EXHIBIT 2
· · · · · · IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

· · · · · ·FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS

· · · · · · · · · · · EASTERN DIVISION

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )

LIZA GRAY· · · · · · · · · · · · ·)

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )

· · · · · · · ·PLAINTIFF,· · · · ·)

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )

· · · · · v.· · · · · · · · · · · )· Case No. 20 CV 02466

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )

MANORCARE HEALTH SERVICES, LLC,· ·)

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )

doing business as HCR MANORCARE· ·)

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )

HEALTH SERVICES, LLC,· · · · · · ·)

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )

· · · · · · · ·DEFENDANT.· · · · ·)

· _______________________________

· The web conference deposition of Diane Lube, called

· for examination, taken pursuant to the Federal Rules

· of Civil Procedure of the United States District

· Courts pertaining to the taking of depositions before

· Lindsay Welbers, a notary public within and for the

· County of Cook and State of Illinois, on the 13th day

· of October 2021, at the hour of 10:02 a.m. CST (VIA

· ZOOM)

· REPORTED BY:· LINDSAY WELBERS

· IL NOTARY:· 911623

Diane Lube - HCR Regional Manager
APPEARANCES:

EMERY LAW, LTD.

2021 MIDWEST ROAD

SUITE 200

OAK BROOK, ILLINOIS 60523

BY ETHAN E. WHITE

· · · · ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF

LITTLER MENDELSON P.C.

111 MONUMENT CIRCLE

SUITE 702

INDIANAPOLIS, INDIANA 46204

BY PETER T. TSCHANZ

ptschanz@littler.com

· · · · ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT
· ·TABLE OF CONTENTS

WITNESSES:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGES

·Diane Lube

· · ·By Mr. White· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 5
· · · · · · · · · P R O C E E D I N G S

· · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· I have just a couple of things

to mention prior to going on the record.· Remote

depositions are more challenging, and we kindly ask all

participants to speak clearly and one at a time.· All

parties are aware that the witness will be sworn in

remotely.· The parties agree not to challenge the

validity of any oath administered by the court

reporter, even if the court reporter is not physically

present with the witness and not a notary public in the

state where the witness resides.

· · · · · ·So here begins the web -- sorry.· Here beings

the web conference deposition of Ms. Diane Lube in the

matter of Gray versus ManorCare Health Services, LLC.

Today's date is October 18th, 2021, and the time is

10:02 a.m. Central.· My name is Lindsay Welbers with

Thompson Court Reporters.

· · · · · ·Beginning with noticing party, will counsel

please introduce themselves, state whom they represent,

and stipulate to the swearing in of the witness

remotely?

· · · · · ·MR. WHITE:· Good morning.· Ethan White for

the Plaintiff.· And I do so stipulate.

· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· Good morning.· Peter Tschanz
for the Defendant.· And I stipulate as well.

· · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· Ms. Lube, will you please

raise your right hand?

· · · · · · · · · ·(Oath administered.)

· · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· All right.· The witness has

declared their testimony during this proceeding is

under penalty of perjury.· The parties have stated

their agreement on the record.

· · · · · ·You may proceed.

· · · · · · · · · · · · DIANE LUBE

called as a witness, after having been first remotely

duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

· · · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION

BY MR. WHITE:

· · · · · ·Q.· Good morning, ma'am.· My name is Ethan

White.· I represent the Plaintiff in this lawsuit.· If

you could state and spell your name for the record,

please.

· · · · · ·A.· Sure.· My name is Diane Lube, D-I-A-N-E.

Last name is L-U-B-E.

· · · · · ·Q.· Thank you.· Ms. Lube, have you ever been

deposed before?

· · · · · ·A.· I have.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Approximately how many times?
· · · · · ·A.· Probably about a handful of times.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So, like, four or five, something

like that?

· · · · · ·A.· Four, five.· Yeah.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· When is the most recent?

· · · · · ·A.· Probably a couple years ago.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you recall what kind of case that was?

· · · · · ·A.· It was a patient -- it was -- was a case

with a -- associated with a patient.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Is that true for the other

depositions that you've been in?· It was related to a

patient?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.· I -- I think I have been deposed

one time in a employment case -- a little bit

differently, though.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And what do you mean a little bit

differently?

· · · · · ·A.· I think it was a little bit more of a pre

kind of conversation.· So I don't know if it was quite

the same thing.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Do you remember what that case was

about?

· · · · · ·A.· I do not.· That was quite -- quite many

years ago.
· · · · · ·Q.· Do you remember the name of the plaintiff

in that lawsuit?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know, were you a defendant in that

lawsuit, or you were just being deposed as a witness?

· · · · · ·A.· As a witness.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know the outcome of that lawsuit?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· I do not.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Well, this will probably be pretty

similar to those, but I'll just kind of go through a

quick refresher so we're all on the same page.

Probably the most important -- particularly because

we're remote -- is, you know, I will ask a question. I

ask that you let me finish before you try and answer.

And I will do the same for you just so we have a clean

record and we're not talking over each other, okay?

· · · · · ·A.· Okay.

· · · · · ·Q.· I need all your answers to be out loud.

So the court reporter can't pick up nodding of the head

or shrugging shoulders or anything like that.· Okay?

· · · · · ·A.· Okay.

· · · · · ·Q.· If you need to take a break for any

reason, that's totally fine.· Just let me know.· I only

ask that you answer whatever question is pending before
we take that break.

· · · · · ·A.· Okay.

· · · · · ·Q.· What else?· If you don't understand any

of my questions or a word that I used or a phrase or

I've mispronounced something, please just let me know

because if you answer we're going to assume you

understood what I was asking.· Okay?

· · · · · ·A.· Okay.

· · · · · ·Q.· Any reason you can't give full, complete,

accurate testimony here today?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· I only ask this because we're on Zoom.

Normally, it's easier sitting in a conference room.

But is anyone in the room with you?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you have any notes in front of you?

· · · · · ·A.· I do not.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you have anything at all in front of

you besides a coffee or something?

· · · · · ·A.· I have a cup of coffee.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And you understand that during

your deposition nobody can provide you information?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.· I do.

· · · · · ·Q.· And you'll agree that you're not going to
text message with your lawyer or anybody else while

your testimony is going on?

· · · · · ·A.· I understand.· I agree.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And you'll agree that no

one -- whether your lawyer or anybody -- nobody's going

to give you information while your deposition is

ongoing, okay?

· · · · · ·A.· Understood.

· · · · · ·Q.· All right.· When did you start working at

ManorCare?

· · · · · ·A.· December of 2001.

· · · · · ·Q.· Oh, so quite a while.· And are you

working there currently?

· · · · · ·A.· I am.

· · · · · ·Q.· When you started in 2001, what was your

role or your position?

· · · · · ·A.· I was the admissions director of our

Palos West facility.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And how long were you the

admissions director at Palos West?

· · · · · ·A.· Roughly two years, maybe.

· · · · · ·Q.· That's fine.· I don't need exact.

· · · · · ·A.· Yeah.

· · · · · ·Q.· I just kind of want to understand your
resume a little bit.· Okay.· So two years.· And what

did you do after that?

· · · · · ·A.· I became an assistant administrator for

the region.· And I did that roughly for sixish months.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And what after that?

· · · · · ·A.· I became an administrator at our

Naperville facility at the time.

· · · · · ·Q.· And how longer were administrator at

Naperville?

· · · · · ·A.· Roughly three years.

· · · · · ·Q.· And what after that?

· · · · · ·A.· I became an administrator and then a

senior administrator at our Hinsdale building.

· · · · · ·Q.· All right.· Now we're starting to get

warmer in time period.· How long did you do that for?

· · · · · ·A.· I did that -- gets a little fuzzy here

for me -- somewhere between 8 and 10 years.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And what did you do -- let's see.

So we're getting there.· So what did you do after

Hinsdale?

· · · · · ·A.· Then I became -- after I became the

senior administrator in the region, although still

managing Hinsdale and a couple other properties, I

became the regional director of operations.· My first
assignment, I had buildings down in central Illinois

and Indiana.· And then I moved up to

our -- transitioned up -- again, different

regions -- up to the Chicagoland area as the -- as the

regional director still.

· · · · · ·Q.· And are you currently the RDO?

· · · · · ·A.· I am.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Over the same region that you

were --

· · · · · ·A.· Yeah.· I mean, the region has changed a

bit, but roughly, yes.· In the same area.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· When you were at Hinsdale -- so

you started at Hinsdale as an administrator; is that

right?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I did.· Yeah.

· · · · · ·Q.· What were your responsibilities as an

administrator at Hinsdale?

· · · · · ·A.· Administrator respective are oversight

over that facility.· So, you know, you have complete

oversight.· You're the licensed administrator for a

facility.

· · · · · ·Q.· How did that differ at all, if it did

differ, when you became a senior administrator at

Hinsdale?
· · · · · ·A.· I supported the regional director with

oversight over a couple other facilities, helping out

with training, education in other facilities as needed.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And then you said once you became

an RDO, you were still -- I think you said you were

still doing work at Hinsdale as an administrator?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· No.· Just as a senior administrator.

Yes.· Once I became an RDO, I -- I didn't initially

have oversight Hinsdale.· And then I -- now again I

did, so.

· · · · · ·Q.· So help me understand that a little bit.

So you're a senior administrator at Hinsdale.· You get

promoted, I assume, to regional director of operations.

Are you still at that point in time doing work at

Hinsdale or no?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.

· · · · · ·A.· Not initially.· So when I first became

the regional director, I had probably about 10

buildings in central Illinois and Indiana.· That was

for a little less than a year -- probably about 11

months.· And then was realigned to become the regional

director over the Chicagoland property initially in

South Chicago.· And then as our region changed,
we -- we divested some buildings.· And so we, you

know -- all along my time as regional director,

buildings have been added or subtracted.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· All right.· Are you familiar with

the Plaintiff in this case, Liza Gray?

· · · · · ·A.· I am.

· · · · · ·Q.· When do you think you first met Ms. Gray?

· · · · · ·A.· Probably early in my tenure, you know,

with ManorCare.

· · · · · ·Q.· Probably in the early 2000s, you think?

· · · · · ·A.· Sometime in there, yeah.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Do you recall what position she

held when you first met her?

· · · · · ·A.· Regional nurse, I believe.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know what her responsibilities

were as a regional nurse?

· · · · · ·A.· So regional nurses support the region

kind of in any capacity.· So various different

assignments, education -- a lot of it is as needed

based on, you know, what's happening at different

facilities at the time.· It's a support role.

· · · · · ·Q.· Is it almost -- I'm sure I'm using the

right term -- is it almost like a floater?· Like they

kind of where the work is needed?
· · · · · ·A.· A little bit.· I mean, it could be.· It

could be -- it could be assignments.· It could be, you

know, a variety of different things.

· · · · · ·Q.· Is it possible that somebody could also

be -- or a regional nurse, I should say, is kind of

stationed at a building for a long period of time?

· · · · · ·A.· Could be.· Depends upon where and when,

you know -- what is needed at a building.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And I guess let's think more

recent time.· Who made the determination of where a

regional nurse should be placed?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, mostly the regional director would.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And --

· · · · · ·A.· And we might consult with clinical

services, human resources, administrators, but --

· · · · · ·Q.· And if I say RDO interchangeably with

regional director of operations, those are the same

things, right?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.· Uh-huh (affirmative).

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And I apologize in advance.· I may

refer to a witness by their first name.· I certainly

don't mean any disrespect to anybody with that.· It's

just you live with the file long enough, you start to

use people's first names, so.
· · · · · ·A.· Sure.

· · · · · ·Q.· Don't take any offense.· All right.· So

in your time working with Ms. Gray, are you aware of

any performance problems with her?

· · · · · ·A.· Nothing notable, you know.· I -- I

wouldn't say anything notable, no.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Would you agree that she was a

good employee?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· Would you agree that she was a hard

worker?

