UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA

_________________

United States of America,

Plaintiff,

vs.

Michael Lacey, et al.,

Defendants.

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No. 2:18-cr-00422-DJH

Phoenix, Arizona

October 17, 2023

1:15 p.m.

BEFORE: THE HONORABLE DIANE J. HUMETEWA, JUDGE

REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

JURY TRIAL - DAY 19

(P.M. SESSION)

Official Court Reporter:

Cathy J. Taylor, RMR, CRR, CRC

Sandra Day O'Connor U.S. Courthouse, Suite 312

401 West Washington Street, Spc 31

Phoenix, Arizona 85003-2151

(602) 322-7249

Proceedings Reported by Stenographic Court Reporter

Transcript Prepared by Computer-Aided Transcription

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

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A P P E A R A N C E S

For the Government:

UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE

By: Mr. Kevin M. Rapp, Esq.

Mr. Andrew C. Stone, Esq.

Mr. Peter Shawn Kozinets, Esq.

Ms. Margaret Wu Perlmeter, Esq.

Mr. Daniel G. Boyle, Esq.

40 North Central Avenue, Suite 1800

Phoenix, Arizona 85004-4408

kevin.rapp@usdoj.gov

peter.kozinets@usdoj.gov

andrew.stone@usdoj.gov

margaret.perlmeter@usdoj.gov

- and -

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

By: Mr. Austin Berry, Esq.

1301 New York Avenue NW, 11th Floor

Washington, DC 20005

austin.berry2@usdoj.gov

For the Defendant Michael Lacey:

LIPTSITZ GREEN SCIME CAMBRIA, LLP

By: Mr. Paul J. Cambria, Esq.

42 Delaware Avenue, Suite 120

Buffalo, New York 14202

pcambria@lglaw.com

For the Defendant Scott Spear:

KESSLER LAW OFFICE

By: Mr. Eric Walter Kessler, Esq.

6720 North Scottsdale Road, Suite 210

Scottsdale, Arizona 85253

eric.kesslerlaw@gmail.com

- and -

FEDER LAW OFFICE, PA

By: Mr. Bruce S. Feder, Esq.

2930 East Camelback Road, Suite 160

Phoenix, Arizona 85016

bf@federlawpa.com

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A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd)

For the Defendant John Brunst:

BIRD MARELLA BOXER WOLPERT NESSIM DROOKS

By: Mr. Gopi K. Panchapakesan, Esq.

Mr. Gary S. Lincenberg, Esq.

Mr. Ariel A. Neuman, Esq.

1875 Century Park E, Suite 2300

Los Angeles, California 90067

gpanchapakesan@birdmarella.com

glincenberg@birdmarella.com

aneuman@birdmarella.com

For the Defendant Andrew Padilla:

DAVID EISENBERG, PLC

By: Mr. David S. Eisenberg, Esq.

3550 North Central Avenue, Suite 1155

Phoenix, Arizona 85012

david@deisenbergplc.com

For the Defendant Joye Vaught:

JOY BERTRAND, ESQ, LLC

By: Ms. Joy Malby Bertrand, Esq

P.O. Box 2734

Scottsdale, Arizona 85252-2734

Joy@joybertrandlaw.com

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

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I N D E X

SUMMARY OF COURT PROCEEDINGS: PAGE

Proceedings Outside the Presence of the Jury 5

Proceedings Outside the Presence of the Jury 12

Proceedings Outside the Presence of the Jury 16

Motion for Mistrial 17

Proceedings Outside the Presence of the Jury 141

WITNESSES FOR THE GOVERNMENT: PAGE

Astrid Cervantes

Direct Examination by Ms. Perlmeter 29

Cross-Examination by Mr. Eisenberg 49

Andrea Benson

Direct Examination by Ms. Perlmeter 54

Cross-Examination by Mr. Eisenberg 71

Cross-Examination by Mr. Cambria 77

Cross-Examination by Mr. Feder 79

Arshana Sanders-Willis

Direct Examination by Mr. Berry 89

Derek Fritze

Direct Examination by Mr. Berry 102

Cross-Examination by Mr. Kessler 132

EXHIBITS

NO. DESCRIPTION REC'D

1606 Email from Officer Fritze to Backpage

"Post ID 80670844", 07/16/2012,

DOJ-BP-0000162047

119

1606a Email from Officer Fritze to Backpage

"Post ID 5656110", 07/16/2012,

DOJ-BP-0000164992

119

1606b Email from Officer Fritze to Backpage

"Post ID 7756616", 07/16/2012,

DOJ-BP-0000164226

119

1606c Email from Officer Fritze to Backpage

"Post ID 804357", 07/16/2012,

DOJ-BP-0000166089

119

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P R O C E E D I N G S

(Proceedings reconvene at 1:15 p.m.)

(Jury not present at 1:15 p.m.)

THE COURT: All right. Please be seated.

Before -- before we bring any witness in, it has come

to my attention that -- and the record will reflect counsel are

only present. No witness; no jurors.

It has come to my attention that upon entering the

building, one of our jurors -- and Liliana will retrieve the

jurors -- was greeted by a CSO. And the CSO essentially

recognized him as one of the Lacey jurors, stated something to

the effect of, oh, so you're in it for the long haul, and then

proceeded to ask him the question, didn't one of the defendants

commit suicide?

And the juror essentially just extracted him away --

himself away from the conversation.

And as that juror reported this incident to Liliana,

he did so in front of two other jurors, who clearly heard the

statement.

So what I intend to do is call the juror in

individually, ask him about the incident. And I don't

recall -- my memory is not fresh on the particular jurors that

have been seated that may or may not have had prior knowledge.

I do remember Mr. Cambria making some statement in his

opening as to, we all know what happened to Mr. Larkin. And I

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admonished him on that.

So I think that's the appropriate procedure.

I have relayed my concern to the acting U.S. Marshal

to admonish the CSOs not to engage in that type of that sort of

conversation or communication going forward.

And so does the government wish to be heard?

MS. PERLMETER: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Anyone from the defense?

MR. CAMBRIA: I don't remember making that statement,

Your Honor, in the opening.

THE COURT: I remember it clearly.

MR. FEDER: What's a CSO?

THE COURT: Court security officer.

MS. BERTRAND: The blue coats.

THE COURT: The individuals who guard the entry of the

courthouse.

All right. So we will bring in the first juror who

had the interaction.

MR. BERRY: Your Honor, we -- I'd ask Liliana if we

could have a couple minutes before the jury comes in to discuss

some issues. Obviously this is more important right now. I

would like to take something up before we bring the whole panel

back in to start the afternoon. It relates to one witness

that's coming. I don't know if you want to hear it now or

later.

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THE COURT: Let's hear it later.

MR. BERRY: That's fine.

MR. KESSLER: Your Honor, I have the same issue, that

I asked Liliana if I could make a point. It has to do with

upcoming witnesses. And so whenever Your Honor is able to hear

that.

MR. CAMBRIA: And my recollection, Your Honor, I said

he was deceased. I don't remember anything else. If there's

something specific, I'd like to know what it is, please.

THE COURT: I'll give you your opening transcript.

How's that?

MR. CAMBRIA: Thank you.

MR. FEDER: Judge, could -- could we address or --

THE COURT: One thing at a time. Let's -- let's

concentrate on one thing at time, please.

MR. FEDER: Okay.

(Juror Number 10 joins the proceedings.)

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Let me grab a mic for him.

THE COURT: Okay.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Can you just speak into this

one? Let me go turn it on. Let me see, 2, the number 2.

Oh, it's on. It's on.

JURY PANEL MEMBER: It's on.

THE COURT: I have my reading glasses on. I can't

tell your juror number. I'm sorry.

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JURY PANEL MEMBER: Oh, yeah. I'm Juror Number 10.

THE COURT: Juror Number 10. Okay.

Thank you, Juror Number 10.

I called you in because I was told that you had a -- a

brief interaction, one of -- with one of our court security

officers today --

JURY PANEL MEMBER: Right.

THE COURT: -- who acknowledged that you were serving

as a juror in this trial.

JURY PANEL MEMBER: Right.

THE COURT: And what time of the day was this? Do you

recall?

JURY PANEL MEMBER: It was when I got here, so it was

probably --

THE COURT: Can you use the microphone.

JURY PANEL MEMBER: -- 8:35 or so when I got here.

THE COURT: 8:35.

JURY PANEL MEMBER: Uh-huh.

THE COURT: Okay. And can you just briefly describe

for us what that exchange -- what -- what occurred in that

exchange.

JURY PANEL MEMBER: Okay. Yeah, usually when I come

in, they say hi or -- because they've seen us so much. And he

said: Welcome back. And he said: Yeah, you're on the Lacey

case.

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And I said: Yes.

And he said: Oh, didn't one of the owners kill

himself?

And I said: Well, I don't know.

And I didn't know why he was even asking me questions,

so -- and that was really it. And I walked off.

THE COURT: All right. Juror Number 10, prior to

being asked that question, had you had any prior knowledge

about any of that?

JURY PANEL MEMBER: No. I -- I haven't.

THE COURT: And now, having been asked the question,

or having been suggested that, has that changed your ability in

any way to remain a fair and impartial juror?

JURY PANEL MEMBER: No. Not at all.

THE COURT: All right. Is there anything from the

government?

MS. PERLMETER: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Anything from defense?

Mr. --

MR. LINCENBERG: Lincenberg.

THE COURT: -- Lincenberg, do you --

MR. LINCENBERG: Your Honor, maybe I missed it. I

think there was something you conveyed to us that you had --

that you didn't explore with Juror Number 10. I don't know if

the Court wanted to do that. In terms of others.

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THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Huh?

THE COURT: Well -- oh, yes.

Just to be clear, Juror Number 10, when you conveyed

this conversation to my courtroom deputy, were there other

jurors present?

JURY PANEL MEMBER: There was. And I probably

shouldn't have -- I should have said it just to Elizabeth, but,

yeah.

THE COURT: And do you recall the juror numbers who

were present?

JURY PANEL MEMBER: I --

THE COURT: If not, it's okay.

JURY PANEL MEMBER: I don't know the numbers. I think

we know which ones.

THE COURT: Yeah. I think Liliana can provide that to

me.

JURY PANEL MEMBER: Yeah.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Lincenberg, anything else?

MR. CAMBRIA: Yeah.

THE COURT: I'm sorry?

MR. CAMBRIA: I just wondered what was said.

THE COURT: What --

MR. CAMBRIA: If -- with the other jurors.

THE COURT: You want him to reiterate what the court

security officer said? He just --

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MR. CAMBRIA: No, no, no, no. I just didn't know

whether there was a conversation other than the court security

officer in the presence of the jurors.

THE COURT: No. My understanding is -- and you can

correct me if I'm wrong, Juror Number 10 -- you essentially

just told Liliana what the court security officer said to you

this morning; is that correct?

JURY PANEL MEMBER: Correct.

THE COURT: All right.

All right. Anything from you, Ms. Bertrand? I lost

you. I didn't see you back there.

MS. BERTRAND: I can't see from my seat, so I -- I

moved. Thank you.

No. Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Cambria?

MR. CAMBRIA: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Eisenberg?

MR. EISENBERG: No, Your Honor. Thank you.

THE COURT: Mr. Feder?

MR. FEDER: No, thanks.

THE COURT: All right. Thank you.

You may return. And, again, just don't discuss

anything that we've talked about so far. And Liliana will take

you back into the jury room.

And you can retrieve one of the two individuals that

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was present.

Thank you.

(Juror Number 10 leaves the proceedings.)

(Jury not present at 1:25 p.m.)

MR. LINCENBERG: Your Honor, outside of the jurors --

and you'd like, I can wait --

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. LINCENBERG: I -- I think some type of inquiry

maybe should be made of all of the jurors, even if it's in

muted questions, because the fact that one juror came forward

and talked --

THE COURT: Stop.

(Juror Number 6 joins the proceedings.)

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Use this microphone to speak.

THE COURT: Okay. Good afternoon.

I'm just going to ask you to hold the microphone to

your -- close to your mouth --

JURY PANEL MEMBER: Okay.

THE COURT: -- and identify yourself. You are juror

number?

JURY PANEL MEMBER: 6.

THE COURT: And, Juror Number 6, I have been informed

that you were present when Juror Number 10 conveyed to you --

or, I'm sorry -- conveyed to my courtroom deputy in front of

you a conversation that took place between a court security

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officer and Juror Number 10; is that correct?

JURY PANEL MEMBER: Vaguely, yeah.

THE COURT: And do you recall what it is that you

heard?

JURY PANEL MEMBER: That one of the security guards

was mentioning something about one of the people from this

case.

THE COURT: And do you recall what it was that he said

to Juror Number 10?

JURY PANEL MEMBER: I didn't really hear all of it. I

just heard that he was saying something about Mr. Larkin, and

didn't he die or kill himself?

THE COURT: All right. And is that information that

you had previously had prior to being selected as a juror here?

JURY PANEL MEMBER: Like, did I already know that?

THE COURT: Yes.

JURY PANEL MEMBER: No.

THE COURT: And now, having heard that statement, has

that any -- in any way affected your ability to be fair or

impartial going forward?

JURY PANEL MEMBER: No.

THE COURT: And at this point, Juror Number 6, have

you conveyed or shared that conversation with anyone else in

the jury?

JURY PANEL MEMBER: No.

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THE COURT: All right. Is there anything from the

government?

MS. PERLMETER: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Anything from the defense?

I'll go down with Mr. Cambria first.

MR. CAMBRIA: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Ms. Bertrand?

MS. BERTRAND: No, thank you.

THE COURT: Mr. Lincenberg?

MR. LINCENBERG: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Feder?

MR. FEDER: No, thank you.

THE COURT: Mr. Eisenberg?

MR. EISENBERG: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. You may return to the jury

room. And just do not communicate anything that we've

discussed so far.

Thank you.

(Juror Number 6 leaves the proceedings.)

(Juror Number 15 joins the proceedings.)

THE COURT: All right. And would you identify

yourself by your juror number.

JURY PANEL MEMBER: Number 15.

THE COURT: Juror Number 15, it has come to my

attention that you were present when Juror Number 10 conveyed

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some communication that -- an exchange he had with one of the

court security officers this morning and that you were present

when he was relaying this information to my courtroom deputy;

is that correct?

JURY PANEL MEMBER: That's correct.

THE COURT: And, to the best of your recollection,

what is it that you recall Juror Number 10 telling my courtroom

deputy?

JURY PANEL MEMBER: He inquired the -- the deputy --

the security officer asked him if we were on the long case or

something, mentioned the case by one of the names, and then

asked something about one of the prior owners or something.

THE COURT: And do you recall what it is that he said

about the prior owner?

JURY PANEL MEMBER: That the security guard said that

he thought he was deceased now or something.

THE COURT: Okay. And prior to overhearing this

conversation between Juror Number 10 and my courtroom deputy,

had you had any previous knowledge related to that statement

about the prior owner?

JURY PANEL MEMBER: No.

THE COURT: And now, having heard such a statement,

would that in any way change your ability to be fair and

impartial to the parties in this case?

JURY PANEL MEMBER: No. It has no bearing to me.

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THE COURT: All right. Thank you.

Is there anything from the government?

MS. PERLMETER: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Anything from you, Mr. Cambria?

MR. CAMBRIA: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Ms. Bertrand?

MS. BERTRAND: No, thank you.

THE COURT: Mr. Lincenberg?

MR. LINCENBERG: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Eisenberg?

MR. EISENBERG: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Feder?

MR. FEDER: No, thanks.

THE COURT: All right. Thank you.

And when you return to the jury room, please don't

discuss any matters that we've covered so far and just wait

patiently until you're called in.

JURY PANEL MEMBER: Thank you.

THE COURT: Thank you.

(Juror Number 15 leaves the proceedings.)

THE COURT: Now, there's a suggestion that all of the

jurors be polled in this fashion, but to do so would

essentially open the door to suggest the information that some

of them may not have. And so I think that's problematic.

And my understanding is that those were the only two

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individuals that were present when the statement was reiterated

to my courtroom deputy. So I don't necessarily feel the need

or find the necessity to go any further. I don't want to bring

new information to jurors that may not have had any such

information at present.

And so does the government wish to be heard?

MS. PERLMETER: No, Your Honor. We agree with the

Court.

THE COURT: Anyone from the defense?

MR. LINCENBERG: Well, Your Honor, first, we would

move for a mistrial, not simply -- not really solely based on

what these jurors are saying, but at the Court's lack of

follow-up on this issue. And it really compounds what we felt

was insufficient opportunity to explore this during voir dire.

