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9 BEFORE THE NATIONAL INDIAN GAMING COMMISSION

10 TRIBAL CONSULTATION

11 July 20, 2011

12 Route 66 Casino Hotel

13 14500 Central Avenue, SW

14 Albuquerque, New Mexico

15

16

17 Members of the Commission:

18 Ms. Steffani A. Cochran, Vice Chair

 Ms. Lael Echo-Hawk, Counsel to the Chairwoman

19 Ms. Jennifer Ward, Office of the General Counsel

 Mr. Lance Vallo, Field Investigator

20

21 Reported by: Karen Lee Clark, RPR, New Mexico CCR 227

22

23

24 Job No. NJ340546

25 (1469K) KLC

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1 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Good morning. That woke

2 me up.

3 Thank you for your patience this morning. We

4 had a couple things we needed to take care of, and a

5 couple people we were hoping would show up. So I

6 appreciate your patience this morning.

7 We're going to go ahead and get started. And

8 I, first and foremost, want to begin with our

9 introductions.

10 I'm looking for the agenda. I thought I had

11 one handy.

12 Thank you.

13 We have Governor Luarkie here with us, and

14 he's agreed to open up our meeting this morning.

15 I'm going to start with you, Governor, and

16 thank you for having us here. I look forward to a very

17 productive meeting. And I'm going to turn it over to

18 you for a few comments and opening.

19 GOVERNOR LUARKIE: Good morning, everyone.

20 THE AUDIENCE: Good morning.

21 GOVERNOR LUARKIE: It's good to see all of you

22 here. Thank you, and welcome to the Route 66 Casino.

23 We appreciate you taking the time to come out this

24 morning and -- and today and tomorrow, and spending some

25 time with the group, here, going through this process.

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1 And so we are very appreciative to all of you.

2 Before we get any further, just some

3 housekeeping. If you haven't already found them, the

4 bathrooms are right across the hall, here, as long as

5 you go out the door to your right. And there's -- when

6 we break today for lunch, there's restaurants and -- and

7 whatnot down the -- down the side here.

8 So with that, again, we're very appreciative.

9 With me here today is our Special Lieutenant

10 Governor, Charles Poncho, our councilman, Virgil Siow.

11 And there also are the Pueblo Laguna delegates to -- to

12 all gaming initiatives for us, and -- and NIGA, and

13 whatnot, so they -- they represent us.

14 Also, in the room we have Andrew DeLoris, a

15 tribal council member present with us today. And any of

16 the other pueblos? We've got Mr. George Pradt, who is,

17 also, one of our board members for Laguna. I saw Bob

18 Johnson here somewhere. He must have left. Oh. He's

19 on the phone outside.

20 So if I missed anybody from the Pueblo, I

21 apologize. If you're here, please stand up.

22 So again, thank you, everyone for -- for being

23 here.

24 But before we go any further, let's offer a

25 few words of prayer and guidance this morning.

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1 (A silent prayer was given.)

2 GOVERNOR LUARKIE: Again, I wish all of you a

3 great meeting today. And, again, thank you for having

4 it here at the Route 66. We do appreciate it.

5 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you, Governor.

6 Governor, I was reading that you're very

7 heavily involved in the economic initiatives of the

8 Pueblo, and that is a firm commitment you've made. And

9 so I -- I look forward to watching the Pueblo grow and

10 seeing it prosper. Thank you for having us.

11 I know many of you in the room, but there are

12 many other faces that are new to me, so I'm going to

13 introduce myself. But, first and foremost, I do want to

14 introduce the other tribal leaders at the table, or ask

15 them to introduce themselves, please.

16 And any tribal leadership elders or others

17 that are remaining in the other chairs, if you would

18 introduce yourself, as well. Then I will introduce

19 myself and the staff that are here.

20 MR. HINTON: Good morning, ladies and

21 gentlemen. My name is Timothy Hinton. And I am the

22 vice chairman of the White Mountain Apache Tribe. Good

23 morning.

24 MR. KESSAY: Good morning, ladies and

25 gentlemen. My name is Clinton Kessay, Jr. I'm the

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1 Tribal Council for the White Mountain Apache Tribe.

2 MR. BEACH: Good morning, everybody. My name

3 is Arnold Beach. I'm the Tribal Council for the White

4 Mountain Apache Tribe.

5 MR. SIOW: Good morning. Virgil Siow, Pueblo

6 of Laguna Tribal Council.

7 MR. PONCHO: Once again, good morning,

8 everybody. I am Charles Poncho. I'm the Second

9 Lieutenant Governor, Pueblo of Laguna.

10 MR. TORINO: Good morning, everybody. My name

11 is Kino Torino. I'm representing District Three, Tribal

12 Counsel, White Mountain Apache tribe.

13 MR. APODACA: Good morning everybody. My name

14 is Albert Apodaca. I'm the Executive Director of the

15 Mescalero Apache Tribal Gaming Commission.

16 MR. TORIVIO: Good morning, everybody. I'm

17 Mike Torivio from the Pueblo of Acoma. I'm one of the

18 gaming commissioners.

19 MR. SHANNAHAN LARGO: Good morning, everybody.

20 I'm Shannahan Largo. I'm the gaming commissioner,

21 Jicarilla Apache.

22 MR. PHILLIP LARGO: Good morning. My name is

23 Phillip Largo. I'm the Chair for the Jicarillo Gaming

24 Commissioners.

25 MR. GREEN: Good morning. I'm not a tribal

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1 leader. I'm an attorney. I come from Oklahoma. I

2 represent a number of tribes there, and they send me to

3 watch the NIGC regularly to make sure they don't do

4 anything that hurts or offends them.

5 MS. CHINO: Good morning. Carlene Chino,

6 Navajo Nation. I'm the executive director for the

7 Regulatory Commission.

8 MS. BEGAYE: Good morning. My name is Karis

9 Begaye. I'm an attorney for the Navajo Nation.

10 MR. DING: Good morning. Mickey Ding, Navajo

11 Nation, Department of Justice.

12 MS. PADILLA: Good morning. I'm Angela

13 Padilla for the Pueblo of Pojoaque.

14 MR. ZUCKER: Good morning. Stewart Zucker,

15 Executive Director of the Pueblo Pojoaque Gaming

16 Commission.

17 MR. GALLEGOS: Good morning. Manny Gallegos,

18 the duly appointed Chair of the Tesuque Gaming

19 Commission.

20 MR. QUIGLEY: Good morning. I'm Daniel

21 Quigley, General Counsel for the Tohono O'odham Gaming

22 Enterprise.

23 MR. TENORIO: Good morning. Joe Tenorio with

24 the Chestnut Law Offices.

25 GOVERNOR GARCIA: Good morning. David Garcia,

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1 First Lieutenant Governor, Pueblo of Acoma.

2 MR. DeLORIS: Good morning. I am Andrew

3 DeLoris. I'm the internal auditor of the Pueblo of

4 Laguna Gaming Regulatory Authority.

5 GOVERNOR CHEWIWI: Good morning. My name is

6 Antonio Chewiwi, Second Lieutenant Governor, Pueblo of

7 Isleta.

8 MR. GOMEZ: Good morning. Eddie Gomez. I'm

9 the Executive Director of the Gaming and Regulatory

10 Agency at the Pueblo of Isleta.

11 MS. GARCIA: Good morning. My name is Coleen

12 Garcia. I'm from the Santa Ana Gaming Commission.

13 MR. ROYBAL: Good morning. Ed Roybal,

14 attorney for the Ak-Chin Indian Community.

15 MS. WANYA: Good morning. I'm Cheryl Wanya,

16 Compliance Officer, Navajo Nation Gaming Enterprise.

17 MR. LOCKETT: Good morning. My name is Eddie

18 Lockett, Director, Casino Operations, Hon-Dah Casino,

19 Special Advisor on Gaming Affairs, White Mountain Apache

20 Tribe.

21 MS. TRUJILLO: Good morning. My name is

22 Yvonne Trujillo. I'm the Executive Director for the

23 Taos Gaming Commission.

24 MS. MARTINEZ: Good morning. Maria Martinez,

25 Pueblo of Taos Gaming Commission.

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1 MS. MARTINEZ: Good morning. Gaylene

2 Martinez, Pueblo of Taos, Gaming Commissioner.

3 MS. SANCHEZ: Good morning. Barbara Sanchez,

4 Pueblo of Isleta, Tribal Council Secretary.

5 MR. PRADT: Good morning, again. George

6 Pradt. I'm from the Pueblo of Laguna Gaming Commission.

7 MR. ALBEITA: Fernando Albeita, Tribal

8 Council, Pueblo of Isleta.

9 MS. PADILLA: Good morning. Josephine

10 Padilla, Pueblo of Isleta Council.

11 MR. YELLOW EAGLE: Good morning. My name is

12 Glen Yellow Eagle. I'm here for the Rosebud Sioux

13 Tribe.

14 MR. BACA: Good morning. Elijah Baca,

15 Executive Director for the Santa Clara Pueblo Gaming

16 Commission.

17 MR. WILLIAMS: Good morning. Chris Williams,

18 Internal Auditor for the Santa Clara Hotel and Casino.

19 MS. ORTIZ: Good morning. Maylenie Ortiz,

20 from San Felipe Gaming Commission, Licensing Specialist.

21 MS. VELASQUEZ: Good morning. I'm Maxine

22 Velasquez, In-House General Counsel for the Pueblo of

23 Tesuque and the Chair of the Community Control Board.

24 MR. LEWIS: Good morning. My name is Russell

25 Lewis, and I'm with the Navajo Nation Gaming, and gaming

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1 agent.

2 MR. WHITEMAN: Good morning. My name is

3 Darwin Whiteman, and I'm a compliance investigator, Ute

4 Mountain, Ute tribe.

5 MR. LESLIE: Good morning. Roger Leslie,

6 Gaming Commissioner, Sandia.

7 MR. PIERCE: Good morning. Jim Pierce,

8 Executive Director for Sandia Pueblo Gaming Commission.

9 MS. CHAVARRIS: Good morning. Loretta

10 Chavarris, Santa Clara Pueblo Gaming Chair.

11 MR. NARANJO: Roger Naranjo, Santa Clara

12 Gaming Commission.

13 MS. TAYLOR: Good morning. Andrea Taylor,

14 Southern Ute Indian Tribe, Gaming Commission.

15 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Okay. Good morning.

16 I feel so small sitting up here so far away.

17 There's a lot of familiar faces out there, and

18 it's always a pleasure to see faces I haven't seen in a

19 while, like the Councilman from the Pueblo of Isleta. I

20 appreciate your time, and I appreciate you coming out.

21 For those of you who don't know me, my name is

22 Steffani Cochran. I'm a member of the Chickasaw Nation.

23 I was born and raised in Oklahoma, but home for me, now,

24 is Santa Fe, New Mexico. I started out as a lawyer by

25 trade. Jess follows me around.

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1 But I started out -- my middle career was with

2 the Pueblo of Isleta as an associate judge, and then

3 took the position in the State of Oregon as an

4 administrative law judge, and then found myself back in

5 New Mexico several years ago, as Special Counsel for

6 Indian Affairs. And my last position prior to taking on

7 the NIGC work was as counsel, general counsel, for the

8 Pueblo of Pojoaque. So it's a pleasure to see the

9 Pueblo here, as well.

10 This is home for me, and it's -- it's always a

11 pleasure to come home. And it's always a pleasure to

12 get an opportunity to -- to spend some time with people

13 whose issues and progress is very familiar to me. So I

14 look forward to our dialogue.

15 I have several staff here with me. And I'm

16 going to let them introduce themselves, those that are

17 sitting at the table. In addition, we have staff from

18 our Phoenix region, so I'm going to have you introduce

19 yourself, as well.

20 MR. VALLO: Good morning, everybody. Lance

21 Vallo, a field investigator from the Phoenix office.

22 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: And Sally is outside, I

23 believe. Sally, as well, is here.

24 MS. WARD: Good morning. I'm Jennifer Ward,

25 and I am an attorney with the Office of General Counsel

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1 out of DC. Generally, I work in the Great Plains

2 region, so it's really nice to be out here and see a lot

3 of new faces.

4 MS. ECHO-HAWK: So the fancy -- the fancy one

5 isn't working.

6 Good morning. My name is Lael Echo-Hawk, and

7 I'm a member of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma. I'm an

8 attorney. I'm currently counsel to Tracie Stevens, but

9 my primary responsibility is dealing with this

10 regulatory review.

11 I very much appreciate the welcome that we

12 have here. And I love being in the Southwest, and look

13 forward to your comments.

14 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: As most of you know, the

15 Commission agreed and has set a very aggressive

16 consultation schedule to review our existing regulations

17 to make sure that they are relevant, make sure that

18 they're not duplicative, make sure that they're not

19 overly burdensome. And we set a consultation agenda of

20 33 consultations.

21 And in that process, I believe we're on number

22 eleven, if my memory serves me correctly. I spent this

23 week earlier, and I spent last week, up in Tulalip, and

24 then we had a public meeting in Oklahoma. And, now,

25 we're here.

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1 The -- the Commission is very excited about

2 this process. And we believe that it is going to

3 produce the best that we can offer in the form of

4 regulatory review. The other commissioners were hoping

5 to join me today, as this is one of the very first

6 sessions that we've opened up to all of our groups for

7 discussion.

8 But as is the case, the work of the Commission

9 does necessitate that sometimes we break up. And so on

10 behalf of the Chairwoman and on behalf of Mr. Little,

11 they do wish us a very productive session.

12 The agenda is quite extensive. And we've

13 broken it up into two days. And we've also broken it up

14 into various groups so that we can, hopefully, take each

15 topic individually, give it the attention that it

16 deserves, and then move on to the next one.

17 That being said, we are firmly aware of the

18 commitment of tribal leadership, and if there are tribal

19 leaders that cannot stay or cannot be here tomorrow, or

20 for whatever reasons want to offer some statements into

21 the record in advance, that's certainly acceptable since

22 we're cognizant that you have very demanding schedules.

23 So before we begin, is there anyone that wants

24 to open up with a statement, or can't stay and -- and

25 wishes to offer a statement before we get into the

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1 agenda?

2 Okay. As I said, at some point in time, if

3 you do need to leave, and there's things to say, please

4 let us know, and we will make sure that we write it into

5 the program.

6 Lael has been tasked with this process. And

7 it is a daunting process. There is a lot of information

8 going on.

9 (Interruption in the proceedings.)

10 I think they found the right button.

11 There's a lot of information being generated

12 right now, a lot of discussions happening all throughout

13 the country, all throughout Indian country. And she has

14 this daunting task of keeping track of it all, having it

15 make sense, and, of course, keeping the commissioners

16 where we need to be at, at what time, and making

17 decisions when we need to make them.

18 So I'm going to turn this over to Lael, and

19 she's going to give us an overview of -- of the agenda,

20 do introductions to the topics so that you have a

21 working knowledge of where we're at. And then we'll

22 begin our discussions.

23 (Interruption in the proceedings.)

24 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Okay. Okay. Sorry. We're

25 trying not to kill your ears this morning. It's too

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1 early for that. We'll slowly bore you to death, but --

2 okay.

3 So good morning, again. We are here today at

4 this part of the consultation policy -- the consultation

5 process that the Commission has undertaken. And I think

6 as we've gone forward with the regulation review, as

7 most of you will recall, beginning in November of last

8 year, the Commission began asking questions through a

9 Notice of Inquiry, and then later published a notice of

10 regulatory review schedule, which this is one of 33

11 consultations identified in that schedule.

12 The Commission first asked the question, "What

13 issues do we need to look at? What regulations?" And

14 then, second, "How do we do that?"

15 We're currently in the drafting phase of these

16 consultations, and -- and talking about the various

17 topics as they've arisen. One sort of housekeeping

18 thing, but very important to note, is that the tribal

19 consultation meetings are between tribal governments and

20 the -- tribal governments and the federal government.

21 Only tribes and their designees can attend and

22 participate in these meetings, and that they're not open

23 to the public. This is important for us to note. This

24 is government-to-government consultation, and it's

25 something that the Commission wanted to emphasize.

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1 This consultation is part of the mandate given

2 to federal agencies under the Executive Order 13,175.

3 Particularly, this process is part of the section that

4 you can see underlined up there, where it says that

5 prior to developing -- prior to determining whether to

6 establish federal standards, the federal government, the

7 NIGC in this instance, consults with tribes first. So

8 before we begin drafting, before we begin rulemaking, we

9 talk to you and ask whether or not these standards are

10 appropriate.

11 The Commission has divided, basically, 21

12 different topics into five regulations -- five -- five

13 groups that we're reviewing. These groups were formed

14 by a number of factors, including a lot of time and

15 resources estimated that they might take to look at,

16 what the subject matter was, and the comments that we

17 received from the Notice of Inquiry.

18 The group numbers do not indicate priority,

19 something that we've been asked before. Just to

20 clarify, that group one doesn't indicate it's a higher

21 priority than any of the other groups.

22 We've divided the drafting phase as the

23 drafting, the actual ruling, and the review of the rules

24 into three different phases: The preliminary drafting

25 phase, which we are currently in today; the proposed --

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1 the proposed rulemaking phase, in which a notice of

2 proposed rulemaking would go out. We haven't yet begun

3 that phase for any of the rules. But once we do enter

4 that phase, the Commission is going in for at least a

5 60-day written comment period, so if you were unable to

6 comment on any of the discussion drafts as they've come

7 out, there is going to be at least a 60-day written

8 comment period available for you if we go into the

9 notice of proposed rulemaking. And then, finally, the

10 final rule.

11 All of the preliminary discussion drafts are

12 available on our website. Currently, we have seven

13 posted. They are initial working drafts only. They are

14 a -- they are our attempt to put into regulation draft

15 form the comments that we've received from tribes and

16 the comments that we've received internally from our

17 staff addressing the issues that we've seen come up.

18 But, again, they are only initial working drafts.

19 All of these consultations are transcribed.

20 All written comments and transcripts are posted on our

21 website at www.NIGC.gov. If you have -- if you have an

22 issue or it's difficult for you to find where that

23 information is located, please don't hesitate to reach

24 out to us, and we can get you that information.

25 I will say this again, at the end of this

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1 first session, probably throughout the day -- but

2 because these meetings are transcribed, when you do

3 speak, we need for you to speak into the microphone,

4 state your name and your tribal affiliation so that our

5 transcriptionist, over there, can make sure that the

6 transcript is accurate.

7 The commitment by the Commission is that every

8 comment will be reviewed and considered. I can speak

9 from personal experience, watching Steffani cart around

10 a giant binder that's about the size of her, and taking

11 it home and reading these at night, so -- so that

12 they're up to speed and they know what your comments

13 are.

14 We, also -- we have posted on the website, and

15 we are sending out letters, receipt letters, so that you

16 know that your comments reached us and that we are

17 considering them. We've heard comments about sort of

18 this black hole that the NIGC becomes, that the tribes

19 send their letters in to. And we certainly don't want

20 that to be the case here and are trying to be

21 responsive.

22 Any proposed or final rule also commits to

23 including a summary of comments. And the Commission is

24 committed to a clear and transparent process, so you

25 will be able to see what their decisionmaking process

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1 was and any preamble to any proposed or final rules.

2 And you will be able to see all the documents that they

3 used -- they will be on our website -- to make any final

4 decisions.

5 So we have quite an aggressive agenda today

6 and tomorrow. We're going to be reviewing all four

7 groups. Group one and group two are behind us. We'll

8 go over them throughout the day. Groups three and

9 four -- we'll review group four today, as well. We're

10 saving group three and group five for tomorrow.

11 So that's the schedule that's -- it's in your

12 handout, so I won't read through them. You will hear

13 about them throughout the day.

14 So this morning, we're going to begin with a

15 discussion on group one. Group one includes part 514,

16 the fee regulation, which there is a draft regulation in

17 your handouts and, also, on the website. Part 523,

18 which is a potential repeal, there is no handout for

19 that. Part 542, which is Class III minimum internal

20 controls, again, there is no handout for that, aside

21 from the PowerPoint. Part 559 is facility license

22 regulations. There is a draft rule, and it should be in

23 your handouts that were available on the table outside.

24 And, then, finally a potential Buy Indian regulation.

25 So as you go -- as you look at the draft

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1 regulation for part 514, we've done a couple of things,

2 or tried to do a couple of things, and that is, the

3 first -- the first thing that we did was we heard that

4 tribes were interested in, and our comptroller was

5 interested in, seeing tribes submit their fee statements

6 based on audited financials for their fiscal year.

7 As many of you know, not all operations

8 operate on a calendar fiscal year. A lot of times, your

9 fiscal year ends on September 30th, et cetera. And it's

10 more accurate to base the calculation of fees on a

11 gaming operation's fiscal year. So we made that change

12 in the draft. And that's noted on the PowerPoint in

13 your handout and also in the draft.

14 The fee rates, instead of publishing it on --

15 the preliminary fee rate on February 1st, we're moving

16 to a March 1st publication date. And that's so that we

17 can gather all the information, get all the audited

18 financials, and make a more accurate projection so that

19 we don't have to change that rate later in the year.

20 We have removed some terminology just to

21 reflect industry standards, moved back to quarterly

22 payments. A couple of years ago, the Agency moved to

23 semi-annual payments, and, now, we're moving back. And

24 we've had some feedback from tribes saying that that is

25 helpful, and it is helpful from the agency operation

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1 standpoint, as well.

2 We're clarifying -- so the second point on

3 this page is a little bit confusing, but it is a

4 clarification. And we simply are trying to refer back

5 to the actual calculations, how you come up with your

6 fee, with your fee rates, or with the fee that's

7 assessed, so it's just a clarification point.

8 The notification period for if the gaming

9 operation changes, say you're on a calendar year, and

10 you move to a September 30th fiscal year. How do you

11 notify us of that? That's in the discussion draft.

12 And sort of the biggest change, or one of the

13 biggest changes in this particular regulation, is the

14 inclusion of a sort of a -- we call it a ticketing-type

15 system for when the tribes have submitted their fees to

16 the NIGC late.

17 We've had the instance arise, and I think this

18 happened in 2009, where a number of notices of violation

19 went out to tribes who had submitted their fees to the

20 Agency late. There was a quite a lot of the tribes that

21 were upset about this, and because a notice of violation

22 carries with it some very significant repercussions for

23 their bond rates, those kinds of things.

24 And so the -- we, internally, and then the

25 tribes, have been very supportive of developing sort of

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1 this ticketing system so if a tribe is late submitting

2 their fees, unless they are 92-plus days late, they

3 won't receive a notice of violation. You would simply

4 receive a ticket-type system and a percentage rate, a

5 percentage or a dollar amount that's escalated the later

6 that you are.

7 So we sort of compare it to getting a parking

8 ticket. If you don't pay your parking ticket within

9 30 days, then you get an additional fee attached to the

10 amount that the ticket actually was. So it's sort of

11 along those lines.

12 One of the questions that we do have, and it

13 is not -- and you will see in your discussion draft,

14 there's a blank there left for how much those additional

15 fees, penalties should be if -- if the fee is late. And

16 we've got several blank marks, I think, that begin on

17 line 13 of that particular section on that page. So if

18 you have comments or you have any ideas on what the

19 percentage rate should be, we would certainly like to

20 hear that.

21 The key distinction that we make is -- is from

22 a late -- from the fees being submitted late to a

23 failure to pay your fees. So if a tribe fails to pay

24 the fees, which is 92-plus days late, then in that

25 instance, the -- the Chair would be able to issue a

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1 notice of violation.

2 The other new section is a section that just

3 sort of formalizes and codifies the

4 fingerprint-processing fees. A number of tribes use the

5 Agency to process their fingerprinting cards, and so we

6 just wanted to formalize and lay out clearly how the

7 fees would be assessed for tribes utilizing that

8 service. Certainly, not all tribes do that, but for

9 those tribes that do use that service, we want to be

10 clear about what those fees will be.

11 So one of the questions we asked in the Notice

12 of Inquiry was whether or not we should use a definition

13 of -- if we should change the definition of "gross

14 gaming revenues" to be consistent with GAAP for the

15 purposes of calculating the fees. This discussion draft

16 doesn't make that change because, as we looked at the

17 definition of GAAP, and we looked at the definition of

18 IGRA, we realized the two were not necessarily

19 consistent. And we have a statutory definition of

20 "gross gaming revenue" that we have to abide by, and --

21 and GAAP was not consistent with that.

22 There were additional concerns because GAAP is

23 accounting -- it is an accounting principle, and it

24 could change. And if we simply use a definition of

25 GAAP, that definition could change, and we might not

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1 necessarily be ready to adjust our definition within the

2 regulation in a timely manner. So we had some concerns

3 about this, so we didn't include it in the draft.

