Exhibit A 

Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 1 of 63 PageID #:17256
1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2 FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS

3 EASTERN DIVISION

4 ________________________________

5 HANGZHOU CHIC INTELLIGENT

6 TECHNOLOGY CO. and UNICORN

7 GLOBAL, INC.,

8 Plaintiffs,

9 v. Case No.

10 THE PARTNERSHIPS AND 1:20-cv11 UNICORPORATED ASSOCIATIONS 04806

12 IDENTIFIED ON SCHEDULE A,

13 Defendants.

14 ________________________________

15 VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF

16 JIM GANDY

17 DATE: Wednesday, October 26, 2022

18 TIME: 10:04 a.m.

19 LOCATION: Remote Proceeding

20 Southport, North Carolina

21 REPORTED BY: Arkady Sandoval, Notary Public

22 JOB NO.: 5506428

23

24

25

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 ON BEHALF OF PLAINTIFFS HANGZHOU CHIC INTELLIGENT

3 TECHNOLOGY CO. and UNICORN GLOBAL, INC.:

4 MARK BERKOWITZ, ESQUIRE (by videoconference)

5 Tarter Krinsky & Drogin, LLP

6 1350 Broadway

7 New York, NY 10018

8 mberkowitz@tarterkrinsky.com

9 212-216-1166

10

11 ON BEHALF OF JIM GANDY:

12 ROBIN HE CHENG, ESQUIRE (by videoconference)

13 Glacier Law, PLLC (NY)

14 200 Park Avenue, Suite 1703

15 New York, NY 10166

16 robin.cheng@glacier.law

17

18 ALSO PRESENT:

19 Chandler Sturm, Esquire (by videoconference)

20 Queena Zhang, Esquire (by videoconference)

21

22

23

24

25

Page 3

1 I N D E X

2 EXAMINATION: PAGE

3 By Mr. Berkowitz 6

4 By Mr. Cheng 125

5

6 E X H I B I T S

7 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE

8 Exhibit 1 Jim Gandy Opening Report 19

9 Exhibit 2 Jim Gandy Rebuttal Report 56

10 Exhibit 3 Expert Declaration of Lance Rake 73

11 (Exhibits attached.)

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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1 J. GANDY

2 THE REPORTER: Good morning. My name

3 is Arkady Sandoval; I am the reporter

4 assigned by Veritext to take the record of

5 this proceeding. We are now on the record

6 at 10:04 a.m.

7 This is the deposition of Jim Gandy

8 taken in the matter of

9 Hangzhou Chic Intelligent Technology Co.,

10 and Unicorn Global, Inc., v.

11 The Partnerships and Unicorported

12 Associations Identified on Schedule A at

13 on October 26, 2022, at 5961 Spikerush

14 Trail, Southport, North Carolina.

15 I am a notary authorized to take

16 acknowledgments and administer oaths in

17 New Jersey and New York. Parties agree

18 that I will swear in the witness remotely

19 outside of his presence.

20 Additionally, absent an objection on

21 the record before the witness is sworn,

22 all parties and the witness understand and

23 agree that any certified transcript

24 produced from the recording virtually of

25 this proceeding:

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1 J. GANDY

2 - is intended for all uses permitted

3 under applicable procedural and

4 evidentiary rules and laws in the same

5 manner as a deposition recorded by

6 stenographic means; and

7 - shall constitute written

8 stipulation of such.

9 At this time will counsel please

10 identify themselves for the record.

11 Mr. Cheng, if you could begin?

12 MR. CHENG: Good morning. My name is

13 He Cheng and also Robin Cheng, and I am

14 the counsel for the deponent.

15 MR. BERKOWITZ: Good morning. This

16 is Mark Berkowitz, and I am here with

17 Chandler Sturm, both of Tarter Krinsky &

18 Drogin, on behalf of plaintiffs.

19 THE REPORTER: Thank you.

20 Hearing no objection, I will now

21 swear in the witness.

22 Mr. Gandy, please raise your right

23 hand.

24 //

25 //

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1 J. GANDY

2 WHEREUPON,

3 JIM GANDY,

4 called as a witness, and having been first

5 duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole

6 truth, and nothing but the truth, was

7 examined and testified as follows:

8 THE REPORTER: Thank you. Counsel.

9 EXAMINATION

10 BY MR. BERKOWITZ:

11 Q Good morning, Mr. Gandy.

12 A Good morning.

13 Q If you don't mind, could you

14 state your full name for the record?

15 A Yes, my name is James M. Gandy.

16 Q Okay. Do you normally go by

17 Jim?

18 A I go by Jim.

19 Q Okay. I see on some of your

20 forms, you say "Jim," sometimes you say

21 "James." Just want to make sure I have

22 the right person today.

23 A Yes.

24 Q Okay. So my name is

25 Mark Berkowitz. I am one of the

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1 J. GANDY

2 attorney's for plaintiffs in this case.

3 We are doing this remotely today.

4 Obviously, if there are any technical

5 problems, you have trouble hearing or

6 video drops out, let us know. We can

7 always take a break. It seems like it

8 happens at least once or twice during

9 these things.

10 A Okay.

11 Q But we'll do our best. Have you

12 had your deposition taken before?

13 A Yes, I have.

14 Q How many times?

15 A I think five.

16 Q Okay. When was the last time

17 you had your deposition taken?

18 A 2021.

19 Q Okay. So that was, I guess,

20 during the pandemic?

21 A Yes.

22 Q So you've done a remote

23 deposition before?

24 A Yes, I've done two remote

25 depositions.

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1 J. GANDY

2 Q Very good. Okay. So you're

3 familiar with the process.

4 A Yes.

5 Q Okay. So today I'm going to be

6 asking you some questions. The reporter

7 is going to be taking down your answers.

8 Do you understand that you are under oath?

9 A Yes, I do.

10 Q Do you know what that oath

11 means?

12 A That I have to tell the truth,

13 whatever questions you're asking me.

14 Q Great. The court reporter

15 mentioned some of the ground rules. I'll

16 just go over them quickly. I know you're

17 familiar with the process. So I'm going

18 to be asking a series of questions. If

19 you don't understand my question, ask to

20 clarify it. Is that okay?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Okay. I'm going to assume that

23 you understand the questions that I ask

24 unless you tell me that you don't

25 understand then. Is that fair?

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1 J. GANDY

2 A Yes, that's fair.

3 Q You understand that your counsel

4 may object from time to time, but unless

5 you're instructed not to, you still need

6 to answer.

7 A Yes, I understand.

8 Q Okay. Try to avoid any non9 audible responses -- the head nods and

10 head shakes -- because the court reporter

11 is taking down a verbatim transcript. Is

12 that all right?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Okay. Since we're doing this

15 remotely, let's try not to talk over each

16 other, again, for the benefit of the court

17 reporter so we have a nice, clear record.

18 Is that all right?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Okay. If at any time you need a

21 break, of course just please tell us. The

22 only thing I ask is that if we are in the

23 middle of a question, please answer and

24 then we can go take our break. Is that

25 all right?

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2 A Okay. Sure, that's fine.

3 Q Is there any reason you would

4 not be able to provide truthful and

5 complete testimony today?

6 A I don't think so.

7 Q Are you on any medications that

8 would interfere with your ability to

9 provide complete and truthful testimony?

10 A No.

11 Q Any health issues that would

12 interfere with your ability to provide a

13 complete and truthful testimony?

14 A No.

15 Q Okay. Thank you. Do you have

16 an understanding as to why you're here

17 today?

18 A Yes, I do.

19 Q What is that understanding, sir?

20 A That I'm here to, I guess,

21 discuss my reports that I have provided to

22 Mr. Cheng in this case.

23 Q You have an understanding of

24 what this case relates to generally?

25 A Yes. It relates to hoverboard

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1 J. GANDY

2 designs.

3 Q Okay. You understand that the

4 plaintiffs accuse the defendants of

5 infringing a number of design patents

6 relating to hoverboards; is that fair?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q Okay. And it's your

9 understanding that the defendants dispute

10 those contentions; is that fair?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Okay. So we represent, there's

13 two plaintiffs. There's Hangzhou Chic,

14 and there's Unicorn Global. To avoid

15 having to continually butcher those names,

16 I'm going to call them "plaintiffs." Is

17 that all right with you?

18 A Sure.

19 Q And I understand that your

20 report was provided to Mr. Cheng on

21 benefit of eight different defendants. Is

22 that your understanding as well?

23 A That's my understanding, yes.

24 Q So I'm going to refer to them

25 collectively as "defendants," if that's

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1 J. GANDY

2 all right with you.

3 A That's fine.

4 Q Okay. If there is a situation

5 that arises where you want to refer to a

6 specific defendant, just please go ahead

7 and point that out, and I will do the

8 same. I'm not sure if that situation will

9 come up, but just to avoid any issues.

10 A That's fine.

11 Q When did you first get engaged

12 to work in this matter?

13 A I was contacted by Mr. Cheng in

14 August of 2021.

15 Q Prior to that, had you worked

16 with any of the defendants in this case

17 before?

18 A No, I have not.

19 Q Had you heard of any of the

20 defendants in this case before?

21 A No, I had not.

22 Q Any familiarity with their

23 products prior to 2021?

24 A Not prior to being contacted,

25 yes.

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1 J. GANDY

2 Q Okay. Had you previously worked

3 with Mr. Cheng before?

4 A No, I have not.

5 Q Had you worked with his law

6 firm, Glacier Firm, before?

7 A No, no I have not.

8 Q Okay. Were you contacted

9 directly by Mr. Cheng or through an

10 agency?

11 A I was contacted by Mr. Cheng.

12 Q Okay. And I just have to ask

13 these questions. Do you have any

14 financial interest in any of the

15 defendants?

16 A No, I do not.

17 Q Okay. But you are being paid

18 hourly for your work on this case; is that

19 correct?

20 A That's correct, yes.

21 Q I believe it's 350 an hour?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q Okay. And is your compensation,

24 does that hourly rate vary depending on

25 whether you're writing reports,

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2 participating in depositions, trial,

3 anything like that?

4 A No, it's the same for any of

5 those situations.

6 Q Okay. And is any of your

7 compensation dependent on the outcome of

8 this lawsuit?

9 A No, it's not.

10 Q Besides the defendants and

11 counsel for the defendants, have you

12 spoken with anybody about this case?

13 A No. No, I have not.

14 Q That was actually a poor

15 question. Have you ever spoken directly

16 with any of the defendants in this case?

17 A No, I have not.

18 Q So your only contacts concerning

19 this case are with counsel?

20 A That's correct. That's correct.

21 Mr. Cheng is the only person I have spoken

22 to about this case.

23 Q Got it. And did you do anything

24 to prepare for today?

25 A I'm sorry, what was that?

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1 J. GANDY

2 Q Did you do anything to prepare

3 for today's deposition?

4 A I've gone over my reports, and I

5 had just a prep session with Mr. Cheng,

6 just to go over some of the questions that

7 he felt that I might be asked.

8 Q So when did you meet with

9 Mr. Cheng?

10 A That was last Wednesday, I

11 believe it was. Yes.

12 Q You just met with Mr. Cheng that

13 one time?

14 A I met with Mr. Cheng last

15 Wednesday. I met with one of his

16 colleagues, Iris, I think it's Ju

17 yesterday.

18 Q And again, did you speak with

19 anybody else besides the attorneys about

20 this case?

21 A No. No, I have not.

22 Q And besides your expert reports,

23 did you review any other materials in

24 preparation for today?

25 A Just my reports. I looked at

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1 J. GANDY

2 Mr. Hatch's reports again, which I

3 rebutted. That's basically it.

4 Q When you say "Mr. Hatch's

5 report," did you review both his initial

6 expert report and his rebuttal report?

7 A Yes, I have.

8 Q Okay. Did you review the expert

9 -- I'm sorry, strike that. Did you review

10 the reports of any other experts in this

11 case?

12 A No, I have not.

13 Q Are you familiar with an

14 individual named Lance Rake?

15 A No, I'm not.

16 Q Do you know whether the

17 defendants in this case have retained any

18 other experts?

19 A I'm not aware of that. I have

20 not been told that.

21 Q Have you reviewed the accused

22 products in this case?

23 A I have reviewed them through the

24 photographs that I have received.

25 Q Have you inspected any physical

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1 J. GANDY

2 products?

3 A No, I have not.

4 Q You have not ridden any of the

5 hoverboards?

6 A No.

7 Q Just kidding. All right. So

8 I'm going to bring up what I'm going to

9 mark as Exhibit 1, your expert report.

10 But before I do that, Mr. Gandy, do you

11 have any papers in front of you? Any

12 copies of your reports or anything like

13 that? I have some portions of the copies

14 of my report that I felt maybe I might

15 need to refer to, depending on the

16 questions that are asked.

17 Q Okay. But you don't have a full

18 set there with you?

19 A No, no I do not.

20 Q Okay. So I'm going to go ahead

21 and as I go put the exhibits into the chat

22 so you can download them. And I can also

23 bring them up on the screen so we can look

24 at them together.

25 A Okay.

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2 Q If I knew how to do that.

3 MR. BERKOWITZ: Sorry, question for

4 the court reporter. Am I able to drop

5 exhibits into the chat?

6 THE REPORTER: So yeah, let me just

7 jump in here. Mr. Berkowitz, from what I

8 understand, copying and pasting doesn't

9 work with the Zoom chat. I mean, if you

10 want to share on the screen, you can do

11 that. If you want to e-mail them to me, I

12 can share them as well.

13 MR. BERKOWITZ: No, I'll just share

14 them as we go, then. No problem.

15 THE REPORTER: Okay.

16 BY MR. BERKOWITZ:

17 Q Okay. Mr. Gandy, can you see

18 that I've shared a document with you?

19 A Yes, yes I can.

20 Q Okay. I'm going to Zoom out

21 just a bit, and I'm going to go ahead and

22 mark this as Exhibit 1. I will just

23 quickly show you the first page and the

24 last page. It's an 86-page document,

25 which ends with an Exhibit 1, that's your

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1 J. GANDY

2 CV. And there is a signature on page 82

3 of the document.

4 (Exhibit 1 was marked for

5 identification.)

6 A Sure.

7 Q Do you see that?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Okay. Are you familiar with

10 this document?

11 A Yes, I am.

12 Q And what is this document?

13 A It's my rebuttal report on

14 noninfringement, rebutting Mr. Hatch's

15 report.

16 Q I actually don't think it is. I

17 think this is a report, a document dated

18 September 23, 2021, and I'll represent

19 that this was served on us again on August

20 16th of 2022 as an opening report. Maybe

21 you want to take a few minutes and just

22 scroll through. I can start at the top

23 and make sure you're familiar with this

24 document. Is that all right?

25 A Sure, that's fine. Okay. Yeah,

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1 J. GANDY

2 I'm aware of this. Yeah, it was not

3 the -- I believe it was not the rebuttal

4 report to Mr. Hatch's.

5 Q Yes. Do you remember preparing

6 this report that we have on the screen

7 right now?

8 A Sure. Oh, yes.

9 Q When did you prepare this

10 report?

11 A It was in August of last year.

12 I believe I finished up on it in early

13 September, based on that date, September

14 3rd. I seem to remember it was around the

15 first of September that I finished it.

16 Q Okay. Do you remember the

17 context as to why you prepared this

18 report?

19 A Yes. It was basically for the

20 purpose of giving my opinion as to

21 noninfringement of the four design patents

22 in the case.

23 Q Okay. And who drafted this

24 report?

25 A I did.

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1 J. GANDY

2 Q Okay. Did you draft the report

3 in its entirety?

4 A Yes, I did.

5 Q What was your process for

6 drafting the report?

7 A Initially just reviewing the

8 documents that Mr. Cheng had sent to me

9 for the purpose of understanding what the

10 case was about and then sending me

11 photographs of the alleged infringing

12 designs, hoverboard designs. Once I had

13 all of those and then was able to

14 formulate an opinion, I began to write a

15 report.

16 Q Okay. You mentioned that you

17 had received some documents from counsel.

18 Do you recall what those documents were?

19 A I think they're listed on there.

20 I have in front of me, if you want, I can

21 take a look at my report where I've listed

22 what I did look at. Obviously, I looked

23 at the four design patents. I looked at

24 all of the alleged infringing devices. I

25 believe I looked at the defendants' motion

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2 for summary judgment.

3 Q Okay.

4 A And then, obviously, I have it

5 on there that I saw, I did look at

6 Mr. Hatch's expert report.

7 Q Okay. We'll circle back to that

8 a little bit later. Did anybody help you

9 prepare the report?

10 A No.

11 Q Did you base the report in any

12 way on any prior expert reports?

13 A No, no. When you're saying "any

14 prior expert reports," are you talking

15 about his particular subject matter,

16 hoverboards?

17 Q Good question. No, I was

18 actually asking about any prior expert

19 reports that you prepared for other cases?

20 A I may have used some of the

21 language about my background and what my

22 expertise is, and my understanding of the

23 law.

24 Q Got it. So I note there are

25 several reports and declarations that were

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1 J. GANDY

2 prepared in these cases. If it's all

3 right, I just want to refer to this

4 document that we've marked as Exhibit 1 as

5 your report, your opening report. Is that

6 all right with you?

7 A Sure. That's fine.

8 Q I want to just go all the way to

9 the end to your CV. We'll start there

10 talking about your background, if that's

11 all right.

12 A Sure. That's fine.

13 Q Okay. So we're now looking at

14 Exhibit 1 of we've marked as Exhibit 1,

15 Mr. Gandy's opening report, and what

16 appears to be his CV. Is that correct?

17 A Yes, that's correct.

18 Q When did you prepare this CV?

19 A I prepared this CV not long

20 after I retired from the patent office,

21 knowing that I was going to, I was

22 interested in doing expert witness work

23 and consulting work in design patents. So

24 I prepared my CV back in 2005.

25 Q Have you updated it since then?

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1 J. GANDY

2 A I've updated it as far as any of

3 the cases that I've been involved in, yes.

4 Q Okay. Do you recall the last

5 time that you updated the CV?

6 A Whatever the last case that I

7 was involved in, that would be the last

8 time I updated it.

9 Q Okay. Besides this particular

10 matter between plaintiffs and defendants,

11 are you providing expert services in any

12 other cases?

13 A You mean, have I currently been

14 retained in other cases?

15 Q Yes.

16 A At this time?

17 Q Yes, sir.

18 A Yes, I've been retained in

19 another case that doesn't involve anything

20 like this case. But I've been retained in

21 another case, yes.

22 Q Okay. So I guess let's step

23 through your education and background, and

24 then we can talk about your testifying

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1 J. GANDY

2 date.

3 THE REPORTER: Counsel, if I could

4 interrupt just for one moment. I have

5 someone trying to enter in. Queena Zhang.

6 MR. BERKOWITZ: It's okay.

7 MR. CHENG: Yes. She is with us. If

8 you can get her admitted to the session,

9 it would be good. Thank you.

10 MR. BERKOWITZ: All right. Thank

11 you.

12 BY MR. BERKOWITZ:

13 Q So let's start with your college

14 education. It says here you attended

15 Temple University. Is that correct?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q And you received a bachelor of

18 science in architectural design

19 technology. Is that right?

20 A That's correct.

21 Q Can you tell us a little bit

22 about what type of course work is involved

23 in architectural design technology degree?

24 A Are you asking me what kind of

25 courses I took while I was in college?

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2 Q What kind of, well, tell me a

3 little bit more about the architectural

4 design technology degree and what that --

5 in order to obtain that degree, what type

6 of course work is required?

7 A Well, obviously, engineering

8 classes, physics classes, obviously

9 architectural design classes, classes like

10 perspective and rendering in being about

11 to draw renderings and perspectives.

12 Urban design, calculus. Again, most of

13 the engineering and science courses along

14 with the actual architectural courses.

15 Q Any product design course work?

16 A No, not at that time.

17 Q So you graduated from Temple in

18 1972; is that correct?

19 A That's correct.

20 Q And following your graduation

21 you went straight to working at the patent

22 office?

23 A That's correct.

24 Q And I will start there with your

25 first position at the patent office. And

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1 J. GANDY

2 that was in 1972; is that right?

3 A That's correct, yes.

4 Q Okay. So you started as a

5 design patent examiner; is that right?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q And in your own words, what kind

8 of patents were you examining when you

9 first started in 1972?

