NASA Press Conference on the Space Shuttle Columbia

Sean O'Keefe, Administrator

Wednesday, August 27, 2003, 11:02 a.m.

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MR. MAHONE: Good morning, and thank you for

joining us here in Washington and from the centers

across the country at our various NASA field centers.

Before I introduce the NASA Administrator, I want to go

over a few guidelines for this morning's press

conference. We'll begin with questions here in

Washington, and then go to the various NASA centers.

Please wait for the microphone before asking your

question, and don't forget to tell us your name and

affiliation.

Because of the large number of reporters who want to

participate in today's briefing, please limit your
inquiries to one question and one follow-up, and,

please, please, no multi-part questions.

Again, thank you for taking the time to join us today,

and allow me to introduce the NASA Administrator, Sean

O'Keefe.

MR. O'KEEFE: Thank you, Glenn, and good morning.

Thank you all for spending time with us here this

morning.

Yesterday, we received the report of the Columbia

Accident Investigation Board run by Admiral Hal Gehman,

and shortly thereafter I had the opportunity to speak

to several of our colleagues here throughout this

agency to describe those initial findings and

recommendations as well as to offer some views of what

the direction will be from this point forward. And so

if you'll permit me, let me draw a little bit from some

of those comments here in the context of today's

discussion with you, as well, as we start this and, of

course, respond to your questions.
This is, I think, a very seminal moment in our agency's

history. Over the 45 years of this extraordinary

agency, it has been marked and defined in many respects

by its extraordinary successes and the tragic failures

in both contexts. And in each of those, in a tracing

of the history of that 45 years, there is always an

extended debate and discussion of the national policy

as well as the focus of the charter and objective of

exploration of what this agency was chartered and

founded to do in 1958. And I expect that in this

circumstance it will be no different. This is one of

those moments in which there will certainly be a very

profound debate, discussion, and I think a very inward

look here within the agency of how we approach this

important charter that we've been asked to follow on

behalf of the American people to explore and discover

on their behalf.

In each of these defining moments as well, our strength

and resolve as professionals has been tested, and

certainly that will be the case in this circumstance,

and it has been for these past seven months, to be

sure.
On February 1st, on the morning of that horrific

tragedy that befell the NASA families and the families

of the crew of Columbia, we pledged to the Columbia

families that we would find the problem, fix it, and

return to the exploration objectives that their loved

ones had dedicated their lives to.

The Board's effort and the report we received yesterday

completes the first of those commitments and does it in

an exemplary manner. They have succeeded in a very,

very thorough coverage of all the factors which caused

this accident and that led to this seminal moment,

which is marked by a tragic failure. And their

exceptional public service and their incredible

diligence in working through this very difficult task I

think will stand us in good stead for a long time to

come as we evaluate those findings and recommendations

as carefully as we know how.

As we begin to fulfill the second commitment that we

made to the families to fix the problems, the very

first important step in that direction is to accept
those findings and to comply with the recommendations,

and that is our commitment. We intend to do that

without reservation. This report is a very, very

valuable blueprint. It's a road map to achieving that

second objective, to fix the problem.

They've given us a head start in the course of their

discussions over the last several months and in the

course of their investigation, in the public testimony,

in their press conferences, in all of their commentary,

which has been very, very open in an extremely

inclusive process as they have wrestled with the

challenges of finding the problems that caused this

particular horrible accident.

And that candor, that openness, that release of their

findings and recommendations during the course of the

investigation has given us a very strong head start in

the direction of fulfilling that second commitment.

At this point, we have already developed a preliminary

implementation plan, and we will update that, and we're

about that process right now of updating to include all
the findings and recommendations included in the

report, in addition to those that were released and

described very specifically during the course of their

investigative procedures.

But, again, must as the Chairman, Admiral Hal Gehman,

observed throughout the course of those proceedings,

what we will read and what we did read as of yesterday

was precisely the same commentary that we had heard

during the course of their investigative activities and

in all of their public testimony that they've offered,

which has been considerable and, again, very extensive,

exhaustive.

So as we implement those particular findings and

recommendations, our challenge at this point will be to

choose wisely as we select the options that are

necessary to fully comply with each of those

recommendations. We'll continually improve and upgrade

that implementation plan in order to incorporate every

aspect of knowing what's in the report, but also so

much of what we have determined and seen as factors
that need improvement and consistent upgrading

throughout our own process within the NASA family.

It's going to be a long road in order to do that, but

it is necessary in order to fulfill that second

commitment we've made to the families.

Now, the report covers hardware failures, to be sure,

but it also covers human failures and how our culture

needs to change to mitigate succumbing to these

failings again. We get it. Clearly got the point.

There is just no question that is one of their primary

observations, that what we need to do, we need to be

focused on, is to examine those cultural procedures,

those systems, the way we do business, the principles

and the values that we adhere to as a means to improve

and constantly upgrade to focus on safety objectives as

well as the larger task before us of exploring and

discovering on behalf of the American people.

But they've been very clear in their statements

throughout the report in several instances,

repetitively, and in the public commentary that the

Chairman and members of the Board have offered
following their efforts yesterday after the release of

the report, that these must be institutional changes.

And that's what we're committed to doing, and that will

assure that over time those changes will be sustained,

as those process, procedures, and systems are altered

in order to reinvigorate the very strong ethos and

culture of safety and exploration, those dual

objectives that we have always pursued. That is what's

going to withstand the test of time if we are

successful in this effort, and we fully intend to be.

So we will go forward now and with great resolve to

follow this blueprint and do our best to make this a

much stronger organization. In the process of doing

so, it will involve the capacity and capability of all

of us within this agency. This is not about an

individual program. It's not about an individual

aspect or enterprise of what we pursue. It is about

everything we do throughout this agency. There is so

much of what has been observed in this report that

really has tremendous bearing and tremendous purpose in

defining everything we do throughout the agency. And

so, therefore, we will approach it and have considered
this to be an agencywide issue that must be confronted

in that regard.

Now, this is a very different NASA today than it was on

the 1st of February. Our lives are forever changed by

this tragic event, but certainly not nearly as much as

the lives of the Columbia families. This is forever

for them. And so that resolve to find the problem

which we have successfully done, thanks to the

extraordinary efforts on the part of this Board, to fix

those problems which we are now in pursuit of as the

second commitment, and to return to the exploration

objectives that their loved ones dedicated their lives

to is something we take as an absolute solemn promise.

We have to resolve and be as resolute and courageous in

our efforts as they have been in working through this

horrible tragedy.

The time that we have spent, I think, over the course

of since the accident, and certainly well before, in

trying to work through those particular questions,

again, are focused on institutional change. Since I

arrived a little less than a year and a half ago, we
have almost completely rebuilt the management team, and

so it is a new, fresh perspective in looking at a range

of challenges that we currently confront, and those

changes have been ongoing of a management team as well

as the institutional changes we have implemented and

will continue to do in full compliance with this

report.

The new management team began I think by evaluating

initially on the first day that I arrived here the

contingency planning effort that was necessary in the

event of such a tragedy. It was the first thing I did

on the first morning I arrived at this agency. And in

reviewing that contingency plan of how we would respond

to a disaster, to a tragic event, which I had hoped and

was in the expectation and fond hope that I would

never, ever have to utilize, we nonetheless improved

that contingency planning effort by doing two things:

First of all, reaching back to the Rogers Commission,

the Challenger incident and accident, to incorporate in

that contingency plan all the changes necessary in

order to respond definitively. 
The second step we went through was to specifically

benchmark it against best practices of any comparable

organization, of which there are very, very few. And

the only one that in my personal experience that I was

aware or felt had any direct comparability to the risks

and the stakes involved was the Navy nuclear program.

And so from that first day, we upgraded that particular

contingency plan based on the benchmarking procedures

that we followed through with them.

We then began a very vigorous effort by late spring,

early summer of last year to begin a comprehensive

benchmarking procedure against the submarine service as

well as the naval reactors community, to, again, pick

up best practices as well as to institutionally change

the way we do business. And that process is ongoing as

it had been a year ago as we continue to make those

changes.

