1 NATIONAL INDIAN GAMING COMMISSION

2 REGULATORY REVIEW

3

4

5

6

7

8 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

9 MAY 16, 2011

10 9:00 A.M.

11

12

13

14 MYSTIC LAKE CASINO AND RESORT

15 2330 SIOUX TRAIL NW

16 PRIOR LAKE, MINNESOTA

17

18

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20

21

22

23 Taken by: Dana S. Anderson-Linnell

24 Job No. 331335

25 Pages 1 - 120

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1 APPEARANCES:

2

3 TRACIE STEVENS, CHAIRWOMAN, NATIONAL INDIAN

4 GAMING COMMISSION

5

6 LAEL ECHO-HAWK, COUNSEL TO THE CHAIR

7

8 CHRISTOPHER WHITE, NIGC COMPTROLLER

9

10 JOHN GUERBER, NIGC REGION DIRECTOR

11

12 LINDA DURBIN, NIGC FIELD INVESTIGATOR

13

14 GREG LITTLEJOHN, HO-CHUNK NATION OF WISCONSIN

15

16 DOUG GREENGRASS

17

18 EDMORE GREEN

19

20 EUGENE "RIBS" WHITEBIRD, LEECH LAKE TRIBE

21

22 ALAN SHIVELY, COMMISSION CHAIRPERSON, LAC VIEUX

23 DESERT TRIBAL COUNCIL

24

25 ELLIOT MILHOLLIN, HOBBS, STRAUSS, DEAN & WALKER

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1 APPEARANCES CONTINUED:

2

3 BRAD ANDERSON, DIRECTOR OF INTERNAL COMPLIANCE,

4 BOIS FORTE BAND OF MINNESOTA CHIPPEWA

5

6 DORIS DAHL, INTERNAL AUDITOR, FOND DU LAC BAND OF

7 MINNESOTA CHIPPEWA

8

9 AINDRY DE LA CAMPA, COMPLIANCE AGENT, MICCOSUKEE

10 TRIBE OF INDIANS OF FLORIDA

11

12 THOMAS DECORA, CHIEF COMPLIANCE OFFICER, WINNEBAGO

13 TRIBE OF NEBRASKA

14

15 LOU FRILLMAN

16

17 ED HANSON, GENERAL MANAGER, WHITE EARTH BAND OF

18 MINNESOTA CHIPPEWA TRIBE

19

20 CHRISTIE HAVERKAMP, SPECIAL PROJECT DIVISION,

21 WHITE EARTH BAND OF MINNESOTA CHIPPEWA TRIBE

22

23 DIXIE KAPAYOU, COMMISSIONER, SAC AND FAX TRIBE

24 OF THE MISSISSIPPI IN IOWA

25

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1 APPEARANCES CONTINUED:

2

3 ROBERT LATTERGRASS, ECON DEV/CASINO EXPANSION

4 PROJECT COORDINATOR, TURTLE MOUNTAIN BAND OF

5 CHIPPEWA INDIANS

6

7 BECKY MAJZNER, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF

8 GAMING, MILLE LACS BAND OF MINNESOTA CHIPPEWA TRIBE

9

10 DIANA MANRIQUE, SR. GAMING AGENT, MICCOSUKEE TRIBE

11 OF INDIANS OF FLORIDA

12

13 DEBRA MORRISON, GAMING REGULATORY AUTHORITY - BOARD

14 MEMBER, MILLE LACS BAND OF MINNESOTA CHIPPEWA TRIBE

15

16 ROBERT NANOMANTUBE, CHAIRMAN, SAC AND FOX NATION OF

17 MISSOURI IN KANSAS AND NEBRASKA

18

19 DAMON PAYER, VICE-CHAIRMAN, WINNEBAGO TRIBE OF

20 NEBRASKA

21

22 DAWN PILCHER, VICE-CHAIRMAN, SAC AND FOX NATION OF

23 MISSOURI IN KANSAS AND NEBRASKA

24

25

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1 APPEARANCES CONTINUED:

2

3 DENNIS PUZZ, STAFF ATTORNEY, MILLE LACS BAND OF

4 MINNESOTA CHIPPEWA TRIBE

5

6 SHAWN ROBERTS, COMMISSIONER, SAC AND FOX TRIBE

7 OF THE MISSISSIPPI IN IOWA

8

9 LORRIANE ROUSSEAU, GAMING COMMISSION CHAIRPERSON,

10 SISSETON-WAHPETON OYATE OF THE LAKE TRAVERSE

11 RESERVATION

12

13 RAE ANN SMITH, RISK MANAGER/GAMING COMMISSION REC,

14 WHITE EARTH BAND OF MINNESOTA CHIPPEWA

15

16 CHRISTINA THOMAS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE

17 OF GAMING, MILLE LACS BAND OF MINNESOTA CHIPPEWA

18

19 MIKE WACKER, GENERAL COUNSEL, MILLE LACS BAND OF

20 MINNESOTA CHIPPEWA

21

22 CONNIE WAITNER, DIRECTOR OF COMPLIANCE AND

23 REGULATORY AFFAIRS, LITTLE RIVER BAND OF OTTAWA

24 INDIANS

25

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1 APPEARANCES CONTINUED:

2

3 BRENT WITTENBERG

4

5 KYRON WOLFE, SECRETARY/TREASURER, WINNEBAGO TRIBE

6 OF NEBRASKA

7

8 BEATRICE YOUNG BEAR, COMMISSION CHAIRWOMAN,

9 SAC AND FAX TRIBE OF THE MISSISSIPPI IN IOWA

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2

3 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Good morning.

4 Good morning. Can everyone hear me okay? Thank

5 you. If everyone can take a seat, we'll go ahead

6 and get started. We just wanted to make sure that

7 all the folks that were out registering had the

8 opportunity to come in and grab something to eat

9 and sit down.

10 And to begin, first I'd like to turn over

11 the microphone to Vice Chairman Glynn Crooks of the

12 Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux community. And with him

13 is Leonard Wabasha.

14 MR. CROOKS: I've been asked to come

15 over and say a few words of welcome, and it will be

16 a very few words of welcome. Unlike most of your

17 politicians who can stand up here all day long,

18 that's not going to be me. A lot of times I don't

19 really like to give welcomes here over at the

20 casino, because if you lost the night before,

21 they're going to look to me to get your money back.

22 But the good news is you are not getting your money

23 back.

24 (Laughter.)

25 MR. CROOKS: But on behalf of my fellow

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1 business counsel and officers, Chairman Stanley

2 Crooks, secretary/treasurer, Keith Anderson and

3 myself, I'd like to welcome all of you to our

4 community. If you get a chance to go out by the

5 hotel entrance, there's a little calorie [ph.]

6 there, and there is a whole stuffed buffalo in

7 there that you might take a look at. That used to

8 be in my house. And I got tired of feeding it, so

9 I got it over here.

10 But I'm not going to take up too much of

11 your time, because I know you have a lot of things

12 to do today. And unfortunately, Tracie has to

13 catch a plane this afternoon, so we want to make

14 sure she gets all the things she needs told to you

15 while she is here, because she doesn't get out here

16 much, because she is always in Washington keeping

17 very busy for the people. And we appreciate all

18 the hard work she does.

19 So welcome, everybody. And now I'd like to

20 also introduce to you Leonard Wabasha, our cultural

21 resources director from the Lower Sioux community

22 to say a prayer for you today. So would everybody

23 please rise.

24 (Prayer said by Mr. Wabasha in Native

25 language.)

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1 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you, Vice

2 Chairman. My name is Tracie Stevens. I'm a member

3 of the Tulalip Tribes in Washington. I'm the

4 Chairwoman of the National Indian Gaming

5 Commission.

6 I want to also recognize the staff that we

7 have here today. We have a regional director,

8 John Guerber, many of you know and work with John.

9 He's in the back of the room there. We also have

10 our field investigators, Linda Durbin, who is

11 sitting right over here. And Shawnna Ellis right

12 back there. She's new to our team. And many of

13 you will get to know her as well. To my left is

14 our comptroller from Washington, D.C., Chris White.

15 And to my right is counselor to the Chairwoman,

16 Lael Echo-Hawk.

17 I appreciate everybody attending today. As

18 many of you know, we are in the process of

19 reviewing our regulations. And this process really

20 began when I took office and the three

21 commissioners sat down and strategized really on

22 what we would do with our term. And it is one of

23 our major -- four major priorities that we've

24 undertaken. We thought to improve our consultation

25 process, which we feel that we have done well by

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1 changing the format, changing when we involve

2 tribes and giving adequate notice. And we also

3 have a consultation draft policy out that's on our

4 website that will become -- you know, when we

5 receive comments from tribes -- a new policy for

6 us.

7 The second thing we're doing is trying to

8 improve our technical assistance and training.

9 That's under the direction of our vice chairman,

10 Steffani Cochran. And we are revamping that

11 process and we've done some outreach to all of you

12 on how we can improve our training and technical

13 assistance opportunities for tribes.

14 The other thing we are doing is agency

15 operations review, which is really taking a look at

16 how the Agency itself operates in terms of

17 management and organization. And that's something

18 that is being overseen by a commissioner Dan

19 Little. And, you know, we just believe that we

20 should be just as concerned about how we run our

21 operations as we are with how you run yours. We

22 all come from tribal communities. And we have all

23 gone through the gauntlet of running tribal

24 organizations or being some part of a tribal

25 government or tribal casino operation. And good

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1 management and good organization affects the output

2 that we provide to tribes. So that's three of the

3 major initiatives, but what we're here for today is

4 a regulatory review process.

5 Many of us have -- and most of us have

6 actually with the commission and our senior staff

7 worked for tribes or worked at casinos and had for

8 a long time sat where you all are sitting

9 representing either our own tribe or another tribe

10 with regard to draft regulations. So we've

11 undertaken this -- we started last fall with a

12 Notice of Inquiry. We asked for priorities from

13 tribes. And we did hear back now, and Lael will

14 talk more specifically about what we're here to

15 talk about and how we've laid out this regulatory

16 review process. And we'll start on that in a

17 moment.

18 So I really appreciate everybody taking the

19 time to be here today. We have many more of these.

20 This is number 4 of 33; 4 of 33. So we have a long

21 way to go. You'll see there's only one

22 commissioner here. What we're trying to do -- and

23 I was telling Vice Chairman Crooks that we want to

24 be very careful with our resources. So we're

25 tag-teaming. Each of the commissioners are taking

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1 turns going out to each of these just to conserve

2 or budget, but also not to wear ourselves out. The

3 same thing as with the staff that will be

4 attending, we're just doing this so we don't burn

5 out and we don't burn through money. So you'll see

6 if you -- as time goes by, you'll see different

7 commissioners, you'll see the different senior

8 staff. But we all are prepared to talk openly

9 about any of the draft policies, draft regulations

10 that are out there, hear your input. Because what

11 this is really about today is you telling us about

12 the -- your concerns with regulations, how we might

13 improve them, what your views are or what we've

14 proposed, how it will affect your tribe.

15 What we've found as we've gone through the

16 Notice of Inquiry a few months ago is that what

17 works for one tribe in one part of the country may

18 not work for another tribe in another part of the

19 country based on their Compact, based on the games

20 that are allowed. And sitting in this open forum

21 allows all of you to hear what effect any proposed

22 regulation or concerns or questions you might have,

23 how one tribe may view something and how it may

24 affect your tribe or a proposal from another tribe

25 in open forum.

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1 So what we would like to do is go around

2 the table and also into the audience so that we can

3 get everybody's name and proper introductions. I'd

4 also invite any tribal leaders to come to the

5 table. We've reserved the table for tribal leaders

6 or their designees. So I would be happy if anyone

7 would like to move up to the table to please feel

8 free.

9 We'll start to the right and we're going to

10 go through the room and if you state their name and

11 the tribe that they represent, that would be great.

12 (Introductions of those present off the

13 record.)

14 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you, John,

15 for taking the microphone. So let's jump right on

16 in. I'm going to turn over the microphone to

17 Lael Echo-Hawk. She's counselor to the Chairwoman,

18 and she'll go through where we are at in this

19 process on regulatory review, what the topics of

20 discussion are. And as you'll see from the agenda,

21 most of the day is for you. We'll briefly explain

22 the process, where we're at, what's to come and

23 then open the floor for comments on any of these

24 parts. So right now, Lael Echo-Hawk.

25 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Good morning. My name

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1 is Lael Echo-Hawk. I'm a member of the Kitkehahki

2 Band of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma. I'm very

3 honored to be here and appreciate the welcome this

4 morning. I'm counselor to Chairwoman Stevens. And

5 one of my primary tasks has been this regulation --

6 regulatory review. I know we see -- we saw some of

7 you in Rapid City this -- earlier this year. It

8 was much, much colder than it is today. So we're

9 enjoying the weather right now. And so I'm just

10 going to get right into this.

11 The PowerPoint that you are going to see

12 today is very much a 30,000-level-foot approach.

13 Can everyone see behind us? Should we move? Is

14 everyone good? If you can't hear, just let us

15 know. Also just some logistics, and I'll reiterate

16 this at the end of the presentation, and that is

17 that we need -- anyone who speaks, please introduce

18 yourself, state your name. This is very important.

19 We need to make sure that the transcript is

20 correct. And Dana over there is going to jump up

21 and down and yell at us to stop if we don't get

22 that information. So it's very important. We want

23 to make sure that the transcript is accurate and

24 that -- A, that she can hear, and B, that we

25 attribute the comments to the correct person. So

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1 we'll remind you of that periodically throughout

2 the day as well.

3 So this process is the -- is the regulation

4 review. It's also part of the consultation -- the

5 commitment to consultation and improving the

6 relationship between tribes as outlined by the

7 Commission. Executive Order 13,175, the

8 Consultation and Coordination with Indian Tribal

9 Governments. Executive order is -- the Commission

10 is taking the spirit and intent of that very

11 seriously. And this process is -- follows along

12 those lines, particularly Section 3(c), which is

13 underlined here. That is in determining whether to

14 establish federal standards, that the Commission

15 consult or the agencies consult with tribal

16 officials before we draft and put forward any

17 standards. And that's what we're doing today. We

18 are in the drafting phase of one of three phases in

19 this rulemaking process. And we'll talk about that

20 a little more. But this is really the

21 consultation, talking to tribes about these

22 proposed standards before they're actually proposed

23 and if they are registered notice, these are just

24 discussion drafts. What you see on our website is

25 discussion draft only and that nothing is written

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1 in stone. We're here to hear your comments on

2 those discussion drafts and take those comments

3 seriously when we consider whether or not to

4 promulgate or to put forward a proposed reg or even

5 a final reg.

6 So most of you know this. We go over this

7 just in case you don't. The process that the

8 Commission has outlined is sort of a three-phase

9 approach. There is a preliminary drafting phase

10 where we'll have consultations, meetings such as

11 this and written comments to be submitted. Then if

12 we -- once we get through that particular phase and

13 we find that there is perhaps a need to amend a

14 rule, to put forward a new rule, we enter it in the

15 Notice of Proposed Rulemaking phase, which is an --

16 approximately, at a minimum, 60-days comment

17 period, and that also will involve some

18 consultation meetings like this and written

19 comments.

20 Finally, if there is a final rule put

21 forward, then there is a 45 -- minimum 45-day

22 written comment period. Could be more, could be --

23 it kind of depends on the rule.

24 And then -- but there are no consultation

25 meetings set for those -- for that particular

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1 phase. All the consultations, these meetings that

2 we're having today like this happen during the

3 first two phases.

4 There are five groups of regulations. If

5 you looked at the Notice of Inquiry, you'll see

6 that we have clumped the regulations into groups.

7 These group numbers do not indicate priority at

8 all. They were developed after we considered a

9 number of factors including subject matter, the

10 comments that were received during the Notice of

11 Inquiry period and the amount of time and resources

12 that might be needed to address certain regulations

13 versus others. There are a number of regulations,

14 some of which we'll talk about today that appear to

15 be sort of looking -- things that we can get out of

16 the way, it's not going to require a huge amount of

17 resources. So we've tried to balance those with

18 other regulations that might require more. So

19 we've got that question. We've received that

20 question a number of times about whether or not

21 these group numbers indicate priority. And they do

22 not at all. It's just a way for us to sort of

23 juggle all the balls.

24 We have -- as you can see in your handouts

25 and on the website, there are preliminary

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1 discussion drafts. These are initial working

2 drafts only. There's nothing, again, set in stone.

3 We are asking for comments on these. And if we

4 need to refine them, revise them, scrap them and

5 start over, that's what we're here to hear about.

6 This meeting is being transcribed. All

7 written comments and the transcripts of these

8 meetings will be posted on the website under the

9 tribal consultation button. There is a button on

10 the left-hand side that says Tribal Consultation.

11 If you go there you can see all the transcripts and

12 written comments as they come in. So again, it's

13 very important that you state your name. And you

14 may have to spell it. Little bit like being in

15 court, we apologize, but we do want to make sure

16 that the transcripts are accurate.

