the game integrity. That includes the 
 40

 1 financial integrity. 

 2 In addition to our internal controls, for my tribe 

 3 and a number of tribes, there is a significant level of 

 4 testing that is done prior to the release and 

 5 installation of any of the games -- gaming systems 

 6 within our properties. There is a stringent checklist 
 7 and examinations that must be codified and verified 

 8 before those machines are allowed for play. Thereafter, 

 9 periodic audits are conducted. Some are done on a 

 10 semiannual basis. Others are done on an annual basis. 

 11 In addition to that, any activity, anything 

 12 happening with the machines is captured under video 

 13 surveillance as well as online accounting and monitoring 

 14 systems. If there are any unscheduled or unsanctioned 

 15 accesses to those machines, alerts go through to a 
 16 surveillance system most usually to alert individuals 

 17 there that access has been gained. 

 18 If there are any other concerns, other personnel 

 19 are dispatched from operations and/or the gaming 

 20 commission to identify exactly what is going on with the 

 21 machines. 

 22 I say those things to underscore the fact that the 

 23 grandfathering provisions I believe have -- have met 
 24 their intent and -- which was to really safeguard the 

 25 integrity of the game, its operation and its financial 
 41

 1 integrity. And as was mentioned earlier, no instance 

 2 has been uncovered where any of the games have been 

 3 compromised or any of the integrity has come into 

 4 question for these games. 

 5 So with that, I will entertain any questions from 

 6 the NIGC or anyone. 
 7 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: Very much appreciate this 

 8 analysis, Chairman. You know, as we've all discussed in 

 9 this community in past forum, past venues, the risk part 

 10 of the discussion is important to us because, as 

 11 regulators, we have the responsibility to ensure the 

 12 integrity of the industry. 

 13 At the same time, we want to avoid unnecessary 

 14 roadblocks, so we -- unnecessary roadblocks to tribal 

 15 economic development, and so we appreciate the balancing 
 16 of the economic impact with -- with the risk analysis. 

 17 This risk analysis is very helpful and I believe our 

 18 ongoing discussions and dialogue have focused on risk 

 19 aspect and I appreciate the work that has been pursued 

 20 by NTGCR, the NIGA subcommittee, and all the regulators 

 21 and tribal leaders who participate in those efforts. 

 22 Many, many thanks. 

 23 So the only question I have is -- let's see. Is 
 24 this -- this is the overview. Is there going to be a 

 25 report that's ultimately produced from all this? 
 42

 1 MR. HUMMINGBIRD: I believe additional details 

 2 can be provided. Those are items that I think would 

 3 help provide clear examples of some of the risk-based 

 4 assessments that were done leading to how those 

 5 assessments were made to help provide a deeper 

 6 understanding, but yes, we can provide another document 
 7 in the future for you.

 8 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: This is greatly 

 9 appreciated. I don't know if my fellow commissioners 

 10 want to add to that, but thank you so much, Chairman. 

 11 MR. HUMMINGBIRD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and 

 12 thank you Vice Chairman Isom-Clause and Commissioner 

 13 Simermeyer, thank you for being here.

 14 MS. COLLIER: Exercise today. Good afternoon, 

 15 Chairman, Vice Chairman, committee member. Ditto what 
 16 all these -- I'm Barbara Kaiser Collier with Quapaw 

 17 Tribal Gaming Agency, and you have already received our 

 18 comments from our business committee signed by Chairman 

 19 John Berrey and myself in a joint effort to send our 

 20 formal comments to you concerning this 547 issue. 

 21 I want to go down a little bit different avenue 

 22 while I have you -- your attention. The sunset portion 

 23 of this grandfather clause is a problem. It is an 
 24 issue, and I'm sure you've heard that many times. It is 

 25 not that we do not want to meet the grandfather issue 
 43

 1 with 547 machines. We will be glad to do that, but we 

 2 are looking at it as we have gotten the corrective 

 3 measures, I guess you might say, from vendors or from 

 4 one vendor and not from others that we have machines on 

 5 the floor that had this issue. 

 6 It's going to be a timeframe issue. Now that the 
 7 fix, as you might call it, is made available, it will be 

 8 an issue for us as even the small tribe that we are or a 

 9 medium-sized tribe, I guess you might say, with several 

 10 machines that we have at our large casino that will need 

 11 this done to them. It will damage the revenue and the 

 12 impending revenue of our small casino immensely. 

 13 To go in, to take the time that we have been made 

 14 knowledgeable of, approximately 10 minutes or 15 minutes 

 15 to -- at the machine, but then the software will take an 
 16 additional hour or so. So when you take that times all 

 17 of the machines that need to be upgraded to meet this 

 18 demand, that's a long while. And at a small casino like 

 19 Ms. -- missus over here brought to our attention, it 

 20 will be effective. It will make a negative effect for 

 21 us. 