4 However, we do know that fee calculations is

5 one of the areas that tribes struggle with for a number

6 of reasons. It is certainly -- we did sort of a "Fee

7 101" with the audit department. And we've been asking

8 questions since it's -- it's difficult to understand, I

9 know, certainly, from my perspective. And I'm not an

10 auditor.

11 But we do have fee audits that happen

12 frequently for tribes that have miscalculated their --

13 their fees that were assessed, and this could be simply

14 because it's not clear what you can deduct, what you

15 should add, how you -- we've received a number of

16 questions on how do you account for -- if the tribe is

17 issuing a match play, for example, and you're basically

18 wagering with the tribe's own money, how do you deduct

19 that? What is the calculation for the win? It is a

20 complicated -- I'm sure your finance people can tell you

21 that it's a complicated calculation. And it's something

22 that we want to be clear on, and so we've been asking

23 tribes. Perhaps, we need to define better what a

24 "wager" is and what a "payout" is, and, perhaps, that

25 will help clarify that issue. So if you have thoughts

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1 on that, then we would certainly like to hear them.

2 The written comments period on the discussion

3 draft closed on May 31st. It doesn't mean that we're

4 not taking comments. And, certainly, if we propose a

5 notice of proposed rulemaking, there's a 60-day comment

6 period and additional consultation and an opportunity

7 for you to weigh in on those issues.

8 Part 523, this we all sort of agreed

9 internally. As we received comments from tribes

10 externally that -- that this regulation, was obsolete

11 and that it could be -- it should be repealed. And so

12 that's the question on the table. We haven't issued a

13 notice that we're repealing this yet, so if you have

14 comments or concerns about this, we'd like to hear them,

15 as well.

16 MR. GREEN: Can I back you up to 514 before we

17 look at the next one?

18 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Yes, sir.

19 MR. GREEN: Where does it say when you pay?

20 MS. ECHO-HAWK: I'm sorry?

21 MR. GREEN: Where does 514 -- where does 514.1

22 require we pay?

23 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Where does 514? I'm sorry?

24 MR. GREEN: 514.1 has now been changed, so we

25 have to report our calculations. But I didn't see

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1 anything in here that ever said we had to pay you.

2 MS. ECHO-HAWK: 514.1?

3 MR. GREEN: Yes. Where it talks about our

4 annual payments.

5 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Uh-huh.

6 MR. GREEN: You replaced -- where does it say

7 when we pay?

8 MS. ECHO-HAWK: It says -- yeah. It says, in

9 (c)(4), "Each gaming operation shall determine the

10 amount of fees to be paid, and remit them with a

11 quarterly statement required under paragraph (c) of this

12 section"?

13 MR. GREEN: In (c)(4)?

14 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Line 13, on page three.

15 MR. GREEN: Thank you.

16 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Okay. So moving on to part

17 559, facility license, this is also in your -- this was

18 a handout, so we do have a discussion draft available

19 for you to sort of follow along on.

20 The Notice of Inquiry asked whether or not

21 this part should be revised. We received a number of

22 comments. We had -- that were unanimous in their

23 support of reviewing this, of re-reviewing this

24 regulation, for a number of varying reasons. Some

25 tribes didn't agree with the regulation's substance.

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1 Some tribes didn't agree with the way the regulation was

2 enacted.

3 And so we went back to the drawing board, and

4 we came up with the draft that you have in front of you

5 today. It does a number of things. It changes the time

6 frame for notice of a new facility license.

7 It used to be that tribes were required --

8 well, the current relation requires that tribes submit a

9 notice to NIGC 120 days before any new facility is

10 opened. As you can see, on page one, 559.2(b), the

11 chair -- there's a different process. The 60-day

12 process with an additional 60 days as -- at the tribe's

13 discretion, and with the ability for an expedited

14 review, if -- if that's possible.

15 And also -- the new draft also requires that a

16 newly-issued or renewed license be sent to NIGC within

17 30 days of issuance. We removed the requirement that

18 the -- that the facility license has to be renewed every

19 three years. That's no longer in the regulation. Now,

20 a tribe can renew if -- if it chooses, or issue it once.

21 That's up to the tribe's discretion. It's not mandated

22 any longer by the regulation.

23 Additionally, instead of requiring the tribe

24 to send in a lot of information that may be contained in

25 another -- at another federal agency, or somewhere else

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1 within the federal family, the tribe simply has to issue

2 an attestation that the construction and maintenance of

3 the facility and operation is conducted in a manner

4 which adequately protects the environment, public health

5 and safety, which is language verbatim from the Act.

6 Finally, the last sort of points that we

7 changed within this discussion draft was that the notice

8 of -- the notice to the NIGC would be the tribe would

9 send notice to the NIGC within 30 days when the license

10 is terminated or expires, or just when it closes or

11 opens or reopens.

12 We've had some questions come up, "What does

13 that mean when a -- when a facility opens or re- -- or

14 closes or reopens? What is a temporary closure? What's

15 a seasonal closure?" Those are questions that we have

16 in the draft. In fact, 559.5, there is a blank in the

17 last sentence, and it says, "A tribe need not provide a

18 notification of a seasonal closure or of a temporary

19 closure with a duration of less than blank days."

20 Obviously, for the -- for the Agency, we need

21 to know when facilities are closed and not operating.

22 And so what is that trigger? When -- what -- during

23 what time frame would it be reasonable for the tribe to

24 notify us when -- that the facility is going to be

25 closed for a certain amount of time, which is to be

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1 determined? And that's why the blank is in there.

2 We're also trying to move into the 20th --

3 we're hoping maybe the 21st Century one day. And we've

4 provided a section in there that tribes could submit

5 documents electronically. So we're trying to -- to move

6 forward and kind of keep paper down.

7 Written comment on this discussion draft

8 closed on June 17th. Again, that doesn't mean that

9 we're not taking comments. And, certainly, whenever we

10 issue a notice of proposed rulemaking, there will,

11 again, be additional time for consultation, and at least

12 60 days' written comment period.

13 The other issue that came up in group one was

14 whether or not the issue that we asked of whether or not

15 the Agency should draft a Buy Indian regulation or

16 policy, something that mandates that the Agency, when we

17 go out and we -- we go out into the field to hold

18 meetings like this, there will be purchasing. We're

19 going to be moving. We have to -- our lease expires,

20 and we're going to begin moving, perhaps, our offices in

21 a couple of years. So when we go and do that as an

22 agency, that we buy Indian. This is not something that

23 we're requiring tribes to do at all. This -- that's a

24 question that has come up. This is a mandate for the

25 Agency, that we buy Indian when we go and purchase goods

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1 and services.

2 Tribes have been very supportive of this,

3 although there has been some debate about whether or not

4 it should be -- should be a regulation or a policy. We

5 haven't issued a draft yet, but we're certainly

6 interested in hearing what your thoughts are on that.

7 And then, finally, group three MICS, Class III

8 MICS. This is an issue that, again, we'll discuss

9 somewhere tomorrow. But one of the questions has come

10 up about how we -- how should we address Class III MICS.

11 It is an issue of attention throughout the country among

12 the tribes in various regions concerned about what the

13 impact could be based on what the Agency could do with

14 Class III MICS, whether we continue promulgating,

15 whether we repeal, whether we issue guidance.

16 It is something that tribes, obviously, are

17 concerned about, and may impact tribes across the

18 country very differently in -- in different areas. So

19 it is something that we're interested in hearing your

20 thoughts on how we should address that particular issue.

21 So with that, we'll begin taking comment on

22 group one. I will turn it back over to Vice Chair

23 Cochran.

24 One more time, if you do speak, then, please,

25 state your name. Speak in the mike, and state your name

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1 and tribal affiliation so that we can make sure the

2 transcript is accurate. Thank you.

3 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you, Lael. We have

4 some councilmen that have joined us. Could I ask you to

5 identify yourself?

6 MR. ROMERO: Good morning. Ramos Romero,

7 former Governor from the Pueblo of Tesuque.

8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Good morning. I'm a

9 councilman of the Pueblo.

10 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Good morning.

11 Good morning, Governor. Thank you for joining

12 us.

13 And I also neglected that we have one more

14 staff member in the audience.

15 I apologize, I overlooked you.

16 Brett West is one of our auditors, and he has

17 been with the Agency many years, I believe.

18 All right. That is the first group. And as

19 you can see, it's a lot of material to go over. But it

20 is the -- many of these have been in the works for a

21 while so we've gotten some discussion drafts out, and

22 we've circulated them.

23 One of the things that we, as a commission,

24 agreed to do, as well, is to put out discussion drafts

25 before we put out, even, a proposed notice of

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1 rulemaking. And that is an attempt to give the tribes

2 an opportunity to comment, to give you what we're

3 thinking, how it might look. It certainly doesn't

4 reflect how it may look in the end. But it's a way of

5 stimulating discussion and showing you kind of where the

6 Agency is coming from initially. And so we get lots of

7 feedback on the discussion draft, as well as we

8 encourage you to continue all throughout to -- to

9 comment as you see them come in.

10 Before we break -- we've got about ten

11 minutes -- I'm going to open up the floor, first, to

12 anybody who has particular thoughts on any of these

13 particular parts that we've put out before I begin

14 individually.

15 Okay. The part 514, the fees, this has been

16 out in the discussion arena for quite some time. And

17 the -- the feedback that we're getting on the discussion

18 draft was very supportive. The item which continues to

19 kind of stir discussion is the provision on using the

20 GAAP definition.

21 Lael commented that the Agency's fear is,

22 although the auditors use GAAP often, that term is -- is

23 subject to change if we just do a blanket referral to it

24 without consideration for how it impacts our particular

25 industry. And it may also create some problems for us

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1 that would not have a favorable impact as far as how we

2 define internally the -- what you're going to pay out.

3 And so the discussion draft that we've circulated does

4 not include that change to a GAAP definition.

5 Is there anyone that has different thoughts or

6 would like to offer different thoughts on looking at

7 that? I know we have some financial people in the room.

8 We also -- right before I started my term last

9 January, the decision was made to go to a semi-annual

10 payment to -- of the fees to NIGC. And I, to this day,

11 still am not clear on why that decision was made. The

12 result, however, has created a lot of uncertainty in how

13 the Agency budgets itself. It also played a little bit

14 of havoc with the tribes and their accounting systems.

15 And so our proposal is to go back to the

16 quarterly system, which will not only allow tribes to

17 set it according to their fiscal years, but will also

18 bring certainty back in the Agency's budgeting. And it

19 created a gap for us that was difficult for us to manage

20 budgetarily. We got through it, but to go -- only

21 receiving monies in twice a year, as you can imagine, is

22 a difficult task for a federal agency to do.

23 So our proposal is to go back to the quarterly

24 payment system. Our proposal is to allow you to use

25 your definition of what your fiscal year is. Some

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1 tribes have asked if they can still pay semi-annually or

2 if they can -- some tribes pay their fees up front for

3 the year, and then we draw down on it. Those options

4 are still there. They absolutely are. It's just, like

5 I said, an attempt to bring our practices more in line

6 with what you're doing in your own operations and to be

7 more consistent with your fiscal years.

8 Thank you.

9 Good morning, Maxine.

10 MS. VELASQUEZ: Good morning. Maxine

11 Velasquez. I'm in-house general counsel for the Pueblo

12 of Tesuque and Chair for the Gaming Control Board.

13 Just going back to that 514 regarding the

14 issue of GAAP and the definition, I -- I don't have any

15 conclusions at this point, but I think it is important

16 to note that, as we're going through and looking at

17 using GAAP, of course, we need to also -- I just want to

18 bring it to your attention that we also are looking at

19 GAAP from different perspectives, such as free play in

20 the state of New Mexico and how we deal with that

21 definition, how it affects us in New Mexico when it

22 comes to revenue shares.

23 So I guess my -- my dilemma -- and I think

24 it's important that we start thinking about this -- is

25 how we use GAAP in definitions such as this and how we

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1 use gap when it comes to interpreting the compact, and

2 what is what, and how the -- how to be consistent. And,

3 also, how are we using it in a -- in a fair manner that

4 actually, in essence, helps the tribe on its arguments?

5 I know that's really vague. We haven't figured that out

6 here.

7 We're dealing with an issue, here in New

8 Mexico, when it comes to free play and GAAP and the New

9 Mexico Gaming Control Board. So I'm going to have to

10 figure -- talk to some financial folks, as well, and try

11 to figure that out. But I just wanted to bring it to

12 the Commission's attention.

13 This is an issue we're dealing with now, use

14 GAAP here, and don't use GAAP here. How do we deal with

15 that issue, and how do we set some precise definitions

16 and -- and regulations so that that doesn't ever change,

17 like you just spoke about.

18 MS. ECHO-HAWK: I'm trying to avoid feedback.

19 Thanks.

20 That -- that is a comment that we've heard

21 quite a bit, particularly in these definition parts with

22 the definition of gross gaming revenue and the

23 definition of net revenues, that, oftentimes, the

24 compact and the -- our regulations and the Act don't

25 necessarily match, which makes calculations even more

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1 difficult.

2 So from our perspective, the only thing that

3 we sort of have control over is the definitions included

4 in the regulations. If there is a way that we can

5 clarify that, make it easier, either through guidance or

6 regulation, we do want to hear that because that is

7 something we hear frequently, that you're managing sort

8 of two different definitions, and it's difficult to make

9 them mesh. And if there's a way that we can be more

10 consistent or clear, that -- that we should try to do

11 that.

12 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: All right. Anything else

13 on GAAP?

14 Yes.

15 GOVERNOR GARCIA: Thank you. Again, David

16 Garcia, First Lieutenant Governor, Pueblo of Acoma.

17 Thank you, Maxine, for that comment.

18 But in relation to the GAAP issue, I mean I

19 don't understand, truly, the emphasis behind GAAP. All

20 of the audits performed across the nation are relative

21 to being audited under the general accounting accepted

22 principles. I mean that's AICPA practice. So I -- I

23 still doesn't understand what the difference is or what

24 the emphasis is, really.

25 I think it's really more the emphasis on

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1 identifying, maybe, revenue at this point, or

2 identifying the calculation method. I -- I don't

3 understand the clarity behind "Do we or do we not apply

4 GAAP practice and principles?" In theory, that's all

5 AICPA standards, unless there is something other than

6 AICPA. Then, I think that NIGC needs to go back and

7 further do its homework and get up to speed with

8 accounting methods and practices, so I -- I mean that's

9 my opinion.

10 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Thank you.

11 That -- it is something that we're -- we're

12 considering. The issue is that we have a statutory

13 definition that basically says, "Gross gaming revenue is

14 wager minus payout," very generally. That's not the

15 exact words of the Act, but that's -- which is fine.

16 It's sort of oversimplified when it comes to how

17 complicated the industry has gotten in terms of

18 promotions and the way that -- that the operation can

19 sort of encourage additional play through the use of --

20 you know, you get the little match play tickets or comps

21 or, you know, the various mechanisms you have at your

22 disposal and use to encourage additional play.

23 Where -- where things get confused and where

24 we see that the fees are miscalculated is when -- when

25 the operation tries to -- tries to -- you know, you

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1 deduct some things and not deduct others, and you add

2 things that maybe shouldn't be included into what a

3 wager is or what a deduction is or what payout is. And

4 it's -- it's not very clear.

5 Now, we do have this matrix on our website,

6 which, if you look at it alone, is also not as clear as

7 it could be. When we did our little "Fee 101" class, we

8 saw that, plus, we saw the PowerPoint. And we were able

9 to talk to our audit -- audit department. It was more

10 clear. But it is certainly something that, within the

11 Agency, we would like to assist tribes in -- in

12 preventing sort of these fee audits and miscalculations.

13 And however we can do that, we want to do that.

14 We -- I think the initial thought behind GAAP

15 was that GAAP -- the -- the accounting -- I don't know

16 the -- I forgot the acronym, but the accounting

17 department or the audit, whatever that group is, had

18 been developing a guideline for how you calculate these

19 things for the gaming industry. As we looked more

20 closely at it, our audit division came to the conclusion

21 that the way that this was developing would not be --

22 would not comply with the statutory definition included

23 in IGRA, so we're bound by -- by that.

24 Certainly, there are things that happen within

25 the accounting and financial -- the finance department

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1 as you're calculating the -- the fees that -- that

2 follow those guidelines, but we have to be really clear

3 in our definition and the things we include in the regs,

4 that they comply with the Act. So we're sort of walking

5 this -- this fine line right now in trying to be as

6 clear as possible, while maintaining the integrity of

7 what the Act says.

8 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Does that answer your

9 question? Does it respond to your question?

10 GOVERNOR GARCIA: I guess, maybe, as a word of

11 caution, I mean unless the AICPA develops a -- a

12 standard within their activities, you don't want to

13 insert something that could affect the tribes in their

14 accounting practice; otherwise, you're forcing a process

15 that has not been put in place through AICPA, and that

16 could cause repercussions, as mentioned.

17 Here in the state of New Mexico, we are

18 dealing with the issues of an accounting process for

19 identifying free play and how we calculate the free play

20 activity. And that's something that I don't think even

21 NIGC could explain that process to us without having to

22 go back through and sit down with the financial folks

23 and agree, "Here is going to be the process." So you're

24 adding on more -- something that I don't think should be

25 in place. But, clearly, I think the process has to be

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1 looked at from a different focus.

2 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: The draft discussion that

3 is out would not change anything that's currently in

4 place.

5 GOVERNOR GARCIA: Okay.

6 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: The -- the question that

7 came up is "Should we change to GAAP principles?" So

8 the discussion draft is to maintain what the Agency

9 currently does. I -- and I know Maxine is heavily

10 involved, as many of you are, in this.

11 You know, look at the current Agency practice,

12 and we would welcome comments coming in from this area

13 to maybe look at the issue differently. But right --

14 what we've got out there right now doesn't change the

15 current practice of the Agency.

16 MR. APODACA: Good morning. Albert Apodaca

17 with the Mescalero Apache Tribal Gaming Commission.

18 My concern would be the definition of wager

19 and payout because that -- that will impact us

20 tremendously, not just us, but the tribes across the

21 country. I think you have to tread carefully there.

22 I kind of see it as a conflict of interest

23 because if you're the NIGC, and you want to increase

24 your fees, the more you include in wagers, the -- you

25 know, the more fees you're going to obtain, right?

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1 Whereas, the tribes, on the other side, are trying not

2 to pay for something that we deem not to be a wager.

3 So obviously, we have a lot of concern with a

4 definition of wager and payout being, you know, defined

5 by NIGC. Obviously, if the State likes the definition,

6 they would try to apply it. If they don't like it, they

7 would try to come up with their own. So it's -- it's

8 going to be a battle no matter what.

9 But from our standpoint, we would be concerned

10 about the definitions of "wager" and "payout." That --

11 that definitely would -- would be a huge concern to us

12 in how it affects, you know, not only our payments to

13 the State of New Mexico, but other tribes, like I said

14 previously.

15 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you.

16 When I first came onto the Commission, I had

17 the privilege of spending a lot of time in the room with

18 some tribes prior to the other commissioners joining me.

19 And in that course of travels, I spent some time in some

20 areas of Indian country that are more remote, that have

21 smaller facilities. And I really cherish that time

22 because I actually got a very clear perspective of what

23 these tribes are facing, even though they are thrown

24 into the category of gaming tribes and have the

25 perception that they are like the large ones.

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1 In those travels, I heard from a couple of

2 tribes about the NOVs that were issued right before the

3 end of the prior term, the former Commission, and heard

4 the impact that those interviews had on those tribes.

5 And to -- to put it in perspective, one of the tribes

6 explained to me that they owed $1,400 in fees to the

7 Agency they were unable to pay for their own very good

8 reasons, or were late in paying, and ended up with a

9 $25,000 fine. This was just something I couldn't

10 understand for any reason whatsoever. I couldn't

11 understand how we got to that place and why we got to

12 that place.

13 So when the other commissioners came on board

14 and started talking with the tribes, and I shared some

15 of the stories that I had been told from these smaller

16 communities, we agreed, very clearly, that that just

17 isn't the right option.

18 It is very important, of course, that the

19 Agency receive its funding to continue to maintain

20 operations, but at the same time, we have an obligation

21 to ensure the wellbeing of these casinos and these

22 operations. And the system that was in place doesn't

23 work to achieve that goal.

24 And so under the fee -- the discussion draft

25 that we put out, this is where you see what we loosely

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1 are calling the "ticketing system." I don't know if

2 that form states it or not. But the thought is, just

3 like any financial obligation that we have, either on a

4 business side or on a personal side, if you're

5 delinquent in paying your obligations, normally there's

6 some financial cost associated, whether it's a fine,

7 whether it's a higher interest rate. I mean there are

8 different ways to deal with it. And we felt like that

9 is a better solution than an NOV.

10 And so the draft that we put out and -- and

11 receiving a great deal of support on -- does include

12 this late fee ticketing system, if you will. And in the

13 draft, on page five, starting about page -- or excuse

14 me -- line nine, is the proposed system that we're

15 suggesting, which says, just very simply, "If you're

16 30 days late, there's a cost associated with it. And if

17 you're 60 days late, there's a cost associated with it."

18 What we are looking for is, of course,

19 comments on whether or not this is a good idea in

20 general. But, also, you will see there's blanks in

21 there to get feedback of, "Do we say there's a $25 fee

22 or is there a 10 percent fee?" What is -- what is it

23 that seems to be appropriate? What seems to be fair?

24 Then, of course, after the 91st calendar day,

25 if a tribe continues to be delinquent, then, at that

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1 point, then the Chair would have the discretion to issue

2 a NOV. And this process is also designed to -- to --

3 all throughout this time period to continue to have

4 conversations with the tribe about what's happening, why

5 the fees aren't coming in, so that if we get to the 92nd

6 day, there's no -- no uncertainty as to why we're there

7 and whether or not the chair should take more stringent

8 action.

9 And tribes have also said that they believe,

10 "Hey, we pay our fees on time. We expect everybody else

11 to pay their fees on time. And at some point, it

12 becomes intentional. And we do support that the Agency

13 should have an opportunity to be more stringent in their

14 approach with it."

15 So I -- before we go on break, I want to just

16 offer the -- the floor to comments about this. I wanted

17 to give you some background on why we went there. Our

18 intent, really, is to do something better than an NOV

19 just because you're late. So I open up the floor if

20 anybody has thoughts?

21 MS. WARD: Yes?

22 GOVERNOR GARCIA: David Garcia. My interests

23 would be looking at the history. I guess I want to know

24 -- my interest would be are we definitely -- is there a

25 trend in terms of nonpayment of the fee? And -- and

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1 what does that history look like within five years? And

2 then, my question, I guess, would be to NIGC, what, if

3 any, have you been -- what -- what were your thoughts in

4 terms of the percentages? I mean because you're looking

5 at a tier activity, much like the tier classifications

6 for levels of gross revenue generated.

7 I don't know. I mean it is very difficult to

8 answer because not knowing, truly, has there been --

9 what -- what is the trend in terms of none or delinquent

10 fees not being paid by gaming tribes that puts us all in

11 this basket where we're now seeing the repercussions of

12 introduction of the potential for paying interest

13 penalties, I guess you want to call it, by gaming

14 tribes?

15 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Lieutenant, that is a

16 good question. The -- I came into office on

17 January 4th, 2010. The NOVs were issued October, I

18 believe, of 2009. And, again, if my memory serves me

19 correct -- and I have two very intelligent women sitting

20 next to me. If my memory serves me correct, we issued

21 33 NOVs for late payment of fees in 2009. And there

22 were far fewer before.

23 In the conversations that we've had with the

24 Agency, the staff who have been around for a while, the

25 part of the decisionmaking to issue the NOVs had to do

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1 with the expensive amount of late fees that were

2 happening at that time. And, again, this is just

3 conversations. I have looked for written explanation as

4 to why the regulation was changed -- or excuse me -- why

5 the NOVs were issued.

6 33 NOVs out of the 233 gaming tribes, I

7 believe, at the time -- I believe we returned 32 at the

8 time, is -- I'm not good at math. That's why I'm a

9 lawyer -- is 10 percent, 20 percent. And the -- the

10 thoughts that we were having, as I was explaining, is

11 the NOV -- NOV is such an extreme measure. That is

12 our -- that's our biggest hammer we have against tribes.

13 It should be used only as a last resort as far as this

14 Commission is concerned. There are so many other things

15 we can do to bring in compliance, whether on a late fee,

16 or any other issue, without resorting to an NOV.