That was a lesson I learned very specifically in my

tenure as Navy Secretary better than ten years ago, was

to look at those particular procedures and assure that
we have incorporated as much of that, and that was a

work in progress that will continue.

But, again, the observation by Admiral Gehman and the

members of the Board yesterday and replete throughout

the report, it is not about changing boxes or

individual faces in each of those positions. It is

about the longer-term institutional changes that must

be made. And, again, to that point we get it. It is

about the culture of this agency, and we all throughout

the agency view that as something that's applicable to

the entire agency, not any individual element thereof.

With that, I thank you again for the opportunity to get

together this morning and, again, look forward to your

questions and comments.

MR. MAHONE: Yes, sir?

QUESTION: Mr. Administrator, Matt Wald, New York

Times. There are other organizations that have gone

through this kind of change. Most have called for some

outside help. I'm tempted to ask if you're read Diane

Vaughn's book or called her up or if there are other
specialists in safety culture who you would be bringing

in at this time to help transform yourself, your

agency.

MR. O'KEEFE: I appreciate that. Yes, indeed, we have

read Dr. Vaughn's book, and there have been several

folks here in headquarters as well as Johnson who have

been in touch with her. Dr. Michael Greenfield spoke

to her I think initially about four months ago, three

months ago, shortly after her testimony before the

Columbia Accident Investigation Board's hearings.

The primary source of safety experts that we have been

trying to encourage and have requested come in to

assist with us, again, are from the naval reactors

community. This is a very specific set of procedures

they follow. It's a very exhaustive effort that they

have gone through over a comparable period of time as

the span of this agency, in order to upgrade their

procedures as a consequence of incidents in the early

phases of that program that gave them great pause. And

so there's a report that I think was released about a

month and a half ago which was the second step in that
benchmarking procedure with the submarine service,

which is the operational community, and the naval

reactors community, which is the disciplinaires, if you

will, over the technical requirements side, that we

continue to solicit.

Beyond that, there are certainly a number of folks that

we have invited in and will continue to do so. I spent

the better part of four hours last night with Admiral

Gehman and most of the members of the Board asking them

specifically for the folks that they had brought in as

advisers to the Board on this particular question so we

may be in contact with them in order to ask for their

advice and assistance and contributions in this regard

as we implement these recommendations on that front as

well. So, yes, we're about that as well.

MR. MAHONE: Keith?

QUESTION: Keith Cowing, Nasawatch.com. Yesterday you

read Gene Kranz's inspiring words that were issued to

his troops after another accident. And, you know, that

was then and this is now. You've got a workforce that

has been downsized, bought out, they're jaded by
innumerable management fads, and clearly it hasn't

worked.

I got an e-mail from somebody yesterday saying, "What's

he going to do, actually make us--write us on the white

board?" I mean, the cynicism is that high.

What are you going to do this time that is demonstrably

different than all these attempts before it, getting

the agency motivated and beyond the cynicism and

malaise that seems to have beset it?

MR. O'KEEFE: Well, it's going to require leadership at

every level. This is not something that you direct or

dictate. Again, in my experience, in my prior life as

the Navy Secretary confronted with an incident, an

event that really rocked that institution at that time,

when I came in in the post-Tailhook incident, it's not

about just walking around telling everybody shape up or

ship out. It really takes persistent, regular,

constant leadership focus, and I think the folks that

we have recruited and are in place now as the senior

management team that, again, have been over the course
of certainly this last seven months, to be sure, but

over the previous year, have been recruited to those

capacities specifically for that, are the kinds of

people, I think, who not only get it but also are going

to be the first start at that leadership objective.

Throughout the agency we're going to have to

persistently move through that, but I think it is

staying with a very set of clear principles and values

that we will continue to work through, and it's going

to take time, but the time begins right now. And it

has been in process, I think, for some period before

this, but we will continue to redouble our efforts of

that. But it's something that there is no one trick

pony at this. It is not something that happens simply

because I send out a memo. I'm not a Pollyanna on that

point at all. It is something that really requires, I

think, constant, unrelenting diligence, and that is

another theme that I think comes out very resolutely in

the Accident Investigation Board report, which is

consistency as well as persistence and vigilance in the

leadership direction in that regard. And that's what

we are committed to doing.
MR. MAHONE: Yes, sir?

QUESTION: Thank you. I'm Larry Wheeler with Gannett

News Service. I want to get back to the leadership

question a little bit. I was wondering if you could

share with us your thinking about how you motivate your

leaders to follow through on this point that you said

they get it.

Two weeks ago, one of your senior managers had a press

conference at Kennedy Space Center in which he, if I

understand--if I recollect correctly, he denied that

there was a culture in NASA or that he was aware that

there was a culture in NASA. And this is the same

senior manager who ran the Safety and Mission Assurance

Program throughout the '90s, which has been highly

criticized by the CAIB.

Can you give us your thinking? How do you turn around

that kind of thinking?
MR. O'KEEFE: Well, first of all, I think it's a--it's

always a challenge to define with common specificity to

which all accept of what the term "culture" means. And

in my experience, again, as Navy Secretary, there were

multiple cultures. There's the culture--there's a Navy

culture, to be sure, and a naval service ethos. But

there's also a surface sailor culture, an aviator's

culture, a submariner's culture. And then, just to

really get some extraordinary oomph into it, let's get

the Marine Corps involved. They're part of the Navy

Department as well. And the common distinctions

between those are born of years of history as well as

deep tradition.

It is also true here. There is every single aspect of

how this agency has formed over its 45 years and well

before when at the beginning of the last century the

NACA was formed to respond to aeronautics challenges at

that time that were to be advanced. Every one of the

centers, every one of the elements of what you see

throughout this agency, can reach back and trace

historical roots to each of those individual moments.
And so in that regard, there are lots of different ways

in which folks respond, but the overall, overarching,

overriding NASA culture for this agency overall is a

set of principles and discipline in order to pursue

safety of program consideration, which has always been

the case, in pursuit of those exploration objectives.

Those are the kinds of things we need to redouble, and,

again, as you define it very specifically in that

regard, there is importance that I think we get great

clarity of exactly what the definition is, and that's

the part we get. There is an overriding culture which

must dominate, and certainly we celebrate the history

and traditions of every aspect of this agency, much as

any other storied agency or institution does.

MR. MAHONE: Yes, sir?

QUESTION: Earl Lane with Newsday. A lot of what the

report spoke about on culture, though, I think dealt

with attitudes as much as institutions and talked about

how lower-level engineers were reluctant to come

forward with the concerns. And I'm wondering how you
deal with that to get that message out, and is it

perhaps time for a stand-down like the Navy sometimes

does?

MR. O'KEEFE: Well, it is--to be sure, that's one of

their findings and views, is that there is--there was

evidence that they saw, even in the course of their

investigation, in which reluctance dominated. And I

think part of that is--or the two things we've really

got to focus on in that direction is, first of all,

reinforce that principle, which, again, we articulate

regularly and I think we see evidence of all the time.

There was a stand-down in June through October of last

year in which an individual observed an anomaly on the

fuel line for Atlantis. There was a crack on the fuel

line that in turn stood down the fleet for that period

of four months as we ran that to parade rest and

determined exactly what the conclusions and solutions

needed to be. So we've got to, again, continually

identify that as the kind of behavior we want to

encourage, and to the extent we do not see it evidenced

or there is evidence in the opposite direction, to
assure that we motivate and encourage folks to feel

that sense of responsibility.

And that's the second part as well, is that there is, I

guess, a renewal of the view that I heard expressed

best by Leroy Cain, the Flight Director on STS-107, who

observed this is all of our responsibility. And so for

those who are part of this agency, we have to renew

that view, and for those we recruit to that have to

have it understand as the first principle that we all

must adhere to.

MR. MAHONE: Yes, Tracy?

QUESTION: Tracy Watson with USA Today. Administrator,

did you have any hints before the accident that you had

this kind of serious attitude and value problem at the

agency?

