EXHIBIT 39 

Deposition of Jeffrey Eiser 

2:09-cv-10648-DML-MJH Doc # 108-2 Filed 05/10/10 Pg 1 of 51 Pg ID 2622
Page 1

A400B45

JEFF EISER MARCH 1, 2010

ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

 EASTERN DISTRICT OF MICHIGAN

2 SOUTHERN DIVISION

3 BRENDA SUE SMITH, Deceased

 by Suetta Smith, Personal 

4 Representative of the Estate 

 of Brenda Sue Smith, Deceased,

5

 Plaintiff,

6

 v. Case No. 2:09-cv-10648

7 Honorable David M. Lawson

8 COUNTY OF LENAWEE, SHERIFF

 LAWRENCE RICHARDSON, JR., 

9 SGT. PAUL DYE, SGT. J. CRAIG, 

 OFF WENDY VANDERPOOL; OFF BERNICE 

10 BAKER, OFF ADAM ONDROVICK; PAROLE 

 AGENT THOMAS MOORE and DR. JEFFREY 

11 STICKNEY, MARY NEILL, ERIC WESTGATE,

12 Defendants.

13 DEPOSITION of JEFF EISER, taken on behalf 

14 of the Defendants, pursuant to FRCVP 30, and pursuant 

15 to Re-notice of Taking Deposition, Duces Tecum, 

16 commencing at 11:30 a.m., on March 1, 2010, at the 

17 Intelligent Office, 9435 Waterstone Boulevard, 

18 Cincinnati, Ohio 45249, before Edna M. Hawkins, a 

19 Court Reporter and a Notary Public in and for the 

20 State of Ohio.

21 - - -

22

 ATKINSON-BAKER, INC.

23 COURT REPORTERS

 (800) 288-3376

24

 www.depo.com

25 FILE: A400B45

2:09-cv-10648-DML-MJH Doc # 108-2 Filed 05/10/10 Pg 2 of 51 Pg ID 2623
2 (Pages 2 to 5)

A400B45

JEFF EISER MARCH 1, 2010

ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

Page 2

1 APPEARANCES:

2

3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF:

4 LAW OFFICES OF KENNETH D. FINEGOOD, ESQ.

 BY KENNETH D. FINEGOOD, ESQ.

5 29566 Northwestern Hwy., Ste., 120

 Southfield, MI 48034

6

7 FOR THE DEFENDANTS, LENAWEE COUNTY 

 LAWRENCE RICHARDSON, CRAIG VANDERPOOL, 

8 BERNICE BAKER and ADAM ONDROVICK:

9 JAMES W. BODARY, ESQ.

 SIEMION, HUCKABAY, BODARY, et al.

10 One Towne Square, Suite 1400

 Southfield, Michigan 48076-5068

11

12 FOR THE DEFENDANT, DR. JEFFREY STICKNEY:

13 LAW FIRM OF WILLINGHAM & COTE

 MICHAEL W. STEPHENSON, ESQ.

14 SPECIALLY APPEARING FOR: DAVID NELSON, 

 ESQ.

15 333 Albert Avenue, Suite 500

 East Lansing, Michigan 48823

16

17 FOR THE DEFENDANT, THOMAS MOORE:

18 MICHIGAN DEPARTMENT OF ATTORNEY GENERAL

 BY: KEVIN R. HIMEBAUGH, ESQ.

19 525 W. Ottawa 4th Floor

 Lansing, Michigan 48913

20

 - - -

21

22

23

24

25

Page 3

1 I N D E X

2 WITNESS: JEFF EISER

3 EXAMINATIONS PAGE

4 By Mr. Bodary 4, 139

5 By Mr. Nelson 104, 143

6 By Mr. Finegood 115, 146

7 By Mr. Himebaugh 146

8

9

10 EXHIBITS

11 DEFENDANTS'

12 A List of Documents and Materials 5

 Reviewed

13

 F Report of Jeff Eiser 14

14

 G List of Attachments 12

15

 H Letter to Kenneth Finegood 15 

16 dated 1/5/10 w/attachment

17 I Curriculum Vitae of Jeff Eiser 20

18 J List of Cases where Jeff Eiser 21

 was retained as an expert

19 witness in last 4 years

20

 PLAINTIFF'S

21 K Policy Number: 4.5.1.1 124 

22 - - -

23

24

25

Page 4

1 JEFF EISER

2 of lawful age, a witness herein, being first duly 

3 sworn, as hereinafter certified, was examined and 

4 testified as follows:

5 EXAMINATION

6 BY MR. BODARY:

7 This deposition is taking pursuant to 

8 Notice, under the Federal Rules for all 

9 uses allowed.

10 Q. Your name is Jeff Eiser; is that 

11 correct? 

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. What's your business, your office 

14 address? 

15 A. My office address is 12122 Huntergreen 

16 Drive, all one word, Cincinnati, Ohio, 45211.

17 Q. What's your date of birth?

18 A. Is September 7th, 1958.

19 Q. Is that your home address on 

20 Huntington Green? 

21 A. Huntergreen, yes, it is.

22 Q. All right. You don't have an office 

23 in an office building? 

24 A. No, I do not.

25 Q. When you bill for activities, such as 

Page 5

1 this case, do you have a company or corporation that 

2 receives the payment? 

3 A. No, I do not; it's a sole 

4 proprietorship.

5 Q. That's an assumed name? 

6 A. No, sir.

7 Q. It's just your name? 

8 A. It's just my name.

9 Q. The Notice for your deposition which 

10 has been rescheduled a few times, requested seven 

11 different items, the first of which was all materials 

12 that were provided for you to review in the case. 

13 Have you brought those with you? 

14 A. Yes, I have.

15 (Xerographic Document, one page, 

 headed, Appendix A, with attachment, 

16 was marked for identification Exhibit 

 A.)

17 Q. We received an Appendix A with a 

18 written report and I've had this marked as Exhibit 

19 letter A, of today's date, that this document, you've 

20 seen as of December 8th, 2009. Is that a complete 

21 list as of that date? 

22 A. Yes, I believe it is.

23 (Witness reviewing document.)

24 Q. All right. Have you received or 

25 looked at any other materials? 

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A400B45

JEFF EISER MARCH 1, 2010

ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

Page 6

1 A. I have received other materials since 

2 the issuance of my report, yes.

3 Q. Have you brought those with you? 

4 A. Yes, I have.

5 Q. What are they? 

6 A. Copies of depositions.

7 Q. And which, which depositions? 

8 A. Eric Westgate, Wendy Vanderpool, 

9 Dennis Steenrod, Lawrence Richardson, Mary Neill, 

10 Thomas Moore, Paul Dye, Bonita Mason.

11 Q. And did you read all of those? 

12 A. I have not. I just received these this 

13 week.

14 Q. So which ones did you read? 

15 A. I have not reviewed these depositions 

16 yet.

17 Q. Have you received any summary of any 

18 of the testimony in those depositions? 

19 A. No, I have not.

20 Q. You understood this was the date and 

21 time set for you to give testimony under oath 

22 regarding your opinions in this matter; is that true? 

23 A. Yes, that's true.

24 Q. All right. Do you take the process of 

25 reviewing correctional records and medical records 

Page 7

1 seriously? 

2 A. Absolutely.

3 Q. It's a weighty matter for you to be 

4 critical of someone, depriving another of Civil 

5 Rights; you'd agree? 

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You don't take the assignment lightly? 

8 A. I do not.

9 Q. You, therefore, make a thorough, 

10 careful and thorough review of the materials that can 

11 touch upon your opinions; is that true? 

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. And you did that before you prepared 

14 this report of December, 2009; is that correct? 

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. The Exhibit letter A, identifies 20 

17 items, I think by type and admittedly, there are some 

18 descriptions of particular items. Did you look at 

19 every one of the 20 items before you prepared the 

20 report? 

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. It appears that you were given a -- 

23 some transcript of phone calls or a phone call 

24 between Paul Dye and Jeff Stickney. This is item 

25 number 5; do you see that? 

Page 8

1 A. Yes sir.

2 Q. You also were given; weren't you, the 

3 actual tape-recording of the phone call between Paul 

4 Dye, listed as 20B? 

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Did you listen to the tape? 

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Did you notice any mistakes in the 

9 transcription? 

10 A. I did not. 

11 Q. Did you ask for these depositions or 

12 were they just sent to you by the plaintiff's lawyer?

13 A. I did not ask; they were sent to me by 

14 plaintiff's lawyer.

15 Q. Had you asked for any materials that 

16 you think you needed to see before you prepared your 

17 report in this case in December of 2009? 

18 A. I don't recall of our conversations. 

19 The documents that I received were the ones that I 

20 asked for and that were submitted. I don't remember 

21 exactly what I -- our verbal conversations of what I 

22 asked for.

23 Q. I'm not sure I needed the verbal 

24 conversation. Let me do this: Is this the first 

25 case you've looked at at the request of Ken Finegood? 

Page 9

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know how he found you? 

3 A. Honestly, I never asked him.

4 Q. Do you advertise your service as an 

5 expert in correctional cases? 

6 A. I am listed on The Americans for 

7 Effective Law Enforcement site and also on Juris Pro.

8 Q. Repeat the first, Americans for --

9 A. Americans for Effective Law 

10 Enforcement, AELE.org.

11 Q. And the second one? 

12 A. Is Juris Pro.com.

13 Q. Juris Pro sounds like a website? 

14 A. Yes, it is. 

15 Q. And that lists forensic experts that 

16 lawyers can contact? 

17 A. Yes, it does.

18 Q. In addition to being -- First of all, 

19 did you volunteer to be listed with these two 

20 locations? 

21 A. The ELE asked me. It is a volunteer; 

22 it's a nonprofit organization. The Juris Pro is 

23 something that I had heard about through attorneys 

24 and upon retirement, I looked at different services 

25 and selected that one as being one that I felt 

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A400B45

JEFF EISER MARCH 1, 2010

ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

Page 10

1 comfortable with.

2 Q. And when you receive a case from Juris 

3 Pro dot com, is there some fee paid there? 

4 A. No, there is not.

5 Q. Did you pay to be listed? 

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. So let me go back to the inquire here 

8 of materials. There are 20 items with subdivisions 

9 and descriptions here, listed in Exhibit A. Did you 

10 ask for these or were they just sent by the lawyer? 

11 A. Again, I don't remember exactly. Some 

12 things I asked about, talked about; some things were 

13 sent and I received a binder with most of the 

14 documents in there. I did ask for some, such as the 

15 policies and documents, but most of it was sent by 

16 the attorney to me.

17 Q. Okay. Other than the policies that 

18 are listed here, under 17, is there anything else on 

19 the Exhibit that you remember you asked for, 

20 specifically, rather than the lawyer volunteering? 

21 A. I think I asked for the request for 

22 admissions, interrogatories, Complaint, those are 

23 things I would have asked for, the investigative 

24 report, something I will always ask for.

25 Q. Well, I want to know what you asked 

Page 11

1 for on this occasion? 

2 A. I don't recall. Generally, I would 

3 ask for that. 

4 Q. If it wasn't sent to you? 

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Well, did the materials come in a 

7 one-ring binder? 

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And that's the binder you brought here 

10 today? 

11 A. Yes, it is. 

12 Q. And that was one mailing? 

13 A. There was one mailing and subsequent 

14 small mailings, I believe.

15 Q. What part of the ring binder has the 

16 small mailings? 

17 A. I put `em in a folder.

18 Q. Okay. So if we look between, if I 

19 may, you've got a ring binder and the ring binder 

20 contains materials you were initially sent; is that 

21 correct? 

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And the front page which I'm going to 

24 have marked as Exhibit G, is a list of what's 

25 contained in the ring binder? 

Page 12

1 A. Yes. It's got all the attachments.

2 Q. Okay.

3 MR. BODARY: Go off the record.

4 (Xerographic Document, one page, 

 headed, "Attachments," was marked for 

5 identification Exhibit G.)

6 Having now marked that as Exhibit G, we 

7 will need to compare this Exhibit G with those listed 

8 on Exhibit A. We can differentiate between those we 

9 received initially that the lawyer choose (sic), 

10 those on Exhibit G and those that came through later; 

11 is that a fair statement? 

12 A. Again, what I remember, what I recall 

13 is that we had a conversation about the case and Mr. 

14 Finegood asked me what would I be looking for, what 

15 would I look at and I don't remember the exact words, 

16 but I always say the same thing, so again, with all 

17 the cases that I do --

18 Q. Is that before he sent you the ring 

19 binder? 

20 A. Yes. We talked before.

21 Q. Okay. Well, what I'm trying to get at 

22 is this list that's marked we've marked Exhibit G is 

23 what you first received in one mailing and if we 

24 compare it with Appendix A, now marked Exhibit A, 

25 that the additional items', now in your Manila folder 

Page 13

1 that you received in other mailings; is that true? 

2 A. Could be, yes.

3 Q. And did you take notes in the course 

4 of reviewing? 

5 A. What I do is I take electronic notes 

6 which then become my report. I've created a WORD 

7 documents, literally, at the beginning, with a title 

8 and that's the way I've been doing it for the last 10 

9 years and create my report out of those particular 

10 notes.

11 Q. All right. That WORD documents been 

12 edited how many times. 

13 A. Well, every time I would go in, the 

14 final, obviously, is the end of of my report, but 

15 it's been, it's a working document; it's was issued 

16 as a report.

17 Q. Yeah. I'm trying to get a sense, did 

18 you edit it four or five times, two times? 

19 A. Every time I would work on it.

20 Q. And how many would that be, 

21 approximately.

22 A. You don't want me to guess.

23 Q. No, estimate. What's your best 

24 approximation of the number.

25 A. Well, once you create the document, 

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A400B45

JEFF EISER MARCH 1, 2010

ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

Page 14

1 you go into it anytime you would have a though or an 

2 issue or something you need to write, you put it in. 

3 I worked on this case over a period of, you know, I 

4 don't know; it was four-to-six or something, so -- I 

5 don't keep tract to that.

6 Q. Yeah, and I didn't suggest you did. 

7 I'm just trying to think, you're the one doing it, so 

8 is this probably six edits, four edits, 12 edits? 

9 MR. FINEGOOD: If you know. If you 

10 don't know, tell him you don't know.

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. When you save the document, do you 

13 save it to a new title? 

14 A. No, the same title over and over. 

15 That keeps me organized; that's why I do it. It's 

16 for my own personal choice and it keeps me organized 

17 and everything's in one electronic file.

18 (Xerographic Document, nine pages, 

 headed, Jeff Eiser, Criminal Justice 

19 Consultant and Jail Operations Expert, 

 was marked for identification Exhibit 

20 F.)

21 Q. I've had marked as Exhibit F the 

22 nine-page document, dated December 8, 2009, and is 

23 that the report you just referred to? 

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. Have you prepared any other report? 

Page 15

1 A. No, sir.

2 Q. Do you have another WORD document in 

3 process? 

4 A. I have not started another one.

5 Q. Okay. You mentioned it was over a 

6 six-week period. What did you charge for the review 

7 and preparation of the report? 

8 A. I can get my documents out --

9 Q. Did you bring a billing statement with 

10 you?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Per your subpoena.

13 A. Right.

14 (Xerographic Document, four pages, a 

 letter, dated 1/5/10 with attachment, 

15 was marked for identification Exhibit 

 H.)

16 Q. And I'm going to hand you back what's 

17 been marked as Exhibit H, of today's date, consisting 

18 of four pages. Does that constitute all the billings 

19 you've produced up to the present day? 

20 A. On this matter, yes, sir.

21 Q. Okay. Now, did you spend additional 

22 time beyond what is billed there to prepare for this 

23 deposition? 

24 A. I did. Last evening -- Actually, 

25 yesterday, I reviewed the materials once again.

Page 16

1 Q. And how many hours was that? 

2 A. Probably an hour and a half.

3 Q. And did you meet with counsel? 

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. And how long was that? 

6 A. We met for probably an hour this 

7 morning.

8 Q. Are you billing for the meeting? 

9 A. I haven't thought about that yet.

10 Q. Well, what's your routine if you have 

11 a meeting with lawyer --

12 A. Generally, yes.

13 Q. -- on the day of the deposition, you 

14 bill that lawyer? 

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And what's your hourly rate for 

17 meetings? 

18 A. My hourly for everything is a 150 an 

19 hour.

20 Q. Are you billing for the 1.5 hours of 

21 preparation or is that part of your deposition 

22 charge? 

23 A. Again, that took place yesterday, so I 

24 will assume I will be billing for that.

25 Q. Um-hum. Looks like the items on the 

Page 17

1 notice, in addition to the materials -- Well, let me 

2 pause there. Between Exhibit A which was Addendum A 

3 to your report and the depositions that you've just 

4 listed for us, do we have all of the materials that 

5 were given to you to review that touch upon the facts 

6 of this case? 

7 A. You didn't mention the transcripts. 

8 These two document I received separately.

9 Q. But in fact, the transcript of the 

10 phone call was, in fact, listed as Exhibit 5 on -- 

11 I'm sorry -- listed number 5 on Exhibit A. 

12 A. Correct. I'm sorry. It wasn't in the 

13 original set of documents. I just answered your 

14 question.

15 Q. Yeah. So what I was trying to get to 

16 is this, sir, if I may: I appreciate you for 

17 bringing out the transcript of the phone call between 

18 Paul Dye and Dr. Stickney and between Mary Neill and 

19 Dr. Stickney, but actually, those were already 

20 identified in Exhibit A; correct, cause you had both 

21 of those before you prepared your report? 

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. My question was trying to make sure 

24 that there is no other document that you've looked at 

25 that relates to the underlying facts and policies and 

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JEFF EISER MARCH 1, 2010

ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

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1 procedures that we haven't had identified by your 

2 reading the names of the depositions that you, 

3 admittedly, have not read and all those items, 20 

4 items listed in Exhibit A.

5 A. I did also receive expert reports

6 Q. One of those reports -- Well, strike 

7 that. Are those -- Did they include the expert 

8 report of Nurse Wilson (sic)? 

9 A. That's in the notebook.

10 Q. That's in your binder? 

11 A. Yes, in the binder.

12 Q. So you're saying that -- What date did 

13 you receive these other reports? 

14 MR. FINEGOOD: For the record, it's 

15 Nurse Wilton.

16 MR. BODARY: I'm sorry? 

17 MR. FINEGOOD: You said Wilson, I 

18 believe.

19 MR. BODARY: And it's Wilmer? 

20 MR. FINEGOOD: Wilton. 

21 MR. BODARY: Wilton. Excuse me.

22 A. The correspondence is dated January 

23 29th, 2010, so I received that subsequent to that 

24 date.

25 Q. Did you read `em? 

Page 19

1 A. Yes, I have.

2 Q. Did you make any notes? 

3 A. No, sir.

4 Q. The top enclosures appear to be 

5 experts of the defendant, but the last one seems to 

6 be the report of Joe Goldenson, M.D.?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Is that the first time you saw this 

9 report? 

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. All right. The notice also asked you 

12 to bring citations of books, journals or papers that 

13 you used as research in this matter.

14 A. I brought my two manuals for the 

15 National Health Standards and also the National 

16 Corrections Association, my working books.

17 Q. Are those the ACI and the NCCHC? 

18 A. Yes, they are. They were in a force 

19 at the time of the incident.

20 Q. The third was any written notes. You 

21 don't have any; everything was done electronically? 

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Next was written opinions and that is 

24 Exhibit F; is that correct? 

25 A. Correct.

Page 20

1 Q. Curriculum Vitae. We were provided a 

2 Curriculum Vitae.

3 A. I did bring an updated one.

4 Q. Are there any changes, if you know.

5 A. I think added to -- On the previous 

6 one, I did not include the fact that I'm in the 

7 process of completing my Master's degree in 

8 education.

9 MR. BODARY: We'll mark that as 

10 Exhibit I.

11 (Xerographic Document, three pages, 

 Curriculum Vitae of Jeff Eiser, was 

12 marked for identification Exhibit I.)

13 Q. The next item on the Duces Tecum was 

14 for a list of any cases which you've acted as an 

15 expert in a trial or deposition. Is this list 

16 updated from that which was attached? 

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. There are two new cases that you've 

19 reviewed; is that correct? 

20 A. I believe there was -- I had to 

21 compare it to the other list because I try to keep a 

22 current --

23 Q. I'm going to show you what I have 

24 marked as Exhibit B which was the list initially 

25 produced and you have two cases now listed above the 

Page 21

1 Brenda Smith case; don't you? 

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So if we can take this and we'll mark 

4 this as Exhibit J. That is a list of all cases --

5 (Xerographic Document, three pages, 

 headed, "List of Cases Where Jeff 

6 Eiser Was Retained as an Expert 

 Witness in Last 4 Years," was marked 

7 for identification Exhibit J.)

8 Exhibit J, that is a list all the cases in which 

9 you've been retained as an expert in the last four 

10 years? 

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. It's 29 cases? 

13 A. It's 30.

14 Q. This list does not designate in which 

15 cases you've given depositions and which you have 

16 not; does it? 

17 A. No.

18 Q. It doesn't designate in which you've 

19 given trial testimony? 

20 A. No, it does not.

21 Q. Could you put a mark next to all the 

22 cases in which you've given trial testimony or a star 

23 if you would.

24 A. There's only been, I believe, two 

25 cases that have ever gone to trial.

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ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

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1 Q. Put stars next to them, if you would.

2 A. It's, actually, been a while -- or, 

3 actually, this is for the last four years.

4 Q. And the appearance was before that? 

5 A. Yes. I've been working as an expert 

6 since 1994.

7 Q. So the two cases you testified in are 

8 not on this list; is that correct? 

9 A. The one -- It must have been more than 

10 four year ago.

11 Q. I'm sorry? 

12 A. It must have been more than four years 

13 ago.

14 Q. All right. Are you able to circle all 

15 the cases in which you gave depositions? 

16 A. I can attempt. Most of them.

17 Q. I tell you what, I'm going to have you 

18 do that exercise when we're done with the deposition, 

19 so we can use our time with the court reporter more 

20 effectively.

21 Have you ever, previously reviewed a 

22 case involving a Michigan jail or lockup? 

23 A. Michigan, no, sir; I don't believe so.

24 Q. Have you ever inspected or surveyed a 

25 jail in Michigan? 

Page 23

1 A. No, I have not.

2 Q. You've never been to the old Lenawee 

3 County Jail; have you? 

4 A. No, I have not.

5 Q. You've never been to the new Lenawee 

6 County Jail? 

7 A. No, I have not.

8 Q. How many jails and local lockups are 

9 there in the state of Ohio? 

10 A. There are 88 counties in which 80-- I 

11 think of the 85 now have, actually, 84, 85 actually, 

12 have jails.

13 Q. Lockups? 

14 A. Except for the big counties of 

15 Cuyahoga, I believe, is the only one that has 

16 multiple lockups, Cleveland. Most of the counties 

17 don't have lockups anywhere in Ohio.

18 Q. And how many are there in Cuyahoga? 

19 A. At last count, I think there was eight 

20 or 10 different municipal jails in that county.

21 Q. What is the best source for statistics 

22 on the number of county jails and lockups? 

23 A. There is an agency in Ohio called the 

24 Bureau of Adult Detention which is in charge of the 

25 inspection and supervision of all the jails in Ohio.

Page 24

1 Q. And the Bureau of Adult Detention has 

2 a list of all the jails? 

3 A. Yes, it does.

4 Q. How many of the jails in Ohio are 

5 accredited by NCCH (sic)? 

6 A. I only know -- I only know of the one 

7 that I was administrator of was accredited by NCCHC. 

8 I know of the jail in Licking County.

9 Q. Lickum? 

10 A. Licking.

11 Q. Licking.

12 A. Licking County. Again, I'm not sure 

13 of the other ones.

14 Q. What you're giving me is Hamilton 

15 County is one you know was NCCH accredited and the 

16 other you know of is Licking County? 

17 A. There are other jails, but I can't 

18 recall which ones they are. 

19 Q. The number of certified jails is under 

20 10 percent by NCCH in the state of Ohio; isn't it? 

21 A. I only know -- I've never looked at 

22 that information up.

23 Q. Have you looked at jails in Ohio that 

24 aren't NCCH certified? 

25 A. Have I looked at jails? 

Page 25

1 Q. Yeah.

2 A. In what context? 

3 Q. Well, let me understand, first of all, 

4 you've looked at lawsuits, involving county jails, 

5 but have you also inspected jails? 

6 A. I have toured and done my own 

7 evaluation of jails, analysis of jails, yes.

8 Q. All right. Have you toured and 

9 evaluated jails in Ohio that weren't NCCH accredited? 

10 A. Yes, I have.

11 Q. How many? 

12 A. I believe Butler County. I'm sure 

13 they're -- I've never asked `em, so I'm, again --

14 Q. Have you looked at them -- Aren't you 

15 looking at policies? 

16 A. Depending on the issue, yes.

17 Q. So can you tell me how many you have 

18 looked at that weren't NCCH accredited? 

19 A. I've never -- I've looked at numerous 

20 jails. I can't consciously say how many because I 

21 never made that a conscious thought to do that.

22 Q. Was Hamilton County always NCCH 

23 accredited? 

24 A. We have been NCCH accredited since the 

25 mid-1980's, I think, when we first opened up the 

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1 Justice Center. 

2 Q. And I understood -- First of all, 

3 what's the size of Lenawee County Jail? 

4 A. My mind just went blank. It's in the 

5 hundreds of inmates.

6 Q. Are you saying you did know and you 

7 forgot? 

8 A. I'm guessing around 300 inmates.

9 Q. And Hamilton County, how many inmates 

10 did it have? 

11 A. We have four different facilities.

12 Q. The total licensed number of 

13 correctional beds in the four facilities? 

14 A. We had an average population of about 

15 2300.

16 Q. Two thousand three hundred? 

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The annual budget at Hamilton is 

19 $40,000,000? 

20 A. Correct. The last annual budget was 

21 approximately $40,000,000.

22 Q. And what of that budget was spent on 

23 inmate health care? 

24 A. Operationally, I believe somewhere 

25 around 9,000.000.

Page 27

1 Q. Describe briefly for me, by size, and 

2 facility by type if they differentiate the four 

3 facilities in Hamilton County? 

4 A. The first, the largest of the 

5 facilities is -- is called the Hamilton County 

6 Justice Center. It had a capacity of 1280 beds. It 

7 was the intake center, a full-service jail. It 

8 housed the medical units, juvenile, maximum security 

9 cells. The second facility was the Queensgate 

10 Correctional Facility.

11 Q. Is Queensgate, it's like location? 

12 A. Queensgate is on Linn Street, it was.

13 Q. All right.

14 A. One of the last things I did before I 

15 retired was we closed that facility due to budget. 