 22 Also, I don't know, you know, when these -- none of 

 23 you were there when these regulations were written and 
 24 we realize that, but regulations need to be written with 

 25 the efforts and the information that's derived to write 
 44

 1 them from frontline people. Frontline people that we 

 2 have at our casino, compliance agents that are there 

 3 daily seeing the machines, knowing the intricacies of 

 4 how they work, knowing the intricacies of putting the 

 5 software in, taking it out, unlocking the door, putting 

 6 the locks on the doors, the software, talking to the 
 7 server, knowing all of those things. 

 8 Those frontline people should be the ones that are 

 9 asked about rules and regulations and how safe they are 

 10 and if they're in place and how they work and the 

 11 intricacies of those. Maybe those forerunners did that. 

 12 I don't know. I have not been told. If so, maybe they 

 13 needed to look into it a little bit more, would be what 

 14 my opinion would be. 

 15 I've been with my tribe 30-plus years and this is 
 16 what it's about for me. I don't know if I can even talk 

 17 about it. It's about my people. It's about what 

 18 this -- it is about the money. It is about impeding the 

 19 income of the tribe. 

 20 When I started to work for my tribe, we had no 

 21 money. In 1974, we had a grant of $25,000 and that paid 

 22 everything. So from that two employees to now, over 

 23 1,400 employees, I think that we realize what we need to 
 24 do and what's best for our tribe. And just like Jamie 

 25 was giving you the information, the facts and the 
 45

 1 figures, that's what we know. We already know those 

 2 things. We already know that these machines have been 

 3 there for the duration, and we're willing to do what 

 4 you're asking. We just don't believe we can do it in 

 5 the timeframe that you're asking us to do it, which is 

 6 going to impede the progress of our tribe. 
 7 And our tribe now has insurance for every tribal 

 8 member, education money, social services, emergency 

 9 funding, housing, police, fire, tribal court, all of 

 10 these things that we have worked hard to get, but we 

 11 can't do that if we don't have the funding and we're 

 12 looking into a new future for some. We don't know. 

 13 It's unknown. 

 14 There's already rumors of budget cuts and program 

 15 cuts and things from the federal level and our state. 
 16 Oh, yeah, we have our state. We're in debt over eight 

 17 hundred and thirty-some thousand dollar shortfall --

 18 millions, I mean, not thousands. So are we going to get 

 19 assistance from our state? No, probably not. 

 20 We can't even get a stoplight at the end of the 

 21 turnpike for safety of everyone, and that sounds funny, 

 22 but that's the truth. I stand in line to get off that 

 23 turnpike every day timely. Takes a lot of time, because 
 24 there's no turn lane. Well, the state can't put it in 

 25 because they're poor. 
 46

 1 But anyway, I could go on and on and on about the 

 2 reasons, but my people are what's important to me and my 

 3 gaming and my regulation and that's why I do what I do, 

 4 because of my people, and this is what's going to be 

 5 better for them. If you can help us continue to help 

 6 them, because whether we like it or not, everyone has to 
 7 have money and it's usually about the money. We don't 

 8 like for it to be that way, but that's the way it is and 

 9 we all know that. We have to have incomes and -- to 

 10 survive, but I want my people to survive the best they 

 11 can, the best way we can. 

 12 So that's why I'm asking you to please rescind or 

 13 extend or whatever needs to be or whatever you can do to 

 14 make this workable for all of us. Thank you very much.

 15 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: And thank you. Thank 
 16 you, Ms. Collier.

 17 MR. BURRIS: Chairman -- Mr. Chairman, Tracy 

 18 Burris. Just a couple of comments. Boy, that's hard to 

 19 follow Barbara. Dang, I was trying to get before her. 

 20 No, couple things and I'm -- Class II is near and dear 

 21 to my heart and you know that. And one of the things I 

 22 want to say, because I haven't been involved, but I know 

 23 that Matthew on behalf of NIGA's committee and what 
 24 Jamie is doing at NTGRC, they are going forward and 

 25 bring great comments and thoughts, but two things I want 
 47

 1 to say, because I was in this battle a long time ago. 

 2 In the center Report 555 when we all talk about 

 3 maximum flexibility, it was always -- it's been 

 4 perceived and continues to be perceived as moving 

 5 forward. Yes, it was, but it also was that we dealt 

 6 with the technology that we had at the time. This is 
 7 that technology. It can't be swept under the carpet or 

 8 be left behind. And I realize the risks or the threats 

 9 to safety and all that, and we can make that argument 

 10 about everything that we do and we can over regulate 

 11 ourselves on that. 

 12 But by the same token, the very thing that -- and 

 13 Barbara just touched it, but she didn't say it enough, 

 14 and this is the one point I want to make, I've always 

 15 said this, if my insurance provider, a third party is 
 16 willing to take that risk and carry my policy, which 

 17 they don't bring any major risk or otherwise -- if it's 

 18 unfeasible to have those games in the facility because 

 19 of a potential tort claim, then that's one factor that 

 20 would drive it completely. 