10 A When I first started, actually I

11 was in the area of furnishings, like

12 furniture design. The art unit I came

13 into in June of 1972 basically had fine

14 arts type work, and like I said, I started

15 working in D6, which is furnishings,

16 mostly furniture.

17 In I believe it was December or

18 January of 2002-2003, I was transferred to

19 the other design art unit in the

20 technology center because there was a

21 conflict of an examiner who had been

22 hired. His brother was in the same art

23 unit, and they couldn't do that. So I was

24 transferred into what was at that time

25 292. Or -- I'm sorry -- 291. And when I

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2 was transferred over there, I primarily

3 worked in the area of transportation, D12.

4 I also worked in the area of agricultural

5 vehicles. I worked in the area of

6 hardware, D8. And I also worked in the

7 area of automotive engine parts.

8 Q I don't want to interrupt you,

9 but I believe you said December of 2002 to

10 2003. I'm assuming that's not what you

11 meant.

12 A Well, December of 2002, January

13 2003. I don't remember exactly when. I

14 was only in the office about six months

15 when that happened.

16 Q What I'm saying is, did you mean

17 1972 to 1973?

18 A Yes. 1972 to 1973. Yes,

19 correct.

20 Q Okay. And when you were working

21 in the class D12, handling class D12

22 applications, can you give us some more

23 specifics as to what kind of products you

24 were seeing?

25 A I worked in the entire area of

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1 J. GANDY

2 land transportation, so I worked on

3 anything that would be transportation on

4 land, like snowmobiles, sleds, bicycles,

5 motorcycles, obviously automobiles,

6 trucks.

7 Q Got it. So you were

8 initially -- when you first entered the

9 patent office, what was your title?

10 A I was an assistant design patent

11 examiner.

12 Q And at some point, did your

13 title change?

14 A Yes. The process at the patent

15 office for examiners, both design and

16 utility, is you come in as an assistant at

17 whatever grade you're hired at, and it

18 normally takes about six or seven years

19 until you have a -- if your work is

20 sufficient, adequate -- you have an

21 opportunity to be promoted at the end of

22 every year.

23 Then you get to a point where

24 you can, what they call a partial

25 signatory review program and then a full

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2 signatory review program.

3 The full signatory review

4 program is a six-month program. At the

5 end of the six months, supervisors review

6 your work and determine whether you have

7 adequately made the proper determinations

8 on patentability, and if you have, then

9 you be promoted to what's called a primary

10 examiner. At that point, you have full

11 signatory authority to make all decisions

12 on patentability.

13 Q Understood. It says here, "In

14 1979, I was promoted to primary examiner

15 and granted full signatory authority."

16 A That's correct.

17 Q So that's the correct year,

18 1979?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And is it correct that you

21 remained as a primary patent examiner all

22 the way up through 1996?

23 A That's correct, yes.

24 Q And between 1979 and 1996, did

25 your responsibilities or role change at

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2 all?

3 A As a primary examiner, I mean,

4 when I was, at times I would act as the

5 supervisor for the art unit when the

6 supervisor was away. I was, I trained new

7 examiners that came in and reviewed their

8 work and made recommendations to the

9 supervisor when they were eligible for

10 promotion.

11 Q Okay. And did you continue to

12 review patents in the same classes that we

13 discussed?

14 A Yes. Yes. At times, at the

15 end, towards the end of the fiscal year,

16 because there were issues of backlogs of

17 cases, I was asked to work in different

18 art areas to help move cases along. So

19 I've worked in -- I think I've indicated,

20 may have indicated in my CV -- I've worked

21 in pretty much every design class there

22 is.

23 Q Okay. And 1996 comes about, and

24 you are promoted to a supervisory patent

25 examiner? Is that correct?

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2 A That's correct.

3 Q Okay. And how do your

4 responsibilities change from a primary

5 examiner to a supervisory patent examiner?

6 A Well, as a supervisor patent

7 examiner, you're the supervisor of an art

8 unit that can consist of anywhere from

9 about 9 to 12 examiners, and you are

10 responsible for those examiners' work.

11 And at the end of the fiscal year, you're

12 required to do a review and recommendation

13 as to whether their work is satisfactory

14 or whether it's commendable or whether

15 it's outstanding or whether it's

16 unsatisfactory.

17 Q As a supervisory patent

18 examiner, are you still independently

19 reviewing design patents, design

20 applications?

21 A Once as a supervisor, I no

22 longer have design patent applications

23 that are assigned to me for the purpose of

24 examination. I'm examining the examiners,

25 assistant examiners, at that point. I'm

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2 reviewing all of their work and signing

3 off on their actions if they're correct.

4 Q Understood. So your time period

5 at the patent office for examining

6 applications on your own was from 1972 to

7 1996; is that fair?

8 A That's correct, yes.

9 Q Okay. And you mentioned during

10 the earlier period in the supervisor

11 training junior examiners?

12 A That's correct. Yes.

13 Q Can you tell us a little bit

14 about how you go about, I guess, training

15 a new patent examiner?

16 A Well, basically you're training

17 them with all of the, on all of the

18 elements that they're expected to be able

19 to perform as an examiner. And that

20 includes examining applications, that

21 includes their office actions. But as far

22 as their production goes -- because every

23 examiner has production. That's based in

24 strictly the supervisor's responsibility.

25 Q Are there any guidelines that

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2 the examiners have to follow when they're

3 examining a design patent application?

4 A Well, yeah. Obviously, they

5 have to examine the specification, make

6 sure that the specification is accurate

7 with respect to the drawings. They have

8 to review the drawings to make sure that

9 all the views are consistent with each

10 other so they meet the requirements of

11 definiteness and enablement under

12 35 U.S.C. 112.

13 They obviously when they're

14 looking at prior art, have to be able to

15 determine whether the prior art that

16 they've found, rendered a claim obvious or

17 anticipated, or whether the claim would be

18 allowable over that prior art.

19 Q Did you train new examiners in

20 patent searching?

21 A I'm sorry, did I train them in

22 searching?

23 Q Yes, sir.

24 A Yeah. I mean, I would have to

25 review, I would -- until they became

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1 J. GANDY

2 familiar with the areas to search, I

3 would, you know, give them, you know, the

4 areas that would be required to search,

5 depending on what the subject matter was.

6 Q Okay.

7 A They learn very quickly, because

8 they normally will be assigned to

9 particular art areas, and they learn very

10 quickly as to where the actual class and

11 subclass searching as well as potential

12 publications, where they would need to

13 search.

14 Q Is there any, I guess, written

15 guidelines or policies that the examiner

16 would follow in reviewing a new

17 application?

18 A Well, I mean, the

19 Manual of Patent Examining Procedure,

20 Chapter 1500, is on design patents. So

21 that is where they need to familiarize

22 themselves with what the rules and what

23 the proper statutes are to be applied in

24 examining design patent applications.

25 Q But beyond the MPEP,

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2 Chapter 1500, is there any other written

3 policies or guidelines that the examiner

4 would follow?

5 A Well, there's the rules that

6 apply to design patents that are in the

7 Code of Federal Regulations. And then

8 there are the statutes that they have to

9 be familiar with what the particular

10 sections of the statute are that apply to

11 design patents.

12 Q Okay. So going back to your CV,

13 you were a supervisory patent examiner

14 from 1996 to 1998; is that correct?

15 A That's correct, yes.

16 Q And from there, you were

17 elevated to be the design patent practice

18 specialist; is that correct?

19 A That's correct, yes.

20 Q Okay. And you were in that role

21 from 1998 to 2005; is that right?

22 A That's correct, yes.

23 Q And how did your, I guess, job

24 responsibilities change as a design patent

25 practice specialist?

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2 A Well, I no longer had the

3 responsibility of any examiners as a

4 supervisor in an art unit. As the

5 practice specialist, I was mainly -- the

6 practice specialist position basically

7 came into being based on a program that

8 the patent office had initiated. Which

9 was an in-process review program, in which

10 practice specialists would review the

11 office actions of all examiners in the

12 entire technology center to determine

13 whether the actions that they had taken

14 were correct. I would have to review

15 those applications and then prepare a

16 report on all of the elements that would

17 be required for the examiner to do in each

18 of these cases.

19 I also was in charge of training

20 all new examiners that were, that came

21 into the office. And then I was

22 responsible for continued education

23 training for all design patent examiners

24 in the technology center. I was in charge

25 of reviewing all of the decisions that

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2 were coming back from the board of appeals

3 and the court of appeals for the federal

4 circuit, to determine whether there were

5 any issues that needed to be addressed.

6 I was in charge of preparing the

7 design patent examiner supplemental

8 training guide, which was strictly a

9 training material that was for design

10 patent examiners.

11 Q Okay. The design examiners

12 supplemental training guide, was that a

13 publicly issued document, or was that an

14 internal document.

15 A No. No, it was an in-office

16 document. All of the materials that I

17 would prepare for that particular document

18 had to go through the office of the

19 assistant commissioner on policy and

20 procedure to make sure everything that I

21 was indicating as far as dealing with

22 different issues under the statutes or

23 under the rules were correct.

24 Q Okay. So after 2005, did you

25 retire from the patent office?

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2 A Yes, I retired in 2005, yes.

3 Q Okay. And so your career at the

4 patent office spanned 1972 to 2005; is

5 that right?

6 A That's correct, yes.

7 Q And your time personally

8 examining patents was from 1972 to 1996;

9 is that fair?

10 A That's correct, yes.

11 Q Okay. And during your time at

12 the patent office, were you ever

13 performing noninfringement analysis or

14 infringement analysis?

15 A No. That's not an issue that

16 is, is, that the patent office is there

17 for.

18 Q Okay. And after 2005 when you

19 retired from the USPTO, what did you do

20 next?

21 A Well, after I retired, I again

22 prepared my CV. I had some patent agents

23 and attorneys that knew I was retiring and

24 wanted to rely on me for reviewing design

25 patent applications that they were going

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2 to file with the patent office, and I was

3 contacted on occasions by law firms,

4 knowing that I was a retired design patent

5 examiner and was interested in doing

6 expert witness work.

7 So I would get contacted from

8 time to time by law firms that had design

9 patents that were either in litigation or

10 were the defendants in actions that were

11 being taken, based on design patents.

12 Q Okay. So let's break that down.

13 It sounds like at least a portion of the

14 time, you were doing consulting work for

15 law firms; is that fair?

16 A I wasn't, I mean, I wasn't

17 retained by them, but I was -- there were

18 some design patent agents that had

19 contacted me while I was at the patent

20 office about design patent practice, knew

21 I was retiring and were interested in

22 having me review design patent

23 applications that they were going to file

24 with the patent office to make sure that

25 they were in proper order.

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2 Q Okay. So looking at your CV,

3 there's a heading here, it says "Design

4 Patent Consulting." Do you see that?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Can you see me mouse?

7 A Sure.

8 Q Okay. That'll make this easier.

9 Great. So this first sentence under that

10 heading, which I've just attempted to

11 highlight, it says, "Since retiring from

12 the USPTO, I have on occasion counseled

13 patent attorneys and agents in their

14 filings of design patent applications at

15 the United States Patent and Trademark

16 Office." Do you see that?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Okay. So that was more informal

19 assistance?

20 A Yes. Yes. It was just merely

21 where I would review the applications that

22 they had prepared to make sure that they

23 were in all the proper formal matters.

24 And it involved reviewing the drawings,

25 making sure they were consistent, you

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2 know, for purposes of definiteness and

3 enablement.

4 Q Okay. You weren't officially

5 working for any of these law firms in

6 particular?

7 A No, no. No, I have never --

8 since I've retired, I've never actually

9 been retained as an employee of any law

10 firm.

11 Q Understood. And then if we keep

12 reading in your CV, it says, "I have also

13 prepared expert reports and testified in a

14 deposition and at trial as an expert

15 witness in the following matters." Is

16 that right?

17 A That's correct, yes.

18 Q Okay. And we'll go through

19 them. There's a list of six different

20 matters that follow. Do you see that?

21 A Yes. Sure.

22 Q Is this list up to date?

23 A Yes, it is.

24 Q So this includes, does this

25 include all your current engagements?

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2 A No, no. I normally only add a

3 case to my CV once the work is done,

4 because I don't know how many reports I'll

5 have to do or when I'll have to give a

6 deposition or testify at trial. So I

7 normally wait until after my work being

8 retained as an expert is finished.

9 Q Understood. Just to clarify,

10 are there any other matters in which

11 you've already submitted an expert report?

12 A No, no.

13 Q That's fine. Okay. So just if

14 we could quickly go through the -- the

15 first matter listed here says, "Complaint

16 of Ford Global Technologies, LLC." You

17 see that?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And is that an ITC matter?

20 A Yes, it was. Yeah.

21 Q Okay. What was your role in

22 that case?

23 A I was retained in that case

24 because the patents -- I was retained on

25 behalf of, representing, you know, the

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1 J. GANDY

2 attorneys who were representing Ford.

3 There was a series of design patents on

4 the Ford Mustang -- I believe it was the

5 2005 Ford Mustang -- that were being

6 challenged as being indefinite and

7 nonenabling. And I prepared reports on

8 that, the drawings that I considered to be

9 adequate and were not indefinite or

10 nonenabling.

11 Q Okay. Besides enablement and

12 definiteness, was there any other areas of

13 patent law that you testified in that

14 case?

15 A No, no.

16 Q Okay. And do you recall the

17 outcome of that case?

18 A Yes. The defendant wound up

19 settling, and Ford entered into a

20 licensing agreement with the defendants to

21 make after-market panels. Body panels.

22 Basically, crash panels, if a car gets in

23 an accident.

24 Q And did you end up testifying at

25 a hearing in that case?

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1 J. GANDY

2 A No, no.

3 Q Were you deposed in that case?

4 A No, I was not.

5 Q Okay. So after you prepared the

6 expert report, the case was resolved? Is

7 that fair?

8 A Yes, yes.

9 Q Okay. All right, moving on to

10 the next case, Magnadyne Corp. v.

11 Best Buy. Do you see that?

12 A Yes, yes.

13 Q And what was your role in that

14 case?

15 A That was, basically my role was

16 to prepare a report indicating that the

17 design patent was patentable under 102 and

18 103, and that the alleged infringing

19 device was infringing.

20 Q So is it fair to say you

21 prepared a report on validity and

22 infringement?

23 A Yes, it was validity. That's

24 what it was. Validity, yes.

25 Q Was it infringement as well?

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2 A Yeah, I believe it was. To the

3 best of my recollection, I also indicated

4 that the alleged infringing device was

5 infringing.

6 Q It says here you gave a

7 deposition on expert report.

8 A Yes, I did.

9 Q Okay. And did you testify at

10 trial in that case?

11 A No.

12 Q Did the case go to trial?

13 A No. It was settled.

14 Q Okay. All right. Moving to the

15 next one, Weber-Stephen Products v.

16 Sears Holdings Corp. Do you see that?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And it says here that you

19 prepared an expert report on invalidity as

20 well as nonenabling. Let me just sum it

21 up. It says you prepared a report on

22 invalidity, issue of enablement,

23 indefiniteness, and the written

24 description requirement. Is that fair?

25 A That's correct, yes.

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2 Q Okay. And then it says that you

3 separately prepared an expert report on

4 noninfringement to design patents?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q Is that right?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q Okay. Were those two separate

9 reports that you prepared in that case?

10 A Yes, they were separate reports,

11 yes.

12 Q So you were representing the --

13 A I was representing Sears, the

14 defendant. That's correct.

15 Q And what was the outcome in that

16 case?

17 A There were two design patents

18 involved. One was on an entire grill; the

19 other was on just the shroud, the cover

20 for the grill. The cover was -- it was

21 determined that the cover was not

22 infringing. It was a summary judgment.

23 The judge did not grant the summary

24 judgment to Sears. Sears decided not to

25 go forward to trial. They decided to just

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1 J. GANDY

2 settle.

3 Q Okay. So the case settled after

4 summary judgment?

5 A Yes.

6 Q So you were only deposed in the

7 case? You did not testify at trial?

8 A That's correct, yes.

9 Q Okay. Moving on to the next

10 case. It's Trinity Manufacturing,

11 Campbell Soup Company and Campbell Sales

12 Company v. Gamon Plus. Do you see that?

13 A Yes.

14 Q What type of case was that?

15 A That was actually on, I believe

16 it was five design patents directed to --

17 trying to think of what the correct term

18 would be. They were basically for the

19 holders for Campbell Soup Cans or just any

20 soup cans that would be in supermarkets.

21 And it involved a series of design patents

22 on certain portions of the retainer.

23 These were cases that were before the

24 patent office for inter-parties reviews

25 before the patent trial board.

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1 J. GANDY

2 Q And you were representing which

3 party?

4 A The defendant. I was

5 representing Campbell, the defendants.

6 Q When you say "the defendants,"

7 you mean, were they the parties bringing

8 the requests for review? Or --

9 A Yeah. They were the parties

10 brining the request for inter-parties

11 review.

12 Q So your declaration would be

13 supporting the invalidity of these

14 patents; is that fair?

15 A That's correct, yes.

16 Q Okay. And you were deposed in

17 those IPRs?

18 A That's correct, yes.

19 Q Okay. And do you recall the

20 outcome of the IPRs?

21 A I know four of the design

22 patents were invalidated. I think the one

23 is still, I think has still not been

24 settled.

25 Q Okay. Moving on to this case,

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2 Nite Glow Industries, I Did It, Inc., and

3 Marni Markell Hurwitz v. Central Garden &

4 Pet Company and Four Paws Pet Company. Do

5 you see that?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Same questions. What type of

8 issues were involved in there?

9 A This was a -- I was asked to

10 prepare a report on expedited examination

11 process in this case. The Nite Glow --

12 well, let me say, Marni Markell was an

13 individual. She holds multiple number of

14 utility patents. And she came to Nite

15 Glow with an idea for, well, she had a

16 utility patent for basically dispensing

17 tick and flea, you know, into dogs and

18 cats.

19 Nite Glow filed design patent

20 applications off of her utility patent

21 without her knowledge. And so she brought

22 suit against them. They were issued the

23 design patents without her knowledge.

24 So the suit was based on, she

25 had a written secrecy agreement with

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1 J. GANDY

2 Nite Glow that they obviously violated.

3 And so I was asked to prepare a

4 report on an expedited examination,

5 because if they had properly prepared

6 design applications and filed them as

7 expedited examinations, they would have

8 received their patent much earlier. And

9 basically, the case was for the purpose

10 of, these patents should have been

11 assigned to her.

12 Q Okay. And just to confirm, you

13 were representing which parties in this

14 case?

15 A Marni Markell.

16 Q And in this case, you gave both

17 deposition and trial testimony?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q Okay. And do you recall the

20 outcome of that case?

21 A The initial outcome is that she

22 was awarded the decision in the case. My

23 understanding is that there are still some

24 legal issues going on with that. I have

25 not, I have had some -- she has called me

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2 on several occasions because she is very

3 frustrated about the legal process that is

4 going on. So that's the only way I know

5 that there are still some legal issues

6 being involved in that case.

7 Q Okay. And the last one is the,

8 I believe it's LKQ Corporation and

9 Keystone Automotive v. GM Global

10 Technology Operations. Do you see that?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And that's another inter-parties

13 suit?

14 A Inter-parties, yes. It was

15 inter-parties, and post grant reviews.

16 Q So there, too, you were

17 representing which side?

18 A LKQ. LKQ.

19 Q Okay. So you were providing

20 declarations in support of invalidity? Is

21 that fair?

22 A That's correct, yes.

23 Q So just to sum up the, your

24 expert -- let me strike that. To sum up

25 your expert experience, you've had a total

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2 of six cases, and in one case, you

3 provided opinions with respect to

4 infringement, and in one case, you

5 provided opinions with respect to

6 noninfringement. Is that fair?

7 A That's correct, yes.

8 Q Got it. Okay.

9 A If you had to sum up for us,

10 what do you believe your area of expertise

11 is?

12 MR. CHENG: Objection. Vague and

13 ambiguous.

14 A What is my area of expertise?

15 Is that what you're asking me?

16 Q Yes, sir.

17 A I consider myself an expert on

18 design patents in all areas of the subject

19 matter.

20 Q During your time at the patent

21 office, did you ever review any patents

22 relating to hoverboards?

23 A Hoverboards didn't even exist

24 when I retired from the patent office.

25 Q That's true. Fair enough. Were

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2 there -- strike that. Did you review any

3 patents or patent applications related to

4 self-balancing vehicles?