16 It was 822 beds.

17 Q. They had a medical clinic? 

18 A. They have a -- They have on-site 

19 medical care, yes, an office.

20 Q. It's not a medical clinic; it's an 

21 office for what, a nurse? 

22 A. A nurse 24 hours a day, yes.

23 Q. All right, go ahead.

24 A. We have -- The third facility is 

25 called the Reading Road facility. It's 150-bed 

Page 28

1 treatment center for those going through alcohol and 

2 drug treatment. The fourth was called the Turning 

3 Point facility which was 60 beds.

4 Q. I'm sorry. Could you go back. Was it 

5 called Reading Road?

6 A. Reading Road. It's spelled like 

7 reading, but it's pronounced redding.

8 Q. Okay. Go ahead.

9 A. And it's called the Turning Point 

10 facility which was a 60-bed -- Again, extensive 

11 treatment program for those undergoing court-ordered 

12 treatment for drug and alcohol or domestic violence.

13 Q. So two of the four facilities seem to 

14 have been dedicated to the substance individuals; is 

15 that fair to say? 

16 A. We used two of the facilities to house 

17 people that are going through treatment, correct.

18 Q. So you mentioned that the Justice 

19 Center was an intake facility, but in the intake 

20 facility do they transfer those inmates with alcohol 

21 -- that need alcohol and drug treatment over the 

22 Reading or the Turning Point? 

23 A. No. What happens is they -- each 

24 inmate will come in and be classified. Those that 

25 are court-ordered, after they've gone through the 

Page 29

1 court process, they may be ordered to go through a 

2 DUI or an extensive alcohol treatment program would 

3 be housed at those facilities.

4 Q. Okay. At the Justice Center is there 

5 a infirmary? 

6 A. Yes, there is. 

7 Q. How many beds? 

8 A. I believe we had six beds for females 

9 and around 28, 30 beds for males.

10 Q. And how was the infirmary staffed? 

11 A. It was staffed by security -- 

12 Q. Professionals, medical professionals.

13 A. Around-the-clock an RN on each shift, 

14 along with LPNs to assist.

15 Q. Is there a physician presence in the 

16 infirmary? 

17 A. Monday through Friday the physician 

18 was onsite at least, I believe, four hours a day.

19 Q. Did that physician spend time at any 

20 of the other four facilities? 

21 A. He would visit Queensgate when it was 

22 open and do sick call at Queensgate, in the 

23 afternoons.

24 Q. What's the, if you know, the 

25 population of Hamilton County? 

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1 A. The last census Hamilton County -- I'm 

2 guessing again --

3 Q. You can make an estimate.

4 A. -- it was around 450,000 people.

5 Q. Have you ever reviewed a case or done 

6 a tour or an inspection of the Kent County Jail? 

7 A. The Kenton County Jail? 

8 Q. The Kent County Jail, of Kent County 

9 Michigan.

10 A. No, sir.

11 Q. Or the Ingham County Jail? 

12 A. No, sir.

13 Q. In Lansing, Michigan? Do you know 

14 whether either of those is certified by any national 

15 association?

16 A. I have no knowledge of that.

17 Q. Do you know when the NCCH was first 

18 founded, what year? 

19 A. I could look in the manual.

20 Q. Do you know where its headquarters is? 

21 A. Again, I could look in the manual. 

22 I've never --

23 Q. Do you know off-hand? I'm asking you 

24 if you know off-hand?

25 A. No. 

Page 31

1 Q. You've never been to the NCCH 

2 headquarters? 

3 A. No. They always came to us.

4 Q. All right. They are a private, 

5 nonprofit organization, is that what you understand? 

6 A. They're a national commission, yes.

7 Q. All right. It has the word, 

8 commission, in it, but it was not commissioned by any 

9 statute or legislature; was it? 

10 A. Again, I have no personal knowledge of 

11 that.

12 Q. All right. There was no regulation of 

13 any state or in the federal government that created 

14 that commission, the national commission? 

15 A. Again, I have no personal knowledge of 

16 that, no.

17 Q. As far as you know, it's a private 

18 organization that organized itself and called itself 

19 the national commission? 

20 A. Again, I have no personal knowledge of 

21 those facts.

22 Q. All right. What does it cost to be 

23 accredited by the NCCH? 

24 A. I don't recall the actual cost. 

25 Q. What's your estimate of it; do you 

Page 32

1 know? 

2 A. It was in the thousands of dollars.

3 Q. Ten thousand? 

4 A. ACA is probably 10,000. NCC (sic) 

5 wasn't as expensive. I can't remember the exact 

6 cost.

7 Q. Okay. Is, first, the ACC also 

8 accredits jails? 

9 A. ACA? 

10 Q. ACA; I'm sorry.

11 A. Yes, it does.

12 Q. And do you know how many they have 

13 accredited in the state of Ohio? 

14 A. I have no knowledge.

15 Q. Do you know how many they have 

16 accredited in the United States? 

17 A. I have no knowledge.

18 Q. The ACA has mandatory standards; is 

19 that true? 

20 A. The ACA has standards they categorize 

21 as mandatory, yes.

22 Q. What do they call the other standards? 

23 Are they called non-mandatory or elective?

24 A. Recommended, I believe.

25 Q. Okay. And in order to be accredited 

Page 33

1 by ACA, what percentage of the recommended standards 

2 to you have to meet? 

3 A. Ninety percent.

4 Q. NCCH has essential, but not mandatory; 

5 is that correct? 

6 A. That's what they use, the word, 

7 essential, yes.

8 Q. And is there, in the state of Ohio, a 

9 requirement that any jail be certified or accredited? 

10 A. There's no requirement; no, sir.

11 Q. Do you know of any state that requires 

12 accreditation? 

13 A. No, I don't.

14 Q. Do you know how many states this 

15 national commission actually accredits jails in?

16 A. Again, I've never asked that question 

17 or --

18 Q. You don't know if it's 50 states or 45 

19 states or how many states? 

20 A. I have no knowledge of that.

21 Q. In addition to the ACA and the NCCHC, 

22 there are other entities that have standards; are 

23 there not for correctional medicine -- or 

24 correctional institutions? 

25 A. There are some health care 

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1 organizations, yes, I believe.

2 Q. And what are they? 

3 A. Again, I don't deal personally with 

4 those since I'm not a medical person. I'm a jail 

5 operations person.

6 Q. You ever see the standards from other 

7 national organizations? You said they were health 

8 organizations? 

9 A. Medical and health organizations, yes.

10 Q. Well, do you know of the American Jail 

11 Association? 

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is that a membership organization? 

14 A. Yes, I'm a member.

15 Q. Okay. It does not accredit jails? 

16 A. No.

17 Q. Does it have standards? 

18 A. It has standards for individual 

19 employees; it has standards for administrative, 

20 certified jail managers, certified corrections 

21 officers.

22 Q. Is there any requirement in the state 

23 of Ohio for a certification of correctional officers? 

24 A. Ohio does have a certification 

25 requirement under the Ohio Administrative Code.

Page 35

1 Q. Does Michigan

2 A. I'm not, I'm not aware. I'm not an 

3 expert on Michigan law.

4 Q. And as you sit here reviewing this 

5 case in Michigan, you don't know whether the State 

6 requires certification for correctional officers? 

7 A. I did not inquire.

8 Q. Is there a -- any administrative rules 

9 in the state of Michigan for jails or lockups? 

10 A. I believe, in conversation, yes there 

11 are administrative rules.

12 Q. In conversation with whom? 

13 A. With counsel.

14 Q. And did you ask for those? 

15 A. No, I did not.

16 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the ASA 

17 -- I'm sorry -- the ASA, American Security 

18 Association? 

19 A. I've never heard of them in my 29 

20 years of corrections.

21 Q. Yeah, you've heard of it. Do you know 

22 if public health also accredits come facilities? 

23 A. Again, that would be a medical --

24 Q. Accreditation? 

25 A. -- accreditation, not -- I'm a 

Page 36

1 operations person.

2 Q. I represent in this lawsuit eight 

3 individuals and the County of Lenawee and I am going 

4 to ask the questions relative to two types of 

5 criticisms you've raised or you've stated in this 

6 report of December 8, 2009. You, in fact, offered an 

7 opinion, didn't you, that correctional staff was 

8 deliberately indifferent in its handling of the 

9 Brenda Smith case; is that your opinion? 

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. And by, "staff," you meant 

12 correctional officers and sergeants; is that correct? 

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So why don't you tell me, from your 

15 careful and thorough review of the records in this 

16 case, what it was that Mary Neill did or didn't do 

17 that you claim was deliberately indifferent.

18 MR. HIMBAUGH: Let me just object for 

19 the record of him giving -- expressing 

20 opinions at all on deliberate indifference, 

21 but go ahead and you can answer to that --

22 MR. BODARY: Yeah. I reserve on that 

23 objection, too, but that can be addressed 

24 elsewhere. My asking the question doesn't 

25 make it objectionable.

Page 37

1 MR. FINEGOOD: You're reserving an 

2 objection to your own question. I've never 

3 heard of that before.

4 MR. HIMBAUGH: Well, I object. 

5 MR. BODARY: Actually, it is. It's 

6 allowed. My asking the question doesn't 

7 waive what (sic), otherwise, otherwise it 

8 is an objectable opinion.

9 MR. FINEGOOD: So you're objecting to 

10 your own question.

11 MR. BODARY: Yeah.

12 MR. FINEGOOD: Okay. The record 

13 should reflect.

14 MR. BODARY: Yeah.

15 A. I'm trying to get all the people in 

16 the situation so when I alluded to and included the 

17 staff, my intent in this particular situation as a 

18 condition of a particular inmate deteriorized (sic) 

19 -- or deteriorated throughout the evening. There was 

20 no update or no action taken based upon the new 

21 information as the condition deteriorated. I believe 

22 I mentioned Mary Neill, specifically. She did 

23 contact the doctor. 

24 Q. She did contact the doctor?

25 A. She contacted Dr. Stickney on 4/27/09 

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ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

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1 and I described in detail, but after that, over the 

2 next two days, she failed to follow up on anything as 

3 the individual inmate deteriorated. That's the only 

4 comment I have.

5 Q. Well, in fact, you offered the 

6 opinion, if you look at page 2 -- I'm in the bottom 

7 paragraph, fourth line down, that jail staff observed 

8 Ms. Smith begin to exhibit obvious signs of alcohol 

9 withdrawal on the afternoon of April 29, 2007; is 

10 that your opinion?

11 A. That the overview of the case, a 

12 statement of the facts as I understood `em.

13 Q. Now, when was Mary Neill there to see 

14 anything on the afternoon of April 29th? 

15 A. Okay. I'm not sure if Mary Neill was 

16 working on that particular day.

17 Q. What is it if she was working that she 

18 saw? 

19 A. Again, I'm talking about the 

20 corrections staff that was supervising the inmate on 

21 that day. I don't recall exactly who those 

22 individuals were.

23 Q. Yeah. I want you to assume Mary Neill 

24 was there that afternoon. What evidence do you have 

25 that there was a deterioration that she observed? 

Page 39

1 A. Again, the behaviors illustrated by 

2 the particular inmate in the cell was so obvious to 

3 me, the layperson, or any layperson, that her 

4 condition was deteriorating. Their responsibility 

5 was to observe her condition and her being a 

6 supervisor, I'm assuming that she would also be 

7 involved in that process. You're saying if she 

8 worked that day; I'm not sure if Mary Neill was 

9 working on the --

10 Q. So when you wrote this report after a 

11 careful and thorough review, you gave the opinion 

12 that she was deliberately indifferent even when you 

13 didn't know whether she worked that day; is that a 

14 fair statement?

15 A. Again, I didn't say her, specifically, 

16 in my opinions. I stated the staff that was involved 

17 with her supervision in the cell as her condition 

18 deteriorated, the staff that saw her.

19 Q. So you told me you didn't reference 

20 her particularly. Why don't you look at page 6, on 

21 November 2, "Did defendants act in a culpable state 

22 of mind?" Third paragraph, "Sgt. Mary Neal contacted 

23 Dr. Jeffrey Stickney on April 27, `07 and described 

24 in detail the medical condition and behavior of Mrs. 

25 Smith, but she failed to follow-up as her condition 

Page 40

1 deteriorated over the next two days." So you did, in 

2 fact -- You were, in fact, critical of her? 

3 A. Well, based upon my review, I received 

4 no other information that she actually took any other 

5 action as a supervisor, so --

6 Q. But you said, "over two days." In 

7 fact, your opinion is that alcohol withdrawal 

8 exhibited signs, obvious signs on the afternoon of 

9 the 29th. That's on the second page of your letter; 

10 isn't it? She began to exhibit obvious signs of 

11 alcohol withdrawal on the afternoon of the 29th? 

12 A. Correct, she got worse. When she came 

13 in, Mary Neill had enough information to know that 

14 she was an alcoholic. She had some issues in the 

15 intake process. She called for assistance, called 

16 for some direction. She continued to deteriorate 

17 then over the next two days.

18 Q. Well, but you can't tell me which 

19 deterioration Sgt. Neill saw on the afternoon of the 

20 29th; can you? 

21 A. I have no information.

22 Q. In fact, in the discussion of your 

23 page 3, third paragraph, middle, you say, "The 

24 ignoring or failing to take corrective action for an 

25 inmate's serious medical condition would amount to 

Page 41

1 'deliverate indifference' to the health and safety of 

2 the inmate." Do you see that? 

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. So ignoring or failing to take 

5 corrective action; is that right? 

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. When Mary Neill called Dr. Stickney 

8 was she ignoring the inmate? 

9 A. At that time, no.

10 Q. Did she fail to take corrective 

11 action? 

12 A. She called the doctor, but my comment 

13 was that you alluded to was that I could find nothing 

14 in the record that she followed up after that point.

15 Q. Right. And you haven't read the 

16 depositions of Wendy Vanderpool, the intake officer 

17 or Intake Officer Adam Ondrovick, as to when this 

18 patient got worse? 

19 A. Again, no, I have not.

20 Q. All right. You're not a medical 

21 doctor --

22 A. No, I'm not.

23 Q. Have you ever taken classes in regard 

24 to alcohol withdrawal syndromes or delirium tremens?

25 A. I have received training over the 

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1 years numerous times on those conditions.

2 Q. Now, from that training, do you 

3 understand that a deterioration to DT's could happen 

4 suddenly? 

5 A. It could happen -- It depends on the 

6 individual patient.

7 Q. Changes from patient-to-patient? 

8 A. Yes, it does.

9 Q. All right. Hallucinations in the 

10 spectrum of withdrawal symptoms into delirium 

11 tremens, hallucinations can be transient? 

12 A. Again, it changes from 

13 patient-to-patient.

14 Q. Yeah, but once hallucinations occur, 

15 they don't have to continue; they can be 

16 intermittent? 

17 A. Again, I'm not an expert on that, but 

18 based upon the training --

19 Q. So you don't know whether or not -- 

20 Sorry. I interrupted you. Based upon the -- Go 

21 ahead.

22 A. What we're trained to look for is what 

23 the individuals can suffer when they're going through 

24 alcoholic or chemical withdrawal.

25 Q. All right. Now, did Mary Neill write 

Page 43

1 pass-on reports on this inmate at the end of every 

2 shift?

3 A. I believe there were some pass -- I 

4 don't remember who, there were some pass-on notes 

5 made from supervisor-to-supervisor about the 

6 condition. I remember the one, specifically, by Sgt. 

7 Dye, I think.

8 Q. Now, I'm directing your attention 

9 right now to Mary Neill, so when you say she failed 

10 to follow up, are you saying she didn't write a 

11 pass-on report at the end of her shift? 

12 A. No.

13 Q. Preparing a pass-on report that 

14 indicates that an inmate is having alcohol DT's and 

15 communicating that to the next shift is not ignoring 

16 the problem; is it? 

17 A. No.

18 Q. In fact, it's taking action; isn't it? 

19 A. It is taking action on what you know 

20 at that time.

21 Q. Paul Dye -- Well, first of all, were 

22 you aware that Mary Neill gave medications to this 

23 inmate, the specific Benzodiazepine or Librium that 

24 had been prescribed for her by Dr. Stickney? 

25 A. I don't recall if she administered it 

Page 44

1 or not. I don't recall that.

2 Q. Well, wouldn't it be important for you 

3 to know if Mary Neill was ignoring an inmate whether 

4 she actually gave medicine at 10:00 a.m., in the 

5 morning on the 28th and 10:00 a.m., on the morning, 

6 on the 29th? 

7 A. Again, I said, I don't recall.

8 Q. Right. Let's pretend she did. If she 

9 gave the medication as prescribed, those two 

10 mornings, is that ignoring the patient or failing to 

11 take action?

12 A. That's taking some action, yes.

13 MR. FINEGOOD: What about not giving 

14 it to her on the night of the -- that she 

15 was booked; why don't you ask him that 

16 question.

17 Q. Well, did you check to see if the 

18 patient -- if the inmate got Libriuim on the night 

19 she as booked? 

20 A. Did I check? 

21 Q. Yeah.

22 A. There was some indication in the 

23 record that she did not receive medication during her 

24 time of incarceration --

25 Q. I'm not -- Your counsel wanted to 

Page 45

1 interject here which isn't his right, by the way, but 

2 I'm gonna do this: If Mary Neill hadn't called Dr. 

3 Stickney, would this inmate have received Librium, 

4 the drug to counter withdrawal symptoms? 

5 A. I would assume it would have to be 

6 prescribed by a doctor.

7 Q. And a call had to be made and that was 

8 done by Mary Neill; correct? 

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that's not ignoring the problem; 

11 that's taking action.

12 A. That's taking action, right.

13 Q. Once the doctor sets the plan of 

14 treatment, is it appropriate for the correctional 

15 officers to follow his orders? 

16 A. Yes, unless circumstances change.

17 Q. Circumstances changed for Paul Dye on 

18 the evening of the 29th and what did he do about it? 

19 A. He did call the doctor on the 29th.

20 Q. Is that ignoring the condition? 

21 A. Well, the conditions changed, but they 

22 also continued to change throughout the evening.

23 Q. Answer my question. Is that ignoring 

24 the problem? 

25 MR. FINEGOOD: Okay. The objection is 

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1 -- The question is vague.

2 MR. BODARY: That's a simple question.

3 MR. FINEGOOD: You have to give him a 

4 time element, okay. Obviously, he's 

5 telling you that situations change over 

6 time, so why don't you be more specific. 

7 At 9:18? 

8 MR. BODARY: I was plenty specific.

9 Q. Was just calling the doctor on the 

10 29th ignoring the condition? 

11 A. It depends, again, on when it was done 

12 and what information you had at that point in time, 

13 how long it went on.

14 Q. Are you aware of anything that Sgt. 

15 Dye did before the call to Dr. Stickney to protect 

16 this inmate? 

17 A. I know the staff had moved her to the 

18 observation cell.

19 Q. What staff moved her? 

20 A. The supervisory staff.

21 Q. Yeah. Was that Paul Dye? 

22 A. I can't recall who --

23 Q. You listened to his phone call, didn't 

24 you, to Dr. Stickney? 

25 A. Yes.

Page 47

1 Q. All right. And in the phone call he 

2 indicated he moved -- it took three people to do it 

3 and he moved her? 

4 A. I don't recall those words, but --

5 Q. Assume that he's the one who moved her 

6 and he moved her to protect her from injuring 

7 herself, was that ignoring the patient? 

8 A. No.

9 Q. Is that being proactive to protect her 

10 from injury? 

11 A. That's being reactive to what he sees. 

12 Proactive is different than reactive.

13 Q. All right. Was Mary Neill's phone 

14 call to the doctor to get medication proactive? 

15 A. It was reactive to what she saw.

16 Q. What did she see? 

17 A. She saw an individual when she came in 

18 that had some issue and history with alcohol, but she 

19 --

20 Q. But -- I'm sorry, go ahead.

21 A. She had some concerns.

22 Q. All right. So acting on the concern 

23 and getting medication before obvious signs of 

24 withdrawal was being proactive; isn't that true? 

25 A. Again, I would call that and consider 

Page 48

1 that to be reactive to what information she saw, but 

2 yes. The purpose of giving medicine is to prevent 

3 something, so the doctor was being proactive.

4 Q. Well, the correctional officers don't 

5 know the dosing of Librium; do they? 

6 A. No, I would assume not.

7 Q. In fact, you wouldn't want 

8 correctional officers including, sergeants to make 

9 decisions to alter the medications as ordered by the 

10 doctor; would you? 

11 A. Of course not.

12 Q. Well, Paul Dye then, did Paul Dye 

13 recognize that this inmate was having withdrawal 

14 symptoms from alcohol? 

15 A. If I recall correctly, he was very 

16 descriptive in what he saw and told the doctor.

17 Q. Did he make note of that condition on 

18 his pass-out report, the first shift that he served? 

19 A. I believe so, yes --

20 Q. And the second shift that he served? 

21 A. I don't recall the second one.

22 MR. FINEGOOD: What date are you 

23 talking about? 

24 A. What date you talking about? 

25 Q. Well, I want you to -- Do you know 

Page 49

1 what hours that Sgt. Dye worked? 

2 A. He was in the evening hours --

3 Q. Let's assume it's 7:00 p.m., 7:00 p.m. 

4 to 7:00 in the morning, so the night of the 28th and 

5 29th, but the night of the 29th to the 30th, I want 

6 you to assume he worked from 7:00 p.m. until 3:00 

7 a.m. I'm sorry; that's wrong. He's actually there 

8 `til 7:00 a.m., on the 29th, but the night of the 

9 29th to the 30th, he's from 7:00 p.m. to 3:00 a.m. 

10 Is that the first you've been aware that those were 

11 his hours? 

12 A. I did not see any hours schedules or 

13 staffing.

14 Q. Right. So did Paul Dye write a 

15 pass-on report that referenced alcohol withdrawal or 

16 DT's for this inmate on each of the shifts as they, 

17 as they ended and went to a morning shift? 

18 A. I recall one. I don't remember --

19 Q. Well, if he is ignoring the inmate, 

20 wouldn't it be important whether he wrote and 

21 communicated to the next shift whether or not he 

22 believed there were DT's? 

23 A. I didn't say he was ignoring the 

24 inmate.

25 Q. No. I'm asking. So wouldn't you look 

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1 to see if he made the report on each of the ends of 

2 the shift? 

3 A. I didn't say he was ignoring the 

4 inmate and didn't make those particular --

5 Q. What you said was you saw that he 

6 wrote it once.

7 A. What I recall was -- I recall one 

8 entry.

9 Q. Are you saying that's the only entry 

10 made? 

11 A. Again, I can't say that because I 

12 don't recall.

13 Q. Are you familiar with incident reports 

14 at that jail, what their used for? There's a term, 

15 incident report; do you know what it is as it applies 

16 to this jail?

17 A. Every jail has a term they call 

18 incident or a reporting mechanism of some kind.

19 Q. Some incidences are not medical. 

20 There can be safety and security issues within a jail 

21 that don't relate to medical conditions; correct? 

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Would you know what the regular 

24 process was for printed copies of incident reports, 

25 who they go to at the Lenawee County Jail, in 2007? 

Page 51

1 A. I know they -- the policy requires 

2 them to complete them and be descriptive in what they 

3 write and -- I don't remember the whole policy. I 

4 remember reading the particular requirements for the 

5 documentation of those incidents.

6 Q. You would be aware that Paul Dye made 

7 two incident reports related to her medical 

8 conditions, Brenda Sue Smith's? 

9 A. I recall seeing the computer generated 

10 document, I believe.

11 Q. Do you know whether or not that goes 

12 to the next sergeant, that report? 

13 A. It should be with correctional staff 

14 --

15 Q. And if it was, that's not a procedure 

16 that's deliberately indifferent; is it? 

17 A. Again, my --

18 MR. FINEGOOD: Assumes facts not in 

19 evidence.

20 A. I'm not familiar with what their 

21 system, if it's a computer-based system, whether they 

22 print `em out and hand `em out, I'm not aware of 

23 those mechanism and I wasn't aware at that time. 

24 Q. So is it your understanding that Paul 

25 Dye saw a change in this inmate that caused him to 

Page 52

1 call Dr. Stickney? 

2 A. I would assume yes, based upon his 

3 description I guess he had concerns about the inmate.

4 Q. Is making a call to Dr. Stickney when 

5 he observed the change ignoring the inmate's 

6 condition? 

7 A. I don't know when he made the call, 

8 how long he observed or what time period he observed 

9 before he made the call or what happened after he 

10 made -- Again, I know he made the call and described 

11 her condition.

12 Q. All right. Well, you've never been 

13 given a copy of the phone bill from the doctor's 

14 office as to when the call was made? 

15 A. No.

16 Q. Okay. You listened to Paul Dye's 

17 voice in his conversation with Dr. Stickney? 

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And Paul Dye reported, did he not, 

20 that the inmate was having bad withdrawal? 

21 A. Bad or severe or something, he said.

22 Q. Really bad hallucinations; do you 

23 remember that; that she was kind of violent, trying 

24 to get out of her cell.

25 A. Yes.

Page 53

1 Q. That she was very agitated? 

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That she hadn't eaten lunch or dinner? 

4 A. Yes --

5 Q. And that she was banking on the wall? 

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. And was that ignoring the 

8 condition of the patient -- or the inmate? 

9 A. No. Again, that was sharing 

10 information with the doctor that he observed.

11 Q. Well, in fact, that's taking 

12 corrective action; isn't it? He was talking to the 

13 doctor that prescribed the medication.

14 A. That's taking an incident report --

15 Q. All right. And that's not deliberate 

16 indifference?

17 A. Again, my concerns were after the fact 

18 of when she started to deteriorate and how she was 

19 treated by the staff or ignored by the staff. 

20 Q. She had deteriorated according to Sgt. 

21 Dye's opinion when he made the phone call; do you 

22 understand that? 

23 A. Again, I don't know that for a fact. 

24 You're saying that, but again, he saw enough to 

25 concern him to call the doctor.

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JEFF EISER MARCH 1, 2010

ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

Page 54

1 Q. Why is it you claim or how can you 

2 claim there was some further deterioration? 

3 A. Again, based upon what I reviewed and 

4 --

5 Q. Well, what was it that showed you it 

6 deteriorated after Dye's conversation? 

7 A. There were other descriptives by 

8 correction officers, about the behavior of her --

9 Q. Which correction officer? 

10 A. I thought it was Wendy Vanderpool. 

11 Q. Okay. And you haven't read the 

12 deposition testimony of Nurse -- or Officer 

13 Vanderpool? 

14 A. No.

15 Q. Are you aware that Vanderpool said 

16 there was no real change in the inmate's condition 

17 from when Paul Dye called until 3:00 o'clock, when 

18 Paul Dye was off? 

19 A. I haven't reviewed his deposition.

20 Q. If that's true, then Paul Dye did not 

21 fail to act during further deterioration? 