17 The commitment by the Commission has been

18 and continues to be that every comment received

19 will be considered and reviewed. I know that all

20 the commissioners personally read every one of the

21 70-odd comments that came in during the Notice of

22 Inquiry. We had giant binders that we were hauling

23 around with us. But everything that you send in we

24 do consider. Any proposed or final rule will

25 include a summary of the comments that were

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1 received, much like the Notice of Inquiry. The

2 Notice of Regulatory Review agenda, it summarized

3 the comments that we received from the Notice of

4 Inquiry process and the Commission is committed to

5 a clear and transparent process. There's also been

6 a mandate by the President, and the Commission is

7 taking that very seriously.

8 So this is the meat of why we're here.

9 These are the -- we're going to talk about the

10 group 1. And then today is the beginning -- the

11 first consultation for group 2, which we'll talk

12 about towards the end of the PowerPoint. But

13 again, this is a very 30,000-level-foot discussion,

14 just an overview for those of you who might not be

15 as into regs as I am and you might not have read

16 them all -- or the discussion draft as thoroughly

17 as we all have. The group 1, we're looking at the

18 Fee Regulation, which is part 514. Possible repeal

19 of review and approval of existing ordinance or

20 resolutions, this is part 523.

21 Part 559, Facility Licensing. And then

22 proposed regs, which is the Buy Indian Act type of

23 regulation.

24 Finally, the Minimum Internal Control

25 Standards for Class III Gaming, this is a process

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1 question. The four other regulations are potential

2 regulations or revisions. The Minimum Internal

3 Control Standards for Class III Gaming, what we're

4 talking about here is what do we do with this

5 issue. And I'll talk a little bit more about that

6 in a minute.

7 THE COURT REPORTER: Lael, could you

8 please slow down a little bit.

9 MS. ECHO-HAWK: So in your packets you

10 should have received a discussion draft regulation

11 for part 515, the fee regulation. And the section

12 numbers on the PowerPoint are also -- they are in

13 your -- obviously they are listed in the

14 regulations, so might help you follow along. But

15 here's the very -- here's a summary of the changes.

16 The fee calculation is proposed to be made

17 based on a gaming operation's fiscal year rather

18 on -- fiscal year rather than on the calendar year.

19 The current regulation -- the basis of fees on a

20 calendar year, well, I know a number -- great

21 number of gaming operations operate on a different

22 fiscal year than they do on a calendar year. And

23 in order to help with the calculation and ensure

24 its accuracy, the Commission -- and we heard

25 comments that -- basing the fee calculation on the

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1 gaming operation's fiscal year was a better way to

2 come up with a more accurate number. And so that

3 has been proposed in the draft regulation.

4 The fee rate is scheduled in the draft reg

5 will be published on March 1st rather than on

6 February 1st to allow more time to come up with an

7 accurate preliminary fee rate. This gives the

8 Commission a month to consider to, A, get all the

9 statements in, make sure that we've got accurate

10 numbers to base the fee rate on so that we won't

11 have to adjust it, or the idea is that we will not

12 have to adjust it. And if we do, it's a smaller

13 adjustment when the final fee rate comes out.

14 Remove amortization from

15 Section 514 (b)(2)(ii) to reflect existing

16 practices. This is more of a housekeeping change.

17 It's -- amortization isn't -- where it's placed in

18 there in that term is not a term that should be

19 used in that particular section. So we're cleaning

20 that up.

21 Quarterly payments. We went from quarterly

22 payments to biannual payments, now going back to

23 quarterly payments. We've heard from tribes that

24 this is going to be very helpful in terms of their

25 accounting practices. And so we're moving back to

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1 that. And the proposed draft proposed to move back

2 to quarterly payments instead of biannual.

3 This dis -- was very difficult to word, but

4 we're -- the second change on this slide is

5 clarifying that when computing fees, that the

6 gaming operation uses the actual calculation. This

7 is housekeeping. It points the reader back to the

8 section of the regulation that actually defines

9 what that calculation is. It's difficult to

10 summarize in a PowerPoint slide, but basically

11 we're just pointing the reader back to the formula

12 for calculating the gross -- assessable gross

13 revenues.

14 There is also a -- we inserted a section

15 that provides for the gaming operation to notify us

16 when they change their fiscal years. So if you

17 move from a September fiscal year to a December

18 fiscal year, then you notify us so that we can make

19 the appropriate changes that we need to make.

20 This next section is a new section and

21 something that we asked tribes about and received

22 an overwhelmingly favorable response. And that is

23 creating a late payment system prior to Notice of

24 Violation for when fees are submitted late. This

25 is something that was proposed in the Notice of

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1 Inquiry. We asked tribes if this was something

2 that they would like to see or something similar so

3 that when a tribe submits its payments late, that

4 they are not penalized to the point of a Notice of

5 Violation, that there should be some -- we heard

6 from tribes that there should be a lower level

7 before you get to this Notice of Violation, and

8 that's what's been proposed here. This is new

9 Proposed Section 514(c). And what it does is it

10 defines what a late payment is versus a failure to

11 pay your annual fee. So if you merely make a late

12 payment and this is a payment submitted to the NIGC

13 within 91 days of the end of your fiscal year, then

14 that's just a late payment. And for that, you

15 would get sort of this ticket. If you look in the

16 regulation, you'll see that we've proposed that

17 as -- the later you are, the higher your percentage

18 or the dollar amount of this fine that you would

19 receive. And that's for payments that are made up

20 until 91 days from the end of your fiscal year.

21 A failure to pay an annual fee or for

22 payments made after 91 days of the fiscal year, and

23 that is identified as a substantial violation that

24 could result in a Notice of Violation and possible

25 closure order.

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1 So we try to distinguish it to -- we try to

2 give the flexibility for a tribe when things

3 happen. I think in Rapid City we heard someone

4 tell us their CPA had to go and have major heart

5 surgery, and so they were unable to complete --

6 finish their financials and do everything they

7 needed to do to get their fine then to us. They

8 received a Notice of Violation, because they were

9 late submitting their fees. And so we don't -- you

10 know, we obviously -- the NIGC is funded by these

11 fees, so we need to make sure that they are in and

12 that they're in on time but also provide that

13 leeway for tribes so that if situations were to

14 come up that they need to submit it late, that

15 there is a mechanism in there that you are not

16 automatically hit with a Notice of Violation, which

17 is a substantial -- can cause a substantial

18 negative impact to a gaming operation.

19 Another new section, this is the

20 fingerprint processing fee section. It clarifies

21 the NIGC's process for collecting the fees and

22 states that the NIGC will publish the fee amount

23 biannually. We have a couple questions that we

24 need some help with. Actually, let me just back up

25 a little bit. The late payment system, one of the

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1 questions that's asked in that regulation is: What

2 is the dollar amount? So when we -- when a tribe

3 is late at certain periods of time, do we base the

4 fine on a percentage of the amount that's owed? Is

5 there a set dollar amount? It's just automatic for

6 every tribe? We left that number blank. And we

7 are really looking for some input on what that

8 number should be. That is in -- if you look in

9 your handout, it's on page 5 from lines 9 to 20.

10 That's where you can see we left some blanks and we

11 need some input from tribes on that.

12 Additionally we've asked whether or not the

13 term "admission fee" in Section 514(b) should be

14 changed to "entry fee." That is what we view to be

15 housekeeping, changing the terminology that's used

16 in the regulation to be more of an industry

17 standard. So for example, when you have a poker

18 tournament, typically those -- the entry fees are

19 the fees that a player pays to join are called

20 entry fees, not admission fees. And we've received

21 questions back at the Agency about whether or not

22 admission fee for, say, a concert is to be included

23 in this -- in the calculation. And we wanted -- so

24 we wanted to clarify this, perhaps change the

25 terminology to be more consistent with industry

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1 standards. That is not in the proposed regulation,

2 but it is something that we'd like to hear from

3 tribes about; and similarly whether or not

4 tournament fees should be included in the examples

5 of this entry fee or admission fees. Again, trying

6 to just use industry terminology to perhaps clarify

7 some questions that we receive at the Agency.

8 The Notice of Inquiry asks if we should

9 consider -- or if the Agency should change the

10 term -- change the definition of "gross gaming

11 revenue" to be consistent with GAAP, the Generally

12 Accepted Accounting Principles for the purposes of

13 calculating fees. We didn't make this change in

14 the draft regulation. And the reason for that was

15 that as we looked more into GAAP, we learned that

16 that definition is inconsistent with the definition

17 of IGRA, the gross gaming revenue defined by IGRA

18 which is basically wager less payout, very

19 generically, and that the terms that are used in

20 GAAP are different than are used in the Act and we

21 have to remain obviously consistent with the

22 statutory definition. We also heard that feedback

23 from tribes in response to the Notice of Inquiry,

24 so we didn't make that change in the draft. But

25 that we do have a number of -- I guess pretty

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1 consistently we have tribes asking us: What does

2 wager mean? Can I deduct, you know, a match play

3 from the calculation? How do I calculate a win if

4 we've issued a match play, and how do I deduct that

5 from the calculation of gross gaming revenue?

6 And so the other question that came up and

7 what we want to propose to tribes is whether or not

8 the Commission should define what a wager is and

9 what a payout is. We didn't make those changes in

10 the draft. We think that that might help clarify

11 what -- how you calculate gross gaming revenue, but

12 we do need to hear from tribes on that.

13 The written comment period for the draft

14 regulation closes on May 31st. You can send that

15 to "reg.review@nigc.gov." That will be up on the

16 slide later. You can mail them to us, you can fax

17 them to us. All those comments will be posted

18 online. If you are interested in seeing what other

19 tribe's comments are, you can go and look on the

20 website as well.

21 Then moving on. Part 523, which is the

22 Review and Approval of Existing Ordinance Or

23 Resolutions, this was something that was put in

24 place when the Agency first came into sort of its

25 own and began enacting regulations. It applies

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1 only to gaming ordinances enacted by tribes prior

2 to January 22, 1993 that weren't also submitted to

3 the Chairperson for review and approval. This is

4 obsolete. We don't have any more of these gaming

5 ordinances or resolutions, and the recommendation

6 has been that we should repeal it. And so that

7 question is out there for tribes.

8 So moving on to Part 559, which is the

9 facility licensing regulation. Most of you know,

10 and I apologize it's not in the handout, but there

11 is a discussion draft regulation on our website.

12 It's in the new section on the very first page. It

13 is also in the group 1 tab of the Tribal

14 Consultation section of the website. The

15 discussion draft was sent out last Thursday

16 evening, was put on the website and distributed.

17 So the Notice of Inquiry asked if --

18 Part 559 -- facility licensing regulation should be

19 revised. We heard many, many comments on this; and

20 not only in consultation, but in tribal letters

21 that were sent in. And they all supported -- the

22 majority of them supported reopening this

23 particular part for review. There was a number of

24 concerns about the process by which the part was

25 adopted and some concerns about the NIGC's

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1 authority over EPHS issues because they are also

2 covered by other federal agencies, and a lot of the

3 comments said this was an encroachment on tribal

4 sovereignty.

5 So what does a discussion draft do? This

6 again comes primarily from what we've heard from

7 tribal comments in response to the Notice of

8 Inquiry. And these are the proposed changes to

9 that draft regulation: It changes the time frame

10 for tribes to submit Notice of the Facility License

11 from 120 to 60 days with a one-time 60-day

12 extension at the Chair's election, if the Chair

13 decides that we need additional time.

14 A number of the comments that were received

15 from tribes said that this 120-day period was

16 arbitrary, sort of plucked out of the air and it

17 doesn't make a lot of sense that tribes need a more

18 expedited process. We threw this number out there.

19 If you have concerns about the 60-day --

20 plus-60-day process, please let us know. This is

21 in Section 559.2.

22 The -- there's also sort of a -- kind of a

23 savings clause, and that is that the Chair shall

24 expedite the process for this verification when

25 circumstances permit. So if at all possible, the

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1 Chair can expedite the process, make sure that

2 the -- you get the information that you need from

3 the Agency as quickly as possible. But again, if

4 you have concerns about this time frame, please let

5 us know.

6 So we've also changed 559.3 so the tribe

7 just sends us -- just -- it's a notification, will

8 send us newly issued or renewed facility licensing,

9 facility license within 30 days of issuance. And

10 it includes an attestation certifying that the

11 tribe has determined the construction and

12 maintenance of the gaming facility and operation of

13 gaming is conducted in a manner which adequately

14 protects the environment and public health and

15 safety. This is verbatim from the Act. This is

16 all that that will require. A number of the

17 comments that were received from tribes said that:

18 We shouldn't have to go through this data

19 collecting, and are you going to tell us whether or

20 not our laws are correct or, you know, are enough?

21 This is areas covered by other federal agencies and

22 the -- that the NIGC didn't really have a role or

23 the expertise in this particular area. So we tried

24 to address those concerns here.

25 The proposed rule has a Notice of Facility

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1 Licensing sent to the Chair within 30 days of when

2 the license is terminated or expires or if the

3 gaming operation facility location closes or

4 reopens.

5 We also tried to clarify what a

6 closure/reopening is. And if you look on the draft

7 rule, it's 559.5. And the draft rule states that a

8 tribe doesn't need to provide notification of a

9 seasonal closure or a temporary closure with a

10 duration of less than fill-in-the-blank days. We

11 didn't put in a number of days. But the comments

12 that we heard were: Do we have to notify you if we

13 close our operation for -- you know, to replace the

14 carpets? If we close our operation three days out

15 of the week, do we have to send you a notification

16 for that? So we need to hear from you about when

17 is it reasonable for the tribe to send us a

18 notification that they have closed, what is that

19 number of days. And we've left that blank. And it

20 is a question that's out there, and we need to hear

21 input from tribes.

22 We also changed the rate in I think a

23 pretty significant way. And that is by instead of

24 requiring all this information and documentation to

25 be sent in every time a facility license is sent in

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1 or the first time at a minimum, that the Indian

2 lands and environmental public health and safety

3 documentation would be provided only if the Chair

4 requests.

5 And then finally to move us into the 21st

6 Century, 20th Century depending on where you're at

7 for us is electronic submissions are going to be

8 accepted as well. We're figuring out a mechanism

9 for that. Email, we may set up an email box or

10 something. I know that that was something that

11 tribes asked: Do we have to send you in, you know,

12 hard copies? We're trying to move our agency

13 forward in technology.

14 This comment period for the preliminary

15 draft closes on June 17th. And again, you can send

16 your comments to "reg.review@nigc.gov" by email or

17 by mail, fax, et cetera. And again, all of those

18 comments will be posted.

19 The next proposed reg is this Buy Indian

20 Act or buy Indian type of regulation. We've

21 received a number of comments from tribes, and they

22 were all generally supportive of this proposed

23 regulation. It would allow the NIGC to utilize

24 federal set-asides for qualified Indian-owned

25 businesses when purchasing goods, services and

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1 property on an Indian reservation. So for example,

2 we're coming out to Indian Country to hold a

3 meeting, we could use -- we can use this regulation

4 to be precisely where we are today, we can purchase

5 a room, food, those kind of things at an

6 Indian-owned operation or hotel. And we intend to

7 distribute a draft regulation soon. We're still

8 working on that. That should come out within the

9 next couple of weeks.

10 So finally, in the group 1 section here, we

11 have this question about: What do we do with the

12 class III MICS? This has been a topic that has

13 been pending since the pre-decision in 2006. What

14 does the Agency do with its current regulations,

15 Part 542? We've heard a range of options. What

16 structure do we use to address this issue? We know

17 that it affects what the Chairwoman said earlier.

18 This affects every tribe differently and regions

19 differently, states differently. And we need to

20 come up with a way to deal with this issue that is

21 equitable and addresses the needs and concerns in

22 the industry.

23 Once we sort of resolve that issue, which

24 we hope to do during this group 1 process, group 5

25 we anticipate will be implementing whatever that

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1 decision is. So we do need to hear your input on

2 that. And it -- we need to figure out what we're

3 going to be doing.

4 The structures is: How do we do this? So

5 we've heard a number of things from tribes. We've

6 heard replace Part 542 with recommended guidelines.

7 We've heard that we could address this through sort

8 of an agency tribal compacting process; utilizing a

9 different fee rate for those tribes that -- there

10 is a number of tribes in California that have

11 incorporated Part 542 and authorized NIGC

12 enforcement authority, and for tribes that do that,

13 perhaps utilizing a different fee rate so that they

14 are paying for the services.

15 And then we've also heard: Maintain

16 Part 542, convene a tribal advisory committee to

17 update the current regulation. And on the

18 completely opposite end of the spectrum we've heard

19 repeal Part 542 entirely. We've got this giant

20 range of options and processes that have been

21 suggested by tribes. And we are looking for more

22 input about how we actually do that.

23 So moving on into group 2, which this is

24 the first consultation for group 2. Again,

25 discussion drafts will be distributed soon, within

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1 the next couple weeks as well. And you'll find all

2 of that on our website. We put it on the front

3 page of the news section as it's released, and we

4 try to notify regional associations. Our regional

5 directors reach out into -- talk to the gaming

6 commissions and the tribes to make sure that you

7 know when these -- the new draft regs are put up on

8 the website so you have time to review them.

9 Group 2 is about -- looks at the

10 enforcement regulations and the regulations

11 concerning proceedings before the Commission.

