1 

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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + +

WORK GROUP ON ROCKY FLATS

+ + + + +

THURSDAY

NOVEMBER 3, 2011

+ + + + +

 The Work Group convened via 

teleconference at 2:00 p.m. Eastern Daylight 

Time, Mark Griffon, Chairman, presiding.

PRESENT:

MARK GRIFFON, Chairman

PHILLIP SCHOFIELD, Member
2 

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ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

ISAF AL-NABULSI, DOE

TERRIE BARRIE, ANWAG

JOE FITZGERALD, SC&A

MARY GIRARDO

ADAM JONES, Senator Mark Udall's Office

JEFF KOTSCH, DOL

JENNY LIN, HHS

ARJUN MAKHIJANI, SC&A

JAMES NETON, NIOSH DCAS

CHARLES SAUNDERS

MUTTY SHARFI, NIOSH ORAU

GREG SMITH

JAMES TURNER, Beryllium Support Group

BRANT ULSH, NIOSH DCAS
3 

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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

Welcome and roll call 3 

Discussion of DOL Bulletin 11-08 8 

Status of Site Profile issues 29

Former petitioner concern - Site Profile 36

Action items/path forward 38
4 

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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 2:00 p.m.

3 MR. KATZ: So, this is the 

4 Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, 

5 Rocky Flats Work Group and it's convening 

6 after quite a long time in passive mode.

7 So we will begin with a roll call. 

8 And since we're speaking of a specific site 

9 for all the Agency-related personnel please 

10 speak to conflict of interest as well. And we 

11 will begin with Board Members, with the Chair.

12 (Roll Call.)

13 MR. KATZ: Okay. Well, Mark, I 

14 think you should just carry on. We don't have 

15 any other Work Group Members on the line but--

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. We don't 

17 have a Work Group but I think it would be 

18 important, you know, for the record, to start 

19 this discussion, especially about the 

20 bulletin. 

21 MR. KATZ: Absolutely, right. 
5 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And then 

2 outline--

3 MR. KATZ: Oh, and let me just --

4 oh yes, last mention, the agenda for the 

5 meeting is on the NIOSH website. You can find 

6 it under the Board Section. And the Board 

7 Section with Work Groups meeting today, this 

8 Work Group meeting today and it should be 

9 there.

10 And there's also a matrix of 

11 issues that were Site Profile, in effect, 

12 issues that were addressed up till when the 

13 SEC action was taken. That matrix is updated 

14 and that got to us quite late but it may show 

15 on the website now. I've sent it in there and 

16 they post, you know, periodically during the 

17 day. So you may be able to find that and 

18 follow along with that when we get to that 

19 portion of the agenda. 

20 Okay, Mark, sorry about that.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's all 
6 

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1 right. 

2 MR. MAKHIJANI: Hi. This is 

3 Arjun. I've just joined.

4 MR. KATZ: Welcome, Arjun. And no 

5 conflict, right?

6 MR. MAKHIJANI: No conflict.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. This is 

8 Mark Griffon and I think for the Court 

9 Reporter's sake on these kind of phone calls, 

10 we should make sure we identify ourselves as 

11 we speak. 

12 As Ted said, the agenda: it's a 

13 fairly brief agenda today. But I just wanted 

14 to get back to not only the Site Profile 

15 issues but also now that we have this last 

16 bulletin from Labor on implementing the Class, 

17 I think it's important that we at least, you 

18 know, get a report and have an understanding 

19 of what that means. And so that's the first 

20 item is that discussion.

21 And then looking back at the 
7 

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1 matrix, I will say that I think that was the 

2 last matrix I could find but also one of the 

3 actions coming out of this meeting may be for 

4 Joe Fitzgerald to recover the first matrix. I 

5 think I found a date: 12/15/05.