MR. O'KEEFE: Well, to be sure, there's always cases in

which there are folks who feel like there are certain

aspects of what has occurred in the course of our

history or in the course of events that are not as
advantageous as others. And so I've had a very open

policy of let's communicate whatever those concerns

are, let's have an open dialogue throughout the agency

on every matter. I've tried to be as open about that

to include encouraging e-mails, of which I get lots of

from lots of folks. So I've seen, I think, lots of

evidence of folks who are feeling, you know, very

empowered to offer their view and their concerns. And

at the same time, I think it's also evidence of the

fact that the process or the systems to permit that

discussion isn't happening at every level.

So there's two things you can draw from that that I

have taken away, which is those who feel that it's

necessary to respond in that regard really require

other means because the systems may have broken down.

So there is certainly some indicator of that, but

certainly this was a wake-up call in yesterday's report

to see how extensive that communications link that

contributed during the course of this mission and

operation needed to be improved to deal with precisely

that set of problems.
It wasn't for lack of people talking. It was for lack

of people, I think, coordinating those observations

effectively to serve up appropriate decisionmaking

about the challenges we were confronting at that time.

And I think that's--you know, the upside of that is

that there's ample evidence to suggest that folks are

feeling like there is an opportunity to communicate and

speak. It is also another question, though, of exactly

at what level can they do so, and I think that's the

point and the communications breakdown that is part of

the culture and is part of the observation that was

made by the Board, and the findings and recommendations

speak to that very effectively.

MR. MAHONE: Yes, ma'am?

QUESTION: Marsha Dutton, Associated Press. The Board

made--put quite a bit of emphasis on deadline pressure

affecting decisionmaking and even usurping safety, and

that this pressure came from on high. And you're up

there in the highness here, and I'm just wondering--

[Laughter.]
QUESTION: --do you feel some accountability also for

this accident since you've frequently made mention of

the February 2004 date?

MR. O'KEEFE: Absolutely. I feel accountable for

everything that goes on in this agency. That's a part

of the responsibility and accountability I think you

must accept in these capacities. No question about it.

The Board, I think, was very specific in observing that

schedules and milestone objectives and so forth are

important management goals in order to achieve

outcomes, and these are--this is an appropriate and

necessary way to go about doing business. But their

observation was that in this instance, this may have

influenced managers, may have begun to influence

managers to think in terms of different approaches in

order to comply. And in that regard, I think we have--

we've got to take great heart in the point that--and

stock in the point that in order to pursue such

appropriate management techniques and approaches in

order to establish goals, objectives, and milestones,

you must also assure that the checks and balances are
in place to guarantee that paramount, number one

objective, which is safety.

In the course of my tenure here, there was not a single

flight of a Shuttle that occurred when it was

scheduled. Not one. And so as a consequence of that,

I think the system has demonstrated the capacity to not

only establish what those objectives would be, but also

a capacity and a flexibility to adjust to those based

on the realities and the pressures that may exist at

the time.

Now, the fact that that, again, observed by the Board

as may have begun to influence a decision on the part

of managers was a very important observation and one

that we need to assure that, as we make these

institutional changes, that we adhere to the same

management principles of setting goals and objectives,

but at the same time assuring that the checks and

balances are in place they not override.

MR. MAHONE: Yes, sir?
QUESTION: Steven Young with spaceflightnow.com. You

said a few months ago that you warned NASA employees

this report was going to be ugly. I'm wondering: Was

it ugly? And what effect do you think it's going to

have on agency morale?

MR. O'KEEFE: Well, I think Admiral Gehman's

observation, when asked the same question yesterday,

was that, no, it's clinical and very straightforward.

And there is no question about that. It is a very

direct review. It is--again, the whole contingency

planning effort that we went through on the prospect

that something like this could happen ended up working

exactly--better than we could have ever anticipated in

that sense. That Board was activated that day. They

met for the first time at 5:00 p.m. on that afternoon.

So they were immediately about the business of

investigating, and in concert with that, there was--

there was nary a hint or suggestion that there was ever

any point throughout the course of this seven months in

which we sought to influence the outcome of that

result.
What we wanted was an unvarnished, straightforward

assessment from them, and we got that.

Now, I think the approach that we have talked about

among our colleagues here in the agency is that it

would be that straightforward approach, that that would

be that direct commentary, and then in the process of

reading through this, that we'd be deliberate about

following--accepting those findings and complying with

those recommendations in order to strengthen this

organization in the future. I think we've got a very

competent, very professional, extremely well considered

work that didn't, you know, spare anything in risking,

you know, the sensibilities or the emotions or

sentiments of anybody in this agency. And that's

exactly the way we expected it to be. That's what we

wanted it to be. And that's what we asked for them to

do. And they did it.

MR. MAHONE: We're going to take one more question

here, and then we're going to go to our centers, and

then we will come back here in just a few moments.

Kathy?
QUESTION: Kathy Sawyer, the Washington Post. Mr.

O'Keefe, the report pointed out that the schedule

leading up to next February was going to be as

challenging and fast-paced as the one that immediately

preceded the Challenger launch in 1986. Were you aware

of that? Did anybody come to you and say, hey, we're

pressing too hard? And what do you feel about that now

in light of events?

MR. O'KEEFE: Well, again, the scheduling and the

manifest, as it were, the milestones and so forth that

were set, was established by the Shuttle Program Office

and the International Space Station program management

at the request to specifically identify the optimum

systems engineering approach for deployment of all of

the components of the International Space Station. So

they laid out the schedule. They established what

those dates would be and milestone objectives would be.

And, again, in the course of my tenure, there was not a

single launch that occurred when it was actually

scheduled.
So I think the approach that we adhered to at the time,

as well as continue to, I think, is to always set what

our milestone objectives and goals, and clearly the

establishment of the core configuration of the

International Space Station was an objective that our

international partners looked to, Members of Congress,

all kinds of folks examined and viewed as one of the

seminal aspects that needed to be achieved in order to

permit then a wider debate of what that broader

composition or configuration of the International Space

Station could be. But you had to reach that point

first.

And so in dealing with that, the approach that the

International Space Station and the Shuttle Program

Office devised was that schedule for the optimum

engineering configuration necessary to do so, and the

operational considerations were factored into it. And,

again, at every single interval, at any point in which

there appeared to be any anomaly, the flight schedule

was adjusted, as it was for every single flight since

I've been here. There has not been one that flew on

the day on which the launch schedule dictated it
should. And that's, again, appropriate, necessary.

The stand-down that occurred from June to October of

last year was a direct consequence of that.

So all those factors, I think the paramount objective

that we continue to look to is the safety objective.

And, again, that's what the Board report points to, is

that the checks and balances really needed to be

reinforced, and we need to be mindful in the future

that those be in place as we use that appropriate

management tool, as they have identified it, of

establishing goals, objectives, and milestones.

MR. MAHONE: Sir, we're going to go to Stennis first,

so, Stennis Space Flight Center?

QUESTION: Hi, Administrator. This is Keith Darcy with

the Times-Picayune out of New Orleans. Can you say how

the return to flight process will affect the long-term

flight schedule of the Shuttle, and specifically the

production level at the external fuel tank plant in New

Orleans.
MR. O'KEEFE: I wouldn't speculate at this moment.

We've really--we've received the report yesterday, and

what we have put together, again, is an implementation

plan in its preliminary form based on everything that

the Board identified in its public statements and

commentary and in the written material they sent to us

as preliminary findings over the course of the last

several months.

Now we have the benefit of the entire report. We're

going to update and upgrade that implementation plan.

We hope to release that here in the next ten days to

two weeks so we can identify what those objectives are,

informed by the report. We also have a number of

factors and issues that we have identified within the

agency that need to be adjusted prior to return to

flight. And so as that unfolds in the weeks and months

ahead, we'll be able to establish exactly what it will

take in order to achieve that.

But, again, the paramount, overriding factor in this

case is going to be that we comply with those

recommendations, and when we are fit to fly, that's
when that milestone will be achieved on return to

flight.

MR. MAHONE: We'll go to Langley. Langley?