5 A I can't recall offhand. I don't

6 know, the only -- I'm trying to think of

7 the name. I can't think of the name of

8 the self-balancing vehicle, the first one

9 that came out, but I was not examining at

10 that point. I think there was a design

11 patent application filed on that, but I

12 was not actually examining. I was a

13 supervisor at that point.

14 Q Yeah. And again, I don't know

15 what the earliest one was, but I think it

16 was something like a Segway.

17 A Segway. That's what I'm trying

18 to think of. Segway. Yeah, when the

19 Segways came out, I was, I believe there

20 was a design patent filed on that, but at

21 that time, again, I was a supervisor. I

22 would've been examining it if I had still

23 been the examiner in that art area.

24 Q Understood. Okay. Why don't we

25 -- yeah, we've done about an hour. Why

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2 don't we just take five minutes before we

3 dive into the rest of your report; okay?

4 A Okay, sure.

5 MR. CHENG: Can we take ten minutes?

6 MR. BERKOWITZ: Yeah, sure. No

7 problem.

8 MR. CHENG: Thanks.

9 THE REPORTER: We are off the record

10 at 10:59 a.m.

11 (Off the record.)

12 THE REPORTER: All right, counsel, we

13 are back on the record at 11:09 a.m.

14 BY MR. BERKOWITZ:

15 Q Okay. So I'm going to go ahead

16 and mark a second document that I will

17 share on the screen. Mr. Gandy, can you

18 see that I've shared a document?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Great. So I'm going to mark

21 this as Exhibit Number 2, and let me,

22 again, just scroll quickly through this

23 86-page document. This is the first page,

24 the table of contents, and here is your

25 signature at the end. Do you see that?

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2 (Exhibit 2 was marked for

3 identification.)

4 A Yes.

5 Q Okay. And do you recognize this

6 document?

7 A Yes, I do.

8 Q And what do you recognize it to

9 be?

10 A It's the last declaration that I

11 had prepared in rebuttal to Mr. Hatch's

12 last report.

13 Q Okay. When did you prepare this

14 declaration?

15 A It was late August, early

16 September.

17 Q And how does this document

18 differ from your prior declaration that we

19 marked as Exhibit 1?

20 A There was one additional alleged

21 infringing hoverboard that was identified

22 as, I believe, group E.

23 Q And did you address that group E

24 hoverboard?

25 A Yes, I did.

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2 Q And other than provided analysis

3 of the group E hoverboard, were there any

4 other changes made to the report?

5 A I think I may have added some

6 additional language with respect to claim

7 construction and maybe some additional

8 language as to my opinion of Mr. Hatch's

9 report.

10 Q So the same questions I asked

11 before. Did you draft this report

12 yourself?

13 A Yes, I did.

14 Q And those additions that you

15 just mentioned, did you make those changes

16 yourself?

17 A Yes, I did.

18 Q Did anyone ask you to make those

19 specific changes?

20 A No, they did not.

21 Q And if it's okay, I'm going to

22 refer to this report, Exhibit Number 2, as

23 your rebuttal report. Is that all right

24 with you?

25 A Yes, that's fine.

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2 Q Okay. So Exhibit 1 is your

3 initial report, Exhibit Number 2 is your

4 rebuttal report. Okay?

5 A Okay.

6 Q All right. So I want to, I

7 guess, start with the list of materials,

8 which is paragraph 4 of the report. Do

9 you see that?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And other than the materials

12 listed here, is there anything else that

13 you relied upon in preparing this report?

14 A No, not that I'm aware of or I

15 recall.

16 Q Okay. I asked the question

17 before if you were familiar with the

18 individual named Lance Rake, which I

19 understand you said that you were not

20 familiar with Mr. Rake.

21 A No. No.

22 Q And just to confirm -- and I

23 apologize if I asked before -- have you

24 reviewed any declarations or reports

25 prepared by Mr. Rake?

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2 A No, I have not.

3 Q Okay. All right. So let's jump

4 over to paragraph 19 of your report. So

5 I'm in Section III of the report. It's

6 titled "Understanding of the Applicable

7 Legal Principles." Do you see that?

8 A Yes, I do.

9 Q Is this a section of the report

10 that you prepared for this case?

11 A Yes, sure. Yeah.

12 Q Was this section drawn from

13 prior cases? And when I say "prior

14 cases," I mean not relating to the parties

15 here?

16 A I believe so. They're very

17 similar language, yes.

18 Q Okay. Now looking at paragraph

19 19, in the third sentence of the

20 paragraph, it says, "In rendering my

21 analysis, I have been informed by counsel

22 for multiple defendants the legal

23 standards for infringement of a design

24 patent." Do you see that?

25 A Yes.

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2 Q Prior to this engagement, were

3 you familiar with the standards for

4 infringement of design patent?

5 A Yes, I was.

6 Q Okay. And how were you familiar

7 with those standards?

8 A Well, I'm familiar with the case

9 law, Egyptian Goddess, that basically sets

10 out what the proper standard is for

11 determining infringement, based on the

12 ordinary observer.

13 Q And when was the

14 Egyptian Goddess case issued?

15 A I believe it was 2007, 2007 or

16 2008. I know it was right in that time

17 frame.

18 Q Okay. I believe it was 2008,

19 but I agree with you, it's around that

20 time period. At that time, you had

21 already retired from the patent office; is

22 that right?

23 A That's correct. Yeah.

24 Q Okay. So during your time at

25 the patent office, was there a -- what was

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2 the standard for design patent

3 infringement?

4 A Basically, it was the

5 Supreme Court decision, Gorham v. White.

6 I think it was 1876. It was still the

7 standard. Actually, I should also include

8 in there, I think it was the -- trying to

9 remember the specific case -- but

10 basically, you're dealing with points of

11 novelty. That's what the case, basically

12 the Egyptian Goddess case eliminated the

13 point of novelty test.

14 Q Can you tell us a little bit

15 about the point of novelty test?

16 MR. CHENG: Objection, vague and

17 ambiguous. But you may answer if you

18 understand the question.

19 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I remember

20 reading -- and again, I'm trying to

21 remember the specific parties involved in

22 it, but I remember reading the decision

23 that established the point of novelty test

24 when I was an examiner. I believe it was

25 somewhere in the early '80s when that

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2 decision came down.

3 Basically, it was saying that,

4 you know, in addition to the ordinary

5 observer test set out by the

6 Gorham v. White decision, that you had to

7 meet, in order to be considered to

8 infringe, you had to have shown all of the

9 points of novelty of the design patent in

10 litigation.

11 Q Was the points of novelty test

12 also being applied in the patentability

13 context?

14 A You mean as far as determining

15 patentability in the patent office?

16 Q Right.

17 A No, no.

18 Q As a patent examiner, what was

19 the test that you were applying to

20 determine the patentability?

21 A Well, it was either the

22 anticipation or obviousness from prior art

23 standpoint.

24 Q Okay. But it wasn't the

25 Egyptian Goddess test; is that fair?

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2 A No. The Egyptian Goddess test

3 is dealing with infringement. Which is

4 not an issue that the patent office deals

5 with.

6 Q Okay. Jumping to paragraph 20

7 of your rebuttal report, the first

8 sentence says, "Based on my conversations

9 with counsel for multiple defendants and

10 my review of administrative decisions and

11 articles discussing design patent law

12 principles, I have the following

13 understanding of design patent

14 infringement." Do you see that?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Okay. So when you say

17 "administrative decisions," what are you

18 referring to?

19 A Well, it would be decisions from

20 the courts on infringement.

21 Q Are those administrative

22 decisions?

23 A No, they're actually legal

24 decisions. Administrative decisions, I

25 would have to say that they're, they would

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2 be decisions that potentially came from

3 the trial board at the patent office.

4 Q Are there any particular

5 decisions that you're relying upon here

6 for these opinions?

7 A No, no.

8 Q Okay. And the same question,

9 you're referring in this first sentence of

10 paragraph 20 to "articles." Is there any

11 particular articles that you're relying

12 upon in connection with these opinions?

13 A Well, I mean, it says "articles

14 discussing design patent law principles."

15 I mean, that would basically be the

16 Manual of Patent Examining Procedure and

17 the statutes.

18 Q Okay. Is there any particular

19 portions of the Manual of Patent Examining

20 Procedure that are relevant to the

21 infringement analysis that you provided

22 here?

23 A Not with respect to

24 infringement, no.

25 Q Okay. So moving on to the

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2 second sentence of paragraph 20 [sic], it

3 says, "First, it is my understanding that

4 the claim in a design patent application

5 is directed to the entire design and not

6 individual parts or elements thereof." Do

7 you see that?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Do you believe that that is a

10 correct summary of the law?

11 A Yes, oh, absolutely. That's

12 what it is for determining patentability.

13 Q Okay. And if we continue

14 reading, it says, "In addition, it is my

15 understanding that the proper inquiry in

16 determining if a patented design has been

17 infringed is whether the accused design

18 appropriates the claim design as a whole."

19 Do you see that?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Is that sentence similar to the

22 one we just read?

23 A I think it's similar, yes.

24 Q And in general, what does that

25 sentence telling us?

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2 A It's telling us that

3 infringement is based on the appearance of

4 the design as a whole.

5 Q Okay. And if we keep reading,

6 it says, "Further, it is my understanding

7 that design patent infringement is

8 determined by first construing the claim

9 to the design and then comparing it to the

10 design of the accused device." Do you see

11 that?

12 A That's correct, yes.

13 Q Okay. So how do we construe a

14 design patent claim?

15 A Basically, everything that's

16 shown in solid lines is considered to be

17 part of the claim design. Anything that

18 would be in broken lines is considered to

19 be unclaimed or environment.

20 Q Okay. And if we keep reading,

21 it says, "It's also my understanding that

22 in construing the claim, a design is

23 better represented by an illustration

24 rather than a verbal description, since

25 any description would not likely be

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1 J. GANDY

2 intelligible without the illustration."

3 Do you see that?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And what are you trying to say

6 there?

7 A What I'm trying to say is that,

8 you -- a design claim protects the overall

9 shape and appearance of an article of

10 manufacture. And it would be almost

11 impossible to describe by words the

12 specific shape and appearance of a claim

13 design without actually seeing a picture

14 of it.

15 If I had a word description --

16 let's put it this way. If I had a word

17 description of a claim design, I'd have to

18 be able to draw that and look exactly what

19 the drawings show. That is very, very

20 unlikely.

21 Q Do you believe it's helpful to

22 provide a verbal description of a claim

23 design?

24 A I don't think so. My opinion is

25 no.

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2 Q Do you know if defendants are

3 offering a verbal description of the claim

4 designs in this case?

5 MR. CHENG: Objection. Are you --

6 well, first if it's privileged information

7 counsel is looking for privileged

8 information with communication with

9 clients, then I instruct the witness, the

10 deponent not to answer that. To the

11 extent that the question is vague and

12 ambiguous, maybe counsel can rephrase it.

13 MR. BERKOWITZ: Sure.

14 BY MR. BERKOWITZ:

15 Q Just to clarify, I'm certainly

16 not looking for any privileged

17 communications that you had with your

18 attorneys. I'm just asking the question,

19 do you know whether the defendants have

20 offered a verbal description of the claim

21 designs in connection with the case?

22 A Not that I recall.

23 Q Okay. And in your expert

24 report, do you provide any verbal

25 descriptions of the claim designs?

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2 A No. I guess the only thing I

3 would say is that a verbal description

4 would be just, just given a description of

5 what the different views that, you know,

6 comparing the alleged infringing devices

7 to the claim design and to the closest

8 prior are. I mean, I wouldn't consider

9 anything I've said to be a written

10 description. It's merely just looking at

11 the pictures.

12 Q Okay. I guess my question is

13 how do you draw the line? What would you

14 consider a verbal description of a claim

15 design?

16 MR. CHENG: Objection. Form.

17 A Again, I would have to say, it

18 would have to be a description that would

19 be so specific to define particular shape

20 and appearance of a claim design that I

21 could read that description and actually

22 draw the claim design as shown in the

23 drawings. And again, it's my opinion that

24 that's virtually impossible.

25 Q Okay. And just to clarify, you

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2 have not tried to construe the claims

3 here, other than based on the drawings; is

4 that fair?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q Okay. You mentioned the

7 ordinary observer test earlier. Is that

8 right?

9 A Yes.

10 Q What's the role of prior art, if

11 any, in the ordinary observer test?

12 A Well, it's my understanding,

13 based on the Egyptian Goddess decision,

14 that if the claim design and the alleged

15 infringing design are not so similar, so

16 dissimilar, that it would be necessary to

17 look at the closest prior art in assisting

18 in making a determination as to whether a

19 less infringing design actually infringes

20 the claim design.

21 Q How do you go about determining

22 what's the closest prior art?

23 A Again, that's a visual

24 determination. And I would be looking at,

25 you know, earlier hoverboards.

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2 Q Anything else?

3 A That would be, I think, you

4 know, if whatever potential earlier prior

5 art hoverboards would be in existing at

6 the time, that would be what I would

7 consider to be the closest prior art.

8 Q Is making that determination

9 just based on your experience?

10 A Yes, yes.

11 Q And in performing the ordinary

12 observer analysis, are there any

13 scientific principles that you rely upon?

14 A No, no.

15 Q Are you familiar with the term

16 "gestalt"?

17 A Gestalt?

18 Q Yes, sir. I can spell that for

19 you.

20 A No, that's fine. I'm not

21 familiar with that term.

22 Q Just for my own edification,

23 it's spelled G-E-S-T-A-L-T. Are you

24 familiar with that term?

25 A No.

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1 J. GANDY

2 Q Okay. Is that -- and just to

3 clarify, is that something that you ever

4 came across in your time as a patent

5 examiner?

6 A Not that I'm aware of.

7 Q Okay. Did you have any

8 experience with anyone applying that

9 principle in design patent analysis?

10 A What principle is that?

11 Q The Gestalt principle.

12 A I don't know what that is.

13 Q Okay. I'm just going to bring

14 up another exhibit for us for a moment.

15 Okay. Can you see that I've brought up

16 another document?

17 A Okay.

18 Q I'm going to mark as Exhibit 3 a

19 document that is titled

20 "Expert Declaration of Lance Rake," and I

21 will note that it's a document consisting

22 of 113 pages, including an Exhibit 1.

23 Again, Mr. Gandy, can you see

24 the document?

25 //

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1 J. GANDY

2 (Exhibit 3 was marked for

3 identification.)

4 A Yes, I can.

5 Q Okay. Is this a document that

6 you've seen before?

7 A No, I have not.

8 Q Okay. And I'll just represent

9 to you that this is a document that the

10 defendants have served in this case. And

11 I want to go ahead and ask you to scroll

12 to paragraph 10 of this document.

13 MR. CHENG: I will raise my

14 objection, since neither Mr. Gandy or the

15 counsel was given a copy of this document,

16 and we have had no sufficient time to look

17 through the documents, are you testifying

18 this is one report that was provided by

19 defendant?

20 MR. BERKOWITZ: Yes. I will

21 represent this is a report that was served

22 on us by your firm on behalf of the

23 defendants.

24 MR. CHENG: Can you show us a date so

25 at least we know which report you're

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2 putting here?

3 MR. BERKOWITZ: Absolutely. This is

4 a document, you can see the signature is

5 dated September 12, 2022.

6 MR. CHENG: Okay. And I just want to

7 caution you that give us sufficient time

8 to look through the portion of the report

9 if you want to read any specific part of

10 the report.

11 MR. BERKOWITZ: Sure.

12 MR. CHENG: Thanks.

13 BY MR. BERKOWITZ:

14 Q Sure. Let's start at paragraph

15 6 of this report. And I'll give you a

16 moment to read through, and then I'll just

17 ask you a question or two about it. Just

18 let me know when you're done.

19 A Okay, I've gone through six

20 through eight.

21 Q Okay. You might as well just

22 finish reading through nine and ten, if

23 that's all right with you.

24 A Uh-huh, sure.

25 Q Thanks.

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2 A Okay.

3 Q There's just one last paragraph

4 in this section, paragraph 11, if you

5 don't mind. Just take a look at that.

6 A Okay.

7 Q Okay. Having read paragraphs 6

8 through 11 of Exhibit Number 3, does this

9 give you an understanding of the Gestalt

10 principles we're referring to?

11 A Yeah. I mean I can generally

12 understand what they're saying, yeah.

13 Q Okay. And is the Gestalt

14 principles something that you would use in

15 patent office practice?

16 MR. CHENG: Objection. Asked and

17 answered.

18 A I wouldn't necessarily say --

19 I'm not familiar with this Gestalt

20 principle, but I think a lot of what it

21 says is what we do at the patent office.

22 I mean, as far as me looking at the claim

23 design and comparing it to the prior art.

24 Obviously, it's a visual comparison.

25 Q Okay. So here in, let's say

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1 J. GANDY

2 first paragraph, paragraph 10, this

3 individual, Mr. Rake, says, "I

4 specifically selected Gestalt Perception

5 Theory as a scientific framework for

6 determining whether or not the design of

7 the accused products is equivalent to that

8 of the asserted patents." Do you see

9 that?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Is that scientific framework

12 something that you've used to train

13 examiners?

14 MR. CHENG: Objection, calls for a

15 legal conclusion. Well, it's not a legal

16 conclusion. Calls for speculation.

17 MR. BERKOWITZ: I'm just asking about

18 Mr. Gandy's experience.

19 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the

20 question again?

21 BY MR. BERKOWITZ:

22 Q Sure. Is the scientific

23 framework that's referred to here in these

24 paragraphs, is that something that you've

25 used to train examiners on design

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1 J. GANDY

2 analysis?

3 A Not any specific reference to

4 Gestalt perception, no.

5 Q Okay. I want to scroll down to

6 paragraph 27 of this report. If you could

7 just take a moment and read this

8 paragraph.

9 A Okay. Just paragraph 7?

10 Q Twenty-seven, yes.

11 A Twenty-seven, I'm sorry. Just

12 paragraph 27?

13 Q Yes, sir.

14 A Okay.

15 Q So the last sentence of this

16 paragraph says, "As explained below, it is

17 my opinion that the ordinary observer,

18 familiar with the prior art, would find

19 the accused products' overall appearance

20 to be substantially different with respect

21 to the design claims of the patents-in22 suite because the overall Gestalt of the

23 accused product differs in key areas from

24 the body of prior art and the claims of

25 the patents-in-suit." Do you see that?

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2 A Yes.

3 Q Do you have an understanding as

4 to what is being referenced here?

5 A Well, other than referencing

6 this term "Gestalt," I mean, that's

7 effectively what I would, I would, you

8 know, do. I mean, I've never applied a

9 particular principle to it. But, you

10 know, that's basically what I do as far as

11 examining the claim design and the alleged

12 infringing devices. It's what I would do

13 when I was an examiner comparing the claim

14 design to the prior art.

15 Q Okay. Would you focus on the

16 perimeter of a product, or would you focus

17 on the design as a whole?

18 A I would focus on the design as a

19 whole.

20 Q Okay. Let's go back to your

21 rebuttal report, Exhibit Number 2. And

22 let's talk about your comments here on

23 Mr. Hatch's report.

24 So starting, looking at

25 paragraph 22, it says, "In his expert

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1 J. GANDY

2 report, Mr. Hatch asserts, 'Based on my

3 experience as an industrial designer of

4 commercial products, it is my opinion that

5 an ordinary observer in this case is the

6 typical purchaser of hoverboards, i.e., a

7 consumer, user, or the parent of a user,

8 each having little or no experience

9 purchasing hoverboards.'" Do you see

10 that?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Okay. And if we continue

13 reading, it says, "However, based on my

14 conversations with counsel for multiple

15 defendants, this opinion by Mr. Hatch is

16 not consistent with the 'hypothetical

17 ordinary observer who is conversant in the

18 prior art standard' articulated by the

19 Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit."

20 Do you see that?

21 A Yes. What are you referencing

22 here when you say your "conversations with

23 counsel"?

24 MR. CHENG: Objection. Privileged

25 communication.

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1 J. GANDY

2 MR. BERKOWITZ: Well, I'll challenge

3 you on that, Robin. I mean, Mr. Gandy's

4 referencing conversations in this report

5 as a basis for his opinions. I'd like to

6 understand what his basis is for believing

7 that Mr. Hatch's opinion is not consistent

8 with the Court of Appeals of the Federal

9 Circuit.

10 MR. CHENG: Again, if you're asking

11 for privileged communication, then I

12 advise deponent not to answer that. But

13 to the extent that the deponent thinks

14 that he can't answer the question without

15 revealing any privileged communication,

16 Mr. Gandy can go ahead and answer the

17 question.