6 SC&A submitted a report with an 

7 initial matrix that was a Site Profile matrix 

8 and then we evolved into SEC issues. So this 

9 last one I'm not sure, you know, if -- I don't 

10 want to miss some that early on we said were 

11 Site Profile issues and therefore not relevant 

12 to the SEC discussion. So anyway we that may 

13 be one of the action items from this meeting. 

14 But if we could start, I think 

15 it'd be useful to -- I don't know if, Jeff, if 

16 you're willing to give us an overview of this 

17 last bulletin that came out so some of us can 

18 digest and understand what it means. Could 

19 you do that for us?

20 MR. KOTSCH: Yes. It's been a 

21 while so let me just read through this --
8 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You weren't 

2 expected to be called on? I didn't put your 

3 name on the agenda.

4 MR. KOTSCH: Yes. I just was 

5 reminded that we had this call today.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

7 MR. KOTSCH: Basically this 

8 Bulletin has to do with, the Bulletin 11-08 

9 has to do with the use of the Ruttenber 

10 database as far as, you know, evidence to 

11 basically implement the Class at Rocky Flats.

12 And just looking through it, 

13 obviously if the conditions in the other 

14 bulletins are met, you know, concerning the 

15 250 days and the building and things, this 

16 one basically supplements that by adding if 

17 there's information contained in the database, 

18 with respect to neutron dose of 100 millirem 

19 or more in any particular year. That 

20 basically fulfills the criterion of, you know, 

21 whether there was neutron exposure, you know, 
9 

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1 which is one of the basic criteria of the 

2 Class. 

3 And I'm trying to see, I'm just 

4 trying to remember if there was one other 

5 thing in here or not.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think it's 

7 the building listed too, right?

8 MR. KOTSCH: Yes. Yes. Let me 

9 see. I'm trying to remember back how this 

10 thing played out as far as buildings go. 

11 Because we had a number of other bulletins 

12 that --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. It shows 

14 any buildings that matches one of the 

15 locations identified in Bulletin 08-01 and 

16 Circular 08-03, they'll use that as 

17 confirmation that the person could have been 

18 exposed to neutrons, basically.

19 MR. KOTSCH: Right. Okay, so --

20 COURT REPORTER: Excuse me, who is 

21 this speaking? This is the Court Reporter.
10

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, that was 

2 Mark Griffon. I'm sorry, I violated my own 

3 rule.

4 COURT REPORTER: Thank you.

5 MR. KOTSCH: Right. Yes. This is 

6 Jeff Kotsch here. 

7 Yes. So it uses information from 

8 the database as to both the building with it 

9 matches against the other criteria and a 

10 neutron value if it's greater than 100 

11 millirem in any particular year. Then those 

12 would be used to fulfill those other criteria 

13 that's within, you know, implementation of the 

14 Class.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. So this 

16 is Mark Griffon. 

17 I think the first question I have 

18 is on the neutron, it says the field in the 

19 database is called neu_recpen, neutron 

20 something penetrating, I assume. But it says, 

21 you know, that you only include them if it 
11

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1 goes above 100 millirem in any one year. And 

2 I understand the basis of the 100 millirem, 

3 the question is what's the basis of this 

4 number generated by the Ruttenber research? 

5 Because if it's derived from the very same 

6 data that we said we could not use for dose 

7 reconstruction, I have some problems with this 

8 approach.

9 MR. KOTSCH: Yes. And I think 

10 it's been a while and I'm not familiar with 

11 all the background of those. Obviously, they 

12 just liked the Neutron Dose Reconstruction 

13 Project, you know, imputed doses from 

14 obviously from Rocky Flats basically raw data 

15 or dosimetry data. And this was our 

16 understanding after talking to Margaret 

17 Ruttenber, of at least which value would be 

18 perhaps representative of a neutron dose for 

19 any particular individual.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Mark 

21 Griffon again. 
12

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1 I mean, do you see the obvious 

2 dilemma I have here? How do we trust the 100 

3 millirem value if it's derived from the very 

4 data that we've said we can't use?