· · · · · ·A.· Yeah.

· · · · · ·Q.· In your experience in the organization,

was she generally well liked?

· · · · · ·A.· Generally.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.

· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· I'm just going to object.

Calls for speculation.· But the witness answered.

BY MR. WHITE:

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· When you were working in the

Hinsdale facility -- and I'm not sure if it's when you

were an administrator or a senior administrator -- do

you recall an instance where Ms. Gray came into the

facility for an investigation into some mishandled
drugs or alleged mishandled drugs?

· · · · · ·A.· I do.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Do you know approximately when

that was?

· · · · · ·A.· I do not.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know if it was when you were an

administrator or a senior administrator?

· · · · · ·A.· I do not.

· · · · · ·Q.· What do you recall about that situation?

Just give me the context.

· · · · · ·A.· I don't -- I don't recall a ton. I

remember the -- Liza was assigned by the regional

director at the time or the RDO at the time, Leslie

Ohm.· And she came in to do an investigation to help

support, you know, what -- which is not an abnormal

item for a regional nurse to do if there's something to

be looked at.

· · · · · ·Q.· And what was the outcome of that

investigation?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, I don't recall.

· · · · · ·Q.· All right.· Do you recall Ms. Gray saying

that the Hinsdale facility had drugs for patients who

had already been checked out?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I don't recall.· I -- I've done a
lot of drug investigations during my time.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you remember if you agreed or

disagreed with Ms. Gray's conclusions regarding those

drugs?

· · · · · ·A.· I do not.

· · · · · ·Q.· Would you have known she was coming

beforehand, which is to say --

· · · · · ·A.· I should.· I should.· I -- and I can tell

you I do remember in this case that the regional

director assigned her and then did call me afterwards.

But we should know as -- as the administrators of the

building.

· · · · · ·Q.· Did you care one way or another that Ms.

Gray was in the building doing the investigation?

· · · · · ·A.· I wouldn't care if anybody was in the

building doing the investigation.· I would care if I

knew about it.

· · · · · ·Q.· What do you mean, you would care if you

knew about it?

· · · · · ·A.· Meaning in this scenario, I -- I do

recall that I was told afterwards about it from the

regional director at the time.· But I would not care

for assistance with an investigation.

· · · · · ·Q.· So if I'm understanding, are you saying
you were annoyed at the fact that you didn't know about

it beforehand?

· · · · · ·A.· I do recall that.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And why would that have been

annoying or frustrating to you?

· · · · · ·A.· Because it's disrespectful to somebody

who's running a facility.

· · · · · ·Q.· All right.· And would you have felt that

disrespect from the RDO or from Ms. Gray?

· · · · · ·A.· From the RDO.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you recall saying anything to Ms. Gray

about not being notified about the investigation while

she was in the building?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I don't recall.· I don't -- I don't

recall.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you recall having a conversation with

Leslie Ohm about not having notice beforehand?

· · · · · ·A.· I do.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know when that conversation

occurred?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't.

· · · · · ·Q.· Was it in person, over the phone, email?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, I do not.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Do you remember anything that was
said or written about that lack of notice?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I do not specifically.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Have you ever heard the saying there's

the ManorCare way and then there's the Hinsdale way?

· · · · · ·A.· That's a little bit of a joke from a long

time ago.· I -- I think it's more of a joke.· I don't

know that it's anything -- there's been many

administrators who have run Hinsdale, so that --

· · · · · ·Q.· What does the joke mean to you?

· · · · · ·A.· It's a difficult question.· Hinsdale's

kind of an affluent suburb in our area.· Hinsdale's a

very large building.· Hinsdale has -- and this probably

is not as applicable today as it probably was in the

early 2000s.· You know, Hinsdale -- when I took over

the Hinsdale building, you know, I followed an

extremely successful administrator who often -- who

often, you know, received and did things kind of

independently and kind of a joke of, you know, if

Hinsdale wanted to get something, they could.

· · · · · ·So that was more of a reputation among things

like maybe spending more capital dollars, things like

that.· But, you know, nothing that would ever be

specific to, you know, anything more than that.

· · · · · ·Q.· When did you take over Hinsdale as the
administrator?

· · · · · ·A.· Let me think for a second here. I

believe it was in 2008.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And who was the administrator

right before you that I think you said was very

successful?

· · · · · ·A.· I followed John Vrba as the administrator

at the time.· I -- I think there might have been a

little bit of somebody else quickly who was kind of

part of that same regime.· But John Vrba was the

administrator there for a long time before me.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· All right.· Thinking about this

investigation that Ms. Gray was tasked to do in

Hinsdale, do you know -- did you receive any discipline

based on the outcome of that investigation?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know if anybody did?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I would be speculating if a nurse or

somebody did, but I don't remember.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· You don't have a specific memory

of anyone getting disciplined?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I don't.· Unfortunately, like I

said, drug investigations are not uncommon.

· · · · · ·Q.· And I believe you said you don't remember
the outcome, but you remember -- well, strike that.

· · · · · ·So you had a conversation with Ms. Ohm after

the investigation, correct?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall if it was during or after.

· · · · · ·Q.· Was that just a onetime communication

about the investigation, though?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall.

· · · · · ·Q.· At the time period of that investigation,

who was your boss?

· · · · · ·A.· Leslie Ohm.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Do you recall other instances

where Ms. Ohm sent somebody into Hinsdale without

giving you advanced notice?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall.

· · · · · ·Q.· So as far as you can remember, this was

the one time when it happened?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't know that -- if it was the one

time when it happened or not.· I do recall this time.

I don't recall if there were others.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So just I'm clear, you

specifically recall being surprised by Ms. Gray's

visit.· You don't recall being surprised by other

visits?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall.· Correct.
· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Do you recall a different time

when Ms. -- well, let me back up because I don't

think -- did you ever work at Oak Lawn East?

· · · · · ·A.· Early in my career as an assistant

administrator for about six months.· That would have

been in probably 2003 -- 2002, 2003.

· · · · · ·Q.· Then later when you became an RDO, did

you have responsibility over Oak Lawn East?

· · · · · ·A.· I did.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· When did that responsibility

start, I guess?

· · · · · ·A.· Probably at the end of 2016, roughly.

· · · · · ·Q.· Yeah, no.· That's fine.· When you started

as the RDO over Oak Lawn East, is this -- was that, I

guess, after you had done the buildings in central

Illinois and Indiana?

· · · · · ·A.· Yeah.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.

· · · · · ·A.· When Leslie retired, I was moved from

that area back to the Chicagoland area.

· · · · · ·Q.· And I believe you said at first you were

managing buildings in the South Side of Chicago or

the --

· · · · · ·A.· South Chicago, which would include --
· · · · · ·Q.· South Chicago.

· · · · · ·A.· -- Oak Lawn East.· Yeah.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.

· · · · · ·A.· So just kind of North Chicago, South

Chicago is kind of where I was referencing.· We were

two regions at the time I became the RDO.· We are not

two regions anymore.

· · · · · ·Q.· All right.· So when you were the RDO over

Oak Lawn East, do you remember Ms. Gray raising any

concerns about patient admissions?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you recall her raising concerns about

lacking equipment for a trach patient?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you recall her raising concerns about

a lack of staff to handle an alcoholic patient?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall.

· · · · · ·Q.· Who at that time -- so approximately

2016, 2017 -- who had ultimate authority over

admissions at Oak Lawn East?

· · · · · ·A.· Well, admissions are -- we have a

department for admissions that ultimately will do

majority of the processes without need for authority.

I mean, that's more of a procedural item.· You know,
administrators then would have ultimate responsibility.

And then myself or the marketing director ultimately

will get involved if, you know, we need to stop

admissions or things like that.· So depends upon the

nature of -- of what you're looking for.

· · · · · ·Q.· Is it fair to say that you as the RDO had

the ultimate decision-making for patient admissions?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Who had the ultimate

decision-making?

· · · · · ·A.· I'm not -- I'm not sure that I understand

exactly what you're asking.· So if you could clarify.

So we don't -- I would never get involved in every

decision of a patient being admitted.

· · · · · ·Q.· I guess what I'm getting at is if perhaps

if there's disagreements, you know, whether a

particular patient should be admitted or not amongst

the team, amongst the administrator, et cetera, who

ultimately resolves that dispute about whether a

patient should be admitted or not?

· · · · · ·A.· It would depend upon the scenario. I

mean, there's not a black and white -- I mean, again,

is that prior to admission?· Is that after admission?

Is that, you know, in a patient review?· I mean, it
would all completely depend upon a scenario.

· · · · · ·Q.· As the RDO, what is your role in that

decision?

· · · · · ·A.· If the administrator were to call me or

the, you know -- you know, maybe the liaison were to

call me to say I don't believe we could handle this

patient, you know, we would grant, you know, denial.

· · · · · ·Q.· But what if an administrator called and

said I'm not sure if we could handle this patient?

Could you as the RDO say admit them anyways?

· · · · · ·A.· I wouldn't.

· · · · · ·Q.· That's never happened?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· If an administrator says that they

cannot handle a patient, I would grant -- I would

absolutely support that administrative decision of the

building.

· · · · · ·Q.· If you would always support it, why would

they even need to run it by you?

· · · · · ·A.· So -- because it could be a variety of

different reasons of why you couldn't handle an

admission.· It could be a clinical reason.· It could be

a staffing reason.· It could be an equipment reason.

It could be an education reason.· So we like to know,

you know, what for future -- if that's a today
decision, is it a long-term decision?· Is that

something we need to fix?· Is that something we'll ever

be able to?· Is that something that the hospital is

going to be wanting us to do into the future?· You

know, we have partnerships with physicians, with

hospital programs, with all different folks for a

variety of different reasons.· You know, we need to

know our business, whether we're taking a patient or

not taking a patient.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you recall telling Ms. Gray that she

should not be involving herself in patient admissions?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall.

· · · · · ·Q.· Could have happened; could not have

happened?

· · · · · ·A.· Correct.

· · · · · ·Q.· Under what scenario would you have told

Ms. Gray not to review patient admissions?

· · · · · ·A.· I think that I would be speculating if I

would be -- you know, we have a process in place for

our admissions departments, our directors of nursing,

our administrators.· So I mean, Liza would not need to

be involved in any admission process whatsoever.· That

would never have been her job.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So I mean, basically, if I
understand, you're saying it's not her --

· · · · · ·A.· I'm just turning off my ringer. I

apologize.

· · · · · ·Q.· No.· That's okay.· That's okay.

· · · · · ·A.· Okay.· I apologize.

· · · · · ·Q.· No problem.· If I understand, you're

saying it was not part of her job to look at the

admissions?

· · · · · ·A.· It was not.

· · · · · ·Q.· Are there times when regional nurses give

their opinions on particular admissions?

· · · · · ·A.· We have -- we have a clinical services

department.· So we have a -- at the -- I don't recall

their -- today they're called quality assurance

consultants.· So we've always had nurse consultants in

the region.· So if we needed that, we would go through

our clinical service department nurses.

· · · · · ·Q.· And I assume Ms. Gray was not one of

those clinical support nurses?

· · · · · ·A.· She was not.

· · · · · ·Q.· Was she at any time that you're aware of?

· · · · · ·A.· Not to my knowledge.

· · · · · ·Q.· All right.· Shifting gears a little bit.

So at some point in 2018, was there a decision made to
eliminate Ms. Gray's position?

· · · · · ·A.· So backing up a second here.· So Liza's

position as a regional nurse was not paid on our

corporate payroll.· It was paid out of the region.· And

so when I took over our Oak Lawn East facility, at

some -- and again, time frames are a little fuzzy here.

At some point in time, I made the decision to help out

Oak Lawn East.· We were transitioning.· We had brought

in a new administrator, a new director of nursing and

had Liza there to support that facility.

