Steve Johnson Interviews – Apollo/Saturn Program

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NASA MSFC Oral History Interview

Steve Johnson Interviews – Apollo/Saturn Program

Richard Dailey

Interviewed by Steve Johnson

Huntsville, Alabama – Unknown, Circa 2012

Steve Johnson: I am talking with Dick Dailey, a mechanical engineer who worked with 

the Astrionics Lab for IBM [International Business Machines] with Marshall [Space 

Flight Center]. Dick, would you tell me a little bit about your education?

Richard Dailey: I graduated from Virginia Tech [Virginia Polytechnic Institute and 

State University, Blacksburg, Virginia] in 1953 with a degree in mechanical engineering, 

specializing in thermodynamics, heat transfer. That is primarily the reason I was offered 

the job in Huntsville [Alabama], because the building of the Instrument Unit required 

all the electronics that were to be used be mounted on cold plates, which were liquid 

cooled and required a very close tolerance in temperature.

Johnson: You are talking about the Instrument Unit used to guide the Saturn V.

Dailey: Used to guide the Saturn V. As I explain to folks at the Davidson Center, when 

the Saturn V rocket lifted off the ground, the Instrument Unit took complete control 
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over the engines starting and stopping, when they would be ignited, how long they 

would burn. It kept track of location in space, it had a stable platform which allowed it 

to determine exactly the course and correctly maintain its flight path. It entered Earth 

orbit and then the Instrument Unit told the third stage to fire for the second time, taking 

it out of Earth orbit on toward the Moon. It then held the Instrument Unit and the third 

stage steady while the astronauts turned around, picked up the lander, and went on 

toward the Moon. 

My function was to make sure the electronics, when mounted on the cold plates, were 

kept cool. This meant the junction of the electronics being mounted to the cold plates 

had to be controlled very carefully in terms of flatness and how hard they were 

mounted to the cold plates in order for the liquid circulating through the cold plates to 

pick up the heat and get rid of it through what was termed a sublimator. In one term, it 

takes liquid and transfers it to gas through a heat plate and dumps the heat into space. 

The Instrument Unit only had to operate for a few hours when the astronauts took the 

lander and went on to the Moon. My purpose was to make sure the electronics were 

maintained within their proper temperatures. 

Johnson: You worked for IBM. How did you end up in Huntsville? What was it about 

IBM that brought you here?
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Dailey: Primarily, IBM and Marshall were working to develop the computer required 

to do everything that was needed during this flight stage. In working with IBM in 

Owego.

Johnson: That is Owego, New York.

Dailey: Owego, New York, right. I was involved in making sure the electronics that 

were being developed and put together in Owego were to be maintained in their 

temperatures. My experience with working with thermodynamics and cooling of 

electronics was the primary reason I was offered the job in Huntsville. I came down for 

an interview, liked what I heard, went back and convinced my family that it would be 

good for us to move to Huntsville. We had a house built over in Fagan Springs and 

moved down here in December 1962 as a family.

Johnson: Could you talk about the challenges you faced in doing the work you did for 

the Saturn V?

Dailey: The challenges were to understand the building of the electronics, how they 

were put together, and making sure that the heat generated by the electronics was 

transferred properly. All of the internal design of each of the electronic boxes had to be 
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looked at to make sure that the heat was being transferred from the electronics, which, 

at that time, were transistors, early electronics. To us today, that is antique, but it was 

something that was working. They developed the technique and we mounted 

electronics in the computer so that the function of the computer, the flight path, all of 

the engine starting and stopping, was all programmed into the computer. That was 

built into a box, I cannot remember exactly how much it weighed, but it was less than 

100 pounds. It was built in Owego, shipped to Huntsville, and IBM assembled the 

Instrument Units in a facility on Sparkman Drive. 

My challenge was testing something on the ground that had to work in space in a 

vacuum. That is what we did with the Astrionics Lab initially. We did some work with 

the cold plates and electronics mounted in vacuum chambers to make sure we 

understood what the temperature gradient across that joint would be and make sure 

that requirement was imposed on all electronics that were to be mounted on cold plates 

in the Instrument Unit. 

Johnson: How did you test the equipment?