QUESTION: This is Dave Schlect with the Daily Press.

I have a question about the Safety Center being

developed here at Langley. One of the Board's

recommendations is to establish an independent

technical engineering authority that would be the sole

waiver-granting authority for all technical standards.

It would decide what is and what is not an anomalous

event and would independently verify launch readiness.

How might the new NASA Engineering and Safety Center

fulfill this recommendation?

MR. O'KEEFE: Well, we're sorting through that right

now. The initial charter of the Safety Center has been

formulated. As a matter of fact, Brian O'Connor is

there at Langley today, working with General Roy

Bridges, the Center Director at Langley, and others in

order to begin working through the findings and
recommendations of this report and how it will affect

how we should adjust the charter of the NASA

Engineering and Safety Center.

The approach that is identified--and, again, we spent a

lot of time last night talking to Admiral Gehman and

his colleagues on the board--of exactly how we may

consider various approaches here, and they were more in

the listening mode of what that could be, because,

again, they have not been dispositive about which

options we should select other than to, again,

reiterate that the recommendations are to, again,

establish that independent technical authority for the

control of requirements of the Space Shuttle Program.

And that's a factor of whether or not that's part of

the Engineering and Safety Center, which, frankly,

could serve as more of a research and development,

testing, trend analysis kind of center and an

organization that can come in to regularly examine what

our processes and procedures are with a fresh set of

eyes all the time, and to have the influence during the

course of operational activities to identify cases

where they see anomalies that have some historical or
trend assessment to it, that's the issue that we've

really got to sort through, is whether or not you have

both of those capacities inherent in the same

organization or whether it should be two separate

functions.

In the time ahead, very short time ahead, that's, you

know, the set of options we really need to sort through

in order to comply with those recommendations, which I

think are solid.

MR. MAHONE: Next would be the Glenn Research Center.

QUESTION: Mr. Administrator, Paul Winovsky (ph) from

WOIO Television. I'm working on an assumption here

that there's a backlog of science waiting to fly once

safety concerns are handled. How will you go about

prioritizing what flies in the payloads. For example,

the combustion experiment developed here (?) was

destroyed on the last mission. Is the pipeline full?

And how will you prioritize what goes into space next?
MR. O'KEEFE: That's a very good question. There are

two approaches we're going to use to this. The first

one is that if you go to the Kennedy Space Center

today, the payload processing facility and all the

International Space Station program elements that have

arrived are stacked up in sequence and are being tested

and checked out for deployment at the--as soon as the

resumption of flight occurs. So there will be not a

lot of confusion about exactly what that sequence will

be. It's going to follow the pattern that, again, fits

that optimum systems integration, engineering strategy

that is best for the production--construction of the

International Space Station to reach the core

configuration.

The science component will be drawn from an effort that

we conducted through last summer and early fall, not

quite a year ago, which was an effort to prioritize

what the science performance will be aboard the

International Space Station. We had a blue-ribbon

panel of external scientists representing every single

scientific discipline who came in to specifically

organize what that priority sequence is. Until that
time, it was a collection of priorities from every

discipline, all of which ranked number one. And so

when everything is number one, that means nothing is

number one.

So what the Board--what was referred to the re-map

effort did last summer and fall that organized that

prioritization set actually had a rank order that began

with the number one and moved through by sequence, two,

three, four, and five, and so that is the sequence in

which we will organize the Space Station scientific

objectives from this point forward, because that is the

primary source of all the scientific microgravity

experimentation that will be carried out in the future,

is aboard the International Space Station. So we'll

adhere to that blueprint very carefully.

MR. MAHONE: Sir, we have a question at the Kennedy

Space Center.

QUESTION: Mr. O'Keefe, this is Jay Barbee with NBC

News. In talking with the workers here and in Houston,

I'm finding they are very encouraged with you at the
helm. They believe at this time in NASA's history that

you are the right man for the job.

Now, they're encouraged by your honesty and your

willingness to admit NASA's mistakes. But their

concern is still communications. It has been stifled,

and many with safety concerns have been intimidated

into silence, in fear of losing their jobs.

Can you today reassure any NASA or contractor employee

if they speak up with safety concerns, even to members

of the press, that they won't be fired, that they won't

suffer setbacks in their careers?

MR. O'KEEFE: Absolutely. We get it, and that's what

message has been transmitted and understood by every

single leader and senior official in this agency, is

that we need to promote precisely that attitude. So

the answer is absolutely, unequivocally yes.

MR. MAHONE: Johnson Space Center?
QUESTION: Gina Treadgold with ABC News. Sir, you've

said you take responsibility. Do you plan to step down

as a result of this? Or do you feel any pressure to

resign?

MR. O'KEEFE: Well, certainly I serve at the pleasure

of the President of the United States, and I will

adhere to his judgment always on any matter, including

that one. And so, no, there is nothing that in my mind

transcends that requirement, and I intend to be guided

by his judgment in that regard.

MR. MAHONE: Marshall Space Flight Center?

QUESTION: Shelby Spires with the Huntsville Times.

Given that the Board suggests that the external tank be

blown with no foam loss, and engineers say this isn't

possible, is NASA prepared to redesign the tank without

foam and go to Congress to ask for the money to do

this?

MR. O'KEEFE: We'll see. I mean, there may be an

option down the road in which will be selecting to do
something along those lines. Don't know. But the

approach that I think very clearly articulated

yesterday by the Accident Investigation Board

membership was that there--just based on the current

configuration and the safety considerations, the issue

of foam loss per se is not something they find as being

totally disqualifying.

What they do find to be a problem and what was a

contributor, to be sure, a causal effect based on what

is the likely condition of what occurred in that first

81 seconds, was the departure of the bipod ramp from

the--insulation from the external tank which struck the

leading edge of the orbiter. That's the part that

already we have eliminated as a factor that's going to

be heating segments around that area to act as, instead

of the insulation, so you will not find an insulated

bipod ramp at that point on the external tank in the

future.

Exactly how much further that's going to need to go,

that's one of the things that I think in the report

they said very specifically we ought to aggressively
develop a program to eliminate departure of any debris

of insulation coming off the external tank. And that's

the part that has already been tasked and that Bill

Readdy, as part of the return to flight effort, has

already charged our external tank management team over

to look at. So we'll be looking to the results of that

view, and all the options are on the table. We'll see

what comes.

MR. MAHONE: We'll take two more questions from the

centers, and then we'll come back here to headquarters,

and we'll go to Dryden.

QUESTION: Mr. Administrator, this is Jim Steen with

the L.A. Daily News. I was wondering if the folks at

NASA are looking at the possibility of bringing Shuttle

landings back to Edwards Air Force Base as a safety

precaution. And I also wanted to know what role, if

any, that Dryden Palmdale facility will have in your

return to space operations.

MR. O'KEEFE: Well, in terms of the option of landing

at Edwards, to be sure, that is an option we've always
exerted and used anytime the weather conditions don't

permit a return to the Kennedy Space Center in Florida.

So we'll continue to do that, and anytime there is a

condition which would dictate that we land on the west

coast, that's exactly what we'll do.

The challenge thereafter, once landing at Edwards, is

to transport the orbiters across country, and that's

something that, again, one of the quality assurance and

risk management challenges of dealing with the Shuttle

orbiters, is the more you touch it and the more you

fiddle with it, the more likely is the prospect that

you can damage it. And every time we do that, it gets

more and more difficult to sort with, because, again,

it's always launched from Cape Canaveral at the Kennedy

Space Center.

So, yes, Edwards will always be an option, and it's one

that we are not deterred by that challenge if there are

factors that dictate the consideration of landing

there.
In terms of the Dryden Center, there is no question

that the flight operations activities that are

continuing to go on there that cover a wide range of

different supporting efforts that we go through for

unmanned aerial vehicles for the Defense Department,

for a wide range of different programs, no question we

will continue to see that activity unabated there. And

as circumstances dictate, there may be further flight

test requirements that we would conduct there in

support of return to flight activities for the Shuttle.

MR. MAHONE: We're having some technical difficulties

at JPL, so we'll come back to headquarters. And, Mr.