· · · · · ·And then at some point in time, we made the

decision for once Oak Lawn East was much more

successful and stable and independent to want to move

Liza out of Oak Lawn East.· It was never the intention

to permanently put Liza at Oak Lawn East.· Time frames

are a little fuzzy.

· · · · · ·Q.· All right.· Well, let's talk about it.

You said you put in a new admin at Oak Lawn East.· Who

was that?

· · · · · ·A.· Kelly Ciger.

· · · · · ·Q.· All right.· And then I thought you said

somebody else new came.· Was that a senior

administrator?

· · · · · ·A.· Director of nursing.
· · · · · ·Q.· Director.· And who was that?

· · · · · ·A.· That would have been Jackie -- and her

name -- her -- I know her well.· Her last name is

escaping me at the moment.

· · · · · ·Q.· That's okay.· So first name is Jackie,

yes?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.· Sorry.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· No.· Not a problem.· Not a

problem.· All right.· So yeah.· I kind of want to see

how much we can flesh out this time line here.· So you

said you take over Oak Lawn East.· Was Ms. Ciger

already in place as the admin when you took over?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· When I moved into the regional

director role, there was an open position and right

around shortly after I started into the regional

director role or transitioned into that market, Kelly

was -- we assigned Kelly to be the administrator over

Oak Lawn East.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And when was that?· You thought

you started in, like, 2016?· Was that 2016?

· · · · · ·A.· Yeah.· So it probably would have been the

end of 2016.· I -- I believe December of 2016.

· · · · · ·Q.· And do you know what Ms. Gray was doing

at Oak Lawn East at that time?
· · · · · ·A.· I don't believe she was at Oak Lawn East

at that time.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Was she at that time then brought

over to Oak Lawn East to support the new admin, et

cetera?

· · · · · ·A.· Not at the same time, no.· It would have

been I think a little bit later than not.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Approximately when do you think

Ms. Gray came over to Oak Lawn East?

· · · · · ·A.· Roughly probably sometime in 2017, but

I -- I really don't remember the exact time frame.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you remember the season?· Spring,

fall, summer, winter?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I really do not.· I really do not

because she was still coming to regional meetings,

supporting the region, you know, during this time.· So

no.· I -- I do not.

· · · · · ·Q.· And what was her -- I think you said she

was kind of brought over as support.· But what was kind

of her specific role in 2017 at Oak Lawn East?

· · · · · ·A.· To assist with education, to assist with

training, to assist with monitoring of, you know,

staffing.· And not -- excuse me.· Monitoring of -- on

the floor activity, staffing, you know, things like
that that would be happening in the building.

Primarily, you know, education, training, not staffing

in terms of staffing of employees because Liza -- Liza

was never on call or Liza never, you know, hung her

nursing license or anything like that.

· · · · · ·Q.· Was she doing anything for ManorCare

apart from what she was doing at Oak Lawn East at that

time, which is to say was she still going to other

buildings, any --

· · · · · ·A.· I believe so.· Yes.· I believe so for

quite some time she was.· She would go to regional

meetings.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· Were regional meetings always held in one

place, or did they move around?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· They would move around.

· · · · · ·Q.· To different buildings?

· · · · · ·A.· Uh-huh (affirmative).

· · · · · ·Q.· That's a yes?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.· Sorry.

· · · · · ·Q.· No problem.· It's awkward.· All right.

And then do you know what other buildings she was going

to?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, I do not.

· · · · · ·Q.· You know she was doing work at Oak Lawn
East, but you don't know where else she was working?

· · · · · ·A.· Right.· And again, you know, I do recall

that it -- Oak Lawn East at the time was a priority. I

just don't recall at what point in time Liza went, you

know, more -- more time there than other places.· You

know, that -- that was not -- you know, many of the

other buildings didn't have the same transition that

Oak Lawn East had had or the -- when I took it over.

· · · · · ·Q.· What do you mean, transition?· You mean

bringing in a new administrator, a new department --

· · · · · ·A.· Yeah.· It had just had a struggle of some

administrative, you know, changes there.

· · · · · ·Q.· Was kind of an administrative overhaul

when you took it over?

· · · · · ·A.· It was empty when I was assigned it, so.

It -- it had to be filled and trained.

· · · · · ·Q.· Kind of a mess left for you to clean up?

Something like that?

· · · · · ·A.· It happens.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So it sounds like sometime in

2017, Ms. Gray comes over to Oak Lawn East to kind of

assist with this whole transition.· At some point in

time, though, she was -- her position was no longer

needed at Oak Lawn East; is that correct?
· · · · · ·A.· At some point in time, that is correct.

· · · · · ·Q.· And when approximately was that?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I don't recall exact time.· I -- I

really -- the time frames I'm not going to be able to

recall exactly.

· · · · · ·Q.· And I'm not asking for exact.· I guess I

am entitled to your best recollection, though.· So if

it's, you know, 2018, you know, that's it.

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I really don't recall.· I -- I --

· · · · · ·Q.· No idea?

· · · · · ·A.· Yeah.

· · · · · ·Q.· No idea when the decision was made that

she was no longer needed?

· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· I'm just going to object.

Grounds of asked and answer.· You can say your answer

again.

· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yeah.· I -- I mean, these time

frames are -- this -- this was one small part of

responsibility of my job.· I'm not going to be -- time

frame wise, I -- I don't recall.

· · · · · ·Q.· Is there anything out there that would

refresh your memory about when this occurred?

· · · · · ·A.· I believe that at the time that we were

having -- because we had placed Liza on Oak Lawn East
payroll, which, again, was not uncommon because I think

during the tenure we had moved payrolls a couple of

times.· I -- I do believe we issued a letter

that -- that we were moving her.· So there probably is

a document.

· · · · · ·Q.· I just want to make sure I understand.

So you think there's a letter that exists telling Liza,

what, her position's being eliminated and she's being

transferred --

· · · · · ·A.· I --

· · · · · ·Q.· -- or what?

· · · · · ·A.· -- I don't exactly remember the contents

of the letter, but, yes, I do remember a letter.

· · · · · ·Q.· Yeah.· You specifically remember a

letter?

· · · · · ·A.· I do.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know who wrote the letter?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know if that letter was provided

to your lawyers in connection with this litigation?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, I don't know if it -- anything like

that would exist would be in -- in -- probably in an

employment file.· So I -- I don't know.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know the last time you saw that
letter?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, probably at that time.

· · · · · ·Q.· At the time it was provided to Liza?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Okay.· Backing up a little bit, we

had talked about around that time frame, 2017, 2018, I

guess, Liza was working at Oak Lawn East, correct?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· And she was also traveling to other

buildings, correct?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.· I mean, if we asked her to.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know what type of stuff she was

then doing at those other buildings?

· · · · · ·A.· Similar items in nature because, again,

her primary role was, you know, teaching, education, or

following through on special assignments.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Who made the decision to eliminate

Ms. Gray's position?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I'm sure I was heavily involved in

the decision, but -- but again, I want to be clear that

it was about moving her need out of Oak Lawn East, not

because we wouldn't have needed support in the region.

· · · · · ·Q.· Right.· So I guess if I'm understanding,

you're saying she was no longer needed to perform those
duties at Oak Lawn East, but she was needed in other

places in the region?

· · · · · ·A.· Absolutely.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· I think you said you would have

been heavily involved.· Is there anyone else who would

have been involved?

· · · · · ·A.· I would have consulted with human

resources.

· · · · · ·Q.· What about --

· · · · · ·A.· And then I would have consulted with the

facilities administrator, you know, in terms of the

need of the facility.· But I wouldn't -- to move her

and to offer a role inside the region, just like to

move her to Oak Lawn East, probably ultimately would

have fallen on me.· But I would have consulted with the

needs of buildings as well as our human resources.

· · · · · ·Q.· So do you have a specific recollection as

you sit here today of having that conversation with Ms.

Ciger?

· · · · · ·A.· I do recall talking with Kelly Ciger.

And I do recall talking with our regional human

resources director Deb Durham.

· · · · · ·Q.· So when did you talk to Ms. Ciger about

this decision?
· · · · · ·A.· Well, it would have been probably

multiple conversations on the needs of Oak Lawn East.

· · · · · ·Q.· And I guess that's when I'm asking.· When

did those occur?

· · · · · ·A.· Again, I don't know the specific time

frame prior to moving Liza or, you know, wanting to

move Liza out of Oak Lawn East.· I don't recall the

time frames that you're asking for dates.

· · · · · ·Q.· I don't need dates.· How far in advance

of eliminating the position did you have the

conversations?

· · · · · ·A.· Well, and again, I probably -- I don't

know.· Probably for, you know, some time in terms of

how were things going in the building.· So

whenever -- whenever we make the decision to move

support staff, it's -- it's probably an ongoing

conversation.· You know, how was this going or how was

that going or what is this going -- you know, what's

your time frame?· Are there vacations coming up? I

mean, so, you know, I don't -- I don't know in this

scenario if it's days, weeks, or months.· I don't know.

But we would have probably had multiple conversations

making that decision.

· · · · · ·Q.· And that's what I want to understand.
You're saying we would have probably.· I mean, did you?

Or you're just guessing that's what happened?

· · · · · ·A.· I'm sure we had a couple of

conversations, but I don't know specifically if it was

two, three, four.· I'm sure it was more than one

because I recall more than one conversation that we

were talking about what the needs of Oak Lawn East were

as we transitioned.

· · · · · ·This building went from a very challenging

building to a very successful building in, you know, a

year to a year and a half time.· I mean, and -- and

Liza was a part of that.· I mean, that building quickly

rebounded and it did very, very, very well.

· · · · · ·Q.· How is it doing today?

· · · · · ·A.· Very well.

· · · · · ·Q.· Is Ms. Ciger still the administrator at

Oak Lawn East?

· · · · · ·A.· She is not.· She is the administrator of

our Palos East facility.

· · · · · ·Q.· So in these conversations you had with

Ms. Ciger about eliminating Ms. Gray's position, would

these have been telephone calls, in person,

remote -- sorry, email?· What was your practice?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I -- I don't know.· Probably
conversations, telephone or in person.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you remember what -- well, what was

Ms. Ciger's reaction to eliminating Ms. Gray's

position?· Did she agree with it?· Did she disagree

with it?

· · · · · ·A.· Well, I'm sure she agreed with it because

it's not a position that exists in any building.· And

so when you're -- when it's on your payroll and it's

not part of your nursing department structure that's

normally there and your building has gotten to a point

where it doesn't need it anymore, I'm -- I'm sure Kelly

was very supportive of that decision to help another

building like she was helped, you know, at the time of

a building who might need help.

· · · · · ·And also to, you know, move that payroll to

another building because we have business -- we have

business needs and decisions that have to be made.

Liza was not in a nursing department role that would be

something we could, you know, put that nurse on call

for or something that we would be taking credit for,

you know, in terms of our nursing hours.· So, you know,

I'm sure that it was a mutual decision where it was

time.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you have a specific memory of Ms.
Ciger agreeing with the decision?

· · · · · ·A.· I do.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· What's your memory?

· · · · · ·A.· Well, just that it was kind of

a -- we -- we agreed that it was the right time, that

Oak Lawn East didn't need that extra level of support

anymore.

· · · · · ·Q.· Did that agreement -- your memory of that

agreement, was that an in person or a telephone

conversation?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, I -- I don't recall.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· When did it take place?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall.· Again, prior to the

decision of talking to Liza.

· · · · · ·Q.· Who was it on that call or in that

meeting?· Was it just you and her?· Were there other

people there?

· · · · · ·A.· And again, I -- I do know Deb Durham was

involved in these conversations.· I don't recall if she

was with us together or they were separate

conversations.

· · · · · ·Q.· And what did Ms. Ciger specifically say

about the decision to eliminate Ms. Gray's position?

