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9 BEFORE THE NATIONAL INDIAN GAMING COMMISSION

10 TRIBAL CONSULTATION

11 January 21, 2011

12 9:15 a.m.

13 Hyatt Regency Tamaya Resort

14 1300 Tuyuna Trail

15 Santa Ana Pueblo, New Mexico

16

17 Members of the Commission:

18 Ms. Tracie Stevens, Chair

 Ms. Steffani Cochran, Vice Chair

19 Mr. Daniel Little, Commissioner

 Ms. Lael Echo-Hawk, Counsel to Chairwoman

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Reported by: Sally Peters, RPR, New Mexico CCR 57

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25 Job No. NJ303774

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1 CHAIR STEVENS: Good morning. Good

2 morning, everyone. Good morning. I hope you are

3 all well this morning, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed.

4 Before we begin, I would like to turn over

5 the meeting to the lieutenant governor of the Santa

6 Ana Pueblo, Lieutenant Governor Lujan.

7 MR. LUJAN: Good morning. Good morning,

8 everybody. Can you hear me without the mike? Thank

9 you.

10 I would like to do a welcome prayer for

11 all of you here, as most appropriate, so if you

12 would please rise.

13 (A welcome prayer was offered in Tewa.)

14 MR. LUJAN: Thank you. You may be seated.

15 It's a pleasure to stand here before you.

16 I would like to welcome all the regions, governors,

17 chairmen, tribes, councilmen, and distinguished

18 guests. I welcome you here to the Hyatt Regency

19 Tamaya Resort and Spa. It's certainly a pleasure to

20 be standing here before you. It's been quite some

21 time that I have filled this capacity as lieutenant

22 governor. I have been lieutenant governor in the

23 past, but there has been at least seven or eight

24 years before getting this position back again. So I

25 am pretty much left out of the loop on a lot of

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1 issues that concern gaming.

2 I know you have quite a bit of work ahead

3 of you into the new year, because I also realize and

4 found out you also have a new chairwoman and vice

5 chairwoman in place. They have to work for all of

6 you here, and so I would just like to welcome,

7 again, everybody here to the Pueblo of Santa Ana.

8 As far as speaking in general, as far as

9 gaming goes, the Pueblo of Santa Ana has really seen

10 quite a bit as far as overhead revenues that are

11 generated right to the pueblo. And it's always a

12 pleasure for me, because it doesn't just affect only

13 certain individuals. It affects the community as a

14 whole. We have been able to go ahead and upgrade

15 our infrastructure -- water, sewer. We have had a

16 chance to go ahead and have computer labs for our

17 kids with intergenerational buildings for our

18 seniors, the kids, so that they can all get

19 together. Libraries, all of this basically from

20 casinos, and I realize that all of these are good

21 items coming from the casino.

22 There are some bad things, and I am pretty

23 sure you are here to discuss all of this, with all

24 of the appropriations, fees, background checks. I

25 am pretty sure all of this will be discussed, and

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1 maybe going years back and to present, but anything

2 that might need to be tweaked out, need to be

3 improved on, let's go ahead and take that a step

4 further. So without further adieu, I will just go

5 ahead and turn this back over to Chairwoman Stevens.

6 Thank you very much.

7 CHAIR STEVENS: Thank you, Lieutenant

8 Governor Lujan.

9 Excuse me just a minute. The last thing I

10 need is candy.

11 Anyway, my name is Tracie Stevens. I am a

12 member of the Tulalip Tribe from Washington state.

13 I am the chairwoman of the National Indian Gaming

14 Commission. I was sworn in on June 28th of 2010.

15 I want to extend my thanks and say thank

16 you to Santa Ana Pueblo for their generosity for

17 hosting this meeting today. You will see that in

18 the future, this commission is going to endeavor to

19 hold these meetings on Indian land in Indian

20 facilities.

21 This facility is beautiful, as I was

22 expressing to the lieutenant governor privately

23 before the meeting. And as you said, this is a good

24 demonstration of what gaming revenues can do for

25 tribes. I want to thank all of you for attending.

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1 Thank you all for traveling, if you have traveled

2 today or over the past, overnight to join us here.

3 I also want to introduce -- and they will

4 have a moment to speak here in a moment -- Vice

5 Chairwoman Steffani Cochran to my right. She is the

6 vice chair of the commission. And also over here we

7 have Associate Commissioner Dan Little, and they

8 will say a few words in a moment.

9 I would also like to recognize our

10 regional staff. They are actually out there working

11 right now, but without them, we would not be able to

12 organize these meetings. They have been very

13 helpful in making sure that everything is in order

14 for you and for us so that these meetings go as

15 smoothly as possible. From where I come from, it's

16 important to recognize the people who support you,

17 because we could not do what we do without their

18 help.

19 To start today, I do want to remind

20 everyone of our initiatives as the new commission.

21 Many of you have heard us speak the past four or

22 five times about the agenda that we have set as a

23 new commission. This is an entirely new commission.

24 It's a full commission that has not been fully

25 staffed for several years.

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1 But we have identified four major areas as

2 a result of our time working for tribes, but also in

3 our time inside the commission, each of us, and our

4 discussions with tribes.

5 These four major initiatives go as

6 follows: The first primary initiative that we have

7 is consultation and relationship building; two,

8 technical assistance and training; three, regulatory

9 review, which is the subject of today's

10 consultation; and four, agency operations review.

11 Now, today, and in the previous four

12 sessions that we have had over the past week and a

13 half, it is the beginning of a new approach for this

14 commission on how we consult with tribes. You will

15 see this is a new format for the commission. I know

16 that many are accustomed and the past commission had

17 practiced the individual meetings where you signed

18 up on a sheet of paper and got 15 to 45 minutes to

19 go over broad policy, like we are going to talk

20 about today, or your individual matters, and it was

21 a bit of a marathon, I think, for the commission.

22 So this is a new format, and it allows for

23 an open dialogue and exchange of ideas. It

24 identifies problems and gaps, but it also offers an

25 opportunity for all of us to come up with solutions

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1 together. And what I am hearing or what we are

2 hearing in the past couple of weeks as we have

3 done -- this is our fifth consultation -- we are

4 hearing that tribes like this format, because they

5 weren't able to hear in the past what other tribes'

6 concerns were or to hear other tribes' options for

7 solutions, not knowing that there was an issue that

8 they had as a tribe, but they didn't realize it was

9 also an issue for another tribe somewhere else in

10 the country. Or if there were difference in being

11 able to hear that and come up with some ideas. A

12 lot of tribes so far are appreciative of this open

13 format.

14 So today, this format, what it does, it

15 allows us to hear your concerns, hear your

16 priorities, hear your thoughts, your suggestions,

17 and your solutions. Now, certainly the previous

18 individual meetings allowed you, allowed the tribes

19 to address specific individual tribal concerns

20 privately. We certainly don't expect that in this

21 open format.

22 We do take time as a commission to set

23 time aside to meet with tribes about their specific

24 needs, whether it's an operational issue, a

25 regulatory issue, a question you might have that's

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1 just specific to your tribe. We certainly can do

2 that, and we don't expect anyone to air their

3 private issue here.

4 But we can have side meetings if we know

5 in advance, or even if it's just something you want

6 to grab us and talk to us about, we certainly can do

7 that.

8 So this first priority is demonstrated

9 here today. It's a new way for us to consult and

10 have a discussion, have an exchange, and not have it

11 be a one way conversation, and it's meant to honor

12 the president's commitment to tribes, to have

13 meaningful and collaborative consultation with

14 tribes. It's part of his effort, too, to have good

15 government. You as the constituents for this agency

16 should have a say in what we do, and this forum

17 allows that to happen.

18 Our second priority is technical

19 assistance and training, and that's a statutory

20 mandate. It's in the act, and we must provide it,

21 but it should be more than just a requirement. And

22 that's what we are striving to do. We are examining

23 our technical assistance and training program so

24 that we meet the needs that you have and that you

25 have prioritized and that you have identified. If

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1 we have a technical assistance training program that

2 isn't working, then it doesn't do anyone any good.

3 It doesn't help us protect the industry together.

4 So we are also looking to see how we can

5 streamline our program so that we reduce

6 redundancies in that program if we are overlapping.

7 But last Thursday we issued a survey online. We

8 faxed it. We e-mailed it. We snail mailed it. We

9 did a press release. We certainly can get you more

10 information, and Ken certainly can help you with

11 that if you have questions. I saw some puzzled

12 looks out there in the audience.

13 It's online. You can fill it out online

14 and submit it online. What it is, it's a survey

15 that asks: What are your training needs? What kind

16 of training do you need? How is the training

17 working that we have now? How is it working out?

18 And give us some suggestions, and it all can be

19 submitted in any way that you need to. That's going

20 to help us tailor our training better to better meet

21 your needs. So as we go along, the survey is just

22 one of several initial steps that we are taking to

23 improve this program.

24 Agency operations review, that's another

25 one of our initiatives. And that's us looking at

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1 ourselves, and saying is there a way that we can,

2 under the president's good government initiative, to

3 streamline our operations, reduce redundancies, and

4 provide better service. And there is a lot to that,

5 and I want to say technical assistance and training

6 is being headed up by Steffani Cochran. Agency

7 operations review is being headed up by Dan Little.

8 The agency operations review, if we are

9 going to ask you to opt -- we should be just as

10 concerned about our operations as we are about

11 yours, and we should be more transparent about what

12 we are doing, and we are striving to do that. So

13 that's another major initiative.

14 The final initiative is regulatory review,

15 and I committed to that in my nomination process.

16 And every new administration that comes in has a

17 prerogative to look back at the past

18 administration's finalized regulations and look at

19 them for their relevance and if they are still

20 suitable to the needs of the industry, and that's

21 what we are doing today.

22 We are doing this regulatory review in a

23 fashion that hasn't been done before for this

24 commission, through sort of a preview before we

25 start initiating a rulemaking process. Today we are

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1 going to talk about which regulations and in what

2 order and how should we go about it. Today is not a

3 line by line drafting session of the regulations.

4 It's an agenda setting that you have a say in, that

5 you should tell us what should come first, and then

6 how we should do this. There are priorities that we

7 need to address, and we need to do it in a timely

8 fashion.

9 This effort is to address the need for

10 regulatory change before we actually make it, and

11 you get to weigh in on that. Some ranks are going

12 to be easier than others. You know, low hanging

13 fruits and some technical changes that would make

14 everybody's lives easier or make our processing go

15 more smoothly. There are others that are going to

16 require a lot of work and a lot of time and a lot of

17 thought, and we are going to talk about how we can

18 address those today.

19 Now certainly we are not going to agree on

20 everything as we go forward, but we are going to be

21 transparent about any disagreements that we have and

22 why we make any decisions. We won't be making

23 decisions here today. Really today is for you.

24 Today, as I was telling the lieutenant governor,

25 today is your time to tell us what your priorities

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1 are, what your needs are in terms of regulatory

2 change, if any, what works for this region or what

3 works for your specific tribe, what doesn't work.

4 All of these are being recorded today so that you

5 can see what other tribes are saying in other parts

6 of the country. In our effort to be transparent, we

7 are sharing all of our information. We know we have

8 heard criticism of previous consultations that have

9 been done in the past, that it was like commenting

10 into a void and never hearing anything back and not

11 understanding why your comments or your suggestions

12 weren't taken.

13 So all of this, there is going to be a

14 record so that you can see what is being said and

15 how we have come to the decisions we did when it

16 comes to setting a regulatory agenda.

17 Before I move to Lael Echo-Hawk, who is a

18 counselor and she will be basically running through

19 the Notice of Inquiry that was posted in November

20 and is the topic of today's discussion, but before I

21 do, I will turn it over to the other commissioners,

22 Vice Chairwoman Steffani Cochran.

23 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Good morning. I feel

24 so short. Stand up.

25 Good morning, governors, lieutenant

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1 governors. I see several other former governors and

2 some other elected leaders back there, so good

3 morning to you. Good morning also to those of you

4 who have come to participate. I see attorneys, a

5 lot of familiar faces, and it's always nice to be

6 home. I have been blessed this week by spending

7 time both where I come from in Oklahoma, and then

8 back here, which is home for me now. And so it's

9 going to be hard to get on a plane and go back to

10 DC, I'm afraid, tomorrow. But thank you so much for

11 allowing us to come talk with you today. Thank you

12 for giving us an opportunity to speak and to hear

13 your concerns.

14 It's always a privilege for me to be in

15 your presence and to hear your thoughts. So I

16 appreciate your time. I know you're very, very

17 busy. I look forward to what you have to say. I

18 think there are some exciting things happening, of

19 course, in New Mexico and in the Southwest in

20 gaming, and so I'm sure you have got some input that

21 will help us work through these regulatory issues so

22 that we can get the best product we can get in the

23 amount of time that we have to give.

24 So thank you, Lieutenant Governor Lujan,

25 again. Thank you for the wonderful hospitality and

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1 the very comfortable bed last night to sleep in. So

2 I appreciate that very much. Thank you.

3 CHAIR STEVENS: Thank you, Steffani.

4 Dan.

5 COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Good morning,

6 everyone. I, too, want to thank the governor of the

7 Santa Ana Pueblo. It's a beautiful facility. It's

8 always great to be back here. I want to welcome

9 everyone here this morning.

10 And it's probably worth repeating what the

11 chairwoman said and what Lael will talk about

12 shortly here. This is a different kind of a setting

13 that maybe many are used to, and that is, you know,

14 it's going to be less us talking at you and more of

15 us talking with you, and that this basically is

16 designed so you can address your thoughts and your

17 ideas.

18 So I am really looking forward to hearing

19 how these suggestions that we have made -- and I

20 want to repeat that. These are only suggestions and

21 questions that we are asking to just stimulate some

22 discussion. The commission has not taken any

23 positions on these. So we just want to make sure

24 everybody realizes these are questions that we are

25 requesting some ideas and thoughts. And so I look

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1 forward to hearing from you, and once again,

2 welcome. Thank you.

3 CHAIR STEVENS: Thanks, Dan. Thanks,

4 Steffani.

5 So I'm going to turn it over to Lael.

6 Many of you know we posted the Notice of Inquiry,

7 which addresses the need for change before we start

8 embarking on change and to allow tribes to weigh in

9 on our priorities and to set the agenda. So she

10 will go over the Notice of Inquiry and our next

11 steps.

12 Again, I want to say thank you very much

13 for attending. We realize that there are many other

14 events going on. We know the legislature is in

15 session at this time, and that your schedule is far

16 busier than ours. So we do appreciate your taking

17 time out of your very busy schedules to come meet

18 with us today.

19 I do really want to say we want to hear

20 what you have to say, not only about the Notice of

21 Inquiry and the regulations, but how to move forward

22 with solutions or anything else that maybe is not

23 covered in here, that we would be happy to hear your

24 comments on.

25 So I will turn it over to Lael Echo-Hawk,

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1 who will briefly run through the Notice of Inquiry

2 before we open the forum for comments.

3 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Good morning. I want to

4 echo the thoughts of the commission and express my

5 appreciation to the Pueblo of Santa Ana welcoming us

6 here. I am so excited. I kind of got to select

7 where we were going to go. I stayed here one time

8 before, and I said, please, can we go there. It's a

9 great facility, and I am just really excited that we

10 are able to be here.

11 My name is Lael Echo-Hawk, and I am a

12 member of Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma, counselor to

13 the chairwoman at the NIGC, of course, and I have

14 been tasked with this responsibility, and I think

15 it's really an opportunity to begin looking at the

16 regulations that govern this industry.

17 And before we do that, you know, we wanted

18 to take -- we were trying to think how can we take

19 advantage of tribal input, how can we really, really

20 solicit tribal thoughts and hear their concerns

21 about which direction we need to go. And so we sort

22 of came up with this idea, this Notice of Inquiry

23 that I will talk about a little bit more.

24 But logistically, this is my name. You

25 can contact me at this e-mail with regard to this

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1 particular topic and, of course, our phone number.

2 You can send your comments to this, questions. This

3 e-mail will reach me, and we will be responsive.

4 So why a regulatory review? Well, of

5 course, IGRA tasked the NIGC with putting together

6 regulations that implement the Indian Regulatory

7 Act. Additionally, there is an executive order,

8 12,866, the Regulatory Planning and Review and then

9 the Regulatory Flexibility Act which require

10 administrative agencies to semi-annually put out an

11 agenda: What regulations are we going to look at

12 and review?

13 Additionally, just this week, President

14 Obama again directed his administration to look at

15 our regulations and take a look at them if they are

16 outdated. His focus is really on jobs, but it goes

17 again to why we need to continue this regulatory

18 review.

19 Consultation, as the chairwoman indicated,

20 consultation and relationship building with tribes

21 is the No. 1 priority of this commission. So we are

22 here. We are in Indian country. We have this

23 amazing road show, but we wanted to come out into

24 Indian country, be in Indian facilities, and talk to

25 you about these regulations that affect your

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1 industry, and as the lieutenant governor indicated,

2 the services that you can provide for your people,

3 and how can we adjust these regulations so that the

4 industry is regulated, but that it also does what

5 it's intended to do, and that is promote self

6 government, self-sufficiency, and economic

7 development.

8 The executive order has a number of

9 sections in it that, you know, I hadn't really heard

10 kind of hyped up very much, and we kind of found

11 some sections that really appeal to us, and really

12 like brought home the point of meaningful

13 consultation and what we really need to be doing at

14 this agency, including Section 3(c)3, which says,

15 "When undertaking to formulate and implement

16 policies that have tribal implications, agencies

17 shall, in determining whether to establish federal

18 standards, consult with tribal officials as to the

19 need for the federal standards."

20 So even before we began sending out drafts

21 of proposed rules, et cetera, we need to be talking

22 to you about whether those standards are needed and

23 what we should do, looking for alternatives for

24 those standards. So that's what we are doing here

25 with this Notice of Inquiry.

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1 The Notice of Inquiry, it's a tool used by

2 many other federal agencies. I have never seen it

3 used in Indian country per se, but it's used by the

4 FCC, Copyright Office, Library of Congress. A

5 variety of different agencies use this as a tool to

6 reach out into their constituents and say, hey, this

7 is an issue that we are hearing about, what do you

8 think. So even before they begin drafting policy or

9 changing policy, they send this notice out so that

10 they can get feedback from the people who are

11 affected by these changes. So that's what we are

12 doing with this Notice of Inquiry.

13 We have been asked three primary

14 questions: The what, when, and how. The what is

15 what regulations do we need to look at revising,

16 implementing, repealing. When, in what order, so

17 what priority level do these regulations need to be

18 addressed in.

19 And then finally how. A Tribal Advisory

20 Committee, a notice of proposed rulemaking and

21 written comment period sufficient. We have heard

22 negotiated rulemaking. We have heard a variety of

23 different ways to get this accomplished, and we

24 really are looking for guidance from you, from

25 Indian country, to tell us how, what's the best way

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1 to go about doing this.

2 Given our time constraints we have, the

3 chairwoman has about two and a half years left in

4 office, Vice Chair Steffani Cochran has about two

5 years left, and Dan has a little over two and a half

6 years left. So we are operating in a very short

7 timeframe, and we are trying to do the most that we

8 can, the best way that we can, so that we can help

9 improve the industry.

10 So this is our road show. The chairwoman

11 keeps offering to get us to wear T-shirts, like

12 Velcro in, but it's an HO road tour. This is our

13 last stop before we go back to DC, and then next

14 Monday we will have a hearing at the Department of

15 Interior. Secretary Salazar has committed to coming

16 and speaking to the group.

17 And then from there we go back out into

18 the Great Plains, to Rapid City, and finally into

19 Seminole country down in Hollywood. The last date

20 of the consultations is February 3rd.

21 So we published the Notice of Inquiry in

22 the Federal Register. We made the announcement the

23 week of November 18th. The comment period closes on

24 February 12th. This is a week after the last

25 consultation period. It's an 86 day comment period.

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1 All written comments and consultations, transcripts,

2 will be posted on the website at nigc.gov. Mr. Mark

3 Gaston over there, he helped sign you guys in. He

4 is the man that's putting all this stuff up. As

5 fast as I get it, they put it up.

6 So if you go to that website, nigc.gov,

7 and you click the tribal consultation button on the

8 left-hand side, another button called regulatory

9 review pops up. When you hit that, all this

10 information -- all the transcripts, all comments

11 received, all agency materials, the Federal Register

12 notices, your tribal leader letters, the transcripts

13 of these hearings, everything will be posted on

14 there.

