EXHIBIT C

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-3 Filed 05/16/19 Page 1 of 202
IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF ARIZONA

IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF PINAL

THE STATE OF ARIZONA, 2 CA-CR 201"4-0034

Plaint iff , No. CR201103026

-vs -

FERNANDO SEGOVIANO ALMANZA,

Defendant.

Florence, Arizona

October L, 20l.3

8:46 a.m.

BEFORE: The Honorable Boyd T. .Johnson,

,Judge of the Superior Court

REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

,JURY TRIAL, DAY 2

( coPY )

PREPARED FOR:

Arizona Attorney General

Criminal Appeals Section

REPORTED BY:

Jacquelyn A. A11en, RPR

AZ Certified Reporter No. 50151 U

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-3 Filed 05/16/19 Page 2 of 202
INDEX

TESTIMONY

WITNESS: PAGE

CARLI MONCHER

Voir Dire Direct Examination by Mr

Voir Dire Cross-Examination by Mr.

Green

Long

1-4

20

27

68

84

Direct Examination by Mr. Long

Cross-Examination by Mr. Green

Redirect Examination by Mr. Long

ADA WILHELMI

Direct Examination by

Cross-Examination by

Redirect Examination

Mr

Mr.

by

Long

Green

97

L1-7

127

13 l1-33

Mr. Long

.Tury Ques tions

Futher Examination by Mr

KATHRYN QUINN

Long

Direct Examination by Mr

Cross-Examination by Mr.

Redirect Examination by

KATHY BODWELL

Long

Green

l.34

165

Mr. Long L7 6

Direct Examination by Mr

Cross-Examination by Mr.

Redirect Examination by

Long

Green

18s

L97

Mr. Long 200

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EXHTBITS

STATE'S

NO.

t_ - 101

102-103

104-106

1"20

L26A

L26B

EXHIBITS

DESCRI PTION PAGE

IDENTIF IED

PAGE PAGE

MARKED ADMITTED

Photographs

Di agrams

Photographs

Drawing

Bag with dress

Envelope with

underwear

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1-97

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r64

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APPEARANCES

On Behalf of the State:

PINAL COUNTY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE By: Matthew Long, Deputy County Attorney

Bureau Chief

Major Offenders Bureau

Thomas Kohler, Deputy County Attorney P. O. Box 887 Florence, Ari zona 851,32

On Behalf of the Defendant:

COOPER & RUETER , L. L. P. By: Paul Green

P. O. Box 15005

Casa Grande, Arizona 851_30-5005

ALSO PRESENT:

Detective Randy Snyder, Plaintiff's Case Agent Patrick Cote, D€fense Investigator Laura Anderson, Court fnterpreter

Sabine Michael, Court Interpreter Alisha Olivarez, Court Interpreter

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Florence, Arizona

October !, 201,3

8:46 a.m.

REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

(The proceedings resumed outside the

presence of the jury and with the presence of Laura

Anderson, court interpreter. )

THE COURT: Let's have the record show the

attorneys are present, the Defendant, Mr. Almanza, is

present, the jury is not yet.

This is the time each morning when I try to

talk to the attorneys before the jury gets here. we're

going to start off with the preliminary instructions. r

passed them out to the attorneys yesterday.

Mr. Long, dily corrections, changes, or

anything you want to say about the preliminaries?

MR. LONG: No, sir.

THE COURT: How about you, Mr. Green?

MR. GREEN: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I've had copies made. f '11 do

it the way I normally do. We'11 start off with me

reading the preliminaries to the jury, r'11 then invite

the attorneys to make their opening statements.

You'11 be ready, Mrr. Long?

MR. LONG: Yes, Your Honor.

One question, I guess. There was our

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first witness is Carli Moncher. And there was a

discussion about doing needing to do a voir dire

before she testifies.

THE COURT: Oh, y€s.

MR. LONG: I'm f may reference stuff

pertaining information pertaining to Ms. Moncher in

my opening. Additionally, because she's the first

witness, I wonder if it would be appropriate to do that

before we start openings so there's not an opening,

break, and then the witness.

Those are the only issues f wanted to

present to the

THE COURT: Is she out there?

MR. LONG: f don't know if she is now. She

will be in the next few minutes, T know that.

THE COURT: And you intend to mention her

prospective testimony in your opening?

MR. LONG: Yes, Judge, that is certainly a

possibi 1i ty.

THE COURT: I see he' s checking.

Mr. Kohler is seeing if she's out there.

We probably ought to get that out of the

way before we get the jury in here, so y€s, we can do it

that way.

And as I said, Mr. Green, it's limited very

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-3 Filed 05/16/19 Page 7 of 202
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simply to voir dire about her CV or her ability to

testify on the area she's going to testify to.

Who else do you have coming as witnesses

this morning? What I would like to do is get as many

sworn in at one time as we can.

MR- LONG: The victim's mother will be

here; the victim, although she is not scheduled to be

here until just a few minutes before we expect to have

her on the stand.

THE COURT: Oh, okay.

MR. LONG: And then the victim's brother,

,Jack Ink, again is a minor. He like1y won't be here

waiting around.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. LONG: Those are and then those

are the only ones for this morning. And then this

afternoon, Kathy Bodwe11, which is the person who did

the forensic interview. And she'11 she won't be here

until lunchtime.

THE COURT: Okay. We11, then we'11 just do

them one at time as you call them. ft's better that

way .

And f'm waiting for Mr. Kohler to come

back.

Any other areas we need to cover before we

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s tart ?

MR. LONG :

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

Your Honor.

THE COURT

MR. LONG :

Mr. Green or for ease o

that we stipulate to at

106. Mr. Green indicat

to that, so I'd like to

that.

THE COURT

exhibit numbers are?

MR. LONG:

THE COURT

That's all I have, Your Honor.

How about you, Mr. Green?

No, other than the voir dire,

Okay.

Your Honor, I proposed to

f, I guess, or for efficiency,

least the photographs that are

ed yesterday he had no objection

propose I'd like to propose

Do you know what the actual

Yes. It's Nos. 1 through 106.

So if it's 1 through l-06,

wouldn't that be 1,07 photos? uTust a thought.

MR. LONG: You know, that makes sense. And

now you've corrected my horrible math problem as to why

I started with 107 and ended with 106, so I appreciate

that, ,Judge.

THE COURT: I don't know, f'ffi just

thinking. You're moving to admit them.

Mr. Green, you've had a chance to look

through them?

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MR. GREEN

Your Honor.

THE COURT

has been marked?

MR. GREEN

have no objection at th

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

on a foundational basis

subj ect to the testimon

the photos?

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

all doing, Tight?

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

106 are marked as admit

I have looked through them,

Are you familiar with whatever

Yes. And Your Honor, I guess I

is point to those.

You have

Yes.

no objection to it, either

or any other basis at this time,

y of witnesses who testify from

Correc t .

Do you understand what I mean?

Yes.

Okay. And that's what you,re

Risht.

Let's show Exhibits 1 through

ted and admittedAnd he sti 11 didn't come back.

MR. LONG: She's on her wdy, Judge, and

she's in town, so she'11 be here within five to ten

minutes.

THE COURT: Okay. We11, from my point of

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view, I'm going to step out, take the photos with me and

keep marking them so they get done, and Todd will come

and get me.

You know, dctua11y, Todd, come and get me

when she's here. After we get her on the stand you may

want to go down and te11 the jury we're going to start

about 15 minutes after we had planned on. Okay, we'11

take a short break.

(Recessed from 8:53 a.m. until 9:01- a.m.

The proceedings resumed outside the presence of the

jurv.)

THE COURT: Let's have the record reflect

again that the attorneys, the Defendant, Mr. Almanza,

are present in the courtroom, the jury is not here

yet.

For clarification real quickly, the

attorneys or the State had moved to admit Exhibits 1

t.hrough l- 0 6 and identi f ied them as photographs . The

Defendant's counsel indicated he had no objection.

Going through and marking these, f noted that

Exhibits 103 and L02 are not photographs but are

diagrams, and L02 had some commentary on it.

Mr. Green, you saw those. And do you

intend to not obj ect to those? That was part of the

package to which you posed no obj ection.

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MR. GREEN

I had the most concern

the State has to prove

I would.

THE COURT

Are you withdrawing you

obj ect to 1 through 1-06

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

MR. LONG:

THE COURT

Those are the two I guess that

about, so if I can request that

foundation on those two exhibits,

Let's do it a different way.

r statement that you did not

as to Exhibits 103 and ]-02?

Yes, Your Honor.

There you go, okay.

Are you ready, Mr. Green?

Yes, Your Honor.

fs Ms. Moncher here?

She is.

Come on up, ma'am.

They will not be, then, marked as admitted

at this time. They are marked, though, and subject to

foundation, appropriate testimony, might be admitted on

the proper witness.

So make sure you show that, 102 and 103,

okay ?

Okay. And what we intended to do before we

got the jury in here is address Mr. Green's concern, and

this is to Ms. Moncher.

fs the State ready to proceed?

MR. LONG: Yes, Your Honor.

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And who do you have lined up behind you on

this side of the bar?

MR. LONG: f'm sorry. This is a paralegal

and support staff that were just helping me with the

technical stuff that I think is resolved now.

THE COURT: Okay. We11, let's keep this

side of the bar as clear as we can.

Ms. Moncher, come on up front, please/ over

here, please, and we'11 get you sworn in.

(The witness, Carli Moncher, was duly sworn

by the clerk of the court , dccording to 1aw. )

THE COURT : Okay, rnd ' am. Come on over here

and have a seat. ,Just kind of pu1l up and get

comfortable. And remember, you need to speak into the

microphone. It will bend and move as you need it to.

MS. MONCHER: Okay.

THE COURT: We've had her sworn in.

And Mr. Long has indicated he intended to

call you as a witness. When he did that, Mr. Green

interposed some concern and requested voir dire.

Why don't we just start with that voir dire

and ask her what you need to. Well, 1et me back up.

For the record, with her here, just tell

me the purpose of calling her, what her presentation

is.

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MR. LONG: Yes. Ms. Moncher is a cold

expert, is to testify about victimology and to educate

the jury about common reactj-ons that victims have

towards abuse and to educate on what may be some

not-so-common reactions to abuse as we11, dealing with

some of the myths; that is, myths that are out there.

She's also to testify generally about

memory, the forensic interview process, and to educate

the jury about that aspect of child abuse

investigations.

THE COURT: Okay. And you had indicated to

the court previously that she has no knowledge of any of

the underlying facts of this particular case?

MR. LONG: That's correct.

THE COURT: And I think you asked me to

direct that Mr. Green in his voir dire not assert or use

in his voir dire process any of the facts of this case,

but to stick to the foundation, the voir dire issue.

Correc t ?

MR. LONG: Correct.

THE COURT: And Mr. Green, you understand

that is your limitation?

MR. GREEN: Yes, f do, Your Honor. yes.

THE COURT: Okay, go ahead.

MR. GREEN: Okay.

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CARIJI MONCHER,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly

swofn, was examined and testified as follows:

VOIR DIRE

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. GREEN:

0. Ms. Moncher, thank you for being here today

and for allowing me to interview you just ahead of the

time that we're asking for your testimony.

Ms. Moncher, can you te11 flle , what,s your

educational background?

A. I have a bachelor of science in criminal

justice from Northern Arizona university and a master of

arts in psychology, also from NAU.

O. And do either of those have a specialty

attached or are they general generalist degrees?

A. The undergraduate degree had a specialty in 1aw

enforcement or concentration in 1aw enforcement.

O. And have you had in your master of

psychology, did you that one, you did not specialize?

That was a general --

A. That was a general degree, yes.

O. degree? Okay.

You're being asked today to testify as to

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victimology. First of all, can you describe for me what

that is?

A. Victimology being the study of victims of

crimes, specifically in my particular area would be the

study of child victims of crimes.

a. So you've done additional training or

additional education, or is that part of your master's

degree and bachelor's degree?

A. Both.

O. I did ask a compound question, you're right.

Was that part of your bachelor,s degree?

A. No, part of my master,s degree.

O. Okay. And you've had additional training as

well?

A. Correct.

O. And what does that additional training

ent.ai 1?

A. I typically will attend at least 40 hours,

generally more, p€r year of additional study related to

victimology, memory, suggestibility, things that would

be pertinent to the forensic interview fie1d, as well as

the general 40-hour training, which r both attended and

now teach.

O. Okay. By its name, ,,victimology,,, I get the

impression that this is presented as a scientific

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process. Is that correct?

A. f don't necessarily present it that wdy, no.

O. Okay. How would you present it?

A. I don't rea11y have an answer for you because I

don't know what's being asked of me.

O. Okay. We11, my question is this: Science

tends to rely on data that is based on research and that

is based on studies and things like that. Is

victimology is the education that you have received

and the trai-ning that you have received, is that based

on some form of scientific research and data?

A. Absolutely. A great amount of research and

literature has been dedicated to child victims of crime,

particularly sexual abuse, as well as my own practice

with children in working with that particular type of

crime.

O. And what of that research, what research,

how many different studies, how many different we11,

how many different studies have you studied related to

this topic?

A. I don't have a specific number for you. I have

read hundreds, maybe thousands of studies at this point.

O. And of those hundreds, maybe thousands of

studies, these are all different studies or studies that

have been updated or

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A. Both.

O. Okay. And of those, do they all agree?

A. No.

0. Has the as you research over time you

said that every year you do 40 hours or something like

that. Has the process of understanding victimology

changed over the course of the years?

A. Certainly there are enhancements and changes

over time, but victimology has been a fairly consistent

body of literature over the past 15-ish years or so.

O. And you said that the studies don,t always

agree . Where they don ' t agf ree, where , s the

di sagreement ?

A. We11, if you look at things like

suggestibility, which would be included within the field

of victimology, particularly when dealing with child.ren,

there are disagreements as to the 1eve1 of

suggestibility depending upon the age of child.ren,

depending upon the nature of the study themselves;

things like are you looking retrospectively at an actual

group of children who were involved in an evaluation for

some type of abuse versus a field type of study, if you

wi1l, where they're setting up some type of experiment

and looking at suggestibility and suggestibility and

how that is reported and disclosed or not disclosed by

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the children involved in that field study, of course

you're not going to have a di-rect translat,ion f rom that

lab or field study as you would in working with children

who are directly involved in evaluation of some type of

criminal victimi-zation .

So the outcomes of these studies are going

to be dependent upon how the studies themselves are set

uF, what the group of j_ndividuals are who are

participants in those studies, what the nature is and

their involvement; many different factors in how the

results will either agree or disagree with each

independent study.

A. So if the studies disagree, and I 'm assumi-ng

there's you talked about one area where they

disagree. f'm assuming that there may be other areas

that they don't always agree; is that correct?

MR. LONG: Your Honor, I'ill objecting to

this line of examination. This is voir dire, not

cross-examination nor an interview.

THE COURT: You're right . Sustained.

Narrow it down, Mr. Green. Let's deal with

whether she can testify or not, her background.

BY MR. GREEN:

O. Have you testifj_ed in court before?

A. Yes, sir.

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a. How many times have you testified?

A. Approximately 25. Within the capacity or

within my capacity as a forensic interviewer,

approximately 25, maybe 30 times.

O. And have you testified for the prosecution or

for the defense?

A. Both.

O. Do you know the amount for each?

MR. LONG: Your Honor, is this an interview

or voir dire?

THE COURT: That ' s i f you ,re obj ecting

to the form of the question or nature of the question,

it's sustained. Those are subject to cross-examination

issues, not foundational, not voir dire.

BY MR. GREEN:

a. And are you currently employed by an agency or

are you self-employed?

A. f am employed by Flagstaff Medical Center.

O. And does that employment does that

employment involve what you're doing today?

A. Yes.

O. Is this part of your employment at Flagstaff?

A. Yes -

O. What are your duties at Flagstaff Medical

Center ?

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MR. LONG: Your Honor, f'rl objecting Lo the

question. This is beyond voir dire for foundation.

THE COURT: It is, and your objection is

sus tained .

Any additional foundational questions?

MR. GREEN: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Long, do you want to

have any f guess you can call it cross any

questions of the witness?

MR. LONG: One question.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

VOTR DIRE

CROSS-EXAMINATTON

BY MR. LONG:

l

O. Ms. Moncher, have you testified in the pinal

County Superior Court before?

A. Yes, I have.

a. Have you testified and been found to be

qualified as an expert to testify about what you

anticipate testifying to today?

A. Yes, f have.

MR. LONG: Those are all my questions.

THE COURT : That was two . Jus t thought f ' d

point that out.

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MR. LONG: My math is not my strong suit,

'Judge . I apol ogtze .

THE COURT: r noticed that.

Anything else?

MR. GREEN: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Ma'am, we're going to do

it this way: Because you're not actually on the witness

stand yet you have been sworn, I need you to wait

outside the courtroom until you're ca11ed to testify.

When f do bring you back in, I'11 te1l the jury that you

have been sworn, but we're not going to go through that

again. Okay?

MS. MONCHER: Okay.

THE COURT: Thank you.

(The proceedings resumed outside the

presence of Ms. Carli Moncher. )

THE COURT Mr. Green, with Ms. Moncher now

off the stand, do you w

time ?

ant to make any motion at this

MR. GREEN

make the motion that Ms

exc luded

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

Honor, of that I don

Your Honor, I would like to

that this testimony be

Okay.

mainly on the basis, your

't believe the science is

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proven.

THE COURT: A11 right. Mr. Long, anything

you want to say quickly in response?

MR. LONG: No, sir.

THE COURT: Good. Your motion is denied.

She's qualified. Obviously, the questions you started

getting into are reasonable cross-examination questions,

but she's qualified to present the testimony she has

previously in this court and she has established her

credentials, so the motion is denied.

Are you ready now to start, Mr. Long?

MR. LONG: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Are you, Mr. Green?

MR. GREEN: f drTr, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Did you bring them up or are

they sti11 downstairs?

THE BAILIFF: They're sti11 downstairs.

THE COURT: Okay, fo1ks. That means it

will be about five to ten minutes. we'11 start as soon

as the jury is in.

We're on a recess.

(Recessed from 9:15 a.m. until 9:28 a.m.

The proceedings resumed outside the presence of the

jurv. )

THE COURT: Let's show the attorneys and

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-3 Filed 05/16/19 Page 23 of 202
ZJ

Defendant are present.

The jury is now available, and Todd, if you

would bring them in, please, we can get started.

Let me double-check. Mr. Long, anything

else?

MR. LONG: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Green?

MR. GREEN: No.

THE COURT: If you wou1d, sir.

(The proceedings resumed with the presence

of the jury. )

THE COURT: Let's have the record show

that the jury is now in the courtroom, and the attorneys

and the Defendant, Mr. Almanza, are also in the

courtroom.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is the beginning

of the tria1. I talked to you in voir dire about a

number of issues. What we're going to do right now is

pass out to you the preliminary instructions. They,re

in this format. when you get those, you're very welcome

to keep them out and fo11ow along as I read the

instructions to you.

You can also, Lf you wish, just put them in

your notebook, in your notebooks, and listen to me as I

read these. You'11 keep these during the course of the

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t,riaI. If at any time you want to review them, f ee1

f ree to do so, okay? And I'm going to wait unt,i1

everything gets passed out.

Todd, would you f want to make sure the

attorneys each get one of those. Would you give one to

the interpreter so she has one?

Okay, fo1ks, 1et's get started.

(Pursuant to Pinal County Administrative

Order No. 94-01, preliminary instructions are not

included in this transcript but were conducted at this

time. )

THE COURT: Okay. As far as preliminary

instructions go, any additional, Mr. Long?

MR. LONG: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, sir.

Do you, Mr. Green?

MR. GREEN: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Thank you very much.

Ladies and gentlemen, now is the beginning

of the case, and as I told you, it is time for opening

statements.

Mr. Long, if you're ready, please proceed.

MR. LONG: Thank you, Your Honor.

(Pursuant to Pinal County Administrative

Order No. 94-07 , opening statements are not included in

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this transcript but were conducted at this time. The

proceedings continued with the presence of Sabine

Michael, court interpreter. )

THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Green.

Ladies and gentlemen, it is now 10:30, and

that's when we normally would take our short morning

break. We have a witness lined up. My concern would be

if we put the witness or], we're going to end up taking a

break pretty late in the morning, so f,m going to go

ahead and take the morni-ng break right now.

Please remember the admonition I talked to

you about. We'11 try to start again hopefully at l-O:45,

10:50 at the latest. Fol1ow Todd out and I'11 see you

in about 15 or 20 minutes.

(Recessed f rom 10:30 a.m. until

10:54 a.m. The proceedings resumed with the presence of

the jury.)

THE COURT: Let's have the record show the

presence of the attorneys, the Defendant, Mr. Almanza,

and the jury is now back in the courtroom.

Is the State ready to proceed?

MR. LONG: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Green, are you ready to

proc eed?

MR. GREEN: f drrr, Your Honor.

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THE COURT: A11 right. Mr. Long, if you

wou1d, please.

MR. LONG: State ca1ls Carli Moncher.

