NAC Aeronautics Committee meeting March 22, 2017 Page 1 of 10

NASA Advisory Council (NAC)

Aeronautics Committee

March 22, 2017 

NASA Headquarters, Washington, D.C.

Summary of Meeting Minutes

Participants:

First Last Organization Role 

Marion Blakey Rolls Royce North America Chair 

John Borghese Rockwell Collins Vice Chair

Dr. John-Paul Clarke Georgia Tech University Member

Dr. Michael Francis United Technologies 

Research Center Member 

Dr. Lui Sha University of Illinois Member 

Gen. Lester Lyles AF Retired NAC Chair

Dr. Greg Hyslop Boeing Member 

Irma Rodriquez NASA ARMD Committee Exec. Secretary 

Dr. Jaiwon Shin NASA ARMD Associate Administrator 

Robert Pearce NASA ARMD OAA DAA / Strategy 

Jon Montgomery NASA ARMD OAA DAA / Management 

Alicia Wesley NASA ARMD Staff

Dr. John Cavolowsky NASA ARMD Director AOSP 

Dr. Edgar Waggoner NASA ARMD Director, IASP

Doug Rohn NASA ARMD Director, TACP

Richard Young NASA LaRC ACP Project Manager

Alan Angleman The National Academies of 

Sciences Public

Doug Farren Sierra Nevada Corporation Public

J.D. Harrington NASA Public

Linda Karanian NASA Public

Lee Olson FAA Public

Michelle Rodrigues SRI International Public

The meeting was called to order at 9:39 a.m.
NAC Aeronautics Committee meeting March 22, 2017 Page 2 of 10

Welcome and Announcements

Dr. Jaiwon Shin welcomed all attendees. Dr. John-Paul Clarke and General Lester 

Lyles attended remotely. 

New Administration and Transition Update

Dr. Shin began the update with his impression of the new presidential transition team

after briefing them in December. He was impressed about the team’s interest to learn 

more about NASA’s initiatives and goals so that the Administration can do its best to 

support the agency. The discussion highlights are below:

 The transition team had notable interest toward NASA’s work with X-planes and

UAS technology. Both the team and Congress have genuine interest and 

expectations for the Aeronautics Research Mission Directorate’s (ARMD) low 

boom research to produce positive results for the United States and to reach 

actualization in the coming years. 

 Update provided on NASA’s preliminary budget released on Thursday, March 

16th. It was noted that the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) could 

change the numbers, and that the actual budget will be released a little later than 

typical, in or around mid-May.

 Overall, Dr. Shin emphasized that NASA fared well with regard to budget, and 

provided perspective of other department budget percentages. Relative to other 

departments, ARMD experienced a one-percent cut for FY18, a total reduction of 

$10 million. NASA’s Office of Education will be terminated, along with six to eight 

Earth Science projects and missions. 

 Dr. Shin expressed that the present challenge is completing ARMD’s X-plane 

initiatives and other emerging aeronautics technology within the current budget. It 

was asked about how Congress will respond to the President’s goals with overall 

objectives and budget, specifically regarding cuts. In the past, discrepancies in 

proposed budgets were met with additional funds back from Congress. This 

might happen again under this Administration during the normal budget process 

course.

 Potential new projects in the current administration and budget expectations was 

brought up. Dr. Shin described what the process could look like if NASA 

leveraged its low boom research, which has been researched for years. On one 

hand, it can be argued that it is an extension of old work. However, others could 

claim that it is a new work because the low boom demonstrator X-plane is 

moving out of the concept development phase. These factors would determine 

whether NASA can initiate new LBFD project. 

 It was stressed the importance of this newfound excitement over low boom 

research, which was a contrast from previous administrations. NASA is viewed 

as a model agency that cares how tax payer money is used, focuses on 

efficiency, not frivolously spending money. As a result, FY18 looks positive, as

OMB specified that the administration – including Congress – supports low boom 

research, especially because it will benefit the US industry. 
NAC Aeronautics Committee meeting March 22, 2017 Page 3 of 10

 Low boom was spelled out in the two-page budget release. The administration 

believes that NASA delivers results and thus, trusts the vision toward this 

initiative. The budget released is still not the final budget but drastic changes are 

not expected.

 It was announced that General Lester Lyles, who joined the meeting remotely, 

was named Chairman of the overall NASA Advisory Council, which was met with 

applause and congratulations.

