Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 1 of 252
IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF ARIZONA

IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF PINAL

THE STATE OF ARTZONA, 2 CA-CR 20L4-0034

Plaint iff , No . CR2 0 1-1-03 02 6

-VS -

FERNANDO SEGOVIANO ALMANZA,

Defendant.

Florence, Arizona

October 2, 201-3

B:44 a.m.

BEFORE : The Honorable Boyd T . .Johnson,

Judge of the Superior Court

REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

JURY TRIAL, DAY 3

( coPY )

PREPARED FOR:

Arizona Attorney General

Criminal Appeals Section

REPORTED BY:

Jacquelyn A. A11en, RPR

AZ Certified Reporter No. 50151

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INDEX

TESTIMONY

WITNESS: PAGE

JACK .fOHN THOMAS INK

Direct Examination by

Cross-Examination bY

Redirect Examination

Mr

Mr.

by

Kohl er 18

48

63

6s

Green

Mr. Kohler

Jury Questions

DETECTIVE RANDALL SNYDER

Direct Examination bY

Cross-Examination by

Redirect Examination

Mr

Mr.

by

Kohl er 10

1"45

r-6I

174

1,7 6

Green

Mr. Kohler

Jury Questions Further Examination bY Mr

JOHNNY BOGGS

Kohler

Direct Examination by Mr.

Cross-Examination by Mr.

Kohl er 189

207

2]-1-

Green

Redirect Examination by Mr. Kohler

JULIE KLEIN

Direct Examination by

Cross-Examination by

Redirect Examination

Mr

Mr.

by

Long

Green

2t4

237

241

243

244

Mr. Long

Jury Questions Further Examination by Mr. Long

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EXHfBITS

STATE'S EXHIBITS

NO. DESCRIPTTON PAGE PAGE PAGE

IDENTIFIED MARKED ADMITTED

101 Di-agram

L02 Page out of

230

computerdocumented note 233

l- 0 9 Computer records 217

LL9 Exterior packaging

with DVD inside 126

L23 Envelope with

233

t2B

CD inside 138

1,2 6c- L2l

1,28 Plea agreement L87

5

186

I

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APPEARANCES

On Behalf of the State:

PINAL COUNTY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE

By: Matthew Long, Deputy County Attorney

Bureau Chief

Major Offenders Bureau

Thomas Kohler, Deputy County Attorney

P. O. Box 887

Florence, Ari zona I5l-3 2

On Behalf of the Defendant:

COOPER & RUETER , L. L. P.

By: Paul Green

P. O. Box 15005

Casa Grande, Arizona 85130-5005

ALSO PRESENT:

Detective Randy Snyder, Plaintiff's Case Agent

Patrick Cote, Defense Investigator

Alisha Olivarez, Court Interpreter

Sabine Michael, Court Interpreter

Danira Marinez, Court Interpreter

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Exhibits Nos

began. )

Florence, Ar j- zona

October 2, 20L3

8:44 a.m.

(Marked for identification State's

L26C and 1-27 bef ore the proceedings

REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

(The proceedings resumed outside the

presence of the jury and with the presence of Alisha

Olivarez, court interpreter. )

presence of

The jury is

Defendant's

with me so I

Mr. Kohler,

four that he

first draft

Monday, so I

Todd's going

draft.

THE COURT: Let' s have the record show the

the attorneys, the Defendant, Mr. Almanza.

not yet back.

Preliminarily, Mr. Green filed today the

proposed jury instructions and left them

could give them to the c1erk.

Based on his request, Mr. Long and

did you get a copy of that?

MR. KOHLER: We did, Your Honor.

THE COURT: There were, ds I counted it,

' s requested that weren' t included in that

of final instructions I gave everybody on

'11 put them into the second draft. And

to give you each a copy of the second

MR. LONG: ,Judge, could you identify the

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four?

THE COURT: Sir, yes Oh, 1et me have that

back

Yes, I wi11. Standard Criminal 3,

Stipulations; Standard Criminal 6, Voluntariness of

Defendant's Statements; Standard Criminal L7 , Voluntary

Act; and Standard Criminal 19, Defendant Witness Prior

Conviction.

Now, whether or not they're going to end up

being in the final instructions is something we'11 get

to eventually, but what I try to do on my drafts is put

together everything that both sides want and then we'11

make a record of what actually is given to the jury.

So when you look through it, Mr. Kohler and

Mr. Long, the second draft, if there's some that the

State would want that are not in there, 1et me know,

okay? You don't need to te1l me what you don't want i

te11 me if there's some that I need to add, then we' 11

work it off in the complete set. Okay?

Okay. Now, the only reason for meeting

before we call the jury in, and I do thank everybody for

being here timely except the jail being ten minutes

1ate, but I thank you anyway. At least you're here

is to find if there's anything we need to cover.

MR. LONG: There is a preliminary matter,

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 7 of 252
,Judge, we'd like to cover. Last night f did inform

Mr. Green of one of my intentions to present some

evidence today to give him an opportunity to research

the issue and provide any authority that he wanted.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. LONG: I didn't want to do this in

front of the jury, so I bring it up now.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. LONG: During Detective Snyder,s

testimony, which will be, r believe, our second witness

today, we intend to play Ada Wilhelmi,s forensic

interview. The purpose in playing the interview is

because Mr. Green's questions to the mother, Kathryn

Quinn, specifically raised the issue of coaching. He

indicated in his pretrial in the pretriar phase that

that was his theory specifically, and the animosity

questions that he asked went directly to that as

evidence at the pretrial argument and his theory.

That then opens the door clearly to whether

or not the child was coached. The best evidence would

be for the jury to hear the interview and the mannerisms

and all that that the child goes through. Rather than

talking about the animal, we would like to show the

animal.

And the State would request and agree that

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a limiting instruction would be appropriate to tell the

jury that the purpose that the tape is being played for

is not for content, but for those purposes.

THE COURT: Okay. Let me ask you, because

f don't know and I'm sure the attorneys do, is it. audio

only is is it audio and video?

MR. LONG: Audio and video, 'Judge .

THE COURT: So the jury your proposal is

to have the jury not only hear, but to watch the

reaction and behavior during the interview?

MR. LONG: Correct.

And we do have transcripts as wel1, because

the words that are said are relevant to the extent that

they provide developmentally appropriate language. So

I'm not saying that the language or some of the words

they're using are not appropriate or not relevant; they

certainly are and should be considered, but for that

purpose.

as weI1.

And so I also intend to hand out a transcript

THE COURT: You intend to proffer for

di s tribut i on ?

MR. LONG: Yes, Judge. I

that so that they could have that while

the video. And then we obviously would

tape or the we11, then we would not

would request

they're watching

not ask for the

ask for the

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 9 of 252
transcrj-pt to be admitted but only the tape.

THE COURT

MR. LONG:

THE COURT

it's a disk of some kin

MR. LONG:

THE COURT

instead of the '10s.

Okay, go.

MR. GREEN

prior recorded testimon

of a witness on the wit

don't remember a fact t

earlier interview. The

separate occasions

THE COURT

f saw a number of peopl

out if any are potentia

1et them out -

The recording, whatever it

Correc t .

We call it a tape, but I assume

d.

It is. It is a disk, ,Judge.

That's us working in the ,90s

Your Honor, the proper use of

y would be to refresh the memory

ness stand who states that they

hat they may have stated in that

State asked Ada Wilhelmi on two

Let me stop you just a second.

e go in the victim room. Find

I1y witnesses, and if they are,

DETECTfVE SNYDER: Yes, Your Honor. It,s a

couple of our newer detectives that have requested to

sit in and watch testimony

THE COURT: Okay.

DETECTIVE SNYDER: -- so they can be up on

ir.

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THE COURT: Okay. I appreciate you t,e11ing

me that, but Mr. Kohler, just verify that there's no

potential witness so as an officer of the court you can

te1l me that.

MR. KOHLER: (Complies. )

THE COURT: As an officer of the court

MR. KOHLER: As an officer of the court, I

can avow that neither of the people in that room are

wi tnes ses .

THE COURT: Great. Then very we11, they

can listen in.

Okay, 90 ahead and finish. You were saying

that it is recorded recollection and it should not be

played. Go ahead and finish.

MR. GREEN: Exactly, Your Honor. And the

witness on two separate occasions stated that she

remembered the events of that day when asked directly by

the State.

So we would object, Your Honor, to the

playing of that as improper. ft's prior hearsay, your

Honor, whj-ch I have no opportunity to cross-examine

because it's it was done in a closed interview.

THE COURT: Okay. The question to you is

do you intend to raise as a defense or a partial defense

the issue the argument of coaching?

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MR. GREEN: f believe I already have, Your

Honor. And yes, I do believe that that is a legitimate

defense.

THE COURT: Ms. Wilhe1mi, the young 1ady,

is st.il1 available, I take it, if she needed to be

recal 1 ed?

MR. LONG: She is.

THE COURT : Okay, grood.

Okay. You don't need to add anything. The

objection is overruled, it can be played. It's not

hearsay if the proponent, the speaker, is available for

cross-examination. She not only was, she could be if

necessary.

And it's an appropriate response to the

issue of whether or not coaching occurred, at least

based on the information given to the jury by

Ms. Moncher, and they can make their own analysis

separately without asking any expert herself or himself

to sdy, we11, g€€, was she coached. The jury will be

able to make their own assessments, so in that sense

it's very valuable to the jury's determination.

MR. LONG: Okay.

THE COURT: Did you want to add anything

else?

MR. LONG: Not to that. I wondered if the

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 12 of 252
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Court wanted to discuss scheduling for the rest of the

week, given where we're at.

THE COURT: Yeah, f'11 come back to that in

a second, but you don't have any other pre-jury issues

we need to talk about?

MR. LONG: No, sir. That was it.

THE COURT: Okay. f'11 come back to you in

just a second.

Do you have any other pre-jury issues,

Mr. Green?

MR. GREEN: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Yeah, 1et's get back to

scheduling.

MR. LONG: The proposed schedule, given

the I guess the speed at which we're going, is that

WE

THE COURT: You know, I do like to keep

trials moving. Go ahead.

MR. LONG: I think we've done that so

far.

THE COURT: Yes, you have, and so has

Mr. Green.

MR. LONG: -- is Jack Ink, Detective

Snyder, John Boggs, and then Dr. K1ein.

THE COURT: Dr. Klein? Is that not the

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doctor that's not coming until Monday?

MR. LONG: No, that's Sharon We1ch.

THE COURT: Oh, We1ch. That' s the

nurse?

MR. LONG: That's the SANE nurse/ that's

correct. Sharon Welch is the SANE nurse/ Dr. Klein is

the medical doctor.

THE COURT: I'm sorry. T was thinking it

was the medical doctor we were waiting for. Okay. So

you have four possible witnesses today?

MR. LONG: Correct. And then tomorrow what

we have scheduled are the DPS personnel, both of them,

Nikki Petrin and Peggy Toporek and Jackie Hess, and

those ard the only those are the remaining witnesses.

Jackie Hess was the nurse practitioner that viewed the

colposcope pictures.

And those are the only witnesses we have

for tomorrow. And then that leaves us with rea11y no

additional witnesses or no other witnesses until

Ms. Welch on Monday.

THE COURT: Does that mean, then, that we

might have Friday free?

MR. LONG: Yes, sir. And that's what I --

I g:uess f 'm requesting that that be an that a11owab1e

schedule.

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We are moving quicker, I guess, than we

thought. We picked up a day with Mr. Green's trial

going away, and we at this point sti11 do not have a

conflict with Detective Snyder. He has not received a

subpoena for that dependency hearing.

THE COURT: Okay, good. I also ought to

point out that I think the attorneys jointly saved some

time by the stipulation on the photographs. Lots of

time.

MR. LONG: And maybe the technology that

was used, Judge?

THE COURT: We11, I'm not going to support

Apple for any reason. You know how I feel about the

slide s1ows, but that's neither here nor there.

Technology advances. Some of us don't. Okay.

MR. LONG: The boss agrees with you,

Judge.

THE COURT: Okay. If it works out that

wdy, it will work out that way. It looks that way right

now, but let's wait and see where we actually stand

tomorrow morning.

Tomorrow morning if it looks like that

timing is correct, f'11 be very happy to te11 the jury

they can have Friday off, and f'11 explain the delay is

because of the need to have a witness and that it.

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Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 15 of 252
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shouldn't be held against any party, it,s necessary to

the presentation of the case.

After Ms. Welch is done, you, Mr. Green, f

take it, have not had are not ready at this stage to

make a decision along with your client about what you're

going to present? Or have you?

MR. GREEN: I have not at this point, rro,

Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. And that,s fair enough.

We'11 need to talk about that, though. f am hoping we

have some opportunity to get it to the jury Monday.

I've heard, although it's not been confirmed, that

somebody wants me to do another trial next week, so I

need to figure my own timing out.

What did you did you want to raise

anything else?

MR. GREEN: f don't think so, your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. I know you think you can

get through all four today, and you very well might, but

you never know what might happen, so 1et's see what

happens.

Anything e1se, Mr. Long

MR. LONG: No, sir.

THE COURT: -- Mr. Kohler, Mr. Green?

MR. GREEN: No.

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THE COURT: Great. Take a break and we'll

wait for the jury.

(Recessed f rom 8:55 a.m. until 9:1,2 a.m.

The proceedings resumed with the presence of the jury

and outside t.he presence of Mr. Matt Long. )

THE COURT: Let's have the record show the

presence of the attorneys, the Defendant, Mr. Almanza,

and the jury is now back in.

Mr. Long is on his way? Yep, there he

r_s.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

Welcome back.

Mr. Kohler, is the State ready to

proc eed?

MR. KOHLER: We are, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very good.

Mr. Green, are you ready to proceed?

MR. GREEN: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Thank you very much. First

witness next witness.

MR. KOHLER: Thank you, Your Honor. At

this time the State ca11s ,Jack Ink to the stand.

THE COURT: Okay. Come on up here. What I

need you to do is, this young lady is going to ask you

to get sworn, so you need to raise your right hand.

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Okay?

(The witness, Jack .Tohn Thomas Ink, was

duly sworn by the clerk of the court, dccording to

1aw. )

THE COURT

you understand what all

MR. INK:

truth, d11 of the truth

THE COURT

understand that's what

MR. fNK:

THE COURT

MR. INK:

THE COURT

is don't say "uh-huh" a

Okay ?

MR. INK:

THE COURT

Comf or tab 1 e ?

MR. INK:

THE COURT

MR. INK:

THE COURT

say "ygs . "

Now, before you sit down, do

that means?

Yes. f'm going to tell the

, and I'm not going to 1ie.

That's the important part. You

you have to do?

Uh-huh.

Yes ?

Yes.

One of the rules we have here

nd "huh-uh, " say "yes" and "no. "

Okay.

Go ahead, have a seat.

Uh-huh.

When you talk

Yes.

You said "uh-huh, " you didn't

When you talk, talk into that microphone/

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okay?

MR. INK: Okay.

THE COURT: Thank you. Go ahead.

iIACK {IOHN THOMAS INK,

ca11ed as a witness herein, having been first duly

sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. KOHLER:

A. ,Jack, would it be more comf ortable if that

microphone was a 1itt1e lower?

A. Maybe a bit. There.

O. Okay. ,Jack, can you go ahead and te11 us all

what your name is.

A. My name is .lack ,John Thomas fnk.

a. And Jack, how o1d are you?

A. 10.

a . ,Jack , do you go to s choo 1 ?

A. Yes.

THE COURT: And I'm going to ask you to

speak up just a little bit, please. Again, I want to

make sure everybody in the courtroom can hear you.

BY MR. KOHLER:

O. .Tack, what grade are you in?

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A. 5rh.

a. And what's your favorite class in school?

A. Reading.

O. What do you like best about reading, Jack?

A. f don't know, f 'fll just fast.

O. And what kind of books do you like reading?

A. Nonfiction.

O. What's your what's your f avorite nonf ict.ion

book that you've read recently?

A. Recently Narnia.

0. Now, Jack, what other classes do you have in

school ?

A. Math, science, I already said reading. We have

specials, which each every day it's different. We

have recess, we have science, writirg, spe11ing. That

should be it.

O. What's your favorite thing to do during recess?

A. Play tag.

O. And who do you play with, ,Jack?

A. A kid named Tim, another Gilbert, Michaela,

Waylene. Whoever will p1ay.

O. Are these people all friends of yours?

A. Yeah, sort of.

A. Now, what do you like to do at hoine for fun?

A. f like to go play with my friend, Sebastian.

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O. And anything else?

A. We11, w€ go over to this kid's house. His name

is .Tavie, and he has a giant trampoline, so we just go

over and jump on the trampoline.

O. What's your favorite part about jumping on the

t rampo 1 ine ?

A. I -- just getting high, I guess. Trying to

jump rea11y high.

a. Now, ,Jack, I'fil going to ask you a couple

questions about your family. fs that all right?

A. Uh-huh.

THE COURT: Wait a minute.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: There you go.

BY MR. KOHLER:

a. Why don't you te11 me te1l me about your

fami 1y .

A. I have my sister, Ada; my brother, Arlo; my

mom, Katie; my grandmama, my dad. Other people f don't

know, but I don't know all of them. f have some

cousins, my aunt. Two aunts.

O. Jack, can you te11 me who it is that you live

wi th?

A. My mom, but then on weekends f go with my dad

usua11y.

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0. And who lives with you at your mom's house?

A. My sister, my brother on every other week.

O. Now, you guys used to live on a ranch, didn't

you ?

A. Yes.

a. Can you te11 me about the ranch?

A. ft was big. We had a slaughter house. My mom

worked there as a butcher. There was the shed.

Me and my sister lived there for some time,

and my brother. And we had pigs, there was cows, there

was horses. We had some chickens.

O. Did you like living on that ranch, ,Jack?

A. Sort of.

a. What did you like best about it?

A. When the river flooded there was no school.

O. You said "sort of ." Was there parts of the

ranch you didn't like very much?

A. Yeah.

O. What were those?

A. It got rea11y hot. Sometimes my mom had to

work, 1ike, d11 day so I didn't rea11y get to see her.

And then there was always killirg, so it kind of

smel 1ed .

A. Now, what kind of t.hings would you do at this

ranch?

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A. I'd run around, shoot squirrels and do

homework, help my mom butcher sometimes. Let's see.

Lots of things.

O. Did you have any chores while you were working

on the ranch?

A. We11, the only chore would be feeding the dogs,

cats, making sure the pigs were okay.

O. What do you mean by making sure the pigs were

okay ?

A. Like, they had food, wdter, they weren't dead.

O. Was it your job to feed the pigs?

A. Yeah, but I usually needed he1p.

a. WeII, 1et's talk about feeding those pigs for a

bir.

A. Okay.

a. Why don't you te11 us tell us all about

feeding the pigs.

A. We11, I had to get a bucket fu1l of food, f had

to pour it down my trough, and I had to get it on the

right side. And then I had to go get a hose and water

and give them water and feeding them a bit.

And then sometimes we had scraps, 1ike,

just leftover food that we didn't want, so we would feed

that to them.

O. And let's talk about the food. You said you

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had to get a bucket of food; is that

A. Yeah.

0. Was that food kept right next to the pigpen or

far from it or somewhere else?

A. Far from it, in a shed.

O. Okay. And about how much food did you did

the pigs eat each time you fed them?

A. Let's see. The mom usually ate a bucket or a

bucket and a ha1f. When she was pregnant, usua11y,

1ike, two buckets, I think, but I'm not. totally sure.

0. And how often did you feed the pigs each day?

A. Once or sometimes twice, like if we were giving

them half the food in the morning, half their food in

the evening sometimes.

0. Now, when you were giving them half the food in

the morning and half the food in the evening

A. Uh-huh.

0. do you remember how much food you would have

to haul out to the pigpen?

A. No. Usua11y, 1ike, 1et,s say she was pregnant,

then it would probably be about a bucket, I think. Or

if she wasn't pregnant, then, 1ike, half a bucket for

her.

And then if she had any babies, then you'd

have to make sure they got food.

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O. How would you get the food out to the pigpen?

A. With a wagon.

0. Can you te11 us about that wagon?

A. ft was can't remember what it,s ca11ed, but

it's red. Sma11 wagon. The sides aren,t very ta11.

A. And would you just put the food right into the

wagon?

A. we11, r would have to get it out of the barrel

or a bag. And sometimes we would take the bags if there

was, 1ike, only a 1itt1e bit of food 1eft, so we would

just take the bag. But yeah, w€ would pour it or scoop

it or something like that.

O. And were those bags heavy?

A. Yeah, 50 pounds before opening.

o. And would you take the whole 50 pounds out to

the pigpen?

A. No.

O. So what would you do with the SO_pound bag?

A. r open it, we either put it in a barrel so that

we could just use the bags for something e1se, or we

just put it in a barrel so that we didn't have bags all

over the p1ace. And there was a lot of there was a

couple empty barrels in there. And then, yeah, we use

the bags for something else sometimes.

O. Now, generally when you go feed the pigs, about

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how long would that take you?

A. Can't remember.

A. Was it something that was over rea11y quickly?

A. f don't think so.

O. And about how long do you think you stayed with

the pigs when you were feeding them?

A. ft depends on if there was babies, I would have

to make sure they were all fine, no cuts or anything, or

if they were dead.

0. And so you were you would be out there with

the pigs for a little while?

A. Yeah, sometimes. But 1ike, if she had no

babies, then f would just leave pretty quickly if I

didn't if there was nothing f had to do or if I had

something else to do.

O. Did you like being around the pigs?

A. Yeah, except for the sme11.

O. And were you pretty good at doing the pig

feeding ?

A. Yeah. I just sometimes needed he1p, because

the buckets were r don't know, r d.on't remember how

many pounds. But they were heavy, so f needed help

usual 1y .

O. Now, you say you needed help?

A. Uh-huh.

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O. Who would help you feed the pigs?

A. Jaime or Fernando.

0. Te1l me who Jaime is.

A. He's a guy who worked on the ranch.

O. Do you know .Jaime's last name?

A. No.

O. Okay. Now, you also mentioned a person named

Fernando.

A. Uh-huh.

0. Can you te1l me who Fernando is?

A. Yes. He was Mexican. f don't know where he

lived. He was also a ranch hand.

That's pretty much all I know about him.

O. Now, te11 fire , when they would help you feed the

pigs, ,Jaime and Fernando, what kind of things would they

help you with?

A. Like, pouring the buckets into there. Because

we had to the things were kind of high, so lifting

the buckets that high f couldn't real1y do.

a. Now, you said something there that I want to

make sure I understand. You said "pourJ-ng the buckets

into there." Did I hear you right?

A. I mean, pouring the buckets into, 1ike, a

trough thing. You can pour it onto both sides, but we

had to pour it onto just one.

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0. Why did you pour it on just one side?

A. Because usually the pigs were only on one side.

But if they were on both sides, then we pour it into

both.

O. And is that the kind of help that both Jaime

and Fernando would give you with those pigs?

A. Yeah.

And sometimes, 1ike, the hose wouldn't turn

on or we couldn't find the hose or we were out of food

or something like that.

O. What would you do if the hose wouldn't turn on?

A. We11, f'd go get one of them.

O. And were they able to turn the hose on?

A. Yeah. Usually it was something that or

someti-mes it had been, 1ike, unconnected so we had to

get it in. Like, sometimes we would have to scoop it

out of the cow trough, the cow thing, the cow bucket for

water.

O. Was that a 1ot of work, scooping out of the cow

bucket for water?

A. Yeah, because it was like f don't know how

many feet away, but it wasn't very too c1ose. And we

had to go there was a fence so that we couldn't just

walk straight, too. We had to curve, and yeah.

O. Sounds like a 1ot of work.

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Te1l flle, was there ever a time where you

just carried the bags instead of using the wagon?

A. No, unless my mom was there carrying the bags.

O. But when you did it, did you always have to use

the wagon?

A. Yeah. Unless it was something like scraps.

O. Te1l me about scraps. What are scraps?

A. Leftover food that we don't want. Or like when

my mom's cutting and she can't make it into ground beef

or any steaks, then we'11 just feed those to the pigs.

O. Where did you and your mom keep scraps?

A. We1l, it either came from the house or in the

packing house where my mom butchered. And if it was in

the house, then probably in the fridge, but if it was in

the packing house, in this giant cooler that where

they hang the beef.

O. Did anyone else ever give you guys scraps for

the pigs?

A. Yes.

O. Who?

A. .Taime, Fernando I think did a couple times .

O. And how did that work?

A. We11, they would bring, 1ike, leftover food or

food that's gone bad and they can't eat anymore but it

would be okay for pigs.

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0. Where would they put that food?

A. Usually in the packing house cooler, or they'd

just go feed it to the pigs then.

O. Okay. Now, 'Jack, f want to talk to you I 'm

sorry. Before I talk to you about that, did any of your

siblings ever help you feed the pigs?

A. Yeah. Ada sometimes came and helped me throw

the meat. Arlo did a couple times, I think. But I'm

not sure.

O. When you'say "throw the meat," what do you mean

by that?

A. Wel1, we would just throw it in their pen,

usua1ly, because we didn't need to pour it into their

troughs. Because if we throw it in, usually they can

all get it, but if we put it in the trough, usually it

fa11s on the other side where there's no pig. But if

there was on both sides, then we'd just pour it on both

s ides .

O. So you would throw it you would throw the

scraps into the pigs to make sure it got to the pigs and

didn't fa11 somewhere else?

A. Yeah.

O. Okay, great. Now, I want to talk to you about

the last time that Fernando helped you with the feeding

of the pigs. Do you remember that time?

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A. Yeah. When my sister came with us, I think?

O. Let's talk about that. Can you tel1 me te11

me about that time. What do you remember?

A. Not very much because it was a long time ago.

But I remember we were going we were getting the

wagon to feed the pigs. We f think we brought the

wagon there. I think Fernando either joined us with

there or I had to go get them. I can't remember which.

O. And what happened next?

A. Then we would take it to the pigs. He would

Fernando helped us. I went to go get he told me he

had brought some scraps, so I went and got the scraps.

0. Where did you go to get those scraps?

A. Packing house, hanging room or fridge.

0. And what happened next?

A. Then I got the scraps, came back, and we fed

the scraps to the pigs.

A. A11 right. Now, I want to walk through what

you just told us a 1itt1e bit and ask you a few more

questions about that. Would that be okay?

A. Yes.

O. A11 right . So you said, " W€ got the f ood rr 

- -

A. Uh-huh.

O. "and went to the pigs."

A. Uh-huh.

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O. Am f remembering what you said right?

