UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 

DISTRICT OF ARIZONA 

Mikkel Jordahl; Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, 

P.C., 

 Plaintiffs, 

vs. 

Mark Brnovich, Arizona Attorney General; 

Jim Driscoll, Coconino County Sheriff; 

Matt Ryan, Coconino County Board of 

Supervisors Chair; Lena Fowler, Coconino 

County Board of Supervisors Vice Chair; 

Elizabeth Archuleta Coconino County 

Board of Supervisors Member; Art 

Babbott, Coconino County Board of 

Supervisors Member; Jim Parks, Coconino 

County Board of Supervisors Member; 

Sarah Benatar, Coconino County Treasurer, 

all in their official capacities, 

 Defendants.

Case No: 3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH 

 

DECLARATION OF DREW C. ENSIGN 

I, Drew C. Ensign, declare as follows: 

1. I am an attorney licensed to practice law in Arizona, California, and the 

District of Columbia. I am an attorney with the Arizona Office of the Attorney General, 

and represent Defendant Mark Brnovich in his official capacity as Attorney General and 

Proposed Intervenor-Defendant State of Arizona. 
2 

2. Attached hereto as Exhibit A is a copy of the transcript from the Rule 

30(b)(6) deposition of Plaintiff Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, P.C., which was conducted on 

January 8, 2018. 

3. Attached hereto as Exhibit B is a copy of errata to the transcript of the 

deposition. 

4. Attached hereto as Exhibit C is a portions of the website 

BDSMovement.net, which lists and explains what companies the organization is 

boycotting. See Know what to boycott, BDSmovement.net, https://bdsmovement.net/getinvolved/what-to-boycott (last visited Jan. 17, 2018) (“The Palestinian BDS National 

Committee (BNC) calls for a boycott of all Israeli products”). 

5. Attached hereto as Exhibit D is a copy of the article “US Scholars’ Group 

Votes in Favor of Academic Boycott of Israel.” See Maria Shwayder, US Scholars’ 

Group Votes in Favor of Academic Boycott of Israel, Jerusalem Post (December 16, 

2013), available at http://www.jpost.com/International/US-scholars-group-votes-infavor-of-academic-boycott-of-Israel-335178. 

6. Attached hereto as Exhibit E is a copy of the article “Palestinians hold local 

elections in West Bank but not Gaza” from Reuters which indicates that the President of 

the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, was 12 years into what was intended to be a 

4 year term in 2017. See Palestinians hold local elections in West Bank but not Gaza, 

Reuters (May 13, 2017), available at https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinianspolitics-election/palestinians-hold-local-elections-in-west-bank-but-not-gazaidUSKBN189066. 
3 

7. Attached hereto as Exhibit F is a copy of Congressional Research Service 

report “Taylor Force Act: Palestinian Terrorism-Related Payments and U.S. Aid” which 

indicates that the Palestinian Authority has promulgated laws for the compensation of 

“martyrs.” See Congressional Research Service, IN10761, Taylor Force Act: Palstenian 

Terrorism-Related Payments and U.S. Aid (December 12, 2017). 

8. Attached hereto as Exhibit G is a copy of the U.S. State Department’s list 

of Foreign Terrorist Organizations. See Foreign Terrorist Organizations, U.S. 

Department of State, https://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/other/des/123085.htm (last visited 

January 18, 2018). 

9. Attached hereto as Exhibit H is a copy of the article “Palestinians form new 

unity government that includes Hamas” from the Washington Post. See Palestinians form 

new unity government that includes Hamas, Washington Post (June 2, 2014), available at 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/palestinians-form-new-unitygovernment-including-hamas/2014/06/02/c681d5c6-ea46-11e3-9f5c9075d5508f0a_story.html?utm_term=.785bf46359c6. 

10. Attached hereto as Exhibit I is the roll call vote in the Arizona House of 

Representatives for the Act. 

11. Attached hereto as Exhibit J is the roll call vote in the Arizona Senate for 

the Act. 

 
4 

I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct, to the best of my 

knowledge, and that this declaration was issued on January 18, 2018, in Phoenix, 

Arizona. 

s/ Drew C. Ensign 

Drew C. Ensign 
Exhibit A 
Coash & Coash, Inc.

602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com

30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC - January 8, 2018

Mikkel Jordahl

 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

 DISTRICT OF ARIZONA

 )

 Mikkel Jordahl; Mikkel (Mik) )

 Jordahl, P.C., )

 )

 Plaintiffs, )

 )

 vs. ) Case No.:

 ) 3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

 Mark Brnovich, Arizona )

 Attorney General; Jim )

 Driscoll, Coconino County )

 Sheriff; Matt Ryan, Coconino )

 County Board of Supervisors )

 Chair; Lena Fowler, Coconino )

 County Board of Supervisors )

 Vice Chair; Elizabeth )

 Archuleta, Coconino County )

 Board of Supervisors Member; )

 Art Babbott, Coconino County )

 Board of Supervisors Member; )

 Jim Parks, Coconino County )

 Board of Supervisors Member; )

 Sarah Benatar, Coconino )

 County Treasurer, all in )

 their official capacities, )

 )

 Defendants. )

 _______________________________)

 30(b)(6) DEPOSITION OF MIKKEL (MIK) JORDAHL, P.C.,

 BY MIKKEL JORDAHL

 Phoenix, Arizona

 January 8, 2018

 Prepared by:

 Gerard T. Coash, RPR, RMR

 Certified Reporter

 Certification No. 50503
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

Page 2

 1 I N D E X

 2 WITNESS PAGE

 3 MIKKEL (MIK) JORDAHL

 4 Examination by Mr. Ensign 5

 5 Examination by Ms. Brody 157

 6 Further Examination by Mr. Ensign 176

 7

 8

 9 EXHIBITS MARKED 10 EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION PAGE 11

 Exhibit 1 Defendant Brnovich's Amended Notice 7

12 of Deposition Pursuant to Fed. R.

 Civ. P. 30(b)(6)

13

 Exhibit 2 Declaration of Mikkel Jordahl 61

14 CV17-08263

15 Exhibit 3 Complaint for Declaratory and 119

 Injunctive Relief 16

 Exhibit 4 Email string ending from Matthew 163 17 Figueroa to Mikkel Jordahl dated

 12-8-17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 3

 1 30(b)(6) DEPOSITION OF MIKKEL (MIK) JORDAHL, P.C.,

 2 BY MIKKEL JORDAHL

 3 was taken on January 8, 2018, commencing at 9:06 a.m., at

 4 the Offices of the Arizona Attorney General, 2005 North

 5 Central Avenue, Phoenix, Arizona, before Gerard T. Coash,

 6 a Certified Reporter in the State of Arizona.

 7

 8

 9 * * *

10 APPEARANCES:

11 For the Plaintiffs:

 ACLU FOUNDATION OF ARIZONA

12 By: Kathleen E. Brody, Esq.

 3707 North 7th Street

13 Suite 235

 Phoenix, Arizona 85014

14 602-650-1854

 kbrody@acluaz.org 15

 and

16

 ACLU FOUNDATION, SPEECH, PRIVACY & TECHNOLOGY

17 PROJECT

 By: Brian Hauss, Esq. (Telephonic) 18 Vera Eidelman, Esq. (Telephonic)

 125 Broad Street

19 18th Floor

 New York, New York 10004

20 212-549-2500

 bhauss@aclu.org 21 veidelman@aclu.org

22

23

24

25

Page 4

 1 For the Defendant Mark Brnovich in his official

 capacity as Attorney General: 2 OFFICE OF THE ARIZONA ATTORNEY GENERAL

 By: Drew C. Ensign, Esq. 3 Oramel H. (O.H.) Skinner, Esq.

 Brunn (Beau) W. Roysden III, Esq. 4 2005 North Central Avenue

 Phoenix, Arizona 85004

 5 602-542-5200

 drew.ensign@azag.gov 6 o.h.skinner@azag.gov

 beau.roysden@azag.gov 7

 Also present: Jacob Richards 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

09:06:33-09:07:13 Page 5

 1 (Mr. Roysden is not yet present.)

 2

 3 MIKKEL (MIK) JORDAHL,

 4 the witness herein, having been first duly sworn by the

 5 Certified Reporter, was examined and testified as follows:

 6

 7 EXAMINATION

 8 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

 9 Q. Could you please state and spell your full name

10 for the record?

11 A. Yeah, my full name is Mikkel Steen Jordahl,

12 Mikkel is spelled M-i-k-k-e-l, middle name Steen,

13 S-t-e-e-n, last name Jordahl, J-o-r-d-a-h-l. I go by Mik,

14 M-i-k.

15 Q. Have you ever been deposed in a civil case

16 before?

17 A. I believe I was deposed on one occasion many

18 years ago.

19 Q. Okay. And what kind of case was that?

20 A. It was a civil rights case in which I was a

21 witness as a law student. It was against the Tucson

22 Police Department.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. And it was regarding their treatment of homeless

25 people.

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Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

09:07:20-09:08:03 Page 6

 1 Q. Okay. And you are a licensed lawyer, correct?

 2 A. Yes.

 3 Q. And you're familiar with the standard ground

 4 rules for depositions. Is that correct?

 5 A. I should be, and I think I am.

 6 Q. Excellent.

 7 One ground rule I'd like to emphasize is

 8 that if you don't understand a question, please ask me to

 9 clarify. If you answer a question, I'll assume that you

10 understood it. Is that okay?

11 A. Sure.

12 Q. Okay. Also, you can take a break whenever you'd

13 like. But if a question is pending, I'd like you to

14 finish answering that, and then we can take a break after

15 that, if that works.

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. Is there any reason that you can't give your best

18 testimony today?

19 A. I don't believe so.

20 Q. Are there any medication, other substances you're

21 under?

22 A. Just caffeine.

23 Q. Fair enough. And you are a plaintiff in the

24 litigation in the United States District Court titled

25 Jordahl, et al. v. Brnovich, et al., captioned 17-cv-8263?

09:08:24-09:09:33 Page 7

 1 A. Yes, both in an individual capacity and as my law

 2 firm's.

 3 Q. Great. And so as you just said, your company,

 4 the PC, is a plaintiff in this litigation as well?

 5 A. Yes.

 6 Q. And I can refer to that as your PC going forward,

 7 if that works?

 8 A. Sure.

 9 Q. You understand that your deposition relates to

10 this case, correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I'm handing you what I'd like to have marked as

13 Exhibit 1.

14 (Deposition Exhibit 1 was marked for

15 identification.)

16 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

17 Q. Do you recognize this document?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What is it?

20 A. It's the Defendant Brnovich's Amended Notice of

21 Deposition Pursuant to the Federal Rule of a Civil

22 Procedure 30(b)(6).

23 Q. And that -- this document is why you're here

24 today, correct?

25 A. Yes.

09:09:41-09:10:39 Page 8

 1 Q. You are the CEO and sole director of your PC. Is

 2 that correct?

 3 A. Yes.

 4 Q. Because you're the CEO and sole officer and

 5 director, is it fair to say that the PC -- the PC

 6 possesses all knowledge that you do?

 7 A. Yes.

 8 Q. Throughout the rest of this deposition, when I

 9 refer to "you," that will mean your PC, unless I indicate

10 otherwise or context makes clear that it's you in your

11 personal capacity.

12 A. Okay.

13 Q. If you're ever unclear about that, please ask me

14 to clarify.

15 A. Sure.

16 Q. What did you do to prepare for this deposition

17 today?

18 A. I reviewed everything that I have filed. I have

19 met with my attorneys. And I have reviewed background

20 information on boycott and whatnot that's readily

21 available online.

22 Q. Is there anything else you did to prepare today?

23 A. I don't think so.

24 Q. Okay. About how long did you spend preparing?

25 A. Probably two, three hours.

09:11:03-09:12:08 Page 9

 1 Q. So could you take a look at the topic 1a on the

 2 exhibit?

 3 A. Sure.

 4 Q. And how long -- what did you do to prepare to

 5 address topic 1a?

 6 A. I didn't so much focus on my organizational

 7 structure. I mean, I recall all that information.

 8 Q. Okay. And about how long did you spend preparing

 9 for that?

10 A. I don't think I prepared at all in terms of

11 that subsection "a."

12 Q. In terms of topic 1b, what did you do to prepare

13 for that one?

14 A. I believe I reviewed the addendum that I was

15 asked to sign again, and that took just a matter of a few

16 minutes.

17 Q. Okay. Is there anything else that you recall

18 doing to prepare for that topic?

19 A. Let me look here.

20 I don't think so.

21 Q. Okay. So how about topic 1c? So what did you do

22 to prepare for that one?

23 A. Nothing. I have no business dealing with folks

24 under that category.

25 Q. Okay. And in terms of topic 1d, what did you do

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Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

09:12:27-09:13:45 Page 10

 1 to prepare for that topic?

 2 A. Well, I did review the companies that I'm in

 3 favor of boycotting and their activities, which would

 4 include companies like Hewlett-Packard, Caterpillar,

 5 Airbnb, companies like that that are on the boycott list

 6 and the reasons why -- why they should be boycotted in my

 7 opinion. And I probably spent an hour on that.

 8 Q. And what documents did you review to prepare for

 9 that?

10 A. Well, I reviewed -- let's see, the EL- --

11 Evangelical Lutheran Church of America's position on Peace

12 Not Walls and various other literature that the Lutherans

13 have produced. Also, I reviewed Jewish Voice for Peace,

14 of which I'm a member, and looked at the boycott

15 divestment sanctions issues that they're promoting. And

16 I've also looked at other sources. I looked at -- this

17 morning I reviewed Haaretz, an Israeli left-leaning

18 newspaper. I have looked at other sources, one was

19 Mondoweiss, which is an electronic website that

20 specializes in that area. I think I have reviewed -- what

21 is it? There's a group called Electronic Intifada, which

22 I've looked at.

23 Q. Are there any other groups -- documents that you

24 reviewed?

25 A. I have looked at -- there is an Arizona Palestine

09:14:13-09:15:15 Page 11

 1 solidarity network. I know the folks that are involved

 2 there in Tucson; I've reviewed their website. I've

 3 reviewed some literature on BDS. I've certainly looked at

 4 the ACLU website and their involvement in opposing the

 5 anti-Israel boycott act, which would imprison people for

 6 participating in boycotts. So . . .

 7 Q. Okay. And can you think of any other materials

 8 you think you've reviewed?

 9 A. There are many other sources. I can't think

10 of -- you know, I couldn't list them all, but just

11 mainstream press, New York Times. I read every day and

12 certainly areas there.

13 Q. Are there any particular documents that you, you

14 know, view as particularly useful in determining what

15 companies you boycott?

16 A. I'm not sure I could mention any particular

17 document.

18 Q. Then turning to topic 1e, what did you do to

19 prepare for -- to discuss that topic?

20 A. Well, I reviewed the allegations in the

21 complaint. I reviewed my statement of facts -- or

22 whatever that was called, my affidavit, and I prepared

23 with my attorneys.

24 Q. Okay. And about how long did that -- did you

25 prepare for that?

09:15:39-09:17:04 Page 12

 1 A. I'd say probably at least two hours.

 2 Q. Okay. And does that kind of capture topic 1f as

 3 well?

 4 A. Yes.

 5 Q. Have you talked about this deposition with

 6 anyone?

 7 A. I've mentioned to my wife that -- I mean, that's

 8 why we're here. So . . .

 9 Q. Yeah.

10 A. And I have mentioned to my attorneys --

11 obviously, they know that. I have mentioned to folks at

12 Jewish Voice for Peace and some of my Tucson connections

13 in the area, yes.

14 Q. Okay. And sorry, who -- who would that be?

15 A. Well, it would be the Jewish Voice for Peace

16 folks, Abby Okrent; also Mohyeddin Abdulaziz, who is part

17 of the Arizona BDS network; also Thabet Khalidi, who is a

18 lawyer in Tucson; and also my son, Laiken Jordahl; my

19 wife, Sheila Nair, and that's probably about it.

20 Q. Okay. Okay. And can you think of anyone else

21 that you talked to?

22 A. I think I have mentioned to a relative or two on

23 the West Coast, my uncle and my cousin.

24 Q. Okay. And anyone else?

25 A. Do you need their names?

09:17:21-09:18:14 Page 13

 1 Q. Sure.

 2 A. Well, Eric Skindrud, S-k-i-n-d-r-u-d, Michael

 3 Skindrud, same last name. I think that's about it.

 4 Q. And can you think of anyone else?

 5 A. Not offhand. I mean, I may have shared that, I

 6 just don't -- I'm not sure. So . . .

 7 Q. So I'd like to turn to the -- your personal

 8 boycotts.

 9 A. Sure.

10 Q. So many of the "yous" in this section will be you

11 in your personal capacity. But to the extent you're ever

12 unclear, please let me know.

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. Are you currently engaged in any boycotts in your

15 personal capacity?

16 A. Yes. I would -- as a human being, not as a

17 corporation, you know, I would be -- I am boycotting, and

18 I urge the boycott -- of Hewlett-Packard, certainly

19 Caterpillar, and also Airbnb because they are businesses

20 that are involved in perpetuating the occupation of the

21 West Bank.

22 Q. Are you currently engaged in -- and don't worry

23 about the companies right now -- but are there any other

24 boycotts that you're engaged in right now, other than

25 the -- other than the boycott at issue in this suit?

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Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

09:18:30-09:19:38 Page 14

 1 A. I certainly -- I mean, just as a moral political

 2 belief, I would not travel to Egypt at this time because

 3 of the gross human rights abuses that are there.

 4 Q. Okay.

 5 A. And of course, there are many other places too,

 6 you know, like Myanmar, Syria, et cetera.

 7 Q. Okay. And sorry, can you give -- can you give

 8 those examples -- or, sorry -- can you list the -- those

 9 countries that you wouldn't travel to?

10 A. Well -- well, I wouldn't go to Syria, probably

11 mostly for safety reasons.

12 Q. Yeah.

13 A. But also not want to spend money to support the

14 Assad regime. Egypt is one, of course, and I fully

15 support the reduction of U.S. military aid to Egypt, which

16 has occurred, and I think the same should happen to Israel

17 until it evacuates from the West Bank. Probably Myanmar

18 at this time, I wouldn't go there because of the Rohingya

19 ethnic cleansing. I don't want to support their colonies.

20 I'm sure there are others I could think of,

21 but -- you know, if you want to -- I probably won't be

22 going to Crimea.

23 Q. Okay. Are there any domestic boycotts that

24 you're currently engaged in?

25 A. Other than those companies involved in this

09:19:45-09:21:10 Page 15

 1 issue, no.

 2 Q. Okay.

 3 A. I don't believe so.

 4 Q. Why don't we take a minute and -- besides the

 5 countries you've listed or areas, can you give me more

 6 examples where you wouldn't -- you wouldn't travel there

 7 or you're engaged in a boycott of that country?

 8 A. Actually, let me backtrack. I would probably not

 9 knowingly spend money on Trump-owned family businesses

10 because of my own personal political beliefs.

11 Q. Okay. Can you think of any other domestic

12 boycotts that you'd be engaged in?

13 A. I can't.

14 Q. Okay. So in terms of what you've spoken about

15 with Egypt, would you consider your unwillingness to

16 travel there to be a boycott?

17 A. I would, yeah.

18 Q. Okay. And same with Myanmar?

19 A. Yes. I mean, it's not in response to a call for

20 a boycott or whatever, but it is my own personal belief

21 because I don't want to support -- have any way of

22 supporting those governments.

23 Q. Okay. So you listed a couple companies -- I

24 believe HP, Airbnb, and Caterpillar -- as companies that

25 you're engaged in a boycott of. Can you think of any

09:21:20-09:22:27 Page 16

 1 other companies that you are boycotting?

 2 A. In -- in this -- the context of this lawsuit?

 3 Q. That's correct.

 4 A. Yeah. Well, one would be -- I believe it's --

 5 SodaStream is another company that produces bottled water

 6 and it was on West Bank and it was using -- it was an

 7 Israeli-owned company on the West Bank.

 8 Q. Okay. Can you think of any other companies?

 9 A. Those are the ones that I would target. There

10 are -- sometimes you go into, like, Safeway, pick out a

11 bottle of wine, and you will see wines listed from -- they

12 say it's from Israel, but it turns out they're from

13 settlements on the West Bank and so they're mislabeled,

14 and I would not buy those.

15 Q. Okay. So you wouldn't buy wines that were made

16 and grown in Israel or --

17 A. No, I'm not saying that. I would not buy wines

18 that were produced and -- from vineyards or whatever -- on

19 the illegal settlements in the West Bank --

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. -- and mislabeled as a product of Israel.

22 Q. Okay. Would you purchase wine grown by

23 Palestinians in those areas?

24 A. I've never had that opportunity, so I don't know.

25 Q. Okay. And backtracking for just a little bit.

09:22:44-09:23:44 Page 17

 1 In terms of what you've stated with regards to Egypt and

 2 Myanmar, would your boycott extend beyond not traveling

 3 there or are there any other -- are there any products

 4 from those companies that you're engaged in a boycott of?

 5 A. I'm not specifically aware of any products that

 6 I've seen that have been labeled from either of those

 7 countries, so I'm not sure. I'm not sure. But I

 8 certainly would not travel to those places.

 9 Q. Okay. Have you ever declined to buy a product

10 from Egypt?

11 A. I have not seen a product from Egypt, that I'm

12 aware of, in the last several years. So --

13 Q. Okay. So you haven't -- you haven't --

14 A. I haven't had that opportunity.

15 Q. And same with respect to Myanmar?

16 A. Yeah. I mean, Myanmar, how often do we see

17 products in our consumer shelves, whatever -- I haven't

18 seen one, so I don't know. And I don't know. I don't

19 know.

20 Q. And just as a clarification, so Myanmar is often

21 known as Burma as well?

22 A. Right. Yes.

23 Q. All right. And you had provided a list of

24 companies that you're boycotting and -- including HP and

25 SodaStream, for example. Can you think of any other

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Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

09:24:04-09:24:57 Page 18

 1 companies that you're --

 2 A. Well, I mentioned, you know, wines produced on

 3 the West Bank by colonies. They're Israeli colonies. And

 4 SodaStream I mentioned as well.

 5 I have no opportunity to buy a Caterpillar

 6 tractor so I'm not sure I'm actively doing it. But if I

 7 was asked to buy a Caterpillar tractor, I'd probably

 8 decline for a variety of reasons, one of which would be

 9 political.

10 Q. Okay. And are there any other companies that you

11 can think of that you're boycotting?

12 A. I'm not aware -- those are the ones that I'm

13 focused on that I've mentioned, so -- I'm sure there are

14 others that -- I know a lot of the -- the illegal Israeli

15 settlements on the West Bank will export a lot of fruits

16 and vegetables, things like that, but I don't think they

17 reach our American markets.

18 Q. Okay. So with respect to produce made in either

19 Israel or what you view to be Palestinian lands, what

20 would you be boycotting?

21 A. Well, you're asking a hypothetical question

22 because I haven't had that opportunity.

23 Q. Right.

24 A. But if they were specifically in the -- what the

25 international community recognizes as illegal Israeli

09:25:07-09:26:09 Page 19

 1 settlements on the West Bank, I would not buy them.

 2 Q. Okay.

 3 A. If they were produced in Israel itself, I may

 4 well buy them.

 5 Q. Okay. So if it was produced in Israel, for

 6 example, and it's a pre-1967 borders, you -- you would buy

 7 it?

 8 A. Sure, if it -- if it looked like good produce, of

 9 course, yeah.

10 Q. Okay. And when you referenced "international

11 community," what did you mean by that term?

12 A. Well, I mean basically the whole world except for

13 the U.S.. countries -- almost the whole world, I mean,

14 look at -- whether it's Europe, Middle East, all -- all

15 around the world basically.

16 Q. Okay. Are there particular countries or

17 institutions you're referring to or --

18 A. Well, I mean, you can just look at the recent UN

19 vote on -- you know, the U.S. moving its embassy to

20 Jerusalem, it was something like -- I think the U.S. was

21 only joined by countries like Togo and whatnot, very small

22 countries, nine countries, the rest either abstained or

23 voted against the U.S..

24 But I think almost every country on Earth

25 views colonization -- I mean, it violates international

09:26:28-09:27:49 Page 20

 1 law to colonize and occupy a territory, so -- and almost

 2 every country in the world recognizes that law. So . . .

 3 Q. Okay. So aside from boycotting the companies

 4 we've talked about and the produce that we've talked

 5 about, what other activities does your boycott involve?

 6 A. I'm not sure it involves other activities,

 7 but it -- it certainly involves -- I'm networking with

 8 other people involved in the boycott movement. I've a

 9 been asked to speak about it, and it also involves writing

10 and objecting to those companies. It involves -- recently

11 wrote an op-ed piece on the issue.

12 Q. In terms of writing to those companies, what --

13 what have you written to them?

14 A. Well, I've just joined in on -- what do you call

15 it? I've signed my name to petitions that have been sent

16 forward to those companies.

17 Q. Okay. And can you think of which companies that

18 you've signed petitions?

19 A. Sure. One was Hewlett-Packard. Another was

20 Airbnb. I don't believe I did that with Caterpillar.

21 Q. Okay. And can you think of any other companies

22 that you've done that for?

23 A. I don't -- I don't think so, on this issue, no.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. And I've written my legislators, both on Israel

09:28:05-09:29:11 Page 21

 1 and Egypt, objecting to what U.S. policy is.

 2 Q. And which legislators?

 3 A. Well, both of our senators.

 4 Q. Okay. And anyone else?

 5 A. I have -- yeah, talked to my own representative.

 6 And I'm blocking on his name right now, a Democrat --

 7 Q. Okay. But that --

 8 A. -- on the issue.

 9 Q. -- that's U.S. congressional representative?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And for those petitions that you signed, who

12 drafted them?

13 A. I think one was Jewish Voice for Peace -- I think

14 perhaps both of them.

15 Q. So your boycott consists of boycotting companies,

16 produce, networking, writing to companies, drafting an

17 op-ed. Is there anything else that it consists of?

18 A. I think that takes care of most of it. I mean,

19 maybe I'm leaving something out, but I think that takes

20 care of it.

21 Q. Okay. You can't think of anything else right

22 now?