 The X-planes was discussed in terms of how to prioritize this initiative under 

NASA Aeronautics’ tight budget. It was indicated that convincing the public 

about the value of the X-planes project would ensure that NASA maintains the 

support it has for this project. The value has already been established, so NASA 

must find a way to talk to Congress, and emphasize what is needed to be done

and continue advocating to accelerate the initiative in the next budget cycles. 

 Accelerating the initiative could mean better or different partnership (e.g., Air 

Force Research Laboratory), or finding different ways to develop X-planes and 

elevate them to a national level. Military-to-civil transfer of concepts or vice versa 

is also possible. NASA expects that the Department of Defense (DoD), NASA, 

and industry will come together in a unified front to push X-planes into a reality.

The United States needs to be first in producing this technology and continue to 

be the global leader in aviation innovation.

 Another point brought up was that NASA could also improve its communication 

on the civilian side. It was suggested that the two agencies (NASA and DoD) are 

aligned to bring revolutionary technology in the next 50 years and emphasizing 

the need to produce next generation technology in the 21st century. Both the 

commercial and military partners want new freighters, which is a solid start for 

NASA to fill in the gaps.

ARMD Integrated Strategy for UAS

Dr. Ed Waggoner led a presentation about the ARMD’s strategy for implementing 

Unmanned Aerial Systems (UAS) into the aviation industry. A key issue is managing 

aircraft that are lighter, and require less power, while managing various levels of 

autonomy within the aircraft. A summary of the major points of discussion follows.

 Question regarding certification of UAS vehicles was raised. NASA indicated 

that it varies but NASA is currently working with the Federal Aviation 

Administration (FAA). ARMD expects full integration of UAS by 2025. In order for 

routine UAS access to occur, the requirements are: identifying and including the 

appropriate stakeholders and their needs, administering the FAA’s integration 

strategy, and arranging a concept of operations and plans. ARMD must leverage 

information from government-wide research and development (R&D) analysis 

and FAA’s R&D roadmap. Current UAS Traffic Management (UTM) rollout has 

been successful. As a result, NASA hopes to work with various start-up

companies to begin the process of integrating autonomous systems in UAS 

vehicles. 
NAC Aeronautics Committee meeting March 22, 2017 Page 4 of 10

 The main barrier now is the certification and quality of the autonomous systems.

It was suggested that the current verification system in place – evidence-based 

certification – is not valid enough. The main issue is to reduce complexities within 

UAS and there are not enough safety checks. Complex systems are difficult to 

check so power and high performance become the focus. Therefore, in order to 

integrate UAS effectively, simpler UAS models are needed to ensure that safety 

checks rely on less assumption and can ensure more quality system 

certifications.

 Machine learning is the most important aspect as is software checks. No 

specifications are perfect, so it is important to apply the right technology to better 

inspect UAS. 

 Another example provided was of intelligence software - Explainable Artificial 

Intelligence (XAI) from the Defense Advanced Research Project Agency 

(DARPA). Essentially, the software will morph before we can simplify the 

technology, and while we might not avoid complex systems, bugs can be fixed 

before we reach them if the XAI format is introduced into UAS. 

 So far, UTM is most capable in managing rural occupation in mid-altitude 

heights. NASA is solving these problems and is actually closest to solving the 

rural problem. It is possible to focus in multiple areas because each region and 

altitude issue requires different solutions, especially because the hardest 

problem’s solution may not trickle down to rural issues. Researchers are 

analyzing the relationship between size, weight and performance. 

 What makes the urban environment so difficult to manage with in-between 

altitudes, is that this group includes the most types of purposes. As a result, 

policy issues must be addressed before UAS can take off in this mode. Adding a 

pilot on the ground is one solution. 

 There should be policy for safe passage over shared space, and that regulation 

is needed to fly through the space and time corridor. It was expressed that 

discussions and market drivers exist for this question. 

 The FAA has been debating for a while about enough empty space for 

emergency landings. Segregation of airspace is generally not allowed. For

example, space launches, are an exemption from the segregation rule. While 

commercial space launch has limited space segregation, it causes major delays 

in flights at surrounding airports, causing disruption.

 A suggestion was offered for an equivalent to a traffic light where there are timerelegated separations that restrict when and where vehicles can go, as opposed 

to physical spatial segregation in the road like lines on the road. 