5 In other words if you take the 

6 case of a non-listed cancer, someone has a 

7 non-listed cancer from '52 through '66, I 

8 assume NIOSH is not going to calculate neutron 

9 doses. We basically said we can't calculate 

10 neutron doses during that time period. But on 

11 the other hand, in this case we're using, you 

12 know, the neutron doses to make a 

13 determination if -- you know, estimated values 

14 to make a determination, rather than saying 

15 anyone identified as potential neutron 

16 exposure.

17 MR. KOTSCH: Again, we were just 

18 applying this. This is just, you know, one of 

19 the tools that we use to place individuals in 

20 Classes, or into these two Classes essentially 

21 and, you know, -- what do I want to say? It's 
13

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1 just trying to fulfill the, you know, the one 

2 criterion which we've established as being, 

3 you know, 100 or greater millirem for any 

4 particular year. So we were just trying to 

5 quantitatively, you know, use a number from 

6 this.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. And I 

8 guess I'm questioning the ability to use 

9 quantitative data when it's based on the very 

10 data that we've challenged in the SEC as not 

11 being useful or usable. 

12 MR. KOTSCH: I mean, I understand 

13 what you're saying. You know, this is just 

14 the way the Bulletin was written. I 

15 understand where you're coming from. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Okay. 

17 Mark Griffon, again. 

18 I just think -- well, it surprised 

19 me a bit after two years that this is where it 

20 came down. 

21 But do others have thoughts on 
14

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1 this? I know SC&A looked at this a little bit 

2 or --

3 MR. MAKHIJANI: Yes. Mark this is 

4 Arjun. 

5 Actually, I think the initial 

6 Bulletin of the Department of Labor did not 

7 have a dose threshold with it when the SEC 

8 first went into effect in 2007. And then a 

9 subsequent Bulletin in 2008 amended that and 

10 added 100-millirem threshold to all the other 

11 criteria: buildings, NDRP and so on. 

12 And the thing that surprised me in 

13 that was in that Bulletin from 2008 was it 

14 said that if in any year -- the dose 

15 reconstruction said neutron dose not -- I 

16 don't have my computer in front of me. I'm 

17 not at home. But it said that if a dose 

18 reconstruction shows 100 millirem or more 

19 neutron dose in any year, then they would be 

20 in the Class. 

21 So I think the 100 millirem got 
15

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1 carried over from that amendment, probably. 

2 But I couldn't figure out where that amendment 

3 came from or what the rationale for using the 

4 dose-reconstructed figure was in an SEC for 

5 the same thing when we said, you know, you've 

6 extended what we said, or the Board has said 

7 you don't have the data to do neutron/photon 

8 ratios and so on for this period. And then 

9 there's a fresh, sort of a bright line 

10 threshold of 100 millirem for the same thing.

11 MR. KOTSCH: Well this is Jeff 

12 Kotsch. 

13 And somebody will have to remind 

14 me, I thought the definition of the Class was 

15 monitored or should have been monitored? 

16 DR. ULSH: Yes. This is Brant 

17 Ulsh. 

18 I can perhaps answer a couple of 

19 the questions that are being discussed. 

20 First of all, what the Ruttenber 

21 number how it was arrived upon. Basically if 
16

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1 I recall correctly, I think there's a field in 

2 there called total recorded penetrating, tot3 rec-pen, or something like that. And the way 

4 it was split up into neutron and photon was by 

5 job-category-based rules of thumb.

6 I don't remember what the ratios 

7 were but it was some ratio that was applied to 

8 split that number into neutron and photon 

9 dose. So that's where that number comes from 

10 in the Ruttenber database. 

11 Now in terms of the genesis of the 

12 100-millirem number, that is a result of the 

13 interpretation of the phrase, should have been 

14 monitored. You know, the Class definition 

15 is, was or should have been monitored for 

16 neutron. And the corollary onto that 

17 definition is kind of, by today's standards. 