 21 I don't want to say that they don't do good for 

 22 anyone, but the fact of it is, if my insurance provider 

 23 isn't there to help me, I'm not going to probably do it. 
 24 So that's an outside party, and my point would be, not 

 25 what all these good people are saying, and it's truth 
 48

 1 and has a lot of merit and valid, but the fact that a 

 2 third party will help drive this, too, should help the 

 3 agency and the commissioners to help hopefully move 

 4 forward in this decision process. 

 5 So that's all I want to emphasize to you and I'll 

 6 provide further comments on that. Thank you.
 7 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: Thank you, Mr. Burris.

 8 MR. YORK: My name is Buddy York. I'm the 

 9 gaming commissioner for the Muscogee Creek Nation and I 

 10 want to thank you for this opportunity, Mr. Chairman. 

 11 One of the things I wanted to explain is the Tulsa 

 12 facility, the one you're in now, it's not going to be 

 13 that big of an issue here, I don't think. There will be 

 14 a time issue, but not nothing that we can't do if we put 

 15 our minds to it. 
 16 We have four or five facilities that are out in 

 17 rural areas and I believe that's another area that 

 18 you're having consultation now about economic 

 19 development in rural areas, and we are probably one of 

 20 the biggest employers in three of those small towns, you 

 21 know. So everything that happens there affects the 

 22 whole community. 

 23 And one of the things that we have to understand, 
 24 which my background is in rural community casinos, if 

 25 the wrong basketball team loses, our income could go 
 49

 1 down 10 percent. You know, everybody is that closely 

 2 intertwined and everything, but they also know that any 

 3 time something changes on one of those machines, every 

 4 person in that casino knows it and they -- you know, 

 5 that's an issue for them. 

 6 It's -- it will hurt our business for a small time, 
 7 but when you're talking about small casinos, there's not 

 8 a lot of income. These casinos are there for employment 

 9 opportunities. They're not there particularly to make 

 10 money for the tribe. If we close those down, the people 

 11 would come to Tulsa. We'd still get their income, but 

 12 that employment would leave that community and it would 

 13 not be there any longer. 

 14 We also work with our communities on fire, our fire 

 15 departments. We work with the police departments. We 
 16 work with the schools, and you know, these are things 

 17 that the larger casinos can't do, not out in these local 

 18 areas. And so I think that since we are being a good 

 19 community friend to all the communities that we have 

 20 these casinos in, that you know, that's something that 

 21 should be taken into consideration when we're looking at 

 22 this. It's not that we can't change out the machines. 

 23 We can and it's -- but it's very difficult to determine 
 24 just how it would affect the income on those smaller 

 25 casinos. That's basically all I had to say. Thank you 
 50

 1 very much. 

 2 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: Thank you, Mr. York.

 3 MR. BURRIS: Mr. Chairman, one more thing and 

 4 something that Buddy touched on. I'm in Southern 

 5 California, so obviously we used to have Class II or 

 6 they called it that, but what he said about the impact 
 7 of the -- the players knowing changes before we do, 

 8 golly, they know it better than we do sometimes. 

 9 But an example, the U.S. Games, if a game that's 

 10 been around for 40 years, that's our biggest revenue 

 11 generator in Southern California, and those machines, 

 12 every now and then, they die out and we have to pull one 

 13 because we can't get replacement parts and we can't even 

 14 get a new one to make them any more and they go nuts, 

 15 but my point is, that machine has been around for over 
 16 40 years and still going. 

 17 My advice to the commission, if we want to be true 

 18 about due diligence, maybe we should look at the other 

 19 industries, commercial, outside, which we don't have 

 20 access to. Maybe you have friends in places that can 

 21 give you statistics on their data for machines that are 

 22 in play and been around forever and I bet you if we look 

 23 throughout these states, there are tons and tons of ones 
 24 playing the same level or maybe -- maybe worse if that's 

 25 the word to use in this case, but I don't think they are 
 51

 1 a threat, so it would be interesting within the 

 2 Commission's connection with state agencies and other 

 3 deals to find that information out to help come to a 

 4 part of their decision making process. Thank you.

 5 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: And thank you, 

 6 Mr. Burris. I do want to add, independent -- I mean, 
 7 kind of as a spring board from previous discussions, 

 8 independent from our asked-for perspectives regarding 

 9 risks internally, we've been looking at risks -- risk 

 10 assessment as well.

 11 MR. PRATT: Bruce Pratt from the Pawnee 

 12 Nation. Just sitting here listening to this discussion, 

 13 what comes to mind is older doesn't mean obsolete. You 

 14 know, as I get older, as my hair gets wider, I hope not, 

 15 you know. And another phrase that comes to mind, if 
 16 it's not broken, don't mess with it. Don't fix it. 