12 The Notice of Inquiry requested comments on

13 whether or not the NIGC should promulgate a

14 regulation authorizing the withdrawal of an NOV

15 after it's been issued. Comments -- we received a

16 number of comments on this. Some said this was

17 unnecessary to put in a regulation because there

18 was no prohibition on the withdrawal. Other

19 comments said that a specific regulation outlining

20 the process and the circumstances for withdrawal of

21 a Notice of Violation would be appropriate. And

22 others indicated that they thought only the

23 Commission should be able to withdraw a Notice of

24 Violation.

25 We also heard that perhaps we should

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1 consider having a process where a Notice of

2 Violation can be expunged after a certain number of

3 years or the noncompliance issue has been resolved,

4 much like -- I guess it's sort of the -- how a

5 criminal charge or criminal conviction can be

6 expunged after you meet a certain time frame and

7 meet the requirements for that, something similar

8 that was -- has been proposed by tribes for a

9 Notice of Violation.

10 We've also received requests to have any

11 NOVs that are posted on the website to have the

12 identifying information removed. Number of

13 comments. And, you know, I know that it's been a

14 commitment by the Commission that a Notice of

15 Violation should never be a surprise, so having a

16 voluntary compliance utilizing the ACE -- the

17 ACE -- what do we call that?

18 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Assistance

19 Compliance --

20 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Yeah, Assistance

21 Compliance Enforcement. It's an idea put forward

22 by the Commission. And I don't know what's up with

23 federal agencies, but we like acronyms. So ACE,

24 utilizing ACE to make sure that an NOI is never a

25 surprise, that the legion folks, enforcement folks

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1 are working with you to make sure that if at all

2 possible, we can bring you into compliance or bring

3 the issue -- resolve the issue so that a Notice of

4 Violation is not needed.

5 We heard that an agency policy for

6 withdrawal of a Notice of Violation or this

7 voluntary compliance is sufficient. And then we've

8 heard that if the NIGC and the tribe had been in

9 discussions and compliance was -- the tribe was

10 unable to come into compliance, then an NOV should

11 be issued. And if an NOV is actually issued, then

12 no withdrawal is necessary.

13 So again, we've got this wide range of

14 ideas and options and something that we'd like to

15 hear back from tribes on.

16 We also asked whether or not the rules for

17 proceedings before Commission should be reviewed.

18 Now, this is something -- we've had a couple of

19 meetings internally on this. Some of the

20 non-attorneys in the room, their ears were just

21 bleeding, because we were talking about, you know,

22 the civil procedure and how many days before this

23 and motions and all this stuff that lawyers really

24 like, but it's very process-oriented and might be

25 boring for other folks. But the comments that we

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1 received were that we needed to make sure -- and

2 this has been a concern at the Agency, is that

3 there is not set time frames. And without set time

4 frames for appeals and hearing back from the

5 Commission, that things can sort of get lost in the

6 shuffle, and that a tribe is waiting for a long

7 time for a response to something that is very

8 urgent to that tribe. And so how can we ensure

9 that there is better process -- better due process

10 given during the appeals process or during a

11 process where there are proceedings before the

12 Commission.

13 We heard concerns that if we did do this,

14 than that more formal process might be more costly,

15 it might cost the tribes a lot, have to hire more

16 attorneys to figure out what these processes are

17 and it might slow the process down. We also heard

18 that we should consolidate all those regulations

19 regarding these proceedings into a single

20 regulation and put them in one place so it was

21 easier to follow.

22 So the written comment period for the

23 preliminary fee draft regulation closes on

24 May 31st. The written comment period for the

25 facility licensing regulation again closes on

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1 June 17th. We anticipate having some discussion

2 drafts in the Buy Indian regulation out shortly as

3 well as for the enforcement proceedings and the

4 proceedings before the Commission. So you'll see

5 those on the website shortly. Hopefully our region

6 people will reach out to your tribe to make sure

7 that you know when those -- when those go up so

8 that you can take a look at them for the next time

9 you come to one of our consultations.

10 So that is it for us in terms of this very

11 30,000-level-foot overview of what we have going

12 on. And I'll turn it back over to Chairwoman

13 Stevens.

14 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you, Lael.

15 And I appreciate everyone's patience in sitting

16 through the presentation here. This was -- this is

17 designed to just inform and get everyone up to

18 speed if anyone didn't have the opportunity to read

19 some of the material prior to coming here or if

20 this is the first consultation that you've been to.

21 So I appreciate your patience. That's the part --

22 this is just the part where we do our talking and

23 sort of get it out of the way.

24 What we would like to do at this point

25 is -- also a reminder if there are any tribal

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1 leaders here, we've reserved the tables for tribal

2 leaders or their designees, whoever that might be.

3 So feel free; if there is anyone who would like to

4 come sit at the table, please join us. Otherwise

5 we're opening the floor right now for comments.

6 And we might take a few and then take a break,

7 because I know we've been in here for almost an

8 hour going through a number of several -- a number

9 of regulations and the drafts that we have.

10 So with that, I'd like to open the floor

11 for any comments on any of these parts. We've got

12 several in group 1 for fees, the Buy Indian,

13 facility licensing, the repeal, which is pretty

14 simple.

15 And then group 2 on enforcement proceedings

16 and the Class III, what you all here would like the

17 process to be to address the Class III, Minimum

18 Internal Control Standards, MICS.

19 So the floor is open. If anyone would like

20 to step up to a microphone or we can have a

21 microphone delivered to you. If you have any

22 questions, need clarification on the substance on

23 the drafts, on the process.

24 Yes, sir, at the end of table. If you

25 could state your name and the tribe you're with.

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1 MR. LITTLEJOHN: Yes. Greg Littlejohn,

2 Ho-Chunk Nation of Wisconsin. I was just thinking

3 as you were giving your presentation, you were

4 talking about earlier, burnout. We just went

5 through our budgetary process which concluded last

6 Friday. The comment -- the question I have really

7 is on the regulatory -- the annual fee itself.

8 We'd all love a reduction, but then you have your

9 bills to pay.

10 Is this regulatory fee similar to any other

11 group in the United States, in other words, we

12 tribes subsidize you because you are

13 native-friendly, but is it fashioned after any

14 other regulatory agency?

15 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: I'm thinking the

16 other agencies that --

17 MR. LITTLEJOHN: In other words, OMB

18 provides the funding for other regulatory agencies.

19 Do you get my question?

20 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Well, yes, I think

21 I do. We don't get federal appropriations from

22 Congress. That's very different -- trying to think

23 of agencies that you all deal with, BIA, IHS.

24 There is federal appropriations that come from

25 Congress every budget cycle that -- the President

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1 puts forward their budget for all of his agencies

2 and then Congress negotiates and passes a budget

3 and then you all learn what the budget is for BIA

4 or IHS or other entities from which tribes will get

5 money or that agency that deals with tribes will

6 receive money.

7 We are not that way. Ours is completely

8 based on a fee system that is set up by the

9 Commission against gross gaming revenue. We get no

10 federal appropriations at all. There used to be a

11 cap on the amount of fees that we could obtain

12 or -- but that was removed in 2006, I believe, with

13 the technical correction to the Act. And that's

14 what we're operating on.

15 I think the other agency is the FCC -- SEC

16 -- SEC?

17 MS. ECHO-HAWK: SEC.

18 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: SEC. They charge

19 back against those they regulate. Chris, are there

20 others?

21 MR. CHRIS WHITE: [Unintelligible.]

22 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, I can't

23 hear him.

24 MR. CHRIS WHITE: It's -- I'm not an

25 expert by any means in regulatory structure, the

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1 rest of the federal government. What I do know, it

2 is becoming common practice to have regulatory

3 bodies be funded by the industries that they

4 regulate. The two that come to my mind are the SEC

5 that's funded through filing fees for companies

6 going into the public financial sector and the

7 Nuclear Regulatory Commission, which I'm almost

8 sure is -- I believe it's 100 percent funded by

9 that -- by the nuclear industry.

10 So it does occur. Obviously we're -- we

11 operate under the framework put forth by IGRA. And

12 I wasn't around when this Commission was founded

13 and when they originally wrote the fee regs, but I

14 do know that every effort was made to stick to the

15 framework set forth by the Congress.

16 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Mr. Littlejohn,

17 does that answer your question?

18 MR. LITTLEJOHN: Yes. Thank you.

19 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Great. Other

20 comments?

21 Yes, sir, if I could have your name and

22 tribe.

23 MR. WHITEBIRD: Ribs Whitebird, Leech

24 Lake Tribal Council, northern Minnesota.

25 I noticed out of your Buy Indian Act it

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1 said comments [unintelligible] were generally

2 supportive of --

3 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. I'm

4 having a hard time hearing you.

5 MR. WHITEBIRD: Would you do a draft

6 resolution on the Buy Indian Act, because us at the

7 Midwest tribes, we would want that seen, and I

8 haven't heard anything on this except for today.

9 We would like to have it in -- probably all over

10 Indian country. And we as the Midwest tribes would

11 like to put it in -- into a resolution.

12 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you, sir.

13 We have not drafted a regulation. And I do want to

14 make sure clear that this would only be applied to

15 the NIGC in its operations. We don't mean to or

16 give the appearance that we are mandating this upon

17 tribes to buy Indian. This is mandating upon us,

18 the Commission and the Agency, that when we conduct

19 business and we go through our procurement process,

20 that we follow the Buy Indian Act, which is

21 permitted under the Buy Indian Act. But it's also

22 permitted under IGRA. And right now there is no

23 internal policy nor are there regulations for the

24 Agency. There are for the Department of Interior

25 for BIA for HHS and IHS, but there is none for us.

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1 And that's what we're looking to do is impose this

2 upon the NIGC so that when we buy goods when we

3 hold meetings, that we can, by law, go to Indian

4 businesses first. But we don't have a draft out

5 yet. We're still looking at what Department of

6 Interior has, what Health and Human Services has

7 and making sure that we're clear on our

8 authorities. But when we do have a draft, which

9 will be very similar to HHS and DOI, we will put it

10 up on the website. We don't want to stray too far

11 from what they've done in their regulations.

12 Does that answer your question?

13 MR. WHITEBIRD: [Unintelligible.]

14 THE COURT REPORTER: I didn't hear what

15 you said.

16 MR. WHITEBIRD: I said good enough for

17 now. You know [unintelligible] just

18 [unintelligible] about this here. Take all the

19 [unintelligible] Indian hotel [unintelligible] the

20 Indian [unintelligible] developments all over

21 Indian country. I do believe we need this on board

22 and as soon as possible. That was my comment

23 [unintelligible] speed it up, the process, look at

24 it as a commission here or a, you know, I

25 understand that -- sounds like you are just on top

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1 of it now.

2 We've been talking about this for a long

3 time around at the NCAI mass meetings and

4 [unintelligible] Buy Indian Act, it would help out

5 a lot of the tribes all over Indian country and

6 like I say, you know, you know, what's the process

7 you want us to do, through the HHS, Bureau of

8 Indian Affairs or through this Commission, because

9 I was asked by some of the other tribes to bring

10 this up. And you know, we're all going to go

11 forward with it one way or another, because, you

12 know, we're helping one another partner up. And I

13 think it's a good idea for everybody here.

14 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you. And

15 again, I do want to make clear that this regulation

16 will only be applied to the NIGC. We're not going

17 to apply this to tribes. However, certainly tribes

18 are free to enact whatever policies or laws that

19 they want with regard to buying from Indian-owned

20 businesses and certainly individual tribal

21 sovereign decision to apply Buy Indian to their own

22 businesses. Again, I just want to clarify that

23 we're only putting this regulation together for the

24 NIGC and its purchases and its business only. I

25 want to make sure I'm not trying to tell you all

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1 what you need to do. I'm trying to make sure that

2 we seek out Indian businesses and the fees and

3 really encourage economic diversification and

4 support economies in Indian Country as a federal

5 agency.

6 MR. WHITEBIRD: [Unintelligible.]

7 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: I'm sorry, say

8 that again.

9 MR. WHITEBIRD: I guess the only thing

10 that we would ask for is leverage from the

11 Commissioner.

12 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: I'm not sure what

13 you mean by "leverage."

14 MR. WHITEBIRD: By helping the other

15 tribes [unintelligible] asking for the Commission

16 to leverage, partnership with us on...

17 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Okay. Again, I

18 would say it's up to each individual tribe to enact

19 whatever policies or laws that they feel is

20 appropriate around Buy Indian. And those -- that

21 kind of leverage would be up to each individual

22 tribe. We're not going to mandate it to you.

23 We're just going to mandate it to ourselves.

24 Other comments on any of the other

25 regulations on this particular subject, any

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1 questions?

2 MR. NEUMANN: My name is John Neumann.

3 I'm a general manager for the Lac Vieux Desert

4 tribe. And I have some comments on the fees.

5 Obviously the GMs have a responsibility to their

6 bottom line. And I feel that because of -- you are

7 calling it match play, but in reality it's free

8 play that the tribes typically give to a volume

9 players. And I believe we're paying fees on top of

10 our own money at all of our casinos. And seems to

11 me that there should be a mechanism to at least

12 take that free play out of the gross revenue.

13 Typically when you give away $100 of free play,

14 93 percent of that actually goes back to the

15 player, you know, after 10 million handle-pulls or

16 whatever. But that's money that's going back into

17 the machine continually. That's money that's

18 really being taxed twice. So I think the NIGC

19 should take a better look at that and to at least

20 take that free play out of that calculation.

21 Thank you.

22 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: That's a good

23 observation. This isn't the first time that we've

24 heard that. We've heard that from some other

25 folks. I heard someone else say the same thing as

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1 you were saying it. That's why we're here, so we

2 can get your comments on that.

3 MS. ECHO-HAWK: Thank you. And it is

4 not the first time we've heard that. In fact,

5 leading up to this process, we sort of did a fee --

6 sort of 101 internally, and Chris in our audit

7 department was there. And this was an issue that

8 came up. And we do have some trainings on that on

9 how you can calculate the fee. These trainings are

10 free. We will bring them to you so that you can

11 figure out how we do this. But it is a very

12 complicated. And that's why, again, we ask the

13 question: Should we define with greater detail

14 what a wager is and what a payout is and whether or

15 not a match play is part of the wager or part of

16 the payout? How do you make -- it gets very

17 complicated on how you make those deductions.

18 But I know that from the Agency's

19 perspective is that you shouldn't have to be taxed

20 on your money. So if it is a match play, then --

21 but how do you make that calculation? I know it

22 is -- it's beyond me. I'm a lawyer. I went to law

23 school. I don't like math. It is complicated.

24 But there might be a way to get to that by

25 making -- better defining wager and payout. That's

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1 one of the issues that we have in front of you so

2 we can make this less complicated and make sure

3 that you are not being taxed two times on what is

4 your money.

5 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Other comments? I

6 might, in the absence of volunteers, maybe ask some

7 questions. We have -- speaking of fees, we've made

8 some changes to the regulations from biannual to

9 quarterly. You know, we've heard from tribes that

10 that actually works better with -- along the lines

11 of other quarterly payments that are due of tribes.

12 Any comments on going from a fiscal year or a

13 calendar year to a fiscal year; which actually

14 makes it easier on us and on you? Because you can

15 already use your audited financial statements. It

16 reduces the fee audit. We have our audit team that

17 spends a lot of time on that. If a tribe's fiscal

18 year is different than a calendar year, it's

19 double-duty for tribes whose fiscal year does not

20 fall on the calendar year.

21 Chris, do you have any questions about the

22 transition period and the effective dates on this

23 maybe to draw up some questions?

24 MR. CHRIS WHITE: Well, yes, something

25 we're really curious about is if the Commission

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1 went forward and promulgated this regulation that's

2 written in regards to calculating fees based on

3 fiscal year, is how -- what issues in

4 implementation are going to affect the tribes? In

5 other words, I can tell the Commission how it's

6 going to affect our end as a federal agency and as

7 we plan out our budget. But I'm very curious as to

8 what kind of implementation is going to be required

9 of tribes and casinos. And so any comments to that

10 issue would be greatly appreciated. And if you

11 don't want to comment today, you know, take the

12 draft back to your controllers at the casino and

13 ask them: How are you going to do this and how

14 much time do you need to do it?

15 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thanks, Chris.

16 Some of the other questions on 514 on fees, as

17 we've mentioned on page 5 of the draft, lines 13

18 through 20, we've left an open question on how a

19 late fee would be calculated based on a percentage

20 or just a -- sort of a hard, fast number for each

21 phase of -- of the late fee section; one to 31 days

22 is a certain amount, either a percentage or a hard

23 number, 31 days to 60 and so on up to 91 days.

24 What is the -- what's sort of the feel out

25 there on whether that should be a percentage-based

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1 late fee or just a cold, hard, fast number for each

2 step? Some of the comments that we received on

3 this section with regard to percentage versus

4 dollar amounts, that a -- a percentage would be a

5 little more fair based on the gross gaming revenue

6 of a tribe. So, you know, the percentage would go

7 across whatever the gross gaming revenue is. So if

8 you are a small operation, the fee certainly would

9 be smaller, you know, a late fee would be smaller,

10 and it would seem more fair if -- and I believe

11 those were most of the comments, were generally

12 tribes were supporting the percentage late fee

13 system as opposed to a -- if there is just a hard

14 dollar amount, if you are a small operation, you

15 know, you are getting hit with the same fee, same

16 amount as somebody who is a really large operation.