18 And that's where that 100 millirem in any year 

19 comes from.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And Brant, this 

21 is Mark Griffon again. 
17

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1 Brant, can you refresh my memory 

2 on the -- that is the correct description of 

3 the monitored, should have been monitored, you 

4 know, sort of under current standards.

5 DR. ULSH: Okay.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Under current 

7 standards the 100-millirem threshold is 

8 derived how? I thought it was based on total 

9 penetrating actually?

10 DR. NETON: No. No. Well, this 

11 is Jim Neton.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

13 DR. NETON: I haven't worked with 

14 the 10 CFR 835 for a while but originally --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Me neither.

16 DR. NETON: -- those were 

17 independent source terms. Neutron, internal, 

18 external, they were all independent source 

19 terms.

20 MR. MAKHIJANI: Jim, are we 

21 applying -- this is Arjun. 
18

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1 Are we applying the 100 millirem 

2 like at Y-12 thorium? You said you can't 

3 reconstruct dose for Y-12 thorium. Is there 

4 100-millirem threshold per organ for internal 

5 dose, and what data are used for that?

6 DR. NETON: Y-12, I think we just 

7 removed the should have been monitored. I 

8 don't know they had that in there. And 

9 really, it was Labor's determination as to 

10 what should have been monitored means. I 

11 mean, that's in the definition but it was 100 

12 millirem for that particular source term. If 

13 you take 100 millirem per internal dose, it 

14 would have been 100 millirem internal exposure 

15 not combined with external. 

16 Again, I have not worked with 10 

17 CFR 835 for some time, but the way it was 

18 interpreted by the contractors at least was 

19 that the 100-millirem monitored threshold 

20 applied strictly to the internal dose. 

21 Now it could be a combination of 
19

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1 nuclides that would have to add up to 100 

2 millirem, but you would not add the external 

3 to that.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I agree with 

5 the non-external and internal. But I thought 

6 the external was the limit. So it could be 

7 gamma neutron, you know --

8 DR. NETON: My recollection was 

9 that neutron was a separate source term.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Really. I 

11 don't remember it that way, but it's been a 

12 while for me, as well.

13 DR. NETON: I wouldn't swear that 

14 is true but I recall in dealing with neutrons 

15 at another facility that I had worked that we 

16 were treating it and it was -- I believe it 

17 was correct as a separate source term. But 

18 you know things could have changed in the last 

19 -- it's been a while.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Can somebody 

21 check that while we're on the call? That 
20

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1 should be an easy thing to resolve.

2 DR. NETON: I'm not sure --

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Okay.

4 DR. NETON: -- about certain 

5 regulations.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well I don't 

7 know. This is Mark Griffon again. 

8 I'm not sure, you know, where to 

9 move this. My concern is that, again, trying 

10 to use that threshold value from -- which is 

11 at least in part derived by the total recorded 

12 dose. I believe Brandt is correct. But then 

13 how that's fractioned out, I'm not -- that was 

14 by job category but then the job categories --

15 well, I think they made some assumptions on 

16 the neutron/photon split for different job 

17 categories. Is that correct, Brant?

18 DR. ULSH: Yes, that is correct.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So that split 

20 would still be derived from the NDRP research, 

21 I believe?
21

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1 DR. ULSH: Well, I don't know. I 

2 guess we should be explicit when we're talking 

3 about that. The job categories -- sorry, the 

4 splits were recommended by Roger Falk to the 

5 Ruttenber team. Roger was concurrently 

6 working on the NDRP but as you know at the 

7 time of the Ruttenber study, the NDRP was not 

8 finished. So yes, I mean, the source is the 

9 same. 

10 MR. MAKHIJANI: This is Arjun.

11 Also in the 1950s, you know, we 

12 discussed -- this is from memory now, most 

13 people like in the 700 building were not 

14 monitored for neutrons, at least in a part of 

15 the 1950s, up to '57, I think. And in all 

16 those cases the attributed doses, now this 

17 goes beyond the Ruttenber database. The 

18 attributed doses would be from neutron to 

19 photon ratios in that case, by building, which 

20 was done in the NDRP, but it's still the same 

21 thing. I mean, the dose wouldn't be 
22

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1 attributed for a non-SEC cancer. 