Administrator, if I could start off with Bill Harwood,

we'll start with Bill.

QUESTION: Thanks, Glenn. Bill Harwood, CBS News.

Well, just looking ahead to 114, I think the previous

questioner was probably asking you about overflight to

land at Edwards versus Kennedy, just for the record.

My question: Looking at 114, are you committed to not

flying that flight until you have both a tile repair
capability and an on-orbit RCC repair capability,

realizing that it's the RCC that's obviously the long

pole in the tent right now.

MR. O'KEEFE: Well, there's no question. The report

very specifically divides the findings and

recommendations into those areas which must be complied

with prior to return to flight. We intend to take that

with absolute conviction, no doubt about it, and we're

committed to doing that.

Among them is the point of an on-orbit repair capacity,

and that's the range of options, because it could cover

a wide set of circumstances. We've got to look at what

is a responsible set of options in order to provide

that repair capacity, and those are the things we're

looking at right now as weighing all those options to

figure out what's the most appropriate course on that.

But it's one of the requirements within the--or what we

view as a requirement within the report as a

recommendation that must be complied with prior to

return to flight, and we intend to adhere to that.
MR. MAHONE: Mike?

QUESTION: Mike Cabbage with the Orlando Sentinel. One

of the things the Board made pretty clear in their

report was that they have a concern that after you

implement cultural changes, that NASA will sort of

backslide the way that it did after the Rogers

Commission.

What can you do to make sure that cultural changes you

put in place now will still be in effect 5, 10, 15

years from now?

MR. O'KEEFE: That's a point that we really have spent

a lot of time. Again, last night the Board was

generous with their time for several hours in sorting

through, and that dominated the discussion in many

ways, and they were consistent and repetitive in their

responses to this, which is it can't be personality

dependent. It's got to be a set of institutional

changes that will withstand any change in leadership

and management and so forth, and it's got to be a set
of principles and values that are reiterated regularly

that then become institutionalized.

So, I mean, the measure of that is going to be, I

think, over time if we see a real change in the mindset. But, importantly, I'm very mindful of the

observations that several have made in the public,

which is, yes, we've heard this before, and, yes,

they've pledged to do these things. No question,

that's a very clear criticism.

All I can offer is I wasn't here at that time, and a

lot of folks who were in senior management and

leadership positions were not in those capacities at

that time either. So we've got to move forward with

the objective of adhering to what the Board has said,

which is to be sure that it not turn on just the

individual personalities involved, but instead become

an institutional set of values and disciplines that

will withstand that test of time. And that's going to

be the real measure. It's something that, again, the

jury's out. We'll see how far that goes, and I'm
certain, I'm absolutely certain that you will be the

judge of that.

MR. MAHONE: Frank?

QUESTION: Frank Sitzen (ph) with Aerospace America.

Among the Board's report--recommendations yesterday was

that the Space Shuttle be replaced as soon as possible.

Admiral Gehman expressed his concern that there wasn't

at least a design candidate on the drawing boards, he

said.

Given that, are you looking afresh at when and under

what circumstances to retire the Shuttle? And what

kind of mix of systems do you propose to do so with?

MR. O'KEEFE: Well, it's exactly one of the charges

that is now slightly over 24 hours old that we do, so

maybe I could--if I could ask you for another hour or

two to get through that analysis, it would be helpful.

But we are trying, I think, to sort through exactly

what the implications would be there of a range of

alternatives.
The Board--what I read and what I saw in the report was

very specific in saying that if there is an extension

of the Shuttle operations beyond the beginning of the

next decade, it must be recertified. And so

establishing what those recertification requirements

would be is part of what I read also to be one of their

recommendations and findings, that we establish exactly

how we would go about doing that, so that you make

those judgments today so that later, when those

decisions are made by all of our successors, that there

not be just matters of convenience taken at the time to

determine what the recertification requirements would

be. So that's an aspect we've got to think about now

in anticipation of tomorrow.

And, finally, the approach we have pursued as a

consequence of the President's amendment to last year's

program submitted in November of last year to, as part

of the integrated space transportation plan, is to

begin an effort for a crew transfer vehicle that is

focused on crew transfer capacity as a supplement to

that capability that we have used for both crew
transfer as well as heavy-lift cargo assets on the

Shuttle.

And so we're pursuing that. There is a very aggressive

effort right now to be very specific and very

deliberate about a very limited number of requirements,

and I think we have followed through on what the Board

observation on that point is, which is to make sure

that those requirements are very straightforward and

not so extensive that it requires either an invention,

a suspension of the laws of physics, or the use of what

Admiral Gehman referred to last night as a material

referred to as "unobtanium" in the effort of trying to

put together the alternative. So make sure it's

realistic, is something that is technically doable now,

and that is the set of very limited requirements that

we have put together for a crew transfer vehicle that

is the orbital space plane configuration.

So we'll see what the results from the creative juices

and innovation of the industry will be here in the

weeks and very short months to follow.
MR. MAHONE: Debra?

QUESTION: I'm Debra Zabarenko. I work for Reuters.

You've got a lot of big challenges contained in this

report, but for safety concerns, you can go to safety

experts and systems analysts. For organizational

problems, you can go to the folks who are expert there.

But one thing the report said that NASA needs and does

not now have is the kind of urgent mission that it had

during the Cold War years. Are you going to be looking

to the White House, to Congress? Where are you going

to go for guidance on dealing with what seems to be one

of the biggest underlying problems that the report

remarked on?

MR. O'KEEFE: Absolutely. Again, as I mentioned at the

very opening of my comments here this morning, in each

of these events of great success and great tragedy it

has been always attendant thereafter with a very

extensive national policy debate. And sometimes that

national policy debate has resulted in a set of

objectives that are identified, and in other cases it

has been unsatisfying.
Our anticipation is this next national debate coming is

one that we hope and we certainly plan for it to be a

satisfying result. And how that sorts its way out

between our colleagues within the administration as

well as in Congress, and certainly the general public,

is going to be a question that in the time ahead--and

Congress has--the committees of jurisdiction have

planned a set of very aggressive, very extensive public

hearings in the weeks ahead that I expect will spark

that debate. And the answer to your question I think

will be resolved from that set of policy debates that

will be shortly coming.

QUESTION: Do you agree with the report's estimation

that that is something that NASA doesn't have right

now, an urgent sense of mission?

MR. O'KEEFE: Nothing comparable to what drove us as a

nation with the threat of the prospect of thermonuclear

war by a bipolar, you know, opponent on the other side

of this globe that existed in the early 1960s. No, we
don't have anything nearly as earth-shattering in that.

Thank God.

MR. MAHONE: Frank?

QUESTION: Frank Moring with Aviation Week. Another

thing that the space program needs is money, and

there's been some bad news lately from the--most

recently from the Congressional Budget Office.

What is your assessment of the budget prospects for the

space program as this national debate gets underway?

And, also, what do you see as the cost of meeting--in

rough terms, of meeting the Gehman recommendations?

MR. O'KEEFE: Again, I would not even speculate on what

the national debate that will occur over the federal

budget proposals would yield. That's going to be in

the time ahead as well. That's happening currently. I

think you pointed that very succinctly.

As a member of this administration, we certainly are

going to be valuing and evaluating those particular
consequences in the context of what is necessary to

proceed forward with compliance with these

recommendations and what resource requirements we'll

have. And certainly that debate will continue and will

go on inside the administration as well as within the

Congress. And so the results of that will be known in

due time.

In terms of what it's going to cost for us to

implement, again, if you give me another hour on top of

the one that I asked from Frank to figure out what the

cost is beyond just evaluating a report 24 hours old,

we might be able to get back to you. But at this

juncture, I wouldn't even put an estimate or a price

tag on that at this juncture.

MR. MAHONE: Okay. Brian?

QUESTION: Brian Berger with Space News. One of the

points that the report made is that NASA has exhibited

a tendency to bite off more than it can chew, have more

ambition than budget.
Can you fix Shuttle, can you complete Station, and

undertake an ambitious effort like Project Prometheus

on the same schedule that you've laid out so far?

