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7 TRANSCRIPT OF

8 NATIONAL INDIAN GAMING COMMISSION MEETING

9 TAKEN ON MARCH 15, 2013, AT 9:15 A.M.

1 0 AT THE HARD ROCK CASINO IN CATOOSA, OKLAHOMA

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2 5 Job No. NJ1625150

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1 CHAIRWOMAN TRACIE STEVENS: Good

2 morning, everyone. I want to go ahead and get

3 started. My name is Tracie Stevens. I'm the

4 chairwoman of the NIGC. We'll go ahead and get

5 started with introductions. We have Jamie

6 Hummingbird from the Cherokee, chair of the

7 commission; is that correct?

8 JAMIE HUMMINGBIRD: Director.

9 CHAIRWOMAN TRACIE STEVENS: Director.

10 JAMIE HUMMINGBIRD: You gave me a

11 promotion, but that's okay.

12 CHAIRWOMAN TRACIE STEVENS: So we'll go

13 ahead and do some introductions. Once Jamie is

14 done, we'll go ahead and get introductions from

15 around the room. I do want to remind everybody

16 that we are being transcribed, and so if you do

17 have a comment, if you could, please, state your

18 name and where you're from. That way it makes

19 it easier for our transcriptionist. So with

20 that, I want to welcome everybody. Thank you so

21 much for coming out for the subjects that we're

22 going to cover today. We really do appreciate

23 your time for coming out. We cannot make good,

24 sound decisions without tribal input. So I

25 appreciate your time and traveling out. So with

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1 that, I will hand it over to Jamie Hummingbird,

2 and he'll do our welcome.

3 JAMIE HUMMINGBIRD: Usually people tell

4 me I don't need a microphone for them to hear

5 but, I think just for the purpose of the

6 transcription, I'll go ahead and use this.

7 I'm not sure if they tell me I speak clearly and

8 loudly or they just tell me I have a big mouth.

9 That was supposed to be funny. Is it that early

10 in the morning for you guys? Okay. Everybody

11 should be used to my jokes by now, too, so a

12 little bit more laughter would be appreciated,

13 but I do want to welcome everybody to Cherokee

14 Nation on behalf of Principal Chief Baker. We

15 are glad to have you in our flagship property,

16 our Hard Rock property here in Tulsa.

17 Just by being here, I think this is sort of

18 a testament to what really kind of not started

19 25 years ago with the passage of the Indian

20 Gaming Regulatory Act. It happened 30, 45 years

21 ago with the forethought of our mothers, our

22 fathers, grandfathers, aunts, uncles that saw an

23 opportunity for tribes to take charge of their

24 own destiny, take charge in fulfilling their own

25 self-determination and providing for their

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1 people. They did that by means of a strong

2 economic engine being Indian gaming, and when

3 the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act was passed in

4 1988, we already had that right to game. We

5 already had that right to perform an economic

6 service for our people and our communities, and

7 I don't think really anybody understood or

8 contemplated when IGRA was passed that we would

9 be coming to the level of success that we are

10 here today.

11 It's because of the Indian Gaming Regulatory

12 Act that we've been able to really kind of

13 expand our operations, and I'm not saying IGRA

14 gave us the right. I'm not saying IGRA was the

15 sole means for us to be here today, but it did

16 give us the means to proceed without much more

17 obstacles in the way of our future, and we have

18 taken that opportunity to where we are now able

19 to fund things that would otherwise not have

20 been possible.

21 We have dialysis centers. We have early

22 start or Head Start childhood education centers.

23 We have emergent schools where our kids learn

24 our native languages. We have so many things,

25 housing, roads, you name it, all because we are

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1 able to provide that through the means of Indian

2 gaming, and it's through the processes that

3 we're going to go through here today, it's a

4 continuation of what happened and what started

5 those many years ago when we had the foresight

6 to look at the laws and look at the legal

7 landscape of things that shape into a way that

8 would benefit us and our people, and I think

9 it's important that we continue that, that

10 commission, and we continue down that path to

11 make our voice heard in the development and

12 implementation of regulations that affect our

13 operations.

14 So I encourage everybody's participation

15 here today. I hope that you would provide some

16 good, meaningful feedback for Tracie Stevens and

17 her staff to take back to Washington, D.C., and

18 use for the betterment of Indian gaming. I want

19 to welcome you again today. If there's anything

20 that we can do to make your stay that much

21 better, it won't cost you any more, but I do

22 accept tips. It's a joke. We can't accept

23 tips. You're regulars. Y'all know that. Come

24 on. Shame on you. Good to see you. I'm glad

25 to see so many faces. If I don't know you,

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1 please come up and introduce yourself. I'd like

2 to get to know the new faces that I haven't seen

3 before because you are my friends out in

4 Oklahoma, and I think it's a good thing for us

5 to keep our camaraderie going, keep our

6 fellowship going, and if there's any way that I

7 can be of assistance to you, just let me know.

8 With that, I'm going to turn it back over to

9 Chairwoman Stevens. Thank you.

10 CHAIRWOMAN TRACIE STEVENS: Thank you,

11 Jamie, and I want to thank the Cherokee Nation

12 for graciously hosting us for this conference or

13 this consultation, and one thing I do want to

14 remind everybody, Tom is back there and he does

15 have a camera. So if anyone doesn't want to be

16 in a photograph, please just raise your hand and

17 he'll steer clear of you if you don't want to be

18 in a photograph, but this will be for public

19 relations purposes. It might be on our website,

20 you know, anything that we might want to do with

21 that. So just, you know, if you don't want to

22 be photographed, that's perfectly

23 understandable.

