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6 TRANSCRIPT OF CONSULTATION MEETING

7 NATIONAL INDIAN GAMING COMMISSION

8 NOTICE OF INQUIRY FOR REGULATION REVIEW

9 HELD AT THE RIVERWIND CASINO

10 IN NORMAN, OKLAHOMA, ON JANUARY 18, 2011

11 AT 9:00 A.M.

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24 Job No. NJ303773

25 REPORTED BY: D. LUKE EPPS, CSR, RPR

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1 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Good morning. If I

2 could have everyone take their seats, we'll go

3 ahead and get started. I apologize for the

4 delay in getting everybody through the line.

5 Okay. Before we begin, I'd like to turn over

6 the microphone to Governor Anoatubby of the

7 Chickasaw Nation.

8 BILL ANOATUBBY: Good morning,

9 everybody. It's a great day to be here in

10 Oklahoma at Riverwind. I'll take this

11 opportunity to welcome everybody to this

12 facility, to this consultation, and particularly

13 a place to welcome the commissioners of the

14 National Indian Gaming Commission. Let's give

15 them a nice welcome.

16 I think they've set a direction here that's

17 very important to all of us, to Indian Country,

18 to the commission by coming to tribal

19 facilities, and to come to the tribal facilities

20 and consult, and I think that's certainly an

21 important thing, and I think it's a move most

22 certainly in the right direction.

23 I won't take too long because I know that

24 you have some very important business to do

25 here. I'm a pre-IGRA tribal leader, and I'm

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1 sure there's some other folks in this room that

2 were here before the Indian Gaming Regulatory

3 Act. I remember when we were doing, quote,

4 "bingo," the kind where you move the slots over

5 and you dot the paper or whatever, and we still

6 do that, and our credibility was questioned, was

7 questioned by people around us. In fact, we had

8 some confrontations with some of the local law

9 enforcement over bingo.

10 When IGRA was passed, a lot of that was

11 still confrontational, but not quite the same

12 way. There was a question about the legitimacy

13 of gaming in Oklahoma particularly, and IGRA

14 changed a lot of that, and we had the National

15 Indian Gaming Commission there to help regulate.

16 That was the primary regulation followed by the

17 tribes. Even though it was legitimate before,

18 it's added a level of legitimacy. It's made our

19 life better.

20 Now, there's a fine balance that we have to

21 achieve when it comes to regulation. It's

22 important that we protect the interests of the

23 tribes. It's important that we protect the

24 interests of our patrons, and you could go too

25 far either way. You cannot have enough

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1 regulation or you could have too much. I think

2 it's important that we work together such as we

3 will be doing today to help achieve that

4 balance, to reach that mission of -- the tribes

5 rely upon the gaming dollars. It's important,

6 very, very important. Tribal government is

7 important, being able to have a good solid

8 foundation, a good financial foundation, but

9 also, and I guess maybe even more important is

10 the services that we provide as a result of the

11 gaming dollars.

12 So this is a very, very important meeting

13 that we're having here today, and I think it's

14 important that we apply ourselves to do the

15 kinds of things that we need to do to protect

16 the interests of our people, of our credibility,

17 and to achieve that balance that we so desire.

18 And, again, thank you very much for being here.

19 The Chickasaw Nation is honored and is very

20 privileged to be here having this meeting today,

21 and we also feel privileged and honored that we

22 have this group of tribal readers and tribal

23 representatives here in our facility. Thank you

24 very much.

25 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you, Governor

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1 Anoatubby. On behalf of the National Indian

2 Gaming Commission, we want to welcome everybody

3 and tell you my name is Tracie Stevens. I'm a

4 member of the Tulalip Tribe. I'm the chairwoman

5 of the National Indian Gaming Commission. I do

6 want to extend my sincere appreciation and the

7 appreciation of the entire commission and the

8 agency for the Chickasaw Nation hosting this

9 consultation.

10 You know, before the meeting we were having

11 a little chat with the governor, and he was

12 saying what an honor and privilege it was for

13 us, for the Chickasaws to have us here, and

14 really the truth is it's really a privilege and

15 an honor for us to come into your home land,

16 into your territory, and have you welcome us in

17 your home. So thank you very much for hosting.

18 This is a fabulous facility, and I understand

19 you have many others, and the invitation has

20 been extended to us to visit others, which we

21 hope we can do in our time in office.

22 I also want to recognize Vice-Chairwoman

23 Stephani Cochran, who is to my left, who is a

24 member of the Chickasaw Nation. We're in her

25 home, and also Dan Little who is the associate

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1 commissioner. You'll be hearing from both of

2 them in just a moment. Also I want to recognize

3 our staff who we have here. Over at the end of

4 the table is Lael Echo-Hawk. She is the

5 Counselor to the Chair, and she'll be

6 facilitating the meeting as we go through it.

7 Also from the Oklahoma office, many of you

8 know the staff that are here. We have Tom

9 Cunningham who is the R.D. He's right back

10 here. Y'all know him. Tony Wheeler, field

11 investigator, is back around there somewhere.

12 Dana Freeman, also a field investigator, is at

13 the table. Christie Jamison, who is an

14 administrative assistant.

15 From our Tulsa office we have Tim Harper who

16 is back here next to our transcriptionist, and

17 Marci Ober. I'm sure she's here. So they're

18 here and available if you need to chat with

19 them, but I do want to recognize them because

20 they've been preparing for this meeting and as

21 you saw signing everybody in. Before we move

22 forward with the meeting, I do want to reiterate

23 many of you heard this commission talk about our

24 four major initiatives, and will be the focus of

25 our time in office. We have four major

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1 initiatives, and I'll name them quickly and just

2 go over them and talk about how they pertain to

3 what we're doing today.

4 Our first priority is consultation and

5 relationship building. We understand and we

6 have heard some criticism from tribes rightfully

7 so about the NIGC past practices, and in keeping

8 with President Obama's direction to all

9 executive agencies to have meaningful dialogues

10 with tribes and consultations and collaboration

11 with tribes, we're going to be performing our

12 consultations differently than previously has

13 been done.

14 As you see, this is an open format so that

15 we can hear all of the tribes' concerns and

16 priorities, and also provide an opportunity for

17 tribes to give us some solutions together, and

18 just after three consultations last week on the

19 west coast, we are seeing that there are

20 different priorities for tribes or different

21 views from different tribes in different regions

22 naturally because, you know, gaming is different

23 for tribes in various regions.

24 So this also provides -- not only do we get

25 to hear your concerns, and we've heard some

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1 tribes who really appreciate being able to hear

2 the concerns of other tribes because they

3 thought maybe they were the only ones who had a

4 concern about something, but also afford

5 everyone the opportunity to provide some

6 solutions that would help all the tribes at the

7 table.

8 So this is an open forum. We do have tribal

9 leaders right around us here. If there are any

10 other tribal leaders that are a little shy back

11 there, we do have a few seats right up here with

12 us, but it's intended to give you the floor

13 today to tell us what your priorities are.

14 Now, before I move on, our other major

15 initiative -- I do want to say that as this is

16 different from our previous consultation

17 formats, the individual meetings, we certainly

18 don't expect tribal leaders or tribes to have to

19 talk to us in this open forum about their

20 specific tribal issues, whether it's a

21 regulatory body or operational concerns, any

22 issues you might have that's only specific to

23 your tribe.

24 We do meet with tribes outside of these

25 meetings at tribal request. We do make

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1 ourselves available, but we certainly don't

2 expect nor do we want you to feel like you have

3 to air your particular tribe's issues here, just

4 so you know that, but generally with this new

5 consultation format, it is meant to be

6 collaborative. It is meant for all of us to

7 work together on common ground, and work to a

8 common goal.

9 Our second initiative is technical

10 assistance and training, and that is statutorily

11 mandated as many of you know, but it should be

12 more than that. We should be trying to improve

13 regulatory oversight from the primary regulator

14 standpoint. What can we be doing to help tribes

15 better protect gaming operations and to align

16 our program to the needs of the tribes?

17 Now, this is something that Stephani Cochran

18 is heading up for the commission, and there is a

19 survey out that was posted last Thursday on our

20 website asking tribes and regulators and

21 operators what training do you need and what

22 improvements can we make so you can create a

23 better catalog that fits the needs of the

24 tribes.

25 So that's out, and within 24 hours last

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1 Friday, we had 30 responses just within 24

2 hours. So I encourage everybody to go online.

3 It was e-mailed, we faxed it, we put a press

4 release out, it's on the website so you can fill

5 it out on our website and send it in. So please

6 do participate in that particular survey so we

7 can get a better gauge of what it is that you

8 need from us. The third initiative, agency

9 operations review. We're doing an internal

10 review of our operations in the agency.

11 Management of the agency, the organization and

12 structure of the agency, budgeting for the

13 agency, and trying to create some accountability

14 or some transparency to tribes because if we're

15 really concerned about how you're running your

16 operation, you should be really concerned about

17 how we're running our operation, and that you

18 should know that good practice, good government

19 is to allow the public, you, who we serve to

20 know how we're conducting our business.

21 And the final one, which is the topic of

22 today's consultation is regulatory review.

23 During my nomination process, I committed to

24 doing sort of an overview of the current

25 regulations and examination of past regulations

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1 that were in effect, to look at the relevance of

2 regulations as we come into office, and that's

3 what we're doing. That's the discussion of

4 today's topics.

5 I do want to say this is not intended to be

6 a line by line drafting session, but more over

7 priorities, which regulations in what order,

8 what level of priority, and how should we go

9 about addressing regulatory change or

10 improvement, and we want to have tribes help us

11 set this agenda and set the priority. We don't

12 want to be off doing something that's not really

13 helpful to you or to the industry. You should

14 have a say right from the beginning about what

15 we're doing, and some of the regulations will be

16 sort of a bigger item to get your arms around

17 like the MICS. Others may be smaller that we

18 can make some technical changes to and move

19 through quickly, but we will be having a

20 transparent process. We want to hear from you

21 today, what your priorities are in terms of

22 regulatory review, or any changes that need to

23 be made so we know where to focus our attention,

24 because after all, we're only here -- this

25 commission technically will only be here for

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1 another two and a half years, less time for

2 Vice-Chairwoman Cochran who's already been in

3 office for a year. I was the last one to come

4 in, so I'm going off of the far end of the time

5 that we have, and so setting priorities is

6 important for us, and your inclusion in those

7 priorities is incredibly important to us so that

8 we stay focused.

9 Before we move on to the rest of the

10 comments and Lael actually, I will turn the

11 microphone over to the other commissioners.

12 VICE-CHAIRWOMAN COCHRAN: Good morning.

13 Can you hear me? I'm going to stand up because

14 I'm not a very tall woman. I can't see you.

15 Governor Anoatubby, thank you for allowing us to

16 come out and make us feel so welcome. Thank you

17 for that. There's many chiefs here, many other

18 governors and chairmen and tribal leaders, and

19 it's also an honor and privilege for me to

20 address you. I hope to be a good listener.

21 There's many experts in this room. The Oklahoma

22 tribes here have so much expertise in gaming,

23 and we hope to be good listeners and hear what

24 your needs are, and so I hope to be a good

25 listener to you today.

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1 Finally, it's always good to be home. This

2 is home. I live in D.C. now. It's my second

3 trip. It's very different, so it's nice to be

4 home. Chairwoman Stevens and Commissioner

5 Little are amazing people to work with. They

6 have a lot of great ideas. They have a lot of

7 inspirational commitment to the well-being of

8 gaming. It's quite a privilege also to serve

9 with them as well, so thank you for allowing us

10 to be here, and I'll turn it over to Mr. Little.

11 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Good

12 morning, everyone. I just want to be very

13 brief. We are very happy to be here. Governor,

14 thank you for the hospitality. This is a

15 wonderful place, beautiful hotel. If you

16 haven't stayed here, I strongly recommend it. I

17 just want to talk about the NOI very quickly.

18 The questions that are in the NOI are derived

19 from, you know, our staff, the commission,

20 tribal leaders, and one thing I want you to

21 remember as we go through this is that these are

22 just questions.

23 Also if there's a particular issue,

24 regulatory related issue that's not covered,

25 then bring it up. So as we go along, I'm very

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1 interested in hearing from the tribes. So once

2 again, thank you for the invitation to come out

3 here. I'm very happy to be here and look

4 forward to hearing from all of you. Thank you.

5 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you, Stephani

6 and Dan for your comments, and I also want to

7 recognize former commissioners that are here,

8 like Liz Homer is here, and before I turn it

9 over to Lael, again, I want to reiterate that

10 today is for us to hear from you. Lael will go

11 through just sort of a 30,000 foot review of the

12 NOI, but we're doing this so that we can talk

13 about the need for changes with regard to tribal

14 priorities, and to talk about that, talk about

15 those priorities before we initiate the meeting.

16 This is a new mechanism for this agency, and

17 Lael will talk about that more, but we do want

18 to hear from you today.

19 Again, welcome. We look forward to your

20 comments, you know, and even if you have some

21 comments about this process, we'd like to hear

22 from you. We were trying to be as inclusive as

23 we could and also to be respectful to tribes by

24 giving the floor the majority of the day to

25 tribal leaders, and to just open it up. We had

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1 one person in one of the consultations say that

2 they prefer to go line by line in the Notice of

3 Inquiry, but we also appreciate that tribal

4 leaders have very, very busy schedules, far

5 busier than ours will ever be because you have

6 to take care of an entire community and an

7 entire government, and oftentimes tribal

8 representatives or leaders will come and just

9 provide their comments and go on with the rest

10 of their day, and so we do keep it open for

11 flexibility, but if you do have comments on this

12 process or changes or improvements you'd like to

13 see, we certainly are open to those. So, again,

14 we look forward to working collaboratively

15 together to set this agenda, and we look forward

16 to your comments. I'm going to turn it over to

17 Lael who is down here on the right or my right

18 to bring you through an overview of the Notice

19 of Inquiry.

20 LAEL ECHO-HAWK: Good morning. Can

21 everyone hear when everyone was talking? Okay.

22 Good. Thank you. My name is Lael Echo-Hawk. I

23 am a member of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma.

24 I'd like to acknowledge President Howell from

25 the Pawnee Nation. I appreciate him coming down

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1 here. I'm very happy to be in Oklahoma. This

2 is stop four on our tour with the commission.

3 We keep joking that we're going to get tour

4 t-shirts or something. I haven't seen them so

5 far. We'll see what happens, but, again, thank

6 you all for coming.

7 I'm going to run really quickly through this

8 so that we can get to your comments. The

9 e-mail, and you'll see this at the end as well,

10 but I emphasize the e-mail address

11 reg.review@nigc.gov. This is where you can send

12 comments throughout this process. You can send

13 us comments, substantive comments about the NOI.

14 That is the best way to contact me directly

15 about the regulations and the NOI review.

16 So why regulatory review? IGRA obviously

17 requires that the NIGC enact -- put together

18 some regulations in order to implement the act.

19 Additionally there are some requirements such as

20 the Executive Order "Regulatory Planning and

21 Review" and the Regulatory Flexibility Act.

22 They require administrative agencies to put

23 together an administrative or a regulatory

24 review every year, and it's been on a

25 semi-annual basis. So realizing that, we

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1 thought this would be a good opportunity for us

2 to come out into Indian Country and take a look

3 at our regulations and set the agenda that will

4 come out in April.

5 Consultation, as the chairwoman indicated,

6 consultation is very, very important to this

7 agency. It's our number one priority, and we

8 firmly believe and support President Obama's

9 mandate that we consult with tribes meaningfully

10 and engage in dialogue before we make a decision

11 that will affect this industry.

12 One of the sections of the consultation

13 Executive Order, Section 3(c)3, says that even

14 before -- before we determine whether or not to

15 set federal standards, that the agency shall

16 consult with tribes and to listen, help us make

17 decisions based on input that we receive from

18 you, and this is something that's been very

19 important to the commission, and it's what the

20 intent of this Notice of Inquiry is.

21 So what is a Notice of Inquiry? It's a tool

22 used by a number of administrative agencies.

23 I've never seen it used in the context of an

24 agency consulting with tribes, but it is

25 something that's used often by other

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1 administrative agencies like the Federal

2 Communication Agency -- or Federal Communication

3 Commission, the copyright office, et cetera, and

4 what it does is it puts some questions out to

5 the individuals or industries affected by these

6 regulations, and it says, okay, we've heard some

7 issues. We've heard some concerns. Give us

8 your feedback so we can figure out which

9 direction we need to go, and it's really a way

10 to solicit some input, some guidance before we

11 move forward drafting regulations or policies.

12 So this NOI asks three primary questions:

13 What regulations, in what order, and how do we

14 do it. So we're on stop number four. We're

15 here in Oklahoma. Later on this week we'll be

16 in Albuquerque, and then we go to D.C. next

17 week. The following week we'll be in South

18 Dakota and Florida, but we really wanted to make

19 sure that we hit all the regions as we travel,

20 and we came out into Indian Country.

21 The NOI published November 18th. The

22 comment period closes on February 12. That's a

23 Saturday, but that's the last day. It's an

24 86-day comment period. You can, again, get your

25 comments to us any way you need to. You can

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1 e-mail, you can fax, you can snail mail, pony

2 express, smoke signal, whatever you need to do.

3 We really want your comments, so please get them

4 to us.

5 All written comments and the consultation

6 transcripts are going to be posted on the

7 website. I've already received one transcript

8 from the transcriptionist from one of last

9 week's meetings, and so I anticipate by the end

10 of this week, we'll have one or two of those

11 transcripts on the website. You can go take a

12 look at those. There are a few comments already

13 posted, but as soon as they come in, we get them

14 on the website so everyone sees what other

15 people are saying and where the comments are

16 going.

17 So as I go quickly through the substance of

18 the NOI, something that's important to remember

19 as Commissioner Little mentioned as well is

20 these are suggestions only. These are issues

21 that we've heard and topic areas that we've

22 heard as we were consulting over the summer as

23 we had individual meetings with tribal leaders

24 and commissioners in our offices or at various

25 conferences, but these are not issues that the

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1 commission has taken a position on. That's why

2 we're here. We're here to ask you for some

3 assistance in setting the priorities and coming

4 up with a plan for how we move forward in

5 revising any of these regulations.

6 So the NOI goes through a number of

7 sections. Part 502, which is the definition

8 section, including looking at the definition of

9 net revenues, management contracts. We've heard

10 some comments about the net revenues definition,

11 and some thought is going into whether or not we

12 need to revise or take a look at the use of net

13 gaming revenues bulletin that was issued in

14 2005, and so it's something we're looking for

15 some input from tribes on.

16 The fees section, there's a couple of things

17 in there that we looked at or that we heard

18 about including a certain ticketing system in

19 lieu of NOVs, when late fees are issued. The

20 self-regulation regulation. I like saying that.

21 It's whether or not the burden of getting a

22 self-regulation certificate is worth sort of the

23 benefit and we've heard quite a bit about those

24 over the past three meetings. Part 523, we've

25 heard that that is obsolete and maybe should be

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1 just be removed entirely. Management contracts

2 is a very big issue and we've heard a number of

3 comments about these particular sections, and

4 look forward to any comments that you might have

5 as well.