· · · · · ·A.· Again, I'm not -- I don't know what she
specifically said, but I know that we were in agreement

that it was time for her to go somewhere else because

Oak Lawn East had really developed and was doing quite

well.

· · · · · ·Q.· And who was to deliver that message to

Ms. Gray?· Was it to you or Ms. Ciger?

· · · · · ·A.· You know, I don't remember who initially

delivered the message.· I do remember sitting down and

one conversation with Liza.· But -- but I don't know if

that was the initial conversation or the second

conversation.· I -- I don't recall.

· · · · · ·Q.· I mean, just normally in the way you do

business as an RDO, who would deliver that news?· Would

it be the person's direct supervisor or it would come

from you or HR or someone else?

· · · · · ·A.· You know, oftentimes I would be involved

in those conversations, you know, depending upon, you

know, if there was something else going on in the

region.· You know, I trust my administrators implicitly

to help and support, you know, where need be.

· · · · · ·So you know, I didn't anticipate this being

anything but a normal business conversation so

I -- I -- I don't -- I don't -- I don't recall if I

would have said I had to be there or I wouldn't have
had to be there.· You know, at some point in time I

know I was there for a meeting.

· · · · · ·Q.· With Ms. Gray?

· · · · · ·A.· Correct.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· I think you said you talked to HR

prior to eliminating the position, as well; is that

right?

· · · · · ·A.· At some point in time we had a

conversation with Deb, yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· That's Deb Durham?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Again, any idea of when that

conversation took place?

· · · · · ·A.· I just don't recall.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know how many conversations it

was?· Was it one or more than one?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall.

· · · · · ·Q.· Would those have been email, phone calls,

meetings?

· · · · · ·A.· They probably would have been verbal

conversations.· I don't know if they would have been in

person or over the phone.

· · · · · ·Q.· And when a decision is made, for example,

to eliminate a position like Ms. Gray, is that
documented anywhere?· Is there kind of like a memo or

anything like that created?

· · · · · ·A.· Again, I recall a letter in this

scenario.· But this is a very unique scenario because

of the, you know, position where Ms. Gray was in as a

nurse -- a regional nurse for quite some time, I mean,

as long as I had known her.· So you know, there isn't

other -- a lot of other positions that exist like this.

In fact, it's the only one I believe I've had.

· · · · · ·Q.· Just so I understand, though, so the

letter you said you think went to Ms. Gray was a letter

informing her of the decision?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't remember if it was supplemental

support of -- you know, or primary.· I don't remember.

I remember a letter.

· · · · · ·Q.· And I guess what I'm trying to understand

is that there's something before that, you know, and

you know, that's what I'm thinking about is there's

some sort of a justification memo or something making

the business case for why or why not her position

should be eliminated?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't -- I don't believe there's a

document, no.

· · · · · ·Q.· When you talked to HR -- so when you
talked to Ms. Durham, I understand you don't know when

that occurred but do you recall how far in advance of

Ms. Gray's position eliminated that occurred?· Was it a

week?· Was it a month?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· I don't.· So again, when -- when

we're making decisions of what buildings need, you

know, it could be a day's notice.· It could be a month.

It could be, you know -- you know, today I could be

going to Oak Lawn and tomorrow I could say oh, shoot, I

need to, you know, completely change that.· So you

know, I'd be speculating on what was happening in the

region at the time for business needs.

· · · · · ·Q.· And there's no documentary record by

which we could figure that out?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· All right.· Are you aware of any

documents in the world that could help us show when

this conversation with HR occurred?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· And same question -- any document in the

world that would show us when you talked to Ms. Ciger

about eliminating Ms. Gray's position?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· When you talked to HR prior to Ms. Gray's
position being eliminated, did Ms. Durham say anything

about Ms. Gray having a disability?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Did she say anything about Ms. Gray

needing an accommodation?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· At what point in time did you become

aware that Ms. Gray had a disability?

· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· I'm going to object.· Assumes

facts not in evidence.

· · · · · ·Go ahead and answer.

· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I became aware after the

conversation that we were going to be moving Ms. Gray

from Oak Lawn East and offering her to please go to Elk

Grove because that's where we needed assistance at.

BY MR. WHITE:

· · · · · ·Q.· You said a conversation.· Was this just a

conversation with you and Ms. Gray?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall.· I think Kelly was there,

but I'm not certain.

· · · · · ·Q.· And apart from you, Ms. Gray, and maybe

Ms. Ciger, was anyone else there?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you remember it being an in-person
conversation or a phone call?

· · · · · ·A.· I remember one in-person conversation.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So we kind of already covered

this, but at some point in time you had a conversation

with Ms. Gray about eliminating her position, correct?

· · · · · ·A.· Well, at Oak Lawn East and not having a

need for it at that time and, you know, needing her at

Elk Grove.· I mean, I actually even specifically recall

saying something like, you know, this went very well at

Oak Lawn East.· Now we need to go do this at another

facility.

· · · · · ·Q.· When did that conversation occur?

· · · · · ·A.· Again, I don't know.

· · · · · ·Q.· 2017?· 2018?· Any idea?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I don't know.· At the time

between -- and again, I don't remember the exact time

frame, but sometime during this time, again, I

mentioned that I had South Chicago.· So at that time,

when I originally took it, I had multiple facilities in

South Chicago and then we were divesting several

facilities after that -- excuse me.

· · · · · ·And so once we started divesting

facilities -- and again, that would have been somewhere

2017 to 2018, then -- I apologize.
· · · · · ·Q.· No problem.

· · · · · ·A.· Two phones, so I'm turning my second

ringer off.

· · · · · ·Q.· Peter's texting you on both with all the

secrets.

· · · · · ·A.· All right.· I --

· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· We already agreed not to do

that, Ethan.

· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I did.

· · · · · · · · · (Simultaneous speech.)

· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I apologize.· It's interesting

though.· It says spam likely, which is very cool.

· · · · · ·So sometime between 2017 to '18, the region

changed where we were going from two regions to one

region.· So Elk Grove was not -- was probably newer at

the time, you know, because it's not something I

managed initially.

· · · · · ·So again, sometime between 2017 -- near the

end of 2017, beginning of 2018, you know, the regions

were changing and we were divesting, and so there was a

lot going on in terms of changes of assignments and

buildings for me.

BY MR. WHITE:

· · · · · ·Q.· But we don't know -- as you sit here
today, we don't know how far after that time frame the

decision was made to eliminate Liza?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't.· But I know that that is heavily

integrated into part of this because, again, the region

changed.· I didn't have the assignments of anything

north of Hinsdale, and then I received those

assignments.

· · · · · ·So again, you know, this is all an evolving

process in the region.

· · · · · ·Q.· So we don't know -- so you don't know, I

guess I should say, as we sit here today, how far after

this process you had a conversation with Liza, actually

eliminating the position?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't know.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.

· · · · · ·A.· But I can tell you that it was associated

with this new part of the assignments that had

happened.· But again, I don't know if that was one

month or six months.· I -- I don't know.· It was a

fairly new time frame in my tenure of running, you

know, a different number of buildings.

· · · · · ·Q.· And so I make -- I want to make sure I

understand, so you recall -- and tell me if I've got it

wrong.· You recall a phone conversation with Ms. Gray
and then an in-person meeting or not?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· I do not.· I recall an in-person

meeting, but I would have had multiple -- well, let me

back up.

· · · · · ·Specific to Liza, I do not recall a -- a

phone conversation.· But I would have had, you know,

maybe regional calls with all of our regional team

members, as well, and/or meetings, you know, with the

changes in the region, what's going to be happening,

what the region's going to look like.· I mean, we would

have communicated that all over the region to support

staff -- regional staff, administrative staff.

· · · · · ·Q.· And would those communications have said,

you know, specifically, Liza Gray's position is being

eliminated and she's being transferred?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· But we would have been telling

different people at different times, like, you know

our -- our geography's going to change.· Our support's

going to change.· Our needs are going to change in the

region.

· · · · · ·Q.· And if I understand you, those are more

being communicated at a high level in terms of not

specific names or positions or anything like that?

· · · · · ·A.· Right.· Correct.
· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Do you recall any communications

specifically about Ms. Gray's position being

eliminated?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· All right.· So you don't recall a

phone call.· You do recall an in-person meeting with

Ms. Gray --

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· -- and maybe Ms. Ciger; is that right?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you remember where that meeting took

place?

· · · · · ·A.· At Oak Lawn East.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Well, let me just ask, what did

you say to Ms. Gray and what did she say to you in that

meeting?

· · · · · ·A.· We -- I -- I remember that we talked

about the decision and what we needed from her.· Again,

I specifically remember the -- me saying something of,

you know, this went very well.· We don't have a need

here.· We have needs in other buildings that aren't

doing quite as well.

· · · · · ·I specifically remember, you know, at that

time -- at that conversation that Ms. Gray then said I
don't know if I can drive that far.· I'm going to have

to take an FMLA.· And that's when I was informed that

she wasn't sure she could drive that far and that she

would have to take an FMLA.

· · · · · ·Q.· When you told her, you know, that we no

longer need you in this building, we need you somewhere

else, did she seem surprised?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.· Because I think she was attached to

Oak Lawn East, which is not uncommon in our industry.

Sometimes you become attached or not attached to

certain buildings or certain people that you want to

work with.

· · · · · ·Q.· Did she express her, I guess,

disagreement with the decision to eliminate her

position?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I remember her being attached and

wanting to stay at Oak Lawn East, and we said well, we

don't -- we -- again, I'm not saying there's not work

to do, that there's always plenty of work to be done,

but it does not -- there's not a needed job for you to

do here compared to where that -- the job would be

needed elsewhere as a business decision.

· · · · · ·Q.· So she was no longer needed at Oak Lawn

East.· She was needed in Elk Grove Village; is that
right?

· · · · · ·A.· At that time that was probably the

priority, and I remember specifically it being Elk

Grove.

· · · · · ·Q.· Would you agree that for Ms. Gray that

would have been a longer commute?

· · · · · ·A.· I remember her telling me it would be a

longer commute, and that wouldn't surprise me, correct.

· · · · · ·Q.· Why would it not surprise you?

· · · · · ·A.· Because she had -- like a lot of us when

the regions were two regions, she came out of the south

region initially.

· · · · · ·Q.· What do you mean by that?

· · · · · ·A.· Meaning, you know, most of her tenure

with the company she had -- again, that wasn't anywhere

we had ever gone to before because Elk Grove had not

been part of that region before.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Do you know where Ms. Gray was

living in 2018?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't specifically know the town, no.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Do you know how long her commute

was to Elk Grove Village in 2018?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know how long her commute would
have been to -- sorry.· I already asked you that.· But

do you know how long her commute was to Oak Lawn East

in 2018?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I don't.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· I mean, is it safe to say you

don't really know where she lives so you don't know how

long any of her commutes would be?

· · · · · ·A.· Yeah.· I mean, I -- I don't -- again, no.

I -- I don't.· Elk Grove isn't -- isn't terrible for

any of us usually.· So usually the only buildings I get

complaints about are, like, our north north, like

Libertyville Building.· So you know, no.· I don't.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you commute to the same place every

morning --

· · · · · ·A.· I don't.

· · · · · ·Q.· -- to one place, I guess I should say

pre-pandemic?· Okay.· Do you ever go to Elk Grove

Village?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· How often do you go to Elk Grove Village?

· · · · · ·A.· As needed, but I mean, I go to -- I try

to at least monthly go to all of our facilities.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Where do you live?· I don't need

the address.· I just need the town.
· · · · · ·A.· Sure.· I live in Downers Grove.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And how long does it take you to

get from Downers Grove to Elk Grove Village in the

morning -- on an average morning?

· · · · · ·A.· That could be 30, 40 minutes.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And there's -- presumably, it's

Chicagoland so there's times when it's a lot worse than

that?