22 MR. FINEGOOD: I'm going to place an 

23 objection. It assumes facts not in 

24 evidence

25 A. And again, based upon the surveillance 

Page 55

1 videos that we also viewed, I believe, of the 

2 behaviors in the cell, the individual acting out and 

3 the individual doing those kind of activities, to a 

4 trained -- I mean to an experienced correctional 

5 person, it was deteriorating, I felt. 

6 Q. Well, you're not talking about a video 

7 that starts at 7:00 o'clock the next morning. The 

8 video you're talking about is 7:00 a.m, on the 

9 morning of the 30th, but I wasn't asking about that.

10 A. Okay.

11 Q. My question to you was if Wendy 

12 Vanderpool, the intake officer closest to that cell, 

13 one look contact through the video camera, said that 

14 this inmate's condition didn't worsen between the 

15 time Paul Dye called and when Paul Dye went off shift 

16 at 3:00 o'clock. If that's true, then Paul Dye 

17 wasn't deliberately indifferent and didn't ignore 

18 this inmate --

19 MR. FINEGOOD: Object. Assumes facts 

20 --

21 A. Exactly. Again, I only based my 

22 opinion upon what I perceived as being the facts at 

23 that time. If you change the facts, I reserve the 

24 right to change my opinion, yes.

25 Q. Yeah. But you never saw a video from 

Page 56

1 3:00 o'clock in the morning? 

2 A. I can't remember. The video, 

3 obviously, was damaged also after -- I didn't view it 

4 again. I couldn't view it again.

5 Q. You viewed it the first time? 

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. In its entirety, before you prepared 

8 your report? 

9 A. Yes. That was a while ago, yes.

10 Q. So I'm going to show you that part of 

11 the report that started at the bottom of page 2. I'm 

12 looking at the very last part of the sentence. The 

13 jail records indicate that, "Her condition continued 

14 to deteriorate throughout the evening and it was 

15 noted that the video observation of the cell ceased 

16 at 09 COLON 19 hours, military time; right. Is that 

17 what it says? 

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. All right. So you, after watching 

20 this video, said that the video ceased at 9:19 in the 

21 morning? 

22 A. There's something where there wasn't 

23 video from, like, 9:19 `til 9:50 or something. There 

24 was --

25 Q. You watched the video. Are claiming 

Page 57

1 there wasn't an image from 9:19? Let me deal with 

2 this first of all. Are you sure that's the case --

3 MR. FINEGOOD: Objection --

4 MR. BODARY: I'm going to withdraw the 

5 question. I'm withdrawing the question.

6 Q. Are you sure that's the case or did 

7 you, looking at the timeline on the death 

8 investigation, look at two numbers there, recording 

9 events --

10 A. The times are messed up, yeah.

11 Q. Okay. Let me --

12 A. It may have been --

13 Q. All right. Can I see your copy of the 

14 -- Do you have the death investigation handy, sir? 

15 A. Let me look at the table of contents 

16 here. If I can find the page. 

17 Q. On page 11, on the Bates stamp of the 

18 investigation, noting that on page 10, it started at 

19 7:00 o'clock, there are times given here. Do you see 

20 that there is an entry, 9:19? 

21 MR. FINEGOOD: That's page 12; isn't 

22 it? 

23 A. The last movement by Brenda --

24 Q. Yeah. And what's the next entry? 

25 A. 9:50.

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ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

Page 58

1 Q. So you looked at that and thought that 

2 the camera hadn't taken images between 9:19 and 9:50; 

3 is that what you did, sir? 

4 A. There's no entry -- no observation of 

5 her noted between 9:19 and 9:50, yeah.

6 Q. So if you look, then, at your report 

7 on page 3, in the same paragraph that said the video 

8 observation of cell ceased at 9:19, five lines down 

9 it says, "The video surveillance was initiated again 

10 by jail staff at 9:50 hours."

11 A. I think I had that question and I even 

12 discussed with counsel about that particular time 

13 frame and, for some reason -- Again, I don't recall 

14 exactly -- there wasn't --

15 Q. There wasn't what? 

16 A. There wasn't a video record during 

17 that time period. 

18 Q. So your memory is that when you looked 

19 at the video, there was no image or is it possible 

20 you just looked at those two entries and decided that 

21 --

22 A. No.

23 Q. -- it had stopped and been restarted? 

24 A. No. For some reason, I believe there 

25 was some missing time there, where the machine didn't 

Page 59

1 work.

2 Q. So did you think they weren't 

3 observing her during that time? 

4 A. The video, I said. 

5 Q. No. I'm asking you.

6 A. The staff was there.

7 Q. Are you saying that the camera wasn't 

8 showing the inmate in that time frame? 

9 A. That was my mental note.

10 Q. So when you came to an opinion where 

11 someone ignored here, you were of the belief that 

12 there was some 31 minutes where there was no camera 

13 operating in the cell; is that right? 

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Do you know that you can't turn the 

16 camera off in that system? 

17 A. Again, I have no knowledge of how the 

18 system works.

19 Q. Well, if that's the case, that would 

20 be news to you; is that right? If that's the case, 

21 that the camera can't be turned off, it operated the 

22 whole time, that would be news to you? 

23 A. For some reason, I have a mental note 

24 that there was some video and we have discussed that.

25 Q. You and the lawyer talked about it? 

Page 60

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. Because you were of the belief they 

3 didn't have the camera on? 

4 A. Again, I don't know if the camera was 

5 on or not, the recording during that time period.

6 Q. You said the video surveillance was 

7 initiated again.

8 A. It may have been a bad choice of 

9 words. Again, in my summary, I'm trying to verbalize 

10 what my understanding of that was.

11 Q. Right. You understand, don't you, 

12 under allegations of deprivation of Civil Rights that 

13 each officer is only held responsible for what he 

14 knew at the time?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. There's no collectiveness of officers; 

17 and if one officer knows something on day three, it 

18 doesn't mean that the next officer knows that same 

19 thing during a shift on day four and you have to look 

20 at what facts they know; don't you? 

21 A. You have to look at the process of 

22 sharing information, what the policy requires --

23 Q. So in Dr. Stickney's conversation with 

24 Paul Dye, didn't Dr. Stickney indicate the medication 

25 was good? 

Page 61

1 A. I believe he did, yes.

2 Q. That was medication that was 

3 prescribed on the 27th, from the call by Mary Neill; 

4 correct? 

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. So there was no change in medication; 

7 correct? 

8 A. I don't believe so.

9 Q. All right. Do you understand that one 

10 of the risks of alcohol withdrawal can be seizures? 

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. This patient was on anti-seizure 

13 medicine; did you know that? 

14 A. I remember reading something about one 

15 of the medications she was on in her chart was 

16 anti-seizure medication.

17 Q. Right. So do you understand that 

18 Officer Neil and Officer Dye understood she was 

19 getting medications, Librium, to counteract her 

20 withdrawal and anti-seizure medications to reduce the 

21 risk of seizures? 

22 A. I don't know what Sgt. Neil and Sgt. 

23 Dye knew. You ask a --

24 Q. Why wouldn't they know what medication 

25 she was getting? 

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Page 62

1 A. I can't speak for them.

2 Q. Were you assuming they didn't know? 

3 A. I'm assuming they talked to the doctor 

4 and that the doctor had told them.

5 Q. And don't you remember in the 

6 conversation that Sgt. Dye told them that she had 

7 received her anti-seizure medications and the times 

8 in which she received them? 

9 A. Again, I don't recall that, 

10 specifically.

11 Q. Isn't that important for you to know 

12 whether or not Sgt. Dye is ignoring or taking care of 

13 the inmate? 

14 A. His actions absolutely would be --

15 Q. And his statements; correct? 

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, observe -- Dr. Stickney 

18 indicated, did he not, in the phone conversation 

19 that, hopefully, another day will do her good. Do 

20 you recall that statement? 

21 A. I recall a statement like that, yes.

22 Q. So, in fact, Dr. Stickney, in the 

23 phone call said the medications were good and that, 

24 hopefully, another day would do her some good and he 

25 said to keep her safe and monitor her; is that your 

Page 63

1 recollection? 

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Putting her in a padded cell kept her 

4 safe from self injury; didn't it? 

5 A. Putting her in an observation cell 

6 was, yes.

7 Q. Was an appropriate step? 

8 A. Appropriate step.

9 Q. It was not ignoring her; it was taking 

10 care of her?

11 A. Yeah, right.

12 Q. So what happened between that phone 

13 call at 9:14 p.m. and 3:00 o'clock in the morning, 

14 when Paul Dye left? What other information did he 

15 have that you claim shows that he was deliberately 

16 indifferent? 

17 A. Again, if the situation deteriorated 

18 --

19 Q. If.

20 A. If. You gave me a situation and a 

21 question. If it deteriorated, he has a duty to 

22 subsequently do something.

23 Q. But you're not claiming it did. You 

24 don't know if it deteriorated between 9:00 p.m. and 

25 3:00 a.m. in the morning; do you? 

Page 64

1 MR. FINEGOOD: I object to the form of 

2 the question. First of all, you're 

3 assuming that it didn't deteriorate --

4 MR. BODARY: I have testimony to that 

5 effect. This gentleman has offered the 

6 opinion that he was deliberately 

7 indifferent because of the deterioration.

8 Q. So I'm asking, you've now said, "if," 

9 but you can't show me that it did in that time 

10 interval; can you? 

11 A. I can only base my opinion about what 

12 I thought and what I knew at that time.

13 Q. All right. And what you were doing is 

14 you were looking at the video and what she was doing 

15 in the morning in terms of her activities; is that 

16 what I understood you to say a few questions ago? 

17 A. Well, it's a combination of the 

18 observations and the information from all the parties 

19 and him being the supervisor, he should have been 

20 aware of what the person on observation in a 

21 observation cell was doing.

22 Q. He should have been aware, whether or 

23 not he knows.

24 A. He should be aware -- If you put 

25 somebody in observation, you should be aware of the 

Page 65

1 condition, routinely.

2 Q. How many floors to the jail at 

3 Lenawee? How many floors are there in that jail? 

4 A. I've never been to Lenawee County 

5 jail.

6 Q. Right. Does the sergeant, Paul Dye, 

7 have responsibilities on a floor, other than the 

8 holding floor? 

9 A. Again, I don't know how many sergeants 

10 are on duty at that time. I know he was involved 

11 with this particular inmate.

12 Q. And by the way, Hamilton County, how 

13 many employees do you have there or had there when 

14 you last worked?

15 A. We had approximately 600 employees, 

16 422 of which were correctional officers.

17 Q. Who were the others? 

18 A. Correctional supervisors, support 

19 staff, clerical staff, classification staff, data 

20 entry staff, personnel positions, administration.

21 Q. How many correctional officers were 

22 employed at Lenawee? 

23 A. I was not given that information.

24 Q. How many sergeants? 

25 A. I was not given that information.

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ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

Page 66

1 Q. All right. Again, I represent eight 

2 people in this litigation. I've taken you through 

3 Mary Dye and -- Mary Neill and Paul Dye and assuming 

4 that Paul Dye was -- I'm sorry. I've tried to elicit 

5 from you your opinions, but now, I want to go to Adam 

6 Ondrovick. What was Adam Ondrovick's role in this 

7 case? 

8 A. Again, that particular name, I have 

9 not read the deposition, so I'm not --

10 Q. Did you read the records to look for 

11 the names of the defendants? 

12 A. Yes. I don't recall.

13 Q. So as you sit here and as you prepared 

14 your report, you were not thinking that Adam 

15 Ondrovick, specifically, Adam Ondrovick, had ignored 

16 or not taken care of this inmate? 

17 A. I don't recall that name; no, sir.

18 Q. You don't know what he did or what his 

19 job description was at this point? 

20 A. No.

21 Q. At your facility do the intake -- are 

22 the intake officers the entry level? 

23 A. Intake officers are the first officers 

24 that the inmate meet when he enters the facility.

25 Q. By job description, in your location, 

Page 67

1 are intake officers not to have physical contacts 

2 with inmates -- physical contact with inmates? 

3 A. No, just the opposite. They pat `em 

4 down and bring `em in.

5 Q. All right. I want you to assume that 

6 James Craig was a sergeant and that James Craig was 

7 aware that this inmate was suffering DT's and that 

8 the doctor had been spoken to the previous night, 10 

9 hours ago and that the medications was to be 

10 continued and she was to be observed. What was it 

11 that Sgt. Craig did that you claim ignored this 

12 patient's condition? 

13 MR. FINEGOOD: I'm going to place an 

14 objection. The question assumes facts not 

15 in evidence. There's no evidence that 

16 James Craig ever received that information 

17 because there was no information in the 

18 pass-on book from Eric Westgate to James 

19 Craig.

20 Q. Now, going back to my question, sir, I 

21 want you to assume that James Craig became the 

22 sergeant in charge, the officer in charge at 7:00 

23 a.m., in the morning, on the 3th and that he was 

24 aware the doctor had been called, that this patient 

25 was on medication and she was to be observed. You 

Page 68

1 tell me what it was that James Craig did that ignored 

2 or didn't take care of this inmate.

3 MR. FINEGOOD: It assumes facts not in 

4 evidence.

5 MR. BODARY: You got the objection.

6 MR. FINEGOOD: Objection is --

7 A. I have no opinion on James Craig that 

8 particular night.

9 Q. It's different to look at an inmate, 

10 who's having withdrawal without knowledge of what the 

11 treatment plan is and looking at an inmate who's 

12 under treatment; isn't it? 

13 A. I'm not sure what you're asking.

14 Q. If you're a correctional officer and 

15 you've been told the medication is good and another 

16 day in the jail may do her some good and you see the 

17 inmate having withdrawal symptoms, shouldn't the 

18 correctional officer follow the directions of the 

19 doctor that ordered that? 

20 A. You have to follow directions, but you 

21 also to have services (sic) that change constantly. 

22 You can't just stay and follow military order without 

23 some discretion. You always have discretion to look 

24 at the situation and adjust as it changes.

25 Q. Right. But what you're talking about, 

Page 69

1 discretion is a judgment call; isn't that correct? 

2 A. It's a duty to adjust.

3 Q. Excuse me. Discretion refers to 

4 judgment; it's discretionary. You can do something 

5 or you can do something else; correct.

6 A. You have to have information to make 

7 those judgments, yes.

8 Q. But that's what they are? That's what 

9 they are is judgments; correct? 

10 A. Absolutely.

11 Q. And so an officer who believes that an 

12 inmate has not had food, who writes a written 

13 incident report and puts it in the nurse's box for 

14 her to see the next day, that's a judgment that he 

15 made of the way to communicate that problem to the 

16 nurse; correct? 

17 A. It's a decision he made, yes.

18 Q. But it's also discretionary. He could 

19 have done something else; he decided to do it that 

20 way; correct? 

21 A. Well, it's discretionary unless the 

22 policy requires him to do it. There may have been a 

23 policy or procedure that requires him, again, to do 

24 that particular function.

25 Q. You can't write a policy or protocol 

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1 for every event; can you? 

2 A. No.

3 Q. When you reviewed the policies -- Let 

4 me go back to that issue. But if, in fact, he 

5 elected to put an incident report in the nurse's box, 

6 knowing she would see that incident report and the 

7 inmate, that's a discretionary judgment by that 

8 officer to communicate in that fashion; correct? 

9 A. Again, I don't know if it's 

10 discretionary or if it was required of him to do it 

11 that way, but he did do it.

12 Q. Yeah.

13 A. Okay. I know he did it. I can't 

14 answer the other part `cause I don't know what the 

15 requirements are.

16 Q. Right. Bernice Baker. Bernice Baker 

17 is another one of my clients. Do you know what role 

18 she had in this case? 

19 A. I knew she was an intake person.

20 Q. Um-hum.

21 A. The intake officer.

22 Q. She was an intake officer. It was her 

23 first day of employment on April 30th; did you know 

24 that? 

25 A. No, I did not.

Page 71

1 Q. What is it you claim she did that 

2 ignored this inmate? 

3 A. Again, I don't recall Bernice Baker 

4 being in direct observation responsibility for the 

5 inmate. The processed her into the facility, I 

6 guess, on her first day --

7 Q. I don't want you to guess. I want you 

8 to assume that Bernice Baker did not work on the day 

9 she was booked in on the 27th, but Bernice Baker came 

10 to report the first day of her work at 7:00 o'clock, 

11 on the 30th of April; that she'd never worked in law 

12 enforcement or in correctional facilities prior to 

13 that moment, 7:00 a.m., on April 30th, and that there 

14 was another intake officer there, already doing the 

15 duties of an intake officer; all right. You got me 

16 so far? 

17 A. Uh-huh.

18 Q. And that she was asked to watch the 

19 screen to see that the inmate didn't hurt herself on 

20 the video that morning while she was in that holding 

21 cell. Is that deliberate indifference? 

22 A. That would be, obviously, unusual or 

23 obviously dangerous to the inmate. Yes, she needs to 

24 do something about it.

25 Q. She's in a padded cell; correct? The 

Page 72

1 inmate's in a padded cell?

2 A. I don't know if it was a padded cell 

3 or not; it was an observation cell. I don't know if 

4 it was a padded cell.

5 Q. So you didn't know that it was padded? 

6 A. I didn't know it was padded.

7 Q. All right. So you didn't know that 

8 there was no bunk in the cell or no commode in the 

9 cell which she could fall or hurt herself on? You 

10 didn't know --

11 A. Well, through the video.

12 Q. So you did observe it through the 

13 video, but you forgot? 

14 A. Again, the padded issue --

15 Q. A person, the first day on the job, as 

16 an intake officer, who has been told that this is 

17 someone going through DT's, in a padded cell, would 

18 not, necessarily, have the knowledge of the 

19 seriousness of the condition; would they? 

20 A. Well, if they can put somebody in that 

21 responsibility, you have an obligation to make sure 

22 they're trained or what they're looking for and 

23 what's normal and what's not normal. It's for the 

24 correctional officers to figure out, the obvious, 

25 yes, but what is normal and what's not normal and 

Page 73

1 then take action.

2 Q. In the first half hour when she's 

3 there with another person acting as intake officer 

4 she's supposed to know this; is that your position?

5 MR. FINEGOOD: The organization -- 

6 A. I don't know what -- She took the 

7 responsibility of a corrections officer. I'm not 

8 sure what they told her her job was, what she's 

9 supposed to do, but again, if she sees something that 

10 is not normal or abnormal she should, at least, ask 

11 the question, pass the information on to somebody.

12 Q. How does she know what's abnormal -- 

13 normal or abnormal for someone going through 

14 withdrawal?

15 A. Again, the padded cell. Again, the 

16 jail put her in that position. I'm assuming they 

17 would give her some orientation or some training. 

18 Q. This is before her orientation, so she 

19 hadn't yet met with the sergeant to talk about 

20 orientation to the unit. How is she going to know.

21 A. Well, again, anything would be obvious 

22 to a layperson, I think she would need to respond to. 

23 Someone --

24 Q. Well, that's why I asked you the 

25 question. If it's just a stranger to the 

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1 circumstance that looked at it and didn't know this 

2 person was on medication, two types of medications 

3 and didn't know that the doctor, within 12 hours 

4 prior to that had said she's on good medication, just 

5 keep her. That's a different circumstance; isn't it, 

6 and the correctional officer is there, in the setting 

7 in which they've been medically managing this inmate 

8 and watching her. Those are different circumstances; 

9 aren't they? 

10 A. Again, you base your opinion based 

11 upon the circumstances that exist at that time and 

12 whatever she saw, she had an obligation to, at least, 

13 observe and make some -- You mentioned discretion 

14 before -- make some decision based upon that.

15 Q. But she's -- First of all, if Bernice 

16 Baker, who had never worked in a health care 

17 circumstance or in correctional institutions before 

18 did not know what could happen with alcohol 

19 withdrawal or what the potential risk of DT's is on 

20 the first day of employment, she's not chargeable 

21 with ignoring a serious -- a known serious medical 

22 condition; is she?

23 MR. FINEGOOD: I'm going to object. 

24 It assumes facts not in evidence --

25 A. Again, I'm not sure what she knew, 

Page 75

1 what she didn't knew (sic), but as a --

2 Q. I'm asking you to assume that she did 

3 not know.

4 A. That the jail administrator put 

5 somebody in that position is a mistake.

6 Q. What position? 

7 A. The position to be observing somebody, 

8 who may be going through a medical condition or a 

9 medical deterioration --

10 Q. Are you of the opinion -- I'm sorry. 

11 Go ahead.

12 A. -- and no direction as to what to do.

13 Q. All right. Well, she was told to 

14 observe and report what she saw, but you're claiming 

15 that even though she hasn't had a minute's 

16 orientation at this jail that she could be 

17 deliberately indifferent to a known serious medical 

18 condition? You're not claiming that; are you? 

19 A. I'm claiming the fact that she had a 

20 duty to say something or describe exactly what they 

21 told her to do.

22 Q. All right. What is it that Eric 

23 Westgate did or didn't do that you claim is 

24 deliberate indifference or ignoring the 

25 circumstances? 

Page 76

1 A. Again, I haven't read Mr. Westgate's 

2 deposition.

3 Q. All right. Well, do you understand 

4 that it's important to get the facts right when 

5 reviewing the matter because if you get the facts 

6 right, your opinions could be wrong -- or if you get 

7 the facts wrong, your opinions can be wrong? 

8 A. Opinions are based upon the facts that 

9 you have at the time, absolutely.

10 Q. Right. And if you have inaccurate 

11 facts, it may cause you to come to an improper 

12 conclusion? 

13 A. Yes, and if the facts and 

14 circumstances change and information changes, it can 

15 change your opinion.

16 Q. All right. I want to show you that on 

17 the overview of your case, where you said that in the 

18 phone conversation with Sgt. Dye, quote, "Dr. 

19 Stickney stated the nurse --

20 MR. FINEGOOD: What are we referring 

21 to? 

22 MR. BODARY: Page 2, Overview of the 

23 Case, Exhibit F.

24 MR. FINEGOOD: Okay, hold on.

25 Q. In which you say, QUOTE, Dr. Stickney 

Page 77

1 stated...the nurse would follow up in the morning 

2 PERIOD, END QUOTE. Where'd you get that? 

3 A. I believe he said, if I remember his 

4 conversation about have the nurse -- what was the 

5 name -- Bonita, I think it was, Mason or somebody -- 

6 follow up.

7 Q. He didn't say morning; did he? He 

8 didn't say morning; did he?

9 A. I believe he said tomorrow.

10 Q. Well, tomorrow is not morning; is it? 

11 A. Well, it could be in the morning. 

12 Again, I only got -- I can pull the transcript out, 

13 but I don't remember the exact words.

14 Q. Well, you have the transcript here. 

15 I'm contesting the accuracy of the transcript, but 

16 the word, morning, doesn't appear in it, sir. Why 

17 did you put morning down there?

18 A. That was my interpretation of it when 

19 I read it.

20 Q. Well, that's unfair if that's not the 

21 case; is it? If that's not what he said, follow up 

22 in the morning, that's unfair; isn't it, to those 

23 that communicated? 

24 A. I'd be happy to look at that again.

25 Q. All right. And you'd be wrong if it 

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ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

Page 78

1 didn't say morning; correct? 

2 A. It would not be accurate; correct.

3 MR. FINEGOOD: What if he testified in 

4 his deposition that he seen him in the 

5 a.m., would that be okay, Jim? 

6 MR. BODARY: Is there some rule in the 

7 Federal Rules that I missed somewhere that 

8 you're allowed to ask me questions and I 

9 respond because his correction was not 

10 that.

11 Q. But we'll let that -- You asked to see 

12 the transcript. You asked to see the deposition of 

13 Dr. Stickney. 

14 A. I believe I'm going to read all the 

15 depositions that are available.

16 Q. Why am I taking your deposition today, 

17 under oath, if you've not finished your review? 

18 MR. FINEGOOD: Stickney's deposition 

19 has not been transcribed yet.

20 MR. BODARY: Excuse me, sir. I'm 

21 asking this witness -- 

22 Q. First of all, you charge a thousand 

23 dollars a day for trial; is that right? 

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And a trial can take the entire day? 

Page 79

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. You charge $1200 for depositions, 

3 regardless of whether they take a full day; is that 

4 right? 

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And you're charging not $200 an hour, 

7 like you do for other functions here, but a flat fee 

8 of $1200 for the day for depositions --

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. -- whether it takes three hours, 

11 three-and-a-half or two hours; correct? 

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. And before you prepared the report in 

14 this case, you, as you told me, made a careful and 

15 thorough review to be certain that you got the facts 

16 correct; is that true? 

17 A. True.

18 Q. And you're telling me that you're not 

19 finished with your review in this case? 

20 A. I've gotten additional materials since 

21 I issued my report. There's a deadline I had to meet 

22 for counsel and then there's materials that came 

23 after that that I have not reviewed.

24 Q. What day this past week did you get 

25 these transcripts? 

Page 80

1 A. This morning.

2 Q. So Mr. Finegood brought them today? 

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. You know your deposition was scheduled 

5 for other dates. Other dates were discussed for your 

6 deposition in the month of February.

7 A. I remember giving dates I was 

8 available and I was hoping this was the date.

9 MR. FINEGOOD: Just for the record, 

10 it's clear you scheduled this deposition 

11 for today's date. It was not rescheduled 

12 at anybody's --

13 MR. BODARY: Actually, that's not 

14 true. I gave notice and you then contacted 

15 me, we moved this to March 1st. I may 

16 stand corrected. I don't want to waste the 

17 time on this transcript. Let's go, sir.

18 Q. You, in page 4 of your report, make 

19 reference to an ACA standard, a mandatory standard 

20 and it's the second one quoted here that I'm making 

21 reference to, "Inmates who need health care beyond 

22 the resources available in the facility, as 

23 determined by the responsible physician, are 

24 transferred --" I'm skipping a few words -- "to a 

25 facility where such care is on-call or available 24 

Page 81

1 hours a day;" do you see that? 

2 A. Yes sir.

3 Q. The responsible physician in this case 

4 is Jeffrey Stickney; is that correct? 

5 A. He was the physician for the jail; 

6 correct.

7 Q. Down below, in this same page, you 

8 refer to an essential standard of the NCCH, and I'm 

9 looking at the last sentence there, "In deciding the 

10 level of symptoms that can be managed safely at the 

11 facility, the responsible physician must take into 

12 account the level of medical supervision that is 

13 available at all times."