15 One of the commitments by the commission

16 has been to follow President Obama's mandate, which

17 is to be open, accountable, transparent in the

18 decision-making that we do. So we want to make sure

19 that any information we receive, you know what it

20 is, and it's open and accessible. And so Mark puts

21 it on the website. And if you can't find something,

22 get ahold of me, and I will get ahold of Mark, and

23 we will work it out.

24 Once again to reiterate what Commissioner

25 Little said, these are suggestions only. What you

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1 see in the Notice of Inquiry are topic areas that we

2 heard from our staff, we heard from consultations

3 over the summer. We heard from, you know, years

4 back. Some of these are not new. Some of them are

5 a little bit newer or just kind of percolating to

6 the top. But we wanted to address the issues that

7 we heard the most about.

8 These are suggestions only. We haven't

9 set an agenda. We are going to wait to do that

10 until we have gone through these consultations and

11 have received all the comments in, and from that

12 point we will set the agenda. So, again,

13 suggestions only, just designed to stimulate some

14 conversation and see what your position is on them.

15 So just walking very briefly through the

16 Notice of Inquiry, you should have all received the

17 handout with the Federal Register notice and then

18 the PowerPoint. It contains some comments or some

19 summaries of definitions of net revenue. Management

20 contracts have been a very controversial issue, how

21 we change revised definitions.

22 The fee section, you know, there's a

23 couple of issues, some bigger than others. So, for

24 example, changing the calculation of fees from a

25 calendar year to the fiscal year. Our finance and

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1 audit departments indicate that one of the main

2 audit findings, one of the issues that comes up the

3 most is the fact that the calculation, the

4 regulation says that you do it on a calendar year,

5 but, you know, I worked for six and a half years in

6 a tribe, and I know we had a fiscal year, so it's

7 different, so perhaps changing that.

8 Using industry standards for various

9 definitions, and a late payment system for late fee

10 submittals, and a little bit of notice of violation.

11 That one has been very popular. People really like

12 that idea.

13 The self-regulation regulation, we have

14 heard a lot of comment about this, that the burden

15 of the application doesn't meet sort of the benefits

16 that you are supposed to achieve when you get the

17 self-regulation certificate. We have only got two

18 tribes that have done that, so is there a way that

19 we can make the benefit of obtaining the

20 certificate, make it more of a benefit so tribes

21 have more incentive to do that.

22 Management contracts, again this is

23 something that we hear about over and over again in

24 our offices and as we have gone out on

25 consultations.

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1 Proceedings before the commission. If you

2 are an attorney, if you are a representative of a

3 tribe, you know that there is a significant void in

4 the description of what happens when you appeal

5 something to the commission with timeframes, what

6 sort of process is there, so you know so your issue

7 isn't sitting out there in this void until someone

8 decides to look at it. So we have been asking,

9 again, you know, should these regulations contain a

10 more detailed process so that tribes know, if there

11 is an issue that comes before the commission, what

12 the process is going to be and how long it's going

13 to take.

14 One of the issues, the issue that's gotten

15 the most press, one of the things we have heard

16 about for the past several years is the MICS, Class

17 II, Class III MICS and the technical standards.

18 Following the CRIT decision, the Colorado River

19 Indian Decision that said IGRA does not give the

20 NIGC the authority to enforce or promulgate

21 regulations, the Class III regulations, we are sort

22 of in a dilemma as to what to do with those

23 regulations that are currently on the books. Do we

24 repeal them? What about those tribes that have

25 included Class III MICS, the NIGC's Class III MICS

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1 in their compacts or their ordinances and have given

2 the NIGC enforcement authority. There is that issue

3 that we need to deal with.

4 Additionally we have a current draft of

5 Class II MICS in draft form, because there had been

6 a Tribal Advisory Committee over the past couple of

7 years that had been working on that. And then the

8 technical standards that were adopted in 2008, we

9 are already hearing there needs to be some

10 revisions, some updates to those. So that has been

11 a big, big topic of conversation.

12 But, you know, just to reiterate, there

13 are other things that need to be addressed as well,

14 and we want to make sure we take a really

15 comprehensive look at all the regulations that may

16 need to be addressed.

17 The pilot program for background

18 investigations for licensing. It's a program that

19 has been around for ten plus years, and we are

20 considering formalizing that to regulation, so it's

21 not these MLAs that we have with tribes, but it's an

22 actual regulation.

23 Allowing for access to the NIGC for

24 fingerprinting, also something that's come up.

25 Facility licensing, we have heard quite a bit about

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1 this particular regulation and whether or not it

2 needs to be opened back up and reviewed again.

3 Access and inspection to records that are

4 housed off-site. For example, a management company

5 might have some records, tribal records, financial

6 documents at their facility that perhaps they are

7 not willing to give to the tribe. This sort of

8 regulation would reinforce the NIGC's authority to

9 subpoena those records on behalf of the tribe or for

10 the NIGC.

11 Enforcement proceedings, we have heard a

12 lot about this as well, and more than just whether

13 or not the chair should have discretion to withdraw

14 an NOV. We have also heard comments at a couple of

15 the consultations we have gone to that say that the

16 enforcement proceedings need to be clarified, that

17 there should be some documentation about what the

18 NIGC has done to work with tribes to ensure

19 compliance before issuing an enforcement action.

20 That's another thing that's come to the top.

21 So those are regulations that we have

22 currently. The NOI also discusses some potential

23 new regulations as possibilities. Those include

24 putting into regulation form a policy, form a Tribal

25 Advisory Committee or a formalized method for

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1 obtaining comments from tribes when drafting a

2 regulation.

3 Now, some of you may be familiar with the

4 last Tribal Advisory Committee. That was a very

5 controversial system of selection of handling the

6 meetings. We continue to hear about that particular

7 committee and how it worked or didn't work given

8 your sort of perception. So we need to -- if we do

9 this Tribal Advisory Committee, we need to figure

10 out a way to bring in adequate representation of

11 regions, size of facilities, class of gaming and

12 make sure that everyone's voice is at the table so

13 that tribes really do feel like these committees can

14 produce a good document, but that's a potential for

15 regulation.

16 Sole proprietary interest, we are hearing

17 lots of this in DC. In DC we get a lot of requests

18 from tribes for the agency to issue an opinion on

19 whether or not their agreement, agreements violate

20 the sole proprietary interests provisions of IGRA.

21 It was brought out in San Diego, that in addition to

22 that, we should consider defining what the primary

23 beneficiary is, what does primary beneficiary

24 actually mean, so this is something that could be

25 put into regulation form as well.

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1 Communication policy, how do we

2 communicate with you? You know, oftentimes our

3 information -- I worked in a tribe as an in-house

4 counsel for six and a half years, and I know that

5 tribal leaders receive stacks and stacks of paper,

6 and a lot of times that paper can get lost. And so

7 we want to make sure that the information that needs

8 to get to tribal leadership gets to tribal

9 leadership, that the information that needs to get

10 to the gaming commission gets there, that everyone

11 is receiving all the information that is necessary

12 for you to understand, to know what we are doing and

13 that we are communicating well with you.

14 It's sticky. We are trying to figure out

15 a good way to do it this go around. We weren't

16 joking -- a little Pony Express, smoke signal, a

17 little snail mail, row it over by canoe. Whatever

18 we need to do to get you guys the information,

19 that's what we are really trying to do. We want to

20 utilize our website more effectively, to use it as a

21 communication device, but this is a policy that we

22 are thinking about in order to make sure that our

23 communication with you is done the best way

24 possible.

25 Buy Indian Act, I saw Mr. Van Norman walk

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1 into the room, and I know that NIGA has an

2 initiative where gaming facilities buy Indian from

3 each other. So you buy native products, and in the

4 procurement realm in federal contracting, when we

5 buy, when this agency buys things, like we buy space

6 at a facility, we want to do that -- you know, we

7 believe that we should be buying Indian, that we

8 should be in Indian owned facilities, so to

9 formalize this in the form of a regulation.

10 So, once again, these are suggestions

11 only. This isn't anything that's been set in stone

12 by any means, and we do want to hear your thoughts

13 on these and others. The list that I put up here is

14 not the end of the universe. The Notice of Inquiry

15 contains the list of the rest of the regulations,

16 and if you have any thoughts about those as well,

17 please do comment on them.

18 So what we are looking for from tribes for

19 guidance on is what regulations to look at, what

20 order of priority, which ones are the most

21 important, which ones are sort of low hanging fruit,

22 and then by what method. One of my concerns is that

23 we don't get bogged down in just dealing with the

24 MICS. I think we have been bogged down dealing with

25 the MICS the past several years, and I have heard

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1 numerous comments, that while we were busy focusing

2 on the MICS, other things went through that kind of

3 fell down in the process, like the implementation of

4 the facility licensing regulations. We have heard a

5 number of concerns that that wasn't done -- there

6 was not proper consultation.

7 So we don't want to do that. We don't

8 want to be so focused on the MICS that we don't deal

9 with the rest of the issues that have come forward

10 and do them in a good way as well.

11 So once again, consultation. The

12 consultation executive order, another section that

13 we have sort of hung onto here is Section 3(c)2 that

14 says that agencies shall, where possible, defer to

15 Indian tribes to establish standards. So this is

16 something that we hope that tribes will look at and

17 think about. If you have an alternative, if you

18 have some standards to offer us that you think would

19 be suitable to make changes to a regulation, we

20 would love to hear them. We would love to take a

21 look at those. And if we can, like the order says,

22 that we will defer to your standards in place of

23 ours. So if we can do that, that's going to be a

24 very positive thing, I think.

25 So logistically, the comment period,

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1 again, closes February 12th. You can e-mail, you

2 can fax, you can hand me a packet here today. I

3 will scan it in and get it up next week. Mark and

4 his cohort, Mavis, they get all this stuff up. I

5 have already gotten one transcript, and that will be

6 up probably in the next day or two. As they come in

7 and we fix them up, they are going to be up on the

8 website. So you will be able to see what everyone

9 else has said at prior meetings.

10 Again, send comments to

11 reg.review@nigc.gov. And this is a commitment from

12 the commission, and it's a commitment from myself.

13 Every single comment received will be reviewed and

14 will be considered. We are going to give

15 significant thought to everything that we receive

16 from tribes.

17 The regulatory review agenda, when it

18 comes out in April, likely around NIGA, it will be

19 accompanied with an explanation for why we made

20 these decisions. It will say, tribes, this was the

21 highest priority and the most tribes thought it was

22 the biggest issue, and so we went this way. If we

23 do disagree with what tribes suggest, then we will

24 explain why we disagreed and why we went a different

25 way, so our decision-making process is open and

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1 transparent to you.

2 The agenda will be finalized in April, by

3 the beginning of April, and then that's when the

4 substantive work begins. That's when we begin

5 actually looking at the regulations and going line

6 by line and looking at what needs to be revised.

7 That's going to be quite a process, but it's

8 something, again, that the commission is committed

9 to. We will be out in Indian country. We will be

10 on the road and doing as much as we need to do in

11 order to get as much accomplished as we can.

12 So the consultation format, they are being

13 recorded and transcribed. If you speak, please

14 speak into the microphone, and if you see me waving

15 at you, that means stop, grab a microphone, repeat

16 your name. Please say the organization and the

17 tribe that you represent so that we can get it on

18 the record.

19 Let's see, I think that's it. There are a

20 couple more seats at the table, so if there are

21 tribal leaders or gaming commissioners, if you are

22 interested in sitting up at the table, there's a

23 couple over here and some more back there. There is

24 a standing mike sort of directly in front of me, so

25 if you are in the back and you want to make a

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1 comment, please come to that mike, and again, state

2 your name and who you represent and what

3 organization you are with.

4 And with that, we will begin. I will turn

5 the mike back over to the chairwoman to turn it over

6 to you.

7 CHAIR STEVENS: Thank you, Lael.

8 And I want to reiterate, again, that this

9 is not the universe. We are open to anything. It's

10 just a brief overview of what was published in the

11 Notice of Inquiry and an explanation of why we chose

12 that method of a Notice of Inquiry. I appreciate

13 you all sitting and listening to us so we could sort

14 of get our talking out of the way and let you know

15 what we had hoped for in this meeting or what our

16 intention is in this meeting.

17 But the rest of the time -- I know tribal

18 leaders have very busy schedules, and it's meant for

19 you as tribal leaders to tell us what your

20 priorities are in whatever way that you need to.

21 That's for you to decide.

22 I would like to defer to tribal leaders or

23 whomever the tribal leader designates to speak for

24 their tribe first and elders as well.

25 So with that, thank you for listening, and

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1 it's not meant just for comments. If you have

2 questions or you need us to clarify something, we

3 are happy to answer when necessary. So with that,

4 we open the floor for comments. The floor is open.

5 Yes, sir, right here to my right.

6 MR. PETER GARCIA, JR.: Hello, good

7 morning, everyone. NIGC commissioners and everyone

8 else from the NIGC, tribal leaders, gaming

9 commission people, we are from Ohkay Owingeh. My

10 name is Peter Garcia, Jr. I am a council member and

11 also the executive director for Ohkay Owingeh Gaming

12 Commission. And to my right is our tribal sheriff,

13 and we also have -- his name is Ben Lujan. We also

14 have Howie Aguino. He is with the gaming

15 commission, and we also have Matt Pino who is also

16 with the gaming commission.

17 So we have a few issues that we want to

18 address. One is, I guess, what you talked about,

19 the advisory committee. I think in our opinion that

20 was one of the worst committees that I have ever

21 seen in place, because it was a one-sided situation.

22 No matter what comments tribes brought out, the NIGC

23 side, they made the ruling on what they wanted. It

24 didn't matter on the comments that tribes made. So

25 I think that any committee like that should not be

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1 in place.

2 But I think that committees can work if

3 you set them up like regionally, because like things

4 like the association that we have in New Mexico with

5 the gaming commissions, we deal with a lot of those,

6 and we have addressed a lot of the proposed

7 regulations that came out. But, you know, sometimes

8 we didn't succeed to what we needed or what we

9 wanted, so that has to change. But I think that if

10 you set them up in a way where we can work with the

11 regional offices and throughout the nation, it has a

12 chance to work.

13 And a lot of times we send comments, but

14 we don't even know if anybody reads them or we don't

15 know who is doing the review on them. For the last

16 six, seven years, the NIGC has done consultations.

17 Every year, we have submitted issues and concerns.

18 To this day, we have not received anything on the

19 comments or issues that we have addressed.

20 So what does that tell us? We have no

21 confidence in the commission, because nobody will

22 tell us what's going on or what they are saying

23 about our comments. The only person that really

24 answers anything that we address is from the

25 regional office, Ken Billingsley. And so whenever

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1 we need -- by the way, he is walking in.

2 So from Ohkay Owingeh's standpoint, we

3 trust Ken more than anybody else in the gaming

4 commission, because he tells us like it is, whether

5 we are doing something bad or whether we are doing

6 something good, and he always has recommendations.

7 And that's what I would like to see from the

8 commission also. And it's hard to deal with, you

9 know, the gaming commission because of those

10 reasons.

11 And so, you know, the advisory committee,

12 I think that we need to look at that very closely,

13 because it didn't work the way it was set up.

14 On some of proposed regulations also, you

15 know, we need to understand why there's proposed

16 changes. Sometimes we just get information saying

17 that there's a proposed MICS comment, but we don't

18 understand why that regulation is being changed.

19 There should be an understanding of why it's changed

20 or who proposed it. We don't even know who is

21 proposing the change or whether it should be changed

22 or not or whether it works for the tribes or not.

23 That's what should be looked at.

24 And so I think those are a couple of

25 things that we really need to look at. So we need

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1 to understand from both sides why things are

2 happening, so that would help our part anyway. And

3 sometimes, you know, we do everything generally, but

4 the tribes also need your special attention

5 pertaining to the particular tribes that want to

6 address certain things.

7 And the other issue that I have is that

8 the NIGC -- well, IGRA was adopted and put in place

9 to make sure that Indian gaming is conducted

10 properly, but the one thing I see is that when NIGC

11 was in place, they didn't particularly look at the

12 tribal state compacts. Because I feel in our

13 compacts that we have in the State of New Mexico,

14 it's not a fair business compact. Whoever looked at

15 the ordinances that we submitted to NIGC, they

16 should have contacted us also. And, you know, I

17 think that it may be a fault of different people --

18 attorneys, tribal leaders -- because we can't have

19 reduced or give free rooms for lodging, free meals,

20 or reduced prices. The same thing with alcohol.

21 But yet you go down the road, every

22 establishment that deals with lodging, they give

23 free rooms. The same thing with alcohol. They are

24 always giving free alcohol or reduced prices. The

25 same thing with food. So that's one issue.

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1 The other is, you know, we have to pay our

2 districts where we live in to prosecute anybody.

3 That should have been caught also by our attorneys

4 or by NIGC when they reviewed the ordinances, and I

5 think something should be put in place by NIGC maybe

6 to assist tribes in getting prosecutions instead of

7 us trying to pay somebody else. Because you go down

8 the road, somebody steals a car, does a car dealer

9 have to pay to get somebody prosecuted? No. But

10 yet we have to pay to get somebody prosecuted, and

11 that's not fair either. So I think that's

12 something, like that needs to be looked at so that

13 you can help the tribes, because it's not fair

14 either.

15 So those are a few things, but we did put

16 a letter together, and it has some comments in

17 there. And also, the other person I forgot to

18 mention, he is our gaming commission attorney. He

19 works for Chestnut Law Offices. That's Joe

20 Tennorio. He has been very helpful in doing things

21 for us, but we are submitting a letter coming from

22 our governor. We will also submit more comments

23 based on what you have presented here.

24 But I think that I want to comment and

25 thank you for trying to work with tribes. I have

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1 been here ten years, and I have never once really

2 spoken to the commissioners like I have done with

3 you people here. And so I want to thank you for

4 trying to work with the tribes and Ohkay Owingeh

5 also. Thank you for coming out and listening to us,

6 but we do have some personal things that need

7 tending to, so I wish you would consider those

8 things also. But I know that we have worked very

9 closely with the regional office, and we will

10 continue to do that.

11 One other thing I remember now, certain

12 regulations that have to be amended, and we already

13 have our ordinances approved, and if we need to

14 change those things, do we have to send our whole

15 ordinance or do we just need to submit a section

16 that needs to be changed or amended with

17 explanations? Because it does take a long time by

18 the time we change or amend whatever is in the

19 ordinance, then we have to submit it to our tribal

20 council for approval, and then it's sent to NIGC.

21 And that's the other part, that it takes forever for

22 NIGC to send if it's approved or not.

23 I remember the last time we amended, it

24 took like four months, and then by chance Ken was

25 there at our office, and I was telling him about how

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1 long does it take for the commission to approve an

2 ordinance, so he said, well, let me give them a

3 call. He called DC, and that very next day we

4 received our ordinance. So I thank Ken for helping

5 us out.

6 So those are things that need to be looked

7 at also, that when you send something, you need to

8 get it as soon as possible.

9 Thank you for listening.

10 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Can I ask you a question?

11 MR. GARCIA: Sure.

12 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Your first comment when

13 you were talking about comments that you sent to the

14 commission, and you don't even know where the black

15 hole is where they went to, what would be helpful

16 for us, how can we communicate to you that we

17 received it, that we are considering it? Would a

18 letter going back out, would that be sufficient?

19 I know everything we are receiving in this

20 process goes up on the internet. And we have heard

21 this before. We have heard that we sent in our

22 letters, and we don't know where they are, and we

23 don't know where they are, frankly.

24 MR. GARCIA: That's just like my socks. I

25 can't find them.

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1 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Well, probably they are

2 with your socks and we will find them on the other

3 side, but posting it on the internet, at least, does

4 that help you?

5 MR. GARCIA: Well, in part it does, but we

6 don't know when that goes out either. But the one

7 thing that we have found, we have a very good

8 communication relationship with the regional office,

9 and that's dealing with Ken, Emily, and everybody

10 else that works there, is through the e-mail

11 process. And this way, if we knew what everyone is

12 sending out, if we knew the contact person, that

13 helps a lot. If you don't know the contact person,

14 then it gets lost.

15 MS. ECHO-HAWK: So something like an

16 e-mail or a response letter that says thank you for

17 your comments. We received them. If you have

18 questions and you haven't heard from us, here is so

19 and so you can talk to?

20 MR. GARCIA: Well, you could develop, I

21 guess, a contact list also for certain -- you could

22 list certain things. Say, for the chairperson, this

23 is what you need to contact her for, for legal

24 things we need to contact you, and for other things

25 we can contact regional offices, and that would

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1 help. That way we always know who to send things

2 to.