THE COURT : A11 r j-ght .

Ma'am, if you wou1d, all the way forward,

please. And if you would come on over and have a

seat.

Ladies and gentlemen, this witness has

already been sworn.

MR. GREEN

would just like to re-u

witness

Your Honor, for the record I

rge my objection to this

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

stated.

THE COURT

previously stated on th

overruled.

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

Sure.

for the reasons previously

Okay. And for the reason

e record, your objection is

Thank you, Your Honor.

Go ahead , have a s eat , fltd ' am .

And again, just kind of pu1I up and get comfortable

and put the mic where you can speak into it. Very

good.

Mr. Long?

MR. LONG: Thank you, Your Honor.

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CARLI MONCHER,

ca11ed as a witness herein, having been previously duly

sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. LONG:

a. Ma'am, would you introduce yourself to the

jury, please.

A. My name is Carli Moncher. I am a forensic

interviewer for the Safe Child Center at Flagstaff

Medical Center.

O. What is a forensic interviewer?

A. f conduct evidenti-ary interviews of children

where there has been some allegation of abuse or

maltreatment as well as witnesses to major crimes, and

adults with developmental disabilities.

O. Now, in a 1ittle bit I'd like to ask you some

questions about that forensic interview and some

specific aspects about that, but first could you te1l us

about your education that you have that qualifies you

for the job that you have?

A. f have a bachelor of science in criminal

justice from Northern Arizona University and a master of

arts from also from NAU in psychology.

And I attended the basic forensic interview

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training, which is an eight-hour course provj-ded by the

state of Arizona through prevent child Abuse Arizona in

conjunction with the Governor's office, as well as the

40-hour advanced forensic interview training also put on

through the Governor's Office, and have attended

numerous ongoing trainings since those initial

trainings.

0. And how long have you worked as a forensic

int ervi ewer ?

A. About five and a half years at this point.

a. Through the course of your job, have you kept

yourself updated on literature pertaining to child

sexual abuse?

A. Yes, f have.

O. Are you involved in any do you engage in any

peer review processes?

A. Yes. r attend and coordinate the peer review

for northern Arizona for forensic interviewers, as well

as attend and participate in a monthly peer review

process which is done nationwide through a telemedicine

type of conference setting, and then wi11, on occasion

with newer interviewers, do one-on-one type of peer

review training.

O. And what is peer review, if you could explain

that ?

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A. Peer review is basically where we wi1l take

interviews that are conducted, either by myself or other

forensic interviewers, we will take those interviews and

watch them, review them, €ither provide feedback or get

feedback from other interviewers, and basically use them

as a training tool for either myself or for other

interviewers in maintaining ski1ls or building skills as

interviewers.

O. And you talked about staying up to date on the

literature pertaining to child sexual abuse. rs there a

body of work that deals with this, this area?

A. Yes, a rather large body of literature

pertaining specifically to this area.

O. And what types of things does the literature in

these studies talk about?

A. Things such as victim responses to sexual

abuse, the sometimes offender behaviors involved,

particularly with sexual abuse, memory, sugg,estibility,

language development, cogrnitive abilities, specif ic type

of memories. ft's a pretty large area.

O. And this is, I guess, a thumbnail of some of

the areas that you're familiar with?

A. Correct

a. And you

and the studies

've kept up-to-date on this literature

pertaining to these areas you've just

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di scus sed?

A. Yes.

O. Do you do any teaching?

A. Yes, I do. f teach for the State of Arizona

through the Governor's Office, both the basic and the

advanced forensic interview training. r teach classes

on memory, orr linguistics, on suggestibility, orr peer

review and multidisciplinary team building, a vari-ety of

instruction.

O. Have you ever testified in court?

A. Yes, f have.

O. Approximately how many times?

A. Within the forensic interviewer capacityf

O. Let's start there, with the forensic interview

capaci ty .

A. Roughly 25, 30 times.

0. Have you ever test have you testified for

the State, defense, or both?

A. Both.

O. In this case you're here to testify to, were

you did you conduct any of the interviews involved in

this case?

A. No.

0. Do you know the gender of the Defendant in this

case?

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A. Yes, f do.

O. And how did you know that?

A. Through my subpoena that was issued by the

County.

O. Okay. So you were able to crack that code as

to who was being accused, at least?

A. Correct.

a. Are you aware of how many victims are alleged

to be involved in this case?

A. No, I am not.

a. Are you aware of the ages of the victims

involved in this case?

A. No, I am not.

O. Did you learn whether or not the name or

gender of any victims in this case?

A. I don't know if I did learn one name and it

was inadvertently given to me by the prosecution. I

don't know if that is a victim or what role the

individual has, but I did learn a name, yes.

O. Okay. Did you learn anything about that

person's name, that is, the age?

A. Oh, ro, I did not.

O. The grade?

A. No.

O. The nature of the allegations?

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A. Outside of the fact that I'm aware we are

talking about a child sexual abuse case, no.

O. Okay. Fair that within that realm, there are a

number of different types of acts?

A. Yes.

0. And are you aware of what type of act the

Defendant is alleged to have committed?

A. No, f am not.

O. Are you familiar with the relationship between

the Defendant and any potential victims?

A. No, f am not.

O. Are you did you review any reports that

might have been generated?

A. No, I have not.

O. Are you here to make a diagnosis?

A. No. I would not be able to with the

information that r know, and r would not do that anyway.

0. And that was my next question. Even if you had

all the information, would you be able to make some sort

of diagnosis?

A. No, I would not.

O. And why is that?

A. Because even with the with having a ful1

account, if you will , of that j-nf ormation, it' s not

my it's not in my professional capacity to make some

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type of dj-agnosis that would be able to identify or say

that a child has or has not been abused.

O. Have you been given any information with which

you might be able to tailor your testimony today?

A. No, f have not.

a. So if you didn't do an interview or rea1ly know

the facts of this case, what is it your understanding

you're here to testify about?

A. General characteristics regarding abuse,

regarding victims of abuse, more of those kind. of g1oba1

or general dynamics that are involved within the abuse

process.

0. And has there been any research done on how

children react to sexual abuse?

A. Yes.

O. Tell us about that.

A. Typically when we're talking about reactions

from children in regards to abuse, immediately at the

time of the abuse or as the event itself is occurring or

the events themselves are occurring, the typical

response that we see from children is something that's

referred to as the fight, flight, ot freeze syndrome,

with the fight or flight being very characteristic to

what is commonly referred to in any type of stressful or

traumatic situation.

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But with children, because their world

experience is fairly limited and their physical

resources are also fairly limited, particularly when the

offender is an adu1t, they don,t have that ability,

typically, to be able to get up and run away or to be

able to fight off their offenders, and nor do they have

that world experj-ence that would te11 them what they are

supposed to do in those type of situations.

So typically what we will see from children

and what the literature reports is that children will

most often freeze. They will play possum, if you wi1l,

or do absolutely nothing in response to that assault or

to that trauma.

O. And is your experience consistent with the

literature that you just talked about?

A. Yes, it is.

O. And so what can happen when a child does freeze

as you described?

A. f think I'm going to have to ask you to clarify

the question.

0. Sure. Are you familiar with the concept of

disassociation?

A. Yes.

O. Could you explain what that is?

A. Disassociation is basically where an

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individual, doesn't necessarily have to be a chi1d, but

where an individual will separate their cognitive

awareness from their actual physical body.

And in children, what is often reported,

particularly in related to these types of traumas, is

they will talk about being present in the room and can

identify themselves as a party who is in the room, and

yet will often talk about themselves in third person,

will talk about themselves as a separate being, will

talk about either being in a in a type of floating

type of capacity where they'11 talk about being above

what's going on or sometimes just physically removed

from where that incident itself happened.

Say, for instance, if there was something

that happened on a couch, children wilI talk about being

in a different part of the room, and yet when you ask

them who was on the couch, they can identify that it. was

them, themselves, on that couch. So they are

disassociating, ot taking themselves out of that

situation, as far as their mental or cognitive

affiliation with that incident goes.

O. Does research te11 us or talk about how this

freez:-ng response can impact specific details about an

incident and a child's ability to recall specific

detai 1 s ?

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A.

o.

Yes, it does.

TeI1 us about that.

A. What the research has shown is that there are

some neurochemical types of responses that happen within

the brain with these traumatic incidents that are

happening, where basically we get people in

general -- where we experience trauma, and in this case

children, get a flood of certain types of hormones, and

they're distress hormones, that cause that fight or

flight syndrome to kick in. We see things like

norepinephrine, cortisol, those stress hormones that are

in effect for all humans will peak or spike for children

as they are experiencing that traumatic situation.

How those are related is that those

those particular hormones can be toxic for the brain.

And rea11y what they te11 the body to do is to shut down

those nonvital or noncore functions of the body because

there is some type of threat, something that is

happening that is dangerous for the body, and therefore,

it's looking to maintain resources.

So you'11 see things like advanced

respiration, faster breathing, the heart rate will

increase. we have things like lack of fine motor skills

in those situations oftentimes because that's not a core

body need or necessity at that point, ds well as things

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like difficulty with remembering precise details of

exactly what has happened, because again, it's not a

core necessity for that particular moment as far as

being able to stay alive or to address the threat.

a. So based on your training and experience and

research that you're familiar with, does an inability to

remember specific details indicate that the child's not

telling the truth about something that happened to them?

A. No.

O. You talked about this disassociation. Are you

familiar with instances where children report something

that either clearly didn't happen or is impossible to

happen ?

A. Yes.

O. Do you have a name for that?

A. Yes. We refer Lo that as something cal1ed

fantastic elements or fantastic statements.

0. Could you explain that to the jury.

A. Basically what these are are, as the

prosecution has stated, they're things that we know for

certain did not happen, could not happen. And they're

often reported in ways such as some type of act on the

child's part to aggress onto the offender or the

perpetrator.

So we'11 see things like children will

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report having stabbed or shot their perpetrator or run

them over, pushed them off a c1iff, things of that

nature, which we know absolutely are untrue as the

perpetrator is sti11 alive and breathing, and yet

children will report having done this, typically in the

fashion of this is what I was able to do.

It's a means for children to cope with what

has happened and what seems so irreconcilable for them

as the way that this abuse or this vict imtzation has

occurred for them, and yet they had, because of their

state of being children and being fairly dependent and

helpless when compared to adults, they had. no recourse

or no action to take.

Oftentimes children will create internally

these scenarios where they are able to take some

recourse, and oftentimes they are fairly exaggerated

like that.

O. And you g.ave us one example of these fantastic

elements of a child physically defending themselves.

Are there others that you're familiar with? rs this the

only type of fantastic disclosure or fantastic elements?

A. No. Children will talk about being able to fly

or flee would be another type of fantastic element.

You'11 have sma11 children that will report being able

to drive vehicles or having some type of magical power

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t,hat allows them to f 1ee the situation or escape what

has happened.

But typically within these fantastic

elements, it is somehow related to either an increased

sense of strength or some type of magical capability

that is going to a11ow them to somehow alter that

victimization process for them.

O. All right. Have you are you familiar with

any instances where a child has described being

specifically attacked or overcome in explaining in

utilizing this fantastical element?

A. Yes, for just that same reason where we have

children trying to cope with or reconcile that

victimization process.

And particularly when there are those

increased feelings of helplessness, as a way to sort of

explain or make sense to them as to how this

victimization has occurred, children will sometimes

describe a very exaggerated or overwhelming type of

being taken over or being taken captive as a way to help

them cognitively reconcile what has happened.

O. But if these types of elements might exist,

doesn't that indicate to us that the other things the

child said isn't true?

A. No, not necessarily. It could mean that there

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are other mistruths within their statement, but the

research has shown in cases where there is external

corroborative evidence of what children are saying,

things like medical findings, sexually transmitted

infections, genital injuries, things of that nature,

suspect confession, media involving pictures or video of

the actual crime occurring, where there are these

fantastic statements or these fantastic elements

involved within the child's telling or report of that

incident, and yet there are these separate evidentiary

findings that would support what the child is telling

overal 1 .

a. Are you familiar with the concept of

victimology or the stages of victimology?

A. I'm familiar with something referred to as the

process of victimology. Not so much stages.

a. Thank you for correcting. The process of

victimology. could you explain to the jury what that.

is?

A. Yes. The process of victimology is basically

contained within five different segments, if you wir1,

and not necessarily in any specific order, which is why

I needed to clarify that.

The components of the process of

vict 1-mtzation are targeting, engagement, groomirg,

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assaulting, and concealment. And while they do

sometimes have some structure as far as order goes, they

oftentimes will kind of go back and forth within those

different components or elements, so not necessarily a

staged-type process in that. way.

O. f'd like to talk about, that first the first

segment that you talked about, targeting. Did I get

that right?

A

o.

Yes.

What would make a child vulnerable to being the

target of sexual abuse?

A. For children themselves there are many

increased risk factors, things like a lack of family

support or lack of family regular contact, lack of peer

interaction or peer support, which is going to leave a

child more isolated, more vulnerable to having somebody

else come in and fill some type of missing component or

void for that chi1d.

Having an unrelated male living in their

home has been identif ied as a risk f actor f or child.ren,

as well as some of the more personal dynamics for those

children or individual characteristics for children,

things like children who tend to be shy or reserved,

quiet, children who don't tend to interact well with

peers, who do not have an established relationship with

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at least one caregiver to whom they can report, or relate

significant information to, developmental disabilities,

particularly language or cognitive disabilities or

significant physical disability, ds well as a host of

factors involving the family dynamic, particularly

involving caregivers.

Things like substance abuse, domestic

violence, those type of things are going to put children

at increased risk.

O. Can the offender's preference impact targeting?

A. Absolutely, yes.

O. Te11 us. Explain that.

A. As far as offenders go, there are some

offenders who will report having a specific either

gender preference, a specific age-range preference

for some a very delineated or very specific age; some

just need to fa1l within a certain age rangle, such as

prepubescent range as well as other physical

characteristics. Could be the color of hair, body type,

body size, that sort of thing.

And then outside of those physical

characteristics, some of those more individual

personality-type characteristics involving children are

often reported by offenders, looking for specifically

children who are more withdrawn, are more isolated, more

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quiet, more unlikely to te11 basically what has

occurred.

a. And what would be the impact on the victim of

this targeting?

A. Typically the impact of targeting on the victim

is targeting itself is pretty low in that it's more

of an offender type of behavior. It's a selection

behavior from that offender, that perpetrator. But what

we often see is kind of the next step, or what happens

in conjunction with targeting is the engagement process,

which will tend to have a large impact on children.

O. Can you explain what engagement is, the

engagement process?

A. Engagement is basically the developing of a

relationship with a child or a set of children. And

oftentimes we see the perpetrators will do this with an

entire family, where if they are not already in the

midst of the family, if they're not a part of that

family, they will begin to insert themselves into that

family in a way that makes the members of that family,

including that child or those children, come to have a

loving and trusting relationship with them so that

they're they have more free access, basically, to

those children.

Within that engagement process, while we

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most often see that development of a love and trust

relationship, we do sometimes see and have children

report more of a power and control type of relationship,

where there's more authority being instilled as opposed

to that more loving and dependent relationship.

And then sometimes we will have children

that will describe both, where there's very much a love

and trust relationship that is instilled until there is

some type of wrongdoing or some type of transgression,

and then there is that kind of instilling of sort of

that power and control type of scenario. And then once

that wrong, whatever that was, has been addressed, it

will go back into that more loving and trusting type of

ro1e.

But the overall goal of that

engagement-type behavior is to develop that

relationship, and particularly a relationship involved

in some type of dependeocy, be it for the things that

they need, for things that they crave, the things that

they want, but some type of dependent relationship upon

that individual.

a.

victim?

A

component

And what impact does engagement have on the

The children will report that this particular

, the engagement component, very much ties them

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to that individual, that they feel rike this is a very

significant relationship for them, and that if the

relationship itself was to go away, that that would be

devastating somehow, that they would be losing something

significant.

And it also increases that sense of

helplessness for children that is attached to the

process of being a victim, where they don't fee1 that

they have anywhere else to go or have any control or

power to make those the situational, whatever is

happening for them, to make them change. Because in

order to make that change, children understand that they

would have to somehow lose that relationship that has

become so significant or so dependent for them.

O. Does your training and experience tel1 you

anything about the 1eve1 or length of engagement as it

relates to disclosure?

A. Yes.

O. Explain that, please.

A. Typically the longer that engagement process,

so the more seated and secure that relationship is, the

likelihood for the length of time that it's going to

take for children to te11 somebody about what has

happened or what is happening will be longer. There

will be a longer delay as that relationship or that

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engagement is more secure.

O. What's the next step in the process of

victimization?

A.

o.

Grooming.

Explain that, please.

A. Grooming is basically a blurring of what we

would consider to be normal, healthy boundaries,

particularly related to sexual contact, sexual

information, that type of thing.

The way that grooming typically works is

that perpetrators will do things to start that are

seemingly fairly benign to you, to ffi€, to children in

general. They may have a child come sit on their 1ap or

wrestle with a child, tickle a chi1d, help a child at

bath time or getting them ready for bed when that would

be age appropriate for that chi1d. Those wourd all be

some can be examples of how grooming behavior might

s tart .

But as it progresses, what we will see is

that perpetrators are increasing or advancing their

behavior from those initially innocuous types of

behaviors to either putting their hands on children in

ways that could be inappropriate or introducing material

to children that could be inappropriate, things like

sexual type of humor or walking out into a room without

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their clothes on. And as they do that, they offer

explanations or reasoning to children for what is

happening.

So for example, if they have started out by

putting a child on their 1ap and then their behavior

escalates, they may then at some point put their hands

on that child's buttocks, and as they are engaging in

that advanced behavior, will te11 a child that it was an

accident or that their hand just was resting there and

it wasn't their intention to do anything that was

inappropriate or bad.

And they gauge that child's response to

see/ basically, can I get away with this, can I te11

this child that this was an accident or that r didn't

mean to do something that was inappropriate and will

that child be receptive of that explanation. And if so,

then that behavior can escalate and continue to escalate

over time.

And oftentimes what gets reported by

children is there is a point in time where they no

longer know what this behavi-or means, what is exactly

happening.

And if they question that offender or that

perpetrator about the behavior, perpetrators will

they will take them back to that earlier behavi-or. They

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will point out the fact that the children were okay with

whatever that earlier behavior was, that touching of

their buttocks or that accidental putting of the hands

in their pants, or whatever that explanation was at an

earlier stage, and point out to children that they

didn't te11 at that earlier stage and sort of manipulate

those facts so that children become very confused and

start to take ownership of what is happening. They

start to take that responsibility, or at least share

that responsibility with that offender for not having

done something earlier to have stopped what they didn't

know was wrong at that point.

O. And I think you just touched on that, ffiy next

question, which is what impact this has, this grooming

process has had, on the victim.

A. The typical things that are reported are things

like confusion, not understanding what has happened to

them, and then that shared sense of responsibility or

that taking that ownership for what has occurred and

believing that, dt least in part, that the abuse is

their fault because they didn't do what whatever they

should have done.

And for the most part, children will

they didn't te11 somebody about what had happened.

those earlier st,ages of the grooming process, and.

report

IN

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therefore, they feel responsible for what has happened.

O. And are the grooming methods, do they need to

be the same for every child?

A. No.

O. What is the next step in the process of

victimization?

A. The next step would typically be the assault,

which is a pretty much going to be whatever that

sexual act, whatever that might be for that. individual.

For the most part it's going to be a hands-on type of

behavior, but it could also be things like filming or

exposing oneself to a chiId. rt's rea11y going to be

dependent upon the perpetrator.

O. In talking about assault, the assault phase,

are you familiar with instances of situations where the

victim was assaulted with others present or nearby?

A. Yes.

o. what would the impact would this have on the

victim?

A. what children reported to me directly and what

the literature says is, basically when children are

aware that there are others either in the same room or

within the same home in a nearby p1ace, is that it

increases, one, that sense of responsibility that

children did not cry out, did not do something to alert

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somebody that something was wrong, and also increases

that sense of helplessness, where children feel that

there was somebody nearby, somebody who could have

helped, and yet thi s continued to happen . Nothing, rro

intervention happened. Even though perhaps mom or

grandma or somebody else was in the next room, this is

sti11 continuing.

And that will increase that sense of

victtmization that these children rea11y have there

is no other alternative for them.

O. What impact could this have that is, the

abuse with somebody present or nearby have on a child

who is witnessing or might be nearby the abuse?

A. f'm sorry. Can you repeat the question?

O. I can. If the person that,s nearby the abuse

is a chi-ld, might this have an impact on the child

witness that's nearby the abuse?

A. Oh, certainly. Witnesses to abuse,

particularly those who are within close proximity,

oftentimes describe that same type of fearful response

of freeztr,g or of not knowing what to do at all, so they

oftentimes will not have much of a response, if dfly,

again, for the same reasons. There's that terror or

fear that's instilled within them.

