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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS

EASTERN DIVISION

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Nicole Lurry,

Plaintiffs,

 vs. Case Number 1:2020cv04545

City of Joliet, et al.,

Defendants.

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Remote Videoconference Deposition of

Nicholas Gerald Murphy

Monday

December 6, 2021

-Video Recorded Remotely byIn Demand Video Court Reporting

216 South Jefferson Street

Suite 103

Chicago, Illinois 60661

3

1 EXAMINATION INDEX

2

3 DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS

4 5 121 131 --

5

6

7 EXHIBIT INDEX

8

9 EXHIBIT NUMBER PAGE NUMBER

10 1 - 74

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

2

1 APPEARANCES

2

3 For the Plaintiff:

4

5 Ronak P. Maisuria

6 Abby Bakos

7 Bakos & Maisuria

8 1755 S. Park Street

9 Suite 200

10 Naperville, Illinois 60563

11

12 For the Defendants:

13

14 David Mathues

15 Hervas, Condon, & Bersani, P.C.

16 333 Pierce Road

17 Suite 195

18 Itasca, Illinois 60143

19

20 Also present:

21

22 Nicole Lurry

23

24

25

4

1 THE RECORDER: Good morning. We are now on

2 the record, Monday, December 6th, 2021. The time is

3 10:03 a.m. By agreement of all parties, we are

4 convened via remote videoconference for a

5 video-recorded deposition in the matter of Nicole Lurry

6 versus City of Joliet, et al., Case No. 20 CV 4545,

7 before the Northern District of Illinois, Eastern

8 Division. 0:00:21

9 This deposition is being recorded by In

10 Demand Court Reporting, located at 216 South Jefferson

11 Street, Chicago, Illinois 60661, on behalf of the

12 Plaintiff and being taken at the instance of the

13 Plaintiff. The witness today is Nicholas Gerard --

14 Gerald -- sorry -- Murphy. 0:00:35

15 Mr. Murphy, my name is Allyson Pritchard. 

16 I'm a notary public and the video recording device

17 operator for this deposition. At this time, would you

18 please raise your right hand for the oath? 0:00:43

19 (Witness sworn)

20 THE RECORDER: Thank you.

21 Would the attorneys please state their

22 appearances for the record? 0:00:53

23 MS. BAKOS: Abby Bakos, and Ronak Maisuria is

24 also online, for the Plaintiff, as well as the

25 Plaintiff herself, Nicole Lurry.

Ex. 28

Case: 1:20-cv-04545 Document #: 124-24 Filed: 06/15/23 Page 1 of 3 PageID #:2977
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Pages 129 to 132

129

1 A. Yes. 2:35:37

2 Q. And you don't remember the exact words that

3 any particular police officer may have been saying to

4 --

5 A. To the -- 2:35:44

6 Q. -- you because you -- you were focused on Mr.

7 Lurry?

8 A. To the -- to the exact? No. I do not

9 remember. 2:35:49

10 Q. Did you give Mr. Lurry all the Narcan that

11 you had in your ambulance?

12 A. Yes, we did. 2:35:54

13 Q. Did it have any effect on Mr. Lurry?

14 A. It did not.

15 Q. Approximately how many times in your career

16 as a firefighter paramedic, both with the Joliet Fire

17 Department and Superior, have you given a patient all

18 of the Narcan that you had without that Narcan having

19 an effect on the patient? 2:36:14

20 A. It's usually in more rare instances. And

21 usually it is when a drug has been cut or mixed with

22 another one. Usually it's that it's cut with fentanyl. 2:36:24

23 Q. Certainly sometimes you give Narcan and it is

24 successful in bringing a patient back, and they start

25 breathing again and their heart starts beating again.

131

1 actually -- the person's name who called the Joliet

2 Fire Department dispatching for an ambulance? 2:37:41

3 A. I do not.

4 Q. Nick, that's all I have.

5 MS. BAKOS: I just have a few follow-up

6 questions. 2:37:55

7 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

8 BY MS. BAKOS:

9 Q. You said --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- that there's a medical doctor who writes

12 out the protocols. Is that correct? 2:38:01

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is there anything in those protocols that has

15 anything to do with retrieving drugs from a -- an

16 individual's -- strike that. 2:38:12

17 Is there anything in the protocols that has

18 anything to do with retrieving objects from an

19 individual's mouth?

20 A. A generic one. Yes. 2:38:24

21 Q. What about specifically retrieving narcotics

22 from an individual's mouth?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Is there anything that has -- that mentions

25 holding an individual's nose in order to restrict their

130

1 Correct? 2:36:34

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And sometimes you give all the Narcan that

4 you've got and it is not effective. The patient

5 doesn't return to breathing or return to a heartbeat. 2:36:43

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. And there is a variety of factors as to why

8 that might be?

9 A. Yes. 2:36:47

10 Q. One would be how much time passed between the

11 consumption of the opiate and the delivery of Narcan?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And one would be how much opiate someone

14 consumed? 2:36:57

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Another one would be whether the opiate was

17 cut with fentanyl?

18 A. Yes. 2:37:01

19 Q. And another one might be the person's overall

20 tolerance levels for opiates?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And also their physical condition? 2:37:09

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And Ms. Bakos may have asked you this, but

25 just for purposes of the record. Do you know who

132

1 breathing? 2:38:45

2 A. No.

3 Q. And that's also not something that you've

4 been trained to do. Correct?