 The UAS issue has been deconstructed as follows: 

o The toughest altitudes are low altitude, urban areas, which include UAS –

or IFR-like aircraft -- that will focus on package delivery and trade space, 

and UTM is focused on construction, search and rescue. Public trust is a 

critical issue in this area as well due to noise, security, and environmental 

concerns. The smallest, lowest capability machines in this environment

are in the toughest bracket of UAS. However, solving these problems will 

offer more benefits for commercial usage of IFR-like aircraft. 
NAC Aeronautics Committee meeting March 22, 2017 Page 5 of 10

 It was suggested that the economy will decide what aircraft will shift technology 

and the NAS. Once initial UAS entry issues have been solved, other aspects, like 

regulatory changes and revolutionary UAS technology, will fall in line. NASA can 

look through the “opportunity lens”. Companies can develop autonomy, and 

NASA can develop certification standards and methods. NASA must look at the 

gaps in technology and focus their research and production there. 

 Australia and New Zealand were suggested as the first countries to completely 

introduce UAS technology to a point where industry is able to fly where they 

wish. 

 The United States has the edge in UAS integration because of its general 

approach to introducing technology to the public, its focus on standards, airspace 

density, and leadership. The nation’s next challenge would be maintaining that 

standard. How quickly could the country push the boundaries for flexibility?

 Another factor advantageous to the US is that other countries and companies 

might need FAA certification and would have to wait on US integration in order to

continue their progress toward airspace occupation. 

 While the United States’ leads in UAS technology, NASA reminded everyone to 

avoid minimizing the capabilities of countries. For instance, the Gross Domestic 

Product of aviation in other areas such as Dubai of the United Arab Emirates is 

around 30%. 

 On-Demand Mobility (ODM) will leverage UAS technology and business, as

highly autonomous systems open the door for UAS to achieve full private and 

commercial integration. As a result, NASA is working with industry and FAA to 

remove additional barriers. 

 One barrier to ensuring the safety of UAS integration is the ability to detect and 

avoid other aircraft. NASA and its partners are developing technology for both 

high and low performance aircraft to detect aircraft in the vicinity. This relies on 

communication with ground pilot for the right information, so the challenge that 

NASA faces right now is deciphering the information and making effective 

adjustments. Researchers have conducted flight tests to ensure reaction times 

are accurate and timely, resulting in five prototype radio performances examined

over mountains, water and other environments. 

 Pilots are necessary in the event that a machine/computer cannot process a 

solution because machine intelligence is improving and changing the game on 

handling problems in the NAS. The UTM system is tackling issues in high 

altitude airspace. A nationwide demo will be scheduled in mid-June to test 

dozens of aircraft for system level solutions to manage the airspace.

 Figuring out how to integrate UAS is hard labor. NASA has struggled internally to 

work on the integration. NASA must take a holistic approach to solve UAS entry.

There may be significant resources in the private sector that the government 

should look into. As a result, NASA should focus on solving problems that only 

the government can solve to enable UAS entry. Entry cost may be low, and 

others can take over the rest, like Airbus in Dubai. Nontraditional and traditional 

partners are needed, and the competition keeps NASA honest, but industry has

the capabilities and technologies to make it happen. 
NAC Aeronautics Committee meeting March 22, 2017 Page 6 of 10

On-Demand Mobility (ODM) Research Strategy

Mr. Doug Rohn presented NASA’s On-Demand Mobility research strategy and began by 

defining ODM as “transportation where users have access to immediate and flexible air 

travel” with regard to trip origin, destination, and timing. The following summarizes the 

most important points of the discussion.

 Benefits of ODM travel - This conceptual mode of transportation is expected to 

be faster than cars, can cut down on time and cost with current air transport, and 

can have the potential to alleviate city congestion. An additional bonus is that the 

importance of this research is in line with ARMD goals.

 NASA is seen as the primary leader in the ODM community and has been able to 

form notable committees. This includes NASA’s X-plane models. 

 With all of the positive effects that ODM can provide to the economy and the 

public, it still faces significant barriers to exiting the conception stage and into full 

implementation, including finding the appropriate market, building stable interest, 

and technological barriers. 

 It was asked how NASA determines the market and which markets and 

communities of interest will be pivotal in ODM emergence. One suggestion

offered was that a viable market could include those that invest in high-end 

vehicles. People in this bracket typically have the resources to afford regular 

usage of ODM. 

 The research has shown that the outcomes of workshops help to identify groups, 

markets, interest, and other factors. The groups that attended the workshop 

included venture capitalists, consultants, emerging and traditional aircraft 

equipment manufacturers, aircraft subsystems and avionics, professional and 

trade organizations, operators, academic leaders, and international and national

governments. All of these groups are considered proprietors in successful ODM 

system implementation. 

 Identifying ODM reference missions were of the highest relevance to workshop 

participants because they provide both near and long-term opportunities for new 

technologies, vehicles, operations and transformative ideas for the future. 