24 So while we wait for the computer to

25 restart, let's go around the room and we'll do

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1 introductions. We'll start here at the table

2 and then, Tom, if you could take that remote mic

3 and pass it through the audience, that would be

4 really helpful. So I'll start here to my left,

5 and if you can take the microphone and introduce

6 yourself, I would greatly appreciate it.

7 WILLIS DEATHERAGE: My name is Willis

8 Deatherage representing Seminole Nation of

9 Oklahoma, gaming commissioner.

10 ROBIN LASH: Robin Lash. Gaming

11 commissioner, Miami Tribe.

12 JERRY LANKFORD: Jerry Lankford. Gaming

13 commission for the Miami Nation.

14 NELSON JOHNSON: Nelson Johnson. Gaming

15 commissioner for the Muscogee Creek Nation.

16 JAMIE HUMMINGBIRD: Jamie Hummingbird.

17 Director of gaming commission for Cherokee

18 Nation.

19 ANGELA APAUTY: My name is Angela

20 Apauty. I'm with the Wichita Gaming Commission

21 out of Anadarko, Oklahoma.

22 RON AHTONE: Ron Ahtone. Apache Gaming

23 Commission.

24 AUSTIN KLINEKOLE: Austin Klinekole.

25 Apache Gaming Commission and commissioner.

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1 RODNEY CASTEEL: Rodney Casteel. Sac &

2 Fox Nation Gaming Commission.

3 DANNY MCCARTER: Danny McCarter. I'm

4 from United Keetoowah Band, gaming commissioner,

5 out of Tahlequah, Oklahoma.

6 CHERYL WILLIAMS: Cheryl Williams.

7 Gaming commission auditor, United Keetoowah.

8 TRACIE BURRIS: Tracie Burris. Gaming

9 commission, United Keetoowah Band.

10 JUAN RICO: Juan Rico. Under Secretary

11 of Operations, Chickasaw Nation. Department of

12 Commerce. I apologize for that. We move

13 titles.

14 MATTHEW MORGAN: Matthew Morgan. Gaming

15 commissioner, Chickasaw Nation.

16 TONYA GRAYSON: Tonya Grayson.

17 Executive director of Peoria Gaming Commission.

18 ERIN ECKHART: Erin Eckhart, deputy

19 director of Quapaw Tribal Gaming Agency.

20 KYLE NORMAN: Kyle Norman, Choctaw

21 Gaming Commission.

22 PAULA PENZ: Paula Penz. Choctaw Gaming

23 Commission.

24 SHEILA MORAGO: Sheila Morago.

25 Executive director of Oklahoma Indian Gaming

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1 Association.

2 MARGARET BELL: Margaret Bell. Wichita

3 Gaming Commission.

4 BETH PARKER: Beth Parker. Wichita

5 Gaming Commission.

6 TERRI PARTON: Terri Parton. President

7 for the Wichita and Affiliated Tribes.

8 ARTHUR ATTOCKNIE: Arthur Attocknie.

9 Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma.

10 STEVEN BIRD: Steve Bird. Gaming

11 commission, Pawnee

12 GRANTHUM STEVENS: Granthum Stevens.

13 Pawnee Nation Gaming Commission director.

14 RAY CAMPBELL: Ray Campbell. Law firm

15 of Hobbs, Straus, Dean & Walker.

16 SARAH WALTERS: Thank you all for

17 coming. My name is Sarah Walters. I'm a member

18 of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe, and I'm

19 counselor to the chairwoman.

20 ALISON GRIGONIS: Good morning. I'm

21 Alison Grigonis. I'm a member of the Pokagon

22 Band of Potawatomi Indians from Michigan, and

23 I'm a staff attorney at the NIGC.

24 CHAIRWOMAN TRACIE STEVENS: Thank you

25 everyone for the introduction. My name is

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1 Tracie Stevens. Again, I'm a member of the

2 Tulalip Tribes of Washington State, and I'm the

3 chairwoman. I also want to mention that -- and

4 you all probably are familiar with Tom

5 Cunningham who works out of our Oklahoma City

6 office. He's a regional director who is here

7 today. Tim Harper who is over here with the

8 transcriptionist, regional director of Tulsa,

9 and then Christie Jamison who was out front with

10 registration. So that's the staff we have with

11 us today.

12 As we get set up here, you should all have

13 -- if you don't, let us know. We have packets

14 so you can follow along, also if you need to

15 take notes. There we go. So I'll go ahead and

16 start and then I'm going to pass the microphone

17 over to Alison who will go through each of the

18 sections, and as we move along, please feel free

19 if anyone has any questions to let us know.

20 We'll also open up comments for now if

21 anyone has a scheduling issue, and if you have

22 come to read something into the record, please

23 let us know so that we can accommodate your

24 schedule if you need to go early. Otherwise,

25 we'll go along by topic, and today's

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1 consultation is just on the proposed -- the

2 proposed rules that are out and also on the

3 consultation draft policy.

4 So if there are other topics that you would

5 like to discuss, please pull us aside after the

6 consultation. This is intended for the

7 rule-making process and the subject we have at

8 hand. If you have individual tribal issues,

9 we're always happy to help you with those. It's

10 just -- it may not necessarily be the place here

11 to discuss that. We certainly want -- we don't

12 want your specific tribal issues having to be a

13 part of the record, but we can chat with you if

14 you have other issues beyond today's subjects

15 after the consultation.