17 As I was explaining, you have a small tribe

18 with 40 employees who gets hit with a $25,000 NOV, and

19 it affects so much more than just even the $25 (sic)

20 fine that came along with their NOV.

21 So that's the best I can give you as to how we

22 got here. That's what the history of the Agency is. At

23 least, the formal record shows there were 33 NOVs that

24 were issued in 2009.

25 The -- as to thoughts on the percentage versus

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1 an amount, you know, the Agency, we've not taken any

2 position. That's why we left it open to talk to the

3 tribes to see what their thoughts were. I can tell you

4 the discussions, as I've gone throughout Indian country

5 on the consultations, is a position that fairness seems

6 to dictate that a percentage would be more accommodating

7 to the -- the tribes.

8 Those tribes who have more income revenue

9 coming, or fees -- larger fees that are owed to the

10 Agency should pay more based on a simple percentage,

11 thereby giving a little more cushion to those smaller

12 facilities who may not be able to pay on time,

13 understanding that there's a fee, but yet can meet

14 those -- meet those requirements without the

15 sledgehammer of an NOV. That's what I'm hearing

16 overall. That seems to be the fairness side of it,

17 what's more fair. But, again, that's not the Agency's

18 position. It's just what the consultations are

19 suggesting.

20 MR. CHIWIWI: I have a question. Of the 33

21 that were given notice, was there compliance after a

22 short time? Or what was their common factors for

23 noncompliance?

24 MS. ECHO-HAWK: We heard a range of things. I

25 can tell you at the time that I was -- at the time that

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1 I was working for a tribal operation, we got an NOV.

2 And it was very short of shocking and upsetting for the

3 tribe at the time. And the reason we got it was we had

4 turnover within our finance department. The new person

5 that came on didn't realize that she had to do this, and

6 so she was late. I think we were late 20 days one time

7 and like 20 days, or something, the next.

8 And -- but to be hit with an NOV -- as I'm

9 sure you know is a notice of violation -- and $25,000

10 per day per violation. And -- and it can be very -- you

11 know, I'm sure if any tribe has ever had to deal with a

12 NOV, it's a very upsetting thing.

13 We heard -- I heard in the Great Plains that

14 some -- somebody's -- I think it was a tribe, that their

15 CPA had a heart attack and had to go to the hospital.

16 It was simply -- I mean we heard just a range of things,

17 from personnel who didn't know, to really an egregious

18 situation like that, and they weren't able to pay their

19 fees on time and got hit with the notice of violation.

20 So the intent of this section is, really, to

21 prevent the Agency from doing that in the future and to

22 make sure that our response is reasonable based on the

23 situation.

24 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: I can also share with you

25 that the 2010 payments -- I understand that there were

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1 very few that were delinquent in 2010. If the intent

2 was to bring compliance in a very confronting way, the

3 goal was achieved. I don't know what that percentage

4 was, but I remember, at one point, somebody saying they

5 believed that there were only a handful of tribes

6 that -- that were not timely, the follow-up.

7 Okay. We're still running behind schedule, so

8 we're going to take a short break. If I could ask that

9 we convene in about ten minutes, rather than 15, so that

10 we can try to get us back onto our agenda, I would

11 appreciate it. And we'll see you about 20 till.

12 (Recess.)

13 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: On part 23, as Lael's

14 PowerPoint mentions, this part has to do with the review

15 and approval of existing ordinances and resolutions.

16 This part only applies to tribal ordinances enacted

17 before January 22nd, 1993, that have not been submitted

18 to the Chair for approval.

19 We are consistent with the perspective that

20 the NORs and comments were the tribes', and we were of

21 the mind that this part could be repealed in its

22 entirety. There is no existing ordinances or

23 resolutions that existed prior to 1993 and have not been

24 approved by the Chair.

25 Is there any different thoughts?

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1 MR. BACA: Elijah Baca, Executive Director of

2 the Santa Clara Pueblo's Gaming Commission. I actually

3 have a comment or a question, actually, pertaining back

4 to 514, under the fees.

5 Under the ticketing system that you're

6 recommending implementing, are those -- if a tribe is

7 given a ticket, are you looking at posting those online

8 for public view, as well as you do with the NOVs, or is

9 that something that is generally going to stay in-house

10 and only between that tribe and NIGC?

11 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: That's a good question.

12 I was just clarifying with Lael because we talked

13 about -- internally about posting NOVs on the website

14 and what that means to tribes, what the Agency's

15 obligations are to transparency. I mean there's a whole

16 lot of factors that go into, kind of, looking at that

17 question. And we hadn't really discussed it in terms of

18 the tickets. I would suspect -- part of what we're

19 trying to do is to get away from that heavy-handed

20 approach to this.

21 It would seem there could be an argument made

22 that part of that would not be making these part of the

23 public discussion, at least not on the website. But,

24 again, it has not been discussed. And I'm certain that

25 is something we'll take back and needs to be discussed.

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1 MR. BACA: Thank you.

2 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Were there any other

3 questions on the fees?

4 MR. GALLEGOS: I do. Manny Gallegos, Pueblo

5 of Tesuque Gaming Commission.

6 I was looking at the fees a little closer on

7 your graduated ticketing method. And being a former tax

8 administrator with the State, I find it a little

9 confusing, rather than -- the way it's done.

10 I would recommend that you consider, and the

11 tribes consider, that you look at making it much simpler

12 because if you're going to do a percentage, say, for

13 each 30-day period, why couldn't you just summarize it

14 and say that there is a flat, say, 1 percent, 1 percent

15 assessable per month, up to a maximum per month, or up

16 to a maximum. And once you hit the maximum, then you

17 would go to the NOV, rather than accrue it on the 92nd

18 day, and the Commissioner may go ahead and issue the

19 NOV? I mean you take out a lot of the steps.

20 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Thank you. We're trying to be

21 clear, and maybe we did a little too much, so we'll take

22 that back and take a look at it. Thank you.

23 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Brevity is always a good

24 thing where we can be. Thank you.

25 MR. ROBERT GARCIA: Good morning. My question

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1 is on the percentages that you have proposed. My

2 question is it's going to be the amount that's --

3 according to the amount that's due or the annual fee

4 based on the percentages that you're going to set?

5 MS. ECHO-HAWK: We've -- we've discussed that,

6 and I believe that it's going to be based on the amount

7 that's due. We haven't made a decision. That's what we

8 have been talking about internally, that the percentage,

9 or the dollar amount, whatever it would be, would be

10 based on the amount that is due that particular quarter.

11 MR. ROBERT GARCIA: Thank you. That would

12 make sense.

13 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Any other questions on

14 514?

15 Lieutenant Governor?

16 GOVERNOR GARCIA: Again, maybe just for

17 clarity -- David Garcia, Pueblo of Acoma.

18 Again, for the issue of clarity, the NOV

19 provision is still in the regulation, correct? So it

20 is -- and I'm trying to understand this. So would there

21 be two penalties assessed at the same time with regard

22 to the NOV penalty, the 25,000? And then, you're

23 assessing a fee for -- is that a totally separate fee,

24 or is that added to -- "Is that an add-on to the penalty

25 itself?" I guess, is, maybe, my question. Is that a

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1 secondary cost?

2 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: So, you know, a tribe

3 failed to be late --

4 GOVERNOR GARCIA: If the tribe was delinquent

5 one day, and NIGC issues a notice of violation. There's

6 a $25,000 fee paid. So then, even if that isn't paid,

7 you're still implementing the 30-days, the 60-days, the

8 90-day implementation. Now, is that -- I'm hearing two

9 things. One, it's going to be based on whether it's

10 annual or quarterly. I guess, maybe, that's one issue.

11 Or is it going to be solely based on the 25,000, on the

12 issuance of the NOV, or -- I still don't know.

13 I mean -- I guess the bottom line is, "What is

14 the benefit to NIGC?" If the benefit is you're only

15 wanting to collect $1,800 of that fee, is that a benefit

16 to you? Is that a benefit to the gaming tribe?

17 Probably not. I guess I'm trying to understand the

18 clarity of -- of NIGC's position on wanting to go with

19 the 30, 60, 90 days, but you've already got a $25,000

20 penalty assessment. I don't -- I don't understand.

21 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: I -- the $25,000 would

22 only be upon the issuance of an NOV. And, of course,

23 the NOV would be the very last step. There is no

24 benefit to the Agency either way because all fees,

25 including the fees that are collected in NOVs, go to the

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1 general treasury. They don't go to NIGC.

2 And so part of our thought process, as well,

3 is when an NOV issues and a fine is associated with that

4 NOV, those monies don't get put back into gaming. They

5 don't get put back in the pueblos. They don't get run

6 back through the Agency. They go to the treasury and

7 the benefit of the general public.

8 So there's no -- in that respect, the benefit,

9 I guess, arguably flows to the tribe in the sense that

10 your money is not going to the general treasury, which

11 is what happens under an NOV payment. The -- I think

12 what you're asking -- I want to make sure because it's a

13 good question -- is if a penalty, a ticketing payment,

14 is applied after 30 days, that increase -- that amount

15 increases after 60, after 90, and then you hit the NOV,

16 is the tribe responsible for those -- those amounts that

17 are applied at 30, 60, and 90 days? -- Is that your

18 question? -- in addition to whatever might attach with

19 the NOV?

20 GOVERNOR GARCIA: The question is you've

21 got -- well, let me back up.

22 The NOV becomes effective when?

23 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Under the proposal, it

24 would be after the 92nd day.

25 GOVERNOR GARCIA: 90 days after -- 92 days

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1 after, right. Okay.

2 So in between that period of time, you're

3 wanting -- you're suggesting, or trying to suggest, that

4 three tiers of penalty assessments, okay? And the

5 question was earlier if -- where are -- what -- what is

6 the basis for it? Is it based on the annual or the

7 quarterly or the semi-annual payments? How is -- I

8 guess, how are you determining that? And -- and -- and

9 then, that should -- I think, then, we could respond

10 with what the percentages would be, if any.

11 But if tribes continue to be in arrears, what

12 happens if you can't collect it? You're still going to

13 be issuing a NOV, and you're still going to anticipate

14 $25,000. But even if you can't collect that, then what

15 happens?

16 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Just to respond -- I'll start

17 from the beginning, the percentage, if that's what we

18 end up using, would be based on the amount that is owed

19 that particular quarter. So it would be based on

20 whatever that quarterly payment would be. The thought

21 is that the percentage would be based on that amount.

22 Then, second, it's not -- there are the three

23 tiers, but you wouldn't be assessed the first percentage

24 and then add on the second and then add on the third,

25 and then, potentially, go to an NOV. It would end up

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1 being the greater of. So say you pay at the 89th day.

2 You'd be assessed whatever that third tier is. You

3 wouldn't be assessed what the 30 days was, what the 60

4 day was, what the 90 days was. So it would be -- just

5 be one.

6 Now, with the notice of violation, the Chair

7 always, sort of, has prosecutorial discretion on whether

8 or not she or he wants to issue a notice of violation,

9 and, certainly, taking into consideration the

10 circumstances of the tribe. I think you will find that

11 any Chairperson with this responsibility will -- will

12 look at that and make a decision. And, certainly, I

13 can't speak for any Chair, or anyone in that position at

14 this time, but they -- the Chairs do have prosecutorial

15 discretion.

16 Now, if a tribe is unable to pay, or refuses

17 to pay, then there are provisions in our regulations

18 that allow us to just punt that over to the Department

19 of Treasury. And then, they use their collection

20 mechanisms to collect on those -- on those fees which

21 are owed to the NIGC. And, again, those fees don't come

22 to the NIGC. They go to the Treasury.

23 And the idea for that -- as with any agency,

24 the idea behind that is that the Agency shouldn't be

25 incentivized, sort of, by -- if they were to issue

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1 fines, and those kinds of things, they shouldn't be

2 incentivized to do that with the thought that those fees

3 would, then, come back to their agency. So those fees

4 do not -- and fines don't come back to the Agency. They

5 go to the general treasury so that there is no sort of

6 incentive to issue fines, et cetera.

7 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Any other questions on

8 514? Well, I know that this particular part is going to

9 be important for some of the things happening here in

10 New Mexico, and I really encourage you to make your

11 comments known, in writing, to us.

12 I was telling Jess, I didn't have these prior

13 to coming to the NIGC. They are read. The comments are

14 read and very carefully considered. And the more that

15 we have to put into the public record and the public

16 domain, we certainly welcome it.

17 On part 523, as I said, we are recommending a

18 potential, in accordance with the comments that came

19 back on the NOIs, that this particular part is

20 unnecessary to the workings of the Agency and that

21 repeal would be warranted.

22 Is there anybody who thinks different? Is

23 there is a tribe in the room, by any chance, that we've

24 overlooked that would fit into the definitions? I'm not

25 aware of any, but I wanted to -- you know, I always want

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1 to make sure. Okay.

2 Part 559 is our facility license

3 notifications, renewals and submissions. This has been

4 a source of discussion in many other areas of Indian

5 country. And before I get into anything, we do have the

6 form of draft out. The comments were due on June 17th.

7 But, again, we welcome comments at any point in time

8 during the discussion.

9 Is there anyone that wants to open up the

10 discussion on this particular part?

11 The -- for those of you who -- who might not

12 have a working knowledge of this particular part, it

13 does, really, have two purposes, general purposes, as we

14 see it. And the first is to receive information from

15 the tribes that the Indian land status -- about the

16 Indian land status of each facility. And then, the

17 second one is to receive information regarding whether

18 or not the construction and maintenance of gaming

19 facilities are conducted in a manner that adequately

20 protects the environment and public health and safety.

21 The existing part, we collectively agree, is

22 way outside of our lane. And as you can see from the

23 proposed discussion draft, we have significantly scaled

24 this back to bring what we believe is closer to the

25 intent and what our obligations are under IGRA. We are

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1 also looking to -- and what we're trying to achieve

2 under this is we are trying to reduce the submission

3 burden that's required by tribes. And that's why we've

4 eliminated all of it but requirement three of the EPHS

5 provisions.

6 The part of the discussion that came out, we

7 were most recently in Tulalip for consultations. And

8 much of the discussions out in Tulalip centered around,

9 on page one, section 5(b), which is the line starting on

10 line 37, about what we -- what -- what this was intended

11 to -- you know, this particular section was intended to

12 get at. And this, really, is our attempt to tell the

13 Agency to move it along in these determinations.

14 60 days, we believe, is sufficient, versus the current

15 120 days that we have to make decisions on -- under this

16 section.

17 There was also a suggestion by the tribes

18 during that consultation whether or not there we could

19 add in, perhaps, some language that might provide for a

20 notification and consultation process during this

21 review. And that would be a provision that would be put

22 in if the Chair would find a need to extend beyond the

23 60 days, so that the tribe understands why it is taking

24 the Agency longer to make a decision.

25 Under 559.5 on page five, line four, this has

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1 been another area of discussion, not so much out this

2 way. It's more something that we might see up in the

3 Great Plains, where you have facilities that have

4 seasonal closures, or facilities that might have other

5 reasons for temporarily closing.

6 And, again, the intent here that we've made is

7 to put in some language which would exempt the tribes

8 from having to provide notification under certain types

9 of conditions. And one of them are seasonal closures or

10 temporary closures.

11 We've got a facility in Kansas that was part

12 of the floods recently, and they're temporarily closed.

13 So the thought was, if we exempt them, what are

14 considered temporary closures, what constitutes, or

15 should constitute, a temporary closure, given that the

16 Agency has an obligation to know which facilities are

17 open and which are closed? And so we've left that blank

18 to get some feedback.

19 And, again, I'm not sure how much this impacts

20 this area of the country, but we wanted -- I wanted to

21 bring this to your attention in case there are some

22 smaller facilities that, perhaps, may not be open all of

23 the time. It could be a remodel. That -- that would be

24 another thing. What's a reasonable amount of time? If

25 they're closed for less than 30 days, 60 days, that they

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1 shouldn't have to notify us? But maybe if they're more

2 than that time? What might you think is reasonable?

3 And then, the other modifications that we've

4 made, again, are trying to make it clear that our

5 obligation is only to attestations from the tribes that

6 they have complied during the construction and

7 maintenance of the facilities, that you are in

8 compliance with whatever a judge requires are applicable

9 to the tribe, not as we view it, not as other entities,

10 a state or a local entity, but what is applicable to you

11 under your compact under tribal law, and -- and just get

12 that attestation that you are in compliance.

13 Are there any thoughts on any of the changes

14 that we're suggesting? Or have we missed something?

15 MR. APODACA: I don't think -- Albert Apodaca,

16 Mescalero Tribal Gaming Commission.

17 I don't think we should have to notify for

18 seasonal closures because I think it's -- given our --

19 like our situation. It's only during the ski season.

20 So how do we know how long the ski season is going to

21 last? Sometimes we close early. Sometimes we start

22 early. I mean it is -- it is predicated on the weather.

23 So I think if -- if -- if a tribe has a -- a

24 seasonal-type of gaming facility, I don't -- I don't see

25 the need to notify the Gaming Commission, the NIGC, that

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1 it has been opened or closed.

2 I think once we initially did it. Then we

3 operated, you know, accordingly. I mean most -- I think

4 most of the tribes that do have seasonal-type of

5 facilities, such as ours, it's going to be small.

6 They're not going to be huge in that sense.

7 So I think if it is a temporary closure -- I

8 don't have a problem with notification if it's like a

9 remodeling, or something to that effect, but if it is

10 seasonal, you know, that each year you're going to have

11 this come up. So -- and I would think the National

12 Gaming Commission would be understanding of that, of

13 that condition existing.

14 Thank you.

15 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: And that's exactly why

16 we've put in there that on the seasonal closures, we

17 haven't left any type of a notification time frame.

18 I'm just looking at the language. I want to

19 make sure that that's conveyed in the language that is

20 proposed. It is pretty clear.

21 MR. APODACA: It's just -- it's kind of like

22 in there.

23 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Right.

24 MR. APODACA: To -- to me, the way I read it,

25 if you're either going to have a seasonal closure or a

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1 temporary closure, you need to notify. That's -- that's

2 the way I read it.

3 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: We'll have our legal

4 beagles and their great grammatical skills look at it.

5 MR. GREEN: Jess Green.

6 In regard to 559.1, where it says that you

7 obtained verification, let me suggest that you obtain

8 the verification from the tribe's gaming commission and

9 that you also attach a guidance document that says that

10 the tribe's gaming commission could verify every one of

11 these points that are necessary here. It is very

12 important that we not have this section, on behalf of

13 tribes, have a situation where the NIGC has to do an

14 evaluation because, if they do, you may be sued by

15 various citizen groups that are trying to slow us down

16 in our development. And, whereas, they can't sue the

17 tribes, they may be able to file a lawsuit against you

18 and drag you into federal court and delay our openings.

19 I have had this experience with Interior. I

20 agree that we need to fill up your file so you have this

21 verification. And their basis was that Interior didn't

22 do their background investigations, or any

23 investigations, and their -- because their file was

24 empty. And since the tribe wasn't a party, we couldn't

25 show them that all of this information had been done.

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1 And so I -- I agree you need the information.

2 But I think, if you're obtaining verification,

3 that you could obtain that verification from the tribal

4 gaming commission. And I think that if you had a

5 guidance document that said the tribe's gaming

6 commission could certify each of these elements that you

7 have and attach those so that your file would be

8 complete and full of these documents, you would not be

9 in a position that you made any decision that could

10 thereby cause you to be compelled to go into a federal

11 court.

12 And I hope I have made myself clear. If not,

13 well, then, have your legal counsel contact me

14 afterwards. I can give you specific examples where I've

15 had this problem with Interior having an empty file,

16 because Interior's relationship was, "We know all this

17 already." But they didn't have it in the file, this

18 document.

19 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you, Jess.

20 Any other thoughts?

21 Lieutenant Governor?

22 GOVERNOR GARCIA: Lieutenant Governor of the

23 Pueblo of Acoma.

24 I guess it's just more of a question. If NIGC

25 does go next door to Interior, and somebody does the

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1 verification of land-status rights on the information

2 that's submitted by a gaming tribe, or -- or is there no

3 communication there or --

4 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Well, a couple of years ago,

5 the NIGC and the Department of Interior turned in a

6 memorandum of understanding. And the NIGC details one

7 of our senior attorneys over to the Department of

8 Interior to work there on these issues.

9 Now, there are sort of legal questions sort of

10 pending about when the NIGC has to do these Indian land

11 determinations. And it's certainly something that

12 tribes want. They want -- especially if the lands are,

13 you know, newly-restored land purchased. It wasn't fee

14 and a trust out. There are a number of scenarios where

15 a tribe is interested in having the NIGC and the

16 Department of Interior make that determination that it

17 is Indian land eligible for gaming. And so we do work

18 with the Department on that. It can take some time

19 sometimes. Other times, it may not take that long at

20 all. But, again, there are sort of legal questions that

21 we're struggling with internally about when -- when do

22 we -- when do we make those Indian land determinations.

23 There has been some recent case law that is sort of

24 having impact on -- on when that trigger is.

25 GOVERNOR GARCIA: So going to -- I guess going

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1 one step further on the gentleman's question, does that,

2 at any point in time, impede a gaming tribe from opening

3 a facility? And are we -- are we waiting on you, or are

4 you waiting on us? I mean is that -- I mean we don't

5 want to get into that kind of game either.

6 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Practically, the implication

7 of a facility license regulation has meant that tribes

8 do wait. And they -- typically, they put in their

9 notice, give us our notice at 120 days, and they wait to

10 hear back from us. That's been the practical

11 implication of this, of the -- of the regulation.

12 However, the regulation doesn't say what happens. It

13 just says the tribe has to send us a facility license --

14 a facility license notification within 120 days. That's

15 the old regulation.

16 There's a new regulation, there's a new draft.

17 Section B, attempts -- our intent was, and we're --

18 when -- I think we need to rework it. Our intent is to

19 tell -- just to have the NIGC move it along. So if the

20 tribe needs or they want an Indian land determination,

21 that we don't sit on it, that we actually have a

22 regulation we can take over to the DOI and say, "Hey,

23 look. We need to get this thing moving," so that the

24 tribes aren't sitting around waiting for 120 days before

25 they can open their facility. We don't want to impede.

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1 So how do we -- we're trying to figure out how to do

2 that.

3 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: And that is the -- why

4 you see the recommendation that we go from 120 days to

5 60 days, only with a -- preserving, of course, the

6 Chair's discretion, if there's something that

7 necessitates going beyond that 60 days, that the Chair

8 has the ability to do that for situations which may have

9 their own individual unique issues.

10 GOVERNOR GARCIA: But if it's -- if it's a

11 pre-existing, and all we're doing is renewing the

12 facility, is -- there is no -- there is no break in

13 service, correct?

14 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: (Shakes head.)

15 Are there any other comments on this part?

16 MR. ROBERT GARCIA: Yes. My name is Robert

17 Garcia, and I'm on the San Felipe Gaming Commission. I

18 have a question on 559.6.

19 Is that necessary because you already -- we're

20 already providing the information on 559.4, and, in

21 part, on 551.1 already? Because 559.6, you're -- you

22 are requesting Indian lands or environment public health

23 and safety documentation requiring gaming place,

24 facility, or location where gaming will occur. We are

25 already providing that in the section above, in .4, and,

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1 also, in .1, so that my question is, again, "Is 559.6

2 necessary?"

3 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: In five -- in subsection

4 four, this is requiring that the tribe submit its own

5 facility license with its attestation. In subsection

6 six, this is preserving the Chair's right to ask for

7 documentation, specific documentation, regarding the --

8 the licensure.

9 So this would be -- the difference is, one,

10 we're taking the tribe -- the tribe has the right to

11 license, so we're accepting the license, plus the

12 attestation. If there is a situation that would

13 necessitate the Chair asking for additional

14 documentation because we've taken all of the

15 requirements out that currently are under subsection

16 three, this would preserve the Agency's ability to ask

17 the tribe for that documentation. That was the intent.

18 MR. ROBERT GARCIA: But the tribe has already

19 taken the necessary steps to ensure that, you know, the

20 land and the environment is already accounted for, and

21 the tribe has already submitted the necessary documents.

22 So is it really necessary for the Chair to continue to

23 ask for more documentation?

24 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: There wouldn't be any

25 documents required under four. It is purely the

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1 licensure, plus the attestation. And so that's what

2 that -- that's -- at least that's our intent, is to

3 eliminate the need for the documentation, the excess of

4 documentation that is currently provided for, and only

5 have it provided for if there is some situation that the

6 Chair, in his or her discretion, deems that we need to

7 look further into the licensure.

8 MR. ROBERT GARCIA: Can I -- I'll get -- can I

9 get with you afterwards to get more clarification on

10 this afterwards --

11 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Absolutely.