 There was strong industry interest for VTOL reference missions, which involve 

small public use in mostly urban, low-altitude airspaces. Interest in this form of 

transportation is heightened because this could alleviate infrastructure 

challenges like runways and accessibility. 

 NASA researchers have identified the framework and an initial entry timeline to 

guide industry in addressing barriers to ODM integration with technology 

roadmaps. Essentially, the goal is to make investments for long-term 

breakthrough in VTOL missions, while focusing on near-term early adoption for 

CTOL.

 NASA could lead in noise and annoyance modeling, autonomous simplified 

vehicle operations, community architecture modeling and simulations, airspace 

integration and flight procedures and creating an overall ODM vision. Regarding 

collaborations, NASA’s researchers and engineers could work with partners and 
NAC Aeronautics Committee meeting March 22, 2017 Page 7 of 10

industry to create and manage takeoff and landing area infrastructure, backup 

safety systems, manufacturing research, development and operations, test, 

evaluation and demonstrations. 

 NASA benefits from being well-positioned and respected within the ODM 

community. It also works in NASA’s favor that the ODM community works quickly 

and is looking forward to being a part of integration. 

 ODM is important and this is the right time to get involved. Many companies 

participated in the meetings. They will come up with vehicles to sell, create

adaption techniques and ensure that autonomy actually works. Workshops are 

an effective way to exchange knowledge productively.

 NASA can leverage both industry and government. NASA’s role as a government 

agency leaves room for the ability to manage infrastructure because that is the 

government’s responsibility. ODM won’t be just a niche industry for the wealthy

and rich, but it can be expanded into wider civil use, especially to save money on 

infrastructure. 

 NASA should include the Federal Highway Association into ODM discussions 

because they can aid in infrastructure management and add additional insight to 

integrate the technology affordably and safely. 

 Liability and safety concerns of ODM need to be managed in all self-driving

vehicles, even in automobiles. Companies and government need to have the full 

picture before making this technology available to the public.

UAS/ODM Planning and Integration Discussion:

Mr. Robert Pearce led a discussion-based presentation about emerging markets that

gear toward UTM and some barriers to this opportunity. Information about the Strategic 

Thrust Roadmap, NRC Studies, RFIs, and community vetting on UAS and ODM 

strategic planning will be available in about a month. Mr. Pearce stressed that NASA is 

not creating a new project, but integrating and capitalizing on already-done projects 

such as vertical lift, electric propulsion, NAS and flight projects. The focus is to make a 

holistic effort in the program to integrate emerging market requirements, align priorities 

and timeframes across programs, and use FY2019 budget development processes to 

drive investment decisions. The main discussion points are summarized below.

 Within this process, failure is possible because of the current state of UTM 

standards and limited rules. Speeding into this area of research and integration 

would lack consideration of successful profit or safety. As a result, open 

innovation can be a problem. 

 Advice from the committee was sought on how to leverage funding, how to 

partner with organizations, and anything else the industry would deem vital to the 

success of UAS and ODM integration. 

 Certification is an area to explore with partnerships, especially for intelligence 

certification. The help of the community would streamline the process.

 It’s likely that a cultural change needs to occur within NASA. Typically, NASA has 

been great at decomposing the issue and then integrating systematically. The 
NAC Aeronautics Committee meeting March 22, 2017 Page 8 of 10

thought process is serial. With UAS integration it’s not as simple to do and 

unorthodox solutions might be necessary. It would be possible to collaborate with 

prominent companies that may not be aviation-related but could benefit from 

UAS and ODM technologies. NASA can be the nuclei to form the community. 

Overall, NASA ARMD’s adjustments need to be behavioral and goal-oriented. 

 The discussion of how NASA can keep the United States ahead in UAS 

technology is reminiscence of the space race between the United States and the 

Soviet Union. NASA experienced significant failures, but eventually the US was

the first to the moon because of the risks taken. However with UTM, the stakes 

are very high because this technology will include civilian lives on the line who 

put their faith in the safety of the systems. Because there are lives on the line, 

UTM has to be very careful with integration. People are less likely to be forgiving 

of mistakes made in aviation, and such mistakes can be very costly for the 

industry. 

 It was recommended to use virtual models of systems and cities to simulate the 

airspace which could be a crucial resource to ensuring a safe and smooth 

transition into full integration of ODM and UTM.

 NASA is currently transforming, and over the last few months, there have been 

many discussions about solidifying NASA’s identity in the 21st century. NASA 

must earn the budget money that they need. NASA’s best chance to achieve that 

is to create something the public sees. X-planes would provide a significant 

opportunity to cultivate a positive perception of NASA. 