· · · · · ·A.· Depends.· We're -- we can be flexible,

you know, depending upon time.· And I'm sure that we've

been flexible with Liza's time numerous times.· So

anybody in a regional role, you know, that's not

assigned to a start or an end time at a building, we

would be flexible on time to support Chicago traffic.

That's -- that's kind of common knowledge.

· · · · · ·Q.· Prior to Ms. Gray's position being

eliminated, was she regularly going to Elk Grove

Village?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know if she ever went to Elk Grove

Village?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, I don't know.

· · · · · ·Q.· So at the time you're telling Ms. Gray we

no longer need you in Oak Lawn -- getting confused with
all the suburbs here -- with Oak Lawn, was she needed

at any other building besides Elk Grove Village?

· · · · · ·A.· Potentially.· I mean, absolutely it could

have been potentially.· I just remember at the time the

next assignment would have been Elk Grove based on

needs going on and how well it went at Oak Lawn East,

but potentially.

· · · · · ·Q.· I mean, potentially, had you talked

to -- bless you -- had you talked to other buildings in

the region about using Ms. Gray?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, I don't know.· I mean, you know,

again, I talk to buildings about needs all the time in

terms of their needs, you know, how many open positions

they have.· You know, at the time that -- that Liza

went to Oak Lawn East, we didn't have a full complement

of nursing positions.· So I had a budgetary ability to

put Liza there to help support the building from a

business need.

· · · · · ·At the time that we were asking Liza and we

didn't need her at Oak Lawn East anymore, I had a full

complement of nursing leadership and I didn't have a

budgetary ability to support that.· So I'm sure the

decision would have also been made by, you know, who

has a budgetary ability to support, you know, another
nursing manager with a higher salary.

· · · · · ·Q.· It sounds like you're kind of speculating

on that though, I mean.· Do you have a specific memory

of talking to --

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, no.· I'm not speculating on that

because that's how we make decisions.· That's how I

make decisions all the time.

· · · · · ·Q.· So at the time Ms. Gray's position was

eliminated, what other open positions were available in

the region?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, I can't -- I cannot specifically tell

you what was open or not open at that time.· But I'm

sure -- I'm -- I'm confident that I would have picked a

building that we had an open need to help support that.

That is how I make those decisions.

· · · · · ·Q.· Would there have been -- was there an

open need at any building closer to Oak Lawn East at

that time?

· · · · · ·A.· I'm sure I made the decision based on the

need and the opening that needed it the most.· I don't

know.· I don't know.

· · · · · ·Q.· And I guess that's what I'm trying to

figure out.· Do you know if there was an open position

at any building closer to Oak Lawn East?
· · · · · ·A.· I don't know.· I mean, if I made the

decision to go to Elk Grove, that's where the budgetary

need and opening was.

· · · · · ·Q.· As you sit here today, do you recall

talking to other buildings closer to Oak Lawn East

about using Ms. Gray?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, I don't recall.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall.· I -- I know where all of

the openings are and -- and what our building's needs

are.

· · · · · ·Q.· And that's what I'm asking.· If you know,

then what were they?· What were the open positions?

· · · · · ·A.· Meaning at the time.· Like today, I could

sit here and give you today's needs.· At that time, I

would have been able to do the same.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· But as you sit here, you don't

even know what time frame that was, correct?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· I don't.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.

· · · · · ·MR. WHITE:· Everybody okay?· Do you need a

break?· We've been going about an hour.

· · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· I'm okay.

· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· Can we take like maybe a
five-minute break?

· · · · · ·MR. WHITE:· That's fine.· Yeah.

· · · · · ·Let's go off the record for five minutes.

· · · · · ·(Off the record.)

· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· Ready if you guys are.

· · · · · ·MR. WHITE:· Yep.

· · · · · ·Ms. Lube, are you ready?

· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Uh-huh (affirmative).

· · · · · ·MR. WHITE:· Okay.· Back on the record.

BY MR. WHITE:

· · · · · ·Q.· Ma'am, we took a short break there.· You

understand you're still under oath?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· And did you talk to anybody about your

testimony while we were on a break?

· · · · · ·A.· I did not.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Great.· All right, Ms. Lube, we

were talking about Ms. Gray's position being eliminated

and her being, I guess, transferred to Elk Grove

Village; do you remember that?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· At that time, I think you said you would

have known, you know, what other positions were open at

that time, but apart from your knowledge, was it
documented anywhere?· I mean, was there, like, an open

positions report or anything like that?

· · · · · ·A.· I mean, we keep open positions reports,

certainly, but most of our open position reports are

direct line staff.· I don't know if at the time we kept

reports for managerial open positions.

· · · · · ·Q.· You could have or could not have; you

just don't know?

· · · · · ·A.· Correct.

· · · · · ·Q.· And that's the kind of position that

would have been available for Ms. Gray as a managerial

position?

· · · · · ·A.· Correct.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So getting back to this, I guess,

in-person meeting with you and Ms. Gray, you tell her

there's no longer a need for her at Oak Lawn East, and

I think you said she told you she couldn't drive all

the way to Elk Grove Village; is that correct?

· · · · · ·A.· Correct.· And then she also said she

would be taking an FMLA.

· · · · · ·Q.· All right.· Did she tell you in that

conversation that the doctors had recently discovered a

tumor in her spine?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall the nature of what
specifically she had said, but she said that she had

had some new medical information that was -- she was

looking into.· And so I remember we specifically said

then we need to have you get this taken care of

and -- and let us know what's going on, so.

· · · · · ·But I -- I don't specifically remember that

she had anything.· I remember she said she had been

undergoing some new doctor's appointments and needed to

get this looked into, but I don't specifically remember

what.

· · · · · ·Q.· So you don't remember if she said she had

a tumor in her spine?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I don't specifically remember the

nature of what she needed to go on FMLA for. I

remember she said she needed to look into some items

going on with her.

· · · · · ·Q.· Did she tell you that she had recently

submitted a doctor's note regarding her need to sit and

stand frequently?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· Unh-unh (negative).

· · · · · ·Q.· Did she give you any details about how

much time she could sit or stand?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Did you understand in that conversation
that she was asking you for an accommodation?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· She told you that she could only sit or

stand for 15 minutes at a time, correct?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· I don't --

· · · · · ·Q.· You --

· · · · · ·A.· -- recall any -- any of that.· I remember

recalling that she had to go out on an FMLA because she

had some new stuff that she had to get looked into.

· · · · · ·Q.· You don't recall her saying she could sit

or stand for 15 minutes or it did not happen?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I -- I don't -- I don't believe that

happened, no.· There was no restrictions given

into -- at any time in our conversations.

· · · · · ·Q.· Your testimony is she never said she

couldn't sit or stand for more than 15 minutes?

· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· I'm going to object.· Asked and

answered.

· · · · · ·Go ahead and answer again.

· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No.

BY MR. WHITE:

· · · · · ·Q.· But you don't know when this conversation

occurred, correct?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I don't remember the specifics of
it, but no.· I -- I -- I -- there was no restrictions

given of any kind.

· · · · · ·Q.· And you don't recall even who was

attending this meeting, right?

· · · · · ·A.· I remember that it was with Kelly, and I

don't remember if it was with Deb is what I said.

· · · · · ·Q.· And so you're saying now you have a

specific recollection of Kelly Ciger being at the

meeting?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.· I said I believe Kelly was there.

· · · · · ·Q.· Well, that's what I'm trying to figure

out.· There's a difference between believing she was

there and testifying she was there.· Was she there or

not?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.· I believe so.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· What time of year was this?

· · · · · ·A.· Gosh, I don't recall.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And where -- did the meeting take

place at Oak Lawn East?

· · · · · ·A.· At Oak Lawn East.

· · · · · ·Q.· Yeah.· In what room?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, the administrator's office.

· · · · · ·Q.· Is there any document in the world that

reflects this meeting?
· · · · · ·A.· I -- I believe the only document that I

know of is the one I referenced earlier.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· What was your response to finding

out -- or Ms. Gray telling you she couldn't drive all

the way to Elk Grove Village?

· · · · · ·A.· Well, so again, in the conversation when

she said that she also said that she had this other

medical stuff going on.· So my response was, well, if

you're going to need to go on an FMLA, we'll support

you during your FMLA and let us know, you know, what

your needs are.· And that was kind of the end of it

because she immediately needed to go take a leave of

absence related to these other medicals.

· · · · · ·Q.· Did you follow up with HR after this

conversation with Ms. Gray?

· · · · · ·A.· In terms of?

· · · · · ·Q.· Anything?

· · · · · ·A.· Well, when somebody goes out on an FMLA,

I would expect HR to follow up on our standard

procedures of follow-up.

· · · · · ·Q.· When did Ms. Gray apply for FMLA leave?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- whenever that conversation happened.

I assumed at the same time.

· · · · · ·Q.· No.· But I'm asking when did she actually
apply for an FMLA?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, I -- I mean, I don't know the date.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Do you know when she

started -- went out on FMLA leave?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't know the date.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know who was involved in the

decision to grant or deny FMLA leave?

· · · · · ·A.· I mean, we would always send -- you know,

granting of FMLA through HR.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Did you have anything to do with

the FMLA process?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't, no.

· · · · · ·Q.· Did you direct Ms. Gray to the forms to

complete for FMLA leave?

· · · · · ·A.· I would have directed her to HR --

· · · · · ·Q.· And did you direct her in that meeting to

talk to HR?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall specifically, but I

probably did.

· · · · · ·Q.· When Ms. Gray said she couldn't drive to

Elk Grove Village, you did not take that as a request

for an accommodation?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know what a request for
accommodation is?

· · · · · ·A.· I'm sorry?

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know what a request for

accommodation is?

· · · · · ·A.· I do.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· What does it mean to you?

· · · · · ·A.· Well, typically a request for an

accommodation comes from a formal note with specific

requirements outlined.

· · · · · ·Q.· Did you ask Ms. Gray if she had such a

formal note?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· Because at the time she said she was

working through a medical process.· That was the first

that we had discussed it.

· · · · · ·Q.· What did she tell you about the medical

process?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall the specifics.· I remember

her saying she had some more follow-up to do and that's

why she needed time off.

· · · · · ·Q.· Did she tell you what part of her body

was affected?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· I mean -- I mean, possibly.· I mean,

I remember her telling me she couldn't sit for that

long due to her back, so I guess yes, the back.
· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Did she tell you what was wrong

with her back?

· · · · · ·A.· Not specifically.· I don't recall, no.

· · · · · ·Q.· Did you ask any questions about her back?

· · · · · ·A.· I mean, I -- when people need to go out

on an FMLA, I -- I really try to make sure that I

always -- I'm very respectful of somebody's privacy.

So I would have said I hope things are okay.· I hope

things are -- I mean, that's my standard nature.· So I

probably didn't pry too much because I wouldn't have

wanted to invade anybody's privacy.

· · · · · ·Q.· Did you ask her how her back problem

affected her ability to get to Elk Grove Village?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- if -- again, I recall that our

conversation ended because she needed to go out on an

FMLA.· So we stopped the conversation.

· · · · · ·Q.· So the conversation, you tell her her

position's being eliminated, you need her in Elk Grove

Village, and you're saying she said I'm taking FMLA,

and that was the end of the conversation?

· · · · · ·A.· That was kind of how that went, yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Did Ms. Ciger say anything in this

meeting?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall her saying a lot.· I -- so
I don't -- I don't recall.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you remember when Ms. Ciger was out in

any of her vacation for 2018?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you -- I apologize if I asked this.

· · · · · ·Did you talk to HR about Ms. Gray's FMLA

leave after that meeting?

· · · · · ·A.· In terms of?

· · · · · ·Q.· That it was going to be coming, that she

needs FMLA leave, anything like that?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, I remember telling Deb that she

needs -- it's -- to support an FMLA, yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· And when did that conversation occur?