18 THE WITNESS: So could you repeat the

19 question again?

20 BY MR. BERKOWITZ:

21 Q Sure, sure. So what is the

22 basis for your understanding that

23 Mr. Hatch's opinion, as far as the

24 ordinary observer, is not consistent with

25 the standards set forth by the Court of

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1 J. GANDY

2 Appeals of the Federal Circuit?

3 A Well, I think based on, you

4 know, just some brief discussions that I

5 had with Mr. Cheng to make sure that we're

6 both on the same page as far as our

7 understanding as to what the ordinary

8 observer is -- I mean, having been

9 familiar with the Egyptian Goddess case

10 and having experience even as an examiner,

11 reviewing opinions from the Court of

12 Appeals for the Federal Circuit dealing

13 with infringement, I'm just familiar with

14 what the hypothetical ordinary observer

15 standard is supposed to be. And I think

16 Mr. Hatch is selling the ordinary observer

17 very short as far as what their knowledge

18 would be about the prior art.

19 Q Okay. So what do you believe

20 that the knowledge of the ordinary

21 observer would be?

22 A I think the ordinary observer

23 would be, based on the case law in

24 Egyptian Goddess, is someone who is

25 familiar with the prior art of the subject

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2 matter that they might be looking to

3 purchase.

4 Q So you believe the ordinary

5 observer is someone that's familiar with

6 the prior art?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Anything more than that?

9 MR. CHENG: Objection. Form.

10 A No, I think, I think it's

11 basically just the ordinary observer is,

12 the ordinary observer is a person who

13 would be looking to purchase a particular

14 product and would have some knowledge of

15 what the prior art, what's in the prior

16 art for that particular subject matter.

17 Q And this paragraph 22, you say,

18 "Therefore, in this instance, it remains

19 my opinion that an 'ordinary observer' is

20 a potential purchaser who is familiar with

21 hoverboards and their different designs."

22 Do you see that?

23 A Yes.

24 Q What do you consider a potential

25 purchaser?

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1 J. GANDY

2 A Well, I think it would be

3 someone who would be looking to possibly

4 buy a hoverboard. I think it would be the

5 same thing -- the potential purchaser

6 would be somebody who is interested in

7 buying a particular product. Could be an

8 automobile, could be a watch, could be a

9 piece of furniture. And I think it's

10 somebody who would have knowledge of

11 what's in the prior art.

12 Q So in this sentence that we're

13 looking at, you say, "a potential

14 purchaser who is familiar with hoverboards

15 and their different designs." So by

16 "hoverboards and their different designs,"

17 are you referring to the prior art?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Okay. So let's keep scrolling

20 down to see paragraph 23. If you don't

21 mind, if you could just take a moment to

22 read paragraph 23, it might be quicker

23 than me reading sentence by sentence. I'm

24 happy to scroll whenever you're ready. I

25 can also make it bigger, if you'd like.

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2 A No, that's fine. Okay.

3 Q You've read all the way through?

4 A Yes. Well, okay, hang on a

5 second. Let me just finish.

6 Q Please.

7 A Okay.

8 Q Okay. So you've now read

9 through paragraph 23 of your rebuttal

10 report. Is that right?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Okay. And is it fair to say

13 that you're critiquing Mr. Hatch's

14 opinions?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Okay. And you're saying that

17 Mr. Hatch's report does not adequately

18 describe the claim designs and the accused

19 products? Is that fair?

20 A That's correct.

21 Q Okay. And is it fair to say

22 that you believe that Mr. Hatch should go

23 a step further and describe the designs in

24 greater detail?

25 A Yeah. I think he should have

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1 J. GANDY

2 gone ahead and described something more

3 than just the, just the generic features

4 of the hoverboard. Because that's all he

5 did. He didn't describe specific

6 differences in the appearance of a number

7 of the features that comprise the design

8 as a whole.

9 Q So in essence, are you asking

10 him to provide a verbal description of the

11 claim design?

12 A No, no. I'm asking him just to

13 identify features that actually

14 distinguish the overall appearance of one

15 over the other.

16 Q Well, if you're asking for

17 specific shapes, isn't that asking for a

18 description of the design?

19 A When you say "specific shape,"

20 I'm just saying that he has -- he has

21 referenced the, I believe what I'm

22 referring to in there is, he's referenced

23 the wheel covers just as being, I think

24 something like circular radii. Where the

25 wheel covers have different configurations

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2 between these designs. I think they need

3 to be identified. That's what

4 distinguishes one over the other.

5 Q So you would suggest describing,

6 for example, the wheel covers in greater

7 detail?

8 A No. I'm saying that he should

9 look at the wheel covers and indicate what

10 the difference is in the shape of them.

11 Q And is it your opinion that

12 Mr. Hatch should do that for each element

13 of the claim design?

14 A I think when you're looking at a

15 claim design that's shown in full lines,

16 you have to look at all of the features

17 and details of the claim design.

18 Q And for the --

19 A That's what makes up the overall

20 appearance of it.

21 Q And for the elements that are

22 shown in dashed lines, do you also need to

23 describe those in greater detail?

24 A Not if they're not being

25 claimed.

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1 J. GANDY

2 Q What if it's in the prior art

3 that there are elements in dashed lines?

4 How do you treat those as part of the

5 analysis?

6 A The prior art can be relied on

7 for everything that it discloses. It does

8 not have to just be limited to what is

9 actually claimed as the design.

10 Q Let me ask you -- jump ahead

11 just for a second and ask you a question

12 about that statement. I'm going to go

13 ahead and advance to paragraph 31 of your

14 rebuttal report. So I'm in paragraph 31

15 of your rebuttal report at the top of page

16 13. Do you see that?

17 A Yeah. I mean, I can't see the

18 paragraph.

19 Q Yeah. I'm just going to ask you

20 a question about the pictures.

21 A Okay.

22 Q So on the top right, here, do

23 you see a picture of a hoverboard?

24 A Sure.

25 Q You understand that's from the

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1 J. GANDY

2 906 patent?

3 A Yes.

4 Q That's a prior art reference.

5 Is that fair?

6 A Right, right.

7 Q Okay. So what elements are

8 indicated in this, in the 906 patent?

9 A What -- you mean what elements

10 are actually shown in the drawing?

11 Q Yes, sir.

12 A Okay. I mean, you're showing

13 the body of the hoverboard, and you're

14 showing in broken lines wheel covers that

15 are, that extend over the ends of the

16 hoverboard, even though they're not being

17 claimed.

18 Q So as far as these wheel covers

19 -- is it fair if I call them fenders? Are

20 those features that are actually indicated

21 in the 906 patent?

22 A They're not being claimed, but

23 they're being disclosed.

24 Q Okay. As far as the wheels of

25 the 906 patent, are those also being

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1 J. GANDY

2 disclosed?

3 A Yeah, sure they're being

4 disclosed. Yeah.

5 Q Okay. And we can rely on them

6 for what we see here? Is that your

7 position?

8 A I think the wheels in that

9 instance are, you know, obviously are not

10 showing any thickness to them. So I mean,

11 he's just basically showing what would be

12 the shape of a wheel.

13 Q And what would that shape be?

14 A Circular.

15 Q As opposed to the many square

16 wheels that we come across. I'm not

17 trying to be sarcastic. But is there

18 anything else to, any other shapes of the

19 wheels that we can glean from the drawings

20 of the 906 patent?

21 A Of the wheels?

22 Q Yes, sir.

23 A No.

24 Q Okay. And as far as the, what I

25 called the fenders, I believe you called

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2 it something else, sorry --

3 A The wheel covers.

4 Q The wheel covers. Can you

5 describe what shape is shown for the wheel

6 covers?

7 A Yeah. The wheel covers are

8 basically semi-circular.

9 Q And beyond the wheel covers

10 being semi-circular, is there any other

11 information that we can draw as far as

12 their features?

13 A No.

14 Q Okay.

15 A No. I guess, one other thing I

16 would say is, based on the broken lines,

17 they actually extend over the actual

18 wheels themselves.

19 Q So they have a -- the wheel

20 covers would have a larger inside radius,

21 inside diameter, than the diameter of the

22 wheels? Is that fair?

23 A Yeah. They extend over the

24 wheels. They actually cover portions of

25 the wheels. About half of them.

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2 Q Let me just go back to where we

3 were. I'm just going to skip ahead a bit

4 to paragraph 26 of your report and just

5 give you a moment, sir, to refresh your

6 recollection. It's a long paragraph. If

7 you could just take a look through, and

8 I'll scroll. I just want to ask you about

9 a particular statement further in.

10 A If you want to keep scrolling

11 down so I can continue.

12 Q Sure, sure.

13 A Okay, keep scrolling down.

14 Okay.

15 Q Okay. I'm going to ask you a

16 question about -- I'm going to try to

17 highlight it, this statement over here.

18 Can you see where the highlight is?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Great. I'll just read that.

21 We're in, again, paragraph 26 of the

22 rebuttal report, and it says, "The fact of

23 the matter is, the generic description

24 used by Mr. Hatch in his declaration

25 describes most of the hoverboards on the

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2 commercial market based on my review of

3 various websites such as Walmart, Target,

4 Best Buy, and Amazon." Did I read that

5 correctly?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Okay. So when you reference

8 here a "generic description," do you

9 recall what that is?

10 A Yeah, sure. It's -- I mean,

11 he's describing basically the peripheral

12 shape as an hourglass, which is basically

13 what all the hoverboards on the commercial

14 market are of this style. He's describing

15 that you have flat foot plates, which

16 again, basically is describing every

17 hoverboard on the commercial market. He's

18 describing a circular -- I can't remember,

19 I have it right here in front of me -- it

20 says, "a relatively flat surface across

21 the top of the main body, arched covers

22 over the wheel area, large radial area on

23 the front and back of the underside, and

24 elongated light panels on the front

25 surface." Those are basically describing,

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2 other than maybe the last part, the

3 elongated light panels, because not every

4 hoverboard has light panels. But

5 virtually every other thing he's

6 describing there is describing virtually

7 the same shape of every hoverboard that's

8 on the commercial market in this style.

9 Q On the market as of what year?

10 A I don't have any particular, you

11 know, I don't have any particular

12 knowledge of what year. I'm just saying

13 when I've looked at hoverboards on these

14 different websites, they all generally

15 have that same, you know, body shape. And

16 this goes back to the 906 patent. That

17 was the first hoverboard, and basically

18 every other hoverboard has copied that

19 hourglass shape.

20 Q Right. When you say here you're

21 referring to "the commercial market based

22 on my review of various websites," when

23 did you review those websites?

24 A Over the course of time since

25 last year, since I started working on this

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2 case, just for my own knowledge, I looked

3 at different websites to see what, how

4 many hoverboards are out there and what

5 the different styles are.

6 Q Do you know what the priority

7 dates of the asserted patents are?

8 A Of the four design patents?

9 Q Yeah. The earliest of the

10 asserted patents.

11 A Oh. I don't have it right

12 offhand.

13 Q Do you know if that's 2014?

14 A Again, I'd have to look at the

15 patent to see. I don't recall right

16 offhand whether that's correct. I'll

17 assume that what you told me is correct.

18 Q Sure. I'll just do it to save

19 some time. I'll represent that the

20 earliest design patent claims a priority

21 in 2014; okay? Do you know what the

22 commercial market looked like, going back

23 to 2014?

24 A I don't know.

25 MR. BERKOWITZ: Why don't we just

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2 take a five-minute break?

3 MR. CHENG: Okay. That works for me.

4 THE REPORTER: We are off the record

5 at 11:57 a.m.

6 (Off the record.)

7 THE REPORTER: We are back on the

8 record at 12:04 p.m.

9 BY MR. BERKOWITZ:

10 Q Okay. So back after a short

11 break. I'm just going to share my screen

12 again. Mr. Gandy, can you see that I've

13 shared my screen?

14 A Yes, yes.

15 Q Okay. So we're looking -- I

16 have now flipped to paragraph 28 of your

17 rebuttal report. Do you see that?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And it's under Section VI,

20 entitled "The Ordinary Observer." Do you

21 see that?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Okay. So we spoke a bit before

24 about the ordinary observer. I just

25 wanted to ask you a few more questions

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2 about your opinions here. Why don't I

3 just give you a moment to read through the

4 paragraph.

5 A Okay.

6 Q Okay. So earlier, I think that

7 we agreed that the ordinary observer would

8 be someone that's familiar with the prior

9 art. Is that fair?

10 A Sure.

11 Q Okay. And here again, you say,

12 "It remains my opinion that an 'ordinary

13 observer' is a potential purchaser who is

14 familiar with hoverboards and their

15 different designs." Do you see that?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Do you have any opinion as to

18 how familiar that ordinary observer would

19 be with hoverboards and their different

20 designs?

21 A I mean, I can't say, you know,

22 specifically. I would just say that they

23 have, they have a knowledge of prior art

24 hoverboards in that they have features

25 that distinguish them over each other

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2 beyond just the hourglass peripheral shape

3 of them.

4 Q So you have an opinion as to

5 whether potential purchasers take into

6 account consumer reviews in making a

7 decision as to which hoverboard to

8 purchase?

9 MR. CHENG: Objection. Misstatement

10 of deponent's testimony.

11 MR. BERKOWITZ: I don't believe I've

12 asked him that question before. I'm

13 asking him whether he has an opinion or

14 not. But you can state your objection.

15 THE WITNESS: An opinion on whether a

16 purchaser would be looking at reviews?

17 MR. BERKOWITZ: Yes.

18 THE WITNESS: Product reviews?

19 MR. BERKOWITZ: Correct.

20 THE WITNESS: Sure. I think that's

21 reasonable.

22 BY MR. BERKOWITZ:

23 Q Okay. What about brands? Do

24 you think a consumer of hoverboards would

25 be looking at what brand is offering the

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2 hoverboard?

3 A I would assume they're probably

4 familiar with what brands might be out

5 there.

6 Q Do you have an opinion as to

7 whether the branding would impact the

8 consumer's choice as to which hoverboard

9 to select?

10 MR. CHENG: Objection. Calls for

11 speculation.

12 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the

13 question again?

14 MR. BERKOWITZ: Could the court

15 reporter read it back?

16 THE REPORTER: Sure. One moment.

17 (The reporter read the record as

18 requested.)

19 THE REPORTER: That was the

20 question.

21 THE WITNESS: It's possible.

22 BY MR. BERKOWITZ:

23 Q Okay. All right. Looking

24 through this paragraph 28, here you say --

25 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, if you

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2 could just share your screen again.

3 MR. BERKOWITZ: Oh, I'm sorry.

4 BY MR. BERKOWITZ:

5 Q Okay. So I've highlighted a

6 sentence on paragraph 28. Can you see

7 that?

8 A Yes, yes.

9 Q Okay. And I'm summarizing, it's

10 your opinion that potential purchasers

11 would understand that a hoverboard has an

12 hourglass shape. Is that fair?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And from there, a consumer would

15 look to other features in order to

16 determine whether or not they are

17 interested in that item. Is that fair?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q Okay. And here you identify

20 some of those features. Is that fair?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Okay. And that includes "the

23 specific shape and appearance of the foot

24 pads on top of the surface." Is that

25 right?

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2 A Yes.

3 Q And just to clarify. Actually,

4 let me clarify, it says "the specific

5 shape and appearance of the foot pads on

6 the top surface of the hoverboard." Okay?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And by "top surface," what are

9 you referring to?

10 A I'm referring to basically the

11 two opposing foot pads or the foot

12 surfaces where a person would stand on the

13 hoverboard.

14 Q Okay. And you also mention that

15 a potential purchaser would look at

16 "whether the front and rear surfaces have

17 LED lights or not." Do you see that?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And just to clarify, when you

20 say "front and rear surfaces," you're

21 referring to the surfaces that are

22 perpendicular to the top surface?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Okay. And with respect to those

25 LED lights, you say that a consumer,

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2 potential purchaser would also consider

3 "the shape and appearance of the lights."

4 Is that fair?

5 A Yes, yes.

6 Q Okay. And then you say, "as

7 well as other potential features that

8 stand out to them." Do you see that?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Can you think of any of these

11 other potential features that a hoverboard

12 purchaser would consider?

13 A Could be, could be, you know,

14 whether there were some distinguishing

15 features to the wheel covers, any

16 particular shape that they would feel

17 would distinguish them or really stand out

18 to them. Could be that in the narrow

19 portion on the top surface in the center

20 of the hoverboard as to what the contour

21 of that is, what particular appearance it

22 might have. Some of them have lights in

23 the center area.

24 Q What about the wheels? Is that

25 a feature that a potential purchaser of a

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2 hoverboard would consider?

3 A Sure. I think they could

4 potentially look at the wheels. I mean,

5 in this instance, they're not being

6 claimed in the four design patents, so I

7 didn't even reference anything about the

8 wheels.

9 Q All right. Let's move on to

10 paragraph 29. So if you could just take a

11 moment and just skim through that. I just

12 have a few questions about it.

13 A Can you scroll down there a

14 little bit?

15 Q Sure.

16 A Okay.

17 Q All right. So a few lines down,

18 you say, "Although I have not been

19 provided actual samples of the accused

20 products, I consider the photographs that

21 were supplied to me by counsel for

22 multiple defendants to be of sufficient

23 quality to understand all of the features

24 and details and the overall shape and

25 appearance of the accused products so as

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1 J. GANDY

2 to render an opinion of noninfringement of

3 the asserted design patents." Did I read

4 that correctly?

5 A Yes, sure.

6 Q And we discussed earlier that

7 you did not receive actual samples; you

8 based your analysis on photographs. Is

9 that fair?

10 A That's correct.

11 Q Other than the photographs that

12 are shown in this report, in the rebuttal

13 report, were there any other photographs

14 that you were provided with respect to the

15 accused products?

16 A Yeah. I think I was provided,

17 you know, more than the photographs that I

18 put in the report. What I did is, I just

19 chose the ones that I felt were the

20 clearest and the most accurate in showing

21 the shape and appearance and details of

22 the accused products.

23 Q Okay. And the next sentence

24 says, "Also, when I inquired, counsel for

25 multiple defendants informed me that the

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1 J. GANDY

2 front and rear surfaces of the accused

3 products are the same." Do you see that?

4 A Yes.

5 Q So did you not receive

6 photographs of the front and rear of each

7 of the accused products?

8 A I believe that was the case. We

9 had, you know, a single view. It could

10 have been the front or the rear. But I

11 seem to recall that I didn't get two views

12 that would be definitively the front and

13 the rear, so I made an inquiry with

14 Mr. Cheng about that.

15 Q And do you know if that

16 representation of the front and the rear

17 surfaces of the accused products being the

18 same, do you know if that is still true?

19 A I have to assume that Mr. Cheng

20 told me that that's what they were, and I

21 have to assume that that's what they are.

22 Q If it turns out the front and

23 rear surfaces are different, does that

24 impact your analysis here?

25 A Probably not. That's kind of

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1 J. GANDY

2 speculation without actually seeing

3 whether they are different, whether it

4 would or not. But I would in all

5 likelihood say no, it probably wouldn't.

6 Q But you would have to see the

7 front and rear views to confirm that?

8 MR. CHENG: Objection. Asked and

9 answered. Go ahead, sorry.

10 THE WITNESS: If, in fact, they

11 weren't the same. Yeah, I would want to

12 see what the difference was between the

13 two.

14 BY MR. BERKOWITZ:

15 Q And I guess this question I

16 probably should have asked when I first

17 brought up this rebuttal report. Is there

18 anything in your report that you believe

19 is incorrect or you would like to change?

20 A No. No.

21 Q And as far as what we marked as

22 Exhibit 1, your opening report, was there

23 anything in there that, in going back, you

24 believe is incorrect or that you would

25 want to fix?

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2 A Not that I'm aware of, no.

3 Q Okay, thank you. Let's jump

4 ahead to page 41 of your report. Okay.

5 So this is Section H. So we're in Section

6 VII, Subsection H of your report. Do you

7 see that?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And this is a comparison of the

10 723 patent, one of the asserted patents,

11 against the Gyroor C product. Do you see

12 that?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Okay. So let's walk through

15 your analysis together. Maybe you can

16 explain how you went about coming to your

17 conclusions.