17 And then a percentage-based system, a

18 percentage-based late system would be more fair

19 process based on how large or small the operation

20 is. And it's not overly burdensome on the smaller

21 operations.

22 We're at 10:30 now. We've been here for

23 been about an hour and a half. Why don't we get up

24 and take a break if that's okay with the group.

25 Stretch your legs. There is some food and coffee

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1 back there. We'll be back at 10:45. And maybe

2 perhaps we'll have some more opportunity to discuss

3 during the break comments. We'd like to hear

4 comments when we come back at 10:45.

5 (Recess.)

6 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Let's go ahead and

7 resume. Did we have any other folks that wanted to

8 make some comments?

9 MR. NANOMANTUBE: Hi. My name is

10 Robert Nanomantube. I'm with the Sac and Fox

11 Nation in Missouri and Kansas and Nebraska, and I

12 wanted to provide the following testimony and

13 comments in regards to 25 CFR, Minimum Internal

14 Control Standards; 25 CFR 523, Revision and

15 Approval of Existing Ordinances and Resolutions

16 25 CFR Part 14, Fees.

17 The Sac and Fox Nation would like to

18 express our thanks for being provided the

19 opportunity to offer our tribe's comments in regard

20 to the issues identified. The Sac and Fox Nation

21 would also like to express our thanks for the

22 approach that the NIGC has undertaken in

23 relationship to seeking comment and input from the

24 tribes on a regular and transparent basis.

25 The following comments are based upon our

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1 tribe's experiences and its familiarity with said

2 issues. Hopefully the Sac and Fox's experiences

3 will assist with the formulation of revised and/or

4 amendment to the NIGC's regulations and will

5 encourage an enhanced review of the regulations

6 from a day-to-day regulatory perspective.

7 MICS and Technical Standards, Part 542,

8 Class III Minimum Internal Control Standards, this

9 particular area is a primary concern to the Sac and

10 Fox. The Sac and Fox recognizes that internal

11 control standards are extremely important to the

12 Indian gaming industry and make more -- and more

13 particularly to our tribe. Due to its intent to

14 provide the protection of tribal assets as well as

15 providing for the integrity of the tribe's gaming

16 operations. In addition, Sac and Fox also

17 recognizes that there needs to be consistency in

18 the auditing process of internal control standards

19 in Indian gaming.

20 Experience has shown that many tribes that

21 offer Class III Gaming have used the NIGC's

22 bulletins as clear direction to follow certain

23 guidelines and have used said bulletins as primary

24 guidelines for purposes of regulating Indian

25 gaming. Sac and Fox believe that tribes that offer

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1 gaming are as technically knowledgeable and

2 professional as commercial gaming entities and are

3 aware that if they did not develop and institute

4 their own tribal internal controls, that they would

5 in effect be opening itself up to illegal activity.

6 Sac and Fox looks to industry standards in

7 the gaming area, and if it does not have the

8 expertise or technical ability in various gaming

9 areas, it retains someone -- it retains someone or

10 some entity to carry out what is needed to protect

11 its gaming operation for the benefit of its

12 members. It is my tribe's belief that it performs

13 the due diligence required in relation to following

14 industry standards whether or not a regulation

15 requires it. Should Part 542 Class III MICS be

16 eliminated and replaced with guidelines, it is the

17 Sac and Fox's opinion that the tribe will continue

18 to institute industry standard internal controls in

19 the area of Class III.

20 As to those tribes who have incorporated

21 542 Class III MICS in their ordinance or it is a

22 part of their Compact, there may be resulting

23 challenges. But we believe that most tribes have

24 appropriate internal controls in place and that the

25 internal control guidelines would be used to

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1 supplant what is in previously adopted ordinances.

2 In summary, the Sac and Fox would recommend

3 that said internal control standards be issued as

4 guidelines and that they would be provided to the

5 tribes in a bulletin format and be updated on a

6 regular basis as technology changes. Technology is

7 changing so quickly that a government notice and

8 rulemaking process is not only too slow to keep up

9 with said changes but may prove to be more costly

10 in the long run. Possibly internal control

11 standards could be addressed in recommended changes

12 to tribal ordinances.

13 Part 522, Submission of Gaming Ordinances

14 or Resolution. Sac and Fox believes that this

15 section does not need revision, but that perhaps a

16 bulletin could be issued that addresses recommended

17 changes in an ordinance if a tribe chooses to

18 update their ordinance. For instance, the issue of

19 internal control standards could be identified.

20 25 CFR Part 514, Fees. The Sac and Fox

21 Nation is of the opinion that the revised draft

22 language relating to fees is clearly an improvement

23 upon the present regulation. The specificity

24 protects the tribes in the event an alleged

25 violation is found in relation to late payment of

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1 fees and/or failure to pay fees. The process

2 outlined in the draft language indicates that the

3 due process for a tribe has been considered and

4 that our tribe's previous comments were taken under

5 consideration.

6 I'd like to thank you for this opportunity.

7 And if you have any questions, please contact

8 Sac and Fox Gaming Commission. Thank you.

9 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you very

10 much. And I know that we have a copy of that. I

11 appreciate your thoughtful testimony there, and

12 we'll take everything that you said into

13 consideration. And we thank you for your kind

14 words.

15 Do we have others that would like to make

16 comment on any of these parts? We've discussed

17 some portions of 514, which are the fees. And

18 some -- we've heard some comment with regard to the

19 Buy Indian Act, some comment with regard to Minimum

20 Internal Control Standards for Class III, which is

21 Part 542. I always thought that was interesting

22 that Class II was 514 and Class III was 542. It's

23 confusing. I would be interested in knowing --

24 speaking of Class III MICS, in this region, how do

25 tribes -- we've just heard from Sac and Fox how

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1 that particular section -- they would like to see

2 it go forward in terms of guidelines and bulletins.

3 And we've had a wide range of tribes and how tribes

4 would be affected. There are tribes who have in

5 their ordinance and prefer to have the NIGC use the

6 NIGC regulations and have given authorization to

7 the NIGC to enforce after the decision, which says

8 that we cannot promulgate nor can we enforce

9 Class III Minimum Internal Control Standards. And

10 so some tribes have done that, primarily in

11 California. And there are reasons they have done

12 that.

13 Yet on the other hand, as Sac and Fox has

14 mentioned, they have their own system in place for

15 that, whether that's through their Compact or

16 otherwise, and that there are tribes who have that

17 oversight enforcement between them and their state

18 through the Compacts or some other mechanism. Are

19 there tribes here that can maybe inform us how it

20 works in this particular area or how it works for

21 your tribe?

22 We've heard a lot about it. It's more

23 contentious in some areas than others. I don't

24 want to isolate the discussion just to what I am

25 talking about. I'm certainly open for -- to any

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1 comments on any of the parts that we're discussing

2 or the process that we're going through right now.

3 MR. MILHOLLIN: Good morning. Elliott

4 Milhollin, with Hobbs, Straus, Dean and Walker. I

5 have a question about the facility license

6 regulations. A number of our clients will be

7 submitting formal comments on these regulations.

8 Notably I anticipate that many of them will be

9 commending the NIGC for its revisions to the

10 environmental public health and safety provisions

11 which has revised -- appear to track the statute

12 much more closely and were of significant concern

13 to a number of our clients.

14 The question that I have is I would like to

15 get a bit more information or the views of the

16 Commission on what the intention is behind the new

17 requirements in 559.1-A, that the purpose is now to

18 obtain verification in construction maintenance of

19 the gaming facility. The operation of gaming in

20 conducted in a manner which adequately protects

21 the --

22 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry,

23 Elliott, I need you to talk slower.

24 MR. MILHOLLIN: Let me then just skip

25 down to section 559.2-B. There is a new process

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1 called for here in which the Chair will expedite a

2 process for verifying a --

3 [Someone coughing.]

4 THE COURT REPORTER: Verifying what?

5 MR. MILHOLLIN: The Indian lands of

6 status of the facility.

7 THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you.

8 MR. MILHOLLIN: And once Indian land

9 status is verified, the Chair shall notify the

10 tribe.

11 I wondered if the Commission could provide

12 perhaps an overview of what the intention is behind

13 that new provision. Thank you.

14 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thanks, Elliott.

15 I think what we were looking at is -- what's the

16 purpose -- I mean, you move to the back section

17 where we've eliminated the EPHS requirements, then

18 what are we doing. We look at the statute and the

19 statute says that we will -- that tribes will be

20 ensuring the construction maintenance of the gaming

21 facility and the operation of that gaming is

22 conducted in a manner which adequately protects the

23 environment and public health and safety pursuant

24 to the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act. So what's our

25 part in that? I think between these two what we're

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1 looking at is some verification and later we ask

2 for an attestation that says the tribe has

3 adequately basically covered their bases on EPHS,

4 especially given the removal of that language,

5 those requirements on facility licenses. I think

6 that's what we were thinking. Just show us and

7 attest that you've got it covered.

8 Your next question.

9 MR. MILHOLLIN: Just a follow-up. In

10 559.2-B, the new regs -- the new language calls for

11 a process of verifying any land assess that is

12 separate and apart from the EPHS attestation

13 requirements. So the question is what --

14 essentially what -- obviously the NIGC has

15 discretion to render Indian land determinations.

16 Is this -- how does this process relate to the

17 NIGC's -- you know, the current regulations which

18 require tribes to provide Indian lands information

19 to the NIGC. This language would appear to call

20 for a process whereby the NIGC would then notify

21 the tribe prior to the issuance of a license.

22 Currently in the IGRA there is no requirement that

23 the -- that a tribe obtain -- obtain approval by

24 the NIGC prior to issuing facility license. And

25 I'm wondering if that's -- you know, what the

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1 intention of this provision is.

2 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: I think the

3 intention, thank you, Elliott, is to ensure that

4 the gaming is being conducted on land that is

5 eligible. It's not necessarily the Indian land

6 determination we're trying to get through here.

7 I'm thinking: Is it really that different from

8 what's already in the current regulations and it's

9 part of what the current facility license requires?

10 It's -- we have to ensure at some point

11 that if you have a new facility opening up, that it

12 is, in fact, on eligible Indian land for which

13 gaming can be conducted and that it follows along

14 what the statute says with regard to the definition

15 of Indian lands. That's what we were thinking.

16 MS. ECHO-HAWK: I can see what you're

17 saying. If you look at the current reg, it says

18 that the tribe has to send all of this stuff. And

19 it doesn't say anything about what the Chairperson

20 then does with that stuff. "Stuff" is a technical

21 legal term.

22 (Laughter.)

23 MS. ECHO-HAWK: And the new reg the way

24 it's formulated does talk about what the

25 Chairperson does with the stuff. And so it is a

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1 little different. And if you have -- the intent

2 was not to change that. The intent of B really is

3 to tell the NIGC to hurry up, because in practice

4 what has happened is tribes send us their

5 information and we let them know whether or not we

6 think the land is -- it's Indian land, that's the

7 practical implication of what the last regulation

8 and, you know, your financiers and other people,

9 they want to know that obviously. But the intent

10 of B really was to tell us to move it along, to

11 expedite that process so that tribes can carry on

12 and do what they need to do. Perhaps we need to

13 rephrase it so that we're not adding -- so that

14 we're just doing what the intent of the statute is,

15 that there is no new process or that the

16 Chairperson isn't adding -- the intent was not to

17 add authority or to increase, you know, expand the

18 authority of the Commission. The intent was just

19 to tell the NIGC to move it along. So perhaps we

20 need to go back and look at the language. And if

21 you have suggested language or your clients do,

22 then please send it.

23 The obtained verification in the 559.1,

24 that obtained verification language is in reference

25 to the attestation verifying that all the EPHS

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1 stuff is in compliance, so sort of two different

2 verification language.

3 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: While we're on

4 facility licensing, there is another section. And

5 I know you just all received this. We had a bit of

6 a delay in our delivery system for this draft in

7 your hands this morning for which I apologize. But

8 on page 2 between lines 24 and 27, we understand

9 and recognize that there are reasons why facilities

10 close, whether those were seasonal closures or

11 there is a temporary closure due to a flood, due to

12 forest fires around them or just remodeling.

13 We, you know, would be happy to hear from

14 all of you on what is a reasonable time that we

15 specify here when there is a temporary closure

16 that's less than X number of days. That's one of

17 the areas that we're looking at as well that we've

18 left some blanks specifically so that we could hear

19 from you. We know that some seasonal closures are

20 six months, some are three months, you know, a

21 remodel may take, you know, could take a month, it

22 could take a year. There's got to be some sort of

23 limit on how long that would be. You don't provide

24 comment today, we certainly welcome that, knowing

25 that you just received this copy today, on what

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1 would be reasonable. And in looking at some of the

2 operators, because you may know more specifically

3 what would be a reasonable time frame for

4 operations to be temporarily closed.

5 With regard to facility licensing and when

6 there are submissions for written comments on this

7 particular preliminary discussion draft, let us

8 know some of your views on not just this draft as

9 it is now but how you all handle your environmental

10 public health and safety. Just general information

11 would be helpful for us to know. We understand

12 that there are some tribes that have this arranged

13 in their Compacts, some tribes handle it within

14 their own tribal law. Some tribes -- own tribal

15 law will defer to federal laws. We would

16 like -- be interested in knowing how tribes have

17 handled -- it varies from tribe to tribe, region to

18 region; just because, you know, from your

19 perspective or at least from your experience how

20 you handle it.

21 I'm going to have Lael talk about the new

22 group. This is all group 1, the Buy Indian Act,

23 the fees, the facility licensing, the repeal, the

24 process on how to approach Class III Minimum

25 Internal Control Standards all are group 1. We've

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1 added group 2 today. As we move forward over the

2 next several consultations we'll be discussing

3 enforcement and proceedings before the Commission.

4 So I'm going to hand it over to Lael to

5 talk more about group 2 and what kind of

6 information we're looking for from all of you with

7 regard to those parts.

8 MS. ECHO-HAWK: For the group 2, we've

9 sort of got two parts and that is one is

10 enforcement and one is proceedings before the

11 Commission. In enforcement what we've really sort

12 of focused in on from tribal comments that we heard

13 are a couple of things. One is a voluntary

14 compliance process. What does it look like and

15 what -- what -- should we put informal regulations

16 that outline and process that the NIGA agency goes

17 through before issuing a Notice of Violation.

18 We've looked at Nevada's regulations. We've talked

19 to some -- to the regulatory agency down there.

20 We've looked at New Jersey's. We've looked at

21 other jurisdictions. We've looked at other federal

22 agencies like the FAA to see: What do those

23 agencies -- what do those other regulators do and

24 what is in their formal -- in their regulations,

25 which is their formal process, for ensuring that

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1 before you issue a citation or a violation, that

2 the regulators have been in contact, that they've

3 been working with the regulated tribe or whatever,

4 you know, when we're looking at the FAA and the

5 industry, their pilots, et cetera, how do we -- and

6 so we've taken a look at that and we're thinking

7 internally: How do we put that into place? What

8 does that look like? Is it a three-step process?

9 Is it a two-step process? What do tribes think is

10 appropriate? This certainly wouldn't stop what our

11 current practice is, and that is that our

12 enforcement is out there, they are talking to you.

13 If there is a compliance issue, we'll bring the

14 training. We'll do -- utilize the ACE guideline,

15 assistance compliance and then enforce and make

16 sure that we're doing all that we can do before it

17 reaches that formal process that might be a two- or

18 three-step process prior to a Notice of Violation

19 being issued. That's something that we're thinking

20 about at the Agency level, and we're interested in

21 hearing what your thoughts are about that.

22 Another thing we've talked about

23 extensively and internally is this idea of

24 expunging a Notice of Violation from the website,

25 from all of the history. What can we do, you know,

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1 that -- tribes had brought that forward that it is

2 sort of a black mark on their record and is there a

3 way that we can institutionalize a process for

4 removing those Notices of Violation, and is that

5 something that tribes would like to see, is that

6 practical -- that will have some practical

7 implications, negative or positive. So that's

8 another thing that we're talking about internally,

9 and we'd like to hear from tribes on it as well.

10 Those are sort of the two major things that

11 we're looking at in terms of the enforcement

12 process or the enforcement regulation.

13 Oh, and then -- and the other thing is

14 after a -- before a Notice of Violation has reached

15 the point where it can be possibly expunged, is

16 there a process that we should put in place to

17 allow either the Chairperson or the Commission

18 itself withdraw a Notice of Violation. And if

19 there is a process like that that should be put in

20 place, is it -- you know, when should that happen?

21 Should it happen before a Notice of Violation

22 goes -- an appeal is filed that would take it in

23 front of the Commission, which then the Chairperson

24 doesn't have any sort of prosecutorial discretion?