2 And also the SEC said that -- I 

3 mean, I'm very confused as to how you can do 

4 two different things for the same dose. In 

5 one case say we're not going to attribute it 

6 because we can't calculate it. The other 

7 case, use a 100-millirem threshold because it 

8 does go back to 2008. 

9 As I read the Circular, the 

10 amendment came out of a discussion with NIOSH. 

11 At least that's what the Circular says. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. And I 

13 don't know who's on the line for NIOSH, but 

14 you might want to look at 835-402, Section A. 

15 You know, I still stand by the way 

16 I read this is it says, it should be monitored 

17 if they have an effective dose equivalent to 

18 the whole body of .1 rem. That's just for 

19 external radiation; that doesn't say, you 

20 know, by source or anything like that.

21 DR. NETON: Right. I think that 
23

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1 is true but I recall there was guidance -- I 

2 recall -- this is Jim Neton. I recall and 

3 again, this was years ago --

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

5 DR. NETON: -- there was guidance 

6 that broke that out. But again you could be 

7 totally right. I don't know. I guess I 

8 shouldn't comment anymore because my 

9 information is somewhat dated. But I do agree 

10 that it says for external in the regulation, 

11 but there may be further guidance in that as 

12 to source terms.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, obviously 

14 we -- this is Mark Griffon, again. I'm sorry.

15 Obviously, I don't think we can 

16 resolve anything today. What I offer is that 

17 I want to bring this back to the Board in my 

18 Work Group Report at the next full Board 

19 meeting. And maybe NIOSH and SC&A can just be 

20 prepared to answer some of these questions a 

21 little further. You know, especially the one 
24

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1 on the threshold amount but also the way that 

2 Ruttenber value -- I think Brant described it 

3 pretty well, but maybe just make sure of how 

4 that value is derived and what the different 

5 fields. I think it is total recorded versus --

6 total recorded penetrating versus neutron 

7 recorded penetrating. But I would just ask if 

8 you could be prepared for maybe a little, some 

9 questions from the full Board. 

10 But I want to bring the issue to 

11 the full Board of, you know, whether -- if 

12 there's any concerns from the Board as far as 

13 this threshold quantity. And in part, I will 

14 say this is one of our early SEC rulings and 

15 maybe, you know, the monitor should have been 

16 monitored. We've struggled with this on some 

17 of these issues. So maybe in part, it's our -

18 - the way we defined this was a problem.

19 DR. NETON: Mark, this is Jim. 

20 I think the central issue really 

21 doesn't seem to be whether -- I mean, there is 
25

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1 an issue as to whether it's neutrons or 

2 combined or not. But it really seems to me 

3 that your central issue is any dose that one 

4 would impute might be questioned, and that's a 

5 different issue that we don't really have any 

6 stake in. I mean --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I know. 

8 Right. Right. Right.

9 DR. NETON: Whether it's a 100 

10 millirem combined or not I think is probably 

11 not going to address your central concern, is 

12 my point.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. This is 

14 Mark again. 

15 That is probably true, yes. If 

16 there was some middle ground, I would be 

17 interested, you know, in that, possibly. 

18 And I don't even know, you know, 

19 I'm sure that Labor looked at the full 

20 Ruttenber database, but I don't know how they 

21 laid it out. If they identified people that 
26

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1 had potential neutron exposure, you know, is 

2 there a 90 percent of them that fall under 

3 this 100 millirem thing or is there -- you 

4 know, I don't have a sense of what impact it 

5 would have as far as inclusion or exclusion. 

6 But, you know, I think when we're trying to 

7 use that line to distinguish, I've got 

8 concerns on that because of the underlying 

9 data. So I guess we'll leave it at that 

10 unless SC&A, Joe or Arjun, do you have 

11 anything to add?