3 And then phone numbers. Just like you

4 asked us for information of our tribe, you asked for

5 tribal leaders, gaming commissioners, directors, who

6 the casino managers and different people are, it

7 would help if we had those from NIGC also.

8 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Thank you. Those are good

9 suggestions. I appreciate it.

10 CHAIR STEVENS: And I do want to say thank

11 you very much, Ohkay Owingeh, for your comments. A

12 couple of things, I appreciate, I really do

13 appreciate the suggestions. And, you know, not only

14 are we looking for priorities, but the fact that you

15 are offering us ideas and some suggestions that

16 would work for you. On committees, that's very

17 helpful to look back -- you know, we know this is a

18 new commission, and it's helpful to look back at our

19 history of the agency, whether we were here or not,

20 and say, okay, what worked and what didn't work, and

21 we appreciate your bringing that to our attention.

22 And, more importantly, we appreciate your

23 ideas and suggestions on how we might address

24 committees, and we know that we all come from Indian

25 country, and many of us spent a lot of time sitting

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1 in the audience in these meetings with the previous

2 commission, and we empathize and understand the

3 frustrations that happened with committees and also

4 with the communication flow. Where I come from,

5 it's like screaming into the tide -- hello. I think

6 the socks and some comments are having a party

7 somewhere without us.

8 MR. GARCIA: Probably.

9 CHAIR STEVENS: And to address that, you

10 know, I am a bit of a bull whip at the agency as

11 many of you know. Lael worked with me for six and a

12 half years. She's like, yep.

13 Processes that should work for everybody.

14 Having come from the Department of Interior, they

15 have what's called a surname process -- all

16 correspondence, all correspondence has response

17 times. There is a whole system in place for

18 response times to correspondence. Whether it's

19 e-mails, whether it's faxes, whether it's snail mail

20 letters, there is some process that should be

21 established that we are working on, frankly. You

22 shouldn't be wondering what happened to your letter,

23 and what happened to your ordinance.

24 By regulation, we have 90 days, not four

25 months, 90 days, and being the bull whip I am, I am

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1 on top of general counsel's office. We have a new

2 general counsel, Larry Roberts, and his staff. I

3 don't want to see ordinances in front of me on the

4 89th day. That's ridiculous, and they know it.

5 We should be responsive to you. We work

6 for you, and we should be meeting our own deadlines

7 that we set. So I apologize that that didn't -- I

8 don't recall seeing your ordinance. It might have

9 been during the previous commission, but we are

10 striving to get those turned around, because you are

11 not the first person to say this to me. The

12 ordinance went off into oblivion and they didn't

13 hear anything back.

14 MR. GARCIA: That was the 2007 amendments

15 to the tribal state compacts, that we had to change

16 our ordinance because of the amended compact so that

17 took a while.

18 But one more thing I just remembered is

19 that in your Class II section in definitions, you

20 should be able to have a listing of all Class II

21 machines that are approved through NIGC.

22 CHAIR STEVENS: Okay. I want to thank you

23 for that suggestion. And the purpose of today is so

24 that we can hear from you, your concerns and your

25 priorities, so that we are not dropping the draft of

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1 a rule and have initiated a rulemaking process

2 without your input before we do that, and that's

3 what today is for, so that you are not blindsided

4 with a proposed rule and that you find out about it

5 later. You actually get to weigh in on how we do

6 this and which ones we are going to address first.

7 As many of you know, with regard to

8 compacts, the authorities under the act are divided

9 between the chairman of the NIGC and the Secretary

10 of the Interior. The Secretary of the Interior is

11 to approve compacts, revenue allocation plans, and

12 put land into trust. They do share that information

13 with us when they do make those decisions, but

14 really we don't have a place on the compacts,

15 although we do work with them very closely. And

16 certainly when they have questions about anything

17 that's in front of them, they often call us and say,

18 okay, what do you think. So we will certainly

19 communicate your concerns to the department and see

20 if there is some opportunity for us to be more

21 collaborative in that process with regard to

22 compacts.

23 So did the other commissioners have

24 anything?

25 COMMISSIONER LITTLE: I think I have. I

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1 guess I'm going to put a question to the audience.

2 I appreciate you bringing up the issue of the

3 advisory committees, because I think it's very

4 important, but I think maybe just to stimulate some

5 discussion, one of the concerns that was raised

6 during the last process was that different segments

7 of the industry, meaning Class II, Class III, were

8 not fully represented there. And I know a lot of

9 times we look at advisory committees and we try to

10 establish them by regions.

11 Does anybody have any comments or

12 suggestions on how we can make sure that regional

13 interests are represented but also different types

14 of industry folks are represented? So I do

15 appreciate your comment, and I'm not asking for

16 anybody to stand up right now, but maybe as we get

17 along through the process, if anyone wants to

18 discuss that, I would be interested in hearing more

19 about that. So thank you.

20 CHAIR STEVENS: So the floor is open. I

21 know sometimes tribal leaders have very pressed

22 schedules. We have seen folks coming in with

23 prepared statements, so we certainly welcome

24 comments.

25 Yes, sir.

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1 MR. TOM WILSON: Hi, my name is Tom

2 Wilson. I am representing the Pascua Yaqui Tribe.

3 I am the executive director of the tribal gaming

4 office, and on behalf of our chairman, I appreciate

5 the opportunity to be here and express our concerns

6 and thoughts about what the NIGC is doing and what

7 direction that you are moving.

8 I would like to sort of make an initial

9 statement if I could, but one of the things that we

10 believe the NIGC could benefit from, especially in

11 looking at regulatory reform, particularly

12 pertaining to the MICS, is that we look at things

13 from a risk base. Meaning that we don't just create

14 regulations for the sake of creating regulations,

15 but rather we first look at what is the risk that we

16 are trying to mitigate or reduce, and then that

17 becomes the basis for formulating regulatory

18 measures that make sense and are practical, but more

19 important, are meaningful and actionable by the

20 tribes, the tribal gaming casinos, and the

21 regulatory authorities.

22 We think that in the MICS, that this

23 initially was missed, that when you look and read

24 through the MICS, nothing really tells you what is

25 the risk that's trying to be mitigated. So

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1 oftentimes you are left discussing the regulatory

2 effect, but not really understanding the why, why

3 that particular regulation, rule, or requirement was

4 put in place.

5 It's our belief that if you take a risk

6 based approach, that you will challenge yourself in

7 determining does this control really even make

8 sense. Oftentimes controls are put in place, but

9 they don't make sense, and we end up over

10 controlling, or in some cases under controlling,

11 because we didn't identify the risk that we are

12 trying to mitigate.

13 Indian gaming is probably the most

14 regulated gaming on the planet. All tribes are

15 dealt with three levels. We have NIGC, of course.

16 We have state compacts. We have tribal gaming

17 offices, tribal councils, and our belief is that in

18 some ways, gaming is over regulated. And one of the

19 things that we would hope the NIGC would consider

20 when they are looking at regulation is from that

21 perspective, are we, in fact, over regulating the

22 industry.

23 Madam Chairwoman, I believe last year --

24 it may have been at your confirmation hearing or at

25 a separate hearing where Senator McCain was

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1 discussing about the CRIT decision, and

2 unfortunately one of the comments that he made --

3 and coming from Arizona, I felt bad about this -- is

4 that he felt that Indian gaming wasn't regulated

5 enough. I don't know how anybody could come to that

6 conclusion. I believe also that our state director

7 of gaming, Mark Renovich was there.

8 The concern that we had with that is that

9 we would prefer to have seen a tribal gaming office

10 brought up as a model of self regulation as opposed

11 to a state gaming agency being brought forward and

12 commenting on how to effectively regulate. For us,

13 it gets down to constantly the issue of tribal

14 sovereignty, and we believe that tribes can best

15 regulate when they regulate themselves. And

16 consequently, we don't feel as though tribes are

17 held at a high enough level when Indian gaming is

18 being discussed to show that we, in fact, know how

19 to regulate ourselves, and that we are capable of

20 doing these things in place of federal regulation

21 and state regulation.

22 With regard to the MICS, our feeling is

23 that most tribes and compacts adopted the MICS, we

24 feel that they were designed to be a framework, a

25 foundational element, but not to really be adopted

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1 just wholeheartedly. And because of the general

2 nature of MICS and the fact that they were designed

3 to apply across the country to a broad range of

4 casinos and operations, frankly they are not very

5 well defined. They are not very well written.

6 Definitions are not clear in the MICS. And we find

7 ourselves constantly discussing between the NIGC,

8 our state compact, our tribal gaming office, and

9 even our casino management, trying to determine the

10 interpretation of the meaning of the MICS.

11 Now, our tribe is pursuing this year an

12 avenue, of course, to create our own regulations,

13 and that will have its own set of problems with it

14 as well. In the current MICS, you know, we are

15 allowed to create regulations that don't require

16 approval of NIGC or the state gaming agency as long

17 as those regulations that we create do not have any

18 less control than the MICS.

19 The problem with that wording is how do

20 you define "less control." From my perspective I am

21 looking at mitigating risk, and that's the approach

22 that we are going to take as we create regulatory

23 reform in our own tribe. However, the issue that

24 comes to play is certain wording -- and I will give

25 you an example that I am fond of using -- but in the

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1 MICS they are talking about surveillance. One of

2 the items discussed is that all surveillance

3 activity must be logged. Well, anything less than

4 all is less of a control than all. And yet we can

5 argue what does all mean, and I think we would agree

6 that the fact is, what are the risks that we are

7 trying to mitigate in surveillance activity.

8 Talk to any casino operations and folks

9 that work in the casino and the gaming industry,

10 they are able to reiterate the various risks that

11 are out there, and the things that we are trying to

12 eliminate or watch for in a surveillance activity.

13 So when you have ambiguous wording like "all," it

14 simply creates additional confusion, because I am

15 prepared that we probably are going to have to argue

16 not so much with NIGC, but perhaps with the state,

17 that in our particular state, our history with the

18 regulatory agency is that they will take the literal

19 meaning, that all means all and anything less than

20 that would be less of a control.

21 I believe that we can make the case from a

22 risk standpoint, that all shouldn't be all and that

23 there are certain things that absolutely should be

24 recorded and logged, but maybe not everything.

25 So that's just an example of some of this

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1 ambiguous wording in the MICS that creates such a

2 struggle for every tribe that I have talked to and

3 that I work with. This language is just too vague.

4 And we support 100 percent the NIGC's

5 thinking that perhaps the MICS should become just a

6 recommendation and not a regulatory standpoint. We

7 believe that that supports the fact that tribes

8 should be encouraged to develop their own

9 regulations and MICS in this regard. And it's our

10 belief that as Indian gaming evolved for the sake of

11 expediency, most tribes and even states just adopted

12 the MICS outright without really giving a lot of

13 thought to making those regulations better.

14 And one of the problems that we see is

15 even the term minimum internal control. It implies

16 some type of standard that as long you are meeting

17 the minimum, then that is sufficient. Now, of

18 course, the controls always, you know, state that

19 you can go beyond those controls. We think that the

20 term minimum probably should be stricken from the

21 vocabulary and consequently these are just

22 recommended controls that you should have in place.

23 Whether they are the minimum or not really doesn't

24 matter. What matters is that certain controls are

25 in place.

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1 So we would advocate that that term

2 minimum has probably created more problems for us,

3 because we do fine with our own casino management,

4 the fact that our state compact and even our tribal

5 ordinance adopted the MICS outright, that for us as

6 a regulator, it sort of has set a standard that as

7 long as they are meeting the minimum, then that's

8 all that they really have to do. So we feel that

9 that has created a bit of a problem as well.

10 The other issue, of course, that we have

11 with tribal state compact is that because in our

12 state of Arizona, the fact that they adopted the

13 MICS basically 100 percent as the appending page to

14 our compact, if the NIGC changes those to a

15 recommendation, we don't think that would probably

16 have any impact on us from the compact standpoint,

17 because we have already agreed that those are the

18 minimum control standards. So for us, the only way

19 to really address this issue is by self regulation

20 and moving forward on that front, because under our

21 compact and under the MICS, of course, as long as we

22 adopt controls that are equal to or greater than the

23 MICS, then those indeed become the overriding

24 regulatory rules that have to be abided by by both

25 the state and, of course, our management in the

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1 casino.

2 I guess the last comment that I want to

3 make with regard to internal controls and casinos is

4 that, you know, the majority of all Indian gaming,

5 maybe all Indian gaming facilities are run by

6 professional management people in the industry who

7 have spent many years in the gaming industry. If I

8 work in the state of Nevada where gaming, of course,

9 began and many things were modeled after, if I want

10 to go to work in a casino, I can go to the sheriff's

11 department and get a gaming permit. It virtually is

12 a 20 minute process, and I can go to work in a

13 casino.

14 In Indian gaming, of course, we have to go

15 through a much more extensive licensing process,

16 much more burdensome than in private industry

17 whatsoever. And given the concern of organized

18 crime in private industry, it seems odd to me that

19 in Indian gaming our level of regulation would be so

20 much stricter than it is in the private industry.

21 But the most important comment that I

22 think is made to me from casino management is that

23 if that casino in the Indian gaming facility were a

24 standalone facility, they would not operate it any

25 different whether it was Indian gaming or not,

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1 meaning that in the industry, it's understood the

2 level of controls, the things need to be in place to

3 protect the integrity of gaming.

4 So I think it's important that when you

5 look at regulations, you consider the fact that

6 sometimes over regulation can be a burdensome

7 problem for the tribes, and trying to mitigate -- we

8 have -- our compact is couple hundred pages and then

9 we have five appendices on top of that. Within

10 those appendices, they don't even agree with what

11 the appendices say, so we are constantly fighting

12 ourselves trying to interpret and argue points of

13 interpretation. So anything that can be done to

14 streamline that process to make words clearer -- our

15 words have meaning -- would be beneficial for us

16 from a regulatory standpoint. Thank you.

17 CHAIR STEVENS: Thank you, sir. I do have

18 a few follow-ups. I just want to mention you are

19 not the first person to -- there are others who

20 agree with you about the word "minimum," and that

21 these may not necessarily be the MICS but the

22 icks -- which sounds kind of funny. Does anyone

23 have kids that watch SpongeBob? SpongeBob gets the

24 icks. We have the icks. But you are not the only

25 one thinking that, and that's the great thing about

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1 these open conversations, because you realize other

2 people are thinking the same thing you are, and we

3 appreciate that.

4 And also there are other tribes, as you

5 know, in other states that have included in their

6 compact or by ordinance, but more specifically in

7 the compact, California, Oklahoma, you know, in

8 Arizona.

9 By the way, I didn't have any control over

10 who the panel was at that hearing. They have

11 different ideas about what the impact will be if the

12 internal control standards are not in regulation

13 form. We have heard quite vocally from some tribes

14 that if you do that, it's going to be a big problem

15 for them. And what I am hearing you say is that

16 it's not necessarily a big problem for the tribe you

17 represent. So just noting that difference in how it

18 might affect tribes, we will look to tribes when

19 there are differences of perspective on the effect

20 of regulations for some possible solutions,

21 solutions that we can come to together, mechanisms

22 that would address everybody's needs without leaving

23 anyone out, without weakening any systems.

24 So we appreciate your comments, and Vice

25 Chairwoman Cochran has a follow-up.

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1 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you. Thank you

2 for coming. I spent some time with the tribe this

3 summer, and you have an amazing facility, and you

4 also have a tremendous strong regulatory body. So

5 thank you for coming out this way. It's nice to see

6 you.

7 My question is -- I have two questions

8 actually. Your comments, when you are talking about

9 some of the definitions, were you talking about the

10 current MICS or the proposed MICS?

11 MR. WILSON: This would strictly be

12 relative to the current MICS.

13 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: And do you have any

14 thoughts that you could share with us on how we

15 might approach that, how the commission might

16 approach that? We have talked about the advisory

17 committees. A lot of work has been done. Do we

18 jump back in with advisory committees on the MICS or

19 do we pick up where we left off and find the things

20 that still remain in dispute? I am looking for your

21 thoughts. How might you approach it?

22 MR. WILSON: Well, I know that Pat Telcott

23 from our casino, Pat Telcott, I believe he was on

24 one of the advisory panels for the MICS, and one of

25 the issues that, you know, he would bring back from

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1 Washington on this is that the committee couldn't

2 even agree on what to agree on, so consequently they

3 spent an awful lot of time debating these same

4 issues themselves as part of the process.

5 But I really can't overemphasize that --

6 and so that you understand, my background is as an

7 auditor in private industry and working with

8 organizations on business process improvement and

9 things, and I can't overemphasize this risk based

10 approach. This is the approach that private

11 industry through Sarbanes-Oxley and SOX and

12 regulatory reform has taken that you really have to

13 identify the risk.

14 And I think rather than taking the

15 existing MICS and just looking at the words, it is

16 much more meaningful if you can identify that risk

17 first and then build from that. And I think it

18 eliminates a lot of discussion and disagreement,

19 maybe arguments and things, because if you can agree

20 on the risks, then it's easier to move forward and

21 agree on what controls should be in place to

22 mitigate those risks. It just seems to me that

23 that's what's lacking in the current process.

24 I believe from our own tribe regulatory

25 standpoint, that's how we operate, and it makes

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1 sense for us, it makes sense for management in the

2 casino, and we can collaborate much better when we

3 are doing that because it gets everybody on the same

4 page.

5 CHAIR STEVENS: Thank you. Was that the

6 last committee, the one, the Class III draft?

7 MR. WILSON: Yes.

8 CHAIR STEVENS: Because I was in the

9 peanut gallery for some of that from the beginning,

10 as was Lael and as was Dan. There could be a couple

11 of reasons why -- and I am just kind of thinking out

12 loud here -- why that committee didn't agree. It

13 could have been the makeup of the committee. You

14 take a step back from that, the makeup of the

15 committee was driven by a certain set of

16 qualifications that were established not by the

17 tribes, but by the agency. So it was very limited

18 in scope. And so that targeted certain people to be

19 on the committee that might come to the table with a

20 different perspective. So, you know, how the makeup

21 of the committee affects the outcome of the work and

22 also the committee and the way it functioned.

23 You know, I have done a few with the

24 Department of Interior. You set the ground rules

25 first, and you set your objectives first, and you

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1 all need to know what all your daily work together

2 is meant for. So, you know, there was a certain

3 agenda, and I don't know that the tribes really had

4 a say on what that agenda was or the rules of the

5 road basically. You should always know the rules of

6 the road when you get committees together, so you

7 know what to expect and what the outcome should be.

8 But also, you know, we are hearing that

9 there is a separate group, an advisory, tribal

10 advisory group that's working, an ad hoc committee

11 that's working separate and apart, and we are

12 hearing they are having differences. It depends,

13 again, on the makeup of the committee. Some want a

14 framework and just some base standards based on what

15 you are suggesting, and some want to get way down in

16 the weeds and the minutia and getting very

17 prescriptive, very, very detailed. So, you know,

18 there is the baseline and then the sort of the sub

19 how do you get to that standard.

20 Someone had said in Oklahoma, yes, we are

21 all for standards, but there should be standards,

22 and then how tribes get to those standards is left

23 to the tribe. And I see those two things seem to be

24 a problem now in any of the committees, depending on

25 who is sitting at the table, how detailed these

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1 should be, how prescriptive. The more prescriptive

2 they become, the more challenging they become to

3 implement.

4 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Will you be submitting

5 written comments?

6 MR. WILSON: Yes.

7 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Thank you. We appreciate

8 them written down, and I think the risk based

9 approach is -- I like that idea. And if you have

10 thoughts about how you put together a group of

11 people that is representative of everyone, those

12 thoughts, like Dan said, would be appreciated as

13 well.

14 CHAIR STEVENS: Other comments. Sir, yes.

15 MR. MICHAEL ORTIZ: Yes. I have a

16 comment, actually a couple of questions. My name is

17 Michael Ortiz, and I am the executive director for

18 San Felipe Pueblo Gaming Regulatory Commission.

19 First of all, I want to tell you all that you did

20 your homework. You touched on a lot of hot topics

21 that have been kind of at the forefront of a lot of

22 commissions.

23 I had a lot of questions and Lael kind of

24 answered a lot of them. I like what I see. I am

25 just waiting to see if it does follow through.

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1 We are currently looking at reviewing our

2 gaming ordinances. They are a little outdated.

3 There's a lot of things left out. Some things need

4 to change. So I am currently working on that for

5 the tribe and for the commission. What is the

6 review process when it comes to submittal to the

7 NIGC? Is it just a review and approval within that

8 90 day window, or is it -- I mean, how thorough is

9 the review? Do you comment back to the tribe

10 usually if you do see something that is in conflict

11 or something that does not sound correct? What is

12 the process?