6 Proceedings before the commission. One of

7 the other concerns we've heard is that there's

8 some concerns about due process and about the

9 length of time it takes for someone when they're

10 filing an appeal before the commission, and

11 whether or not we should draft regulations that

12 provide some clear guidance on that process and

13 how it should work and how much time it should

14 take.

15 The big issue, the hot issue is the MICS,

16 Class II, Class III, the technical standards.

17 What should the commission do with the Class III

18 MICS that are now regulatory form in spite of

19 the fact that IGRA never gave the NIGC authority

20 to enforce or promulgate Class III regulation?

21 They are in regulation form now. We need to

22 figure out what to do with them and whether or

23 not we update them. Class III MICS is a very

24 big issue. Class II MICS as most of you know,

25 there was a tribal advisory committee that was

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1 reviewing Class II MICS and technical standards

2 over the past couple of years, and it's sort of

3 out there pending. What do we do with that

4 current draft of regulations? So that's the

5 issue that's gotten the most attention over the

6 past couple of years, but it certainly is not

7 the only issue that this commission wants to

8 address over the next couple of years.

9 The pilot program for background

10 investigations for licensing, a number of tribes

11 here in Oklahoma participate in that program,

12 and we've heard -- our staff thought that it

13 might make some sense to put that into a

14 regulation form. Allowing access to tribes for

15 fingerprinting for non-primary management

16 official or key employees. Just access to the

17 fingerprinting process that we have.

18 Part 559, the facility licensing regulation,

19 that's something that we've heard at every

20 meeting needs to be looked at, and perhaps

21 reopened and reconsidered again. Access and

22 inspection of records that may be held off site.

23 For example, management companies often have

24 records from a tribal facility at their location

25 that are not necessarily a tribal facility, and

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1 we've heard that perhaps we need to clarify that

2 the NIGC has the authority to subpoena those

3 records at the request of tribes or at the

4 request of the NIGC.

5 Enforcement proceedings, we've heard a

6 number of concerns about these regulations

7 including whether or not the chairwoman should

8 have the authority to withdraw an NOV after it's

9 been issued.

10 So those are sort of the regulations that

11 are currently in our regulations and our

12 structure. We have a couple of other things

13 that kind of came up and may or may not end up

14 as new regulations. Again, looking for some

15 input from tribes. That includes the Tribal

16 Advisory Committee or other methods to include

17 tribal comments when drafting a regulation. As

18 you know, the Tribal Advisory Committee process

19 has been sort of controversial in the past

20 couple of years, and we want to figure out a way

21 to make sure that tribal input is included in a

22 meaningful way, that it's done fairly, and that

23 when that input is received, that it is

24 representative of the industry and the tribes

25 around the country.

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1 Sole proprietary interest. This is

2 something that's come up before the commission

3 very frequently lately. We've had a number of

4 tribes coming to us asking us to make a

5 determination about whether or not a contract or

6 a number of contracts violate sole proprietary

7 interest provisions of IGRA, and it's a good

8 question, and we need to figure out a way to

9 address that issue in a way that assists tribes,

10 provide some clarity to vendors and contractors

11 as they come in, and that may also include a

12 definition of primary beneficiary. That's a

13 comment that we heard in San Diego. So that's

14 something that we're also taking a look at.

15 Communication process policy. One of the

16 concerns that we hear, and we really try very

17 hard putting out this NOI to communicate as

18 broadly as possible press releases, mail, tribal

19 leader letters, e-mail, putting things on the

20 website, but how do we communicate with you and

21 who do we communicate with? I worked at a tribe

22 for six and a half years before moving to

23 Washington, D.C., and I know that a lot of times

24 tribal leaders' mail gets -- things sort of get

25 lost in the mail or things that come to the

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1 gaming commission may not make it to the tribal

2 council or vice versa. We want to make sure

3 that every person at your tribe who needs to

4 know what's going on at the commission has that

5 information, and so how do we do that? So

6 that's something that we really would love to

7 hear from tribes on because we want to make sure

8 that we're communicating with you in a

9 meaningful way.

10 The Buy Indian Act, most you I'm sure know

11 that the industry, the gaming industry, there's

12 a movement for tribal gaming facilities to buy

13 products from each other, and when it comes to

14 procurement and the federal government, we

15 thought it might be a good idea to formalize

16 this into a regulation much like HHS has done.

17 So once again these are only suggestions.

18 The commission hasn't taken a position on how

19 we're going to do this, on which direction we're

20 going to go, and we really, really are looking

21 for input from you. One of my concerns is, I've

22 sort of been taxed with heading this process up,

23 is how do we address all of the issues that were

24 raised in the NOI or other issues that might be

25 raised by tribes? How do we address all of

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1 those without getting bogged down in the MICS?

2 So if you have some thoughts about that, please

3 let us know. We're committed to this process,

4 and we want to make sure that we get as much

5 done in this short amount of time that we have

6 as possible. We want to make sure that we can

7 accomplish a lot, and we don't want to get

8 bogged down on one issue over another even

9 though the MICS, for example, is a very

10 important issue.

11 So going back to the executive order, same

12 section, (c)3 or (c)2, I guess, says that where

13 possible, the agencies shall defer to tribes to

14 establish standards. That's something that

15 we've really been looking at and considering

16 that if tribes submit some sort of alternative

17 to a regulation to us, then we have to defer to

18 them. That's Executive Order 13,175. So we are

19 looking for that from tribes as well.

20 So, finally, comment period closes on

21 February 12th. Everything is going to be posted

22 online. The commission is really dedicated to

23 accountability or transparency, openness so that

24 everything that we have that pertains to this

25 issue is going to be on the website. If you go

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1 to the nigc.gov website, on the left-hand side,

2 there's a button called Tribal Consultation. If

3 you click that, it goes to another button called

4 Regulatory Review. When you click that button,

5 everything related to this process is on there,

6 all the press releases, the notice of inquiries,

7 the agenda for this meeting, the PowerPoint for

8 this meeting, comments received, transcripts

9 from these hearings, everything will be online.

10 So please go there and review that information.

11 Again, you can send comments to

12 reg.review@nigc.gov, and that goes straight to

13 me. So the commitment by the commission and by

14 myself, every comment that's received will be

15 looked at and evaluated. We take very seriously

16 the things that we hear from Indian Country.

17 The regulatory agenda does come out in

18 April. It will include sort of like a preamble

19 or an explanatory statement identifying how we

20 came up to the decisions that we came to. You

21 know, if we disagree about some comments that

22 tribes gave some input regarding which, you

23 know, priority or which regulations to address

24 first or et cetera, we'll have an explanation

25 there for why we took the direction that we did.

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1 Again, this is trying to be as open and

2 accountable to the industry and to tribes as

3 possible.

4 The agenda will be finalized in April.

5 You'll likely hear about it at the NICA annual

6 meeting. Then that's when the substantive work

7 really begins. That's when we begin going line

8 by line and taking a look at the regulations and

9 doing the substantive work to get these

10 regulations updated and address some issues that

11 have been pending for a while.

12 So logistically these consultations are

13 being reported and transcribed, so that means we

14 need everyone who speaks to speak into a

15 microphone. Please state your name and the

16 tribe or organization that you represent. If we

17 can't hear you, you will probably be asked to

18 restate your name. We have a microphone here.

19 We have a microphone -- two microphones at the

20 table. So this microphone, I'll have it over

21 here, so people in the audience, if you want to

22 make some comments, the microphone will be up

23 here so that you can do that, and we can make

24 sure that it's recorded. So other than that, we

25 will turn the microphone over to you.

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1 STEVE ORTIZ: Hi. I'm Steve Ortiz. I'm

2 the chairman of the Prairie Band Potawatomi. I

3 take it at this point after reading your post in

4 the Federal Register, all the comments that you

5 made in the Register, I would just like to point

6 out that it just seems that we need to begin by

7 deciding what the Tribe Advisory Committee is

8 going to be because your actions in here speak

9 of Tribal Advisory Committees. My experience in

10 the past over about the past 13 years with

11 Indian agencies is that with the Interior and

12 HHS, they usually have representatives from each

13 of their regions. They usually have a primary

14 and an alternate and take that on to be their

15 primary focus for these Tribal Advisory

16 Committees. So this way there's inclusion of

17 everybody. In the past, there's only two or

18 three. That's not enough inclusion. So I think

19 we need to begin a discussion on the selection

20 of the Tribal Advisory Committee and how that

21 will be established. Thank you.

22 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you. We may

23 have to turn this microphone down. We've

24 actually heard from other areas that actually

25 brought up the, and many of you may be aware,

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1 those that are self-governance tribes, the

2 Tribal Budget Advisory Committee, TBAC. The BIA

3 uses that, and also DOI has it in their

4 consultation team. They follow a similar model

5 where it's left to the regions to decide who

6 will represent their region, and there's no

7 dictating to the region how they select someone

8 and their alternate. We don't get in there and

9 decide for you. That's been one suggestion, and

10 it sounds similar to what you were mentioning to

11 the chairman. We're open to comments on tribal,

12 you know, how to construct them, when to use

13 them. Sometimes we may not need to use them.

14 How do we bring in industry experts? Any other

15 -- and I do want to defer to tribal leaders

16 first just out of respect for their positions

17 and their time today.

18 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Just a

19 follow-up. One of the other I think kind of

20 issues that has -- I don't want to say the

21 commission stumble on is the advisory committee

22 and how do we also make sure that different

23 segments of the industry are represented,

24 whether it be Class II or Class III because just

25 having someone from a region may miss a segment

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1 of that, so, I mean, it would be interesting in

2 asking that question and any kind of ideas on

3 that.

4 TOM GAMBLE: Thank you. I'm Tom Gamble

5 with the Miami Tribe of Oklahoma, and many of

6 you know how unique Oklahoma is to Indian

7 Country. You know, a lot of what we're doing

8 today is figuring out really who we deal with as

9 far as Indian Affairs or NIGC because sometimes

10 I feel like it's an NIGC type of an issue and

11 it's not really Indian Affairs. So how closely

12 does the NIGC and staff work with the Indian

13 Affairs? And if there is an up-close

14 relationship with them, should a person from

15 Indian Affairs be included on the consultation?

16 Thank you.

17 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: We do work pretty

18 closely with Interior as many of you know. The

19 authorities are divided between the secretary

20 and the chair, and, you know, in terms of what

21 we're doing in this process with regard to

22 regulations, it may just be an agency that will

23 be here. I'm trying to think of instances where

24 Indian Affairs might be involved. They cover

25 the compact approvals. You know, we do partner

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1 with them. I know that has not always been the

2 case in the past with regard to Indian land

3 determinations, but in support of President

4 Obama's good government, you know, we should as

5 a federal government be working with other

6 agencies collaboratively and not butting heads

7 with them, and so we should be working together

8 and really so that we're not creating

9 inconsistent guidelines or creating inconsistent

10 policies from one Indian agency to another

11 Indian agency, but certainly would consider if

12 there's a place for them in what we do, although

13 oftentimes they don't in most circumstances.

14 They share information. When they approve a

15 compact, they let us know, and as I said on

16 Indian land determinations, we do have an

17 understanding with them so that we can create a

18 consistent determination rather than competing

19 or getting a contradictory determination from

20 one agency to the other.

21 JAMIE HUMMINGBIRD: I'm Jamie

22 Hummingbird. I'm with the Cherokee Nation

23 Gaming Commission, and I want to say first of

24 all to thank the governor for hosting this

25 meeting in such a fine establishment. Also I

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1 want to say thanks to the commission for having

2 this consultation simply because I think this is

3 a process that has been sort of needed for a

4 long time to give the floor to the proper person

5 which is our tribal commissioner, but also to

6 undertake a real listening process and find

7 exactly what it is the tribes need on a

8 day-to-day basis, and as we go through this,

9 you'll see these comments I'm sure across the

10 country.

11 When we look at the questions that have been

12 posed by NIGC, I think you'll find kind of a

13 mixed bag in the sense that there are some

14 things that need to be revisited. There are

15 some things that if it's not broken, don't fix

16 it, okay, but one of the things that kind of

17 stands out maybe as an underlying issue for a

18 lot of these questions is when we're looking at

19 developing regulations or we're looking at

20 developing standards, I think you should keep

21 the actual goal or the actual meaning of what

22 words we're using in mind in the sense that a

23 standard is a standard, a goal to be attained.

24 It is a place that we want to be. How do you

25 get to that place is something that is going to

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1 be fairly unique.

2 Oklahoma is very unique, not to say that any

3 other tribe or any other part of the country is

4 not, but one of the things that we have been

5 saying for years, we being tribes, is that when

6 we come to issues such as the Class II MICS or

7 Class III MICS or the technical standards, when

8 we look at those types of documents, it is

9 something that I think the NIGC should consider

10 taking a little bit of a step back from in the

11 sense that the way the MICS are written out, we

12 have a lot of what I call SOPs, standard

13 operating procedures, just a lot of step by step

14 processes and a lot of requirements. Not

15 necessarily standards to be attained, but

16 telling us how we get there, and one of the

17 things that we have voiced for a number of years

18 is the fact that the tribes themselves need to

19 be the voice to decide, okay, how we get to that

20 point because of our unique standards, because

21 of our unique situation, whether it be

22 geographical, economic or otherwise. So when

23 you look at these, I think you need to -- when

24 you see these comments, I'm sure you can take a

25 step back and look at it from that 30,000 foot

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1 view rather than the 10,000 foot view.

2 And as you go through this and as you decide

3 what your agenda is going to be, I would also

4 bring up an issue that came up as we were going

5 through the developing of the technical

6 standards, and that is the issue of cost to

7 benefit. When we were looking at the issue of

8 throwing out technical standards for tribes and

9 the vendors to comply with, it was not until

10 close to the very end of that process that

11 everybody called attention to the fact that the

12 proposed standards or rules that were being

13 promulgated would have cost a lot more to the

14 tribes versus the benefit that was going to be

15 gained from that.

16 So as you go through and look at your

17 agenda, I would also encourage you to step back

18 and study is there a cost that's going to

19 outweigh the benefits of this or is it vice

20 versa. If the cost outweighs the benefit of

21 enacting a regulation or a standard, then

22 perhaps a bulletin may be the best way to handle

23 it. Come up with best practices and some

24 suggestions and let the tribes go out and

25 determine what pieces they can use and should

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1 use for their respective operations. Thank you.

2 STEVE ORTIZ: I just wanted to make a

3 comment because in talking with tribal council

4 before coming here, you know, since 1988 and

5 prior to the past Bush Administration, the

6 Prairie Band were a little confused. We felt

7 IGRA was working, and it seemed like there were

8 just little quirks in everything that

9 differentiated problems between the tribes in

10 Kansas and the tribes in Oklahoma. Having

11 different versions of gaming was the only

12 difference, so we really haven't seen -- we

13 really don't understand why there's even a

14 review of any due process, but it seems like

15 everything has been working for us, but we

16 understand there's some difference in the Class

17 III down here, maybe some other parts of the

18 country, but what I've seen, you know, like

19 through -- I've gone to Topeka and talked with

20 tribes in Wisconsin. I'm just kind of

21 wondering. Everybody seems to be operating and

22 wondering why are we even doing this, and until

23 the Bush Administration pushing this thing, it

24 just seems like the same thing is at the

25 forefront, and we were constantly battling -- we

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1 were battling -- we didn't know what -- joining

2 with other tribes just simply the principle of

3 trying to push it on us, joining with them. So

4 I often wonder, you know, sometimes maybe the

5 Tribal Advisory Committee just to maybe define a

6 purpose of what it is we all even need to be

7 looking at because, like I said, the gaming for

8 us in Kansas is different than the gaming down

9 here in Oklahoma. The issue of bulletins, I

10 have to agree, the bulletin, it's a much more

11 cost-effective way of doing things. So I just

12 wanted to throw that out there because I'm

13 really trying to understand now why we want to

14 change anything if everything has been working

15 already, and I really don't see anything that's

16 broken. I really don't see anybody's casinos

17 getting shut down for violations and not

18 following their practices. The gaming

19 commissions throughout Indian Country seem to

20 have a lot of integrity and enforcing gaming

21 laws and doing their inspections and so forth.

22 So we're not sure if this is just a special

23 interest thing for a few, but as far as the fees

24 and all this good stuff, we've been on both

25 sides of the fence, but under IGRA, the way

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1 things are set up right now, we've not seen any

2 issues. So I just wanted to point that out as

3 we started looking at this whole picture

4 overall.

5 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you for your

6 comment, Chairman, and actually that's exactly

7 why we're talking because we know that the last

8 administration, you know, there were certain

9 things that were priorities to them. New

10 administrations come in and have different

11 priorities, and as a result of that there seems

12 to have been a lot of attention on certain

13 issues at the NIGC like MICS. It's not the same

14 across the board, which personally from my point

15 of view, that's always been the issue. It's

16 hard to, you know, aside from Class II, you have

17 28 states, 233 tribes, 400 something facilities

18 with all these different compacts. You know,

19 Class III MICS got a lot of attention, and that

20 attention is still here. If you listened to my

21 nomination hearing and you listened to the July

22 hearing, that was still up here. They were

23 bringing in the former chair to talk about it

24 still.

25 So we do want to address it. We have to

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1 address it, but we need to hear from everybody.

2 It's interesting because going -- this is our

3 fourth city in a week. It's different. You're

4 right. There may be some places where, hey,

5 it's not broken. Don't try to fix something

6 that's not broken for us, but it is broken for

7 some tribes. In some areas they've never even

8 heard of that, but we, for example, the Class

9 III, you know, they may not have the best

10 relationship with their state, and, you know,

11 having the NIGC step in is their preference.

12 Not the case when we went to Washington.

13 Washington State said no thanks. We're good.

14 We're happy with our state. We have a good

15 relationship.

16 So we're here today so we can hear all these

17 differences and try to figure this out together.

18 It's really going to be a question of mechanisms

19 on that particular issue, but also so that we

20 don't burn a lot of time getting hung up with

21 something that may not necessarily affect every

22 tribe and have that suck all the air out of the

23 room and all of our time out from under us.

24 So I appreciate your comments and your

25 candor, and, you know, hope that other tribes

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1 understand why we're here. Whether you have

2 certain issues with our regulations or you

3 don't, it's good to hear we're good, we don't

4 have a problem, and try to be as inclusive as

5 possible.

6 VICE-CHAIRWOMAN COCHRAN: Mr. Chairman,

7 also there are a few opportunities that we've

8 not capitalized upon fully that I think tribes

9 would benefit from. One of them that comes to

10 my mind right now is the self-regulation regs.

11 They may not be harming you in any way. I'm

12 hoping even if your tribe doesn't have the same

13 distinct issues with something in existence,

14 maybe you'll participate and work with us on

15 capitalizing on some of those untapped areas

16 that I think would benefit.