25 Is this a process that is necessary if we do sort

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1 of the expungement process as well? Should we have

2 both in place? So we're thinking about that. How

3 do we structure that so when necessary, Notice of

4 Violation is issued and the process is gone

5 through, that if a Notice of Violation is issued

6 and the Chairperson or the Commission wants to take

7 a second look at it and say: Okay, we just need to

8 withdraw this Notice of Violation, what does that

9 process look like. And then following that, a

10 Notice of Violation, once it's been issued and then

11 a number of years have passed, should there be a

12 process to expunge that from a tribe's history.

13 So those are the three primary things that

14 we're looking at in the enforcement regulations and

15 is trying to wrap our brains around how this would

16 work, what are the practical implications for

17 tribes and what should the process look like.

18 And so then also in group 2 are the

19 proceedings before the Commission. There are sort

20 of sort two different kinds of proceedings. There

21 are the proceedings before the Commission and there

22 is the proceedings before a presiding officer,

23 presiding official. And we've looked at both of

24 those regulations, and -- part 556 and 558. And

25 we've got a number of things that are duplicated.

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1 We've got -- we've got -- we've got -- we're trying

2 to streamline things. One of the mandates by the

3 President has been that agencies look at their

4 regulations, look at their regulatory structure,

5 streamline, create efficiencies, remove

6 duplications. So that's what we're really trying

7 to do while ensuring that there is some due

8 process. We've heard from a number of tribes that

9 there has been major due process concerns about

10 what they do when they are filing an appeal and

11 they are not handling the appeal before a presiding

12 official, they are doing it on a written submission

13 to the Commission. We've seen it, and we've heard

14 it. But oftentimes this can result in incredible

15 delays and it can really have an effect on the

16 tribe. Sometimes a tribe wants to, you know, for a

17 number of reasons perhaps delay or add more to the

18 record or whatever. And those things should be

19 built in. But I think at the Commission level

20 they -- and at the Agency level, we've been trying

21 to implement some time frames, ensure that there is

22 some due process, that some of those due process

23 concerns are identified and resolved.

24 So if you have thoughts about that, if you

25 are a lawyer and you like looking at this stuff and

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1 thinking about civil procedure and practice before

2 an agency and what those time frames should look

3 like any additional processes, if we need to

4 identify motion practices. I know that the

5 Commission has been asked to reconsider a number of

6 things, should that be something that's included in

7 these regulations. You know, put your civil

8 procedure hats and administrative EPA laws hats

9 back on and take a look at the regs and offer us

10 suggestions.

11 The other thing that I missed and we missed

12 in the PowerPoint is the -- formalizing the pilot

13 program. I'm getting my groups confused. So

14 that's all group 2. But those are the main things

15 we've been working on -- we've been working on

16 there. And I don't know -- if there are -- if you

17 have experience, that's one of the other things

18 that we -- has been very compelling as we've gone

19 through this process, is hearing the experiences of

20 tribes. If your tribe has filed an appeal, if your

21 tribe has received a Notice of Violation that was a

22 surprise, if there was ways that we could have done

23 that better, we would like to hear that, because

24 that influences the decision-making process. And

25 if we can identify a problem, then perhaps we can

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1 figure out a way to resolve that.

2 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: I know the tribal

3 leaders have taken some opportunity; certainly open

4 the floor, and it is open to those who represent

5 tribes, especially the attorneys on this process

6 part. Certainly we welcome comments on clarifying

7 these processes. Especially -- maybe even the

8 regulators that are in the room, if you are free to

9 speak or give some thoughts on -- the goal under

10 the enforcement section is to give tribes the

11 opportunity to remedy before we issue an NOV. It's

12 been made very clear to us that NOVs, they -- they

13 are a black mark. And your lenders, the states or

14 whomever you are having to deal with will look at

15 your record in NIGC. And are there feelings or

16 thoughts one way or the other with regard to the

17 prospect of having one, two, three steps or

18 something similar to that that allows the tribe,

19 you know, remedy opportunity so that we can avoid,

20 you know, the black mark.

21 MS. HOUSEMAN: Good morning. Thank you

22 to the Commission for --

23 THE COURT REPORTER: Could you identify

24 yourself, please.

25 MS. HOUSEMAN: Good morning. Thank you

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1 for allowing me to speak. My name is Sharon

2 Houseman. I'm an attorney with the Sac and Fox

3 Gaming Commission and a number of other tribes.

4 And this particular issue is extremely important

5 because of the fact that I have had two tribes that

6 were in the situation of the NOV, and it was

7 because they wouldn't listen to me. No, I'm just

8 kidding.

9 (Laughter.)

10 MS. HOUSEMAN: What basically happened

11 is it was so discretionary from the NIGC's

12 perspective that when we got to the point where

13 they said they were going to issue an NOV, we said:

14 Well, we're fixing it right now. And it was almost

15 like: Well, I have to find out from the general

16 counsel if we can allow you not to get an NOV, even

17 if you are going to fix it.

18 In the meantime, as many of the tribal

19 leaders are aware, there is a turnover in

20 commissioners, there is a turnover in counsels on a

21 regular basis. So as a result of that, the issue

22 did not get fixed. And that's -- I mean, that's

23 pretty common when it comes to many of the tribes.

24 Well, what had happened was the second group came

25 in and said: Well, now we're going to fix this.

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1 Well, time had gone by and so they didn't get it

2 fixed as quickly as they probably should have. But

3 they were going to be issued an NOV. So the tribe

4 went to the Commission and said: Please do not

5 issue this. We got everything in order now. We

6 have our new people in place, and we're fixing it.

7 And this is how we're fixing it. This is why it

8 didn't get fixed.

9 As a result of that, the NIGC at that

10 particular time said: Well, we still have to issue

11 it, but we'll go back to our general counsel and

12 see if we do. Well, there's nothing in place that

13 says they have to issue an NOV in particular

14 circumstances. So that was one situation where we

15 got -- at that time we were able to convince

16 Phil Hogen to go ahead and allow them to cure the

17 violation, and he did allow that. But it was so

18 discretionary that: What do you appeal? And do we

19 know for sure that when they completely cured the

20 situation, that what would happen with that

21 potential NOV, the potential NOV. We don't even

22 know what happened to that. It might be in some

23 zone. So that's one issue.

24 The other issue was with another tribe,

25 very similar situation, they were going to issue an

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1 NOV, and we had a disagreement with them. So we

2 filed an appeal, and they said: Well, no, you are

3 wrong. And we said: No, we're not wrong. Like

4 they could tell us we're wrong.

5 (Laughter.)

6 MS. HOUSEMAN: What ended up happening

7 in that situation was we provided all the

8 information and as you are all also aware, I'm sure

9 that many of the field reps are new in certain

10 areas. And some of the field reps don't have as

11 much experience as the tribes do in regulating

12 gaming. And I'm sure that's been said quite often.

13 So you end up kind of, with all due respect,

14 teaching some of the new people on how to regulate.

15 Again, with all due respect, I just said that.

16 When it comes to NIGC that's what happened

17 was it was explaining to them in detail how the

18 tribe did certain things, how it met Compact

19 requirements and how it met the requirements of the

20 federal laws and regulations. So we went through

21 all that and they said: Well, there is still an

22 NOV at issue. We said: Yes, but here's the

23 explanation as to why this occurred and how we can

24 cure it. If there was a 1, 2, 3 step process, it

25 would take away this discretion. And I know you

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1 need to have discretion so you can explain some

2 things, but it was still like it put the tribes in

3 limbo and that NOV is probably still sitting there,

4 and we're still not sure where it's at.

5 For instance, one of the tribes was

6 building a hotel. We don't know if that's going to

7 come up when the bank comes over to deal with their

8 financing. So that's one of the issues that I

9 guess we're concerned about. So putting it into a

10 1, 2, 3 process would really make a difference so

11 that the expectations on all sides are cleared up

12 and that the tribes would know how long is the

13 potential NOV going to be sitting out there and is

14 it going to be withdrawn, how is it going to be

15 withdrawn and if it isn't withdrawn, is there an

16 appeal to have it withdrawn. I guess there is a

17 number of questions when it comes to the NOV.

18 Thank you.

19 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: What about a

20 1, 2, 3 process with discretion.

21 MS. HOUSEMAN: If you are able to do

22 it, because there does -- in my opinion, there was

23 too much discretion, and they are saying: No, one

24 of the NIGC people, and it sounds contradictory,

25 but it really isn't, because one of the -- in one

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1 of the situations was in this situation in

2 California, they had to issue an NOV, that had been

3 their practice. And the other one was in another

4 state, and it was a different practice. And they

5 said: Well, we'll wait. So I think there needs to

6 be some kind of clarification. And if you put a

7 1, 2, 3, it actually says what the discretionary

8 issues can be taken into consideration.

9 That's where the 1, 2, 3 would be, I

10 believe. Thank you.

11 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thanks for

12 responding to that. It also brings to attention --

13 our attention the need for consistency in the

14 application of the regulations from within the

15 region. Because, you know, the Chair actually

16 makes the decisions, not the general counsel's

17 office in my administration. And what's brought to

18 my attention is through our enforcement division

19 based on their site visits and their history with

20 the tribe, and certainly they all encourage

21 compliance and try to bring folks into compliance.

22 But you know, another process that we have

23 in place, our internal process through our chief of

24 staff's manual that we're also taking a look at

25 based on what happened in these enforcement regs.

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1 And how we modify or change them will certainly

2 affect our chief of staff manual, which covers the

3 enforcement division so that there is some

4 consistency from California to Minnesota or

5 Oklahoma so that it's clear what steps that may be

6 taken. And if discretion is maintained even in a

7 1, 2, 3 or however-many-step process for the Chair

8 to either follow through with that process or if

9 it, you know, between step two and three the tribe

10 was remedied, you know, there is still discretion

11 for the Chair to sort of button that up and be the

12 enforcement division, there is no NOV issued.

13 But also the other thing that we should

14 consider too is that, you know, the discretion goes

15 both ways, to go ahead and maybe in emergent

16 situations, the Chair still has discretion to

17 immediately go to NOV depending on how serious a

18 violation may be occurring like an unknown,

19 unidentified group has now taken over the

20 management of the casino that we don't know about.

21 That's sort of an emergency situation. Still the

22 Chair needs discretion. That's why I am wondering

23 is having more clear steps that are in place that

24 give tribes the opportunity to remedy but also

25 gives the Chair the discretion to, you know, to

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1 call it good or move to NOV.

2 What do you think about that, Sharon?

3 MS. HOUSEMAN: I understand what you

4 are saying. And I think that's what we're looking

5 for is more clarification than anything on what's

6 going to happen. And what's extremely helpful is

7 if the Commission or the Chair when you are

8 reviewing the entire situation is that there is

9 clarification on the fact that there's certain

10 areas you would be looking into for one thing.

11 Number 1, has the local gaming commission

12 itself reviewed the situation and took some steps,

13 or was it just left out there to be an -- you know,

14 to be left on its own. Was there some disruption

15 going on within the tribe at that time, because

16 that has happened in the past where there was

17 disruption going on where the Agency itself has

18 been in a situation where it really couldn't do

19 anything. So having a National Indian Gaming

20 Commission and a Chair that understand the tribal

21 politics, you know, on a day-to-day basis I think

22 would make a whole big difference in trying to do

23 the 1, 2, 3 process and having that discretion that

24 we pointed out so that you know if a local

25 commission is coming in and just giving you a

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1 story, and it's not really happening. That you

2 have a handle on how some of the politics do

3 operate.

4 So I think that's extremely important.

5 Thank you.

6 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you, Sharon.

7 Henry.

8 MR. BUFFALO: My name is Henry Buffalo,

9 I'm an attorney here in St. Paul. I represent the

10 Fond du Lac band and several other tribes engaged

11 in gaming. And one of the points that I was going

12 to make that Sharon discussed briefly at the end

13 here was what is the role of the local gaming

14 commission, you know, whether it's in the situation

15 she described or I know I did have a client one

16 time in a facilities issue where they wanted to

17 open up a temporary facility, and it would have

18 been seasonal thereafter in order to sort of before

19 the season ended, in order for them to deal with

20 licensing that facility, they couldn't wait the 60

21 days or 30 days for review by NIGC. And then that

22 question comes up is: Well, you know, in those

23 situations where there's a potential dispute over

24 whether or not the NIGC actually has the authority,

25 you have a gaming commission which has regulations,

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1 and those regulations provide them the authority to

2 issue the licenses in -- rather than getting into

3 the big dispute over who has got the jurisdiction,

4 if -- what do you see with respect to relying on

5 the local gaming commissions and their powers and

6 authorities for some of these stopgap issues where

7 maybe it's not an emergency in the sense that

8 somebody is taking over, somebody new is managing

9 but when they want to open the facility and they

10 have to do it in the next 30 days?

11 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Well, actually I

12 think those are good points for us to consider.

13 And we would like to hear a little more from you on

14 what -- if we do create this sort of 1, 2, 3,

15 whatever number of process before we take any

16 action on anything, you know, that's a good

17 question. What is the role of the primary

18 regulators who are on the ground and have they

19 taken steps that we don't know about. I would

20 assume that our enforcement division would be --

21 likely would be in regular communication with the

22 local -- the tribal regulators on the ground.

23 From what I am hearing, that should be

24 considered in this process if the TGRAs are already

25 taking action, you know, what is that action? And

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1 again, that would be part of our internal sort of

2 procedures for our enforcement division, chief of

3 staff manual, that may be something for us to

4 consider. And should it be in the regs or should

5 that be part of our internal process?

6 I want to hear from you guys. I don't know

7 that I have an answer for you, but it's a good

8 point to make.

9 MR. BUFFALO: Well, back when we were

10 first drafting the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act,

11 one of the visions of the leadership at that time

12 for what the NIGC should do, aside from oversight,

13 you know, whatever that is that was put in the

14 statute, the leadership really felt that training

15 was also an important key and piece to the agency's

16 responsibilities. Whether it was your Chairman

17 Stan Jones from Tulalip or Bill Houle, the original

18 chairman of the NIGA who is from Fond du Lac or

19 Percy Polis [ph.], Josephine Jackson, all of these

20 people felt very strongly that from the onset of

21 the creation of not only the law but of NIGC, it

22 was the tribes who had the expertise because they

23 had already been operating gaming for over ten

24 years before the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act came

25 into place. And we did go through a long process

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1 after NIGC was developed and Tony Hope was chairman

2 where the tribes were initially engaged in helping

3 develop the original regulations of the NIGC but

4 then that process was sort of taken away from the

5 tribes.

6 But I -- one of the things I did want to

7 say, and my experience has been that the different

8 chairpersons of the NIGC have had different -- I

9 guess a different focus on what they wanted to do

10 in bringing and implementing the law. And I was

11 glad to hear that part of your focus, the

12 new -- you as Chairwoman and the other

13 Commissioners is to this training aspect of it.

14 Because I think it's not only training but

15 information-sharing.

16 We also thought that being a clearing house

17 of information, whether it be on operations or

18 accounting or surveillance, enforcement, those

19 kinds of things were important to share. And as we

20 know with over 280-some operations, maybe more than

21 that now, they're all different levels of

22 experience, all different levels of need in terms

23 of policing the activity. And as a result of that,

24 I think the sharing of that information becomes

25 even that much more important. I know I've got

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1 some clients who are not -- maybe they -- they're

2 in that sort of lower tier market between

3 $1 million to $5 million which everybody kind of

4 thinks on the outside that the margins are

5 fantastic when you operate gaming, but they're not.

6 The cost of operations are very high. So you come

7 away from that with very -- margins that are not as

8 great as they could be. And even in this downturn

9 in the economy, even less.

10 But in the challenges the tribes' face then

11 is meeting the regulations that are now 20 years

12 old that cost a lot and have not sort of kept pace

13 with kind of where the tribe's abilities to pay

14 are.

15 So I think that your focus or your focus of

16 your chairperson is good in terms of the training

17 and then sort of looking back at what's the

18 practical needs of each of these different tribes,

19 because they are so different in terms of mandating

20 anything that would pay -- would place a potential

21 cost on operations that would bring those margins

22 even lower.

23 You talked about -- like the GAAP today or

24 you talked about defining gross revenues today. I

25 think that's been a historical complaint of the

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1 tribes, that we don't want to be taxed twice on the

2 revenues that we make. I think that for tribes who

3 do revenue-sharing, GAAP has changed over time and

4 there are now expenses that were not recognized

5 before or promotions that were not recognized

6 before as expenses that could be deducted --

7 legitimately deducted that the current definition

8 of -- the NIGC's current definition does not take

9 into consideration. And so I think that probably a

10 number of -- a number of my clients indeed would

11 favor a gross revenue definition that would

12 basically be GAAP, GAAP-defined. Because in the

13 course of those -- those accounting principles

14 evolving, you know, it would be easier to address

15 those changes over -- with respect to those

16 accounting principles than having to come back and

17 do regulations, change regulations every time.

18 With respect to the fees, we talk a lot

19 about the penalties if you are late. But we don't

20 talk a lot about -- and the draft regulations don't

21 talk a lot about what conditions you would consider

22 should there be a request for a waiver of those

23 penalty fees. Even with the IRS we have a long

24 list of regulations that tell us what conditions

25 they will accept that could show good cause for

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1 whatever reason the fee may be late. So it may be

2 back into some -- some part of those regulations

3 that could talk about how you are going to address

4 those, or like you said, maybe address those

5 internally as you are dealing with that.