 17 Pawnee Nation is a smaller tribe. We -- we are 

 18 small and we're probably one of the smallest casinos 

 19 here in the State of Oklahoma, our three casinos. And, 

 20 you know, these -- these kind of decisions have a big, 

 21 big impact upon our gaming revenue. 

 22 What's always difficult for, I think, us in general 

 23 as Indian people and is -- it's always difficult when 
 24 we're forced to do anything. You know, I think 

 25 there's -- there's that resistance factor in all of us 
 52

 1 that we tend not to like that, you know. And so 

 2 these -- these consultations are good. You know, 

 3 they're good at all of the levels at all the federal 

 4 agencies and different things. 

 5 You know, you have stated two or three times now 

 6 about NIGC's role in not being an unnecessary roadblock, 
 7 and so you know, in economic development, in tribal 

 8 nations, in gaming, and so you know, I know that here in 

 9 Oklahoma, I know in my tribe particularly, the Pawnee 

 10 Nation, that we -- we're a good neighbor, you know, in 

 11 our community and we're the biggest economic force in 

 12 our county and really we're about the only game in town, 

 13 you know, because Pawnee has been drying up. 

 14 And so our community, our -- outside of our Indian 

 15 community, but the total community is really invested in 
 16 what we do and how we do things. And it's important to 

 17 us being a smaller tribe that gaming is a significant 

 18 part of what we do and even the downturn in the oil 

 19 industry here -- oil and gas industry here in Oklahoma 

 20 has severely impacted us where we're at. 

 21 We're also doing an expansion right now and that's 

 22 really impacted us. And so everything is just -- it 

 23 really -- it really can pile on, feels like piling on. 
 24 And, you know, my fear as a tribal leader, especially 

 25 here -- here in Oklahoma as has been stated is, you 
 53

 1 know, I believe that -- that Indian nations here in 

 2 Oklahoma, the tribal -- the tribes, we -- we know best 

 3 how to distribute money, in our communities, locally, 

 4 you know, all these things that's been talked about, to 

 5 the schools, to the roads, to all of these 

 6 infrastructure that is so needed in our communities and 
 7 not being met by the federal or the state level, and the 

 8 Indian tribes, we drive that. We're the driving force 

 9 in that and we have that huge impact. 

 10 My fear is giving more money to the state, because 

 11 as was said, we're almost a billion dollars in debt here 

 12 in Oklahoma and we've been giving billions of dollars to 

 13 the State of Oklahoma, you know, in gaming revenue. It 

 14 also is just -- you know, for me, it's just like 

 15 terrible timing for us as Indian nations as we come into 
 16 compacts that are due up here in Oklahoma. It's like 

 17 we're -- one of our biggest sticks is being taken away. 

 18 And we've got a little bitty stick now and we don't need 

 19 a little bitty sticks. We need the big sticks in 

 20 protecting our sovereign rights as tribal nations. 

 21 And even on the federal side, you know, just so 

 22 many unknowns, so many unknowns, and I think that's what 

 23 we're looking at. That's what I see, state level, 
 24 national level, you know, all of these things. 

 25 We're trying to protect and trying to preserve what 
 54

 1 we have and how we do things as Indian people and how we 

 2 serve our tribal members, but not only our tribal 

 3 members, but our community members. So these things 

 4 impact us, you know, in an -- I'm speaking on behalf of 

 5 the Pawnee Nation. It impacts us in a big way. 

 6 Class II gaming has really been good for Oklahoma, 
 7 really been great for Oklahoma, and I would just hate to 

 8 lose that. It seems like we ought to be able, with all 

 9 of the technology, all of the knowledge, all of the --

 10 all of the things that -- that we have as far as the 

 11 abilities to do things, it seems like we ought to be 

 12 able to take care of something that's, to me, very 

 13 important, you know, in this area, in our industry, in 

 14 the gaming industry, and so -- and so I just wanted to 

 15 voice that. 
 16 The Pawnee Nation will be presenting formal 

 17 comments and things, but just wanted to say those 

 18 things. Once again, I always appreciate consultation 

 19 because you learn a lot. I like the back and forth and 

 20 hopefully -- hopefully that there be a good resolution, 

 21 an agreeable resolution to that. 

 22 Just remind you that we're all Indians. We're all 

 23 Indians, and we've all been there, done that, and so 
 24 appreciate the opportunity to speak to you. Thank you.

 25 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: Thank you, sir.
 55

 1 MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Chairman, Vice, 

 2 Chairman, committee member. I'm going to ramble just a 

 3 little bit. I served my "gaming commission" in 1982. I 

 4 served with Barbara's father and our job basically was

 5 we stood there with a counter and counted the people 

 6 that walked into our bingo hall, because we got paid a 
 7 dollar a person that came into the hall, and that was 

 8 basically what we did when we started out. That was our 

 9 gaming commission. 