A. Yes.

O. Okay. Where were you when you got the food?

A. The shed.

O. Okay. And after you got the food, who was the

"we" that was there getting the food?

A. Me and my sister. I remember for sure it was

me and my sister getting the food, but Fernando might

have been helping us. But I can' t remember. I don't

think he was.

a. Now, when you say "getting the food, " does that

mean you're taking feed out of bags and putting it in

bucket s ?

A. Yes, or out of barrels. f can't remember which

it was/ out of the feed out of the bags or the

barrel s .

O. And then correct me if I'm wrong then you

put those buckets in your wagon, Tight?

A. Yes.

0. So then what happened after you and Ada had

and possibly Fernando had the food? What did you do

next ?

A. We went back to the pigs to feed it to them.

a. Okay. And what happened when you got to the

pigs ?

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A. We11, it was either I went to go get

Fernando, or we fed them and then he told me that f

remember he was there, and he told me he had some scraps

and t,hat he had brought some scraps. So I went to

get he told me why don't I go get the scraps.

a. Okay. So you got to the pigs?

A. Uh-huh.

0. And you're not rea11y sure if Fernando came

with you or if he was already there or if you went and

got him. Is that an accurate statement?

A. Yes.

O. But do you remember Fernando being with you at

Ehe pigs at some point?

A. Yes.

O. Okay. And once you were there at the pigs,

what do you remember happening next when all three of

you were there?

A. We11, we fed the pigs the food, or maybe it was

we he told me to go get the scraps while he fed them,

r can't remember which. or maybe it was after he had

we had fed the pigs, but I don' t remember.

O. What did you do when he told you to go get the

scraps ?

A. I went and got the scraps.

O. And where did you go to get these scraps?

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A. rn the packing house, in the fridge or cooler.

a. Did Ada come with you, stay at the pigpen, ot

something else?

A. She stayed at the pigpen.

O. Was she there was Fernando with you at the

pigpen or was he somewhere else?

A. He was with us at the pigpen, but he stayed

with Ada

O. Okay.

A. when I went to get scraps.

a. So after you got the scraps, did you take your

wagon with you to get the scraps?

A. f don't think so, but I can't remember f or

sure, but I rea11y don't think so.

a. Okay. And then did you what did you do once

you had the scraps in your hand?

A. I shut the fridge, then I went back to the

to the pigpens.

O. And what did you see when you got to the

pigpen ?

A. Fernando and Ada I think sitting there, or

maybe they were standing. I can't remember.

O. And what happens next with those scraps?

A. We fed it to them. To the pigs, I mean.

O. Thank you for clarifying that.

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And then what did you do?

A. Then I think we went back.

O. OkaY.

A. But we may have stayed for a little while

longer to do something, but f think we went back after

that.

0. And when you say "we went back,,, who do you

mean?

A. Me and my s j-ster.

O. And what about Fernando?

A. Him I think he just went over to get on wi_th

other stuff he had to do.

O. Did he walk with you back to the house?

A. NO.

O. So while you're walking with Ada, did anything

happen that you remember?

A. We11, we walked up to the house and she said

Fernando had touched her private. And I'm like and

then I said, "Go te11 mom, not me."

O. And what did Ada do next?

A. Went and told mom.

O. ,Jack, f 'd like to f 'd like to use these big

TVs here for a minute. can you see these big TVs we've

got here?

A. Yes.

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0. Those look pretty cool?

A. Yeah.

O. I'm going to show you some stuff on the TVs.

It might be a little more boring than other stuff you've

watched on TV, but I'm going to show you some pictures,

all right?

A. Okay.

O. ,Just show you I'11 be showing you shortly

what's been marked as State's Exhibit No. 3.

A. Okay.

O. Now, we've got this one right behind you here,

so f 'm going to have you look at that one. And I may

have you show us a few things on that if that's all

right with you. Can you do that?

A. Yes. Will I have to, 1ike, point at them or

O. You know what? f think , Lf it,s okay with you,

I'm going to have you stand up and show us in a minute

once we get them working.

A. Okay.

O. Thanks, Jack.

A. Okay.

THE COURT: ,fack, Iet. me te1l you, if you

are going to get up there and stand, if you're talking,

you have to speak out very 1oud1y, because everybody has

to hear you, okay?

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THE WITNESS: Okay

THE COURT: And if you can't speak out loud

enough when you answer, I'ilr going to have you come back

to the microphone, so give it a good try.

THE WfTNESS: Okay.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

BY MR. KOHLER:

O. Well hey, Jack, before we get into this, what

are we looking at here in State's Exhibit No. 3? ,Just

te11 us.

A. We are looking at the top of the ranch or

we11, from a helicopter.

THE COURT

hear him?

Okay. Go

MR. GREEN

grab the photos?

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

BY MR. KOHLER:

O. Jack, is that

picture of the ranch.

Let me check. Can everybody

ahead, sir.

Your Honor, fldy I approach to

Sure, go ahead.

Thank you, Your Honor.

Do you have what you need?

Yeah.

Okay. Go ahead, sir.

the picture you said it's a

Is that the ranch you used to

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l ive on?

A. Yes.

O. How do you know?

A. We11, it looks exactly the same. It's stil1

kind of big, but it has changed, probably.

O. fs that about what you remember it looking like

when you lived there?

A. Yeah.

O. Okay. Can you show us on there where it was

that the pig food was kept?

A. The pig food was kept in this building right

here.

THE COURT: Just a 1itt1e bit louder if you

can.

THE WITNESS: The pig food was kept right

here, in the shed right there.

BY MR. KOHLER:

O. A11 right. Now, orr that map can you te11 me

where it was that your scraps that you talked about,

where did those get kept?

A. Those are either in the packing house right

here, ot sometimes we put our food scraps, 1ike, from

the meal we had 1ast, and we kept it in a fridge in the

house.

O. Okay. Now ,Jack, f 'fil going to show you what's

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been marked as State's Exhibit No. 29. Can you tel1

what we're looking at there?

A. We're looking at the ranch. But mainly what

you see is part of the shed. The car's there, and

there's the pen where we sometimes kept cattle, the

trailer that we lock the cattle oil, and then over here

is the gate where you went to the pigpen.

O. Now, 'Jack, is that the shed there on the right

that you said you see part of a shed there? fs that

the where the pig food was kept?

A. Yes.

O. And is that where that red wagon you mentioned

was also?

A. I don't remember. Might have been in there,

but I might it may have been left over somewhere

else. Tt's not always in there. Sometimes we will

leave it at the pigpen, but usually it is in there.

O. Now, is that where you would have to take the

wagon to pick up the food?

A. Yes.

a. Okay. And then after you fi11ed up that wagon

with the food, can you show us on that picture where it

is that you'd go with that wagon?

A. I would take the wagon, I'fir not sure where.

Sometimes I would go this way if f knew there was scraps

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in the packing house and I'd go this wdy, there

the packing house on this side of the trailer.

if I knew there was no scraps, then I would just

behind the trailer straight to the pigpen.

O. You know what, .Jack? We're going to go

State's Exhibit No. 3 again. Remember that one?

towards

But then

go

back to

A. Yes.

O. Can

show with us

that picture

wagon.

A. We're looking at the

pen. There' s the gate, there'

sometimes t.he gate they first

are shut because we need cows

But I gruess we had to open it.

you draw with us with your finger, just

I'm sorry show us with your finger on

where it was that you would haul your

A. If there was scraps in the packing house I

would go this wdy, but if there was no scraps, I would

go this wdy, probably, and then go through the gate.

And the pigpen is right up here, in this tree area.

O. Now, you just mentioned a gate. I'm going to

show you what's been marked as State's Exhibit No. 36.

Do you recognize what we're looking at there, Jack?

A. YeS.

O. What are we looking at?

shop from in the cattle

s the second gate, because

go through and this gate

there for slaughter day.

f remember there was no

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cows in the p€fl, so we would open the gate that f showed

you that on 3 that I showed you, and we would open

this gate. We would shut the gates after we went.

And then the pigpens were back here.

O. Now, .fack, right there where you were pointirg,

is there a water pipe running somewhere there in the

road?

A. It's right across there. And it leads to the

cow trough so that we can just turn the water on and

it'11 just pour into the cow trough without us having to

bring buckets or anything e1se.

O. Is it kind of like a bump in the road?

A. Yes.

O. Was it easy to get your wagfon over that bump?

A. No.

O. What did you have to do to get over that bump?

A. Usually I would scoot the food back to the end

while I'm doing on the first side, then while half of it

was over, f moved the food to the front of the wagon.

a. And then were you able to get over the wagion

or get over the bump that way?

A. Yeah. But if there was two buckets in the

thing, we'd have to get it over the thing without using

that.

a. I'm going to have you look now at State's

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Exhibit No. 62. What are we looking at there?

A. The pigs, the back of the pigpen, my dog, my

old dog. Here's the hose that we would use for the

water. Looks like here our mama pig had just had a

litter not too long dgo, and yeah, the back of the

trough.

O. Now ,Jack, is that what the pigpen looked 1ike,

about what the pigpen looked like on the last day

Fernando fed the pigs with you?

A. f don't think so because I don't think there

was any babies 1eft. There might have been. I can't

remember.

a. So maybe the pigs are different? Is that what

you're saying?

A. Yeah. But the trough was wait. Oh, yeah.

I think they had made them longer that time before that.

Or after that. Maybe it was maybe it was before that

and they were longer when that happened, but f don't

think they were.

O. okay.

A. I think that was later.

a. I'm sorry. I don't mean to confuse you by

asking confusing questions, and if I ever confuse you,

just te11 me and f'11 try again.

So looking at this view of the pigpen,

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42

where would you have put the food? Can you see it from

here ?

A. Sort of.

0. Show us where.

A. We1l, here is, like, the 1id we would put over

so nothing can get into the top of it.

O. f'm sorry. Did you say ulid'"

A. Yeah, kind of like a Iid or shutter so that you

can/ 1ike, shut it so nothing can get in.

But yeah, you can see the pigs right there.

You can't rea11y see them because they were probably

eating.

O. So are they eating out of the trough where you

would have put the food?

A. Yes, it looks like that. Because if they

weren't, then they would probably be, 1ike, scattered

about, 1ike, getting scraps if we had been throwing them

in.

O. Going to show you what's been marked as State's

Exhibit No. 66. Is that kind of the same view we were

just looking at?

A. Yeah.

O. Okay. So that's the same side?

A. These are just a little bit different and just

the camera ang1e. Can you go back to the other one?

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O. I can. f 'm showing you what's been marked as

State's Exhibit No. 62 now.

A. Yeah, but the other one.

Yeah, this one. That's just the tree

showing closer up than the other one.

O. Okay. So f'm going to show you a different one

now, and maybe that one will help us a little more.

Now, what are we looking at there?

A. The pigpen after it had been 1ike, we had

put the we had some of my mom's friends help us

put this up, but f'm pretty sure it wasn't this long

when Fernando had been feeding the pigs with us.

O. A11 right. Now, orr this picture, even though

it's longer than it used to be, does this picture show

where it is that you put the food?

A. Not rea11y. This tree and that tree are kind

of in the way. You can see the 1id on this one. And

here's, like, the body of the thing, because it was big.

a. A11 right. Now, f'fir going to show you what's

been marked as State's Exhibit No. 68. Is that the

fence that was around the pigpen when you and Fernando

were feeding the pigs?

A. No. We can see there, right there is where it

was. And this thing, I'ilr pretty sure that it wasn't,

like I said, long like this, but you can see just the

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edge of the fence right there where there was right

there -

0. f've got one more pigpen picture for you, okay?

rs that a picture of the pigpen like it looked when you

and Fernando were feeding the pigs?

A. I don't think So, because I don,t think this

fence was there.

But I can pretty much show you, because

just this part was part of the pigpen. Here,s the

trough hole we said right there. you can kind of see

ir.

0- so ilve finally gotten a picture that actually

shows us the trough? fs that what you're telling me?

A. Yes.

a. Excellent. And you are saying that big fence,

that wasn't there?

A. Yes, f,m pretty sure it wasn't.

a. what about the 1itt1e fence there next to itz

A. Right here?

A. Yeah.

A. Yes, that was there.

O. So did you have to lift the food over that

fence to put it in there?

A. we11, w€ had to get the food up here. This one

lm pretty sure the 1id was usually shut, so usually we

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had to open a 1id, I think. I don't remember what we

did, if the 1id was shut.

But yeah, you can see, here is where the

food was kept. We'd usua11y, when I could feed the pigs

by myself when I got to that point, I would just climb

up with the tree. Sometimes I would hang the bucket on

a limb or something, then climb up to the top, bring it

up, feed them.

O. Thanks, Jack.

Now, f'm seeing a 1ot of trees there. Do

you remember what kind of trees those are?

A. Mesquite. Other ones f don't think there

was any other kind of trees.

O. Were those mesquite trees all around the

pi gpen ?

A. Yes.

O. And did they make it hard to see the pigpen as

you're walking up to the pigpen?

A. Yeah, kind of.

Can you go back to the one where you see

the gate opening?

O. I sure can. That would be State's Exhibit 36.

Correct me if I'm wrong when f show you the picture.

fs this the one you meant?

A. Yes. Like right here, you can kind of see.

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It's kind of hard to see back there.

And then if you go back to Exhibit 3.

O. f will indeed, sir.

A. Right here is about where the pigpens were. So

you can see/ there's lots of trees.

O. Thanks , ,Jack. Go ahead and have a seat . I

rea11y appreciate you showing me all these trees.

A. Okay.

O. ,Jack, te11 me something. When you were at the

pigpen, could you see the packing house, or was that

view obscured?

A. I can't remember.

a. Okay. Were there trees j_n between and go

ahead and look at State's Exhibit 3 if you want. Does

that show that there are trees in between the packing

house and the pigpen?

A. Yeah. Right here you can kind of see you

could kind of see the packing house, but I don't but

I cou1d, 1ike, see glimpses of it, 1ike, because the

trees wouldn't cover everything. But you couldn't

rea11y, 1ike, see it, 1ike, if as good as if you

were like, from right here you can see it rea11y

good, but if you were over by the pigpen, you can see it

sort of.

O. A11 right. Jack, I just have

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47

THE COURT: Hold on just a second.

Go ahead and get back in this chair,

please.

MR. KOHLER: Thank you, Your Honor.

Thank you, ,f ack.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

BY MR. KOHLER:

O. ,Jack, I don't have very many more questions f or

you, just a few today.

A. Okay.

a. Jack, did Fernando, the last day that Fernando

fed the pigs with you, the day that Ada told you that

Fernando touched her, did Fernando te11 you to go get

the snacks that day?

A. Yes. He told me to go get the treats.

a. Treats, I'm sorry. I used the wrong word.

And were those treats what we were calling

" scraps " earlier?

A. Yeah. Scraps, treats.

O. And that day Fernando told you he brought those

from home?

A. Yeah, I think. Or f don't know if he f

think he brought them or he just knew I,m sorry if I

confused you, but now I'm trying to remember. He may

he may have brought them, but he may have just, 1ike,

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known that somebody else did.

O. Thank you for clarifying that. I appreciate

that.

And did when he talked to you, did he

use the word "treats" or "snacks" or something else?

A. Don't remember.

A. Okay. Now, I just have one last question for

you here, .Jack. When Ada told you that Fernando had

touched her and you told her to go te11 mom, how did you

feel ?

A. Like, I was like don't rea11y remember, but

I think f was surprised, or 1ike, whoa.

MR. KOHLER: f have no further questions,

Your Honor.

THE COURT: A11 right, thank you.

Mr. Green?

CROSS-EXAMINATfON

BY MR. GREEN:

A. Hi, Jack. How are you doing?

A. f 'm good.

O. Good. Are you nervous?

A. No.

O. Good. You don't need to be nervous.

Jack, how often did you it was your

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49

chore to feed the pigs, correct?

A. Correct.

A. And how often did you feed the pigs?

A. During the summers, sometimes in the evenings

after school. But sometimes I was in school so I didn't

have to feed them.

O. So who fed them when you didn't feed them?

A. Sometimes ,Jaime, Fernando, or my mom.

O. Okay. And when you went when you fed the

pigs, did your mom ever go with you?

A. Yes, she sometimes did.

0. And did your mom and Ada go with you

sometimes ?

A. Yes, I think there was a couple times it was

like that.

O. Okay. And you said that when you got to the

trough, to the thing where you

A. The feeder thing?

O. The feeder? Is that what it is?

A. Yeah. I call it usually a trough, but it could

also be known as a feeder.

O. Okay. So when you got to the I'11 use your

word, okay? -- to the trough, you in that picture it

showed that there was, 1ike, a big, heavy roof or

something on the top of that, Tight?

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A. Yes.

O. And was that does it lift up and fold open?

A. Yes, it can. But if sometimes it was shut.

But I needed help to get it open because it was heavy.

a. Okay. So when you were this was a couple

years dgo, so you were pretty young and a 1itt1e bit

smaller than you are now, right?

A

o.

up?

A. Probably not.

a. And is there any way to get food in

the 1id isn't lifted up?

A. WeI1, you can throw it in. And like

if the pigs are sleeping it can go in real qu

1ike, you can throw the food into the trough,

sometimes scraps.

Correct.

And so you weren't able to get that 1id lifted

there if

, sometimes

ietly, and

1i ke

But usually we would

sometimes put them in the trough.

them into the trough, and then we

think we did that a couple times,

throw them somewhere else so that

a chance.

just throw them in or

We cou1d, 1ike, throw

would. probably I

and then we would just

all the pigs would get

a. Okay. Now, you said that when you had to go

in real quiet when the pigs were sleeping. Is that

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because it's dangerous to go into the in there with

the pigs? Or

A. No. I meant, 1ike, if they're sleeping, you

can sneak in and then throw the food in without them

waking up for a while. But then they will wake up once

they sme11 the food enough.

O. Okay. And so you said that two different

people we11, sometimes your mom was there. So was

she able to lift the 1id?

A. YeS.

O. And sometimes you said .Taime would help you?

A. Correct.

o. And then sometimes you said Fernando would help

you ?

A. Yes. And then a couple times, I don't know how

many times, one of my mom,s apprentices did.

O. Okay.

A. Most of the time most of the time it was

Jaime, Fernando, or my mom.

O. And who were the apprentices?

A. One was named Antonio. The other, I can't

remember his name.

And they both helped out a couple times,

but not very many.

O. Okay. Now, you described how you would put

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52

if the 1id was open.

A. Uh-huh.

O. Was the 1id left open sometimes?

A. Yes. Usually we'd just leave it open so that

we didn't have to go through the trouble of opening it

again, because sometimes it would get stuck if you open

it if you close it, I think.

O. And the 1id was what was the lid for, do you

know?

A. Yeah, to keep out critters. Like, there was a

bunch of raccoons which I don't think there ever

were; I never saw any raccoons myself but 1ike, so

that they couldn't, 1ike, just jump through the trees

and, 1ike, 9et into the pig food and eat their food.

0. Okay. So why would you leave the lid open if

you were worried about critters? Not you, but why would

the 1id be left open?

A. We11, because usually there wasn't any

critters. I think that was how it was bui1t, but

1ike, back then where it was built.

But we didn't rea11y have any critters,

unless birds. But the birds, I never saw any do that.

a. Okay. So if the 1id was open, you just

described a fairly creative way that you would put the

food into the feeder, into the trough, Ttght?

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A. Correct.

O. What was that? How did you do that?

A. Can you say it again? Say it again.

O. How did you what was the way that you used

when you were alone to put the food into the feeder?

A. We11, if I was big enough, because I was

sometimes we1I, f was f don't know when, but I

would if I was alone and f was big enough to do it, I

wou1d, like, just leave it on a tree branch and then

climb up, lift it as high as I can, and Lry to get it

onto the tree branches or something like that, ot caught

up on something so f can lift it up easily after f climb

up onto the top.

O. And you say when you were big enough. Were you

big enough when Fernando was sti11 on the ranch?

A. I don't think so.

0. So that would have been after Fernando was

gone; is that right?

A. Yes, pretty sure.

O. So this time that you fed the pigs with

Fernando, you said you got the food from the shed,

right? And the food is in SO-pound bags. Are you able

to pick up a 5O-pound bag?

A. Not back then. But when I was big enough, I

could hold it for a couple seconds, but I had to put it

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down real fast.

O. Let's talk about back then, because that's sort

of what we're talking about today. Back then you say

you weren't big enough to pick up a SO-pound bag; is

that correct?

A. Correct.

O. So how did you get the food from the 50-pound

bag into the buckets?

A. Wel1, I would open the bag, because I could do

that, and then I would use a scooper. Or it would be in

a barrel, so I could just get on something high, scoop

it out of the barrel.

O. And was this a fu11 barrel or a

A. Sometimes it was fuI1. Sometimes it was, 1ike,

halfway, because after lower and

lower because you would

trying it would get

O. f know that my

take out food.

question confused you a litt1e

bit because I asked it wrong. The what I'm talking

about is this barrel, whether it's empty or fu11, is it

a fu11-sized barrel, or is it, 1ike, a barrel that's

been cut in ha1f, or

A. It was fu11-sized, about, if I remember

correctly, this high. (rndicating. )

a. From the floor down here?

A. Wait, I'11 show you.

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I think this high, about. But I was

smaller then, so I may have it probably looked

bigger. (Indicating. )

O. Okay. What color was the barrel?

A. The inside was usually green or and then the

outside was I don't reaI1y remember, but dark

colored. It wasn't, 1ike, painted red or ye1Iow or

a. Okay. And did you ever put the food from the

bag into the barrel?

A. I think sometimes I wou1d, like I would have

to scoop it into the barrel.

a. Okay. And when you say "scoop it, " what did

you use to scoop witha

A. It was this sometimes it was a coffee cup

with this coffee not a coffee cup, but one of those

things you sometimes get coffee in.

O. Okay. A11 right. But a scoop of some kind?

A. Yeah.

O. All right. And then is that how you would get

the food into the buckets as well?

A. Yes.

O. And again, just for clarification, when you're

talking about a bucket, is it, you know, a little

bucket? How big was the bucket that you were putting

the food into?

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A. It was one of the pickle buckets. Like, the

bucket was about this high, I think, but I'm not for

sure. ( Indicating. )

O. Okay. And there were two of those buckets,

right, that you would use sometimes; is that right?

A. Yeah. Mainly I'd just use two with them.

Sometimes we had to use more, and then sometimes we use

cat litter buckets that we had emptied out.

O. And how many buckets would fit in your wagon?

A. Two, but you could like, if one of them was

halfway fu11, you could put the halfway ful1 one in

first and then you would put, 1ike, a fu11 one in or

another halfway ful1 one on top of it.

But if it was all the way ful1 and you

tried putting another bucket ofl, it wouldn't rea11y

work.

a. Now, on this day you said you took the buckets,

you fi11ed the buckets, and one or two buckets. You

don't remember, right?

A. No.

O. And then you took those and put them in your

wagon and you took the wagon to where the pigs were?

A. Correct.

O. Okay. Can you describe, when you get to the

outside the gate there, one of the pi-ctures showed a

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great big pipe sitting there, Tight?

A. YeS.

O. That goes across, and you described how you got

over that pipe.

A. Yes.

0. Okay. And you were able to do that fairly

easily, or was that rea11y hard?

A. ft was kind of hard. f well, kind of tough,

but I don't remember for sure.

O. I want to go back for just a minute. you said

that Fernando helped you more than one time; is that

right ?

A. Yes.

O. Okay. And do you remember Fernando helping you

and Ada more than one time?

A. No, f don't remember.

O. You don't remember or it didn't happen

A. I don't remember.

O. or something else? you don't remember? Is

that what you said? I'm sorry.

A. Yes.

a. And so you might have helped more than one

time?

A. Correct.

a. Okay. And do you know do you remember how

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you connected up with Fernando on that day?

A. NO.

0. You don't know where was he already at the

pigpen, do you remember?

A. No, but f remember that we were with

Fernando at a certain time, but I don't

O. Okay. Do you remember if you were with

Fernando when you came through the gate?

A. No.

a. No, I don't remember; is that right?

A. YeS.

0. Okay. And do you remember if you were with

Fernando, you and Ada were with Fernando, as you were

walking towards the pigpen?

A. No, f don't remember if it was just me or Ada

or if Fernando had joined us or I don't remember.

O. Okay. Kind of a big event as you're taki-ng

this wagon through getting over that pipe. Was

Fernando there that day to help you get over that

pipe ?

A. I don't think so, but I don't remember.

a. Okay. So we don't know exactly where

Fernando or when Fernando connected up with you; is that

right ?

A. Yes.

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59

O. You and your si ster get along pret,ty well ?

A. No.

O. Would it surprise you to say that that's the

same answer your sister gave?

A. No, wouldn' t surpr j-se me.

O. A11 right. Do you fight a 1ot?

A. Yeah.

O. Okay. What kind of things do you and your

sister do when you're running around the ranch?

A. Back then sometimes we would play tag. Usually

she was playing she would play with the owner's

daughter.

a. The owner. That was Paul, taght? Is that

correc t ?

A. Yes, if she was there. But sometimes she

wasn't. Or she would, 1ike, stay inside with Arlo or

something like that.

A. Okay. So on the day that this happened, do you

remember what you guys were doing when you weren't

feeding the pigs that day?

A. No. Besides coming up to the house and Ada

telling me what happened and going to get mom, f don't

remember.

a. Okay. So when did Ada te11 you that this

something had happened to her?

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A. f don't remember the time, but I remember we

were at the house. You can't rea11y see on any of the

pj-ctures, but there was, 1ike, a rocky like, it was

kind of like a step that you would step onto, and it was

kind of long and it had rocks on it. And she told me

about right when we were getting there.

O. Okay. And so where was your mom at that time?

A. In the packing house.

O. OkaY.

A. Pretty sure. But she may have been, 1ike,

outside or pretty sure, thougrh, she was in the

packing house.

O. Okay. And you said you told Ada that she

should te11 mom, right?

A. Correct.

O. And did Ada go straight over to the packing

house then, or did you guys go inside and play for a

while?

A. She went to find mom, and I just went into the

house, I think. But I don't remember anything after

that.

O. Okay. Did you ever go to the packing house

with Ada?

A. Yes.

a. Let me clarify. Did you ever go to the packing

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house after Ada told you on that same day?

A. With Ada, 1ike, going after that had happened?

O. Yeah.

A. Like, later that day?

O. yes.

A. f don't think so.

Wait, 1et me think. No.

O. Okay.

MR. GREEN: Bear with me for just a minute,

Jack.