Dailey: That was a challenge. In mounting thermal couples inside metal close to a joint, 

we had to actually drill in and mount thermal couples within thirty-second of less or an 
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inch of the surface so that we could measure the temperature of the cold plate surface 

and also the electronics’ surface. It was a real challenge because we had not done that 

before and did not know exactly what that joint would do in terms of restricting the 

flow of heat. That is why we had to look at surface finishes, flatness requirements, both 

on the cold plates themselves, which were about three feet square, and on the 

electronics themselves. We were working with contractors all over the United States, 

some out in Washington state, some out in Arizona, on Long Island [New York]. I made 

trips to these places in order to make sure they understood what the flatness 

requirements were and what we were attempting to do to maintain temperature.

Johnson: Did you have to develop any new tools or come up with any new materials in 

your work? If you did, how would you describe that process?

Dailey: I do not believe there were any new tools. Materials, I would have to say we 

did. Inside the sublimator, we had to develop a material full of holes where on one side 

it was a liquid and on the other side it was a vacuum. The process of sublimation, which 

goes directly from ice to a gas, had to pull the heat out of the fluid that was being used 

in the cold plates to keep the electronics cool. That we worked with an outfit out in 

Washington state to develop the sublimator requirements, the sublimator being where 
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the sublimation process took place where the liquid changed directly to a gas, 

eliminating the heat.

Johnson: Talk about the pace of work. You were there for eight years working on this. 

How fast did things have to be accomplished during these years?

Dailey: Let me describe one of the first things we had. There were two stages, the 

Saturn IB, which was the 200 series. In building the Instrument Units, we were basically 

learning as we went and putting these things together. We were putting in the cold 

plates, making sure the joints were spill proof, were tight so that when you turned on 

the pump that circulated the liquid in the cold plate, there were no leaks. We ended up 

having to make sure the joints between the cold plates and the liquid piping and 

flexible hosing was all tight and torqued down to specific inch pounds of torque to 

make sure those joints were leak proof. I guess that was one of the biggest challenges, 

making sure the system did not leak, there was enough liquid in the water accumulator, 

there was actually a water, glycol mixture in cooling the electronics. I guess the 

challenge was to make sure the system was leak proof and it performed its function. We 

ended up having to determine that in some of that vacuum testing. We made sure that 

temperatures we knew had to be maintained were able to be maintained.
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Johnson: It was eight years, but was the pace of work fast?

Dailey: No, it really was not fast. We ended up building twenty plus Instrument Units 

over that eight year period and you wanted to make sure things were done right. One 

of my first jobs was to work on the third shift in assisting people on the floor to make 

sure things were being done correctly. That was working at two o’clock, three o’clock in 

the morning and trying to stay awake and make sure things were done right, inspect it 

properly. We had NASA [National Aeronautics and Space Administration] inspectors 

there watching everything we did to make sure we had done everything on the 

checklist so that when they torqued up a joint, it was torqued to the right requirement. I 

did not consider it fast paced because we had to make sure things were done right. If 

they were not done right, they had to be done over.

Johnson: Talk about the shifts you worked and the hours. 

Dailey: When I first started here, I was not in management. I was working whenever 

the management people said I had to work. It was the third shift I worked for two or 

three months, shifted back to second, and then back to first shift. The hours were seven 

in the morning until the work that day was done. We worked eight to ten to twelve 

hour days, not for the entire eight years, but for the first months we had to in order to 
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make sure the process and the assembly work, things came in and had to be available at 

the right time. We had to make sure that was done correctly. When I was asked to take 

on a management job in the thermodynamics department, I had to make sure the 

people we had were top notch people. We had some of the most top notch engineers 

that I have ever met working. We still maintain contact with each other over the years. 

In fact, we have an IBM retiree group here in Huntsville of fifty plus people who 

worked on the Instrument Unit. We still maintain contact with one another. 

Johnson: How about the work environment in the Astrionics Lab? Was it a good 

environment? Like many people at Marshall during this time, did you wake up in the 

morning thinking I cannot wait to go to work?

Dailey: It was challenging work. I met quite a few of the German team. Walter 

Häussermann is the only name I can recall. The one gentleman I worked very closely 

with, I do not remember his name, he has since passed away, they were all part of the 

German crew that came in. I could not wait to work with them because they were easy 

to work with, they were very close to one another, and they brought you into the team 

wanting to make sure you felt part of the team. They did. That is why I never hesitated 

to go to work. My wife did not like the hours because that left her to take care of the 

kids, but she understood that.
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Johnson: How were you able to control costs? I would assume working for a contractor 

that controlling costs was a big deal.