 10 We've come a long ways. In 1990, when I was 

 11 elected chairman of the Quapaw Tribe, Barbara was my 

 12 tribal administrator. It was during that time we were 

 13 losing revenue because we weren't the only bingo hall in 

 14 town. There's a lot of other committees that --

 15 communities that had started bingo. So we were losing 
 16 revenue and we were looking at ways to try and generate 

 17 more. 

 18 We had some people bring in these games. I don't 

 19 even remember the titles of them, but they were 

 20 electronic pull tab machines and we had 12 of them --

 21 wasn't it, Barbara? Was it 12 or 10?

 22 MS. COLLIER: Twelve.

 23 MR. MATTHEWS: It was 12 of them we brought in 
 24 on the floor. We had them on there for seven days until 

 25 the rest of my committee decided they wanted to pull 
 56

 1 them off the floor, but in those seven days, those 12 

 2 machines generated more money for our hall than all of 

 3 the bingo that we had. I mean, it was phenomenal --

 4 MS. COLLIER: $32,000.

 5 MR. MATTHEWS: Huh?

 6 MS. COLLIER: Over $32,000.
 7 MR. MATTHEWS: Over $32,000 we made in those 

 8 seven days, but the business committee thought we were 

 9 going to get in trouble, we couldn't do this because the 

 10 NIGC was all brand new. It was when Tony was the 

 11 chairman. We had already spoken to him and talked to 

 12 him. 

 13 That was 1990. Okay. So since then, we've had 

 14 leaps and bounds in technology. How many in here have 

 15 the Lucky Tech games still on their floor? Anyone? Oh, 
 16 yeah, but you know that's the case that we won, Jess 

 17 Green took it to the Supreme Court. And guess what? We 

 18 don't play them anymore. You know why? Because they 

 19 died a natural death, and that's what these games will 

 20 do one day. They're going to wear out. They're going 

 21 to quit playing. Something is going to happen to 

 22 replace them. 

 23 There doesn't have to be an arbitrary date with a 
 24 sunset clause for a grandfathered game. I mean, we 

 25 drive cars around that are pre-smog controlled cars, but 
 57

 1 there's not an arbitrary date that we have to take that 

 2 '57 Chevy off the road just because it doesn't meet the 

 3 standards of air quality. It's still going to be driven 

 4 because it's a grandfathered car. 

 5 But that's what these -- what -- these units that 

 6 we have on the floor, they're making money. Steve asked 
 7 me, he goes, "How many of these are out there?" I said, 

 8 "There's a lot, but people like them and they continue 

 9 to play them." It's like a television show. You may 

 10 have a favorite show on there. At some point, it gets 

 11 old and tired. The networks replace them. What 

 12 happens? Sometimes they replace it with another show 

 13 that people like and sometimes they replace it with one 

 14 they don't. That's what we do. As operators, we take 

 15 chances on new machines. Sometimes it works. Sometimes 
 16 it doesn't. But that's on the operators, not on the 

 17 commissions, not on the regulators. They're not the 

 18 ones choosing what goes on the floor. It's the 

 19 operators. It's the people that run the operations. 

 20 They're the ones that have to try and figure this out. 

 21 So to pull these machines off the floor on an 

 22 arbitrary date, why? They're meeting the risk standards 

 23 right now. I don't -- we haven't heard anyone talk 
 24 about patrons wanting these games off the floor. We 

 25 haven't heard anyone say, "Those machines have cheated 
 58

 1 me." We haven't heard any operator say that the 

 2 manufacturers have cheated us. So why do we want to do 

 3 this? 

 4 That's why we, as the committee, are really trying 

 5 hard to give you the documentation that you need, 

 6 because that's who's going to have to make this 
 7 decision. It's not us. It's you, but we want to give 

 8 you the empirical data that you're going to need to 

 9 stand up before Congress and say here's the reason that 

 10 we're going to do away with this, because I believe 

 11 you'll have that at some point in time here in the 

 12 future, because we as operators, we want this to be a 

 13 strong and a regulated industry as much as you do, and 

 14 that's why we want to work together with you, unlike 

 15 some of the former chairman -- Tony, Bill -- who didn't 
 16 want to help us. I'm sorry. I said that. 

 17 But I'm just saying that, you know, we are here to 

 18 work with you, and that's -- that's really what it 

 19 takes. Thank you.

 20 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: Thank you, sir. Thank 

 21 you.

 22 MR. MATTHEWS: You bet. 

 23 MR. HUMMINGBIRD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 
 24 Jamie Hummingbird with Cherokee Nation again. I just 

 25 wanted to before -- I have to leave here very shortly, 
 59

 1 but before we left, I just wanted to make a couple of 

 2 remarks based on a couple of things I heard throughout 

 3 this week of the sessions. 

 4 One -- one remark was made earlier this week about 

 5 tribes and where we have been placed historically when 

 6 we've been removed from our homelands and placed into 
 7 places like Oklahoma where people thought we would never 

 8 want that land. Nobody wants that land. 