12 MR. ROBERT GARCIA: -- for more discussions?

13 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Absolutely.

14 MR. ROBERT GARCIA: I have a question.

15 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Uh-huh.

16 MR. ROBERT GARCIA: Does NIGC have an

17 environmental person on staff, an environmental person

18 that reviews environmental issues? I mean you're asking

19 for documentation on environmental. Do you have a

20 person on staff that looks at and reviews an

21 environmental impact statement, OSHA requirements?

22 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Yes. Well, part of the

23 discussion that has gone on in reaching the decision to

24 put out a discussion about that includes elimination of

25 all of those requirements because, yes, we do have an

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1 EPA person on staff, which I don't know if you've seen

2 that he has looked at things before he comes out and

3 does a lot of trainings.

4 But the Commission believes that we're not the

5 experts. We shouldn't be the experts. There is OSHA.

6 There is the EPA. There are tribal entities. I mean

7 there are many, many other entities that are experts in

8 these various areas, and we're not one of them.

9 So yes, we have a staff member, but that staff

10 member, we, right now, don't believe is the appropriate

11 person that should be reviewing this. This is, again,

12 why we put out that the attestation from the tribe --

13 after it consults with its experts is what we believe

14 will meet the requirements of the statute, not to

15 have us go in and second guess and to do our independent

16 review in areas where we do not have expertise.

17 Is there anybody out there that wants us to do

18 that?

19 All right. We're doing good.

20 Any other questions? I don't want to cut

21 off -- if somebody has a comment or a concern, I

22 certainly don't want to cut that off.

23 GOVERNOR GARCIA: I'm sorry. If I may make a

24 general statement?

25 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Absolutely.

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1 GOVERNOR GARCIA: You know, this is -- I

2 guess, maybe, the statement should have been made

3 earlier.

4 This is really ironic from the standpoint

5 that, you know, before I sat -- before I occupied this

6 current position, we never had true consultation.

7 During Mr. Phil Hogen's administration, it wasn't

8 consultation. It was meeting at each casino, and you

9 were given an hour's time, you know, to basically vent.

10 I think that it's really ironic. I mean

11 Albert and I know -- know one another, and we go way

12 back because that was the gist of how the consultation

13 was done. And so it's -- it really behooves somebody

14 like me, sitting in this capacity now, to try to provide

15 comments because how do you approach this issue because

16 it was never provided to you before? Now, I can deal

17 with it, the HHS. I can deal with IHS. I can deal with

18 the ACYF. But it's a -- it's a whole different issue,

19 you dealing with NIGC, because this was never bestowed

20 upon tribes. And so, you know, it's -- it's a

21 cat-and-mouse issue. And so I mean maybe that's why,

22 you know, we're not getting very -- a lot of comments

23 here.

24 But more so, I think the issue is it will be

25 helpful if we could go through the process, if not step

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1 by step, looking at each of what you're proposing.

2 And -- and I think that, you know, maybe that would be

3 helpful where we could because, again, like my question,

4 you're asking about environmental concerns. You're

5 asking about health issues. And your explanation was

6 no, we don't have a person that deals 100 percent of

7 their time looking at it. So is there a need for that

8 documentation? And maybe not.

9 Now, do you have a realty person on board?

10 Somebody that deals with land classification? Somebody

11 that can say, "Oh, Pueblo of Acoma, you've got township

12 ten north, range five west." Is that proper

13 demographics for the location of the facility? How else

14 are you not going to know, or may not know, unless you

15 have somebody like Mr. Vallo coming out to the property.

16 Of course, he can't come out to Acoma. But, again, you

17 know somebody like Mr. Billingsly coming out, unless you

18 have those kinds of individuals on staff that can

19 provide you, or the Commission, to verify to say, yes,

20 that that is a good facility license, by all means.

21 Otherwise, I think you're guessing from the perspective

22 that you're taking somebody else's opinion about land

23 classification, about environmentals, about health and

24 welfare issues.

25 Again, these are just my comments, per se.

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1 But, again, you know, without -- because this --

2 consultation was never really instilled upon the tribes.

3 Again, it was not anything Mr. Hogen initiated in his

4 tenure as Chairman of NIGC, except for what we initiated

5 at some training, an hour's time, et cetera.

6 Thank you.

7 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Well, I must say, if you

8 got an hour, you did well. I understand that many, many

9 places were down to 15 minutes.

10 Lieutenant Governor, it is kind of odd to sit

11 here in some respects, because I understand the history

12 of this Agency and its relationship with tribes. But

13 you have a Commission who is completely devoted to

14 doing, not only what the private executive order has

15 said will happen, but, also, we all come from Indian

16 country. We all -- we all understand the relationship

17 between the federal government and tribes. We also

18 understand that things have not been done well.

19 And so the things that we're doing now are an

20 attempt to bring this Agency into current practices, to

21 do the right thing, to hold consultations in a

22 meaningful manner. And some of the tribes are a

23 little -- they don't know what to do because it is new.

24 But I can tell you that the response that we're

25 receiving, both by tribal leaders showing up and

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1 talking, by their experts showing up and talking, by the

2 written comments, only confirms what we knew, which is

3 tribes will respond. They have a very active voice in

4 the process, as they should.

5 And the -- the proposals that you're seeing us

6 put out reflect the Commission's commitment to staying

7 within our lane. The Agency has very defined

8 authorities. We have, perhaps, over time, overstepped

9 those authorities. And we're trying to -- to be more

10 realistic because we have a very meaningful role in

11 gaming. And we are experts in certain things in gaming.

12 But we've exceeded those lanes. We've exceeded those

13 roles. And by pulling back and relying upon who we

14 believe to be the experts, which is where we're at now.

15 We're deferring to the experts. We'll accept the words

16 of the experts because we don't have the expertise.

17 And the same is true in some of the licensing

18 decisions that are made for the -- for employees, for

19 vendor licensing. These are things that we can do which

20 we believe meet our statutory obligations. IGRA is very

21 clear on what our obligations are. And this is the best

22 way we know how, through consultation, to -- to bring

23 our Agency into compliance, not only with what IGRA

24 says, with what the Executive Order 13,175 tells us we

25 should do on consultation. And we will walk through

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1 this process because we understand that this is a

2 different arena. We'll walk through with you the best

3 way we know how.

4 Thank you, Lieutenant Governor.

5 MR. GALLEGOS: I just need a point of

6 clarification. Manny Gallegos, Pueblo of Tesuque.

7 I made a note earlier that on part 559 that it

8 removes the requirement that every three years

9 notification or relicensing. Where is it, or where was

10 it? I have been looking this over, and I don't see the

11 section specifically dealing with that, where it was

12 deleted or omitted, or don't I have all of the 559

13 corrections?

14 MS. ECHO-HAWK: It was formerly -- it was

15 formerly part 559.3, how often must a facility license

16 be renewed. It said at least once every three years

17 after the initial issuance of a facility license, the

18 tribe shall renew or reissue a separate facility license

19 for each existing place, facility, or location on Indian

20 land for a tribe to be allowed gaming. And we struck

21 that part.

22 MR. GALLEGOS: Well, here -- I'm sorry. Here

23 it just -- I mean just as one thing, I'm talking about a

24 tribe must issue or a new facility. It doesn't say it's

25 deleted. The other part I -- I mean I see where, in

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1 other places, you have footnoted the deletions. It's

2 not here. That is why I was asking.

3 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Didn't they have a -- do

4 you not have a version of -- on tribe changes? Okay.

5 MS. ECHO-HAWK: We'll take a look at the

6 draft. We have made a lot of edits, which is why it is

7 multicolored. And that part might have been deleted

8 from a bubble, but we'll take a look at that. Thank

9 you. But it was formerly 559.3 in the -- in the current

10 regulation.

11 MR. GALLEGOS: Okay.

12 MR. GREEN: Jess Green, again.

13 559.6 is particularly the most egregious

14 section you have here because it implies that the Chair

15 can demand any piece of information it wants, and the

16 tribes have to go get it. 25 USC 2706(b)(1) through (4)

17 says you can come look at anything we have, but nothing

18 there says you can command us to go get stuff we don't

19 have. This implies that you can.

20 Moreover, keep in mind that we're talking

21 about a license footprint. You can only require us to

22 give you information about the license footprint. The

23 reason is that's the limitation of our gaming

24 commission's jurisdiction. Your jurisdiction and the

25 gaming commission's jurisdiction are simultaneous, and

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1 they cover the same area. You can't ask us about the

2 parking lot if it's not in the license footprint. And

3 while you might want to know where the sewage goes, if

4 it's not in the license footprint, the Commissioner

5 doesn't control it, nor does the tribe, for that point,

6 if they paid to dump it in somebody else's sewage

7 system. And to require them to go find out how the city

8 treats sewage, I don't think is an appropriate

9 requirement.

10 So if you leave 559.6 in, I think it needs to

11 be limited to the license location, and it needs to be

12 limited to the information that is on hand. And I think

13 we need to be very, very careful about giving the Chair,

14 at any point, the authority to demand, "Go get me

15 something," because that's going to be an area that we

16 have immense amounts of conflict.

17 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you, Jess.

18 What else?

19 Jess, are you going to put any of your

20 comments in writing to help this whole --

21 MR. GREEN: Probably not. You've got them

22 recorded.

23 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: So I have to go back and

24 listen over and over again?

25 MR. GREEN: No. Your staff -- your staff may

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1 call me at any time on this stuff.

2 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Okay. Thank you.

3 MR. GREEN: And I'll give you -- I will be

4 able to recite specific examples of why this has been a

5 problem in the past.

6 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you.

7 Anything else?

8 The final regulation that's put in this

9 section, as well -- we have not cut out a regulation

10 yet, although I'm sure there are many of you sitting

11 here who are familiar with how other agencies treat the

12 Buy Indian Act.

13 This was based on an internal review of how we

14 purchase things, how we spend our money. And it is also

15 based on underlying comments. And, again, to share with

16 you kind of our thought processes, it makes sense to us,

17 as commissioners, that we are -- since we are funded

18 entirely by tribal fees, that where we were able to, it

19 is appropriate for us to put these fees back into Indian

20 country to support the industry in a -- in a manner

21 that's meaningful. And this was consistent with the --

22 or with, even, the comments that came in on the NOI from

23 tribes was, "Yes, Agency, you should -- you should

24 implement something which requires you to -- to buy

25 Indian.

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1 We've looked at some potential provisions.

2 We've looked at what other regulations are out there

3 with IHS, with the IA, to try to see what they do, see

4 what is looking well.

5 There are some federal requirements that were

6 asked -- we've asked our auditors, we've asked our legal

7 people to look at, which dictate how we -- we follow

8 federal purchasing guidelines. So we want to make sure

9 that we don't get crosswired with anything that will --

10 will cause problems. So that's the whole debate that

11 we're taking, whether or not we should do the

12 regulation, whether or not it ought to be a policy.

13 And there is some concern that we may have to

14 do it by regulation, but we haven't worked through those

15 issues completely. But we wanted to open it up to the

16 tribes for comment because I suspect some of you have

17 some experience with this Act and the federal

18 government, and ask questions, whether or not we should,

19 whether or not there is an agency that, maybe, has Buy

20 Indian regulations or policies that you think work well,

21 whether or not there is something that, maybe, we ought

22 to be aware of that isn't working so well.

23 And so I open up the -- the floor for

24 comments.

25 There -- there was -- or there has been, in

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1 other consultations, questions about how this would

2 apply to the tribes. And -- and we want to be really

3 clear that this would be -- this would be something

4 imposed upon the Agency. This is how the Agency would

5 implement the Act, not any new requirements on tribes.

6 This -- this is only how we would do it.

7 Maxine?

8 MS. VELASQUEZ: Maxine Velasquez, Pueblo of

9 Tesuque.

10 February 8, 2011, we submitted our comments on

11 the Notice of Inquiry. We -- we discussed the Buy

12 Indian Act, and Pueblo Tesuque does feel a regulation

13 should be put in place, instead of a policy. And so

14 that's our position at this point, still is, has been.

15 And this would give -- make the -- the regulation

16 would -- basically gives preference to qualified tribe

17 folks to be able to deal with the NIGC on these issues.

18 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: We've looked at the -- as

19 far as the federal acquisition regulations, and we've

20 looked at that definition as to what would be a

21 qualified Indian-owned, and that seems to be standard

22 language that is used.

23 GOVERNOR GARCIA: Lieutenant Governor of the

24 Pueblo of Acoma.

25 But, as you say, this is -- this is really

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1 more for NIGC, not -- not imposed upon the gaming

2 tribes. My -- my comments, my recommendation would be

3 to take it out. If it is not applicable to the tribes,

4 the gaming tribes, then it doesn't apply. I think this

5 is something internally that would apply to you, NIGC.

6 But if you were to impose this upon the tribes, then I

7 would think that, not only would you include the Buy

8 Indian Act, you would include minority-owned business,

9 women-owned business provisions. You would employ

10 provisions under the Snyder Act. There are other

11 provisions, regulatory provisions, that you would have

12 to apply.

13 But I mean if this is something that's

14 applicable to only the Agency, then I think that's where

15 it should stay. I would not include this as part of a

16 provision that you want to pass on to gaming tribes

17 because I think we follow our own procurement provisions

18 relative to what we have locally with -- that -- that

19 tribes have established. And this isn't anything that's

20 federally funded. This is all revenue-generated.

21 So quite honestly, the tribal procurement

22 policies, procedures supersede whatever you have in

23 place. So I -- I would recommend you take it out.

24 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you.

25 Are there any other thoughts?

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1 MS. VELASQUEZ: Again, Maxine Velasquez,

2 Pueblo of Tesuque.

3 I just want to state this issue one more time.

4 I think it's really important to have a regulation on

5 this -- on this matter because IGRA is there to help the

6 tribal government's economic self-sufficiency. And when

7 we do this, tribal government and tribally-owned

8 businesses, we can put that money the tribes pay in fees

9 back into the pockets of Indian folks, whether it's the

10 government and/or tribally-owned individuals that have

11 computer companies, or whatever else they have. They're

12 going be able to help, you know, foster economic

13 development of Indian county. So I -- I really believe

14 that regulation should be in place. And it shouldn't be

15 a policy because that can change from administration to

16 administration. It should be a regulation.

17 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you.

18 All right. Anything else?

19 The final group or topic of this morning's

20 session was the Class III MICS. And as Lael pointed out

21 during her PowerPoint, we did ask the question, and

22 we're asking the question in group one of how we -- how

23 should we address the Class III MICS. We understand

24 that it impacts tribes, states, regions very

25 differently. That is becoming increasingly evident as

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1 we go throughout and consult on this.

2 We've heard, in general, just to overly

3 simplify that -- to give you a synopsis of the comments,

4 there has been a suggestion on -- that we replace 542

5 with recommended guidelines. There has been that we

6 address through agency tribal compacting processes the

7 MICS question, that we -- tribal ordinances

8 incorporating part 542 of the NIGC adjusting the fee

9 rates for those tribes. In other words, if you're going

10 to use the NIGC for Class II MICS, that you should --

11 that your fees should reflect the Agency's involvement

12 in this area. Maintaining part 542 is in the attached,

13 update the current regulation. And then, the other end

14 of the spectrum is to repeal the part in its entirety.

15 This, as most of you know, is going to be, and is, the

16 elephant in the room for us. This is the most

17 challenging part of, perhaps, the entire regulatory

18 review process that we will encounter.

19 There is currently discussion going on, and

20 what I bring to the table to you, now, is that we're

21 talking about, "How do we address this? How -- how,

22 tribes, do you want us to address this very challenging

23 issue?" The -- the current discussion really centers on

24 using the TAC again, a Tribal Advisory Committee. And I

25 know there's many of sitting you in here that have been

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1 involved in -- in other TACS with this agency. And the

2 thought is that we would find a way to use a TAC to

3 bring this issue to resolution collectively, with

4 representatives from the tribes, hopefully

5 expeditiously, because the footwork has really been

6 done.

7 You have the proposed revisions that have been

8 out that were provided during the last TAC. You have a

9 tribal gaming working group who has put together

10 proposed revisions and will put those out in the

11 public -- or have put those out in the public for

12 discussion. So you have those comments. But so we

13 really have a lot of the footwork that's already done.

14 It's a matter of finding a way to get us at the table

15 and in a manner which is meaningful, but also respects

16 limited resources, respects the limited time.

17 This Commission, it is absolutely committed to

18 getting this resolved one way or another before we

19 finish. It's been pending for too long. Tribes have

20 been left with uncertainty on this issue for too long.

21 And however we need to do it, we want this resolved

22 during our time, and so our time is limited.

23 And we know that there are some creative ways.

24 We've been talking about the concept of, rather than one

25 in the spectrum, having a group that is over -- overly

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1 large, perhaps unwieldy, trying to get a consensus

2 without real leadership coming from it, or the ability

3 to get consensus from a leadership prospective, all the

4 way to what you had under the Lang administration with

5 the committee being dominated by the Agency so that

6 we're sitting at the table, but not always interpreting

7 the tribal comments back into the proposed changes. So

8 we've got a spectrum there.

9 And one of things that are -- the ideas that

10 are being put out for discussion is, perhaps, using a

11 facilitative TAC, using a TAC which has a facilitator

12 which can set the ground rules for discussion, will help

13 keep the process moving, will find a way to get

14 resolution to those areas, maybe, where there isn't

15 consensus, but needs to be resolved, and move on.

16 And we want to know if you're interested in

17 this because it will require the Agency to very, very

18 promptly begin finding -- or putting the word out,

19 getting the group put together, finding space and time,

20 all of those things that the Agency would be required to

21 do in order to get something done in a manner which will

22 allow us to put out a proposed reg before we leave, if

23 that's -- if that's the way we go, or to do a bulletin,

24 if that's the decision that's made.

25 So that's what's on the table in this area.

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1 And that's what I wanted to hear from you, your

2 thoughts. Again, I know many of you have a lot of

3 experience in -- in this area, and what your interests

4 are to help us get this issue solved.

5 Albert, you have -- you have prior experience,

6 don't you? Don't you before?

7 MR. APODACA: Albert Apodaca.

8 I think that kind of meetings, I have never

9 participated.

10 I think that the -- what you just -- your

11 statement, I think, would work better because I mean

12 you're going from one extreme to another. And

13 personally, dealing from the gaming commission side, or

14 the gaming commission, it's real helpful to have the

15 Class III. I know there's some tribes that oppose, you

16 know, that, that sort of thing. But I think we have to

17 be mindful of the -- the political arena and how we're

18 viewed by the public and all of that. I'm sure that has

19 come up.

20 But I think a TAC that is facilitated, I think

21 that would be great. Now, the forming of the TAC is

22 another challenge within itself, who will serve on it,

23 and that sort of thing. But I think that's the best way

24 to go.

25 I -- I believe that tribes need, whether you

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1 want to call them guidelines or MICS, or whatever --

2 whatever term you put on them, I think they're needed, I

3 mean because we often have to -- at least it has been my

4 experience, sometimes we have to defend ourselves to

5 public -- to the public, and, maybe, officials, and that

6 sort of thing. And what do we fall back on?

7 I mean, you know, the common -- the comment

8 that we hear the most often is, "Well, you're the gaming

9 commission. You're part of the tribe, so it's

10 self-serving," right? Even though we may rule in favor

11 of the -- of the player or the public, or whatever the

12 case may be, that's always kind of the perception. If

13 you take that away, and if you can't point to the fact

14 that you've got a federal agency providing some

15 oversight, and that sort of thing, then I think it

16 weakens the credibility of the tribe and the gaming

17 comission, or the local tribal gaming regulatory

18 authority because I think it adds some -- some basis for

19 saying to the public, "Look. We're not only regulated

20 within, you know, the tribal gaming commission, the

21 local one."

22 But oftentimes, like we say in orientation, in

23 Vegas, you go in, and you go to the Clark County's

24 Sheriff Office, and you pass a background. And it's

25 kind of -- it's kind of superficial. I don't know if

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1 that's the correct word. And then -- but with -- but

2 with the gaming tribe, you have -- you know, you have

3 federal -- federal oversight, you have the State, and

4 then, you've got the tribe. So it -- that -- that's a

5 plus when you're talking to the public or other people

6 that -- even people that have applied for a gaming

7 license. This is how it works. This is why it is so

8 regulated. This is why -- and I think -- I think you

9 need that.

10 So I think having a TAC, again, that's

11 facilitated, I think that's going to be your best

12 approach. At least, that's my opinion.

13 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you.

14 MR. GREEN: I hate to take issue with you, but

15 I must.

16 In 2006 the CRIT case pointed out that in

17 regard to our compacting, which is quite -- which

18 includes our Class III, the NIGC didn't have any

19 business telling us what to do, that we -- we, as

20 sovereigns, could sit down with the State and work out

21 the details.

22 Now, that being said, at the -- at the same

23 time, there were a number of us that had worked out the

24 details by adopting 542. In other words, that's in our

25 compact. Almost all the tribes in Oklahoma, all of

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1 those compacts over there say that we're going to use

2 the NIGC's MICS that was in effect in November of 2005.

3 It -- it won't get updated because it's in our compact.

4 That's when we use it.

5 One of the things that your list of

6 alternatives omits is doing nothing. The NIGC has done

7 nothing since 2006 when -- when CRIT said, "You do not

8 have jurisdiction to do anything with the Class III

9 MICS." And the world hasn't come to an end. 542 is

10 still there, so we still have some standard to follow --

11 to follow.

12 If you spend some of my 20 percent money, I

13 might sue you if you do it for something that the CRIT

14 court said you don't have any jurisdiction over. And,

15 again, that would be very divisive. As you point out, a

16 number of tribes welcome this, and I -- I don't welcome

17 that kind of division.

18 542 is still there. And, again, a lot of the

19 tribes follow it because it is in their compacts. You

20 know, what we're in a quandary of is how to update it.

21 Again, nobody is debating that it was valuable

22 because -- and so we have adopted it. The issue is how

23 to update it.

24 If I -- I have issues with trying to invest

25 the NIGC with the authority to update it when tribes

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1 spend money pointing out, "You don't have jurisdiction

2 to interfere in our compact." And the more we approach

3 this topic, the more we -- we -- we churn up debate that

4 for five years has gone through Congress that, "Oh,

5 Indians are unregulated, and the sky's gonna fall."

6 We -- we've done a good job with what we

7 already have. I'm not saying we need to repeal 542.

8 Again, it's a good standard that's already been adopted.

9 And I'm not saying we don't need a mechanism to update

10 it. But I'm not sure that the NIGC, after CRIT,

11 provides that mechanism.

12 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you, Jess.

13 MR. ROYBAL: Edward Roybal, attorney for the

14 Ak-Chin Indian Community.

15 We want to echo what Jess just said. In

16 Arizona, our compacts, and others from Arizona can help

17 me out, also incorporate the MICS. And, again, CRIT was

18 very clear as to the statutory authority and reached the

19 NIGC. And in the year since, you know, the sky hasn't

20 fallen. We're okay.

21 So 542 is there, part of our compact. And I

22 think IGRA was clear, as well, that those regulatory

23 standards are left to tribes in the state compacting

24 process. And CRIT reaffirmed that.

25 So going forward, that is a question, I think,

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1 that is open, whether it's guidelines or leaving it to

2 those tribes in states that have compacts to do it that

3 way. But I think the CRIT -- the CRIT case was very

4 clear with your statutory jurisdiction, which -- and,

5 again, everything is still in place. Tribes are still

6 regulating their gaming operations without involving the

7 NIGC. So let's not create a fix where there is not this

8 impending problem to it.

9 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: May I ask, one of the

10 things that has come up in our discussions -- I'm

11 curious if it's happening here. How many, if any,

12 tribes that their auditors are auditing to the MICS?

13 Not the TICS, but the MICS?

14 MR. GREEN: The compact says we will.

15 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Well, the reason why I'm

16 asking, though, is because that's where most of the

17 consternation comes in. The questions -- what's been

18 happening in our agency, historically, is the -- there's

19 been resolutions to questions or disputes or issues by

20 reference to the proposed MICS, which is -- you know, I

21 don't know that's how the issue is being handled, but

22 that's -- that's why I'm asking the question. I want to

23 understand, you know --

24 Jess, go ahead. Speak up.

25 MR. GREEN: Jess Green again.

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1 MR. APODACA: Don't be bashful.

2 MR. GREEN: The standard is not at issue. We

3 all agree the standard is marvelous. The standard is

4 endorsed by our compacts, so we -- we test against it.

5 The issue is that CRIT says you're not the agency to

6 create those kinds of enforceable standards, and,

7 therefore, you don't have the ability to spend your

8 money to -- you know, to update it.