Advanced Composites Project (ACP)

Dr. Richard Young led a presentation updating the NAC about NASA’s goals and 

approach toward advanced composites, their interactions with the FAA and DoD, 

technical challenges, budget updates and other details. He also examined the 

community team approach, and existing systems for applying advanced composite 

materials in modern aviation. Dr. Young’s approach to ACP research is to look to 

academics for fresh ideas and future engineers; rely on the FAA for advice on safety, 

industry and NASA for technology and science. The main discussion points are 

summarized below.

 During the last two years, the working relationship between FAA and NASA has

improved with the engagement of in-house FAA designees, as both agencies are 

working together on the research project. There is also more interagency 

coordination from the Air Force, Army and DARPA. 

 It was asked why the project prioritized money for tools and testing over 

producing actual materials for the public to see. The project is aiming to focus on

how researchers can take existing advanced materials and produce reliable 

products more efficiently. The tools do not vary that much, rather the basis and 

ways they are applied is the secret. 

 To bolster NASA’s work on advanced composites, the project has recommended 

relying on public-private partnership, or PPP. The PPP strategy solicits private 
NAC Aeronautics Committee meeting March 22, 2017 Page 9 of 10

and public organizations to form with NASA to solve common challenges with 

costs and products shared by team members. The PPP strategy can sometimes 

face efficiency and communication challenges, along with difficulties in managing 

administrative overhead costs and technological management. However, the 

benefits to the PPP strategy are involving skilled and diverse teams and 

introducing multiple stakeholders to the market. PPP also connects government 

research with industry needs, and promotes standardizing technology since the 

top proprietors would be using similar techniques and technology while the FAA 

provides unified guidance and receives industry-coordinated approaches. While 

NASA will not rely on PPP for every project, because it has been working most of 

the time, it is something that this research team is interested in using more 

frequently. 

 The greatest challenge to widespread usage of advanced composites is that prior 

to the administration’s transition, many of the previously funded programs 

boosted this type of collaboration, but since it has dried up, the companies and 

agency have become more insular. Engagement is coming back to improve the 

transition of information and establish more connections to improve products. 

Work Plan and Schedule Discussion

The work plan and schedule for FY17 was reviewed. Ms. Blakey led the discussion by 

comparing and contrasting FY16 and FY17. She concluded that the committee was 

ambitious in 2016. The committee covered a lot of areas in FY16 and the FY17 work 

plan is as ambitious. 

To match the level of tenacity from FY16, Ms. Blakey initiated a discussion on 

expanding NAC meetings and finding the right facilities to host the committee meetings

to make each meeting more productive. The next meeting is anticipated to occur late 

July with the new NASA administrator. NASA Langley Research Center is tentatively 

the top consideration for the location, considering the facility’s 100th anniversary. 

Committee Deliberations

Ms. Blakey opened the floor for committee members to state any findings and 

recommendations for NASA based on the topics covered. The committee summarized 

the two findings below for presentation to the NAC.

1. The Committee finds that the current NASA Aeronautics research portfolio is 

relevant and forward leaning, much more so than in the past. The Committee 

endorses the path that ARMD is taking and recognizes that it is headed in the 

right direction. NASA Aeronautics portfolio has a promising future in meeting 

National needs, and it is vital that ARMD continue to build strong partnerships 

with other government agencies and industry.

2. The Committee is encouraged by ARMD’s investigation into concepts and 

technology for On Demand Mobility (ODM). Although this field is in the early 

stage of development, the Committee recognizes and agrees with the high 

potential of this emerging market. The Committee recognizes that there is a 
NAC Aeronautics Committee meeting March 22, 2017 Page 10 of 10

fundamental question that needs to be answered regarding the roles of 

government vs. industry. NASA should not try to duplicate anything that industry 

is doing but focus on the most compelling areas that need to get accomplished 

by the government. The market is going to drive development of air vehicles but 

new infrastructure, certification and operational concepts, particularly in light of 

developments in artificial intelligence and autonomy, will be needed for the 

industry to flourish. In order for the U.S. to stay competitive and lead in this 

technology, the Committee believes that NASA needs to focus future work on 

these other areas in order to help the industry and the public. The Committee 

encourages NASA to partner with industry to learn a new way of thinking in a fast 

moving technology field. At the same time, NASA maintaining focus on 

infrastructure, certification, specifically as it pertains to autonomous systems and 

operational concepts.

Public Comments: There were no public comments. 

MEETING ADJORNED at 4:11 p.m.