 9 Well, until there was oil found on our lands, then 

 10 everybody wanted that land. When the Cherokees were in 

 11 Georgia, nobody wanted that land until they found gold. 

 12 Then they wanted that land. 

 13 Same thing with IGRA in the sense that we have a 

 14 document that's not a perfect document. It wasn't -- I 

 15 don't think it was necessarily envisioned to be what it 
 16 is today, but what tribes have done historically is 

 17 taken the circumstances they've been given and making 

 18 the most out of them. 

 19 Here in Oklahoma, we have done just that. We have 

 20 looked at the provisions within the Indian Gaming 

 21 Regulatory Act. We've examined its contents, and over 

 22 the years, have successfully not only grown the 

 23 industry, but really defined the industry for Class II. 
 24 So it is in our tribal interest and our people --

 25 interest of our people that we want to, just as JR 
 60

 1 mentioned, make sure that what we offer up to the public 

 2 is something that we can stand up and say definitively 

 3 is in the public's interest, because we are there to 

 4 maintain the integrity of that game. Without that 

 5 integrity, we have nothing. 

 6 We do not want to see the integrity of those games 
 7 compromised in the least. So when we are looking at 

 8 this issue, when trying to find the best way to resolve 

 9 it, I look forward to continuing our dialogue just 

 10 because I think it's been a healthy dialogue. It's one 

 11 that is going to provide us with a good pathway as we 

 12 move forward with the resolution to this issue, and I 

 13 want to thank the chairman and the NIGC staff members 

 14 for being cooperative and listening to tribes and taking 

 15 our comments and our recommendations and hopefully being 
 16 able to make very informed decisions that will benefit 

 17 all tribes across the country. So thank you very much.

 18 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: Thank you. Well, we 

 19 always say, going once, going twice, going three times. 

 20 Okay. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Okay. 

 21 MS. HOMER: Wasn't going to allow that to 

 22 happen. Chairman, members of the NIGC and staff, I 

 23 think this has been a wonderful dialogue and I really 
 24 appreciate it. 

 25 You know, back in the long ago olden days of the 
 61

 1 NIGC when I was there -- Elizabeth Lohah Homer -- we 

 2 really did try to reach out and have -- and engage in 

 3 dialogue. We actually did kind of a form of negotiative 

 4 rule making for most of the rules that we did during our 

 5 term of the NIGC. And one of the rules that we started 

 6 out with that was kind of laying on our desk when we 
 7 were first appointed was a game classification 

 8 regulation. 

 9 This regulation, I guess the first phone calls I 

 10 got and the first time anyone ever got in my face about 

 11 an NIGC regulation was this game classification 

 12 regulation. And people were very, very upset about it, 

 13 and so we had a series of hearings on that and took 

 14 testimony as to what the issues were with the game 

 15 classification. 
 16 And part of it was the regulation allowed a role 

 17 for state governments to play in classification of 

 18 games, which was very objectionable. And we ultimately 

 19 agreed that that was objectionable and we ultimately 

 20 decided to withdraw that rule all together, because it 

 21 really -- it just didn't make sense for Indian country. 

 22 It was taking some of the benefit of the Indian 

 23 Gaming Regulatory Act that was specifically intended to 
 24 help tribes and taking that away, removing it. And so 

 25 we tossed that aside, and instead, we did the changes to 
 62

 1 the Class II regulatory definitions to bring more 

 2 clarity to the interpretation of what is Class II, what 

 3 is Class III, what is a game similar to bingo, and what 

 4 is an electromechanical facsimile, because we thought 

 5 that was probably the answer to all of these questions. 

 6 That's what the Court was telling us, was that the 
 7 NIGC's definitions did not give the Court any real 

 8 guidance. It was unhelpful to the Court. 

 9 And so that's where we turned our attention to. 

 10 And then in the next administration, the Hogan 

 11 administration, during Chairman Hogan's tenure, they 

 12 resurrected the game classification regulations and they 

 13 got the same response that we had gotten. Everyone went 

 14 insane. No, you can't be doing this. You know, very 

 15 upset throughout Indian country. 
 16 And then Chairman Hogan seized on the idea of these 

 17 technical standards, that if the laboratories could test 

 18 these and we could be convinced that the inside of this 

 19 game is a bingo game, then we don't need classification 

 20 regulations, and they ultimately proposed and threw away 

 21 these classification regulations and their focus became 

 22 on these -- on the technical standards. 

 23 Now, these technical standards, and as I think 
 24 Barbara pointed out, none of you were there then, but I 

 25 was and I will tell you this was a bitter, bitter 
 63

 1 struggle. It was a big fight between Indian country and 

 2 the NIGC over these -- over these technical standards. 

 3 Big, giant -- big, giant arguments. It took, you know, 

 4 what is it, four years from 2004 to 2008, you know, to 

 5 finally get these regulations promulgated. All of that 

 6 was four years of hair pulling and screaming and 
 7 yelling. And everything finally got resolved between 

 8 the NIGC and the tribes, except one thing, and that is 

 9 this sunset provision. 