13 CHAIR STEVENS: The process, we actually

14 have a regulation on that, but just generally

15 speaking, you submit your comment to us. We date

16 it. It goes to our general counsel's office, and

17 they have a checklist of requirements or issues that

18 we look to have addressed in the ordinances. And

19 I -- ultimately the chair approves or disapproves

20 those. So the whole file will eventually come up to

21 me.

22 And I can tell you I see, with the general

23 counsel's office, if there is something that's not

24 clear to them or if they have a question or if they

25 have a concern or something is missing, they get on

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1 the phone with whoever is in the contact information

2 in the submittal and sort it out. And so I have

3 seen that that's what we do. If there is any kind

4 of question, my expectation and our new general

5 counsel's expectation is that they are working with

6 the tribe towards approval, making it so that the

7 time it takes to turn these around is quicker.

8 But, you know, if you submit something to

9 our office, as I said, I am making sure that they

10 get out sooner than just, you know, on the 90th day.

11 Generally what we are looking for is what is

12 required in the act, and that spells out specific

13 things that need to be in your ordinances. Make

14 sure that there is nothing in your ordinance that's

15 contradictory to the act.

16 So if you have questions about submitting

17 an amended ordinance, you know, I can give you the

18 information for our general counsel's office or the

19 person, the staff attorney that would work with you,

20 with your area. Get some information in advance

21 before you submit so you know what you are aiming

22 for, and use the time that it takes to approve.

23 MR. ORTIZ: That would be great.

24 The second part of my question kind of

25 piggy-backs off what a lot of the commentary has

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1 been prior to me speaking. It is based on the

2 advisory committees. In the past, not with the

3 current commission but with the past commission, a

4 lot of times there were working groups and set with

5 a lot of different members for the MICS advisory

6 committee. A lot of suggestions were submitted, and

7 what happened is a lot of the gaming community here,

8 as far as commissions, felt like some of their

9 comments fell on deaf ears, and it was basically a

10 push on a personal agenda of one individual that had

11 little oversight or no oversight from the

12 commissioners in DC. I am talking about Joe Smith.

13 I mean, a lot of things have happened, you

14 know, and a lot of standards have been pushed that a

15 lot of tribes have had a lot of concerns about and a

16 lot of questions. I mean, we have even had numerous

17 training where Joe Smith has been involved in the

18 training and hard questions have been asked of him,

19 and he basically couldn't answer some of the

20 questions that were asked of him based on certain

21 stipulations in the MICS. So, I mean, that didn't

22 carry a lot of weight with a lot of the

23 commissioners, auditors, and individuals that were

24 within the training.

25 So just I like the proactive approach that

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1 you guys are taking instead of being reactive.

2 That's why I said, I mean, you all did your homework

3 when coming to this meeting, because there is a lot

4 of hot topics that you guys hit. I am looking

5 forward to, you know, working with the current

6 commission, and I look forward to seeing, you know,

7 everything develop the way that you guys addressed

8 in the first introduction, Ms. Stevens and Lael. I

9 appreciate the time that you have given us to have

10 this consultation, and thank you.

11 CHAIR STEVENS: Thank you, and I hope we

12 get some written comments from you. If you ever

13 have any questions, let us know.

14 Again, we are trying to be proactive, to

15 be respectful, because we serve you to meet the

16 administration's commitment to tribes. And also,

17 you know, I don't have -- we don't have that much

18 time. You know, I know the last chair, his three

19 year term lasted seven years. That may not be the

20 case here. And so I am assuming in two years, two

21 and a half years, we are out of here. And our basic

22 underlying philosophy, when we all met initially, is

23 that we are going to leave it better than we found

24 it. We need your help to tell us how does that

25 look, how does better look. So I appreciate your

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1 comments today.

2 What I would like to do if it's okay,

3 let's take a quick 15 minute break and come back

4 at -- I think it's 11:00. My time is a little

5 messed up now. 11:00. Freshen your coffee, stretch

6 your legs. We will be back at 11:00.

7 (A recess was taken.)

8 CHAIR STEVENS: We will get started again.

9 I know there were some tribes that may have some

10 comment now. If we can all take our seats, usher

11 some people in from outside.

12 Again, I will defer to tribal leadership

13 or their designees as they appoint.

14 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Once again, if you are a

15 tribal leader or gaming commissioner executive

16 director, we do have a couple of empty spaces at the

17 table if you would like to come forward.

18 CHAIR STEVENS: Do we have any others that

19 would like to make comment for the record? The

20 microphones are open. If you could step up to a

21 microphone or to the table.

22 You can't hear me? Is this better? I can

23 hear it from here. He says I'm too soft spoken. I

24 think Dan might disagree. We will have somebody fix

25 this microphone or the sound system in here so you

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1 all in the back can hear.

2 Okay. If there are any newcomers, I just

3 want to remind you, just let you know we are in an

4 open forum format. And if the words come to you,

5 please feel free to speak if you have questions, you

6 need any clarification.

7 MR. BILLINGSLEY: Come on. You guys are

8 always complaining to me. Get up here. Let's go.

9 CHAIR STEVENS: Yes, sir.

10 MR. DAVID GARCIA: First Lieutenant

11 Governor David Garcia from the Pueblo of Acoma.

12 First of all, let me say thank you very much for the

13 invitation. I do appreciate this.

14 It's been about maybe six years since I

15 have been out of the gaming industry but I'm very

16 familiar with all of the internal workings of the

17 National Indian Gaming Commission.

18 Just a couple of points I would like to

19 reiterate and then some questions. I know the

20 Pueblo of Acoma. Over the years we have had the

21 same concerns relative to the consultation process.

22 I know as a sitting chairman in the prior years, we

23 have always gone to NIGC with a written statement

24 about the needs and concerns relative to gaming.

25 However, I would like to reecho the statement made

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1 by Councilman Garcia from Ohkay Owingeh, and that we

2 have never gotten a written reply regarding all of

3 the written comments, that we have made comments,

4 too, regarding suggested recommended changes on

5 rulemaking. And so it is really the intent of NIGC

6 to solicit comments. Then I think it is in your

7 best interests to provide a written response back to

8 individual tribes regarding the various comments

9 made.

10 Having said that, again, I do appreciate

11 this opportunity. Let me just make some additional

12 comments here relative to looking at the net

13 revenues management fee. With the understanding

14 regarding net revenues, I guess maybe I would like

15 to get some clarity or what is NIGC's anticipated --

16 what is NIGC looking at regarding the management fee

17 concept, and why are there issues relative to

18 allowable costs regarding one of the required

19 comments?

20 Again, this goes to the validity of the

21 nature of the compacts that we have, particularly

22 within the State of New Mexico. And knowing that we

23 deal with the state gaming regulatory board, these

24 are some of the other concerns on that side with

25 regard to net revenue. So if I can get a clearer

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1 explanation of what is NIGC's intent with regard to

2 net revenues in management fees.

3 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Once again, just to

4 reiterate, these are just comments that we have

5 heard internally from our staff but also from

6 people, accounting offices and various tribes. So

7 this is nothing that we are wedded to, but it is an

8 issue that we have heard.

9 And in regard to the net revenues for

10 management fees, the thought was that instead of

11 using the current definition that they just comply

12 with the industry standards with the GAAP

13 definition, when it comes to allowable uses, the

14 thought was that if you define allowable uses in a

15 different way that incorporates, you know,

16 depreciation and those kind of things, then that

17 calculation ends up providing the tribe more money.

18 And so we just want to hear, you know, does that

19 make sense? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

20 There are concerns, you know, we have

21 heard concerns about what is the NIGC -- given the

22 NIGC's sort of history with the use of net gaming

23 revenue and the net gaming revenue, use of net

24 gaming revenue bulletin that's out there, concerns

25 that this might somehow permit NIGC to keep moving

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1 in that direction, and that is not the intent. The

2 intent of the net revenue questions section, the

3 questions here is not to define, you know, define

4 prescriptively what tribes have to do with that

5 money, but as a way perhaps to expand the pool of

6 money that you have to do -- you know, to create

7 government programs or whatever that it is. That

8 was the idea behind it. It may not work out that

9 way, and that's what we are looking for. We are

10 looking for some input on that.

11 MR. GARCIA: Based on the clarity for

12 looking at net revenues, I know in years past, the

13 discussion has also been coming up with a revenue

14 sharing plan or an allocation plan, and how does

15 that coincide with these issues.

16 The other that kind of strikes me as a

17 little odd, towards the, prior to the No. 2 issue on

18 management contracts, you have a statement there

19 that says whether the advisory committee should be

20 formed to make changes, and it alludes to, again,

21 the issue on cash flow. Is there a thought process

22 there with regard to a redefinition or defining the

23 term on procurement? I notice that you are

24 requesting comments regarding the Buy Indian Act.

25 There is really an uncertainty of clarity relative

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1 to that issue, so I am not sure if that's something,

2 that if there can be an expansion made on that

3 issue.

4 The reason why I am looking at some of

5 these issues is that the Pueblo of Acoma submitted

6 to NIGC an amendment on its gaming regulation

7 ordinance, and it's due to be approved within the

8 next couple of weeks. And I have concerns relative

9 to some of the proposed changes here or suggested

10 comments and how that impacts our proposed changes,

11 not knowing the understanding between management and

12 the commission, the regulatory side. So I am kind

13 of wanting to take a better look at those issues.

14 The other I do have relative to -- I know

15 there was a concern relative to the fingerprinting

16 process. However, again, I guess basically in

17 trying to determine a standard status quo with

18 regard to fingerprinting, I know that in IGRA it

19 does indicate that, it clearly defines in a broader

20 perspective primary management. But, I mean, this

21 statement here basically is the pueblo is flying

22 with this. Basically it reiterates what was

23 initiated, I guess, basically what was put in our

24 revised regulation for change. So, I mean, that to

25 me is basically something I think we are in

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1 agreement with.

2 But clearly again, you know, we have had

3 internal issues relative to this with regard to

4 clearly defining primary management or key

5 employees. Even with the state, when the state

6 comes in and does its annual audit, they have

7 questions about who do we, I guess, provide a

8 license to and fingerprint with regard to

9 management, primary management officials. So again,

10 this is again something the Pueblo of Acoma supports

11 with regard to this, because it's already in our

12 regulation anyway, our proposed change. I know that

13 was one thing that was brought to our attention.

14 In looking at the Tribal Advisory

15 Committee, I guess that it's already been said, the

16 working relationships between committees, whether

17 it's advisory, whether it's ad hoc, clearly there

18 should be a better definition, or in terms of that

19 process, a better framework of individuals in terms

20 of what the process should be. Because clearly I

21 think that we have overlapping boundaries in terms

22 of how to facilitate ad hoc versus an advisory

23 committee, in this case a tribal advisory committee.

24 I'm not aware if there is a current

25 standing committee at this point in time. It would

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1 help to identify probably who those are at that

2 point in time, so that there is potential for

3 changes. Then I think we should be aware of those

4 changes with regard to committee members.

5 Thank you.

6 CHAIR STEVENS: Thank you, sir.

7 I do want to say that there is no current

8 NIGC standing Tribal Advisory Committee. The last

9 one that was in place was under the previous

10 commission. That was the Class III MICS Advisory

11 Committee that we have heard comments about. There

12 is a separate working group that is working on its

13 own. It has nothing to do with the NIGC that's

14 looking at the MICS that I understand is going on,

15 but that's separate and apart and of their own

16 volition and made up of volunteers.

17 In terms of like the background

18 investigation and the fingerprints, you know, that

19 comes up in the context of tribes that want to

20 expand who they can submit for background, not that

21 we are asking to expand, but tribes are asking us if

22 they can have access or use the same process for

23 safe vendors.

24 Where that becomes a problem for us is

25 that we have a Memorandum of Understanding with the

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1 Department of Justice and FBI on who can be run

2 through those processes and then also the

3 consequences of running those individuals under our

4 scheme, and what records that that produces, and

5 just, you know, consequences of outcomes of those

6 investigations. There are certain things that

7 happen with key officials and primary management

8 officials, key employees of primary management

9 officials. You start adding into that list, you

10 know, how do we do it, and then what's the outcome,

11 what are the effects of that, and are there other

12 mechanisms that tribes can use if we are not able to

13 change that system.

14 We are bound by our agreement with the

15 FBI, and we will be talking to them. I think our

16 general counsel has a meeting with them on Friday,

17 just trying to have a better coordinated effort with

18 justice, just like we do with interior and treasury.

19 But we will have to address that question. We have

20 been asked. That's why it's come up in this

21 context.

22 Yes.

23 MR. EUGENE LUJAN: Yes. Good morning.

24 Thank you. My name is Gene Lujan. I represent the

25 Pueblo of Santa Ana. I am chairman of the gaming

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1 commission here at Santa Ana. I just wanted to

2 follow-up on the question that the gentleman here

3 asked, too, as far as I don't know if that concerns

4 NIGC. As far as the calculation of net revenue, we

5 have had an issue here, Santa Ana does, or at least

6 some of the gaming tribes have an issue with how we

7 compute our calculations for net revenue. And maybe

8 I thought if we had some kind of training so that

9 it's standardized and go through a training where

10 it's step by step by step, everybody. Because it

11 seems to me that everybody does it different. And

12 so consequently, these are some of the questions

13 that the state control board always -- we have an

14 issue with, especially wide area progressives.

15 I know we tried to tackle this issue this

16 year or last year, and we made some progress, but to

17 me, I think there is no standard way of doing it.

18 Everybody seems to do it different, or maybe they

19 interpret how we are supposed to do it. And

20 training wise, maybe that's something that we ought

21 to come up with or NIGC should come up with and give

22 training or classes for us on a step by step so

23 everybody does it exactly the same.

24 I don't know if that's one way of doing

25 it, or I don't know -- I don't understand, but

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1 everybody seems to have different views, different

2 interpretations, different way of doing things.

3 Consequently we all know in here, especially the

4 gaming commissioners, we all have different

5 interpretations of how we do our computations.

6 Sometimes we don't want to share. We

7 don't want to give out certain things. That's just

8 the human nature of native tribes. They don't want

9 to give out certain things, so, you know, we hold

10 back, but if we have a set of bogus numbers that we

11 can go by and just go through the process, I don't

12 know if that's one of the requirements that NIGC

13 should bring up, but that's just my suggestion.

14 Maybe that would clear up a lot of issues, but

15 anyway that's one issue.

16 Another issue, Class II gaming. I know, I

17 think if I am correct -- correct me if I am wrong --

18 Navajo has Class II gaming, and do we have a set of

19 MICS in place right now where NIGC can regulate or

20 we can regulate Class II gaming. At one point,

21 Santa Ana thought of bringing in Class II gaming,

22 but I said, no, I don't want to get in trouble with

23 the state. As far as our compacts are concerned, I

24 think we are not at least allowed to have Class II

25 gaming machine wise. Yes, we have bingo and stuff

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1 like this, but as far as MICS wise, I don't know if

2 there is anything in place right now conclusive that

3 we can use to regulate Class II gaming. That's my

4 question, how far along are we as far as

5 standardizing a lot of MICS standards?

6 You can give me an answer or at some point

7 come back with an answer, because I think Santa Ana

8 is thinking about it. But at the time or at the

9 moment, I said, no, I don't want to get in trouble

10 with that, so didn't try to push it. But as a

11 gaming commission, I said I don't think we want to

12 tackle that problem. It's just going to create a

13 lot of problems for us. But I would appreciate

14 that. Thank you very much.

15 CHAIR STEVENS: First of all, thank you

16 for your comments and your questions. I think part

17 of the question around that revenue is the

18 definition. I think technical assistance and

19 training is a great idea, and it should be part of

20 our catalog, but first I think we need -- the

21 question has come up about the definition, and we

22 should figure out what the definition is first in

23 your comments here, because it is done differently

24 in different places. You know, we should get that

25 solidified first through our consultation, what's

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1 going to work best for tribes and what stays within

2 the statutory boundaries that we are confined to,

3 and then we certainly should have training on that.

4 But also in terms of Class II, there is

5 a -- one of the previous advisory committees, before

6 the Class III advisory committee there was a Class

7 II advisory committee, and those were finalized in

8 October of 2008. But the deadline to comply is not

9 until October of 2011, because we were hearing back

10 from tribes that they were having some -- they were

11 facing some issues as they tried to comply with

12 those. And so that brought to our attention the

13 need to talk about those during these consultations

14 on rate review. Do we need to revisit those Class

15 II MICS?

16 So those aren't standard right now

17 officially. Prior to that, there were other

18 standing internal control standards that are in

19 place that I think tribes are using, or they are

20 trying to comply with the ones that are not -- the

21 deadline to comply is not until this October. So I

22 think that's what everyone is using.

23 There are also technical standards that

24 were finalized during that same time period that

25 apply to Class II machines, and I think that's what

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1 tribes are using who operate Class II machines.

2 Although I will say we have also been asked to

3 revisit those, because there are some elements of

4 those regulations that are not working. It's good

5 to revisit these to find out what's actually working

6 and what's not working. So, you know, there are

7 standards out there right now that you can take a

8 look at and use, and we know that other tribes are

9 using them. But we are happy to revisit them if you

10 want us to revisit them. Thank you.

11 Yes.

12 MS. MAXINE VELASQUEZ: Maxine Velasquez,

13 in-house counsel for the Pueblo of Tesuque. I would

14 just like to make a comment on a couple of the

15 issues that the chairman from Santa Ana brought up

16 on net revenue and the calculation of net revenue on

17 Class II gaming in New Mexico. I think it's

18 important for the New Mexico tribes and the compact

19 tribes, the 2007 and '01 tribes to know that, of

20 course, NIGC has responsibility for the definition

21 of net revenue according to IGRA. And Class II MICS

22 are coming up through the NIGC. But when it comes

23 to net revenue calculations for the State of New

24 Mexico, we have to look at the gaming compact,

25 because that's where our definition is.

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1 So the issue, Chairman, with the

2 calculation is, you are right, all of the different

3 tribes have different calculations. So the New

4 Mexico Gaming Control Board sees that, and they are

5 coming in and they are trying to finalize a uniform

6 calculation for all of us, but we all calculate the

7 net revenue a little differently. We have our

8 different interpretations. So the only way I think

9 that's going to be handled in the future is if they

10 take us to arbitration, and they haven't done that

11 yet. So that's an issue here in the State of New

12 Mexico on net revenue in Section -- I think it's

13 section what, 11. Section 11 of the compact. So

14 that's the issue we are going to have to deal with

15 internally. That's a New Mexico issue.

16 The other issue on Class II gaming, the

17 2007 and '01 compact don't preclude the tribes from

18 having Class II gaming in New Mexico. If that's

19 something we want to do, we can do that. I sat in

20 the compacts in 1999 when we were trying in 2001 and

21 2007, and those issues, the state at some point

22 tried to put those preclusions in there, but we

23 fought to keep them out. So the tribes do want to

24 have Class II in the State of New Mexico. We can.

25 It was more of a gentlemen's agreement

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1 with Governor Richardson at that time and some of

2 the governors, that Class II would not be put in

3 place because it was so political. But the tenure,

4 the change has happened over the years, and we see

5 more Class II coming in. So that's going to be an

6 interesting fight in New Mexico. It's a political

7 issue. It's a policy issue. Now with the new

8 governor coming up, Susanna Martinez, we are all

9 going to face that battle together. So I just

10 wanted to make those distinctions in New Mexico as

11 compared to what NICG is doing with the definition

12 on net revenue pursuant to Class II and IGRA.

13 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Can I ask you a follow-up

14 question?

15 MS. VELASQUEZ: Yes.

16 MS. ECHO-HAWK: When it comes to the

17 differences in the definition of net revenue, in the

18 compact or by ordinance or whatever, how does that

19 affect say your audits that you have to submit to

20 the NIGC? If you have a definition of net revenue

21 and the state has a definition of net revenue and we

22 have a definition of net revenue, do you see audit

23 findings? Do you know, can you think of a way that

24 we can maybe clarify that somehow?

25 MS. VELASQUEZ: Our definition of net

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1 revenue is for purposes of paying revenue share to

2 the state, so there is no audit findings from that

3 perspective.

4 MS. ECHO-HAWK: So I guess I am wondering

5 from like your audit or your auditor, your

6 operations, regulatory standpoint, then when you do

7 your audits, you have to make one calculation that

8 you send to the state, you have to make another

9 calculation in order to base your fees on?

10 MS. VELASQUEZ: Right.

11 MS. ECHO-HAWK: And is there a way that we

12 can do this in a way that your auditors are not like

13 pulling their hair out because they have three

14 different definitions that they have to use?