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And that responsible physician is who? 

16 A. Again it depends. 

17 Q. In this case, sir.

18 A. In the county jail, the jail physician 

19 doctor is Dr. Stickney. 

20 Q. If a jail is not accredited by the 

21 NCCH, and many jails are not, why is it fair to apply 

22 those standards to that jail? 

23 A. The NCCHC standards are a set of 

24 guidelines and standards for the entire corrections 

25 industry -- You don't have --

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ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

Page 82

1 Q. Did --

2 MR. FINEGOOD: Excuse me. Are you 

3 going to let him answer? 

4 MR. BODARY: Sure.

5 A. You don't have to be accredited. What 

6 they are designed to do, ACA and the NCCHC, is you 

7 get a set of benchmarks for acceptable, 

8 constitutional corrections operations.

9 Q. And far as you know, no state requires 

10 that it makes those mandatory for any jail inside a 

11 state? 

12 A. No, standards have always been 

13 recommended.

14 Q. It's voluntary? 

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So though the institution uses the 

17 words, mandatory or essential, in fact, there is 

18 state requirement that they're mandatory? 

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Is it your experience that the larger, 

21 more sophisticated jail systems are accredited by ACA 

22 or NCCH? 

23 A. Actually, my experience is it's a lot 

24 easier for the smaller facility to be accredited than 

25 the larger ones. The larger ones take a lot more 

Page 83

1 effort and a lot more cost because of the volume of 

2 their operation. The smaller jail is actually easier 

3 to be accredited by those because there's less to 

4 accredit.

5 Q. Do you know what the budget was for 

6 health care was at Lenawee County in 2004, 2005, 

7 2006? 

8 A. No, sir; I was not given that 

9 information.

10 Q. Yeah. Do you know whether they 

11 exceeded the budget in giving health care, for 

12 outside services, obviously, transport out of the -- 

13 treatment outside? 

14 A. I wouldn't know any of that, sir.

15 Q. All right. Did Hamilton County ever 

16 exceed its budgets by a hundred percent for inmate 

17 care in any given year? 

18 A. Not that I recall.

19 Q. That's a substantial increase; isn't 

20 it, over the budgeted item, hundred percent.

21 A. The amount of -- The budget has 

22 nothing to do with the administration of health care 

23 to inmates.

24 Q. So the -- Now, let me understand that. 

25 First of all, inmates are not Constitutionally 

Page 84

1 guaranteed to get treatment for bunyons or hang nails 

2 or minor medical problems; isn't that true? 

3 A. The Constitutional guarantee is that 

4 there's adequate medical care and you have to take 

5 care of the serious medical needs.

6 Q. All right, and that's not a serious 

7 medical need; is it? 

8 A. What isn't? 

9 Q. A bunyon or a hang nail.

10 A. Again, I'm not a doctor. I can't tell 

11 what that may be a condition of or a symptom of to 

12 say if it's serious or not. I'm not a medical 

13 person.

14 Q. All right. Do you know what the 

15 incidence is of withdrawals going to seizure in a 

16 patient who's receiving treatment? Do you know what 

17 the incidence is, what percentage of patients that 

18 have alcohol withdrawal go to seizure who are, 

19 actually, treated? 

20 A. Again, through my training, I heard 

21 those numbers, but I can't recall exactly what the 

22 percentage is.

23 Q. Do you know what the incidence of 

24 death is as a complication of untreated alcohol 

25 withdrawal? 

Page 85

1 A. I know in the corrections environment 

2 or the corrections industry it's a very real problem 

3 and I don't know the numbers; I don't know the 

4 percentage; I can't recall those.

5 Q. Do you know the difference when 

6 treatment occurs? 

7 A. There's a difference, but I don't know 

8 what that difference --

9 Q. Do you know if it's significant? 

10 A. Again, I don't know the numbers, so I 

11 don't know if they were significant or not.

12 Q. So you don't know that the serious 

13 risk of death from withdrawal or DT's is so reduced 

14 by proper treatment that it's no longer a serious 

15 risk? 

16 A. Again, I'm a corrections operations 

17 person, not a medical person. My job is to make sure 

18 those people get to the medical positions so they can 

19 be evaluated -- medical facility.

20 Q. In this case, Sgt. Neill, within 16 

21 minutes of this inmate being booked, got the 

22 information regarding the patient to a medical 

23 director; isn't that true? 

24 A. She called the medical --

25 Q. Correct, and he gave the treatment 

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1 plan? 

2 A. At that point, yes.

3 Q. He defined the need? 

4 A. What they knew at that time.

5 Q. Yes. And then when Paul Dye thought 

6 things had changed, he called the doctor again; 

7 correct? 

8 A. Didn't he call the doctor on the phone 

9 --

10 Q. And the doctor, again, defined what 

11 the treatment plan was.

12 A. At that point, yes.

13 Q. All right. And if correctional 

14 officers understood the call had been made and the 

15 treatment was the same, same medication, same 

16 observation, how were they deliberately indifferent? 

17 A. Again, you said the same observation; 

18 the observations had changed from the first call to 

19 the second call.

20 Q. But now, I'm asking you how do you 

21 know there was any change from the second call? You 

22 don't really know. All you know is what you saw in 

23 the video, but you don't know if that was a change; 

24 do you? 

25 MR. FINEGOOD: I'm going to object to 

Page 87

1 the form of the question. You just asked 

2 five questions in the space of one.

3 MR. BODARY: No.

4 MR. FINEGOOD: Yes, you did and you're 

5 arguing with the witness, okay, so why 

6 don't you ask one question at a time and 

7 maybe he can answer it.

8 Q. I have one question pending to you, 

9 sir. You don't know if there was a change, you don't 

10 know if there was a change from the call at 9:00 a.m. 

11 to what you see on the video in the morning; do you?

12 A. 9:00 a.m.?

13 Q. 9:00 p.m., when the call was made to 

14 the doctor, excuse me.

15 A. Again, the information I have reviewed 

16 indicated there was a deterioration of her condition 

17 overnight.

18 Q. Who used the word, deterioration? You 

19 did --

20 A. I did.

21 Q. -- in your report. Where is that 

22 anywhere in this record, deterioration? 

23 A. That's my analysis.

24 Q. Your assumption? 

25 A. Yes.

Page 88

1 Q. And not only is it making the 

2 assumption that there was a deterioration, but the 

3 same officer saw it was a deterioration; that is, 

4 that the officer who saw symptoms -- Let's take 

5 Bernice Baker, when she looks at the video camera at 

6 7:30 or 8:00 o'clock in the morning, how was she to 

7 know whether or not that's a change if it's the first 

8 time she saw this inmate? 

9 MR. FINEGOOD: Objection to the form 

10 of the question.

11 A. Again, we talked about this before, 

12 but the obligation of putting her in the role of 

13 being the observer --

14 Q. I'm not asking about the supervisor.

15 MR. FINEGOOD: Excuse me. Let him 

16 answer the question, please; it's common 

17 courtesy.

18 MR. BODARY: It is common courtesy.

19 Q. Go ahead.

20 A. First, it's the responsibility of the 

21 appointing authority to make sure they give her the 

22 information they (sic) need to do that job and what's 

23 normal and what's not, according to her and record 

24 that, and also if it's an obvious change in behavior 

25 that anyone would notice during that time period.

Page 89

1 Q. Excuse me. I'm asking about Bernice 

2 Baker, not the person that put her there. How is it 

3 she knows it's a change. It could have been the same 

4 condition three or four hours ago; how does she know? 

5 Can you answer? 

6 A. At this point, with the information I 

7 have, no.

8 Q. Okay. Well, in fact, you can't record 

9 a change or act on a change if you don't know it's a 

10 change; can you? 

11 A. True. If you don't know it's a change 

12 --

13 Q. You can't ignore a change if you don't 

14 know it's a change; can you? 

15 A. Hypothetically, yes, it's true.

16 Q. Would you defer to medical experts as 

17 to whether or not the medications given to this 

18 inmate were of the proper type? 

19 A. Yes. I would have no expertise in 

20 that area.

21 Q. And would you also defer to medical 

22 experts relative to the dosage that was given of this 

23 particular medication? 

24 A. Yes, sir; I'm no medical expert.

25 MR. FINEGOOD: Wait a second. I 

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JEFF EISER MARCH 1, 2010

ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

Page 90

1 object to the question. The question is 

2 vague. Which experts are you talking 

3 about, the experts that you've retained, 

4 Dr. Stickney or the experts that the 

5 plaintiff has retained. There's many 

6 experts whose dosaging opinions may be 

7 inquired about right now. The question is 

8 vague.

9 MR. BODARY: To quote you, you have 

10 your objection.

11 Q. Now, sir, on page 8 of your letter or 

12 report, you began, I believe, to summarize some of 

13 the opinions you reached in the course of this 

14 letter. In fact, you put in bold letters at the end, 

15 "In this case, Brenda Smith was denied access to 

16 adequate medical care at the time it was most 

17 critical for (her) treatment (and) life-threatening 

18 alcohol withdrawal symptoms;" do you see that? 

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. The same sentence starts two 

21 paragraphs up with the words, "Brenda Smith was 

22 denied adequate medical care after jail officials 

23 received actual knowledge of (serious) of her serious 

24 medical conditions."

25 MR. FINEGOOD: I'm sorry. You lost 

Page 91

1 me. Where are you --

2 MR. BODARY: It's in the middle of the 

3 third paragraph on the bottom, on page 8.

4 Q. You know what, I don't need to do 

5 that. I'm trying to conclude this question, whatever 

6 this question is. Let me do it this way: In the 

7 paragraph above, you said, starting with the words, 

8 "Based on my experience," "Based on my experience, 

9 training and education Lenawee County and Sheriff 

10 Lawrence Richardson...knew to a moral certainty the 

11 need for...training their jail staff in the 

12 recognition of serious health risks;" do you see that 

13 sentence?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Okay. Which correctional officer, of 

16 the seven officers I represent, did not recognize 

17 this patient's condition as alcohol withdrawal with 

18 DT's; which one, sir? 

19 A. In the ones I have not reviewed the 

20 depositions of I can't answer for. The new person 

21 coming in, I really -- she had no training at all at 

22 that particular time and this is in the context of 

23 training they received. I don't know exactly what 

24 they knew, but there is no evidence of training on 

25 those topics for any of the staff.

Page 92

1 Q. I didn't ask about the training. What 

2 I asked for is identify which officer didn't 

3 recognize the serious condition.

4 A. Again, I'm not aware --

5 Q. Mary Neill did; she recognized the 

6 condition and she made the call; didn't she? 

7 A. I said that; correct.

8 Q. Yeah. Paul Dye did. He characterized 

9 it as DT's.

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. All right. So in terms of recognition 

12 of the condition, the lack of training didn't impede 

13 either of them from knowing what this was; correct? 

14 A. Again, the deterioration of the 

15 condition was the more important element of that.

16 Q. I'm reading your letter that 

17 Richardson knew to a moral certainty the need for 

18 training the jail staff in the recognition of serious 

19 health risks, so you're, apparently, not referring to 

20 withdrawal, but a deterioration, overall health --

21 A. In the corrections industry, it is a 

22 absolutely fundamental thing that we do to train our 

23 staff in the recognition of serious health risks.

24 Q. Right. Now, here's my question to 

25 you: Who was it, which one of these officers, tell 

Page 93

1 me which, Ondrovick, Neill, Paul Dye, Bernice Baker, 

2 Eric Westgate, Jim Craig? Which of those people 

3 didn't make note or know that this patient was going 

4 through DT's? 

5 A. Again, the issue is not they didn't 

6 know, but --

7 Q. My question is --

8 MR. FINEGOOD: Excuse me. Let him 

9 answer.

10 MR. BODARY: He's answering the issue. 

11 I want an answer to my question.

12 MR. FINEGOOD: No, no. He's answering 

13 your question, You may not like it.

14 MR. BODARY: I'll take the response.

15 MR. FINEGOOD: You have to take it, 

16 okay? 

17 MR. BODARY: I'll take the response. 

18 I tried to focus him on the question.

19 MR. FINEGOOD: Well, okay. He doesn't 

20 need focusing.

21 A. Again, I think we agreed to the fact 

22 that they knew that this lady was having DT's and 

23 troubles and the issue I keep talking about concerns 

24 as she has deteriorated -- is the word I used -- what 

25 was their action at that point.

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1 Q. Well, Paul Dye's action, you 

2 understand, was to call Dr. Stickney a second time; 

3 correct? 

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And Dr. Stickney made no change; 

6 correct? 

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And he said, hopefully another day 

9 will do her some good; correct? 

10 A. In essence.

11 Q. If there was no further deterioration 

12 from that time until the time of her arrest or no 

13 determination that was perceivable because the person 

14 only saw them (sic) for a limited section of hours, 

15 then they didn't fail to recognize a deterioration; 

16 did they? 

17 A. There was no new evidence, but if 

18 there is new evidence, they have to act.

19 Q. Right. And you don't know whether 

20 there was because you're just looking at the video as 

21 you saw it between 7:00 and 9:00 o'clock or 10:00 

22 o'clock? 

23 A. And the information the verbal -- how 

24 she acted, the description of her behavior by the 

25 individual officers that offered medical.

Page 95

1 Q. The next sentence says, "They were put 

2 on notice by their own Jail Commander and they had 

3 settled previous lawsuits where the lack of adequate 

4 medical care and failure to train were issues;" is 

5 that your statement? 

6 A. That's in my letter.

7 Q. So that was your statement, not 

8 somebody else's; correct? 

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. All right. What other suits had they 

11 settled before April 3th of 2007? 

12 A. I'm not sure when the suits were 

13 settled.

14 Q. You don't know when the suits were 

15 filed.

16 A. I don't have the dates of --

17 Q. So why are you making the statement 

18 that they had settled previous lawsuits before April 

19 30th of 2007? 

20 A. What page are you reading? 

21 Q. We're on page 8, sir, the same 

22 paragraph where you said, "...knew to a moral 

23 certainty...." The very next sentence says, "They 

24 were put on notice by their own Jail Commander and 

25 they had settled previous lawsuits where the lack of 

Page 96

1 adequate medical care and failure to train were 

2 issues." Where do you have that? You can't tell me 

3 when the suits were filed.

4 MR. FINEGOOD: It's a question -- 

5 Okay. It's a compound question --

6 MR. BODARY: I'll withdraw the last. 

7 I'll withdraw the last.

8 Q. Where are you getting, sir? 

9 MR. FINEGOOD: Getting what? That 

10 they were put on notice by Jail Commander 

11 Steenrod's memo? 

12 MR. BODARY: Previous lawsuits. 

13 Q. They settled previous lawsuits. Where 

14 do you get that?

15 A. There is information in the review 

16 concerning two other cases --

17 Q. So plaintiff's lawyer told you about 

18 two other cases? 

19 A. No. It was something in the 

20 discipline of a particular officer, I think it was, 

21 Dye.

22 Q. What do you know about those cases? 

23 Do you know anything about the Florez case? 

24 A. Not a lot, other than the fact that 

25 the disciplinary documents that Sgt. Dye was supposed 

Page 97

1 --

2 Q. But you don't know if there was any 

3 deliberate indifference involved in that case? 

4 A. The issues dealt with medical care.

5 Q. Answer my question. You don't know --

6 A. No, I do not, right.

7 Q. Do you know the name of the other 

8 case? 

9 A. It dealt with -- It was appendicitis 

10 or something or --

11 Q. Do you know when that suit was filed? 

12 A. I believe before this suit, but I 

13 don't remember.

14 Q. Before April of 2007.

15 A. Again, I don't recall the dates.

16 Q. So why did you put this in this 

17 letter, sir? 

18 A. When I was drafting this, it was in my 

19 particular mind that there was previous lawsuits that 

20 I had read about the disciplinary action, concerning 

21 --

22 Q. And you don't know any of the 

23 particulars of what the correctional officers did or 

24 what interplay there was with any nurse or any doctor 

25 in those cases; do you, sir?

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1 A. No, I do not.

2 Q. All right. Having NCCH procedures 

3 does not guarantee there will be no deliberate 

4 indifference; true? 

5 A. True.

6 Q. All right. If you don't have the 

7 standards, but the officer's act, by referring 

8 medical problems to treaters, the absence of the 

9 standard did not cause any wrong to the inmate; isn't 

10 that true? 

11 A. It's not so much the standard; it's 

12 having policies and directions for your staff.

13 Q. I'm asking a specific question now. 

14 The absence of the particular writing -- The presence 

15 of the writing doesn't guarantee you won't be 

16 deliberately indifferent? 

17 A. True. In terms of the writing, no.

18 Q. Present of the standard does not 

19 guarantee there won't be deliberate indifference; 

20 does it? 

21 A. The presence of the standard is --

22 Q. It doesn't guarantee there will not be 

23 deliberate indifference by a correctional officer? 

24 MR. FINEGOOD: Objection. It's 

25 irrelevant.

Page 99

1 A. I'm not sure what you're -- The 

2 presence of the standard -- that there actually is a 

3 standard? 

4 Q. Yeah. An NCCH standard relative to a 

5 given issue does not guarantee that an officer is 

6 going to avoid being deliberately indifferent? 

7 A. The purpose of the standard is to give 

8 them guidance to develop policy, procedures and 

9 training to avoid possible liability, but no, it 

10 doesn't guarantee anything, no.

11 Q. And the absence of the writing will 

12 not impair someone's Civil Rights if the officers, in 

13 fact, do procedures that refer serious medical 

14 conditions for medical evaluation and treatment? 

15 A. Again, I'm not sure what you're 

16 asking.

17 Q. If there's no deliberate indifference 

18 by the officer because they refer for medical 

19 management and follow the doctor's orders, then the 

20 absence of the standard or the absence of training 

21 didn't impact the Civil Rights of that inmate; did 

22 it? 

23 A. Again, I'm not sure if you're asking a 

24 question or making a statement.

25 Q. I'm asking a question. But, see, 

Page 100

1 here's the thing --

2 MR. FINEGOOD: Hold on, I object to 

3 the form of the question `cause it's not a 

4 question. It is a statement and it's vague 

5 as to which particular guidelines or 

6 standards you're referring to? 

7 MR. BODARY: I'm just asking in the 

8 inverse and he won't acknowledge it.

9 Q. The mere presence of the writing 

10 doesn't guarantee the right procedure, but the right 

11 procedure in the absence of a particular protocol, 

12 let's say, of the absence of the protocol will not 

13 affect that inmate if the procedure avoided 

14 deliberate indifference; isn't that true? 

15 MR. FINEGOOD: Objection. It's not 

16 intelligible.

17 A. I didn't hear what you said. All I 

18 know is that the standards require facilities to have 

19 policies, procedures that govern the behavior of 

20 their staff. A jail is a quasi-paramilitary 

21 operation that needs -- staff needs to know exactly 

22 what to do, especially when medical staff are not 

23 there 24 hours a day.

24 Q. In the state of Ohio, are these 

25 standards if you violate them negligently, does that 

Page 101

1 give rise to liability in Ohio?

2 A. Which standards you talking about? 

3 Q. NCCH standards.

4 MR. FINEGOOD: Excuse me. Calls for a 

5 legal conclusion.

6 A. Again the standards are recommended 

7 guidelines for rated -- for the guidance of 

8 departments to develop policies and procedures and 

9 training so that their staff can again, hopefully, 

10 avoid liability.

11 Q. I'm asking you, do you know whether or 

12 not the State of Ohio allows a recovery to an inmate 

13 when there is violation of the standard, not proof of 

14 deliberate indifference, but violation of the 

15 standard? 

16 A. The standard, again, is not law.

17 Q. Right. So in Ohio, that doesn't 

18 count? 

19 A. That doesn't count in any state 

20 though, I believe.

21 Q. Now, answers to requests to admit by 

22 the County mistakenly indicated there were no 

23 protocols on alcohol withdrawal from this 

24 development, and they're going to be amended. There 

25 are no written guidelines or policies for 

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Page 102

1 correctional officers, but it develops that Nurse 

2 Bonnie Mason and Jeffrey Stickney had protocols for a 

3 number of difference types of problems.

4 I want you to assume the following 

5 issues: ear infections, migraine headaches, 

6 tonsillitis, sinus infection, chest pain, alcohol 

7 withdrawal, hypertension, diabetes, seizure 

8 disorders.

9 Now, you've offered an opinion in this 

10 case that you were shocked or astounded that there 

11 were no protocols. In this setup at Lenawee County, 

12 where there was part-time nursing coverage, 24-hour 

13 physician coverage, the fact that a nursing protocol 

14 was known only to the nurse, is that significant? 

15 MR. FINEGOOD: Well, first of all, I'm 

16 going to place an objection to the extent 

17 that any answers to requests to admit are 

18 in any way incorrect based on some record 

19 that has been developed for the simple 

20 reason there are no standards. It's been 

21 admitted that if there were standards, 

22 there is no -- excuse me -- written 

23 documentation. In fact, they've been lost 

24 and that will be the subject of a skelation 

25 (sic) motion in its own right.

Page 103

1 MR. BODARY: So what's your objection? 

2 MR. FINEGOOD: The objection is it's 

3 irrelevant and it's without --

4 MR. BODARY: This deposition is not 

5 necessarily to be read to a jury and I'm 

6 going to a point here that I'm inviting 

7 problems, and my problem is this: 

8 Q. That have you seen other jails in 

9 which there are nursing protocols that address 

10 nursing issues about how you approach alcohol 

11 withdrawal? 

12 A. There are, and there should be nursing 

13 protocols. In addition to the facility's policies 

14 and procedures, directing the authority of the 

15 medical staff to do certain things and what the staff 

16 does when medical is not there. 

17 Q. I want you to point me to which of the 

18 listed policies that you reviewed for Lenawee County, 

19 and they're listed here under 17a through x. The 

20 first two, really, probably don't apply, but whether 

21 you think any of these policies, as written, deprive 

22 -- were deliberately indifferent to serious medical 

23 needs of the inmates.

24 A. Again, the policies, as I remember 

25 them, were bare minimum, but yet you could probably 

Page 104

1 call them adequate documents, but some issues were 

2 not covered. That means the staff in that kind of 

3 facility needed direction on it.

4 Q. So it's what was missing, not that any 

5 one of these policies is deliberately indifferent to 

6 care? 

7 A. Correct.

8 MR. BODARY: That's all the questions

9 I have sir.

10 MR. NELSON: I have a few questions. 

11 EXAMINATION

12 BY MR. NELSON:

13 As I mentioned, my name is Dave 

14 Nelson. I'm here on behalf of Dr. 

15 Stickney. I will try not to repeat the 

16 questions that have been asked; I hope not 

17 to do that, but if I accidentally go over a 

18 few of them already asked, I apologize.

19 Q. All right. You have no formal medical 

20 education; correct? 

21 A. No, sir.

22 Q. All right. And you -- Do you have any 

23 certifications that you had to take courses or take 

24 tests to become certified in anything? 

25 A. In the field of corrections? 

Page 105

1 Q. Yeah.

2 A. Ironically, I was actually the guy who 

3 wrote the curricula for the test for the State of 

4 Ohio to become certified as a jail administrator and 

5 supervisor, et cetera, so I was the guy that wrote 

6 those for the security operations side of the jails 

7 in Ohio.

8 Q. Now, I noticed on your C.V., it 

9 indicates your a jail operations expert. At least, 

10 that's the title you give yourself. Is there any 

11 certification in jail operations, like a test you can 

12 take to become certified in jail operations? 

13 A. There are certifications to the 

14 American Jail Association. You can be a certified 

15 corrections administrator, I think, and I assisted in 

16 developing that program also. I didn't, actually, 

17 take the test myself; I wrote the test and also a 

18 certified corrections officer, I think, now, but 

19 there's nothing in our industry that would make you a 

20 certified operations person.

21 Q. Okay. So you're not certified by any 

22 of those bodies in corrections or anything? 

23 A. There is no certification for that, 

24 what you're asking.

25 Q. So the answer is no, that you're not. 

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1 I mean if there's no certifications --

2 A. Nothing exists, exactly, that -- It's 

3 unique; it's a unique position.

4 Q. Have you written any publications in 

5 any peer review journals or anything like that 

6 regarding alcohol withdrawal or DT's? 

7 A. No, I have not.

8 Q. Have you given any presentations to 

9 any -- well, just given any presentations regarding 

10 alcohol withdrawal or DT's? 

11 A. No, I have not.

12 Q. Could you describe for me, I guess, 

13 what your -- the breakup of your professional time is 

14 today, whether -- give you an example, whether the 

15 majority of it is testifying or forensic work as an 

16 expert witness or -- and break that down into the 

17 percentage of time that you go to facilities and 

18 investigate them, that's just merely part of your 

19 work in promulgating standards and things of that 

20 nature.

21 A. My retirement work, you mean. I 

22 retired back in February, full time, February, 2009, 

23 full time and since then I started this expert 

24 witness career as a hobby. I also go to school full 

25 time now to finish my Master's degree, so I'm a 

Page 107

1 professional student also. And also I teach 

2 elementary school as part of my education degree and, 

3 so probably, percentage-wise, this activity takes up 

4 one-third of what I consider to be my work life at 

5 this point.

6 Q. So boil it down. Since you retired in 

7 February, 2009, apart from being a student, really, 

8 the majority of your time is spent as an expert 

9 witness? 

10 A. And as a teacher.

11 Q. Do you hold any professional licenses 

12 at all? 

13 A. No, sir.

14 Q. When did you start reviewing cases as 

15 an expert, what year, if you recall? 

16 A. I started back in 1994. I was 

17 requested by an attorney to start and that was my 

18 first case.

19 Q. Since 1994, how many -- on how many 

20 occasions would you say you've given depositions? 

21 You can estimate.

22 A. Over the last how many years is that, 

23 16 years or something?

24 Q. Yeah.

25 A. I'm gonna say I probably been in 30, 

Page 108

1 40 depositions, not just those -- I also give 

2 depositions as my professional responsibility. I was 

3 the guy that Hamilton County used to represent them 

4 in litigation or employee litigation or whatever it 

5 may be, so I've been in -- I'm guessing 40, maybe.

6 Q. And that's what you estimate over -- 

7 since 1994, 40 depositions? 

8 A. Forty, something like that. 

9 Q. How many times have you testified at 

10 trial; do you recall since you've been --

11 A. I think two of the cases actually made 

12 it to trial. Ninety-nine percent seem to be settled 

13 before, which I had nothing to do with, obviously.

14 Q. And of the cases that you've acted as 

15 an expert witness in how many times or what would the 

16 breakup be between plaintiffs work and defense work? 