23 A. Right offhand, no.

24 Q. Okay. Do you have any plans to change the scope

25 of your boycott in the future?

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Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

09:29:36-09:30:33 Page 22

 1 A. Yes. When -- when we win this lawsuit -- and I'm

 2 being presumptuous here -- I want my firm to assist in

 3 promoting the boycott issues and doing -- my first check

 4 will be written to Jewish Voice for Peace from my firm

 5 and -- which will support things like their annual float

 6 in the Tucson All Souls parade and other boycott

 7 activities.

 8 Q. Okay.

 9 A. And perhaps also providing clerical assistance to

10 those efforts.

11 Q. We'll turn to your firm in a bit.

12 In terms of your personal boycott, do you

13 have any plans to change the scope of it?

14 A. Well, I think after -- yes, after my recent trip

15 to Palestine and Israel last spring, I mean, it really

16 impacted me very much. And so -- and that's really made

17 me resolve to end the suppression of speech in this area,

18 which is what the statute is about, I think, is

19 suppressing speech. And so I want to speak out more about

20 it, about the issues.

21 Q. In terms of companies or products that you're

22 boycotting, do you have any plans to change that?

23 A. Well, I'll change it if they change their

24 practices.

25 Q. Sure.

09:30:55-09:32:09 Page 23

 1 A. I probably will investigate more and see what --

 2 how else I can support those boycott efforts. And it may

 3 be in terms of providing legal assistance, whether it's

 4 pro bono or otherwise, to those causes.

 5 Q. Okay. When did you first start engaging in this

 6 boycott that's at issue in this suit here?

 7 A. Well, I think always -- I mean, when I was -- I

 8 think 19 years old, 20 years old, I spent a fair amount of

 9 time in the West Bank. My father was a Lutheran

10 theologian, and he spent a year of his sabbatical in a

11 place called Tantur, which is between Jerusalem and

12 Bethlehem on the West Bank. And, you know, I became very

13 aware of the colonization movement and the land

14 expropriation of the Palestinians -- Palestinian land on

15 the West Bank and the creeping expansion of Israel into

16 the West Bank and the imprisonment of many Palestinians,

17 the loss of their lands, their resources, et cetera.

18 So I became very aware of that. And

19 certainly at that time I wouldn't -- I'm not sure I termed

20 it so much as -- the term "boycott" at that time was

21 not -- not a -- in sort of the linguist currency of the

22 day, but I certainly would have not purchased products

23 from settlements there that I was aware of that were

24 getting started on expropriated lands.

25 Q. Okay. In terms of your boycott of companies

09:32:27-09:33:23 Page 24

 1 that's at issue in the suit, when would you say that

 2 started?

 3 A. Probably at least -- I didn't become aware of

 4 activities of, like, Hewlett-Packard, Caterpillar, these

 5 companies now, until perhaps maybe -- really fairly

 6 recently, like a year and a half ago or so.

 7 Q. Okay. So have you been engaged in boycott of

 8 those companies continuously for the last year and a half

 9 or so?

10 A. I would say probably.

11 Q. When you say "probably," what do you mean by

12 that?

13 A. Well, I don't have -- I don't have a definite

14 start date for you.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. But approximately about a year and a half ago?

18 A. Year, year and a half, yes.

19 Q. Okay. So we'll call it around summer of 2016?

20 A. I guess I'm uncomfortable in, you know,

21 estimating that and being nailed down to an estimate.

22 Q. So were you engaged in a boycott of companies

23 three years ago?

24 A. I'm not sure I recognized it as a boycott at that

25 time, but I certainly would not have bought, say, wines at

09:33:40-09:34:34 Page 25

 1 that time that I knew were produced in illegal

 2 settlements.

 3 Q. Okay.

 4 A. Whether I termed it a boycott or not -- it

 5 probably was, but -- you know, I wouldn't have bought

 6 those products.

 7 Q. So kind of -- let's separate them out a little

 8 bit: In terms of products produced in settlements, when

 9 would you say your boycott related to that began?

10 A. I don't think, going back to 1977, I would have

11 bought a bottle of wine that was produced in an illegal

12 settlement. I didn't term it as a boycott, it would just

13 be a preference of, like, I'm not going to support this.

14 Q. Let's not get hung up on the terminology and --

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. -- you know, when -- when would you have made a

17 purchasing decision --

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. -- you know, relevant to these considerations.

20 A. Sure.

21 Q. So similarly, would you say that you were engaged

22 in a boycott of companies related to this case three years

23 ago?

24 A. Not the companies that I specify because I wasn't

25 aware of it. I became super conscious of this after my

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Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

09:34:50-09:36:05 Page 26

 1 trip to Palestine and Israel. I would say just six months

 2 ago.

 3 Q. Okay. So you wouldn't have been engaged in a

 4 boycott of these companies three years ago then?

 5 A. I wasn't -- yes. I was not aware of the

 6 Hewlett-Packard thing. I think I was aware of

 7 Caterpillar. But, again, I don't have much of a need to

 8 buy tractors, so --

 9 Q. How long do you plan to continue your boycott?

10 A. Well, if some equitable peace agreement is

11 reached, I would love to spend money on -- for all those

12 folks there, whether it's Israeli settlements,

13 Palestinians. I mean, there's so much potential there for

14 those two peoples. But, unfortunately, the road it's

15 going down is one that guarantees that there will never be

16 peace, that current direction.

17 Q. Okay. So assume that a peace agreement is not

18 reached; how long would you plan to continue your boycott

19 under those circumstances?

20 A. Well, as long as Israel continues its policy of

21 never allowing a two-state solution, which I believe is --

22 has happened, or in their one-state vision does not allow

23 equal rights for all of its people, Palestinians or Jews

24 or Israelis, then I would continue boycott -- my boycott.

25 Q. Okay. So put it a different way, absent a change

09:36:19-09:37:12 Page 27

 1 in Israeli policy, you would plan to continue your boycott

 2 indefinitely?

 3 A. Yes.

 4 Q. I think we touched on this earlier, but has the

 5 scope of your boycott been informed by particular

 6 resources and documents?

 7 A. I think I already answered that pretty -- I mean,

 8 is there something you didn't understand in my answer?

 9 Q. Are there particular documents or resources that

10 you would look to to inform you as to what you can and

11 can't -- should and should not buy?

12 A. I'm not aware of documents. I've looked at

13 Internet resources. I've looked at --

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. -- the New York Times. I've looked at all kinds

16 of things. So . . .

17 Q. Are there particular lists, for example, that you

18 might look to?

19 A. I have seen on Jewish Voice for Peace there have

20 been certain things identified. That's probably my main

21 source for identifying what products.

22 Q. Okay. And do they have a list available of

23 companies that they're boycotting?

24 A. There have been specific -- I believe on their

25 website they show you specific things. Like, I know one

09:37:25-09:38:38 Page 28

 1 was Hewlett-Packard, I believe another was Caterpillar --

 2 I might be wrong about that. But there's also, like,

 3 SodaStream and other companies.

 4 Q. Okay. Are there any other organizations' lists

 5 that you've -- that you've researched or looked at at any

 6 point?

 7 A. Well, as I said -- I mean, I've read many

 8 different things. One is Mondoweiss, which is a Internet

 9 news, which there have been various lists. I know there

10 have been articles on -- on HP. I've read the Israeli

11 newspaper Haaretz, which also goes into those issues.

12 Q. Okay. And can you think of other resources that

13 you've looked to?

14 A. Yeah, Electronic Intifada is another website, and

15 just the mainstream media as well. So . . .

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. The Lutheran ELCA and various religious websites

18 too. There are many -- most mainstream Protestant

19 denominations also endorse the boycott in some form or

20 another.

21 Q. Okay. What other denominations' materials have

22 you looked at or been an influence on you?

23 A. I've looked at Presbyterians, I believe

24 Mennonites. I've looked at Amnesty International, that's

25 not a religious denomination, whereas the Lutherans -- I'm

09:39:13-09:40:22 Page 29

 1 forgetting what other denominations I might have looked

 2 at.

 3 Q. Okay. Can you think of any others at this point?

 4 A. I can't think of any others right now.

 5 Q. Okay. Would you change your boycott if any of

 6 those organizations changed the companies that they

 7 thought should be boycotted?

 8 A. I may if I get more information and that I trust,

 9 you know, I may change it, sure.

10 Q. What organizations do you trust in terms of

11 providing information about your boycott?

12 A. Well, I think Jewish Voice for Peace has been

13 very good on that and -- it's -- it's always a matter of

14 fact-checking too. We're all lawyers here -- almost all

15 of us. And so I don't want to just go on one source, I

16 want to check it too and say -- because there's a lot of

17 misinformation out there on all sides. You know, you want

18 to make that you're accurate.

19 Q. Sure. So what organizations, then, would you

20 consider to be more trustworthy?

21 A. Well, I think -- I think the New York Times is

22 pretty good on that. I think JVP, Jewish Voice for Peace,

23 again. As I said, I think the ELCA. And those would be

24 the main sources I would look to.

25 Q. Okay.

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Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

09:40:34-09:42:24 Page 30

 1 A. And various other -- yeah, I'll leave it at that.

 2 Q. So those are the more trustworthy sources that

 3 you would look to?

 4 A. Well, I'm not sure that I can give -- it's just

 5 my personal opinion, obviously, what is trustworthy or

 6 what is not, but it's the ones that I would tend to give

 7 more credibility to.

 8 Q. Okay. Are there individuals that you've

 9 talked -- that have informed the scope of your boycott?

10 A. I don't think so. I don't think we've talked

11 about -- specifically talked about the companies. It's

12 all been through my own research.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. Almost entirely. So . . .

15 Q. Okay. Can you think of any instance where you've

16 changed the scope of your boycott as a result of talking

17 with someone?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. Who have you spoken about -- spoken to

20 about your boycotts?

21 A. I mean, I've spoken to family members. I've

22 talked to my lawyers. I've talked to some of my contacts

23 in Tucson that I previously mentioned. I talked to --

24 there's another legal group called Palestine Legal, I've

25 had a conversation with their director.

09:42:40-09:43:35 Page 31

 1 Q. Can you think of anyone else that you ever talked

 2 to?

 3 A. About my personal boycott, you're saying, or what

 4 I would boycott and things like that? Is that your

 5 question?

 6 Q. That's correct.

 7 A. Beyond that, not really.

 8 Q. Okay. So you can't think of anyone else that

 9 you've talked to about your boycott?

10 A. There may have been. I'm not going to be

11 pigeonholed on that. But those are the individuals I can

12 think of.

13 Q. So at this point you can't recall other

14 individuals that you've talked to?

15 A. Well, I have spoken -- I'm thinking of one public

16 event that I went to, it was on -- it was at the Jewish

17 congregation in Sedona. And there was a Anti-Defamation

18 League person there, and I spoke -- and I just

19 mentioned -- I was in the audience, and there were

20 questions back and forth, and then I said that I

21 personally supported the boycott of companies that

22 perpetuate the occupation.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. So I mean -- and there were probably 30 people in

25 the room. So . . .

09:43:47-09:45:12 Page 32

 1 Q. Okay. So aside from that event and the others

 2 you listed, can you think of anyone else that you talked

 3 to about your boycott?

 4 A. Specifically about what I am boycotting,

 5 et cetera, no, I can't think of any.

 6 Q. Or that the -- the fact that you're engaged in a

 7 boycott?

 8 A. I think I may have mentioned, like, to a public

 9 defender in Cottonwood, Mike Shaw. Someone in Flagstaff

10 who's on the city council, Eva Putzova -- I don't know how

11 to spell her name -- and her husband, Joe Bader.

12 Q. Okay. And can you think of any others at this

13 time?

14 A. If we sat here for a long time, I probably could.

15 But, you know, I -- those are the people off the top of my

16 head that I can think of. So . . .

17 Q. Okay. So you just mentioned an event that you

18 attended related to this. Can you think of any other

19 events or telephone calls that you've -- let's start with

20 events. Can you think of any events that you've attended

21 relating to your boycott?

22 A. Like, public events? No, I can't think of any.

23 Q. Okay. And can you think of any phone conferences

24 or other discussions that you may have had regarding your

25 boycott?

09:45:28-09:46:32 Page 33

 1 A. I got together with friends in Tucson. I know

 2 that we talked about it a bit, and those are the

 3 individuals that I mentioned before. And it wasn't so

 4 much on the mechanics of boycotting, but it was on, you

 5 know, the possibility of this lawsuit.

 6 Q. Okay. Do you know of others that are engaged in

 7 similar boycotts?

 8 A. Sure.

 9 Q. Okay. Can you -- can you list those individuals

10 or companies?

11 A. I think it's a nationwide -- it's a worldwide

12 movement to boycott -- to one degree or another.

13 My personal boycott is limited to those

14 businesses that perpetuate the occupation of the West

15 Bank. There are others that are -- make it broader. They

16 have an academic boycott, and they extend it to all of

17 Israel, saying that, you know, Israel's economy should

18 take a hit as long as they're going to continue to

19 colonize the West Bank. I don't go that far.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. It's worldwide. It's, you know, Norway. You

22 have -- and you have also many countries around the world

23 even, and individuals. And here in Arizona there are

24 various movements, you know, that are doing that. Many

25 states.

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Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

09:47:13-09:48:34 Page 34

 1 Q. Okay.

 2 A. It's a broad movement. And it's very mainstream,

 3 all these churches, religious groups.

 4 Q. Okay.

 5 A. Human rights groups.

 6 Q. Would you say that your boycott matches the

 7 boycott of any other organization in terms of its scope?

 8 A. I think some of the church denominations are --

 9 my -- my boycott is a bit more limited because a group

10 like Jewish Voice for Peace endorses the entire sort of

11 BDS platform. I'm more limited, and I don't necessarily

12 want to boycott Israel. I think Israel certainly has a

13 right to exist, as well as does Palestine, and secured

14 borders that respect everyone.

15 So my focus is on the colonial effort --

16 settler/colonial effort on the West Bank that's currently

17 in progress.

18 I don't know if that answers your question,

19 but . . .

20 Q. So your boycott differs in some way from JVP

21 then?

22 A. I embrace their call for boycott. I'm just

23 saying my -- and I'm doing in response to their call for

24 boycott. It's just my focus is more limited.

25 Q. Okay. So --

09:48:48-09:49:56 Page 35

 1 A. And some of the churches and denominations really

 2 look at what's going on in the West Bank and limit it to

 3 that.

 4 Q. So just to be clear then, you have initiated your

 5 boycott in response to a call from JVP to boycott in some

 6 scope Israeli companies or relating to Israeli policies?

 7 A. I'm not aware of boycotting Israeli companies per

 8 se, but I am boycotting multinational companies that are

 9 helping perpetuate the occupation.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. I'm sorry, maybe --

12 Q. No, it was a con- -- it was a convoluted

13 question.

14 Would you say -- is it fair to say that your

15 boycott was initiated in response to a call from JVP to

16 boycott, even if the scope of your boycott might differ

17 from JVP's?

18 A. Yes. Yeah, and others as well.

19 Q. Okay. And who would -- what are those others

20 that you would say --

21 A. The larger BDS movement. I agree with a lot of

22 what they are saying. My focus, again, is limited to the

23 colonial effort on the West Bank. But, you know, I agree

24 with a lot of what -- what they are promoting, and then

25 responding to that call for boycott as well.

09:50:03-09:51:14 Page 36

 1 Q. Okay.

 2 A. In a more limited fashion.

 3 Q. Can you think of any particular BDS organizations

 4 that you responded to the call or --

 5 A. Well, it's a very widespread movement. There is

 6 a -- I believe he's an Israeli Arab man who has sort of

 7 started it, Barghouti is his last name.

 8 Q. Okay. Can you think of his first name?

 9 A. I forget his first name.

10 Q. Okay. Are there other BDS movements or

11 individuals within -- sorry, BDS organizations or

12 individuals involved in the BDS movement that you are

13 responding to the call of?

14 A. It's such a diffuse movement. I'm not sure what

15 organization is what. But I know that there are movements

16 in Europe, in Scandinavia, Italy, France, who have called

17 for similar types of boycotts such as -- you know, the

18 boycott of mislabeled Israeli -- so-called Israeli wines

19 that are produced on the West Bank; I'm responding to that

20 call.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. I do not want to, you know, buy those wines. I'm

23 not going to buy them. If -- if my law firm hosts a

24 reception, I'm put in a little quandary. You know, must I

25 buy this wine or not this wine? What if it costs a

09:51:35-09:52:52 Page 37

 1 quarter less? It's all kind of crazy things that it sets

 2 up.

 3 Q. So this should be fairly obvious given our

 4 discussion. But you're familiar with the BDS movement

 5 then, correct?

 6 A. Yes.

 7 Q. Can you describe what you believe the BDS

 8 movement to be?

 9 A. As far as I understand it, it's a non-violent

10 movement that's based on the boycott of South Africa and

11 apartheid. And it has -- as far as I recall, it has three

12 central paradigms. One is for the equal treatment of Arab

13 citizens of Israel, another is the right of return for

14 Palestinian refugees, and a third is an end to the

15 colonization of the West Bank.

16 Q. So those are the object -- sorry, the objectives,

17 you believe, of the BDS movement. What are -- what

18 conduct do you believe they're calling for?

19 A. My understanding is the wider movement is calling

20 for a boycott of -- essentially the Israeli economy, and

21 there are also parts of that that call for an academic

22 boycott, artistic boycotts, in an effort to pressure

23 Israel to agree to a two-state solution or at least equal

24 rights.

25 Q. Would Jordahl, PC like to support one or more BDS

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Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

09:53:08-09:54:31 Page 38

 1 campaigns?

 2 A. Sure.

 3 Q. And similarly, would you like to -- are you

 4 supporting any BDS campaigns in your personal capacity?

 5 A. Yes. And I think I've mentioned my focus is

 6 limited to the West Bank because that's what I -- what I

 7 know, and I think it's best to apply pressure there first.

 8 But I agree a refugee resolution has to be found. It

 9 would probably likely be bringing refugees back to a new

10 Palestinian state on the West Bank instead of -- you know,

11 it's unrealistic to think that, you know, millions of

12 Palestinian refugees will be allowed to resettle in

13 Israel. You know, that just won't work. So, yeah, I

14 fully agree on equal rights for Arab Israelis.

15 Right now there's a PEW research poll

16 conducted in 2015 that said some 45 percent of Jewish

17 Israelis would like to see their Palestinian citizens

18 deported, which is just outrageous to me. I'm sure both

19 populations would like to just blink and not see the

20 other, but they exist, and they're going to have to

21 co-exist with some semblance of equal rights. Or at least

22 if they have to do a divorce, there's some sort of

23 security guarantee.

24 Q. So you believe that Israeli accords equal

25 treatment to its Arab citizens within its pre-1967

09:54:39-09:55:52 Page 39

 1 borders?

 2 A. No.

 3 Q. Okay. And in what respect do you think that's

 4 not the case?

 5 A. Well, it's -- in many.

 6 If you look at education funding, there's

 7 just a fraction of funding that goes -- public funding

 8 that goes to Arab citizens of Israel. There are whole

 9 cities that Arabs cannot live in legally because they're

10 basically -- have cities with HOAs, essentially,

11 homeowners association, and the Israeli Supreme Court has

12 said social compatibility is one factor that they can use

13 to discriminate. And so there -- there are towns of, you

14 know, many thousands where there's not a single Arab

15 citizen that is allowed in, so -- there are a whole litany

16 of laws that discriminate against Arabs in Israel.

17 Q. Can you think of examples of those laws?

18 A. Well, sure. There's right -- well, land

19 expropriation is one. You can look at -- there are whole

20 Bedouin communities now that are being uprooted and

21 destroyed, even though they were forced to live in certain

22 areas many years ago. Now they're being forced to move

23 again to create room for new exclusively Jewish

24 communities.

25 Yes. And Palestinian communities in Israel

09:56:16-09:57:20 Page 40

 1 are prohibited from teaching their own history, what they

 2 call the Nakba, which was the events of 1948 where some

 3 700,000 Palestinians were -- either fled or were forced to

 4 leave. And what -- what those municipalities will do

 5 is -- pursuant to Israeli laws -- is lose funding,

 6 municipal funding, if they teach their children their own

 7 history.

 8 Q. Okay.

 9 A. So there are many laws like that. They're --

10 they're, you know -- I remember seeing a list. And

11 there -- there are human rights groups in Israel itself,

12 and -- I'm forgetting the names, but I did also research

13 that.

14 Q. Okay. Turning back to the BDS campaigns. How

15 does the scope of your boycott differ from what you view

16 to be a typical BDS campaign or boycott?

17 A. Well, I don't know what a typical boycott is. I

18 mean, it's a diffuse thing. I know there are those three

19 principles that are articulated. So . . .

20 Q. Do you understand -- and I think you were saying

21 earlier -- that a typical -- Scratch that.

22 The BDS campaign is not limited to the

23 settlements, but addresses all of Israel. Is that your

24 understanding?

25 A. That's my understanding.

09:57:36-09:58:42 Page 41

 1 Q. Given that, do you believe there is any

 2 differences between the scope of your boycott and the

 3 boycott called for by the BDS movement?

 4 A. Well, again, I think my personal belief on that,

 5 that is more limited.

 6 Q. Okay. And so how --

 7 A. I am responding to the call to boycott, but that

 8 is very broad. And people look at it in different ways,

 9 and I look at it in a more limited fashion.

10 Q. Okay. So how is your personal boycott more

11 limited?

12 A. Well, I'm -- I'm -- I'm not sure I believe in the

13 artistic or academic boycott. I had dinner with a lovely

14 professor from Hebrew Union College, and his wife, and

15 he's an academic in archeology in Jerusalem. And my son

16 and I were there. You know, he was saying, you know, "I

17 agree with a lot of the boycott stuff, but the academic

18 one, I'm not so sure that's good because most academics

19 are fairly liberal. They want equal rights with the

20 Palestinians. And if we can't go abroad, then you're not

21 going to get that message."

22 So that kind of resonated with me. I think,

23 well, why are we doing that? But they need to advocate

24 for their counterparts, Palestinian academics, who are

25 often prohibited from traveling abroad because of the

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Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

09:58:57-10:00:06 Page 42

 1 occupation, are not allowed the leave. They need to

 2 advocate for them.

 3 Q. Okay. In addition to the academic context, are

 4 there other ways that your boycott is more limited than a

 5 BDS boycott?

 6 A. Well, I'm not so sure about the artistic boycott.

 7 And again, I'm just -- I'm focused on the West Bank stuff,

 8 so I don't think there's a whole lot of artistic stuff.

 9 There are issues around, like, FIFA, the

10 World Cup -- I don't know if you're aware of that or not.

11 But Israeli settlements want to send their teams as a part

12 of Israel, even though they're on occupied territory. So

13 there's an issue there. So I would not support them being

14 allowed to do that. You know, if they want to go as

15 Palestine, that's fine.

16 Q. In terms of scope of companies being boycotted,

17 is there any difference between the scope of your boycott

18 and the scope of a BDS boycott?

19 A. I'm just not sure what companies they are focused

20 on that are in addition. I'm sure -- I think they're

21 probably -- just about any company in Israel they might

22 boycott. I'm not sure. There are large pharmaceutical

23 companies. So I'm not sure. But I know that they're

24 targeted as well.

25 Q. Do you understand the BDS boycott to extend to

10:00:26-10:01:23 Page 43

 1 all companies in Israel?

 2 A. I'm not sure. I'm not sure about that. I don't

 3 want to speak without knowledge. But I know that there's

 4 an effort to make them be targeted. You know, instead of

 5 just a wide scattershot, let's focus on certain things.

 6 Q. Okay. In terms of the JVP list of companies they

 7 boycott, what do you understand the rationale for

 8 inclusion of companies?

 9 A. Well --

10 Q. For their criteria?

11 A. My understanding is they were looking at the main

12 companies that are involved in perpetuating the occupation

13 of the West Bank, and that's where I really agree with

14 them.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. And that was Caterpillar, SodaStream, HP, in

17 particular. So . . .

18 Q. Okay. Do you understand their list to include

19 companies that may be based in Israel, but don't have a

20 specific connection to the settlements or occupation?

21 A. I'm just not sure.

22 Q. Can you think of any examples where your boycott

23 is more limited than any BDS boycott that you're familiar

24 with?

25 A. I'm not sure it's more limited than any BDS

10:01:38-10:02:38 Page 44

 1 boycott. Number one, I don't know what -- what those --

 2 their limitations are. It's worldwide, so I don't know.

 3 Q. Can you think of a specific example where a

 4 company is being boycotted by someone in the BDS movement

 5 that you are -- that you would not boycott?

 6 A. I can't think of one. There's probably some that

 7 exist. I don't know.

 8 Q. Okay.

 9 A. So . . .

10 Q. Why do you think such a difference might occur?

11 A. Well, because I think the general BDS movement is

12 to boycott all of Israel as a way of, you know, forcing

13 them to give equal rights to Palestinians or -- and also

14 to end the occupation.

15 Q. Okay. And do you view your personal boycott as

16 more limited than boycotting all of Israel?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you have any personal objections to one or

19 more BDS campaigns?

20 A. Well, like I said, I'm not so sure about the

21 academic and artistic boycott. I just don't know. I have

22 some reservations.

23 Q. Do you believe any BDS campaigns are motivated in

24 part by anti-Semitism?

25 A. It's certainly possible. I think the main thrust

10:03:03-10:04:35 Page 45

 1 of it, it's not. And anti-Semitism is a very real

 2 scourge, and so I think all of us need to be vigilant

 3 about it. But -- but the fear of anti-Semitism does not

 4 justify the violation of civil rights or human rights.

 5 Q. Okay. So what products have you declined to buy

 6 as a result of your boycott?

 7 A. Well, I -- my personal -- one, I've refused to

 8 buy mislabeled Israeli wines, as I've said. I have

 9 refused to book Airbnb. I have -- for personal boycott,

10 I've tried to stay away from HP products. I've recently

11 had to buy one, but that was for my law firm, and I'll

12 explain why. But . . .

13 Q. Are there any -- are there other examples of

14 purchasing decisions, aside from HP, Airbnb, and wine,

15 that you can think you specifically made a different

16 purchasing decision as a result of your boycott?