I think one other --

THE COURT: Explore this, meaning what?

MR. LINCENBERG: Meaning the effect of publicity and

the like.

Now, the -- the other thing the Court could do would

be to question the chief security officer -- or the courtroom

security officer as to whether he has had conversations with

other jurors, made comments to other jurors in a similar vein.

THE COURT: Well, number 1, I'm going to --

Oh, and I saw Mr. Cambria reaching for the microphone.

Did you wish to say something, Mr. Cambria?

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MR. CAMBRIA: The only thing I was going to say,

Your Honor, is I assume that the security officers will be told

not to converse with the jurors.

THE COURT: Well, that was -- you can be assured that

that was the very first thing I did. And going forward, they

will be admonished by their employer.

Now, with regard to the motion to dismiss based on the

Court's, I guess what's characterized by Mr. Lincenberg as not

going into voir dire in this subject area, I believe the record

will show that the Court did go through it. I also believe

that the record will show that oftentimes defense counsel were

raising the issue repeatedly, and I, therefore, carefully went

into the area, not seeking to taint any potential jurors

because of those recent events.

And so, further, I understand Mr. Lincenberg's motion

to encompass the fact that the Court will not one by one call

jurors in to somehow ask them a question without revealing to

them that one of the owners is deceased or committed suicide.

To do that would essentially undercut what you wish to prevent

in the first instance.

So for that reason, I am also denying the motion to

dismiss.

MR. LINCENBERG: And, Your Honor --

THE COURT: There was a --

MR. LINCENBERG: Excuse me.

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THE COURT: There was an issue that the government

wished to receive -- I made my ruling, Mr. Lincenberg. Do you

have --

MR. LINCENBERG: It's not about the ruling.

Your Honor, I was just going to ask, you have a light

in front of you that is sort of tilted at us now I think for

the first time, and it's the way it's tilted, it's now kind of

causing a glare.

THE COURT: It's illuminating me as though I'm on

high. Didn't you -- didn't you get that?

MR. LINCENBERG: Yes.

THE COURT: Is it distracting still?

MR. LINCENBERG: Now it's good. Thank you,

Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. LINCENBERG: It just hasn't been that way all

trial. And thank you.

THE COURT: Okay. First, Mr. Stone, then Mr. Kessler,

and then somebody else wanted to speak to me.

I'm sorry. Was it you, Mr. Feder, or Mr. Kessler?

MR. FEDER: It was -- it was me. There may be others

but --

THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Stone?

MR. BERRY: I appreciate you thinking I'm as dashing

as Mr. Stone.

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THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: It's Mr. Berry.

THE COURT: I'm sorry. Mr. Berry. I'm sorry. I'm

sorry.

MR. BERRY: That's okay.

THE COURT: Can you turn -- do we have the microphone

on? Okay. Thank you.

MR. BERRY: Yes, Your Honor.

What I wanted to mention is, we have the witness

Arshana Sanders coming up in a little bit, and before we put

her on, so we didn't have to take a break right before that, I

just wanted to make the Court aware of -- of who she is and

what the sort of a proffer of her testimony's going to be,

because I foresee there being some objections and some concerns

that I want the Court to be aware that I'm going to try to

navigate around.

So Ms. Sanders is not someone who was posted on

Backpage, but her sister was. Her sister's name is Cynthia

Worthy. Her sister responded to a Backpage ad in August of

2015 and was ultimately murdered by the person who responded to

that ad.

Obviously I am not going to get into that. And I'm

going to try to steer around where she is, why she's not here,

what happened when she responded to the ad, any of that. But

obviously, because this is a little bit different witness than

what we've been putting on, I want the Court to be aware that

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I'm putting on someone who wasn't herself posted. But she has

personal knowledge of her sister's activity on Backpage;

personally witnessed postings, personally witnessed her going

to CVS and purchasing things to go along with her dates, and

personally sat outside a couple of dates for a period of time

when her sister went in.

Obviously she can't put her in the room, can't be in

the room and say what actually transpired, but I think her

testimony is sufficiently based on her personal knowledge and

observations and does not include hearsay, that she can

adequately testify about what her sister was doing on Backpage.

And we'll also identify her sister's ad.

That's the limited purpose for which I intend to put

her on the stand, and I just wanted the -- Your Honor to be

aware of that and the defense.

I have told -- I've counseled Ms. Sanders that we're

going to try to steer around what happened to her sister and

not talk about that. But I've also told her that if the

defense asks you a question, where's your sister, what happened

to her, that she has to answer truthfully.

And so I just want the Court to be aware of that. I

want the defense to be aware of that. I don't want them

walking into a buzz saw. I'm definitely going to try to steer

around that, and I just wanted the Court to be aware of that.

THE COURT: All right. So long as you can establish

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personal knowledge of her awareness of the ad, what she saw,

what she did. Nothing related to hearsay --

MR. BERRY: That's right.

THE COURT: -- will come in through her. And just

adhere to the Court's prior orders with regard to any other

affiliated crimes --

MR. BERRY: That's right.

THE COURT: -- by third parties, and we should be

fine.

MR. BERRY: That's the plan, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Feder?

MR. FEDER: That's actually what I wanted to talk to

the Court about.

This is cumulative. It's obviously extraordinarily

concerning that something will come out that will violate 401

and 403. The idea that they've brought this woman down from

Detroit to basically talk about hearsay and observations of an

alleged victim that, as Mr. Berry just said, she didn't really

see anything happen.

Their big relevance in regard to the 302 is that she

observed her -- her sister buy a credit card. And I just don't

see the point of doing this at the risk of an obvious mistrial

if one word is mentioned by this woman.

THE COURT: Well --

MR. FEDER: I mean, we've had how many witnesses now

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that have talked about this same stuff, except they're actually

first-party witnesses to what happened. And now it's another

one?

Just -- it just seems an un- -- an unnecessary risk.

It's 403 -- you know, definitely potential 403 that I could

promise you if one word comes out of her lips that -- that is

anything close to that something happened to her sister -- and

it's going to be obvious that she's here talking about her

sister, who is not here. What do you think that's going to

infer to the jury?

So I would ask the Court to preclude her as a risk

that you should not take and it's cumulative.

THE COURT: Well, with respect to the cumulative

argument, I'll remind the parties that there are 51 counts

related to individual ads. And so I don't find it to be

cumulative. Now, it would be cumulative if the next witness

starts referring to ads that other of these witnesses have

testified about. And so it's not cumulative, in my view.

There is the potential for the prejudicial statement

to come out that the sister is deceased, or what have you, but

all counsel have the obligation now, knowing that there's the

potential for that prejudice, not to probe the witness on that

area.

And so she's only offered for the narrow purpose of

identifying her sister's ad, watching what her sister's acts

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were with regard to paying for the ad, receiving cards or

whatnot to pay for those ads. I think Mr. Berry said something

about watching her meet a person outside of a hotel room or

something of that nature.

And if it relates to the ad that is charged, then it

is relevant. And so that's how we will proceed with that

witness.

Mr. Feder?

I'm sorry. Mr. Kessler?

MR. KESSLER: I wasn't going to talk about this, but

I -- I have to ask the government whether or not this is one

one of the charged ads. I don't believe it is, but I could be

wrong.

Is it?

MR. BERRY: Victim 16, Count 24.

MR. KESSLER: Okay.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. KESSLER: I stand corrected.

Your Honor, just following up on Mr. Lincenberg's

concerns about sort of gratuitous and unnecessary evidence of

underaged prostitution, you know, what -- what's gone, you

know, before us is -- is done, but with any upcoming witnesses

that have been posters or the sister of a poster, contrary to

what Your Honor said, you said we can't do anything about it,

about the evidence of the age because they were, in fact, the

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age that they were when they advertised.

But we can. We can stop asking, for example, the

witness their age now, what their current age is. It's

unnecessary. It's not relevant. But it does allow the jury to

do the math and determine that this person was underage.

Secondly, we can refrain from questions that are

clearly designed to draw out the fact that they were underage.

For example, did you rent the hotel room? Well, if she's

underage, she can't, and she's going to tell us that.

That's not relevant to anything, other than that she

was underaged. So --

THE COURT: No, I -- you know, let me just stop you

there. I've heard the arguments before, as has the prior

Court. There was a ruling on this with regard to -- and it's

the same set of circumstances that necessarily child

prostitution is part of this as well and that they're clearly

advertisements where people were underage, as here. And so it

is simply part of the case.

Now, we can't talk about child trafficking or things

of that nature, to the extent that the Court has already

admonished the government. But it is relevant in terms of the

time that the ad was posed, the allegations in the indictment.

And so if it just so happens to be that one of these

individuals who posted the ad was 17 or 16 at the time, those

are facts. And we are to put the facts before the jury so that

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they can find for themselves what is or is not relevant to the

charges in the indictment.

And so we're going to go forward in the manner in

which I already -- --

MR. KESSLER: Judge --

THE COURT: -- instructed the parties.

And let's move on to whatever it was you originally

were going to talk about.

MR. KESSLER: Well, that's -- that's what I was going

to talk about.

THE COURT: Okay. So then we'll --

MR. KESSLER: It's --

THE COURT: We'll reserve whatever else you're going

to talk about until the break. We have a jury that's waiting,

and let's move forward.

MR. KESSLER: Your Honor, I have -- I get the feeling

that there's a disconnect, that -- that the Court is not

understanding the point I'm trying to make.

They may have been 14 years old when they posted. We

can't change that. But by asking them what their age is now,

I'll -- that just points out. It's like gratuitous evidence of

child prostitution, which I had been led to believe was

something we were going to try to mitigate against.

THE COURT: The argument has been made, and it hasn't

been lost on me, Mr. Kessler. There is no disconnect. There's

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a prior order that specifically speaks to this. I've made

numerous oral pronouncements related to it. And you can

grimace all you want.

MR. KESSLER: I'm --

THE COURT: At some point it becomes exhausting, yes,

for me as well. But I'm going to -- I'll give you the precise

order, I have them all here, the one that addresses this

particular issue. And I'll have you review it tonight. And if

you feel differently, if you feel that it says something

different, then you can come back and make a record. But at

this juncture we're going to proceed in the way that I have

described previously, this morning and last week. And that's

how we are going to proceed.

MR. KESSLER: Very well. Thank you.

THE COURT: All right. Let's have our jury in.

MR. CAMBRIA: Could I make one comment?

I pulled up my opening, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. CAMBRIA: And all I said was, "He, along with

Mr. Larkin, who you know is deceased, started when they were

students."

THE COURT: Well, again --

MR. CAMBRIA: That's it. Nothing about how deceased

or whatever.

THE COURT: Well, who you know is deceased --

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MR. CAMBRIA: Yeah.

THE COURT: -- is the issue. The jurors, half of them

didn't know that he was deceased.

MR. CAMBRIA: I don't think that's true at all.

THE COURT: I do believe so. I think the voir dire

will show that, Mr. Cambria.

MR. CAMBRIA: No.

THE COURT: All rise for the jury.

(Jury present at 1:47 p.m.)

THE COURT: All right. Please be seated.

The jury is welcomed back from the extended lunch. It

has been one of those moments where we had some things to

discuss that -- of a legal nature, and so I apologize for

keeping you waiting.

The government may call its next witness.

MS. PERLMETER: Thank you.

The United States calls Astrid Cervantes.

THE COURT: Ma'am, please come forward to my courtroom

deputy here and be sworn.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Please raise your right hand.

(ASTRID CERVANTES, a witness herein, was duly sworn or

affirmed.)

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.

Please proceed to the witness stand.

MS. PERLMETER: May I proceed, Your Honor?

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THE COURT: Yes, you may.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. Good afternoon.

A. Good afternoon.

Q. Could you please introduce yourself to the members of the

jury.

A. My name is Astrid Cervantes.

Q. Can you spell your first name.

A. A-S-T-R-I-D.

Q. And your last name.

A. C-E-R-V-A-N-T-E-S.

Q. Where are you from, Ms. Cervantes?

A. Montana, California.

Q. And for those of us unfamiliar, where in California is

that?

A. Southern California.

Q. And did you graduate from high school?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have any licenses?

A. I have my cosmetology license and my NASM certification for

fitness training.

Q. And what kind of work do you do?

A. I'm a fitness trainer part time.

Q. Do you have any children?

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A. I have two boys.

Q. Okay. And how old are you?

A. Me?

Q. Yes.

A. 26.

Q. Okay. What do you like to do in your free time?

A. I like to read. Exercise mainly.

Q. Ms. Cervantes, have you heard of a web -- the website

Backpage.com?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, what is Backpage.com?

A. It's a website, based on my understanding, where you go and

advertise --

MR. KESSLER: Objection. That calls for speculation

and lacks foundation.

THE COURT: You can lay some foundation.

MS. PERLMETER: Okay.

THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection.

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. Ms. Cervantes, were you advertised on Backpage.com?

A. Yes.

Q. So what do you know as to -- what do you know -- what --

what is Backpage.com?

A. You go and advertise anything you want to sell.

Q. And do you remember -- you told us you were advertised on

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Backpage.

Do you remember when you were advertised on

Backpage.com?

A. You mean what year?

Q. Yes. What year or number of years were you advertised on

Backpage.com?

A. 2014, November, through January 2015.

Q. Okay. And were you involved in the creation of your

advertisements on Backpage.com?

A. I was never the one posting.

Q. I'm sorry? What did you say?

A. Can you rephrase your --

Q. Sure.

A. -- question?

Q. And when you -- if you could do me a favor. When you

answer the question, if you could please pull the microphone up

close to you and try to speak loudly so that we can all hear

you.

Is that okay?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. Were you involved in the creation of the

advertisements that were made for you on Backpage.com?

A. Yes. I was posted, but --

Q. Okay.

A. -- I never --

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Q. So what I mean is, did you create the ad? Did you type the

words or did you --

A. Never.

Q. Okay. Do you know what you were advertised for?

A. For trafficking.

Q. What does that mean to you?

A. It means an act of -- exchange of money for sex acts.

Q. Now, you said you didn't post your ads. Who created the

advertisements that were advertising you on Backpage.com?

A. Someone named -- that goes by the name L.G.

Q. Anyone else?

A. Star.

Q. Okay. And are those the names that you know these people

as?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. So who was L.G.?

A. He was the pimp, mainly.

Q. And what does pimp mean to you?

A. Well, the one that was doing -- he was the guy doing all

the trafficking, everything for me.

Q. Okay. And who is Star?

MS. BERTRAND: Your Honor, objection. Move to strike

as to prior orders.

THE COURT: Overruled, as the witness has provided a

definition.

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BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. And who is Star?

A. She was one of the girls that was also being trafficked.

Q. Okay. And can you tell us what she looked like?

A. She was Caucasian, blonde.

Q. Okay. And was she also advertising -- do you know if she

was advertising as well on Backpage.com?

A. Yes.

Q. So were you aware that there were photographs -- like were

there photographs taken of you to use in the Backpage

advertisements?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. Who took those photos?

A. It was both of them, L.G. and Star.

Q. Where were those photos taken?

A. In a motel room in San Bernardino.

Q. Okay. Is that in California?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you get to the motel?

A. L.G. picked me up from home and drove me to San Bernardino.

Q. Okay. Were you given instructions, for example, what

clothes to bring for the photos?

A. Yeah. He told me what to bring.

Q. What clothing did you bring for the purpose of taking

photographs?

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A. He told me to bring different pairs of underwears and bra.

Basically lingerie.

Q. And then when you got to the motel room, did L.G. and Star

take photos of you?

A. Yeah.

Q. And what -- did those photographs, were they later used to

post ads for you on Backpage.com?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. Now, I think you told us that you did not write any

of the words that went into your advertisements; is that right?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. Do you know who did?

A. It was mainly L.G.

Q. Did anybody else write any of the words that went into your

ads?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Do you know how L.G. created your ads? And what I mean is,

did -- what kind of device L.G. may have used.

MS. BERTRAND: Objection. Relevance.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: A cell phone.

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. And did you happen to see your ad at some point after it

was posted on Backpage.com?

A. Yeah. He showed me.

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Q. Okay. What name did you use on your Backpage.com

advertisements?

A. He came up with the name Fire.

Q. And is that the name that you went by when you were posted

on Backpage?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, what would happen after your ad on Backpage was

posted?

A. So basically just wait around for clients to call and text

for the service.

Q. Okay. And what do you mean by "client"?

A. Well, that's what we called them, the men that would want

to exchange the money for sex.

Q. Okay. And what do you mean by "service"?

A. Well, that sex is a service.

Q. Okay. So who handled the phone calls and the making of the

arrangements?