9 And, you know, my suggestion is that -- that

10 we might all have somebody like the National Tribal

11 Regulators Association form a task force to suggest

12 that, and, then, maybe send them over and say -- y'all

13 say, "Yeah, this would be great if we had the authority

14 to do this." And there are -- there are those kinds of

15 fringe concepts that we could come up with.

16 The issue remains that for you to spend money

17 in an area that a court has said you don't have

18 jurisdiction causes lawyers an immense amount of

19 problems, and causes those in Arizona to pay for that

20 litigation even more consternation.

21 And I do not want our message to Congress to

22 be "Fix IGRA," because I -- I don't think we need a fix.

23 We have a standard. What we need to do is figure out a

24 way to update our standards on it.

25 But we all -- all of us in Indian country can

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1 agree we need a method to update it, but I'm not

2 suggesting it has to be the NIGC. There are other

3 entities that could come up with that. And then, you

4 could simply sign off on that and say, "We've read it

5 and think it's a good standard," and endorse it. And

6 that would be the next standard that the next round of

7 compacts would endorse that we had to -- had to follow

8 to.

9 And, yes, we do audit to those because our

10 compact said we'd audit to -- to what was there in '05.

11 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Jess, can I -- can I ask you a

12 question?

13 I understand what you're saying. I think the

14 issue that we've been grappling with at the Commission

15 in our staff discussions, and, then, within the

16 Commission itself, is that's a great alternative. But

17 in five years, it hasn't been done by anyone outside the

18 Agency. And we're sort of in the hot seat because we do

19 have part 542 on the books. And everyone does look at

20 them as sort of the -- the governing or the guiding --

21 you know, the guiding light of all MICS throughout all

22 Indian country everywhere.

23 So while I think your suggestion is -- is a

24 good one and something that would be useful if it were

25 in place, the problem is there's no such thing. And to

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1 my knowledge, there is no such group that has decided to

2 do something like that since 2006. And there's nothing

3 that the NIGC can do to sort of make that happen.

4 So within sort of the umbrella of the

5 authority that we have, what is it that we can do in

6 order to meet the industry -- you know, meet the needs,

7 address the issues, the need for updated technology, all

8 of the -- all of the things that we know need fixed

9 within the current MICS. How do we do that given the

10 NIGC's limited -- limited role in that? Not to put the

11 ball back in your court, but --

12 MR. GREEN: Don't put me on the spot.

13 There are other tribal attorneys my age that

14 will point out to you very quickly that all you did is

15 copy the suggestion we already made. And you know to

16 whom I'm referring. She's real pointed when she's in

17 the room that she wrote most of the MICS that -- that

18 you have adopted, and that tribes adopted them.

19 I think, to this point, the reason tribes have

20 not moved forward is, as I said, the tribes in Oklahoma

21 don't have any real huge interest because we're locked

22 from 2005 until our compact comes back up. Those of you

23 who are looking to modernize your casino and want to get

24 rid of some of the problem in the older MICS, certainly,

25 we need another entity to -- to sponsor it so we can

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1 advance it and move it forward.

2 And while you point out that no entity has

3 stepped up, the discussions still continue. And I would

4 suggest that an entity that might well do that would be

5 the National Tribal Regulators Association. All it

6 would take is someone that is a member of that

7 association to say, "This is critical. We need to have

8 a meeting," and I think you could probably get a

9 committee that would go through it for you.

10 MR. APODACA: I have to disagree because --

11 and I'm not -- and I'm one that wants to keep government

12 out so -- but because I -- I mean I believe what

13 sovereignty means, right?

14 But here's the deal: If we're going through

15 the National Tribal Gaming Regulators Association, or we

16 go through another one, we're going to be paying double.

17 We're already paying the NIGC fees. What are we getting

18 in return for that, right? And I -- I understand

19 that -- the legal thing about, "Well, if we're paying

20 for it, for something they don't have jurisdiction

21 over." But in this case, I would like to have it more

22 a -- like not a regulation like in the true sense, more

23 of like a guideline, that type of thing.

24 And I don't want to -- if I'm a tribe, I don't

25 want to pay double. I don't want to pay one of our

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1 employees, or several employees with the National Tribal

2 Gaming Regulators Association, to go travel and do all

3 of that when I'm already -- we're already paying NIGC.

4 So that's kind of the issue there.

5 I mean I -- I agree with the CRIT. And I'm --

6 fully, fully agree with that. But -- but I think

7 that -- that, you know, we have to understand their

8 position, our position, too, from financial and the

9 ability to participate, are we going to be -- or have

10 that ability to participate in the National Tribal

11 Gaming Regulators, because you're going to run into the

12 same problems that the NIGC is going to run into with

13 the TAC. You're going to have the same thing with the

14 National Tribal Gaming Regulators, or any other group

15 that you try to do that with.

16 And for me, it's kind of a natural thing.

17 I -- but I -- I agree. I think it's a question of

18 updating 542, and -- and then adopting that and

19 accepting that. So good luck.

20 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Well, the discussion up

21 here is -- again, it's part of a microcosm. We hear

22 different views out of the Northwest. We hear different

23 views. California tribes have a very clear perspective

24 on this issue. And it -- you know, so this is what the

25 Agency is facing. I welcome the debate.

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1 Well, I hate to be anyone who stands between

2 you and your food, so I -- unless there's a comment that

3 needs to be made before lunchtime, which I want to make

4 sure, is there anything that -- we'll break for lunch.

5 We'll resume at 1:30. And we will go through the next

6 group or two, which ought to be the lawyers' bailiwick,

7 in group four this afternoon.

8 So enjoy your lunch.

9 (Luncheon Recess.)

10 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Well, I did my best to

11 try to start on time, but, again I'm behind. Almost.

12 Welcome back from your lunch. I hope it was

13 good. And thank you for joining us again this

14 afternoon.

15 I'm going to turn it over to Lael. Lael,

16 again, will walk us through an introduction for this set

17 of these regs in this group. And we'll do like we did

18 this morning. We'll start through them one by one.

19 So, Lael, I turn it over to you.

20 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Okay. So this afternoon,

21 we're going to be -- the first part this afternoon,

22 we're going to be reviewing group two, which group two

23 covers part 573, which we do have a discussion draft

24 available for you -- it was on the table -- a handout.

25 And then, the remaining four sessions are --

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1 all have to do with proceedings before the Commission.

2 So if you are in appeals of some kind, that's what those

3 -- those particular parts cover. We don't have a draft

4 for those just yet, but I anticipate that we will have

5 one by the end of the week for you to review.

6 So part 573, which is the enforcement

7 provisions, we heard -- we heard a number of comments

8 from tribes. And this Commission is -- I think you

9 heard this morning in our discussion on the ticket

10 system and then with the facility licensing, the

11 Commission is very committed to compliance and assuring

12 that tribes have the opportunity to come into compliance

13 before a notice of violation or an enforcement action is

14 taken.

15 So the discussion draft in part 573 -- this is

16 on the first page of your draft -- it adds that

17 voluntary compliance is a goal of the Commission. And

18 that's in the first, and that included that, and that's

19 573.1.

20 What that draft also does is it outlines a

21 pre-enforcement action process. So in -- what they --

22 what this process is designed to do is to notify the

23 tribe, through a letter of concern, or a letter of

24 noncompliance, or noncompliance notice, if -- if the

25 Agency sees that there are some issues that need to be

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1 resolved.

2 So in the case where the tribe -- where the

3 tribe -- where the Agency sees that there's an issue, it

4 might be a compliance issue, they would issue a letter

5 of concern and indicate where the possible violation

6 could be.

7 In the situation where the Agency sees that

8 the tribe is not in compliance, it would issue a

9 noncompliance notice and say, "This is the issue that

10 needs to be resolved," and provide some -- some

11 mechanisms and suggestions on how to -- on how to

12 resolve that issue. Now, this is all contained in

13 573.2. It's a new section.

14 Important to note, and it says -- it's noted

15 in the discussion draft of this pre-enforcement -- these

16 pre-enforcement proceedings are not final Agency action

17 and that time frames may be provided in the notice or in

18 the -- in the letter of concern. If the recommended

19 corrective action isn't taken, so if the tribe doesn't

20 come into compliance, then in that scenario, the Agency

21 may have no choice but to move forward with a notice of

22 violation.

23 Additionally included in this section is that

24 this pre-enforcement action doesn't limit or constrain

25 the Chair's discretion to issue a notice of violation in

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1 this situation. We included this section in there for

2 situations that are particularly egregious, and -- and a

3 notice of violation or temporary closure order needs to

4 be issued as soon as possible.

5 This discussion draft, the written comment

6 period closes on August 9th, and we look forward to your

7 comments.

8 The second part of the -- the second part --

9 the second group of regulations included in this group

10 all have to do with proceedings before the Commission.

11 The Notice of Inquiry asked tribes whether we

12 should review these particular parts. We've received a

13 lot of concerns, a lot of comments from tribes,

14 including concern about the formal process being more

15 burdensome and -- and may delay review; that -- that any

16 rules that we put forward should guarantee due process;

17 and that the rules needed to be consolidated because

18 they're kind of scattered throughout the regulations.

19 And we heard comments that -- that providing the

20 official proceedings should be eliminated, and, perhaps,

21 adding, I think one more hearing option for ordinance

22 and management contract appeals.

23 We had a number -- a number of other comments,

24 and we continue to hear them that, you know, sometimes

25 these appeals kind of go into this black hole that is

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1 the NIGC and that there needs to be some resolution. If

2 the tribe files an appeal, you know, you can

3 conceivably -- I mean we've seen things as old as five

4 years that have been sitting in front of the Commission.

5 And there needs to be an answer. There needs to be some

6 time frames for the Commission to respond. There needs

7 to be some certainty provided to tribes in how the

8 process works.

9 And so internally, we're looking at these

10 regulations, and, again, hope to have a draft out by the

11 end of this week. And, hopefully, the goal is that we

12 lay out a process that is clear, that meets the needs of

13 tribes, that is transparent, that provides the due

14 process that -- that tribes have been requesting and

15 looking for.

16 So with that, I will turn it back over to the

17 Vice Chair.

18 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you, Lael.

19 These particular group -- or this particular

20 group of sections seem to make a lot of sense together,

21 and I'm glad that we grouped them in this way.

22 In part 573, there is, as Lael pointed out,

23 what I think is one of more important aspects of what

24 this Commission can leave behind as far as leaving our

25 policy statement, and that is to include in this section

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1 a very clear statement to the effect that we do seek,

2 first and foremost, voluntary compliance before we go to

3 the enforcement proceedings. We do feel very strongly

4 that that is our significant concern for this

5 Commission, as reflected in our training and technical

6 assistance activities, as reflected in our consultation

7 activities. It's reflected in just about everything

8 that we do. And so I'm very pleased to see that

9 we've -- we've taken it and done -- put this goal, or

10 this objective, into our regulations.

11 The provisions that allow for the issuance of

12 a notice of noncompliance, again, is an attempt to

13 implement that objective, which is to bring out into the

14 discussion that we believe, as an agency, there is an

15 issue of noncompliance, or a potential issue of

16 noncompliance, and work with the tribe very closely to

17 figure out how we can best address the concerns that we

18 have.

19 These would not be final Agency actions. They

20 are something that we intend to make a mechanism which

21 will allow us to, hopefully, avoid further enforcement

22 proceedings and to restrict enforcement proceedings to

23 those areas that we think are really what the statute

24 was designed to get at, and not to get at issues where

25 we can work with the tribe to correct something.

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1 Are there any comments that you want to offer

2 regarding the concept itself? Do you think it's a good

3 idea? Do you think it's a bad idea? Do you think it

4 would be helpful?

5 One of the notations that I've made into this

6 section that was part of the conversation that we've had

7 in other areas of the country had to do with 573.2,

8 subsection (c), on page one, line 38, where there has

9 been a request that we consider spelling out what the

10 time period would be, so that, again, the tribe knows

11 what's expected. We know what we are looking for, too,

12 and, again, to bring more clarity to the process. And I

13 thought that was a -- a very good suggestion.

14 Okay. Jess?

15 MR. GREEN: With regard to -- in regard to --

16 Jess Green again.

17 In regard to 573.2(d), I appreciate that you

18 put all of these other sections in, which tend to give

19 us a notice opportunity, but you took it all away with

20 (d) when you said that the Chair had discretion to

21 ignore all of those things.

22 And in the past, I have been the recipient of

23 an NOV when I had a request for government-to-government

24 communication about an issue pending. The last time I

25 checked, the NIGC spoke of all government-to-government

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1 communications. Lots of times, tribes know that there's

2 an issue, and they would like to sit down and discuss it

3 to see if there is a way, other than an NOV, that it can

4 be resolved. And in the circumstance that I had, the

5 NOV got issued. And it was later withdrawn, but it was

6 still issued. And that, in and of itself, carries

7 connotations that get bantered about in the tribal

8 political world, as well as elsewhere.

9 And I would -- I would like a provision that

10 if the tribe has made a government-to-government

11 request, that the Chair can't issue a NOV. Now, you may

12 expedite the government-to-government communication

13 process so it is the next day. I don't mind that

14 happening. But I don't want to put my request in at

15 3 o'clock and get my NOV at 5:00 because I drew

16 attention to a topic that I knew there was some issue

17 about.

18 Now, I've had that happen. It's not fair to

19 the government leaders that were trying to resolve the

20 issue. And, quite frankly, I've seen chairs of the NIGC

21 that thought they were on their way out do this. And

22 it's not fair to the tribal political process.

23 So if you are able to delay the Chair so we at

24 least get an opportunity to visit, I -- I think there

25 wouldn't be an NOV issued.

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1 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Jess, I think that's a

2 valid concern, and I think it's something that we can

3 certainly think about. I'm trying to recall a

4 conversation that we had internally. And I can see this

5 being a complete -- or this being separate from issues

6 involving temporary closures, which may require

7 immediacy, depending on, you know, that --

8 MR. GREEN: I mean a notice of violation is

9 different than a temporary closure order. You've got a

10 list of requirements. Again, you don't need those. I'm

11 not suggesting that that's impeded in any way.

12 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Right. So that's --

13 MR. GREEN: I do not want my request for

14 government-to-government communications about a topic

15 with one of my elected leaders to cause an NOV to be

16 issued --

17 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Right.

18 MR. GREEN: -- so it can be done before the

19 meeting. I don't think that's good for communications

20 with tribal leadership. I would also --

21 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Would you -- I'm sorry,

22 Jess.

23 Would you be willing to submit some language

24 in to that effect? And the reason why I'm asking is

25 because it does open up -- I've got a friend that will

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1 not leave me alone.

2 It -- it opens up, I guess, a potential for

3 further discussion about what does that mean if -- if

4 the Agency -- if we were to -- if the chair's discretion

5 to issue an NOV were restricted by a request to consult,

6 what, then, constituted reasonableness or due process

7 under that? Like what you were saying, if they were to

8 say, "This is a serious situation. We want to consult

9 within the next 72 hours," and the tribe says, "That's

10 not reasonable" is -- I'm asking for -- looking to you

11 for guidance on what you would think a reasonable

12 process might be in that situation.

13 MR. GREEN: Well, the situation I had, I made

14 the request at 3:30, and then I get the NOV at 5:00

15 because the Chairman wanted to make a pre-emptive

16 strike. And I had a tribal leader that was very upset

17 that there was not a communication, because if there had

18 been a communication, there would have been no NOV. You

19 know, if --- if something had -- if it been communicated

20 that you really want it done this way, and you're really

21 that serious, it would have stopped without it. But it

22 would not have allowed the Commissioner to set the

23 signpost for the rest of the world.

24 And that's -- but I've got a -- I've got a

25 tribal leader that was pointed enough to want to make

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1 the request and inquire. And instead, it's -- all it

2 did was attract all the attention.

3 MS. ECHO-HAWK: I hear what you're saying,

4 Jess, and it may be something we should look at, the

5 consultation policy, as well. I'm trying to think here,

6 though, how we can modify this particular section to

7 address that concern.

8 The -- the intent and -- you know, we think we

9 wrote this perfectly. We thought we had written

10 everything, every draft regulation, perfectly. Clearly,

11 we haven't.

12 Is there a way we can qualify this section so

13 that if -- I'm thinking two things. Number one, every

14 tribe will then submit a request for consultation and

15 could delay situations that need to happen ASAP. That's

16 the concern here, is that if there is some sort of

17 egregious scenario where the -- the Agency needs to act

18 immediately, then we need to be able to do that without

19 having a tribe in, you know, Alabama or Montana fly all

20 the way out to DC because -- because that could take

21 some time. And there are scenarios where we just simply

22 don't have that time.

23 Is there a way that we can qualify this,

24 perhaps by including some sort of language that says,

25 "Only if these -- if these certain procedures don't

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1 work, or there is not enough time, or extraordinary

2 circumstances," or something like that, that might

3 modify this, but still give the Chair the flexibility?

4 MR. GREEN: I do not have a problem with the

5 Chair -- with the Chair's restriction being limited to

6 72 hours, that he can accelerate that. I mean if you're

7 contemplating an NOV, even if I initiate the first

8 communication, I have no problem with the Chair saying,

9 "Well, then, you've got to be up here and visit with me

10 within 72 hours. That's the only way I'm not going to

11 issue it." I have no problem with that. But I would

12 like that opportunity, if tribal leadership has

13 initiated the request first, to have a telephone

14 conference, if nothing else.

15 I just don't think it's fair to tribal

16 leadership, when you initiate the request, and then your

17 response back is an NOV. I mean you thought enough to

18 say, "I think we might have a problem. I want to talk

19 to you about it, and I want to know how serious it is,"

20 and -- and the response back is you get an NOV notice.

21 And let's keep in mind what an NOV is. It's a

22 piece of paper. Nothing really happens if I don't

23 choose to stop. You have to issue me a closure order

24 for something to happen. You know, it may increase my

25 fine if I keep doing it. But we have had tribes

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1 continue to operate even with closure orders.

2 So again, keep in mind you're just sending

3 pieces of paper. And, you know, most of the time, you

4 depend on voluntary compliance. If you evaluate how

5 effective your piece of paper is, it's much more

6 effective if you have a consultation.

7 And -- and so I'm not trying to -- to say that

8 paper is not upgradable, but I am suggesting that if

9 there has been a request for a consultation prior to

10 issuance, that some time in the next 48 to 72 hours you

11 get that opportunity to at least communicate.

12 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you, Jess.

13 MR. GREEN: I have a comment on 573.3, as

14 well, (a).

15 It says, "The Chairman may issue a notice of

16 violation to any person." You don't have jurisdiction

17 over any person.

18 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Jess, it's a defined

19 term. I had the same issue. It's defined --

20 (Discussion off the record between

21 panel members.)

22 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Give us just a moment

23 because I had the same question. And the "person" is

24 actually a defined term.

25 MR. GREEN: If -- if it is, then I'm -- I'm

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1 sorry I brought the point out.

2 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Well, but I want to make

3 sure, Jess, that what I'm thinking of applies to this

4 section, as well, so that we're consistent.

5 And under 571.2, "person" means "an individual

6 Indian tribe, corporation, partnership, or other

7 organization or entity." That's under -- okay. And it

8 may be under statute. But we'll tag it and look at it.

9 MR. GREEN: All right. And again, we're on

10 the same wavelength on these issues.

11 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Absolutely.

12 Are there any other comments?

13 Yes.

14 MR. GALLEGOS: Manny Gallegos, Pueblo of

15 Tesuque.

16 Under 573.2(c), I have a little problem with

17 the words that -- under -- which says "may provide a

18 time period" when you're issuing either your letter of

19 concern or a noncompliance notice. Does that mean that

20 if the Chair decides that there will be no time period,

21 that that letter of noncompliance becomes fixed, or

22 should it say "will contain a time period for responding

23 to comply"?

24 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Ask me your question

25 again.

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1 MR. GALLEGOS: You know, it's just the word

2 "may." I have a little problem with the word "may" in

3 there. It says "either action or subsection (b) may

4 provide a time period," because that means if the Chair

5 decides not to put any time period, then what good is

6 sending that notice out?

7 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: That is exactly, as I was

8 saying earlier, the conversation that we had about the

9 tribes requesting that we spell out the time period for

10 that --

11 MR. GALLEGOS: Or just put "will contain" --

12 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: "Will" contain, yeah.

13 MR. GALLEGOS: -- or something to that effect,

14 because --

15 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Yeah. Yeah.

16 MR. GALLEGOS: -- otherwise, I mean it says

17 "it may," and I think I just get a notice, and then I

18 have to comply, so what is the voluntary compliance at

19 that point?

20 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Right. That's an

21 excellent observation. Thank you.

22 MR. GALLEGOS: Thank you.

23 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Any other comments?

24 The next four parts are really for our

25 attorneys, I think. This -- part 519 deals with

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1 service; 524, appeals; 539, appeals, as well; and part

2 577 is also on appeals.

3 In these revisions that we put out for

4 discussion, the intent was to, first of all, clarify a

5 formal appeals process. The one that the Agency had

6 been operating under left a lot of uncertainty in many

7 areas. And in some places, it just wasn't addressed.

8 And then, the second thing was we were --

9 instructed our staff to draft it in such a way that

10 would ensure some due process into the system because

11 our experience, again, had been that the Agency's

12 choices in how to handle certain appeals may not have

13 resulted in a fair process to the tribes. So that was

14 kind of the overarching theme, or the overarching theme.

15 And in these various sections in 519, we did

16 include the service to extend to how we serve on --

17 under the late fees, if that provision is accepted and

18 put into regulation form. That's included in there so

19 that it would clarify that it would cover all civil-type

20 assessment that the Agency engages in.

21 We, also, at the request of the tribes, are

22 suggesting a provision that would remove service by fax

23 for official determinations, notices of assessments,

24 orders, or NOVs, but allowing for fax service of

25 subsequent documents. And this, again, was comments

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1 that came in from the tribes saying, "This is not the

2 best method. You need to reach us personally. To do so

3 by fax is not the best method. We want you to do it in

4 a way that reaches us directly."

5 It does add for service of registered or

6 certified mail, return receipt requested. It kind of

7 surprised me that that wasn't in the original one.

8 That's been common practice in service statutes for a

9 long time. And then, also, in order to try to take

10 advantage of technology, and to be a little more

11 sensitive to the cost of producing and mailing. And

12 519.3 does add in service by e-mail for documents

13 subsequent to the official determinations, notices of

14 assessment, and orders.

15 So in other words, once we've made direct

16 one-on-one contact with the tribe or with its

17 representative to serve them, and after that, if the

18 parties agree, service by e-mail may be an inappropriate

19 way to serve subsequent documents. So this is kind of

20 straightforward. Like I said, this is attorneys' fodder

21 for discussion.

22 But does anybody have any thoughts or

23 choose -- you don't want us to go that way?

24 Good. All right. Moving on.

25 MR. WEST: We have -- we have a comment.

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1 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Oh, we have a comment.

2 Jess, even on 519?

3 MR. GREEN: It has to do with appeals.

4 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Okay.

5 MR. GREEN: I would like for a section that --

6 to be added that deals with recusals.

7 When a commissioner participates in the

8 submission of an issue, I would like for that

9 commissioner to be recused from hearing the appeal.

10 I have had the experience of having the Chair

11 that set up the case have the opinion written before the

12 case was ever submitted. And there was only one other

13 commissioner there, therefore, the Chair would have been

14 able to get a ruling in his favor.

15 It is not appropriate for the trier of fact to

16 participate in the submission, make the ruling, and then

17 participate in the appeal in any forum I've ever been

18 in.

19 MS. ECHO-HAWK: That is something that we've

20 talked about internally and heard a number of comments

21 on, particularly, in the situation that you bring

22 forward, and that is, "When there is not a full

23 Commission, what happens?" And we've tried -- we're --

24 we're looking at -- we're working on the draft. When

25 you see the draft, I hope that you'll have some

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1 comments.

2 But one of the things that we -- we didn't

3 think about a -- a separate recusal provision, and that

4 might be something that we should look at. But we did

5 go into the statute. The statute defines the Commission

6 as the Chair, the Vice Chair, and the Associate

7 Commissioner.

8 So we can't -- you know, we -- there's a lot

9 of comment that said you need to include a section that

10 says the Chair can't participate in any appeals because

11 the Chair is, essentially, the prosecutor and brings it

12 forward. So we've tried to put in some mechanisms

13 whereby, when the appeal is before the whole Commission,

14 that the Chair isn't standing up there prosecuting,

15 going back and forth, back and forth, and then coming

16 back around on the other side of the bench and making a

17 ruling.