17 A. Yeah. I think there was -- I'm remembering when

18 I left Israeli, I declined to buy this product, it was a

19 Dead Sea something. And I believe that was within the

20 West Bank, and so I didn't buy it.

21 Q. Okay. Can you think of any other purchasing

22 decisions that were specifically made as a result of your

23 boycott?

24 A. I think those would be the main ones. I mean,

25 it's kind of hard being here in the United States. There

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(11) Pages 42 - 45
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

10:04:50-10:06:11 Page 46

 1 are few opportunities to buy these products or whatever,

 2 so -- but those are the ones I recall.

 3 Q. Okay. So you can't recall any others right now?

 4 A. Not right now.

 5 Q. Okay. Would your boycott extend to companies

 6 owned or operated by Palestinians in what you believe to

 7 be Palestinian lands?

 8 A. Well, if -- if -- it depends. I mean, if they

 9 were in conjunction with, you know, products that they

10 produce in the illegal Israeli settlements, yes, I would

11 boycott those.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. And -- and to clarify, I'm not a fan of the

14 Palestinian Authority. That's the main governmental body.

15 I think it's very corrupt. I think it's failed its youth.

16 I don't have much of an opportunity to buy their --

17 whatever they produce, so I don't know.

18 Q. So turning to your PC, what purchasing decisions

19 have you made as a result of your boycott -- Sorry, let

20 me -- scratch that.

21 In terms of your PC, what purchasing

22 decisions have you made that would have come out

23 differently if you had been able to extend your personal

24 boycott to your PC?

25 A. Right. Well, one is -- and I brought up this

10:06:27-10:07:37 Page 47

 1 printer. I've been in desperate need of a mobile printer

 2 because I'm going between work sites, one in Cottonwood,

 3 one in Clarkdale. And my wife is back from her four-month

 4 sabbatical so I needed to bring that printer back for her

 5 to use. And so I went to my local Staples store in

 6 Sedona, and they had one mobile printer there. And it was

 7 a very nice model on sale and it was an HP. And I asked

 8 if they had any others, and they said no, that was all

 9 they carried. I didn't buy it. I went home, went online

10 to see what I could find, and really it was the best in

11 its class and it was the cheapest that I could find. And

12 I felt, to comply with the certification, that I was

13 essentially forced to buy that if I wanted to buy

14 anything.

15 So I went ahead and purchased it. But, you

16 know, I consulted with my attorneys and told them I was

17 going to do this, and -- you know, I don't want to get

18 into communications, but I said that I felt like -- you

19 know, I would jeopardize my contract if I got into that

20 situation and I declined to buy it when I really needed it

21 or I bought some inferior product.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. So I did it.

24 There was another issue of, like, I

25 desperately need a -- I have a Dell computer. It's -- and

10:07:55-10:09:12 Page 48

 1 I have my own laptop, of course -- but the Dell computer

 2 is probably seven, eight years old, and it's giving me

 3 problems. I would like to buy another desktop, but I

 4 don't want to be forced into the same situation I was with

 5 the printer. So I'm going to forego that decision until

 6 this lawsuit is over with one way or the other. And so I

 7 feel like I cannot go ahead with that purchase. And I

 8 haven't researched between HP and others right now, but I

 9 don't want to get into the same situation where the State

10 of Arizona is telling me which -- which computer I have to

11 buy if I want to work.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. There are other issues too, like with Airbnb. I

14 had to go to Los Angeles last year, part business, part

15 pleasure. And I do not recall if -- and we rent a place,

16 I believe it was VRBO. Are you familiar with that site?

17 Q. Vaguely.

18 A. Okay. It's like Airbnb, but it's an alternate.

19 And I do not recall if it was through VRBO or Airbnb. I

20 think I was becoming aware of the Airbnb issues that I

21 objected to, but I was put into a position there. If that

22 were to occur now -- and, in fact, it did -- I would have

23 to look at that very carefully.

24 Just this weekend I was supposed to have a

25 meeting Friday at the ACLU. And we, of course, had this

10:09:30-10:10:36 Page 49

 1 deposition Monday, so I researched where am I going to

 2 stay? And I was thinking of staying those three days

 3 because I was thinking why drive down twice. And so I

 4 looked on various websites for -- for, you know, temporary

 5 housing, and I did look on Airbnb. And there was a great

 6 place for, like, 61 bucks a night, very close to where I

 7 needed to be -- I could have walked to your various

 8 offices -- and I just couldn't click the yes button on

 9 that one.

10 What I decided to do is just spend one night

11 in Phoenix, so I booked the Clarendon hotel just up the

12 road here. So -- and I looked at VRBO site,

13 alternatively, and there was nothing quite as good there.

14 So I'm, again, put into a situation of is it

15 State of Arizona telling me that if I book one over the

16 other I'm going to lose my right to work, essentially, on

17 these contracts.

18 So I just aborted that decision and I said,

19 "I'm staying one night, I'm going to stay at a hotel."

20 Kind of similar to the desktop computer thing. I'm not

21 going to buy one until this is done. And I don't know, am

22 I boycotting? I'm not sure in that context. I just don't

23 know.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. And then even my personal decisions, am I an

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(12) Pages 46 - 49
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

10:10:57-10:11:51 Page 50

 1 affiliate of my corporation where the prohibition on my

 2 expression is as an individual? Does that -- I've taken

 3 the position that no, it does not. The law says any

 4 affiliate as well. What is that?

 5 I mean, I am my corporation. I mean, it's a

 6 fiction. We all know that it's a fiction that the state

 7 sets up for good reasons, you know, corporate fiction.

 8 But, you know, I'm unclear about that. I honestly don't

 9 know. I'm maintaining the position that it doesn't apply

10 to me as a human being, as an individual. But I can't

11 guarantee that every judge is going to look at it that

12 way, or that we might, you know, any of us. So I don't

13 know.

14 Q. And so I think we're going to turn to the

15 affiliate issue later.

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. But returning to the purchasing decisions, can

18 you think of any other purchasing decisions that your PC

19 would like to make or has made that would come out

20 differently if you could extend your -- your personal

21 boycott to your PC?

22 A. Right. Well, I talked about the two Airbnb

23 things. I talked about the two HP things. I think those

24 are the only direct things that -- from the past till

25 now -- that I could think of.

10:12:00-10:12:55 Page 51

 1 Q. Okay. Can you think of any others on the

 2 horizon?

 3 A. Well, again, if I need a tractor, I might have to

 4 revisit that.

 5 Q. Aside from that, can you think of any others?

 6 A. Well, SodaStream, the wines that I mentioned.

 7 Q. And is that it?

 8 A. That's all I can think of now, but I don't have

 9 some complete generic list of -- I know you're asking

10 about that, but I just don't know.

11 I know that the Lutherans are in the process

12 of looking at that, they're gathering a list. I know

13 that -- I think the UN is, but their list is not out. And

14 I'm not responding to, you know, governmental bodies for

15 that, but I want to verify on my own.

16 Q. Okay. In terms of that computer purchasing

17 decision, assume for a second that you did some research

18 and concluded that the best computer for your PC was

19 actually a Dell or Lenovo. In that case, do you think

20 your -- what would you do in that circumstance?

21 MS. BRODY: I'm going to object to form.

22 Foundation.

23 THE WITNESS: Where do we go from here?

24 MR. ENSIGN: I'll restate the question.

25 THE WITNESS: Okay.

10:13:22-10:14:25 Page 52

 1 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

 2 Q. So assume for purposes of this question that you

 3 research what computer to buy and you conclude that the

 4 best computer for your PC is a Dell. What would you do in

 5 that circumstance?

 6 A. Well, I imagine I'd probably buy it.

 7 Q. Okay. And do you believe that your boycott would

 8 influence that decision in that scenario?

 9 A. I think that I would probably go online and I

10 would hope that the HP would not be the best option.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. If I'm being honest to myself.

13 Q. Okay. And if it wasn't the best option, you

14 would just --

15 A. Well, that's what I'm doing right now with my

16 desktop. I'm just pushing that decision off.

17 Q. Okay. Are there any companies where you're

18 boycotting less than all of their products and services or

19 is it all or nothing for each company?

20 A. Well, of the companies I mentioned, it's all or

21 nothing.

22 Q. Okay. And can you think of any instances where

23 it's more limited?

24 A. I mean, I can't think of any that I'm aware of.

25 No, I can't think of any.

10:14:57-10:15:56 Page 53

 1 Q. Okay. Are there any services or resources that

 2 you provide in your personal capacity to others boycotting

 3 Israel?

 4 A. I have made offers for pro bono legal assistance

 5 on issues. And I don't think -- as a lawyer, you know, we

 6 separate ourselves from, you know, the person or the

 7 thing, of course, that we're representing, and I don't

 8 think that would be a violation of that -- the

 9 certification procedures. But . . .

10 Q. Sorry. Just to clarify, if you were to do so in

11 your personal capacity, do you believe that would violate

12 the certification requirement?

13 A. If I were to do what now?

14 Q. Let's take it one by one. If you were to donate

15 to an organization engaged in the boycott of Israel and

16 that donation was in your personal capacity -- first of

17 all, are you -- have you made any such donations?

18 A. Well, you're saying "boycott of Israel." Again,

19 my boycott would be against the companies that perpetuate

20 the occupation. That's where I've taken the position

21 that, on a personal level, I could engage in that, but I'm

22 not sure. I might be an affiliate, so I may have some

23 risk there.

24 Q. Okay. If you weren't an affiliate, do you

25 believe you could make a contribution in your personal

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(13) Pages 50 - 53
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

10:16:08-10:16:53 Page 54

 1 capacity?

 2 A. Pursuant to the statute here?

 3 Q. Yeah.

 4 A. Without running -- I think so.

 5 Q. Do you have any reason to believe as long as --

 6 as long as you're not an affiliate that you could not do

 7 so?

 8 MS. BRODY: Object to form.

 9 MR. ENSIGN: You can answer.

10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, can you ask the

11 question again?

12 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

13 Q. Sure. Are you aware of any restrictions on your

14 ability to donate to organizations engaged in

15 Israel-related boycotts, assuming that you, in your

16 personal capacity, are not an affiliate of your PC?

17 A. I'm not aware of restrictions under that law for

18 that -- if I'm not an affiliate, that I, as a human being,

19 can engage in that.

20 Q. Do you believe you could provide pro bono

21 services in your personal capacity?

22 A. I don't think I could because I'm -- you know, of

23 malpractice issues. My corporation is covered and that's

24 what covers me.

25 Q. Okay.

10:17:17-10:39:23 Page 55

 1 A. I don't think I could do that.

 2 Q. Could you -- do you believe you could set up a

 3 separate PC?

 4 A. For what? Well, of course I can set up a

 5 separate PC. For what though? I'm not sure what you're

 6 getting at.

 7 Q. I guess we'll start with could you set up a

 8 separate PC to perform legal services?

 9 A. I assume so.

10 Q. Okay. We'll return to that later actually.

11 MS. BRODY: Is now a good time for a health

12 break?

13 (A recess ensued.)

14 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

15 Q. So just kind of recapping, is it fair to say that

16 your boycott is not a perfect match for any other

17 organization's boycott?

18 A. Well, again, I think it -- I'm responding to the

19 call of boycott from not only JVP, but also BDS; the

20 Lutheran church has issued restrictions too. My personal

21 focus is more limited.

22 Q. Okay. So --

23 A. I'm not sure if I could characterize it as a

24 perfect fit or not. It's like my focus is on a subset of

25 that.

10:39:34-10:40:34 Page 56

 1 Q. Can you think of any organization's boycott whose

 2 scope matches the scope of your boycott?

 3 A. Yeah. Some of the Protestant denominations. And

 4 I forget who they are exactly, but I know that they are

 5 not boycotting Israel per se, but, you know, companies

 6 that perpetuate the occupation.

 7 Q. Okay.

 8 A. And I'm responding to that call too.

 9 Q. Sure. So what do you understand the scope of

10 JVP's boycott to be?

11 A. Well, my understanding is that -- I think there

12 are members that are all over the place there, but the

13 general common theme is they certainly all want to boycott

14 the businesses that are helping perpetuate the occupation.

15 Some of that goes beyond that, too, to the regular BDS

16 boycott of all of Israel and certain targeted companies.

17 Q. And your own personal boycott differs in scope

18 from that?

19 A. No. I think, as I've said, some of the JVP

20 people are really focused on the West Bank, and I am too.

21 But I'm not sure I can pigeonhole it down to it's all one

22 or all the other.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. But I think it's a broad spectrum.

25 Q. To the extent that JVP is engaged in a boycott of

10:40:56-10:41:51 Page 57

 1 companies not because they are involved in the occupation

 2 but solely because they're located in Israel, does your

 3 own boycott differ from such a boycott?

 4 MS. BRODY: Object to form.

 5 THE WITNESS: I can answer, right?

 6 MR. ENSIGN: Yeah.

 7 THE WITNESS: To that extent, my -- again,

 8 my focus is not that of those Israeli companies. It's on

 9 the West Bank.

10 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

11 Q. Are there any Israeli companies other than

12 SodaStream that you're boycotting?

13 A. Israeli companies?

14 Q. Yeah.

15 A. Well, if given the opportunity, yes. You know,

16 I'd probably boycott the Israeli bus line. It's called

17 Egged. Because they provide all the transportation to all

18 these colonies on the West Bank. I don't know, whatever

19 other -- I don't get a chance to use those busses here in

20 Arizona, but -- so that's one I think of.

21 Q. Okay. And can you think of any others?

22 A. Certainly any of the providers of agricultural

23 products that are grown and sold from the Israeli colonies

24 on the West Bank.

25 Q. Okay.

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(14) Pages 54 - 57
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

10:42:06-10:43:05 Page 58

 1 A. I don't know the names of the companies.

 2 Q. Okay. Any others?

 3 A. Well, if -- I would need a complete list of what

 4 the economic output is from those colonial settlements.

 5 And I could tell you, I would boycott every one of them.

 6 I don't know what they are though.

 7 Q. Okay. And any others that you can think of right

 8 now?

 9 A. I think that includes the entire economic output

10 of those colonies. That's everything. So of that -- of

11 course it would be any business also that might be

12 American businesses there that are profiting from the

13 occupation.

14 Q. Okay. Are you boycotting any companies that are

15 located in Israel in its pre-1967 borders on that basis

16 alone?

17 A. On what basis alone?

18 Q. That they are located in Israel in its pre-1967

19 borders.

20 A. Well, sure, if they're providing -- they're

21 profiting from the occupation, yes.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. And by -- and I mentioned the bus company. That

24 would be true of HP as well. I'm sure they provide

25 services within Israel itself. But I'm going to boycott

10:43:27-10:44:25 Page 59

 1 the whole company becuase of the -- they're profiting from

 2 their activities in the settlements. Airbnb, I'm going to

 3 boycott the whole -- them nation- -- worldwide. I'm not

 4 going to voluntarily use their services because of their

 5 profiting there.

 6 Q. Okay. Would you boycott any companies based in

 7 Israel that don't have a connection to the settlements?

 8 A. I have not, and that's not my focus. And so I

 9 would need to research that carefully.

10 (Mr. Brunn Roysden is now present.)

11 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

12 Q. Okay. So you're --

13 A. But I would like -- say if they're supporting the

14 Israel military, something, or have contracts with the

15 military, and I knew that and I had an opportunity to

16 either buy or not buy those products, I would not buy them

17 because that military is enforcing the occupation and the

18 loss of rights of the indigenous people there. So . . .

19 Q. Okay. Is it fair to say, in terms of selecting

20 what companies you boycott, they have to have some sort of

21 nexus to the occupation?

22 A. That's my focus, yes.

23 Q. Is it fair to say that some BDS boycotts do not

24 require such a nexus?

25 A. I think that's -- that's probably fair. I mean,

10:44:43-10:45:30 Page 60

 1 there's a wide range, you know, it's all around the

 2 planet, that movement, and some -- some focus on one

 3 thing, some on another. So . . .

 4 Q. So you understand some of them -- some of the BDS

 5 boycotts would boycott a company solely because it's based

 6 in Israel?

 7 A. I believe so.

 8 Q. Okay. Shifting gears for a second.

 9 Do you own any stocks in your personal

10 capacity?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Have you made any decisions about what

13 stocks to buy or sell based on your boycott?

14 A. You know, I haven't -- I haven't researched that,

15 but I've not knowingly -- I'm not aware of any investments

16 in, say, Hewlett-Packard and those things. I haven't

17 reviewed that --

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. -- to be frank. I should. That's a good

20 reminder.

21 Q. Okay. But you haven't made any decisions that

22 have been influenced by your boycott as to what stocks to

23 buy or sell?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Similarly, do you own any mutual funds or

10:45:43-10:47:36 Page 61

 1 exchange-traded funds?

 2 A. Well, I should clarify my last answer. I own

 3 some, you know, retirement mutual funds. I don't own -- I

 4 don't directly own stocks that are not part of mutual

 5 funds.

 6 Q. Okay.

 7 A. Same answer.

 8 (Deposition Exhibit 2 was marked for

 9 identification.)

10 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

11 Q. So we're showing you what has been marked as

12 Exhibit 2. Do you recognize the document?

13 A. Yes, it's my Declaration of Mikkel Jordahl.

14 Q. And have you read it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is there anything in the declaration that is no

17 longer true?

18 A. No. As far as I know.

19 There's one clarification I had when I

20 reread it. I'll find it here. I think there was a

21 reference to my -- after my son's bar mitzvah, promising

22 him this trip immediately. It sounded like it was right

23 after it, but it was years. For years I promised him

24 that, so it was a long period of time. He was bar

25 mitzvahed when he was about, I don't know -- he was a

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(15) Pages 58 - 61
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

10:48:03-10:49:04 Page 62

 1 little later, like 14 or something like that. Now he's --

 2 he was 25 when I took him over.

 3 Q. Can you think of anything else that's not --

 4 A. I think everything else is accurate.

 5 Q. Take your time.

 6 A. It's okay, yeah.

 7 Q. So I'd like to direct you to paragraph 3.

 8 A. Okay.

 9 Q. And in it you state that you "participate in a

10 political boycott of consumer goods and services offered

11 by businesses supporting Israel's occupation of the

12 Palestinian territories." Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What areas do you define the Palestinian

15 territories to be?

16 A. Well, the internationally recognized boundaries

17 from -- well, in 1967, at the end of -- before the

18 hostilities started, that was what I would define as

19 anything beyond that boundary -- they call it the Green

20 Line. I would call that occupied Palestinian territories.

21 There's some dispute now as to whether Gaza

22 is actually occupied or not. There are no Israeli

23 soldiers present, but a lot of people feel like it's an

24 open-air prison.

25 Q. Okay. So you would consider Gaza to be part of

10:49:18-10:50:01 Page 63

 1 the Palestinian territories?

 2 A. Yes. And also I think -- you know,

 3 internationally, the Golan Heights is not recognized as

 4 part of Israel even though they've annexed it. And as

 5 well as East Jerusalem --

 6 Q. Okay.

 7 A. -- would be part of that Palestinian territory.

 8 Q. And how about the West Bank?

 9 A. Well, all of the West Bank beyond the Green Line

10 I would consider Palestinian territories.

11 Q. Okay. Any other areas?

12 A. I don't think so. Golan, beyond the Green Line,

13 Gaza, yeah.

14 Q. So I would like to direct to you paragraph 9.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. There you state that you have been moved by the

17 Peace Not Walls campaign?

18 A. Uh-huh.

19 Q. And that it "calls on individuals to 'invest in

20 Palestinian products to build their economy and to utilize

21 selective purchasing to avoid buying products made in

22 Israeli settlements' in the occupied Palestinian

23 territories."

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Is that correct?

10:50:23-10:51:52 Page 64

 1 Would your boycott extend to companies owned

 2 or operated by Palestinians operated in Palestinian

 3 territories?

 4 A. I think I answered that. I mean, if they were

 5 cooperating with Israeli colonial settlements on the West

 6 Bank, I wouldn't want to buy those products even if they

 7 were, you know, collaboratively produced by Palestinians.

 8 Q. Okay.

 9 A. And also anything if it's produced by the

10 Palestinian Authority, which I view as corrupt. So . . .

11 Q. Okay. So would your boycott extend to all

12 Israeli companies in the settlements?

13 A. They would likely be perpetuating the occupation,

14 so yes, I would.

15 Q. In your view, is being located in the settlements

16 sufficient to perpetuate the settlements?

17 A. Basically, yes. Well, they would be in violation

18 of international law by setting up residences.

19 International law has said, you know, the

20 law of conquest is no longer applicable in this day and

21 age and that you can't transfer parts of your population

22 to conquered territories.

23 Q. Okay. If you could take a look at paragraph 11.

24 A. Uh-huh.

25 Q. You state that you "personally boycott consumer

10:52:02-10:53:10 Page 65

 1 goods and services offered by businesses supporting

 2 Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories." Is

 3 that correct?

 4 A. Yes.

 5 Q. Would you be boycotting anyone beyond the scope

 6 of that?

 7 A. Well, it depends. If there are, say, speakers

 8 that are advocating the forced transfer of Palestinians

 9 outside of Israel or whatever, I would want to boycott --

10 I'd be out with my protest sign, I would boycott their

11 books -- you know, I don't want to participate in that

12 form of racism. So . . .

13 Q. Okay. Can you think of any other elements

14 that -- or any other aspects where your boycott might be

15 broader?

16 A. Well, I think it would be for advocates of things

17 that I view as apartheid-related or racist, and that would

18 be people or organizations that promote that. I would be

19 very against that. I would not be involved in supporting

20 that, whether financially -- I'd probably protest it --

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. -- in some form or another.

23 Those would be the main things that I can

24 think of right now.

25 Q. Okay. So if there was -- if there were a company

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(16) Pages 62 - 65
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

10:53:38-10:54:51 Page 66

 1 that had a policy of supporting Israel's -- Scratch that.

 2 If there were a company that advocated for

 3 Israel's policies in settlements, would you boycott them

 4 based on that advocacy?

 5 A. If I were aware of that, yes, I would.

 6 Q. Okay. So I'd like to shift gears a little bit to

 7 your professional background and your public company.

 8 A. Okay.

 9 Q. How long have you been a licensed attorney in

10 Arizona?

11 A. Let's see, I think 1988 I was sworn into the bar.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. Older than you guys.

14 Q. And what kind of law do you practice?

15 A. Well, right now I've limited to only governmental

16 contracts. So I am the town prosecutor for misdemeanors

17 in both Cottonwood and Clarkdale, and I provide public

18 defender services in Sedona. I wear different hats. I'm

19 also a Criminal Justice Act attorney -- and I'm not sure

20 if you're aware of that, what that is. We call it CJA,

21 appointments in federal court, so I defend -- I receive

22 appointments -- public defender in federal court in

23 Flagstaff.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. And of course the jail contract too. So that's

10:55:10-10:56:25 Page 67

 1 basically it.

 2 Q. When was your PC formed?

 3 A. I believe it was 2003.

 4 Q. And what -- and what did -- what law did you

 5 practice before then?

 6 A. Before then -- I mean, I was -- I was not

 7 incorporated, but I was active for about a year, something

 8 like that, before that as a Schedule C -- I don't know

 9 what you call it -- independent contractor or whatever. I

10 had -- did my own cases without a corporate umbrella.

11 Before that, I was the director of Coconino

12 Legal Services, which was merged with DNA-People's Legal

13 Services, which provided free legal services to indigent

14 people in the areas of civil law. Practiced a lot in the

15 Native American courts, but also Flagstaff and other

16 courts in the area. Did an awful lot in the area of

17 domestic violence in terms of representing domestic

18 violence victims; part of that involves even lobbying the

19 legislature to change laws. Did housing, all kinds of

20 things. And that was my basic thing.

21 Before that, I did criminal law. I worked

22 with a Tucson attorney, Robert Hirsh, at that time, in

23 Tucson, and couple of other fellows, and that was right

24 out of law school. So that's -- that's about it.

25 Q. Okay. In terms of --

10:56:44-10:57:33 Page 68

 1 A. In reverse.

 2 Q. Okay. In terms of your current practice, aside

 3 from your contract with the Coconino Jail District, is it

 4 fair to say that all the rest of your practice is criminal

 5 law?

 6 A. Well, both prosecuting and defending, yes.

 7 Q. Okay.

 8 A. I would say so, yeah, right now.

 9 Q. And your criminal law practice consists of being

10 a prosecutor, being a public defender, and accepting CJA

11 appointments?

12 A. That's right, yeah.

13 Q. Does it involve anything else?

14 A. Right now -- occasionally, I'll take on a civil

15 rights case. I've done -- was involved in striking out

16 three state statutes recently in the last -- I think

17 three -- three years or so. Maybe you were on the

18 opposite end of some of these, I don't know. But I'll get

19 involved in that type of thing. And I kind of consider

20 that an extension -- this case is an extension of that,

21 but in a very unique situation of being a plaintiff for

22 me.

23 Q. So what are the public entities that you have

24 contracts with, then?

25 A. Well, I have a contract with the City of Sedona

10:57:58-10:58:45 Page 69

 1 and also with Clarkdale and Cottonwood.

 2 Q. Can you think of any other contracts?

 3 A. I had a contract with the Town of Jerome, but I

 4 resigned from that.

 5 Q. Okay. And why did you resign from that?

 6 A. Well, because Jerome was a little too close to

 7 Clarkdale, and I was getting the same cops involved in

 8 different cases.

 9 Q. Okay.

10 A. And so that created a very -- I realized I

11 couldn't do that.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. It didn't pass my gut test in terms of conflict

14 of interest. So . . .

15 Q. That makes sense.

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. So in terms of Sedona, Clarkdale, and Cottonwood,

18 have you been requested to sign a certification pursuant

19 to the Act at issue here?

20 A. My Cottonwood contract predated the 2016 law, so

21 no was the answer to that one. And that's probably, I'd

22 say, like 60 percent of my income.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. Clarkdale, yes, it had that certification.

25 Sedona, I do not recall if it had it or not.

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(17) Pages 66 - 69
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

10:59:01-10:59:58 Page 70

 1 I think it did.

 2 Q. So did you sign a certification for Clarkdale?

 3 A. For Clarkdale, what I did is I called the city

 4 manager and I said I thought that this is

 5 unconstitutional. I don't like signing this. I went

 6 ahead and signed it basically under protest.