5 MR. MATHUES: Objection to form. 2:38:53

6 THE WITNESS: Directly, no.

7 BY MS. BAKOS:

8 Q. But indirectly trained?

9 A. So it -- it -- there is no real training as

10 far as if you have someone -- like, per se, with pica

11 and you need to have that person open their mouth. 2:39:12

12 So no, there's not a direct training on that

13 one.

14 Q. What is pica?

15 A. Pica is where someone wants to eat random

16 things like nails, glass, razorblades, so on and so

17 forth. 2:39:26

18 Q. Okay. So there is no trainings that you've

19 received that -- that permits you to pinch someone's

20 nose to get them to open their mouth. 2:39:42

21 MR. MATHUES: Objection --

22 BY MS. BAKOS:

23 Q. Is that fair to say?

24 MR. MATHUES: Objection to form and

25 foundation. 2:39:47

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Pages 133 to 136

133

1 THE WITNESS: Yes.

2 BY MS. BAKOS:

3 Q. Okay. And then is there a specific -- when

4 -- when you've used the technique of pinching someone's

5 nose to get them to open their mouths, how -- how long

6 do you do that for? Is -- 2:40:11

7 MR. MATHUES: Object- --

8 BY MS. BAKOS:

9 Q. -- there a specific period of time, or is it

10 just until the person opens their mouth?

11 MR. MATHUES: Objection to foundation and to

12 incomplete hypothetical. 2:40:20

13 THE WITNESS: There is no particular time

14 limit. Usually they're going to open their mouth and

15 they're going to breathe through their mouth. 2:40:26

16 BY MS. BAKOS:

17 Q. Okay. Would it, in your opinion, be a

18 particularly long period of time to pinch someone's

19 nose to get them to open their mouth if it was about a

20 minute and a half? 2:40:44

21 MR. MATHUES: Objection to foundation and

22 incomplete hypothetical.

23 THE WITNESS: A minute and a half I would say

24 would not be that long of a time. No. 2:40:52

25 BY MS. BAKOS:

135

1 exhibiting signs of a drug overdose at that time? 2:42:07

2 A. They had pills in their mouth. I've seen

3 that before in the hospital. Yes. 2:42:12

4 Q. Okay. But were they actually -- were there

5 actually symptoms that they were in the midst of a drug

6 overdose?

7 MR. MATHUES: Objection to foundation. 2:42:23

8 THE WITNESS: I -- I don't know how much they

9 had ingested at that time, so I can't give you a

10 definitive answer.

11 BY MS. BAKOS:

12 Q. Do you know if they had ingested any drugs? 2:42:32

13 A. I do not know if they did or did not.

14 Q. Do you remember seeing -- seeing any symptoms

15 that they were in the midst of a drug overdose? 2:42:42

16 A. To the best of my knowledge, I did not see

17 the -- the -- the very obvious ones of unresponsiveness

18 or absent breathing.

19 Q. Counsel discussed with you this evidence of

20 -- what is called? Petrechiae [phonetic]? 2:43:17

21 A. Petechiae.

22 Q. Petechiae. Is petechiae always present when

23 an individual is suffocated? 2:43:30

24 A. Usually is. It -- it's more of an indicator

25 that they are struggling to breathe or straining.

134

1 Q. Okay. So would you say that typically one --

2 people can hold their breath for about a minute and a

3 half without issue? 2:41:12

4 MR. MATHUES: Objection to foundation.

5 THE WITNESS: Again, it depends on person to

6 person. I can't really give you a definitive answer on

7 that. 2:41:19

8 But I would say that the normal person, yes,

9 can hold their -- their breath for a minute or a minute

10 and a half.

11 BY MS. BAKOS:

12 Q. And in the incidents where you've pinched

13 someone's nose to get them to open their mouth, were

14 they also in the midst of a drug overdose? 2:41:35

15 A. No.

16 Q. Were they also having some sort of a medical

17 emergency?

18 A. Yes. 2:41:45

19 Q. Okay. Like what kind of medical emergency?

20 A. Psychiatric.

21 Q. Okay. Anything other than that? 2:41:52

22 A. Not off the top of my head.

23 Q. Okay. And what about when you've observed

24 doctors and other medical professionals pinch someone's

25 nose? Do you know whether or not that person was

136

1 Q. Okay. But not always? 2:43:46

2 A. It -- it's -- in -- in my experience, every

3 one that I have had, yes, it has always been there. 

4 But I cannot --

5 Q. And that -- 2:43:54

6 A. -- give a definitive answer every person.

7 Q. Okay. And then it -- how does it come about

8 exactly? Is that when the person is actually trying to

9 breathe but they can't? 2:44:07

10 A. It's more the straining and -- and the

11 pressure buildup.

12 Q. Okay. So if the person is already

13 unconscious when they are strangled, would you still

14 expect to see the petrechiae? 2:44:28

15 MR. MATHUES: Objection to foundation and

16 incomplete hypothetical.

17 THE WITNESS: I -- I can't give you a

18 definitive answer on every person. Again, I -- I can't

19 even tell you on some of the calls if the person was

20 responsive before they had been strangulated or hung. 2:44:45

21 Every one that I have seen has the petechiae,

22 because it's -- not only is it them straining to

23 breathe, it's also the backup of blood in the brain and

24 then the -- the blood is trying to drain down but

25 cannot. 2:44:57

Case: 1:20-cv-04545 Document #: 124-24 Filed: 06/15/23 Page 3 of 3 PageID #:2979