18 So at the top here where my

19 cursor is, you can see that there are

20 three photographs. Is that right?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And is it fair to say that

23 you're performing what's known as a three24 way analysis here?

25 A Yes.

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2 Q Okay. And the three-way

3 analysis involves comparisons between what

4 specifically?

5 A Well, it involves comparisons

6 between the claimed design, the alleged

7 infringing design, and the closest prior

8 art.

9 Q Okay. And as we talked about

10 earlier, your opinion is that the closest

11 prior art is the 906 patent; is that

12 right?

13 A That's correct, yes.

14 Q And it's your opinion that the

15 906 patent is the closest prior art for

16 each of the four asserted patents; right?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Was there any other prior art

19 that you considered as potentially being

20 close to these products?

21 A The only thing I referenced was

22 the corresponding utility patent to the

23 906 design patent.

24 Q And you performed this analysis

25 for each view of the asserted patents?

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1 J. GANDY

2 A Yes, I did, with the exception

3 of the fact that the four design patents

4 and the alleged infringing designs include

5 foot pads that have a surface pattern on

6 them, where in the 906 does not have that.

7 Q Okay. Well, earlier we were

8 talking about the top surface of the

9 hoverboard. Can you sort of point that

10 out here with reference to these three

11 pictures that we see above paragraph 69?

12 A You want me to point out the top

13 surface?

14 Q Yes, what would you consider the

15 top surface?

16 A Well, I consider the top surface

17 this area between what I'm showing on

18 my -- can you see my cursor, where I'm

19 going?

20 Q I can't. Maybe you could tell

21 me where to move the cursor with reference

22 to each of the photographs?

23 A Okay, well if you want to take

24 your cursor over just inside the wheel

25 cover of the 723 on the left side, bring

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1 J. GANDY

2 it in just slightly. Okay, I would

3 consider that the top surface extending

4 all the way across to the other wheel

5 cover. And the same thing with the Gyroor

6 C and the same thing with the 906.

7 Q So all the area inboard of the

8 wheel covers. Is that fair?

9 A Yes, yes.

10 Q Okay. And I believe you

11 referred to this portion on the top

12 surface as the foot pad? Is that fair?

13 A Yes. Yes.

14 Q So that would be -- in practice,

15 that would be the rubber foot pad. Is

16 that fair?

17 A That's correct, yes.

18 Q Okay. And we see that on the

19 723 pad and on the Gyroor C. Is that

20 fair?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q We do not see a foot pad on the

23 906 patent.

24 A That's correct. That's correct.

25 Q And I think we're all in

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2 agreement that the three of these products

3 shown here have an hourglass shape. Is

4 that fair?

5 A Yes

6 Q Okay. And as far as the wheel

7 covers on the 906 patent, earlier you said

8 that they enclose the wheel. Is that

9 fair?

10 A That's correct, yeah.

11 Q Okay. When you're performing

12 this analysis, are there any other

13 prominent features of the 723 that you're

14 considering?

15 A You mean on the top surface?

16 Q Right. Right now, we're looking

17 at the top surface.

18 A Right. Well, again, I would say

19 the foot pads and, well, even though you

20 can't really see it on the top surface,

21 the top surface of the 723, the center

22 portion, is convexly curved, whereas in

23 the Gyroor C, it's actually recessed down.

24 Q Is any one surface more

25 important in your analysis than others?

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1 J. GANDY

2 A Well, I mean, I would certainly

3 -- I think the foot pads probably have

4 more impact on the overall visual

5 appearance on these hoverboards than some

6 of the other features. Particularly when

7 you consider a person is going to buy

8 them, that's where they're going to stand.

9 So I think they're really going to be able

10 to distinguish one foot pad over another.

11 If there is a really different pattern on

12 them, that's going to jump out at them.

13 Q And would the ordinary observer

14 notice or be able to distinguish a product

15 that does not have foot pads at all?

16 A Oh, yeah. I certainly think

17 they would be able to distinguish it,

18 yeah.

19 Q Okay. Here in paragraph 69, you

20 refer to a "concavely curved recessed

21 center portion."

22 A Uh-huh.

23 Q I just want to confirm that

24 we're all on the same page as to what

25 that's referring to. You're referring to,

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1 J. GANDY

2 I guess, this mirror or equivalent

3 portions that are sort of cut away from

4 the top surface. Is that fair?

5 A Right, right.

6 Q Okay.

7 MR. CHENG: Objection. That was

8 taken out of context of the report.

9 BY MR. BERKOWITZ:

10 Q Okay. Mr. Gandy, just to

11 clarify, you're referring to a "concavely

12 curved, recessed center portion." I just

13 want to make sure for the record that we

14 are all on the same page as to what that

15 means. Can you point that out for us?

16 A Yeah. If you move your cursor

17 just slightly up there where I think you

18 were showing, that's what I consider to be

19 the concavely curved, recessed center

20 portion.

21 Q Right. And since we have to

22 reduce this description to words for the

23 purposes of this transcript, how can we

24 identify this center portion?

25 A How, I'm sorry. How what?

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1 J. GANDY

2 Q How can we describe this center

3 portion for the purposes of getting it

4 down on the transcript?

5 A I think basically what I said.

6 It's a concavely curved, recessed center

7 portion.

8 Q And is it just the top surface

9 that has this concavely curved center

10 portion?

11 A Well, when you're looking at it

12 from the top view, that's what it is.

13 Obviously, when you look at it from the

14 front or the rear, it's not necessarily

15 going to look concavely curved. It's

16 going to be recessed in.

17 Q Okay. Is it fair to refer to

18 this as sort of the "neck" of the

19 hourglass?

20 A Yeah, yeah. That's fair.

21 Q Okay. Let's do that. Okay.

22 A Uh-huh. Sure.

23 Q All right. Let's look at some

24 other views. I've moved over to page 42

25 of your report. And at the top of the

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2 page, you can see that there's four

3 images. Is that fair?

4 A Sure.

5 Q Can you tell us in your own

6 words what's being shown here?

7 A Well, it's the front and rear

8 surfaces.

9 Q Okay. And you're showing the

10 front and rear surfaces from the 723

11 patent as well as a common front and rear

12 surface of the 906 and a front and rear,

13 what you call a front and rear view of the

14 C product. Is that fair?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q Okay. As far as the photograph

17 here of the C product, would you call that

18 a front view? If that is, indeed, the

19 front?

20 A I would call it a front view.

21 If you want to be more specific, what

22 you're showing in the 723, the front and

23 rear, that would be considered an

24 elevation. Whereas the photograph of the

25 Gyro C is not an elevation. But to be

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1 J. GANDY

2 fair, to understand, nothing we see in

3 life is an elevation. It's in

4 perspective.

5 Q Right. So I think you answered

6 my next question. What's shown as a

7 photograph of the Gyroor C is more a

8 perspective view. Is that fair?

9 A Yeah. I would say it's a front

10 perspective view.

11 Q Okay. And the front view and

12 the rear view of the 723 patent have

13 slight differences. Is that fair?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Okay. And is it still your

16 opinion that the 906 patent is -- I'm

17 sorry. That the Gyroor C product, from

18 this view, is closer to the 906 patent

19 than the 723 patent?

20 A No. I think you've got it the

21 wrong way around. What I'm saying is that

22 the 906 patent is closer in appearance to

23 the 723 than it is to the Gyroor C.

24 Q Why?

25 MR. CHENG: Objection. Form.

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2 A Mainly because of what happens

3 in the center area of the hoverboard. In

4 the 723, the center of the hoverboard has

5 a slight convex curvature. So does the

6 906. Whereas the Gyroor "C," the center

7 portion is recessed.

8 Q Are we able to tell from this

9 photograph of the Gyroor C that the center

10 portion is recessed?

11 A I think so.

12 Q Even though it's perspective

13 view? It's your opinion that you can't

14 tell that it's recessed?

15 A Sure, sure. I mean, you can

16 clearly see just inside of the foot pads,

17 that's a sloping surface that goes down.

18 You have those two, kind of arcuately

19 curved dark areas that I assume are

20 probably lights. And you can clearly see

21 that's recessed.

22 Q Okay. Now the Gyroor C product

23 has lights on the -- let's assume that

24 this is a front view of the Gyroor C. Let

25 me start over. Strike that. Let's assume

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2 that this is a front view of the Gyroor C.

3 There are light bars on each end of the

4 product?

5 A Yeah. The front and rear

6 surface?

7 Q Yes.

8 A Yeah, yeah.

9 Q Okay. And if we assume that

10 this is a front view, do we know if there

11 are lights on the rear view, on the rear

12 side of it?

13 A Based on what Mr. Cheng has

14 indicated to me, the front and rears are

15 the same. So I certainly have to assume

16 that that's what there are.

17 Q Okay. And the 906 patent does

18 not show any light bars; is that fair?

19 A That's correct.

20 Q Okay. Next, we're going to

21 paragraph 70, where you're showing some

22 different views of these references,

23 including the wheels and, I would say, two

24 perspective views. I mean, one

25 perspective view of each of the three

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2 references. Is that fair?

3 A Sure.

4 Q Okay. So it's your opinion that

5 the wheel covers of the Gyroor C are

6 unlike those of the 723 patent. Is that

7 fair?

8 A Yes, yes.

9 Q And why is that?

10 A Well, they don't extend over the

11 wheel. In the 723, you can clearly see

12 that the cover extends over a portion of

13 the wheel.

14 Q Right. But the wheel covers of

15 the Gyroor C do not cover a significant

16 portion of the wheel. Is that right?

17 A That's correct. That's correct.

18 And the wheel covers of the 723 certainly

19 appear to be more of a semi-circular

20 shape, whereas it appears the ends of the

21 Gyroor C wheel cover are kind of flattened

22 out. They're not as fairly a continuous

23 radius.

24 Q And as far as the wheel covers

25 of the 906 patent, beyond being able to

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2 say that they cover a significant portion

3 of the wheel and that they're round, is

4 there any other features that we can

5 identify?

6 A No.

7 Q Okay. Let's jump over to

8 paragraph 73 and discuss the bottom of the

9 products. So you can just take a moment

10 and read through paragraph 73. I'm on

11 page 44 of Exhibit Number 2.

12 A Okay.

13 Q All right. So in this paragraph

14 73, is it fair to say that you're

15 performing a three-way comparison between

16 the bottom of the 723 patent, the 906

17 patent, and the Gyroor C?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Okay. And what are some of the

20 prominent features of the bottom of the

21 723 patent?

22 A Basically, the bottom is pretty

23 much plain. It's pretty much a plain,

24 flat surface. There's not really any

25 features on the bottom surface.

Page 120

1 J. GANDY

2 Q And as far -- strike that. The

3 bottom surface shows, is it fair to say

4 that the bottom surface of the 723 patent

5 has two cover plates that are held on by

6 some sort of fasteners?

7 A That's what it looks like, yeah.

8 Q Okay. The bottom surface of the

9 906 patent does not show any fasteners.

10 Is that fair?

11 A That's correct.

12 Q And looking to the bottom view

13 of the Gyroor "C," does that show two

14 covers that are held on by fasteners?

15 A That's what it looks like, yeah.

16 Q Okay. And you do call out that

17 the Gyroor C has vent holes. Is that

18 fair?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And it's your opinion that an

21 ordinary observer would pay attention to

22 those vent holes?

23 A Well, as I indicated in the

24 statement above, all four of the design

25 patents claim the bottom surface. So for

Page 121

1 J. GANDY

2 the purpose of having to do an analysis of

3 the, comparison of the claim designs and

4 the alleged infringing devices, you've got

5 to look at the bottom surfaces.

6 Q And I believe earlier you

7 testified that an ordinary observer would

8 be most focused on the foot pads because

9 that's what they're looking down on when

10 they're standing on the product. Is that

11 fair?

12 A Yeah, I think that's fair.

13 Q Okay. Do you have an

14 understanding as to the purpose of the

15 vent holes in the Gyroor C?

16 A Well, I certainly would think

17 they would be for some type of

18 ventilation.

19 MR. BERKOWITZ: Why don't we just --

20 if you don't mind, let's just take a very

21 quick break. I think I'm done with the

22 questioning. I just want to take one last

23 look through my notes. Okay?

24 THE WITNESS: Okay.

25 MR. BERKOWITZ: Let's just take five

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Page 122

1 J. GANDY

2 minutes.

3 MR. CHENG: If anyone wants to have a

4 lunch break? Or, Mark, do you think

5 you'll get everything wrapped up before?

6 MR. BERKOWITZ: I think I'm done. I

7 just want to go through my notes one last

8 time.

9 MR. CHENG: Yeah, sure. Okay.

10 THE REPORTER: We are off the record

11 at 12:37 p.m.

12 (Off the record.)

13 THE REPORTER: We are back on the

14 record at 12:45 p.m.

15 BY MR. BERKOWITZ:

16 Q Okay. So, Mr. Gandy, I'm going

17 to share my screen again. Can you see

18 that I've shared my screen?

19 A Yes, yes.

20 Q Okay. So I'm currently in

21 paragraph 100 of your rebuttal report that

22 we've marked as Exhibit Number 2. It

23 spans pages 64 through 65. Do you see

24 that?

25 A Sure, yes.

Page 123

1 J. GANDY

2 Q Do you see there's a photograph

3 in approximately the middle of the page?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And it's entitled "Enlarged

6 Partial View Gyroor D. Do you see that?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And this is either, you know, a

9 front or rear view of the Gyroor D

10 product. Is that fair?

11 A Yes, yes.

12 Q Okay. And on the right side of

13 the photograph, there is a brand name. It

14 says "Gyroor." Do you see that?

15 A Yeah.

16 Q Did you take that name into

17 account in your analysis?

18 A I did. I did. You know, as a,

19 you know, it was part of the design of the

20 Gyroor product. So I did, you know, at

21 least point it out.

22 Q Did you provide any weight to it

23 in your analysis?

24 A Other than just to mention that

25 it is on, you know, the front surface, I

Page 124

1 J. GANDY

2 believe it's on both the front and rear

3 surface, that was basically it. Actually,

4 I guess I'm looking at this, it does say

5 the upper portion just includes the word

6 "Gyroor."

7 Q Does that word, in your opinion,

8 distinguish the Gyroor D from, in this

9 case, the asserted 195 patent?

10 A I don't think it's the main

11 reason why it would distinguish it.

12 Again, I just point it out as just another

13 feature that's on there.

14 I'm aware of the fact that this

15 is an issue before the Court of Appeals

16 for the Federal Circuit right now. So I

17 think that, whether it can be considered

18 for the purposes of showing

19 noninfringement I think is an issue that's

20 actually in front of the Federal Circuit

21 right now.

22 Q Okay. So I guess --

23 A That's the main reason why I

24 pointed it out, because I'm aware of that.

25 Q And do you believe it tends to

Page 125

1 J. GANDY

2 support a noninfringement position?

3 A I don't think it would be the

4 sole basis for it.

5 Q But it is something that you

6 relied upon here?

7 A Yeah. I wouldn't have pointed

8 it out if I didn't rely on it. Yeah.

9 MR. BERKOWITZ: Okay. Yeah. I don't

10 have any further questions for the

11 witness.

12 MR. CHENG: I just have one question,

13 so we can get it wrapped up very quickly.

14 EXAMINATION

15 BY MR. CHENG:

16 Q Mr. Gandy, I know that you

17 stated that you don't know Mr. Rake, and

18 you did not read his report. Do you have

19 any objections to Mr. Rake's using of the

20 Gestalt theory to support his view of the

21 noninfringement in this case?

22 MR. BERKOWITZ: Objection.

23 A Should I answer?

24 Q Sure, yes.

25 A No. I don't have any objection

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Page 126

1 J. GANDY

2 to it. It's just something I'm not aware

3 of.

4 MR. CHENG: I'm done with my

5 questions. Thank you.

6 MR. BERKOWITZ: Mr. Gandy, it was a

7 pleasure. Thank you so much for your

8 time.

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

10 MR. CHENG: Thank you, Mr. Gandy, for

11 attending the deposition, and thank you,

12 Ms. Reporter for helping us with this.

13 THE REPORTER: Thank you. We are off

14 the record at 12:48 p.m.

15

16 (Whereupon, at 12:48 p.m., the

17 proceeding was concluded.)

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 127

1

2

 A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T

3

4

5 I, JIM GANDY, certify

6 that I have read the transcript of my

7 testimony taken under oath on October 26,

8 2022, and that the transcript is a

9 true, complete and correct record of

10 what was asked, answered and said

11 during this deposition, and that the

12 answers on the record as given by me

13 are true and correct.

14

15 _______________________

16 JIM GANDY

17

18 Signed and subscribed to

19 before me, this day

20 of , 20 .

21 ________________________

22 Notary Public

23

24

25

Page 128

1 CERTIFICATE OF DEPOSITION OFFICER

2 I, ARKADY SANDOVAL, the officer before whom the

3 foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify that

4 any witness(es) in the foregoing proceedings, prior to

5 testifying, were duly sworn; that the proceedings were

6 recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by a

7 qualified transcriptionist; that said digital audio

8 recording of said proceedings are a true and accurate

9 record to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability;

10 that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by

11 any of the parties to the action in which this was taken;

12 and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any

13 counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor

14 financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this

15 action.

16

 <%25578,Signature%>

17 ARKADY SANDOVAL

18 Notary Public in and for the

19 State of New Jersey and

20 State of New York

21

22 [X] Review of the transcript was requested.

23

24

25

Page 129

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER

2 I, SUSAN J. SPAULDING, do hereby certify that

3 this transcript was prepared from the digital audio

4 recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said transcript

5 is a true and accurate record of the proceedings to the

6 best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am

7 neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the

8 parties to the action in which this was taken; and,

9 further, that I am not a relative or employee of any

10 counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor

11 financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this

12 action.

13

14

 <%28692,Signature%>

15 SUSAN J. SPAULDING

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

33 (Pages 126 - 129)

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Page 130

1 ERRATA SHEET

 VERITEXT/NEW YORK REPORTING, LLC

2

 CASE NAME: Hangzhou Chic v. The Partnerships And Unincorporated

3 DATE OF DEPOSITION: 10/26/2022

 WITNESSES’ NAME: Jim Gandy

4

5 PAGE LINE (S) CHANGE REASON

 ____|________|__________________________|________________________

6

 ____|________|__________________________|________________________

7

 ____|________|__________________________|________________________

8

 ____|________|__________________________|________________________

9

 ____|________|__________________________|________________________

10

 ____|________|__________________________|________________________

11

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12

 ____|________|__________________________|________________________

13

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14

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15

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16

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17

 ____|________|__________________________|________________________

18

 ____|________|__________________________|________________________

19

 ____|________|__________________________|________________________

20

21 ______________________________

 Jim Gandy

22 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME

 THIS ____ DAY OF ____________, 20__.