A. Star was answering the phone for me so that -- because I

didn't know what to do. So she'll be the one that was doing

all the talking for me.

Q. Okay. So then what would -- would then a -- a client come

to -- well, where did the meetings take place, the meetings

with the clients?

A. In a hotel room.

Q. Okay. And, in general, how would you get to these motel

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rooms or hotel rooms?

A. Well, L.G. would pick me up from my house, and then we

would start as soon as we arrived at the motel.

Q. Okay. And then once you're in the motel room or the hotel

room and the client appears, what happens?

A. Well, the client would text me saying that he's here, and

then everybody, like Star and L.G., would leave the room.

Q. Okay. Do you know where Star and L.G. would leave when the

client arrived?

A. I don't know.

Q. Okay. And then what happened when they left and the client

was in the room?

A. Well, I would -- I think I remember I would, like, accept

the money first, and then I would text L.G., got money --

Q. Okay.

A. -- so that he'll know.

Q. And what happened after you received the money and texted

L.G. that you got the money?

A. Then the service will begin.

Q. Okay. And is that when you exchanged the sex acts with the

client?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And I don't mean to be graphic, but can you just --

it's important for the jury to understand what you mean by "sex

acts." So can you just define for us generally what -- what

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you -- what that means to you.

A. Sexual intercourse.

Q. What happened after the -- the meeting was over?

A. The client would leave, and I would text L.G. that it's

done.

Q. Okay. After you texted L.G. you were done, what happened

after that?

A. Well, he would come back into the room and he held onto the

money.

Q. Okay. You gave him the money?

A. Yes.

Q. The hotel rooms where these dates took place, did you pay

for these rooms?

A. No.

Q. Do you know who did?

A. Either Star or L.G.

Q. And where did these dates take place? Like in, like, what

cities?

A. Mainly in San Bernardino, but we also went to Oceanside and

a little bit in Apple Valley.

Q. Okay. So did L.G. or Star also advertise for you in other

places in California?

A. It was mainly on -- outside of California?

Q. No. In California. I think you said Oceanside?

A. Yeah.

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Q. Is that in California?

A. Yes. It's towards --

Q. I --

A. -- San Diego.

Q. Okay. It's close to San Diego?

Were -- did L.G. or Star ever post or advertise you

somewhere other than California?

A. No.

Oh, other than California, yes.

Q. Outside of California. Did they post you in a different

city or state?

A. In Arizona.

Q. Okay.

A. Yes.

Q. So they posted an advertisement for you on Backpage in

Arizona?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. When was this?

A. 2015, January -- around the Super Bowl time in January --

Q. Okay.

A. -- 30th.

Q. So in January of 2015, was it towards the end of the month?

A. Yeah.

Q. And where was the Super Bowl taking place?

A. I believe it was Phoenix, Arizona.

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Q. Okay. So did L.G. decide that he would come out here with

you and post you on Backpage out here?

MR. CAMBRIA: Objection.

MS. BERTRAND: Objection. Leading.

MR. CAMBRIA: Leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. All right. Whose idea was it to come out to Arizona and

post Backpage ads here?

A. His idea.

Q. Okay. And do you know why he decided to do that?

A. Well, he thought we would make a lot of money coming here.

Q. Okay. Ms. Cervantes, do you know someone named Storm?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Who is Storm?

A. She was one of the new girls that joined the same weekend

when we came out to Arizona.

Q. Okay. So did you meet -- where did you -- where did you

meet Storm, like a -- a few days before you came out to

Arizona?

A. I met her the night before we drove out here in Arizona.

Q. Okay. What does -- what -- what did Storm look like?

A. She was African-American. And that's all I remember.

Q. Okay. And when you met Storm, were you and L.G. all still

in California?

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A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. How -- and then did you guys all travel together

from California to the Phoenix area?

A. Yeah. All four of us did.

Q. Okay. And when you said "all four," who were the four

people that came from --

A. So me, Storm, L.G., and Star.

Q. Okay. How did you get out here?

A. L.G. and Star were taking turns driving.

Q. Okay. Do you know whose car it was?

A. I'm not sure if it was Star's or L.G.

Q. Okay. Did you pay for any of the gas?

A. No.

Q. Did you pay for any of the food or snacks you guys may have

eaten on the way out?

A. No.

Q. When you arrived to Arizona, was it the Phoenix area?

A. I believe so.

Q. Okay. Where did you go?

A. When we arrived?

Q. Yes.

A. In a motel, but I'm not sure which one it was.

Q. Okay. Was it a motel here in the Phoenix area somewhere?

A. Yeah.

Q. And what happened once you got to the -- this motel?

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A. Firstly, we started setting up our profiles. But I wasn't

the one setting it up. It was L.G.

Q. Okay.

A. So everybody was just doing their profiles.

Q. Okay. What do you mean everybody -- what do you mean by

"profile"?

A. Their Backpage profile ad.

Q. Okay. And you said everyone was doing their profile. So

who was everyone?

A. Storm was. Star. And L.G. was doing mine.

Q. Okay. So did L.G. post a Backpage ad of you here in the

Phoenix area once you got here?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. And did you do any dates here in Phoenix?

A. I did a few.

Q. Okay. Did -- where did they take place?

A. In a motel room.

Q. And what happened with the money when you were here in

Phoenix? Was it similar to what would happen in California?

A. Yeah.

Q. Where were -- where was L.G. when you were having your

dates?

A. I'm not sure.

Q. Okay. Do you -- was -- do you know where Star was?

A. Star?

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Q. Yeah.

A. I'm not sure. She might have been doing her own.

Q. Okay. And how about Storm? Do you know where she was?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Did you eventually move to a different motel?

A. Yes.

Q. And when was that?

A. When?

Q. Yeah.

A. I think it was the next day. The next --

Q. Okay.

A. -- morning, I believe.

Q. So the next day you switched to a different motel?

A. Yeah.

Q. And then were there more Backpage ads or the same ads still

being used to advertise you?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. Did -- did you learn that there was a client who

wanted a two girl special?

MS. BERTRAND: Objection.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

MS. BERTRAND: Leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. Okay. Did you learn about a particular date that a client

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requested in the second motel?

MS. BERTRAND: Same objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. What happened in the second motel?

A. Well, I think we just -- we just got there, right, and I

think somebody requested a two girl special.

Q. Okay.

A. Looking for a threesome.

So I don't know whose phone it might have been. It

wasn't -- I don't know if it was mine or Storm's.

MS. BERTRAND: Your Honor, objection to this line of

questioning as to relevance and 403.

THE COURT: Overruled. I'll give Ms. Perlmeter

limited leeway.

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. And what was your understanding as to what was -- what was

expected of you for this client?

MS. BERTRAND: Same objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. You can answer, if you know.

A. Can you repeat it?

Q. Sure.

What was -- what was the -- what did you think was

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expected of you in regards to this client who wanted the

threesome?

A. Well, basically the same thing, I guess, as having a

service.

Q. Okay. Having a service with you?

A. And Storm.

Q. And Storm. Okay.

So was she -- was Storm with you in the motel when --

on that second day?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. Did somebody show up -- did somebody show up for

this date?

A. Yes.

Q. And did the person who showed up turn out to be an

officer working undercover?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And after that, did you stop working for L.G.?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. And during this time that you were with L.G., did

you observe him to have any legitimate form of employment?

MS. BERTRAND: Objection. Calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

She can answer if she has knowledge.

THE WITNESS: Can you repeat that?

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BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. During the time that you were with L.G., did you observe

him to have any legitimate form of employment?

MR. FEDER: Relevance.

THE WITNESS: He did not.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. PERLMETER: Okay.

THE COURT: The answer will stand.

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. Now, Astrid, I want to show you a few exhibits that have

already been admitted.

MS. PERLMETER: I'm showing the witness Exhibit 217a,

which is in evidence.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Ms. Perlmeter, are you

connected?

THE COURT: It doesn't appear you're connected.

MS. PERLMETER: Oh.

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. Ms. Cervantes, do you see the exhibit?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. What is the date of this posting?

A. January 29th, 2015.

Q. And where was it posted?

A. Inland Empire.

Q. Okay. Where is the Inland Empire? Do you know?

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A. San Bernardino County, California.

Q. I'm going to scroll down a few pages. I'm going to show

you a series of photographs; one, two, three, four.

Do you recognize the person in these photos?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is it?

A. Storm.

MS. PERLMETER: Okay. I'm showing the witness Exhibit

Number 217, which is in evidence.

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. Ms. Cervantes, where was this exhibit posted?

A. In Phoenix.

Q. And on what day was it posted?

A. January 31st.

Q. And what year?

A. 2015.

Q. Is this when you were in Phoenix for the Super Bowl?

A. Yes.

Q. I'm going to scroll down and show you the photos.

Do you recognize the person in these pictures?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is it?

A. It's Storm.

Q. Now I'm going to show you Exhibit 215a, which is also in

evidence.

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Can you tell me what date this was posted?

A. November 23rd, 2014.

Q. And in what city was this ad posted in?

A. San Diego.

Q. Okay. I'm going to scroll through, and I'd like you to

please take a look at the photos.

Do you recognize the person in these pictures?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is it?

A. Me.

Q. Okay. Are these the photos that you were telling us about

earlier that L.G. took of you in the motel?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. I'm showing you Exhibit 215, which has also been

admitted into evidence.

Astrid, can you tell us what date that this ad was

posted?

A. January 31st, 2015.

Q. And in what city was the ad posted in?

A. Phoenix.

Q. Okay. Is this when you traveled with L.G. and Star and

Storm from California to Phoenix for the Super Bowl?

A. Yeah.

Q. If you could also briefly look at these photos, and let me

know if you recognize who that person is.

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Do you recognize the person in the photos?

A. Yeah.

Q. Who is it?

A. It's me.

Q. Okay. Astrid, just a couple more questions for you.

I want to ask you if you know any -- I'm going to

ask -- I'm going to give you a couple names, and I'm going to

ask you if you know any of them. Okay?

Do you recognize any -- do you know anyone named

Michael Lacey?

A. No.

Q. Do you know anyone named Scott Spear?

A. No.

Q. Do you know anyone named Jed Brunst?

A. No.

Q. How about Andrew Padilla?

A. No.

Q. And how about Joye Vaught?

A. No.

Q. Okay.

MS. PERLMETER: Okay. No further questions for the

witness, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Who is cross-examining this

witness?

Mr. Eisenberg. I see you're at the ready.

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May I proceed, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes, you may.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. EISENBERG:

Q. Good morning -- good afternoon.

A. Good afternoon.

Q. I represent Mr. Padilla, the gentleman to my left.

You have never seen him before today, I take it?

A. No.

Q. Ms. Cervantes, you have indicated that you didn't actually

post the ad. Somebody else did; is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And you didn't pay for the ads. Somebody else did;

correct?

A. Right.

Q. And that you didn't take the photographs that we've seen of

yourself. Somebody else did; is that correct?

A. Right.

Q. And that when you got money and money you gave -- you gave

to, is it L.G.?

A. Yeah.

Q. Is L.G. also known as Jerome?

A. He is.

Q. And when you gave the money to Jerome, you don't know what

he did with it; correct?

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A. I have no idea.

Q. Okay. As far as you know, though, he didn't pay Backpage

except for the ad; is that right?

A. I'm -- I'm guessing.

Q. Well, we don't want you to guess, so --

A. Well, I don't know the answer.

Q. Okay. That's fine.

Now, when you came out here during Super Bowl time,

you came out with a couple of other people; correct?

A. Yeah.

Q. And then there came a time when an ad was posted; correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And that ad -- one of the ads is number 215.

MR. EISENBERG: May we have that back up on the

monitor again?

BY MR. EISENBERG:

Q. Ma'am, do you recognize this ad?

A. Yes.

Q. That ad is -- this is you; is that correct?

A. Yeah.

Q. And in this first picture, ma'am, would you agree with me

you're fully clothed, aren't you?

A. Yeah.

Q. And would you agree with me in all of the other pictures

you are fully clothed; right?

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A. Right.

Q. There's no place in this ad where it says "sex for money,"

is there?

A. Well, I don't know. I've never even wrote it, so --

Q. Okay.

A. -- whatever it is, I didn't -- I didn't even know about it.

Q. I -- I understand that.

But if you look at the ad, in no place does it say

"sex for money," does it?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Now, my understanding -- excuse me.

You weren't forced to work this type of work, were

you?

A. Well, I was in -- already stuck in this situation with this

guy. So, I mean, it was consensual, but it was also

uncomfortable for me to do.

Q. I understand that. But you weren't forced to do it, were

you?

MS. PERLMETER: Objection.

THE WITNESS: No.

MS. PERLMETER: Relevance.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. EISENBERG:

Q. You weren't brought to Phoenix against your will, were you?

MS. PERLMETER: Objection. Relevance.

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MR. EISENBERG: Your Honor, it goes to --

THE COURT: I'll permit him some leeway.

Mr. Eisenberg can have a little leeway.

MR. EISENBERG: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: You may answer the question.

BY MR. EISENBERG:

Q. You weren't forced to come to Phoenix, were you?

A. No.

Q. And with respect to all of the other postings and issues --

I'm sorry. Let me revise that.

All of the other visitations, can I use that word, by

johns, you weren't forced to do that either, were you?

A. No.

MR. EISENBERG: Thank you, ma'am.

That's all I have, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Anyone else from defense?

Mr. Cambria?

MR. CAMBRIA: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Ms. Bertrand?

MS. BERTRAND: No, thank you.

THE COURT: Mr. Lincenberg?

MR. LINCENBERG: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Kessler or Mr. Feder?

MR. FEDER: No, thanks.

THE COURT: All right. Ms. Perlmeter, any redirect?

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MS. PERLMETER: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: May the witness be excused from subpoena?

MS. PERLMETER: Yes.

THE COURT: Any objection from the defense?

MR. EISENBERG: No, Your Honor.

MR. KESSLER: No.

THE COURT: And, ma'am, we thank you for your

testimony. You are released from your subpoena, and you may

step down.

THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Call your next witness.

MS. PERLMETER: The next witness is Andrea Benson.

THE COURT: Ma'am, please come forward and be sworn by

my courtroom deputy.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Please raise your -- please

raise your right hand.

(ANDREA BENSON, a witness herein, was duly sworn or

affirmed.)

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Please step over to the witness

stand. Thank you.

MS. PERLMETER: May I proceed, Your Honor?

THE COURT: You may.

MS. PERLMETER: Okay.

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DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. Good afternoon.

Could you please introduce yourself to the jury.

A. Andrea Benson.

Q. Okay. Please spell your first name and then your last

name.

A. A-N-D-R-E-A, B-E-N-S-O-N.

Q. And, Ms. Benson, do you have a little bit of a cold today?

A. I do, yes.

Q. Okay. So just for the safety of all of us in the

courtroom, could you please put a mask on.

A. Yes. I just have to put a cough drop in my mouth, too.

Q. Okay. And there's also a cup of water at the table if you

need it.

A. Thank you.

Q. All right. Ms. Benson, where -- where are you traveling

from today?

A. The Bay area.

Q. Okay. And is that where you live?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Okay. And how far did you get in school?

A. I have my master's degree.

Q. Okay. What did you get your undergraduate in?

A. Psychology.

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Q. Okay. And what is your master's in?

A. Sport and performance psychology.

Q. Okay. Are you working currently?

A. I'm on maternity leave currently.

Q. Okay. Did you recently have a baby?

A. I did.

Q. Okay. When you were working, what type of work do you do?

A. I did finance for about six years, and then I went into

personal training, got my master's, and now I'm in staffing.

Q. Okay. And how old are you, Ms. Benson?

A. 33.

Q. Okay. Have you ever heard of a website called

Backpage.com?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And what is Backpage.com?

A. Classifieds and escort ads.

Q. Okay. And what are escort ads to you in relation to

Backpage.com?

A. Escort ads are used to sell sex.

Q. Okay. Have you ever been advertised on Backpage.com?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Can you tell us what year or years you were posted on

Backpage?

A. I would say November or December of 2012 through March of

2015.

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Q. Okay. What were you advertised for on Backpage?

A. Sexual acts.

Q. Okay. Did you create your ads, or were your ads created by

somebody else, or both?

A. Both.

Q. Okay. Let's talk about the time when your advertisements

were being created by somebody else first. Okay?

A. (No audible response.)

Q. Do you know somebody named Michael Knight?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. And who is he?

A. He was my pimp.

Q. Okay. And is he the person that was creating ads for you

on Backpage?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. Okay. Do you know where -- in what cities or where he was

posting you on Backpage?