THE COURT: Certainly. That means just

wait a 1itt1e bit.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

BY MR. GREEN:

O. ,fack, do you remember, when you got to the pigs

that dry, was the roof open or closed?

A. Don't remember.

O. When you went to the pigs to did the pigs

need water along with their food?

A. f don't think so.

a. You didn't give the pigs water if they didn't

have water?

A. I don't f think they had enough water, so

but f don't remember for sure. But f don' t think we had

to give them water.

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O. And in general did you have to give the pigs

water sometimes?

A. Yes, sometimes we did.

O. How did you do that?

A. We would get a hose. I pointed at it in one of

the pictures.

O. Okay.

A. And we would turn it oD, put it in there.

But sometimes we would have to get a bucket

and scoop it into the from the cow trough.

O. So to get water from the cow trough you would

carry a bucket over there?

A. Yeah. f would usually use the wagon, because

usually when they 1ike, if they had some water, I

would usually just if they had enough water to get

through the dry, then I would just leave it enough

water for a couple days, I mean just leave it.

But if they only had, like, enough if

they had no water, then we would give them water, oy if

they were just the hose was working and we had to

disconnect it the next day, so we would fill it. up to

the top.

O. Where did the hose connect to? Did it run a1l

the way back to the packing house or

A. I don't remember.

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O. When do you remember your mom and Ada going

to the doctor?

A. No. I -- no.

O. Okay. We11, let's think about that day for

just a second. Do you remember after Ada went to talk

to mom, do you remember anything else that happened

later that day?

A. No.

O. Okay. And where were you for the rest of the

day ?

A. Don't remember.

MR. GREEN: Okay. A11 right. No more

questions, Your Honor. Thank you.

THE COURT: A11 right, thank you.

MR. GREEN: Thank you, Jack.

THE COURT: Mr. Kohler, any redirect?

MR. KOHLER: Just briefJ.y, Your Honor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. KOHLER:

O. Hey, Jack. Now, you talked to Mr. Green and to

me a 1itt1e bit about not remembering when it was that

Fernando joined you at the pigpen. Is that an

accurate is that right?

A. Yes.

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O. Okay. So you don't remember when you met up

with Fernando that last day, right?

A. No.

0. Is there any question in your mind that

Fernando was at the pigpen with you and Ada?

A. f 'm just f don't know when and actua11y,

can you re-say that?

O. Sure.

A. Say it somewhere different?

O. I'11 just say it simply. Was Fernando at the

pigpen with you and Ada at some point?

A. YeS.

O. Now, were there any other Fernandos that worked

on the ranch?

A. What do you mean, Fernandos?

O. How many people named Fernando worked on that

ranch?

A. One,

O. And do you see that person named Fernando in

the courtroom here today?

A. I think so.

O. Can you go ahead and te11 us where that person

is and what that person is wearing?

A. Right there, I think. But two years, you can

look a Iot different, So I'm not for sure at all.

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O. Okay. Do you think that that's the person who

told you to told you to go get those scraps from the

ki t chen ?

A. If I could hear his voice I could te11.

THE COURT: Go on, Mr. Kohler.

MR. KOHLER: Your Honor, could f have a

s ec ond?

f have no further questions, Your Honor.

THE COURT: A11 right. Could I see the

attorneys real quickly.

(Bench conference outside the presence of

the jury and the court reporter.)

THE COURT: .Tack, I'rt going to ask you a

couple of questions in just a second.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

THE COURT: And then after f ask you these

guestions, I'fll going to see if the attorneys have any

more questions.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

,JURY OUESTIONS

THE COURT: When you were out at the pigpen

and you went to get the scraps from the cooler, did you

go to the cooler or to the slaughter house, do you

remember ?

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THE WITNESS: The slaughter house is prett,y

much it's the same building.

THE COURT: Same building?

THE WITNESS: Yeah.

THE COURT: Okay. Do you remember how long

it took you, how long you were gone from the pigpens

when you went to get those scraps?

THE WITNESS: Not for sure, but if I would

estimate I would say about ten minutes, probably, at the

most.

THE COURT: Did you stop anywhere or do

anything?

THE WITNESS: We11, I stopped at the

packing house to get the treats, but after that the only

other things that I had to stop for was to open the

gates and

THE COURT: You close those and open those

each time you go through?

THE WfTNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: Or open and close them.

So you didn't stop anywhere? You went, you

got the scraps, you went back out?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: Okay. When you were done at

t.he pigpen and you and Ada went back to the house when

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Ada talked to you, she to

do you remember if it was

sti11 shining?

THE WITNESS

THE COURT:

THE WITNESS

THE COURT:

what time?

THE WITNESS

time.

THE COURT:

was sunshiny or dark?

THE WITNESS

but I don't remember.

THE COURT:

THE WITNESS

THE COURT:

THE WITNESS

THE COURT:

have any questions.

Mr. Kohler?

MR. KOHLER:

fo11ow-up from the State.

THE COURT:

Mr. Green?

1d you what she said happened,

sti11 daylight? Was the sun

No.

Was it already dark?

I don't remember.

Oh, you just don't remember

Yes, I don't remember what

Okay. You don't remember if it

Sun might have been settirg,

Are you just not sure?

(Uo verbal response. )

fs that right?

Yes.

Let me see if the attorneys

Your Honor, I don't have any

All right, sir.

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MR. GREEN: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Jack, what f'm going to do is

te1; you you're done as a witness today, but the

attorneys may want you to come back, so please don't

talk to anybody, which includes Ada or your mother or

anybody e1se, about what you talked about today.

Okay ?

THE WITNESS: Okay.

THE COURT: Thank you. Go ahead.

Mr. Long?

MR. LONG: It' s Mr. Kohler' s witness.

THE COURT: Oh, I'rl sorry. Okay.

MR. KOHLER: Your Honor, dt this time the

State ca11s Detective Snyder with the Court's

permission.

THE COURT: A11 right, sir. Let me ask

you, we're not real close to the normal break time, but

will Detective Snyder's testimony take a substant.ial

amount of time, like 20, 30, 40 minutes?

MR. KOHLER: f anticipate it taking 30

at least 30 minutes.

THE COURT: At 1east, 30. Okay. Why don't

we go ahead and just take a break now and we'll come

back, and that way we don't have to break in the middle

of the testimony.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is now 10:10.

We're going to try to start again at 10:30, so that's a

20-minute break. Please remember the admonition.

Please do not discuss the case or the witnesses with

each other.

Go ahead and follow Todd out. We'11 see

you in about 20 mj-nutes.

We're on recess.

(Recessed f rom 10:13 a.m. until

l-0:39 a.m. The proceedings resumed with the presence of

the jury and Sabine Michael, court interpreter. )

THE COURT: Let's have the record show the

presence of the attorneys, the Defendant, Mr. Almanza,

and the jury is now back in the courtroom.

State ready to proceed, Mr. Kohler?

MR. KOHLER: Indeed, your Honor.

THE COURT: And is the Defendant ready to

proceed, Mr. Green?

MR. GREEN: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: A11 right. And you started to

call Detective Snyder?

MR. KOHLER: Detective Snyder, yes, sir.

THE COURT: Sir, if you wou1d, please.

(The witness, Detective Randall Snyder,

was duly sworn by the clerk of the court, according to

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law. )

THE COURT: A11 right, sir. Come on over

and have a seat.

A11 right, sir. Go ahead.

MR. KOHLER: Thank you, Your Honor.

DETECTIVE RANDALL SNYDER,

ca1led as a witness herein, having been first duly

sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

DTRECT EXAMINATf ON

BY MR. KOHLER:

a. Detective Snyder/ can you please spe11 your

last name and give us your badge number.

A. S-n-y-d-e-r, badge number 1193.

O. And how are you employed, sir?

A. Pinal County Sheriff 's Office.

O. And in what capacity are you employed with the

Pinal County Sheriff's Office?

A. Persons Cri-mes detective.

O. Now, let's talk a 1itt1e bit about your

training and experience. In order to become a police

officer, is there any special training and experience

that you need to have?

A. Yes.

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0. Can you tell us all about that.

A. I attended the Central Arizorra Regional Law

Officer Training Academy. I received approximately 500

hours of training over the course of the academy period

on various tactics and 1ega1 concepts, things like that.

O. And then following that, was there any field

training that you needed to complete?

A. Yes.

a. And te11 us about that.

A. I spent approximately three months with senior

officers and supervisors riding a1ong. That way they

could evaluate my performance and determine whether or

not I could be passed from the f ield traini-ng to be

allowed on my own.

O. Now, you mentioned that you're a Persons Crime

detective. fs that different from a patrol officer?

A. Yes, it is.

O. What kind of training do you have to, if dny,

undergo to become a detective?

A. Typically the new detectives are sent to a new

detective or new investigator school to get some

advanced training on the different types of

investigations that are conducted. I actually attended

two different new detective schools, one that I put

myself through and another one sponsored by my agency.

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 72 of 252
'7)

O. Now, what about any training that you have

after completing detective school? Have you had any?

A. Yes.

O. Could you please tel1 us about some of that

training.

A. Over the course of my t,ime as an investigator

and overall as a deputy, f've attended a little over 400

hours of various schools focused on child crime, sex

crimes, violent crimes, things like that, above and

beyond the mandatory trainings that were required to

attend each year to maintain our certification.

O. Other than your trainings that you,ve just

mentioned, do you have any special education as it

relates to law enforcement?

A. YeS.

O. Could you te11 us about that.

A. I have a bachelor's degree from Arizona State

university in justice studies. f 'm also a Iittle over

halfway done with my master's degree in criminal justice

f rom Ari-zona State.

A. Now, did you graduate with honors?

A. Yes, I did.

a. What were those honors?

A. Summa cum laude.

a. Now, te1l me about your any teaching

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experience that you have, first, specifically, to

training of officers.

A. I have a general instructor certification

through Arizona Peace Officer Standards and Training.

Util:-zrrrg that, I instructed at Central Arizona Regional

Law Officer Training Academy for approximately five

years on a variety of different topics.

I have also trained within my agency both

for our posse academy and for other individuals within,

and then I've also trained a couple of times two outside

agencies.

O. Now, do you have any teaching experience that

doesn't involve 1aw enforcement?

A. Yes.

O. Can you te11 us about that.

A. f'm a teaching instructor at Arizona State.

This is ffiy, I believe, third semester that I have

assisted in instructing undergraduate courses at Arizona

State University.

In addition, I have been asked by

professors at Arizona State to act as a guest lecturer

f or the ,fuvenile .fustice Program.

O. Were all the courses you taught in the Juvenile

'Justice Program?

A. No, sir. I've taught a variety of different

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courses.

O. Now, in al l thi s training and exper j- ence and

teaching that you've done, have you had any training

specifically on conducting of interviews?

A. Yes, I have.

O. Tel1 us what training that was.

A. I've attended trainings, not only on interview

and interrogation, but I have also attended the

eight-hour basic forensic interview training, the

40-hour advanced forensic interview training, several

other specific trainings regarding forensic interviewing

of extremely young children, mentally disabled, things

like that, and I have been to a couple of courses on

det.ecting deception through statement analysis.

0. Now, you mentioned forensic interview training

and interviewing of children. Have you had any training

specifically on the interviewing of suspects?

A. Yes,

O. And are those different than the forensic

interviewing trainings you've received?

A. Yes.

0. Now, in all that training and experience you've

mentioned, have you had any trainings on the collection

of physical evidence?

A. Yes.

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 75 of 252
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O. Can you te1l us about that, those trainings.

A. fn addition to the basic courses that we

receive in the academy and the additional j-nstruction

that we recej-ve as policies and procedures chang.e, I

have attended courses on DNA evidence, collection, and

analysis.

O. And do those courses include trai-ning on how to

properly and forensically do a scraping for DNA?

A. Yes.

O. Do they include any information on how to

properly preserve collected evidence?

A. YeS.

O. Now, are you familiar with the case involving a

person by the name of Fernando Almanza?

A. Yes.

O. Now, do you see that person here in the

courtroom today?

A. Yes, f do.

O. Can you please te1l us where that person is and

what that person is wearing?

A. Mr. Almanza is sitting over at the defense

table, it looks like a gray button-down shirt. He has

the microphone in his ear that speaker in his ear.

MR. KOHLER: Your Honor, could the record

reflect the witness has identified the Defendant?

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THE COURT: It may.

BY MR. KOHLER:

O. Now, are you familiar with the location ca11ed

the Double Check Ranch?

A. Yes, f am.

0. Could you te11 us where that is?

A. Double Check Ranch is off of Camino Rio in the

Dudleyville area up off of Highway J7, between Mammoth

and the Hayden-Winkelman area.

O. Vrlithin the boundaries of Pinal County?

A. Yes, it is.

O. Is that within the jurisdiction of this Court?

A. Yes, it is.

O. Now, I'd like you to walk us through your

involvement in the case against Mr. or in the

investigation of Fernando Almanza. Could you te11 us

what you did and when.

A. The initial contact that I received was on the

22nd of October. I was the on-call detective for the

O. I'm sorry. What year?

A. I'm sorry , 201"1 .

f was the on-cal1 detective at the time;

however, because I was out of state on a conference with

some coworkers, I had another detective that was

covering until I made it back into town.

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I received a phone call advising me of the

report that had been called in by Ms. Quinn. I advised

the deputy at that time to contact my coworker that was

covering as I wasn't in town yet, and then to keep me

apprised of the investigation as it progressed.

O. What did you what was your next involvement

in the case?

A. I received a contact from my sergeant,

Sergeant Jason Agresta, who advised me of the steps that

had been taken up to that point. He also advised me

that there was going to be an attempt-to-locate put out

for Mr. Almanza so that we could conduct additional

investigat j-on and interview.

O. And was Mr. Almanza located?

A. Yes, he was.

O. And was he where was he taken upon being

Iocated?

A. Mr. Almanza was located actually the next

morning on the 23rd, and he was taken by patrol deputies

to the San Manuel substation.

a. Now, describe the San Manuel substation for us.

A. The San Manuel substation is a joint government

building. It also houses the Motor Vehicle Division,

and f believe there's an office for Adult Probations in

there.

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We have the administrative office for our

regional lieutenant as well as a couple of offices

specifically for our deputies to have access to

computers, write reports, things like that, and then

there's a couple of holdings ce1ls for them while they

complete paperwork before they can drive individuals

down to be booked into the jai1.

a. Now, did you report to the or did you go to

the San Manuel substation on the 23rd?

A. Yes, I did.

A. And what was your purpose? What were you going

there for?

A. tnitially I wanted to make contact with

Mr. Almanza; f wanted to write and receive a search

warrant so that I could check to see if there was any

biological evidence available and then see if he was

willing to have an interview.

O. Now, you mentioned the word "search warrant"

and the writing of a search warrant. Is that something

that you were trained to do in that previous training

and experience we mentioned?

A. Yes.

O. And did you in fact do that in this case?

A. Yes.

O. And when you got to the San Manuel substation,

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)tr.

did you did you in fact take samples from

Mr. Almanza?

A. Yes.

O. Could you te11 us about that.

A. Basically after we received the search warrant,

we conducted a scraping of Mr. Almanza's fingernails.

Along with that we clipped his nails in case there was

any biological evidence either under or on his nai_ls.

We also took two buccal swabs that's a

swabbing of the inside of the cheeks so that we could

get a comparative DNA sample.

O. Now, can you describe for us what the

Defendant's hands looked like?

A. The nails were fairly ragged; there was some, r

guess, dirt or debris underneath his nai1s. They

appeared to be fairly clean for somebody that worked out

on a farm or worked with their hands. But other than

that, they appeared to be pretty consistent with

somebody who does manual 1abor.

a. Now, when you took scrapings, did you take

scrapings for each fingernailZ

A. There were scrapings taken from each nail on

both hands.

o. And you say there were scrapings taken. were

you supervising another officer who was doing this?

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A. I was.

O. And who was that officer?

A. Detective ,Juan Sanchez.

a. And how did it happen that Detective Sanchez

arrived at the scene?

A. Detective Sanchez was new Lo our unit. I was

assisting in his field training as a new investigator.

When I received contact that we needed to contact,

Mr. Almanza to conduct the investigation, I ca11ed

Detective Sanchez and asked him to respond to the

substation so that he could use part of this as a

learning exercise.

a. And did you observe Detective Sanchez taking

these scrapings?

A. Yes, I did.

a. And was his method of taking the scrapings

consistent with your training and experience?

A. Yes, it was.

a. Was there anything that happened while he was

taking these scrapings that alarmed you in any way?

A. NO.

O. Was there anything that happened while he was

taking those scrapings which would cause you to doubt

that those scrapings were taken properly?

A. No.

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O. Now, you also mentioned that clippings were

taken of those fingernails.

A. YeS.

0. Could you tel1 us the difference between

scrapings and clippings?

A. In scrapings we take an instrument and actually

clean out underneath the nai1, kind of like anybody

would if you have dirt or debris underneath your nail.

That was done over a piece of paper that was part of the

scrapings and clippings kit so that we knew that it

didn't have any prior items or any contaminants on it.

Each nail was scraped independently so that we could see

the collection.

And then after that, each nail was clipped.

And all of that was collected right there on the same

piece of paper so that we had all of the items together

and there wasn't any cross-contamination.

O. Now, you may have mentioned this already and I

may have missed it. Was there debris under each nailz

A. Yes, there was.

O. Now, at some point did you conduct an interview

with Mr. Almanza?

A. Yes, f did.

O. Prior to asking him any questions, is there a

procedure that you're trained to fo11ow?

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A. Yes, there is.

O. What is that procedure?

A. We provide each individual with their Miranda

advisements.

O. And roughly what is that Miranda advisement?

A. Any time that I provide Miranda to somebody, I

actually read it off of a card that I carry in my wallet

to make sure that I am consistent each time.

But essentially it's advising them of their

right to remain silent, that anything they say can and

will be used against them in a court of 1aw, that they

have the right to an attorney, and if they can't afford

an attorney, one can be appointed to them by the courts.

f then ask them whether they understand

those rights, and if they acknowledge that they

understand, f ask them would they like to answer any

questions at that time.

O. Now, do you remember what time it was when

you roughly what time it was when you began this

intervi ew?

A. If I remember correctly, we started the entire

process dt, I want to say it was about ten minutes to

1:00 in the afternoon. Something like that.

VrIe did the execution of the search warrant

and the scrapings and clippings before Miranda and

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before any questions, so it was probably, by that point,

maybe about 1:00 or 1:15 or something like that.

O. Detective Snyder, you mentioned what process

you fo11ow in providing someone with their Miranda

rights. Did you provide Mr. Almanza with his Miranda

rights in this case?

A. Yes.

a. Now, was there another officer who assisted you

in providing him his Miranda rights?

A. Yes.

O. Can you te11 us about that.

A. Mr. Almanza, upon initial contact, made it

clear to us that he understood spanish better than he

understood English. At that point r contacted our

patrol sergeant on duty, who is sergeant Louie vargas,

knowing that he is a spanish speaker, and asked that he

assist us in any sort of translati_on necessary.

A. Now, did it take a while for Sergeant Vargas to

arrive ?

A. I think it was about 15 minutes or so. He

wasn't too far away. r think he indicated later that he

was up in the Mammoth area when we called, so it wasn't

too far a drive.

O. Now, when he arrived, did you provide

Mr. Almanza with his Miranda rights in English?

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. A. Yes, f did.

O. And subsequent to providing him with those

rights in English, did sergeant vargas provi-de him with

his rights in Spanish?

A. Yes, he did.

a. And did the Defendant indicate to

Sergeant Vargas and to you that he understood?

A. Yes.

O. Now, did he also indicate that he wanted to

answer your questions?

A. Yes, he did.

o. At the time was he restrained? was Mr. Almanza

handcuffed or restrained?

A. No.

O. Was he in a jail cel1 of any kind?

A. No.

o. Describe the room where this all transpired.

A. The setup at the san Manuel substation, we have

our administrative office in one corner; the Department

of Motor vehicles takes up the middle section of the

building. we then have a couple of other offices on the

far side.

Kind of I guess it would be the

southeast corner of the building is kind of a wide-open

general area. Has access to doors from several

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different directions. Then in the middle of it there's

a fairly large table that can be used for meetings,

conferences, different activities. we were in that

large kind of common area at that table.

O. Now, you mentioned just now that while you were

waiting for sergeant vargas to arrive, there was a small

time lapse there?

A. YeS.

O. During that time were you conversing with the

Defendant at all?

A. r think we had a couple of exchanges regarding

questions that he had about why he was there, things

like that.

O. And was he asked any of those questions in

Engl i sh ?

A. Yes, he was.

O. And were your responses in English?

A. Yes.

a. Did he appear to you at that time to be abre to

converse passably in English?

A. Passably.

O. What do you mean by passably?

A. He has a fairly strong accent and so there were

times where r didn't quite understand him. There were

some words in English that he needed additional

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clarification for. I tried to speak slowly so that what

I was saying was clear, that f wasn't using language

that would be hard to translate.

a. Now, after you provided him with his Miranda

warnings in English and Spanish, did you then begin to

question him?

A. Yes, I did.

a. And did you question him in English or in

Spani sh?

A. In English.

a. And was he able to understand your questions?

A. I believe so.

a. And what makes you think that?

A. The responses that he provided to the questions

that I asked were appropriate for the context.

O. Now, did you start out asking him general

questions?

A. Yes.

a. Did you at some point ask him if he had any

hand in feeding the pigs on the Double Check Ranch?

A. Yes, I did.

MR. GREEN: Objection, Your Honor, for the

reasons previously explained.

THE COURT: Okay. And the ruling

previously issued remains, so the objection is

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overruled.

Go ahead.

BY MR. KOHLER:

O. And what was his response when you asked him if

he fed the pigs?

A. He stated that he did not feed the pigs.

O. Now, did you ask him who he knows on the Double

Check Ranch?

A. Yes.

O. And what was his response initially?

A. Nobody but Pab1o.

O. Did that story change?

A. Yes.

O. What did he say later?

A. A couple of sentences later he mentioned that

he had spoken to Katie on the day in question.

0. And by day in question, you mean the previous

day?

A. YeS.

O. Now, at some point you and he began discussing

Ada; is that accurate?

A. Yes.

O. And did he did he tell you that he had seen

Ada the previous day?

A. Yes.

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0. What did he te11 you about that, ot where did

he say he'd seen her?

A. Over by the pigs.

0. Did he describe what his interaction, his

initial f'm sorry. Did he initially describe an

interaction with Ada?

A. Yes.

a. What was that interaction?

A. He said he went over by the pigs to check on

them, to check on her, and that he picked her up.

O. Now, as you continued to talk about Ada, did

you ask Mr. Almanza if he had ever touched Ada?

A. Yes, I did.

a. And what was his response to that question?

A. No, he had never touched her.

O. Now, did you in asking about touching Ada,

did you ask the Defendant if he had ever given Ada a

hug ?

A. Yes, I did.

a. And do you remember what his initial response

was ?

A. He had never given her a hug.

O. Did that change?

A. Yes.

O. What did he state later?

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A. That he had hugged her approximately Lwo weeks

prior.

0. Did he say how many times?

A. One time.

O. Did you ask him if he had ever given Ada a

kiss?

A. Yes.

O. And what was his initial response?

A. No, he had never kissed her.

o. And a short time later did that answer change?

A. Yes.

O. What did he say then?

A. He stated that on the prior day he had kissed

her on the cheek

o- And did he describe their position when he

kissed her?

A. Yes.

a. What did he say?

A. He stated that they were standing over by the

pigpen, that they were in the process of watering the

pigs, he was standing behind her, and that he leaned

down and kissed her on the cheek.

o. Now, you initially when you initially asked

hi-m if he had ever touched her and he responded no

lm sorry. you initially asked him if he had ever

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touched her and he responded no; is t,hat correct?

A. Correct.

O. And then you mentioned skin ce11s; is that

accurate ?

A. YeS.

O. What was your purpose in mentioning skin ce11s

at that point in the interview?

A. At that point f was trying to sti11 determine

whether or not there had ever been any contact or

interaction. Based upon the scrapings that we had done,

I felt that there was some possibility of finding some

skin ce11s either on his hands or on Ada.

O. And after the mention of skin ce11s, that was

when he mentioned that he had kissed her; is that

accurate ?

A. It was about that same time that he had not

only mentioned kissing her but also touching her.

O. Now, at some point in that interview or shortly

after mentioning skin ce11s and talking about hugging

and kissing in that interview, did you ask him any

questions about his relationship with Ada's mother?

A. Yes.

O. And what was his response when you asked him

about that?

A. He indicated that they had a, I guess, friendly

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relationship, that they were had talked several

times.

o. Did he mention any comments that he had made to

Ada f'm sorry to Ada's mother?

A. He mentioned that at one point he had told her

that she was beautiful.

a. Now, in the intervj-ew af ter hearing that, did

you then talk about DNA?

A. Yes.

O. And what was your purpose in mentioning DNA at

this point?

A. At that point I wanted to see how he would

reacL in the possibility that there could be some DNA

either of hers on him or his on Ada.

a. And is that something that you were trained to

do in your j-nterrogation techniques?

A. Yes.

O. And just to be clear, dt that point you knew

nothing about whether there was any DNA evidence

available; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

O. Now, after you mentioned DNA, did the

Defendant's statement about having touched Ada having

never touched Ada change?

A. Yes.

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O. What did he say about having touched Ada after

you brought up DNA?

A. Initially he stated that he might have touched

her arm or shoulder when handing her the water hose,

said that there may have been some DNA on her dress from

when they hugged.

0. Now, he had previously told you that he hugged

Ada once two weeks prior?

A. Correct.

O. I'm sorry. Let me trace it all the way

through. He first told you that he had never hugged

Ada ?

A. Correct.

O. And then immediately following that he said

that he had hugged Ada once two weeks prior; is that

accurate ?

A. Correct.

O. And then after you mentioned DNA he said there

may have been something on her dress from when she

hugged him?

A. That's correct.

O. Did he make clear to you when she hugged him?

A. The day prior.

O. Now, you had asked him if he had I,m sorry.

Did you ask him if he had picked Ada up?

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A. Yes.

O. And what was his response?

A. tnitially his response was that he had never

picked her up.

O. Now, after you mentioned DNA, did that change?

A. Yes.

O. What was the answer then?

A. That he had picked her up and carried her some

distance across the ranch.

O. Did he describe to you the manner which he

carried her?

A. Yes.

0. Could you describe what he said for us.

A. He indicated that he put his hands underneath

her, that one hand was underneath her 1egs, kind of in

the area of the backs of her knees, and the other hand

was underneath her butt.