12 MR. FITZGERALD: On that issue, I 

13 don't. Certainly, I think those are the two 

14 issues.

15 MR. MAKHIJANI: No. No I don't 

16 have any desire to --

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I mean 

18 I'll just describe the issue and, you know, 

19 Jim Neton and Brant, you know, certainly at 

20 the full Board discussion, I want you to --

21 you know, if I mischaracterize anything, 
27

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1 certainly be there prepared to discuss this. 

2 But I think I'd just rather bring it back to 

3 the full Board and see, you know, what if 

4 anything -- how we want to weigh in.

5 DR. ULSH: So the issues you want 

6 us to be prepared to talk about, Mark, are 10 

7 CFR 835 and whether it's total external dose 

8 or whether it's neutrons that are supposed to 

9 be 100 millirem a year, that kind of an issue, 

10 and then also the issue of how the Ruttenber 

11 team partitioned the total penetrating dose 

12 into neutron and gamma. Is that correct?

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's correct. 

14 That's the two fundamental ones I can think 

15 of, yes. 

16 DR. ULSH: All right.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean I can't 

18 anticipate what other questions the Board 

19 Members might have, but yes.

20 MR. FITZGERALD: Joe Fitzgerald.

21 Mark, you just mentioned something 
28

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1 that I think we had kicked around a little 

2 bit. We really don't have a good feel for 

3 what the implication of applying any threshold 

4 is to the database in terms of what impact 

5 that would have in terms of workers included 

6 or excluded.

7 I'm not sure how hard that would 

8 be just to give the Board some sense of how 

9 significant a 100-millirem threshold is. I 

10 certainly don't have any feel for what that 

11 would do.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Perhaps, Jeff, 

13 you know, I don't know if you can be prepared 

14 to answer that question. I don't know who 

15 that question could go to.

16 MR. FITZGERALD: I'm just guessing 

17 that, you know, that might be a question from 

18 the Board. You know, how significant is that, 

19 I mean quite apart from the conceptual issue 

20 is okay, you know, what impact would that 

21 have. I think Jim's quite right. Certainly 
29

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1 the issue is not so much what the particular 

2 threshold is; any threshold's going to have 

3 the same issue. But I'm not sure what the 

4 impact would be.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I agree. 

6 Jeff, is that something -- this is Mark 

7 Griffon. 

8 Jeff, is that something you could 

9 be prepared to address if called on at the 

10 meeting?

11 MR. KOTSCH: Yes, we can look into 

12 it.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. At least 

14 generally numbers, you know. Okay. Is there 

15 anything else on that issue?

16 All right. Having heard nothing, 

17 I think we'll move on. And two items really 

18 remaining and the one is the existing issues 

19 on the Site Profile. And I did circulate a 

20 matrix, and as I said in the introduction, it 

21 was an early -- or it was the last version of 
30

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1 the matrix that I could find. But I also 

2 noticed that, even when you look down the 

3 numbering, it starts with number two and it 

4 goes like two, four, eight, something like 

5 that. So I don't know if we combined, I do 

6 have sort of a memory that we combined some 

7 issues and folded them into one broader issue. 

8 But I'm not sure that I'm ready to try to 

9 make a distinction of the remaining Site 

10 Profile issues on that matrix today. 

11 I would ask at least that SC&A go 

12 back and try to pull out the original. Joe, I 

13 mean, you should probably have this somewhere. 

14 The date I find is December 15, 2005 that you 

15 submitted your Site Profile Review Report to 

16 the Board. So that predated the SEC 

17 qualification and the SEC discussion.