23

24

 _____________________ _______________________

25 (NOTARY PUBLIC) MY COMMISSION EXPIRES:

34 (Page 130)

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believing 80:6

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111:21 112:12

112:19,24 113:2

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 39 of 63 PageID #:17294
chat 17:21 18:5

18:9

cheng 2:12 3:4

5:11,12,13,13

10:22 11:20

12:13 13:3,9,11

14:21 15:5,9,12

15:14 21:8 25:7

53:12 55:5,8

61:16 68:5

69:16 73:13,24

74:6,12 75:16

76:14 79:24

80:10 81:5 82:9

95:3 97:9 98:10

104:14,19 105:8

112:7 115:25

117:13 122:3,9

125:12,15 126:4

126:10

chic 1:5 2:2 4:9

11:13 130:2

choice 98:8

chose 103:19

circle 22:7

circuit 38:4

79:19 80:9 81:2

81:12 124:16,20

circular 85:24

89:14 90:8,10

92:18 118:19

claim 34:16,17

57:6 65:4,18

66:8,14,17,22

67:8,12,17,22

68:3,20,25 69:7

69:14,20,22

70:14,20 75:22

78:11,13 84:18

85:11 86:13,15

86:17 120:25

121:3

claimed 86:25

87:9 88:17,22

102:6 107:6

claims 70:2

77:21,24 94:20

clarify 8:20 43:9

68:15 69:25

72:3 100:3,4,19

112:11

class 28:21,21

31:21 35:10

classes 26:8,8,9

26:9 31:12

clear 9:17

clearest 103:20

clearly 116:16

116:20 118:11

clients 68:9

close 107:20

closer 115:18,22

closest 69:7

70:17,22 71:7

107:7,10,15

code 36:7

colleagues 15:16

collectively

11:25

college 25:13,25

come 12:9 29:16

89:16

comes 31:23

coming 38:2

106:16

commendable

32:14

comments 78:22

commercial 79:4

92:2,13,17 93:8

93:21 94:22

commission

130:25

commissioner

38:19

common 114:11

communication

68:8 79:25

80:11,15

communications

68:17

company 48:11

48:12 50:4,4

comparing 66:9

69:6 75:23

78:13

comparison

75:24 106:9

119:15 121:3

comparisons

107:3,5

compensation

13:23 14:7

complaint 43:15

complete 10:5,9

10:13 127:9

comprise 85:7

concavely

111:20 112:11

112:19 113:6,9

113:15

concerning

14:18

concluded

126:17

conclusion 76:15

76:16

conclusions

106:17

configurations

85:25

confirm 51:12

58:22 105:7

111:23

conflict 27:21

connection

64:12 68:21

consider 53:17

69:8,14 71:7

82:24 101:2,12

102:2,20 108:14

108:16 109:3

111:7 112:18

considered 44:8

62:7 66:16,18

107:19 114:23

124:17

considering

110:14

consist 32:8

consistent 34:9

41:25 79:16

80:7,24

consisting 72:21

constitute 5:7

construction

57:7

construe 66:13

70:2

construing 66:8

66:22

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 40 of 63 PageID #:17295
consulting 23:23

40:14 41:4

consumer 79:7

97:6,24 99:14

100:25

consumer's 98:8

contacted 12:13

12:24 13:8,11

40:3,7,19

contacts 14:18

contentions

11:10

contents 55:24

context 20:17

62:13 112:8

continually

11:15

continue 31:11

65:13 79:12

91:11

continued 37:22

continuous

118:22

contour 101:20

conversant

79:17

conversations

63:8 79:14,22

80:4

convex 116:5

convexly 110:22

copied 93:18

copies 17:12,13

copy 73:15

copying 18:8

corp 45:10 46:16

corporation 52:8

correct 11:7

13:19,20,22

14:20,20 23:16

23:17 25:15,16

25:20 26:18,19

26:23 27:3,6

28:19 30:16,17

30:20,23 31:25

32:2 33:3,8,12

36:14,15,18,19

36:22 37:14

38:23 39:6,10

42:17 46:25

47:5,7,14 48:8

48:17 49:15,18

51:18 52:22

53:7 60:23

65:10 66:12

70:5 84:20

94:16,17 97:19

99:18 103:10

107:13 109:17

109:21,24,24

110:10 114:15

117:19 118:17

118:17 120:11

127:9,13

correctly 92:5

103:4

corresponding

107:22

counsel 5:9,14

6:8 9:3 14:11,19

21:17 25:3

55:12 59:21

63:9 68:7,12

73:15 79:14,23

102:21 103:24

128:10,13 129:7

129:10

counseled 41:12

course 9:21

25:22 26:6,15

93:24

courses 25:25

26:13,14

court 1:1 8:14

9:10,16 18:4

38:3 61:5 79:19

80:8,25 81:11

98:14 124:15

courts 63:20

cover 47:19,20

47:21 90:24

108:25 109:5

118:12,15,21

119:2 120:5

covers 85:23,25

86:6,9 88:14,18

90:3,4,6,7,9,20

92:21 101:15

109:8 110:7

118:5,14,18,24

120:14

crash 44:22

critiquing 84:13

current 42:25

currently 24:13

122:20

cursor 106:19

108:18,21,24

112:16

curvature 116:5

curved 110:22

111:20 112:12

112:19 113:6,9

113:15 116:19

cut 112:3

cv 1:10 19:2 23:9

23:16,18,19,24

24:5 31:20

36:12 39:22

41:2 42:12 43:3

d

d 3:1 123:6,9

124:8 127:2

d12 28:3,21,21

d6 27:15

d8 28:6

dark 116:19

dashed 86:22

87:3

date 1:17 20:13

25:2 42:22

73:24 130:3

dated 19:17 74:5

dates 94:7

day 127:19

130:22

dealing 38:21

61:10 63:3

81:12

deals 63:4

december 27:17

28:9,12

decided 47:24,25

decision 51:22

61:5,22 62:2,6

70:13 97:7

decisions 30:11

37:25 63:10,17

63:19,22,24,24

64:2,5

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 41 of 63 PageID #:17296
declaration 3:10

49:12 56:10,14

56:18 72:20

91:24

declarations

22:25 52:20

58:24

defendant 12:6

44:18 47:14

49:4 73:19

defendants 1:13

11:4,9,21,25

12:16,20 13:15

14:10,11,16

16:17 21:25

24:10 40:10

44:20 49:5,6

59:22 63:9 68:2

68:19 73:10,23

79:15 102:22

103:25

define 69:19

definiteness

34:11 42:2

44:12

definitively

104:12

degree 25:23

26:4,5

dependent 14:7

depending 13:24

17:15 35:5

deponent 5:14

68:10 80:12,13

deponent's

97:10

deposed 45:3

48:6 49:16

deposition 1:15

4:7 5:5 7:12,17

7:23 15:3 42:14

43:6 46:7 51:17

126:11 127:11

128:1 130:3

depositions 7:25

14:2

describe 67:11

84:18,23 85:5

86:23 90:5

113:2

described 85:2

describes 91:25

describing 86:5

92:11,14,16,18

92:25 93:6,6

description 3:7

46:24 66:24,25

67:15,17,22 68:3

68:20 69:3,4,10

69:14,18,21

85:10,18 91:23

92:8 112:22

descriptions

68:25

design 11:5

20:21 21:23

23:23 25:18,23

26:4,9,12,15

27:5,12,19 29:10

29:15 31:21

32:19,19,22 34:3

35:20,24 36:6,11

36:17,24 37:23

38:7,9,11 39:24

40:4,8,11,18,20

40:22 41:3,14

44:3 45:17 47:4

47:17 48:16,21

49:21 50:19,23

51:6 53:18

54:10,20 59:23

60:4 61:2 62:9

63:11,13 64:14

65:4,5,16,17,18

66:4,7,9,10,14

66:17,22 67:8,13

67:17,23 69:7,15

69:20,22 70:14

70:15,19,20 72:9

75:23 76:6,25

77:21 78:11,14

78:17,18 85:7,11

85:18 86:13,15

86:17 87:9 94:8

94:20 102:6

103:3 107:6,7,23

108:3 120:24

123:19

designer 79:3

designs 11:2

21:12,12 68:4,21

68:25 82:21

83:15,16 84:18

84:23 86:2

96:15,20 108:4

121:3

detail 84:24 86:7

86:23

details 86:17

102:24 103:21

determination

70:18,24 71:8

determinations

30:7

determine 30:6

34:15 37:12

38:4 62:20

99:16

determined

47:21 66:8

determining

60:11 62:14

65:12,16 70:21

76:6

device 45:19

46:4 66:10

devices 21:24

69:6 78:12

121:4

diameter 90:21

90:21

differ 56:18

difference 86:10

105:12

differences 85:6

115:13

different 11:21

31:17 38:22

42:19 69:5

77:20 82:21

83:15,16 85:25

93:14 94:3,5

96:15,19 104:23

105:3 111:11

117:22

differs 77:23

digital 128:7

129:3

directed 48:16

65:5

directly 13:9

14:15

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 42 of 63 PageID #:17297
disclosed 88:23

89:2,4

discloses 87:7

discuss 10:21

119:8

discussed 31:13

103:6

discussing 63:11

64:14

discussions 81:4

dispensing 50:16

dispute 11:9

dissimilar 70:16

distinguish

85:14 96:25

101:17 111:10

111:14,17 124:8

124:11

distinguishes

86:4

distinguishing

101:14

district 1:1,2

dive 55:3

division 1:3

document 18:18

18:24 19:3,10,12

19:17,24 23:4

38:13,14,16,17

55:16,18,23 56:6

56:17 72:16,19

72:21,24 73:5,9

73:12,15 74:4

documents 21:8

21:17,18 73:17

dogs 50:17

doing 7:3 9:14

23:22 40:5,14

download 17:22

draft 21:2 57:11

drafted 20:23

drafting 21:6

draw 26:11

67:18 69:13,22

90:11

drawing 88:10

drawings 34:7,8

41:24 44:8

67:19 69:23

70:3 89:19

drawn 59:12

drogin 2:5 5:18

drop 18:4

drops 7:6

duly 6:5 128:5

e

e 2:1,1 3:1,6

18:11 56:22,23

57:3 71:23

127:2,2,2

earlier 33:10

51:8 70:7,25

71:4 96:6 103:6

107:10 108:7

110:7 121:6

earliest 54:15

94:9,20

early 20:12

56:15 61:25

easier 41:8

eastern 1:3

edification 71:22

education 24:23

25:14 37:22

effectively 78:7

egyptian 60:9,14

61:12 62:25

63:2 70:13 81:9

81:24

eight 11:21

74:20

either 40:9 62:21

123:8

element 86:12

elements 33:18

37:16 65:6

86:21 87:3 88:7

88:9

elevated 36:17

elevation 114:24

114:25 115:3

eligible 31:9

eliminated 61:12

elongated 92:24

93:3

employed

128:10,13 129:7

129:10

employee 42:9

128:12 129:9

enablement

34:11 42:3

44:11 46:22

enclose 110:8

ends 18:25 88:15

118:20

engaged 12:11

engagement

60:2

engagements

42:25

engine 28:7

engineering 26:7

26:13

enlarged 123:5

enter 25:5

entered 29:8

44:19

entire 28:25

37:12 47:18

65:5

entirety 21:3

entitled 95:20

123:5

environment

66:19

equivalent 76:7

112:2

errata 130:1

es 128:4

esquire 2:4,12

2:19,20

essence 85:9

established

61:23

evidentiary 5:4

exactly 28:13

67:18

examination 3:2

6:9 32:24 50:10

51:4 125:14

examinations

51:7

examine 34:5

examined 6:7

examiner 27:5

27:21 29:11

30:10,14,21 31:3

31:25 32:5,5,7

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 43 of 63 PageID #:17298
32:18 33:15,19

33:23 35:15

36:3,13 37:17

38:7 40:5 54:23

61:24 62:18

72:5 78:13

81:10

examiners 29:15

31:7 32:9,10,24

32:25 33:11

34:2,19 37:3,11

37:20,23 38:10

38:11 76:13,25

examining 27:8

32:24 33:5,20

34:3 35:19,24

39:8 54:9,12,22

64:16,19 78:11

example 86:6

exception 108:2

exhibit 3:8,9,10

17:9 18:22,25

19:4 23:4,14,14

55:21 56:2,19

57:22 58:2,3

72:14,18,22 73:2

75:8 78:21

105:22 119:11

122:22

exhibits 3:11

17:21 18:5

exist 53:23

existing 71:5

expected 33:18

expedited 50:10

51:4,7

experience 24:25

52:25 71:9 72:8

76:18 79:3,8

81:10

expert 3:10

15:22 16:6,8

17:9 22:6,12,14

22:18 23:22

24:11 40:6

42:13,14 43:8,11

45:6 46:7,19

47:3 52:24,25

53:17 68:23

72:20 78:25

expertise 22:22

53:10,14

experts 16:10,18

expires 130:25

explain 106:16

explained 77:16

extend 88:15

90:17,23 118:10

extending 109:3

extends 118:12

extent 68:11

80:13

f

fact 91:22

105:10 108:3

124:14

fair 8:25 9:2

11:6,10 33:7

39:9 40:15 45:7

45:20 46:24

49:14 52:21

53:6,25 62:25

70:4 84:12,19,21

88:5,19 90:22

96:9 99:12,17,20

101:4 103:9

106:22 109:8,12

109:16,20 110:4

110:9 112:4

113:17,20 114:3

114:14 115:2,8

115:13 117:18

118:2,7 119:14

120:3,10,18

121:11,12

123:10

fairly 118:22

familiar 8:3,17

16:13 19:9,23

35:2 36:9 58:17

58:20 60:3,6,8

71:15,21,24

75:19 77:18

81:9,13,25 82:5

82:20 83:14

96:8,14,18 98:4

familiarity 12:22

familiarize

35:21

far 24:2 33:21

38:21 62:14

75:22 78:10

80:23 81:6,17

88:18,24 89:24

90:11 105:21

110:6 114:16

118:24 120:2

fasteners 120:6

120:9,14

feature 101:25

124:13

features 85:3,7

85:13 86:16

88:20 90:12

96:24 99:15,20

101:7,11,15

102:23 110:13

111:6 119:4,20

119:25

federal 36:7 38:3

79:19 80:8 81:2

81:12 124:16,20

feel 101:16

felt 15:7 17:14

103:19

fenders 88:19

89:25

file 40:2,23

filed 50:19 51:6

54:11,20

filings 41:14

financial 13:14

financially

128:14 129:11

find 77:18

fine 10:2 12:3,10

19:25 23:7,12

27:13 43:13

57:25 71:20

84:2

finish 74:22 84:5

finished 20:12

20:15 43:8

firm 13:6,6

42:10 73:22

firms 40:3,8,15

42:5

first 6:4 12:11

18:23 20:15

26:25 27:9,10

29:8 41:9 43:15

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 44 of 63 PageID #:17299
54:8 55:23 63:7

64:9 65:3 66:8

68:6 76:2 93:17

105:16

fiscal 31:15

32:11

five 7:15 48:16

55:2 95:2

121:25

fix 105:25

flat 92:15,20

119:24

flattened 118:21

flea 50:17

flipped 95:16

focus 78:15,16

78:18

focused 121:8

follow 34:2

35:16 36:4

42:20

following 26:20

42:15 63:12

follows 6:7

foot 92:15 99:23

100:5,11,11

108:5 109:12,15

109:22 110:19

111:3,10,15

116:16 121:8

ford 43:16 44:2

44:4,5,19

foregoing 128:3

128:4 129:4

form 69:16 82:9

115:25

formal 41:23

forms 6:20

formulate 21:14

forth 80:25

forward 47:25

found 34:16

four 20:21 21:23

49:21 50:4 94:8

102:6 107:16

108:3 114:2

120:24

frame 60:17

framework 76:5

76:11,23

front 17:11

21:20 92:19,23

92:24 100:16,20

104:2,6,10,12,16

104:22 105:7

113:14 114:7,10

114:11,12,13,18

114:19,20,22

115:9,11 116:24

117:2,5,10,14

123:9,25 124:2

124:20

frustrated 52:3

full 6:14 17:17

29:25 30:3,10,15

86:15

furnishings

27:11,15

furniture 27:12

27:16 83:9

further 66:6

84:23 91:9

125:10 128:12

129:9

g

g 71:23 127:2

gamon 48:12

gandy 1:16 2:11

3:8,9 4:1,7 5:1

5:22 6:1,3,11,15

7:1 8:1 9:1 10:1

11:1 12:1 13:1

14:1 15:1 16:1

17:1,10 18:1,17

19:1 20:1 21:1

22:1 23:1 24:1

25:1 26:1 27:1

28:1 29:1 30:1

31:1 32:1 33:1

34:1 35:1 36:1

37:1 38:1 39:1

40:1 41:1 42:1

43:1 44:1 45:1

46:1 47:1 48:1

49:1 50:1 51:1

52:1 53:1 54:1

55:1,17 56:1

57:1 58:1 59:1

60:1 61:1 62:1

63:1 64:1 65:1

66:1 67:1 68:1

69:1 70:1 71:1

72:1,23 73:1,14

74:1 75:1 76:1

77:1 78:1 79:1

80:1,16 81:1

82:1 83:1 84:1

85:1 86:1 87:1

88:1 89:1 90:1

91:1 92:1 93:1

94:1 95:1,12

96:1 97:1 98:1

99:1 100:1

101:1 102:1

103:1 104:1

105:1 106:1

107:1 108:1

109:1 110:1

111:1 112:1,10

113:1 114:1

115:1 116:1

117:1 118:1

119:1 120:1

121:1 122:1,16

123:1 124:1

125:1,16 126:1,6

126:10 127:5,16

130:3,21

gandy's 23:15

76:18 80:3

garden 50:3

general 65:24

generally 10:24

75:11 93:14

generic 85:3

91:23 92:8

gestalt 71:16,17

72:11 75:9,13,19

76:4 77:4,22

78:6 125:20

getting 113:3

give 28:22 35:3

43:5 74:7,15

75:9 91:5 96:3

given 69:4 73:15

127:12

giving 20:20

glacier 2:13 13:6

glacier.law 2:16

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 45 of 63 PageID #:17300
glean 89:19

global 1:7 2:3

4:10 11:14

43:16 52:9

glow 50:2,11,15

50:19 51:2

gm 52:9

go 6:16,18 8:16

9:24 12:6 15:6

17:20,21 18:14

18:21 23:8

33:14 38:18

42:18 43:14

46:12 47:25

55:15 70:21

73:11 78:20

80:16 84:22

87:12 91:2

105:9 122:7

goddess 60:9,14

61:12 62:25

63:2 70:13 81:9

81:24

goes 33:22 93:16

116:17

going 8:5,7,17

8:22 11:16,24

17:8,8,20 18:20

18:21 23:21

36:12 39:25

40:23 51:24

52:4 55:15,20

57:21 72:13,18

87:12,19 91:3,15

91:16 94:22

95:11 105:23

108:19 111:7,8,9

111:12 113:15

113:16 117:20

122:16

good 4:2 5:12,15

6:11,12 8:2

22:17 25:9

gorham 61:5

62:6

grade 29:17

graduated 26:17

graduation

26:20

grant 47:23

52:15

granted 30:15

great 8:14 41:9

55:20 91:20

greater 84:24

86:6,23

grill 47:18,20

ground 8:15

group 56:22,23

57:3

guess 7:19 10:20

24:22 33:14

35:14 36:23

58:7 69:2,12

90:15 105:15

112:2 124:4,22

guide 38:8,12

guidelines 33:25

35:15 36:3

gyro 114:25

gyroor 106:11

109:5,19 110:23

115:7,17,23

116:6,9,22,24

117:2 118:5,15

118:21 119:17

120:13,17

121:15 123:6,9

123:14,20 124:6

124:8

h

h 3:6 106:5,6

half 90:25

hand 5:23

handling 28:21

hang 84:4

hangzhou 1:5

2:2 4:9 11:13

130:2

happened 28:15

happens 7:8

116:2

happy 83:24

hardware 28:6

hatch 79:2,15

81:16 84:22

86:12 91:24

hatch's 16:2,4

19:14 20:4 22:6

56:11 57:8

78:23 80:7,23

84:13,17

head 9:9,10

heading 41:3,10

health 10:11

heard 12:19

hearing 5:20 7:5

44:25

held 120:5,14

help 22:8 31:18

helpful 67:21

helping 126:12

hereto 128:13

129:10

highlight 41:11

91:17,18

highlighted 99:5

hired 27:22

29:17

holders 48:19

holdings 46:16

holds 50:13

holes 120:17,22

121:15

hour 13:21

54:25

hourglass 92:12

93:19 97:2

99:12 110:3

113:19

hourly 13:18,24

hoverboard

10:25 21:12

56:21,24 57:3

83:4 85:4 87:23

88:13,16 92:17

93:4,7,17,18

97:7 98:2,8

99:11 100:6,13

101:11,20 102:2

108:9 116:3,4

hoverboards

11:6 17:5 22:16

53:22,23 70:25

71:5 79:6,9

82:21 83:14,16

91:25 92:13

93:13 94:4

96:14,19,24

97:24 111:5

[glean - hoverboards] Page 11

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 46 of 63 PageID #:17301
huh 74:24