 7 Q. Okay.

 8 A. I didn't document that in writing, but -- the

 9 city manager is Gayle Mabery.

10 Q. And do you remember when that was?

11 A. That would have been probably a year and a half

12 ago or so.

13 Q. Okay. Do you remember if that was before or

14 after the Coconino Jail District certification?

15 A. The first time? Well, when I objected, you mean?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. I think -- when was that, 2016? Yeah.

18 I'm not sure. I think it was around the

19 same time, maybe a little after. I think I just got tired

20 of having to draw attention to this and -- you know, so I

21 just did it -- went ahead and did it orally. So . . .

22 Q. Okay. And did they accept your certification in

23 Clarkdale?

24 A. Yeah. Yeah.

25 Q. Have you had any further correspondence with them

11:00:13-11:01:40 Page 71

 1 about it?

 2 A. No.

 3 Q. Did you communicate your same understanding of

 4 what "affiliate" means to Clarkdale?

 5 A. I don't think so.

 6 Q. And you don't recall if Sedona has asked you for

 7 a certification like this?

 8 A. I don't recall. I thought it was in there, but I

 9 would have to review that.

10 Q. Okay. Has anyone else ever held an ownership

11 interest in your PC?

12 A. Well, I mean, I'm married. And to the extent my

13 wife has some interest, that would be the only person.

14 Q. Okay. Has your PC ever employed anyone else?

15 A. It's -- well, I -- I don't have an employee, but

16 I have an independent contractor that I hire for services.

17 She lives in San Antonio. We communicate. She does work

18 for me. So . . .

19 Q. Okay. And what's -- what is her name?

20 A. Her name is Hannah, H-a-n-n-a-h, last name

21 Sturgis, S-t-r-u-i-g [sic].

22 Q. And so in your role as a prosecutor, are you

23 employed by the cities or by counties?

24 A. Well, I'm not an employee, but it's a contractor

25 position, and it's by those municipalities: Clarkdale,

11:02:17-11:03:02 Page 72

 1 Cottonwood, Sedona.

 2 Q. Okay. I'm sorry, just backing up.

 3 For Cottonwood, did they request that you

 4 certify?

 5 A. I don't believe so. I think it's probably in

 6 their new contracts, but this is a contract that goes on

 7 until one of us gives notice that we want to discontinue

 8 it, so 30 days' notice.

 9 Q. Okay.

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. So there's not a specific renewal period?

12 A. There's not a renewal period that I'm aware of.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. I mean, I'd have to review it, but I don't think

15 so.

16 Q. And have you discussed the certification

17 requirement with anyone in Cottonwood?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Have you discussed the certification requirement

20 with anyone in the government of Sedona?

21 A. I believe I brought it up with someone there. It

22 might have been their prosecutor or something.

23 And then I need to backtrack. In

24 Cottonwood, you asked if I had talked about the

25 certification requirement to anyone in Cottonwood, and as

11:03:16-11:04:22 Page 73

 1 I mentioned previously, the public defender, Mike Shaw.

 2 Q. Okay. So you mentioned that you talked to

 3 someone in the government in Sedona about the

 4 certification requirement?

 5 A. I believe so. And I can't remember -- I mean, I

 6 really -- I don't say because I don't want to speculate.

 7 And I'm pretty sure it's in the contract. I thought that

 8 I brought that up with their prosecutors.

 9 Q. Okay. But you don't recall if you'd signed a

10 certification for them?

11 A. I just don't recall. I may have --

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. -- because I know it's required. And I know they

14 kept on -- they've told me for the last year, "Oh, we need

15 to reissue on an annual basis," but I haven't received it.

16 I've been waiting forever, you know. And in some ways I'm

17 glad because otherwise I'd have to join them in this

18 lawsuit, assuming my attorneys were okay with that.

19 Q. So if you don't mind, how long have you been

20 employed with each of these cities? And we can just go

21 through one by one. So for Sedona?

22 A. Sedona, it's just a guess, but I've probably done

23 this for, I don't know, two and a half, three years or so.

24 Q. Okay. And Clarkdale?

25 A. Clarkdale, I believe it's been about a year and a

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(18) Pages 70 - 73
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

11:04:37-11:05:45 Page 74

 1 half.

 2 Q. Okay. And Cottonwood?

 3 A. Cottonwood, it's probably coming on -- because I

 4 subbed for the previous contract holder -- probably three

 5 and a half years or so.

 6 Q. Okay. And what --

 7 A. Four years.

 8 Q. And what were the dates that you worked for

 9 Jerome?

10 A. That was just very limited. It was -- you know,

11 periodically I would get a court appointment on, say, a

12 DUI or something. So that probably was a year and a half,

13 two years ago, something like that. And I've probably

14 done maybe five cases there all told. They get over in

15 essentially one day, you know. I rarely go back twice.

16 Q. Okay. And when do you think your first case with

17 them would have been?

18 A. Couple of years ago probably.

19 Q. Okay. Does your employment with any of these

20 cities limit what other business you can do?

21 A. Well, again, it's not employment, but a contract.

22 Q. Right.

23 A. That I'm aware of now, I don't think it limits

24 what I do.

25 However, I do feel that if I were to, in

11:06:04-11:07:10 Page 75

 1 those communities, speak about my concerns about this

 2 issue, that that would draw attention to the contracts and

 3 might -- may result in the various city managers or

 4 whatever looking at them, "Hey, is Mik in violation of

 5 this or not," drawing suspicion to me. So I feel like I

 6 can't really -- or I don't want to speak there because

 7 of -- for fear of potentially having those contracts

 8 examined -- reexamined and questions raised.

 9 Q. Okay. In terms of your contracts with the cities

10 we've discussed, is that contractual relationship with

11 your PC in all of those cases?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Are you employed or have a contract with anyone

14 in your personal capacity?

15 A. I'm not sure. I would have to look at each of

16 the contracts and make sure it just didn't say Mik

17 Jordahl, period, and then contracting, or not. But my

18 understanding is it's with the PCs. I think sometimes in

19 drafting these things get confused, you know, is it with

20 Mik or is it with the corporation, all that stuff.

21 Q. Okay. But your intent would be for the PC to be

22 the contracting party for these relationships, right?

23 A. Well, I mean, it doesn't matter to me as long as

24 I get paid and we have a contract that's enforceable. But

25 I think that's the intent, is for it to go through the PC.

11:07:21-11:08:22 Page 76

 1 I'm not sure, on my appointments out of

 2 federal court, whether they -- I think they have listed me

 3 in my individual capacity --

 4 Q. Okay.

 5 A. -- as an attorney.

 6 Q. So those representations would not be through

 7 your PC, but rather --

 8 A. I believe so. I would have to double-check

 9 though.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. Because, I mean, the paychecks I get, you know,

12 just say "Mik Jordahl" on them. So they don't say "PC."

13 And some of the other ones, I think, say that as well. So

14 there's a mixing of those identities. So . . .

15 Q. Aside from your contractual relationships with

16 these cities and your CJA appointments, do you have any

17 other clients?

18 A. Right now, I don't. It's a blessing. You know,

19 I don't have to deal with a trust account. I -- I'm --

20 I've very intentionally tried to limit it to governmental

21 contracts and then certain civil rights issues potentially

22 that arise.

23 Q. Aside from your legal practices, do you have any

24 other significant sources of income?

25 A. Well, my wife earns a pretty good salary as a

11:08:33-11:09:26 Page 77

 1 professor.

 2 Q. Okay. Any others?

 3 A. Nope.

 4 Q. Have you performed any pro bono work in the last

 5 three years?

 6 A. I've done a fair amount of pro bono in, you know,

 7 advising people and whatnot. I always do some pro bono,

 8 yes.

 9 Q. Okay. Who have your pro bono clients been?

10 A. Well, there's a -- a lady on the reservation that

11 I've given services to, either reduced fee or -- she was a

12 domestic violence victim that I represented for years and

13 that really suffered a lot.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. And so I was compelled -- I felt compelled to do

16 that. That would probably be the major one that I can

17 think of right now. But I've been awarded, you know, top

18 50 pro bono attorney in the state at least a couple of

19 times --

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. -- in last, I don't know, 10, 15 years. So . . .

22 Q. And so can you think of any other major pro bono

23 clients that you've had?

24 A. Not major ones recently that would . . .

25 Q. Okay. And when you perform pro bono work, do you

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(19) Pages 74 - 77
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

11:09:43-11:10:55 Page 78

 1 do that in your individual capacity or through your PC?

 2 A. Well, it's always -- in the pleadings it will say

 3 "Mik -- Mikkel Jordahl, PC" on it. So it's through --

 4 any -- any representation that I do is through my

 5 corporation, and that's so that malpractice will apply and

 6 it's clear what it is.

 7 Q. What's your approximate net income for the last

 8 three years?

 9 A. You're talking about net? Gee, I'm going to have

10 to guess here.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. I think this year it will probably gross -- well,

13 gross is around 170,000. When I take out voluntary

14 contributions for retirement, which are taken out of, you

15 know, the total thing -- it ends up about some $54,000,

16 business expenses, et cetera -- it whittles it down to

17 about 100,000 or so. And in two previous years, probably

18 a bit less, because the Clarkdale contract, it boosted my

19 income. So . . .

20 Q. Okay. How much of your net income is derived

21 from your PC?

22 A. I'd say a hundred percent.

23 Q. Okay. Are there any limitations on your ability

24 to transfer funds belonging to your PC to your personal

25 accounts?

11:11:07-11:11:54 Page 79

 1 A. Well, just what the IRS would impose, you know,

 2 reporting requirements and things.

 3 Q. Any other restrictions?

 4 A. Well, I mean, I can't go over what the bank

 5 limits are, what they have. But no, nothing specifically

 6 that is out of the ordinary, if that's what you're saying.

 7 Q. Okay.

 8 A. I have to comply with, you know, bank laws, IRS,

 9 et cetera, but I -- I am my corporation. So . . .

10 Q. All right. Does your PC pay taxes itself or is

11 it a flow-through company?

12 A. It's -- it's one of those -- we're hearing a lot

13 about pass-throughs, that's what it is.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. So I'm hoping I'll get a tax break, but I'm not

16 sure.

17 Q. Okay. So do you pay taxes in Arizona?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you pay taxes in any other state?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Does your PC have an office?

22 A. Actually, I have a home office.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. And that was one of the benefits of having these

25 government contracts is I was able to close my office in

11:12:10-11:13:09 Page 80

 1 Flagstaff.

 2 Q. Okay. When did you have an office in Flagstaff?

 3 A. Most of my professional life. I mean, when I

 4 worked with DNA-People's Legal Services, Coconino Legal

 5 Aid, I had an office there. I had my own private practice

 6 office since 2003. It was in a couple of different

 7 locations in Flagstaff.

 8 Q. Okay.

 9 A. I would say about two and a half, three years

10 ago, I -- my wife and I moved to Sedona, and from then on

11 I've had a home office.

12 Q. Okay. Do clients ever come to your home office?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. Not a single one has.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. And hopefully they won't. Especially in criminal

18 law.

19 Q. That makes sense.

20 Does your PC have any debt?

21 A. No.

22 Q. What are the major assets of your PC?

23 A. Well, I'd like to think me. But other than that,

24 I guess it would just be equipment. I suppose there's a

25 certain amount of goodwill. I'm not sure how these things

11:13:23-11:14:38 Page 81

 1 are valid in terms of, you know, business valuation. I

 2 think that's about it, yeah.

 3 Q. Okay. What kind of equipment?

 4 A. Well, you know, as we talked about before,

 5 computers, scanners, technology, things like that,

 6 printers. And then, of course, furniture, all kinds of

 7 things, files. You know, I have all my files from years,

 8 and all that. It has no inherent value whatsoever, I'm

 9 sure, but it's there.

10 Q. Could you ballpark the value of the tangible

11 assets owned by your PC?

12 A. I don't think it's worth that much. We have -- I

13 mean, what's a seven-year-old Dell worth? Probably almost

14 nothing. My laptop, my printers, all that. I mean, the

15 technology, I don't know, 6-, $7,000 total.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. Something like that. Furniture may be a similar

18 amount. I mean, we're not dentists, so it's a lot

19 easier --

20 Q. Sure.

21 A. -- to set up. So you can quote me on that.

22 Q. So your PC has a contract with the Coconino Jail

23 District --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- correct?

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(20) Pages 78 - 81
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

11:15:21-11:16:07 Page 82

 1 Is a copy of that contract attached as

 2 Exhibit 3 to your declaration?

 3 A. It looks like it, yes.

 4 Q. What kind of services do you perform for the jail

 5 district?

 6 A. It's an interesting and fairly unique contract.

 7 Basically, instead of the county jail being on the hook

 8 for a law library, case law -- it comes out of Arizona, in

 9 fact -- allows services to be contracted for in lieu of

10 the law library. So I provide services -- when an inmate

11 requests my services, they have to check a form on which

12 three basic areas it is, whether it's -- extradition is

13 one area --

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. -- habeas corpus is another, and conditions of

16 confinement is the third.

17 And then if someone is unrepresented, I also

18 provide services of helping research and draft documents

19 for them since they don't have access to a law library

20 without representation.

21 So basically the scope is I get that

22 request; I will go, then, visit the inmate. I usually

23 lump together two or three of them, inmates, and then I

24 will address their issues. A lot of it deals with

25 advising inmates pursuant to the -- what is it? Prison

11:16:24-11:17:28 Page 83

 1 Reform Litigation Act. They have to exhaust their

 2 internal remedies, and tell them they need to do that.

 3 They need to file grievances. And then a lot of it is --

 4 frankly, is running interference with the jail and

 5 resolving problems. So that's what it is.

 6 Q. When did you first bid on the contract with the

 7 jail district?

 8 A. You know, I don't recall the exact year, but I

 9 think it's been -- I know I've been through at least three

10 contract renewals, maybe four. And they're either three11 or four-year terms. So my best guess is about 12 years.

12 So -- and before that, I actually represented the inmates

13 in a class action lawsuit that was down here, and that's

14 how this kind of came about, through that, the idea of

15 this contract. And so . . .

16 Q. Okay. Can you describe the bidding process for

17 those contracts?

18 A. Yeah. Every -- it's every four years. They put

19 out a bid, and it's a call to attorneys in the

20 communities -- I think it goes to the bar -- Coconino Bar

21 Association, and each time I've been the guy. So --

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. That's been chosen. It's a competitive

24 situation. Every four years the annual addendum is --

25 that's not a bid situation, it's just a certification, I

11:17:44-11:18:48 Page 84

 1 guess. So it's not thrown out to annual bids.

 2 Q. Okay. When you submit a bid every four years

 3 then, what's involved with your submissions to the jail

 4 district?

 5 A. Well, it's a very exhaustive and -- and thank God

 6 I've got it on my computer. I can just update it. But it

 7 talks about my philosophy and how I would approach the

 8 contract. I think what the jail folks like is that my

 9 focus is on solving problems, and I view myself as sort of

10 an ombudsperson for the inmates and dealing with their

11 issues. And if I feel like there's something to it -- an

12 awful lot of the requests are somewhat -- I mean, in my

13 opinion -- somewhat frivolous, you know, it's a lack of

14 understanding of what civil rights an inmate may or may

15 not have. I mean, it's as you can imagine. You know,

16 people complaining about no chunky peanuts in the peanut

17 butter. So, you know, things -- it could be that bad.

18 But then it could be also things like the

19 right to religious worship, things that are legitimate

20 issues.

21 I know there's one fellow -- we're talking

22 about religion a bit here. There's a Muslim inmate that

23 just wanted to know what direction Mecca was and what time

24 of day to pray, and we were able to work that out. You

25 know, online I was able to find, for Flagstaff, what times

11:19:03-11:19:54 Page 85

 1 of day, five times a day, it would be. The jail was able

 2 to put a clock where he could see it outside of his -- and

 3 then give him the direction for Mecca. And, you know,

 4 that was one thing.

 5 There have also been Jewish inmates about

 6 food, you know, kosher diets, things like that, where we

 7 go into it. And these are all -- I'm sure you're aware of

 8 constitutional rights that even inmates retain. So those

 9 are just a couple of issues. There are all kinds of

10 issues.

11 Q. So like RLUIPA?

12 A. What's that?

13 Q. So like RLUIPA?

14 A. What's RLUIPA?

15 Q. Religious liberties --

16 A. For incarcerated people?

17 Q. Yeah.

18 A. Yeah, I haven't heard it termed that way.

19 Q. Are there interviews as part of the bidding

20 process?

21 A. No. It has always been just written submissions.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. As far as I know, yeah.

24 Q. When do you typically get paid for the services

25 you provide?

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(21) Pages 82 - 85
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

11:20:10-11:21:29 Page 86

 1 A. I get paid on a monthly basis. I submit an

 2 invoice at the beginning of the month, and they pay me for

 3 that entire month.

 4 Q. Has your PC been involved in providing services

 5 to the jail district continuously since your first

 6 contract?

 7 A. Yes.

 8 Q. Okay. So it's never lapsed?

 9 A. Right.

10 Q. When was the last time the contract was bid out?

11 A. Well, it would have been this -- 2016, whenever

12 that -- okay, I signed -- let's see here.

13 This one says January of 2017. I probably

14 was notified of my acceptance maybe a month or so before

15 that.

16 Q. Okay. Do you know if there were any other

17 bidders the last time?

18 A. Oh, I know there were, yes. I don't know who

19 they were, but I was told there were several. So . . .

20 Q. Who are the primary decision makers for awarding

21 the contract?

22 A. Well, I would think the primary one now would be

23 Commander Figueroa, and then his various lieutenants.

24 There is a jail district -- Coconino County Jail District,

25 and they have a board there that is comprised of -- I

11:21:42-11:22:45 Page 87

 1 believe it's a Board of Supervisors, County Board of

 2 Supervisors, and probably the Sheriff, and they make the

 3 ultimate decision, I think.

 4 Q. Okay. Do you know any of them?

 5 A. Yeah. I know some, yeah.

 6 Q. Okay. How long have you known them?

 7 MS. BRODY: Object to form.

 8 THE WITNESS: Well, we can go down the list

 9 if you want.

10 MR. ENSIGN: Sure.

11 THE WITNESS: Of the defendants listed here,

12 Matt Ryan, I've known him for at least 12 years; Lena

13 Fowler I have met, but I don't -- can't say that I really

14 know her; Liz Archuleta, I have known for probably

15 20 years; Art Babbott, I've known him for many years,

16 maybe 10 years; Jim Parks I know a little bit. I don't

17 know the county treasurer here, but that wasn't your

18 question. I don't really know the current sheriff, Jim

19 Driscoll; and -- okay.

20 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

21 Q. Have you ever discussed the Act with any of them?

22 A. I've discussed it with Matt Figueroa and a couple

23 of his lieutenants. Because when I first saw this, I was

24 just so surprised, saying "What the heck is this doing in

25 my contract?" You know, I had -- I didn't know where it

11:22:58-11:23:51 Page 88

 1 came from.

 2 And so Matt is -- it's Matt Figueroa -- was

 3 wondering why I wasn't returning the contract. And I said

 4 "Well, it's the addendum. And, you know, I'm having a

 5 real problem with that." And we didn't discuss it in

 6 detail then, but he had no idea the addendum was in there

 7 because it was something that was added, I think, to the

 8 contract by -- I don't know if it was the county attorney

 9 or someone that was trying to bring the county into

10 compliance with the new law.

11 And so then we finally discussed it, we met.

12 And I said it's Israel anti-boycott stuff. You know, I

13 was like, "I have a problem with that. I think it

14 violates my rights, constitutional rights."

15 And he was, "Oh, well" -- you know, he was

16 thinking it was a problem with the scope of the contract

17 and things like that.

18 And so I don't know if you want me to

19 expound or go get into --

20 Q. Sure.

21 A. -- this, but you'll probably ask anyway so let me

22 get it out there.

23 But basically, I said I have a real problem

24 with this and, if I sign, it's going to be under protest,

25 and I wanted to reserve my rights to challenge this law.

11:24:05-11:25:01 Page 89

 1 Q. And when did that conversation occur?

 2 A. Well, it would have been right before I

 3 ultimately signed my letter of protest, whenever that was,

 4 but probably within, you know, three or four weeks before

 5 that time.

 6 Q. Okay.

 7 A. You know, so it would have been the end of --

 8 what is that? 2016, I think.

 9 Q. Okay. Aside from that conversation, did you have

10 any other conversations or email exchanges regarding the

11 Act?

12 A. Meaning -- with -- with whom?

13 Q. Let's start with Matt Figueroa.

14 A. I have, yeah, since -- since filing this lawsuit,

15 you know, because I was concerned that I could lose the --

16 the contract. You know, I wanted to continue providing

17 services. So there is email correspondence. I'm happy to

18 provide that to you.

19 And basically he was thankful for bringing

20 up the idea. I talked with the county attorney, Bill

21 Ring, he's an old friend of mine from Coconino County.

22 You know, we talked on the phone just little bit. Not

23 about the case, because I didn't want to get him in

24 trouble because I'm actually the plaintiff. I just let

25 him know that this is coming down the pike. And he hadn't

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(22) Pages 86 - 89
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

11:25:14-11:26:26 Page 90

 1 seen it yet, so I put him in touch with my attorney,

 2 Kathy.

 3 And I think they were very relieved to know

 4 that I would continue providing the services and -- you

 5 know, I expect to get paid on those. But they are not

 6 able to pay me at this time. So I'm providing the

 7 services, I'm submitting the invoices, and I'm not getting

 8 paid. I think I will get paid. I think we'll win this

 9 lawsuit -- no disrespect -- but -- so that's the status of

10 things.

11 So it did -- yeah, there is communication --

12 recent communication over my actions now. I didn't want

13 them to freak out. I was saying it's not about the

14 County, it's about -- you know, the County has no role in

15 this really, other than the State, as it -- as it has want

16 to do, preempt every area of, you know, local control

17 practically, whether it's plastic bags or boycotting a

18 foreign country, you know. So I don't hold them

19 responsible for this. I hold your clients responsible.

20 So . . .

21 Q. So aside from the conversation with Matt Figueroa

22 you were discussing earlier, did you have any other

23 conversations or email exchanges with Matt Figueroa prior

24 to the filing of this lawsuit that relates to the Act?

25 A. I think a few days before filing I sent Figueroa

11:26:50-11:27:45 Page 91

 1 an email -- and also Bill Ring, the county attorney. And

 2 I said I'm -- thanks for your patience on not -- I had

 3 received an email, I think from Figueroa -- and you'll get

 4 this if you want it. Oh, I had submitted my bill for

 5 December, and he said, "Hey, we can't pay you until we get

 6 this back in, you know. Can you sign the darn thing?"

 7 And then I responded later saying, "I'm having a problem

 8 with this certification, and bear with me. I'm looking

 9 into it." And then we filed suit a few days later.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. Long answer, short question.

12 Q. Can you think of any other conversations or email

13 exchanges?

14 A. With those folks --

15 Q. Yeah.

16 A. -- about the certification?

17 I'm sure in 2017, when I filed the thing,

18 there was some clarification. There was -- I think I

19 spoke about that, about my objections to this, and that I

20 would be signing it under protest.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. And that seemed to appease them. All they want

23 is my signature. I don't think they care, you know,

24 personally, but that's my speculation.

25 Q. Okay. So what's involved with a -- when your

11:28:06-11:29:08 Page 92

 1 contract gets renewed?

 2 A. Gee, I've got to jump through a bunch of hoops

 3 annually too. I've got to show that I have all these

 4 different types of insurance. They need, believe it or

 5 not, car insurance, even though there's not a chance in

 6 hell that I will give an inmate that I'm providing

 7 services to in the jail a ride in my car. So they need a

 8 certain amount. They need a certain amount of malpractice

 9 insurance, that are all quite high. And you guys are

10 government attorneys, you know about this. I mean, all

11 these things they make you do. I think there was various

12 unemployment insurance things. What else? I'm sure I'm

13 leaving some things out, but there's a lot of different --

14 different things that end up costing a fair amount of

15 money to cover. So . . .

16 Q. Okay. Aside from proof of insurance, can you

17 think of any other requirements for the annual renewals?

18 A. I think that's about it, various types of

19 insurance. And then I don't think there's anything extra

20 that I have to renew, other than now this anti-Israel

21 stuff.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. Yeah. And I don't know -- well, let's take a

24 look at the addendum. Is that in here?

25 Q. I believe it is.

11:29:33-11:30:59 Page 93

 1 A. It should be. I think it's the last page.

 2 Insurance -- yeah, commercial general

 3 liability. Even though I have a home office, never see an

 4 inmate, let alone a client, I have to have all this stuff,

 5 auto -- auto policy, worker's comp, professional

 6 liability. Naming the County as additional insured. So

 7 it's all CYA insurance of the County. But there's also

 8 this -- the boycott thing that goes on for page and a

 9 half.

10 Q. Okay. Is Exhibit 3 to your declaration the last

11 contract that you signed with the jail district?

12 A. It looks like it, yes.

13 Q. Did that contract expire on June 30th, 2017?

14 A. Looks like it, yeah, just under Term of

15 Agreement.

16 Q. And you've continued to work for the jail

17 district after the expiration of this contract?

18 A. Oh, let me see. Yes.

19 Q. Are you performing the same scope of work for the

20 jail district that you provided before the contract

21 lapsed?

22 A. Yeah, exactly the same.

23 Q. What's the last month that you were paid for?

24 A. I was paid -- I was paid in November for the

25 month of November. And I submitted my December invoice,

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(23) Pages 90 - 93
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

11:31:18-11:32:25 Page 94

 1 that's when Figueroa contacted me and said, "Hey, where is

 2 your contract? We need you to get it in," that's when we

 3 had the whole correspondence about this.

 4 And then also he responded saying, "We can't

 5 pay you until you sign it." Because they had to have a --

 6 some sort of requisition from the county to get the funds

 7 to do that. They couldn't do it until they have the

 8 signed addendum. So . . .

 9 Q. Okay.

10 A. And I'm still submitting the invoices. I've

11 submitted one for January of this month, with the

12 understanding that they say that they're unable to pay me

13 until this is resolved.