16 So what we're going to do is we're going to

17 have Alison act like Vanna White. Oh. We might

18 have it. Okay. So now that we have our

19 technology mastered, so welcome. This is a

20 tribal consultation. Tribal consultations are

21 meetings between tribal governments and the

22 federal government. Only tribes or their

23 designees can attend and participate in these

24 meetings. These meetings are not open to the

25 public or a press, and this is along the lines

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1 of the Executive Order 13175 that was supported

2 again through President Barack Obama, and

3 President Bush and President Clinton prior to

4 President Obama.

5 The section on policy making with tribes

6 talks about whether or not standards need to be

7 developed, that we should be having discussions

8 with tribes prior to making those changes. So

9 our commitment is that every comment will be

10 reviewed and considered. The commission is

11 committed to a clear and transparent process,

12 and as I said, we will be -- we are being

13 recorded, and this will be transcribed. All

14 comments will be posted on the website, and this

15 transcript will also be posted on the website as

16 has been the practice of the commission for the

17 past two years. So with that, I'll hand it over

18 to Alison, and she'll go over the rest of the

19 agenda, and I might grab another mic.

20 ALISON GRIGONIS: Good morning again.

21 So we're going to go through 543 first. I'm

22 sure you remember that back in September we had

23 kind of revamped 543, and we had introduced

24 controls for kiosks, and so we're just kind of

25 going back through and realizing there's some

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1 gaps that we left, and we're going to try to

2 fill those gaps in and mirror the standards that

3 we introduced for both the, you know, drop and

4 count, surveillance, and make sure they mirror

5 card games and player interfaces.

6 So this comment was -- or this proposal

7 we're making was introduced on February 20th.

8 The comment period closes on April 22, 2013. So

9 the first proposed rule that we have is a

10 definition for currency cassette. It's a locked

11 compartment that contains a specified

12 denomination of currency. Currency cassettes

13 are inserted into kiosks, allowing them to

14 dispense currency.

15 We include this definition because we

16 referred to currency cassettes in 543 in the

17 drop and count section. So it's pretty basic.

18 We just want to make sure that we're covering

19 everything and filling that gap in.

20 So the next proposed rule we have is for

21 drop and count. These additional standards,

22 again, they mirror those that we already have

23 for our card games and player interfaces, and we

24 have a few kiosk-specific provisions. First,

25 the control and procedures to be established

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1 must also include the fill process. Three

2 agents have to be involved in the kiosk drop.

3 Redeemed vouchers and pulltabs, if your kiosk,

4 you know, takes pulltabs, will be collected from

5 the kiosk drop and have to be secured and

6 delivered to the appropriate department for

7 reconciliation.

8 So the next rule that we proposed for drop

9 and count is that you have to run a report prior

10 to the kiosk processing any transactions every

11 time the currency cassettes or the financial

12 instrument storage components are accessed, and

13 if you guys have any comments or questions, feel

14 free to jump in here. I feel like everyone is

15 going along with me here.

16 So every time the kiosk runs a report, the

17 kiosk has to include a number of factors: The

18 date and time, the unique asset ID of the kiosk,

19 the unique ID of each financial instrument

20 storage component in the kiosk, the total amount

21 of currency dispensed, the total number of bills

22 dispensed by denomination, the total dollar

23 amount of vouchers accepted, and the total

24 number of vouchers accepted.

25 The next rule that we have is regarding

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1 cameras. Anybody remember this rule from 543?

2 Cameras with sufficient clarity are required for

3 kiosks. So the actual rule says "The

4 surveillance system must monitor and record a

5 general overview of activities occurring at each

6 kiosk with sufficient clarity to identify the

7 activity and the individuals performing it,

8 including maintenance, drops or fills, and

9 redemption of wagering vouchers or credits." So

10 that's 543. We're going to move on to 547

11 unless anybody has any comments or questions.

12 Yes, sir?

13 WILLIS DEATHERAGE: On that kiosk

14 situation --

15 ALISON GRIGONIS: Sorry. Can you

16 identify yourself?

17 WILLIS DEATHERAGE: Yes, ma'am.

18 ALISON GRIGONIS: And towards the mic.

19 WILLIS DEATHERAGE: My name is Willis

20 Deatherage. Seminole Nation of Oklahoma. On a

21 daily basis, how many times will a kiosk be

22 activated or this --

23 ALISON GRIGONIS: You're talking about

24 the report?

25 WILLIS DEATHERAGE: One more time.

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1 ALISON GRIGONIS: Are you talking about

2 the report, each time you run a report?

3 WILLIS DEATHERAGE: Yes.

4 ALISON GRIGONIS: Any time it's

5 accessed. So that would probably be in your

6 TICS how many times you go through it.

7 WILLIS DEATHERAGE: And, again, on an

8 average, how many times a day do you think that

9 would be?

10 ALISON GRIGONIS: You know, I'm not --

11 you know, this is all unique to the gaming

12 operation.

13 WILLIS DEATHERAGE: Right.

14 ALISON GRIGONIS: So, you know, how many

15 times you guys decide to access the kiosk on a

16 daily basis. I don't know --

17 WILLIS DEATHERAGE: But a report has to

18 be run each and every time?

19 ALISON GRIGONIS: Uh-huh.

20 GRANTHUM STEVENS: Granthum Stevens.

21 Pawnee Nation gaming director. My main question

22 is as far as the report being ran, why the

23 threshold of three? Because we currently don't

24 have any kiosks set up in our operations. We're

25 proposing operations that have a kiosk, and at

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1 this time because of a new location and the

2 money going in there, we're not going to have

3 three agents on this facility. We're looking at

4 having a small establishment of starting off

5 with 40 games. So we're going to be lucky if we

6 have two because this kiosk is actually taking

7 the place of a cashier.

8 So the way that I approached it and looking

9 at it when 543 came out was actually utilizing

10 this like a cashier in a money regging situation

11 where we would run an end-of-the-shift report

12 every time it came out. So I can understand

13 that, but putting three on us is not going to

14 work.