15 MS. VELASQUEZ: I think they have worked

16 that out. The net revenue for purposes of fees and

17 all that gets paid to the NIGC, but the net revenue

18 share to the state is totally different. So that's

19 who -- New Mexico Gaming Control Board evaluates

20 that. That's the issue right now that plagues some

21 of the tribes. The auditors don't have an issue

22 with that, just different calculations, but we are

23 complying with both federal law and state compact.

24 I just wanted to make that distinction. Thank you.

25 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Okay.

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1 CHAIR STEVENS: Yes, sir.

2 MR. PETER GARCIA, JR.: Can I comment on

3 that also? One of the things that we need to

4 realize NIGC needs to understand is that in compact

5 for wide area progressives in states that we use a

6 certain calculation that the state wants us to use,

7 but it's not according to the general accounting

8 standards. That's where the problem is. Everything

9 is calculated according to the general accounting

10 standards, except for that section that deals with

11 wide area progressives. That's why some tribes have

12 the progressive and some tribes don't, and that's

13 where the mixup is, and that's the problem that we

14 are facing.

15 And I think that the state needs to

16 realize also that if we are to do things according

17 to law, according to standards, they should change

18 that section in the compact also.

19 CHAIR STEVENS: Thank you.

20 Yes, sir.

21 MR. PAUL CHINANA: Good afternoon,

22 Chairwoman Tracie Stevens, Vice Chair Ms. Cochran,

23 and also Commissioner Mr. Little. My name is Paul

24 Chinana. I am from the Pueblo of Jemez. I am the

25 councilman. I was sitting here waiting for my

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1 Governor, Michael Toledo, Jr., to show up, but

2 apparently he is on another mission now, so I don't

3 think he will show up.

4 But today I just wanted to make a couple

5 of comments or points and, you know, the Pueblo of

6 Jemez appreciates the opportunity to consult with

7 NIGC, with the commissioners. I have a written

8 statement that I would like to present to you this

9 morning.

10 Back in July of 2010, we were encouraged

11 by Secretary Salazar on the directive on calling for

12 a review of the current guidance and the regulatory

13 standards used to make decisions on or off the

14 reservation, a two part determination, gaming under

15 Section 20 of the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act and

16 its implementing regulations.

17 And this NIGC consultation and the Office

18 of Indian Gaming Consultation have some overlap.

19 Our comments will focus on that overlap, which is

20 the sole proprietary interest rule contained in the

21 Indian Gaming Regulatory Act.

22 The Pueblo of Jemez is a community that

23 has maintained its traditional practices and

24 cultural values passed down by our ancestors for

25 hundreds of years. We are a federally recognized

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1 Indian tribe with over 3,400 members, pueblo

2 members, with a language fluency of over 85 percent.

3 And our reservation is located in a remote area of

4 north central New Mexico, which is about 45 or

5 30 miles away from here.

6 Given our remote location and lack of

7 natural resources, significant economic development

8 on a reservation including gaming is simply not

9 viable. Recognizing this, the pueblo has proposed

10 an off reservation casino development project in the

11 southern part of the state in Anthony, New Mexico,

12 which has the support of the mayor and the majority

13 of the City of Anthony trustees. And not only that,

14 we have full support from the tribal council, the

15 religious leaders from the Pueblo of Jemez also, and

16 the unanimous support of the Doña Ana County

17 commissioners. The mayor and the majority of the

18 city councilors for the City of Las Cruces, we have

19 major support from the southern part of the state.

20 The casino would bring critically needed

21 economic development and employment opportunities to

22 the Pueblo of Jemez, to Anthony and to the

23 surrounding community in Anthony.

24 The Pueblo of Jemez filed its two part

25 determination application in 2004. In '05, '06,

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1 '07, the Pueblo of Jemez and its gaming enterprise

2 board have met numerous times and worked with the

3 NIGC to obtain a letter ruling that our application

4 complied with the sole proprietary interest rule.

5 Obtaining this letter ruling took almost two and a

6 half years and numerous trips to Washington, DC and

7 tens of thousands of dollars in legal, lobbying,

8 accountancy fees, and the NIGC issued a favorable

9 letter ruling on our opinion application on June 8

10 of 2007.

11 We will provide the commission with a copy

12 of that letter ruling along with our written

13 comments at a later date. We recently spent close

14 to $100,000 updating our Draft Environmental Impact

15 Statement, because the DOI solicitors office said

16 that the data had become stale. No environmental

17 issues changed, none of the conclusions changed.

18 Only our bank account balance changed to pay for

19 this redo and update and a lot of time.

20 The Department of Interior is considering

21 a Section 20 rulemaking, and if so, we are afraid

22 that our DEIS data will once again get stale because

23 of the delay. We mentioned this experience because

24 we want to urge the NIGC not to require a redo of

25 our sole proprietary interest letter ruling. It is

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1 our position that more effort should be placed on

2 processing the application and less effort on

3 developing new rules. Most importantly, the rules

4 need to stay the same long enough for applications

5 to be acted upon.

6 Applications should be considered under

7 the laws and rules that were in effect at the time

8 the application was filed. We applaud this

9 administration's commitment to follow the law and to

10 bring much needed transparency to the process. And

11 some rules could be improved, but it should be done

12 in a manner that moves the applications through the

13 pipeline.

14 The NIGC has many technical topics as I

15 heard this morning. As part of this consultation,

16 we will not comment on those issues. Our two

17 comments are focused on the sole proprietary

18 interest rule and fundamental fairness.

19 No. 1, letter rulings regarding the sole

20 proprietary interest rule that have been issued

21 should stand, and there should be no requirements to

22 obtain another letter ruling even if there are new

23 rules. Number 2, as a matter of fundamental

24 fairness, the application and project should be

25 considered under the rules in place at the time the

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1 applications were filed.

2 Changing the rules and applying those

3 changes retroactively is not fair. In many lines of

4 businesses and in many agencies, the government

5 always provides for prospective effective dates for

6 new requirements and provides for grandfathering

7 pending applications and projects.

8 Gaming is a business, and business

9 decisions and the underlying applications made under

10 one set of rules should receive agency evaluations

11 under those rules. This principle of prospective

12 effective dates and grandfathering pending

13 applications should be guiding principles at the

14 Department of the Interior and the National Indian

15 Gaming Commission.

16 Gaming applications take a long time to

17 get through the process. Since we filed our

18 applications, there have been numerous changes to

19 the BIA checklist, new Section 20 regulations, and

20 the guidance memo. The tribes that are most

21 affected by ever changing rules are the tribes least

22 capable of funding the legal and other experts

23 needed to redo, supplement, and update.

24 It is becoming clearer that tribes

25 opposing certain applications are using the call for

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1 new rulemaking as a delay tactic. It costs them

2 nothing to call for new rulemakings, but the delay

3 involved is costing the tribes making the

4 application millions and millions of dollars, and

5 poor tribes like us, we can't afford that.

6 It wouldn't be tolerated in our society if

7 a previously perfectly legal activity was ruled

8 illegal one day and people were thrown into prison

9 the next day for having engaged in that activity

10 before it became illegal. Yet this is very similar

11 to how tribes are treated by the Department of

12 Interior under the January 3, '08 guidance memo when

13 pending applications were thrown into the denied

14 pile with no notice or review. No comments were

15 made.

16 For those unfamiliar with the events

17 surrounding the guidance memo, I would like to maybe

18 briefly summarize on that. If I may, on January 3rd

19 of 2008, the Department of the Interior adopted

20 substantive new standards governing its

21 consideration of off reservation gaming fee trust

22 applications under the guise of a guidance document,

23 and although characterized as nonbinding policy or

24 guidance, the documenting fact imposed substantive

25 new standards the department invoked that very next

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1 day to deny 22 pending fee trust applications,

2 including the pending application for the Pueblo of

3 Jemez. As a substantive legislative rule, this new

4 policy was adopted unlawfully without the notice and

5 comment required by the administration procedure and

6 it should be rescinded. We made that same comment

7 to the Department of Interior consultation back in

8 November.

9 Furthermore its procedural and legal

10 deficiencies aside, the guidance should be withdrawn

11 because it has no basis in logic or in law. The

12 commutability standard imposed by the guidance

13 presumes that tribal members residing on reservation

14 will not obtain any benefits from the casino,

15 because they will not be able to commute to the

16 casino to work there, if they do, the fabric of the

17 reservation community will be damaged due to their

18 absence.

19 This erroneous presumption, unsupported by

20 any evidence, wholly ignores the fact that the

21 central benefit tribal casinos provide is income to

22 tribal governments and their members. Off

23 reservation casinos can provide this much needed

24 income just as well as on reservation casinos.

25 And in closing, Congress declared the

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1 purpose of this Indian gaming policy is to provide a

2 statutory basis for the operation of gaming by

3 Indian tribes as a means of promoting tribal

4 economic development, self-sufficiency, and strong

5 governments. Without a viable source of income, the

6 tribal governments cannot provide their members,

7 tribal members, with important governmental programs

8 such as health care, eldercare, law enforcement,

9 schools, fire departments, and the like.

10 With our small convenience store in the

11 Pueblo of Jemez and a small visitor center, one

12 would be hard pressed to generate that kind of

13 revenue and jobs to provide for a community of a

14 tribe of 35 -- 3,400 plus people. IGRA recognizes

15 that in certain circumstances under stringent

16 restrictions, tribes should be given the right to

17 conduct off reservation gaming because the off

18 reservation locations are the only viable locations

19 for gaming operations.

20 And I thank the NIGC, the governors,

21 lieutenant governors, tribal councilmen, tribal

22 representative, ladies and gentlemen for listening

23 to our comments, and I thank you for that. Thank

24 you.

25 CHAIR STEVENS: Thank you, sir.

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1 MR. CHINANA: I just want to recognize our

2 governor from the Pueblo of Jemez, Mr. Michael

3 Trujillo, Jr. He just showed up.

4 MR. MICHAEL TRUJILLO, JR.: Good morning,

5 everyone. My name is Governor Michael Trujillo, Jr.

6 We were up there at Santa Fe, at the Governor of New

7 Mexico's peer breakfast, so that's why we came in

8 late.

9 I also want to express what the councilman

10 here had read off. We are a small community, a

11 small tribe up here in Jemez. We have no viable

12 resources. Again, you know, we are doing this for

13 two communities, the community of Anthony down in

14 Doña Ana County and also the Pueblo of Jemez. We

15 are helping out the Doña Ana County community as far

16 as, you know, their infrastructure, their home life,

17 and also what we can bring up to Jemez, whatever

18 generates down there, we can bring up to Jemez, up

19 here and help our community, the surrounding

20 community. Not only the tribe of Jemez, but

21 everyone else in a 25-mile radius, you can say,

22 because there are other pueblos that have gaming

23 already which generates revenues for their tribes.

24 And us, we don't have any resources to support our

25 pueblo.

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1 Other than that, I am pretty sure you have

2 understood what Councilman Paul Chinana had said

3 already or read out for our tribe, and that's where

4 we stand as of today. And I want to thank you,

5 everyone, for your audience and listening to what we

6 have to say for our tribe. So thank you again. I

7 wish everyone a good day. Thank you.

8 CHAIR STEVENS: Thank you, Governor. I am

9 glad that you could join us.

10 I am aware of your application only

11 because I used to work at the Department of Interior

12 and Indian Affairs, and we discussed that. I

13 probably was sitting in a meeting with you in my

14 former position to Mr. Echo-Hawk, but I'm not really

15 familiar with the status of your application at this

16 time. I am well aware of the consultation and the

17 direction from the secretary to look at two part,

18 the two part process.

19 And because the authorities are divided

20 between the Secretary of Interior and the Chair, the

21 NIGC doesn't have any place in the two part

22 application, although I am happy to see what I can

23 do to get inquiries over at the department about the

24 status of your application.

25 What does interest me is the sole

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1 proprietary interest letter that was generated from

2 the NIGC in June of 2007, and I don't want to appear

3 to be rude. I was just barking at my attorney who

4 is in DC to produce that for me so I can see what it

5 is and see if there is anything that we can do to

6 address your concern on that particular letter or

7 take that into consideration if we do address sole

8 proprietary interest in regulation. Although that's

9 one of those big issues like MICS that we'll have a

10 lot of comment on.

11 MR. TRUJILLO: Thank you very much, Madam

12 Chair, and we will go ahead and send our remarks and

13 also send the letter along with our comments.

14 CHAIR STEVENS: Great. Thank you.

15 Yes, sir.

16 MR. ROBERT GARCIA: Good morning,

17 Commissioners, Governors, Tribal Leaders, and fellow

18 regulators. My name is Robert Garcia from San

19 Felipe Pueblo.

20 First off, I would like to say that in New

21 Mexico, on an annual basis the pueblo governors are

22 elected on the first of the year. And my question

23 is on your February 12th comment period, if that can

24 be moved back, because this will give us time to

25 present the comments to the tribal leadership and

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1 tribal council before we forward them down to the

2 NIGC for approval from our respective councils and

3 leadership. So if that date is not locked in, I

4 would like to request for us here in New Mexico, we

5 can have that opportunity to have that date moved

6 back maybe to March to give us time to take the

7 comments to the tribal councils.

8 And another comment I would like to make,

9 since you brought up -- well, the discussion on net

10 revenue has been brought up here. And I know when

11 you were here last year for Sandia Pueblo, we

12 mentioned or we requested if you the current

13 commissioners would be able to look at how the

14 casinos are classified in terms of net revenue under

15 tier C, because some of us, you know, we are at the

16 bottom end of the tier C, and we are in the same

17 league as those bigger casinos or high end casinos,

18 like Foxwoods, and sometimes our revenue is not

19 sufficient enough to meet the regulatory

20 requirements, for example, surveillance equipment.

21 I know we have to have the equipment, you

22 know, as required in Class III gaming, but with us,

23 we are trying to keep our, you know, revenues

24 intact, and also we need to put some of that money

25 back, also back not only into surveillance and that

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1 equipment, but also into our server with our

2 particular casino. Now, it's hard for us to say,

3 well, let's put the money in the server or our

4 surveillance equipment. So in there, not to

5 elaborate on the point, it gives us an opportunity,

6 if NIGC would reclassify the tier C gaming, so it

7 will help us better manage our revenues and our

8 monies as we project our spending throughout the

9 year. So that's something I would like to also

10 bring back. I know this was brought up last year.

11 So thank you for your attention, and I

12 would like to wish you well. And I think this is a

13 testament of what you said last year about making

14 that commitment to listen to the tribes. And this

15 is good to know that this dialogue is going to

16 continue to happen. So with that, thank you.

17 CHAIR STEVENS: Thank you for attending

18 this morning and thank you for your comment. I

19 think we will have to talk about whether we can push

20 the deadline back or not, because we do have by

21 executive order an agenda that we have to produce

22 and these have to be submitted by April. But we can

23 talk about it and maybe talk to you about what kind

24 of timeline would be more suitable.

25 Because we did open it up in November, but

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1 we also understand -- and we apologize, that there's

2 many things going on here in this area for the

3 pueblos at this time of year. And as I mentioned to

4 someone, you know, we run into that with every time

5 that we schedule wherever we go in the country,

6 there's different cultural and traditional things

7 going on, certain things going on every place at

8 some point in the year. I apologize. I know that

9 you all had busy schedules. You had something else

10 with the governor today. You had ceremonies. You

11 had elections. We try to do the best we can, so I

12 apologize for that.

13 We can talk about it. You know, you said

14 what, March?

15 MR. GARCIA: Yes. Sometime in March,

16 maybe toward the end of the first quarter sometime,

17 the end of March, if that's a possibility.

18 CHAIR STEVENS: Lael has to do the work.

19 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Let me -- frankly, the end

20 of March, it wouldn't give me any time to take your

21 comments and review them, seriously. And one of the

22 things, we have to have the agenda finalized at the

23 beginning of April. And one of the things that we

24 are looking at, one of the things we have committed

25 to is taking all the comments that are received by

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1 tribes, reviewing them thoroughly, and then coming

2 up with an agenda, not only an agenda, but an

3 explanation of how we reached the decisions that we

4 made.

5 So I simply can't -- if all the comments

6 were to come in in March even, you know, we have got

7 a number of other events and things that we need to

8 do. There simply would not be enough time for us to

9 review those comments thoroughly and make a good

10 decision, which is why we set -- February 12th is

11 basically six weeks for us to put all that

12 information together, start planning. So it's very

13 difficult.

14 We will talk about maybe, you know, maybe

15 we can try to move it a little bit around given the

16 constraints here. But in order for us to make a

17 good decision, we need all the information sooner

18 than later. We just won't have the time otherwise.

19 MR. GARCIA: That was just a

20 recommendation, but if you can just at least be

21 flexible, and maybe if you can move it back, maybe

22 not that further back, but to give us time.

23 Because, as I mentioned, the governors are newly

24 elected, and some are newly involved in gaming, so

25 we have to give them time to digest the information,

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1 too, and also to get feedback from the respective

2 administrations and councils for us to go ahead to

3 forward the comments to NIGC. So if you can at

4 least, you know, look at that and give us that

5 window of opportunity.

6 CHAIR STEVENS: We will talk about what we

7 might be able to do. And just to put it in context,

8 too, there is, you know, just something that might

9 be helpful, what we are doing here is -- and for

10 some we have been asked, you know, if this was like,

11 give us all your comments on all the regulations,

12 where really what we want are your priorities and

13 how you would like to have things done.

14 There is a good example online that we

15 have posted from San Manuel. Certainly you don't

16 have to do it like they have done it, but it's a

17 good reference of going through the regs and saying

18 this is a priority of ours. This is not. This is a

19 high, low, medium priority. This is not. We don't

20 have anything to say about this regulation, or this

21 is the top priority. But they do it by number on

22 the regulations, and they tell us this is the issue

23 we have with it. Therefore, it's medium, high, low

24 priority, and this is how we suggest you handle it,

25 you know, proposed rulemaking or an advisory

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1 committee or something else.

2 I was talking to somebody outside, and

3 tribes are getting together or a tribe is saying do

4 I have a dog in this fight on this regulation, and

5 if I don't, do I need to comment. So what we are

6 asking for in this particular Notice of Inquiry

7 hopefully is not too burdensome in terms of

8 questions. They are focused on what are the

9 regulations you need to have changed and which ones

10 do you need us to attend to first, really is what we

11 are asking. So hopefully that explains what we are

12 asking and may ease the burden of commenting.

13 But going back to the deadline, we will

14 talk about it, and then we will be in touch with

15 you.

16 Yes, ma'am.

17 MS. HELEN PADILLA: Good morning. My name

18 is Helen Padilla, and I am the vice chair of the

19 Pueblo of Laguna Gaming Control Board, and I just

20 wanted to -- we appreciate this opportunity to

21 consult with you this morning or today and talk just

22 very briefly about the regulatory operations there

23 with the Pueblo of Laguna.

24 We have worked very hard within the last

25 few years to streamline the operations and

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1 regulations, and we have a very good working

2 relationship with the NIGC. I think that everything

3 is moving along very well.

4 I just wanted to reiterate some of the

5 items that the general counsel for the Pueblo of

6 Tesuque talked about in terms of some of the issues

7 that have been raised this morning. In terms of

8 Class II and the operations of Class II gaming here

9 in New Mexico, the definition of net win that's

10 contained in the gaming compacts and also the issue

11 of the wide area progressives, although these are

12 areas that obviously IGRA and NIGC have something to

13 do with, those are clearly state issues that are

14 between the State of New Mexico and are contained in

15 the gaming compacts and calculations in terms of net

16 win, which is the definition that's in the gaming

17 compact.

18 And I think the conversation and the

19 dialogue that happened in terms of the difference in

20 definitions, those are important, however all of

21 those are state issues. And I just want to thank

22 you very much for the opportunity to consult with

23 you today.

24 CHAIR STEVENS: Thank you.

25 Yes.

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1 MS. STEPHANIE CROSBY: Good morning. Good

2 morning. My name is Stephanie Crosby. I am the

3 secretary from the Pueblo of Pojoaque, and Governor

4 Rivera sends regrets that he could not attend today.

5 However, he did appoint our judge and attorney,

6 Frank Demoli, and just to go ahead and give comment

7 on behalf of the pueblo, so thank you.