6 The -- you know, the bottom line I think

7 from my experience in this whole stuff over the

8 last 30 years has been -- and it's been pretty

9 good. I think the NIGC could have become a

10 heavy-handed law enforcement agency. And over time

11 I don't think it has proven to be that. I think it

12 informally has sort of accommodated the three steps

13 that we're talking about today.

14 Informally they have accommodated that

15 recognizing that, you know, what's maybe at heart

16 in the problem that needs to be resolved and the

17 violation that exists is not so much, you know, an

18 intention to violate, but it's, you know, it's

19 the -- whether it's an accounting issue or a

20 licensing issue. It's the ability, as Sharon says,

21 changes happen all the time. It's the ability for

22 either the Gaming Commission or the government as

23 owner to respond to each of these things. And I do

24 appreciate that accommodation that has occurred

25 over time, because I think the bottom line for the

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1 NIGC is they want to see an operation that is

2 consistent with the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act

3 and the regulations, and that the operation has

4 integrity and it's safe. And I think that's shared

5 by all tribal leaders as owners of these

6 operations.

7 And so I do appreciate the fact that

8 you -- the NIGC historically has worked with tribes

9 and haven't been too heavy-handed. And I

10 understand that that's sort of the focus of this

11 Commission, which I think is much appreciated.

12 Even from the lawyer's standpoint, you know, the

13 tribes have -- don't have a lot of resources, and

14 so they have to figure out where they want to use

15 those resources. And when their lawyers are

16 involved, if we can have a pretty set process that

17 gives us a couple -- gives us the three steps, I

18 think in 99 percent of the cases, the NOV issue

19 will be resolved before the agency has to come to

20 the point of actually sending that out. And you

21 are correct, I think it not only impacts the tribes

22 when they're dealing with their lenders, but it

23 also impacts the tribes when they're dealing with

24 their constituents too, because the constituents

25 understand that the agency does issue these NOVs

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1 from time to time. And if one is issued, the

2 constituents get upset about that too because they

3 are thinking there is something wrong in the

4 operation in the activity. When -- and in some

5 cases there is political reasons why they use

6 those, the issuance of those NOVs.

7 So I think that your process proposed with

8 three steps would I think -- at the end of it, if

9 there is still a chance for an NOV, it's going to

10 be a real problem. It's not going to be a problem

11 that was unintentional and maybe have more to do

12 with finances and we're able to address

13 [unintelligible].

14 Procedure, I mean, I -- the process and

15 procedure, I'm in the middle of a dispute with a

16 city agency over whether or not they issue a

17 minority business designation to an entity, and

18 Indian entity. And they denied it, and we have an

19 appeal from that agency. And we would like to

20 educate them a little bit about minority business

21 enterprises designation and the target groups,

22 because they don't have any understanding about

23 sort of the Indians as a target group, because they

24 are requiring that you be an enrolled member.

25 Well, we have a lot of tribal members who own

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1 businesses who may for one reason or another not be

2 a tribal member. One of the simplest reasons would

3 be that the enrollment is closed, yet we can show

4 them all kinds of documentation that they for that

5 fact -- other than that fact would be an eligible

6 member, but they're giving us 15 minutes to respond

7 to their denial.

8 So I think when it comes to your procedures

9 of process, I'm sure that as Sac and Fox has

10 indicated changes that you have made already do

11 provide some due process. But I think there really

12 does need to be some opportunity for the tribes to

13 respond, be given an opportunity to respond

14 completely to any of these any of the actions of

15 the agency that would result in them going into an

16 appeal process.

17 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you, Henry

18 there is a few things. Will you be submitting --

19 any of your clients be submitting written comments.

20 MR. BUFFALO: We'll be submitting

21 formal comments.

22 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Okay. Great.

23 Just let us know to what specificity, you know,

24 look at Sharon, do you want us to get into certain

25 steps that might become overburdensome in a

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1 regulation, or should the steps in enforcement

2 process, the things that should be considered. We

3 do that now and it's informal. When -- I'm

4 thinking of some instances where, you know, our

5 enforcement division has been working with the

6 tribe -- working with the tribe you get this sort

7 of soup of events that have occurred with turnover

8 in individuals of the Commission, in turnover of

9 leadership and then providing technical assistance

10 and training and still like months and months later

11 there is still no compliance. You know, do we want

12 to get -- we do that now, sort of how much

13 technical assistance training have we provided,

14 what are the dates and when did we do it? How long

15 has this been going on? Are they any closer to

16 remedying this situation and knowing sort of the

17 political turmoil that a tribe might be going

18 through. I don't know if we want to get into that

19 much specificity with regulation or should that

20 be -- I would like to hear what you all or your

21 clients would like to see happen with regard to the

22 specificity. And we have received some comments

23 about making it too -- don't make it too

24 overburdensome. You all cost money. And that we

25 have to be cognizant of that. And we don't want to

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1 create an overburdensome system. And I appreciate

2 your comments about technical assistance and

3 training, and that should be part of our

4 calculation. Again, we don't know. Like to hear

5 what you have to say about the specificity of that

6 in the reg or in its internal procedure for the

7 enforcement division. Certainly that -- and if we

8 revamp our -- and we will revamp or technical

9 assistance and training program so that we're

10 hitting our target. If we're providing a bunch of

11 training that doesn't do anybody any good, what's

12 the point. The whole point of technical assistance

13 and training is to maintenance compliance and

14 maintain the integrity, train new people as they

15 come in should they need it and prevent

16 noncompliance. That's really what it's about. So

17 we would like to hear comments about that. And I

18 appreciate your words about that.

19 And submit language -- you know, you had

20 mentioned some things about gross gaming revenue

21 and language that we should consider. So please do

22 let us know what some of that verbiage we should

23 consider with regard to that issue.

24 And also, you know, there is a section in

25 there on the fees that tribes can, within a certain

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1 amount of time, submit in writing whatever the

2 circumstances surrounding their late payment was.

3 But as you said, that's not similar to the IRS and

4 their list of things that they will consider as

5 maybe exceptional circumstances. So if you have

6 some comments about that, should that be a part of

7 this or not or should it be left to the discretion

8 of the Chair.

9 And also please do submit -- you've

10 mentioned some concerns about what timelines would

11 be in place. I certainly don't like the idea of

12 processes languishing for an unidentified amount of

13 time where something can potentially sit on a desk

14 for years because the regulation doesn't have a

15 timeline. You know, it happened that in other

16 federal regulations there are timelines. So if you

17 are going through, say, an appeal process through

18 the Bureau of Indian Affairs, there is some

19 timelines that the assistant secretary has to abide

20 by or, you know, within a certain amount of time

21 for the decision there is an appeal process. They

22 all have timelines. So you want to suggest

23 something, anyone, timelines, especially for those

24 who represent tribes in these processes, we're open

25 to hearing what you suggest. Looks like Sharon has

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1 some additional comments.

2 MS. HOUSEMAN: We would like exactly

3 120 -- no. Sharon Houseman. What I just wanted to

4 just reiterate, I guess, is when it comes to the

5 tribal regulators, it seems that what's kind of

6 missing, and it's really up to the tribes to do

7 this themselves, but if there is a way to get

8 encouragement for the tribes who set up their

9 commissions with their own internal process as far

10 as if there is an issue that NIGC has, that they

11 have to go through the tribal regulators. I think

12 that's extremely important, and I want to go back

13 to the IGRA itself, because under IGRA, it says

14 that one of -- some of the intent of IGRA was so

15 that the tribes were considered to have the

16 exclusive right to regulate on their reservation or

17 Indian lands. And I think we forget that. For me

18 that's a key issue. I think it's 2701(5) I think

19 it is. But that particular section to me sometimes

20 gets set aside. And it says that tribes have the

21 exclusive authority. It doesn't say that they have

22 concurrent or anything else. It says exclusive,

23 and so long as they are in compliance with this,

24 you know, the particular laws. But I think it's

25 extremely important to NIGC to take a look at that

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1 and say: What does that mean and how can we assist

2 the tribes to ensure that they are the exclusive

3 regulators. And yes, it is in our ordinances and

4 in the tribe's regulations at certain places. But

5 I think that's important for NIGC to say: If they

6 have the exclusive right to regulate, then what

7 does that mean? In the simplest form, it would be

8 like encouragement for the tribes themselves to say

9 that any time there is an issue with NIGC, not just

10 the -- they say who -- who's your spokesperson for

11 purposes of regulation? That's extremely

12 important. But not to say just spokesperson, it's

13 that if the tribes are encouraged that they need to

14 have a process set up internally themselves, let's

15 say before anything happens, it goes to the tribal

16 regulators themselves based upon 2701(5).

17 And I know that a lot of tribes say: We

18 want it to come through management -- I mean,

19 through the tribal council itself, et cetera. We

20 know that. But there has to be encouragement.

21 That's just my opinion, because of that section

22 where it says exclusive authority to regulate. I

23 don't know if it's a bulletin. I wouldn't think

24 it's a regulation. You can't tell the tribes you

25 have to do something. But I think it's an

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1 encouraging way to proceed with tribes and the

2 tribal regulators themselves to be the first ones

3 to actually hear these issues in either a formal

4 manner which I would like to see when it's dealing

5 with NIGC. Because that's how the CRIT case

6 started. There wasn't anything there. Rumor has

7 it they charged -- the NIGC charged in, but we

8 don't go any further with that. We don't know for

9 sure. Ken Billingsley said that's not what really

10 happened.

11 But if we move on with that, I think that's

12 an extremely important section that I think we have

13 to look at again where it says exclusive and what

14 does that really mean. Thank you.

15 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Before you go

16 anywhere. Let me play Devil's advocate here. I

17 come an area, I come from Washington state, and

18 we're a feisty bunch up there; fight pretty

19 fiercely for the right of the tribes to govern

20 themselves and sovereignty, especially when you

21 start talking about fish. And sometimes that

22 transfers over to other areas like gaming where

23 they're hard-fought laws that were put in place by

24 tribes or hard-fought relationship with the state

25 to sort it out between the tribes and the states.

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1 And so to my surprise, when I started in

2 this position there were a lot of tribes where --

3 I'm going to play the devil's advocate here -- who

4 want the NIGC to come in even though they have the

5 exclusive right to regulate gaming in their own

6 lands, there was just -- there has been a shocking

7 number of tribes that want us to come in and be the

8 hammer and not be the hammer themselves, not

9 be -- so how would that factor into what you're

10 suggesting?

11 MS. HOUSEMAN: Okay, but --

12 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: You mentioned

13 encouragement.

14 MS. HOUSEMAN: Encouragement, yes. And

15 to factor that in I think is extremely important.

16 That's usually the art -- that's not even the devil

17 that's saying it.

18 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: No.

19 MS. HOUSEMAN: But there is a number of

20 tribes. And I think my own tribe, Oneida, that is

21 hard core on it, the tribes have the right to

22 determine if they even ask the NIGC to come in.

23 But in my opinion, that's one of those situations

24 where each tribe has the ability to say the

25 exclusive right to regulate means that we can call

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1 in who we need to to assist in regulation. I think

2 that's how I would respond. But it is more of an

3 encouragement that it places the tribe in a

4 situation even if they say we want you to come in,

5 that if we can get the regulatory agencies to hear

6 the gaming issue specifically, that it still

7 fulfills those tribes, their right to govern as

8 well as to place the regulatory -- local regulatory

9 agency in a position of hearing that particular

10 issue. There's nothing precluding that from

11 happening also where the tribe says: Come in. And

12 I won't disagree with that, because my chairman,

13 Rick Hill, will shoot me if I [unintelligible].

14 So I do you understand what you are saying.

15 I think it's important. It's more of an

16 encouragement, not a: You have to do something.

17 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: I do want to make

18 clear that my concern is -- is I -- I want to see

19 facilities and tribes in compliance and running

20 safe facilities with integrity. Certainly that's

21 my goal. And who makes sure that happens? You

22 know, most of the time it's the tribal regulators

23 on the ground. And there are certain things that

24 we don't even see that are being managed and

25 handled. But there are certain circumstances that

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1 it's -- one or the other is going to do it. Just

2 trying to figure out how that would work when a

3 tribe comes in and says we would really like you to

4 do it, which is fine, just as long as compliance is

5 achieved.

6 MR. BUFFALO: Henry Buffalo. Just a

7 couple of observations. I respect the fact that

8 you described the folks from the northwest as being

9 very aggressive in advocating for their rights.

10 And I think it was not only for the fishing stuff,

11 even when it came to the gaming, it wasn't only

12 arguing aggressively for the government's right to

13 game, but there were several individually-owned

14 casinos up in the northwest that those individuals

15 were arguing very aggressively that they should

16 continue existing as an individually-owned and

17 operated activity on the reservation.

18 The law includes the Indian Gaming

19 Regulatory Act and nobody else in the country -- no

20 other Indian tribe in the country had that

21 situation occurring. Maybe one exception might

22 have been Keweenaw Bay with Fred Dakota's little

23 operation. And so it does -- I think what you say

24 is it does highlight some of the different

25 interests. And I think I remember it being

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1 described at one time in one of the NIGA meetings

2 by a representative from the northwest. And I

3 don't know if it was Buzz Gutirrez or somebody else

4 who said that: We oppose socialism and we do not

5 want the government operating businesses -- the

6 tribal government operating businesses on the

7 reservation. But in those discussions up --

8 leading up to the Act it certainly I think was a

9 concern for most of the tribal governments that the

10 activity be owned and operated by the tribe and

11 that the revenues be used to support tribal

12 government.

13 And so it was an anomaly to have a couple

14 of those operations from the northwest that were

15 individually owned. And we put -- there's that

16 piece put in the Act that said they can continue to

17 be individually owned, but they have to pay like

18 60 percent of their revenue to the government.

19 Because again, the purpose of the act is to allow

20 this activity to provide funding from government.

21 I think that that -- that having been said,

22 that we -- we still -- the devil's advocate thing I

23 think is -- or the scenario that you indicate is to

24 me I think a problem that's inherent in the smaller

25 tribes' inability to have the financial capacity to

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1 meet the requirements of the law. And our -- you

2 know, the broader concern of tribes in protecting

3 the ability to game in our industry has been to try

4 and make sure that we don't fall prey to the

5 critics who would like to end Indian gaming. And

6 the weakest points that tribes were seeing were

7 those tribes who didn't have their tribal gaming

8 commissions in place or were not following the

9 rules, which then leaves open the potential for a

10 major incident to occur and then the critics to say

11 I told you so.

12 And so my response to your scenario would

13 be pretty much: Well, if the tribe invites you in,

14 that's one thing. But the other assistance you

15 could do in those situations where tribes are

16 concerned about -- and then my only example I can

17 think about is California. In southern California

18 when the larger tribes who are up and gaming and

19 following all the regulations were concerned about

20 these smaller tribes who may not have been, it

21 probably would have been better to have the tribes

22 develop some sort of rapport with them and provide

23 assistance. On top of that, the NIGC to provide

24 assistance to bring those regulatory systems on the

25 reservation up to speed. That to me I think would

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1 have been a proper role for the NIGC at the time.

2 Because as I recall sort of the discussion, it was

3 these complaints from the larger more successful

4 tribes about the smaller less successful tribes and

5 whether or not they were going to create an

6 incident that could have impact on the entire

7 industry.

8 So technical assistance would be another

9 answer to your devil's advocate situation.

10 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you. We are

11 past noon. It's ten after 12:00. We're scheduled

12 to come back at 1:30. So unless anyone would like

13 to make a comment before we break because you have

14 to depart, please do so now. We certainly

15 understand that you all are busy, have multiple

16 things going on. We will return here at 1:30.

17 And, you know, certainly we will keep the

18 microphone open for as long as there are attendees

19 and participants here to make comment or ask

20 questions or clarify any of the parts that we've

21 issued. But we'll be back at 1:30. And depending

22 on the attendance, you know, we may or may not

23 close early. Just so you know, that's going to be

24 something that we've been -- we've been noticing

25 that as we move forward. But we'll certainly be

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1 here after the lunch hour, that we'll sort of

2 decide depending on participation after the lunch

3 hour how far we go. But if anyone has comments now

4 just because you need to leave, please feel free to

5 step up to the microphone, otherwise we'll see you

6 after lunch.

7 (No response.)

8 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Okay. Let's

9 break.

10 (Lunch break taken at 12:10 p.m.)

11 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Okay. Good

12 afternoon. I hope everybody enjoyed their time and

13 got a good lunch break. So we're going to open the

14 floor again to comments. So far what we've been

15 over, some of you were here during the morning

16 session, over fees on 5.14, on the new regulation

17 for NIGC only, for Buy Indian, that would be for

18 the NIGC to follow, not the tribes, part 559 for

19 facility licensing, process with regard to

20 Class III minimum internal control standards and

21 how do we deal with the range of issues that tribes

22 have presented to us. That's group 1.

23 Group 2, we discussed enforcement actions

24 and processes and also proceedings before the

25 Commission and how we can alter or change those two

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1 things. Actually, a lot more discussion on that

2 than I would have thought.