15 I believe it should go to a tiered level

16 just as drop and count does because there's no

17 way that I'm going to have somebody drive 40

18 miles to go down there just for maybe a 10 or 20

19 minute event. Operations, that's going to be a

20 strain on them, and as far as the gaming

21 commission, it's going to hurt us as well.

22 ALISON GRIGONIS: Well --

23 GRANTHUM STEVENS: And --

24 ALISON GRIGONIS: I'm sorry. I didn't

25 mean to interrupt you.

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1 GRANTHUM STEVENS: And the purpose of

2 the reporting aspect of it, I mean, I understand

3 it, but, like I said, I believe all of these can

4 be achieved by the tribal gaming regulatories.

5 I think we should set that threshold on this

6 matter. I think this is one of the areas

7 because all our operations aren't going to be

8 the same. I come here to Cherokee Nation, and I

9 see, like, Jamie and them, they have monitored

10 their kiosk. I mean, they have establishments

11 in there. So we rely heavily on other

12 jurisdictions that already have it in place.

13 So my big example of this is that being a

14 smaller operation, some of the criterias that

15 are being set are really going to hamper us.

16 Sufficient clarity in the situation is what

17 exactly do you consider sufficient clarity? And

18 general overview is, like I said, I'm

19 approaching it the same as I do as my cashier

20 stands. As long as I have an identifying

21 picture of the person who is coming to the kiosk

22 and I can, like you said, see, then I'm good.

23 However, that always is open for

24 interpretation by the auditors that come out who

25 say this is not a sufficient clarity situation,

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1 but in the games, in our eyes for gaming

2 regulatory for the tribe, it is.

3 ALISON GRIGONIS: So as to your first

4 point, the three -- the requirement for three

5 agents, you know, this is just a proposed rule,

6 so it's open to components like yours. I think

7 we will take that to heart and consider it when

8 we are, you know, putting together the final

9 rule. I think some of the thoughts behind the

10 drafting of three was that a kiosk is very

11 sensitive. It's more sensitive than a player

12 who seems to have a lot of currency. It is

13 acting like your cage, and so that's why the

14 three was there, but obviously for smaller

15 operations -- oh. And I'll also note that for

16 543, there is a limit. It doesn't apply to

17 gaming operations under $3 million.

18 SARAH WALTERS: The other thing about

19 the standards is that there is a provision in

20 543 under which you can apply to use an

21 alternate standard in which if your operation

22 can show that it is using a different method to

23 achieve the same purpose, which is to protect

24 your kiosks, that you could use that in lieu of

25 the minimum internal controls that are in 543.

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1 So that's an option also if you find that it

2 doesn't work for your operation.

3 CHAIRWOMAN TRACIE STEVENS: And we do

4 appreciate your comments. It's good to hear, as

5 you mentioned, varying size operations have

6 different capabilities, and we're trying to

7 accommodate all of those differences, and so we

8 certainly will take your comment and consider

9 how we might be able to address the particular

10 concern for Pawnee. Good point. Thank you.

11 ALISON GRIGONIS: I think we had talked

12 about that back in the rules that were

13 promulgated in September, and sufficient clarity

14 is going to be the same definition that we used

15 back then, and I think it was 20 frames per

16 second is the -- were equivalent. Anyone else?

17 All right. Move on to 547.

18 So 547 is really straightforward. We had

19 just kind of noticed that it was a little

20 inconsistent with the rules that we just

21 published back in September. There was a tribal

22 gaming threshold set at $1 million incorrectly,

23 and we went back and looked over that, and it

24 should be set at $3 million. So that's the

25 proposed rule for 547. And, again, comments are

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1 due on that one April 8th. So coming up here

2 pretty quickly. So that's going to conclude the

3 543 and 547 portion. If anyone has any

4 lingering questions or comments, I can address

5 them now or we'll move on to the consultation

6 policy.

7 Okay. So the consultation policy -- the

8 consultation policy is -- it's a reworking of

9 the one that we introduced back in 2011, and

10 it's meant to streamline both what we introduced

11 in 2011 and also make it compatible with DOI's

12 policy that they promulgated back in 2011,

13 December 2011.

14 We recognize you guys have a lot of

15 standards from various federal agencies kind of

16 always floating around. We wanted to make

17 ourselves consistent with what the DOI put out,

18 you know, but we made a couple of changes that

19 kind of recognize the NIGC's unique role as

20 regards to tribe, and we kind of -- the DOI

21 policy was meant to be a little bit more general

22 to all DOI agencies. We wanted to tailor it

23 down to what the NIGC really does, make sure

24 that we're representing how our agency actually

25 works. So you'll see that throughout the

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1 policy.

2 So I'm just going to go over this section by

3 section. We're going to start with the

4 "Preamble" section. You know, it just

5 introduces some of the concepts and the purpose

6 of consultation, and why we think it's

7 important, and the first is where does

8 consultation come from? Where do we have that

9 responsibility as a federal agency to consult on

10 a government-to-government basis with tribes?

11 Well, that comes from, you know, the

12 U.S. constitution, federal treaties, statutes,

13 executive orders and policies, and, again, as

14 Tracie had mentioned earlier this morning, it

15 references that Executive Order 13175, and, of

16 course, it recognizes the tribal right to

17 self-governance and sovereignty. So we want to

18 just make sure that's a basis for what we're

19 considering when we put together this policy.

20 So in the next section we have our "Guiding

21 Principles," kind of what we want to achieve

22 through consultation, and also how we envision

23 the process going. So we have our objectives

24 for the process, and then our overall kind of

25 objectives for the outcome of consultation.