8 MR. FRANK DEMOLI: Thank you,

9 Commissioners and Honorable Governors and all the

10 honorable working people who are here today. I just

11 wanted to make a few comments and also say the

12 lieutenant governor sends his regrets. He was at

13 the breakfast meeting this morning, and the food

14 must have been good because he's still there. And

15 so I will be speaking on behalf of the Pueblo of

16 Pojoaque today. Governor Rivera made similar

17 comments yesterday to the NIGC staff in Washington,

18 DC.

19 The first thing I would like to say you

20 have asked for specifics, and I would like to say

21 that the specific thing that we need at the Pueblo

22 of Pojoaque right now is a definition by NIGC of net

23 revenue and gross gaming revenue. The reason that

24 we need it is because we have taken on a fight with

25 the Gaming Control Board of New Mexico over revenue

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1 sharing, and your definition is what I would do with

2 them. Because you have so much power and authority,

3 I don't think you even realize how much you affect

4 decisions out in the field. I will take those

5 comments. I will cut and paste those comments, and

6 the theme that we are hitting constantly at the

7 Pueblo of Pojoaque, and that we would like you to

8 put in every document that you have, is that the

9 tribe should be the primary beneficiaries of gaming.

10 This has been lost over the years, and we

11 were very glad to see the Rincon case when it came

12 down, where an objective judge saw what was

13 happening in California and reversed what the state

14 was trying to do. Because that's what is trying to

15 be done by us or to us by the state agencies and by

16 the state. We need to have more ammunition. You

17 can give it to us.

18 Please put -- I have Google alert. As

19 soon as you put anything on the internet, I know.

20 Put those words in your proclamations that the

21 tribes are the primary beneficiaries. This is the

22 theme I am going to hit when we do go into

23 litigation. We did get our notice of noncompliance

24 back in May. We are in the fight, and we will not

25 let them take us to arbitration. We are shooting

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1 for an objective court. So that's where we are

2 going with this issue.

3 Please give us something to work on.

4 Those two definitions would help us immensely. That

5 is what the Pueblo of Pojoaque requests that you put

6 on top of your list. Even though we may not be able

7 to use them in ways that lay people would think that

8 you could use them, I will use them in court. If

9 you want me to quote each one of you as saying it, I

10 will put your names under it.

11 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Will you be putting in

12 that written comment?

13 MR. DEMOLI: You bet.

14 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Okay. Thank you.

15 MR. DEMOLI: The second issue that I would

16 like to take up is that the Pueblo of Pojoaque

17 really appreciates your thorough reviews of our

18 restructuring agreements to determine whether or not

19 they are management contracts, and I want to talk

20 from a field perspective. When we are dealing with

21 investors and people from the outside -- I have been

22 the judge and general counsel for about 17 years --

23 when we are dealing with them, they do not realize

24 the unintended consequences of their actions, and

25 sometimes they are very conscious about wanting to

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1 manage pueblo affairs.

2 I don't want to go into specifics, but

3 what we depend on you for is to protect the pueblo

4 by really looking at these agreements. As

5 sophisticated as attorneys get, we are dealing with

6 Wall Street. We are dealing with very sophisticated

7 economic players. We don't want to have a Pollyanna

8 provision in those restructuring documents that is

9 going to come back and bite the tribes.

10 And I will tell you and publish it

11 publicly, whatever. When we say NIGC will never let

12 this through, generally we are believed. You have

13 very great powers, and you can help the tribes so

14 much by looking out for their best interests. And

15 so I really -- and I'm sorry I am so passionate --

16 but I really, really hope that you can put that in

17 your writings and have that inform your decisions,

18 that the tribes should be the primary beneficiaries

19 of gaming. Because we are out here in the field,

20 and we are fighting as hard as we can, and anything

21 you can do can help us. Thank you for allowing us

22 to work with you.

23 CHAIR STEVENS: Well, thank you very much,

24 and I am glad to hear that our staff is working with

25 you.

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1 We had met or I had met with the governor

2 on several occasions, and also with you, about your

3 restructure, and we are glad that we were able to

4 help out and it had a positive net result from you.

5 That came as a result of you including us. We are

6 going to talk about financing and declination

7 letters and management provisions. That came as a

8 result of you coming to us early on and saying, hey,

9 we need you to help us with this as we move forward,

10 and we, this commission, sees tribes, one, as the

11 primary regulators, but, two, also, we are very

12 serious about tribes being the primary

13 beneficiaries.

14 We see a lot of these financing deals

15 coming through in lots of different creative forms,

16 and all we ask, and we are thankful that the

17 Pojoaques did, come to us early so that we can help

18 you. And I am glad that we were able to. So thank

19 you.

20 We take all your comments seriously, and

21 we hope that you provide those to us in writing and

22 suggestions on how we might do that. Thank you.

23 If there aren't any others, we are past

24 our lunch time. I hate to pull people and be the

25 reason I am standing in the way of peoples' food.

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1 I'm a big fan of food, and I certainly don't want to

2 stand in your way.

3 It is 12:15, so why don't we come back at

4 1:45. We will push it out 15 minutes. That gives

5 us an hour and a half to take care of business.

6 Hope you have a good meal, and we will reconvene at

7 1:45. Thank you all.

8 (A lunch recess was taken between 12:14

9 p.m. and 1:52 p.m.)

10 CHAIR STEVENS: Good afternoon. I hope

11 everybody was able to have a pleasant lunch and get

12 a break, and if you're like me, you were eating

13 lunch and responding to e-mail and phone calls and

14 multitasking.

15 Okay. Let's open it back up for comments.

16 I see we have had some people move from the back of

17 the room to the table, which indicates to me that we

18 are ready for comment, and I appreciate everyone

19 waiting for tribal leaders to comment first. So I

20 will turn the floor over to anyone who would like to

21 speak. You have the floor.

22 MS. CARLEEN CHINO: Good afternoon,

23 Chairperson Ms. Stevens and Vice Chair Ms. Cochran,

24 Mr. Little. My name is Carleen Chino, and I am from

25 the Navajo Nation. I represent the Navajo Nation

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1 and the Navajo Gaming Regulatory Office. We have a

2 couple of talking points here for Mr. Little. We

3 also will put some in writing as well before the

4 deadline.

5 I have with me some attorneys that

6 represent also the Navajo Nation and the Navajo

7 Gaming Regulatory Office, Peter Larson to my right,

8 and Karis Begaye representing the Department of

9 Justice of the Navajo Nation to my left. So we have

10 some comments here. Thank you for this opportunity

11 as well.

12 MS. KARIS BEGAYE: Thank you. Good

13 afternoon. My name is Karis Begaye. I am in-house

14 counsel with the Navajo Nation.

15 We have a couple of issues that we would

16 like to raise here. We are a new gaming tribe. We

17 have only been doing this for about two years, so we

18 are still trying to work through the process here.

19 I don't know if we fully have experienced all of the

20 issues that are being raised by the other tribes

21 because we are so new. But we do have some

22 procedural issues that we would like to raise.

23 One of the things that I think we

24 appreciate hearing from the commission is wanting to

25 be more transparent, because I think that is

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1 probably the main issue that we run into. Because

2 we are so new, we analyze everything we do, and we

3 try to make sure we comply with everything. And any

4 time we send something off, we all panic and hope

5 and cross our fingers that everything is proper.

6 But that sort of leads to our issues,

7 which is when we do -- submissions, we just opened

8 two new casinos, one Fire Rock and the Flowing Water

9 Casino. And so one of the first steps that we have

10 been utilizing in following the Indian Gaming

11 Regulatory Act and all the regulations is doing the

12 submission of the facility license and also sending

13 out our 120 day notice that we are opening up the

14 casino.

15 One of the issues that we see in that

16 process is we don't know what happens once we make

17 the submission. We make the submission and we get

18 an e-mail back, because we do ours electronically

19 and by mail. We will get an e-mail back that says

20 it's been received. But then -- for the 120 day

21 notice we do that, and I think we just recently did

22 one. We are going to be looking at opening a few

23 more.

24 Once we send it off, you know, the

25 question becomes what happens to it, and exactly

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1 what does that mean. For example, with the 120 day

2 notice, what purpose does that serve? What is it

3 that you guys do with the 120 day notice? For

4 instance, our interpretation of reading it, it's

5 just simply a notice that is telling you guys we are

6 intending on issuing a facility license in 120 days.

7 But the problem that we are running into

8 is, to give you an example, we did one for one of

9 our proposed sites, and we ended up getting a letter

10 back from NIGC saying, questioning our 120 day

11 notice and whether or not these were truly tribal

12 trust land, did they qualify under the Indian Gaming

13 Regulatory Act. We also did another recent 120 day

14 notice, and we got another response wanting further

15 documentation on whether or not these were Indian

16 lands and they qualify.

17 It raised a little bit of concern with us,

18 because we had thought this was simply a notice that

19 it was sent out. We didn't realize you always -- do

20 they approve this, is this really an approval, or is

21 it a notification. So we ran into that issue,

22 wanting to know what it is, when we give you the 120

23 day notice, what do you guys do at that moment.

24 Does someone review it? Is it taken under

25 consideration? Is there, you know, a chance that

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1 once we send this off, that you guys can disapprove

2 it?

3 The reason I raise the issue is because we

4 have financing, lenders, that, you know, do we need

5 to wait the entire 120 days before we can really,

6 you know, decide that this is where we are going to

7 gain. So these, for us, at least, the transparency

8 part of that is important, so at least we have

9 somewhat of an idea of, once we make a submission,

10 what exactly does NIGC do and what role. And, you

11 know, we are sort of in a period of wondering what

12 will happen once we do the submission. So that's

13 one of the issues that we have.

14 Another issue that we ran into is, you

15 know, with the facility license. We have an idea of

16 what's all required in the facility license, and we

17 create notebooks of all the requirements, and we do

18 our submission of the facility license to NIGC. We

19 do get an e-mail response back. But the question

20 is, what do you guys do with that information?

21 Because when we issue it, when we send it off, we

22 want to make sure that we are not going to get --

23 you know, do you guys review it? Are you going to

24 disapprove it or are you going to approve it? We

25 are curious as to what role you play once we make

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1 those submissions, because, well, our biggest

2 concern is not following the procedures.

3 We are so new. We have only done two, and

4 so we don't feel comfortable are we following the

5 right process, because as we proceed with opening

6 our other casinos, we want to make sure that the

7 steps that we have in place within the Navajo Nation

8 are what NIGC is looking for.

9 I guess that we are sort of in an area

10 where we are just wondering and hoping and crossing

11 our fingers that we are doing everything properly,

12 but it would be helpful if we also kind of

13 understood what NIGC does and what their role is.

14 So those are probably the two issues that we have.

15 As far as one of the topics that I have

16 heard probably discussed the most, the one that we

17 are the most concerned with is the tribal advisory

18 committee. Our position or our concern with

19 establishing that committee is we don't want to lose

20 the one on one, government to government

21 consultation with this commission. Our concern

22 would be, you know, we want to make sure our voice

23 is heard, and if we have, you know, concerns or

24 comments, that that is heard by this commission.

25 You know, we have thought about, well,

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1 maybe we can suggest, you know, one member of every

2 tribe sitting on this advisory committee. That way

3 it ensures all the gaming tribes have a voice at the

4 table. Is that practical, we don't know. But at

5 least it guarantees and gives everyone the

6 opportunity to sit at the table and have a say.

7 Because I'm sure you know, just attending these

8 meetings, all the tribes are unique and they all

9 express various concerns. And so, you know, our

10 concern is making sure that whoever will represent

11 our area or will be speaking on behalf of the tribe

12 is someone who is going to advocate for our

13 interests.

14 So as far as the advisory committee,

15 that's probably the biggest concern we have, is we

16 want to ensure that if it's created, that the Navajo

17 Nation will have an opportunity to have a voice on

18 that committee.

19 So as far as, that's basically our

20 position on that issue, but as Carleen mentioned, we

21 will be preparing written comments and submitting

22 those to you. Thank you.

23 CHAIR STEVENS: Thank you.

24 MR. PETER LARSON: Thank you, Carleen. My

25 name is Peter Larson. I am an attorney from Lewis

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1 and Roca here on behalf of the gaming regulatory

2 office.

3 I will hit the two remaining issues really

4 quickly. The first is the potential expansion of

5 the definition of management contract. That's a

6 concern. I'm sure you have heard this at other

7 consultations, that that's generally a very

8 burdensome process. If every time the slot lease

9 agreement were entered into it had to be approved by

10 the NIGC, everyone had to be backgrounded, yada,

11 yada, yada, and eight months passed before the

12 agreement is actually effective.

13 The other point to that is, to the extent

14 that that definition is expanded, every time the

15 NIGC approved or the chairwoman approved one of

16 those contracts, there would have to be a NEPA

17 analysis done. So there is a lot of cost and time

18 done to ensure that NEPA was complied with just for

19 the purpose of entering into a slot lease agreement.

20 So I would encourage you maybe not to expand the

21 definition of management agreement right now, or to

22 the extent that there is some sort of expansion,

23 make sure that you focus upon the definition of

24 management as it is, and that always relates to

25 control of the gaming operation.

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1 The other idea that kind of popped up in

2 the NOI is the idea of interim remedies. Instead of

3 going from zero to the death penalty, you have an

4 idea of a ticketing system or at least, you know,

5 notice of working through it. That's not a real big

6 issue I don't think here in this region, because Ken

7 is, you know, incredibly amenable to our working

8 through everything. That's an informal process,

9 though. It might do some good for the NIGC and

10 tribes here to have a more formal process.

11 Do you have ideas on what that process

12 would look like or some of the, or I don't know,

13 some of the bigger issues for tribes unnamed that

14 you kind of run into problems on?

15 CHAIR STEVENS: And will Navajo be

16 submitting written comments?

17 MR. LARSON: We will be submitting written

18 comments here before the close.

19 CHAIR STEVENS: Okay. And you said you

20 had some suggestions on that last issue, so you will

21 be including that in your comment?

22 MR. LARSON: Well, it will include the

23 idea of interim remedies.

24 CHAIR STEVENS: Great.

25 MR. LARSON: But we are wanting to hear

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1 collective wisdom on what you have heard with regard

2 to how interim remedies may work and may not work.

3 CHAIR STEVENS: I think Lael in particular

4 has been -- this is about enforcement and also

5 whether it's about fees, because there was an era of

6 fees going from zero to NOV on the late fee. But I

7 think we have heard from tribes, their attorneys in

8 particular, about the absence of process or some

9 alternatives before you get from zero to ten, but I

10 will let Lael talk about how this came up.

11 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Well, it did come up in

12 the context of the NOVs that were issued last year.

13 I can't even tell you how many were issued last year

14 for the tribes, including the one that I was working

15 for at the time. We got an NOV issued with no

16 notice for, I think, cumulatively it was about 20

17 days the fees were late. And a notice of violation

18 is a substantial -- for tribes you guys know, it's a

19 big deal. It's not -- you know, I think the

20 attitude at the agency at the time and the feedback

21 that I got when we brought this up was, oh, you

22 know, it's just a little NOV. It's no big deal. It

23 is a big deal, so how can we sort of mitigate that.

24 Well, still we exist off the fees that are

25 paid by tribes, so we need to make sure they are

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1 actually paid so we can continue to function. But

2 there has to be a different way of doing it. There

3 has got to be a progressive way of how can we

4 preempt an NOV. In some cases, that may be okay,

5 you know, if it's really egregious, but so far all

6 the comments we have heard from tribes is they like

7 this idea. They think it's something that NIGC

8 should be thinking about and working on.

9 I haven't heard anyone give sort of a

10 solid explanation of what they think it would look

11 like, except sort of some kind of sliding scale,

12 percentage maybe of, like the fine, I guess, would

13 be a percentage of the fee certain, a certain dollar

14 amount, you know, over time, whatever. But we

15 haven't heard any solid thoughts on that. So if you

16 do have those, if you have ideas about that, then

17 please let us know.

18 The other thing to remember is one thing

19 that we have kicked around quite a bit, that those

20 fines, like a settlement agreement, any fines or

21 anything that we issue, that money goes into the

22 treasury. So we have been thinking a lot about that

23 as well how to address that issue. But so far,

24 everyone, we have not heard a negative comment about

25 that so --

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1 COMMISSIONER LITTLE: If I could just add

2 quickly. One thing about NOVs, they are labor

3 intensive for the commission, and like Lael said, we

4 are funded a hundred percent by the fees that drive

5 pay. So these are your fees that we are going to be

6 spending to issue NOVs. So if there is a mechanism

7 where we can create a process where we are not going

8 through all this extra leg work that the attorneys

9 and the staff have to do, then it's a saving for the

10 commission.

11 MR. LARSON: And finally -- I should have

12 said this before -- at the beginning of the meeting,

13 you suggested that one of the primary initiatives of

14 the NIGC right now -- I should say you said, not

15 suggested -- was that training and technical

16 assistance is a priority. I think that's a

17 fantastic idea. In fact, we were talking about that

18 last night, because, you know, Navajo is not very

19 near Albuquerque, it's not very near Phoenix, and

20 it's very expensive to travel all that distance for,

21 you know, a one day seminar. Carleen can't send 44

22 employees down to Phoenix for a one or a two or a

23 three dayer.

24 So, you know, to the extent that there is

25 a possibility for more on-site training and in more

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1 maybe more different places throughout the region,

2 that would probably be welcome.

3 CHAIR STEVENS: And Vice Chairwoman

4 Cochran had just written this down, that it sounds

5 like there is an opportunity for some training and

6 technical assistance that we might be able to

7 provide. I am looking at Ken, because they go to

8 the regional director, and we do go out to tribes.

9 If there is enough topics and enough people that

10 it's more cost effective for the tribe to have a few

11 of our staff come out to you, as opposed to having a

12 whole bunch of you at your expense come out to like

13 a one topic, two topic thing, it works out better.

14 So if you have -- I mean, I encourage you to talk to

15 Ken about, you know, what your needs are and see if

16 there is some way that we can work out helping you

17 through technical assistance and training.

18 MS. CHINO: Mr. Billingsley and the region

19 office has actually been more accommodating to us

20 more recently, but I believe it's more just at the

21 local level is where we need the training in our

22 specific area, only because we are rural and right

23 in an area where there is massive land around us. I

24 believe Ken comes out -- actually he was there

25 yesterday at our newest casino doing an inspection,

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1 so that came out actually really good.

2 But Navajo Nation is actually unique. We

3 have two compacts with Arizona and New Mexico, and

4 then we have a Class II gaming activities going

5 also. It's a variety of those issues, but it's just

6 the staff that need that training for both Class II

7 and Class III, and internal controls are various.

8 And so it's just a matter of getting it local and

9 trying to get the attention, including the tribes,

10 the neighboring tribes, that again we all share

11 budgetary concerns and issues regarding that.

12 I have one more issue. It was on

13 fingerprint background investigations. And actually

14 if we could just keep the option at the tribe's

15 discretion for sending out any vendor fingerprints,

16 and just coming from Navajo Nation on that

17 particular issue, keeping it at the tribal level to

18 use our discretion to send those vendor fingerprints

19 in at our option.

20 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you. I wanted

21 to also offer up, because you are new at the NIGC

22 processes, we can also assist with getting some

23 technical assistance to the attorneys to help you

24 through the process, explain what happens, because

25 obviously the commissioners, as we sit up here, we

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1 are not involved in every step of how OGC handles

2 the notices that come in. So if that's helpful,

3 please let us know, and we will put you in touch

4 with the general counsel and see what we can do to

5 get the attorneys to understand the process, so we

6 can better guide your client and explain it to them.

7 MS. CHINO: Thank you very much.

8 CHAIR STEVENS: And I do want to

9 reiterate, with our new general counsel, you are

10 free to call any time. This is really a new -- it's

11 a new commission, and we have a new general counsel

12 who is open to phone calls from tribes, to making

13 the staff available to your questions. So if there

14 is uncertainty about a process that you are going

15 through, I have talked to a couple of the tribes,

16 and I am trying not to be rude, but like I said, I

17 am barking, where is this and where is that, because

18 I am getting questions about the process, and

19 availing our staff to you to answer your questions.

20 So always feel free to call our office and

21 ask for Larry Roberts, who is our general counsel.

22 He does make -- you know, they should be helping

23 tribes to get through these processes, and make it

24 clear, if you have a question, you know, where are

25 we at with this facility license, I haven't heard

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1 anything back. You know, you should feel free to

2 contact them and find out what the process is.

3 In terms of facility licensing, we have

4 heard so much about that, that when that -- you

5 know, I wasn't working for the government at the

6 time, but I was working for my tribe. And when the

7 facility license rates came out, a lot of people

8 were surprised about the information that was being

9 requested, and was it really an approval or not, but

10 we clearly do need to address those again.