17 A. I just did the math on that. Sixty 

18 percent of my cases have been defense and 40 percent 

19 have been plaintiff.

20 Q. Have you ever been subject to 

21 litigation yourself? Have you ever been sued? 

22 A. No.

23 Q. Not ever as a party, dealing with any 

24 of the issues in Hamilton County? You've never been 

25 named in a lawsuit? 

Page 109

1 A. Actually, I believe I was named one 

2 time in a pro se lawsuit by an inmate many years ago 

3 because he found my card on the floor of the jail and 

4 he could spell my name and he, actually, went to 

5 State prison and passed away before he could file a 

6 lawsuit because I was noticed of that from the post 

7 office (sic). And I forget, it was something 

8 completely out -- It didn't have access to science 

9 fiction, television or something really off the wall 

10 type of stuff. I remember that.

11 Q. All right. Now, you mentioned 

12 throughout the course of this deposition that you -- 

13 and you testified you have no formal medical 

14 education and I'm assuming that you will not be 

15 rendering any testimony that will be critical of Dr. 

16 Stickney as to his -- what -- the treatment he 

17 rendered? 

18 A. Correct. I'm not a medical expert.

19 Q. All right. So you will defer the 

20 opinions in that regard to a medical expert? 

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. You testified that the NCCH standards 

23 -- in your terms you called them guidelines and 

24 standards; correct? 

25 A. Correct.

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1 Q. Now, you would agree that a guideline 

2 is just that. It's something that can be followed, 

3 but it doesn't have to be followed. 

4 A. Correct. It's what our industry uses, 

5 the corrections industry.

6 Q. Okay. And you also used the term 

7 benchmark which is another way of saying guidelines, 

8 something that can be followed or it doesn't have to 

9 be. It depends on the judgment and the circumstances 

10 as to whether or not you use that guideline; correct? 

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. All right. Now, you would agree that 

13 if there are policies and procedures that are in 

14 place regarding the handling of, let's say, alcohol 

15 withdrawal or DT's -- Strike that. I'm sorry. If 

16 there were no policies in place regarding alcohol 

17 withdrawal or DT's, the absence of those policies 

18 does not necessarily mean that an untoward result 

19 would happen. 

20 MR. FINEGOOD: Objection to form. Do 

21 you understand the question? 

22 Q. If you were to assume that there were 

23 no policies or directives in place regarding alcohol 

24 withdrawal or DT's, that fact, alone, does not imply 

25 that there is any type of deliberate indifference 

Page 111

1 involved? 

2 A. No.

3 Q. That's correct, right? 

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And I just want to make sure we 

6 covered the bases. As I just stated earlier, you're 

7 not going to be testifying as to the appropriate dose 

8 of Librium; correct? 

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. And as you have no medical training or 

11 experience in that -- experience in treating or 

12 diagnosing DT's or alcohol withdrawal since you're 

13 not a medical doctor; correct? 

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Have you, yourself, ever created 

16 protocols or procedures regarding DT's or alcohol 

17 withdrawal? 

18 A. I have, in cooperation with my medical 

19 staff, created policies for training for the 

20 corrections staff in terms of what to do, the actions 

21 of the officers, the response of the officers and 

22 cooperation with the nursing staff, who report their 

23 observations.

24 Q. All right. Now, would those be -- are 

25 they published anywhere or just among your own staff 

Page 112

1 at the Hamilton County correctional facility? 

2 A. They would have been in the procedures 

3 and policies of the Hamilton County Sheriff's Office 

4 -- Correction, Division.

5 Q. But you, yourself, have not published 

6 any such protocols or procedures or standards as 

7 contained in the NCCH or any of those other 

8 guidelines? 

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. Who is, in your county, in Hamilton 

11 County, who is the Director of Operations there 

12 currently? 

13 A. The Sheriff runs the jail.

14 Q. All right. Who is the Deputy 

15 Director, if you have one? 

16 A. The Chief Deputy is Shaun Donovan. 

17 MR. BODARY: How do you spell his -- 

18 Spell the last.

19 THE WITNESS: D-O-N-O-V-A-N.

20 MR. BODARY: Thanks.

21 Q. Who is the Medical Director at the 

22 Hamilton County Jail? 

23 A. I'm not sure since I've been gone.

24 Q. Now, do you have -- Is it just one 

25 Medical Director that you have or is there a group of 

Page 113

1 physicians that kind of oversee the jail? How is 

2 that working? 

3 A. When I was there, it was a contract 

4 medical service. The contract companies we dealt 

5 with were CMS, Correctional Medical Services and also 

6 NAF Care. I'm not sure what they have now.

7 Q. So when was the last date that you 

8 actually worked or had involvement with the Hamilton 

9 County Jail? 

10 A. My last day was in February of 2009. 

11 I don't know which day it was. I, actually, retired 

12 in 2006 and worked two more years at the request of 

13 the Sheriff and my last position was to, as I said 

14 before, close the jail. So it would have been about 

15 February. I'm guessing the end of February, 2009.

16 Q. I think we went over this briefly, but 

17 I just want to make sure. In your report, in your 

18 criticisms, you note the failure of Lenawee County 

19 Jail, Sheriff Lawrence Richardson and jail 

20 administration to have a policy, procedure or 

21 protocol.... Who would you include in that as all 

22 the individual who failed to take that action that 

23 you include in that paragraph? 

24 MR. FINEGOOD: Where are you reading, 

25 what paragraph, please.

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1 MR. NELSON: Page 1, paragraph 1, it's 

2 stated on his report that, "The failure of Lenawee 

3 County Jail, Sheriff Lawrence Richardson and jail 

4 administration have a policy, procedure or protocol 

5 to...." What were you referring to when you talked 

6 about jail administration? 

7 A. Anyone that would have the authority 

8 to create policy, procedure for any issue in the 

9 administration of the jail and each jail's different, 

10 the structure of the jail.

11 Q. All right. And do you know who those 

12 individuals would be at Lenawee County Jail? 

13 A. The jail administrator.

14 Q. Which is who? 

15 A. Mr. Steenrod, I believe, at that point 

16 in time.

17 Q. And is that all that you would include 

18 under that heading as far as your knowledge goes with 

19 regard to Lenawee County Jail? 

20 A. There is also the under Sheriff, I 

21 believe, is not named here, who had some -- Ms. 

22 Dodson, I think. Ms. Dodson, I think her name was at 

23 that time.

24 Q. So under the term, jail 

25 administration, you'd be referring to the 

Page 115

1 administrator, Dennis Steenrod and Gail Dodson? 

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. All right.

4 MR. NELSON: I don't have any further 

5 questions.

6 MR. HIMBAUGH: I do not have any 

7 questions.

8 MR. FINEGOOD: Well, I have some 

9 questions.

10 EXAMINATION

11 BY MR. FINEGOOD:

12 Q. First of all, you've been retired now 

13 for, you said most recently, since February of last 

14 year; is that correct?

15 A. Correct. I retired, retired. I 

16 retired in 2006, but I was asked to stay on. They 

17 call it double dipping, I guess, for two years.

18 Q. So what position did you actually 

19 retire from? What was your last position? 

20 A. The Deputy Director of Corrections.

21 Q. And as Deputy Director of Corrections 

22 for Hamilton County, can you just give us a brief 

23 overview of what your responsibilities were? 

24 A. The Deputy Director was responsible 

25 for the operation of four different facilities, 

Page 116

1 600-plus staff, $40 million budget and direct 

2 responsibility and answering to the Director of 

3 Corrections, who was a appointed, political appointee 

4 and then to the Sheriff. I was the top operational 

5 person who operated the jail and was involved with be 

6 it personnel, be it security, training, working with 

7 the medical contracts, with food service contracts, 

8 doing all the administrative functions that it takes 

9 to run an operation that size.

10 Q. And how long did you function in that 

11 capacity? 

12 A. I started -- Actually, I was the 

13 Operations Commander back in 1990. The Deputy 

14 Director retired and they didn't replace him; they 

15 just gave me both jobs, so I got double-jobbed for 

16 the last, about the last 10 years. So I've been 

17 doing Deputy Director for probably nine or 10 years, 

18 along, along with Operations Commander.

19 Q. I'm sorry. You said 1990? 

20 A. 1990 is when I was moved to Operations 

21 Commander which was an administrative position in 

22 charge of all the security in the operations. And 

23 then the Deputy Director retired a few years after 

24 that, so they eliminated my position and just gave me 

25 both jobs, so I did both jobs --

Page 117

1 Q. So then what do you do --

2 A. -- the remainder of my career.

3 Q. Close to 20 years? 

4 A. Nineteen years or something I was 

5 administrative. 

6 Q. And how long have you been in law 

7 enforcement, if you will, altogether, as a career? 

8 A. Since May 22nd, 1980.

9 Q. Thirty years.

10 A. Almost thirty years.

11 Q. And what is your educational 

12 background?

13 A. I have a Bachelor of Science in the 

14 University of Dayton, graduated 1980, in criminal 

15 justice.

16 Q. And you're presently enrolled in a 

17 Master's program? 

18 A. Yes. I need my thesis and a couple 

19 more classes in the spring. I'm getting my Master's 

20 in educational administration, at Dayton University, 

21 here in Cincinnati.

22 Q. I'm sorry, in business administration? 

23 A. Educational administration.

24 Q. Education, okay. So Hamilton County 

25 corrections or the Hamilton County Jail, if you will, 

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1 how would you characterize that in terms of relative 

2 size, perhaps, in comparison to your understanding of 

3 Lenawee County.

4 A. It's a large urban corrections system. 

5 Lenawee County, obviously, around -- I'm guessing 

6 again -- about 300 beds or so, is larger. It's still 

7 a full-service jail. They do the same functions. 

8 The one thing I've experienced in my career is that 

9 it really doesn't matter what the size of the 

10 facility is; the operations, the conditions, the 

11 responsibilities are the same, just on different 

12 magnitudes, you know, but the basic operations and 

13 what you need to do is the same.

14 Q. What about relative procedures, if you 

15 will, relative to the difference, if any, between, 

16 let's say, a jail and a state correctional facility, 

17 if you will, or a prison, as it might relate to 

18 intake procedures; would there be any? 

19 MR. BODARY: Object. Lack of 

20 foundation.

21 A. Absolutely. A jail deals with people 

22 coming off the street. They could be in any 

23 condition, under the influence of anything. While a 

24 prison receives people and inmates from jails, so 

25 hopefully, everything functions a lot different. 

Page 119

1 Their function is they take `em in, interview `em and 

2 place `em in a security-level facility, but they've 

3 already been screened for medical or have been 

4 treated for medical and all the other conditions, be 

5 it mental health, be it alcohol or drug withdrawal, 

6 those are all -- have been taken care of by the jail 

7 and when they reach the prison, the intake process is 

8 a little bit different. The jail's really are the 

9 ones who do all the work of the entry or other parts 

10 within the system.

11 Q. Now, you made reference to several 

12 organizations anyways. I think one of them was the 

13 American Correctional Association?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. What is the American Correctional 

16 Association? 

17 A. The American Correctional Association 

18 was an organization started many years ago to promote 

19 the professionalism of corrections operations. It 

20 governs adult prisons, juvenile facilities, community 

21 corrections and also detention facilities, and also 

22 develops standards based upon committees of 

23 attorneys, professionals in the field that will be 

24 the benchmarks or the standards for the industry.

25 Q. Is it something -- Would you 

Page 120

1 characterize the American Correctional Association as 

2 something of a paternal organization, something where 

3 people get together, like a loyal order of moose or 

4 anything like that? 

5 A. No, no. It's a professional 

6 association of corrections people. Again, the 

7 purpose of it is professionalizing this particular 

8 industry over the last 20, 30 years.

9 Q. Now, what about a reference was made 

10 -- Oh, and I think it looks like from your 

11 performance-based standards for adult and local 

12 detention facilities, from the American Corrections 

13 Association that it was founded in 1870. Is that 

14 what that appears? 

15 MR. BODARY: The document is a hearsay 

16 document. This isn't direct witness 

17 testimony. Object, foundation.

18 MR. FINEGOOD: Fine. All right.

19 Q. You made reference to the National 

20 Commission on Correctional Health Care Standards and 

21 although there was several questions on that subject, 

22 I don't know that, so you were asked directly your 

23 understanding of what that organization actually is. 

24 Can you tell us what that is? 

25 A. Again, it's a professional 

Page 121

1 organization that was designed and developed to 

2 professionalize health care delivery inside of jails, 

3 prisons, lockups and juvenile institutions.

4 Q. And what are -- Do they publish 

5 standards relative to correctional health care and -- 

6 for the jails? 

7 A. Yes, they do.

8 Q. And you have a copy of them here with 

9 you today as one of the publications that you relied 

10 upon in the formation of your opinions in this case; 

11 is that correct? 

12 A. Yes. Those are the documents that 

13 would have been in effect during the time frame of 

14 the particular incident.

15 Q. Now, can you tell us is it your 

16 understanding that the National Commission on 

17 Correction and Health Care Standards does have some 

18 health care standards as it relates to alcohol 

19 withdrawal or delirium tremens? 

20 MR. BODARY: That's an inappropriate 

21 use of literature, so I'll object on that 

22 basis.

23 Q. You can answer.

24 A. Yes. I included some of those in my 

25 report.

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1 Q. Okay. Now, I'd like you to assume 

2 that Dr. Stickney has testified that he's never heard 

3 of the National Commission of Correctional Health 

4 Care Standards, although he's been affiliated with 

5 the Lenawee County Jail for approximately 10 years as 

6 its Medical Director and nor has he ever possessed a 

7 copy of any of the correctional and health care 

8 standards, published by that organization. What is 

9 that -- What relevance would that have to you as 

10 someone who is rendering opinions with respect to the 

11 Lenawee County Jail health care services as it 

12 existed in April of 2007 and as it might related to 

13 Brenda Smith, in particular? 

14 MR. NELSON: Object to form and

15 foundation.

16 MR. BODARY: Object.

17 A. Again, that's a national set of 

18 standards that the corrections industry uses. 

19 Anybody who works in this business I'm assuming, 

20 would have a knowledge, at least a base knowledge of 

21 those particular standards that is the gold standard 

22 for corrections and medical care inside of 

23 corrections in this country.

24 Q. Well, why would it be important to 

25 have standards relating to alcohol withdrawal or 

Page 123

1 delirium tremens in a jail setting anyways? 

2 MR. BODARY: It's inappropriate use of 

3 literature.

4 MR. FINEGOOD: The objection is fine. 

5 Q. Go ahead.

6 A. Because jails deal with that issue 

7 more than any other type of -- part of criminal 

8 justice deal with that issue, probably on a daily 

9 basis inside of jails. Small, medium, large doesn't 

10 matter, that issue is a prevalent issue for all jails 

11 of all sizes and it's becoming more so, not just 

12 alcohol, but also drugs.

13 Q. Is it common knowledge in the 

14 correctional community that inmates can die of 

15 alcohol withdrawal or delirium tremens if not 

16 assessed and managed appropriately?

17 MR. NELSON: Object to foundation.

18 MR. BODARY: I'll object to form, too.

19 A. Based upon my training and experience, 

20 it's a topic that is trained tirelessly inside the 

21 corrections administration circles. It's a, what you 

22 call a hot topic, I guess, within the industry that 

23 we all have been trained and exposed to information 

24 on.

25 Q. How important is it to have nursing, 

Page 124

1 on-site nursing on the weekends or health-trained 

2 correctional officers or custodial staff in a jail 

3 setting? 

4 MR. BODARY: Object as compound, 

5 without foundation.

6 A. From an operational viewpoint, it's 

7 vital to have your staff trained in how to recognize 

8 medical emergencies and describe those behaviors to 

9 the medical people. Having those medical available 

10 is also important some way. To have them on-site is 

11 preferable. Obviously, they can actually observe or 

12 make decisions that that person can be transported to 

13 the medical facility for observation by a medical 

14 person.

15 Q. Now, with respect to the policies of 

16 the Lenawee County Jail as it relates to the role and 

17 function of the medical doctor or physician, I'd like 

18 to show you what we'll call -- Whatever the next 

19 exhibit number is.

20 (Xerographic Document, one page, 

 headed, Policy Number 4.5.1.1, was 

21 marked for identification Exhibit K.)

22 And I'm going to show you what we'll mark as Exhibit 

23 K and reference 4.5.1.1 and ask you, first of all, 

24 does it appear as though it is the description of the 

25 physician's duty to develop and supervise emergency 

Page 125

1 care protocols used by the jail staff? 

2 A. Yes, it does say that.

3 Q. Okay. And I'd like you to assume that 

4 the evidence -- I'd like you to assume that Dr. 

5 Stickney has testified that he cannot recall any 

6 protocols or standing orders or guidelines of any 

7 kind relative to the assessment of risk of alcohol 

8 withdrawal or the management of symptoms associated 

9 with alcohol withdrawal in the Lenawee County Jail 

10 for the 10 years that he's been its Medical Director. 

11 Assuming that to be his testimony, do you believe 

12 that that is consistent with the policy of the 

13 Lenawee County Jail as it might relate to the 

14 function of the Medical Director or physician to 

15 develop policies with respect to emergencies of 

16 inmates? 

17 MR. NELSON: Object to foundation.

18 MR. BODARY: Yeah, I join, foundation 

19 and form.

20 A. Well, one of his duties is to develop 

21 and supervise emergency care protocols used by staff, 

22 so I'm assuming that that includes giving them the 

23 information they need to do (sic), again, just as the 

24 officer, to observe and to defer to get the person to 

25 where they need to go medically.

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1 Q. If Dr. Stickney has testified that he 

2 did not develop any such policies or procedures 

3 because he was working under the assumption that 

4 health care -- excuse me -- that correctional 

5 officers or the custodial staff had zero medical 

6 training and that they wouldn't understand any such 

7 guidelines or protocols as it might relate to alcohol 

8 withdrawal or delirium tremens, how would that -- how 

9 would you view that in terms of an opinion relative 

10 to the deliberate indifference to the health care 

11 needs of inmates at the Lenawee County Jail?

12 MR. NELSON: Object to form and 

13 foundation.

14 MR. BODARY: I'll join.

15 A. Again, first of all, there's no 

16 nursing staff. Somebody has to be there to monitor 

17 them. The nursing staff does not provide that kind 

18 of -- The nursing staff has some role in that to be 

19 able to connect that inmate with the health care 

20 system. It's an inadequate health care system if 

21 there is no connection there that they can get health 

22 care. So if there is no protocol, there is no 

23 requirement for the officer to do something, even if 

24 it is to transport the person to here and there is no 

25 nurse on staff to refer -- to do that function, then 

Page 127

1 there's a hole there and, again, the inmate's access 

2 to medical care, obviously, would be affected.

3 Q. I'd like you to assume -- Well, strike 

4 that. You were aware, based on your review of this 

5 case, that Paul Dye called Dr. Stickney, at about 

6 9:13, on April -- I mean Sunday night, April 29th, 

7 2007, and as he continued his shift until 3:00 a.m., 

8 Monday morning, April 30th and that he did advise the 

9 physician at that time that Brenda Smith was 

10 agitated; that she was hallucinating; that she hadn't 

11 had her day or evening meal; that she was calling 

12 them names and appeared to be experiencing alcohol 

13 withdrawal, would it be your expectation that Paul 

14 Dye would do anything else throughout his shift and 

15 particularly at the end of his shift with respect to 

16 Dr. Stickney, as it might relate to Brenda Smith: 

17 calling him back, calling the ER, doing anything 

18 based on your understanding of what Brenda Smith's 

19 condition was in that period of time.

20 MR. BODARY: Should plaintiff offer 

21 this transcript, rather than defendants, 

22 the leading form of that question is 

23 inappropriate and will be objected to.

24 Q. You can answer.

25 A. Again, if he should notice changes in 

Page 128

1 the behavior and changes in the condition of the 

2 individual inmate, then he would have an obligation 

3 to do something about that. I don't know, if the 

4 doctor gives you a medication -- for example, I can 

5 use myself as an example -- that's not working and I 

6 deteriorate, I need to go back for further medical 

7 evaluation to be safe, because it's his obligation 

8 that those changes and deteriorating (sic), as I 

9 stated before, then his obligation would be to do 

10 something, take some action, some notice to get that 

11 person medical care. 

12 Q. You indicated that you were aware of 

13 what a briefing checklist or a pass-on book was, at 

14 least in terms of a general way of conveying 

15 information from one shift to another; is that 

16 correct? 

17 A. Correct. Different jails call it 

18 different things, supervisor pass book, pass-on book. 

19 It's referred to, but yes, that mechanism.

20 Q. And I'd like you to -- I'd like to 

21 show you -- Excuse me. I'd like for you to -- Strike 

22 that. 

23 Do you recall the substance of the 

24 phone call between Paul Dye and Dr. Stickney, at 

25 least, as it relates to Dr. Stickney's desire or 

Page 129

1 request in one form or another for Brenda Smith to be 

2 seen by the jail nurse, Bonnie, Bonnie Mason on 

3 Monday, the following day; do you recall that 

4 reference in the telephone conversation between Paul 

5 Dye and Dr. Stickney? 

6 A. About having Bonnie follow up, Bonnie 

7 Mason follow up? 

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, I'd like you to take a look at 

11 what was previously marked as Exhibit 3 in the Dotson 

12 deposition and I'd like you to assume, first of all 

13 that what you're looking at is a briefing checklist 

14 from the night platoon of April 29th, 2007, written 

15 in the hand of Paul Dye and ask you, first of all, 

16 does it appear as though there is any reference to 

17 Dr. Stickney's request that Bonnie Mason be seen -- 

18 Bonnie Mason see Brenda Smith at all? 

19 MR. BODARY: I'm going to object to 

20 the lack of form and foundation as it 

21 misstates the communication of the phone 

22 call.

23 A. There's nothing on here about 

24 notifying or having the nurse follow up.

25 Q. It does, indeed, make reference the 

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1 fact and I'm, QUOTING, Dr. Stickney was called. END 

2 QUOTE; correct? 

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Is there any reference in this note in 

5 the pass-on book to suggest what Dr. Stickney said 

6 with respect to Brenda Smith or her health condition? 

7 A. No.

8 Q. Now, I'd like you to assume that 

9 during the night of April 29th throughout the night 

10 and morning of April 30th that Brenda Smith's 

11 condition was observed by Wendy Vanderpool, as an 

12 intake officer stationed directly across or in close 

13 proximity to the observation room or cell that Brenda 

14 Smith was occupying, and that she generated a note 

15 which reflected the activities and actions of Brenda 

16 Smith throughout the evening, including and I'm 

17 quoting, "that she was trying to get out of the door. 

18 She was working hard through the night trying to keep 

19 the wall up and getting her family and friends to 

20 help her and getting upset because they didn't work 

21 as hard as her." And further that, and I'm quoting, 

22 "Her friends and family was just outside and wanted 

23 to go see them, her being covered in sweat from 

24 working so hard," and her missing her -- I'm sorry -- 

25 and having her breakfast passed to her, but her 

Page 131

1 simply messing with it; that she was down in the 

2 middle of the floor and playing quietly with puppies 

3 and she had -- she laid head on the edge of the bed 

4 and was quiet for the most part."

5 Question to you, Mr. Eiser, is would 

6 these be symptoms or -- that would be so obvious to 

7 even a layperson that medical, a medical provider 

8 would be needed under these circumstances? 

9 MR. BODARY: I have to object first 

10 because the document in question is 

11 hearsay. It may be a party admission as to 

12 one individual; it's not an admission as to 

13 others. Secondly, you're asking for an 

14 opinion here that's not part of his 

15 expertise. If he's an expert, he's allowed 

16 to make comment. This is an opinion 

17 that's, allegedly, for lay individuals and 

18 it doesn't include the hypothetical that 

19 applies here. This patient was on two 

20 medications and being managed by a 

21 physician at the time. With those 

22 objections, you can take an answer.

23 Q. You can answer the question.

24 A. In my experience, these are behaviors 

25 that would lead the correctional to note the 

Page 132

1 behaviors and then based on the training or education 

2 refer the individual for some, either medical mental 

3 health, at least, observation or assessment.

4 Q. Well, assuming that she was under -- 

5 she was engaging in misconduct at 3:00 o'clock in the 

6 morning, what would your expectation be with respect 

7 to Paul Dye and what he should or should not have 

8 done relative to Brenda Smith's health care? 

9 MR. BODARY: Objection. Contains an 

10 assumption that's not borne out by the 

11 facts and assumes knowledge of Paul Dye to 

12 those incidents which is not, again, a fact 

13 in evidence. Object to foundation.

14 Q. You can answer.

15 A. Based on my experience and training, I 

16 would attempt to get this person seen by somebody of 

17 the medical -- with medical mental health background 

18 just to ensure her safety. I mean those correction 

19 officers are not there to treat, but yet to observe 

20 behavior and contact and share information with 

21 someone that has that expertise could make a 

22 qualified assessment.

23 Q. I'd like you to assume that Eric 

24 Westgate took over for Paul Dye at 3:00 a.m. on April 

25 30th and continued in his role as Jail Shift 

Page 133

1 Commander `til approximately 8:00 a.m., when Sgt. 

2 Craig took over as Shift Commander. I'd like you to 

3 assume further that Eric Westgate never put any 

4 information in the pass-on book relative to Brenda 

5 Smith at all, let along her condition and/or the need 

6 for medical follow up.

7 The question to you is of what 

8 significance would that be, the failure to put in any 

9 information in the pass-on book by Eric Westgate? 

10 MR. BODARY: Object to form and 

11 stating facts not in evidence and lack of 

12 foundation.

13 A. Again, assuming the situation that you 

14 describe, the supervisor has an obligation to at 

15 least note that information and also document it and 

16 then pass it on to those it would be needed to be 

17 reviewed by to ensure the continuity of observation, 

18 medical care is performed.

19 Q. Your report makes reference to the 

20 fact that Parole Officer Thomas Moore interacted with 

21 Brenda Smith when he arrived at the jail, at 

22 approximately 9:20 a.m., April 30th of 2007. My 

23 question to you is, assuming that he was told by an 

24 untrained, medically untrained corrections officer 

25 and/or intake officer that she was incoherent and out 

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1 of it and that he made an observation that she was 

2 face down in the cell, moaning loudly and that he 

3 made this observation for a period of time and was 

4 informed by Wendy Vanderpool that she was in no state 

5 to be transferred by van anywhere, can you tell me 

6 what duty, if any, that Parole Officer Thomas Moore 

7 would have had to Brenda Smith under the conditions 

8 and facts existing at that time?

9 MR. HIMEBAUGH: Object to lack of 

10 foundation, seeks a legal conclusion.