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1 So as far as the process goes, we hope that

2 the process is able to demonstrate meaningful

3 commitment and ensures continuity from our point

4 of view. Emphasizes our trust, respect and

5 shared responsibility between tribes and the

6 agency is open and transparent in terms of

7 communication and conducted in good faith.

8 In terms of what we hope to achieve as a

9 result of consultation, we're hoping that it's

10 going to lead to effective and efficient

11 commission operations and governance practices,

12 and we hope that it ensures that federal action

13 is achievable, it's comprehensive, it's

14 long-lasting and it reflects your tribal input.

15 So moving on to the next section, the

16 "Definitions" section, generally the definitions

17 in those are pretty standard, but I just wanted

18 to highlight, you know, what triggers

19 consultation, and you can find that in this

20 "Definitions" section. It's considered a

21 "Commission action with tribal implications" and

22 that's really any commission regulation,

23 rulemaking policy, guidance, legislative

24 proposal, or operational activity that's going

25 to have a substantial direct effect on an Indian

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1 tribe on matters including, but not limited to

2 the ability of an Indian tribe to regulate its

3 Indian gaming, an Indian tribe's formal

4 relationship with the commission, or the

5 consideration of the commission's trust

6 responsibilities with regards to Indian tribes.

7 This is similar to the draft 2011 policy that we

8 have that we had already consulted on.

9 However, when we're talking about commission

10 action with tribal implications, this isn't

11 going to include enforcement actions, when we're

12 involved in active litigation or have settlement

13 negotiations going on when there's some really

14 sensitive, really private things or a court has

15 ordered us that we can't talk about certain

16 aspects. So it's important to note that

17 limitation.

18 In terms of the "Accounting and Reporting"

19 section, this, again, will kind of codify what

20 we talked about while Tracie was giving her

21 introduction, what we've been doing all long

22 with consultation. And you guys are probably

23 really familiar with our process now and how we,

24 you know, have a transcriber taking down every

25 word that we're saying. We post that up to the

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1 website. Everybody that submits comments, that

2 goes onto the website, and when we finally do a

3 final rule, we put that up on the website as

4 well, and so we try to create a lot of

5 transparency throughout our process.

6 We think it's been working well over the

7 last couple of years. We just hope to put that

8 down in writing and codify what we've already

9 been doing and seen it working well.

10 So moving on into the "Training" section.

11 This is really training for NIGC employees.

12 This is a responsibility we're taking on

13 ourselves. So the commission has plans to

14 develop its own training for NIGC employees, and

15 the training is going to hopefully promote

16 consultation, communication, collaboration and

17 other interactions with tribes. It's going to

18 outline and reinforce the commission's duties

19 concerning tribal gaming, and it's going to

20 describe the legal trust obligation of the

21 federal-tribal relationship, and highlight and

22 provide the knowledge, skills and tools

23 necessary for a collaborative engagement between

24 tribal representatives and commission staff

25 engaged in the consultative process with the

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1 attention to the unique distinctions within

2 Indian Country.

3 You know, I think the commission does a

4 really great job of hiring people that have

5 knowledge of tribes already, but sometimes we

6 pool people have great skills in other areas,

7 but not necessarily knowledge of tribes always,

8 and so we want to make sure that we're, you

9 know, helping them to develop a knowledge of

10 tribal people and, you know, Indian gaming and

11 the federal responsibilities in regards to

12 Indian gaming. So that's what's going to help

13 this portion is speaking to that.

14 And the next section is "Innovative and

15 Effective Consultation Practices," and it really

16 talks about how does the commission envision

17 capturing tribal input. Like what are the

18 different ways we're going to reach out to you?

19 So we plan to host regular meetings between the

20 commission and Indian tribes. I mean, you've

21 probably seen over the last couple of years,

22 you've been really good about asking for your

23 input and getting it together in various

24 settings.

25 So we hope to communicate through regular

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1 gatherings of Indian tribes and discuss

2 improving consultation practices and procedures,

3 and we hope to solicit recommendations from

4 Indian tribes for the initial development of

5 performance measures, and thereafter for the

6 evaluation of consultation practices themselves.

7 And in the "Consultation Guidelines"

8 section, I just wanted to touch on what does the

9 actual process look like? What are the various

10 stages of consultation as we see them? You

11 know, when we're considering commission action

12 with tribal implications, how does it all

13 unfold?

14 Well, there's the initial planning stage,

15 and that's where we give notice to you guys that

16 we want to meet on a certain topic, and we hope

17 to give you enough notice to plan your

18 schedules, and then when we move into the

19 proposal development stage, we're going to give

20 consideration to some of those national

21 conferences that are already taking place, NCAI,

22 NIGA. I think we try to time a lot of our

23 consultations in with those national meetings

24 to, you know, just be sensitive to tribal

25 resources, limited tribal resources to travel.

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1 We want to make sure we're there where you guys

2 are already, where you guys have overlapping

3 responsibilities.

4 So that just kind of talks about, you know,

5 the relative processes for capturing tribal

6 input. We have negotiated rulemaking, series of

7 open tribal meetings, tribal advisory

8 committees, single meetings. So it talks about

9 some of the ways, even when we were doing 543,

10 how we'll capture tribal input.

11 And then the final stage is the

12 implementation process. Once we've decided on a

13 specific course, you know, how are we going to

14 implement that working with our regional

15 directors and stuff, and that is where the

16 commission is going to consider, you know, if

17 you guys need training. If you need training on

18 our regulations, how to help interpret them, you

19 know you can always reach out to us and we're

20 going to consider that.