Dailey: Yes, we were on a fixed price contract. Fixed price with incentive fees, I think. 

You watched each and every thing that happened, especially with the subcontractors 

we had, who we bought electronics from. We worked with North American, who built 

the stable platform. They were very easy. We never had any trouble with any of the 

subcontractors, one on Long Island, very easy to work with. I did not feel cost pressure 

because it had to be done and done right. If it were a little over cost, we probably ate 

part of the cost from our incentive fees. 

Johnson: Talk about any paths you went down that did not work. How did you recover 

from those?

Dailey: When you think about it, the making of the cold plates was probably one of the 

most challenging things because the actual cold plate itself where the liquid went 

through was no more than a quarter of an inch think. Behind that was a one inch thick 

piece of aluminum honeycomb. To have someone build that and build it right, I think 

that was probably the biggest challenge we had. I do not remember who built them. 

Mating the cold plate itself to the aluminum honeycomb was probably the most 
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challenging part of the thermodynamic system, what we call a cooling system in the 

Instrument Unit with the cold plates being the challenge they were. We were able to 

overcome that and came up with a very flat, surface finished coating that helped the 

transfer of heat between the electronics and the cold plate surface.

Johnson: Were there any surprises?

Dailey: When we think about the IB series, where there was only the first and second 

stage, they were primarily test vehicles. They transmitted results back to us. I cannot 

really remember saying there were any really significant surprises except we knew after 

the IB series finished that the cold plate system and thermodynamic system in the 

Instrument Unit was working properly. We were able to test, got results back from 

temperature measurements on the electronics that were maintained within their 

temperature limits. We were able to measure the performance of the stable platform so 

that the gyroscopes were properly cooled and maintained. That required internal 

cooling because the electronics in the stable platform were not able to be mounted on a 

stable platform.

Johnson: Did you have experience with other NASA centers during your work or was it 

always with people from Marshall?
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Dailey: We did a little bit with the people at the space center in Florida, but it was 

primarily with Marshall. It was very little with the space center in Florida. 

Johnson: In the work you did do even a little bit with the other centers, did you notice 

any difference between the centers? Was there any rivalry that you noticed?

Dailey: No, not rivalry. I think it was a comradery rather than rivalry. We were there to 

do a job as a contractor, and the job was to get the rockets in the air, working properly, 

especially when they got down to man rated. When they first started putting man on 

Apollo 8, we had to make sure everything was working properly. No rivalry at all 

between the centers. It was we had to do a job and do it right the first time.

Johnson: Can you talk about Dr. [Wernher] von Braun’s involvement with what you 

were doing? Did he come around? Were you in meetings with him? Was he involved in 

the project you were on?

Dailey: He was aware of the work being done by IBM. I was in several meetings with 

von Braun. I never met him personally, but my impression was [he was] very 

knowledgeable, very direct, questions pointed, and if you got the right answer, that was 

fine. If you did not get the right answer, he would point again and again to make sure 
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he got the answer he was looking for. After the landing on the Moon, he came around 

and was thanking us for the work that was done.

Johnson: What did that mean to you?

Dailey: I always say that my time here in Huntsville was the highlight of my IBM 

career, close to thirty years. I spent twelve years here in Huntsville, but I do not talk 

about everything else, I talk about Huntsville. That was the highlight of my career with 

IBM. 

Johnson: You worked on your project. Can you talk a little bit about the integration of 

what you did with all the other parts? Was that something that you considered or were 

involved with the integration of the guidance system with everything else that made 

the Saturn fly?

Dailey: I personally was not involved with the integration, that was the electronics 

people. I knew them. In fact, the manager of the electronics group lived right behind me 

over in Fagan Springs. We worked as a team to put a unit together that would perform 

its function. That function was to make sure the astronauts, when they picked up the 
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lander, were on their way in the right trajectory. There was never a recorded failure in 

the Instrument Unit in all of the flights that it performed in. Never one failure.

Johnson: How proud are you of that fact?