They as wj-tnesses, they too have a very

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low leve1 of world experience if we're sti11 talking

about children, so although it's not being directed at

them, they're seeing this happen to another chi1d.,

another sma11er, less powerful individual, and their

understanding of how the world works is sti11 being

processed through that mind, through that experience of

a chi1d, and can be very, very frightening.

O. What's the next segment in the process of

victimization?

A. Concealment.

O. And could you explain that, please.

A. concealment is basically any action or behavior

on the part of the perpetrator to get that child or

those children not to te11. And this can 1ook

different, depending upon the perpetrator or depending

upon the different relationships with individual

children with the same perpetrator.

We see things like making overt threats to

children to either harm them, to harm their family, to

harm their pets, to take things away from them.

Sometimes the if there are threats involved,

sometimes they are much less direct or overt, more

covert or more manipulative, and just telling children

that if somebody is to find out or if that child is to

te11, that others will be angry with them, will be angry

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with that child as opposed to bej_ng angry with the

perpetrator.

They will

themselves that is,

trouble and be sure tha

they do get in trouble,

fault for having to1d.

te11 children that they

the perpetrator will get in

t children understand that if

that it would be that child's

We often will see things like bribes and to

very different levels or scales. f've seen very

advanced or very sophisticated style of bribes, things

involving electronics, vehicles, phones, cash, all the

way down to very 1ow 1eve1, a bag of Hot cheetos and a

soda or a candy bar, things that are going to be

enticing to children but not very advanced or not much

in the way of monetary cost, and yet very effective with

chi ldren .

And then things like telling children that

if they are to te1I somebody or if they d.on't continue

to engage in that behavior, whatever that sexual contact.

is, that they will just move on and find another target,

perhaps a sibling or somebody else that would be of

significant value to that chi1d. And so children will

oftentimes report trying to protect those other siblings

or the other children that are involved.

O. Specifically dealing with younger children, are

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there instances where a child might not know that the

touch or the conduct was wrong?

A. Absolutely, yes. r have had children report

not only that they didn't know it was wrong, but that i_t

was something that they enjoyed, particularly if it's

somehow connected to a positive interaction with t,hat

perpetrator.

Typically, particularly with younger

children, they will sometimes report , if there's nothing

painful about that experience, rrothing that's negative

or somehow associated with something bad, that they

don't know initially that it's a wrong behavior until

that perpetrator somehow indicates to them that it's a

secret, either because they have to do it when nobody

else is around or because that child isn't allowed to

tel1, ot just the way that the perpetrator acts in their

overall demeanor with that raised anxi€ty, that children

will start to learn that there is something wrong with

that interaction or that behavior.

But up untj_l they start to understand that,

oftentimes, pdrticularly the young ones, don,t

that behavior is wrong: if it's not painful to

chi ldren

know that

them.

o.

point

And you talk about concealment. At some

are you familiar with the concept of

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disclosure?

A. Yes.

O. And are there different ways in which

disclosure happens?

A. Yes, there are.

a. Explain that, please.

A. There are direct or intentional disclosures,

where purposeful disclosures, where a child basically

will initiate telling somebody. This is going to be

your child who approaches a teacher at school or goes up

to mom and says, I have to te11 you something, and

discloses that information to that individual.

There's also something that's referred to

as a prompted disclosure, which basically is just where

somebody will ask a child about something that they,re

seeing or some concern that they have, and the child

will then disclose in response to that prompt or to that

initial question or ask.

And then there's something that's referred

to as an accidental disclosure. Typically we see with

accidental disclosures where the information is sort of

blurted out, where there was no intention on the part of

that child or no decision made on their part to actively

te11 someone or looking for some type of assistance to

make that abuse stop. They just, €ither in the conLext

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of an argument or some type of emotional type of

settirg, they just sort of blurt out this information.

And children will oftentimes, following

those, those type of disclosures, those accidental

disclosures, will oftentimes report wanting to take it

back, and yet understanding or knowing that they can't.

o. Are you familiar with the concept of piecemeal

disclosure?

A. Yes, I am.

a. Explain to the jury what that what that term

means.

A. Piecemeal disclosure is also referred to as

partial disclosure. And it basically means that

of tenti-mes what we see with children is when they are

disclosing or when they are telling somebody about what

has happened to them, they will te11 it in pieces.

So they may initially, if they are

reporting to mom, they might initially te11 mom that

someone has touched them and not provide any more

information than that, and yet in talking about that in

the future, ffidy disclose that there's been more than

just a touching type of contact, there might be an oral

and genital contact or genital-to-genital contact,

something of that nature.

And the reasons for this are many. Some

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are just the more conversational type of interactions

between humans. rt could be that when that child

initially discloses to mom, mom has a response in such a

way that makes that child determine that at least for

that period of time, that they don,t want to or that

they don't need to te1l any more than that. or it could

just be that mom sort of takes over that conversation at

that point and that child sort of loses control of the

situation that they started out by telling, and

therefore, for that period of time they are done

di sc 1os ing .

Some of it's related to memory and how

the way the way that memory works and how we cue our

memories in that as we talk about things, we don,t often

remember the entirety of things in one telling of it.

This is why we can go to work and teIl one coworker

something, and then when we go to work and the next

coworker asks us the same question, there can be a very

smal1 amount or difference in what we te1I them, even if

it's something basic as like how was your night or what

happened yesterday or something to that effect.

And then sometimes children will report

that they are testing the waters, so to speak. When

they te11 people about what has happened, they will

sometimes give little pieces of information and see what

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response they get, and if it seems like that response is

safe and appropriate, then they will give more

information. Sometimes it can be immediately; sometimes

they will open up at a later time. And they will

continue to do that, where they are giving more and more

information and making sure that the response that they

get is a safe response and an appropriate response.

a. Can the way that questions are asked impact the

amount of disclosure that a child gives?

A. Abso1utely, yes.

O. And in fact, ds a forensic interviewer, are you

trained to ask questions in a certain way?

A. YeS.

a. Explain that to the jury, please.

A. Within my training, the way that we are trained

to ask questions is to ask questions in as open-ended of

a fashion as we can, things that are going to elicit as

much narrative response as possible.

0. Can I stop you, Ms. Moncher? Why is it

important to elicit a narrative response from a child?

A. Basically what we ' re looking to do and why it,s

important to do this is because when we ask those

open-ended questions, when we gain that narrative

response from a chi1d, it's their words. It,s their

telling of the story. It's that information is not

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coming from the person asking the question, be it myself

as an interviewer or mom or whoever it is that's asking

that question. The information is coming from that

chi 1d.

And because of this, what we're doing and

the way that this training or what this training is

rea11y focusing on is to minimize what we call

suggestibility. And within children, particularly

younger children, the vulnerability to suggestibility is

higher.

O. And so this interview is structured to get

information from the child. Are you looking for are

you looking for anything pertaining to language as

you ' re speaking wi th the chi_ ld?

A. Yes, and we evaluate their language

capabilities. Are they developmentally appropriate for

their age; can they answer questions appropriately; are

they understanding the questions that are being asked of

them and then giving an appropriate response for that,

as well as looking at the child's language that they are

supplying to us and assessing if that is developmentally

appropriate language for a child of whatever age we have

with us.

O. Let me stop you. Why are you looking for that,

or what does that te11 you, if a child is not using

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appropriate language for their development?

A. It could be that we have a child who just has

an exemplary developed vocabulary, but typically what

that would mean is, if we have language that is above

what should be or would normally be considered

developmentally appropriate, typically when we see that,

we have some type of influence from an adult, be it a

directly intentional situation where we have a parent or

guardian who is coaching a child, or that the child has

overheard things being said between other adults.

But typically when we have that type of

language coming out, it's some type of external

influence on that chiId.

O. And is the interview, the techniques, and the

questions that you ask meant to be able to possibly

reveal that?

A. Certainly. If we have that style of language

coming out from children, we normally will ask them

where they where and how they know this language, where

is it coming from.

You know, if a child reports that they knew

words that were clearly above what would be considered

an average development for their chronological dge,

we'11 try to f i-gure out what the source is of those

words.

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A. As you're talking with children, are you

looking for instances where the child will correct you?

A. Yes.

O. fs that important to identify?

A. Absolutely, yes.

O. Why is that?

A. It goes back to that vulnerability of

suggestibility.

Suggestibility basically means j-t's two

parts. one, it could be that somebody introduces some

information to a child, be it accurate or not, and the

child will actually take that information into memory

and incorporate that information as their own, as if

they remember it. This is for example, this happens

when children will be shown pictures of family vacations

or whatever the case may be and will then later report

that they reca11 actually being there when they earlier

had no memory of that at all.

And then sometimes children will get a

piece of information, and even though they know that the

information is incorrect, they will just acquiesce or

just agree that that information is correct rather than

saying flo, that's not right.

And within the interview context, it's

particularly important that if we somehow, ds the

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interviewer, if we make an error, if we hear them wrong

about something or if we make some type of assumption

that is incorrect, it's important that they will correct

us, that they will te11 us that we have made that error,

and would point out to us that this child is less

vulnerable to suggestion than another child who i-sn't

willing to do that.

THE COURT: Hold on just a second.

(The proceedings resumed with the presence

of Alisha Olivarez, court interpreter.)

THE COURT: A11 right, Mr. Long. Go ahead.

MR. LONG: Thank you.

BY MR. LONG:

O. You talked about, in the course of an

interview, attempting to get a narrative from a chi1d.

A. Yes.

O. Is that correct?

Are there times when you might need to ask

direct questions?

A. Yes.

O. And is there a difference between a direct

question and a question which suggests information?

A. There can be. you can ask a different style of

a direct question, a direct question basically being

something that is going to limit the amount or the

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possible amount of information that you might get in

response to your question.

Some styles of direct questions are going

to be yes-no questions, did this happen, did this

happen. Those would be yes-no questions and would be

very direct, as opposed to a multiple choice, which

would also be a direct question, ot a w-h question, who,

what, when, where. A11 of those would be examples of

direct questions.

You can ask a child what happened, which is

sti11 a direct question, sti11 fal1s under that w-h

question, but a very open, non-suggestive question. And

you can you can ask those yes-no questions which may

have to introduce a limited amount of information in

order to get some type of response to know if there is

indeed information to fo11ow up with.

And oftentimes in clarifying things within

the interview with children or in trying to figure out

if there's additional information that's needed to be

gathered, you will have to ask those direct style of

questions before there's anywhere to move on.

O. When you are going through an interview, is a

child's ability to describe a sensory experience

something that's important for you to look for?

A. Absolutely, yes.

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A. Why i s that, ?

A. rt basically provides not only context for how

the abuse itself occurred, but it provides insight into

whether or not that child has knowledge particularly

relating to sexual experience that a child of that age

or age range developmentally should not have and would

not have even if it was something that they had somehow

seen or overheard.

If a child is describing something that

they taste or something that they're actually feeling

physically on their body, even if i-t's something that

they had acci-denta11y or if somebody had purposely

exposed them to that, sdy, orr a computer screen or

something like that, they sti1l should not have that

additional sensory experience or that knowledge that

they may be reporting within the interview.

O. I'd like to talk about your knowledge and

experience in behaviors of victims of sexual abuse. Are

you familiar with the research regarding behaviors,

common behavior characteristics of victims of sexual

abuse?

A. Yes, f am.

0. And is it possible to make a diagnosis of

whether or not a child has been a victim of sexual abuse

simply based on the behaviors that they exhibita

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A. No. There is no set, behavior display or set of

behaviors that children will display as a response to

having been a victim of sexual abuse. The literature

has been very consistent in stating that there is no

read, no magic symptomatology that we can look for in

order to say that yes, this child has been abused and we

can rule out this child as having been abused.

And in fact, in dealing with children

within my own practice, r have seen a very wide range of

behaviors from children, both within the interview

process itself as they,re talking about the abuse, as

well as outside of the interview where they're just

playing or interacting with family members. A very,

very extensive range of behaviors from children.

O. And just as a sample, could you give us some of

the range of behaviors that the research te11s us might

exist?

A. You might see things like aggression, you might

see things like children being very withdrawn or

isolated, you may see things where children act

flirtatiously or seductively wherein they are very flat

or have rea11y no affect or emotional expression coming

across at all, sort of a blank type of expression or

affect.

I have had children laugh as they are

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talking with me at seemingly very inappropriate times.

f certainly have had children cr-y, sob. f have had

children intentionally run into the wa11s, climb on

things, crawl underneath things, touch me in very

inappropriate ways and places. So that range of

behavior is incredibly 1arge.

o. And do any of those behavi-ors indicate whether

or not the abuse happened?

A. No.

o. And does research show that some children may

exhibit no behaviors?

A. Yes.

o. r'd like to talk to you about your experience

and observations of the way children behave when talking

about abuse, which is a 1itt1e different than what. we

just talked about just a second ago. Approximately how

many interviews have you conducted in the course of your

five-p1us-year career?

A. ,-Tust over L,j00.

o. And in addition to those 1-,700, you've observed

interviews that other people have conducted?

A. Yes, I have.

a. Is there any way that you could offer a guess

at how many interviews you've both conducted and

observed over your career? And r understand that might

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be a difficult question.

A. My best estimate would be f've observed about

150 or so interviews, so maybe somewhere in the area of

1,850.

O. And based on your experience, additionally

or 1et me ask this of you. rs there any research or

studies that talk about behavior of the children who

when they talk about sexual abuse?

A. Yes, there are.

O. Are you familiar with those as well?

A. Yes.

O. Given your experience, extensi_ve experience and

knowledge on the subject, do children display a certain

mannerism when talking about sexual abuse?

A. No, they do not. There is

O. Explain that, please.

A. There is no prescribed mannerism that children

will display. It's going to be unique to that chi1d,

unique to the circumstances, as well as the connection

and interaction with the interviewer. you may have a

child who is behaviorally acting one way with one

interviewer, and if you change the interviewer you would

get a different set of behaviors, just like children are

with other adults, teachers, caregivers, that type of

thing. But no, there is no one way.

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And in fact, the literature is very clear

in cautioning those of us who work within the child

maltreatment field to not make any prescriptions or any

judgments based upon the child,s affect, at the time of

disclosure.

O. Does the literature te11 us anything about the

environment where a child is talking about sexual abuse

and how that might impact impact the child's

di sc 1o sure ?

A. Yes.

O. Explain that, please.

A. The literature talks about the comfort 1eve1,

basically, of the environment in gaining information

from the child, as well as the leve1 of vulnerability to

suggestion with children in different environments,

where basically children are less vulnerable to that

suggestion in an environment that is at least neutral,

if not somewhat child-friendly, somewhat less

frightening for children or somehow made accessible for

chi ldren .

And the information that is gained tends to

be you tend to gain more information, you get more of

that narrative information from children in a set.ting

that is physically comfortable for children.

MR. LONG: May I have one moment?

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THE COURT: Go ahead, sir.

MR. LONG: Thank you, Ms. Moncher. Those

are all my questions.

THE COURT: A11 right, t,hank you.

Mr. Green?

CROSS-EXAMfNATION

BY MR. GREEN:

O. Ms. Moncher, 1rou talked us through the process

of victimology or victimization, I believe?

A. Yes,

O. Which would it be? Victimization?

A. Yes.

O. And f,m sorry, but I'm a littte bit confused,

so I just want to try to clarify some things.

You talked about targeting and targeting

being the purpose something that the perpetrator

does, correct?

A. That is correct.

o. so it's not something that necessarily impacts

the victim?

A. Outside of being selected or targeted, no.

O. So if there is abuse, that abuse was effected

because the perpetrator chose the victim?

A. Yes.

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O. And that's what the effect would be, correct?

A. That's correct.

O. But the victim has no knowledge that they're

being targeted until something happens; is that correct?

A. Most of the time, y€S.

O. Okay. And then you talked about engagement,

which is developing a relationship with a child; is that

correc t ?

A. Yes.

O. And sometimes that,s even with the entire

fami 1y ?

A. That is correct -

O. So I walk into a 1et,s say I'm a soccer

coach and I want to be a coach to the family, you know,

to the kids in the family, and r build a relationship

with that family based on my coaching soccer, correct?

A. Could be, yes.

O. Now, that could be either me coaching, being a

soccer coach, ot it could be me being a potential

perpetrator; is that right?

A. YeS.

O. So there's rea1ly no difference between the

normative and the and the person who is a victimizer?

A. At the point that you are describing,

absolutely. Up until the point that there,s some type

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of criminal act or sexual act, yes, they are often the

same.

O. Okay. Now, in this engagement, you also talked

about love and trust and power and control?

A. Yes.

O. And when we talk about power and control, it

has a tendency in society to be kind of a negative

connotation, but when you rea11y look at parents, aren,t

parents building a relationship of power and control at

some 1eve1 --

A. Certainly.

O. when they're raising their child.ren?

A. YeS.

a. And is that not appropriate?

A. Hopefully so, yes.

O. And love and trust clearly f mean, parents

are building a relationship of love and trust?

A. Hopefully, y€s.

O. Sometimes even a soccer coach can build a

relationship with love and trust with some of his soccer

people; is that correct?

A. Yes.

O. Nothing abnormal about that?

A. Not at that

O. Not at this point?

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A. Correct.

O. Now, then you talked about grooming, and you

talked about, you know, step by step, you know, things

getting a 1itt1e bit more and a little bit more. But

again, I want to go back to a normal family, okay?

We've got a father, we,ve got a friend,

we've got a coworker, we've got somebody who comes into

the household who is a lifelong friend of the parents.

And the kids know him or her, and the kids have known

this person for a long time. They run and they jump and

they jump onto his lap and give him a big hug. Anything

abnormal about that?

A. No.

O. Wrestling with

there anything abnormal

A. That's rea11y

normal for that family.

behavior, then perhaps,

appropriate body places

inappropriate.

parents or with somebody

about that?

going to be dependent upon what,s

If wrestling is not a normal

but if the wrestling is all in

, then no. It couId, however, be

Is

O. Okay. Tickling. I know that's a hot topic,

right? some people think tickling is abuse, some think

it's fun, but r don't know. But tickling is a normal

behavior. Grandparents come into the house and sdy, oh,

come here, you know. fs that an abnormal behavior?

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A. Again, outside of those privat,e areas of one,s

body, tickling would generally be seen as an

appropriate, non-abusive behavior.

a. And helping a child get dressed and bathing a

chi1d, those are all normal behaviors in a family,

correct ?

A. When yes. When developmentally appropriate

or age appropriate for that chi1d, yes.

a. Okay. And how do we determine whether it's age

appropriate or developmentally appropriate?

A. Typically we wouldn't see a parent trying to

help a child get dressed, particularly from a totally

unclothed stage, when that child is maybe Ll-, !2, L4.

That's generally seen as not age appropriate, dssuming

that that child is of averagie development and can do

those things for themselves.

O. Is that a societal norm? Is that because

some families, maybe that is normal.

A. Very much a societal norm. But it is going to

be different within each individual family or within the

relationship with each child.

0. And the thing that makes these behaviors

problematic is when they move on to other conduct; is

that right?

A. We11, certainly the individual behaviors

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themselves would not necessarily be problematic. And

they do escalate or would become problematic or seen as

problematic as they do escalate, but they also, in

retrospect, before they have escalated to that

sexualized contact, will help us understand or help

explain how that contact, how that hands-on assault,

whatever that was, how that came to be. what was the

graduation or the progression of events to where that

perpetrator was able to put their hands on that child in

a sexually assaultive manner.

O. So this analysis is this analysis always

retrospective? fn other words, if you walk up to a

child or you see in a park a parent playing with his

child and they start wrestling, that d.oesn,t

automaticarly set off a trigger in your head that says

sex abuse is going to be happening soon

A. That's correct.

O. right? Okay.

So it's not a prospective or a symptomatic

kind of issue, it's more of when we look back when we

know that there ' s sexual abuse and we l-ook backwards, we

can see where it started.

A. Exactly.

O. Okay. Does the process ever skip a step? I

mean, you listed out five, f believe, steps in here.

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What happens if there is no engagement, there's just

grooming?

And engagement and grooming are kind of

similar, aren't they?

A. They're very much related, yes. Not

necessarily not the same concept,s, but they are very

much related concepts.

O. So if one of those is missirg, does that

indicate more or less that there's actually a victim in

this case or that the victim was actually

victtm:-zation actually happened?

A. No. You may have a less successful , if you

wi11, perpetrator who may be found out sooner, or where

the that sexualized-based relationship may not

continue on for nearly the amount of time. But just

because a perpetrator doesn't engage in grooming or in

concealment or something along those lines doesn't mean

that you have a child who is or is not abused.

O. Okay. So this may be a rea11y difficult

question, because f'm having a rea11y hard time

understanding how the information you're providing is

useful to us. And ilm not saying that in a critical

wdy, honest to God. I'm just trying to

MR. LONG: Obj ection, argument.

THE COURT: Let him finish whatever the

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question is.

Finish the question.

BY MR. GREEN:

O. How does that information help us to better

identify whether we have a victim in this case?

THE COURT: Okay, hold on. Don't say

anything.

Do you have an objection?

MR. LONG: I do. ff we could approach,

Judge.

THE COURT: Sure, come on up.