A. Now, you asked him at some point if it was

possible that his hands slipped; is that accurate?

A. That's correct.

a. And what was his response?

A. No, it wasn't possible.

O. And you also asked him or did you ask him if

he had put his hand on her butt?

A. Yes.

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0. And what, was his response?

A. No.

o. Did that response change throughout the course

of your interview?

A. YeS.

a. Describe what happened.

A. rnitially r had asked if he had ever touched

her butt, patted her on the butt in friendly fashion or

teasing fashion, anything like that. He indicated he

had not.

When we got to the point where he was

talking about picking her up and carrying her, that's

when he admitted that one hand had been on her butt when

he was carrying her.

O. Now, at some point or after talking about

DNA and after talking about him carrying her, after

talking after talking about his hand placement on her

butt, did you ask him if his finger might have gone

somewhere it shouldn' t?

A. Yes.

O. And what was his response to that?

A. Essentially he said maybe, but he didn't think

so.

0. Did he initially deny that his finger went

where did he initially deny that his finger went

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where it shouldn't?

A. Yes.

o. rmmediately following that denial, that first

denial, did he say anything that catches your memory?

A. Yes.

O. Could you te11 us what it was that he

volunteered at that point?

A. There were a couple of things that he said

throughout the course of the interview that seemed a

little striking, but at that particular point f seem to

think one of the statements that he made was about his

hand and the hand placement and that he didn't think

that any he didn't think there was any possibility

that his finger had slipped, but it might have.

o. At some point did he mention anything about

looking at his hands?

A. Yes, he did.

0. And te1l us about that.

A. After asking him about whether his hands had

slipped, he said, ,,But there was no b1ood.,,

a. Let me just make sure r understand. you asked

him if his hand slips, and does he deny at that point?

A. Yes.

O. And then what happens?

A. And then he indicates that he had looked at his

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hands and there was no b1ood.

O. Did you ask him about blood on his hands,

though ?

A. No, I didn't.

O. Had you been talking about his or blood on

his hands at any point?

A. No.

O. After talking about that, did he mention

anything about where Ada had been sitting?

A. Yes.

O. Where did he say Ada was sitting?

A. lnitially he indicated that Ada had sat down

next to him, then he, through the progression of the

questions, indicated that she had come and sat down on

his 1ap.

o. Towards the end of the interview, the Defendant

was asked if his hand could have slipped by accident,

right ?

A. Correct.

0. And what was his response?

A. He didn't think so, but maybe.

O. And then following that "but maybe, ,, he then

goes on to say that does he then go on to deny it,

that it happened?

A. Yes.

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o. As you closed your interview, did you have the

Defendant draw or diagram anything?

A. Yes.

O. Why don't you te1l us about that.

A. one technique that I've learned is that in

certain ci-rcumstances, you can have an individual use a

body drawing or something like that to help explain a

situation. r had Mr. Almanza put his hands down on a

piece of paper, sketched around them to show an outl_ine

of his hands, and then asked him if one of his hands

were to accidentally slip and penetrate into Ada's

vagina, whi-ch fi-nger might it have been.

o. And what was his response to that question?

A. It was the middle finger.

a. so just 1et me be clear here. you asked him,

'rf one of your hands slipped and. one of your fingers

went inside Ada's vagina, whi-ch one would it be,'? rs

that an accurate

A. That's correct.

A. And his response was,

middle one" ?

'ft would have been the

A. Yes.

O. Now, prior to your j-nterview with

did you have any indication, had there been

about the pigs or the pig shed that you,re

Mr. Almanza,

any talk

aware of?

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A. Are you asking if r had had any conversations

with him about the pigs?

O. No. Thank you for clarifying. What I,m asking

is, had your investigation given you any indication or

any had it pointed you in the direction of the pigpen

at all?

A. Prior to my contact with Mr. Almanza, the only

information that r had received was from patrol and some

of the information that they had received from the

doctors that had conducted the examination. off the top

of my head f don't recall the pigpen being specifically

mentioned anywhere, although it may have been.

O. Do you reca11 if there was any mention of Ada

being by the pigpen prior to your interview with

Almanza ?

A. I believe there might have been, but f don't

reca11 specific.

O. Is Almanza the first person to talk about

seeing Ada by the pigs?

A. f believe so.

MR. KOHLER: Excuse fte, your Honor, if I

could have a moment.

THE COURT: Go ahead, sir.

BY MR. KOHLER:

a. I'm going to show you an exhibit now. Show you

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what's been marked as State's Exhibit No. 1,L6.

Can you te11 us what you are looking at

there ?

A. It's labeled as Transcript of Recorded

fnterview of Fernando Almanza.

O. And is that have you seen that transcript

be fore ?

A. Yes, I have.

A. fs that a transcript of the interview that you

conducted with Fernando Almanza on october 23rd. of 2olt?

A. Yes, it is.

a. fs that the transcript of the interview that we

have been talking about here in court today?

A. Yes, it is.

O. Okay. Now, you mentioned some comments that

were made in that, and we're going to go through them

and we're going to flesh them out a 1itt1e bit.

Could you turn to page 23 of that

transcript. Page number should be at the top right

corner.

A. Okay.

O. Okay. And on lines I'm sorry. I said right

corner. I meant left corner.

Lines 1-5 to 1,6. Do you see those

statements there?

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A. This particular transcript doesn,t have the

Iine numbers indicated on it.

0. Could you can you count down to line 15?

A. Sure. Okay.

a. Now, we're talking there about or in that

part of the interview, are you talking about Ada?

A. yes.

o. And are those lines statements the Defendant

made about seeing Ada that day?

A. Yes.

a. What are those statements?

A. specifically line 15 is my question about

whether he had seen Ada ,,yesterday,' i-s the term

used the day prior to the interview, and Mr. Almanza

replies, "yeah, I see her in the pigs. ,,

a. And does the statement continue?

A. Yes.

O. What does it go on to say?

A. r asked Mr. Almanza to te11 me about it, and

his statements were, "r went to the pigs and r go check

over there and r go pick her up. That's it. And ilm

going lm going to the to the r went to my bike

and tried to tried to, " and then there's a word that

was indiscernible f or the transcript purpose, ,,and il m

going to my house, and that,s it.,

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O. Go ahead and go to page 29, if you would.

On page 29, lines 4 and 5, you asked her

do you ask Mr. Almanza if he moved her at all?

A. Yes, I did.

O. And go ahead and read his response.

A. I asked Mr. Almanza, I said, "Okay. you didn,t

do anything but talk to her? "

He said, "No. "

I said, "You didn't try to move her out of

the way or move her away from the pigs or anything like

that ? "

He said, "No. I put the water for the

pigs. "

O. Okay. On page 29, if you would count down to

lines 15 and L6, do you further clarify at that point

what you meant by touch her?

A. I ask, "But you never put your hands on her?,,

O. And what is his response?

A. "No. "

O. Let's move on to page 31. Line 1 of that page

should talk is that where you're talking to him about

hugs ?

A. Yes.

O. Could you go ahead and te11 us what you said

and what his response was regarding that?

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A. I asked Mr. Almanza, "Have you ever given her a

hug? "

He said, "No. "

I questioned, "No? "

And he said, " I give one hug that's going

two weeks," some indiscernible word, "two weeks I give

her a hug. "

O. Did you then ask him about giving her a kiss?

A. Yes.

O. Could you read for the jury that interaction.

A. I said, "Have you ever given her a kiss?,,

He said, "No. "

I said, "Not a kiss on the cheek or

anything? Cute 1itt1e girl like that, you never you

never gave her a 1itt1e kiss on the cheek?,,

And he said, "No. f didn,t touch her. "

MR. GREEN: Objection, Your Honor. That

does not completely sta te the communication.

THE COURT Would you like him to read it

verbatim? Is that the obj ection?

MR. GREEN I would like him to read it

Ehe parts that he's rea ding I would like to be read

verbatim.

THE COURT: Okay. For the record, that

objection is sustained.

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 103 of 252
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Please direct the witness to read it

direct, verbatim, that portion.

MR. KOHLER: Thank you, your Honor.

BY MR. KOHLER:

a. Detective Snyder, if you wou1d, please, as we

go through reading these, if you could just read them

verbatim from the transcript., I,d appreciate it.

A. Okay.

O. Thank you, sir. Go ahead. and do it again, this

time verbatim.

A. I said, "Not a kiss on the check or anything?

cute 1itt1e girl like that, you never you never gave

her a littIe kiss on the cheek? I mean, are you

kidding? "

He said, "No, I didn,t touch her. I didn't

touch the gir1. "

And then he goes on from there. Do you

want me to keep

0. Yes, please.

A. "One time when I go in the ranch and they were

there, " something indiscernible, "Katie, the mother,

Katie and baby was, " i_ndiscernible, " and that' s it. ,

O. And what do you ask next?

A. "'Okay, but you didn,t give her a little kiss on

the cheek yesterday?,,

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a. And's what his answer?

A. "Yeah, just one right here. That,s it. "

0. and when he said ,,right here, ', do you reca11

what he did?

A. Pointed to his cheek.

a. Now, look at line LL of that page.

Did you ask the Defendant how they were

positioned

A. Yes, f did.

O. when he gave her that kiss?

A. Yes.

0. Go ahead and read verbat,im the question and the

response.

A. "And what were you doing? Were you standing

uF, sitting down, or something else?,,

And Mr. Almanza replies, ', Stand. up. "

O. Now, on page 31 I'm sorry page 3.7 ,

looking at lines 9 and 10, in that portion are you

talking about the Def endant's relationship with Ad.a,s

mo ther ?

A. Yes.

O. Could you go ahead and read us your question

and her response?

A. Said, "Okay. What's your relationship like

with with Katie? "

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O. And I'm sorry, I said "her" response. What I

meant was go ahead and read his response.

A. His first response was, "Huh?"

I then asked, "How is your relationship

with Katie? "

He said, "Good."

O. Now, what did you understand him to mean by

that "huh" ?

A. That he was getting or asking for

clarification as to what my question was.

a. And did you then clarify the question?

A. I asked him again what the relationship was

1ike.

O. And his response was, "Good," yes?

A. Yes.

a. Now, does he later oD, on that same page,

did you ask him if he had had any arguments with

actua11y, the following 1ine, 'Did you have any

arguments about anything? " Is that what you asked?

A. Yes.

O. And what was his response?

A. "No. "

O. What was your next question?

A. 'Did you ever try and hit on her? "

a. And what was his response?

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A. He asked, "Who? "

And I clarif ied, ,,KErtie. "

His response was, ,,No. "

O. Okay. Let,s move on to page 46, line 21,. What

are you and Mr. Almanza speaking about then?

A. I'm sorry, which line?

O. Go ahead and count down to 21,.

A. I only have t9 lines on page 46. Am f on the

wrong page?

O. It's quite possible that I miscounted. On

page on your page 46, does it begin with a discussion

of DNA?

A. Yes.

a. Somewhere on that page do you talk about you

talk about does he change his story about where he

touched her at some point?

A. Yes.

o. could you go ahead and read that interaction to

us.

A. started out with a di-scussion of where DNA is

located, how it's passed. specifically r state that

"vfhen you put your fingers on her, when you when you

put your hands on her, it would pass DNA, okay, the skin

ce11s. "

Mr. Almanza says, ,'On the clothes, "

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something indiscernible, "on the c1othes,,' question.

o. Now, before you go oD, you made a statement to

him. You're describing DNA, "When you put your hands on

her, it would pass DNA on the skin cells. " rs that the

correct statement that you made?

A. That,s correct.

o. Now, based on your training and experience, how

accurate was that statement?

A. DNA can be located in the skin ce11s; however,

skin ceI1s are not the best locator for DNA because they

don't always adhere to everything. They,re easily

washed off, brushed off, things like that.

o. okay. Now, 1et's read a 1itt1e bit further.

What happened next?

A. My next statement or question was, ,,We11, and

other places. so you can't explain to us how we found

your DNA inside your body insid.e her body, ,, excuse

me.

Mr. Almanza replies, ,,you say you you

try to te11 me I did touch it. yeah, wait, I touch a

I touch the dress right here, and that,s all. That,s

ir. ,

MR. GREEN: Objection, your Honor. I,d

like him to re-read that. That is not accurate as to

what it says.

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THE COURT: A11 right. Go ahead and

re-read it.

THE WITNESS: Says, "You say you you

try to te11 me did I touch it. Yeah, wait, I touch a

f touch the dress right there, and that's all. That's

ir. "

THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Kohler.

MR. KOHLER: Thank you, Your Honor.

BY MR. KOHLER:

O. Now, Detective, you said you confronted him

with the fact that you said something about finding DNA

in Ada's body. Is that an accurate representation of

what you saidz

A. That's correct.

O. And had you found any DNA in Ada's body at that

point ?

A. No.

0. So were you lying to him?

A. YeS.

O. And is that something that you that you're

trained to do in your interrogation schools?

A. Yes -

a. And what's the purpose of that method of

interrogation ?

A. At different times you can confront individuals

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with information that may not be entirely accurate to

gauge their reaction to it. fn a 1ot of circumstances

iL's able to elicit a reaction from an individual about

information that they might otherwise want to try and

conceal .

a. And in this case did that ruse elicit a

reaction?

A. He essentially indicated that yes, he had

touched her dress, which is more than he had indicated

he had touched prior to that.

A.

o.

A.

o.

line 4.

a. Okay. Go ahead and go to

is that was 46 where you talked

immediately following that on page

are you guys talking about there?

A. It started out Mr. Almanza

f told you all the time f went over

me a hug, and that,s it. ,

Yes, it did.

And what was that reaction?

f f I'm counting

Following that

This is, again,

page 47. And this

about DNA, so

4'l , on line 11 , what

said, "No, f te11

there and Ada gave

a. Now, later on on that page T'm sorry. So

line L1- he's talking about her giving him a hug and

that' s it, right?

down correctly, yes.

on page 48, go ahead and go to

af ter you've spoken about the

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DNA, right?

A. Yes.

0. What does he say then?

A. Just above line 4, or at, least on my

transcript, Mr. Almanza says, "f don,t know. Like f

said, like r teI1 you, r placed a hand sometimes. ,,

A. What is your response?

A. "You you touched her hand? "

MR. GREEN: your Honor, f'm going to object

at this point in time. r've acquiesced up to this

point, but r believe that if the state is going to use

this information as to this interview, the best evidence

rule would require that it be the tape and the recording

itself. By reading the transcript your Honor, the

inflections

MR. KOHLER: your Honor, ffidy we approach?

THE COURT: Hold on.

MR. GREEN: -- inflections, the voices, are

not represented in this flat transcript.

THE COURT: Let's get up, over here.

Jackie, in the corner, please.

(Sidebar conference outside the presence of

the jury. )

THE COURT: You made your obj ection.

Make your response.

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MR. KOHLER: My response is, your Honor,

that the right now we're talking about statements

made by the Defendant. The defense is perfectly capable

of asking the witness about inflection, about anything

like that that he wants to ask, and then he can also

give a 1itt1e put his client on the stand, talk about

his inflection at the time.

There are things in that interview which

are properly not admissible and during the entire

interview would not serve the purpose of it would

confuse the jury and not clarify any of the issues in

the tria1.

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

the whole interview be

parts that he's referri

rather than the transcr

transcript is not an ac

conversation was 1ike.

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

fact acquiesced in the

transcript. You have

only desire is to get

Okay.

Your Honor, I'fir not aski_ng that

played. f'm asking that the

ng to be identified and played

ipt being used, because the

curate reflection of what the

Okay. Is that it?

That's it.

Okay. We11, you'

reading of portions

available as far as

ve already in

of the

if your

comments about inflection from

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those particular passages and not to play the entire

tape recording, then you are going to have to do it on

cross-examination.

So your objection is overruled, but you

certainly on cross have a right to talk to him about the

issues of inflection and meaning if you wish.

MR. GREEN We11, and again, fly objection,

the best evidence.

Okay.

Which this is not.

I'm going to overrule you

Your Honor, is based on

acquiesced by not objecting to

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

because you've already

the earlier use of it a

MR. GREEN

t this point. Okay?

Uh-huh.

(The proceedings resumed with the presence

of the jury.)

THE COURT: For the ruling in open court,

the objection is overruled.

Okay, Mr. Kohler. Proceed.

MR. KOHLER: Thank you, Your Honor.

BY MR. KOHLER:

O. You're on page 50, right?

A. 48.

O. Why don't we go ahead and go ahead and move

on to page 50.

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A. Okay

0. About five lines up from the bottom I,m

sorry, six lines up from the bottom there, seven Iines,

there' s a statement made by him that begins, " r hold her

like this. " Have you found that?

A. Yes.

a. Go ahead and move up two statements there to

your question begi_nning, "And when you picked her up.,'

A. Okay.

O. Have you seen that there?

A. Yes.

a. Could you read that, that segment for us?

A. "And when you picked her uF, where were your

hands ? "

Mr. Almanza replies, ,Huh?,

And I ask, "How how were you holding

her? "

0. And what is his response?

A. "I hold her like this, like that. I pick her

up like that and r hold her 1eg right here, right here

like this. "

a. Now, do you recal1 during this int.erview if he

was making any gestures that coincide with these

statements?

A. Yes.

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O. And describe for us how he was holding his

hands. What was he what was he describing?

A. He had his hands kind of like this, kind of a

basket carry, ot r guess the best way r can articulate

my thought of it is as you would carry somebody, carry

the bride over the threshold or something like that, you

have them scooped up in your arms like this.

(Indicating. )

O. And then later on on that same page, you ask

him if he had his hands under her legs when he picked

her up; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

O. And what is his response?

A. The question was, ',So when you picked her up,

you had your hands under her legs?"

His response was, "Right here, ,, and then he

made a comment that was undiscernible on the transcript.

O. Okay. Now, moving on to page 59 of this

intervi ew

A. Okay.

a. towards the end of that page there,s a

portion beginning, "Did you touch her butt when you

picked her tlp." Is that a question you made?

A. Yes -

O. Could you go ahead and read those, that segment

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for us?

A. I asked, "Did you touch her butt when you

picked her up? "

Mr . Alman za' s response was , 

,'Uh-huh,, 

- -

that's how i-t's phrased on the transcript there was

something undiscernible, he said, ',and that,s it. '

a. Do you clarify in your next question?

A. I state, "Okay. Is it possible that when you

picked her up and your hand touched her butt? you've

got big hands. "

a. And what's Almanza's response?

A. "Yeah. "

a. Now, there's a comment that you make on the

beginning of page 60, the f irst porti-on there. could

you go ahead and read that for us?

A. "rs it possible your finger might have gone the

wrong place? "

a. Go ahead and read the response and go ahead

and read the response.

A. He said, ,,No. "

O. What did you then ask?

A. I said, "Not possible?,,

O. And the response?

A. He said, ',My f inger,,, and then the next

statement was indiscernible.

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O. And then what do you say?

A. I say, "Okay."

O. What does Mr. Almanza say next?

A. "And I I pick her up, like I said, and I

leave her down. "

0. And your response?

A. " Okay. "

O. What did he say after that?

A. "But I not see blood or nothing.',

A. Going to go ahead and show you a few photos

now, Detecti-ve, if that's all right with you.

A. Okay

O. Did you take any photographs the day of that

intervi ew?

A. Yes.

O. What did you take photographs of?

A. I took photographs of Mr. Almanza and his

hands.

a. Eventually here I'm going to be showing you

what's been marked as State,s Exhibit No. 7 6.

Do you recognize that photo?

A. Yes, I do.

O. Can you te11 us who that's a photo of?

A. Mr. Almanza.

O. fs that the photo that you took of Mr. Almanza

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on the day of this interview?

A. Yes, it is.

O. Now, you mentioned that you also took other

photos that day. Did you take photos of his hands?

A. Yes, I did.

0. Showing what's been marked as State's

Exhibit No. 77 .

What are we looking at there?

A. That's Mr. Almanza's hands placed on the tab1e.

a. Now, were these photos taken before or after

the clippings and scrapings were taken?

A. Before.

O. And could you describe for us the hands that

you see in that picture? And if you want a closer look,

you've got the screen behind you as we1l.

A. Mr. Almanza's hands appear to be fairly clean

considering he works in fields, works around animals,

things like that. However, he's notice, the nails

are pretty ragged, like they've been torn, not cut.

They certainly haven't been filed or anything like that.

And you can see that there's some injuries to his

fingers, things like that, some dirt underneath the

nai1s.

O. f 'm showing you what's been marked as State's

Exhibit No. 78. What are we looking at there?

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A. That's the palms of his hands. Basically he

just rotated them to look at the undersides to see,

again, cleanliness, things like that.

O. Going to go ahead and show you what's been

admitted as Exhibit No. 79.

What are we looking at there?

A. That's a close-up of Mr. Almanza's right hand.

0. In that picture are you able to see the nails

more clearly?

A. A little bit, yes.

O. I'm going to show you Exhibit No. 80 at this

time.

What are we looking at there?

A. Mr. Almanza's left hand.

O. And again, in that picture are we able to see

the nails?

A. Yes.

O. What are we looking at in Exhibit No. 81?

A. Mr. Almanza's right pa1m.

O. And showing you now what's Exhibit No. 82.

What are we looking at there?

A. Mr. Almanza's left pa1m.

O. Now, at some point during your investigation

did you take pictures of anything else?

A. Yes.

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O. At some point did you

underwear that Ada was wearing

A. Yes.

take pictures of

on that day in question?

t underwear?

of the sexual

a.

A.

And how did you come by tha

They were collected as part

assault exami-nation.

O. And did you retrieve them from the evidence

locker where they were stored?

A. Yes, I did.

0. And what did you do with them at that point?

A. At that point I checked to make sure that all

of the seals were intact to make sure that the underwear

hadn't been tampered with. r then went ahead and opened

up the bag that they were in, utiltzlr.g gloves to make

sure that r didn't contaminate the underwear at all.

I pu11ed them out, took photographs, not

only of the outer packaging with the sea1s, but after

opening it, I took photographs of the underwear, front,

back, bottom, and then turned them inside out and took

pictures of the inside.

O. I'm showing you what's been marked as State's

Exhibit No. 83.

What are we looking at there?

A. That's a picture of the underwear after they've

been removed from the evidence packaging.

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a. And removed by you from the evidence packaging?

A. Yes.

O. Showing you what,s been marked as State,s

Exhibit No. 84.

Is that the same pair of underwear?

A. Yes.

O. Now, when you were taking photos of this

underwear, did you take photos of a lot of different

angles ?

A. Yes, I did.

A. What was your purpose there?

A. To make sure that we could document whether or

not there was any damage to the underwear, any tears,

snags, rips, ho1es, any kind of anything that wasn't

on the underwear when they were brand new.

O. Now, looking at it from the angle displayed in

Exhibit 84, are there any ho1es, tears, rips, snares, or

anything on that underwear that you can see?

A. No.

a. Showing you what,s been marked as

Exhibit No. 86.

What are we looking at there?

A. That's a close-up of the crotch area of the

underwear.

O. And from that angle do you see any holes,

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 121 of 252
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tears, or marks of any kind?

A. No.

O. Showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 86.

What portion of the underwear are we

looking at there?

A. Again

O. I'm sorry , 87 .

A. Again, it's a close-up of the crotch area, more

from I guess it would be the backside. The top of

the picture would be the crotch area, and then that

would be kind of the seam where they ro11 under where

her butt would be.

O. And is there a discoloration in the center of

the underwear at this point?

A. YeS.

a. f 'm showing you what's been marked as oh,

I'm sorry. And in that go back to it.

In the photograph there, can you do you

note any tears, rips, abrasions, anything, any marks of

any any irregularities of any kind?

A. No.

O. Showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 88.

There's some drawing on that.. Do you know

what that drawing is?

A. I believe those are the markings that were made

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by Department of public safety after they had done their

analysis of the underwear.

0. And in that photo, what are we looking at?

A. The underwear have been turned inside out, and

it's the front crotch area.

O. Are there any tears, rips, snags , or mends i_n

that underwear anywhere?

A. No.

O. Showing you what's been marked as

Exhibi t No . 91" .

What are we looking at there?

A. close-up of the same area of the und.erwear.

O. And in that close-up are there any tears, rips,

shreds, snagts, ot mends that you are aware of ?

A. No.

O. Sorry. f 'm showing you what's been marked as

State's Exhibit No. 93 .

fs that another angle of the interior of

the underwear?

A. Yes.

o. And is that the front crotch, the back crotch,

or something else?

A. Appears to be the front crotch.

o. And from that picture from that picture, do

you note any snares, tears, rips, snagt s , or mends?

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A. No.

O. Showing you what,s been marked as State,s as

Exhibit 97 .

Can you tel1 us what that is?

A. That would be the exterior of the underwear on

the backside.

O. And in that picture do you see any tears,

shreds, rips, mends, or snags?

A. NO.

O. What are we looking at there? That's

Exhibit No. 99 .

A. ft would be a close-up of the exterior of the

crotch area.

O. And from that angle in that picture, do you see

any tears, rips, mends, shreds, snags?

A. No.

O. Now, other than pictures of Mr. Almanza's hands

and pictures of Ada's underwear, you took some other

photos, right?

A. Yes.

O. Did you take a lot of the photos we have been

seeing with other witnesses in this trial?

A. Yes.

a. And were those photos of the ranch?

A. Yes.

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O. Now, I'm going to show you what's been marked

as State's Exhibit No. 106.

THE COURT: Okay, hold on just a minute.

Let's let them change.

(The proceedings resumed with the presence

of Danira Marinez, court interpreter.)

BY MR. KOHLER:

O. Can you te11 us what we're looking at there in

that picture?

A. While we were walking around the ranch,

Ms. Quinn was showing us the areas as I was

photographing. At one point Ms. Quinn brushed against

or got too close to one of the barbs on a piece of

barbed-wired fence and scratched her arm. Took a

photograph of what a barbed-wire injury looked 1ike.

O. I'm going to show you another exhibit here I'd

like you to identify for us.

Detective, f 'flI showing you what's been

marked as State's Exhibit No. 1-268. Go ahead and glove

up.

A. Okay.

a. Could you go ahead and open the exhibit that

I've given you and pu11 out what's contained inside.

Can you te11 us what that is?

A. These are the underwear that were collected

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 125 of 252
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from Ada during the course of the sex assault exam.

O. Now, we've talked a lot about what you could

see from the photos. Could you go ahead and examine

that here before us and look up when you've had a chance

to look it overA. Okay.

O. Are there any rips in that, underwear?

A. No.

O. Any tears?

A. No.

O. Any shreds?

A. No.

O. Any snags?

A. NO.

O. Any mends?

A. No.

a. Is that underwear consistent with the

photographs that we've already looked through in the

other exhibits?