17 EDMORE GREEN: Good morning. I'm Edmore

18 Greene of the Sac and Fox Nation in Kansas, and

19 I am pleased to be here with some of my fellow

20 representatives and our chairman and our gaming

21 commissioner, and myself as a tribal council

22 member and with our commission chair. Some of

23 the comments, some of them maybe aren't broken,

24 but they need to be reviewed or changed. A lot

25 of our tribes, we rushed into this business

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1 because we needed revenue for our tribe, but

2 today we want to sustain the revenue, so we need

3 to rework these things. We need to rework them,

4 and in coming down here, we debated the issue

5 that pertains to us, so we want to go ahead and

6 make that presentation. I'm going to turn it

7 over to our commission chair for the statement

8 that we have prepared for the consultation

9 meeting, Robert Nanomantube, the gaming

10 commission chair.

11 ROBERT NANOMANTUBE: Thank you. First

12 of all, I'd just like to thank the NIGC for

13 having this consultation and letting the tribes

14 voice their concerns, but first of all, before I

15 get started on the statements we have here, I

16 would like to preface those comments with a

17 citation for the Regulatory Act at 25 USC 2701

18 which states, "The Congress Finds That - (5)

19 Indian tribes have the exclusive right to

20 regulate gaming activity on Indian lands." I

21 think is just very vital of Indian tribes and

22 they should always maintain that exclusive

23 right. So hopefully the Sac and Fox experience

24 will assist this formulation of revised or

25 amendments to the NIGC's regulation, and will

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1 encourage an enhanced review of the regulations

2 from day to day regulatory perspective.

3 We also have comments with regards to Part

4 502.16, definition of net revenues. The Sac and

5 Fox is of the opinion that the definition of net

6 revenues be revised and be consistent with GAAP

7 and conform to calculations to GAAP. This would

8 provide more uniformity in determining how net

9 revenues are calculated. The Indian Gaming

10 Regulatory Act at Section 2703(9) defines net

11 revenues and any revision to net revenues must

12 maintain conformity to the above language in

13 IGRA.

14 Part 559, facility license notifications,

15 renewals, and submissions. One issue that we've

16 come across recently is that the tribes are

17 required to have a facility license due to the

18 environmental protection requirements, but we

19 also as tribes also have to adhere to EPA

20 regulations and Indian health and those types of

21 things like that in our facilities. So not only

22 do we have to conform to those standards, but

23 also now we're submitting this to the NIGC, the

24 facility licensing.

25 We had an issue recently with a wetlands

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1 which are in close proximity to the casino,

2 which are subject to the jurisdiction of the

3 tribe and to EPA requirements, and due to some

4 flooding we had there, the EPA said that we were

5 out of compliance with an EPA requirement

6 concerning inappropriate discharge into a

7 wetlands area. This finding, if proved to be

8 accurate, would also result in the tribe being

9 in non-compliance with the gaming facility

10 licensing requirements. We found that EPA was

11 in error in its findings, and we now have the

12 burden of proving that it is in compliance with

13 both the EPA regulations and the gaming facility

14 licensing requirements. So I think the

15 situation could occur more often than not with

16 other federal agency regulations.

17 As for the MICS and technical standards,

18 Part 542, Class III minimum internal control

19 standards, this particular area is a primary

20 concern to the Sac and Fox. We recognize that

21 internal control standards are extremely

22 important to the Indian gaming industry and more

23 particularly to our tribe, due to its intent to

24 provide the protection of tribal assets as well

25 as providing for the integrity of the tribe's

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1 gaming operations. In addition, Sac and Fox

2 recognizes and supports the need for consistency

3 in the auditing process of internal control

4 standards in Indian Gaming.

5 Experience has shown that many tribes that

6 offer Class III gaming have used the NIGC's

7 bulletins as guidelines and have used said

8 bulletins as primary guidelines for purposes of

9 regulating Indian gaming. Sac and Fox believes

10 that tribes that offer gaming are as technically

11 knowledgeable and professional as commercial

12 gaming operations, and are aware that if they

13 did not implement their own tribal internal

14 control standards that they would be opening up

15 their gaming operations to illegal activity.

16 Sac and Fox looks to industry standards in the

17 gaming area and if it does not have the

18 expertise or technical ability in key gaming

19 areas, it retains someone or some entity to

20 carry out what is needed to protect its gaming

21 operation for the benefit of its tribal members.

22 It is my tribe's belief that it performs the due

23 diligence required in relation to following

24 industry standards, whether or not a regulation

25 requires it. Should Part 542 Class III MICS be

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1 eliminated and replaced with guidelines, it is

2 Sac and Fox's opinion that the tribes will

3 continue to institute industry standard internal

4 controls in the area of Class III. As to those

5 tribes who have incorporated 542 Class III MICS

6 in their ordinance or it is a part of their

7 compact, there may be resulting challenges, but

8 we believe that most tribes have appropriate

9 internal controls in place and that the internal

10 control guidelines would be used to supplant

11 what is in previously adopted ordinances.

12 Sac and Fox believes that the Class III MICS

13 should be developed by a tribal advisory group

14 process because of the ongoing changes in the

15 gaming industry and the differences in tribal

16 gaming operations, and the importance of

17 considering tribal experiences in internal

18 control guidelines developed. More importantly

19 Sac and Fox would recommend that said internal

20 control standards be issued as guidelines and

21 that they would be provided to the tribes in a

22 bulletin format and be updated on a regular

23 basis. Technology is changing so quickly that

24 governmental notice and the rulemaking process

25 is too slow to keep up with said changes.

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1 Possibly internal control standards could be

2 referred to in recommended changes to gaming

3 ordinances. For instance, revised ordinances

4 may include a statement that identifies the

5 requirement, that internal control standards be

6 implemented by the tribal gaming regulatory

7 agency that meet or exceed industry standards.

8 Therefore, Sac and Fox recommends that the

9 Class III MICS issue should be considered one of

10 the top four areas to have NIGC regulatory

11 review, and that said review include the use of

12 a tribal advisory group, with the resulting

13 document issued as a bulletin. So I think that,

14 you know, maybe the Class III MICS could also

15 like the gentleman said previously be issued in

16 a bulletin form as a guideline for tribes. You

17 know, I'm sure that most tribes would adopt

18 those if they haven't already to formulate their

19 own standards, so I think that would be an easy

20 way to go on that.

21 As for Part 522, submission of gaming

22 ordinances for resolution, Sac and Fox believes

23 that this section does not need revision, but

24 that perhaps a bulletin could be issued that

25 addresses recommended changes in an ordinance if

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1 the tribe chooses to update their ordinance.

2 For instance, the issue of internal control

3 standards could be identified.

4 As for Part 514, fees, Sac and Fox is of the

5 opinion that the past practice by the NIGC to

6 issue a notice of violation if fees were paid

7 late was kind of an extreme measure to impose

8 upon tribes unless there's negligence by the

9 tribes that can be shown as a pattern. It would

10 seem more reasonable to develop some type of

11 schedule of fines or penalties either based upon

12 passage of time and/or number of times being

13 late to pay. This is a priority issue to be

14 reviewed, one of the top four for us, that could

15 be revised by the regular notice and rulemaking

16 process.

17 A situation in Kansas has become visible

18 within the past three to four years which is

19 causing concern to the Sac and Fox Nation. This

20 is being brought to your attention because it

21 could develop into more than exchange of memos

22 between the NIGC, the state of Kansas and the

23 tribe.

24 The NIGC regulations require tribes to

25 submit investigative reports with each licensing

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1 determination made by the tribes for primary

2 management officials and key employees, 25

3 C.F.R. Section 558.3(b). Sac and Fox is a part

4 of the NIGC's pilot program. Therefore, based

5 upon its MOU with the NIGC, it would ordinarily

6 only submit a synopsis and the results of the

7 background investigation for a primary

8 management official and key employee. The

9 Kansas compacts, however, place the

10 responsibility to conduct background

11 investigations for Class III employees on the

12 state and the Kansas State Oversight Act

13 prohibits tribes from disclosing most of the

14 information contained in an investigative

15 report, including to the NIGC. This is the

16 viewpoint of the Kansas officials.

17 As a result of the above, there is a

18 conflict in laws and the Sac and Fox are caught

19 in the middle of potential enforcement action by

20 possibly the state as well as the NIGC. The

21 NIGC general counsel has disagreed with the

22 state's belief that the information cannot be

23 shared. In an opinion letter dated June 18,

24 2008, from the former NIGC acting general

25 counsel, Penny Coleman, to the deputy attorney

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1 general, Mike Leitch, she stated "...that under

2 the supremacy clause, where such a conflict

3 exists, state law must give way to federal law."

4 This issue has not yet been resolved. The Sac

5 and Fox would like to thank the NIGC director of

6 enforcement, John Peterson, for attempting to

7 rectify the situation in an amicable manner, but

8 it appears that Kansas is unwilling to change

9 its opinion. There may be no resolution short

10 of litigation, but the fact remains, the Sac and

11 Fox Nation remains in the middle of a conflict

12 of laws that could result in enforcement action

13 against our Nation.

14 So in conclusion the Sac and Fox would like

15 to thank you for this opportunity to provide

16 input into the regulatory review process. Thank

17 you for listening, and if you have any

18 questions, feel free to contact us.

19 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you,

20 Chairman. Do we have any other tribal leaders

21 right now that would like to make a comment or

22 if you have any questions or need clarification?

23 Governor Anoatubby.

24 BILL ANOATUBBY: I have two or three

25 areas. I'd like to address others as they come

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1 up. One in particular has been a difficult

2 challenge for us. In Indian Country, it's

3 pretty difficult sometimes to build a facility

4 like this. You need folks that will be willing

5 to take some risk to go along with you. I

6 remember one facility, Winstar, south of here,

7 we first developed that. We had a deal with

8 other authorities as well of the tribal

9 legislature and they had rules. We don't want

10 to waive sovereignty and don't go into debt, and

11 when we built a facility like this, it was sort

12 of difficult to follow that rule, so you look at

13 the unique methods of financing, and I wouldn't

14 say a partner, but somebody who's willing to

15 understand the risk and the gain. So sometimes

16 you enter into financing and development of the

17 type agreements that are not the norm when it

18 comes to financing.

19 When you go to the bank, you sign a note,

20 you get a mortgage, you know. Sovereign

21 immunity. That doesn't work for us. I know

22 some tribes do that and that's their

23 prerogative. So we came up with a way that

24 works a little bit like if you rent a Xerox

25 machine. I don't know. Is Xerox still around?

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1 I don't know, but I guess they've got some --

2 that will tell you how old I am, but anyway we

3 rent the machine from someone, from a company.

4 They charge you by the number of copies that you

5 use if you don't own the equipment, and we chose

6 not to own gaming equipment because we felt like

7 we wanted to have the prerogative of having

8 equipment move in and out based on

9 profitability.

10 So after some months of finding someone who

11 would see eye to eye with us, we found a gaming

12 company to provide the equipment, provide the

13 magnets, oversee and make sure that it was

14 operating like it should, and then we decided we

15 wanted to gain. If it wasn't making what we

16 felt like it should be, move it out, and bring

17 in another one. Now, these days you just change

18 the face, but back then, we're talking several

19 years ago, now some seven or so years, it was

20 difficult to find someone that would be willing

21 to do -- put the equipment in and assist with

22 the financing of the facility.

23 We found a company that signed an agreement

24 with us without recourse. Now, that's another

25 thing that you can't find at a bank. No

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1 recourse. In other words, if the business

2 fails, they can't come and collect anything from

3 you. You're not assigning any tribal assets to

4 them. Anyway, this is sort of a unique

5 financing agreement. It's a developing

6 agreement. So in order for us to receive the

7 financing and build the facility, they needed to

8 receive in return funds that will help recover

9 what they had in the facility. So it's a

10 financing development agreement. So we chose to

11 use the Xerox approach, a percentage based on

12 the amount of revenue coming through.

13 It is not a management agreement. We manage

14 the facility. We hire all the people. We

15 handle the money. I mean, it's ours much like

16 Riverwind is ours, and there are those who are

17 saying based on the fact that there's a

18 percentage, that it was a management agreement.

19 It's not, it has not been, and it won't be.

20 I think we need to clarify this in such a

21 way as to make sure that financing agreements,

22 developing agreements, those kind of things that

23 help a tribe move forward with their gaming,

24 that they not be characterized as management

25 unless there's management involved. Management

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1 will hire the people, handle the money, you

2 know, make the decisions. You know, that's what

3 we do. So we've had some difficulty over the

4 years and we've resolved these difficulties, and

5 we're at a point I think that most people

6 understand our agreements, and we need to

7 protect those of other tribes who may do the

8 same thing. We need to make it clear that there

9 has to be -- not every percentage contract is a

10 management agreement. It's just not true. So I

11 think we need to make sure that the definition

12 of management agreement does not include every

13 percentage contract.

14 I'm going to shift gears now, and it goes to

15 self-regulation, and some tribes are ready for

16 self-regulation, and there should be an attempt

17 to promote self-regulation at every possible

18 juncture. I think that in the past, years past,

19 that perhaps there was an attitude that tribes

20 can't regulate themselves and maybe shouldn't

21 regulate themselves, but the statute provides

22 for it, and I think that attitude needs to

23 soften a little bit, if not go away. The tribes

24 that have the ability to regulate should be

25 allowed to do so.

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1 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you,

2 Governor. If we don't have anyone that's

3 immediately going to respond right now, we're

4 scheduled for a break, and we can take 15,

5 refresh your coffee, stretch your legs, get your

6 thoughts together, overcome your shyness of

7 public speaking, and come back and share some

8 more with us. We'll take 15, come back at

9 11:00.

10 (Break)

11 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Okay. Let's go

12 ahead and get started again. We do have -- Lael

13 has a microphone. Tom has a microphone right

14 here. We also have a microphone set up over

15 right next to Governor Anoatubby. Does anyone

16 have any prepared statements they wanted to

17 make, any questions or clarifications that we

18 might be able to answer or provide? Right here

19 and then over here.

20 BARBARA COLLIER: Okay. Hello,

21 everybody. Good morning. It's good to see all

22 your smiling faces. I've been honored and asked

23 to join Chairman John Berrey, the chairman of

24 the Quapaw Tribe Business Committee, on the

25 comments. I do appreciate several of the

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1 comments, all of them that you all have made

2 today, and especially going down the same path

3 with Jamie Hummingbird. He and I worked

4 together on several committees, and we kind of

5 feel the -- have the same opinions on some

6 cases, especially concerning the front lines of

7 operators, the front line regulators, claims

8 agents, the licensing agents that have to make

9 sure that these regulations are put in place

10 properly, and oftentimes I think that I would

11 like to recommend that the commission look at

12 the comments or possibly seek comments

13 specifically from gaming commissioners,

14 especially compliance and licensing agents that

15 have to do these daily tasks because it's

16 something that even I as director, I'm not on

17 the floor. I don't know how, you know, things

18 work with machines, and I don't have to deal

19 with that daily. I don't have to daily deal

20 with the requirements that the licensing

21 regulations puts forward and all the vendor and

22 management agreements and things like that that

23 we deal with. So I think that we need to either

24 internally as commissions or agencies direct our

25 comments and perhaps include -- have inclusive

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1 comments of our front line regulators as well as

2 making comments ourselves as tribal leaders or

3 business commissions or things like that,

4 commissioners, so we can get the front line an

5 absolute working relationship as they need to

6 be.

7 Also the financial burden that some of these

8 bring, especially working with the Oklahoma

9 Tribal Gaming Regulators Association, we found

10 that oftentimes with smaller tribes, they don't

11 have funding that they could utilize to hire

12 legal counsel or to help them with consultations

13 with contractors or things like that that can

14 bring them more knowledge about changing the

15 regulations or changes that are going to come

16 forward. Now, I'm realizing we do have those

17 training sessions and things, but oftentimes we

18 found in the state of Oklahoma anyway, that even

19 the smaller tribes even did not have the ability

20 to send someone to those trainings and to have

21 it available to them.

22 So I don't know, you know, if that would

23 even be a viable fix to have people go to them

24 to assist them with technical problems and

25 things like that, but I do think there's a need

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1 for that. So other than, you know, a lot of

2 comments made by others this morning, we do

3 think that those are some avenues that we can

4 take.

5 VICE-CHAIRWOMAN COCHRAN: Thank you for

6 bringing out training and technical assistance

7 and its relationship to the regulations because

8 in conversations among the commissioners, the

9 intent of our four priorities does overlap

10 specifically in that area in the sense that our

11 training and technical activities should mirror

12 deficiencies that we're finding in compliance

13 with the regulations or deficiencies in audits

14 so that we go back to the tribe rather than

15 using the sledge hammer of an NOV to go back and

16 say your tribe is consistently having

17 deficiencies in X. We'd like to offer some

18 assistance and see if we can't get that

19 eliminated. The two actually have a unique

20 overlap, and that's why these regulations and my

21 revisiting some of these regulations will be so

22 important. So thank you for bringing that out.

23 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Yes, sir. Right

24 over here.

25 TOM GAMBLE: Yeah. I've actually got

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1 two questions. I'm Tom Gamble with the Miami

2 Tribe, and one is that February 12th deadline,

3 is that a doable date for comments? And the

4 second question was that, you know, you guys are

5 in on every one of the consultations throughout

6 the country. Is there one main topic that ties

7 all of this together --

8 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: I'm sorry. Could

9 you repeat that again? I'm looking at our

10 transcriptionist and he didn't understand your

11 questions.

12 TOM GAMBLE: Okay. Stand up. Okay.

13 One is the February 12th deadline for comment.

14 Is that a doable date? And the other one is the

15 other question is throughout your consultations,

16 is there anything that ties each meeting, one

17 particular subject or number of subjects that

18 may come up all the time? Thank you.

19 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you for your

20 questions. The February 12th deadline, it

21 appears doable to us because we're just asking

22 about what your priorities are in terms of

23 regulations that need to be addressed. We're

24 not asking for a 36-page briefing paper from

25 your legal counsel. We have it on the website

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1 right now, and actually it's not a bad example.

2 It's actually a pretty good example that

3 addresses the NOI, the notice of inquiry. It's

4 San Manuel, and they go through reg by reg, and

5 they're brief about it, and they assign for them

6 a priority and how they'd like to see that

7 particular regulation addressed. Some are

8 technical advisory committee. Some just go

9 forward with promulgation of regs. So that's

10 what I mean. I think it's doable if it doesn't

11 become too over -- you know, we don't need for

12 it to be in depth and comprehensive, just what

13 your priorities are.

14 In terms of a common theme, MICS. Not even

15 Class II. I mean, we've had some tribes say

16 leave the Class II MICS alone as it is now.

17 We've had tribes say, no, please change them,

18 but moreover, we've heard more about MICS, Class

19 III MICS, than anything, and tribes are on

20 different sides of the table on this, and we do

21 have to keep in mind the Colorado River Indian

22 Tribe decision set, which we cannot promulgate

23 nor enforce, and so what I've been saying to

24 tribes in these meetings is that we are looking

25 to you to help us come up with some innovative

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1 mechanisms to address that specific issue.

2 I think next on that, I would say management

3 contracts and facility licensing, and facility

4 licensing, tribes don't seem to be divided about

5 that. Very similar to the remarks that we heard

6 from the commission chair over here from Sac and

7 Fox. Yes, sir. Right over here. Can you state

8 your name and where you're from?