MR. O'KEEFE: Well, again, this is not a new

observation, is your point. It's one that was very

clearly driven home to me in the course of my

confirmation hearings, as a matter of fact, a year and

a half ago by several Members of Congress, that we have

had a history of trying to do too much with too little

or not prioritizing sufficiently. And there are

several different ways to go about looking at

technology management. One is what is commonly

referred to within, I think, the technology sector kind

of approach, which is put a lot out there and let a

thousand flowers bloom. And the ones that do come up

and the ones that are considered to be of greatest

value, those are the ones you pursue.

Well, maybe that's the closest comparable management

approach of technology that was pursued within this

agency in the past. Upon my arrival here, in fairly

short order we established that there were three

mission objectives: understanding and protecting the
home planet, exploring the universe and searching for

life, and inspiring that next generation of explorers.

And if it doesn't fall in those three mission

categories, it doesn't belong here--not because it

isn't a neat thing to do or would be interesting or

whatever else.

So in the course of the past year-plus, we've been

really going through the process of winnowing down what

are the programs that really participate and contribute

to those three mission objectives very succinctly, and

those that are neat ideas and good things to do, well,

we try to find some other home for them somewhere else,

but not here, because we're trying to be very

disciplined and very selective about what we do. We've

got to continue that effort and be more deliberate

about it in the future, I think, in finding those

efforts that fall within those categories.

In terms of the very specific example that you cited of

Project Prometheus and developing power generation and

propulsion capabilities, that is something that comes

right into our wheelhouse of the kinds of things we
need to be doing, and it marks the technology kind of

prowess of this agency that it's been known for four

decades, which is to overcome those technical obstacles

in order to achieve the next set of exploration

objectives.

And so that is there in the program. It's fully

financed. You know, the money that's required and the

resources necessary in order to do so have been

approved within our administration, have been offered

to Congress for their consideration. And we're

underway with that effort because that's one of the

serious long poles in the tent to pursuing future

exploration objectives. And so that one fits very,

very precisely within those three mission categories,

without reservation or equivocation.

MR. MAHONE: Mark?

QUESTION: Thank you. Mark Carreau (ph) from the

Houston Chronicle. I think I have a question and a

follow-up, if that's okay.

What do you contemplate--
MR. O'KEEFE: How can you have a follow-up when you

haven't heard the answer yet?

[Laughter.]

MR. O'KEEFE: Sorry. Go ahead.

QUESTION: Okay.

MR. O'KEEFE: Pardon me. I didn't mean to be flip.

QUESTION: That's okay, sir. Thank you. What do you

contemplate doing or saying to your managers and

workforce to explicitly uncouple schedule pressure to

build the Space Station from the Shuttle recovery?

MR. O'KEEFE: Well, let me take the first part of that

because I'm not sure--Shuttle recovery, do you mean

return to flight?

QUESTION: Yes, sir.
MR. O'KEEFE: Okay. I'm sorry. Again, the point that

I think was very clearly enunciated in the report that

resonated with me is that this may have begun to

influence the program manager's view of how you proceed

to meet milestone objectives. Again, that's a useful,

very valuable management tool that has to establish

goals. It's a leadership principle. You have to have

folks--again, it's part of the point that was raised in

several other questions earlier, too, that you have to

have goals, you have to have objectives, you have to

enunciate what they are and when you intend to achieve

them. That's part of any other aspect of what we do.

The really profound point, I think, that the Board

raised was that there was some mixed signal,

miscommunication of that point, of which was more

dominant. And so the checks and balances must be

established, and they were very clear on that point

repetitively in their--in every part of the report,

that what we need to do is establish institutionally an

ethos, a set of values, a discipline that really

encourages folks to have an open communications loop,
to express when they believe something to be not safe

at that time to proceed with.

Now, that may not rule the day. It may not be, well,

in that case, since you've simply asserted it, it must

be so. There really is a case in which we've got to

demonstrate that it is safe, and that's a very

different approach that now the burden of proof, I

think, has to be reiterated in that direction as well.

So as we move through this, establishing what those

institutional checks and balances will be, and part--I

think the answer to that one in this particular

instance is assuring that that communication loop is

very open and that there is resolution to each of the

objectives or objections heard so that everybody is

heard and that crisp decisions are made thereafter in

terms of how to serve it up and follow through from

there.

Once you've heard it, your follow-up?

QUESTION: Yes, my follow-up is: Do you need the

flexibility to deal with the Russians, contract with

the Russians, or whatever, to give you this time so
that you have the supplies aboard the Station? And how

do you deal with your international partners'

expectations of having their equipment aboard, that

there's commitments made even above your level to try

to do that that you have to respond to? And I'm

wondering how you deal with the workforce, but also

deal with that issue.

MR. O'KEEFE: That's a very important question and one

that we've taken extremely seriously. But I'm very,

very impressed with the response of our international

partners and their capacity to really act like partners

in an International Space Station effort. This is an

endeavor pursued by 16 nations, and they have responded

very, very definitively.

So in working through all those issues, as recently as

a month ago I met with all the heads of agencies of the

International Space Station partnership, and we worked

through all of the challenges that, as we sort through

the months ahead and anticipate return to flight, that

there be a lot of obligations and commitments. We're

going to continue to look to them and to us to honor as
we work through this. And we have--I've got a very

clear understanding with them, and they have been

really just exemplary in the manner in which they've

done that.

So I have--we've all taken a part of the responsibility

of this, and we all view this as a partnership

challenge. This is not something which they say, you

know, to the United States, "What are you going to do

to help us out today?" No. They've been very

forthcoming in terms of their approach and accepting

their piece of the partnership responsibility in doing

this. It's been commendable.

MR. MAHONE: We're going to go right here.

QUESTION: Mr. O'Keefe, Peter King, with CBS News

Radio.

Yesterday, we read the report, of course, and there

were lines in there that expressed pessimism that NASA

would be able to change, and in an interview after the

report was issued, Admiral Gehman told my colleague,
Bill Harwood, that some are or will be in denial about

the changes needed and the flaws in the system.

What message have you or will you send to those

particular people at NASA?

MR. O'KEEFE: Well, again, and this is reminiscent of

some of the earlier comments that we have shared here,

this is tough stuff, and we shouldn't be a bit

surprised when engineers, and technical folks and all

of the rest of us as colleagues here in NASA act like

all other human beings doing, which is, when you hear

something, it really is tough, and it's hard to accept

that it takes a little effort to work through it. And

that's exactly what we've been really endeavoring to do

in the last few months here is just kind of steeling

ourselves for what we asked for, which was an

unvarnished position, a very direct report, take off

the gloves and let us know what's wrong.

We didn't ask Admiral Gehman and his colleagues to tell

us what's so right about this place. I mean, that's

something that has, you know, again, been widely viewed

as "overthought" of. We got that point.
The issue is we really wanted to know, in a very clear,

distinctive way, exactly what they thought was flawed

about the way we do business, what caused this

accident, what were the contributing factors, all of

the other things that may go to it, and they complied

with that, and they did it with great skill, and it

could--I can't imagine what the deliberations among the

Board members must have been over these past several

months.

Trying to get 13 very, very smart, very thoughtful,

very Type A people to come to closure on a set of views

could not have been an easy task. And you can see that

they really worked through some very differing

approaches that ultimately came to a very crisp set of

conclusions. So I think that's something we've got to

work through, and this is part of the process we've

been engaged in for the last few months is kind of

strapping ourselves in for the fact this was going to

be an unvarnished view and a very clinical, direct,

straightforward position, and it has been.
We got what we asked for, and there's no question that

we now need to go about the process of all of the steps

that it takes in order to accept those findings and to

comply with those recommendations, and that's a

commitment we're not going to back off of.

QUESTION: Todd Halvorson of Florida Today.

Now that you have had the CAIB report for 25 hours, and

given the fact that you've gotten a good head start on

your return-to-flight activities, what are your

thoughts now about your ability to make that March

through April window for return to flight next year,

and what are your thoughts about when you can get to

core complete?