A. Yes.

O. Now, were you present you can go ahead and

put that back in and take the gloves off now.

Were you present during an interview of Ada

that was conducted at the Tucson Family Advocacy center?

A. Yes.

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O. And did you witness that interview?

A. Yes, f did.

O. How does that work? Were you in the room with

her ?

A. No. We're actua11y, there,s a separate room

down the hallway from the actual interview rooms that

has a couple of monitors on it where we have sight and

sound access, but we're not actually in the room for the

intervi ew .

A. Now, was that interview video recorded?

A. Yes, it was.

O. And were you able to obtain a copy of the video

recording of that interview?

A. Yes.

O. And what did you do with that copy?

A. One copy they actua11y, I think, gave me two

disks that day. one copy was placed into evidence, and

the other one has been maintained in my file for review.

O. f 'm showing you what's been marked as

Exhibit No. 1"1-9.

Go ahead and look at this and te11 us what

it is.

A. Exterior packaging is our standard packaging

for items of evidence. shows the item number as well as

the evidence seals that show that it was sealed

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completely.

Tnside is a DVD with the markings on it

that indicate it was the name of the interviewee and the

report number and the date of interview.

a. Is that disk there the interview that a

recording of the interview that you impounded of Ada's?

A. Yes.

a. That was a horrible question. Let me try it

again.

Is that DVD a video recording of Ada's

intervi ew?

A. Yes.

O. Did you witness that interview?

A. YeS.

O. And does that video recording fairly and

accurately represent the events that transpired. in that

intervi ew?

A. Yes.

MR. KOHLER: Your Honor, dt this time the

State moves to admit the State's Exhibit or f,m

sorry Exhibi t 1-19 .

THE COURT: A11 right. Mr. Green?

MR. GREEN: Your Honor, I object to its

admission.

THE COURT: A11 right. Subject to our

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prior discussion and the Court's ruling, the objection

will be overruled.

1-19 will be marked as admitted and admitted

for the reasons previously stated.

MR. KOHLER: Your Honor, frdy we approach?

THE COURT: You might, Lf you wish.

MR. KOHLER: Thank you, sir.

THE COURT: Bring Mr. Green with you.

(Bench conference outside the presence of

the jury and the court reporter.)

THE COURT: As a matter of timing, just

trying to keep things on schedule, we're going to go

ahead and take the lunch break now. rt is about quarter

of call it ten of l-2:00. I would like to have you

all back here in the courtroom by 1:15 at the latest, so

please be back in the jury assembly room by j_ o'clock,

and I will ask the attorneys to please be in the

courtroom at 1- o ' c lock .

With that, remember the admonition. Fo11ow

Todd out. Enjoy your lunch, and I'11 see you in a

1irr1e bir.

(Recessed from 1,1-:49 a.m. until 1:06 p.m.

The proceedings resumed outside the presence of the

jury. )

THE COURT: Let's have the record show the

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attorneys are present, the Defendant is present. The

jury is not here. They're stiI1 on their lunch break.

And r had told the attorneys r would like to talk to

them at L o'c1ock.

Okay. The thing f was waiting for, the

State is going to p1ay, I suspect, what's been marked

Exhibit 129, the audio recording.

AS

Limiting instruction? Do we get one?

MR. LONG: I have a proposed one that I

showed Mr. Green.

And Judge, for scheduling purposes, we

would like to maybe withhold playing the tape today and

wait until tomorrow, simply because of the length of

testimony that Detective snyder has been going through.

we're almost done and he can begin cross, but we have

,lohn Boggs, who has traveled up from superior and is

waiting, has been waiting all morning, and Dr. K1ein,

who is from Tucson and is not able to come back.

So to ensure that we get those witnesses

ofl, what I'd like to do is continue with

Detective snyder. He's obviously laid the foundation,

the tape is admitted. rt's not something that requires

commentary or examination by Detective snyder. And then

we would like to play the tape if there,s time at the

end of the day after those two witnesses or sometime

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 130 of 252
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tomorrow.

THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Green, any problem

with that, other than your objection to playing it at

all?

MR. GREEN: I'm not sure is

Detective Snyder coming back tomorrow, your Honor?

THE COURT: We11, if you think he's

necessary for the purpose of playing it. As f

understand, the intent is to get his direct, cross, and

redirect done today so we can move on to the other

witnesses.

MR. GREEN

would be to wait until

cross at that point in

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

is evidently part of De

Honor.

We11, Your Honor, ffiy preference

they're done with him and do my

time, so

I'm missing you entirely.

We1I, if this playing the CD

tective Snyder's testimony, your

THE COURT: We11, f think what Mr. Long is

proposing is it just simply be an independent playing

now that it's been admitted. That I suppose you

could always recaIl Detective snyder if you want to ask

him about the tape or the recording after it,s played.

Okay?

MR. GREEN That's fine, Your Honor.

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THE COURT: We11, and I think that's

probably a better way to do it.

Mr. Long said he shared t.his limiting

instruction with you. Did you have a chance to look at

ir?

MR. GREEN: I did, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And again, your objection

stands, Ry ruling stands. What do you say about the

limiting instruction?

MR. GREEN: Your Honor, it's f have no

problem with it, Your Honor. It's not very limiting,

but

THE COURT

to playing it at all

We11, subject to your objection

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

language for you?

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

I'11 read that before i

of the day today or tom

Detective Snyder right

back, and then move on

MR. LONG:

orrow mornr_ng.

So we're going to start and finish with

Right.

is that satisfactory

Yes, Your Honor.

Okay. I'11 put that aside and

t's played, whether it's the end

after as soon as the jury gets

to Mr. Boggs or Dr. Klein?

I believe we'11 go Mr. Boggs and

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then end with Dr. K1ein.

THE COURT

snags with Mr. Boggs, a

have, d11 the criminal

Defendant ?

MR. LONG:

THE COURT

Defendant.

MR. LONG :

THE COURT

MR. LONG:

of; we have a copy of i

I guess I

THE COURT

Okay. So we don't run into any

ny plea agreements, whatever you

history has been shared with the

With defense counsel, yes.

Yeah, defense counsel,

Yes, it' s been disclosed.

Okay.

The plea agreement he has a copy

t that's marked.

would like to address that, is

Sure.

MR. LONG: -- the specific charge of is

unlawful imprisonment, which is a DV offense. The state

would request that that portion be redacted and any

any comments in the plea regarding a domestic violence

claim, that the state submits that would be unduly

prejudicial and not relevant to him as a witness.

THE COURT: Depends on what he was charged

with. what was he originally charged with? or is that

the original charge?

MR. LONG: f know it was amended, .Tudge.

It's not the original charge.

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But I submit that the classification would

be the relevant and critical component, not the charge,

so if it was a reduction by two or three or whatever

that was, that that would be the portion that would be

irrelevant. But the fact that it's a

domestic-violence-related offense is unduly prejudicial

and not relevant to credibility or to impeachment.

THE COURT: We11, the classification

reduction alone is not necessarily all that's necessary.

For example, if you had an armed robbery that you

reduced to an unlawful i-mprisonment, might be nice to

know that. That's a significant change.

I don't know what it is. If you're asking

simply to redact the a1lusion, the reference to domestic

violence, Tdther than just the name of whatever he pled

to and it may be 1ogica1. For example, if he was

charged with kidnapping and he pled to unlawful

imprisonment, it's a very logical reduction.

It doesn't tel1 you normally on page 2 the

charge is dismissed, or it just says the count number?

MR. LONG: ft's just it does say there

were multiple counts, Counts 1,3, 4,5, and 6 were

dismissed, and then he pled to Count 2.

THE COURT: Okay. fs your real concern of

what you're stating is prejudicial is the fact that it's

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domestic violence?

MR. LONG: It is. That's primarily the

portion that I would ask to be redacted.

THE COURT: Okay, 1et's focus on that.

Mr. Green, doy problem with that?

MR. GREEN: Your Honor, f would argue that

domestic violence may very well be a crime of and f'm

going to get the language wrong., your Honor, but

THE COURT: Shoot.

MR. GREEN: -- that impinges on his

credibility and impinges on his honesty, your Honor.

THE COURT: Meaning it may have some

special reflection on credibility because it,s d.omestic

violence as opposed to any other unlawful imprisonment?

fs that your

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

Yeah.

logic ?

That' s my argument, yes.

Okay. Can you, for the sake of

making your own record, can you te1l me how that adds

or anything to the issue of credibility based on a

Class 6 felony conviction?

Todd, why don,t you bring them up and put

them in the jury room as soon as they're a1r gathered.

THE BAILIFF: They're in the jury room.

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THE COURT: Oh, they're here? Okay, good.

MR. GREEN: Your Honor, only in that it's

the type of crime that is it's a crime involving a

relationship, and as such, it lend.s itself to deceit,

deception, things like that during that could or

could not be part of the cause of that domestic

violence.

THE COURT: I've seen hundreds of domestic

violence cases that didn't i-nvolve deception of any

kind.

And it's true, society, €rt least the way

i t ' s been portrayed, domestic violence carr j-es a special

cachet of egregiousness, disgust, r suppose, whatever

you want to call it. so there's a domestic violence

a1one, whether it's whatever 1eve1 offense it is,

adds a special sense of badness to it. And it's

probably appropriate to keep it out as long as you know

and the jury knows that he had however many felonies

he had charged, he ended up with one class 6 felony.

And r have no idea what the other three were, but you

certainly have a right to explore that.

Did you get a copy of his indictment so you

know what was

MR. GREEN: Your Honor, I'fiI not f inding his

indictment, Your Honor. r may very well have, but r

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cert,ainly don't have it, handy.

THE COURT

f j-ve wel1, three min

MR. LONG:

THE COURT

MR. LONG:

THE COURT

MR. LONG:

Yeah, 237,,Judge . 201,2

We11, I've got theoretically

utes. Te11 me the case number.

cR20L200273.

Okay.

I'm sorry, 237 .

237 ?

Yeah. Did I transpose those?

THE COURT Okay. Mr. Green, don,t bother.

ilm going to print out a copy of the indictment for both

of you, and we'11 start in about five minutes.

Anything e1se, Mr. Long?

MR. LONG : .fus t again, to c lari f y, so when

we talked about the domestic violence, f would also

further move that the charge itself is redacted, as well

as the charges in the indictment be redacted. My

position is that historically, absent there being some

fraud or something that directly relates to honesty,

that the nature of the offense itself is generally

sanitized.

THE COURT: You don't need to respond.

That request is denied. Domestic violence

will be removed. He can talk about what was pled down

to what without any reference to the egregiousness of it

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being a domestic violence offense.

MR. GREEN: That's fine, your Honor.

MR. LONG: Or the underlying facts, Judge,

correct ?

THE COURT: Pardon?

MR. LONG: Or the underlying facts?

THE COURT: Or the underlying facts.

They're just simply not unless they the charges

see, and this is speaking in the dark.

Unless the charges are credibility related

charges, you're dismissing a burglary that might have,

you know, that kind of moral turpitude connection to it,

unless that's a relevant factor, yeah, any of the

underlying factors are not relevant to whether he,s

telling the truth or not. what is is that he got the

Class 6 deal for four felonies.

Okay. Anything else?

MR. LONG: No, sir.

THE COURT: How about you?

MR. GREEN: No, your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. About five minutes.

(Recessed from 1,:1,6 p.m. until- 1_:2t p.m.

The proceedings resumed. with the presence of the jury.)

THE COURT: Let,s have the record show the

attorneys, the Defendant, Mr. Almanza, and the jury are

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 138 of 252
138

now back in the courtroom after the lunch recess.

fs the State ready to proceed, Mr. Kohler?

MR. KOHLER: We are indeed, your Honor.

THE COURT: Thank you, sir.

And Mr. Green, are you ready to proceed?

MR. GREEN: f dfr, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, sir.

Let's show the witness is back on the

witness stand.

And just before we get started, Todd, lf

you wou1d, please.

Attorneys, the document we discussed just

before the jury came in, f have a copy for each of you

of that document. And Mr. Long and Mr. Green, you will

have further discussions before the relevant witness is

ca11ed.

Okay. Mr. Kohler, go ahead.

MR. KOHLER: Thank you, your Honor.

BY MR. KOHLER:

O. Detective Snyder, f 'fll going to hand you what's

been marked as Exhibit No. 1,23. can you terl us what

t,hat i s ?

A. Listed as Evidence Number LL93-7 , it's the

internal envelope that's from the southern Arizona

center Against sexual Assault, and inside of that is

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another envelope which protects the cD that r received.

O. And from whom did you receive that CD?

A. From the southern Arizona center Against sexual_

Violence.

O. And are you aware of what that DVD or CD

contains ?

A. Yes.

a. What is that?

A. This has colposcope photos that were obtained

during the examination of Ada.

O. Can you te11 the jury what a colposcope photo

is?

A. Colposcope is a medical instrument that is

frequently used during sexual assault examinations to

obtain forensic evidence of any sort of injury. This

particular disk obtained four or contains four

photographs that were obtained during the course of that

examination.

O. And once you received that disk, what did you

do with ir?

A. It was booked into evidence.

O. Now, did you make a copy of that disk and

provide it to anyone?

A. Yes.

a. To whom?

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A. To ,Jackie Hess.

O. And are you familiar with what,Jackie Hess is

or what she does?

A. She is a nurse examiner for phoenix Children's

Hospital in conjunction with ChildHelp.

O. And did anyone besides you have care and

custody of that disk in between transporting it from

evidence to Ms. Hess?

A. NO.

0. And how are you able to make that assertion?

A. It was in my care and control until I booked it

into evidence. At that point r filled out a chain of

custody, both there was a partial chain of custody

that was on the envelope that I signed over when I

received it from the individual at the center, and then

r fi11ed out another chain of custody when f booked it

into evidence, and that shows every time that it's been

accessed.

O. And were you able to provide a copy of that to

Ms. Hess?

A. YeS.

O. Was the copy that you provided in an unaltered

f orm?

A. Yes.

a. Was that copy in the same form that you

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received it from the Tucson lm sorry, from which

location?

A. f believe the southern Arizona center Against

Sexual Assault.

0. was that disk in the same conditi-on as the one

that you received from Southern Arizona

A. Yes.

O. Thank you.

Now, you're the case agent on this case.

Is that an accurate assertion ?

A. Yes.

a. And what is the responsibility of the case

agent as it relates to assembly of evidence and police

reports ?

A. ft's my job as the case agent not only to be

aware of the investigation as it goes on and to conduct

the majority of the investigation, but also to be aware

of other parts of the investigation that have taken

p1ace, to make sure that r have copies of those reports

and r have reviewed them, and to be aware of any

evidentiary items that have been obtained.

o. were you familiar with all aspects of this

investigation as it was going forward?

A. For the most part, y€s.

o. At what point in the investigation or at what

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point in time did you become aware that ,.Tack was

claiming to have been with Ada on the date of the

offense?

A. The initial information was received about,

Jack's general involvement, ds far as the fact that he

was at the ranch, dt the time when the interview was

conducted with Ada.

As far as his specific locations throughout

the events, it was not until his forensic interview was

conducted.

o. And when was that forensic interview conducted?

A. That was about two months ago now.

o. why was the interview of ,Jack conducted so far

after the fact?

A. Based upon all of the information that we had

at the time of the initial investigation and even in the

intervening months, there was no indication that ,Jack

was present at the time that the incident occurred, that

he was actually at the location with Ada and Fernando

when the alleged incident occurred., and so r didn't feel

that it was exactly necessary to question him as to

where he wasn't.

o. Then why was he interviewed, then why was he

ultimately interviewed if your initial impression was

not to question him?

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A. fn an effort to maintain thoroughness and to

ensure that all avenues had been explored, we did

eventually go ahead and conduct a forensic interview

with him.

O. And that would have been two months ago, so

about what month and what year?

A. It was 20L3. I would have to look at my notes

to give it a specific date, but I want to say it was

late August or early september, something like that.

O. Now, did you conduct an interview with a person

by the name of .Tohnny Boggs?

A. Yes, I did.

o. was that interview conducted on February 27th,

2012?

A. Yes.

o. At the time that i-nterview was conducted, were

there any police reports that you are aware of

indicating indicating Jack's closeness to Ada at the

time of the event?

A. As far as his geographic proximity?

a. Physical

A. No.

O. proximity, yes.

A. No, there was not.

a. Now, let's go back to the interview of .Tack,

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this recent interview of Jack. you mentioned that

was done in the interest of thoroughness.

ir

A.

o.

intervi

A.

A.

o.

a. And was the forensic interview done in part to

bring out all the information prior to that. defense

intervi ew?

Yes.

Are you aware if there was a request for an

ew of Jack by the defense?

I believe there was.

Yes, it was.

And why was that?

A. Because, especially when dealing with children,

the best format in which to conduct that interview is a

forensic interview so that the questions are asked in a

non-suggestive, non-leading manner. That way we could

make sure that we received all of the information in the

best possible format without any question of any sort of

problems with the way the questions were asked or the

intervi-ew.

a. Now, as a result of that forensic interview

I'm sorry. Let me rephrase.

The information that we heard here today in

court , was the f rom .Tack, wds the f irs t time that l_aw

enf orcement became aware of .Tack,s physical proximity to

Ada, was that in that interview?

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A. Yes.

O. Before that interview about two months dgo, did

1aw enforcement have any idea that Jack was approaching

Ada at the time of the violation or near the time of the

violation?

A. We had received no reports from anybody that

was involved that there was any sort of proximity.

MR. KOHLER: No further questions, your

Honor.

THE COURT: A11 right, sir.

Mr. Green?

CROSS_EXAMTNATTON

BY MR. GREEN:

o. Let ' s start there . The intervi-ew with Jack was

in fact done after the defense after r requested an

i-nterview with,Jack, correct?

A. Yes.

O. And no investigation into Jack had been d.one

prior to that, r^i-ght?

A. Correct.

O. ,Jack lived on the property, correct?

A. Yes, he did.

O. And he was a could have been a potential

witness, right?

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L46

A. Based upon the information that we had at that

time, it was not believed that he had witnessed any of

the incident.

o. That wasn't my question. He cou1d. have been a

potential witness, correct?

A. Correct.

O. And were there other people on the ranch?

A. Yes.

O. We've heard about somebody named Jaime, right?

A. Yes.

O. Did you ever talk to .Taime?

A. I was unable to make contact with Jaime.

a. But you tried, right?

A. Yes.

o. was there anybody else on the ranch that you

tried to make contact with?

A. Ms. Quinn.

o. And you had a conversation with her, correct?

A. Yes.

o. A11 right. what about the owner of the ranch?

I only know him as ',paul,,, but did you ever contact him?

A. we had a brief contact with him at one point,

but he was not interviewed.

a. But you had contact with him?

A. Yes.

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O. You made contact, you sought him out to find

out something from him, correct?

A. He was on the property at the time that we went

up to obtain photographs.

O. And was ,Jack on the property at the time that

you went up to when the initial investi-gators were

there ?

A. I'm sorry. f'm going to ask for

clarification

0. Okay.

A. on that. The initial investigators being

0. When

A. the deputies?

O. When the event happened, when the deputies went

onto the property, was Jack present at the time?

A. To the best of my knowledge, the deputies

didn't go on the property at the time of the initial

investigation when it was reported.

O. The investJ_gators, the okay. The deputies,

where did they go, the first responders, the first

people that responded to this case?

A. My understanding is she went to the

Ms. Quinn went to the San Manuel substation where she

made contact with the deputies.

O. When did you find out about the incident?

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A. T received a phone call on October the 22nd,

201-1_.

O. And where were you at that time?

A. I was driving back from Laughlin, Nevada.

O. And why were if you,re out of town, why

would they call you? Why would somebody call you?

A. I was listed as the on-call detective for the

Persons crimes unit at the time. unfortunately, because

of my conference out of state, f had asked one of our

other detectives to cover the on-call during that

timeframe, and Dispatch either didn,t know or forgot,

and so they initially routed the call to me.

O. So then did you refer the call back to that

person who was covering for you?

A. Yes, I did.

O. Okay. And when was your first you were on

your way back from Laughlin, so when did you first

become involved in the case other than the phone call?

A. The next morning, orr October the 23rd., just

before 8:00 a.m., I received a phone call indicating

that Mr. Almanza had been located and requesting my

presence in San Manuel.

O. Okay, so he had been located. Had he been

picked up?

A. To the best of my knowledge, y€s.

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a. Had he been arrested?

MR. KOHLER: Objectj_on, your Honor.

THE COURT: yeah, sustained.

Go ahead, ask your next question.

MR. GREEN: May I have the basis for the

objection, your Honor?

THE COURT: No. But you can rephrase your

question.

BY MR. GREEN:

O. Had you reviewed when you first were

involved, had you reviewed any other police reports?

A. At the time that r received the call that.

morning?

A. yes.

A. No. I had not had an opportunity to read any

of the reports. That didn't happen until r made it to

San Manuel.

o. So you arrived at san Manuel, and were the

reports provided to you then?

A. yes.

O. Whose reports were you provided withZ

A. Deputy pecora, and then there were the notes

from the physical examinations that were conducted. or

medical examinations, excuse me.

o. And who was Deputy pecora and what informa

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what was his role?

MR. KOHLER: Objection, Your Honor. Can we

approach?

THE COURT: Sure, come on up.

(Bench conference outside the presence of

the jury and the court reporter.)

THE COURT: For the purpose of the record,

the objection was overruled.

Go or], Mr . Green.

BY MR. GREEN:

O. What was once you got involved with the

case, what was the first thing that you did?

A. f'm sorry, f need some clarification on that.

Are you talking about the first phone call r received on

the 22nd or on the 23rd?

O. You received a phone call on your way back from

Laughlin, right?

A. YeS.

O. You weren't involved at that point, correct? I

mean, you heard about it, but somebody else was handling

it at this end?

A. Correct.

O. Okay. So 1et's start from when you actually

physically were here and involved. What was the first.

thing that you did?

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A. tnitially f responded to the San Manuel

substation. At that point I obtained copies of the

relevant documentation so I could get caught up to speed

with exactly what had occurred the previous night.

At that point, determining that there was

probable cause to go forward with writing a search

warrant, r began writing the search warrant and locating

a judge to sign that warrant.

O. At the time that you were drafting this search

warrant, did you have probable cause to believe that

there was someone involved in this case?

MR. KOHLER: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Go ahead, what?

MR. KOHLER: This is calling for a 1ega1

conclusion before the jury and it,s improper and

irrelevant to the matter at hand.

THE COURT: I'm sorry

MR. KOHLER: We've already had a pretrial

ruling on this as we11, Your Honor.

THE COURT: What was your question again,

just briefly?

MR. GREEN: My question was, was there

probable cause to be to believe that there was a

person who was involved in this case that could have

committed this crime.

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THE COURT: Wel1, I'm going to sust,ain the

objection as to your phrasing. probable cause has its

own connotations. you can rephrase it and ask the

question differently.

So the objection is sustained.

BY MR. GREEN:

O. So you brought yourself up to speed?

A. Yes.

0. And Mr. Almanza, where was he at that time?

A. He was in one of the holding ce1ls at the san

Manuel substation.

0. And was this a locked ce11?

A. Yes.

a. And was he in handcuffs?

A. Not at the point that I went in and made

contact with him.

O. Had he been in handcuffs before that?

A. r wasn't present prior to his arrival in san

Manuel. r don't know if he had handcuffs placed on him

prior to that or not.

O. Who brought him in?

MR. KOHLER: your Honor, w€ object to

relevance of this line of questioning.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. GREEN:

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Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 153 of 252
153

a. You're the case agent , right?

A. Yes.

O. So you're the person that,'s supposed to have

the balance of the knowledge on this case, Tight?

A. Yes.

O. So when people work on your case, do they

report to you? And by "report," I don't mean that

you're their boss. I mean since you're the case agent,

you are the one that gets the information presented to

YOU, COrreCt?

A. At some point they submit a report that I read,

yes.

a. Do you ever talk to the agent to the other

officers directly?

A. Depending upon the circumstances.

O. Do you talk to the did you that day talk to

the officers who brought my client in?

A. I don' t reca11 any speci f ic conversations t.hat

morning outside of general -- just general conversation.

r d.on' t reca11 any anything speci f ic to your client .

O. And did the officers so you who ca11ed

you that morning and told you that my client was in

cus tody?

MR. KOHLER: Objection, relevance, your

Honor.

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THE COURT: No, overruled.

Go ahead and answer if you can.

THE WITNESS: Off the top of my head I

don't reca11 if r received the phone call from our

Dispatch asking us to call one of the deputies or if the

deputy ca1led directly. some deputies have my phone

number, some don't, and so r don,t recalI off the top of

my head who it was specifically.

BY MR. GREEN:

O. Do you recall whether it was one of the

deputies that was actually bringing him in or was it

some other deputy?

A. r r don't recalI if f talked to Dispatch or

if f talked directly to a deputy.

o. Had you at this time had any conversation with

the victim of this case?

A. No.

o. Had you had any conversation with the victim's

representative or the mother of the victim in this case?

A. NO.

a. So other than the reports that you read, the

first information you received about this case was an

interview with my client; is that correct?

A. other than the contact that r had had with

Deputy Pecora the night before when he initially ca11ed

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 155 of 252
155

on the case, that's correct.

O. And Deputy pecora gave you a summary of what

the case was about at that point

A. Briefly.

a. over the phone?

A. Yes.

0. A11 right. Now, State asked you whet,her you

Mirandized my client. Did you in fact read him the

Miranda off your card?

A. To the best of my knowledge, y€s. r tend to do

that every time.

o. But do you specifically remember doing it to my

client?

A. No, not specifically.

o. okay. And do you recall that there was some

conversation about my client and whether he was able to

speak English or whether he was better at spanish?

A. Yes, f do.

o. And did you have the Miranda rights read to him

in Spanish?

A. Yes.

a. And you reca11 that?

A. r reca11 sergeant Vargas reading the Miranda

rights i-n Spani sh .

O. To my client?

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o

A. Yes.

O. And that is not something that you generally

do, but you don,t remember specifically. That, you

remember specifically. Correct?

That was a convoluted question. f'm sorry.

A. Yeah.

0. You just said that you didn,t, remember

generally you read the Miranda warning off your card.,

but you didn't remember whether or not you ever read j-t

to my client in English, correct?

A. r reca11 providing him his Miranda. r can tell_

you that r don't typically try and go off by memory on

that. r read it off of the card to make sure that it's

done properly.

O. Okay. Thank you for clarifying.

The rest of the or most of the rest of

the interview was done in English, correct?