111:22 113:22

hurwitz 50:3

hypothetical

79:16 81:14

i

i.e. 79:6

idea 50:15

identification

19:5 56:3 73:3

identified 1:12

4:12 56:21 86:3

identify 5:10

85:13 99:19

112:24 119:5

iii 59:5

illinois 1:2

illustration

66:23 67:2

images 114:3

impact 98:7

104:24 111:4

important

110:25

impossible 67:11

69:24

inboard 109:7

include 42:25

61:7 108:4

includes 33:20

33:21 42:24

99:22 124:5

including 72:22

117:23

incorrect 105:19

105:24

indefinite 44:6,9

indefiniteness

46:23

independently

32:18

indicate 86:9

indicated 31:19

31:20 46:3 88:8

88:20 117:14

120:23

indicating 38:21

45:16

individual 16:14

50:13 58:18

65:6 76:3

industrial 79:3

industries 50:2

informal 41:18

information

68:6,8 90:11

informed 59:21

103:25

infringe 62:8

infringed 65:17

infringement

39:14 45:22,25

53:4 59:23 60:4

60:11 61:3 63:3

63:14,20 64:21

64:24 66:3,7

81:13

infringes 70:19

infringing 11:5

21:11,24 45:18

45:19 46:4,5

47:22 56:21

69:6 70:15,19

78:12 107:7

108:4 121:4

initial 16:5 51:21

58:3

initially 21:7

29:8

initiated 37:8

inquired 103:24

inquiry 65:15

104:13

inside 90:20,21

108:24 116:16

inspected 16:25

instance 82:18

89:9 102:5

instruct 68:9

instructed 9:5

intelligent 1:5

2:2 4:9

intelligible 67:2

intended 5:2

inter 48:24

49:10 52:12,14

52:15

interest 13:14

interested 23:22

40:5,21 83:6

99:17 128:14

129:11

interfere 10:8,12

internal 38:14

interrupt 25:4

28:8

invalidated

49:22

invalidity 46:19

46:22 49:13

52:20

involve 24:19

involved 24:3,7

25:22 41:24

47:18 48:21

50:8 52:6 61:21

involves 107:3,5

iprs 49:17,20

iris 15:16

issue 39:15

46:22 63:4

124:15,19

issued 38:13

50:22 60:14

issues 10:11 12:9

31:16 38:5,22

50:8 51:24 52:5

itc 43:19

item 99:17

j

j 4:1 5:1 6:1 7:1

8:1 9:1 10:1

11:1 12:1 13:1

14:1 15:1 16:1

17:1 18:1 19:1

20:1 21:1 22:1

23:1 24:1 25:1

26:1 27:1 28:1

29:1 30:1 31:1

32:1 33:1 34:1

35:1 36:1 37:1

38:1 39:1 40:1

41:1 42:1 43:1

44:1 45:1 46:1

47:1 48:1 49:1

50:1 51:1 52:1

53:1 54:1 55:1

56:1 57:1 58:1

[huh - j] Page 12

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 47 of 63 PageID #:17302
59:1 60:1 61:1

62:1 63:1 64:1

65:1 66:1 67:1

68:1 69:1 70:1

71:1 72:1 73:1

74:1 75:1 76:1

77:1 78:1 79:1

80:1 81:1 82:1

83:1 84:1 85:1

86:1 87:1 88:1

89:1 90:1 91:1

92:1 93:1 94:1

95:1 96:1 97:1

98:1 99:1 100:1

101:1 102:1

103:1 104:1

105:1 106:1

107:1 108:1

109:1 110:1

111:1 112:1

113:1 114:1

115:1 116:1

117:1 118:1

119:1 120:1

121:1 122:1

123:1 124:1

125:1 126:1

129:2,15

james 6:15,21

january 27:18

28:12

jersey 4:17

128:19

jim 1:16 2:11 3:8

3:9 4:7 6:3,17

6:18,20 127:5,16

130:3,21

job 1:22 36:23

ju 15:16

judge 47:23

judgment 22:2

47:22,24 48:4

jump 18:7 59:3

87:10 106:3

111:12 119:7

jumping 63:6

june 27:13

junior 33:11

k

k 127:2

keep 42:11 66:5

66:20 83:19

91:10,13

key 77:23

keystone 52:9

kidding 17:7

kind 25:24 26:2

27:7 28:23

104:25 116:18

118:21

knew 18:2 39:23

40:20

know 7:6 8:10

8:16 16:16 35:3

35:3 42:2 43:4

43:25 49:21

50:17 52:4 54:6

54:14 60:16

62:4 68:2,19

69:5 70:25 71:4

72:12 73:25

74:18 78:8,10

81:4 89:9 93:11

93:15 94:6,13,21

94:24 96:21

101:13 103:17

104:9,15,18

117:10 123:8,18

123:19,20,25

125:16,17

knowing 23:21

40:4

knowledge 50:21

50:23 81:17,20

82:14 83:10

93:12 94:2

96:23 128:9

129:6

known 106:23

krinsky 2:5 5:17

l

l 71:23 127:2

lance 3:10 16:14

58:18 72:20

land 29:2,4

language 22:21

57:6,8 59:17

large 92:22

larger 90:20

late 56:15

law 2:13 13:5

22:23 40:3,8,15

42:5,9 44:13

60:9 63:11

64:14 65:10

81:23

laws 5:4

lawsuit 14:8

learn 35:7,9

led 100:17,25

left 108:25

legal 51:24 52:3

52:5 59:7,22

63:23 76:15,15

licensing 44:20

life 115:3

light 92:24 93:3

93:4 117:3,18

lights 100:17,25

101:3,22 116:20

116:23 117:11

likelihood 105:5

limited 87:8

line 69:13 130:5

lines 66:16,18

86:15,22 87:3

88:14 90:16

102:17

list 42:19,22

58:7

listed 21:19,21

43:15 58:12

litigation 40:9

62:10

little 22:8 25:21

26:3 33:13

61:14 79:8

102:14

lkq 52:8,18,18

llc 43:16 130:1

llp 2:5

location 1:19

long 23:19 91:6

longer 32:22

37:2

look 17:23 21:21

21:22 22:5

67:18 70:17

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 48 of 63 PageID #:17303
73:16 74:8 75:5

86:9,16 91:7

94:14 99:15

100:15 102:4

113:13,15,23

121:5,23

looked 15:25

21:22,23,25

93:13 94:2,22

looking 23:13

34:14 41:2

59:18 68:7,16

69:10 70:24

75:22 78:24

82:2,13 83:3,13

86:14 95:15

97:16,25 98:23

110:16 113:11

120:12 121:9

124:4

looks 120:7,15

lot 75:20

lunch 122:4

m

m 6:15 127:2

magnadyne

45:10

mail 18:11

main 92:21

124:10,23

making 41:25

70:18 71:8 97:6

manner 5:5

manual 35:19

64:16,19

manufacture

67:10

manufacturing

48:10

mark 2:4 5:16

6:25 17:9 18:22

55:16,20 72:18

122:4

marked 19:4

23:4,14 56:2,19

73:2 105:21

122:22

markell 50:3,12

51:15

market 44:21

92:2,14,17 93:8

93:9,21 94:22

marni 50:3,12

51:15

material 38:9

materials 15:23

38:16 58:7,11

matter 4:8 12:12

22:15 24:10

35:5 43:15,19

53:19 82:2,16

91:23

matters 41:23

42:15,20 43:10

mberkowitz 2:8

mean 18:9 24:13

28:16 31:3

34:24 35:18

40:16 49:7

59:14 62:14

64:13,15 69:8

75:11,22 78:6,8

80:3 81:8 87:17

88:9,12 89:10

92:10 96:21

102:4 110:15

111:2 116:15

117:24

means 5:6 8:11

112:15

meant 28:11

medications

10:7

meet 15:8 34:10

62:7

mention 100:14

123:24

mentioned 8:15

21:16 33:9

57:15 70:6

merely 41:20

69:10

met 15:12,14,15

middle 9:23

123:3

mind 6:13 75:5

83:21 121:20

minute 95:2

minutes 19:21

55:2,5 122:2

mirror 112:2

misstatement

97:9

moment 25:4

72:14 74:16

77:7 83:21 91:5

96:3 98:16

102:11 119:9

month 30:4

months 28:14

30:5

morning 4:2

5:12,15 6:11,12

motion 21:25

motorcycles

29:5

mouse 41:6

move 31:18

102:9 108:21

112:16

moved 113:24

moving 45:9

46:14 48:9

49:25 64:25

mpep 35:25

multiple 50:13

59:22 63:9

79:14 102:22

103:25

mustang 44:4,5

n

n 2:1 3:1 127:2,2

name 4:2 5:12

6:14,15,24 54:7

54:7 123:13,16

130:2,3

named 16:14

58:18

names 11:15

narrow 101:18

necessarily

75:18 113:14

necessary 70:16

neck 113:18

need 9:5,20

17:15 35:12,21

86:2,22

needed 38:5

neither 73:14

128:10 129:7

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 49 of 63 PageID #:17304
never 42:7,8

78:8

new 2:7,15 4:17

4:17 31:6 33:15

34:19 35:16

37:20 128:19,20

130:1

nice 9:17

nine 74:22

nite 50:2,11,14

50:19 51:2

nods 9:9

non 9:8

nonenabling

44:7,10 46:20

noninfringement

19:14 20:21

39:13 47:4 53:6

103:2 124:19

125:2,21

normally 6:16

29:18 35:8 43:2

43:7

north 1:20 4:14

northern 1:2

notary 1:21 4:15

127:22 128:18

130:25

note 22:24 72:21

notes 121:23

122:7

notice 111:14

novelty 61:11,13

61:15,23 62:9,11

number 11:5

50:13 55:21

57:22 58:3 75:8

78:21 85:6

119:11 122:22

ny 2:7,13,15

o

o 127:2

oath 8:8,10

127:7

oaths 4:16

object 9:4

objection 4:20

5:20 53:12

61:16 68:5

69:16 73:14

75:16 76:14

79:24 82:9 97:9

97:14 98:10

105:8 112:7

115:25 125:22

125:25

objections

125:19

observer 60:12

62:5 70:7,11

71:12 77:17

79:5,17 80:24

81:8,14,16,21,22

82:5,11,12,19

95:20,24 96:7,13

96:18 111:13

120:21 121:7

obtain 26:5

obvious 34:16

obviously 7:4

21:22 22:4 26:7

26:8 29:5 34:4

34:13 51:2

75:24 89:9

113:13

obviousness

62:22

occasion 41:12

occasions 40:3

52:2

october 1:17

4:13 127:7

offered 68:20

offering 68:3

97:25

offhand 54:5

94:12,16

office 23:20

26:22,25 28:14

29:9,15 33:5,21

37:8,11,21 38:15

38:18,25 39:4,12

39:16 40:2,20,24

41:16 48:24

53:21,24 60:21

60:25 62:15

63:4 64:3 75:15

75:21

officer 128:1,2

officially 42:4

oh 20:8 65:11

94:11 99:3

111:16

okay 6:16,19,24

7:10,16,19 8:2,5

8:20,22 9:8,14

9:20 10:2,15

11:3,8,12 12:4

13:2,8,12,17,23

14:6 16:8 17:17

17:20,25 18:15

18:17,20 19:9,25

20:16,23 21:2,16

22:3,7 23:13

24:4,9,22 25:6

27:4 28:20

31:11,23 32:3

33:9 35:6 36:12

36:20 38:11,24

39:3,11,18 40:12

41:2,8,18 42:4

42:18 43:13,21

44:11,16 45:5,9

46:9,14 47:2,8

48:3,9 49:16,19

49:25 51:12,19

52:7,19 53:8

54:24 55:3,4,15

56:5,13 57:21

58:2,4,5,16 59:3

59:18 60:6,18,24

62:24 63:6,16

64:8,18,25 65:13

66:5,13,20 68:23

69:12,25 70:6

72:2,7,13,15,17

73:5,8 74:6,19

74:21 75:2,6,7

75:13,25 77:5,9

77:14 78:15,20

79:12 81:19

83:19 84:2,4,7,8

84:12,16,21

87:21 88:7,12,24

89:5,24 90:14

91:13,14,15 92:7

94:21 95:3,10,15

95:23 96:5,6,11

97:23 98:23

99:5,9,19,22

100:6,14,24

[never - okay] Page 15

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 50 of 63 PageID #:17305
101:6 102:16

103:23 106:3,4

106:14 107:2,9

108:7,23 109:2

109:10,18 110:6

110:11 111:19

112:6,10 113:17

113:21,21 114:9

114:16 115:11

115:15 116:22

117:9,17,20

118:4 119:7,12

119:19 120:8,16

121:13,23,24

122:9,16,20

123:12 124:22

125:9

once 7:8 21:12

32:21 43:3

ones 103:19

opening 3:8

19:20 23:5,15

105:22

operations 52:10

opinion 20:20

21:14 57:8

67:24 69:23

77:17 79:4,15

80:7,23 82:19

86:11 96:12,17

97:4,13,15 98:6

99:10 103:2

107:10,14

115:16 116:13

118:4 120:20

124:7

opinions 53:3,5

64:6,12 80:5

81:11 84:14

96:2

opportunity

29:21

opposed 89:15

opposing 100:11

order 26:5 40:25

62:7 99:15

ordinary 60:12

62:4 70:7,11

71:11 77:17

79:5,17 80:24

81:7,14,16,20,22

82:4,11,12,19

95:20,24 96:7,12

96:18 111:13

120:21 121:7

outcome 14:7

44:17 47:15

49:20 51:20,21

128:14 129:11

outside 4:19

outstanding

32:15

overall 67:8

77:19,22 85:14

86:19 102:24

111:4

p

p 2:1,1

p.m. 95:8 122:11

122:14 126:14

126:16

pad 109:12,15

109:19,22

111:10

pads 99:24 100:5

100:11 108:5

110:19 111:3,15

116:16 121:8

page 3:2,7 18:23

18:24,24 19:2

55:23,23 81:6

87:15 106:4

111:24 112:14

113:24 114:2

119:11 123:3

130:5

pages 72:22

122:23

paid 13:17

pandemic 7:20

panels 44:21,21

44:22 92:24

93:3,4

papers 17:11

paragraph 58:8

59:4,18,20 63:6

64:10 65:2

73:12 74:14

75:3,4 76:2,2

77:6,8,9,12,16

78:25 82:17

83:20,22 84:9

87:13,14,18 91:4

91:6,21 95:16

96:4 98:24 99:6

102:10 108:11

111:19 117:21

119:8,10,13

122:21

paragraphs 75:7

76:24

parent 79:7

park 2:14

part 66:17 74:9

87:4 93:2

123:19

partial 29:24

123:6

participating

14:2

particular 22:15

24:9 35:9 36:9

38:17 42:6 64:4

64:11,18 69:19

78:9 82:13,16

83:7 91:9 93:10

93:11 101:16,21

particularly

111:6

parties 4:17,22

48:24 49:7,9,10

51:13 52:12,14

52:15 59:14

61:21 128:11,13

129:8,10

partnerships

1:10 4:11 130:2

parts 28:7 65:6

party 49:3

pasting 18:8

patent 23:20

26:21,25 27:5

29:9,10,14 30:21

31:24 32:5,6,17

32:22 33:5,15

34:3,20 35:19,24

36:13,17,24 37:8

37:23 38:7,10,25

39:4,12,16,22,25

[okay - patent] Page 16

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 51 of 63 PageID #:17306
40:2,4,18,19,20

40:22,24 41:4,13

41:14,15 44:13

45:17 48:24,25

50:16,19,20 51:8

53:20,24 54:3,11

54:20 59:24

60:4,21,25 61:2

62:9,15,18 63:4

63:11,13 64:3,14

64:16,19 65:4

66:7,14 72:4,9

75:15,21 88:2,8

88:21,25 89:20

93:16 94:15,20

106:10 107:11

107:15,22,23

109:23 110:7

114:11 115:12

115:16,18,19,22

117:17 118:6,25

119:16,17,21

120:4,9 124:9

patentability

30:8,12 62:12,15

62:20 65:12

patentable 45:17

patented 65:16

patents 11:5

20:21 21:23

23:23 27:8

31:12 32:19

35:20 36:6,11

39:8 40:9,11

43:24 44:3 47:4

47:17 48:16,21

49:14,22 50:14

50:23 51:10

53:18,21 54:3

76:8 77:21,25

94:7,8,10 102:6

103:3 106:10

107:16,25 108:3

120:25

pattern 108:5

111:11

paws 50:4

pay 120:21

perception 76:4

77:4

perform 33:19

performed

107:24

performing

39:13 71:11

106:23 110:11

119:15

perimeter 78:16

period 33:4,10

60:20

peripheral 92:11

97:2

permitted 5:2

perpendicular

100:22

person 6:22

14:21 82:12

100:12 111:7

personally 39:7

perspective

26:10 115:4,8,10

116:12 117:24

117:25

perspectives

26:11

pet 50:4,4

photograph

114:16,24 115:7

116:9 123:2,13

photographs

16:24 21:11

102:20 103:8,11

103:13,17 104:6

106:20 108:22

physical 16:25

physics 26:8

picture 67:13

87:23

pictures 69:11

87:20 108:11

piece 83:9

plain 119:23,23

plaintiffs 1:8 2:2

5:18 7:2 11:4,13

11:16 24:10

plates 92:15

120:5

please 5:9,22

9:21,23 12:6

84:6

pleasure 126:7

pllc 2:13

plus 48:12

point 12:7 29:12

29:23 30:10

32:25 54:10,13

61:13,15,23

108:9,12 112:15

123:21 124:12

pointed 124:24

125:7

points 61:10

62:9,11

policies 35:15

36:3

policy 38:19

poor 14:14

portion 40:13

74:8 101:19

109:11 110:22

111:21 112:12

112:20,24 113:3

113:7,10 116:7

116:10 118:12

118:16 119:2

124:5

portions 17:13

48:22 64:19

90:24 112:3

position 26:25

37:6 89:7 125:2

possible 98:21

possibly 83:3

post 52:15

potential 35:11

71:4 82:20,24

83:5,13 96:13

97:5 99:10

100:15 101:2,7

101:11,25

potentially 64:2

102:4 107:19

practice 36:17

36:25 37:5,6,10

40:20 75:15

109:14

prep 15:5

preparation

15:24

prepare 14:24

15:2 20:9 22:9

[patent - prepare] Page 17

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 52 of 63 PageID #:17307
23:18 37:15

38:17 45:16

50:10 51:3

56:13

prepared 20:17

22:19 23:2,19,24

39:22 41:22

42:13 44:7 45:5

45:21 46:19,21

47:3,9 51:5

56:11 58:25

59:10 129:3

preparing 20:5

38:6 58:13

presence 4:19

present 2:18

pretty 31:21

119:22,23

previously 13:2

primarily 28:2

primary 30:9,14

30:21 31:3 32:4

principle 72:9

72:10,11 75:20

78:9

principles 59:7

63:12 64:14

71:13 75:10,14

prior 12:15,23

12:24 22:12,14

22:18 34:14,15

34:18 56:18

59:13,13 60:2

62:22 69:8

70:10,17,22 71:4

71:7 75:23

77:18,24 78:14

79:18 81:18,25

82:6,15,15 83:11

83:17 87:2,6

88:4 96:8,23

107:7,11,15,18

128:4

priority 94:6,20

privileged 68:6,7

68:16 79:24

80:11,15

probably 98:3

104:25 105:5,16

111:3 116:20

problem 18:14

55:7

problems 7:5

procedural 5:3

procedure 35:19

38:20 64:16,20

proceeding 1:19

4:5,25 126:17

129:4

proceedings

128:3,4,5,8

129:5

process 8:3,17

21:5 29:14 37:9

50:11 52:3

produced 4:24

product 26:15

77:23 78:16

82:14 83:7

97:18 106:11

111:14 114:14

114:17 115:17

116:22 117:4

121:10 123:10

123:20

production

33:22,23

products 12:23

16:22 17:2

28:23 46:15

76:7 77:19 79:4

84:19 102:20,25

103:15,22 104:3

104:7,17 107:20

110:2 119:9

program 29:25

30:2,4,4 37:7,9

prominent

110:13 119:20

promoted 29:21

30:9,14 31:24

promotion 31:10

proper 30:7

35:23 40:25

41:23 60:10

65:15

properly 51:5

protects 67:8

provide 10:4,9

10:12 67:22

68:24 85:10

123:22

provided 10:21

11:20 53:3,5

57:2 64:21

73:18 102:19

103:14,16

providing 24:11

52:19

public 1:21

127:22 128:18

130:25

publications

35:12

publicly 38:13

purchase 82:3

82:13 97:8

purchaser 79:6

82:20,25 83:5,14

96:13 97:16

100:15 101:2,12

101:25

purchasers 97:5

99:10

purchasing 79:9

purpose 20:20

21:9 32:23 51:9

121:2,14

purposes 42:2

112:23 113:3

124:18

put 17:21 67:16

103:18

putting 74:2

q

qualified 128:7

quality 102:23

queena 2:20

25:5

question 8:19

9:23 14:15 18:3

22:17 58:16

61:18 64:8

68:11,18 69:12

74:17 76:20

80:14,17,19

87:11,20 91:16

97:12 98:13,20

105:15 115:6

[prepare - question] Page 18

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 53 of 63 PageID #:17308
125:12

questioning

121:22

questions 8:6,13

8:18,23 13:13

15:6 17:16 50:7

57:10 95:25

102:12 125:10

126:5

quick 121:21

quicker 83:22

quickly 8:16

18:23 35:7,10

43:14 55:22

125:13

r

r 2:1

radial 92:22

radii 85:24

radius 90:20

118:23

raise 5:22 73:13

rake 3:10 16:14

58:18,20,25

72:20 76:3

125:17

rake's 125:19

rate 13:24

read 65:22 69:21

74:9,16 75:7

77:7 83:22 84:3

84:8 91:20 92:4

96:3 98:15,17

103:3 119:10

125:18 127:6

reading 42:12

61:20,22 65:14

66:5,20 74:22

79:13 83:23

ready 83:24

really 101:17

110:20 111:9,11

119:24

rear 100:16,20

104:2,6,10,13,16

104:23 105:7

113:14 114:7,10

114:11,12,13,23

115:12 117:5,11

117:11 123:9

124:2

rears 117:14

reason 10:3

124:11,23 130:5

reasonable

97:21

rebuttal 3:9 16:6

19:13 20:3

56:11 57:23

58:4 63:7 78:21

84:9 87:14,15

91:22 95:17

103:12 105:17

122:21

rebutted 16:3

rebutting 19:14

recall 21:18 24:4

44:16 49:19

51:19 54:5

58:15 68:22

92:9 94:15

104:11

receive 103:7

104:5

received 16:24

21:17 25:17

51:8

recessed 110:23

111:20 112:12

112:19 113:6,16

116:7,10,14,21

recognize 56:5,8

recollection 46:3

91:6

recommendation

32:12

recommendati...