Dailey: Absolutely. When I say we sat and watched [Neil] Armstrong put his foot on 

the Moon on a black and white TV [Television], I say I was part of that. That is why I 

say that is the highlight of my IBM career. I was part, and our team was part, of putting 

that man on the Moon.

Johnson: As a contractor, what was your experience like working with NASA?

Dailey: When you say contractor, we were being paid by NASA, we were under contact 

to NASA, but we were part of a team effort. I do not say we were never pinned down as 

being a contractor. We were part of the NASA team that they put together to build the 

unit and build a rocket to get man to the Moon. I never felt that I was considered a 

“contactor” or a sub, whatever you want to call it, below their level. 

Johnson: You were not an employee, you were a member of the team.
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Dailey: I was a member of the team, the IBM/NASA contractor team that put man on 

the Moon. Yes, that was why I consider that the highlight of my IBM career. 

Johnson: Talk about NASA Headquarters. In your experience, did Headquarters help 

or interfere with the development process you were involved with?

Dailey: I do not remember having felt any interference at all as long as we were 

meeting schedule, meeting close to cost, and performing properly. We never had any 

trouble with NASA Headquarters. In fact, I know we had meetings with NASA, and if 

there were NASA Headquarters people there, I do not recall them standing out as 

different than part of our team. We were there to do a job. NASA was there to do a job, 

and we were assisting them, making sure it was done properly. I do not consider NASA 

Headquarters having effected or influenced anything we did at all. 

Johnson: Talk about how you felt when the Saturn Vs were flying successfully and you 

knew that you had contributed to that. How did you feel?

Dailey: Every time one launched, we watched it. We were able to attend one launch in 

Florida. I do not know how you can describe being pleased with what happened or a 

feeling of exaltation about every time one went and it went properly, you knew good 
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and well that your part of that was there working and working properly. Every time the 

astronauts picked up that lander and went to the Moon, yeah, I did part of that!

Johnson: Did you know or did you sense at the time that you were part of making 

history?

Dailey: No, I guess I would not consider myself as being part of making history. I was 

part of something that was very unusual, something that had not been done before, and 

being part of that made it so special. If I could go back and do it again, I would do so 

without hesitation. When I had to leave here, when the job was over, it was a downer. 

Having been through what we went through here, the family all felt part of it, our kids 

grew up with it, they all knew what we were working on, and they all felt a part of it. 

Johnson: We know how much recognition von Braun and the German team got. Do you 

feel like the rest of the thousands of technicians and engineers and assembly line 

workers, people like you, contractor teams, got the recognition for your contribution? 

Do you feel like you did?

Dailey: Talking about recognition, that means you want a pat on the back. You do not 

need a pat on the back because you already know you were a part of that team and you 
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were able to accomplish it. That, to me, was satisfaction enough. I did not need 

somebody to come around and say good job. I knew what we did and did right and 

making part of history was all I needed. I did not need anybody to pat me on the back. I 

was not looking for it, I do not think anyone else really did. They knew they were part 

of an unusual and unique team. There were all sorry to see it end, but I do not believe 

we were looking for anything, recognition. 

The drive that von Braun put into this program, his personal involvement with the 

program, and the recognition he got was well deserved. Without a push from a very 

strong engineering character, I am not sure we would have done what we did. When 

President [John Fitzgerald] Kennedy said let us put a man on the Moon before 1970, 

that was enough, plus von Braun’s involvement. I am sure glad IBM got in as part of the 

job. That is why I am back here. I love Huntsville, love the area, and I would not leave 

here unless I absolutely had to.

Johnson: When you think back on the work you did and the work the entire team 

accomplished, was there one thing that jumps into your mind, something you think 

about on a regular basis?
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Dailey: I show people a picture that is right by the Instrument Unit out at the Davidson 

Center. There is a picture of an Instrument Unit in a cover with all of the team standing 

around. It is the IU-501, the first 500 series IU [Instrument Unit] that was shipped out of 

Huntsville. I look at that and I ask people who are looking at the picture if they can find 

me in the picture. I am there, but I do not know where I am. I am part of that team. That 

in itself is enough. I look at that group of people who worked long hours over the years 

to do the job that was done. I look at that one picture and I say I am part of that. That is 

what I get satisfaction from.