3 We've covered them all today and what we'd

4 like to do is open the floor for additional

5 comments, questions or any clarifications that are

6 needed by anyone in the audience. I see some new

7 faces here from the morning. Mark.

8 MR. FOX: Mark Fox, Three Affiliated

9 Tribes, also coincidentally the treasurer of

10 National Indian Gaming Association. I do have a

11 question. I'm going to raise it on behalf of TAT

12 more than anything else. We talked about Rapid

13 City. I haven't seen anything on the internet. So

14 correct me if I'm wrong in regards to a very

15 important issue, sole proprietorship, the

16 determination and the definition of sole

17 proprietorship, the rules, applicable rules and

18 regulations that are going to apply. Because our

19 example as we used before, we talked about in Rapid

20 City, and I'm going to mention it again so

21 that's -- those of you who are not sure where I'm

22 coming from will understand. But basically a

23 couple of years ago we were in the midst of a

24 contract dispute with an entity in which at some

25 point we referred to -- or deferred to NIGC, we

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1 felt at the time to make a decision or express an

2 opinion in regards to whether sole proprietorship

3 was going to be violated. And NIGC, and of course

4 not you specifically, this is before your time, but

5 NIGC made a choice to say: We're not getting into

6 that fight and we're not going to issue an opinion.

7 Which of course the opposing party to the tribe saw

8 that as a great victory and we went through an

9 arbitration process and it cost us a lot of money.

10 Nearly $8 million. And so that's money that we

11 don't have. All we have is some scraped up ground

12 up there and we had to pay.

13 And then as you're aware back in Rapid City

14 I made some suggestions. Well, maybe what we could

15 do is you could look to tribes, their council

16 tribal members themselves, tribal leadership and

17 ask them what their opinions are. But we need to

18 put something together. So my hope is that other

19 tribes don't find themselves in a like situation.

20 And that's getting burned as well. And I

21 understand it can be a real sensitive area. You

22 don't want to be overbearing and too paternalistic

23 by telling you what constitutes sole

24 proprietorship. But in our case, you know, we

25 needed the help and it wasn't there and it ended up

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1 costing us a lot of money. And I wanted to just

2 get your opinion, your ideas and your statements as

3 to where that's at, the process and what you may or

4 may not be able to do.

5 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Thank you, Mark.

6 In the Notice of Regulatory Review that was

7 issued on April 4th, as you know, as we've said

8 earlier, we've broken the regulation -- or the

9 potential regulations into groups, group 1 through

10 5. This was asking Lael which group the discussion

11 on sole proprietary interest would come up. And it

12 is in group 5. We're on group 1 and 2 right now

13 and we'll start to add more groups. And then the

14 beginning groups will start to taper off as we

15 address and deal with the regs in those groups. I

16 think we have copies of the Notice. Or if you

17 don't, if we don't have them here, hard copies, it

18 is on the website.

19 But it has been brought to our attention

20 and it -- you know, tribes brought it to our

21 attention, but we also have observed differing ---

22 in looking back, sort of inconsistent approaches

23 or, you know, inconsistencies when the NIGC would

24 get involved. And then coupled out with what

25 tribes have brought to our attention, that you

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1 have, you know, brought to our attention when we

2 were in Rapid City, you know, when do we step in.

3 We have no regulations right now that will give us

4 guidance or give tribes guidance more importantly

5 about sole proprietary interests.

6 And so we've put it on the table to be

7 discussed. We want to hear from tribes about, you

8 know, what it would look like, how it would impact

9 you. You know, certainly would imagine that tribes

10 probably are going to be on different -- different

11 pages. They're not -- tribes are not going to

12 agree about when this sole proprietary interest --

13 when is it exceeded in what circumstances. So when

14 we -- not to say that you can't comment about that

15 now. You certainly can. We welcome it whenever

16 you give us those comments. But we hope that you

17 will participate in some way, whether by in writing

18 or in person at one of the consultations that we

19 will discuss sole proprietary interests. We hope

20 that you will -- and every affiliate was involved.

21 MR. FOX: So when you say it's group 5

22 and there's a schedule to it, can you just briefly

23 explain again what that would mean as far as timing

24 and everything else.

25 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: I don't have that

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1 right now, but when 5 starts. I want to say in mid

2 July. I think that's where we -- it's out at

3 Northwest Indian Gaming. I think the 11th of July

4 is the meeting that we'll start to open up the

5 discussions to sole proprietary interest.

6 MR. FOX: Okay. So that will be for

7 anybody, any tribes or anybody that works for

8 tribes to do the --

9 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: You can be at

10 them, you can write in comments if you're not able

11 to make them. There's probably -- there's got to

12 be at least five meetings where we're going to talk

13 about it if not more.

14 MR. FOX: When I threw out there the

15 experience that we had, not just in the essence of

16 saying we want the NIGC to help us when we have

17 contract disputes, you know, it's very helpful to

18 have some type of concrete understanding of what --

19 baseline minimums of what tribes need to look for

20 as a contract. You know what I'm saying? For our

21 example, when I was in front of our counsel in

22 making decisions about moving forward on this and

23 the issue was raised you might have an issue of

24 sole proprietorship, they turn to two of the

25 lawyers that basically were working for the

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1 proposing group to build and they put forth an

2 opinion that -- in their opinion that said there is

3 no sole proprietorship problem here. Everything is

4 cool. Everything is good. And I stood up and

5 said: You know what? You wouldn't make that final

6 decision. The NIGC would. But then at that point

7 in time you turn and say: Well, what does NIGC

8 have on that? See where I'm getting at?

9 Now, we do have July coming up. We

10 appreciate the efforts that you're making now to

11 deal with it. It should have been dealt with many

12 years ago. It would have certainly helped us and

13 maybe avoiding losing $8 million. But how many

14 other situations are going to arise between now and

15 then are we going to get something in the fall or

16 what have you. It really is a really serious area.

17 We just saw I want to say a similar situation, but

18 I think a year later or a situation where both of

19 them involved a bank, I think Wells Fargo. But the

20 bottom line is that there is a need, there's a need

21 for tribes that represent the negotiation process

22 in developing or expanding or any financing,

23 anything of that nature, when you do that, where

24 are you overstepping your bounds. And everybody

25 refers them to the NIGC and says, you know, we need

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1 something. I'm just throwing that out there to

2 understand the process.

3 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: We will start on

4 group 5. And there is going to be quite a few

5 meetings for group 5. They're scheduled right up

6 there. There's going to be quite a few meetings on

7 group 5 that will involve a number of other topics

8 as well. But we also understand and appreciate

9 that that issue may come up in the interim. And

10 what's happening is we're taking them on a

11 case-by-case basis in the management contracts

12 themselves or if issues arise with -- you know,

13 through our enforcement division where there is a

14 question that comes up. We understand that there

15 has not been a consistent application of sole

16 proprietary interest or anything that would let you

17 know or your financing folks or anybody that you

18 are in some sort of agreement with or contract with

19 to give you any rules of the road or guidelines so

20 that you know when -- or at least what the

21 boundaries are.

22 And so we've seen and recognize that there

23 is a need for that. So -- or it's brought the

24 question to mind is there a need for this. Again,

25 my disclaimer is that tribes may not agree about

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1 this, but we'll see as we open up those

2 discussions. Because for every one tribe that

3 says: Yes, we would like to see some guidelines or

4 something put in place so that we know how to stay

5 away from breaching sole proprietary interest or at

6 least can tell banks or whoever we're in some sort

7 of contract with, we can show them where they can

8 draw the line, there's going to be another tribe

9 that says: Stay out. You're being overly --

10 you're overreaching or you're being paternalistic.

11 And learning the difference between breaking, you

12 know, a sole proprietary interest, a tribe -- you

13 know, our job is to make sure that the tribes are

14 the primary beneficiary. And that's where sole

15 proprietary -- dimensions of. It's a concern for

16 us. But once there -- what's the difference

17 between sole proprietary interest and when it's

18 just a bad deal. What is our responsibility. We

19 have 18, count them, meetings on group 5. So there

20 will be plenty of opportunity to weigh in. And I

21 would encourage you to participate in a few of them

22 so that you can hear what other tribes might have

23 to say. And if you can't, certainly read the

24 transcripts when they are posted online. Its good

25 to see how other tribes may view the very same

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1 issue.

2 Like that movie Ferris Bueller's Day Off:

3 Anyone? Anyone?

4 (No response.)

5 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: It was a good

6 movie by the way. Other questions about any of the

7 parts that we've discussed today, anything about

8 the process moving forward? Because our next stop

9 is ATNI, Affiliated Tribes of Northwest Indians, in

10 Plummer, Idaho at the Coeur d'Alene facility. And

11 that will be on Friday. I certainly don't expect

12 that folks will be there attending that. A few

13 might be here. But just FYI in case there's anyone

14 you know who will be able to attend, who will be in

15 Plummer, Idaho on Friday. I think we have a break

16 after June 5th, but we'll be back here -- June 8th.

17 We will be back here for the Class II gaming summit

18 little right up here behind me, then we go to NCAI

19 in Wisconsin, California and then Tulalip up in the

20 northwest. So lots of opportunities to discuss.

21 Again, you can -- if you can't attend, certainly

22 read the transcripts and all the comment letters.

23 Absent any other desires to speak or

24 burning desires, I do want to encourage everybody

25 to submit written comments on behalf of your tribe

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1 or at least take this information and bring it back

2 to your decisionmakers. I recognize -- because I

3 used to work for my tribe. I would sit in the back

4 of the room and just sort of gather information and

5 go back to my decisionmakers to inform them and let

6 them make the decision. So I encourage everyone to

7 submit written comments on the drafts that we have

8 out or all the issues that we're talking about in

9 the two groups.

10 Yes, Mark?

11 MR. FOX: Some of us were here earlier,

12 but I missed a majority of it this morning and I

13 was updated somewhat as I came in. Can you touch

14 briefly on -- it seemed to be that something was

15 being mentioned in regards to environmental -- for

16 those of us that weren't here this morning or

17 missed parts of it in regards to EPA testing,

18 Environmental, Public Health and Safety. So what

19 was the bottom line for how the NIGC is going to

20 approach compliance and enforcement? Can you

21 summarize that for us?

22 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: There is a -- yes,

23 I would be happy to. We posted a preliminary draft

24 for discussion purposes only. It's not in the

25 Federal Register. It's a discussion draft. We

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1 posted it last Thursday. And my apologies. We had

2 a glitch in our delivery system, so we didn't have

3 them here in time for the meeting. But it is here

4 now. There is a draft out there available to you

5 today, a hard copy. It's also on the web. It's a

6 revision to the facility licensing regulations.

7 And in terms of EPHS, most of those

8 requirements, not all of them, have been taken out.

9 And here's a summary right behind me. And all that

10 we're asking for from tribes is an attestation that

11 you attest that according to IGRA that the tribe

12 has determined that the construction and

13 maintenance of the gaming facility and the

14 operation of the gaming is conducted in a manner

15 which adequately protects the environment, public

16 health and safety straight from IGRA. That's what

17 the draft has been edited and revised to read. So

18 all of the requirements if you look at the draft

19 for what has to be part of EPHS has been removed.

20 So that's the discussion. That's the discussion

21 draft. So basically the tribe is going to attest

22 and confirm they got it covered in some way. And

23 you don't have to send all of the stuff in, the big

24 list of --

25 MR. FOX: All your code development?

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1 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: That's been

2 removed. And your tribe just has to certify

3 that --

4 MR. FOX: You just have to certify?

5 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Right.

6 MR. FOX: So is there any intention

7 then, any follow up draft regulations regarding

8 subsequent steps that you may or may not take? Say

9 they certify and they test and say: Yeah, there is

10 a resolution on file, here is what we are in

11 compliance with, we are all good to go as far as

12 our facility is concerned, is there any other job

13 regulations that you're contemplating you may have

14 put into place that might require you to follow up

15 further about that, I mean, ask for, you know, an

16 inspection or to get other documentation? Is there

17 anything that you're throwing out there?

18 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: Well, on that

19 second page on page 33 -- or line 33 and 34 it

20 states the tribe shall provide Indian lands or

21 environmental and public health and safety

22 documentation that the Chair may in his or her

23 discretion request. If there's something that

24 comes up, you know, there's a -- reserving the

25 right as the Chair to ask for further information

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1 should there be the -- but no, not -- not other

2 than that phrase.

3 In this also will be some -- there is

4 language with regard to verifying the status of the

5 land, that it is, in fact, Indian land that's

6 eligible for gaming. And this is for new facility

7 licenses or renewals. Now, are you talking about

8 like enforcement action?

9 MR. FOX: Right. I mean, I would view

10 an inspection as an enforcement-type action, if you

11 mandated an inspection based upon information,

12 documentation you received. Let's say you make

13 another request and you get some information and

14 you get further documentation, would you

15 contemplate that as you're able to take another

16 step and say: Well, we're going to do an

17 inspection to see what your compliance levels are

18 with your own laws? Would you see that?

19 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: I think that's a

20 possibility, only -- I think what we're envisioning

21 is that if it's like an emergent situation that

22 would cause serious concern.

23 MS. ECHO-HAWK: I think the intent of

24 this is that, you know, consistently that the NIGC

25 stay in our lane. And so if you see -- if we were

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1 to see things that needed to be addressed either

2 through our agency or through, you know, calling

3 the EPA or -- you know, like if our guys were to

4 come out and be doing an audit or just come in to

5 say: Hey, how are you doing there, Mark, and they

6 were to see something that -- you know, we couldn't

7 not -- we have a responsibility under IGRA that the

8 gaming is conducted in a safe way, which is in a

9 manner which adequately protects the environment

10 and public health and safety. So if an issue were

11 to be brought to our attention that we just

12 couldn't avoid or, you know, something comes up

13 through whatever means much like other issues that

14 come up that may or may not be within our

15 authority, I think we refer things out to law

16 enforcement. If we requested -- if the Chair

17 requested additional information, then where that

18 information leads us I think again going back to

19 compliance and enforcement, working with the tribe

20 to get that into compliance, working with whatever

21 other agencies that may have jurisdiction. Because

22 that's one of the main complaints that we hear from

23 tribes is that: You're asking us to do all this

24 stuff over areas that are appropriately regulated,

25 not just by federal agencies but by tribal law and

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1 the state Compact and where -- you know, how does

2 this fit within your authority as a gaming agency?

3 So it's a fine line. But I think that the

4 way that the regulations are drafted now sort of

5 streamlines the NIGC's authority, makes it a little

6 more clear where -- you know, we're not telling

7 tribes you have to adopt these laws, you have to do

8 this, show us proof of that, tell us you are in

9 compliance, and if not, how are you going to get

10 into compliance, none of that anymore. It's just

11 you certify that you're operating your facility

12 this way. And if something were to come up that

13 indicated you were not, then the Chair would at

14 their discretion request more information and then

15 take it from there, working with the tribes.

16 Again, this is compliance and enforcement first of

17 all.

18 MR. FOX: Yeah. I think and if I take

19 it from there, that might raise some questions in

20 that regards and its relationship to authorities

21 and things of that nature. I just have to throw

22 that out there for now to get a feel for where you

23 might be headed on this. I appreciate that.

24 CHAIRWOMAN STEVENS: I would like the

25 turn to stay in our lane and refer out to the

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1 appropriate agencies or bodies as necessary.

2 Other comments? I'm trying to think of

3 what else we have not talked about. In the absence

4 of further comment, I'll do sort of a last call.

5 Again, please bring this information back if you

6 are just here gathering information to your

7 decision-makers, please provide comment. We have

8 the discussion draft on the fees with a comment

9 period on the -- just the discussion draft for that

10 of May 31st. We also have a discussion draft for

11 the facility regulations which has a comment period

12 for the discussion draft only of June 17th. We

13 will take the information that we gather here in

14 these meetings as well as the written comments as

15 we move forward for a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking

16 if that's what the comments determine and

17 incorporate some of those comments in consideration

18 as we move forward on that.

19 You'll see more discussion drafts coming

20 out. You'll see one on group 2, which is

21 enforcement and proceedings before the Commission,

22 in the next couple of weeks. You'll also see

23 something on the Buy Indian Act coming out again

24 based on the -- what we've seen other federal

25 agencies do with that act. And your comments,

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1 please, on Class III Minimum Internal Control

2 Standards and how you would like to see us proceed

3 or what would the effects be on your tribe in your

4 region with any of the proposed actions that have

5 been suggested to us.

6 So that's my last call. The comments here

7 (indicating), the deadlines, the information you

8 can submit by email, you can submit by fax, you can

9 submit by snail mail if you would like. Anyone

10 brings testimony, give them here. I hope to see

11 you all at another meeting or at least see your

12 comments.

13 I want to thank the staff for your support

14 in arranging these. We could not have these

15 meetings without the support of the staff here in

16 the region that's done such a great job. I want to

17 thank the Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux community for

18 allowing us into their territory and being such

19 gracious hosts for this meeting. We'll probably be

20 around here for the next bit to see if there is any

21 other folks that come in. But other than that, I

22 wish you all safe travels and thank you for

23 attending.

24 (Proceedings adjourned at 2:16 p.m.)

25

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1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

2

STATE OF MINNESOTA )

3 ) ss.