(Bench conference outside the presence of

the jury and the court reporter.)

THE COURT: Okay. For the record, the

obj ection was sustained and Mr. Green was directed to

rephrase the question.

BY MR. GREEN:

a. What f'm getting at here, I guess, is that if a

1ot of these behaviors, a 1ot of these indicators that

you've described in here, a 1ot of the things that

happen when we have a vi-ctim, we see that in normal,

everyday families, w€ see that in normal, everyday,

relationships, whether they're by families or teachers

or coaches or anybody e1se, how do we distinguish that

we have a victim when these behaviors are seen in

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non-victims, I guess is

THE COURT:

ahead.

the question?

If you're able to answer, go

THE WITNESS: I leave that to you. I can

give you the information that I know and both from

the literature and from working with hundreds and

hundreds of children, and would ask you, as the jury, to

take that information in tota1, because we are talking

about a total range of behaviors or set of behavi-ors

from perpetrators.

And as Mr. Green has been talking about it,

he's talking about it in one individual behavior of

helping a child to change their clothes or tickling a

child or wrestling with a chi1d. And absolutely those

individual behaviors, as they are taken on their own,

would 1ike1y be appropriate and certainly not criminal

in most situations with children, but it is a totality

or the entire explanation that I would leave to you, as

the jury, to.take from that what would seem useful and

important to you.

BY MR. GREEN:

O. Even if we had all of those behaviors,

ticklirg, wrestling, even if we have all of that,

could still be in a normal family?

A. But you're only addressing one component

ir

of

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that process of victimization. At the point t,hat there

is, sdy, penetration of a child's vagina, or

masturbation of a child's penis, or genital-to-genital

contact where we have the assault component of that

process of victimization, the tickling, the wrestling,

all of that stuff may no longer be as innocuous as a

situation or a family dynamic where there is no sexual

contact or no assault type of behavior involving a

chi 1d.

O. If we would have known, absolutely knew that

there was sexual contact, does that automatically mean

that all of those behaviors previous were prior to

this process, that they were inappropriate?

A. I missed the can you repeat the first part?

O. If we know we have sexual contact, we,re

looking backwards now and we look and we see tickling

and wrestling and things that could be indicating

grooming, things like that, does that automatically,

because we have sexual contact, automatically mean that

all of these behaviors were inappropriate?

A. No. And rea11y, in order to solve the mystery

of that, we would have to ask the offender what were his

or her intentions in engaging in those behaviors.

a. f believe Mr. Long addressed this a 1itt1e bit,

but what effect when a person discloses, a child

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18

discloses, whether it, be to a parent or teacher or

whatever, what part does the reaction of the person

receiving the information have on the child?

A. It can have a huge reaction or a huge part

in how the child either continues to disclose or later

on whether or not a child retracts or takes back their

statement.

There are very multifaceted consequences to

how the individual who receives that information, how

they respond to that child. And it's because of this

that we are trained for, at least in the forensic

capacity for those of us who do forensic interviews, to

very much modulate our response to children as they are

disclosing or talking about what has happened to them.

We certainly don't want to give them either

the impression that what they are saying is somehow

wrong or bad or shocking and shut down that child, which

is certainly possible with a parent or a teacher,

something of that nature, and nor do we want to somehow

offer to that child that they're doing good and that

they should provide more information than what they have

so that they get reinforcement or that we are somehow

giving them something in return for providing us

information that may not have been experienced.

So it's very much a balancing act. But

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that response from whomever is taking that information

then can be very, very significant.

O. And can t,hat response go so far as to encourage

a child to 1et me rephrase it.

Have you seen where that where a

parent's response or reaction on the initial disclosure

affected the child to fabricate or make up more of the

story that maybe didn't happen?

A. r certainly have had cases where that has been

a concern.

From my role within any investigative

process, I don't f don't go far enough within the

investigation to be able to say whether or not there was

any conf j-rmatory or not evidence of what this child had

said, so I can't say that certainly that y€s, it has,

but there certainly has been concern of that.

o. so that could happen whether the parent intends

to actually coach the child or just reacts in a certain

way naturally without any intention whatsoever, correct?

A. Yes.

O. You talked about suggestibility, and as a

defense attorney, r have to talk to you about coaching.

And I have to what is the impact of coaching on

children who avow that there's been sexual abuse?

A. Sometimes you will have children who will

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basically parrot or give the information that they are

coached with, coaching being where an adult or a

caregiver will te11 the child basically what information

to provide. And sometimes with coaching you will have

exactly that, where children will parrot or give back

the inf ormation that they've been told to say.

Typically that's where we will start to see

that developmentally inappropriate language, where

children will talk in ways that are not appropriate for

their age 1eve1 or their knowledge 1eve1. Because

again, Lf we go back to that lack of world experience

with children, they can't change that language around to

make it match what would be appropriate for a 6-year-o1d

or a 7-year-o1d because they don't have that world

experience to be able to change that language and make

it appropriate for them.

Sometimes the coaching is ineffective or

the children will report what they've been told to sdy,

but then will also te1I you that in fact they were told

to say it and who it was that told them to say it. So

it can have a couple different effects with children,

and sometimes they don't say what they've been coached

to say.

It can coaching in itself can be veryt

very stressful for children. rt can provide very, very

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high levels of anxiety at, tj-mes where children are very

torn, because they realize that they have been asked or

told to say something that is untrue and they d.on't want

to do that, and yet the person who has told them or

coached them to say this is somebody that they love and

that they realize it would be doing in that person's

eyes it would be doing something good, and yet they know

that to te11 an untruth would be bad. And so they feel

very conflicted, and it can be very anxiety producing

for them.

O. ,fust a couple questions f or you. As f ar as

coaching is concerned, are there other than

inappropriate language and/ or language above their

developmental 1eve1, are there other indicators that

are that studies have found, f mean, or that you in

your experience have found, that indicate that, yeah,

maybe coaching has happened in this case?

A. Yes, things like lack of being able to provide

real1y any contextual information for how something has

happened. And this is where that kind of parroting

behavior will come in, where you'11 ask a child to te11

you what happened, and really all they can tell you is

that single statement or set of statements that

something has happened, and they can't provide anything

further.

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So we might ask them where something has

occurred. And they can't answer that question, but they

can/ then again, te1I you that maybe if the initial

statement, was daddy touched my pee-pee, and you're

asking that child where were you when d.addy touched your

pee-pee, and this child doesn't have an answer for that

but they can reaffirm or re-te11 you, daddy touched my

pee-pee, there's a parroting type of behavior that,s

happening there, where we don't have any other

contextual information that' s happeni-ng, again, because

children can't fill that information in with information

or world experience that they don,t have.

So there's that lack of contextual detail

which will oftentimes point to us that there may be some

coaching that's going oh, along with that

developmentally inappropriate language.

And then sometimes children will give more

nonverbal cues in more of that anxiety type of display,

where they will physically look towards or look back

towards the last place that they saw a parent, where

they're physically looking to them, even though they

can't see them, ds a way to try to get some indicator of

what they're supposed to do, what they're supposed to

say.

So there are other indicators than that,

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yes.

O. And when you have either known that there,s

coaching, the child admits to it without I mean,

states that there was, or when it's you just have a

rea11y good gut feeling that there is coaching going orr,

are there particular types of family settings or

relationships I mean, just as an example we11, f

won't give you an example. you te1l me what they would

be that would 1et the more 1ike1y that coaching

would be occurring in that kind of a situation?

A. There are some situations where it is more

1ike1y.

Things like child custody disputes, divorce

type of scenario, where even if custody i-s not an issue

at that particular time, it is 1ike1y to become an issue

at some point; where the breakup of some type of

relationship, even if there's not a 1ega1 marriage but

where the parties are separating, Lhose do tend to have

higher incidence rates of coaching, as well as some type

of vengeance situation involving adults, where there

is somebody is trying to get back at another party.

Those would be the situat.ions where it is more 1ike1y

that you would see some type of coaching with children.

O. fs there any way to know that a child is lying?

f mean, is there any way to know for sure that this

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child is lying?

A. Outside of, 1ike, some form of media, a

recording or photographs, basically no.

MR. GREEN: Thank you.

THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Green.

Mr. Long, dfly redirect?

MR. LONG: Yes, Your Honor.

REDTRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. LONG:

O. Are you familiar with the concept of

corroborative evidence?

A. Yes, I am.

o. what are some types of corroborative evidence

that you're familiar with?

A. Things like eyewitnesses, admissions or

confessions that are made from the suspect themselves,

physical evidence from either from the child, from .

their body or from a particular scene, things that a

child says that can be somehow externally corroborated,

where they may describe a certain viewpoint or vantage

point within a certain room and you can go out to that

location and actually see what that child is saying.

That those physical sensations that a

child may describe within the context of an interview

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that we were talking about earlier, where that

information rea1ly has to be experiential, children

don't gain that type of information, even if it's from

exposure, they don't gain that tactile or sensory

information unless it's somehow experienced or someone

has told them exactly what to say.

A11 of those would be examples of

corroboratory evidence, as well as the media we were

talking about before.

O. You testified earlier that you have observed

some concerns that indicated coaching to you. Did r get

that right?

A. Yes.

O. What types of concerns did you observe?

A. The most striking would be those parroting

behaviors, where regardless of the question that was

asked of the child, the same statement or set of

statements gets said over and over and over again, Ers

well as those situations where there rea11y truly is

just no context provided at al1 for what has happened;

or where an abuse situation took p1ace, no additional

information other than that initial statement of

whatever it was, daddy touched my pee-pee, or whatever

that initial statement was.

And then obviously when children wiIl te11

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flre, and sometimes very forthcomingly, children will say

that they have been told to tel1 whatever it was that

they walked into the room saying.

And you wi11, ofl occasion, get a child who

wi1l, ds you are trying to ask other questions, will

overspeak those questions and introduce information to

you in such a way that can be concerning as wel1.

a. In the course of your interview, do you talk to

the child about rules?

A. Yes.

O. And is one of those rules to that they tel1

the truth?

A. Yes.

We don't typically word it in that way. We

basically will give the child a very literal or very

concrete explanation of that, te11 children that we are

only going to talk about the things that have rea11y

happened, and we ask children to agree that they will do

that with us in that interview context. But yes, in

effect we are asking them to tel1 the truth.

O. And in talking about and part of that, are

you trained to get the child to agree to talk about

things that are rea11y happening or that rea11y

happened?

A. Yes.

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dt

a. And does research te1l us what impact that has

on children?

A. Yes. If we get a child to ag:ree that they will

te1l the truth or that they will talk about only things

that have rea11y happened, research has shown us that

children are indeed more 1ike1y to actually do just

t.hat, to be truthful with us or to talk about those

t,hings only that have happened.

MR. LONG: Thank you.

That's all f have, Judge.

THE COURT: A11 right. Mr. Long, may this

witness be excused?

MR. LONG: Your Honor, Ms. Moncher 1s

subject to reca11. And in fact, I anticipate recalling

her later this afternoon.

THE COURT: Come up and visit with ffie,

please.

(Bench conference outside the presence of

the jury and the court reporter.)

THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead and step down,

please. Apparently you're going to be recalled 1ater.

If you have been watching the c1ock, it,s

time f or 1unch. It's almost 1-2:30 . f t' s a 1itt1e later

than we would normally take lunch, but as f told you in

voir dire, sometimes there's a witness on the stand we

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want to get done before we take a break.

We're going to take a break now. Because

it is almost 12230, we will I would like you back in

that jury assembly room in an hour and L5, so that would

be, what, !:45. Gives you plenty of time for lunch.

I would like the attorneys here at 1:30,

please.

Remember the admonition. Enjoy your lunch,

and you can fo1low Todd out.

(Recessed from !2:29 p.m. unti t t:29 p.m.

The proceedings resumed outside the presence of the jury

and Mr. Patrick Cote, defense investigator.)

THE COURT: Let' s have the record show that

the attorneys are present, the Defendant, Mr. Almanza,

is present, the jury is not yet back.

And as I try to do each time we have a

recess, I try to talk to the attorneys before the jury

comes back in the event that there's anything we need to

cover.

So from the State's point of view, is there

anything that you think we need to discuss, Mr. Long?

MR. LONG: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: How about you, Mr. Green?

MR. GREEN: I can't think of a thing, Your

Honor.

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THE COURT: Not a thing?

MR. GREEN: Not a thing.

THE COURT: We1l, we're half a day into the

trial and you can't think of anything, and Mr. Long's

got nothing to cover. That's just absolutely wonderful.

Did I understand, Mr. Long, your next

witness is going to be the victim?

MR. LONG: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. I just wanted to check

something. She is now 6?

MR. LONG: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Did f also understand that you

had some you have formulated some plan about having

t.he prior witness, Ms. Moncher, listen to it?

MR. LONG: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Wel1, I can say for the record

that neither party has invoked the rule y€t, so like

anybody e1se, she's certainly welcome to stay in the

courtroom.

MR . LONG : Oh, I ' rTr sorry . My I was not

intending to have her listen to the testimony, I was

just going to intended to have her listen to the

forensic interview, the recording, watch the forensic

interview recording.

THE COURT: Okay. And what was it you

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-3 Filed 05/16/19 Page 90 of 202
planned on doing with her afterwards?

MR. LONG: We11, I,d like the at this

point r don't have a p1an. r anticipate calling her as

a witness later today.

THE COURT: We11, you indicated that, yeah,

you were going to reca11 her and, I take it, after

looking at the videotaped interview, correct?

MR. LONG: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: I guess, what,s the subject of

recalling her?

MR. LONG: We11, at this point f don,t

intend to do that. r was just advising the court and

counsel that r was having her do that in anticipation of

testifying, and possibly testifying depending on issues

that are raised with the next two witnesses.

THE COURT: Okay. Such as?

MR. LONG: To be very c1ear, and I don't

mean to be cryptic, Judge , if defense counsel intends to

claim coaching

THE COURT: Right.

MR. LONG : - - then f intend to recal_ 1

Ms. Moncher to discuss that.

THE COURT: To say in her opinion, having

watched the recording, that it does not appear that

coaching occurred, correct?

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Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-3 Filed 05/16/19 Page 91 of 202
MR. LONG: Effectively, ,Judge.

THE COURT: In effect. a rebuttal witness if

there is an allegation that the interview was conducted

inappropriate 1y?

MR. LONG: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Okay. That's a 1itt1e

different than what I -- my reaction to it was, and that

would which you know, of course, is prohibited, is

for her to get up here and in effect sdy, g€€, I watched

it, and in my opinion she wasn't coached and she told

the truth.

MR. LONG: Certainly can,t do that.

THE COURT: What f was looking for, I have

a vague memory there's a competency statute that

effectively says all witnesses are presumed to be

competent, but then it has some discussion about

children under 8 years of dge, and that,s what I was

looking for.

And here's the problem. f 've been doing

this so 1ong, that may have been eliminated.

MR. LONG: It might have. ,Judge, I,m not

familiar with that. I know your Honor presided, I

believe, over the Toki trial two years ago.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

MR. LONG: And one of the victims i_n there

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was, I believe, 6 years o1d.

THE COURT: I think I'm not disagreeing

with you, I just want to eliminate the thought, and I

kind of I thought there was some provision where the

Court qualifies the underage witness, at 1east, you

know, do you know the difference between telling the

truth and lying, if f te11 you that this book is red is

that the truth or a 1ie, you know. That kind of thing.

But it's not an issue that either one of

you have raised yet, it's just something I want to be

prepared for.

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

part not to request the

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

We11, and Your Honor

I'm listening.

it was an oversight on my

rule be invoked, so

Request what?

The rule be invoked.

Rule of exclusion?

Yes. So at this point I would

invoke the ru1e.

MR. LONG: And at this point, to my

knowledge, there has been no witnesses present other

than those who are 1ega11y allowed to, so the ru1e,

although not technically invoked, has certainly in

practice been invoked.

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THE COURT: Wel1, 1et's

MR. LONG: Or at least exercised.

THE COURT: For the record, we'11 show that

the rule has now been invoked, and both of you are

directed to properly notify your witnesses of that.

And I'm assuming from the traf,fic f can see

coming in and out in the back that we had victim and

victim representative back in the victim room, so they

have been here and are certainly qualified to be

present. Wasn't anybody other than that, Tight?

MR. LONG: Correct.

THE COURT: Okay. If you guys don,t have

any issues, I'11 1eave, we,11 send Todd to get the jury,

and we'11 see what happens. How,s that?

MR. LONG: Sure.

(Recessed f rom 1-:43 p.m. until 1 :53 p.m.

The proceedings resumed outside the presence of the

jury.)

THE COURT: Show the jury is not yet back

in, the attorneys are in the courtroom, and Mr. Almanza

is present. The jurors are waiting to be called in.

I just wanted to clarify some things. As I

thought, there was a statute that dealt with witnesses

who are children under a certain age. It,s under 10,

but it's in civil cases. And it's up to the person

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opposing the testimony to convince the court the child

is not competent to testify. Otherwise, under Arizona

Rules of Evidence 601 and L3-4061, all persons are

presumed competent to testify.

Okay, bring them in.

(The proceedings resumed with the presence

of the jury.)

THE COURT: Let's have the record show the

presence of the jury now back in the courtroom after the

lunch recess, both attorneys, and the Defendant,

Mr. Almanza.

Is the State ready to proceed, sir?

MR. LONG: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT

proceed, sir?

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

MR. LONG:

victim, Ada Wi1he1mi.

THE COURT

person sitting with her

support person sit with

MR. LONG:

THE COURT

(Mr. Long

Is the Defendant ready to

Yes, Your Honor.

Okay. Mr. Long?

Your Honor, the State ca11s the

A11 right, sir. Do we have a

? You're very welcome to have a

her if you would 1ike.

f'11 ask Ada.

Okay.

conferred with Ms. Wilhelmi off

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-3 Filed 05/16/19 Page 95 of 202
95

the record. )

MR. LONG: With the Court's permission,

Your Honor, Ada has requested that the victim advocate

sit up there with her.

THE COURT: Okay. We have a chair up

there. It' s a Iitt.le awkward around the TV.

Young lady, why don't you come right up

over here. We're not going to make you stop there. You

can come right over to the chair, please.

MR. LONG: Watch the cords, okay?

THE COURT: I need to talk to you first

before you sit down. I need to talk to you a little

bir.

Can you see the lady over here?

MS. WILHELMf: Yeah.

THE COURT: She's going to ask you to put

your right hand up, and we're going to swear you ln.

Okay ?

MS. WfLHELMI: Okay.

(The witness, Ada Wi1he1mi, was duly sworn

by the clerk of the court, according to 1aw.)

THE COURT: You understand what that means?

Do you know what the truth is? Do you know what telling

the truth is?

MS. WILHELMI: Yeah.

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THE COURT: You know what a 1ie is?

MS. WfLHELMI: Yeah.

THE COURT: And you know that one of your

promises is you won't te11 any lies here. Are you

willing to do that?

MS. WILHELM]: No 1ies.

THE COURT: No 1ies. You're going to te11

the truth?

MS. WILHELMI: (No verbal response. )

THE COURT: You sure?

MS. WfLHELMI: (Wo verbal response. )

THE COURT: Okay, that's what she's asking

you. Do you agree with that?

MS. WILHELMI: Yeah.

THE COURT: Okay, thank you.

One of our 1itt1e rules here one of our

rules here is you have to talk into that microphone so

everybody can hear you.

MS. WILHELMI: Okay.

THE COURT: But if you need to stop, tell

us you need to stop, you need to take a break. Okay?

MS. WILHELMI: Okay.

THE COURT: He's going to ask you questions

first, and then the other man is going to ask you some

questions.

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MS. WILHELMT: Okay.

THE COURT: Go ahead, sir.

ADA WIIJHELMI,

ca11ed as a witness herein, having been first duly

sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. LONG:

O. Ada, would you say your name into the

microphone, please?

A. My name is Ada.

O. Do you have a last name?

A. Wi the 1mi .

O. Do you have a middle name?

A. Simone.

O. How o1d are you?

A. 6.

O. 6 years o1d. That makes you in kindergarten?

Did I get that right?

A. No. f'm in 1st grade.

O. Could you tel1 me about your teacher in 1st

grade ?

A. No.

O. Okay. Does she have a name?

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A. Yeah. It ,s Ms. Sherri.

O. Do you like school?

A. Yeah.

O. What do you like about it?

A. We science.

O. Science. What do you like about science?

A. We get to make stuff.

O. What types of stuff?

A. Goo. I don,t know anything e1se.

O. Okay. you just said you got to make goo. Did

I get that right?

A. Yes.

a. Is that a yes?

A. Yes.

a. Can you te11 me about goo?

A. It's sticky and slimy and i_t,,s usually some

goo is red, b1ue, green, and purple.

a. And was there a certain type of goo that you

made ?

A. I didn't make one, but Ms. Sherri, I got to

help her, yeah.

o. okay. And the one that you helped, did it have

a certain color?

A. We made, 1ike, red, b1ue, glreen, and purple.

And also white.

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O. You made all of t,hem?