14 Q. Okay. Has anyone offered to help get you paid?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Has anyone told you that you can expect to be

17 paid?

18 A. I think that's the understanding, that either I

19 will be forced to sign the addendum after the legal

20 process goes through, even the parts that I object to, if

21 I want to keep the contract, or we'll win at this and I

22 won't have to sign. We'll delete that portion of the

23 con- -- the addendum.

24 Q. Okay. So is it your understanding that you will

25 be paid for these months of service if you sign the

11:32:37-11:33:54 Page 95

 1 certification?

 2 A. That's my belief, yeah.

 3 Q. Roughly, what percentage of your gross income

 4 comes from this contract?

 5 A. Well, I think -- oh, gross income. It's -- I

 6 think my -- it's approximately 10 percent.

 7 Q. Is this contract profitable to you relative to

 8 the other work you perform?

 9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How does this contract compare to the other

11 contracts you have in terms of hourly compensation?

12 A. I haven't broken -- none of the contracts are by

13 hour. But what I -- maybe the best way to explain is -- I

14 think with the jail contract, currently it's about -- ends

15 up being over $18,000 per year; the Cottonwood contract

16 gross is about $94,000, and, of course, you know, I have

17 to pay that assistant and whatnot. There are other

18 expenses. Clarkdale, I believe it's in the neighborhood

19 of $45,000. And then the public defending contracts are

20 per client; I think in Sedona it's $550 per misdemeanor

21 client. The CJA contract is by the hour, that's, I

22 believe, up to about -- I don't know if you're aware --

23 but about $130 an hour.

24 Q. Okay. So in terms of time that you expend for

25 these various contracts, how does this jail district

11:34:13-11:35:18 Page 96

 1 contract compare with your other contracts in terms of

 2 compensation you receive per hour that you work?

 3 A. Well, I'd say I probably do a similar amount of

 4 work on the jail contract as I do for the Clarkdale

 5 contract. That might be perhaps a little less, maybe like

 6 25 hours a month or something for Clarkdale. It's

 7 probably less in terms of the jail. But I'm thinking at

 8 least 10, 15 hours a month. These are guesses.

 9 Q. Sure. Would you say the Clarkdale contract is

10 more profitable to you then?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Have you made any efforts to secure alternative

13 work if you could no longer perform the contract?

14 A. No.

15 I take that back. I did see a notice from

16 the ACLU that they were looking for three different

17 attorneys, and I was happy to receive that. And I thought

18 that would be interesting. That was about it. So I

19 didn't go beyond that.

20 Q. Okay.

21 MR. SKINNER: This might be a good time to

22 take a break for lunch. Or no? That work for you guys?

23 MS. BRODY: How much longer are you

24 expecting to go?

25 MR. SKINNER: I'm not sure. We'll have to

11:35:35-12:55:26 Page 97

 1 look and talk. But certainly -- certainly we'll be

 2 continuing after lunch for some period of time.

 3 MS. BRODY: Okay.

 4 (An off-the-record discussion ensued.)

 5 (The lunch recess was taken.)

 6 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

 7 Q. So kind of returning to the topic of your

 8 boycott. Are there Israeli companies that you would do

 9 business with?

10 A. I'm sure there are. I can't think of any right

11 offhand.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. Because that hasn't been a focus of mine.

14 In my trip, I certainly, you know, booked

15 hotels in -- with Israeli hotel owners, you know, traveled

16 around the country, all that. So yeah. The answer is

17 yes, there are companies that I would still purchase

18 products from, whether it's, you know, in that category in

19 particular.

20 Q. Okay. And how would you determine which ones you

21 would do business with?

22 A. Well, they were almost all little local shops or

23 whatever, restaurants, hotels. None of them were -- that

24 I was aware of -- had any direct links to perpetuating the

25 occupation.

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(24) Pages 94 - 97
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

12:55:42-12:56:36 Page 98

 1 Q. Okay. Shifting gears slightly. Do you take that

 2 HP mobile printer you referenced earlier with you on trips

 3 to the jail district?

 4 A. I may have to -- Well, I'm not going to print

 5 anything out in the jail. But there are occasions when I,

 6 yes, have to draft something for an inmate, and it would

 7 be very helpful for me as I just go to the coffee shop

 8 nearby, print it out, and then bring it back to the

 9 jail --

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. -- and give it to the inmate.

12 Q. You're not allowed to take that --

13 A. I don't think I could take it into the jail, you

14 know, because it's not set up that way. I'm still through

15 a glass booth when I interview inmates.

16 Q. Okay. How did anyone know that you're engaged in

17 a boycott?

18 A. Well, probably from me either telling them or me

19 speaking about it or communicating it via writing about

20 it, I would think.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. Or I guess this case has gotten a little bit of

23 coverage in the press, not that much, so that way people

24 might read it.

25 Q. Okay.

12:57:04-12:58:00 Page 99

 1 A. In fact, I went to my uncle's funeral Friday, in

 2 Sun City, and one of these old friends of his father came

 3 up, "I want to hear all about this lawsuit." So he knew

 4 about it. So . . .

 5 Q. Okay.

 6 A. I was surprised.

 7 Q. Would anyone be able to perceive that you're

 8 engaged in this boycott unless you told them?

 9 A. Certainly, through -- by reading the pleadings,

10 by, you know, looking at the press. Yeah, there are a

11 multitude of ways.

12 Q. So prior to this lawsuit being filed, how would

13 someone perceive that you were engaged in this boycott

14 aside from you telling them or some of your prior

15 statements about the boycott?

16 A. I think that would be the way of me just sharing,

17 you know, my thoughts and -- at that point, because I

18 don't think I -- it was really the trip to Palestine,

19 Israel last spring that really convinced me that I really

20 needed to ramp this up and oppose the law. And that --

21 that really motivated me because I was so kind of shocked

22 with what I'd seen and heard and the people I talked to.

23 So before that, I wasn't that vocal about

24 it. I mean, in college I was somewhat vocal. I started a

25 chapter of the Palestine Human Rights Campaign, and that

12:58:26-12:59:15 Page 100

 1 was looking at advocating what was then a radical notion

 2 of two-state solution, was securing for both peoples.

 3 Q. Would someone looking at just your purchasing

 4 decisions alone be able to perceive your boycott?

 5 MS. BRODY: Object to foundation.

 6 THE WITNESS: Well, I mean, if you looked at

 7 my credit card statement, I don't think you would deduce

 8 that, you know.

 9 I think you would have to define that, and I

10 think that would be pretty impossible. Like to say, "I

11 notice there's no Caterpillar here," you know, or, "I

12 notice there's no HP," even, you know. There's so many

13 thing that one purchases.

14 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

15 Q. Do you think someone seeing your HP printer would

16 discern that you were engaged in a boycott?

17 MS. BRODY: Object. Foundation.

18 MR. ENSIGN: You can answer.

19 THE WITNESS: I think it would probably go

20 the opposite way. If they see an HP printer and they know

21 that I filed this lawsuit, they would probably say, "What

22 the heck are you doing? I thought you were boycotting."

23 And then I would have to explain to them that I felt like

24 I was forced by the certification that I had to buy this

25 thing.

12:59:25-13:00:25 Page 101

 1 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

 2 Q. Okay. If you had purchased a Lexmark printer

 3 instead, do you think they would be able to perceive that

 4 that was as a result of your boycott?

 5 MS. BRODY: Object. Foundation.

 6 THE WITNESS: I don't see how they would

 7 know just by -- I mean, you could ask me that about --

 8 "Well, I see you have an Apple computer here," or -- you

 9 know, that would be pure speculation.

10 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

11 Q. Do you own any computers with Intel processors?

12 A. I do. Yeah, I think the Dell has -- has one.

13 Q. Have you used Google?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Have you ever used Google Maps?

16 A. I have. I prefer another one, but I have used

17 it.

18 Q. Okay. What sort of telecommunication equipment

19 do you have for your PC?

20 A. I have Safari. Is that what you're taking about?

21 Q. No. And so kind of confusing.

22 A. I'm not sure what --

23 Q. By "your PC," I meant your public company.

24 A. Okay.

25 Q. I realize that's pretty confusing --

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(25) Pages 98 - 101
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

13:00:33-13:01:44 Page 102

 1 A. Yeah, right.

 2 Q. -- immediately following the last question.

 3 MS. BRODY: Excuse me, you mean the

 4 professional corporation?

 5 MR. ENSIGN: Exactly.

 6 THE WITNESS: So can you ask that again,

 7 then?

 8 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

 9 Q. Sure. What telecommunication equipment does your

10 public company have?

11 A. Yeah. Well, I use Verizon for my telephone, and

12 I still have a Yahoo account for email, which should

13 probably be changed. I have also a Gmail, which I use for

14 my Clarkdale cases. And I have -- I use some company that

15 provides faxes over the Internet. I forget the name.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. And for any of these companies you've asked me

18 questions about, I'm not aware of if they have connections

19 with, you know, the occupied territories. I mean, I have

20 no idea.

21 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any officials in state

22 government taking actions to enforce the Act?

23 A. I'm not -- I'm not aware of it. I know it has

24 the chilling impact on people speaking. So -- but I'm not

25 aware of any specific things. I know that there's

13:02:00-13:03:22 Page 103

 1 supposed to be a list, a sort of blacklist of companies

 2 that is collected by one of the agencies of Arizona. I

 3 had been thinking about doing a public records request to

 4 see if there is anybody on there. I just don't know.

 5 Q. Are you aware of anyone taking enforcement action

 6 based on a certification that's submitted under the Act?

 7 A. Under the Arizona Act, no, I'm not aware of it.

 8 Q. Are you aware of the attorney general taking any

 9 actions with respect to the Act before December 7, 2017?

10 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

11 And if I may expound, I don't see the

12 primary purpose of the Act as catching people doing this

13 prohibited stuff. I see it as a concerted effort to chill

14 speech and suppress any possibility of speech in this

15 area. And I doubt we'll see many, you know, people losing

16 their contracts unless they make a public stand about it.

17 And I think, to this day, I risk -- you

18 know, the jail could easily just say, before we get our

19 preliminary junction, they could say, "Mik, we just can't

20 do this anymore. We're terminating the contract." So I

21 exposed myself to that.

22 Q. Are you aware of any officials in Coconino County

23 government taking actions to enforce the Act?

24 A. I don't think they have the right to enforce the

25 Act. So the answer is no.

13:03:42-13:05:14 Page 104

 1 Q. Are you aware of any officials in any political

 2 subdivision of the state taking action to enforce the Act?

 3 A. I'm not aware.

 4 Q. Are you aware of any instant in which a state or

 5 local official has questioned the truthfulness of any

 6 certification submitted under the Act?

 7 A. I haven't heard of that, no.

 8 Q. Circling back a bit, I'd like to go back to

 9 Exhibit 2.

10 A. Okay.

11 Q. And I'd like to direct you, confusingly enough,

12 to Exhibit 2.

13 (An off-the-record discussion ensued.)

14 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

15 Q. And if you can look at Exhibit 2 of Exhibit 2.

16 A. Okay. Okay. Does that start out with my letter

17 of October 14th?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Okay.

20 Q. So do you recognize this?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. What is it?

23 A. It's my letter stating my objection to the

24 addendum provision requiring me to sign the objected-to

25 certification.

13:05:23-13:06:32 Page 105

 1 Q. In that letter you state that you were signing

 2 not in your personal capacity unrelated to any government

 3 contract. Is that correct?

 4 A. Right.

 5 Q. Is it your belief that the Act does not apply to

 6 you in your personal capacity?

 7 A. That's the position I maintain. However, I'm not

 8 a hundred percent sure of that. I don't know if I'm --

 9 you know, it depends on your interpretation of the word

10 "affiliate." And I just don't know. Would I be an

11 affiliate of my company, as I'm an owner? Same thing

12 would apply if I set up a separate nonprofit, you know,

13 that would clearly be an affiliate of the other one. So I

14 just don't know a hundred percent sure, but that's -- I

15 was trying to carve out a little area for me to

16 participate in constitutionally protected speech as a

17 person.

18 Q. Has anyone ever challenged your assertion that

19 the Act does not apply to you in your personal capacity?

20 A. Nobody has challenged that.

21 Q. Do you believe that anything in the Act prevents

22 you from saying anything in your personal capacity?

23 A. Yes. I think it -- one of the things is I feel

24 inhibited from speaking -- taking a prominent role in the

25 issue. I guess I've thrown myself into the storm by this

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(26) Pages 102 - 105
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

13:06:52-13:08:03 Page 106

 1 point. But I feel very reluctant to speak about it in the

 2 communities where I have contracts because then I think it

 3 will -- it might provoke a review of my contract to see if

 4 I'm in compliance or not. So that's my answer.

 5 Q. Do you believe that anything in the Act actually

 6 prohibits any speech by you?

 7 MS. BRODY: Object. Form.

 8 THE WITNESS: What it does is it says you

 9 can speak, but you can't earn a living if your sole source

10 is from these contracts. Basically, it's a government

11 litmus test for handing out public contracts, and we all

12 know those are illegal, unless it's really involved with

13 the -- you know, the scope of services.

14 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

15 Q. Do you believe that anything in the Act forces

16 you to say anything in your personal capacity?

17 MS. BRODY: Object. Form.

18 MR. ENSIGN: What's the basis of your

19 objection?

20 MS. BRODY: Speculation, legal conclusion.

21 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

22 Q. Is it your understanding that the Act forces you

23 to say anything in your personal capacity?

24 A. Well, it forces me to sign something I don't

25 believe in as a human being, that's for sure, and that's

13:08:21-13:09:44 Page 107

 1 on behalf of my corporation. But it's also compelling me

 2 to state something that I disagree with morally and

 3 religiously and as a human being. So otherwise I don't

 4 think it -- other than that, I'm not sure it forces me

 5 that I must say something, but it does require me to do

 6 that, and that violates my sense of justice and my moral

 7 beliefs.

 8 Q. Do you believe -- is it your understanding that

 9 anything in the Act limits how you may participate in any

10 organization in your personal capacity?

11 A. I think I can probably join various

12 organizations. The problem is if me, as an individual,

13 gets associated with my legal practice and legal entity,

14 that that can draw certain inferences and get me in

15 trouble with the contracts. So that's not something I've

16 taken on as a sort of central sort of role in promoting

17 the political issues that I would like to see addressed.

18 After, hopefully, from my point of view, the

19 lawsuit is successful, I fully intend to do that both in

20 my legal capacity and -- and as an individual.

21 Q. Is it your understanding that anything in the Act

22 mandates that you join an organization in your personal

23 capacity?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Is it your understanding that anything in the Act

13:10:05-13:11:14 Page 108

 1 would prevent you from donating money to an organization

 2 in your personal capacity?

 3 A. Well, to the extent that it associates my firm

 4 with me, it makes me cautious in doing so. I mean, I have

 5 sent -- it was a $50 fee -- I think annual fee to Jewish

 6 Voice for Peace for membership.

 7 But, I mean, in terms of large -- a larger

 8 donation or something like that that becomes more public,

 9 I think that that could impact my work under contract.

10 So -- so I'm reluctant to do that at this point because of

11 the certification requirements.

12 Q. But is it your understanding that anything in the

13 Act actually prohibits you from doing so in your personal

14 capacity?

15 A. Nothing prohibits me from doing so. I'm

16 concerned about the impacts of doing that.

17 Q. Is it your understanding that anything in the Act

18 would prevent you from providing pro bono services to an

19 organization in your personal capacity?

20 A. Well, number one, I don't do that because it

21 wouldn't be covered by malpractice insurance. So I

22 guess -- I guess the premise of the question is -- is not

23 applicable. Or maybe you could rephrase it in a way that

24 would work.

25 Q. Sure. So understanding that there might be

13:11:37-13:13:07 Page 109

 1 implications for malpractice, is there -- is it your

 2 understanding that there is anything in the Act that

 3 directly prohibits you from providing pro bono services to

 4 an organization in your personal capacity?

 5 MS. BRODY: Object to form.

 6 MR. ENSIGN: You can answer.

 7 THE WITNESS: I think I could, but I would

 8 not because it would not be covered by insurance.

 9 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

10 Q. Do you believe you have any First Amendment right

11 to have the state subsidize your boycott?

12 A. No.

13 Q. If we could turn back to your declaration. And

14 we've largely already covered this.

15 But you say in paragraph 24, "Were it not

16 for the Act's certification requirement, I would extend my

17 personal boycott participation to my firm's consumer

18 choices." Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is that still the case today?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So I would like to direct you to Exhibit 1 of

23 your declaration.

24 MS. BRODY: That is Exhibit 1 of Exhibit 2,

25 right?

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(27) Pages 106 - 109
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

13:13:18-13:14:44 Page 110

 1 MR. ENSIGN: That's correct.

 2 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

 3 Q. Do you recognize this document?

 4 A. Yes.

 5 Q. What is it?

 6 A. It is the certification that I was surprised to

 7 find attached to the 2016 contract for the jail services.

 8 Q. Is this the certification that you understand the

 9 Act to require?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is it your understanding that the Act requires

12 anything that is not covered in this certification?

13 A. I would have to review the statute again to give

14 you a definitive answer, but I think it covered most

15 things there. I mean, it's basically verbatim from the

16 statute, as I recall.

17 Q. Do you see anything in this certification that

18 asks your PC about its beliefs?

19 A. Well, yes.

20 I mean, it basically makes me set forth

21 about discrimination that I would not discriminate --

22 based on clause B here -- in a matter that discriminates

23 on the basis of nationality, national origin, religion,

24 not based on a valid business reason -- I have to sign off

25 on that. So that it's basically saying I will not do, as

13:15:10-13:16:36 Page 111

 1 well section A, it forced me to say -- and of course in B,

 2 I would never discriminate based on any of those

 3 categories. However, in section A, I would like to be

 4 able to boycott the companies that support the resistance

 5 to the occupation -- I'm sorry -- boycott companies that

 6 foster the occupation.

 7 Q. Okay. So the certification asks about the

 8 conduct that your business might be engaged in. Is that

 9 correct?

10 A. Yeah. That's correct.

11 Q. Where in there do you read it to be inquiring as

12 to your beliefs rather than your conduct?

13 A. Well, I think, for me, I can't really separate

14 the two. And to me this is belief and conduct. And here

15 it's -- I'm being asked to suspend my -- my beliefs here

16 almost to go -- I really object to signing this because I

17 don't believe in it, and that's what it boils down to.

18 And I understand what you're getting at is,

19 does it make you believe something or not? I don't think

20 I have to, say, be a Communist to object to a Communist

21 avowal that used to be in various certifications.

22 Q. So to be clear then, do you know that the

23 certification requirement could deny you a State contract

24 where you were not engaged in any conduct that the

25 certification requirement prohibits, but that you

13:16:57-13:18:24 Page 112

 1 disagreed with the Act?

 2 A. No, I don't -- I don't believe that. I think

 3 if it -- it goes to conduct, but it really is intertwined

 4 with belief in terms of people are forced to sign these if

 5 they want to continue working.

 6 Q. Do you see anything in the certification

 7 requirement that requires your PC to have any practitioner

 8 beliefs?

 9 MS. BRODY: Object to form.

10 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do in terms of the

11 nondiscrimination and all that.

12 I guess we went into this already a bit, but

13 I believe it's in terms of the nondiscrimination for sure.

14 And I know these things -- these aren't just acts, these

15 are beliefs too, I think.

16 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

17 Q. So other than nondiscrimination, is there

18 anything in the certification requirement that requires

19 you to have particular beliefs?

20 MS. BRODY: Object to form.

21 MR. ENSIGN: You can answer.

22 THE WITNESS: Again, I just don't see belief

23 and conduct as being separate, and I think it forces me to

24 adopt a position that I don't believe in. And I'll leave

25 it at that.

13:18:47-13:20:19 Page 113

 1 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

 2 Q. Do you understand the certification requirement

 3 to say anything in particular?

 4 A. Sure. It says what it says, which is that no

 5 governmental entity -- and the state legislature again,

 6 once again goes off and imposes this on cities, towns,

 7 counties, any governmental body, and says that if my

 8 entity participates in the boycott of companies that do

 9 business in the territories that are occupied, that those

10 governmental entities cannot enter into a contract. So I

11 think it very clearly says that.

12 Q. Okay. Leaving aside the certification itself, do

13 you understand the certification to require you to say

14 anything in particular as opposed to conduct that you

15 have -- engage in conduct that you believe has expressive

16 value?

17 MS. BRODY: I'm going to object to form.

18 You've asked the same question, like, five times now.

19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it absolutely makes me

20 say that I will not engage in -- in these activities. It

21 forces me to say that if I want to work.

22 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

23 Q. Do you understand anything in the certification

24 requirement to require your PC to join any organizations?

25 A. I don't see anything there.

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(28) Pages 110 - 113
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

13:20:31-13:21:43 Page 114

 1 Q. Do you see anything in the certification

 2 requirement that inquires about what organizations your PC

 3 belongs to?

 4 A. No.

 5 Q. Is there anything in the certification

 6 requirement that inquires about what organizations your PC

 7 has previously belonged to?

 8 A. No, there's nothing there.

 9 Q. Is there anything in the certification

10 requirement that mandates that your PC join any

11 organization?

12 A. I think you just asked that. But no was the

13 answer again.

14 Q. Sorry. Do you see anything in the certification

15 requirement that mandates that your PC refrain from

16 joining any organization?

17 A. And again, no.

18 Q. Are you aware of anyone else in the state that is

19 objecting to this Act?

20 A. I'm sorry, I was thinking of your previous

21 question. I'm just reviewing this.

22 Okay. Could you ask that question again?

23 Q. Sure. Are you aware of anyone else in the state

24 with a contract with the State or its subdivisions that is

25 objecting to this Act?

13:21:53-13:23:16 Page 115

 1 A. Yes.

 2 Q. Okay. And who is that?

 3 A. Well, after this lawsuit was filed, I received an

 4 email completely out of the blue -- and I forget this

 5 person's name -- but he had a contract with -- I believe

 6 it was the Phoenix police to provide tape for them, you

 7 know, the tape that goes around crime scene zones. And he

 8 said he was refused a contract because he refused to sign

 9 that certification. He objected to it.

10 Q. Are you aware of anyone else?

11 A. I am aware of -- yes.

12 There is an architect in Tucson that had to

13 sign one or two of these contracts. I believe his name is

14 Corky Poster. And he had a couple of these contracts, but

15 he has employees and he didn't want to jeopardize

16 challenging it because he had employees. He was active in

17 the issue.

18 Q. Okay. Are you aware of anyone else?

19 A. I think that those are the people that I -- I

20 know there are many other people out there because almost

21 every contract in Arizona has this clause for business

22 services. But those are the two that I can think of right

23 now.

24 Q. So I'm going to hand you what I'd like to have

25 marked as Exhibit 3.

13:23:49-13:24:55 Page 116

 1 (Deposition Exhibit 3 was marked for

 2 identification.)

 3 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

 4 Q. Do you recognize this document?

 5 A. Yes.

 6 Q. What is it?

 7 A. It's the complaint in this case.

 8 Q. Have you read the final version of this complaint

 9 prior to filing?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is everything in the complaint accurate, to the

12 best of your knowledge?

13 A. Well, if this is what was filed -- and it looks

14 like it has the federal court caption on it -- yes, it

15 should be accurate.

16 Q. Can you read paragraph 17 of your complaint?

17 A. Yeah, it just recites the statute.

18 Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to believe that the

19 text of the Act is not accurately set forth here?

20 A. Well, I hope it's accurate. I mean, I don't have

21 the actual statute in front of me, but hopefully that's

22 accurate. That was the intent, and it looks the same.

23 Q. Okay. So I want to direct you to Section

24 35-393.01.A.

25 A. Uh-huh.

13:25:08-13:26:30 Page 117

 1 Q. Which states, "A public entity may not enter into

 2 a contract with a company to acquire or dispose of

 3 services, supplies, information technology or construction

 4 unless the contract includes a written certification that

 5 the company is not engaged in, and agrees for the duration

 6 of the contract to not engage in, a boycott of Israel."

 7 A. Uh-huh, yes.

 8 Q. Do you believe that anything in that section

 9 would prevent the State from entering into a contract with

10 an individual rather than a company?

11 MS. BRODY: Object to form.

12 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

13 Q. Is it your understanding that anything in the

14 section would prevent the State from entering into a

15 contract with an individual rather than a company?

16 A. I'm looking at the previous section to see

17 exactly what was defined here.

18 Well, the term "company" is defined, and

19 that includes -- and again, it includes an affiliate of

20 companies, and then we get back to the thing about am I,

21 as a sole owner of a company, an affiliate. I maintain

22 no. However, I'm not sure, as you know.

23 But sole proprietorship, that is -- that

24 would be outside of a corporate structure, which means

25 just me as an individual if I'm a sole proprietor. That's

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(29) Pages 114 - 117
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

13:27:05-13:27:57 Page 118

 1 absent a corporate entity. And so I think it would apply

 2 to, say, me, Mik Jordahl, as an attorney outside of my

 3 corporation. I would be the sole -- any income that came

 4 in not in the corporate umbrella would be a Schedule C

 5 type of thing with the IRS, so business income, and I

 6 would be a sole proprietor. So I think it would apply in

 7 that case.

 8 Q. All right. So I'd like to direct you to Section

 9 35-393.1.

10 A. 393 -- oh, 1, up above?

11 Q. Yeah.

12 A. Okay. Got it.

13 Q. Does that provide a definition of "boycott" for

14 purposes of the Act?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you believe the definition of "boycott"

17 prohibits any actual speech as opposed to conduct?

18 A. I believe it chills speech. I think it's focused

19 on conduct, and I think that's by intent to try to pass a

20 constitutional test. But I think its primary purpose is

21 to chill the speech that would go along with it.

22 Q. Okay. Leaving aside chill for the moment, do you

23 believe that anything in the definition of "boycott"

24 outright prohibits any speech?

25 (An off-the-record discussion ensued.)

13:28:20-13:29:26 Page 119

 1 (Deposition Exhibit 3 was re-marked for

 2 identification.)

 3 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I lost the question

 4 long ago. So . . .