COUNTY OF HENNEPIN )

4

 I hereby certify that I reported the

5 foregoing proceedings on Monday, May 16th, 2011 in

 Prior Lake, Minnesota;

6

7 That the proceedings were transcribed by me

 and is a true record of the proceedings;

8

9 That the cost of the original has been

 charged to the party who noticed the proceedings,

10 and that all parties who ordered copies have been

 charged at the same rate for such copies;

11

12 That I am not a relative or employee or

 attorney or counsel of any of the parties, or a

13 relative or employee of such attorney or counsel;

14

 That I am not financially interested in the

15 action and have no contract with the parties,

 attorneys, or persons with an interest in the

16 action that affects or has a substantial tendency

 to affect my impartiality.

17

18 WITNESS MY HAND AND SEAL THIS 23rd day of

 May, 2011.

19

20

21

22

23

24 Dana S. Anderson-Linnell

Notary Public, Hennepin County, MN

25 My commission expires 1/31/2015

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&

& 2:25

1

1 1:25 19:10,17

28:13 33:10,24

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2006 33:13 42:12

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24 64:8

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2701 93:18 94:16

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514 19:18 21:15

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542 33:15 34:6,11

34:16,19 54:7 55:15

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556 69:24

558 69:24

559 19:21 28:8,18

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9

9 25:9

91 23:13,20,22

51:23

93 48:14

99 87:18

9:00 1:10

a

a.m. 1:10

abide 92:19

abilities 84:13

ability 55:8 86:20

86:21 96:24 100:3

able 35:23 74:15

76:21 88:12 105:4

107:10 111:14

115:15

absence 50:6 118:3

absent 111:23

accept 85:25

accepted 26:12 32:8

accommodated

86:12,14

accommodation

86:24

accounting 21:25

26:12 83:18 85:13

85:16 86:19

accuracy 20:24

accurate 14:23

18:16 21:2,7,9

ace 36:16,17,23,24

67:14

achieved 98:5

acronyms 36:23

act 19:22 26:20

30:15 32:20 42:13

43:25 44:6,20,21

46:4 57:19 60:24

65:22 82:10,24 87:2

98:19 99:8,16,19

118:23,25

action 81:16,25,25

115:8,10 120:15,16

actions 89:14

102:23 119:4

activity 55:5 83:23

88:4 98:17 99:10,20

actual 22:6

add 63:17 70:17

105:13

added 66:1

adding 63:13,16

addition 54:16

additional 29:13

71:3 93:1 103:4

116:17

additionally 25:12

address 17:12 30:24

33:16 34:7 40:17

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105:15

addressed 56:11

116:1

addresses 33:21

56:16

adequate 10:2

adequately 30:13

59:20 60:22 61:3

113:15 116:9

adjourned 119:24

adjust 21:11,12

adjustment 21:13

administration

77:17

administrative 71:8

admission 25:13,20

25:22 26:5

adopt 117:7

adopted 28:25 56:1

advisory 34:16

advocate 95:16 96:3

99:22 101:9

advocating 98:9

affairs 5:23 46:8

92:18

affect 12:14,24 51:4

51:6 78:2 120:16

affiliate 106:20

affiliated 103:8

111:9

afternoon 8:13

102:12

agencies 15:15 29:2

30:21 36:23 41:16

41:18,23 42:1 66:22

66:23 70:3 97:5

116:21,25 118:1,25

agency 10:14,16

25:21 26:7,9 27:24

30:3 32:12 33:14

34:8 37:5 38:2

41:14 42:5,15 44:18

44:24 47:5 51:6

66:16,19 67:20

70:20 71:2 79:17

86:10 87:19,25

88:16,19 89:15 97:9

116:2 117:2

agency's 49:18

82:15

agenda 13:20 19:2

agent 3:9 4:10

aggressive 98:9

aggressively 98:12

98:15

ago 12:16 103:23

108:12

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agreement 109:18

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alleged 56:24

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allowing 73:1

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allows 12:21 72:18

alter 102:25

amend 16:13

amendment 54:4

amortization 21:14

21:17

amount 17:11,16

23:18 24:22 25:2,4

25:5 42:11 51:22

52:14,16 92:1,12,20

amounts 52:4

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ann 5:13

annual 23:11,21

41:7

anomaly 99:13

answer 43:17 45:12

82:7 101:9

anticipate 33:25

39:1 59:8

anybody 91:11

107:7,7 109:17

anymore 117:10

apart 61:12

apologies 113:1

apologize 18:15

28:10 64:7

appeal 68:22 70:10

70:11 71:20 74:18

75:2 76:16 88:19

89:16 92:17,21

appeals 38:4,10

appear 17:14 59:11

61:19

appearance 44:16

appearances 2:1 3:1

4:1 5:1 6:1

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application 77:14

109:15

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applies 27:25

apply 46:17,21

103:18

appreciate 8:17

9:17 11:18 14:3

39:15,21 57:11

86:24 87:7 91:1,18

108:10 109:8

117:23

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35:21 47:20 55:24

67:10 118:1

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41:21,24 42:10

approval 19:19

27:22 28:3 53:15

61:23

approximately

16:16

april 105:7

arbitrary 29:16

arbitration 104:9

area 30:23 54:9 55:7

55:19 58:20 95:17

104:21 108:16

areas 30:21 55:9

58:23 64:17 75:10

79:10 95:22 116:24

arguing 98:12,15

arranged 65:12

arranging 119:14

art 96:16

aside 82:12 93:20

asides 32:24

asked 7:14 11:12

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28:17 32:11 37:16

46:9 71:5

asking 18:3 27:1

47:15 105:10

113:10 116:23

asks 26:8

aspect 83:13

assess 61:11

assessable 22:12

assets 54:14

assist 54:3 94:1 97:1

assistance 10:8,13

36:18,20 67:15 90:9

90:13 91:2,9,12

100:14,23,24 101:8

assistant 4:7 92:19

association 103:10

associations 35:4

assume 81:20

atni 111:9

attend 111:14,21

attendance 101:22

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attendees 101:18

attending 9:17 12:4

111:12 119:23

attention 77:12,13

77:18 105:19,21,25

106:1 116:11

attest 61:7 113:11

113:21

attestation 30:10

61:2,12 63:25

113:10

attorney 5:3 73:2

80:9 120:12,13

attorneys 37:20

38:16 72:5 120:15

attribute 14:25

audience 13:2 103:6

audit 49:6 50:16,16

116:4

audited 50:15

auditing 54:18

auditor 3:6

authorities 45:8

81:6 117:20

authority 4:13 29:1

34:12 63:17,18

80:24 81:1 93:21

94:22 116:15 117:2

117:5

authorization 58:6

authorized 34:11

authorizing 35:14

automatic 25:5

automatically 24:16

available 113:4

avoid 72:19 116:12

avoiding 108:13

aware 55:3 73:19

75:8 104:13

b

b 14:24 21:15 25:13

59:25 61:10 63:2,10

back 7:21,23 9:9,12

11:13 21:22,25 22:1

22:7,11 24:24 25:21

37:15 38:4 39:12

42:19 48:14,16

51:12 53:1,1,4

60:16 63:20 71:9

74:11 82:9 84:17

85:16 86:2 93:12

101:12,21 104:13

105:22 111:16,17

112:1,3,5 116:18

118:5

bad 110:18

balance 17:17

balls 17:23

band 3:4,6,17,21 4:4

4:8,14 5:3,14,17,19

5:23 14:2 80:10

bank 76:7 108:19

banks 110:6

base 21:10 25:3

based 12:19,19

20:17 42:8 51:2,19

51:25 52:5,17,18,19

53:25 77:19,25

94:16 115:11

118:24

baseline 107:19

bases 61:3

basically 22:10

26:18 61:3 73:10

85:12 103:22

107:25 113:21

basing 20:25

basis 20:19 53:24

56:6 73:21 79:21

109:11

bay 98:22

bear 6:8

beatrice 6:8

becky 4:7

becoming 43:2

began 9:20 27:25

beginning 19:10

105:14

behalf 7:25 103:11

111:25

belief 55:12

believe 10:19 42:12

43:8 45:21 48:9

52:10 54:25 55:23

77:10

believes 56:14

beneficiary 110:14

benefit 55:11

better 21:1 38:9,9

48:19 49:25 50:10

71:23 100:21

beyond 49:22

bia 41:23 42:3 44:25

biannual 21:22 22:2

50:8

biannually 24:23

big 79:22 81:3

113:23

bill 82:17

billingsley 95:9

bills 41:9

binders 18:22

bit 18:14 20:5,8

24:25 59:15 64:5

88:20 119:20

black 68:2 72:13,20

blank 25:6 31:10,19

blanks 25:10 64:18

bleeding 37:21

board 4:13 45:21

bodies 43:3 118:1

bois 3:4

boring 37:25

bottom 48:6 86:6,25

108:20 112:19

boundaries 109:21

bounds 108:24

box 32:9

brad 3:3

brains 69:15

breaching 110:5

break 40:6 52:24

53:3 101:13 102:9

102:10,13 111:15

breaking 110:11

brent 6:3

briefly 13:21 80:12

106:22 112:14

bring 37:2,2 46:9

49:10 67:13 77:21

84:21 100:24 112:1

118:5

bringing 83:10

brings 77:12 119:10

broader 100:2

broken 105:8

brought 68:1 77:17

105:19,20,25 106:1

109:23 116:11

budget 12:2 41:25

42:1,2,3 51:7

budgetary 41:5

bueller's 111:2

buffalo 8:6 80:8,8

82:9 89:20 98:6,6

build 108:1

building 76:6

built 70:19

bulletin 56:5,16

94:23

bulletins 54:22,23

58:2

bunch 91:10 95:18

burdensome 52:20

bureau 46:7 92:18

burn 12:4,5

burned 104:20

burning 111:24

burnout 41:4

business 8:1 44:19

46:24 88:17,20

businesses 32:25

45:4 46:20,22 47:2

89:1 99:5,6

busy 8:17 101:15

button 18:9,9 78:11

buy 19:22 32:19,20

39:2 40:12 43:25

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44:6,17,20,21 45:2

46:4,21 47:20 57:19

65:22 102:17

118:23

buying 46:19

buzz 99:3

c

c 7:1 15:12 23:9

calculate 27:3,11

49:9

calculated 51:19

calculating 22:12

26:13 51:2

calculation 20:16,23

20:25 22:6,9 25:23

27:3,5 48:20 49:21

91:4

calendar 20:18,20

20:22 50:13,18,20

california 34:10

58:11 77:2 78:4

100:17,17 111:19

call 36:17 61:19

79:1 96:25 118:4

119:6

called 25:19 60:1

calling 48:7 116:2

calls 61:10

calorie 8:5

campa 3:9

cap 42:11

capacity 99:25

careful 11:24

carpets 31:14

carry 55:10 63:11

case 16:7 95:5

104:24 109:11,11

111:13

cases 87:18 88:5

casino 1:14 4:3 7:20

10:25 51:12 78:20

casinos 11:7 48:10

51:9 98:14

catch 8:13

cause 24:17 85:25

115:22

century 32:6,6

certain 17:12 25:3

36:2,6 51:22 54:22

75:9,18 79:9 89:24

91:25 92:20 94:4

97:23,25

certainly 46:17,20

52:8 58:25 64:24

67:10 72:3,6 77:20

78:1 91:7 92:11

97:20 99:8 101:14

101:17,25 106:9,15

108:12 110:23

111:11,21

certificate 120:1

certify 114:2,4,9

117:11 120:4

certifying 30:10

cetera 32:17 67:5

94:19

cfr 53:13,14,16

56:20

chair 2:6 29:12,23

30:1 31:1 32:3 60:1

60:9 77:15 78:7,11

78:16,22,25 79:7,20

92:8 114:22,25

116:16 117:13

chair's 29:12

chairman 4:16,19

4:22 7:11 8:1 9:2

10:9 11:23 82:16,18

83:1 97:12

chairperson 2:22

5:9 28:3 62:19,25

63:16 68:17,23 69:6

84:16

chairpersons 83:8

chairwoman 2:3 6:8

7:3 9:1,4,15 13:14

13:17 14:4 33:17

36:18 39:12,14

41:15,20 42:18

43:16,19 44:12

46:14 47:7,12,17

48:22 50:5 51:15

53:6 57:9 60:14

62:2 64:3 72:2

76:19 77:11 80:6

81:11 83:12 89:17

89:22 95:15 96:12

96:18 97:17 101:10

102:8,11 105:5

106:25 107:9 109:3

111:5 112:22 114:1

114:5,18 115:19

117:24

challenges 55:23

84:10

chance 8:4 88:9

change 21:16 22:4

22:16 25:24 26:9,10

26:13,24 63:2 78:1

85:17 102:25

changed 25:14 30:6

31:22 85:3

changes 20:15 22:19

27:9 29:8,9 50:8

56:6,9,11,17 85:15

86:21 89:10

changing 10:1,1

25:15 56:7

charge 36:5 42:18

charged 95:7,7

120:9,10

chief 3:12 77:23

78:2 82:2

chippewa 3:4,7,18

3:21 4:5,8,14 5:4,14

5:17,20

choice 104:5

chooses 56:17

chris 9:14 42:19,21

42:24 49:6 50:21,24

51:15

christie 3:20

christina 5:16

christopher 2:8

chunk 2:14 41:2

circumstances

29:25 35:20 74:14

92:2,5 97:25 106:13

citation 67:1

city 14:7 24:3 88:16

103:13,20 104:13

106:2

civil 37:22 71:1,7

clarification 40:22

77:6 79:5,9

clarifications 103:5

clarifies 24:20

clarify 25:24 26:6

27:10 31:5 46:22

101:20

clarifying 22:5 72:6

class 19:25 20:3

33:12 40:16,17 54:8

54:21 55:15,19,21

57:20,22,22,24 58:9

65:24 102:20

111:17 119:1

clause 29:23

cleaning 21:19

clear 19:5 44:14

45:7 46:15 54:22

72:12 78:5,23 97:18

117:6

cleared 76:11

clearing 83:16

clearly 56:22

client 80:15

clients 59:6,13 63:21

84:1 85:10 89:19

90:21

close 31:13,14 64:10

101:23

closed 31:18 65:4

89:3

closely 59:12

closer 90:15

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closes 27:14 31:3

32:15 38:23,25

closure 23:25 31:6,9

31:9 64:11,15

closures 64:10,19

clumped 17:6

cochran 10:10

code 113:25

coeur 111:10

coffee 52:25

cognizant 90:25

coincidentally 103:9

cold 52:1

colder 14:8

collecting 24:21

30:19

come 7:8,14 10:22

13:4,22 18:12 21:2

21:6 24:14 33:8,20

37:10 39:9 40:4

41:24 43:4 53:4

76:7 84:6 85:16

87:19 91:15 94:18

95:17,17 96:4,7,22

97:4,11 101:12

105:11 109:9 116:4

116:4,14 117:12

119:21

comes 21:13 29:6

73:23 75:16 76:7,17

80:22 89:8 93:4

98:3 109:14 114:24

116:12

coming 33:2 39:19

79:25 103:22 108:9

118:19,23

commending 59:9

comment 16:16,22

18:18 27:13 32:14

38:22,24 41:6 45:22

51:11 53:23 57:16

57:18,19 64:24

101:13,19 106:14

111:22 118:4,7,8,11

comments 10:5

13:23 14:25 16:1,2

16:11,19 17:10 18:3

18:7,12,21,25 19:3

20:25 27:17,19

28:19 29:3,7,14

30:17 31:11 32:16

32:18,21 35:12,15

35:16,19 36:13

37:25 40:5,11 43:20

44:1 47:24 48:4

49:2 50:5,12 51:9

52:2,11 53:3,4,8,13

53:19,25 57:4 59:1

59:7 65:6 66:12

72:6 89:19,21 90:22

91:2,17 92:6 93:1

102:3,14 103:5

106:16 107:10

111:25 112:7 118:2

118:14,16,17,25

119:6,12

commercial 55:2

commission 1:1 2:4

2:22 5:9,13 6:8 9:5

11:6 15:7,9,14 16:8

18:17 19:4,6 20:24

21:8 27:8 35:11,23

36:14,22 37:17 38:5

38:12 39:4 42:9

43:7,12 44:18 45:24

46:8 47:15 50:25

51:5 57:8 59:16

60:11 63:18 66:3,11

68:17,23 69:6,19,21

70:13,19 71:5 72:22

73:3 74:4 79:7,11

79:20,25 80:14,25

86:22 87:11 90:8

102:25 118:21

120:25

commissioner 3:23

5:6 10:18 11:22

47:11

commissioners 9:21

11:25 12:7 18:20

73:20 83:13

commissions 35:6

81:5 93:9 100:8

commitment 15:5

18:17 36:14

committed 19:4

committee 34:16

common 43:2 73:23

communication

81:21

communities 10:22

community 7:12 8:4

8:21 119:17

compact 12:19

55:22 58:15 75:18

117:1

compacting 34:8

compacts 58:18

65:13

companies 43:5

compelling 71:18

complaint 84:25

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Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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elliot 2:25

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[elliot - favorable] Page 8

Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

800-227-8440 973-410-4040
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Veritext/NJ Reporting Company

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