A. Yeah.

O. Thank you for correcting me on that.

Ada, do you have can you te11 us who is

in your family?

A. My mom/ my dad, my grandpa, ffiy grandma, ily

aunties, my unc1e, my f don't know anything e1se.

O. Okay. That's a pretty big family. Do you have

brothers or sisters?

A. Oh, yeah. f got two brothers.

0. Okay. What are their names?

A. Arlo and Jack.

O. And is are you the oldest, the youngest, or

something else?

A. The youngest.

0. You're the youngest in your family?

A. Wel1, not the youngest, but Arlo's the

youngest, but I'm the middle youngest, sort of.

O. Okay. So who is the oldest?

A. .Tack.

O. How o1d is ,Jack?

A. 10.

a. Do you like to play with ,fack?

A. No.

O. How come?

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A. He fights.

O. Brothers and sisters do that sometimes, f

gfues s .

A. We do all the time.

O. Ada, the Judge talked to you about some things

before we started talking, about saying things that

rea11y happened. Do you remember that?

A. Yeah.

O. And do you promise to say things that rea11y

happened?

A. YeS.

O. Have you ever talked to me before?

A. YeS.

O. And when we've talked, do I have a rule?

A. Yes.

O. And what is that rule?

A. The number one ru1e, and it's telling the

truth.

O. And will you do that today?

A. Yes.

0. Ada, did you ever live on a ranch?

A. Yes.

O. Can you tel1 me about that ranch?

A. It had some pigs, horses, cows, some bul1s.

What else? It that's it.

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a. Okay. What types of things did you like to do

on that ranch?

A. f 1i-ke playing on our play set. It's rea11y

fun.

a. Okay. And you said there was a play set. Can

you explain what that is?

A. Oh, it's like a litt1e playground, but it has,

1ike, some swings and slides. you know, like things

like you'd use fun with.

O. And who would you play on that with?

A. I would play it with my little brother, Ar1o.

a. What about ,Jack?

A. NO.

O. No?

A. No. Me and Arlo get aIong.

a. How o1d is Arlo?

A. He's 3.

O. Is he in school yet?

A. He's in preschool.

O. Okay. You talked a 1itt1e bit about your mom

and your dad. Does your mom and dad live together or in

different houses?

A. Different houses.

A. All right. And do you 1j-ve with your mom on1y,

your dad on1y, oy both of them?

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A. Both.

a. And when do you live with your mom?

A. I don't rea11y know.

a. Okay. During the school, when school's

during the school days, where are you living?

A. Usually on Thursdays I go with my dad. On the

rest of the days I go with my mom.

a. Okay. When school's not in, are you living

with your mom, your dad, or sometimes both?

A. Sometimes both.

O. Okay. On the ranch, you said there were

animals on the ranch. Were there any animals that you

liked particularly?

A. The animal t.hat I liked is the horses.

O. The horses?

A. Because we got to ride on them.

O. Do they have names?

A. One was Sterling, Cody, and Beauty.

O. You told me about some that there were some

pigs on the ranch. Did I get that right?

A. Yeah.

O. Can you te1l me about the pigs?

A. We always got to feed them. We got ,fack

got we always got to hold Tinker Be11's baby pigs and

we always got to have fun with them.

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0. Okay. You just said you said a name. You

said "Tinker Be11." What's Tinker Be11?

A. She's a pig. That's the mama of the pigs. She

had them.

O. And did the other pigs have names?

A. f can't remember.

O. What color was Tinker Be11?

A. She was mostly black and in the middle she was

pink.

O. How o1d were you when you lived on the ranch?

A. Probably about 4.

O. Is that a guess? Do you think you know, or are

you guessing?

A. Ithinklknow.

O. Okay. Do you live on the ranch now?

A. What?

0. Do you live on the ranch now?

A. No. We moved.

O. Okay. But when you were on the ranch, when you

lived on the ranch, did you have a bedroom at the ranch?

A. Yes.

O. And that's where you slept and lived?

A. Yeah.

O. Where did your mom work when you lived on the

ranch?

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A. She 1ived, like, dt her work. Like, she was a

butcher, and she lived, 1ike, kind of close to our

house, but right, 1ike, north of us.

O. Okay. Was the p1ace, the building that she

worked orl, the same property as your house?

A. Yeah.

O. And these pigs that you talked about, were they

also on the ranch?

A. Yeah.

O. Did you know other people who worked on the

ranch?

A. Yeah. It's Fernando, Paul, and Jaime. And my

mom. That's it.

O. Okay. You just said a name, "Fernando." Do

you see anyone that works in the ranch today in the

courtroom?

A. Not rea11y.

O. Okay. Did some of these workers, like

Fernando, did you like him? Was he nice to you?

A. I can't remember.

O. Okay. Was there ever a day that you remember

where something happened with Fernando?

A. Yes.

A. Will you te11 us about that?

A. He done a 1ot of inappropriate things to me.

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a. Okay. When you say "inappropriate thi-ngs, "

what does that mean?

A. Sticking his finger in my crotch.

O. Did you say "crotch"?

A. (Ilo verbal response. )

O. Now, you were pausing there for a minute. Were

you thinking, trying to remember? fs it hard to say?

A. ft's just hard to say.

O. fs it embarrassing?

A. YeS.

O. Are you a 1itt1e nervous today?

A. YeS.

O. Okay. f 'm going to ask you a few more

questions about what you just talked about, okay?

A. Okay.

O. And what f'd like you to do is talk about

everything you can remember from when you first were

with Fernando until the very end. rs that something

you'd like to do?

A. NO.

a. Okay. Even though it's not something you want

to do, will you do that for me?

A. Yes.

O. First 1et me ask you, before you do that, Ada,

the thing that you just said about him putting his

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f inger in your crotch, is t.hat something that rea11y

happened?

A. It rea11y happened.

O. Or is that something that somebody told you

happened?

A. No, I -- he just done it.

O. When you use that word, ,,crotch,', what is a

crotch used for?

A. Using the bathroom.

a. Okay. Is that p€€, poo, or something else?

A. Pee.

a. fs it embarrassing to talk about those things?

A. Yes.

O. Okay. ft's embarrassing for me sometimes to

talk about them too, but f'm going to ask a few more

kind of embarrassing questions, okay?

A. Okay.

0. So te1l me everything you can, from the very

beginning to the very end, about what you remember when

Fernando was inappropriate, okay?

A. We were at the near the pigs. He me and

him were feeding the pigs, and we were just r was on

his lap, and and we were just watching the pigs do

some stuff. And then r was wearing a dress, and he just

pu11ed it up.

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A. Okay. What happened next?

A. He sticks his finger in my crotch.

O. Okay. You said your dress was up. Were you

wearing underwear?

A. Yes.

O. Tel1 me what happened to your underwear.

A. We1l, he just pu11ed it down.

a. Okay. Did you feel anything?

A. Yes.

O. Te11 us about that.

A. ft's his finger.

O. Did it hurt, tickle, ot something else?

A. Hurt.

a. And you said you were near the pigs. Did I get

that right?

A. Yes.

0. Do you know which pigs you were near?

A. A11 of them.

a. Okay.

A. Because we were outside the fence.

O. And the pigs are inside the fence?

A. Yes.

a. fs that right?

A. Yes.

O. So you weren't in the fence with the pigs?

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A. No.

O. You said you were outside of the fence?

A. Yeah.

O. Wheie was your mom when this was happening?

A. She was butcherJ-ng the animals.

O. Where was your brother, .Tack, when this was

happening?

A. I think he was helping mom ground.

a. Okay. you said you think. Is that a guess or

do you know?

A. ,Just a guess.

O. Okay. What about Arlo? Do you know where he

was when thj-s was happening?

A. I don't know.

a. Did Fernando say anything when he was doing

this?

A. No.

O. What made him stop?

A. r don't know- f just thought that he would get

in trouble, but he just told me that he he just told

me don't te11 anyone. But f had to te1l my mom.

O. Okay. So he told you not to te1l anyone?

A. Yes.

O. Did you ever tel1 anyone?

A. Only my mom. Wel1, my brother was in there,

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so. He would never te11 anyone.

O. So your brother heard what you said, too?

A. Yes.

0. After you told your mom, what happened very

next ?

A. She just called the police.

O. Okay. Did you do you know, did you ever see

a doctor?

A. I can't remember.

0. Okay. Do you know, after after this

happened, after Fernando touched you in the crotch, did

you ever notice anything in your underwear?

A. Only his finger.

a. Okay. Would it be okay if I show you some

photos ?

A. Yes.

O. Would you be willing to look at some photos and

explain them to us?

A. YeS.

O. Great.

THE COURT: Mr. Long, hold on just a

second.

(The proceedings resumed with the presence

of Laura Anderson, court interpreter.)

THE COURT: Mr. Long, whenever you're

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ready.

MR. LONG: Thank you, Your Honor.

BY MR. LONG:

O. I'm going to start with what,s Exhj-bit 2. And

Ada, there's a number of TVs here. can you see the TVs?

There's one right behind you.

A. Yeah.

O. And if it's easier, there,s also one right in

front of you, Ada, over here. Can you see that one?

A. Yes.

O. What I'm going to ask you to do, if you can, is

watch that rv right there and talk about some of the

pJ-ctures that are going to come uF, okay?

A. Okay.

0. I'm showing Exhibit No. 2. And this may be

this may be an easy picture. Or maybe not. Do you

recognize the person in that picture?

A. Me.

THE COURT: Just a thought, Mr. Long. If

you move this wdy, she can see the screen a 1itt1e

better.

THE WfTNESS: Me.

BY MR. LONG:

a. Do you know what grade you were when that

picture was taken?

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A. Kindergarten.

O. How o1d are you in kindergarten?

A. 5.

O. Okay. Showing you Exhibit No. 3. Do you

recognize what's in that picture?

A. Yes.

O. Te1l me about that.

A. ft's my house, mom's butchering work, the

fieId.

O. Would you

A. The

0. Would you feel comfortable standing up next to

the TV behind you and pointing out some of the areas

that you're talking about?

A. Yes. Yes.

O. OkaY.

THE COURT: Now, when you do that, you're

going to have to speak as loud as you can so everybody

can hear you, okay?

THE WITNESS: Okay.

BY MR. LONG:

O. That's a big TV, I know, and you're it,s

hard to get to.

Show you said your house. Will you

point to your house?

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A. Yes. My house is right there.

a. OkaY.

THE COURT: And I want to te11 you, that's

very good. Keep talking like that, okay?

THE WITNESS: Okay.

THE COURT: Go ahead, sir.

BY MR. LONG:

O. And you said your where your mom works, the

butchering p1ace, where is that?

A. It's right there.

0. Okay. And I'm going to show you can you

te1I from this picture where the swing set you liked to

play on would be?

A. It would be right there.

O. Okay. Now I'm going to show you

Exhibit No. that's Exhibit No. i .

Let me go to Exhibit No. 8. Does that

picture show the swing set?

A. No.

O. Was there a time when the swing set wasn't in

your yard?

A. Yes. A11 I know is that time.

O. A11 you know is that time what? And f may have

confused you. Di-d you say that there was a time when

the swing set wasn't in your backyard?

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A. Yes.

O. Okay. Now 1et me show you Exhibit No. 15. Do

you see what that is?

A. Yes.

O. What is that?

A. It' s my mom' s work.

O. Okay. Now f 'm going to show you Exhibit

No. 52. Do you recognize that?

A. Yeah.

O. What is that?

A. Right here is where our pigs were.

O. Okay.

A. And here's our fence and here' s the trees, and

that's it.

O. Okay. f'm going to show you Exhibit No. 59.

A. Yeah, there's our pigs.

O. Okay. And is that Tinker Be1l or something

else?

A. No, I think Tinker Be11,s laying down.

O. Okay. I'm going to show you Exhibit No.

A. And there's our dog, our o1d dog named

Winnie.

a. fn that picture right there?

A. Yeah. That' s our dog.

O. Exhibir No. 58, all right.

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I'm going to show you Exhibit No. 59.

A. Yeah, those are sti1l the baby pigs. I can't

rea11y see Tinker Be11.

0. Okay. Let me see if f have a picture with

Tinker Be1l. Going to show you Exhibit No. 63.

A. Oh, now I see her. She's right there.

O. Okay. And you said that's the mama pig?

A. Yeah.

a. Okay. In any of the pictures that we saw, did

you see the place where you were when Fernando touched

you ?

A. Yes. It was right there.

O. Okay. Can you point again where that is?

A. Yes. ft' s right there.

O. Ada, you can go ahead and have a seat. Don't

trip.

Would it be okay if I showed you a couple

things ?

A. Yes.

O. Ada, thj_s is what we call Exhibit L26A, and not

the b.g, but this thing.

Do you recognize this?

A. No.

O. Okay. Does this look familiar to you at all?

A. Yes.

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115

O. We1l, how does it look familiar?

A. It looks familiar because I worn it before,

because f just remembered it.

O. Okay. You say you wore it. What is this?

A. My dress.

a. Okay.

A. That's the kind of dress where Fernando touched

me.

a. This right here?

A. Yes -

a. You said it's the kind of dress. rs it similar

to this or was this the dress?

A. It's the dress.

MR. LONG: Your Honor, I move for the

introduction of Exhibit t26ATHE COURT Is the dress labeled as A or

the bag?

MR. LONG:

A and the dress is in t

THE COURT

A, correct?

MR. LONG:

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

The bag is actually dress is

he bag.

Okay. So you want to move for

Correct.

Mr. Green?

No objection, your Honor.

A11 right , s j-r . Let me have

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t,he she ' 11 give i t to you . Exhibi t L26A wi 11 be

marked as admitted and admitted.

(Marked for identification State's Exhibit

No. 1,26A.)

BY MR. LONG:

O. Ada, was there ever a time when you talked to a

lady about what Fernando did to you?

A. YeS.

O. Do you remember talking to her?

A. Yes.

O. Did you te1l that woman the truth?

A. Yes.

0. Were there some things that you talked about

then that you can't remember today?

A. No.

O. Okay. So the things that happened., the things

that you talked about today, are they in your mind right

now?

A. Yes.

O. Are they things you,d like to forget?

A. Yes.

MR. LONG: Thank you, Ada. Those are all

my questions.

THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Long.

Mr. Green?

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LL7

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. GREEN:

0. Ada, my name is Mr. Green, and I just have a

few questions for you, okay?

What f want to understand is a 1itt1e bit

more about what you remember about the things that

happened on the day that you're talking about. Okay?

A. Okay.

O. And I'm sorry that I'm making you talk about

it, but it's rea11y important. We're in a court, and

things are rea11y important in court. Okay?

A. Okay.

a. So it's real1y important to talk about that.

Mr. Green?

MR. LONG: What are you asking for,

MR. GREEN: Exhibit No. 3, please.

BY MR. GREEN:

O. Ada, we were just talking about this picture,

or Mr. Long was just talking about this picture with

YOU, COrreCt?

A. YeS.

a. And you pointed at where your house was and

where the packing house were?

A. Yes.

O. And did you point at where the pigs were

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Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-3 Filed 05/16/19 Page 118 of 202
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located on that picture?

A. f can't rea11y see them.

a. Okay. Do you know where in general, even

though you can't see them, where they were? Would you

be able to find them on there?

A. I think so.

O. I know it's rea11y high.

A. We11, this was the way to get in. That's how

to get in. f can't find them anywhere e1se.

MR. GREEN: Does it raise or lower at all?

No?

DETECTIVE SNYDER: Here's a pencil that

maybe she could use as a pointer.

MR. GREEN: Do we have a laser pointer?

THE WITNESS: Oh, here's the way to get in.

BY MR. GREEN:

O. That's how you get in?

A. Yeah.

O. So where was the you said that one of the

things that you did was feed the pigs, yLght?

A. YeS.

a. Was that just you that fed the pigs, ot did

,Jack help you or did other people help you?

A. My brother, which was,Jack, and mom.

O . Mom, .lack , and you

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A. Yeah.

O. all fed the pigs?

A. Yes.

O. Together?

A. YeS.

0. Did you always feed the pigs together?

A. Yes.

O. A11 three of you?

A. Yes -

a. Okay. Was there ever a time that you didn't

feed the pigs, where maybe just you and Jack fed the

pigs ?

A. No.

O. Okay. So your mom was always with you?

A. Yes.

a. Okay. So if your mom was always with you when

you went to feed the pigs, then how did you end up with

Fernando by the pigs? Was he already there?

A. He walked me with him.

O. Wi th him?

A. Yeah.

O. Where did he walk with you from?

A. He walked with me from probably right here.

A. Okay. Do you remember when you first met up

with Fernando?

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A. No.

O. Do you remember if Fernando was eating lunch?

A. No.

O. You don't? Okay.

Was he in the front of the packing house or

in the back of the packing house?

A. In the back.

O. In the back?

A. Yes -

O. Okay. And that's where you met up with him?

A. Yes -

O. Okay. And what caused you to meet up with him,

do you remember?

A. f'd been walking down from the house all the

way to the right there.

O. Okay. Were you going to see your mom?

A. No, just Fernando.

O. Oh, you went to just see Fernando?

A. Yeah.

O. And why were you looking for Fernando, do you

remember?

A. No, f don't remember.

O. Okay. But you know you were just going to see

him?

A. Yes. I remember.

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O. Okay. And was ,Jack with you?

A. No. He was in the in there.

O. He was in the packing house?

A. YeS.

O. With your mom?

A. Yes.

O. So you said you walked with Fernando. Do you

remember how you walked to get to the pigs?

A. We walked from there to there, and then we'd go

right over there.

A. So you said you were behind the packing house,

right, on the back side?

A. YeS.

O. Did you walk all the way around the packing

house to get to the entrance, or did you walk some other

way?

A. We just went walking all the way here and then

went to the pigs, to go feed them.

O. Okay. You can have a seat.

Ada, Mr. Long asked you if you 1i_ked living

on the ranch. Did you like living on the ranch?

A. Yes.

O. Was it a fun place?

A. Yes.

O. When your mom was working, what did you and

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your brothers do?

A. we would watch scary movies that were black and

whi te .

O. Black-and-white scary movies?

A. Yeah. We have 50.

O. Don't you get scared at

A. NO.

0. scary movies? No? Okay.

And did you ever go outside and play?

A. No. Because our mom, she wou1d.n,t 1et us

because she was afraid that we would get stolen.

O. Get stolen?

A. Yeah.

O. Okay. But on the property there, you didn,t

play out in the yard or anything?

A. No, until she came back.

O. From the packing house?

A. Yes.

O. Okay. And so she would come home and then you

would go out and play?

A. Yes.

O. Did you ever play outside in the fenced area

when your mom wasn,t around?

A. Yes. It was with my friend, Catherine. We

were playing with a tea party.

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O. Okay. A11 right. So occasionally you would

go you and ,Jack and your mom always were together

when you fed the pigs, right?

A. Yes.

O. And when you and Fernando went to the pigs,

were you just going to look at them, or were you going

to give them water or food, oy what were you going to

the pigs for?

A. We were going to the pigs to feed, give them

food.

O. To give them food?

A. YeS.

O. And Fernando was going to help you give them

food?

A. He was the only one that done it, because I __

because I just didn't want to do it

O. Okay.

A. right there.

O. Do you remember where the food was kept? Was

it kept right by the pigs?

A. We11, no.

A. Where was

A. We would get it.

O. Where would you get the food from?

A. Usually right next to the horses, usua11y,

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because f don't know , dctua11y.

A. Can we have the picture back, Exhibit No. 3,

please.

So the food, can you show me where the food

was stored

A. YeS.

O. in that picture?

A. I think we were actually

O. Take your time, j_t's okay. Do you remember?

You don't remember?

A. No, f don't remember.

O. Okay. That ' s an okay answer. Anyt j_me you

don't remember, you can tel1 me that. Okay?

A. Okay.

a. A11 right. And did you how did you get rhe

food to the pigs from where it was stored?

A. We would go from this wdy, all the way from

there, all the way over there.

O. Okay, gTood. you reached that pretty good. I

think you got ta11er in the last few minutes.

Did you carry the food? Was it in bags?

How was the food how did you carry the food?

A. ft was in bags.

O. It was in bags?

A. Yes.

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O. Could you pick up a bag?

A. Yes.

O. You could pick up a bag?

A. Yes.

O. How big were the bags?

A. Pretty big.

O. Could you carry the bag all the way from where

you got the food all the way to the pigs?

A. Yep .

a. Wow. you're a strong 1itt1e gir1.

Go ahead and have a seat. Thank you.

Before you came to court today, Ada, did

you talk to anybody about what was going to happen

today?

A. Only my mom.

O. Your mom?

A. Because she was only going to keep that secret.

a. She was only going to do what?

A. Keep that secret.

O. She was going to keep what secret?

A. The secret that r had told her, that she would

never tel1 anybody e1se.

O. About what happened to you?

A. Yes.

O. Okay.

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A. I would have to te11 it to this building on1y.

a. Okay. And so you and your mom talked about it,

but did you ever te11 anybody else about it other than

your mom?

A. f can't remember.

O. Okay. And did you and your mom tal-k about what

was going to happen in court today?