A. Yes.

O. And during the questioning, did my cli_ent, in

your opinion and f'm asking for just a general

opinion, not a professional opinion did he understand

what you were talking about?

A. Yes.

a. You asked him questions and he gave you an

answer, correct? t

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A. Correct.

O. Now, a 1itt1e while ago you were asked by the

state to read several sections of your interview with my

client. And you read a section on page 60, and I,m

going to offer you the

If I may approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: f believe he has it.

BY MR. GREEN:

a. Oh, do you sti1l have the transcript?

A. Yes.

THE COURT: Give us that exhibit number

agal-n.

THE WfTNESS : LL6, Judge.

BY MR. GREEN:

O. So on Exhibit 160, which you sti11 have in your

possession

A. 7t6, one-one-six.

O. Okay. I'm looking at page 60, and f 'm not

sure my copy may have different numbering than your

copy, so if the lines don,t line up we'11 find what

we're looking for, okay?

You were asked about the comment that

Mr. Almanza said in mine, it,s on line 10

regarding some b1ood. Can you find that comment?

A. Yes.

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1sB

O. Okay. And can you read t.hat?

A. You're wanting Mr. Almanza,s comment or mine?

O. Give Mr. Almanza's comment starting there.

THE COURT: Hold on a minute. Could you

make it clear if you are asking him to read out loud or

read to himself?

MR. GREEN: f'm asking him to read out

loud.

THE WITNESS: The first comment that

ref erences blood is Mr. Almanza saying, ,,But f did not

see any blood or nothing. "

BY MR. GREEN:

O. Okay. And then you stated after that?

A. "Okay, you didn't see any blood or nothing.

Did you look for blood on your hand.s?,,

a. Okay. Now, is it your recollection that that

was the first comment referencing blood?

A. To the best of my recollection, y€s.

0. Would you turn to page 56, please. you asked

with your question about the one, two, three, fovr,

five, sixth line down, beginning with "And the,,' can you

read that out 1oud, please?

A. "And the blood is made up, too?,,

a. And what did Mr. Almanza say?

A. He questioned, "B1ood?"

a

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Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 159 of 252
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A. And then you said?

A. "Yeah, and the injuries that she,s got. I

don't think you meant to hurt her. you don't seem like

the kind of guy that meant to hurt a little girl . 

,,

a. so you made reference earlier to the blood and

then Mr. Almanza made a comment 1ater, correct?

A. That would be correct.

o- A11 right. Now, fou told Mr. Almanza that you

had some rea11y good evidence against him, right?

A. yes _

O. That you had DNA evidence. Correct?

A. Correct.

O. Did you have DNA evidence?

A. We had taken samples to test for that, but

o. At the time that you made this statement, did

you have DNA results back?

A. No.

0. Did you have any idea whether Mr. Almanza,s DNA

was going to come back anywhere near that young lady?

A. No.

O. But you told him that you did, right?

A. Yes.

O. So you lied?

A. Yes.

o. And even before that, you talked about having

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skin ce11s, correct?

A. Yes.

O. And that you had found skin cel1s on her,

correc t ?

A. Correct.

O. That was a lie, too?

A. Yes.

O. Now, you explained earlier that this is a

common technique that you use, to 1ie to clients or

to lie to defendants or potential defendants to try to

get them to admit to something, correct?

A. It is a common practice, y€s.

O. So my question to you is, how far do you go?

MR. KOHLER: Objection, your Honor. The

question is confusing.

THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained..

Rephrase it.

BY MR. GREEN:

o. How far do you go in telling lies before you

get to the point where you're overpowering the will of

the person being interviewed?

MR. KOHLER: Objection, your Honor.

Argumentative.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Mr. Green and one of the attorneys come up

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 161 of 252
1-61,

here real quickly.

(Bench conference outside the presence of

the jury and the court reporter. )

BY MR. GREEN:

a. were you aware that Mr. Almanza was injured at

the time of your interview?

A. At one point during the course of the interview

he made reference to having had a hernia surgery, r

believe about two weeks prior.

a. And do you remember what he told you about

that ?

MR. KOHLER: Objection, your Honor,

relevance.

THE COURT: No, overruled.

You can answer -

MR. KOHLER: Your Honor, f also object on

the grounds of hearsay, s€1f-serving hearsay, beyond the

scope of cross.

THE COURT: Okay. Let's go back here in

the corner, please.

(Sidebar conference outside the presence of

the jury.)

THE COURT: Ready?

THE COURT REPORTER: Ready.

THE COURT: Okay. Go.

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MR. KOHLER: Your Honor, first of all, I'd

Iike to amend what I said earlier.

THE COURT: f'm sorry?

MR. KOHLER: f would like to amend what I

said earlier. ft's not beyond the scope of cross;

however, the statement is self-serving hearsay, hearsay

in that the statements made by the Defendant to this

deputy are admissible only from the defense side,

admissible only insofar as they clarify statements that

he made. r think there's been no information about

this. rf the Defendant wishes to bring out information

about his supposed injury, then he has every opportunity

to take the stand and do that himself.

THE COURT: I have no idea what he

answered to the question. what was the answer to the

question?

MR. KOHLER: The Defendant

THE COURT: What did he say?

MR. KOHLER: The Defendant brought out

information about a hernia surgery.

THE COURT: We've already got that. What

was the next what would the answer be to the next

question?

MR. KOHLER: Your Honor, f can't remember

exac tly .

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THE COURT: What is it you thought he was

going to say?

MR. GREEN: I'm trying to remember what the

question I asked was, but

THE COURT: The objection in general is

correct, and that is unless it's exculpatory, and it,s

not, at this stage it's self-serving hearsay to try to

induce a statement.

Now, you can stil1 ask me if you want to

play the whole recording, because they've talked about

it, but you can't do bits and pieces just to serve your

client's interest a1one, okay? So the objection will

end up being sustained until somebody can te1l me there

is something truly relevant in what that response was or

what the response would be.

MR. GREEN: WeI1, Your Honor, the relevance

is that there's significant evidence that,s been put

forward that my client helped these kids lift barrels

and lift things like that.

THE COURT: Are you just going to argue,

we11, he couldn't have because he had

MR. GREEN: -- surgery.

THE COURT: It's already in front of the

jury, so the objection will be sustained.

(The proceedings resumed with the presence

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of the jury.)

THE COURT: For the record, the objection

is sustained.

Go ahead, Mr. Green.

BY MR. GREEN:

O. Talking to my client was the first information,

and we just talked about that, that you received about

the case, other than some summary information you

received and the reports that you read, correct?

A. Correct.

O. What was the next step after talking to my

client in pursuing this investigation?

A. The next day we conducted the forensj_c

interview with Ada.

O. Okay. And you were present for that?

A. Correct.

O. A11 right. And after you had talked to Ada,

what was next?

A. We had to do repackaging of the sex assault kit

to conform to our packaging policies, and then it was

sent off to Department of Public Safety.

O. So repackaging to meet company policy, did that

involve anything that could have caused problems with

the evidence?

A. No.

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0. Was the evidence entirely taken out of its

packaging?

A. No.

a. Okay. Can you describe what you did in order

to repackage the evidence?

A. The items were originally placed in paper bags.

The correct procedure is to put them into boxes. At

that point basically what r did was check the bags to

make sure that all of the seals were sti11 intact and

then placed the entire bags into boxes and properly

packaged the boxes.

O. Okay. So when you're saying "the sea1s,', those

were the envelopes that we can see up here and the

packaging that were inside the bags? There were two

1eve1s of bags, correct?

A. That,s correct.

0. And one 1eve1 of bags was improper, the other

1eveI was fine?

A. The external bag that was used to package the

actual items should have been a box instead of a bag.

That seal was intact. There was nothing to show that

the bags had been opened or tampered with, and so r

placed the entire bag into a box so that it would

conform to policy.

O. Okay. Did you ever go back out to the

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property?

A. Eventually, yes.

o. when you say "eventua11y," how long after the

time that you that 1et's say from the forensic

interview, how long was it before you went onto the

property?

A. Detective Sanchez went out r think a day or two

days later r would have to refer to his report to

check the exact date and took initial photographs.

Based upon those r didn't go out until about a year

later to take some additional photos when it was decided

that we needed some additional images to get a fu11

picture.

o. was there anything about was there anything

about the site itself that seemed important to

investigate, based on the evidence that you had in

hand?

A. Not sure r entirely understand your question.

o. we11, in some cases there's footprints or in

some cases there may be blood evidence or in some cases

there may be that might show up on site, correct?

And ilm tarking generally, not about this case.

A. Generally, y€s, in some circumstances there,s

that type of evidence.

a. Was there any of that type of evidence or

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anything similar to that that would have been important

to get to the site early in the case?

A. f had no indication of that, fio.

o. we've been looking at several photographs that

the state has been putting up. one of the photographs

is an aerial photograph, correct?

A. Yes.

0. Who took that?

A. That was taken by one of our ID techs.

a. Okay. Do we have a name?

A. I believe it was Heidi Carino.

O. And do you know when those photographs were

taken ?

MR. KOHLER: Objection, relevance, your

Honor.

THE COURT: Overrul_ed. He can answer.

THE WITNESS: I would have to refer to my

report for the exact date, but I want to say it was,

1ike, November of 2012, something like that.

BY MR. GREEN:

a. So almost a little more than a year

afterwards ?

A. Approximately.

O. So at what point did you feel like you had

enough information to charge my client?

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MR. KOHLER: Objection, Your Honor,

relevance and ca1ls for a 1ega1 conclusion.

THE COURT

Vtlould you

a record?

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

another question?

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

Yeah, sustained.

like to go to the corner and make

No, Your Honor. That's fine.

Okay, go ahead. Do you have

No, Your Honor, I don't.

Okay, thank you.

Redi rec t ?

MR. KOHLER: uTust briefly, Your Honor.

REDTRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. KOHLER:

O. Detective Snyder, you have been here in this

courtroom for the past or today and the two previous

days, right?

A. That's correct.

A. During your time in this courtroom, have you

had the opportunity to observe the Defendant?

A. Yes, I have.

O. And have you observed the Defendant engaging in

conversations ?

A. Yes, I have.

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o. And have you observed the Defendant engaging in

conversations that you were able to determine were in

Engl i sh ?

A. yes.

o. And is this something that you've observed only

once, more than once, or something else?

A. More than once.

o. Now, r'm going to refer to the exhibit that you

have there, Exhibit i-16. Do you sti1l have that in

front of you?

A. Yes, f do.

O. I'm going to refer you to page 1g of that

exhibi t .

Do you see page 18 there?

A. Okay.

O. And on page 1g, if you could start at line 6,

could you review, starting there at line 6, and review

that paragraph.

A. Is that the one where f start, ,,Okay. Let,s

try this in English f irst,,?

a. yes. Go ahead and review that and let me know

when you've had a chance to read it.

A. Okay.

o. rs that a transcript of you providing the

Miranda rights to the Defendant?

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A. Yes.

O. Okay. Let,s go to the previous page, page 1,6.

Does your page 1,6 begin with a lengthy quote in spanish

by Sergeant Vargas?

A. My 16 starts with at the very top it says,

",-Tust Miranda and see if he wants to answer any

questions, " and then it starts in with sergeant vargas.

O. Let's f 'm sorry, I may have given you the

wrong page. Could you go to page 19.

A- 18 is the one we just looked at with my reading

of Miranda.

O. Go to the following page.

A. Okay.

a. Does that one begin with a lengthy quote in

Spanish by Sergeant Vargas?

A. Yes -

a. fs it accompanied by a translatj_on at the

end?

A. Yes.

o. could you review that translation and let. me

know when you,ve had a chance to read it.

A. Okay.

O. fs that a transcription of Sergeant Vargas

providing Miranda rights to the Defendant in spanish?

A. Yes.

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 171 of 252
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O. Now, there was some talk about your quotes on

page 60 regarding b1ood. Do you reca11 that dj_scussion

you had with defense counsel?

A. Yes.

O. Now, on page 56 of the interview, you raise the

issue of in jury and b1ood. Is that accurat.e?

A. Yes.

0. Okay. And looking we're going to look at

page the pages between 56 and 60. Do you guys talk

about blood that whole time?

A. Not the whole time, no.

o. Do you talk about her talk about him hugging

her at some point?

A. Yes.

O. Do you talk about do you talk more about

doctors' reports?

A. Yes.

a- Do you ever mention blood on his hands in those

intervening pages?

A. No.

a. Do you talk about how he carried her on

page 59 ?

A. Yes.

O. And then when we finally get to page 60, are

you discussing blood with him at all at that point?

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Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 172 of 252
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A. Not at that point.

a. And go ahead, there,s a portion there where he

says okay, where he says, "But r not see any blood or

nothing." Do you see that portion on page 60?

A. Yes.

0. Was that quote in response to your previous

conversation about blood or was that out of the blue?

A. Out of the b1ue.

O. Now, the defense talked to you about lying to

the Defendant, about DNA, and about skin ce11s. What

was the reason that you that you told the Defendant

that we had skin ce11s and DNA?

A. rt's not an uncommon tactic, when discussing or

when interviewing a suspect, to provide information

outside the realm of what we have initially to gauge

their reaction, to see if they have any sort of reaction

or make any sort of statements that would be outside the

realm of normal under those contents context.

o. rn your training and experience, when presented

with more information, be it false or true, does do

stories change sometimes?

A. Yes.

0. fs that what happened in this case?

A. Yes.

O. Now, I want to clarify the issue about the

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packaging of the materials. you talked about how

following Ada's forensic interview f believe you were

asked if it was after you talked to Ada, and r want to

clarify that. you never had a forensic interview with

Ada, did you?

A. No, I didn't. I observed the forensic

interview that was conducted by Ms. Bodwe11.

o- And was it after that that you repackaged the

evi denc e ?

A. Yes, it was.

o. Now, defense mentioned something about them

being improperly packaged. was there anything that

compromised the content of those bags?

A. No.

a. And did you open those bags at all?

A. No.

o. so what we're talking about is you took bags

that were sealed and you put them in a box; is that

accurate ?

A. That's correct.

a. And is it easier to transport a box than a

bag?

A. Yes.

a. rs the evidence more secure in a box than in a

bag ?

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 174 of 252
l.74

A. Yes.

MR. KOHLER: I have nothing further, your

Honor.

THE COURT: Can I see the attorneys up

here, please.

(Bench conference outside the presence of

the jury and the court reporter.)

THE COURT: You might gather, Detective, I

have a few questions.

,JURY OUESTIONS

THE COURT: Okay, sir. Let me ask you, one

of the photographs shown to the jury was a scratch on

the arm of Ms. Quinn. Were you there when that

occurred?

THE WITNESS: yes, I was.

THE COURT: And was that scratch

accidental ?

THE WITNESS: yes, it was.

THE COURT: Okay. Did you actually observe

the event, the occurrence of itz

THE WITNESS: yes, f did.

THE COURT: Okay, thank you.

Speaking of the exhibit which were the

underwear, Ada's underwear, were they have the stains

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Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-4 Filed 05/16/19 Page 175 of 252
L75

been or were the stains, the underwear themselves,

submitted for analysis?

THE WITNESS: Yes, they were.

THE COURT: And there was some result

produced as to that analysis?

THE WITNESS: Yes, there was.

THE COURT: Okay, thank you.

Did the Defendant, Mr. Almanza, request to

have a translator present for his interview, and this

says , " or did someone make the decision that it was not

needed. " Was there an individual who is capable, fluent

in English and Spanish, available?

THE WITNESS: That was Sergeant Vargas, and

that was why I requested that he be there, to make sure

that there was no confusion.

THE COURT: Did he remain there during the

intervi ew?

THE WITNESS: Yes. He was there the entire

time.

THE COURT: A11 right. And was that as a

result of Mr. Almanza's request or your decision?

THE WITNESS: That was my decision.

THE COURT: A11 right. And of course I'm

going to give the attorneys a chance to ask fo11ow-up if

they have any.

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When Ms. Quinn made her stat.ement at the

police department or the substation, was there any

record of her made or did she mention.Tack having been

with Ada at the ranch that morning, ot do you know?

THE WfTNESS: Off the top of my head r

don't recall specifically what was in her statements. r

could review them if you would 1ike.

THE COURT: Okay. Let me give the

attorneys the opportunity to fo11ow up.

Mr. Long, dfly fo1low-up? Or Mr. Kohler.

Pardon me -

MR. KOHLER: Thank you, your Honor.

FURTHER EXAMINATION

BY MR. KOHLER:

O. ,-fust real brief Iy, on the j-ssue of

Sergeant Vargas, you mentioned to the .fudge that

sergeant vargas was present throughout the interview; is

that accurate?

A. yes.

o. Now, did sergeant vargas assist at any point

during the interview for clarification?

A. yes.

0. And we looked at the portion of Miranda where

sergeant vargas read it to him in spanish. was that the

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only time that sergeant vargas stepped in, or were there

other times, too?

A. There were other incidents where some

clarification was needed and he was able to assist.

MR. KOHLER: Nothing further.

THE COURT: Thank you.

Mr. Green?

MR. GREEN: Your Honor, fry only f

believe we can answer the jury's questions, your Honor,

by playing the entire interview, and f would request

that that be admitted at this point and that we go ahead

and play that for the jury and publish it to the jury,

Your Honor.

THE COURT: We will talk about it when the

jury is not here. Do you have any fo11ow-up

questj-ons

MR. GREEN: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: -- on the questions asked?

Okay. Are you done with this witness? May

Detective Snyder step down?

MR. KOHLER: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. f f those are exhj_bits,

1et me have them back, please.

MR. KOHLER: Subject to reca11, of course,

Your Honor.

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THE COURT: Of course.

Why don't we do this. Why don't I ask the

jury to step out it's way too early for the afternoon

break. Let me ask you to step out to the jury room for

about five minutes while r have a discussion with the

attorneys.

(The proceedings resumed outside the

presence of the jury.)

THE COURT: Mr. Green has made a request

that the entire recording be admitted and presumably

played for the jury. Go, Mr. Kohler or Mr. Long.

MR. KOHLER: Thank you, your Honor.

First of all, the timing of that request is

inappropriate. The request should be stricken on those

grounds a1one. Defense has already ended

cross-exami-nation. Your Honor gave the def ense an

opportunity to make that request during

cross-examination. He neglected to do so and has waived

any opportunity to do that.

Furthermore, Your Honor, even if the

request is not stricken, that interview contains

multiple statements of self-serving hearSdy, which do

not are not admissible in the against the state on

account of the for the rule of completeness purposes,

which would be the only reasons the Defendant or the

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]-79

proponent,s of the statements could introduce their own

statements through hearsay.

Because of that, your Honor, w€ request

that the interview not be played, that the motion be

s tri cken .

THE COURT: Is there anything and I told

you early on when r made the pretrial ruling r had

listened to the portion and read the portion through the

reading of the rights and into a bit of it, but r did

not listen to the entire body of the recording. rs

there anything in the recording, in the statement, that

is, in and of itself , inadmissj-ble, r guess is the best

way, an admission to a prior conviction, that kind of

thing? Anything like that?

MR. KOHLER: your Honor, the Defendant

denies the allegations multiple times, which

THE COURT: f understand that.

MR. KOHLER: And furthermore, there,s a

portion of the interview or the translation of the

interview where the Defendant is making, despite his

prevr-ous assertion that he was on good terms with Katie,

he's making multiple allegations against Katie which are

unfounded by anything except his own statements.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. KOHLER: He does also mention being

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accused of a prior sex offense during that portion of

the interview if r remember correctly, your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Good.

What do you want to sEry, what else?

MR. GREEN: Your Honor, the State has been

using the transcript, and I,ve explained before, your

Honor, that the transcript doesn't show what happened at

the interview. A11 it says is the words that were said.

rt doesn't show the emotions, it doesn't show the

inflections in the voices, it doesn,t show the confusion

or lack thereof of the conversation that occurred. rf

the state wants to redact certain parts of this, r,fll

fine with that, your Honor, but there's at least as many

admissions in this transcript as there are self-serving

statements, so it,s

THE COURT: No, don't get up.

MR. GREEN: -- it,s absolutely a risk on my

part, Your Honor, to ask that this be played, but I do

believe that it will benefit the jury and some of the

confusion that's created by piecemealing it out, first

of all, taking things out of context and not having the

voices and the sounds that go along with the words.

THE COURT: Very simple principle of 1aw is

involved, and hearsay, generally speaking, is not

admissi-ble at all. There's an exception when the

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hearsay is a statement made by a part,y opponent, in this

case, the Defendant, and that,s what al1ows the portion

that came in at the State's request.

The remaining portion is simply hearsay as

to your client, particularly if it has self-serving

statements 1ike, ge €, I dj_dn't do it, or ten dif f erent

versions of it. rn the face of the state objecting to

the admissi-on of it in tota1, f 'm not going to a11ow

that.

Now, here's something, though. The State

used portions of it. rf you want to produce a redacted

version that has only those passages in it, I,11 be

happy to reconsider a ruling as to that portion, but as

far as the entire transcript goes, no.

Your objection the objection is

sustained, your request is overruled_

Okay. Do we have another witness ready?

MR. KOHLER: We do, your Honor.

MR. LONG: yes, sir.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. LONG: And .Tudge, here are proposed

r guess our proposed redactions of r only have two

copies, but if the court and defense counsel wanL to

view those and see if there,s an objection.

THE COURT: Oh, is Mr. Boggs next?

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MR. LONG: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Oh, I'fit sorry. Don,t bring him

in yet. r'm sorry, r did want to address that. Thank

you.

I had the indictment produced for

everybody. And I was looking at the original

indictment, and it is very difficult, at least in my

mind, having done a few of these cases, to figure out

how to identify an aggravated domestic violence without

talking about domestic violence. r suppose you could

sort of fight it and make a new crime called aggravated

disorderly conduct, which sounds a 1itt1e bit

inappropriate.

f do believe the whole purpose is to have

the defendant, if you,re going to use it for

impeachment, to acknowledge having made a class 6 deal

in exchange for information and the dismissal of

charges, that is, a Class 4, a Class 5 -- two

Class 5s, and a Class 1 misdemeanor.

So f'm going to go ahead and sort of modify

what r did before. The nature of the offenses in totalwill be sanitized. The 1eve1 of offense as far as

identifying the seriousness, without giving the jury an

idea of the range of penalties, but the 1eve1 of

seriousness will be identified so that the jury can at

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least understand that in exchange for his assistance,

that he received a class 6 lowest 1eve1 felony and had

dismissed one felony that's a slightly greater felony or

slightly more egregious, and two that are I'm

sorry two that are slightly more egregious and one

that is more egregious than that. Okay.

Yes ?

MR. LONG: Clarifying, so does that ruling

also apply to the plea agreement? can f then further

redact the charge

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. LONG: -- that was

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. LONG: -- pled to?

THE COURT: yeah, it has to be consistent.

The two things have to be consistent with each other.

Now, Mr. Green, having made that ruling, do

you have anything you want to make of a record?

MR. GREEN: Just a clarification, your

Honor.

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. GREEN: And that is that I am permitted

to ask by number

THE COURT: By 1eve1.

MR. GREEN: -- by 1eve1, so a Class 6

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felony what you said is a class 6 felony and a

slightly more

THE COURT: Okay. f have no other way that

we can do it, but we have to avoid mentioning the

penalties, simply the f act that one i_s two levels above,

two are one 1eveI above, and. two are actually one level

below what he actually pled to.

only way to

numbers, one

or request,

on paragraph

And yes, you can do it that way. And the

make sense in doing that is to mention the

F4, two F5s, two M1s, for an F6.

MR. LONG: And again, further clarification

in the avowal section f neglected,.Tudge

5 I neglected to redact

THE COURT: prior felonies?

MR. LONG: Correct. And obviously, based

on the 609 hearing, that the State submits that that

should be redacted. as wel1, that Mr. Green certainly

can talk about that and ask questions and we will

also be eliciting the number of priors that he has that

are allowed to be mentioned under 609 but it would

be inappropriate to include non-609 priors in this

exhibi t .

THE COURT: Boy, I love it when attorneys

start doing this. rnstead of saying 13, you,ve already

figured out that it was rea11y only two or three or

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four? fs that what you,re telling me?

MR. LONG: Which is what we,re allowed to

mention is all.

THE COURT: f know. f don't have the f i1e

in front of me. r have no idea what of his priors call

f or 609.

MR. KOHLER: your Honor, if I could

c lari fy ?

THE COURT: yeah.

MR. KOHLER: The Defendant does in fact

have 1,2 prior f elony convictions; however

THE COURT: ft says 13. Oh, no more than

13.

MR. KOHLER: However, your Honor, when we

did our 609 hearing

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KOHLER: -- the Court evaluated the

prior feloni-es which would have been a11egeab1e, and the

defense is allowed to impeach him with only the three

that you that you mentioned.

THE COURT: Three. Okay. We1I, that,s

it. r have no idea what the numbers are, but |m sure

some brilliant judicial officer figured that out.

Three.

So let's get it redacted, get it corrected.

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Take a copy of the indictment, get the redactions made

on that, because |m sure Mr. Green would like to have

that when he talks to Mr. Boggs if you don't use it.

Okay.

And f'm afraid we can't rea11y start with

Mr. Boggs until we have these ready.

MR. KOHLER: ft won't take us 1ong, your

Honor.

THE COURT: Wel1, let's do this. Although

it's early and r rea11y want to get done with the two

witnesses today, tel1 the jury they're taking their

afternoon break now.

THE BAILIFF: Okay.

THE COURT: They have j_5 more minutes and

we'11 start no later than a quarter to 3:00, and we,re

not taking another break today.

THE BAILIFF: Okay.

THE COURT: Got that everybody? Be back

you guys be back at 20 0f. we,11 try to get the jury in

close to that.

(Recessed from 2:27 p.m. until 2:4g p.m.

The proceedings resumed outside the presence of the jury

and with the presence of Alisha olivarez, court.

interpreter. Marked for identification state,s

Exhibir No. 1,29.)

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THE COURT: Did you get your final redacted

versj-on of the plea agreement?

MR. KOHLER: I did, your Honor. ft,s been

marked as Exhibit L2B.

THE COURT: Does the clerk have it?

MR. KOHLER: She does.

THE COURT: Can f see it? Thanks.

Real quickly, I just wanted to double-check

before we got the jury in. r will te11 you, one of the

jurors reported to the bailiff that he or she was having

some stomach problems, so if a hand is raised we,re

going to take a break, just to 1et you know.

Mr. Green, are you satisfied with the

redacted Exhibit t2B?