18 I hope that we've addressed your concerns.

19 And I wish we had the draft ready. It will be ready

20 soon. But we really look forward to your comments on

21 that particular issue. We've tried to do the best we

22 can to resolve it because it is a very, very important

23 issue to tribes. It's one we've heard over and over

24 again.

25 MR. GREEN: Well, it's a recusal issue. I

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1 don't mind a commissioner realizing there's a problem

2 and encouraging somebody to the bring it forward. But

3 when it gets to the appeal, that -- that commissioner,

4 particularly for the Chair, needs to back out and let

5 the other people make the decision because there is

6 nothing fair about somebody bringing the issue forward,

7 making the original decision, and then, as you point

8 out, making the decision on appeal.

9 MS. ECHO-HAWK: The problem is the language of

10 the statute that says that appeals go before the

11 Commission. This is after the Chair brings it forward.

12 So we've tried to in -- in the draft -- because there's

13 sort of two -- this sort of goes two ways. One, the --

14 the person, the tribe, or whoever, bringing the appeal

15 can go before a presiding official, hold a quasi-like

16 administrative hearing. The presiding official then

17 presents their decision, recommendation for decision to

18 the Commission, and they sign off on it.

19 In the alternative, there is the situation

20 where there is the appeal on a written submission

21 straight to the Commission itself. In that scenario,

22 we've tried to limit what the -- what the Commission --

23 what the Chair does, how they participate, so there's

24 not this back and forth motions here, motions there.

25 And then, the Chair, you know, is making a motion, and

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1 it goes back around, and rules on his own motion. So we

2 tried to resolve some of that. But we will consider the

3 recusal section, or look at that, and see how, maybe,

4 that might be worked in.

5 MR. GREEN: Again, that does not affect the

6 statute, the fact that you point out that there is

7 prejudice because they participated in the original

8 submission, even if he made the decision. The recusal

9 lets you have a mechanism that is in writing that --

10 that requires, or lets, somebody be pulled off. I do

11 not know of a state judiciary that does not have some

12 kind of recusal rules because once you get involved, if

13 there aren't some rules, it's really hard for someone to

14 back out from participating in a decision.

15 And if you had that in the appellate

16 section -- again, I'm not suggesting a closure because

17 the Chair does make those initial decisions under the

18 statute. But if you had that in the appellate section,

19 we would not have the problem that we've previously had.

20 Thank you.

21 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: I think, included along

22 with that, Jess, though, would have to be, also, some

23 provisions which allow or address situations where you

24 end up with something less than the full Commission, and

25 final decisions getting static, although I know we

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1 talked about this internally, about getting -- getting

2 something into the regulations which say, "If the

3 Commission cannot go any further -- any further, then it

4 becomes a final Agency action once the Chair has taken

5 action," allowing the tribes to move the -- the decision

6 on.

7 And this would probably be one of these areas

8 where we would have to look at it, as well, because if

9 you've got one commissioner already recusing, down to

10 two, and if, for some reason, you lose another one, for

11 whatever reason, you've got nowhere to go.

12 And recusals are not uncommon. We, as

13 commissioners, are recused. I'm recused from the

14 Chickasaw Nation. I'm recused from Pojoaque for ethical

15 reasons. But it's the same kind of concept.

16 I'm just looking through my notes to see if

17 there is particularized questions I want to put out

18 there.

19 One of the things that came up during our

20 discussions with the attorneys in the Agency, when we

21 were looking at the appellate process, is some real, in

22 my opinion, unclear language saying, "If this happens,

23 this is your appellate right. If this happens, this is

24 your appellate right," and making sure that we clearly

25 give the tribes understanding of are they going before

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1 the Commission? Are they going before a private

2 presiding official? What, exactly, under what

3 circumstance are they going to be able to exercise as an

4 appellate right.

5 And we've been working on those and asked the

6 attorneys to come up with some clear language so that

7 general counsels and all attorneys spend their time in

8 gaming full time. I know that, as a former general

9 counsel, you're a jack of all trades. And they may have

10 to dip their toe into gaming on a case-by-case basis.

11 So our rules should be very clear to tell your attorneys

12 that -- exactly what they need to do when there is an

13 appellate issue because, also, as you know, with any

14 appellate issue, if you don't exercise that right within

15 a certain amount of time, that right is -- is waived.

16 So I know that we've been clear with the attorneys to

17 get some language that walks you through that process in

18 a manner that -- that's very clear.

19 All right. If there is no other questions, I

20 am going to ask Lael to go ahead and walk us through and

21 introduce us to group four, and then we'll take our

22 break and just go right into a discussion.

23 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Okay. So group four covers a

24 number of things, primarily having to do with licensing

25 and background, background being with our primary

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1 management officials, key employees, and management

2 contractors.

3 The Notice of Inquiry asked whether or not we

4 should formalize what has been commonly called the

5 "pilot program." Well, the pilot program has been

6 around for, oh, several years, so it's no longer a pilot

7 program. And about 99 percent of tribes participate in

8 this program or in this -- in this process, which, to be

9 very concise, it basically allows the tribe to simply

10 submit a notice of results of background information of

11 the background investigation for key employees and

12 primary management officials. Instead of sending us

13 piles and piles of paperwork and documents, you fill out

14 this form that is a "Notice of Results," submit it to

15 us, and we take a look at it, and -- and object or not

16 object.

17 We asked tribes whether we should consider

18 putting in some regulations. It was unanimous that --

19 that we should. And so generally, one of the people

20 that worked on formalizing this -- this process -- and

21 we formalized it into two -- two regulations, part 556

22 and part 558, which are in your handouts. We divided

23 the parts into two, so in part 556 you have all of the

24 procedures that happened prior to the tribes issuing a

25 license to the employee.

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1 Now, this is important because once a tribe

2 has issued the license, if there is -- for some reason,

3 the Agency has an objection to that particular

4 individual or has a concern about their background

5 information, once the license has been issued, that

6 person, then, is entitled to a notice and a hearing. So

7 we try to draw a line because that same right is not

8 available to a licensee or an applicant for a licensee

9 until the license has actually been issued. So 556

10 covers everything before the license has been issued.

11 558 covers everything after.

12 So a tribe seeking to license for a key

13 employee or a primary management official has to notify

14 the Agency of the applicant's background results within

15 60 days after the applicant begins work. We also

16 included in here a mechanism for tribes who -- say --

17 say an employee, a key employee or primary management

18 official works at the Pueblo of Sandia, and then decides

19 they want to come over and work for the Pueblo of

20 Pojoaque. The Pojoaque licensing agency, or the person

21 in charge of the licensing, calls Sandia and says, "Hey.

22 Do you have the background? Do you have this guy's

23 background results?" And they say, "Yes." "Send it

24 over." Well, we've now included in the regulation

25 mechanism where all the Pueblo of Pojoaque would have to

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1 do is update that information and then send us a notice

2 of results, instead of having to do all the work again.

3 So hopefully, it makes life a little bit easier for

4 tribes and -- and not have to duplicate effort and

5 expense.

6 Everything contained in the -- in most of --

7 well, the first couple of pages, the first three pages

8 of the -- of 556 are the same. The section I was

9 talking about is on page four, line four. And you can

10 see we have in the -- in comments where we've moved

11 things around from and included elsewhere.

12 So once the tribe has -- has issued the

13 notice, has -- and has submitted the notice of results,

14 the -- and we move on to part 558. So within the --

15 once the notice of results have been submitted to the

16 Agency, the NIGC has 30 days to respond to the tribe

17 about -- about the information that is received.

18 Now, we have -- as an agency, we have 30 days

19 to either say, "This person is good to go," or we have

20 30 days to object. And this is 30 days within the --

21 and we changed some of the words -- within the

22 complete -- within the receipt of the complete notice of

23 results. So if the Agency sees that there's just -- the

24 information isn't all there, that's not a complete

25 notice of results, we send it back. The 30 days hasn't

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1 begun to run. It doesn't begin to run until the

2 complete notice of results has been submitted.

3 So after providing the notice of results, the

4 tribe can license the key employee or primary management

5 official, and -- and the tribe has to also notify the

6 tribe of the licensee -- of the license issuance. This

7 is a little glitch that we found in the -- in the pilot

8 program where the pilot program didn't necessarily match

9 up with the statute.

10 The statute requires the tribe to not -- not

11 only notify the NIGC of the background investigation

12 results, but, also, that they've issued a license. And

13 it's not something that we did regularly. It was kind

14 of an oversight on our part. And we've included it,

15 now, in the regulations.

16 This is a little bit of a difference than what

17 you've seen previously, and we're trying to think of

18 ways that we can decrease, since you are submitting --

19 sending two submissions, two notices to the NIGC,

20 hopefully, through electronic means or some other

21 database or mechanism -- we can sort of mitigate how --

22 how burdensome that is. Hopefully, it's just an e-mail

23 or, you know, an online form you fill out notifying the

24 NIGC of license issuance.

25 So upon the receipt of a complete notice of

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1 results, the NIGC can either request additional

2 information -- but it -- but in any situation, the NIGC

3 has to either object or not object within 30 days.

4 If the NIGC objects to the -- let's -- if the

5 NIGC objects to the -- to the individual, then the

6 tribe, once it's issued the license, has to suspend the

7 license, has to suspend the license to the individual,

8 issue them a notice telling them of their right to have

9 a hearing to discuss the issues that are -- that

10 pertain -- that the NIGC is concerned about that

11 pertains to their license.

12 The tribe holds a hearing. You guys are very

13 familiar. You make a decision on whether or not the

14 person retains their license or not. And then you have

15 to notify the NIGC. That process is common. It's not

16 new. But that's -- that's the process that this

17 regulation now formalizes, and, in part, by 556 and 558.

18 We, again, are trying to move into, at least

19 the 20th Century, and, hopefully, you can submit these

20 documents to us electronically. I know we are working

21 on that internally. I know that, oftentimes, you will

22 e-mail your regions and talk to them that way. And it

23 seems to be working.

24 We are also working on developing a form, a

25 single form, that has the information. We also realize

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1 that regions use different formats, and so we want it be

2 uniform and consistent throughout all regions.

3 And, then, finally, while your current

4 ordinance may not -- may not have this procedure laid

5 out in it, that's okay. But if you make a future

6 ordinance amendment, we've included in this -- in these

7 regs that that future ordinance amendment has to fix it

8 to make sure that you comply with these regulations when

9 it comes to these licensing issues.

10 This -- these drafts are on the website.

11 They're in your hands. And they are open for comment

12 and discussion drafts until August 10th.

13 This section also addressed fingerprint

14 processing. We asked whether or not tribes would like

15 to have fingerprint process -- access to fingerprint

16 processing through the NIGC. Tribes are very supportive

17 of that, and we're working with the FBI to see how we

18 can make that possible.

19 Part 537, we do have a draft of this. We've

20 done two things in this -- no, 537.

21 We have this one. This particular section

22 addresses the question of the -- that the NOI asked

23 whether or not we needed to clarify that a management

24 contractor of a Class II and a Class III facility needs

25 to submit to -- needs to have a completed background

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1 investigation.

2 We had some concerns about this, but as a

3 point of clarification, most commenters did not have an

4 issue with that. And that is included in your handout,

5 and it is on page one. And there's an additional

6 section in page -- on page -- oh. On page -- these are

7 not numbered.

8 On page four, we also added a section that

9 tribes -- tribes said, "Well, is there a way you can

10 streamline the process for backgrounding a management

11 contractor or someone who has already gone through a

12 bunch of regulatory hoops?" And, you know, "Instead of

13 having to recreate the wheel and generate more paper, is

14 there a way we can streamline this?"

15 So on page four, starting on line 15, it says,

16 "The Chair may exercise discretion and reduce the

17 background investigation to be conducted," et cetera,

18 "for any tribe, a wholly-owned tribal entity, national

19 bank, or institutional investors that is federally

20 regulated or required to undergo a background

21 investigation and license -- or licensure by a State or

22 a tribe pursuant to tribal state compact." So we are

23 just trying to streamline things, create efficiency, not

24 make tribes have to repeat work that's already been

25 done.

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1 If any of you have questions on this, or you

2 have comments, again, please send them in. Comments on

3 this close on August 9th.

4 The next section, part 531 -- I'm going

5 backwards here -- you do not have a draft in front of

6 you. But one of the questions that the Notice of

7 Inquiry asked was whether or not the NIGC should require

8 submission and approval of collateral agreements to

9 management contracts. We received a -- well, we asked

10 the question in the Notice of Inquiry, and we received

11 such a variety of comments and that spanned from one

12 side to the other. The majority of commenters supported

13 the submission of the collateral agreement with

14 management contracts, but there's significant

15 disagreement about whether or not the NIGC should have

16 the -- have the authority to approve or disapprove those

17 agreements.

18 There was concern that requiring approval of

19 collateral agreements would discourage private

20 investments, that there -- we don't have -- the NIGC

21 doesn't have the statute authority; that if the NIGC did

22 do this, then it could be construed as second guessing a

23 business decision; and that those agreements, other than

24 management contracts -- management agreements should be

25 left to the discretion of -- to the discretion of

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1 tribes.

2 Then we heard, on the other side, that the

3 trust responsibilities require the review and approval

4 of these agreements, that the approval protects tribes'

5 proprietary interests. Approval could discourage

6 businesses attempting to take advantage of tribes, and

7 that the approval reduces risks to both parties of the

8 agreement.

9 Now, we haven't drafted anything. We have

10 only just the comments that were received by tribes on

11 this. And -- and, again, we're looking for additional

12 comments, if you have any. We've heard significant

13 discussion on this because it is something that is very

14 contentious, which is why it was included in the review.

15 The next section, part 571 -- you do have a

16 handout for this -- does two things. Well, first, we

17 asked the question about whether or not the NIGC needs

18 to clarify that it has access to papers, books, and

19 records that were held included -- in places including

20 sites that are owned by third parties. We heard

21 comments on this, that this is unnecessary, that you

22 have to have at least subpoena authority, but that if it

23 was a point of clarification, then there was not a huge

24 objection to including it in the regulation.

25 The concern has been that -- the concern has

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1 been that some third parties, such as management

2 contractors or developers or consultants, held tribes'

3 proprietary information off site, and that the tribes

4 were unable to get it, and, perhaps, the NIGC would be

5 able to -- to do that through this provision.

6 There were comments that we could resolve this

7 by simply requiring tribes to maintain all records on

8 site. Again, issues with making sure that we stay

9 within our statutory authority and -- and clarifying

10 what our authority is with regard to Class III

11 documents.

12 The other thing that this -- that this section

13 does is it provides a provision in 571.4, which, I

14 believe, is on page two of your -- of the draft, that

15 basically says that when the NIGC has concluded its

16 investigation, and it's decided it's not going to begin

17 enforcement action at that time, the Commission can

18 advise the party by letter that the investigation has

19 been -- has been concluded. We've included language,

20 also, that says notification is not a finding that there

21 is no violation or that -- that -- and that this

22 notification doesn't preclude further action.

23 But we've received a number of comments from

24 tribes saying they were under investigation two years

25 ago, and they don't know if they're still under

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1 investigation now, and that they're required to tell the

2 management contracts, banks, you know, they're under

3 investigation. And if there's no closure, then they

4 have to -- there's no notification of closure, then they

5 have to keep disclosing this over and over again, even

6 if the investigation has been -- has -- nothing has

7 happened on the investigation in -- in a significant

8 amount of time.

9 Written comments on this section close on --

10 on August 9th, as well.

11 And, finally, the last issue that came up in

12 section four was whether or not we needed to define --

13 MR. APODOCA: Albert Apodoca for Mescalero.

14 On the management contract, on the

15 investigation, one of the things that -- that I know has

16 been helpful to the -- to the gaming commission, the

17 local gaming, tribal gaming regulatory authority, is we

18 went through that, right. We have a management

19 contract. And I met with the NIGC investigators on --

20 on what they had done versus what we had done.

21 But what I felt was lacking is I had asked for

22 a copy of the background, okay? I mean -- I mean we

23 figure, right, we're the ones entering into the

24 contract. And we're the ones that did -- we did a

25 background on them. But so does -- the NIGC does one

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1 independent of the local tribal gaming regulatory

2 authority. So wouldn't it make sense to share that

3 information, rather than -- we -- we didn't -- we

4 weren't allowed to -- to see that. We weren't allowed

5 to -- you know, it would be nice to have a copy because

6 I mean we don't know that -- the NIGC has far greater

7 resources, than, let's say, the local tribal gaming

8 regulatory authority.

9 So it would be nice to have access to that

10 information because there may be something in there

11 that, if -- if we're dealing with a -- the management

12 company, and let's say that the -- let's say that --

13 that you have -- in that company, you have certain

14 people that have a relationship with each other, or an

15 interest in the company, or whatever, and then they're

16 buying or selling within, or having some transactions

17 that maybe the local tribal gaming regulatory authority

18 would have no idea that it may be a conflict of interest

19 or something because we didn't have that additional

20 information, we didn't find that out in our background?

21 You see, and if it's not shared, how are we going to

22 know that that would have been helpful? I mean that --

23 that would have been extremely helpful.

24 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Yeah, thank you. That's a

25 good point. And I will -- we'll take that back to the

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1 chief of staff and see if there's -- see what -- I'm

2 not -- I don't think we're sure -- certain what the

3 policy is there. And it's not, you know, ready. And it

4 does seem to make sense. So we'll take that back and

5 see if we can't find an answer for you or --

6 MR. APODOCA: I had one other thing. I had

7 brought this up some time back, but I'm not sure how

8 viable this is. But I know that one of the things is

9 vendor background investigations. It's not management

10 contracts, but vendor background investigation. I mean

11 I think of all the tribes that do background

12 investigations, and so it's redundant. We duplicate

13 each other as we go back and forth, all that money

14 spent. It would be nice, I mean it would be great, if

15 the -- if the NIGC would do these and share them with

16 us. But, of course, we don't want to pay additional

17 fees. We just want the information, and we want it

18 free.

19 Thank you.

20 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: That is an ongoing topic

21 of discussion for us because we understand the need.

22 And I know that the Office of the General Counsel is in

23 discussions with the FBI to try to make sure that we

24 have no institutional barriers to it, and to also flesh

25 out any other potential concerns that might come up

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1 before we jump -- get ahead of ourselves, because we

2 know the need is great. We absolutely do know the need

3 is great. And we just don't have the mechanism right

4 now to really share that information, either, to those

5 who participate.

6 The information that is available is very

7 restrictive, and we understand that. And we understand

8 that the system could be more useful. But there are

9 some other concerns, I know, that we have to get through

10 on the legal side. Considering, especially -- one thing

11 that I'm concerned about is -- it is we don't license.

12 The tribes license. We're not licensing agents. And to

13 the extent that, even when it is meant to be helpful,

14 that we get involved in the process, I worry about the

15 future of what -- the Agency's role in that, with having

16 that information and passing it along, and being kind of

17 the conduit just gives me a moment of pause. And I know

18 that it's -- you know, we're looking at it. We know

19 there's -- there's a need, and there has got to be a way

20 to address it. Absolutely.

21 Mr. Green?

22 MR. GREEN: I think the only place you have

23 jurisdiction over vendors would be under 2702, organized

24 crime. We all have a duty to keep organized crime out

25 of any gaming, and that's the only place, I think, that

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1 has any ability to exercise any authority over vendors

2 in any way, shape, or form.

3 They certainly could approve, however, you

4 getting direct information and receiving and using it

5 from another gaming commission that you believe is

6 reputable, which would stop the requirement that you

7 have to physically go back and redo that examination.

8 If I could, I would like to take you back to

9 556.

10 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Can I -- can I ask you

11 to -- Lael has not finished the outline on the last

12 part. Can I -- do you need to go forward? Can you hold

13 off and let her finish and then go?

14 MR. GREEN: You're the boss.

15 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you, sir.

16 MR. APODOCA: May I comment on my statement?

17 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Sure.

18 MR. APODOCA: It was just to do the background

19 information. You would not license. The NIGC would not

20 license. Right?

21 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Right.

22 MR. APODOCA: I just wanted free information.

23 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Well, we've talked about

24 it, I mean internally, and I know this has been

25 discussed amongst the tribes, is tribes are

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1 backgrounding, as well, and spending money. You know,

2 is there a way to give it -- you get it independent of

3 us? Is there a way to use the associations -- these

4 are -- these are things I'm sure people have thought

5 about -- that shares resources, you know.

6 And I know that tribes I've served for have

7 their own independent reasons why they do and do not

8 share or not, and I understand these reasons. So that's

9 why we look, and, you know, and turn to Jess. Jess is

10 correct, I mean as far as what we have -- again, trying

11 to stay in our lane. But we understand the need.

12 MS. ECHO-HAWK: So the final issue before we

13 start getting -- delving into the substance was part

14 502, and I'll call this just the definitions section.

15 And particularly, it's the definition of "net revenues."

16 And we did talk about this earlier. We talked about the

17 concerns that this region particularly has with changing

18 or messing around at all with these definitions.

19 We had internal comments, thoughts about

20 defining -- changing how we define "net revenue" for the

21 purpose of a management contract calculation. We asked

22 tribes whether or not we should revise that to be

23 consistent, again, with GAAP.

24 Comments were sort of all over the board. We

25 haven't made any changes to this for the reasons that I

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1 discussed earlier, and that is, that the concern with

2 the statutory definition, which is gross gaming of net

3 revenue means gross gaming revenue of Indian gaming

4 activity, less amounts paid out or paid for prizes --

5 paid out as or paid for prizes or total operating

6 expenses, excluding management fees.

7 So now, we have a statutory definition. We

8 are -- don't believe that if we use -- that GAAP

9 would -- would comply with that statutory definition.

10 And so, right now, we have no draft of recommended

11 changes to this at all. But it was an issue that we

12 raised, and we raised it primarily because we'd heard a

13 variety of comments on the issue. But, you know, a

14 number of comments did, in fact, come from this region

15 with those concerns about how you define that net

16 revenue and then how people outside of the industry will

17 interpret that change.

18 So with that, I turn it back over to the Vice

19 Chair.

20 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: So group four is pretty

21 extensive. That's why I think I will save our

22 discussion until afterwards.

23 But, Jess, I know you wanted to go back to

24 519, so I thank you for your patience in letting Lael

25 finish.

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1 Let's go back to 519.

2 MR. GREEN: Excuse me. 556.

3 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Oh, 556.

4 All right. Go ahead.

5 MR. GREEN: Again, we've always had the

6 requirement -- and I say "always" -- that key employees'

7 associations be explored. But to my knowledge, we've

8 never had any training suggested by that NAGA, suggested

9 by the NIGC, or anybody else, about how we do it.

10 You've got a list of things that ought to be required.

11 I would suggest this be added to the list, that the key

12 employees provide a list of all associations that are

13 evidenced by written -- (a) written membership forms;

14 (b) written membership dues; (c) taxable income

15 received; and (d) membership announcement in public

16 forums or social media.

17 I -- I do not want to find out that my manager

18 is the Royal King of the Ku Klux Clan in a social

19 meeting.

20 Lael, you've got your head down. That could

21 happen. Can you imagine a bigger disaster for us?

22 MS. ECHO-HAWK: I worked at a gaming

23 operation. I know that.

24 MR. GREEN: I mean if we -- the -- the one

25 place we really haven't done our jobs over the years --

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1 and I said "we" because I've been around as long as

2 y'all have -- is we have really not explored that we

3 often do a better job, particularly the ones where there

4 is written evidence of having everybody declare it. I

5 mean if you have a church membership, it would be good

6 to know it. If you were a member of Al-Qaeda before

7 911, it would have been nice to know.

8 Well, I mean -- and -- and it is pretty easy

9 that by interjecting a rule that says you have to list

10 all of your associations that are evidenced by written

11 membership forms, written members -- or -- or membership

12 dues, by taxable -- taxable income received. And,

13 again, if you get a taxable income from some association

14 that you have, you get a taxable stipend every year and

15 it shows up on your incomes taxes, I think your -- your

16 license -- it ought to be in your license review.

17 And if there are membership announcements that

18 are going to be made in some public forum or social

19 media, I think we ought to know about that because,

20 again, I'm much more worried these days of social media

21 than I am of anything else.

22 Thank you.

23 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you, Jess.

24 Are there any other statements that should be

25 made? If not, I'm thinking we'll take a short break and

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1 then get right into discussion, and maybe have an

2 opportunity to wrap it up early, if we can.

3 So how about a ten-minute break, and then

4 we'll pick up from there?

5 (Recess.)

6 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: If we could get seated

7 again, we'll go into our last group, and, hopefully, get

8 you out of here a little bit early.