A. No.

O. No? Okay. She didn,t te11 you what were

you nervous coming to court today?

A. Yes.

a. Did you te11 your mom you were nervous coming

to court today?

A. Yes.

a. And did she say anything to you to help you not

be nervous?

A. She did a prayer.

a. She did a prayer?

A. Yeah.

O. Okay. We11, that was good.

Did you talk to anybody else about what was

going to happen in court today?

A. No.

O. Okay. How about the lady sitting next to you?

Did you talk to her about what was happening in court

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today?

A. f don't know.

a. Okay. A11 right. Ada, I'm sorry we had to ask

you all these questions. You,ve been a rea11y good

witness, though. You've done a good job. Okay?

A. Okay.

MR. GREEN: A11 right. Thank you very

much.

THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Green.

Mr. Long?

MR. LONG: Yes, sir.

REDIRECT EXAMf NATTON

BY MR. LONG:

O. Ada, f'm going to go back to this picture,

which is Exhibit No. 3, and I'm going to see if f can't

make this a 1itt1e bigger for you. Let's see if you

can't reach that a 1ittle better.

Explain to us which way you'd go to get to

the pigs.

A. We would go from our mom,s working place to

here, and then we would go to here.

a. Okay. And is there a gate or a fence or

something else there?

A. A gate.

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O. Okay. I'm going to ask you to stay up there

for just a 1itt1e bit. f'm going to show you

Exhibit No. 30.

Do you recognize that?

A. Yes.

O. And what is that?

A. Right here is where mom would put all the

heads.

O. Okay. What about to the left of the heads?

A. This we would get in from that.

O. You would get into where from that?

A. To the pigs.

A. f'm showing you Exhibit No. 31. Te11 me what

that is.

A. This is one of the p1ace. This is just how to

get in. Then we'd just go through that and then go

through there, and then we go through another gate. And

then we would just start walking and then we,1r get to

the pigs.

O. Okay. I'm going to show you Exhibit No. 33.

A. You just go through there, and here's the gate

to open it.

O. Can you show us where the gate is again?

A. Yes. It's right there.

O. Okay. Were the

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L29

A. And then when we

O. Hold on a second. Exhibit No. 35. Can you see

Ehe gate better in there?

A. Yeah, right there.

O. And Exhibit No. 36. Can you te11 us what that

is?

A. Okay. Here's the way to get in, and then

there's right there is the through that hole right

there, when you go over there, you're almost there.

O. Okay. And then I'm going to show you

Exhibit No. 52.

A. There it is right there.

O. Okay. Now, if you,d stay up there for a

minute, we're back to this big picture. And I'm going

to show you this littIe area is going to pop out.

Do you see the fence that's by the

A. Pig?

O. pigpen, yeah.

A. It's right this one.

O. Okay. Would you would you crawl over, under

that fence to get there?

A. Well

O. To get to the pigpens?

A. To get to the pigs we would just go that way.

O. Okay. Ada, you can go ahead and have a seat.

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Ada, we talked about the number one ruIe.

What's that?

A. It's the truth.

O. Okay. And I want to be te1l the truth to

you as we11. One of the things that's being said and

being claimed is that your mom told you what happened,

that this happened and that this didn't come from

yourself . What do you think about that?

A. f don't know.

O. Okay. Did your mom te11 you what to say?

A. No.

a. When you talked what about Fernando did, is

that something that you experienced?

A. No.

0. Okay. Might have been a bad question. When

you told us what happened with Fernando, was that

something that rea11y happened?

A. It rea11y happened.

a. Okay. And did that happen to your body?

A. Yes.

O. And did you te1l the truth today?

A. Yes.

O. You were asked questions, about if mom always

feeds pigs, to you, and you said yes; is that right?

A. Yes.

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O. On the day when Fernando touched you, was mom

there ?

A. No.

O. Who was there?

A. Only me and Fernando. That,s it.

MR. LONG: Thank you, Ada. Those are all

my questions.

THE COURT: Okay. Can I see both the

atLorneys up here, please.

(Bench conference outside the presence of

the jury and the court reporter.)

THE COURT: Ada, the attorneys and f were

talking because sometimes r have to ask some questions;

sometimes the jury wants to know things and they ask me

to ask some questions. Okay?

THE WITNESS: Okay.

,JURY aUESTIONS

THE COURT: Do you remember talking about

feeding the pigs?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: Do you remember how big the bag

of food was for the pigs, how big that pig feed bag is?

THE WITNESS: No.

THE COURT: Is it bigger than you, smaller

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than you? Is it a little bag or a big bag, do you

remember at all?

THE WITNESS

THE COURT:

it up and carry it?

THE WITNESS

THE COURT:

feed with one of those ba

THE WITNESS

the same pen.

THE COURT:

THE WITNESS

just pour down the food i

would just start eating.

THE COURT:

gave them, tight?

THE WITNESS

THE COURT:

one bag at a time or part

did you do that?

THE WITNESS

THE COURT:

Now, Mr. Lon

questions?

It was a big bag.

Were you able to actually lift

Yes.

Okay. How many pigs could you

gs of food?

We11, all the pigs were in

Uh-huh.

And so they if we would

nto the ho1e, and then the pigs

They had to eat whatever you

Yes.

Okay. And did you feed them

of a bag or several bags? How

One bag at a time.

Okay, good. Okay.

g, do you have any fo11ow-up

MR. LONG: Not as to those questions, but

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could we approach, please?

THE COURT: Sure.

(Bench conference outside the presence of

the jury and the court reporter.)

FURTHER EXAMINATION

BY MR. LONG:

a. Ada, f just need to ask you one more question,

okay ?

A. Okay.

a. And it's an embarrassing one, so f just want to

te11 you that up front.

You talked about Fernando's finger in your

crotch. Was that inside your crotch, outside your

crotch, or something else?

A. It was inside.

MR. LONG: Those are all my quest j-ons 

.

THE COURT: Okay. Do you have any

additional questions, Mr. Green?

MR. GREEN: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen,

f'11 remind you, f told you in voir dire some of your

questions are not asked.

Okay, Ada, we're all done. you can step

down now, okay?

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MS. WILHELMI: Okay.

THE COURT: Thank you. Do you want to take

your water with you or do you want to throw that away?

MS. WILHELMI.: I'11 take my water with me.

THE COURT: Mr. Long, your next witness?

MR. LONG: Your Honor, State ca11s Kathryn

Quinn.

THE COURT: Oh, okay.

Right up here, up front first, please.

We're going to get you sworn in.

(The witness, Kathryn Quinn, was duly sworn

by the clerk of the court, dccording to 1aw. )

THE COURT: Come on over and have a seat.

.Tust pu11 up to the tab1e, get comfortable, but you can

move that microphone. There you go. If you move that,

it will also bend if you need to.

Mr. Long?

KATHRYN QUINN,

cal1ed as a wj-tness herein, having been first duly

sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. LONG:

a. Good afternoon.

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135

A. Hi.

O. Could you state your name, please.

A. Kathryn Quinn, but I go by Katie.

a. fs it okay if I call you ',Katie,,?

A. Yes.

O. Te11 us about your family.

A. Single mom. I have three chi ldren, ,Jack, Ada,

and Ar1o. And other than that, f,ttl close with my mom,

my sister.

That's about it.

O. How old is Jack?

A. 10.

O. And what grade is he in?

A. 5th grade.

O. What types of things does he like to do?

A. He likes to play chess, read. He likes to

explore, likes to go shooting. ,.fust typical 1-0-year-o1d

stuff.

O. Okay. Does he do well in school?

A. Very we11.

O. Okay. What about Ada? How o1d is she?

A. 6.

O. And what grade is she in?

A. 1st grade.

a. Te11 us about Ada.

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A. She's very smart, and she's she,s very

sweet, but she's also rea11y strong. And she likes to

do girly things, like painting nails and playing dol1s,

and but she's just I don't know. She's a great

1itt1e gi11. She's fun.

O. And Ar1o, how o1d is he?

A. 3.

O. What does he like to do?

A. He likes to make messes. Everywhere. He's

I call him my litt1e firecracker.

O. Sounds like you've got your hands fu11.

A. Absolutely.

O. And back in October of 201. 1,, where did you

work ?

A. f worked for the Double Check Ranch.

O. Can you explain what that is, what the Double

Check Ranch is?

A. Yes. It's a grass-fed natural beef company.

And r was the packing house manager and the butcher, the

head butcher.

O. So what types of things did you have to do for

your job when you worked there?

A. We1l, it's I was in charge of everything

from when it came into the corrals to basically until it

got to the farmers' markets or restaurants.

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So I would help round up the animals to put

them in the corrals, I would slaughter the animals, with

a group. I usually had someone working for fiIe , and then

we had ranch hands in those days. It was a big process.

Then I would also cut up the beef from

whole sides of beef and break it down into all the cuts,

cut, wrap, package, and then also load the trailers and

get it to the farmers' markets.

0. A11 right. Was there a time when you worked

there that you didn't live on the ranch?

A. That is correct, yes.

O. Okay. At some point did that change?

A. YeS.

O. Te11 me about that.

A. I was hired at the ranch in April of 201-0. f

was sti1I a student at U of A at the time.

Then in May the following year, would have

been May of 201-I , 1 moved into the house on the ranch

and brought my family. And when that happened, the

position went from just a part-time job to a very

fu11-time job.

a. So was living on the ranch one of the perks of

the j ob?

A. I paid rent living there. It didn't come free.

But it was nice not havj-ng to commute from

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Tucson, which is where I was living before.

O. I see. And where is this ranch geographically?

A. ft's in Dud1eyvi11e, which is in the very

north it's like a north 1itt1e it's almost in Gila

County, near Winkelman, Arizor,a. And it,s about, f

would sdy, 15 miles north of where my house was in

Tucson.

a. No real easy way to get there; is that

A. No.

O. righr?

A. No.

0. When you started living there, what types of

things would your kids do when they were at the ranch?

A. We had a 1ot of fun. And we would do

everything from go for we would go for walks through

the river, we would collect rocks, w€ would do a 1ot of

hiking, we would go hunt squirrels and 1itt1e varmints

and things.

And, you know, they would play in the yard.

we you know, we'd find things out in nature and cook

them and not just animals, but vegetables and fruits

and cactus and things like that, too. we were pretty

into the earth there and very excited about it.

o. Did the kids have chores or anything like that

that they had to do?

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A. Absolutely. My kids have a 1ot of chores.

They and they went to school too, but after school

they had chores, before school they had chores, and on

the weekends they had chores. we were a farming family.

A. And what types of things would they do for

chores ?

A. We11, Ada didn,t rea11y do a lot of chores, and

Arlo was on1y, like I mean, he was just a really,

rea11y young toddler, so he didn't rea11y have many

chores. But Ada would do everything from help feed

chickens, which we had chickens, you know, or cleaning

up the yard and stuff.

Jack had more involved chores, and he would

do everything from get feed ready for the pigs, he would

even help me sometimes in the cutting room working the

grinder and stuff. Ada would sometimes help me in there

as we11.

They were in charge of, you know, sweeping

outside, they would have to rake leaves, you know. Lots

of they were working kids.

O. Did you have pigs on the property?

A. Yes, I did.

O. Te11 me about them.

A. They were my personal pigs. Tinker Be11 was my

first of my pigs of my breeding-stock stock, and f

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raised my own natural pork. And I bought Tinker Be11

pregnant. And so this was my first real farming

adventure, my own thing.

But we loved them. They had babies. We

were there for them when they were born. I even

bottle-fed a couple of them. We buried them when they

died. I mean, w€ named them. And we also slaughtered

them and sold them, so, you know.

O. What would would Jack do anything with the

pigs ?

A. Absolutely. ,Jack was I used to call him my

pig whisperer, because he could take Tinker Be11, and if

he was in the pen with her f never 1et them get in

the pens without an adult there, but if he was in the

pens with her, I'd see him do this, where he could pet

her shoulders and actually make her 1ay down.

But they would feed them, help me get stuff

together to water them. Because feeding and watering

twice a day was a big, long process. It took a 1ot of

time.

O. So the kids were the kids familiar with that

proc es s ?

A. They were pretty f ami liar . f t changed da j- 1y,

though, because we didn't just have a set thing. We

were feeding them all the time.

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The feeds changed all the time. Sometimes

feeds came in barrels, sometimes they came in bags,

sometimes it was food restaurants gave us. Feeding

changed all the time. There was no set pattern to it or

set thing.

A1so, too, with the size of the animals it

changed.

0. Were there ever times when anyone else would

help the kids with the pigs?

A. Yes.

O. Te1l me about that.

A. f would so often ask Fernando to help

sometimes. Like, he would be done with it was never

while he was on his shift, though. when he was done

because he worked for pau1. so when he was done with

his shift, he would r would sometimes ask him, h"y,

could you go help me feed the pigs, ot he would offer to

help fr€, and I would say y€s, please.

And I had other people who worked for the

ranch sometimes help me as wel1. Different people

worked at different times. They often helped. me.

O. Focusing on Fernando, when he would help feed

the pigs, would the kids would the kids be allowed to

be around him to help feed the pigs?

A. Yes. f mean and there was a certain point

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in time where, yes, this was allowed.

a. Okay. Now/ were you familiar with the other

people that worked on the ranch?

A. Yes.

O. In addition to Fernando, who else worked on the

ranch?

A. At the time that he was working there, Paul was

the owner. He would be there maybe one to two days a

week. He was not there very often.

There was another man, Jaime Kahmie, and he

was there just he was there Monday through Friday at

this time, and then Fernando worked there Monday through

Sunday or Monday through Saturday. But .Taime was the

other employee. (Phonetic)

Occasionally we would have someone else pop

in maybe who was specialty in welding or specialty in

something e1se, but generally that was it was just

us.

And then I often had an apprentice that

would work for me.

0. Okay. Was there any how many Fernandos

worked on the ranch?

A. .fust one.

O. Did Ada know that person?

A. Yes.

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O. Did Ada know him by name?

A. Yes.

O. What would she call him?

A. Fernando.

O. If she was to talk about Fernando, would you

know who he would you know specifically who she was

talking about?

A. Yes.

O. Okay. Do you see Fernando in the courtroom

today?

A. Yes, I do.

O. If you wou1d, please, indicate where he,s

sitting

A. He's sitting

O. and what he's wearing.

A. He's sitting right there wearing a gray shirt,

and he has microphone set on him.

MR. LONG: Your Honor, f,d ask that the

record reflect that the wi-tness has identified the

Defendant, Fernando Almanza.

THE COURT: It may.

BY MR. LONG:

A. Could you talk about what. Fernando,s work

schedule was.

A. He worked Monday through Friday wel1, excuse

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me.

One day a week, oo Tuesdays and Thursdays,

we had what we ca11ed a ki11 day. That was our day of

slaughter. usually it was on Tuesdays or Thursdays. on

those days he would usually arrive at about 6:00 a.m.

and he would stay until kill was done. And that was

often around 3:30, 4 o'c1ock, ki11 would be done. And

he would stay until the end of that.

On the other four weekdays, usually he came

from 7:30 in the morning to 10:30, depending on the time

of the year. If it was summer, work days start.ed at

about 6:00, they ended at 9:00. He was usually

scheduled for a three- to four-hour shift, so and

then saturdays and sundays he often would just pop in to

turn on the irrigation or it would be three to four

hours. The Paul would a11ot him a shift, and usually

it was three or four hours per day, excepting kil1 days.

0. And what were his was Fernando's

responsibilities on the ranch?

A. It was just ranch hand work, sometimes moving

cows up from the river if they escaped, moving cows from

the field into the corrals to prepare them for ki11 day,

mending fences. That was r mean, just basic ranch

repair-type stuff like that.

O. Okay. I'd like to talk about a specific day.

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A. Uh-huh.

a. And that's October 22, 201,L.

A. Uh-huh.

O. Do you remember that day?

A. Very c1ear1y.

O. It's an odd sometimes odd to have a date

like that stand out. Why does that stand out to you?

A. Because f remember the events of that day very,

very c1ear1y.

O. Do you remember what day of the week it was?

A. It was a Saturday.

O. And so if it's a Saturday, f'm assuming your

kids weren't at school?

A. No.

O. Where were they?

A. We1l, they were all over the ranch that d.y,

but they were on the ranch property the entire day.

a. And what were you doing that Saturday? Was

that a work day for you?

A. Yes. I usually work Saturdays.

I that morning I began work at about

8 o'clock, and r finished work that day maybe around

5:00. It was in the evening.

O. Okay. At some point did Ada come to you?

A. Yes.

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0. Do you remember approximately what time that

WAS ?

A. About 4 :3 0, 5 o ,clock.

O. Okay. Had Fernando been there that day?

A. Yes, he had.

O. Do you know about what time he left?

A. 10:30 in the morning.

A. When Ada came to you, where were you?

A. I was in the cutting room.

O. And were the kids allowed in that room?

A. Yes, they were , if f was there.

O. Okay. Did she talk to you?

A. Yes, she did.

O. And did she te11 you something?

A. Yes, she did.

O. Did that and what is it that she told you?

MR. GREEN: Objection, your Honor.

Hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled.

You may answer.

THE WITNESS: She came up to me. f was

working at the meat grinder, and r was loading meat into

bags. And the meat grinder is Iarge. rt,s the size of

this table top here. And we had a pile of meat there.

And she liked to sometimes help out, so she was pushing

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the meat towards me.

And she said, just suddenly, matter of

f act,ua1ly, she said, " Fernando has rea1ly sharp nai1s. "

And I stopped the meat grinder. The

button I'm like right here to the vent where it's

the meat is coming out. I slammed the button and I

stopped the meat grinder so I could listen to her. And

I said, "WhaL?"

And she said do you want me to continue

with what she said?

BY MR. LONG:

0. What did she say?

A. We1l, she said, "H€ touched me down there."

And I said, "What do you mean? "

And she said she just pu11ed down her

underwear and she showed me exactly what he did.

O. So she demonstrated it?

A. Yes, she did.

a. How did you react?

A. I immediately stood up f said, "pu11 your

underwear up." I stood up, I walked out of the room,

and I made a phone ca11.

a. Who did you make the phone call to?

A. I first ca1led my boyfriend at the time. And I

told him, "Please come here right now and watch .Jack,

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and r need you to clean up this mess in this butchering

f acility and I need to go talk to the police. ,,

O. Did you speak with police?

A. Yes, f did.

o. And who was with you when you talked to police?

A. wel1, r first ca11ed 9:-L, and they told me that

they would have someone cal1 me.

And at this point it,s kind of getting hazy

because I was so emotional.

The ki-ds were still alone in the cutting

room at this point in time. And they said that r would

need to go talk to somebody in san Manuel, so r got the

kids, put them in the house, and f went j_nto my bedroom

and r changed out of my butchering clothes, and r waited

for my boyfriend to get there.

When he arrived I just said, ,,f need to go

handle something. ,'

And he was 1ike, ,'you go handle what you

need to handle. ,,

And so f drove to San Manuel with Ada and

we arrj-ved at the poli_ce station.

O. Okay. At some point when you were at the

police station, did Ada need to use the restroom?

A. Yes, she did.

O. Te11 me about that.

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A. We went to the restroom. And she didn't want

to close the door, and we were obviously in the

women's restroom. We were the only people in the

building other than the officer.

And she pu11ed down her underwear. And I

didn't really want to look. I mean, it,s her thing.

And she says, "Mommy, it burns to pee."

And then when I saw her underwear, I saw

that there was blood in them.

a. Did you know that she had been injured prior to

that time?

A. I did not know what had happened other than

What she had shown me.

O. Okay. At some point do you know whether or not

a medical exam was conducted?

A. Yes, there was.

O. And did you take Ada to that medical exam?

A. Yes, I did.

0. Were you in the room when she spoke to doctors?

A. tnitially when she spoke to a nurse, I was in

the room, but she didn't say much. The nurse told her

to wait to speak to a different doctor.

0. Okay.

A. So then we waited and waited and waited. And

during the actual examination f was not in t.he room.

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O. Okay. Was that the only medical exam that Ada

went through?

A. It's kind of hard to remember, but I think that

was the only one.

O. Okay. And at some point you learned or you

took her to a place where she would be interviewed; is

that accurate?

A. Yes.

O. Were you present during that interview?

A. I was not present during the interview. I was

in another room.

O. What f'd like to do is to see if I can have you

go through some photographs and describe for us, if you

wou1d, what they are, okay?

This is Exhibit No. 3 . Can you te11 us

what that is?

A. Yeah, that's the ranch. Double Check Ranch.

a. And we've had a couple people kind of talk

about what is there. Could you just tell us real

briefly, show us where the home is, where your packing

house is, and where the pigs are?

A. Yeah.

O. Could you go ahead and stand up and show where

that is.

A. This is the house, this is the packing house

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right. here. The pigs would have been over in these

trees way over here.

O. And Exhibit No. 4, can you see what that shows?

A. Yes.

O. Explain what you see there.

A. This is the packing house here or actually,

we're the meat cutting room is actually over here.