· · · · · ·A.· After the conversation with Ms. Gray.

· · · · · ·Q.· How long after?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, probably shortly after.

· · · · · ·Q.· Like a couple weeks?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh gosh, no.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· All right.· At the end of your meeting,

did you tell Ms. Gray she needed to make a decision

about the Elk Grove Village position?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· Because we discussed and we left it

open-ended with FMLA and to let us know when she would

be returning.
· · · · · ·Q.· Well, did she tell you she was going out

for any particular period of time?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· She did not know because she said

she had to further work a process.

· · · · · ·Q.· But she hadn't even applied for FMLA yet,

right?

· · · · · ·A.· Again, it was the first conversation that

we -- I had heard about it.

· · · · · ·Q.· Have you ever seen a doctor's note from

Ms. Gray's treaters regarding her back condition?

· · · · · ·A.· I have not.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Even through today, you have not

seen that?

· · · · · ·A.· I have not.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Okay.· So Ms. Gray did not take

the Elk Grove Village position, correct?

· · · · · ·A.· Again, it was left open-ended because she

went on FMLA.

· · · · · ·Q.· Well, she was eventually terminated

though, correct?

· · · · · ·A.· I believe she was eventually terminated

for not returning from her FMLA.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And when did that occur?

· · · · · ·A.· Again, I don't know --
· · · · · ·Q.· Were you involved --

· · · · · ·A.· -- the time frame.

· · · · · ·Q.· Were you involved in that decision?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I may have been consulted on it, but

I mean, it's -- it's pretty black and white policy when

somebody -- you know, we have a standard of how many

times we should be reaching out, lack of response, how

long somebody's been out for, so that's not something

that is -- you know.· I know she was left on employment

for a substantial amount of time.

· · · · · ·Q.· How long?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't know.

· · · · · ·Q.· Six months?· A year?· No idea?

· · · · · ·A.· Probably at least 6 months -- somewhere

between 6 and 12 months.· A substantial amount of time.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know when she was actually, I

guess, quote/unquote, taken off the books?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.

· · · · · ·A.· I do not.

· · · · · ·Q.· And you're, I think, kind of describing

your role generally in the termination, but do you

recall any specifics about the decision to end Ms.

Gray's employment?
· · · · · ·A.· Again, I remember this being a very

policy-driven -- you know, we have not heard back from

her, you know, in terms of returning from FMLA.

· · · · · ·Q.· Who said that?· We have not heard back

from her?

· · · · · ·A.· I believe Deb, but I'm not certain.

· · · · · ·Q.· But you recall somebody specifically

saying we have not heard back from her?

· · · · · ·A.· I believe that that -- yeah.· I mean,

we -- she wasn't coming back from FMLA.

· · · · · ·Q.· Sorry.· But to me those are two very

different things.· Saying she's not -- we have not

heard back is very different than saying she's not

coming back from FMLA, so --

· · · · · ·A.· Oh.· You know, I apologize.· I'm -- I'm

not certain which one.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Ultimately, who would have made

the decision to end Ms. Gray's employment?· Would that

have been, as you said, just policy driven through HR

or would you have had to have final sign-off on that?

· · · · · ·A.· I mean, again, I think because it's

policy driven, I'm not sure if I would have approved it

or not.· But it's pretty -- I mean, this is a pretty

standard policy.· You know, we would want to support
any -- any employee who was out on an FMLA, so I -- I

don't know.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know if any other options were

discussed with Ms. Gray in terms of continuing to work

rather than going on FMLA?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· There wasn't because Liza made it

very clear that she had taken FMLA.

· · · · · ·Q.· When did she make this very clear?

· · · · · ·A.· In that conversation.

· · · · · ·Q.· The in-person meeting?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Is that the first time you had

talked to Ms. Gray about FMLA?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know who ended up filling that

role, if anybody, at Elk Grove Village?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· So again, Liza's role was a

nurse -- you know, she was like a nurse educator, so

we -- we didn't specifically necessarily -- it wasn't

kind of a one for one.

· · · · · ·Q.· What do you mean by that?

· · · · · ·A.· Meaning that if -- if

we -- her -- if -- we just probably continued to

support with anybody else that we had in the region.
Or if we hired somebody permanently to the position of,

you know, nursing management.

· · · · · ·Q.· So if I understand you, maybe nobody

filled that position at Elk Grove Village?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't know.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Did you propose any alternatives

to Liza other than going out on FMLA?

· · · · · ·A.· Well, I didn't propose FMLA.· She

informed us she was going on FMLA, so I wouldn't

propose -- I would never propose an alternative if

somebody needs to have their medical situation looked

into.

· · · · · ·Q.· What exactly did she say about needing

FMLA?

· · · · · ·A.· She said that she had some new items

going on and that she needed to go out on medical leave

to get them taken care of.

· · · · · ·Q.· And is that a direct quote?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Did she tell you what the new

items were?

· · · · · ·A.· Again, specifically, she may have.

I -- I don't -- I don't know the specifics.

· · · · · ·Q.· Did she tell you that she could travel to
any other building in the region apart from Elk Grove

East [sic] to continue working?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· Because again, it was -- she told me

she needed to go out on FMLA, so the conversation kind

of ended because she needed to take an FMLA.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· She didn't ask you about other

positions at other buildings?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· And she didn't tell you that she could

commute less than a half an hour?

· · · · · ·A.· Again, I -- I mean, I remember part of

the conversation, saying, you know, is -- is this the

only position I have available and I said -- I remember

saying that this is the position we have available

today.· But I don't remember if it was specific to Liza

or in general.

· · · · · ·Q.· What do you mean this is the position we

have today?· It wasn't available after today?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· No.· Meaning our needs shift and

that's where we had a need at the time.

· · · · · ·Q.· Got it.· So the day after there could

have been a different position that there was a need

for?

· · · · · ·A.· I mean, probably not the day after, but I
mean, someone could resign, absolutely.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· But you guys didn't talk about any

other potential positions, just the Elk Grove Village?

· · · · · ·A.· We talked about the Elk Grove position

and then Liza needed to take an FMLA.· And that's my

recollection of the conversation.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Is it possible she said she could

have commuted to other locations?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- maybe.· I just know that it wouldn't

have mattered because she needed to take an FMLA.· She

made that very clear in the conversation.· So the focus

was Liza going out on leave at that point in time.

· · · · · ·Q.· Are you aware of any documents that came

out of that meeting?· You know, meeting minutes,

summary notes, anything like that?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· I mean, you didn't send an email to HR

saying Liza's going to need FMLA, correct?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall if I did or did not. I

remember telling HR that she would need it.· I don't

know how I communicated it.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Do you know if Ms. Gray applied

for unemployment insurance after her employment ended?

· · · · · ·A.· I'm not -- I don't believe that I would
be made aware of that so possibly.· I'm not sure.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· You don't know one way or another?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know if she even did apply for

unemployment?

· · · · · ·A.· I think HR might have told me she did.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And that was --

· · · · · ·A.· But that would go through HR.

· · · · · ·Q.· And when did you find out she got

unemployment?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't know.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you remember the year?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you remember who from HR told you?

· · · · · ·A.· Deb would have probably communicated.

· · · · · ·Q.· Why would you be told that a former

employee's getting unemployment?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't know.

· · · · · ·Q.· You have no idea why Deb would tell you

that?

· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· Objection.· Asked and answered.

· · · · · ·You can go ahead and answer.

· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No.· I mean, the scenario,

again, was unique where she didn't return from FMLA, so
you know, probably had something to do with that.

BY MR. WHITE:

· · · · · ·Q.· As you sit here today, though, do you

actually know or you're just kind of speculating?

· · · · · ·A.· I'm not -- I'm not confident.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· What was your reaction to finding

out Ms. Gray got unemployment?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't know.· I don't know.· I don't

know what my reaction was.· Maybe -- I mean I --

· · · · · ·Q.· Positive?· Negative?

· · · · · ·A.· I remember being surprised that she

never -- you know, that we never got further

communication of her return from FMLA, at least I did

not, so you know.

· · · · · ·Q.· Would it be typical that an employee

would communicate with the RDO regarding their return

from FMLA?

· · · · · ·A.· Depending upon the scenario, you know,

potentially.· You know, that -- either myself or Deb

would have been communicated with.· And again,

she -- you know, Liza worked for us for a long time.

· · · · · ·Q.· How do you know that Ms. Gray did not

communicate with Ms. Durham during that time period?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, I don't.
· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.

· · · · · ·A.· I mean --

· · · · · ·Q.· Because we don't even -- we don't even

know what period of time she was on FMLA, right?

· · · · · ·A.· Yeah.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.

· · · · · ·A.· Quite some time, but no.· I don't know

the specific time frame.

· · · · · ·Q.· We don't even know the year, right?

· · · · · ·A.· I apologize.· I don't -- I'm -- I -- I

really don't know all the specific dates.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Do you know if ManorCare opposed

Ms. Gray's unemployment -- her application for

unemployment benefits?

· · · · · ·A.· I do not know.

· · · · · ·Q.· Were you involved in any -- in Ms. Gray's

application for unemployment benefits at all?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know, ultimately, if Ms. Gray even

received unemployment?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I don't.

· · · · · ·MR. WHITE:· Okay.· I apologize.· I want to

try and quickly find a document just to kind of

short-circuit something.· So can we go off for five
minutes?

· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· Yeah.· Absolutely.

· · · · · ·MR. WHITE:· Okay.

· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Sure.

· · · · · ·MR. WHITE:· All right.

· · · · · ·(Off the record.)

· · · · · ·MR. WHITE:· Okay.· Back on the record.

BY MR. WHITE:

· · · · · ·Q.· All right.· Ms. Lube, you understand

you're still under oath?

· · · · · ·A.· I do.

· · · · · ·Q.· And you didn't talk to anybody about your

testimony while we were on that break, correct?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· I'm going to drop an exhibit into

the chat.

· · · · · ·A.· Okay.

· · · · · ·Q.· I didn't have this one prepared before,

and I'm so sorry, but this should be fine.· And we

should be able to -- it's just a PDF.· Everybody should

be able to click on it and then access it.

· · · · · ·Did that show up for you, Ms. Lube?

· · · · · ·A.· I can see the PDF.· I'm just trying to

open it.
· · · · · ·Q.· Yeah.· No.· Take your time.· It may take

a second.

· · · · · ·A.· It keeps trying to say "save as."

· · · · · ·Q.· Sometimes it goes to, like, your

downloads folder or something like that.

· · · · · ·A.· Well, it -- so it goes to my save as

folder.· And I can't save it, and it won't let me open

it.

· · · · · ·Q.· All right.· I can probably just share my

screen.· It might be easier.

· · · · · ·A.· It just says I don't have permission to

save it, and it's not giving me an "open" option.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Let me share my screen here.· Let

me know if you can --

· · · · · ·A.· I think I just -- yeah.· Oh, maybe that's

your document.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you see --

· · · · · ·A.· Like maybe it opened at the same time.

Yep.· I can see it.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Let me see if I can do this.

Okay.

· · · · · ·So do you see an email, looks like it's from

Oak Lawn East, 458, Jones, Sharon.

· · · · · ·A.· I do.
· · · · · ·Q.· And this is -- I'll represent to

you -- this is a document that was produced to us in

this litigation.· It is Bates stamped, Gray 000222

through 224.· I don't think so, but I'll ask the

question:· Have you seen this document before?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Who is Sharon Jones?

· · · · · ·A.· At the time, she was the human resources

director of our Oak Lawn East facility.

· · · · · ·Q.· And maybe I'm confused.· I thought that

was Deb Durham?

· · · · · ·A.· Deb is the regional director --

· · · · · ·Q.· Got it.· Got it.· So Ms. Jones was in

charge of HR for Oak Lawn East?· Ms. Durham was in

charge for the whole region?