11 Q. You can answer.

12 A. I can answer from the point of a jail 

13 operations person. Ironically, he she was placed in 

14 there on parole and even when she's in there, the 

15 parole department will -- but if anybody in the 

16 criminal justice system, an officer, sees something 

17 like that, I would expect them, at least, to share 

18 that information with a person in supervision, that 

19 they saw that just to make sure before they left that 

20 -- My expectation would be that they would share that 

21 information with somebody in supervision just to 

22 ensure, again, the continuity of medical care was 

23 being noticed.

24 Q. And by supervision, are you referring 

25 to jail supervision?

Page 135

1 A. At this point, yes.

2 Q. Now, with respect to jail -- Well, 

3 strike that. I'd like to show you a document 

4 previously marked as Deposition Exhibit 6, from 

5 Steenrod and indicate for the record that those are 

6 policies of the Michigan Department of Corrections as 

7 it relates to medical emergencies and the need to 

8 respond to emergencies within a window of time. I 

9 think it's referencing within four minutes. 

10 My question to you is, first of all, 

11 would those Michigan Department of Corrections 

12 policies have relevance in this case as it may relate 

13 to the parole officer's duties as it relates to 

14 medical emergencies and his observations of them 

15 relative to a parole detainee in the county jail, as 

16 opposed to the prison system.

17 MR. HIMEBAUGH: Objection, foundation 

18 because he doesn't know the interaction 

19 between him and those in the jail.

20 Q. Again, I am not an expert and 

21 knowledgeable about how the Michigan Department of 

22 Corrections works. This policy states -- The policy, 

23 itself, talks about an -- the standard that I alluded 

24 to about response time. Generally, their expectation 

25 is for officers in any criminal justice agency that 

Page 136

1 when you see something like that, you take, at least, 

2 some action, go and notify and make sure the 

3 situation is under control then you can tend to the 

4 situation. I think in this context, the parole 

5 officer, like I stated before, being an officer in 

6 criminal justice has some responsibility, at least, 

7 to ensure that the individual is getting proper 

8 medical care based upon what he saw.

9 Q. Does it appear as thought the DOC 

10 policy that you're -- that's referenced here is in 

11 any way consistent or otherwise to the standards set 

12 forth in the adult local detention facilities, 

13 promulgated by the American Corrections Association, 

14 in particular 4d-24 as it relates to correctional and 

15 health care personnel, relating to emergency medical 

16 situations? 

17 A. Are you talking about the same format 

18 and response time, so I'm assuming that it was 

19 modeled after the American Corrections Association 

20 standards. In fact, the NCH standards are listed 

21 right above, in the box, so I'm not sure if they're 

22 basing those on those things.

23 Q. You said earlier it was ironic that 

24 she was held on a -- her status at the Lenawee County 

25 Jail was one as a parole violator, if you will. What 

Page 137

1 did you mean by that? 

2 A. Well, it's different in every state, 

3 but in Ohio, the State Parole inmates are technically 

4 State prisoners and I'm not sure what the setup is in 

5 the state of Michigan in terms of that, whether they 

6 actually a state prisoner which the State would then 

7 have to pay for housing, so there's some obligation 

8 to pay for and supervise and be accountable for that 

9 inmate.

10 Q. Now, as far as the Lenawee County is 

11 concerned, you were aware that Dennis Steenrod, Jail 

12 Commander, had authored a memo in April -- on Apri 

13 2nd of 2007, addressing the health care services of 

14 the Lenawee County Jail and concluding that health 

15 care provided to inmates was, indeed, inadequate; you 

16 were aware of that fact? 

17 A. Yes, I read that.

18 MR. BODARY: Object to the form of the 

19 question.

20 Q. Well, would the fact that Jail 

21 Commander Steenrod had authored such a memo on April 

22 7, 2007, establish the county and their Sheriff's 

23 knowledge of the inadequacies of the jail health care 

24 at the Lenawee County Jail?

25 MR. BODARY: Object. Lack of 

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1 foundation.

2 A. As a former jail administrator, he's 

3 probably the best person to be in a position to 

4 notify the Sheriff of the condition of the medical 

5 care given to the inmates of his jail, but yes, he'd 

6 be the best person to do that and he did that.

7 Q. What about the fact that the jail did 

8 nothing to address -- to make any immediate changes 

9 with respect to the inadequacies outlined by 

10 Administrator Steenrod for a period of over -- well 

11 up to 60 days when the new health care provider took 

12 effect on June 1st, 2007? 

13 MR. BODARY: Obviously -- I'm sorry. 

14 Go ahead.

15 Q. What is your opinion in that regard?

16 MR. BODARY: That's a broad question, 

17 not limited to his expertise, not relevant 

18 to the communication that pertains -- 

19 misrepresents the facts.

20 Q. Go ahead. You can answer.

21 A. They did take the action, I guess, 

22 pursuing a medical contract, but that doesn't help 

23 the inmates if they come in the next day and the day 

24 after and the day after within a 60-day period, so 

25 again, my recommendation, my opinion would be the 

Page 139

1 specifics that led to Mr. Steenrod saying that the 

2 data that was published at its base needs to be 

3 analyzed immediately and then an action needs to be 

4 developed right away to be able to address those 

5 specific inadequacies and not just to say it, but 

6 once you analyze it and you have the data which I'm 

7 assuming he did by making those statements, then a 

8 procedure should have been addressed at that point by 

9 the administration and the Sheriff to address those 

10 inadequacies, not waiting 60 days, but immediately.

11 MR. FINEGOOD: All right. I have no 

12 further questions. Thank you.

13 RE-EXAMINATION

14 BY MR. BODARY:

15 Q. Mr. Eiser, based on the report that 

16 you prepared, marked Exhibit F in your testimony 

17 today, have you told us all the criticisms you expect 

18 to offer at the time of trial? 

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. You don't expect to add anything new? 

21 A. Unless, again, addition information is 

22 -- but I don't expect to, no.

23 Q. And if the inadequacy -- First of all, 

24 a jail, county jails often -- and it has to respond 

25 to a Board of Commissioners relative to staffing and 

Page 140

1 staffing expenses? 

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. If the inadequacy is nursing hours and 

4 the means of correcting the number of nursing hours 

5 is a contract with an independent health contractor, 

6 like you had in Hamilton County, it requires action 

7 of the Board of Commissioners to do that; doesn't it? 

8 A. Again, I'm not sure of the policies of 

9 the jurisdiction. In our case, alluding to my 

10 facility, we would take immediate action and again, 

11 the contract, itself, is important as to what you can 

12 and cannot do, so the knowledge of the contract you 

13 have with that particular agency -- If you have no 

14 contract at that point, some step needs to be taken.

15 Q. If you have a contract? 

16 A. If you have a contract, then you look 

17 in the contract and see what has -- the remedies 

18 within the contract are not immediately step outside 

19 the contract and approach immediately for solutions.

20 Q. And it takes some time; does it not, 

21 for a new contracting entity to set up its -- for an 

22 entity to go into a jail? Do you know what the lag 

23 time is for when you talk and negotiate with these 

24 contractors as to when they go into the jail? 

25 MR. FINEGOOD: Objection to the form 

Page 141

1 of the question. Go ahead.

2 A. As an operational person, yes, I know 

3 about the time, but it does not -- the lack of funds 

4 and the lack of money never, ever will compromise the 

5 medical care you can give to inmates, but if you know 

6 a problem, you need to deal with it immediately.

7 Q. If the problem is as perceived that 

8 more nursing time could be acquired for the same or a 

9 little more money, but it requires action of the 

10 Board of Commissioners, not an independent act. 

11 Well, first of all, let me do this: You said what 

12 you would do in Ohio. You don't know what the 

13 processes are in Lenawee County; do you? 

14 A. I just alluded to that. I don't know 

15 what your commissioner process is.

16 Q. Right.

17 A. I'm not aware of that.

18 Q. So you don't know what the Sheriff 

19 could have done besides signing the contract in order 

20 to increase the number of nursing hours at the jail; 

21 do you? 

22 A. Well, nursing was one of many of the 

23 different issues --

24 Q. So my question as to nursing, you 

25 don't know what he had to do? 

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1 A. I have no knowledge of that; right.

2 Q. And you don't know what he had to do 

3 in order to get an X-ray machine in there; do you? 

4 MR. FINEGOOD: Objection. Irrelevant.

5 A. I'm not aware --

6 Q. In Lenawee County.

7 A. -- of Lenawee County procedures; no, 

8 sir.

9 Q. You don't know what he had to do in 

10 order to get a physician's presence, physical 

11 presence within the jail? You don't know what the 

12 process would have been; do you? 

13 A. If you're talking monetarily, that 

14 process, no. A phone call sometimes will solve these 

15 things in my experience.

16 Q. Well, you have no experience in 

17 Lenawee County? 

18 A. I said my experience.

19 Q. That's Ohio. I asked you about 

20 Lenawee. So you don't know what could be done; do 

21 you? 

22 A. Not exactly, no.

23 MR. BODARY: I have nothing further.

24 MR. NELSON: I just have a few 

25 follow-up questions.

Page 143

1 RE-EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. NELSON:

3 Q. Mr. Finegood indicated that Dr. 

4 Stickney testified in his deposition that he never 

5 heard of the NCCH. Now, you testified earlier you've 

6 never read Dr. Stickney's transcript; correct? 

7 MR. FINEGOOD: No, he hasn't. It 

8 hasn't been transcribed yet.

9 Q. But you haven't read it?

10 A. Right.

11 Q. Even assuming, hypothetically, that 

12 was said, not knowing who the NCCH is, does not, by 

13 itself, rise to a deliberate indifference; does it? 

14 A. No.

15 Q. All right. He also indicated that by 

16 showing you an exhibit that there was -- that Dr. 

17 Stigney was under contract and had a duty to 

18 establish protocols and procedures and things of that 

19 nature. If there was a procedure in place with 

20 Bonnie Mason, regarding alcohol withdrawal or DT's, 

21 that would not -- that would be appropriate; would it 

22 not? 

23 MR. FINEGOOD: Objection. Objection. 

24 It assumes facts not in evidence. There is 

25 no -- There's no documentation and it's 

Page 144

1 inappropriate to question him on it.

2 MR. NELSON: Just as inappropriate to 

3 question him about a deposition transcript 

4 he hasn't read, but anyway, assuming that 

5 there were policies in place with Bonnie 

6 Mason, that would satisfy any obligation he 

7 may have had under a contract; would it 

8 not? 

9 MR. FINEGOOD: Question is vague.

10 A. Again, I don't know exactly what 

11 you're asking. In terms of protocols and policy, to 

12 my understanding did not exist, but yes, if they did 

13 exist, you had to look at `em and see if they were 

14 adequate for what they're intended to do.

15 Q. All right. But the fact remains that 

16 if a protocol or a procedure, even if it is somewhat 

17 vague or it doesn't necessarily dictate, you know, 

18 what procedure is to be carried out, that does not, 

19 by itself, rise to deliberate indifference; does it? 

20 A. Say that again.

21 Q. If there is not a procedure in place, 

22 that would not rise to the level of deliberate 

23 indifference? 

24 MR. FINEGOOD: Well, the question is 

25 vague. What procedure are you referring 

Page 145

1 to? 

2 A. It's a life threatening -- Depends on 

3 the issue of the reason for the procedure.

4 Q. Okay. It depends on the issues and 

5 the facts and circumstances that are involved in 

6 every case? 

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. And a procedure does not 

9 or a protocol does not have to be written to be a 

10 procedure or protocol; does it? 

11 A. Again, in this industry, there are, 

12 I'm sure, unwritten procedures. Recommendations in 

13 the National standards is that they're written. It's 

14 been that way for decades.

15 Q. But the fact that a procedure is in 

16 place or a protocol is in place that is not written, 

17 as long as it, in some way, refers to health care of 

18 inmates or something like that, that would be 

19 appropriate and it wouldn't be deliberately 

20 indifferent.

21 A. I would never say appropriate because 

22 I think it needs to be written and documented so that 

23 those people, I could die tomorrow and the guy's 

24 going to take over. You need to have that continuity 

25 of information. So, again, that's something that the 

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1 professionalism of corrections has tried to 

2 eliminate, unwritten protocols.

3 Q. So it's a recommendation, but as you 

4 stated, there's recommendations and --

5 A. Standards.

6 Q. -- it's a judgment call as to whether 

7 you follow that recommendation or not.

8 A. It's a standard in the industry.

9 Q. And as I stated, a standard is a 

10 benchmark or a guideline, not a mandatory dictate?

11 A. Correct.

12 MR. NELSON: I have nothing further.

13 EXAMINATION

14 BY MR. HIMEBAUGH:

15 Q. I forget, did you review the 

16 deposition of Dennis Steenrod and Tom Moore? 

17 A. I have them. I have not read them 

18 yet. I got those today.

19 Q. Okay. You just received those for the 

20 first time today? 

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 MR. HIMEBAUGH: That's all I have.

23 RE-EXAMINATION

24 MR. FINEGOOD:

25 Q. Would you expect to take a resolution 

Page 147

1 of the Board of Commissioners of a county to change 

2 the hours of a part-time nurse from three days a week 

3 for 18.5 hours to taking some portion of that to 

4 perform her duties on weekends? 

5 MR. BODARY: Lack of foundation. He 

6 doesn't know on weekends. 

7 A. Any situation that came up in my 

8 experience that was either life threatening or vital 

9 to the operation of the jail, we have a mechanism in 

10 Ohio that you go to the County Administrator, who 

11 works for the Board of County Commissioners, tell him 

12 about that situation and get an immediate audience 

13 with the Commissioner or Commissioners, who can make 

14 a decision -- But again, it gives some leeway and 

15 most counties and governments have that leeway in 

16 emergencies to have some type of mechanism in place 

17 to have that available to their department heads.

18 Q. From your review of the documents and 

19 record in this particular case, did it appear as 

20 though there was any actions on the part of the jail, 

21 if you will, the Sheriff, the under-Sheriff and or 

22 the Jail Commander to immediately rectify the fact 

23 that there is no on-site nursing available on the 

24 weekends or for that matter, qualified train -- 

25 excuse me -- health-trained corrections officers 

Page 148

1 available on weekends at the Lenawee County Jail?

2 MR. BODARY: There's no foundation for 

3 his response. He hasn't read depositions. 

4 He's only seen the records of this 

5 incarceration. That question lacks 

6 foundation.

7 Q. You can answer.

8 A. Based on what I have reviewed, I see 

9 no action.

10 Q. Okay.

11 MR. FINEGOOD: I have nothing further.

12 - - - 

13 (At 2:15 o'clock, PM, the deposition was concluded.)

14 - - -

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 149

1 C E R T I F I C A T E

2 STATE OF OHIO )

 ) SS:

3 COUNTY OF HAMILTON)

4 I, Edna M. Hawkins, the undersigned, a duly 

5 qualified and commissioned Notary Public within and 

6 for the State of Ohio, do hereby certify that before 

7 the giving of his aforesaid deposition the said JEFF 

8 EISER was sworn to depose the truth, the whole truth 

9 and nothing but the truth; that the foregoing is the 

10 deposition given at said time and place by the said 

11 JEFF EISER; that said deposition was taken in all 

12 respects pursuant to agreement and stipulations of 

13 counsel hereinbefore set forth; that said deposition 

14 was taken by me; that the transcribed deposition was 

15 not submitted to the witness for his examination and 

16 signature; that I am neither a relative of nor 

17 attorney for any of the parties to this cause, nor 

18 relative of nor employee of any of their counsel and 

19 have no interest whatever in the result of the 

20 action.

21 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand 

22 at Cincinnati, Ohio, this 15th day of May, 2010.