21 And finally, you know, this is just speaking

22 to limitations that I mentioned earlier under

23 the definition of, you know, commission action

24 with tribal implications. There's just a couple

25 of limitations, and I just really -- because the

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1 NIGC has a role as a regulator first and

2 foremost, and so we need you to kind of

3 recognize that it isn't always going to include,

4 you know, enforcement actions, matters under

5 litigation, administrative appeals in front of

6 the commission. So I just want to highlight

7 that.

8 So that's really all that I have on the

9 consultation policy. If you guys have any

10 questions or comments, I'm happy to hear what

11 you have to say. Yes, sir?

12 STEVEN BIRD: Steven Bird, Pawnee. We

13 have an organization of TGRA Oklahoma we started

14 so we can network amongst the tribes. It sure

15 would be nice if maybe once every half year or

16 something if NIGC would come. I don't want you

17 to think that if you came, you'd just be a chew

18 toy, but, you know, maybe you'd hear things that

19 we need to talk about or whatever or about

20 getting information to us, but I know I can't

21 speak for the whole group, but it would sure be

22 nice if you could come.

23 CHAIRWOMAN TRACIE STEVENS: That's a

24 great suggestion, and, you know, I was just

25 talking to Jamie before the meeting started

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1 about how NIGC is coordinating with NTGCR - and

2 it's taken me three years to manage that

3 acronym. I finally got it right - which is

4 taking place next week in Palm Springs, and we

5 do want to partner with the tribal organizations

6 that exist already, again, as a way to maximize

7 your resources and bring NIGC to the tribes. So

8 we certainly will consider that, and we know

9 Sheila. So we certainly can reach out to Sheila

10 as we would with any of the organizations for an

11 opportunity just -- not just to collaborate and

12 provide training, but to make ourselves

13 available to answer any questions you might

14 have.

15 ROBIN LASH: Robin Lash, Miami Tribe.

16 And I know, Steven, our agenda has not come out

17 yet for the spring conference on TGRA, but we

18 have invited the NIGC to come, and they have

19 accepted and they're sending Rest West, and I

20 know that Nimish was going to come, and he's no

21 longer -- he won't be with you, and I don't know

22 who else might come, but our request was

23 specifically for NIGC to come and discuss the

24 new regulations, 543 and 547, and try to get the

25 tribes some details on the specific changes that

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1 we need to address, so we appreciate that.

2 CHAIRWOMAN TRACIE STEVENS: Oh, yeah.

3 STEVEN BIRD: Well, ignore my previous

4 comment.

5 CHAIRWOMAN TRACIE STEVENS: No, no.

6 That's all right.

7 STEVEN BIRD: Sorry, Robin.

8 CHAIRWOMAN TRACIE STEVENS: That

9 encourages us to reach out to the other

10 organizations as well, so I'm happy to hear that

11 we are planning a visit with OTGCR -- or OTG --

12 now I'm getting them mixed up. Oklahoma Indian

13 gaming regulators here in Oklahoma. So we will

14 have someone else coming out instead of Nimish.

15 Nimish did move on to another career and

16 advancement opportunity, which I wish him well.

17 He served us very well and did a lot of training

18 for the tribes, but we do have other staff

19 members that we can send, and if you want anyone

20 else to come out, if you want a commissioner to

21 come out, please just let us know. If there are

22 other issues, we're always happy to come out.

23 Yes, sir?

24 WILLIS DEATHERAGE: Again, my name is

25 Willis Deatherage. Seminole Nation of Oklahoma.

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1 I just wanted to make certain that the Pawnee

2 Nation didn't feel like they were the only ones

3 that had a concern about the number of agents

4 that are required on the kiosk drop. Seminole

5 Nation has that very same concern, you know. It

6 needs to be maybe tier based as opposed to just

7 having a standard three-agent type situation.

8 CHAIRWOMAN TRACIE STEVENS: Okay.

9 That's good to know. Thank you for supporting

10 that comment. So as you said it's demonstrated

11 to us that there's more than one tribe with that

12 concern.

13 WILLIS DEATHERAGE: Right.

14 SARAH WALTERS: If you keep thinking

15 about this after you go home and you want to put

16 in comments, you can always do that up until our

17 closing date for comments on the proposed rule,

18 which is April 22nd, to our reg review e-mail

19 address. It's right up there. You can send

20 them by mail, also fax. They come right to my

21 e-mail address, so I read every single one of

22 them, and our attorneys read every single one of

23 them, and we're sure to read every single

24 comment that we receive. Matt, did you have a

25 comment?

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1 MATTHEW MORGAN: Yes. Matthew Morgan.

2 I'm the gaming commissioner of the Chickasaw

3 Nation. On your first slide on page 3 of your

4 handout, you make a statement that says "Upon

5 review, additional standards are needed for

6 kiosks." How did you arrive at that? Was there

7 an incident or what precipitated this change is

8 needed?

9 ALISON GRIGONIS: I think we just looked

10 at -- you know, we had some standards set for

11 card games and for player interfaces, and we

12 realized we just didn't carry them forward to

13 kiosks.

14 MATTHEW MORGAN: So there hasn't been

15 any problems we've seen? No investigations?

16 Nothing prompted it? Just spitballing around a

17 conference table?

18 SARAH WALTERS: We wanted to be

19 consistent. Part of our job as regulators is to

20 identify areas of risk, and kiosks carry a lot

21 of cash and are an area of risk on a gaming

22 floor. So our auditors were concerned about it,

23 and we wanted to be consistent throughout our

24 regulation with surveillance of areas of risk

25 that include large amounts of cash. So to be

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1 consistent with our cage, vault, we included

2 kiosks in that same sort of category for

3 surveillance.

4 CHAIRWOMAN TRACIE STEVENS: Did you

5 have, Matt, any particular concerns or comments

6 or suggestions about that particular section you

7 mentioned? Just a question you had?