9 We were just having a conversation about our

10 website. And we certainly understand that some of you

11 have a hard time navigating that website. I have a hard

12 time navigating that website. We are doing everything

13 we can to get our IT services in a position to handle

14 today's technology. And we're doing a -- a couple of

15 different things to make that happen. And part of that

16 is -- is the access to resources that we just have not

17 accessed in many years. And so, if you will be patient

18 with us, if you can't find anything, don't hesitate to

19 call somebody in the field. You can have my number, and

20 go ahead and call to my office. It's -- our intent is

21 to get as much out there as we can, but if you can't

22 find it, then we're not doing any good. So we need

23 to -- to try to do the best we can. And if you will

24 bear with us, hopefully, we'll have a better website in

25 the very near future.

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1 MR. APODOCA: And a directory, right?

2 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: That would be nice.

3 Yeah.

4 MR. APODACA: Yes.

5 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: I keep all of those, but

6 they're not on the phone list.

7 MR. APODOCA: Yeah, but we never get to see

8 your copy.

9 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: It has my number.

10 MR. APODOCA: Yeah. That's just what I

11 needed.

12 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: All right. Group four,

13 Lael gave us a summary, and I know Mr. Green had some

14 initial comments. And I certainly want to turn this

15 over to you for your thoughts, if you want, or we can

16 start with Part 556, unless there is another part that

17 you'd prefer to talk about.

18 In part 556, one of the discussions that we've

19 had internally has to do with a suggestion that we issue

20 a no objection letter. And part of that, part of the

21 thought behind that is, of course, to be responsive, to

22 not be the black hole, to not delay any further than we

23 have to so that, if we have no objection and we know --

24 as soon as we know, that that decision can be provided

25 to the tribe, bring clarity to the process, a little

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1 bit.

2 Any thoughts?

3 We also -- as Lael said, we broke up those two

4 parts to discuss the different times in the licensing

5 events so that it was more clear you weren't going

6 between the two sections to -- to find out what was

7 needed to do to comply. We hope that that is useful.

8 MR. APODOCA: I have a statement.

9 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Please.

10 MR. APODOCA: It's just something recent, and

11 I had a vendor call me.

12 Albert with the Mescalero again.

13 Anyway, I had a vendor call me just recently.

14 And we've been doing business with the vendor for years,

15 and then, all of a sudden, it's an issue. They were

16 asking -- and it's a major gaming vendor -- what

17 information, vendor information on employees, like

18 officers and so forth, do we share with the National

19 Gaming Commission, which caught me off guard because I

20 told him, "We don't unless they inquire, you know,

21 unless they specifically ask."

22 So I was wondering, is there -- has the NIGC

23 done anything different that, all of a sudden, I have --

24 and this is one of two vendors, not necessarily on the

25 same -- the exact same topic, but somewhat similar,

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1 questioning the NIGC, of course, the vendor application,

2 and do we share information with the NIGC for like the

3 employee information.

4 They were concerned about identity theft. I

5 was kind of -- they were saying they were concerned, I

6 guess, with the hacking, especially with government

7 units being targeted, that how safe was that

8 information? What do we share with the NIGC and all of

9 that, you know. And I -- I was just curious as have you

10 heard about that or --

11 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: What I was actually

12 thinking when you were saying that was not really

13 identity theft, but the expense to some vendors to be

14 licensed in multiple jurisdictions. I know it can be

15 quite extreme, and I was thinking, maybe, that's what

16 they were trying to get at, whether or not there would

17 be some central repository.

18 But the -- as far as on the criminal side, any

19 information that we keep, of course, is stored under

20 agreements and -- and systems between us and the FBI and

21 the DOJ. I'm not aware of an identity-theft issue.

22 MR. APODOCA: She mentioned -- okay.

23 She mentioned -- well, she mentioned the

24 Freedom of Information Act, right, because she says that

25 because the NIGC is subject to that. And I was kind

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1 of -- her statements were, "It's relatively easy to get

2 information under that," and, "What would be shared by

3 the NIGC on -- under that Act?" And that was the

4 concern. It wasn't so much the -- the -- the costs and

5 all of that. But that was her statement.

6 MS. WARD: Yeah. The Freedom of Information

7 Act doesn't apply, necessarily, to individuals, so when

8 they're concerned about the identity theft, to -- even

9 if we had information on vendors and their employees, we

10 could only release that if we had a signed statement

11 from that employee of the vendor allowing us to release

12 it.

13 But as Steffani and Lael said, we don't know

14 of any -- anything that would prompt this new question

15 about identity theft and what kind of information we get

16 from vendors other than to say, in the last, probably,

17 year to two years, there has been an uptake in the

18 number of tribes that want us to do background

19 investigations for vendors. And that's been a stronger

20 movement, but we're still working on that.

21 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Are there any other

22 thoughts or comments on 556 and 558?

23 On page two of 558, and, specifically, 558.2,

24 subsection (c)(2), which is line eight, we've included

25 in this -- and I put it out for discussion again,

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1 "shall" and "may." Under the section, if the tribe does

2 not license an applicant, the tribe shall notify the

3 Commission and shall or may forward copies of the

4 determination to the Commission for inclusion in the --

5 in the gaming individual's record system.

6 MS. ECHO-HAWK: This issue came up because the

7 current regulation -- this isn't a change, but that the

8 tribe has to notify the NIGC if it does not license an

9 applicant. Now, you may not license an applicant for

10 all kinds of reasons. The employee may not take that

11 position, may move out of town. There's -- there's a

12 bunch of reasons why an applicant might not be licensed

13 that doesn't include, you know, some sort of problem

14 with their background investigation.

15 And so internally we're thinking, "Okay. So

16 the -- you know, instead of us sort of having a flag, a

17 red flag next to this individual's name as someone who

18 is not licensable, maybe if we received the information

19 from the -- from the tribe about why the person wasn't

20 licensed, then there wouldn't -- you know, in certain

21 instances, there wouldn't be those types of red flags."

22 We've heard stories of employees who are

23 licensed applicants who simply forget or -- or overlook

24 the fact that they may be -- you know, around here, they

25 had applied to work at Isleta and Sandia, and got hired

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1 at Isleta. They didn't get -- had -- had received an

2 offer of employment at another place, but didn't go

3 forward with that job, and so was not licensed. That

4 individual failed to report that they didn't get a

5 license, that they had applied for a license, but they

6 didn't receive it, and received some license action that

7 was very negative on their history. And it had nothing

8 to do with that person's background investigation, just

9 had to do with he took another offer of employment and

10 forgot that he had begun a licensing process over at

11 another -- at another tribe.

12 And so for us, we're thinking, "Well, how can

13 we make it clear internally? How do we know that this

14 person is -- was not licensed by the tribe because the

15 tribe -- you know, because they withdrew the application

16 or because there was something wrong, or the tribe

17 didn't like what they uncovered on the background

18 investigation?" And so the "shall" or "may" came up.

19 It would provide us with the information. We would know

20 the reason why -- or at least we'd know whether or not

21 there was an issue in the background investigation if

22 the tribe were to send us that information.

23 But so the question there is, "Should we

24 require that? Is it useful information for the NIGC to

25 have? And should the tribe be mandated, then, by

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1 regulation, to send it to us because it would be -- you

2 know, if there's an eligibility determination, that

3 contains all of that background investigation, as well,

4 and it might be somewhat burdensome." We don't know the

5 answer to that and wanted to ask the tribes.

6 MR. APODOCA: If I can comment?

7 Anyway, on that -- in a scenario like that, we

8 would not want to notify the Gaming -- the NIGC because

9 we don't feel that -- we don't feel that we went through

10 the whole licensing procedure, right? And if the -- if

11 the applicant withdrew or was at a point -- let's say

12 they were in their 55th day, and you haven't hit the

13 60-day where we have to send it into the NIGC, the

14 suitability and all of that, that they withdrew, and we

15 decided that we weren't going to license them because

16 there is no need to -- or sometimes I know we've had

17 situations where a licensee, or the applicant, has gone

18 to a certain point and then decided, "Well I don't want

19 to go through," but they've submitted the application.

20 And now, it's -- you know, we term it the "investigative

21 process," so we don't feel we have to notify the

22 National Indian Gaming Commission.

23 Now, how they report it -- like if -- if

24 another tribe regulatory authority called us and said,

25 "Was Albert licensed?" We would say, "No. And it

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1 wasn't because he wasn't licensable. It was because

2 either the process was terminated or because he -- he

3 decided not to be hired there or be employed there," or

4 for whatever reasons. But if we -- if we turned it --

5 if we -- if the background was so bad, at that point,

6 you know, at the beginning, I mean we would just deny it

7 up front.

8 But I -- I would think that -- and I know that

9 the -- the New Mexico tribes, for the most part, we have

10 that form that we send back and forth on the

11 verification. And -- and I would hope that it would not

12 be necessary that -- that one tribe would call another

13 and say, "Well, how come Albert wasn't licensed? He

14 didn't tell us about that," or whatever, right? I mean

15 the whole point of us agreeing on a standard one and

16 verification was to have this communication. I don't

17 think it should be mandated by the National Indian

18 Gaming Commission. I think the tribes should work

19 together, work through this.

20 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you.

21 Part 571, there was a discussion about that,

22 on potential changes to this part.

23 Part of the discussion on this particular

24 regulation has to do with whether or not the NIGC would

25 issue letters. Let's say that an investigation had

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1 closed. There is a further finding, or a finding of no

2 violation, and that we closed an investigation. And

3 that is included in 571.4, beginning on the first page,

4 line 28.

5 One of things that has come to our attention

6 during the course of talking to tribes about this

7 discussion is -- interestingly enough, is the -- the --

8 the terminology "investigation closure letter." I know

9 that that was a really -- was a really good point, that

10 maybe we should go back and look at my terminology

11 because closures have such a distinct meaning under IGRA

12 that maybe we could use "conclusion," or some -- some

13 other terminology. And I thought that that was a really

14 important point.

15 We have included in here that in those

16 instances where we have concluded its investigation --

17 our investigation in a particular matter, and we've

18 determined that we will not recommend commencement of

19 enforcement proceedings, that the Commission's

20 authorized representative, in his or her discretion, may

21 advise the parties by letter that the investigation has

22 been terminated. This is most likely to be at the

23 regional level, is what I imagine is how this would

24 actually be executed.

25 We do also include language that says, "Such

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1 notification is not a finding that no violation of IGRA,

2 its regulations, or the tribe's gaming ordinances

3 occurred. Such a notification does not preclude further

4 action based on the investigation."

5 So this is an attempt to -- to really bring

6 some closure where we can, to not get ahead of

7 ourselves, which, at the time, there appeared to be

8 something which may later come to -- to light to be

9 something that we need to be concerned with. So it's a

10 balance, an attempt to balance.

11 Jess, there is that word in 571.5, "entry of

12 premises." We have inserted the language, "The

13 Commission's authorized representatives may enter the

14 premises of an Indian -- Indian gaming operation, or any

15 other person," that's where I scratched my head and how

16 you enter the premises of a person, but, apparently, you

17 can.

18 MR. GREEN: The definition of "person"

19 includes the world.

20 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: It does. The -- and

21 that's part of what -- what prompted this additional

22 language. It came at the request of the tribes, during

23 the NOI comment period, asking about the Agency's

24 ability to obtain materials from third parties.

25 Now, one of the things that has been suggested

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1 in this particular section -- in 571.5 it has been

2 suggested to us that we include some type of

3 notification to the tribes when this is going to happen.

4 And I think that's, again, a suggestion that's worthy of

5 further consideration. And I know it's on our list to

6 take back to the Agency to have discussions about.

7 And then, in subsection (b) in that same

8 section, there is language in there that says, "The

9 Commission's authorized representative shall present or

10 shall show an identification card upon entering gaming

11 operation or other facility." Again, this is the

12 third-party facilities.

13 Yes.

14 MR. GALLEGOS: Just -- it's Manny, again, from

15 Tesuque.

16 Clarification on, I guess, page three, lines

17 25 to 27, why you're limiting the availability or --

18 only to the convenience of the Commission entering a

19 third party's place of business or location of record.

20 Is there a purpose where you're limited only to the

21 Commission's convenience? Shouldn't it also be both,

22 that person and the Commission's?

23 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: I'm looking at the terms

24 because I didn't draft this.

25 MR. GALLEGOS: I mean you're saying here that

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1 convenience to the Commission's authorized

2 representative, time and place convenient to. It's sort

3 of making it one-sided. Is that what you really want?

4 I -- I think it should be more a mutual time and place.

5 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Well, actually, I'm

6 looking at the comment here. It does say in here that

7 this language mirrored 571(6)(b), which is the existing

8 language in the statute, which says, "If such papers,

9 books, or records are not available at the location of

10 the gaming operation, the operation shall make them

11 available at the time and place convenient to the

12 Commission's authorized representative." So I'm not

13 sure if --

14 MR. GALLEGOS: So maybe it needs agreement

15 with both of them. I know you're trying -- I mean I

16 know you're trying to enforce something. But when you

17 go strictly on force, it could say -- well, you may say,

18 "You can only come in between 2:00 and 5:00 on

19 Saturdays." I'm not open on Saturdays.

20 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Well, the reverse can

21 happen, too, if we're talking third parties: "We're

22 only here on Saturdays from 2:00 to 5:00."

23 MR. GALLEGOS: Right. So it could be

24 conveniently you agree, if both parties agree.

25 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Right. I -- I appreciate

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1 that thought. And I will definitely have this noted,

2 and we'll take it back to the lawyers and talk about it.

3 MS. ECHO-HAWK: And to kind of follow up on

4 that, this is in the context of investigations. And so

5 I think that the reason that that's there is that if

6 it's something that needs to be expedited, we don't

7 have -- you know, we're walking this line of regulation,

8 while at the same time respecting the tribes, you know,

9 authority as the tribal government, but making sure that

10 we get what we need when we need it, particularly in the

11 course of an investigation. So we'll definitely look at

12 it, but we have to -- we have to balance that.

13 MR. GALLEGOS: I understand that. It's just

14 that it sounds a little one sided.

15 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Well, I've got a

16 question?

17 MR GREEN: Yes.

18 I reiterate that if you look at your

19 definition of "person," it includes everybody --

20 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you, Jess.

21 MR. GREEN: -- and individuals. And you do

22 not have jurisdiction over everybody. And, in fact, in

23 2002, in the Northern District of Oklahoma, the Justice

24 Department pled it on your behalf to get a case

25 dismissed in -- that Multimedia filed against the

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1 Commission. So you have precedent that you have used it

2 to get cases dismissed. You do not have jurisdiction to

3 compel an accountant to give you the business records of

4 a tribe if the reason he's holding them is he has -- he

5 has a workmen's lien against them, because that's an

6 ownership interest.

7 You have issued closure orders in the past

8 against tribes in Oklahoma that I represented because

9 they did not have money to pay for the accountant, and

10 the accountant had the records, and he would not give

11 them back to us unless we paid him $10,000 that we

12 didn't have. And it was a catch 22. We couldn't do an

13 annual report because we didn't have the money, and we

14 couldn't give them to somebody else because the

15 accountant would find the lien for previous work that he

16 had done and not been paid for work. And we couldn't

17 even get the records back until we closed the gaming

18 establishment and then made enough money elsewhere to

19 pay him for his lien to get those records to get the

20 report.

21 You need to be very careful about asserting

22 jurisdiction against third parties that neither you nor

23 the tribe has jurisdiction over. Your third-party

24 jurisdiction probably extends to everyone a tribe has

25 licensed. It probably -- and except to vendors. I mean

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1 I'm talking about licensing in the -- in the workplace

2 concept. But it does not extend to vendors, but -- but

3 you have successfully pled that in a federal court

4 proceeding. And that will be used against you. It

5 probably won't include professionals because they have

6 liens on their products.

7 And I would give you great caution at trying

8 to exercise jurisdiction over these individuals when you

9 don't have it because your lack of jurisdiction will

10 extend to both of us out here, both you and the tribe.

11 And recently, there has been a rash of decisions where

12 the tribe was told it did not have jurisdiction over

13 individuals if they hadn't specifically given it to

14 them.

15 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you, Jess.

16 Any other comments on part 571?

17 Part 531, collateral agreements.

18 Jess, I know you've got something to say on

19 this.

20 When the Commission issues a NOI on a

21 particular person or -- the question that was posed to

22 the tribes was whether or not this part should be

23 amended to require the submission of approval of

24 collateral agreements. The response came back that

25 about half of the tribal respondents explicitly stated

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1 that the Commission should continue to require the

2 submission of these agreements with management

3 contracts, another 23 percent favored making the

4 submission voluntary, and, then, the remaining offered

5 no opinion.

6 Those not in favor, of course, note that

7 approval of collateral agreements is outside the scope

8 of our authority. One thing that I know I hear

9 consistently, a lot in this area, in particular, is that

10 the NIGC should not second guess a tribe's business

11 dealings, that the tribe has -- is a sovereign, and has

12 the ability to make its own business decisions. Whether

13 these are good or bad, it is the tribe's purview.

14 And -- and those who -- who did comment, said

15 that they would like to see collateral agreements

16 included, commented that -- that -- that the federal

17 government -- and the NIGC is part of the federal

18 government -- has a trust responsibility to -- to review

19 those agreements to look for items which are not in the

20 best interest of the tribes; that it would provide an

21 additional protection to ensure the cumulative effect of

22 the agreement does not violate sole proprietary

23 interest. And they also noted that it would help reduce

24 overreaching by certain entities into tribes that are

25 more vulnerable on the business front right now, for

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1 whatever their own individual reasons are. And that

2 kind of gets to the -- the trust responsibility.

3 So we've -- we don't have a draft of that.

4 It's still an issue for discussion. If anybody has

5 generalized comments, please, we would welcome them.

6 MR. GREEN: Last year, there was a decision

7 from Sac and Fox in Oklahoma that had 15 pages of

8 recitals of filings in federal court and in NIGC's

9 determinations whereby the collateral agreements taken

10 with the management -- with the other agreements were

11 determined to be a management contract. And the tribal

12 Supreme Court used that as the basis to determine that

13 they didn't have to pay back the developer monies. That

14 case has been floating around Indian country for some

15 substantial time. We also have a case from up north

16 where they didn't submit the security agreements for a

17 bond that contained language that equaled a management

18 contract.

19 Again, both of these things are nothing that

20 tribal attorneys haven't been telling management people

21 for years, so I -- I don't see a problem with you asking

22 for the collateral agreements if you are considering

23 something to be a management contract.

24 The problems that I run into with the NIGC

25 have been that you have been trying to scrutinize

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1 collateral agreements and call them management

2 contracts. And you have been scrutinizing the same

3 agreement when I -- when I do it again four or

4 five years later, which is just a burden. I mean if I

5 create a file that's five inches thick for the NIGC, and

6 they looked at it five years ago, why should I have to

7 do it all over again if all that I've changed are the

8 names of the participants?

9 Now, I realize under 2706(b)(1) through (4),

10 you have a right to come view and look at any agreement

11 I have in my file. But I really have a huge issue with

12 the NIGC requiring me to make copies and bring them to

13 you because those copies are very proprietary. If I can

14 come up with an idea that lets me do something in

15 management that nobody else has done in management in my

16 operation, that provides funding for my management, and

17 I give you a copy of that agreement, every lawyer in the

18 NIGC will have a copy of it. When they leave, they will

19 have a copy of it. And they will be free to copy it

20 when they go someplace else and didn't pay us for any of

21 it. So that's an issue for us. The privacy becomes a

22 huge issue.

23 What I would request is that, if you choose to

24 review any collateral agreement that's not immediately

25 associated, that you come on site and read it. And if

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1 you don't deem you need it, leave it there. That way,

2 no one can accuse you of being the one that left the

3 agreement out in the general public because most of

4 these large agreements contain a whole lot of privacy

5 clauses.

6 Thank you.

7 VICE CHAIR COCHRAN: Thank you, Jess.

8 Any other comments?

9 All right. The last part is part 502. Again,

10 the -- the NOI asked for comments on whether the Agency

11 should consider changing the definition of "net

12 revenues" for management contracts.

13 Correct. Thank you.

14 It is currently defined in our -- our

15 regulations as, "Such gross gaming revenues of an Indian

16 gaming operation less (a) amounts paid out as or paid

17 for, prizes; and (b) total gaming-related operating

18 expenses, including all those expenses of the gaming

19 operation commonly known as operating expenses and

20 nonoperating expenses consistent with professional

21 accounting pronouncements, excluding management fees."

22 I think we wrote that. Wow. That was a lawyer.

23 Any thoughts?

24 I will give you something to think about: Why

25 in the NOI comments that came back on this rule, a

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1 little over 60 percent agreed that the Commission should

2 attempt a revision. Some of those commentators

3 mentioned that the change would help them to achieve a

4 uniform, consistent standard. Others stated that the

5 change would help clarify the definition, avoid

6 confusion, disputes. There were -- the remaining

7 35 percent or so opposed any type of a change. They

8 stated that the NIGC is not the authority to change the

9 statutory definition of IGRA. 21 percent requested

10 repeal of the most recent change to this definition so

11 that it would track the definition of IGRA. One

12 commentator said that the definition was not ambiguous,

13 so leave it alone.

14 That is a summary of the feedback that we've

15 gotten.

16 One commentator said that they would support a

17 change only if it made the cal- -- if it affected the

18 calculation of NIGC fees.

19 I know it's been a long day, and I know it is

20 late in the afternoon, so let me just -- before we

21 conclude the afternoon, let me just offer, did anybody

22 have additional thoughts, even from this morning, that

23 they wanted to share, questions that, maybe, came up

24 over the course of your lunch conversations? I know

25 we've given you a lot in today's agenda.

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1 All right. With that, I think we'll conclude

2 today. We -- tomorrow, we do have group five. This is

3 the self-regulation, sole proprietary interest, Class

4 III MICS, and minimum external -- excuse me -- the Class

5 II MICS, and the TAC are also on tomorrow's agenda. So

6 there is a little bit on there for us to discuss.

7 I wish you safe travels home, and I thank you

8 again for your time. And I look forward to seeing you

9 tomorrow.

10 (Whereupon, the proceedings adjourned

11 for the day at 3:43 p.m.)

12

13

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1 STATE OF NEW MEXICO )

 )

2 COUNTY OF BERNALILLO )

3

4 REPORTER CERTIFICATE

5 I, Karen Lee Clark, RPR, CCR No. 277, Certified

6 Court Reporter in the State of New Mexico, do hereby

7 certify that the foregoing pages constitute a true

8 transcript of the proceedings by National Indian Gaming

9 Commission, held in New Mexico, in the matter therein

10 stated.

11 In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand

12 on August 3rd, 2011.

13

14 _________________________________

 KAREN LEE CLARK, RPR, CCR No. 277

15 License Expires: 12/31/11

 Bean & Associates, Inc.