23

24 ___________________________

 My Commission Expires: Edna M. Hawkins

25 September 17, 2012 Notary Public - State of Ohio

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JEFF EISER MARCH 1, 2010

ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

Page 1

A

able 22:14 126:19 139:4

abnormal 73:10,12,13

absence 98:8,14 99:11

99:20,20 100:11,12

110:17

absolutely 7:2 62:14

69:10 76:9 92:22

118:21

ACA 32:4,9,10,18,20

33:1,21 80:19 82:6,21

ACC 32:7

acceptable 82:7

access 90:15 109:8

127:1

accidentally 104:17

account 81:12

accountable 137:8

accredit 34:15 83:4

accreditation 33:12

35:24,25

accredited 24:5,7,15

25:9,18,23,24 31:23

32:13,16,25 33:9 81:20

82:5,21,24 83:3

accredits 32:8 33:15

35:22

accuracy 77:15

accurate 78:2

ACI 19:17

acknowledge 100:8

acquired 141:8

act 39:21 54:21 89:9

94:18 98:7 141:10

acted 20:14 94:24

108:14

acting 47:22 55:2 73:3

action 37:20 40:5,24

41:5,11 43:18,19 44:11

44:12 45:11,12 53:12

73:1 93:25 94:1 97:20

113:22 128:10 136:2

138:21 139:3 140:6,10

141:9 148:9 149:20

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130:15 147:20

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64:15 130:15

activity 107:3

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66:5,6,14,15

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103:13 139:21

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79:20

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88:19 123:5 138:14,20

141:1

al 2:9

Albert 2:15

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29:2 38:8 40:7,11

41:24 43:14 47:18

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91:17 101:23 102:6

103:10 106:6,10

110:14,16,23 111:12

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122:25 123:12,15

125:7,9 126:7 127:12

143:20

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131:15

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70:14 82:3 87:7 88:16

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127:24 131:22,23

132:14 134:11,12

138:20 148:7

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116:2

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62:7

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124:24 129:16 136:9

147:19

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145:21

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26:21 65:15 122:5

133:1,22

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Apri 137:12

April 38:9,14 39:23 70:23

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97:14 122:12 127:6,6,8

129:14 130:9,10

132:24 133:22 137:12

137:21

area 89:20

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Around-the-clock 29:13

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ASA 35:16,17

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10:12,19,21,23,25

12:14 19:11 25:13

33:16 71:18 73:24

78:11,12 87:1 92:2

104:16,18 115:16

120:22 142:19

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49:25 55:9 59:5 64:8

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88:14 89:1 98:13 99:16

99:23,25 100:7 101:11

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132:22

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34:11 35:18 105:14

119:13,16,17 120:1,6

120:13 136:13,19

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45:5 47:5 48:6 49:3,6

52:2 67:5,21 71:8 75:2

102:4 110:22 122:1

125:3,4 127:3 129:12

130:8 132:23 133:3

assumed 5:5

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55:19 67:14 68:3 74:24

132:11 143:24

assuming 39:6 62:2,3

64:3 66:3 73:16 109:14

122:19 125:11,22

132:4 133:13,23

136:18 139:7 143:11

144:4

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107:17 149:17

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114:7

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147:17,23 148:1

Avenue 2:15

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49:10 51:6,22,23 54:15

64:20,22,24,25 67:7,24

92:4 127:4 128:12

137:11,16 141:17

142:5

a.m 1:16 44:4,5 49:7,8,9

55:8 63:25 67:23 71:13

78:5 87:10,12 127:7

132:24 133:1,22

A400B45 1:25

B

B 20:24

Bachelor 117:13

back 10:7 15:16 28:4

67:20 70:4 106:22

107:16 116:13 127:17

128:6

background 117:12

132:17

bad 52:20,21,22 60:8

Baker 1:10 2:8 70:16,16

71:3,8,9 74:16 88:5

89:2 93:1

banking 53:5

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139:2

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42:20 52:2 54:3,25

55:21 74:10,14 76:8

91:8,8 102:18 119:22

123:19 127:4,18 132:1

132:15 136:8 139:15

148:8

bases 111:6

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basis 121:22 123:9

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bed 131:3

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29:7,8,9 118:6

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beginning 13:7

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88:24 94:24 100:19

128:1 132:20

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124:8 131:24 132:1

belief 59:11 60:2

believe 5:22 11:14 18:18

20:20 21:24 22:23

23:15 25:12 26:24 29:8

29:18 32:24 34:1 35:10

37:21 43:3 48:19 51:10

55:1 58:24 61:1,8 77:3

77:9 78:14 90:12 97:12

101:20 109:1 114:15

114:21 125:11

believed 49:22

believes 69:11

benchmark 110:7 146:10

benchmarks 82:7 119:24

Benzodiazepine 43:23

Bernice 1:9 2:8 70:16,16

71:3,8,9 74:15 88:5

89:1 93:1

best 13:23 23:21 138:3,6

beyond 15:22 80:21

big 23:14

bill 4:25 16:14 52:13

billed 15:22

billing 15:9 16:8,20,24

billings 15:18

binder 10:13 11:7,9,15

11:19,19,25 12:19

18:10,11

birth 4:17

bit 119:8

blank 26:4

Board 139:25 140:7

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Bodary 2:9,9 3:4 4:6 12:3

18:16,19,21 20:9 36:22

37:5,11,14 46:2,8 57:4

64:4 68:5 76:22 78:6

78:20 80:13 82:4 87:3

88:18 90:9 91:2 93:10

93:14,17 96:6,12 100:7

103:1,4 104:8 112:17

112:20 118:19 120:15

121:20 122:16 123:2

123:18 124:4 125:18

126:14 127:20 129:19

131:9 132:9 133:10

137:18,25 138:13,16

139:14 142:23 147:5

148:2

bodies 105:22

boil 107:6

bold 90:14

Bonita 6:10 77:5

Bonnie 102:2 129:2,2,6,6

129:17,18 143:20

144:5

book 67:18 128:13,18,18

130:5 133:4,9

booked 44:15,19 71:9

85:21

books 19:12,16

borne 132:10

bottom 38:6 56:11 91:3

Boulevard 1:17

box 69:13 70:5 136:21

break 106:16

breakfast 130:25

breakup 106:13 108:16

Brenda 1:3,4 21:1 36:9

51:8 57:23 90:15,21

122:13 127:9,16,18

129:1,18 130:6,10,13

130:15 132:8 133:4,21

134:7

brief 115:22

briefing 128:13 129:13

briefly 27:1 113:16

bring 15:9 19:12 20:3

67:4

bringing 17:17

broad 138:16

brought 5:13 6:3 11:9

19:14 80:2

budget 26:18,20,22

27:15 83:5,11,21 116:1

budgeted 83:20

budgets 83:16

building 4:23

bunk 72:8

bunyon 84:9

bunyons 84:1

Bureau 23:24 24:1

business 4:13 117:22

122:19

Butler 25:12

C

C 149:1,1

call 7:23 8:3 17:10,17

29:22 32:22 45:7,19

46:15,23 47:1,14,25

50:17 52:1,4,7,9,10,14

53:21,25 61:3 62:23

63:13 69:1 86:8,14,18

86:19,21 87:10,13 92:6

94:2 104:1 115:17

123:22 124:18 128:17

128:24 129:22 142:14

146:6

called 23:23 27:5,25 28:2

28:5,9 31:18 32:23

40:15,15 41:7,12 45:2

54:17 55:15 67:24

85:24 86:6 109:23

127:5 130:1

calling 46:9 127:11,17

127:17

calls 7:23 101:4

camera 55:13 58:2 59:7

59:12,16,21 60:3,4

88:5

capacity 27:6 116:11

card 109:3

care 26:23 27:19 33:25

62:12 63:10 66:16 68:2

74:16 80:21,25 83:6,11

83:17,22 84:4,5 90:16

90:22 95:4 96:1 97:4

104:6 113:6 119:6

120:20 121:2,5,17,18

122:4,7,11,22 125:1,21

126:4,10,19,20,22

127:2 128:11 132:8

133:18 134:22 136:8

136:15 137:13,15,23

138:5,11 141:5 145:17

career 106:24 117:2,7

118:8

careful 7:10 36:15 39:11

79:14

carried 144:18

case 1:6 5:1,12 8:17,25

10:2 12:13 14:3 17:6

21:1 22:22 30:5 35:5

36:9,16 38:11 57:2,6

59:19,20 66:7 70:18

76:17,23 77:21 79:14

79:19 81:3,17 85:20

90:15 96:23 97:3,8

102:10 107:18 121:10

127:5 135:12 140:9

145:6 147:19

cases 3:18 9:5 12:17

20:14,18,25 21:4,5,8

21:12,15,22,25 22:7,15

96:16,18,22 97:25

107:14 108:11,14,18

categorize 32:20

cause 17:20 70:14 76:11

98:9 100:3 149:17

caused 51:25

ceased 56:15,20 58:8

cell 39:2,17 46:18 52:24

55:2,12 56:15 58:8

59:13 63:3,5 64:21

71:21,25 72:1,2,3,4,8,9

72:17 73:15 130:13

134:2

cells 27:9

census 30:1

center 26:1 27:6,7 28:1

28:19 29:4

certain 79:15 103:15

certainty 91:10 92:17

95:23

certification 34:23,24

35:6 105:11,23

certifications 104:23

105:13 106:1

certified 4:3 24:19,24

30:14 33:9 34:20,20

104:24 105:4,12,14,18

105:20,21

certify 149:6

cetera 105:5

change 45:16,22 46:5

51:25 52:5 54:16 55:23

55:24 61:6 68:21 76:14

76:15 86:21,23 87:9,10

88:7,24 89:3,9,9,10,11

89:13,14 94:5 147:1

changed 45:17,21 86:6

86:18

changes 20:4 42:7,12

68:24 76:14 127:25

128:1,8 138:8

characterize 118:1 120:1

characterized 92:8

charge 15:6 16:22 23:24

67:22,22 78:22 79:2

116:22

chargeable 74:20

charging 79:6

chart 61:15

check 44:17,20

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chemical 42:24

chest 102:6

Chief 112:16

choice 14:16 60:8

choose 12:9

Cincinnati 1:18 4:16

117:21 149:22

circle 22:14

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circumstance 74:1,5,17

circumstances 45:16,17

74:8,11 75:25 76:14

110:9 131:8 145:5

citations 19:12

Civil 7:4 60:12 99:12,21

claim 36:17 54:1,2 63:15

67:11 71:1 75:23

claiming 56:25 63:23

75:14,18,19

classes 41:23 117:19

classification 65:19

classified 28:24

clear 80:10

clerical 65:19

Cleveland 23:16

clients 70:17

clinic 27:17,20

close 113:14 117:3

130:12

closed 27:15

closest 55:12

CMS 113:5

Code 34:25

collectiveness 60:16

COLON 56:16

com 10:3

combination 64:17

come 11:6 28:24 35:22

76:11 138:23

comfortable 10:1

coming 91:21 118:22

Commander 95:2,24

96:10 116:13,18,21

133:1,2 137:12,21

147:22

commencing 1:16

comment 38:4 41:12

131:16

commission 31:6,8,14

31:14,19 33:15 120:20

121:16 122:3 149:24

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149:5

commissioner 141:15

147:13

Commissioners 139:25

140:7 141:10 147:1,11

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committees 119:22

commode 72:8

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123:13

communicate 69:15 70:8

communicated 49:21

77:23

communicating 43:15

communication 129:21

138:18

community 119:20

123:14

companies 113:4

company 5:1

compare 12:7,24 20:21

comparison 118:2

Complaint 10:22

complete 5:20 51:2

completely 109:8

completing 20:7

complication 84:24

compound 96:5 124:4

compromise 141:4

computer 51:9

computer-based 51:21

concern 47:22 53:25

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concerning 96:16 97:20

concerns 47:21 52:3

53:17 93:23

conclude 91:5

concluded 148:13

concluding 137:14

conclusion 76:12 101:5

134:10

condition 37:18,21 39:4

39:5,17,24,25 40:25

43:6 45:20 46:10 48:17

52:6,11 53:8 54:16

55:14 56:13 65:1 67:12

72:19 74:22 75:8,18

84:11 87:16 89:4 91:17

92:3,6,12,15 118:23

127:19 128:1 130:6,11

133:5 138:4

conditions 42:1 45:21

50:21 51:8 90:24 99:14

118:10 119:4 134:7

connect 126:19

connection 126:21

conscious 25:21

consciously 25:20

consider 47:25 107:4

consistent 125:12

136:11

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constantly 68:21

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Constitutionally 83:25

Consultant 14:19

contact 9:16 37:23,24

55:13 67:2 132:20

contacted 37:25 39:22

80:14

contacts 67:1

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contains 11:20 132:9

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context 25:2 91:22 136:4

continue 42:15

continued 40:16 45:22

56:13 67:10 127:7

132:25

continuity 133:17 134:22

145:24

contract 113:3,4 138:22

140:5,11,12,14,15,16

140:17,18,19 141:19

143:17 144:7

contracting 140:21

contractor 140:5

contractors 140:24

contracts 116:7,7

control 136:3

conversation 8:24 12:13

35:10,12 52:17 54:6

60:23 62:6,18 76:18

77:4 129:4

conversations 8:18,21

conveying 128:14

cooperation 111:18,22

copies 6:6 50:24

copy 52:13 57:13 121:8

122:7

corporation 5:1

correct 4:11 7:14 11:21

17:12,20 19:7,24,25

20:19 22:8 26:20 28:17

33:5 36:12 40:12 41:6

45:8 50:21,22 56:6

59:14 60:1,15 61:4,5,7

62:15 69:1,5,9,16,20

70:8 71:25 78:1,2 79:1

79:5,9,11,12,16 80:3

81:4,6,14 82:19 85:25

86:7 92:7,10,13 94:3,4

94:6,7,9 95:8,9 104:7

104:20 109:18,24,25

110:4,10,11 111:3,4,8

111:13,14 115:2,14,15

121:11 128:16,17

130:2,3 143:6 146:11

corrected 80:16

correcting 140:4

correction 54:8,9 78:9

112:4 121:17 132:18

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JEFF EISER MARCH 1, 2010

ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

correctional 6:25 9:5

26:13 27:10 33:23,24

34:23 35:6 36:7,12

45:14 48:4,8 51:13

55:4 65:16,18,21 68:14

68:18 71:12 72:24 74:6

74:17 86:13 91:15

97:23 98:23 102:1

112:1 113:5 118:16

119:13,15,17 120:1,20

121:5 122:3,7 123:14

124:2 126:4 131:25

136:14

corrections 19:16 34:20

35:20 38:20 73:7 81:24

82:8 85:1,2,16 92:21

104:25 105:15,18,22

110:5 111:20 115:20

115:21 116:3 117:25

118:4 119:19,21 120:6

120:12 122:18,22,23

123:21 133:24 135:6

135:11,22 136:13,19

146:1 147:25

corrective 40:24 41:5,10

53:12

correctly 48:15

correspondence 18:22

cost 31:22,24 32:6 83:1

COTE 2:13

counsel 16:3 35:13

44:25 58:12 79:22

149:13,18

count 23:19 101:18,19

counter 45:4

counteract 61:19

counties 23:10,14,16

147:15

country 122:23

county 1:8 2:7 23:3,6,20

23:22 24:8,12,15,16

25:4,12,22 26:3,9 27:3

27:5 29:25 30:1,6,7,8,8

30:11 36:3 50:25 65:4

65:12 81:18 83:6,15

91:9 101:22 102:11

103:18 108:3,24 112:1

112:3,10,11,22 113:9

113:18 114:3,12,19

115:22 117:24,25

118:3,5 122:5,11

124:16 125:9,13

126:11 135:15 136:24

137:10,14,22,24

139:24 140:6 141:13

142:6,7,17 147:1,10,11

148:1 149:3

couple 117:18

course 13:3 48:11 90:13

109:12

courses 104:23

court 1:1,19,23 22:19

29:1

courtesy 88:17,18

court-ordered 28:11,25

coverage 102:12,13

covered 104:2 111:6

130:23

Craig 1:9 2:7 67:6,6,11

67:16,19,21 68:1,7

93:2 133:2

create 13:9,25 114:8

created 13:6 31:13

111:15,19

criminal 14:18 117:14

123:7 134:16 135:25

136:6

critical 7:4 40:2 90:17

109:15

criticisms 36:5 113:18

139:17

culpable 39:21

current 20:22

currently 112:12

curricula 105:3

Curriculum 3:17 20:1,2

20:11

custodial 124:2 126:5

Cuyahoga 23:15,18

C.V 105:8

D

D 2:4,4 3:1

daily 123:8

damaged 56:3

dangerous 71:23

data 65:19 139:2,6

date 4:17 5:19,21 6:20

15:17 18:12,24 48:22

48:24 80:8,11 113:7

dated 3:16 14:22 15:14

18:22

dates 80:5,5,7 95:16

97:15

Dave 104:13

David 1:7 2:14

day 15:19 16:13 27:22

29:18 38:16,21 39:8,13

60:17,19 62:19,24

68:16 69:14 70:23 71:6

71:8,10 72:15 74:20

78:23,25 79:3,8,24

81:1 94:8 100:23

113:10,11 127:11

129:3 138:23,23,24

149:22

days 38:2 40:1,6,17

138:11 139:10 147:2

Dayton 117:14,20

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141:6

dealing 108:23

deals 118:21

dealt 97:4,9 113:4

death 57:7,14 84:24

85:13

decades 145:14

Deceased 1:3,4

December 5:20 7:14

8:17 14:22 36:6

decided 58:20 69:19

deciding 81:9

decision 69:17 74:14

147:14

decisions 48:9 124:12

dedicated 28:14

defendant 2:12,17 19:5

defendants 1:12,14 2:7

3:11 39:21 66:11

127:21

defense 108:16,18

defer 89:16,21 109:19

125:24

defined 86:3,10

degree 20:7 106:25

107:2

deliberate 36:20 53:15

71:21 75:24 97:3 98:3

98:19,23 99:17 100:14

101:14 110:25 126:10

143:13 144:19,22

deliberately 36:8,17

39:12 51:16 55:17

63:15 64:6 75:17 86:16

98:16 99:6 103:22

104:5 145:19

delirium 41:24 42:10

121:19 123:1,15 126:8

deliverate 41:1

delivery 121:2

denied 90:15,22

Dennis 6:9 115:1 137:11

146:16

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Depending 25:16

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deposition 1:13,15 4:7

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22:15 41:16 78:15 79:2

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108:1,2,7 148:3

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dollars 32:2 78:23

domestic 28:12

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door 130:17

dosage 89:22

dosaging 90:6

dose 111:7

dosing 48:5

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double-jobbed 116:15

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67:7 72:17 74:19 85:13

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106:6,10 110:15,17,24

111:12,16 143:20

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duly 4:2 149:4

duties 71:15 125:20

135:13 147:4

duty 63:21 65:10 69:2

75:20 124:25 134:6

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129:15 132:7,11,24

Dye's 52:16 53:21 54:6

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enclosures 19:4

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ends 50:1

enforcement 9:7,10

71:12 117:7

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entirety 56:7

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entries 58:20

entry 50:8,9 57:20,24

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environment 85:1

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essence 94:10

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examined 4:3

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exceeded 83:11

excuse 18:21 69:3 78:20

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exhibit 5:16,18 7:16 10:9

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existed 122:12

existing 134:8

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105:9 106:16,23 107:8

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experts 9:15 19:5 89:16

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exposed 123:23

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extensive 28:10 29:2

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F 3:13 14:20,21 19:24

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face 134:2

facilities 26:11,13 27:3,5

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facility 27:2,9,10,15,24

27:25 28:3,10,19,20

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facts 17:5,25 31:21

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67:14 68:3 74:24 76:4

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file 1:25 14:17 109:5

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finish 106:25

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FIRM 2:13

first 4:2 5:11 8:24 9:8,18

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five 13:18 58:8 87:2

flat 79:7

floor 2:19 65:7,8 109:3

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focus 93:18

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68:18,20,22 77:1,6,21

99:19 129:6,7,24 133:6

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followed 41:14 110:2,3,8

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follow-up 39:25 142:25

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force 19:18

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forgot 26:7 72:13

form 64:1 87:1 88:9

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format 136:17

formation 121:10

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founded 30:18 120:13

four 13:18 14:8 15:14,18

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29:20 60:19 89:4

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fourth 28:2 38:7

four-to-six 14:4

frame 58:13 59:8 121:13

FRCVP 1:14

Friday 29:17

friends 130:19,22

front 11:23

full 79:3 106:22,23,24

full-service 27:7 118:7

function 69:24 116:10

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functions 79:7 116:8

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fundamental 92:22

funds 141:3

further 54:2,21 94:11

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general 2:18 128:14

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gentleman 64:5

getting 47:23 61:19,25

96:8,9 117:19 130:19

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give 6:21 46:3 73:17

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given 7:22 8:2 17:5 21:15

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gives 128:4 147:14

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gonna 45:2 107:25

good 60:25 62:19,23,24

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government 31:13

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Green 4:20

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guess 13:22 52:3 71:6,7

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guessing 26:8 30:2

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guideline 110:1,10

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hang 84:1,9

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Hawkins 1:18 149:4,24

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headed 5:15 12:4 14:18

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hearsay 120:15 131:11

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history 47:18

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house 28:16

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HUCKABAY 2:9

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Huntergreen 4:15,21

Huntington 4:20

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hypothetically 89:15

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identification 5:16 12:5

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illustrated 39:1

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impact 99:21

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individual 34:18 38:3

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individuals 28:14 36:3

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inside 82:10 121:2

122:22 123:9,20

inspected 22:24 25:5

inspection 23:25 30:6

institution 82:16

institutions 33:24 74:17

121:3

intake 27:7 28:19,19

40:15 41:16,17 55:12

66:21,22,23 67:1 70:19

70:21,22 71:14,15

72:16 73:3 118:18

119:7 130:12 133:25

Intelligent 1:17

intelligible 100:16

intended 144:14

intent 37:17

interacted 133:20

interaction 135:18

interest 149:19

interject 45:1

intermittent 42:16

interplay 97:24

interpretation 77:18

interrogatories 10:22

interrupted 42:20

interval 64:10

interview 119:1

inverse 100:8

investigate 106:18

investigation 57:8,14,18

investigative 10:23

inviting 103:6

involved 39:7,16 65:10

97:3 111:1 116:5 145:5

involvement 113:8

involving 22:22 25:4

ironic 136:23

Ironically 105:2 134:13

irrelevant 98:25 103:3

142:4

issuance 6:2

issue 14:2 25:16 47:18

70:4 72:14 93:5,10,23

99:5 114:8 123:6,8,10

123:10 145:3

issued 13:15 79:21

issues 40:14 50:20 95:4

96:2 97:4 102:5 103:10

104:1 108:24 141:23

145:4

item 7:24 20:13 83:20

items 5:11 7:17,18,19

10:8 12:25 16:25 18:3

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J

J 1:9 3:18 21:4,7,8

jail 14:19 22:22,25 23:3,6

24:8 26:3 27:7 30:6,7,8

30:11 33:9 34:4,10,20

38:7 50:14,16,17,20,25

56:13 58:10 65:2,3,5

68:16 73:16 75:4,16

81:5,18,18,20,22 82:10

82:21 83:2 90:22 91:11

92:18 95:2,24 96:10

100:20 105:4,9,11,12

105:14 109:3 112:13

112:22 113:1,9,14,19

113:19 114:3,3,6,9,10

114:12,13,19,24 116:5

117:25 118:7,16,21

119:6 122:5,11 123:1

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138:2,5,7 139:24

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jails 23:8,12,20,22,25

24:2,4,17,19,23,25

25:4,5,7,7,9,20 32:8

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103:8 105:6 118:24

121:2,6 123:6,9,10

128:17 139:24

jail's 114:9 119:8

James 2:9 67:6,6,16,18

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January 18:22

Jeff 1:13 3:2,13,17,18

4:1,10 7:24 14:18

20:11 21:5 149:7,11

Jeffrey 1:10 2:12 39:23

81:4 102:2

Jim 78:5 93:2

job 66:19,25 72:15 73:8

85:17 88:22

jobs 116:15,25,25

Joe 19:6

join 125:18 126:14

journals 19:12 106:5

JR 1:8

judgment 69:1,4,14 70:7

110:9 146:6

judgments 69:7,9

June 138:12

Juris 9:7,12,13,22 10:2

jurisdiction 140:9

jury 103:5

justice 14:18 26:1 27:6

28:18 29:4 117:15

123:8 134:16 135:25

136:6

juvenile 27:8 119:20

121:3

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K 3:21 124:21,23

keep 14:5 20:21 62:25

74:5 93:23 130:18

keeps 14:15,16

Ken 8:25

Kenneth 2:4,4 3:15

Kent 30:6,8,8

Kenton 30:7

kept 63:3

KEVIN 2:18

kind 50:18 52:23 55:3

104:2 113:1 125:7

126:17

knew 60:14 61:23 64:12

70:19 74:25 75:1 86:4

91:10,24 92:17 93:22

95:22

know 9:2 10:25 14:3,4,9

14:10,10,11 20:4 24:6

24:6,8,15,16,21 26:6

29:24 30:13,17,20,23

30:24 31:17 32:1,12,15

33:11,14,18 34:10 35:5

35:21 39:13 40:13

42:19 43:19 44:3 46:17

48:5,25 50:15,23 51:1

51:11 52:7,10 53:23

59:15 60:4,20 61:13,22

61:24 62:2,11 63:24

65:9,10 66:18 70:9,13

70:14,17,23 72:2,3,5,6

72:7,10 73:4,6,12,20

74:1,3,18 75:3 80:4

82:9 83:5,10,14 84:14

84:16,23 85:1,3,3,5,7,9

85:10,11,12 86:21,22

86:22,23 87:9,10 88:7

89:4,9,11,14 91:4,23

93:3,6 94:19 95:14

96:22,23 97:2,5,7,11

97:22 100:18,21

101:11 113:11 114:11

118:12 120:22 128:3

135:18 140:22 141:2,5

141:12,14,18,25 142:2

142:9,11,20 144:10,17

147:6

knowing 70:6 92:13

143:12

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31:15,20 32:14,17

33:20 59:17 68:10

72:18 90:23 114:18

122:20,20 123:13

132:11 137:23 140:12

142:1

knowledgeable 135:21

known 74:21 75:17

102:14

knows 60:17,18 64:23

89:3

L

lack 92:12 95:3,25

118:19 129:20 133:11

134:9 137:25 141:3,4

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lacks 148:5

lady 93:22

lag 140:22

laid 131:3

Lansing 2:15,19 30:13

large 118:4 123:9

larger 82:20,25,25 118:6

largest 27:4

law 2:4,13 9:7,9 35:3

71:11 101:16 117:6

lawful 4:2

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91:10 113:19 114:3

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lawsuit 36:2 108:25

109:2,6

lawsuits 25:4 95:3,18,25

96:12,13 97:19

lawyer 8:12,14 10:10,20

12:9 16:11,14 59:25

96:17

lawyers 9:16

lay 131:17

layperson 39:3,3 73:22

131:7

lead 131:25

leading 127:22

led 139:1

leeway 147:14,15

left 63:14 134:19

legal 101:5 134:10

legislature 31:9

Lenawee 1:8 2:7 23:2,5

26:3 36:3 50:25 65:3,4

65:22 83:6 91:9 102:11

103:18 113:18 114:2

114:12,19 118:3,5

122:5,11 124:16 125:9

125:13 126:11 136:24

137:10,14,24 141:13

142:6,7,17,20 148:1

letter 3:15 5:19 7:16

15:14 40:9 90:11,14

92:16 95:6 97:17

letters 90:14

let's 44:8 49:3 80:17 88:4

100:12 110:14 118:16

level 66:22 81:10,12

144:22

liability 99:9 101:1,10

Libriuim 44:18

Librium 43:23 45:3 48:5

61:19 111:8

licensed 26:12

licenses 107:11

Licking 24:8,10,11,12,16

Lickum 24:9

life 107:4 145:2 147:8

life-threatening 90:17

lightly 7:7

limited 94:14 138:17

line 38:7

lines 58:8

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list 3:12,14,18 5:21 11:24

12:22 20:14,15,21,24

21:4,5,8,14 22:8 24:2

listed 8:4 9:6,19 10:5,9

10:18 12:7 17:4,10,11

18:4 20:25 103:18,19

136:20

listen 8:6

listened 46:23 52:16

lists 9:15

literally 13:7

literature 121:21 123:3

litigation 66:2 108:4,4,21

little 119:8 141:9

local 23:8 120:11 136:12

location 27:11 66:25

locations 9:20

lockup 22:22

lockups 23:8,13,16,17

23:22 35:9 121:3

long 16:5 46:13 52:8

116:10 117:6 145:17

longer 85:14

look 7:18 11:18 12:15

30:19,21 38:6 39:20

42:22 49:25 55:13 57:8

57:15 58:6 60:19,21