 5 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

 6 Q. Leaving aside the concept of chill, do you see

 7 anything in the definition of "boycott" that outright

 8 prohibits any speech?

 9 A. I think it's focused on conduct. I think its

10 impact, again, is to chill speech, and it forces me to

11 sign something I don't believe in.

12 Q. But do you understand it to prohibit outright any

13 speech?

14 MS. BRODY: Object to form.

15 THE WITNESS: It doesn't say it's illegal to

16 say X, Y, or Z.

17 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

18 Q. Do you believe the definition -- is it -- Excuse

19 me.

20 Is it your understanding that the definition

21 "boycott" mandates any speech?

22 A. Yes. It mandates that I sign something that I

23 don't believe in and that I disagree with. And just like

24 those old-fashioned anti-Communist loyalty oaths that have

25 been struck down, it makes me sign something that violates

13:29:44-13:30:53 Page 120

 1 my political beliefs and moral sense- -- sensibilities.

 2 Q. Aside from the certification itself, do you

 3 believe that the definition of "boycott" mandates any

 4 speech?

 5 MS. BRODY: Object to form.

 6 MR. ENSIGN: What's the nature of the

 7 objection?

 8 MS. BRODY: You asked the question already.

 9 MR. ENSIGN: I just added the caveat in the

10 beginning that makes it a different question.

11 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm completely lost

12 now.

13 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

14 Q. Aside from the certification itself, do you

15 understand the definition "boycott" to mandate any

16 particular speech?

17 A. I don't think other than having -- forcing me to

18 sign the certification that I don't believe in, no.

19 Beyond that, no.

20 Q. Shifting gears a little bit.

21 Are you a member of the group Jewish Voice

22 for Peace?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How long have you been a member of the

25 organization?

13:31:07-13:32:33 Page 121

 1 A. I joined after I got back from my trip to

 2 Palestine and Israel, and I don't remember the exact

 3 month.

 4 Q. I'd like to direct you back to your declaration,

 5 which is marked as Exhibit 2.

 6 A. I have it here.

 7 Q. In paragraph 25 you state that "JVP" -- dot, dot,

 8 dot -- "has asked my firm to contribute office support and

 9 financial contributions."

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you believe that the Act would preclude you

12 from contributing to JVP in your personal capacity?

13 A. I think I've answered that before. It certainly

14 inhibits me from doing so because the association, you

15 know, creates problems for my firm.

16 Q. But do you understand the Act to be outright

17 prohibiting such donations?

18 A. I've maintained the position that it does not in

19 my personal capacity, but again, I can't be sure without

20 the definition of "affiliate."

21 Q. Are you aware of any other law that might prevent

22 you from donating to JVP in your personal capacity?

23 A. Well, I know there's discussions in Congress now

24 about -- actually, there's something called the

25 anti-Israel boycott Act, I don't know if you're familiar

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(30) Pages 118 - 121
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

13:33:00-13:34:36 Page 122

 1 with it. But it basically is -- it's fairly outrageous

 2 and it would call for imprisonment of people like me that

 3 would respond to the call -- international call for a

 4 boycott of Israel. I know about that. But that's going,

 5 you know, way beyond Arizona.

 6 Q. Can you think of any other law currently in

 7 effect that might prevent you from donating to JVP in your

 8 personal capacity?

 9 A. I can't think of any other Arizona law than this

10 one. And this one is -- marginally might apply to my

11 personal status.

12 Q. Do you understand anything in the certification

13 requirement or the Act that would prevent your PC from

14 providing office support to JVP?

15 A. Yes, I think it would. It would definitely call

16 it into question, because one of JVP's main central

17 platforms is its boycott. And if I'm actually supporting

18 that in my PC capacity, I think I come directly in

19 conflict with the law.

20 Q. So just so that I'm clear -- well, let's break

21 this into two different things.

22 Do you believe that there's anything in the

23 Act or certification requirement that would provide you --

24 that would prohibit you from providing office support to

25 JVP generally, not specifically directed at its boycott

13:34:52-13:36:17 Page 123

 1 efforts?

 2 MS. BRODY: Object to form.

 3 THE WITNESS: I think it would cross at

 4 least a gray line there, because that's one of the central

 5 purposes of JVP is the boycott. So I'm not sure how you

 6 could separate it out necessarily.

 7 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

 8 Q. And is the reason that you say that because

 9 you're concerned that such -- actually, never mind.

10 Turning back in your declaration, if you

11 could look at paragraph 9.

12 A. Okay.

13 Q. You state that you've "been moved by the 'Peace

14 Not Walls' campaign of the Evangelical Lutheran Church

15 (ELCA)." Is that correct?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. Are you a member of the Evangelical Lutheran

18 Church?

19 A. Certainly am historically. I mean, I'm not

20 belonging to a specific congregation right now. I take my

21 mother frequently to church -- she has Alzheimer's -- in

22 Flagstaff. I do what I can there. I have known the

23 Lutheran minister there very well and -- you know, so I

24 think to be an actual member you've got to, like,

25 officially sign and contribute. And I haven't done that,

13:36:32-13:37:34 Page 124

 1 but I've certainly participated a lot.

 2 Q. Okay. Do you adhere to the doctrines of the

 3 Evangelical Lutheran Church?

 4 A. Some of them I do, some of them I don't. You

 5 know, I'm somewhat of a wayward Lutheran, but I'm very

 6 affected by and embrace a lot of what it stands for. I

 7 mean, it's -- my whole lineage was this from, you know,

 8 great-grandparent, both grandparents, uncles, my father,

 9 you know, all have been Lutheran ministers, and that's had

10 a profound impact on me. And so I keep up with, you know,

11 what's going on within the Lutheran church.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. And I find that it's often a moral guide. I

14 don't believe everything. I mean, I'm not hook, line, and

15 sinker with all of the religious doctrine, but much of it

16 I am.

17 Q. Have you played any role in the development of

18 the Peace Not Walls campaign?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Have you ever donated to ELCA?

21 A. Well, yeah, sure, contributions on Sunday.

22 Q. Anything else?

23 A. I might have donated past years to specific

24 programs to aid, like, the homeless and things like that,

25 you know. But, I mean, we're talking about a whole

13:37:56-13:39:21 Page 125

 1 lifetime here.

 2 Q. Yeah. Have you ever donated to ELCA -- ELCA's

 3 Peace Not Walls campaign?

 4 A. No.

 5 Q. Have you ever performed pro bono work for the

 6 ELCA?

 7 A. No.

 8 Q. Has your PC ever donated to the ELCA?

 9 A. No.

10 Q. Has your PC ever worked pro bono for the ELCA?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So turning to paragraph 16 of your declaration,

13 you indicate that during the 2016 renewal of your

14 contract, quote, an official from the County asked me to

15 sign not only the standard paperwork, but also a new form

16 entitled "Certification Pursuant to A.R.S. Section

17 35-391.01." Is that correct?

18 A. Paragraph 16? Yes.

19 Q. Were you aware of the statute before that time?

20 A. No, I wasn't.

21 Q. In paragraph 19 you state that, "On October 14,

22 2016, I signed the certification under protest. I

23 returned the signed certification to an official at the

24 County. I also sent a copy of the signed form to Rose

25 Winkeler" -- dot, dot, dot -- "along with a letter

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(31) Pages 122 - 125
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

13:39:35-13:40:49 Page 126

 1 entitled 'Regarding: Israel Boycott Addendum to Inmate

 2 Civil Rights Advising Contract.'" Is that correct?

 3 A. Yes.

 4 Q. Is Exhibit 2 to your declaration a copy of that

 5 letter?

 6 A. Yes.

 7 Q. Why did you send that letter to Ms. Winkeler?

 8 A. Well, I believe she was the -- I'm trying to

 9 remember. I don't recall exactly. But since she is a

10 deputy county attorney, I likely would have been directed

11 to her and because it was a legal type of thing. I wanted

12 to make sure -- the county jail folks aren't lawyers, you

13 know, so I wanted to make sure, as a lawyer too, that I

14 was corresponding with the people that would represent

15 them. So I signed it to her -- sent it her. And I don't

16 recall if that was in response to being told that she was

17 the person to send it to or not. I just don't recall.

18 Q. Did you have any other conversations or

19 communications with other officials in Coconino County

20 government about the Act in 2016?

21 A. Yes. I think I mentioned that before. I talked

22 with Commander Matt Figueroa, a couple of his lieutenants

23 about it. They were as surprised as I was about this.

24 They thought I was complaining about something in the

25 actual -- you know, a substantive part of the contract,

13:40:59-13:42:05 Page 127

 1 not the addendum.

 2 Q. Okay. And that was in 2016?

 3 A. That would have been in 2016, yeah, right towards

 4 the end, just before I sent the letter.

 5 Q. Did you have any conversations with any other

 6 officials in Coconino County government about the Act in

 7 2017 prior to November 14th?

 8 A. I'm sorry, can you review the dates again?

 9 Q. Sure.

10 A. Which ones?

11 Q. Did you have any conversations in -- with

12 Coconino County government officials in 2017 prior to

13 November 14th?

14 A. Well, just the ones that we were talking about

15 here. I don't believe -- I think what I did at that time

16 was I sent an email to Bill Ring, who was the county

17 attorney at that time, and realized -- I'm stretching here

18 in my memory.

19 He was the county attorney-elect, and I

20 never got a response, and I never was sure that that went

21 through to him. And I think Rose was the one that I ended

22 up communicating with after that because Bill wasn't --

23 sorry -- Bill wasn't in office yet. He was winding down

24 his stuff. And the email I had for him was a former

25 county attorney email, he had worked there before, and I

13:42:22-13:43:13 Page 128

 1 was never convinced that went through or not. So . . .

 2 Q. Aside from this letter, did you have any

 3 communications with Rose Winkeler regarding the Act?

 4 A. I believe we may have had a phone call. You

 5 should probably ask her. Is she counsel on this for the

 6 County?

 7 Q. She is.

 8 A. Okay, good. I mean, you should ask her. I don't

 9 recall. I think I may have had -- I think she was the one

10 telling me that Bill was out and he wouldn't be in for a

11 certain amount of time. And I expressed my objections.

12 And I might have said that I would probably sign under

13 protest.

14 Q. Do you recall saying anything else to her?

15 A. I don't recall. I'm sure there was more to it

16 than that, I just don't remember.

17 Q. If you can take a look at your letter.

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. In it you state, "I do reserve my right to

20 challenge the law in the courts." Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Why didn't you bring a challenge prior to

23 November 14th, 2017, when you received the second

24 certification request?

25 A. Right. Well, I think there were a couple of

13:43:34-13:44:33 Page 129

 1 reasons. Number one, I wasn't ready to do that yet. I

 2 felt like I needed to investigate more. And I had planned

 3 this trip to Israel and Palestine, promised it forever for

 4 my son. If I had filed before then, it would have

 5 sabotaged that trip, and I likely would not have been

 6 allowed -- I would have been stopped at the border. They

 7 likely would not have allowed me to enter. And I'm quite

 8 sure that's the case right now after having filed.

 9 This is such an important event for me and

10 my son, as a father-and-son thing, that I didn't want to

11 jeopardize that. Also, I wanted to look into -- I've

12 always been interested in the issue, obviously, you know

13 that from my background, but I wanted to get a more

14 current look at what was going on there.

15 And I was just not ready to -- and I don't

16 think the mechanics were up and running to file right

17 then.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. And initially, frankly, I didn't want to be a

20 plaintiff. I wanted to be the lawyer. And so I think

21 some of the effort went into are there other people out

22 there affected that might be better suited to be a

23 plaintiff.

24 Q. Can you think of any other reasons?

25 A. Those are probably the main two, I would say.

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(32) Pages 126 - 129
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

13:44:59-13:46:03 Page 130

 1 Q. Okay. Turning back for just a second, can you

 2 recall anything that Rose Winkeler said to you in your

 3 conversations?

 4 A. I'm just basing this on impressions. I don't

 5 hear it in my head, her saying this, but I thought she

 6 mentioned, you know, about Bill being out, and he wouldn't

 7 be available until a certain date thereafter.

 8 I don't recall her saying anything

 9 substantively. I think I informed her what my issue was.

10 I'm not sure she was aware of it, and I may have briefed

11 her on that, you know, just in a few sentences, "I'm

12 having a problem with this." I doubt that she responded

13 one way or the other. I mean, she wouldn't as an

14 attorney, I don't think. But I wanted to put her on

15 notice about my issue.

16 Q. Okay. Can you think of anything else that she

17 would have said to you?

18 A. I just don't recall. You would have to ask her.

19 So . . .

20 Q. If you can take a look at your letter. You say

21 that you were signing "not in my personal capacity

22 unrelated to any government contract"?

23 A. Where is that?

24 Q. Third substantive paragraph of the letter.

25 A. Yes, I see it. Yeah.

13:46:19-13:47:38 Page 131

 1 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that the caveat

 2 was not accepted by Coconino County officials?

 3 A. I don't have any reason to believe -- they don't

 4 have a dog in this fight, you know, so they didn't -- they

 5 didn't care. They just wanted me to sign the darn thing.

 6 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that that

 7 caveat would not be acceptable to officials in State

 8 government?

 9 A. I think if the State forces me to sign that, they

10 could also care less.

11 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that the caveat

12 would not be acceptable to officials in State government?

13 A. I don't have any reason to believe that. I --

14 you know, I don't know. If I became more prominent in my

15 vocal support of boycott, I think it could draw some

16 attention. People can complain. People are very

17 passionate on this issue on all sides, and there's been

18 plenty of attempts to, you know, destroy the livelihood of

19 those who advocate for equal rights of these two peoples.

20 Q. Has anyone ever told you that this caveat was not

21 compliant with the Act?

22 A. I've never been specifically told that.

23 Q. In that letter -- have you ever -- sorry.

24 Have you ever been generally told that --

25 A. Generally told that my personal acts would not

13:48:00-13:48:54 Page 132

 1 comply with the statute? I don't believe I've been told

 2 that.

 3 Q. Or generally told that your caveat that you did

 4 not read the Act to reach you in your personal capacity

 5 would violate the Act?

 6 MS. BRODY: Object to form.

 7 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that.

 8 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

 9 Q. In your letter you also state, "I am also

10 interpreting the term 'affiliate' in the addendum and the

11 law to apply only to formal business relationships." Is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yeah, I put that in there.

14 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that caveat was

15 not accepted by Coconino County officials?

16 A. Again, no, I don't have any reason to believe it

17 wasn't accepted by them. In fact, they did accept it.

18 They paid me. No one objected to my little bit of First

19 Amendment complaint there.

20 Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to believe that the

21 caveat would not be acceptable to officials in State

22 government?

23 A. I mean, I think I've already answered that. But

24 I don't think -- directly or specifically, I don't think

25 they would object; although, it might heighten scrutiny of

13:49:15-13:50:32 Page 133

 1 my activities and whether they bleed over into the

 2 corporate structure since I am my corporation.

 3 Q. Has anyone ever indicated to you that there were

 4 any problems with your 2016 certification?

 5 A. No one's ever told me that.

 6 Q. Turn back to your declaration. If you can look

 7 at paragraph 28. There you state, "On November 14, 2017,

 8 I received a letter from the County regarding the regular,

 9 annual renewal of the contract." Is that correct?

10 A. It likely -- I can't exactly say whether it was

11 the 14th, 13th, 12th or whatever. But, yes, generally

12 that's correct.

13 Q. Did that letter include a proposed one-year

14 renewal of the contract?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did that letter include another certification

17 under the Act?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Prior to receiving that letter, had you discussed

20 the Act with anyone in Coconino County government in the

21 prior six months?

22 A. I'm trying to think of some of the supervisors or

23 not -- no, I don't think I told them about -- I don't

24 think I discussed it with anyone in government.

25 Q. Okay. Do you recall discussing it with anyone

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Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

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Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

13:50:48-13:51:45 Page 134

 1 else?

 2 A. Yes. Some of the people that I already listed

 3 to -- I spelled all the names here. You know, I could

 4 read them out.

 5 Are you talking about in government?

 6 Q. No. Outside of government?

 7 A. Yeah. I talked about my relatives. I talked

 8 about some people in Tucson. I talked about Joe Bader,

 9 Eva Putzova, who's on the city council up there in

10 Flagstaff. You know, those folks.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. I talked about the public defender in Cottonwood,

13 Mike Shaw. People are generally interested in the issue.

14 Q. Okay. Was the certification included in that

15 2017 letter substantially the same as the one you signed

16 in 2016?

17 A. I believe it was. I'm not sure if it was

18 verbatim, but it was -- basically it asked me to do the

19 same thing. So -- certify.

20 Q. Had your PC engaged in any boycotting activity

21 relevant to the Act since your year 2016 signed

22 notification?

23 A. Has my PC been involved in boycott activities

24 since then, did you say?

25 Q. Yes, that was the question.

13:52:03-13:53:18 Page 135

 1 A. I've tried to stay true to the certification, and

 2 so I would -- I would say no. I didn't engage in boycott

 3 activities because I didn't want to lose my contracts or

 4 run afoul to what I said I would do.

 5 Q. Okay. Why did you object to signing the

 6 certification again?

 7 A. Well, in part, because of my trip. I was so very

 8 upset when I saw what was going on in the West Bank. And

 9 you have to realize when you go to an occupied country,

10 you have people with big guns, tanks, occupying every

11 element of Palestinian society, and then slowly gobbling

12 up all their land. There's been massive land alienation,

13 theft of land, there's been bulldozing of homes --

14 Palestinian homes. And it's an overt plan to defeat a

15 two-state solution and take the land and deny the people

16 there of their civil rights. We saw the same thing here

17 in this country, but it was in the 19th century. But this

18 is going on right now, and what's more is we are paying

19 for it. We Americans.

20 And so we're looking at $40 billion over the

21 next 10 years of aid to Israel in terms of military and

22 other things and without even a dime of it being withheld

23 to stop, you know, the -- the colonization efforts. And

24 then you talk to people and 40 percent of the Palestinian

25 males on the West Bank has been in jails or prisons, it's

13:53:45-13:54:54 Page 136

 1 not crime, it's just resistance. It might be rock

 2 throwing, might be demonstrating, it might be -- so that

 3 society has been jammed into smaller and smaller urban

 4 areas, Ramallah, Hebron, various towns. And their civil

 5 rights are almost nonexistent. They don't have a right to

 6 vote. They do in the small enclaves. But 60 percent of

 7 the West Bank is controlled by Israel through force of

 8 might, and there are a hundred-plus settlements --

 9 colonies peppered throughout the West Bank.

10 Those -- 40 percent of the male population

11 of Palestinians that have been in jails or prisons are

12 judged by military tribunals with an over 99 percent

13 conviction rate, where the Israeli settlers are judged by

14 Israeli civilian courts.

15 There are separate roads where Palestinians

16 are not allowed on. There are whole towns where

17 Palestinians cannot enter. And it's just getting worse

18 and worse. So I was profoundly influenced by that.

19 And when it came time to signing another one

20 of these addendums, you know, my position was, "I've had

21 enough. I'm not going to do this anymore." And if Sedona

22 presents me with another certification, I'm going to ask

23 that they be joined as a defendant -- or any of the other

24 municipalities. So that's a long-winded explanation, I

25 guess.

13:55:07-13:56:44 Page 137

 1 Q. Do you understand there to be any difference in

 2 the impact on your First Amendment rights between the 2016

 3 and 2017 certifications?

 4 A. I think they're one and the same. I think my

 5 understanding of the issues has deepened considerably and

 6 my belief in its wrongfulness.

 7 Q. Is the reason that you did not sign the 2017

 8 certification so that you could bring this lawsuit?

 9 A. Yes. And because I just don't believe in it.

10 Q. So this will be hypothetical.

11 Assume for the moment that a final judgment

12 is entered in this action in favor of the State on all of

13 your First Amendment claims, and then assume further that

14 you're presented with a choice between signing a

15 certification or having your contract with the jail

16 district terminated, which would you choose?

17 MS. BRODY: I'm going to object on

18 foundation.

19 THE WITNESS: I -- I mean, as I'm standing

20 here right now, I'd probably say I would terminate it --

21 let it terminate.

22 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

23 Q. Have you had any conversation with members of the

24 Coconino County Board of Supervisors regarding the Act or

25 this lawsuit?

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Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

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Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

13:56:52-14:19:41 Page 138

 1 A. I -- I don't think so. I know most of them well,

 2 but I don't believe I've talked to them at all about the

 3 issue.

 4 Q. Okay. Have you had any conversations with their

 5 staff regarding the Act or this lawsuit?

 6 A. I don't think so.

 7 MR. ROYSDEN: I think we've been going for a

 8 while. Do you want to take a 10-minute break?

 9 (A recess ensued.)

10 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

11 Q. Backing up for just a second. Has your PC ever

12 purchased one?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And then turning to the Arab-Israeli conflict.

15 Do you believe that Israel is a democracy?

16 A. I think its democracy is vastly eroding. And I

17 think it's -- if you occupy another people for 50 years

18 and you don't give them the right to vote -- I'm not so

19 sure they can call themselves democratic with any real --

20 any real sense of the word.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. I think it's a Jewish democracy.

23 Q. And I think you said this earlier. But you

24 believe that Israel has a right to exist?

25 A. Yes, as -- as do we in the United States. It

14:19:57-14:21:12 Page 139

 1 doesn't mean we have a right to engage in, you know,

 2 forcing out our indigenous population and whatnot.

 3 Q. Are you aware that some individuals supporting

 4 the BDS involvement don't believe that Israel has a right

 5 to exist?

 6 A. There may be those individuals.

 7 Q. Do you believe an economic boycott of Israel will

 8 weaken Israel as a state?

 9 A. I think that is the strategy to -- just as with

10 South Africa, that is the only thing that -- since our

11 government will not withhold aid, the strategy has become,

12 as looking at boycotts, to make it less appealing to the

13 Israeli government and population to continue the

14 colonization of the West Bank.

15 Q. Do you believe that an economic boycott of Israel

16 will strengthen the bargaining position of the Palestinian

17 Authority versus -- vis-à-vis Israel?

18 A. Perhaps not. Because I think the Palestinian

19 Authority now is doing the bidding of Israel to -- in

20 terms of security and whatnot. I think it's the general

21 population that it will assist.

22 Q. Okay. Do you believe that Israel is an apartheid

23 state?

24 A. I'm not going to say categorically it's

25 apartheid. I think there are definite features of

14:21:27-14:22:24 Page 140

 1 apartheid that are being employed now, and those are

 2 separate legal systems, use of military tribunals for

 3 Palestinians, separate roads, separate use of water,

 4 discrimination in terms of issuance of buildings permits

 5 in the occupied territories, in occupied portions of

 6 Jerusalem, also the building issues and bulldozing

 7 Palestinian places.

 8 If you look at the UN definition of

 9 "apartheid," it basically says it's one society imposing

10 itself over another society. And I think that is

11 occurring and elements of that are occurring.

12 Q. Okay. Are you aware the Palestinian Authority

13 administers the Gaza Strip and parts of the West Bank?

14 A. I know they've tried to.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. I think recently there was an agreement

17 between -- I believe it was Hamas and the PA, Palestinian

18 Authority, where the Palestinian Authority was going to

19 start taking over. I'm not sure that that's been

20 implemented though.

21 Q. Okay. And are you aware that Mahmoud Abbas is

22 the president of the Palestinian National Authority?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Are you aware that his term ended on

25 January 15th, 2009?

14:22:37-14:23:40 Page 141

 1 A. I'm aware of that it's way overdue for elections.

 2 And, you know, again, I'm no fan of the Palestinian

 3 Authority. I think they're corrupt.

 4 Q. Okay. Do you believe that the Palestinian

 5 Authority is a democracy?

 6 A. Well, I think that they had free and fair

 7 elections the one time they occurred. I think the Carter

 8 Institute certified that they were free and fair at that

 9 time.

10 And unfortunately, there was -- as I recall

11 from a reading of history, that there was -- the advances

12 of the other party, which was Hamas at the time, were

13 negated and it was sort of a -- somewhat of a coup in

14 their parliament.

15 Q. And I think you just said this. But you're aware

16 that the Palestinian National Authority operates as a

17 coalition government between the Palestinian Liberation

18 Organization and Hamas?

19 A. I -- I believe there are some -- there is some

20 linkage. I know there's been attempts to reconcile. They

21 were openly hostile to one another for a long time. I'm

22 not sure what the current status is right now. I know

23 they've tried to reach agreements. And I'm not sure. And

24 I'm even less of a fan of Hamas.

25 Q. And are you aware that Hamas is on the State

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Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

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Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

14:23:54-14:24:44 Page 142

 1 Department list of terrorist organizations?

 2 A. I am, yeah.

 3 Q. Shifting gears a little bit.

 4 So we've already covered some of this. Do

 5 you have a family?

 6 A. Yes.

 7 Q. Are you married?

 8 A. Yes.

 9 Q. Do you have any children?

10 A. Yes. I have one.

11 Q. Okay. Are any of your immediate family members

12 Jewish?

13 A. My son.

14 Q. Okay. Are any of the extended family members --

15 excuse me.

16 Are any of your extended family members

17 Jewish?

18 A. Well, let me explain. I was married before to my

19 son's mother, and we split up when he was about age five.

20 She is Jewish. And as her whole lineage, her -- my former

21 in-laws, who I still love dearly to this day, are very

22 active Jews in Nashville, and now in Florida.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. And her grandparents, I knew them also well.

25 Q. Okay. And if you could take a look at your

14:24:58-14:25:58 Page 143

 1 declaration.

 2 A. Yeah.

 3 Q. In paragraph 7 you say that, "My son was raised

 4 Jewish." Is that correct?

 5 A. Yes.

 6 Q. How old is your son?

 7 A. He's now 26.

 8 Q. And is your son still practicing Judaism?

 9 A. He's -- I don't know. He's somewhat wayward on

10 that. He identifies as, I think, both parts of his

11 lineage, which is also Norwegian. I'm, like, a hundred

12 percent Norweigian background, Lutheran, and his mother of

13 course, Jewish-Russian, but he identifies with both.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. But I think if he were to -- he's certainly

16 viewed by Judaism as being Jewish, coming from a Jewish

17 mother.

18 Q. You discussed this previously. But have you

19 traveled to Israel before?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How many times have you been?