A. The Portland, Oregon, area, and Salem, Oregon, area.

Q. Okay. And what would happen when Mr. Knight would post an

advertisement for you on Backpage?

A. I would start receiving phone calls and text messages for

my services.

Q. Okay. And did Mr. Knight have other females working for

him at this same time?

A. Yes. He had five to six other girls.

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Q. Okay. And what were they doing? Were they doing the same

thing as you?

A. Yes, they were.

Q. Okay. Did the advertisements that Mr. Knight posted for

you on Backpage include any photos?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. Did you happen to see the ads that Mr. Knight posted for

you?

A. I did at some point. Not initially.

Q. Okay. But when they were being posted, how did those

photographs -- like, when were those photographs taken?

A. Those photographs were taken in November of 2012.

Q. Okay. Where were they taken?

A. They were taken in our home and a hotel.

Q. Okay. And were you provided any instructions on what to

wear or how to pose, for example?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. And how -- and what were you told to wear?

A. Sometimes I would wear provocative clothing, and there are

also photos of me not wearing any clothing.

Q. Okay. Were you at this point part of the drafting on which

words or what text would be included in your ad?

A. No.

Q. Okay. And who was in charge of that?

A. Michael was.

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Q. Okay. Did you have a particular name that you used, or did

you use your real name when Mr. Knight was posting these ads?

A. I used the name Rachel.

Q. Okay. Did you pay for the Backpage ads at this point in

time?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Okay. Do you know who did?

A. Michael did.

Q. Okay. And then once the ads went live, you said that the

phone would start ringing. And then what would you do at that

point, if anything?

A. I would answer the phone.

Q. Okay. What was Mr. Knight doing?

A. He would answer text messages.

Q. Okay. And so when you answered the phone, what -- what

were you having conversations about, generally?

A. We were having conversations about the sexual services that

I would provide and how much those would cost.

Q. Okay. And then after those conversations, what would

happen next?

A. They would come to my hotel.

Q. Okay. And did you guys use -- go to different hotels on

different days?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. Okay. So what would happen when a -- when -- when a john

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would come to the hotel?

A. He'd knock on the door. I would let him in. I would ask

for the donation, which is the -- the payment. And then I

would take it into the bathroom to count it, hide it, and then

we would proceed with performing whatever sexual acts they had

asked for.

Q. Okay. And where was Mr. Knight when this was happening?

A. Either the car or the lobby.

Q. Okay. After the act was over or after the date was over --

before we go there, let me just ask you, so that the jury

understands, what sexual acts mean to you.

What would happen -- what would you do with the johns

that came to the hotel room after they gave you money?

A. Oral sex or vaginal sex.

Q. Okay. And then after that was completed, did the john

leave?

A. Yes.

Q. And then did you ask Mr. Knight to come back to the room?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And then what would happen with the money?

A. He would take the money with him.

Q. Okay. Do you know -- or did you pay for these hotel rooms

when you were with Mr. Knight?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Okay. Do you know who did pay for them?

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A. He did.

Q. Okay. Did you observe Mr. Knight having a legitimate

source of employment during the time that you were with him?

MS. BERTRAND: Objection.

THE WITNESS: No.

MS. BERTRAND: Speculation.

THE WITNESS: This was --

THE COURT: Overruled. She can testify as to what she

observed.

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. Did you observe Mr. -- during the time that you were with

him whether Mr. Knight had any legitimate form of employment?

A. No. We were always together, and he did not do anything

else.

Q. Okay. So how did he pay for the Backpage ads?

A. With his debit card.

Q. Okay. And where did the money come from that went into his

debit card?

A. From me.

Q. Okay. And was it from the -- the dates that you were going

on?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. About how long did -- did -- were you working for

Mr. Knight?

A. Four months.

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Q. Okay. And at some point did you stop working for him?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Do you remember when that was?

A. It was in March of 2013, March 19th.

Q. Okay. And was that the day when a john -- what -- who you

thought was a john came to a hotel to have sex with you?

A. Yes.

Q. And that person ended up being an undercover police

officer?

A. Yes.

Q. And after that day, did you stop working for Mr. Knight?

A. Yes.

Q. What city were you in when this happened?

A. Portland.

Q. Okay. Is that in Oregon?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. After you stopped working for Mr. Knight, did you

continue to have ads posted on Backpage?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Okay. And who was posting at this point?

A. I was.

Q. Okay. Now, with Mr. Knight, you did not post ads. So how

did you learn how to create an advertisement for yourself on

Backpage?

A. By looking at my old ads and looking at other girls' ads.

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Q. Okay. How were you able to find your old ads on

Backpage.com?

A. Looking for my phone number.

Q. Okay. So how did -- like, can you tell the jury how that

worked? How did you use your phone number to find other ads

that were on Backpage for you?

A. You just type it into Google.

Q. Okay. Okay. And what kind of pictures did you use at this

point when you were creating your own ads?

A. Provocative and nude pics --

Q. Okay.

A. -- pictures as well.

Q. Were they of you?

A. Sometimes they were; sometimes they weren't.

Q. Okay. What cities did you post in?

A. I posted in the Portland area, the Seattle/Tacoma area, and

the San Francisco Bay area.

Q. Okay. And did you use your real name when posting ads on

Backpage?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Okay. Why not?

A. It was not safe to do so.

Q. Okay. What's -- what section on Backpage were you posting

in at this time?

A. I believe it was called the escort section.

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Q. Okay. And what was the purpose of your advertising on

Backpage? What were you selling?

A. I was selling myself.

Q. Okay.

A. Sex.

Q. Now, were your ads, did they -- did you phrase your

advertisements so that there were words in the ad that were

very explicitly stating that you were selling sexual services

for money?

MS. BERTRAND: Objection. Leading.

MR. FEDER: Leading.

THE COURT: What was -- I'm sorry, Mr. Feder. What

did -- what was your objection?

MR. FEDER: Probably the same one that Ms. Bertrand

said.

THE COURT: Oh.

MR. FEDER: Leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. PERLMETER: Okay.

THE COURT: You can rephrase.

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. Did your advertisements on Backpage say, I'm going to have

sex with you if you give me money?

A. No.

MR. FEDER: Leading.

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THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. PERLMETER: Okay.

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. Were you -- was your intent to advertise a prostitution ad

on Backpage?

MR. CAMBRIA: I object to that.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

MS. BERTRAND: And relevance.

THE COURT: I'm sorry. I thought I heard Mr. Cambria

say something.

MR. CAMBRIA: I did, Your Honor. I think that --

THE COURT: What was the form of the objection?

MR. CAMBRIA: The objection is that it's irrelevant

and it's speculative.

MR. FEDER: And leading.

Bruce Feder.

THE COURT: Well, I'll sustain the leading objection.

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. Okay. What kind of ads were you creating for yourself on

Backpage? Like what were you -- what services were you trying

to sell?

A. I was trying to sell sex.

Q. Okay. And how did you do that? Can you tell us what words

you used and -- and maybe how you create -- designed your ad?

A. Yes. I used words like busty, young, freaky, eager to

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please. Words that clearly were advertising sex.

Q. Okay. Did you use the word "sex"?

A. No.

Q. How come?

A. That would not be allowed.

Q. Okay. What would happen if you -- did you ever try just

typing out "sex"?

A. No.

Q. Okay. When -- are you familiar with, like, words that --

like in -- words that are coded words for prostitution?

A. Yes.

Q. What are some examples?

A. So you may say "roses" for the amount of money, because

you're not allowed to use dollar signs. Or you may say

"donation." There's words that are, like, acronyms for certain

services, like your menu. So the letters BB would stand for

bareback, meaning not having to use a condom.

Q. All right. And are these words that you learned through

the process of posting on Backpage?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. While you were advertising yourself, did you observe

that the ad that you were creating was not necessarily the one

that ended up being posted live?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you see?

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A. I would see photos that I had put in my ad initially not be

posted, or words switched or removed.

Q. Okay. Did that result in -- did you still receive callers

in response to your ad?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Did you ever receive communications from Backpage

that what you were posting was not permissible?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Did you ever get a notice from Backpage that your

photo, for example, was not allowed?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever receive any messages from Backpage that you

were violating any terms of use?

A. No.

Q. Did you give any -- did you receive any communications from

Backpage that, hey, if you continue posting certain photos,

then we're going to ban you from the website?

MS. BERTRAND: Objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. You can answer.

A. No.

Q. Okay. All right. Ms. Benson, I'm going to show you an

exhibit. It's already in evidence. It's 1546.

Do you recognize the exhibit?

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A. Yes, I do.

Q. And what is it?

A. That's the ad that was posted on the day that the

undercover sting happened.

Q. Okay. And can you tell us what date that was?

A. March 19th, 2013.

Q. Okay. And was it posted in Portland, where the undercover

officer showed up?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recognize the photos in the ad?

A. I do.

Q. Who are they of?

A. They're of me.

Q. Okay. I want to ask you some questions about the words in

the ad.

Is this -- is this one of the advertisements from your

time with Mr. Knight?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Okay. And you were going by the name Rachel at the time?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, are there indicators in this -- what language in this

ad suggests to you that this is an advertisement for

prostitution?

A. Busty. Round booty. Freaky. Satisfaction. A real

pleaser.

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Q. Do you see a telephone number in the ad?

A. I do.

Q. Do you see how there's a combination of numbers and letters

used to list out the phone number?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you also, when you were posting yourself, type your

phone number in this way?

A. Yes.

Q. Why would you do that?

A. So that the police can't track your ads as easily.

Q. Okay. So when you -- when you said you were looking at --

when you were telling the jury earlier about looking for old

ads on Backpage, did you search in this way or did you search

them in a different way?

A. I searched in this way.

Q. Okay. But if you did not know that that's the way it

looked, would it be more difficult to search a phone number?

A. It would.

Q. Okay. And, Ms. Benson, it says that you're well reviewed

in your ad.

At this time, in March of 2015 -- 2015, did you know

that you had reviews?

A. I did not.

Q. Okay. Did you learn at some point -- or let me ask you

this: Do you now know about something -- a website called The

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Erotic Review?

A. Yes.

Q. What is The Erotic Review to you?

A. Website where johns review their sexual experiences with

escorts.

Q. And at the time of the undercover, you know, sting, did you

know that you had reviews on The Erotic Review, whether or not

you did?

MR. FEDER: Objection. Leading.

THE WITNESS: I didn't.

THE COURT: Well, I think she rephrased to "whether or

not you did."

So in that context, the answer -- excuse me -- the

witness may answer.

THE WITNESS: I did not know until the undercover

police told me.

MS. PERLMETER: Okay.

MR. FEDER: Objection. Hearsay. Move to strike.

THE COURT: Sustained.

And the jury will disregard the last statement of the

witness.

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. Okay. So don't tell me what somebody else told you. But

did you learn at a later point that you had a profile on The

Erotic Review?

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MR. FEDER: Calls for hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled.

She can answer --

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: -- if she learned.

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. What did you say?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Did you actually -- have you ever gone on The Erotic

Review to view your -- to see what your profile may look like?

A. No.

Q. Okay. So is it -- so this might seem silly, but did you

create any profile on The Erotic Review for yourself?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Did you know that Backpage had a business

relationship with The Erotic Review?

MS. BERTRAND: Objection.

THE WITNESS: No.

MS. BERTRAND: Leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MS. PERLMETER:

Q. Okay. Did you at some time stop posting advertisements on

Backpage?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And was that in, I think you told us earlier, March

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of 2015?

A. Yes.

MS. PERLMETER: Okay. Nothing further at this time.

Thank you.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Eisenberg?

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. EISENBERG:

Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Benson.

A. Hello.

Q. You needn't be afraid. I'm Dave Eisenberg. I represent

Andrew Padilla, the gentleman to my left.

You've never met him, have you?

A. No.

Q. In fact, you haven't heard the name, perhaps, until this

case began; is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. There are several other people seated here up at counsel

table on the defense side. There's -- well, do you recognize

any of them?

A. I do recognize them.

Q. Who?

A. The guy with the glasses.

Q. Who is that?

A. Is that Larkin?

Q. And where do you recognize him from?

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A. Since the case has happened, I've --

Q. Oh, okay.

A. I don't live under a rock, so ...

Q. All right. But, I mean, by the time you were posting ads,

you didn't have any of the dealings with any of the people on

this side of the courtroom, did you?

A. No.

Q. When did you graduate from college, ma'am?

A. 2011.

Q. So that was before the ads began being posted --

A. Yes.

Q. -- is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. These ads are 2013; right?

A. 2012 through 2015.

Q. Okay. Now, one of the ads that you've identified -- or the

ad that you have identified is Document -- or Exhibit 1546.

MR. EISENBERG: Can we just get that back up on the

screen just for a moment.

BY MR. EISENBERG:

Q. And this was shown to you by the government. 1546.

Okay. Do you see it there, ma'am?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now, this ad has your -- has the name that you

posted, and that's Rachel; is that correct?

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A. Yes.

Q. And it has your age of 21 --

A. Yes.

Q. -- is that correct?

You were at least 21, were you not?

A. Yes.

Q. And then there's this telephone number that you were asked

about.

Can you read that to the jury, ma'am.

A. "702six7four6077" [as read].

Q. And that was the telephone number that was posted in this

ad; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And that's the number that the johns called you at in order

to get ahold of you; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. So they didn't have any problem getting ahold of you;

right?

A. Right.

Q. So there came a time after Mr. Knight -- I think that's

what his name was. Was he the man who originally was posting

ads for you?

A. Yes. He was my pimp.

Q. Okay. And you lived with him for a time; is that correct?

A. Yes.

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Q. And then after a point -- there came a point in time when

he -- he was the one who took the photographs of you; is that

correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And he's the one who did the texts with customers; is

that --

A. Yes.

Q. -- correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And he's the one who wrote the language that went

into the posts --

A. Yes.

Q. -- is that correct?

There came a time when he came -- or fell out of the

picture; right?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you continued on your own to post ads --

A. Yes.

Q. -- is that correct?

So at that point in time, you didn't have a pimp?

A. Correct.

Q. And that lasted for about two and a half years; is that

correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. So at some point in time when you were posting ads,

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you, yourself, were posting ads on Backpage, there came points

in time when words were taken out of your ads; right?

A. Yes.

Q. And there came a -- a point in time when photographs were

taken out of your ads. They were missing; right?

A. Yes.

Q. And those photographs, I believe, were ones where you

were -- had posted naked photographs of yourself; right?

A. Yes.

Q. And so those were the ones that were removed; right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. There were times, too, when you tried to use

terminology that was sexually explicit; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And give me an example of that that you used that was

sexually explicit.

A. I can't recall.

Q. Okay. But that language got taken out of ads, too, didn't

it?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And there became a point in time when some of your

ads were published; is that correct?

A. No. They were always published.

Q. Always published?

A. Yes.

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Q. The only one that you can identify, however, is the one

that you've shown that's here today, 1546; is that correct?

A. It's the only one that's in evidence.

Q. That's the only one that's in evidence; right --

A. Right.

Q. -- as far as you know?

It's really not a fair question. Okay.

And at the time this ad, 1546, was posted -- I believe

you've told us what your age is.

Ma'am, is that your picture in the ad?

And I think we've taken it off, but we needn't bring

it back up.

That is your picture in the ad?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. The top picture and middle picture as well?

A. Yes.

Q. And the bottom picture as well?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And in the bottom picture, you're covering your

breasts; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. You did that deliberately. I mean, that was planned,

wasn't it?

A. By Michael, yes.

Q. Yes. Okay.

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MR. EISENBERG: No further questions, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Cambria?

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. CAMBRIA:

Q. Good afternoon.

You indicated that at one point in time a -- an

undercover police officer responded to you. Is that what

happened?

A. Yes.

Q. And was there a conversation with that police officer that

led to you being arrested?

A. No.

Q. Well, the officer -- well, were you at a hotel or

something?

A. Yes.

Q. And an officer knocked on the door?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Was there a discussion then about sex for

money?

A. No.

Q. Okay. As a result of being arrested at that time, did you

cease performing any prostitution work after that experience?

MS. PERLMETER: Objection. Misstates testimony.

MR. CAMBRIA: I'm sorry. I didn't hear that.

MS. PERLMETER: I can -- I don't want to do a speaking

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objection, but I can point to the part of the question if the

Court would like.

MR. CAMBRIA: I'm just asking if she quit doing it.

THE COURT: Overruled. She can answer yes or no.