18 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. This is Joe 

19 Fitzgerald.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But I think we 

21 started from that matrix.
31

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1 MR. FITZGERALD: Right. I think 

2 that would probably be very useful. This is, 

3 as I recall, a very dynamic situation with the 

4 matrices and I think we went through probably 

5 nine or ten. So I think the first order of 

6 business is to try to go back and at least go 

7 back to the original and sort of make sure 

8 that we've captured all the Site Profile 

9 issues as well as what may have been left or 

10 determined to be a Site Profile from the later 

11 SEC list, and just make sure we have a 

12 complete treatment of that.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. That 

14 sounds like the best path forward right now is 

15 to use the first one and look at the last one. 

16 And if I can task SC&A with modifying that 

17 matrix to bring back to us with the remaining 

18 Site Profile matrix issues, I think that would 

19 be the best path forward. And the next 

20 meeting --

21 MR. KATZ: Mark?
32

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

2 MR. KATZ: It's Ted. I was just 

3 thinking, if you just go from the first to the 

4 last, though, you may miss issues that got 

5 closed. So I think Joe will want to look and 

6 see if he can find records on what might have 

7 been closed as well.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: This is Joe.

9 Ted, you're right. I think this 

10 is going to be a bit of an archeological dig. 

11 And I will go through transcripts as well 

12 because I think things were moving fairly 

13 fast. And I think just ascertaining what got 

14 closed, what got pushed from SEC to Site 

15 Profile, what may have been left behind as a 

16 Site Profile in the beginning. I mean, I 

17 think all of the above would be necessary to 

18 come up with an updated list. 

19 MR. MAKHIJANI: This is Arjun. 

20 I think there are also issues that 

21 came up during the SEC discussion where we 
33

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1 said, that issue is resolved for SEC purposes 

2 but it's a Site Profile issue. And I'm not 

3 sure that all of the issues that came up 

4 during that hectic period in the first half of 

5 2007 are in the original. So I think Joe's 

6 plan to go through the transcripts is a good 

7 plan because we need really to develop a new 

8 matrix starting with the old one and saying 

9 which issues are closed and which new issues 

10 came up and so on.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

12 MR. MAKHIJANI: That's what I 

13 would suggest. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: This is Mark 

15 Griffon again. 

16 That's fine. I just thought that 

17 the last matrix, at least the last one that we 

18 find, you know, I did look through and a lot 

19 of them say, this issue closed. 

20 I don't usually see the 

21 terminology this issue closed, but remains a 
34

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1 Site Profile issue. So that's a valid point. 

2 I don't know, but it may happen, I mean, I 

3 was thinking the in-between ones, I tended to 

4 carry these matrices through but I may have 

5 inadvertently dropped Site Profile issues 

6 along the way since we were focused on the 

7 SEC, so --

8 MR. MAKHIJANI: Yes. It was 

9 moving awfully fast, Mark, and I don't know 

10 whether Joe was doing that or Ron or me, but I 

11 think we were really focused on which issues 

12 were open for the SEC or closed for the SEC. 

13 But I might be mistaken.

14 MR. FITZGERALD: This is Joe. 

15 I think you're right. I think the 

16 last four or five months it was SEC-focused in 

17 order to deliver something to the Board. And 

18 so certainly, we need to go back and just 

19 make sure -- QA the record and just make sure 

20 nothing slipped through. But I agree with 

21 you, Mark. I mean, a lot of these look like 
35

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1 they were closed out without an issue being --

2 a Site Profile issue. So I think the 

3 transcripts might help us make sure that 

4 nothing got parked as a Site Profile issue in 

5 the discussion.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. And what 

7 I'll do, I think tasking SC&A to do that and, 

8 you know, I'll just keep track of that with 

9 you, Joe. And when it makes sense to schedule 

10 a face-to-face Work Group, I think that should 

11 be our next goal is a face-to-face Work Group 

12 to go through that matrix. But I think that 

13 might take a little time for you to sort 

14 through that. 