9 STEVE YORK: I'm Steve York. I'm the

10 tribal gaming commissioner for the Fort Sill

11 Apache Tribe and also the executive director for

12 the Apache Tribal Gaming Commission. I've been

13 hearing a lot of these comments this morning,

14 and basically as a regulator, as a true

15 regulator, the primary regulator in gaming for

16 tribes, you know, our base document is the same

17 base document that you have, and that base

18 document is IGRA itself. The only trouble is

19 when I read your inquiries that you put up here

20 and stuff, even Ms. Echo-Hawk when she started

21 out her statement, she starts out regulations.

22 That's not what IGRA says. IGRA says you guys

23 will develop regulations in management

24 contracts, self-regulation regulations, but IGRA

25 actually says you guys will develop standards

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1 and then it says standards or regulations. It

2 doesn't say regulations or standards. The law

3 says standards or regulations.

4 So the way I look at it, when we develop the

5 MICS, whether it be for Class II or III, is that

6 a regulation or is that a standard? I can tell

7 you to me when Joe Smith first come out with the

8 2004 MICS, he created this little deal called

9 variances. You haven't asked for a variance.

10 Why would you ask for a variance? You already

11 have a minimum. So the only way we get anything

12 of a variance, you have to exceed that minimum.

13 So I don't know of any tribe out there that

14 submits variances to you.

15 Well, I knew when Joe Smith did. He just

16 approved them if anybody sent one in. So by the

17 time the first MICS hit paper, it was already

18 changed. So every tribe out there had to comply

19 with whatever variance he granted. So all I'm

20 saying to you guys, the chairman, vice-chair, is

21 read IGRA. Come to fully understand what the

22 language is. Us as tribes have to comply with

23 IGRA. You have to comply with IGRA. I don't

24 have any problem with it. I mean, it's in plain

25 language. It's a beautifully written document

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1 even though a lot of tribes don't agree with it,

2 but we bought into it and gaming started, but,

3 like I say, you guys need to read IGRA. IGRA is

4 very clear about the language in there. I mean,

5 I'll just point out a few little issues that the

6 NIGC hasn't followed. Go to the section where

7 it applies GPRA. Does it really apply to you?

8 It didn't apply to you until you reached 25

9 million. You're at that level now. You're at

10 26 million. That's what your funding is, so

11 GPRA applies to you. Previous to that, GPRA

12 applied to you underneath the Department of

13 Interior budget process. So you need to look at

14 GPRA.

15 The next phase underneath GPRA, GPRA is only

16 there for when it was enacted. In other words,

17 when the law was enacted. It doesn't say as

18 amended. So whatever that phase of GPRA was,

19 that's what applies to you. Next phase

20 underneath it, it also says in there that on a

21 two-year basis that the U.S. Commission will

22 address all the tribes asking for technical

23 assistance, two-year plan. Every two years you

24 guys will submit a plan to us on technical

25 assistance.

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1 I've been working in games for a long time.

2 I've never seen a plan. Never seen a plan

3 submitted out for technical assistance, but I do

4 congratulate you because you're sending the

5 survey out now asking, well, what kind of

6 technical assistance do you need, but the

7 technical assistance you're sending out to me is

8 not what I've got in my training plan. It's not

9 what I need. I'm going to ask for a lot of

10 different things on that training plan besides

11 what the NIGC currently offers because there are

12 other trainings out there that all of the tribes

13 need, but like I say, I just suggest to you that

14 each one of you need to sit down and read IGRA

15 and become totally ingested to it because I have

16 to do that daily as a regulator for our tribe.

17 I mean, I read IGRA. Next thing I have to

18 read is the tribal gaming ordinance. Is it out

19 today? I don't think so. You guys developed

20 the regs, and regs say I've got to follow this,

21 this and this to get Class II ordinance. If I

22 want to amend it, I've still got to follow this,

23 this and this to get there. So all I'm saying

24 is if we're really going to have a true

25 discussion about trying to change the regs, we

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1 need to have a true discussion about what IGRA

2 says because, like I say, Congress has already

3 defined what a proprietary interest is. Two

4 variables of the deal. They're saying it's

5 70/30 in management contracts or 60/40, and then

6 the individual operations prior to 1986 bingo

7 operations was a 60/40 deal, and I congratulate

8 the chairman who was here earlier. His tribe

9 had meetings out there that were doing a 50/50

10 split. That's a violation of IGRA. It sat

11 there for a long time until the tribes took it

12 up. The tribal court ruled. You can't have a

13 50/50 split. It violates IGRA, which I commend

14 the court for that. Sounds like the judge knows

15 how to read IGRA.

16 So like I say, if we're going to have a true

17 discussion about this, let's sit down and talk

18 about IGRA, the base document. Establish the

19 chair and the vice-chair and the third member.

20 There's a few little skips in it. I mean, one

21 of the skips that I thought was kind of out of

22 the ordinary was on self-regulation. Well, I

23 have to pay 25 percent of 1 percent. In your

24 regs at the end, it says I don't have to pay a

25 damn thing. That's a violation of IGRA in

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1 itself because the law is wrote that way. It

2 says you will collect 25 percent of 1 percent.

3 It doesn't say that you can forget it.

4 And then let's go ahead and talk about the

5 quarterly fees. Law states quarterly fees. Now

6 we're coming up, you can pay this fee every six

7 months. That's not what the law says. The law

8 says I pay quarterly fees. You collect

9 quarterly fees. I know it makes it easier on

10 your accounting person there and stuff, but I

11 don't understand that, but the other thing is,

12 well, the Buy Indian Act. The real question is

13 does that give me Indian preference for my

14 employment with the National Indian Gaming

15 Commission? That's kind of a dead issue, but

16 last year it was a hot item. Everybody wanted

17 to see the National Indian Gaming Commission,

18 and I commend them for you three Indian tribal

19 members that are representative. I guarantee

20 you it's still important to me. I think that's

21 important to a lot of young Indian people that

22 are looking for careers with the National Indian

23 Gaming Commission to have some kind of Indian

24 preference.

25 I mean, I can talk on and on about this, and

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1 I don't want to say a whole lot of words when I

2 get up and talk, but when I talk, I want you to

3 listen because I think a full understanding of

4 IGRA needs to be understood by everybody because

5 I have to live it every day. I mean, when I'm

6 working in a gaming operation, I have to go back

7 and look at IGRA to see what Congress really

8 intended me to do.

9 Like I say, it's a beautifully written

10 document. It's very clear. Like I say, when

11 you read it, if you read it like I do, it says

12 standards or regulations. It only said you guys

13 have to develop regulations for management

14 contracts, basically self-regulation, and follow

15 it all the way down in the regs, except at the

16 end, you say if you qualify for this, you don't

17 have to pay me a fee.

18 And I don't have any problems with the

19 Colorado River Indian Tribes case. I didn't

20 think at the time that you had authority over

21 Class III gaming, and I still think that. It

22 applies to Governor Anoatubby, Chairman Houser,

23 Steve Ortiz, all of the tribal leaders here all

24 understood the Colorado River Indian case

25 applies to them. Is Class III MICS a good deal?

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1 I think anybody needs minimum internal controls.

2 Is that the internal controls that the NIGC

3 dictates? I don't think so. As far as I know,

4 everybody you hire can read. So that means if

5 I'm in the state of Arizona or if I'm in the

6 state of California or if I'm in the state of

7 Washington or Connecticut or anywhere else, I

8 should be able to read whatever those minimum

9 internal control standards are.

10 That's all I'm saying is just we need to

11 have a good discussion about what IGRA says,

12 what IGRA intended, because Congress was very

13 clear about their findings, and I'll go back to

14 your net revenue. Congress already defined it.

15 Is there a way out of that? I can guarantee you

16 there is. All you've got to do is change it and

17 I'll sue you, and then we'll have a court decide

18 whether IGRA needs to be changed, and that

19 doesn't have -- I don't think anybody in here,

20 whether it be a tribal leader or regulator or

21 anybody, believes that we need to amend IGRA. I

22 think we need to have a true understanding, and

23 that includes people that represents you and us

24 as tribes that represent the tribes. I mean, we

25 need to have good dialogue. We need to review

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1 what IGRA says, and that's all I've got to say.

2 Thank you.

3 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you, sir.

4 Just to address some of the concerns that were

5 brought up, we are in the process of

6 implementing the Indian preference policy. It

7 will be implemented. The Buy Indian Act,

8 something as simple as holding a consultation in

9 a tribal facility should be standard. It should

10 be standard practice for us. We should be

11 trying to go out into Indian facilities for our

12 meetings. That was not something that was

13 practiced regularly in the previous commission.

14 Speaking of the previous commission, you

15 know, the last chairman served a three-year

16 term, and many of the things that you're seeing

17 up there are established regulations that were

18 put in place prior to our arrival. I've been in

19 office for seven months. Stephani has been here

20 for a little over a year. Dan has been here for

21 about nine months. This is a new commission.

22 We hope that your comments will incorporate

23 your interpretation and your understanding and

24 encouragement of using IGRA as a basis. We all

25 come from Indian Country. I worked in my tribal

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1 gaming operation. I worked with my tribal

2 leadership on government gaming policy for my

3 tribe. Stephani has worked for the Pojoaque.

4 She's also worked for the state of New Mexico.

5 Dan also has worked for the Mashantucket Pequot.

6 Lael has worked for the Tulalip tribes, and

7 something that Dan has coined is that we're all

8 products of Indian gaming. We have an

9 understanding of gaming because we came from

10 sitting in those seats, but I do want to

11 emphasize that we want to hear everyone's

12 comments. We've heard similar comments with

13 regard to the base underlying foundation of

14 IGRA, and using tribes, for example, as primary

15 regulators, and seeing tribes as primary

16 regulator according to the way the act is

17 written. We certainly welcome comments that

18 provide us your views as they pertain to your

19 comments. So I just wanted to address some of

20 those things that were mentioned. Do we have

21 others that would like to speak, tribal leaders?

22 Right over here.

23 JEFF HOUSER: Hi. I'm Jeff Houser with

24 the Fort Sill Apache Tribe. I want to thank

25 Governor Anoatubby for hosting us. I thank the

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1 commission for coming down. I've gone through

2 the NOI and have a few comments, and I want to

3 say that I agree with the Chairwoman that some

4 of the concerns that we have are with the

5 actions that were taken with the previous

6 chairperson. I'll get to those. They're not a

7 priority here. This is a priority list. I

8 think the first is the management contract. You

9 know, our casino has a number of Class II

10 machines, and while it is said that we control

11 the hold of these Class II machines, we don't.

12 Maybe other casinos do. We can ask the Class II

13 vendor to change the hold and they've been

14 getting around to it for a number of years. I

15 think that if, in fact, a Class II vendor has

16 control of hold as a management decision, then

17 it should be a management contract rather than

18 having a -- I think it should be explicit that

19 they have no control over the hold, that the

20 contract shows that the tribe has control over

21 the hold or we consider it a management

22 contract, because sometimes it might be stated

23 that tribes have control over the hold, but they

24 never get around to it, I think, at least in our

25 tribe.

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1 The second is the fees, late payment versus

2 NOV. Our tribe received an NOV because of a

3 clerical error and a miscommunication, and I

4 strongly believe that the late payment would

5 have been a lot better. There was no intention

6 on our behalf to be late. A contract payment

7 was not made on time. The second is a question

8 on whether the proceedings before the commission

9 should be formalized. Basically my approach to

10 most of these questions are that these need to

11 be formalized so that everybody can be sure that

12 there's fairness. I think gaming is a highly

13 political industry. It's influenced a number of

14 elected officials. It's involved in various

15 ways. It would just be good in my opinion if we

16 could have any proceedings be formal, more like

17 a court.

18 And, finally, the Class III MICS, you know,

19 I read San Manuel's response. I think that if

20 it was struck down by the courts, it should be

21 turned into a bulletin.

22 And then the facility license, I happened to

23 be in a similar consultation like this in

24 January of 2008, and the previous chairman of

25 the commission said something about finding a

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1 facility licensing law in his desk drawer, and

2 that facility licensing would be implemented

3 immediately. There was no consultation. I

4 think that that facility licensing regulation

5 was issued. The regulation should be withdrawn

6 until there can be a full consultation about

7 that.

8 And finally the question about whether or

9 not the chairwoman or chairman should withdraw

10 an NOV, in looking through the regulations, I

11 don't see a prohibition on that, so I'm curious

12 how that interpretation came about, and there

13 needs to be clarification simply that the

14 chairperson has the discretion to issue an NOV.

15 The chairperson should also have the discretion

16 to withdraw an NOV. Thank you.

17 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you very

18 much.

19 TOM GAMBLE: Tom Gamble with the Miami

20 Tribe again. In participating in TBAC, and now

21 we've actually changed the TBAC consultation, we

22 are active members in the budget process, would

23 an advisory committee to that nature be of a

24 benefit, because some of the issues that we've

25 heard today from a lot of people are tremendous

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1 issues, and would it be an issue that 12 regents

2 come together with the commission to discuss at

3 length in, say, quarterly meetings or something

4 like that? Would it be of help, and then also

5 how would that affect the budget? Would that be

6 something that you would have to add and how

7 would that particular type of a advisory council

8 be funded?

9 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: It's expensive. I

10 can tell you TBAC is very expensive because

11 we're paying for all the staff to go, all the

12 representatives and all the alternates and all

13 -- well, not all their staff. So it can be very

14 expensive, and it's time intensive. It's a lot

15 of time, and anyone who sits on TBAC here knows

16 it's time intensive. There's three or four

17 meetings a year, and then work that's done in

18 between, but, you know, we will defer to tribes

19 on how they might want to put together advisory

20 committees, and I think part of Lael's

21 presentation said, you know, are there areas

22 where we would use an advisory committee, and

23 depending on what the subject is, we might have

24 variations of it because we will need industry

25 experts unless somebody wants to get back into

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1 the math behind bingo. If anybody remembers

2 those meetings when we were going through a lot

3 of math, you know, we'll have to think about how

4 we can change as the situation requires.

5 Chairman Berrey.

6 JOHN BERREY: Yeah. Thank you very

7 much. John Berrey, chairman of the Quapaw

8 Tribe. I'm just wondering if you could give us

9 just sort of your thought on the overall process

10 at this consultation, what we'll be reviewing,

11 sort of what you've heard, and then there's sort

12 of -- I just want to know what your goals and

13 your time frames that you're thinking about so

14 we could start maybe with that.

15 LAEL ECHO-HAWK: Well, I can give a very

16 brief summary. As the chairwoman said, sort of

17 the primary topic of the consultations have been

18 for the past several years is Class II and Class

19 III MICS and the technical standards and what to

20 do with those. There's been sort of a swirl of

21 controversy around those issues for the past

22 several years, and one of the things that the

23 commission is really trying to do is to resolve

24 that and resolve it in a good way for Indian

25 Country, and so that has really been a topic of

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1 conversation. There are sort of two schools of

2 thought. Southern California was very

3 interesting because it was very clear, the

4 divide between tribes that want Class 3 MICS and

5 they think the agency has an obligation to carry

6 that forward particularly because the Class III

7 MICS have been adopted either in a compact or in

8 their ordinance, and a number of tribes, not

9 many, but a number of tribes had given the NIGC

10 enforcement authority over Class III MICS in

11 their facilities.

12 On the other side you have tribes who

13 absolutely believe that NIGC should repeal the

14 Class III MICS section in the regulations, and

15 perhaps issue bulletins or some sort of other

16 guidance that has those standards and therefore

17 those tribes that are underneath it, but the

18 fees that are paid by tribes that do not believe

19 that the NIGC has Class III regs, those should

20 be used to supplement the Class III audits or to

21 draft the Class III regulations or that small

22 number of tribes that have included either by

23 compact or ordinance.

24 So there is this divide, and I think as you

25 see comments coming forward and the transcripts

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1 on the website, you'll be able to see sort of

2 the conversations that those two factions are

3 having, and, you know, to be quite frank, the

4 commission is going to have to make a decision,

5 and so the more input we have on this, the

6 better off we're going to be.

7 Aside from Class III MICS, there of course

8 has been facility licensing over and over as

9 similar to what we've heard earlier today.

10 Facility licensing is the primary complaint in

11 that this regulation was done without proper

12 consultation. It contains a lot of duplicative

13 processes. That's one thing that the

14 administration is very adamant about, that we

15 eliminate those duplicative processes. That's

16 one thing that we're taking a look at, how we go

17 about doing that, facility licensing

18 regulations. Again, we need your input. That

19 is something that's been very important to the

20 tribes at the meetings that we've been to so

21 far.

22 What else? The communication process. It's

23 been very interesting. You've sort of heard,

24 again, two different things. Gaming commissions

25 want us to speak directly to the gaming

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1 commissions. Tribal leadership wants us to

2 speak directly to tribal leadership, and we want

3 to communicate the right way and make sure that

4 everybody gets the information that they need,

5 but clearly there's a communication breakdown

6 somewhere and we need to figure out how we can

7 resolve it the best way.

8 Class II gaming industry, again, you know,

9 sole proprietary interests, and primary

10 beneficiary has also been a topic that's been

11 addressed. Pretty much everyone does like this

12 penalty based or fee based kind of on a sliding

13 scale in lieu of notice of violation which

14 tribes pay their fees late. The pilot program,

15 self-regulation, all those have sort of been the

16 primary topics that we've heard over the past

17 week. Tribal advisory committee, that's also

18 been a discussion. What we heard last week or

19 last Friday in the northwest was that whatever

20 we do, we need to do it fast, and then the

21 commission, you know, federal agencies tend to

22 move slowly, and recognizing sort of limitations

23 that we work under, we are trying to move this

24 along as quickly as possible.

25 So I guess in answer to your question, after

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1 we receive the comments at the beginning of

2 February, we'll sit down -- I'll sit down with

3 the commission, we'll go through, we'll make

4 sort of a greater -- we'll look at what's come

5 in, listen to priorities, and we'll begin to set

6 the agenda.

7 That agenda will come out in April as it's

8 required to by statute, and it also works out

9 nicely with NICA annual meeting, and at that

10 point, we'll have the priorities set for the

11 regulation, and we'll begin to move forward

12 aggressively and as quickly as we can so that we

13 can get as much accomplished as possible, but I

14 would estimate that by the middle of the year we

15 will actually begin -- we will actually be in

16 the process of making some provisions to

17 regulations, amendments and those type of

18 things. We'll be doing the substantive work by,

19 I hope, May, June, July. We'll be moving as

20 quickly as we can. Did that answer your

21 question?

22 JOHN BERREY: I was just thinking if you

23 had some bulletins maybe (inaudible.)

24 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: He said, just to

25 reiterate for the transcriptionist, that

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1 bulletins might be good to use as we go through

2 this process to let people know what's going on.