16 201 Third Street, Northwest

 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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101:21 116:23

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54:6,7 152:13

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100:5 131:5 145:5

anticipate 54:13

97:4

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141:22 145:6

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appeals 97:2 99:22

99:25 111:1,1,2,5

111:12 113:3

114:10 115:10

appeared 148:7

appellate 116:15,18

117:21,23,24 118:4

118:13,14

applicable 60:8,10

80:3,14

applicant 120:8,15

143:2,9,9,12 145:11

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applicant's 120:14

applicants 143:23

application 141:1

144:15 145:19

applied 53:14,17

87:6 143:25 144:5

applies 48:16 109:3

apply 36:3 40:6 79:2

80:4,5,12 142:7

appointed 6:18

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48:11 102:17

150:25

appreciative 3:1,8

approach 43:14

49:20 70:15 87:12

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42:23 69:10 76:8

77:19 113:15

approval 48:15,18

126:8,18 127:3,4,5

127:7 153:23 154:7

approve 126:16

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76:1,15 82:12 84:25

85:3 91:17 154:9

areas 23:5 29:18

40:20 57:4 69:8,16

84:14 101:23 102:7

111:7 117:7

arena 31:16 74:2

85:17

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argument 49:21

arguments 34:4

arisen 14:17

arizona 89:16,16

91:19

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arrears 54:11

asap 106:15

aside 18:20

asked 14:12 15:19

22:11 25:20 28:14

33:1 78:6,6,6 99:11

118:5 119:3,17

124:14,22 126:7,9

127:17 129:21

134:21 157:10

asking 14:8 23:7,22

53:12 67:13 68:18

71:4,5 75:2 81:22

90:16,22 104:24

105:10 140:16

148:23 155:21

aspects 100:23

asserting 152:21

assessable 50:15

assessed 20:7 22:7

23:13 51:21 54:23

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111:20 112:14

assessments 54:4

111:23

assist 37:11

assistance 101:6

associate 10:2 114:6

associated 42:6,16

42:17 53:3 156:25

associates 160:15

association 91:11

94:5,7,15 95:2

137:13

associations 134:3

136:7,12 137:10

assuring 97:11

attach 53:18 62:9

63:7

attached 21:9 82:12

attack 47:15

attempt 16:14 31:1

33:5 58:12 72:20

101:12 148:5,10

158:2

attempting 127:6

attempts 65:17

attend 14:21

attention 12:15

29:11 33:18 34:12

59:21 103:16 106:2

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147:5

attestation 27:2

60:12 67:5,12 68:1

69:12

attestations 60:5

attorney 6:1,9 7:14

10:25 11:8 89:13

attorneys 64:7

93:13 110:25

112:20 117:20

118:6,7,11,16

155:20

attract 106:2

audience 2:20 30:14

audit 23:7 37:9,9,17

37:20 92:9,10

audited 19:6,17

35:21

auditing 90:12

auditor 7:3 8:18

23:10

auditors 30:16

31:22 78:6 90:12

audits 23:11 35:20

37:12

august 99:6 124:12

126:3 129:10

160:12

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91:13 93:5 126:16

126:21 127:22

128:9,10 129:17

130:2,8,17 133:1

145:24 151:9 154:8

158:8

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148:13 149:9 150:1

150:12

availability 149:17

available 16:8,12

18:23 25:18 96:24

120:8 132:6 150:9

150:11

avenue 1:13

avoid 34:18 101:21

158:5

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78:22 141:21

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149:7 150:7 156:9

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29:22 32:15,18,23

33:13 36:6 38:22

48:10 49:3,25 50:22

53:4,5,6,21 56:3,4

56:19 57:24 65:10

70:12 73:13 76:23

77:19 81:9 84:7

86:6 93:11,22 96:12

100:16 107:17,20

114:15,15,16 115:4

115:24 116:1,14

121:25 130:25

131:4,7,13 133:7,8

135:18,23 136:1

146:10 147:10

149:6 151:2 152:11

152:17 153:24

155:13 157:25

background 43:17

62:22 86:24 118:25

118:25 119:10,11

120:4,14,22,23

122:11 124:25

125:17,20 129:22

129:25 130:20

131:9,10,11 133:18

142:18 143:14

144:8,17,21 145:3

146:5

backgrounding

125:10 134:1

backwards 126:5

bad 102:3 146:5

154:13

bailiwick 96:6

balance 148:10,10

151:12

ball 93:11

bank 125:19

banks 129:2

bantered 103:7

barbara 8:3

barriers 131:24

base 19:10

based 19:6 29:13

46:10 47:22 51:4,6

51:10 52:9,11 54:6

54:18,19,21 77:13

77:15 148:4

bashful 91:1

basically 15:11

23:17 36:13 70:9

79:16 119:9 128:15

basis 54:6 62:21

86:18 118:10

155:12

basket 44:11

bathrooms 3:4

battle 40:8

beach 5:2,3

beagles 62:4

bean 160:15

bear 138:24

becoming 81:25

began 14:8

begaye 6:8,9

beginning 14:7

54:17 146:6 147:3

begins 120:15

begun 16:2 122:1

144:10

behalf 12:10,10

62:12 151:24

behooves 70:13

believe 10:23 11:21

12:2 30:17 43:9

44:18 45:7,7 51:6

57:24 58:14 69:10

69:13 73:14,20

81:13 85:25 94:12

101:14 128:14

133:5 135:8

believed 48:5

believes 69:4

bench 114:16

benefit 52:14,14,15

52:16,24 53:7,8

bernalillo 160:2

best 12:3 45:21

73:21 74:2 85:23

87:11 96:10 101:17

112:2,3 114:21

138:23 154:20

bestowed 70:19

better 23:23 42:9

43:18 85:11 137:3

138:24

beyond 58:22 66:7

bigger 136:21

biggest 20:12,13

45:12

billingsly 71:17

binder 17:10

bit 20:3 32:13 34:21

121:3 122:16 138:8

140:1 159:6

black 17:18 99:25

139:22

blank 21:14,16

27:16,19 28:1 59:17

blanket 31:23

blanks 42:20

board 3:17 8:23

26:3 33:12 34:9

41:13 71:9 134:24

bob 3:17

bond 20:23 155:17

[attention - bond] Page 4

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
books 92:19 127:18

150:9

bore 14:1

born 9:23

boss 133:14

bottom 52:13

bound 37:23

break 3:6 12:9

31:10 43:15 48:8

66:12 96:4 118:22

137:25 138:3

brett 30:16

brevity 50:23

bring 32:18 33:5,18

34:11 45:15 48:2

57:24 59:21 72:20

73:22 82:20 83:3

101:13 102:12

113:21 115:2

139:25 148:5

156:12

bringing 115:6,14

brings 114:11

115:11

broke 140:3

broken 12:13,13

brought 109:1 131:7

bubble 75:8

budgetarily 32:20

budgeting 32:18

budgets 32:13

bulletin 84:23

bunch 125:12

143:12

burden 58:3 156:4

burdensome 11:19

99:15 122:22 145:4

business 42:4 80:8,9

87:19 126:23

140:14 149:19

152:3 154:10,12,25

businesses 81:8

127:6

button 13:10

buy 18:24 28:15,22

28:25 77:12,24

78:19 79:11 80:7

buying 130:16

c

c 25:9,11,13 102:8

109:16 136:14

142:24

cal 158:17

calculate 37:18

38:19

calculating 22:15

38:1

calculation 19:10

23:19,21 36:2

134:21 158:18

calculations 20:5

23:4 24:25 34:25

calendar 19:8 20:9

42:24

california 95:23

call 20:14 44:13

77:1 86:1 134:14

138:19,20 140:11

140:13 146:12

156:1

called 119:4 145:24

calling 42:1

calls 120:21

capacity 70:14

card 149:10

cards 22:5

care 2:4

career 10:1

careful 76:13

152:21

carefully 39:21

56:14

carlene 6:5

carries 20:22 103:6

cart 17:9

case 12:8 17:20

59:21 64:23 86:12

87:16 90:3 94:21

98:2 113:11,12

118:10,10 151:24

155:14,15

cases 152:2

casino 1:12 2:22

7:18,18 8:18 70:8

93:23

casinos 41:21

cat 70:21

catch 152:12

category 40:24

caught 140:19

cause 38:16 63:10

78:10 104:15

causes 91:18,19

caution 38:11 153:7

ccr 1:21 160:5,14

centered 58:8

centers 82:23

central 1:13 141:17

century 28:3 123:19

certain 27:25 49:24

59:8 73:11 106:25

111:12 118:15

130:13 131:2

143:20 145:18

154:24

certainly 12:21

17:19 21:19 22:8

23:6,9 24:1,4 28:9

29:5 31:3 37:10,24

55:9,12 56:16 64:11

69:22 93:24 104:3

133:3 138:10

139:14

certainty 32:18

100:7

certificate 160:4

certified 112:6

160:5

certify 63:6 160:7

cetera 19:9 56:6

72:5 125:17

chair 1:18 2:1 4:5

5:23 6:18 8:23 9:10

9:15 10:22 11:14

21:25 26:11 29:22

30:3,10 33:12 35:12

38:8 39:2,6 40:15

43:1,7 44:15 47:24

48:13,18,24 49:11

50:2,23 51:13 52:2

52:21 53:23 55:6,13

56:7 58:22 61:15,23

62:3 63:19 66:3,7

66:14 67:3,13,22,24

68:6,11,13,15,22

69:25 72:7 75:3,14

76:13,17,23 77:2,6

79:18 80:24 81:17

87:13 89:12 90:9,15

95:20 96:10 100:17

100:18 102:20

103:11,23 104:1,12

104:17,21 107:3,5,8

108:12,18,22 109:2

109:11,20,24 110:4

110:7,12,15,20,23

113:1,4,10,13 114:6

114:6,10,11,14

115:4,11,23,25

116:17,21 117:4

125:16 131:20

133:10,15,17,21,23

135:19,20 136:3

137:23 138:6 139:2

139:5,9,12 140:9

141:11 142:21

146:20 148:20

149:23 150:5,20,25

151:15,20 153:15

157:7

chair's 66:6 67:6

98:25 105:4 107:5

chairman 4:22 72:4

105:15 108:15

chairperson 55:11

chairs 4:17 55:14

103:20

[books - chairs] Page 5

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
chairwoman 1:18

12:10

challenge 85:22

challenging 82:17

82:22

chance 56:23

change 19:11,19

20:12 22:13,16,24

22:25 31:23 32:4

34:16 39:3,7,14

81:15 135:17 143:7

158:3,5,7,8,10,17

changed 24:24 27:7

45:4 121:21 156:7

changes 20:9,13

26:5 60:13 75:4

84:7 134:25 135:11

146:22

changing 134:17,20

157:11

charge 120:21

charles 3:10 5:8

chavarris 9:9,10

checked 102:25

cherish 40:21

cheryl 7:15

chestnut 6:24

chewiwi 7:5,6

chickasaw 9:22

117:14

chief 131:1

chin 7:14 89:14

chino 6:5,5

chiwiwi 46:20

choice 98:21

choices 111:12

choose 107:23

112:23 156:23

chooses 26:20

chris 8:17

church 137:5

churn 89:3

circulated 30:22

32:3

circumstance 103:4

118:3

circumstances

55:10 107:2

citizen 62:15

city 76:7

civil 111:19

clan 136:18

clara 8:15,18 9:10

9:11 49:2

clarification 20:4,7

68:9 74:6 125:3

127:23 149:16

clarify 15:20 23:25

35:5 111:4,19

124:23 127:18

158:5

clarifying 20:2

49:12 128:9

clarity 36:3 51:17

51:18 52:18 102:12

139:25

clark 1:21 86:23

160:5,14

class 18:19 29:7,10

29:14 37:7 81:20,23

82:10 85:15 87:18

88:8 124:24,24

128:10 159:3,4

classification 71:10

71:23

classifications 44:5

clauses 157:5

clear 17:24 22:10

23:14,22 32:11

35:10 37:4,6,10

38:2,6 40:22 50:21

60:4 61:20 63:12

73:21 79:3 89:18,22

90:4 95:23 100:12

101:1 118:6,11,16

118:18 140:5

144:13

clearly 22:6 38:25

41:16 106:10

117:24

clinton 4:25

close 60:21 126:3

129:9

closed 24:3 27:21,25

28:8 59:12,17,25

61:1 147:1,2 152:17

closely 37:20 101:16

closer 50:6 57:24

closes 27:10,14 99:6

closing 59:5

closure 27:14,15,18

27:19 59:15 61:7,25

62:1 99:3 104:9

107:23 108:1

116:16 129:3,4

147:8 148:6 152:7

closures 59:4,9,10

59:14 60:18 61:16

104:6 147:11

cochran 1:18 2:1 4:5

9:15,22 10:22 11:14

29:23 30:3,10 35:12

38:8 39:2,6 40:15

44:15 47:24 48:13

49:11 50:2,23 51:13

52:2,21 53:23 56:7

61:15,23 62:3 63:19

66:3,14 67:3,24

68:11,13,15,22

69:25 72:7 75:3

76:17,23 77:2,6

79:18 80:24 81:17

87:13 89:12 90:9,15

95:20 96:10 100:18

104:1,12,17,21

108:12,18,22 109:2

109:11,24 110:7,12

110:15,20,23 113:1

113:4 116:21

131:20 133:10,15

133:17,21,23

135:20 136:3

137:23 138:6 139:2

139:5,9,12 140:9

141:11 142:21

146:20 148:20

149:23 150:5,20,25

151:15,20 153:15

157:7

codifies 22:3

cognizant 12:22

coleen 7:11

collateral 126:8,13

126:19 153:17,24

154:7,15 155:9,22

156:1,24

collect 52:15 54:12

54:14 55:20

collected 52:25

collection 55:19

collectively 57:21

83:3

come 2:23 6:1 10:11

16:6,17 20:5 27:12

28:24 29:9 31:9

40:7 55:21 56:3,4

61:11 71:16 72:15

75:17 85:19 88:9

90:10 91:15 92:3

97:12 98:20 118:6

120:19 131:25

135:14 146:13

147:5 148:8 150:18

156:10,14,25

comes 33:22 34:1,8

36:16 69:2 90:17

93:22 124:9

coming 9:20 31:6

39:12 43:5 46:9

56:13 71:15,17 84:2

114:15

comission 86:17

command 75:18

commencement

147:18

comment 16:5,6,8

17:8 24:5 28:7,12

29:21 31:2,9 34:20

35:17 49:3 69:21

[chairwoman - comment] Page 6

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
78:16 86:7 96:2

99:5 108:13 112:25

113:1 114:9 124:11

133:16 145:6

148:23 150:6

154:14

commentator

158:12,16

commentators

158:2

commented 31:21

154:16

commenters 125:3

126:12

comments 2:18

11:13 15:16 16:15

16:16,20 17:12,16

17:17,23 21:18 24:2

24:4,9,14 25:22

28:9 39:12 42:19

43:16 48:20 56:11

56:13,18 57:6,7

66:15 70:15,22

71:25 73:2 76:20

77:15,22 78:24

79:10 80:2 82:3

83:12 84:7 97:7

99:7,13,19,23 102:1

109:12 110:23

111:25 113:20

114:1,20 121:10

126:2,2,11 127:10

127:12,21 128:6,23

129:9 134:19,24

135:13,14 139:14

142:22 153:16

155:5 157:8,10,25

commission 1:9,17

5:15 6:7,16,19 7:12

7:23,25 8:6,16,20

9:8,12,14 11:15

12:1,8 14:5,8,12,25

15:11 16:4 17:7,23

30:23 39:17 40:16

41:3 45:14 49:2

50:5 60:16,25 61:12

62:8,10 63:4,6

66:17 69:4 71:19

72:13 83:17 85:13

85:14 86:9,20 92:14

92:16 97:1,8,11,17

99:10 100:4,6,24

101:5 113:23 114:5

114:13 115:11,18

115:21,22 116:24

117:3 118:1 128:17

129:16 133:5

140:19 143:3,4

145:22 146:18

149:18 152:1

153:20 154:1 158:1

160:9

commission's 34:12

73:6 75:24,25

147:19 148:13

149:9,21,22 150:1

150:12

commissioner 5:20

8:2 9:6 50:18 76:4

105:22 113:7,9,13

114:7 115:1,3 117:9

commissioners 5:18

5:24 12:4 13:15

40:18 41:13 77:17

117:13

commitment 4:8

12:18 17:7 73:6

commits 17:22

committed 17:24

83:17 97:11

committee 82:24

84:5 94:9

common 46:22 86:7

112:8 123:15

commonly 119:4

157:19

communicate

108:11

communicated

105:19

communication

64:3 102:24 103:12

105:17,18 107:8

146:16

communications

103:1 104:14,19

communities 41:16

community 7:14

8:23 89:14

compact 34:1,24

60:11 87:25 88:3

89:2,21 90:14 92:10

93:22 125:22

compacting 82:6

87:17 89:23

compacts 88:1,19

89:16 90:2 91:4

92:7

companies 81:11

company 130:12,13

130:15

compare 21:7

compel 152:3

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complete 63:8 104:5

121:22,22,24 122:2

122:25

completed 124:25

completely 72:13

78:15

compliance 7:16 9:3

45:15 46:21 48:2

60:8,12 73:23 97:11

97:12,17 98:4,8,20

101:2 108:4 110:18

complicated 23:20

23:21 36:17

complied 60:6

comply 37:22 38:4

109:23 110:18

124:8 135:9 140:7

comps 36:20

comptroller 19:4

computer 81:11

conceivably 100:3

concept 83:24 102:2

117:15 153:2

concepts 91:15

concern 39:18 40:3

40:11 69:21 78:13

97:23 98:5,18 99:14

101:4 104:2 106:7

106:16 109:19

120:4 126:18

127:25,25 135:1

142:4

concerned 29:12,17

40:9 45:14 123:10

132:11 141:4,5

142:8 148:9

concerns 22:22 23:2

24:14 71:4 99:13

101:17 114:18

125:2 131:25 132:9

134:17 135:15

concise 119:9

conclude 158:21

159:1

concluded 128:15

128:19 147:16

conclusion 37:20

147:12

conclusions 33:15

condition 61:13

conditions 59:9

conducted 27:3

57:19 125:17

conduit 132:17

conference 107:14

confirms 73:2

conflict 39:22 76:16

130:18

confronting 48:2

confused 36:23

confusing 20:3 50:9

confusion 158:6

congress 89:4 91:21

connotations 103:7

[comment - connotations] Page 7

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
consensus 84:1,3,15

consider 50:10,11

102:9 116:2 119:17

157:11

consideration 31:24

55:9 149:5

considered 17:8

56:14 59:14

considering 17:17

36:12 132:10

155:22

consistent 22:14,19

22:21 33:7 34:2

35:10 48:19 77:21

109:4 124:2 134:23

157:20 158:4

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consolidated 99:17

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91:20

constitute 59:15

160:7

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57:18 60:6

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consultation 1:10

11:16,19 14:4,4,19

14:24 15:1 24:6

28:11 58:18,20 70:6

70:8,12 72:2 73:22

73:25 101:6 106:5

106:14 108:6,9

consultations 11:20

14:11,16 16:19 46:5

46:18 58:7 72:21

79:1

consults 15:7 69:13

contact 63:13

112:16

contain 109:22

110:11,12 157:4

contained 26:24

98:12 121:6 155:17

contains 145:3

contemplating

107:7

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context 151:4

continue 29:14 31:8

41:19 43:3 54:11

67:22 94:3 99:24

108:1 154:1

continues 31:18

42:25

contract 99:22

129:14,19,24

134:21 155:11,18

155:23

contractor 124:24

125:11

contractors 119:2

128:2

contracts 126:9,14

126:24 129:2

131:10 154:3 156:2

157:12

control 8:23 33:12

34:9 35:3 76:5

controls 18:20

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149:21 150:1

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104:4 110:8 138:9

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44:23 45:3 158:24

conveyed 61:19

copies 143:3 156:12

156:13

copy 93:15 129:22

130:5 139:8 156:17

156:18,19,19

corporation 109:6

correct 44:19,20

51:19 66:13 87:1

101:25 134:10

157:13

corrections 74:13

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cost 42:6,16,17 52:1

112:11

costs 142:4

council 3:15 5:1,3,6

8:4,8,10

councilman 3:10

9:19 30:9

councilmen 30:4

counsel 1:18,19 5:12

6:21 8:22 10:5,7,7

10:25 11:8 33:11

63:13 118:9 131:22

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country 13:13,13

29:11,18 39:21

40:20 46:4 57:5

59:20 72:16 77:20

91:25 92:22 102:7

155:14

county 81:13 160:2

county's 86:23

couple 2:4,5 19:1,2

19:22 28:21 41:1

64:4 121:7 138:14

course 13:15 33:17

40:19 41:18 42:18

42:24 52:22 66:5

71:16 131:16

139:21 141:1,19

147:6 151:11 154:6

158:24

court 62:18 63:11

88:14 91:17 93:11

153:3 155:8,12

160:6

cover 76:1 97:3

111:19

covers 96:23 118:23

120:10,11

cpa 47:15

create 31:25 90:7

91:6 125:23 156:5

created 32:12,19

creative 83:23

credibility 86:16

crime 132:24,24

criminal 141:18

crit 87:16 88:7,13

89:10,17,24 90:3,3

91:5 95:5

critical 94:7

crosswired 78:9

cumulative 154:21

curious 90:11 141:9

current 26:8 39:11

39:15 58:14 70:6

72:20 75:9 82:13,23

93:9 124:3 143:7

currently 11:8

14:15 15:25 16:12

39:3,9 67:15 68:4

82:19 157:14

cushion 46:11

cut 69:20,22 77:9

d

d 102:17,20 136:15

dah 7:18

daniel 6:20

darwin 9:3

database 122:21

date 19:16

daunting 13:7,14

david 6:25 35:15

43:22 51:17

day 16:5,7 17:1 18:8

18:13 24:5 26:11

28:3 32:10 42:24

43:6 47:10 50:13,18

52:5,8 53:24 55:1,4

103:13 145:12,13

158:19 159:11

[consensus - day] Page 8

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
days 12:13 21:2,9,24

26:9,12,17 27:9,19

28:12 42:16,17 47:6

47:7 52:7,7,19

53:14,17,25,25 55:3

55:4 58:14,15,23

59:25,25 65:9,14,24

66:4,5,7 120:15

121:16,18,20,20,25

123:3 137:20

dc 11:1 106:20

deal 33:20 34:14

42:8,11 47:11 70:16

70:17,17 79:17

94:14

dealing 11:9 34:7,13

38:18 70:19 74:11

85:13 130:11

dealings 154:11

deals 71:6,10 110:25

113:6

death 14:1

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89:3 95:25

debating 88:21

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145:15,18 146:3

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110:5 120:18

decision 32:9,11

51:7 55:12 58:24

63:9 68:23 84:24

115:5,7,8,17,17

116:8,14 117:5

123:13 126:23

139:24 155:6

decisionmaking

17:25 44:25

decisions 13:17 18:4

58:15 73:18 116:17

116:25 153:11

154:12

declare 137:4

decrease 122:18

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37:1,1

deduction 37:3

deem 40:2 157:1

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defend 86:4

deferring 73:15

define 23:23 32:2

129:12 134:20

135:15

defined 40:4 73:7

108:18,19,24

157:14

defines 114:5

defining 134:20

definitely 40:11

43:24 151:1,11

definition 22:12,13

22:17,17,19,24,25

23:1 31:20 32:4,25

33:14,21 34:21,22

34:23 36:13 37:22

38:3 39:18 40:4,5

79:20 134:15 135:2

135:7,9 148:18

151:19 157:11

158:5,9,10,11,12

definitions 33:25

34:15 35:3,8 40:10

56:24 134:14,18

delay 62:18 99:15

103:23 106:15

139:22

delegates 3:11

deleted 74:12,25

75:7

deletions 75:1

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44:9 48:1 52:4

deloris 3:14 7:2,3

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department 6:11

23:7 37:9,17,25

47:4 55:18 64:5,7

64:16,18 151:24

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101:24

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87:24

determination

64:16 65:20 143:4

145:2

determinations

58:13 64:11,22

111:23 112:13

155:9

determine 25:9

155:12

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147:18 155:11

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54:8

developer 155:13

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20:25 37:18,21

123:24

development 62:16

81:13

develops 38:11

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difference 35:23

67:9 122:16

different 15:12,24

26:11 29:18 32:5,6

33:19 35:8 39:1

42:8 48:25 56:22

70:18 74:2 95:22,22

104:9 124:1 138:15

140:4,23

differently 29:18

39:13 81:25

difficult 16:22 23:8

32:19,22 35:1,8

44:7

dilemma 33:23

ding 6:10,10

dip 118:10

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Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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[individually - jess] Page 16

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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32:7 34:5 36:20,21

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12:18 84:2,3 104:20

107:12,16

lease 28:19

leave 13:3 76:10

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[jess - leave] Page 17

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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[leave - management] Page 18

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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90:12,13,20 92:21

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minutes 31:11 48:9

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89:1 91:8,16 131:13

134:1 152:9,13,18

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4:20,23,24 5:2,5,7

5:10,13,16,19,22,25

6:5,8,10,12,14,17,20

6:23,25 7:2,5,8,11

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8:1,3,5,9,11,14,17

8:19,21,24 9:2,5,7,9

9:13,15 10:20,24

11:6 13:25 14:3

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33:9,10 39:16 50:25

96:18 97:9 158:22

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motions 115:24,24

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28:2,5 58:13 65:19

84:15 94:1 98:21

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123:18 143:11

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93:20 121:10

movement 142:20

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25:16 28:19,20

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[management - moving] Page 19

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
multicolored 75:7

multimedia 151:25

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mutual 150:4

n

naga 136:8

name 4:21,25 5:2,10

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night 17:11

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nj340546 1:24

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noncompliance

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notices 20:18 111:23

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[multicolored - nov] Page 20

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
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oh 3:18 71:11 89:4

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oklahoma 6:1 9:23

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old 65:15 100:3

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omits 88:6

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once 5:7 16:3 26:20

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operation 19:25

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opinion 36:9 71:22

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135:16 154:7

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overreaching

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[nov - overstepped] Page 21

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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overview 13:19

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owned 79:21 80:8,9

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phase 14:15 15:22

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phases 15:24

[overview - phases] Page 22

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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phil 70:7

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phoenix 10:18,21

phone 3:19 139:6

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[phil - process] Page 23

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
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