22 A. I've been on two separate occasions.

23 Q. Okay. And when were those trips?

24 A. One was during college in 1977, during the

25 summer. I was there almost the entire summer, mostly on

14:26:17-14:27:33 Page 144

 1 the West Bank. That's where my parents were. And then I

 2 also participated in an archaeological dig, it was in

 3 Israel itself, about 15 miles east of Gaza.

 4 And then the second trip was this last

 5 spring, in March and April of 2017.

 6 Q. I'm sorry. Did you say 15 miles east of Gaza?

 7 A. Apparently, yeah.

 8 Q. And is that in Israel proper?

 9 A. Yes.

10 Q. For your 1977 trip, how did you get there?

11 A. I'm sure I flew, yeah.

12 Q. Do you remember who you flew with?

13 A. I remember flying through Zurich, and -- I think

14 I flew a charter airline to Zurich, and I then I believe

15 it was Swissair after that.

16 Q. And you've already started to cover this. But

17 what did you do while you were in Israel, aside from the

18 activities that you just mentioned, for that 1977 trip?

19 A. In '77, well, I toured all over. You know, I

20 went with my parents various places, met with their

21 friends, you know.

22 They were just outside of Bethlehem, you

23 know, so we would go to Bethlehem a lot, go shopping, go

24 into Jerusalem, toured into -- went up into the Galilee

25 area in Israel itself, went to Tel Aviv, went to the beach

14:27:57-14:29:13 Page 145

 1 in Ashkelon, which is south of Tel Aviv. Traveled all

 2 throughout Palestine to, like, Jericho, the Dead Sea, Ein

 3 Gedi. And then did all the normal things anyone would do:

 4 go to the Western Wall, which is -- you know, some of us

 5 call the Wailing Wall or whatever, and then also the

 6 Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Muslim area on top of the Temple

 7 Mount. I don't know, just all kinds of things.

 8 Q. And what was that archeological dig about?

 9 A. It was -- we were looking at -- there were two

10 phases. We were looking at the evidence of bone disease

11 in Bedouin tribes that were in the area. It was like a

12 burial zone. I don't know how I feel about this now, but

13 we basically dug up a graveyard and we studied the bones.

14 But underneath that was an early Bronze Age city.

15 Q. Then shifting gears here. 2017 trip, how did you

16 get to Israel?

17 A. We flew into Amman, Jordan and met with -- well,

18 that's the answer to your question. So through Amman, and

19 then I flew out of Tel Aviv.

20 Q. Okay. And who did you fly with?

21 A. I think it was Royal Jordanian flying in, and out

22 of Tel Aviv as well.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. And who did you meet with while you were in

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Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

14:29:35-14:30:39 Page 146

 1 Jordan?

 2 A. Met with a journalist who is a friend of my

 3 son's, and her name is Alisa -- and I'm forgetting her

 4 last name right now. But he was -- coincidentally, the

 5 two of them went to high school together and -- but she

 6 became a journalist for Al Jazeera. And she's like a

 7 stringer and would do stories about the Syrian conflict,

 8 but also on the West Bank. And so she sort of briefed us

 9 about stuff that was going on in Jordan and also on the

10 West Bank and in Syria. Pretty fascinating.

11 Q. And what areas did you visit during that 2017

12 trip?

13 A. We were all over, across the border, near

14 Jericho. Came in, took the bus up to Jerusalem. We

15 stayed in Jerusalem for about three days, I would say.

16 Met with various people there. I can go into that later,

17 but these are the places. And from there we went to

18 Ramallah, stayed about three days there. That's on the

19 West Bank, sort of the center of Palestinian activity now.

20 And then from there, we went to a lovely spot called

21 Sebastia. It's an old Arab town, just very picturesque,

22 and we hiked in the area and we met with people there. We

23 talked to a lot of people.

24 From there, we took a bus north, went

25 through the security barrier there and went to Haifa.

14:31:02-14:32:05 Page 147

 1 Spent some time in Haifa. And from there, we went into --

 2 rented a car, went into the Galilee area and stayed at

 3 a -- an Israeli -- it was a nature center, sort of a camp.

 4 And a lot of kids were there too, in and out. So we

 5 rented a little cabin or whatever, and then we went hiking

 6 around the area. We also drove up into the Golan Heights,

 7 which, quite interesting. Saw the security barrier with

 8 Syria, so we could actually see into Syria. And then we

 9 saw into Lebanon, talked with people there too. It was

10 interesting.

11 Came back, dropped the car off in Haifa,

12 took the train down to Tel Aviv, and hung out there for a

13 couple days and, you know, toured around, talked to

14 people, whatnot, along the coast. And then -- I then took

15 a taxi and left after -- I was there probably -- I don't

16 know, I'm thinking 16 days or so, total, including travel

17 time. And then my son stayed on for a couple of months,

18 and he ended up doing some interesting things too.

19 Q. Okay. Did you go to the Gaza Strip at any point?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And I think you said the -- at some point you saw

22 the -- the wall that had recently been constructed?

23 A. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you see it everywhere,

24 yeah.

25 Q. Okay. And while you were there, did you purchase

14:32:26-14:33:23 Page 148

 1 things from any Israeli companies?

 2 A. Oh, of course, yeah. I mean, food, lodging, you

 3 know, all kinds of things, yes. Usually, again, it was

 4 like low level, you know, buy lunch or whatever at a

 5 restaurant or something.

 6 I mean, I wasn't aware of buying anything

 7 from large companies. I guess the rental agency in Haifa.

 8 But they have strict instructions, you can't bring the car

 9 into the occupied territories. So . . .

10 Q. And you mentioned earlier that you started the

11 Oberlin College chapter of the Palestinian human rights

12 campaign?

13 A. Right.

14 Q. So what was involved with that?

15 A. Well, it was just basically that was one of the

16 main organizations active in Palestinian rights in the

17 U.S. at that time.

18 You know, I came back. I was all fired up

19 about the political situation. And this is someone who --

20 you might recognize his name -- but it was James Zogby, he

21 was -- did the Zogby polls and things like that. He's

22 very influential in the Democratic party. But he

23 organized that nationwide.

24 And so I got together a group of people, of

25 like-minded folks, many of us were studying with a certain

14:33:42-14:34:41 Page 149

 1 professor at Oberlin who taught -- I think we took a women

 2 in Islam class, it was pretty interesting. And then he

 3 taught about Judaism too, in Israeli, actually. So we

 4 organized that chapter. And in fact, when I left Oberlin,

 5 Zogby offered me a job in D.C. I think my life would have

 6 gone in a different trajectory if I had taken it, but I

 7 turned it down. So . . .

 8 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with birthright Israeli

 9 trips?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was this trip kind of in lieu of that?

12 A. You mean for my son?

13 Q. Yeah.

14 A. No, it wasn't. Although I urged my son, "Hey,

15 why don't you take one of these trips? It might be free

16 for you, and then you can go and volunteer in the West

17 Bank and plant olive trees or something." I mean, we

18 talked about that.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. You know, in theory I disagree with that unless

21 Palestinians also have the right to go back. And I think

22 there ought to be a Palestinian birthright. I think both

23 people should have that right.

24 Q. And you alluded earlier to conversations that you

25 had during your 2017 trip. Can we circle back to that?

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Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

14:34:56-14:36:12 Page 150

 1 A. Sure, yeah.

 2 Q. So what were those conversations?

 3 A. Well, one of the first people we met with was a

 4 lady named Noga Kadman, K-a-d-m-a-n. Noga is N-o-g-a.

 5 And she had worked for probably one of the premier Israeli

 6 human rights group, a Jewish woman. And that group is

 7 called B'Tselem, that's capital B, apostrophe, capital

 8 T-s-e-l-e-m. And she had written a book, it was about the

 9 ethnic cleansing of Palestine in '48 or so. And it was

10 focused on -- it was very extremely detailed. It was

11 about 400-some-17 Palestinian villages were bulldozed in

12 that year and during the flight of some 700,000 people --

13 Palestinians. And we talked to her about her research.

14 And they were talking about how many of the national parks

15 in Israel had been over places that were rubble from these

16 villages and whatnot.

17 And we talked to her quite a bit about that,

18 but also about the current political situation, hopes for

19 peace, whether she saw any, and, you know, about the

20 two-state solution, whether that was lost cause or not --

21 two states versus one state. Should the Palestinian

22 struggle just turn into a struggle for equal rights in one

23 state or should they still hold out for their separate

24 state? We were just there to listen and learn, so -- and

25 she was very interesting.

14:36:26-14:37:43 Page 151

 1 Q. Okay.

 2 A. We also met with David -- he's a professor --

 3 David -- I think his last name was Eckstein. He was a

 4 cousin of one of my best friends in Flagstaff. And he is

 5 one of the archeology professors at Hebrew Union College,

 6 which is on the -- it's in Jerusalem. And they had us

 7 over to dinner, gave us a tour of -- I learned more about

 8 archeology than I ever wanted. I mean, he just went on ad

 9 nauseam. I mean, it was very fascinating, but just -- he

10 was just so excited about his research.

11 And then we met with his -- I don't think

12 they're married, but his partner of some, like 15 years or

13 something. Had dinner with them. We also talked about

14 the -- you know, any hopes for peace in the region. He,

15 in particular, was super pessimistic about Jerusalem in

16 particular. Apparently now it's something like 40 percent

17 Hasidic, sort of very religious, super conservative

18 Hasidic Jews that, you know, want nothing to do with Arabs

19 and just didn't see any hope for coexistence, and they're

20 expanding. And the secular Jews like them were

21 contracting and now it was just you were left with, you

22 know, one side against the other.

23 Also, he said of note to me is that he

24 didn't see any hope that the settlements would ever be

25 evacuated, just because of the sort of religious Messianic

14:38:00-14:39:18 Page 152

 1 fanaticism that -- that was sort of his conclusion. So we

 2 were left with a great sense of pessimism from both of

 3 those visits.

 4 Then moving on to Ramallah, we met with

 5 people -- it was less organized there, but we just met

 6 with people. And we talked with them, the people that ran

 7 our -- the place we were staying, had long talks with

 8 them. And the thing that struck me is the inability of

 9 Israelis and Palestinians to even talk or to know each

10 other. Israelis are prohibited from going into what they

11 call zone C, which is, you know, the PA-controlled areas.

12 And those Palestinians can't get into Israel. So there's

13 a concerted effort to keep these populations apart. And I

14 really think if there was more contact, that there could

15 be hope of equal rights and equality.

16 But we took -- also took a tour of -- with a

17 person of Hebron. Hebron is further south, and it's an

18 area where there are some, I don't know, few -- couple

19 hundred very religious Zionist settlers who were very

20 militant, lots of them are from Brooklyn. And they have

21 embedded themselves in the center of Hebron and shut down

22 a lot of the place. And we would walk in some of the main

23 streets of Hebron where there's all this commercial

24 activity in the Palestinian area, and they have had to

25 erect these nets above -- because the Jewish settlers are

14:39:33-14:40:48 Page 153

 1 above -- and you can see bottles of urine, excrement

 2 that's thrown down, trash. I saw that with my own eyes.

 3 I can show you -- show you photographs.

 4 And the checkpoints were just amazing.

 5 People just, to go to their own homes in a particular area

 6 near those settlers, had to go -- they couldn't ever have

 7 a guest. They had to present their ID cards, which

 8 Hewlett-Packard is producing, all the biometrics, and go

 9 through those checkpoints.

10 At one point a checkpoint was closed down,

11 we couldn't go through it. So we had to hike around, got

12 to a place where there were three Israeli soldiers that

13 barred our way to go forward. And, you know, my guide was

14 arguing with -- as it turned out, it was an Arab-Israeli

15 soldier. And our guide was giving him a lot grief about,

16 "Why are you doing this," all that. Finally, they let us

17 pass. But they said that we, as Americans, could walk on

18 the paved road, but the Palestinians would have to walk on

19 this rugged path nearby.

20 And so we just all walked on the rugged path

21 and walked by. And then we were able to go into some of

22 the Israeli areas too where our guide said, you know,

23 "Leave us here. Go over there." And we talked to Israeli

24 soldiers, and they were all pretty nice. And, you know,

25 just saw some of the horrific situation there.

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Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

14:41:01-14:41:58 Page 154

 1 And then when you go through the West Bank

 2 you see there's, you know, some hundred settlements and

 3 whole areas that are completely restricted to Palestinians

 4 there. And they're cut off from their fields, from their

 5 economic well-being. It's a bad situation. I don't think

 6 our country should support that.

 7 I'm droning on here. Just tell me, is there

 8 anything in particular you want to hear?

 9 Q. No. But that's quite useful.

10 Was your trip or any parts of it sponsored

11 or affiliated with any groups?

12 A. No. It was just all our own. I'm thinking

13 unlike our politicians who get their way completely paid,

14 usually by Israel. So . . .

15 Q. So I think I can shift to hopefully the final

16 topic.

17 Is Kathy Brody here as your counsel in this

18 matter?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When did you retain Kathy or her organization as

21 your --

22 A. I think I sent the retainer -- it was probably, I

23 don't know, three months ago or so.

24 Q. Who else is counsel for you in this matter?

25 A. Well, they're all listed here. Brian -- Brian is

14:42:13-14:43:10 Page 155

 1 probably my main attorney, Brian Hauss, Vera Eidelman, Ben

 2 Wizner, also Darrell Hill from Arizona ACLU.

 3 Q. Okay.

 4 A. I've got five attorneys.

 5 Q. Do you have any other attorneys other than those

 6 listed on the --

 7 A. No.

 8 Q. Okay. Does each of those counsel represent you

 9 directly?

10 A. As far as I know.

11 Q. And do they represent you and your PC?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. Do you have a written agreement with --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When did you enter into that agreement?

16 A. As I said, I think it was -- I don't know, maybe

17 three months ago.

18 Q. And do you have any other agreements?

19 A. Just those two agreements, both in my personal

20 capacity and as corporate capacity. They're separate

21 agreements though.

22 Q. Okay. Do you have an agreement with the ACLU as

23 to the fees you are responsible for in connection with

24 their representation of you in this matter?

25 A. I don't have to pay any attorneys' fees. I

14:43:23-14:44:21 Page 156

 1 believe I'm on the hook for certain costs. But I'd have

 2 to review to be sure. I mean, I'm not paying them by the

 3 hour or anything like that.

 4 Q. Okay. Can you think of any cost in particular

 5 that you're responsible for?

 6 A. I'm just remembering off the top of my head, but

 7 I thought it might have been costs, you know, such as

 8 deposition costs or something like that. I don't know if

 9 I'm paying your bill now or not. I don't think so.

10 Q. When you were retained by the ACLU, did you have

11 any conversations regarding the total amount it would

12 cost -- Scratch that.

13 Have you received or you seen any bills in

14 this matter from the ACLU?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Have you paid any monies to any of your attorneys

17 related to this matter?

18 A. No.

19 Q. In the event that the Court does not award

20 plaintiffs attorneys' fees in this case, are you or anyone

21 on your behalf responsible for paying any money to your

22 counsel?

23 A. I don't believe so.

24 Q. In any of your -- of those two agreements, is

25 there any financial consequence if you withdraw as a

14:44:58-14:45:48 Page 157

 1 plaintiff in this matter?

 2 A. I don't recall. I don't think so, but I just

 3 don't recall.

 4 Q. Okay. In terms of ACLU's representation of you

 5 in this matter, are you being paid anything?

 6 A. No.

 7 Q. And do you have any expectation of a benefit?

 8 A. Yes, that I will not have to sign the

 9 certification.

10 Q. Any other expectation?

11 A. No.

12 MR. ENSIGN: Okay. I think that may be it.

13 MS. BRODY: I have a few questions if that's

14 okay.

15 MR. ENSIGN: Sure.

16 MS. BRODY: And I apologize for my condition

17 right now, so I'm going to try to ask the best questions

18 that I can, a few things before we close up.

19 (An off-the-record discussion ensued.)

20

21 EXAMINATION

22 BY MS. BRODY: 

23 Q. Mik, you testified that the issue of the Israeli

24 occupation of Palestine has been important to you

25 throughout your life. Is that right?

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Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

14:46:01-14:46:47 Page 158

 1 A. Well, I would say at least from 1977, yeah.

 2 That's -- I was 19 then, so yes, the majority of my life.

 3 Q. And you said that you were all fired up when you

 4 came back in 1977?

 5 A. Yes.

 6 Q. And that you were so fired up that you started

 7 the Oberlin College chapter of the Palestine human rights

 8 campaign?

 9 A. That's right.

10 Q. And since that time, has it been important for

11 you to keep informed about the Israeli occupation of

12 Palestine?

13 A. Yes. I've always kept up on -- that's been one

14 of my issues that I keep up on, yeah.

15 Q. And I think you had testified earlier that you

16 regularly review available sources regarding that issue?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that would information in the media?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Other information on the Internet?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And that's also including information that's

23 published by groups that call for boycotts of Israel and

24 Israeli companies that assist with the occupation?

25 A. Yes.

14:47:08-14:48:12 Page 159

 1 Q. Why did you sign under protest when you were

 2 presented with that Coconino County jail contract in 2016?

 3 A. Well, number one, the part of the statute that

 4 really gets my goat -- well, all of it does. I think it's

 5 an illegal political litmus test in the handing out of

 6 government contracts that's clearly unconstitutional. I

 7 think of the O'Hare case. And then, you know, boycotts

 8 have been protected speech.

 9 And when we talk about conduct versus

10 speech, boycotts are expressive conduct. And so

11 regardless of whether you split hairs on, well, does this

12 say you have to do this or not, but what it does, it

13 forces me to give up expressive conduct -- expressive

14 speech and conduct. So . . .

15 Q. Were you afraid that you might lose your contract

16 if you didn't sign that certification?

17 A. Well, I would have lost the contract. I mean,

18 there's no doubt about that unless I refused to sign and

19 filed and got some protection in a preliminary injunction,

20 which I do not have now. So . . .

21 Q. I believe you testified, Mik, that you have been

22 boycotting companies that support the Israeli occupation

23 of Palestine at least since 2017 after you returned

24 from -- from your trip to Israel?

25 A. Certainly.

14:48:25-14:49:28 Page 160

 1 Q. Excuse me, 2017, when you returned from your trip

 2 in Israel?

 3 A. Yeah, certainly then.

 4 Q. And that is in response to calls to boycott from

 5 Jewish Voice for Peace, ELCA, and other organizations?

 6 A. Yes.

 7 Q. Would you characterize your -- your boycott and

 8 your conduct as refusing to deal and taking other actions

 9 intended to limit commercial relations with companies

10 doing business in territories controlled by Israel?

11 MR. ENSIGN: Object to foundation.

12 THE WITNESS: Yes.

13 BY MS. BRODY: 

14 Q. Since you signed that certification in late 2016,

15 Mik, has that certification by your professional

16 corporation affected your personal activities in any way?

17 A. I think it's chilled it, yes. I've been

18 reluctant to speak out on the issue before I filed this

19 lawsuit. And so it did impact me in that way, my personal

20 actions, yes.

21 Q. When you signed the certification on behalf of

22 your professional corporation, did you expect your

23 personal speech to be chilled in that way?

24 A. I didn't think it would be, but it really ended

25 up being.

14:49:42-14:50:59 Page 161

 1 Q. How is that?

 2 A. Well, I mean, I could give you an example. I

 3 think -- I think I mentioned before the Anti-Defamation

 4 meeting at the synagogue in Sedona and how we were talking

 5 about speech and how to talk to people, et cetera. I

 6 mean, it was a stimulating conversation. Someone brought

 7 up the issue of BDS and whatnot, so we talked about that a

 8 bit. Things got a bit heated when I said that it's

 9 important not to conflate BDS with anti-Semitism. And I

10 said that I'm very much against the occupation, I'm

11 against apartheid. Things got pretty -- you could just

12 feel the tension level go up in the room, you know, and I

13 got some support for that too. But what I realized was I

14 wanted to talk about out Arizona state law and how it

15 chills speech, and we're talking about how to talk to

16 people together, and I realized I better not even mention

17 this.

18 Q. So you held yourself back from talking?

19 A. I absolutely held myself back talking about that

20 and just said there was concerted effort among the most

21 right-wingers of pro-Israeli right-wingers to limit speech

22 and even to imprison speech in Congress.

23 Q. You also just talked extensively about your trip

24 to Israel with your son in spring of 2017. And so there's

25 no need to go through that in detail again. But from your

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(40) Pages 158 - 161
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

14:51:19-14:52:37 Page 162

 1 testimony -- I guess I can ask you. What was -- what were

 2 your main takeaways from that trip?

 3 A. My main takeaway is that this is a horrendous

 4 human rights situation here, and I do not want to be

 5 supporting. I want to work actively against it. I want

 6 to lend my support to opposing what's going on there,

 7 whether it's through my professional means with my talents

 8 as a lawyer, my -- individually. I mean, I came back

 9 feeling like the United States should not be involved in

10 perpetuating continued repression of a whole other society

11 and that we had to take steps in that direction.

12 Q. Has the time -- since you signed in 2016 under

13 protest, has your view changed about your ability to

14 separate your personal political activities, including

15 your boycott, from your PC's activities?

16 A. Yes. Because I see them -- the more I had to

17 live under this restriction, I see it's very difficult to

18 separate the personal from the professional, like just

19 going on a business trip. You know, if I'm paying for

20 lodging and -- do I have to look at Airbnb? Do I have to

21 do Airbnb? If it's in part a private trip but also a

22 business trip, if I pay half and half, can I discriminate

23 on the other half and not this half or what? It sets up

24 an impossible situation essentially. And I can see that

25 it's harder and harder now as I need more equipment. My

14:52:52-14:53:52 Page 163

 1 equipment is getting old, some of it, you know, the

 2 printer, the desktop. I'm faced with choices that I

 3 didn't have to make before.

 4 Q. So do you think it's fair to say that your speech

 5 and associational rights were chilled more than you

 6 expected when you signed under protest?

 7 A. Yes.

 8 MR. ENSIGN: Objection. Form.

 9 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.

10 MR. ENSIGN: Foundation.

11 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

12 BY MS. BRODY: 

13 Q. I want -- I have an exhibit, Mik, that I'd like

14 to have marked here.

15 MS. BRODY: And I think it will be 4, Jerry.

16 (An off-the-record discussion ensued.)

17 (Deposition Exhibit 4 was marked for

18 identification.)

19 BY MS. BRODY: 

20 Q. So this is three-page exhibit that has just been

21 marked by the court reporter. Can you take a look at

22 that, Mik?

23 A. Yeah, I'm looking at it.

24 Q. And do you recognize this?

25 A. Yeah.

14:54:05-14:55:08 Page 164

 1 Q. What is it?

 2 A. It's my correspondence with both the jail

 3 commander, Lieutenant Figueroa, and also the county

 4 attorney, Bill Ring, and I believe you were copied in,

 5 Kathy Brody, my lawyer.

 6 Q. Okay. And if you look at the very bottom of

 7 page 2, this document says on December 5th, 2017 at 07:40

 8 Mikkel Jordahl, and then it has -- and it has an email

 9 address. I think you testified earlier that you had a

10 Yahoo account. Is mikkeljordahl@yahoo.com your email

11 address?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And then if you look to the top of page 3, it

14 says, "Hi Matt and Bill. My apologies for delaying in

15 getting the contract addendum back to you for the annual

16 renewal of the Inmate Civil Rights Advising contract. I'm

17 concerned about the Israel boycott prohibition (which

18 takes up about a third of the addendum ) and am looking

19 into its constitutionality. I realize this has little to

20 do with the jail or county and is a condition imposed by

21 the state. Please bear with me while I look into it.

22 Thanks! Mik Jordahl."

23 Did you send that email on December 5th?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And who is Matt?

14:55:20-14:56:25 Page 165

 1 A. Matt is Matt Figueroa, the jail commander.

 2 Q. Okay. And then who is Bill?

 3 A. Bill is Bill Ring, the county attorney.

 4 Q. Okay. And then on Friday -- I'm looking toward

 5 the bottom -- middle of page 2 -- there's an email that

 6 says "On Friday, December 8, 2017, 9:39 a.m. MST, Figueroa

 7 Matthew" -- and then it has an email address -- "wrote:

 8 Thanks, Mik. Because we don't have a renewed contract at

 9 this point, we don't have an open purchase order to pay

10 your current invoices. The last PO has expired. We have

11 to renew the contract in order to create a PO that we pay

12 from the entire year. Call me if you have questions.

13 Matt." And then there's what looks like an email

14 signature of Matthew M. Figueroa, Commander, Detention

15 Services.

16 Do you recall getting that email from

17 Commander Figueroa on December 8th?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And is Commander Figueroa your main point of

20 contact for the contract -- the contracted jail services

21 that you provide?

22 A. Well, for contract renewal issues, yes. And he's

23 the highest level in the jail. He's the director of the

24 jail, essentially. But I interface with the inmate

25 relations officer, who is another individual at a lower

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(41) Pages 162 - 165
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

14:56:41-14:57:45 Page 166

 1 level, and he funnels me the inmate complaints or

 2 whatever.

 3 Q. Okay. And going -- moving up a little bit

 4 farther on the page, there is a "From" "Sent" "To" "CC"

 5 "Subject" area. And it appears that it is from Mik

 6 Jordahl, you, and your Yahoo account again, sent on

 7 Friday, December 8th, 2017 at 10:20 a.m. to Matt Figueroa,

 8 cc Ring, comma, William, and Kathy Brody. And it says

 9 "Subject: Re: Jail civil rights advisor addendum issue."

10 And the email here says, "I understand Matt.

11 As you probably know, I have filed a federal lawsuit to

12 get a judicial determination on the Israel boycott

13 language in the jail contract addendum. I understand that

14 that clause has little to do with the county or the jail

15 district and is something imposed by state law (which I

16 think is unfair to you folks). I've also filed an

17 injunction request to prevent termination or non renewal

18 of the contract. So I'd ask your patience until we

19 receive a ruling on that issue."

20 New paragraph, "I will plan on continuing to

21 advise inmates as the requests come through as usual. If

22 you must stop or delay payments until we have a ruling,

23 that's fine, but I'll continue services unless you tell me

24 otherwise. My ACLU attorney Kathy Brody put in a call to

25 Bill Ring late afternoon yesterday but apparently she

14:57:58-14:58:47 Page 167

 1 didn't get through and instead left a message. I hope

 2 that they can communicate. I'm copying her here."