3 JILL PETERS: I'm Jill Peters, the

4 executive director of the Comanche Nation Gaming

5 Commission, and I'd like to say thank you to

6 Governor Anoatubby for having us, and the

7 commissioners for coming and seeing us here in

8 Oklahoma. One of the challenges that I see is

9 that each of our tribes have different levels of

10 regulation as you know. Some of us have, you

11 know, adequate funding where others are

12 struggling to get the amount of funding that we

13 need from the tribal councils, and I think part

14 of that includes educating our tribal leaders

15 on, you know, the capacity that gaming, you

16 know, spans, and I want to thank all the tribal

17 leaders for being here today and taking an

18 active interest and role in the part that we

19 play every day to protect your gaming dollar for

20 the tribe.

21 I have some comments for the bulletin that

22 I'd like to just briefly go down. On part 502,

23 net revenue definition, just to echo what some

24 of the other comments were, that it should be in

25 accordance with the GAAP industry standards, and

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1 that also the allowable uses of gaming revenue,

2 the regulation for that may need to be looked at

3 as well.

4 The Class III MICS should be struck, and

5 this will allow the tribal gaming commissions to

6 have more authority over our Class III gaming,

7 and to put into place what works for each of us

8 as individual tribes. The Class II MICS, just

9 to echo, I think, you know, a tax should be

10 developed, and that you should look at having

11 equal representation from each of the regions as

12 well as, you know, each one of -- Oklahoma has

13 more Class II than, say, California, and

14 sometimes I feel like we get left out by not

15 having that equal representation, so take that

16 into consideration as well.

17 Facility licensing, you know, I do agree

18 that that does need to be looked at, but I just

19 want to say for our individual tribe that it

20 really did help us because we did not have the

21 inspections that we needed until this regulation

22 came out. It kind of forced us to get into

23 compliance where we go into the facilities and

24 get IHS out there to help us and to teach us to

25 inspect, you know, food handlers' permits, and,

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1 you know, reached out inspections. It really

2 did open us up to a part that, you know, we

3 really just didn't have time for. There's so

4 much that each gaming commission does every day,

5 and you have your priorities, and, you know,

6 facility licensing and EPA, HHS wasn't high on

7 the list, but that kind of just forced us to put

8 it on the forefront and get that under control.

9 So it really did benefit us as a tribe.

10 The NOV process, the chairperson should have

11 the final say on being able to withdraw an NOV

12 because, you know, in the communication process,

13 once you issue it, you may find out that, you

14 know, there are circumstances like Chairman

15 Houser was saying, it may have been a clerical

16 error. It wasn't, you know, ill intent on the

17 tribe's part, but at least take into

18 consideration those circumstances that led to

19 that violation occurring and being able to

20 retract that or, you know, reach a settlement

21 agreement that's not so formal, you know, just

22 relooking at that process altogether, and that

23 basically covers everything I have to say.

24 Thank you.

25 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you very

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1 much. Do we have any other comments before we

2 break for lunch? Matthew?

3 MATTHEW MORGAN: Matthew Morgan, gaming

4 commissioner of the Chickasaw Nation. I just

5 wanted to give you an update. I know we've

6 talked a little bit about the MICS process, our

7 tribal working group. We did meet last week in

8 San Diego, myself, Jamie Hummingbird, and

9 Stephanie Brian. We did have a session last

10 week in San Diego. So far we've been very

11 productive. We probably had 40 to 50 people

12 participate, but we've taken your charge very

13 seriously. We're working very diligently to try

14 to get you a product that Indian Country has

15 input into to give you a place to start from on

16 our Class II MICS, and then going farther than

17 that looking into our Class III MICS and

18 technical standards, making sure that those

19 documents flow together not only for regulatory

20 bodies, but for our operators, our

21 manufacturers, and our tribal leaders to make

22 sure that they understand everything, how it

23 works together. I didn't know if you had a

24 report yet back from San Diego, but we're

25 working diligently and getting through that

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1 process.

2 Also to speak to Ms. Peters on her comment

3 on the facility licensing, one of the things I

4 really hope that we look at in our facility

5 licenses is, you know, like a lot of the

6 subjects we talk about are our MICS. The cookie

7 cutter approach to facility licensing sometimes

8 hinders, and I give you this property as an

9 example. You know, we have the Show Place

10 Theatre, we have our gaming room, we have a

11 hotel, valet, food services that are third

12 parties. The minute you come in and start

13 describing the parameters of our authority as

14 boxes, that automatically limited my

15 jurisdiction which I had before then, which our

16 tribe saw fit to give me, which was to help

17 alleviate some of our environmental health

18 concerns and some of our problems in the parking

19 areas, in our sewage and water plants, and so if

20 you would keep that in mind as you go through

21 and look at these, and maybe a support for going

22 in and looking at bulletins on some of those

23 things. So if you could keep that in mind, I'd

24 really appreciate it. I think Mr. Green has a

25 couple of other things that he would like to

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1 say. Thank you.

2 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Do I need lunch

3 first, Jess? I'm warning you. Dan has duct

4 tape.

5 JESS GREEN: I do appreciate the fact

6 that this NIGC group has at least more willingly

7 listened than the previous ones that I have

8 engaged with. I have looked at what you have

9 proposed primarily here in Oklahoma, and for the

10 Chickasaw Nation in particular. My gaming

11 commission has three lawyers. My gaming

12 commission is capable of being determined to be

13 self-regulated, but your current rules don't

14 give us any advantage whatsoever.

15 I remember when IGRA passed. It was

16 supposed to work into a situation where tribes

17 did exactly that. There was even a special

18 benefit we got by paying less fees because the

19 NIGC didn't need to look at us. The current

20 regulations haven't been utilized. The only

21 tribe that's really had a benefit is the

22 Mississippi Choctaws, and they got Congress to

23 recognize them as being self-regulated.

24 Your current proposal asked about including

25 percentage contracts in all of the management

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1 contract reviews. It's beyond your capability.

2 Our realty contracts are percentage contracts.

3 A good deal of our advertising contracts are

4 percentage contracts. Even our cash services

5 contracts are percentage contracts. For the

6 Chickasaw Nation alone, you would be overwhelmed

7 literally. Even Chairman Solpopi's group

8 testified before Congress when they were talking

9 about giving a substantial increase in authority

10 over management contracts by an IGRA amendment,

11 they testified they would be overwhelmed.

12 Please understand your staff has grown five

13 or six times than what it was five years ago,

14 but the number of percentage contracts would

15 simply be overwhelming. Moreover, you charge a

16 real high fee to examine each of the people that

17 are involved. If I had to have all the cash

18 services officers pay $10,000 a piece, who do

19 you think they're going to make pay for that?

20 They're not going to reach in their pocket and

21 pay for it. They're going to bill that cost

22 either directly or indirectly in the contract to

23 us, and so for a contract that there's only 50,

24 $75,000 being spent, you're going to have us pay

25 75, $80,000. This doesn't make sense. It

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1 doesn't make sense economically for the

2 definition of management contract to simply

3 include all of the percentage contracts.

4 Your facility license regulations as Matthew

5 pointed out really hinder us now. I'm not

6 saying -- currently they based their

7 infrastructure to limit the license that a

8 gaming commissioner issues to the building.

9 Now, I understand if you're in a PL 280 state

10 like California where you don't have criminal

11 jurisdiction, that's not a big issue, but here

12 in Oklahoma we maintain criminal jurisdiction,

13 and the gaming commissioner likes to reach all

14 the way out to the edge of the parking lot

15 perimeter for some of the tribes. Our gaming

16 commission has always licensed the entire

17 footprint that was in trust as far as they can

18 reach as a part of the gaming facility so we can

19 control health and safety because in our rural

20 areas that's where we put the sewage ponds. If

21 you want us to have health and safety

22 regulations that matter, his authority needs to

23 reach beyond the edge of the building. You have

24 limited the gaming commissioner's authority or

25 your own authority because your authority

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1 follows his. Do you grasp what I'm saying with

2 that logic?

3 And this current reg says if I build a

4 facility right next to the next one, in other

5 words, if I've got a service station with 20

6 games in it, and I decide I need another 50 and

7 I pull a trailer in or build a building, if I

8 don't connect it with an awning, you won't

9 assign a new gaming license. Now, if I've been

10 licensing this whole square anyway, why do I

11 need a new license? Why can't one license cover

12 both so I can operate as both?

13 Again, I'm not saying that the people at the

14 NIGC are just ultimately wrong. I'm saying

15 their application didn't consider everything

16 under the sun, and we really need to go back and

17 look at some of these practical applications,

18 and this Regulation 559 would be real easy to

19 clear up.

20 Part 523, the gaming code amendments, 2710

21 of IGRA says that the chairman has a right to

22 approve or disapprove the gaming code. We now

23 have a regulation that says you won't consider

24 an amendment unless it has these provisions in

25 it. You're not invading the authority of the

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1 gaming commissioner. You're not even invading

2 the authority of the tribal chief or chief

3 executive. You're invading the authority of the

4 entire tribal government to meet that checklist,

5 and if they can meet it without putting the two

6 things that are in your reg in here, to do so.

7 Indeed we have done that. That's why all these

8 gaming ordinances have already been passed.

9 IGRA doesn't give the NIGC the authority to add

10 requirements, and the fact that it says it only

11 applies to those amendments that are presented

12 perspectively tells me the people who wrote that

13 knew that. That needs to be addressed.

14 There's been a lot of discussion about the

15 Class II MICS. If you recall, the compacts are

16 not approved by the NIGC, but by Interior. In

17 November 2004, Oklahoma gave us a make it or

18 take it compact by a vote of people, and it was

19 approved and signed off by virtually every

20 Oklahoma tribe you have in this room, and what

21 it says is that we will follow the NIGC MICS.

22 It didn't say the NIGC MICS as is amended as

23 other legal references in that document preside.

24 It says the MICS. Your change in the MICS needs

25 to consider that for Oklahoma, technically we're

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1 locked in to 2004 because that's what the

2 compact entered, and it was approved by the

3 Interior, not by you.

4 So, I mean, a lot of these things are

5 exceptionally complex. My suggestion is that

6 you adopt standards because, again, I don't

7 think it hurts anybody to have good suggestions,

8 and that in the standards you point out, it's

9 not meant to affect in any way any of the

10 existing compacts. I just want to make sure you

11 consider that we have a compact that tends to

12 lock us into a specific time. The Class II MICS

13 that were adopted two years ago have been in

14 operations, and my bosses over here and this

15 one, have noticed there are things that aren't

16 working. Those of us that are technical people

17 tend to write rules that when they're applied

18 don't work very well, and I appreciate that

19 Matthew is working on the game regulations, the

20 game standards, but I want to emphasize that

21 it's time for you to listen as you have pointed

22 out and make changes to those 2008 MICS because

23 they've been in existence just long enough for

24 us to identify places that have warps, and we're

25 not talking about a complete replacement. We're

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1 talking about an improvement, and I appreciate

2 that you've given us the opportunity to do that.

3 One other thing about the MICS and gaming

4 standards, there was no exemption for games that

5 were litigated. Games have already gone to the

6 Tenth Circuit or the D.C. Circuit, and they've

7 been determined to be Class II. I don't think

8 you have authority to tell that circuit court

9 that they have to do something else to be Class

10 II. I think when you do that, that creates a

11 conflict between you and a federal court, and

12 it's not just a district court. It's a circuit

13 court, and it's been my experience they have

14 about as much patience as Governor Anoatubby and

15 speaking of patience, I think I've probably

16 exceeded everyone's patience. Thank you for

17 listening.

18 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you, Jess.

19 That was pretty painless. He was a gentleman,

20 Governor Anoatubby. Thank you. Because I

21 yelled at him the last time I saw him, but those

22 are all good words, and I appreciate your

23 comments and look forward to -- I assume there

24 will be some written comments submitted. If

25 not, we'll have these on record. If you want to

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1 expand, you're certainly welcome. We are at the

2 lunch break right now, and what we'll do is

3 we'll come back at 1:30 back in this room and

4 we'll keep the mics open. Thank you and enjoy

5 your lunch.

6 (Lunch break)

7 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Okay. Good

8 afternoon. I hope everybody had a nice break.

9 We'll be getting started, but I want to make

10 sure everybody is back in the room and seated.

11 So we'll open the floor back up to comment. We

12 have microphones in various parts of the room.

13 We know many of the tribal leaders have spoken

14 already. I think at this point if there are

15 others that represent their tribes or their

16 organizations and have comments, we certainly

17 welcome them. Yes, sir.

18 STEVE YORK: Steve York, Fort Sill

19 Apache Gaming Commissioner and executive

20 director of the Apache Gaming Commission. Like

21 I say, I talked pretty essentially about IGRA

22 this morning, and looking at the proprietary

23 interest. Like I say, Congress -- basically

24 proprietary interest basically set forth two

25 parameters, and that's set forth in the 70/30

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1 percent on management contracts and the 60/40 on

2 management contracts, and then they went down

3 and looked at both gaming operations that were

4 in place prior to 1986 and were Class II gaming

5 operations run by individual tribal members. In

6 that it basically said a 60/40 on that, but I

7 think like I say when you guys were taking a

8 proprietary interest, Congress has already

9 established what proprietary interest is. So if

10 you're looking at trust standards, you as the

11 trustee, since you're the trustee, you have to

12 look at that particular percentage, nothing

13 else.

14 In other words, if a management contract

15 comes in to you, you and the tribe or the

16 management contractor of the tribe approaches

17 the chairman of the National Indian Gaming

18 Commission for approval. Your only standard you

19 have to go by is 70/30. Now, does that mean in

20 the modern day climate, the economic climate,

21 can you go less than that? Yeah, you can. Can

22 you go more than that? Yeah, you can, because

23 it says 60/40 as long as the investment is

24 there. So I still look at that even on

25 proprietary interest. If I'm doing 80/20 type

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1 things or the tribe is doing 80/20 with vendors

2 contracting for them to come in and place their

3 machines in place and I'm going to do an 80/20

4 split, I'm looking at that as a proprietary

5 interest. It falls underneath the 30 percent,

6 so is it okay? Yeah, it is, but you guys

7 realize what you should be realizing that after

8 a year of operation, then I'm going to be

9 looking at their audit to see that them figures

10 are true and correct, in other words, they

11 haven't put any little outside loans or some

12 other stuff in there to increase that

13 percentage. You understand what I'm saying to

14 you? So, like I say, I think Congress has

15 already established a proprietary interest.

16 I've said that. I don't know why we need to

17 address it because you already have that

18 authority basically in there.

19 And there's some other issues that we've

20 talked about this morning or that have come up

21 that I've heard that are basically talking

22 about, you know, several different issues that I

23 basically addressed. Like I say, you guys are

24 in charge. IGRA created you, you know. I'll

25 give you a for instance. IGRA says that the

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1 president of the United States appoints the

2 chairperson or the chairman it says. It doesn't

3 say chairperson or chairwoman. It says

4 chairman, and then it says the secretary will

5 appoint the other two members. Then in order

6 for you to be selected to vice-chair, it then

7 says you have to have a meeting of at least two

8 of you members to elect the vice-chair. Did

9 that occur this time around? Okay. So you

10 basically did have a meeting? Well, like I say,

11 in the communication end of it, no one knows

12 when you have a meeting because Congress said

13 you guys are mandated to meet once every four

14 months. It doesn't say you're a full-time

15 commission. It just says you're supposed to

16 meet every four months, mandatory according to

17 the law is what it says.

18 So all I'm trying to do is get other people

19 in here to realize that all of us need to read

20 our base document, read the law, follow the law.

21 Like I say, I'm real concerned because of the

22 standards that we need to develop. Develop the

23 standards, not regulations, but standards. I

24 talked with you about the fact that here we

25 create these MICS deals. Well, by the time we

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1 put them in the federal register they're out of

2 date. They're no longer usable, you know. I

3 mean, all of us you go through it every day

4 running the day-to-day operations, the gaming

5 operations. We're having to look at possibly

6 revising PNP's in order to make sure we can meet

7 some kind of minimum control or meet an internal

8 control, and I'm not saying we need minimum

9 internal controls. I'm just saying that in the

10 guidance lines from you guys, we should be

11 looking basically at a minimum concept of what

12 minimally what we can get by with, not call it a

13 minimum, but just call it an internal control.

14 These are the internal controls we really need,

15 you know. These are facts that you really need

16 in order to run because I don't care where the

17 gaming operation is, whether it be Washington

18 state, California, New Mexico, Arizona,

19 Connecticut, whatever, all of us totally realize

20 that we need internal controls. We have to have

21 some kind of internal controls to run our

22 operations. Whether it be a Class II operation

23 or a Class III operation, we have to have

24 internal controls. I think there ain't no doubt

25 about that, but do we need minimum internal

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1 controls? I have no idea. That's up to you

2 guys and the tribes to decide what we really

3 need, but if you really read IGRA, it doesn't

4 mention anything about minimum internal controls

5 either in Class II or III. Now, one real

6 important fact that I want to point out to you

7 is the fact that you guys right now, you just

8 passed your fee schedule, is that correct? You

9 just put your fee schedule out just not long

10 ago?

11 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Not yet. Not yet.

12 STEVE YORK: Not yet? Okay. Well, if

13 you look at the fee schedule, Congress, when

14 they passed IGRA, said that your fee schedule

15 will not exceed .080, and if you're at .060 at

16 this time, that means you've only got 20 percent

17 to go, I mean, 20 points to go up. So when you

18 reach that level of .080, that's the maximum

19 fees that your organization can get underneath

20 IGRA. Do you agree with that?

21 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: I know that that's

22 what the law says.

23 STEVE YORK: Do what?

24 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: I know that that's

25 what the law says, yes. I understand that it's

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1 in the statute.

2 STEVE YORK: Okay. Well, like I say,

3 you're fast approaching it, so some planning is

4 going to have to take place. I mean, you're

5 going to have to look at that one real close.

6 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: The fee

7 changes from time to time. In the past we look

8 back to, you know, seven, eight years ago the

9 fee was, I think, .80, and it has gone down

10 because of its impact upon the revenue of the

11 industry. So that will fluctuate.

12 STEVE YORK: Okay. Well, like I say,

13 that's the maximum that you can go to underneath

14 what IGRA says. So, you know, I mean, you need

15 to look at all the factors, but, like I say, the

16 true understanding, if I'm looking at all of the

17 questions that you have, if you really look and

18 examine what IGRA says, you know, even the Buy

19 Indian Act, there's no federal agency out there

20 that really has the Buy Indian Act. I mean,

21 even the Bureau of Indian Affairs really doesn't

22 have the Buy Indian Act. They basically

23 coattail underneath that, underneath the AA

24 contract that, I can do this business with small

25 disadvantaged people. That means tribes. If

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1 they're an AA contractor that want to buy any

2 goods and services from them, you're more than

3 welcome to do it. You know, that's the only

4 thing about it is we're talking about the tribal

5 advisory groups. There's nothing that prohibits

6 you as a commission, I mean, besides consulting

7 with us, talking to us about it, but you can

8 adopt the Tribal Advisory Committee, the BIA,

9 Indian Health Service or anybody else because

10 the law allows you to talk to other federal

11 agencies, other federal things to allow you to

12 bring those in. I mean, there ain't a problem

13 with that. I mean, it's in the law. It

14 basically says you can do that.