House is over here. This is where the pigs aret in this

area over here.

O. Okay. And

A. Actua11y, right here is where the pigs are, f

think.

O. And what is Exhibit No. 6?

A. This is the house.

O. And Exhibit No. 15?

A. That's the packing house.

O. Exhibit No. t9?

A. That's the entrance to the packing house to go

up onto the slaughter room. So you would enter through

these doors right here to get into the kil1 floor, which

is right here.

O. f 'm sorry, I'rfl showing you on the right is

Exhibit No. 20 .

A. Oh, okay. That's the entrance to the packing

house.

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a. Okay. You just point,ed to Exhibit No. t9; is

that accurate?

A. YeS.

0. Now, Exhibit No. 20, explain what you see

there.

A. That is walking through these doors right here,

and you are looking onto the ki11 f1oor.

O. And f'm going to show now Exhibit No. 2i on the

1eft. Te11 us what that shows.

A. You would have walked through here, made a

1eft, and this is the cooler door. The cutting room is

through that door right there.

O. And you can stay up for just a 1itt1e bit,

Katie, if that's okay.

A. f want to note, though, that in October of

20LL, these flaps here, none of them were there.

O. Okay. Exhibit No. 22, can you explain what

that is?

A. That is the back exit that would. go off to the

back of the building.

A. And then Exhibir No. 23?

A. That's the kil1 chute door. That,s where the

animals ro11 out of.

O. And Exhibit No. 24?

A. That would be looking towards the front

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entrance, the original entrance that we looked at.

a. If r put Exhibit No. 24 next to Exhibit No. !9,

is that the same door?

A. Yes, it is.

a. f 'm showing you Exhibit No. 29.

A. Uh-huh.

A. Can you te11 us what this photo shows.

A. Yeah. That's the steps or that,s actually

from standing on top of the steps looking. The packing

house would have been right around that corner right

there. That's standing from right next to the house.

O. Okay. And the access to get to the pigpen, can

you show us where that is?

A. You would have to go all the way across the

dri-veway here. And there's a few different ways to get

there, but mostly this is the way we'd take. We,d go

through here. There is a corral gate right there. Then

you would then go through that corral, open another

gate, and go way that way through the trees.

MR. LONG: Okay. One moment, your Honor,

please.

BY MR. LONG:

O. I'm going to show you Exhibit No. 25.

A. Uh-huh.

O. Can you te1l us what that shows?

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A. That's the west side of the packing house.

This would be a freezer unit right here. On this

underground under thing here is where f'm going to,

1ike, park a tractor.

A. Exhibit No. 25 side by side with Exhibit No. 3.

Can you show us where it is that that picture shows?

A. This is right here, yes.

O. Okay. So that's the left side of the packing

house in Exhibit No. 3?

A. Correct.

O. And Exhibit No. 26, is that a similar view of

that same photo

A. Yeah.

O. from Exhibit 25?

A. Yes.

O. And then Exhibit 27?

A. Yes, although it just shows a little bit more

further this area right here.

O. Okay. And then here's Exhibit No. 29.

A. Uh-huh.

O. Can you te11 us what that shows.

A. Yeah. That's the back side of the packing

house right in this area right here. There,s a propane

tank right here kind of in the shaded area, and that,s

the propane tank that's right there.

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O. And that

packing house tha

A.

o.

shrubbery

pictures,

also towards

s depicted in

the left side of the

Exhibit No. 3?

ts

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A. Correct.

O. Is that accurate?

A. That would be the north side of the building.

O. That vantage point of Exhibit No. 28, is that

shooting towards where the pigpen is?

A. Yes. It the pigpens would be way were

right back behind here, behind this fence, all the way

in those trees.

O. Okay. And if you would indicate on

Exhibit No. 3 kind of the direction that you're showing.

A. You would be standing approximately right in

here, next to this tree right there, and you would be

looking back towards this area, all the way back here.

I mean, you can see these are two different

times of year here, too, because of the trees.

O. And that was going to be my next question. At

some times do these photos some of these photos

appear to be taken at different times of the yeah?

A

Uh-huh, correct.

Notwithstanding some of the differences in the

, does the where the buildings are in these

is that the same as they were in October 2Ot1-?

This is exactly where the buildings were in

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201"L.

a. And so far from what we,ve talked about, the

corral and the fence

A. Uh-huh.

O. is that also what the pictures depict, is

that also where they were in October 201,1,?

A. Yes. Some of the fences in the fields over

here changed, but I don't think that's relevant.

0. Okay, but nothing we've talked about so far?

A. NO.

A. If at any point I talk about an area in a photo

that was not the same as it was in 2011,, will you please

let me know?

A. Okay.

A. I'm showing you Exhibit No. 18 side by side

with Exhibit No. 3. Te1l us what Exhibit No. I'm

sorry No. 18 shows.

A. 18 shows the front east side of the packing

house. That vehicle, Jeep right there, would have been

parked approximately right here, facing that direction.

O. Okay. Now I'm showing Exhibit No. 30 side by

side with Exhibit No. 3. If you would, tell us where

that's showing.

A. This picture was taken probably standing

approximately about right here, and you would have been

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L57

facing this direction towards those corrals.

O. And Exhibit No. 31?

A. You would be standing approximately right here

at the entrance to the corrals.

Now you would have just walked into the

corral, right here.

O. Okay. And Exhibit No. 33?

A. You would have walked a little further into the

corral. You're sti11 facing that same direction, this

way right here.

O. Let me direct you to Exhibit No. 35.

A. Okay. Now you're walking towards the corral.

That's ca11ed a squeeze chute right there. And so you

would have then walked into the corral, you would have

been right there by the squeeze chute.

a. Is there a gate that you can see in this

photograph, Exhibit No. 35?

A. Yes. The gate is right here.

O. And f 'm going to show you Exhibit No. 36.

A. Uh-huh. That's the gate.

O. Okay. So can you te11 us in Exhibit No. 36

where the pigpen pigpens would be?

A. Yeah. You would walk straight back that way to

approximately that mesquite tree, which is right back

over there, and then you would have turned right, and

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the pigs would have been parallel to you.

O. And then Exhibit No. 51.

A. Uh-huh.

O. Can you te11 us what

A. Pigsties are right about here. Turn right and

they were there.

a. Okay. And Exhibit No. 52?

A. There's the pigsties all hidden in those Lrees.

O. Okay. And I'm going to put that one side by

side with Exhibit No. 4. That's 52 with Exhibit No. 4.

Can you show us approximately in Exhibit No. 4 where

that pigpen would be?

A. Deep in these thick trees right here. I mean,

it's rea11y hard to see in that picture just because of

how thick it is.

a. And then f'm showing you Exhibit No. 56. Does

that show what does that show?

A. Those are the pigsties. I mean, they're

rea11y they're camouflaged in there. And you can see

a couple of the pigs right here. Those are the pigsties

from here to about over there.

O. I'm sorry. Go back.

And f'm showing a couple pictures. Exhibit

No. 58.

A. Uh-huh. Those are the pigs.

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0. And you told us about, I think, Tinker Be1l.

That was the she was she had these pigs; is that

accurate?

A. Yes, she did.

O. And Exhibit No. 63?

A. That's Tinker Be11.

O. Now, f 'm going to show you Exhibit No. Iet

me start here with Exhibit No. 73. can you te11 us what

that shows?

A. Yeah. This is the field that would have been

to the west of the pigsties.

O. Okay. Now, I'flI going to put that side by side

with Exhibit No. 4. would you show us approximately the

angle that that shot shows us?

A. It's about, like, right here, this area right

there somewhere, I think. It,s kind of hard maybe

right here.

O. Al1 right. Is that

A. Yeah. f'm looking at the vegetation, yeah,

because this tree would have been that tree.

O. Can you see the fence in Exhibit No. 4?

A. I believe it,s kind of f don't know.

rt's r beli-eve it would be right along with this 1i-ne

right here.

O. A11 right. Give me one second. Showing you

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Exhibi t

A. Because I see tractor 1ines. That's what's

throwing me off.

O. Showing you Exhibit No. 4. Let me see if I

can

A. Yeah, there it l_s.

O. zoom in on that.

A. There's the fence line is right here. Those

are power lines f guess, or something. I think it,s

right there.

a. Okay. So then the picture that we just showed

in Exhibit No. 73, that was taken from the left of the

fence line; is that accurate?

A. We11, yes. It would be on the no. Wait.

Hold on. I'm confused nowO. Okay, f'fiI sorry.

A. Let me see the pictures again.

O. Let me put those back.

A. I get those things confused

THE COURT: Wait a minute, wait a minute.

You're both talking over each other. we finally got to

that stage.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

THE COURT: Stop talking and 1et him ask

whatever he's going to.

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THE WITNESS: Okay.

THE COURT: He' 11 stop when you're talking.

THE WITNESS: Okay, 9ot it.

THE COURT: She has to take down everything

that's said here.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

THE COURT: Try again.

BY MR. LONG:

O. f 'm goj-ng to try this again with Exhibit No. 73

and Exhibit No. 4.

So that Exhibit No. 73 is taken from the

viewing the house or the packing house to the left of

the fence line; is that accurate?

A. Packing house is over on this side, right over

here, so it would be on the west side of the fence 1ine.

O. And if you're looking on Exhibit No. 4, can you

indicate kind of the angle that that Exhibit No. 73

shows ?

A. About right here, 1i-ke this.

0. f 'm going to show you Exhibit No. 75.

A. Uh-huh.

0. Can you te11 us what that shows?

A. Yeah. That's just a better shot. It's more

grounded. And that shows the packing house right over

there.

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0. You testified earlier that. you did observe

the there was some blood in your daughter's

underwear; is that accurate?

A. Yes.

O. Let me show you Exhibit No. 83. Do you

recognize those?

A. Yep.

O. And what are those?

A. Those are Ada's underwear.

O. And when was she wearing those underwear?

A. She was wearing those on that one Saturday in

October.

O. Katie, you can have a seat.

Katie, I'm showing you Exhibit No. 126A.

Do you recognize this?

A. Yes, I do

O. And what is that?

A. That's Ada's dress.

0. And when was she wearing this dress?

A. The last day she wore it was that day in

October.

O. When you say "that day in October,,' what are

you talking about?

A. The day that she came to me and talked to me

about what had happened to her.

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-3 Filed 05/16/19 Page 163 of 202
]-63

(Marked f or identi f ication St,ate' s Exhibit

No. ]-268. )

BY MR. LONG:

O. I'm going to you show you Exhibit No. 1268.

And do you recognize what's in there?

A. Yes, I do.

0. And what is that?

A. Those are Ada's underwear.

o. Are those the same underwear that were depicted

in the photo you just described?

A. Yes, they are.

o. And are those that is the und.erwear she was

wearing when you saw blood in her underwear?

A. Yes.

MR. LONG:

introduction of Exhibit

THE COURT

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

BY MR. LONG:

O. And are those

A. Yes.

Your Honor, I move for

l.268.

A11 right. Mr. Green?

No objection, Your Honor.

A11 right, sir.

the underwear?

THE COURT Mr. Long, 1et me have the

envelope and 1et me mark it.

MR. LONG: Sorry.

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THE COURT: Do you want to publish? Do you

want to publish at this time?

MR. LONG: I would, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I haven't real1y had a chance

to te11 you, ladies and gentlemen, "publish" just means

to let the jury see an exhibit. Sometimes it's done by

showing it on the TV screen/ sometimes the exhibit is

passed to the jury so each of the jurors can look at it,

sometimes the attorney just holds it up for you to see.

Go ahead, publish it.

And the clerk has the envelope. For the

record I'11 say Exhibit 1,268 has been marked as admitted

and admitted.

MR. LONG: Katie, those are all my

questions.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Long.

Hold on. We're not done yet.

Mr. Green, gu€stions? Or is your

cross-examination going to take more than 10, 15

minutes ?

MR. GREEN: It might, Your Honor, yes.

THE COURT: What we're going to do, ladies

and gentlemen, is go ahead and take the afternoon

recess.

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I do ask you all to please remember the

admonition. witness will be back on the stand when we

come back. f t ' s 3 :20. We' 11 start agai-n as close as we

can to 3:35 , 3:40 . Go ahead and fo11ow Todd out. We,11

see you after the recess.

(Recessed from 3:22 p.m. untiT 3:4j p.m.

The proceedings resumed with the presence of the jury.)

THE COURT: Let's have the record show the

attorneys are back in the courtroom, the Defendant,

Mr. Almanza, is present, the witness is on the witness

stand, and the jury is back in the courtroom.

Mr. Long, are you ready to proceed?

MR. LONG: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Green?

MR. GREEN: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Green, I believe it,s your

turn for cross-examination, sir.

CROSS-EXAMINATTON

BY MR. GREEN;

O. ,Just a quick question on I ,m conf used about

all of the names in this case, and. so if you could help

clarify just f or a moment. What Ad.a's name is

Wilhelmi; is that correct?

A. Correct.

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a. And Jack's name is?

A. Ink.

O. Okay. And your 1ega1 name is euinn?

A. Correct, Quinn.

O. A11 right. Okay. I just wanted. to make sure I

got them all right in my head.

Can you te11 us again what happened when

you weren't with Ada when she clearly when she if

anything happened when it happened, correct?

A. Correct.

O. And at some point she came to you and you were

in, where? In the packing house?

A. Correct.

O. And she came do you remember if she came in

the front door? The back door?

A. I do not remember. She came into the

packing the cutting room, so whether she came in the

back door or the front door, I don,t know.

O. You would have had to she would have come

into the cutting room the same way regardless of

A. Yes.

a. which door you came in through?

A. Uh-huh

O. And what was the first thing that she told you

when she came into the room?

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A. We1I, she actually was in there f or a 1itt.Ie

while, so I'm assuming "hello." It was she was in

there for a 1itt1e while before she came and talked to

me.

O. Okay. And when the kids were in the packing

cutting room, did you have a side of beef up or

A. No. I was grinding or getting ready to grind,

because I was getting to the end of my day. And I'm

sure I had a 1ot of packages of steaks and stuff on the

tab1e, because at one point 'Jack was helping me Iabe1.

And I was working the meat grinder and then so I

wouldn't have had a side of beef up at that time of day.

a. And Jack was in there with you, helping you?

Is that what you said earlier?

A. Yes, when Ada was in there. They came in

together that afternoon.

O. Jack and Ada came in together?

A. I believe so.

O. And so when the kids are in there with you, are

they just milling around the room?

A. They usually stand and talk to flle , and then

sometimes they jump in and help out with what is

appropriate for them to help out with.

a. They don't run the grinder?

A. They don't actually work-work the grinder,

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like, rro. That's my job.

O. Risht.

A. But Ada would stand there sometimes and push

meat towards ltle, but her 1itt1e hands are never near the

grinder portion. That's my job.

O. I wouldn't have thought they were, so

A. Yeah.

a. So at some point in the conversation Ada said

something to you

A. Yes.

O. that caused you pause, correct?

A. YeS.

O. And what was it that she said?

A. "Fernando has rea11y sharp fingernails. "

0. And that was the first thing she said to you

that was related to the incident?

A. Yes.

O. Okay. And did you ask her a question after

that or did she respond further?

A. I said, "What do you mean? "

O. Okay. And then what was her response?

A. She said to me what happened, she showed me

what happened. "He touched ffi€, " and she showed me what

happened.

O. Did she ever te1I you that he tickled her?

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A. Not that I reca11, but it, was t,wo years dgo, so

I'm not sure.

O. As you remember right now, the first thing she

said was, "He has rea11y sharp fingernails"?

A. Yes.

0. What was your relationship with Fernando?

A. Fernando would have been a coworker, but not a

close coworker.

O. Okay. Were you his supervisor?

A. No.

O. So he works directly for paul

A. Correct.

O. correct?

A. YeS.

O. And Paul is the owner of the ranch?

A. Yes -

O. And did you have reason to work alongside of

Fernando ever or to work with him?

A. The only times he rea11y would work alongside

me were on kil1 days when he would be we would be

moving up animals up the chute.

O. Okay. And did he do killing? Did he

A. He was not permitted to ki11. Only I was.

a. Okay. And the animals so he was just

driving the cows and

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A. Uh-huh.

O. pushing them up the

A. Uh-huh.

O. whatever, the fence, the chute, whatever you

just

A. Correct.

a. And so he was never actually working, 1ike, arm

to arm with you, it was just

A. There was a couple times a long time ago that

he had helped me in the cutting room, but not on a

regular basis. And it was never for under the

employment of Pau1.

O. Okay, it was never f 'm sorry. I didn't

understand that last comment.

A. Paul paid him for a certain number of hours a

day to work. He was not ever in the cuttj-ng room

helping me cut anything during his scheduled working

time with Pau1.

A. Okay. Were you cutting for Paul or were you

cutting for yourselfZ

A. I was most of the time cutting for Pau1.

Sometimes I would cut for myself, but I would pay Paul a

rental fee for the facility if I wanted to do my own

animal s .

O. Okay. So because Fernando wasn't hired to help

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you out

A. Correct.

O. he would not do that on his regular work

hours ?

A. Correct.

O. Did he get paid for that time that he was

helping you out?

A. No.

O. So he just did it as a favor?

A. Uh-huh, yes.

O. Would you say you said that you were not

close coworkers. Would you say that you didn't get

along very well?

A. What f meant by not close was that his job at

the ranch was very different than mine, so it wasn't

like we worked in the same room together. He worked

more out in the fields and mending fences. That was not

my job. I worked in the packing house. So we were not

rea1ly around each other when we worked.

O. Do you ever remember punching Fernando in the

face ?

A. Yes, I do.

O. Can you te11 me about that.

A. He behaved inappropriately with ffi€, and I

turned around instinctively and I punched him.

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O. Okay. Did that happen once or more than once?

A. Just once.

O. Were there other incidents where you and he did

not get along? I mean, punching in the face seems

like you didn't

A. Yeah, that we r just I had bad feelings

about him and I just didn't want him near me.

O. And yet you would work with him and he would

help you out occasionally?

A. Not once I got those bad feelings. I would not

1et him around me or my children.

0. You said that your kids were all over the ranch

at one point in time.

A. A11 over the ranch?

O. yes.

A. Yeah, they would be hanging around or not

all entirely all over the ranch. The ranch was

L2,000 acres total, so that,s a big area to encompass

all over the ranch, but yeah, they run around all over

the area of the ranch.

O. The picture that was up there on the screen

A. Uh-huh.

O. that showed us the aerial view of the ranch,

sort of as bounded

A. Uh-huh.

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a. by buildings

A. Uh-huh.

a. and fences

A. Correct.

a. is that what you're talking about?

THE COURT: Let me stop just a second.

Several times you're going "uh-huh. " you can,t do that.

You have to say "yestr --

THE WITNESS: Okay.

THE COURT: -- please. Okay, go on.

MR. GREEN: I'm sorry, Your Honor. I'm not

very good at catching that.

BY MR. GREEN:

O. Is that what you're talking about is where the

kids played?

A. It depended on what time of year it was. It

depended on when it was in relation to this event.

When certain times when we lived there,

they were allowed to play in a much larger area, and

there were months where they had to play in a more

enclosed area. And then there was a very long time up

until the point that we left the ranch that they had to

play basically only in the house while r worked, or they

could only go to other areas around the ranch when f was

home.

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So it depended on the situation.

a. So when Ada told us a few minutes ago that she

had to be in the house when you were in the packing

hous e

A. Correct.

O. then that's true? I mean, 1zou

A. At one point in time

O. She did at some point?

A. y€s, that was very true.

O. Okay. In relation to the incident that we're

talking about, what were the restrictions on the kids as

far as playing around the ranch at that point in time?

A. That day, they were supposed to play within the

white picket fence of the yard. If they needed to come

get me in the cutting room, they were allowed to cross

the driveway to go into the cutting room to get me.

O. Okay. And did the kids always do what you told

them to do?

A. No. They're children.

O. And while you said earlier that Ada is a girly

girl in some ways because she plays with do11s and

things like that

A. Uh-huh.

THE COURT: See, you did it again.

THE WITNESS: Sorry. Yes.

Case 2:15-cv-02064-DLR Document 82-3 Filed 05/16/19 Page 175 of 202
l.75

BY MR. GREEN:

O. she doesn't strike me as being a girly girl

in my idea of what that means. fn other words, I think

she seems like she's pretty rambunctious. Is that

true ?

A. True.

O. And she goes out and plays around the yard,

doesn't worry too much about getting dirty? Is that

true ?

A. She's changed a 1ot in the last two years, and

so

O. What about when she was 4?

A. She was both girly girl and she liked to

explore and be rambunctious.

a. Okay. She told us that she liked science, that

that was her favorite subject.

A. YeS.

O. Does she like to go out and pick up worms and

do things like that, to explore and understand nature

and the things around her?

A. YeS.

MR. GREEN: Okay. And so she that,s

it. f don't think I have any other questions. Thank

you.

THE COURT: A11 right, sir. Thank you.

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Redirect, sir?

MR. LONG: Yes, sir.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. LONG:

0. You were asked questions about the time that

you punched Fernando. That did happen?