 3 New paragraph, "Matt, can you communicate

 4 this to Ms. Livingston? I see she just sent me an email.

 5 She has been patient in waiting for my signed addendum.

 6 Thanks! Mik."

 7 Who is Ms. Livingston?

 8 A. She was the person -- she had also sent me an

 9 email, I think it was that same day, saying, "Hey, we need

10 your addendum."

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. And she's an administrative person, either in the

13 county -- in the jail district or the county, I forget

14 which one.

15 Q. And do you remember sending that email on

16 December 8th?

17 A. I don't remember the exact date, but yes, I

18 remember sending it.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. I'm sure it would have been that date.

21 Q. Okay. And then if you kind of flip back, going

22 forward in time to page 1, there is another email dated

23 Friday, December 8, 2017 at 10:29 MST. And it looks like

24 it's from Matt Figueroa, again to you. It would have been

25 just 10 minutes later or so.

14:58:58-15:00:00 Page 168

 1 And he says, "Sounds good Mik. I will

 2 update Kathleen. As far as I know, all our County

 3 contracts have that boiler plate language. I was not

 4 aware of the lawsuit but thanks for the heads up. Our

 5 plan is to renew but we cannot pay invoices at this point

 6 because we do not have a signed and approved contract to

 7 create a purchase order off of. We will pay the invoices

 8 once we have an agreed on, signed and BOS approved

 9 contract, but hope you will continue to provide services

10 at this point. Matt."

11 Do you remember getting that email?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Then just moving slightly up, it looks like just

14 a little later that morning, maybe even five minutes, you

15 sent an email to -- again to Matt Figueroa, copying

16 William Ring and me, Kathy Brody.

17 And you say to Matthew Figueroa, "Absolutely

18 will continue providing the services Matt! Payments can

19 wait. I've loved providing the services and don't want to

20 jeopardize that. The suit does not name the jail as a

21 defendant but rather the State AG and the county as it

22 must to get a determination. Bill can advise you on that

23 stuff. But Matt, you and I can continue communicating on

24 any jail advising issues as they arise or inmate requests

25 as normal. Sincerely, Mik?"

15:00:10-15:01:10 Page 169

 1 Do you remember saying that to Commander

 2 Figueroa?

 3 A. I remember saying it, yes.

 4 Q. And then finally, it looks like Commander

 5 Figueroa responds to you a little later that morning

 6 saying, "No problem Mik. Thank you."

 7 Do you recall getting that email as well?

 8 A. Yes.

 9 Q. And, Mik, this -- this email,

10 mikkeljordahl@yahoo.com, is that the email that you use

11 for your communications in the context of your

12 professional corporation?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And do you store those emails in your regular

15 course of business?

16 A. Yeah. I mean, I just keep them on there.

17 Q. Do you store, in particular, emails about your

18 contract with the Coconino County jail?

19 A. I don't think I have separately. This one I

20 have. I've saved it separately and put it, you know, in a

21 file.

22 Q. Okay. And -- sorry, lost my train of thought

23 here.

24 Do you consider yourself the custodian of

25 these emails for your PC?

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(42) Pages 166 - 169
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

15:01:28-15:02:20 Page 170

 1 A. Yes.

 2 Q. These emails at -- using the email address

 3 mikkeljordahl@yahoo.com, you have those under your custody

 4 and control right now?

 5 A. Yes.

 6 Q. And so, Mik, following up on Exhibit 4, which we

 7 just walked through -- and thank you for your patience --

 8 do you believe that the Coconino County Jail District is

 9 forcing you to sign the certification that you will not

10 engage in a boycott of Israel?

11 MR. ENSIGN: Object. Foundation and form.

12 THE WITNESS: I think they are forcing me to

13 not get -- if I want to get paid, I have to sign it.

14 BY MS. BRODY: 

15 Q. Are you going to sign the certification?

16 A. No.

17 Q. If the City of Sedona asked you to sign the

18 certification, would you sign it?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And if the City of Cottonwood asked to you sign,

21 would you do that?

22 MR. ENSIGN: Object. Foundation.

23 THE WITNESS: No, I wouldn't sign.

24 BY MS. BRODY: 

25 Q. And if the Town of Clarkdale asked you to sign

15:02:35-15:03:42 Page 171

 1 the certification in order to continue your contract,

 2 would you do that?

 3 MR. ENSIGN: Object. Foundation.

 4 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't sign -- neither

 5 Cottonwood nor Clarkdale requires some annual

 6 certification, so it hasn't come up.

 7 BY MS. BRODY: 

 8 Q. But you understand, Mik, that the Coconino County

 9 Jail District is not going to pay you until you sign this?

10 MR. ENSIGN: Object. Foundation.

11 THE WITNESS: I think it's pretty clear from

12 the emails that they will not pay me until I sign or get

13 some sort of judicial determination that I don't need to

14 sign.

15 BY MS. BRODY: 

16 Q. Can we just turn to Exhibit 2 really quickly?

17 And I'd like to turn you, Mik, to Exhibit 1

18 of Exhibit 2.

19 A. Okay.

20 Q. And I just want to point you, Mik, to the last

21 paragraph that is right above your signature line. Can

22 you read that please?

23 A. "This Certification is hereby adopted as an

24 integral and substantive part of the Agreement, and

25 irrevocably supplements the terms thereof. Any violation

15:03:59-15:05:06 Page 172

 1 of this Certification by the Independent Contractor shall

 2 constitute an event of material breach of the Agreement."

 3 Q. What does that mean to you?

 4 A. Well, it means that if I don't agree to sign,

 5 then I'm in breach of the agreement, I can be terminated

 6 at any time.

 7 Q. And what if you sign the certification and then

 8 did engage in a boycott of Israel?

 9 MR. ENSIGN: Object. Form.

10 THE WITNESS: Then I would be violating the

11 certification that I've signed, and I'd be violating

12 Arizona state law.

13 BY MS. BRODY: 

14 Q. Okay. Shifting gears a little bit, Mik.

15 When -- when you're making consumer -- when

16 you're making decisions to purchase goods or services in

17 response to the calls for boycott from JVP, ELCA, and

18 others, do you believe you're making a political statement

19 with those decision to purchase or not purchase?

20 A. Of course.

21 MR. ENSIGN: Object. Form.

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.

23 MS. BRODY: What's the basis, Drew?

24 MR. ENSIGN: Vague and also misleads.

25 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry?

15:05:14-15:06:08 Page 173

 1 MR. ENSIGN: The question is vague, and it

 2 also misstates what you said earlier.

 3 BY MS. BRODY: 

 4 Q. You testified earlier, Mik, that you make

 5 purchasing decisions in your personal capacity in response

 6 to calls for boycotts by JVP, ELCA, and others, correct?

 7 A. Yes.

 8 Q. And those purchasing decisions included, for

 9 instance, that in your personal capacity you would not

10 purchase HP products, correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And also in your personal capacity, you would not

13 use Airbnb?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And also in your personal capacity you would not

16 purchase SodaStream?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And are those -- do you believe that you're

19 making a political statement by making those decisions?

20 A. Certainly.

21 Q. In what way?

22 A. Well, it's -- boycotts are peaceful acts of

23 protest and based on political beliefs.

24 Q. Do you believe that your decisions not to

25 purchase those goods is an expression of speech on your

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Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

15:06:31-15:07:45 Page 174

 1 part?

 2 A. Absolutely.

 3 Q. Regarding the certification that you signed under

 4 protest in 2016, Mik, do you read that to prohibit your

 5 professional corporation to -- to prohibit its supporting

 6 Jewish Voice for Peace with money?

 7 A. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. It may.

 8 Q. Okay. Do you believe that the certification

 9 prohibits or chills your providing Jewish Voice for Peace

10 with clerical assistance?

11 A. Yes. I think that that would be a direct

12 violation.

13 Q. Why -- why is that?

14 A. Because I would be supporting a boycott --

15 boycott as it is defined under the statute.

16 Q. Has your signing that certification under protest

17 in 2016 chilled the ability of your professional

18 corporation to associate with JVP?

19 A. I believe so, yes.

20 Q. And just to follow up very quickly on some of the

21 questions towards the end of Mr. Ensign's examination,

22 your agreements with the lawyers in this case, you have a

23 personal -- an agreement in your personal capacity and a

24 separate agreement in your professional capacity, correct?

25 A. Yes.

15:07:55-15:08:32 Page 175

 1 Q. Have you paid any -- any costs so far in this

 2 lawsuit?

 3 A. No. Court costs or --

 4 Q. Any costs at all?

 5 A. No.

 6 Q. Did I pay for your lunch today?

 7 A. Yes, you did. Not you, but your entity. Not

 8 personally.

 9 Q. And so you didn't pay the filing fees in this

10 case, right?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And have you ever gotten a bill from the ACLU of

13 Arizona?

14 A. No, and I don't expect one.

15 Q. Have you ever gotten a bill from the ACLU lawyers

16 who are in the New York office?

17 A. No.

18 MS. BRODY: I think that's all I have, guys.

19 MR. ENSIGN: Could we go off the record for

20 one second?

21 (An off-the-record discussion ensued.)

22 MR. ENSIGN: Can we go back on? I think

23 just one question.

24 THE WITNESS: Yeah.

25

15:08:59-15:10:08 Page 176

 1 FURTHER EXAMINATION

 2 BY MR. ENSIGN: 

 3 Q. I think when Ms. Brody was examining you just a

 4 second earlier, there was a question about your -- your

 5 boycott was in response JVP, ELCA, and others?

 6 A. Uh-huh.

 7 Q. Who are the others?

 8 A. Well, I think in general the BDS movement is one.

 9 Again, my focus is more limited than their maximum boycott

10 level. There are the other Protestant denominations that

11 I mentioned, several of which have adopted boycott

12 positions. And so I'm in response to that call as well.

13 Those calls.

14 Q. Okay. And any others?

15 A. Well, groups like Amnesty International. There

16 are a variety of human rights groups that have called for

17 the same. But I know Amnesty International is one in

18 particular. I believe Human Rights Watch as well.

19 Q. Okay. And any others?

20 A. If I had my computer, I could tell you -- I do

21 have my computer. But I'm not -- it's a variety of

22 things, but those are the main ones.

23 Q. You know, if you want, we can provide you a

24 computer.

25 A. That's okay. I mean, it's fine. I'll leave my

15:10:15-15:10:45 Page 177

 1 answer at that.

 2 Q. Okay. And so you don't recall any others right

 3 now?

 4 A. Not right off the bat -- oh, yeah, Palestine

 5 Human Rights Campaign is another. I think Palestinian

 6 Legal is one. There are -- yeah, so . . .

 7 Q. Okay. Could you indulge us and just check on

 8 your computer and see any others there would be?

 9 A. I mean, I'd have to go on the Internet to -- to

10 research that.

11 MS. BRODY: I'm going to object to that,

12 guys.

13 MR. ROYSDEN: On what ground? It was your

14 question.

15 MS. BRODY: It was my question?

16 MR. ROYSDEN: You said "and others," and

17 we're asking what your question --

18 MS. BRODY: He testified earlier and gave a

19 list --

20 MR. ROYSDEN: He didn't give his complete

21 testimony --

22 MS. BRODY: -- before you came in the

23 room --

24 MR. ROYSDEN: He just told us under oath

25 that he's going to give us --

Min-U-Script® Coash & Coash, Inc.

602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com

(44) Pages 174 - 177
Jordahl vs. Brnovich 

3:17-cv-08263-PCT-DJH

Mikkel Jordahl 30(b)(6) of Mikkel (Mik) Jordahl, PC

January 8, 2018

15:11:02-15:11:21 Page 178

 1 MS. BRODY: He testified to a whole --

 2 MR. ROYSDEN: He testified about these

 3 before?

 4 MS. BRODY: Yeah, he did.

 5 MR. ROYSDEN: You just told me that he can't

 6 do it without his computer. I want the complete list

 7 right now.

 8 THE WITNESS: I don't have a complete list.

 9 Why don't we just leave it at that is the

10 groups that I'm responding to, the ones that I mentioned,

11 and we'll leave it at that.

12 MR. ROYSDEN: And that's your testimony

13 under oath?

14 THE WITNESS: That's my testimony.

15 MS. ROYSDEN: Under oath?

16 THE WITNESS: I know I'm under oath.

17 MR. ROYSDEN: So the answer is yes?

18 THE WITNESS: Yes.

19 MR. ENSIGN: I think that concludes things.

20 (The deposition was concluded at 3:11 p.m.)

21 _____________________________ 22 MIKKEL (MIK) JORDAHL

23

24

25

Page 179

 1 STATE OF ARIZONA )

 2 COUNTY OF MARICOPA )

 3 BE IT KNOWN the foregoing deposition was

 4 taken by me pursuant to stipulation of counsel; that I was

 5 then and there a Certified Reporter of the State of

 6 Arizona, and by virtue thereof authorized to administer an

 7 oath; that the witness before testifying was duly sworn by

 8 me to testify to the whole truth; notice was provided that

 9 the transcript was available for signature by the

10 deponent; that the questions propounded by counsel and the

11 answers of the witness thereto were taken down by me in

12 shorthand and thereafter transcribed into typewriting

13 under my direction; that the foregoing pages are a full,

14 true, and accurate transcript of all proceedings and

15 testimony had and adduced upon the taking of said

16 deposition, all to the best of my skill and ability.

17 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am in no way related to

18 nor employed by any parties hereto nor am I in any way

19 interested in the outcome hereof.

20 DATED at Phoenix, Arizona, this 10th day of

21 January, 2018.

22

23 _______________________________

 Gerard T. Coash, RMR

24 Certified Reporter #50503

25

Min-U-Script® Coash & Coash, Inc.

602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com

(45) Pages 178 - 179
Exhibit B 

Exhibit C 
1/18/2018 nimbus screenshot app

chrome-extension://bpconcjcammlapcogcnnelfmaeghhagj/edit.html 1/1

screenshot-bdsmovement.net-2018-01-18-16-00-20-382

https://bdsmovement.net/get-involved/what-to-boycott

18.01.2018
Exhibit D 
1/18/2018 US scholars' group votes in favor of academic boycott of Israel

http://www.jpost.com/printarticle.aspx?id=335178 1/3

January 18, 2018 Thursday 2 Shevat 5778

16:03 IST

Select Language ▼

Israel boycott 370.(Photo by: REUTERS)

US scholars' group votes in favor of academic boycott of

Israel

By MAYA

SHWAYDER AND

JTA

12/16/2013

American Studies Association endorses its national council’s call for a boycott of Israeli universities.

NEW YORK – The 5,000-member American Studies Association (ASA), which describes itself as

“the nation’s oldest and largest association devoted to the interdisciplinary study of American

culture and history,” announced on Monday that it had endorsed and would participate in a

boycott of Israeli universities and academic institutions.

It is the second educational group in the US to adopt the boycott. The Association for Asian

American Studies did so in April. Another academic group, the American Association of

University Professors, recently reiterated its opposition.

In all, 1,252 members of the ASA participated in the vote on whether or not to endorse the

boycott. Approximately 66 percent voted yes, 30% voted no and 3% abstained. The voting began

on December 4 and ended on Sunday.

The membership-wide canvass was unprecedented. It was undertaken in part at the behest of

boycott opponents who said at the ASA’s annual conference last month in Washington that the

matter was too sensitive to leave to the group’s 20-member national council, which had

unanimously endorsed a boycott.

“The National Council engaged and addressed questions and concerns of the membership

throughout the process,” the ASA statement said.

“During the open discussion at the recent convention, members asked us to draft a resolution

that was relevant to the ASA in particular and so the Council’s final resolution acknowledged that

the US plays a significant role in enabling the Israeli occupation of Palestine.”

The final resolution, which applies to the ASA as an organization, is not binding on its members.
1/18/2018 US scholars' group votes in favor of academic boycott of Israel

http://www.jpost.com/printarticle.aspx?id=335178 2/3

It also targets institutions, not individuals.

In Monday’s announcement, the ASA said it would still invite Israeli and Palestinian academics to

its 2014 national meeting in Los Angeles.

Jewish groups in the US reacted strongly and immediately to the announcement.

The boycott was a “shameful, morally bankrupt and intellectually dishonest attack on academic

freedom,” said Abraham H. Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), in a

statement.

“Targeting Israeli institutions solely because they are in Israel – the only democratic country in the

Middle East, where scholarship and debate are encouraged and flourish – is based on a myopic

and fundamentally distorted perspective of Israel and the conflict and is manifestly unjust,”

Foxman went on. “We commend those members of the ASA who boldly spoke out and voted

against this shameful resolution.”

Kenneth Stern, the American Jewish Committee’s director for issues of anti-Semitism and

extremism, called it “blatant discrimination against Israelis.”

“Academic freedom is based on the principle that human civilization benefits from the free flow of

ideas and knowledge,” Stern said in an AJC statement. “This resolution – ghettoizing knowledge

simply because it is tied to Israeli academic institutions – violates the core principles of the

academy.”

Ronald S. Lauder, president of the World Jewish Congress, had similar words for the ASA ,

saying that it was actions like this that caused “many Americans [to] dismiss the academy as

deeply biased and disconnected with reality.”

On the other side of the spectrum, the California-based Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) issued a

statement supporting the boycott, saying it represented a “significant milestone in the growth of

the BDS (boycott, divestment and sanctions) movement in the United States.”

“With its endorsement, the members of the ASA have voted to hold Israeli institutions

accountable for their participation in human rights violations, bringing into sharp focus Israeli

policies that severely limit the academic freedom of Palestinians within the occupied Palestinian

territory and inside Israel,” JVP said.

“While Jewish Voice for Peace takes no position on academic boycotts, we do not believe that

boycotts to pressure Israel to abide by international law are inherently anti-Semitic.”

The group Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) also gave its “unqualified endorsement” of the

boycott, saying the resolution would “move us one small step closer to a world of democracy,

freedom, and justice.”

The ADL included the two groups on the list it compiled this year of the 10 most anti-Semitic

organizations in the United States.
1/18/2018 US scholars' group votes in favor of academic boycott of Israel

http://www.jpost.com/printarticle.aspx?id=335178 3/3

JPost.com: Arab-Israeli Conflict | Israel News | Diaspora | Middle East | Opinion | Premium | Blogs | Not Just News |

Edition Francaise | Green Israel

About Us | Advertise with Us | Subscribe | RSS

Copyright © 2014 Jpost Inc. All rights reserved •

Terms of Use • Privacy Policy
Exhibit E 
 	



		


	





		
	
 	



 
 		
	



   		

 
 	
 
  
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Exhibit F 
CRS INSIGHT

Taylor Force Act: Palestinian TerrorismRelated Payments and U.S. Aid

December 12, 2017 (IN10761)

|

Related Authors

Jim Zanotti

Jeremy M. Sharp

|

Jim Zanotti, Specialist in Middle Eastern Affairs (jzanotti@crs.loc.gov, 7-1441)

Jeremy M. Sharp, Specialist in Middle Eastern Affairs (jsharp@crs.loc.gov, 7-8687)

Some Members of Congress have increased their scrutiny of the Palestinian practice of

providing payments to some Palestinians (and/or their families) who have been imprisoned for

or accused of terrorism by Israel. Critics have asserted that because money is fungible, any aid

that directly benefits the Palestinian Authority (PA) could indirectly support such payments.

Congress may consider legislation—most of the bills are known as the Taylor Force Act—that

could supersede existing provisions on the subject in annual appropriations legislation. The

impact that the legislation could have on overarching U.S. priorities on Israeli-Palestinian

matters is unclear.

Palestinian Payments for "Martyrs" and Prisoners

According to a 2016 article, the Palestinian practice of compensating families who lost a

member (combatant or civilian) in connection with Israeli-Palestinian violence dates back to the

1960s. Palestinian payments on behalf of prisoners or decedents in their current form apparently

"became standardized during the second intifada [uprising] of 2000 to 2005." Various PA laws

and decrees since 2004 have established parameters for payments. Some lawmakers and the

Trump Administration have condemned the practice, focusing particular criticism on an apparent

tiered structure that provides higher levels of compensation for prisoners who receive longer
sentences.

Existing Law and Aid Reductions

Since FY2015, annual appropriations legislation has provided for "dollar-for-dollar" reduction

of Economic Support Fund (ESF) aid for the PA in relation to terrorism-related payments.

Section 7041(l)(3) of the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2017 (P.L. 115-31), reduces ESF

for the PA by the amount the Palestinians provide as "payments for acts of terrorism by

individuals who are imprisoned after being fairly tried and convicted for acts of terrorism and

by individuals who died committing acts of terrorism during the previous calendar year."

In practice, ESF aid for the West Bank and Gaza includes

Budget support for the PA that is provided directly to PA creditors (namely, Israeli utility

companies and private hospitals) to defray PA debts.

Project assistance for various purposes including humanitarian aid, and improving

infrastructure and other social services. This assistance is administered by non-governmental

organizations and overseen by the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID).

To date, executive branch reporting to Congress regarding reductions made to ESF aid for the

PA in relation to these payments has been classified. In July 2017, former U.S. Ambassador to

Israel Daniel Shapiro testified at a congressional hearing that, beginning in FY2015, the Obama

Administration reduced "the overall [annual] assistance program from about $400 million to

about $260 million."

The Taylor Force Act
Congressional scrutiny of Palestinian terrorism-related payments increased in the wake of the

March 2016 death of Taylor Force, a U.S. citizen and war veteran who, while studying abroad

as a private civilian, was fatally stabbed by a Palestinian attacker. The incident was part of a

larger wave of Israeli-Palestinian violence that periodically resurfaces. Two bills are known as

the Taylor Force Act (H.R. 1164 and S. 1697). Another contains similar provisions (S. 474).

The Senate Foreign Relations Committee (SFRC) reported S. 1697 in modified form (the

"SFRC version") on September 6, 2017. As congressional deliberations have proceeded, Trump

Administration officials have called upon Palestinian leaders to cease payments on behalf of

Palestinians who have committed terrorist acts. Earlier versions of the Taylor Force Act were

introduced in the 114th Congress.

Aid Conditions

In contrast to the "dollar-for-dollar" reduction to ESF in existing legislation, the different

versions of the bill would either fully or partially suspend ESF unless and until the PA meets

certain conditions. In their original versions, H.R. 1164 and S. 474 would condition all ESF aid

for the West Bank and Gaza—both USAID-administered project assistance and PA budget

support—on an end to specified terrorism-related payments. The SFRC version of S. 1697, per

Section 4, would suspend means of assistance that "directly benefit" the PA unless and until the

Secretary of State certifies to Congress that the PA, among other things

has terminated payments for acts of terrorism against Israeli citizens and United States

citizens to any individual, after being fairly tried, who has been imprisoned for such acts

of terrorism and to any individual who died committing such acts of terrorism, including

to a family member of such individuals; and

has revoked any law, decree, regulation, or document authorizing or implementing a

system of compensation for imprisoned individuals that uses the sentence or period of

incarceration of an individual to determine the level of compensation paid.

These conditions would apparently apply to all budget support to PA creditors (except for the

East Jerusalem Hospital Network). It is unclear to what extent some project assistance funds

might also be construed to "directly benefit" the PA.

Additionally, under Section 5 of the SFRC version, all ESF for the West Bank and Gaza

(whether or not construed to "directly benefit" the PA) would be subject to a continuous

certification (every 180 days) that the PA is "taking credible and verifiable steps" to end

violence perpetrated by those under its jurisdiction against U.S. and Israeli citizens.

The SFRC version also includes an amendment (Section 6) that would keep any withheld ESF

funding for the West Bank and Gaza in a Palestinian Authority Accountability Fund (PAAF)

for up to a year in order to allow the Palestinians time to conform their practices to the bill's

requirements. If this does not happen, funds held in the PAAF would be reallocated away from

the West Bank and Gaza.

As reported, S. 1697 would not permit the executive branch to waive its provisions on national

security grounds, despite some discussion of a possible waiver during a July 2017 committee

hearing. It would also (per Section 7) apparently require the executive branch to switch from

classified to unclassified annual reporting (though a classified annex would be permitted) on

payments made by the PA—including estimated amounts and related legal developments.
Incorporation into FY2018 Appropriations Legislation

On September 7, the Senate Appropriations Committee reported a version of the Department of

State, Foreign Operations, and Related Programs Appropriations Act, 2018 (S. 1780) that

included most of the SFRC version of S. 1697, but with a substantive change that appears to

have gained the bill additional support. Per the change, the continuous certification requirement

from Section 5 of the SFRC version [imported to S. 1780 as Section 7041(k)(3)(B)] would only

apply to types of ESF deemed to "directly benefit" the PA.

House Version

On December 5, the House passed a revised version of H.R. 1164 (the "House version") as

stand-alone legislation that is similar to the corresponding provisions in the Senate FY2018

appropriations bill (S. 1780). The House version would apply from FY2018 to FY2023, and

specifically exempts the following additional types of aid from limitation: (1) assistance for

wastewater projects and (2) activities providing vaccinations to children. Also, under the House

version of H.R. 1164, funds withheld would remain available for up to two years (versus one

under S. 1780) to allow the Palestinians time to conform their practices to the bill's

requirements, before being reallocated elsewhere.

Israeli and Palestinian Perspectives

The modifications reflected in the SFRC version of S. 1697 (and later incorporated into S.

1780) appear to have garnered general acquiescence from some key Israeli security officials

and analysts who were reportedly concerned that more stringent conditions on project

assistance could endanger West Bank stability.

Facing domestic political challenges, Palestinian leaders have publicly denounced S. 1697, and

it is unclear whether passage of the bill would enhance the PA's willingness to suspend

payments or otherwise change how they are made in order to maintain U.S. budget support.

According to PA financial statements from calendar years 2013 to 2016, U.S. budget support

has averaged around 13% of the PA's annual external support and 3.5% of annual PA spending

(calculated on a commitment basis) over that time. Clearance revenues (tax and customs

amounts due to the PA that Israel collects on its behalf and transfers to it per a 1994 agreement)

over the same period averaged around 50% of annual PA spending.
Exhibit G 
 	

	





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