15 And then, like I say, you guys are always

16 mixing apples and oranges up, too, because

17 somebody in California does something different

18 than we do here in Oklahoma. Like we told you

19 with Jess Green, our compact basically applies

20 to the 2004 MICS. Do we use the 2006 MICS?

21 Yeah. I'd say most of us do, you know, but with

22 the state of Oklahoma, if they come in and want

23 to fight with us over the 2004 MICS, say this is

24 what our compact says, you know. It's like the

25 state of California. If the state of California

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1 applies the MICS, then the tribes out there can

2 use them, and you guys can use them, but that

3 doesn't extend you beyond what you've already

4 failed to do. You didn't go back and appeal the

5 Colorado Indian River Tribe case. So I can tell

6 you I don't think there's any esquires in the

7 house who will disagree with me. When you

8 didn't appeal -- or the National Indian Gaming

9 Commission didn't appeal the Colorado Indian

10 River Tribe case, that case applies to me here

11 in Oklahoma just as well as it does in Colorado

12 or Washington state or Connecticut or anywhere

13 else because I can tell you that Washington

14 versus Georgia applies to me here in Oklahoma

15 just as well as it does to you in Washington

16 state, you know. I mean, I'm just telling you

17 what the sequence of the law says.

18 So, like I say, we all need to really have a

19 real good conversation and just talk about IGRA.

20 What does IGRA allow me to do, you know. The

21 commission is totally set up by IGRA, you know.

22 Just like it says, the chairman shall appoint

23 their legal counsel. That didn't take place

24 this time. You appointed a legal counsel down

25 here, but that's not the general counsel.

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1 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Yes, I appointed

2 general counsel right when I got into office.

3 Penny Coleman left and I appointed Larry Roberts

4 as the new general counsel and I did that back

5 in July.

6 STEVE YORK: You physically -- you as

7 chairman appointed him.

8 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Yes. Chairman

9 appointed. Same thing with chief of staff.

10 STEVE YORK: Okay. Did you have any

11 help?

12 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: What do you mean?

13 STEVE YORK: I mean, that's just a point

14 blank question. Did you have any help? In

15 other words, were there politicians helping you?

16 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Well, the chairman

17 has some exemptions from Title 5. The

18 appointments clause, which allows me to appoint

19 -- the chairperson can appoint the general

20 counsel, and that's what I did.

21 STEVE YORK: Okay.

22 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: So I'm not sure

23 what you're asking, what kind of help?

24 STEVE YORK: I was just making a

25 statement. I wasn't asking anything.

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1 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: I hope I was

2 responsive. I did it on my own.

3 STEVE YORK: You answered the question.

4 RICHARD GRELLNER: One thing to clarify.

5 My name is Richard Grellner with the Fort Sill

6 Apache. I assume the issue is between a

7 management agreement determination and the fact

8 that the tribe has had a proprietary interest or

9 a sole proprietary interest under the

10 ordinances. What I heard him say was that the

11 management agreement provision is what really

12 determines what's a sole proprietary interest

13 because it allows in certain situations 30

14 percent of that revenue or however that's

15 defined under the act to go to an outside

16 manager or if there's over 100 -- I think it's a

17 100 million dollar investment. That number goes

18 to 60/40. I guess the question would be is for

19 the commission is how do gross revenue contracts

20 for vendors fit into that and whether or not if

21 they're above 30 percent, there's not a 100

22 million dollar investment, or if there is a 100

23 million dollar investment above 40 percent,

24 whether or not that violates IGRA. I think what

25 I took out of that, maybe in the interest of you

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1 all, is that in the current requirement we have

2 out here, we have a lot of 80/20 splits with

3 vendors. Obviously vendors put in a lot of

4 investment into the product, and they spend a

5 lot of money to get themselves into position.

6 The question will be whether or not an 80/20

7 gross deal, if you convert it to net, would be

8 above 70/30 or in a situation where the

9 investment is high enough would be above 60/40.

10 I think those guidelines maybe where we do have

11 some authority is to start looking at that and

12 seeing what is and what isn't, you know.

13 It's one thing for somebody to put a machine

14 on the floor and say I want 20 percent of the

15 revenue, but not have the time base. Another

16 thing, one of my clients has an 83-month

17 contract, 80/20 gross, which in my mind converts

18 to 60/40 net. It's another thing for that to be

19 tied up and have no real consideration for the

20 83-month revenue stream. You can say, well, the

21 tribes can do this or do that, but at some

22 point, you know, the tail is wagging the dog. I

23 think I agree that the only authority for you

24 guys to look at that is within the context of

25 the management agreement and whether or not

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1 those percentage guidelines are somewhere in

2 there. The next thing is whether or not it's

3 time based, and that's the issue.

4 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you. Do we

5 have more comments? There we go. Dan was just

6 wondering where is Liz?

7 ELIZABETH HOMER: I couldn't resist.

8 There was a microphone on the floor. Members of

9 the commission, let me just say that this is

10 such a refreshing change in the openness and

11 transparency and opportunity to have a true

12 dialogue. So I wanted to say we've already seen

13 a huge improvement in the kind of relationship

14 that I foresee for the NIGC and Indian tribes.

15 So I want to thank you for that. I want to

16 thank you for being here. I also want to thank

17 you for your horrendous travel schedule that

18 you've undertaken, you know, for these two

19 months. It's really quite remarkable, and

20 you're to be commended to really reaching out

21 into Indian Country on these issues.

22 I speak today not to bind anyone that I

23 might represent, but just say that there are a

24 couple of other issues. One is the enforcement

25 policy at the NIGC. You know, for a long time

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1 the NIGC had a voluntary compliance policy, and

2 that changed during last administration, and the

3 enforcement policy became, you know, really

4 based on criminal enforcement law as opposed to

5 a civil regulatory model, and I think that in

6 your regulatory review, it would be -- you know,

7 I would appreciate that getting some attention

8 as well as starting to develop internally in the

9 NIGC, you know, internal institutional

10 structures such as enforcement policy manual and

11 policy manuals for some of these day-to-day

12 functions that staff is performing so we can all

13 rely on that so we know what the processes are

14 going to be both externally and internally. So,

15 you know, I throw that out there.

16 I also want to reiterate a point that I

17 think I've made to you all, you know,

18 previously, which is that, you know, we have a

19 real opportunity now to look beyond the corner

20 that we all locked each other into for the last

21 few years in our relationship with the NIGC to

22 go beyond that and take a look at doing some

23 things using the statutory language in a way

24 that's going to ensure that the tribes have the

25 fullest benefit of the law, you know,

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1 self-regulation being one of those, you know.

2 There are a lot of these problems that I

3 believe we can resolve together with the NIGC

4 through the self-regulation process, and I think

5 that that regulation was put in place some time

6 ago, and it hasn't worked. It's probably never

7 going to work. It's a disincentive as opposed

8 to a carrot in terms of compliance, and I think

9 it could solve a lot of our -- a lot of our

10 differences and get some processes in place to

11 follow. So those are a couple of other items

12 that we didn't talk about too much today, but I

13 would really welcome the NIGC's review of those

14 things, and one thing that I did mention

15 previously when I was in San Diego which is the

16 NIGC's view of the National Environmental Policy

17 Act and its applicability to the NIGC's actions

18 with regard to tribal governments. I think

19 that, you know, there's some serious legal

20 issues there, and I think that at least with

21 respect to some of my clients, those are the

22 things that we would really like to work with

23 you on. So thank you very much again, and I

24 hope you enjoy Oklahoma. Thank you.

25 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: The general counsel

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1 that I did appoint actually came from EPA, and

2 has a very strong background in NEPA, so that's

3 been very helpful to us as we examine as we did

4 and consulted on the tribes over the summer on

5 the NEPA manual that was published in December

6 2009 prior to any of us arriving. So we have --

7 he's actually taking a look at that, and I do

8 want to say that we have heard in the other

9 consultation sessions about self-regulation

10 being a carrot. It should be an incentive

11 rather than a disincentive because we only have

12 just a handful of tribes that are certified for

13 self-regulation, and we welcome some comments on

14 how we could address this.

15 VICE-CHAIRWOMAN COCHRAN: Liz, will you

16 be submitting written comments on behalf of your

17 Oklahoma or Kansas clients?

18 ELIZABETH HOMER: Yes, ma'am.

19 VICE-CHAIRWOMAN COCHRAN: Thank you.

20 KAY BUSBY: My name is Kay Busby. I'm

21 the executive director of the Delaware Nation

22 Gaming Commission, and I, too, would like to say

23 thank you for this open forum. I have been

24 involved with Jess Green and Nancy many times

25 meeting with the previous chairperson, which was

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1 not a very pleasant experience I might add. As

2 you see, I still -- I did survive and I still am

3 employed. Thank you. My comment to you is when

4 you're looking at these regulations, would you

5 consider the smaller organizations such as my

6 own, the Delawares, who have a limited funding

7 source when you're passing these regulations,

8 and take into account that we are on a fixed

9 budget, and it's like if we go and ask the

10 tribal leaders, well, we need more money because

11 we have to comply with this regulation, we have

12 no way sometimes like the facility licensing,

13 for example, of knowing that was coming out. It

14 came out. You will do it. That's the end of

15 it.

16 My other comment is I, too, second what

17 other individuals have said about the fee

18 process, the NOV process. We, too, were fined

19 and issued an NOV and issued a fine for a

20 clerical accounting error that we made in our

21 accounting process, but lessons learned from

22 that, of course, and now we have a mark against

23 us and we take that -- we take our regulating

24 very seriously, and we're very proud of what

25 we've achieved to be where we're at, but that,

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1 too, looks like a D on us for -- you know, if we

2 could maybe come up with a forgiveness plan,

3 putting that in simple terms, that would be

4 wonderful. When I first started working for the

5 Delawares, I, too, looked into self-regulating,

6 and when I read the regulation for that, there

7 was just no way possible. No way that I could

8 go to my tribal leaders and say I need another

9 complete budget for this amount of money that

10 maybe would be sufficient to fund this

11 self-regulating body, which just never had a

12 second look. It's very overbearing in my

13 opinion.

14 Also I am from Tahlequah originally. I'm

15 Cherokee, and I'm very proud to be an Okie.

16 With that being said, we are unique here, and I

17 know that you hear that word, "we're unique

18 here." Other organizations say, "Well, are you

19 real Indians down there?" Yes. With that being

20 said, our Class II games are unique. Our bread

21 and butter is our Class II games, and our

22 customers like our Class II games. So if we

23 change it to the fact that it is not what our

24 customers like, we're going to have a

25 significant loss of revenue, and if you're a

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1 small organization like the Delaware is, we only

2 have one facility. We're fierce at protecting

3 our facility. We do whatever we can to protect

4 to ensure that the money that we receive goes to

5 the tribes, and it has just made our tribe a

6 better organization, helps our elders, helps our

7 children go to school. So there, too, please

8 relook at those Class II, and I, too, agree with

9 the Class III MICS. Because another state has a

10 problem with their state in trying to reach an

11 agreement with their Class III games doesn't

12 mean that it should be everybody. I think it

13 should be a case by case basis. Maybe you could

14 -- like the more experienced regulators said,

15 you could put it in as a suggestion, a bulletin,

16 a standard, and that we as self-regulators can

17 involve that if we need to. We are locked into

18 our compacts. We have a very good relationship

19 with the people, with the state in my opinion,

20 and grandma always said don't mess with it if

21 it's not broken.

22 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you.

23 VICE-CHAIRWOMAN COCHRAN: Thank you for

24 those comments. I just want to say something

25 because every time I keep hearing this story, it

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1 just hits me in the gut like the first time I

2 heard it. For whatever justification the NOV's

3 were sent out for late payments for fees, the

4 first time I heard that happened, I didn't know.

5 I had been on the commission for just a short

6 time, and I happened to be in California, in the

7 foot hills of California with a very small

8 tribe, and I was sitting with the leadership and

9 talking with them, and they were very proud of

10 the fact that they had negotiated a settlement

11 with my agency to reduce their fee from $40,000

12 to $20,000 on the NOV. This facility employs a

13 total of 40 people. Their fee payment was

14 $1,400, and I hear the story, and ever since

15 then I'm hearing the story, and, Liz, thank you

16 for your comments because it shouldn't be in my

17 opinion that we use the heaviest handle we have

18 on enforcement to collect fees. There's other

19 civil regulatory ways for us to accomplish that,

20 and that's my opinion on that particular issue,

21 but I just thank you for continuing -- even

22 though it hits me in the gut, thank you for

23 continuing to let us know how many of you here

24 in my home state are affected, because although

25 my tribe does very well, I know that the

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1 Delawares, you do fiercely protect your facility

2 as you should, and we should be mindful of how

3 they impact even the tiniest facilities because

4 they're very important to the tribes.

5 VICE-CHAIRWOMAN COCHRAN: I do want to

6 make a comment - thank you, Stephani - about one

7 size doesn't fit all, and that's what I heard

8 you saying, and we've heard that here before.

9 It's different from state to state. It's even

10 different within the states, you know. The

11 state that I'm from. There's very small

12 operations that are in very remote locations,

13 and very large operations that are closer who

14 might be able to handle, you know, more

15 requirements of them or, you know, not have it

16 affect them, but that's one of the reasons why

17 we're having this open forum. A lot of tribes

18 are saying, hey, I didn't know that that was

19 going to be the effect over there, you know,

20 when I propose something for my tribe, it has a

21 ripple effect on that tribe over there and vice

22 versa. To be able to hear or be able to say

23 wait a minute, if you do that, this is what's

24 going to happen to us over here, and to want to

25 hear it and be able to share it, but also to

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1 help us come up with some solutions so we don't

2 leave anybody behind. This is going to be the

3 responsibility of all of us by giving us your

4 priorities where the rubber meets the road as we

5 start doing draftings and changes, whatever

6 those changes might be. They might be

7 standards, they might be regulations, they might

8 be bulletins, they might be guidelines. Could

9 be a number of things, but whatever track we're

10 on, you know, I'm going to turn -- I'm going to

11 keep asking all of you how do we come to some

12 happy medium here so nobody is left behind, and

13 then we continue to protect this industry, and

14 we stay within the confines of our statutory

15 authority. Any more comments? Yes, sir. Right

16 over here.

17 JEFF HOUSER: Jeff Houser, Fort Sill

18 Apache Tribe again. I want to make a

19 clarification on the facility licensing. The

20 Comanche regulator made me realize that it's not

21 necessarily the ultimate holding of facility

22 licenses, but the 120-day requirement that was

23 announced, and when those were announced at the

24 consultation in 2008, it coincidentally happened

25 to effect some plans that we had drafted. So I

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1 think that while facility licensing in general

2 is good, I'm not quite sure about the 120-day

3 requirement given that there wasn't a

4 consultation. I still think -- there's a reason

5 to think it might not be effective.

6 The other part is -- one thing I left off

7 was the consultation advisory committees have

8 been in office nearly eight years, and I've only

9 been aware of advisory committees for gaming

10 after they had been set up, so it would be good

11 to have a method that all tribes can consider

12 fair and inclusive to allow everybody to have a

13 voice. So thank you.

14 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you, sir. We

15 have heard that from the other consultations

16 about who gets to choose and what the

17 requirements are and who gets to weigh in.

18 Actually, Lael, if there was anything that you

19 wanted to bring up that might not have been

20 brought up before?

21 STEVE YORK: One more thing.

22 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Certainly.

23 STEVE YORK: You guys are looking at

24 vendors. Can you as the NIGC help me conduct a

25 background on a vendor? I'm going to be real

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1 simple about it. If my gaming ordinance

2 requires me to license a vendor, then the only

3 mechanism we have -- of course, I understood

4 back in the old days the NIGC basically were

5 underneath manual fingerprints. So in order to

6 do that, you went and visited on the 9th floor

7 up there. You had boxes up and down the floor

8 and up to the ceilings and all sorts of offices

9 filled full of vendor licenses. I mean, well,

10 background licensing or whatever it is, but can

11 I as a tribe, if it's in my gaming ordinance

12 that was approved by the chairman of the

13 National Indian Gaming Commission, can I use the

14 system that I'm paying for to begin with as a

15 tribal regulator? In other words, when I was

16 paying $35 and now I'm paying $24 for a vendor

17 license, can I run that person through you guys

18 even though you don't have any regulations

19 dealing with vendor licensing? Can I still do

20 that? Can I run a vendor license if in my

21 gaming ordinance it says I will license these

22 vendors?

23 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: I think that was

24 one of the questions that was in the slides.

25 STEVE YORK: Like I say, I think I can

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1 do it because I'm giving you a check for that

2 person to begin with, and it has no bearing on

3 your system one way or the other. It's just a

4 little bleep in the space in the electronic

5 format, so it's not a big deal to me, but, I

6 mean, if you found out and sent one of your

7 field investigators and say I'm going to give

8 you an NOV because you're trying to license

9 vendors through this deal, you can't do it,

10 well, it says in my gaming ordinance that you

11 approved that I can, then what kind of catch 22

12 are we going to have?

13 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Well, I think

14 that's one of the questions we have in front of

15 us is there are some tribes who have vendor

16 licensing that's arranged with their state and

17 they work --

18 STEVE YORK: I'm going to take it one

19 step further. You guys license people

20 underneath, what, 502.14, correct? There's ten

21 positions in there that you say they're required

22 to have a license. So if I read that right, if

23 I've got a gaming vendor in there and he's got a

24 server in the house, and he can come in, his

25 technicians can come in and open that gaming

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1 machine and stuff even though he doesn't have

2 access to build a separate box, you know, but he

3 still has access to that system through his

4 server or through that individual machine. So

5 I'm saying underneath there he's covered

6 underneath one of your definitions, underneath

7 502.14. So I'm arguing that with you, too. I'm

8 saying that you don't have to have a regulation

9 to say that you can either license vendors or

10 not because it's already covered underneath your

11 current standards or your current regulations.

12 That's all I'm saying.

13 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Okay. Thank you.

14 RON TWOHATCHET: My name is Ron

15 Twohatchet. On Page 685 on the first column

16 there, it says fingerprinting for non-primary

17 management officials. It lists two areas where

18 NIGC is responsible for taking fingerprint cards

19 from primary management officials and key

20 employees. Like you said, your question, your

21 question is addressed here. Should the

22 commission develop or implement rules and

23 regulations to fingerprint vendors, consultants

24 and other non-employees that have access to the

25 gaming operations of the tribe? So the question

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1 that addresses it here is that should the

2 commission adopt regulations that would allow

3 tribes, at their option, to submit fingerprint

4 cards to the commission for vendors,

5 consultants, and other non-employees that have

6 access to gaming operations?

7 So in his statement that these regulations

8 already exist under some part of the regulation,

9 is it true, because according to this you don't

10 have those regulations for vendors and

11 consultants in place with NIGC whereas a tribe

12 may have those in place. So I guess what

13 they're asking is that if the tribe has it in

14 place, would NIGC also incorporate that into

15 their regulations so that they could support

16 what the tribes have?

17 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Well, that's what

18 we're looking at right now. We're looking at

19 Lael with regard to what do we do now with

20 management officials or key employees only.