15 In addition, I've had some 

16 additional information from the petitioner and 

17 there's -- I summarized them down to -- I 

18 guess I get them down to about nine issues in 

19 addition to what hadn't been put on the table 

20 before that I think we should add to the 

21 matrix. And some of them are more significant 
36

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1 than others but I think -- and I have a 

2 document that Terrie Barrie actually provided 

3 us, and I have it in a Word document so I can 

4 forward that to everyone but also forward it 

5 to Joe for inclusion in the modified matrix, 

6 if that makes sense.

7 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. And what we 

8 would do is just pretty standard practice. 

9 We'll do a first draft and make sure that we 

10 circulate this to the Work Group and NIOSH -- 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

12 MR. FITZGERALD: -- and elicit 

13 any input, validation so that everybody's on 

14 the same page by the time we go to issue it.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

16 Absolutely, I certainly want, you know, Brant 

17 will probably have to look back at some of the 

18 old matrices too and try to remember what we 

19 closed and didn't close and things like that 

20 so that makes sense to circulate a draft 

21 first. And I will forward these issues. You 
37

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1 know, several of them are building-specific 

2 issues but there are some broader issues such 

3 as thorium on the list that Terrie Barrie 

4 provided. So I will circulate the document to 

5 everyone and ask Joe to add it onto the 

6 matrix. And you can identify them as 

7 petitioner issues.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. As 

9 petitioner-originated. We actually do have --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

11 MR. FITZGERALD: -- a category for 

12 that in the matrix.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Right. 

14 All right. I think that's as far as we can go 

15 with this today. I just wanted mainly to have 

16 this call to get a path forward on this and 

17 make sure we keep moving. So just for Terrie 

18 Barrie and others in the public that are on 

19 the phone, others from the site, you know, 

20 we'll have this on the agenda at the next 

21 Board meeting. 
38

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1 As far as the Bulletin goes, I 

2 will raise this question and ask for input 

3 from the Board on it. So we certainly will 

4 have some dialogue about that. And then we 

5 will keep you informed on the next scheduled 

6 meeting where we'll get more into the meat of 

7 the matrix and these additional Site Profile 

8 issues. 

9 We don't normally do formal public 

10 comments at the Work Group meetings, but I 

11 would offer any comments from the petitioners 

12 on what we went over today. 

13 Anyone have any comments or we'll 

14 certainly have time at the main Board meeting 

15 if you want to make --

16 MS. BARRIE: Mark, this is Terrie 

17 Barrie. 

18 And first, I just want to thank 

19 everyone for holding this meeting and 

20 progressing with the issues with the Rocky 

21 Flats facility. 
39

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1 I would just like to emphasize 

2 that it's been four or five years now since 

3 these issues have been kind of put by the side 

4 and I realize everyone is busy. But there's 

5 people whose claims are affected by this and I 

6 would encourage a swift but thorough 

7 investigation to all of these issues. And 

8 again, I thank everyone. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Thank you, 

10 Terrie. And we appreciate your continued 

11 involvement with this and appreciate your 

12 raising issues that we hadn't thought of. And 

13 thanks for your effort.

14 MS. BARRIE: It's for the Rocky 

15 Flats workers. Thank you.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Anyone else?

17 MR. SAUNDERS: This is Charles 

18 Saunders. 

19 You made a mistake, I think. I'm 

20 not Jerry Saunders. I am Charles Saunders and 

21 I'd appreciate if that's corrected, please.
40

This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Rocky Flats Work Group, 

has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally identifiable 

information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, however, has not been reviewed and 

certified by the Chair of the Rocky Flats Work Group for accuracy at this time. The reader should 

be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, sure. 

2 Thank you. Thank you. 

3 And if that's it I think we can 

4 close for today. 

5 We have those actions, and I'll 

6 work closely with Ted Katz to keep this Work 

7 Group moving and schedule our one face-to-face 

8 where we can get into the specifics of the 

9 remaining issues. 

10 So anything else before I close? 

11 Board Members? NIOSH, Ted, anything?

12 Okay. Meeting is adjourned. 

13 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

14 matter went off the record at 2:39 p.m.)