8 MATTHEW MORGAN: Well, I was wondering,

9 you know, as a regulator myself, you know, any

10 time a subject matter comes up, you know, you do

11 like you do here and take it to consultation.

12 Usually an event happens that precipitates you

13 arriving at some new rule to be placed on

14 somebody, and I was trying to figure out what

15 that event was that happened to kind of cause a

16 new rule to be under consideration. Generally

17 older rules, just my usual statement, they seem

18 really restrictive, you know. Probably could be

19 a whole lot broader and allow the TGRAs to

20 implement some of the very specific rules.

21 SARAH WALTERS: So you are echoing

22 Mr. Stevens' comment that do more providing for

23 TGRA TICS as opposed to including the rules in

24 the mix?

25 MATTHEW MORGAN: Yes, ma'am.

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1 JAMIE HUMMINGBIRD: I would kind of echo

2 what Matt and Granthum just said as simply when

3 we were looking at the provisions for the kiosk,

4 we were wondering why we had to have three

5 people there where we have two on other types of

6 similar activities, and with it not being based

7 on a tiered structure, are we putting a little

8 bit more resources into that activity than are

9 absolutely necessary? I think if we were able

10 to look at that particular sequence of events

11 for our individual circumstances, it would be

12 much better for us to be able to apply a

13 standard that's more appropriate for a facility

14 like this versus a smaller facility where the

15 resources aren't going to be as great or as

16 available.

17 NANCY MCALISTER-GREEN: Good morning. I

18 would echo Mr. Morgan's sentiments about --

19 SARAH WALTERS: Could you identify

20 yourself for the transcriptionist?

21 NANCY MCALISTER-GREEN: Nancy Green.

22 Green Law Firm. I would be curious to know if

23 in formulating these rules that you identified

24 specific rules. We know that kiosks obviously

25 carry a lot of cash, but, you know, it might be

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1 helpful to have a more specific goal in mind

2 that you are protecting against with the

3 regulation, and I'm also interested to know if

4 there are any specific events where you know

5 that there's some method that somebody has used

6 to maybe enter a kiosk when it's unattended. Is

7 there something out there going on that we are

8 not aware of?

9 SARAH WALTERS: Those are really good

10 questions. I can't identify any specific

11 issues. Our auditors have said that they know

12 of incidents where the wrong cassette was put

13 into the kiosk and the denomination of currency

14 instead of spitting out 20's was spitting out

15 100 dollar bills, and without controls, it's

16 hard to know where that money was lost or to

17 prevent that from happening. So there aren't

18 any specific incidents that I can point to, but

19 we've heard stories like that, and we're trying

20 -- just trying to prevent harm in areas of risk.

21 Jamie, did you have something?

22 JAMIE HUMMINGBIRD: Yeah. Jamie

23 Hummingbird with Cherokee Nation. Whenever we

24 started introducing these boxes, if you will,

25 into our gaming facilities, much like we

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1 introduced ATMs, we put controls into place

2 ourself that prescribed a number of people that

3 were needed to fill the canisters, how it was

4 supposed to be certified and by whom, how fills

5 and drops were supposed to be done in case there

6 was a problem with the machine. So all these

7 various aspects around the protection of those

8 funds, we took it upon ourselves as we

9 identified that need and we tailored it.

10 So if there was a new process or something

11 new that came into our facilities, and there

12 wasn't an NIGC standard or there wasn't

13 something in our compact that spoke to it, we

14 came up with what we felt and we determined to

15 be the best solution to that issue. So I'm not

16 sure if we're putting the cart before the horse

17 a little bit on this. Since that, you know, now

18 we already have regulations that we've

19 identified and adopted through our respective

20 commissions, we might have to go back now and

21 revise all those regulations based on what new

22 proposed rules are out there.

23 SARAH WALTERS: That's a good question

24 -- I mean, that's a good point. Excuse me.

25 And we'd be interested to know what commissions

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1 have already done if they are similar or the

2 same as the -- as this rule -- this proposed

3 rule or if they're different and what works. We

4 also would like to know and acknowledge when

5 these are not truly minimums as it seems like

6 you're suggesting because these are meant to be

7 minimum internal control standards above and

8 beyond which your Tribal Gaming Regulatory

9 Authorities may choose to implement TICS at a

10 higher standard or an equivalent standard. So

11 we are interested to hear comments like that,

12 and to know like what Granthum, Matt and Jamie,

13 and Mr. Willis of the Seminole Nation have all

14 stated, when they don't feel like something is

15 minimum, that's something that we will

16 definitely take into consideration and consider.

17 Yes?

18 TRACIE BURRIS: Tracie Burris, UKB. The

19 question I have is that I know the majority of

20 those kiosks are operating inhouse now, but what

21 about those that are contracted out that we have

22 no control over that services come in, still

23 fill those machines out? Other than your

24 scheduled -- usually you provide some evidence

25 to them. So how does that affect those that are

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1 contracted?

2 SARAH WALTERS: That's a very good

3 question. I don't have a good answer for it

4 right now, but we definitely will think about it

5 and get an answer to you.

6 CHAIRWOMAN TRACIE STEVENS: Do we have

7 any other comments? These have all been really

8 helpful comments, and this will certainly help

9 inform, you know, the next steps in our

10 rulemaking process, and I'm glad that we're also

11 talking about our consultation policy, our draft

12 consultation policy as well. This is a great

13 demonstration of, as Matt had said, you know,

14 people sitting around a table writing something

15 out at a desk in D.C. or somewhere else and then

16 hearing how this will affect tribes in a

17 practical day-to-day fashion. So, you know,

18 we've heard all of your comments with regard to

19 the two notices of proposed rule. I do want to

20 say that with regard to the consultation policy,

21 please do review it and send in comments for

22 that as well.