21 Some tribes don't want to have their vendors

22 licensed, but some of them do. Some of them

23 have other mechanisms that they can use. They

24 can use their states, and the question is should

25 we be expanding our scope to include that if

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1 it's at the tribe's request and how do we handle

2 that. That's the question. I think the

3 question will turn and what we're looking for is

4 do you want us to do that? Should it be an

5 opt-in for tribes?

6 LAEL ECHO-HAWK: The other issue with

7 that is that we have an agreement with the FBI.

8 They're the ones that actually do the

9 fingerprinting, do that stuff for us, and so it

10 may require an adjustment to the MOU that we

11 have with them, and if it's something that

12 tribes want, then we can certainly look at that

13 as an option, but currently it's my

14 understanding that within the agency, we only

15 review those two categories of fingerprinting

16 for tribes, and if it's something that tribes

17 want, then it's something that we need to hear

18 about and then go forth with that mechanism to

19 do that.

20 JAMIE HUMMINGBIRD: Jamie Hummingbird

21 with the Cherokee Nation Gaming Commission.

22 Just to kind of tail onto this, one of things

23 that popped in my head when I was reading that

24 particular question was, and it goes to

25 Mr. York's statement as well, if under that

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1 definition of a key employee or a PMO, and it

2 has any other person deemed to be a key employee

3 by the tribe. So the tribe could theoretically

4 say that a vendor employee is going to be

5 considered as a key employee. However, I'm not

6 sure if the NIGC or even if the tribes or the

7 vendors would want to have the burden of

8 supplying all of their information as a key

9 employee and have that on record with the NIGC.

10 That may be a consideration. Another thing is

11 the backgrounds that we do on vendor employees

12 is not as thorough as I would like it to be. It

13 would be very expensive to do it otherwise, but

14 if we were to have -- if there was a regulation

15 that puts clarity in there that allowed for us

16 to do that, but did not require the person's

17 file to be on file with the NIGC, that may be

18 something that would be important to review for

19 tribes and the vendor employees.

20 BARBARA COLLIER: Barbara Collier with

21 the Quapaw Tribal Gaming Agency. Jamie just

22 made me think about one of my worst nightmares,

23 and that is the onset of us as regulators

24 looking at off-site vendors, Internet gaming

25 possibilities, those kinds of vendors, and to a

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1 gaming commissioner, I think that's one of our

2 worst fears is to have someone be able to

3 address our system as a whole that we haven't

4 done a thorough -- very thorough background on,

5 and it's getting more and more difficult to do

6 that as we move forward with these issues

7 because sometimes these companies will -- not

8 sometimes, most often. Even the large companies

9 will say, well, we don't have certain specific

10 technicians that address just your facility.

11 We have people in India or England or, you know,

12 California or Connecticut or wherever they're

13 from, they're located for this company in that

14 area. So they're not on site, but they have a

15 very specific -- they can specifically address

16 your system remotely without your knowledge of

17 whether they were an outstanding citizen. So I

18 think, too, we need to consider what might be in

19 our future, which I think we all know that we're

20 looking at more and more technology out there to

21 put demands on the regulations of gaming

22 commissions and agencies. So it would help us,

23 I believe, to be able to have a better, you

24 know, perhaps some of us that can afford to,

25 utilize companies that are doing background

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1 checks and things like that other than the ones

2 that we can send in to NIGC, but if indeed we do

3 have to start looking into these more

4 thoroughly, it makes more sense for us and puts

5 my mind at better ease for an FBI background

6 check than it would be for some state or local

7 organization to give me that comfort zone. So

8 if that's something that we would be able to

9 have, that would be great.

10 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Any other comments?

11 JANICE ROWE-KURAK: I'm Janice

12 Rowe-Kurak. I'm chairman of the Iowa Tribe of

13 Oklahoma. First, I would like to say thank you

14 to Governor Anoatubby and the Chickasaw Nation

15 for hosting this. Also I'd like to say thank

16 you to the NIGC. Thank you for bringing this

17 here and hearing from us. We appreciate the

18 opportunity that the NIGC has given us for this

19 dialogue regarding these regulations. As a

20 tribal leader, I believe that we need to hear

21 from these different tribes and these different

22 leaders. It kind of lets us know that even

23 though they're on a day-to-day basis, we feel

24 like sometimes we're experiencing these issues

25 alone. As we hear, we're not alone, and you had

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1 said something about reaching a happy medium. I

2 believe these consultations is the way to reach

3 that goal. Thank you for the opportunity.

4 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Any other comments?

5 Don't rile up Jess again. The lights came on in

6 the bar. Well, in the absence of any further

7 comment or additional comments here, that's

8 putting aside written comments that we hope we

9 will receive from everyone here, we might do a

10 last comment from the two commissioners. Any

11 others? Last call for comments. Lael, was

12 there anything in particular? I think we've

13 touched on just about everything. Okay. Dan

14 first.

15 ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER LITTLE: Well,

16 like I said earlier, before everybody leaves, I

17 just want to thank you for coming today, and I

18 know this is kind of a hard process for us to

19 get used to, you know, and I will say it again.

20 You know, the NIGC, we don't want to be talking

21 to you or at you. We want to be talking with

22 you, and that's how we come together and

23 collaboratively make good decisions for this

24 industry. We've heard a lot of good things

25 here. I never took this job expecting it to be

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1 an easy ride, and I do appreciate the poignant

2 and difficult questions, and I look forward to

3 more of them in the future, and this is just the

4 beginning, and once again, thank you for your

5 time today.

6 VICE-CHAIRWOMAN COCHRAN: I just want to

7 say again to the tribal leaders and to the

8 chairmen thank you for your time. Thank you for

9 giving us an opportunity to address you. I

10 always appreciate very much how busy your

11 schedules are. Thank you for carving out time

12 for us. I recognize it's very special, so thank

13 you. Thank you also to the other attendees and

14 the other regulators that are here. I know you

15 all put in a lot of work to protect the assets

16 of the tribe. I know Mr. Morgan, Mr. Green,

17 you're protecting my tribe's assets and you're

18 therefore protecting my child's assets, and that

19 means a lot to me, so thank you. Safe travels

20 to going home. I wish you well.

21 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: I think we might

22 actually have one other comment.

23 JOE BUNCH: My name is Joe Bunch, and

24 I'm chairman of the United Keetoowah Band Gaming

25 Commission. When we look at the rules and

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1 regulations, just look at it across the board,

2 big tribe, little tribe. We have a very

3 important job, a very serious job. Sometimes

4 our decision making aren't the most popular in

5 the world. What I'm trying to say is let's make

6 it fair across the board, big tribe, little

7 tribe. When you add equipment, when you look at

8 software systems, when you look at changing the

9 MICS systems, to go into those software systems,

10 it costs. It costs a tremendous amount of

11 money, so what I'm trying to say is down the

12 road, when we look at these things, believe you

13 me, we'll be there. We can talk about that, and

14 you can see where the cost goes.

15 The other thing is we have the opportunity

16 to be proactive. We have the opportunity to

17 visit with the commission. We have the

18 opportunity. The last time the chairman was

19 here in Oklahoma, he got a welcome reception,

20 believe you me. When he tried to change the

21 definition of Class II bingo from a 5 second

22 game to a 20 second game, he just about cut out

23 half of our profits so to speak. We're talking

24 about that kind of money when we're looking at

25 these rules and regulations.

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1 So ladies and gentlemen, look at your

2 policies, look at your rules and regulations,

3 take note. See what it's affecting, how it's

4 affecting you and your operation. Granted,

5 these folks are willing to listen, and that's

6 part of the administration. The administration

7 said they would come back to the Indians and try

8 to help out, so here's our chance. Thank you

9 very much.

10 DAVID QUALLS: (Comments submitted for

11 transcription) The Oklahoma Indian Gaming

12 Association's membership includes 21 tribes

13 engaged in Indian gaming in Oklahoma. Gaming is

14 a major part of the lives of these tribes and

15 the state of Oklahoma. Indian gaming employs

16 over 14,000 people in Oklahoma and generates

17 gross revenues of over 3.5 billion annually.

18 The OIGA congratulates the new commissioners

19 for initiating the regulatory review. This

20 effort creates an opportunity to rebuild trust

21 between the NIGC and the tribes who fund the

22 agency. The review allows the NIGC to break

23 with the past and demonstrate a true commitment

24 to the regulatory structure and limitations

25 created by Congress and IGRA. Most importantly,

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1 this activity allows the NIGC to turn the page

2 and advance that tribal sovereignty embodied in

3 IGRA rather than attack sovereignty through

4 unlawful regulations.

5 As the NIGC conducts its review, the OIGA

6 suggests that the commission evaluate each

7 regulation under consideration in light of

8 specific first principles. Initially the

9 regulatory structure of IGRA must be respected.

10 The tribes are the only regulator of Class II

11 gaming. Each regulation must respect rather

12 than diminish that congressionally mandated

13 role. As to Class III, by allowing tribes to

14 define the regulatory framework in their

15 compacts with the states, Congress effectively

16 removed the NIGC from the vast bulk of the Class

17 III regulation as the courts have confirmed.

18 Accordingly any NIGC regulation should have

19 clear authorization by reciting an identified

20 section of IGRA.

21 Enforcement should reflect the primary role

22 of the tribal gaming regulators. Accordingly,

23 the OIGA encourages an NIGC enforcement process

24 that begins with collaboration between the

25 tribal gaming regulatory authority and the NIGC.

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1 Such an approach, founded on dialogue rather

2 than litigation, should be both efficient and

3 inexpensive. Only if such dialogue proves

4 unsuccessful should an NOV be issued. In such a

5 case, the NOV process should follow clearly

6 defined rules designed to promote transparency

7 and fairness resulting in a documented, reasoned

8 decision. We are encouraged by the NOI's

9 mention of that process, along with

10 consideration of discontinuance of NOV's for

11 late fees. We strongly encourage the commission

12 to go one step further, and begin refraining

13 from the use of NOV's except in cases of

14 substantial and ongoing violations of law, or

15 where there is an immediate threat or danger to

16 the tribal operation or assets.

17 Second, because one of the primary statutory

18 purposes of IGRA is for Tribes to develop their

19 economies, and thereby generate funds for

20 vitally important governmental purposes, the

21 NIGC should consider the cost burden on Tribes

22 of each regulation examined. This consideration

23 is of even greater importance in light of the

24 uncertain economic times. As Tribal regulators

25 know, regulatory objectives can be met through a

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1 variety of alternatives. The least costly

2 regulation that reasonably meets the regulatory

3 goal should be the first choice. In other

4 words, each regulation should consider the

5 economic cost in relation to the regulatory

6 necessity of the rule.

7 This cost of regulation is of particular

8 interest to OIGA members in the context of

9 self-regulation as allowed by IGRA. Oklahoma

10 tribes spend millions of dollars in high quality

11 effective regulation of their gaming activities

12 each year. In particular, the Oklahoma tribal

13 regulators have developed the highest degree of

14 professionalism in the regulation of Class II

15 gaming. The success of the tribal gaming

16 regulators is confirmed by both the extremely

17 low number of NOV's in Oklahoma and the

18 marketplace confidence expressed by our growing

19 player base. Many OIGA members would qualify

20 for the certificate of self-regulation

21 authorized by IGRA. However, the cost and

22 complicated process of obtaining self-regulation

23 status embodied in existing NIGC regulations

24 impede tribes from receiving that

25 sovereignty-based benefit. We urge the NIGC to

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1 streamline its regulations so that the exemplary

2 regulatory environment created by OIGA members

3 will be recognized as Congress intended. We

4 stand ready to work with the commission to

5 finally fully implement this statutory

6 provision.

7 Third, each regulation should be evaluated

8 for its impact on attracting and protecting

9 capital. Tribal gaming is capital dependent.

10 Access to capital is presently limited for

11 nearly all the tribes. However, for many of

12 OIGA's member tribes, it has always been a

13 challenge to attract capital. Thus OIGA member

14 tribes long ago learned to be creative in how

15 they attract capital to grow their business.

16 Particularly when considering management

17 contract, collateral agreement and sole

18 propriety interest regulations, the OIGA urges

19 the commissioners to recognize the economic

20 reality and analyze whether the regulation

21 promotes or diminishes access to capital. The

22 OIGA strongly believes that economic decisions

23 are within the prerogative of the tribal

24 government and, short of violations of law, the

25 NIGC should not seek to usurp that prerogative

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1 through regulation or administrative practice.

2 In addition to formal capital investment,

3 the Oklahoma tribes and others around the

4 country have created significant economic

5 capital through technological innovation.

6 Therefore, as part of the primary principle of

7 attracting and protecting capial, NIGC

8 regulations should encourage rather than impede

9 technological innovation. The tribal review of

10 the MICS and tech standards should avoid

11 barriers to entry while not compelling the

12 obsolescence of existing investments.

13 Accordingly, the OIGA supports repeal of the

14 five-year limitation on grandfather provisions

15 in the tech standards.

16 Finally the OIGA tribes strongly urge the

17 commission to remember that the NIGC budget is

18 funded 100 percent by the tribes. We believe

19 that the NIGC budgets and staffing should

20 reflect tribal needs, not bureaucratic

21 convenience. In particular we have seen in

22 recent years the opening of the new offices in

23 areas that did not need them, at great cost to

24 the commssion and ultimately the tribes. It

25 would be of much greater benefit to tribes, and

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1 lead to better overall regulation if that

2 funding supported more training for tribal

3 regulators and operators. We encourage the

4 commission to consider this idea and stand ready

5 to collaborate in developing more training

6 options.

7 When considering MICS and tech standards, we

8 encourage the NIGC to remember the primary

9 regularly authority of the tribes. We encourage

10 the NIGC to remember the difference between

11 standards which a tribe can meet by operating

12 procedures reflective of particular tribal needs

13 and an imposed, mandatory one size fits all

14 operating procedure as standard. Class II

15 gaming has numerous regulatory procedures and

16 standards that are unique to it. We strongly

17 believe that those rules dealing with Class II

18 gaming require dialogue and focus specifically

19 on them, and we stand ready to work with the

20 commission on addressing those unique standards

21 and procedures.

22 In conclusion, the OIGA applauds the new

23 approach initiated by Chairwoman Stevens,

24 Vice-Chairwoman Cochran, and Commissioner

25 Little. The OIGA values its relationship with

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1 you and stands ready to work together to

2 strengthen tribal sovereignty, honor the rule of

3 law, and further increase the benefits of Indian

4 gaming for our member tribes, their people and

5 Oklahoma.

6 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you, sir.

7 So, in closing, I want to say thank you on

8 behalf of the commission. I want to say many,

9 many thanks to the Chickasaw Nation for hosting

10 today and being so gracious to open up their

11 home to us. I also want to -- where I come

12 from, I put my hands up and I say thank you to

13 our staff without which we could not have

14 organized and put this meeting together. I want

15 to thank especially the tribal leaders and the

16 staff that have traveled here today. Even if

17 it's just to sit and listen and bring back the

18 information to your tribe, I want to thank you

19 all for attending. I know many of you have come

20 a very long way to be here today, and I thank

21 you for the time that you've taken. This is the

22 beginning of a new relationship with the NIGC.

23 This is the new NIGC. We're dealing with what

24 we walked into, and we're doing it in a new way,

25 and we want to talk with you as we move forward

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1 so that tribes have a place at the table and

2 they can help us set the agenda and that

3 everyone has an ownership in what we do with the

4 decisions we make. We can't be in a vacuum and

5 make decisions. We need to have well-informed

6 decisions. These meetings provide us that

7 information. So thank you all. I look forward

8 to an ongoing dialogue with everyone and this

9 will be continued. This is not the end. This

10 is the beginning. So thank you all and I wish

11 you all safe travels home.

12 (Meeting concluded)

13

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1 CERTIFICATE

2

3 I, D. Luke Epps, Certified Shorthand Reporter

4 within and for the State of Oklahoam, state that

5 the above and foregoing transcript was transcribed

6 by me to the best of my ability; and that i am not

7 an attorney for nor relative of any of said parties

8 or otherwise interested in the event of said action.

9

10 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my

11 hand and seal this 25th day of January, 2011.

12

13

14

15

16 _______________________

17 D. Luke Epps, CSR, RPR

18 CSR NO. 1841

19

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0

060 96:15

080 96:15,18

1

1 64:23 65:2

1,400 110:14

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100 101:16,17,21,22

130:18

11:00 54:9

12 18:22 73:1

120 112:22 113:2

12th 26:21 58:2,13

58:20

13 29:10

13,175 26:18

14,000 125:16

15 54:4,8

18 1:10 48:23

1841 134:18

18th 18:21

1986 64:6 92:4

1988 36:4

1:30 91:3

2

2 26:12

20 87:5 96:16,17

102:14 124:22

20,000 110:12

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89:1 98:20,23

2005 20:14

2006 98:20

2008 48:24 71:24

89:22 112:24

2009 106:6

2011 1:10 134:11

21 125:12

22 115:11

233 38:17

24 9:25 10:1 114:16

25 41:17 48:2 62:8

64:23 65:2

25th 134:11

26 62:10

2701 41:17

2703 42:10

2710 87:20

28 38:17

280 86:9

3

3 17:13,13 26:12

75:4

3.5 125:17

30 10:1 93:5 101:13

101:21

30,000 14:11 34:25

35 114:16

36 58:24

4

40 82:11 101:23

110:13

40,000 110:11

400 38:17

5

5 41:18 100:17

124:21

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502 20:7 79:22

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514 47:4

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45:5

558.3 48:3

559 22:18 42:14

87:18

6

60/40 64:5,7 92:1,6

92:23 101:18 102:9

102:18

685 116:15

7

70/30 64:5 91:25

92:19 102:8

75 85:25

75,000 85:24

8

80 97:9

80,000 85:25

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102:2,6,17

83 102:16,20

86 18:24

9

9 42:10

9:00 1:11

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a

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127:16

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64:18 69:13 94:20

102:15 128:19

based 17:17 47:11

48:4 51:8 52:11,17

77:12,12 86:6 103:3

104:4 128:25

basically 60:14

66:14 71:9 81:23

91:23,24 92:6 93:18

93:21,23 94:10

95:11 97:22 98:14

98:19 114:4

basis 16:25 33:8

45:23 62:21 68:24

109:13 121:23

battling 36:25 37:1

bearing 115:2

beautiful 13:15

beautifully 61:25

66:9

beginning 11:14

78:1 123:4 132:22

133:10

begins 28:7 126:24

behalf 5:1 71:6

106:16 132:8

belief 44:22 48:22

believe 17:8 45:8

71:4 75:13,18 105:3

120:23 121:20

122:2 124:12,20

130:18 131:17

believes 44:9 45:12

46:22 67:21 129:22

beneficiary 24:12

77:10

benefit 20:23 35:7

35:14,20 40:9,16

44:21 72:24 81:9

84:18,21 104:25

128:25 130:25

benefits 35:19 132:3

berrey 54:23 74:5,6

74:7 78:22

best 16:14 35:22,23

39:9 77:7 134:6

better 3:19 9:15,23

10:7 71:5 76:6

109:6 120:23 121:5

131:1

beyond 85:1 86:23

99:3 104:19,22

bia 30:2 98:8

big 21:2,15,24 86:11

115:5 124:2,6

bigger 11:16

bill 2:8 49:24 85:21

billion 125:17

bind 103:22

bingo 3:4,9 64:6

74:1 124:21

bit 20:23 34:10

50:24 53:23 82:6

blank 100:14

bleep 115:4

board 38:14 124:1,6

bodies 82:20

body 8:21 108:11

bogged 26:1,8

bosses 89:14

bought 62:2

box 116:2

boxes 83:14 114:7

bread 108:20

break 54:4,10 82:2

91:2,6,8 125:22

breakdown 77:5

brian 82:9

brief 13:13 59:5

74:16

briefing 58:24

briefly 79:22

bring 13:25 15:18

30:14 35:4 51:16

56:8,14 98:12

113:19 132:17

bringing 38:23 57:6

57:22 121:16

broadly 24:18

broken 33:15 37:16

39:5,6,6 40:23

[asks - broken] Page 3

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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109:21