11 Any comments you might have about the

12 process you have been through, we welcome hearing

13 them. But it's very likely we will have to -- one

14 of the bigger issues that we are going to have to

15 take a look at, we heard in Oklahoma, there really

16 wasn't any consultation. Once they got it rolling,

17 they went through it pretty quickly. So it's very

18 likely we will have to readdress those.

19 Then management -- I am trying to think of

20 why it came up about expanding into lease

21 agreements. I know we have actually had tribes come

22 to us and ask us to do that, and that might be a

23 surprise to other tribes who wouldn't ask to do

24 that, to expand the definition or at least our

25 review into a lease agreement for management terms.

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1 So I think that's really the only reason, and the

2 sole proprietary interest also. That's the other

3 part of looking into some of those contracts.

4 But we welcome your comments on that.

5 These are things that have been brought to our

6 attention, not necessarily positions that we have.

7 Yes, sir.

8 MR. ALBERT APODACA: My name is Albert

9 Apodaca. I am the executive director of the

10 Mescalero Apache Tribal Gaming Commission. We are

11 like the Navajo Nation in taking the position that

12 we thought we would notify, didn't need approval on

13 the 120 day, and I am glad you did that. But we

14 have experienced the same inflexibility that we had

15 in the past with the gaming commission that we are

16 doing now. And one of the things is, I think, that

17 the gaming commission should be a little more

18 flexible and allowing for exceptions. Because we

19 were not putting up a casino. We were trying -- we

20 are putting 12 machines up, and all of a sudden it's

21 this big old thing, like we are rolled into like

22 with the Bay Mills situation in Michigan.

23 And I think that the NIGC should be a

24 little more flexible and a little more understanding

25 of, like in our situation, we are going to do a

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1 trial run and we were trying to get this thing done

2 before the skiing season is over. The way it looks

3 like, we will have gaming after skiing is over, so

4 that doesn't help us. I think that would have been

5 how more -- we had a situation where we informed the

6 NIGC, and I agree we were late and we should have

7 done it, but if you are only putting up 12 machines,

8 it's not a casino. It's just like another location.

9 I think there should be some accommodations for

10 that, and we didn't get to experience kind of some

11 flexibility there.

12 The second issue I want to bring up is

13 like vendor licensing. It would be helpful -- and

14 now we have discussed this with the state and that

15 didn't go anywhere -- but it would be nice to have a

16 database of vendor licensing where, let's say if the

17 NIGC approved of a vendor, then the local gaming

18 commissions, the tribal gaming commissions, or the

19 TGRA, wouldn't have to do the same kind of

20 comprehensive background on the same vendor.

21 Let's say like in New Mexico, we have 14

22 gaming tribes. We all do a background on

23 Aristocrat. Well, Aristocrat is an international

24 company, and one of the challenges that a local

25 gaming commission has is, you know, we are going to

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1 duplicate. We are going to spend thousands of

2 dollars, just like every other tribe is doing that

3 background, and wouldn't it be more beneficial to

4 the tribes if the NIGC had one where, let's say,

5 they did a background on Aristocrat, and they passed

6 and then, okay, you are licensed through the NIGC or

7 something similar. And then we would have to do on

8 our part maybe a cursory type of background. There

9 is no need to spend thousands and thousands of

10 dollars. If you take that times the number of

11 gaming tribes, it's huge the amount of money on

12 vendor licensing.

13 And then it's hard to keep up. Aristocrat

14 is a good example again, because they have so many

15 changes in their executive group. You know, and so

16 what do you do? You go to Australia and try to

17 figure out who is who and what's what. It would be

18 nice, the trip, but our tribe won't let us. It

19 would be nice to have something like a database or

20 some type of thing.

21 I know we kicked around the idea through

22 our association some years back, that if they were

23 licensed, like let's say in Nevada, New Jersey, and

24 maybe one other jurisdiction, that that would

25 suffice for the most part in us doing a background.

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1 We never did fully accept that, but that would be --

2 you know, because Nevada and New Jersey and those

3 jurisdictions are going to do a much better job than

4 a local tribal gaming commission can do. We don't

5 have the resources, both financial and personnel

6 wise.

7 And then in the comments about allowing

8 the tribes to establish regs and so forth, who is

9 going to make the determination of does the tribal

10 regulation exceed or meet what the NIGC considers

11 minimum internal control standards or regulation

12 that they would do. Would it be like Ken coming

13 down and say, yes, we do agree, no, we don't agree.

14 Who would do that? I mean, it sounds good on paper,

15 but the reality is how do you put it into practice.

16 Like if the Mescalero Apache Tribal Gaming

17 Commission passes regulations -- and I go back to a

18 pet peeve of my mine, plus or minus three percent,

19 and you grant an exemption -- that was a Joe Smith

20 thing.

21 You know, if we grant an exemption or we

22 pass a regulation that says, no, you don't have to

23 do that for the first, you know, 100,000 pulls or

24 plays, something like that, because of the

25 volatility, would that be sufficient or would the

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1 NIGC say, no, you have to comply with a plus or

2 minus three percent variance. You have to

3 investigate that, that sort of thing.

4 And then I'm going to echo what some of

5 the other people have said, because it's becoming a

6 huge issue and it will grow more and more, is the

7 definition -- I don't like to use net revenue,

8 because I think net revenue sometimes means

9 different things to different people. I think the

10 definition of net revenue really needs to be

11 addressed, because what's happening is that as

12 states obviously look to tribes for additional

13 funding and that sort of thing, they want to keep

14 the definition or kind of there is no formal

15 definition of net win anywhere. GAAP does not have

16 it.

17 You know, it's kind of like something that

18 was adopted from Nevada, and it was good 30 or 40

19 years ago, but now you have vendors that have gotten

20 very creative in their placement of gaming machines

21 on the floor. So then you go into the issue, like

22 it's not really wide area progressives, but a big

23 one is participation games. Participation games are

24 where you split the gross revenue off that machine

25 right off the top. And, you know, the AICPA has

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1 come out with the opinion that those are leases, not

2 things that you would find deductible.

3 But if you look at it, and if you look at

4 the wording of the contract, really what you are

5 doing is it's a lot like wide area progressives.

6 Wide area progressives under the AICPA guidelines

7 have been established as deductible. And so I think

8 participation games should fall along those same

9 lines, because you are splitting the gross revenue

10 right off the top, and it's a lot different than a

11 lease or something that you normally have.

12 So I think that needs to be revisited,

13 because obviously if you are the state and you are

14 trying to maximize the amount of taxes that you are

15 going to collect from the tribes, then you want to

16 keep the old one and you want to disallow as many

17 deductions as possible. If you are the tribes, you

18 are trying to maximize your return, and you want to

19 be able to take those in. But you are seeing more

20 and more of that in terms of vendors putting

21 participation games on the floor.

22 And then last, self regulation should be

23 more attainable. I think the standard has been

24 raised so high that it makes it almost impossible.

25 You know, in the past, you know, we have approached

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1 the NIGC just kind of for discussion purposes only,

2 just what would it take, and you get like -- I know

3 it's not your administration, but in the past, it

4 was like, oh, no, you know, you would have to do

5 this and that and that and that, and it was like

6 almost impossible.

7 So I think that the tribal gaming

8 commissions, the tribal regulatory authorities, the

9 tribes themselves, the gaming tribes, have matured

10 enough now and have been in the business long enough

11 so that they know how to regulate their, you know,

12 their gaming operations properly. So I thank you

13 for the time, and there is no letter. These are

14 just notes.

15 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Will you be writing a

16 letter?

17 MR. APODACA: Probably because I think the

18 attorney is here somewhere so --

19 CHAIR STEVENS: Thank you. And we do

20 welcome your comments in writing, and we also heard

21 about incentivizing, promoting self regulation and

22 creating regulation that, you know, encourages

23 tribes to self regulate, rather than -- that's where

24 the part of the PowerPoint says burden versus

25 benefit, is the burden worth the benefit. And, you

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1 know, it should be beneficial for tribes, and I'm

2 not sure that current regulations do that.

3 We only have two, right, two tribes, and

4 one is by statute, so we really only have one. You

5 know, we have heard a lot of talk about that, so

6 thank you.

7 MR. FELIX CHAVEZ: Good afternoon,

8 Chairwoman Stevens, Vice Chair Cochran, and Mr.

9 Little. My name is Felix Chavez. I am the

10 chairperson at the Sandia Tribal Gaming Commission,

11 and I also serve as the current chairperson for the

12 New Mexico Indian Association of Gaming Commissions.

13 We will be submitting our written

14 statements to the NIGC. I would like to first

15 address your initiatives. The consultation and the

16 transparency and the communication, I think that's

17 really good. That's something that we haven't seen

18 before. In the past, you have heard comments from

19 the different gaming commissions and tribal leaders

20 that it wasn't there. It wasn't present. And this

21 is a fresh approach to this issue with the gaming

22 tribes and the NIGC.

23 The second thing is technical and

24 training. You are well aware that the economic

25 conditions that we face today, many of the tribes'

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1 gaming commissions are under budgetary constraints.

2 It would be helpful to receive a lot of the

3 technical and training from NIGC itself. Mr. Ken

4 Billingsley has provided training for the different

5 gaming commissions, but I think it's needed more,

6 especially in the areas of newer technologies, those

7 that advance at a greater rate than what we have

8 seen before.

9 We have the issue of internet gaming.

10 That hasn't even been discussed at our gaming

11 commission, but we are well aware of what's going on

12 on the nationwide scenario. And I think we should

13 voice our opinions with regard to that specific

14 subject on internet gaming. I just don't like the

15 idea that the states can come in and eliminate us

16 from that process. That's an important process.

17 Those are revenues that could be generated by the

18 tribe and used for their support of tribal

19 government and all their needs of their people.

20 And, you know, those are just my comments on

21 technical and training services.

22 Ken has done a great job, and I appreciate

23 that, and I look forward to his continuing efforts

24 to train us, and again, it's sorely needed.

25 The third thing is the regulatory review.

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1 I have been sitting in back and thinking about what

2 I have heard from the different tribes, and I go

3 back to when I was trained in the gaming industry.

4 I grew up in one of the gaming operations, gaming at

5 Sandia. I worked there as an assistant general

6 manager for approximately six and a half years, and

7 then I worked for various gaming commissions in the

8 state here, but I also look back to what the tribe

9 did for me. They sent me to Las Vegas to train to

10 become knowledgeable about the casino industry.

11 Well, one of the professors there spoke

12 about industry standards, and that's what we are

13 talking about today. That's part of your

14 initiatives that you have sent to us and that I

15 would like to reciprocate. A lot of those industry

16 standards are there already. You know, we rely on

17 GLI for the slot machine standards that go into the

18 Class III gaming devices. We look to AICPA for

19 casino and audit information that comes our way, as

20 well as their federal standards advisory board. So

21 a lot of these technical standards come from

22 different locations.

23 At Sandia, we have adopted a lot of those

24 standards. Those industry standards are what keep

25 the gaming operation safe. The gentleman from

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1 Arizona spoke about the risk based approach to the

2 MICS. We implement that religiously at Sandia.

3 That's how we keep control, and we enforce those

4 minimum internal controls. It's a requirement

5 apparently of NIGC that we have the external

6 auditors come and audit the gaming operations

7 financial statements, as well as conduct an audit

8 review on the MICS.

9 So my issue with the MICS is that a lot of

10 these things are grounded in industry standards.

11 Industry standards are important to the gaming

12 operators. There was a comment about the gaming

13 operators. They know what those standards are.

14 They have been entrusted with a fiduciary duty to

15 make sure that profits are sent to the tribe and

16 that it's conducted in a fair and equitable way, not

17 only to the tribe, but to the gaming public.

18 I do agree with the notion that the MICS

19 should be considered guidelines, because again, this

20 lends the support to the tribes with regard to

21 sovereignty. I'm not going to speak on behalf of

22 our tribal council, but the tribal council has

23 determined that they are in the driver's seat, they

24 are the ones who instruct the gaming commissions to

25 review those minimum internal controls to make sure

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1 that they meet or exceed it.

2 And in some regards, their complaints as

3 well as the complaints that we receive from the

4 gaming operations, that to some degree we are over

5 regulated. Again, if you take a risk based approach

6 to the MICS, it's pretty evident. I mean, we are

7 overburdened with that. In some cases we have had

8 to make adjustments to our own minimum internal

9 controls, our regulations, so that the gaming

10 operation could continue to make profits on behalf

11 of the tribe.

12 So I think that, again, the tribes are in

13 the driver's seat. The gaming commissions receive

14 their direction from its counsel, and that's how we

15 proceed with our business at Sandia.

16 With regard to the fees, part 14, 514, on

17 the definition of GAAP, again, I referred earlier to

18 the industry standards, those industry standards

19 come through AICPA, FASB, those folks. Those folks

20 are the ones that create those definitions. And I

21 think it would be advantageous to the tribes if they

22 had a say in what those definitions were. Again,

23 these are Generally Accepted Accounting Principles.

24 We don't make those up. We are not the creators.

25 We don't draft legislation or definitions that

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1 determine that, but again, I think the tribes should

2 have a voice in that.

3 We are acceptable to the late payment or

4 some kind of a sliding scale that was mentioned

5 earlier. The MICS, again, when I was reading the

6 federal register, there was one thing that jumped

7 straight out at me, and that was what would happen

8 if the MICS were revised. We have already

9 incorporated a lot of those regulations or those

10 MICS into the tribal state gaming compact. They are

11 incorporated by reference, and that's what we have

12 to go by these days.

13 So the way I see it, if they were, if the

14 MICS were created as guidelines, let the tribes and

15 their gaming commissions establish those minimum

16 internal controls, either to meet or exceed them so

17 that they can continue on with their gaming

18 operations.

19 Issues that we have with the state, again,

20 are based on some of the concepts and those industry

21 standards that are in the MICS. There are good

22 things to the MICS that help the tribes support

23 their revenue base, and there are other things that

24 we have to continue and fight with the state on

25 minimum internal controls.

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1 One thing that I noticed in the past was

2 in the State of California, their state gaming

3 control board stepped in and replaced the NIGC MICS,

4 and that created a controversy. And that's what I

5 don't like to see in the State of New Mexico,

6 because the State of New Mexico has not been very

7 friendly to the gaming tribes. The gaming tribes

8 all know that. The tribal leaders know that. But

9 that's one of the ill effects, I would say, where if

10 we can't rely on industry standards that come or

11 have such a rich history from NIGC, I would hate to

12 see the state step in and attempt to do the same

13 thing like they did in California.

14 It's important to me that I can turn back

15 and say, wait a minute to the state. We have the

16 foundation already. We had to go look for that

17 foundation. That foundation was already established

18 a long time ago. All we have got to do is build

19 upon it and move forward. And again, the MICS is

20 important, because it addresses the advances in

21 technology. It's hard working out on the ground,

22 because technology is moving so fast. It's just

23 like your computer, it becomes obsolete the day that

24 you buy it, and there's always new software that

25 comes out, and trying to deal with that is pretty

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1 hard. But again, that comes through analyzing,

2 training, and taking a look at what those industry

3 standards are and what they mean and what they are

4 all about.

5 I think that about covers it for my

6 segment. Again, I would just like to thank you for

7 having the opportunity to make my comments. Again,

8 it's good to see the transparency and the

9 communication. We have a good, a pretty good

10 working relationship with Mr. Billingsley out of the

11 Southwest region. We appreciate his efforts.

12 And again, communication is very

13 important. It's important in the business

14 operations. It's important to the commissions.

15 It's important to the tribal leaders. The

16 information that they receive, how they analyze it,

17 how they can make things work better for themselves,

18 I think is what IGRA is about, it's about economic

19 development for the tribes.

20 And I think it's up to you to be there and

21 support us, to take our comments and help the tribes

22 make a better stance against a lot of the

23 congressional issues that are taking place right

24 now, and some of the legal issues that the tribes

25 face in the supreme court.

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1 We recently just had a court case that

2 went up to the docket, but it was declined. And

3 again, it was on Class III gaming devices.

4 It's so important that we follow those

5 internal controls. That's what keeps us safe. And

6 again, you know, that's the way I view it. That's

7 the way I have learned it. That's the way I

8 understand it, and I think it's not going to go

9 away. We need to work and look at the future to see

10 what is out there, to see how we can be better

11 players. You know, hopefully those advancements

12 will benefit the tribes in the end. Thank you.

13 CHAIR STEVENS: Thank you. Will Sandia be

14 submitting written comments do you think?

15 MR. APODACA: Yes.

16 CHAIR STEVENS: Wonderful. We want to

17 hear all of them.

18 Any other comments? Yes, sir.

19 MR. TOM WILSON: Just take a few more

20 minutes. Tom Wilson for the Pascua Yaqui Tribe. I

21 would like to comment on four things, follow-up on a

22 couple of issues of rebuttal.

23 With regard to the NIGC fee structure in

24 the calendar year versus fiscal year, we certainly

25 would prefer to go to fiscal year. That's where our

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1 accounting records are based on a fiscal year, end

2 of year. All of our effort, it would make it much

3 easier from a calculation standpoint to just include

4 that as part of our year end close process. Right

5 now we have a separate process, because of the

6 calendar year requirement, and it does create

7 problems for us. Namely sometimes it gets lost in

8 the weeds, that we have to pay this fee based on a

9 calendar year.

10 We actually discovered that we overpaid

11 for several years, because we were calculating

12 incorrectly, misunderstanding about the time period,

13 whether it was calendar year or fiscal year. So

14 from our standpoint, the fiscal year would make the

15 most sense and it just would align itself with our

16 accounting period.

17 Our suggestion on implementing that would

18 be that NIGC just go with an implementation date,

19 and then the tribes be allowed to prorate up to

20 their fiscal year period. So in some cases, the

21 tribe may just have a couple months worth of

22 payments to make to bring them to their current

23 fiscal year, and then they would be due again the

24 following fiscal year, but basically transition it

25 that way as opposed to just an 18 month window of

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1 trying to determine when you are going to implement

2 it. And it seems like that would be more definitive

3 for everybody from that standpoint.

4 Regarding the notice of violation, we

5 agree with what NIGC is suggesting here. Ourselves,

6 as a regulator, we issue a notice of concern prior

7 to a notice of violation. So what the notice of

8 concern allows us to do is bring an issue to the

9 attention of whomever management, in this case, or

10 the tribe, and allow them an opportunity to correct

11 it, knowing that if it doesn't get corrected, that

12 it will lead to a notice of violation. This way

13 there is that intermediary step.

14 A notice of concern is not a licensing

15 action for us, so it doesn't have the punitive

16 effect that a notice of violation would have, and we

17 find that it works very well. We very seldom -- I

18 don't know that we get to a point where we ever have

19 to issue a notice of violation, because the notice

20 of concern is dealt with appropriately. So I would

21 agree with the other comments, that the notice of

22 violation is kind of a death penalty thing, and

23 maybe that's not the most appropriate way to handle

24 every instance in that regard.

25 With regard to training, a comment on that

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1 is perhaps using technology more, web-based training

2 as a means to get training out there, I think that

3 would be very appropriate. And the technology

4 certainly is there and is very inexpensive now in

5 order to make that available to tribes. So that the

6 idea of traveling places, if we can do it via the

7 internet, it would certainly be beneficial for us as

8 well.

9 With regard to the fingerprinting issue,

10 we, of course, rely on NIGC. We just started using

11 NIGC this year for processing fingerprinting. Prior

12 to that, we were going through the State Department

13 of Public Safety. We use digital electronic

14 fingerprints, so that works very well with NIGC, and

15 we get our results back very timely. When we were

16 relying on the state, it would take anywhere from

17 three to six weeks to get any information back, of

18 course, and that wasn't terribly effective for us in

19 conducting background investigations.

20 The challenge we have, however, is that

21 with your current Memorandum of Understanding, just

22 dealing with key employees, we recognize that in our

23 ordinance, we could designate key employees, and

24 whoever we designate as key employees in the

25 ordinance, then technically we are allowed to run

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1 those through NIGC. For purposes of efficiency, we

2 would like to make everybody a key employee to be

3 able to utilize that system.

4 The problem we have with that, though,

5 that in our state compact, if we designate somebody

6 as a key employee, then the state compact says they

7 also have to be licensed by the state, which of

8 course we don't want to do. So our best solution is

9 that if we can utilize the NIGC system for all of

10 our background requirements, that would be most

11 efficient and effective for us.

12 Right now we have to utilize alternate

13 sources to do backgrounds for non-key employees, so

14 what happens is we delay a final licensing decision

15 pending a criminal background check coming back. In

16 some cases we go ahead and issue a conditional

17 license pending that. But nonetheless, it would be

18 simple for us to be able to run everything through

19 that system, and it seems like if we are talking

20 about the integrity of gaming, that everyone would

21 be in agreement that having the uniform system for

22 conducting background checks would make sense.