BY MR. CAMBRIA:

Q. Did you quit?

A. I cannot answer yes or no because the question was not

phrased in a way that I can do that.

He put incorrect information in the question.

THE COURT: Rephrase your question. She's unable to

answer the current one.

BY MR. CAMBRIA:

Q. Okay. The question was, after that arrest experience, did

you stop doing prostitution work?

A. I still cannot answer the question.

Q. I'm sorry?

A. I still cannot answer that question. I was not arrested.

Q. Oh, I'm sorry.

The police officer -- I thought that you said that an

undercover police officer encountered you on that day?

A. But I was not arrested.

MR. CAMBRIA: Okay. Very good. That's all.

THE COURT: Ms. Bertrand?

MS. BERTRAND: Nothing. Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Lincenberg?

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MR. LINCENBERG: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Feder?

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. FEDER:

Q. I just want to follow up on something.

MR. FEDER: Could you bring 1546 back up, please.

BY MR. FEDER:

Q. Do you see where it says "credit cards accepted"?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that true?

A. Yes.

Q. Which credit cards were accepted by you and -- and -- I'm

sorry -- Mr. -- your friend was?

MS. PERLMETER: Objection. Misstates testimony.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. FEDER:

Q. Were your actions paid for by credit cards?

A. Sometimes, yes.

Q. Which ones?

A. Any that the Square would take.

Q. So Visa, MasterCharge, American Express?

A. I don't know for sure if it took American -- American

Express, because that's not always taken --

Q. Yeah.

A. -- actually.

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Q. And then, to your knowledge, how would -- how would you get

paid from the credit card companies?

A. That would go into my bank account.

Q. Did you have a personal bank account, or did you have some

kind of corporate name for your -- for your business that

would -- that the credit card companies would pay?

A. You could choose whatever name you wanted on the Square

app.

Q. So what name did you choose?

A. I did not choose it. Michael did. And I don't recall the

name.

Q. Okay. Did you ever see any -- any of the checks that were

paid to Michael or anything else so you might know that?

A. No.

Q. How long did that go on? I mean, in other words, from the

time that you were with Michael, I think you testified

four months?

A. Right.

Q. Paid on a monthly basis from the credit cards?

A. I imagine that there were only maybe less than five people

that even wanted to pay with a credit card considering what

they were purchasing.

Q. Okay. Do you -- I mean, do you know anything about how

the -- the act was set up with Visa and MasterCharge?

MS. PERLMETER: Objection. Calls for speculation.

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THE COURT: Well, she can answer if she knows. He

asked her, "Do you know?"

THE WITNESS: No.

BY MR. FEDER:

Q. When you went out on your own and started to -- to go into

business independently, did you also accept credit cards?

A. I do not recall.

Q. You don't recall?

A. Well, we've dragged court on for six years, so, no. It's

been a long time.

Q. Okay. You testified that when you went out on your own you

were able to retrieve your old ads from Google?

A. Yes.

Q. And was it -- was it the actual ad?

A. Yes.

Q. So you would -- you typed in to Google, you put in your

phone number, and all of the ads that had been posted in regard

to your services were right there?

A. I believe when you repost you're not seeing all of the ads.

You're just seeing the most recent one.

Q. Okay. Did you ever get any calls from the ads that were on

Google?

A. No.

Q. But the -- but the ads that -- the 15 -- 1546 that -- the

ad was read on Google?

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A. And then you click on Backpage.

Q. Okay. All right.

How many times have you talked to the -- to the

prosecutors? If you know.

A. I think, like, four or five times.

Q. And where did those discussions take place?

A. Sometimes in person. Sometimes over, like, Microsoft

Teams.

Q. I'm sorry? Could you give the -- give me that again.

A. Sometimes in person, and sometimes over Microsoft Teams.

Q. Of the times in person, where did -- where was that --

where did that take place?

A. Portland and Tampa.

Q. And, if you recall, how many people from the government

came up to see you on those occasions?

A. I believe both times it was three people.

Q. Do you see any of those folks in the -- in the courtroom

here?

A. Yeah.

Q. Could you point them out and tell me?

A. Peggy and Desirae. But I believe that the third person,

Amy, is not here.

Q. Okay. Were any of those visits or calls on Teams

tape-recorded, to your knowledge?

A. I do not recall.

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Q. Presumably you've never heard the -- a recording of any of

those meetings?

A. I have not.

Q. How long did those meetings last, if you recall?

A. I believe the first one was several hours. The second one

was probably more like an hour.

Q. Okay. You were asked a number of questions about what

happened -- that some of your ads -- your ads and Mr. Knight's

ads were edited; is that right?

A. Right.

Q. So both -- Mr. -- to your knowledge, both Mr. Knight's ads

on behalf of you and then your own ads on behalf of yourself

were edited?

A. I can only speak on the ads that I posted.

Q. You never saw the ads that -- that Mr. Knight posted for

you?

A. By the time I did see them, he wasn't sharing information

like this with me.

Q. Understood. Okay.

As to your own ads, have you -- have you been shown

your own ads since you've started cooperating with the

government?

A. I think that -- I don't recall if we found my ads or not.

Q. Okay. In regard to your own ads, you said -- I think you

testified that you looked at your own ad on -- on Google,

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number 1, and that you went on to Backpage and found --

basically tried to copy -- kind of copy and paste from the --

from those ads, too.

Did you look at any other source to get some -- to get

ideas?

A. No.

THE COURT: What was the objection?

MS. PERLMETER: It's -- it's a 412 objection. I'd ask

counsel to ask a more direct question that does not trigger

412.

THE COURT: Overruled as to the question before the

witness.

BY MR. FEDER:

Q. Did you go to any other sources other than your own ad on

Google or Backpage to get ideas on how to craft the ads that

you posted?

A. No.

MS. PERLMETER: Objection. 412.

THE COURT: Overruled. And the answer will stand.

BY MR. FEDER:

Q. Did you meet Michael on Facebook?

MS. PERLMETER: Objection. Relevance.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. FEDER:

Q. Did you tell the government that you met Michael on

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Facebook?

MS. PERLMETER: Objection. Relevance.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. FEDER:

Q. When you were crafting your own ads after you left Michael,

you testified that essentially you would see the ad and some

part of it would have been edited out; right?

A. Correct.

Q. And that included some of the photographs that you had

taken of yourself; right?

A. Yes.

Q. Some of the words that you had used in those ads were taken

out?

A. Yes.

Q. Would the result be an ad that was mush or didn't make any

sense?

A. Not at all.

Q. No?

But the things that were -- that were edited out were

things that -- that you had been warned about when you went

into Backpage and went through the terms of use and the posting

rules; right?

A. Some.

Q. Well, no nudity; right?

A. I can't recall the rules. I have not posted since 2015.

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Q. No sex-for-money ads; right?

A. I can't recall.

Q. You haven't -- you didn't -- you weren't shown them when

you were practicing for your testimony with the prosecutors?

A. No.

Q. So you would look at the ad that you had posted. You would

see that parts of it are missing; right?

MS. PERLMETER: Objection. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Well, I'll sustain. It's a form of a

prior question.

BY MR. FEDER:

Q. How many -- when you were on your own, how many ads would

you say -- independent -- or, I'm sorry -- original ads would

you say you posted on Backpage?

A. Can you clarify that question? Original versus what?

Q. Versus reposting or something like that.

Do you know what reposting is?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Okay. When you repost, you're just reposting the same old

ad; right?

A. I used a lot of original ads because I used different names

and phone numbers frequently once I was posting myself.

Q. Okay. And would -- how many different ads would you say

you crafted your own and posted on Backpage?

A. If I had to guess, I would say at least six.

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Q. Six?

A. If I had --

Q. And of those six ads that you created on your own, how many

of them were edited in some fashion?

A. Most of them were edited photo-wise.

Q. How about terminology?

A. I figured out the terminology pretty quick.

Q. Well, I mean, anybody can take one word and try to scramble

it up to make it not the same word; right?

A. Right.

Q. And you're a college graduate, so, I mean, you were pretty

good at doing that; right?

MS. PERLMETER: Objection. Argumentative.

THE COURT: Well, sustained as to the form of the

question.

MR. FEDER: That's all I have. Thanks.

THE COURT: Thank you.

Ms. Perlmeter?

MS. PERLMETER: No, Your Honor. Thank you.

THE COURT: May the witness be released from subpoena?

MS. PERLMETER: Yes, please.

THE COURT: Is there any objection from the defense?

MR. CAMBRIA: No, Your Honor.

MS. BERTRAND: No.

THE COURT: All right. Ma'am, you are released from

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subpoena. We thank you for your testimony. You may step down.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

THE COURT: And I had anticipated taking a break at

3:00 o'clock, but let's -- since we're at a transition point

and counsel have been here since 1:15, let's go ahead and take

our afternoon recess.

Members of the jury, again I remind you of the

admonishment. It's critical, as we are progressing forward,

not to come to any conclusions. We're still receiving

testimony. And not to do any sort of research and just to

simply keep an open mind.

And with that, we will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

Please all rise for the jury.

(Jury not present at 2:56 p.m.)

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Kessler, my law clerk will

give you the order that I referred to, and we will stand in

recess.

(Recess from 2:56 p.m. to 3:20 p.m.)

(Jury not present at 3:20 p.m.)

THE COURT: All right. Let's have the jury in.

All rise for the jury.

(Jury present at 3:20 p.m.)

THE COURT: All right. Welcome back, members of the

jury. Please be seated.

And the government may call its next witness.

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ARSHANA SANDERS-WILLIS - DIRECT EXAMINATION

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MR. BERRY: Thank you, Your Honor. The United States

calls Arshana Sanders.

THE COURT: Ma'am, please come forward and be sworn by

my courtroom deputy.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Please raise your right hand.

(ARSHANA SANDERS-WILLIS, called as a witness herein, was

duly sworn or affirmed.)

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Please proceed to the witness

stand.

THE COURT: You may proceed when you're ready.

MR. BERRY: Thank you, Your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. Good afternoon, Arshana.

Would you please state and spell your first name for

the jury.

A. Arshana, A-R-S-H-A-N-A.

Q. All right. That was really fast. Can you spell it slowly

a little bit.

A. A-R-S-H-A-N-A.

Q. Thank you.

And what's your last name, Arshana?

A. It's hyphenated. So Sanders, S-A-N-D-E-R-S, Willis,

W-I-L-L-I-S.

Q. All right. Thank you.

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And where do you live?

A. Right outside Detroit, Michigan.

Q. Okay. Is that where you traveled from to be here this

week?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have any children?

A. No.

Q. Where do you -- what do you do for a living?

A. I work for Detroit Light Company and Kroger grocery store.

Q. All right. And what do you do for the Detroit Light

Company?

A. Customer service for low income.

Q. Okay. And for Kroger, what do you do?

A. Cashier.

Q. And how old are you, Arshana?

A. 29.

Q. Are you familiar with Backpage.com?

A. Yes.

Q. When did you first -- approximately when did you first

become aware of Backpage?

A. Year 2014.

Q. Okay. And what was the -- the -- how did you become aware

of it?

A. My sister was using -- she was posting on Backpage.

Q. Okay. And who -- what was your sister's name?

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A. Cynthia Worthy.

Q. And what's the difference in age between you and Cynthia?

A. She's three and a half years older than me.

Q. So you learned that your sister was utilizing Backpage in

approximately 2014; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Did you ever observe your sister utilizing

Backpage?

A. Yes.

Q. What do you recall personally observing her doing on

Backpage?

A. She would post pictures and, like, lingerie. Like,

would -- oh, okay. Yeah, she would post pictures and -- I

mean, I don't know. Like what else?

Q. Were there pictures of herself?

A. Oh, yeah, of herself in lingerie.

Q. All right. And would those pictures be part of an

advertisement of some kind?

A. Yeah. She would actually -- she would call it like she had

to post an ad. That's what she would say.

Q. Okay. And you would see her do this yourself?

A. Yes.

Q. And it's important as we keep going forward through this,

Arshana, that as best you can, I'm going to ask you questions

about what you saw as opposed to what she said. Okay?

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A. Okay.

Q. So let's try to stick to that as best we can. I understand

that that's sometimes a little challenging.

A. Okay.

Q. So you said that you saw her posting these ads; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you know in what section on Backpage she would post

ads?

A. Yes.

Q. What sections?

A. Oh, there was a section for escorts.

Q. Okay. And what did you understand your sister's ads in the

escort section on Backpage to be about?

MR. FEDER: Objection. Hearsay.

MR. BERRY: I asked what she understands.

THE COURT: Overruled. She can answer if she -- if

she can.

THE WITNESS: She would post, like, ads of herself

through -- for other people to, like, get online to see them so

she can meet with them to have sex for money.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. Okay. And you said that she would post in these ads

pictures of herself in lingerie; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. What other features of the ad do you recall seeing

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yourself? Like the -- what different parts of the ad?

Describe it as best you can to the jury.

A. I recall seeing, like, pictures of her, like, of course in

the lingerie or -- or identified that it was her from, like,

tattoos that she had. What she would name -- what she -- the

name that she went by when she would post ads. Her, like,

telephone number, like -- things like that.

Q. All right. And what name did she go by on Backpage escort

section?

A. Lady.

Q. Okay. And you said you also recognized the phone number

that she utilized in the ad?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Do you remember whether her ads had any kind of

emojis in them?

A. Yeah. She always would use, like, emojis, yeah. She used

emojis in her ads.

Q. Okay. And can you describe for the jury, as best you

recall, what type of emojis you saw her use in these ads.

A. It was a variety. She would use, like, hearts, kissy

faces, the three, like, water, like, dripping inside. And

then, like, the candy, like, lollipop ones. I've seen that

before.

Q. Okay. And did you have any understanding as to whether

those emojis had any specific meaning in the context of her

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ads?

A. Yeah. The water sign.

Q. What did that mean, in your understanding?

MS. BERTRAND: Objection. Calling for speculation.

MR. FEDER: And hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. You can answer.

A. It -- I -- I don't know how to answer this.

Q. Is this -- is this a difficult topic to talk about?

A. No. It's just uncomfortable. I guess it just meant

like -- it was like -- it was sexual.

Q. All right. That's fine. So you -- the three droplets was

sexual in nature is your understanding?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. What about the lollipop? Was that also sexual

in nature?

MS. BERTRAND: Same objection. Leading and

speculation.

THE COURT: Well --

MR. FEDER: And hearsay.

THE COURT: -- I'll sustain just as to leading.

MR. BERRY: Yes, Your Honor.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. What was your understanding as to the meaning behind the

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lollipop emoji that your sister used in these ads?

MS. BERTRAND: Same objections.

THE COURT: Overruled. She can answer if she had an

understanding.

THE WITNESS: I understood that it meant -- because

I've seen her, like -- I've seen her in her ads say something

like sweet as candy. So that's what I kind of understood that

to be.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. Okay. Do you know if your sister made any money off of the

ads that she posted on Backpage?

A. Off the ads, per se, no. But I know that she posted the

ads to make money, to meet with people to make money.

Q. And that's what I was getting at. So you -- you got there,

so thank you.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Where would you all typically be when she would go to post

her ad?

A. We pretty much hung out every day. So we would do things

like go to the beach. We spent a lot of time with my nieces

and my little sister. So we would always be, like, at a family

member house, like, or maybe go to a club. And then we would

always just be out, and she would post ads after we leave.

Q. And why was she posting the ads?

A. She was more so like -- she was our big sister. So she --

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anytime we went out, she always took care of a lot of stuff, so

she would say she would have to make her money back.

Q. Okay. And when she posted an ad, what happened after that,

typically after her ad would go live?

MS. BERTRAND: Objection. Speculation.

THE COURT: Lay some foundation.

MR. BERRY: Sure.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. Were you ever with her -- I think you already testified

that you were with her when you watched her post ads; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Were you ever with her after the ad went live?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you know what would happen to her phone after her ad

went live?

MS. BERTRAND: Objection. Vague as to time.

THE COURT: Well, overruled.

But then I'll just put Mr. Berry on notice that he

needs to perhaps lay some foundation as to time.

MR. BERRY: Sure.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. So you testified that you first became aware of her utility

of Backpage in 2014; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Did that end sometime in August of 2015?

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A. Yes.

Q. All right. So between 2014 and August of 2015. All my

questions to you are relating to that time period. Okay?

A. Okay.

Q. All right. So when she would post these ads during that

time frame and you were with her, do you know what, if

anything, would happen to her phone?

A. Yeah. Her phone would start ringing.

Q. All right. And how soon after her ad went live would her

phone start ringing?