· · · · · ·A.· Correct.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And this email is to a Melissa

Sternreich (ph).· Do you know who that is?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And it looks like in the next

email down in this chain, Melissa, based on her email

address, works for somebody called Barnett Associates.

Do you have any idea what that company is?

· · · · · ·A.· I think they handle unemployment.
· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· All right.· I just want to kind of

read through this email.

· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· And Ethan, I'm just going

to -- just to get it out of the way.· I'm just going to

say, you know, I object to the extent that we're asking

the witness to testify around a document that she's

never seen or authored.· But you can go ahead and

answer Mr. White's questions as he asks them, Diane.

BY MR. WHITE:

· · · · · ·Q.· So in the second sentence, this says, "On

June 18, 2018, a conversation between Liza Gray and

Diane Lube, regional director of operations,

too" -- presumably that's took -- "place, explaining

that her position was being eliminated due to the needs

of the building."· Do you see that sentence?

· · · · · ·A.· I see it.

· · · · · ·Q.· Is that the meeting that we've been

talking about, the in-person meeting that we've been

talking about previously?

· · · · · ·A.· I'd assume so.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And it says, "Liza Gray was

offered to be transferred to another facility and

refused the assignment, stating that it was too far of

a job."· Does that sentence match your recollection of
the meeting?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· Because again, at that time, Liza

stated that it was too far and that she had to go on

FMLA.· I would never -- I probably wouldn't

characterize it as a refusal or a lack of refusal.· It

was, this is too far, and by the way, I have to do

that.· That's my recollection of it.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you have any idea where Ms. Jones

would have gotten this information?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't -- I don't know.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you remember talking to Ms. Jones

about --

· · · · · ·A.· I do not remember talking to Sharon about

it.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· -- about the meeting?· Okay.

· · · · · ·If Sharon didn't get it -- sorry, if Ms.

Jones didn't get it from you, do you have any idea

where she would've gotten the information?

· · · · · ·A.· She would've -- Sharon would've reported

--

· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· I'm going to object.· It calls

for speculation.· But you can go ahead and answer.

· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Okay.· So Sharon would have

reported to Kelly Ciger, and then Deb Durham would be
her consultant.· And they both were involved in knowing

what was happening.· Because like I had explained

earlier, technically Liza was on Oak Lawn East payroll.

And she had -- but because she had done so much

regional support, you know, I was involved and Deb was

involved in supporting all of this.· So -- so Deb or

Kelly.

BY MR. WHITE:

· · · · · ·Q.· And this email continues, "June 18th was

Liza last day of work, where she went home early due to

said conversation."· First of all, do you know if Ms.

Gray went home early on the day of your meeting?

· · · · · ·A.· I remember her saying she had to start

her leave immediately, so -- I don't -- I don't recall

if that was early or not.· And I don't recall what time

of day the conversation took place at.· But I

absolutely remember her saying she had to start

immediately.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So this email -- or this is about

a discussion on June 18th.· It says, "On July 13th,

2018, Liza was placed on FMLA due to a medical

condition."· Do you see that?

· · · · · ·A.· I do.

· · · · · ·Q.· Is it your understanding -- well, I guess
I already asked you.· I apologize.

· · · · · ·You don't have any idea when Ms. Gray

actually went on FMLA, right?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· I asked you a couple times or you

told me a couple times about a letter you think exists

that documents the end of Ms. Gray's employment.· Do

you remember talking about that?

· · · · · ·A.· I do.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you have any idea what that letter

says?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't specifically.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know when it was dated?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know who wrote it?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall if I wrote it or if I

authored it or if I was involved in it or if I -- I

don't.· I just don't.

· · · · · ·Q.· And if you had, you know, wrote it or

been involved in it in any way, would you still have a

copy of it somewhere?

· · · · · ·A.· If I -- if I was involved in it in any

way, I would have turned it in to HR for her employment

file.
· · · · · ·Q.· I guess another way of asking is, if it's

not in the personnel files, is it fair to say it

doesn't exist?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't -- if you're asking me if I have

a copy of it, I do not.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.

· · · · · ·A.· But, you know --

· · · · · ·Q.· I'm sorry.· Go ahead.

· · · · · ·A.· So I don't know where else it -- it would

be.

· · · · · ·Q.· Other than the personnel file?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I would not believe it should be

anywhere else.

· · · · · ·Q.· Now, I'm just asking because we have Ms.

Gray's entire personnel file or what's been represented

to us as her entire personnel file, and there's no

letter in there.· So I'm trying to figure out if it

would be somewhere else.

· · · · · ·A.· Oh.· I -- I don't -- I wouldn't think so.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Do you know why the letter would

have been sent?

· · · · · ·A.· Probably just to memorialize a

conversation.

· · · · · ·Q.· Which conversation?· The meeting you and
Ms. Gray had?

· · · · · ·A.· Correct.

· · · · · ·Q.· But you don't know the substance of how

it memorialized that conversation?

· · · · · ·A.· I'm -- I'm sure in the same way the

conversation did, which is we don't have a position for

you for Oak Lawn East payroll, you know, but we have a

position for you here.

· · · · · ·Q.· And would it have said anything about

FMLA or disability?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I would doubt it.· We -- we would

have prepared that letter prior to the conversation, so

I don't think so.

· · · · · ·Q.· Well, that's what I'm trying to

understand.· Because you're saying, you know, you

offered her a position, she said I'm going out on FMLA

leave, and that was the end of the conversation.· So if

there is a letter memorializing that conversation,

wouldn't it be important to mention that she said I'm

going out on FMLA --

· · · · · ·A.· Sorry.· Let me -- let me make sure.· When

I say "memorialize the conversation," our intents for

the conversation.· Not the intent of the conversation.

· · · · · ·Q.· Got it.· So the letter was written prior
to the meeting?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· And so what actually happened in that

meeting might not be reflected in that letter?

· · · · · ·A.· Correct.· Correct.

· · · · · ·Q.· As you sit here today, do you know the

nature of Ms. Gray's disability -- or at least the

disability that existed back then?

· · · · · ·A.· I do not.

· · · · · ·Q.· Have you ever seen a note from her

treating physician regarding a need for an

accommodation?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· I have not.

· · · · · ·Q.· Have you ever talked to Ms. Durham about

Ms. Gray's potential need for an accommodation?

· · · · · ·A.· I believe we have had -- had follow-up

conversations, but nothing more than to say, you know,

there's not a lot, you know, happening or there's been

no updates.· So nothing specific to the nature of her

disability.

· · · · · ·Q.· So when you say, you know, there's not a

lot happening, are you talking about her being out on

FMLA leave?

· · · · · ·A.· Correct.· Meaning we didn't -- you know,
I don't have an update specifically to kind of give

you.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Did you talk to Ms.

Durham -- prior to your in-person meeting with Ms. Gray

where you tell her her position is being eliminated,

had you talked to Ms. Durham about eliminating that

position?

· · · · · ·A.· I believe so.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So Ms. Durham would not have been

surprised that the Elk Grove -- sorry, the Oak Lawn

East position was being eliminated?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Have you ever heard of the

Americans with Disabilities Act?

· · · · · ·A.· I have.

· · · · · ·Q.· Have you received any training from

ManorCare regarding the Americans with Disabilities

Act?

· · · · · ·A.· What do you mean by "training"?

· · · · · ·Q.· Well, which is to say, you know, here's

what the ADA is, here's what it requires, here's what

as an employer we need to do, steps to follow.

Anything like that?

· · · · · ·A.· Probably.· Yes.
· · · · · ·Q.· Do you have a recollection of receiving

that training or --

· · · · · ·A.· I mean, you know, explanation,

conversation, teaching.· Yes.· I mean, I -- I've been

in operations for 20 years, so yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· So when's the most recent time you

received training on the ADA?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't know.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Who provided the training?

· · · · · ·A.· Anything like that would be human

resources.

· · · · · ·Q.· And I just want to be clear, are you

remembering a specific recollection?· Or you're just

saying, you know, I've worked there for 20 years, I

probably got it at some point?

· · · · · ·A.· Probably the latter.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Meaning you don't have any

specific recollection, but it probably happened?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And do you have any specific

memory of what, you know, you've learned in the

training, if anything?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· All right.· If an employee comes to you
and says I need an accommodation, for example, I need

to sit or stand every 15 minutes, how would you handle

that?

· · · · · ·A.· If my employee comes to me and says I

need to make an accommodation, I would call HR and I

would say okay, let me know what that is, give me your

information, and then we'll evaluate it and we'll get

back with you.· That's how we would handle that.

· · · · · ·Q.· Have you done that in the past with

employees?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· What information do you ask for?

· · · · · ·A.· I think anything pertinent to, you know,

what they're referencing as their accommodation.

· · · · · ·Q.· How much time do you give them to come up

with that information?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I wouldn't have a time frame on

that.

· · · · · ·Q.· I mean, a day?· A week?· A month?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I wouldn't even venture a guess.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.

· · · · · ·A.· We would certainly make any -- I mean, we

would absolutely support our employees with what their

needs are.
· · · · · ·Q.· How many employees do you think have come

to you over the years asking for an accommodation?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, I wouldn't even venture a guess as to

how many.· I mean, we have employees who have

accommodations.· So I don't know.

· · · · · ·Q.· And I'm just trying to get an order of

magnitude.· Is this something that happens to you once

a month?· Once a year?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't know because they may go directly

to HR.· They may go directly to, you know, me.· You

know, I don't know.

· · · · · ·Q.· What is -- how does --

· · · · · ·A.· Less -- less frequently in my role as an

RDO than probably as an administrator.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.

· · · · · ·A.· Because my personnel doesn't change that

much these days.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you know if ManorCare has a process or

a policy regarding the reasonable accommodation

process?

· · · · · ·A.· I'm sure we have -- you know, depending

whether we are just supporting the regulations or the

rules set forth or, you know, specific to it, I would

consult HR.
· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So sitting here today, off the top

of your head, you don't know what that policy says?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· Not specifically.· Not to quote.

No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Give me just a second.· All right.· Ms.

Lube, did you do anything to prepare for your

deposition today?

· · · · · ·A.· What do you mean by "prepare"?

· · · · · ·Q.· Did you review any documents?· Did you

talk to anybody besides your lawyer?· Anything like

that?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And I don't want to know the

substance, I just want to know if it occurred.· Did you

talk to your lawyer about your deposition?

· · · · · ·A.· I did.

· · · · · ·Q.· And approximately how long did you spend

talking to your lawyer about your deposition?

· · · · · ·A.· Oh, gosh, I don't know.· Forty-five

minutes, maybe?

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And was that one conversation or

multiple conversations?

· · · · · ·A.· Primarily just the one conversation.

· · · · · ·Q.· And when did that conversation occur?
· · · · · ·A.· On Friday.· We talked briefly this

morning to make sure we were --

· · · · · ·Q.· I don't need to know any of the

substance, but the conversation that you're talking

about happened last Friday?

· · · · · ·A.· Correct.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Did you look at any documents to

prepare for your deposition?

· · · · · ·A.· I did not.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· What is your understanding, if any, of

what this lawsuit is about?

· · · · · ·A.· I mean, my understanding is that -- I

don't know.· I mean, I don't know how exactly I want to

answer this because I -- you know, my understanding is

what we have today, which is, you know, there's a

clarity of, you know, if Ms. Gray had a accommodation

that was not made.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So your understanding is the

lawsuit's about an accommodation that was not provided

to Ms. Gray?

· · · · · ·A.· Correct.

· · · · · ·Q.· I don't remember when the lawsuit was

filed, but, you know, let's say a year and a half ago,

something like that.· Have you talked to Ms. Ciger
about Ms. Gray's lawsuit?

· · · · · ·A.· About the lawsuit?· No.· I mean, we

certainly have exchanged conversation, you know, over

time of, you know -- but nothing specific.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Anything specific about the

lawsuit?