 10 Now, as a lawyer, and I'm a lawyer, one of the 

 11 things -- and I was also a fed, you know, I was a 

 12 government bureaucrat. And one of my pet peeves besides 

 13 an interpretation of law that deprives the tribes the 

 14 fullest benefit of that law, is a regulation that kind 

 15 of takes away the benefit of what the tribes are doing 
 16 economically, as is the case with this sunset provision. 

 17 The sunset -- you know, in -- and I don't want to 

 18 say in the real world, because we live in the real 

 19 world. Ours is the real world, but in the real world, 

 20 for lack of a better word, you either have a grandfather 

 21 or you have a sunset. We have a grandfather and a 

 22 sunset and that is illogical. That is legally 

 23 illogical. 
 24 If those games were safe enough and with sufficient 

 25 integrity to allow them to be played first for five 
 64

 1 years without any problems, several got extended for 

 2 another five years, why now is there an urgency to take 

 3 those systems out of play? It's not sustainable 

 4 logically as a matter of law. There is no reason that 

 5 we have been able to discern, that the NIGC has been 

 6 able to produce for us nor we for the NIGC, of evidence, 
 7 real evidence, which is what if we had to go to court 

 8 over this we'd all have to have, we'd all have to have 

 9 some real evidence, but there is none that these games 

 10 are lacking in integrity or they blow up. 

 11 How many of you-all have heard of a Class II gaming 

 12 system blowing up? Electrocuting a patron? It hasn't 

 13 happened, and because it hasn't happened, I don't think 

 14 that you can logically say, leave these games in play 

 15 for 10 years and then, bam, then they have to go. 
 16 Because the reason for why they had to go in the first 

 17 place doesn't exist. 

 18 So it is not legally sustainable, you know, to take 

 19 that next step and say, "Oh, well, it doesn't matter, we 

 20 have that regulation and so we're just going to follow 

 21 it." It has to make sense logically. And that's it for 

 22 me. That's my two bits.

 23 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: Thank you, Ms. Homer.
 24 COMMISSIONER SIMERMEYER: I don't want to 

 25 disrupt the conversations, but I'll just maybe make a 
 65

 1 comment myself about some of the comments that I've been 

 2 hearing, and I appreciate those and I appreciate all the 

 3 work that's gone into the preparation of this. So I 

 4 want to say thank you again for everyone that's 

 5 participating. 

 6 But for me, a lot of the commenters have made 
 7 points that have resonated with me. Particularly some 

 8 of the points about being part of the regulatory 

 9 community and the responsibility we have to -- to our --

 10 to protection of our reputation and maintaining the role 

 11 that we play. I think a lot of that begins with some of 

 12 the comments that were made with relying on this 

 13 additional knowledge and looking at sort of frontline 

 14 perspectives, so it's good to hear that and appreciate 

 15 hearing that. 
 16 Another point for me that has resonated is some of 

 17 the comments that -- from a federal decision making 

 18 perspective. You know, while there's value to 

 19 standardization that that brings, some of the comments 

 20 that were made and a one size fits all policy can be 

 21 very challenging, but one of the things that my approach 

 22 to the role that I have to play that is important is 

 23 being diplomatic with the role we play and so a lot of 
 24 the comments have been made about how individual 

 25 perspectives, the vision that tribes have for developing 
 66

 1 their own approach to how they are going to partner, for 

 2 how they are going to grow, for how they're going to 

 3 meet the needs of their citizens is also what we're for 

 4 here, too. So I just wanted to make those comments now.

 5 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: Thank you. Thank you, 

 6 Commissioner. So that's actually a perfect segue. 
 7 Again, want everybody to feel that there's been a full 

 8 opportunity to speak their mind today, but I don't want 

 9 anybody to feel that this is the only opportunity. 

 10 There is -- there are other consultations that I 

 11 encourage others to -- all of you to attend, but also 

 12 there's a written comment process that I encourage folks 

 13 to take advantage of as well. 

 14 But it's a perfect segue, Commissioner, to kind of 

 15 some closing thoughts, but I do want to make sure that 
 16 there are no other tribal leaders or representatives 

 17 that wish to make a comment on the record before we 

 18 close out. Going once. Going twice. 

 19 So, Vice Chair, if there's some closing comments 

 20 that you'd like to make? 

 21 COMMISSIONER ISOM-CLAUSE: Thank you. I'd 

 22 like to echo what Commissioner Simermeyer just said. In 

 23 full agreement with that. And thank you all for the 
 24 comments you've given us here today. You know, as you 

 25 know, we have to deal with the status quo. We didn't 
 67

 1 make these regulations, but this is what they are. And 

 2 in order to, you know, make any changes or make any 

 3 decisions at all, we need a record. And what you've all 

 4 provided today has been really helpful in helping us 

 5 look at this issue and provide reasons for the various 

 6 approaches that have been suggested here today, which I 
 7 don't think anyone supports the regulation. So I don't 

 8 guess we have that option presented today, but I do 

 9 really appreciate the thoughtful approach that everyone 

 10 has taken in terms of looking at this issue from many 

 11 different sides so that gives us a lot of information to 

 12 consider when we make our decision. 