MR. GREEN: yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay, gtood. Everybody ready?

Mr. Long or Mr. Kohler, who is going?

MR. LONG: This will be Mr. Kohler.

THE COURT: Mr. Kohler, are you ready?

MR. KOHLER: I drrl, your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Green?

MR. GREEN: yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: Bring them in.

(The proceedings resumed with the presence

of the jury. )

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THE COURT: Let,s have the record show the

presence of the attorneys, the Defendant, Mr. Almanza,

and the jury is now back in the courtroom.

Mr. Kohler, is the State ready to

proceed?

MR. KOHLER: We are indeed, your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Green, are you ready to

proceed?

MR. GREEN: f dfr, your Honor.

THE COURT: A11 right. rf you wou1d,

Mr. Kohler.

MR. KOHLER: Yes, your Honor. At this

time, the State ca11s John Boggs to the stand.

THE COURT: A11 right, sir. A11 the way

forward, please, and right over here to the clerk and

she'11 swear you in.

(The witness, Johnny Boggs, was duly sworn

by the Clerk of the court, according to 1aw.)

THE COURT: A11 right, sir. Come on over

and have a seat. ,Just kind of pu11 up to the table.

That microphone moves and bends, but you need to speak

into it, sir.

MR. BOGGS: A11 right.

THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Kohler?

MR. KOHLER: Thank you, your Honor.

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JOHNNY BOGGS,

cal1ed as a witness herein, having been first duly

sworn, wds examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINAiION

BY MR. KOHLER:

o. Good afternoon, Mr. Boggs. could you please

state your fu1l name for the record and spe1l it for us.

A. Johnny Boggs, .J-o-h_n_n_y B_o_g_g_s.

O. And Mr. Boggs, where do you currently live?

A. In Superior.

0. Now, Mr. Boggs, how long have you lived in

Superi or ?

A. A11 my 1ife.

O. Mr. Boggs, I'm just going to kind of jump right

in here. you've had some trouble with the 1aw in the

past.

A. yes, sir.

O. Is that an accurate statement?

A. Yes, sir.

0. And you've had several convictions for felony

offenses. Is that true?

A. Yes, sir.

o- And in 2004 you were convicted of a felony,

right ?

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A. Uh-huh.

THE COURT: Hold on. you have to say

"yes. "

THE WfTNESS: yes. yes.

BY MR. KOHLER:

a. r'm sorry. And in 2003 you were also convicted

of a felony?

A. Yes.

a. And then most recently, you were convi-cted of

another felony in 201-2?

A. Uh-huh, yes, I was.

O. Now, did you that felony in 20L2, could you

te11 the jury whether you took that matter to trial or

whether you took a plea agreement?

A. f took a plea agreement.

O. And te11 the jury what a plea agreement is.

A. I pled guilty to a lesser charge.

O. fnstead of doing what?

A. Taking it to trial.

a. Okay. Now, in that 2Ot2 matter, there was a

period of time where you were in jai1, right?

A. Yes.

o. Do you remember how long you were in jail for?

A. Nine months f think it was.

0. And the period of time that you were in jai1,

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was that before you took the plea agreement?

A. Yes, it was.

0. And at some point during those during that

time that you were in jai1, did the state make any kind

of a plea offer to you?

A. No.

O. Do you know what a plea offer is?

A. Oh, yeah, yeah. I was offered a p1ea.

O. So you were offered

A. Yes.

a. a plea agreement?

A. Uh-huh.

o. Do you remember what that plea agreement was

that you were offered?

A. f think it ca11ed for a year and a ha1f.

O. A year and a half of what?

A. Of DOC.

a. And was DOC a

A. Department of Corrections.

O. Okay. And is that another name for prison?

A. Yes.

0. Now, do you remember, did you eventually enter

into that plea agreement?

A. Yes, f did.

O. And at the end of the day, how much time did

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you do in the Department of corrections for your 201,2

felony?

A. Is that before my parole or after?

0. How much time were you sentenced to? Let,s

A. To a

O. talk about that.

A. year and a ha1f.

O. To a year and a half?

A. Yeah.

o. okay. so from the first time you were made an

offer in your case

A. Uh-huh.

o. you were made an offer to a year and a half

in prison, and then you ultimately served how long?

A. Four months, f think.

o. And is that counting the time that you were in

jail?

A. Yes.

a. Total time, how much time did you serve total?

A. Thi_rteen months , or

a. Were you sentenced to a year and a half?

A. Yes, f was.

O. Now, does Department of Corrections have

various mechanisms that they use to al1ow people to

leave early on parole?

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A. We1I, the 85 percent, then they a11ow you out

on parole.

0. So your ultimate plea agreement, you agreed to

go to prison for a year and a half?

A. Yes, I did.

O. In exchange for pleading guilty; is that

accurate ?

A. Yes.

o. Now, do you remember about when it was that you

signed your plea agreement and it was accepted by the

Court ?

A. rt think it was Apri1, or maybe lm March or

Apri 1 .

o. Let's talk about it in relation to various

other events, okay, because at some point you did sign a

plea

A. Yeah.

a. agreement, right?

A. Uh-huh.

a. Now, at some point while you were in jai1, did

you meet a person by the name of Fernando Almanza?

A. Yes.

a. Now, r'd like you to look around the courtroom.

Do you see anyone in this courtroom who is Fernando

Almanz a ?

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A. Sitting right over there.

o. can you te11 us what that person is wearing for

the record?

A. A grayish-b1ue shirt.

O. Your Honor

A. Dark trousers.

O. could the f,m sorry. Finish.

A. Grayish-blue shirt with some trousers.

MR. KOHLER: your Honor, could the record

reflect the witness has identified the Defendant?

THE COURT: It may.

BY MR. KOHLER:

o. About when did you first meet Mr. Almanza, lf

you can reca11?

A. Late February, around or February or Apri1,

around there.

O. Okay. Now, how did you meet Fernand.o

Almanza ?

A. Through a mutual friend, I can say.

0. Who was that?

A. Pete OrLtz.

a. Was he also in jail?

A. Yes.

O. And how were you introduced to Fernando?

A. That they knew each other from their from

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around the same area.

O. Sorry. Could you say that one more time?

A. They were both from the same area, so they had

known each other.

O. And why did Mr. Ortiz introduce you to

Fernando, if you know?

A. He had me he needed somebody to help him

out, understand what was going on with his case.

0. Now, do you speak fluent Spanish?

A. YeS.

a. was that something that was that, enabled you

to help out Mr. Almanza?

A. Yes.

o. Did you ever discuss Fernando Almanza's case

wi th him?

A. Yes.

0. Did Fernando teI1 you what he was incarcerated

for?

A. wel1, first he said he didn,t know what he was

incarcerated for. And then r had talked to Dion

Rushing, one of the

O. Who is Dion Rushing?

A. He's a detective here in pinal county sheriff,s

Office -

o. okay. what did did the Defendant was the

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Defendant later made aware of what his charges were?

A. we11, when r talked to Mr. Rushing about it, he

looked it up and he told us what he was in here for.

O. And were you able to convey that to the

Defendant?

A. Yes, f was.

O. Did you provide any kind of helps to the

Defendant while to Mr. Almanza while he was in jail

with you?

A. r wrote letters for him and to his family and

stuff along the 1ine.

0. Irvere those letters in English or in spanish?

A. They were in Spanish.

O. And were you why was it that you were

writing them?

A. He can't read or write.

O. Now, did you do any court work?

A. Yes.

O. What kind of stuff did you do?

A. At one time he wanted to do a fast-and-speedy,

another time he wanted to get rid of his lawyer.

O. What do you mean by fast-and-speedy?

A. fnvoke the rights for his fast and speedy

tria1.

0. So would that be, 1ike, a formal motion

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A. Yeah.

a. that you would file with the Court?

A. Uh-huh.

a. Did you do that for him on another occasion as

well?

A. Yes.

o. Now, did you ever talk with Fernando Almanza

about the specifics of his case?

A. Yeah. yes, I did.

O. And what did he te11 you about his case?

A. He told me that he was on his ranch, he f

guess he was he had been castrating some pigs, and

that the victim in the case was a 1itt1e gir1, and he

didn't understand how they could charge him for child

sexual assault if he didn't insert his penls in her,

that he only put his finger.

O. I'm sorry. Repeat that last part again.

A. He didn't understand how he was being charged

for sexual assault if he didn't put his penis in her,

that he just put his finger in her.

O. And did he come to you with this question?

A. Yes.

o. And how did you react when you learned of that

information?

A. ft it made me feel messed uF, because, I

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mean, f was helping him out, believing he was

innocent. And when he made that statement is when it

was like

MR. GREEN: Objection, your Honor. May we

approach?

THE COURT: Sure, come on over.

(Bench conference outside the presence of

the jury and the court reporter.)

THE COURT: For the record, the objection

is sustained.

But Mr. Kohler, you can go ahead and

rephrase the questi-on or ask a new question if you'd

1ike.

MR. KOHLER: Thank you, your Honor.

BY MR. KOHLER:

O. You said that it made you feel it made you

feel messed up. What do you

A. Yeah.

0. mean by that?

A. Uncomfortable.

O. Okay. Now, did you take any action once you

learned this from him?

A. f had talked to Rushing and Detective

Rushing, and I asked if he

O. I'm sorry. Detective Rushing. Te11 us who he

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is one more time.

A. He's a detective here for pinal County

Sheriff's.

O. Okay. So what did you do next?

A. r had talked to him and asked him if he could

get me in touch with somebody to talk to about it,

because that's one thing that f mean, it,s it,s

ruinj-ng a child's 1if e doing something like that.

o. And did you eventually have an opportunity to

talk to another detective about that?

A. Yes, f did.

0. And who dj_d you talk to?

A. Mr. Snyder.

o. rs that the Detective snyder here, sitting

here

A. yes, sir.

a. next to Mr. Long?

Now, did you convey this information to

Detective Synder?

A. Yes, I did.

a. Now, r'm going to talk a 1itt1e bit about the

timing, because we were talking about talking about

some months or times

A. Uh-huh.

O. you may have done some stuff. r want to

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relate these events in order, okay? were you made an

offer by the state for a year and a half in prison

before you talked to Detective snyder or after you

talked to Detective Snyder?

A. ft was before f talked to him.

0. Had you signed that agreement before you talked

to Detective snyder or af t,er you talked with Detective

Snyder ?

A. Before f talked to him.

O. Okay. So you had been given an agreement and

you had signed it

A. Uh-huh.

O. and then you talked to Detective Snyder?

A. Yes.

a. Is that accurate?

A. Yes, sir.

a. Okay. So and that agreement, was for a year

and a half?

A. Yes.

O. You then talked to Detective Snyder and you

told him what you learned?

A. Yeah. yes, I did.

O. Were you and during that time, were you

what were you in jail for? were you waiting to be

sentenced or something else?

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A. It t,hink it, was a I think it, was Lwo C1ass 4

felonies and class 5, and then there was r think it

was Class 6.

O. I'm sorry. Thank you for bringing that up. f

was going to talk about that in a second.

But not what charges were you in custody

for, what procedurally were you waiting for at that

point? Because you've already signed it and you,re

stil1 in jai1. you haven't gone to prison yet. so is

there

A. Oh, I was waiting for sentencing.

O. Okay. And is that fairly typical, that you

wait after you enter a plea agreement you wait

A. Well

O. to be sentenced?

A. you enter the plea agreement, then you do

your pre-sentence report. From there you go to

sentencing.

O. Okay. So you were, during that time, waiting

for a report to be prepared

A. Yeah.

O. before you were sentenced?

A. Yes, f was.

o. okay. And then you talked to Detective snyder

and presumably you were later sentenced. rs that

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accurate ?

A. Yes, that is.

O. And you were sentenced to a year and a halfZ

A. To a year and a ha1f.

a. Okay. Did your talking to Detective Snyder

change your plea agreement in any way?

A. I was f don't believe it did.

O. Did it change did it change the time that

you did in the Department of corrections in any way from

what you were originally offered?

A. No. No.

a. Now, you mentioned you mentioned previously

that you were charged with two class 4 felonies, a class

5 felony, and a Class 6 felony.

A. Uh-huh.

a. fs that accurate?

A. Yes, it is.

a. And j_n the f irst in the plea of fer that you

were given before you talked to Detective snyder, the

state made you an offer to plead guilty to one class 6

felony. Is that accurate?

A. Yes, it is.

O. And that they would then dismiss the other

felonies?

A. Yes.

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O. Was that a change one to a 6 and drop the

others ?

A- yeah. They amend that amended it to a 6 and

dropped the others.

o. After you talked to Detective snyder, did any

of that change?

A. No.

0. So Mr. Boggs, did you did you receive any

net benefit to you personally by reporting on

Mr. Almanza to Detective Snyder?

A. The only benefit f received out of it was peace

of mind.

0. Now, you did enter into oh, as you,re

sitting here today

A. Uh-huh.

a. have you completed your sentence in the

Department of Corrections?

A. Yes I have.

O. Now, f'm showing you what's been

ff f may approach, your Honor?

THE COURT: yes.

BY MR. KOHLER:

o. what's been marked as state's Exhibit L2g.

r know it's got a 1itt1e bit of black all over it, but f

want you to te1I me if you recognize that document.

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A. That' s t.he plea agreement f signed.

O. Is that the plea agTreement that you were

that you were offered before you talked to

Detective Snyder?

A. Yes, it was.

0. Now, in that plea agreement, if you turn to the

second page, do you remember reading those paragraphs in

that plea agreement?

A. Yes, f do.

O. Are those paragraphs talking about your

agreement to testify?

A. Yes, they are.

O. Now, do they talk about what could happen to

you if you testify falsely?

A. Yes, it does.

O. And do you recall what they say about if you

testify falsely?

A. I could be arrested for it.

O. Go ahead and read over paragraph 5 for me.

Could you look at that one?

Do you see it there?

A. Yes.

a. fn paragraph 5, it says that if you testify

fa1se1y, you can the Court can i-gnore the plea

agreement, right?

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A. Yes, it does.

o. And it further goes on to say the court could

also consider your false testimony at any sentencing.

Is that accurate?

A. Yes, sir.

0. Mr. Boggs, you,ve already been sentenced in

this, haven't you?

A. Yes, I have.

0- The Judge has already accepted this agreement

and you've already served your time on this agreement,

right ?

A. I completed it in October of last year.

O. So if you failed to testify, under this

agreement was there any consequence for you at all?

A. No, there isn't, because there,s double

j eopardy.

a. so Mr. Boggs, why are you here testifying today

if you're not getting any benefit under this plea

agreement for it?

A. Like I just said, fty own peace of mind.

o. Now, when you talked to Detective snyder, was

that was that back in February of 201,2? Does that

sound about right?

A. Yes, it does. February, March, I believe.

O. When you talked to Detectj_ve Snyder, did you

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mention to him anything about a young boy on the farm,

on the ranch?

A. That was the victim,s brother.

O. Vrlhat did the Defendant te11 you about the

victim's brother?

A. That he was walking towards him, that he must

have been about 30 to 40 yards away.

O. That he was walking towards him when?

A. when he was getting ready to sit down, r guess,

and have his lunch.

O. Okay. And when was this in relation to the

Defendant inserting his finger into Ada,s vagina?

A. As he was sitting down. He was

O. Why don't

A. He was holding her, I g,uess, and as he was

sittlng down is when he did it.

O. And why don't you go ahead and tel1 the jury

what you remember the Defendant saying about when he was

sitting down.

A. That while he was sitting down he had his hands

holding under her butt, and when he sat down, he

inserted his finger.

o. And do you recall what the Defendant told you

about,Jack's whereabouts at that time?

A. He said that the boy must have been about 30,

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40 yards away, walking towards him.

And, you know, it,s my own belief that if

the boy wasn't walking towards hi-m, it might have

been led somewhere e1se.

o- Did the Defendant ever talk to you about his

relationship with the victim's mother, Kdtie?

A. Just that they worked on the ranch together and

that he had tried to get together with her a couple

times and she always denied him.

o. what do you mean by tried to get together with

her ?

A. Date her, go on a couple dates with her.

MR. KOHLER: f have no further questions,

Your Honor.

THE COURT: A11 right, sir.

Mr. Green?

CROSS-EXAMINATTON

BY MR. GREEN:

o. when did you first talk to Detective snyder?

A. Around February or March.

O. Of what year?

A. 'L2 .

O. And what you just told us and told the jury

today is what you told Detective snyder at that time?

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A. Pretty c1ose.

O. Pretty close? Or

A. Wel1, yeah, basically.

O. I mean, maybe not the same words

A. Not the

O. but close?

A. same words, yeah, but

O. Same information?

THE COURT: Hold on. One of the things you

have to make sure is to let him finish whatever he's

going to ask before you start answering.

THE WTTNESS: Okay.

THE COURT: So just wait, 1et him finish,

and then answer.

THE WTTNESS: A11 right.

THE COURT: A11 right. Go ahead, sir.

BY MR. GREEN:

0. Now, you said that the way you came to this

information was that Fernando was looking for some help

with 1ega1 issues; is that right?

A. Yes.

O. Are you a lawyer?

A. No.

a. You wrote some documents and things like that

for Fernando; is that right?

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A. Yes.

O. Did you file pleadings for him?

A. r didn't file a pleading, r just filed motions.

a. you filed motions pleadings?

A. yeah.

o. And why was it that you were doing this for

him, that couldn't he do that for himself?

A. Well , if you can,t read or wri_te, you can,t do

it yourself.

o. so he told you that he couldn't read or write?

A. Yes, sir.

O. Okay. And did you have any reason not to

believe him that he couldn't read or write?

A. we11, dctually signed his name on a regal memo

one time and it was just, 1ike, a scribble, so

a. So you were pretty much convinced that that was

probably true, Taght?

A. We1l, I never seen him pick up no books to

read.

o. so while you were doing this work for Fernand.o,

you had access to his papers and to his i-nf ormation; is

that right?

A. No - He told me this all before he had gotten

his paperwork, before he had gotten his discovery.

O. Did he ever show you his discovery?

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A. He showed me discovery after r had talked to

Mr. Snyder.

a. Can you describe Fernando in terms of he

doesn't read or write? Do you know if he ever went, to

school? Did he ever tel1 you that?

A. No. He never mentioned anything about that.

o. okay. Did he seem confused about the paperwork

and the things that were going on?

A. what he seemed confused about was the charges.

o. okay. so how do you know that? Did he talk to

you about that?

A. wel1, basically what he told me was how could

they charge him for sexual assault if he didn,t put his

penis in her, that it was only his finger. That's what

was confusing him.

o. was there anything else that was confusing?

A. Basically it,s just about that.

0. OkaY.

A. Excuse me. He did also

O. That,s okay. Do you want to add to that.

answer? Is that what you,re

A. We11, yes.

O. Okay. Go ahead.

A. He also did discuss about DNA.

a. Okay. Did he understand what DNA was?

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A. No, he didn't know what it was. He was

wondering about how it went, and. he said if he was

castrating pigs and he had blood and whatnot from the

pigs, would they sti11 be able to find DNA if there was

DNA from the chi1d.

MR. GREEN: No more questions, your Honor.

THE COURT: A11 right, sir.

Mr. Kohler, any redirect?

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. KOHLER:

o. you said that you did eventually have access to

Mr. Almanza's court papers; is that right?

A. Uh-huh.

THE COURT: Wait a minute. you need to say

"yes" or "no.tt

THE WITNESS: yes, sir.

MR. KOHLER: Thank you, your Honor.

BY MR. KOHLER:

O. And you said that was after you talked to

Detective Snyder?

A. Yes.

o. And then you mentioned that you mentioned

that he was confused about DNA?

A. Yes.

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o. were you able to explain to him a little bit

about DNA?

A. what r told him basically was it,s a blood

workup about a human body, that they could basically

trace it back to where it goes or whose it is.

o. And he was asking you if DNA could sti11 be on

him after he had worked castrating pigs? rs Lhat

accurate ?

A. Yes.

o. Just one last question. Did he te11 you which

finger he used?

A. His middle finger, right hand.

MR. KOHLER: No further questions, your

Honor.

THE COURT: Thank you.

MR. KOHLER: I,m sorry, wait, your Honor.

BY MR. KOHLER:

a. was he concerned about his DNA being present

on or |m was he concerned about Ada's DNA being

present on him?

A. Yes.

MR. KOHLER: Nothing e1se, your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Kohler, may this witness be

excused?

MR. KOHLER: yes, your Honor.

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THE COURT

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

Ehank you very much, Mr

Mr. Boggs, 1et me te11

exclusion has been invo

anybody else about your

is over

MR. BOGGS

THE COURT

Okay?

MR. BOGGS

THE COURT

MR. LONG:

started with this witne

approach briefly?

THE COURT

we need a sidebar?

MR. LONG:

THE COURT

THE COURT:

MR. LONG:

Mr. Green?

Yes, Your Honor.

Okay, sir. f, 11 take that. T

. Boggs. You are excused.

you, though, the rule of

ked, so you cannot talk to

testimony here until the trial

A11 right.

except for the lawyer.

A11 right.

Thank you.

Your Honor, before we get

ss, could Mr. Green and f

Do you want to approach or do

,Just need to approach

Come on up.

Ready? Cal1 your next witness.

f dil, Your Honor. State calls

MR. LONG: -- Judge.

(Bench conference outside the presence of

the jury and the court reporter.)

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Dr. Julie K1ein.

THE COURT: Ma,am, come all the way

forward, please, and r need you to come right over here.

She'11 swear you in.

(The witness, .lu1ie Klein, was duly sworn

by the clerk of the court, dccording to 1aw. )

THE COURT: Okay. please come on over here

and have a seat, Doctor.

Mr. Long?

iIUIJIE KIJEIN,

ca11ed as a witness herein, having been first duly

sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. LONG:

O. Good afternoon, Doctor.

A. He11o.

O. Would you introduce yourself to the jury,

please.

A. My name is Julie Klein.

A. And what do you do for a living?

A. r am Board certified in pediatrics. r work in

the Pediatric Emergency Department at rucson Medical

center, and ilm also the medical director for that

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Pediatric Emergency Department.

o- And how long have you worked for Tucson Medical

Center?

A. Yes. Medical school of course, and then three

years of pediatr j-cs residency.

o. You also stay up to date on research journals,

literature related to your fieldZ

A. f have been in my

years, and prior to that f

there, so I have been there

O. I'm assuming there

went through in order to be

j ob?

current position for nine

did my pediatrics residency

f or a total of 1,2 years.

was some education that you

qualified for your current

least 60 hours of

but f generally do

conferences,

I1y an overview of

it pertains to

A. I do. f ,m required to do at

continuing education every two years,

quite a bit more than that, including

journals like you mentioned.

O. Could you te11 us just genera

what your day entails, particularly as

seeing patients?

A. well, i-t's shift work, so when r arrive for my

shift, generally there's patients waiting already to be

seen, you know. And r see about two and a half patients

per hour, so in a nine-hour shift r see around. 20 to 26

patients, d11 -- you know, all different complaints.

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ft's a whole vari€ty, some injuries, some there with

fevers or, you know, vomiting, whole variety of what you

could imagine would be average complaints for pediatric

patients.

O. And I wanted to talk about the pediatrics.

What does that mean?

A. Age essentially zero, you know. We every

now and then we'11 have a baby that,s dropped off on the

day of birth,' sometimes we' 11 see babies that were just

discharged to home from the newborn nursery. So

sometimes we'11 see a baby that's as young as two or

three days o1d, all the way up until the day before your

18th birthday.

The day you turn 18 at Tucson Medical

center generally you're seen over in the main Emergency

Department, although r have privileges to see up to age

21, and if the main Emergency Department is busier than

I am, we11, then I will see up until that age.

O. So in layman's terms, if a kid comes in and

needs to be seen, you would be one of the people that

they could see; is that right?

A. That's right.

O. For a various number of issues, ailments,

injuries, and whatnot?

A. That's right.

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0. Did you happen to see a chi1d, a patient, on

october r guess the late evening of october 22, 2ot1?

A. YeS -

O. And who was that that you saw?

A. Ada Wi1he1mi.

a. I saw you just glance down at a piece of paper.

Do you have a document in front of you?

A. I do.

O. And what is that?

A. This is the computer records from Ada,s

Emergency Department visit on October 22nd,, 201_!.

O. And what goes into this record that you,re

looking at there?

A. ft includes data such as what time did she

arrive in the Emergency Department, which nurse

initially saw her, what registration clerk saw her, and

then it includes my note, ffiy documentation of her visit.

O. So this does include notes that you either

dictated or entered of work that you did?

A. That's right.

O. f'm going to ask, actua11y, if f could take the

document in front of you and give you this documenL,

which is marked as Exhibit 109 for identification

purposes on1y.

ff you would scan through that and te1l me

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if that's the document that you were just referencing.

A. It appears to be identical, y€s.

0. A11 right. And would there would there be

questions we11, 1et me ask this: Do you have an

independent memory of your interaction with Ada?

A. r do.

O. Additionally, are there some details that you

may need to refer to your notes in order to refresh your

recollection?

A. Yes.

a. What f'd ask is if a question arises where

there is a need to review that report, if you let us

know, and we'11 give you that opportunity with the

Court's permission. But until then, if you would set

that report aside, and if at some point you feel you

need it, 1et us know and we'I1 give you that

opportunity. Okay?

A. Okay.

O. What did Ada present for?

A. Ada's chief complaint was possible sexual

assault with a need for a forensic exam.

O. Okay. And are you a forensic examiner?

A. No, I 'm not.

a. As a physician that works in the Tucson Medical

Center, are these the type of exams that you do, that

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is, the forensic medical exam?

A. No.

O. Notwithstanding that, did you see Ada?

A. I did, yes.

0. Did you did you look at her?

A. Yes.

O. Did you talk to her?

A. Yes.

O. As and why would you, if you,re not a

forensic examiner, why would you why would you look

at her? Why would you examine her?

A. My job as the emergency room physician is to

ensure that Ada was medically stable, that there wasn,t

an injury or another medical issue that required

immediate emergent medical attent j_on.

O. And is that what you did in this case?

A. Yes.

a. And as part of your job as a doctor, is getting

information from a patient important?

A. Yes.

a. And why is that important?

A. ft's the framework for knowing how to help that

patient.

o. And does that information you get go into the

diagnosis?

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A. Yes.

O. And does it also go into a treatment?

A. Yes.

O. Did you speak with Ada?

A. YeS.

O. And when you spoke to her, did she te1l you

anything ?