· · · · · ·A.· Other than that it's happening and that

we're getting deposed?· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· What, if any, was Ms. Ciger's

reaction about the lawsuit or getting deposed?

· · · · · ·A.· I mean, I don't -- there's not really a

reaction I can describe.· It's more matter of fact.

· · · · · ·Q.· What about Ms. Durham?· Say in the last

year and a half, have you talked to her about this

lawsuit or your deposition?

· · · · · ·A.· Again, kind of the same answer.· Other

than to say, you know, this is happening and we're

getting deposed, no.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· No discussion about whether Liza's

right -- or Ms. Gray's right or wrong or anything like

that?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· Not really.· No.· Deb and I talked

about, you know, the process of this but nothing

specific to the knowledge.· No.
· · · · · ·Q.· Process?· You mean, like, the process of

litigation or the deposition?

· · · · · ·A.· Correct.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· In the last, say, year and a half,

have you talked to Ms. Ciger about this in-person

meeting with Ms. Gray we've talked about a number of

times?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't -- I don't recall that.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Have you talked to either Ms.

Ciger or Ms. Durham about Ms. Gray's request for an

accommodation?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't recall.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· When an employee requests an

accommodation from ManorCare, do you know what, if any,

kind of documents they're required to provide?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I would probably be the wrong person

to quote the requirements.· Again, I would be

consulting HR.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And if I understand -- and I'm not

trying to trick you.· It's more just we got to figure

out what different people know.· So if I'm

understanding you right, you're saying if an employee

came to you with an accommodation, you would go to HR

to figure out what to do?
· · · · · ·A.· I would -- I would never independently

manage that.· Correct.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So you would go to HR and say

so-and-so said this, what do I do now?

· · · · · ·A.· We would always converse on it.· Yes.

· · · · · ·MR. WHITE:· All right.· I may be about done.

If you guys just want to take five minutes, let me go

through my notes.

· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· That's fine.

· · · · · ·MR. WHITE:· Okay.· Sounds good.· Give me five

minutes.· Thanks.

· · · · · ·UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:· We're all good.· Thank

you.

· · · · · ·(Off the record.)

· · · · · ·MR. WHITE:· All right.· I reviewed it.

Everybody ready?

· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.

· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· Yep.

· · · · · ·MR. WHITE:· Okay.· Just a few more.

BY MR. WHITE:

· · · · · ·Q.· Ms. Lube, again you understand you're

still under oath?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· Did you talk to anyone about the
substance of your testimony during our break?

· · · · · ·A.· I did not.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· When we were talking about

potential positions at other buildings around the time

Ms. Gray's position at Elk Grove -- not at Elk

Grove -- at Oak Lawn was eliminated, do you know if Ms.

Gray called any other buildings in the region to see if

they needed her?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· I don't know.

· · · · · ·Q.· Do you recall ever telling Ms. Gray to

stop calling other buildings about potential

opportunities?

· · · · · ·A.· No, I don't.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Have you ever seen an email that

Ms. Gray sent to ManorCare's CEO regarding her position

elimination?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I don't recall if I have or not. I

think I've heard about it, and I don't know if I've

seen it or not.

· · · · · ·Q.· Who would you have heard about it from?

· · · · · ·A.· Probably my supervisor or HR at the time.

· · · · · ·Q.· And who was your supervisor at that time?

· · · · · ·A.· I changed supervisors in -- I think I

changed supervisors both in 2017 or 2018, so I'm not
exactly sure at what time frame that everybody changed

at.

· · · · · ·Q.· Well, I'll just take them both.· Who was

2017?

· · · · · ·A.· Alan Hash.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And 2018?

· · · · · ·A.· I had a couple of different people in

transition.· I had David Parker in transition, and then

my current supervisor is Rami Ubaydi.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Do you know how to spell Rami's

last name?

· · · · · ·A.· U-B-A-Y-D-I.

· · · · · ·Q.· And you said you may have heard about the

CEO email from one of these individuals.· Do you know

which one?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I don't.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· And do you recall what they told you

about the email?

· · · · · ·A.· I do not.

· · · · · ·Q.· I think you said maybe you heard about it

from HR?· Is that right?

· · · · · ·A.· I said or -- or potentially HR.

· · · · · ·Q.· And would that have been Deb Durham in HR

or somebody else?
· · · · · ·A.· Probably through Deb.

· · · · · ·Q.· And again, do you remember the substance

of anything she might have said about this email?

· · · · · ·A.· I do not.

· · · · · ·Q.· But as far as you know, you've never seen

the email?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I potentially could have, but I -- I

don't recall.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· One of the things Ms. Gray

testified to was that she had heard, you know, through

the grapevine that you had said when you became an RDO,

she would be one of the first people to go.· Do you

agree or disagree with that?

· · · · · ·A.· I disagree.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Why do you disagree with that?

· · · · · ·A.· Because I wouldn't say that.· And I

didn't say that.

· · · · · ·Q.· Did you think Ms. Gray was an asset to

the company?

· · · · · ·A.· You know, I don't know that I would

comment one way or another if she was an asset or not

an asset.· She did great work for us at Oak Lawn East

and helped us in many -- you know, many situations and

has worked for us a long time.· So I would not say
that.

· · · · · ·Q.· But if she did such a great job at Oak

Lawn East, why would you not say she's an asset to the

company?

· · · · · ·A.· I -- I'm just saying I wouldn't

necessarily characterize yes or no.· I'm just saying

that's how I would characterize it.

· · · · · ·Q.· You would characterize it that she did a

great job at Oak Lawn East?

· · · · · ·A.· She -- she helped us out in numerous

situations.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· I guess I'm just trying to understand.

What word would you use to describe her performance, if

not an asset to the company?

· · · · · ·A.· Excuse me.· I mean, her performance was

solid.· She just -- she was in a support role so, you

know, I wouldn't not use the word "asset."· It just is

a different role.

· · · · · ·Q.· How so?

· · · · · ·A.· It's just not, you know, a super -- you

know, when you -- when you have a need for someone in

that -- you know, need for someone in that role

educationally, you know, you need them.· And sometimes

you don't always need -- let me back up a second.
· · · · · ·It's just it's a very unique role of, you

know, when you need somebody in that role for

education, you know, that it waxes and wanes on, you

know, where you need them.· So it's -- it's just -- you

know, it's not an everyday role in a facility I guess

is what I'm trying to say.

· · · · · ·Q.· How long had Ms. Gray been a nurse

educator, if I'm saying that right?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't know her to be in a different

role.

· · · · · ·Q.· So as far as you know, her whole career

was in that nurse education role?

· · · · · ·A.· I mean, I believe early on in her career

with ManorCare, it was something different.· I don't

exactly know what it was, but most of the time I've

known her.

· · · · · ·Q.· So going back to the early 2000s, she was

in that nurse education role?

· · · · · ·A.· Uh-huh (affirmative).

· · · · · ·Q.· Yes?

· · · · · ·A.· Yes.

· · · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And it didn't, I guess, really wax

or wane for those 20 years?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· I'm sure -- I mean, again, you know,
support roles, you know, always are need-based on where

you're going and what's going on at the time.

Absolutely.

· · · · · ·Q.· I apologize.· I think I already asked you

this, but do you know if anyone took the role at -- the

nurse educator role that Ms. Gray was slated for at Elk

Grove Village?

· · · · · ·A.· I do not.

· · · · · ·Q.· How's Elk Grove Village doing as a

building?

· · · · · ·A.· Today?

· · · · · ·Q.· Yes.

· · · · · ·A.· Good.

· · · · · ·Q.· And what do you credit that turnaround

to?

· · · · · ·A.· So again, at the time that there -- you

know, we asked Liza to go there, there were open

positions.· You know, today I don't have open positions

at Elk Grove.· I have a different administrator. I

have a full complement of staff.

· · · · · ·Q.· So if I'm understanding, it was just

getting the facility staffed up that led to the

turnaround?

· · · · · ·A.· A lot of the times, that's what it takes
is, you know, managing open positions.

· · · · · ·Q.· Is there a nurse educator in every

facility?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·Q.· How many are there in your region?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't have any nurse educators in the

region.

· · · · · ·Q.· So how are you, I guess, managing that

process?

· · · · · ·A.· You know, we defer and rely heavily on

our clinical services personnel.· You know, individuals

in the region to help each other and support each

other.

· · · · · ·Q.· Apart from talking with Ms. Gray about,

you know, having her go to Elk Grove Village as a nurse

educator, was there any thought into having her perform

a different role anywhere?

· · · · · ·A.· There's a variety of different roles that

Liza could have performed.· And I'm sure at some point

in time we discussed them, you know, in terms of

directors of nursing or unit managers.· But Liza did

not want to work five days a week or utilize her

license, so she -- I think at one point in time -- this

would have been prior to going to Oak Lawn East, you
know, we talked about, you know, being more of a mobile

DON.· But again, Liza did not want to work five days a

week or hang her license.

· · · · · ·Q.· Did she tell you why she didn't want to

work five days a week?

· · · · · ·A.· No.· Liza hasn't worked five days a week

for as long as I've known her.

· · · · · ·Q.· And do you know why?

· · · · · ·A.· I don't.· She just -- I know she liked

her schedule.

· · · · · ·Q.· But you don't know why she asked for that

particular schedule?

· · · · · ·A.· No.

· · · · · ·MR. WHITE:· I think that's all I have for the

moment.· I don't know if your lawyer has any questions

for you.

· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· I just have one question.

· · · · · · · · · · · · ·DIANE LUBE

testified as follows on:

· · · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION

BY MR. TSCHANZ:

· · · · · ·Q.· Would you be able to explain the concept

of hanging one's license, briefly?

· · · · · ·A.· Sure.· So as an administrator/director of
nursing, you are responsible to be able to say, I have

to be a licensed individual in charge of that role.· So

Illinois Department of Public Health says that we have

to employ, you know, a licensed administrator and a

licensed director of nursing, you know, at all times.

And there are specific requirements behind that.

· · · · · ·So when we have an opening, maybe for like a

mobile director of nursing -- or, excuse me, for a

director of nursing, our mobile director of nursing

would be stepping in, meaning that they would be the

one legally responsible to be saying, yes, I'm the

director of nursing at that time.· And so that person

would be moving from facility to facility, you know,

based on openings and needs as well, but they would

also have that responsibility of saying yes, I'm

legally in charge in this given role.

· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· I have nothing further.

· · · · · ·MR. WHITE:· That's all we got for you.· Thank

you, Ms. Lube.· We appreciate your time.

· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Sure.· No problem.· Thank you.

· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· Thank you.

· · · · · ·Thanks, everybody.

· · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· How would you guys like to

handle signatures?
· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· We'll sign -- review and sign.

· · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· All right.· Sounds good.

· · · · · ·Mr. White, would you like the transcript?

· · · · · ·MR. WHITE:· We're going to hold off for now.

· · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· All right.· How about you, Mr.

Tschanz?

· · · · · ·MR. TSCHANZ:· Yes.

· · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· All right.· Sounds good. I

got all the spellings I need while we were on break.

So that is all that I need.· Thanks, guys.

· · · · · ·MR. WHITE:· All right.· Thank you.

Appreciate it.· Have a nice day.

· · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· You too.· Have a good rest of

your day.

· (Whereupon, the deposition concluded at 12:17 p.m.)
· · · · · · · · TRANSCRIBER'S CERTIFICATE

· · · · · ·I hereby certify that the foregoing pages are

a true, accurate, and complete transcript of the

proceedings transcribed from a copy of the electronic

sound recording to the best of my knowledge and

ability.

· · · · · ·I further certify that I am not a relative,

employee, attorney, employee of such attorney or

counsel, or financially interested directly or

indirectly in this action.

___________________________

Rachel Cook

Legal Transcriber