66:10 68:9,23 77:24

129:10 140:16 144:13

looked 5:25 8:25 9:24

17:24 24:21,23,25 25:4

25:14,18,19 58:1,18,20

74:1

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56:12 57:7 64:14 68:11

72:22 81:9 94:20

129:13

looks 16:25 88:5 120:10

lost 90:25 102:23

lot 82:23,25 83:1 96:24

118:25

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loyal 120:3

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lunch 53:3

M

M 1:7,18 149:4,24

machine 58:25 142:3

magnitudes 118:12

mailing 11:12,13 12:23

mailings 11:14,16 13:1

majority 106:15 107:8

making 52:4 80:20 88:1

95:17 99:24 139:7

males 29:9

managed 81:10 123:16

131:20

management 99:19

125:8

managers 34:20

managing 74:7

mandatory 32:18,21 33:4

80:19 82:10,17,18

146:10

Manila 12:25

manual 30:19,21

manuals 19:14

March 1:16 80:15

mark 20:9 21:3,21

124:22

marked 5:16,18 11:24

12:4,6,22,22,24 14:19

14:21 15:15,17 20:12

20:24 21:6 124:21

129:11 135:4 139:16

Mary 1:11 6:9 17:18

36:16 37:22 38:13,15

38:23 39:8,22 40:13

41:7 42:25 43:9,22

44:3 45:2,8 47:13 61:3

66:3,3 92:5

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129:2,7,17,18 143:20

144:6

Master's 20:7 106:25

117:17,19

materials 3:12 5:11,25

6:1 7:10 8:15 10:8 11:6

11:20 15:25 17:1,4

79:20,22

math 108:17

matter 6:22 7:3 15:20

19:13 76:5 118:9

123:10 147:24

maximum 27:8

meal 127:11

mean 55:4 60:18 106:1

106:21 110:18 127:6

132:18 137:1

means 104:2 140:4

meant 36:11

mechanism 50:18 51:23

128:19 147:9,16

medical 6:25 27:8,17,19

27:20 29:12 34:4,9

35:23 39:24 40:25

41:20 50:19,21 51:7

74:21 75:8,9,17 81:12

84:2,4,5,7,12 85:17,18

85:19,22,24 89:16,21

89:24 90:16,22,24

94:25 95:4 96:1 97:4

98:8 99:13,14,18

100:22 103:15,16,22

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119:3,4 122:6,22 124:8

124:9,9,13,13,17

125:10,14 126:5 127:2

128:6,11 131:7,7 132:2

132:17,17 133:6,18

134:22 135:7,14 136:8

136:15 138:4,22 141:5

medically 74:7 125:25

133:24

medication 44:9,23

47:14,23 53:13 60:24

61:2,6,16,24 67:25

68:15 74:2,4 86:15

89:23 128:4

medications 43:22 48:9

61:15,19,20 62:7,23

67:9 74:2 89:17 131:20

medicine 33:23 44:4

48:2 61:13

medium 123:9

meet 16:3 33:2 66:24

79:21

meeting 16:8,11

meetings 16:17

member 34:14

membership 34:13

memo 96:11 137:12,21

memory 58:18

mental 59:9,23 119:5

132:2,17

mention 17:7

mentioned 15:5 28:18

37:22 74:13 104:13

109:11

mere 100:9

merely 106:18

messed 57:10

messing 131:1

met 16:6 73:19

MI 2:5

MICHAEL 2:13

Michigan 1:1 2:10,15,18

2:19 22:22,23,25 30:9

30:13 35:1,3,5,9 135:6

135:11,21 137:5

middle 40:23 91:2 131:2

mid-1980's 25:25

migraine 102:5

military 56:16 68:22

million 116:1

mind 26:4 39:22 97:19

minimum 103:25

minor 84:2

minutes 59:12 85:21

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minute's 75:15

misconduct 132:5

misrepresents 138:19

missed 78:7

missing 58:25 104:4

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misstates 129:21

mistake 75:5

mistakenly 101:22

mistakes 8:8

moaning 134:2

modeled 136:19

moment 71:13

Monday 29:17 127:8

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monetarily 142:13

money 141:4,9

monitor 62:25 126:16

month 80:6

Moore 1:10 2:17 6:10

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moose 120:3

moral 91:10 92:17 95:22

morning 16:7 44:5,5

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71:20 77:1,7,8,10,11

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mornings 44:10

motion 102:25

moved 46:17,19 47:2,3,5

47:6 80:15 116:20

movement 57:23

multiple 23:16

municipal 23:20

M.D 19:6

N

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NAF 113:6

nail 84:9

nails 84:1

name 4:10 5:5,7,8 66:8

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named 108:25 109:1

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names 18:2 66:11

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national 19:15,15 30:14

31:6,14,19 33:15 34:7

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122:17 145:13

nature 106:20 143:19

NCC 32:4

NCCH 24:5,15,20,24

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31:1,23 33:4 81:8,21

82:22 98:2 99:4 101:3

109:22 112:7 143:5,12

NCCHC 19:17 24:7 33:21

81:23 82:6

NCH 136:20

Neal 39:22

necessarily 72:18 103:5

110:18 144:17

need 12:7 14:2 28:21

73:22 80:21 84:7 86:3

88:22 91:4,11 92:17

93:20 117:18 118:13

125:23,25 128:6 133:5

135:7 141:6 145:24

needed 8:16,23 104:3

131:8 133:16

needs 71:23 84:5 100:21

100:21 103:23 126:11

139:2,3 140:14 145:22

negligently 100:25

negotiate 140:23

Neil 61:18,22

Neill 1:11 6:9 17:18

36:16 37:22 38:13,15

38:23 39:8 40:13,19

41:7 42:25 43:9,22

44:3 45:2,8 61:3 66:3

85:20 92:5 93:1

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neither 149:16

Nelson 2:14 3:5 104:10

104:12,14 114:1 115:4

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never 9:3 23:2,5 24:21

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33:16 35:19 37:2 52:12

55:25 65:4 71:11 74:16

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new 14:13 20:18 23:5

37:20 91:20 94:17,18

138:11 139:20 140:21

news 59:20,22

night 44:14,18 49:4,5,8

67:8 68:8 127:6 129:14

130:9,9,18

nine 14:18 116:17

Nineteen 117:4

Ninety 33:3

Ninety-nine 108:12

nine-page 14:22

nonprofit 9:22 31:5

non-mandatory 32:23

normal 72:23,23,25,25

73:10,13 88:23

Northwestern 2:5

Notary 1:19 149:5,25

note 48:17 59:9,23 93:3

113:18 130:4,14

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notebook 18:9

noted 56:15 58:5

notes 13:3,5,10 19:2,20

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notice 4:8 5:9 8:8 17:1

19:11 80:14 88:25 95:2

95:24 96:10 127:25

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noticed 105:8 109:6

134:23

notify 136:2 138:4

notifying 129:24

noting 57:18

November 39:21

number 3:21 7:25 13:24

17:11 23:22 24:19

26:12 102:3 124:19,20

140:4 141:20

numbers 57:8 84:21 85:3

85:10

numerous 25:19 42:1

nurse 18:8,15 27:21,22

54:12 69:16 76:19 77:1

77:4 97:24 102:1,14

126:25 129:2,24 147:2

nurse's 69:13 70:5

nursing 102:12,13 103:9

103:10,12 111:22

123:25 124:1 126:16

126:17,18 140:3,4

141:8,20,22,24 147:23

O

oath 6:21 78:17

object 36:18 37:4 55:19

64:1 74:23 86:25 90:1

100:2 118:19 120:17

121:21 122:14,16

123:17,18 124:4

125:17 126:12 129:19

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134:9 137:18,25

objectable 37:8

objected 127:23

objecting 37:9

objection 36:23 37:2

45:25 54:23 57:3 67:14

68:5,6 88:9 90:10

98:24 100:15 102:16

103:1,2 110:20 123:4

132:9 135:17 140:25

142:4 143:23,23

objectionable 36:25

objections 131:22

obligation 72:21 74:12

88:12 128:2,7,9 133:14

137:7 144:6

observation 46:18 56:15

58:4,8 63:5 64:20,21

64:25 71:4 72:3 86:16

86:17 124:13 130:13

132:3 133:17 134:1,3

observations 64:18

86:18 111:23 135:14

observe 39:5 62:17

72:12 74:13 75:14

124:11 125:24 132:19

observed 38:7,25 52:5,8

52:8 53:10 67:10,25

130:11

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observing 59:3 75:7

obvious 38:8 39:2 40:8

40:10 47:23 72:24

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obviously 13:14 46:4

56:3 71:22,23 83:12

108:13 118:5 124:11

127:2 138:13

occasion 11:1

occasions 107:20

occupying 130:14

occur 42:14

occurs 85:6

offer 127:20 139:18

offered 36:6 38:5 64:5

94:25 102:9

office 1:17 4:13,15,22,23

27:19,21 52:14 109:7

112:3

officer 41:16,17 54:9,12

55:12 60:13,17,18

61:18,18 67:22 68:14

68:18 69:11 70:8,21,22

71:14,15 72:16 73:3,7

74:6 88:3,4 91:15 92:2

96:20 98:23 99:5,18

105:18 125:24 126:23

130:12 133:20,24,25

134:6,16 136:5,5

officers 34:21,23 35:6

36:12 45:15 48:4,8

54:8 60:16 65:16,21

66:22,23,23 67:1 72:24

86:14 91:16 92:25

94:25 97:23 99:12

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126:5 132:19 135:25

147:25

officer's 98:7 135:13

OFFICES 2:4

officials 90:22

off-hand 30:23,24

Oh 120:10

Ohio 1:18,20 4:16 23:9

23:17,23,25 24:4,20,23

25:9 32:13 33:8 34:23

34:24,25 100:24 101:1

101:12,17 105:4,7

137:3 141:12 142:19

147:10 149:2,6,22,25

okay 10:17 11:18 12:2,21

15:5,21 28:8 29:4 32:7

32:25 34:15 35:16

37:12 38:15 45:25 46:4

52:16 54:11 55:10

57:11 70:13 76:24 78:5

87:5 89:8 91:15 93:16

93:19 96:5 105:21

110:6 117:24 122:1

125:3 145:4 146:19

148:10

old 23:2

once 13:25 15:25 42:14

45:13 50:6 139:6

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ones 6:14 8:19 24:13,18

82:25,25 91:19 119:9

one-ring 11:7

one-third 107:4

onsite 29:18

on-call 80:25

on-site 27:18 124:1,10

147:23

open 29:22

opened 25:25

operated 59:21 116:5

operating 59:13

operation 83:2 100:21

115:25 116:9 147:9

operational 116:4 124:6

141:2

Operationally 26:24

operations 14:19 34:5

36:1 82:8 85:16 105:6

105:9,11,12,20 112:11

116:13,18,20,22

118:10,12 119:19

134:13

opinion 36:7,9 37:8 38:6

38:10 39:11 40:7 53:21

55:22,24 59:10 64:6,11

68:7 74:10 75:10 76:15

102:9 126:9 131:14,16

138:15,25

opinions 6:22 7:11 19:23

36:20 39:16 66:5 76:6

76:7,8 90:6,13 109:20

121:10 122:10

opposed 135:16

opposite 67:3

order 32:25 68:22 120:3

141:19 142:3,10

ordered 29:1 48:9 68:19

orders 45:15 99:19 125:6

organization 9:22 31:5

31:18 34:13 73:5

119:18 120:2,23 121:1

122:8

organizations 34:1,7,8,9

119:12

organized 14:15,16

31:18

orientation 73:17,18,20

75:16

original 17:13

Ottawa 2:19

outlined 138:9

outside 83:12,13 130:22

140:18

overall 92:20

overnight 87:17

oversee 113:1

overview 38:11 76:17,22

115:23

o'clock 54:17 55:7,16

56:1 57:19 63:13 71:10

88:6 94:21,22 132:5

148:13

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padded 63:3 71:25 72:1

72:2,4,5,6,14,17 73:15

page 3:3 5:15 11:23 12:4

38:6 39:20 40:9,23

56:11 57:16,17,18,21

58:7 76:22 80:18 81:7

90:11 91:3 95:20,21

114:1 124:20

pages 14:18 15:14,18

20:11 21:5

paid 10:3

pain 102:6

papers 19:12

paragraph 38:7 39:22

40:23 58:7 91:3,7

95:22 113:23,25 114:1

paragraphs 90:21

parole 1:10 133:20 134:6

134:14,15 135:13,15

136:4,25 137:3

part 11:15 16:21 56:10

56:12 70:14 106:18

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A400B45

JEFF EISER MARCH 1, 2010

ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

particular 7:18 13:9

37:17,18 38:16 39:2

50:4 51:4 58:12 65:11

66:8 68:8 69:24 89:23

91:22 96:20 97:19

98:14 100:5,11 120:7

121:14 122:13,21

136:14 140:13 147:19

particularly 39:20 127:15

particulars 97:23

parties 64:18 149:17

parts 119:9

party 108:23 131:11

part-time 102:12 147:2

pass 43:3 73:11 128:18

133:16

passed 109:5 130:25

pass-on 43:1,4,11,13

49:15 67:18 128:13,18

130:5 133:4,9

pass-out 48:18

pat 67:3

paternal 120:2

patient 41:18 42:6 44:10

44:18 47:7 53:8 61:12

67:24 84:16 85:22 93:3

131:19

patients 84:17

patient's 67:12 91:17

patient-to-patient 42:7

42:13

Paul 1:9 6:10 7:24 8:3

17:18 43:21 45:17

46:21 48:12,12 49:14

51:6,24 52:16,19 54:17

54:18,20 55:15,15,16

60:24 63:14 65:6 66:3

66:4 86:5 92:8 93:1

94:1 127:5,13 128:24

129:4,15 132:7,11,24

pause 17:2

pay 10:5 137:7,8

payment 5:2

peer 106:5

pending 87:8

people 28:17 30:4 37:15

47:2 66:2 85:18 93:2

118:21,24 120:3,6

124:9 145:23

perceivable 94:13

perceived 55:22 141:7

percent 24:20 33:3 83:16

83:20 108:12,18,18

percentage 33:1 84:17

84:22 85:4 106:17

percentage-wise 107:3

perform 147:4

performance-based

120:11

performed 133:18

period 14:3 15:6 52:8

58:17 60:5 77:2 88:25

127:19 134:3 138:10

138:24

person 34:4,5 36:1 55:5

64:20 70:19 72:15 73:3

74:2 84:13 85:17,17

89:2 91:20 94:13

105:20 116:5 124:12

124:14 125:24 126:24

128:11 132:16 134:13

134:18 138:3,6 141:2

personal 1:3 14:16 31:10

31:15,20

personally 34:3

personnel 65:20 116:6

136:15

pertains 138:18

phone 7:23,23 8:3 17:10

17:17 46:23 47:1,13

52:13 53:21 62:18,23

63:12 76:18 86:8

128:24 129:21 142:14

physical 67:1,2 142:10

physician 29:15,17,19

80:23 81:3,5,11,15,18

102:13 124:17 125:14

127:9 131:21

physicians 113:1

physician's 124:25

142:10

place 16:23 54:22 67:13

102:16 110:14,16,23

119:2 143:19 144:5,21

145:16,16 147:16

149:10

placed 134:13

plaintiff 1:5 2:3 90:5

108:19 127:20

plaintiffs 108:16

plaintiff's 3:20 8:12,14

96:17

plan 45:13 68:11 86:1,11

platoon 129:14

playing 131:2

please 88:16 113:25

plenty 46:8

PM 148:13

point 28:3,9,22 41:14

46:12 66:19 86:2,12

89:6 93:25 103:6,17

107:5 114:15 134:12

135:1 139:8 140:14

policies 10:15,17 17:25

25:15 70:3 98:12

100:19 101:8,25

103:13,18,21,24 104:5

110:13,16,17,23

111:19 112:3 124:15

125:15 126:2 135:6,12

140:8 144:5

policy 3:21 51:1,3 60:22

69:22,23,25 99:8

113:20 114:4,8 124:20

125:12 135:22,22

136:10 144:11

political 116:3

population 26:14 29:25

portion 147:3

position 73:4,16 75:5,6,7

106:3 113:13 115:18

115:19 116:21,24

138:3

positions 65:20 85:18

possessed 122:6

possible 58:19 99:9

post 109:6

potential 74:19

preferable 124:11

preparation 15:7 16:21

prepare 15:22

prepared 7:13,19 8:16

14:25 17:21 56:7 66:13

79:13 139:16

Preparing 43:13

prescribed 43:24 44:9

45:6 53:13 61:3

presence 29:15 98:14,21

99:2 100:9 142:10,11

present 15:19 98:18

presentations 106:8,9

presently 117:16

pretend 44:8

prevalent 123:10

prevent 48:2

previous 20:5 67:8 95:3

95:18,25 96:12,13

97:19

previously 22:21 129:11

135:4

print 51:22

printed 50:24

prior 71:12 74:4

prison 109:5 118:17,24

119:7 135:16

prisoner 137:6

prisoners 137:4

prisons 119:20 121:3

private 31:4,17

pro 9:7,13,22 10:3 109:2

proactive 47:9,12,14,24

48:3

probably 14:8 16:2,6

32:4 103:20,25 107:3

107:25 116:17 123:8

138:3

problem 43:16 45:10,24

69:15 85:2 103:7 141:6

141:7

problems 84:2 98:8

102:3 103:7

procedure 51:15 69:23

100:10,11,13 113:20

114:4,8 139:8 143:19

144:16,18,21,25 145:3

145:8,10,15

procedures 18:1 98:2

99:8,13 100:19 101:8

103:14 110:13 111:16

112:2,6 118:14,18

126:2 142:7 143:18

145:12

process 6:24 15:3 20:7

29:1 39:7 40:15 50:24

60:21 119:7 141:15

142:12,14

processed 71:5

processes 141:13

produced 15:19 20:25

professional 106:13

107:1,11 108:2 120:5

120:25

professionalism 119:19

146:1

professionalize 121:2

professionalizing 120:7

professionals 29:12,12

119:23

program 28:11 29:2

105:16 117:17

promote 119:18

promulgated 136:13

promulgating 106:19

pronounced 28:7

proof 101:13

proper 85:14 89:18

136:7

proprietorship 5:4

protect 46:15 47:6,9

protocol 69:25 100:11

100:12 102:13 113:21

114:4 126:22 144:16

145:9,10,16

protocols 101:23 102:2

102:11 103:9,13

111:16 112:6 125:1,6

125:21 126:7 143:18

144:11 146:2

provide 126:17

provided 5:12 20:1

137:15

provider 131:7 138:11

proximity 130:13

Pro.com 9:12

public 1:19 35:22 149:5

149:25

publications 106:4 121:9

publish 121:4

published 111:25 112:5

122:8 139:2

pull 77:12

puppies 131:2

purpose 48:2 99:7 120:7

pursuant 1:14,14 4:7

149:12

pursuing 138:22

put 11:17 14:2 21:21

22:1 64:24 70:5 72:20

73:16 75:4 77:17 89:2

90:14 95:1,24 96:10

97:16 133:3,8

puts 69:13

putting 63:3,5 88:12

p.m 49:3,3,6,9 63:13,24

87:13

Q

qualified 132:22 147:24

149:5

quasi-paramilitary

100:20

Queensgate 27:9,11,12

29:21,22

question 17:14,23 33:16

36:24 37:2,6,10 44:16

45:23 46:1,2 55:11

57:5,5 58:11 63:21

64:2 67:14,20 73:11,25

87:1,6,8 88:10,16 90:1

90:1,7 91:5,6 92:24

93:7,11,13,18 96:4,5

97:5 98:13 99:24,25

100:3,4 110:21 127:22

131:5,10,23 133:7,23

135:10 137:19 138:16

141:1,24 144:1,3,9,24

148:5

questions 36:4 64:16

78:8 87:2 104:8,10,16

115:5,7,9 120:21

139:12 142:25

quiet 131:4

quietly 131:2

quote 76:18,25 77:2 90:9

130:2

quoted 80:20

quoting 130:1,17,21

R

R 2:18 149:1

raised 36:5

rate 16:16

rated 101:7

reach 119:7

reached 90:13

reactive 47:11,12,15

48:1

read 6:11,14 18:3,25

41:15 54:11 66:9,10

76:1 77:19 78:14 97:20

103:5 137:17 143:6,9

144:4 146:17 148:3

reading 18:2 27:25 28:5

28:6,7,22 51:4 61:14

92:16 95:20 113:24

real 54:16 85:2

really 52:22 86:22 91:21

103:20 107:7 109:9

118:9 119:8

reason 58:13,24 59:23

102:20 145:3

recall 8:18 11:2 12:12

24:18 31:24 38:21

43:25 44:1,7 46:22

47:4 48:15,21 49:18

50:7,7,12 51:9 58:13

62:9,20,21 66:12,17

71:3 83:18 84:21 85:4

97:15 107:15 108:10

125:5 128:23 129:3

receive 10:2 18:5,13

44:23

received 5:17,24 6:1,12

6:17 8:19 10:13 12:9

12:23 13:1 17:8 18:23

40:3 41:25 45:3 62:7,8

67:16 90:23 91:23

146:19

receives 5:2 118:24

receiving 84:16

recognition 91:12 92:11

92:18,23

recognize 48:13 91:16

92:3 94:15 124:7

recognized 92:5

recollection 63:1

recommendation 138:25

146:3,7

recommendations

145:12 146:4

recommended 32:24

33:1 82:13 101:6

record 12:3 18:14 36:19

37:12 41:14 44:23

58:16 80:9 87:22 88:23

89:8 102:18 135:5

147:19

recording 57:8 60:5

records 6:25,25 36:15

56:13 66:10 148:4

2:09-cv-10648-DML-MJH Doc # 108-2 Filed 05/10/10 Pg 47 of 51 Pg ID 2668
Page 9

A400B45

JEFF EISER MARCH 1, 2010

ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

recovery 101:12

rectify 147:22

redding 28:7

reduce 61:20

reduced 85:13

refer 81:8 99:13,18

126:25 132:2

reference 39:19 80:19

80:21 119:11 120:9,19

124:23 129:4,16,25

130:4 133:19

referenced 49:15 136:10

referencing 135:9

referred 14:23 128:19

referring 76:20 92:19

98:7 100:6 114:5,25

134:24 144:25

refers 69:3 145:17

reflect 37:13

reflected 130:15

regard 41:23 109:20

114:19 138:15

regarding 6:22 85:22

106:6,9 110:14,16,23

111:16 143:20

regardless 79:3

regular 50:23

regulation 31:12

relate 50:21 118:17

125:13 126:7 127:16

135:12

related 51:7 122:12

relates 17:25 121:18

124:16 128:25 135:7

135:13 136:14

relating 122:25 136:15

relative 36:4 89:22 99:4

118:1,14,15 121:5

125:7 126:9 132:8

133:4 135:15 139:25

149:16,18

relevance 122:9 135:12

relevant 138:17

relied 121:9

remainder 117:2

remains 144:15

remedies 140:17

remember 8:20 10:11,19

12:12,15 32:5 43:4,6

49:18 51:3,4 52:23

56:2 61:14 62:5 77:3

77:13 80:7 97:13

103:24 109:10

rendered 109:17

rendering 109:15 122:10

repeat 9:8 104:15

replace 116:14

report 3:13 5:18 6:2 7:14

7:20 8:17 10:24 13:6,9

13:14,16 14:23,25 15:7

17:3,21 18:8 19:6,9

36:6 39:10 43:11,13

48:18 49:15 50:1,15

51:12 53:14 56:8,11

58:6 66:14 69:13 70:5

70:6 71:10 75:14 79:13

79:21 80:18 87:21

90:12 111:22 113:17

114:2 121:25 133:19

139:15

reported 52:19

reporter 1:19 22:19

REPORTERS 1:23

reporting 50:18

reports 18:5,6,13 43:1

50:13,24 51:7

represent 36:2 66:1

91:16 108:3

Representative 1:4

request 8:25 10:21

113:12 129:1,17

requested 5:10 107:17

requests 101:21 102:17

require 100:18

required 70:10

requirement 33:9,10

34:22,25 82:18 126:23

requirements 51:4 70:15

requires 33:11 35:6 51:1

60:22 69:22,23 82:9

140:6 141:9

rescheduled 5:10 80:11

research 19:13

reserve 36:22 55:23

reserving 37:1

resolution 146:25

resources 80:22

respect 122:10 124:15

125:15 127:15 130:6

132:6 135:2 138:9

respects 149:12

respond 73:22 78:9

135:8 139:24

response 93:14,17

111:21 135:24 136:18

148:3

responsibilities 65:7

115:23 118:11

responsibility 39:4 71:4

72:21 73:7 88:20 108:2

116:2 136:6

responsible 60:13 80:23

81:3,11,15 115:24

restarted 58:23

result 110:18 149:19

retained 3:18 21:6,9 90:3

90:5

retire 115:19

retired 27:15 106:22

107:6 113:11 115:12

115:15,15,16 116:14

116:23

retirement 9:24 106:21

review 5:12 7:10 15:6

17:5 36:15 39:11 40:3

78:17 79:15,19 96:15

106:5 127:4 146:15

147:18

reviewed 3:12 6:15

15:25 20:19 22:21 30:5

54:3,19 70:3 79:23

87:15 91:19 103:18

133:17 148:8

reviewing 5:23 6:25 13:4

35:4 76:5 107:14

RE-EXAMINATION

139:13 143:1 146:23

Re-notice 1:15

Richardson 1:8 2:7 6:9

91:10 92:17 113:19

114:3

right 4:22 5:24 6:24

13:11 15:13 19:11

22:14 25:8 27:13,23

31:4,7,12,22 41:5,15

41:20 42:9,25 43:9

44:8 45:1,12 47:1,13

47:22 49:14 52:12 53:7

53:15 55:24 56:16,19

57:13 59:13,20 60:11

61:9,17 63:11 64:13

65:6 66:1 67:5 68:25

70:16 71:15 72:7 75:13

75:22 76:3,4,6,10,16

77:25 78:23 79:4 83:15

84:6,14 86:13 90:7

92:11,24 94:19 95:10

97:6 98:2,6 100:10,10

101:17 102:25 104:19

104:22 109:11,19

110:12 111:3,24

112:14 114:11 115:3

120:18 136:21 139:4

139:11 141:16 142:1

143:10,15 144:15

145:8

Rights 7:5 60:12 99:12

99:21

ring 11:15,19,19,25

12:18

rise 101:1 143:13 144:19

144:22

risk 61:21 74:19 85:13

85:15 125:7

risks 61:10 91:12 92:19

92:23

RN 29:13

Road 27:25 28:5,6

role 66:6 70:17 88:12

124:16 126:18 132:25

room 130:13

routine 16:10

routinely 65:1

rule 78:6

rules 4:8 35:8,11 78:7

run 116:9

runs 112:13

S

safe 62:25 63:4 128:7

safely 81:10

safety 41:1 50:20 132:18

satisfy 144:6

save 14:12,13

saw 19:8 38:18 39:18

40:19 47:15,17 48:1,16

50:5 51:25 53:24 55:25

74:12 75:14 86:22 88:3

88:4,8 94:14,21 134:19

136:8

saying 18:12 26:6 39:7

43:10 50:9 53:24 59:7

110:7 139:1

says 56:17 58:9 95:1,23

scheduled 80:4,10

schedules 49:12

school 106:24 107:2

science 109:8 117:13

screen 71:19

screened 119:3

se 109:2

second 9:11 27:9 40:9

48:20,21 80:20 86:19

86:21 89:25 94:2

Secondly 131:13

section 94:14

security 27:8 29:11

35:17 50:20 105:6

116:6,22

security-level 119:2

see 7:25 8:16 34:6 38:13

41:2 44:17 47:16 49:12

50:1 57:13,19 68:16

69:14 70:6 71:19 78:11

78:12 81:1 87:11 90:18

91:12 99:25 129:18

130:23 136:1 140:17

144:13 148:8

seeing 51:9

seeks 134:10

seen 5:20 78:4 103:8

129:2,17 132:16 148:4

sees 47:11 73:9 134:16

seizure 84:15,18 102:7

seizures 61:10,21

selected 9:25

self 63:4

sense 13:17

sent 8:12,13 10:10,13,15

11:4,20 12:18

sentence 56:12 81:9

90:20 91:13 95:1,23

separately 17:8

September 4:18 149:25

sergeant 51:12 65:6 67:6

67:22 73:19

sergeants 36:12 48:8

65:9,24

serious 40:25 74:21,21

75:17 84:5,6,12 85:12

85:14 90:23,23 91:12

92:3,18,23 99:13

103:22

seriously 7:1

seriousness 72:19

served 48:18,20

service 9:4 113:4 116:7

services 9:24 68:21

83:12 113:5 122:11

137:13

set 6:21 17:13 81:23 82:7

122:17 136:11 140:21

149:13,21

sets 45:13

setting 74:6 123:1 124:3

settled 95:3,11,13,18,25

96:13 108:12

setup 102:11 137:4

seven 5:10 91:16

severe 52:21

Sgt 1:9,9 39:22 40:19

43:6 46:14 49:1 53:20

61:22,22 62:6,12 67:11

76:18 85:20 96:25

133:1

share 132:20 134:17,20

sharing 53:9 60:22

Shaun 112:16

Sheriff 1:8 91:9 112:13

113:13,19 114:3,20

116:4 138:4 139:9

141:18 147:21

Sheriff's 112:3 137:22

she'd 71:11

shift 29:13 43:2,11,15

48:18,20 49:17,21 50:2

55:15 60:19 127:7,14

127:15 128:15 132:25

133:2

shifts 49:16

shocked 102:10

show 20:23 56:10 64:9

76:16 124:18,22

128:21 135:3

showed 54:5

showing 59:8 143:16

shows 63:15

sic 12:9 18:8 24:5 32:4

37:7,18 68:21 75:1

88:22 94:14 102:25

109:7 125:23 128:8

sick 29:22

side 105:6

SIEMION 2:9

signature 149:16

significance 133:8

significant 85:9,11

102:14

signing 141:19

signs 38:8 40:8,8,10

47:23

simple 46:2 102:19

simply 131:1

sinus 102:6

sir 4:12 5:6 7:15 8:1,5

15:1,20 17:16 19:3,10

19:22 21:11 22:23

30:10,12 33:10 57:14

58:3 66:17 67:20 77:16

78:20 80:17 81:2,17

83:8,14 87:9 89:24

90:11,19 91:18 95:21

96:8 97:17,25 104:9,21

107:13 109:21 111:9

112:9 119:14 139:19

140:2 142:8 146:21

sit 35:4 66:13

site 9:7

situation 37:16,17 63:17

63:20 68:24 133:13

136:3,4 147:7,12

situations 46:5 136:16

six 14:8 29:8

Sixty 108:17

six-week 15:6

size 26:3 27:1 116:9

118:2,9

sizes 123:11

skelation 102:24

skipping 80:24

small 11:14,16 123:9

smaller 82:24 83:2

Smith 1:3,3,4 21:1 36:9

38:8 39:25 90:15,21

122:13 127:9,16 129:1

129:18 130:6,14,16

133:5,21 134:7

Smith's 51:8 127:18

130:10 132:8

sole 5:3

2:09-cv-10648-DML-MJH Doc # 108-2 Filed 05/10/10 Pg 48 of 51 Pg ID 2669
Page 10

A400B45

JEFF EISER MARCH 1, 2010

ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. (800) 288-3376

solutions 140:19

solve 142:14

somebody 64:25 72:20

73:11 75:5,7 77:5 95:8

126:16 132:16 134:21

someone's 99:12

somewhat 144:16

sophisticated 82:21

sorry 17:11,12 18:16

22:11 28:4 32:10 35:17

42:20 47:20 49:7 66:4

75:10 90:25 110:15

116:19 117:22 130:24

138:13

sounds 9:13

source 23:21

SOUTHERN 1:2

Southfield 2:5,10

space 87:2

speak 62:1

SPECIALLY 2:14

specific 43:23 46:6,8

98:13 139:5

specifically 10:20 37:22

39:15 43:6 62:10 66:15

specifics 139:1

spectrum 42:10

spell 109:4 112:17,18

spelled 28:6

spend 15:21 29:19

spent 26:22 107:8

spoken 67:8

spring 117:19

Square 2:10

SS 149:2

staff 36:7,11 37:17 38:7

38:20 39:16,18 46:17

46:19,20 51:13 53:19

53:19 58:10 59:6 65:19

65:19,19,20 91:11,25

92:18,23 98:12 100:20

100:21,22 101:9

103:15,15 104:2

111:19,20,22,25 116:1

124:2,7 125:1,21 126:5

126:16,17,18,25

staffed 29:10,11

staffing 49:13 139:25

140:1

stamp 57:17

stand 80:16

standard 80:19,19 81:8

98:9,11,18,21 99:2,3,4

99:7,20 101:13,15,16

122:21 135:23 146:8,9

standards 19:15 32:18

32:20,22 33:1,22 34:6

34:17,18,19 81:22,23

81:24 82:12 98:7 100:6

100:18,25 101:2,3,6

102:20,21 106:19

109:22,24 112:6

119:22,24 120:11,20

121:5,17,18 122:4,8,18

122:21,25 136:11,20

136:20 145:13 146:5

standing 125:6

star 21:22

stars 22:1

start 107:14,17

started 15:4 53:18 56:11

57:18 106:23 107:16

116:12 119:18

starting 91:7

starts 55:7 90:20

state 1:20 23:9 24:20

31:13 32:13 33:8,11

34:22 35:5,9 39:21

82:9,11,18 100:24

101:12,19 105:3 109:5

118:16 134:4 137:2,3,4

137:5,6,6 149:2,6,25

stated 36:5 39:16 76:19

77:1 111:6 114:2 128:9

136:5 146:4,9

statement 12:11 15:9

38:12 39:14 62:20,21

95:5,7,17 99:24 100:4

statements 62:15 139:7

states 1:1 32:16 33:14

33:18,19,19 135:22

stating 133:11

stationed 130:12

statistics 23:21

status 136:24

statute 31:9

stay 68:22 115:16

Ste 2:5

Steenrod 6:9 114:15

115:1 135:5 137:11,21

138:10 139:1 146:16

Steenrod's 96:11

step 63:7,8 140:14,18

STEPHENSON 2:13

Stickney 1:11 2:12 7:24

17:18,19 37:25 39:23

41:7 43:24 45:3 46:15

46:24 52:1,4,17 60:24

62:17,22 76:19,25

78:13 81:4,19 90:4

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stopped 58:23

stranger 73:25

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strike 18:6 110:15 127:3

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structure 114:10

student 107:1,7

stuff 109:10

subdivisions 10:8

subject 102:24 108:20

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submitted 8:20 149:15

subpoena 15:12

subsequent 11:13 18:23

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substance 28:14 128:23

substantial 83:19

suddenly 42:4

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sued 108:21

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summarize 90:12

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tape 8:6

tape-recording 8:3

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television 109:9

tell 14:10 22:17 25:17

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testifying 106:15 111:7

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transcript 7:23 17:9,17

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transcripts 17:7 79:25

transfer 28:20

transferred 80:24 134:5

transient 42:11

transport 83:12 126:24

transported 124:12

treat 132:19

treated 53:19 84:19

119:4

treaters 98:8

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treating 111:11

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300 26:8 118:6

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