A. Fairly quickly. And if not, she would post again.

Q. Okay. Were you ever -- do you know if the -- she would

ever repost the ad back at the top?

A. Yes.

Q. Was this her main source of income, or did she have another

income?

MR. FEDER: Calls for hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. You can answer.

A. It was her main source of income.

Q. How often was she posting her ads in the escort section on

Backpage between 2014 and 2015?

A. When I learned in 2014, she would post every day. Towards

August 2015, it probably, like, once or twice a week.

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Q. Okay. How would she -- well, let me ask you. Do you know

how she would pay for the ad, like, physically? Do you know

how she would physically pay for the ad?

A. Yes. We would go to, like, CVS, like a drugstore, like a

Walmart. She would get prepaid Vanilla cards.

Q. Vanilla cards?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And you watched her do that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she have a regular bank account?

A. Yes.

Q. And did she have, like, a debit card associated with that

bank account?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she use that regular bank account and debit card for

her Backpage activity?

A. Yes.

Q. She would use a regular debit card, or she would use --

A. Oh, I'm sorry.

Q. -- the Vanilla cards?

A. She would use Vanilla cards.

Q. Okay. So she would not use her regular bank account?

A. No.

Q. Okay. You said you went with her and saw her buy these

Vanilla cards to post the ads.

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Did you ever go with her to any other stores that were

associated with her Backpage activity?

A. Like lingerie stores.

Q. Okay. Did you ever --

A. Like --

Q. Did you ever go to CVS with her?

A. Yes.

Q. And what would you see her purchase at CVS?

A. She would get lubricant, like Y condoms.

Q. Did you -- were you ever in the car with her when someone

would call responding to her ad?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Did you have an opportunity to overhear those

conversations?

A. Yes.

Q. After you heard those conversations, did you ever ride with

her to a meet location?

A. Yes.

Q. And what would you do and what would she do when you were

at that location, to the best of your knowledge?

A. I'll wait in the car. She would take -- she probably would

drink some wine and take the condoms and the lubricant, and

she'll go inside.

Q. And how long would she typically be inside?

A. It depends. Like 30 minutes, 45 minutes.

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Q. Never more than that?

A. Poss- -- possibly. I've only been with her twice.

Q. Okay. Have you ever been inside her apartment?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you ever observe anything in her apartment that you

believed was connected to her Backpage activity?

A. Yes.

Q. Like what?

A. Vanilla cards.

Q. Okay. Did you see -- how -- you know, how many of them did

you see?

A. A lot. They were, like, on her nightstand. They were

just -- they were just, like, around the house.

Q. And do you -- do you know whether she used those for

anything other than Backpage?

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. Okay. All right. I'm going to show you what's already in

evidence as Government's Exhibit 221. And I'm going to scroll

through these photographs.

Do you recognize the person in these photographs?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is it?

A. Cynthia.

Q. And were you able to identify her by some of the tattoos

and things like that in her ad?

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A. Yes.

Q. In addition to seeing her face?

A. Yes.

Q. This phone number down here, do you recognize that?

A. Yes.

Q. What is it?

A. Cynthia's phone number.

Q. And what about this name here?

A. This was the name that she went by.

Q. Just for purposes of the record, what is the date on this

particular ad?

A. August 15th, 2015.

MR. BERRY: Okay. Pass the witness, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Who's going to examine for the defense?

Mr. Cambria.

MR. CAMBRIA: No questions.

THE COURT: Ms. Bertrand?

MS. BERTRAND: None. Thank you.

THE COURT: Mr. Lincenberg?

MR. LINCENBERG: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Kessler?

MR. KESSLER: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Eisenberg?

MR. EISENBERG: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. May the witness be excused

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from subpoena?

MR. BERRY: Yes.

THE COURT: Any objection from defense?

MR. CAMBRIA: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Ma'am, we thank you for your testimony.

You are excused from subpoena. You may step down.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

THE COURT: The government may call its next witness.

MR. BERRY: Thank you, Your Honor. The United States

calls Derek Fritze.

THE COURT: Sir, please come forward to my courtroom

deputy and be sworn.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Please raise your right hand.

(DEREK FRITZE, a witness herein, was duly sworn or

affirmed.)

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: If you will please step over to

the witness stand. Thank you.

THE COURT: And you may proceed when ready.

MR. BERRY: Thank you, Your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Fritze.

Would you please state your first name and spell it

for the jury.

A. Derek, D-E-R-E-K.

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Q. And would you please state your last name and spell it for

the jury.

A. It's Fritze, F-R-I-T-Z-E.

Q. In what state do you live, sir?

A. State of Minnesota.

Q. And did you travel from there to be here for this trial

this week?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. How old are you, sir?

A. 43 years old.

Q. And where do you work?

A. I work for the Maplewood Police Department in Maplewood,

Minnesota.

Q. And, if you would, please give the ladies and gentlemen of

the jury a little sense about the size of your community and

the size of your police department.

A. The city of Maplewood is a first-ring suburb of St. Paul.

We have -- population is about 40,000 people. Our department

has approximately 53 sworn officers right now.

Q. Okay. And what is your -- your present title, job?

A. Currently I'm a detective.

Q. Do you have any college education?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Please explain that to the jury.

A. I have a bachelor's degree in criminal justice, a master's

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degree in sport management, and a master's degree in police

leadership.

Q. How long have you worked with the Maplewood Police

Department?

A. About 16 years.

Q. If you would, please, explain to the jury your work history

in law enforcement during those 16 years.

A. I've had several different positions. I've -- was a patrol

officer. I was part of a street crimes unit. I was a school

resource officer and a juvenile investigator. I was a retail

crime investigator and a -- a detective for several years. And

then I was a patrol sergeant for three years.

And then as of the beginning of January this year, I'm

a detective again.

Q. So several different investigative jobs with Maplewood?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Did you receive any kind of general training on how

to be a police officer when you first started?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Explain that to the jury.

A. Minnesota has a police officer licensing certificate, so it

involved specific courses and then a practical skills

application before getting hired as a -- as a police officer.

Q. Okay. So you did that before you even got on with the

police department?

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A. Yes.

Q. All right. And then did you ever have any more specific

training on how to investigate prostitution offenses?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Explain that to the jury.

A. While I was working in the street crimes unit, I was --

took a course, a training course with the St. Paul Police

Department. It was a learning and a practical training on

prostitution operations and kind of the procedure and how to go

about it.

Q. All right. And you say a -- a practical training. Help

the jury understand what that means.

A. As part of the class, St. Paul Police Department did a

actual prostitution sting operation, and we participated in --

in that.

Q. All right. So you had hands-on training, basically, with

doing these types of stings?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. After this training, did it -- did you then go back

to Maplewood and conduct similar type stings?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And we'll talk about that in a -- in a second.

About how many prostitution-related investigations

could you estimate that you've worked in the course of your

career?

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A. I'd say probably approximately a hundred or so.

Q. Okay. Are you familiar with a website Backpage.com?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. How did you first become aware of Backpage?

A. It was through that -- the training that I took with the

St. Paul Police Department.

Q. Okay. So was that utilized in that training?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. And what was it that you learned -- well, let's -- let's

establish a time frame here.

When was that training approximately?

A. Approximately 2011.

Q. Okay. And what was it that you learned about Backpage

during that training?

A. That was the method used for the prostitution stings,

whether they were stings or reverse stings.

Q. Okay. And why was Backpage the place you went to do those

types of stings?

A. Because that's where prostitution-related offenses were --

were found at that time.

Q. And so when you went back to Maplewood after your training

at St. Paul, so we're talking about 2011 and later, did you

utilize Backpage in your law enforcement investigations?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did you do stings of your own?

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A. Yes.

Q. If you would, please, explain to the jury what the -- what

the stings entailed. And it -- you can distinguish and

articulate sting versus reverse sting, or however you referred

to it.

A. Yeah. So we would -- as a department, we would typically

have a two-day operation, and we'd do it about

every approximately three months, where we would get a hotel

room within the city of Maplewood. One day we would do a

prostitution sting, where we would use Backpage to look for ads

of females and have them come to us. And then on a second day,

we would do the reverse sting and have the -- we would post ads

on Backpage and have the -- the males call us and respond to

our location.

Q. All right. So you would have two-day ops. One day was you

were going after the people posting the ads?

A. Yes.

Q. And one day you're going after the people responding to the

ads?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. When doing the -- the stings, where you're

responding to an ad already published, did you look at those

ads to investigate them?

A. Yes.

Q. How -- explain to the jury how that would work, when you

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would do those types of stings.

A. Well, typically part of our investigation, we would look

for ones that posted in close to our area, posted in Maplewood.

We would look for -- depending on if they had given an age, or

looking at the photographs, if it were -- if they gave, like, a

younger age, closer to 18 or younger -- or, sorry. If they

looked younger in pictures, we would try to get them hoping it

was an underage person that's -- has that ad. And more to

locate, I guess, more victims of prostitution.

Q. Is that where you were focusing your resources, is on those

types of people being posted?

A. For the -- those stings, yes.

Q. Okay. Would you then call those ads to set up a date?

A. Yes.

Q. How many ads would you say you have reviewed in your law

enforcement career in the escort section on Backpage?

A. Hundreds.

Q. Okay. In the course of reviewing those hundreds of ads,

did you come to understand or learn the terminology that was

commonly used in the content of those ads?

A. Yes.

Q. What were some of those commonly used terms, to the best of

your memory?

A. There are several. I mean, it started with incall or

outcall. And having them come to you or you going to them.

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Age of the -- the person. Physical descriptions. Body

measurements. Breast size. Things like that.

Q. Okay.

A. Language. Talking about different -- coded -- coded

language talking about different acts or different features of

a body, like -- as an example, like, kitty meaning vagina, or

Greek, meaning anal sex. Talking about money and dollar

amounts. Like they would use words like donations or roses.

Those are just some of the examples.

Q. Okay. When you did -- let's pivot. So let's do the

other -- the flip side of that. Let's talk about the reverse

stings. And, again, the reverse stings were when you all --

the police department would post an ad and try to get johns; is

that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Were you ever involved in creating the ads for

those reverse stings?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you know what content to include in the ads?

A. Basically looking at other ads that were out there and

using similar language and similar photos.

Q. Okay. So let's start at the top. Where -- what's the

first thing that you're going to go look for to figure out how

to post an ad?

A. Just looking at some of those -- the language that was

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used.

Q. All right. What about the -- the location where the ad was

posted?

A. Oh, we always put it in a Backpage ad, the escorts.

Q. So on Backpage in the escort section?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. So you wouldn't go to buy/sell/trade on Craigslist

or anywhere else?

A. No.

Q. Okay. What about the amount of time and money? Would that

be something that you would include in the ad?

A. Yes.

Q. And how would that typically be designated in the ad?

A. It would be -- typically we would put either a half hour or

an hour time increment. We'd -- we'd try to put a lower dollar

amount, because we obviously knew we weren't going to be, you

know, paying. We were hoping that people would respond more by

seeing a lower dollar amount.

Q. Gotcha.

And would you typically put in there incall or

outcall?

MR. KESSLER: Objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. What are some other terms that you would include in the ads

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when you were creating them?

A. Well, since we were doing it at our -- at a hotel, I mean,

we'd put in there that it's incall.

Q. Okay. You were never going to go to the john in this

scenario?

A. I'm sorry? What was that?

Q. You were never going to go to the john in this scenario;

correct?

A. No.

Q. All right. What other language do you remember being put

in the content of these ads when you were creating them?

A. We'd put a lot of physical descriptions. Put things, you

know, trying to entice them, you know, that we're -- we'll do

anything, anything for the right price. And putting some of

those even, you know, more playful words, kind of like fun and,

I'm going to entertain you, or, you know, things like that.

Q. All right. Would you put in there, I will have sex with

you for money?

MR. KESSLER: Objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. Would you put in explicit sex-for-money language?

A. No.

Q. Why not?

A. Ad, it would be taken down by Backpage if we did.

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Q. After the ads that you all created were posted, what would

happen next?

A. We would get phone calls immediately.

Q. When you say "immediately," can you give the jury a sense

of the time frame?

A. Within minutes.

Q. What did the escort term on Backpage mean to you as an

investigator?

MR. KESSLER: Objection. Relevance.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. You can answer.

A. That -- that it's prostitution.

Q. Did you send any emails to Backpage in July of 2012?

MS. BERTRAND: Objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. Did you ever send any emails to Backpage?

MS. BERTRAND: Same objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. Do you know approximately when you sent them?

A. Probably in July of 2012.

Q. Okay. And before we keep going to those, back to the ads

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that you were posting, how did you and your fellow officers

know how to post ads on Backpage and what the content should

include?

A. From -- from the training we'd -- or that I took and just

by viewing ads on Backpage.

Q. Just looking at what else is already out there?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. Okay. So you said in 2012 you sent some emails to

Backpage?

A. Yes.

Q. Why were you sending those emails to Backpage?

A. It was a -- in response to -- we had done a prostitution

sting. It was a response to some of the arrests that we made

based on the ads that were on Backpage.

Q. All right. So flush that out a little bit for the jury.

What -- what had happened, and what did -- what steps did you

take next?

A. So we had done a prostitution sting. We had made -- used

Backpage to call females incall to us at the hotel. They

responded, and we made arrests based on the ads that were

posted on Backpage.

Q. And what kind of arrests were those?

A. For prostitution, and I believe one was for promotion of

prostitution.

Q. All right. So you had done this many times before at this

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point; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And so what prompted you to send these emails

to Backpage at that time?

A. I think just -- I think it got to that point where we're

seeing it happen over and over again and not understanding how

they could allow this to continue.

MS. BERTRAND: Your Honor, objection. Relevance.

Move to strike.

MR. BERRY: I'm laying foundation for four exhibits,

Your Honor.

THE COURT: I'll overrule the objection.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. You can answer.

A. I'm sorry. What was it? Can you repeat the question?

Q. Sure. Yeah. So you had done this sting before. Why --

why now? What triggered you --

A. Right.

Q. -- to do this now?

A. It was -- it was more of just a feeling that, how does

Backpage allow this to -- to happen, because every -- every ad

on there, in my --

MR. EISENBERG: Objection. Objection. He's answered

the question.

THE COURT: Yes, he has. Let's move on.

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BY MR. BERRY:

Q. Did you email them about some specific ads?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. What do you remember about the ads that you

were emailing Backpage about?

A. They -- like specific content of the ad or --

Q. Yeah.

A. They were similar to all the other ads. I know one -- some

of them were just local area, but they were just -- you know,

the photos in them were provocative photos. It was all the

same kind of language as every other ad that we had seen.

Q. And they had photos of females?

A. Yes.

Q. And you said provocative photos, you said?

A. Yes.

Q. How were they dressed?

MR. KESSLER: Objection. Foundation. It sounds like

there was more than one.

THE COURT: Well, I'll overrule.

And I guess, Mr. Berry, you can lay some additional

foundation as to --

MR. BERRY: Sure.

THE COURT: -- how he knows.

MR. BERRY: Let's do that.

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BY MR. BERRY:

Q. So we're talking about -- about four ads --

A. Uh-huh.

Q. -- correct?

A. Yeah.

Q. Were each of these ads similar in nature?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there any critical differences between them from --

from the four ads versus any ads that you posted or that you

observed on Backpage?

A. No.

Q. Just run-of-the-mill escort ads on Backpage?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. So how were the -- were all of the females in

these four ads dressed in a similar fashion?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was that?

A. Dressed -- typically without fully clothed. Showing, you

know, in a bra or underwear. Just showing body parts.

MR. BERRY: Okay. I'm going to show for the witness's

eyes only United States 1606.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. Do you see this, sir?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Do you recognize it?

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A. Yes.

Q. How do you recognize it?

A. It has my email address on it. It's an email that I sent

to Backpage.

Q. Is this -- is this one of several emails?

A. Yes.

Q. And approximately when did this take place?

A. July 16th, 2012.

Q. All right. And I'm going to --

MR. BERRY: Your Honor, I'm going to go through, just

lay the foundation for four exhibits, and then come back and

move them all in, as best I can.

So let me show you -- just for the witness's eyes --

1606a.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. I'm showing 1606a for the witness only. Do you recognize

it?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you recognize it?

A. It's an email that I sent.

Q. To?

A. To Backpage.

Q. Okay. And it's -- you recognize your email address?

A. Yes.

Q. And was this on the same day as the previous exhibit we

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just looked at?

A. Yes.

Q. But it's a different email, different time?

A. Yeah, a few minutes later.

Q. Was it in relation to a different ad?

A. Yes, it was.

MR. BERRY: I'm now showing, for the witness only,

1606b.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. Do you recognize that, Detective?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. What is it?