23 And there aren't a lot of other

24 alternatives out there. We have tried discussing

25 with other agencies, both state agencies, local law

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1 enforcement agencies, a means of trying to run the

2 criminal history FBI fingerprints through them, but

3 it's a very, very difficult process. There is a lot

4 of infrastructure that has to be put in place

5 between the tribe and the particular agency that you

6 are running these fingerprints through, security

7 issues, that the NIGC already having the process in

8 place, it makes the most sense to us that if that

9 could be expanded, it would be the least costly and

10 the most beneficial from our standpoint.

11 We don't necessarily have any position on

12 the tribal advisory committees other than what other

13 tribes have expressed, which is that those

14 committees be made up with fair representation so

15 that everybody has a voice on those committees,

16 either directly or indirectly through some kind of a

17 representation process.

18 That's all I have got. Thank you.

19 CHAIR STEVENS: Thank you very much.

20 Yes, sir.

21 MR. RANDALL VICENTE: Thanks, Chairwoman

22 Stevens. My name is Randall Vicente. I am the

23 Pueblo of Acoma governor this year. As you all

24 heard First Lieutenant Governor David Garcia's

25 comments, greetings to the governors and the other

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1 community commissioners. I want to thank you also

2 for this time and opportunity that you have given us

3 to speak with you in reference to issues and

4 concerns that the pueblo gaming tribes may have,

5 which certainly we do have.

6 Currently the Pueblo of Acoma has some

7 paperwork in the outline with you, and as we are

8 speaking, and I have heard other pueblos speak, I

9 would like for you to hold off on making signing it

10 for approval. At this point in time, I need to meet

11 with my attorney back here, our attorney who

12 represents us also, Joe Tennorio, and my tribal

13 council as well as my commission, my gaming

14 commission at the Sky City Casino. This is going to

15 give me a much broader, better decision making to

16 support what has already been submitted.

17 As I mentioned, what has been submitted,

18 the comments that the pueblo Indian tribes have made

19 here raise some issues and concerns for my

20 lieutenant and I. So hold off on the letter that's

21 on your desk or in your office, and as early as next

22 week, Monday or Tuesday, we will look at whether we

23 support the whole entire ordinance that's been

24 proposed changes, as opposed to if we need to make

25 some other inclusions or take out some of the

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1 wording that may not apply. So that's some

2 information I need to pass on to you. Thank you.

3 Thank you very much.

4 CHAIR STEVENS: Governor, I did check with

5 our general counsel's office while we were at lunch,

6 and that was actually one of the ordinances that he

7 has in the pipeline for me to sign.

8 MR. VICENTI: Right.

9 CHAIR STEVENS: And are you the new

10 governor?

11 MR. VICENTI: Yes, I am the new Pueblo of

12 Acoma governor, Randall Vicenti.

13 CHAIR STEVENS: So the ordinance that is

14 in front of me was passed by a previous.

15 MR. VICENTI: Yes.

16 CHAIR STEVENS: So let's talk off line and

17 let me understand what you are asking so I am clear,

18 because I don't want to stop something. I don't

19 want to misunderstand what you are saying about what

20 you would like to have done with that ordinance,

21 because it is ready to go. So if you want to

22 withdraw it, that's fine. Just we can talk off

23 line.

24 MR. VICENTI: We will talk.

25 CHAIR STEVENS: Yes, I have it so --

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1 In the absence, do you have one more? You

2 thought you were done but you have one more.

3 MR. WILSON: I'm sorry. I like to hear

4 myself talk.

5 One item that we need a point of

6 clarification on is dealing with the net revenues,

7 and the section that's talking about, should the

8 commission consider language that tribes should

9 first consider cash flow as, you know, in their

10 decision-making process in terms of disseminating

11 tribal funds, and I guess the question was there

12 that clearly the IGRA already specifies what those

13 funds can be used for. So in what context would a

14 regulatory sense be that the tribes would be -- if

15 they were considering cash flow, is this something

16 that would just be in the regulation, as you should

17 consider cash flow as part of your process of

18 thinking before you distribute funds or -- we are

19 just not fully understanding that question and the

20 intent of what you are trying to get at.

21 I mean, just part of it just seems very

22 logical that of course you would consider cash flow,

23 so maybe you can give a little background on what

24 this is referring to.

25 MS. ECHO-HAWK: When it was brought to our

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1 attention -- I am not an accountant by any means --

2 but the thought was that because net revenue, the

3 definition that net revenue can be used to base a

4 number things, like revenue sharing. Revenue

5 sharing is based on a calculation of net revenue as

6 it's defined, is there a way then for the tribe to

7 sort of include in as net revenue, so excludable

8 from say the percentage of net revenue that they

9 would have to share, et cetera, could they include

10 in their depreciation cap X monies, debt servicing.

11 Is there a way that sort of we can be creative with

12 the definition that allows that calculation to be

13 the most beneficial for tribes, because we have seen

14 in a number of instances where tribes, they have got

15 a revenue sharing agreement of some kind, even when

16 it comes to the management contracts, that

17 ultimately it ends up with the management company

18 gets their cut straight off the top, the state gets

19 their cut straight off the top. It doesn't take

20 into account the debt servicing, the cost of the

21 operation.

22 So is there a way that we can refine that

23 so the tribes get the most -- they can meet all

24 their obligations before they have to deal with the

25 revenue sharing, that kind of thing. That was the

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1 thought behind it. Did we phrase it correctly, it

2 might be a little fuzzy, but that was the intent.

3 If that's something that tribes want, then we would

4 love to hear some options or some ways to do that.

5 CHAIR STEVENS: I know many of the leaders

6 had to go today, and we appreciate the leaders that

7 have been able to stay. But also understand, too,

8 in talking to folks out in the hallway, that many

9 are staff in the back of the room who are

10 commissioners or regulators who may not necessarily

11 be in a place or in a position to speak for their

12 tribe, but are just here to listen today and bring

13 back information to their tribe and to their

14 commission so they can make recommendations.

15 I know many of you are here. It's a new

16 format and are sitting and listening, which goes to

17 the point of our being transparent so that you can

18 go online, you can see what's been said and recorded

19 over the past four consultations, and all eight

20 consultations will be posted on the website for your

21 viewing and maybe it will help inform your comments

22 as you put together your comments for your tribe.

23 So I am inclined to make a last call. Any

24 other burning desires to speak or last issues that

25 maybe you haven't thought of?

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1 Well, let me turn it over to Lael, and

2 then also to the commissioners if there is

3 additional information that we want to provide.

4 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Just reiterate,

5 logistically, comments can be submitted however you

6 need to submit them. Reg.review@nigc.gov, that's

7 the e-mail address. You can hand them to me. You

8 can mail them to us. Between Mark and I, we get

9 them up as soon as we get them. The transcripts

10 will be up as soon as we get them as well, in the

11 next couple weeks, I imagine.

12 Then finally, I know that a number of

13 tribes, someone mentioned here today, that you don't

14 want to lose the one on one contact with the

15 commission. There are a number of events where we

16 are going to be setting aside time for the

17 commission to meet with tribes individually out, you

18 know, in various conferences, et cetera, so you

19 still have that one on one interaction, that this

20 does not preclude that. If you do have individual

21 issues, you know, we try to accommodate them.

22 There is, on the contact us section of the

23 website, there is a form that you can fill out.

24 Fill it out, send it to Rita, who is our

25 administrative assistant, and as we begin planning,

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1 whether you are in DC or we begin planning our kind

2 of conference schedule, we will have time set aside

3 for you to meet one on one with the commission to

4 deal with your individual issues. That way you

5 don't have to air all your business in this kind of

6 format. So please utilize that, because you

7 definitely do not lose that contact with the

8 commission, and we look forward to speaking with you

9 then.

10 CHAIR STEVENS: Steffani, do you have

11 anything you want to wrap up with?

12 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: I appreciate the

13 opportunity that you have given us to listen today,

14 and you had some very good insights, and you have

15 some issues that we need to be mindful of as we go

16 through this process that are unique to the pueblos

17 and are unique to this area of the country. I

18 appreciate, again, your time.

19 The other thing is, sometimes it is easier

20 to get your comments to Ken or the survey that we

21 sent out. If you will take two minutes to respond

22 to the survey, it really will help us in looking at

23 what you need for training and technical assistance,

24 and it's very important to me. And again, if you

25 want to hand it to Ken. You know, whatever. We are

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1 not concerned about the method inasmuch as we are

2 concerned about getting your voice to us. So again,

3 thank you.

4 I have to get on a plane at 7:00 a.m. I

5 don't think I'm going to be very happy about this,

6 but thank you, and I really appreciate seeing so

7 many familiar faces.

8 CHAIR STEVENS: It looks like we have one

9 more comment.

10 MR. PETER GARCIA: Real quickly, this may

11 be for Ken. I'm not sure. I'm not sure if you have

12 training sessions that you have available. I can

13 see the format, if you will. And I know Joe Smith

14 only had a limited number of trainings, which is a

15 good thing, but we need more material like for slot

16 analysis. So if you can have that available so we

17 can get them from the region office or help us in

18 our travel expenses, so if you can provide that more

19 to us.

20 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: We do keep the

21 current catalog online on our website. If it's

22 helpful to you at all, it's got little descriptions

23 in it. If you want to spend some time with Ken and

24 go through and look at what we have currently, or

25 talk to him about what else we might need to do, and

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1 then Ken can certainly coordinate getting the right

2 people to you. I am wondering whether or not we

3 need to bring new commissions training out. So we

4 can also work with other entities to try to get you

5 what you need. So he is a wealth of information,

6 and we need to make sure that you know what we

7 offer.

8 MR. GARCIA: Okay.

9 CHAIR STEVENS: And your feedback on the

10 survey is going to help us reshape our catalog and

11 our curriculum, and that includes Joe's curriculum.

12 And we understand that we need better coordination

13 internally on providing training, which the survey

14 will help us do. And that's part of our review of

15 our program right now is better coordination, but

16 also levels of training. Not one size fits all, and

17 we know that you have turnover on your commissions,

18 at your agency, and your council, and there is

19 always somebody who is a beginner. There are

20 long-term people who are very advanced.

21 So when you provide your survey, please be

22 honest with us and let us know what you need, but

23 it's all meant to inform our revamping our technical

24 assistance and training to meet your needs. So it's

25 on the website, so please do fill out the survey.

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1 Dan.

2 COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Yes. I just want to

3 thank everyone for coming today and thanks for the

4 hospitality. As I look out the window here, I hope

5 you guys realize just what beauty you live around

6 every day. It's just remarkable. When Lael opened

7 the window, I was like, this is great.

8 So I just want to thank everybody again.

9 Is Mark Van Norman here? Wow, we got through a

10 whole meeting without Mark making a comment. But

11 anyway, thank you again and thank you for the

12 hospitality.

13 CHAIR STEVENS: Well, thank you all. I

14 want to thank the Santa Ana Pueblo. They have been

15 quite generous with their facility. It's beautiful.

16 I want to remind everybody, this is just the

17 beginning. We will not be perfect, but we will

18 endeavor to keep the communication going, do

19 follow-up, have responses to your comments. They

20 may all be posted in the federal register, how we

21 respond to everybody's comments, but we will

22 continue this dialogue. This is just the beginning.

23 I recall, you know, working for a tribe

24 and feeling like this was it. But this is just one

25 of many more steps to come as we collaboratively

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1 work to protect this industry, and your input is

2 vital for us to do this. So do please provide your

3 comments.

4 Thank you, again. Thanks to your tribes

5 for allowing you to come here and take time to

6 listen, to weigh in, and we wish you all safe

7 travels back home. Thank you very much.

8 (The meeting concluded at 3:01 p.m.)

9

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1 STATE OF NEW MEXICO)

2 COUNTY OF BERNALILLO)

3

4 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

5 I, Sally Peters, RPR, CCR #57, Certified

6 Court Reporter in the State of New Mexico, do hereby

7 certify that the foregoing pages constitute a true

8 transcript of proceedings had before representatives

9 of the Environmental Protection Agency, held in the

10 District of New Mexico, in the matter therein

11 stated.

12 In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set

13 my hand on January 24, 2011.

14

15

 __________________________

16 SALLY PETERS, RPR, CCR #57

 License Expires: 12/31/11

17 Bean & Associates, Inc.

 201 Third Street, Northwest

18 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102

19

20

21

22

23

24

25 (1464J)

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&

& 155:17

0

01 79:19 80:17

05 85:25

06 85:25

07 86:1

08 89:12

1

1 17:21 87:19

100 52:4 53:13

100,000 86:14

126:23

11 80:13,13

11:00 66:4,5,6

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12/31/11 155:16

120 109:13,20 110:1

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111:5 123:13

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12th 20:24 31:1

94:23 98:10

1300 1:14

14 124:21 134:16

1464j 155:25

15 6:18 66:3 107:4

17 104:22

18 139:25

18th 20:23

1999 80:20

1:45 107:4,7

1:52 107:9

2

2 30:13 70:17 87:23

20 54:12 84:15

86:21 88:19 116:16

2001 80:20

2004 85:25

2007 44:14 79:19

80:17,21 86:10 94:2

2008 25:8 78:8

89:19

201 155:17

2010 4:14 84:10

2011 1:11 78:9

155:13

21 1:11

22 90:1

24 155:13

25 92:21

28th 4:14

3

3 18:14,14 30:13

89:12

3,400 85:1 91:14

30 85:5 127:18

35 91:14

3:01 154:8

3rd 20:20 89:18

4

40 127:18

44 118:21

45 6:18 85:4

5

514 134:16

57 1:21 155:5,16

7

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8

8 86:9

85 85:2

86 20:25

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89th 44:4

9

90 43:24,25 62:8

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abided 53:24

able 3:14 5:11 7:5

7:11 16:10 31:8

44:20 51:10 74:12

90:15 95:13 99:7

104:6 106:3,18

107:11 119:6

128:19 142:3,18

148:7

absence 90:18 116:8

146:1

absolutely 51:23

accept 126:1

acceptable 135:3

accepted 134:23

access 25:23 26:3

73:22

accessible 21:20

accommodate

149:21

accommodating

119:19

accommodations

124:9

accompanied 31:19

accomplished 19:23

32:11

account 86:18

147:20

accountable 21:17

accountancy 86:8

accountant 147:1

accounting 69:6

83:7,9 134:23 139:1

139:16

accustomed 6:16

achieve 23:16

acoma 67:11,20

71:5 72:10 143:23

144:6 145:12

act 8:20 17:7,9

28:25 45:8 63:12,15

70:24 84:15,21

109:11 110:13

acted 87:5

action 26:19 140:15

actionable 47:19

actions 104:24

activities 120:4

activity 51:3,7,12

89:7,9

actual 25:22

ad 60:10 72:17,22

add 118:1

adding 74:9

addition 27:21

additional 51:14

68:11 127:12 149:3

additionally 17:7,13

25:4

address 7:19 11:7,9

11:18 14:16 22:6

34:18 35:24 37:6

42:23 43:9 45:6

53:19 56:22 74:19

94:6,7 117:23

122:10 130:15

149:7

addressed 19:18

25:13,16 35:6,19

62:18 65:7 127:11

addresses 15:7

136:20

adequate 27:10

adieu 4:4

adjust 18:3

adjustments 134:8

administration

10:16 17:14 90:5

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17:10 149:25

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53:12 89:19 90:4

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advance 8:5 63:20

131:7

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advancements

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36:11 46:3,9 57:16

57:18,24 60:9,10

64:2,5 70:19 72:14

72:17,22,23 73:8,10

78:5,6,7 99:25

112:17 113:2,14

132:20 143:12

advocate 53:1

113:12

affairs 93:12 105:1

affect 3:12 17:25

56:18 81:19 103:3

afford 89:5

afraid 13:10 86:21

afternoon 83:21

107:10,22 108:13

130:7

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18:16 19:2,5 30:14

88:4 103:15 142:25

142:25 143:1

agency 6:10 8:15

9:24 10:6,8 18:14

21:11 27:18 29:5

42:19 43:10 49:11

50:16 51:18 59:17

88:10 116:20 143:5

152:18 155:9

agenda 5:22 11:4

12:16 15:9 17:11

22:9,12 31:17 32:2

60:3,4 64:10 96:21

97:22 98:2,2

ago 127:19 136:18

agree 11:19 51:5

55:10,20 58:2,2,19

58:21 59:12 124:6

126:13,13 133:18

140:5,21

agreed 53:17

agreement 27:19

72:1 74:14 80:25

114:9,12,19,21

117:20 122:25

142:21 147:15

agreements 27:19

104:18 105:4

122:21

aguino 34:14

ahead 3:2,14,16 4:3

4:5 94:12 99:2

102:6 142:16

ahold 21:22,22

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132:18 134:19

aiming 63:21

air 8:2 150:5

albert 123:8,8

albuquerque 118:19

155:18

alcohol 37:20,23,24

alert 103:18

align 139:15

allocation 45:11

70:14

allow 15:8 140:10

allowable 68:18

69:13,14

allowed 7:18,18

50:15 76:24 139:19

141:25

allowing 13:11

25:23 105:21

123:18 126:7 154:5

allows 6:22 7:15

8:17 140:8 147:12

alludes 70:20

alternate 142:12

alternative 30:17

alternatives 18:23

116:9 142:24

amazing 17:23 57:3

ambiguous 51:13

52:1

amenable 115:7

amend 39:18

amended 39:12,16

39:23 44:16 63:17

amendment 71:6

amendments 44:14

ammunition 103:16

amount 13:23

117:14 125:11

128:14

ana 1:15 2:6 3:7,9

4:16 14:7 16:5

74:25 75:1,5 76:21

77:7 79:15 85:16

92:14,15 153:14

analysis 114:17

151:16

analyze 109:2

137:16

analyzing 137:1

ancestors 84:24

announcement

20:22

annual 72:6 94:21

annually 17:10

answer 34:3 64:19

77:6,7 121:19

answered 61:24

answers 35:24

anthony 85:11,13

85:22,23 92:13

anticipated 68:15

anybody 35:14 36:3

38:2 46:11,16 49:5

anyway 4:11 37:2

72:12 76:15 153:11

apache 123:10

126:16

apart 60:11 73:15

apodaca 123:8,9

129:17 138:15

apologize 44:7 97:1

97:8,12

apparently 84:2

133:5

appeal 18:11 24:4

appear 94:2

appendices 55:9,10

55:11

appending 53:13

applaud 87:8

application 23:15

85:25 86:3,9 87:2,8

87:24 89:4 90:2

93:10,15,22,24

applications 87:4,6

87:12 88:1,7,9,13

88:16,18,25 89:13

89:22 90:1

apply 50:3 78:25

145:1

applying 88:2

appoint 66:13 102:5

appreciate 13:16

14:2 15:16 33:12

42:9,12,13,21,22

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b

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Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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casinos 3:20 47:20

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Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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comment 19:21

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40:12 46:15 54:2,21

61:16 62:9,15 66:10

66:19 79:14 83:2

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142:5,6

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Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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16:12

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36:24 42:12 55:8

59:10 61:16 66:16

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84:4 108:2,15

121:15 138:22

139:21 149:11

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17:1,5 48:15 50:12

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54:8,14 79:20

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covered 15:23

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create 47:13 50:12

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h

hair 82:13

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hoping 112:10

hospitality 13:25

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hosting 4:17

hot 61:20 65:4

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instance 110:4

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[hoping - intact] Page 14

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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integrity 55:3

142:20

intended 18:5

intending 110:6

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70:1,2 146:20 148:2

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intermediary

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international

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issue 7:7,9,24,25 8:3

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issued 9:7 86:8

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issuing 26:19 110:6

item 146:5

items 3:21 51:2

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j

january 1:11 89:12

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jemez 83:24 84:6,22

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k

karis 108:8,12,13

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150:1,5

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18:9 21:19 22:3,22

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43:10,11 44:4 45:7

46:8,21 49:5,18

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Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
56:5,7 57:22,25

59:20,23 60:1,2,3,5

60:7,8,17 63:8,10

63:17,21 64:14 65:5

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knowing 7:7 68:22

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knowledgeable

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l

labor 118:2

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86:3,5,9,12,25

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located 85:3

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locked 95:3

[know - locked] Page 16

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lodging 37:19,22

logged 51:3,24

logic 90:11

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m

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meeting 2:5 4:17,23

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member 4:12 16:12

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members 1:17 64:5

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