A. YeS.

a. You said he was inappropriate?

A. Yes.

O. Explain that.

A. It was a ki11 day. ft was a Thursday. And I

had a stubborn cow that didn't want to go up the chute.

It was halfway up the chute. And I was making my

motions it was a wild cow, so I didn't want to get

right in there with it, but I'm making my motions, "yaw,

move, " you know, you're banging sticks.

He came up behind me and he pressed his

body against me. He was clothed, I was clothed. Like

I said this was a ki11 d.y, so yeah. And he pressed

himself up against me and I felt him in a way I did

not want to fee1, so I turned around and I punched

him.

O. Okay. Was there any other times where he

invaded your privacy?

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A. There would be times where I was working in the

cutting room. One time in particular I was on the band

saw, which is a very dangerous piece of equipment, and I

was so focused in cutting bones that I was cuttirg, he

came up behind me and grabbed me from my side, like

this, and pushed himself against me. I screamed.

Luckily I didn't cut my hand off.

O. Were there any other times where he invaded

your privacy?

A. He would come up to me and he would just

when I was he sometimes he would jump in and help

clean at the end of a ki11 d.y, and he would come up to

me and just kind of brush against rTr€, put his hands near

me. I did not like that.

O. Did he ever ask you out?

A. Yes, he did.

O. More than once?

A. Yes.

0. About how many times?

A. At least six.

O. Did you what was your response to that?

A. ttNo. tt

O. Had he ever been in your house?

A. Yes.

O. TeI1 me about that.

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A. In addition to times where he helped me move

furniture into my house when f was moving, helped me

hang paintings in my house when f was moving in, there

was I usually got up early, about 5:30, buL there

were two occasions where at approximately 6:00 d.il.,

shortly after he arrived to work, he walked into my

house unannounced.

It was not uncommon for me to leave my

doors unlocked or have them already be unlocked that

time of day because the kids would have been in and out

already or r would have just left them unlocked. And he

walked into my house unlocked, came into my bedroom.

was in the bathroom brushing my teeth.

I told him to get out and asked him, ,,Why

are you in my house? " And he said that he wanted to

come wake me up.

a. Did you ever observe him looking in your

windows ?

A.

o.

A.

Yes, I did.

Te11 me about that.

I was at home one evening. I was on the couch.

r was watching a movie with my boyfriend, and r noticed

that his car was driving back and forth. r didn,t say

anything to my boyfriend, I just my boyfriend and I

were not on we were just not on those terms. we were

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not on rea1ly good terms.

But my boyfriend 1eft, and then later that

evening I saw him looking in my house.

O. Who is "him" ?

A. Fernando.

O. Okay. So it was prior to this incident

there was some animosity; is that fair?

A. Yes.

a. Wel1, then certainly, Ms. Quinn, because of

this animosity, you must have put your daughter up to

accusing him of touching her?

MR. GREEN: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Go ahead and answer it.

THE WTTNESS: I did not put my daughter up

to that.

BY MR. LONG:

O. You didn't take your daughter to be examined by

at least one doctor in her most private of areas in

order to get back at him?

MR. GREEN: Objection again, your Honor.

It's argumentative.

THE COURT: At this stage f'11 sustain the

obj ection.

You don't need to answer that one, ma'am.

BY MR. LONG:

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O. You took your daughter to get a medical exam,'

is that right?

A. YeS.

O. At what time did that take place?

A. I took my daughter down to Tucson Medical

Center in it was already dark outside. It was in the

evening, very, very 1ate, and the exam did not take

we went to the emergency room. The exam, it did not

take place for a long time.

O. Was that into the early morning hours?

A. Yes.

0. You talked earlier about Ada demonstrating what

Fernando did.

A. YeS.

0. Okay. When she demonstrated that, did she put

her finger inside of herself?

A. She put her finger on on herself and

slightly inside, 1ike, just a 1itt1e bit, and pu11ed

right out.

A. Okay. When you went to the poli-ce station in

San Manuel, did you talk with Ada about what happened?

A. No. I just wrote down the facts on a piece of

paper of what I remember from that day, I believe.

O. Were you talking to her about the facts?

A. No.

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O. Was she relaying to you about what happened?

A. Yes.

O. Okay. So she was talking to you about what

happened. Did I get that right?

A. Yes.

a. Were you talking to her?

A. She was talking to ile, and then I said the

police officer informed us that we should probably just

wait until we got down to the hospital. And I said,

" Okay. "

O. Explain that, if you would.

A. He just said that we needed to talk to

professionals about she needed to talk to a

professional about this and it real1y wasn't his

place it's kind of hard for me to remember everything

he said. It was a long time ago. I was upset.

0. We1l, let me focus you back a little bit. In

the car ride to the police station

A. Uh-huh.

O. who was in that car?

A. 'Just me and Ada.

O. And during that car ride, did you did you

and Ada talk about what Fernando did?

A. No, we did not.

O. During your police during the ride to the

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police station, did Ada give you any more facts about

what happened?

A. No.

O. On your ride to the hospital in Tucson, did you

and Ada talk about what Fernando did?

A. NO.

a. Did Ada give you any more facts?

A. NO.

O. Did you give did you talk to her about it or

talk to her about the facts?

A. No, I did not.

O. Do you know what your kids were doing on the

dry, October 22nd, 201-L, between the hours of 10:30 and

approximately 4:30 or 5:00 when Ada came and talked to

you ?

A. From 10:30 to 4:30 I would have been mostly in

the cutting room that d.y, and f'm sure they were

playing somewhere on the ranch. r'm sure r fed them

lunch at some point. f don' t remember.

O. You talked to us about Ada,s demonstration.

A. Uh-huh, yes.

0. Did you see whether or not she injured herself

when she touched when she demonstrated what Fernando

did to her?

A. I do not believe she injured herself.

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O. And what do you base that on?

A. Because she didn,t make any noises of pain or

crying or ouch.

O. But did she ever refer to pain or sharpness in

talking about Fernando?

A. YeS.

O. And what was that that she saidZ

A. "He has very sharp f ingernails. ,'

MR. LONG: Those are all my questions.

THE COURT: A11 right, sir. Thank you.

May this witness step down as a witness?

MR. LONG: Can we approach, Judge?

THE COURT: Sure, come on up.

(Bench conference outside the presence of

the jury and the court reporter. )

THE COURT: Now, that brief discussion, frdy

she step down now?

MR. LONG: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Thank you very much.

MR. LONG: She's not excused. Subject to

reca11 , please, ,Judge .

THE COURT: Oh, and I should te11 you that

what we call the rule of exclusion has been invoked, and

as a victim representative, of course you may stay and

listen to the trial if you wish, but you cannot talk to

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any ot,her wit.ness about the testimony here at the tria1,

and that rea11y includes your daughter. I mean, you

just cannot talk about your testimony. Okay?

MS. QUINN

THE COURT

have outside a 24-and-a

MR. LONG:

THE COURT

MR. LONG:

THE COURT

A11 right.

f 'm going to guess you don,t

-ha1f-minute witness.

,Judge, I actually think we do.

Do you rea1ly?

Yes. We'd like to approach.

Yeah, come on up.

(Bench conference outside the presence of

the jury and the court reporter.)

THE COURT: We're going to try to get

another witness in and stil1 be done at a reasonable

time. Go ahead and call your next witness, please.

MR. LONG: Thank you, Your Honor. The

State cal1s Kathy Bodwell.

THE COURT: Ma'am, if you would come all

the way forward, please, and right over here to be sworn

in.

(The witness, Kathy Bodwel1, was duly sworn

by the clerk of the court, according to 1aw.)

THE COURT: Okay, rTr&'am, come on over and

have a seat. Kind of have to walk around the TV if you

wou1d. .Tust pu11 up to the table so you ' re comf ortable,

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and then that will bend and move. Thank you.

Mr. Long?

MR. LONG: Thank you, Your Honor.

KATHY BODWEI,L,

ca1led as a witness herein, having been first duly

sworn, was exami-ned and testif ied as f olIows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. LONG:

0. Ma'am, would you state your name, please.

A. My name is Kathy Bodwel1.

O. And are you currently employed?

A. Not currently.

a. What are you currently doing to occupy your

time?

A. I'm currently a student. It's my last year of

my social work master's, so f want to focus on that and

my internship.

O. Prior to becomi-ng a graduate student, where did

you work?

A. I worked at the Southern Arizona Children's

Advocacy Center.

a. And what was your job there?

A. I was a forensic interviewer.

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O. And what was some of your training that enabled

you to do the work of a forensic interviewer?

A. I have a bachelor's in psychology, and then I

attended two trainings. One training is the basic

interviewing, forensic interviewing training, and that' s

an eight-hour training, and then also the advanced

training, or advanced forensic interviewing training,

and that's a 40-hour training.

On top of that we get training

at-the-job training, so we get mentored by other

interviewers there.

O. Are you do you observe other people's

intervi ews ?

A. Yes, that's part of it. I observed interviews,

and then my colleagues would also observe mine, just to

provide me feedback until they felt that I was ready to

go on my own.

O. And approximately how many intervj_ews have you

conducted as a forensic interviewer?

A. At least 1,000 interviews, I would say.

a. And are you familiar with the concept of a

semi-structured cognitive interview?

A. YeS.

A. And what is that?

A. Okay. So the semi-cognitive interviewing

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approach is used by the Children's Advocacy Center, and

that is an empirically validated approach that's used to

obtain information from children that are suspected to

be involved in abuse or witness a violent crime.

O. fs the purpose of the techniques that you're

trained to use to get the child to express a narrative?

A. Yes.

O. And is it also to get the child to talk in

their own words?

A. Yes.

a. Is it to also avoid suggesting information?

A. Yes.

O. Is it also to be able to determine if the child

has been influenced or coached in some way?

A. There are things of course, if I feel during

the interview that the child has said something that

seems like they were coached, then f will further ask

clarif ication questions .

O. What types of things would you be looking for

to indicate that a child has been coached?

A. We11, one of the things that might happen is

that right in the beginning of the interview, the child

is already telling me things, like disclosing

disclosing things, or during the interview a child might

say that their parents or their friend told them what to

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say. So if that would come up during the interview,

then I would clarify, you know, investigate it more.

THE COURT: We'11 hold on. Go ahead and

change, please.

(The proceedings resumed with the presence

of Alisha Olivarez, court interpreter.)

THE COURT: Thank you. Are you ready?

THE INTERPRETER: YeS, YouT HonoT.

THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Long.

BY MR. LONG:

a. What about the language that the child uses?

Is that something you look for?

A. Yes. You want to use their language. you

don't want to use any words that they might not

understand. so in the beginning of the interview during

rapport with the child, r just talk about a neutral

topi-c, just to kind of get that verbal sense of where

they're at verba11y.

o. And in determining whether or not a child has

possibly been coached, do you look at whether or not the

child is using developmentally appropriate language?

A. Yes.

o. Did you conduct an interview with Ada wilhelmiz

A. Yes, I did.

o. Did you have a chance to review a video of that

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intervi ew?

A. Yes, I did.

a. As well as an audio?

A. Yes.

O. And are all your interviews videotaped?

A. Yes, all of the interviews are videotaped.

O. And is the place where the interview is

conducted, is it referred to as a soft room or a

child-friendly room?

A. Yes. The Children Advocacy Center, the room

where I interview the child is very child friendly.

0. A1so, in talking about significant or important

information, is hearing sensory experience from the

child important?

A. Yes. During the interview, sensory details are

very important.

O. And why is that?

A. Because research shows that children who are

coached, they won't provide you with those details, and

children that did experience that, they will have those

details, those sensory details, so whether they're

audio/v:-sua1, you know, tactile, d11 those.

O. What about demonstrat j_ons, the child

demonstrating things? fs that something that is

important in looking for?

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A. Yes.

O. Why is that?

A. Because it's most likeIy someone that's

coaching the child is not going to go through the

process of showing them things like that.

But a1so, a child her age is not going to

remember all of those details.

O. Are you looking for a child also to correct you

about things?

A. Yes. If a child corrects you, then that's very

good. It illustrates that they,re not suggestible, so

that's very good.

a. Okay. Through the course of your interview

with Ada, in describing the incident, did she use

language that was appropriate to her development?

A. Yes, she did.

O. During the course of the interview with Ada,

did she describe a sensory experience?

A. She did. Mu1tip1e.

O. Multiple?

A. Yes.

O. Did she give any demonstrations?

A. Yes, she did.

a. Multiple?

A. I don't reca11 if there were multiples, but I

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do remember that she was showing me how she she was

telling me that the alleged suspect was kneeling when

this occurred, so she showed me that.

0. And you use the word "alleged suspect." Was

that your word or was that her word?

A. I believe that is my word, y€s.

O. Those weren't the words that she used?

A. No, flo, no. That's just my words, yeah.

O. Did she correct you throughout the interview?

A. Multiple times, ye s, she dj-d.

O. Was anyone other than yourself and Ada in the

room when you were interviewing her?

A. NO.

O. When you were talking to her, was she

forthright with information?

A. Oh, yes. She was very we11, she was open

with ille , but then something we11, f could explain.

I was doing a body map with her. So it's

something that you you do, you go over their body

parts, so what do you call this part of your body. So

then you go through, ear, and you 1et the child name

them. And then when we got to the part where she I

asked her what that part that she pees with is ca11ed,

that prompted her to te11 me what happened.

O. And so based on your training and experience,

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was her initial disclosure in context with what was

being discussed?

A. Yes.

O. And is that important, that the disclosure

comes in context with what's being discussed?

A. Yes, because like I mentioned before, you know,

if children are coached, they'11 come in and just blurt

it out.

But this was you know, w€ were goi-ng

through a body rndp, and that you know, that part kind

of reminded her of what happened.

O. Are you familiar with the concept of script

memory and episodic memory?

A. Yes.

a. Could you explain what those are?

A. Script memory is kind of things that happen on

a daily basis, so you go to school every day or you go

to the market every day, and they're kind of like

present things.

And then episodic memory, those are, 1ike,

major events that happen, so maybe going to watch a

specific movie, stuff like that.

O. Okay. And talking about script memory, is this

something that happens over and over and over again?

A. Yes.

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A. That is generally handled the same way?

A. Yes, that's correct.

O. And does the person have a difficult time

distinguishing between different events that are

similar?

A. Yes. One thing that you could see, if someone

stated, 1ike, oh, this would always happen or he would

always do this, like that would be an example of a

script memory.

O. Okay. And so using that language, ,it would

always be this wdy,,, based. on your traj_ning and.

experience doesn't mean that it would in every instance

be what they said. They're using

MR. GREEN Objection, Your Honor.

BY MR. LONG:

O. script memo ry?

He's leading the witness.

You always let him finish, but

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

don't answer -

MR. GREEN Yeah.

THE COURT: I'm sorry, back up. Finish

your question so he can make his objection.

BY MR. LONG:

O. My question, just to clarify it is, so am f

understanding you correctly that, based on what you just

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test,if ied Lo, that, when somebody is in script memory and

says something happened always this wdy, that doesn,t

necessarily mean that it actually happened that way but

that they're in script memory; is that accurate?

THE COURT: Okay, hold on.

Go ahead.

MR. GREEN: Your Honor, that's a leading

question. He's been leading throughout this line of

questioning.

THE COURT: Okay. And I'm going to

overrule you, although you,re sort of correct. But I'm

going to overrule you. She can answer the question.

Go ahead and give an answer.

THE WfTNESS: Okay. Can you repeat it one

more time? Sorry about that.

BY MR. LONG:

a. Prior to my question, you said that someone,

when they're in script memory, would use the term "it

would always be this way.', And so based on your

training and experience and research, saying that

something always happened that way doesn't mean that it

happened that way every single time, but is an indicator

that they're i-n script memory; is that accurate?

A. That's correct.

O. lf, for example, somebody feeds their dogs on a

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regular basis twice a day and they've done it for a long

period of time and they do it with another person, if

they said I always do this, or this is how we do it,

would that indicate to you that they're in script

memory?

A. Yes.

a. Then episodic, how is that different from

script memory?

A. Because it's something that occurred, that's

occurring, but it's not, 1ike, a daily-basis thing.

O. Is it

A. So like an event.

O. Or is it something that stands out?

A. Yes -

a. So is it possible that somebody could be

discussing an event that generally is in script memory

but some unique event stands out to take them out of

that script memory?

A. It's possible, y€s.

O. Again, for example, if somebody goes to church

every week and it's the same kind of sermon or the same

type of people there, but then one day there's a car

accident and a car comes through the church, that might

be something that stands out. Is that a fair

articulation?

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A. Yes, that's correct.

O. Showing you Exhi-bit No. L20 and ask you if

you'd look at that.

Do you recognize that?

A. ft looks familiar, yes.

O. Okay. Can you te1I us why that looks familiar?

A. Because this is a drawing that I drew with Ada

when we were we call this a body map. So we were

doing the body ffiop, identifying the body parts.

O. And is this the drawing that you did with Ada

when she told you what happened?

A. YeS.

a. And is this the map I'm sorry the drawing

that you used with Ada when she gave sensory experience?

A. Yes.

O. And during the interview where she did

demons trati ons ?

A. Yes, that's it.

O. And in the interview where she corrected you?

A. Yes.

O. And in the interview where she used language

appropriate to her age?

A. Yes.

MR. LONG: Your Honor, f move for

introduction of Exhibi t No . 1,20 .

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THE COURT

MR. GREEN

THE COURT

marked as admitted and

MR. LONG:

are all my questions.

THE COURT

A11 right. Mr. Green?

No objection, Your Honor.

Okay. Exhibit L20 will be

admitted.

Thank you, Ms. Bodwel1. Those

Mr. Green?

CROSS_EXAMTNATION

BY MR. GREEN:

O. Ms. Bodwe11, I have only one question, and that

is, as you were asking her and going through the body

map and drawing making your drawing, you were going

ears, eyes, nose? I'm not sure if that's the exact

order, but that ' s the gf eneral thing, correc t ?

A. Yes.

O. And when you got you say that when you got

to the place where you pee, I think is the way she used

it; is that correct

A. Yes, I believe so.

O. that she all of a sudden blurted out that

did you know Fernando touched me here; is that

correct ?

A. Yes. From what f reca11, yes.

O. And there was no question asked about that at

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that point in time, correct? you hadn't asked her

about

A. NO.

O. if anybody ever touched you?

A. No, I had not.

O. And so at this point you were just kind of

going through body parts?

A. Correct.

a. So is your testimony, though, that you felt

like that was an appropriate answer, even though there

was no question asked and there was flo, I gruess,

connection to it seemed to me like that just came out

of the b1ue.

MR. LONG : Obj ection; he ' s testi fying.

THE COURT: We1l, 1et,s I , 11 sustain

your objection and simply te11 you to rephrase your

question.

BY MR. GREEN:

O. Does it seem to you like it came out of the

b1ue, that it was blurted?

A. To me it felt r felt like it prompted her to

say it, because she she did.n't okay, I don,t think

f'm understanding your question.

0. Okay, 1et's try it again, because I'm not

understanding your answer either.

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A. Yeah.

THE COURT: Okay. You ready?

MR. GREEN: Ready.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

BY MR. GREEN:

O. She said we11, she gave an answer to a

question that wasn't asked, correct?

A. Yes.

O. And she did that in response as you were going

through the questioning on the body parts?

A. Yes.

a. So you were asking her, what,s this, what's

that, what' s this, what' s that?

A. Correct.

O. And rather than answer what's that, she stated,

'Did you know Fernando touched me there"?

A. From what I reca11 is I asked her to point to

where her r gave her a marker and r asked her to mark

where she pees, because I believe that she didn,t know

the name. So f asked her, "Can you show me on this

drawing where you pee? "

And then she showed ffie, and then she says,

"Oh, do you know Fernando touched me there.',

a. Okay. And in your opinion, that was an

appropriate answer at an appropriate time?

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A. Yeah.

MR. GREEN: Okay. No further questions.

THE COURT: A11 right. Redirect,?

MR. LONG: Yes, Your Honor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. LONG:

0. So what defense counsel is asking is, you

certainly must have thought., well, this girl's been

coached when she gave you that response to that; is that

right ?

A. No, I didn't feel like she was coached.

0. We11, why not?

A. Because she could have said that in any

1ike, when we were going over the ears, the hands, I

mean, dt any point.

a. Based on your training and experience and the

thousands of interviews you did, did her disclosure at

that point, wds that in context with what you all were

talking about?

A. Yes, it was.

O. Did she make that disclosure when talking about

her ears?

A. No.

O. Did she make that disclosure when talking about

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204

CERTIFICATE

I, ,Jacquelyn A. A11en, RPR, a Certif ied

Reporter in the state of ArLzona, do hereby certify that

the foregoing pages 1 - 203 constitute a ful1, true, and

accurate transcript of the proceedings had in the

foregoing matter, all done to the best of my ski11 and

ability.

SIGNED and dated this 28Lh day of February,

2014.

JACQUELYN A. ALLEN, RPR Certif ied Report,er No. 50151 For the State of Arizona

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