A. Another email that I sent with my email address, same

time -- same date, again, just a few minutes later with a

different ad.

Q. Okay. Finally, 1606c.

Do you recognize that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And how do you recognize it?

A. It's an email I sent to Backpage with my email address, and

same date and a couple minutes later.

Q. Is that about a different ad?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Do all four of these emails contain similar content and

message that you were trying to convey to Backpage?

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A. Yes.

MR. BERRY: At this time, Your Honor, the United

States moves for the admission of Government's Exhibits 1606,

1606a, 1606b, and 1606c.

MS. BERTRAND: Objection.

Go ahead, Eric.

Foundation. Relevance. Hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. BERTRAND: Hearsay within hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled within each -- with -- I'm

sorry. Overruled, each objection.

They may be admitted. They may be published.

MR. BERRY: Thank you, Your Honor.

(Exhibits 1606, 1606a, 1606b and 1606c admitted into

evidence.)

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. All right. So now -- now we're looking at 1606 now in

evidence.

Is this your email address here at the top?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And what address did you send it to?

A. At abuse@backpage.com.

Q. And what date and time did you send it?

A. July 16th, 2012.

Q. All right. So let's go through this top portion of the

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email. And, actually, we'll just clarify here.

This is just a one-page email; correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Each one of these is just one page; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. So let's start at the top.

If you would, please, read that out to the jury, and

I'll tell you when to stop.

A. "Backpage.com, I'm contacting you regarding a listing that

violated the following terms or use. User conduct: 4(c),

posting any solicitation directly or in 'coded' fashion for any

illegal service exchanging sexual favors for money or other

valuable consideration."

Q. All right. Stop there for just a second.

So you told them that you believe it violated their

terms of use. Explain to the jury what you did to go get these

items under the user conduct and -- and put it in this email.

A. I copied and pasted them directly from Backpage's website.

Q. Okay. And one of -- one of the terms of use that you found

on Backpage, they say is, you can't use coded fashion for any

illegal service; correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Did that strike you as odd considering your investigations?

A. Yes.

Q. Why?

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A. Because I believed every -- every ad on there had some sort

of coded language regarding prostitution.

Q. All right. Move on to the next one, 4(e).

A. "4(e): Posting any material on the site that in any way

constitutes or assists in human trafficking."

Q. Number 5?

A. "Posting any ad for products or services, use or sale of

which is prohibited by any" -- "any law or regulation."

Q. And why did you put that one on there?

A. Because I -- I believed the ads were for prostitution,

which is illegal.

Q. An illegal service in Minnesota; correct?

A. Yep.

Q. And what about 16? What does that one say?

A. "Using the site to engage in or assist another individual

or entity to engage in fraudulent, abusive, manipulative" --

"manipulative or illegal activity."

Q. And explain to the jury why you included that one.

A. Again, because it -- the site assists in prostitution,

which is an illegal activity.

Q. The site itself?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. All right. Now let's move down in the email a

little bit.

What is this section right here that has a -- appears

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to be a hyperlink to a -- a website? What is that?

A. The hyperlink is just a link to the actual ad of one -- of

what we used or found on the prostitution sting, one of the

ads.

Q. And in what part of Backpage was it posted? What city?

A. It's in Minneapolis.

Q. All right. And what section on Backpage?

A. Female escorts.

Q. And can you tell from this link here what the title of the

ad was?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you tell that? Or where is that?

A. Just after the -- the female escorts.

Q. And what did it say?

A. "New-ultimate-pleasure-25."

Q. All right. And then below that you had some more message

for Backpage, and this is kind of the end of it.

Read that part to the jury, where it starts with "this

listing."

A. "This listing under the adult services-escort section of

your site resulted in the arrest of three people for engaging

in prostitution and promoting the prostitution of others.

Although Backpage.com legally defends that they do not support

illegal activity such as prostitution and human trafficking,

any reasonable person knows that every listing in the adult

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services-escort section is an advertisement for illegal

prostitution. Every listing violates each of the above listed

items in the user conduct agreement and should not be allowed

to be posted at all. Please take responsible" -- "or

reasonable steps as a business to ensure these people do not

use Backpage.com as a means to advertise prostitution."

Q. And what were you trying to convey to whoever would listen

at Backpage?

MR. KESSLER: Objection. It's in the email.

THE COURT: Well, I'll sustain.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. Did each of these four emails say basically the same thing?

A. Yes.

Q. What was different about any of the four in this section of

the email?

A. Just the resulted in the arrest of -- depend. Just

different people.

Q. All right.

A. One or two words.

Q. So this one happens to say three people. The other ones

might say one person?

A. Yes.

Q. Do each of them say they were arrested for prostitution?

A. Yes.

Q. And then after that sentence, so starting with "although,"

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is everything the same in those subsequent three emails?

A. Yes.

Q. And they were, each one, conveying the same message?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Have you ever arrested someone for prostitution

in Minnesota based solely on the face of the ad?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Why not?

A. Most of the time we're doing stings, so I'm getting the

actual identification of the person, getting them to come to us

so we can identify them.

Other than that, just building a stronger case for an

actual prosecution, not just an arrest.

Q. Okay. When you've called ads on Backpage, have you ever

encountered prostitutes?

A. Yes.

Q. What percentage of the time?

A. Every time.

Q. 100 percent?

A. Every time.

Q. Have you ever called an ad and it turned out to not be a

prostitute?

A. No.

Q. You are at least generally familiar with the prostitution

statutes in Minnesota; correct?

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A. Yes.

Q. Do you know the difference between the prostitution statute

in Minnesota and the federal crime of promotion of a

prostitution business enterprise?

MR. CAMBRIA: Objection.

MS. BERTRAND: Objection. Calls for a legal

conclusion.

MR. BERRY: I'm asking if he knows the difference.

THE COURT: The question is, "Do you know the

difference between?"

He can answer yes or no if he knows the difference.

THE WITNESS: No.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. You don't know?

A. No.

Q. Do you know -- yes or no, do you know whether Backpage used

something called a strip ad filter?

A. No.

Q. Do you know -- are you aware -- or are you aware whether

Backpage would remove the most obvious sex-act-for-money

language from ads?

MS. BERTRAND: Objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. You can answer.

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A. No.

Q. You don't know?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Are you aware of Backpage's moderation practices?

A. No.

Q. Do you know what The Erotic Review is?

A. Yes.

Q. Explain to the jury what that is.

A. It's a website that -- where prostitution -- prostitutes

could be rated and given, you know, comments about things that

they've done based on searchable features, like phone numbers

or names or things like that.

Q. Did you ever utilize that in connection with your Backpage

investigations?

A. Yes.

Q. Explain that to the jury.

A. If we had an ad that had a phone number or name or

anything, we'd look on The Erotic Review to see if they had any

reviews or any -- any comments about what they've done, more

explicit comments.

Q. Did you ever see anything about The Erotic Review on the

Backpage ads?

A. Not that I could -- not that I could recall.

Q. All right. That you would -- would you go do the

investigation yourself --

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A. Yeah.

Q. -- based on the ad?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. Is that a yes?

Are you saying yes?

A. Yeah. Yeah.

Q. Okay. Are you aware of any relationship between Backpage

and The Erotic Review?

A. No.

Q. Are you aware that Backpage was paying The Erotic Review?

MS. BERTRAND: Objection. Counsel's testifying.

Leading.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: No.

THE COURT: He can --

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. So you're not aware --

A. No.

Q. -- that they were paying?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Are you aware of any relationship between Backpage

and so-called super posters?

A. No.

Q. Are you aware of Backpage's aggregation methods?

A. No.

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Q. Are you aware of whether Backpage took ads from Craigslist

and posted them on Backpage?

A. No.

Q. Are you aware of any meetings between the owners of

Backpage and the people at NCMEC?

MS. BERTRAND: Objection, Your Honor. What's the

foundation for even asking this person these questions? And

they're presuming the -- the truth of the question.

MR. BERRY: I'm actually --

THE COURT: All right.

MR. BERRY: -- laying the foundation by asking if he's

aware.

THE COURT: Let's lay some foundation then, Mr. Berry.

MR. BERRY: Yes, Your Honor. That's what I'm

attempting to do by asking if he's aware, yes or no. And then

if the answer's yes, then we go forward. If we don't, we move

on to the next question.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. Are you aware of any meetings between Backpage and NCMEC?

A. No.

Q. Are you aware of any meetings between Backpage and the

people at Polaris?

A. No.

Q. Are you aware of any meetings between the owners of

Backpage and people at Auburn Theological Seminary?

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A. No.

MR. FEDER: Judge, I'm going to object to this.

They've met with this guy. Clearly he doesn't know this, and

they're trying to summarize their case with someone who

obviously doesn't know the answer.

THE COURT: Is there an objection based on the rule?

MR. FEDER: Yes. Foundation and relevance and

cumulative.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. BERRY: Just one second, Your Honor.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. Did you ever see any of your original changes to the

Backpage ads after sending them emails about every ad being a

prostitution ad?

A. I never checked to see if it -- are you saying if -- were

they still there?

Q. Sure.

A. I don't know if they were taken down or not.

Q. Okay. So let's actually go back to that. That's a good

point.

After you sent these four emails telling them

prostitution, prostitution, prostitution, did you get a

response?

A. Yes.

Q. From Backpage?

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A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall the -- the general substance of that?

A. It was one email response to the -- I don't know which ad

it was, but it said, thank you for letting us know, and -- and

we'll take -- remove these ads.

Q. Okay. We'll remove these ads.

Did they engage you on the substance of what you were

saying about how you're using coded terms, violating the

service, it's all prostitution?

Did they engage you on the substance of that at all?

MS. BERTRAND: Objection. Leading.

MR. EISENBERG: Objection. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. You can answer.

A. No.

Q. Just thanks for letting us know. We took them down.

A. Yeah.

Q. All right. Was Backpage a good resource for you in

investigating prostitution offenses?

MS. BERTRAND: Objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: Yes, it was.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. Were -- was Backpage a good partner to you in law

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enforcement in your investigations?

A. I don't think it was a -- it was not a good partnership

because -- because a partnership would have similar goals, and

I don't think we had similar goals in terms of what we were

trying to do.

Q. And what were those differences?

MR. KESSLER: Objection. That's speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: We were trying to remove or get rid of

prostitution and -- and means to -- to have it, you know, to

operate it, prostitution, and they were allowing it to happen.

MR. FEDER: Objection. Beyond the scope, and improper

opinion.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. Keep going.

THE COURT: I think he's answered the question.

MR. BERRY: All right. I felt like the objection was

inter- -- interrupting him, but, all right. I'll move on.

BY MR. BERRY:

Q. In your prostitution stings, you used the phone to call --

to talk to people, correct, that were either seeking sex for

money or the girls that were advertising it; correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Did you ever consider charging the phone company for

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facilitating the crime of prostitution?

A. No.

Q. Why not?

A. A couple reasons. It -- I mean, it just comes down to

knowledge. I don't think phone companies had the same

knowledge that Backpage did about the extent of the -- the

prostitution. Also, just the -- I guess the -- you know, I

guess the volume. When I say, you know, Backpage, every

listing is -- in my opinion is prostitution. You know, phone

calls, how did -- how do we know what phone calls are -- are

all prostitution?

So there's a lot of non-illegal phone calls.

MR. BERRY: Thank you.

Pass the witness.

THE COURT: Who's examining?

Mr. Kessler, please come forward.

And, Mr. Kessler, we'll go through to 4:30.

MR. KESSLER: Okay. Thank you.

THE COURT: Whenever you're ready.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. KESSLER:

Q. Hello.

A. Hello.

Q. Could you get a little closer to your microphone.

Thank you.

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We've never met, have we?

A. No.

Q. My name is Eric Kessler. I represent -- I'm one of the

attorneys that represents Scott Spear, one of the former owners

of Village Voice.

Do you understand that?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. I want to talk to you a little bit about your work

history in Maplewood.

As I understand, that's a suburb of the Twin Cities;

correct?

A. Correct.

Q. About 40,000 population?

A. Yes.

Q. You worked in the street crimes unit at one point; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. What does that mean, street crimes unit?

A. It's a -- it's more of a proactive investigation unit

within just our -- our jurisdiction, our city.

Q. What did you typically investigate while working in that

unit?

A. My focus on -- during that time was hotel issues and

supervise prostitution-related and narcotics related, which was

kind of all encompassing hotels.

Q. Okay. So a street crimes unit included prostitution?

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A. It can, yes.

Q. And you've testified that you received specialized training

in the investigation of prostitution; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And that occurred in roughly 2011?

A. I believe so, yes.

Q. You said that you've been on the force in Maplewood for

16 years; is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. That would put you joining the force roughly 2007?

A. Correct.

Q. Did you have law enforcement experience before that?

A. No.

Q. Other than working for Maplewood Police Department, have

you been engaged in law enforcement in any other capacity

during your life?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me about that.

A. Prior to that, I was a community service officer with the

Cottage Grove Police Department, which is another suburb of

St. Paul. Just more of a non-licensed law enforcement role.

Q. You mean you were not a sworn officer at that time?

A. No.

Q. Couldn't carry a gun?

A. No.

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Q. Okay. Anything else?

A. Not -- I've done loss prevention of catching shoplifters

before that as well.

Q. So while working for Maplewood -- well, first, when you go

through the Minnesota police officer training, I'm -- and, I'm

sorry. I don't know the exact name of that program. Could you

tell us what that is.

A. Yep. It's the Minnesota Peace Officer Standards and

Training. It's a certification where you have certain class --

classroom credits.

Q. Okay.

A. And it's --

Q. And while you're not expected to be a lawyer, in terms of

knowledge of laws, you are taught about criminal laws; correct?

A. Correct.

Q. You have to be proficient in understanding what constitutes

a violation of one of the state's criminal laws; correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And that includes prostitution?

A. Correct.

Q. And then you go to work for Maplewood, a relatively small

community, but it's close to a couple very large ones; right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you're there a decade and a half.

At some point are you expected to have a pretty good

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handle on the Maplewood city or municipal code?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now, to be clear, Maplewood is governed by, like, a

city council; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And the city council members are elected by the citizens of

Maplewood; correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Yeah. And the city council then carries out the wishes of

its constituents in passing the city code; correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And are you familiar with that code?

A. And, just to be clear, there's -- we have a state statute

and criminal code for city ordinance.

Q. Right. I thought I covered that. We --

A. Right.

Q. We talked about you, before you became a police officer,

when you were in the Minnesota State training --

A. Yeah.

Q. -- for police, that's where you learn about the criminal

laws for the state of Minnesota as a whole; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. But there are individual cities within Minnesota, Maplewood

being one of them, and most of them have city councils that

pass laws pertaining to just those cities; right?

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A. Yes.

Q. And that's the case in Maplewood?

A. Yeah. If -- if I could clarify?

Q. Sure.

A. I know there's -- there's city ordinance. We -- the -- the

city ordinance is not strictly based on what we, you know, try

to -- I mean -- what am I trying to say? It's not the only

thing that we use to enforce crimes.

Q. No. Understood.

A. It's more -- it's more state statute --

Q. Yeah.

A. -- that we do.

Q. I understand.

A. Okay.

Q. I'm just trying to establish that you are familiar with the

Maplewood city code.

A. Yeah. In a -- and if there's -- I mean, I wouldn't say

I've ever memorized it, but I know where to look things up and

find things.

Q. Okay. Fair enough.

In your career at Maplewood, you spent some time

investigating illegal massage parlors; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And, as you've testified, you participated in a number of

sting operations targeting potential prostitutes; correct?

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A. Correct.

Q. Your department would place a fake ad in Backpage. The

officer, usually female, would pose as a prostitute and would

make contact with individuals who responded to the ad.

Is that basically the way it worked?

A. Yes.

Q. When you placed the ads with Backpage, I -- did you ever do

that yourself?

A. One of my partners would usually do -- we'd -- we'd talk

about the ad, but he would be the one -- be the one that would

post them --

Q. Okay.

A. -- physically post them.

Q. So my question is, did you ever place or post an ad on

Backpage yourself?

A. It -- I -- I've physically been there when it's posted,

yes. I haven't pressed the button of --

Q. Okay.

A. -- that.

Q. But you've watched it happen?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And as a person begins to post an ad in, let's

say, the adult services, and be more specific, if you want, the

escort section of adult services, there are some, shall we say,

warnings that you have to go through before you can actually

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place the ad; correct?