brought 29:25 47:20

68:5 113:20

budget 30:2 62:13

72:22 73:5 107:9

108:9 130:17

budgeting 10:12

budgets 130:19

build 50:3 52:7 87:3

87:7 116:2

building 7:5 86:8,23

87:7

built 50:11

bulk 126:16

bulletin 20:13 35:22

37:10 45:22 46:13

46:16,24 71:21

79:21 109:15

bulletins 37:9 44:7,8

75:15 78:23 79:1

83:22 112:8

bunch 123:23,23

burden 20:21 43:12

56:7 119:7 127:21

bureau 97:21

bureaucratic 130:20

burn 39:20

busby 106:20,20

bush 36:5,23

busier 15:5

business 2:24 10:20

40:25 52:1 54:24

56:3 97:24 129:15

busy 15:4 123:10

butter 108:21

butting 32:6

button 27:2,3,4

buy 25:10,12 65:12

68:7 97:18,20,22

98:1

c

c 17:13 26:12,12

c.f.r. 48:3

calculated 42:9

calculations 42:7

california 67:6 75:2

80:13 86:10 95:18

98:17,25,25 110:6,7

120:12

call 34:12 95:12,13

122:11

called 27:2,3 35:11

61:8

candor 39:25

capability 85:1

capable 84:12

capacity 79:15

capial 130:7

capital 129:9,9,10

129:13,15,21 130:2

130:5

capitalized 40:8

capitalizing 40:15

cards 116:18 117:4

care 15:6 95:16

careers 65:22

carrot 105:8 106:10

carry 44:20 75:5

carving 123:11

case 32:2 39:12

66:19,24 99:5,10,10

109:13,13 127:5

cases 55:6 127:13

cash 85:4,17

casino 1:9 43:1 70:9

casinos 37:16 70:12

catalog 9:23

catch 115:11

categories 118:15

caught 48:18

causing 47:19

ceilings 114:8

certain 20:18 38:8

38:12 40:2 101:13

120:9

certainly 2:20,22

8:17 9:1 15:13 22:6

32:11 69:17 91:1,16

113:22 118:12

certificate 20:22

128:20 134:1

certified 106:12

134:3

cetera 18:3 27:24

chair 6:5 31:20

38:23 40:22 41:7,10

60:6 61:20 64:19,19

94:6,8

chairman 29:2

30:11 38:6 40:6,20

49:20 54:23,23

61:20 64:8 66:22

68:15 71:24 72:9

74:5,7 81:14 85:7

87:21 92:17 94:2,4

99:22 100:7,8,16

114:12 121:12

123:24 124:18

chairmen 12:18

123:8

chairperson 70:6

72:14,15 81:10 94:2

94:3 100:19 106:25

chairwoman 2:1

4:25 5:4,22 12:2,12

13:4 14:5 17:5 23:7

29:22 31:17 38:5

40:6 49:19 54:1,11

57:5,23 58:8,19

68:3 70:3 72:9,17

73:9 74:16 78:24

81:25 84:2 90:18

91:7 94:3 96:11,21

96:24 100:1,8,12,16

100:22 101:1 103:4

105:25 106:15,19

109:22,23 111:5

113:14,22 114:23

115:13 116:13

117:17 121:10

122:4 123:6,21

131:23,24 132:6

challenge 50:2

129:13

challenges 45:7 79:8

chance 125:8

change 11:9 37:14

49:8 51:17 59:17

63:25 67:16 70:13

74:4 88:24 103:10

108:23 124:20

changed 3:14 40:24

61:18 67:18 72:21

104:2

changes 11:18,22

14:13 15:12 45:14

45:25 46:2,25 56:15

89:22 97:7 112:5,6

changing 45:23

56:14 124:8

characterized 52:24

charge 51:4 82:12

85:15 93:24

chat 5:11 6:18

check 115:1 121:6

checklist 88:4

checks 121:1

cherokee 32:22

108:15 118:21

chickasaw 2:7 4:19

5:8,24 82:4 84:10

85:6 121:14 132:9

chickasaws 5:13

chief 88:2,2 100:9

chiefs 12:17

child's 123:18

children 109:7

choctaws 84:22

choice 128:3

choose 113:16

chooses 47:1

chose 51:5 52:10

christie 6:13

circuit 90:6,6,8,12

circumstances

32:13 81:14,18

[broken - circumstances] Page 4

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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citation 41:17

citizen 120:17

city 39:3

civil 104:5 110:19

claims 55:7

clarification 49:22

72:13 112:19

clarifications 54:17

clarify 23:1 52:20

101:4

clarity 24:10 119:15

class 21:16,16,17,20

21:23,24 22:1 30:24

30:24 34:6,7 36:16

38:16,19 39:8 43:18

44:6,25 45:4,5,12

46:9,14 48:11 59:15

59:16,18 61:5 63:21

66:21,25 70:9,11,12

70:15 71:18 74:18

74:18 75:4,6,10,14

75:19,20,21 76:7

77:8 80:4,6,8,13

82:16,17 88:15

89:12 90:7,9 92:4

95:22,23 96:5

108:20,21,22 109:8

109:9,11 124:21

126:10,13,16

128:14 131:14,17

clause 49:2 100:18

clear 21:12 53:8

62:4 66:10 67:13

75:3 87:19 126:19

clearly 77:5 127:5

clerical 71:3 81:15

107:20

click 27:3,4

clients 102:16

105:21 106:17

climate 92:20,20

close 31:13 35:10

43:1 97:5

closely 31:11,18

closer 111:13

closes 18:22 26:20

closing 132:7

coast 7:19

coattail 97:23

cochran 5:23 9:17

12:2,12 40:6 57:5

106:15,19 109:23

111:5 123:6 131:24

code 87:20,22

coffee 54:5

coincidentally

112:24

coined 69:7

coleman 48:25

100:3

collaborate 131:5

collaboration 7:10

126:24

collaborative 9:6

collaboratively

15:14 32:6 122:23

collateral 129:17

collect 52:2 65:2,8

110:18

collier 54:20 119:20

119:20

colorado 59:21

66:19,24 99:5,9,11

column 116:15

comanche 79:4

112:20

come 2:19 5:15 11:2

12:3,16 14:2 15:8

17:2,4 19:13 24:2

24:11,25 27:17 34:6

35:23 38:10 42:16

49:25 52:2 54:7,8

56:15 58:18 59:25

61:7,21 68:25 73:2

78:4,7 83:12 91:3

93:2,20 98:22 108:2

112:1,11 115:24,25

122:22 125:7

132:11,19

comes 3:21 25:13

40:9 50:18 92:15

comfort 121:7

coming 2:18 15:25

16:6 20:3 24:4 36:4

41:4 52:12 65:6

70:1 75:25 79:7

107:13 122:17

commend 64:13

65:18

commended 103:20

comment 18:22,24

24:13 26:20 27:14

36:3 38:6 49:21

58:13 83:2 91:11

107:3,16 111:6

122:7,10 123:22

comments 12:10

14:6,20,21 15:9,11

15:16 16:8,12,13,13

18:25 19:3,5,12,15

20:10 21:3,4 23:17

27:8,11,21 28:22

29:4 30:11 33:9

34:24 39:24 40:23

41:16 42:3 54:25

55:1,12,12,25 56:1

56:2 57:2 58:3

60:13 68:22 69:12

69:12,17,19 70:2

75:25 78:1 79:21,24

82:1 90:23,24 91:16

103:5 106:13,16

109:24 110:16

112:15 121:10

122:4,7,8,11 125:10

commercial 44:11

commission 1:7

2:14,18 3:15 5:2,5,7

6:23 9:18 11:25

13:19 16:2 17:19

18:3 20:1 21:6,10

21:17 22:7 24:2

25:1,4,18 26:22

27:13 30:21 32:23

33:1 40:22 41:7,10

55:11 60:6,12 62:21

65:15,17,23 68:13

68:14,21 70:1 71:8

71:25 73:2 74:23

76:4 77:21 78:3

79:5 81:4 84:11,12

86:16 91:20 92:18

94:15 98:6 99:9,21

101:19 103:9

106:22 110:5

114:13 116:22

117:2,4 118:21

123:25 124:17

126:6 127:11 129:4

130:17 131:4,20

132:8

commissioner 6:1

13:4,11 19:19 30:18

33:5 40:21 60:10

82:4 86:8,13 88:1

91:19 97:6 120:1

122:15 131:24

commissioner's

86:24

commissioners 2:13

12:11 14:7 19:24

55:13 56:4 57:8

79:7 122:10 125:18

129:19

commissions 37:19

55:24 56:3 76:24

77:1 80:5 120:22

commitment 13:7

27:13 125:23

committed 10:23

26:3

committee 21:25

23:16,18 29:7,20

30:2,21 37:5 54:24

59:8 72:23 73:22

77:17 98:8

committees 29:9,16

55:4 73:20 113:7,9

[citation - committees] Page 5

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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common 9:7,8 59:14

commssion 130:24

communicate 24:17

24:20,21 77:3

communicating

25:8

communication

18:2,2 24:15 76:22

77:5 81:12 94:11

community 15:6

compact 31:25

32:15 45:7 75:7,23

88:18 89:2,11 98:19

98:24

compacts 38:18

48:9 88:15 89:10

109:18 126:15

companies 22:23

120:7,8,25

company 51:3,12,23

120:13

compelling 130:11

competing 32:18

complaint 76:10

complete 89:25

108:9

complex 89:5

compliance 43:5,9

43:12 55:14 57:12

80:23 104:1 105:8

complicated 128:22

comply 35:9 61:18

61:22,23 107:11

comprehensive

59:12

concept 95:11

concern 8:4 43:20

47:19

concerned 10:15,16

94:21

concerning 43:6

55:6

concerns 7:15,25

8:2,21 18:7 21:7,8

23:6 24:16 25:21

41:14 68:4 70:4

83:18

concluded 133:12

conclusion 49:14

131:22

conduct 48:10

113:24

conducting 10:20

conducts 126:5

conferences 19:25

confidence 128:18

confines 112:14

confirmed 126:17

128:16

conflict 48:18 49:2

49:11 90:11

conform 42:7,22

conformity 42:12

confrontational

3:11

confrontations 3:8

confused 36:6

congratulate 63:4

64:7

congratulates

125:18

congress 41:18 64:2

66:7 67:12,14 84:22

85:8 91:23 92:8

93:14 94:12 96:13

125:25 126:15

129:3

congressionally

126:12

connect 87:8

connecticut 67:7

95:19 99:12 120:12

consider 32:11 34:9

70:21 87:15,23

88:25 89:11 107:5

113:11 120:18

127:21 128:4 131:4

consideration 80:16

81:18 102:19

119:10 126:7

127:10,22

considered 46:9

119:5

considering 26:15

45:17 129:16 131:7

consistency 44:2

consistent 32:18

42:6

consistently 57:16

constantly 36:25

construct 30:12

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consultants 116:23

117:5,11

consultation 1:6

2:12 5:9 7:4 8:16

9:5 10:22 17:5,6,12

19:5 27:2 30:4

31:15 33:2 41:8,13

68:8 71:23 72:3,6

72:21 74:10 76:12

106:9 112:24 113:4

113:7

consultations 7:10

7:12,18 15:1 28:12

56:12 58:5,15 74:17

113:15 122:2

consulted 106:4

consulting 17:24

19:22 98:6

contact 16:14 49:18

contained 48:14

contains 76:12

context 17:23

102:24 128:8

continue 45:3

112:13

continued 133:9

continuing 110:21

110:23

contract 24:5 53:9

53:13 70:8,17,20,22

71:6 85:1,22,23

86:2 92:14 97:24

102:17 129:17

contracting 93:2

contractor 92:16

98:1

contractors 24:10

56:13

contracts 20:9 21:1

24:6 60:3,24 64:5

66:14 84:25 85:2,2

85:3,4,5,5,10,14

86:3 92:1,2 101:19

contradictory 32:19

control 43:18,21

44:3,14 45:10,18,20

46:1,5 47:2 67:9

70:10,16,19,20,23

81:8 86:19 95:7,8

95:13

controls 45:4,9 67:1

67:2 95:9,14,20,21

95:24 96:1,4

controversial 23:19

controversy 74:21

convenience 130:21

conversation 75:1

99:19

conversations 57:8

76:2

convert 102:7

converts 102:17

cookie 83:6

copies 51:4

copyright 18:3

corner 104:19

correct 93:10 96:8

115:20

cost 35:6,13,18,20

37:11 85:21 124:14

127:21 128:5,7,21

130:23

costly 128:1

costs 124:10,10

council 25:2 36:3

40:21 73:7

councils 79:13

[common - councils] Page 6

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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counsel 48:21,25

56:12 58:25 99:23

99:24,25 100:2,4,20

105:25

counselor 6:5

country 2:17 17:2

18:20 23:25 27:16

31:7 33:10 34:3

36:18 37:19 50:2

58:6 68:25 74:25

82:14 103:21 130:4

couple 20:16 22:2,6

22:8 23:12,20 83:25

103:24 105:11

course 76:7 107:22

114:3

court 64:12,14

67:17 71:17 90:8,11

90:12,13

courts 71:20 126:17

cover 31:24 87:11

covered 13:24 116:5

116:10

covers 81:23

create 9:22 10:13

32:17 94:25

created 61:8 93:24

125:25 129:2 130:4

creates 90:10

125:20

creating 32:8,9

creative 129:14

credibility 3:6 4:16

criminal 86:10,12

104:4

criticism 7:6

csr 1:25 134:17,18

cunningham 6:9

curious 72:11

current 10:24 22:4

84:13,19,24 87:3

102:1 116:11,11

currently 23:11

63:11 86:6 118:13

customers 108:22

108:24

cut 124:22

cutter 83:7

d

d 1:25 108:1 134:3

134:17

d.c. 13:2 18:16

24:23 90:6

daily 55:15,19,19

63:16

dakota 18:18

damn 64:25

dan 5:25 14:6 68:20

69:5,7 84:3 103:5

122:13

dana 6:12

danger 127:15

date 58:3,14 95:2

dated 48:23

david 125:10

day 2:9 14:24 15:10

18:23,24 33:8,8

42:2,2 66:5 79:19

81:4 92:20 95:3,4,4

104:11,11 112:22

113:2 121:23,23

134:11

days 51:17 114:4

dead 65:15

deadline 58:2,13,20

deal 31:8 50:7 55:18

55:19,23 61:8 64:4

64:7 66:25 85:3

102:7 115:5,9

dealing 114:19

131:17 132:23

deals 94:25

debated 41:4

debt 50:10

december 106:5

decide 30:5,9 34:19

35:2 67:17 87:6

96:2

decided 51:14

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70:16 76:4 124:4

127:8

decisions 17:17

27:20 53:2 122:23

129:22 133:4,5,6

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73:18

deficiencies 57:12

57:13,17

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101:15 127:6

defines 42:10

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24:12 42:4,5 53:11

79:23 86:2 119:1

124:21

definitions 116:6

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109:1

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108:5 111:1

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determination 24:5

32:18,19 48:1 101:7

determinations 32:3

32:16

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35:25

determined 84:12

90:7

determines 101:12

determining 42:8

develop 47:10,21

60:23,25 61:4 66:13

94:22,22 104:8

116:22 127:18

developed 45:13,18

50:7 63:19 80:10

128:13

developing 33:19,20

35:5 52:5,22 131:5

development 50:16

52:10

dialogue 17:10

67:25 103:12

121:19 127:1,3

131:18 133:8

dialogues 7:9

dictates 67:3

dictating 30:7

diego 24:13 82:8,10

82:24 105:15

difference 36:12,16

131:10

differences 39:17

45:15 105:10

different 7:20,20,21

7:21,22 8:16 13:3

30:22 36:11 37:8

38:10,18 39:3 59:20

63:10 76:24 79:9

93:22 98:17 111:9

111:10 121:21,21

differentiated 36:9

differently 7:12

difficult 50:1,3,12

51:20 120:5 123:2

difficulties 53:4

difficulty 53:3

diligence 44:23

[counsel - diligence] Page 7

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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diligently 82:13,25

diminish 126:12

diminishes 129:21

direct 55:24

direction 2:16,22

7:8 18:9 25:19

27:25

directly 16:14 76:25

77:2 85:22

director 49:5 55:16

60:11 79:4 91:20

106:21

disadvantaged

97:25

disagree 27:21 99:7

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discontinuance

127:10

discretion 72:14,15

discuss 73:2

discussion 11:3

29:19 63:25 64:1,17

67:11 77:18 88:14

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106:11

distinct 40:13

district 90:12

divide 75:4,24

divided 31:19 60:4

doable 58:3,14,21

59:10

document 46:13

60:16,17,18 61:25

64:18 66:10 88:23

94:20

documented 127:7

documents 34:8

82:19

dog 102:22

doi 30:3

doing 3:3 4:3 7:3

9:14 10:9,24 11:3

11:12,15 14:12 28:9

31:7,21 36:22 37:11

37:21 64:9 76:17

78:18 92:25 93:1

104:22 112:5

120:25 132:24

dollar 79:19 101:17

101:22,23

dollars 4:5,11

128:10

dot 3:5

doubt 95:24

draft 21:11 22:4

75:21

drafted 112:25

drafting 11:6 18:11

23:17

draftings 112:5

drawer 72:1

duct 84:3

due 21:8 36:14

42:17 43:3,23 44:22

duplicative 76:12,15

e

e 10:3 16:9,10 19:1

24:19

earlier 64:8 76:9

122:16

ease 121:5

easier 65:9

easy 46:19 87:18

123:1

echo 6:4 15:20,22

60:20 74:15 79:23

80:9 118:6

economic 34:22

92:20 127:24 128:5

129:19,22 130:4

economically 86:1

economies 127:19

edge 86:14,23

edmore 40:17,17

educating 79:14

effect 11:1 111:19

111:21 112:25

effective 37:11

113:5 128:11

effectively 126:15

efficient 127:2

effort 125:20

eight 97:8 113:8

either 3:25 47:11

55:23 75:7,22 85:22

96:5 116:9

elders 109:6

elect 94:8

elected 71:14

electronic 115:4

eliminate 76:15

eliminated 45:1

57:19

elizabeth 103:7

106:18

embodied 126:2

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