31:8

record 4:4,5,21

5:10 6:14 9:17

55:9,11,13 95:4

95:6,8 98:17

112:13 122:10

122:12,14

126:14 127:9,12

128:9 129:5

recorded 5:5

128:6

recording 4:24

128:8 129:4

reduce 112:22

reduced 128:6

refer 11:24 12:5

17:15 23:3

57:22 111:20

113:17

reference 77:3

88:4 92:7 102:7

108:10,21

referenced 78:4

85:21,22 107:21

references

117:22 118:2

referencing 78:5

79:21 80:4

referred 76:23

109:11

referring 63:18

64:9 75:10

83:17 85:22

93:21 100:9,10

100:21 111:25

111:25 112:11

refresh 91:5

regulations 36:7

related 54:3

128:10 129:7

relates 10:24,25

relating 11:6

53:22 59:14

relative 128:12

129:9

relatively 92:20

relevant 64:20

relied 58:13 87:6

125:6

rely 39:24 71:13

89:5 125:8

relying 64:5,11

remained 30:21

remains 82:18

96:12

remember 20:5

20:14,16 28:13

61:9,19,21,22

92:18

remote 1:19 7:22

7:24

[question - remote] Page 19

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 54 of 63 PageID #:17309
remotely 4:18

7:3 9:15

render 103:2

rendered 34:16

rendering 26:10

59:20

renderings

26:11

repeat 76:19

80:18 98:12

rephrase 68:12

report 3:8,9

11:20 16:5,6,6

17:9,14 19:13,15

19:17,20 20:4,6

20:10,18,24 21:2

21:6,15,21 22:6

22:9,11 23:5,5

23:15 37:16

43:11 45:6,16,21

46:7,19,21 47:3

50:10 51:4 55:3

56:12 57:4,9,11

57:22,23 58:3,4

58:8,13 59:4,5,9

63:7 68:24

73:18,21,25 74:8

74:10,15 77:6

78:21,23 79:2

80:4 84:10,17

87:14,15 91:4,22

95:17 103:12,13

103:18 105:17

105:18,22 106:4

106:6 112:8

113:25 122:21

125:18

reported 1:21

reporter 4:2,3

5:19 6:8 8:6,14

9:10,17 18:4,6

18:15 25:3 55:9

55:12 95:4,7

98:15,16,17,19

98:25 122:10,13

126:12,13

reporting 130:1

reports 10:21

13:25 15:4,22,25

16:2,10 17:12

22:12,14,19,25

42:13 43:4 44:7

47:9,10 58:24

represent 11:12

19:18 73:8,21

94:19

representation

104:16

represented

66:23

representing

43:25 44:2

47:12,13 49:2,5

51:13 52:17

request 49:10

requested 98:18

128:22

requests 49:8

required 26:6

32:12 35:4

37:17

requirement

46:24

requirements

34:10

resolved 45:6

respect 34:7

53:3,5 57:6

64:23 77:20

100:24 103:14

responses 9:9

responsibilities

30:25 32:4

36:24

responsibility

33:24 37:3

responsible

32:10 37:22

rest 55:3

retained 16:17

24:14,18,20

40:17 42:9 43:8

43:23,24

retainer 48:22

retire 38:25

retired 23:20

39:2,19,21 40:4

42:8 53:24

60:21

retiring 39:23

40:21 41:11

revealing 80:15

review 15:23

16:5,8,9 29:25

30:2,3,5 31:12

32:12 34:8,25

37:9,10,14 40:22

41:21 49:8,11

53:21 54:2

63:10 92:2

93:22,23 128:22

reviewed 16:21

16:23 31:7

58:24

reviewing 21:7

32:19 33:2

35:16 37:25

39:24 41:24

81:11

reviews 48:24

52:15 97:6,16,18

ridden 17:4

right 5:22 6:22

9:12,18,25 11:17

12:2 17:7 19:24

20:7 23:3,6,11

25:10,19 27:2,5

36:21 39:5

42:16 45:9

46:14 47:6

55:12 57:23

58:6 59:3 60:16

60:22 62:16

70:8 74:23

84:10 87:22

88:6,6 92:19

93:20 94:11,15

98:23 99:25

102:9,17 106:20

107:12,16

110:16,16,18

112:5,5,21

113:23 115:5

118:14,16

119:13 123:12

124:16,21

robin 2:12 5:13

80:3

robin.cheng

2:16

[remotely - robin.cheng] Page 20

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 55 of 63 PageID #:17310
role 30:25 36:20

43:21 45:13,15

70:10

round 119:3

rubber 109:15

rules 5:4 8:15

35:22 36:5

38:23

s

s 2:1 3:6 71:23

130:5

sales 48:11

samples 102:19

103:7

sandoval 1:21

4:3 128:2,17

sarcastic 89:17

satisfactory

32:13

save 94:18

saw 22:5

saying 22:13

28:16 62:3

75:12 84:16

85:20 86:8

93:12 115:21

says 25:14 30:13

41:3,11 42:12

43:15 46:6,18,21

47:2 59:20 63:8

64:13 65:3,14

66:6,21 75:21

76:3 77:16

78:25 79:13

91:22 92:20

100:4 103:24

123:14

schedule 1:12

4:12

science 25:18

26:13

scientific 71:13

76:5,11,22

screen 17:23

18:10 20:6

55:17 95:11,13

99:2 122:17,18

scroll 19:22

55:22 73:11

77:5 83:24 91:8

102:13

scrolling 83:19

91:10,13

search 35:2,4,13

searching 34:20

34:22 35:11

sears 46:16

47:13,24,24

second 55:16

65:2 84:5 87:11

secrecy 50:25

section 59:5,9,12

75:4 95:19

106:5,5

sections 36:10

see 6:19 18:17

19:7 41:4,6,16

42:20 43:17

45:11 46:16

48:12 50:5

52:10 55:18,25

58:9 59:7,24

63:14 65:7,19

66:10 67:3

72:15,23 74:4

76:8 77:25 79:9

79:20 82:22

83:20 87:16,17

87:23 89:6

91:18 94:3,15

95:12,17,21

96:15 99:6

100:17 101:8

104:3 105:6,12

106:7,11,19

108:11,18

109:18,22

110:20 114:2

115:2 116:16,20

118:11 122:17

122:23 123:2,6

123:14

seeing 28:24

67:13 105:2

seen 73:6

segway 54:16,17

54:18

segways 54:19

select 98:9

selected 76:4

self 54:4,8

selling 81:16

semi 90:8,10

118:19

sending 21:10

sent 21:8

sentence 41:9

59:19 63:8 64:9

65:2,21,25 77:15

83:12,23,23 99:6

103:23

separate 47:8,10

separately 47:3

september 19:18

20:13,13,15

56:16 74:5

series 8:18 44:3

48:21

served 19:19

73:10,21

services 24:11

session 15:5 25:8

set 17:18 62:5

80:25

sets 60:9

settle 48:2

settled 46:13

48:3 49:24

settling 44:19

seven 29:18

77:10,11

shakes 9:10

shape 67:9,12

69:19 85:19

86:10 89:12,13

90:5 92:12 93:7

93:15,19 97:2

99:12,23 100:5

101:3,16 102:24

103:21 110:3

118:20

shapes 85:17

89:18

share 18:10,12

18:13 55:17

95:11 99:2

122:17

shared 18:18

55:18 95:13

122:18

[role - shared] Page 21

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 56 of 63 PageID #:17311
sheet 130:1

short 81:17

95:10

show 18:23

67:19 73:24

117:18 120:9,13

showing 88:12

88:14 89:10,11

103:20 108:17

112:18 114:9,22

117:21 124:18

shown 62:8

66:16 69:22

86:15,22 88:10

90:5 103:12

110:3 114:6

115:6

shows 120:3

shroud 47:19

sic 65:2

side 52:17

108:25 117:12

123:12

signatory 29:25

30:2,3,11,15

signature 19:2

55:25 74:4

128:16 129:14

signed 127:18

significant

118:15 119:2

signing 33:2

similar 59:17

65:21,23 70:15

single 104:9

sir 10:19 24:17

34:23 53:16

71:18 77:13

88:11 89:22

91:5

situation 12:4,8

situations 14:5

six 28:14 29:18

30:4,5 42:19

53:2 74:19

skills 128:9

129:6

skim 102:11

skip 91:3

sleds 29:4

slight 115:13

116:5

slightly 109:2

112:17

sloping 116:17

snowmobiles

29:4

sole 125:4

solid 66:16

somebody 83:6

83:10

sorry 14:25 16:9

18:3 27:25

34:21 77:11

90:2 98:25 99:3

105:9 112:25

115:17

sort 108:9 112:3

113:18 120:6

sounds 40:13

soup 48:11,19,20

southport 1:20

4:14

spanned 39:4

spans 122:23

spaulding 129:2

129:15

speak 15:18

specialist 36:18

36:25 37:5,6

specialists 37:10

specific 12:6

57:19 61:9,21

67:12 69:19

74:9 77:3 85:5

85:17,19 99:23

100:4 114:21

specifically 76:4

96:22 107:4

specification

34:5,6

specifics 28:23

speculation

76:16 98:11

105:2

spell 71:18

spelled 71:23

spikerush 4:13

spoke 95:23

spoken 14:12,15

14:21

square 89:15

stand 100:12

101:8,17 111:8

standard 60:10

61:2,7 79:18

81:15

standards 59:23

60:3,7 80:25

standing 121:10

standpoint 62:23

start 19:22 23:9

25:13 26:24

58:7 74:14

116:25

started 27:4,9,10

27:14 93:25

starting 78:24

state 6:14 97:14

128:19,20

stated 125:17

statement 87:12

91:9,17 120:24

states 1:1 41:15

statute 36:10

statutes 35:23

36:8 38:22

64:17

stenographic 5:6

step 24:22 84:23

stephen 46:15

stipulation 5:8

straight 26:21

strictly 33:24

38:8

strike 16:9 52:24

54:2 116:25

120:2

sturm 2:19 5:17

style 92:14 93:8

styles 94:5

subclass 35:11

subject 22:15

35:5 53:18

81:25 82:16

submitted 43:11

subscribed

127:18 130:22

subsection 106:6

substantially

77:20

[sheet - substantially] Page 22

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 57 of 63 PageID #:17312
sufficient 29:20

73:16 74:7

102:22

suggest 86:5

suit 50:22,24

52:13 77:25

suite 2:14 77:22

sum 46:20 52:23

52:24 53:9

summarizing

99:9

summary 22:2

47:22,23 48:4

65:10

supermarkets

48:20

supervisor 31:5

31:6,9 32:6,7,21

33:10 37:4

54:13,21

supervisor's

33:24

supervisors 30:5

supervisory

31:24 32:5,17

36:13

supplemental

38:7,12

supplied 102:21

support 52:20

125:2,20

supporting

49:13

supposed 81:15

supreme 61:5

sure 6:21 10:2

11:18 12:8 19:6

19:23,25 20:8

23:7,12 24:25

34:6,8 38:20

40:24 41:7,22,25

42:21 55:4,6

59:11 68:13

74:11,14,24

76:22 80:21,21

81:5 87:24 89:3

91:12,12 92:10

94:18 96:10

97:20 98:16

102:3,15 103:5

112:13 113:22

114:4 116:15,15

118:3 122:9,25

125:24

surface 92:20,25

99:24 100:6,8,22

101:19 108:5,8

108:13,15,16

109:3,12 110:15

110:17,20,21,24

112:4 113:8

114:12 116:17

117:6 119:24,25

120:3,4,8,25

123:25 124:3

surfaces 100:12

100:16,20,21

104:2,17,23

114:8,10 121:5

susan 129:2,15

swear 4:18 5:21

sworn 4:21 6:5

128:5 130:22

t

t 3:6 71:23,23

127:2

table 55:24

take 4:4,15 7:7

9:24 19:21

21:21 55:2,5

75:5 77:7 83:21

91:7 95:2 97:5

102:10 108:23

119:9 121:20,22

121:25 123:16

taken 4:8 7:12

7:17 37:13

40:11 112:8

127:7 128:3,11

129:8

takes 29:18

talk 9:15 24:24

78:22

talked 107:9

talking 22:14

23:10 108:8

target 92:3

tarter 2:5 5:17

tarterkrinsky.c...

2:8

technical 7:4

technologies

43:16

technology 1:6

2:3 4:9 25:19,23

26:4 27:20

37:12,24 52:10

tell 6:5 8:12,24

9:21 25:21 26:2

33:13 61:14

108:20 114:5

116:8,14

telling 65:25

66:2

temple 25:15

26:17

ten 55:5 74:22

tends 124:25

term 48:17

71:15,21,24 78:6

test 61:13,15,23

62:5,11,19,25

63:2 70:7,11

testified 6:7

42:13 44:13

121:7

testify 43:6 46:9

48:7

testifying 24:24

44:24 73:17

128:5

testimony 10:5,9

10:13 51:17

97:10 127:7

thank 5:19 6:8

10:15 25:9,10

106:3 126:5,7,9

126:10,11,13

thanks 55:8

74:12,25

theory 76:5

125:20

thereof 65:6

thickness 89:10

thing 9:22 69:2

83:5 90:15 93:5

107:21 109:5,6

things 7:9

[sufficient - things] Page 23

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 58 of 63 PageID #:17313
think 7:15 10:6

15:16 19:16,17

21:19 31:19

48:17 49:22,23

54:6,7,10,15,18

57:5 61:6,8

65:23 67:24

71:3 75:20 81:3

81:15,22 82:10

82:10 83:2,4,9

84:25 85:23

86:2,14 89:8

96:6 97:20,24

101:10 102:3

103:16 109:25

111:3,9,16

112:17 113:5

115:5,20 116:11

121:12,16,21

122:4,6 124:10

124:17,19 125:3

thinks 80:13

third 59:19

three 106:20,23

107:2 108:10

110:2 117:25

119:15

tick 50:17

time 1:18 5:9

7:16 9:4,4,20

15:13 24:5,8,16

26:16 27:24

33:4 39:7,11

40:8,8,14 53:20

54:21 60:16,20

60:20,24 71:6

72:4 73:16 74:7

93:24 94:19

122:8 126:8

times 7:14 31:4

31:14

title 29:9,13

titled 59:6 72:19

today 6:22 7:3

8:5 10:5,17

14:24 15:24

today's 15:3

told 16:20 94:17

104:20

top 19:22 87:15

87:22 92:21

99:24 100:6,8,22

101:19 106:18

108:8,12,15,16

109:3,11 110:15

110:17,20,21

112:4 113:8,12

113:25

total 52:25

trademark

41:15

trail 4:14

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76:12,25

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33:14,16 37:19

37:23 38:8,9,12

transcriber

129:1

transcript 4:23

9:11 112:23

113:4 127:6,8

128:22 129:3,4

transcriptionist

128:7

transferred

27:18,24 28:2

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28:3 29:2,3

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43:6 46:10,12

47:25 48:7,25

51:17 64:3

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104:18 127:9,13

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8:12

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10:13

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48:17 54:6,17

61:8,20 67:5,7

89:17

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47:8,17 74:17

100:11 104:11

105:13 116:18

117:23 120:5,13

type 25:22 26:5

27:14 48:14

50:7 121:17

typewriting

128:6

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u

u.s.c. 34:12

uh 74:24 111:22

113:22

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8:8,19,23,25 9:3

9:7 11:3,19 18:8

58:19 61:18

75:12 80:6

87:25 99:11

102:23 115:2

understanding

10:16,19,23 11:9

11:22,23 21:9

22:22 51:23

59:6 63:13 65:3

65:15 66:6,21

70:12 75:9 78:3

80:22 81:7

121:14

understood

30:13 33:4

42:11 43:9

54:24

unicorn 1:6 2:3

4:10 11:14

unicorporated

1:11

unicorported

4:11

unincorporated

130:2

unit 27:12,19,23

31:5 32:8 37:4

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 59 of 63 PageID #:17314
united 1:1 41:15

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unsatisfactory

32:16

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24:2,5,8

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41:12

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107:22

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62:6 130:2

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45:24

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93:22

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54:4

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121:15

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videoconference

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114:13,18,20

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117:24

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75:24 111:4

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18:10,11 19:21

21:20 23:3,8

28:8 58:6 73:11

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108:12,23

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122:7

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95:25

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119:15

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106:16

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118:16,18,21,24

119:3

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42:15 61:19

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128:4

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114:6

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23:22,23 25:22

26:6,15 27:14

29:19 30:6 31:8

31:17 32:10,13

33:2 40:6,14

43:3,7

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31:19,20

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27:15 28:20

42:5 93:25

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 60 of 63 PageID #:17315
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125:13

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35:14 36:2

46:23 50:25

69:9

wrong 115:21

x

x 3:1,6 128:22

y

yeah 18:6 19:25

20:2 34:4,24

43:20 46:2 49:9

54:14,18,25 55:6

59:11 60:23

61:19 75:11,12

84:25 87:17,19

89:3,4 90:7,23

92:10 94:9

103:16 105:11

110:10 111:16

111:18 112:16

113:20,20 115:9

117:5,8,8 120:7

120:15 121:12

122:9 123:15

125:7,8,9

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30:17 31:15

32:11 93:9,12,25

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128:20 130:1

z

zhang 2:20 25:5

zoom 18:9,20

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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 61 of 63 PageID #:17316
Federal Rules of Civil Procedure

Rule 30

(e) Review By the Witness; Changes.

(1) Review; Statement of Changes. On request by the 

deponent or a party before the deposition is 

completed, the deponent must be allowed 30 days 

after being notified by the officer that the 

transcript or recording is available in which:

(A) to review the transcript or recording; and

(B) if there are changes in form or substance, to 

sign a statement listing the changes and the 

reasons for making them.

(2) Changes Indicated in the Officer's Certificate. 

The officer must note in the certificate prescribed 

by Rule 30(f)(1) whether a review was requested 

and, if so, must attach any changes the deponent 

makes during the 30-day period.

DISCLAIMER: THE FOREGOING FEDERAL PROCEDURE RULES 

ARE PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY. 

THE ABOVE RULES ARE CURRENT AS OF APRIL 1, 

2019. PLEASE REFER TO THE APPLICABLE FEDERAL RULES 

OF CIVIL PROCEDURE FOR UP-TO-DATE INFORMATION. 

Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 62 of 63 PageID #:17317
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Case: 1:20-cv-04806 Document #: 671-1 Filed: 09/29/23 Page 63 of 63 PageID #:17318