A. I don't -- I don't remember --

Q. Well --

A. -- what they were.

Q. -- let me point you to it.

The first thing that you come across is a notification

that this is an adult site?

MR. BERRY: Objection, Your Honor. He just said he

doesn't remember.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. KESSLER: No. He also said he was there.

BY MR. KESSLER:

Q. So let me ask you this again.

Did you watch somebody post these ads?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And did you watch when the age verification warning

came up?

A. I don't -- honestly, I don't remember what was on there

when it was being posted.

Q. You said that every ad for escorts was a prostitution ad;

correct?

A. Correct.

Q. But you never posted an ad yourself; correct?

A. I was there when they were posted.

Q. Did you ever see the age verification warning?

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MR. BERRY: Objection. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. KESSLER:

Q. Did you ever see the terms of use?

A. I've looked them up.

Q. Well, you must have, because they're in your email, all

four of them; correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And so you understand that in order to lawfully -- or at

least within the terms allowed by Backpage.com, you have to

agree to a number of terms of use; correct?

MR. BERRY: Objection. Compound question.

THE COURT: Overruled.

But we'll leave it at that.

Members of the jury, we are at 4:30, so it is time to

adjourn for the afternoon.

I do again remind you of the admonishment. It's very

important not to come to any conclusions, not to conduct any

research, discuss the matter amongst yourselves or anyone else.

Continue to have an open mind and just enjoy the evening. And

we will see you promptly in court at 9:00 a.m. tomorrow. So

have a pleasant evening.

All rise for the jury.

(Jury not present at 4:30 p.m.)

THE COURT: And the witness may step down.

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And I'd like to discuss a couple of issues and

scheduling matters with counsel.

I see that at the time of -- including this gentleman

here, there are roughly 14, 15 government witnesses on the

witness list that are to be called. Today, obviously, we got

through about five. And so if the government continues at this

pace, I suspect we're going to possibly finish if not Friday,

but possibly bleed into Tuesday of next week with the

government's case.

So that prompts me to do this.

MR. RAPP: Judge?

THE COURT: Unless there's some sort of firm

objection, counsel has other matters to attend to, I would like

you to keep your Friday afternoon calendars clear beginning

this Friday at 1:30 to 3:30, roughly 4:00 o'clock, so that we

can do a number of things:

First, I'd like you to start reviewing the current

jury instructions that have been already agreed to, provide to

the Court by Friday any amended jury instructions, if there's

language to be altered or any of that sort of thing.

But, again, I think Friday afternoon you should have

to me any amended -- amendments to the already predetermined

jury instructions.

Now, I suspect one or more of you may want to move for

new instructions, and so I want to build time to hear your

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argument on those Fridays. My Monday is completely booked with

criminal and civil matters.

And so in addition to that, I, once again, reviewed

the forms of verdict. And because I don't want to be caught

behind and keeping the jury waiting, I want the government to

look at its form of verdict. I think there are edits,

substantive edits that need to go into that form of verdict. I

think the descriptions in the current form of verdict are

confusing, not helpful, do not precisely track the counts and

perhaps the exhibits that relate to the counts, and so you

should look at that. Nowhere in the proposed form of verdict

does it mention the states in which the violation is alleged to

have occurred. So do be mindful of that, and also remain --

remove the defendant who is not a party to this case. So do be

mindful of that. And then we will discuss when to have that

ready for the Court's review. We can do that on Friday.

But, in any event, please keep this Friday, next

Friday, November the 3rd, Friday afternoon clear. If you have

a conflict, you can send me a note as to whether or not you're

anticipated in another court, or you can tell me why it is you

cannot be here and present so that we can make sure that the

jury remains on schedule.

Mr. Rapp?

MR. RAPP: Judge, I think we're going to rest on

Thursday.

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THE COURT: Well, there we go.

MR. RAPP: We think we have about five witnesses that

we're going to put on. We're going to end -- we're going to

finish up --

THE COURT: Can you speak into the mic.

MR. RAPP: I thought I was. Sorry about that.

We're going to finish, obviously, with Detective --

Detective Fritze. We are then going to proceed to Jordan

Thurman, who is a substantive count victim. Then we're going

to have Brad Myles. We're going to have John Shehan, which we

noticed a couple of weeks ago. And then depending on flight

scheduling, we're either going to have Dan Hyer, then Megan

Lundstrom, or Megan Lundstrom, Dan Hyer. Then we're going to

be ready to rest.

So we -- we think that could happen as early as

Thursday, so we believe that the defense should have witnesses

in the building on Thursday.

THE COURT: All right. You have been put on notice,

and you will have your witness -- your witnesses identified and

provided to the government three days in advance of Thursday,

which is -- we're -- we're within that time period.

And, so, then, again, it's necessary for us then to

use the afternoon on Friday to address some of these other

miscellaneous matters. And so that's how we will proceed.

MR. LINCENBERG: Your Honor, can I raise a question

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about what Mr. Rapp just indicated?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. LINCENBERG: Thank you.

THE COURT: Question to Mr. Rapp or to me?

MR. LINCENBERG: Well, it's really for both.

We've been advised of about 15 witnesses that were

going to be called this week. We've been spending the entire

weekend and so forth preparing for them. Can I take it from

Mr. Rapp's representation that the individuals who Mr. Rapp did

not just identify are not going to be called?

MR. RAPP: Yes. They will not be called in our

case-in-chief. They -- they may still be called in rebuttal,

depending what the defense puts on.

MR. LINCENBERG: Okay. That's helpful.

I'd like to make one other point, if I may,

Your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. LINCENBERG: This is just for the record with

regard to the current witness, to note our objections with

respect to the Court's not allowing, for example, reference to

Communication Decency Act, Section 230.

What we see is yet another state law law enforcement

person who comes into court, and the prosecution, knowing that

we can't ask these questions, sort of has the witness suggest

that he could have made arrests of Backpage or that Backpage

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was somehow violating the law, even though he full well knows,

based upon all of the court cases, that there was no violation

of state criminal laws in Minnesota, because of the CDA.

THE COURT: Well, I don't think there was any

testimony by this witness that he knows about any court cases

related to the CDA. Of course, the government wasn't permitted

to ask that area of questioning. So there's no evidence in

the -- no testimony in the record as to his knowledge of court

cases relating to the CDA.

MR. LINCENBERG: That's not what we suggested. That's

not what we suggested.

THE COURT: No. That's exactly what you said,

Mr. Lincenberg.

MR. LINCENBERG: No.

THE COURT: I saw it, I heard it, and I see it on the

record. All right.

MR. LINCENBERG: That's not correct.

THE COURT: Well --

MR. LINCENBERG: Can I restate my point to make it

clear if I wasn't clear?

THE COURT: Yes, please.

MR. LINCENBERG: Thank you, Your Honor.

What we said is that this is another state law

enforcement witness who comes into court and makes it seem like

he could have easily gone out and arrested people at Backpage.

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You know, Mr. Berry's questioning, for example, was sort of

preempting other lines of cross that have been used with other

witnesses. Mr. Berry says, now, you didn't make any arrests

based upon the ads, right? Right. Well, it's just because we

were -- we wanted to do further work.

The suggestion that he could have, that these are

clear violations of the laws that he's involved with, when he

knows that's not the case, and the prosecution knows that we're

forbidden from cross-examining to bring out the whole story.

That's my point.

THE COURT: Well, I think what gets lost in these

discussions is I have not been given by the defense, by the

government, anyone else, I've not seen a criminal prosecution

under the CDA. That is a civil tool. I've not seen any case.

You can bring it to my attention if you wish. Research all

night. I -- I'd like to see it. Provide that to me, and then

maybe I'll reevaluate the prior orders. But, as far as I know,

this is not a civil prosecution.

MR. LINCENBERG: Right.

THE COURT: This is a criminal prosecution. This

individual was not, as my -- my understanding of his testimony,

he was investigating prostitution crimes.

MR. LINCENBERG: Under state law.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. LINCENBERG: For which they're immune under the

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CDA.

THE COURT: Well, he wasn't investigating, I don't

think, the CDA.

MR. LINCENBERG: No. It's not a --

THE COURT: Mr. Berry?

MR. LINCENBERG: It's not a matter of him

investigating the CDA. Of course not.

THE COURT: Yes, it is.

MR. RAPP: He --

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Berry?

MR. RAPP: Well, he --

THE COURT: Mr. Rapp.

MR. RAPP: Well, he's conflating the Travel Act, which

is a federal criminal prosecution with state prostitution

offenses. And so he's investigating state prosecution

offenses. There is a carve-out, as the defense knows, for

federal criminal prosecution for violation of the Travel Act.

That's what we're -- that's what this case is.

MR. LINCENBERG: Exactly. He doesn't bring Travel Act

investigations or cases. He's a state law prosecutor. They're

using him to come in and talk about how Backpage -- how he had

jurisdiction and he's doing these investigations because

Backpage folks are violating these laws, when he knows that the

CDA makes all of our clients immune under the state of

Minnesota laws. But we can't -- we can't counter that --

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THE COURT: Well, why don't you --

MR. LINCENBERG: -- because of the Court's ruling.

THE COURT: -- give me your line of questioning for

this witness in that category, and I'll evaluate it and see

based on -- and I'll look at his testimony.

MR. LINCENBERG: Do you want me to give it to --

THE COURT: But --

MR. LINCENBERG: -- you now or --

THE COURT: No. I want you to give it to me in

written form.

MR. LINCENBERG: When? Overnight? Today.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. LINCENBERG: Okay.

THE COURT: I mean, the witness is testifying. He's

on the stand. He's on cross-examination.

And while I'm on the point, those of you who have two

counsel, the person who makes the objection is the person who

is taking the witness.

So, Mr. Feder, try to refrain from objecting when it

was Mr. Kessler's witness. Mr. Kessler and you were objecting

on the same witness. So let's make sure that that doesn't

happen again.

I see Mr. Cambria waiting patiently. So you wish to

make a record of some sort?

MR. CAMBRIA: No. I wish to ask a question.

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Our -- is the suggestion here that the defense is

supposed to have witnesses ready this Thursday or a week from

Thursday?

THE COURT: This Thursday. You just heard Mr. Rapp

say they might rest on Thursday.

MR. CAMBRIA: Well, the problem is, using this Friday,

that was one of the days that I had witnesses set up for me to

prepare. So I do have a conflict with being in court on

Friday.

THE COURT: Well, as you know, we have trial on Friday

morning.

MR. CAMBRIA: Just on the morning.

THE COURT: Yes. And so you can delay your

preparation of your witnesses, as we all do, on the weekends.

I've been working on the weekends. Many of you have as well.

So that's what we're going to do. We're not going to

waste any of the jury's time. We're going to maximize the use

of what we have. We only have, as I noted, on this accelerated

schedule now possibly only two Fridays to work with.

Mr. Panchapakesan?

MR. PANCHAPAKESAN: Good afternoon, Your Honor. I had

a quick question on the jury instructions.

So there's the preliminary ones the Court gave at the

outset of the case. I have, I think, a July 20th, 2023, draft

that I think was circulated in hard copy. And I just want to

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make sure we're working off the same copy. This one is, I

think, 62 pages. As to some of the instructions, the Court, I

think, kept the objection in, and so I just want to make sure

I -- we know what we're dealing with.

THE COURT: I will double-check, but I thought we had

gone over that at a subsequent final pretrial conference. And

so there might be a different version that's beyond that. And

I'll double-check that, and I'll have my law clerk send you a

note so that you can begin reviewing that.

MR. PANCHAPAKESAN: Okay. Thank you.

THE COURT: All right. Anything further from the

government?

MR. RAPP: Oh, well, obviously we'd like the -- the

defense witnesses on -- in that same vein with these witnesses,

we've asked repeatedly -- of course there's scheduling orders

in this regard, but we've asked repeatedly for 26.2 statements

of these witnesses. We have never gotten a confirmation, a

definitive confirmation from the defense that they have

disclosed those 26.2 statements for every, you know, now

150 witnesses.

And so we've been sending them emails, giving them

case law, giving them examples of -- of judges in this district

who have compelled the defense to disclose those statements.

We have not got a confirmation of that. And so not only would

we like the witnesses that they should be prepared to put on

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the stand this week, we also would like them to disclose their

26.2 statements that they have been obligated to do so for the

last two or three years based upon scheduling orders. So ...

THE COURT: All right. Well, that's not an

unreasonable request.

Who's responsible for the witnesses?

MR. LINCENBERG: I -- I'm not here --

THE COURT: I would assume that each of you are.

MR. LINCENBERG: Yeah. I'm here to just note the

unfairness of what is happening here, where the government gave

us a list of 15 witnesses, which would have clearly taken us

through the week, and they decide to wait until Tuesday at

night to tell us: You know what? We may be ending Thursday.

You have to get your witnesses here Friday morning. We're only

going to call seven of the 15 that -- that we said.

So that the Court, which I understand, wants to keep

the trial moving, but now it puts the -- the defense, like

Mr. Cambria, who has been anticipating, based upon the

representations from -- from the prosecution, that those

witnesses would become no -- be coming no earlier than next

week.

THE COURT: Well, your statement is noted, but I will

say that on balance there has been a lack of cooperation

amongst the parties. Everything is a fight.

On Friday at 4:30, Mr. Feder all of a sudden says

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everybody's left town, we don't know who our witnesses are,

compelling me to direct you to at least identify the first

five. What I received in response was not a listing on

Saturday, as I ordered, but a filing early this week saying:

We don't intend to call these seven odd witnesses, and we

possibly may call these five city ordinance people.

So I'm operating on the assumption that at the very

least those people that you've identified, in Mr. Cambria's

filing earlier this week, are going to be the witnesses you're

going to call. And you better have your witnesses available to

testify if the government rests on Thursday.

I don't think any of us anticipated that we would get

through five witnesses today. I certainly didn't.

And so that has been my observation.

Provide the statements that are necessary. Provide

the identity of the witnesses that you intend to call this

week. Make yourselves available from 1:30 to 4:00 o'clock on

Friday to address these other matters. And that's all I'm

asking.

MR. BERRY: Your Honor, could you please give the

defense a time by which they need to file these -- or notify us

of these 26.2 statements and the exhibits for Thursday?

THE COURT: Wednesday at 4:00 o'clock.

I think the fact that this is the retrial should have

generated that information and the production of it by now.

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And so is there anything further from the government?

MR. RAPP: Just the last -- our last point is we

actually have been researching some of these witnesses, and we

have found that many of these witnesses were surprised to hear

they were defense witnesses in this case. Many of them do not

have subpoenas. For sure the federal agent witnesses don't

even have subpoenas. And there's -- of course there's the --

the Touhy regulations that need to be complied with. So, you

know, we're a little bit perplexed about who it is the defense

is intending to call.

To the extent that they have a question about whether

they are obligated to disclose 26.2 statements and they have

some statements of these witnesses in their possession, we ask

that they bring them to court so there's not a delay, so they

don't put a witness on the stand and our first question is, did

you give statements to the defense in the form of emails or

whatever, and they say, yeah, we did; and the defense says,

well, we didn't think we were obligated to bring -- to disclose

them, and we don't have them in court.

We would ask that they bring them in court so that if

there is a -- a dispute over it, the Court can look at them in

camera so there's not a delay in -- and that we are at a

disadvantage in our cross-examination.

THE COURT: I've just ordered the production of those

statements by tomorrow -- excuse me -- Wednesday -- well, I

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guess that's tomorrow -- Wednesday at 4:00 for the first

witnesses to be called. Beyond that, you should be starting to

prepare those additional statements. Again, they're long

overdue.

And I am not yet at the point where I think about

sanctions for not complying with your obligations. And I say

that only because the government's case has moved rapidly along

these last two weeks. You've produced a witness list of 156.

They produced a witness list of almost 50. And we've gone

through a number of those individuals today and last week. But

that's the nature of trial work.

Be prepared. Be ready. Block out that time so we can

get these other additional important matters done and done

correctly.

And we will stand in recess.

(Proceedings adjourn at 4:51 p.m.)

---oOo---

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C E R T I F I C A T E

I, CATHY J. TAYLOR, do hereby certify that I am duly

appointed and qualified to act as Official Court Reporter for

the United States District Court for the District of Arizona.

I FURTHER CERTIFY that the foregoing pages constitute

a full, true, and accurate transcript of all of that portion of

the proceedings contained herein, had in the above-entitled

cause on the date specified therein, and that said transcript

was prepared under my direction and control.

DATED at Phoenix, Arizona, this 17th day of October,

2023.

/s/Cathy J. Taylor

Cathy J. Taylor, RMR, CRR, CRC

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