23 We were participating in the previously --

24 the Department of Interior actually, when I

25 worked over there several years ago, had

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1 initiated their advisory committee to develop

2 the department's consultation policy in 2009 and

3 2010, and we joined in that process, and their

4 -- in their tribal advisory committee, they had

5 changed the direction that they were going with

6 regard to the department's policy and made major

7 changes to it, and that's why we put this on the

8 back burner until we could see where they were

9 going with it.

10 Now, the NIGC is an independent regulatory

11 authority under the department. We are not part

12 of their manual. We are not subject to their

13 secretarial orders. So when they issued their

14 consultation policy, that does not necessarily

15 apply to us. They push that policy down to all

16 other bureaus, but because of our unique

17 situation, you know, we don't -- we did not

18 adopt it whole cloth. Because, you know, we

19 have particular regulatory oversight and

20 enforcement responsibilities, it just wasn't

21 going to fit, and then there's some reporting

22 requirements through to the secretary that are

23 not applicable to us, but it did -- their policy

24 did streamline quite a bit, and made it much

25 simpler, easier to read, easier to follow, and

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1 that's what we eventually did with our policy,

2 but tailored it to what we specifically have

3 been doing in action for these past two years,

4 two and a half years.

5 So it is a little bit different than the DOI

6 policy, but we think it works for what we do and

7 how we have certain responsibilities to tribes.

8 As you all know, there are, you know, three

9 layers of regulation going on here so we have to

10 collaborate.

11 So if there are no more comments on either

12 of the parts or on the consultation policy, I do

13 want to let everybody go early if everybody has

14 other things they need to do today. Please do

15 write in, e-mail. If you have any questions at

16 all, Sarah can field your calls, your e-mails.

17 Anything that you might need, we are available.

18 I want to thank you for taking time with us

19 today. We will have another consultation on

20 this same material for anyone who is going to be

21 at the National Indian Gaming Association

22 Conference and Trade Show in Phoenix. That will

23 take place on Wednesday, March 27th. That's in

24 the next two weeks, two weeks from now, right

25 after the conference. So, again, thank you all

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1 and hands up to you for participating in this

2 very important process that affects your tribes.

3 Thank you and safe travels and then, Jamie, I'll

4 let you close.

5 JAMIE HUMMINGBIRD: I also want to thank

6 everybody for coming here today for

7 participating. I encourage you to, if you have

8 comments that you did not voice today, if you

9 think of something after you leave, I would like

10 to say please put them down because the more

11 comments they hear, the better regulation I

12 think we can expect out of the office. So

13 please take time to submit your comments if you

14 haven't already.

15 Since it's about ten after 10:00, you may

16 still be able to catch breakfast or if you want

17 to stick around for lunch, maybe play some

18 machines while you're waiting. I do wish

19 everybody safe travels back home. I hope to see

20 a number of you, if not all of you, at the

21 National Tribal Gaming Commissioner's meeting,

22 which is going to be in Palm Springs as the

23 chairwoman said. We're starting next Tuesday,

24 Wednesday and Thursday. So if you have not made

25 plans to go, there's still time. If you start

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1 in your car today, you might get there by Monday

2 or Tuesday. We wish you guys safe travels. See

3 you next time. Thank you.

4 (Concluded at 10:08 a.m.)

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1 CERTIFICATE

2

3 I, D. LUKE EPPS, Certified Shorthand

4 Reporter, state that the above and foregoing

5 transcript was transcribed by me to the best of my

6 ability; and that I am not an attorney for nor

7 relative of any of said parties or otherwise

8 interested in the event of said action.

9

10 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my

11 hand and seal this 21st day of March, 2013.

12

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21 __________________________________

22 D. Luke Epps, CSR, RPR

23 CSR No. 1841

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&

& 8:1 9:15

1

1 20:22

10 17:18

100 36:15

10:00 42:15

10:08 43:4

13175 12:1 22:15

15 1:9

1841 44:23

1988 4:4

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20 17:18 20:15

20's 36:14

2009 40:2

2010 40:3

2011 21:9,11,12,13

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2013 1:9 13:8 44:11

20th 13:7

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22nd 32:18

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ability 24:2 44:6

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acknowledge 38:4

acronym 30:3

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action 23:12,21

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actions 24:11 29:4

activated 15:22

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activity 15:7 23:24

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actual 15:3 27:9

additional 13:21

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address 20:9 21:4

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administrative 29:5

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advancement 31:16

advisory 28:7 40:1,4

affect 5:12 38:25

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agencies 21:15,22

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agenda 12:19 30:16

agent 32:7

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ago 3:19,21 5:5

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alison 9:20,21 10:17

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alternate 19:21

amount 14:20,23

amounts 33:25

anadarko 7:21

angela 7:19,19

answer 30:13 39:3,5

anybody 4:7 15:1,11

apache 7:22,25

apauty 7:19,20

apologize 8:12

appeals 29:5

applicable 40:23

apply 19:16,20

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appreciate 2:22,25

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appreciated 3:12

approached 17:8

approaching 18:19

appropriate 14:6

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area 33:21

areas 18:6 26:6

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arrive 33:6

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arthur 9:8,8

aside 11:5

asking 26:22

aspect 18:2

aspects 24:16 37:7

asset 14:18

assistance 6:7

association 9:1

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atms 37:1

attend 11:23

attention 26:1

attocknie 9:8,8

attorney 9:23 44:6

attorneys 32:22

audience 7:3

auditor 8:7

auditors 18:24

33:22 36:11

aunts 3:22

austin 7:24,24

authorities 38:9

authority 40:11

available 30:13

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average 16:8

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