MR. O'KEEFE: Well, the answer to both is we'll see.

From the technical hardware standpoint, all of the

assessments we've gone through here in the last couple

three months are there are a number of options that

would certainly permit an opportunity after the new

year to look at a return-to-flight set of objectives,

and we've reviewed those with the Board. They're aware

of that activity, and that's underway.
The larger questions I think that are raised in this

report, too, that deal with some of the management

systems, the processes, the procedures, the, again, the

culture of how we do business, we really have to set

this bar higher than what they did, what anybody would

do. The standards that we are expecting of ourselves,

we need to be our toughest critics on that. And so

those are going to be a little more difficult to I

think assess in terms of a calendar or a time line, in

terms of when they're done, and instead I think it's

going to be a case where, when we've made the judgment

that we are fit to fly, that's when it's going to

occur.

Now, we're not going to just do this in isolation or a

vacuum. We've asked a very impressive group of 27

folks who are part of the Tom Stafford and Dick Covey's

Return-to-Flight Task Group to help us work through

those options and assure that we're not just, you know,

drinking our own bath water on this or singing

ourselves to sleep on the options we love the most, you

know.
It's a case where we really want to lay out the full

range of things we're going to do and have their

assessment of whether they think that passes the sanity

check. And that group of folks, I would suggest to

you, if you haven't had the opportunity to do so, to

look at the varied backgrounds that those 27 people

bring, not only the technical and engineering and I

think smart folks on the hard sciences side, but also a

lot of management experts, a lot of folks who have

dealt with large organizations, dealt with culture

change.

Walter Broadnax, who was the deputy secretary in the

last administration for the Health and Human Services,

is a member of that. He is now the president of Clark

Atlanta University. This is a guy who has been through

several different organizational shifts working for the

State of New York, working for the last administration

at HHS, and so forth, dealing with very large

organizations, understanding management culture change

requirements.
Richard Danzig, who was the last Secretary of the Navy

in the last administration, as well, was a member of

this.

Ron Fogleman, who was the Chief of Staff of the Air

Force, who really set some standards in the Khobar

Tower incident over what accountability standards

should be adhered to within the Air Force, is a member

of this group.

So if you work through every one of those, what you

find are folks that aren't just--or I shouldn't say

"just"--it's not dominated by a group of folks looking

strictly at the engineering-hardware kinds of

challenges. It's also looking at these larger systems

process changes, and those are the kind of folks that

have been added to this, including a number of

academics who have written about it, and thought about

it, and worked through it like Dr. Vaughn and others,

colleagues of hers, who have really looked at

organization change issues and, in turn, are going the

help us really think through this.
And they've been there, done that, gotten several Tshirts and recognized lots of tendencies on the part of

organizations or institutions to select options that

may or may not be more or less convenient. They're

going to be good sanity checkers as we work through

that, and those are the kinds of people I think that

their judgment will be invaluable as we work up to that

inevitable return-to-flight milestone.

MR. MAHONE: And the complete list of those members are

at www.nasa.gov. You can go to that and find their

bios and so forth.

A question right here.

QUESTION: Jim Oberg with NBC.

I'd like to ask a question on culture and the issues of

intellectual isolation of the NASA community from the

outside world. The Board and other people have

mentioned words, from the Board example, selfdeception, introversion, diminished curiosity about the

outside world, NASA's history of ignoring external

recommendations.
These are some pretty serious charges, and people have

seen evidence of it. The Board did and other people

have mentioned it, too. You have a situation where

people who are here now are almost hunkering down into

a siege mentality, where outside critics are cold and

timid souls whose views should be ignored.

How can you get the people to become what the Board

wants you to be, a learning organization like that,

when many of the same people who have been immersed in

this culture for all of their working lives are the

ones designing, developing and judging the success of

your recovery process?
MR. O'KEEFE: Again, you have accurately recited

what are the findings of the Board and their

overarching view of what they have deemed or

viewed to be the culture within the agency.

The first step in any process is to accept the

findings and to comply with those recommendations,

and I think Admiral Gehman had been very fond of

saying to the Board, "T equals zero," zero meaning

anything that happened after February 1st is not

something they're looking at. They're really

focused on examining that.

Well, to NASA today, T equals zero starts today,

and we've really got to work our way through

accepting those findings and complying with those

recommendations and that will be the beginnings I

think of sorting our way through these larger

institutional challenges. I think the questions

and comments and observations made by your

colleagues here, as well as in my statements at

the opening of this, suggest we've got to being

that process and work with what is a very
professional group of folks throughout this

agency, who I think can step up and accept those

responsibilities, and we all have, in working

through this, and recognizing that this is a

institutional set of failures that must be

addressed.

I don't see that the reticence on the part of any

individual in this agency is going to be a setback

in that regard. We've just got to work through

that very methodically, very deliberately, very

consistently, and employing a principle of the

United States Marine Corps that I always found to

be pretty pointed, which is "repeated rhythmic

insult." If you always say the same thing, and

you mean it, and you keep going at it, and you

stick with that set of principles and values and

discipline, it's going to resonate in time, and in

time means sooner rather than later in order for

us to really reconcile and come to grips with

these findings, and accept them, and comply with

those recommendations.

MR. MAHONE: Question, here.
QUESTION: Bill Glanz, Washington Times. I just

want to find out what your gut reaction was while

you were reading that part. For instance, were

you appalled at some of the decisions that the

program managers made, and also, when you were

reading it, did you have any "holy crap" moments?

[Laughter.]

MR. O'KEEFE: I've had so many of those since

February 1st I can't count them all any more.

Again, this was not a surprise. Among the

emotions that I felt in reading through this,

surprise was not among them, because again, they

were very faithful in what they said they would

do. Admiral Gehman and every member of that Board

were very, very clear in the course of their

proceedings of saying, "What we're telling you and

what we're inquiring about in these public

hearings is what you will read in this report."

Very explicit about that. They never walked away

from that point. Again, talking about repeated

rhythmic insult, that was, a repetitive commentary
that they followed through on and did precisely

what they said they were going to do.

So in reading through this, and again, our

approach from day one, from the 1st of February

on, was again to be as open as we possibly could

conceive of being, release all of the information

for everybody to see what was going on. So

reading lots of the discourse and back and

forthing and communication that went on that are

now faithfully repeated in the report, was not the

first time I'd read them, because we released them

a lot here, and they talked about them a lot in

the hearings, and so in the course of this, I

think the terminology they used was very

consistent with what I heard in the course of all

those public hearings.

And after 22, 23 hearings that lasted on average

three-and-a-half to four hours each, that was a

lot of volume. So really, distilling all of that

and coming up with a report that was as succinct

as this is, that it was only 248 pages by

comparison to the thousands of pages of
transcripts from all those hearings, was really

the part that I found most impressive, was they

were able to distill this into a very pointed set

of findings and recommendations.

But surprise was not among them, and there was

nothing that I saw there that they had not

previously talked about. They were very, very

conscientious about following through on that

commitment and they did what they said they were

going to do.

QUESTION: [Off microphone] -- appalled by some

of the decisions that the program managers made,

you know, being pressured by the long schedule,

and all the missed opportunities that they

mentioned in the report?

MR. O'KEEFE: Again, I mean the course of this.

There have been countless hearings that I've been

a witness at. There have been lots of different

opportunities where we have gotten together among

your colleagues in the press corps to discuss

several of the events as we've walked through this
in the last seven months. At each one of those

there were plenty of cases in which you said,

gosh, how could this have happened? But there's

no question. None of it was a new revelation in

that regard. It has been all by degrees over time

in these last six, seven months, you know, rolling

out and laying out in ways that we have really

seen institutionally as well as with the hardware,

as well as human failures were that led to this.

By all means, they are a guidepost to figuring

out exactly how you improve that communicate net,

sharpen the decision-making process that informs,

decision-making that includes all the information

that's necessary to make those kinds of judgments

at the time, and I think that's exactly what we

saw come out of this.