A. Yes.

O. What was that?

A. Ada told me that Fernando asked her to go see

some pigs, asked if she wanted to go see some pigs with

him, and so she went with him. And then he pu11ed down

her panties and he put his fingers in her, and his

fingernails were sharp and it hurt her.

And she told me also that he became mad

because she wouldn't do what he wanted her to do and he

hit her in the back with a shovel.

o. okay. As a pediatrician do you have experience

in talking to kids?

A. Yes.

O. Talk to a number of kids as part of your job?

A. That's right.

o. was there anything about Ada's language that

was inappropriate to her age?

A. No.

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O. Have you ever dealt with situations where

children have talked or disclosed something, reported

something that caused you some concerns about whether or

not that child had been influenced?

A. Yes.

a. And did you noti-ce any of those concerns or

have any of those concerns with Ada?

A. No.

O. Now, after speaking to her, did you

actua11y, 1et me lm going to ask you, if you would,

you gave us, r think, a summary from from memory from

what she told you. fs that accurate?

A. ft's mostly from memory, but as you know, I

reviewed my notes before I sat down here, so

A. Okay. I'm going to ask you if you,d look dt, f

believe, page 1,6 of your report.

Does that contain your notes that document

your conversation with Ada?

A. Yes.

O. And is there a quotation anywhere in your

notes ?

A. Yes.

o. what does that quotation mean? Does that mean

anything?

A. That does. That means that those were Ada's

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own words.

O. Okay. And I,m going to ask you, if you would,

if you would read what is what the quotation was that

you documented in your report that Ada told you.

MR. GREEN: Your Honor, I,fll going to object

on hearsay grounds.

THE COURT: Overruled.

You can go ahead and answer.

THE WITNESS: Open quote, Fernando asked me

if f wanted to go check the pigs with him. when we went

to check the pigs he pu11ed my panties down and he was

kissing me. He put his fingers in me and his

fingernails are so sharp that they scratched ffie, closed

quote.

BY MR. LONG:

O. And was this a statement made to you?

A. Yes.

o. Do you reca11 whether or not anyone else was in

the room when she made this statement?

A. Ada's mother was in the room. r don,t remember

if a nurse or any other person was in the room.

O. Did Ada's mother do anything to encourage or

prompt her?

A. No.

o. rs that something that you would have at least

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made note of or observed?

A. Yes.

O. And on page 21, of the report, towards the

bottom of the page, does that also provide a note of

what the what Ada saidZ

A. Yes.

O. And is there also quotations on that?

A. Yes.

a. Does that indicate that that's a direct quote

from what were the words of the child?

A. Yes.

a. Te1I us what that was.

A. Open quote, Fernando, he scratched fre, and

yeah, he was kissing r€, closed quote.

O. Te11 us about the examination that you

conducted, the physical examination that you conducted

with Ada.

A. Do you mean explain my findings to you?

o. No. rf you could explain what the examination

was, what techniques or was it a visual inspection,

was there anything specific that you did as part of

looking at her, looking at her physically?

A. So in a situation like this, in general if I

know that a forensic exam has been approved, f don't

look at the child's private parts. But my understanding

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was that it had not yet been approved and that r was

supposed to look and determine is there any reason why

she should have a forensic exam.

So f wore gloves; I explained to Ada my job

is to check your private parts and make sure that

there's not any injury or, you know, see if there,s a

way that I'm going to help you feel better.

And so with mom in the room, I had Ada 1ie

on her back and r put her legs in a frog-leg position

and r looked at her private parts. And in doing so, we

had to remove her panties, and so it was obvious that

the panties had spots of blood in them.

0. Te11 us what, if anything, you observed on Ada.

A. r observed that Ada had an abrasion just at the

base of her left labia minora, inside the labia majora,

but not involving the hymen. There was no active

bleeding, but it was consistent with what Ada had

described to me as the mechanism of the injury

occurring.

o. And that mechanism of injury that she described

was what?

A. Somebody putting their fingers in her private

parts and scratching her.

O. And to clarify, did Ada specifically say who

that person was?

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A. Ada said it was Fernando.

a. The injury that you saw, is that consistent

with or r'11 word it this way: The blood that you

saw in her underwear, based on your training and

experience, did that appear to be directly related to

the injury you observed?

A. Yes.

o. rf you could, describe the width of the injury.

And that might not be a very good question,

but would you be able to describe describe the

injury, I guess, visually what you saw.

A. We11, the what I can say j_n terms of just a

description is that, you know, r did not get a ruler

out, so r can't tel1 you exactly how many millimeters in

length or in width the wounds were, but they were wide

enough that it was consistent with a fi_ngernail scratch

and and, yeah.

A. Okay. Now, when you talk about the location,

you said that it was near the labia minora but inside

the labia majora. Did I get that right?

A. That's right.

o. And if we're talking about the structure, the

female genital structure and referred to as the vu1va,

are you familiar with that term?

A. Yes -

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0. Based on your train j_ng and experience, was this

injury inside the vulva or outside the vulva?

A. Inside.

a. Now, you said something, that Ada reported that

Fernando got mad and hit her with a shovel. Did r get

that right?

A. Yes.

o. Did you observe any injuries consistent with a

shovel ?

A. No, but that doesn't mean it didn,t happen.

O. Why do you say that?

A. There are many situations where we know that

blunt trauma occurred and we don,t see any signs of it.

sometimes bruises never develop, sometimes they develop

later on. So that doesn't mean that the blunt trauma

didn't occur.

O. So that did you have an opportunity did

you take any colposcope pictures?

A. No.

o. Are you familiar with what colposcope pictures

are ?

A. Yes.

o. At some point did you have an opportunity to

get access to the colposcope pictures that were taken of

Ada ?

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A. Yes.

a. And is it your understanding that a sexual

assault nurse examiner examined Ada and took these

photos ?

A. Yes.

O. And you did examine those photos?

A. Yes.

O. And recently?

A. Yes.

a. When did that happen?

A. At approximately 1 o'clock this afternoon.

O. And in viewing those images, was that

consistent with your memory of what you saw on Ada?

A. Yes -

o. And is that also consistent with the notes that

you documented?

A. Yes.

o. rn coming to in offering a diagnosis or a

treatment p1an, do you look for things that are

consistent with the report?

A. Yes.

o. And in this case, is what you saw consistent

with what Ada reported?

A. Very much so.

O. If we were to talk about other things that

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might have caused the injury, could you offer an opinion

as to whether or not those would be consistent or

inconsistent with what you observed?

A. Yes.

o. For example, a barbed wire. rs what you saw on

Ada consistent with a barbed-wire scratch?

A. Not particularly, oo.

O. And what makes you say that?

A. Ada's abrasi-ons were wider than a barbed

wire than what r would expect a barbed-wire scratch

to appear.

0. Okay. I,d like to show you Exhibit No. 106.

And on the there's a number of televisions here , if r

could ask you to look at that.

Have you seen that photograph before?

A. Yes, f have.

a. And in looking at that injury, is that injury

consistent with the injury that you saw on Ada?

A. No.

O. Explain what the differences are.

A. This injury is very narrow. rt appears to have

been caused by some a very fine point, and it,s very

1 inear .

a. And the injury that you saw on Ada, how does

that how is that different than what you,re seeing

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here ?

A- rt was wider, it did not appear to be created

by a f ine point, and it was not nearly as li-near as

this.

0- rf someone was to report that this injury in

Exhibit No. 6 was caused by a barbed wire, would that be

consistent with what you,re seeing here?

A. Yes.

o. Let ' s talk about other potential causes . wou]d

you expect that a fa1l r gruess a faI1 from a fence or

onto a fence would cause this particular injury?

A. I would not expect that, rro.

a. Why is that?

A. r have seen quite a few girls with straddle

injuri-es, and they almost always have bruising. And r

recognize a few moments ago r told you that bruising

does not always develop, but in my experience with

straddle injuries, there almost always is a bruise

associated.

a. And is that associated with the blood flow in

that area potentially? rs that one of the causes for

the bruising in that area?

A. That area is very vascurar, so it bruises

easily.

O. What about external injurj-es? Would you

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230

generally expect to see some ot,her ext,ernal injuries as

a result of a faI1?

A. Very commonly, yes. Many kids if they have

fa1Ien will have abrasions in other areas, their knees,

theirs hands, their elbows.

O. And did you note any injuries oD, I g.uess,

Ada's hands, knees, or anywhere else?

A. No.

O. And if you noted those or if you observed

those, is that something you would have noted?

A. Yes, I would have documented that.

a. Additionally, talking about this area of the

body, inside the labia majora, inside the vuIva, is this

an area that's generally fairly well protected?

A. YeS.

O. Ask you, and with the Court's permission , if I

could show a diagram for demonstrative purposes on1y.

Your Honor, with your permission?

THE COURT: Before you put it ofl, which

exhibit number is it?

MR. LONG: This is Exhibir i_0i_.

THE COURT: A11 right. Mr. Green, you've

had an opportunity to observe that?

MR. GREEN: I believe, if that's the one we

just came up to talk about, your Honor, then f have no

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obj ection.

THE COURT: No objection. Go ahead, sir.

BY MR. LONG:

O. And Dr. Klein, if f could approach, have you

seen the image that I'm about to display?

A. yes.

O. If you,d describe, please, what it is.

A. It's a drawing or a diagram of a female

external genitalia.

O. And does it show, from what you saw, all the

different parts that make up the female genitalia?

A. The external, yes.

MR. LONG: Your Honor?

THE COURT: Go ahead, sir.

BY MR. LONG:

o. what ild ask you to do, if you could hopefully

stand by the drawing there, and if you'd take us through

the anatomy here of the that,s depicted in

Exhibi t 101- .

A. So the labia majora, that's I call it the

labia majora, but you're right, many people call that

the vulva, the outside part of the vaginal area. The

vaginal canal is in there, the labia minora are right in

here.

0- Then there appears to be an openi-ng there. can

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you identify what, that. is?

A. So there's actually two. The top one

urethral opening, and then the vaginal opening

that.

O. And you talked about the hymen. Where

hymen located in relation to this diagram?

r_s

l-s

the

below

is the

A. The hymen is right in here. fn a child that,s

not that has not yet reached puberty, a young gir1,

the hymen would be right in here but appear to be a pink

doughnut. Looks like a pink doughnut in that area.

O. And the injury that you observed, can you

indicate approximately where it is that you saw that?

A. It was approximately in this area at the base

of the left labia minora. So as f mentioned, it didn't

go into the hymen, but it was within the labia majora

and it was affecting the base of the labia minora.

a. I have just put a red mark in the area that

your finger is. would you agree approximately with that

area ?

A.

a.

did you

A.

Yes.

Dr. K1ein, did you

include a diagram of

Yes.

as part of your notes,

what you saw?

MR. LONG: And approach, your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

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BY MR. LONG:

0. And I,m showing you what's been marked as

Exhibir No. L02.

Do you recognize that?

A. Yes.

O. And what is that?

A. That is a page out of my note, fly

computer-documented note, that shows a similar diagram

of external genitalia, where r ind.icated the location of

Ada's injury.

MR. LONG:

introducti-on of Exhibit

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

diagram?

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

and see what it is?

Your Honor, move for the

No. 1"02 .

Mr. Green?

Your Honor

You want to see look at the

The one that

L02. Do you want to come up

MR. GREEN: Yes, if I frdy, your Honor.

Your Honor, rro obj ection.

THE COURT: No objection. A11 right,

Exhibit 1-02 will be marked as admitted and admitted.

Go ahead, sir.

MR. LONG: Thank you. permission to

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publish,,Judge?

THE COURT: Sir?

MR. LONG: I,m sorry. permission to

publ i sh?

THE COURT: yes, sir. f think we,re about

to change interpreters, so go ahead and publish but hold

on with your questions.

(The proceedings resumed with the presence

of Sabine Michael, court interpreter.)

THE COURT: Ready? Okay.

Go ahead, si_r.

BY MR. LONG:

o. Dr . K1ein, the Exhibi t 1,02 that ' s depicted on

the screen, does that include the diagram that you were

just discussing?

A. Yes.

O. I'm going to ask you, if you can, if I put that

diagram side by side with the drawing that you were just

referencing, if you go ahead and get out of your

THE COURT: I ,m sorry. That' s Exhibit No.

what ?

MR. LONG: 1,02 is on the 1eft, the exam

that Dr. Klein authored that was just admitted; 101 is

for demonstrative purposes.

THE COURT: A11 righr.

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MR. LONG: Sorry. f knew it was going to

happen one of these times. A11 right, r think I'm

ready. Let's see how we did.

THE COURT: your witness can get up as soon

as you're ready. you ready?

MR. LONG: yeah.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

BY MR. LONG:

o. Dr. K1ein, Teferring to the zoomed-in portion

of your report, if you would indicate where you noted

that injury.

A. It , s probably di-f f icult to see, but there , s a

number 1 in a circle right here indicating that the

injury was on the left side at the base of the labia

minora.

O. And if you were to correspond that with

Exhibit No. 101, could you indicate where it is you

observed that injury?

A. Right in this area.

O. And again, that is you,re you are

comfortable offering the opinion that that is inside the

vulva; is that accurate?

A. Yes.

O. So in order to get to that pIace, something

would have had to penetrate the vulva; is that accurate?

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A. YeS.

a. And when we're talking about penetrati-on, we,re

not necessarily talking about penetration of the vaginal

canal but of the vu1va, correct?

A. That's right.

o. And in this instance, the report of penetration

of a finger to the vu1- inside the vulva is

consistent with what you observed; is that accurate?

A. Yes.

a. ff you'd have a seat, please.

Now, I'd like to talk about another

possible cause of an injury.

A. Yes.

a. rf there was a report that Ada specifically had

pu11ed her underwear down and had reached down in or

near her vaginal area and had pu11ed outward or upward.,

is that consistent with this injury?

A. No, not based on the location of the injury.

O. Why do you say that?

A. This injury was at about the 5:30 or 6 o,cl-ock

position. r would expect if Ada had scratched herself

in indicating where the injury was, it would have been

closer to a 1-2 o'c1ock or a 1 o'clock position.

MR. LONG: Thank you, Doctor. Those are

all my questions.

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THE COURT: A11 right, sir. Thank you.

Mr. Green?

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. GREEN:

O. Mr. Long was pretty good about coming up with

hypotheticals, but

MR. LONG: Your Honor, I object to that.

MR. GREEN: I,m just

THE COURT: T'm qoing to overrule your

obj ection. We' 11 let that stand.

Go ahead and ask your question.

BY MR. GREEN:

a. So my question to you is, is there anything

that could cause other than a finger, okay that

could cause an injury like that that you might come up

withz

A. Yes.

a. And what would that be?

A. We11, f can,t think of anything off the top of

my head, especially because what Ada described fit the

injury so we11.

a. But it's not the only thing that could cause

ir?

A. That's right.

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0. And you said that it,s not

most of Mr. Long,,s questions, that i

with was your answer, which is not a

that says DO, it could never happen.

you answered, to

t's not consistent

definitive answer

Is that correct?

A. That is correct.

0. so there are situations where other events

could have caused this injury?

That's true.

o. Now, if r were to te11 you that this was a very

rambunctious young lady who lived on a farm or a ranch

and ran around the ranch and played with her brother, is

t,here anything on that ranch that could have possibly

caused this injury other than my client,s finger?

A. of course r,ve never been to that ranch, but r

would guess yes.

A.

o.

A.

o.

Imagine a ranch. f mean, you know, r mean

Right.

there's a trailer in the middle of the of

the park and the kids sometimes probably played on that,

f don't know. But there are other equipment and things

like that around. the ranch that could possibly have

caused this injury in a child such as that?

A. f would have to guess that yes.

o. As for the size of the injury, you said it was

consistent with a fingernail. you didn't measure it,

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but were there is the injury the size of my pinky

fingernail, bigger than that , or littler?

A. I,m not sure how to answer that

a. okay.

A. because all r can te11 you is that when r

took a 1ook, r recognized right away, boy, this rea11y

looks like it could have been a fingernail scratch.

I can te11 you it did not look like a

child's fingernail.

a. okay- Now, fou told us earlier on that this

was an abrasion.

A. Yes.

a. You called it an abrasion. And you just said

it looked like a fingernail scratch. which is it, r

guess? Or is that consj-stent?

A. An abrasi-on indicates a superficial skin

injury, ds opposed to a laceration that is a full_

t,hickness through all the layers of the skin. so what r

meant when r said that was interchangeable. scratch,

abrasion, I meant the same thing.

o. so am r right in saying that an abrasion is

kind of a something sliding across?

A. ft can be.

o. okay- rs there another way that an abrasion

when r think of an abrasion it,s sliding on my elbows on t

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the pavement when f trip or something.

A. That can be, but again, it simply refers to the

thickness of the wound. so you can have an abrasion

from a knife if it's a partial-thickness

a. OkaY.

A. superficial injury.

O. So it's not what the injury looks 1ike, it,s,

what? The depth of the injury? That,s what,s

determinative of how you describe it?

A. ft,s not necessarily how it occurred

O. Sure.

A. is what f ,m trying to explain. So it

doesn't have to be, you know, sliding on pavement.

0. Okay. All right. Is it possible that an

abrasion could have occurred without causing damage t,o

the underwear, to the vulva? rn this location, could an

abrasion have occurred without having damaged the

underwear or the vulva?

A- Do you mean if it if it was a force from

outside of the underwear, if her underwear were sti11 on

when it occurred?

O. Yes.

A. fs that what you mean?

a. Yes.

A. It's possible, but not 1ike1y.

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MR. GREEN: Your Honor, that's all my

questions.

THE COURT: A11 right. Thank you, sir.

Redirect , NIr^. Long?

MR. LONG: Yes, your Honor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. LONG:

O. ,Just 1et me ask some of these follow_up

questions this way. Based on your training and

experience, would it be reasonable to conclude that this

injury could be caused without damaging the underwear,

assuming she, s wearj-ng underwear?

A. No. ft's not it would be unlike1y.

O. So it's not reasonable? It wouldn,t be

reasonable to conclude that, based on your training and

experi enc e ?

A. Righr.

0. would it be reasonable to conclude that this

injury was caused by rambunctious behavior and only this

inj ury ?

A. Can I expand on that a little bit?

a. Sure.

A. From what r observed, Ada was a very bright

or is, r should say is a very bright gir1. you know,

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granted, I met her over a year ago. She was very

brlght, and. she gave me an excellent description of what

she said happened, and based on that, r don't think it

occurred due to rambunctious behavior.

o. so when someone talks about a possibility, as a

scienti-st, you,re certainly not going to say

definitively there,s no other possibility; is that fair?

A. That,s fair.

o. But based on your training and experience, is

what you saw, the injury, is that consistent with what

Ada reported?

A. Yes -

o. And when asked if there,s another possibility,

you said y€s, there's another possibility out there, but

if pressed, you can't think of one off the top of your

head. Did I get thar right?

A. Yes -

O. So if other possibilities were 1ike1y or

reasonable, would you expect, given your experi-ence, you

would be able to come up with one off the top of your

head?

A. Yes.

MR. LONG: Thank you, Dr. K1ein.

THE COURT: Mr. Long, may this witness be

excused?

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MR. LONG: yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Green?

MR. GREEN: yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. you,re not excused yet.

f need to see the attorneys real quickly.

(Bench conference outside the presence of

the jury and the court reporter.)

THE COURT: Dr. K1ein, occasionally we have

additional questi-ons when the attorneys are done and

then r offer the attorneys the opportunity to fo11ow up.

,JURY OUESTIONS

THE COURT: Did you participate in or are

you aware of whether or not the b100d, the spot on Ada,s

panties, were analyzed or was analyzed?

THE WfTNESS: No. I did not have any

involvement in that.

THE COURT: Okay. Did you have any did

you collect those panties? what happened after your

exami-nation?

THE WITNESS: After f examined Ada I spoke

with someone from the pinal county sheriff's Department,

and then they came to the Emergency Department.

THE COURT: Okay.

THE WITNESS: Or actua11y, f may have

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misspoken. r know the SART nurse came shortly after

that, and so either the sheriff's representative or the

SART nurse would have collected those panties.

THE COURT: But you had nothing to do with

the collection and anaj--yzation or analyzing the

blood?

THE WITNESS: That's correct.

THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Long?

FURTHER EXAMTNATf ON

BY MR. LONG:

o. Dr. K1ein, is there any reason for you to think

that the blood that you saw in her underwear came from

anywhere other than the injury you observed?

A. No.

MR. LONG: Thank you.

THE COURT: Mr. Green, do you have any

fo11ow-up?

MR. GREEN: No, your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Now 1et me double_check

the jury. Don't see any other notes there.

Ma'am, ]rou are excused as a witness. I do

need to te11 you, as a formal matter the rul-e of

exclusion was invoked, so until the trial is over you

cannot speak to any other witness in fact, anybody

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but the lawyers about your testimony. Okay?

DR. KLEIN: yes.

THE COURT: Thank you, ma'am.

Mr. Long, do the attorneys want to visit up

here ?

MR. LONG: yes, sir.

THE COURT: Come on up.

(Bench conference outside the presence of

the jury and the court reporter.

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, the topic

is one that we need to discuss, the attorneys and r,

without you here, so I'm going to invite you back to the

jury room. we'11 try to get you back here i-n five

minutes or 1ess. ,-Tust put your notebooks down and. st.ep

outside, if you would, please.

(The proceedings resumed outside the

presence of the jury.)

THE COURT: A11 right. Have a seat,

please- Let's show the attorneys remai-n, Mr. Almanza is

sti11 here, the jury has stepped out briefly.

Mr. Long, te11 me what,s going on.

MR . LONG : .Tudge , the next wi tne s s tha t f

intend to call is Deputy pecora. My intent i-s to get

into an inconsi-stent statement that was made by Kate,

Kathryn Quinn. Ms. euinn was asked about whether or not

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Ada came in earlier in the day and made a statement that

she tickled that Fernando tickled me. she stated she

didn't remember. so she was confronted with that, given

an opportunity to either admit or deny that statement,

and stated she doesn,t remember.

So now I'd 1j_ke to call Deputy pecora in

order to confirm or have him offer the fact that

Ms. Quinn did give him that statement. r acknowledge

that there is double hearsay; I believe they are

both that they can both be overcome.

So that may not have been real clear.

THE COURT: No, it's not.

MR. LONG: Ms. euinn, in her testimony,

talked about when Ada came to her.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. LONG: And she talked about how she

came and said, ,,Fernando touched me', and then

demonstrated the touch.

Mr. Green did confront her with a statement

that's contained in the police report where she said

that earlier in the day, Ada came and said, ,,Fernando

tickled fre, " and then it's reported that she dismisses

Ada and didn't think much about it until she came back.

And when asked about that conversation or whether or not.

that took p1ace, Ms. euinn testified that she didn,t

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remember.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. LONG: And so now I,d like to call

Deputy Pecora as a in order to now get into that

statement as a prior inconsistent statement.

THE COURT: Mr. Green?

MR. GREEN

only talking about one

talking about two, and

THE COURT

to deny your request an

Detective or Deputy

MR. LONG:

up in front of the Cour

Again, Your Honor, we're not.

leve1 of hearsay here, but we,re

sofobject, Iguess.

Okay. And Mr. Long, I,m going

d sustain the objection calling

Pecora for that reason. Okay?

That's why f wanted to bring it

L, sir.

THE COURT: f'm glad you did. And you have

a real clear record, SO f'm glad you did.

Are we done with witnesses today?

MR. LONG: yes, sir.

THE COURT: Okay. Did I remember real

vague. You only have two tomorrow? Three tomorrow?

MR. LONG: Three.

THE COURT: Three.

MR. LONG: The DpS analyst and

THE COURT: Two criminalists, right?

MR. LONG: Correct. And it is the

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serologist, the DNA analyst, and Jackie Hess. I

reasonably suspect that all of those witnesses will be

completed

THE COURT: By noon?

MR. LONG: -- by noon.

THE COURT: And then we don' t have anybody

for Friday? we have to wait for, what is it, Ms. welch?

MR. LONG: Ms. Welch, the SANE nurse.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. LONG: And if it was almost any other

witness, Judge, r think we'd go ild go without her,

but lm asking for the court's indulgence because of the

nature of the witness -

THE COURT: We11, jurors, half of them will

be happy to have Friday off and half will be unhappy

they have to waste a day by coming back Monday, but

we'11 deal with it -

You ready? you ready to quit for the

evening ?

MR. LONG: yes, sir.

THE COURT: you, Mr. Green?

MR. GREEN: yes, sir, your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Bring them in, please.

While they're not quite through the door,

you're going to play the audio also tomorrow, right?

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MR. LONG: Oh, that , s correct, ,Judge . f

think we'11 have time to do it tomorrow, unless you want,

to play that this afternoon.

THE COURT: No. How long is it?

MR. LONG: 30 to 45 minutes.

THE COURT: No. No. And the only thing

that reminded me was having the limiting instruction

here.

And you've looked at it and that,s the

limiting instruction f,m using?

You mean this afternoon?

Tomorrow.

Oh, yeah.

When the audio is played. The

video audio -

(The proceedings resumed with the presence

of the jury. )

THE COURT: Let ,s have the record show that

the attorneys, the Defendant, Mr. Almanza, are sti11 in

the courtroom; the jury has now returned to the

courtroom.

The good news is you can put your notebooks

down. we're going to recess f or the eveni-ng. please

remember the admoniti-on. please be back here, ds we do

every morning, so we can have you all in the jury

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

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250

assembly room about quarter to 9:00 and try to get you

up here by 9 o'clock; again, the attorneys at g:30 in

the morning.

And again we1l, tomorrow morning I will

talk to you or tomorrow during the day f,11 talk to you

more about our schedule for the next few days. But

please, tomorrow morning, quarter to 9:00. We,11 get

you in here at 9 o'clock. we may actually get done a

1itt1e bit early on Thursday, so if any of you have late

afternoon shopping trips or something planned, !ou might

be able to do it.

Please remember the admonition. Okay,

fo1ks. And we' 11 recess oh. He' s signaling me.

Leave your badge in the seats if you haven't already

taken it off, and we'11 you all in the morning.

Show we're on recess.

(4:03 p.m.)

---o0o---

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CERTIFTCATE

I , .facquelyn A. A11en, RpR, a Certi f ied

Reporter in the state of Artzona, do hereby certify that

the foregoing pages 1 - 250 constitute a fu1l, true, and

accurate transcript of the proceedings had in the

foregoing matter, all done to the best of my ski11 and

ability.

SIGNED and dated this 28th day of February,

20L4.

,JACQUELYN A. ALLEN, RPR Certif ied Reporter No. 50 j-51

For the State of Arizona

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