 13 And I also think that, you know, our interests are 

 14 aligned here. We all want a strong industry and we all 

 15 want effective regulation and that's the way we go into 
 16 our decision making, I believe, and that's what you do 

 17 every day for your industries as well and for your 

 18 people. I think that's how we're going to move forward 

 19 with this process, so thank you.

 20 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: Anything you'd like to 

 21 add, Commissioner? 

 22 COMMISSIONER SIMERMEYER: Just this, if we're 

 23 in a period here of closing, I want to, again, reiterate 
 24 thanks for everyone's time and I value -- and 

 25 appreciation for my colleagues, too, and the value that 
 68

 1 I think we all have for the consultation process. It's 

 2 both an important part of -- the process has been an 

 3 important part of this and I appreciate and want to 

 4 compliment the NIGC folks and Indian country for 

 5 engaging and developing a process that I think is going 

 6 to give us a way to move forward in the best way and 
 7 where we come out on a lot of this discussion, so thank 

 8 you.

 9 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI. And just to echo that, I 

 10 really want to thank our team at NIGC. I know the work 

 11 that all -- all of us do is in spirit with doing 

 12 whatever we can day in and day out to support our 

 13 mission, and we're honored to work at an agency with a 

 14 very unique mission, and that is to support tribal self 

 15 sufficiency, tribal economic development, and strong 
 16 tribal government. 

 17 So I'm very thankful to be part of the larger NIGC 

 18 team. I think -- well, speaking for myself, but I have 

 19 a feeling this goes for all of us, there's certainly no 

 20 urgency to -- to make dramatic, drastic regulatory -- or 

 21 to take dramatic, drastic regulatory actions. We strive 

 22 at NIGC to be forward looking and that's one thing I'm 

 23 very proud of. When we looked at some of the provisions 
 24 that were on the books that were written with deadlines 

 25 in place, we looked to the future and said, what can we 
 69

 1 do to hear from our partners in Indian country, the 

 2 primary regulators of Indian gaming, that's tribal 

 3 regulators, to address what's coming down the pike. 

 4 Recognizing that regardless of whether we stick our 

 5 heads in the sand or not, time happens, and 2018 is 

 6 around the corner. So I can't take any credit for 
 7 thinking about discussions that we need to advance and 

 8 with respect to changes coming down the pike or 

 9 deadlines coming down the pike. I really admire and 

 10 appreciate our team who, you know, in conjunction with 

 11 all of our internal discussions said , you know, this is 

 12 something we really should talk about with our partners. 

 13 So there is no urgency on our part to take dramatic 

 14 action. We're trying to be forward looking and we're 

 15 trying to work in unison with our partners and our 
 16 colleagues and I appreciate all the goodwill and the 

 17 time that you've -- the -- all the goodwill that you've 

 18 shown and the time you've taken today to help us think 

 19 through reasonable options as we try to perform our 

 20 duties while not inhibiting the entrepreneurial spirit 

 21 of tribes. 

 22 So with that, blessings to you. Safe travels and 

 23 mvto. Hopefully you can attend tomorrow's consultations 
 24 as well. Thank you. 

 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What time?
 70

 1 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: 8:30 in the morning in 

 2 this room, and there's a whole series of -- I think 

 3 there's seven topics or eight topics --

 4 THE COMMISSIONERS: Six.

 5 CHAIRMAN CHAUDHURI: Six. Six topics that 

 6 we'll be discussing, so that's a much longer 
 7 consultation and we'll try and take a break in the 

 8 middle of it for a water break, but thank you for your 

 9 time today. Mvto. 

 10 (End of consultation.)

 11 

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 21 

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 25 
 71

 1 C E R T I F I C A T E

 2 

 3 I, Shannon S. Harwood, CSR do hereby certify that 

 4 on March 23, 2014, at 3:41 p.m. at the River Spirit 

 5 Casino, 8330 Riverside Parkway, Tulsa, Oklahoma, there 

 6 came before me tribal consultation; and that the 
 7 foregoing pages constitute a full, true, and correct 

 8 transcript of the tribal consultation on the date as 

 9 indicated.

 10 I do further certify that I am not counsel, 

 11 attorney, or relative of either party, or otherwise 

 12 interested in the event of this suit.

 13 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and 

 14 affixed my seal this 29th day of March, 2017.

 15 
 16 

 17 

 18 

 19 

 20 

 21 

 22 __________________________

 23 Shannon S. Harwood, CSR
 24 

 25 

 26