QUESTION: Chris Stolnich from Bloomberg News. I

was just wondering if you could describe what you

believe the goals for manned space flight are in

the wake of this report, and how or if they should

change?
MR. O'KEEFE: We are, and have always been,

dedicated to exploration objectives which in some

instances require a multitude of different

capabilities, to include human intervention. What

we've laid out is a strategy, a stepping stone

approach in which we conquer each of the technical

and technology limitations as we pursue greater

opportunities. Calls for a sequence of

capabilities, which we see playing out right now.

In early January we're going to see two Rovers

land on the planet Mars, and it will follow, as it

did, several other missions that preceded this, in

order to collect and gather the information and

the knowledge necessary to inform the opportunity

for human exploration at some point.

And as we prepare those capabilities to proceed,

we have a more complete knowledge of precisely

what it is we're going to encounter, and what will

be garnered and gathered from that set of missions

and those that will follow, which are robotic,

will inform that decision making and inform that
understanding and judgment about exactly how human

exploration thereafter could be permissible.

The second phase of it though is an important

one, because your question I think also speaks to

the immediacy of instances and cases in which

human involvement is imperative in order to

preserve capacity.

Today there's a spirit of debate that's going on,

that again, I commend you all for having covered

rather broadly, of exactly what is going to be the

service life of the Hubble telescope. Just

launched on Monday the SIRTF infrared telescope

that will be a companion to Hubble, if you will,

for all the infrared lower temperature

observations and readings that could be observed

by that imagery.

But recall that the history of Hubble--which I

have not seen very extensively discussed in all

the coverage of the current debate about how long

Hubble should be operational and what servicing

missions are necessary--the history of that was,
your predecessors 10 years ago roundly viewed the

deployment of that capability as a piece of $1

billion space junk, because it couldn't see. The

lens needed correction. It required a Lasikequivalent surgery. And the only way that could

be done was by human intervention. So in 1993

when that mission was launched to correct the

Hubble, that was done successfully, and the only

way it could be done was because a human being,

several of them, spent many, many months training

to be prepared for making those corrections on the

spot, and for every contingency that could arise

as you work through it. It was nothing we could

do, adjust from the ground.

The last round trip flight of the Columbia in

March of 2002 was to the Hubble again to service

it, to install new gyros, to install an infrared

camera, to upgrade a number of different factors

to it that improved its capacity by a factor of

10, according to all the astronomers who observed

this, and they are just elated over the quality of

what has come back from this. And yet it turned

out that the primary human characteristic that was
so important on that mission was embodied by a

gent who will be joining us here in about a month,

or a matter of fact, weeks--I'm losing track of

days here--Dr. John Grunsfeld, who will be our

Chief Scientist, and relieving Dr. Shannon Lucid,

as she goes back to Johnson Space Center, as our

Chief Scientist.

He was on that mission. He's an astrophysicist,

got all kinds of incredible scientific background.

But his primary human characteristic trait that

was most valuable proved to be that all the

instruments for adjustment on the Hubble telescope

are on the left-hand side. So rather than having,

like many of us--righties are stuck with the

problem or reaching around the front of your face

with a catcher's mitt equivalent capacity to

adjust things, and a big bubble over year head,

trying to see what's going on--his primary human

characteristic that was most valuable is he's a

lefty. He's now referred to as "the southpaw

savant."
But it was a human characteristic that made those

adjustments, that made that capacity work in a way

that we never imagined possible, and that 10 years

ago we were prepared to write off as garbage. And

instead today, it's revolutionizing not only the

field of astronomy, but also informing all of us

as human beings of the origins of this universe,

its progression over time. It has changed the way

we look at everything. In the last 18 months it

has been a remarkable set of discoveries that have

emerged from that capability that would never have

been possible were it not for human intervention.

So those are the two areas we really have to

focus on, is recognizing how we can advance the

exploration opportunities by being informed as

deeply as we can through a stepping-stone approach

of always developing those capabilities and

technologies that then permits the maximum

opportunity for human involvement, and then in

those cases in which nothing else will do than

human intervention and cognitive judgment and

determination, and making selections that only

humans can do, where do you use those judiciously
in order to avoid the unnecessary risk that's

attendant to space flight for only those purposes

and causes that are of greatest gain.

MR. MAHONE: Right here.

QUESTION: David Chandler with New Scientist

Magazine. One thing that the Board explicitly

avoided talking about, not because they didn't

think it was important but because they didn't see

it as their role to do, was issues of personal

accountability. I'm wondering what your thoughts

are on whether it is your role, and for example,

people within the agency who failed to follow

NASA's own rules. What kind of a message about

the importance of safety will be sent if there is

no personal accountability or personal

consequences for people who didn't follow your own

rules in this mission?

MR. O'KEEFE: Well, first and foremost, I am

personally accountable, myself, for all the

activities of this agency. I take that as a

responsibility and I do not equivocate on that
point. I think it is absolutely imperative that

we all view our responsibilities, and that one is

mine.

The approach I think that is absolutely

imperative to follow through with in this

institutional change that we've talked about here,

and had lots of different comments and

observations about, that the report covers in

depth, is that you must select folks in leadership

and senior management capacities who understand

exactly what that set of institutional change

requirements are. So rather than saying I'm going

to remove so-and-so, it's more a case of, I need

to appoint folks who understand that.

At this juncture of the four space flight centers

that have any specific activity over Shuttle

operations, International Space Station, et

cetera, so among the 10 centers there are four

that specifically and uniquely deal with space

flight operations. The longest-serving tenure

center director was appointed in April of 2002.

He is now the elder statesman among them. The
rest have been appointed since. And those are the

folks who are, in my judgment, the kinds of

leaders who very clearly understand, they get it,

that this is about institutional change. Those

are the folks that I fully anticipate are going to

be the ones who will be the folks who will carry

this out and accomplish the objectives we talked

about here today, and they in turn select those

managers, engineers, technical folks who share

that same ethos.

So as we work through this we've got to be very,

very deliberate in relying on the judgment of

individuals who have committed to those

objectives. And I encourage you to just kind of

scan through the senior leadership as well as the

senior positions here throughout the agency that

have bene conducted, and you'll find a rather

significant new management team in those

capacities, new leadership team, and all of them

share the view that I've just talked about here,

which is this is an institutional challenge which

is greater than any one of us individually or even

collectively. It's about the longer-term values,
discipline and principles that this agency should

adhere to, and they share those goals and views.

MR. MAHONE: Last question.

QUESTION: Steven Young with SpaceFlightNow.com.

I'm wondering if you've actually read the report

cover to cover, or whether you intend to do that,

and whether you would make it required reading for

NASA employees and contractors?

MR. O'KEEFE: I think I don't need to direct that

it be required reading. I haven't run into

anybody in this agency, any colleague in the

organization who have not felt that this is

something they want to read in its fullness. So I

think no amount of direction from me is going to

make a difference. People are doing it because

they view that as a responsibility, that we all

need to view this is a responsibility that all of

us must carry.

I have read through it as of--again, it was a

long day yesterday, but I started when Admiral

Gehman dropped it off at 10 o'clock yesterday
morning, so I had about a one hour head start from

his press conference. And again, what I found in

reading through it was that it remarkably patterns

exactly what they said in all their public

statements. So in many respects I was reading the

same things I've been hearing, in listening to

those public hearings, listening to their public

comments. I've got to go back this weekend and

read every single word for its content to do that

right, but in reading through it briskly, as of

yesterday morning and then last night after we

left them, after a long session with them, had a

chance for several hours to read through it again.

But again, it struck me immediately as being

remarkably close and right on to what it is

they've been saying. So there were no surprises

in that regard.

But this weekend, you bet, word for word, from

the first page to the last word on page 248 is

what I intend to read. I don't need to instruct

that anybody in the agency do that. I'll bet

everybody is, because I think this is the sense of

responsibility we all need to share, and I think

that doesn't need to be directed by anybody.
MR. MAHONE: Mr. Administrator, thank you very

much, and thank all of you for being here today.

[Whereupon, at 12:31 p.m., the press briefing was

concluded.]